From tomhudson at execpc.com Sun Aug 1 02:02:20 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:40 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's In-Reply-To: <004401c4777a$462127f0$0500fea9@game> References: <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040728121126.009b9530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10407281922.ZM28583@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4107FCFD.6030205@mdrconsult.com> <16647.65371.706000.557188@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4108090D.6070900@mdrconsult.com> <014701c474e2$d1c472c0$0500fea9@game> <410817B5.2050204@mdrconsult.com> <019b01c474ec$dc17d5f0$0500fea9@game> <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731224905.0079a2f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <004401c4777a$462127f0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <410C957C.3070804@execpc.com> FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927757 (Software) and http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927337 (External floppy drive) Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a reasonable price... -Tom From tomhudson at execpc.com Sun Aug 1 02:04:35 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <004401c4777a$462127f0$0500fea9@game> References: <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040728121126.009b9530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10407281922.ZM28583@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4107FCFD.6030205@mdrconsult.com> <16647.65371.706000.557188@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4108090D.6070900@mdrconsult.com> <014701c474e2$d1c472c0$0500fea9@game> <410817B5.2050204@mdrconsult.com> <019b01c474ec$dc17d5f0$0500fea9@game> <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731224905.0079a2f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <004401c4777a$462127f0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <410C9603.2070003@execpc.com> (Oops, I mistakenly posted this earlier under the wrong subject. Sorry!) FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927757 (Software) and http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927337 (External floppy drive) Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a reasonable price... -Tom From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Aug 1 03:05:59 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: RQZX1 setup? Message-ID: <410CA467.8050907@mdrconsult.com> I'm trying to find documentation on an RQZX1 Qbus SCSI controller. I'd like to know the dip switch settings, and especially how to access the ROM-based configuration tool. Any help would be sincerely appreciated. Doc Shipley From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Aug 1 04:11:49 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: <006c01c47778$a180f320$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20040731225540.00a015e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <006c01c47778$a180f320$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <85a98fd74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <006c01c47778$a180f320$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> "Jay West" wrote: > It was Bob that told me he had pretty pitiful luck with finding ones, and > the ones he did find had a very low success rate. Hence, the discussion of > EPROMS and SRAMS. What about using a GAL programmable logic chip? Use CUPL's "lookup table" feature, use the 8 (or was it 9?) inputs on a GAL16V8 as address inputs and use the outputs as data outputs. IIRC the propagation delay for a normal GAL is 15nS, but you can get them in speeds down to 7nS. Pricing in 10-off for GAL16V8D-QP chips was somewhere around ?1 ($2) each last time I ordered some. As far as programming goes, there are designs for a programmer called the "GALBlast" floating around the 'Net. Make sure you get the latest version (1.6 IIRC) from the author's homepage. I found a single-sided PCB layout that used an R2R ladder on a site called "mpu51". I subbed a BFY51 for the power switching transistor and a BC557 (jellybean PNP) for the PNP transistor. It seems to work fine, but the 7805 NEEDS a heatsink, unless you feel like trying to work out why the programmer won't work. I used a piece of scrap aluminium sheet, bent into a flattened "U" shape. The source code is included with the programming software, so you could probably write your own driver to run it. IIRC the guy who designed the GALBlast was Manfred Winterhoff (aka MaWin). My GALBlast works, but YMMV. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Aug 1 07:30:23 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: <006b01c47639$4a40f140$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <006b01c47639$4a40f140$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040801132532.037275a8@pop.freeserve.net> At 14:29 30/07/2004, Jay West wrote: > > Secondly, you need to halt the device while the SRAM is loaded. >I would envision the SRAM load to only happen once, during power up. One >could build in a reset button and dip bank switch or micro rotary switch >that would make it load different contents, but it would be up to the >operator not to do that while the system was running. Just my idle thought, reading through this thread, but would it be possible to provide some sort of battery backup (maybe rechargeable?) for the SRAM on this device? Then you don't have to worry about copying out of EPROM (or whatever) into the SRAM in those few ns as you power up the machine, as it's already in there from last time? Have a hefty enough battery to run the PIC/whatever, and you can even select the ROM image and re-load the SRAM while the rest of the system is still powered off. Rob From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 1 07:38:59 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: More HP microcode & loader rom detective work References: <200407271652.JAA21209@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410CE463.4070506@tiac.net> Most often I build small 'emulators' that use a microcontroller and an EPROM. Using a PC parallel port should work just fine. You need to monitor the DEVICE COMMAND flag from the I/O board. At power up, or following a PRESET operation, DEVICE COMMAND will be asserted, and the PC or emulator should pre-clock the interface DEVICE FLAG input to clear this 'false' request. Once pre-clocked, eash assertion of DEVICE COMMAND should be followed by sending the 8-bit parallel data, then strobing DEVICE FLAG. A correct load will halt with 102077 in the S-register. If your directly connecting the PC to the HP, be careful about ground loops and latchup issues if both devices are not powered up at the same moment. If you need to power the emulator up seperately from the HP I'd reccomend some form of isolation. Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Bob Shannon" >> >> >> >>Jay West wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>1816-0420 No clue >>> >>Paper tape. This is the 'fastest' easy way to bootstrap an HP 1000. >> >>Use this with a 12566 microcircuit I/O board, and you can load a 31K word >>boot image in less than 2 seconds, faster than many stock HP disk drives. >> > > What data source are you using? I was thinking of connecting >this board to the parallel port of my PC to make the PC look like >an external drive. >Dwight > >>Use this boot rom with the emulator I'm building for you. I'll supply a >>cable and jumper settings for the I/O card (gnd true). >> >> > > > From cbajpai at comcast.net Sun Aug 1 07:35:32 2004 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410C9603.2070003@execpc.com> Message-ID: <000001c477c4$0a5478e0$707ba8c0@xpdesk> The compucolor II was the system I lusted after when I was a kid...but my dad bought a TRS-80 instead. Are there any CompuColor II manuals or emulators on line? I heard there are quirks to the CompuColor Hardware - like the screen buffer is actually used during floppy I/O. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Hudson Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Compucolor items on eBay (Oops, I mistakenly posted this earlier under the wrong subject. Sorry!) FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927 757 (Software) and http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927 337 (External floppy drive) Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a reasonable price... -Tom From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 1 07:50:14 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: More HP microcode & loader rom detective work References: <200407271650.JAA21205@clulw009.amd.com> <01c101c47405$f7a28be0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <410CE706.8090001@tiac.net> E's and F's use the same architecture! Later revisions of the F series firmware 'packaged' the microcode options differently, but the basic E-series microroutines run exactly the same way on an F series. What makes an F series an F series is a external floating point accelerator box and ADDITIONAL microcode to drive it. Then there is a series of microcode options that are only available for machines with this external box and internal microcode, options like the scientific instruction set, etc. There is no 'difference' to the CPU boards between E and F machines, its just a batch of bolt-on hardware and firmware ROM's. Jay West wrote: >Dwight wrote... > >> My understanding is that for the E series, the only difference >>between the E and the F is the additional firmware ROMs. My >>understanding is that you'd need the ROM expansion board. >> >No, the E and F series use different microcode - the architecture is >definitely different. Backwards compatable, but definitely different under >the hood. > >> I hope you are going to make some binary files of all these ROMs. >> >Absolutely, unequivically :) > >>Maybe Al can make a directory to hold ROM images >> >*points* > >Jay > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 1 07:56:05 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: OT language crap Re: Insect Conductivity - language? References: Message-ID: <410CE865.8010105@tiac.net> Ahhh, so there is a rational reason to be careful with your choice of words! Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >>At 07:23 AM 7/27/04 -0700, Sellam wrote: >> >>>I have yet to hear a rational reason why anyone should not feel free to >>>use the words of their choosing. Because, after all, they are just words. >>> >> Boy, that's certainly not the reaction that I got from you over the use >>of the word Fag. Do I sense a double standard here? >> > >That's because calling someone a "fag" is somewhat like calling someone a >"nigger". You just don't do that unless you really want to offend >someone. It's a term of hate. > >Take the context you used it in--"BATF fags"--and replace "fags" with >"niggers" and you (I hope) get my point. > >In my case, I was using perfectly valid language to perfectly express the >way I felt about the TSA, ants, et al. It did not involve using a >pointed derogatory term to offend any particular person. I was merely >using an adverb in context. > >Joe, you can of course use any language that you please. I was merely >pointing out that using that particular language can really hurt people, >perhaps even people you like, and people who like you. > From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Aug 1 08:58:42 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410C9603.2070003@execpc.com> References: <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040728121126.009b9530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10407281922.ZM28583@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4107FCFD.6030205@mdrconsult.com> <16647.65371.706000.557188@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4108090D.6070900@mdrconsult.com> <014701c474e2$d1c472c0$0500fea9@game> <410817B5.2050204@mdrconsult.com> <019b01c474ec$dc17d5f0$0500fea9@game> <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731224905.0079a2f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <004401c4777a$462127f0$0500fea9@game> <410C9603.2070003@execpc.com> Message-ID: <410CF712.3010008@pacbell.net> Tom Hudson wrote: > (Oops, I mistakenly posted this earlier under the wrong subject. Sorry!) > > FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items > on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927757 > (Software) > > and > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927337 > (External floppy drive) > > Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had > written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a > flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really > loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these > items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out > on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a > reasonable price... > > -Tom I have a compucolor II that was donated to me. It is next in the queue of machines that I want to emulate. I think I have sufficient technical docs to do it, but if anybody has software to share with me, it makes the emulator more interesting for sure. I still have one tasks left on my Sol-20 emulator (adding helios emulation) and one major task left on my Wang 2200 emulator (getting the VP mode going). Then it is the compucolor. From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 1 09:42:10 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? References: <3.0.6.32.20040731225540.00a015e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><006c01c47778$a180f320$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <85a98fd74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <011801c477d5$ba76be20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> From: "Philip Pemberton" > What about using a GAL programmable logic chip? > Use CUPL's "lookup table" feature, use the 8 (or was it 9?) inputs on a > GAL16V8 as address inputs and use the outputs as data outputs. IIRC the > propagation delay for a normal GAL is 15nS, but you can get them in speeds > down to 7nS. Isn't there a shortage of product terms? I thought there were only 8 product terms per output. Unless the data in the PROMs being replaced is fairly regular, that doesn't seem enough to guarantee success. Vince From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 1 09:49:33 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: <006c01c47778$a180f320$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200407310057.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731100638.00875ae0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731225540.00a015e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040801104933.00873690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:35 PM 7/31/04 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote... >> Bob Shannon has ordered these and gotten them so I'm wondering why all >> the sudden interest in using EPROMs or SRAMs. But I thought I'd let the >> discussion continue and see what developes. From what Bob told me he >> orders one specific part but Jameco sends him several different brands. >> They're supposed to be equivilent but apparently that's only in read mode. >> They are programmed differently and he's had both good and bad luck >> programming them. >It was Bob that told me he had pretty pitiful luck with finding ones, and >the ones he did find had a very low success rate. I think the reason that Bob has had such little success is due to the fact that his programmer only has one setting for the 256 x 4 PROMs and it tries to program all of them the same way. If you look at the settings used in in a Data I/O 29, Stag or Prolog programmer you'll see that the different brand parts are programmed with different settings. I think you'd have MUCH better success programming the parts with those programmers. I have a pamplet from Pro-Log that describes PROMs and EPROMs and it list the different types of technology and materials used in the PROMs. They are VERY different from each other. EPROMs are pretty standard but PROMs aren't. Hence, the discussion of >EPROMS and SRAMS. > >> >> There's no room for a duaghterboard to mount on the HP 1000 card. >I beg to differ. ??? On my 1000s the board with the PROMs is located in the bottom of the chassis and UNDER an aluminium plate with just enough room for the parts on the board to clear the plate. In fact, there are holes in the plate to allow access to the PROMs without having to remove the board from the bottom of the machine. The holes aren't very big, perhaps 1 1/2 x 2 inches so I doubt you could build a dautherboard small enough to fit inside of one. Joe But one could always run a short and heavily shielded cable >to it. > >Jay > > From tomhudson at execpc.com Sun Aug 1 10:50:25 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <000001c477c4$0a5478e0$707ba8c0@xpdesk> References: <000001c477c4$0a5478e0$707ba8c0@xpdesk> Message-ID: <410D1141.4000604@execpc.com> For me, it was a choice between the Compucolor II and an Apple II. The decision was based on the Compucolor's built-in RGB monitor vs. the Apple's RF video output, which I felt was not as good-looking. That plus the fact that I'd have to buy an expensive color TV as well as the computer, and that would have broken my budget. You're right about the quirks. The screen RAM was used as a buffer when the floppy was doing certain operations. And the file system was truly strange -- If you saved a file with the same name as an existing one, it would leave the old one intact and create a new file with an incremental version number. IIRC, that was a leftover from the 8-track file system the previous version of the Compucolor used. -Tom Chandra Bajpai wrote: >The compucolor II was the system I lusted after when I was a kid...but >my dad bought a TRS-80 instead. > >Are there any CompuColor II manuals or emulators on line? >I heard there are quirks to the CompuColor Hardware - like the screen >buffer is actually used during floppy I/O. > > > From tomhudson at execpc.com Sun Aug 1 10:57:12 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410CF712.3010008@pacbell.net> References: <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040728121126.009b9530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10407281922.ZM28583@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4107FCFD.6030205@mdrconsult.com> <16647.65371.706000.557188@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4108090D.6070900@mdrconsult.com> <014701c474e2$d1c472c0$0500fea9@game> <410817B5.2050204@mdrconsult.com> <019b01c474ec$dc17d5f0$0500fea9@game> <41082603.90104@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731224905.0079a2f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <004401c4777a$462127f0$0500fea9@game> <410C9603.2070003@execpc.com> <410CF712.3010008@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <410D12D8.7090304@execpc.com> I assume your CCII is still working -- if so, you're very lucky. Mine would blow up about every 9 months or so, and it got to the point where I'd cringe every time I turned it on, waiting for smoke to come out of it. The analog board driving the display had some really cute tendencies, where one component would fail and then take out a number of others in rapid succession. I will look and see if somehow some of my Compucolor software survived. I think I tossed it years ago, but I had some pretty cool stuff, including an "Asteroids" game I wrote in assembler. You are welcome to anything I can dig up -- I'll let you know if I find anything. I used to have all the technical docs and a full set of "Colorcue" newsletters that Compucolor put out; it's time to go look at my attic archive... -Tom Jim Battle wrote: > I have a compucolor II that was donated to me. It is next in the > queue of machines that I want to emulate. I think I have sufficient > technical docs to do it, but if anybody has software to share with me, > it makes the emulator more interesting for sure. > > I still have one tasks left on my Sol-20 emulator (adding helios > emulation) and one major task left on my Wang 2200 emulator (getting > the VP mode going). Then it is the compucolor. > From marvin at rain.org Sun Aug 1 11:06:08 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Reforming Old Capacitors Message-ID: <410D14F0.2E2CB84E@rain.org> Someone just posted this handbook on the Heathkit listserver, and looks pretty good at a first glance. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE HANDBOOK FOR STORAGE SHELF LIFE AND REFORMING PROCEDURES FOR ALUMINUM ELECTROLYTIC FIXED CAPACITORS It is online in PDF format at: http://www.multi-volti.com/hb1131.pdf From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 12:54:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: CCTALK/CCTECH archives In-Reply-To: <002c01c4776f$ecd713d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Jay West wrote: > > Doesn't ANYONE have archives going back to the beginning? Whatever > > happened to the old archives? They were so nice... > The archives are there.... just at a somewhat "hidden" url. It's been so > long since I've had time to mess with them, I have forgotten why they were > moved offline temporarily (now semi-permanently due to my overcomittment). > Anyone who has wanted to get to the old archives just asks me and I give > them the URL. The hidden one doesn't change. If you want it sellam, ask me > off-list. Sooner or later I'll get around to digging into exactly why I had > to take them out of public view, and fix whatever that was so they are back > online. I'd be willing to put forth my time to look into it and then get it into archive format, though it would probably be better if someone with experience did that (I'm sure there's easy to use software already written to make it happen). I just want that data back on the web because it comes in really handy for a lot of people. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 12:56:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > That looks about right but to avoid confusion, it should be noted that > in the factory configuration only pins 2, 5, 6, 11 and 12 are used. 2 > goes to the rear mounted pot for color adjustment, 5 and 6 to video out > and 11 and 12 to AC CONTROL (which I think is an early form of X10 > appliance control). That makes sense. A lot of X10 products were either built for or integrated into computer products in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I have examples for Radio Shack, S-100, OSI, and maybe one other platform. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 13:20:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's In-Reply-To: <410C957C.3070804@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote: > FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items > on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927757 > (Software) > > and > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112927337 > (External floppy drive) > > Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had > written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a > flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really > loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these > items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out > on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a > reasonable price... Just think of all the Compucolors in the TV section of thrift shops that have been passed up by collectors over the years and subsequently junked :( One collector that I used to know said he passed by a pile of junk with a TV on the highway but decided to go back for some strange reason and found that the TV was actually a Compucolor. I got a fairly complete Compucolor a couple years back but it smoked upon being powered up. I'll have to get to fixing it someday. I'd really like to bid on the software up for auction so if someone wants it worse than me, please let me know. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 13:30:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: OT language crap Re: Insect Conductivity - language? In-Reply-To: <410CE865.8010105@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Bob Shannon wrote: > Ahhh, so there is a rational reason to be careful with your choice of words! Of course, I never argued otherwise. I'm just saying that certain words are given an undue amount of weight these days because some people suffer from arrested development. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 13:34:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410D1141.4000604@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote: > You're right about the quirks. The screen RAM was used as a buffer when > the floppy was doing certain operations. And the file system was truly Incidentally, the Apple ][ also uses the screen buffer ($400-$800) as a temporary disk buffer, but only the portions of the RAM that are not mapped to the screen (there are actually 64 bytes in the buffer that you don't see on the screen and that can be used for temporary data storage). This is true with DOS 3.3. I'm not sure about ProDOS. > strange -- If you saved a file with the same name as an existing one, it > would leave the old one intact and create a new file with an incremental > version number. IIRC, that was a leftover from the 8-track file system > the previous version of the Compucolor used. "8-track" filesystem? As in tapes? More info please :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Aug 1 13:54:52 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410D3C7C.70406@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote: ... > I got a fairly complete Compucolor a couple years back but it smoked upon > being powered up. I'll have to get to fixing it someday. > > I'd really like to bid on the software up for auction so if someone wants > it worse than me, please let me know. > I'm the current bidder on those items. I plan on recovering the data for use with the yet-to-be-written emulator, but if you want them, bid on them, and eventually I'll find somebody else who can supply the disk images. Beware that I'm willing to bid much higher than the current price! From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Aug 1 13:52:46 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Pro350 VAX console? Message-ID: Hi all. Last week I grabbed a what seems to be "pristine" DEC Pro350 which was in use as a VAX console.. the VAX interconnect cable is still attached to it. Now, before I strip it to become a regular Pro.. would it be useful to save the disk's current content? I seem to remember a discussion on that stuff being hard to find... Thanks, Fred From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Aug 1 14:32:07 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Cirris 1000 References: <3.0.6.32.20040727205617.00b46680@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731224638.00797100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006401c477fe$985f56c0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Cirris 1000 > At 08:36 PM 7/28/04 +0100, you wrote: > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Joe R." > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 1:56 AM > >Subject: Re: Cirris 1000 > > > > > >> Jim, > >> > >> Yes I still have it. The winnng bidder welshed out and never paid for > >it. > >> Joe > >> > >I'm not particularly sensitive in these matters , but I do object to your > >use of the term "welsh" , meaning to renege on a bet I am told. > >This is old English propaganda , and I'm told that Bill Clinton had to > >apologise for it's use in America. > > That's fair, America has had to apologize for Bill Clinton many times. > > > > > >Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the use of the > >verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a foreign country on > >false premises or purely for the advancement of American capital interests . > > Welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh! > > Joe > I can see you're a good ol' boy Joe , what say you an' me go out in tha truck tonight and hunt down those goddam ( no goddam , not sellam ) blacks and commies and shoot 'em up ? Waddya say ? Then we'll take care of all the pesky liberals holding back that great country of yours - sure sounds like fun ta me! Weee-el , waddya say ? Geoff. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 1 14:17:40 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <200407272038.QAA14638@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <000e01c4740a$8af1bd90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200407272038.QAA14638@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200408011942.PAA07774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> But the emulated VAX hangs at selftest step B. The manual I have >>> (EK-KA630-UG-001) says this means that the IPCR is not working >> IIRC that's the dorrbell register. I found the problem here; it was a totally boneheaded mistake on my part. Two of the IPCR bits are bits 0x0040 and 0x0020 - and I had coded up my IPCR emulation with those bits at 0x0080 and 0x0040. I moved them to the correct bits and all of a sudden it started working a whole lot better. After a bit of work, the selftest now gets much further. Now it falls over during test 4. I know exactly why, and I'm not sure what to do about it. It's turning on memory management (mtpr $1,$38). But it must be depending on some idiosyncracy of the chip, because the way the page tables are set up, the address after that is not valid after memory management is turned on. In physical memory, we have 00000200: moval 21e,r0 00000205: bicl2 $fffffe00,r0 0000020c: bisl2 $80000000,r0 00000213: brb 218 00000215: halt 00000216: halt 00000217: halt 00000218: nop 00000219: mtpr $1,$38 0000021c: jmp (r0) 0000021e: nop with this code entered by jumping to 200. But at this point, the way the page tables are set up... vax> v 21c 0000021c: P0BR 80000600 + 000004 = 80000604 -> SBR 00000600 + 00000c = 0000060c S PTE a4000004 = V=1 PROT=4=UW M=1 OS=00 PF=000004 -> process PTE physical address 00000804 process PTE 00000000 = V=0 PROT=0=NOAC M=0 OS=00 PF=000000 -> not valid However, as you can see, r0 will contain 8000001e at that point, and vax> v 8000001e 8000001e: SBR 00000600 + 000000 = 00000600 S PTE a0000001 = V=1 PROT=4=UW M=0 OS=00 PF=000001 -> physical address 0000021e So the code is obviously depending on the "jmp (r0)" getting executed even though it's not accessible after MAPEN is turned on. Either MAPEN setting is getting delayed or it's counting on executing out of prefetch buffers or some such. I'm not sure what I want to do about this. I can see two basic tacks to take here: (1) patch the ROM images to avoid this dependence or (2) try to emulate whatever the chip is doing. Tentatively, I'd prefer the latter. But that leaves me with another question: Does anyone know the KA630 CPU well enough to say exactly how it is this code manages to work? I can't write an emulation of something I don't understand, after all. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Aug 1 14:59:02 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:41 2005 Subject: Fw: Insect Conductivity - language? References: Message-ID: <008501c47802$0660ee60$0200a8c0@geoff> OK. That makes more sense. I was referring to your finely worded cuss being an art form. Familiarity , however, does breed contempt . Judicious use is essential. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:20 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Insect Conductivity - language? > On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > > It sounds like you're agreeing with what I said ? > > Nope, the exact opposite. > > You said: > > "the school that believes that swearing is an art form ( not ark B ) and > if it is used indiscriminately it loses it's impact." > > My point was that the act of swearing, whether in amounts copious or > meager, has no more effect on its impact than does a bad copy of the Mona > Lisa on the art of painting. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 15:45:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips Message-ID: I was walking out of the supermarket the other day with my corn and sour cream and noticed that they were selling a DVD compilation of all the School House Rock videos ever made, including unreleased and never before seen episodes. The DVD was $19.99, and they also had a VHS tape at $12.99. Amazon listing it for a couple bucks more: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005JKTY/qid=1091393049/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-4663748-2146401?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846 For the uninitiated, School House Rock was a series of interludes shown during Saturday morning cartoons[1] which put learning concepts (science, history, mathematics, language, etc.) to rock music. It started in the mid-1970s and they were shown through to at least the mid-1980s before they apparently got too outdated to show any more. "Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips" was a three part series that introduced computer concepts. Apparently there's a newly(?) produced 4th episode on the DVD. [1] An institution amongst American children during the 1980s, now defunct due to the supplanting over time of all the good cartoons with absolute crap starting with cocaine-induced dreck like The Smurfs and My Little Pony. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 15:47:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Cirris 1000 In-Reply-To: <006401c477fe$985f56c0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > I can see you're a good ol' boy Joe , what say you an' me go out in tha > truck tonight and hunt down those goddam ( no goddam , not sellam ) > blacks and commies and shoot 'em up ? Waddya say ? > Then we'll take care of all the pesky liberals holding back that great > country of yours - sure sounds like fun ta me! > Weee-el , waddya say ? Wow, this is kinda getting out of hand now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 15:48:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Fw: Insect Conductivity - language? In-Reply-To: <008501c47802$0660ee60$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > OK. That makes more sense. I was referring to your finely worded cuss being > an art form. > Familiarity , however, does breed contempt . Judicious use is essential. And contempt breeds familiarity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Aug 1 15:56:53 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Cirris 1000 References: Message-ID: <00ed01c4780a$2e280fc0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Cirris 1000 > On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > > I can see you're a good ol' boy Joe , what say you an' me go out in tha > > truck tonight and hunt down those goddam ( no goddam , not sellam ) > > blacks and commies and shoot 'em up ? Waddya say ? > > Then we'll take care of all the pesky liberals holding back that great > > country of yours - sure sounds like fun ta me! > > Weee-el , waddya say ? > > Wow, this is kinda getting out of hand now. > Err , not if you're Welsh it's not . > Geoff. -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Aug 1 16:02:33 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) References: <012f01c474da$3cb369a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <16653.23145.727000.803803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the >> use of the verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a >> foreign country on false premises or purely for the advancement of >> American capital interests . Is that term applicable when the French do it? paul From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 1 16:03:27 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091394203.14675.1892.camel@fiche> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 13:20, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm more interested in a clock/calendar: something that could be polled > and produce the local time and date. But but... this isn't an obvious statement, even... even 'stand-alone battery-backed chips producing BCD date & time in English' require interpretation (interface protocol, output, etc) schematically no different than the simplest timer tick, via interrupt or mainline code IO or memory poll (or hell HALT). Then there's light-to-dark-grey chips that produce isochronous events, even timedate specific, in all sorts of intermediate forms, seconds since FOO, etc. Every hardware programmer has coded dozens. I did one/many for CP/M (in my homemade command interpreter) and MSDOS, etc. > I'll bet an interesting history lurks behind such a seemingly simple topic > (real-time clock calendar deployment in computers). Oh it's certain! Few things are more taken for granted but hard to pin down. My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm not sure anyone ever produced one. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 16:06:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) In-Reply-To: <16653.23145.727000.803803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > >> Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the > >> use of the verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a > >> foreign country on false premises or purely for the advancement of > >> American capital interests . > > Is that term applicable when the French do it? What, "Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys" isn't enough? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Aug 1 16:10:16 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) References: <012f01c474da$3cb369a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <16653.23145.727000.803803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <011e01c4780b$fa27c420$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:02 PM Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > >> Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the > >> use of the verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a > >> foreign country on false premises or purely for the advancement of > >> American capital interests . > > Is that term applicable when the French do it? > > paul > Of course , But our comrade Joe is using a purely perjorative term from the English colonial past. That is what I object to , given the English colonial past. e.g. Drug Runners - see under Chinese Opium Wars. Geoff. From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 1 16:09:42 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091394578.14675.1904.camel@fiche> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 16:18, Tony Duell wrote: > RTCs keep time in hours/minutes/seconds ... To be pedantic, "real time" does not mean wall time, clock time, or calendars, it means isochronous-external-to-the-computer. Things that keep time in traditional wall time are clock/calendars. The terminology for Y2K-problem-capable thingies is not as concise. From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 1 16:18:58 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: <200407300005.RAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407300005.RAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1091395135.14675.1923.camel@fiche> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 17:05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Most of the applications Jay is talking about require faster > than 100ns someplace. Most EPROMs just are not in that range. How about: a fast RAM, with a PIC (and optionally E/EPROM) on the backside. Upon reset, the PIC owns the RAM chip(s); it loads the RAM with data from the EPROM/EEPROM, or serial line to a peecee, flips control of the RAM interface to the "ROM" socket, and goes to sleep. A cute trick commonly used in the CP/M days (and later) was to put a boot EPROM board in the same (conflicting) memory space with RAM; the EPROM code would proceed to "block copy" itself in place (read: EPROM; write: RAM) then reset a flipflop that enabled the EPROM board. EPROM board read access generated many wait states; the trick was the EPROM board ignored write cycles but the underlying RAM didn't. I forget how we handled the EPROM 'read' cycle but it was buss-safe (S100) and simple. From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Aug 1 16:24:08 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OT: IBM Electric typewriter servicing info needed. Message-ID: <20040801162408.78c22e37.sastevens@earthlink.net> This is offtopic for a Classic Computer list, but it's at least classic office equipment from IBM: I recently acquired and am trying to restore an IBM Electric Typewriter. This is a pre-Selectric machine, and even pre-Executive machine. My mother used an IBM Executive electric typewriter years ago to type church bulletins and misc. The machine I have is an IBM Type 11C according to the model plate on the bottom. The few references and pictures I have been able to find online make it appear this machine was new in the early to mid 1950's. I can't find any information about this type of machine anywhere. There are a few Classic Typewriter sites, but what I am looking for is servicing information, how and where to lubricate, etc. The typewriter works mostly fine, but a few keys hit much lighter than others and the carriage shift mechanism is sticky. I've already solved the issue of not being able to find ribbons by rewinding a new generic fabric ribbon onto the IBM spools. I want to restore this machine and use it for writing. There's an appeal to writing direct to paper that is missing in computer-based composition of text. I'd also love to find more resources for older pre-computer IBM equipment, and possibly a few more pieces of such equipment for my collection. IBM was once about Time Clocks and such, long before it was a computer company. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 1 16:33:25 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Pro350 VAX console? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Now, before I strip it to become a regular Pro.. would it be >useful to save the disk's current content? I seem to remember >a discussion on that stuff being hard to find... I'm guessing that it is something that really should be done. I know I haven't bothered (not even totally sure where my Pro380 ex-VAX Console is). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Aug 1 16:52:58 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091394578.14675.1904.camel@fiche> Message-ID: Tom, I have to disagree with you completely! You are NOT being pedantic! An RTC is indeed any source of information which can be used to monitor the passage if time. It does not need to have any synchronization with "wall time" at all. The RTC may just provide an periodic norification that a certain amount of time has elapsed [16.666mS for a 60Hz LTC] or may have register(s) for accumulating a number of these events. If the processor contains built in timers that can divide a clock signal, then any of these can be considered an RTC. Once any type of RTC exists, a computer can be programmed with a value which matches the current "wall time" and use the information from the RTC to update the wall time. The biggest limitation with the minimal implementation of this is the duration which a a computer may be non-responsive [or even "off"] and still have the ability to correlate the information from an RTC with "wall time". In general LTC's are totally useless for this purpose [you have to manually enter the "base correlation" value at boot]. At the high end, the RTC may accumulate a significant number of "ticks" in hardware [usually with battery backup[ and have the ability to be "preset" in order to correlate with "wall time". In many of these cases the RTC also has decoding circuitary to represent the value in Seconds, Minutes, Hours, Days, etc... At this point the RTC has the functionallity of a "Clock/Calendar". If we are in agreement the the original question really needs to be broken down further... A) What was the first computer to make some use of a periodic signal to keep a time/date that was synchronized with "wall time" [either in hardware or in system software]? Or B) What was the first computer to make use of a device which could remain synchronized to "wall time" even if the computer was not operational? >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings >>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 5:10 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >>> Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: First computer with real-time clock? >>> >>> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 16:18, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> > RTCs keep time in hours/minutes/seconds ... >>> >>> To be pedantic, "real time" does not mean wall time, clock >>> time, or calendars, it means >>> isochronous-external-to-the-computer. Things that keep time >>> in traditional wall time are clock/calendars. The >>> terminology for Y2K-problem-capable thingies is not as concise. >>> From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 1 17:24:42 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <200408011942.PAA07774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001401c47816$584e8110$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Does anyone know the KA630 CPU well enough to say exactly how it is > this code manages to work? I can't write an emulation of something I > don't understand, after all. :-) If only you'd bought either of the VMS Internals books I've just auctioned on epay :-) The way VAX/VMS turns on memory management is as follows. (Yours looks like it's something else, some console test code, but the same principles should apply). The code sets up a mapping such that a physical address N, a system virtual address and a P0 address N (using a part of the SPT that is also a P0 page table). So the sequence goes: [PHYSICAL] something irrelevant [PHYSICAL] MTPR #1, 38 [P0] JMP @#10$ [SYSTEM] 10$: next-instruction Now your numbers are going to be different but in principle the code must do the same thing. Your MTPR executes in physical address mode (mapen off) at address 0x0219. The next instruction will be 0x21c, but by them mapping will be on, so this must be a virtual address and it will always be a P0 address (since the preceding physical address must be less than the 4GB maximum that the VAX architecture allows). I assume that your "v" command is dumping your idea of the system and process page tables. Are you sure that you've correctly emulated the various registers involved? The text says that if the code you jump to lives in PFN n, then the mapping sets up P0LR with n+2 and P0BR with the SVA that is n longwords smaller than the SPTE that maps this code. So my guess is that you've failed somewhere to accept an attempt to set up the page tables as expected. I'd work back through the code and see where it sets those up (this may be non-trivial) and then verify that you emulate that stuff properly. Admittedly I'm assuming that whoever coded up this test in the KA630 console ROM used the same mapping technique as VAX/VMS, but I would have thought it a safe assumption that insufficient mind-altering drugs exist in the Universe for someone to sit down and work out an alternative methode that looks like the original but is different :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 17:24:48 2004 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: <543AF378.33B55739.0233EB56@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040801222448.26338.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jeff, I think others here have already told you that the top phono jack should be composite out. I have just put up a crude web repository with the OSI stuff I've managed to scan or cull from the web. A couple of versions of the C4P user's manual are there. I will try to scan my SAM'S manuals in the near future, as well as several OSI-related journals issues and articles. I'm posting this to the group because it may be of interest. If anyone has any scans or other contributions to the repository, they will be gratefully accepted, and appropriate attributions will be made. I'd rather take up more space and have high quality scans, now that high-bandwidth connections are common. I welcome all comments and suggestions. Dave --- JMeyer101@aol.com wrote: > Hello all, > > Does anyone have any information or instructions on > how to connect the 4P to a display? I have the > computer but I'm not able to connect it to anything. > There are 6 what appears to be RCA type plugs on > the back, 2 wide by 3 tall, with + over one column > and - over the other. What do I need to do to get > this thing working? > > I also have an Intellec 4 that I am trying to find > accessories and information for. > > Thanks, > > Jeff > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 17:32:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091394203.14675.1892.camel@fiche> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 13:20, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > I'm more interested in a clock/calendar: something that could be polled > > and produce the local time and date. > > But but... this isn't an obvious statement, even... even 'stand-alone > battery-backed chips producing BCD date & time in English' require > interpretation (interface protocol, output, etc) schematically no > different than the simplest timer tick, via interrupt or mainline code > IO or memory poll (or hell HALT). Then there's light-to-dark-grey chips > that produce isochronous events, even timedate specific, in all sorts of > intermediate forms, seconds since FOO, etc. Every hardware programmer > has coded dozens. I did one/many for CP/M (in my homemade command > interpreter) and MSDOS, etc. Hmm, okay. Then I guess what we'd be looking for is some device that keeps continuous time. I.E. you set it once, and through some manner of both hardware and software, produces the correct current date and time upon request. As far as need to keep the time during power off, I don't know that in this case it would matter too much. It would just have to be a combination of hardware and software that kept the current date in the IBM 650. The 650 was small enough that you could power it down during off hours, though I don't know what actual practice was (perhaps it was too much of a chore to boot up so it was kept on all the time). At any rate, as long as the 650 had some way to generate uniform time pulses, a real-time clock/calendar could be implemented, but this would probably have to be at a hardware level since the 650 was primarily a batch machine, or it would have to be programmed to store the date/time in some memory location that the other applications would not touch, and then some counter would have to be implemented that could update a memory location with the number of ticks since the last access or whatever. Of course, as I've been suggesting, there could have been a totally separate clock/calendar device (heck it could have even been mechanical) that kept the local time/date and then transferred it to the 650 upon request. Just like the clock in a modern PC. > My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by > using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive > material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm > not sure anyone ever produced one. How fun. You'd have to shield it pretty heavily though or else your PC would be glowing at night (talk about a case mod!) Has anyone ever produced a random number generator that pulls it's "seed" from the random background radiation you get on a TV set on a dead channel (snow)? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 17:36:50 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: <1091395135.14675.1923.camel@fiche> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > A cute trick commonly used in the CP/M days (and later) was to put a > boot EPROM board in the same (conflicting) memory space with RAM; the > EPROM code would proceed to "block copy" itself in place (read: EPROM; > write: RAM) then reset a flipflop that enabled the EPROM board. > > EPROM board read access generated many wait states; the trick was the > EPROM board ignored write cycles but the underlying RAM didn't. I forget > how we handled the EPROM 'read' cycle but it was buss-safe (S100) and > simple. I'm not sure if it's an apt analogy (or an analogy at all) but an Apple ][ with 64K has 16K ROM at the top of memory and a 16K bank of RAM shared with the ROM. If you poked to the upper locations it would be stored to the RAM, but if you peeked you'd get the byte in ROM. You could enable RAM read by flipping some soft switches. PEEK and POKE: what wonderful command names! I wish computers were that much fun today. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 17:42:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > I have to disagree with you completely! > > You are NOT being pedantic! > > An RTC is indeed any source of information which can be used to monitor the > passage if time. It does not need to have any synchronization with "wall > time" at all. > > The RTC may just provide an periodic norification that a certain amount of > time has elapsed [16.666mS for a 60Hz LTC] or may have register(s) for > accumulating a number of these events. If the processor contains built in > timers that can divide a clock signal, then any of these can be considered > an RTC. > > Once any type of RTC exists, a computer can be programmed with a value which > matches the current "wall time" and use the information from the RTC to > update the wall time. Right. So what I'm trying to determine now is whether the IBM 650 had an internal hardware counter facility that could be accessed from within software to allow for keeping time. And if not, were there any clock products IBM made that could interface to the 650 to generate the local time/date upon being polled? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Aug 1 18:07:31 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Computer-based ramndom number seed generation: I may at some point remember the machine/manufacturer, but I *do* recall tha one (perhaps Gummint-oriented?) device used a standard radio buried in it somewhere, tuned to a local station, the output of which was digitized and the seeds extracted from that... as I write this, IISTR that it was some kind of crypto-thingy... One of my favorite Random/Chaos devices, is the glass decorative neon 'candle' lamp - it has parallel adjacent metal plates shaped like a small candle flame, and the Neon pressure is adjusted so that the discharge plays over the surface of the plates, giving an orange flickering 'candle flame' effect. Without going into the physics/math involved, these flickers have a quite random period and map completely onto the Chaos domain. I have a couple that I have built to produce low-speed chaos events for triggering Music Apparatus... but a simple timing slicer looking at the output of one of these would return quite random-length numbers for every 'trigger' event. Cheerz John From donm at cts.com Sun Aug 1 18:12:38 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) In-Reply-To: <011e01c4780b$fa27c420$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Koning" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > > > > > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > >> Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the > > >> use of the verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a > > >> foreign country on false premises or purely for the advancement of > > >> American capital interests . > > > > Is that term applicable when the French do it? > > > > paul > > > Of course , > > But our comrade Joe is using a purely perjorative term from the English > colonial past. > That is what I object to , given the English colonial past. > e.g. Drug Runners - see under Chinese Opium Wars. > > Geoff. >From www.wordorigins.org: "Welch" Welch is an archaic form of Welsh, one that pretty much survives only in the sense meaning someone who does not fulfill a bet. This usage dates to around 1857. The origin is obscure, but it undoubtedly originated as an ethnic slur. The term may derive from an old nursery rhyme that included the words "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief." - don From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 1 17:40:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <001401c47816$584e8110$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001401c47816$584e8110$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200408012314.TAA09804@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The way VAX/VMS turns on memory management is as follows. (Yours > looks like it's something else, some console test code, but the same > principles should apply). Yes, it's the ROM console code. > [PHYSICAL] something irrelevant > [PHYSICAL] MTPR #1, 38 > [P0] JMP @#10$ > [SYSTEM] 10$: next-instruction > Your MTPR executes in physical address mode (mapen off) at address > 0x0219. The next instruction will be 0x21c, but by them mapping will > be on, so this must be a virtual address Yes, that's a nice theory. That's how I would do it and that's how NetBSD does it; I'm not surprised to hear that's how VMS does it. But it is not what I am seeing. Recall I had 00000219 mtpr $1,$38 0000021c jmp (r0) 0000021e nop but the page tables are set up such that P0 address 21c is not valid (the P0 PTE for it is no-access not-valid). However, r0 contains an address, 8000001e, which is mapped to physical address 21e. Thus, I infer that the "jmp (r0)" is somehow supposed to get executed *even though* P0 space is set up such that the jmp does not appear at the place PC points after the MTPR - that place does not exist (there is no virtual mapping for it). Since this code does in fact run on a real KA630, the hardware obviously differs from the simulation. (The code is the KA630 ROM code, so there is nothing inherently wrong with its doing things that depend on its running on a KA630; it doesn't have to care about portability to other VAXen.) I've gone over the page tables and the code that sets them up enough that something like prefetching has become the more plausible possibility. > I assume that your "v" command is dumping your idea of the system and > process page tables. Are you sure that you've correctly emulated the > various registers involved? I'm reasonably sure, yes. I read over the setup code and simulated it mentally and came up with the same results. > Admittedly I'm assuming that whoever coded up this test in the KA630 > console ROM used the same mapping technique as VAX/VMS, but I would > have thought it a safe assumption So would I. I went over things in some detail before I convinced myself that it actually is a false assumption, that the code really is depending on something KA630-specific that lets that jmp (r0) get executed even though it looks unmapped. As an experiment, I added instruction-stream prefetching to my simulator. Now it cruises right past that point, executing the jmp out of the prefetch buffer - and falls over later, on something that again looks as though it's expecting to execute out of a prefetch buffer: 20044585: movab 0x2004458d,10(r10) 2004458a: 2004458c: nop 2004458d: mtpr $0,$38 ; MAPEN 20044590: jmp *$20044600 20044596: halt In the simulator, when it hits the force-a-trap at 2004458a (which is at that point running in system virtual space at 8000038a), it traps to 8000038c - apparently the previous movab sets up an SCB vector. Then it tries to turn off MAPEN while still running in system virtual space - and the prefetch buffer I gave it (64 bits) isn't big enough to include the entirety of the jmp that follows. Now, it could be that I just haven't given it a big enough prefetch buffer. But I hesitate to just enlarge the prefetch buffer without some reason to be confident that that's really the correct fix. I also really would be more comfortable knowing exactly what events should cause me to flush prefetch (REI is documented to, but, for example, does the trap caused by the ffff opcode do so?) and how prefetching interacts with alignment. I've also wondered if perhaps changing MAPEN is actually delayed by one instruction. This is another thing that could cause the code I see to work, and it wouldn't upset the turning-on-mapping technique you describe. It would, however, break code that expects setting MAPEN to amount from a branch from physical space to virtual space when they _aren't_ mapped to the same place, which according to the VARM I have is perfectly reasonable code. Hence my asking about people who know the KA630 in detail. Most of these things are things I can test on a real KA630 with suitably contrived test code, but things like prefetch have a tendency to work in funky ways that are often hard to discover with black-box testing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Aug 1 18:26:02 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: <20040801222448.26338.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> References: <543AF378.33B55739.0233EB56@aol.com> <20040801222448.26338.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040801232602.GA939@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 03:24:48PM -0700, Dave wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > I have just put up a crude web repository with the > OSI stuff I've managed to scan or cull from the web. > A couple of versions of the C4P user's manual are > there. I used to have a C4P/MF manual, but I couldn't find it when I gave my board to Hans Franke. :-( Out of curiousity, are there any OSI emulators out there? I've mentioned it before, but when I was a kid, one of my mother's friends had a CIII (8" floppies, 3 processors, 6502, Z80 and 8080?) As a result of playing with it in the late 1970s, I've always had something of a nostalgic attachment - not strong enough to pay real $$$ to aquire one, but I'd love to dabble for a bit. Strangely enough, though, growing up in Ohio, OSI machines weren't that common. You'd think they might be, but I only ever knew two people who had one (the CIII, and one Superboard). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Aug-2004 23:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.3 F (-61.9 C) Windchill -127.8 F (-88.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 19.1 kts Grid 008 Barometer 666.1 mb (11156 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 1 18:53:24 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <200408012314.TAA09804@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001501c47822$bbe11c90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Yes, that's a nice theory. That's how I would do it and that's how > NetBSD does it; I'm not surprised to hear that's how VMS does it. But > it is not what I am seeing. Recall I had > > 00000219 mtpr $1,$38 > 0000021c jmp (r0) > 0000021e nop > > but the page tables are set up such that P0 address 21c is not valid > (the P0 PTE for it is no-access not-valid). However, r0 contains an > address, 8000001e, which is mapped to physical address 21e. Thus, I > infer that the "jmp (r0)" is somehow supposed to get executed *even > though* P0 space is set up such that the jmp does not appear at the > place PC points after the MTPR - that place does not exist > (there is no > virtual mapping for it). There are two immediately obvious possibilities (there may be more, but it's late and I'm off to bed after sending this :-)). Either you've made a mistake somewhere and the P0 address *is* expected to be mapped by the tables or the KA630 (as you suggest) delays the effect of the MAPEN by one instruction. In that case the JMP would still be executing in physical space and by the time you hit the target of the jump (8000001E) you are in system space (which, IIRC< *is* set up). > Since this code does in fact run on a real KA630, the hardware > obviously differs from the simulation. (The code is the KA630 ROM > code, so there is nothing inherently wrong with its doing things that > depend on its running on a KA630; it doesn't have to care about > portability to other VAXen.) I've gone over the page tables and the > code that sets them up enough that something like prefetching has > become the more plausible possibility. I cannot find the details of the instruction fetch buffer (i.e. its size) but, as I say, it's late and I've not looked extensively. Hop on over to Manx and type in 78032 - you'll get two documents that describe the KA630 (you already have the User Guide, the other one is a preliminary chip guide). If I get the chance over the next few days, I'll see if I can find out how the DEMSA/DEMSB worked - that was also based on the 78032 and I may be able to find out more info from that. The other 78032-based system was the MicroVAX 2000/VAXstation 2000. Again, the tech manual is available on Manx - at the very least reading those will keep you busy until I'm awake again :-) > So would I. I went over things in some detail before I convinced > myself that it actually is a false assumption, that the code really is > depending on something KA630-specific that lets that jmp (r0) get > executed even though it looks unmapped. You could extract the important parts of this code (the table setup and the mmg enabling) and build a small bootable image that comes up and just HALTs. Run on your uVII to prove you've got it right and then run on something later (ideally much later like an NVAX) to see what happens. In fact, you might be able to just boot the minimum code required on a UVAX II and then dump its registers just to be sure they agree with yours. > As an experiment, I added instruction-stream prefetching to my > simulator. Now it cruises right past that point, executing > the jmp out > of the prefetch buffer - and falls over later, on something that again > looks as though it's expecting to execute out of a prefetch buffer: > > 20044585: movab 0x2004458d,10(r10) > 2004458a: > 2004458c: nop > 2004458d: mtpr $0,$38 ; MAPEN > 20044590: jmp *$20044600 > 20044596: halt I looked in the VARM. It is moderately silent about enabling MMG, but for when disabled it does say the instruction buffer prefetch should not be allowed within 512 bytes of non-existent memory. The IB for a UVII seems to be 8 bytes, as is the TB. The only reference I have for this is DEC technical Journal N7 (CVAX systems), which, sadly, is not online. > Hence my asking about people who know the KA630 in detail. Most of > these things are things I can test on a real KA630 with suitably > contrived test code, but things like prefetch have a tendency to work > in funky ways that are often hard to discover with black-box testing. The kind of detail you need may no longer be in anyones head. It might have to be determined either by experiment or by reading the chip microcode. The only person I can think of who would know where to go to get an answer would be Bob Supnik. You should be able to find some KA650 ROM code as part of SIMH. Given that you probably know the ROM code pretty well by now (!), how does the KA650 implement this test (if at all). If it's the same, how does SIMH pass the test? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun Aug 1 19:35:33 2004 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040728040754.GA15109@bos7.spole.gov> References: <4106AE3F.1090403@mdrconsult.com> <20040727194931.F3572@newshell.lmi.net> <410721A9.8020101@mdrconsult.com> <20040728040754.GA15109@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <410D8C55.2070306@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >I wonder what it would take to hook a real RX02 up to modern hardware. The >interface isn't complicated, but AFAIK, it would take more than a PeeCee >parallel port to drive it. > > I agree that this is true. You can get by bit banging a PC parallel port as an RX01/RX02 because *that* side sets the pace by driving the clock. With PC parallel port in standard mode, the best you can do is about a 0.5 MHZ clock, 1 uS high, 1uS low. The RX01/RX02 specs state a maximum clock of 400ns high and 400ns low. There is just no way to keep up with that clock without some additional hardware. >-ethan > > > -chuck From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 1 19:29:58 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Pro350 VAX console? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410D8B06.7060909@ntlworld.com> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi all. > > Last week I grabbed a what seems to be "pristine" DEC Pro350 > which was in use as a VAX console.. the VAX interconnect cable > is still attached to it. > > Now, before I strip it to become a regular Pro.. would it be > useful to save the disk's current content? I seem to remember > a discussion on that stuff being hard to find... > > Thanks, > > Fred > > What drive does it have, if it's not too big I would like a disk image. Dan From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 1 20:00:39 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: <20040801222448.26338.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4782c$217f46e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> For people in the NJ,NY,CT area it would be useful to know of the Electronic Barn and give it a visit at least once a year or so, to pick up some odds and ends. To people who live in Silicon Valley the place would seem typical of a number of places, thousands of labelled bins, a few hundred more unlabelled, and some interesting things in the "extreme bargain" area. www: http://www.elecbarn.com/ gps: N40.79517 W74.20047 map: Farrand st, Bloomfield, NJ News is this: the Barn has announced that its closing its doors. Time indefinite. Perhaps by Christmas. For now the prices are reduced. Check it out once more before you won't be able to, John A. Unpaid-for announcement. I'm looking for a new place -- let me know if you have one. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 1 19:35:15 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <001501c47822$bbe11c90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001501c47822$bbe11c90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200408020114.VAA10254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There are two immediately obvious possibilities (there may be more, > but it's late and I'm off to bed after sending this :-)). Either > you've made a mistake somewhere and the P0 address *is* expected to > be mapped by the tables or the KA630 (as you suggest) delays the > effect of the MAPEN by one instruction. It's not the latter. I tried a small test program: # p0 00000000 -> phys 00000000 p0br+0 = a0000000 # p0 00000200 -> phys 00000400 p0br+4 = a0000002 # p0 00000400 -> phys 00000200 p0br+8 = a0000001 # s 80000000 -> phys 00000600 sbr+0 = a0000003 # s 80000200 -> phys 00000800 sbr+4 = a0000004 # sbr = 800 # p0br = 80000000 = phys 600 00000000 78 09 01 50 ashl $9,$1,r0 00000004 78 1d 05 51 ashl $0t29,$5,r1 00000008 d4 52 clrl r2 0000000a 78 1f 01 53 ashl $0t31,$1,r3 0000000e d0 51 c2 00 movl r1,600(r2) 06 00000013 c9 02 51 c2 bisl3 $2,r1,604(r2) 04 06 00000019 c9 01 51 c2 bisl3 $1,r1,608(r2) 08 06 0000001f c9 03 51 c2 bisl3 $3,r1,800(r2) 00 08 00000025 c9 04 51 c2 bisl3 $4,r1,804(r2) 04 08 0000002b da 53 08 mtpr r3,$P0BR 0000002e da 8f 00 08 mtpr $0800,$SBR 00 00 0c 00000035 da 02 0d mtpr $2,$SLR 00000038 da 03 09 mtpr $3,$P0LR 0000003b 94 c2 00 02 clrb 200(r2) 0000003f 94 c2 00 04 clrb 400(r2) 00000043 da 01 38 mtpr $1,$MAPEN 00000046 96 c2 00 02 incb 200(r2) 0000004a 01 nop 0000004b 01 nop 0000004c 01 nop 0000004d da 00 38 mtpr $0,$MAPEN 00000050 01 nop 00000051 01 nop 00000052 01 nop 00000053 11 fe brb . On both a real KA630 and my simulator, the byte that gets incremented is the one at (physical) address 400, not 200. As a check, I swapped the incb with the mtpr just before it; then, both the real thing and the simulator incremement the byte at (physical) 200. I now favour the "executing out of prefetch buffer" theory, reinforced by the following comment snippet someone sent me, supposedly taken from the source to MicroVAX console ROMs: ; To turn on MMGT and execute the following REI depends on a "quirk" ; of the MicroVAX chip. Namely, if the MTPR and REI instruction are ; both fetched as part of the same instruction prefetch, then the ; REI will be executed regardless of the enabling of mmgt. However, I'm going to try to concoct a test program using mapping tricks like the ones in the program above to see if I can get convincing evidence either way on this matter. > Hop on over to Manx and type in 78032 - I'm nto sure where this "Manx" is; I did some poking around with google and found nothing helpful. > The kind of detail you need may no longer be in anyones head. :-( > It might have to be determined either by experiment or by reading the > chip microcode. Heh. I don't suppose the microcode is available anywhere? > You should be able to find some KA650 ROM code as part of SIMH. > Given that you probably know the ROM code pretty well by now (!), how > does the KA650 implement this test (if at all). If it's the same, > how does SIMH pass the test? I'll have to have a look at that, yes. I'll also try to construct tests to probe the KA630's behaviour in this regard. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Aug 1 20:38:14 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Pro350 VAX console? In-Reply-To: <410D8B06.7060909@ntlworld.com> References: <410D8B06.7060909@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20040802013814.GA7570@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 01:29:58AM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > >Hi all. > > > >Last week I grabbed a what seems to be "pristine" DEC Pro350 > >which was in use as a VAX console.. > > > What drive does it have, if it's not too big I would like a disk image. AFAIK, DEC used RD32 (ST-251s) for console boxes - that'd be about 40MB uncompressed, not accounting for empty sectors. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Aug-2004 01:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77.2 F (-60.7 C) Windchill -124.2 F (-86.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18.3 kts Grid 010 Barometer 665.7 mb (11172. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From evan947 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 20:42:47 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing Message-ID: <20040802014247.23796.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> John, Here in Jersey there's a place called Green Brook Electronics, on Rt. 22 in Green Brook -- (732) 968-3500. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Aug 1 20:56:29 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: <1091395135.14675.1923.camel@fiche> Message-ID: > A cute trick commonly used in the CP/M days (and later) was to put a > boot EPROM board in the same (conflicting) memory space with RAM; the > EPROM code would proceed to "block copy" itself in place (read: EPROM; > write: RAM) then reset a flipflop that enabled the EPROM board. > > EPROM board read access generated many wait states; the trick was the > EPROM board ignored write cycles but the underlying RAM didn't. I forget > how we handled the EPROM 'read' cycle but it was buss-safe (S100) and > simple. I believe that was the "PHANTOM" line... pin 67 (according to _THE_S-100_ AND_OTHER_MICRO_BUSES_ by Poe and Goodwin). From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Aug 1 20:56:31 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: <20040801232602.GA939@bos7.spole.gov> References: <543AF378.33B55739.0233EB56@aol.com> <20040801222448.26338.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> <20040801232602.GA939@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <410D9F4F.9060409@pacbell.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: ... > Out of curiousity, are there any OSI emulators out there? The Compukit was a functional clone of the OSI superboard. There is a web site & emulator for it at: http://www.compukit.org/ I haven't messed around with it in a couple years, but at the time there were different ROM images you could configure the thing to boot with, so you could have either the UK version of things or the OSI version. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Aug 1 21:14:27 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: <20040801222448.26338.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I think others here have already told you that the top > phono jack should be composite out. I have just put > up a crude web repository with the OSI stuff I've > managed to scan or cull from the web. A couple of > versions of the C4P user's manual are there. Uh, URL? I've googled a couple of different ways and don't seem to see you site. > I will try to scan my SAM'S manuals in the near future, as > well as several OSI-related journals issues and > articles. Yea, I have tons of OSI stuff I want to scan and put up. The SAM'S are a bear because of the fold-out pages. I've messed around with trying to just lay them out and photograph them with a digital camera. The results are unusable so far. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 1 21:12:35 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <200408020114.VAA10254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <001501c47822$bbe11c90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200408020114.VAA10254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200408020238.WAA10458@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Either you've made a mistake somewhere and the P0 address *is* >> expected to be mapped by the tables or the KA630 (as you suggest) >> delays the effect of the MAPEN by one instruction. > It's not the latter. I tried a small test program: [...] I tried a program designed to test the "executing out of a prefetch buffer" theory. It has a stream of sixteen "incl r4"s in physical memory and as many "decl r5"s at the same addresses in virtual memory, following an mtpr to enable VM, branched to with an REI to avoid issues with prefetch on entry to it. It turns out that a rael KA630 is left with r4=2 and r5=-12, which says to me that it did "incl r4" twice, one incl on r5 (opcode from physical memory, operand from virtual), and 13 "decl r5"s. Since the mtpr is 3 bytes, this fits with executing out of an 8-byte prefetch buffer - and indeed, my simulator with an 8-byte buffer produces the same results. It appears to interact interestingly with alignment. If I prefix a NOP to the MTPR, then I see four "incl r4"s and 12 "decl r5"s - the prefetch buffer gets completely filled from physical memory _following_ the MTPR. This is sort of interesting, coming up with and then testing theories of how this works.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Aug 1 21:49:34 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410DABBE.1080203@pacbell.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: ... > Yea, I have tons of OSI stuff I want to scan and put up. The > SAM'S are a bear because of the fold-out pages. I've messed > around with trying to just lay them out and photograph them > with a digital camera. The results are unusable so far. One thing I've done with mixed success is to go to kinkos, scan the thing on a large scanner but reduce it to something that fits onto my scanner, then scan it at a higher resolution than I normally would to compensate for the reduction during the copy. It is less than ideal, but far better than being paralyzed to inaction by waiting for the perfect solution. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 21:49:31 2004 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040802024931.36099.qmail@web50507.mail.yahoo.com> > Uh, URL? I've googled a couple of different ways > and > don't seem to see you site. Whoops, sorry about that. http://osiweb.org/osiweb There's a section with links to several other OSI sites, including some good emulators. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 21:53:11 2004 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: OSI repository (was Re: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040802025311.5117.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Bill, Sorry about that. It's http://osiweb.org/osiweb. Thanks for the reminder :-) I've also posted to the list. Photographing the SAMS's page is a good idea. I was going to see if Kinko's has some way of scanning those fold-outs. If you have any scans or other goodies, I'd love to include them. There's also a forum area which (I believe) allows attachment of smaller files. --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > I think others here have already told you that the > top > > phono jack should be composite out. I have just > put > > up a crude web repository with the OSI stuff I've > > managed to scan or cull from the web. A couple of > > versions of the C4P user's manual are there. > > Uh, URL? I've googled a couple of different ways > and > don't seem to see you site. > > > I will try to scan my SAM'S manuals in the near > future, as > > well as several OSI-related journals issues and > > articles. > > Yea, I have tons of OSI stuff I want to scan and put > up. The > SAM'S are a bear because of the fold-out pages. > I've messed > around with trying to just lay them out and > photograph them > with a digital camera. The results are unusable so > far. > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Aug 1 22:25:23 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? Message-ID: <200408020325.i723PNUW014047@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Sellam Ismail (vcf@siconic.com) wrote: > Does anyone know what was the first computer to have a built-in real-time > clock? I take it you mean non-volatile clock like the M48T02 RTC chips on the early SUN-4 machines. The reason why there is a difference, is that most operating systems (esp. those that have preemptive schedulers) need a regular timer interrupt. So they use that interrupt for their time-of-day clock. This method is generally accurate and convenient since mainframes were not likely to be switched off overnight. Another advantage held by the early mainframes is that they were kept in a stable environment, which meant that their clock keeping was pretty good anyway. The other reason why you don't actually want to read a time of day clock while the OS is running is speed. Why waste time on I/O since the OS can just keep the elapsed time variable updated with a single instruction. UNIX is a good example: when you boot, the OS goes to the RTC, reads the current time and date and converts it to the UNIX time (seconds since 00:00 Jan 1 1970 UTC). From that moment onwards, the OS is making sure that this value is updated so that it is current. When you actually ask for the time, the system (actually the C library) converts the contents of its time-of-day memory location into the calendar date that humans like to see. When you actually want to set the correct time, the system will update its internal time-of-day memory location *and* the RTC so that then next time the system boots, it will have the correct time. BTW, the original PCs did not have a non-volatile clock, which is why MSDOS by default asks for the date and time every time you boot (assuming you do not override it by creating a AUTOEXEC.BAT file). Since many people mentioned various HP calculators and computers with non-volatile clocks, I only want to mention the HP 59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. This is an HP-IB device that returns the current time/date as an ASCII string. SO if your computer did not have a non-volatile clock you could easily add one. **vp From dittman at dittman.net Sun Aug 1 22:32:04 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Pro350 VAX console? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 01, 2004 02:33:25 PM Message-ID: <20040802033204.E50827A4ED@dittman.net> > >Now, before I strip it to become a regular Pro.. would it be > >useful to save the disk's current content? I seem to remember > >a discussion on that stuff being hard to find... > > I'm guessing that it is something that really should be done. I know > I haven't bothered (not even totally sure where my Pro380 ex-VAX > Console is). The last time I needed to rebuild a VAX Console the floppies had to be special ordered at a cost of $500. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From cbajpai at comcast.net Sun Aug 1 22:32:18 2004 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <000001c47841$55f8e9c0$707ba8c0@xpdesk> This I find very cool...esp since I scored an Xerox Alto Users handbook (thanks Bob!) at VCF/East. Has anyone every heard of these guys.they seem to up in Canada and are painstakingly restoring an Xerox Alto I since April 2003. AINOTL begins restoration of Xerox Alto 1 April 2003 AINOTL Systems, Inc. (AINOTL) is pleased to announce the restoration of a Xerox Alto 1 computer (1972). Only 200 were hand-made at the Xerox PARC research facility - we have the only one known to exist. The Alto featured the world's first What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get (WYSIWYG) editor, a commercial mouse for input, a graphical user interface (GUI), and bit-mapped display, and offered menus and icons, linked to a local area networks (first Ethernet device), implemented electronic mail, and stored files simultaneously. The webpage goes into great details of how they are restoring the hardware along with a lot of pictures. http://www.ainotl.com/alto.html All this Alto fascination has got me wondering if anyone is working on Alto emulation.If not I'd be interesting in starting this dauting task, but don't think I know where to start. Do binaries of the ROM/OS/Applications exist? I'm sure Al Kossow must have Alto hardware docs. Are there any roadblocks in trying to build an Alto Emulator (I've always wondered why an Alto Emulator doesn't exists yet.but I ask the same of my 2nd favorite machine - the Apple Lisa). Anyone else interested in undertaking this task? -Chandra From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 22:33:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <000d01c4782c$217f46e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, John Allain wrote: > For people in the NJ,NY,CT area it would be useful to know of the > Electronic Barn and give it a visit at least once a year or so, to pick > up some odds and ends. To people who live in Silicon Valley the > place would seem typical of a number of places, thousands of labelled > bins, a few hundred more unlabelled, and some interesting things in > the "extreme bargain" area. > www: http://www.elecbarn.com/ > gps: N40.79517 W74.20047 > map: Farrand st, Bloomfield, NJ > > News is this: the Barn has announced that its closing its doors. Time > indefinite. Perhaps by Christmas. For now the prices are reduced. Maybe some enterprising left coasters could get together and buy it to keep it open? I was looking into buying Mike Quinn Electronics to keep it from going away when the old owner decided it was time to move on. He was resigned to closing MQE forever because he didn't think he'd find a buyer. Fortunately, someone else came in and bought the place and is keeping it alive (for now). I think it's really important to try to keep these places open. Someone should make the effort, but know what they're getting themselves in to. Running a surplus electronics business is challenging. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Aug 1 22:48:45 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <200408020325.i723PNUW014047@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200408020325.i723PNUW014047@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20040802034845.GA16177@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 11:25:23PM -0400, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > Since many people mentioned various HP calculators and computers with > non-volatile clocks, I only want to mention the HP 59309A HP-IB Digital > Clock. This is an HP-IB device that returns the current time/date as > an ASCII string. SO if your computer did not have a non-volatile clock > you could easily add one. Ooh... that sounds like a neat toy... I take it that it's uncommon... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Aug-2004 03:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -75.9 F (-60.0 C) Windchill -125.8 F (-87.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 22 kts Grid 002 Barometer 666 mb (11160 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 1 22:53:00 2004 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: Side stand for IBM AT Message-ID: <410DBA9C.3080406@internet1.net> Hi Everyone, Does anybody have an extra side stand for the IBM AT that they would part with? I have never seen one, but it's my understanding that IBM made one for the AT, but most people didn't use them. I'm willing to pay shipping plus a reasonable amount for one in good shape. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 1 23:00:29 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:42 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Maybe some enterprising left coasters could get together and buy it to > keep it open? Was that a hint? > Someone should make the effort, but know what they're getting themselves > in to. Running a surplus electronics business is challenging. I probably would, but frankly, I am pretty saturated right now (until I get a proper warehouse - I have had my eye on a pair in Poughkeepsie, but the prices are pretty high). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From tomhudson at execpc.com Sun Aug 1 23:29:50 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410DC33E.30508@execpc.com> Yup, 8-track tapes. Take a look at http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=560. I never had that version, mine had the 5.25" floppy, which stored a whopping 51.2K, if memory serves. Another fun quirk about the CCII was the fact that the circuit boards were mounted into an unshielded plastic TV case, making it a very effective public nuisance. My parents always knew when I was using the thing because our living room TV's picture would get all sorts of interference on it when the CCII was powered on! (They were annoyed a LOT) -Tom Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >"8-track" filesystem? As in tapes? More info please :) > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 1 23:41:35 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Has anyone ever produced a random number generator that pulls it's "seed" > from the random background radiation you get on a TV set on a dead channel > (snow)? Probably not, as it is easy to get very non random interference (distant stations, various forms of electrical noise, etc. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 1 23:44:36 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091394203.14675.1892.camel@fiche> Message-ID: > My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by > using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive > material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm > not sure anyone ever produced one. I *think* some military crypto gear did things link this, but I am not sure. I know that AT&T once marketted a true random bitstream chip using a bunch of unstable oscillators. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 1 23:58:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service Message-ID: In light of recent conversations, I found this eBay auction interesting: EPROM : ERASE OR PROGRAM EPROM SERVICE PERFORMED http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50914&item=3830935563 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 00:01:23 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Electronic Barn closing Message-ID: <20040802050123.484.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Found a few things besides the place in Green Brook: --- http://www.clarkreiss.com/CR_Products.htm --- http://www.edlieelectronics.com/ --- http://www.adc-ast.com/ --- http://www.servosystems.com/ --- http://www.herbach.com/ --- http://www.industrialsurplus.com/ --- http://www.vulcanscrap.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 00:03:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > Maybe some enterprising left coasters could get together and buy it to > > keep it open? > > Was that a hint? Perhaps ;)~ > I probably would, but frankly, I am pretty saturated right now (until I > get a proper warehouse - I have had my eye on a pair in Poughkeepsie, but > the prices are pretty high). You're in luck! Electronics Barn includes a FREE warehouse :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 00:05:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410DC33E.30508@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote: > Yup, 8-track tapes. Take a look at > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=560. I never had > that version, mine had the 5.25" floppy, which stored a whopping 51.2K, > if memory serves. Cool! What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them but until now I've never known of any examples. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax3900 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 00:21:01 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available Message-ID: <20040802052101.46370.qmail@web51807.mail.yahoo.com> I copied the Z8038 part from the book "The Z8000 microprocessor, A design handbook" by Bradly, K. Fawcett. I remember that somebody on the list tried to make a collection of zilog chip documents. I'd like to mail the 20 pages to him. Please send me email if it is you. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hansp at citem.org Mon Aug 2 01:11:45 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410DDB21.4020602@citem.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > As far as need to keep the time during power off, I don't know that in > this case it would matter too much. It would just have to be a > combination of hardware and software that kept the current date in the IBM > 650. The 650 was small enough that you could power it down during off > hours, though I don't know what actual practice was (perhaps it was too > much of a chore to boot up so it was kept on all the time). At any rate, > as long as the 650 had some way to generate uniform time pulses, a > real-time clock/calendar could be implemented, but this would probably > have to be at a hardware level since the 650 was primarily a batch > machine, or it would have to be programmed to store the date/time in some > memory location that the other applications would not touch, and then some > counter would have to be implemented that could update a memory location > with the number of ticks since the last access or whatever. > > Of course, as I've been suggesting, there could have been a totally > separate clock/calendar device (heck it could have even been mechanical) > that kept the local time/date and then transferred it to the 650 upon > request. Just like the clock in a modern PC. OK, I've sent this question to the IBM Haus of History in Sindelfingen in Germany. They have a working 650 so should be able to provide an answer. I'll keep you informed. The periodic interrupt (50 or 60 times a second depending on which side of the pond you were) was most definitely available in 1964 on the IBM System/360. At each tick, the hardware decremented a word in memory and when it overflowed to zero, a program interrupt was invoked. The handler would do whatever it needed and reset the memory word. Earlier IBM machines also some form of this feature. On the 7094 modified for CTSS it was an IBM special feature. Regards, -- HansP From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Aug 2 01:38:21 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Seeking Strawberry Tree or LabTech (Laboratory Technologies) software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040801231811.026b5c10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 03:09 PM 7/30/04 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Has anyone got any old Strawberry Tree Inc. or LabTech (Laboratory I got this email a week or so ago and have been thinking of posting the information to the list, er, or organization that is. The offer below says Sep 30th for notebook Labtech, but the original email (unfortunately was looks like text, actually a .gif) was for regular Labtech software same $500 for a license good for the whole organization with end date of Aug 30th. My thought was that we might want to do what we did for the Teledisk software, get a point man for our organization, Classic Computing, and if say 25 people went in on it per person it would be a manageable about $25 each ($20 plus $5 to dupe CD and mail). I would be game myself up to a cost per person of about $35. I don't want to be the point person, somebody with more knowledge of LabTech etc. should be it, but I also don't want this to just slip away. 3 months from now this software might really be hard to get at any price. My main question is what hardware will this version work on, ie how old, mac or pc, etc. ************************************************ Notebook offer which is just like the regular offer, but ends a month later. On September 30, 2004, all LABTECH products including all versions of Notebook and Control will be discontinued. After that date the products will no longer be available. Between today and September 30, 2004 you can buy an unlocked copy of the latest version of LABTECH NOTEBOOKpro and LABTECH CONTROLpro for $500. These new unlocked copies will be licensed for unlimited, multiple installation within the purchasing company or organization. In addition, there will be no new unlock codes issued for currently locked editions. If you anticipate that you may need to move your existing copy to a new computer, or expand your application onto additional computers you should take advantage of this offer. We will continue to offer technical support with the same plans and policies as we currently offer, though we reserve the right to add reasonable service plan price increases in the future. We are also committed to maintaining the current version of the product and will address bug fixes as they are identified. Finally, we will release the required resources or source code to any organization that wants to create support for hardware interfaces not supported in that version. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 04:45:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <410DDB21.4020602@citem.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > OK, I've sent this question to the IBM Haus of History in Sindelfingen > in Germany. They have a working 650 so should be able to provide an > answer. I'll keep you informed. I didn't think of doing that! Thanks!! > The periodic interrupt (50 or 60 times a second depending on which side > of the pond you were) was most definitely available in 1964 on the IBM > System/360. At each tick, the hardware decremented a word in memory and > when it overflowed to zero, a program interrupt was invoked. The handler > would do whatever it needed and reset the memory word. > > Earlier IBM machines also some form of this feature. On the 7094 > modified for CTSS it was an IBM special feature. Yes, from what I've been told, the 7090/7094 had a clock feature of some sort. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From JMeyer101 at aol.com Sun Aug 1 00:04:08 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:43 2005 Subject: Heathkit/Zenith tubes Message-ID: Heathkit/Zenith TubesI have 4, new in the box, CRT Tubes that may work with a Heathkit/Zenith H-19 or H-89 computer (I'm not sure how big the display on these models are. The tubes are 8 1/4 " x 6 1/4"). If they are for something else, and you know what that is, please let me know. I have been trying to find out exactly what these tubes are. I have pictures for additional identification. I would hate to get rid of them only to find out they are still useful for a repair or collector. Here are the part numbers and information: These numbers are on the tube: MN1012Pe1Av 254 and CPJ240A1V and 100-730-03E and HG-319 and C1406 380-2655 is written on the bottom of the boxes. The boxes are labeled Heathkit, but the tube inside is labeled Zenith. Thank you, Jeff Meyer From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Aug 1 00:36:01 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:44 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 Plus In-Reply-To: <001601c47682$bdd119c0$0200000a@xeon> References: <001601c47682$bdd119c0$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <410C8141.4010505@hp.com> I'm interested. Let's take this offline.. Bill Machacek wrote: > I just located a PDP 11/23 Plus that is going to be scrapped soon if no one is interested in it. I told the owners that I would check to see if there was any interest in the unit from a chat site I am part of. This is a rack mounted unit with 2 RL02 drives and several disks for the RL02 units also in the rack. It also has the air conditioning attached to the back of the rack. It is sitting outside (come rain or shine) so it may be vandalized at some point in time or the weather may get to it. The owners are interested in getting rid of it, but of course want a payment of some amount. They did not give me a number of what they wanted for it. > Is there any interest here on the board? I can go back and get more information on the item if needed. Just let me know what you'd like to know about it. I was going to get the SN, but couldn't find it. > I'm willing to work with anyone who is interested..... > > Bill Machacek > Colo. Springs, CO > /wai-sun From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Aug 1 00:40:09 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:44 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410C8239.7030500@hp.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I would doubt it. Those old fusible-link PROMs were actually quite fast > with access times of <50ns in many cases. And the designs depended on it. > Surely a modern flash would be faster than a decade-old (or more) fusible-link PROMs? /wai-sun From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Aug 1 00:43:07 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:44 2005 Subject: RX50 Dis/assembly.. In-Reply-To: <040730161144.14e88@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <040730161144.14e88@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <410C82EB.4030603@hp.com> Yeah. I got it back together. Tony saves the day (again!) with his incredibility detailed electronic roadmap (doesn't get any better than pin 1 to gnd!) :-) trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > Did you get it back together? I have 3 RX50 drives I have not dismantled > yet, so I could probably let you know layout. > > Joe HEck > /wai-sun From cb at farley-hill.freeserve.co.uk Sun Aug 1 07:21:47 2004 From: cb at farley-hill.freeserve.co.uk (Chris Broadhurst) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:44 2005 Subject: Jupiter Ace FORTH Programming Message-ID: <002701c477c2$1d8458b0$a8aa4f51@inmezzo.com> Hi, I understand you have the above book - would you consider sending/selling me a photostat of it? Regards Chris From news at computercollector.com Sun Aug 1 19:49:36 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:44 2005 Subject: Mistake in AP story about Steve Jobs... Message-ID: <20040802004936.11829.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all... I just read this AP story about Jobs having surgery for a non-fatal form of cancer. The story is here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040802/ap_on_bi_ge/steve_jobs_cancer&cid=509&ncid=716 I called the AP's office to report the mistake that you'll all notice: in the story's next-to-last paragraph, it says "In 1984, the company released the Macintosh, which was the first computer to have a graphical user interface that mimicked a physical desktop." I ** cringed ** when I read that. As most of you know by now, I'm a tech reporter for a living, and a collector, and thus HATE when the mainstream media doesn't even make an attempt to get this shit right. So I explained to an AP editor what the mistake is. I explained to him that the distinction is NOT a tiny technical loophole, but rather a glaring error that anyone who knows anything about computer history will laugh at (after they finish crying). I could understand a weekend reporter making this mistake, but in the story's byline it says the writer is a technology reporter. You'd think he would know the difference... - Evan From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Mon Aug 2 06:54:14 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:44 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options Message-ID: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Hi all, A quick question for the VAXen experts out there. Help would very much be appreciated. I'd like to know what the maximum drive size is that I can attach to my VAX. I've never been given a definitive answer, but many people appear to have had success with drives larger than those 'officially' declared supported. I will be running OpenVMS. In particular, I'm wondering whether a Seagate ST39173N which is a 9.1GB 50 pin device will work. There are also several 4.3/4.5GB 50 pin models available, as well as a huge number of 68 and 80 pin devices that could be connected via adapters. I bought a Fujitsu 9.1GB 80 pin SCA drive and attempted to connect this to the VAX via an 80 - 50 pin converted but the drive was not recognised properly by either the boot rom or OpenVMS. Thanks for the help, Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 07:13:12 2004 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF In-Reply-To: <12d.47346267.2e3dcf96@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040802121312.37385.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jeff, The OSI systems typically used an MPI B-51 5.25" floppy with a built-in data separator. You can use any other 5.25" SS/SD floppy drive if you build your own separator. The Aardvark Journal Vol. 2 #6 (scan at http://osiweb/osiweb in the Aardvark Journal section) contains a schematic for a data separator on page 4. The discrete component values aren't readable on that scan, but from another article, you need: 74LS121 chip 74LS38 open collector quad NAND 470pf cap between pin 10-11 of the '121 18kohm resistor and a 10k pot between pin 11 and +5V If you use the 74LS38 instead of a 7400, then pull pins 3,4 of the '121 high via a 1K resistor. I have a two-part PEEK-65 (thanks to Earl!) article on interfacing newer disk drives to OSI machines, which I will try to scan and put on the site this week. David --- JMeyer101@aol.com wrote: > Hello Graeme, > > Thank you! This should help alot. Apparently this > computer uses a floppy > drive. Do you happen to know where I can pick one > up? > > Thanks again, > > Jeff Meyer > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 07:16:59 2004 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P/MF In-Reply-To: <20040802121312.37385.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040802121659.3127.qmail@web50504.mail.yahoo.com> > at http://osiweb/osiweb in the Aardvark Journal That's http://osiweb.org/osiweb. Sorry. Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Aug 2 07:54:04 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: correct address References: <000501c3875e$2f99ccb0$0801a8c0@nonav67wj9fzci> Message-ID: <410E396C.C391BAD8@compsys.to> >JOHN MCCANCE wrote: > good morning jerome, > yes, this remains the correct snail mail address. > and no, i am not tired of waiting. there are always many other > amusements to tend to ;-} Jerome Fine replies: Hi John, I tried to send the following e-mail. but it bounced. I hope this will arrive! After I tried to send this e-mail to you and send a reply to an old e-mail, I am sending it to both you and classiccmp. The classiccmp version leaves the address details omitted, so if that is the only one that reaches you, please fill them in! ============================================ At this point, after many delays - most of which are my fault - I am about to mail the CDs. They are actually ready to be taken to the Post Office to be mailed. I want to check on your address first, so please respond! John W. McCance aaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaa Thank you for being so patient!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 2 08:06:26 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? References: Message-ID: <16654.15442.46000.136372@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: John> Computer-based ramndom number seed generation: John> I may at some point remember the machine/manufacturer, but I John> *do* recall tha one (perhaps Gummint-oriented?) device used a John> standard radio buried in it somewhere, tuned to a local John> station, the output of which was digitized and the seeds John> extracted from that... as I write this, IISTR that it was some John> kind of crypto-thingy... That would be quite a bad idea. I'm sure the spooks are smarter than that. Random number generators are built in to most crypto chips these days; they work starting from the noise generated by some simple electronic circuits. Then any biases are taken out by post-processing, for example by running the bitstream through a cryptographic hash. paul From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Aug 2 08:12:08 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: RT-11 / PDP-11 Software Users Message-ID: <410E3DA8.F5D6986C@compsys.to> The reason the subject is for "Software Users" is that ""Hardware Users" will probably want to use ONLY standard DEC distributions of RT-11 which sufficiently exercise the real PDP-11 hardware. The goal of this post is to reach and elicit comments from all of those hobby RT-11 Users who want the bugs fixed and / or want some enhancements. I suppose that it might even be possible that there are some commercial RT-11 users who might be interested, but at this point I am not aware of any and doubt very much that any commercial RT-11 users would be sufficiently interested. BUT, if you are still there, it might still be possible to accommodate the commercial side. The ISO file for a CD with 13 RT-11 distributions is available for download at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ The file is: RT11DV10.ISO.zip The CD contains 13 RT-11 distributions from V01-15 up to V05.03 under both the ISO9660 file structure along with 4 RT-11 directories for the 4 RT-11 partitions on the CD. A rather unique aspect of the CD is that none of the files in the ISO9660 file structure are duplicated. The RT-11 directory entries point to the same location on the CD for the same file in each case. In addition, if SIMH is able to ATTACH the CD as as single file, then it will be possible to actually BOOT the CD under RT-11. Otherwise, just BOOT the container file RT11DV10.ISO, after it is copied to the hard drive (UnZipped actually), under RT-11 as in: ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: It is STRONGLY recommended that NO changes of any kind be made to the ISO file under RT-11, even by experienced RT-11 users. The reasons are explained in the 2 README files. NOTE that all of the images for the RK05 and RL02 media have been truncated - all of the contiguous blocks with zeros at the end of the file image have been removed. The primary reason was so that more of these file images would fit on each RT-11 partition. Specifically, since all RL02 file images are 20,450 blocks, ONLY 3 would fit on each RT-11 partition. In addition, even if the full image of 20,450 blocks were present, it would still not be possible to use each file as a correct file image in all situations under SIMH since the system area needed for the INITIALIZE command under RT-11 would NOT be present. IF the RT-11 user wishes to copy the truncated file image to a "fully functional" RL02 container file to be used under SIMH, then copy the file ZEROSDL.DSK at the end of the CD as in: C:\>COPY D:ZEROSDL.DSK C:RT11V5.03 C:\>PDP11 simh>ATTACH RL0: D:RTV5RL.03 simh>SET RL0: LOCK simh>ATTACH RL1: C:RT11V5.03 simh>BOOT RL0: COPY/DEVICE DL0: DL1: NOTE that the file ZEROSDL.DSK was created by using PUTR to: (C:\)>FORMAT ZEROSDL.DSK/RL02 A big thank you to John Wilson at: http://ww.dbit.com/pub/putr/ For those RT-11 users who have a legal license to run RT-11 under E11, there are two alternatives. If the user has a DVD drive or CDROM drive which allows the first 64 blocks (16 CD sectors) to be read under E11, the it is possible to MOUNT the complete CD as an image as in: E11>MOUNT DU0: CDROMD:/RONLY Of course, it is also possible use the actual ISO image file of the CD as in: E11>MOUNT DU0: C:RT11DV10.ISO/RONLY OR, if the files are on a CD and the user prefers: E11>MOUNT DL0: D:RTV5RL.03/RONLY Depending on the option that the user prefers, the complete text would be: C:\>COPY D:ZEROSDL.DSK C:RT11V5.03 C:\>E11 E11>MOUNT DU0: CDROMD:/RONLY E11>MOUNT DL1: C:RT11V5.03 E11>BOOT DU0: COPY/DEVICE/FILES DU0:RTV5RL.03 DL1: If anyone requires any help in using V1-0 of the CD, please ask!!!!!!!! MY BACKGROUND -------------- I am an RT-11 software addict. I don't know why, but maybe a partial answer is because I have OCB (Obsessive Compulsive Behaviour). In any case, I have used RT-11 off and on for almost 30 years (mostly ON) since I started with V02 of RT-11. I can't remember a single year, since, when I did not use RT-11 some of the time and some years I probably spent more than 4000 hours designing, writing and debugging RT-11 software. I am presently in the midst of fixing bugs and making some of the enhancements mentioned below. PURPOSE OF THIS POST ----------------------- This point is to ask if there are any RT-11 users, either active or inactive, who want to see any of the RT-11 bugs fixed along with enhancements added. While I believe that these news groups are the best means of making contact, perhaps others exist as well. PLEASE mention any other method of contacting RT-11 users. INDEED, PLEASE forward this message to them if you know of any other RT-11 users who may still be interested. LIST OF ITEMS TO BE CONSIDERED ----------------------------------- (a) Bugs! There are a (large??) number of bugs, some of which are able to crash RT-11. Identifying them (probably the biggest part of the problem) as well as fixing them will be a large part of the effort. (b) Enhancements are also very important. Just a few are: - A Path Handler - Enhancements to the MSCP device driver - Enhancements to the SL: (Single Line Editor) - Y2K for older versions followed by Y9K - Enhancements to the BINCOM program - Enhancements to the VBGEXE program - Allow use of SET commands with ANY file - Increase the precision of the TIME command to 1 tick followed by 1 msec - Being able to BOOT an LD: file While I am aware of a VERY small number of RT-11 users, the more that are still interested, the more ideas that can be generated. Please reply, either by private e-mail (first fix my munged e-mail address since the original e-mail address is no longer active) or else send a post and I will reply privately if so requested. I am also sending this post to classiccmp.org, so if you are a member of that list, you can reply either to that list or directly to me in a private manner if you so choose. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 2 08:14:38 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, In-Reply-To: <16654.15442.46000.136372@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 2, 04 09:06:26 am Message-ID: <200408021314.JAA05686@wordstock.com> And thusly Paul Koning spake: > > > Random number generators are built in to most crypto chips these days; > they work starting from the noise generated by some simple electronic > circuits. Then any biases are taken out by post-processing, for > example by running the bitstream through a cryptographic hash. > I will just use a sensor in a cup of hot tea... ;) Cheers, Bryan From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 2 08:19:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <200408020325.i723PNUW014047@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <16654.16248.709000.81075@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vassilis" == Vassilis Prevelakis writes: Vassilis> Sellam Ismail (vcf@siconic.com) wrote: >> Does anyone know what was the first computer to have a built-in >> real-time clock? Vassilis> I take it you mean non-volatile clock like the M48T02 RTC Vassilis> chips on the early SUN-4 machines. Vassilis> The reason why there is a difference, is that most Vassilis> operating systems (esp. those that have preemptive Vassilis> schedulers) need a regular timer interrupt. So they use Vassilis> that interrupt for their time-of-day clock. This method is Vassilis> generally accurate and convenient since mainframes were not Vassilis> likely to be switched off overnight. Vassilis> Another advantage held by the early mainframes is that they Vassilis> were kept in a stable environment, which meant that their Vassilis> clock keeping was pretty good anyway. That depends. If the interrupts are derived from the mains power, then the timekeeping is usually extremely good -- except if the mains is a local generator not connected to the grid, in which case it is likely to be very poor. Conversely, if it's derived from a crystal oscillator, the timekeeping often was quite bad. The reason is that ordinary crystal oscillators (except for those used in watches) come with an 0.01% tolerance, which means an error of over a minute per day. Since actual error distributions on crystals are bimodal, not Gaussian, you would normally get just about that error. This is why DEC machines with a KW11-P were typically run at line frequency and not off the 100 kHz oscillator. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 2 08:22:57 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <1091394203.14675.1892.camel@fiche> Message-ID: <16654.16433.91000.290785@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: William> I know that AT&T once marketted a true random bitstream chip William> using a bunch of unstable oscillators. The better Ethernet chips do likewise. Designing such a thing is *not* easy, especially if most of your ASIC design experience involves thinking about circuits as being digital (rather than analog, as they all are once you dig deep enough). paul From dan at ekoan.com Mon Aug 2 08:40:49 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random number generation, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: <1091394203.14675.1892.camel@fiche> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802093302.04ef7c50@enigma> At 12:44 AM 8/2/04, you wrote: > > My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by > > using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive > > material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm > > not sure anyone ever produced one. > >I *think* some military crypto gear did things link this, but I am not >sure. There's a "hassle factor" in selling radioactive devices to the military, but it's easily done these days at home. Here's what I do: http://www.etoan.com/random-number-generation/index.html >I know that AT&T once marketted a true random bitstream chip using a bunch >of unstable oscillators. I've seen that described, but no justification for the entropy claimed. In response to an earlier comment, early noise generators used a photomultiplier tube in a sealed box with the gain turned all the way up. Using the noise ("snow") from an unused TV (or even radio) channel is not a good idea. Cheers, Dan From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 2 08:46:09 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <410E45A1.6050104@ntlworld.com> Mark Wickens wrote: > Hi all, > > A quick question for the VAXen experts out there. Help would very much be > appreciated. > > I'd like to know what the maximum drive size is that I can attach to my VAX. > I've never been given a definitive answer, but many people appear to have had > success with drives larger than those 'officially' declared supported. I will > be running OpenVMS. > > In particular, I'm wondering whether a Seagate ST39173N which is a 9.1GB 50 > pin device will work. There are also several 4.3/4.5GB 50 pin models > available, as well as a huge number of 68 and 80 pin devices that could be > connected via adapters. > > I bought a Fujitsu 9.1GB 80 pin SCA drive and attempted to connect this to the > VAX via an 80 - 50 pin converted but the drive was not recognised properly by > either the boot rom or OpenVMS. > > Thanks for the help, > > Mark. I've got 2x18gb drives internally on mine. They both work fine one boots vms and the other netbsd. I did have trouble with a couple of drives with a 80-50 pin convertor, but I did use one seagate 9gb drive which worked for a while with a convertor. Dan From dan at ekoan.com Mon Aug 2 08:51:55 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c4782c$217f46e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802094719.04f02db0@enigma> At 11:33 PM 8/1/04, you wrote: >On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, John Allain wrote: > > > News is this: the Barn has announced that its closing its doors. Time > > indefinite. Perhaps by Christmas. For now the prices are reduced. > >Maybe some enterprising left coasters could get together and buy it to >keep it open? Here's a note from a friend of mine who is familiar with the situation: --- Guess it's public now. I know the proprietor, Yoneh, well. Been going there since 1983. A mixed bag, mostly PC parts and industrial leftovers at the component level. Zillions of Rs, Ls, Cs, Xtals, Xfmrs, etc. Almost nothing soldered together, just parts, some electromechanicals, but in depth. Good attitude toward honest customers (a rarity, the Barn is in a poor neighborhood not far from Newark...) They are in the same building as NTE Electronics, the huge parts distributor /semiconductor re-brander. Yoneh told me some months ago that he was looking to get out of the junk business, as it has markedly died off; kids don't build anything anymore, and the margins are down, and good stuff is hard to get. He's been complaining about declining sales for several years. I notice fewer customers, too. Last month he said that he was selling the inventory to a place in California, as a lot, after he sells off whatever else he can. Might be Halted, don't know. A shame to see it happen. The Barn was the last real electronics junkyard in the area, and a dependable place. It will be replaced by (Yoneh) selling PCs and higher-end stuff. I suspect he cut a deal with his landlord NTE to move new merchandise. Progress sucks. --- Cheers, Dan From mross666 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 2 08:59:30 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:32:18 -0400 From: "Chandra Bajpai" Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation >Has anyone every heard of these guys.they seem to up in Canada and are >painstakingly restoring an Xerox Alto I since April 2003. That would be the Bordynuiks, Heather & John IIRC. They had a bunch of stuff on ebay a while back, bought some pdp-11/20 memory from them. Other than that my contact with them has been minimal. They own pdp8.com - they had some nice stuff, including a nice pdp-15 with drum IIRC. Think Robert Garner has that one now... The Alto restoration is one *very* impressive bit of work, they're serious hardware engineers - seem to recall they also (according to rumour) had something to do with Paul Allen and his KL... Mike http://www.corestore.org From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Aug 2 09:20:18 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16654.15442.46000.136372@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16654.15442.46000.136372@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: > > John> Computer-based ramndom number seed generation: > > John> I may at some point remember the machine/manufacturer, but I > John> *do* recall tha one (perhaps Gummint-oriented?) device used a > John> standard radio buried in it somewhere, tuned to a local > John> station, the output of which was digitized and the seeds > John> extracted from that... as I write this, IISTR that it was some > John> kind of crypto-thingy... > > That would be quite a bad idea. I'm sure the spooks are smarter than > that. And just why would that be a bad idea? Remember this was back some years - your glib "these days" doesn't apply to 'them days'... in the 60's and 70's it was not trivial to develop 'real' random numbers, so various means were used to sample a physical source or 'randomness'. I have an audio whit noise generator (Grayson Stadler) that uses a 6CB4 tube with a small bar magnet in proximity to the envelope - this exacerbates the transit noise of the tube and produses a very nice 5 Htz to about 50 kHtz stream of chaos. For many years, going back into the late 40s', microwave noise sources (for testing and calibration) were made with a 2-foot flourescent lamp mounted transversly at an acute angle through a section of waveguide - when the microwaves passed thru the excited mercury vapor, the resultant harmonics went into the gigahertz range... Sheeshe! Kids nowadays! Why when *I* was your age,,, Cheers John From jlewczyk at speakeasy.net Mon Aug 2 09:28:56 2004 From: jlewczyk at speakeasy.net (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021235.i72CZebb074593@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi Chandra, I believe there is a project called "altogether" by Eric Smith which is an attempt to emulate the Alto under Unix and X-Windows. http://altogether.brouhaha.com/ - John jlewczyk@speakeasy.net From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 2 09:31:58 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Cabletron MMAC-M8FNB Message-ID: <200408021031.58253.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 it is described as Cabletron MMAC-M8FNB chassis populated with 1 MODMIM-4, 1 CRM-2E router, 1 TPRMIM-36 10MB ethernet and an EMM-E6 module. Is this something that might be of interest? All Google seems to find is people selling them. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBDlBeLPrIaE/xBZARAtKJAJ0bIlh8MSyHjkjdPbanO+4+FT+KTgCgkR6J tgIpMwb2wT8LazrksT4pcqM= =uUVQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From spedraja at ono.com Mon Aug 2 09:54:40 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: Side stand for IBM AT References: <410DBA9C.3080406@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002501c478a0$a5bf61a0$0f02a8c0@WorkGroup> I have only one, but I live in Spain. And it's BIG really. Cheers Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: Chad Fernandez To: ; Discussion@internet1.net :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 5:53 AM Subject: Wanted: Side stand for IBM AT > Hi Everyone, > > Does anybody have an extra side stand for the IBM AT that they would > part with? I have never seen one, but it's my understanding that IBM > made one for the AT, but most people didn't use them. > > I'm willing to pay shipping plus a reasonable amount for one in good shape. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From spedraja at ono.com Mon Aug 2 10:01:46 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Cabletron MMAC-M8FNB References: <200408021031.58253.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <003301c478a1$a16783c0$0f02a8c0@WorkGroup> We used Cabletron chassis in my job until just one year ago. In fact we had four of them for the Central Services, distributed between two buildings. This chassis let us to join Ethernet and Token-Ring network (it worked like a bridge), and I suppose it permits to add some other network cards. It can be managed by TCP/IP, SNMP, etc. From my point of view is a good item, but heavy and perhaps a little outdated. We changed to Cisco to manage items with the same OS and way of work, but Cabletron worked very well until its retirement. Cheers Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Kenzie To: Classiccmp Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: Cabletron MMAC-M8FNB > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > it is described as > > > Cabletron MMAC-M8FNB chassis populated with 1 MODMIM-4, 1 CRM-2E > router, 1 TPRMIM-36 10MB ethernet and an EMM-E6 module. > > Is this something that might be of interest? All Google seems to find is > people selling them. > > > > - -- > > Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 > > Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFBDlBeLPrIaE/xBZARAtKJAJ0bIlh8MSyHjkjdPbanO+4+FT+KTgCgkR6J > tgIpMwb2wT8LazrksT4pcqM= > =uUVQ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 2 10:07:37 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Altair Repair Message-ID: <410E58B9.F5CCFF09@rain.org> I fired up an Altair and found it didn't behave as it should (tested with MITs and Polymorphic CPU cards.) Doing an "Examine" does not load the switch settings into the program counter. Doing an "Examine Next" seems to increment the program counter by 3. The preceeding was done with and without a memory card. I tried the "Deposit" but had no way to see what I was doing since the switch settings apparently weren't being loaded. Finally, the "Deposit Next" increments the LEDs. One other strangeness, when I connect the Data Display cable to the MITS card, the "Stop" switch ceases to function although the "Start" seems to work fine. I do have the schematics and will start to dig into it later this morning. BUT, I was hoping to short circuit some of the troubleshooting time if someone on the list has experienced something like this :). Thanks! From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 2 10:08:47 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Electronic Barn closing References: <20040802050123.484.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004001c478a2$9e8a10e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > http://www.greenbrookelectronics.com/ - - - > Found a few things besides the place in Green Brook: > > --- http://www.clarkreiss.com/CR_Products.htm > --- http://www.edlieelectronics.com/ > --- http://www.adc-ast.com/ > --- http://www.servosystems.com/ > --- http://www.herbach.com/ > --- http://www.industrialsurplus.com/ > --- http://www.vulcanscrap.com/ Has anybody gone to any of these places? I find I have to call in advance to make sure that they allow browsing, or even if they do over-the-counter sales at all. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 2 10:14:16 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: >I bought a Fujitsu 9.1GB 80 pin SCA drive and attempted to connect this to the >VAX via an 80 - 50 pin converted but the drive was not recognised properly by >either the boot rom or OpenVMS. A couple things are needed the main thing is that you need to be running a new enough version of OpenVMS for it to work fairly well with 3rd party drives. The other is that if you're using an SCA-to-50pin converter, the drive can't be to new. Apparently the latest SCSI drives don't like syncing down to Narrow SCSI :^( Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 2 10:49:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: References: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <200408021551.LAA22586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The other is that if you're using an SCA-to-50pin converter, the > drive can't be to new. Apparently the latest SCSI drives don't like > syncing down to Narrow SCSI :^( Yeah...I just recently got an IBM drive that has absolutely refused to work on any narrow SCSI bus I've tried it on. It works fine on a peecee with an LVD SCSI card in it - but it isn't the peecee that I want to use it on, but rather a SS20. *growl* I used to think that "SCSI is SCSI is SCSI". I think this is the first case I've met where a SCSI device doesn't Just Work.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 2 11:02:05 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? References: <16654.15442.46000.136372@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16654.25981.222985.329264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: John> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: >> John> Computer-based ramndom number seed generation: >> John> I may at some point remember the machine/manufacturer, but I John> *do* recall tha one (perhaps Gummint-oriented?) device used a John> standard radio buried in it somewhere, tuned to a local John> station, the output of which was digitized and the seeds John> extracted from that... as I write this, IISTR that it was some John> kind of crypto-thingy... >> That would be quite a bad idea. I'm sure the spooks are smarter >> than that. John> And just why would that be a bad idea? Remember this was back John> some years - your glib "these days" doesn't apply to 'them John> days'... in the 60's and 70's it was not trivial to develop John> 'real' random numbers, so various means were used to sample a John> physical source or 'randomness'. I have an audio whit noise John> generator (Grayson Stadler) that uses a 6CB4 tube with a small John> bar magnet in proximity to the envelope - this exacerbates the John> transit noise of the tube and produses a very nice 5 Htz to John> about 50 kHtz stream of chaos. Htz? You mean Hz? Noise diodes have been around for many decades, and certainly those would serve. So would resistors, and plenty of other things. What I was reacting to is the notion of a receiver "tuned to a local station". A radio signal is quite far from random, and if a cryppie were to use such a thing for generating keys he would be at serious risk of a successful attack. Now if you were to take a radio tuned to an unused channel, that would be somewhat better. But still it would be subject to unexpected biases from stations far away. A self-contained device such as an electrical noise source is much simpler AND it is much easier to prove that it has the right properties. By the way, re the AT&T random number generator whose properties were unproven -- these days, most of the designers of these devices *are* prepared to show adequate proof, as well they should of course. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 11:40:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? Message-ID: <200408021640.JAA26816@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" > >> My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by >> using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive >> material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm >> not sure anyone ever produced one. > >I *think* some military crypto gear did things link this, but I am not >sure. > >I know that AT&T once marketted a true random bitstream chip using a bunch >of unstable oscillators. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org > > Hi It has been shown that if you loosely couple three oscillators they will produce chaotic periods. I've also seen that when a zener diode is around 7.2V it is especially noisy. This has been used to produce many types of random noise, including white and pink noise for special purposes. Most silicon transistors will zener in this region if back biased, base to emitter. I ones made a wave sound simulator using both the zener and the oscillator principles. Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Aug 2 11:57:33 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16654.25981.222985.329264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16654.15442.46000.136372@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16654.25981.222985.329264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Htz? You mean Hz? Nits? Are we going to have a spirited discussion or are you going to pick nits? (While you're at it, might as well bag on my execrable spelling and egregious transposition errors, all firmly rooted in slowly advancing presbyopia and the need for (yet another) set of trifocals.) I have to force myself not to write cps, or Kc, or Mc... > > What I was reacting to is the notion of a receiver "tuned to a local > station". A radio signal is quite far from random, and if a cryppie > were to use such a thing for generating keys he would be at serious > risk of a successful attack. If sampled at 'occasional' intervals, and the resultant digitized samples are averaged and truncated, one approaches a fine approximation of statistical chaos. I'm not saying it's the most efficient, or even sorta practical, way to generate a random string of numbers, but it *was* interesting, and it bore upon the topic of this list, and the discussion at hand. > > Now if you were to take a radio tuned to an unused channel, that would > be somewhat better. But still it would be subject to unexpected > biases from stations far away. A self-contained device such as an > electrical noise source is much simpler AND it is much easier to prove > that it has the right properties. > > By the way, re the AT&T random number generator whose properties were > unproven -- these days, most of the designers of these devices *are* > prepared to show adequate proof, as well they should of course. Citation? URL? This is not familiar to me. > All this is rapidly descending into Deceased Equine Flagellation... the points are evident that it is possible to feed a random number generation system with various chaotic signals derived from various well-known processes, and derive therefrom a suitably "random" series of as-unrelated-as-possible numeric values..... Cheerz John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 12:03:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Altair Repair Message-ID: <200408021703.KAA26828@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >I fired up an Altair and found it didn't behave as it should (tested >with MITs and Polymorphic CPU cards.) Doing an "Examine" does not load >the switch settings into the program counter. Doing an "Examine Next" >seems to increment the program counter by 3. The preceeding was done >with and without a memory card. I tried the "Deposit" but had no way to >see what I was doing since the switch settings apparently weren't being >loaded. Finally, the "Deposit Next" increments the LEDs. One other >strangeness, when I connect the Data Display cable to the MITS card, the >"Stop" switch ceases to function although the "Start" seems to work >fine. > >I do have the schematics and will start to dig into it later this >morning. BUT, I was hoping to short circuit some of the troubleshooting >time if someone on the list has experienced something like this :). >Thanks! > Hi Marvin It sounds like the front panel isn't jamming the correct instructions onto the data bus ( or something on the data lines of the CPU is loading one of the data lines ). The front panel works by either jamming a JMP ( 0C3h ) instruction onto the CPU's bus or a NOP ( 00h ). This allows for both changing address and incrementing the address. The front panel can then override the read and write operations to the physical memory during the increment. The most common problem I've seen that causes similar effects is that there are several 7406 ( or similar OC buffers ) connected from the front panel to the data lines of the CPU. One or more of these devices has failed ( I suspect this is mostly do to some overlap timing and stressing of the parts but that is the way they are designed ). One other thing that I've seen is that the data lines going to the CPU from the front panel were wired upside down. This is that cable between the two. ( soemone put the cable together backwards ) Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Aug 2 12:03:39 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <200408021640.JAA26816@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408021640.JAA26816@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Hi > It has been shown that if you loosely couple three oscillators > they will produce chaotic periods. I've also seen that when > a zener diode is around 7.2V it is especially noisy. This > has been used to produce many types of random noise, including > white and pink noise for special purposes. Most silicon transistors > will zener in this region if back biased, base to emitter. I > ones made a wave sound simulator using both the zener and > the oscillator principles. > Dwight I have tuned up various modules on a Moog 55 IIIC+ modular synthesiser and (finally)obtained the classic bifurcation plot. Somehow I can't get the ARP 2600 to do this yet, but it's probably a simultaneous lack of patience and precision calibration. I have the 'flickering neon candle lamp' device hooked up now to trigger the ARP, also I derive a MIDI signal from it and feed that into Reaktor, a software modular synth of fairly extensive capability. But we're getting out near the Bounds of Topic, I theenk. Cheers John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 12:08:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available Message-ID: <200408021708.KAA26832@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "SHAUN RIPLEY" > >I copied the Z8038 part from the book "The Z8000 >microprocessor, A design handbook" by Bradly, K. >Fawcett. I remember that somebody on the list tried to >make a collection of zilog chip documents. I'd like to >mail the 20 pages to him. Please send me email if it >is you. Thanks. > > Hi Shaun Does your book describe the floating point processor ( that was never released ). I was wondering because the CP/M-8000 that I've been playing with ( accually the C compiler ) uses the floating point processors instructions and then exception traps them to execute the floating point code. The format for using these traps would be the same as was expected for the real FPU. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 12:08:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random number generation, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802093302.04ef7c50@enigma> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Dan Veeneman wrote: > At 12:44 AM 8/2/04, you wrote: > > > My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by > > > using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive > > > material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm > > > not sure anyone ever produced one. > > > >I *think* some military crypto gear did things link this, but I am not > >sure. > > There's a "hassle factor" in selling radioactive devices to the military, > but it's easily done these days at home. Here's what I do: > > http://www.etoan.com/random-number-generation/index.html Wow, very cool! Sure beats my idea for mounting the detector circuitry to a badge that you can then wear on your lapel in public to annoy smokers :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 2 12:11:05 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: <200408021551.LAA22586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 02, 2004 11:49:37 AM Message-ID: <200408021711.i72HB5rG003120@onyx.spiritone.com> > Yeah...I just recently got an IBM drive that has absolutely refused to > work on any narrow SCSI bus I've tried it on. It works fine on a > peecee with an LVD SCSI card in it - but it isn't the peecee that I > want to use it on, but rather a SS20. *growl* > > I used to think that "SCSI is SCSI is SCSI". I think this is the first > case I've met where a SCSI device doesn't Just Work.... I just dug up the specific message where David Turner mentions this on comp.os.vms: > You can do this with OLDER UW and U2 Disks U3 Drives do not like being > bumped down to 8Bit > On many wide drives, you need to diable FW negotiation (most IBM drives > have this) Compaq used IBM drives in their faster storageworks narrow > canisters with the FW NEgotiation disabled by default Since I've planned on eventually having to use newer SCSI drives on my PDP-11's and even my VAXen, this was rather disturbing news. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 12:12:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802094719.04f02db0@enigma> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Dan Veeneman wrote: > They are in the same building as NTE Electronics, the huge parts > distributor /semiconductor re-brander. Yoneh told me some months ago > that he was looking to get out of the junk business, as it has markedly > died off; kids don't build anything anymore, and the margins are down, > and good stuff is hard to get. That's pretty much the same siutation with most electronics surplus stores. It's a sad fact: kids are, indeed, not building anything anymore. We're raising a nation of end-users, thanks to a number of factors, all boiling down to selfish indifference. > He's been complaining about declining sales for several years. I notice > fewer customers, too. Last month he said that he was selling the > inventory to a place in California, as a lot, after he sells off > whatever else he can. Might be Halted, don't know. Either them or Excess Solutions. They both seem to be going pretty strong, and I hope to have them around for a long while yet as they have stuff you just can't find anywhere else on the planet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 12:14:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Mike Ross wrote: > The Alto restoration is one *very* impressive bit of work, they're serious > hardware engineers - seem to recall they also (according to rumour) had > something to do with Paul Allen and his KL... They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence is accurate. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 12:19:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Electronic Barn closing In-Reply-To: <004001c478a2$9e8a10e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, John Allain wrote: > > http://www.greenbrookelectronics.com/ > - - - > > Found a few things besides the place in Green Brook: > > > > --- http://www.clarkreiss.com/CR_Products.htm > > --- http://www.edlieelectronics.com/ > > --- http://www.adc-ast.com/ > > --- http://www.servosystems.com/ > > --- http://www.herbach.com/ > > --- http://www.industrialsurplus.com/ > > --- http://www.vulcanscrap.com/ > > Has anybody gone to any of these places? > I find I have to call in advance to make sure that they allow > browsing, or even if they do over-the-counter sales at all. I looked at a few of these. They're mostly just commercial industrial equipment sellers, not electronics surplus. Edlie Electronics and Herbach & Rademan look promising. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 12:23:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, John Lawson wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > > > Htz? You mean Hz? > > Nits? Are we going to have a spirited discussion or are you going to pick > nits? And if you are going to pick nits, can you please save them in a bag and send them to me? I like to sprinkle them on my breakfast eggs. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 12:31:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Looking for old data information Message-ID: <200408021731.KAA26910@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Honniball" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>>From: "John Honniball" >>>I have a book by Steve Money called "Microprocessor Data Book", and >>>it lists three Rockwell 4-bit chips, the MM75, MM76 and MM78. They >>>make up the PPS4/1 Series. Are they the ones you are interested in? >... >> Hard to say. The chips I have all have inhouse numbers on them. >> It sure does sound like the right stuff though. The chips are >> all 42 pin spider chips. > >There's no detail about the packaging, but only one chip has 42 pins. >The MM78 (and MM78LA) is listed as "42-pin quad in line". That chip >has 2k of 8-bit ROM, 128x4 bit RAM and 31 I/O lines. Instructions >are 8 bits wide, but the ALU and memory are 4-bit. Maximum clock >frequency is 100kHz. > >-- >John Honniball >coredump@gifford.co.uk > Hi John That would most likely be part of what I'm looking for. "42-pin quad in line" sounded like how they might describe the spider chips. I suspect that this is what most of the IC's are on this unit. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 12:35:10 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Looking for old data information Message-ID: <200408021735.KAA26916@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steven I suspect that the MM78 is at least one of the parts that I'm looking for. I regret that the actual chips have no information on them other than the date code and the in-house part number. There are no generic part numbers on their labels. Dwight >From: steven > > >I have a 1984 Rockwell Data Book with lots of ICs in >it - I will need a part number. > >Steve. > > >--- John Honniball wrote: > >> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> > Does anyone have any data books with the specs >> > and signals for Rockwell's 4 bit processors that >> > they made during the late 70's? These were in a >> > funny flat pack called spider chips. >> >> I have a book by Steve Money called "Microprocessor >> Data Book", and >> it lists three Rockwell 4-bit chips, the MM75, MM76 >> and MM78. They >> make up the PPS4/1 Series. Are they the ones you >> are interested in? >> >> -- >> John Honniball >> coredump@gifford.co.uk >> >> > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 2 12:37:50 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Altair Repair References: <200408021703.KAA26828@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410E7BEE.4BEB876B@rain.org> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > It sounds like the front panel isn't jamming the correct > instructions onto the data bus ( or something on the data > lines of the CPU is loading one of the data lines ). > The front panel works by either jamming a JMP ( 0C3h ) instruction > onto the CPU's bus or a NOP ( 00h ). This allows for both changing > address and incrementing the address. The front panel can then > override the read and write operations to the physical memory > during the increment. Since this does appear to be related to the databus and getting the correct information to the CPU, I'll start by checking to make sure the JMP and NOP instructions are getting out on the bus. What is interesting is that the switch settings seem to have almost no effect on anything until I turn them all on. But the JMP and NOP buffers could well cause some problems. Wish I could find my Jade Board quickly :). Right now, I'm using a Bob Mullens S-100 extender card with the High, Low, Pulse LED indicators ... may have to actually fire up the scope if I don't find out the problem fairly soon. > The most common problem I've seen that causes similar effects > is that there are several 7406 ( or similar OC buffers ) connected > from the front panel to the data lines of the CPU. One or more > of these devices has failed ( I suspect this is mostly do to > some overlap timing and stressing of the parts but that is > the way they are designed ). One other thing that I've seen > is that the data lines going to the CPU from the front panel > were wired upside down. This is that cable between the two. > ( soemone put the cable together backwards ) This is one of the original style Altairs where the wiring between the 4 slot motherboards and the front panel are all done with discrete wires. Makes me wonder if the 2 MHz clock speed is too fast :). I've checked out all the data and control lines from the front panel to the bus and everything seems to be correct. I did notice that the Phase 2 clock doesn't register on the Bob Mullens card, but that may be because the pulse length is too short for the card to read (123 w/ 10 pf cap and about 6.? K resistor.) Thanks! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 2 12:38:21 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408021038.21140.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Robert Garner also has a working Alto... Lyle On Monday 02 August 2004 10:14, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Mike Ross wrote: > > The Alto restoration is one *very* impressive bit of work, they're > > serious hardware engineers - seem to recall they also (according to > > rumour) had something to do with Paul Allen and his KL... > > They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I > don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence > is accurate. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomhudson at execpc.com Mon Aug 2 12:38:47 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410E7C27.5010404@execpc.com> To be honest, I've never heard of any other computers using 8-tracks as storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable! -Tom Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I >always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them >but until now I've never known of any examples. > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 12:53:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I >don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence >is accurate. Hi I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left anywhere. ) 2. SIM-4 4004 development system ( most likely fewer than 30 left. Running. I only know of 2 others. ) 3. Olivetti M-20 ( Few in the US but maybe a couple hundred in Europe. Z8000 processor. Runs ) 4. Jupiter Ace ( Several hundred most likely exist but unusual in that it had Forth in ROM. Runs ) 5. NC4000 Delta Board ( Most likely only 100 around but most have no idea as to the collectable nature. These might be found in embedded system. These are unique in that they have the Forth processor on them that was designed by NOVIX and Chuck Moore. A 4 Mhz processor could run rings around a 33MHz 80386 of its time. Things like sorting 1000 integers in 19.2ms ) Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Aug 2 12:53:38 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > And if you are going to pick nits, can you please save them in a bag and > send them to me? I like to sprinkle them on my breakfast eggs. Damn, that's just lousy. Cheers John From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 2 12:58:02 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Random number generation, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802093302.04ef7c50@enigma> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802093302.04ef7c50@enigma> Message-ID: <83ac43d84c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <6.0.3.0.2.20040802093302.04ef7c50@enigma> Dan Veeneman wrote: > There's a "hassle factor" in selling radioactive devices to the military, > but it's easily done these days at home. Here's what I do: > > http://www.etoan.com/random-number-generation/index.html Well, it beats my "reverse biased 2N3904 with amplifier" RNG in terms of coolness factor , but my '3904 RNG will probably generate more random numbers per second. Feed them into a bias-filter (if TWOBITS = 11 or TWOBITS = 00 then DISCARD, else TAKE HIGH BIT), then a SHA-1 hash. Collect a few hashes and make an RSA key with them :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'm no stranger, just a friend you haven't met... From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Aug 2 13:03:59 2004 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris@direcway.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: Bimodal error distribution? Message-ID: <515754ec42.4ec4251575@direcway.com> >Since actual error distributions on crystals are bimodal, not Gaussian, you would >normally get just about that error. This sounds interesting. Any ideas why? -Charles From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 2 13:05:11 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:45 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410E8257.5CC26007@rain.org> Probably the rarest computer in my collection is a Japanese version of the Altair that was given to my by the owner of the company when I was over in Japan. I liked it so much that I had it mostly assembled except for soldering by the time I got off the plane :). Other rare stuff would probably include an 8" drive Polymorphic computer. "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I > >don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence > >is accurate. > > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know > of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left > anywhere. ) > 2. SIM-4 4004 development system ( most likely fewer than 30 left. Running. > I only know of 2 others. ) > 3. Olivetti M-20 ( Few in the US but maybe a couple hundred in Europe. > Z8000 processor. Runs ) > 4. Jupiter Ace ( Several hundred most likely exist but unusual in that > it had Forth in ROM. Runs ) > 5. NC4000 Delta Board ( Most likely only 100 around but most have no > idea as to the collectable nature. These might be > found in embedded system. These are unique in that they > have the Forth processor on them that was designed by > NOVIX and Chuck Moore. A 4 Mhz processor could run rings > around a 33MHz 80386 of its time. Things like sorting > 1000 integers in 19.2ms ) > Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 13:06:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Altair Repair Message-ID: <200408021806.LAA26932@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Marvin There is a front panel schematic, someplace on the net but I don't recall where. There was a CDROM set released that had it as well ( as I recall ). You should also note that any card with DRAM on it is most likely not going to work unless things are matched with the CPU card. Most early machines did different things for the refresh clocking. I know that I added a kludge to my Poly88 CPU card to get the EconoRam board to work with it, that I got from SD Sales. Other DRAM boards have different setups. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >"Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >> It sounds like the front panel isn't jamming the correct >> instructions onto the data bus ( or something on the data >> lines of the CPU is loading one of the data lines ). >> The front panel works by either jamming a JMP ( 0C3h ) instruction >> onto the CPU's bus or a NOP ( 00h ). This allows for both changing >> address and incrementing the address. The front panel can then >> override the read and write operations to the physical memory >> during the increment. > >Since this does appear to be related to the databus and getting the >correct information to the CPU, I'll start by checking to make sure the >JMP and NOP instructions are getting out on the bus. What is interesting >is that the switch settings seem to have almost no effect on anything >until I turn them all on. But the JMP and NOP buffers could well cause >some problems. Wish I could find my Jade Board quickly :). Right now, >I'm using a Bob Mullens S-100 extender card with the High, Low, Pulse >LED indicators ... may have to actually fire up the scope if I don't >find out the problem fairly soon. > >> The most common problem I've seen that causes similar effects >> is that there are several 7406 ( or similar OC buffers ) connected >> from the front panel to the data lines of the CPU. One or more >> of these devices has failed ( I suspect this is mostly do to >> some overlap timing and stressing of the parts but that is >> the way they are designed ). One other thing that I've seen >> is that the data lines going to the CPU from the front panel >> were wired upside down. This is that cable between the two. >> ( soemone put the cable together backwards ) > >This is one of the original style Altairs where the wiring between the 4 >slot motherboards and the front panel are all done with discrete wires. >Makes me wonder if the 2 MHz clock speed is too fast :). I've checked >out all the data and control lines from the front panel to the bus and >everything seems to be correct. I did notice that the Phase 2 clock >doesn't register on the Bob Mullens card, but that may be because the >pulse length is too short for the card to read (123 w/ 10 pf cap and >about 6.? K resistor.) > >Thanks! > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 2 13:19:50 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Looking for help with V-marc 88a Message-ID: <013901c478bd$4e462b30$80406b43@66067007> I need the power supply for a V-marc 88a or the information about it so that I can get the computer tested that I have. Also missing the plastic cover for the printer area if anyone has an extra. Thanks in advance. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 2 13:15:19 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <410E8257.5CC26007@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Aug 2, 04 11:05:11 am Message-ID: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com> And thusly Marvin Johnston spake: > > > > > Hi > > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > Mine would be a PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard. :) Cheers, Bryan Pope From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 13:30:33 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Bimodal error distribution? Message-ID: <200408021830.LAA26955@clulw009.amd.com> >From: charlesmorris@direcway.com > >>Since actual error distributions on crystals are bimodal, not Gaussian, you would >>normally get just about that error. > >This sounds interesting. Any ideas why? > >-Charles > What Why? Bimodel is quite common for tuned circuits that are lightly loaded. Still, if one goes out on the skirts of the curves, you'll be as close to Gaussian as you'd ever want to be. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 2 13:31:01 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410E8865.6090003@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know > of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left > anywhere. ) Hmm, I want to hear more of this mini. Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 2 13:52:31 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: Message-ID: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Electronics Barn closing > That's pretty much the same siutation with most electronics surplus > stores. It's a sad fact: kids are, indeed, not building anything anymore. > We're raising a nation of end-users, thanks to a number of factors, all > boiling down to selfish indifference. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I think there are alot of kids designing websites, programming, hacking, and making the occasional virus. The fact that they put away the soldering iron and took up the keyboard doesnt mean they are selfish or not creative, they just get into different tools then older people who didn't have a computer to play with when they grew up. When I was young I went out and purchased some ram chips to fix my dead C64 (was stupid and touched a staticy TV while my other hand was on the keyboard, ESD), equipment was expensive. Today if a pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other electronics. Electronics repair places were the first to disapear, makes sense that the surplus stores that supplied those buisinesses are next in line to go. Even Radioshack does not carry much in the way of electronics parts these days. From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Aug 2 13:57:15 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > That's pretty much the same siutation with most electronics surplus > > stores. It's a sad fact: kids are, indeed, not building anything anymore. > > We're raising a nation of end-users, thanks to a number of factors, all > > boiling down to selfish indifference. > I think there are alot of kids designing websites, programming, hacking, and > making the occasional virus. The fact that they put away the soldering iron > and took up the keyboard doesnt mean they are selfish or not creative, they > just get into different tools then older people who didn't have a computer > to play with when they grew up. When I was young I went out and purchased > some ram chips to fix my dead C64 (was stupid and touched a staticy TV while > my other hand was on the keyboard, ESD), equipment was expensive. Today if a > pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to > even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other > electronics. Electronics repair places were the first to disapear, makes > sense that the surplus stores that supplied those buisinesses are next in > line to go. Even Radioshack does not carry much in the way of electronics > parts these days. True, although there is a definitive shift towards software creativity, rather than hardware. I am a borderline case.. when I was in uni. I was playing with hardware ("Fred? Yeah, he's here.. look for two short legs sticking out from under one of those PDP-11 racks down the hall.. those are likely to be his.") but most of my classmates were doing software-only, and, which is I assume what Sellam was pointing out, they did not CARE what hardware their stuff was on. These days, kids get taught Programming course in *java* .. when I asked several teaching professors about that, they claimed this is what both the industry (which will eventually take in those newly graduated students..) *and* the kids themselves want.. they want to learn about things, but not tied to any specific hardware platform. He got red in the face when I asked him how he's teaching kids any base OS principles such as state-saving and interrupting. Meaning, kids don't go there, pretty much. The next major version of a known OS will probably be without interrupts, as none of the programmers will have any knowledge about them anymore ;-) --f From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 2 14:01:53 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Aug 2, 04 02:52:31 pm Message-ID: <200408021901.PAA28915@wordstock.com> And thusly Teo Zenios spake: > > line to go. Even Radioshack does not carry much in the way of electronics > parts these days. > They did get a cool new electornics kit recently entitled "What's a Microcontroller" where you program a PIC. Cheers, Bryan Pope From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 2 14:03:41 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> <410E8257.5CC26007@rain.org> Message-ID: <01a401c478c3$6d3a2720$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Dwight wrote... > > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > > rarest computers in their collections. Not the rarest hardware... but perhaps rarest running software... HP2000/Access TimeShared BASIC Dual bay cabinet, 7970E mag tape, 2748B paper tape reader, 2895B paper tape punch, 2100A cpu with 32K and floating point, 2100S cpu with 32K and IOP firmware, 12920Mux, 7900A disc drive, and 7906D disc drive. I'm in the process of converting it from dual 2100's to dual 21MX/E's. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:09:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410E7C27.5010404@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote: > To be honest, I've never heard of any other computers using 8-tracks as > storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no > rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable! Right, which makes it all the more surprising. Was it reliable? Did it have a directory structure of any sort? Did it store multiple programs/data per track? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:11:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I > >don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence > >is accurate. > > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know > of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left > anywhere. ) > 2. SIM-4 4004 development system ( most likely fewer than 30 left. Running. > I only know of 2 others. ) > 3. Olivetti M-20 ( Few in the US but maybe a couple hundred in Europe. > Z8000 processor. Runs ) > 4. Jupiter Ace ( Several hundred most likely exist but unusual in that > it had Forth in ROM. Runs ) > 5. NC4000 Delta Board ( Most likely only 100 around but most have no > idea as to the collectable nature. These might be > found in embedded system. These are unique in that they > have the Forth processor on them that was designed by > NOVIX and Chuck Moore. A 4 Mhz processor could run rings > around a 33MHz 80386 of its time. Things like sorting > 1000 integers in 19.2ms ) Is there a limit to the length of the list we can post? :) I'd have to go through my warehouse and refresh my memory with what all I have that I consider truly "rare" but I'm sure I've got at least a couple dozen that fit the category. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:18:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <410E8865.6090003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > > > 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know > > of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left > > anywhere. ) > > Hmm, I want to hear more of this mini. Here's my lame, unfinished, error-laden Nicolet 1080 page that I started in June of 1998 and will probably never finish. http://www.vintage.org/nicolet/nicolet.htm It shows pictures and has general information, so enough to answer your most basic questions. It's a cool machine. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 2 14:21:02 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And just why would that be a bad idea? Remember this was back some > years - your glib "these days" doesn't apply to 'them days'... in the > 60's and 70's it was not trivial to develop 'real' random numbers, so > various means were used to sample a physical source or 'randomness'. I > have an audio whit noise generator (Grayson Stadler) that uses a 6CB4 tube > with a small bar magnet in proximity to the envelope - this exacerbates > the transit noise of the tube and produses a very nice 5 Htz to about 50 > kHtz stream of chaos. This is pretty standard stuff in the military ECM world (I think the O-202/ALA-7 pulse generator works the same way, early B-52 era stuff). In fact, some relatively normal tubes were made for this trick. I found my box of phototube noise generators, pulled out of WW2 jammers. Cheap. Email if interested. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 2 14:26:17 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Bimodal error distribution? References: <515754ec42.4ec4251575@direcway.com> Message-ID: <16654.38233.867382.40075@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "charlesmorris" == charlesmorris writes: >> Since actual error distributions on crystals are bimodal, not >> Gaussian, you would normally get just about that error. charlesmorris> This sounds interesting. Any ideas why? Sure. Resistors are the same for the same reason: the manufacturing process trims them, and when the measurement says the thing is in spec, the trim stops. So you tend to get values close to the tolerance limits. Another mechanism that produces this: if you sort devices into several bins according to how tight the tolerances are, you end up with a hole in the middle of the distribution because all those parts go into the tighter tolerance (higher price) bin. paul From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:25:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > That's pretty much the same siutation with most electronics surplus > > stores. It's a sad fact: kids are, indeed, not building anything anymore. > > We're raising a nation of end-users, thanks to a number of factors, all > > boiling down to selfish indifference. > > I think there are alot of kids designing websites, programming, hacking, and > making the occasional virus. The fact that they put away the soldering iron > and took up the keyboard doesnt mean they are selfish or not creative, they I wasn't talking about the kids. The kids are all right. It's the adults that bother me. > my other hand was on the keyboard, ESD), equipment was expensive. Today if a > pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to > even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other This is the biggest aspect of the problem. But if that's all it was, it would be easy to solve. The main issues are that we have a) dumbed-down school and educational requirements, b) stifled creativity in ways too numerous to mention (i.e. kids being arrested for writing fantasy essays about killing other students, teachers, etc.), c) have gotten so busy in life that we have little spare time for hobbies, d) removed the hands-on science classes from school because of budgetary reasons, e) generally de-emphasized do-it-yourself and supplanted it with "Collect all 8! BUY ME NOW YOU MINDLESS CONSUMER!!" I'll bet an electronics surplus store would be very successful in a third-world but emerging country like China for instance. India for sure I'd imagine (John?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 2 14:27:07 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040802094719.04f02db0@enigma> Message-ID: > Guess it's public now. I know the proprietor, Yoneh, well. Been going > there since 1983. > A mixed bag, mostly PC parts and industrial leftovers at the component > level. Zillions of > Rs, Ls, Cs, Xtals, Xfmrs, etc. Almost nothing soldered together, just > parts, some > electromechanicals, but in depth. I can see why the place is closing - this stuff just doesn't sell at all. The stuff that does sell is the simple junk - connectors, terminal strips, switches, knobs, tube sockets, decent big chokes and plate transformers, some (few) tubes, some (fewer) semiconductors, meters, relays, high voltage oil caps, old tech manuals, capacitor mounting clamps. Probably a few more, but these are the "hot" items in my bins. Note that all of this stuff is mostly older, tube based stuff. A basic rule of thumb is that if mounts on a PC board, don't bother with it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.or From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 2 14:26:30 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091474790.5590.4.camel@dhcp-248098> On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 14:52, David V. Corbin wrote: > If we are in agreement the the original question really needs to be broken > down further... I do agree with your breakdown. > A) What was the first computer to make some use of a periodic signal to keep > a time/date that was synchronized with "wall time" [either in hardware or in > system software]? > > Or > > B) What was the first computer to make use of a device which could remain > synchronized to "wall time" even if the computer was not operational? ... Sellam will have to say whether these are the right questions, but I think you've got it as close as can be. With more precise questions the actual date(*) can be nailed to the floor, of at least a description of the hardware. (*) The usual industry vapor factor applies, YMMV. The Joint Computer Conference papers, if you swap transistors for VLSI, wrinkle paint for injected plastic, read the same as product flak of today,. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:25:26 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1091474726.23885.96.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 17:53, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list Hmm, likely most of us have some oddball stuff in our collections, much of which is probably so obscure that it means nothing to anyone else :-) Me, I mainly focus on Torch, RML and Acorn stuff these days, so off the top of my head: Acorn ABC 310 (one other known) Acorn ACW 210 (about ten survivors known) Acorn / BBC Domesday system (my guess is there's about ten still running) Acorn System 5 (maybe 20 or so left worldwide?) Torch Quad X (I don't know of any others left) Torch / Primagraphics workstation (again, I'm not aware of any more) Torch Triple X workstation (maybe 30 of those around?) RML 380Z CHAIN network server RML 480Z metal-cased system Others: GEC-badged Dragon 64 Tektronix XD88 Unix box (last other one I heard of still running was about four years ago) Apple /// (possibly lots worldwide; there don't seem to be many people this side of the pond who have seen one though) cheers Jules From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 2 14:32:21 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, picking the nit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nits? Are we going to have a spirited discussion or are you going to pick > nits? (While you're at it, might as well bag on my execrable spelling and > egregious transposition errors, all firmly rooted in slowly advancing > presbyopia and the need for (yet another) set of trifocals.) We are not picking nits - the math gets nasty. (a nit is a unit of information related to the bit - essentially a bit has 2 values, but a nit has e (2.8mumble) values. Go look it up if you don't believe me. I think it is an AT&T term, useful for random noise math stuff) William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 2 14:29:26 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> References: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: In message <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> "Teo Zenios" wrote: > I think there are alot of kids designing websites, programming, hacking, and > making the occasional virus. The fact that they put away the soldering iron > and took up the keyboard doesnt mean they are selfish or not creative, they > just get into different tools then older people who didn't have a computer > to play with when they grew up. I think I fall in to the former category - I do a lot of programming, mostly in C and assembler. On the other hand, I do like "getting my hands dirty" every now and again - my hardware repair skills need improvement, but I can build - or rather have built - a 6502-based computer from scratch and had it run code. Now I just need to find out why it's not running the BASIC interpreter properly - which means I'm going to need an ICE or a set of pods for my logic analyser :-/ > pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to > even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other > electronics. That is, IMO, the main problem today. People just throw things away, they're not repairable. Even my HP logic analyser is boardswap only - no schematics or anything like that are present in the service manual. Thankfully my Tektronix oscilloscope came with a service manual that included full schematics. Nice to know I can at least fix the scope if and when it fails. > Electronics repair places were the first to disapear, makes > sense that the surplus stores that supplied those buisinesses are next in > line to go. Even Radioshack does not carry much in the way of electronics > parts these days. I've started buying parts through some of the industrial electronics companies, e.g. Farnell and RS. Farnell have been pretty good, but RS weren't interested at all. I tried to place an order with them last year (about ?90 worth of stuff) and they refused to accept the order, despite the announcement of the closure of RS-Electromail that was published in EPE (including RS's "if you've got a credit card, we'll accept the order" spiel). Their loss, not mine. Maplin are going the same way as Tandy (RadioShack) - selling insanely overpriced computer components. They're OK for stuff like printer cables, certainly much better than PC World, but I wouldn't buy a CPU or anything like that from them. Their range of electronic components is so-so, and their discontinuation of basically the whole "Hardware and Mechanical" section of the catalogue was a bad move IMO. Still, at least they still sell heatshrink, IIRC... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI My other vehicle is a Galaxy Class Starship From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 2 14:30:09 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 04 12:25:42 pm Message-ID: <200408021930.PAA09203@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > > I'll bet an electronics surplus store would be very successful in a > third-world but emerging country like China for instance. India for sure > I'd imagine (John?) > They are... A person I know went into a Radio Shack in Dubai... The place sounded like how RS used to be. Cheers, Bryan Pope From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 2 14:33:48 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091475228.5590.12.camel@dhcp-248098> On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 15:32, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: re: computer 'subsystem' to produce clock time > Hmm, okay. Then I guess what we'd be looking for is some device that > keeps continuous time. ... It would just have to be a > combination of hardware and software that kept the current date in the IBM > 650. Are you looking exclusively at the IBM 650, or any computer? Does it have to be an 'automatic, electronic, digital, stored-program, computer'? Time-stamping of 'data' trivially dates to telegraph/teletype equipment -- I've seen stuff from the 1930's that does it. I know you don't want tty stuff but just to point out that the goal still seems vague to me. > > My favorite on the opposite end, is a random bit stream produced by > > using the pulses from a geiger counter (and associated radioactive > > material) to clock a long shift register. It's well-discussed, but I'm > > not sure anyone ever produced one. > > How fun. You'd have to shield it pretty heavily though or else your PC > would be glowing at night (talk about a case mod!) (Nahh, it could be a very small source, like a smoke detector. Not very dramatic though as a big scary lead coffin though :-) > Has anyone ever produced a random number generator that pulls it's "seed" > from the random background radiation you get on a TV set on a dead channel > (snow)? Oh I'm sure from the principal, yes, thermal noise would be a great source. Zener noise is easy too, not sure of it's distribution. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 2 14:35:54 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronic Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Edlie Electronics and Herbach & Rademan look promising. H&R are old timers - they were making power supplies for the military in World War 2. The great granddaddy of them all, Leeds, is still in operation in Brooklyn. The business is apparently doing pretty well. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 3 10:37:10 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: "Lost art" of old repairs knowledge. In-Reply-To: <410D14F0.2E2CB84E@rain.org> Message-ID: <20040802193615.CNFS9492.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Related to this classic computing, I'm working on a 1987 caravan with 2.2L carb, early type of computer primarily for spark timing advance (still using a distributor but only for timing pulses and a rotor. No mechanicals of any kind in that unit). and three emission vacuum soleoid valves. That's it. I have chrysler's service manual for this caravan but not that detailed like computer numbers and jets sizes in this regard. Every people I talked to does not like to deal or don't want to know with this "ancient" stuff. They rather buy another car or ditch the carb & computer and go with custom injection setup. This is all I have to deal with for time being and do repairs on this old stuff properly requires good information on this kind. Oh, I like this kind of challege and see what it was like in old days. I have contacted two carb rebuilders that specialize in rebuilding, turns out both doesn't know because one buys rebuilt carbs and resells it and sell rebuild kits that all. Other one does their work rebuilding them but doesn't have info on specific jet sizes for particular engine sizes and application use (caravan, Omni etc) The particular carb I'm working with is holley/weber 5220 non-feedback two barrel, secondary vacuum operated when enabled by computer when engine is hot (chrysler's) and were used in so many makers' cars from that era. If somebody have better source of info like jet size etc is much appreciated. Most of troubles is the people doesn't leave them alone, damaging carb in the process and not able to find the basic problem properly and not following the vacuum routing. Emission info routing sticker is right there on the underside of hood (bonnet for westerners). Cheers, Wizard From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 2 14:35:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091475320.5590.14.camel@dhcp-248098> On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 15:42, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Right. So what I'm trying to determine now is whether the IBM 650 had an > internal hardware counter facility that could be accessed from within > software to allow for keeping time. And if not, were there any clock > products IBM made that could interface to the 650 to generate the local > time/date upon being polled? Ahh, specifically 650 -- I'll ask around. (Wouldn't a hardware manual and/or programers manual help here?) From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 2 14:42:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: a classiccmp electronics project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091475748.5590.23.camel@dhcp-248098> > > A cute trick commonly used in the CP/M days (and later) was to put a > > boot EPROM board in the same (conflicting) memory space with RAM; ... > > EPROM board read access generated many wait states; the trick was the > > EPROM board ignored write cycles but the underlying RAM didn't. I forget > > how we handled the EPROM 'read' cycle but it was buss-safe (S100) and > > simple. On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 18:56, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I believe that was the "PHANTOM" line... pin 67 (according to _THE_S-100_ > AND_OTHER_MICRO_BUSES_ by Poe and Goodwin). Ugh! I remember now! >shudder< S100 interfacing dribbles back into brain... not good! :-) (I should go buy an S100 book though for reference. I have nothing from that era at all except one WordStar book.) From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:49:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds, was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, John Lawson wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > And if you are going to pick nits, can you please save them in a bag and > > send them to me? I like to sprinkle them on my breakfast eggs. > > > Damn, that's just lousy. I'm not bugged by it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:51:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > Guess it's public now. I know the proprietor, Yoneh, well. Been going > > there since 1983. > > A mixed bag, mostly PC parts and industrial leftovers at the component > > level. Zillions of > > Rs, Ls, Cs, Xtals, Xfmrs, etc. Almost nothing soldered together, just > > parts, some > > electromechanicals, but in depth. > > I can see why the place is closing - this stuff just doesn't sell at all. Yep, everyone who's doing stuff today does it mostly digital, and more over, increasingly with surface mount components. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 14:56:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091474726.23885.96.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, likely most of us have some oddball stuff in our collections, much > of which is probably so obscure that it means nothing to anyone else :-) True :) > Apple /// (possibly lots worldwide; there don't seem to be many people > this side of the pond who have seen one though) Very common. I recently picked up a Morrow Designs UNIX box that was never sold commercially (according to the guy I got it from). It had the same styling as the MD-2 CP/M desktop computer but was a bit larger. I can't imagine there being very many of those left :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 15:01:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091475228.5590.12.camel@dhcp-248098> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 15:32, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > re: computer 'subsystem' to produce clock time > > > Hmm, okay. Then I guess what we'd be looking for is some device that > > keeps continuous time. ... It would just have to be a > > combination of hardware and software that kept the current date in the IBM > > 650. > > Are you looking exclusively at the IBM 650, or any computer? Does it The overall discussion is very useful, but in my particular case, it needs to pertain specifically to the IBM 650, because the assertion at hand is that a document used to discredit a certain scientist's claim to a certain achievement has a date stamp on it that is claimed was produce by the IBM 650 using its internal clock feature. The 650 does not have such a feature inherently, so now I'm trying to determine if there was ever an adjunct product that IBM produced to give the 650 the ability to tell time. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 15:05:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091475320.5590.14.camel@dhcp-248098> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 15:42, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Right. So what I'm trying to determine now is whether the IBM 650 had an > > internal hardware counter facility that could be accessed from within > > software to allow for keeping time. And if not, were there any clock > > products IBM made that could interface to the 650 to generate the local > > time/date upon being polled? > > Ahh, specifically 650 -- I'll ask around. > > (Wouldn't a hardware manual and/or programers manual help here?) Indeed. I've read through the Manual of Operation for the 650 and it makes no mention or reference anywhere about any sort of timer feature at all. I starte dreading through the SOAP manual but I don't expect to find anything. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spedraja at ono.com Mon Aug 2 15:09:35 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: HP2100 books References: <1091475320.5590.14.camel@dhcp-248098> Message-ID: <003601c478cc$a1f70b00$0f02a8c0@WorkGroup> I think it would be interesting don't leave to go these books: http://cgi.es.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5111921924&ssPageName= STRK:MEWA:IT ... mostly having in mind the hp2100 simulator from SIMH, or simply for play with any kind of real HP2100. Greetings Sergio From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 15:19:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <200408022019.NAA27101@clulw009.amd.com> Hi ben A good picture of it can be seen at: http://www.omahug.org/vcf40/v02.jpg ( the Wyse terminal is not original ) It was used as a processing unit for a nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometer. This did chemical analysis. The upper part of the panel is related to the data acquisition while the lower part is the blinking lights part. Mine has 12Kx20 of core but they also had a 24Kx20 setup with an expansion chassis. The 12K core comes in 3 stacks. Most used a hard disk but mine is floppy bases. I'm always looking for more programs to run on this ;) Sellam has another one of these and there is a fellow in England that has one as well. These are the only remaining machines that I am aware of. These were in competition with the Varian machines of the time. Nicolet was one of the last manufactures to make core bases processors and made processors for use on subs because of cores resistance to radiation. The instruction set is funny as well. It used the typical conditional skip instruction of the time but the ALU was interesting because it used a 5 port input. It has hardware for doing multiply and divide because it's primary output was the result of doing FFT's on the data input. Fast multiply and divide are desirable. I have running a BASIC ( with matrix operations ), an assembler, an editor and several games. I also have a floating point package as well and some diagnostic programs. Any more specific questions? Dwight >From: "ben franchuk" >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> Hi >> I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their >> rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list >> >> 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know >> of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left >> anywhere. ) > >Hmm, I want to hear more of this mini. >Ben. > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Aug 2 15:30:57 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? Message-ID: Caged human or graduate student doesn't count. Mike. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 2 14:15:25 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: <200408021551.LAA22586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <200408021551.LAA22586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040802211525.4a1cb550.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:49:37 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > Yeah...I just recently got an IBM drive that has absolutely refused to > work on any narrow SCSI bus I've tried it on. I had to set the "force single ended" and "disable wide" jumpers on an IBM disk to get it going on the narrow channel of my AlphaServer 2100... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 2 14:38:40 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040802213840.490fe481.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:53:15 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list Tektronix Multi User Software Developement Unit. A customized PDP-11/23 (Only the CPU card is from DEC.) that runs UNIX V7. Comes with M6800 and M68000 in circuit CPU emulator. AFAIK at leasst one list member owns a machine like this too. (I still need those stand alone tools disks... ;-) ) Unfortunately I don't own this machines: PC532: NS32532 CPU based AT form factor mainboard intended to run some sort of Unix. (It is supported by NetBSD.) Soled as a kit, less then 200 where produced. Symetrix 375: Half a VAX 11/750. Small desktop box intended to be an affordable Unix machine. AFAIK Jolitz (the one from UCB/BSD) was behind that project. Don't know how many where build, maybe a few hundred. Sun Ultra 1 PCI: Actually a prototype that never went into production, but some of them escaped from Sun. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 15:44:26 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040802134402.B14446@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Caged human or graduate student doesn't count. unless you have the original IBM invoice From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 2 16:17:48 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at "Aug 2, 4 10:53:15 am" Message-ID: <200408022117.OAA11044@floodgap.com> > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. In my personal possession, I'd have to say my Japanese units: a Commodore MAX Machine (in verrrry good shape, if I do say so myself), a Tomy Pyuuta, and a Tomy Pyuuta Mark II. I also own a Commodore 116, although that's more like exotic than abjectly rare. I also like to brag about my Commodore 128DCR. Sure, there's lots of 128DCRs, but this is only one with *this* specific shade of yellow plastic! Yeah! ;-) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- There's a sucker born every minute. -- P. T. Barnum ------------------------ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 2 16:18:55 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: Message-ID: <00c601c478d6$51570b50$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Electronics Barn closing > > my other hand was on the keyboard, ESD), equipment was expensive. Today if a > > pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to > > even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other > > This is the biggest aspect of the problem. But if that's all it was, it > would be easy to solve. The main issues are that we have a) dumbed-down > school and educational requirements, b) stifled creativity in ways too > numerous to mention (i.e. kids being arrested for writing fantasy essays > about killing other students, teachers, etc.), c) have gotten so busy in > life that we have little spare time for hobbies, d) removed the hands-on > science classes from school because of budgetary reasons, e) generally > de-emphasized do-it-yourself and supplanted it with "Collect all 8! BUY > ME NOW YOU MINDLESS CONSUMER!!" > > I'll bet an electronics surplus store would be very successful in a > third-world but emerging country like China for instance. India for sure > I'd imagine (John?) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival A) The school system has always been producing kids with the skills employers are demanding for the future workforce. The newest generation will have skills designed for the service industry which is where 80% of the jobs of today are. Why should Johnny go to tech school and spend $20,000 on loans to get an ITT tech degree and make $8 an hour when he can get just about the same rate moving boxes in a warehouse with nothing but a HS diploma. Accounting, law, business, and IT is where the money is to be made today, engineering and science along with programming is a waste of time. B) Society in general is 100% reactive, kids go to school and kill a few people so society clamps down with no tolerance school policies. Its the same with government, people hijack a few planes and fly them into a skyscraper and we pour billions of dollars to hassle passengers while doing nothing to seal our borders or even inspect the billions of packages that fly in our airplanes every year. C) I agree with what you said. Americans are the most overworked and have the least vacation time used then any other workforce in the industrial world (this does not include CEO's of course). D) I don't know if they are skimping in chemistry or physics in schools today since they are still college prep classes. Computers are probably pushed more today then when I was in school. Maybe they cut back on some woodshop and metalshop classes, I wouldn't know. I do know that a school district has to be on the verge of bankruptcy to get rid of football, baseball, and basketball since these activities draw in too many parents who do pay local taxes. E) Do it yourself is still very big in the home renovating area, probably bigger then ever since a house is the biggest investment most people make and is still the largest sinkhole for money for repairs. Humans ARE mindless consumers. Go look at a 1930's mail-order catalog and see all the nonessential junk being sold to people even back then. The only difference is today that there are catalogs targeting the very poor just like there are always catalogs targeting the middle class and rich. Companies have done their homework on marketing their junk better, consumers have not changed at all. From swebb at cix.co.uk Mon Aug 2 16:28:00 2004 From: swebb at cix.co.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Senosa Directdata 640 Message-ID: I've been asked if I can find any information on the following, can anybody help? 'We acquired a number of years ago a Senosa Limited Directdata 640 Transmission Processor with Digico Teletype from a local company but it came with no information. Could you please point me in the right direction for some information about how these items work, date of production etc.' Simon Webb Curator, Museum of Computing www.museum-of-computing.org.uk Tel: 07939 582544 From vax3900 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 17:01:01 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040802220101.95018.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >They have a *very* well done restoration page. > Cool project! However, I > >don't believe their claim to have the only original > Alto left in existence > >is accurate. > > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list > consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my > list Mine is a vax 3900 (very common to you guys). Also I have a Modicon P230 Programmer (XT compatible portable computer with EGA amble mono monitor), but somebody 'upgraded' it to a 486. I will have a NEC v25 emulator (looks like a portable computer) if I buy it from a warehouse. vax, 3900 > > 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working > condition. Only know > of 2 others. I doubt there are > more than 10 left > anywhere. ) > 2. SIM-4 4004 development system ( most likely > fewer than 30 left. Running. > I only know of 2 others. ) > 3. Olivetti M-20 ( Few in the US but maybe a couple > hundred in Europe. > Z8000 processor. Runs ) > 4. Jupiter Ace ( Several hundred most likely exist > but unusual in that > it had Forth in ROM. Runs ) > 5. NC4000 Delta Board ( Most likely only 100 around > but most have no > idea as to the collectable nature. > These might be > found in embedded system. These are > unique in that they > have the Forth processor on them > that was designed by > NOVIX and Chuck Moore. A 4 Mhz > processor could run rings > around a 33MHz 80386 of its time. > Things like sorting > 1000 integers in 19.2ms ) > Dwight > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 2 17:04:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <1091475228.5590.12.camel@dhcp-248098> Message-ID: <16654.47748.816273.400044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >> >> Are you looking exclusively at the IBM 650, or any computer? Does >> it Vintage> The overall discussion is very useful, but in my particular Vintage> case, it needs to pertain specifically to the IBM 650, Vintage> because the assertion at hand is that a document used to Vintage> discredit a certain scientist's claim to a certain Vintage> achievement has a date stamp on it that is claimed was Vintage> produce by the IBM 650 using its internal clock feature. Vintage> The 650 does not have such a feature inherently, so now I'm Vintage> trying to determine if there was ever an adjunct product Vintage> that IBM produced to give the 650 the ability to tell time. It sure doesn't look like that from the docs on Al Kossow's website. It seems that the 650 doesn't have interrupts, which would make a simple periodic tick type system pretty problematic. If the exercise is to attach the credibility of the document, it looks to me like you have enough data to do that. You can clearly say "there isn't any such thing as an 'internal clock feature' on the 650". That puts the ball in the other party's court, to try to demonstrate that there did exist some obscure add-on of which not a word appears in the dozen or so IBM docs that are on-line. And even then, another question becomes whether the time stamp is real or a forgery, independent of what machine generated it. paul From stuart at zen.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:08:24 2004 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: wtd (uk): TI99 memory cart, ACT Sirius Message-ID: <003701c478dd$3b631030$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Hi everyone, I'm on the lookout currently for a 32K memory cart for a TI99 PEB, as well as extended basic. I'm also interested in any ACT Sirius hardware anyone has currently hanging around. Many thanks for any help. Stu From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:10:20 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091484620.24463.38.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 19:56, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Apple /// (possibly lots worldwide; there don't seem to be many people > > this side of the pond who have seen one though) > > Very common. I figured they might be - just not in this part of the world, it seems :-) Wonder how many were actually sold in the UK... > I recently picked up a Morrow Designs UNIX box that was never sold > commercially (according to the guy I got it from). It had the same > styling as the MD-2 CP/M desktop computer but was a bit larger. That sounds familiar for some reason. I was flicking through ancient computer magazines whilst doing some sorting out over at Bletchley on the weekend, so maybe I caught some vague advance press release or something. Announcing hardware months before it was ready and then never commercially producing it seemed to be incredibly common back in the day... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 2 17:43:07 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: Message-ID: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > He got red in the face when I asked him how he's teaching kids any > base OS principles such as state-saving and interrupting. Meaning, > kids don't go there, pretty much. The next major version of a > known OS will probably be without interrupts, as none of the > programmers will have any knowledge about them anymore ;-) > OH, like DOS again! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 2 17:47:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:46 2005 Subject: Cirris 1000 In-Reply-To: <006401c477fe$985f56c0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <3.0.6.32.20040727205617.00b46680@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040731224638.00797100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040802184748.009709c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:32 PM 8/1/04 +0100, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: >On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:46 AM >Subject: Re: Cirris 1000 > > >> At 08:36 PM 7/28/04 +0100, you wrote: >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Joe R." >> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > >> >Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 1:56 AM >> >Subject: Re: Cirris 1000 >> > >> > >> >> Jim, >> >> >> >> Yes I still have it. The winnng bidder welshed out and never paid >for >> >it. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >I'm not particularly sensitive in these matters , but I do object to your >> >use of the term "welsh" , meaning to renege on a bet I am told. >> >This is old English propaganda , and I'm told that Bill Clinton had to >> >apologise for it's use in America. >> >> That's fair, America has had to apologize for Bill Clinton many times. >> >> >> >> >> >Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the use of >the >> >verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a foreign country on >> >false premises or purely for the advancement of American capital >interests . >> >> Welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh, welsh! >> >> Joe >> >I can see you're a good ol' boy Joe , what say you an' me go out in tha >truck tonight and hunt down those goddam ( no goddam , not sellam ) >blacks and commies and shoot 'em up ? Waddya say ? >Then we'll take care of all the pesky liberals holding back that great >country of yours - sure sounds like fun ta me! >Weee-el , waddya say ? > >Geoff. > No thanks. But you go right ahead, I wouldn't want to stop you from enjoying yourself. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 2 18:01:21 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) In-Reply-To: <011e01c4780b$fa27c420$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <012f01c474da$3cb369a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <16653.23145.727000.803803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040802190121.00877b40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:10 PM 8/1/04 +0100, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Paul Koning" >To: >Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:02 PM >Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > >> >> > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> >> Should you persist , I shall have no hesitation in initiating the >> >> use of the verb to " American " - i.e. to invade or destabilise a >> >> foreign country on false premises or purely for the advancement of >> >> American capital interests . >> >> Is that term applicable when the French do it? >> >> paul >> >Of course , > >But our comrade Joe is using a purely perjorative term from the English >colonial past. I might be classified as a lot of things but Comrade is definitely not one of them! Where the hell did that come from anyway? What have you been smoking lately? >That is what I object to , given the English colonial past. >e.g. Drug Runners - see under Chinese Opium Wars. Considering the English colonial past, the English don't have the right to complain about anything! Not only see Opium wars, see black slavery (who do you think shipped the slaves to America and the Caribeaan in exchange for sugar and rum?), Irish potato famine, Endentured Servitude (another word for slavery), debitor's prison, scalp bounties (both in North American and for Australian Aborigines), press gangs (ship's crews). Then go see American Revolution! Now do you REALLY want to get into a debate about English colonial past???? My 2 cents worth, Joe > >Geoff. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:14:43 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: RX50 Dis/assembly.. In-Reply-To: <410C82EB.4030603@hp.com> from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Aug 1, 4 01:43:07 pm Message-ID: > > Yeah. I got it back together. Tony saves the day (again!) with his > incredibility detailed electronic roadmap (doesn't get any better than > pin 1 to gnd!) :-) Glad I could be of help.. One day I'll get a scanner, or a digital camera [1], or something and be able to e-mail diagrams too. But until then you'll have to put up with good old text.... [1] I will consider getting such a device when they offer superior quality to my existing film cameras. Which include 5*4" sheet film units. Oh yes, and I expect spares to be avaialable for as long as they're available for my existing cameras too (the only parts I've needed for said 5*4's are new bellows, and I can get those easily...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:16:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 2, 4 00:41:35 am Message-ID: > > > Has anyone ever produced a random number generator that pulls it's "seed" > > from the random background radiation you get on a TV set on a dead channel > > (snow)? > > Probably not, as it is easy to get very non random interference (distant > stations, various forms of electrical noise, etc. I beleive the thermal noise in a resistor has been used as a source of random numbers, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:18:37 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 1, 4 10:05:01 pm Message-ID: > What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I > always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them > but until now I've never known of any examples. Off-subject, but the Exidy Sorcerer ROM cartridges were houses in slightly modifed 8-track tape cases. There was a card-edge at the end where you'd expect to find the tape. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:47:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 4 12:25:42 pm Message-ID: > This is the biggest aspect of the problem. But if that's all it was, it > would be easy to solve. The main issues are that we have a) dumbed-down > school and educational requirements, b) stifled creativity in ways too Agreed... > numerous to mention (i.e. kids being arrested for writing fantasy essays Exams the emphasise rote-learning rather than thought don't exactly help here. > about killing other students, teachers, etc.), c) have gotten so busy in And at least over here, kids are treated with suspeicion if they want to use 'dangerous' tools like knives, soldering irons, etc. > life that we have little spare time for hobbies, d) removed the hands-on > science classes from school because of budgetary reasons, e) generally Again, over here, a lot of the good bits of school science have been removed for 'safety reasons' (not that anyone ever got seriously harmed by doing them, and now kids are so darn bored that they turn to crime of illegal drugs, but anyeay). Much of what I did at school, like making a CRT, fooling around with 3 phase mains, etc, would be banned :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:40:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <001801c478c1$de6b6d20$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Aug 2, 4 02:52:31 pm Message-ID: > I think there are alot of kids designing websites, programming, hacking, and > making the occasional virus. The fact that they put away the soldering iron > and took up the keyboard doesnt mean they are selfish or not creative, they Alas not over here. The common attidude seems to be 'Why bother to program when you can download it from the net' (whether it's PD/open source stuff, or 'Warez'). In fact over here kids rarely seem to create anything much any more, and I can't say I really blame them (note, this is not the same as saying that I am not worried by this). You do not get a well-paid job (or even a job at all) by being able to program, or do engineering, or... You get one by being able ot kick a football or strum a guitar badly. In fact people are actively discouraged from hardware hacking. The 'no user serviceable parts' label doesn't help of course. Nor does the fact that schematics/service manuals are difficult/impossible to obtain even for quite simple things (I can remember when radios and hi-fi equipment came with a schemaitc in the handbook, in fact I have an old, valve, FM tuner where the first page of the manual tells you how to use it, the rest of the manual describes the complete alignment procedure, gives component layouts and schematics, etc). Nor dows the fact that a lot of modern sutff is made deliberately hard to dismantly non-destructively. > just get into different tools then older people who didn't have a computer > to play with when they grew up. When I was young I went out and purchased > some ram chips to fix my dead C64 (was stupid and touched a staticy TV while > my other hand was on the keyboard, ESD), equipment was expensive. Today if a > pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to > even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other We've had this before, and I still don't believe it. If you can honstly tell me that it's cheaper (and quicker) to replace some large PCB costing several hundreed pounds/dollars than to find the dead I/O buffer chip (which sould cost a few 10s of pence, and which would take me about 10 minutes to find at most), then I have to wonder what planet you're on. > electronics. Electronics repair places were the first to disapear, makes > sense that the surplus stores that supplied those buisinesses are next in > line to go. Even Radioshack does not carry much in the way of electronics > parts these days. Yes, iut's getting to be a prohlem for those few of us who still do spend most of our time with a soldering iron ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 17:43:52 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091474726.23885.96.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 2, 4 07:25:26 pm Message-ID: > Acorn System 5 (maybe 20 or so left worldwide?) I have one. > Torch Quad X (I don't know of any others left) I have one of those as well, missing a few trivial bits like the PSU output cable. I do haev the mainboard, PSU, drives, etc. > Torch Triple X workstation (maybe 30 of those around?) I have a few, including one with a Quinring (5 slot VME expansion slice) on top. > RML 480Z metal-cased system And one of those _somewhere_... -tony From vax3900 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 18:23:22 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available In-Reply-To: <200408021708.KAA26832@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040802232322.63114.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> It mentioned the "extended processor unit interface" to Z8000 cpu with a 6 page chapter. some reversed instructions can be used as EPU instructions. It said an EPU can be a floating point processor, a graphics processor, a network processor.... It described the EPU hardware interface but didn't say more about a floating point processor. If you have interest I can mail you a copy. vax, 3900 --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "SHAUN RIPLEY" > > > >I copied the Z8038 part from the book "The Z8000 > >microprocessor, A design handbook" by Bradly, K. > >Fawcett. I remember that somebody on the list tried > to > >make a collection of zilog chip documents. I'd like > to > >mail the 20 pages to him. Please send me email if > it > >is you. Thanks. > > > > > > Hi Shaun > Does your book describe the floating point > processor > ( that was never released ). I was wondering because > the CP/M-8000 that I've been playing with ( accually > the C compiler ) uses the floating point processors > instructions and then exception traps them to > execute > the floating point code. The format for using these > traps would be the same as was expected for the > real FPU. > Dwight > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 2 18:36:02 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410ECFE2.9080004@mdrconsult.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >>They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I >>don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence >>is accurate. > > > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list Probably the rarest I own is only because of the paint job - it's an otherwise very common computer - an A2000 badged as a Newtek VideoToaster 2000. I haven't found anybody else who has one with the Newtek badge, but all the internals are pretty common boards. Other than that, I'd guess it's either the Altos 580 or the Mindset. The Altos runs, the Mindset I don't have a clue about. All I have is the system unit and the floppy drive expansion. No keyboard or video. The coolest computer I have, in terms of "Oh My God I can't believe I scored this!" is the 133MHz BeBox. Runs, came with a bunch of software, and is cosmetically near perfect. Doc From shirker at mooli.org.uk Mon Aug 2 18:38:39 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: OT: ServGate documentation pack, anyone want? Message-ID: Hi, I have a ServGate EdgeForce documentation pack here, consisting of a CD-ROM, Quick Start Guide Version 2.5 and SGOS 2.5 Administrator's Guide (book). Free, but you pay postage. Contact me within 14 days if you want it, or it hits the trash. Regards, Ed. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 2 18:47:36 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) References: <012f01c474da$3cb369a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <16653.23145.727000.803803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3.0.6.32.20040802190121.00877b40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002901c478eb$16a6bbd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:01 PM Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > Considering the English colonial past, the English don't have the right > to complain about anything! Not only see Opium wars, see black slavery > (who do you think shipped the slaves to America and the Caribeaan in > exchange for sugar and rum?), Irish potato famine, Endentured Servitude > (another word for slavery), debitor's prison, scalp bounties (both in North > American and for Australian Aborigines), press gangs (ship's crews). Then > go see American Revolution! > > Now do you REALLY want to get into a debate about English colonial past???? > > My 2 cents worth, > Joe I think the British did outlaw outright slavery before we did in the US (not sure what their reason would be). I do find it comical when blacks ask for reparations for slavery, since it was black people in Africa enslaving other blacks in the first place, the brits just provided shipping to get them here to the US. Personally I don't think people alive today have any reason to bitch about what happened to any of their people or relatives that were not alive when they were born. Ancient history is just that, history. look at what has happened in the Balkans over the last 100 years, people avenging things that happened centuries before they or anybody they ever met was born. What would you tell an American Indian that comes to your door saying he legally owns the land your house was built on because his tribe was not paid for it 150 years ago? If the Vietnamese can forgive us for what we did in their country 30+ years ago the rest of the world can forgive what happened 1000 years ago. From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 2 19:04:10 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <1091475228.5590.12.camel@dhcp-248098> <16654.47748.816273.400044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <13d101c478ed$67c59200$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> From: "Paul Koning" > It sure doesn't look like that from the docs on Al Kossow's website. > It seems that the 650 doesn't have interrupts, which would make a > simple periodic tick type system pretty problematic. > > If the exercise is to attach the credibility of the document, it looks > to me like you have enough data to do that. You can clearly say > "there isn't any such thing as an 'internal clock feature' on the > 650". That puts the ball in the other party's court, to try to > demonstrate that there did exist some obscure add-on of which not a > word appears in the dozen or so IBM docs that are on-line. > > And even then, another question becomes whether the time stamp is real > or a forgery, independent of what machine generated it. Assuming it isn't a forgery, doesn't the lack of interrupts make a RTC option (that actually keeps the time) *more* likely, rather than less? Otherwise, you'd have to poll an interval timer, and that seems a pretty dicey proposition, particularly if it was an obscure option and the software wasn't really designed around it. Of course, it is also quite possible that the software just asked the user what date/time to put on the printout :-). Vince From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 2 19:16:57 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <410ECFE2.9080004@mdrconsult.com> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> <410ECFE2.9080004@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040803001657.GB3022@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 06:36:02PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > Probably the rarest I own is only because of the paint job - it's an > otherwise very common computer - an A2000 badged as a Newtek > VideoToaster 2000. I haven't found anybody else who has one with the > Newtek badge, but all the internals are pretty common boards. I've seen one (at a local public access TV station), but I have to agree that they aren't common. > The coolest computer I have, in terms of "Oh My God I can't believe I > scored this!" is the 133MHz BeBox. Runs, came with a bunch of software, > and is cosmetically near perfect. Nice score. For my own collection, I'd say that I don't have stuff that's all that rare... An Amiga 1000 w/Rejuvinator, a original rev C-64 s/n 2345, a PDP-8/S, two Straight-8s (one of which appeared on the back of "CPU Wars"), and an SBC-6120 with all the available accessories (FP-6120 and either a RAMdisk or IOB-6120) are about as rare as I get. There's lots of people on this list with odder things than that. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Aug-2004 00:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.7 F (-59.3 C) Windchill -114.8 F (-81.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.8 kts Grid 026 Barometer 668.5 mb (11062. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 2 19:19:13 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408022117.OAA11044@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. I guess I would say my Tektronix 4051 - with 4907 File Manager (three drives) and 4631 Hard Copy Unit - although, a Commodore Series 2100 with a chicklet keyboard is probably worthy of mention. Also have a 'desktop' single user version and a large cabinet on casters multiuser version of Sierra National's CP/M-80 machines. None are in the Xerox Alto category, however! - don From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Aug 2 19:19:24 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas not over here. The common attidude seems to be 'Why bother to > program when you can download it from the net' (whether it's PD/open source > stuff, or 'Warez'). Very true. > In fact over here kids rarely seem to create anything much any more, and > I can't say I really blame them (note, this is not the same as saying > that I am not worried by this). You do not get a well-paid job (or even a > job at all) by being able to program, or do engineering, or... You get > one by being able ot kick a football or strum a guitar badly. I'd like to insert ".. or do The Talk well enough for a sales job". Sales is doing well now, since the harder the times get, the better they pay (good) sales people. > component layouts and schematics, etc). Nor dows the fact that a lot of > modern sutff is made deliberately hard to dismantly non-destructively. Well, a better reason for no longer repairing things is simply the level of integration we have gotten to. There *is* no way you can repair something that consists of a PCB the size of a stamp, loaded with a s single black thingie. If that thingie breaks, the whole thing is gone. > We've had this before, and I still don't believe it. If you can honstly > tell me that it's cheaper (and quicker) to replace some large PCB costing > several hundreed pounds/dollars than to find the dead I/O buffer chip > (which sould cost a few 10s of pence, and which would take me about 10 > minutes to find at most), then I have to wonder what planet you're on. Tony, what planet are YOU on? There have always been "for parts" or "scrap" systems around, even for C64's. At the time, it was easier to find one of those (usually, ecause of a dead power supply or a fucked-up case) than to find a replacement 6522 or whatever. And yes, I have repaired well over 2,000 C64's. That was my job :) Plus... many folks can (probably..) work out how to replace a board, or modular part of the system (power supply) with another one from an also-dead system.. but would NOT be able to actually track down the real problem and do component-level repairs, simply by lack of skills in that field. In the service industry, time is money, to field techs did (and still do) board- or system-level swapping, and the (skilled) folks in the repair departments (try to) do the rest. Not good per se, but also not bad. I cost $500 an hour (OK, 475, really) so me spending hours on locating a problem in a module from a Catalyst stack would quickly grow extremely expensive. Rather, I'll come in, determine which board to pull, and then pull it. Often, this is already known because of system monitoring and reporting, so I know which board to bring in advance. Result? Customer is happy (quick response, short downtime), and so is Cisco (because customer is and remains happy.) They will then off-load the actual board repair to some repairing facility. (and yes, Sellam, that is usually off-shore in a low-wages area :-) --f From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 19:35:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <00c601c478d6$51570b50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > A) The school system has always been producing kids with the skills > employers are demanding for the future workforce. The newest generation will > have skills designed for the service industry which is where 80% of the jobs > of today are. Why should Johnny go to tech school and spend $20,000 on loans > to get an ITT tech degree and make $8 an hour when he can get just about the > same rate moving boxes in a warehouse with nothing but a HS diploma. Something about aspiring to a higher cause perhaps? Maybe other people are content to schlep boxes around in a warehouse, but I'm not, and I suspect I'm not alone. > D) I don't know if they are skimping in chemistry or physics in schools > today since they are still college prep classes. Computers are probably > pushed more today then when I was in school. Maybe they cut back on some > woodshop and metalshop classes, I wouldn't know. I do know that a school > district has to be on the verge of bankruptcy to get rid of football, > baseball, and basketball since these activities draw in too many parents who > do pay local taxes. The sad thing is that most of the school budget goes into sports in a lot of schools. I guess it's because they make a lot of money with it. In the high school in which I graduated, I once saw the budget and the football team had the largest by far of all the departments. Sad. > E) Do it yourself is still very big in the home renovating area, probably > bigger then ever since a house is the biggest investment most people make > and is still the largest sinkhole for money for repairs. Humans ARE mindless I'm not talking about that kind of DIY. I mean tinkering with electronics, chemicals, etc. You know: science. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 19:38:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16654.47748.816273.400044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Vintage> The overall discussion is very useful, but in my particular > Vintage> case, it needs to pertain specifically to the IBM 650, > Vintage> because the assertion at hand is that a document used to > Vintage> discredit a certain scientist's claim to a certain > Vintage> achievement has a date stamp on it that is claimed was > Vintage> produce by the IBM 650 using its internal clock feature. > Vintage> The 650 does not have such a feature inherently, so now I'm > Vintage> trying to determine if there was ever an adjunct product > Vintage> that IBM produced to give the 650 the ability to tell time. > > It sure doesn't look like that from the docs on Al Kossow's website. > It seems that the 650 doesn't have interrupts, which would make a > simple periodic tick type system pretty problematic. Yep. > If the exercise is to attach the credibility of the document, it looks > to me like you have enough data to do that. You can clearly say > "there isn't any such thing as an 'internal clock feature' on the > 650". That puts the ball in the other party's court, to try to > demonstrate that there did exist some obscure add-on of which not a > word appears in the dozen or so IBM docs that are on-line. Exactly. But I'm trying to be as thorough as possible in this research since I may well end up acting as an expert witness in the upcoming trial. > And even then, another question becomes whether the time stamp is real > or a forgery, independent of what machine generated it. Two separate forensic tests performed on the alleged document indicates several problems with it. My client is pursuing all angles because he wants a slam dunk. So I'm going to help him deliver it ;) Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:50:05 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought 2 items from this guy (3823521398 and 3823072220). He charged me $8 for shipping, but from the label on the small box I received (and kept) he paid 2.4 dollars only. Of course he doesn't reply to my emails anymore. I will not buy anything from this guy anymore. Stephane From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 20:00:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091484620.24463.38.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > That sounds familiar for some reason. I was flicking through ancient > computer magazines whilst doing some sorting out over at Bletchley on > the weekend, so maybe I caught some vague advance press release or > something. Announcing hardware months before it was ready and then never > commercially producing it seemed to be incredibly common back in the > day... That's not so rare these days either ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 20:16:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I > > always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them > > but until now I've never known of any examples. > > Off-subject, but the Exidy Sorcerer ROM cartridges were houses in > slightly modifed 8-track tape cases. There was a card-edge at the end > where you'd expect to find the tape. Yes, I met a former engineer from Exidy who explained that story. He said they scored something like 10,000 empty 8-track shell casings when 8-track tapes were on their way out in the late 1970s. They hired a kid to router out the interior and then the PCBs were set in place. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 2 20:37:31 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> from ben franchuk at "Aug 2, 4 04:43:07 pm" Message-ID: <200408030137.SAA35064@floodgap.com> > > He got red in the face when I asked him how he's teaching kids any > > base OS principles such as state-saving and interrupting. Meaning, > > kids don't go there, pretty much. The next major version of a > > known OS will probably be without interrupts, as none of the > > programmers will have any knowledge about them anymore ;-) > OH, like DOS again! DOS is an operating system? ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- May I join your mind? -- Sarek, Star Trek III ------------------------------ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 2 20:29:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing Message-ID: <200408030129.SAA27323@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Cameron Kaiser" > >> > He got red in the face when I asked him how he's teaching kids any >> > base OS principles such as state-saving and interrupting. Meaning, >> > kids don't go there, pretty much. The next major version of a >> > known OS will probably be without interrupts, as none of the >> > programmers will have any knowledge about them anymore ;-) > >> OH, like DOS again! > >DOS is an operating system? ;) > Windows is not. It is an application interface. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 20:31:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) In-Reply-To: <002901c478eb$16a6bbd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > I think the British did outlaw outright slavery before we did in the US (not > sure what their reason would be). I do find it comical when blacks ask for > reparations for slavery, since it was black people in Africa enslaving other > blacks in the first place, the brits just provided shipping to get them here > to the US. Ugh. There is this little thing called "demand" that, in most systems of trade, works in unison with the concept of "supply". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 20:33:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > I guess I would say my Tektronix 4051 - with 4907 File Manager > (three drives) and 4631 Hard Copy Unit - although, a Commodore > Series 2100 with a chicklet keyboard is probably worthy of > mention. Do tell...I've never heard of a Commodore 2100. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 2 20:36:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > I bought 2 items from this guy (3823521398 and 3823072220). He charged > me $8 for shipping, but from the label on the small box I received > (and kept) he paid 2.4 dollars only. Of course he doesn't reply to my > emails anymore. > I will not buy anything from this guy anymore. He charged you "handling" (i.e. the time and trouble to pack it and take it to the post office). A bit excessive, but as long as he explicitly mentioned it in his auction then I can't fault him. Time is money. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 2 20:45:45 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding a message that appeared on this thread with the approximate quote: >> Crysital Oscliattors Quite Bad with a tolerance of 0.01& lead to an error of over a minute per dat [sorry I it the delete key too quickly on the message to post the EXACT text] 1 Day = 86400 seconds * 0.01% [100 ppm] = 8.64 SECONDS per day. Not good enough for long term time keeping but much better than the previous poster indicated. I was involved in the development of som Military systems [1979-1983] that used a tempe0rature stabilized crystal with 0.5ppm stability. To the best of my knowledge this was a "state of the art" implementation of automomous time keeping for 1979. 1.0% = 0.01 = 10000ppm = 864.000 sec/day 0.1% = 0.001 = 1000ppm = 86.400 sec/day 0.01% = 0.0001 = 100ppm = 8.640 sec/day 0.001% = 0.00001 = 10ppm = 864 mS/day 0.0001% = 0.000001 = 1ppm = 86.4 ms/day 0.00001% = 0.000001 = 0.1 ppm = 8.64mS/day From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Aug 2 20:54:56 2004 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (rschaefe@gcfn.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: important Message-ID: <200408030210.i732AXd7098141@mail.ezwind.net> I have received your document. The corrected document is attached. ++++ Attachment: No Virus found ++++ Norman AntiVirus - www.norman.com From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 2 20:56:01 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <20040803015601.37B3B3CE0@spies.com> >They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I >don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence >is accurate. At the time the page was created, no other Alto I's were known to exist. Since that time, two are known to still exist in PARC storage, and one is at the CHM. The Alto I in that picture is now back in the Bay Area also. It was one of mine at one point. -- > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. MIT CADR PARC Dorado PARC Dicentra National IMP-16P From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 2 20:57:20 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410EF100.5060407@mdrconsult.com> Stephane Tsacas wrote: > I bought 2 items from this guy (3823521398 and 3823072220). He charged > me $8 for shipping, but from the label on the small box I received > (and kept) he paid 2.4 dollars only. Of course he doesn't reply to my > emails anymore. > I will not buy anything from this guy anymore. No offense, but that drives me nuts. What's happening on eBay, because way too many buyers take your stance, is that professional and especially "semi-pro" sellers try to charge as little as possible for S&H, and then can't afford to pack the item correctly. That costs you a lot more than the $5.60USD you're worried about. If I sell you an item, I have to find (and usually pay for) a box that fits it for secure shipping, packing, tape, and labelling, and if it's shipped USPS, I also have to either weigh it here and print a label online, or schlep it down to the PO and wait in line to have them do that. If all that's not worth $5-6 for a small item or $10-15 for a PC-sized item, a prospective buyer is welcome to kiss my butt and go elsewhere. Doc From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Aug 2 21:03:31 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> PARTS OF SAGE and parts of the Honeywell datamatic 1000 but those are parts.... does this count?----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: Re: rarest computers > And thusly Marvin Johnston spake: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > > > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > > > > Mine would be a PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard. :) > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope > > > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 21:07:10 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are speaking of a pair of 80287 chips in a small box here, not a PDP11 which certainly needs "handling & packing" ! Plus, a polite answer from him would have been appreciated, and probably a positive feedback, since I paid him immediatly, like I always do. My opinion is that he expected his 2 auctions to go higher than UDS 0.99, that's all. As a buyer AND seller on ebay, I know that sometimes you can be disapointed by the low price at which you have to "sell" your items, but you should always remember that you don't complain when the opposite happens ! Stephane From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 2 21:30:30 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <13d101c478ed$67c59200$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: >>> Of course, it is also quite possible that the software just >>> asked the user what date/time to put on the printout :-). >>> I was thinking the same thing. There were some programs I worked on during the early seventies where the computer did not have a clue about the date or time. The input "deck" contained this information which was basically just echoed on to the printouts. I remember running batch jobs [large decks] where the only cards that would get changed were a few parameters and the leading "identity" card.... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 2 21:33:35 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <200408030129.SAA27323@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: >>> >> OH, like DOS again! >>> > >>> >DOS is an operating system? ;) >>> > >>> >>> Windows is not. It is an application interface. >>> Dwight >>> >>> Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] Debatable for XP, ME From rickb at bensene.com Mon Aug 2 21:34:48 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <003c01c47902$7282d990$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Here's my rarest: Tektronix 4132, running UTEK (A Tek-haved 4.2bsd variant). A National 16032-based machine, with 4MB of RAM, dual RS-232, CDC 320MB SCSI 5 1/4" HD, GPIB, built-in 10Mb Ethernet (AUI), QIC-24 tape drive. Have quite a number of expansion boards, including additional RAM, RS232, SCSI, and parallel printer interfaces. The network stack in these machines is pretty broken...it doesn't know about subnetting other than basic class A/B/C, and it forces broadcast to the zero address rather than the now-standard ones address. Probably not too many of these machines around anymore that are running. I also have a Tek 6130 that I believe will still run. Same architecture as the 4132, but earlier. It has ST-506 disk interface rather than SCSI. Don't have a decent ST-506 drive for it. Usually ran with Maxtor 1140's, which are pretty tough to find nowadays. Built-in 5 1/4" DSDD floppy drive (versus SCSI QIC-24 drive on the 4132). One of these days, once I get my house built and I have a real shop to work in (probably not until early 2005), I'll have to drag these beasts out and bring 'em online. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 2 21:42:59 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: <410EF100.5060407@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: I have to agree that "shipping" is more than "transport" [i.e. the UPS/USPS/DHL/FedEx charges]. Just do the business math. Also it is common to not KNOW the EXACT amount at the time the sales is closed, so a reasonable approximation is acceptable [at least to me]. As a general "rule" I expect "shipping" to be in the $5-$10 [US] range for any Item I buy, even if it eventually goes by post for $1. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley >>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:57 PM >>> To: General@mdrconsult.com >>> Subject: Re: EPROM Erase or Program service >>> >>> Stephane Tsacas wrote: >>> >>> > I bought 2 items from this guy (3823521398 and >>> 3823072220). He charged >>> > me $8 for shipping, but from the label on the small box I >>> received >>> > (and kept) he paid 2.4 dollars only. Of course he doesn't >>> reply to my >>> > emails anymore. >>> > I will not buy anything from this guy anymore. >>> >>> No offense, but that drives me nuts. >>> >>> What's happening on eBay, because way too many buyers >>> take your stance, is that professional and especially >>> "semi-pro" sellers try to charge as little as possible for >>> S&H, and then can't afford to pack the item correctly. >>> That costs you a lot more than the $5.60USD you're worried about. >>> >>> If I sell you an item, I have to find (and usually pay >>> for) a box that fits it for secure shipping, packing, tape, >>> and labelling, and if it's shipped USPS, I also have to >>> either weigh it here and print a label online, or schlep it >>> down to the PO and wait in line to have them do that. >>> >>> If all that's not worth $5-6 for a small item or $10-15 >>> for a PC-sized item, a prospective buyer is welcome to kiss >>> my butt and go elsewhere. >>> >>> >>> Doc From jimmydevice at verizon.net Mon Aug 2 21:36:41 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com> <001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> ed sharpe wrote: >PARTS OF SAGE and parts of the Honeywell datamatic 1000 >but those are parts.... does this count?----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bryan Pope" >To: >Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:15 AM >Subject: Re: rarest computers > > > > > I was given a National Radio Institute 832 trainer about 15 years ago. Needs some work now. Jim Davis. From joe at barrera.org Mon Aug 2 21:41:52 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <410EFB70.1090608@barrera.org> ben franchuk wrote: > Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > > [...] The next major version of a > > known OS will probably be without interrupts, as none of the > > programmers will have any knowledge about them anymore ;-) > > > OH, like DOS again! Don't be silly. Of course DOS has interrupt handling. See e.g. - Joe From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 2 21:54:08 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408021954.08445.lbickley@bickleywest.com> When I worked at Lockheed (as an IBM'er) in the early '60s we were tracking military satellites with 256 channels of data. We had a real time clock interfaced to an IBM 7094 to support timestamped tracking of the flight data. As I recollect, the satellite(s) themselves had a real time clock. Since this was a classified project I don't have any documentation to back up my recollections. The SAGE system from that era also used real time clocks. I suspect that the tracking computers for the Apollo missions had a similar setup to ours at Lockheed. I do have some of the listings of the Apollo onboard computer software - and I'd be very surprised not to find a real time clock being referenced. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 2 22:03:51 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com> <001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20040803030351.GA19983@bos7.spole.gov> I just thought of a couple of uncommon machines I have... A DataRAM 22-bit Qbus enclosure with a real DEC CPU, and a bunch of 3rd-party boards including RAM, a watchdog card, a Dilog DQ614, and a card that emulates an RXV21, but plugs into a more "normal" Tandon TM848 8" drive. A Perkin-Elmer UNIX System III workstation - it's odd because it uses a pair of MC68000s to do page faulting (rather than some magic wad of TTL or a later processor like the MC68010 that saves enough state to do virtual memory in software). There's nothing horribly rare about a Q22 enclosure, but I don't recall running across too many non-DEC boxes (besides Heath). It's an interesting mix of mini and micro technology from the early 1980s. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Aug-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77 F (-60.6 C) Windchill -117.3 F (-83 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.4 kts Grid 030 Barometer 668.9 mb (11046. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 2 22:07:49 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <200408021954.08445.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200408021954.08445.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200408022007.49746.lbickley@bickleywest.com> BTW: The Sage system (tube based) predates the 709x systems (discrete component/transistor based) and was in use from 1956-63. Lyle On Monday 02 August 2004 19:54, Lyle Bickley wrote: > When I worked at Lockheed (as an IBM'er) in the early '60s we were tracking > military satellites with 256 channels of data. We had a real time clock > interfaced to an IBM 7094 to support timestamped tracking of the flight > data. As I recollect, the satellite(s) themselves had a real time clock. > Since this was a classified project I don't have any documentation to back > up my recollections. > > The SAGE system from that era also used real time clocks. > > I suspect that the tracking computers for the Apollo missions had a similar > setup to ours at Lockheed. I do have some of the listings of the Apollo > onboard computer software - and I'd be very surprised not to find a real > time clock being referenced. > > Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 2 22:13:04 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's not so rare these days either ;) I have been following this thread a bit, and have a few observations: 1) While "computer X" might be very rare, there are lots of "computer Xs" out there, and lots of people with the. In other words, have you noticed that almost every semi-serious collector has at least one rare machine? The same phenomenon happens with other types of collections. 2) What is rare today may not be tomorrow...PDP-10s used to be rare/you-will-never-find-one machines. How things have changed - there are something like 40-odd PDP-10s in various flavors in collections now, and KL-10s keep popping up like muchrooms. 3) How many people have *significant* machines? One that made a dent in history, even if it was something as mundane as an Apple II or a PDP-11/34? Just food for thought (or flames)... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 2 22:15:33 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <200408022007.49746.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: > BTW: The Sage system (tube based) predates the 709x systems (discrete > component/transistor based) and was in use from 1956-63. Change the second 6 to an 8. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 2 22:19:43 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408022319.43910.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 02 August 2004 23:13, William Donzelli wrote: > > That's not so rare these days either ;) > > I have been following this thread a bit, and have a few observations: > > 1) While "computer X" might be very rare, there are lots of "computer > Xs" out there, and lots of people with the. In other words, have you > noticed that almost every semi-serious collector has at least one rare > machine? The same phenomenon happens with other types of collections. > > 2) What is rare today may not be tomorrow...PDP-10s used to be > rare/you-will-never-find-one machines. How things have changed - there > are something like 40-odd PDP-10s in various flavors in collections now, > and KL-10s keep popping up like muchrooms. > > 3) How many people have *significant* machines? One that made a dent in > history, even if it was something as mundane as an Apple II or a > PDP-11/34? Well I know my Apple IIe is RARE because it said so on E-Bay - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBDwRPLPrIaE/xBZARAiSlAJ0VkVjZLw+3ouDetlxjVqdOf9iD9wCeJrd+ 074LT4wpVppUw6UHKrGlGVE= =Dh9Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 2 22:25:50 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408022025.50152.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Bad Typo - thanks for the correction. The project was started at MIT in 1954, deployed in 1956 and the last one dismantled in 1983. Lyle On Monday 02 August 2004 20:15, William Donzelli wrote: > > BTW: The Sage system (tube based) predates the 709x systems (discrete > > component/transistor based) and was in use from 1956-63. > > Change the second 6 to an 8. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 2 22:30:35 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:47 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> <410EFB70.1090608@barrera.org> Message-ID: <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Don't be silly. Of course DOS has interrupt handling. See e.g. > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! Can we say 300 BAUD! Grumpy PROGRAMER! > - Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 2 22:42:35 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> <410EFB70.1090608@barrera.org> <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <010101c4790b$ea622c00$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben franchuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: Re: Electronics Barn closing > Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > > Don't be silly. Of course DOS has interrupt handling. See e.g. > > > > > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! > Can we say 300 BAUD! > Grumpy PROGRAMER! > > > - Joe > > > > I guess all those times I used a modem connected to a serial port with Telix (DOS based comm program) downloading at 14.4K from a BBS I must have been dreaming? From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 2 22:42:05 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <20040802220101.95018.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ee01c4790b$d8fd5a20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Half of everything I have has something wierd about it, like the MAC with an Apple-II card in it or the uVAX-II GPX that was said to be Stallman's. Alot of stuff that was damn common around 1985 sure isn't now, like HP 2645 terminals. The rarest? Possibly the Intel PC with an LSI Unisys Micro-A embedded in it. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 2 22:44:11 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> <410EFB70.1090608@barrera.org> <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <010101c4790b$ea622c00$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <410F0A0B.3020502@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > > I guess all those times I used a modem connected to a serial port with Telix > (DOS based comm program) downloading at 14.4K from a BBS I must have been > dreaming? Read the fine print under Telix and DOS! Ben, the grumpy programer. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 23:14:23 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Serial port speed In-Reply-To: <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> <410EFB70.1090608@barrera.org> <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040802205828.W26023@shell.lmi.net> > > Don't be silly. Of course DOS has interrupt handling. See e.g. > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! > Can we say 300 BAUD! > Grumpy PROGRAMER! Hmmmm. I was able to get 9600 bits per second out of the IBM serial card (8250 UART) on 4.77 MHz PCs, without TOO much difficulty. One of the nice things about MS-DOS, as opposed to the W word, was that it wasn't very hard to shove it out of the way when you wanted to talk to the hardware. ("well behaved" v performance) But, admittedly, if you tried to do serial I/O using the BIOS routines, then you might very well be limited to not much over 300 baud. Joe Campbell's "C Programmer's Guide to Serial Communications" has plenty of good info, although he and I didn't completely agree about his level of "data hiding". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 23:16:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: from "Fred N. van Kempen" at Aug 3, 4 02:19:24 am Message-ID: > Plus... many folks can (probably..) work out how to replace a board, > or modular part of the system (power supply) with another one from an > also-dead system.. but would NOT be able to actually track down the > real problem and do component-level repairs, simply by lack of skills The actual job of soldering in a surface mount device (or even easier a pin-trough-hole device) doesn't take much skill. The skill is in finding the dead component. And alas, I will _never_ believe you can fix a machine unless you actually know what component has failed (even if you then have to replace the board because it's a direct-on-board chip or something horrible). I've seen problems caused by randomly replacing parts too many times. Look back through the archives for the stories, I don't feel like posting them again tonight,,, > in that field. In the service industry, time is money, to field techs > did (and still do) board- or system-level swapping, and the (skilled) Which is why you'd think the customer would want it fixed right first time.... > folks in the repair departments (try to) do the rest. Not good per > se, but also not bad. I cost $500 an hour (OK, 475, really) so me > spending hours on locating a problem in a module from a Catalyst > stack would quickly grow extremely expensive. Rather, I'll come in, > determine which board to pull, and then pull it. Often, this is > already known because of system monitoring and reporting, so I know I have never understood how you can trust diagnostics running on a machine that's malfunctioning (and yes, I have seen this problem too). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 23:19:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 4 06:16:26 pm Message-ID: > Yes, I met a former engineer from Exidy who explained that story. He said > they scored something like 10,000 empty 8-track shell casings when > 8-track tapes were on their way out in the late 1970s. They hired a kid > to router out the interior and then the PCBs were set in place. The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw and file. Well done they are not! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 23:27:04 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 2, 4 11:13:04 pm Message-ID: > 3) How many people have *significant* machines? One that made a dent in > history, even if it was something as mundane as an Apple II or a > PDP-11/34? OK, from my colection, I could justify the historical impact of the following : HP9100 (alas mine's a B), one of the first programmable desktop machines One of the PDP11s (probably the 11/45), for obvious reasons PET2001 / TRS-80 Model 1 / Apple ][ (First mass-marketted micros) Sinclar ZX81 (Instroduced a lot of UK kids to computing) C64 (Ditto, in the States) IBM PC 5150 (Surely you don't need me to explain why :-)) -tony From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 2 23:51:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <01a401c478c3$6d3a2720$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> <410E8257.5CC26007@rain.org> <01a401c478c3$6d3a2720$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: > > Not the rarest hardware... but perhaps rarest running software... > HP2000/Access TimeShared BASIC > > Dual bay cabinet, 7970E mag tape, 2748B paper tape reader, 2895B paper > tape > punch, 2100A cpu with 32K and floating point, 2100S cpu with 32K and > IOP > firmware, 12920Mux, 7900A disc drive, and 7906D disc drive. > > I'm in the process of converting it from dual 2100's to dual 21MX/E's. > > Jay West Hey Jay! is there any chance of getting this thing on the internet so we can get accounts on it? I have a copy of "what to do after you hit return" (people's computer company) and I -might- key in some of the programs from there. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Aug 2 23:50:31 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408022019.NAA27101@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408022019.NAA27101@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410F1997.7040008@pacbell.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi ben > A good picture of it can be seen at: > > http://www.omahug.org/vcf40/v02.jpg ( the Wyse terminal is not original ) ... > Mine has 12Kx20 of core but they also had a 24Kx20 setup > with an expansion chassis. ... Nicolet was one of the > last manufactures to make core bases processors and made > processors for use on subs because of cores resistance to > radiation. ... Speaker of core memory, I used to work for a company that was still shipping core-based systems in 1985, when I first joined them right out of college. The machine was the "BTI 8000", made by BTI Computer Systems, based in Sunnyvale, CA. I worked there for only a year, but I have some recollection of the machine. It was a multiprocessor 32b super minicomputer with a really odd architecture (I wish I had kept the arch manual). BTI started in the late 60's at a timesharing service provider, became for a time phenominally successful reselling 16b HP 3000 machines bundled with auto dealership software, then got big for their britches and invested everything in developing the BTI 8000. When I joined in 1985, they were just bringing up the first DRAM based memory board when I joined. One of the jobs I did in my year there was to address some of the outstanding bugs in the core memory controller. It was a microcoded controller! Just about everything at BTI was microcoded. The cards were big -- probably 30" x 36". Warping was a big problem. Many of the cards were wirewrapped by machine, partly because at that time making PC boards that large with enough layers was not practical. Some cards were layed out as much as possible with a two layer board, then the rest was put on with wirewrap. Everything was TTL (mostly S and F) and no PALs as they were too slow (35ns) at that time. They had a "big system" mentality despite the volume not justifying it. For example, many cards had diagnostic processors. The CPU had a diagnostic Z80 that would run self test on the CPU before allowing it to "join" the bus. Same with the memory card. Same with the IO processor. One to eight or so processors could be in a system. Some systems had small backplanes (6 slots?), some had big (16 slots or so) backplanes. The CPU had no cache and a small register file. The CPUs were completely symmetric. At a time slice the few dozen registers would be saved off to a process state area and the next time another CPU was free, it would pick up the process state and continue on. You could power off the machine with the master power button, then flip it back on 30 seconds later and (most of the time) things kept running like nothing had happened. The instructions were 32b, but the address space per process was 20b IIRC. Those extra 12 bits were used for all kinds of strange addressing modes. For example, besides the usual pointer to memory, you could have a pointer to a register -- or a pointer to a field of a register! Yes, there were instructions like "increment bits [17:5] of R3". The emphasis was on density of encoding, not speed of decoding. The CPU was on the 5th generation by the time I got there, as the machine was originally designed in 1977 or so. The 5th gen CPU used eight 2910 bit slices. Earlier machines had used 74S181 slices. The bus was synchronous and ran at 15 MHz. There were low priority and high priority requests, but only those two levels. You could do a single read, a single write, double word read, or double word write. Reads were split and pipelined, but a given master could have only one transaction outstanding at a time. The system used a very clever distributed arbitration scheme (again, with two levels for low and high priority requests). The system software was almost all written in assembly language. They had their own made up language called "dragon". They had their own editor, own mail system, compilers (BASIC, Pascal, COBOL, RPG, but no C). Just about everything was written in-house. Some googling indicates the company still existed in some for up until at least 2002, still in sunnyvale. They seem to be out of business now. From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 2 23:51:50 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > > > I guess I would say my Tektronix 4051 - with 4907 File Manager > > (three drives) and 4631 Hard Copy Unit - although, a Commodore > > Series 2100 with a chicklet keyboard is probably worthy of > > mention. > > Do tell...I've never heard of a Commodore 2100. Sorry, I misspoke! It is a Commodore PET Series 2001. Should have written it down. - don > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 3 00:02:43 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A1CCBB4-E50A-11D8-99FF-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Another problem with most modern stuff is that it is surface mount tiny "you can't work on it without special tools" not meant for repair, only for replacement. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 3 00:03:41 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! > Can we say 300 BAUD! > Grumpy PROGRAMER! yes, DOS supported (and used) hardware interrupts, but not for all devices... the serial ports happened to be non-interrupt driven, as we all learned the hard way. --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 3 00:04:56 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <010101c4790b$ea622c00$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > I guess all those times I used a modem connected to a serial port with Telix > (DOS based comm program) downloading at 14.4K from a BBS I must have been > dreaming? No, you were awake: Telix installed its own hardware-based serial port driver, which is what all serious apps did, at least the ones that were not-Fossil-aware. --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 3 00:07:26 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Serial port speed In-Reply-To: <20040802205828.W26023@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, admittedly, if you tried to do serial I/O using the BIOS > routines, then you might very well be limited to not much over > 300 baud. Correct, that is why we all wrote and/or installed our own handlers that did dual-ring buffering, better handshaking and, if needed, custom line speeds and/or protocols. > Joe Campbell's "C Programmer's Guide to Serial Communications" > has plenty of good info, although he and I didn't completely > agree about his level of "data hiding". Oo, the "Blue Book". Good info, but, indeed, his Virtual UART stuff kinda sucked. --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 3 00:15:11 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > The actual job of soldering in a surface mount device (or even easier a > pin-trough-hole device) doesn't take much skill. The skill is in finding > the dead component. Most people cant solder *at all*, Tony. They can, however, eject a bad board, and insert a new one, if told how. > > in that field. In the service industry, time is money, to field techs > > did (and still do) board- or system-level swapping, and the (skilled) > Which is why you'd think the customer would want it fixed right first > time.... Guess what? Usually, in my experience, board-swapping fixed the problem at hand, as far as the customers were concerned. Meaning, contract dealines were met, all were happy, *including* the guys at the repair stations who got their hands onto fixing the actual component-level problems. > I have never understood how you can trust diagnostics running on a > machine that's malfunctioning (and yes, I have seen this problem too). Those diagnostics are run independently, Tony, by each component, so there is no "malfunctioning system" as a whole. Board-level monitoring has been around for a while- it works. I know, sooner than a customer does, that part of one of their systems is going to fail, and, usually, why. Meaning, I can get a replacement part, go over there, install it, and no problems. One customer actually said "ok, lets wait and see then", and, sure enough, three days later one of the drives in his array fried. Yeah, well, if the drive reports extreme temp changes and speed (rpm) changes, it really does mean it. --f From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 00:52:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: <410EF100.5060407@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I bought 2 items from this guy (3823521398 and 3823072220). He charged > > me $8 for shipping, but from the label on the small box I received > > (and kept) he paid 2.4 dollars only. Of course he doesn't reply to my > > emails anymore. > > I will not buy anything from this guy anymore. > > No offense, but that drives me nuts. > > What's happening on eBay, because way too many buyers take your > stance, is that professional and especially "semi-pro" sellers try to > charge as little as possible for S&H, and then can't afford to pack the > item correctly. That costs you a lot more than the $5.60USD you're > worried about. Yep, packing and shipping is a pain in the ass and can sometimes take up to an hour. I don't know about you, but I can be doing a whole lot more with an hour. Fortunately, I have assistans these days, but they still need to be trained, and I still have to pay them to do the work. > If I sell you an item, I have to find (and usually pay for) a box > that fits it for secure shipping, packing, tape, and labelling, and if > it's shipped USPS, I also have to either weigh it here and print a label > online, or schlep it down to the PO and wait in line to have them do that. Hint: you can buy/print USPS postage right from their website now. The interface is a tad kludgy but it sure beats waiting in line at the post office for 10 minutes (again, I can do a lot with 10 minutes). https://sss-web.usps.com/ds/jsps/ds_landing.jsp > If all that's not worth $5-6 for a small item or $10-15 for a > PC-sized item, a prospective buyer is welcome to kiss my butt and go > elsewhere. I charge a $6 packing fee on my auctions, and even that isn't enough. I'm just trying to be nice. Time *is* money! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 00:55:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > We are speaking of a pair of 80287 chips in a small box here, not a > PDP11 which certainly needs "handling & packing" ! Plus, a polite > answer from him would have been appreciated, and probably a positive > feedback, since I paid him immediatly, like I always do. > > My opinion is that he expected his 2 auctions to go higher than UDS > 0.99, that's all. As a buyer AND seller on ebay, I know that sometimes > you can be disapointed by the low price at which you have to "sell" > your items, but you should always remember that you don't complain > when the opposite happens ! Again I ask, did he mention the packing charges in his auction? If not he's a twit and should explicitly mention this. But if he did, and you missed it, $6 is not a lot to complain about. Now you know better. Avoid that seller from now on. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 00:57:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> >> OH, like DOS again! > >>> > > >>> >DOS is an operating system? ;) > >>> > > >>> > >>> Windows is not. It is an application interface. > >>> Dwight > >>> > >>> > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > Debatable for XP, ME Um, XP is based on 2000. It's the only really "stable" (I put that in quotes because my system has been teetering on the brink of oblivion for the past week...I just have too many open windows going to conveniently reboot) release of Windows so far. ME is definitely a pile of shit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 01:04:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > > Don't be silly. Of course DOS has interrupt handling. See e.g. > > > > > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! > Can we say 300 BAUD! > Grumpy PROGRAMER! I designed a state-machine based application that handled 3 serial ports (mutli-port serial card sharing on interrupt) simultaneously downloading data files at up to 19.2Kbps per channel. I also designed a system that used 2 standard COM ports simultaneously: one for remote access and one for transferring data. Worked fine at up to 19.2Kbps (the fastest cheap modems of the day, e.g. USR Sportsters). Under MS-DOS 6.22. So I have no idea what you're talking about really :/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 01:05:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <00ee01c4790b$d8fd5a20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, John Allain wrote: > Half of everything I have has something wierd about it, > like the MAC with an Apple-II card in it or the uVAX-II GPX > that was said to be Stallman's. Ew. Did you sterilize the keyboard before using it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Aug 3 01:06:40 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com><410E8257.5CC26007@rain.org><01a401c478c3$6d3a2720$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <006801c47920$0b225410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Jay let me know if you want to sell or trade the 2100's ok? ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:51 PM Subject: Re: rarest computers > > > > > Not the rarest hardware... but perhaps rarest running software... > > HP2000/Access TimeShared BASIC > > > > Dual bay cabinet, 7970E mag tape, 2748B paper tape reader, 2895B paper > > tape > > punch, 2100A cpu with 32K and floating point, 2100S cpu with 32K and > > IOP > > firmware, 12920Mux, 7900A disc drive, and 7906D disc drive. > > > > I'm in the process of converting it from dual 2100's to dual 21MX/E's. > > > > Jay West > > Hey Jay! is there any chance of getting this thing on the internet > so we can get accounts on it? > > I have a copy of "what to do after you hit return" (people's computer > company) > and I -might- key in some of the programs from there. > > > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 01:06:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, I met a former engineer from Exidy who explained that story. He said > > they scored something like 10,000 empty 8-track shell casings when > > 8-track tapes were on their way out in the late 1970s. They hired a kid > > to router out the interior and then the PCBs were set in place. > > The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw and file. > Well done they are not! Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard to homebrew. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From joe at barrera.org Tue Aug 3 01:09:23 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410F2C13.5020805@barrera.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Um, XP is based on 2000. Yes. > It's the only really "stable" (I put that > in quotes because my system has been teetering on the brink of > oblivion for the past week...I just have too many open windows going > to conveniently reboot) release of Windows so far. Only stable *consumer* version of Windows. Windows NT, 2000, 2003 are all nicely stable. I recommend 2000 as the best w/o activation issues. > ME is definitely a pile of shit. That seems to be the consensus. - Joe (former Microsoft employee, in the OS research group :-) From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Aug 2 23:48:40 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com><001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005001c4791f$5dc73560$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> what is the trainer? send me a picture sounds neat! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "JimD" To: "ed sharpe" ; ; "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:36 PM Subject: Re: rarest computers > ed sharpe wrote: > > >PARTS OF SAGE and parts of the Honeywell datamatic 1000 > >but those are parts.... does this count?----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bryan Pope" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:15 AM > >Subject: Re: rarest computers > > > > > > > > > > > I was given a National Radio Institute 832 trainer about 15 years ago. > Needs some work now. > > Jim Davis. > > From joe at barrera.org Tue Aug 3 01:11:46 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410F2CA2.5010002@barrera.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, John Allain wrote: > > > Half of everything I have has something wierd about it, like the > > MAC with an Apple-II card in it or the uVAX-II GPX that was said to > > be Stallman's. > > Ew. Did you sterilize the keyboard before using it? Can you imagine Stallman hairs coming out of it for years afterwards? Best to sterilize it in a furnace. - Joe From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 3 01:22:52 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops me bad on XP.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 1:57 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: What is an Operating System (was Electronics >>> Barn closing) >>> >>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> >>> > >>> >> OH, like DOS again! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >DOS is an operating system? ;) >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Windows is not. It is an application interface. >>> > >>> Dwight >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] >>> Not true >>> > NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] >>> Debatable for >>> > XP, ME >>> >>> Um, XP is based on 2000. It's the only really "stable" (I >>> put that in quotes because my system has been teetering on >>> the brink of oblivion for the past week...I just have too >>> many open windows going to conveniently >>> reboot) release of Windows so far. >>> >>> ME is definitely a pile of shit. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 3 01:25:50 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahh, but were you USING DOS [API services] for perfoming the Serial I/O or were you bypassing it and going to a lower [BIOS or Hardware] level...... That is the crux..... DOS did NOT work well (IIRC and others seem to agree) for serial I/O DOS was NOT a protected OS and allowed direct access to lower layers.. Therefore you could write good serial IO on a machine that was RUNNING dos, but you could NOT write high performace routines USING dos..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 2:04 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Electronics Barn closing >>> >>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: >>> >>> > Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >>> > >>> > > Don't be silly. Of course DOS has interrupt handling. See e.g. >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! >>> > Can we say 300 BAUD! >>> > Grumpy PROGRAMER! >>> >>> I designed a state-machine based application that handled 3 >>> serial ports (mutli-port serial card sharing on interrupt) >>> simultaneously downloading data files at up to 19.2Kbps per channel. >>> >>> I also designed a system that used 2 standard COM ports >>> simultaneously: >>> one for remote access and one for transferring data. >>> Worked fine at up to 19.2Kbps (the fastest cheap modems of >>> the day, e.g. USR Sportsters). >>> >>> Under MS-DOS 6.22. >>> >>> So I have no idea what you're talking about really :/ >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 01:28:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > > > Well I guess you have never used a SERIAL PORT under DOS! > > Can we say 300 BAUD! > > Grumpy PROGRAMER! > yes, DOS supported (and used) hardware interrupts, but not for > all devices... the serial ports happened to be non-interrupt > driven, as we all learned the hard way. Huh? I guess maybe if you went through the BIOS? I always used serial port libraries that ran the serial ports on their respective interrupts. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jimmydevice at verizon.net Tue Aug 3 01:30:07 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410F30EF.9000508@verizon.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > >>>>>>>OH, like DOS again! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>DOS is an operating system? ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Windows is not. It is an application interface. >>>>>Dwight >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] >>Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] >>Debatable for XP, ME >> >> > >Um, XP is based on 2000. It's the only really "stable" (I put that in >quotes because my system has been teetering on the brink of oblivion for >the past week...I just have too many open windows going to conveniently >reboot) release of Windows so far. > >ME is definitely a pile of shit. > > > W2K is your best bet for a semi stable gates sourced O/S. If you want to play games, It's your only option for now ;-) Jim Davis. For Now..... From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 3 01:34:40 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410F3200.1010007@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: >> If I sell you an item, I have to find (and usually pay for) a box >>that fits it for secure shipping, packing, tape, and labelling, and if >>it's shipped USPS, I also have to either weigh it here and print a label >>online, or schlep it down to the PO and wait in line to have them do that. > > > Hint: you can buy/print USPS postage right from their website now. The > interface is a tad kludgy but it sure beats waiting in line at the post > office for 10 minutes (again, I can do a lot with 10 minutes). > > https://sss-web.usps.com/ds/jsps/ds_landing.jsp Dang it, Sellam, even when you agree with me I don't like it! ;) Really, though, isn't your hint exactly what I said in the quoted paragraph? > I charge a $6 packing fee on my auctions, and even that isn't enough. I'm > just trying to be nice. > > Time *is* money! True facts. If it's a bigger-ticket item - over $100 - I can eat a little loss on S&H. If it's a huge item, it's even simpler. "I will help load this into whatever truck appears at my garage door." If it's something I'm selling cheap and not to a list-member or friend, I'm not about to end up losing money on the sale, or taking half an hour to gross $12USD. Doc From jimmydevice at verizon.net Tue Aug 3 01:38:08 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <005001c4791f$5dc73560$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com><001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> <005001c4791f$5dc73560$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <410F32D0.2080902@verizon.net> ed sharpe wrote: >what is the trainer? send me a picture sounds neat! > >Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > >Please check our web site at > http://www.smecc.org >to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we >buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. > >address: > > coury house / smecc >5802 w palmaire ave >glendale az 85301 > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "JimD" >To: "ed sharpe" ; ; "On-Topic and >Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:36 PM >Subject: Re: rarest computers > > > > >>ed sharpe wrote: >> >> >> >>>PARTS OF SAGE and parts of the Honeywell datamatic 1000 >>>but those are parts.... does this count?----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Bryan Pope" >>>To: >>>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:15 AM >>>Subject: Re: rarest computers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I was given a National Radio Institute 832 trainer about 15 years ago. >>Needs some work now. >> >>Jim Davis. >> >> >> >> > > > > > It looks like this: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=884 except that there is a incandecent 7 segment octal display installed in the center of the console, "the middle of the display panel" and a rotary switch for CPU clock select in the lower right.. Jim Davis. I'll post some pictures. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Aug 3 01:50:59 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <0408030650.AA06137@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > > Half of everything I have has something wierd about it, like the > > > MAC with an Apple-II card in it or the uVAX-II GPX that was said to > > > be Stallman's. > > > > Ew. Did you sterilize the keyboard before using it? > > Can you imagine Stallman hairs coming out of it for years afterwards? > > Best to sterilize it in a furnace. Stallman? Do you mean Richard Stallman of GNU fame? If so, what's so bad or contageous about him? While it's well known that I'm quite disapproving of GNU (which is strictly because GNU is anti-UNIX and I'm well known to be a priest of Holy UNIX), I have nothing against RMS personally and I'm quite shocked to see people make comments concerning him ("sterilize the keyboard" etc.) that one would expect to be made about, say, Dark Emperor BillG. MS From jimmydevice at verizon.net Tue Aug 3 01:54:09 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <410F32D0.2080902@verizon.net> References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com><001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> <005001c4791f$5dc73560$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <410F32D0.2080902@verizon.net> Message-ID: <410F3691.80508@verizon.net> JimD wrote: > ed sharpe wrote: > >> what is the trainer? send me a picture sounds neat! >> >> Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC >> >> Please check our web site at >> http://www.smecc.org >> to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we >> buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. >> >> address: >> >> coury house / smecc >> 5802 w palmaire ave >> glendale az 85301 >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JimD" >> To: "ed sharpe" ; ; >> "On-Topic and >> Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:36 PM >> Subject: Re: rarest computers >> >> >> >> >>> ed sharpe wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> PARTS OF SAGE and parts of the Honeywell datamatic 1000 >>>> but those are parts.... does this count?----- Original Message >>>> ----- From: "Bryan Pope" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:15 AM >>>> Subject: Re: rarest computers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I was given a National Radio Institute 832 trainer about 15 years ago. >>> Needs some work now. >>> >>> Jim Davis. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > It looks like this: > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=884 > except that there is a incandecent 7 segment octal display installed > in the > center of the console, "the middle of the display panel" and a rotary > switch for CPU clock select in the lower right.. > Jim Davis. I'll post some pictures. > You have motivated me to write an emulator for this beast. But I think I would like to add an extended memory option that will allow the implementation of some simple language. Jim Davis. Maybe use the 2 high memory registers as a page register? 14 byte code pages? Ouch! From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 3 01:55:11 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > all devices... the serial ports happened to be non-interrupt > > driven, as we all learned the hard way. > > Huh? I guess maybe if you went through the BIOS? I always used serial > port libraries that ran the serial ports on their respective interrupts. These libraries were NOT part of (standard) MS- or PC-DOS, so claiming "DOS used interrupts on serial ports" is false. And yes, we *all* used some form of add-on to speed em up. :) --f From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Aug 3 02:43:18 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021815.OAA20240@wordstock.com><001101c478fe$13ac6cf0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <410EFA39.6040705@verizon.net> <005001c4791f$5dc73560$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED><410F32D0.2080902@verizon.net> <410F3691.80508@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00ab01c4792d$8ae1a770$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> That is too cool! let me know if you find another... I can see a display with it and some of the NRI coursework. We have some ancient NRI stuff going back to the 20's and 30's too.... ( pre computer!) Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "JimD" To: ; "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:54 PM Subject: Re: rarest computers > JimD wrote: > > > ed sharpe wrote: > > > >> what is the trainer? send me a picture sounds neat! > >> > >> Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > >> > >> Please check our web site at > >> http://www.smecc.org > >> to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we > >> buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. > >> > >> address: > >> > >> coury house / smecc > >> 5802 w palmaire ave > >> glendale az 85301 > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JimD" > >> To: "ed sharpe" ; ; > >> "On-Topic and > >> Off-Topic Posts" > >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:36 PM > >> Subject: Re: rarest computers > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> ed sharpe wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> PARTS OF SAGE and parts of the Honeywell datamatic 1000 > >>>> but those are parts.... does this count?----- Original Message > >>>> ----- From: "Bryan Pope" > >>>> To: > >>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 11:15 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: rarest computers > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> I was given a National Radio Institute 832 trainer about 15 years ago. > >>> Needs some work now. > >>> > >>> Jim Davis. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > It looks like this: > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=884 > > except that there is a incandecent 7 segment octal display installed > > in the > > center of the console, "the middle of the display panel" and a rotary > > switch for CPU clock select in the lower right.. > > Jim Davis. I'll post some pictures. > > > You have motivated me to write an emulator for this beast. But I think > I would like to > add an extended memory option that will allow the implementation of > some simple language. > Jim Davis. > Maybe use the 2 high memory registers as a page register? 14 byte code > pages? Ouch! > > > From bert at brothom.nl Tue Aug 3 06:35:16 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) References: Message-ID: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > Debatable for XP, ME Why debatable for XP, ME? They are based on NT as well, aren't they? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 06:10:28 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 03:13, William Donzelli wrote: > 3) How many people have *significant* machines? One that made a dent in > history, even if it was something as mundane as an Apple II or a > PDP-11/34? Do you mean significant as in it might be a really common machine, but that particular one was used for something interesting / significant / important? Personally I like finding stuff like that - particularly machines (or even just stray hard disks, floppies, or paper-based data) which have been in use at old hardware or software manufacturers themselves. It's kinda nice finding 'lost' information, or stuff that gives an insight into the company themselves, or provides a snapshot of what they were doing at such-and-such a time. Typically people seem to collect such things for the hardware itself; i.e. hard disks or floppies get re-formatted and paper documentation gets thrown in the bin. Seems a shame that often no effort is made to preserve the data from the time itself, just the physical hardware. cheers, Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 06:28:28 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> from Bert Thomas at "Aug 3, 4 12:35:16 pm" Message-ID: <200408031128.EAA12412@floodgap.com> > > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > > Debatable for XP, ME > > Why debatable for XP, ME? They are based on NT as well, aren't they? XP is based on the NT kernel. ME is actually a modified 98 to try to disguise the DOS trappings (but it's still essentially 98). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- You've got to have a gimmick if your band sucks. -- Gary Giddens ----------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 06:25:23 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 22:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > Acorn System 5 (maybe 20 or so left worldwide?) > > I have one. Yes, but you have one of everything :-) Actually, IME ex-employees from the various hardware companies often seem to have stuff hidden away in storage from their days with the company, and have almost forgotten about it - as it's there just as a memento of their time there, rather than something that they consider collectable. In other words, it's hard to give estimates on surviving numbers of what were always uncommon machines, just because I get the impression there's a lot that'll never see daylight again until they end up as landfill... > > Torch Quad X (I don't know of any others left) > > I have one of those as well, missing a few trivial bits like the PSU > output cable. I do haev the mainboard, PSU, drives, etc. Any install media? That's one thing I don't have, so the machine's shelved until I can work out a good way of being able to back the drive up and restore it if needs be. I've actually got two QX's and a memory expansion board, but one CPU board is duff. > > Torch Triple X workstation (maybe 30 of those around?) > > I have a few, including one with a Quinring (5 slot VME expansion slice) > on top. The quinring's aren't common. The Torch Primagraphics workstation has one, plus I think I have one spare which isn't attached to a machine. If you ever need keyboards or mice, shout - I have around 15 of the critters :-) I've got 5 complete Triple X machines I think, plus a couple of spare boards, plus a prototype Triple X. Again, I need a good way of dragging the data off the drives on to modern media; once I've done that I'll have spare machines that I can give to people. > > RML 480Z metal-cased system > > And one of those _somewhere_... I'm not sure how many ended up with the metal cases; a guesstimate would be somewhere above 50 though. But then 380Z's were common as muck at one time and all seem to have vanished too. I found an RML advert in an old comp magazine at Bletchley of a pair of cream 480Z's along with a *white* 380Z at the weekend. I'm assuming it was a mock-up as I've never known of a white 380Z before. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 06:31:43 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <003c01c47902$7282d990$030aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <003c01c47902$7282d990$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <1091532702.25452.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 02:34, Rick Bensene wrote: > Here's my rarest: > > Tektronix 4132, running UTEK (A Tek-haved 4.2bsd variant). A National > 16032-based machine, with 4MB of RAM, dual RS-232, CDC 320MB SCSI 5 1/4" > HD, GPIB, built-in 10Mb Ethernet (AUI), QIC-24 tape drive. Have quite a > number of expansion boards, including additional RAM, RS232, SCSI, and > parallel printer interfaces. The network stack in these machines is > pretty broken...it doesn't know about subnetting other than basic class > A/B/C, and it forces broadcast to the zero address rather than the > now-standard ones address. > > Probably not too many of these machines around anymore that are running. > > I also have a Tek 6130 that I believe will still run. Same architecture > as the 4132, but earlier. That's interesting. I suppose my XD88 was the replacement for the 4132. It runs UTEK too, but of course on a newer 88k CPU. Unfortunately mine's only got the 8 bit display board in it, not the 24 bit. I believe that Tek sold hardly any of them, simply because they were way too expensive - very nice machines otherwise. cheers Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 3 06:37:05 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> References: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <03a2a4d84c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> Bert Thomas wrote: > "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > > > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > > Debatable for XP, ME > > Why debatable for XP, ME? They are based on NT as well, aren't they? XP = Windows 2000 with the "Teletubbies"-esque user interface ME = Windows 98, but about 1000x less stable and with more annoying features. If I had to use Windows, then on sub-500MHz machines, I'd use 98. On 500MHz (or faster) machines, I'd use 2k. Personally, I prefer Linux though. Especially when WINE behaves itself and runs my CAD software properly. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Error 216: Tagline out of paper From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 3 06:53:12 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:48 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) References: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> <03a2a4d84c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <005801c47950$744e7560$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 7:37 AM Subject: Re: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) > In message <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> > Bert Thomas wrote: > > > "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > > > > > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > > > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > > > Debatable for XP, ME > > > > Why debatable for XP, ME? They are based on NT as well, aren't they? > > XP = Windows 2000 with the "Teletubbies"-esque user interface > ME = Windows 98, but about 1000x less stable and with more annoying features. > If I had to use Windows, then on sub-500MHz machines, I'd use 98. On 500MHz > (or faster) machines, I'd use 2k. Personally, I prefer Linux though. > Especially when WINE behaves itself and runs my CAD software properly. > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, I found ME to either run stable or very unstable, its was very machine specific. ME and 9x also had major problems if you loaded them up with 768mb of ram or more. Win2k runs fine on slower equipment if it has allot of memory and more then one processor (My home built pr440fx motherboard with dual PPro 333 upgrades and 3 x 128MB EDO/ECC ram comes to mind). If your going to use Windows 9x, 98SE would be the optimal edition. From hansp at citem.org Tue Aug 3 07:05:46 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <410F7F9A.7090905@citem.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Typically people seem to collect such things for the hardware itself; > i.e. hard disks or floppies get re-formatted and paper documentation > gets thrown in the bin. Seems a shame that often no effort is made to > preserve the data from the time itself, just the physical hardware. AAAaaarrrggghhh... As I am always pounding into anyone that will listen, hardware with no documentation is practically useless. Documentation alone could be sufficient to rebuild the hardware. Therefore given the choice save the docs!! -- HansP From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 07:53:14 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <410F7F9A.7090905@citem.org> References: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <410F7F9A.7090905@citem.org> Message-ID: <1091537594.25452.99.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 12:05, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Typically people seem to collect such things for the hardware itself; > > i.e. hard disks or floppies get re-formatted and paper documentation > > gets thrown in the bin. Seems a shame that often no effort is made to > > preserve the data from the time itself, just the physical hardware. > > AAAaaarrrggghhh... As I am always pounding into anyone that will listen, > hardware with no documentation is practically useless. Documentation > alone could be sufficient to rebuild the hardware. Therefore given the > choice save the docs!! Yep, I know :( People on this list seem pretty good, but I come across lots of collectors / enthusiasts elsewhere who just want the hardware to play about on, with no thought about preserving associated data. Of course, always make a point of asking about software or documentation when accepting hardware from someone. Over here at least, experience has been that typically the owner assumes this to be unimportant and doesn't even mention anything they might have. Sometimes they dump the docs and software *before* offering the hardware to anyone, which is *really* annoying! It's not just the technical documentation or software that's important, but the user-land stuff that tells the story of how the machines were actually used in daily life. In 50 years time, long after the hardware's stopped functioning and replacements for custom parts aren't available, it's this aspect that I expect people will be interested in. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 3 08:02:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay Message-ID: <007e01c4795a$12a160c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I didn't bid on this (was preparing to snipe), but finally talked to the other bidder and was sure the documentation would be preserved on bitsavers. Turns out some other third person won the auction who I don't recognize their ebay userid. I sure hope it was a classiccmp'er and we'll all benefit from the archival of the documents. If not... it's probably lost. Big shame, looked like some great stuff. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 3 08:12:04 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: Message-ID: <16655.36644.547295.10451@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> Regarding a message that appeared on this thread with the David> approximate quote: >>> Crysital Oscliattors Quite Bad with a tolerance of 0.01& lead to >>> an error David> of over a minute per dat David> [sorry I it the delete key too quickly on the message to post David> the EXACT text] David> 1 Day = 86400 seconds * 0.01% [100 ppm] = 8.64 SECONDS per David> day. Oops. David> Not good enough for long term time keeping but much better David> than the previous poster indicated. Yup. Right conclusion, wrong numbers. David> I was involved in the development of som Military systems David> [1979-1983] that used a tempe0rature stabilized crystal with David> 0.5ppm stability. To the best of my knowledge this was a David> "state of the art" implementation of automomous time keeping David> for 1979. 0.5 ppm for boxes that get carried around in military trucks and bounced around in the field -- that's quite good. For something that's sitting in a reasonably controlled environment, that's not so great; I think that 10^-8 would be considered state of the art for OXCOs (1970s or not). For autonomous timekeeping independent of technology, the state of the art was a second per year or so (that's 10^-8, roughly) around the early 1900s. First with pendulum clocks (Shortt clock), then around the 1940s or so crystal clocks came in that could match this. And not too long after that there came the rubidium (10^-10) and cesium (10^-14) clocks. Some of that would be found in military gear, I think (Rb at least, Cs somewhat less likely). Consider GPS satellites, which have either or both built-in. paul From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 3 08:08:36 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <1091537594.25452.99.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 3, 04 12:53:14 pm Message-ID: <200408031308.JAA10548@wordstock.com> And thusly Jules Richardson spake: > > People on this list seem pretty good, but I come across lots of > collectors / enthusiasts elsewhere who just want the hardware to play > about on, with no thought about preserving associated data. > > Of course, always make a point of asking about software or documentation > when accepting hardware from someone. Over here at least, experience has > been that typically the owner assumes this to be unimportant and doesn't > even mention anything they might have. Sometimes they dump the docs and > software *before* offering the hardware to anyone, which is *really* > annoying! > > It's not just the technical documentation or software that's important, > but the user-land stuff that tells the story of how the machines were > actually used in daily life. In 50 years time, long after the hardware's > stopped functioning and replacements for custom parts aren't available, > it's this aspect that I expect people will be interested in. Another part of documentation I love to collect is all of the associated magazines.. Not just for the articles but also for the ads. These also show a snapshot of that time. Cheers, Bryan Pope P.S. I have to admit I also like the pics in the mags too.... ;-) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 3 07:44:49 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) In-Reply-To: <002901c478eb$16a6bbd0$0500fea9@game> References: <012f01c474da$3cb369a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <16653.23145.727000.803803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3.0.6.32.20040802190121.00877b40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040803084449.00980810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:47 PM 8/2/04 -0400, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: >On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:01 PM >Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > >> >> Considering the English colonial past, the English don't have the right >> to complain about anything! Not only see Opium wars, see black slavery >> (who do you think shipped the slaves to America and the Caribeaan in >> exchange for sugar and rum?), Irish potato famine, Endentured Servitude >> (another word for slavery), debitor's prison, scalp bounties (both in >North >> American and for Australian Aborigines), press gangs (ship's crews). Then >> go see American Revolution! >> >> Now do you REALLY want to get into a debate about English colonial >past???? >> >> My 2 cents worth, >> Joe > >I think the British did outlaw outright slavery before we did in the US (not >sure what their reason would be). Correct. About 1840 IIRC. I think the French outlawed it about the same time. I do find it comical when blacks ask for >reparations for slavery, since it was black people in Africa enslaving other >blacks in the first place, the brits just provided shipping to get them here >to the US. When and IF they ever find a black in america that WAS a slave then he or she might be entitled to reparations but their descendents have no grounds for asking for reparations. In fact, perhaps we should bill them for the war that was fought to free them from slavery (if you believe the popular history). In addition many of the people that are asking for them have migrated to the US SINCE the end of the civil war but they think that just because they're black they're entitled to a free handout. FWIW slavery is still alive and well in Africa today. > >Personally I don't think people alive today have any reason to bitch about >what happened to any of their people or relatives that were not alive when >they were born. AGREED! I expect everyone on earth has a gripe about something in their part. The Irish do, The American Indians and Australian Aborigines certainly do and those are only a couple of the more recent events. Joe Ancient history is just that, history. look at what has >happened in the Balkans over the last 100 years, people avenging things that >happened centuries before they or anybody they ever met was born. What would >you tell an American Indian that comes to your door saying he legally owns >the land your house was built on because his tribe was not paid for it 150 >years ago? If the Vietnamese can forgive us for what we did in their country >30+ years ago the rest of the world can forgive what happened 1000 years >ago. > > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 3 08:16:17 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Random Number seeds,was RE: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040803091617.008dc100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:53 PM 8/2/04 -0400, John wrote: > > >On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> And if you are going to pick nits, can you please save them in a bag and >> send them to me? I like to sprinkle them on my breakfast eggs. > > > Damn, that's just lousy. Not if you eat them soon enough! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 3 07:42:23 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) In-Reply-To: References: <002901c478eb$16a6bbd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040803084223.00980a30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:31 PM 8/2/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I think the British did outlaw outright slavery before we did in the US (not >> sure what their reason would be). I do find it comical when blacks ask for >> reparations for slavery, since it was black people in Africa enslaving other >> blacks in the first place, the brits just provided shipping to get them here >> to the US. > >Ugh. There is this little thing called "demand" that, in most systems of >trade, works in unison with the concept of "supply". Just like the modern drug trade! Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 3 08:19:57 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <200408021954.08445.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200408022007.49746.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <16655.37117.541855.896863@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Lyle" == Lyle Bickley writes: Lyle> BTW: The Sage system (tube based) predates the 709x systems Lyle> (discrete component/transistor based) and was in use from Lyle> 1956-63. There's a SAGE manual on-line in Al Kossow's website (under "ibm"). I skimmed through it, looking for a discussion of time sources. Saw none, much to my surprise. I suppose it might come embedded in the radar data stream, or something like that. Neat document. Very impressive machine, amazing quantity of data processed for that era... paul From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 3 08:22:57 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: Message-ID: <00af01c4795c$fe95d180$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> ...VAX-II GPX that was said to be Stallman's. > Ew. Did you sterilize the keyboard before using it? Lucky me, no keyboard. Uses a 'stock' lk201. John A. From vax3900 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 08:35:55 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 03:13, William Donzelli wrote: > > 3) How many people have *significant* machines? > One that made a dent in > > history, even if it was something as mundane as an > Apple II or a > > PDP-11/34? > > Do you mean significant as in it might be a really > common machine, but > that particular one was used for something > interesting / significant / > important? > > Personally I like finding stuff like that - > particularly machines (or > even just stray hard disks, floppies, or paper-based > data) which have > been in use at old hardware or software > manufacturers themselves. It's > kinda nice finding 'lost' information, or stuff that > gives an insight > into the company themselves, or provides a snapshot > of what they were > doing at such-and-such a time. > > Typically people seem to collect such things for the > hardware itself; > i.e. hard disks or floppies get re-formatted and > paper documentation > gets thrown in the bin. Seems a shame that often no > effort is made to > preserve the data from the time itself, just the > physical hardware. Well... I keep information on hard disks that come with old computers if the information is interesting. For example, I have e-birthday cards sent to an secretary by her colleagues; emails from her husband explaining why he was not having an affair; emails from a mom to a college son that she thought it would be good for him if he could learn something other than wasting his time.... But usually it is private and all I can't do anything with it. vax, 3900 > > cheers, > > Jules > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 3 08:50:41 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation References: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > For example, I have e-birthday cards sent to an > secretary by her colleagues; emails from her husband > explaining... COMPLETELY unethical to spend more than a minute reading such personal stuff IMHO. It is a partially the fault of the previous owner, partially the fault of the O/S vendor to not sterilize the machine before getting it out, but I don't think that exonerates you. If we are to be respected in this hobby I think we should step up and give personal data honorable burial. This will someday happen: Someone will do something really unethical with thrown HD information and various localities will have to install shredding equipment for incoming computers. Greenwich seems to already be doing a variant of this. John A. Los Alamos, NM (Now I'm joking) From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 3 09:10:06 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Blinkenlight lamps References: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Here are just six types of controlpanel lamps that I was able to find at ElectronicBarn: http://www.panix.com/~allain/P7300001e.jpg (17KBytes) The ones on the left seem familliar but I can't remember where I might have seen that type of spade bottom before... anybody? John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 3 09:13:25 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16655.37117.541855.896863@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > There's a SAGE manual on-line in Al Kossow's website (under "ibm"). > I skimmed through it, looking for a discussion of time sources. Saw > none, much to my surprise. I suppose it might come embedded in the > radar data stream, or something like that. No, the streams were just digitized radar video. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 3 09:17:06 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Do you mean significant as in it might be a really common machine, but > that particular one was used for something interesting / significant / > important? Yes. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vax3900 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 09:28:37 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20040803142837.19106.qmail@web51810.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > > For example, I have e-birthday cards sent to an > > secretary by her colleagues; emails from her > husband > > explaining... > > COMPLETELY unethical to spend more than a minute > reading such > personal stuff IMHO. It is a partially the fault of > the previous owner, > partially the fault of the O/S vendor to not > sterilize the machine before > getting it out, but I don't think that exonerates > you. If we are to be > respected in this hobby I think we should step up > and give personal > data honorable burial. > > This will someday happen: Someone will do something > really unethical > with thrown HD information and various localities > will have to install > shredding equipment for incoming computers. > Greenwich seems to already be doing a variant of > this. Well... I am not that bad. First, I knew how to extract three PERMANENT university email account/password information from those HDs but I didn't do that but deleted those files. Second, I didn't show anybody else the files. My intention was to give the files back to the original owner (if I can find them) but I dropped that idea after I read them. My fault was that I read them with curiosity. I keep them because they have information... The information will be lost forever if I type in the delete command. What do you do with your kids' 'art work' from daycare/preschool? When you have no room for them you understand the dilemma I was facing. vax, 3900 > > John A. > Los Alamos, NM > (Now I'm joking) > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rickb at bensene.com Tue Aug 3 09:31:16 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091532702.25452.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004301c47966$8b7c49e0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Actually, there were some other machines between the 6132 and the XD88. These machines were the 4300-series, like the 4319. The 4300-Series machines I believe used 68020's, IIRC. I have a 4319 around here somewhere -- I think it still runs. These also ran UTEK. I worked at Tek during the days of ECS (Engineering Computing Systems). There were a lot of VERY talented people there. Early on, sometime in the late 1970's, Tek developed a very interesting machine called Magnolia. It was never productized to my knowledge, as there were all kinds of problems getting senior management of an oscilloscope and test equipment company to buy into the idea of making a computer. The Magnolia used a custom bit-slice CPU that was very fast for the time. It had an amazing display processor also. The machine was built into a pedastal that a 19" or so raster display sat on top of. It used solid-state main memory, and a Micropolis 8" hard disk mounted in the bottom of the base. It ran Smalltalk, with a completely in-house developed windowing desktop environment, reminiscent of the Xerox PARC implementations. Tek made quite a few of these machines that were used in-house to develop on. The project was eventually cancelled. Don't know what happened to the machines that were in existence at the time. I'd be surprized if any still exist today. Early on at Tek, there was a lot of PDP-8's running OS-8, and PDP-11's running RT11 and RSX as test system controllers, and even one system called the "DPO", which was a digitizer interfaced to a PDP-11 (not user which, probably a /35) that had a Tek DVST terminal hooked up to it. DPO stood for "Digital Processing Oscilloscope". They made a dialect of BASIC that had primitives in it for doing signal processing on acquired signals. It was a BIG piece of equipment, but could do some amazing signal capture and analysis for the time. I think that the DPO ran RT-11, if I remember correctly. Later, Tek developed a microprocessor development system that utilized an LSI-11 core. It was called the 8250. The 8250 used an 8" Micropolis drive, and ran a modified AT&T System III Unix operating system. This was all done under the microprocessor development products group (MDP). These machines provided a basis by which Unix gained a foothold in the company. Then, ECS was formed at the Tek Wilsonville plant. Their idea of what they were building was a workstation-class UNIX machine that'd blow the socks off of everyting out there. However, the politics of the situation was that management expected them to build an instrument controller for automated test environments. The result was the 6130, which was rather weak as a workstation (no display subsystem, only RS-232 serial to a terminal), but worked nicely as an instrument controller with its built-in GPIB (IEEE-488) interface. Attempts were made to develop a display subsystem for the machine...a big daughter board that plugged in on-top of the main CPU board. Prototypes were built, and mods to UTEK were made to support it, and even a primitive window system was developed. However, Tek's instrument mentality wouldn't let the project continue, and it was cancelled. The 4132 follow-on to the 6130 was done mainly because of the proliferation of SCSI. The 6130 used ST-506 disks (though a SCSI add-on board was available), which were starting to become less popular. The 4132 replaced the ST-506 interface with an integrated SCSI controller, and replaced the floppy disc drive with a SCSI 1/4" streaming cartridge tape drive. This made OS loading a LOT faster. To load the OS on the 6130, you had to load a big stack of floppies! The 4132 didn't have a video system, just RS-232 ports for console communications. Then the 43xx workstations came out. These were true Unix workstations, running a new version of Utek, with a full X-Windows implementation and a decent display processor. They were quite capable machines for their time. The 4315 was marketed as an "AI workstation" with a smalltalk environment. The 4319 was a higher-end Unix workstation, inteded for CAD and software development. The last hurrah for ECS was the XD88. There were MASSIVE arguments internally about what CPU to use. There was talk of the Z8000, but eventually the Motorola 88000 won out. The XD88's were really powerful machines, designed chiefly for electrical and mechanical CAD design. Sadly, Tektronix never really figured out that it had the capacity to build nice computers. The instrumentation and terminals mentality of the company kept the thinking limited to these areas. Sales folks had a hard time relating to the concept of a computer workstation. A lot of money and effort was expended to put Tektronix on the map in the computer biz. But, in the end, it was all for naught. ECS was disbanded. Some of the folks left to form other local computer companies, including BIIN among others. All from memory, there may be some errors. -Rick Had Tek developed the Magnolia and started selling it as a real workstation. > > That's interesting. I suppose my XD88 was the replacement for > the 4132. It runs UTEK too, but of course on a newer 88k CPU. > Unfortunately mine's only got the 8 bit display board in it, > not the 24 bit. I believe that Tek sold hardly any of them, > simply because they were way too expensive > - very nice machines otherwise. > > cheers > > Jules > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 3 09:34:12 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Blinkenlight lamps In-Reply-To: <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040803103412.009b3100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> They looks like the lamps used in a LOT of telephone equipment. The 48VDC rating tends to confirm that that's what they're for. Joe At 10:10 AM 8/3/04 -0400, you wrote: >Here are just six types of controlpanel lamps >that I was able to find at ElectronicBarn: >http://www.panix.com/~allain/P7300001e.jpg (17KBytes) > >The ones on the left seem familliar but I can't remember >where I might have seen that type of spade bottom before... >anybody? > >John A. > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 3 10:01:22 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16655.36644.547295.10451@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul, The system I was working on was rack-mount...on a submarine [NATO Walrus Class - launched circa 1984] I completely agree that there were other more accurate sources [of which youy name a few. I should have been more precise in my statement. I was comparing it to other board mountable electronic clock sources [since we were discussing crystals]. The system in question actually connected to a highly accurate 1PPS External source that was slaved to a radio clock under normal circumstances. However our rack need to maintain time even in the event of external failures. It was deemed that a <50mS error per day under error conditions was acceptable. David >>>>> >>>>> I was involved in the development of soms Military >>>>> systems [1979-1983] that used a tempe0rature >>>>> stabilized crystal with 0.5ppm stability. To the >>>>> best of my knowledge this was a "state of the art" >>>>> implementation of automomous time keeping for 1979. >>>>> >>> 0.5 ppm for boxes that get carried around in military >>> trucks and bounced around in the field -- that's quite >>> good. For something that's sitting in a reasonably >>> controlled environment, that's not so great; >>> I think that 10^-8 would be considered state of >>> the art for OXCOs (1970s or not). >>> >>> For autonomous timekeeping independent of technology, the >>> state of the art was a second per year or so (that's 10^-8, >>> roughly) around the early 1900s. First with pendulum >>> clocks (Shortt clock), then around the 1940s or so crystal >>> clocks came in that could match this. And not too long >>> after that there came the rubidium (10^-10) and cesium >>> (10^-14) clocks. Some of that would be found in military >>> gear, I think (Rb at least, Cs somewhat less likely). >>> Consider GPS satellites, which have either or both built-in. >>> >>> paul >>> From aek at spies.com Tue Aug 3 10:10:32 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history Message-ID: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> Later, Tek developed a microprocessor development system that utilized an LSI-11 core. It was called the 8250. -- 8550 and 8560 It was an evolultion of the systems that started with the 8002 8550s have an 11/02 in them and ran an OS called DOS-50, which I would REALLY like to find. The 8560s are UTEK machines starting with 11/23s and 8" drives and evolving through 11/73s and 5" drives. I have an 8560 with an 8" drive and would like to find the service manual for it (I have the svc docs for the 5" version). There is a fair amt of scanned documentation on the 8002->8560 up now on bitsavers. And dovetailing into Hans' comments, it is VERY difficult to find the documentation and software for these systems, while the hardware shows up at hamfests and on eBay frequently. From aek at spies.com Tue Aug 3 10:16:49 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay Message-ID: <20040803151649.5D55D3C81@spies.com> I didn't bid on this (was preparing to snipe), but finally talked to the other bidder and was sure the documentation would be preserved on bitsavers. -- Copies of those documents have been scanned, and are in the queue to be pdf'ed I probably should put up a list of what has been done to see if people would volunteer to postprocess the scans. On a good day, I can finish about 1000 pages while on average I have been scanning about 4x that per day. I just checked the /scan directory and it's around 80gb, with only about 25gb postprocessed. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Aug 2 13:52:44 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> <410E8257.5CC26007@rain.org> Message-ID: Probably all not *really* rare, but rather odd and not readily available: Mattel Aquairus - See these from time to time. Should've got the tape drive while I could from Salvation Army. Bell & Howell Apple II OEM - I guess these are somewhat rare. My school had a whole bunch of them, and threw almost all of them away. Probably the fate of most Apple IIs. Data General Nova 3 - Probably not that rare, but I don't see many. Apple IIc Plus - Only made for a year or so. Again, not ultra-rare, but not often seen around. Magnevox Odyssey 1 - Not really a computer (It was analog!), but farily uncommon, and predecessor to the really-a-computer Odyssey 2. Sharp plotting calculator - Forgot the model number, it's in the archives somewhere. A battery operated desktop calculator with 4-color pen plotter! This is the only calculator I've seen with a built-in plotter. Quadex Q500 - Desktop publishing minicomputer. Can't even find info online about this thing. I guess it was one of the first minicomputer-based DTP systems, even has a special desk the CPU and 8" Floppy/winchester disk fits into. Creative Labs 3DBlaster - A 3DO game system on an ISA card. Not many were made, and 3DO didn't live long. IBM EduCase Model 25 - A big, chunky 486 multimedia version of the classic PS/2 Model 25 all-in-one computer. Only sold to educational markets, not many were bought (They were EXPENSIVE) From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 3 10:30:20 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 2, 04 02:52:44 pm Message-ID: <200408031530.LAA15714@wordstock.com> And thusly Jason McBrien spake: > > Apple IIc Plus - Only made for a year or so. Again, not ultra-rare, but not > often seen around. Is this the one that has a small form factor? > > Magnevox Odyssey 1 - Not really a computer (It was analog!), but farily > uncommon, and predecessor to the really-a-computer Odyssey 2. Wow! I didn't know this.. (that it's analog) .. very cool! :) Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 3 10:37:16 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay References: <20040803151649.5D55D3C81@spies.com> Message-ID: <003d01c4796f$c183fd40$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Al wrote... > Copies of those documents have been scanned, and are in the queue to be pdf'ed Ok... I had an older version of the 2100 interfacing book, the microprogramming book I think I didn't have. But most importantly the pocket guide to the 2100 (funny it's titled a "pocket guide" when it's 500 pages), I do not have and definitely wanted. Thanks! Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Aug 3 10:43:57 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I have a pretty big stack of Ohio Scientific... hardware, software, documentation and advertising. I never thought it was that rare, but then Sellam told me that he has a very hard time turning up OSI stuff, so maybe it's a little rare. One thing that I have that is quite possibly a one-of-a-kind is a cardboard mock-up of the plastic "Series 2" case, although (to my constant annoyance) I have not been able to acquire an actual Series 2. The mock-up was bought at the asset liquidation when things finally folded. The original purchaser was going to use the metal parts (same as a C4P) to build another computer but, thankfully, never got around to it. Bill From cb at mythtech.net Tue Aug 3 10:52:21 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: >> Apple IIc Plus - Only made for a year or so. Again, not ultra-rare, but not >> often seen around. > >Is this the one that has a small form factor? It is a small form factor Apple II series. Looks kind of like a small briefcase or a laptop without a screen. The difference between the IIc+ and the regular IIc is the IIc+ has an integrated power supply and a 3.5" floppy drive. (The regular IIc has a 5.25" drive and requires an external power brick). -chris From cb at mythtech.net Tue Aug 3 10:53:21 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: >> Magnevox Odyssey 1 - Not really a computer (It was analog!), but farily >> uncommon, and predecessor to the really-a-computer Odyssey 2. I have one of these, but I'm missing most of the overlays. Also the rifle for some of the games is long since trashed. Some day I'll dig the thing out and see if the system itself still works. -chris From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Aug 3 11:19:40 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: My rare machines : A Philips P857 16 bit mini. Has a nice blinkenlights panel. The ETH Lilith Modula2 workstation. A Tek4014 terminal. Once plentifull, but how many did survive ? DG MP200, sadly no disk cartridge for it. My homebuilt 12 bit TTL machine. Probably just as well that only one exists.... Jos From sloboyko at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 11:38:30 2004 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <200408031102.i73B18bh089987@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040803163830.20267.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> Ron Hudson Stated: >Another problem with most modern stuff is that it is >surface mount tiny "you can't work on it without >special tools" not meant for repair, only for >replacement. This is not really a problem with surface mount. I thought this would be impossible too - then I built, as my first SMT project, a Nixie tube watch - with "over 45" eyeballs that never worked perfectly. http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/nixwatch.htm I invested in only: 1. A GOOD temperature controlled iron ($50) from eBay 2. Good (but not great) tweezers ($5.00) 3. $5.00 set of eye loupes 4. $110.00 - a hot air rework station from eBay (I didn't really need this) 5. Some flux "markers" and some really thin solder from Digi-Key - around $20 Nice things about surface mount are that the parts are really cheap, you can get a lot more stuff on a board (board cost), and the parts can be fairly easily recycled (especially with the rework station). The real problem as I see it is the proliferation of parts. The Digi-Key catalog is like, 10 times the size it was in the 70/80's. Parts come and go very quickly now. And with ASICs, you are at the mercy of the manufacturer. I am concerned that all the TTL in the surplus market now is all that there is-I can't beleive that anyone is making any more. Wire-wrap sockets and quality punched boards are getting very expensive. ===== -Steve Loboyko Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie: "When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day." Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 11:40:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Ahh, but were you USING DOS [API services] for perfoming the Serial I/O or > were you bypassing it and going to a lower [BIOS or Hardware] level...... Of course! Who would try to write a serious serial application going throgh DOS?? > Therefore you could write good serial IO on a machine that was RUNNING dos, > but you could NOT write high performace routines USING dos..... I would have never dreamed of doing so. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 11:42:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: <410F3200.1010007@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> If I sell you an item, I have to find (and usually pay for) a box > >>that fits it for secure shipping, packing, tape, and labelling, and if > >>it's shipped USPS, I also have to either weigh it here and print a label > >>online, or schlep it down to the PO and wait in line to have them do that. > > > > > > Hint: you can buy/print USPS postage right from their website now. The > > interface is a tad kludgy but it sure beats waiting in line at the post > > office for 10 minutes (again, I can do a lot with 10 minutes). > > > > https://sss-web.usps.com/ds/jsps/ds_landing.jsp > > Dang it, Sellam, even when you agree with me I don't like it! ;) > > Really, though, isn't your hint exactly what I said in the quoted > paragraph? Oops. Duh. Sorry, I read through too fast to catch that part. Oh well, it's still instructive for other people. I didn't find out about it until earlier in the year. It sure is a time-saver. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hansp at citem.org Tue Aug 3 11:46:36 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <200408031308.JAA10548@wordstock.com> References: <200408031308.JAA10548@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <410FC16C.6090709@citem.org> Bryan Pope wrote: > Another part of documentation I love to collect is all of the associated > magazines.. Not just for the articles but also for the ads. These also > show a snapshot of that time. Yes magazine ads provide us with lots of info, like date of availability and pricing. Even the packaging of the computers is valuable. I was most annoyed when I found that an Atari box had been trashed. It was not in great condition but that was no excuse.... -- HansP From hansp at citem.org Tue Aug 3 11:50:08 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> References: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> Message-ID: <410FC240.3040504@citem.org> Al Kossow wrote: > And dovetailing into Hans' comments, it is VERY difficult to find > the documentation and software for these systems, while the hardware > shows up at hamfests and on eBay frequently. Hmm, perhaps you can put up a list of these really difficult to find docs, you never know some of us might be sitting on them not knowing how rare they are. For example the comment a little while ago about seeing a "rare" PDP-9, I see one very day at the collection so for me it is not such a rarity ;-) Regards, -- HansP From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 11:52:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > Well... I keep information on hard disks that come > with old computers if the information is interesting. > For example, I have e-birthday cards sent to an > secretary by her colleagues; emails from her husband > explaining why he was not having an affair; emails > from a mom to a college son that she thought it would > be good for him if he could learn something other than > wasting his time.... But usually it is private and all > I can't do anything with it. This sort of stuff is going to be HIGHLY valuable archaeological data for future researchers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 3 11:59:40 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040803125940.0095f380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:10 AM 8/3/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Later, Tek developed a microprocessor development system that utilized >an LSI-11 core. >It was called the 8250. > I just passed one up in a scrap yard. It had a pod for the Mil-Std-1750 processor hanging off of it. Joe >-- > >8550 and 8560 > >It was an evolultion of the systems that started with the 8002 >8550s have an 11/02 in them and ran an OS called DOS-50, which >I would REALLY like to find. The 8560s are UTEK machines starting >with 11/23s and 8" drives and evolving through 11/73s and 5" drives. >I have an 8560 with an 8" drive and would like to find the service >manual for it (I have the svc docs for the 5" version). > >There is a fair amt of scanned documentation on the 8002->8560 up >now on bitsavers. > >And dovetailing into Hans' comments, it is VERY difficult to find >the documentation and software for these systems, while the hardware >shows up at hamfests and on eBay frequently. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 3 12:02:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay In-Reply-To: <003d01c4796f$c183fd40$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <20040803151649.5D55D3C81@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040803130252.00961ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:37 AM 8/3/04 -0500, you wrote: >Al wrote... > >> Copies of those documents have been scanned, and are in the queue to be >pdf'ed > >Ok... I had an older version of the 2100 interfacing book, the >microprogramming book I think I didn't have. > >But most importantly the pocket guide to the 2100 (funny it's titled a >"pocket guide" when it's 500 pages), I do not have and definitely wanted. I had one of those that I took to the HP Calculator conference out in Portland about 5 years ago and gave to someone. But I can't remember who it was! Joe From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 11:58:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, John Allain wrote: > > For example, I have e-birthday cards sent to an > > secretary by her colleagues; emails from her husband > > explaining... > > COMPLETELY unethical to spend more than a minute reading such > personal stuff IMHO. It is a partially the fault of the previous owner, > partially the fault of the O/S vendor to not sterilize the machine before > getting it out, but I don't think that exonerates you. If we are to be > respected in this hobby I think we should step up and give personal > data honorable burial. John, I totally AGREE and DISAGREE at the same time. I don't think it's unethical to read that sort of data AS LONG AS YOU DON'T DIVULGE IT TO ANYONE ELSE OR USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE, in which case that would be unethical. It would be a loss to future generations if we were to wipe that data without considering the value to archaeological and sociological studies. People keep everything in their computers today, and very little elsewhere. In 50-100 years time and beyond, hard drives of today will hold a snapshot of our modern society and help our descendents understand us (believe me, they'll need all the help they can get). > This will someday happen: Someone will do something really unethical > with thrown HD information and various localities will have to install > shredding equipment for incoming computers. I offer people the service of wiping their hard drive when they drop their computers off for recycling. About a third take me up on the offer; a third have already removed the hard drive; the other third don't care or don't deem their personal stuff juicy enough to worry them about whose hands it might fall in to. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 12:06:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? Message-ID: <200408031706.KAA27683@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" ---snip--- > >For autonomous timekeeping independent of technology, the state of the >art was a second per year or so (that's 10^-8, roughly) around the >early 1900s. First with pendulum clocks (Shortt clock), then around >the 1940s or so crystal clocks came in that could match this. And not >too long after that there came the rubidium (10^-10) and cesium >(10^-14) clocks. Some of that would be found in military gear, I >think (Rb at least, Cs somewhat less likely). Consider GPS >satellites, which have either or both built-in. > > paul > > Hi I thought I'd mention that GPS satellites are very precise but no longer accurate. The world standards like UTC are not on the same second as used for GPS. I don't recall how far things have changed but for political and other reasons, the world time standards have been changing. GPS are still locked to being relative to particular data and time. Every one else has had a few leap seconds here and there. There is a chart someplace on the web that shows how things are. Dwight From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 3 12:06:49 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: EPROM Erase or Program service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410FC629.1080709@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > > >>Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >> >>>On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> >>>> If I sell you an item, I have to find (and usually pay for) a box >>>>that fits it for secure shipping, packing, tape, and labelling, and if >>>>it's shipped USPS, I also have to either weigh it here and print a label >>>>online, or schlep it down to the PO and wait in line to have them do that. >>> >>> >>>Hint: you can buy/print USPS postage right from their website now. The >>>interface is a tad kludgy but it sure beats waiting in line at the post >>>office for 10 minutes (again, I can do a lot with 10 minutes). >>> >>>https://sss-web.usps.com/ds/jsps/ds_landing.jsp >> >> Dang it, Sellam, even when you agree with me I don't like it! ;) >> >> Really, though, isn't your hint exactly what I said in the quoted >>paragraph? > > > Oops. Duh. Sorry, I read through too fast to catch that part. Oh well, > it's still instructive for other people. I didn't find out about it until > earlier in the year. It sure is a time-saver. Yes, it is. Life got much better when they started that. :) Doc From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 12:12:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > Creative Labs 3DBlaster - A 3DO game system on an ISA card. Not many were > made, and 3DO didn't live long. Woah, cool! Do you have more information on this? A quick web search pulls up nothing of note. A photo perhaps? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 12:14:48 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <200408031714.KAA27690@clulw009.amd.com> Hi OK, I do have one that is going to be an unusual one that is significant in its insignificance. It is a SDK development machine for Intel's 2920 ( not to be confused with AMD's 2920 of the 2900 family of parts ). This was Intel's only attempt at the DSP market. It is only unique in that it is rare enough that few even know it existed. It was a time when Intel chose it's direction to be a mostly X86 processor company and began to leave the side markets alone ( for good or bad ). There may be others out there but I've not seen any. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 12:17:38 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Well, I have a pretty big stack of Ohio Scientific... hardware, > software, documentation and advertising. I never thought it was > that rare, but then Sellam told me that he has a very hard time > turning up OSI stuff, so maybe it's a little rare. OSI stuff has traditionally been hard to turn up (for me at least). It took several years of collecting before I got my first OSI system. Now I have a few various models, all given to me by various people ironically. Bob Maxwell had the coolest and rarest OSI computer at VCF East: a model 300 (OSI's first kit?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 3 12:19:20 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <410FC240.3040504@citem.org> References: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> <410FC240.3040504@citem.org> Message-ID: >Hmm, perhaps you can put up a list of these really difficult to find >docs, you never know some of us might be sitting on them not knowing >how rare they are. This strikes me as a first rate idea! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 12:19:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, chris wrote: > >> Apple IIc Plus - Only made for a year or so. Again, not ultra-rare, but not > >> often seen around. > > > >Is this the one that has a small form factor? > > It is a small form factor Apple II series. Looks kind of like a small > briefcase or a laptop without a screen. > > The difference between the IIc+ and the regular IIc is the IIc+ has an > integrated power supply and a 3.5" floppy drive. (The regular IIc has a > 5.25" drive and requires an external power brick). And a faster processor (3.3Mhz). http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=36&st=1 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 12:19:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:49 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, chris wrote: > >> Magnevox Odyssey 1 - Not really a computer (It was analog!), but farily > >> uncommon, and predecessor to the really-a-computer Odyssey 2. > > I have one of these, but I'm missing most of the overlays. Also the rifle > for some of the games is long since trashed. Some day I'll dig the thing > out and see if the system itself still works. I got one of mine working recently. It was pretty cool to see it actually work for the first time. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:24:57 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <410FCA69.8030806@frixxon.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I found an RML advert in an old comp magazine at Bletchley of a pair of > cream 480Z's along with a *white* 380Z at the weekend. I'm assuming it > was a mock-up as I've never known of a white 380Z before. White prototype machines were available for five months before the first production 380Zs rolled out. The power switch didn't have a key, and the floppy disk interface card wasn't available. I don't know how many were made, but at least one is still in private hands. -- Paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 13:09:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> References: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20040803105801.E38429@shell.lmi.net> > "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > > Debatable for XP, ME > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Bert Thomas wrote: > Why debatable for XP, ME? They are based on NT as well, aren't they? XP IS a version of NT, not just "based on it" (2000 IS NT5, XP would have been NT6) NT ("New Technology", or "Not Today") was a mix of OS/2 code (written at M-word by Gordon Letwin), and code that Cutler brought with him from DEC. ME ("Millenium Edition") is the next (and LAST) version of W-word 9x (95,98,ME) 95 was DOS 7.00 bundled (integrated) with W-word 4.00 M-word tried to switch their customers over to NT, with [false] statements that Win2K was "the best of 9x AND NT" - it wasn't, it was JUST NT. That didn't work, and they relented and brought out one more version of 9x ("ME"). Then they tried again, and forced their customers to switch to NT in the form of XP. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:32:08 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091474726.23885.96.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> <1091474726.23885.96.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <410FCC18.1010205@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Apple /// (possibly lots worldwide; there don't seem to be many people > this side of the pond who have seen one though) I have one! It came with the ProFile external hard disk, and a box of expansion cards, too. I rather like the two-click cursor keys, where you can press harder on the key to make the auto-repeat go faster. And I like the big holes in the expansion cards to help you to lever them out with a screwdriver. The whole of the machine chassis is one big diecasting and acts as a heatsink. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:37:13 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <410FCD49.5090301@gifford.co.uk> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > 3. Olivetti M-20 I want one of these! > 4. Jupiter Ace And I have one of these. My rarity list: H&H Tiger, a dual-CPU (Z80 and 6809) machine. Whitechapel MG-1, a 32016 Unix machine, made in Whitechapel, London. Arcturus, reputedly London University's first computer. CPU boards in a small rack, all TTL as far as I can tell. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 3 13:20:18 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Blinkenlight lamps In-Reply-To: <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <410FD762.1060506@gifford.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > http://www.panix.com/~allain/P7300001e.jpg (17KBytes) > > The ones on the left seem familliar but I can't remember > where I might have seen that type of spade bottom before... > anybody? The so-called wedge base lamps on the left of the photo are types that were commonly used in telecoms gear, at least here in the UK. They were incandescent back then, but the same shape/size. The lamps on the right of the photo are bi-pin bases, sometimes given a "T" designation like T1. Different "T" numbers for different sizes, I think. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 3 13:29:27 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <200408031706.KAA27683@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16655.55687.865682.282719@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >> From: "Paul Koning" >> Consider GPS satellites, which have either or both built-in. Dwight> Hi I thought I'd mention that GPS satellites are very precise Dwight> but no longer accurate. The world standards like UTC are not Dwight> on the same second as used for GPS. I don't recall how far Dwight> things have changed but for political and other reasons, the Dwight> world time standards have been changing. GPS are still locked Dwight> to being relative to particular data and time. Every one else Dwight> has had a few leap seconds here and there. There is a chart Dwight> someplace on the web that shows how things are. The fact that GPS time doesn't have leap seconds and UTC does, doesn't make GPS time inaccurate. It just means there's a known adjustment between the two, no different from what you do when you allow for timezones. I didn't realize that GPS time omits the leap seconds, but that makes perfect sense -- if you tried to include them, it would just add a completely unnecessary complication to the system. By the way, leap seconds are NOT political. They are made (by the BIH, International Time Bureau) when UCT -- which is basically time reckoned by cesium clocks -- has drifted more than about 600 ms from time as set by the earth's rotation. Since the rotation time of the earth is not constant, that difference is subject to change, somewhat unpredictably. So leap seconds are inserted on an "as needed" basis. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 13:31:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <200408031831.LAA27719@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Honniball" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> 3. Olivetti M-20 > >I want one of these! ---snip--- Hi John These were also labeled as L-1's with slightly different add-on hardware options. Some had color but mine is only black and white. I believe there was a M-30 as well with the Z-8000 but I've never seen one of these. I'm quite enjoying reading about all the unusual items that are in many collections. It seems we all have some interesting items. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 2 23:14:39 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: <20040802211525.4a1cb550.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <200408021551.LAA22586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040802211525.4a1cb550.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200408031837.OAA03876@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Yeah...I just recently got an IBM drive that has absolutely refused >> to work on any narrow SCSI bus I've tried it on. > I had to set the "force single ended" and "disable wide" jumpers on > an IBM disk to get it going on the narrow channel of my AlphaServer > 2100... This drive has a "FORCE SE MODE" jumper, but no "disable wide" jumper. There is a "DIS F/W NEG" jumper which turns out to expand to "disable fast/wide negotiation". It also has three other disable jumpers: DIS TI SY (disable TI sync negotiation) DIS PAR (disable parity) DIS UN A (disable unit attention) I've tried with all four disable jumpers _and_ the FORCE SE MODE jumper, and it _still_ doesn't work with my SS20. :-( I am annoyed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bert at brothom.nl Tue Aug 3 14:34:30 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) References: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> <20040803105801.E38429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <410FE8C6.9FFF4E94@brothom.nl> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > > Quite true for Windows 3.1, 3.11 95, 98. [i.e. NOT an OS] > > > Not true NT3.51, NT4.0, 2000, 2003. [i.e. Validly called an OS] > > > Debatable for XP, ME > > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Bert Thomas wrote: > > Why debatable for XP, ME? They are based on NT as well, aren't they? > > XP IS a version of NT, not just "based on it" (2000 IS NT5, XP would have > been NT6) > NT ("New Technology", or "Not Today") was a mix of OS/2 code (written at > M-word by Gordon Letwin), and code that Cutler brought with him from DEC. > > ME ("Millenium Edition") is the next (and LAST) version of > W-word 9x (95,98,ME) > 95 was DOS 7.00 bundled (integrated) with W-word 4.00 > > M-word tried to switch their customers over to NT, with [false] > statements that Win2K was "the best of 9x AND NT" - it wasn't, > it was JUST NT. That didn't work, and they relented and brought > out one more version of 9x ("ME"). Then they tried again, and > forced their customers to switch to NT in the form of XP. Thanks all, but nobody explained why it is debatable... Based on all you people are saying I'd say ME is _not_, XP _is_. Bert From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 3 13:45:05 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Blinkenlight lamps In-Reply-To: <410FD762.1060506@gifford.co.uk> References: <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040803144424.03017be0@192.168.0.1> At 02:20 PM 8/3/2004, you wrote: >The lamps on the right of the photo are bi-pin bases, sometimes >given a "T" designation like T1. Different "T" numbers for different >sizes, I think. "T" units were 1/8" diameter, e.g. T2 = .25" Ed From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 3 13:50:46 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay References: <20040803151649.5D55D3C81@spies.com> <3.0.6.32.20040803130252.00961ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00db01c4798a$c93ecb80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Joe wrote... > I had one of those that I took to the HP Calculator conference out in > Portland about 5 years ago and gave to someone. But I can't remember who it > was! Well, if anyone has one of those particular ones, I'd love an original. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 3 14:00:06 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: HP diag library on disc Message-ID: <00f901c4798c$179157c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> In the next week, I should be cutting a few bootable HP diagnostic library discs for both 7900 and 7905/6 media. If someone is in dire need to replace their properly licensed diagnostic set & media, contact me off-list. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 3 14:03:20 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <20040803105801.E38429@shell.lmi.net> References: <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> <410F7874.E2F25E18@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040803143817.039ab638@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >XP IS a version of NT, not just "based on it" (2000 IS NT5, XP would have >been NT6) Erm... not quite. 2K is NT5, XP *is* NT5.1, so the "evolution" of XP from 2K is very slight - mainly in more security holes, tighter yet integration of IE, the candy-coated GUI (which you can revert to 2K-like, tho it ain't easy to find all the different animation settings without TweakUI) and the ability to play a lot more games (mostly in the 3D realm). ... Oh, and in more memory usage. I can trim most unnecessary services (for me) in Win2K so about 58-60Meg is used on boot - IIRC, the best I ever got XP down to is around 90-95Meg, with comparable services running. [[ Contrast that with my LinuxFromScratch 4.0 install on my laptop - with comparable services (DHCP enabled, etc.) running, X running, animated background (xfishtank) and 1 terminal window open (on boot, so I didn't fiddle with it) -> 23Meg used. This includes apache, PostgreSQL & ColdFusion 4.5. On boot with no GUI (but all services) -> 15 Meg. My freshly compiled LFS 5.1.1 with no services running: 9.2 Meg. My wife's Shuttle running standard RedHat 9 & Nautilus for the GUI - a touch over 100Meg. It goes to show that enduser linux is sometimes no better now than enduser Winders.]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Aug 3 14:05:08 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Foam pads for keytronics keyboards ? Message-ID: <09A625D9-E580-11D8-8569-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Does anybody have a current source for the foam pads that are used in capacitive Keytronics keyboards ? From vax3900 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 14:03:34 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408031831.LAA27719@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040803190334.89784.qmail@web51807.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "John Honniball" > > > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> 3. Olivetti M-20 > > > >I want one of these! > ---snip--- > > Hi John > These were also labeled as L-1's with slightly > different > add-on hardware options. Some had color but mine is > only > black and white. I believe there was a M-30 as well > with > the Z-8000 but I've never seen one of these. > > I'm quite enjoying reading about all the unusual > items > that are in many collections. It seems we all have > some > interesting items. There should be a virtual museum to display them all. vax, 3900 > Dwight > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 14:07:50 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <410FE8C6.9FFF4E94@brothom.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Bert Thomas wrote: > Thanks all, but nobody explained why it is debatable... > Based on all you people are saying I'd say ME is _not_, XP _is_. I'm not sure what semantics people are bringing into this equation, but ME is simply a crappy "upgrade" of the 9x line, and XP is NT/2000 based. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 3 14:07:16 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Why do MRV11-D's crap out? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040803144424.03017be0@192.168.0.1> References: <410FD762.1060506@gifford.co.uk> <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040803145933.0313bec0@192.168.0.1> I get requests for MRV11-D's regularly, like once a week. Had a bunch and sold them. Still have several in the field and have never seen one fail. Are these things going bad? Can't believe people are building new systems with them. There's nothing much on them, just 2 boot ROM's and a simple QBUS interface. The set of MXV11-B2 boot ROMs I have are 2764A's. Do these die after awhile? Just sitting here scratching my head. Ed From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 3 14:22:07 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> References: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040803212207.42d68d0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 08:10:32 -0700 (PDT) aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: > 8550 and 8560 Thats what I have in my machine room... > It was an evolultion of the systems that started with the 8002 > 8550s have an 11/02 in them and ran an OS called DOS-50, which > I would REALLY like to find. The 8560s are UTEK machines starting > with 11/23s and 8" drives and evolving through 11/73s and 5" drives. I have a 11/23 and 8" drive in mine. Maybe I'll throw the /73 CPU card I have around into it... > I have an 8560 with an 8" drive and would like to find the service > manual for it (I have the svc docs for the 5" version). I have docs for my machine, (OS manuals, development tools, ...) but no service manual. :-( > And dovetailing into Hans' comments, it is VERY difficult to find > the documentation and software for these systems, while the hardware > shows up at hamfests and on eBay frequently. Thats my problem too. The system is complete instaled. But the file system needs a "fsck". Somthing that is on a stand alone tools disk, that I don't have... :-( -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:30:28 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091561428.25452.144.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 17:12, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > Creative Labs 3DBlaster - A 3DO game system on an ISA card. Not many were > > made, and 3DO didn't live long. > > Woah, cool! Do you have more information on this? A quick web search > pulls up nothing of note. A photo perhaps? Talking of cool PC expansion cards, remember when everyone was talking about fractal compression a few years ago? A chap I picked up a bunch of Torch hardware from a while back had a hardware fractal compression board amongst their piles of parts - turned out they'd designed the thing whilst working for a previous employer. It was totally loaded up with memory and i960 CPUs - quite an oddball bit of kit! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:34:01 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <410FCA69.8030806@frixxon.co.uk> References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <410FCA69.8030806@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1091561641.25452.147.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 17:24, Paul Williams wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > I found an RML advert in an old comp magazine at Bletchley of a pair of > > cream 480Z's along with a *white* 380Z at the weekend. I'm assuming it > > was a mock-up as I've never known of a white 380Z before. > > White prototype machines were available for five months before the first > production 380Zs rolled out. The power switch didn't have a key, and the > floppy disk interface card wasn't available. I don't know how many were > made, but at least one is still in private hands. I thought if anyone knew it'd be you :) Curious that the ad showed both 480Zs and 380Zs though if the 380Z was a really early one. I'll try and find the magazine next weekend and grab a scan of the ad I think (and to see what date it was) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:42:43 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <410FCD49.5090301@gifford.co.uk> References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> <410FCD49.5090301@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <1091562162.25452.156.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 17:37, John Honniball wrote: > My rarity list: > > H&H Tiger, a dual-CPU (Z80 and 6809) machine. Hmm, someone was supposed to be getting in touch with me about one of these a while back, then they went quiet. I hope they didn't chuck it! > Whitechapel MG-1, a 32016 Unix machine, made in Whitechapel, London. Any install media? We have a couple at the museum; one's probably viable for restoration using parts from both. Unfortunately the hard drive is definitely shot in one of them, and the other is emitting a lot of bearing noise and so doesn't have much time left. I think they'd been stored in a giant container of dust and then had water poured on them; and don't even ask about the corrosion from the leaking batteries! :) We have docs for them (no service manuals unfortunately) but no install media so they're pretty much boat anchors right now... cheers Jules From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 3 14:49:39 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: RA71 all alone? Message-ID: <200408031949.i73JndO0003454@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, [dec pdp-11 question] anyone know if I can use a RA71 drive all by it's lonesome with an UDA50? I have some RA90's which are working fine but I found a naked RA71 recently and was wondering if I can use it. (probably not without some sort of controller board, but I thought I'd ask) It has a obvious molex power connector and three .1" headers. Two of the headers look like they want to accept the 8 pin plug from my UDA 50 :-) probably wishful thinking. (I've been running the RA90's straight from the UDA50 with the 'red cable'; this has been working fine and doesn't violate the 'odd # of cables' rule) -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:48:35 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <004301c47966$8b7c49e0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <004301c47966$8b7c49e0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <1091562514.25452.163.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 14:31, Rick Bensene wrote: > I worked at Tek during the days of ECS (Engineering Computing Systems). > There were a lot of VERY talented people there. Thanks for that history Rick - nice to hear from someone who worked there. > The XD88's were really powerful machines, designed chiefly for > electrical and mechanical CAD design. I'm not sure what mine was used for - but yep, it's a really slick machine and feels very fast to use. cheers, Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 14:58:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Why do MRV11-D's crap out? Message-ID: <200408031958.MAA27802@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ed Kelleher" > >I get requests for MRV11-D's regularly, like once a week. >Had a bunch and sold them. >Still have several in the field and have never seen one fail. > >Are these things going bad? >Can't believe people are building new systems with them. >There's nothing much on them, just 2 boot ROM's and a simple QBUS interface. >The set of MXV11-B2 boot ROMs I have are 2764A's. >Do these die after awhile? >Just sitting here scratching my head. > >Ed > > Hi Ed Most EPROMs are rated for 10 years. That doesn't mean that every one will last that long. Also, many of these types of systems were all made with EPROMs from the same lot. If there was a long term issue, they'd all fail. Dwight From spedraja at ono.com Tue Aug 3 15:17:20 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay References: <20040803151649.5D55D3C81@spies.com> Message-ID: <001501c47996$e171bf80$0f02a8c0@WorkGroup> Of course, if we can help is some manner let us know. I suppose you have not only more experience than most of us in this matter of postprocessing but even some conseils or recommendations about how work the documents to leave them finally ready to be read. Greetings Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Kossow To: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 5:16 PM Subject: Re: HP 2100 manuals on ebay > I didn't bid on this (was preparing to snipe), but finally talked to the > other bidder and was sure the documentation would be preserved on bitsavers. > > -- > > Copies of those documents have been scanned, and are in the queue to be pdf'ed > I probably should put up a list of what has been done to see if people would > volunteer to postprocess the scans. On a good day, I can finish about 1000 pages > while on average I have been scanning about 4x that per day. I just checked the > /scan directory and it's around 80gb, with only about 25gb postprocessed. > From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Aug 3 15:20:39 2004 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091562162.25452.156.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040803205342.3C922391AE@linux.local> Hi Jules, if i remember correct, then Tony Duell mentioned in one of the last Whitechapel threads, that he has the media ... Bernd BTW: mine is still not running too :-( (but i didn't spent much time on it) On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:42:43 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 17:37, John Honniball wrote: >> My rarity list: >> >> H&H Tiger, a dual-CPU (Z80 and 6809) machine. > >Hmm, someone was supposed to be getting in touch with me about one of >these a while back, then they went quiet. I hope they didn't chuck it! > >> Whitechapel MG-1, a 32016 Unix machine, made in Whitechapel, London. > >Any install media? We have a couple at the museum; one's probably viable >for restoration using parts from both. Unfortunately the hard drive is >definitely shot in one of them, and the other is emitting a lot of >bearing noise and so doesn't have much time left. > >I think they'd been stored in a giant container of dust and then had >water poured on them; and don't even ask about the corrosion from the >leaking batteries! :) > >We have docs for them (no service manuals unfortunately) but no install >media so they're pretty much boat anchors right now... > >cheers > >Jules > > > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Aug 3 15:35:36 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: RA71 all alone? Message-ID: <0408032035.AA07356@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Brad Parker wrote: > anyone know if I can use a RA71 drive all by it's lonesome with an UDA50? > > I have some RA90's which are working fine but I found a naked RA71 > recently and was wondering if I can use it. (probably not without some > sort of controller board, but I thought I'd ask) RA71 is an SDI drive just like RA90 and every other RAxx drive. They all connect directly to an SDI controller (UDA50, KDA50, KDB50, KDM70, HSC, etc). You just need the right SDI cables. I have never seen a UDA50 (all my life so far has been Q-bus MicroVAXen, so all my RA drives are on KDA50s), so I don't know what cable it will need. > It has a obvious molex power connector and three .1" headers. Two of > the headers look like they want to accept the 8 pin plug from my UDA 50 > :-) Those are SDI connectors for port A and port B. The larger header is for the OCP (operator control panel). Having an OCP is nice, but one can live without it (I have none myself). Without an OCP the drive gets its unit number from 3 switches on the side. This limits the unit number to 0-7, while the MSCP spec allows much higher unit numbers. I believe you can get the full MSCP spec range of unit numbers with the OCP. MS From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 3 15:41:05 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <200408031714.KAA27690@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > OK, I do have one that is going to be an unusual one > that is significant in its insignificance. This is not what I mean by significant. I am looking for machines that did something historically important. Or even maybe not so historically important. Provenance - it is important. So far the silence has been a bad sign... > It is a SDK development machine for Intel's 2920 ( not to > be confused with AMD's 2920 of the 2900 family of parts ). > This was Intel's only attempt at the DSP market. It > is only unique in that it is rare enough that few even > know it existed. It was a time when Intel chose it's > direction to be a mostly X86 processor company and began > to leave the side markets alone ( for good or bad ). Intel is known for many dead ends and bad timing. They really are a pretty innovative company - it is a shame they have this huge stain on their history called x86. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 3 15:54:52 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: Message-ID: <00b501c4799c$1fc24160$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: Re: rarest computers > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > Creative Labs 3DBlaster - A 3DO game system on an ISA card. Not many were > > made, and 3DO didn't live long. > > Woah, cool! Do you have more information on this? A quick web search > pulls up nothing of note. A photo perhaps? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://www.heimcomputer.de/english/konsolen/3doblast.html From vax3900 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 16:18:26 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040803211826.69520.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > OK, I do have one that is going to be an unusual > one > > that is significant in its insignificance. > > This is not what I mean by significant. I am looking > for machines that did > something historically important. Or even maybe not > so historically > important. Provenance - it is important. > > So far the silence has been a bad sign... > > > It is a SDK development machine for Intel's 2920 ( > not to > > be confused with AMD's 2920 of the 2900 family of > parts ). > > This was Intel's only attempt at the DSP market. > It > > is only unique in that it is rare enough that few > even > > know it existed. It was a time when Intel chose > it's > > direction to be a mostly X86 processor company and > began > > to leave the side markets alone ( for good or bad > ). > > Intel is known for many dead ends and bad timing. > They really are a pretty > innovative company - it is a shame they have this > huge stain on > their history called x86. In my eyes X86 is not bad at all. Every divert from X86 Intel made was a failure. I432, I860, I960, Itanium, all failed. Maybe 8051 is an exception. Also CISC won the battle with RISC finally. It might be better for DEC to develop faster VAX than to develop Alpha. vax, 3900 > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 16:35:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <200408032135.OAA27863@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" > >> OK, I do have one that is going to be an unusual one >> that is significant in its insignificance. > >This is not what I mean by significant. I am looking for machines that did >something historically important. Or even maybe not so historically >important. Provenance - it is important. > >So far the silence has been a bad sign... > Hi Sure, I know what you mean. It is just hard to pick such items out from the flow. Things like the Altair 8800 or an original IBM PC come to mind. But where does one draw the line for things like laptops. It isn't just a matter of being first, it is a matter of actually starting a particular trend. Some of these items may actually be rare while others may be common as dirt. TRS-80's surely had a significant effect. The various BBC computers in the UK had influence there as well. I'm sure there are a number of others to mention. The hard part is to pick one point in the flow of things and state that this was truly a turning point and not just some advertising hype. Influencing things and actually causing wide spread use are different as well. Of the rarer machines that I have, I'd have to say that only my Poly88 started a trend. It was the first of the "reset only" front panels where there was no longer all the lights and switches, for what was then called PC's. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 16:44:53 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <200408032144.OAA27874@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "SHAUN RIPLEY" > ---snip--- >In my eyes X86 is not bad at all. Every divert from >X86 Intel made was a failure. I432, I860, I960, >Itanium, all failed. Maybe 8051 is an exception. Also Hi I'd not say that either the 432 or 8051 were spawned from the X86. Also, even though Intel doesn't deal with it anymore, the 186's are still quite popular for embedded. Most CISC processors of today run with a RISC core. CISC has the advantage of more efficient use of bulk memory bandwidth while RISC can be more easily handled for things like pipelining and multiple execution engines. Dwight >CISC won the battle with RISC finally. It might be >better for DEC to develop faster VAX than to develop >Alpha. > >vax, 3900 > >> >> William Donzelli >> aw288@osfn.org >> >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 3 16:53:37 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <20040803211826.69520.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16656.2401.552712.809851@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "SHAUN" == SHAUN RIPLEY writes: SHAUN> .... Also CISC won the battle SHAUN> with RISC finally. Is that so? I would say that RISC won. Pretty much everything is RISC, except where backward compatibility forces the continued support of some horribly crufty CISC instruction set (x86) or some not quite so horrible CISC instruction set (M68k). paul From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 16:52:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: What is an Operating System (was Electronics Barn closing) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040803143817.039ab638@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > freshly compiled LFS 5.1.1 with no services running: 9.2 Meg. My wife's > Shuttle running standard RedHat 9 & Nautilus for the GUI - a touch over > 100Meg. It goes to show that enduser linux is sometimes no better now than > enduser Winders.]] That may well be the influence of all the 20-something aged programmers who never had to squeeze a program into 4K of memory (or less). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 3 17:03:13 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <200408032135.OAA27863@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Sure, I know what you mean. I do not think you understand, perhaps I should clarify. > It is just hard > to pick such items out from the flow. Things > like the Altair 8800 or an original IBM PC > come to mind. Provenance applies to *individual* artifacts (instances, if you will). It does not apply to kinds of artifacts (classes, to keep the OOP thing going). Nearly all Altair 8800s sat in some geeks' basements, playing tictactoe or some other menial task. Maybe a few did get used for developing some bit of well known software. Likewise, most 5150s were used in the offices of well known (and more now-forgotten) corporations. A few, however, could have been used to write a great American novel or screenplay. Look at your machines as individuals. Where did you get each one? What were they used for? Do you have evidence to back up the claims? You will see that most machines - nearly all - did pretty unimportant jobs in their lifes. I look at mine - one was used for managing parts for GM in Canada. Another did payroll at a steel and bridge company. Another was used in a high school. A few I simply do not know. Anyway, not very exciting. What I am looking for are instances of machines with a exciting history. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 3 17:32:53 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040803223253.GA9811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 11:53:21AM -0400, chris wrote: > >> Magnevox Odyssey 1 - Not really a computer (It was analog!), but farily > >> uncommon, and predecessor to the really-a-computer Odyssey 2. > > I have one of these, but I'm missing most of the overlays. Also the rifle > for some of the games is long since trashed. Some day I'll dig the thing > out and see if the system itself still works. We had one of those when I was a kid that died about the time I was getting into Commodore hardware (c. 1980). I chopped up one of the controller cables and turned it into a User Port -> Centronics Printer cable, and turned one of the game carts into a VIC-20 cartridge port extender (44 pin, 0.154" spacing edge connector). Sounds terrible now, of course, but ~25 years ago, it was just a pile of junk. I'm sure with what I know now I could have fixed it. The good news is that a few years after that one died, my high-school girlfriend's Dad was going to throw out their Odyssey 1 while I was over visiting, and I managed to score it from him. My only complaint with it is that when I was growing up, we never had the right sized television for either set of overlays. We always had whatever size came in between. When other, more dedicated machines came out in the late 1970s, we put the thing on the shelf and played the ones that generated their own B&W background. The one we played the most and the one that I'd like to find again was the Coleco Combat console - two players, tank controllers, and 3 or 4 built-in games. I fixed that one multiple times (mechanical switch and controller issues) before it died after years of abuse in a house with four boys. All of those TV-based games fell by the wayside at my house when hand-helds hit the scene... we had boxes of them... I was away from home when my father cleaned house. :-( -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Aug-2004 22:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.5 F (-57.5 C) Windchill -118.5 F (-83.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 20.3 kts Grid 031 Barometer 666.3 mb (11147. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 17:38:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > OK, I do have one that is going to be an unusual one > > that is significant in its insignificance. > > This is not what I mean by significant. I am looking for machines that did > something historically important. Or even maybe not so historically > important. Provenance - it is important. Anything that comes my way like that I usually channel over the the Computer History Museum. This would include several important items so far. > Intel is known for many dead ends and bad timing. They really are a pretty > innovative company - it is a shame they have this huge stain on > their history called x86. I think they get too much credit in some cases. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:55:44 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <20040803205342.3C922391AE@linux.local> References: <20040803205342.3C922391AE@linux.local> Message-ID: <1091573743.25452.237.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 20:20, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi Jules, > if i remember correct, then Tony Duell mentioned in one of the last Whitechapel threads, > that he has the media ... ooh, does he now? :-) I believe he's got the schematics somewhere - didn't realise he has the media too. cheers! Jules From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Aug 3 18:21:09 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. References: <20040803015601.37B3B3CE0@spies.com> Message-ID: <41101DE5.1040401@tiac.net> >>I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their >>rarest computers in their collections. >> Imlac PDS-1 S/N 2, only 'running' PDS-1A I'm aware of. HP 2115A, one of only 2 I know of. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 3 18:18:31 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <20040803163830.20267.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200408031102.i73B18bh089987@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040803163830.20267.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040803231831.GC9811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 09:38:30AM -0700, Loboyko Steve wrote: > This is not really a problem with surface mount. I > thought this would be impossible too - then I built, > as my first SMT project, a Nixie tube watch - with > "over 45" eyeballs that never worked perfectly. > > http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/nixwatch.htm I've been wanting to make one of those for a while... if I found the tubes at a reasonable price, I'd probably do it. OTOH, since I've made several "binary" clocks (BCD, really), I've always wanted to design a "binary" wristwatch. I got a start on laying out the LEDs with EagleCAD, but then someone stole my laptop. :-( > I am concerned that all the TTL in the surplus market > now is all that there is-I can't beleive that anyone > is making any more. Wire-wrap sockets and quality > punched boards are getting very expensive. Fortunately, I have a quantity of sockets... what I usually have to go out and buy/find is the perfboard. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Aug-2004 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.5 F (-57.6 C) Windchill -118.4 F (-83.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 20 kts Grid 033 Barometer 666.4 mb (11143. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Aug 3 18:29:12 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: <13d101c478ed$67c59200$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040803182912.070e898b.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 22:30:30 -0400 "David V. Corbin" wrote: > >>> Of course, it is also quite possible that the software just > >>> asked the user what date/time to put on the printout :-). > >>> > > I was thinking the same thing. There were some programs I worked on > during the early seventies where the computer did not have a clue > about the date or time. The input "deck" contained this information > which was basically just echoed on to the printouts. I remember > running batch jobs [large decks] where the only cards that would get > changed were a few parameters and the leading "identity" card.... > > IBM PC-DOS 1.0, for those who have never booted it, presents the user with a Time and Date prompt that can not be bypassed by simply hitting carriage return. The user can enter fictitious time and date if so desired, but not null. This was changed with later versions of PC-DOS and the parallel MS-DOS versions. You could simply hit return and default time/date values were assumed. I'm not sure if PC-DOS 1.0 supported autoexec.bat, which bypasses the Time/Date prompt on later versions (i.e. the Time/Date prompts are invisibly bypassed and a call to a small program that accessed the 'clock' hardware was not included (did anybody else back then feel like their machine was stunted if there wasn't a clock card plugged into an ISA slot on the machine?)) My point in bringing this up is to note that even though it didn't have a real-timekeeping function built in, an original IBM PC running PC-DOS 1.0 did have an inherent 'timekeeping' fuction which was often somewhat accurate. It didn't cost any more or less to enter the real time/date than a fictitious one, since some input with the right format was forced on system bootup. Granted, not many people at all ran IBM PCs on DOS 1.0, which was crippled in many other ways, and wasn't really that viable an 'OS' to run for several further releases. But back 'with the thread' being discussed, when I was in a programming class in college where we had to submit our FORTRAN decks to a batch terminal, there was definitely a high quality time and datestamp placed on the resulting printouts. This was on CDC Cyber hardware in the late 70's. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:27:02 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 2, 4 02:52:44 pm Message-ID: > Sharp plotting calculator - Forgot the model number, it's in the archives > somewhere. A battery operated desktop calculator with 4-color pen plotter! > This is the only calculator I've seen with a built-in plotter. Not built-in, but the Sharp PC1500 pocket computer could take an add-on battery-opperated plotter. The plotter was a craddle that the computer slotted into, and it was _just_ possible to use it handheld. This used the well-known Alps 4-pen mechanism (the narrow version of the one used in the Radio Shack CGP115, Commodore 1520, etc). And of course HP sold a full-size mains-operated plotter (7470 opt 003) for the HP41 calculator (it worked with other HPIL controllers too, but there's a ROM module for the HP41 to drive it). It's not common (yes, I do have both the plotter and the ROM). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:31:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <5A1CCBB4-E50A-11D8-99FF-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 2, 4 10:02:43 pm Message-ID: > > > Another problem with most modern stuff is that it is > surface mount tiny "you can't work on it without > special tools" not meant for repair, only for replacement. The only problem with working on surface mount stuff is that people think it's hard. It's not. As for special tools, yes, a hot-air soldering tool is useful (but one of those butane-powered irons with the hot air tip is OK for repairs). But I just used a normal soldering iron with the finest bit made, and take a little care. I've done PQFPs, SOICs, transistors, passives, etc with no problem at all. Now BGAs are a problem (I wonder what the cheapest setup for doing those is -- I've seen a protoryping rig, but it's about \pounds 5000). But components where you can get to each individual connection are no trouble at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:33:18 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 4 11:06:49 pm Message-ID: > > The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw and file. > > Well done they are not! > > Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard to > homebrew. I beleive they're both genuine Exidy ones, although the ROMs in one were replaced by EPROMs (I have the mask-programmed ROMs somewhere too). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:48:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 3, 4 11:25:23 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 22:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Acorn System 5 (maybe 20 or so left worldwide?) > > > > I have one. > > Yes, but you have one of everything :-) No I don't... I fact let's start a thread of what items people feel are missing from their collections, Here's mine... (No, I am not asking for any of these...) HP9100A (Yes, OK, I have a pair of -Bs, but I'd like to pull the older version apart too) HP9820 (just for completeness, I have the 9810 and 9830) PDP10 (any model) PDP12 (I have the full set of manuals) PDP11/74 (Yes, I know, not a chance of ever finding one) Apple Lisa (I'd like to see how much worse it was than the classic PERQ) And some micros that are supposed to be quite common but I've not bothered with. Acorn Electron Sinclair ZX80 Apple /// Apple //c Dragon 64 (I have the CoCo family) TRS80 Model 2/12/16 And a lot more. > > Actually, IME ex-employees from the various hardware companies often > seem to have stuff hidden away in storage from their days with the That's how I got the P851 and P854. The owner was actually quite supprised that anyone wanted them (but was clueful enough to realise I'd also want the boot disks, user and service manuals, etc, and had them all ready for me when I went to pick up the machines) > > > Torch Quad X (I don't know of any others left) > > > > I have one of those as well, missing a few trivial bits like the PSU > > output cable. I do haev the mainboard, PSU, drives, etc. > > Any install media? That's one thing I don't have, so the machine's Not that I am aware of. I think I do have a bootable hard disk, though. > > > Torch Triple X workstation (maybe 30 of those around?) > > > > I have a few, including one with a Quinring (5 slot VME expansion slice) > > on top. > > The quinring's aren't common. The Torch Primagraphics workstation has I have at least one, and a couple of slimrings (adds one VME slot). > one, plus I think I have one spare which isn't attached to a machine. If > you ever need keyboards or mice, shout - I have around 15 of the > critters :-) I think i have more machines than keyboards, but it's not like I need to set them all up at once. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:51:18 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:50 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 3, 4 11:10:28 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 03:13, William Donzelli wrote: > > 3) How many people have *significant* machines? One that made a dent in > > history, even if it was something as mundane as an Apple II or a > > PDP-11/34? > > Do you mean significant as in it might be a really common machine, but > that particular one was used for something interesting / significant / > important? How about one that's both rare (as in I know of no others that have survived) _and_ was used for something significant. Alas it's not really a computer. It's the I2S (International Imaging Systems) Model 70 Image Processors that were used for the BBC weather forcast satellite images. Alas they're currnetly in bits, but I have all the boards and cardcages, and the schematics/user manuals. Even have the Unibus and DR11-W-compatible interfaces for them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:54:59 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <410F7F9A.7090905@citem.org> from "Hans B PUFAL" at Aug 3, 4 02:05:46 pm Message-ID: > AAAaaarrrggghhh... As I am always pounding into anyone that will listen, > hardware with no documentation is practically useless. Documentation I fully appreciate the value of documentation -- the several _thousand_ schematics/service manuals/etc that I have here support that, and if I am offered documentation that is of little interest to me (say application progrma user manuals), I pass it on to people who will preserve it, or if applicable donate it to the HPCC library (I happen to be the librarian at the momemnt...). However, it is _possible_ to produce documentation from the hardware. You can reverse-engineer most classic computers. It's a long job (can take _months_), but I have done it. Normally I do this for machines where proper service information was never available. It's easier to preserve the manuals -- if they exist -- though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 18:01:37 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 3, 4 06:19:40 pm Message-ID: > > My rare machines : > > A Philips P857 16 bit mini. Has a nice blinkenlights panel. Nice. Top of the 852/856/857 liue, and that's one series I've not found an example of yet. I have the 850, 851, 854, and what I believe to be a CPU board from an 853 (It's got a single-chip P800-series processor on it, I have docs, including schematics, for a single-board computer using the same CPU with memory on the same PCB). > > The ETH Lilith Modula2 workstation. Very nice... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 18:09:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <410FCD49.5090301@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Aug 3, 4 06:37:13 pm Message-ID: > H&H Tiger, a dual-CPU (Z80 and 6809) machine. You missed out the NEC 7220 graphics chip which is halfway to being a processor IMHO. So it's a 2.5 processor machine. > > Whitechapel MG-1, a 32016 Unix machine, made in Whitechapel, London. I have one, still working... I also have, but have done nothing with it yet, a Whitechapel Hitec 20 and a lot of spare boards (not all from the same source). The mainboard is PC/AT formfactor (in fact it's in a PC tower case), and has 3 ISA slots. The other 5 connectors are DIN41612s, for the CPU board (MIPS R2000 CPU + FPU + MMU chips), RAM and video cards. The mainboard contains things like serial ports (although there are 2 more on the CPU board), SCSI, ST506 and floppy controllers, keyboard controller (an 8042, presumably PC/AT like), and so on. Does anyone have pinouts (or other hardware info) for the R2000 chips (I can get the exact numbers if anyone thinks they can help). All I can seem to find is programming manuals. > > Arcturus, reputedly London University's first computer. CPU boards > in a small rack, all TTL as far as I can tell. I am supreised that London University didn't have any sort of computer before the late 1960s (that's when TTL came out IIRC). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 18:13:29 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091562162.25452.156.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 3, 4 07:42:43 pm Message-ID: > > Whitechapel MG-1, a 32016 Unix machine, made in Whitechapel, London. > > Any install media? We have a couple at the museum; one's probably viable I do, but, wait for this, on 3.5" floppies. The standard MG1 floppy drive is an 80 cylinder 5.25" unit, and can be replaced by a '720K' 3.5" unit. That's what the previous owner did to my machine. AFAIK if you image-copied the 3.5" disks I have (and it's quite a number of them) back to 80 cylinder 5.25" disks, then you'd have the standard installation kit. Or you could pop a 3.5" drive in your machine -- If I rememebr the schemaitcs correclty, though, you can only have one floppy drive in there at a time. > We have docs for them (no service manuals unfortunately) but no install I have a manual of schematics, service notes, etc. Not sure it would stand photocopying though, but at least the diagrams do exist. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 18:22:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091573743.25452.237.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 3, 4 10:55:44 pm Message-ID: > > if i remember correct, then Tony Duell mentioned in one of the last Whitechapel threads, > > that he has the media ... > > ooh, does he now? :-) I believe he's got the schematics somewhere - Yes, I do, and I can see both from where I am sitting... (I may not be a programmer, or particularly interested in software, but I do realise the importance of installation kits (and for that matter _all_ media -- if I am not interested in it, I pass it on to someone who is). -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 3 18:41:23 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: RA71 all alone? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:35:36 GMT." <0408032035.AA07356@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200408032341.i73NfNNI006143@mwave.heeltoe.com> Michael Sokolov wrote: > >> It has a obvious molex power connector and three .1" headers. Two of >> the headers look like they want to accept the 8 pin plug from my UDA 50 > >Those are SDI connectors for port A and port B. The larger header is >for the OCP (operator control panel). Having an OCP is nice, but one can >live without it (I have none myself). Without an OCP the drive gets its >unit number from 3 switches on the side. This limits the unit number to >0-7, while the MSCP spec allows much higher unit numbers. I believe you >can get the full MSCP spec range of unit numbers with the OCP. Excellent, thanks. I'll try it out tomorrow. (And thanks for Quasijarus 4.3bsd! my vax 730 is up with it as of today on an ra90...) -brad From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 3 18:49:03 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CDs for RSX-11 and RT-11 (Originally Produced by Tim Shoppa) Message-ID: <4110246F.1EADE49F@compsys.to> Hi John, I attempted to send the following e-mail, but it keeps getting rejected at your e-mail address. So I am also sending it to the classiccmp address in case anyone is able to forward it to you. If anyone at classiccmp knows what the problem is, then please help! If John sends me his new (or old) e-mail address or can verify the snail mail address, that would be what I need!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ============================================ Hi John, At this point, after many delays - most of which are my fault - I am about to mail the CDs. They are actually ready to be taken to the Post Office to be mailed. I want to check on your address first, so please respond! John W. McCance aaaaa (deleted in case it is private) aaaaa aaaaa Thank you for being so patient!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 3 18:53:26 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: RA71 all alone? In-Reply-To: <0408032035.AA07356@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408032035.AA07356@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040803235326.GF9811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 08:35:36PM +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > The larger header is for the OCP (operator control panel). Having an > OCP is nice, but one can live without it (I have none myself). Without > an OCP the drive gets its unit number from 3 switches on the side. This > limits the unit number to 0-7, while the MSCP spec allows much higher > unit numbers. I believe you can get the full MSCP spec range of unit > numbers with the OCP. Handy to know. I have a couple of RA70s in a box at home that I was planning on eventually throwing into a BA123 - Given that I picked up second box last year in Cambridge, OH, I might just have to yank the uVAX-II and throw in a KDJ11 board and fire up 2.11BSD. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Aug-2004 23:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70 F (-56.7 C) Windchill -114.3 F (-81.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.9 kts Grid 036 Barometer 666.2 mb (11151. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 3 19:02:42 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CDs for RSX-11 and RT-11 (Originally Produced by Tim Shoppa) Message-ID: <411027A2.FAD19CF@compsys.to> Hi John, I attempted to send the following e-mail, but it keeps getting rejected at your e-mail address. So I am also sending it to the classiccmp address in case anyone is able to forward it to you. If anyone at classiccmp knows what the problem is, then please help! If John sends me his new (or old) e-mail address or can verify the snail mail address, that would be what I need!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ============================================ Hi John, At this point, after many delays - most of which are my fault - I am about to mail the CDs. They are actually ready to be taken to the Post Office to be mailed. I want to check on your address first, so please respond! John W. McCance aaaaa (deleted in case it is private) aaaaa aaaaa Thank you for being so patient!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 3 19:04:10 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CDs for RSX-11 and RT-11 (Originally Produced by Tim Shoppa) Message-ID: <411027FA.21F86944@compsys.to> Hi John, I attempted to send the following e-mail, but it keeps getting rejected at your e-mail address. So I am also sending it to the classiccmp address in case anyone is able to forward it to you. If anyone at classiccmp knows what the problem is, then please help! If John sends me his new (or old) e-mail address or can verify the snail mail address, that would be what I need!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ============================================ Hi John, At this point, after many delays - most of which are my fault - I am about to mail the CDs. They are actually ready to be taken to the Post Office to be mailed. I want to check on your address first, so please respond! John W. McCance aaaaa (deleted in case it is private) aaaaa aaaaa Thank you for being so patient!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 19:06:49 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: RA71 all alone? In-Reply-To: <200408031949.i73JndO0003454@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <001101c479b6$f040bdc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > anyone know if I can use a RA71 drive all by it's lonesome > with an UDA50? I think Michael Sokolov has covered this one for you. I doubt that anyone ever actually *tested* an RA7x on a UDA50, but it's *supposed* to work! Even in a PDP-11 :-) > probably wishful thinking. Evey now and then you st8umble across something in life that just works - and this looks like it may well be it! > (I've been running the RA90's straight from the UDA50 with > the 'red cable'; > this has been working fine and doesn't violate the 'odd # of > cables' rule) It certainly works and is AFAIK a perfectly supported configuration. If you use an RA7x mounted in a BA200 series chassis (say in a MicroVAX III class machine) then the RA7x would be fed a cable directly from the KDA50. Admittedly if you used an RA8x or RA9x you'd have to go cab-to-cab and hence 3 cables to be supported, but that's just a simple disk-doesn't -fit-in-cab issue. Towards the end of the VAX 6000's life, there was a "kit" that allowed you to mount RA9x and/or RA7x drives in the huge amount of space available in the bottom of the VAX 6000 cab. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 19:31:52 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301c479ba$702cf910$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > The couple I have look more like they were done with a > hacksaw and file. > Well done they are not! So either it was the young lad's first day on the job or you scored a few he made late on a Friday afternoon :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Aug 3 20:06:31 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Another problem with most modern stuff is that it is > > surface mount tiny "you can't work on it without > > special tools" not meant for repair, only for replacement. > > The only problem with working on surface mount stuff is that people think > it's hard. It's not. > > As for special tools, yes, a hot-air soldering tool is useful (but one of > those butane-powered irons with the hot air tip is OK for repairs). But I > just used a normal soldering iron with the finest bit made, and take a > little care. I've done PQFPs, SOICs, transistors, passives, etc with no > problem at all. > > Now BGAs are a problem (I wonder what the cheapest setup for doing those > is -- I've seen a protoryping rig, but it's about \pounds 5000). But > components where you can get to each individual connection are no trouble > at all. BGAs are probably easier than QFPs. All you need is a hot air gun and a lot of flux... The only problem is that if you mess up, you lose the chip (assuming you dont have a re-baller or send the chip out to be re-balled), and have to remove it and start over. I've done 516,388,and 256 ball standard (.050" pitch) and 48 ball chip scale (.0315" pitch) parts with very good success rate with nothing more than a $59.00 hot air gun (and some practice) > > -tony > Peter Wallace From finnegpt at purdue.edu Tue Aug 3 20:28:40 2004 From: finnegpt at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408032028.40998.finnegpt@purdue.edu> I've got a few "rare" machines, but they mostly seem to come out of some sort of "scientific instrumentation". A vector-based computer that processed NMR data - an Aspect 3000, some machines made by Nicolet and others, etc. Some of my favorite "rarer" machines are my General Automation SPC-16/40 and /45 (which are neither complete nor functional right now ): It was a machine targeted where the Data General Nova was targeted (a general purpose 16bit machine in the early 70s). Encore Multimax - a massively SMP UNIX box with NS32332s (or 32232's?) that went up to 40 processors and 128MB of memory in the late 80s, and ran a Mach-based Unix. I've not yet gotten that up and running, but I've got install tapes and documentation for it that the SPC-16s don't. Another uncommon machine (in model, not in processor architecture) is my MicroVAX 3520. I'd love to pick up more processor cards for it at some point and see how many I can get it to happily run with. My favorite machines, though definitely not all that rare are my VAX-11/750 (first ...and only for now... UNIBUS machine) and my IBM S/390 Gen3 9672-RC4 (which is only 1.5 years away from being "classic" by the 10 year rule). As soon as I get more unpacked into my new home, I'll have some time to set up my 11/750 and the Multimax to try and play with them. This reminds me I need to get back to updating my website sometime. Pat -- The Computer Refuge -- http://computer-refuge.org Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 3 20:33:34 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 11:48:42PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I fact let's start a thread of what items people feel are missing from > their collections, Here's mine... (No, I am not asking for any of these...) > PDP10 (any model) Me, too. I missed a KL10 taken home by an ex-CompuServant by six months. (it was in his garage, then he pitched it). I was hoping to pick up a discarded SC-25 or SC-30 when those were obsoleted, but I heard through the grapevine that those were collected by Systems Concepts. So... I have to content myself with running klh10 in the meantime (901 hours of uptime since I last rebooted to get the NI20 going). > PDP12 (I have the full set of manuals) Boy, that'd be nice, too... or maybe a LINC-8 > Apple Lisa (I'd like to see how much worse it was than the classic PERQ) I wouldn't mind one of those, either. I remember using them before the Mac came out (at the local University). I couldn't compare them to a PERQ, but I could compare them to my experiences with the original Macintosh in 1984. In the 12-bit world, I'm still missing a PDP-8/m, a PDP-8/f, and a WT-78. I have an -8/e, so the -8/f is really optional, but since the -8/m is a little different (smaller box, LED front panel...) that'd be a nice one to have, too. I really have enough classic CPUs to keep me busy for the rest of my life. What I'm always on the lookout for is *peripherals* for those CPUs, especially disks for pre-1985 DEC machines. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 01:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.5 F (-57.0 C) Windchill -115.3 F (-81.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18 kts Grid 034 Barometer 666 mb (11160 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 3 20:40:40 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408032028.40998.finnegpt@purdue.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Some of my favorite "rarer" machines are my General Automation SPC-16/40 > and /45 (which are neither complete nor functional right now ): It was > a machine targeted where the Data General Nova was targeted (a general > purpose 16bit machine in the early 70s). Nice. You're the only one I know of that has these. I have some Naked Mini's and another model that escapes me currently. > Encore Multimax - a massively SMP UNIX box with NS32332s (or 32232's?) > that went up to 40 processors and 128MB of memory in the late 80s, and > ran a Mach-based Unix. I've not yet gotten that up and running, but > I've got install tapes and documentation for it that the SPC-16s don't. Very nice! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 3 20:43:29 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040804014329.GA2409@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 10:19:21AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >> Apple IIc Plus - Only made for a year or so. Again, not ultra-rare, but not > > >> often seen around. I found a IIc+ for $15 at a Hamfest a few years back, before I ever found a IIc. For the money, I got the CPU, PSU, mono Apple monitor w/stand, 2 Imagewriters, external 5.25" disk and a box of docs. I wasn't complaining. > And a faster processor (3.3Mhz). > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=36&st=1 4MHz, isn't it? (selectable to 1MHz or 4MHz, for software compatibility) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.7 F (-57.1 C) Windchill -113.9 F (-81.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.5 kts Grid 041 Barometer 666 mb (11160 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 3 20:54:07 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040804015407.GC2409@bos7.spole.gov> Oh... Forgot one unusual machine I haven't had the time to fully explore: a TI-980. TTL CPU, serial interface, and switches + blinkylights. Not sure what I could _do_ with it (dunno what it needs in the way of peripherals, etc.) I think it's more of a process control computer than a general purpose / BASIC / FOCAL machine. With the severe lack of docs, I haven't even powered it on yet. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.7 F (-57.1 C) Windchill -111.8 F (-79.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 039 Barometer 666.1 mb (11156 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rcini at optonline.net Tue Aug 3 21:13:29 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Teac floppy replacement Message-ID: <000c01c479c8$a2f82cd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello, all: I'm trying to get my "new" Micromint SB180 to work with the floppy drives that came with it. I've been given two sets of disks, both of which were made on a known-working system but which produce read errors on mine. The drives pass the internal disgnostics that are in the SB180 ROM, but I want to eliminate the drive from the problem by swapping another in. It appears to use standard 5.25" 1/2-height PC drives except that the "old" drive has a head-load solenoid while the new one doesn't. The model number of the "old" drive is FD55F-03-U and the model number of the "new" drive is FD55BV-36-U. There are differences in the jumper designations between the models so I can't readily map the settings. Can anyone help with this? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 21:25:18 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Teac floppy replacement In-Reply-To: <000c01c479c8$a2f82cd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000c01c479c8$a2f82cd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <20040803192142.Y47054@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > The model number of the "old" drive is FD55F-03-U and the model number of > the "new" drive is FD55BV-36-U. There are differences in the jumper > designations between the models so I can't readily map the settings. If I remember correctly, the 55B (Teac) is a "360K" 48TPI drive; the 55F is a "720K" 96TPI drive. A 55F could read disks written on a 55B, with some trivial additional software (to step TWICE between tracks), but a 55B can not read disks created on a 55F (unless it was running extra code to double step) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 3 21:30:33 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <200408040230.TAA28014@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" ---snip--- > >You will see that most machines - nearly all - did pretty unimportant jobs >in their lifes. I look at mine - one was used for managing parts for GM in >Canada. Another did payroll at a steel and bridge company. Another was >used in a high school. A few I simply do not know. Anyway, not very >exciting. What I am looking for are instances of machines with a exciting >history. > OK, now I see what you are getting at. History of these machines is really hard to get. For the most part, it is even harder to prove. The most interesting one from that standpoint was the Olivetti M20. I got it from the xwife of a fellow that worked for Olivetti here in Sunnyvale, developing applications. When he gave it to her, all she wanted it for was the word processor. I have a Kim that was purchased by a fellow that was in the early days but never actually did anything with it. Sales slip included. Most anything else I've gotten lacks history. I wish I'd gotten more with items but it is tough enough to just round up documents and programs for these machines. The only machine that I know the complete history is my second computer ( a H89 ). I built it and learned from it. I've designed and built some of my own I/O boards for it. I have nothing with any Earth shaking history( that I know of ). I know such machines are out there. They just never come my way. I'm just not in the right place at the right time. I keep looking, though. I guess the biggest problem is that few individual machines were actually involved in history making events. Many may have been involved in bits and pieces. The only famous machine I can think of is the IMSAI that was used in "War Games". It is not all that important a history event but it is the only one I know about. There are reproduction items but no other originals that I'd consider related to historic evens or times. You are really asking for the rarest of items. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 3 18:18:33 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091575112.25452.254.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 22:03, William Donzelli wrote: > Look at your machines as individuals. Where did you get each one? The bad thing is, for a lot of my stuff I don't remember as it was too long ago. These days I keep hold of relevant emails, and tend to note down who I got what from and when. Back in the day I never thought I might one day want to know who I got item x from, and storage space was too precious to justify keeping email archives. (unfortunately I'm not one of those people who compulsively prints out important electronic data :) > You will see that most machines - nearly all - did pretty unimportant jobs > in their lifes. All of mine I think :-) My NCR Tower was a development machine for XVT Software and so has some interesting bits and pieces on it, but in the big scheme of things that's about as good as it gets :-) For a lot of the systems I just don't know what they may have been used for - and of course the older the system the less likely it is to have a hard disk inside, and the more likely it is that any floppies which may have once been used with it have become separated, reformatted, or thrown out by previous owner(s). So unless the person who passed it on to me was the original owner and told me any stories about it, there's just no way of knowing. cheers, J. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 22:05:51 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: ... > Anything that comes my way like that I usually channel over the the > Computer History Museum. This would include several important items so > far. I'm not so keen on the CHM. I don't know if I aired this already or not, but I think not. When I left the bay area a couple months ago, I tried to give my working wang 2200 with terminal, manuals, working floppy disk system, fixed/removable hard disk system, and disks. It took a LOT of work (weeks of one-sided prodding) on my part to have them consider it. "The curator will contact you in a few days..." (a week passes), another email, "The curator will contact you in a few days...", more time passes, another email, "Could you describe it again?", etc. After more than a month of delay, I received and email with the tenor of a form letter along these lines: Dear Jim, thank you for considering the CHM. Unfortunately at this time we don't have an interest in obtaining your keypunch machine. Here are the names of some other museums that may be interested ... It went to the digibarn instead. That they didn't want my computer isn't what ruffled me -- it was their seeming indifference to what I thought was a generous offer. At any rate, I'm sure the computer ended up with someone (Bruce) who appreciates it more than the CHM. From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Aug 3 22:15:04 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay References: <007e01c4795a$12a160c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <001401c479d1$3cdba590$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> wish I had seen them!\\ ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: HP 2100 manuals on ebay > I didn't bid on this (was preparing to snipe), but finally talked to the > other bidder and was sure the documentation would be preserved on bitsavers. > Turns out some other third person won the auction who I don't recognize > their ebay userid. I sure hope it was a classiccmp'er and we'll all benefit > from the archival of the documents. If not... it's probably lost. Big shame, > looked like some great stuff. > > Jay West > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 3 23:06:11 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Foam pads for keytronics keyboards ? In-Reply-To: <09A625D9-E580-11D8-8569-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Does anybody have a current source for the foam pads that are used in > capacitive Keytronics keyboards ? Perhaps a year ago or so, you could still purchase them from Keytronics. Not cheap, but available. - don From rickb at bensene.com Tue Aug 3 23:10:39 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <000701c479d9$00552260$030aa8c0@bensene.com> My list: HP 9100A: Like Tony, I have a 9100B, but would like a 9100A for completeness. I wouldn't tear it apart like Tony does -- scares me to death just to think about it. PDP 10: As far as I'm concerned, the ultimate minicomputer. Just love 'em. Early DG Nova: Always thought these were way cool. A Unibus PDP-11 w/ a real switch & blinky-light front panel: Would love an 11/70, but not likely. My 11/34A with the programmer's panel is good enough to keep me happy for now, but always loved the front panels of the /45 and /70. HP TSB System: Gotta love it! Probably couldn't afford to keep it running, though. IMSAI 8080: Built one in high school as a class project. Had a lot of fun with the project. Would love to find one. I know, I could buy a new one, but it just wouldn't be the same. Casio 14-A Relay Calculator: Yeah -- right. That'll happen :-) Pre-Omnibus PDP 8: Sure...they're everwhere! Friden Computyper: Hen's teeth. Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. Tektronix 4002A Terminal: A magical DVST beast with the best ^G tone ever implemented. There's certainly more, but these are probably closest to the top of the list. I can always dream :-) -Rick From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Aug 3 23:10:55 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040803231055.4c2d14ed.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 02:19:24 +0200 (MEST) "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Alas not over here. The common attidude seems to be 'Why bother to > > program when you can download it from the net' (whether it's PD/open > > source stuff, or 'Warez'). > Very true. > > > In fact over here kids rarely seem to create anything much any more, > > and I can't say I really blame them (note, this is not the same as > > saying that I am not worried by this). You do not get a well-paid > > job (or even a job at all) by being able to program, or do > > engineering, or... You get one by being able ot kick a football or > > strum a guitar badly. > I'd like to insert ".. or do The Talk well enough for a sales job". > Sales is doing well now, since the harder the times get, the better > they pay (good) sales people. > Sadly, I find myself surrounded in professional life by a lot of people who don't do anything dramatic or non-standard at all, but thrive on conforming. They don't play a guitar or kick a football. But they got through school well, and with high marks, by knowing the right answers to give, the proper hoops to leap through to attain approval and high marks, etc. In professional life they are highly rewarded for sitting through meetings politely, knowing how to 'work well on a team' in gantt-chart directed efforts toward developing mediocre products driven by mainstream trends. There isn't room anymore in such circles for generalists, for people who ask 'why' at inappropriate times in the meetings, nor for people who want to understand the whole machine. It's hard as hell to get the total picture, or even a good deep approximation, of how a 'current' PC works, for instance. Going back to my first exposure to computers, on HP Timesharing systems in the mid 70's running BASIC programs, I wanted to know what was 'under the hood.' There was a period, in the 80's when it was almost possible to get all the docs, the era when the IBM Technical Reference manuals had schematics and the complete commented source code for the BIOS chip contents, the era when they printed the schematics right in the manual for the Commodore 64. It used to be able to troubleshoot and repair about any clone 8088-XT motherboard, from the schematic that was included in one of the little manuals that came with MBs then (the days of the TRUE clones, when every Taiwanese motherboard was based on one knockoff copy of the IBM original, down to the part numbers and layout of the TTL chips) Those days are long gone, though. I've got a BUNCH of books and reference materials, i.e. the Mindstorm book series up to the Pentium and the PCI bus, but the tech rolls ever forward, and people look at you funny when you raise questions about punch through abstraction layers like the APIs to talk to a USB device to wrangle the actual bits in question. And it's not really that interesting anymore to know how a PC works. It's such a piled-on design, more fit for study by anthropologists studying the engineering culture of compromise and lowest-common-denominator design than anybody with an appreciation of technical excellence. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 22:53:22 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Aug 3, 4 06:06:31 pm Message-ID: > BGAs are probably easier than QFPs. All you need is a hot air gun and a lot of > flux... The only problem is that if you mess up, you lose the chip (assuming Do you have any recomendations for the tool or any references for how to do it? > you dont have a re-baller or send the chip out to be re-balled), and have to > remove it and start over. RIght :-(. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 23:04:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Teac floppy replacement In-Reply-To: <000c01c479c8$a2f82cd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Aug 3, 4 10:13:29 pm Message-ID: > The model number of the "old" drive is FD55F-03-U and the model number of > the "new" drive is FD55BV-36-U. There are differences in the jumper > designations between the models so I can't readily map the settings. First problem. The 'F' suffix means an 80 cylinder 2 head drive ('720K' to the PC crowd), the 'B' suffix means a 40 cylinder 2 head one ('360K'). I doubt you'll boot an 80 cylinder disk using a 40 cylinder drive! -tony From rickb at bensene.com Tue Aug 3 23:27:05 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 03, 2004 08:10:32 AM Message-ID: <20040804042705.8106E2C002@pail.bensene.com> I did make a few mistakes and an omission in my posting about Tek's computer history. First off, the MDP products did start out with the 8002, but that was through the acquisition of a company called (I believe) Millenium Systems. The 8550 and 8560 (I miswrote it as 8260) did use LSI-11's. The 8550 I think ran DOS-50 (I think it only had two 8" floppy drives), and the 8560 was the one that ran UNIX, although I'm positive the OS wasn't UTek. It was more an AT&T System-III variant (as opposed to UTek, which had its roots in 4.2bsd). I can't remember what they called it, but it wasn't UTek. I used to have an 8560 with single Qume DT-8 floppy drive and the Micropolis 40MB 8" drive. Thing sounded like a small jet plane at takeoff when the drive was spinning up. Gave it away a long time ago. Wish I hadn't. There was a predecessor to the 6130 that ran UTek. It was called the 6205. These were 32032-based machines. Much more powerful than the 6130. They could be had with framebuffers for GUI. I think that they had very early X-Windows servers that ran on them. The display processor I think was based on a National 32016. Tek sold a BUNCH of these at a company "fire sale" when the product was discontinued. They sold for fractions of pennies on the dollar. A lot of local Teks or ex-Teks might even still have some of these in their garages/attics/storage units. -Rick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 23:18:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <000701c479d9$00552260$030aa8c0@bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Aug 3, 4 09:10:39 pm Message-ID: > > My list: > > HP 9100A: Like Tony, I have a 9100B, but would like a 9100A for > completeness. I wouldn't > tear it apart like Tony does -- scares me to death just to think about > it. Why? Admittedly desoldering the 4 parts of the main ROM assembly from each other was a bit worrying, but it all went back together in the end, and I only had to do that once. Pulling it apart without a soldering iron is something I do from time to time anyway (do a google search for the pictures of me at the HPCC 2002 conference to see what I mean). > Casio 14-A Relay Calculator: Yeah -- right. That'll happen :-) Sounds interesting. I have a transistorised Casio (AL-1000), but nothing earlier. > Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. Are they that rare now? I have a couple of ASR33s, with the service manuals. > > Tektronix 4002A Terminal: A magical DVST beast with the best ^G tone > ever implemented. Off-thread [1], but an aspect of HP's wonderful design 30 years ago. I have an HP9830, HP's first personal computer (It's called a calculator, but you can type in BASIC programs, it has a 1-line alphanumeric display, etc). It has a fixed-frequency beeper which sounds when there's an error, etc. There's an output from the I/O interface board (actually, it's one of the signals used for the magnetic card reader control on the 9810, which uses the same CPU, but I digress) that's fed to a circuit on the tape drive interface board. When said signal is asserted, you get a beep. Fixed tone, fixed duratiin Anyway, there's a little extra circuitry (transistor, a few passives) to provided a simple amplitude envelope. Not just a sudden start/stop beep, but one that tails away. No real benefit from having this, but that _was_ HP for you. [1] Off-thread means that I really should start a new thread, off-topic means I shouldn't be posting it here at all :-). -tony From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Aug 3 23:34:14 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: seeking info on ASR-33 interface board Message-ID: <411004D6.20993.61F5BA8F@localhost> Hi Y'all, I just popped open an ASR-33 I picked up a few weeks ago. The tty ran OK in local mode in the store where I found it but in shipment to me something happened, it now free runs (runs free?). Maybe it's a loose connector. In the electronics bay on the right hand side, there's a printed circuit board that runs from front to back. It's definitely a power supply, and probably also an RS-232 to current loop converter. In front is the line/off/local switch, and in back are several large Molex connectors. I was surprised to see this printed on the circuit board: MITS INC TELETYPE INTERFACE BOARD REVISION 0 COPY RIGHT 1976 Does anybody know if this the Altair MITS? The date seems about right. Was it common to produce custom internals like this for teletypes? Anybody have the schematics for this board? Thanks, Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 23:39:33 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Foam pads for keytronics keyboards ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41106885.6040008@pacbell.net> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > >>Does anybody have a current source for the foam pads that are used in >>capacitive Keytronics keyboards ? > > > Perhaps a year ago or so, you could still purchase them from > Keytronics. Not cheap, but available. > > - don keytronics doesn't sell them anymore. they used to charge $0.10/pad. They gave away mfg rights to a 3rd party who charges $0.50/pad. You can read about it and see a keyboard rebuild on my web page: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solkb.html What I did was find a couple Sun "type 4" keyboards on ebay for $5/each. Note that model 5 uses a polymer membrane sheet instead of individual foam pads. Although the type 4 keyboard is going to be at least 10 years old, the foam seems to be in decent shape (perhaps the type of foam used in 1990 is better quality than the foam used in 1977). heck, there are at least six of them on ebay right now. Use this as a search string from the ebay home page: sun "type 4" From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 3 23:41:23 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Teac floppy replacement In-Reply-To: <000c01c479c8$a2f82cd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Hello, all: > > I'm trying to get my "new" Micromint SB180 to work with > the floppy drives > that came with it. I've been given two sets of disks, both of which were > made on a known-working system but which produce read errors on mine. > > The drives pass the internal disgnostics that are in the > SB180 ROM, but I > want to eliminate the drive from the problem by swapping another in. It > appears to use standard 5.25" 1/2-height PC drives except that the "old" > drive has a head-load solenoid while the new one doesn't. > > The model number of the "old" drive is FD55F-03-U and the > model number of > the "new" drive is FD55BV-36-U. There are differences in the jumper > designations between the models so I can't readily map the settings. > > Can anyone help with this? Thanks. Rich, the 55F is a 96tpi drive while the 55BV is 48tpi. That difference is likely the cause of your problem. - don > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 4 00:08:34 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408040008.34642.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 03 August 2004 20:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Some of my favorite "rarer" machines are my General Automation > > SPC-16/40 and /45 (which are neither complete nor functional right > > now ): It was a machine targeted where the Data General Nova was > > targeted (a general purpose 16bit machine in the early 70s). > > Nice. You're the only one I know of that has these. I have some > Naked Mini's and another model that escapes me currently. Unfortunately, one of Purdue's custodial staff decided that the frontpanel for the /45 which I placed between the trashbin and rack was supposed to be thrown out. Argh! At least they're electically (and physically) interchangable between the two models. Fabricating a new one is somewhere on my to-do list, under getting my 11/750 up since I've now got a RM03, checking out the Multimax (and getting pictures up on my website), moving my webserver to a new box, so it can be a bitsavers mirror, and unpacking from my move to a new house (paying rent to a friend for sharing the space) that I finished moving over a week ago. > > Encore Multimax - a massively SMP UNIX box with NS32332s (or > > 32232's?) that went up to 40 processors and 128MB of memory in the > > late 80s, and ran a Mach-based Unix. I've not yet gotten that up > > and running, but I've got install tapes and documentation for it > > that the SPC-16s don't. > > Very nice! :) Goes well with my(+friends) IBM SP, NCR Worldmark 5100 node (2 separate 32-Way Microchannel-architecture Pentium-PRO boxes in one cabinet), and 16xR4400 and 8xR10k SGI Challenge XLs. None quite old enough to be classic, but all quite interesting (massively MP) machines. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jimmydevice at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 00:07:16 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040804042705.8106E2C002@pail.bensene.com> References: <20040804042705.8106E2C002@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <41106F04.80709@verizon.net> Rick Bensene wrote: >I did make a few mistakes and an omission in my posting about Tek's >computer history. > >First off, the MDP products did start out with the 8002, but that >was through the acquisition of a company called (I believe) Millenium Systems. > >The 8550 and 8560 (I miswrote it as 8260) did use LSI-11's. The 8550 I >think ran DOS-50 (I think it only had two 8" floppy drives), and >the 8560 was the one that ran UNIX, although I'm positive >the OS wasn't UTek. It was more an AT&T System-III variant (as >opposed to UTek, which had its roots in 4.2bsd). I can't >remember what they called it, but it wasn't UTek. I used >to have an 8560 with single Qume DT-8 floppy drive and the Micropolis >40MB 8" drive. Thing sounded like a small jet plane at takeoff when >the drive was spinning up. Gave it away a long time ago. Wish I hadn't. > >There was a predecessor to the 6130 that ran UTek. It was called the 6205. >These were 32032-based machines. Much more powerful than the 6130. >They could be had with framebuffers for GUI. I think that they had very >early X-Windows servers that ran on them. The display processor I think >was based on a National 32016. Tek sold a BUNCH of these at a >company "fire sale" when the product was discontinued. They sold for >fractions of pennies on the dollar. A lot of local Teks or ex-Teks >might even still have some of these in their garages/attics/storage units. > >-Rick > > > > I have a rather large collection of 6205 systems. They were classified as bigboard or production systems I probably have a dozen bigboard CPUs, maybe 8 IOP;s a couple 6205 boxes with frame buffer and graphics units. I don't have the OS anymore and my maxstore XT1105 is not in good shape. I' will take offers on the stuff, either boards or systems. Mail me with your wish list. Jim Davis. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Aug 4 00:08:17 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) Message-ID: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Rick Bensene wrote: > Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. What's the difference between ASR-33 and ASR-35? I've also heard of a Teletype 37, what is that one? MS From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Aug 4 00:36:56 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040804053656.GA20469@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 05:08:17AM +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. > > What's the difference between ASR-33 and ASR-35? Superficially, the ASR-33 is 110 bps (10 cps), the ASR-35 is 300 bps (30 cps). Internally, the ASR-35 is much more solid in its construction and better able to handle 24/7 operation. -ethan ObTrivia: When I was working at CompuServe, my desktop backdrop was a picture of a KA-10 w/ASR-35 console. -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 05:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.0 F (-57.3 C) Windchill -113.6 F (-80.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.6 kts Grid 041 Barometer 665.7 mb (11172. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 00:40:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) In-Reply-To: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > I'm not so keen on the CHM. I don't know if I aired this already or > not, but I think not. > > When I left the bay area a couple months ago, I tried to give my working > wang 2200 with terminal, manuals, working floppy disk system, > fixed/removable hard disk system, and disks. > > It took a LOT of work (weeks of one-sided prodding) on my part to have > them consider it. "The curator will contact you in a few days..." (a > week passes), another email, "The curator will contact you in a few > days...", more time passes, another email, "Could you describe it > again?", etc. > > After more than a month of delay, I received and email with the tenor of > a form letter along these lines: Dear Jim, thank you for considering the > CHM. Unfortunately at this time we don't have an interest in obtaining > your keypunch machine. Here are the names of some other museums that > may be interested ... > > It went to the digibarn instead. That they didn't want my computer > isn't what ruffled me -- it was their seeming indifference to what I > thought was a generous offer. At any rate, I'm sure the computer ended > up with someone (Bruce) who appreciates it more than the CHM. Jim, I'm a big fan of the CHM (as you may have guessed). I can assure you that the problems you had, while inexcusable, are mostly because of a lack of adequate staff to handle the inquiries they get. You shouldn't feel slighted or insulted by it. Your Wang should have gone to the CHM. However, I'm glad Bruce ended up with it, because the DigiBarn will be a great long-term home for it. It was the CHM's loss. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Aug 4 00:42:54 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004a01c479e5$e3477800$4d4d2c0a@atx> > > Arcturus, reputedly London University's first computer. CPU boards > > in a small rack, all TTL as far as I can tell. > > I am supreised that London University didn't have any sort of computer > before the late 1960s (that's when TTL came out IIRC). > When I was a student at Kings (KCL), London in the late 60s The 6600 at ULCC (University of London Computer Centre) had just opened. In a strict administrative sense this was the first University of London computer - all previous having belonged to the Colleges or Institutes. KCL acquired a CDC 1700 as a RJE station for this (they also had a (dumb) RJE station for the Atlas - hidden in an obscure room in a basement corridor along with a couple of Flexowriters). (and there were still rooms of desk-top calculators) The Atlas at ICS (Institute of Computer Science) was still running - and had RJE entry from the major colleges). I did have a valid account code for this and it is one of my regrets that I never used it. UCL (University College) had an IBM 360/65 - served by a courier service from most colleges. This was the first computer on which I ran a program. Imperial (IC) had an IBM 7094 (think it was a 7094 II) and a few smaller machines. Queen Mary College (QMC) had just installed an ICT 1900 of some sort - almost certainly their first 1905E. [there would probably also have been a few PDP 8s and similar about the University] Note that most - if not all - of the above would have been based on discrete components and none would have used TTL. DTL packaging looks just like TTL (except for 3-digit type codes rather than 4) but I doubt if that was used in any of the above either. Andy From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 00:45:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: seeking info on ASR-33 interface board In-Reply-To: <411004D6.20993.61F5BA8F@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Brian Knittel wrote: > In the electronics bay on the right hand side, there's a printed > circuit board that runs from front to back. It's definitely a power > supply, and probably also an RS-232 to current loop converter. In > front is the line/off/local switch, and in back are several large > Molex connectors. I was surprised to see this printed on the circuit > board: > > MITS INC > TELETYPE INTERFACE BOARD > REVISION 0 > COPY RIGHT 1976 > > Does anybody know if this the Altair MITS? The date seems about > right. It most likely is. What a cool find! > Was it common to produce custom internals like this for teletypes? I believe so, but someone more knowledgeable should chime in. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at spies.com Wed Aug 4 00:56:49 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: TI 980 Message-ID: <20040804055649.1C58A3CBE@spies.com> > With the severe lack of docs, I haven't even powered it on yet. have you looked at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/980 ? The 960 was the process control computer. 980's are fairly conventional 16 bit minicomputers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 4 00:57:35 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Serial port speed References: <410EC37B.2030805@jetnet.ab.ca> <410EFB70.1090608@barrera.org> <410F06DB.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040802205828.W26023@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41107ACF.9040704@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > But, admittedly, if you tried to do serial I/O using the BIOS > routines, then you might very well be limited to not much over > 300 baud. Well that is the point of a OS, is it not that you DON'T have to write I/O routines. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com Grumpy old Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 4 01:16:49 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <200408032135.OAA27863@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <41107F51.3060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > But where does one draw the line > for things like laptops. It isn't just a matter > of being first, it is a matter of actually > starting a particular trend. Some of these items > may actually be rare while others may be common > as dirt. TRS-80's surely had a significant > effect. Or even the future. I was just watching a Japanese Anime with computers in the near future, and the laptops had a TRS-8000 logo on them. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 4 01:27:52 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. References: Message-ID: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > It's easier to preserve the manuals -- if they exist -- though. Some times you must do more than that even. Alot of the newer chips are clones of earlyer chips and the doc's are sparce so you must gp to the orginal docs for quirks and bugs. Ben. PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a CPU designed for reliable operation for real time control of things like power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed it was so simple that programs could be proven to be bug free. I was wondering if they manufactured or sold any the devices. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 4 03:22:34 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:51 2005 Subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8020000.1091607754@libcat1.york.ac.uk> --On Tuesday, August 03, 2004 23:33:18 +0100 Tony Duell wrote: > > > The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw > > > and file. Well done they are not! > > > > Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard > > to homebrew. > > I beleive they're both genuine Exidy ones, although the ROMs in one > were replaced by EPROMs (I have the mask-programmed ROMs somewhere > too). Mine are rather like that too. Tony, are both of yours Exidy Standard BASIC, or do you have a WP Pac or a DevPac? Does anyone have WP or DevPac manuals? -- Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Wed Aug 4 04:15:36 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1091610936.11076.201665434@webmail.messagingengine.com> Well, machines I'd like to have in my collection are (in no order whatsoever): -Laptops & Portables- Dynalogic Hyperion. GRiDCase 3. Zeos Pocket PC. Acorn A4. Compaq Portable 3. Compaq Portable 4. IBM PC Radio. HP-85. IBM PC Convertible. -Desktops & Workstations- NeXTStation Color Turbo. Macintosh IIfx. Xerox 860. Original Commodore PET. Amiga 4000T. Macintosh Color Classic II. Xerox 820-II Macintosh SE/30. -Miscellaneous- Cromemco System 3. On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:33:34 +0000, "Ethan Dicks" said: > On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 11:48:42PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I fact let's start a thread of what items people feel are missing from > > their collections, Here's mine... (No, I am not asking for any of these...) > > > PDP10 (any model) > > Me, too. I missed a KL10 taken home by an ex-CompuServant by six months. > (it was in his garage, then he pitched it). I was hoping to pick up a > discarded SC-25 or SC-30 when those were obsoleted, but I heard through > the grapevine that those were collected by Systems Concepts. > > So... I have to content myself with running klh10 in the meantime (901 > hours > of uptime since I last rebooted to get the NI20 going). > > > PDP12 (I have the full set of manuals) > > Boy, that'd be nice, too... or maybe a LINC-8 > > > Apple Lisa (I'd like to see how much worse it was than the classic PERQ) > > I wouldn't mind one of those, either. I remember using them before the > Mac > came out (at the local University). I couldn't compare them to a PERQ, > but > I could compare them to my experiences with the original Macintosh in > 1984. > > In the 12-bit world, I'm still missing a PDP-8/m, a PDP-8/f, and a WT-78. > I have an -8/e, so the -8/f is really optional, but since the -8/m is > a little different (smaller box, LED front panel...) that'd be a nice one > to have, too. > > I really have enough classic CPUs to keep me busy for the rest of my > life. > What I'm always on the lookout for is *peripherals* for those CPUs, > especially > disks for pre-1985 DEC machines. > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 01:20 > Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.5 F (-57.0 C) Windchill -115.3 F > (-81.8 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 18 kts Grid 034 Barometer 666 mb > (11160 ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 4 03:31:54 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <20040803211826.69520.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040803211826.69520.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040804103154.77bfc871.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:18:26 -0700 (PDT) SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > In my eyes X86 is not bad at all. Every divert from > X86 Intel made was a failure. I432, I860, I960, > Itanium, all failed. Maybe because everything intel makes is a failure, but only x86 "made it" because IBM happend to choose it for one of there products by accident? BTW: I860, I960 didn't fail. They where used in a wide varity of embedded applications. I think they never where intended to be used for general purpose computing. > Maybe 8051 is an exception. This is a 8 bit microcontroller, very different from the 32 / 64 bit CPUs. > Also CISC won the battle with RISC finally. No. Todays x86 CPUs are RISC cores with hardware x86-to-RISC translators. This is an evil hack only to keep the howly cow of backward compatibility alive. Everything else is RISC for at least 10 years now. (Well, that is mostly Aplle. All major UNIX vendors switched to RISC in the mid to late 80's.) > It might be better for DEC to develop faster VAX than to develop > Alpha. VAX is overCISCed and therefore hard to implement. All those addressing modes that make it hard to design a memory subsystem... Small page size... It is a 32 bit design also, where you need 64 bit address space in (today - 10 year) enterprise computing. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 4 02:27:23 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040804042705.8106E2C002@pail.bensene.com> References: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> <20040804042705.8106E2C002@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20040804092723.58f124c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 21:27:05 -0700 (PDT) rickb@bensene.com (Rick Bensene) wrote: > The 8550 and 8560 (I miswrote it as 8260) did use LSI-11's. The 8550 I > think ran DOS-50 (I think it only had two 8" floppy drives), and > the 8560 was the one that ran UNIX, although I'm positive > the OS wasn't UTek. It was more an AT&T System-III variant (as > opposed to UTek, which had its roots in 4.2bsd). It was called TNIX, I got the manuals with my 8560. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 4 02:01:46 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Hard drive options In-Reply-To: <200408031837.OAA03876@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408021254.14891.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <200408021551.LAA22586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040802211525.4a1cb550.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <200408031837.OAA03876@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040804090146.2b50acef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 00:14:39 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > I've tried with all four disable jumpers _and_ the FORCE SE MODE > jumper, and it _still_ doesn't work with my SS20. :-( "DIS PAR" and "DIS UN A" may have been to much. (DIS F/W NEG is "disable wide") > I am annoyed. Understandable. That is really bad. Well. IBM drives are knowen to me to be "problematic"... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 4 05:23:49 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) In-Reply-To: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> References: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1091615029.26885.44.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 03:05, Jim Battle wrote: > I'm not so keen on the CHM. I don't know if I aired this already or > not, but I think not. > > When I left the bay area a couple months ago, I tried to give my working > wang 2200 with terminal, manuals, working floppy disk system, > fixed/removable hard disk system, and disks. > > It took a LOT of work (weeks of one-sided prodding) on my part to have > them consider it. "The curator will contact you in a few days..." (a > week passes), another email, "The curator will contact you in a few > days...", more time passes, another email, "Could you describe it > again?", etc. > > After more than a month of delay, I received and email with the tenor of > a form letter along these lines: Dear Jim, thank you for considering the > CHM. Unfortunately at this time we don't have an interest in obtaining > your keypunch machine. Here are the names of some other museums that > may be interested ... Well, Bletchley's not so much different I suppose. The museum's horribly under-staffed by volunteers who are naturally busy doing other things most of the time. The volunteers aren't local enough to see immediately what examples of the machine being offered we have on site and the condition. The only time there's generally a quick response is when it's something we know we either don't have, or something so common that we know we have lots of them or would have no trouble finding one when we suddenly needed one. Personally the first thing I usually ask of anyone offering to donate something is how soon they need it gone :-) We've had people throw stuff in the bin before because they haven't had a response the same day. cheers, Jules From hansp at citem.org Wed Aug 4 05:56:27 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe In-Reply-To: <1091615029.26885.44.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> <1091615029.26885.44.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4110C0DB.1020109@citem.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Well, Bletchley's not so much different I suppose. The museum's horribly > under-staffed by volunteers who are naturally busy doing other things > most of the time. The volunteers aren't local enough to see immediately > what examples of the machine being offered we have on site and the > condition. The only time there's generally a quick response is when it's > something we know we either don't have, or something so common that we > know we have lots of them or would have no trouble finding one when we > suddenly needed one. Very much the same as ACONIT here in Grenoble. > Personally the first thing I usually ask of anyone offering to donate > something is how soon they need it gone :-) We've had people throw stuff > in the bin before because they haven't had a response the same day. One problem with this decision making process is that you might well discard valuable items without knowing. Here at ACONIT we have a general policy of always taking donations but with the proviso that we might discard later. The rationale is that the donors often does not know what they have and a short phone or email description is not sufficient to know. Two examples : we were offered what was described as an Olivetti 101 which we already had 3 examples of. I was very reluctant to accept another but the donor insisted saying it was complete with desk etc etc. Eventually I agreed and when the machine arrived it was not a 101 at all but a different model with cute tape cartridges and lots of other interesting accessories and including quite a number of the mag cards used both for that machine and the 101. Lesson learned, when someone offered us some Apple equipment we accepted them not really needing yet another mac or apple or whatever. Imagine my delight when on examining the donation at ACONIT I opened a cardboard box and see 2 pristine KIM-1 boards with full documentation. I know space and other constraints make this policy difficult to adhere to but I continue to fight for it. -- HansP From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 4 06:28:23 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe In-Reply-To: <4110C0DB.1020109@citem.org> References: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> <1091615029.26885.44.camel@weka.localdomain> <4110C0DB.1020109@citem.org> Message-ID: <1091618903.26885.66.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 10:56, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > > Personally the first thing I usually ask of anyone offering to donate > > something is how soon they need it gone :-) We've had people throw stuff > > in the bin before because they haven't had a response the same day. > > One problem with this decision making process is that you might well > discard valuable items without knowing. Yep, that is always a danger. A lot of things we get offered come from people who weren't the original user of the machine, so they don't know anything about it other than what they've read on the label. They could know nothing of any rare expansion options etc. > Here at ACONIT we have a general > policy of always taking donations but with the proviso that we might > discard later. I'm trying to press for that policy at Bletchley too. Sometimes if offered something common I do ask if we may take it with the intention of one day selling it to raise money for the museum - the donor still makes a contribution to the museum that way, and the machine doesn't end up in the bin. I'm trying to figure out a way that we can take everything in order to save it, but then offer things we're not interested in or can't physically store long-term to other collectors (on this list, for instance). I don't like the idea that if the museum doesn't take offered equipment that a lot of the time it will get thrown out. Usually people offering us stuff don't seem to mind what happens to the hardware if it's going to a good home. The only problem is that the museum has to deal with the Park Trust who run the rest of the site, and they certainly wouldn't like lots of people turning up to pick equipment up - it's also difficult when we're not around really except for weekends, and none of us really have the space to store things at home... If the museum were one with the rest of the park it wouldn't be so much of a problem - could just set aside a room for pickups, say, and just let security know names / car registration of whoever was coming to pick something up that day. > Lesson learned, when someone offered us some Apple equipment we accepted > them not really needing yet another mac or apple or whatever. Imagine my > delight when on examining the donation at ACONIT I opened a cardboard > box and see 2 pristine KIM-1 boards with full documentation. Yes, we get that too. Often people think they're being sneaky by hiding what they consider to be junk in with their dontation. We seem to get a lot of old calculators that way! cheers, Jules From rachael at rachael.dyndns.org Wed Aug 4 09:12:15 2004 From: rachael at rachael.dyndns.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: infovox 500 speechsyntizer Message-ID: <554.712T750T9122166rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> Hello Today I found a infovox 500 speech syntizer card, its a small 8bit isa card, dominated by a massiv 68hc000 dil, two 27c2001 eproms, two 62256 32kb sram, and a 88c681 Uart along with a db25 rs232 serial port. Does anyone knows such a card ? My initial thought when I brought it was to remove the parts as everything is socket, but now I`m not sure, might be fun to use or even usefull to someone. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: rachael@rachael.dyndns.org url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 4 08:34:19 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <16656.58843.130291.685842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> Rick Bensene wrote: >> Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. Michael> What's the difference between ASR-33 and ASR-35? I've also Michael> heard of a Teletype 37, what is that one? A 33 is the cheap common clunker that's designed for intermittent duty (4 hours per day max). It was often used in non-stop application, in which case it will frequently break. A 35 is a much heavier, much less common, machine that IS designed for 100% duty. I think a 37 is, roughly, a 35 with upper and lower case. Mechanically, a 33 has a print head that looks like a little cylinder, vaguely like the Selectric ball but a different shape. It turns to the right letter, then a hammer bashes it on the back to slam it against the paper. A 35 has a rectangular device that holds a collection of individual character hammers -- think of the tip of a typewriter arm, attached by the back to a guide. It moves to position the right character, then a hammer hits the back of the type guide to push it (but not the whole mechanism) against the paper. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 4 08:35:13 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20040804053656.GA20469@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16656.58897.445084.423805@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 05:08:17AM +0000, Michael Sokolov Ethan> wrote: >> Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> > Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. >> >> What's the difference between ASR-33 and ASR-35? Ethan> Superficially, the ASR-33 is 110 bps (10 cps), the ASR-35 is Ethan> 300 bps (30 cps). I don't think so. I believe a 35 is 110 bps also. Maybe a hair faster but no way would it do 300. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 08:48:51 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <000501c47a20$22e5e390$1ca8a8c0@DRCSales> References: <000501c47a20$22e5e390$1ca8a8c0@DRCSales> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804083612.07bf5778@pc> Dan, I'll forward your message to the Classic Computer Collector mailing list at http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html . There are many people there who might be able to help. - John At 07:39 AM 8/4/2004, "Dan Chambers" wrote: >To Whom It May Concern: > I have a PDP-8 that’s down and about all I’m good for is swapping boards. Do you know anything about these systems or do you know anyone who would. I need to get mine repaired. >Thanks, > > >Dan Chambers >Technical Support and Tooling Engineer >Plant 888-PCD-PCBN (723-7226) >Cell 815-766-0775 >Fax 815-522-6229 > From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Wed Aug 4 09:34:28 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409581F@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Honniball > Sent: 03 August 2004 18:32 > To: General@encke.easily.co.uk; > Discussion@encke.easily.co.uk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto > Restoration + Emulation > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Apple /// (possibly lots worldwide; there don't seem to be many > > people this side of the pond who have seen one though) > > I have one! It came with the ProFile external hard disk, and > a box of expansion cards, too. I rather like the two-click > cursor keys, where you can press harder on the key to make > the auto-repeat go faster. And I like the big holes in the > expansion cards to help you to lever them out with a > screwdriver. The whole of the machine chassis is one big > diecasting and acts as a heatsink. Yeah. I ended up with 2, one for spares, and it was a good job since I was crashed into bringing it home and it ended up with a mashed keyboard. Must get round to fixing it one of these days. I've also not managed to get my spare profile working with the other working machine yet, but it's 250 miles away and low priority :) Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Wed Aug 4 09:35:29 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095820@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 03 August 2004 18:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: rarest computers > > > I have one of these, but I'm missing most of the overlays. Also the > > rifle for some of the games is long since trashed. Some day > I'll dig > > the thing out and see if the system itself still works. > > I got one of mine working recently. It was pretty cool to > see it actually work for the first time. Nice! Mine's NTSC and I need to build a game cable so I can plug it into the tv card in my peecee. Wouldn't surprise me if it was dead. It's been disassembled here: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Magnavox/odyssey.php 'all' that circuitry can generate is 2 player objects, a ball object and optionally a net object down the middle. Top stuff! Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 09:35:54 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093252.081f93e0@pc> I recently tried reading some CDs burned in 1998 or so, on a nice SCSI Sony burner of the time, on Taiyo Yuden media, kept in sleeves with no label or Sharpie, in a fire-safe case (yes, I realize it wouldn't help except in the lightest fire) in an A/C office environment. One of five had an error. On the other hand, I probably didn't check the original for read errors after I made it. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 09:36:48 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: May mailing list change? Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093556.081f90c8@pc> I noticed that my CC-talk and CC-tech mailings stopped in early May. I re-subscribed today. Was there a known glitch? - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 4 09:49:31 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Classic Book... In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804083612.07bf5778@pc> Message-ID: "TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster (1976)" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5113822019& rd=1 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 09:43:46 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804083612.07bf5778@pc> References: <000501c47a20$22e5e390$1ca8a8c0@DRCSales> <6.1.1.1.2.20040804083612.07bf5778@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093900.081f8e38@pc> I'd love to be able to read, write and archive my old 8 floppies, too. I'd once day-dreamed of getting a Compaticard and dedicating an old PC to the task. But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be able to store the label along with the archived disk image. - John From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Wed Aug 4 09:53:03 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Signetics kit available in the UK Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095825@emma.Beovax.Local> Folks, Had this mail in from a bloke who has a Signetics development to (I assume) give away; reply to him direct as usual. Cheers w > > Geoff Baxendale (thebears@sarno.freeserve.co.uk) on July > > 29th, 2004 at 10:47PM (BST). > > > > Hi Adrian, > > > > > > > > I have a Signetics 2560 development system complte with 8" > > floppies VDU and printer. Any interest? Enjoyed you site, From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 4 10:11:52 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> <1091610936.11076.201665434@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <002501c47a35$6136c050$3b406b43@66067007> I had to just toss 20+ SE/30's and some IIfx's (2 or 3). How close are you to Houston as there are several of the machines on your list that come up all the time around here? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Vohs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:15 AM Subject: Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) > Well, machines I'd like to have in my collection are (in no order > whatsoever): > > -Laptops & Portables- > > Dynalogic Hyperion. > GRiDCase 3. > Zeos Pocket PC. > Acorn A4. > Compaq Portable 3. > Compaq Portable 4. > IBM PC Radio. > HP-85. > IBM PC Convertible. > > -Desktops & Workstations- > > NeXTStation Color Turbo. > Macintosh IIfx. > Xerox 860. > Original Commodore PET. > Amiga 4000T. > Macintosh Color Classic II. > Xerox 820-II > Macintosh SE/30. > > -Miscellaneous- > > Cromemco System 3. > > > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:33:34 +0000, "Ethan Dicks" > said: > > On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 11:48:42PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I fact let's start a thread of what items people feel are missing from > > > their collections, Here's mine... (No, I am not asking for any of these...) > > > > > PDP10 (any model) > > > > Me, too. I missed a KL10 taken home by an ex-CompuServant by six months. > > (it was in his garage, then he pitched it). I was hoping to pick up a > > discarded SC-25 or SC-30 when those were obsoleted, but I heard through > > the grapevine that those were collected by Systems Concepts. > > > > So... I have to content myself with running klh10 in the meantime (901 > > hours > > of uptime since I last rebooted to get the NI20 going). > > > > > PDP12 (I have the full set of manuals) > > > > Boy, that'd be nice, too... or maybe a LINC-8 > > > > > Apple Lisa (I'd like to see how much worse it was than the classic PERQ) > > > > I wouldn't mind one of those, either. I remember using them before the > > Mac > > came out (at the local University). I couldn't compare them to a PERQ, > > but > > I could compare them to my experiences with the original Macintosh in > > 1984. > > > > In the 12-bit world, I'm still missing a PDP-8/m, a PDP-8/f, and a WT-78. > > I have an -8/e, so the -8/f is really optional, but since the -8/m is > > a little different (smaller box, LED front panel...) that'd be a nice one > > to have, too. > > > > I really have enough classic CPUs to keep me busy for the rest of my > > life. > > What I'm always on the lookout for is *peripherals* for those CPUs, > > especially > > disks for pre-1985 DEC machines. > > > > -ethan > > > > -- > > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 01:20 > > Z > > South Pole Station > > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.5 F (-57.0 C) Windchill -115.3 F > > (-81.8 C) > > APO AP 96598 Wind 18 kts Grid 034 Barometer 666 mb > > (11160 ft) > > > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From cb at mythtech.net Wed Aug 4 10:42:03 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's Message-ID: >in a >fire-safe case (yes, I realize it wouldn't help except in >the lightest fire) Depending on the case/safe/cabinet, it may actually help quite a bit. They are generally rated to 1200 degrees or higher for 45 minutes or longer. If you have a 1200 degree fire for 45 minutes, then your house is a total loss. A fully involved room doesn't usually get to 1200 degrees (flashover will usually happen around 600-750 degrees depending on air and flamability of the items in the room). However, many MANY people make the mistake of putting their fire resistant safe in an upstairs bedroom for easy access. That will likely cause a failure much sooner then its fire rating. Why? Because as the structure burns, the floor weakens, and now you have a 100+ pound weight sitting on a burned, water soaked, weak floor. It tends to break thru the floor, and not stop falling until it hits the basement two stories down. Usually the impact will make the casing of the safe fail and either pop the door open, or totally destroy the outer shell. In either case, the fire rating has been removed, and the contents will now happily burn. Are these types of boxes/safes the best option? No, but they are better then using a rubbermaid container or a regular file cabinet. For truely important paperwork, a safe deposit box is probably the best option (although they are very rarely fire rated at all, but the safes always have fire suppression systems in them, and seal air tight, so the odds of a fire getting very large is pretty slim). -chris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 4 10:39:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093900.081f8e38@pc> References: <000501c47a20$22e5e390$1ca8a8c0@DRCSales> <6.1.1.1.2.20040804083612.07bf5778@pc> <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093900.081f8e38@pc> Message-ID: <1091633963.26885.98.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 14:43, John Foust wrote: > You need an > archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. Odd, but I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier. My other random thought was that storage is cheap these days - is it desirable to include the file format spec itself as part of the file format? :-) If you're going to be storing a few hundred KB of data (or tens of KB at least) on modern hardware, then a few KB of ASCII within the file explaining the structure is no hardship. Then in x years time when someone's long since lost any supporting documentation, at least all they need to do is view the data in a text editor and it'll tell them the structure. Personally I wouldn't mind a few % of overhead on each file. Taking it a step further, if there's room to define the data format (filesystem) on the original disc too, then all the better! > It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info > such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be > able to store the label along with the archived disk image. yep, and of course what system it's for, the date the archive was created, name / (possibly) contact info for the person who the floppy came from, version of the archive program used to create the archive etc. In the days when disk storage is aimed at people saving huge audio and video files, 'wasteful' metadata for an archived floppy image doesn't seem to much of a problem to me, not when it might prove useful to someone in the years to come (possibly long after the hardware itself's disappeared off the map) Preferably I'd like something to cope not just with floppy images, but hard disk images too, ROM images, and possibly even scans of paper documentation. Some sort of tagged system springs to mind; the fact that binary and ACSII data is being mixed suggests that maybe all the binary data should come toward the end of the file as a continuous block, with some sort of table as part of the file metadata information defining file offsets / lengths for different chunks of binary data (whether they be disk sectors or whatever). No, that's not very editable, but then this is an archive format and not designed to be changed once created anyway. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 4 11:13:55 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: seeking info on ASR-33 interface board Message-ID: <200408041613.JAA28524@clulw009.amd.com> Hi One of the things I've seen that is most of these machines seem to lack lubrication. These things need lots of oil. If you've no run it for a month or two, you'll most likely need to quirt some oil in it. The other thing is if they are run for some time, they need to be cleaned. This means partial disassembly and dunking in solvent ( a large sonic cleaner system is best but one of those automotive part cleaning trays with the pump works well ). There are a lot of moving parts and they all rub against something. Anyway, for the original problem, check the coupling between the printer unit and the keyboard. The "H" coupling piece often pops off. This will cause the machine to not lockup when in the local mode. That board is most likely a RS232 interface card. Maybe some pictures would be good. Dwight >From: "Brian Knittel" > >Hi Y'all, > >I just popped open an ASR-33 I picked up a few weeks ago. The tty ran >OK in local mode in the store where I found it but in shipment to me >something happened, it now free runs (runs free?). Maybe it's a loose >connector. > >In the electronics bay on the right hand side, there's a printed >circuit board that runs from front to back. It's definitely a power >supply, and probably also an RS-232 to current loop converter. In >front is the line/off/local switch, and in back are several large >Molex connectors. I was surprised to see this printed on the circuit >board: > >MITS INC >TELETYPE INTERFACE BOARD >REVISION 0 >COPY RIGHT 1976 > >Does anybody know if this the Altair MITS? The date seems about >right. > >Was it common to produce custom internals like this for teletypes? > >Anybody have the schematics for this board? > >Thanks, >Brian > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >_| _| _| Brian Knittel >_| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. >_| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 >_| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 >_| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com >_| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 4 11:27:22 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Classic Book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message "David V. Corbin" wrote: > "TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster (1976)" > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5113822019& > rd=1 "Ships to: United States Only." Bah. Oh well, at least I can take some comfort in the fact that I've just managed to find a (rather tatty) copy of the book "Electronic Prototype Construction" by Stephen Kasten. Hm, "AT&T Bell Library Network" sticker stuck to the inside front cover... Still, all the pages are there and the binding is intact, even if the covers aren't :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I've got a mind like a... a... what's that thing called? From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 4 12:00:32 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (rcini@optonline.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: SIMH on Slashdot Message-ID: In case anyone hasn't seen the Slashdot article on SIMH, here's the link. About midway down is my little blurb on the Altair32 project. Right now at 2 ( Informative)...hoping to hit 5. http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/04/146202&tid=137&tid=190&tid=126 Rich From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Aug 4 12:27:21 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: old stuff found Message-ID: Hi all, I found three interesting bits of stuff today: 1. HeathkitH-8 2. Tandy Color Computer 3 3. Instructigraph code/teletype practice set with practice tapes, keys and (tube) amp There's also a cute Tandy 200-in-one Electronics Lab kit, thats way cool :) I am cleaning out someone's garage for them, and would probably want to sell the above items to get them some money. Any interest here, or should I go ePay ? Cheers, Fred From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 4 12:37:24 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: old stuff found In-Reply-To: from "Fred N. van Kempen" at Aug 4, 04 07:27:21 pm Message-ID: <200408041737.NAA21136@wordstock.com> And thusly Fred N. van Kempen spake: > > > There's also a cute Tandy 200-in-one Electronics Lab > kit, thats way cool :) > Does this include analog and digital projects? Cheers, Bryan Pope From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Aug 4 12:55:58 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: old stuff found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8A810F34-E63F-11D8-8569-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > Waar heb je die spullen gevonden ? (for non-dutch speakers : Fred, location ?) From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 4 12:58:46 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:53:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >>They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I >>don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence >>is accurate. Al Kossow would certainly beg to differ... he has some, I believe, and knows others who do. >Hi >I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their >rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list Oooooooh a liststorm coming! First, define 'rare'... I would say, less than 10 machines known to exist, as an arbitrary figure. OK, here's the Corestore contribution: Two pdp-12s (not 'rare' by above definition, but rareish and very much in demand) Three pdp-10s (a KS (not very rare), a KL 1091 (rare), and a KL 2065 (rare) Two pdp-15s (I know of one other in UK, 4 others in USA) An IBM 1800 (unique, as far as I know) Two IBM System/32s (again unique - know of no others in collections) A Thinking Machines CM-2a (very few other CMs around, but my -2a is unique AFAIK) I'd like to add an IBM System/360 Model 40 to the list, but it *still* isn't here... negotiating! Any of these systems folks wouldn't consider 'rare'? Curious... What rare machine do I covet most? A System/360 Model 30. KA or KI pdp-10 a close second. Web pages: http://www.corestore.org/12.htm (no page for 2nd pdp-12 yet) http://www.corestore.org/15-1.htm http://www.corestore.org/15-2.htm http://www.corestore.org/dec20.htm http://www.corestore.org/dec10.htm http://www.corestore.org/2065move.htm (no proper page yet) http://www.corestore.org/1800-2.htm http://www.corestore.org/32.htm (no page for 2nd System/32 yet) http://www.corestore.org/cm2a.htm Mike http://www.corestore.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 4 13:01:07 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: May mailing list change? References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093556.081f90c8@pc> Message-ID: <00b701c47a4d$043b92a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> My most likely guess would be that you were autounsubscribed due to bounces. Also, you shouldn't be subscribed to both lists, just one or the other. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:36 AM Subject: May mailing list change? > > I noticed that my CC-talk and CC-tech mailings stopped in > early May. I re-subscribed today. Was there a known glitch? > > - John > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 4 13:06:04 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: VCM Message-ID: <4111258C.78341E36@rain.org> Since I will be leaving for Europe (Hungary/Czech Republic) in several weeks, the stuff I have listed on VCM will be expiring on 8/12. It would be nice to see more names listing things too :). From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 13:18:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe In-Reply-To: <1091618903.26885.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm trying to figure out a way that we can take everything in order to > save it, but then offer things we're not interested in or can't > physically store long-term to other collectors (on this list, for > instance). I don't like the idea that if the museum doesn't take offered > equipment that a lot of the time it will get thrown out. This dilemma is common amongst computer museums actually. There are numerous problems, the least of which is insulting the donor if you do end up selling of his/her prized computing possession as unworthy for your collection :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 4 13:20:53 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093252.081f93e0@pc> Message-ID: <001201c47a4f$c7011b00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > the lightest fire) in an A/C office environment. One of > five had an error. On the other hand, I probably didn't > check the original for read errors after I made it. I wonder how many reported errors are actually write failures rather than media failures? When I came across my first error, I started to make sure that I always (where possible) added some sort of CRC checksum when burning *and* checking it after burning (and after labelling with a marker pen) immediately afterwards. That used to catch a 5% failure rate back in the days when I was using a 486 and then a K6-233 to do the burning. These days I don't see any burn errors any more. I've no idea whether that's down to the faster machine, the newer CD (now DVD) burner, the burn-proof technology or better media. Since then I've only had one verifiable failure - a DVD-R that had failed within the first year. Not good, but the overall failure rate doesn't seem too bad. I still write anything important to two discs though (they're now cheap enough that anything else seems foolish). When disks become cheap enough I'll go back and image all the existing CDs and DVDs. Then I'll have both an accurate failure rate to report and a further source of backup data :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Aug 4 13:16:39 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: old stuff found In-Reply-To: <8A810F34-E63F-11D8-8569-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Jos Dreesen wrote: > (for non-dutch speakers : Fred, location ?) California. --f From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 13:23:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095820@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > Nice! Mine's NTSC and I need to build a game cable so I can plug it into > the tv card in my peecee. Wouldn't surprise me if it was dead. I have 3 (or is it 4?) and I thought all were bad and gave up for a while in trying to get any up. I'm not quite sure what the problem was, for when I did get it working it was in a rush for a Computer History Museum event, but I think it boiled down to dirty contacts on everything. I unseated and re-seated all the modules and it finally came up. There might've been some other factor that I'm unaware of but I guess I'll find out the next time I try to fire one up. BTW, when I was in Japan at the National Science Museum, they had on loan the original "Brown Box" prototype of the Odyssey. They actually had it turned on and connected to a television, and it was still working! > 'all' that circuitry can generate is 2 player objects, a ball object and > optionally a net object down the middle. Top stuff! For an under $200 video game system in 1972 it certainly was! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 13:25:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093900.081f8e38@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, John Foust wrote: > But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the > nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique > floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's > leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an > archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. Here's a paper I wrote for a presentation I have at an archaeology conference in Austria: http://www.vintage.org/content.php?id=004 The idea was Hans' to begin with and I ran with it. We discussed it to some length on the list several years back. I hope we can get back to making this a reality at some point. > It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info > such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be > able to store the label along with the archived disk image. That's described in the paper. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at usit.net Wed Aug 4 13:36:18 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: VCM References: <4111258C.78341E36@rain.org> Message-ID: <009a01c47a51$ef78af60$99100f14@mcothran1> Marvin, what do you have on there? (I have not looked for your name there) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:06 PM Subject: VCM > > Since I will be leaving for Europe (Hungary/Czech Republic) in several > weeks, the stuff I have listed on VCM will be expiring on 8/12. It would > be nice to see more names listing things too :). From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 13:30:29 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? Message-ID: While watching me struggle with the cards in my OSI C4P, someone at VCF East (I can't remember who, sorry if it was you) suggested a product (I can't remember what, I was a bit distracted) that they used to clean and lubricate contacts. I just did a little googling and there seem to be two "major" products: Stabilant 22 and DeoxIT. Anyone care to share their experiences with either of these or make another recommendation? Thanks, Bill From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 13:31:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Classic Book... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > "TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster (1976)" > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5113822019& > > rd=1 > "Ships to: United States Only." > Bah. Try Alibris or ABE (www.alibris.com or www.abebooks.com respectively). There are a few copies available for very little and I'm sure the sellers will ship to the UK. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 13:33:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: old stuff found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi all, > > I found three interesting bits of stuff today: > > 1. HeathkitH-8 > > 2. Tandy Color Computer 3 > > 3. Instructigraph code/teletype practice set > with practice tapes, keys and (tube) amp > > There's also a cute Tandy 200-in-one Electronics Lab > kit, thats way cool :) > > I am cleaning out someone's garage for them, and would > probably want to sell the above items to get them some > money. Any interest here, or should I go ePay ? Neither. http://marketplace.vintage.org :) Can you describe #3 a bit more? Sounds interesting... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 4 13:34:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: VCM Message-ID: <200408041834.LAA28622@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Marvin Johnston" > >Since I will be leaving for Europe (Hungary/Czech Republic) in several >weeks, the stuff I have listed on VCM will be expiring on 8/12. It would >be nice to see more names listing things too :). > Hi Marvin How long do you expect to be gone? I was thinking about making a weekend trip down to Santa Barbara sometime later this summer to look at the Polymorphic items you have. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 13:41:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Mike Ross wrote: > An IBM 1800 (unique, as far as I know) I am pretty sure the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datenverarbeitung (IBM Data Processing Museum) in Sindelfingen, Germany, has one. I lost all my photos from there in a hard drive crash so I can't check :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 4 13:46:56 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: VCM References: <4111258C.78341E36@rain.org> <009a01c47a51$ef78af60$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <41112F20.6213CA33@rain.org> Yes I do :). Too much stuff to list here, but take a look at http://marketplace.vintage.org/. Right now, some of the things I have listed on on the home page, but there are a lot of interesting things there posted by others as well. Thanks! Ashley Carder wrote: > > Marvin, what do you have on there? (I have not looked for your name there) > > > > > Since I will be leaving for Europe (Hungary/Czech Republic) in several > > weeks, the stuff I have listed on VCM will be expiring on 8/12. It would > > be nice to see more names listing things too :). From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 4 13:45:31 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? References: Message-ID: <012201c47a53$3822de60$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Bill wrote.... > While watching me struggle with the cards in my OSI C4P, > someone at VCF East (I can't remember who, sorry if it > was you) suggested a product (I can't remember what, I > was a bit distracted) that they used to clean and lubricate > contacts. If you're dealing with gold contacts.... use "ProGold", made by Caig. Bar none- the best. It's a bit expensive, but a can lasts a long time. Nothing comes close to this stuff. Most of the electronics stores here carry it. Any system I touch gets every gold contact deoxidized, cleaned, and lubricated with it. Incredible stuff. I spray it on a toothbrush, then brush the gold edge card connectors. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Aug 4 13:56:55 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: Message-ID: <01b701c47a54$ef50ada0$0200a8c0@geoff> Reading that suddenly made me think - do they still have chemical gardens in school ? Made with waterglass ( for preserving eggs IIRC ) and chemical crystals ? Geoff. > I'm not talking about that kind of DIY. I mean tinkering with > electronics, chemicals, etc. You know: science. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 4 14:03:05 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:52 2005 Subject: VCM References: <200408041834.LAA28622@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <411132E9.FA553960@rain.org> I will most likely be leaving about Aug 22 and returning sometime about the middle of September as soon as the World ARDF Championships are over. While I was repairing the Altair, I kept eyeing some of the Poly stuff :). But things right now are really *packed* tightly and a lot of stuff is not easy to get too ... you can check with John Lawson or Al Kossow about that :). "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > > >Since I will be leaving for Europe (Hungary/Czech Republic) in several > >weeks, the stuff I have listed on VCM will be expiring on 8/12. It would > >be nice to see more names listing things too :). > > > > Hi Marvin > How long do you expect to be gone? I was thinking > about making a weekend trip down to Santa Barbara > sometime later this summer to look at the Polymorphic > items you have. > Dwight From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 4 14:05:47 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... Message-ID: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> I do realize that this doesn't really apply here, but I know some of the electronic geniuses here can help me out... I have a little Timex clock radio. Works great, except when I want to fall asleep to the radio, I need to turn it down so as not to disturb my wife. Problem is, that the volume control isn't sensitive enough at the low volume I want. So, my thought is to put a resistor on the positive lead of the speaker, which (I think) would lower the overall volume output, and give me a wider range to adjust the volume to a quiet level. I'm just not sure what size resistor to use, or if that is even the right way to go. I haven't cracked it open yet, but I'm fairly certain it's only a single speaker in there, and it's probably a 16 ohm one at that. Am I on the right track? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 14:07:30 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? Message-ID: Jay West wrote: > If you're dealing with gold contacts.... Nope :-( The OSI fatherboard pins and the card connectors are silver(tin?) with nylon. But, Caig makes DeoxIT too, so that's a "sort of" vote in favor of it. Thanks, Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 4 14:27:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: unidentified HP loader rom Message-ID: <107901c47a59$05a82480$033310ac@kwcorp.com> What's 1816-0769? The image is on Al's site, but can't find it referenced in my docs. Anyone know offhand? Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Aug 4 14:32:44 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> References: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Clock radio speaker output reduction: Note that a good number of the smaller clock radios use higher-than-usual speaker impedances. sometimes upward of 60 ohms: saves output devices having to handle heavy currents (relatively). T'were it me, I'd obtain a 500-ohm 'trimmer' pot - the kind that is meant to go on a printed circuit board, be adjusted once, then left... 500 ohms at 1/4W would be fine - then put it series [one speaker wire goes to the wiper of the pot, the other goes to one of the 'ends' of the pot] in one of the the speaker lines (doesn't matter which one) and tweak it until you have the gain level you like. Pop the cover back on et Voila! all done. Just get a single-turn one, not the multi-turn type. If you really want to get fancy, you can put a small switch in the case, and short out the pot, thus restoring the radio to full volume if desired. If you could find a suitable volume-control / switch combination, that might also be a slick way to do this.. but I doubt seriously that a 500-ohm volume control with integral switch could be found. The usual cautions about working on/around mains-connected devices applies, if the clockradio is in fact plugged right into the wall. Cheers John PS: this presupposes you are comfortable with soldering.... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 4 14:56:45 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> the other goes >>> to one of the 'ends' of the pot] in one of the the speaker >>> lines (doesn't matter which one) Assuming it is a linear and not audio taper pot >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Lawson >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:33 PM >>> To: woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net; General Discussion: On-Topic >>> and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: OT: Simple electronics question... >>> >>> >>> >>> Clock radio speaker output reduction: >>> >>> Note that a good number of the smaller clock radios use >>> higher-than-usual speaker impedances. sometimes upward of >>> 60 ohms: saves output devices having to handle heavy >>> currents (relatively). >>> >>> T'were it me, I'd obtain a 500-ohm 'trimmer' pot - the >>> kind that is meant to go on a printed circuit board, be >>> adjusted once, then left... >>> 500 ohms at 1/4W would be fine - then put it series [one >>> speaker wire goes to the wiper of the pot, the other goes >>> to one of the 'ends' of the pot] in one of the the speaker >>> lines (doesn't matter which one) and tweak it until you >>> have the gain level you like. Pop the cover back on et Voila! >>> all done. Just get a single-turn one, not the multi-turn >>> type. If you really want to get fancy, you can put a small >>> switch in the case, and short out the pot, thus restoring >>> the radio to full volume if desired. If you could find a >>> suitable volume-control / switch combination, that might >>> also be a slick way to do this.. but I doubt seriously that >>> a 500-ohm volume control with integral switch could be found. >>> >>> The usual cautions about working on/around >>> mains-connected devices applies, if the clockradio is in >>> fact plugged right into the wall. >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> PS: this presupposes you are comfortable with soldering.... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 4 14:47:13 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091648833.26885.118.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 18:18, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure out a way that we can take everything in order to > > save it, but then offer things we're not interested in or can't > > physically store long-term to other collectors (on this list, for > > instance). I don't like the idea that if the museum doesn't take offered > > equipment that a lot of the time it will get thrown out. > > This dilemma is common amongst computer museums actually. There are > numerous problems, the least of which is insulting the donor if you do end > up selling of his/her prized computing possession as unworthy for your > collection :( Sure - it's always worth asking though. So far the only machine where the donor explicitly wants the machine to stay at the museum is the Marconi TAC (the UK's first transistor-based computer?). That's more to do with the fact that the machine's from a power station and they want to know where it is - UK newspapers could probably twist things into some form of "old computers running critical applications blah blah blah" story... I've had the occasional donor who wants proceeds to go to their favourite charity if the hardware they donate is ever sold, and naturally I have no problem with that. cheers, Jules From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 4 14:48:36 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <410E7C27.5010404@execpc.com> References: <410E7C27.5010404@execpc.com> Message-ID: <1091648902.3810.17.camel@dhcp-248209> Wang used an 8-track-type cartridge for data and/or program storage. I don't know what machine they are for. I have a couple, to use in an art project (for data storage, not some stupid collage), because they are beautiful -- 100% transparent plastic, and instead of reels, an endless loop serpentine-tangle-stacked into the case. I believe these tapes contain feature-data or fonts or whatever since they are so short, but I'm just guessing. Don't think those home tape-deck jobs with the book of matches to align the head... think radio station cart recorders. Much solider (sic) construction, though the data architecture still sucks rocks! tomj On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 10:38, Tom Hudson wrote: > To be honest, I've never heard of any other computers using 8-tracks as > storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no > rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable! > > -Tom > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I > >always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them > >but until now I've never known of any examples. > > > > > > From LAAG at PACBELL.NET Wed Aug 4 14:57:04 2004 From: LAAG at PACBELL.NET (ROBERT LAAG) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: RAREST COMPUTERS.... Message-ID: <41113F90.8040602@PACBELL.NET> ANY THOUGHTS ON HOW RARE THE COMPUTER AUTOMATION MINI COMPUTERS MIGHT BE NOW??? SOMEONE TOLD ME OF A GUY UP IN THE SEATTLE AREA WITH SOME TOO... From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Aug 4 14:57:00 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >>>> the other goes >>>> to one of the 'ends' of the pot] in one of the the speaker >>>> lines (doesn't matter which one) > > Assuming it is a linear and not audio taper pot I gotcher taper.... or is that tapir? ;} Chz John From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 4 14:57:12 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091649431.3810.21.camel@dhcp-248209> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 13:05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > (Wouldn't a hardware manual and/or programers manual help here?) > > Indeed. I've read through the Manual of Operation for the 650 and it > makes no mention or reference anywhere about any sort of timer feature at > all. But in the spirit of the times, does any hardware facility have any time-related side effect that could have been exploited to extract time from? (Besides the obvious calibrated-subroutine hack.) Or does the feature have to be explicitly a "time-keeping" hardware facility? From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 4 15:00:47 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16654.47748.816273.400044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1091475228.5590.12.camel@dhcp-248098> <16654.47748.816273.400044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1091649647.3810.24.camel@dhcp-248209> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 15:04, Paul Koning wrote: > ANd even then, another question becomes whether the time stamp is real > or a forgery, independent of what machine generated it. Absolutely -- a hardware clock is no less likely to be fudged than a software one. From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 4 15:05:33 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <20040803015601.37B3B3CE0@spies.com> References: <20040803015601.37B3B3CE0@spies.com> Message-ID: <1091649933.3810.26.camel@dhcp-248209> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 18:56, Al Kossow wrote: > MIT CADR > PARC Dorado > PARC Dicentra > National IMP-16P wow From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 4 15:05:33 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: References: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4111418D.5080900@sbcglobal.net> John Lawson wrote: > > > Clock radio speaker output reduction: > > Note that a good number of the smaller clock radios use > higher-than-usual speaker impedances. sometimes upward of 60 ohms: saves > output devices having to handle heavy currents (relatively). > > T'were it me, I'd obtain a 500-ohm 'trimmer' pot - the kind that is > meant to go on a printed circuit board, be adjusted once, then left... > 500 ohms at 1/4W would be fine - then put it series... > If you really want to get fancy, you can put a small switch in the case, > and short out the pot, thus restoring the radio to full volume if > desired... Thanks very much. This idea will do just dandy. > PS: this presupposes you are comfortable with soldering.... I'm by no means an expert, but I ain't afraid of it either. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 4 15:07:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <200408021954.08445.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200408021954.08445.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1091650039.3810.28.camel@dhcp-248209> > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" Looks like that trap actually returned to user space :-) From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 4 15:10:32 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe References: Message-ID: <018c01c47a5f$1a204220$3b406b43@66067007> I get this problem a lot and have now started turning down equipment that is too common. I got an email the other day to come pick up for free 34 complete systems (486 to P550's), had to pass. Sunday I was offered several G3 towers for free, had to pass. The list goes on and yes people do get mad at you for not taking their items. Even with a wanted list and donation policy online people seem to still want to give me newer generic stuff. But I still take items sometime just to be nice to little old ladies that call. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: Re: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure out a way that we can take everything in order to > > save it, but then offer things we're not interested in or can't > > physically store long-term to other collectors (on this list, for > > instance). I don't like the idea that if the museum doesn't take offered > > equipment that a lot of the time it will get thrown out. > > This dilemma is common amongst computer museums actually. There are > numerous problems, the least of which is insulting the donor if you do end > up selling of his/her prized computing possession as unworthy for your > collection :( > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 4 15:31:55 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? Message-ID: <200408042031.NAA28691@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bill Sudbrink" > >While watching me struggle with the cards in my OSI C4P, >someone at VCF East (I can't remember who, sorry if it >was you) suggested a product (I can't remember what, I >was a bit distracted) that they used to clean and lubricate >contacts. I just did a little googling and there seem to >be two "major" products: Stabilant 22 and DeoxIT. Anyone >care to share their experiences with either of these or make >another recommendation? > >Thanks, >Bill > Hi Bill I've only had experience with DeoxIT. It seems to work well but before these products were around, I used DC #4 ( Dowe Corning ) silicon grease and also an automotive product called SilGlyde. You shouldn't use ordinary lubricating grease because these have too high of a film strength. The silicon grease used for heat sinks is not good either because of the filler ( white stuff ). Any of these will work miracles. I use this type of product on most card edges and ROM sockets. I've even been know to use it on boards with all socketed parts. If you look back in the archieves you'll see that I've talked about this stuff before. Dwight From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 19:29:05 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001201c479ba$0c5dac40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > > > RML 480Z metal-cased system > > > > And one of those _somewhere_... > > I'm not sure how many ended up with the metal cases; a > guesstimate would > be somewhere above 50 though. Only 50 worldwide? Why didn't you say a year os so ago - then I'd have asked for the one stuffed in a cupboard at my daughter's school :-) We are talking about a 480Z in a black metal case (and black keys) that is otherwise identical to the beige plastic case variant that I already have? > But then 380Z's were common as > muck at one > time and all seem to have vanished too. Am I being greedy in having two then? I bet there are many of these stuffed in school cupboards up and down the land. > I found an RML advert in an old comp magazine at Bletchley of > a pair of > cream 480Z's along with a *white* 380Z at the weekend. I'm assuming it > was a mock-up as I've never known of a white 380Z before. I've never seen a 380Z that was anything other than black. That's the way they should be ... otherwise you might miss the white button on the front :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 4 16:12:16 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <1091648902.3810.17.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: > I have a couple, to use in an art project (for data storage, not some > stupid collage), because they are beautiful -- 100% transparent plastic, > and instead of reels, an endless loop serpentine-tangle-stacked into the That reminds me of something similar I've seen done on a much larger scale. The Conductron-Missouri 727 flight simulator I used to work on used a Varian 610 for the visual system (Vital I is what I think the image generator system was named) on the sim. It could display 1024 pixels at once. Scene data consisted of the runway and taxiway outlines plus relevant radio navigation data. It was all stored on a paper tape "cartridge" that was hand made. It was roughly four feet tall and about 30 inches wide. The cartridge sides were plywood on the back and clear plexiglass on the front. The paper tape was tangle-stacked like you described above. It was pretty neat to watch. There was a notch at the top that would accomodate the tape reader head and it was otherwise fully enclosed. I can't check right now, but I may have a picture of it at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/BehindTheScenes The 727 (complete and working) went for $1000 at a bankruptcy auction last summer. :( g. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 4 16:03:42 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> <1091610936.11076.201665434@webmail.messagingengine.com> <002501c47a35$6136c050$3b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <008b01c47a66$861d5a60$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) > I had to just toss 20+ SE/30's and some IIfx's (2 or 3). How close are you > to Houston as there are several of the machines on your list that come up > all the time around here? I hope you checked those IIfx machines for ram before you tossed them, they are proprietary (64 pin) and 16mb ones are rare. Heck I could use another set of 4 x 4mb simms if you are just throwing them away. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 4 16:06:39 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe References: <018c01c47a5f$1a204220$3b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <009401c47a66$ef7aecc0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: Re: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe > I get this problem a lot and have now started turning down equipment that is > too common. I got an email the other day to come pick up for free 34 > complete systems (486 to P550's), had to pass. Sunday I was offered several > G3 towers for free, had to pass. The list goes on and yes people do get mad > at you for not taking their items. Even with a wanted list and donation > policy online people seem to still want to give me newer generic stuff. But > I still take items sometime just to be nice to little old ladies that call. Have you tried steering the people with P2's or better to charities that redistribute those machines to needy families? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 4 16:19:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <001201c479ba$0c5dac40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001201c479ba$0c5dac40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1091654362.26885.155.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 00:29, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > > RML 480Z metal-cased system > > > > > > And one of those _somewhere_... > > > > I'm not sure how many ended up with the metal cases; a > > guesstimate would > > be somewhere above 50 though. > > Only 50 worldwide? Why didn't you say a year os so ago - > then I'd have asked for the one stuffed in a cupboard > at my daughter's school :-) Heh, could be thousands though for all I know though. They just seem *very* uncommon in the UK at least (mind you, so do the plastic-cased ones for that matter) > We are talking about a 480Z > in a black metal case (and black keys) that is otherwise > identical to the beige plastic case variant that > I already have? Yep, that's the critter. Any chance there's still software lurking at the school? Not much RML software seems to have survived which is a shame. > > But then 380Z's were common as > > muck at one > > time and all seem to have vanished too. > > Am I being greedy in having two then? :-) Actually I've got a couple too, if you count the one running as the network server. (and 8 480Z's, although only half of them currently work and I've promised a few to people just to cut down on space) By the way, we could do with more 380Z keyboards at Bletchley if you ever find any. We've got seven or eight 380Z's but only two keyboards to go with them all! There's the dual 8" floppy drive unit at Bletchley which I should photograph sometime. There can't be many of those about. > I bet there are > many of these stuffed in school cupboards up and down > the land. I don't know though, probably been thrown out long ago. I'd certainly like to find network OS software for my network server as it's a dead duck once the hard drive blows up... > I've never seen a 380Z that was anything other than > black. That's the way they should be ... otherwise > you might miss the white button on the front :-) True. :-) They look pretty good in white too though to be honest! cheers Jules From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 4 16:22:46 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe References: <018c01c47a5f$1a204220$3b406b43@66067007> <009401c47a66$ef7aecc0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <021d01c47a69$311cc3e0$3b406b43@66067007> Yes I tell them about local churches or groups that are looking for computers. I even pass the information on to the churches to follow-up on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:06 PM Subject: Re: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keys" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:10 PM > Subject: Re: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe > > > > I get this problem a lot and have now started turning down equipment that > is > > too common. I got an email the other day to come pick up for free 34 > > complete systems (486 to P550's), had to pass. Sunday I was offered > several > > G3 towers for free, had to pass. The list goes on and yes people do get > mad > > at you for not taking their items. Even with a wanted list and donation > > policy online people seem to still want to give me newer generic stuff. > But > > I still take items sometime just to be nice to little old ladies that > call. > > Have you tried steering the people with P2's or better to charities that > redistribute those machines to needy families? > > > > From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Aug 4 16:22:35 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: <01b701c47a54$ef50ada0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <040101c47a69$392fb880$0200a8c0@geoff> I first made a chemical garden in school at age 9 and it is real science ! See : http://www.lorentz.leidenuniv.nl/~saarloos/Papers/chemicalgarden.pdf Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Electronics Barn closing > Reading that suddenly made me think - do they still have chemical gardens in > school ? > Made with waterglass ( for preserving eggs IIRC ) and chemical crystals ? > > Geoff. > > > > I'm not talking about that kind of DIY. I mean tinkering with > > electronics, chemicals, etc. You know: science. > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 4 16:47:59 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <4111598F.E01FFBFB@rain.org> Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many they might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue metal case similar in color to the IMSAI, but I thought it was something someone just put together. I talked to the person a few days ago that I got it from, and he couldn't remember any details except that it came from a swap meet many years ago. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 4 16:50:53 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? References: <1091649431.3810.21.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: <16657.23101.882505.249290@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 13:05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > (Wouldn't a hardware manual and/or programers manual help here?) >> >> Indeed. I've read through the Manual of Operation for the 650 and >> it makes no mention or reference anywhere about any sort of timer >> feature at all. Tom> But in the spirit of the times, does any hardware facility have Tom> any time-related side effect that could have been exploited to Tom> extract time from? (Besides the obvious calibrated-subroutine Tom> hack.) Or does the feature have to be explicitly a Tom> "time-keeping" hardware facility? Either would serve. But a software mechanism would be really unlikely in practice without something resembling a real OS, with an interrupt mechanism or some other way to do things periodically (as on the CDC 6000 series). As far as I can tell, the 650 had no such thing -- your application was the only thing running. In theory you could keeep track of time even though your code lives on a drum -- but in reality, how likely is an application programmer, especially a business data processing programmer, to want to deal with that kind of esoterica? paul From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 4 16:56:17 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon References: <4111598F.E01FFBFB@rain.org> Message-ID: <024601c47a6d$e4435b60$3b406b43@66067007> Yes it's real, I missed one St. Louis at a thrift for $12 awhile back. (I was just passing through and was not in my own car) :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon > > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard > case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a > computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many they > might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue metal case similar > in color to the IMSAI, but I thought it was something someone just put > together. I talked to the person a few days ago that I got it from, and > he couldn't remember any details except that it came from a swap meet > many years ago. > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Aug 4 17:02:18 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay References: <410E7C27.5010404@execpc.com> <1091648902.3810.17.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: <000601c47a6e$b5f3edf0$7966a8c0@wrickben02> The 8-Track Wang cartridges were not used (to my knowledge) on computers, but on the Wang 380 Programmer for the Wang 300-Series electronic calculators. The 380 was a keyboard which plugged into a Wang 300-series electronics package that provided a means by which programs could be recorded step at a time onto the 8-Track tape cartridge. Then, the programs could be played back. The drive was incremental, meaning that it'd advance a little bit for each step of the program. As I recall, the advance mechanism wasn't a motor, but rather a solenoid activated ratchet mechanism that could step the tape along a bit at a time. I believe that the drive could step both forward and backward, allowing looping to occur (albeit rather slowly). A few folks that I've been in contact with have managed to find Wang 380's (Alas, I don't have one yet), and have not been able to find the correct cartridges, but have found that taking old music 8-Track cartridges and cutting down the length of the tape (a long tape won't advance properly) will work as a suitable replacement. You can see some pix of the Wang 380 at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-wang380.html -Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:48 PM Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay > Wang used an 8-track-type cartridge for data and/or program storage. I > don't know what machine they are for. > > I have a couple, to use in an art project (for data storage, not some > stupid collage), because they are beautiful -- 100% transparent plastic, > and instead of reels, an endless loop serpentine-tangle-stacked into the > case. I believe these tapes contain feature-data or fonts or whatever > since they are so short, but I'm just guessing. > > Don't think those home tape-deck jobs with the book of matches to align > the head... think radio station cart recorders. Much solider (sic) > construction, though the data architecture still sucks rocks! > > tomj > > On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 10:38, Tom Hudson wrote: > > To be honest, I've never heard of any other computers using 8-tracks as > > storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no > > rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable! > > > > -Tom > > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > >What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I > > >always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them > > >but until now I've never known of any examples. > > > > > > > > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 4 17:05:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4111598F.E01FFBFB@rain.org> References: <4111598F.E01FFBFB@rain.org> Message-ID: <1091657112.26885.164.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 21:47, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard > case for the Northstar Horizon. The one I unearthed at Bletchley last week was in a powder blue metal case. Certainly looked professional rather than something that someone had hacked together in their garage... cheers, Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 4 17:03:40 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> References: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200408042209.SAA19874@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a little Timex clock radio. Works great, except when I want > to fall asleep to the radio, I need to turn it down so as not to > disturb my wife. Problem is, that the volume control isn't sensitive > enough at the low volume I want. > So, my thought is to put a resistor on the positive lead of the > speaker, which (I think) would lower the overall volume output, and > give me a wider range to adjust the volume to a quiet level. Well, speakers mostly don't have polarity on their leads. At least not voice-coil speakers such as you find in "little clock radio"s. (Switching the leads will reverse the direction of voice-coil movement for a given current - but that difference is approximately inaudible.) You could do that. But you might be better off frobbing the volume-control circuit itself. The volume control is projbably a pot with one side grounded, one side driven, and the variable tap taken to drive further electronics. Inserting a resistor in series with the non-grounded side will do something like what you want. Either of these approaches runs a risk of creating impedance mismatches between the driving circuit and the driven thing. Which way introduces less distortion depends on the circuit - though I must confess that I would expect the distortion introduced by this mismatch to be far less than you get from other causes in most clock radios. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 4 17:10:32 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <200408042210.PAA28784@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I have one that is in a beige metal case. Yes, they did do metal case ones. These are not as desired as the wood ones but more practical. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard >case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a >computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many they >might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue metal case similar >in color to the IMSAI, but I thought it was something someone just put >together. I talked to the person a few days ago that I got it from, and >he couldn't remember any details except that it came from a swap meet >many years ago. > From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Wed Aug 4 17:25:28 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <002501c47a35$6136c050$3b406b43@66067007> References: <1091532322.25452.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040804013334.GA680@bos7.spole.gov> <1091610936.11076.201665434@webmail.messagingengine.com> <002501c47a35$6136c050$3b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <1091658328.26151.201716422@webmail.messagingengine.com> Well, I'm not as close to Houston as I used to be. I'm clear over in Hawaii now. On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:11:52 -0500, "Keys" said: > I had to just toss 20+ SE/30's and some IIfx's (2 or 3). How close are > you > to Houston as there are several of the machines on your list that come up > all the time around here? From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 5 14:08:46 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: References: <5A1CCBB4-E50A-11D8-99FF-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 2, 4 10:02:43 pm Message-ID: <20040804230751.SLGL26030.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > The only problem with working on surface mount stuff is that people think > it's hard. It's not. Correct, SMD stuff is not that "impassable" just takes lot of care and steady hands. Med or fine tip with temperate controlled solder iron, lot of quality flux in a tube, wick and best quality solder. > As for special tools, yes, a hot-air soldering tool is useful (but one of > those butane-powered irons with the hot air tip is OK for repairs). But I > just used a normal soldering iron with the finest bit made, and take a > little care. I've done PQFPs, SOICs, transistors, passives, etc with no > problem at all. I have done some small diffcult to remove SMD (especially dual inline SOJ) taken off with hot air gun like memory IC off the SIMMs or off the motherboard. > Now BGAs are a problem (I wonder what the cheapest setup for doing those > is -- I've seen a protoryping rig, but it's about \pounds 5000). But > components where you can get to each individual connection are no trouble > at all. Somebody who had success with BGA and hot air gun, I find I couldn't melt all the solder if the gullwing style IC is larger than .5" square because of heat conduction became too much to keep all the solder molten. So I'm curious how you got around to to get all the balls on the BGA melted with that? Also not blowing the BGA off like leaf in a wind? Cheers, Wizard > > -tony > From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 18:18:43 2004 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <200408042130.i74LSpbh009949@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040804231843.44885.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> Not "really" meant to be a computer, but I have a working HP2644A (with DC100a tapes) that uses an 8008 microprocessor (the first thing HP made with an "outside" CPU, I think). I went nuts on it and rebuilt the moldy CRT. The only other one I know of is at the Univ of Stuttgart museum. You can hack this terminal into playing pong on the 8008. Classic computers need classic peripherals - that's why I've been working on paper tape readers. ===== -Steve Loboyko Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie: "When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day." Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 4 18:21:08 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: BGAs was Re: Electronics Barn closing References: <5A1CCBB4-E50A-11D8-99FF-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 2, 4 10:02:43 pm <20040804230751.SLGL26030.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Message-ID: <41116F64.4A9971CC@rain.org> jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > So I'm curious how you got around to to get all the balls on the > BGA melted with that? Also not blowing the BGA off like leaf in a > wind? Another way to reflow SM boards is to use an iron set high enough to melt the solder and get it to flow. While I've never worked with BGAs, I am curious if the iron would do the same thing and get things hot enough to just lift the BGAs off? From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 4 18:23:31 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon References: <200408042210.PAA28784@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <41116FF3.47832DCC@rain.org> I would think the metal ones are rarer than the wooden case models, especially since I had never seen one prior to this one. I can see the Ebay ad now "*REALLY RARE* L@@K Metal Case Northstar Horizon L@@K again" :). "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > I have one that is in a beige metal case. > Yes, they did do metal case ones. These are > not as desired as the wood ones but more > practical. > Dwight > > >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > > > > >Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard > >case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a > >computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many they > >might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue metal case similar > >in color to the IMSAI, but I thought it was something someone just put > >together. I talked to the person a few days ago that I got it from, and > >he couldn't remember any details except that it came from a swap meet > >many years ago. > > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Aug 4 18:27:27 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <20040804230751.SLGL26030.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > The only problem with working on surface mount stuff is that people think > > it's hard. It's not. > > Correct, SMD stuff is not that "impassable" just takes lot of care > and steady hands. Med or fine tip with temperate controlled solder > iron, lot of quality flux in a tube, wick and best quality solder. > > > As for special tools, yes, a hot-air soldering tool is useful (but one of > > those butane-powered irons with the hot air tip is OK for repairs). But I > > just used a normal soldering iron with the finest bit made, and take a > > little care. I've done PQFPs, SOICs, transistors, passives, etc with no > > problem at all. > > I have done some small diffcult to remove SMD (especially dual inline > SOJ) taken off with hot air gun like memory IC off the SIMMs or off > the motherboard. > > > Now BGAs are a problem (I wonder what the cheapest setup for doing those > > is -- I've seen a protoryping rig, but it's about \pounds 5000). But > > components where you can get to each individual connection are no trouble > > at all. > > Somebody who had success with BGA and hot air gun, I find I couldn't > melt all the solder if the gullwing style IC is larger than .5" > square because of heat conduction became too much to keep all the > solder molten. > > So I'm curious how you got around to to get all the balls on the > BGA melted with that? Also not blowing the BGA off like leaf in a > wind? Heat from the bottom of the card.... > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > > > > -tony > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 18:31:25 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804182940.086770f0@pc> At 10:42 AM 8/4/2004, you wrote: >Depending on the case/safe/cabinet, it may actually help quite a bit. >They are generally rated to 1200 degrees or higher for 45 minutes or >longer. If you have a 1200 degree fire for 45 minutes, then your house is >a total loss. Some of the CD longevity articles talk about this... those safes are rated to preserve paper. The char or combustion temperature for paper is far higher than the highest temperature that a CD-R will survive. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 18:56:24 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe In-Reply-To: <018c01c47a5f$1a204220$3b406b43@66067007> References: <018c01c47a5f$1a204220$3b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804185458.08151a00@pc> At 03:10 PM 8/4/2004, "Keys" wrote: >I get this problem a lot and have now started turning down equipment that is >too common. I got an email the other day to come pick up for free 34 >complete systems (486 to P550's), had to pass. Sunday I was offered several >G3 towers for free, had to pass. The list goes on and yes people do get mad >at you for not taking their items. Even with a wanted list and donation >policy online people seem to still want to give me newer generic stuff. But >I still take items sometime just to be nice to little old ladies that call. If you don't want the stuff, do you pass along the tips to this mailing list or any other computer rescue list? - John From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 4 19:00:34 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <3408109.1091664035417.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> they indeed produced both a beige and blue metal case. I have one of each as well as a wooden one. I iwll have to dig into my issues of Byte to check into N* ads for more info when I get back to Seattle again. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Johnston Sent: Aug 4, 2004 5:47 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many they might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue metal case similar in color to the IMSAI, but I thought it was something someone just put together. I talked to the person a few days ago that I got it from, and he couldn't remember any details except that it came from a swap meet many years ago. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:07:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history In-Reply-To: <20040804042705.8106E2C002@pail.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Aug 3, 4 09:27:05 pm Message-ID: > The 8550 and 8560 (I miswrote it as 8260) did use LSI-11's. The 8550 I > think ran DOS-50 (I think it only had two 8" floppy drives), and > the 8560 was the one that ran UNIX, although I'm positive > the OS wasn't UTek. It was more an AT&T System-III variant (as T-Nix? I seem to remember that's what the manuals that came with mine said, anyway (I have one of each flavour, I really must dig them out and get them fired up...) > opposed to UTek, which had its roots in 4.2bsd). I can't > remember what they called it, but it wasn't UTek. I used > to have an 8560 with single Qume DT-8 floppy drive and the Micropolis > 40MB 8" drive. Thing sounded like a small jet plane at takeoff when It's a Micropolis 1200-series drive, also used in the PERQ 2T1. I have service information (_real_ service information) for the drive, and a homebrew test box that plugs into the 34 pin header on the logic board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:13:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: seeking info on ASR-33 interface board In-Reply-To: <411004D6.20993.61F5BA8F@localhost> from "Brian Knittel" at Aug 3, 4 09:34:14 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Y'all, > > I just popped open an ASR-33 I picked up a few weeks ago. The tty ran > OK in local mode in the store where I found it but in shipment to me > something happened, it now free runs (runs free?). Maybe it's a loose > connector. Did you fit the transist screw underneath to clamp the 'typing unit' to the base pan? If not, then I'll bet the typing unit has jumped off its rubber mountings. If you're lucky, all this will have done is caused the kyboard linkage to get stuck in the key-pressed state, and refitting the typing unit properly will get the machine back to rights. If you're unlucky, you'll have mangled some of the linkages in this area (front right of the typing unit, and the same area of the keyboard) and you'll have some sorting out to do. > In the electronics bay on the right hand side, there's a printed > circuit board that runs from front to back. It's definitely a power > supply, and probably also an RS-232 to current loop converter. In The basic typing unit has a bare solenoid for the RX input. The Teletpye priveate line call control unitinterfaces this to a 20mA or 60mA loop. Your board _might_ be an RS232 converter, it might be a current loop converter, it might be almost anything. I cna't believe it's that complicated, so you could trace out schematics. > Was it common to produce custom internals like this for teletypes? Not that common, but not unheard-of either. One of my ASR33s has Data Dynamics electronics (and a Data Dynamics all-metal cabinet, with light bulbs to illumnate the printed paper, etc) which provides both current loop and RS232 interfaces (with the right cable). Of course many companies fitted reader-control relays (DEC, Intel, HP, etc), but generally those were an add-on to the Teletype private line call control unit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:19:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben franchuk" at Aug 4, 4 00:27:52 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > It's easier to preserve the manuals -- if they exist -- though. > > Some times you must do more than that even. Alot of the newer > chips are clones of earlyer chips and the doc's are sparce so you must > gp to the orginal docs for quirks and bugs. Surely I am not the only person who not only keeps every databook I've ever owned, but also buys old databooks (I think I have a pre-1970 Motorola IC databook somewhere -- back then one book covered all ICs ;-)). Databooks are _esssential_ if you want to understnad or repair the hardware! And sometimes a machine's service manual will assume you've got the docs for an older model. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:30:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Donation policy was Re: CHM gripe In-Reply-To: <4110C0DB.1020109@citem.org> from "Hans B PUFAL" at Aug 4, 4 12:56:27 pm Message-ID: > One problem with this decision making process is that you might well > discard valuable items without knowing. Here at ACONIT we have a general > policy of always taking donations but with the proviso that we might I've found this to be a good policy even for a private collection. Sure you get a lot of no-name PC clones that way, but you don't miss out on the insteresting stuff, and people tend to rememebr you when they have something else to get rid of, which might be of more interest. And anyway, PCs are a useful source of disk drives, PSU parts, chips, etc... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:41:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> from "David Woyciesjes" at Aug 4, 4 03:05:47 pm Message-ID: > > I do realize that this doesn't really apply here, but I know some of > the electronic geniuses here can help me out... Not a genius, but anyway... > I have a little Timex clock radio. Works great, except when I want to > fall asleep to the radio, I need to turn it down so as not to disturb my > wife. Problem is, that the volume control isn't sensitive enough at the > low volume I want. > So, my thought is to put a resistor on the positive lead of the > speaker, which (I think) would lower the overall volume output, and give > me a wider range to adjust the volume to a quiet level. That would work, I think, but what I'd do is find the 'top' end of the volume control pot (not the silder, not the end that goes to earth), and stick a resistor in series with it. Something of about the same resistance as the control would probably be a good start. > I'm just not sure what size resistor to use, or if that is even the > right way to go. I haven't cracked it open yet, but I'm fairly certain > it's only a single speaker in there, and it's probably a 16 ohm one at > that. Am I on the right track? More likely to be 8 ohms. If you want to try a resistor in series with the speaker (and it doens't matter which wire you insert it in, of course), try something of a few 10's of ohms to start with. [YEs, I know that mis-natching an output stage to its load can be a bad thing, but I don't think it'll do any harm at all in this sort of device] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:44:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 4, 4 03:56:45 pm Message-ID: > > >>> the other goes > >>> to one of the 'ends' of the pot] in one of the the speaker > >>> lines (doesn't matter which one) > > Assuming it is a linear and not audio taper pot And have you ever seen a log-tape single-turn preset? Because I haven't (and I don't recall ever seeing them in catalogues) :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:48:37 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:53 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4111598F.E01FFBFB@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Aug 4, 4 02:47:59 pm Message-ID: > > > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard > case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a What's the standard case? Mine is in an all-metal case, the top is cream-painted, the bottom looks to be aluminium. -tony From dmhills at attglobal.net Wed Aug 4 20:16:27 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Mike Ross" wrote: >An IBM 1800 (unique, as far as I know) I used to maintain a System/7, the successor to the 1800. It ran a prototype milk powder plant at the Dairy Research Institute. They used the S/7 to monitor and adjust the plant parameters to get the desired result, then built the production plants with the parameters "hard wired". Is anyone on this list at the Massey campus in Palmerston North who can say whether the DRI plant still exists? For that matter, Massey used to have a 1620 and an 1130 that I also maintained. I'll bet they've long gone. >Two IBM System/32s (again unique - know of no others in collections) MOTAT, Auckland NZ, has/had one, donated by IBM back when they were still in use at some customers. :-) I'll take a look next time I'm up there. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Aug 4 20:44:32 2004 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have a bottle of Deoxit right here. Don't use it often, but it beats using an eraser to clean contacts. A 4 oz bottle will last a lifetime (if you don't spill it.) Jim On Wednesday, Aug 4, 2004, at 11:30 America/Vancouver, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > While watching me struggle with the cards in my OSI C4P, > someone at VCF East (I can't remember who, sorry if it > was you) suggested a product (I can't remember what, I > was a bit distracted) that they used to clean and lubricate > contacts. I just did a little googling and there seem to > be two "major" products: Stabilant 22 and DeoxIT. Anyone > care to share their experiences with either of these or make > another recommendation? > > Thanks, > Bill > > Leopards break into the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the sacrificial pitchers; this is repeated over and over again; finally it can be calculated in advance, and it becomes part of the ceremony. -Kafka From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 20:46:42 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <41116FF3.47832DCC@rain.org> Message-ID: Marvin Johnston wrote: > I would think the metal ones are rarer than the wooden case models, > especially since I had never seen one prior to this one. I can see the > Ebay ad now "*REALLY RARE* L@@K Metal Case Northstar Horizon L@@K again" > :). I seem to recall seeing several metal cased (all beige, never blue) N*s on ebay over the last couple of years. Several wood cased as well. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 20:47:52 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the > > standard case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm > > What's the standard case? Mine is in an all-metal case, the > top is cream-painted, the bottom looks to be aluminium. The one I usually think of (I guess that I have seen the most often) has a walnut stained plywood case. Look at my pictures from the recent VCF East. Back on the "rarest..." thread, does anyone have a machine actually badged "Kentucky Fried Computers" (Northstar's original name)? From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 21:33:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: RAREST COMPUTERS.... In-Reply-To: <41113F90.8040602@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ROBERT LAAG wrote: > ANY THOUGHTS ON HOW RARE THE COMPUTER AUTOMATION MINI COMPUTERS MIGHT BE > NOW??? > SOMEONE TOLD ME OF A GUY UP IN THE SEATTLE AREA WITH SOME TOO... Hi Robert! They are definitely on the rarer end of the scale. You'll remember that I got mine from you a few years back. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From oldcomp at cox.net Wed Aug 4 20:19:37 2004 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <20040804231843.44885.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040804231843.44885.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41118B29.5040201@cox.net> My rarest machines and peripherals are: Mark-8 Minicomputer Digital Group TVT (designed for the Mark-8) Digital Group Z80 system Digital Group 6800 system Digital Group 6502 system Digital Group 6501 system Digital Group Mini Bytemaster, Z80 Kim-1 with early ROR and indirect jump challenged 6502 micro chip A few can be seen at my soon to be updated site: http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/my_collection.htm -Bryan From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 21:35:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091649431.3810.21.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 13:05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > (Wouldn't a hardware manual and/or programers manual help here?) > > > > Indeed. I've read through the Manual of Operation for the 650 and it > > makes no mention or reference anywhere about any sort of timer feature at > > all. > > But in the spirit of the times, does any hardware facility have any > time-related side effect that could have been exploited to extract time > from? (Besides the obvious calibrated-subroutine hack.) Or does the > feature have to be explicitly a "time-keeping" hardware facility? In this case it would have to explicitly be a hardware facility. If no documentation turns up to show that there was such a device, the onus will then be on the defense to prove that the 650 in question *did* have a hardware time-keeping facility. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 21:44:53 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4111598F.E01FFBFB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the standard > case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they did put out a > computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many they > might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue metal case similar > in color to the IMSAI, but I thought it was something someone just put > together. I talked to the person a few days ago that I got it from, and > he couldn't remember any details except that it came from a swap meet > many years ago. I have one in a yellowish metal case. I have no idea how many were produced in a metal case. Probably not too many. Horizons seem to be the most common vintage S-100 machine. I've got several (most in the wooden enclosure). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 4 21:48:15 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: looking for tek manuals Message-ID: <003301c47a96$a899c7b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Anyone have installation and service manuals for the following in electronic format? Tektronix 455 S/N: B055329 Tektronix 465 S/N: B306547 Thanks in advance! Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 4 21:47:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <000601c47a6e$b5f3edf0$7966a8c0@wrickben02> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Rick Bensene wrote: > A few folks that I've been in contact with have managed to find Wang > 380's (Alas, I don't have one yet), and have not been able to find the > correct cartridges, but have found that taking old music 8-Track > cartridges and cutting down the length of the tape (a long tape won't > advance properly) will work as a suitable replacement. > > You can see some pix of the Wang 380 at > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-wang380.html Ah yes, I've got one. Mine is in about as ratty shape as the one in the first photo. I'm not sure if I've got tapes for it though. I'll have to check through some boxes as I just might have one or two. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Aug 4 21:54:53 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <41118B29.5040201@cox.net> References: <20040804231843.44885.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> <41118B29.5040201@cox.net> Message-ID: <20040805025453.GA16788@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 06:19:37PM -0700, Bryan Blackburn wrote: > My rarest machines and peripherals are: . . . > Kim-1 with early ROR and indirect jump challenged 6502 micro chip I remember references to those flaws in docs I was reading c. 1978 when I first started learning 6502 machine language (not assembly... I was entering the code into the computer in hex). Never seen one of the defective chips. What's the date code on it? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 05-Aug-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.8 F (-64.9 C) Windchill -129.8 F (-89.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.4 kts Grid 027 Barometer 673 mb (10892. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Aug 4 21:56:29 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: ****Re: old stuff found References: Message-ID: <004801c47a97$ce619ad0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Fred how many keys with the instrutograph? are they brass on wood bases or? also what is with the h8*? both of these are interesting ed sharpe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:27 AM Subject: old stuff found > Hi all, > > I found three interesting bits of stuff today: > > 1. HeathkitH-8 > > 2. Tandy Color Computer 3 > > 3. Instructigraph code/teletype practice set > with practice tapes, keys and (tube) amp > > There's also a cute Tandy 200-in-one Electronics Lab > kit, thats way cool :) > > I am cleaning out someone's garage for them, and would > probably want to sell the above items to get them some > money. Any interest here, or should I go ePay ? > > Cheers, > > Fred > > > From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Aug 4 21:53:22 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: bah! (spam) Message-ID: Hiyall, Bah.. where's spam when ya need it. Waiting for some to arrive to test the new antispam stuff... I have been getting a growing number of spam messages through this address, which is only used for this list, so there have to be spam-harvesters out there. Jay, could you enable a monthly (or longer) "please verify your address" email system where address get dropped off the list of they dont reply, meaning, a human is using it? Thanks, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 4 23:16:20 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: looking for tek manuals In-Reply-To: <003301c47a96$a899c7b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Jay, A felow member gave me this link when I needed info on my Tek 475a. Sorry I don't have time to do a searhc of the site for the manuals you ware looking for. But I hope this helps, let me know . David [ps I also sent you a private e-mail on another issue] >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:48 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: looking for tek manuals >>> >>> Anyone have installation and service manuals for the >>> following in electronic format? >>> >>> Tektronix 455 S/N: B055329 >>> >>> Tektronix 465 S/N: B306547 >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> Jay West >>> From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Aug 4 23:41:28 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20040804053656.GA20469@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <007801c47aa6$7963a5f0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Heh Heh! you run a 35 drive train fast enough to decode 30 baud the thing WILL explode! it is 110 baud... just a heavier duty unit than the 33. the 37 or the 38 was a 130+ wide carriage as I remember but built flimsy as a 33.. had two in my younger years wish I still had them! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) > On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 05:08:17AM +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Rick Bensene wrote: > > > > > Teletype ASR-33 or ASR-35: Maybe someday. > > > > What's the difference between ASR-33 and ASR-35? > > Superficially, the ASR-33 is 110 bps (10 cps), the ASR-35 is 300 bps > (30 cps). Internally, the ASR-35 is much more solid in its construction > and better able to handle 24/7 operation. > > -ethan > > ObTrivia: When I was working at CompuServe, my desktop backdrop was a > picture of a KA-10 w/ASR-35 console. > > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Aug-2004 05:30 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.0 F (-57.3 C) Windchill -113.6 F (-80.90 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 15.6 kts Grid 041 Barometer 665.7 mb (11172. ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > From go at ao.com Wed Aug 4 23:49:40 2004 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <0407291544.AA06131@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0407291544.AA06131@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4111BC64.1050205@ao.com> Ok. I admit I've been away a few days and haven't read the ENTIRE thread on this topic, but I thought I'd at least weigh-in with a "sort of" example of a mid-60s time-of-day clock on a mainframe machine. The good old Control Data 3300 had a 24 bit millisecond counter that was used (at least on our operating system) as a pseudo real-time clock. With 24 bits, you could count up to about 16k seconds before overflow. Normal use of the counter was to program future timer events (another register was set to the count at which you wanted an interrupt.) Rather than just resetting the count register for every interrupt and programming the length in the limit register, the OS would read the current count, add the desired delay and write THAT value to the limit. Thus, the counter would count monotonically. For our purpose, we did reset counter every hour, so the "real time clock" register (which was readable by any user process) counted accumulated milliseconds in the current hour. Another read-only register was used to hold the "date" (packed in good-old non-y2k compliant form,) with a 5 bit field reserved for "hour of the day." One advantage of this "free running" counter as a time-of-day clock was that in the unlikely of a system hang where interrupts might not get serviced for a while (the only recoverable one of these was a memory parity error on "pure" system code, where a checksum was recalculated to recover the "lost" location of the parity error) and that could take a few milliseconds. Never fear, the RTC register was counting away and wouldn't lose time. Even if it happened to count beyond an hour, it would be caught before the next user task was scheduled and the date register would be recalculated. This is basically what was done on the VAX series, but they had the luxury of LOTS MORE BITS and a faster counter. -Gary From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 4 23:58:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <007801c47aa6$7963a5f0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: >>> Heh Heh! you run a 35 drive train fast enough to decode >>> 30 baud the thing WILL explode! Silly typos!!! 1) At 30 Baud [aka 3 or 2.727272 cps] it could take up to 18 minutes to print a page! 2) At the original post of 300 Baud [30 or 27.2 cps] the mechanisim WOULD fly apear, but make a cool animated video! Wondering what a TTY [really 110 baud] would look like if the video was sped up to run at a "modern" speed... Wondering if I have had just WAY too much cafine and need to go crash.... From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 01:29:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > The one I usually think of (I guess that I have seen the most > often) has a walnut stained plywood case. Look at my pictures > from the recent VCF East. Back on the "rarest..." thread, does > anyone have a machine actually badged "Kentucky Fried Computers" > (Northstar's original name)? Good question. I think Fred would know if they got sued before they shipped their first unit or after. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 01:32:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: bah! (spam) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Bah.. where's spam when ya need it. Waiting for some to arrive > to test the new antispam stuff... No problem, I'll subscribe you to a couple dozen porn sites and you'll be off and running in no time! > I have been getting a growing number of spam messages through > this address, which is only used for this list, so there have > to be spam-harvesters out there. Jay, could you enable a > monthly (or longer) "please verify your address" email system > where address get dropped off the list of they dont reply, > meaning, a human is using it? Good idea. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jimmydevice at verizon.net Thu Aug 5 01:39:32 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: BGAs was Re: Electronics Barn closing In-Reply-To: <41116F64.4A9971CC@rain.org> References: <5A1CCBB4-E50A-11D8-99FF-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 2, 4 10:02:43 pm <20040804230751.SLGL26030.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> <41116F64.4A9971CC@rain.org> Message-ID: <4111D624.1050601@verizon.net> Marvin Johnston wrote: >jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > >>So I'm curious how you got around to to get all the balls on the >>BGA melted with that? Also not blowing the BGA off like leaf in a >>wind? >> >> > >Another way to reflow SM boards is to use an iron set high enough to >melt the solder and get it to flow. While I've never worked with BGAs, I >am curious if the iron would do the same thing and get things hot enough >to just lift the BGAs off? > > > I work for a rather large semi mfg. and out tech moves a lot BGA paxkages on and off out test systems. I would hazzard a guess, observing the problems we have had with 900+ bunp BGA packages that it would be nearly impossible to replace a BGA with equipment available to this group. But OTHO, this group can be rather creative. Some of the problems seen are package creep from un-cured packages, and bad allignment, even with computer controlled, robotic, microscopic placement soldering machines. Jim Davis. I would kill to own the gear in the HW lab. From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Aug 5 01:44:59 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: bah! (spam) Message-ID: <9.2fe17790.2e43316b@aol.com> I get no spam on this email list. Best run list I have ever seen. I use this email address only for this list. Actually that is not entirely true. Usually I get about one spam a week but lately there have been none. I don't think spam comes through this list. Paxton Astoria, OR From jimmydevice at verizon.net Thu Aug 5 01:43:54 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: RAREST COMPUTERS.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4111D72A.8000401@verizon.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ROBERT LAAG wrote: > > > >>ANY THOUGHTS ON HOW RARE THE COMPUTER AUTOMATION MINI COMPUTERS MIGHT BE >>NOW??? >> SOMEONE TOLD ME OF A GUY UP IN THE SEATTLE AREA WITH SOME TOO... >> >> > >Hi Robert! > >They are definitely on the rarer end of the scale. You'll remember that I >got mine from you a few years back. :) > > > I got one, it's the ttl implementation, Needs some work. Jim D. From David.Kane at aph.gov.au Thu Aug 5 02:25:59 2004 From: David.Kane at aph.gov.au (Kane, David (DPS)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available Message-ID: <55919996450608449304DEE79482EEC2080C58@email1.parl.net> > ..I remember that somebody on the list tried to make a collection of zilog chip documents. That might be Joe R. (looking at old messages), or Al Kossow might want it for bitsavers. Any chance the book has details on the Z-ASCC? David From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Aug 5 02:39:01 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: looking for tek manuals References: <003301c47a96$a899c7b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <020401c47abf$4725ac50$7900a8c0@athlon> If you have no luck elsewhere try asking here- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ Dave B Ch Ch , NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 2:48 PM Subject: looking for tek manuals > Anyone have installation and service manuals for the following in electronic > format? > > Tektronix 455 S/N: B055329 > > Tektronix 465 S/N: B306547 > > Thanks in advance! > > Jay West > > From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Aug 5 03:34:58 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Sord M5 References: <0408040508.AA08475@ivan.Harhan.ORG><20040804053656.GA20469@bos7.spole.gov> <16656.58897.445084.423805@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <022801c47ac7$17a4bf90$7900a8c0@athlon> Anyone else have one of these? Seems to need a cartridge to run. I have a basic language cartridge for it- (labelled Falcon) and a Sord Basic G cart manual. So I'm looking for any info, software, other carts, etc. If anyone's interested, there's pix of the M5 on a few web sites and summary data as well. DaveB Ch Ch, NZ From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 03:35:08 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095828@emma.Beovax.Local> > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the > standard > > case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they > did put out > > a computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many > > they might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue > metal case There's at least one of the metal cased ones in 'storage' at Bletchley Park - IMSAI blue with an (I assume) aluminium front, 2 vertical floppy drives etc. Got a pic somewhere if anyone's interested, I can't attach it to this mail 'cos the list software will bin it. Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 03:44:03 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409582B@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 04 August 2004 19:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: rarest computers > > rush for a Computer History Museum event, but I think it > boiled down to dirty contacts on everything. I unseated and > re-seated all the modules and it finally came up. There I did all that before I discovered it was an NTSC box :) Didn't have any compatible display device at the time so it went back in its box.... > BTW, when I was in Japan at the National Science Museum, they > had on loan the original "Brown Box" prototype of the > Odyssey. They actually had it turned on and connected to a > television, and it was still working! Brilliant! Do you know if there are any pictures of that? I've seen original 1960s photos of the brown box but a current one would be excellent. Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 03:52:05 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Sord M5 Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409582C@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Brown > Sent: 05 August 2004 09:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Sord M5 > > > Anyone else have one of these? Seems to need a cartridge to > run. I have a basic language cartridge for it- (labelled > Falcon) and a Sord Basic G cart manual. So I'm looking for > any info, software, other carts, etc. If anyone's interested, > there's pix of the M5 on a few web sites and summary data as well. I've got the european version which was badged by CGL and made in a blue case instead of brown. You need either the BASIC-I (integer) or BASIC-G (graphics) cart before you can do anything else. I've only got a small amount of s/w for it though, maybe 3 tapes and a single lonely 'tank battle' cart that was given to me at the Classic Gaming Expo the other week. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Sord/sord.php Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From lists at microvax.org Thu Aug 5 04:08:58 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (lists@microvax.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection Message-ID: <2004080502445837-1237331092@microvax.org> > I fact let's start a thread of what items people feel are missing from > their collections, Here's mine... (No, I am not asking for any of these...) I would kill for a VAX 6000 in the UK. Mmmmm... *dribble* I'm still a student though, so i've not got a permanent base to keep one at. And I thought a uV-II in a BA123 was a bastard to heft around every end-of-academic-year... alex/melt From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Aug 5 04:51:29 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Sord M5 References: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409582C@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <023301c47ad1$c80a2c80$7900a8c0@athlon> OK Adrian Well this M5 came in a plastic 'briefcase' (with Sord M5 logo on it) that holds all the bits and pieces- it came with a mains power pack, the FALC basic cart (not Falcon as I said in previoius post), the book and a demo audio cassette for Basic G, and just one 'controller'. So I suspect that it did originally have the Basic G cart but that has been 'upgraded'/replaced with this FALC cart, and along the way it has been lost/tossed out, along with the second 'controller'. Whether the 'briefcase' held an audio cassette as well I'm not sure-it would have been a tight squeeze. Be interested in tracking down samples of software for it. A single basic cart is rather boring! Dave Brown Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: RE: Sord M5 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Brown > > Sent: 05 August 2004 09:35 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Sord M5 > > > > > > Anyone else have one of these? Seems to need a cartridge to > > run. I have a basic language cartridge for it- (labelled > > Falcon) and a Sord Basic G cart manual. So I'm looking for > > any info, software, other carts, etc. If anyone's interested, > > there's pix of the M5 on a few web sites and summary data as well. > > I've got the european version which was badged by CGL and made in a blue > case instead of brown. You need either the BASIC-I (integer) or BASIC-G > (graphics) cart before you can do anything else. I've only got a small > amount of s/w for it though, maybe 3 tapes and a single lonely 'tank > battle' cart that was given to me at the Classic Gaming Expo the other > week. > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Sord/sord.php > > Cheers > > -- > adrian/witchy > owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home > computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum > www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans > www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 04:55:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409582B@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > > BTW, when I was in Japan at the National Science Museum, they > > had on loan the original "Brown Box" prototype of the > > Odyssey. They actually had it turned on and connected to a > > television, and it was still working! > > Brilliant! Do you know if there are any pictures of that? I've seen > original 1960s photos of the brown box but a current one would be > excellent. I wasn't allowed to take photos, but it looks pretty much like it did in the late 1960s (with a few scuffs here and there perhaps). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Aug 5 05:11:24 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Sord M5 References: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409582C@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <023e01c47ad4$904457f0$7900a8c0@athlon> Adrian Have just done what I should have initially- web search shows FALC is a spreadsheet! No idea why I thought was a basic cart! So I guess I'm in the market for a basic cart as well. I see a few ROM images are at http://emul8.xlabs.sk/emulators/sord/ so I may be able to brew some up carts myself. DaveB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: RE: Sord M5 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Brown > > Sent: 05 August 2004 09:35 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Sord M5 > > > > > > Anyone else have one of these? Seems to need a cartridge to > > run. I have a basic language cartridge for it- (labelled > > Falcon) and a Sord Basic G cart manual. So I'm looking for > > any info, software, other carts, etc. If anyone's interested, > > there's pix of the M5 on a few web sites and summary data as well. > > I've got the european version which was badged by CGL and made in a blue > case instead of brown. You need either the BASIC-I (integer) or BASIC-G > (graphics) cart before you can do anything else. I've only got a small > amount of s/w for it though, maybe 3 tapes and a single lonely 'tank > battle' cart that was given to me at the Classic Gaming Expo the other > week. > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Sord/sord.php > > Cheers > > -- > adrian/witchy > owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home > computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum > www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans > www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! > > From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 06:05:42 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095831@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of lists@microvax.org > Sent: 05 August 2004 10:09 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Gaps in the collection > > > > I fact let's start a thread of what items people feel are > missing from > > their collections, Here's mine... (No, I am not asking for > any of these...) > > I would kill for a VAX 6000 in the UK. Mmmmm... *dribble* :D I walk past a 6000-410 every time I go upstairs here, and there's a 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup machines for a customer though so you can't have 'em. > I'm still a student though, so i've not got a permanent base > to keep one at. And I thought a uV-II in a BA123 was a > bastard to heft around every end-of-academic-year... BA23 is the way forward, though still bloody heavy. Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 06:08:37 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Sord M5 Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095832@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Brown > Sent: 05 August 2004 10:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sord M5 > > Whether the 'briefcase' held an audio cassette as well I'm > not sure-it would have been a tight squeeze. Be interested in > tracking down samples of software for it. A single basic cart > is rather boring! You haven't seen the rest of the software yet :) Lack of software is one of the things that killed off the M5's chances, along with the Texet TX8000 (amongst other names) and Mattel Aquarius, though let's be honest the Aquarius was never going to set the world on fire was it :) Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 06:10:23 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095833@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 05 August 2004 10:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: rarest computers > > I wasn't allowed to take photos, but it looks pretty much > like it did in the late 1960s (with a few scuffs here and > there perhaps). Not allowed to take pictures? Swines. I'd love to see that up close and personal! Cheers w From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 5 06:45:54 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 on ebay Message-ID: <000e01c47ae1$c467e530$0500fea9@game> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112979548&rd=1 Is there something rare about a Tandy 1000 TL/2 for pricing to hit $167.50 or more? From lists at microvax.org Thu Aug 5 08:08:44 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (lists@microvax.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection Message-ID: <2004080506184424-2104622380@microvax.org> > > I would kill for a VAX 6000 in the UK. Mmmmm... *dribble* > > :D I walk past a 6000-410 every time I go upstairs here, and there's a > 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup machines for a > customer though so you can't have 'em. Bastard. Dibs! ;) > > I'm still a student though, so i've not got a permanent base > > to keep one at. And I thought a uV-II in a BA123 was a > > bastard to heft around every end-of-academic-year... > > BA23 is the way forward, though still bloody heavy. I was just chatting to Greg this morning about swapping my worldbox for a BA23. Sad to see it go because it's so pretty and noisy, but I can rack a BA23 and get some work out of it. alex/melt From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 08:31:02 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available In-Reply-To: <55919996450608449304DEE79482EEC2080C58@email1.parl.net> Message-ID: <20040805133102.71332.qmail@web51802.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Kane, David (DPS)" wrote: > > ..I remember that somebody on the list tried to > make a collection of > zilog chip documents. > > That might be Joe R. (looking at old messages), or I sent the document to Joe R. > Al Kossow might want > it for bitsavers. Oh, There is an Al_Kossow on the list. He must hate me because I snapshot his ebay bid of an 80186 emulator. He got the manual though. > > Any chance the book has details on the Z-ASCC? I heard that Z-ASCC is just the Z-SCC with async part only. cheers, vax, 3900 > > David > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 5 08:40:37 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804182940.086770f0@pc> Message-ID: <16658.14549.688576.973338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 10:42 AM 8/4/2004, you wrote: >> Depending on the case/safe/cabinet, it may actually help quite a >> bit. They are generally rated to 1200 degrees or higher for 45 >> minutes or longer. If you have a 1200 degree fire for 45 minutes, >> then your house is a total loss. John> Some of the CD longevity articles talk about this... those John> safes are rated to preserve paper. The char or combustion John> temperature for paper is far higher than the highest John> temperature that a CD-R will survive. True, unless they are "computer media" safes; those are designed to stay cool and dry. paul From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 09:29:38 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409583E@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of lists@microvax.org > Sent: 05 August 2004 14:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Gaps in the collection > > > 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup > machines for > > a customer though so you can't have 'em. > > Bastard. Dibs! ;) You're in the queue after me :) > I was just chatting to Greg this morning about swapping my > worldbox for a BA23. Sad to see it go because it's so pretty > and noisy, but I can rack a BA23 and get some work out of it. Why not get one of the VAXstations he got from Jules? Do you have a requirement for a QBUS box or summat? Cheers a/w From cb at mythtech.net Thu Aug 5 10:04:15 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's Message-ID: >Some of the CD longevity articles talk about this... those safes >are rated to preserve paper. The char or combustion temperature for >paper is far higher than the highest temperature that a CD-R >will survive. True, I hadn't thought about that angle of it. I suppose a CD or disk will warp enough to ruin it long before paper starts to show signs of heat damage. Its still going to be better then keeping important media in a cardboard box. -chris From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Aug 5 10:01:07 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <200408040201.i7421gbY099283@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408040201.i7421gbY099283@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 21:01 -0500 8/3/04, William Donzelli wrote: >Look at your machines as individuals. Where did you get each one? What >were they used for? Do you have evidence to back up the claims? Got a NeXT Cube from Whitelight systems in Palo Alto, CA. They were a NeXT software developer. I still have the company label on the monitor (which has a fault which I'll need to fix eventually) to show that. The disk was scrubbed, though. Unfortunately, that's about as good as it gets in my collection. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From oldcomp at cox.net Thu Aug 5 10:53:29 2004 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <20040805025453.GA16788@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040804231843.44885.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> <41118B29.5040201@cox.net> <20040805025453.GA16788@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <411257F9.3060807@cox.net> If I recall correctly, the ROR bug was cured in all 6502 chips with date codes later than 2676. Mine is 1576. -Bryan Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I remember references to those flaws in docs I was reading c. 1978 when I > first started learning 6502 machine language (not assembly... I was entering > the code into the computer in hex). Never seen one of the defective chips. > What's the date code on it? > > -ethan > From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 5 11:08:21 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon References: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095828@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <41125B75.B1E74A1D@rain.org> Actually, it would be nice to have pictures of all three Northstar chassis styles. Right now, mine are all buried and I won't get a chance to get near them for another month or so. But I'll keep my eyes open for one of the beige ones now :). Adrian Graham wrote: > > > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the > > standard > > > case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they > > did put out > > > a computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many > > > they might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue > > metal case > > There's at least one of the metal cased ones in 'storage' at Bletchley > Park - IMSAI blue with an (I assume) aluminium front, 2 vertical floppy > drives etc. Got a pic somewhere if anyone's interested, I can't attach > it to this mail 'cos the list software will bin it. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 5 11:14:05 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095831@emma.Beovax.Local> References: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095831@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <200408051615.MAA03170@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> And I thought a uV-II in a BA123 was a bastard to heft around every >> end-of-academic-year... > BA23 is the way forward, though still bloody heavy. But awfully short of slots. A BA123 isn't bad provided you disassemble it to the "major subsystem" level and schlep the pieces around separately. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Thu Aug 5 11:22:13 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:54 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095848@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston > Sent: 05 August 2004 17:08 > To: General@dmzms01.aramiska.net; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Metal Case Northstar Horizon > > > > Actually, it would be nice to have pictures of all three > Northstar chassis styles. Right now, mine are all buried and > I won't get a chance to get near them for another month or > so. But I'll keep my eyes open for one of the beige ones now :). I'm back at bletchley at the weekend so I'll do some proper pictures; I'm sure there's more than one 'cos I remember seeing a box for them (WOW*RARE*L@@K BOXED!!!11) In common with pretty much all of the stuff in 'storage' they're not in the best condition, principally down to where they're being stored :-\ Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 5 11:55:04 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? References: Message-ID: We have an electronics lab here at work, they use denatured alcohol for everyday cleaning, and Deoxit/ProGold for those hard-to-get-out stains :) I use DeOxit at home to clean out the stupidly designed, open-backed volume pots on my McIntosh 5100 amplifier, blast of CO2, shot of Deoxit and no more scratches when changing volume. > Nope :-( The OSI fatherboard pins and the card connectors are > silver(tin?) with nylon. But, Caig makes DeoxIT too, so that's > a "sort of" vote in favor of it. > > Thanks, > Bill From fm.arnold at gmx.net Wed Aug 4 11:57:57 2004 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <200408041739.i74Hccbb006370@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408041739.i74Hccbb006370@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: cctech-request@classiccmp.org schrieb am 04.08.2004: >Message: 17 >Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:53:15 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation > > >Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their >rarest computers in their collections. > >Dwight Hi, My rarest computer is a Nokia Mikko-1. Made by Nokia of Finland in the second half of the seventies. (The g.o.days N. still was a decent company). This computer was build as a 4 bit slice on one 4" x 9" pcb, so there were 8, 12, 16 and even 20 bit versions of it. The instructionset was microprogrammed on another control-pcb, and since different departments at Nokia had different opinions on what was a suitable instructionset, there were at least 4 different instructionsets simultanousley in continuous devellopment. It was programmed in assembler only, whith some cross-compiler running on a PDP8-E with a RF32 attached. It was using Intel 1103 RAM and 1602 ROM or 1702 Eprom. Several thousands were manufactured and used in many different industrial aplications, and as embedded systems in the NOP30 time-shareing terminal or LP4900 multi-channel analyser. I have no idea how many there are still alive, I have 2 systems, and will put some photo's on-line sometime next week. Anyone else has such a beast or its successor Mikko-2? (mainley used in banking applications). Frank From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 5 12:29:07 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <200408051729.KAA29453@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I suspect that most metal cased N*'s were destined to be used in rack mount applications. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > >Actually, it would be nice to have pictures of all three Northstar >chassis styles. Right now, mine are all buried and I won't get a chance >to get near them for another month or so. But I'll keep my eyes open for >one of the beige ones now :). > >Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: >> > >> > > Someone mentioned some time ago a metal case instead of the >> > standard >> > > case for the Northstar Horizon. Can anyone confirm if they >> > did put out >> > > a computer in a metal case, and if so, (wishful thinking) how many >> > > they might have produced? I have one here in a powder blue >> > metal case >> >> There's at least one of the metal cased ones in 'storage' at Bletchley >> Park - IMSAI blue with an (I assume) aluminium front, 2 vertical floppy >> drives etc. Got a pic somewhere if anyone's interested, I can't attach >> it to this mail 'cos the list software will bin it. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 5 13:15:13 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: z8000 segment scheme question In-Reply-To: <200407270019.RAA20601@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040805141513.008c6c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If anyone is serious about building a Z8000 machine, I'll donate a CPU card complete with 7Mb memory, Z-8001 CPU, MMUs, DTC, CIC, SCC, etc. See Joe At 05:19 PM 7/26/04 -0700, you wrote: >Hi > If you guys are intending to build a Z8000 machine to >run CP/M-8000, you should let me know. There are a couple >hardware restrictions you should know about early on. >Dwight > > >>From: "Kane, David (DPS)" >> >>The Z8000 segmented address scheme has two forms. The long form that you >>described uses two 16 bit values (registers or memory locations). The >>short form uses a single 16 bit value with the 7 bit segment number in >>bits 9-15 and an 8 bit offset into the segment in bits 1-8. Bit 16 of >>the first 16 bit value is a flag which indicates long or short segment >>address. This is important for memory addresses operands as the CPU can >>get an address word operand from memory, and then based on the flag bit >>can decide if the next word must be read to get the complete long >>address. In either case the segment address is located in the same place >>in either a short segment address or the first word of a long segmented >>address. >> >>David >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SHAUN RIPLEY >>> Sent: Monday, 26 July 2004 1:27 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: z8000 segment scheme question >>> >>> >>> I picked up one of my computer books today and read >>> that z8000 uses one 16 bit register to hold the 7 bit >>> segment number and one register to hold the 16 bit >>> offset. The strange thing is that the segment number >>> is hold in position of bit 9-14 other than the bottom >>> half of the first register. I goggled and found >>> complaint about this scheme but no one explained why >>> it was designed so. Could somebody on the list tell me why? >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________ >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >> >> > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 5 13:39:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: HP 7906 Re: HP diag library on disc In-Reply-To: <00f901c4798c$179157c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040805143901.0091f500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jay, This reminds me. I saw a 7906 laying in a scrap yard a few days ago. I don't know the condition, it was upside down in the dirt and under a large wire basket. Is there any parts that I need that I can get off of it readily? Joe At 02:00 PM 8/3/04 -0500, you wrote: >In the next week, I should be cutting a few bootable HP diagnostic library >discs for both 7900 and 7905/6 media. > >If someone is in dire need to replace their properly licensed diagnostic set >& media, contact me off-list. > >Jay > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 13:51:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Sord M5 In-Reply-To: <023301c47ad1$c80a2c80$7900a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Dave Brown wrote: > Be interested in tracking down samples of software for it. A single basic > cart is rather boring! You have the best cart of all! Write some games, man! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 13:52:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Sord M5 In-Reply-To: <023e01c47ad4$904457f0$7900a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Dave Brown wrote: > Have just done what I should have initially- web search shows FALC is a > spreadsheet! Ok, so do some accounting, man! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 13:53:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Sord M5 In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095832@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > You haven't seen the rest of the software yet :) Lack of software is one > of the things that killed off the M5's chances, along with the Texet > TX8000 (amongst other names) and Mattel Aquarius, though let's be honest > the Aquarius was never going to set the world on fire was it :) Oh, but it has. You see, the Aquarius was my very first computer. And I'm just getting started... ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 5 13:57:52 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: HP 7906 References: <3.0.6.32.20040805143901.0091f500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001e01c47b1e$1c6912e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Joe wrote.... > This reminds me. I saw a 7906 laying in a scrap yard a few days ago. I > don't know the condition, it was upside down in the dirt and under a large > wire basket. Is there any parts that I need that I can get off of it readily? Funny you should mention that. A spindle motor would be nice. Takes a bit of work to get out though, and they are actually pretty delicate. If you take the spindle motor out you should (and would have to already) take the fixed platter out. Since it's a servo pattern based drive (with a different magnetic coating for the servo surface) those are great to have as spares. All 4 heads, especially the servo head. The large power board in the bottom, and the 4 (or 5 if it's an H model) circuit boards from the card cage pull easily. The main things I need are spindle motor, and I/O sector board. I could definitely use those parts. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 5 14:25:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Paging Jay West.... In-Reply-To: <001e01c47b1e$1c6912e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Jay, Please respont to my e-mails, I don't want the scrapper to get the items! Thanks, David From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 14:20:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095833@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > Not allowed to take pictures? Swines. I'd love to see that up close and > personal! On display until late October: http://www.kahaku.go.jp/english/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 14:22:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 on ebay In-Reply-To: <000e01c47ae1$c467e530$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112979548&rd=1 > > Is there something rare about a Tandy 1000 TL/2 for pricing to hit > $167.50 or more? No. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 5 14:34:25 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Paging Jay West.... References: Message-ID: <004c01c47b23$37397240$033310ac@kwcorp.com> You wrote.... > Please respont to my e-mails, I don't want the scrapper to get the items! I'm sorry, I got your emails but didn't think you were looking from a response from me on them, thought they were just "FYI". I'll go back and re-read! Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From aek at spies.com Thu Aug 5 14:51:14 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available Message-ID: <20040805195114.A346B3C6A@spies.com> > Al Kossow might want > it for bitsavers. Oh, There is an Al_Kossow on the list. He must hate me because I snapshot his ebay bid of an 80186 emulator. He got the manual though. -- Would be interested to know when you get it if it was the complete boxed unit. The listing was ambiguous. If it wasn't complete, the manual will be up on bitsavers/microtek in the next week or two. From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 5 14:51:19 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 on ebay References: Message-ID: <41128FB7.71DD8813@rain.org> If you look at the bidding history, you will see two people fighting it out. The first bid was about $6.00 and two other newbies fought over it until one of them gave in. Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5112979548&rd=1 > > > > Is there something rare about a Tandy 1000 TL/2 for pricing to hit > > $167.50 or more? > > No. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 5 15:14:10 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: HP 7906 In-Reply-To: <001e01c47b1e$1c6912e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040805143901.0091f500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040805161410.009615b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'll see what I can do. I hope they haven't scrapped it yet. I saw it last weeek and meant to ask you about it but forgot. Joe At 01:57 PM 8/5/04 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote.... >> This reminds me. I saw a 7906 laying in a scrap yard a few days ago. I >> don't know the condition, it was upside down in the dirt and under a large >> wire basket. Is there any parts that I need that I can get off of it >readily? > >Funny you should mention that. A spindle motor would be nice. Takes a bit of >work to get out though, and they are actually pretty delicate. If you take >the spindle motor out you should (and would have to already) take the fixed >platter out. Since it's a servo pattern based drive (with a different >magnetic coating for the servo surface) those are great to have as spares. >All 4 heads, especially the servo head. The large power board in the bottom, >and the 4 (or 5 if it's an H model) circuit boards from the card cage pull >easily. The main things I need are spindle motor, and I/O sector board. > >I could definitely use those parts. > >Jay West > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Aug 5 15:32:09 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: TEK UNIX history References: <20040803151032.6E6363C94@spies.com> Message-ID: <41129949.C3F039B2@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > Later, Tek developed a microprocessor development system that utilized > an LSI-11 core. > It was called the 8250. I saw a system in 1975 that they brought to the University of Missouri, Rolla, with what must have been an 11/45 or 11/70 (anyway two bays of stuff with a largeish 11 in it). The system was called a transient system digitizer. It was the precursor of a system that uses a special double ended cathode ray tube to essentially paint at sampling speeds a signal onto a silicon charged array, then digitally scan the results off with another beam from the other side of the array. This was a very fast sampling oscilliscope read by what essentially was an integrated tv tube. Anyway, it would capture the data, process it and make wonderful graphs of the stuff. All of this was moved and was installed and demoed by Tektronix, not dec. Not idea of O/S, since this discussion is about Unix, but at least Tek had experience with "embedded" computing before unix came out and they could get it. Jim Jim From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 5 15:35:01 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <410F7F9A.7090905@citem.org> References: <1091531428.25452.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <410F7F9A.7090905@citem.org> Message-ID: <1091738100.3840.60.camel@dhcp-248209> > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Typically people seem to collect such things for the hardware itself;... > > Seems a shame that often no effort is made to > > preserve the data from the time itself, just the physical hardware. On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 05:05, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > AAAaaarrrggghhh... As I am always pounding into anyone that will listen, > hardware with no documentation is practically useless. Documentation > alone could be sufficient to rebuild the hardware. Therefore given the > choice save the docs!! YES!! Old data, old notes, manuals, tapes, discs, anything anything anything. Software is hard to keep, but worth more than anything else. From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 15:36:52 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available In-Reply-To: <20040805195114.A346B3C6A@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040805203652.3860.qmail@web51801.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > Al Kossow might want > > it for bitsavers. > Oh, There is an Al_Kossow on the list. He must hate > me > because I snapshot his ebay bid of an 80186 > emulator. > He got the manual though. > > -- > > Would be interested to know when you get it if it > was the > complete boxed unit. The listing was ambiguous. If > it > wasn't complete, the manual will be up on > bitsavers/microtek > in the next week or two. I got it today. It is in its original foam but there is no original box. Included is a 68 pin square probe head and a power cable. I bought a power supply for it (Yes, the type of power supply for it) but the size of the power socket on the supply is a little bit different so the power cable can't fit! Also what I am interested is 80c188xl but this one is for 80186. so I went to a warehouse and spent $50 for a microtek IIIS 80186 emulator. I could power the IIIS up but I found that I didn't have the 25pin to 9 pin cross-talk RS232 cable. There are many other emulators in the warehouse. Tektronics, intel, microtek, for NEC v25, z80, z80B, 68000, 68010, 68020, 68300, 83c152, 80186, 8096... Even one for z8001/z8002. Most of them are $99, some are $199 or more each. you can bargain though. Al, I will be happy to ship the 2+ to you with $12.00 (amount I paid including shipping ) + $10 (shipping). The power supply will be a bonus. we can talk about that off-line. vax, 3900 > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 15:36:52 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Zilog Z8038 Z-FIO document available In-Reply-To: <20040805195114.A346B3C6A@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040805203652.3860.qmail@web51801.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > Al Kossow might want > > it for bitsavers. > Oh, There is an Al_Kossow on the list. He must hate > me > because I snapshot his ebay bid of an 80186 > emulator. > He got the manual though. > > -- > > Would be interested to know when you get it if it > was the > complete boxed unit. The listing was ambiguous. If > it > wasn't complete, the manual will be up on > bitsavers/microtek > in the next week or two. I got it today. It is in its original foam but there is no original box. Included is a 68 pin square probe head and a power cable. I bought a power supply for it (Yes, the type of power supply for it) but the size of the power socket on the supply is a little bit different so the power cable can't fit! Also what I am interested is 80c188xl but this one is for 80186. so I went to a warehouse and spent $50 for a microtek IIIS 80186 emulator. I could power the IIIS up but I found that I didn't have the 25pin to 9 pin cross-talk RS232 cable. There are many other emulators in the warehouse. Tektronics, intel, microtek, for NEC v25, z80, z80B, 68000, 68010, 68020, 68300, 83c152, 80186, 8096... Even one for z8001/z8002. Most of them are $99, some are $199 or more each. you can bargain though. Al, I will be happy to ship the 2+ to you with $12.00 (amount I paid including shipping ) + $10 (shipping). The power supply will be a bonus. we can talk about that off-line. vax, 3900 > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 15:42:32 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive Message-ID: <20040805204232.14834.qmail@web51804.mail.yahoo.com> Saw one today. They ask $69 plus tax. vax, 3900 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 5 15:41:39 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: SAGE as vaporware Message-ID: <1091738499.3840.72.camel@dhcp-248209> SAGE was a great pioneering thing, but here's a take that's likely not to be popular here. Les Earnest is a genuine greybeard, and appropriately crusty. http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/e2a.html I know SAGE is a sacred cow, but they often make the best burgers. Also check out some of his other pleasant rantings at http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 5 15:42:45 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Blinkenlight lamps In-Reply-To: <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20040803133555.34592.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> <011501c47960$ddedff80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <01b401c47963$945777e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1091738565.3840.75.camel@dhcp-248209> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 07:10, John Allain wrote: > Here are just six types of controlpanel lamps > that I was able to find at ElectronicBarn: > http://www.panix.com/~allain/P7300001e.jpg (17KBytes) > > The ones on the left seem familliar but I can't remember > where I might have seen that type of spade bottom before... > anybody? Telephone slide base. They're usually 48V. From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 5 15:48:10 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091738889.3840.87.camel@dhcp-248209> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 07:13, William Donzelli wrote: > > There's a SAGE manual on-line in Al Kossow's website (under "ibm"). > > I skimmed through it, looking for a discussion of time sources. Saw > > none, much to my surprise. I suppose it might come embedded in the > > radar data stream, or something like that. > > No, the streams were just digitized radar video. Yeah, no kidding! Umm, people raised in the Beige Box era would be shocked to read about data display in first-gen machines. A typical high-tech radar display was often done by: * analog voltage vs. time data delivered from radar receiver to display; * the CRTs deflection yoke mechanically rotated in sync with the radar dish via Selsyns & servos; * map overlays, if any, were either transparencies applied to the CRT face, or electronic ones were a lucite mask over another CRT, complete with rotating yoke in sync with the main display, and a phototube that picked up the "map" outline on the lucite, and summed the "map" voltage in with the radar analog data; * text markings were not done by computer (until later) but with special CRTs called "charactrons" or typotrons, driven with shift-register memory. (The equiv. of one line of text would be a whole rack of tube gear). Aint not data here. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 16:29:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Frank Arnold wrote: > My rarest computer is a Nokia Mikko-1. Made by Nokia of Finland in the > second half of the seventies. (The g.o.days N. still was a decent company). I look forward to the pictures. This is the first I've heard of a homegrown computer from Finland. Neat! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RMaxwell at atlantissi.com Thu Aug 5 17:09:00 2004 From: RMaxwell at atlantissi.com (RMaxwell@atlantissi.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Why do MRV11-D's crap out? Message-ID: <9726BA9DE867D51183B900B0D0AB85F802F128E4@INETMAIL> A little clarification of Dwight's comment on EPROM life expectancy: The 10-year spec is for the half-life of the charge on the floating gate of the EPROM. In other words, after 10 years, you can expect half a programmed gate's charge to have dissipated. This, by no means, renders the data unreadable: a smaller fraction of the charge is sufficient for the EPROM circuitry to read a programmed cell (most algorithms do a 2x to 4x overprogrammming once a cell reads back programmed). The programmed/unprogrammed read threshold is also temperature sensitive, so cooling off a warm part may allow data recovery from an EPROM that's fading away. Also, bear in mind the specifications are for worst case: the charge leaks away fastest as the device sits near its maximum rated temperature (people have erased EPROMs by heating them over a light bulb!). The cooler the chip, the less leakage. The relationship between temperature and leakage is exponential, too: a few degrees make a lot of difference. If Ed's 2764As were running hot, the gates might have lost enough charge in 15-20 years to forget a few bits... This helps explain why all the EPROMs I programmed in 1985 are still intact. They're backed up on floppy... which decays faster? Bob > -----Original Message----- > > Ed>The set of MXV11-B2 boot ROMs I have are 2764A's. > Ed>Do these die after awhile? > Ed>Just sitting here scratching my head. > Dwight> Most EPROMs are rated for 10 years. That doesn't mean that Dwight> every one will last that long. Also, many of these types Dwight> of systems were all made with EPROMs from the same lot. Dwight> If there was a long term issue, they'd all fail. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 5 17:21:37 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: FA: DEC cards, VME card and PC/104 card Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040805182137.008bd900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> It's piling up faster than I can get rid of it but I finally got around to putting some more stuff on E-bay. There is a Motorola MVME 167 Single Board Computer card, a Diamond Systems PC/104 Single Board Computer card with DAQ and some DEC cards including a GPIB interface, 11/23+ CPU and a DSD disk drive interface on See . Joe From shirsch at adelphia.net Thu Aug 5 17:19:23 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a CPU > designed for reliable operation for real time control of things like > power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed it was so simple that > programs could be proven to be bug free. I was wondering if they > manufactured or sold any the devices. That would be the British "Viper" CPU. Computational theory suggests (proves, perhaps? - it's been a few years) that use of hardware or software stacks renders behavior indeterminate. So, no subroutine calls or dynamically allocated variables. Has anyone ever seen the program listing for a real system implementation using this beast? Byte mentioned the RAF and UK Defence Ministry as being sponsors for its development, IIRC. Steve Quote of the Year: "The five person voting panel voted 57 to 3.14 in favour of getting rid of the Diebold machines." - 'Downside' From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Aug 5 17:29:12 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: MITS Teletype Interface Board Message-ID: <41125248.16308.6AF4403D@localhost> Hi, For those of you who asked to see the MITS Teletype Interface board I mentioned a couple of days ago, I've put a picture at http://www.ibm1130.org/misc/mits-tty-interface.jpg The molex connector at the bottom left below the relay is where the data cable connects. The other end is a DB25 connector, and the wires go to pins 2-6. Since there is no connection to pin 7 (signal ground) it must be current loop. Brian From RMaxwell at atlantissi.com Thu Aug 5 17:28:42 2004 From: RMaxwell at atlantissi.com (RMaxwell@atlantissi.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <9726BA9DE867D51183B900B0D0AB85F802F128E5@INETMAIL> > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Well, I have a pretty big stack of Ohio Scientific... hardware, > > software, documentation and advertising. I never thought it was > > that rare, but then Sellam told me that he has a very hard time > > turning up OSI stuff, so maybe it's a little rare. > > To which Sellam Ismail replied: > > OSI stuff has traditionally been hard to turn up (for me at least). It > took several years of collecting before I got my first OSI system. Now I > have a few various models, all given to me by various people ironically. > > Bob Maxwell had the coolest and rarest OSI computer at VCF East: a model > 300 (OSI's first kit?) > Alas, it's not mine. Jim Kearney brought it VCF East to supplement my OSI Superboard display. The 300 is a sobering reminder of how a computer company could start in those early days with hobbyist-grade products. I don't think Michael Dell could have ever sold any PCs with hand-taped circuit board artwork... Bob From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Aug 5 17:29:32 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Fw: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) Message-ID: <003401c47b3b$b8bb8340$0200a8c0@geoff> This one got lost too . What's going on ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Thomas" To: "Joe R." Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:59 AM Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > >But our comrade Joe is using a purely perjorative term from the English > > >colonial past. > > > > I might be classified as a lot of things but Comrade is definitely not > > one of them! Where the hell did that come from anyway? > > It's meant to be irony. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Aug 5 17:28:42 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Fw: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) Message-ID: <003301c47b3b$b85ff5c0$0200a8c0@geoff> This message got lost , here it is again. It wasn't censored was it ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Thomas" To: "Joe R." Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 12:42 PM Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe R." > To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 12:01 AM > Subject: Re: OT stupid Welsh and Americans (was Re: Cirris 1000) > > > > Considering the English colonial past, the English don't have the right > > to complain about anything! Not only see Opium wars, see black slavery > > (who do you think shipped the slaves to America and the Caribeaan in > > exchange for sugar and rum?), Irish potato famine, Endentured Servitude > > (another word for slavery), debitor's prison, scalp bounties (both in > North > > American and for Australian Aborigines), press gangs (ship's crews). Then > > go see American Revolution! > > > > Now do you REALLY want to get into a debate about English colonial > past???? > > > > My 2 cents worth, > > Joe > > I'm not English , I'm Welsh - hence my objection to your use of the term in > an offensive (to me ) manner. > You don't need to tell me about the English colonial past - the Welsh have > been on the wrong end of it - hence the large migration to the USA to get > away from them . Hence also the large no. of signatories on the declaration > of independence who are of Welsh descent. > > Geoff. > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 5 17:37:10 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <200408020114.VAA10254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000901c47b3c$bf4ee750$5b01a8c0@flexpc> I've fallen a little behind in my reading so I forgot to follow this thread. > I now favour the "executing out of prefetch buffer" theory, reinforced > by the following comment snippet someone sent me, supposedly > taken from > the source to MicroVAX console ROMs: > > ; To turn on MMGT and execute the following REI depends > on a "quirk" > ; of the MicroVAX chip. Namely, if the MTPR and REI > instruction are > ; both fetched as part of the same instruction > prefetch, then the > ; REI will be executed regardless of the enabling of > mmgt. However, OK. So it sounds like you have strong evidence for a chip bug here. The chances of getting it confirmed are slim :-) - there was a list of Waivers granted to various VAX implementations, but seeing it was on a need-to-know basis. If the console code has such comments in, it's best to believe them. I guess they let the bug pass both because it's relatively harmless and would have been expensive to fix once the chip had been finalised. > I'm nto sure where this "Manx" is; I did some poking around > with google > and found nothing helpful. http://vt100.net/manx Type in 78032 and see what pops up. > Heh. I don't suppose the microcode is available anywhere? I don't have the KA630 microcode and I don't know anyone who does. The group I worked with produced the DEMSA and DEMSB which were both based on the 78032, so they must have had example console code lying around. But I can guarantee that's long gone (and was probably long gone before I got there). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Aug 5 17:41:21 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: OT: Simple electronics question... References: <4111338B.3040009@sbcglobal.net> <200408042209.SAA19874@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <004e01c47b3d$6a05c100$0200a8c0@geoff> > > You could do that. But you might be better off frobbing the > volume-control circuit itself. The volume control is projbably a pot > with one side grounded, one side driven, and the variable tap taken to > drive further electronics. Inserting a resistor in series with the > non-grounded side will do something like what you want. I would have thought that placing a low value pot. in series with the grounded side - say 100 ohm to start with , and turn the radio volume control to minimum , then wind up your 100 ohm to get the level you want. The problem you have is at the bottom end of the range of the control - this would effectively expand that control and not make too much difference to the impedance of the circuit. I think you will find that this will work and you won't need to switch it out as it's effect is minimal. Geoff. > > Either of these approaches runs a risk of creating impedance mismatches > between the driving circuit and the driven thing. Which way introduces > less distortion depends on the circuit - though I must confess that I > would expect the distortion introduced by this mismatch to be far less > than you get from other causes in most clock radios. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 5 17:48:00 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Article on data rot on CD's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040805174728.08905500@pc> At 10:04 AM 8/5/2004, chris wrote: >True, I hadn't thought about that angle of it. I suppose a CD or disk >will warp enough to ruin it long before paper starts to show signs of >heat damage. I'm sure the dyes would degrade long before the plastic started to melt, if heated evenly. - John From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Aug 5 17:54:28 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. References: Message-ID: <007801c47b3f$4e494fc0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 12:19 AM Subject: Re: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > It's easier to preserve the manuals -- if they exist -- though. > > > > Some times you must do more than that even. Alot of the newer > > chips are clones of earlyer chips and the doc's are sparce so you must > > gp to the orginal docs for quirks and bugs. > > Surely I am not the only person who not only keeps every databook I've > ever owned, but also buys old databooks (I think I have a pre-1970 > Motorola IC databook somewhere -- back then one book covered all ICs > ;-)). > What about the wallcharts , keep those as well - or just cut out the important bits ? :>) Geoff. > Databooks are _esssential_ if you want to understnad or repair the hardware! > > And sometimes a machine's service manual will assume you've got the docs > for an older model. > > -tony From medavidson at mac.com Thu Aug 5 18:26:24 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: old stuff found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd love to learn more about the H-8... how much would you want? What exactly do you have? :) Mark On Aug 4, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi all, > > I found three interesting bits of stuff today: > > 1. HeathkitH-8 > > 2. Tandy Color Computer 3 > > 3. Instructigraph code/teletype practice set > with practice tapes, keys and (tube) amp > > There's also a cute Tandy 200-in-one Electronics Lab > kit, thats way cool :) > > I am cleaning out someone's garage for them, and would > probably want to sell the above items to get them some > money. Any interest here, or should I go ePay ? > > Cheers, > > Fred > From hansp at citem.org Thu Aug 5 18:29:48 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <000901c47b3c$bf4ee750$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000901c47b3c$bf4ee750$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <4112C2EC.3000206@citem.org> Antonio Carlini wrote: > I've fallen a little behind in my reading > so I forgot to follow this thread. > > >>I now favour the "executing out of prefetch buffer" theory, reinforced >>by the following comment snippet someone sent me, supposedly >>taken from >>the source to MicroVAX console ROMs: >> >>; To turn on MMGT and execute the following REI depends >>on a "quirk" >>; of the MicroVAX chip. Namely, if the MTPR and REI >>instruction are >>; both fetched as part of the same instruction >>prefetch, then the >>; REI will be executed regardless of the enabling of >>mmgt. However, > > > OK. So it sounds like you have strong evidence for > a chip bug here. The chances of getting it confirmed > are slim :-) - there was a list of Waivers granted > to various VAX implementations, but seeing it was > on a need-to-know basis. If the console code has > such comments in, it's best to believe them. > > I guess they let the bug pass both because it's > relatively harmless and would have been expensive > to fix once the chip had been finalised. Have you taken this up with Bob Supnik, he of SIMH fame? -- HansP From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Aug 5 18:49:38 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) References: Message-ID: <4112C792.1000302@tiac.net> >On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > >>I'm not so keen on the CHM. I don't know if I aired this already or >>not, but I think not. >> >>When I left the bay area a couple months ago, I tried to give my working >>wang 2200 with terminal, manuals, working floppy disk system, >>fixed/removable hard disk system, and disks. >> >>It took a LOT of work (weeks of one-sided prodding) on my part to have >>them consider it. "The curator will contact you in a few days..." (a >>week passes), another email, "The curator will contact you in a few >>days...", more time passes, another email, "Could you describe it >>again?", etc. >> >>After more than a month of delay, I received and email with the tenor of >>a form letter along these lines: Dear Jim, thank you for considering the >>CHM. Unfortunately at this time we don't have an interest in obtaining >>your keypunch machine. Here are the names of some other museums that >>may be interested ... >> >>It went to the digibarn instead. That they didn't want my computer >>isn't what ruffled me -- it was their seeming indifference to what I >>thought was a generous offer. At any rate, I'm sure the computer ended >>up with someone (Bruce) who appreciates it more than the CHM. >> Painful, but not nearly as bad as my experiances with Oliver Strimple when he was the curator of the (defunct) Boston Computer Museum. When I told him I collected and 'restored to working condition' minicomputers from the 1960's (and wanted to display them as his museum) he scoffed at the very idea of 'restoration to working condition'. It was painful to walk through that place and see restorable hardware gutted and filled with strings of winking christmas lights. There was a TON of really important and rare stuff that got trashed there. CADR's, a Foonly, I think even the original CONS machine went there, never to see the light of day again. >> From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 5 18:45:00 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091749499.3840.270.camel@dhcp-248209> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 13:41, William Donzelli wrote: > Intel is known for many dead ends and bad timing. They really are a pretty > innovative company - it is a shame they have this huge stain on > their history called x86. Better known as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$86. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 5 19:13:56 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. References: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16658.52548.468000.600186@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Steven" == Steven N Hirsch writes: Steven> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: >> PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a CPU >> designed for reliable operation for real time control of things >> like power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed it was so >> simple that programs could be proven to be bug free. I was >> wondering if they manufactured or sold any the devices. Steven> That would be the British "Viper" CPU. Computational theory Steven> suggests (proves, perhaps? - it's been a few years) that use Steven> of hardware or software stacks renders behavior Steven> indeterminate. Baloney. Anyone who has paid any attention to Dijkstra knows that such a statement would have to be complete and utter nonsense. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 5 19:27:59 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. References: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> <16658.52548.468000.600186@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16658.53391.574000.876662@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: >>>>> "Steven" == Steven N Hirsch writes: Steven> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: >>> PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a >>> CPU designed for reliable operation for real time control of >>> things like power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed it >>> was so simple that programs could be proven to be bug free. I was >>> wondering if they manufactured or sold any the devices. Steven> That would be the British "Viper" CPU. Computational theory Steven> suggests (proves, perhaps? - it's been a few years) that use Steven> of hardware or software stacks renders behavior Steven> indeterminate. Paul> Baloney. Anyone who has paid any attention to Dijkstra knows Paul> that such a statement would have to be complete and utter Paul> nonsense. PS. It is certainly true that programs can be proven to match their specification. That's not quite the same as proving them bug free -- it now requires the specification to be bug free. But such proofs in no way require the absence of a stack. That's actually rather obvious, because any program that uses a stack can be rewritten into a program that does not use one. But in fact such a rewrite does not help readability at all. It probably is not a coincidence that the scientist who did much early work on stacks is also the scientist who spent a lifetime working on program correctness (E.W.Dijkstra). paul From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Aug 5 19:29:16 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Trying to remember a machine Message-ID: <4112D0DC.1080401@jcwren.com> I'm trying to recall the name of a machine made back in the 80's, I think. I'm pretty sure it was 68000 based, had 2 1/2 or 1/3 height 8" floppies stacked, was as wide as the floppy drives, about 8" tall (guessing), and maybe 6" to 8" deeper than the floppy drives. I was thinking it was a Sage II or Sage IV, but those all had side-by-side 5.25" drives. I'm not positive, but I think this was a Pascal P-machine, or at least was in it's native configuration, if it was 68000. Anyone remember what I'm trying to think of? --jc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 5 20:00:43 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. Message-ID: <200408060100.SAA29769@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: > >>>>>> "Steven" == Steven N Hirsch writes: > Steven> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > >>> PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a > >>> CPU designed for reliable operation for real time control of > >>> things like power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed it > >>> was so simple that programs could be proven to be bug free. I was > >>> wondering if they manufactured or sold any the devices. > > Steven> That would be the British "Viper" CPU. Computational theory > Steven> suggests (proves, perhaps? - it's been a few years) that use > Steven> of hardware or software stacks renders behavior > Steven> indeterminate. > > Paul> Baloney. Anyone who has paid any attention to Dijkstra knows > Paul> that such a statement would have to be complete and utter > Paul> nonsense. > >PS. It is certainly true that programs can be proven to match their >specification. That's not quite the same as proving them bug free -- >it now requires the specification to be bug free. > >But such proofs in no way require the absence of a stack. That's >actually rather obvious, because any program that uses a stack can be >rewritten into a program that does not use one. But in fact such a >rewrite does not help readability at all. > >It probably is not a coincidence that the scientist who did much early >work on stacks is also the scientist who spent a lifetime working on >program correctness (E.W.Dijkstra). > > paul > Hi I think that it is interesting that there is a programmer in the UK that produces one of the few provable program products for correctness ( to specification ) that meet some standard ( I forget which ) and his programs are all done in Forth ( that uses two stacks ). My understanding is that most of the reason he can produce this is that the language it self is built and verified by him and that even though there are stacks, use is usually more controlled and maximum depths can be calculated. Most Forth processes are done with cooperative tasking rather than the more random effects of preemptive. This also means better predictability. The other part is that Forth programs tend to be highly factored. This means that hierarchical verification is more practical. It is easier to understand the range of valid inputs for each piece and how those effect the next level up. He writes program for such things as subway control systems. His products need to meet tight controls that need to be absolutely correct or people die. Strange that he would use a language that not only uses a stack but uses two stacks and still produces verifiable results. He considers that choice to be a most important one. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 5 20:55:34 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:55 2005 Subject: KA630 guru? In-Reply-To: <000901c47b3c$bf4ee750$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000901c47b3c$bf4ee750$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200408060210.WAA05754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [Antonio Carlini, replying to me] >> I now favour the "executing out of prefetch buffer" theory, >> reinforced by the following comment snippet someone sent me, >> supposedly taken from the source to MicroVAX console ROMs: >> [...] To turn on MMGT and execute the following REI depends on a >> "quirk" of the MicroVAX chip. Namely, if the MTPR and REI >> instruction are both fetched as part of the same instruction >> prefetch, then the REI will be executed regardless of the enabling >> of mmgt. [...] > OK. So it sounds like you have strong evidence for a chip bug here. I'm not sure I'd call this a _bug_, really; my VARM, at least, does not indicate that changing MAPEN is supposed to do anything to any instruction prefetch buffers - yet the prefetch was clearly considered, since the REI description does specifically say that "[a]ny instruction lookahead in the processor is reinitialized". If anything, I'd say it's the author(s) of the ROM code that are sloppy here, for depending on the ability to execute out of the prefetch buffer. (But given the target for their code, I'm not sure it's fair to say even that much.) I have done tests, and the real thing does in fact execute out of the prefetch buffer after changing MAPEN. > If the console code has such comments in, it's best to believe them. Even if it's merely alleged to, I'm inclined to believe them when my own tests indicate that something very similar is in fact going on. :) >> Heh. I don't suppose the microcode is available anywhere? > I don't have the KA630 microcode and I don't know anyone who does. That's about what I expected. And I can't imagine that it's programmer-visible at the VAX programmer level, so I can't dump it as trivially as I did the console ROM code...ah well. Though it really would have been pretty cool to build an emulator for the micromachine instead and then run the real thing's microcode. :-) [Hans B PUFAL, responding to Antonio Carlini's response to me] > Have you taken this up with Bob Supnik, he of SIMH fame? Me, no, I haven't. I may eventually if I run up against something I can't handle on my own, but so far I haven't reached that point. I'm now well into the code that selftests the FPU, writing emulations of the various floating-point instructions. Tedious but not difficult. We'll see what I run into once that's done. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Aug 5 21:11:20 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) In-Reply-To: <4112C792.1000302@tiac.net> Message-ID: Quoth Bob Shannon: > Painful, but not nearly as bad as my experiances with Oliver Strimple > when he was the curator of the > (defunct) Boston Computer Museum. > > When I told him I collected and 'restored to working condition' > minicomputers from the 1960's (and > wanted to display them as his museum) he scoffed at the very idea of > 'restoration to working condition'. > > It was painful to walk through that place and see restorable hardware > gutted and filled with strings of winking christmas lights. Aiya! A museum curator that has no love for the items collected shouldn't be a bloody museum curator. :( > There was a TON of really important and rare stuff that got trashed > there. CADR's, a Foonly, I think even > the original CONS machine went there, never to see the light of day again. What became of the Boston Computer Museum, anyway? And what happened to their collection, such as it was? -O.- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 5 21:28:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: MITS Teletype Interface Board Message-ID: <200408060228.TAA29811@clulw009.amd.com> Hi It doesn't look like it has enough on it to be a RS-232 converter but it could be a 20 to 60 mil converter. You might look at the circuit layout around the thansistors labeled Q1 to Q4. Tracing this part out will most likely figure out what the intent is. It looks like it does replace some of the power supply sections of a ASR33 so that would explain the look of a power supply. You can power the unit up and look at the voltages on the DB25. I tend to agree that missing both pin 1 and pin 7 would indicate that it wasn't a RS232. Dwight >From: "Brian Knittel" > >Hi, > >For those of you who asked to see the MITS >Teletype Interface board I mentioned a couple >of days ago, I've put a picture at >http://www.ibm1130.org/misc/mits-tty-interface.jpg > >The molex connector at the bottom left below the relay >is where the data cable connects. The other end is >a DB25 connector, and the wires go to pins 2-6. Since >there is no connection to pin 7 (signal ground) it must >be current loop. > >Brian > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 21:30:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Trying to remember a machine In-Reply-To: <4112D0DC.1080401@jcwren.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, J.C. Wren wrote: > I'm trying to recall the name of a machine made back in the 80's, I > think. I'm pretty sure it was 68000 based, had 2 1/2 or 1/3 height 8" > floppies stacked, was as wide as the floppy drives, about 8" tall > (guessing), and maybe 6" to 8" deeper than the floppy drives. I was > thinking it was a Sage II or Sage IV, but those all had side-by-side > 5.25" drives. I'm not positive, but I think this was a Pascal > P-machine, or at least was in it's native configuration, if it was > 68000. Anyone remember what I'm trying to think of? I have something that sounds a lot like this, except it's Z80 based. It's the ACI-2 made by Alspa Compter Inc. It has two half-height 8" drives, and the rest of the enclosure is not much bigger than the drives. The motherboard sits at the bottom, and there's an opening in the enclosure where you can get access to the RAM, CPU and other components. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 5 21:32:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, O. Sharp wrote: > What became of the Boston Computer Museum, anyway? And what happened to > their collection, such as it was? It moved to the west coast and became the Computer History Museum. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 5 22:27:59 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Dell comercial Message-ID: <200408052327.59351.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Can anyone identify the classic computers in the new Dell commercial? It has a tech duct taping a bunch of old machines to keep them running longer. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBEvq/LPrIaE/xBZARAgm+AJ4wfP7zCsF/7/wx/7giJaWPs35ffQCeOOxQ NzWjEEfOPnGud3r9yvH88kA= =JTMS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From evan947 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 23:07:42 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> I just heard the very end of a TV news report, where they said some airport terminal was shut down for hours today due to a bomb scare. They described the potential bomb as a small, odd-looking box with wires and various electrical parts. Then they said "It turned out to be an antique microphone." Which makes me wonder... has anyone here ever had a problem explaining vintage computers to airport security? When I flew out to VCF last fall I proactively told the security officer that my bag contained vintage calculators and handheld computers, in case it looked odd to her in the X-Ray machine, but she looked at me with an expression of "Why the heck do you think I'd care?" LOL, however that may be more of a comment on how poor the airport security hiring rules are. I'd like to hear some feedback, however, please let's NOT turn this into a rambling thread about politics or any similar B.S.... From evan947 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 23:13:32 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) Message-ID: <20040806041332.79074.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Many things went to Boston's Science Museum as well. > What became of the Boston Computer Museum, anyway? And what happened to > their collection, such as it was? It moved to the west coast and became the Computer History Museum. -- From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 5 23:18:16 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection In-Reply-To: <2004080506184424-2104622380@microvax.org> References: <2004080506184424-2104622380@microvax.org> Message-ID: <20040806041816.GA20329@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 05:08:44AM -0800, lists@microvax.org wrote: > > > I would kill for a VAX 6000 in the UK. Mmmmm... *dribble* > > > > :D I walk past a 6000-410 every time I go upstairs here, and there's a > > 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup machines for a > > customer though so you can't have 'em. > > Bastard. Dibs! ;) Not to be critical (I own several VAXen myself including an 8300), but can you explain the appeal of a 6000 at home? I agree they are cool boxes that are fun to work on (a lot more fun than Nautilus-based machines in my experience), but to me, a particular model (of anything from DEC) has appeal because of the bus type (or none for pre-1970 machines) or memory capacity or disk/tape drives that work with it... I mean... I like VMS and I've been using it for 20 years, but unless I want to plug in a particular peripheral, I'd rather run a desk-top-sized machine than a rack, just for power/heat reasons (for the record, I use the 8300 because I have a stack of VAXBI COMBOARDs that I helped design and did all the programming (firmware/device driver, etc.) for - if I don't want to fiddle with VAXBI stuff, I fire up a MicroVAX). Again... not a criticism, just curious about what makes the 6000 line interesting to you. > > BA23 is the way forward, though still bloody heavy. > > I was just chatting to Greg this morning about swapping my worldbox for a > BA23. Sad to see it go because it's so pretty and noisy, but I can rack a > BA23 and get some work out of it. I always liked the BA123 because you could mount a TK50 and a couple of drives in there and not have boxes and cables running everywhere. Rack mount boxes are great, of course, but our uVAX-II rigs were always a pain because of all the goodies we had to hang off of them to get them upgraded to the point where we could do some development of our products on them. It's not so bad, I guess, if you have a SCSI card and put a 600MB SCSI drive inside the BA23 where you normally find an RD53 or RD54. If you are stuck with RQDX3 controllers (like we were), getting enough disk space becomes a mess. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Aug-2004 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.5 F (-62.0 C) Windchill -118.8 F (-83.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 094 Barometer 675.6 mb (10792. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jimmydevice at verizon.net Thu Aug 5 23:33:02 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <1091749499.3840.270.camel@dhcp-248209> References: <1091749499.3840.270.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: <411309FE.4090802@verizon.net> Tom Jennings wrote: >On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 13:41, William Donzelli wrote: > > > >>Intel is known for many dead ends and bad timing. They really are a pretty >>innovative company - it is a shame they have this huge stain on >>their history called x86. >> >> > >Better known as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$86. > > > > > Speaking of Intel, Does anyone have or even know of any 432 or BiiN systems existing? That's a rare bird. Jim Davis. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 00:05:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, evan wrote: > Which makes me wonder... has anyone here ever had a problem explaining > vintage computers to airport security? When I flew out to VCF last fall > I proactively told the security officer that my bag contained vintage > calculators and handheld computers, in case it looked odd to her in the > X-Ray machine, but she looked at me with an expression of "Why the heck > do you think I'd care?" LOL, however that may be more of a comment on > how poor the airport security hiring rules are. Yes. I flew less than a month after 9/11. On the way back home, I was lugging back a largish Robotron computer (East German clone of the Z80). At Heathrow, I got pulled to the side when the airplane began boarding. I was brought down to a lobby just next to the tarmac to open the box with the Robotron and to explain what it was. The security guy seemed to sigh a breath of relief. We taped it back up and off it went. On the way to Japan I had the PDP-1 replica front panel with me in a large suitcase, plus a bunch of tools (power drill, soldering iron, etc.) plus a bunch of raw materials (aluminum enclosures, wries/cables). I'm sure it would look lovely under the scanners. So I informed the desk agent that I wanted it to go through the security check so that I could be there when it was examined (and make sure it wasn't mishandled or re-packed improperly). The security guy was a dick at first but then lightened up and said, "Sir, I don't see anything of concern in here." Cool. I flew eight flight legs between three countries between July 3 and July 18 and didn't get the normal hassle I was used to. Either "they" know everything about me now, or I got really, super, unbelievably lucky ;) > I'd like to hear some feedback, however, please let's NOT turn this into a > rambling thread about politics or any similar B.S.... F Bush / F Kerry -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 6 00:13:38 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... References: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004c01c47b74$220d3450$dc2b1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "evan" To: Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 12:07 AM Subject: Holy cow... > I just heard the very end of a TV news report, where they said some airport > terminal was shut down for hours today due to a bomb scare. They described the > potential bomb as a small, odd-looking box with wires and various electrical > parts. Then they said "It turned out to be an antique microphone." > > Which makes me wonder... has anyone here ever had a problem explaining vintage > computers to airport security? When I flew out to VCF last fall I proactively > told the security officer that my bag contained vintage calculators and > handheld computers, in case it looked odd to her in the X-Ray machine, but she > looked at me with an expression of "Why the heck do you think I'd care?" LOL, > however that may be more of a comment on how poor the airport security hiring > rules are. > > I'd like to hear some feedback, however, please let's NOT turn this into a > rambling thread about politics or any similar B.S.... Everybody has electronics or ships electronics by plane these days, they are more worried about people planting bombs in cargo or smuggling something sharp on board. Do they have anything besides bomb sniffing dogs in the airport to detect explosives? The old microphone probably looked like a wired stick of dynamite to the inspector seeing the x-ray. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Aug 6 00:17:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040806051739.GB20329@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 09:07:42PM -0700, evan wrote: > Which makes me wonder... has anyone here ever had a problem explaining vintage > computers to airport security? Problems? No. Did I get searched? Thoroughly. I was hauling my gear to the Pole - SBC6120, FP6120, MC-1N (INS8073 SBC) box of CDP18xx chips and various CMOS bits, laptop docking station, battery chargers, digital camera accessories, hand tools, etc., and at check-in, I was asked to step to the side after my checked bags went through the X-Ray. The only thing they didn't find odd was the laptop itself. I got through security fine, but they did want to look in each and every one of my bags. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Aug-2004 05:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.0 F (-62.8 C) Windchill -125.6 F (-87.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.8 kts Grid 094 Barometer 674.7 mb (10828. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 01:36:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Vintage computers in Towering Inferno? Message-ID: I just saw a snippet of the movie "The Towering Inferno" where they were in a security control room and there was a panel in the background with a grid of large rectangular lamps all blinking like mad. Was this a real computer? If so, what was it? If no one can answer, I'll just get the movie in my next Netflix batch and suffer through it to check. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Fri Aug 6 03:44:22 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409584B@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 05 August 2004 20:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: rarest computers > > On display until late October: > http://www.kahaku.go.jp/english/ I couldn't see anything about computer dinosaurs there, just dinosaur bones :) Cheers w From lists at microvax.org Fri Aug 6 05:08:03 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (lists@microvax.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection Message-ID: <2004080603160310-1433703927@microvax.org> > > > 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup > > machines for > > > a customer though so you can't have 'em. > > > > Bastard. Dibs! ;) > > You're in the queue after me :) I know, but I would just like it known in case something... mysterious happens to you ;) > > I was just chatting to Greg this morning about swapping my > > worldbox for a BA23. Sad to see it go because it's so pretty > > and noisy, but I can rack a BA23 and get some work out of it. > > Why not get one of the VAXstations he got from Jules? Do you have a > requirement for a QBUS box or summat? Yes, i'd like to transplant the fully-functioning guts of the MicroVAX-II in the BA123 into something a bit smaller. I've got various MicroVAX3100s around doing jobs too. Variety, man! alex/melt From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 6 05:26:15 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection In-Reply-To: <2004080603160310-1433703927@microvax.org> References: <2004080603160310-1433703927@microvax.org> Message-ID: <1091787975.29423.35.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 10:08, lists@microvax.org wrote: > > > > 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup > > > machines for > > > > a customer though so you can't have 'em. > > > > > > Bastard. Dibs! ;) > > > > You're in the queue after me :) > > I know, but I would just like it known in case something... mysterious happens to you ;) For a small fee I could lock him up in D Block at Bletchley this weekend... :-) J. From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Aug 6 05:34:56 2004 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Dell comercial In-Reply-To: <200408052327.59351.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200408052327.59351.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040806063133.01c150c8@smtp.wincom.net> At 11:27 PM 05/08/2004, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Can anyone identify the classic computers in the new Dell commercial? > >It has a tech duct taping a bunch of old machines to keep them running >longer. I saw a Model 4 inside a box, impersonating a new portable. Cheers Charlie Fox > Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From lists at microvax.org Fri Aug 6 05:08:55 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (lists@microvax.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection Message-ID: <2004080603515538-2106911645@microvax.org> > > > > > 7000 just round the corner in stores. They're both backup > > > > machines for a customer though so you can't have 'em. > > > > > > > > Bastard. Dibs! ;) > > > > > > You're in the queue after me :) > > > > I know, but I would just like it known in case something... mysterious happens to you ;) > > For a small fee I could lock him up in D Block at Bletchley this > weekend... :-) *paypal sent* alex/melt From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 6 06:36:52 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) In-Reply-To: <4112C792.1000302@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 5, 04 07:49:38 pm Message-ID: <200408061136.HAA14183@wordstock.com> And thusly Bob Shannon spake: > > It was painful to walk through that place and see restorable hardware > gutted and filled with strings of winking christmas lights. > > There was a TON of really important and rare stuff that got trashed > there. CADR's, a Foonly, I think even > the original CONS machine went there, never to see the light of day again. I visited the Computer History Museum shortly after I moved to Boston.. It was *such* a disappointment. :( OOOhhh! I get to feel how warm a vacuum tube gets... It is pretty sad when the best part of the tour was seeing the pictures of important people in the computer industry at the end..... They needed to take a cue from places like the Ontario Science Centre where interactivity is the focus!! Cheers, Bryan Pope From menadeau at comcast.net Fri Aug 6 07:31:31 2004 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... References: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006601c47bb1$4f1dd700$0c01a8c0@Mike> Years before 9/11, Compaq gave me a clear-cased prototype of a notebook computer with the strict warning to keep it out of public view. When airport security in Houston asked me to take out my computer, I asked to do so in a private area. That seemed to make them suspicious, and I was taken to a room with three security personnel. They thought the computer was very strange, and gave me a weird look when I explained the circumstances, but they eventually let me through. --Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "evan" To: Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 12:07 AM Subject: Holy cow... > I just heard the very end of a TV news report, where they said some airport > terminal was shut down for hours today due to a bomb scare. They described the > potential bomb as a small, odd-looking box with wires and various electrical > parts. Then they said "It turned out to be an antique microphone." > > Which makes me wonder... has anyone here ever had a problem explaining vintage > computers to airport security? When I flew out to VCF last fall I proactively > told the security officer that my bag contained vintage calculators and > handheld computers, in case it looked odd to her in the X-Ray machine, but she > looked at me with an expression of "Why the heck do you think I'd care?" LOL, > however that may be more of a comment on how poor the airport security hiring > rules are. > > I'd like to hear some feedback, however, please let's NOT turn this into a > rambling thread about politics or any similar B.S.... > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 07:39:23 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Dell comercial In-Reply-To: <200408052327.59351.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806083923.00963e00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I saw that. IIRC one was a HP 150. I THINK there was also an Apple II in it. FWIW I watched a movie a couple of nights ago and spotted a Apple II with two disk drives sitting up in a cupbaord in one of the scenes. I don't remember the name of the movie but it was made in Canada and was about the Armenian genocide. The surprising thing was the the movie is only a couple of years old but there was a 20 year old Apple II in it and it was sitting where no one could possible use it. The monitor was on the shelf under the CPU. You have to wonder about some of the people that design these movie sets. Joe At 11:27 PM 8/5/04 -0400, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Can anyone identify the classic computers in the new Dell commercial? > >It has a tech duct taping a bunch of old machines to keep them running >longer. > > >- -- >Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 >Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks > >Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFBEvq/LPrIaE/xBZARAgm+AJ4wfP7zCsF/7/wx/7giJaWPs35ffQCeOOxQ >NzWjEEfOPnGud3r9yvH88kA= >=JTMS >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 07:32:51 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went to a HP Calculator conference in England about 6 or 7 years ago (pre-9/11) and I carried a LOT of calculators, parts, accessories and tools with me. I was very concerned about going through security and customs but had almost no trouble. The ONLY thing they questioned was what was the little thing that I had hanging off of a pair wires with nothing else connected. (It was a tiny prototype blue chip LED that I'd connected two wires to in order to power it up). Somehow they'd spotted it via X-ray or something buried under everything else in the case and it aroused their curiosity because it wasn't connected to anything. When I pulled out the calculators and told them that I was going to a calculator conference I expected a lot of questions but they acted like they could care less. Joe At 09:07 PM 8/5/04 -0700, you wrote: >I just heard the very end of a TV news report, where they said some airport >terminal was shut down for hours today due to a bomb scare. They described the >potential bomb as a small, odd-looking box with wires and various electrical >parts. Then they said "It turned out to be an antique microphone." > >Which makes me wonder... has anyone here ever had a problem explaining vintage >computers to airport security? When I flew out to VCF last fall I proactively >told the security officer that my bag contained vintage calculators and >handheld computers, in case it looked odd to her in the X-Ray machine, but she >looked at me with an expression of "Why the heck do you think I'd care?" LOL, >however that may be more of a comment on how poor the airport security hiring >rules are. > >I'd like to hear some feedback, however, please let's NOT turn this into a >rambling thread about politics or any similar B.S.... > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 07:43:03 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Dell comercial In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040806063133.01c150c8@smtp.wincom.net> References: <200408052327.59351.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200408052327.59351.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806084303.0079c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:34 AM 8/6/04 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:27 PM 05/08/2004, you wrote: >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>Hash: SHA1 >> >>Can anyone identify the classic computers in the new Dell commercial? >> >>It has a tech duct taping a bunch of old machines to keep them running >>longer. > > > I saw a Model 4 inside a box, impersonating a new portable. Right! I forgot that one. That was pretty funny! Joe > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox > >> Charles E. Fox Video Production > > 793 Argyle Rd. > Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 > 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net > Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" > at http://chasfoxvideo.com > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 6 07:51:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <006601c47bb1$4f1dd700$0c01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: DO NOT TRY THIS TODAY. During the mid/late 1980's I worked for a firm that made MIL-STD-1153B devices and test systems. AS some of you may know that standard is for a serial communication protocol used on many aircraft. Most of the time I would hand carry the items I was transporting if they were small to avoid any issues with "lost baggage". On one trip (domestic US travel), I was carring a portable test fixeure that was built into a ruggedized briefcase. This device was capable of running on battery and had lots f blinken lights and indicators. I had opened it up to give a demo to a fellow passenger [engineer for Boeing] and had left it on when a stewardess came by nd asked what it was. Without thinking I said "It is a device for controlling all of the electronics abort a modern airplane". She gave me a VERY strange look, and quickly dearted for the cockpit area. About 90 seconds later on of the light crew came back and sterny demanded I explain myself. Fortunately he was up to date and knew was MIL-STD-1553 was. He was actually interested and had me give him a quick demo (after he made a quick trip back to the cockpit to calm down the rest of the crew). While this incident turned out to be rather funny in retrospect, I shudder to think of what would/could happen in the post 9/11 world. [Or in travel thorugh other countries independent of era [don't even ask about the German Camera Incident....] David From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 6 08:25:27 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice Message-ID: <007b01c47bb8$d65c7940$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I was toying with going to vcf west in october. Is San Jose the closest convenient airport to fly into? Also, can someone recommend a cheap hotel close to the venue? Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 6 08:50:18 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice In-Reply-To: <007b01c47bb8$d65c7940$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Jay.... ....Not taking the trailer?????/???? [.....ducking running and hiding.....] >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West >>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 9:25 AM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: vcf west advice >>> >>> I was toying with going to vcf west in october. Is San Jose >>> the closest convenient airport to fly into? Also, can >>> someone recommend a cheap hotel close to the venue? >>> >>> Jay West >>> >>> --- >>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>> From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 6 08:56:11 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: SAGE as vaporware References: <1091738499.3840.72.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: <16659.36347.660000.901368@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> SAGE was a great pioneering thing, but here's a take that's Tom> likely not to be popular here. Les Earnest is a genuine Tom> greybeard, and appropriately crusty. Tom> http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/e2a.html It would be a much better article if it contained references supporting the claims, rather than just assertions without any backup. paul From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri Aug 6 09:30:51 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4113961B.780EF44E@compsys.to> >"Joe R." wrote: > I went to a HP Calculator conference in England about 6 or 7 years ago > (pre-9/11) and I carried a LOT of calculators, parts, accessories and tools > with me. I was very concerned about going through security and customs but > had almost no trouble. The ONLY thing they questioned was what was the > little thing that I had hanging off of a pair wires with nothing else > connected. (It was a tiny prototype blue chip LED that I'd connected two > wires to in order to power it up). Somehow they'd spotted it via X-ray or > something buried under everything else in the case and it aroused their > curiosity because it wasn't connected to anything. When I pulled out the > calculators and told them that I was going to a calculator conference I > expected a lot of questions but they acted like they could care less. Jerome Fine replies: December 30th, 1997 - Too much before even the Y2Y scares. I was flying from Toronto to Seoul via Chicago. The 4 PDP-11s (naturally - why else would I be going) were being used to check the fuel rods during a shutdown and the computers had been in a trailer over the winter. Since it was not an option to be missing anything needed to get the systems up and running, I had 2 small suitcases FULL of boards and disk drives, etc. Everything except the power supply in a BA23 box. I guess that each suitcase must have weighed about 30 lb. Since I had to hand carry the suitcases (not even any bubble wrap inside) and I was concerned that x-rays might affect the floppy media and perhaps even the hard drives, I asked for a visual inspection at security. While I had a letter stating my contract with AECL (Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.), I don't think security even asked to see it. In any case, I opened both suitcases and helped them look through all the junk, explaining that the floppy media and hard drives, let alone the EPROMs were sensitive to x-rays. There did not seem to be any real concern and the checking took only about a minute or two. Since there was virtually no electronics except for the PCB boards (which even these days are easily recognizable), I doubt that it would cause any more of a problem - as long as I had MUCH better documentation of who I was working for, etc. An employee would be expected to have some company ID, but I was on a one-time contract which would make identification more difficult. Can anyone comment as to what level of ID is helpful, in addition to a Passport and Driver's License, both with picture ID? Is company ID helpful as well when electronic stuff is carried? What about letters explaining the reason for the equipment? Since letters are easily made up, what about pre-clearance with security? How do security people get through security? Or maybe I should not even be asking that question? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 10:50:02 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409584B@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > > Computer Festival > > Sent: 05 August 2004 20:21 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: rarest computers > > > > On display until late October: > > > http://www.kahaku.go.jp/english/ > > I couldn't see anything about computer dinosaurs there, just dinosaur > bones :) Me neither, but it's there :) I don't know why they haven't updated their web pages because this is a huge exhibit (both in size and significance) and they put a lot of time, effort, and resources into it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 10:58:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 Date Changed to November 6-7 Message-ID: The date for VCF 7.0 has been changed to November 6-7. A more formal announcement is forthcoming. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 11:15:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > While this incident turned out to be rather funny in retrospect, I shudder > to think of what would/could happen in the post 9/11 world. [Or in travel > thorugh other countries independent of era [don't even ask about the German > Camera Incident....] Ok, tell us about the German Camera Incident. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 11:18:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > I went to a HP Calculator conference in England about 6 or 7 years ago > (pre-9/11) and I carried a LOT of calculators, parts, accessories and tools > with me. I was very concerned about going through security and customs but > had almost no trouble. The ONLY thing they questioned was what was the > little thing that I had hanging off of a pair wires with nothing else > connected. (It was a tiny prototype blue chip LED that I'd connected two > wires to in order to power it up). Somehow they'd spotted it via X-ray or > something buried under everything else in the case and it aroused their > curiosity because it wasn't connected to anything. When I pulled out the > calculators and told them that I was going to a calculator conference I > expected a lot of questions but they acted like they could care less. Which makes me wonder: are there so many nerds running around the world loaded down with suitcases filled with old computers, calculators, and electronics that the security personnel are unfazed by it? Or are they just numbed by sitting there 8 hours a day looking at the personal crap of thousands of people every day? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 11:19:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice In-Reply-To: <007b01c47bb8$d65c7940$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > I was toying with going to vcf west in october. Is San Jose the closest > convenient airport to fly into? Also, can someone recommend a cheap hotel > close to the venue? Yes, San Jose is the ideal airport to fly in to. I'll be working on a hotel within the next week or so. It'll probably be the same one as last year, which seemed to be very nice. Please note the date change: November 6-7. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Aug 6 11:35:27 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <4113961B.780EF44E@compsys.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040806123428.0340fe40@192.168.0.1> At 10:30 AM 8/6/2004, you wrote: >Can anyone comment as to what level of ID is helpful, in addition >to a Passport and Driver's License, both with picture ID? Is >company ID helpful as well when electronic stuff is carried? >What about letters explaining the reason for the equipment? >Since letters are easily made up, what about pre-clearance >with security? How do security people get through security? >Or maybe I should not even be asking that question? You might want to get a carnet. Was doing a job for BNFL at Sellafield and it was handy for bringing my test equipment in - and out. http://www.atacarnet.com/ata-carnet-info.htm Ed From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Aug 6 13:02:06 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <200408061635.i76GZMbY031484@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408061635.i76GZMbY031484@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 11:35 -0500 8/6/04, jhfinexgs2@compsys.to wrote: < ...compsys.to ?? cool, is Toronto its own nation now, or what? >Can anyone comment as to what level of ID is helpful, in addition >to a Passport and Driver's License, both with picture ID? Is >company ID helpful as well when electronic stuff is carried? Southwest Research Institute periodically has engineers transporting spacecraft power boxes, compute boxes, and scientific instruments. We cause minor headaches at security because many of these are contamination sensitive and want to stay inside of their dry-nitrogen-backfilled sealed ESD bags. The engineers carry drivers' licenses and passports (where applicable) and letters on SwRI or NASA letterhead and a contact number at SwRI for security to call and verify they are who they say they are. YMMV, but we have rarely if ever had problems. But then, we all look like geeks anyway (Mike Gemeny, you can confirm this with your brother :-) ). We do call security in advance, but since there's usually a shift change before we arrive, I think it rarely makes any difference. >How do security people get through security? >Or maybe I should not even be asking that question? Can't help with that. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 6 13:22:25 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice References: Message-ID: <007501c47be2$531077b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote... > ....Not taking the trailer?????/???? > > [.....ducking running and hiding.....] *blank look* well, I just assumed any modern commercial aircraft would have a trailer hitch on the back, right? Jay From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 6 13:24:52 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice In-Reply-To: <007501c47be2$531077b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Aug 6, 04 01:22:25 pm Message-ID: <200408061824.OAA27209@wordstock.com> And thusly Jay West spake: > > David wrote... > > ....Not taking the trailer?????/???? > > > > [.....ducking running and hiding.....] > > *blank look* well, I just assumed any modern commercial aircraft would have > a trailer hitch on the back, right? > But they expect you to supply your own wings on your trailer... ;) Cheers, Bryan From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Aug 6 13:42:22 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice In-Reply-To: <007501c47be2$531077b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > *blank look* well, I just assumed any modern commercial aircraft would have > a trailer hitch on the back, right? Only the freighters, Jay, not the passenger transporters. Geez, why did you think they differentiate between em? Right, the hitch! --f From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Aug 6 13:51:10 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <200408061851.i76IpAHt007258@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Well last year I travelled (from the US) to Europe with a suitcase full of de-commissioned computers (incl. a Sun Ultra 1 which filled most of the suitcase) and spare parts (about 5-8 year old stuff). Since I couldn't care less about eproms or other media, I just let it go through the normal checked luggage check. The suitcase was not locked (as per guidelines) and I know they opened it (not in my presence, so I don't really know how much time they spent looking though it), but nobody said anything to me about it, and the suitcase went through without any problems. If you are packing clothing with the equipment (as padding or to save carrying a second suitcase) I would advise you to pack them in transparent plastic bags, so that the checkers can go through them without spilling them all over the floor. Also avoid small unpacked items that can fall off the suitcase during the visual inspection process. Finally remember that the people carrying out the inspection will not use the same care as you in putting everything back in the suitcase, so leave some extra space to accommodate the (less efficient) re-packing. If your suitcase is a jigsaw with everything required to be packed just right for the suitcase to close, then expect to see a mess at your destination. I remember that while I was waiting to check in at the Philadelphia International Airport I could see TSA staff trying to close an opened suitcase. Now that was a royal mess, with clothing sticking out from all sides and the suitcase refusing to come anywhere near to closing. Eventually the just closed the two halves as much as they could and used plastic wrap to keep the insides from spilling over. I bet the owners would freak out, especially if they had clean and ironed clothing **vp From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 13:50:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040806123428.0340fe40@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > You might want to get a carnet. > Was doing a job for BNFL at Sellafield and it was handy for bringing my > test equipment in - and out. > > http://www.atacarnet.com/ata-carnet-info.htm Interesting! Thanks for the tip. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 14:40:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <200408061851.i76IpAHt007258@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > Well last year I travelled (from the US) to Europe with a suitcase full > of de-commissioned computers (incl. a Sun Ultra 1 which filled most of > the suitcase) and spare parts (about 5-8 year old stuff). Since I > couldn't care less about eproms or other media, I just let it go > through the normal checked luggage check. The suitcase was not locked > (as per guidelines) and I know they opened it (not in my presence, so I > don't really know how much time they spent looking though it), but > nobody said anything to me about it, and the suitcase went through > without any problems. Sending a computer through checked baggage doesn't even elicit an errant brainwave. > If you are packing clothing with the equipment (as padding or to save > carrying a second suitcase) I would advise you to pack them in > transparent plastic bags, so that the checkers can go through them > without spilling them all over the floor. Also avoid small unpacked > items that can fall off the suitcase during the visual inspection > process. You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag saying they did. My bags are always checked by the TSA. They always seem to put things back in place as I packed them (well, except for my radio). > Finally remember that the people carrying out the inspection will not > use the same care as you in putting everything back in the suitcase, so > leave some extra space to accommodate the (less efficient) re-packing. > If your suitcase is a jigsaw with everything required to be packed just > right for the suitcase to close, then expect to see a mess at your > destination. I haven't had this problem at all. > I remember that while I was waiting to check in at the Philadelphia > International Airport I could see TSA staff trying to close an opened > suitcase. Now that was a royal mess, with clothing sticking out from > all sides and the suitcase refusing to come anywhere near to closing. > Eventually the just closed the two halves as much as they could and > used plastic wrap to keep the insides from spilling over. I bet the > owners would freak out, especially if they had clean and ironed > clothing Sounds like a case of incompetent morons. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Aug 6 12:22:46 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <4113961B.780EF44E@compsys.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040806132025.0248d548@192.168.0.1> At 10:30 AM 8/6/2004, you wrote: >I was flying from Toronto to Seoul via Chicago. The 4 PDP-11s >(naturally - why else would I be going) were being used to check >the fuel rods during a shutdown and the computers had been in >a trailer over the winter. Sold an 11/84 and RC25 to KNFC in 1996 for their gamma scanner. Had to get the RC25 converted to handle their AC power IIRC. Ed From anheier at owt.com Fri Aug 6 15:08:08 2004 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: STD Bus boards anyone? Message-ID: <55AAD48E-E7E4-11D8-A90A-0050E4E0C16B@owt.com> I have the follow STD boards with user manuals. These are spare boards from a system and are in excellent shape. I am looking for $15 each or $40 for all plus shipping. 1. Pro-log model 7606 parallel I/O care 2. Enlode Inc. Model 200-1 realtime clock and prog. interrupt gen. 3. Datricon, model ANA10 analog I/O card 4. Cubit, model 7040 CRT controller (two styles of boards) thanks Norm From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Aug 6 15:13:23 2004 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Here's a #1 tip on cleaning computers Message-ID: <1cc.27cc7d7c.2e454063@aol.com> Rescued a complete Atari Mega 2 from work that was getting thrown out. It was quite dirty being on a mailroom production floor. Anyway, my wife told me about these Mr Clean magic eraser things and they do the best job with cleaning just about anything. It got this Atari nice and clean, sun damage notwithstanding. These eraser things clean off china marker, smoke stains, dirty fingerprints, grease, permanent marker, and just plain dirt. They work perfectly on textured surfaces like plastic computers and car interiors and has not harmed anything I have used it on. I don't know how it works since it's a sponge of some sort, but give it a try. Better than any spray cleaning product I've ever used. From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Aug 6 15:17:44 2004 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Some DEC freebies Message-ID: <4113E768.3060505@arrl.net> All of this stuff is going to Goodwill on Monday, so, if you are in the Houston area .... Alpha XL366 +kbd+mouse VT320 +manual VT420 +manual (3) LK401 (1) LK201 TZ86 tape drive Carton of misc DEC Docs+manuals Carton of (mostly) DEC branded cables (4) DEC cdrom+tape drives External DEC RRD42 ......... no shipping! -nick 0 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 6 15:42:11 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: vcf west advice In-Reply-To: <007b01c47bb8$d65c7940$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <007b01c47bb8$d65c7940$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20040806134052.S8685@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > I was toying with going to vcf west in october. Is San Jose the closest > convenient airport to fly into? Also, can someone recommend a cheap hotel > close to the venue? If you go to vcf west in october, then you will have enough time to take the trailer, because it has been pushed back a few weeks. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 15:37:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:56 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <4113961B.780EF44E@compsys.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806163734.0095c4b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:30 AM 8/6/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Can anyone comment as to what level of ID is helpful, in addition >to a Passport and Driver's License, both with picture ID? I used to travel frequently for my job as an aerospace engineer for Martin Marietta. When I traveled outside the US I was given security briefings and warnings that were much more in depth than what the general public gets. One of the things that I was specificly warned about was NOT to carry anything that would identify me as an employee of a military contractor or any id from any government agency. They were afraid that if we were hijacked and the hijackers found the id then we'd be in for a LOT of trouble. In addition if we were taken to a not so friendly country we could be held by that country while they tried to pick our brains (forceably!) I used to carry my Canadian birth certificate as well as my US one and the Canadian one would usually get me into (or out of!) any place that the US one wouldn't. I generally found that a company id didn't help much with customs. They never seemed to be impressed. They were more receptive to the idea that I was a computer or calculator collector and that was why I was carrying around all that odd junk. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 16:00:46 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <4113961B.780EF44E@compsys.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806170046.00964bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:30 AM 8/6/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Can anyone comment as to what level of ID is helpful, in addition >to a Passport and Driver's License, both with picture ID? I used to travel frequently for my job as an aerospace engineer for Martin Marietta. When I traveled outside the US I was given security briefings and warnings that were much more in depth than what the general public gets. One of the things that I was specificly warned about was NOT to carry anything that would identify me as an employee of a military contractor or any id from any government agency. They were afraid that if we were hijacked and the hijackers found the id then we'd be in for a LOT of trouble. In addition if we were taken to a not so friendly country we could be held by that country while they tried to pick our brains (forceably!) I used to carry my Canadian birth certificate as well as my US one and the Canadian one would usually get me into (or out of!) any place that the US one wouldn't. I generally found that a company id didn't help much with customs. They never seemed to be impressed. They were more receptive to the idea that I was a computer or calculator collector and that was why I was carrying around all that odd junk. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 15:39:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806163932.00960200@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:18 AM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> I went to a HP Calculator conference in England about 6 or 7 years ago >> (pre-9/11) and I carried a LOT of calculators, parts, accessories and tools >> with me. I was very concerned about going through security and customs but >> had almost no trouble. The ONLY thing they questioned was what was the >> little thing that I had hanging off of a pair wires with nothing else >> connected. (It was a tiny prototype blue chip LED that I'd connected two >> wires to in order to power it up). Somehow they'd spotted it via X-ray or >> something buried under everything else in the case and it aroused their >> curiosity because it wasn't connected to anything. When I pulled out the >> calculators and told them that I was going to a calculator conference I >> expected a lot of questions but they acted like they could care less. > >Which makes me wonder: are there so many nerds running around the world >loaded down with suitcases filled with old computers, calculators, and >electronics that the security personnel are unfazed by it? I think you hit the nail on the head. They figure that you're just another Nerd. Joe > >Or are they just numbed by sitting there 8 hours a day looking at the >personal crap of thousands of people every day? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 15:58:35 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <200408061851.i76IpAHt007258@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:40 PM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > >> Well last year I travelled (from the US) to Europe with a suitcase full >> of de-commissioned computers (incl. a Sun Ultra 1 which filled most of >> the suitcase) and spare parts (about 5-8 year old stuff). Since I >> couldn't care less about eproms or other media, I just let it go >> through the normal checked luggage check. The suitcase was not locked >> (as per guidelines) and I know they opened it (not in my presence, so I >> don't really know how much time they spent looking though it), but >> nobody said anything to me about it, and the suitcase went through >> without any problems. > >Sending a computer through checked baggage doesn't even elicit an errant >brainwave. > >> If you are packing clothing with the equipment (as padding or to save >> carrying a second suitcase) I would advise you to pack them in >> transparent plastic bags, so that the checkers can go through them >> without spilling them all over the floor. Also avoid small unpacked >> items that can fall off the suitcase during the visual inspection >> process. > >You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag >saying they did. I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. OK I may as well tell this story too. I was in KC and went scrounging with Gary Hildebrand and found a black Bell and Howell Apple II. I had called the airline and changed my departure two days ahead of time. But they failed to schedule the new departure so when I got to the airport UNSCHEDULED the red flags went up and I was tagged to be inspected everywhere that I went. Luckily I arrived at the airport about 6 hours early. I had to take EVERYTHING and go down to security and let them inspect it (hence the LONG wait). I/they didn't have a problem with anything but the Apple II and were going to send me to the maintenance area and have them disassemble and inspect the Apple. Sheeshh! I said "Hey wait a minute it opens right up" and showed them how to open the top so they could look inside it. After that they were happy (until I got to the next checkpoint!) I asked why they didn't just X=ray the Apple II and he said that they were afraid that it might conceal plastic knives or something that wouldn't show up on X-ray. I don't know why it would have mattered since I was putting the computer in checked baggage but no one ever said that logic or brains were required at TSA. Important Lesson: NEVER show up at an airport with a confirmed reservation! If you do, you're guaranteed to get the full treatment! Joe My bags are always checked by the TSA. They always seem >to put things back in place as I packed them (well, except for my radio). > >> Finally remember that the people carrying out the inspection will not >> use the same care as you in putting everything back in the suitcase, so >> leave some extra space to accommodate the (less efficient) re-packing. >> If your suitcase is a jigsaw with everything required to be packed just >> right for the suitcase to close, then expect to see a mess at your >> destination. > >I haven't had this problem at all. > >> I remember that while I was waiting to check in at the Philadelphia >> International Airport I could see TSA staff trying to close an opened >> suitcase. Now that was a royal mess, with clothing sticking out from >> all sides and the suitcase refusing to come anywhere near to closing. >> Eventually the just closed the two halves as much as they could and >> used plastic wrap to keep the insides from spilling over. I bet the >> owners would freak out, especially if they had clean and ironed >> clothing > >Sounds like a case of incompetent morons. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 6 16:01:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: what is the value Message-ID: <200408062101.OAA00554@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I know someone that has a 11/45. I've been thinking of making an offer on it but have no idea what people consider the going rate for such a machine. Does anyone have any idea? I don't want to insult him but then I don't want to pay way beyond what I could get one elsewhere. Dwight From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 16:07:40 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Who has Zilog System 8000/32 Message-ID: <20040806210740.8854.qmail@web51810.mail.yahoo.com> which uses AT&T WE32100 CPU? I have a small gift for you if you have such a system. vax, 3900 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 16:08:23 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Who has Zilog System 8000/32 Message-ID: <20040806210823.16813.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> which uses AT&T WE32100 CPU? I have a small gift for you if you have such a system. vax, 3900 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 16:14:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag > >saying they did. > > I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent > abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened > numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when > flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. Have you flown recently? This is standard practice as of at least 5 weeks ago. I know of what you speak, however, as I went through that nonsense myself on plenty of occasions. They are not doing that anymore. I don't know if it's because they have much better scanners at work now or if they just do all the checking behind the scenes. > Important Lesson: NEVER show up at an airport with a confirmed > reservation! If you do, you're guaranteed to get the full treatment! It also triggers alarms if you book a one way flight the same day you travel and pay cash. I'm sure it doesn't help if you're Arabic. I did this one time and got a personal escort to the security area. I thought I was special until they gave my bags extra scrutiny when I got to the gate. I asked one of the attendants if I was flagged and she said, "I'm not supposed to tell you but yes." This was 1997 or so. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Aug 6 17:03:28 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > > I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent > > abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened > > numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when > > flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Have you flown recently? This is standard practice as of at least 5 weeks > ago. I flew home (New Zealand) in March, returning in May of this year, and the TSA people were pretty anal retentive about stickering everything they opened. In the Air New Zealand "terminal" at LAX you can watch them pull peoples baggage apart, in fact. (They did so to my suit foldover, apparently the single metal coathanger in there looks like some kind of weapon I guess, C'est la vie). JP From ohh at drizzle.com Fri Aug 6 17:08:36 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: what is the value In-Reply-To: <200408062101.OAA00554@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: Quoth Dwight K. Elvey: > I know someone that has a 11/45. I've been thinking > of making an offer on it but have no idea what people > consider the going rate for such a machine. Does > anyone have any idea? I don't want to insult him > but then I don't want to pay way beyond what I could > get one elsewhere. I'm not sure there is an objective answer to that question; some people wouldn't let a vintage DEC machine go unless there are several thousand dollars involved, while others actually will give them away to good homes (or, in one horrible instance I was too late to prevent, actually just throw the machine into a dumpster because "it's so old nobody could _possibly_ have a use for it"... and this was an 11/45 in a pedestal-mount case, damn, damn, damn). I suspect the best approach is to offer what you think the machine is worth to _you_. Some people may feel slighted, others may think you're being idiotically generous, but in the end if you're making an offer which seems reasonable and fair to you it's probably safe ground. I think the value of these machines to various people is so subjective that it's hard to give any good answer without knowing everything about them... but you _can_ know what it's worth to you, so it's probably best to start there and hope for the best. (...Listen! Is that the sweet whisper of the "someone-should-write-a- -price-guide-for-vintage-computers" thread coming our way?...) -O.- (...If it is, run! _Run!_...) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 18:02:18 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806190218.0091ed90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:14 PM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> >You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag >> >saying they did. >> >> I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent >> abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened >> numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when >> flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. > >Have you flown recently? No and I have no intentions of flying as long as this crap continues. I have a very low treshold for BS! So don't expect to see me at VCF or anywhere else if it involves flying. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 17:36:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection In-Reply-To: <20040806041816.GA20329@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 6, 4 04:18:16 am Message-ID: > or disk/tape drives that work with it... I mean... I like VMS and I've been > using it for 20 years, but unless I want to plug in a particular peripheral, > I'd rather run a desk-top-sized machine than a rack, just for power/heat > reasons (for the record, I use the 8300 because I have a stack of VAXBI For an alternative viewpoint, the only VAXen I'd want to run at home are the 11/730 and the 11/780 family (11/780, 11/782, 11/785). The reason is those are the only ones I can actually understand the internals of -- they're built from standard chips (non-protected PALs in the 11/730, admittedly), rather than custom gate arrays or worse). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 17:45:54 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 6, 4 08:51:13 am Message-ID: > > DO NOT TRY THIS TODAY. Don't try this either.... About 12 year ago I took a DEC rainbow on a train in England. This involved putting the LK201 keyboard in the inside pocket of my raincoat, stuffing cables and floppies into the other inside pocket of said coat, carrying the CPU box under one arm and carrying the VR201 monitor in my other hand... I ahd checked that there were not rules preventing me from taking such a device on the train. Said rules didn't actually mention computers, but portable TVs were OK, and there was nothing about the 'bow that was more dangerous than a TV (the most dangerous bit, IMHO, was the CRT, which would be the same in both the VR201 and a similar-sized TV). Anyway, I noticed that the VR201, carried by its handle, screen-down looked a bit like a mine (the explosive type). So I made up some signs which read 'Danger Implosives' and stuck them on the sides of the VR201. I got some very odd looks.... As I said, don't try this today... -tony From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 18:16:12 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel Message-ID: <20040806231612.86192.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Jay and others -- last year I stayed at the Comfort Inn, at 1561 West El Camino Real, in Mountain View. It wasn't exactly luxorius (no restaurant, though there are a million places to eat on El Camino), but it was cheap, had high-speed Internet, and was very convenient to the CHM (where VCF is). My favorite amenity: there is a movie-theatre style hot popcorn machine in the lobby, and the popcorn is free. Of course if Sellam gets us a discount rate at a Marriott, such as at VCF East, I imagine that would be much nicer than the Comfort Inn... From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 18:17:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Who has Zilog System 8000/32 In-Reply-To: <20040806210740.8854.qmail@web51810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > which uses AT&T WE32100 CPU? I have a small gift for > you if you have such a system. I've got one (System 8000). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 18:20:34 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: PS / RE: VCF West hotel Message-ID: <20040806232034.62569.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Do NOT stay at the Pacific Lodge Hotel. That's also right on El Camino. I had my original reservation there last year, and left after the first night because it was a total dive. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 18:20:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806190218.0091ed90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > No and I have no intentions of flying as long as this crap continues. I > have a very low treshold for BS! So don't expect to see me at VCF or > anywhere else if it involves flying. I don't blame you. It does seem to be improving though. For now at least... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 6 19:00:58 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: "Joe R." "Re: Holy cow..." (Aug 6, 8:32) References: <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10408070100.ZM9240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 6, 8:32, Joe R. wrote: > I went to a HP Calculator conference in England about 6 or 7 years ago > (pre-9/11) and I carried a LOT of calculators, parts, accessories and tools > with me. I was very concerned about going through security and customs but > had almost no trouble. I've not had any trouble recently, but here are three instances from the past. I used to fly regularly from Edinburgh to Belfast in Northern Ireland, or to London. On one occasion I was taking a pre-production Acorn Archimedes to demo in Belfast, but since I was flying I didn't take the monitor. Needless to say, that was the time security (actually, Special Branch) asked if they could see it working to prove it was a computer (didn't look quite like a PC), and eventually I had to dismantle it to persuade them. Once (late 1980s) I was travelling to Belfast with just a briefcase and small shoulder bag; in the shoulder bag was my toilet bag, spare shirt, socks, etc. In the toilet bag was the usual toothbrush, etc and a teaspoon and a small scalpel. The young lady operating the security scanner took about a 5 millisecond glance at the blurry image and said would I "mind leaving the scalpel behind, please." We compromised -- she kept the (detachable) blade. Last one: travelling from London back to Edinburgh I arrived with just a few moments to spare, only to be stopped by security who spotted my small toolcase in my bag. All the tools were OK, though they insisted on pulling most of them out, but they took everything out of the small side pocket until they found a small ziplock bag containing the rather grubby damp sponge for my soldering iron. "Would you mind telling me what this substance is, sir?" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 19:12:12 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <3930712.1091837533311.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> my job takes me a lot of different places. Two years ago, yes, TSA was not as organized or as efficient as today. They are doing a necessary job to keep planes flying and people going where they want to go. Due to the fact that I worked for TSA two years ago, I am very familiar with what they have gone through. Now, all you do is check your bags in and they open them only if their MRI machine spots something with enough mass to potentially be a problem. They don't make you wait in line much longer now than you did before TSA was there. Passenger screening is also very efficient at most large airports anyway. They started with the notes inside when they quit having you stand in front of them while they checked your bags. I haven't been through any in the last year that did it the old way. As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer than welcome another attack on US soil because things weren't being checked. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Joe R." Sent: Aug 6, 2004 7:02 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Holy cow... At 02:14 PM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> >You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag >> >saying they did. >> >> I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent >> abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened >> numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when >> flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. > >Have you flown recently? No and I have no intentions of flying as long as this crap continues. I have a very low treshold for BS! So don't expect to see me at VCF or anywhere else if it involves flying. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 19:34:27 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <10408070100.ZM9240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Joe R." <"Re: Holy cow..."@tampabay.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040806083251.00963180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806203427.00917690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:00 AM 8/7/04 +0100, you wrote: >On Aug 6, 8:32, Joe R. wrote: >> I went to a HP Calculator conference in England about 6 or 7 years >ago >> (pre-9/11) and I carried a LOT of calculators, parts, accessories and >tools >> with me. I was very concerned about going through security and >customs but >> had almost no trouble. > >I've not had any trouble recently, but here are three instances from >the past. I used to fly regularly from Edinburgh to Belfast in >Northern Ireland, or to London. > >On one occasion I was taking a pre-production Acorn Archimedes to demo >in Belfast, but since I was flying I didn't take the monitor. Needless >to say, that was the time security (actually, Special Branch) asked if >they could see it working to prove it was a computer (didn't look quite >like a PC), and eventually I had to dismantle it to persuade them. I bought one of the first laptops on the market and took it with me to Canada when I was working there in 1984. On the way back to the US security stoped me and wanted to inspect everything. They wanted me to boot up the laptop to prove that it was a computer and not just an empty case with god-knows what inside. I got it out of the case and opened the screen and turned it on. After it went througgh POST it tried to boot but there wasn't a disk in the floppy drive so instead it said "Invalid Operating System, Press any key to continue" or something to that effect. I thought "Oh Shit! I'm going to have to fight with thse guys now!" but one of the security officers saw it and simply said "Yeap, that's a computer!" > >Once (late 1980s) I was travelling to Belfast with just a briefcase and >small shoulder bag; in the shoulder bag was my toilet bag, spare shirt, >socks, etc. In the toilet bag was the usual toothbrush, etc and a >teaspoon and a small scalpel. The young lady operating the security >scanner took about a 5 millisecond glance at the blurry image and said >would I "mind leaving the scalpel behind, please." We compromised -- >she kept the (detachable) blade. My wife travels A LOT for her job. She and I are both blind as bats without our glasses so one of the things that she carries in her purse is one of the small eye glass repair kits with a few assorted glasses screws and a TINY screw driver. You know the kind, the blade is about 1/8" long and 1/64" wide. Last summer when she went through airport security they searched her purse and siezed her screw driver since it was a "deadly weapon"! Joe > >Last one: travelling from London back to Edinburgh I arrived with just >a few moments to spare, only to be stopped by security who spotted my >small toolcase in my bag. All the tools were OK, though they insisted >on pulling most of them out, but they took everything out of the small >side pocket until they found a small ziplock bag containing the rather >grubby damp sponge for my soldering iron. "Would you mind telling me >what this substance is, sir?" > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 6 19:38:08 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3930712.1091837533311.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <3930712.1091837533311.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200408070046.UAA14319@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Have you flown recently? >> No and I have no intentions of flying as long as this crap >> continues. I have a very low treshold for BS! So don't expect to >> see me at VCF or anywhere else if it involves flying. > As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer > than welcome another attack on US soil because things weren't being > checked. I suppose not being so belligerent a society/country as to invite such attacks is out of the question. No, I still call it BS. Most of the measures taken are more about giving an appearance of security than the reality, and as for most of the rest - "those who would give up a little freedom for a little security deserve, and will soon have, neither". Some of the things I've had blocked as putative weapons, really, I'm sorry, my own hands would be more lethal. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 19:49:33 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3930712.1091837533311.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earth link.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806204933.00915180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:12 PM 8/6/04 -0400, you wrote: >my job takes me a lot of different places. Two years ago, yes, TSA was not as organized or as efficient as today. They are doing a necessary job to keep planes flying and people going where they want to go. Due to the fact that I worked for TSA two years ago, I am very familiar with what they have gone through. Now, all you do is check your bags in and they open them only if their MRI machine spots something with enough mass to potentially be a problem. They don't make you wait in line much longer now than you did before TSA was there. Passenger screening is also very efficient at most large airports anyway. They started with the notes inside when they quit having you stand in front of them while they checked your bags. I haven't been through any in the last year that did it the old way. > >As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer than welcome another attack on US soil because things weren't being checked. It is BS when 10 million illegal Mexicans and others can simply walk across the border and enter (and stay) the US. And lets not even get into how many TONs of drugs are shipped into the US everyday. I live near one of the busiest airports in the US (OIA) and there's hardly a week goes by that I don't hear of a bust at OIA or Miami or some other majot airport where baggage handlers are smuggling in TONS of illlegal drugs, weapons, animals and other material. A recent check at OIA revealed that there were several HUNDRED badges missing that would allow anyone with one of them to get into the secure areas of the airport. INS recently raided Miami airport and arrested allmost 50 baggage handlers that were illegal aliens yet they still had access to secure areas of the airport. I could go on and on but my point is that the passengers being screened and harassed over and over but there are PLENTY of other areas in the airports, ports and borders of this country where security is non-existant! If 10+ million mexicans can walk across the border don't you think 10 terrorists can do the same thing? Security is one thing but mindless, pointless inspections and taking away things like eye glass screwdrivers is something else altogether. Joe > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Joe R." >Sent: Aug 6, 2004 7:02 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: Holy cow... > >At 02:14 PM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: >>On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: >> >>> >You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag >>> >saying they did. >>> >>> I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent >>> abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened >>> numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when >>> flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. >> >>Have you flown recently? > > No and I have no intentions of flying as long as this crap continues. I >have a very low treshold for BS! So don't expect to see me at VCF or >anywhere else if it involves flying. > > Joe > > > From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 19:59:55 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later last year. The people that are there are doing their job and are not given the ability to make decisions and exceptions on their own. People making exceptions and doing their own security thing on 9/11 resulted in thousands of dead people. Sure, the borders need to be protected better, but at least a person running into the side of a building will only give the person a headache. Of course, I would suppsoe that he would sue the buiding manufacturer and win because there is no sign warning someone of getting hurt if they do that... As for missing badges, most security systems require the badge and an ID code to enter, so just having a badge doesn't help much unless security is already lax at the airport. People are to badge in, enter their code, and then close the door so the next person does the same procedure. If Miami is ruuning that badly then there is a good problem to start with. Steve From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 6 18:27:28 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: what is the value References: Message-ID: <000001c47c1b$25600ef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Re: 11/45 I suspect if a nice DEC rack with 11/45 and peripherals showed up on ebay, it would easily go over $1000, possibly almost $2000. I'd hazzard a guess at $1500. One can argue if this is the "value" or not, but regardless, I suspect that's what it would go for on ebay. On the other hand... I was a lucky one and got my 11/45 for $100. Of course I had to drive 600 miles round trip to get it. Far as I'm concerned, I got an incredible deal. I asked the guy what he wanted for it and he said "I want a little for my trouble, but mainly want it to go to a good home". As a new starting collector, with NO systems at all... I was given my very first system by a fellow collector - he used to be on this list. A PDP-8E, Rack, TU-56, and PC-05 (yes, an 05, not an 04), all in pretty darn nice condition. Also got a box or two of spare cards. The price - Free. He even drove halfway to get it to me. Ebay prices are funny though - for a while a given item will fetch a kings ransome, then just a few weeks later, the same item goes several times for 1/10th of the past 3 auctions. Look at the HP suitcase singleboard computers. I've seen them go for well over a hundred. Not just once, but many times. Then I saw many go WELL under a hundred, some weren't even bid on. I'm halfway interested in one of these by the way ;) I guess if it were me, I'd offer the guy $300 if it includes peripherals (mine didn't). That's certainly not a "slap in the face", and not a ridiculously large amount either. Just my 2 milli-dollars worth. Jay West From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Aug 6 20:54:08 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection In-Reply-To: References: <20040806041816.GA20329@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040807015408.GA23185@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 11:36:26PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > or disk/tape drives that work with it... I mean... I like VMS and I've been > > using it for 20 years, but unless I want to plug in a particular peripheral, > > I'd rather run a desk-top-sized machine than a rack, just for power/heat > > reasons (for the record, I use the 8300 because I have a stack of VAXBI > > > For an alternative viewpoint, the only VAXen I'd want to run at home are > the 11/730 and the 11/780 family (11/780, 11/782, 11/785). The reason is > those are the only ones I can actually understand the internals of -- > they're built from standard chips (non-protected PALs in the 11/730, > admittedly), rather than custom gate arrays or worse). That's a fair argument. I was happy to get an 11/725 again last year (I used to have one that I loaned to a "friend" who neglected to tell me that his company was being sold and it went out the door to the new owners. By the time I learned about it, it was too late). I've never had the chance to work with any of the 11/780 family. I know about them academically, but not personally. If I had to choose, though, I'd probably pick an 11/730 or 11/725 over the larger systems, even though there's a serious difference in memory capacity and horsepower, just because of power/heat issues. Of course, if I had a MASSBUS disk or tape I needed to fiddle with, that makes the choice for me. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 07-Aug-2004 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.3 F (-58.0 C) Windchill -122 F (-85.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 23.3 kts Grid 032 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Aug 6 21:03:05 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Furguson BigBoard... Message-ID: <41143859.1050300@tiac.net> Some time back, someone (Tom?) got a Furguson BigBoard from me in a trade. I've found a little documentation and the distribution CP/M disk. I'd like to send this stuff off to the board's new owner. (was this part of the Imlac deal maybe???) From sanepsycho at globaldialog.com Fri Aug 6 20:56:37 2004 From: sanepsycho at globaldialog.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1091843797.3352.28.camel@azure> On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 19:59, Steve Thatcher wrote: > eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later last year. The people that are there are doing their job and are not given the ability to make decisions and exceptions on their own. People making exceptions and doing their own security thing on 9/11 resulted in thousands of dead people. No, what actually caused the deaths is people being taught to be passive sheep in case of a hijacking. The about of security required to prevent something like 9/11 from happening would make Nazi Germany look a bastion of freedom. I'm not saying some steps should not be done, but I have to agree with what others have voiced that about the only thing that the TSA does is put forth the apprearance of security. > Sure, the borders need to be protected better, but at least a person running into the side of a building will only give the person a headache. Of course, I would suppsoe that he would sue the buiding manufacturer and win because there is no sign warning someone of getting hurt if they do that... It's an impossible job to secure the borders well enough to prevent any small motivated group from sneaking in, and once in it's easy enough to blend in. There are probably more ways to kill or mame a large number of people than anybody can plan against. Then the question comes as what is the effect on society and the economy of the country as a result of the measures put in place. ::sigh:: This is so far off topic for this list that this thread probably should die. Paul > As for missing badges, most security systems require the badge and an ID code to enter, so just having a badge doesn't help much unless security is already lax at the airport. People are to badge in, enter their code, and then close the door so the next person does the same procedure. > > If Miami is ruuning that badly then there is a good problem to start with. What about all the small commercial aviation airports with no security? last I talked to somebody that flew private planes (about a year ago) it was easy to fly from a small county airport and bypass all the security in regional airport. Paul From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 21:01:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <10408070100.ZM9240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > small toolcase in my bag. All the tools were OK, though they insisted > on pulling most of them out, but they took everything out of the small > side pocket until they found a small ziplock bag containing the rather > grubby damp sponge for my soldering iron. "Would you mind telling me > what this substance is, sir?" You should've told them it was the sponge you and your wife used the night before during sex and you were taking it for testing. (Sorry, I could not resist on this one :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 6 21:21:57 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: what is the value In-Reply-To: <200408062101.OAA00554@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408062101.OAA00554@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200408062221.57336.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 06 August 2004 17:01, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I know someone that has a 11/45. I've been thinking > of making an offer on it but have no idea what people > consider the going rate for such a machine. Does > anyone have any idea? I don't want to insult him > but then I don't want to pay way beyond what I could > get one elsewhere. When I got ride of mine (3 CPU/s 6 drives in 2 racks) I made him drive 500 miles , take a 2 Pyramids, and leave me a coco 3. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBFDzFLPrIaE/xBZARAlPBAKCuhjRQEeKsNPJFDKD5pdxWs3yy2gCff56+ 2FAWmDH7zRiSzjdSrXH3Fcw= =W78e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 21:35:51 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Who has Zilog System 8000/32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040807023551.80920.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > which uses AT&T WE32100 CPU? I have a small gift > for > > you if you have such a system. > > I've got one (System 8000). OK, you get my almost new, never used bottle opener with the logo "The NEW SYSTEM 8000/32, Zilog systems division" on it. give me your address off-line, and I will mail it to you for free. vax, 3900 > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || > Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 22:29:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Who has Zilog System 8000/32 In-Reply-To: <20040807023551.80920.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > which uses AT&T WE32100 CPU? I have a small gift > > for > > > you if you have such a system. > > > > I've got one (System 8000). > OK, you get my almost new, never used bottle opener > with the logo "The NEW SYSTEM 8000/32, Zilog systems > division" on it. give me your address off-line, and I > will mail it to you for free. Now I can drink beer in nerdy style! Totally awesome!! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 22:34:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? Message-ID: I just got an HP9000 K Class K570 server. It's got dual 200Mhz PA-RISC processors and 1GB RAM, plus some arsenal of hard drives. I've never worked with HP PA-RISC machines before. What's this equivalent to in terms of Intel processor power? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 22:38:38 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthli nk.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:59 PM 8/6/04 -0400, Steve wrote: >eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later last year. I'm glad to hear that. But they shouldn't have been on the list to begin with! That's one of my points, airport security is nothing but a show to make the public think the government is actually doing somehting about security. But all too much of it is meaningless and useless measures such as this. Eyeglass screwderivers and nail files have never been a threat to an airliner that I know of! BTW metal toothpicks ARE still on the list of "weapons". Can you tell me exactly how many airliners have been hijacked with a toothpick? > The people that are there are doing their job and are not given the ability to make decisions and exceptions on their own. People making >exceptions and doing their own security thing on 9/11 resulted in thousands of dead people. WRONG! The airport security people did exactly what they were supposed to do according to the rules at that time. The 9/11 commishion found where many mistakes were made, particularly in the intelligence area but to my knowledge they found no procedural errors in what security did. They actually found that some security people were suspious of the hijackers but allowed them to board the planes because they were NOT allowed to use their own judgement and had to follow fixed idiocic rules. > >Sure, the borders need to be protected better, but at least a person running into the side of a building will only give the person a headache. Wait a minute! What's this crap about running into buildings? Why don't you stay on topic? A number of the 9/11 hijackers came over from Canada the day before they hijacked the airliners on 9/11 yet you dismiss border security my merely saying that the borders need to be better protected and then jump to some totally irrelevent rambling about people running into buildings. Our borders should be our first line of defense against terrorism but they're wide open to even the most illiterate Mexican peasant to simply walk across. It's a good thing that Alqueda doesn't wise up and simply walk in 10,000 or so terrorists across the Canadian or Mexican borders. >Of course, I would suppsoe that he would sue the buiding manufacturer and win because there is no sign warning someone of getting hurt if they >do that... > >As for missing badges, most security systems require the badge and an ID code to enter, so just having a badge doesn't help much unless security is already lax at the airport. People are to badge in, enter their code, and then close the door so the next person does the same procedure. That's another thing that found, people letting other people through the doors and in some cases blocking them open and leaving them standing wide open for anybody that came along. In addition, they've found that there are 100s of missing airlines uniforms and a whole hosts of other security problems. They've also found a high number of convicted felons working there because the airports were lax about getting background checks. Like I said, hardly a week goes by with some new revalation about problems at the airports. > >If Miami is ruuning that badly then there is a good problem to start with. Miami running badly is an understatement! It's been that way for a LONG time and for some reason they can't seem to straighten it out. Too many airport operators looking to pince pennies, minoritie rights, unions, underpaid employees and other specail interest I suppose but that still doesn't excuse the smoke and mirrors approach to security that the government is using. Inspecting every airline passenger three and four times before he gets on a plane isn't going to do much good when you have drug addicts, ex-criminals and thieves working in the ground crews and wide open access for nearly anyone that wants to get on or to an aircraft while it's sitting on the ground. Joe > >Steve > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 6 22:51:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <1091843797.3352.28.camel@azure> References: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040806235152.00910820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:56 PM 8/6/04 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 19:59, Steve Thatcher wrote: >> eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later last year. The people that are there are doing their job and are not given the ability to make decisions and exceptions on their own. People making exceptions and doing their own security thing on 9/11 resulted in thousands of dead people. > >No, what actually caused the deaths is people being taught to be passive >sheep in case of a hijacking. Amen! The about of security required to prevent >something like 9/11 from happening would make Nazi Germany look a >bastion of freedom. > >I'm not saying some steps should not be done, but I have to agree with >what others have voiced that about the only thing that the TSA does is >put forth the apprearance of security. > > >> Sure, the borders need to be protected better, but at least a person running into the side of a building will only give the person a headache. Of course, I would suppsoe that he would sue the buiding manufacturer and win because there is no sign warning someone of getting hurt if they do that... > >It's an impossible job to secure the borders well enough to prevent any >small motivated group from sneaking in, That's true but we can't even seem to keep out fully one half of Mexico! (or Hatii or Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, or Cuba or half the counties in South and Central America). It's gotten so bad that I read recently where one lot of border jumpers they did did catch turned out to be Chinese! They traveled to Mexico, presumably legally, then jumped the border into the US. It's no longer just Mexicans but the whole world is crossing into the US via the Mexican border! Joe and once in it's easy enough to >blend in. There are probably more ways to kill or mame a large number >of people than anybody can plan against. Then the question comes as >what is the effect on society and the economy of the country as a result >of the measures put in place. > >::sigh:: >This is so far off topic for this list that this thread probably should >die. > >Paul > >> As for missing badges, most security systems require the badge and an ID code to enter, so just having a badge doesn't help much unless security is already lax at the airport. People are to badge in, enter their code, and then close the door so the next person does the same procedure. >> >> If Miami is ruuning that badly then there is a good problem to start with. > >What about all the small commercial aviation airports with no security? >last I talked to somebody that flew private planes (about a year ago) it >was easy to fly from a small county airport and bypass all the security >in regional airport. > >Paul > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 6 22:52:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > buildings. Our borders should be our first line of defense against > terrorism but they're wide open to even the most illiterate Mexican > peasant to simply walk across. It's a good thing that Alqueda doesn't > wise up and simply walk in 10,000 or so terrorists across the Canadian > or Mexican borders. That's a bit naive, Joe. You think an organization like Al Qaeda would overlook an opportunity like that? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 6 22:59:24 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806235152.00910820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040806235152.00910820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040806205727.W15788@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > That's true but we can't even seem to keep out fully one half of Mexico! What percentage of airport security are U.S. citizens? Around here, there seem to be more Philipino nationals then U.S. citizens. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 6 19:51:46 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel In-Reply-To: <20040806231612.86192.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040806203023.04d297d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that evan may have mentioned these words: >[snip] >Of course if Sellam gets us a discount rate at a Marriott, such as at VCF >East, >I imagine that would be much nicer than the Comfort Inn... I certainly mean no disrespect to Sellam, as he did a fantastic job on VCF East 2.0 {despite... ahhh... "familial difficulties" to attend more} but the $69/nite pay-in-advance deal actually wasn't part of the deal Sellam brokered with them. (Or, I suppose more accurately -- wasn't any more of a deal than what they offer themselves...) AAMAF, the conversation I had with them when I reserved my room was a bit odd -- for 5 minutes of discussion, the lady would *not* take my reservation for more than Friday & Saturday nite at the ($69/nite) VCF rate, which I would have had to pay in advance with a credit card, so when I finally asked what other deals they had which would cover Thursday & Sunday nite as well, she told me that I was eligible for another deal as long as I prepay with a credit card -- $69/nite. Methinks she was trying to get me to acquiesce and get a "non-deal" room rate, until I asked "just the right question." If there is a Marriott nearby, they may offer the same deal... can't hurt to call & ask! I can say that VCFEast 2.0 was my "last hurrah" for a while (according to my checkbook, at least) so VCF West is certainly out of the question... However, I noticed that Sellam has worked out a VCF Italia 1.0, which makes me beg the question: When is VCF Canada 1.0? -- As long as it's in Ontario there's a good chance I could make that... and if it's close enough, heck, maybe I could help organize and/or help... Ottawa is touch far, but Toronto or Hamilton are within an 8-10 hour drive... ;-) Just a (probably bad) thought... hehehe ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 23:11:01 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040807041101.38232.qmail@web51807.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I just got an HP9000 K Class K570 server. It's got > dual 200Mhz PA-RISC > processors and 1GB RAM, plus some arsenal of hard > drives. > > I've never worked with HP PA-RISC machines before. > What's this equivalent > to in terms of Intel processor power? I think 200MHz PA-RISC will be pretty close to the 200MHz pentium pro. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || > Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 7 00:04:50 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I just got an HP9000 K Class K570 server. It's got dual 200Mhz PA-RISC >processors and 1GB RAM, plus some arsenal of hard drives. > >I've never worked with HP PA-RISC machines before. What's this equivalent >to in terms of Intel processor power? For Interger performance it's slightly better than a Pentium II 350Mhz, and for Floating Point, it's somewhere around a Pentium III 500-550Mhz. The other thing to remember is that the PA-RISC chip is 64-bit. I'm guessing the K570 also weighs a lot more than any normal Pentium II or Pentium III system :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Aug 7 00:06:20 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: DSSI CABLES / TERMS Message-ID: Hi all, Sorry for barging in like this. I still have a DSSI cable plus 7 DSSI terminators in my trunk. One list member needed 3 terms, another needed a cable and 4 terms. Can these people please contact me off-list with their shipping info, so I can unload them from my poor, overloaded car? Now, back to our regular silence, Fred From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Aug 7 01:42:33 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Message-ID: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello ClassicCmp friends, Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, this story got me highly intrigued. Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? MS From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 7 03:04:02 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 6, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Hello ClassicCmp friends, > > Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the > Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed > time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a > classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, > this story got me highly intrigued. > > Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, > I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have > been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back > for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? > > MS > > I was prompted to go back to the "John Titor" stuff I had seen on the web before... John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX Did it even have a terminal program or a serial port or some other way to connect it to a Unix machine or a mainframe? From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 7 03:24:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040806203023.04d297d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I certainly mean no disrespect to Sellam, as he did a fantastic job on VCF > East 2.0 {despite... ahhh... "familial difficulties" to attend more} but > the $69/nite pay-in-advance deal actually wasn't part of the deal Sellam > brokered with them. (Or, I suppose more accurately -- wasn't any more of a > deal than what they offer themselves...) Tis true. I contracted for the standard group rate, but was also told about the $69 "pay-in-advance" rate, which I also mentioned on the VCF East lodging page. That was definitely the deal to go with if you knew you were coming for sure. > Methinks she was trying to get me to acquiesce and get a "non-deal" room > rate, until I asked "just the right question." You definitely have to ask for it. > If there is a Marriott nearby, they may offer the same deal... can't hurt > to call & ask! I think the rate might be higher, but I'll check. I ended up staying at the Marriott and can say I have never stayed in a nicer hotel room. The bed was amazing, the internet access was awesome (or seemed like it was...I didn't bring a laptop with me) and everything all around was just great. > I can say that VCFEast 2.0 was my "last hurrah" for a while (according to > my checkbook, at least) so VCF West is certainly out of the question... > However, I noticed that Sellam has worked out a VCF Italia 1.0, which makes > me beg the question: When is VCF Canada 1.0? -- As long as it's in Ontario > there's a good chance I could make that... and if it's close enough, heck, > maybe I could help organize and/or help... Ottawa is touch far, but Toronto > or Hamilton are within an 8-10 hour drive... ;-) We'll see. We'd need a local coordinator :) BTW, with regards to VCF East, I never got to ask: where the hell was everyone on Saturday?? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 7 03:27:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Hello ClassicCmp friends, > > Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the > Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed > time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a > classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, > this story got me highly intrigued. > > Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, > I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have > been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back > for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? My drugs tonight were definitely not as good as Michael's. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 7 03:28:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 > > It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX > > Did it even have a terminal program or a serial port or some other > way to connect it to a Unix machine or a mainframe? No, but it probably had a flux capacitor. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hansp at citem.org Sat Aug 7 03:42:10 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <411495E2.5090601@citem.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 > It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX > Did it even have a terminal program or a serial port or some other > way to connect it to a Unix machine or a mainframe? Yes, there was a serial communications option with appropriate software, though probably not qualified for UNIX connection ;-) -- HansP From hansp at citem.org Sat Aug 7 03:46:57 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:57 2005 Subject: OT Re: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806235152.00910820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <19627660.1091840397082.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040806235152.00910820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <41149701.4020503@citem.org> Joe R. wrote: > At 08:56 PM 8/6/04 -0500, you wrote: > >>On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 19:59, Steve Thatcher wrote: >> >>>eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later > last year. The people that are there are doing their job and are not given > the ability to make decisions and exceptions on their own. People making > exceptions and doing their own security thing on 9/11 resulted in thousands > of dead people. >>No, what actually caused the deaths is people being taught to be passive >>sheep in case of a hijacking. > Amen! Indeed, but to be fair those passengers had no idea what the hijackers planned, once the real situation became know the passengers DID try and do something. And since then attempts to hijack planes HAVE been prevented by passenger intervention by probably the best security available : self preservation. -- HansP From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 7 03:52:27 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806190218.0091ed90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040806190218.0091ed90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In message <3.0.6.32.20040806190218.0091ed90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > No and I have no intentions of flying as long as this crap continues. I > have a very low treshold for BS! So don't expect to see me at VCF or > anywhere else if it involves flying. I had a load of trouble at one of the main UK international airports a few years ago (about a month before 9/11). I took a laptop computer and an Olympus OM10 SLR camera with me. So I get up to the security terminal (or whatever they call it) and ask if they can hand-search the laptop bag and camera bag, or at the very least the camera bag (I had loads of high-speed film in there). Me> "Can you hand-search my camera bag? I've..." Them> "No. The scanner won't fog your film" Me> "Well, it's just that there's five rolls of extremely high speed professional film in there, plus one in the camera. Can't you at least take the film out and check it by hand?" Them> "Tough. It has to go through the scanner. It won't fog your film." Me> "So no exceptions for camera film then." Them> [whispers something to his supervisor] Them> "No. Your bags have to go through the scanner" Idiot at back of line> "Come on f*ckwit, get a move on. Boarding for my flight closes in ten minutes and I need to be in Aberdeen by noon!" Needless to say, I have a very low tolerance for this kind of BS. I didn't use any of the film (I ended up replacing it), but just for kicks I sent one roll to be developed. Rather predictably, it was completely fogged. Some of these people would probably fare better in a field that requires less use of their obviously overstressed brains... maybe street-sweeping? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'm not lost! I'm locationally challenged. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 7 04:00:27 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20a3a5da4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > I'm glad to hear that. But they shouldn't have been on the list to begin > with! That's one of my points, airport security is nothing but a show to > make the public think the government is actually doing somehting about > security. But all too much of it is meaningless and useless measures such > as this. If you haven't read it, there's a book called "Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World", by Bruce Schneier - ISBN 0-387-02620-7. It covers a lot of the so-called "security theater", why some of it works, why 99.95% of it is a load of crap. Very interesting read - well worth the money IMO. I think my copy cost ?15 from Amazon UK, hard-back too. ISTR it was at the top of Amazon's best-seller list for a few weeks. > Eyeglass screwderivers and nail files have never been a threat to > an airliner that I know of! BTW metal toothpicks ARE still on the list of > "weapons". Can you tell me exactly how many airliners have been hijacked > with a toothpick? TTBOMK? Zero. I doubt you could do much damage with a metal toothpick. Maybe a small scratch or a minor puncture wound at worst. Probably not enough to incapacitate someone. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Huh? My keyboard doesn't have an "any" key... From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Aug 7 03:09:54 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:04:50 PDT." Message-ID: <200408070809.JAA03680@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Zane H. Healy" said: > >I just got an HP9000 K Class K570 server. It's got dual 200Mhz PA-RISC > >processors and 1GB RAM, plus some arsenal of hard drives. > > > >I've never worked with HP PA-RISC machines before. What's this equivalent > >to in terms of Intel processor power? > > For Interger performance it's slightly better than a Pentium II > 350Mhz, and for Floating Point, it's somewhere around a Pentium III > 500-550Mhz. The other thing to remember is that the PA-RISC chip is > 64-bit. I'm guessing the K570 also weighs a lot more than any normal > Pentium II or Pentium III system :^) According to the SPEC website a K570 1 cpu runs: SPEC95fp 23.0 SPECint 14.6 if such figures mean anything. (I've been thinking of playing with a PS-RISC machine myself which is why I had the figures to hand...) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 7 04:50:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Needless to say, I have a very low tolerance for this kind of BS. I didn't > use any of the film (I ended up replacing it), but just for kicks I sent one > roll to be developed. Rather predictably, it was completely fogged. > Some of these people would probably fare better in a field that requires less > use of their obviously overstressed brains... maybe street-sweeping? Prison guard seems more appropo. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 7 04:51:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <20a3a5da4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Eyeglass screwderivers and nail files have never been a threat to > > an airliner that I know of! BTW metal toothpicks ARE still on the list of > > "weapons". Can you tell me exactly how many airliners have been hijacked > > with a toothpick? > TTBOMK? Zero. I doubt you could do much damage with a metal toothpick. Maybe > a small scratch or a minor puncture wound at worst. Probably not enough to > incapacitate someone. There's always the chance of a perfect shot to the jugular :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Aug 7 05:10:14 2004 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040807060740.01da0ec0@smtp.wincom.net> At 02:42 AM 07/08/2004, you wrote: >Hello ClassicCmp friends, > >Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the >Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed >time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a >classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, >this story got me highly intrigued. > >Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, >I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have >been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back >for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? > >MS Vintage 1976, IBM's first "portable computer", about 50 pounds, no handles. The one I have is still in working condition. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Aug 7 07:05:20 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later last year. >I'm glad to hear that. But they shouldn't have Just after 9/11, my son daughter-in-lay ant two grandkids [2yrs and 4mos] were flying back to Florida [from NY]. Security would not let them on with the babies' little "blunt end" feeding fork! After they got home by son realized he had a swiss army knife in an inner coat pocket [a letal weapon compared to a baby's fork!] that was noit detected by the same guard at the same time. Oh Well... Ps: we shipped the fork down, it was a gift from the kids grandmother.... From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Aug 7 08:27:37 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040807090736.03d56b40@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David V. Corbin may have mentioned these words: > >eyeglass screwdrivers and even nail files were taken off the list later >last year. > >I'm glad to hear that. But they shouldn't have > >Just after 9/11, my son daughter-in-lay... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I gotta ask: Typo, Freudian slip or exact description of the situation? :-O ;^> >[snip]...After they got home by son >realized he had a swiss army knife in an inner coat pocket [a letal weapon >compared to a baby's fork!] that was noit detected by the same guard at the >same time. Admittedly, I haven't flown since 9/11, but I flew just before that, and airport security had no problem with my leatherman. I removed it where you "remove all metallic objects" right with my belt, they asked me what it was, I said "Pliers." No problem... 2 knife blades, a saw blade that could easily rip off a finger (or jugular) or just adding weight to my punch to give it more "punch." ;-) At least for the US, what we need for "Midflight Security" is a revival of the "minuteman" concept for flying. There should be a *totally volunteer* photo ID system of anyone willing to lay down their life in defense of the country[1], and they get to walk on with any type and quantity of non-projectile weapon(s) of their choice. "But what happens when a bad apple gets a card and tries to use it" you ask? 10 "Good apples" could easily subdue the bad one, and said "bad apple" is tried & convicted of treason and hanged[2][3]. Despite the fact that I'm old and fat, if I have my leatherman on me and know that there's a darned good chance 5 more people have similar, I'd go up against a couple of bastards with boxcutters... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] World, for that matter... [2] Or shot... I could live with shot... ;-) [3] Assuming he survives... Attempting to hijack a plane with a bunch of good guys with knives on board could prove fatal... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Aug 7 08:42:27 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040806040742.23398.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9EFD7300-E877-11D8-9545-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 06/08/2004, at 2:07 PM, evan wrote: > I just heard the very end of a TV news report, where they said some > airport > terminal was shut down for hours today due to a bomb scare. They > described the > potential bomb as a small, odd-looking box with wires and various > electrical > parts. Then they said "It turned out to be an antique microphone." Well, returning to Australia from the UK in mid-2000 with an antique oil lamp (a family heirloom) lead to a very thorough search at Manchester Airport. I assume that it x-rayed in a non-conforming way. Even more fun was the extra baggage check on my last flight to Singapore on a Qantas code share with British Airways. Explaining why I had two laptops in my carry on baggage was somewhat entertaining - especially when I couldn't boot my work laptop as the battery didn't have enough power left to boot. I spent some time trying to explain that the work laptop was for work and the other one was for personal use, but I don't think I really got through to security... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 08:47:41 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807094741.009192f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:52 PM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> buildings. Our borders should be our first line of defense against >> terrorism but they're wide open to even the most illiterate Mexican >> peasant to simply walk across. It's a good thing that Alqueda doesn't >> wise up and simply walk in 10,000 or so terrorists across the Canadian >> or Mexican borders. > >That's a bit naive, Joe. You think an organization like Al Qaeda would >overlook an opportunity like that? I doubt it. But I seriously doubt that they'll try hijacking an airliner again but it seems to be the only threat that the US government is willing to prepare for. They say that generals always plan to fight the next war with the lessons that they learned from the previous one. It looks like the security people in the US are doing the same thing. Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From vax3900 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 7 09:10:16 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040807060740.01da0ec0@smtp.wincom.net> Message-ID: <20040807141016.52692.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Charles E. Fox" wrote: > At 02:42 AM 07/08/2004, you wrote: > >Hello ClassicCmp friends, > > > >Right now as I type this an interview is in > progress on the > >Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about > a supposed > >time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to > obtain a > >classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless > to say, > >this story got me highly intrigued. > > > >Since I don't really know anything about the > machine in question, > >I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. > There must have > >been something really special about IBM 5100 for > them to go back > >for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about > that machine? > > > >MS > > Vintage 1976, IBM's first "portable > computer", about 50 pounds, > no handles. The one I have is still in working > condition. It seems that portability is the key point here. vax, 3900 > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox > Charles E. Fox > Video Production > 793 Argyle > Rd. > Windsor Ontario > Canada N8Y 3J8 > 519-254-4991 > foxvideo@wincom.net > Check out the > "Camcorder Kindergarten" > at > http://chasfoxvideo.com > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From aek at spies.com Sat Aug 7 10:25:44 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Message-ID: <20040807152544.010EF3CCA@spies.com> http://www.johntitor.com/ for more than you want to know about this loon. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 7 10:56:15 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3930712.1091837533311.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earth link.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> At 08:12 PM 8/6/2004, you wrote: >As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer than >welcome another attack on US soil because things weren't being checked. Sorry, it is BS. If we wanted to make things safer, we'd let citizens with concealed weapons permits carry guns on planes. Ed From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 7 04:32:11 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <20a3a5da4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040806233838.00917d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20a3a5da4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200408071611.MAA26302@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I doubt you could do much damage with a metal toothpick. Maybe a > small scratch or a minor puncture wound at worst. Probably not > enough to incapacitate someone. I routinely carry a small blade with no handle - a piece of metal maybe four inches long altogether, with no good way to get a grip on it. It doesn't even have much of an edge or point - it's got maybe as sharp an edge as a letter opener, and I once used its point on myself, when it took a good deal of effort to draw any blood at all from someone who was holding still for it. (Blooding it was the whole point.) Even under ideal circumstances - say, held against a wall and someone thrown onto it - it could hardly do more than a small and fairly shallow puncture wound. A tiger's-paw strike to the throat, for which I need no equipment, would be much more lethal. Yet this was rejected by airport "security", once, when I was careless enough to neglect to pack it. (The same people rejected a roll of ordinary packing tape too, even sillier!) That sort of thing is why I support the "BS" labeling. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at spies.com Sat Aug 7 11:15:45 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: MXV22 Message-ID: <20040807161545.D075E3C74@spies.com> I forget who, but someone was just looking for a qbus RX02 controller http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5114514960 They work very well, and can format RX02s From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 7 11:30:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040806203023.04d297d8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040806203023.04d297d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200408071631.MAA26511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > When is VCF Canada 1.0? I'd like to know too! Especially if it's out Ontario/Qu?bec way. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Aug 7 11:33:26 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <12462302.1091896407231.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> the last thing I would want is some average guy with a concealed weapons permit having a gun on board... getting a permit is too easy and without proper training would be more dangerous than safe. 9/11 was a paridigm shift from hijacking being a "take me where I want to go scenario" to guaranteed death. I would believe that any passenger jet that was taken over by any means would not succeed now because of what passengers would do rather than sitting back and waiting. Those days are gone. We all have different levels of tolerance, Some of the stuff is BS with regards to what coould be considered a weapon or even that 80 year old people were searched as possibilities. In my opinion, it is not all BS. What the puiblic hears about is a fraction of what goes on. What we do hear about, we have the giovernment and media all spinning the stuff in different directions. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Ed Kelleher Sent: Aug 7, 2004 11:56 AM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Holy cow... At 08:12 PM 8/6/2004, you wrote: >As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer than >welcome another attack on US soil because things weren't being checked. Sorry, it is BS. If we wanted to make things safer, we'd let citizens with concealed weapons permits carry guns on planes. Ed From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 7 11:39:45 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <12462302.1091896407231.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <12462302.1091896407231.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200408071642.MAA26597@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > the last thing I would want is some average guy with a concealed > weapons permit having a gun on board... getting a permit is too easy > and without proper training would be more dangerous than safe. Sounds to me as though your issue is with getting concealed-carry permits rather than with having people on board who are, almost by definition, trusted with concealed weapons. > 9/11 was a paridigm shift from hijacking being a "take me where I > want to go scenario" to guaranteed death. I would believe that any > passenger jet that was taken over by any means would not succeed now > because of what passengers would do rather than sitting back and > waiting. Those days are gone. It sounds to me as though this is more an argument to scrap the whole idea of keeping weapons out of the hands of airline passengers (at least while they are on the plane). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 7 12:32:32 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> Ed Kelleher wrote: > Sorry, it is BS. If we wanted to make things safer, we'd let citizens with > concealed weapons permits carry guns on planes. Only problem there is that a bullet would likely go straight through the walls of the plane. (Air pressure outside plane) < (Air pressure inside plane) = decompression. Not a good thing to happen on a plane. That and the risk of it hitting wiring, fuel lines, hydraulic lines and such on its way out. Or, even worse, an engine. Admittedly, that's a bit of a "worst case scenario"... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sat Aug 7 12:42:18 2004 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: New Finds - for free In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE9409581F@emma.Beovax.Local> Message-ID: I just got contacted to come pick up a complete Atari 800 with 5 1/4" drive and a printer and an Apple IIe with 5 1/4" drive, printer and monitor. They are supposed to be in good condition and have some software and manuals with them. I will be picking them up in the next couple of days and will check them both out. There is also a box of asst parts. The owner doesn't know what all is there, but, it is all mine for the taking. He was given the items by his father to dispose of. I get it all for free so I am not going to complain. :) I'll keep you posted on condition and what all is there incase someone needs some of this stuff. Greg Manuel >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Aug 7 12:50:43 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: Ed Kelleher "Re: Holy cow..." (Aug 7, 11:56) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <10408071850.ZM10111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 7, 11:56, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 08:12 PM 8/6/2004, you wrote: > >As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer than > >welcome another attack on US soil because things weren't being checked. > > Sorry, it is BS. If we wanted to make things safer, we'd let citizens with > concealed weapons permits carry guns on planes. Not without some suitable training and glaser safety ammunition. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From thompson at new.rr.com Sat Aug 7 13:49:09 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > For Interger performance it's slightly better than a Pentium II > 350Mhz, and for Floating Point, it's somewhere around a Pentium III > 500-550Mhz. The other thing to remember is that the PA-RISC chip is > 64-bit. I'm guessing the K570 also weighs a lot more than any normal > Pentium II or Pentium III system :^) > This particular rev of the PARISC is still 32 bit. The 64 bit machines did not come until later. The performance sounds about right. Your HSC-bus peripherals are better than your HPPB. HP had a habit of making peripherals for the precision bus which could not run at full speed. The 100Mb ethernet comes to mind as one. From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Aug 7 13:51:20 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <30736096.1091904681162.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> der Mouse, you obviously know nothing about what it takes to get a concealed weapons permit in the US. I have a concealed weapons permit and I also have done practical pistol shooting. I would not want untrained individuals putting my life at risk. Having a permit in the US does not require training or anything but the money and no criminal record. I did my training at different opportunities in my life and without any requirement to do so. With reagrds to before 9/11 and after, the paradigm shift is a fact and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not people are allowed to carry weapons on a plane. People would have risen up and brought those first plaines down if they had a clue that the planes were going to be used as weapons and they were dead already so to speak. You can take my views however you want to in any way you care to. It wasn't your country that was attacked and left thousands dead. You have already pointed out what you think of America and its people in one of your earlier emails -----Original Message----- From: der Mouse Sent: Aug 7, 2004 12:39 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Holy cow... Sounds to me as though your issue is with getting concealed-carry permits rather than with having people on board who are, almost by definition, trusted with concealed weapons. It sounds to me as though this is more an argument to scrap the whole idea of keeping weapons out of the hands of airline passengers (at least while they are on the plane). From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 7 14:17:25 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <30736096.1091904681162.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30736096.1091904681162.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200408071923.PAA27153@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > der Mouse, you obviously know nothing about what it takes to get a > concealed weapons permit in the US. I didn't, no; nor did I need to, since my response was based on your reaction, and thus your perception, rather than whatever the reality behind it was. > I would not want untrained individuals putting my life at risk. > Having a permit in the US does not require training or anything but > the money and no criminal record. Sounds as though I was right, that your issue is with concealed-carry permits themselves rather than with whether people with them are allowed to have their weapons with them on aircraft. Or do you think that a weapon in the hands of an untrained person is somehow not dangerous anywhere but on an aircraft? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 7 14:39:41 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Apollo Domain Aegis SR 9.7.1 lives, huge Y2K bug! Message-ID: <41152FFD.2090305@tiac.net> While cleaning out the workshop, I decided to plug in a few old Apollo workstations. I was eventually able to get one machine (DN4500?) to boot into the Display Manager. The major trick was, I had to set the calendar date back prior to Y2K, otherwise the DM program would crash with an 'unable_to_map' error message. The Fuji SMD drive on my DN660 spun right up, and the 660 appeared to boot, but I have a minor video cable problem that prevented me from seeing the action (other than on the disk controller status leds). Anyone interested in some Apollos? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 7 14:39:09 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040807122815.T29463@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a > > classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, > > John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 > It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX "translate between"???? two languages and an OS There ain't no sech animal in THIS universe. Although cross interpreters between APL and BASIC are certainly possible, I don't recall any commercial ones. The 5100s in THIS universe can RUN BASIC, and can RUN APL, (both interpretive languages), but "translate"?? The time traveller must have been successful! and went back far enough to steal the only prototype. What WE know of as the 5100 was a later attempt to replace the stolen prototype, but with much more limited capabilities. The limited capabilites of the replacement 5100 (that came after the magical one that could TRANSLATE between BASIC, APL, and UNIX), are easily replicated in many later machines, and are hardly unique. Even the VideoBrain had an APL cartridge. And one of the INITIAL offerings when the 5150 was released was a diskette based APL interpreter. (complete with key labels) From transit at lerctr.org Sat Aug 7 14:39:15 2004 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? In-Reply-To: <200408071713.i77HDcba043059@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408071713.i77HDcba043059@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have a bunch of 1200 and 2400's lying around, if anyone's interested (I might take them up to VCF and try to sell them there....) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 7 14:41:20 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <20040807141016.52692.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040807141016.52692.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040807124029.S29463@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > Vintage 1976, IBM's first "portable > > computer", about 50 pounds, > > no handles. The one I have is still in working > > condition. > It seems that portability is the key point here. > vax, 3900 plus the option of either BASIC or APL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 7 14:50:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <20040807152544.010EF3CCA@spies.com> References: <20040807152544.010EF3CCA@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040807124849.B29463@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.johntitor.com/ > for more than you want to know about this loon. It ways that he was going back to 2036. WHEN does the Unix Date/Time clock overflow? From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Aug 7 15:11:42 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <8206626.1091909503178.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> as I said, you can intrepret things in any way you choose and you certainly did with no personal knowledge of facts. You took words, created your own meaning of what I was saying just so you can say you are right - amazing. end of thread... -----Original Message----- From: der Mouse Sent: Aug 7, 2004 3:17 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Holy cow... > der Mouse, you obviously know nothing about what it takes to get a > concealed weapons permit in the US. I didn't, no; nor did I need to, since my response was based on your reaction, and thus your perception, rather than whatever the reality behind it was. > I would not want untrained individuals putting my life at risk. > Having a permit in the US does not require training or anything but > the money and no criminal record. Sounds as though I was right, that your issue is with concealed-carry permits themselves rather than with whether people with them are allowed to have their weapons with them on aircraft. Or do you think that a weapon in the hands of an untrained person is somehow not dangerous anywhere but on an aircraft? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 7 15:10:30 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Concealed weapons In-Reply-To: <30736096.1091904681162.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807150949.03377318@192.168.0.1> At 02:51 PM 8/7/2004, you wrote: >der Mouse, you obviously know nothing about what it takes to get a >concealed weapons permit in the US. I have a concealed weapons permit and >I also have done practical pistol shooting. I would not want untrained >individuals putting my life at risk. Having a permit in the US does not >require training or anything but the money and no criminal record. I did >my training at different opportunities in my life and without any >requirement to do so. South Carolina requires training and has a written test and a shooting test that people must pass before receiving a concealed weapon permit. Most other states have training requirements also. But, none of them are very arduous and yes many states don' t have training requirements at all as you say. But it really doesn't seem to matter. The majority of people in the USA live in areas where good citizens can and do legally carry concealed firearms, even in places that serve alcohol. And innocent people are just *not* being hurt by people with a concealed weapon permit -- training or no training. You're more likely to be hurt by a PC or an iPod (woman in Tennessee killed her boyfriend with an iPod) http://www.liquidgeneration.com/rumormill/ipod_killing.html or by a police officer or government storm trooper than a citizen legally carrying a concealed weapon. You don't even *need* a permit to have a loaded handgun in your car in South Carolina, Georgia, Flordia, North Carolina and Virigina. Yet people aren't having shootouts in parking lots or on the highways. Just the occasional rapist or carjacker being blown away is all you hear about. I don't know what training people would think necessary to carry on an airliner, but I'd be happy with anyone who could shoot a decent score on an IPSC or IDPA classifier stage. http://www.ipsc.org/ics/short/CLC-01.jpg But training or not, Glaser Safety Slugs or not, I'd much rather be on a flight where people with concealed weapons permits could carry than one that could be splashed by some highly trained F16 pilot because some bureaucrat, worried about "training" (read CYA), denied me the means of effective self defense. Until they start asking, "Carrying or Non-Carrying?", I'm like Joe, if I can't drive, I likely won't go. Ed From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 7 15:29:50 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 References: <20040807152544.010EF3CCA@spies.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c47cbd$509dd280$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > http://www.johntitor.com/5100.htm Damn! Another reason, another "market demographic" for driving up even further the already too-high price of the 5100. - - - When I was six there was another kid in the neighborhood who claimed that a electric fry-pan handle he carried in his pocket could stop time. Same bat time, same bat channel. - - - At first glance Titor looks like a William Burroughs wannabe, complete with the well-placed grandfather. John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 7 15:44:53 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel References: Message-ID: <003a01c47cbf$6ab41100$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > BTW, with regards to VCF East, I never got to ask: where > the hell was everyone on Saturday?? Personally, my car developed a potentially serious coolant problem. Sorry I missed Bob Supnik, who said he was coming back, and Evan, and Fred. Still about 11 great hours were had. Thanks again. John A. From aek at spies.com Sat Aug 7 15:46:48 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Apollos Message-ID: <20040807204648.10B803C7E@spies.com> > Anyone interested in some Apollos? -- yes, esp the manual wall you have in the basement. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Aug 7 16:22:20 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: VCF Security References: <072820041454.6987.4107BE1C00064F0F00001B4B22007340760603970A04040108@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000b01c47cc4$9fb54db0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> I feel much better now knowing that some of the other exhibitors may be packing a concealed weapon. Michael Holley ----- Original Message ----- From: swtpc6800@comcast.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:54 AM Subject: VCF Security I am considering having an exhibit at the next Vintage Computer Festival (7.0). I was wondering what the security is like for the exhibits. Do you need to packup up each night? I would like to here comment from those who were there (Computer History Museum) last year. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 7 16:28:58 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: VCF Security In-Reply-To: <000b01c47cc4$9fb54db0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> References: <072820041454.6987.4107BE1C00064F0F00001B4B22007340760603970A04040108@comcast.net> <000b01c47cc4$9fb54db0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: <200408071428.58858.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Good! Lyle On Saturday 07 August 2004 14:22, Michael Holley wrote: > I feel much better now knowing that some of the other exhibitors may be > packing a concealed weapon. > > Michael Holley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: swtpc6800@comcast.net > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:54 AM > Subject: VCF Security > > > I am considering having an exhibit at the next Vintage Computer Festival > (7.0). > I was wondering what the security is like for the exhibits. Do you need to > packup up each night? > I would like to here comment from those who were there (Computer History > Museum) last year. > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 16:45:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Aug 7, 4 02:39:15 pm Message-ID: > > > I have a bunch of 1200 and 2400's lying around, if anyone's interested Those are old modems??? They sound rather modern to me :-). Old modems are things like the Plessey (badged GPO or BT) Modem 2B (all discrete transsitors, pot-cores in the filters, does 300 buard), or the 13A (A 300 baud modem in a plinth that fits under a Telephone 746). Actually, those might be too modern for some people :-) More seriously, some modems are 'collectable' (how I hate that word!). I think the Hayes oens in the aluminum cases with the black end panels are. Maybe things like the UK Pace Linnet (how many UK BBS enthusiasts had one of those? :-). Maybe some of the acccoustic couplers. Personally, I like modems with very unconventioanl circuitry, like one I have that uses an 8088 as a DSP, or one that's got a couple of large boards stuffed with AMD 2900 seires chips and an 8*8 multipiier. I think that one does 2400 bps on a private line. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 16:53:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 7, 4 01:04:02 am Message-ID: > John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 > > It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX Which would appear to be a totally meaningless statement. > > Did it even have a terminal program or a serial port or some other > way to connect it to a Unix machine or a mainframe? The HP9830, which pre-dated the IBM5100 by a couple of years, but which had somewaht similar facilities -- all-in-one machine, built-in display, keyboard, tape drive, BASIC in ROM (no APL for the HP machine), etc, had a terminal emulator ROM cartridge which worked with a special bit-banged serial interface (not the serial interface used to, say, link up a serial printer). This not only let you use the 9830 as a terminal, it also let you store the incoming data in memory as if it was a BASIC program (obviously syntax checcking was disabled), and you could then save said 'program' onto tape. And of course you could reverse the process and upload the data back to the host mainframe/mini. The idea was to avoid having to pay the storage charges for your files on a timesharing system. One day I must assemble the terminal emulator ROM code from the patent, do any modifications that are neccessary due to differences between the machine in the patent and the production version (I know there are some hardware differences, but they shouldn't matter), and then buld the bit-banging interface and give the whole system a go. -tony From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Aug 7 17:40:54 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Those are old modems??? They sound rather modern to me :-). Old modems Yes, they are. I still remember the modem we had at school.. like Tony said, twas a big box loaded with cards, and it did 300bps. We eventually modified it (and the one at the other end of the line) to do 450 :) Still... yeah, modems are kinda collectable, and they do present a fair part of technological advances... --f From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Aug 7 17:47:35 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? References: Message-ID: <00b901c47cd0$89fc1f60$1a406b43@66067007> I have a pretty good size collection of modems mostly external ones with a few odd size/shape internals. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Does anyone collect old Modems? > > Those are old modems??? They sound rather modern to me :-). Old modems > Yes, they are. > > I still remember the modem we had at school.. like Tony said, twas a big > box loaded with cards, and it did 300bps. We eventually modified it (and > the one at the other end of the line) to do 450 :) > > Still... yeah, modems are kinda collectable, and they do present a fair > part of technological advances... > > --f > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Aug 7 18:01:48 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <20040807124849.B29463@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040807152544.010EF3CCA@spies.com> <20040807124849.B29463@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41155F5C.7090806@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > WHEN does the Unix Date/Time clock overflow? Sometime in 2038, isn't it? -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sat Aug 7 18:33:03 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Australian Customs (was Re: Holy cow... ) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807150949.03377318@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <010c01c47cd6$e56f51e0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> I have a story. I used to work in Melbourne as a network engineer under contract to NEC and Ericsson. This job took me all over fixing PCs and such like. Anyways as a Certified Ultralight Pilot and avid radio amateur, I had in my tool bag an Alinco scanner. It was 4am on a foggy early monday morning in melbourne and there was no-one around in the airport (obviously except the other passengers on my flight and staff etc), I checked in as normal and as I only had 2 bags, laptop case/toolbag and my carry on clothes bag (only a 2 day trip) I never bothered to check in the tool bag (for obvious reasons ie: laptop) in that bag was my scanner... anyway, It goes through the scanner etc, and the usual customs crew which are normally on was there and we laughed and joked as we normally did (i knew them quite well bcus of usually 2 flights a month). This was the first time I had taken my radio with me, anyways the radio has a detactable battery pack which when separated has exposed terminals. It is a 12 volt battery which packs quite a punch for it's size, The customs/security bloke asked, "what's this" to which I replied "it's a scanner". This in itself didnt seem to bother him, what did was that it had batteries in it.. He asked me to take the pack off which i did and he then promptly put it back in the case with all my metal screwdrivers, cutters and the like with no questions asked. Now for the "not-so-stupid" people out there.... What happens to a rechargable battery when the contacts get shorted out by something metal..... that's right it gets hot and could catch fire. Now, question b... what is the most dangerous thing that can happen in the main cabin of an aircraft... yes... a fire or explosion.... and question c.... what did the security guy do when he put the exposed battery pack back in the case with all that metal???? that's right created technically a bomb... now I pointed this out to the man and he didnt care less....so I asked to speak to his supervisor...... he of course realised what the potential could be....... needless to say the battery pack was confiscated and given to me @ the other end... the security guy??? never saw him again in 4 years :D IMHO Just goes to show...... they aint got a clue wtf they talking about some of these security people... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 From jimmydevice at verizon.net Sat Aug 7 20:21:42 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (jimmydevice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41158026.3080807@verizon.net> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >>Those are old modems??? They sound rather modern to me :-). Old modems >> >> >Yes, they are. > >I still remember the modem we had at school.. like Tony said, twas a big >box loaded with cards, and it did 300bps. We eventually modified it (and >the one at the other end of the line) to do 450 :) > >Still... yeah, modems are kinda collectable, and they do present a fair >part of technological advances... > >--f > > > > Most don't collect them, They accumulate them.. Jim Davis. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 7 21:18:05 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? References: Message-ID: <006501c47ced$f0beb560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >Old modems > are things like the Plessey (badged GPO or BT) Modem 2B (all discrete > transsitors, pot-cores in the filters, does 300 buard), or the 13A (A > 300 baud modem in a plinth that fits under a Telephone 746). Actually, > those might be too modern for some people :-) What about the old light blue metal boxes labled "Gandalf"? Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 20:49:03 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807214903.008c8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:42 AM 8/7/04 +0000, you wrote: >Hello ClassicCmp friends, > >Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the >Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed >time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a >classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, >this story got me highly intrigued. You have to wonder how you could even explain what a computer is in 2036. By then everyone may well have one implanted in them before birth and won't even be able to comprehend someone without one. Hell, spoken language and face to face conversasions might even be obselete and eveything handled by E-mail! Of course, the concept of a CRT or keyboard would probably be meaningless. The whole thing reminds me of the StarTrek movie where the Enterprise travels back in time to 1980 or thereabouts and Scotty is trying to use then current computer. He keeps saying "Computer" and trying to TELL it what to do. Finally one of the people from 1980 hands him a keyboard. He looks at it for a moment and relies "How Quaint"! Lets just hope that by 2036 no one will remember MicrosSoft and Windows! Joe > >Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, >I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have >been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back >for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? > >MS > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 20:51:15 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807215115.008cb100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:04 AM 8/7/04 -0700, you wrote: > >On Aug 6, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Michael Sokolov wrote: > >> Hello ClassicCmp friends, >> >> Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the >> Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed >> time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a >> classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, >> this story got me highly intrigued. >> >> Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, >> I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have >> been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back >> for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? >> >> MS >> >> >I was prompted to go back to the "John Titor" stuff I had seen on >the web before... > >John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 > >It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX > >Did it even have a terminal program or a serial port or some other >way to connect it to a Unix machine or a mainframe? The Comm port to connect to a mainframe was optional. I had one on my 5100. There was no terminal program that I'm aware of but I never had docs and I'm not sure how you were supposed to communicate with the mainframe. Joe > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 20:52:13 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807215213.008cc760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:27 AM 8/7/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > >> Hello ClassicCmp friends, >> >> Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the >> Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed >> time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a >> classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, >> this story got me highly intrigued. >> >> Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, >> I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have >> been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back >> for it from 2036. There was. It was called APL! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 20:54:40 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040807060740.01da0ec0@smtp.wincom.net> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807215440.008cf100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:10 AM 8/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:42 AM 07/08/2004, you wrote: >>Hello ClassicCmp friends, >> >>Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the >>Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed >>time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a >>classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, >>this story got me highly intrigued. >> >>Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, >>I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have >>been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back >>for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? >> >>MS > > Vintage 1976, IBM's first "portable computer", And more importantly, the forerunner of the original IBM PC and all the PCs (and clones) that followed. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 21:20:46 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807222046.008bd4f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:32 PM 8/7/04 +0100, Phil wrote: >In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040807115354.024892b0@192.168.0.1> > Ed Kelleher wrote: > >> Sorry, it is BS. If we wanted to make things safer, we'd let citizens with >> concealed weapons permits carry guns on planes. >Only problem there is that a bullet would likely go straight through the >walls of the plane. (Air pressure outside plane) < (Air pressure inside >plane) = decompression. Not a good thing to happen on a plane. That and the >risk of it hitting wiring, fuel lines, hydraulic lines and such on its way >out. Or, even worse, an engine. >Admittedly, that's a bit of a "worst case scenario"... What you say is true but I personally would rather take my chances with a hole in the fuselage or even in the hydraulic system than being held by hijackers! It's funny, pilots in all of the US military services routinely carry a pistol and the services never worried about what MIGHT happen but now all of the sudden it's a big "but what if" issue! You have to wonder, is the effect on the aircraft REALLY the issue or is it just another ploy by the antigunners to keep guns out of the hands of ordinary citizens (and even extraordinary citizens in the case of pilots, air marshalls etc). By the way there is ammunition designed to be safely used inside an aircraft. The projectile is a small "bean bag" that flattens out in just a few feet. It will not penetrate the aircraft skin but if it hits someone the kinetic energy will be like them being smacked with a baseball bat! If you really want to stop airline hijacking. Lock the cockpit (that STILL hasn't been fully impemented!), Arm all the pilots (Ha! They're still not allowing ANY pilots to carry guns AFIK) and put one or more ARMED sky marshalls on EVERY flight and announce that fact. How many hijackers with paper cutters do you think would be willing to go up against an armed marshall? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 21:29:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807222955.0087ac90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:33 PM 8/7/04 -0400, Steve wrote: >the last thing I would want is some average guy with a concealed weapons permit having a gun on board... getting a permit is too easy and without proper training would be more dangerous than safe. Personally, I'd take my chances with a CWP holder over a hijacker ANYTIME! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 21:33:44 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Apollos In-Reply-To: <20040807204648.10B803C7E@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807223344.00926370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:46 PM 8/7/04 -0700, you wrote: > >> > >Anyone interested in some Apollos? Space craft or computers? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 21:53:27 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I know this is OT but I thought this was just too neat not to pass on. My father just retired and he's now trying to clean up 70 years of packratting. I was over helping him sort out his TTY stuff and found an old book in the bottom of a drawer titled Service and Instruction manual RADIO B-24D Airplane. It's a hardbound book printed by Consolidated Aircraft in 1943 that describes all of the radio systems aboard the B-24 Liberator bomber. It's over 250 pages long and every page in it is marked Restricted and it covers everything you could ever want to know about the Command, Marker Beacon, Radio Compass and Laison radio sets including detailed parts lists, cable and antenna routing, large foldout schematics, pictures of the radio sets with all the various parts labeled, pictures of the cockpit with all the rdio controls labeled, radio theory and loads more. One of the odd things about this book is that it's NOT a military manual. It's written in (mostly) non-technical and very readable manner and not like the dry writing style used in military manuals. It's also hard bound with leather looking cover and a nice gold embossed Consolidated Aircraft seal and title on the front cover and spine. My father wants me to try and sell it but I think I might just lose it on my bookshelf! Joe From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Aug 7 22:16:06 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Joe, please consider posting to the Greenkeys RTTY list about all the RTTY stuff... there is some overlap in membership between There and Here, and many folks (moi included) are quite actively pursuing TTY Stuff Preservation... Cheers John From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sat Aug 7 22:18:12 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual References: <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <012001c47cf6$5acdeae0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> personally i'd keep it in a vacuum sealed bag. that's a very rare find from what I know of a lot of museums would be interested in that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 3:53 AM Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual > I know this is OT but I thought this was just too neat not to pass on. > > My father just retired and he's now trying to clean up 70 years of > packratting. I was over helping him sort out his TTY stuff and found an old > book in the bottom of a drawer titled Service and Instruction manual RADIO > B-24D Airplane. It's a hardbound book printed by Consolidated Aircraft in > 1943 that describes all of the radio systems aboard the B-24 Liberator --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 22:26:07 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807232607.0092a730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> John, Have no fears, I'm not going to throw anything out. My father is hurting for money* and I'm going to have to sell anything that I can to help him out. *Long story but my stepmother really creamed him in their divorce and the poor guy has NO savings and now he's 74 years old and has no job. Joe At 11:16 PM 8/7/04 -0400, you wrote: > > > Joe, please consider posting to the Greenkeys RTTY list about all the >RTTY stuff... there is some overlap in membership between There and Here, >and many folks (moi included) are quite actively pursuing TTY Stuff >Preservation... > > > Cheers > >John > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 7 22:35:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual In-Reply-To: <012001c47cf6$5acdeae0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> References: <3.0.6.32.20040807225327.00917640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040807233508.00923e80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yeah I think you're right. I've gotten four e-mails about it in the last five minutes! Joe At 04:18 AM 8/8/04 +0100, you wrote: >personally i'd keep it in a vacuum sealed bag. that's a very rare find from >what I know of a lot of museums would be interested in that. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: >Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 3:53 AM >Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual > > >> I know this is OT but I thought this was just too neat not to pass on. >> >> My father just retired and he's now trying to clean up 70 years of >> packratting. I was over helping him sort out his TTY stuff and found an >old >> book in the bottom of a drawer titled Service and Instruction manual RADIO >> B-24D Airplane. It's a hardbound book printed by Consolidated Aircraft in >> 1943 that describes all of the radio systems aboard the B-24 Liberator > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 7 23:27:41 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AB2D6A-E8F3-11D8-A59B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 7, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 >> >> It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX > > Which would appear to be a totally meaningless statement. I agree, I was just quoting the story. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 7 23:30:31 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <49AB2D6A-E8F3-11D8-A59B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <49AB2D6A-E8F3-11D8-A59B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Aug 7, 2004, at 9:27 PM, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> John - the time traveler made the following claim of the 5100 >>> >>> It could translate between Basic, APL and UNIX >> >> Which would appear to be a totally meaningless statement. > > I agree, I was just quoting the story. > > Sorry, nevermind, duh... :^) From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 01:00:54 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Bludgeoned to death with an iPod? (was Re: Holy cow... Concealed weapons) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040807150949.03377318@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > You're more likely to be hurt by a PC or an iPod (woman in Tennessee > killed her boyfriend with an iPod) > http://www.liquidgeneration.com/rumormill/ipod_killing.html "Police said no motive has been confirmed, although evidence suggested the murder was the result of a domestic dispute after Pulaski erased the contents of Mathers' iPod." That is the funniest damn thing I have heard all week. "According to law officers, Mathers was hysterical when police arrived and told them that she killed her boyfriend only after he accused her of illegally downloading music and erased about 2,000 of her MP3s. Mathers complained that it took 3 months to build her music collection." Innocent. I'd a done the same damn thing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 01:19:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040807214903.008c8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Lets just hope that by 2036 no one will remember MicrosSoft and Windows! We'll have Windows 2035 (with SP1 to fix the Y2036 problem) but instead of just crashing your computer or taking out an entire network or even half the civilized world due to security holes, it'll instead implode the universe because everything will be quantum-based by then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 01:21:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040807222046.008bd4f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > If you really want to stop airline hijacking. Lock the cockpit (that > STILL hasn't been fully impemented!), Arm all the pilots (Ha! They're still > not allowing ANY pilots to carry guns AFIK) and put one or more ARMED sky > marshalls on EVERY flight and announce that fact. How many hijackers with > paper cutters do you think would be willing to go up against an armed > marshall? It would cost a lot less (i.e. no tax hikes!) to just change foreign policy to reflect a more humble approach. If you go around acting the ass when you've already been bitch slapped, you just haven't figured it out yet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 8 01:45:40 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040807214903.008c8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040807214903.008c8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200408080647.CAA14359@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The whole thing reminds me of the StarTrek movie where the Enterprise > travels back in time to 1980 or thereabouts and Scotty is trying to > use then current computer. He keeps saying "Computer" and trying to > TELL it what to do. Finally one of the people from 1980 hands him a > keyboard. He looks at it for a moment and relies "How Quaint"! Ah yes, that was from Save The Whales, I think. (I forget the formal title; that's how I've always thought of it....) > Lets just hope that by 2036 no one will remember MicrosSoft and > Windows! I hope they _will_ remember them (as historical mistakes, to be sure). "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it." /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 8 03:21:41 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040808082141.GA16816@hoss.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:49:09PM -0500, Paul Thompson wrote: [HP9000 K570] > This particular rev of the PARISC is still 32 bit. The 64 bit machines > did not come until later. The performance sounds about right. According to http://www.openpa.net/systems/hawk.html the K570 has PA8200 CPUs @ 200 MHz. PA8200 == PA-2.0 == 64 bit. For speed comparision see http://www.openpa.net/bench.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Aug 8 05:22:04 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:12:12 EDT." <3930712.1091837533311.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200408081022.i78AM4Bd029383@mwave.heeltoe.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > >As for it being BS, I disagree. I would rather have things safer than welcome >another attack on US soil because things weren't being checked. This is so off topic that we should all stop. But if you think screening passangers at airports is making air travel safer then you are sadly mistaken. I would suggest you try (1) getting on the tarmac at any airport - trivial or (2) getting something through security via the food/sale items sold at the kiosks near the gates - even more trivial. Bad people are not stupid. There are so many holes in the system that we could spend the next 6 months itemizing them here. -brad From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 8 07:57:40 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040807222046.008bd4f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040808085740.008c3900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:21 PM 8/7/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> If you really want to stop airline hijacking. Lock the cockpit (that >> STILL hasn't been fully impemented!), Arm all the pilots (Ha! They're still >> not allowing ANY pilots to carry guns AFIK) and put one or more ARMED sky >> marshalls on EVERY flight and announce that fact. How many hijackers with >> paper cutters do you think would be willing to go up against an armed >> marshall? > >It would cost a lot less (i.e. no tax hikes!) to just change foreign >policy to reflect a more humble approach. But Texico, Chevron, BP, IMF and Dick Cheney (among MANY others) will never permit that to happen! my 2 cents worth, Joe If you go around acting the ass >when you've already been bitch slapped, you just haven't figured it out >yet. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >+ From shirker at mooli.org.uk Sun Aug 8 08:08:59 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner/lubricant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Anyone care to share their experiences with either of these or make > another recommendation? Hi Bill, I've used http://servisol.co.uk/data/SS10_data.htm (probably more common in Britain than North America though) with success. Works a treat on noisy pots too, if you can get some inside the mechanism and then give it a good twiddle. Ed. From garybenton at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 18:58:33 2004 From: garybenton at yahoo.com (Gary Benton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Tapes for the 9010 Message-ID: <20040802235833.70120.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> Don, I just read a message of yours from two years ago (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-August/001261.html) and am wondering if you are still looking for tapes for the Fluke 9010. I may have some. Thanks, Gary __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From chowell2 at pacbell.net Mon Aug 2 19:01:22 2004 From: chowell2 at pacbell.net (Colin Douglas Howell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing Message-ID: <410ED5D2.800@pacbell.net> Tony Duell writes: > >> just get into different tools then older people who didn't have a computer >> to play with when they grew up. When I was young I went out and purchased >> some ram chips to fix my dead C64 (was stupid and touched a staticy TV while >> my other hand was on the keyboard, ESD), equipment was expensive. Today if a >> pc card breaks its cheaper to chuck it and get a new/used one then it is to >> even think of looking for the parts to fix it, same with all other > > We've had this before, and I still don't believe it. If you can honstly > tell me that it's cheaper (and quicker) to replace some large PCB costing > several hundreed pounds/dollars than to find the dead I/O buffer chip > (which sould cost a few 10s of pence, and which would take me about 10 > minutes to find at most), then I have to wonder what planet you're on. How about replacing a card costing $25 to $50, vs. replacing the fried surface-mounted ASIC (one of only two or three chips on the card), which incidentally is only available to OEMs in the first place? In order to make mass-market electronics so cheap, they have had to be tailored to large-scale industrial producers, rendering them inaccessible to mere mortals. To take one extreme example, the single IC of modern calculators isn't packaged at all in the conventional sense--the chip is mounted right on the printed circuit board and encased in a blob of resin to protect it. And, of course, the logical conclusion of integrated circuit technology is to get rid of the circuit board and separate components entirely. Colin From dj.taylor at starpower.net Mon Aug 2 20:33:12 2004 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: RQZX1 setup? In-Reply-To: <410CA467.8050907@mdrconsult.com> References: <410CA467.8050907@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040802212509.01b03350@pop.starpower.net> I have the manual for the RQZX1, there are two ways to get the Resident Firmware to boot: 1. From the ODT level; At the system prompt, type the base address followed by a slash (/); @17772150/177777 1 type in a one after you open the location and hit return. Then open the next location and type in 123 @17772152/5000 123 @0G start at 0 2. The other way is select DU253 or MU253 as the boot device. This will start the diagnostics from ROM. Once in the diagnostics you have to get the controller to 'Autoconfigure' so it can see all your SCSI devices. Doug At 04:05 AM 8/1/2004, you wrote: > I'm trying to find documentation on an RQZX1 Qbus SCSI controller. I'd > like to know the dip switch settings, and especially how to access the > ROM-based configuration tool. > > Any help would be sincerely appreciated. > > > Doc Shipley From us032560 at mindspring.com Tue Aug 3 02:22:42 2004 From: us032560 at mindspring.com (Robert Garner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation (Mike Ross) In-Reply-To: <200408021705.i72H4rbf077627@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Chandra, Mike, I was delighted to have purchased the Xerox Alto-I from John and Heather several months ago. I was equally excited when I purchased from John the McMasterUniv/KevinStumpf PDP-15 several years ago. I used/programmed both of these machines long ago at Xerox PARC and Arizona State University, respectively. I invited Chuck Thacker (designer) & Ron Cude over soon after the Alto-I arrived to review the boards and discuss a bring-up strategy. Although I'm progressing very slowly, I've been reforming/checking the caps/power supplies. OK so far. Some day I'll get info up on a web site to share... - Robert p.s. Check out "Dealers of Lightning: Xerox PARC and the Dawn of the Computer Age". A generally accurate technical history of PARC during the 70's/80's. > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:59:30 +0000 > From: "Mike Ross" > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Cc: cbajpai@comcast.net > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:32:18 -0400 > From: "Chandra Bajpai" > Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation > >> Has anyone every heard of these guys.they seem to up in Canada and are >> painstakingly restoring an Xerox Alto I since April 2003. > > > > That would be the Bordynuiks, Heather & John IIRC. They had a bunch of > stuff > on ebay a while back, bought some pdp-11/20 memory from them. Other > than > that my contact with them has been minimal. > > They own pdp8.com - they had some nice stuff, including a nice pdp-15 > with > drum IIRC. Think Robert Garner has that one now... > > The Alto restoration is one *very* impressive bit of work, they're > serious > hardware engineers - seem to recall they also (according to rumour) had > something to do with Paul Allen and his KL... > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 12, Issue 4 > ************************************* > From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Tue Aug 3 03:54:05 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE940957F3@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 02 August 2004 23:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto > Restoration + Emulation > > > On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 19:56, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Apple /// (possibly lots worldwide; there don't seem to be many > > > people this side of the pond who have seen one though) > > > > Very common. > > I figured they might be - just not in this part of the world, it seems > :-) Wonder how many were actually sold in the UK... At least 3 - you've got 1, I've got 2 and I bet Tony's got one somewhere... What might be uncommon these days is a *working* /// :) Cheers w From JCalvert at trinityvideo.net Tue Aug 3 08:00:24 2004 From: JCalvert at trinityvideo.net (John Calvert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Looking for Steve Loboyko Message-ID: <695DE675089E944881D266D47AD2524E03AD18@trinity1.corp.trinityvideo.net> I am looking for a Steve Loboyko that use to work for VSI and BellSouth in Charlotte. If this gets to you Steve, this is coming from John Calvert, please send a reply to me. THANKS! From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Tue Aug 3 08:02:22 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095804@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 03 August 2004 12:25 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto > Restoration + Emulation > > I found an RML advert in an old comp magazine at Bletchley of > a pair of cream 480Z's along with a *white* 380Z at the > weekend. I'm assuming it was a mock-up as I've never known of > a white 380Z before. *cough* Who found it? :) I think I'll borrow it next weekend and scan it on sat night. Can you remember which mag it was in? Cya w From JMeyer101 at aol.com Tue Aug 3 10:56:24 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: GRiD Compass II 1137 Message-ID: <11C055B2.25C1D2B4.0233EB56@aol.com> I picked up the Grid with no documentation. The device boots up and lets me choose an OS (either MS-DOS 2.11 with BIOS Version C or Version 134.1.4 GRiD-OS / Version 31.0.0 of Common Code). If I boot into MS-DOS, I get an A: prompt. If I do a "dir" command, it brings up 3 files but that's it. If I boot into the GRiD-OS, I can get to some menus, but then it needs a password to continue. Does anyone know a hack to bypass the password? Or does anyone have access to the GRiD-OS software so I can reinstall? I would like to get this thing working but it is very difficult to find any information. Any ideas? Thanks, Jeff From hrs-accounting at wi.rr.com Tue Aug 3 11:14:37 2004 From: hrs-accounting at wi.rr.com (Connie Kreis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: AT&T General Purpose Sychronous AT/Enhanced card Message-ID: <000901c47974$fa8d0690$67020a0a@saulkville.highreliabilitysystems.com> Do you still have this card? Connie Kreis Financial Manager High Reliability Systems 469 Decorah Road West Bend, WI 53095 p 262-268-0911 f 263-268-0967 hrs-accounting@wi.rr.com From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Tue Aug 3 11:24:35 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE94095815@emma.Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope > Sent: 03 August 2004 16:30 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: rarest computers > > > Magnevox Odyssey 1 - Not really a computer (It was analog!), but > > farily uncommon, and predecessor to the really-a-computer Odyssey 2. > > Wow! I didn't know this.. (that it's analog) .. very cool! :) Mine's been disassembled here: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Magnavox/odyssey.php 'all' that circuitry can generate is 2 player objects, a ball object and optionally a net object down the middle. Top stuff! Cheers w From nick at computer-history.org Tue Aug 3 16:44:29 2004 From: nick at computer-history.org (nick@computer-history.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation References: <200408021753.KAA26923@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00a601c479a3$0e6b9c20$7a00a8c0@themillers> My most uncommon machines are: Atari 1400XL - Prototype Cybervision 2001 - Apparently not many of these were made, very little info on the web Jupiter Ace 4000 - Forth Machine digital group system - Cool multi-CPU machine Commodore 64 s/n 2330 - More prototype than production Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >They have a *very* well done restoration page. Cool project! However, I > >don't believe their claim to have the only original Alto left in existence > >is accurate. > > Hi > I was just wondering. What people on this list consider their > rarest computers in their collections. Here is my list > > 1. Nicolet 80 ( 20 bit mini with core. working condition. Only know > of 2 others. I doubt there are more than 10 left > anywhere. ) > 2. SIM-4 4004 development system ( most likely fewer than 30 left. Running. > I only know of 2 others. ) > 3. Olivetti M-20 ( Few in the US but maybe a couple hundred in Europe. > Z8000 processor. Runs ) > 4. Jupiter Ace ( Several hundred most likely exist but unusual in that > it had Forth in ROM. Runs ) > 5. NC4000 Delta Board ( Most likely only 100 around but most have no > idea as to the collectable nature. These might be > found in embedded system. These are unique in that they > have the Forth processor on them that was designed by > NOVIX and Chuck Moore. A 4 Mhz processor could run rings > around a 33MHz 80386 of its time. Things like sorting > 1000 integers in 19.2ms ) > Dwight > > > From blair at chard.net Tue Aug 3 22:25:49 2004 From: blair at chard.net (Blair Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable Message-ID: <4110573D.6000905@chard.net> Hey all, The subject says it all: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113549953&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT Sincerely, Blair Miller From pnt1 at york.ac.uk Wed Aug 4 03:20:04 2004 From: pnt1 at york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6540000.1091607604@libcat1.york.ac.uk> --On Tuesday, August 03, 2004 23:33:18 +0100 Tony Duell wrote: > > > The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw > > > and file. Well done they are not! > > > > Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard > > to homebrew. > > I beleive they're both genuine Exidy ones, although the ROMs in one > were replaced by EPROMs (I have the mask-programmed ROMs somewhere > too). Mine are rather like that too. Tony, are both of yours Exidy Standard BASIC, or do you have a WP Pac or a DevPac? Does anyone have WP or DevPac manuals? -- Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 4 08:04:50 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Teac floppy replacement Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4A71@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Thanks for the info. I guess for this test I have to find a replacement high-denisty drive. The drives in the unit are, apparently, high-density drives but the disks are 360k disks made with another working system. -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:41 AM To: rcini@optonline.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teac floppy replacement On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Hello, all: > > I'm trying to get my "new" Micromint SB180 to work with > the floppy drives > that came with it. I've been given two sets of disks, both of which were > made on a known-working system but which produce read errors on mine. > > The drives pass the internal disgnostics that are in the > SB180 ROM, but I > want to eliminate the drive from the problem by swapping another in. It > appears to use standard 5.25" 1/2-height PC drives except that the "old" > drive has a head-load solenoid while the new one doesn't. > > The model number of the "old" drive is FD55F-03-U and the > model number of > the "new" drive is FD55BV-36-U. There are differences in the jumper > designations between the models so I can't readily map the settings. > > Can anyone help with this? Thanks. Rich, the 55F is a 96tpi drive while the 55BV is 48tpi. That difference is likely the cause of your problem. - don > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From JMeyer101 at aol.com Wed Aug 4 12:39:18 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <65534BD5.06BC119B.0233EB56@aol.com> The rarest computer I now have is a working MCS Intellec 4. I also have a GRiD Compass II 1137 (not as rare as the Intellec but there are not many of the 1137's out there). Jeff Meyer From gtulloch at shaw.ca Wed Aug 4 17:06:13 2004 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (Gordon Tulloch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Vector Flashwriter Message-ID: <41115DD5.5050906@shaw.ca> Hey all: I'm fixing up a Vector Graphic MZ machine and have a problem with the Flashwriter II - all that comes up on the terminal is garbage when I boot the machine. Someone has the Flashwriter (1!) card on sale on eBay, anyone know where I might find docs for this thing? I need to compare them to the Flashwriter II to see if the Mindless Terminal changed between versions or if the older board will work on the newer "terminal". Anyone know of any docs (they're not on the Harte collection, alas) out there? Or any ideas if this will work? Thanks! Regards, Gord From pzachary at sasquatch.com Wed Aug 4 19:17:47 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: RT-11 / PDP-11 Software Users In-Reply-To: <410E3DA8.F5D6986C@compsys.to> References: <410E3DA8.F5D6986C@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56232.216.218.236.136.1091665067.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> > The reason the subject is for "Software Users" is that ""Hardware > Users" will probably want to use ONLY standard DEC distributions of > RT-11 which sufficiently exercise the real PDP-11 hardware. The goal > of this post is to reach and elicit comments from all of those hobby > RT-11 Users who want the bugs fixed and / or want some enhancements. > cool project and thanks for doing it, of course my problem is I use the real hardware, in fact I'm largly giving up the new (Qbus) machines, having a pdp-11/40 on my desk is pretty cool... and I've gotten rid of most of my pc software, so until I can find a unibus cdrom controller I'm a bit out of luck. I would very much like a V1 and V2 distro, so I'd have something to use on my 11/20 (it would take less space on the desk). Actually, as a somewhat new user to RT11, I'm being continually impressed by it, I had been wanting a print spooler and found it, then I was wishing for history, now I read about SL. sadly, I think it is about time to move on, the 6.3 filenames and the lack of a tree filesystem are my real problems. I do plan to continue to use RT to test machines and show it at the VCF, so the date being fixed for Y2k would be a help, speaking of HELP, I find it pretty incomplete, if you are looking for a way for novice/hobbiests to play with RT, and most of us have only spotty documentation a bigger help library might be a priority. my $.02 take care, Pavl_ From henk.stegeman at shell.com Thu Aug 5 02:37:31 2004 From: henk.stegeman at shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITADEI) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E02B0C4D8@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Hi all, How about this one... Build it myself, so I know for sure only ONE exists of it on the globe. See: http://www.siconic.com/crap/henk/ Regards Henk Stegeman From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 5 15:31:19 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Foam pads for keytronics keyboards ? (& SOL-20 with Helios for sale) In-Reply-To: <200408052023.i75KNCbc023130@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200408052031.i75KVEVe002974@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> This will seem like a digression, but it's not. I have a SOL & Helios pair on E-Bay right now (if you are interested, hurry, it ends tomorrow): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5112120888 If you read the auction, I discuss the keyboard issue at length and in the set of 12 photos for the auction I even took a photo of a keyboard being rebuilt. I'm surprised that no one asked me where I got the foam pads. Anyway, they came from: Mike Stephens Mil-Key Corp. m-corp@qwest.net You can buy a new PC (cordless) keyboard for what it will cost you to rework a SOL keyboard (or any other Keytronic keyboard using these pads), but as far as I know it's the only source. HE SAYS THAT WHEN THE CURRENT SUPPLY IS GONE, THERE WILL BE NO MORE, ****EVER****. AND HE SAYS THAT IT'S ALMOST GONE. You can see a photo of the pads in the SOL auction above. They are different from (and, I'm hoping, superior to) both the original pads and the later ones used in the Sun keyboards. From chad at www.tillmanlaw.com Thu Aug 5 18:11:41 2004 From: chad at www.tillmanlaw.com (Chad D. Tillman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Searching for SunOS 4.1.3 Message-ID: <00c401c47b41$95cb5d00$6901a8c0@tillc400a> An acquaintance referred me to this group because he thought someone here could help me out. I am looking for a copy of SunOS 4.1.3, preferably version C. Can anyone assist me in finding a copy for purchase? I have an old Sparc with a program titled SNAP that was written for this particular version of SunOS, but I do not have this version...only Solaris 2.0 and SNAP will not run on it. Thanks for your help! Chad Tillman chad@ti-law.com 704-458-2423 From ofthe_girl at hotmail.com Wed Aug 4 11:21:58 2004 From: ofthe_girl at hotmail.com (Cass) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: TIL306...any leads Message-ID: I am looking for TIL306 circuits do you have any leads as to where i can get some?? best regards -Cassandra Munro From cc at corti-net.de Fri Aug 6 03:20:57 2004 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040804093900.081f8e38@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, John Foust wrote: > I'd love to be able to read, write and archive my old 8 floppies, too. > I'd once day-dreamed of getting a Compaticard and dedicating an old PC > to the task. I use the onboard FDC on my Asus Pentium 100 board which works fine in FM, too. Or use any standard HDC/FDC combi card with e.g. WD37C65, DP8374 or the like that are able to handle FM. > But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the > nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique > floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's > leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an > archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. > It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info > such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be > able to store the label along with the archived disk image. This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called TeleDisk, also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be found everywhere on the net. Christian From jhhaynes at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 10:43:30 2004 From: jhhaynes at earthlink.net (jhhaynes@earthlink.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: [GreenKeys] MITS Teletype Interface Board In-Reply-To: <41125248.16308.6AF4403D@localhost> Message-ID: Well, that's interesting. Looks like MITS went to considerable expense to avoid using the selector magnet driver and other parts that Teletype normally supplied built in on a private line Model 33. -- jhhaynes at earthlink dot net From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Aug 6 12:02:59 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: References: <000701c479d9$00552260$030aa8c0@bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Aug 3, 4 09:10:39 pm Message-ID: <200408061703.i76H31xX025870@mail.bcpl.net> On 4 Aug 2004 at 5:18, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, there's a little extra circuitry (transistor, a few passives) > to provided a simple amplitude envelope. Not just a sudden start/stop > beep, but one that tails away. > > No real benefit from having this, but that _was_ HP for you. Indeed, the same thing was done in the HP 64000 workstations. They used a 555 timer for the tone generator, a one-shot for the gate, but then added a transistor and an R-C circuit to provide a fast attack, slow decay envelope, resulting in a characteristic "Bink!" sound. Melodious chimes must have been an HP corporate directive back then. ;-) -- Dave From steve at wren.vt220.org Fri Aug 6 17:49:34 2004 From: steve at wren.vt220.org (Steve Young) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: Free hardware to a good home. Message-ID: <20040806224934.GA10998@wren.vt220.org> Here's a bunch of stuff I have to get rid of. I really hope there's a good home out there for the somewhat rare Sparc I have, I think it's a pretty one-of-a-kind device. - A portable Sparc I have that was custom manufactured for the US military. Built to mil-spec, it comes in an imposing grey briefcase. Somewhat portable, has a battery backup that seems to consist of 22 NiCad AA batteries. Has a mysterious IC slot on the bottom with no chip in it that is not part of the original Sparc hardware it's based off of. 64mb RAM, it's an IPX under the hood. Has no disk, and the disk enclosure uses some kind of proprietary connector that you might be able to get to work with a normal SCSI drive. It has all sorts of cool features like an airtight enclosure and a depressurization valve for lugging it through the desert and changes in altitude. Last time I powered it on it worked fine and was able to netboot SunOS 4.1.4. - Two C64s + drives, an apple 2c, mac plus (4mb RAM), apple imagewriter dot matrix printer with about a 50 yr supply of ink cartridges and refill kits. - A real VT220 with a dodgy power button that could probably be fixed easily. - A miscellaneous assortment of external SCSI enclosures. All this (or part of this) can be yours for S&H. I'm not part of this mailing list so please e-mail me privately. Steve. From sieler at allegro.com Sat Aug 7 01:53:41 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: OT-ish: What's the HP9000 K Class K570 server equivalent to? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 06, 2004 08:34:32 PM Message-ID: <200408070653.i776rfv11043@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I just got an HP9000 K Class K570 server. It's got dual 200Mhz PA-RISC > processors and 1GB RAM, plus some arsenal of hard drives. PA8200, 4 MB cache, supports up to 6 CPUs, TPM 5700 to 21300 max RAM 4GB (may be marketing limit, as PA8200 supports more than 4 GB) (64-bit PA-RISC) Fairly old...what's the serial number on back? (A####A#####, or some such...the first four digits tells us the manufacture week, in standard HP format (yyww, where yy is 1960 relative) My guess is 5 to 10 years old. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 12:41:40 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:59 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel In-Reply-To: <200408071631.MAA26511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040806203023.04d297d8@mail.30below.com> <200408071631.MAA26511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <26c11a6404080710412d5fd09b@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:30:51 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse wrote: > > When is VCF Canada 1.0? > > I'd like to know too! Especially if it's out Ontario/Qu?bec way. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Any plans for VCF UK ? Dan From ryandc at shaw.ca Sat Aug 7 19:53:34 2004 From: ryandc at shaw.ca (Ryan Clifford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL Message-ID: <000001c47ce2$2245f640$0200a8c0@desky> I read in a post somewhere that you still have the DDIAL software and modems? Is this true And if so would you be willing to part with it? Thanks Ryan From nick at computer-history.org Sat Aug 7 16:58:33 2004 From: nick at computer-history.org (nick@computer-history.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Power Supply Repair Message-ID: <002a01c47cc9$af227c00$7a00a8c0@themillers> Hello, Does anyone out there have any words of wisdom for someone looking into repairing an Apple Lisa power supply? I have 3 power supplies, 2x 1.2A and 1x 1.8A, and each has its own set of issues. One is just plain dead, the safety switch engages OK but nothing powers up. Another one, the 1.8A unit, pops the GFI on the circuit as soon as it is plugged in. The third one makes a chirping sound when the power switch is pressed. The chirping continues as long as the switch is pressed. The PS that trips the GFI was working fine about a year ago but seems to have some issues now. Each power supply was tested in two different working Apple Lisas. Each has been opened up and each looks fine, no noticeable damage, scorches, ect. If anyone has had similar problems I would be interested in any solutions you came up with. Thanks, Nick From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 8 11:01:07 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <20040807124849.B29463@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040807152544.010EF3CCA@spies.com> <20040807124849.B29463@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200408081101.07330.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 07 August 2004 14:50, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.johntitor.com/ > > for more than you want to know about this loon. > > It ways that he was going back to 2036. > > WHEN does the Unix Date/Time clock overflow? Sometime in 2038, given a 32-bit second counter. Oddly enough, I was thinking about the same thing... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Aug 8 11:54:30 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: contact lube Message-ID: <000401c47d68$5fbd5190$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> While watching me struggle with the cards in my OSI C4P, someone at VCF East (I can't remember who, sorry if it was you) suggested a product (I can't remember what, I was a bit distracted) that they used to clean and lubricate contacts. I just did a little googling and there seem to be two "major" products: Stabilant 22 and DeoxIT. Anyone care to share their experiences with either of these or make another recommendation? Thanks, Bill ********************************* Hey Bill, That was me - while DeoxIT is great for cleaning contacts, the lube I told you about is Nygel - check out www.nyelubricants.com - which is more like the Dow silicone that Dwight mentioned. It's especially good on the pin-type connectors used for the SS-50/30 buses, OSI, etc. as well as Heathkit H8 and H89. You could even use DeoxIT first to clean the contacts. You won't believe the difference after you've applied an appropriate lube. best, Jack From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Aug 8 11:55:03 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: going...going... Message-ID: <1091984102.6049.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Hi, I have a Sun Sparc Server 490 that I posted as being available on the list for pickup (ie *free*) some time ago. Someone had previously wanted it but they seemed to have fallen off the face of the Earth. So, if someone doesn't claim this (and take it) it's going to the scrapper. Speak up now or don't bitch when it gets melted down! -- TTFN - Guy From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Aug 8 12:05:36 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200408061851.i76IpAHt007258@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <41165D60.9080205@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 12:40 PM 8/6/04 -0700, you wrote: > >>On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >> >> >>>Well last year I travelled (from the US) to Europe with a suitcase full >>>of de-commissioned computers (incl. a Sun Ultra 1 which filled most of >>>the suitcase) and spare parts (about 5-8 year old stuff). Since I >>>couldn't care less about eproms or other media, I just let it go >>>through the normal checked luggage check. The suitcase was not locked >>>(as per guidelines) and I know they opened it (not in my presence, so I >>>don't really know how much time they spent looking though it), but >>>nobody said anything to me about it, and the suitcase went through >>>without any problems. >> >>Sending a computer through checked baggage doesn't even elicit an errant >>brainwave. >> >> >>>If you are packing clothing with the equipment (as padding or to save >>>carrying a second suitcase) I would advise you to pack them in >>>transparent plastic bags, so that the checkers can go through them >>>without spilling them all over the floor. Also avoid small unpacked >>>items that can fall off the suitcase during the visual inspection >>>process. >> >>You know when your bag was checked because the TSA puts a form in your bag >>saying they did. > > > I beg to differ. I sat in Kansas City airport two years ago and spent > abut 3 or 4 hours with the security people and watched as they opened > numerous bags and I didn't see them put a sticker on ANY of them. Even when > flying and reclaiming baggage I've never seen one of those stickers. > > OK I may as well tell this story too. I was in KC and went scrounging > with Gary Hildebrand and found a black Bell and Howell Apple II. I had > called the airline and changed my departure two days ahead of time. But > they failed to schedule the new departure so when I got to the airport > UNSCHEDULED the red flags went up and I was tagged to be inspected > everywhere that I went. Luckily I arrived at the airport about 6 hours > early. I had to take EVERYTHING and go down to security and let them > inspect it (hence the LONG wait). I/they didn't have a problem with > anything but the Apple II and were going to send me to the maintenance area > and have them disassemble and inspect the Apple. Sheeshh! I said "Hey wait > a minute it opens right up" and showed them how to open the top so they > could look inside it. After that they were happy (until I got to the next > checkpoint!) I asked why they didn't just X=ray the Apple II and he said > that they were afraid that it might conceal plastic knives or something > that wouldn't show up on X-ray. I don't know why it would have mattered > since I was putting the computer in checked baggage but no one ever said > that logic or brains were required at TSA. > > Important Lesson: NEVER show up at an airport with a confirmed > reservation! If you do, you're guaranteed to get the full treatment! Or with reservations made in the last 24 hours, or with a return flight in less than 72 hours but you're checking baggage, or, or, or.... I travel a lot, mostly within the lower 48, and I almost always end up coming home with a new toy or two. In the last two years, every time I've gotten on a plane at least one ofmy checked items has been searched. I've also lost several small items, the most costly being a small folder with *all* the receipts for a 2-week expense report. The most recent was the spare battery pack for my Sony camera. Anything that doesn't look like laptop or camera accessories I put in checked baggage. It makes life easier. :) One oddity - printed overhead transparencies look like plastic explosive under the fleuroscope. My company's [very sensible] policy is that I carry on everything I need for the first day of class, including presentation materials. Whenever that includes transparencies I'm 100% guaranteed to sit for the explosives swab test. Doc From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Aug 8 12:27:44 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <16658.52548.468000.600186@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> <16658.52548.468000.600186@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Steven" == Steven N Hirsch writes: > > Steven> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > >> PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a CPU > >> designed for reliable operation for real time control of things > >> like power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed it was so > >> simple that programs could be proven to be bug free. I was > >> wondering if they manufactured or sold any the devices. > > Steven> That would be the British "Viper" CPU. Computational theory > Steven> suggests (proves, perhaps? - it's been a few years) that use > Steven> of hardware or software stacks renders behavior > Steven> indeterminate. > > Baloney. Anyone who has paid any attention to Dijkstra knows that > such a statement would have to be complete and utter nonsense. I'm only going by what I recall from the Byte article. Let's not start a religous war, please? From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Aug 8 12:50:39 2004 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: FA: Parsytec Xplorer Transputer Workstation - 16 T805-30MHz transputers with 4MB for each processor Message-ID: <0I25007DW2WIQK@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, Parsytec Xplorer Parallel Transputer Workstation on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5114739591&ssPageNam e=STRK:MESE:IT This is actually one of my auctions... Cheers, Ram From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Aug 8 12:51:31 2004 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? Message-ID: <1091987490.2048.3.camel@fortran> EUREKA! Reading Scott Stevens' post regarding the FORTRAN decks, a bell suddenly rang inside my wee head. http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1965.html The 7090 had an accurate, mechanical TOD clock. I feel so clever now! ^_^ -tsb Please CC any replies to me (toresbe@ifi.uio.no) as my cctech digest is unreliable at best. From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Aug 8 13:02:15 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) References: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <016701c47d71$d6b24400$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> a pity you were not in Arizona, we would have given the Wang a home in a heartbeat! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: ; "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:05 PM Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > ... > > Anything that comes my way like that I usually channel over the the > > Computer History Museum. This would include several important items so > > far. > > I'm not so keen on the CHM. I don't know if I aired this already or > not, but I think not. > > When I left the bay area a couple months ago, I tried to give my working > wang 2200 with terminal, manuals, working floppy disk system, > fixed/removable hard disk system, and disks. > > It took a LOT of work (weeks of one-sided prodding) on my part to have > them consider it. "The curator will contact you in a few days..." (a > week passes), another email, "The curator will contact you in a few > days...", more time passes, another email, "Could you describe it > again?", etc. > > After more than a month of delay, I received and email with the tenor of > a form letter along these lines: Dear Jim, thank you for considering the > CHM. Unfortunately at this time we don't have an interest in obtaining > your keypunch machine. Here are the names of some other museums that > may be interested ... > > It went to the digibarn instead. That they didn't want my computer > isn't what ruffled me -- it was their seeming indifference to what I > thought was a generous offer. At any rate, I'm sure the computer ended > up with someone (Bruce) who appreciates it more than the CHM. > > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 8 13:12:52 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Up for auction: Lynx 470 floppy tester Message-ID: <200408081112520636.74A5F5ED@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, I've just started an E-pay auction for an item that those of you working on 8" floppy drives (and even the smaller ones) may find useful. It's a Lynx 470 floppy drive exerciser/alignment tester. It's in good shape, complete with a bunch of accessories and carrying case. Bid starts at $10. FWIW, I remember seeing these sets in the catalogs for Specialized Products company in the late 80's. Horribly expensive back then... $1,500+, if I recall correctly. Anyway, pop over to E-pay and do a seller search for bftbell if you're interested. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Aug 8 13:18:38 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) References: <200408061136.HAA14183@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <018f01c47d74$203f1560$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Brian.... send us some links to some of the interactive displays.... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 4:36 AM Subject: Re: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) > And thusly Bob Shannon spake: > > > > It was painful to walk through that place and see restorable hardware > > gutted and filled with strings of winking christmas lights. > > > > There was a TON of really important and rare stuff that got trashed > > there. CADR's, a Foonly, I think even > > the original CONS machine went there, never to see the light of day again. > > I visited the Computer History Museum shortly after I moved to Boston.. It > was *such* a disappointment. :( OOOhhh! I get to feel how warm a vacuum > tube gets... > > It is pretty sad when the best part of the tour was seeing the pictures of > important people in the computer industry at the end..... > > They needed to take a cue from places like the Ontario Science Centre where > interactivity is the focus!! > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Aug 8 13:19:42 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) References: <4110528F.8060101@pacbell.net> <1091615029.26885.44.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <019601c47d74$46697050$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> yes, it is best to call the person back the same day... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:23 AM Subject: Re: CHM gripe (was: rarest computers) > On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 03:05, Jim Battle wrote: > > I'm not so keen on the CHM. I don't know if I aired this already or > > not, but I think not. > > > > When I left the bay area a couple months ago, I tried to give my working > > wang 2200 with terminal, manuals, working floppy disk system, > > fixed/removable hard disk system, and disks. > > > > It took a LOT of work (weeks of one-sided prodding) on my part to have > > them consider it. "The curator will contact you in a few days..." (a > > week passes), another email, "The curator will contact you in a few > > days...", more time passes, another email, "Could you describe it > > again?", etc. > > > > After more than a month of delay, I received and email with the tenor of > > a form letter along these lines: Dear Jim, thank you for considering the > > CHM. Unfortunately at this time we don't have an interest in obtaining > > your keypunch machine. Here are the names of some other museums that > > may be interested ... > > Well, Bletchley's not so much different I suppose. The museum's horribly > under-staffed by volunteers who are naturally busy doing other things > most of the time. The volunteers aren't local enough to see immediately > what examples of the machine being offered we have on site and the > condition. The only time there's generally a quick response is when it's > something we know we either don't have, or something so common that we > know we have lots of them or would have no trouble finding one when we > suddenly needed one. > > Personally the first thing I usually ask of anyone offering to donate > something is how soon they need it gone :-) We've had people throw stuff > in the bin before because they haven't had a response the same day. > > cheers, > > Jules > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 8 13:49:41 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: GRiD Compass II 1137 In-Reply-To: <11C055B2.25C1D2B4.0233EB56@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040808144941.0094db20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jeff, I don't know about your particular model but some of the Grids had an EPROM in them that you could boot from. As you would expect they have very few files on them. If the CMOs lost it's settings you could still boot from the EPROM and you would only see it's few files and you couldn't see any of the files on the hard drive. It sounds like this might be your situation. On mine the EPROM was located on the left just above the keyboard. Joe At 11:56 AM 8/3/04 -0400, you wrote: >I picked up the Grid with no documentation. The device boots up and lets me choose an OS (either MS-DOS 2.11 with BIOS Version C or Version 134.1.4 GRiD-OS / Version 31.0.0 of Common Code). > >If I boot into MS-DOS, I get an A: prompt. If I do a "dir" command, it brings up 3 files but that's it. > >If I boot into the GRiD-OS, I can get to some menus, but then it needs a password to continue. Does anyone know a hack to bypass the password? Or does anyone have access to the GRiD-OS software so I can reinstall? > >I would like to get this thing working but it is very difficult to find any information. Any ideas? > >Thanks, > >Jeff > > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 13:51:14 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Introduction to Decysytem-20 Assembly Language Programming Message-ID: Someone interested by the book : Introduction to Decysytem-20 Assembly Language Programming, Ralph E Gorin, 1981. email me. Thanks Stephane From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 8 14:06:27 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Teac floppy replacement In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4A71@mail10.congressfinancial.com> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4A71@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <20040808120010.A42272@shell.lmi.net> The 55F is a "720K" drive, NOT a 1.2M. 80 tracks, with 4 or 5 K formatted on each track. 300 Oersted disks Calling it "high density" (600 Oersted) might add to the confusion. If your system disks that you are trying to use were written with a 360K drive, then THAT is what you should try. But,... be aware that a "720K" drive uses the same spec of disks as a 360K. So, if all that you have to go on is the manufacturer's label on the disks, then "360K" could mean that they were recorded 360K, OR recorded 720K, depending on drive. On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > Thanks for the info. I guess for this test I have to find a replacement > high-denisty drive. The drives in the unit are, apparently, high-density > drives but the disks are 360k disks made with another working system. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:41 AM > To: rcini@optonline.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: Teac floppy replacement > > > > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > Hello, all: > > > > I'm trying to get my "new" Micromint SB180 to work with > > the floppy drives > > that came with it. I've been given two sets of disks, both of which were > > made on a known-working system but which produce read errors on mine. > > > > The drives pass the internal disgnostics that are in the > > SB180 ROM, but I > > want to eliminate the drive from the problem by swapping another in. It > > appears to use standard 5.25" 1/2-height PC drives except that the "old" > > drive has a head-load solenoid while the new one doesn't. > > > > The model number of the "old" drive is FD55F-03-U and the > > model number of > > the "new" drive is FD55BV-36-U. There are differences in the jumper > > designations between the models so I can't readily map the settings. > > > > Can anyone help with this? Thanks. > > Rich, the 55F is a 96tpi drive while the 55BV is 48tpi. That > difference is likely the cause of your problem. > > - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 13:48:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE940957F3@emma.Beovax.Local> from "Adrian Graham" at Aug 3, 4 09:54:05 am Message-ID: [Apple ///] > At least 3 - you've got 1, I've got 2 and I bet Tony's got one > somewhere... Actually, I don't have one... > What might be uncommon these days is a *working* /// :) But if I did, I'd get it working :-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 8 14:12:41 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable In-Reply-To: <4110573D.6000905@chard.net> References: <4110573D.6000905@chard.net> Message-ID: <20040808120654.P42272@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Blair Miller wrote: > Hey all, > The subject says it all: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113549953 > Sincerely, > Blair Miller starting price is kinda high ($50) Although he says that it works, but that he doesn't know what ports it has, if you go to the picture of the expansion you'll see Compaq CGA, Compaq parallel, non-Compaq parallel (Compaq uses different hold down screw, but permits 5150 style) and a non-Compaq serial port (probably 8250) rattling around, not plugged in at all! From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 14:16:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <00a601c479a3$0e6b9c20$7a00a8c0@themillers> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 nick@computer-history.org wrote: > Cybervision 2001 - Apparently not many of these were made, very little info > on the web Wow, that's a new one to me. Very interesting. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From oliv555 at arrl.net Sun Aug 8 14:20:17 2004 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Some DEC freebies In-Reply-To: <4113E768.3060505@arrl.net> References: <4113E768.3060505@arrl.net> Message-ID: <41167CF1.5020803@arrl.net> Most of these items still available. Last chance for pickup is this afternoon; will haul off tomorrow. thanks. -no no wrote: > All of this stuff is going to Goodwill on Monday, so, if you > are in the Houston area .... > > Alpha XL366 +kbd+mouse > VT320 +manual > VT420 +manual > (3) LK401 (1) LK201 > TZ86 tape drive > Carton of misc DEC Docs+manuals > Carton of (mostly) DEC branded cables > (4) DEC cdrom+tape drives > External DEC RRD42 > > > ......... no shipping! > > -nick 0 > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 14:21:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E02B0C4D8@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITADEI wrote: > How about this one... > Build it myself, so I know for sure only ONE exists of it on the globe. > > See: http://www.siconic.com/crap/henk/ I've seen it in person. It's a real thing of beauty! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 14:24:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Foam pads for keytronics keyboards ? (& SOL-20 with Helios for sale) In-Reply-To: <200408052031.i75KVEVe002974@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Barry Watzman wrote: > You can buy a new PC (cordless) keyboard for what it will cost you to rework > a SOL keyboard (or any other Keytronic keyboard using these pads), but as > far as I know it's the only source. HE SAYS THAT WHEN THE CURRENT SUPPLY IS > GONE, THERE WILL BE NO MORE, ****EVER****. AND HE SAYS THAT IT'S ALMOST > GONE. I'm sure they are fairly easy to manufacture at home, so I'm not concerned. I've also got a big bag of them for my own restoration projects. And Keytronic keyboards are a dime a dozen (around here at least). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 8 14:27:08 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <16657.23101.882505.249290@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1091649431.3810.21.camel@dhcp-248209> <16657.23101.882505.249290@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1091993227.4237.204.camel@fiche> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 14:50, Paul Koning wrote: > Either would serve. But a software mechanism would be really unlikely > in practice without something resembling a real OS, with an interrupt > mechanism or some other way to do things periodically (as on the CDC > 6000 series). I agree with you generally, but disagree only in that an "OS" is hardly needed to take advantages of hardware facilities and side effects (in fact you're better off without one, they usually get in the way of "fun" :-) > As far as I can tell, the 650 had no such thing -- your application > was the only thing running. In theory you could keeep track of time > even though your code lives on a drum -- but in reality, how likely is > an application programmer, especially a business data processing > programmer, to want to deal with that kind of esoterica? Agreed. I think it extremely unlikely that in a 650 an ordinary program would jump through the hoops necessary to extract a timebase from this particular machine. It's possible, however unlikely, that there's a manufacturers test port that counts drum revolutions or somesuch rot, but in hardware of that vintage there tends to NOT be unexploited hardware, it was painful and expensive enough as it is! Short of a peripheral device in a catalog that provides clock-time or real-time data, the answer is likely "no", 650's can't tell correct time (any more than you could tell it to WRITE 100 H1,M1,S1 WRITE 110 D1,M1,Y1 100 FORMAT (I2,I2,I2) 110 FORMAT (I2,I2,I4) I couldn't remember the details of the FORMAT statement, and none of my books are new enough to have alphanumeric formats in them!) From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 8 14:28:54 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <000601c47a6e$b5f3edf0$7966a8c0@wrickben02> References: <410E7C27.5010404@execpc.com> <1091648902.3810.17.camel@dhcp-248209> <000601c47a6e$b5f3edf0$7966a8c0@wrickben02> Message-ID: <1091993331.4237.206.camel@fiche> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 15:02, Rick Bensene wrote: > The 8-Track Wang cartridges were not used (to my knowledge) on computers, > but on > the Wang 380 Programmer for the Wang 300-Series electronic calculators. Thanks for the info! If the cartridges are of any interest I'll keep my eyes open for them. From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 8 14:34:03 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091993642.4237.210.camel@fiche> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 16:19, Tony Duell wrote: > Surely I am not the only person who not only keeps every databook I've > ever owned, but also buys old databooks (I think I have a pre-1970 > Motorola IC databook somewhere -- back then one book covered all ICs > ;-)). > > Databooks are _esssential_ if you want to understnad or repair the hardware! Absolutely, especially for chips, less so for transistors. In the past (> 10 yrs ago) I did pitch old databooks, a terrible mistake. BTW, I scanned some of the solid state stuff I have from the early 60's, available here http://wps.com/archives/solid-state-datasheets/index.html The 61 Moto cover is especially beautiful, if the data isn't so crucial. From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 8 14:41:26 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091994082.4237.214.camel@fiche> On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 21:58, David V. Corbin wrote: > 2) At the original post of 300 Baud [30 or 27.2 cps] the mechanisim WOULD > fly apear, but make a cool animated video! Actually, it would run as it normally would, decoding poorly sampled bits and printing garbage -- at whatever speed it was geared for. > Wondering what a TTY [really 110 baud] would look like if the video was sped > up to run at a "modern" speed... Actually, slowing it down so you could see the data decode off the rotary-UART-thingie, translate across the front of the machine and position the typebox would be fun to see... > Wondering if I have had just WAY too much cafine and need to go > crash.... !! Is there such a thing as too much caffeine?! (aka programming fluid) From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 8 14:52:17 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: SAGE as vaporware In-Reply-To: <16659.36347.660000.901368@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1091738499.3840.72.camel@dhcp-248209> <16659.36347.660000.901368@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1091994734.4237.216.camel@fiche> On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 06:56, Paul Koning wrote: > Tom> http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/e2a.html > It would be a much better article if it contained references > supporting the claims, rather than just assertions without any backup. Oh don't think I don't agree with you... :-) From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Aug 8 15:37:11 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040807222046.008bd4f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040808153707.03140080@192.168.0.1> At 02:21 AM 8/8/2004, you wrote: >If you go around acting the ass >when you've already been bitch slapped, LOL - thinking of someone attempting to bitch slap Mike Tyson or any pro fighter or soldier. They're used to being hit --- and responding. More correct term for what happened is "sucker punched" which can happen to anyone. It's not sensible to ascribe personal motives to that of nation states either. Their rulers (depot or democrat) got there by strict pragmatism not emotionalism. (They certainly use emotions but strictly as a tool). We, as individuals, might want to punch out some arrogant loud mouth bully, but for dictators with dreams of hegemony that's not a good enough reason. They'll do so only for a profitable reason, not to satisfy some emotion. The reason for them to do so (as they're doing) is that it's hard to fool their people into thinking they live in a "worker's paradise" (or paradise of any sort) when the USA [substitute your country here] is there as an alternative. To bring this back (or closer anyway) to being on-topic: 1) I don't think most people on this list could be "bitch slapped" by a problem - whipped into submission. They'll keep coming back and back and back till they whip the problem into submission. 2) Could the activities this list promotes (classic computing) exist in a place where people's work is owed to the state. I think the conversation would go something like this, "Why [insert euphemistic description] are you wasting time on this IBM 5100 nonsense when you could be [insert state supported activity here]". You implied that America's arrogance was the cause of the problem. I don't think that's the root cause. This list (and the personal freedom it describes) is a much greater threat to a dictator then a country that whips the snot out of someone who attempts to "bitch slap" them. Though I guess it would be better if the USA wasn't so [insert list of perjorative terms here] and were more humble. :-) Ed Kelleher From classiccmp at eco.li Sun Aug 8 15:45:12 2004 From: classiccmp at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel In-Reply-To: <26c11a6404080710412d5fd09b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040806203023.04d297d8@mail.30below.com> <200408071631.MAA26511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <26c11a6404080710412d5fd09b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040808204512.GB19404@hades.eco.li> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 06:41:40PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > Any plans for VCF UK ? VCF UK would be an excellent idea! :) Is there another VCF Europe being planned at all? Dan -- If you can't be good, be careful. If you can't be careful, give me a call. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 15:52:38 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <26c11a6404080710412d5fd09b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Dan Williams wrote: > Any plans for VCF UK ? Eventually. I was speaking with some folks at Bletchly Park a few years ago but that never went anywhere. Perhaps we can try again? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 15:53:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL In-Reply-To: <000001c47ce2$2245f640$0200a8c0@desky> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ryan Clifford wrote: > I read in a post somewhere that you still have the DDIAL software and > modems? Is this true And if so would you be willing to part with it? Hi Ryan. I have the software if you're interested in a copy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 15:47:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Power Supply Repair In-Reply-To: <002a01c47cc9$af227c00$7a00a8c0@themillers> from "nick@computer-history.org" at Aug 7, 4 04:58:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > > Does anyone out there have any words of wisdom for someone looking into = > repairing an Apple Lisa power supply? I have 3 power supplies, 2x 1.2A = I have never sorked on a Lisa (if someone wants to donate one....), but I would start out by regardign them as normal SMPSUs and faultfinding accordingly. > and 1x 1.8A, and each has its own set of issues. One is just plain = > dead, the safety switch engages OK but nothing powers up. Another one, = Check the internal fuse. If blown, look for shorts in the rectifier diodes or chopper. Check low value resistors in this area too, which may well act as fuses!. See if you can find a startup resistor (a few hundred k from the +ve end of the mains smoothing cap to some point in the chopper circuit). It may well be open. > the 1.8A unit, pops the GFI on the circuit as soon as it is plugged in. = Something before the power control 'switch' (is this a relay or a triac, or something?). Maybe a leaking capacitor in the mains filter circuit or something like that? > The third one makes a chirping sound when the power switch is pressed. = > The chirping continues as long as the switch is pressed. The PS that = A short circuit on the output side? Maybe a shorted rectifier or a leaking output-side capacitor. Or maybe the current sense circuit is malfuncitoning and detecting an overload when there isn't one. But don't be tempted to disable it!. Or maybe the crowbar is trippinf and shutting the supply down due to a problem in the voltage regulation loop. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 15:34:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 6, 4 10:20:57 am Message-ID: > > But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the > > nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique > > floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's > > leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an > > archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. > > It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info > > such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be > > able to store the label along with the archived disk image. > > This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called TeleDisk, As far as I know the format of a Teledisk archive file has never been officially documented. IMHO that makes it totally unsuitable to use as a portable archibe format. And I don't think it covers things like GCR recording, sectors with headers recorded at a different density to the data, hard sectored disks, and so on. > also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be found > everywhere on the net. Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 15:42:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <200408061703.i76H31xX025870@mail.bcpl.net> from "J. David Bryan" at Aug 6, 4 01:02:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Aug 2004 at 5:18, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Anyway, there's a little extra circuitry (transistor, a few passives) > > to provided a simple amplitude envelope. Not just a sudden start/stop > > beep, but one that tails away. > > > > No real benefit from having this, but that _was_ HP for you. > > Indeed, the same thing was done in the HP 64000 workstations. They used a > 555 timer for the tone generator, a one-shot for the gate, but then added a Neat... Talking of HP using 555 timers, they used one to drive the power-on light in the HP86 (and I assuem the HP97). The reset input goes to an output on the memory cotnroller chip (which is asserted if there's a self-test error), the LED (and series resistor of course) goes between the output of the 555 and the +6V rail. So the LED is dark if the machine is off, on steadily if the machine is on and no error (555 is held reset, so the output is low all the time), and blinks (controlled by the 555) if there's an error. IIRC the battery level circuitry in the 9114A and 9114B disk drives does something similar, with one of the LEDs driven by a 555. In this case the timing capacitor of the 555 is switched by the battery voltage detector so the LED either flashses too fast to see (and appears to be on all the time) or blinks visibly. > transistor and an R-C circuit to provide a fast attack, slow decay > envelope, resulting in a characteristic "Bink!" sound. That's what the 9830 circuit does too. I can't easily reproduce the schematic in ascii-art, and I don't have a scanner, but if anyone is seriously interested I will see what can be done. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 16:10:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040808153707.03140080@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 02:21 AM 8/8/2004, you wrote: > >If you go around acting the ass > >when you've already been bitch slapped, > > LOL - thinking of someone attempting to bitch slap Mike Tyson or any pro > fighter or soldier. > They're used to being hit --- and responding. > More correct term for what happened is "sucker punched" which can happen to > anyone. My politics dictates it was a bitch slap. And Mike Tyson just got bitch slapped the other day. Check into it. There is no such thing as a "sucker punch" in international politics. It's called bad intelligence and lax defenses. Calling it a sucker punch is an attempt to avoid the hard answers (i.e. denial). > 1) I don't think most people on this list could be "bitch slapped" by a > problem - whipped into submission. They'll keep coming back and back and > back till they whip the problem into submission. Hopefully we are capable of learning from our past. > 2) Could the activities this list promotes (classic computing) exist in a > place where people's work is owed to the state. > I think the conversation would go something like this, "Why [insert > euphemistic description] are you wasting time on this IBM 5100 nonsense > when you could be [insert state supported activity here]". You're trying to argue that people cannot collect computers in a dictatorship? Bizarre. > You implied that America's arrogance was the cause of the problem. > I don't think that's the root cause. This list (and the personal freedom > it describes) is a much greater threat to a dictator then a country that > whips the snot out of someone who attempts to "bitch slap" them. That sounds like something a Fox News devotee would say. > Though I guess it would be better if the USA wasn't so [insert list of > perjorative terms here] and were more humble. Now you're on the right track! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 16:10:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: VCF West hotel In-Reply-To: <20040808204512.GB19404@hades.eco.li> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Dan Kolb wrote: > On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 06:41:40PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > Any plans for VCF UK ? > > VCF UK would be an excellent idea! :) Is there another VCF Europe being > planned at all? Every year. Like clockwork. The next one is April 30-May 1 in Munich. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 8 16:15:54 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Up for auction: Lynx 470 floppy tester References: <200408081112520636.74A5F5ED@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <064c01c47d8c$e439c060$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3832624634 ) Whoops, looks like your server (the photo host) is down. John A. From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 8 16:16:35 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation (Mike Ross) References: Message-ID: <065701c47d8c$fcd00080$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > the McMasterUniv/KevinStumpf PDP-15 several years ago. How is Kevin.S lately? I got the impression that he was one of the older collectors looking to get out of the hobby, or at least lower the collection by an order of magnitude. I bought from him a sys/370-168 control panel. The guy was definitely into big stuff. BTW to the newbies, he wrote a good collectors instruction book. "A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique" by Kevin Stumpf, 1998 John A. From donm at cts.com Sun Aug 8 16:11:01 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Tapes for the 9010 In-Reply-To: <20040802235833.70120.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Gary Benton wrote: > I just read a message of yours from two years ago > (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-August/001261.html) and > am wondering if you are still looking for tapes for the Fluke 9010. I may > have some. Thanks for your offer, Gary, but I do not own the unit any more. - don From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 8 17:24:54 2004 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: MITS Teletype Interface Board References: <41125248.16308.6AF4403D@localhost> Message-ID: <4116A835.E0185E6E@cs.ubc.ca> I was shuffling through some papers last night and stopped for a moment to read the two copies of "Altair Notes" from 1975/76 in my possession. (Altair Notes was a newsletter for Altair owners. They're rather amusing as they have articles written by Bill Gates and Paul Allen from the period when (if I have it correctly) they were working for MITS.) (Also ran across an article I cut out of Technology Illustrated (Sep 1983) years ago about the inception of the Boston Computer Museum. I sure hope they weren't butchering their artifacts to add the christmas tree lights mentioned in another thread.) In one of these Altair Notes is a small blurb and picture of a new product from MITS. For what it is worth (which isn't much, considering how little it says about what the board actually does) below is the text. The picture matches your (Brian's) picture, but the mentioned "parts layout" is not present. I'll speculate the "$500.00 savings" mentioned is in relation to a more expensive option from Teletype providing the equivalent/desired functionality. (excerpt from Altair Notes / March 1976): ------------------------------------- New Products Teletype Call-Control Kit The MITS Teletype Call-Control Kit provides a much lower cost and faster way to get a teletype into your system than was previously possible. MITS has made an agreement with Teletype whereby the fully assembled mechanical portion of the Teletype will be shipped directly to you from Teletype Corp. and the PC board Call-Control Kit will be shipped from MITS. Starting in May, delivery time should be a couple of weeks as opposed to 4 to 5 months. There are three Call-Control Kits available: 88-TYR which is supplied with the Teletype printer only, 88-TYK which is supplied with Teletype Model KSR-33 (printer and keyboard), and 88-TYA which is supplied with Teletype Model ASR-33 (printer, keyboard, paper tape punch and reader). All three kits use the same basic printed circuit board (see parts layout, this page). All you need to do is assemble as much of the PC board as applies to the model of Teletype you have purchased, mount it to the Teletype chassis, and plug it in. The PC board for the 88-TYR (printer) kit has a power switch, two fuses, a simple power supply and the receive circuit for 20mA current loop. Interconnect plugs and mounting hardware are also provided. For the 88-TYK kit, a relay for line-local switching, a connector to the keyboard, and some transient damping circuitry are added. For the 88-TYA kit, all of the above is included with the addition of another simple power supply, connections for the paper tape reader, and a circuit to control the reader by program control. That's all there is to it. The most complicated part of the assembly is connecting wires from the line-local relay to the PC-board. The 88-TYA kit should take only 3 to 5 hours to complete. At $500.00 savings, that's $100.00 an hour for your time. ------------------------------------- Brian Knittel wrote: > > Hi, > > For those of you who asked to see the MITS > Teletype Interface board I mentioned a couple > of days ago, I've put a picture at > http://www.ibm1130.org/misc/mits-tty-interface.jpg > > The molex connector at the bottom left below the relay > is where the data cable connects. The other end is > a DB25 connector, and the wires go to pins 2-6. Since > there is no connection to pin 7 (signal ground) it must > be current loop. > > Brian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 8 17:30:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Searching for SunOS 4.1.3 In-Reply-To: <00c401c47b41$95cb5d00$6901a8c0@tillc400a> References: <00c401c47b41$95cb5d00$6901a8c0@tillc400a> Message-ID: <200408082231.SAA16976@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > An acquaintance referred me to this group because he thought someone > here could help me out. > I am looking for a copy of SunOS 4.1.3, preferably version C. > Can anyone assist me in finding a copy for purchase? I have an old > Sparc with a program titled SNAP that was written for this particular > version of SunOS, but I do not have this version...only Solaris 2.0 > and SNAP will not run on it. Might I suggest NetBSD? Its SunOS binary compatability is pretty good, quite possibly good enough to keep SNAP happy.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Aug 8 18:04:00 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel)" (Aug 8, 13:52) References: Message-ID: <10408090003.ZM11458@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 8, 13:52, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Dan Williams wrote: > > > Any plans for VCF UK ? > > Eventually. I was speaking with some folks at Bletchly Park a few years > ago but that never went anywhere. > > Perhaps we can try again? I'd be willing to help. I once investigated using facilities at the University, but they charge an awful lot. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Aug 8 15:36:54 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Does anyone collect old Modems? References: <006501c47ced$f0beb560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <024701c47da0$a4437460$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> we collect them, but have yet to assemble a large display on the evolution.... \Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Does anyone collect old Modems? > >Old modems > > are things like the Plessey (badged GPO or BT) Modem 2B (all discrete > > transsitors, pot-cores in the filters, does 300 buard), or the 13A (A > > 300 baud modem in a plinth that fits under a Telephone 746). Actually, > > those might be too modern for some people :-) > > What about the old light blue metal boxes labled "Gandalf"? > > Jay > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Aug 8 18:56:30 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: Holy cow... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040806165835.0095a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040806190218.0091ed90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4116BDAE.8020107@mdrconsult.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Needless to say, I have a very low tolerance for this kind of BS. I didn't > use any of the film (I ended up replacing it), but just for kicks I sent one > roll to be developed. Rather predictably, it was completely fogged. > Some of these people would probably fare better in a field that requires less > use of their obviously overstressed brains... maybe street-sweeping? A couple of months before 9/11 I checked into Miami Int'l with my pocket-knife in my pocket. In the US at the time, a blade under 3" was acceptable. I had my Gerber lockblade which is a 2.25" blade, but still comes in under 3" if the heel of the blade is measured. The young lady at the security gate opened the knife, measured it accross her tiny palm, and told me she'd be keeping it. I politely objected, she politely showed me that the blade was longer than her hand was wide, and informed me that that proved it was too long. I asked her to measure it properly and was told it was unnecessary. I politely told her that I would be standing there until she found a ruler or I was arrested. A couple of minutes later, a Very Large Security Lady appeared and politely asked me if there was a problem. I told her "This person wants to confiscate my knife and I'm certain it's under 3 inches." She asked the guard for the knife, opened it, laughed, and said "look here", and held it up against her huge palm." That little guard just held up her open hand. The big one blinked, said "Oh. We'll get you a ruler." thanked me for my patience, and handed me my knife. Doc From mross666 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 8 19:33:48 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: System/32 update... Message-ID: Sellam was kind enough to connect me with a System/32 donor a few months ago; finally got around to a couple of webpages. The machine: http://www.corestore.org/32-2.htm The troubleshooting: http://www.corestore.org/32restore.htm Thanks Sellam! Now if you find me a 360.... :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Aug 8 19:29:08 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: OT: HVD SCSI card Message-ID: <10408090129.ZM11586@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I need an Adaptec AHA2944 (any version) HVD SCSI card for an old SGI (but not 10 years old so no strictly classic). Anybody have one they'd sell for a modest amount, or trade for an AHA2940 (LVD/SE)? I'm also looking for an HVD to LVD (or SE) adapter (usually called a SCSI extender). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 8 19:58:53 2004 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:00 2005 Subject: going...going... In-Reply-To: <1091984102.6049.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> References: <1091984102.6049.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4116CC4D.6010504@internet1.net> Please remind us where you are located. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I have a Sun Sparc Server 490 that I posted as being available on the > list for pickup (ie *free*) some time ago. Someone had previously > wanted it but they seemed to have fallen off the face of the Earth. > > So, if someone doesn't claim this (and take it) it's going to the > scrapper. > > Speak up now or don't bitch when it gets melted down! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 8 20:25:42 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: RAREST COMPUTERS.... (Computer Automation) References: <41113F90.8040602@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: <4116D296.F6671492@msm.umr.edu> Computer Automation seems to be rare. I have only seen one of their smart printer interface modules mis identified as a Logic analyzer probe on ebay at all. I do have access to someone with a stash here in OC. CA got big on an automated test system they sold to a lot of companies around here, including Microdata back in the early days. Later cloned or duplicated by HP on the HP-3000. ROBERT LAAG wrote: > ANY THOUGHTS ON HOW RARE THE COMPUTER AUTOMATION MINI COMPUTERS MIGHT BE NOW??? > SOMEONE TOLD ME OF A GUY UP IN THE SEATTLE AREA WITH SOME TOO... From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 8 20:29:45 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon -- (WOW*RARE*L@@K BOXED!!!11) References: <200408051729.KAA29453@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4116D389.A8518038@msm.umr.edu> how many beige cased ones do you want? They can be made available. I have one wood and more than one beige cased ones. All of the metal cased ones were double density new factory versions. I never saw an ad for any in any media for other than the wood cased one. Jim From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 20:32:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: System/32 update... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Mike Ross wrote: > Sellam was kind enough to connect me with a System/32 donor a few months > ago; finally got around to a couple of webpages. > > The machine: http://www.corestore.org/32-2.htm > > The troubleshooting: http://www.corestore.org/32restore.htm Nice! > Thanks Sellam! Now if you find me a 360.... :-) Eventually... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 8 20:39:13 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 References: <49AB2D6A-E8F3-11D8-A59B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4116D5C1.C8D651B0@msm.umr.edu> the APL / Basic version as well as the ones I have with options require a power cycle to switch operating modes. There would be no way to retain any data in the unit. the "serial" port probably was a bisync port which would require reading a dataset or stream from the mainframe and storing or digesting it. you could read records from files you opened, and though i do not have a unit with such a port I suspect it is opened and just returns data records as one would ship them from the mainframe. Only problem to be said for this is problem with timing and so forth in such protocols as 2780, which would be probably about all that would have been around. the interface would go DTR when you brought up the device, such as the 5100, and then you would have to read data from the mainframe in a hell of a hurry, or fault the outbound datastream from the mainframe. All which ignores, would this be dialup, or hardwired direct, as I imagine that DC Hayes was in high school when this would have been going on... at least there was no integrated way to make the connection. Also may predate such devices as 3270's so there would have been no way to run in that environment either. I have a system with 8" floppies on it, and it runs like a system with cards attached. you can read write, overwite and delete images which were up to a track long. so each floppy was a small "deck" as far as a program was concerned. Jim From aek at spies.com Sun Aug 8 20:51:12 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: System/32 update... Message-ID: <20040809015112.0A1A83C77@spies.com> > Thanks Sellam! Now if you find me a 360.... :-) how about a Univac 90 30 ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 8 21:16:18 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I read in a post somewhere that you still have the DDIAL software and > > modems? Is this true And if so would you be willing to part with it? > > Hi Ryan. > > I have the software if you're interested in a copy. > Do you happen to have it ask disk images? tnx. g. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sun Aug 8 21:15:49 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: How common are the IBM System/*'s? (was System/32 update...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Mike Ross wrote: > > Sellam was kind enough to connect me with a System/32 donor a few months > > ago; finally got around to a couple of webpages. > > The machine: http://www.corestore.org/32-2.htm > > The troubleshooting: http://www.corestore.org/32restore.htm Subject kinda says it all. I drove a couple hundred miles to retrieve an IBM System/34 that had been used for medical billing purposes, and I'm kinda curious how rare these machines are. Are they at all? The machine I picked up is complete, was working when shut off (In 1991), has about 30 of the ten 8" floppy disk jukebox cartridges, about 450 floppies to go with, spare cards, matching modems and a box of documentation that almost put my back out. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the TwinAx terminals that go with it - and I don't have any space to start playing with it. Thanks JP From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 21:26:55 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Looking for Visual 1050 technical docs Message-ID: <20040809022655.9949.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> I have the "standard" docs that ship with this system, but am trying to locate copies of the "programmer's technical guide" and the "maintainence/service manual" for this system (these names might be approximated, but something along those lines). Please drop me a line if you might be able to help. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 8 21:51:37 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable In-Reply-To: <20040808120654.P42272@shell.lmi.net> References: <4110573D.6000905@chard.net> <20040808120654.P42272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040808194555.G47167@shell.lmi.net> > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Blair Miller wrote: > > Hey all, > > The subject says it all: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113549953 > > starting price is kinda high ($50) > Although he says that it works, but that he doesn't know > what ports it has, if you go to the picture of the expansion > you'll see Compaq CGA, Compaq parallel, non-Compaq parallel > (Compaq uses different hold down screw, but permits 5150 style) > and a non-Compaq serial port (probably 8250) rattling around, > not plugged in at all! OTOH, the non-Compaq parallel card could be a multi-function card, and the unmounted serial port could simply be a cable off of it, in which case the improper mounting is less serious. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 8 22:12:40 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: DOS looking like a mainframe project Message-ID: Ok, Here's another pet project of mine.. I Have a simple DOS6.22 installed in one of my laptops, and I want to make it look like as much like an IBM (it's an IBM laptop too btw) mainframe as possible. I am working on a vauge memory from a job over 10 years ago when I had an account on the R&D little mainframe. I think the machine was an early AS400, It filled 3 Equipment Racks. This was about the time of the Loma-Preata Earthquake (for non california readers, I forget the year but both San Francisco and Oakland, and San Jose were all effected by it, and that was the one where the freeway collapsed and many of the buildings in SF's Marina District suffered from liquifacation) I think it ran somthing like VM/OS, anyway it had Xedit for a system editor and I have "the heisling editor" which is very much like xedit. Can any one capture screens from a Mainframe like this? I'd love to see them.. Esp. the login screen, A directory/datset screen (where in you put an X near a file and hit enter to edit the file.) and any other sorts of menu screens. Thanks. From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Aug 8 22:31:19 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:34:24 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the > > > nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique > > > floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's > > > leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an > > > archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. > > > It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info > > > such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be > > > able to store the label along with the archived disk image. > > > > This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called > > TeleDisk, > > As far as I know the format of a Teledisk archive file has never been > officially documented. IMHO that makes it totally unsuitable to use as > a portable archibe format. And I don't think it covers things like GCR > > recording, sectors with headers recorded at a different density to the > > data, hard sectored disks, and so on. > > > also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be > > found everywhere on the net. > > Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC. > Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in the shop you can use for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for some high-and-holy reason. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 23:37:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: System/32 update... In-Reply-To: <20040809015112.0A1A83C77@spies.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > > Thanks Sellam! Now if you find me a 360.... :-) > > how about a Univac 90 30 ? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 Mmmmm. Nice. I hope someone in the UK can grab this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 23:38:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > I read in a post somewhere that you still have the DDIAL software and > > > modems? Is this true And if so would you be willing to part with it? > > > > Hi Ryan. > > > > I have the software if you're interested in a copy. > > > Do you happen to have it ask disk images? I can make it so. I've gotten a previous request for the disks already. Now there's Ryan and you. I'm surprised it comes up so often. Anyway, I'll try to get around to making disk images in another 3-4 weeks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 23:39:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: How common are the IBM System/*'s? (was System/32 update...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, JP Hindin wrote: > The machine I picked up is complete, was working when shut off (In > 1991), has about 30 of the ten 8" floppy disk jukebox cartridges, about > 450 floppies to go with, spare cards, matching modems and a box of > documentation that almost put my back out. Unfortunately, I don't have > any of the TwinAx terminals that go with it - and I don't have any space > to start playing with it. I'll remember you the next time I come across one of these terminals. The System/34 is not terribly rare, but then they don't pop up everyday. Still, there are plenty in operation out there I'm sure. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 8 23:45:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:34:24 +0100 (BST) > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the > > > > nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique > > > > floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's > > > > leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an > > > > archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error. > > > > It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info > > > > such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be > > > > able to store the label along with the archived disk image. > > > > > > This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called > > > TeleDisk, > > > > As far as I know the format of a Teledisk archive file has never been > > officially documented. IMHO that makes it totally unsuitable to use as > > a portable archibe format. And I don't think it covers things like GCR > > > > recording, sectors with headers recorded at a different density to the > > > > data, hard sectored disks, and so on. > > > > > also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be > > > found everywhere on the net. > > > > Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC. > > > > Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various > equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an > MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in the shop you can use > for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS > or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely > anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day > and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like > that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for > some high-and-holy reason. Tony's point is very well taken, and you seem to have missed it, and substituted something else that Tony did not even imply. First of all, a pure DOS computer is a VERY handy tool to have around. At least it is for me. There's a lot you can do with a simple DOS box and some good tools (like ProComm for example). But to use Teledisk as the de facto standard for archiving floppy disks would be an awful mistake, not the least of which is because Teledisk, as Tony rightly pointed out, does not deal at all with GCR disk formats. Any format that is going to be adopted as the de facto standard for archiving disks (and other media) must be able to handle ANY format, and must also be OPEN, DOCUMENTED, and most importantly, NON-PROPRIETARY. I think this is pretty much what Tony said. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Aug 9 00:02:35 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. In-Reply-To: <16658.53391.574000.876662@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000001c47dce$16362a40$4d4d2c0a@atx> > PS. It is certainly true that programs can be proven to match their > specification. That's not quite the same as proving them bug free -- > it now requires the specification to be bug free. > > But such proofs in no way require the absence of a stack. That's > actually rather obvious, because any program that uses a stack can be > rewritten into a program that does not use one. But in fact such a > rewrite does not help readability at all. > > It probably is not a coincidence that the scientist who did much early > work on stacks is also the scientist who spent a lifetime working on > program correctness (E.W.Dijkstra). > However (!) if stacks are used on real (rather than theoretical) hardware then (limited) space must be allocated for them. It can be difficult to prove that the maximum depth is never exceeded. In a recursive situation it may even be impossible to prove this as Ackerman's fuction can easily demonstrate. Andy From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 9 00:16:32 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040809010841.00ae10f8@mail.30below.com> Just for grins, I went to google & typed in "greenbar paper" - and the 3rd or 4th link was this: http://www.business-supply.com/dept/2005280/sparco-1-2-green-bar-computer-paper.html They have 18 & 20 lb. greenbar paper, 8.5" and 11" deep, narrow & widecarriage (in each) and they even carry carbonless 2-part! Prices range from $33/carton to $90/carton. Dunno if the prices are any good or not, but I did notice their "over $25 order gets free shipping" banner prominently displayed - I'm sure shipping this schtuff ain't cheap, so it might be a decent deal... Me? Don't need it... even all my dot-matrix printers had cut-sheet feeders on 'em... ;-) =-=-=-=-= That said, what I *have* been looking for (and google turned up nothing the last 3 times I checked) is a set of: Greenbar Bedsheets. I'd doubt they're still made, and it seems they weren't that popular when they were, as they certainly didn't make a big mark on google or history, it seems. Ah well... one can dream, right? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 9 01:24:11 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: going...going... In-Reply-To: <4116CC4D.6010504@internet1.net> References: <1091984102.6049.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> <4116CC4D.6010504@internet1.net> Message-ID: <1092032650.9202.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-08-08 at 17:58, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Please remind us where you are located. > Sorry, I forget that sometimes. :-) I'm in San Jose, CA. My guess is that if someone wants to ship it, it would be somewhere in the range $300-500. I *am* willing to help with the logistics of shipping it if someone wants it. > > I have a Sun Sparc Server 490 that I posted as being available on the > > list for pickup (ie *free*) some time ago. Someone had previously > > wanted it but they seemed to have fallen off the face of the Earth. > > > > So, if someone doesn't claim this (and take it) it's going to the > > scrapper. > > > > Speak up now or don't bitch when it gets melted down! -- TTFN - Guy From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Aug 9 04:29:02 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Univac on eBay - was RE: System/32 update... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c47df3$4f0a0c40$4d4d2c0a@atx> > how about a Univac 90 30 ? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 > Mmmmm. Nice. I hope someone in the UK can grab this. I asked the vendor about manuals and tapes: >>>>> You asked: "Two of the most important things about trying to preserve antique computers are the manuals and the operating system distribution tapes. If these have not been thrown away (as happens all to often!) please do not do so! Are they included in this lot and, if not, is it intended to either give them to a computer museum or to sell them? Andy" We have cupboards full of documentation and magnetic tape. What is on them I have no ides, but I will throw it all in. Regards, Nick <<<<< This is too big for me to take on, but I hope a collector rather than a scrapper will buy it. Andy From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Aug 9 04:41:19 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) Message-ID: <200408090941.i799fJHj008653@queen.cs.drexel.edu> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Talking of HP using 555 timers, they used one to drive the power-on light > in the HP86 (and I assuem the HP97). [...] (nitpicking here, you are talking about the 87) > So the LED is dark if the machine is off, on steadily if the machine is > on and no error (555 is held reset, so the output is low all the time), > and blinks (controlled by the 555) if there's an error. Actually the LED blinks when the machine is busy (e.g. running a program). This is very neat as with the HP85 you sometimes do not know whether the program has finished or is still running. **vp From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 9 05:03:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Univac on eBay - was RE: System/32 update... In-Reply-To: <001501c47df3$4f0a0c40$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <001501c47df3$4f0a0c40$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <1092045814.7087.30.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-09 at 09:29, Andy Holt wrote: > > how about a Univac 90 30 ? > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 > > > Mmmmm. Nice. I hope someone in the UK can grab this. > > I asked the vendor about manuals and tapes: > > >>>>> > You asked: > "Two of the most important things about trying to preserve antique computers > are the manuals and the operating system distribution tapes. If these have > not been thrown away (as happens all to often!) please do not do so! Are > they included in this lot and, if not, is it intended to either give them to > a computer museum or to sell them? Andy" > > We have cupboards full of documentation and magnetic tape. What is on them I > have no ides, but I will throw it all in. Regards, Nick > <<<<< > > This is too big for me to take on, but I hope a collector rather than a > scrapper will buy it. It's possible I could house the docs and tapes at Bletchley if it comes to it, but that would be in very much less-than-ideal conditions. Plus the future of things is very much uncertain there at present. I know that both the Science Museum and Manchester are out of storage space though, so at least housing them at Bletchley would give it a stay of execution if landfill was the alternative. Actually, the whole machine would be nice, but we're not allowed any more room to display things as it is (despite all the empty buildings!) so all it could do is sit out of the public eye. Plus of course being a museum we're not in much of a position to actually spend money on anything :-( cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 9 06:23:42 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms Message-ID: <10408091223.ZM12115@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a TQK50 controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. Can anyone help? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Aug 9 06:46:46 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: <10408091223.ZM12115@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040809074413.02496cb0@192.168.0.1> At 07:23 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote: >I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a TQK50 >controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. Can anyone >help? > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Have 2 TQK50's K3 Rev with those ROM's on them I'm not using. Haven't fiddled with the EPROM machine for years, so no easy way to get the images. But I'll send you a board if nothing better turns up for you. Ed From emu at ecubics.com Mon Aug 9 08:30:20 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 Message-ID: <41177C6C.7050905@ecubics.com> Hi, anybody out here has a datasheet for those ? Thanks From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Aug 9 09:08:14 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 References: <41177C6C.7050905@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <004f01c47e1a$519ab780$7dc3033e@gamemachine> what are they ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:30 PM Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 > Hi, > anybody out here has a datasheet for those ? > > Thanks > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 07/08/2004 From cb at mythtech.net Mon Aug 9 09:37:09 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Bludgeoned to death with an iPod? (was Re: Holy cow... Concealed weapons) Message-ID: >> You're more likely to be hurt by a PC or an iPod (woman in Tennessee >> killed her boyfriend with an iPod) >> http://www.liquidgeneration.com/rumormill/ipod_killing.html > >"Police said no motive has been confirmed, although evidence suggested >the murder was the result of a domestic dispute after Pulaski erased the >contents of Mathers' iPod." > >That is the funniest damn thing I have heard all week. > >"According to law officers, Mathers was hysterical when police arrived >and told them that she killed her boyfriend only after he accused her of >illegally downloading music and erased about 2,000 of her MP3s. Mathers >complained that it took 3 months to build her music collection." > >Innocent. I'd a done the same damn thing. Cripes... I want to know if the iPod still works! That would be a durability test no one else could lay claim to. "You can bash in your boyfriend's head, and continue listening to your MP3's, all without missing a beat" -chris From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 9 09:51:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Hardware/doc preservatoion, was Re: rarest computers. References: <411081E8.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> <16658.52548.468000.600186@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16663.36716.132000.696182@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Steven" == Steven N Hirsch writes: Steven> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Steven" == Steven N Hirsch writes: >> Steven> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: >> >> PS. Years ago in BYTE ( early 1990's? ) they had spoke up of a >> CPU >> designed for reliable operation for real time control of >> things >> like power plants or subways or aircraft. They claimed >> it was so >> simple that programs could be proven to be bug >> free. I was >> wondering if they manufactured or sold any the >> devices. >> Steven> That would be the British "Viper" CPU. Computational theory Steven> suggests (proves, perhaps? - it's been a few years) that use Steven> of hardware or software stacks renders behavior Steven> indeterminate. >> Baloney. Anyone who has paid any attention to Dijkstra knows >> that such a statement would have to be complete and utter >> nonsense. Steven> I'm only going by what I recall from the Byte Steven> article. Let's not start a religous war, please? I wouldn't think of this as a religious war. You started by quoting an assertion that could be proven if it were true, and I pointed out that it cannot possible be true. It may be a mathematical war, but not a religious one. If Byte was accurate quoting an assertion from the company, it sounds like they have a nice crew of snake oil marketeers. paul From cb at mythtech.net Mon Aug 9 10:05:05 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Concealed weapons Message-ID: >South Carolina requires training and has a written test and a shooting test >that people must pass before receiving a concealed weapon permit. Most >other states have training requirements also. >But, none of them are very arduous and yes many states don' t have training >requirements at all as you say. In NJ to get a carry permit, you have to be 18, and you have to petition a judge to issue you the carry permit. Before they will consider you, you MUST "qualify" with a handgun. That basically means, you know how to load, unload, handle, and can hit the broad side of a barn. After that it is entirely up to the judge if you get the carry permit or not. Generally speaking, they won't give you the permit unless you have a really good reason for it (work as armed security, or have some profession such as a diamond dealer that would give you a valid reason for it). General shmucks would not be given the permit... unless you happen to be buddies with the judge. So in NJ, it isn't impossible to get a carry permit, but it isn't the easiest thing for a general citizen to get. At least that was the way it worked 10 years ago when it was last of issue to me (I used to work for a security company as a "rent-a-cop" to pay for college). -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 9 11:10:38 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: Holy cow... Concealed weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040809121038.0091c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:05 AM 8/9/04 -0400, chris wrote: >>South Carolina requires training and has a written test and a shooting test >>that people must pass before receiving a concealed weapon permit. Most >>other states have training requirements also. >>But, none of them are very arduous and yes many states don' t have training >>requirements at all as you say. > >In NJ to get a carry permit, you have to be 18, and you have to petition >a judge to issue you the carry permit. Before they will consider you, you >MUST "qualify" with a handgun. That basically means, you know how to >load, unload, handle, and can hit the broad side of a barn. After that it >is entirely up to the judge if you get the carry permit or not. Generally >speaking, they won't give you the permit unless you have a really good >reason for it (work as armed security, or have some profession such as a >diamond dealer that would give you a valid reason for it). General >shmucks would not be given the permit... unless you happen to be buddies >with the judge. > >So in NJ, it isn't impossible to get a carry permit, but it isn't the >easiest thing for a general citizen to get. > >At least that was the way it worked 10 years ago when it was last of >issue to me (I used to work for a security company as a "rent-a-cop" to >pay for college). That's the way it worked in most states up until the last 15 years or so. You had to be a buddy of the judges and then you got a permit weather you NEEDED one or not and weather or not you were compitent.* If you weren't a buddy of the judges you didn't get one no matter how bad your need. However a lot of states (at least here in the south) have now gone to a "shall issue" philosphy. That means that as long as you meet the training and background requirements, they MUST issue you a permit unless they can go to a judge and show a GOOD reason that you shouldn't have one. Generally speaking you must be able to show that you are a legal resident of the state, are mentally compitent, aren't a convicted (or under inditment) felony, that you aren't a habitual drug user or alcoholic, that you've had extensive (formal) training with firearms such as police or military service or a formal school, and you must study and be tested on the laws concerning when you are allowed to use your weapon and where and when you can carry it and when you can't. Then you must pass a local and state police and FBI background check. (I THINK that covers it). Since this change, the number of people with CWPs has gone from a few hundred to over 200,000 here in Florida. And Ed is right, people simply aren't being shot dead in the streets either accidently or intentionally. In fact, you've probably noticely in the last ten years or so how the criminals are now focusing on the tourists. That's because they know that if they take on a Florida citizen then there's a VERY good chance that they're going to shoot back! Now they've taken to following tourists out of the airports and robbing them once they're away from the airport. That's because they know that if they just got off a plane that they aren't armed and can't resist. * You would be surprised how many of the Hollywood and Washington DC liberals have a CWP and are armed. Even though they live in gated and guarded communities and are the ones that are crying to ban guns. Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 9 11:10:57 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 Message-ID: <200408091610.JAA02927@clulw009.amd.com> >From: charlesb@otcgaming.net >From: "emanuel stiebler" > > >> Hi, >> anybody out here has a datasheet for those ? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> > > Hi If I'm not correct, these are a 8 bit bus buffer. I think they are bidirectional but I'm not sure about that. They don't have the same pinout as a '245 but function the same. Dwight From wolfgang at eichberger.org Mon Aug 9 11:17:01 2004 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (wolfgang@eichberger.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: IBM and Siemens Terminals available... Message-ID: <200408091617.i79GH290009360@everymail-A16-C02.everymail.net> Dear friends of old IBM and Siemens Gear, I have a few IBM 3277 (at least 3) and Siemens (1 or 2) Terminals available. They are from around 1980. The units come complete with keyboards. I left my scribble-sheet in my office, so I can provide the correct Siemens model no. tomorrow. If you are interested please take a look at http://www.eichberger.org/tmp_term.html. The units are located in Linz/Austria. Please contact me personally for more Details. I know these units are not very expensive these days, but I'd like to have a few Euros (not really much) or another interesting Item in exchange for them if this is okay for you. I do not want to put them up in Ebay, so if you know someone off-list feel free to forward this message. Best Regards, Wolfgang Eichberger ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang@eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 9 12:18:20 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: RQZX1 setup? In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040802212509.01b03350@pop.starpower.net> References: <410CA467.8050907@mdrconsult.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040802212509.01b03350@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <4117B1DC.5010604@mdrconsult.com> Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I have the manual for the RQZX1, there are two ways to get the Resident > Firmware to boot: > > 1. From the ODT level; > > 2. The other way is select DU253 or MU253 as the boot device. This will > start the diagnostics from ROM. > > Once in the diagnostics you have to get the controller to > 'Autoconfigure' so it can see all your SCSI devices. Thanks, Doug! I had found a couple of pages of the manual and have been able to get into the firmware and configure the system **if and only if** a TZ30 tape drive is attached. Even if the controller is set to MSCP on both channels and an alternate second CSR address, I can't access the RFM either by the ODT method or the BOOT xU253 method, and can't boot from the SCSI disk. This isn't a showstopper, but it is terribly confusing. The person from whom I got the switch settings and RFM instructions runs a variety of tape devices on his RQZX1 with no problems. I can, by the way, install a second tape device and have that recognized. My board is silkscreened REV. E, and the resident firmware utility shows a firmware revision of v2.3 and hardware revision "L". Doc From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Aug 9 12:23:16 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project Message-ID: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > First of all, a pure DOS computer is a VERY handy tool to have around. MS-DOS is really a program loader, which is actually extremely important since PCs do not come with monitor program. SUNs come with the Forth boot ROM which is arguably far more useful than MSDOS, but not very popular. For this reason you won't see anything like MSDOS for SUNs. I have a VMware VM running MSDOS with network support and I use this to compile TurboC programs (for some reason the tcc linker does not run in a Windows 2000, or later DOS box, it does run on MS-DOS-based systems like Windows 95/98/ME). I also find the lack of any amount of resource management by MSDOS to be invaluable for writing programs that explore the behaviour of hardware systems (e.g. HP-IB devices). Of course, I wouldn't use such a system for any real work :-) I am amazed that people actually did so. **vp From emu at ecubics.com Mon Aug 9 12:28:23 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 In-Reply-To: <004f01c47e1a$519ab780$7dc3033e@gamemachine> References: <41177C6C.7050905@ecubics.com> <004f01c47e1a$519ab780$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: <4117B437.5000407@ecubics.com> charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > what are they ? Comparator/Latch of some kind ... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 9 12:23:07 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: Ed Kelleher "Re: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 9, 7:46) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040809074413.02496cb0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <10408091823.ZM12447@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 7:46, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 07:23 AM 8/9/2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a TQK50 > >controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. Can anyone > >help? > Have 2 TQK50's K3 Rev with those ROM's on them I'm not using. > Haven't fiddled with the EPROM machine for years, so no easy way to >get the images. > But I'll send you a board if nothing better turns up for you. If no-one else offers, that would be great. Thanks! Is there anyone out there who could read the (EP)ROMs to save Ed sending them across the Atlantic to me? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 12:37:27 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable References: <4110573D.6000905@chard.net> <20040808120654.P42272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I bought one at Salvation Army for $10. They thought it was a sewing machine :) Works great, comes with 20GB MFM hard drive. A bit non-stock, but still cool. I'm going to see if Minix will run on it, with an Etherlink I network card :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 3:12 PM Subject: Re: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable > > starting price is kinda high ($50) > Although he says that it works, but that he doesn't know > what ports it has, if you go to the picture of the expansion > you'll see Compaq CGA, Compaq parallel, non-Compaq parallel > (Compaq uses different hold down screw, but permits 5150 style) > and a non-Compaq serial port (probably 8250) rattling around, > not plugged in at all! > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 9 12:40:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > Of course, I wouldn't use such a system for any real work :-) I am amazed > that people actually did so. Well, I think the fact that you could use it for real work should say something. Sure, it was crap, but then along came Windows and it made DOS look good. In fact, I'm convinced that Windows was a ploy by Microsoft to get everyone to be more fond of DOS and increase its sales. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 9 12:51:53 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 Message-ID: <20040809175153.6D2F33C6B@spies.com> they are 6 bit comparitors often used as address comparitors on early unibus boards. I'm sure there is an example of their use on early unibus board schematics i'll see about digging up the data sheet. from memory it's an xor/nand combination. From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 9 12:57:22 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 Message-ID: <20040809175722.153743CC8@spies.com> page 28 of www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP00706-ET-LSI-11_Dec81.pdf shows their use on the original DLV-11 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 9 12:55:34 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136" (Aug 9, 9:10) References: <200408091610.JAA02927@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10408091855.ZM12468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 9:10, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > From: "emanuel stiebler" > > Hi, > > anybody out here has a datasheet for those ? > If I'm not correct, these are a 8 bit bus buffer. I'm 99% sure you're not correct. They're 6-bit bus comparators. DM8136 is the Signetics part number, and DS8136 is the NatSemi one; alas I have data for neither. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 13:27:24 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Aug 9, 4 10:40:23 am" Message-ID: <200408091827.LAA17292@floodgap.com> > > Of course, I wouldn't use such a system for any real work :-) I am amazed > > that people actually did so. > > Well, I think the fact that you could use it for real work should say > something. Sure, it was crap, but then along came Windows and it made DOS > look good. In fact, I'm convinced that Windows was a ploy by Microsoft to > get everyone to be more fond of DOS and increase its sales. It's working. ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The point of good writing is knowing when to stop. -- Lucy Montgomery ------ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 9 13:12:18 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 Message-ID: <200408091812.LAA02995@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I'm mixing it up with one of the others. It looks like it is the comparator. I stand corrected. Dwight >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Aug 9 2004, 9:10, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "emanuel stiebler" >> > Hi, >> > anybody out here has a datasheet for those ? > >> If I'm not correct, these are a 8 bit bus buffer. > >I'm 99% sure you're not correct. They're 6-bit bus comparators. > DM8136 is the Signetics part number, and DS8136 is the NatSemi one; >alas I have data for neither. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From mross666 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 13:22:41 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: System/32 update Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Al Kossow wrote: >> > Thanks Sellam! Now if you find me a 360.... :-) >> >>how about a Univac 90 30 ? >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 > >Mmmmm. Nice. I hope someone in the UK can grab this. Consider it grabbed. I'm in the USA, but I'll go back home to Britland to grab that! Mike http://www.corestore.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 13:40:00 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: TurboC (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > MS-DOS is really a program loader, which is actually extremely important > since PCs do not come with monitor program. It also has a crude API (extended from the CP/M API). Are you saying that it is not an OS because you don't like the API? Or because the multitasking functions in the API are undocumented and crude? ... and it has DEBUG (the most powerful and important program to ever run on MS-DOS) > I have a VMware VM running MSDOS with network support and I use this > to compile TurboC programs (for some reason the tcc linker does not run > in a Windows 2000, or later DOS box, it does run on MS-DOS-based systems > like Windows 95/98/ME). I run the TurboC (2.0x) IDE on Win2K and on WinXP. I teach C Programming at College Of Alameda, where the lab is entirely Win2K, and at Vista College, where the lab is entirely XP. I make the students do one program using a command line compiler. I demo with, and offer them the use of, DeSmet/PCC, but they may substitute another command line compiler of their choice. The first assignment (getting the tools to work) is to write a program to put their name on the screen. That is significantly better as a first assignment than "Hello, world", since the personalization gives them more personal satisfaction on completion, and forces every one of them to do their own compile, instead of turning in a copy of somebody else's. Then I make them do one program using a crude IDE. I demo with, and offer them the use of TurboC V2.0, but they may substitute another crude IDE of their choice. THEN, and only then, I let them use any compiler that they want for the remainder of the course. Many immediately attempt to use Visual C. > Of course, I wouldn't use such a system for any real work :-) I am amazed > that people actually did so. depends on what kind of "real work" you WANT to do. It works [sort of] as an application launcher. But most of all, IT WILL GET OUT OF THE WAY when you want to do "real work". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 9 13:49:22 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> They thought it was a sewing machine. Guess the price was due to the limited availability of needles and bobbins.... >>> Works great, comes with 20GB MFM hard drive. 20 Gig MFM....Was not aware of such a beast...20MB IDE or 20MB MFM is more likely.... From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 9 14:00:40 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091987490.2048.3.camel@fortran> References: <1091987490.2048.3.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <1092078040.3883.14.camel@dhcp-251161> On Sun, 2004-08-08 at 10:51, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > Reading Scott Stevens' post regarding the FORTRAN decks, a bell suddenly > rang inside my wee head. > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1965.html > The 7090 had an accurate, mechanical TOD clock. Cool find! Here's the cogent text from that page, though this vintage is too old for me to have worked on, it brings back memories of weird interfaces: >From http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1965.html "... The 407 [peripheral to 709x] also had the closest thing ... to a time-of-day clock. It was a mechanical clock built into the 407 and counted 100ths of a minute. The 709x would interrogate the clock at the start and end of each job. Interrogating it was kind of interesting, because it involved printing the clock value on the printer, terminating the cycle before it actually made a mark on the paper, and then using the "echo checking" feature of the printer to fetch the actual value. Echo checking was a way for the program to make sure that the mechanical printer had actually printed the correct digit on the paper. The side effect of this is that if the program running interrogated the clock (say, with a call from Fortran, or if the operating system did it between steps of a job), the printer made a funny noise -- like printing, but not quite." Not unlike reading multiplexed seven-segment output from a watch chip, no?! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 14:02:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:01 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable In-Reply-To: References: <4110573D.6000905@chard.net> <20040808120654.P42272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040809115505.Q58928@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > I bought one at Salvation Army for $10. They thought it was a sewing machine > :) I carried one to Hawaii in 1983. There was plenty of room for it in the first class cabin (I wasn't paying for the ticket), but there was LOTS of discussion about bringing it onboard. The phrase "sewing machine" was used at least a dozen times. > Works great, comes with 20GB MFM hard drive. A bit non-stock, but still > cool. That would be 20MB. There are no 506/412 interface 20G drives. And even the 20M drives, other than aftermarket, weren't available until the very end of that model. And, until DOS 3.31, there wasn't support of having any partitions larger than 32M. > I'm going to see if Minix will run on it, with an Etherlink I network card > :) If not, there was a version of Xenix that would work on it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 14:11:50 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:49 PM Subject: RE: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable > >>> They thought it was a sewing machine. > > Guess the price was due to the limited availability of needles and > bobbins.... Actually it was due to the glut of sewing machines they had. I got a ton of cool stuff when they were overloaded with computer gear. Filled a shopping cart full of stuff for about $50. (Ataris, a bunch of TI99/4 stuff, Commodore 128 things, it was awesome) Alas they don't have a computer department anymore, but they did open up their basement where everything is under $10. Still some neat things from time to time. > >>> Works great, comes with 20GB MFM hard drive. > > 20 Gig MFM....Was not aware of such a beast...20MB IDE or 20MB MFM is more > likely.... Yeah, I automatically type GB when referring to hard drives these days. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 14:20:27 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Bludgeoned to death with an iPod? (was Re: Holy cow... Concealed weapons) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040809121941.H58928@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, chris wrote: > Cripes... I want to know if the iPod still works! That would be a > durability test no one else could lay claim to. "You can bash in your > boyfriend's head, and continue listening to your MP3's, all without > missing a beat" There's probably a clause voiding the warranty. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 9 14:25:12 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Altos 386/1000 - anyone got install media? Message-ID: <39176.192.168.1.10.1092079512.squirrel@server.inet> Hi there, I've just got an Altos 386/1000 with what appears to be 14M of memory, an expansion board with four RS232 ports and possibly two AUI ports (one is certainly AUI), and a 300-odd Mb hard drive that I suspect is dying. Does anyone have a copy of some install media for this? I would like to try another, healthier (and possibly quieter) SCSI drive in the old beast. I think it probably boots an installer from tape, but there is a 5.25" floppy drive as well. Thanks folks, Gordon JC Pearce. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 9 14:33:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about the days when a 19" Rack mount drive held 32K! [no that is NOT a typo....] http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~djg/htdocs/dfds32/pics/df32bottom.shtml?large >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason McBrien >>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 3:12 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "David V. Corbin" >>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:49 PM >>> Subject: RE: eBay Auction of Classic Compaq Luggable >>> >>> >>> > >>> They thought it was a sewing machine. >>> > >>> > Guess the price was due to the limited availability of needles and >>> > bobbins.... >>> >>> Actually it was due to the glut of sewing machines they >>> had. I got a ton of >>> cool stuff when they were overloaded with computer gear. >>> Filled a shopping >>> cart full of stuff for about $50. (Ataris, a bunch of TI99/4 stuff, >>> Commodore 128 things, it was awesome) Alas they don't have >>> a computer >>> department anymore, but they did open up their basement >>> where everything is >>> under $10. Still some neat things from time to time. >>> >>> > >>> Works great, comes with 20GB MFM hard drive. >>> > >>> > 20 Gig MFM....Was not aware of such a beast...20MB IDE or >>> 20MB MFM is more >>> > likely.... >>> >>> Yeah, I automatically type GB when referring to hard drives >>> these days. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Aug 9 13:35:36 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms Message-ID: <040809143536.1718a@splab.cas.neu.edu> Pete, I have a few tqk50 controllers (at least they are qbus and run tk50 drives). I'll have to look up the numbers but I'm pretty sure they say tqk50 on them. I am in the Boston, MA area. If I can fire up my eprom programmer and they are of the 27xxx ilk, I can read them. If not, I'll ship you a board, since I am a little closer. Joe Heck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 9 14:59:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040809155952.008d7c20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:23 PM 8/9/04 -0400, vp wrote: >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> First of all, a pure DOS computer is a VERY handy tool to have around. > >MS-DOS is really a program loader, which is actually extremely important >since PCs do not come with monitor program. Unless you use a Zenith PC. They came with a monitor/debugger built into ROM. Just use CNTL-ALT-INSERT to bring it up. OTOH I've had very good results just using Debug with MS-DOS. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 9 15:04:44 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TurboC (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Of course, I wouldn't use such a system for any real work :-) I am amazed > > that people actually did so. > > depends on what kind of "real work" you WANT to do. > It works [sort of] as an application launcher. > But most of all, IT WILL GET OUT OF THE WAY when you > want to do "real work". I developed somewhat mission critical systems on DOS that realized millions of dollars in revenue. I know other people who've done the same. DOS is very functional. And as Fred says, it gets out of the way when you want it to. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 9 15:28:46 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: <10408091823.ZM12447@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040809074413.02496cb0@192.168.0.1> <10408091823.ZM12447@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <11827.62.177.191.201.1092083326.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Pete, You should have told me earlier. I have a controller here which has those 2 roms on them. Mind you, the other 3 I have all have 23-248 & 23-249 on them. I could extract them an mail them to you if you like. Ed BTW, what's so special about them (other than being having a higher firmware revision)? > On Aug 9 2004, 7:46, Ed Kelleher wrote: >> At 07:23 AM 8/9/2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a TQK50 >> >controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. Can anyone >> >help? > >> Have 2 TQK50's K3 Rev with those ROM's on them I'm not using. >> Haven't fiddled with the EPROM machine for years, so no easy way to >>get the images. >> But I'll send you a board if nothing better turns up for you. > > If no-one else offers, that would be great. Thanks! Is there anyone > out there who could read the (EP)ROMs to save Ed sending them across > the Atlantic to me? > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Aug 9 15:53:21 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info Message-ID: <20040809205320.PAAC13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Gang, I'm looking for Commodore PET schematics, and any helpful info on troubleshooting a PET. The machine in question is a SuperPET 9000. This is basically a PET 4032 with an extra pair of boards added that allows a 6809 processor. I have two machines, one is fully functional, and one does not run on the "6502" setting (works on the 6809 setting). I also have a working 4032 which has an identical 6502 board to the SuperPET. I have stripped both SuperPET's down to the 6502 board only (ie: same as a 4032), the working one continues to work, and the dead one continues to not work. I suspect ROM's, as I have seen a lot of PET ROM's go bad ... unfortunately all three machines are NOT socketed, so simple swap tests are "unfriendly". All three machines when powered on, play a little "bee-dle-bee-dle-bee" in the Pizo speaker, and clear the screen - the two working units then proceed to display "Commodore BASIC version 4.0, .... READY", while the dead one does not. Entering the command "print chr$(7)" on the dead one does NOT result in a beep, indicating that BASIC is not running (it does beep on the other two). I'm assuming that it does clear the screen, because if powered up without the CPU plugged in it displays a screen full of "garbage" - ie: the video display is "hard" and active all the time - (the CPU is one of only a few chips in a socket due to it's being "moved" to the expansion board with a ribbon cable in the full configuration). Anyone have experience with these PET's? Anyone have schematics? Suggestions, etc. welcome. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 16:04:04 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I can make it so. I've gotten a previous request for the disks already. > Now there's Ryan and you. I'm surprised it comes up so often. > > Anyway, I'll try to get around to making disk images in another 3-4 weeks. > Thanks, I'd appriciate it. g. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 9 16:24:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I can make it so. I've gotten a previous request for the disks already. > > Now there's Ryan and you. I'm surprised it comes up so often. > > > > Anyway, I'll try to get around to making disk images in another 3-4 weeks. > > > > Thanks, I'd appriciate it. I'll post a message with a URL where the images can be downloaded from. If you don't hear from me in 3-4 weeks then please feel free to bug me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 9 16:28:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Keyboard pads Message-ID: I've found several keyboards with the foam pads. Incidentally, none were of either the Keytronic or Sun type that I've heard other people talk about. All the Keytronic keyboards and two of the Sun keyboards I checked do not have the pads, but rather rubber "cones". I've gotten fairly good at being able to determine which keyboards have the pads and which ones don't based on the feel of the keypress. Anyway, if anyone needs these pads for restoration work, I'll sell the relevant part of the keyboard for $10 plus shipping (minus extraneous plastic/metal to reduce weight), or I'll take all the pads out for you for $20 plus shipping. It may well work out to be a wash either way. Figure the cost is $.20 per pad if you have me take them out, which I think is a good deal. E-mail me privately if interested. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 9 16:36:06 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Heathkit Jr Workshop 35 Message-ID: <022401c47e58$e1dfaa10$19406b43@66067007> Found two of them but no docs or boxes. Not much on the web anybody have one or better yet have docs on this unit? Thanks From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 9 16:43:05 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TurboC (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <39297.192.168.1.10.1092087785.squirrel@server.inet> Fred Cisin said: > I make the students do one program using a command > line compiler. I demo with, and offer them the use of, > DeSmet/PCC, but they may substitute another command I used to really love that compiler, way back before I switched from DOS to Linux and discovered the joys of gcc... There's a lot to be said for DOS, though. There's an operating system called FlexOS which appears to be DOS with 32-bit stuff and loadable modules for, among other things, networking, that is used in a lot of POS gear. Gordon. From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Aug 9 17:23:58 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: <11827.62.177.191.201.1092083326.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040809074413.02496cb0@192.168.0.1> <10408091823.ZM12447@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <11827.62.177.191.201.1092083326.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: At 10:28 PM +0200 8/9/04, quapla@xs4all.nl wrote: >BTW, what's so special about them (other than being having a higher >firmware revision)? Don't know if this is why Pete wants them but, from memory, some versions of -11 OS, and maybe VMS too, are sensitive to the firmware revision level. There was a bug involving memory access crossing a 64k boundary. There may be others as well. For example, see: John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 16:46:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 8, 4 10:31:19 pm Message-ID: > > > also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be > > > found everywhere on the net. > > > > Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC. > > > > Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various > equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an AFAIK, Teledisk only handles 'standard' disk controllers. It wouldn't work with a Catweasel card, for example. Which immediately limits the disks it can be used with. > MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in the shop you can use > for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS > or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely > anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day > and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like > that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for > some high-and-holy reason. So what happens in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs left running (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore difficult to maintain -- have you ever seen official schematics to a PC later than a 286?). Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on whatever machine I have access to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 16:59:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 8, 4 09:45:47 pm Message-ID: > Tony's point is very well taken, and you seem to have missed it, and > substituted something else that Tony did not even imply. > > First of all, a pure DOS computer is a VERY handy tool to have around. At Agreed. I will admit to running an MS-DOS machine here (actually, I run several, but most of them are totally non-PC-compatible, things like the DEC Rainbow, HP110, HP150, etc). And yes, I do use it. But I don't want to _depend_ on it. In other words while I use it, and while it is often the most convenient tool to use for what I use it for, I don't save data in a format that requires that I use a PC to recover it. I could, in principle, write a program to interpret the file on any machine that was capable of physically reading the media. > least it is for me. There's a lot you can do with a simple DOS box and > some good tools (like ProComm for example). > > But to use Teledisk as the de facto standard for archiving floppy disks > would be an awful mistake, not the least of which is because Teledisk, as > Tony rightly pointed out, does not deal at all with GCR disk formats. Does it handle single density disks correctly? What about controllers at a non-standard address (Modern PC controllers handle a maximum of 2 drives, but you'd probably want to have at least a 5.25" 40 cylinder (360K), a 5.25" 80 cylinder (probably a high density one), a 3.5" 80 cylinder, mybe a 35." 40 cylinder (yes they do exist!), 8" single sided, 8" double sided, 3" single-head 'flippy' , 3" double head, and maybe even things like 3.25". > > Any format that is going to be adopted as the de facto standard for > archiving disks (and other media) must be able to handle ANY format, and > must also be OPEN, DOCUMENTED, and most importantly, NON-PROPRIETARY. > > I think this is pretty much what Tony said. Indeed it was, even if I didn't express myself clearly. My objection is not to PCs, it's not that people use PCs (I do so myself). It is that I don't want to be _forced_ to use a PC. And I certainly don't want to find a PC in 20 or so years time to recover the data. If the format is open and documented, then if you, say, want to archive an Apple ][ disk, then the Apple ][ can read the disk and squirt the archive data over a serial port to, say, a PC. It can then be saved on disk there, in a docuemtned format that could either be sent back to another Apple ][, or used with a software emulator, or used with a programt that could extract infromation from the archive (say it could turn a printable text file into a PC text file). To give some idea of what I mean (and this is no way a universal solution) you might look at my LIF Utilities for Linux (on the HPCC web site). This is an ongoing project which started off as a way to archive HP9114 disk images (the disk drive used with the HP41/HP71/HP75 calculators) on a linux PC. It then grew, with me adding filters to turn HP LIF1 format text files into normal text files, to produce printable listings of HP41 programs, and so on. And I'll add more when I have time. OK, I used a linux PC _but I documented everything_ (and open-sourced the progrmas for that matter). If you don't like linux, well, don't expect me to write a version for your chosen OS or computer. But I have given you the information to write it yourself -- the file formats are all documented. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 17:02:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <200408090941.i799fJHj008653@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Aug 9, 4 05:41:19 am Message-ID: > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Talking of HP using 555 timers, they used one to drive the power-on light > > in the HP86 (and I assuem the HP97). [...] > (nitpicking here, you are talking about the 87) Yes, of course I am. The 97 is a Topcat calculator and is totally different... > > > So the LED is dark if the machine is off, on steadily if the machine is > > on and no error (555 is held reset, so the output is low all the time), > > and blinks (controlled by the 555) if there's an error. > > Actually the LED blinks when the machine is busy (e.g. running a program). Drat!. That means I have to make a correction to the signal name on my hand-drawn HP86B schemtic. Oh well... Better to make the correction than have confusion later. > This is very neat as with the HP85 you sometimes do not know whether the > program has finished or is still running. On the 85, the LED just runs off one of the supply lines via a resistor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 17:10:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info In-Reply-To: <20040809205320.PAAC13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Aug 9, 4 04:53:21 pm Message-ID: > Anyone have experience with these PET's? Anyone have schematics? > Suggestions, etc. welcome. Deos ftp://ftp.funet.fi/ still exist? That used to be a good place for Commodore schematics and technical info, -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 9 17:51:51 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Anyone have experience with these PET's? Anyone have schematics? > > Suggestions, etc. welcome. > > Deos ftp://ftp.funet.fi/ still exist? That used to be a good place for > Commodore schematics and technical info, Yup, FUNET's still alive. for the CBM stuff. There's also a web-based version at . Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Smile... people will wonder what you've been up to. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 9 18:04:05 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040809230405.GB29744@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 10:59:10PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > maybe a 3.5" 40 cylinder (yes they do exist!)... Yee-Data 600? At SRC, we had some blocky 3.5" drive that is twice as tall as "modern" 3.5" drives on one of our own proprietary routerish-terminalserverish boxes that never hit the market (architected by Dr. John Goltz of CompuServe, no less). I'm pretty sure it was a Yee-Data drive, and it was old enough (c. 1983 or 1984) that it might not have been an 80 track drive. I still have one or two up in the attic from when we scrapped the project (along with the motherboards, etc... it was 68000-based, with a 68451 MMU... not a common part) Fun boxes - kinda of a next-generation version of what CompuServe tied their network together with. Given the timeframe that it was under development, it might have made an impact in the market had it been released. We did the software prototyping on some Godbout S-100 boxes (long since been given away to a new home). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Aug-2004 22:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-64.9 C) Windchill -126.1 F (-87.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.6 kts Grid 055 Barometer 673.1 mb (10888. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 18:37:02 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Diversi-DIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'll post a message with a URL where the images can be downloaded from. > If you don't hear from me in 3-4 weeks then please feel free to bug me. > Will do. Thanks again! g. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 9 18:41:07 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TurboC (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In message <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > THEN, and only then, I let them use any compiler > that they want for the remainder of the course. > Many immediately attempt to use Visual C. Visual C. *spit*. I prefer GCC - on RISC OS I use GCCSDK, on Win32 I use MinGW and on Linux I use the "normal" IA-32 GCC. For DOS16 work, I tend to use the freeware Digital Mars C++ compiler. > depends on what kind of "real work" you WANT to do. > It works [sort of] as an application launcher. > But most of all, IT WILL GET OUT OF THE WAY when you > want to do "real work". Very nice when you want to, oh, say, take over the disc controller and make it read some oddball format or other :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 18:50:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040809163239.T75975@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > What about controllers at a non-standard address (Modern PC controllers > handle a maximum of 2 drives, but you'd probably want to have at least a > 5.25" 40 cylinder (360K), a 5.25" 80 cylinder (probably a high density > one), a 3.5" 80 cylinder, mybe a 35." 40 cylinder (yes they do exist!), The 3.5" 40 cylinder drives certainly exist. They were available for the Epson Geneva PX-8 (3.5" DS 40 cyl) Also, IIRC, the first "portable disk drive" for the Tandy 100 was 40 cylinder (but NOT MFM) > 8"single sided, 8" double sided, 3" single-head 'flippy' , 3" double head, > and maybe even things like 3.25". The only machine that I've seen that came with a 3.25" (not retrofitted later) was Seequa Chameleon 325. Dysan bet the company on 3.25" and LOST. Most of the really major software was available on 3.25", but not computers that used them. If you use software that accesses the drive at the BIOS level, or below, then you can hook up a LOT of drives (2 at a time) with a rotary switch on the drive select lines. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 19:07:01 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TurboC (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: <200408091723.i79HNGhD012525@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <20040809111742.N58928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040809165313.B75975@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Visual C. *spit*. There are some people who really like its capabilities. Also, the guy who teaches C++ makes his students use it. But for a FIRST semester student, if it's used as the default compiler, MOST of the semester will be taken up with learning the tools. > I prefer GCC - on RISC OS I use GCCSDK, on Win32 I use MinGW and on Linux I > use the "normal" IA-32 GCC. > For DOS16 work, I tend to use the freeware Digital Mars C++ compiler. There are a LOT of compilers that are better suited for LEARNING C than Visual C is! I send my students to: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/msdos-programmer-faq/part5/section-10.html And, I finally got the lab for my class switched to a lab that also has a few Macs! Now, students who want to try something else will have the opportunity. > > depends on what kind of "real work" you WANT to do. > > It works [sort of] as an application launcher. > > But most of all, IT WILL GET OUT OF THE WAY when you > > want to do "real work". > Very nice when you want to, oh, say, take over the disc controller and make > it read some oddball format or other :) EXACTLY! but also handy for things like screen capture, or background TSRs -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Aug 9 19:28:09 2004 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (rschaefe@gcfn.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: important Message-ID: <200408100044.i7A0iBbY070870@huey.classiccmp.org> Please read the important document. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 9 19:57:48 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu "Re: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 9, 14:35) References: <040809143536.1718a@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <10408100157.ZM12797@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 14:35, trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > Pete, > I have a few tqk50 controllers (at least they are qbus and run tk50 > drives). I'll have to look up the numbers but I'm pretty sure they say > tqk50 on them. I am in the Boston, MA area. If I can fire up my eprom > programmer and they are of the 27xxx ilk, I can read them. If not, I'll > ship you a board, since I am a little closer. Shipping would still be transatlantic, but the ROMs should be 27128s so they should be easy to read. Intel HEX or a binary image are preferred, but I can also handle S-record files if necessary. Thank you! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 9 20:04:46 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: quapla@xs4all.nl "Re: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 9, 22:28) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040809074413.02496cb0@192.168.0.1> <10408091823.ZM12447@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <11827.62.177.191.201.1092083326.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <10408100204.ZM12808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 22:28, quapla@xs4all.nl wrote: > You should have told me earlier. I have a controller here which has > those 2 roms on them. Mind you, the other 3 I have all have 23-248 & > 23-249 on them. Ah. That's a shame -- I could have copied them while you were here! > BTW, what's so special about them (other than being having a higher > firmware revision)? Later versions of some OSs don't like some of the bugs in the earlier ROMs, when you have a full complement of memory, so I want to upgrade the TQK50 in my MicroVAX. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 9 20:52:10 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Univac on eBay - was RE: System/32 update... In-Reply-To: <001501c47df3$4f0a0c40$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 As much as I like Univacs, I am a bit overextended right now (maybe if that damn B1955 hadn't come along...). Will anyone be taking a shot at this? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 9 20:56:57 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Cool finds: B-24 Radio manual In-Reply-To: <012001c47cf6$5acdeae0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: > personally i'd keep it in a vacuum sealed bag. that's a very rare find from > what I know of a lot of museums would be interested in that. Well, they are not all that rare, but demand is pretty high, so they fetch a good buck. They must have made a zillion copies for the B-24D, but not nearly as many for every other plane. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 9 20:58:51 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Did it even have a terminal program or a serial port or some other > way to connect it to a Unix machine or a mainframe? Yes, it could connect to an S/3 (and probably S/370). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Aug 9 19:38:04 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: contact lube Message-ID: <040809203804.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> We have used stabilant 22 for about 14 years now, mostly on 1/4 inch phone jacks and plugs that get oxidized from infrequent use. Saw that trick in a Byte magazine way back. Expensive but it works for us. Joe Heck From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Aug 9 20:58:22 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms Message-ID: <040809215822.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have three boards. Two of them are Rev. K3. One of the boards has PROMS on it, and no readable version, but the second has the 330-E5 and the 331-E5. What is your timeframe? I have to power up the right PC with the eprom burner on it to read them, but that could be done within a fortnight or less. Joe Heck From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Aug 9 20:37:39 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: National Semiconductor DS8136/DM8136 Message-ID: <040809213739.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> Could not find a DS8136 in any book but found the DM8136 in the 1981 National Semiconductor Logic Databook, section 7. It is a 6-bit Unified Bus COmparator, 16 pin. used to compare two 6 bit words. I have the paper copy of the documentation, only 3 pages. I'll post more if somebody needs it, or do it offline. Joe Heck From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Aug 9 20:45:00 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TIL306...any leads Message-ID: <040809214500.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> The first edition of the Optoelectronics Data Book for Design Engineers by Texas Instrument, date unknown, probably early 70's lists this device along with a test circuit. The six pages have specs and a small application circuit for cascading the displays. No other circuits are in my library as far as I can tell. Joe Heck From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 9 21:12:55 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: SAGE as vaporware In-Reply-To: <16659.36347.660000.901368@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > It would be a much better article if it contained references > supporting the claims, rather than just assertions without any backup. For one, Nike and SAGE were not really competition. Second, SAGE wasn't super easy to jam. The first datalinks worked on the tactical UHF band (still in use today) of 225-400 MHz. Radios in this band are pretty frequency agile - anyone that saw the AN/ARR-39 Datalink Receiver control box I had at VCFeast would see that the channels could be changed quite quickly - probably quicker that the jammers could retune. Later datalinks worked on FM, and were tougher to jam. I wouldn't call SAGE vaoprware - certainly things like the gap-fillers were intensely usefull, even without the computers. SAGE mostly failed to meet its specs due to the ICBM, however, it still was a fine way to integrate an air defense. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 9 21:21:35 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: First computer with real-time clock? In-Reply-To: <1091738889.3840.87.camel@dhcp-248209> Message-ID: > > No, the streams were just digitized radar video. > > Yeah, no kidding! What I mean is that there is no time stamping, no complex format, no handshaking - just a bunch of bits. > * the CRTs deflection yoke mechanically rotated in sync with the radar > dish via Selsyns & servos; By the 1950s, the rotating yoke was mostly out of fashion, save a few World War 2 designs that refused to die. Even some World War 2 PPI scopes did away with them, doing the rotation electronically (SCR-584, for one). > * map overlays, if any, were either transparencies applied to the CRT > face, or electronic ones were a lucite mask over another CRT, complete > with rotating yoke in sync with the main display, and a phototube that > picked up the "map" outline on the lucite, and summed the "map" voltage > in with the radar analog data; This is how the SAGE AN/FSA-10 gap-fillers worked - the scopes of up to six radars were directed at one radially scanned image tube. The result was a composite radar video stream. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 9 21:34:46 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040809010841.00ae10f8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 9, 04 01:16:32 am Message-ID: <200408100234.WAA06944@wordstock.com> And thusly Roger Merchberger spake: > > > That said, what I *have* been looking for (and google turned up nothing the > last 3 times I checked) is a set of: > > Greenbar Bedsheets. > Now *these* should be sold at the next Vintage Computer Faire!! :-) Sellam? Cheers, Bryan Pope > I'd doubt they're still made, and it seems they weren't that popular when > they were, as they certainly didn't make a big mark on google or history, > it seems. > > Ah well... one can dream, right? > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 9 21:42:22 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? References: <200408100234.WAA06944@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4118360E.2050803@jetnet.ab.ca> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Roger Merchberger spake: >>That said, what I *have* been looking for (and google turned up nothing the >>last 3 times I checked) is a set of: >>Greenbar Bedsheets. > Now *these* should be sold at the next Vintage Computer Faire!! :-) Sellam? Does one get a choice of ASCII art on the BedSheets? Naughty Dreamer. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 9 23:06:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? In-Reply-To: <200408100234.WAA06944@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Bryan Pope wrote: > > That said, what I *have* been looking for (and google turned up nothing the > > last 3 times I checked) is a set of: > > > > Greenbar Bedsheets. > > > > Now *these* should be sold at the next Vintage Computer Faire!! :-) Sellam? If someone can find a batch, I'll sell them. Heck, I'd buy a set myself! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 06:46:00 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:46 PM 8/9/04 +0100, you wrote: >> > > also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be >> > > found everywhere on the net. >> > >> > Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC. >> > >> >> Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various >> equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an > >AFAIK, Teledisk only handles 'standard' disk controllers. It wouldn't >work with a Catweasel card, for example. Which immediately limits the >disks it can be used with. I'm no expert on disk but IIRC there's NO software for the Catweasel except what you write yourself so why does the make Teledisk any less appealing? > >> MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in the shop you can use >> for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS >> or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely >> anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day >> and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like >> that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for >> some high-and-holy reason. > >So what happens in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from >one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs >left running I have a 20+ plus year old PC that runs just fine. I've passed up HUNDREDs more that also worked fine. In fact, I've seen almost none that didn't work. (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore >difficult to maintain Bah! The PC is probably THE best documented computer out there. Name another company that produced as thorough a Tech Ref as IBM. Name another comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many service and parts manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND PERIPHERALS. Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many versions, including third party and public domain OSs. Name another computer that has had THOUSANDS of third party books written about it. Name another computer that has as much third party hardware and software support. List another computer that you can go to ANY school in the modern world and take classes on. Name another computer that was build with all standard TTL parts like the original PC was. Finally name another computer that was sold in the huge quantities and that you can find on EVERY continent like you can a PC. You just don't like PCs and MS-DOS! You've told me that face to face personally. Sure there are other computers that are smaller, bigger, faster, that do X better, etc, etc, etc but in terms of just plain availability and usefullness I'd pick a PC everytime. -- have you ever seen official schematics to a PC >later than a 286?). Then don't use a "later than 286" PC. That's one of the beauties of the PC family, it IS a family and there are many specific models to choose from. Not only are there different models within IBM but there are many different brands to choose from and they're all compatible with the exception of a relatively few early machines. >Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the >format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on >whatever machine I have access to. Yeah, like you're really going to get full documentation for that CatWeasel card! Joe Joe > >-tony > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 10 07:22:05 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: quapla@xs4all.nl "Re: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 9, 22:28) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040809074413.02496cb0@192.168.0.1> <10408091823.ZM12447@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <11827.62.177.191.201.1092083326.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <10408101322.ZM13372@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 22:28, quapla@xs4all.nl wrote: > > You should have told me earlier. I have a controller here which has > those 2 roms on them. Mind you, the other 3 I have all have 23-248 & > 23-249 on them. Hmm. Turns out I don't have 248/249 either (unless you mean 208/209?). Have you got any way to dump those for me as well? Just to add to the collection. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 10 07:22:28 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu "Re: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 9, 21:58) References: <040809215822.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <10408101322.ZM13376@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 21:58, trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > I have three boards. Two of them are Rev. K3. One of the boards has PROMS > on it, and no readable version, but the second has the 330-E5 and the > 331-E5. What is your timeframe? I have to power up the right PC with > the eprom burner on it to read them, but that could be done within a > fortnight or less. Thanks very much to to all who responded, both on- and off-list. I've now got images, and I'll put them in the usual place in case anyone else needs them :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Aug 10 08:18:37 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: TIL306...any leads References: Message-ID: <00d901c47edc$9a73c600$0200a8c0@geoff> http://www.dialelec.com/758.html One source above from googling - but a bit expensive ! Ouch! They also supply pdf's. http://eshop.bg/eshop3/phps/chat_ping.php This one is in Bulgarian ! Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cass" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 5:21 PM Subject: TIL306...any leads I am looking for TIL306 circuits do you have any leads as to where i can get some?? best regards -Cassandra Munro From unibus at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 08:46:37 2004 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: Newbie enquiries (MONECS/DEAMON) Message-ID: At 01:10 PM 22/11/2002 +1100, Kane, David (DPRS) wrote: >>The system comprised a CPU and dual 8" floppy in a half height rack, on >>top of which sat a marked sense card reader, and in the corner was a DEC >>line printer. My memory of the CPU front panel is that it looks somewhat >>like an 11/34 picture I found in the user manual PDF with the programmers >>console. But I definitely remember it as an "slash zero" something model, >>so I believe that it was an 04. However the only picture of an 04 I have >>found to date has a rather basic looking programmers panel, by basic I >>mean as it is simple white text on black panel and buttons. I seem to >>remember the octal keypad had a border drawn on the pane and was a little >>bit smarter looking, maybe there were updated cosmetic version of the >>panel. The system booted straight to a local derivative of FORTRAN (MONECS >>FORTRAN), so we were insulated from the hardware and I therefore have no >>memory or interface card details. > >The MONECS system we had at La Trobe for many years was an 11/23 (maybe >an >11/23+) although this was the prepackaged version from Digital known as the >DEAMON. For those of you outside of Australia: > >MONECS - MONash (University) Educational Computing System PDP-11/05 (or PDP11/10), core memory, Documation or HP brand mark sense card readers, Memorex 751 floppy disk drives (these preceeded 8 inch floppys that most people would recognise) and a line printer. System packaging varied greatly with the processor and drives racked into desks or wheeled cabinets. They were in various Secondary schools in Victoria, Monash University (for first year students before they graduated to terminals) and some may have been used at Melbourne University. Suggest C. Ching would have the best knowledge of these systems. >DEAMON - Digital Equipment Australia / MONash >From memory the versions I maintained were PDP11/04 based, RX01, etc. The 11/03, 11/23 would have been later machines. http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/museum/ > >Monash University developed a card based system where the user wrote code >(in FORTRAN, COBOL and ISTR a pseudo-assembler) and used pre-punched or >mark sense cards. You queued up to use the card reader, loaded your own job >and collected output almost immediately. I used the main frame based >(probably Burroughs) predecessor to lean to program FORTRAN in either 1969 >or 1970. We used to send our cards by post to Monash and if we were lucky >would get one run a week.... Probably Fortran on the Burroughs B5500, maybe too early for the B6700, this is before my time. Think both of these machines were ex-Victorian Government Gas and Fuel Corporation mainframes and were donated to Monash Uni by Burroughs for a token amount. > >Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 10 09:53:39 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200408101459.KAA14373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many > versions, including third party and public domain OSs. Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values of "OS" as marginal as MS-DOS. (Not to detract from your basic point, which I agree with - if there are public domain OSes out there, I would expect most of them to be for peecees....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 10:23:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408101459.KAA14373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? There's also Minux and Linux which may not technically public domain but they're certainly free. I'm not sure about the older versions of DR-DOS but but I seem to recall that they're in the public domain now too and I believe CPM also is. Anybody know the status of CPM-86? The last that I heard MPM was still being sold commercially but I expect that it may end up in the public domain before long. Joe At 10:53 AM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: >> Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many >> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. > >Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't >think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values >of "OS" as marginal as MS-DOS. (Not to detract from your basic point, >which I agree with - if there are public domain OSes out there, I would >expect most of them to be for peecees....) > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 10:26:53 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:02 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810112653.00885810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> BTW someone was collecting a list of operating systems and the machines that they ran on. Does anyone know if and where it's posted? Joe What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? There's also Minux and Linux which may not technically public domain but they're certainly free. I'm not sure about the older versions of DR-DOS but but I seem to recall that they're in the public domain now too and I believe CPM also is. Anybody know the status of CPM-86? The last that I heard MPM was still being sold commercially but I expect that it may end up in the public domain before long. Joe At 10:53 AM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: >> Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many >> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. > >Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't >think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values >of "OS" as marginal as MS-DOS. (Not to detract from your basic point, >which I agree with - if there are public domain OSes out there, I would >expect most of them to be for peecees....) > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 10 11:00:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200408101606.MAA14678@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many >>> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. >> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I >> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, > What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of free. While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief poke around the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy image, and it's certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in it. (This is rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with no license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in most jurisdictions.) Note that "public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of "free" as applied to software. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 13:12:02 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408101606.MAA14678@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:00 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: >>>> Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many >>>> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. >>> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I >>> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, >> What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? > >I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of free. >While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief poke around >the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy image, and it's >certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in it. (This is rather >disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with no license grant, it is >probably illegal to do anything with it in most jurisdictions.) That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making modifications and then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not it's copyrighted ultimatly has nothing to do with it's cost. It can be "freeware", "shareware" or regular commercail software no matter what the copyright status is. > >Note that "public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific >meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of >"free" as applied to software. I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for free. Joe > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 10 13:19:25 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200408101827.OAA15528@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (This is rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with no >> license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in most >> jurisdictions.) > That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software > where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also > stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making > modifications and then selling it as their own work. I think that would, legally, count as a license grant. If such statements from all the relevant authors accompanied FreeDOS, I wouldn't worry about it. But I couldn't find anything of the sort. > Wheather or not it's copyrighted ultimatly has nothing to do with > it's cost. Oh, I wasn't talking about cost. If it's not in the public domain and the copyright holder has not granted a license to do something with it, then the only things it is legal to do with it are the things covered by the fair use exemption, which are pretty specific and limited. >> Note that "public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific >> meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of >> "free" as applied to software. > I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people > Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" > owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for > free. Public domain _is a subset of_ free. It does not _equal_ free; that is, the two are not the same. Many people confuse the two. I've even seen notices that are clearly intended as copyright notices/licenses that (sometimes even in the same sentence) say that something is public domain and that the author imposes restrictions on its use - which cannot both be true. But just because some people confuse them does not mean they are the same thing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 10 13:27:42 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200408101327.43155.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 10 August 2004 13:12, Joe R. wrote: > At 12:00 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: > >>>> Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many > >>>> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. > >>> > >>> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I > >>> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, > >> > >> What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? > > > >I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of > > free. While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief > > poke around the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy > > image, and it's certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in > > it. (This is rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with > > no license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in > > most jurisdictions.) > > That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software > where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also > stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making > modifications and then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not > it's copyrighted ultimatly has nothing to do with it's cost. It can > be "freeware", "shareware" or regular commercail software no matter > what the copyright status is. That statement is called a "license grant". You seem to be ignoring the meaning of "free" that der Mouse is referring to -- free as in freedom ("libre"), not free as in 0-cost. "Free software" is not freeware, shareware, or proprietary ("commercial") software. Public domain is essentially "free software," as you can do whatever you want with it. > >Note that "public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific > >meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of > >"free" as applied to software. > > I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people > Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" > owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for > free. Again, "free" as applied to software a la "Free Software Foundation" normally means "libre" not 0-cost. If you're equating "public domain" to "free," you haven't been paying attention to the movement started by things like GNU, Linux, and *BSD. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 13:53:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408101327.43155.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810145332.008873e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Pat, I understand all that but go back and read the original statement which specificly said "public domain". It never said free. You and mouse have taken this whole thing well away from the original discussion and intent. Joe At 01:27 PM 8/10/04 -0500, you wrote: >On Tuesday 10 August 2004 13:12, Joe R. wrote: >> At 12:00 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: >> >>>> Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many >> >>>> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. >> >>> >> >>> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I >> >>> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, >> >> >> >> What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? >> > >> >I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of >> > free. While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief >> > poke around the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy >> > image, and it's certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in >> > it. (This is rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with >> > no license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in >> > most jurisdictions.) >> >> That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software >> where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also >> stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making >> modifications and then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not >> it's copyrighted ultimatly has nothing to do with it's cost. It can >> be "freeware", "shareware" or regular commercail software no matter >> what the copyright status is. > >That statement is called a "license grant". You seem to be ignoring the >meaning of "free" that der Mouse is referring to -- free as in freedom >("libre"), not free as in 0-cost. "Free software" is not freeware, >shareware, or proprietary ("commercial") software. Public domain is >essentially "free software," as you can do whatever you want with it. > >> >Note that "public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific >> >meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of >> >"free" as applied to software. >> >> I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people >> Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" >> owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for >> free. > >Again, "free" as applied to software a la "Free Software Foundation" >normally means "libre" not 0-cost. If you're equating "public domain" >to "free," you haven't been paying attention to the movement started by >things like GNU, Linux, and *BSD. > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 10 14:05:47 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <41191C8B.7070608@srv.net> Back to 8" floppy drives... I have a Shugart 851 8" drive (unknown condition, but was supposed to be good last time it was used many years ago). Looks ok mechanically, door opens/closes, moter can be turned, dusty. I have no way of testing it further. It's just been sitting on a shelf for many years. I have no use for it, so what is a fair price (+postage), and does anyone want one? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 13:55:12 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: public domain v free (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408101827.OAA15528@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040808223119.7d784d8d.sastevens@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810112355.00885100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040810141202.008f5610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200408101827.OAA15528@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040810114522.F89964@shell.lmi.net> > I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people > Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" > owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for > free. Yes, "public domain" (relinquishment of copyright ownership) is free. But free is not necessarily public domain. There do exist some things that are copyrighted, but available to the public for free. Consider Richard Stallman. None of his stuff is public domain. He retains copyright on it so that he can make restrictions on it. Consider Shareware. Every shareware author who understands the laws retains copyright. One major reason is that there have been numerous cases of others hijacking the revenue stream! Sometimes it is a case where somebody makes enhancements, and then directs the donations/fees/payments to themselves - consider S.E.A v Phil Katz. Other times, there have been people who have done nothing more than change the splash screen to redirect the money. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Aug 10 14:12:08 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: TIL306...any leads References: <00d901c47edc$9a73c600$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <024001c47f0e$01008ee0$0200a8c0@geoff> I've just found a one page description in an old quarndon catalogue , it's a bit small -I'll see if I can blow it up in work tomorrow. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:18 PM Subject: Re: TIL306...any leads > http://www.dialelec.com/758.html > One source above from googling - but a bit expensive ! Ouch! > They also supply pdf's. > > http://eshop.bg/eshop3/phps/chat_ping.php > This one is in Bulgarian ! > > Geoff. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cass" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 5:21 PM > Subject: TIL306...any leads > > > I am looking for TIL306 circuits do you have any leads as to where i can get > some?? > > best regards > -Cassandra Munro > From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Aug 10 14:47:34 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: TIL306...any leads References: <040809214500.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <026001c47f13$142e47a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Forget my last post , try this link ! http://webferret.search.com/click?wf,+data+til306,,www.alltronics.com%2Fdown load%2FTIL306.pdf,,altavista I haven't used webferret for years - forgotten all about it almost. Works for me - and you ! Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:45 AM Subject: RE: TIL306...any leads > The first edition of the Optoelectronics Data Book for Design Engineers > by Texas Instrument, date unknown, probably early 70's lists this device > along with a test circuit. The six pages have specs and a small application > circuit for cascading the displays. No other circuits are in my library > as far as I can tell. > > Joe Heck From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 10 15:05:18 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: DOS looking like a mainframe project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408101605.18284.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 August 2004 23:12, Ron Hudson wrote: > Ok, Here's another pet project of mine.. I Have a simple DOS6.22 > installed in one of my laptops, and > I want to make it look like as much like an IBM (it's an IBM laptop too > btw) mainframe as possible. I am working > on a vauge memory from a job over 10 years ago when I had an account on > the R&D little mainframe. I had a copy of ISPF for the PC. The lattest version is now window based. There is also the hercules emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/ - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBGSp+LPrIaE/xBZARAmzjAJ0aPRTbWJdUnvDoM43kuPrPbTAMVwCgpvGw WACj/8DKuNHn5H4EViFPdmI= =8GKo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tyger69 at chartermi.net Tue Aug 10 16:58:51 2004 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Business Computer System Message-ID: <001d01c47f25$394a3aa0$0600a8c0@cablemodem> While reading through an old (1979) book, I came across a reference to a Tandy 10 system (complete with picture), as an example of "turnkey systems". Judging from the date of publication, I presume this is some precursor to the TRS-80, but I have not been able to dig up any more info on it. Has anyone else ever heard of such a computer before, and could you share your info, please? --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 16:41:57 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 10, 4 07:46:00 am Message-ID: > >AFAIK, Teledisk only handles 'standard' disk controllers. It wouldn't > >work with a Catweasel card, for example. Which immediately limits the > >disks it can be used with. > > I'm no expert on disk but IIRC there's NO software for the Catweasel > except what you write yourself so why does the make Teledisk any less > appealing? For the very simple reason that the Teledisk archive format is undocumented, which means the only thing that can read/write it reliably is Teledisk itself. Which means that you can't use the Teledisk format as a universal archive format (which is what we are discussing here), since you couldn't, say, write a program that used the Catweasel to read an Apple ][ disk and store the result in a Teledisk-structured file. Let me give a real example of when this could be useful. Suppose you have a PDP11 running RT11 with 8" floppies. Now, DEC made 2 types of 8" floppy unit, the RX01 which used an industry-stnadard FM (single-density) format and the RX02 which used a very strange DEC-specific format. To make life more interesting, the classic-PERQs have a floppy format called 'Interchange Format' which is very similar to the RT11 filesystem. Similar enough that a PERQ can read/write a DEC RT11 disk, and a PDP11 running RT11 will read/write(with one minor problem) a PERQ interchange disk (the difference, for those who are interested, is that the PERQ interchange disk has one extra word in the directory entry of each file which is used to provide a true file length value, not just the number of ;blocks used). The PERQ hardware uses an NEC 765 controller (same as a PC) with a data separator capable of working in FM (single density) or MFM (double density) operation. The single density is compartible wiht the DEC RX01, the double density is, of course, incompatible with the RX02. But any PC controller capable of high density operation can read the double denisty PERQ disks, and PC controllers capable of single density operation can read the single diensity PERQ disks and DEC RX01s. Now remember that the file system is essentially the same on all these disks. It is possble to design an interface to link a DEC RX02 up to a PC (the interfave to the PDP11 bus is quite simple, doing it to ISA wouldn't be much worse). In which case you could read these strange DEC not-quite-double-density disks on a PC. But what you couldn't than do is create a Teeldisk archive of an RX02 becuase the format of that archive isn't documented. And suppose you want to do more with the disk images than just write them back to disk. Maybe use them with an emulator on the PC. Maybe extract files from them. Since the format of the Teledisk archive isn't documented you probably couldn't do this. And even if the limited docuemtnation that exists is enough, you would have to write 2 programs (or add all sorts of conditionals to one program) -- one to handle RX01s and PERQ double-density disks saves in Teledisk format, one to handle RX02s archived in some other format. No thanks. The whole point of a universal archive format is to only have to do this sort of thing once. > >So what happens in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from > >one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs > >left running > > I have a 20+ plus year old PC that runs just fine. I've passed up So do I, I am using it right now. However in my experience that more complex the chip, the more likely it is to fail (this doesn't mean that the overall system reliabity goes down -- it doesn't because there are fewer components to fail in a more modern machine with high levels of integration). But I would suspect the 74xx chips on my PC's motherboard will last longer than the gate arrays in a modern machine. > HUNDREDs more that also worked fine. In fact, I've seen almost none that > didn't work. You nave been _very lucky_ > (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore > >difficult to maintain > > Bah! The PC is probably THE best documented computer out there. Name > another company that produced as thorough a Tech Ref as IBM. Name another OK, trivial... If you want both hardware and software documentation (i.e. schematics _and ROM source code_) then the obvious ones are : Apple : Apple ][ and Apple //e (and maybe other machines in that family). I am told the IBM PC Techref was modelled on the Apple manuals. HP : HP71B. I am sure you've read the complete IDS (I certainly have, it's excellent). Incidentally, do you have the HP71 Forth IMS (Internal Maintenance Specification)? It's very interesting. Research Machines : RML380Z. It's a separate hardware 'Information File' giving schematics, etc and a COS (Cassette Operating System) Source listing. Admittedly I've never seen the latter (it was an optional purchase), but it existed. DEC : PDP11. The PDP11/45 CPU technical manual and printset (schematics) are much better than the IBM Techref. You could get a source license for the OS if you could afford it, too. DEC : PDP8. I am not sure about the OS sources, but the hardware manuals, at least for the 8/e are again excellent. HEath/Zentih : H89/Z90. The manuals I got with my Z90 had schematics and ROM source listings in them. If you just want hardware docs (i.e. full schematics) and the programming interface (i.e. not full ROM sources) then also : HP : Portable+ , HP150, etc (and I assume the HP110). There are excellent technical manuals for these machines Acorn : BBC Micro, Archimedes, etc. Again, schematics are easy to obtain either in 'Advanced User Guides' or service manuals Raido Shack : All TRS-80s had service manuals available to anyone who wanted to order them. And many had technical reference manuals available as well. Need I go on? > comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many service and parts > manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND PERIPHERALS. IBM service manuals (at least the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual i have for my PC/AT) are boardswapper guides. They're pretty useless now, they are totally useless when there are no more boards to swap. > Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many versions, This has nothing to do with being able to maintain the machine. > including third party and public domain OSs. Name another computer that has > had THOUSANDS of third party books written about it. Name another computer And most of those books are not worth the paper they're printed on! > that has as much third party hardware and software support. List another > computer that you can go to ANY school in the modern world and take classes And do any of said classes actually cover the hardware at the chip level? > on. Name another computer that was build with all standard TTL parts like > the original PC was. Finally name another computer that was sold in the Firstly the PC wasn't built entirely from TTL. There are some standard Intel chips (CPU, DMA controller, interrupt controller, etc). And of course programemd ROMs. If we allow those, then a partial list would be Apple ][, TRS80 Model 1, Model 3, Model 4, Sinclair ZX80, Nascom, HH Tiger, TRS-80 CoCo 1, Dragon 32, Sage 2, Apricot, Sirius, etc, etc, etc If you allow PALs, then you could even add the early Apple Macs to that list, along with the PERQ 3a, Torch XXX, etc If you want to move the goalposts and not allow LSI processors, then how about PDP8/e, PDP11/10, PDP11/34, PDP11/45, (etc), Philps P850, Philips P854. PERQs (all except for the 3a, although admittedly there are LSI chips -- but not custom ones -- things like a Z80, NEC 765, etc -- on the I/O card), HP9810/20/30, and many, many, more. > huge quantities and that you can find on EVERY continent like you can a PC. > > You just don't like PCs and MS-DOS! You've told me that face to face Correct... > personally. Sure there are other computers that are smaller, bigger, > faster, that do X better, etc, etc, etc but in terms of just plain > availability and usefullness I'd pick a PC everytime. Fine... You use a PC, that's yuor choice. However, I am not so arrogant as to want to impose my choices on the rest of the world. In other words, the whole point of a universal archive format (let's not forget what this thread is really about) is that you don't have to use a particular machine. If you want to use a PC, fine, use a PC. You can write software to create and process that archive format. If I want to use a PERQ, well, I expect to have to write the software myself, but I can still do it. If Sellam wants to use his Apple ][ (and can therefore read disks that neither the PC or the PERQ can read) then he can do that. > >Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the > >format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on > >whatever machine I have access to. > > Yeah, like you're really going to get full documentation for that > CatWeasel card! Actually, I was under the impression that the programming interface was docuemtned!. I may not care to use the card due to lack of hardware info, but that is not the same as saying that the card shouldn't be used, and that any archiver format I come up with will delibrately exclude the Catweasel. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 16:43:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <200408101459.KAA14373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 10, 4 10:53:39 am Message-ID: > > > Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many > > versions, including third party and public domain OSs. > > Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't > think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely public domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088. -tony From soheilasoheil at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 17:24:40 2004 From: soheilasoheil at yahoo.com (Soheila Soheil) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: NExt Station for sale Message-ID: <20040810222440.65942.qmail@web13425.mail.yahoo.com> Excellent condition. Looks new. If interested, please send email to foadamoon@yahoo.com. Price $475. we can email you pictures: NeXTstation Color 32MB Memory 406 MB Hard Disk Drive and Floppy disk drive Keyboard + Mouse + Sound Box + CD ROM NeXTstation (MegaPixel) 21-inch Color Monitor SCSI port A and B serial ports DSP port Display port Printer port Twisted-pair and thin-wire Ethernet port Miniphone jack for headphones Left and right line-out jacks NeXT Mach 3.3 (Processor 68040) All original Software CDs Network and System Administration Manual User’s Reference Manual NEXTSTEP User’s Guide NEXTSTEP Object-Oriented Programming and The Objective C Language Setup and Tutorials Manual Applications Manual Service Guide NeXSTEP Programming (Simson L. Garfinkel, Michael K. Mahoney) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 10 17:34:55 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: public domain v free (was: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040810114522.F89964@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people > > Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" > > owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for > > free. > > Yes, "public domain" (relinquishment of copyright ownership) is free. > But free is not necessarily public domain. There do exist some > things that are copyrighted, but available to the public for free. > > Consider Richard Stallman. None of his stuff is public domain. > He retains copyright on it so that he can make restrictions on it. > > Consider Shareware. Every shareware author who understands > the laws retains copyright. One major reason is that there > have been numerous cases of others hijacking the revenue stream! > Sometimes it is a case where somebody makes enhancements, and > then directs the donations/fees/payments to themselves - > consider S.E.A v Phil Katz. > Other times, there have been people who have done nothing more > than change the splash screen to redirect the money. I am not so sure about that, Fred. Consider the case of the shareware author who has 'withdrawn his product from shareware', (someone likened it 'unringing the bell') declined to accept further registrations, or provide support for the product, yet made no active effort to remove it from general availability. Has he not essentially abandoned his rights to any control over usage of the product? The law has a principle Laches which implies that if you wait too long to defend your rights you have essentially lost them. There is also the principal of Estoppel which is essentially 'you waited too long, quit your bitching'! - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 18:04:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: Ok, instead of all the unproductive bickering over semantics (most of which is illogical...come on, admit it) I'd rather we actually discuss developing further an open-source, public domain, free (in every sense of the word) standard for archiving data media of all types (magentic, paper, or otherwise). This is basically going to be a continuation of what we've already discussed on the list, and what Hans and I have discussed in private. First, let's start with the goals. The format should be: 1) Well Documented (with such documentation actively preserved in all four corners of the globe and beyond) 2) Not constrained to any particular hardware 3) Be inclusive of all physical (and logical?) manner of recording media 4) Be implementable on even the simplest architectures (because the original media source will in many cases have to be read on the hardware it is connected to) 5) Open source, public domain, etc. (although a copyright may be held if it makes sense to do so) 6) Adaptable, expandable, revisable (for future extensions) 7) Text-based and storable in commonly accessible character formats (i.e. a suitable subset of Unicode, i.e. ASCII) 8) Allow for the representation of media in either logical or physical (raw bit stream) formats This is a good start. Someone please continue adding to the definition. I will establish a special session at the next VCF (November 6-7) where we can commence a committee for formalizing this standard and getting it recognized internationally in all the various relevant groups (i.e. ANSI or ISO/IEC). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 18:51:59 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Osborne / TRS-80 III wanted for British TV show- can you help? Message-ID: <20040810235159.35462.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> This was posted on oldcomputers.net comments page, can anyone help? Please email rosy thomas directly: rosy.thomas@talkbackthames.tv hello, we are working on a comedy series over here at talkback - basically a pastiche of the old British technology programme "Tomorrow's World" specifically circa 1980. A script is currently being written which includes a fictitious military super computer - interest has been expressed in the stylistic beauty of the Osbourne 1 and also the TRS-80 model III... I expect you would not be interested in hiring your computers to our production but I wonder if you could advise me of any easy way to get hold of such rare computers for our temporary purposes. We do have full insurance public liability and otherwise. We start filming on the 13th September for 6 weeks. I will attempt e-bay and also explore all your links but if you could advise me in any way I would be very grateful. If you are interested there is information about our first series on the www.bbc.co.uk. This was a slightly different format in that it was a pastiche on the open university programmes of the late seventies. Thanking you in anticipation for any help you can give me. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 10 19:07:03 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project References: <200408101459.KAA14373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16665.25383.619358.113056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> > Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many > >> versions, including third party and public domain OSs. >> >> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I >> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even >> for values Tony> Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely Tony> public domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be Tony> claimed to include the OS. I assume there was/is a version of Tony> the 8088. I think there are some old OSs that are public domain, presumably unintentionally, because no copyright assertion was made at the time. (That was when you had to do so to retain copyright -- something that as I understand it is no longer true.) CDC's first 6000 operating system COS (Chippewa OS) is apparently an example of this. paul From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 10 19:17:14 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <20040811001712.DGRR26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Deos ftp://ftp.funet.fi/ still exist? That used to be a good place for >> Commodore schematics and technical info, > >Yup, FUNET's still alive. for the CBM stuff. >There's also a web-based version at . Thanks guys - that helps a lot. +++ Does anyone have "inside" information on exactly what the PET firmware does when it starts up? I am still working on the same pair of SuperPET 9000's (one works, one does not). Both machines have been stripped to just the base 6502 board. The "bad" machine plays it's tune and clears the screen - then appears to hang. (If you reset it with the monitor warmed up, you can see the screen fill with "garbage" and then clear - just like the working one). Code appears to be running: - If I remove the KERNAL rom, the startup beep does not occur, and the screen never initializes, so it looks like this ROM is executing. - After it appears to "hang", the code still seems to be running. Looking at the 74LS154 decoder which shows accesses within 4k boundaries, I see lots of accesses to 0xxx (probably page0 RAM), no accesses to intervening locations and lots of access to the ROM's, which follow a clearly identifiable pattern. Removing any ROM prevents this from happening, with the machine just "flailing" until it gets a HLT - so it looks like it may actually be running ROM code. - I can see accesses to the keyboard scanner. On the working machine, after accessing all ROM's as BASIC starts (and prints it welcome message), it settles into a keyboard scan which appears to exist within the KERNAL and EDIT rom's - the BASIC ROM's are not accessed unless some function is activated. The non-working machine appears to hang during the phase where it is accessing all ROM's - it continues to do this indefinately. It looks like the system is hanging during the initialization of BASIC - it never prints the welcome message (hangs with blank screen). So far I have been unable to determine what it is doing exactly - any info on the startup sequence would be MOST appreciated! I have verified that the ROM's contain exactly the same code as the other machine (I've seen several PET's fail with bad ROM's, however this does not appear to be the case here). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 10 19:17:19 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <16665.25999.641479.474123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> Ok, instead of all the unproductive bickering over semantics Vintage> (most of which is illogical...come on, admit it) I'd rather Vintage> we actually discuss developing further an open-source, Vintage> public domain, free (in every sense of the word) standard Vintage> for archiving data media of all types (magentic, paper, or Vintage> otherwise). Vintage> This is basically going to be a continuation of what we've Vintage> already discussed on the list, and what Hans and I have Vintage> discussed in private. Vintage> First, let's start with the goals. When you say "archiving" what span of time do you mean? A year? A decade? A century? Longer? You will get completely different answers depending on how you answer that question. (See also www.longnow.org) paul From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 10 19:40:39 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Pristine systems at scrappers... Message-ID: <200408101740.39281.lbickley@bickleywest.com> One of our local scrappers called me up today about some systems they pulled from a working site. I went and looked at them and they must have been in a controlled environment - they are all in excellent to pristine condition. They will be scrapped shortly - in fact, by the time I got there (two hours after the call) - one big Teradyne was already stripped :-( If you are interested in any of these, let me know immediately and what price you'd like to offer for the equipment. The equipment is in the San Francisco Bay Area - shipping on some of this stuff would be costly (RA82/VAX, Sequents, Teradyne, IBM 3720).... Several VAX 3100 (M76 and M38) Several Digital BA42s with RZ55, RZ56 and RZ57 Digital RA82/VAX 3600 Sequent (1) S2000/500 and (1) S2000/200 Teradyne S16 (?) IBM Power 530 IBM 3720 Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 10 19:43:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <200408110043.RAA04188@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Dave A common failure item in these old machines is the RAM. Any failure of the RAM makes things like subroutines fail quickly. Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >>> Deos ftp://ftp.funet.fi/ still exist? That used to be a good place for >>> Commodore schematics and technical info, >> >>Yup, FUNET's still alive. for the CBM stuff. >>There's also a web-based version at . > >Thanks guys - that helps a lot. > >+++ > >Does anyone have "inside" information on exactly what the PET firmware does when >it starts up? > >I am still working on the same pair of SuperPET 9000's (one works, one does not). >Both machines have been stripped to just the base 6502 board. > >The "bad" machine plays it's tune and clears the screen - then appears to hang. >(If you reset it with the monitor warmed up, you can see the screen fill with >"garbage" and then clear - just like the working one). > >Code appears to be running: > > - If I remove the KERNAL rom, the startup beep does not occur, and the screen > never initializes, so it looks like this ROM is executing. > > - After it appears to "hang", the code still seems to be running. Looking at > the 74LS154 decoder which shows accesses within 4k boundaries, I see lots of > accesses to 0xxx (probably page0 RAM), no accesses to intervening locations > and lots of access to the ROM's, which follow a clearly identifiable pattern. > Removing any ROM prevents this from happening, with the machine just "flailing" > until it gets a HLT - so it looks like it may actually be running ROM code. > > - I can see accesses to the keyboard scanner. > >On the working machine, after accessing all ROM's as BASIC starts (and prints it >welcome message), it settles into a keyboard scan which appears to exist within >the KERNAL and EDIT rom's - the BASIC ROM's are not accessed unless some function >is activated. > >The non-working machine appears to hang during the phase where it is accessing all >ROM's - it continues to do this indefinately. > >It looks like the system is hanging during the initialization of BASIC - it never >prints the welcome message (hangs with blank screen). > >So far I have been unable to determine what it is doing exactly - any info on the >startup sequence would be MOST appreciated! > >I have verified that the ROM's contain exactly the same code as the other machine >(I've seen several PET's fail with bad ROM's, however this does not appear to be >the case here). > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 19:50:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <16665.25999.641479.474123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > When you say "archiving" what span of time do you mean? A year? A > decade? A century? Longer? Is forever too ambitious? :) The idea is to create a standard for representing the data, not a medium. Media with near-infinite longevity will be the next undertaking :) > (See also www.longnow.org) Is there a specific section you want to refer me to? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tyger69 at chartermi.net Tue Aug 10 19:53:36 2004 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: monitor program References: <200408100008.i7A08VbZ070628@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004301c47f3d$a4f70040$0600a8c0@cablemodem> "Joe" wrote: Unless you use a Zenith PC. They came with a monitor/debugger built into ROM. Just use CNTL-ALT-INSERT to bring it up. OTOH I've had very good results just using Debug with MS-DOS. Joe I've always liked the monitor in my Columbia MPC series better than Zenith's. It allows easy access to the disks, sector-by-sector, for (R)eads or (W)rites. The Zenith makes you jump through hoops to accomplish the same thing. BTW, I never got into DEBUG much, but my all-time favorite program is DDT under CP/M. --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 19:56:45 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Business Computer System In-Reply-To: <001d01c47f25$394a3aa0$0600a8c0@cablemodem> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810205645.0093a980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I wonder if they meant a model 16? Joe At 05:58 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: >While reading through an old (1979) book, I came across a reference to a Tandy 10 system (complete with picture), as an example of "turnkey systems". Judging from the date of publication, I presume this is some precursor to the TRS-80, but I have not been able to dig up any more info on it. Has anyone else ever heard of such a computer before, and could you share your info, please? > >--T > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 10 20:02:32 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408110102.SAA04199@clulw009.amd.com> Hi There is a format that has been used with the H8/89 hard sectored disk called SVD. I like it in some ways but not in others. Things I like: It is in a human readable format Sectors are separated by white space and/or comments comments can be added Things I don't like: Format is octal ( I prefer hexadecimal ) Header contains various bit of information that are not decoded in a human readable form( still encoded as octal values ). I use a straight binary image file to transfer disk images to my H8's and H89. Converting the SVD format to one that I can use is trivial. The issue of reading the actual file from an image and placing that into a file is another issue. Each disk system uses a different directory structure and allocation method. How this could be simply encoded into the image files is more than I'd like to think about unless one would just settle for a textual description in the comment space. As an example, the H8/89 hard sectored disk have a volume number encoded in the header field ( that isn't part of the data ). The directory and allocation tables are pointed to by specific locations on track 0. They are not at specific locations. Other issues that might be a problem are things like the actual encoding methods used. Not all data is in nice 8 bit chunks ( my Nicolet does 20 bit chunks ). Inter leaving is usually not a great issue since it often only effects speed but it might be important. Dwight >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> Ok, instead of all the unproductive bickering over semantics > Vintage> (most of which is illogical...come on, admit it) I'd rather > Vintage> we actually discuss developing further an open-source, > Vintage> public domain, free (in every sense of the word) standard > Vintage> for archiving data media of all types (magentic, paper, or > Vintage> otherwise). > > Vintage> This is basically going to be a continuation of what we've > Vintage> already discussed on the list, and what Hans and I have > Vintage> discussed in private. > > Vintage> First, let's start with the goals. > >When you say "archiving" what span of time do you mean? A year? A >decade? A century? Longer? > >You will get completely different answers depending on how you answer >that question. > >(See also www.longnow.org) > > paul > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 10 20:04:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: monitor program In-Reply-To: <004301c47f3d$a4f70040$0600a8c0@cablemodem> References: <200408100008.i7A08VbZ070628@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040810210455.0091e4a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I had forgotten that the Columbia had a monitor. I haven't touched one of those since my buddy sold his in 1985. Joe At 08:53 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: >"Joe" wrote: > > Unless you use a Zenith PC. They came with a monitor/debugger built into >ROM. Just use CNTL-ALT-INSERT to bring it up. OTOH I've had very good >results just using Debug with MS-DOS. > > Joe > >I've always liked the monitor in my Columbia MPC series better than >Zenith's. It allows easy access to the disks, sector-by-sector, for (R)eads >or (W)rites. The Zenith makes you jump through hoops to accomplish the same >thing. >BTW, I never got into DEBUG much, but my all-time favorite program is DDT >under CP/M. > >--T > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 20:12:09 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Business Computer System In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040810205645.0093a980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040810205645.0093a980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040810180550.S2386@shell.lmi.net> It was NOT a predecessor to the TRS-80, nor a model 2/12/16. While Radio Shack was peddling the TRS-80, Tandy was trying to peddle some "business" "mini-computer"s. IIRC, it was built into a desk. I don't know where you had to go to actually SEE one (I don't think that even the Radio Shack "computer center"s had them), but Tandy did have a catalog for them. I have no idea what the specs were. LATER, Radio Shack came out with the model 2 (Z80, with 8" drives, and CP/M capable through third parties, such as Pickles and Trout or Lifeboat). Then the models 12 and 16 (Z80 AND 68000!) On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > I wonder if they meant a model 16? > > Joe > > > At 05:58 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: > >While reading through an old (1979) book, I came across a reference to a > Tandy 10 system (complete with picture), as an example of "turnkey > systems". Judging from the date of publication, I presume this is some > precursor to the TRS-80, but I have not been able to dig up any more info > on it. Has anyone else ever heard of such a computer before, and could you > share your info, please? > > > >--T > > > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 10 20:22:24 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > > > When you say "archiving" what span of time do you mean? A year? A > > decade? A century? Longer? > > Is forever too ambitious? :) > > The idea is to create a standard for representing the data, not a medium. > Media with near-infinite longevity will be the next undertaking :) > > > (See also www.longnow.org) > > Is there a specific section you want to refer me to? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > Here is an example of a society that preserves media on the Amiga platform (complete images including the copy protection as used by the developer). http://www.caps-project.org/ They have spent allot of time deciphering custom disk formats and saving all of the information digitally so it can be reproduced exactly at a later date. TZ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 20:25:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Osborne / TRS-80 III wanted for British TV show- can you help? In-Reply-To: <20040810235159.35462.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040810235159.35462.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040810182336.R2386@shell.lmi.net> For "old British technology...circa 1980", wouldn't an Amstrad be more appropriate? On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, steven wrote: > This was posted on oldcomputers.net comments page, can > anyone help? > > Please email rosy thomas directly: > rosy.thomas@talkbackthames.tv > > > hello, > we are working on a comedy series over here at > talkback - basically a pastiche of the old British > technology programme "Tomorrow's World" specifically > circa 1980. A script is currently being written which > includes a fictitious military super computer - > interest has been expressed in the stylistic beauty of > the Osbourne 1 and also the TRS-80 model III... I > expect you would not be interested in hiring your > computers to our production but I wonder if you could > advise me of any easy way to get hold of such rare > computers for our temporary purposes. We do have full > insurance public liability and otherwise. We start > filming on the 13th September for 6 weeks. I will > attempt e-bay and also explore all your links but if > you could advise me in any way I would be very > grateful. If you are interested there is information > about our first series on the www.bbc.co.uk. This was > a slightly different format in that it was a pastiche > on the open university programmes of the late > seventies. Thanking you in anticipation for any help > you can give me. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 10 20:45:44 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <20040811014543.DZIK13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 17:43 10/08/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Dave > A common failure item in these old machines is the RAM. >Any failure of the RAM makes things like subroutines fail >quickly. >Dwight Yeah - that did occur to me - hard to diagnose for certain - all the RAM's are soldered in. I did remove and socket the ROM's today - so with an EPROM emulator I can put boot code in fairly easily - anyone know what the minimum I need to do to setup the video and any other essential hardware is? Also a memory MAP would be handy (I think I saw one in the Archive - I'll look, however if anyone knows where the RAM limits are and where Video memory is - could save me sime time. If I can figure out where the RAM is, and how to write to the screen, I can boot a small RAM test in the Kernal ROM space. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 10 21:03:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) In-Reply-To: <20040811014543.DZIK13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040811014543.DZIK13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040811020320.GB14654@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 09:45:44PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I did remove and socket the ROM's today - so with an EPROM emulator I can put > boot code in fairly easily - anyone know what the minimum I need to do to setup > the video and any other essential hardware is? If you want the keyboard to work, you'll need to set up one of the 6520s. If you just want to see stuff on the screen, there's a table in the ROMs that is loaded into the 6545 CTRC. There are two sets of values, one for 4032 and one for 8032 (different ROMs). The other chips are used for IEEE-488, cassette control, and the user port. No initialization for your purposes required AFAIK. > Also a memory MAP would be > handy (I think I saw one in the Archive - I'll look, however if anyone knows > where the RAM limits are and where Video memory is - could save me sime time. RAM is $0000-$7FFF on a 32K PET. Video memory starts at $8000. ROM space starts at $9000 and goes to $FFFF except for a chunk in the $Exxx block that is for I/O chips (6520, 6522...). Note that depending on how your machine is equipped, it is likely that there are a couple of empty ROM blocks at the bottom of ROM space. On a BASIC 4 machine, ISTR $9000 and $A000 were open for user-added firmware (BASICaid, BASIC Toolkit, TMON, WordPro, etc.). Mine were always full. :-) > If I can figure out where the RAM is, and how to write to the screen, I can > boot a small RAM test in the Kernal ROM space. Once you extract the table and load the 6545, you should be able to sling bytes at the screen starting at $8000. Remember that "POKE codes" are not ASCII nor PETSCII, they are character codes from the chargen ROM (not accessible to 6502 memory space). There should be some docs on this on funet. As an example, though, while you might "PRINT CHR$(65)" to get an 'A' on the screen, you'd "POKE 32768,1" to get that 'A' to appear in the upper left corner of the screen. As for a memory map... $0000-$00FF is zero-page... 99% of it is allocated when running BASIC. $0100-$01FF is the stack. $0200-$03FF is used by various things like line edit buffers, cassette buffers, 8032 screen editor variables, etc. BASIC RAM starts at $0400 with a zero byte, then your program goes from $0401 up. At this level of detail, all PETs are the same. What changes from model to model is exactly which zero page locations are used for exactly which functions, etc. Note that unlike the VIC-20 or C-64, you cannot move screen RAM around by twiddling a video chip register... the video is fixed on PETs. -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2004 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.8 F (-54.3 C) Windchill -106.6 F (-77 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.6 kts Grid 348 Barometer 682.5 mb (10532 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 10 21:06:10 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: <200408110102.SAA04199@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002001c47f47$c5b49bd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dwight wrote... > Things I don't like: > Format is octal ( I prefer hexadecimal ) Blasphemy!! *Grin* From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 10 21:22:12 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408110222.TAA01706@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >Dwight wrote... >> Things I don't like: >> Format is octal ( I prefer hexadecimal ) >Blasphemy!! *Grin* > Hi It was my mothers fault. She would never let me play with the smart kids. Dwight From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 10 21:49:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: DOS looking like a mainframe project In-Reply-To: <200408101605.18284.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200408101605.18284.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <0B35F3D2-EB41-11D8-873A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 10, 2004, at 1:05 PM, Mike Kenzie wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Sunday 08 August 2004 23:12, Ron Hudson wrote: >> Ok, Here's another pet project of mine.. I Have a simple DOS6.22 >> installed in one of my laptops, and >> I want to make it look like as much like an IBM (it's an IBM laptop >> too >> btw) mainframe as possible. I am working >> on a vauge memory from a job over 10 years ago when I had an account >> on >> the R&D little mainframe. > > I had a copy of ISPF for the PC. The lattest version is now window > based. It's been a while, I forget what ISPF is, the editor? > > There is also the hercules emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/ I have hercules for my iBook... I think it is still installed... I have not yet gotten to getting an OS, I'm not even sure how to. > - -- > Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 > Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks > > Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFBGSp+LPrIaE/xBZARAmzjAJ0aPRTbWJdUnvDoM43kuPrPbTAMVwCgpvGw > WACj/8DKuNHn5H4EViFPdmI= > =8GKo > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 21:52:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: RDI BriteLite IPX portable Message-ID: I've got an RDI BriteLite IPX portable. Neat machine. Does anyone know if this has a color or monochrome LCD display? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tyger69 at chartermi.net Tue Aug 10 22:01:25 2004 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Tandy Message-ID: <000d01c47f4f$7eafa240$0600a8c0@cablemodem> Someone said: Tandy was trying to peddle some "business" "mini-computer"s. IIRC, it was built into a desk. I don't know where you had to go to actually SEE one (I don't think that even the Radio Shack "computer center"s had them), but Tandy did have a catalog for them. Yup! That's the animal, all right...built into a desk. I can post the picture on a webpage if anyone is interested in eyeballin' it. --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 21:57:26 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project References: Message-ID: <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely public > domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include > the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088. Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it. Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block, write disk block I think is all that is needed. Ben. PS did the Jupiter Ace ever have floppy disk? From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 22:02:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408110102.SAA04199@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > There is a format that has been used with the H8/89 > hard sectored disk called SVD. I like it in some ways but not > in others. Do you have a good description of the SVD format somewhere? I'm sure it has some useful information. > The issue of reading the actual file from an image and placing > that into a file is another issue. Each disk system uses a > different directory structure and allocation method. How this > could be simply encoded into the image files is more than I'd like to > think about unless one would just settle for a textual description > in the comment space. The idea is to make a representation of the raw bytes of the media, segregated with markups into tracks, sectors, etc. (or whatever is applicable for the particular media). See my paper here for an idea of what I'm talking about: http://www.vintage.org/content.php?id=004 Scroll down about halfway to the inset with the HTML-looking markup stuff. > As an example, the H8/89 hard sectored disk have a volume number > encoded in the header field ( that isn't part of the data ). The > directory and allocation tables are pointed to by specific locations > on track 0. They are not at specific locations. All that data would be preserved in the format that I have in mind, since the raw bytes of the disk would be preserved. > Other issues that might be a problem are things like the actual encoding > methods used. Not all data is in nice 8 bit chunks ( my Nicolet does > 20 bit chunks ). Inter leaving is usually not a great issue since > it often only effects speed but it might be important. Exactly. This is something that will be addressed in the standard. You should be able to specify the byte/word length, interleave, encoding format, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 22:07:44 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:03 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Here is an example of a society that preserves media on the Amiga platform > (complete images including the copy protection as used by the developer). > > http://www.caps-project.org/ > > They have spent allot of time deciphering custom disk formats and saving all > of the information digitally so it can be reproduced exactly at a later > date. That's a very cool project. The archives they are making could be converted into the specification I'm talking about by writing a translation program to take the raw bit images they are producing and convert it into the specification markup language. Quite easily. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 22:13:33 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040810201128.N2386@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O > supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a > version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it. > Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block, > write disk block I think is all that is needed. If that's all that you need, we can do it trivially with calls to the BIOS ROM at Int16h, 16h, 10h, 13h, and 13h. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 22:12:34 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project References: <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040810201128.N2386@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41198EA2.7080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > >>Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O >>supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a >>version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it. >>Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block, >>write disk block I think is all that is needed. > > > If that's all that you need, we can do it trivially with calls > to the BIOS ROM at Int16h, 16h, 10h, 13h, and 13h. > But then again is not the whole point is it not to bypass the BIOS? Also I suspect fig-forth is limited to the tiny model on the 8088 with about 32k for the basic system. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 22:18:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Here is an example of a society that preserves media on the Amiga platform > > (complete images including the copy protection as used by the developer). > > > > http://www.caps-project.org/ > > > > They have spent allot of time deciphering custom disk formats and saving all > > of the information digitally so it can be reproduced exactly at a later > > date. > > That's a very cool project. The archives they are making could be > converted into the specification I'm talking about by writing a > translation program to take the raw bit images they are producing and > convert it into the specification markup language. Quite easily. Very interesting: http://www.caps-project.org/glossary.php?term=ipf IPF (Interchangeable Preservation Format) Glossary: 100, Last Updated: 2004-02-20 IPF stands for Interchangeable Preservation Format, and is the file format we use to preserve content. It is a name for what is we use to store (currently Amiga) floppy disk images. It is abstract for very good reasons: It is not meant just for the Amiga: The image format was designed to be used for anything, and as such, it is possible for any platform to have its media supported. In fact, some of the track formats used for Amiga copy protection are actually PC/Atari anyway. It is not just for disks: Any type of digital media can be contained by the format. Currently it is used for disk images and ROM files, but in the future it may possibly be used for CDROMs and information contained in "dongle" protections. The underlying file format has many similarities to the IFF (Interchangeable File Format) standard on the Amiga, which was a very forward-thinking format. The same techniques are used today in other file formats such as PNG. -- This is pretty much what I'm proposing. I wonder where the description of their format is though? I can't find it anywhere on their website. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 10 22:28:23 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <00bd01c47f53$41cf1500$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Here is an example of a society that preserves media on the Amiga platform > > (complete images including the copy protection as used by the developer). > > > > http://www.caps-project.org/ > > > > They have spent allot of time deciphering custom disk formats and saving all > > of the information digitally so it can be reproduced exactly at a later > > date. > > That's a very cool project. The archives they are making could be > converted into the specification I'm talking about by writing a > translation program to take the raw bit images they are producing and > convert it into the specification markup language. Quite easily. > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- The images they made can be run on WinUAE, and there is talk of using the recently announced Catweasel V 4 for dumping the images back to floppy. They have also started looking at doing the same preservation on the Atari ST line, which ST people have problems with for some reason (namely Amiga people doing the standards). Without support from the people of the different platforms it would be hard to get a universal program to work. While TOSEC.org has done a good job of cataloging image files from multiple systems, most of their archives are for programs that have been cracked, while CAPs is trying to preserver the programs as they were sold with the copy protection intact. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 10 22:32:39 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <00cc01c47f53$da5604a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:18 PM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard . > > I wonder where the description of their format is though? I can't find it > anywhere on their website. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > http://www.caps-project.org/download.shtml The API and assorted documents are all there. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 22:35:38 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040810203246.Y2386@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > http://www.caps-project.org/ > I wonder where the description of their format is though? I can't find it > anywhere on their website. Did you try: http://www.caps-project.org/wip-jul-2002.shtml From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 10 23:10:49 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> At 08:22 PM 8/10/2004, Teo Zenios wrote: >Here is an example of a society that preserves media on the Amiga platform >(complete images including the copy protection as used by the developer). >http://www.caps-project.org/ >They have spent allot of time deciphering custom disk formats and saving all >of the information digitally so it can be reproduced exactly at a later >date. Astounding! Will that computer never die? And I say that as someone who Believed, '85-92. I'm tempted to say that we should leave copy protection hacks out of the spec for now, but if it was extensible, that would be great. - John From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 23:18:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <00bd01c47f53$41cf1500$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > The images they made can be run on WinUAE, and there is talk of using the > recently announced Catweasel V 4 for dumping the images back to floppy. > They have also started looking at doing the same preservation on the Atari > ST line, which ST people have problems with for some reason (namely Amiga > people doing the standards). Not surprising. I wish people could not act like infants all the time. Another benefit of creating a universal standard is that it takes platform wars out of the equation. > Without support from the people of the different platforms it would be hard > to get a universal program to work. While TOSEC.org has done a good job of > cataloging image files from multiple systems, most of their archives are for > programs that have been cracked, while CAPs is trying to preserver the > programs as they were sold with the copy protection intact. Platforms do not figure into the specification I have in mind. It would be a specification. It could then be implemented on whatever platform anyone cared to. As long as the various applications follow the spec, images will be able to be stored where ever. Apple ][ users could store Amiga images if they wanted to. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at redrouteone.net Tue Aug 10 23:19:12 2004 From: eric at redrouteone.net (Eric Moody) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Beg, Borrow, or Steal OpenVMS media. Message-ID: <9E9931B61C3E74468AD7682A0C699376CB2B@redoctober.redrouteone.local> Hello, I recently got an Alphaserver 2000 4/200 and I want to run OpenVMS on it. I have signed up for the Hobbyist program but I do not have the money to purchase the media. If someone has a set that I can borrow or get a copy of I would be very grateful. Thanks, Eric Moody From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 23:26:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, John Foust wrote: > Astounding! Will that computer never die? And I say that > as someone who Believed, '85-92. The Amiga is still going strong in some circles. More power to them. > I'm tempted to say that we should leave copy protection > hacks out of the spec for now, but if it was extensible, > that would be great. Yes, copy protection will defintely be able to be described naturally in the specification I have in mind. The spec should be able to define several layers of bit storage: logical (files, directories, etc.), byte (e.g. tracks, sectors), and raw (bit streams). In this way, copy protection schemes can be preserved by storing the image in the raw format. This will of course have to be thought out, and it may not even be included in the first revision of the spec, but as I declared originally, the spec will be extensible. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 10 23:38:16 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408110439.AAA22356@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I'm tempted to say that we should leave copy protection hacks out of >> the spec for now, but if it was extensible, that would be great. > Yes, copy protection will defintely be able to be described naturally > in the specification I have in mind. The spec should be able to > define several layers of bit storage: logical (files, directories, > etc.), byte (e.g. tracks, sectors), and raw (bit streams). In this > way, copy protection schemes can be preserved by storing the image in > the raw format. Some copy protection schemes. What about copy-protection schemes that work by damaging the media to the point where it doesn't _have_ a bit stream at a particular place? As you say, maybe not in V1.0, but something to keep in mind. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 10 23:44:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> Message-ID: <00dd01c47f5d$d2fb30e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > At 08:22 PM 8/10/2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > >Here is an example of a society that preserves media on the Amiga platform > >(complete images including the copy protection as used by the developer). > >http://www.caps-project.org/ > >They have spent allot of time deciphering custom disk formats and saving all > >of the information digitally so it can be reproduced exactly at a later > >date. > > Astounding! Will that computer never die? And I say that > as someone who Believed, '85-92. > > I'm tempted to say that we should leave copy protection > hacks out of the spec for now, but if it was extensible, > that would be great. > > - John > > I went from a C64 to a 286/12 PC in the late 80's. In the last 2 years I have acquired 3 Amigas (A500, A1200,A2000), they are interesting systems. Backing up discs or programs that have been 'cracked' leads to problems when you try to run update patches to old programs or when the 'cracker' did a bad job on the program and it doesn't work like it should. I never seen a crowd into preserving their machines like the Amiga crowd. Examples: The Largest Amiga hardware reference on the net: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/ Amiga Hall of Light, database of Amiga games showing box scans and in game screens (very well done): http://hol.abime.net/ CAPS Preserving the original media: http://www.caps-project.org/ Aminet, the largest internet based collection of freeware/shareware/GPL Amiga software http://ftp.uni-bremen.de/aminet/ WinUAE emulator for Amiga systems: http://www.winuae.net/ WHD Load where people got together and reworked the older software so that it ran on newer hardware, fixed bugs from the original programs, and allowed the program to run from the HD (instead of flipping floppies as needed): http://www.whdload.de/ Plus don't forget the active forums and other websites supporting a platform where the manufacturer died 10 years ago. If I want to add something to my collection the original media, manuals, box, and working disks are what I look for, a perfect image will keep me happy until I run into the original (or have the money to buy it if its is rare). Since your going to the trouble of preserving something you might as well preserve it exactly as it was released. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 10 23:40:31 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408110445.AAA22388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> In fact, I've seen almost [no PCs] that didn't work. > You nave been _very lucky_ Quite so. I run two peecees and a lot of others (at least a dozen, of which some three or four are on 24x7). One of the peecees is too new to the house to contribute significantly to the statistics. But the other accounts for about half the hardware failures I have had. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 10 23:53:55 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <00e601c47f5f$3497f0d0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:18 AM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > Platforms do not figure into the specification I have in mind. It would > be a specification. It could then be implemented on whatever platform > anyone cared to. As long as the various applications follow the spec, > images will be able to be stored where ever. Apple ][ users could store > Amiga images if they wanted to. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Specifications are nice, but unless you get the people who still have the hardware and software to join in it will get nowhere. The problem is getting the people to follow the standards and image their disks, once the images have been collected you can do what you want with them and not worry about the platform they came from. CAPS software uses an Amiga 1200 platform to get images from the original disks, Commodore 64 users can grab images from a 1541/1571 drive connected to a PC running DOS connected to the drive with a xe1541 cable and some software. As far as I know there is no hardware that can precisely read all of the different disk formats and sizes let alone deal with all copy protection methods (such as laser hole in the media itself). You still need the original hardware of the platform it ran on to get the images.. so you have to get the people of the different platforms behind you (good luck). From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 10 23:59:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408110439.AAA22356@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, der Mouse wrote: > What about copy-protection schemes that work by damaging the media to > the point where it doesn't _have_ a bit stream at a particular place? That's been considered as well. There will simply be a header that describes the error that occured at that particular point on the media (either a specific hardware code or other). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Aug 11 00:08:45 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> Message-ID: <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:10:49PM -0500, John Foust wrote: > Astounding! Will that computer never die? And I say that > as someone who Believed, '85-92. I still enjoy playing the odd Amiga game (Black Crypt being one of the best ones never ported to another machine, 'though the color version of Larn is kinda nice compared to the vt100-compatible version that's available for most UNIX machines). > I'm tempted to say that we should leave copy protection > hacks out of the spec for now, but if it was extensible, > that would be great. Extensible is good... one of the advantages of the Amiga IFF structure they chose to emulate/use as a starting point, is that according to the spec, the structure, tag formats, checksums, are all described in advance; what is malleable is that if your application doesn't understand a tag, you are obligated to ignore it, not puke 'cause it's in an unknown format. PICTs are similar in that regard, a structured collection of (binary) records. All programs know the structure, but not all programs can interpret all record types. These days, of course, XML can serve much the same function, plus have the advantage of being printable. You could end up with files that could never fit on the medium they describe, but unless you are trying to do 100% of your computing on classic platforms with tiny media, that shouldn't be a problem (and even if you are... you _could_ fit a 1541 description file on a 1581-compatible floppy, so even the C=64 could create and restore these files to and from real media, given the right setup). One suggestion... for the data portion of sectors/tracks/etc... let's spec in a run-length encoding scheme so large portions of unused media compress down really tightly (lots of zeros, or in the case of a real 1541 disc, lots of hex 0x01s). If it's XMLish, it could look like '01' or some such. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2004 05:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.4 F (-54.2 C) Windchill -97.8 F (-72.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.1 kts Grid 019 Barometer 683.9 mb (10480. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From nospam212-classiccmp at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 00:32:20 2004 From: nospam212-classiccmp at yahoo.com (nospam212-classiccmp@yahoo.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Business Computer System In-Reply-To: <20040810180550.S2386@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040811053220.78094.qmail@web81007.mail.yahoo.com> I have a flyer I picked up for it back in the days when Tandy was selling these. The picture shows a desk with what looks like a terminal of some sort built into the top. To one side is a large box which appears to have 2 8" floppy drives where you'd find the drawers of the desk. The specs are listed as 8080 cpu, 48k memory, 24x80 video display, 2 dual sided diskette drives, extended version of Dartmouth BASIC, ADOS Disk Operating System all for $9,995.00. Fortran compiler for $300.00 and several printer options are also listed. Some other details listed but that's the main part. I picked this up at a Radio Shack Computer Center IIRC. I believe they dropped it about the time they came out with the Model II. David Fred Cisin wrote: It was NOT a predecessor to the TRS-80, nor a model 2/12/16. While Radio Shack was peddling the TRS-80, Tandy was trying to peddle some "business" "mini-computer"s. IIRC, it was built into a desk. I don't know where you had to go to actually SEE one (I don't think that even the Radio Shack "computer center"s had them), but Tandy did have a catalog for them. I have no idea what the specs were. LATER, Radio Shack came out with the model 2 (Z80, with 8" drives, and CP/M capable through third parties, such as Pickles and Trout or Lifeboat). Then the models 12 and 16 (Z80 AND 68000!) On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > I wonder if they meant a model 16? > > Joe > > > At 05:58 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: > >While reading through an old (1979) book, I came across a reference to a > Tandy 10 system (complete with picture), as an example of "turnkey > systems". Judging from the date of publication, I presume this is some > precursor to the TRS-80, but I have not been able to dig up any more info > on it. Has anyone else ever heard of such a computer before, and could you > share your info, please? > > > >--T > > > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 11 00:36:42 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <00e601c47f5f$3497f0d0$0500fea9@game> References: <00e601c47f5f$3497f0d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <4119B06A.6080103@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:18 AM > Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > > > >>Platforms do not figure into the specification I have in mind. It would >>be a specification. It could then be implemented on whatever platform >>anyone cared to. As long as the various applications follow the spec, >>images will be able to be stored where ever. Apple ][ users could store >>Amiga images if they wanted to. >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > Specifications are nice, but unless you get the people who still have the > hardware and software to join in it will get nowhere. The problem is getting > the people to follow the standards and image their disks, once the images > have been collected you can do what you want with them and not worry about > the platform they came from. CAPS software uses an Amiga 1200 platform to > get images from the original disks, Commodore 64 users can grab images from > a 1541/1571 drive connected to a PC running DOS connected to the drive with > a xe1541 cable and some software. As far as I know there is no hardware that > can precisely read all of the different disk formats and sizes let alone > deal with all copy protection methods (such as laser hole in the media > itself). You still need the original hardware of the platform it ran on to > get the images.. so you have to get the people of the different platforms > behind you (good luck). I have an Atari Mega STE, a Commodore 128D with 1541, several Amigas (but no Amiga 3.5" HD drives, dammit), an Amiga Catweasel, an AMAX-II and Mac 5.25" external drive, and 68K Macs with 800K and 1.4MB floppy drives. I have PCs with 5.25" and 3.5" drives that will do any of the PC-compatible formats. Linux, MS-DOS, DR-DOS, NetBSD, and Win32 OSs available. I also have various Alphas, VAXen and PDP-11s with RX02, RX50, RX33, and RX23 disk drives, as well as the later 2.88MB 3.5" floppy drive. Add in RS/6000s with their various 3.5" formats ("PC standard" 720K, 1.44MB and 2.88MB, right?) and an Indigo with a known-good Floptical drive. I don't write code, I don't know doodoo about floppy hardware that I didn't learn here on CC, and I'm not always real quick to get projects done, but I'm damned good at beta testing. I can break most anything, but I can always tell *how* I broke it, and I can usually tell you where and why it broke. Long-winded way to say "I wanna help!" :) Doc From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 01:38:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <00e601c47f5f$3497f0d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Specifications are nice, but unless you get the people who still have the > hardware and software to join in it will get nowhere. Well, that's part of developing a specification, isn't it? Getting buy-in is of course critical, which is why I'm going to approach this from the standpoint of creating an internationally recognized standard that has an RFC and everything. > The problem is getting > the people to follow the standards and image their disks, once the images > have been collected you can do what you want with them and not worry about > the platform they came from. Once the standard is in place then people can choose to use it or not. If not, that's their loss...their archives will have a lesser chance of being propagated, unless they get a lot of other people to do whatever it is they're doing. I would hope that people would see the value in a standard like I am proposing and use it. It's not my intention to have just another format that people can choose. No, this will be THE standard. > CAPS software uses an Amiga 1200 platform to > get images from the original disks, Commodore 64 users can grab images from > a 1541/1571 drive connected to a PC running DOS connected to the drive with > a xe1541 cable and some software. As far as I know there is no hardware that > can precisely read all of the different disk formats and sizes let alone > deal with all copy protection methods (such as laser hole in the media > itself). You still need the original hardware of the platform it ran on to > get the images.. so you have to get the people of the different platforms > behind you (good luck). Exactly. And it's not a matter of luck, but rather a matter of survival. Do you want the images of YOUR favorite platform to survive into the next decade/century/millenium? Great, use the standard. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 01:41:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > These days, of course, XML can serve much the same function, plus have > the advantage of being printable. You could end up with files that could > never fit on the medium they describe, but unless you are trying to do > 100% of your computing on classic platforms with tiny media, that shouldn't > be a problem (and even if you are... you _could_ fit a 1541 description > file on a 1581-compatible floppy, so even the C=64 could create and restore > these files to and from real media, given the right setup). Keep in mind that the standard I'm proposing is completely human readable. If it came to it and was necessary, a human could decode the image data. The idea is that the images will be stored on modern machines with very large data stores, though the standard will be simple enough to allow any computer to implement it and, providing they have enough data storage, to store the images as well. > One suggestion... for the data portion of sectors/tracks/etc... let's spec > in a run-length encoding scheme so large portions of unused media compress > down really tightly (lots of zeros, or in the case of a real 1541 disc, > lots of hex 0x01s). If it's XMLish, it could look like '01' > or some such. Totally agreed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 04:41:47 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092217306.9446.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 23:04, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The format should be: > > 1) Well Documented (with such documentation actively preserved in all four > corners of the globe and beyond) > 2) Not constrained to any particular hardware > 3) Be inclusive of all physical (and logical?) manner of recording media > 4) Be implementable on even the simplest architectures (because the > original media source will in many cases have to be read on the hardware > it is connected to) > 5) Open source, public domain, etc. (although a copyright may be held if > it makes sense to do so) > 6) Adaptable, expandable, revisable (for future extensions) > 7) Text-based and storable in commonly accessible character formats (i.e. > a suitable subset of Unicode, i.e. ASCII) > 8) Allow for the representation of media in either logical or physical > (raw bit stream) formats > Agreed with all those. Can I add some important things: o) The format should be able to note media errors (I still want to archive damaged disks whilst some data can be recovered from them) o) The format should be able to cope with hard disk images too (i.e. not make assumptions about only 1 or 2 media surfaces!) o) Aside from the archive obviously recording geometry of the source media, the following data is important per archive: who created it when it was created what hardware it was created on (at least drive model, and any protocol bridge that the drive was connected to) what the archive represents what platform / system the archive is for freeform description field (for any other notes) o) Archive format should not be tied to any particular software (i.e. no assumption is made about what utility is used to read/write the archive files) o) Each archive should record the version of the spec against which it was created. Yes, you said that yourself in point 6, but it's darn important :) I'm actually currently playing around with this sort of thing anyway, and for the human-readable side of configuration I'm favouring simple parameter = value ASCII data contained within declared sections. Currently sections are non-nestable, and I'm hoping they don't need to be as it makes things a lot cleaner; we shall see. Configuration is line-based (UNIX \n only), whitespace and case for parameter names is *not* significant (so "A Parameter", "aparameter" and "a paraM eter" are all equivalent as far as parsing's concerned - can't remember if I borrowed that idea from the apache or samba config!). Comments are supported, and yadda yadda yadda... I've only got around to defining the config for the SCSI floppy controller board to which the floppy drives are connected, so that I can read the hardware configuration from a config file - but my plan is/was to use the same config style for the floppy disk images. Disk image archive format would be seperate from the hardware of course; indeed I've got ST506 drives hooked up to various SCSI-ST506 bridge boards in old machines (Omti, Adaptec etc.) and intend to use the same archive format for those. I still like the idea of embedding the file format definition itself as commented data within each archive file - or at least a subset of it. That way in 30 years when someone comes across an archive in this format but the spec's long disappeared off the web, there's enough information within the file itself telling them how to read it. Ahh, fond memories of the days of upsetting customers because I designed everything to have a lifetime of at least decades - and they couldn't see beyond the next six months :-) cheers Jules From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 05:50:33 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <27227583.1092221433755.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi all, after reading all this morning's posts, I thought I would throw out some thoughts. XML as a readable format is a great idea. There is plenty of software available on most platforms to deal with this format. I looked at the CAPS format and in part that would be okay. I would like to throw in an idea of whatever we create as a standard actually have three sections to it. The first would be a data description and subsequent data (i.e. Data Container contains Data Items). Block size, number of blocks, and block data... The second would be a physical format description that would tell how the data description data is actually stored on whatever media is being targeted (Format Container contains Format Items). Device type (sequential, random), track, sector, virtual sector, head, bad sectors, etc would be needed and then a mapping from each Data Item to each Format Item. The third would simply be a "image file" that would simply be a sequential block of data with length and CRC that contained the Data Container and Format Container. This type of arrangement would give us a single file to send around that not only allowed for the recreation of the physical format, but also allowed for direct file access (read only of course). I suppose one could think of it as a smart library file that not only contained one or more files, but also gave physical re-creation information. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 10, 2004 7:04 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Ok, instead of all the unproductive bickering over semantics (most of which is illogical...come on, admit it) I'd rather we actually discuss developing further an open-source, public domain, free (in every sense of the word) standard for archiving data media of all types (magentic, paper, or otherwise). This is basically going to be a continuation of what we've already discussed on the list, and what Hans and I have discussed in private. First, let's start with the goals. The format should be: 1) Well Documented (with such documentation actively preserved in all four corners of the globe and beyond) 2) Not constrained to any particular hardware 3) Be inclusive of all physical (and logical?) manner of recording media 4) Be implementable on even the simplest architectures (because the original media source will in many cases have to be read on the hardware it is connected to) 5) Open source, public domain, etc. (although a copyright may be held if it makes sense to do so) 6) Adaptable, expandable, revisable (for future extensions) 7) Text-based and storable in commonly accessible character formats (i.e. a suitable subset of Unicode, i.e. ASCII) 8) Allow for the representation of media in either logical or physical (raw bit stream) formats This is a good start. Someone please continue adding to the definition. I will establish a special session at the next VCF (November 6-7) where we can commence a committee for formalizing this standard and getting it recognized internationally in all the various relevant groups (i.e. ANSI or ISO/IEC). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 11 06:53:35 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040811064639.04cc3df8@pc> At 12:08 AM 8/11/2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Extensible is good... one of the advantages of the Amiga IFF structure they >chose to emulate/use as a starting point, is that according to the spec, the >structure, tag formats, checksums, are all described in advance; what is >malleable is that if your application doesn't understand a tag, you are >obligated to ignore it, not puke 'cause it's in an unknown format. In theory. It does little good if your app depends on something that's not there, or if the truly vital bits are skipped by your appplication. >PICTs >are similar in that regard, a structured collection of (binary) records. >All programs know the structure, but not all programs can interpret all >record types. Yes, uhm, I wrote what were among the first color PICT image translators on non-Mac platforms, licensed to ASDG and NewTek for their paint programs, and another B/W version to SPC for an early version of Harvard Draw. :-) >These days, of course, XML can serve much the same function, plus have >the advantage of being printable. You could end up with files that could >never fit on the medium they describe, Yes, and after a bit of browsing on that CAPS-Amiga site, I was amazed at the XML and debugging work they've done to preserve copy protection on obscure games. They were also quite aware that their data format work would be able to record other disk formats. The site was a bit over-grown, though, and I never found the spec itself. - John From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 11 07:04:28 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics,troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <20040811120427.QWPC13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Thanks for the very useful information! >If you want the keyboard to work, you'll need to set up one of the 6520s. If >you just want to see stuff on the screen, there's a table in the ROMs that is >loaded into the 6545 CTRC. There are two sets of values, one for 4032 and one >for 8032 (different ROMs). The other chips are used for IEEE-488, cassette >control, and the user port. No initialization for your purposes required AFAIK. I checked the funet archive and found some details, however the PET "IO" document describes only the 6520's and 6522 - there is no mention of the video controller. The only other references I found to I/O addresses were obviously a disassembley, with such meaningful labels as: AE810 DS 1 AE811 DS 1 AE812 DS 1 Can you tell me where (address) the 6545 is located? I'm going to begin disassembling the Kernel ROM and see if I can figure out enough to turn on the screen - don't need keyboard (yet) - just want to be able to display some info. >Once you extract the table and load the 6545, you should be able to sling >bytes at the screen starting at $8000. Remember that "POKE codes" are not >ASCII nor PETSCII, they are character codes from the chargen ROM (not >accessible to 6502 memory space). There should be some docs on this on funet. >As an example, though, while you might "PRINT CHR$(65)" to get an 'A' on the >screen, you'd "POKE 32768,1" to get that 'A' to appear in the upper left >corner of the screen. I didn't see an obvious reference - can you give me a pointer - all I really need right now is 0-9,A-F and SPACE - I can determine these by fooling with the working machine if I have to. Btw, do anyone have (or know of) a working stand-alone monitor program which can be stuffed into the Kernel ROM position? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 07:08:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <27227583.1092221433755.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <27227583.1092221433755.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1092226101.9446.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 10:50, Steve Thatcher wrote: > Hi all, after reading all this morning's posts, I thought I would throw out some thoughts. > > XML as a readable format is a great idea. I haven't done any serious playing with XML in the last couple of years, but back when I did, my experience was that XML is not a good format for mixing human-readable and binary data within the XML structure itself. To make matters worse, the XML spec (at least at the time) did not define whether it was possible to pass several XML documents down the same data stream (or, as we'd likely need for this, XML documents mixed with raw binary). Typically, parsers of the day expected to take control of the data stream and expected it to contain one XML document only - often closing the stream themselves afterwards. I did end up writing my own parser in a couple of KB of code which was a little more flexible in data stream handling (so XML's certainly not a heavyweight format, and could likely be handled on pretty much any machine), but it would be nice to make use of off-the-shelf parsers for platforms that have them where possible. As you've also said, my initial thought for a data format was to keep human-readable config seperate from binary data. The human-readable config would contain a table of lengths/offsets for the binary data giving the actual definition. This does have the advantage that if the binary data happens to be a linear sequence of blocks (sectors in the case of a disk image) then the raw image can easily be extracted if needs be (say, to allow conversion to a different format) Personally, I'm not a fan of mixing binary data in with the human-readable parts because then there are issues of character escaping as well as the structure detracting from the readability. And if encoded binary data is used instead (say, hexadecimal representation) then there's still an issue of readability, plus the archive ends up bloated and extra CPU cycles are needed to decode data. Neither of those two approaches lend themselves to simply being able to use common command-line utilities to extract the data, either. I'm prefectly willing to be convinced, though :) > I looked at the CAPS format and in part that would be okay. I would like > to throw in an idea of whatever we create as a standard actually have > three sections to it. So, first section is all the 'fuzzy' data (author, date, version info, description etc.), second section describes the layout of the binary data (offsets, surfaces, etc.), and the third section is the raw binary data itself? If so, I'm certainly happy with that :-) One aside - what's the natural way of defining data on a GCR floppy? Do heads/sectors/tracks still make sense as an addressing mode, but it's just that the number of sectors per track varies according to the track number? Or isn't it that simple? cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 11 07:40:40 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: OT: Technical Explaination... In-Reply-To: <1092226101.9446.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Hope the group will get a kick.... Why Computers Sometimes Crash! by Dr. Seuss. (Read this to yourself aloud - it's great!) If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is interrupted at a very last resort, and the access of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an error to report. If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, and the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash, and your data is corrupted cause the index doesn't hash, then your situation's hopeless and your system's gonna crash! If the label on the cable on the table at your house, says the network is connected to the button on your mouse, but your packets want to tunnel to another protocol, that's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall. And your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss, so your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse; then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang, 'cuz sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang. When the copy on your floppy's getting sloppy in the disk, and the macro code instructions is causing unnecessary risk, then you'll have to flash the memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM, and then quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your Mom! Well, that certainly clears things up for me. How about you? From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 07:43:39 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Terminet 200 on ebay Message-ID: FYI: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3832302264 Mike http://www.corestore.org From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 08:13:46 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> as Sellam had suggested, the data size we represent the information in is not that important. I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. XML has become a storage format choice for a lot of different commercial packages. My knowledge is more based on the windows world, but I would doubt that other computer software houses are avoiding XML. Sun/Java certainly embraces it. I don't quite understand why representing binary as hex would affect the ability to have command line utilitities. Certainly more cpu cycles are needed for conversion and image file size is larger, but we need a readable format and I would think that cpu cycles is not as much of a concern or file size. A utility to create a disk would only have to run through the conversion once to buffer a representation of the floppy disk (unless we are talking about a hard drive image of course). The file size to re-create a floppy disk is only going to be 2 to 3meg at the most (if thinking about a 1.2meg floppy with fortmatting info). The only difference I see in the sections that were described is that the first one encompasses the format info and the data. My description had the first one as being a big block that contained the two other sections as well as length and CRC info to verify data consistency. Adding author, etc to the big block would make perfect sense. As for GCR, that would have been covered under etc... I am not familiar with GCR, but I would guess that it has to deal at least with physical tracks and heads. In this case, a track would consist of whatever the format needed plus the data blocks required for the track. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson Sent: Aug 11, 2004 8:08 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 10:50, Steve Thatcher wrote: > Hi all, after reading all this morning's posts, I thought I would throw out some thoughts. > > XML as a readable format is a great idea. I haven't done any serious playing with XML in the last couple of years, but back when I did, my experience was that XML is not a good format for mixing human-readable and binary data within the XML structure itself. To make matters worse, the XML spec (at least at the time) did not define whether it was possible to pass several XML documents down the same data stream (or, as we'd likely need for this, XML documents mixed with raw binary). Typically, parsers of the day expected to take control of the data stream and expected it to contain one XML document only - often closing the stream themselves afterwards. I did end up writing my own parser in a couple of KB of code which was a little more flexible in data stream handling (so XML's certainly not a heavyweight format, and could likely be handled on pretty much any machine), but it would be nice to make use of off-the-shelf parsers for platforms that have them where possible. As you've also said, my initial thought for a data format was to keep human-readable config seperate from binary data. The human-readable config would contain a table of lengths/offsets for the binary data giving the actual definition. This does have the advantage that if the binary data happens to be a linear sequence of blocks (sectors in the case of a disk image) then the raw image can easily be extracted if needs be (say, to allow conversion to a different format) Personally, I'm not a fan of mixing binary data in with the human-readable parts because then there are issues of character escaping as well as the structure detracting from the readability. And if encoded binary data is used instead (say, hexadecimal representation) then there's still an issue of readability, plus the archive ends up bloated and extra CPU cycles are needed to decode data. Neither of those two approaches lend themselves to simply being able to use common command-line utilities to extract the data, either. I'm prefectly willing to be convinced, though :) > I looked at the CAPS format and in part that would be okay. I would like > to throw in an idea of whatever we create as a standard actually have > three sections to it. So, first section is all the 'fuzzy' data (author, date, version info, description etc.), second section describes the layout of the binary data (offsets, surfaces, etc.), and the third section is the raw binary data itself? If so, I'm certainly happy with that :-) One aside - what's the natural way of defining data on a GCR floppy? Do heads/sectors/tracks still make sense as an addressing mode, but it's just that the number of sectors per track varies according to the track number? Or isn't it that simple? cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 11 08:18:43 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: <16665.25999.641479.474123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16666.7347.687000.11477@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >> When you say "archiving" what span of time do you mean? A year? >> A decade? A century? Longer? Vintage> Is forever too ambitious? :) Vintage> The idea is to create a standard for representing the data, Vintage> not a medium. Media with near-infinite longevity will be Vintage> the next undertaking :) The point of the question: what assumptions are you making about the people who are trying to read your archive N years from now? Are they assumed to be using computers? If so, what kind? To look at it differently -- if you handed someone a CDROM, and a stack of standards describing it (ISO 9660, the Red Book, etc.) but no computer and no CDROM drive, is that person likely to have enough information to recover the data on the disk? I expect the answer is "no, not even close". >> (See also www.longnow.org) Vintage> Is there a specific section you want to refer me to? It's all worth reading, but http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/library.htm seems directly relevant to the discussion. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 11 08:25:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project References: <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16666.7725.906000.210385@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "ben" == ben franchuk writes: ben> Tony Duell wrote: >> Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely >> public domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be >> claimed to include the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the >> 8088. ben> Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and ben> 6502 with I/O supplied by the user and ASM source. While I ben> suspect you can get a version for the 8088 I don't expect you ben> can get the source for it. Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, ben> print to screen, read disk block, write disk block I think is ben> all that is needed. I wonder if I still have the source on-line (I do have it on paper). There's also ColorForth, which unfortunately doesn't seem to want to boot on my modern PCs... paul From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 11 09:02:10 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AC5@mail10.congressfinancial.com> I haven't read the entire thread on this but I did read Steve Thatcher's idea and it describes about where I was coming out on this myself. I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive would be. Will the archive be used to (1) re-generate original media; (2) operate with emualtors; (3) both? To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording the data in the Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to modify the standard format a bit to accommodate a larger address space and to add some sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This data would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the stream of data read from the data area (the "Hex Block"). I agree that a multi-layer approach offers the best combination of platform neutrality and portability. I don't really know if we need two or three layers as Steve described to describe the file in a standard fashion. Using an Intel Hex-like format would increase the "de-archiving" time, but in my view it's a fair trade-off. De-archiving software could translate the platform-neutral file into another format better suited for use in emulators. I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean "well, it has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). Seeing how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how we should represent it. Just my $0.02. Rich From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 11 09:34:29 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AC5@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. The only reason I suggest this is the motorola format alread has a (semi) extensible record type description [the second char of each line]. S2 and S3 are already defined for 16MB and 4GB memory spaces... A (non-standard) record type "could" be used for media format, etc... Just my 16.3875 milli-EUR comment... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:02 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> I haven't read the entire thread on this but I did read >>> Steve Thatcher's idea and it describes about where I was >>> coming out on this myself. >>> >>> I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive >>> would be. Will the archive be used to (1) re-generate >>> original media; (2) operate with emualtors; (3) both? >>> >>> To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording >>> the data in the Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has >>> built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to modify the standard format >>> a bit to accommodate a larger address space and to add some >>> sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This >>> data would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the >>> stream of data read from the data area (the "Hex Block"). >>> >>> I agree that a multi-layer approach offers the best >>> combination of platform neutrality and portability. I don't >>> really know if we need two or three layers as Steve >>> described to describe the file in a standard fashion. Using >>> an Intel Hex-like format would increase the "de-archiving" >>> time, but in my view it's a fair trade-off. De-archiving >>> software could translate the platform-neutral file into >>> another format better suited for use in emulators. >>> >>> I think that we should start compiling a list of the >>> various media we want represented and how that media is >>> organized natively. I don't mean "well, it has blocks and >>> sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to >>> the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes >>> recorded twice"). Seeing how the various data stores are >>> organized should bring some clarity to how we should represent it. >>> >>> Just my $0.02. >>> >>> Rich >>> From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 11 09:23:44 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: OT: Technical Explaination... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0294d2dc4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message "David V. Corbin" wrote: > Hope the group will get a kick.... > > Why Computers Sometimes Crash! by Dr. Seuss. (Read this to yourself aloud - > it's great!) [snip] It's even better when you post the whole thing... source: ===> What If Dr. Seuss Wrote Technical Manuals? <=== ===> Author: Gene Ziegler <=== => A Grandchild's Guide to Using Grandpa's Computer <= Bits Bytes Chips Clocks Bits in bytes on chips in box. Bytes with bits and chips with clocks. Chips in box on ether-docks. Chips with bits come. Chips with bytes come. Chips with bits and bytes and clocks come. Look, sir. Look, sir. read the book, sir. Let's do tricks with bits and bytes, sir. Let's do tricks with chips and clocks, sir. First, I'll make a quick trick bit stack. Then I'll make a quick trick byte stack. You can make a quick trick chip stack. You can make a quick trick clock stack. And here's a new trick on the scene. Bits in bytes for your machine. Bytes in words to fill your screen. Now we come to ticks and tocks, sir. Try to say this by the clock, sir. Clocks on chips tick. Clocks on chips tock. Eight byte bits tick. Eight bit bytes tock. Clocks on chips with eight bit bytes tick. Chips with clocks and eight byte bits tock. [ now for the good bit -Philpem ] Here's an easy game to play. Here's an easy thing to say.... If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, And the bus is interrupted as a very last resort, And the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, Then the socket packet pocket has an error to report! If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, And the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash, And your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash, Then your situation's hopeless, and your system's gonna crash! You can't say this? What a shame sir! We'll find you another game sir. If the label on the cable on the table at your house, Says the network is connected to the button on your mouse, But your packets want to tunnel on another protocol, That's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall, And your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss So your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse, Then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang, 'Cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang! When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk, And the microcode instructions cause unnecessary RISC, Then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM. Quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your mom! Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I like Boolean logic. NOT! From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 11 09:37:42 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4ACB@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Dave: I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an Intel snob). The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would hope that 4gb would be enough, at least for now, to represent the largest of the media types we want to represent. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David V. Corbin Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:34 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. The only reason I suggest this is the motorola format alread has a (semi) extensible record type description [the second char of each line]. S2 and S3 are already defined for 16MB and 4GB memory spaces... A (non-standard) record type "could" be used for media format, etc... Just my 16.3875 milli-EUR comment... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:02 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> I haven't read the entire thread on this but I did read >>> Steve Thatcher's idea and it describes about where I was >>> coming out on this myself. >>> >>> I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive >>> would be. Will the archive be used to (1) re-generate >>> original media; (2) operate with emualtors; (3) both? >>> >>> To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording >>> the data in the Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has >>> built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to modify the standard format >>> a bit to accommodate a larger address space and to add some >>> sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This >>> data would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the >>> stream of data read from the data area (the "Hex Block"). >>> >>> I agree that a multi-layer approach offers the best >>> combination of platform neutrality and portability. I don't >>> really know if we need two or three layers as Steve >>> described to describe the file in a standard fashion. Using >>> an Intel Hex-like format would increase the "de-archiving" >>> time, but in my view it's a fair trade-off. De-archiving >>> software could translate the platform-neutral file into >>> another format better suited for use in emulators. >>> >>> I think that we should start compiling a list of the >>> various media we want represented and how that media is >>> organized natively. I don't mean "well, it has blocks and >>> sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to >>> the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes >>> recorded twice"). Seeing how the various data stores are >>> organized should bring some clarity to how we should represent it. >>> >>> Just my $0.02. >>> >>> Rich >>> From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 09:50:08 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 13:13, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, > but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of > whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) Hence keeping the archive small would seem sensible so that it can be left as-is without any compression. My wild guesstimate on archive size would be to aim for 110 - 120% of the raw data size if possible... > XML has become a storage format choice for a lot of different commercial > packages. My knowledge is more based on the windows world, but I would doubt > that other computer software houses are avoiding XML. Sun/Java certainly > embraces it. My background (in XML terms) is with Java - but I've not come across software that mixes a human-readable format in with a large amount of binary data though (whether encoded or not). Typically the metadata's kept seperate from the binary data itself, either in parallel files (not suitable in our case) or as seperate sections within the same file. > I don't quite understand why representing binary as hex would affect the > ability to have command line utilitities. See my posting the other week when I was trying to convert ASCII-based hex data back into binary on a Unix platform :-) There's no *standard* utility to do it (which means there certainly isn't on Windows). If the data within the file is raw binary, then it's just a case of using dd to extract it even if there's no high-level utility available to do it. > Certainly more cpu cycles are needed for conversion and image file size is > larger, but we need a readable format But the data describing all aspects of disk image would be readable by a human; it's only the raw data itself that wouldn't be - for both efficiency and for ease of use. The driving force for having human-readable data in the archive is so that it can be reconstructed at a later date, possibly without any reference to any spec, is it not? If it was guaranteed that a spec was *always* going to be available, having human-readable data at all wouldn't make much sense as it just introduces bloat; a pure binary format would be better. I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra conversion step into the decode process. > and I would think that cpu cycles is not as much of a concern or file size. In terms of CPU cycles, for me, no - I can't see me ever using the archive format except on modern hardware. I can't speak for others on the list though. As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size of your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may be). That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a big waste to me :-( > The only difference I see in the sections that were described is that > the first one encompasses the format info and the data. My description > had the first one as being a big block that contained the two other sections > as well as length and CRC info to verify data consistency. > Adding author, etc to the big block would make perfect sense. Yep, I'm with you there. CRC's are a nice idea. Question: does it make sense to make CRC info a compulsory section in the archive file? Does it make sense to have it always present, given that it's *likely* that these archive files will only ever be transferred from place to place using modern hardware? I'm not sure. If you're spitting data across a buggy serial link, then the CRC info is nice to have - but maybe it should be an optional inclusion rather than mandatory, so that in a lot of cases archive size can be kept down? (and the assumption made that there exists source code / spec for a utility to add CRC info to an existing archive file if desired) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 09:51:54 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4ACB@mail10.congressfinancial.com> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4ACB@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <1092235914.9446.120.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 14:37, Cini, Richard wrote: > Dave: > > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an Intel snob). > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would hope that 4gb would > be enough, at least for now, to represent the largest of the media types we > want to represent. I don't know about 4GB, but I'd really like to archive hard disk images in the 20-30MB range using the same format if possible... cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 11 10:46:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235914.9446.120.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: S1 = 16 bit address in each record.. S2 = 24 bit address in each record.. S3 = 32 bit address in each record.. Hence the maximum sizes..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:52 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 14:37, Cini, Richard wrote: >>> > Dave: >>> > >>> > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an >>> Intel snob). >>> > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would >>> hope that 4gb >>> > would be enough, at least for now, to represent the >>> largest of the >>> > media types we want to represent. >>> >>> I don't know about 4GB, but I'd really like to archive hard >>> disk images in the 20-30MB range using the same format if >>> possible... >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> Jules >>> >>> >>> From tomhudson at execpc.com Wed Aug 11 10:41:48 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Tandy In-Reply-To: <000d01c47f4f$7eafa240$0600a8c0@cablemodem> References: <000d01c47f4f$7eafa240$0600a8c0@cablemodem> Message-ID: <411A3E3C.4020209@execpc.com> Please do! I've been looking for a photo of this system on the net, to no avail. -Tom Terry Yager wrote: >Yup! That's the animal, all right...built into a desk. I can post the picture on a webpage if anyone is interested in eyeballin' it. > > > From kth at srv.net Wed Aug 11 11:09:43 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <411A44C7.403@srv.net> Jules Richardson wrote: >On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 13:13, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > > >> I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, >>but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of >>whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. >> >> > >"could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years >time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to >decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) >Hence keeping the archive small would seem sensible so that it can be >left as-is without any compression. My wild guesstimate on archive size >would be to aim for 110 - 120% of the raw data size if possible... > > > I'd believe that ZIP archives will be well known in the future, due to the large number of software products using it right now, and the length of time is has existed so far. (Famous last words?) The compression methods are fairly well known, and there exist several open source libraries to handle it, aswell as being embeded in many new projects. OpenOffice/StarOffice, as an example, uses zipped xml files as its native save format. This fact alone should help keep the ZIP format alive with the large number of groups/companies/governments/countries switching to OpenOffice. >>XML has become a storage format choice for a lot of different commercial >>packages. My knowledge is more based on the windows world, but I would doubt >> that other computer software houses are avoiding XML. Sun/Java certainly >>embraces it. >> >> > >My background (in XML terms) is with Java - but I've not come across >software that mixes a human-readable format in with a large amount of >binary data though (whether encoded or not). Typically the metadata's >kept seperate from the binary data itself, either in parallel files (not >suitable in our case) or as seperate sections within the same file. > > > Binary data is usually encoded in an XML file into a some type of text: base64, hex/octal, etc. You don't want actual raw binary data embeded in an XML document. >>I don't quite understand why representing binary as hex would affect the >>ability to have command line utilitities. >> >> > >See my posting the other week when I was trying to convert ASCII-based >hex data back into binary on a Unix platform :-) There's no *standard* >utility to do it (which means there certainly isn't on Windows). If the >data within the file is raw binary, then it's just a case of using dd to >extract it even if there's no high-level utility available to do it. > > > But how do you know that DD will exist in 50 years? It isn't hard to write a simple hex-bin and bin-hex program. Couple of lines of perl, and you are done. The main problem is there isn't a real hex dump standard. There are several hex conversions in 'recode' on linux. >>Certainly more cpu cycles are needed for conversion and image file size is >>larger, but we need a readable format >> >> > >But the data describing all aspects of disk image would be readable by a >human; it's only the raw data itself that wouldn't be - for both >efficiency and for ease of use. The driving force for having >human-readable data in the archive is so that it can be reconstructed at >a later date, possibly without any reference to any spec, is it not? If >it was guaranteed that a spec was *always* going to be available, having >human-readable data at all wouldn't make much sense as it just >introduces bloat; a pure binary format would be better. > >I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the >original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - >all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra >conversion step into the decode process. > > > Binary data can get badly munged during transmission across the internet, with ascii-ebcdic conversions, 7-bit/8-bit paths, etc. Not as much a problem as it used to be. A text version doesn't suffer these problems. >>and I would think that cpu cycles is not as much of a concern or file size. >> >> > >In terms of CPU cycles, for me, no - I can't see me ever using the >archive format except on modern hardware. I can't speak for others on >the list though. > >As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size of >your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may be). >That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a big >waste to me :-( > > > If you then ZIP the file, it will likely become smaller than the original. With the availability of programs like zcat/zmore, reading it wouldn't be much of a problem either. >>The only difference I see in the sections that were described is that >>the first one encompasses the format info and the data. My description >>had the first one as being a big block that contained the two other sections >>as well as length and CRC info to verify data consistency. >> Adding author, etc to the big block would make perfect sense. >> >> > >Yep, I'm with you there. CRC's are a nice idea. Question: does it make >sense to make CRC info a compulsory section in the archive file? Does it >make sense to have it always present, given that it's *likely* that >these archive files will only ever be transferred from place to place >using modern hardware? I'm not sure. If you're spitting data across a >buggy serial link, then the CRC info is nice to have - but maybe it >should be an optional inclusion rather than mandatory, so that in a lot >of cases archive size can be kept down? (and the assumption made that >there exists source code / spec for a utility to add CRC info to an >existing archive file if desired) > > > The necessity of CRC's depend on what you plan on doing with the data. If it is just going to be sitting in a nice, safe box, then it doesn't matter. It it is going to be tossed all over the place, through strange networks, around the world, bounced off mars, etc. then it becomes much more important. Depending on how large a chunk you CRC, the size differencial can be very minimal. A CRC for every byte, expensive, for one track, minimal. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 10:57:47 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:04 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2004 09:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 13:13, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data > > size would expand, but the data would also be compressable so > > things could be kept in ZIP files of whatever choice a person would > > want to for their archiving purposes. > > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 > years time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no > idea how to decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) UNIX's compress format has been around for decades now... has its patents expired yet? If not, there's always gzip... > Hence keeping the archive small would seem sensible so that it can be > left as-is without any compression. My wild guesstimate on archive > size would be to aim for 110 - 120% of the raw data size if > possible... You could uuencode the data... For long term archiving it might be suggestable to have plain-text paper copies of the data (hoping in 50+ years they'll have decent OCR technology :). So, you *need* something that only uses some sane subset of characters, like what uuencode or BASE64 encoding gives you. Uuencode is a bit older so I'd tend to lean towards that over BASE64. > > XML has become a storage format choice for a lot of different > > commercial packages. My knowledge is more based on the windows > > world, but I would doubt that other computer software houses are > > avoiding XML. Sun/Java certainly embraces it. > > My background (in XML terms) is with Java - but I've not come across > software that mixes a human-readable format in with a large amount of > binary data though (whether encoded or not). Typically the metadata's > kept seperate from the binary data itself, either in parallel files > (not suitable in our case) or as seperate sections within the same > file. I'm personally prejudiced against XML, but that's just me. : ) > > I don't quite understand why representing binary as hex would > > affect the ability to have command line utilitities. > > See my posting the other week when I was trying to convert > ASCII-based hex data back into binary on a Unix platform :-) There's > no *standard* utility to do it (which means there certainly isn't on > Windows). If the data within the file is raw binary, then it's just a > case of using dd to extract it even if there's no high-level utility > available to do it. You could decode it by hand (ick) or write a Q&D program to do it for you. I'd hope that *programming* won't be a lost art in 50+ years. > > Certainly more cpu cycles are needed for conversion and image file > > size is larger, but we need a readable format > > I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the > original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - > all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra > conversion step into the decode process. Again, producing paper copies of stuff with non-printable characters becomes "problematic". > > and I would think that cpu cycles is not as much of a concern or > > file size. > > In terms of CPU cycles, for me, no - I can't see me ever using the > archive format except on modern hardware. I can't speak for others on > the list though. > > As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size > of your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may > be). That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a > big waste to me :-( Then use uuencode or similar that does a bit less wasteful conversion. Anyways, the only computer media type where KB/in^2 (or KB/in^3) isn't increasing rapidly is paper. > > The only difference I see in the sections that were described is > > that the first one encompasses the format info and the data. My > > description had the first one as being a big block that contained > > the two other sections as well as length and CRC info to verify > > data consistency. Adding author, etc to the big block would make > > perfect sense. > > Yep, I'm with you there. CRC's are a nice idea. Question: does it > make sense to make CRC info a compulsory section in the archive file? > Does it make sense to have it always present, given that it's > *likely* that these archive files will only ever be transferred from > place to place using modern hardware? I'm not sure. If you're > spitting data across a buggy serial link, then the CRC info is nice > to have - but maybe it should be an optional inclusion rather than > mandatory, so that in a lot of cases archive size can be kept down? > (and the assumption made that there exists source code / spec for a > utility to add CRC info to an existing archive file if desired) Yes. A CRC is *always* a good idea. Or, you could do an ECC even ;) I don't really understand why you're quite so concerned about archive size bloat, at least over things like CRC's (which if applied liberally might add a 4% bloat in size) or plain-text encoding (which would add between 33% to about 100% to the size). I'd rather give up some efficiency in this case for ensuring that the data is stored correctly, and can be properly read (and easily decoded) in 50+ years. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 11 11:03:32 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811111559.049b6fe0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the >original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - >all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra >conversion step into the decode process. Different systems interpret binary data differently, especially if there is human-readable code within the file. MS-DOS very likely could think the file is binary, and the first hex 0x06 would terminate the file. However, if it is considered binary many viewers wouldn't open it if it's got non-printable ASCII characters within. Or -- how about transferring this file from MS-DOS <=> Linux <=> MacOS <=> BeOS ... will it (and if so, how will it) convert line ending chars, tabs & other binary chars? A hex representation will reduce conversion problems measurably - remember, this is supposed to be an "ultra-portable" format. >As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size of >your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may be). >That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a big >waste to me :-( Not necessarily - IIRC, Moto S-records only have records for where there's actually data, right? So if the disk is only 1/2 full of data, the S-record would reflect that, right? If we're already going to take this "beyond" the spec, couldn't we institute some RLE encoding as well? Just thoughts, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 10:56:21 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:50 AM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years > time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to > decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) > Hence keeping the archive small would seem sensible so that it can be > left as-is without any compression. My wild guesstimate on archive size > would be to aim for 110 - 120% of the raw data size if possible... I'd say ZIP is so ubiquitous, if the format itself is dead and gone there should be a pile of documentation on how to extract it, especially if you keep to the basic "deflate" algorithm, used in everything from PNG to gzip to Jar. > My background (in XML terms) is with Java - but I've not come across > software that mixes a human-readable format in with a large amount of > binary data though (whether encoded or not). Typically the metadata's > kept seperate from the binary data itself, either in parallel files (not > suitable in our case) or as seperate sections within the same file. Fork it. Make it a binary file, but keep the metadata in the header ASCII/Unicode/XML/Whatever. That way a simple cat or less or opening in notepad will show you what's in it. > See my posting the other week when I was trying to convert ASCII-based > hex data back into binary on a Unix platform :-) There's no *standard* > utility to do it (which means there certainly isn't on Windows). If the > data within the file is raw binary, then it's just a case of using dd to > extract it even if there's no high-level utility available to do it. On the macs there's Binhex which has been the standard since file transfers have begun. Also, there are dozens of *nix utilties to deal with Base64 (MIME) encoded data. > But the data describing all aspects of disk image would be readable by a > human; it's only the raw data itself that wouldn't be - for both > efficiency and for ease of use. The driving force for having > human-readable data in the archive is so that it can be reconstructed at > a later date, possibly without any reference to any spec, is it not? If > it was guaranteed that a spec was *always* going to be available, having > human-readable data at all wouldn't make much sense as it just > introduces bloat; a pure binary format would be better. IMHO if you have a file laying around and you have no idea what it is, it's still nice to be able to read it in as text and see what's going on, the Unix "file" command notwithstanding. > > I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the > original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - > all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra > conversion step into the decode process. Usually text moves around multiple machines/oses a lot easier than binary data. If you can dump a text file to a machine somehow, you can transfer a media archive and a .c program to compile and decode it. > > Yep, I'm with you there. CRC's are a nice idea. Question: does it make > sense to make CRC info a compulsory section in the archive file? Does it > make sense to have it always present, given that it's *likely* that > these archive files will only ever be transferred from place to place > using modern hardware? I'm not sure. If you're spitting data across a > buggy serial link, then the CRC info is nice to have - but maybe it > should be an optional inclusion rather than mandatory, so that in a lot > of cases archive size can be kept down? (and the assumption made that > there exists source code / spec for a utility to add CRC info to an > existing archive file if desired) I think CRC's should be compulsorary, with an external hash optional. Corruption can happen on new hardware as well as old :) > > cheers > > Jules > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 11 11:33:27 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <411A4A57.1080506@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > One suggestion... for the data portion of sectors/tracks/etc... let's spec > in a run-length encoding scheme so large portions of unused media compress > down really tightly (lots of zeros, or in the case of a real 1541 disc, > lots of hex 0x01s). If it's XMLish, it could look like '01' > or some such. Also timing needs to be done too of the media. A laser hole in the disk could rely on software timer that is interupted when the floppy disk controler gets a I/O error. I know the Color Computer uses software and hardware wait instruction to do the dma transfer, and other sneeky stuff. Also what about a drum memory where the timeing track needs to recorded. > -ethan Ben. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 11:48:41 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 15:57, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 11 August 2004 09:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 > > years time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no > > idea how to decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) > > UNIX's compress format has been around for decades now... has its > patents expired yet? If not, there's always gzip... Unix goes pop in what, 2038 though? :-) Maybe zip's not the ideal example. My point really is that if the archives are enormous, people are going to be tempted to compress them. If they compress them, what guarantee is there that a) the compression method is going to be around when someone totally unrelated wants to handle these files in x years, and b) is it going to be obvious to someone in x years what compression method was even used to compress the file? Again, it's back to longevity of the archives themselves. If something's needed for the short term (next ten years, say), it's not a problem. But it'd be nice if a future generation, upon discovering one of these archives, could know exactly what it was (and stand a good chance of decoding it) just by looking at it (hence the human-readable part) > You could uuencode the data... For long term archiving it might be > suggestable to have plain-text paper copies of the data (hoping in 50+ > years they'll have decent OCR technology :). So, you *need* something > that only uses some sane subset of characters, like what uuencode or > BASE64 encoding gives you. Uuencode is a bit older so I'd tend to > lean towards that over BASE64. Again, I don't like the idea of anything happening to the archive files after creation though. I suppose the data from the raw device (floppy, hard disk, whatever) within the archive could be encoded somehow (leaving the config section as plain-text) - providing it's in a common enough format that we think someone will be able to find the spec for the encoding method in x years and so be able to get at the data. That's somewhat hard to say for sure though! > I'm personally prejudiced against XML, but that's just me. : ) It has its uses; as a hierarchical storage mechanism for plain text it's good IMHO. But I wouldn't use it for small or human-editable config files, or in any situation where the data you're encapsulating is totally swamped by the surrounding markup. > > > I don't quite understand why representing binary as hex would > > > affect the ability to have command line utilitities. > > > > See my posting the other week when I was trying to convert > > ASCII-based hex data back into binary on a Unix platform :-) There's > > no *standard* utility to do it (which means there certainly isn't on > > Windows). If the data within the file is raw binary, then it's just a > > case of using dd to extract it even if there's no high-level utility > > available to do it. > > You could decode it by hand (ick) or write a Q&D program to do it for > you. I'd hope that *programming* won't be a lost art in 50+ years. Well I ended up doing the latter - I was actually quite surprised there was no standard util to take a stream of hex characters, stripping out any junk, and writing out the resulting binary (sort of a reverse hexdump). > Again, producing paper copies of stuff with non-printable characters > becomes "problematic". That's actually an extremely good point, and perhaps the best argument (IMHO) for not using binary data so far :-) Hmmm... > Yes. A CRC is *always* a good idea. Or, you could do an ECC even ;) shush :-) > I don't really understand why you're quite so concerned about archive > size bloat, mainly because I have hard drives swamped with scans of paper documentation :-) Each page is 'only' 2-3MB but it doesn't half add up quickly. > at least over things like CRC's (which if applied liberally > might add a 4% bloat in size) well it's the usual case of analysing and weighing up features against how often they'll actually be needed, and acting accordingly - otherwise you end up with something like MS Word's document format and I'm sure nobody wants to end up there! :) Seriously, if there's a good argument for having CRC's in more than x (50?) percent of cases because corrupted data expected to be a real possibility, then make them mandatory. If not, then make them an optional extra. I certainly can't see a good reason why they'll *never* be needed, that's for sure. > or plain-text encoding (which would add > between 33% to about 100% to the size). I'd rather give up some > efficiency in this case for ensuring that the data is stored correctly, > and can be properly read (and easily decoded) in 50+ years. With you on the longevity side of things. Hmm, off the wall suggestion, but it's only the storage format for the raw data that's an issue, right? So does it make sense to define both binary and ASCII representation as valid storage formats, and the format in use within a particular archive is recorded as a parameter within the human-readable config section? That's no different to most common image formats, say, where data might be uncompressed, or compressed in several different ways. Only a fraction of any program capable of producing such an archive would be given over to the raw data encode stage, so it doesn't add any complexity really. Utilities to convert between formats should be pretty trivial; no more complex than decoding the archive in the first place anyway. Nothing to stop someone at a future date - say in 30 years - wanting to convert an archive to paper format, even if it's in a format which doesn't lend itself to this - the spec defines the pure-ASCII method and so conversion is possible at that point. In this way those wanting compact archives to save space, run against various existing utilities etc. can have them containing binary data; those who think they need ASCII representation of the data due to tool or transmission medium limitations can use that format - all whilst maintining compatibility with the spec. (potentially the 'encoding method' parameter could include other defined types - uuencode, base64 etc. but let's not get ahead of ourselves...) (funny how someone mentioned IFF files earlier; I keep on thinking of TIFF images where the data's structured and the format both versioned and maintained under strict control) cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 11 11:46:53 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: DEC/PDP-11 ROMs -- was Re: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu "Re: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 9, 21:58) References: <040809215822.1735e@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <10408111746.ZM14742@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 9 2004, 21:58, trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > I have three boards. Two of them are Rev. K3. One of the boards has PROMS > on it, and no readable version, but the second has the 330-E5 and the > 331-E5. Thanks, Joe. I've got images now. For those who may be interested, I've added a few more images to my DEC ROM collection, including those. In an effort to make it slightly more user-friendly, I've also added a 00ReadMe file and one called "ROMlist", which lists ROM numbers I know, with the modules they belong to, and some (occasionally cryptic) notes. The whole lot is at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ Further contributions welcome :-) Did anyone sort out a repository for the small PROMs used in Unibus bootstraps and the like? I know Henk has a nice (if you don't mind Javascript) list of the common ones, but I don't know if dumps are around anywhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 11 12:03:22 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200408111711.NAA24311@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Unix goes pop in what, 2038 though? :-) Only if you insist on still using signed 32-bit values for time. I fully expect that by 2038 int, never mind long, will be at least 64 bits wide, which will push the "go pop" date well past the expected lifetime of our solar system. > [...] - I was actually quite surprised there was no standard util to > take a stream of hex characters, stripping out any junk, and writing > out the resulting binary (sort of a reverse hexdump). cvtbase x d | code-to-char Of course, cvtbase and code-to-char are both my own work, but anyone who wants either is welcome to a copy. (ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca, in /mouse/hacks/cvtbase.c and /mouse/local/src/charcode/.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 11 12:20:05 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <411A5545.3040405@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 13:13, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > >> I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, >>but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of >>whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. > > > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years > time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to > decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) There's going to have to be _some_ assumption of continuity or this project is hopeless. It's my opinion that short-term or long-term, anyone who wants or needs access to the data** will have some historical understanding of the computing environment contemporary to that data. Provisions for changing technology and loss of continuity are good, but we still need to draw the line at some point, especially concerning "external" archival of the archived data, i.e. zipped arcives and storage media. To go to an extreme example, even printed ASCII on paper or mylar isn't reliable. Paper may be just as archaic as hieroglyphics when the data is wanted. We have to depend on ongoing maintenance of these archives. If they are not periodically migrated to current media, and if the attached/imbedded documentation is not augmented to account for social and technical "loss of memory", future retrieval will be difficult, if not impossible, no matter what we do now. Doc ** Technically speaking. We can't provide for, say a non-technical attorney who wants recorded files as evidence. That example will end up in the hands of someone like us. From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 12:32:45 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <26614279.1092245566070.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> my concept of splitting the data and the formatting information relies on the data blocks being the correct size for whatever media you are creating. In other words, you could see 128, 256, 512, and 1024 "sectors" for floppies. Each data block is assigned a number (virtual or real) that is then used to put the data in the correct physical location on whatever media it was supposed to be put in. The addressing of the hex formats in less important that the ability to have a block size of the required length. A paper tape data block would be whatever arbitrary length the tape was a be sequential. Same goes for a cassette tapel recording that might have been converted to mp3 for storage. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "David V. Corbin" Sent: Aug 11, 2004 8:46 AM To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard S1 = 16 bit address in each record.. S2 = 24 bit address in each record.. S3 = 32 bit address in each record.. Hence the maximum sizes..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:52 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 14:37, Cini, Richard wrote: >>> > Dave: >>> > >>> > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an >>> Intel snob). >>> > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would >>> hope that 4gb >>> > would be enough, at least for now, to represent the >>> largest of the >>> > media types we want to represent. >>> >>> I don't know about 4GB, but I'd really like to archive hard >>> disk images in the 20-30MB range using the same format if >>> possible... >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> Jules >>> >>> >>> From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 11 12:38:27 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <411A5993.70105@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 15:57, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >>On Wednesday 11 August 2004 09:50, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>>"could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 >>>years time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no >>>idea how to decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) >> >>UNIX's compress format has been around for decades now... has its >>patents expired yet? If not, there's always gzip... > > > Unix goes pop in what, 2038 though? :-) *32-bit* Unix goes pop in 2038. Since every currently-maintained Unix (or Unix-alike for you OpenGroup fanatics) runs on 64-bit hardware and in 64-bit mode, I don't see it as a problem. The fact that most Unix admins are even aware of the 2038 issue infers that it won't be the problem that Y2K was. Doc From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 12:40:20 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <22541322.1092246021495.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> to clarify my comment about using zip, this was suggested as a way for a person to reduce the size of their archive for their own purposes. I was not proposing that data be compressed with zip for the actual archive file. The only assumption I made for data continuity was that the data needed to be ascii and to have some error detection ability to let the person accessing the data have an idea of validity. Keeping an image file in an error checked ascii file in a purely sequential form seems to me to not rely on any technology or special information other than accessing a pure data file from some type of computer system. As someone else suggested, ascii text could even be contained in archive files to explain how to get teh data back. My thought of having the data accessible as well as the formatting information would allow a single transmission of a group of files to be sent with information contained within to either get just the data or be able to actually create media copies. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Doc Shipley Sent: Aug 11, 2004 10:20 AM To: General@mdrconsult.com, Discussion@mdrconsult.com@null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null@null Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 13:13, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > >> I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, >>but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of >>whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. > > > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years > time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to > decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) There's going to have to be _some_ assumption of continuity or this project is hopeless. It's my opinion that short-term or long-term, anyone who wants or needs access to the data** will have some historical understanding of the computing environment contemporary to that data. Provisions for changing technology and loss of continuity are good, but we still need to draw the line at some point, especially concerning "external" archival of the archived data, i.e. zipped arcives and storage media. To go to an extreme example, even printed ASCII on paper or mylar isn't reliable. Paper may be just as archaic as hieroglyphics when the data is wanted. We have to depend on ongoing maintenance of these archives. If they are not periodically migrated to current media, and if the attached/imbedded documentation is not augmented to account for social and technical "loss of memory", future retrieval will be difficult, if not impossible, no matter what we do now. Doc ** Technically speaking. We can't provide for, say a non-technical attorney who wants recorded files as evidence. That example will end up in the hands of someone like us. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 11 12:45:44 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411A5993.70105@mdrconsult.com> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> <411A5993.70105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <411A5B48.6060602@mdrconsult.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 15:57, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >>> On Wednesday 11 August 2004 09:50, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>>> "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 >>>> years time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no >>>> idea how to decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) >>> >>> >>> UNIX's compress format has been around for decades now... has its >>> patents expired yet? If not, there's always gzip... >> >> >> >> Unix goes pop in what, 2038 though? :-) > > > *32-bit* Unix goes pop in 2038. Since every currently-maintained Unix > (or Unix-alike for you OpenGroup fanatics) runs on 64-bit hardware and > in 64-bit mode, I don't see it as a problem. Oh, crap, what a fubar! Unforgiveable, too, since my PDP-11 is running 2.11BSD downstairs.... s/every currently-maintained/almost every currently-maintained/ Doc From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 12:45:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I don't quite understand why representing binary as hex would affect the > ability to have command line utilitities. Certainly more cpu cycles are > needed for conversion and image file size is larger, but we need a > readable format and I would think that cpu cycles is not as much of a > concern or file size. A utility to create a disk would only have to run > through the conversion once to buffer a representation of the floppy > disk (unless we are talking about a hard drive image of course). The > file size to re-create a floppy disk is only going to be 2 to 3meg at > the most (if thinking about a 1.2meg floppy with fortmatting info). I'm leaning away from including a raw binary image of the data in the archive itself. Sure, it would be handy to have a dual use file, that's both readily human and machine readable. But as has been pointed out, there's two issues: mixing characters with binary might be messy, and the archive size then bloats considerably, which might be a problem for certain platforms. The image can always be parsed in realtime by the native platform, if it's fast enough and has enough resources (RAM, HD space, etc.) A driver of sorts could translate the archive file in realtime to make it appear as a floppy or tape or whatever. Creative solutions like connecting to a host processor over a serial port, having the host processor do the translation, and then making the serial port look like a disk drive or whatever on the target system is another option. And then of course, the image can be simply converted back to it's original format and sent to the target system so that it can be written out back to its native media. > As for GCR, that would have been covered under etc... I am not familiar > with GCR, but I would guess that it has to deal at least with physical > tracks and heads. In this case, a track would consist of whatever the > format needed plus the data blocks required for the track. GCR is no different than MFM in terms of data organization. It's just the way the bits are read/written from/to the media that's different. GCR has tracks and sectors just like MFM. I am taking notes on everything being written, BTW. I'm currently planning a special session at the VCF to officially launch this as an RFC. If all the big names I plan to invite actually come (and I think they might be compelled to do so) it will turn into quite a neat session. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 12:50:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <16666.7347.687000.11477@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > The point of the question: what assumptions are you making about the > people who are trying to read your archive N years from now? Are they > assumed to be using computers? If so, what kind? > > To look at it differently -- if you handed someone a CDROM, and a > stack of standards describing it (ISO 9660, the Red Book, etc.) but no > computer and no CDROM drive, is that person likely to have enough > information to recover the data on the disk? I expect the answer is > "no, not even close". Well, that's hard to say really. Whose to know what technology people will have access to in the future? Whose to say they will be speaking any language we use today? There are a lot of ifs. All we can do is make a standard and live by it, and then hope its useful to future generations. > >> (See also www.longnow.org) > > Vintage> Is there a specific section you want to refer me to? > > It's all worth reading, but > http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/library.htm seems directly relevant > to the discussion. I read that, and I understand the concerns expressed. But a first step is to actually develop a universally recognized format to archive the data from various media into. The hard part is coming up with either a technology that can last millenia, or a system that is foolproof and will make sure the archive data is propagated throughout generations. I'm focusing right now on the easy part. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 12:52:55 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <14438856.1092246776929.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> actually both Intel and Motorola use a checksum which is just the negative value of the summation of all bytes. A CRC check actually was used in zmodem for example and it is a mathematical value derived from a polynomial function (do a search for CRC onm the web). There are CRC code snippets for creation of this type of data. I know a three section approach that I was proposing is more complicated, but from a code standpoint allows total freedom of data access without having to create a target media let alone have the computer system to then read the media just to get at the data that was on a floppy disk. The beauty is that if you need to create a Northstar system diskette then you can, but if all you need is a copy of the dump.asm program then you can get that also without having to go any further than the file you started with. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Cini, Richard" Sent: Aug 11, 2004 7:37 AM To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Dave: I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an Intel snob). The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would hope that 4gb would be enough, at least for now, to represent the largest of the media types we want to represent. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David V. Corbin Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:34 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. The only reason I suggest this is the motorola format alread has a (semi) extensible record type description [the second char of each line]. S2 and S3 are already defined for 16MB and 4GB memory spaces... A (non-standard) record type "could" be used for media format, etc... Just my 16.3875 milli-EUR comment... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:02 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> I haven't read the entire thread on this but I did read >>> Steve Thatcher's idea and it describes about where I was >>> coming out on this myself. >>> >>> I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive >>> would be. Will the archive be used to (1) re-generate >>> original media; (2) operate with emualtors; (3) both? >>> >>> To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording >>> the data in the Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has >>> built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to modify the standard format >>> a bit to accommodate a larger address space and to add some >>> sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This >>> data would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the >>> stream of data read from the data area (the "Hex Block"). >>> >>> I agree that a multi-layer approach offers the best >>> combination of platform neutrality and portability. I don't >>> really know if we need two or three layers as Steve >>> described to describe the file in a standard fashion. Using >>> an Intel Hex-like format would increase the "de-archiving" >>> time, but in my view it's a fair trade-off. De-archiving >>> software could translate the platform-neutral file into >>> another format better suited for use in emulators. >>> >>> I think that we should start compiling a list of the >>> various media we want represented and how that media is >>> organized natively. I don't mean "well, it has blocks and >>> sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to >>> the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes >>> recorded twice"). Seeing how the various data stores are >>> organized should bring some clarity to how we should represent it. >>> >>> Just my $0.02. >>> >>> Rich >>> From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 12:56:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AC5@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive would be. Will the > archive be used to (1) re-generate original media; (2) operate with > emualtors; (3) both? Both. Emulators will certainly be able to make use of the archive by having parsers built-in that can translate the archive data into something the emulator can use. So instead of point the emulator to a binary disk image, you would point it to an archive file and it would translate the file back into tracks/sectors, or punch cards, or whatever. > To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording the data in the > Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to > modify the standard format a bit to accommodate a larger address space and > to add some sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This data > would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the stream of data read from > the data area (the "Hex Block"). I think you're thinking of this in terms of a large binary file encoded as ASCII hex. If so, this is not what's being proposed. What is being discussed is a format which actually describes the physical medium. For example, on floppy: Apple ][ System Disk HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 ... HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 > I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want > represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean "well, it > has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to > the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). Seeing > how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how > we should represent it. I agree. This would be useful. Does someone want to volunteer to do this? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 11 13:04:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: HP 7906 In-Reply-To: <001e01c47b1e$1c6912e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040805143901.0091f500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040811140434.0091cbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jay, Well I missed out on the drive. I went out there twice but it was raining both times so I couldn't dig it out. I went back today but someone had beat me to it. I'll let you know if anothe one shows up. Joe At 01:57 PM 8/5/04 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote.... >> This reminds me. I saw a 7906 laying in a scrap yard a few days ago. I >> don't know the condition, it was upside down in the dirt and under a large >> wire basket. Is there any parts that I need that I can get off of it >readily? > >Funny you should mention that. A spindle motor would be nice. Takes a bit of >work to get out though, and they are actually pretty delicate. If you take >the spindle motor out you should (and would have to already) take the fixed >platter out. Since it's a servo pattern based drive (with a different >magnetic coating for the servo surface) those are great to have as spares. >All 4 heads, especially the servo head. The large power board in the bottom, >and the 4 (or 5 if it's an H model) circuit boards from the card cage pull >easily. The main things I need are spindle motor, and I/O sector board. > >I could definitely use those parts. > >Jay West > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:00:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4ACB@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an Intel snob). > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would hope that 4gb would > be enough, at least for now, to represent the largest of the media types we > want to represent. The data should be structured in a way where address size does not even come into consideration. Why would we encode platform specific information into a media archive? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 11 13:03:26 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: HP 7906 References: <3.0.6.32.20040805143901.0091f500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040811140434.0091cbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <01ad01c47fcd$803fbae0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Thanks for checking Joe. I'm trying to get my last 7906 refurb done for another collector, and so far I think a spindle motor is the only fly in the ointment. The 7905/06 spindle motors are interchangeable. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 13:10:41 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <27894111.1092247841546.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. My earlier point of separating the data and the format information allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS or the platform. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 11, 2004 10:56 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive would be. Will the > archive be used to (1) re-generate original media; (2) operate with > emualtors; (3) both? Both. Emulators will certainly be able to make use of the archive by having parsers built-in that can translate the archive data into something the emulator can use. So instead of point the emulator to a binary disk image, you would point it to an archive file and it would translate the file back into tracks/sectors, or punch cards, or whatever. > To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording the data in the > Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to > modify the standard format a bit to accommodate a larger address space and > to add some sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This data > would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the stream of data read from > the data area (the "Hex Block"). I think you're thinking of this in terms of a large binary file encoded as ASCII hex. If so, this is not what's being proposed. What is being discussed is a format which actually describes the physical medium. For example, on floppy: Apple ][ System Disk HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 ... HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 > I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want > represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean "well, it > has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to > the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). Seeing > how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how > we should represent it. I agree. This would be useful. Does someone want to volunteer to do this? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:15:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, > > but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of > > whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. > > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years > time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to > decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) > Hence keeping the archive small would seem sensible so that it can be > left as-is without any compression. My wild guesstimate on archive size > would be to aim for 110 - 120% of the raw data size if possible... I agree, but we'd definitely have to include compression features if we are to meet this goal. Using a floppy disk as an example, a worst case scenario is that the image would be maybe 205% the size of the original media (200% is the fact that you are now using two bytes to store one, and 5% is all the markup tags). Keeping the archive small should be a major goal, since that would encourage people to keep the images stored uncompressed. Hard drives are getting larger and all that, and my guess is at some point this issue will be moot, but we can't know that for certain, so we should always assume a worst case scenario (i.e. pessimism will be useful when designing this specification :) > > Certainly more cpu cycles are needed for conversion and image file size is > > larger, but we need a readable format > > But the data describing all aspects of disk image would be readable by a > human; it's only the raw data itself that wouldn't be - for both > efficiency and for ease of use. The driving force for having This is a point that needs to be highlighted. These images are meant to be human readable, first and foremost. Machine readable is a secondary concern. We know there will definitely be humans in the future (and if not then who cares about this anyway). There will probably be machines. Said machines may not be useful to the task of decoding these images, so it must be designed with human readability in mind. > human-readable data in the archive is so that it can be reconstructed at > a later date, possibly without any reference to any spec, is it not? If Indeed. > it was guaranteed that a spec was *always* going to be available, having > human-readable data at all wouldn't make much sense as it just > introduces bloat; a pure binary format would be better. Correct. So even if the spec was lost, people (who could read English at least) would be able to figure out how to reconstruct the image from the archive. > I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the > original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - > all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra > conversion step into the decode process. But it also makes it human readable, and readable in any standard text editor. Mixing binary data in with human readable data in a format that's meant, first and foremost, to be human readable is antithetical to the idea. > As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size of > your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may be). > That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a big > waste to me :-( Nope. Not a waste. Essential. > Yep, I'm with you there. CRC's are a nice idea. Question: does it make > sense to make CRC info a compulsory section in the archive file? Does it Yes. It's only one or two added bytes at the end of each data segment. > make sense to have it always present, given that it's *likely* that > these archive files will only ever be transferred from place to place > using modern hardware? I'm not sure. If you're spitting data across a > buggy serial link, then the CRC info is nice to have - but maybe it > should be an optional inclusion rather than mandatory, so that in a lot > of cases archive size can be kept down? (and the assumption made that > there exists source code / spec for a utility to add CRC info to an > existing archive file if desired) It doesn't hurt. It only adds negligible overhead. Certainly something to discuss more. I would make the specification unassuming about anything like this. For example, say there is an optional CRC feature. I would make the default for the image be that there was no CRC added to the data segments, unless a meta tag was included in the header explicitly specifying that CRCs are added. This makes it ever so slightly easier to decode the image data by someone who knows nothing of the spec. No assumptions are made regarding what people in the future will know about these images. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 11 13:14:56 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD2@mail10.congressfinancial.com> I don't mean "machine address" but rather some sort of block address on the media. I was thinking more on the lines of how data sectors on a hard drive are numbered...not CHS numbering but "absolute sector" numbering from 0 to something. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an Intel snob). > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would hope that 4gb would > be enough, at least for now, to represent the largest of the media types we > want to represent. The data should be structured in a way where address size does not even come into consideration. Why would we encode platform specific information into a media archive? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:16:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235914.9446.120.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 14:37, Cini, Richard wrote: > > Dave: > > > > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an Intel snob). > > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would hope that 4gb would > > be enough, at least for now, to represent the largest of the media types we > > want to represent. > > I don't know about 4GB, but I'd really like to archive hard disk images > in the 20-30MB range using the same format if possible... Again, this doesn't matter in the spec. Data of *any* size will be able to be represented, whether it's two bits or forty terabytes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:20:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411A44C7.403@srv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Kevin Handy wrote: > I'd believe that ZIP archives will be well known in the future, due to > the large number of software products using it right now, and the > length of time is has existed so far. (Famous last words?) > > The compression methods are fairly well known, and there exist several > open source libraries to handle it, aswell as being embeded in many new > projects. People are welcome to create archives of zipped images, but that should be something not even addressed in the spec. The spec defines how the image will be represented. How people choose to store the images is outside the scope of the spec. > Binary data is usually encoded in an XML file into a some type of text: > base64, hex/octal, etc. You don't want actual raw binary data embeded > in an XML document. Agreed. Using Base64 would be nice to further reduce the data size, and should be considered. I like the idea of using hex because it's well-known and therefore very easy to decode. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 11 13:30:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Selam, Any scheme of data representation is going to have a mthod of identifing the position of the data within the stream. At the minimal the archive would consist of every byte in the stream. Since there is the potential for loarge areast of "no-data", previous posters suggested using the intel format which consists of an offset [address] and a number of data bytes represented in ascii hex characters. If a scheme of this nature is going to be used then a certain number of (hex) digits will be needed to specify the offset in the stream. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:00 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: >>> >>> > I tend to forget about the Motorola format (call me an >>> Intel snob). >>> > The 16mb would be enough for many systems, and I would >>> hope that 4gb >>> > would be enough, at least for now, to represent the >>> largest of the >>> > media types we want to represent. >>> >>> The data should be structured in a way where address size >>> does not even come into consideration. Why would we encode >>> platform specific information into a media archive? >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 11 13:22:40 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: If someone is going to make the effort to decode the information from the original computer media into the archive standard then if the data is 10 or 100 times larger than the original should not be an issue. The same is true for costs. I have seen too many systems where there was a perceived decision that it would be too costly to "do it right". The idea is to take a copy of a program or data and convert it/archive it once and know that it is then saved. Think of the following; Stone once was expensive so clay tablets were used. Papyrus was expensive so wax tablets were used At one time paper was too expensive so it was not used chalk on a board was used instead. Later pulp paper was cheaper and acid free paper was expensive. Punch cards once were cheap Mark Sense forms Magnetic tape Magnetic disk Optical disk CD-ROM DVD The "best" real long-term media that I can think of is "eye ball" readable. Think Rosetta stone. Do you want to use Big-Indian, Little-Indian, Intel, Motorola, Cyrillic, cuneiform, hieroglyphs, binary, hex, octal RAD50, left-to-right, right-to-left, Chinese, Japanese, English, Pig Latin, Latin, Spanish, Old English, Old Latin, Norse, Mayan or Esperanto? I have heard that the Mormon Church is using iridium disks inscribed with an ion writer, it may take a magnifying glass but it's readable. It's supposed to last 1,000 years. This may be slightly sacrilegious. We will then need a "priesthood" of fanatical zealots to protect the archived data for posterity. I nominate Sellam to be the patron saint of data retention. Tony can be the patron saint of hardware restoration. I'll be friar Mike hunched over a lectern transcribing data with an ion writer. Mike From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:28:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408111057.47938.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the > > original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - > > all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra > > conversion step into the decode process. > > Again, producing paper copies of stuff with non-printable characters > becomes "problematic". Another point worth highlighting. The image files should be readily printable, so that a complete image could be recovered by "manual OCR" (i.e. typing it in) from a printed form of the image file. Keep in mind: a printed form of the image file, on the right physical medium, will probably outlast any magnetic or optical media. > > As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size > > of your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may > > be). That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a > > big waste to me :-( > > Then use uuencode or similar that does a bit less wasteful conversion. > Anyways, the only computer media type where KB/in^2 (or KB/in^3) isn't > increasing rapidly is paper. I like the idea of Base64, because it's something that can still be readily decoded manually by a human (converting between number bases is easy once you understand the concept). I'm not knowledgeable as to how the uuencode format is encoded. The type of encoding used could be specified as a meta tag, perhaps even per each data segment. Say it would be more efficient to encode the data in hex for one part and then Base64 for another. Each part would have a meta tag added describing which base was used for the encoding. Just an idea... > I don't really understand why you're quite so concerned about archive > size bloat, at least over things like CRC's (which if applied liberally > might add a 4% bloat in size) or plain-text encoding (which would add > between 33% to about 100% to the size). I'd rather give up some > efficiency in this case for ensuring that the data is stored correctly, > and can be properly read (and easily decoded) in 50+ years. Exactly. Given the current trends of hard drives, image filesize is not an issue. Human readability is the prime concern. Of course, if a file is too large to be, say, printed (practically) onto paper, that could also be problematic. Again, this is getting back to the issue of a perpetual media, which is a separate project. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 11 02:45:28 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:57:26 MDT." <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200408110745.IAA25660@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ben franchuk said: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely public > > domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include > > the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088. > > Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O > supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a > version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it. > Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block, > write disk block I think is all that is needed. > Ben. Versions of FIGForth were available for quite a few processors. I've got it running on simh emulating a PDP-11 and I'll copy it to my Micro 11/73 as soon as I can persuade it to read floppys written by putr. I'm running it under RT-11 but it can be compiled to run stand-alone. It's quite possible that FigUK may have a FIG listing in their library and I've possibly got a TRS-80 version somewhere. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 11 13:29:55 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> This example represents the block data using metatags...I guess along the "XML" part of the thread. I was thinking similarly to you but not using XML metadata: ;Hardware descriptor MFGR MACHINE SUBTYPE DRIVETYPE (this of course defines what follows) ;for floppy DRIVESIZE ENCODING TRACKS SECTORS SECTSIZE ;HexData ; Each record or group of records contains the related media data. The address record would be used for encoding the metadata 00TTSSHH: (00-track-sector-head) I looked to Intel Hex (or Motorola) because it had built-in CRC facilities and it was human-readable ASCII. The drive and machine description could be encoded in special MOT records probably. XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any other technology like XML. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive would be. Will the > archive be used to (1) re-generate original media; (2) operate with > emualtors; (3) both? Both. Emulators will certainly be able to make use of the archive by having parsers built-in that can translate the archive data into something the emulator can use. So instead of point the emulator to a binary disk image, you would point it to an archive file and it would translate the file back into tracks/sectors, or punch cards, or whatever. > To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording the data in the > Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to > modify the standard format a bit to accommodate a larger address space and > to add some sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This data > would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the stream of data read from > the data area (the "Hex Block"). I think you're thinking of this in terms of a large binary file encoded as ASCII hex. If so, this is not what's being proposed. What is being discussed is a format which actually describes the physical medium. For example, on floppy: Apple ][ System Disk HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 ... HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 > I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want > represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean "well, it > has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to > the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). Seeing > how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how > we should represent it. I agree. This would be useful. Does someone want to volunteer to do this? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:32:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811111559.049b6fe0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Different systems interpret binary data differently, especially if there is > human-readable code within the file. MS-DOS very likely could think the > file is binary, and the first hex 0x06 would terminate the file. However, > if it is considered binary many viewers wouldn't open it if it's got > non-printable ASCII characters within. > > Or -- how about transferring this file from MS-DOS <=> Linux <=> MacOS <=> > BeOS ... will it (and if so, how will it) convert line ending chars, tabs & > other binary chars? A hex representation will reduce conversion problems > measurably - remember, this is supposed to be an "ultra-portable" format. All very good points, which is why binary data should not be included. > If we're already going to take this "beyond" the spec, couldn't we > institute some RLE encoding as well? The spec will definitely benefit from some sort of compression feature that can be implemented using tags, as was described previously. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:32:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411A4A57.1080506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Also timing needs to be done too of the media. A laser hole in the disk > could rely on software timer that is interupted when the floppy disk > controler gets a I/O error. I know the Color Computer uses software and > hardware wait instruction to do the dma transfer, and other sneeky > stuff. Also what about a drum memory where the timeing track needs to > recorded. Interesting. Worth keeping in mind. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 11 13:31:38 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD4@mail10.congressfinancial.com> I forgot to answer one part of the original post. If you need someone to act as the consolidator of the media data, I can do that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive would be. Will the > archive be used to (1) re-generate original media; (2) operate with > emualtors; (3) both? Both. Emulators will certainly be able to make use of the archive by having parsers built-in that can translate the archive data into something the emulator can use. So instead of point the emulator to a binary disk image, you would point it to an archive file and it would translate the file back into tracks/sectors, or punch cards, or whatever. > To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording the data in the > Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to > modify the standard format a bit to accommodate a larger address space and > to add some sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This data > would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the stream of data read from > the data area (the "Hex Block"). I think you're thinking of this in terms of a large binary file encoded as ASCII hex. If so, this is not what's being proposed. What is being discussed is a format which actually describes the physical medium. For example, on floppy: Apple ][ System Disk HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 ... HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 > I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want > represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean "well, it > has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to > the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). Seeing > how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how > we should represent it. I agree. This would be useful. Does someone want to volunteer to do this? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:41:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092242921.9446.158.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe zip's not the ideal example. My point really is that if the > archives are enormous, people are going to be tempted to compress them. > If they compress them, what guarantee is there that a) the compression > method is going to be around when someone totally unrelated wants to > handle these files in x years, and b) is it going to be obvious to > someone in x years what compression method was even used to compress the > file? Yep. Good points. Primarily, the human psychology aspect: large file sizes will compel people to want to compress the images, quite possibly ruining the effort of making the images to begin with. The spec should be designed such that it allows for the smallest filesize possible. > Again, it's back to longevity of the archives themselves. If something's > needed for the short term (next ten years, say), it's not a problem. But > it'd be nice if a future generation, upon discovering one of these > archives, could know exactly what it was (and stand a good chance of > decoding it) just by looking at it (hence the human-readable part) Right. This is the whole reason for designing a spec like this. > Again, I don't like the idea of anything happening to the archive files > after creation though. I suppose the data from the raw device (floppy, > hard disk, whatever) within the archive could be encoded somehow > (leaving the config section as plain-text) - providing it's in a common > enough format that we think someone will be able to find the spec for > the encoding method in x years and so be able to get at the data. That's > somewhat hard to say for sure though! Or at least be able to figure it out. Encoding data in a wider base, such as in hex or Base64, still allows a smart human to figure it out. If we add meta compression, this will also need to be readily decodable by a smart human. > > Again, producing paper copies of stuff with non-printable characters > > becomes "problematic". > > That's actually an extremely good point, and perhaps the best argument > (IMHO) for not using binary data so far :-) Hmmm... Agreed. > Seriously, if there's a good argument for having CRC's in more than x > (50?) percent of cases because corrupted data expected to be a real > possibility, then make them mandatory. If not, then make them an > optional extra. I certainly can't see a good reason why they'll *never* > be needed, that's for sure. I'd make them an optional extra, with the default assuming no CRCs. In fact, the spec should be designed in such a way that as litte as possible is assumed. Any encoding features should have to be explicitly invoked in the image header. > With you on the longevity side of things. Hmm, off the wall suggestion, > but it's only the storage format for the raw data that's an issue, > right? So does it make sense to define both binary and ASCII > representation as valid storage formats, and the format in use within a > particular archive is recorded as a parameter within the human-readable > config section? I still don't like it. As Roger M. pointed out, what will the binary data look like after it's been paraded through several different platforms? > In this way those wanting compact archives to save space, run against > various existing utilities etc. can have them containing binary data; > those who think they need ASCII representation of the data due to tool > or transmission medium limitations can use that format - all whilst > maintining compatibility with the spec. (potentially the 'encoding > method' parameter could include other defined types - uuencode, base64 > etc. but let's not get ahead of ourselves...) I'd rather give the option of being able to specify which text-based encoding scheme was used (i.e. base16, base64, etc.) > (funny how someone mentioned IFF files earlier; I keep on thinking of > TIFF images where the data's structured and the format both versioned > and maintained under strict control) So it should be with this specification. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 13:44:28 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408111844.LAA02309@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, John Foust wrote: > >> Astounding! Will that computer never die? And I say that >> as someone who Believed, '85-92. > >The Amiga is still going strong in some circles. More power to them. > >> I'm tempted to say that we should leave copy protection >> hacks out of the spec for now, but if it was extensible, >> that would be great. > >Yes, copy protection will defintely be able to be described naturally in >the specification I have in mind. The spec should be able to define >several layers of bit storage: logical (files, directories, etc.), byte >(e.g. tracks, sectors), and raw (bit streams). In this way, copy >protection schemes can be preserved by storing the image in the raw >format. > >This will of course have to be thought out, and it may not even be >included in the first revision of the spec, but as I declared originally, >the spec will be extensible. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Hi Sellam I can understand the need for both raw bit stream and extracted data. I propose that it should always include both types of information. The raw bits are needed to actually rebuild a particular format but often the information in the data is all that one needs to extract. In the case of the H8/89, we have working machines to read and write the format. We just need the data that fills the sectors. In the case of the H8/89, I've written a bootstrap that can be entered through the monitor commands. In some cases, the machine has no monitor or bootstrapping method. In these cases, it would be necessary to create the disk on another machine. Having the raw bits of clock and data would then be valuable. I'm currently looking at using a DSP chip to extract raw data from disk. The biggest problem so far is that one needs to do one of two things. One either needs to extract clocking operations with something like a PLL or simply oversample the bit stream from the drive. To do the PLL method, one needs to understand the disk format used and have hardware to handle that particular format. The oversampling has the advantage that one can capture all that is needed and post process it to normalize the data. The disadvantage here is that it takes a lot of data space. The DSP chip I'm looking at doesn't have enough RAM space to capture an entire track. Capturing track fragments has the issue that one needs realign things later. Knowing when the two fragments are properly connected is not easy. It looks like the newer DSP chips do have enough speed to capture raw data with little or no external hardware. This means that one can get one of the manufacture's development boards ( usually in the $50-$150 range ) and wire it up to the disk drive by connector. The disadvantage here is that as newer chips come out, the older development boards are obsoleted. Still, having the raw data means that one can recreate the disk in the future, with some effort. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:46:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411A5545.3040405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > Provisions for changing technology and loss of continuity are good, > but we still need to draw the line at some point, especially concerning > "external" archival of the archived data, i.e. zipped arcives and > storage media. To go to an extreme example, even printed ASCII on paper > or mylar isn't reliable. Paper may be just as archaic as hieroglyphics > when the data is wanted. > > We have to depend on ongoing maintenance of these archives. If they > are not periodically migrated to current media, and if the > attached/imbedded documentation is not augmented to account for social > and technical "loss of memory", future retrieval will be difficult, if > not impossible, no matter what we do now. That's where the Longnow Foundation may be able to play a rather significant part in the development of this specification. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:51:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <22541322.1092246021495.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > Keeping an image file in an error checked ascii file in a purely > sequential form seems to me to not rely on any technology or special > information other than accessing a pure data file from some type of > computer system. As someone else suggested, ascii text could even be > contained in archive files to explain how to get teh data back. My > thought of having the data accessible as well as the formatting > information would allow a single transmission of a group of files to be > sent with information contained within to either get just the data or be > able to actually create media copies. Steve, Please refer to my previous message where I posted an example of the markup language I had in mind. If I'm reading you correctly, you are thinking of this in terms of a byte stream, which is not the case. The archive format we're discussing describes the media that is being archived quite explicitly (for example, in terms of tracks and sectors in the case of disks). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 13:53:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <14438856.1092246776929.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I know a three section approach that I was proposing is more > complicated, but from a code standpoint allows total freedom of data > access without having to create a target media let alone have the > computer system to then read the media just to get at the data that was > on a floppy disk. The beauty is that if you need to create a Northstar > system diskette then you can, but if all you need is a copy of the > dump.asm program then you can get that also without having to go any > further than the file you started with. What you're discussing here are binary images. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:00:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <27894111.1092247841546.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media > re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just > using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a > file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the > physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. That is the point, really. What we are attempting to do is describe as faithfully as possible a physical media with logical data in a purely logical form. The goal would be that the physical media could be re-created from the imagefile if need be. The parameters of the physcial media are specified so that this can be possible. > My earlier point of separating the data and the format information > allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one > described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be > "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS > or the platform. I'm not quite understanding you here. Or maybe I am. An image in the format shown below could be read by any emulator. Making sense of the data with respect to that emulator is a different issue altogether, but it does make it possible for, say, a Northstar Horizon emulator to load up an Apple ][ disk image and then try to access it. Anyway, I don't think I am quite getting the point you are trying to make. > SECTORS=16 SECTORSIZE=256> > > Apple ][ System Disk > > > > > > > > HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 > > > > ... > > > > HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 > > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:01:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD2@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > I don't mean "machine address" but rather some sort of block address on the > media. I was thinking more on the lines of how data sectors on a hard drive > are numbered...not CHS numbering but "absolute sector" numbering from 0 to > something. I see. That's still specifiable in the spec. Rather than having and tags, you could have tags. This, again, is something to be hashed out when the spec is actually developed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 14:03:52 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040811115527.O16212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > . . . You could end up with files that could > never fit on the medium they describe, > . . . > One suggestion... for the data portion of sectors/tracks/etc... let's spec > in a run-length encoding scheme so large portions of unused media compress > down really tightly (lots of zeros, or in the case of a real 1541 disc, > lots of hex 0x01s). If it's XMLish, it could look like '01' > or some such. Initially, I was uncomfortable about the added complications involved in compression. But,... the ability to store an image on the same kind of media that it was created from is a MAJOR bonus. Consider that there are some machines for which their basic floppy media is the ONLY practical way [short of Dyna-Typer] to get data or disk images into them. Therefore, an important extension to consider would be any form of lossless compression. LZW would be good for the entire image file, but not well suited for compression in individual blocks. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Aug 11 14:06:34 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:05 2005 Subject: Osborne / TRS-80 III wanted for British TV show- can you help? In-Reply-To: <20040810182336.R2386@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040810235159.35462.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> <20040810182336.R2386@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <411A6E3A.1040008@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > For "old British technology...circa 1980", wouldn't > an Amstrad be more appropriate? The Amstrads are a few years younger than that, actually. In 1980, you'd be able to get an Acorn, Sinclair or Tangerine system, or you could buy a Compukit UK101 in kit form. Then there's the Nascom, Research Machines, and possibly a few others. I've got in touch with the original poster, BTW. The company's previous series was called Look Around You, and I think it featured a Commodore PET 2001. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 11 14:09:44 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AC5@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811150720.04d9ccf0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want > > represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean > "well, it > > has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to > > the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). > Seeing > > how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how > > we should represent it. > >I agree. This would be useful. Does someone want to volunteer to do >this? I'll volunteer. Short-term, I'll prolly keep a spreadsheet with the relevant data & publish it to PDF for the web -- long(er) term would be setting up a PostgreSQL Database & either a Python or ColdFusion web-frontend so people could search (and possibly modify) the info on the fly... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 14:10:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408111910.MAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Nether of these formats is totally a match for what we need. These are all just data image formats for bits. None of these describe the format of the bits. We can use the parts of these specifications we like but what ever we use will still be embedded as part of a larger file format. As Sellam says, that format needs to be extendable to handle anything that comes along. Both Intel HEX and Motorola S formats are such a small part of the picture. One thing that could be done but I'm sure many will think I'm crazy. If the files contained OpenBoot source code to describe the data, one can then create almost anything one wants. This would be something like how postscript files are done now. These file would have code that would transform the data into whatever format the user needed. One could extract the bit stream to feed as raw information to a drive or simply extract the sector data. Using something like OpenBoot code has the advantage that the source is human readable, just as postscript is human readable ( although tedious ). There could be some guide lines on standard ways to describe common formats. These would also help other describe more obscure formats. We need to remember that what normally comes out of a floppy controller chip is not the actual data on the disk. The information on the disk is a more complex. It contains things like special marks for indexing, headers and even errors. These need to be represented as well. We need to be looking at capturing the raw data from the disk. And at methods of post processing this to a form similar to what comes from the floppy controller. Dwight >From: "David V. Corbin" > >You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. >The only reason I suggest this is the motorola format alread has a (semi) >extensible record type description [the second char of each line]. > >S2 and S3 are already defined for 16MB and 4GB memory spaces... > >A (non-standard) record type "could" be used for media format, etc... > >Just my 16.3875 milli-EUR comment... > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:02 AM >>>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>>> >>>> I haven't read the entire thread on this but I did read >>>> Steve Thatcher's idea and it describes about where I was >>>> coming out on this myself. >>>> >>>> I might have missed what the ultimate use of this archive >>>> would be. Will the archive be used to (1) re-generate >>>> original media; (2) operate with emualtors; (3) both? >>>> >>>> To ensure integrity of the data I would propose recording >>>> the data in the Intel Hex format -- it's text-based and has >>>> built-in CRC. Now, we'd have to modify the standard format >>>> a bit to accommodate a larger address space and to add some >>>> sort of standardized header (a "Hardware Descriptor"). This >>>> data would be used by the de-archiver to interpret the >>>> stream of data read from the data area (the "Hex Block"). >>>> >>>> I agree that a multi-layer approach offers the best >>>> combination of platform neutrality and portability. I don't >>>> really know if we need two or three layers as Steve >>>> described to describe the file in a standard fashion. Using >>>> an Intel Hex-like format would increase the "de-archiving" >>>> time, but in my view it's a fair trade-off. De-archiving >>>> software could translate the platform-neutral file into >>>> another format better suited for use in emulators. >>>> >>>> I think that we should start compiling a list of the >>>> various media we want represented and how that media is >>>> organized natively. I don't mean "well, it has blocks and >>>> sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to >>>> the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes >>>> recorded twice"). Seeing how the various data stores are >>>> organized should bring some clarity to how we should represent it. >>>> >>>> Just my $0.02. >>>> >>>> Rich >>>> > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:13:37 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > At the minimal the archive would consist of every byte in the stream. Since > there is the potential for loarge areast of "no-data", previous posters > suggested using the intel format which consists of an offset [address] and a > number of data bytes represented in ascii hex characters. Ok, I see now. This makes absolute sense. It also somewhat effects a form of implicit compression, which is good. By explicitly specifying where the data goes on the medium, you could then leave out any sections that are just zeroes. HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly designed, may crap out. Hmmm. One way around this is to parse the imagefile into memory first, and then have the emulator use the memory image as a virtual disk drive. Hmmm. Definitely something to discuss more. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 14:18:53 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408111918.MAA02328@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >As for file size, if encoding as hex that at least doubles the size of >your archive file compared to the original media (whatever it may be). >That's assuming no padding between hex characters. Seems like a big >waste to me :-( > ---snip--- >Jules > > Hi It mightseem a waste but i would expect to see a proper archive file to be 200% to 500% larger than the original data. Having the data in something that can be printed directly on paper is a must. This means something like HEX values or binary or whatever. Still, anything as non-printable bits is useless. JMHO Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:19:38 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408111844.LAA02309@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I can understand the need for both raw bit stream and extracted > data. I propose that it should always include both types of information. > The raw bits are needed to actually rebuild a particular format > but often the information in the data is all that one needs to extract. > In the case of the H8/89, we have working machines to read and write > the format. We just need the data that fills the sectors. In the case Sure. You can always take the imagefile and process it into a binary file that you then upload to the machine. I am not liking the concept of mixing ASCII and binary. > of the H8/89, I've written a bootstrap that can be entered through > the monitor commands. In some cases, the machine has no monitor or > bootstrapping method. In these cases, it would be necessary to create > the disk on another machine. Having the raw bits of clock and data > would then be valuable. Sure, and this can still be encoded and then decoded on whatever target machine makes the most sense. > The disadvantage here is that as newer chips come out, the older > development boards are obsoleted. Still, having the raw data means > that one can recreate the disk in the future, with some effort. I envision that the spec will allow data at the raw bit level to be encoded as well. The meta tags in the header of the imagefile will then describe the what the data actually is. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:22:39 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "McFadden, Mike" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > Think of the following; > Stone once was expensive so clay tablets were used. > Papyrus was expensive so wax tablets were used ... Time to start making a list of media types! Paper Media (Paper-tape, bar-code, etc...) Punch-Card (Hollerinth, etc...) Magnetic Tape (9-Track, DAT, DDS, Audio Cassette, DEC TK, DLT, HP Magstrips, 1/4", 1/2", etc...) Disk packs Exotic permanent memories (Core, Bubble, etc...) Magnetic hard drives (Drum, Winchester, DEC, DASD, HP, MFM, RLL, IDE, SCSI, SATA, etc...) Removable hard drives (Bernoulli, ZIP, Jaz, Syquest, Magneto-optical, etc...) Cartridge/ROM memories (ROMs, PROMs, EPROMS, EEPROMs, BIOS chips, game carts, computer carts, etc...) Floppy disks (2", 3.5", 5.25", 8", Apple Twiggy, Commodore, Soft/hard sectored, multiple densities, Copy protected/bad sectored) Flash-RAM devices (USB/Firewire/PCMCIA, disk-on-chip, CompactFlash, SD, MMC, Memory stick etc...) Optical media (WORM, Laserdisc, CDROM, CD-RW, CDi, CDA, DVD, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW, DVD-RW, etc...) What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM and call it done? What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video, which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?) From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:23:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > This example represents the block data using metatags...I guess along the > "XML" part of the thread. > > I was thinking similarly to you but not using XML metadata: > > ;Hardware descriptor > MFGR > MACHINE > SUBTYPE > DRIVETYPE (this of course defines what follows) > ;for floppy > DRIVESIZE > ENCODING > TRACKS > SECTORS > SECTSIZE > ;HexData > ; Each record or group of records contains the related media data. The > address record would be used for encoding the metadata > 00TTSSHH: (00-track-sector-head) > > I looked to Intel Hex (or Motorola) because it had built-in CRC facilities > and it was human-readable ASCII. The drive and machine description could be > encoded in special MOT records probably. I like the XML style because it's more explicit; more human-readable. > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > other technology like XML. XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 14:26:47 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <16666.7347.687000.11477@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16665.25999.641479.474123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16666.7347.687000.11477@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040811121556.Q16212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > To look at it differently -- if you handed someone a CDROM, and a > stack of standards describing it (ISO 9660, the Red Book, etc.) but no > computer and no CDROM drive, is that person likely to have enough > information to recover the data on the disk? I expect the answer is > "no, not even close". If they have retained sufficient technological competence (not another "dark ages"), and IFF the need is enough to warrant devoting enough resources to the project, then YES. Neither a CDROM, nor a floppy drive, is a particularly difficult item to build with appropriate facilities. But "enough resources" might indeed be fairly extreme, and one goal is to reduce the amount of resources needed. 'course they could always send a time traveller, and in addition to the 5100, have him make another stop (at FRY's??) to shop for some hardware. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:26:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811150720.04d9ccf0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: > >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > > > I think that we should start compiling a list of the various media we want > > > represented and how that media is organized natively. I don't mean > > "well, it > > > has blocks and sectors" either. We should examine the exact format down to > > > the actual numbers (i.e., "2048 blocks of 256-bytes recorded twice"). > > Seeing > > > how the various data stores are organized should bring some clarity to how > > > we should represent it. > > > >I agree. This would be useful. Does someone want to volunteer to do > >this? > > I'll volunteer. Short-term, I'll prolly keep a spreadsheet with the > relevant data & publish it to PDF for the web -- long(er) term would be > setting up a PostgreSQL Database & either a Python or ColdFusion > web-frontend so people could search (and possibly modify) the info on the > fly... Ok, I anoint thee. Go forth and catalogue :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 14:29:00 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040809010841.00ae10f8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 09, 2004 01:16:32 AM Message-ID: <200408111929.i7BJT00X020356@onyx.spiritone.com> > They have 18 & 20 lb. greenbar paper, 8.5" and 11" deep, narrow & > widecarriage (in each) and they even carry carbonless 2-part! Prices range > from $33/carton to $90/carton. SWEET! I've been wanting a box or two of 8.5" wide greenbar for my PDP-11/73's LA75. I just might have to order a box. > Dunno if the prices are any good or not, but I did notice their "over $25 > order gets free shipping" banner prominently displayed - I'm sure shipping > this schtuff ain't cheap, so it might be a decent deal... Shipping is what scares me, but it appears that there aren't any exceptions. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 14:31:49 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040811123111.G16212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. OK, the header is also going to have to have an Endian flag! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 14:33:23 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: List problems? Message-ID: <200408111933.i7BJXNe8020472@onyx.spiritone.com> Have there been any sort of list problems? I noticed a couple days ago that I'd not gotten any messages since Saturday, but hadn't had time to do anything about it. Well, about 370 so far just showed up. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:32:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408111910.MAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > One thing that could be done but I'm sure many will think > I'm crazy. If the files contained OpenBoot source code to describe > the data, one can then create almost anything one wants. I'm not familiar with OpenBoot. Can you explain this a bit more? > We need to remember that what normally comes out of a floppy > controller chip is not the actual data on the disk. The information > on the disk is a more complex. It contains things like special > marks for indexing, headers and even errors. These need to > be represented as well. We need to be looking at capturing the > raw data from the disk. And at methods of post processing this > to a form similar to what comes from the floppy controller. There are multiple levels at which someone may want to archive a medium. There's the physical level, as you describe above. Then there's the level in between physical and logical, which is, to use the example of floppy disks again, tracks and sectors. And then there's the logical level which is an actual filesystem with a directory and filenames, etc. This spec should be designed to be able to handle all three types simultaneously within the same image file. What I mean is that it might be useful to have (to use a floppy disk as an example again) most of the disk encoded in a track/sector representation, but then have one particular track encoded at a bit level, because perhaps it contains special signatures that are part of a copy protection scheme. If the image is ever used to re-create the original physical disk, the binary data will be essential if the disk is going to actually be expected to work (unless the copy protection scheme is removed at that point). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:34:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408111918.MAA02328@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > It mightseem a waste but i would expect to see a proper archive > file to be 200% to 500% larger than the original data. Having the > data in something that can be printed directly on paper is a > must. This means something like HEX values or binary or whatever. > Still, anything as non-printable bits is useless. Agreed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 14:37:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM and call > it done? I thought about that. In that case, I'd be inclined to store it as either a byte stream (since writing it back out to the original medium will mean recording it back to tape) or as level transitions or tones. Again, the spec should be able to handle this. > What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video, > which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these > corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive > storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?) Hmmm. This will certainly have to be argued out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 14:39:24 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: RT-11 / PDP-11 Software Users In-Reply-To: <56232.216.218.236.136.1091665067.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> from "pzachary@sasquatch.com" at Aug 04, 2004 05:17:47 PM Message-ID: <200408111939.i7BJdPcL020668@onyx.spiritone.com> > having a pdp-11/40 on my desk is pretty cool... and I've gotten rid of > most of my pc software, so until I can find a unibus cdrom controller I'm > a bit out of luck. I've not verified that it will work, but a Viking UDT with new enough ROM's should be able to drive a CD-ROM. I've had both an DEC RRD-42, and Plextor 6x, and 8x drives attached to my Viking QDT. While my /44 has a Viking UDT controller in it, it is currently buried in my folks garage for the forseeable future. Also, I don't see any reason why the disk only version of the board wouldn't work. Zane From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:41:00 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > That's where the Longnow Foundation may be able to play a rather > significant part in the development of this specification. If it were up to them the spec would be encoded in integer-binary form on a string of beryllium-cobalt-copper links, fed into a giant water-powered mechanical difference engine tabulation computer to reproduce the works on stainless steel discs in any number of base-n numbering systems :) This article from them pretty much sums it up. http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/library.htm Cool bunch of people. I saw them on Big Thinkers back when TechTV was good. Now it's time to write up my idea for the Long Now clock... Is it me or do many of these look like the time controller machine in Tomb Raider (The Movie)? http://www.longnow.org/10kclock/clockother.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 14:41:11 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092235807.9446.117.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040811123558.S16212@shell.lmi.net> > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 13:13, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > I would encode binary data as hex to keep everything ascii. Data size would expand, > > but the data would also be compressable so things could be kept in ZIP files of > > whatever choice a person would want to for their archiving purposes. On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > "could be kept" in zip files, yes - but then that's no use in 50 years > time if someone stumbles across a compressed file and has no idea how to > decompress it in order to read it and see what it is :-) Keeping documentation with them of how LZW compression works would not be hard, and writing the decompression routines is not very hard. But if you want to keep it VERY simple, then just include a run-length-encoding, instead of LZW. > Hence keeping the archive small would seem sensible so that it can be > left as-is without any compression. My wild guesstimate on archive size > would be to aim for 110 - 120% of the raw data size if possible... > > But the data describing all aspects of disk image would be readable by a > human; it's only the raw data itself that wouldn't be - for both > efficiency and for ease of use. The driving force for having > human-readable data in the archive is so that it can be reconstructed at > a later date, possibly without any reference to any spec, is it not? If > it was guaranteed that a spec was *always* going to be available, having > human-readable data at all wouldn't make much sense as it just > introduces bloat; a pure binary format would be better. A human readable form is not going to hit your goal of 110 - 120% unless there is SOME form of compression. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 11 14:41:13 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD8@mail10.congressfinancial.com> >>XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? Yes, true, but I think of XML more as a Web technology requiring a complex parsing engine. I'm not a Web programmer so my thoughts on XML are probably somewhat broken. Another comment was made about the difference between what's actually on the media versus what the CPU actually sees. We would thus need to capture the raw data stream from the "heads" side of the controller in order to regenerate a usable original media from the metafile. For emulator use, we can grind this metafile through a translation program to get the bytestream. OR, the metafile could contain both types of data (using the container file and metadirectory idea from earlier). What we really need is PDF for magnetic media :-) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > This example represents the block data using metatags...I guess along the > "XML" part of the thread. > > I was thinking similarly to you but not using XML metadata: > > ;Hardware descriptor > MFGR > MACHINE > SUBTYPE > DRIVETYPE (this of course defines what follows) > ;for floppy > DRIVESIZE > ENCODING > TRACKS > SECTORS > SECTSIZE > ;HexData > ; Each record or group of records contains the related media data. The > address record would be used for encoding the metadata > 00TTSSHH: (00-track-sector-head) > > I looked to Intel Hex (or Motorola) because it had built-in CRC facilities > and it was human-readable ASCII. The drive and machine description could be > encoded in special MOT records probably. I like the XML style because it's more explicit; more human-readable. > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > other technology like XML. XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:46:02 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:23 PM Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > > other technology like XML. > > XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? It usually is. But the beauty of eXtensible Markup Language is that it's... extensible! :) http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-unicode-xml-20030613/ From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 15:05:37 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <991107.1092254738090.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> XML is platform neutral, ascii and provides a structure to information rather than just an INI file type of dump - the start and end keywords let you define as many sub structures as you need. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:23 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > This example represents the block data using metatags...I guess along the > "XML" part of the thread. > > I was thinking similarly to you but not using XML metadata: > > ;Hardware descriptor > MFGR > MACHINE > SUBTYPE > DRIVETYPE (this of course defines what follows) > ;for floppy > DRIVESIZE > ENCODING > TRACKS > SECTORS > SECTSIZE > ;HexData > ; Each record or group of records contains the related media data. The > address record would be used for encoding the metadata > 00TTSSHH: (00-track-sector-head) > > I looked to Intel Hex (or Motorola) because it had built-in CRC facilities > and it was human-readable ASCII. The drive and machine description could be > encoded in special MOT records probably. I like the XML style because it's more explicit; more human-readable. > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > other technology like XML. XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 15:07:13 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811111559.049b6fe0@mail.30below.com> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040811111559.049b6fe0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040811125554.X16212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Different systems interpret binary data differently, especially if there is > human-readable code within the file. MS-DOS very likely could think the > file is binary, and the first hex 0x06 would terminate the file. However, I don't think so. 06h is a PUSH ES command, which is valid in programs/binary files. My .EXE and .COM files that use that instruction do NOT terminate prematurely. But your point is still valid, in that a 1Ah (^Z) byte WILL cause many text processing utilities to terminate processing of a text file in MS-DOS or CP/M. > Or -- how about transferring this file from MS-DOS <=> Linux <=> MacOS <=> > BeOS ... will it (and if so, how will it) convert line ending chars, tabs & > other binary chars? A hex representation will reduce conversion problems > measurably - remember, this is supposed to be an "ultra-portable" format. That's why any reading of a binary file, or an alien text file, must fopen in "RAW" mode! > If we're already going to take this "beyond" the spec, couldn't we > institute some RLE encoding as well? Many folks seem to think that a .ZIP file is unreadable, and impossible to write replacements readers, if the now existing utilities aren't available. (as opposed to files on a ZIP disk, where none of the drives can be expected to remain working.) From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Aug 11 15:17:02 2004 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? In-Reply-To: <200408100234.WAA06944@wordstock.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040809010841.00ae10f8@mail.30below.com> <200408100234.WAA06944@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20040811201702.GA23136@RawFedDogs.net> On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 10:34:46PM -0400, Bryan Pope wrote: > > That said, what I *have* been looking for (and google turned up nothing > > the last 3 times I checked) is a set of: > > > > Greenbar Bedsheets. Would that be 80 column for twin, 132 column for king? What size would queen be? I'd grab a set of 132 column breenbar bedsheets if I ever come across any. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 15:28:07 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <31044745.1092256087750.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> no, I have only talked about data represented in xml ascii, that has three distinct sections. A overall structure that contains author, and other info. A data section that contains multiple data blocks with subsections that are identified as files, and finally, a third which describes the physical arrangement of the data blocks on some type of media. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 11, 2004 2:53 PM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I know a three section approach that I was proposing is more > complicated, but from a code standpoint allows total freedom of data > access without having to create a target media let alone have the > computer system to then read the media just to get at the data that was > on a floppy disk. The beauty is that if you need to create a Northstar > system diskette then you can, but if all you need is a copy of the > dump.asm program then you can get that also without having to go any > further than the file you started with. What you're discussing here are binary images. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 15:27:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD8@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > >>XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > > Yes, true, but I think of XML more as a Web technology requiring a complex > parsing engine. I'm not a Web programmer so my thoughts on XML are probably > somewhat broken. I was deadset against it myself until Hans pointed out its virtues (mainly, human readability). It's not necessarily XML, though it may eventually end up as such. Right now I just see it has a system of tags for specifying characteristics and segmenting data. > Another comment was made about the difference between what's actually on the > media versus what the CPU actually sees. We would thus need to capture the > raw data stream from the "heads" side of the controller in order to > regenerate a usable original media from the metafile. If you're thinking in terms of having the original hardware around to write the imagefile back to its original media (like I have), then getting the data at a logical byte level is adequate. It depends on what your eventual goal is for the image. Is it just to capture the data on the medium so that it can be accessed in the future without regards to whether the original hardware still exists? Or do you intend to be able to reconstruct the physical medium at some point? The spec should be able to handle either case. > For emulator use, we can grind this metafile through a translation program > to get the bytestream. OR, the metafile could contain both types of data > (using the container file and metadirectory idea from earlier). Or it could specify what data it contains, and then you would use it as appropriate. > What we really need is PDF for magnetic media :-) And other media as well (paper, plastic, etc.) That's what we're tyring to do here. Hopefully we don't end up with something as bloated as PDF however :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 15:26:39 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092255998.9446.226.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 18:15, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'm not quite sure what having binary data represented as hex for the > > original disk data gives you over having the raw binary data itself - > > all it seems to do is make the resultant file bigger and add an extra > > conversion step into the decode process. > > But it also makes it human readable, and readable in any standard text > editor. Mixing binary data in with human readable data in a format that's > meant, first and foremost, to be human readable is antithetical to the > idea. Ahh, I was talking about having the binary data as a seperate section in the archive to the human-readable part though for precisely that reason. So, what difference does it make to a human analyst whether the data is stored as hex pairs or binary data? Both need decoding by some process to make them usable. A human eye is no better off viewing a stream of hex digits than they are a stream of arbitary ASCII data. Actually, binary data could possibly be more useful to the human eye in a browsing scenario, as at least the eye can quickly pick out meaningful strings - such as filenames on the original media - from a sea of binary data, without needing to do any decoding. At least viewing a file containing binary data could give a clue as to what it contained if the archive metadata (eg. description) wasn't up to much. As raised earlier though, I do wonder if it's an idea to define several possible encoding methods as part of the spec. Maximum flexibility always seems the key to long-lived data formats, so it perhaps makes a lot of sense to do so anyway. Who's to tell what use such archives might be put to in the future - but if the spec covers a reasonable base for now (with extensibility in mind such that others can be added if needs e in future versions) then everyone's happy, and future generations can always convert between formats as they see fit. Oh, next random thought (which I expect someone's already raised) - the addressing format for the data on the original media needs to be flexible enough to cope with different classes of data. Or rather, I'd expect different addressing classes. For hard disk and floppy archives, head/sector/track seem a logical addressing scheme. But for say a ROM image, there's no concept of head/sector/track; maybe just an index to the data and a length. Maybe someone will want to add scans of documentation pages to an archive, in which case chapter / page addressing is logical. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about what types of information people might want to store in such an archive at this stage - just be aware that the flexibility needs to be there just in case :-) e.g. something like (using vague xml just to get the idea across): 1.00 blah blah blah ... xyz none ... ... ............... {bunch of data in format xxxx} ............... Here the index element's 'type' field gives the type of addressing used, in this case using data blocks split by head / track / sector. An appropriate handler for that type would then take over and actually process the data within the index element accordingly. I used the idea of the media data following the config section here for clarity, but mixing media data with the semantic data in the index section would work too (although I'm starting to realise that doing that is going to make things about as human-readable readable as a typical large HTML file :-) I'd say that important field values like the compression type should always be human-readable rather than a numeric id, just rigidly defined by the spec (e.g. 'none', 'base64' 'uuencode' etc.). That makes life a lot easier for someone potentially looking at this in the future if they don't happen to have a copy of the spec handy! Hmm, I miss the old days of everyone chucking ideas around like this :-) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 15:29:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > > That's where the Longnow Foundation may be able to play a rather > > significant part in the development of this specification. > > If it were up to them the spec would be encoded in integer-binary form on a > string of beryllium-cobalt-copper links, fed into a giant water-powered > mechanical difference engine tabulation computer to reproduce the works on > stainless steel discs in any number of base-n numbering systems :) Well, thank goodness we won't be having them actually develop the spec itself :) What I had in mind with them is to help to put into place a perpetual system of regeneration so that the image library can be updated as long as there are humans around to do so. > Cool bunch of people. I saw them on Big Thinkers back when TechTV was good. > Now it's time to write up my idea for the Long Now clock... Is it me or do > many of these look like the time controller machine in Tomb Raider (The > Movie)? > http://www.longnow.org/10kclock/clockother.htm This is a really cool project that I follow (from time to time) with great interest. I wish I could be more involved but I've already got a million projects going on. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 15:35:09 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040811133145.D16212@shell.lmi.net> > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > At the minimal the archive would consist of every byte in the stream. Since > > there is the potential for loarge areast of "no-data", previous posters > > suggested using the intel format which consists of an offset [address] and a > > number of data bytes represented in ascii hex characters. On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Ok, I see now. This makes absolute sense. It also somewhat effects a > form of implicit compression, which is good. By explicitly specifying > where the data goes on the medium, you could then leave out any sections > that are just zeroes. or E5h? (fill byte for "no data" on CP/M formatting) or F6h? rather than "leave out" any sections that are just zeroes, put in a tag that says "x 00's", "x E5's", etc. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 11 15:40:33 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: What is it? Prometheus Versacard Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040811164033.00981a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what this card is? It appears to be for an Apple II and has two N-cell battery holders on it and a 20 pin and a 26 IDC header along the top edge. Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 15:39:57 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112039.NAA02391@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. My earlier point of separating the data and the format information allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS or the platform. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher Hi Steve You seem to be assuming that the particular disk you are archiving has a file structure. This is not always the case. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 11 15:47:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811123111.G16212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: NOT AT ALL! The formats (intel and motorola) both discuss BYTES. No concepts of larger quantities. No it the "meta data"/"header" what ever is going to expose a different width, this becomes an issue in describing the dataforms. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:32 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. >>> >>> OK, the header is also going to have to have an Endian flag! >>> >>> >>> >>> From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 15:43:59 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092257039.9446.242.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 18:41, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > With you on the longevity side of things. Hmm, off the wall suggestion, > > but it's only the storage format for the raw data that's an issue, > > right? So does it make sense to define both binary and ASCII > > representation as valid storage formats, and the format in use within a > > particular archive is recorded as a parameter within the human-readable > > config section? > > I still don't like it. As Roger M. pointed out, what will the binary data > look like after it's been paraded through several different platforms? Well going back to the image example, it's like trying to ftp a TIFF image to a remote server in ASCII mode. It's going to mess up, but anyone with any smarts either knows not to transfer in that way because it's going to mess up, or they inspect the data and realise that it can't be transferred as ASCII. If people didn't learn by being told something, common sense, or from their mistakes, then we probably all wouldn't still be here :-) Same goes for any line termination issues; archivists would not be daft enough to transfer data from one medium to the next and then destroy the original (or if they did destroy the original, they'd be damned sure that the copy matched the original *exactly* first). Whilst the average person does make silly mistakes and then typically learns from them, I'd expect anyone preserving or dealing with historical data to have a few more smarts about them in the first place! And if someone *does* want to transfer the data between systems and there's *really* no way of turning off features that will mangle binary data - well, that's exactly why we design the spec with lots of flexibility in mind, and they can always convert the data to a different format should they wish. All a question of providing lots of choices whilst keeping within a strict specification so that people can choose what suits them personally I suppose, whilst knowing that the data should still be usable in the future... cheers, Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 15:54:29 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112054.NAA02398@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Cini, Richard" > >This example represents the block data using metatags...I guess along the >"XML" part of the thread. > >I was thinking similarly to you but not using XML metadata: > >;Hardware descriptor >MFGR >MACHINE >SUBTYPE >DRIVETYPE (this of course defines what follows) >;for floppy >DRIVESIZE >ENCODING >TRACKS >SECTORS >SECTSIZE >;HexData >; Each record or group of records contains the related media data. The >address record would be used for encoding the metadata >00TTSSHH: (00-track-sector-head) > >I looked to Intel Hex (or Motorola) because it had built-in CRC facilities >and it was human-readable ASCII. The drive and machine description could be >encoded in special MOT records probably. > >XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the >platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any >other technology like XML. > >Rich > Hi I like the use of OpenBoot like languages better than more natural languages like XML or such. My primary reason is that the Forth like languages are one of the few languages that syntax rules are simple enough that anyone ( with some programming skills ) can implement an interpreter. Also, the language is rich enough that one can even include various converters and even things like directory printout and file extractors inside the archive file it self ( with minimal overhead ). This is the concept of a postscript file. The file it self defines how to be printed with only a few initial primitives that directly correspond to printing. Without too much to go on, one could take the actual printout of a postscript file and the file itself and be able to determine the general rules for how do decode any postscript file. Kind of like the rosetta stone concept. We are talking about the maximum information in the smallest human readable form. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 15:57:20 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092226101.9446.56.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <27227583.1092221433755.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1092226101.9446.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040811135148.N16212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > One aside - what's the natural way of defining data on a GCR floppy? Do > heads/sectors/tracks still make sense as an addressing mode, but it's > just that the number of sectors per track varies according to the track > number? Or isn't it that simple? GCR is also usually done with tracks and sectors. Having a different number of sectors on different tracks is irrelevant to whether it is GCR or MFM or ? Instead, that often becomes a matter of CAV (constant angular velocity) v CLV (constant linear velocity) It can be implemented by a variable motor speed, OR by a variable data transfer rate. Many systems that do it do it in "zones", rather than changing every track. It WILL require another parameter in the spec. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 16:01:01 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30254067.1092230026978.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811135826.F16212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > As for GCR, that would have been covered under etc... I am not familiar > with GCR, but I would guess that it has to deal at least with physical > tracks and heads. In this case, a track would consist of whatever the > format needed plus the data blocks required for the track. GCR would be represented in the same field that specifies FM, MFM, RLL, etc. But, GCR and RLL have multiple variants. Even within Apple, there are several mutually incompatible GCRs. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 16:03:47 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112103.OAA02405@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> I can understand the need for both raw bit stream and extracted >> data. I propose that it should always include both types of information. >> The raw bits are needed to actually rebuild a particular format >> but often the information in the data is all that one needs to extract. >> In the case of the H8/89, we have working machines to read and write >> the format. We just need the data that fills the sectors. In the case > >Sure. You can always take the imagefile and process it into a binary file >that you then upload to the machine. > >I am not liking the concept of mixing ASCII and binary. I'm not proposing the have raw binary. I agree that it all should be in ASCII. What I'm talking about here is just the data as compared with all of the actual information related to the format of the transitions on the disk surface. The archive needs both or an easy way to separate them. Emulators only need the data where as recreating a disk needs much more information. Dwight ---snip--- >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From mcesari at comcast.net Wed Aug 11 16:11:33 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: What is it? Prometheus Versacard In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040811164033.00981a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040811164033.00981a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <0594C277-EBDB-11D8-BDD4-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Aug 11, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Joe R. wrote: > Anybody know what this card is? It appears to be for an Apple II > and > has two N-cell battery holders on it and a 20 pin and a 26 IDC header > along > the top edge. > > Joe > It's multifunction card containing 1(?) serial port, 1 parallel port, and a time-of-day clock. For the Apple ][. The details are a little fuzzy. Mike From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 16:15:40 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092255998.9446.226.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > So, what difference does it make to a human analyst whether the data is > stored as hex pairs or binary data? Both need decoding by some process > to make them usable. A human eye is no better off viewing a stream of > hex digits than they are a stream of arbitary ASCII data. I disagree. I can see "1A". I might not be able to see a CTRL-Z. > Actually, binary data could possibly be more useful to the human eye in > a browsing scenario, as at least the eye can quickly pick out meaningful > strings - such as filenames on the original media - from a sea of binary > data, without needing to do any decoding. At least viewing a file > containing binary data could give a clue as to what it contained if the > archive metadata (eg. description) wasn't up to much. In that case, I would suggest someone develop a browser program to interpret the archive data on the fly if they want to run a "strings" on it. > As raised earlier though, I do wonder if it's an idea to define several > possible encoding methods as part of the spec. Maximum flexibility > always seems the key to long-lived data formats, so it perhaps makes a > lot of sense to do so anyway. Who's to tell what use such archives might > be put to in the future - but if the spec covers a reasonable base for > now (with extensibility in mind such that others can be added if needs e > in future versions) then everyone's happy, and future generations can > always convert between formats as they see fit. I would be perfectly fine with enabling the implantation of binary data into the archive by having a tag to specify such. But I would strongly discourage its use. > Oh, next random thought (which I expect someone's already raised) - the > addressing format for the data on the original media needs to be > flexible enough to cope with different classes of data. Or rather, I'd > expect different addressing classes. For hard disk and floppy archives, > head/sector/track seem a logical addressing scheme. But for say a ROM > image, there's no concept of head/sector/track; maybe just an index to > the data and a length. Maybe someone will want to add scans of > documentation pages to an archive, in which case chapter / page > addressing is logical. Right, and there will be appropriate tags for each type of medium. > I'd say that important field values like the compression type should > always be human-readable rather than a numeric id, just rigidly defined > by the spec (e.g. 'none', 'base64' 'uuencode' etc.). That makes life a > lot easier for someone potentially looking at this in the future if they > don't happen to have a copy of the spec handy! Totally agreed. There should not be anything cryptic in the tags, and to the extent possible, they should make sense to a smart human. > Hmm, I miss the old days of everyone chucking ideas around like this :-) Well, they're back! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 16:16:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811133145.D16212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > At the minimal the archive would consist of every byte in the stream. Since > > > there is the potential for loarge areast of "no-data", previous posters > > > suggested using the intel format which consists of an offset [address] and a > > > number of data bytes represented in ascii hex characters. > > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Ok, I see now. This makes absolute sense. It also somewhat effects a > > form of implicit compression, which is good. By explicitly specifying > > where the data goes on the medium, you could then leave out any sections > > that are just zeroes. > > or E5h? (fill byte for "no data" on CP/M formatting) > or F6h? > rather than "leave out" any sections that are just zeroes, > put in a tag that says "x 00's", "x E5's", etc. Well, sure. But then I went on to imply that this method has problems (one of which you just pointed out). Still, it bears consideration. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 11 16:23:01 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 11, 2004 12:13:37 PM Message-ID: <20040811212301.18F9F109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. > To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 > Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the > imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly > designed, may crap out. Are you trying to create an archive format, or a format that is to be used by emulators? I say skip the emulators and concentrate on archival purposes. An emulator can then use the archive format to create a disk image in whatever internal format it requires. Don't complicate the problem. -spc (And don't try to become everything for everybody ... ) From george at rachors.com Wed Aug 11 16:25:11 2004 From: george at rachors.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: What is it? Prometheus Versacard In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040811164033.00981a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: As I remember: Real time clock Serial interface Parallel interface BSR interface >From Google: http://dcymbal.metabarn.com/random/PrometheusVersacardSettings.html ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Anybody know what this card is? It appears to be for an Apple II and > has two N-cell battery holders on it and a 20 pin and a 26 IDC header along > the top edge. > > Joe > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 16:24:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092257039.9446.242.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I still don't like it. As Roger M. pointed out, what will the binary data > > look like after it's been paraded through several different platforms? > > Well going back to the image example, it's like trying to ftp a TIFF > image to a remote server in ASCII mode. It's going to mess up, but > anyone with any smarts either knows not to transfer in that way because > it's going to mess up, or they inspect the data and realise that it > can't be transferred as ASCII. If people didn't learn by being told > something, common sense, or from their mistakes, then we probably all > wouldn't still be here :-) Hmmm. Ok, stupid me. Several years back, I transferred all my stored e-mails (both received and sent) from the ISP I used to use to my own server. I gzipped the files so they would be smaller and then used FTP to transfer them over. I then deleted the original files and went on my merry business. Sometime later, when I wanted to access those files, they would not unzip. It was then that I realized I ftp'd them in ASCII mode. DOH! DOH! DOH! So I'm not terribly smart, but I'm no George Bush either. I forgot that I had to put FTP into binary mode before transferring those files. This sort of error can propagate quite easily. I'd rather not rely on people to remember to switch to binary mode when they transfer large archives of imaged media. And I'd hate for an archive that was transferred this way to become a defacto archive of a specific set of important imaged data, only to find out years or decades down the road that they are completely useless because the binary data is missing its eight bit. > Same goes for any line termination issues; archivists would not be daft > enough to transfer data from one medium to the next and then destroy the > original (or if they did destroy the original, they'd be damned sure > that the copy matched the original *exactly* first). Whilst the average Haha. You're assuming everyone is as competent as you are :) > person does make silly mistakes and then typically learns from them, I'd > expect anyone preserving or dealing with historical data to have a few > more smarts about them in the first place! Or not. And at any rate, this specification should be as foolproof as is possible. You can't assume that everyone who's going to be making these archives or maintaining them is going to be smart. You just can't. The specification should be as robust as possible, and then more so. > All a question of providing lots of choices whilst keeping within a > strict specification so that people can choose what suits them > personally I suppose, whilst knowing that the data should still be > usable in the future... As I said, I would implement a binary data tag, but would strongly discourage its use. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 16:25:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: What is it? Prometheus Versacard In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040811164033.00981a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Anybody know what this card is? It appears to be for an Apple II and > has two N-cell battery holders on it and a 20 pin and a 26 IDC header along > the top edge. Sounds like a multi-function card (parallel, serial, clock). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 11 16:19:06 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408111910.MAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408111910.MAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040811161603.051c8f18@pc> At 02:10 PM 8/11/2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > We need to be looking at capturing the >raw data from the disk. And at methods of post processing this >to a form similar to what comes from the floppy controller. And if you want to get really crazy, there's Jerome Fine's methods of reconstructing faded magtapes by digitizing and DSP-ing the raw data, or the obscure emulator tools that can read the data from digitized cassette images of programs and data. I wish there was a mechanism like this for recovering video from 8mm video tape; I have some munged tapes I'd like to recover someday. Certainly others in the future and present world could benefit from videotape recovery schemes. And then there's the NSA's methods of reading erased data from hard disks. I vote for ASCII and not binary or compressed binary in the files. Compression is for afterwards and outside. With the right code, an emulator could keep the offsets to the "blocks" and rewrite the hex as needed in-place. :-) - John From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 16:27:54 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:06 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408112103.OAA02405@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm not proposing the have raw binary. I agree that it all should > be in ASCII. What I'm talking about here is just the data as > compared with all of the actual information related to the > format of the transitions on the disk surface. The archive needs > both or an easy way to separate them. > Emulators only need the data where as recreating a disk needs > much more information. Agreed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 16:30:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811212301.18F9F109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > > HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. > > To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 > > Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the > > imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly > > designed, may crap out. > > Are you trying to create an archive format, or a format that is to be used > by emulators? I say skip the emulators and concentrate on archival > purposes. An emulator can then use the archive format to create a disk > image in whatever internal format it requires. This is exactly what I have in mind. It's an archive format that can be used by emulators. The emulator would only need a front end that can interpret the archive image into an internal data structure that it can use. > Don't complicate the problem. We're not trying to at least ;) > -spc (And don't try to become everything for everybody ... ) Not trying to do that, but we are trying to make it a format for everything (or at least as much as possible that makes sense). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 16:37:42 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112137.OAA02427@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> One thing that could be done but I'm sure many will think >> I'm crazy. If the files contained OpenBoot source code to describe >> the data, one can then create almost anything one wants. > >I'm not familiar with OpenBoot. Can you explain this a bit more? Hi OpenBoot is the coding method used to bring up Sun workstations. It is normally used to interpret byte codes stored in the ROMs of various boards that plug into a SUN box. The idea is that the board configures itself by executing a non-platform dependent code. The platform supplies the information, such as where the next avaialble address space is and the board then allocates what it needs. One doesn't need to encode as byte code because there is also and interpreter. This is the part I think is most valuable. Unlike XML, Forth like languages are truly extendable to a greater degree. The richness of the primitives is what counts here. There is also the fact that even a mediocre programmer can implement a Forth like interpreter where as something like XML is easier to read but because it contains higher level syntactical rules needs a more complicated interpreter. The problem is that in the future, one needs to provide the simplest method of describing that can be implemented the easiest. Forth like interpreters follow simple rules: 1. Every thing that is separated with white space is a word. 2. As one comes across a word, left to right, one executes it. Forth adds one more step that I don't necessarily recommend. If it comes to a word that it doesn't understand, it tries to read it as a number. I believe that this is not necessary. The advantages are such that most any form of encoded data ( in ASCII ) can follow. The file itself can then convert to other formats. Things like simple compaction can even be added. > >> We need to remember that what normally comes out of a floppy >> controller chip is not the actual data on the disk. The information >> on the disk is a more complex. It contains things like special >> marks for indexing, headers and even errors. These need to >> be represented as well. We need to be looking at capturing the >> raw data from the disk. And at methods of post processing this >> to a form similar to what comes from the floppy controller. > >There are multiple levels at which someone may want to archive a medium. >There's the physical level, as you describe above. Then there's the level >in between physical and logical, which is, to use the example of floppy >disks again, tracks and sectors. And then there's the logical level which >is an actual filesystem with a directory and filenames, etc. > >This spec should be designed to be able to handle all three types >simultaneously within the same image file. Agreed. > >What I mean is that it might be useful to have (to use a floppy disk as an >example again) most of the disk encoded in a track/sector representation, >but then have one particular track encoded at a bit level, because perhaps >it contains special signatures that are part of a copy protection scheme. >If the image is ever used to re-create the original physical disk, the >binary data will be essential if the disk is going to actually be expected >to work (unless the copy protection scheme is removed at that point). Yep Dwight > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 11 16:43:40 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092257039.9446.242.camel@weka.localdomain> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811173857.00af5a20@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: [snip] >Same goes for any line termination issues; archivists would not be daft >enough to transfer data from one medium to the next and then destroy the >original (or if they did destroy the original, they'd be damned sure >that the copy matched the original *exactly* first). Whilst the average >person does make silly mistakes and then typically learns from them, I'd >expect anyone preserving or dealing with historical data to have a few >more smarts about them in the first place! Rule #1: *Never* underestimate the power of human stupidity. Rule #2: If you ever forget this, look at the people who run your country. Rule #3: If you wonder about the sanity of Rule #2, remember, for most countries on this earth, *you put 'em there.* ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. What was that one museum quoted recently that didn't give a ratz rump about keeping their computers running (CHM was it?) but gutted 'em, put lightstrings around them and said "lookey-here." Remember, *they* are our archivists... [[Hopefully, we can change that, but it's a downhill slide, my friend... ;-) ]] -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 11 16:43:41 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 11, 2004 12:23:08 PM Message-ID: <20040811214341.02572109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > > other technology like XML. > > XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? Nope. XML files can be represented in multiple character sets, possibly including (but certainly not limited to): 437, 500, 500V1, 850, 851, 852, 855, 856, 857, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 866NAV, 869, 874, 904, 1026, 1046, 1047, 8859_1, 8859_2, 8859_3, 8859_4, 8859_5, 8859_6, 8859_7, 8859_8, 8859_9, 10646-1:1993, 10646-1:1993/UCS4, ANSI_X3.4-1968, ANSI_X3.4-1986, ANSI_X3.4, ANSI_X3.110-1983, ANSI_X3.110, ARABIC, ARABIC7, ARMSCII-8, ASCII, ASMO-708, ASMO_449, BALTIC, BIG-5, BIG-FIVE, BIG5-HKSCS, BIG5, BIG5HKSCS, BIGFIVE, BS_4730, CA, CN-BIG5, CN-GB, CN, CP-AR, CP-GR, CP-HU, CP037, CP038, CP273, CP274, CP275, CP278, CP280, CP281, CP282, CP284, CP285, CP290, CP297, CP367, CP420, CP423, CP424, CP437, CP500, CP737, CP775, CP813, CP819, CP850, CP851, CP852, CP855, CP856, CP857, CP860, CP861, CP862, CP863, CP864, CP865, CP866, CP866NAV, CP868, CP869, CP870, CP871, CP874, CP875, CP880, CP891, CP903, CP904, CP905, CP912, CP915, CP916, CP918, CP920, CP922, CP930, CP932, CP933, CP935, CP936, CP937, CP939, CP949, CP950, CP1004, CP1026, CP1046, CP1047, CP1070, CP1079, CP1081, CP1084, CP1089, CP1124, CP1125, CP1129, CP1132, CP1133, CP1160, CP1161, CP1162, CP1163, CP1164, CP1250, CP1251, CP1252, CP1253, CP1254, CP1255, CP1256, CP1257, CP1258, CP1361, CP10007, CPIBM861, CSA7-1, CSA7-2, CSASCII, CSA_T500-1983, CSA_T500, CSA_Z243.4-1985-1, CSA_Z243.4-1985-2, CSA_Z243.419851, CSA_Z243.419852, CSDECMCS, CSEBCDICATDE, CSEBCDICATDEA, CSEBCDICCAFR, CSEBCDICDKNO, CSEBCDICDKNOA, CSEBCDICES, CSEBCDICESA, CSEBCDICESS, CSEBCDICFISE, CSEBCDICFISEA, CSEBCDICFR, CSEBCDICIT, CSEBCDICPT, CSEBCDICUK, CSEBCDICUS, CSEUCKR, CSEUCPKDFMTJAPANESE, CSGB2312, CSHPROMAN8, CSIBM037, CSIBM038, CSIBM273, CSIBM274, CSIBM275, CSIBM277, CSIBM278, CSIBM280, CSIBM281, CSIBM284, CSIBM285, CSIBM290, CSIBM297, CSIBM420, CSIBM423, CSIBM424, CSIBM500, CSIBM851, CSIBM855, CSIBM856, CSIBM857, CSIBM860, CSIBM863, CSIBM864, CSIBM865, CSIBM866, CSIBM868, CSIBM869, CSIBM870, CSIBM871, CSIBM880, CSIBM891, CSIBM903, CSIBM904, CSIBM905, CSIBM918, CSIBM922, CSIBM930, CSIBM932, CSIBM933, CSIBM935, CSIBM937, CSIBM939, CSIBM943, CSIBM1026, CSIBM1124, CSIBM1129, CSIBM1132, CSIBM1133, CSIBM1160, CSIBM1161, CSIBM1163, CSIBM1164, CSIBM11621162, CSISO4UNITEDKINGDOM, CSISO10SWEDISH, CSISO11SWEDISHFORNAMES, CSISO14JISC6220RO, CSISO15ITALIAN, CSISO16PORTUGESE, CSISO17SPANISH, CSISO18GREEK7OLD, CSISO19LATINGREEK, CSISO21GERMAN, CSISO25FRENCH, CSISO27LATINGREEK1, CSISO49INIS, CSISO50INIS8, CSISO51INISCYRILLIC, CSISO58GB1988, CSISO60DANISHNORWEGIAN, CSISO60NORWEGIAN1, CSISO61NORWEGIAN2, CSISO69FRENCH, CSISO84PORTUGUESE2, CSISO85SPANISH2, CSISO86HUNGARIAN, CSISO88GREEK7, CSISO89ASMO449, CSISO90, CSISO92JISC62991984B, CSISO99NAPLPS, CSISO103T618BIT, CSISO111ECMACYRILLIC, CSISO121CANADIAN1, CSISO122CANADIAN2, CSISO139CSN369103, CSISO141JUSIB1002, CSISO143IECP271, CSISO150, CSISO150GREEKCCITT, CSISO151CUBA, CSISO153GOST1976874, CSISO646DANISH, CSISO2022CN, CSISO2022JP, CSISO2022JP2, CSISO2022KR, CSISO2033, CSISO5427CYRILLIC, CSISO5427CYRILLIC1981, CSISO5428GREEK, CSISO10367BOX, CSISOLATIN1, CSISOLATIN2, CSISOLATIN3, CSISOLATIN4, CSISOLATIN5, CSISOLATIN6, CSISOLATINARABIC, CSISOLATINCYRILLIC, CSISOLATINGREEK, CSISOLATINHEBREW, CSKOI8R, CSKSC5636, CSMACINTOSH, CSNATSDANO, CSNATSSEFI, CSN_369103, CSPC8CODEPAGE437, CSPC775BALTIC, CSPC850MULTILINGUAL, CSPC862LATINHEBREW, CSPCP852, CSSHIFTJIS, CSUCS4, CSUNICODE, CUBA, CWI-2, CWI, CYRILLIC, DE, DEC-MCS, DEC, DECMCS, DIN_66003, DK, DS2089, DS_2089, E13B, EBCDIC-AT-DE-A, EBCDIC-AT-DE, EBCDIC-BE, EBCDIC-BR, EBCDIC-CA-FR, EBCDIC-CP-AR1, EBCDIC-CP-AR2, EBCDIC-CP-BE, EBCDIC-CP-CA, EBCDIC-CP-CH, EBCDIC-CP-DK, EBCDIC-CP-ES, EBCDIC-CP-FI, EBCDIC-CP-FR, EBCDIC-CP-GB, EBCDIC-CP-GR, EBCDIC-CP-HE, EBCDIC-CP-IS, EBCDIC-CP-IT, EBCDIC-CP-NL, EBCDIC-CP-NO, EBCDIC-CP-ROECE, EBCDIC-CP-SE, EBCDIC-CP-TR, EBCDIC-CP-US, EBCDIC-CP-WT, EBCDIC-CP-YU, EBCDIC-CYRILLIC, EBCDIC-DK-NO-A, EBCDIC-DK-NO, EBCDIC-ES-A, EBCDIC-ES-S, EBCDIC-ES, EBCDIC-FI-SE-A, EBCDIC-FI-SE, EBCDIC-FR, EBCDIC-GREEK, EBCDIC-INT, EBCDIC-INT1, EBCDIC-IS-FRISS, EBCDIC-IT, EBCDIC-JP-E, EBCDIC-JP-KANA, EBCDIC-PT, EBCDIC-UK, EBCDIC-US, EBCDICATDE, EBCDICATDEA, EBCDICCAFR, EBCDICDKNO, EBCDICDKNOA, EBCDICES, EBCDICESA, EBCDICESS, EBCDICFISE, EBCDICFISEA, EBCDICFR, EBCDICISFRISS, EBCDICIT, EBCDICPT, EBCDICUK, EBCDICUS, ECMA-114, ECMA-118, ECMA-128, ECMA-CYRILLIC, ECMACYRILLIC, ELOT_928, ES, ES2, EUC-CN, EUC-JISX0213, EUC-JP, EUC-KR, EUC-TW, EUCCN, EUCJP, EUCKR, EUCTW, FI, FR, GB, GB2312, GB13000, GB18030, GBK, GB_1988-80, GB_198880, GEORGIAN-ACADEMY, GEORGIAN-PS, GOST_19768-74, GOST_19768, GOST_1976874, GREEK-CCITT, GREEK, GREEK7-OLD, GREEK7, GREEK7OLD, GREEK8, GREEKCCITT, HEBREW, HP-ROMAN8, HPROMAN8, HU, IBM-856, IBM-922, IBM-930, IBM-932, IBM-933, IBM-935, IBM-937, IBM-939, IBM-943, IBM-1046, IBM-1124, IBM-1129, IBM-1132, IBM-1133, IBM-1160, IBM-1161, IBM-1162, IBM-1163, IBM-1164, IBM037, IBM038, IBM256, IBM273, IBM274, IBM275, IBM277, IBM278, IBM280, IBM281, IBM284, IBM285, IBM290, IBM297, IBM367, IBM420, IBM423, IBM424, IBM437, IBM500, IBM775, IBM813, IBM819, IBM848, IBM850, IBM851, IBM852, IBM855, IBM856, IBM857, IBM860, IBM861, IBM862, IBM863, IBM864, IBM865, IBM866, IBM866NAV, IBM868, IBM869, IBM870, IBM871, IBM874, IBM875, IBM880, IBM891, IBM903, IBM904, IBM905, IBM912, IBM915, IBM916, IBM918, IBM920, IBM922, IBM930, IBM932, IBM933, IBM935, IBM937, IBM939, IBM943, IBM1004, IBM1026, IBM1046, IBM1047, IBM1089, IBM1124, IBM1129, IBM1132, IBM1133, IBM1160, IBM1161, IBM1162, IBM1163, IBM1164, IEC_P27-1, IEC_P271, INIS-8, INIS-CYRILLIC, INIS, INIS8, INISCYRILLIC, ISIRI-3342, ISIRI3342, ISO-2022-CN-EXT, ISO-2022-CN, ISO-2022-JP-2, ISO-2022-JP-3, ISO-2022-JP, ISO-2022-KR, ISO-8859-1, ISO-8859-2, ISO-8859-3, ISO-8859-4, ISO-8859-5, ISO-8859-6, ISO-8859-7, ISO-8859-8, ISO-8859-9, ISO-8859-10, ISO-8859-11, ISO-8859-13, ISO-8859-14, ISO-8859-15, ISO-8859-16, ISO-10646, ISO-10646/UCS2, ISO-10646/UCS4, ISO-10646/UTF-8, ISO-10646/UTF8, ISO-CELTIC, ISO-IR-4, ISO-IR-6, ISO-IR-8-1, ISO-IR-9-1, ISO-IR-10, ISO-IR-11, ISO-IR-14, ISO-IR-15, ISO-IR-16, ISO-IR-17, ISO-IR-18, ISO-IR-19, ISO-IR-21, ISO-IR-25, ISO-IR-27, ISO-IR-37, ISO-IR-49, ISO-IR-50, ISO-IR-51, ISO-IR-54, ISO-IR-55, ISO-IR-57, ISO-IR-60, ISO-IR-61, ISO-IR-69, ISO-IR-84, ISO-IR-85, ISO-IR-86, ISO-IR-88, ISO-IR-89, ISO-IR-90, ISO-IR-92, ISO-IR-98, ISO-IR-99, ISO-IR-100, ISO-IR-101, ISO-IR-103, ISO-IR-109, ISO-IR-110, ISO-IR-111, ISO-IR-121, ISO-IR-122, ISO-IR-126, ISO-IR-127, ISO-IR-138, ISO-IR-139, ISO-IR-141, ISO-IR-143, ISO-IR-144, ISO-IR-148, ISO-IR-150, ISO-IR-151, ISO-IR-153, ISO-IR-155, ISO-IR-156, ISO-IR-157, ISO-IR-166, ISO-IR-179, ISO-IR-193, ISO-IR-197, ISO-IR-199, ISO-IR-203, ISO-IR-209, ISO-IR-226, ISO646-CA, ISO646-CA2, ISO646-CN, ISO646-CU, ISO646-DE, ISO646-DK, ISO646-ES, ISO646-ES2, ISO646-FI, ISO646-FR, ISO646-FR1, ISO646-GB, ISO646-HU, ISO646-IT, ISO646-JP-OCR-B, ISO646-JP, ISO646-KR, ISO646-NO, ISO646-NO2, ISO646-PT, ISO646-PT2, ISO646-SE, ISO646-SE2, ISO646-US, ISO646-YU, ISO2022CN, ISO2022CNEXT, ISO2022JP, ISO2022JP2, ISO2022KR, ISO6937, ISO8859-1, ISO8859-2, ISO8859-3, ISO8859-4, ISO8859-5, ISO8859-6, ISO8859-7, ISO8859-8, ISO8859-9, ISO8859-10, ISO8859-11, ISO8859-13, ISO8859-14, ISO8859-15, ISO8859-16, ISO88591, ISO88592, ISO88593, ISO88594, ISO88595, ISO88596, ISO88597, ISO88598, ISO88599, ISO885910, ISO885911, ISO885913, ISO885914, ISO885915, ISO885916, ISO_646.IRV:1991, ISO_2033-1983, ISO_2033, ISO_5427-EXT, ISO_5427, ISO_5427:1981, ISO_5427EXT, ISO_5428, ISO_5428:1980, ISO_6937-2, ISO_6937-2:1983, ISO_6937, ISO_6937:1992, ISO_8859-1, ISO_8859-1:1987, ISO_8859-2, ISO_8859-2:1987, ISO_8859-3, ISO_8859-3:1988, ISO_8859-4, ISO_8859-4:1988, ISO_8859-5, ISO_8859-5:1988, ISO_8859-6, ISO_8859-6:1987, ISO_8859-7, ISO_8859-7:1987, ISO_8859-8, ISO_8859-8:1988, ISO_8859-9, ISO_8859-9:1989, ISO_8859-10, ISO_8859-10:1992, ISO_8859-14, ISO_8859-14:1998, ISO_8859-15:1998, ISO_9036, ISO_10367-BOX, ISO_10367BOX, ISO_69372, IT, JIS_C6220-1969-RO, JIS_C6229-1984-B, JIS_C62201969RO, JIS_C62291984B, JOHAB, JP-OCR-B, JP, JS, JUS_I.B1.002, KOI-7, KOI-8, KOI8-R, KOI8-T, KOI8-U, KOI8, KOI8R, KOI8U, KSC5636, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, L6, L7, L8, L10, LATIN-GREEK-1, LATIN-GREEK, LATIN1, LATIN2, LATIN3, LATIN4, LATIN5, LATIN6, LATIN7, LATIN8, LATIN10, LATINGREEK, LATINGREEK1, MAC-CYRILLIC, MAC-IS, MAC-SAMI, MAC-UK, MAC, MACCYRILLIC, MACINTOSH, MACIS, MACUK, MACUKRAINIAN, MS-ANSI, MS-ARAB, MS-CYRL, MS-EE, MS-GREEK, MS-HEBR, MS-MAC-CYRILLIC, MS-TURK, MSCP949, MSCP1361, MSMACCYRILLIC, MSZ_7795.3, MS_KANJI, NAPLPS, NATS-DANO, NATS-SEFI, NATSDANO, NATSSEFI, NC_NC0010, NC_NC00-10, NC_NC00-10:81, NF_Z_62-010, NF_Z_62-010_(1973), NF_Z_62-010_1973, NF_Z_62010, NF_Z_62010_1973, NO, NO2, NS_4551-1, NS_4551-2, NS_45511, NS_45512, OS2LATIN1, OSF00010001, OSF00010002, OSF00010003, OSF00010004, OSF00010005, OSF00010006, OSF00010007, OSF00010008, OSF00010009, OSF0001000A, OSF00010020, OSF00010100, OSF00010101, OSF00010102, OSF00010104, OSF00010105, OSF00010106, OSF00030010, OSF0004000A, OSF0005000A, OSF05010001, OSF100201A4, OSF100201A8, OSF100201B5, OSF100201F4, OSF100203B5, OSF1002011C, OSF1002011D, OSF1002035D, OSF1002035E, OSF1002035F, OSF1002036B, OSF1002037B, OSF10010001, OSF10020025, OSF10020111, OSF10020115, OSF10020116, OSF10020118, OSF10020122, OSF10020129, OSF10020352, OSF10020354, OSF10020357, OSF10020359, OSF10020360, OSF10020364, OSF10020365, OSF10020366, OSF10020367, OSF10020370, OSF10020387, OSF10020388, OSF10020396, OSF10020402, OSF10020417, PT, PT2, R8, ROMAN8, RUSCII, SE, SE2, SEN_850200_B, SEN_850200_C, SHIFT-JIS, SHIFT_JIS, SHIFT_JISX0213, SJIS, SS636127, ST_SEV_358-88, T.61-8BIT, T.61, T.618BIT, TCVN-5712, TCVN, TCVN5712-1, TCVN5712-1:1993, TIS-620, TIS620-0, TIS620.2529-1, TIS620.2533-0, TIS620, TS-5881, TSCII, UCS-2, UCS-2BE, UCS-2LE, UCS-4, UCS-4BE, UCS-4LE, UCS2, UCS4, UHC, UJIS, UK, UNICODE, UNICODEBIG, UNICODELITTLE, US-ASCII, US, UTF-7, UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-16BE, UTF-16LE, UTF-32, UTF-32BE, UTF-32LE, UTF7, UTF8, UTF16, UTF16BE, UTF16LE, UTF32, UTF32BE, UTF32LE, VISCII, WCHAR_T, WIN-SAMI-2, WINBALTRIM, WINDOWS-1250, WINDOWS-1251, WINDOWS-1252, WINDOWS-1253, WINDOWS-1254, WINDOWS-1255, WINDOWS-1256, WINDOWS-1257, WINDOWS-1258, WINSAMI2, WS2, YU Best decide this now. You might also want to investigate the work on Atom (a blogging archive/API format in XML) where they are having to deal with an explostion of character encoding schemes (for a sample of what they're doing, read http://intertwingly.net/stories/2004/04/14/i18n.html). My recomendation if you use XML? Mandate the following: and be done with the mess that is character encoding. Also, the more explicit you are in labling the data, the better. So, for instance: ... where "bit-encoding" is the format used to encode the data on the physical disk, and "encoding" is the format used *in the archive* of the data. Just an example, but the more metadata you include, the better. -spc (It really is quite a mess) From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 16:47:52 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <11703665.1092260872754.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation of media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do that and have its only function be to maintain a physical data format. My added idea is that the data and the formatting be separated so that a simple utility on a non-target platform could extract data from the image file. If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to retrieve any internal file representation. My idea would make the file re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed for the actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes the emulator easier. To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end of this message, the emulator must know the actual disk format that is used on the target system (the one the image file was made for). I have seen cp/m systems where the actual physical sectors were sequential on disk and the OS file sector was actually virtual to increase speed. Not my idea of the way to do it. It is much easier to make the physical sectors slewed so that a physical sector is a file sector. These are the types of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator must totally understand each and every file system for a cp/m version for example. Sellam, let me know if you would like to discuss this via telephone so I can convery the idea that I am proposing. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:00 PM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media > re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just > using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a > file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the > physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. That is the point, really. What we are attempting to do is describe as faithfully as possible a physical media with logical data in a purely logical form. The goal would be that the physical media could be re-created from the imagefile if need be. The parameters of the physcial media are specified so that this can be possible. > My earlier point of separating the data and the format information > allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one > described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be > "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS > or the platform. I'm not quite understanding you here. Or maybe I am. An image in the format shown below could be read by any emulator. Making sense of the data with respect to that emulator is a different issue altogether, but it does make it possible for, say, a Northstar Horizon emulator to load up an Apple ][ disk image and then try to access it. Anyway, I don't think I am quite getting the point you are trying to make. > SECTORS=16 SECTORSIZE=256> > > Apple ][ System Disk > > > > > > > > HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 > > > > ... > > > > HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 > > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 16:53:02 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> to re-iterate, the separate sections I am proposing let the emulator do this very easily. Embed the format and the data together as pyhsical information and then the matter of extracting a file for emulation becomes difficult and not universal. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 11, 2004 2:30 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > > HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. > > To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 > > Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the > > imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly > > designed, may crap out. > > Are you trying to create an archive format, or a format that is to be used > by emulators? I say skip the emulators and concentrate on archival > purposes. An emulator can then use the archive format to create a disk > image in whatever internal format it requires. This is exactly what I have in mind. It's an archive format that can be used by emulators. The emulator would only need a front end that can interpret the archive image into an internal data structure that it can use. > Don't complicate the problem. We're not trying to at least ;) > -spc (And don't try to become everything for everybody ... ) Not trying to do that, but we are trying to make it a format for everything (or at least as much as possible that makes sense). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 17:05:46 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112205.PAA02443@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" ---snip--- >> >> or E5h? (fill byte for "no data" on CP/M formatting) >> or F6h? >> rather than "leave out" any sections that are just zeroes, >> put in a tag that says "x 00's", "x E5's", etc. > >Well, sure. But then I went on to imply that this method has problems >(one of which you just pointed out). > >Still, it bears consideration. > Hi Using the Postscript like concept, one would have a compactor word defined earlier in the file such that simple syntax like: EXPAND 512 E5 would be able to create a block of 512 E5's Of course one might want to keep a consistant radix like: EXPAND 200 E5 But that is not neccessary if the word EXPAND was first defined as such. Also such things as copy protection where a sector size has been changed on a track might be encoded as: SECTOR_SIZE 512 SECTOR_DATA 0 xxx..xxx SECTOR_SIZE 256 SECTOR_DATA 1 xx....xxx etc. The Archive file could include a simple glossary of the externally defined words that are in common use while still being internally extended to cover special cases. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 17:05:45 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112205.PAA02439@clulw009.amd.com> >From: spc@conman.org > >It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: >> >> HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. >> To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 >> Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the >> imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly >> designed, may crap out. > > Are you trying to create an archive format, or a format that is to be used >by emulators? I say skip the emulators and concentrate on archival >purposes. An emulator can then use the archive format to create a disk >image in whatever internal format it requires. > > Don't complicate the problem. I agree. We only need to provide a format that could be converted for a specific emulator, not necessarily one that can be conveniently read by an emulator. Dwight > > -spc (And don't try to become everything for everybody ... ) > > > > From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 17:16:58 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <12383813.1092262618491.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> would you rather have one format that allows for easy data access and re-creation of media or only be able to re-create media and have a difficult interface in EVERY emulator that needs to access the data? From a usage standpoint, I think putting the burden on the emulators is not a reasonable approach. There are a variety of emulators available do not have to deal with track sector access of information. One uses an import command to bring ms-dos files in for example. To have to write an outside utility that has to know what the image file type is, know the physical layout of the disk, know how the OS accesses files on the disk just to retrieve file data is not a good idea. leave the OS access to the real platform or emulators that want to deal with actual tracks and sectors. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:05 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >From: spc@conman.org > >It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: >> >> HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. >> To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 >> Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the >> imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly >> designed, may crap out. > > Are you trying to create an archive format, or a format that is to be used >by emulators? I say skip the emulators and concentrate on archival >purposes. An emulator can then use the archive format to create a disk >image in whatever internal format it requires. > > Don't complicate the problem. I agree. We only need to provide a format that could be converted for a specific emulator, not necessarily one that can be conveniently read by an emulator. Dwight > > -spc (And don't try to become everything for everybody ... ) > > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 11 17:09:21 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408112221.SAA26078@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I like the idea of Base64, because it's something that can still be > readily decoded manually by a human (converting between number bases > is easy once you understand the concept). I'd hardly say "readily". Hex I can read by eye; base64 I would use a program for, even if it's a five-minute one-off hack. (I can write a rudimentary base64 unpacker in fifteen minutes; I know because I once did. Fifteen minutes would be unlikely to be enough time for me to decode more than a few tens of bytes, without computer assist.) > I'm not knowledgeable as to how the uuencode format is encoded. It's conceptually almost identical to base64: it's a base-64 representation, representing three octets of binary data as four encoded characters. The major differences are probably that uuencode has a length field on each encoded line and uses a different set of 64 characters. "man 5 uuencode" on your friendly neighbourhood NetBSD box should explain it - I'll be happy to send the manpage (nroff input or formatted output, as desired) to anyone who wants a copy. If it's a choice between base64 and uuencode, I'd say go with base64 - it's more resistant to mangling by non-ASCII systems. If you're willing to commit to ASCII, btoa might be better - it uses base 85, expanding by 4:5 rather than the 3:4 expansion produced by base64 or uuencode. However, the only reason I can see to use base64 instead of hex is a desire to expand by only 3:4 instead of 1:2, and in my opinion that verges on penny-wise and pound-foolish given the fundamental goals of this archive format. As Sellam writes, > Given the current trends of hard drives, image filesize is not an > issue. Human readability is the prime concern. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 17:22:23 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <10946538.1092262943894.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I am not assuming anything about the data. The usual use is to have files... in the case of a paper tape emulator system used for CNC, the disk structure may not resemble a normal file structure. It still contains one or more blocks of data. you can apply whatever name to that you want to. The boot sector on a cp/m 8" disk doesn't have a name, but it is a block of data that is separate from everything else. Personally, I would want to be able to "read" the boot sector and potentially even write it back to an image file. It really doesn't make a difference whether you access track 0 and sector 1 or a data block inside the image file that contains the boot code. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Aug 11, 2004 1:39 PM To: melamy@earthlink.net, cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. My earlier point of separating the data and the format information allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS or the platform. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher Hi Steve You seem to be assuming that the particular disk you are archiving has a file structure. This is not always the case. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 17:24:20 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112224.PAA02456@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" > > >I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation >of media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do >that and have its only function be to maintain a physical data format. >My added idea is that the data and the formatting be separated so >that a simple utility on a non-target platform could extract data >from the image file. > >If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data >then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to >retrieve any internal file representation. My idea would make the >file re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed >for the actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes >the emulator easier. No, this is to archive the disk, not to make life easy for emulators. Again, you assume that the data is files. Also, anyone making such an emulator will surely know how to find files ( if they exist ) in an image of the disk. Most emulators include the BIOS and such. The emulator that we have in the H8 group simply uses the BIOS code and the boot code from the disk to find file ( as it should ). It just needs raw data. The emulator I/O is just tracks and sectors, not files. >To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end of this >message, >the emulator must know the actual disk format that is used on >the target system (the one the image file was made for). I have seen >cp/m systems where the actual physical sectors were sequential on disk >and the OS file sector was actually virtual to increase speed. Not my >idea of the way to do it. It is much easier to make the physical >sectors slewed so that a physical sector is a file sector. These >are the types of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator >must totally understand each and every file system for a cp/m >version for example. Like I said, the archive file can include sufficient information to extract the data in any form that you'd like but it must as a minimum be able to recreate the physical disk. It may take some human to actually make the physical media generator but the data in the file should be sufficient to do that. This is not an easy task and goes beyond simply finding files in the raw data. Dwight > >Sellam, let me know if you would like to discuss this via telephone > so I can convery the idea that I am proposing. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: Vintage Computer Festival >Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:00 PM >To: Steve Thatcher , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media >> re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just >> using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a >> file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the >> physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. > >That is the point, really. What we are attempting to do is describe as >faithfully as possible a physical media with logical data in a purely >logical form. The goal would be that the physical media could be >re-created from the imagefile if need be. The parameters of the physcial >media are specified so that this can be possible. > >> My earlier point of separating the data and the format information >> allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one >> described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be >> "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS >> or the platform. > >I'm not quite understanding you here. Or maybe I am. An image in the >format shown below could be read by any emulator. Making sense of the >data with respect to that emulator is a different issue altogether, but it >does make it possible for, say, a Northstar Horizon emulator to load up an >Apple ][ disk image and then try to access it. > >Anyway, I don't think I am quite getting the point you are trying to make. > > >> > SECTORS=16 SECTORSIZE=256> >> >> Apple ][ System Disk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 >> >> >> > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 11 17:21:41 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408112231.SAA26116@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM > and call it done? No! Please! Not for archival purposes! 44.1KHz is good enough for casual listening, for most people, but it is not good enough for archival - and for a serious audiophile, it's not enough even for listening. If I had analog audio to digitize for archival purposes, I'd aim for 1MHz sample rate and at least 24bit (preferably 32bit) A->D. It seems like overkill by today's standards, but storing a couple of orders of magnitude more data is cheap compared to discovering you need - or even just want - data that simply isn't there now that the original's gone. Of course, this is a choice to be made by the person converting the analog data to digital. I think the format spec should be able to describe whatever that person chooses; I think it would be a _very_ bad idea to assume anything about what that choice will be. The format should be able to handle anything from 3 bits/sample compressed sound such as I get from my voice modem, or even less, to multi-MHz sample rates at hundreds of bits per sample (8-eg, channel 32bpp = 256 bits per sampling tick). For audio, you probably could get away with capping it at a few GHz sample rate - I'm not sure air can carry frequences that high - but I see no reason to impose any limit. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 11 17:38:18 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <411A9FDA.6050003@jetnet.ab.ca> McFadden, Mike wrote: > I'll be friar Mike hunched over a lectern transcribing data with an ion > writer. Give me holographic media! BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 11 17:46:19 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <411AA1BB.2090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason McBrien wrote: > What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM and call > it done? What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video, > which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these > corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive > storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?) The Voyager disc was a record. - analog. I say stick to 8 bit bytes for media - transfer programs can handle that. Why not just record the real bit data and timing data, media is cheap. Ben. From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 17:54:33 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <11985891.1092264873719.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> what is wrong with making things easier? If a small amount of effort could be put out to make the image file have a more useful purpose then to ONLY be able to create media, why not? Your view seems to be to make all the emulators tyhat are currently available not work anymore because now they have to be modified to access an image file. My idea is to not change all that, make the image file simple enough to extract data. I really believe that to not do that simple thing will make the project less than what it could have been. I am not proposing something that takes a lot of code, but rather let's us do things simpler. Maybe you need to define what an emulator is so I can understand why you think being able to access data easily should not be done. If you thought of an emulator is to BE the machine in absolutely all respects then yes who ever is writing it needs to understand the file structure intimately and we need to add even more to the specification to allow writing to an image file... If you are designing an emulator to look like a front panel and run cp/m programs from you favorite stash, then having to design a complicated file structure interface to an image file is not needed. best regards, Steve Thatcher From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:24 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >From: "Steve Thatcher" > > >I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation >of media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do >that and have its only function be to maintain a physical data format. >My added idea is that the data and the formatting be separated so >that a simple utility on a non-target platform could extract data >from the image file. > >If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data >then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to >retrieve any internal file representation. My idea would make the >file re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed >for the actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes >the emulator easier. No, this is to archive the disk, not to make life easy for emulators. Again, you assume that the data is files. Also, anyone making such an emulator will surely know how to find files ( if they exist ) in an image of the disk. Most emulators include the BIOS and such. The emulator that we have in the H8 group simply uses the BIOS code and the boot code from the disk to find file ( as it should ). It just needs raw data. The emulator I/O is just tracks and sectors, not files. >To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end of this >message, >the emulator must know the actual disk format that is used on >the target system (the one the image file was made for). I have seen >cp/m systems where the actual physical sectors were sequential on disk >and the OS file sector was actually virtual to increase speed. Not my >idea of the way to do it. It is much easier to make the physical >sectors slewed so that a physical sector is a file sector. These >are the types of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator >must totally understand each and every file system for a cp/m >version for example. Like I said, the archive file can include sufficient information to extract the data in any form that you'd like but it must as a minimum be able to recreate the physical disk. It may take some human to actually make the physical media generator but the data in the file should be sufficient to do that. This is not an easy task and goes beyond simply finding files in the raw data. Dwight > >Sellam, let me know if you would like to discuss this via telephone > so I can convery the idea that I am proposing. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: Vintage Computer Festival >Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:00 PM >To: Steve Thatcher , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> I agree with Sellam on the point about using it both for media >> re-creation and emulation. The trouble with the approach below of just >> using raw data on a track sector basis is that now you have created a >> file that can only be used with an emulator that understands the >> physical format and OS access for the computer system you are emulating. > >That is the point, really. What we are attempting to do is describe as >faithfully as possible a physical media with logical data in a purely >logical form. The goal would be that the physical media could be >re-created from the imagefile if need be. The parameters of the physcial >media are specified so that this can be possible. > >> My earlier point of separating the data and the format information >> allows a single file (that would not be much bigger that the one >> described below) to contain multiple platform specific files that can be >> "read" by a simple utility that does not require any knowledge of the OS >> or the platform. > >I'm not quite understanding you here. Or maybe I am. An image in the >format shown below could be read by any emulator. Making sense of the >data with respect to that emulator is a different issue altogether, but it >does make it possible for, say, a Northstar Horizon emulator to load up an >Apple ][ disk image and then try to access it. > >Anyway, I don't think I am quite getting the point you are trying to make. > > >> > SECTORS=16 SECTORSIZE=256> >> >> Apple ][ System Disk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 0, SECTOR 0 >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> HERE WOULD BE THE ASCII HEX DATA FOR TRACK 34, SECTOR 15 >> >> >> > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 11 17:50:54 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Anyone need greenbar paper? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040809010841.00ae10f8@mail.30below.com> <200408100234.WAA06944@wordstock.com> <20040811201702.GA23136@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <411AA2CE.6030803@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Monceaux wrote: >>>Greenbar Bedsheets. >> > > Would that be 80 column for twin, 132 column for king? What size would > queen be? I'd grab a set of 132 column breenbar bedsheets if I ever come > across any. 96 column for queen. 72 column for single. :) Ben. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 17:57:55 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408112257.PAA02488@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Again, these are archive files. First preserve the media information. If ones wants, one can add other features. Emulators that don't provide some level of I/O interface at a low level usually don't work well for all programs. Emulators should as a minimum, provide a BIOS level interface ( if such exist ). Even this may not be low level enough. If someone writes an emulator that sees things at such a high level as simply files, it will most likely be useless for anything but the simplest programs that could have run on almost any platform. None of the emulators that I've used so far have been at such a high level of I/O. They have all understood drive, track and sector. If you wish to create such an emulator, you can alway post process the archive data ( once ) into whatever format is convenient. There is no particular reason to make archive files emulator friendly. As I've proposed, adding built in language definitions, one could add special purpose functions to do things like extract files based on directory entries. Even if not directly used, existing as source in the archive could provide the emulator writer the methods needed to do such them selves. I'm not saying that we should specifically restrict such from being in the archive file, just that I still don't see why a proper emulator would require such. IMHO Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >would you rather have one format that allows for easy data access and re-creation of media or only be able to re-create media and have a difficult interface in EVERY emulator that needs to access the data? From a usage standpoint, I think putting the burden on the emulators is not a reasonable approach. There are a variety of emulators available do not have to deal with track sector access of information. One uses an import command to bring ms-dos files in for example. To have to write an outside utility that has to know what the image file type is, know the physical layout of the disk, know how the OS accesses files on the disk just to retrieve file data is not a good idea. leave the OS access to the real platform or emulators that want to deal with actual tracks and sectors. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >Sent: Aug 11, 2004 3:05 PM >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > > >>From: spc@conman.org >> >>It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: >>> >>> HOWEVER, this makes it very difficult to use the imagefile on an emulator. >>> To use the floppy disk example again, if the emulator wants Track 14 >>> Sector 8 (or Block 417) but it has not been explicitly laid out in the >>> imagefile because it was originally zeroes, then the emulator, if poorly >>> designed, may crap out. >> >> Are you trying to create an archive format, or a format that is to be used >>by emulators? I say skip the emulators and concentrate on archival >>purposes. An emulator can then use the archive format to create a disk >>image in whatever internal format it requires. >> >> Don't complicate the problem. > > I agree. We only need to provide a format that could be converted >for a specific emulator, not necessarily one that can be conveniently >read by an emulator. >Dwight > >> >> -spc (And don't try to become everything for everybody ... ) >> >> >> >> > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 11 17:55:45 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <411AA3F1.6010209@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Well, thank goodness we won't be having them actually develop the spec > itself :) What I had in mind with them is to help to put into place a > perpetual system of regeneration so that the image library can be updated > as long as there are humans around to do so. Nope, after the collapse of civlization and some He-man sword swinger and female Sex-clone discover the records using forgotten 'magic'. OK I read too much. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 18:02:20 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811153445.F22401@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > to re-iterate, the separate sections I am proposing let the emulator do > this very easily. Embed the format and the data together as pyhsical > information and then the matter of extracting a file for emulation > becomes difficult and not universal. That's an important point. Each person has different uses for it. Steve and I want something that is practical for file extraction (I could replace the sector read code in XenoCopy with some file parsing,...) And for regeneration, there is such a thing as TOO MUCH data. If you try to replicate a disk, where every single bit/flux transition is specified, it is not feasable. There is a reason for "GAP" fields! If you try to replicate the disk, you will not be able to recreate some of the mangled bytes in the write splice fields. Unless you are trying to replicate sopy-protection, you would be WAY better off storing JUST the data, and the specs of the format, and recreating the format instead of trying to replicate it! Instead, a 360K disk should have 360K of data, whether as 360K of binary bytes, or as 720K+ of ASCII hex dump, PLUS just the information that it is 9 512 byte sectors per track. Any exceptions to "standard" formatting could be documented in the header, OR within the data as necessary. For example, a DS Kaypro disk should have the head number field of the sectors on the second side wrongly set to 0. But OTHER people, such as the CAPS project feel a need to replicate every flux transition. Therefore, since this is an extensible spec, I propose that it have a multi-layer structure: (I realize that this will grievously offend those who are insisting on a single invariable structure!) Mundane mode: Header with physical format data, including a flag of whether the data is in binary or ASCII hex dump, followed by a stream of all the user data. In mundane mode, with trivial processing, a machine with an FDC could format the disk and write the data to it, for disks with no abnormalities. File size in binary mode would be only a few blocks (header) larger than the original disk. File size in ASCII hex dump mode would be 3 times the size of the original disk. Either file size could be reduced a bit through RLE. In mundane mode, one CP/M format could be trivially converted to another in cases where the number of reserved tracks and records per block match, just by stepping on the bytes per sector and sectors per track data! In mundane mode, reading alien disks consists of parsing the directory data on the disk enough to determine where each file starts and ends. Minimal quirks mode: Similar to mundane mode, but header could specify (IF KNOWN) any logical interleave, and simple variants from normal formatting (such as the Kaypro DS) Medium quirks mode: Specify the formatting for each and every sector Maximum quirks mode: Specify every miswritten byte, the contents of every gap and sector header field, etc. With minor processing and sent to a CatWeasel/Option board, etc. would produce a decent duplicate of the disk. A binary form of maximum quirks mode could look like the raw bit stream from a Catweasel/Option board. But for practical study, ASCII hex dump mode would be preferable. (look at the TE.COM program of the Option board) From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Aug 11 18:02:31 2004 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Business Computer System References: <20040811053220.78094.qmail@web81007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c47ff7$493fbca0$0c01a8c0@Mike> My understanding is that the Model 10 was sold only at the Fort Worth outlet. It was likely a relabeled system or made to Tandy's spec by another company. It was available for a short while in 1978 between the time of the Model I's introduction and the introduction of the Model II. It's a dead-end on the Tandy evolutionary tree. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:32 AM Subject: Re: Tandy 10 Business Computer System > I have a flyer I picked up for it back in the days when Tandy was selling these. The picture shows a desk with what looks like a terminal of some sort built into the top. To one side is a large box which appears to have 2 8" floppy drives where you'd find the drawers of the desk. The specs are listed as 8080 cpu, 48k memory, 24x80 video display, 2 dual sided diskette drives, extended version of Dartmouth BASIC, ADOS Disk Operating System all for $9,995.00. Fortran compiler for $300.00 and several printer options are also listed. Some other details listed but that's the main part. I picked this up at a Radio Shack Computer Center IIRC. I believe they dropped it about the time they came out with the Model II. > > David > > Fred Cisin wrote: > It was NOT a predecessor to the TRS-80, nor a model 2/12/16. > > While Radio Shack was peddling the TRS-80, > Tandy was trying to peddle some "business" "mini-computer"s. > IIRC, it was built into a desk. I don't know where you had > to go to actually SEE one (I don't think that even the Radio > Shack "computer center"s had them), but Tandy did have a > catalog for them. I have no idea what the specs were. > > LATER, Radio Shack came out with the model 2 (Z80, with 8" drives, > and CP/M capable through third parties, such as Pickles and Trout > or Lifeboat). > Then the models 12 and 16 (Z80 AND 68000!) > > > > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > > > I wonder if they meant a model 16? > > > > Joe > > > > > > At 05:58 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: > > >While reading through an old (1979) book, I came across a reference to a > > Tandy 10 system (complete with picture), as an example of "turnkey > > systems". Judging from the date of publication, I presume this is some > > precursor to the TRS-80, but I have not been able to dig up any more info > > on it. Has anyone else ever heard of such a computer before, and could you > > share your info, please? > > > > > >--T > > > > > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary > From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 11 18:07:17 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408112231.SAA26116@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811185301.04807b68@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > > What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM > > and call it done? > >No! Please! Not for archival purposes! 44.1KHz is good enough for >casual listening, for most people, but it is not good enough for >archival - and for a serious audiophile, it's not enough even for >listening. Just checking, but are we on the same page? If you're talking *music* then I'd agree with you, but if we're talking computer "cassette audio data storage" formats, then I would think 44.1KHz would be more than ample, as standard (or even "data") cassette tapes had nowhere near this quality... ... and it's not like many people would just sit around listing to it on their hi-fi... ;-) >Of course, this is a choice to be made by the person converting the >analog data to digital. I think the format spec should be able to >describe whatever that person chooses; I think it would be a _very_ bad >idea to assume anything about what that choice will be. The format >should be able to handle anything from 3 bits/sample compressed sound >such as I get from my voice modem, or even less, to multi-MHz sample >rates at hundreds of bits per sample (8-eg, channel 32bpp = 256 bits >per sampling tick). For audio, you probably could get away with >capping it at a few GHz sample rate - I'm not sure air can carry >frequences that high - but I see no reason to impose any limit. Well, maybe I'm wrong, but "audio" would assume "audible"... as in you need to be able to hear it. Standards say that would be 20Hz->20KHz, but I'd say DC->25KHz would be better... ... If this archive data is to be around long enough that humans have wiped themselves off the map, and dogs eventually evolve to sentience (assuming they haven't already, and are taking the "perma-retirement" path to enlightment... ;-) then DC->35KHz would probably be about right. Altho I agree that we shouldn't "impose limits" - and the spec should handle as much as possible, I would doubt that there's much analog data out there that would exceed 100KHz; and for audio 35KHz would probably be the max. YMMV, Salt to taste and all that jazz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 18:08:27 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <12383813.1092262618491.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <12383813.1092262618491.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811160525.B22401@shell.lmi.net> truly demented idea: build a hardware device that can read the image file, connects via 34 or 50 pin cable to an FDC, and that produces pulses that look like disk data to the FDC. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 18:10:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project Message-ID: <200408112310.QAA02495@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I sure that there was a FIG-86 listing done( would run on a 8088 ). There is also a large Forth that runs under DOS called FPC that is available over the net. For those that want to create there own smaller '86 Forth, there is a tool called TCOM ( by the same author ) that creates COM files. Since these are just code, they can be made to work on any '86 compatible platform. With minor changes, any target processor can be used( I've used it to create 8051 and Z80 code ). As I recall, the release comes with a number of examples of targeting for other machines. It was mentioned that a Forth could be as small as 32K. I've done quite a few that run in less that 8K of space ( 6K ROM and 2K RAM ). If one doesn't need the interpreter and compiler, 2K systems are quite practical for many applications. These are often done as tethered systems where something like a PC has the compiler and interpreter. The application machine only needs a way to read/write memory, execute and break execution. Dwight >From: "Stan Barr" > >Hi, > >ben franchuk said: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely public >> > domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include >> > the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088. >> >> Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O >> supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a >> version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it. >> Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block, >> write disk block I think is all that is needed. >> Ben. > >Versions of FIGForth were available for quite a few processors. >I've got it running on simh emulating a PDP-11 and I'll copy it >to my Micro 11/73 as soon as I can persuade it to read floppys >written by putr. I'm running it under RT-11 but it can be compiled >to run stand-alone. > >It's quite possible that FigUK may have a FIG listing in their library >and I've possibly got a TRS-80 version somewhere. >-- >Cheers, >Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > >The future was never like this! > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 11 18:13:40 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <16666.7347.687000.11477@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <003a01c47ff8$d714fb70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > To look at it differently -- if you handed someone a CDROM, and a > stack of standards describing it (ISO 9660, the Red Book, etc.) but no > computer and no CDROM drive, is that person likely to have enough > information to recover the data on the disk? I expect the answer is > "no, not even close". I would hope that the standards give you enough information to be able to build a CDROM drive and read back the bits on there. I'm assuming that the stack of standards includes information on the way the bits hang together too (the file-system or whatever). You ould probably not need to build the CDROM drive for just one CD. All you need, in principle, is a high resolution microscope and either a lot of time or some image processing software. What is it that you think is not properly described in the standards? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 11 18:16:13 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092235914.9446.120.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003b01c47ff9$325063d0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I don't know about 4GB, but I'd really like to archive hard > disk images > in the 20-30MB range using the same format if possible... A long-lived archive format that cannot cope with a DVD is not of much use :-) And there's those dual-layer 8+GB things available now, and Blu-Ray (20GB??) soonish and C3D may well eventually produce those 125GB recordable things I read about a few years ago. How hard is it to design a standard with no theoretical size limit? I don't expect my RML380Z to be able to cope with an image of a DVD, but I'd expect today's (and tomorrow's) computers to have a good go! Anotnio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 11 18:19:37 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411A44C7.403@srv.net> Message-ID: <003c01c47ff9$abf91ab0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > The necessity of CRC's depend on what you plan on doing with the data. > If it is just going to be sitting in a nice, safe box, then > it doesn't > matter. True. Unless you've gone to the trouble of archiving the stuff because you would like it to be reliably retrievable at some point in the future. If reliable retrieval in the future is of no concern, then I propose a format conisting of an empty file. At least you'll be certain of what you get :-) Seriously, after all the discussion of bit-rot on various media, how can you consider some sort of checksum to be anything other than essential? Some sort of error-correcting code might be an even better idea. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 11 18:23:54 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003d01c47ffa$450b8170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I read that, and I understand the concerns expressed. But a > first step is > to actually develop a universally recognized format to > archive the data > from various media into. The hard part is coming up with either a > technology that can last millenia, or a system that is > foolproof and will > make sure the archive data is propagated throughout generations. There someone suggesting that the Aliens SETI is looking for might well have stored there messages right under our noses - or rather in them, right in the DNA. Pretty low bandwidth propogation mechanism, but I guess if we design a small creature with lots of junk DNA we can store stuff in ... Of course, we'd need a pretty powerful ECC to be able to retrieve the data in a few thousand years! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 17:41:59 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <41198B16.1020906@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben franchuk" at Aug 10, 4 08:57:26 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely public > > domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include > > the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088. > > Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O What did happen to all the FIGforth source listings? I am very suprised they're not on an ftp site somewhere (but yes, I have looked :-() > supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a It ran on a darn sight more than those 2 processors. There was certainly a Z80-specific version (I bought the listing for that), a 6809 version, a PDP11/LSI11 version, and probably a lot more. > PS did the Jupiter Ace ever have floppy disk? Not offiically, but I wouldn't be suprised if somebody had hacked one on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 17:52:31 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092217306.9446.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 11, 4 09:41:47 am Message-ID: > Agreed with all those. Can I add some important things: > > o) The format should be able to note media errors (I still want to > archive damaged disks whilst some data can be recovered from them) The format should be extendable!. We can't possibly think of everything now, so it's essential that more stuff can be added later. > > o) The format should be able to cope with hard disk images too (i.e. not > make assumptions about only 1 or 2 media surfaces!) Another useful thing would be to handle devices that are regarded as just a linear array of blocks (in other words with no explicit tracks and sectors). Also, to be able to note things like file marks, etc so that magtapes can be archived in the same type of file. > o) Archive format should not be tied to any particular software (i.e. no > assumption is made about what utility is used to read/write the archive > files) Agreed. And to go along with that, there should be no assumption about big/little endian machines, word size, or even what character set is used (I think we're agreed that only printable characters, newlines, and not much else should be used). I think others have said this, but the binary data in a sector/block should be recorded in some hex format. Yes, this wastes space in the archive, but it makes it human readable. And if you want to save space on the machine you're storign the archives on, you can always gzip them or whatever. -tony From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 11 18:28:15 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003e01c47ffa$e025c620$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I would make the specification unassuming about anything like > this. For > example, say there is an optional CRC feature. I would make > the default > for the image be that there was no CRC added to the data > segments, unless > a meta tag was included in the header explicitly specifying > that CRCs are > added. This makes it ever so slightly easier to decode the > image data by > someone who knows nothing of the spec. No assumptions are > made regarding > what people in the future will know about these images. Omitting the CRC when creating the archive is easier than genrating it and then including it. But when reading the archive, having the CRC there does not make anything appreciably harder. You just have to know to ignore the CRC. I think - quite strongly - that the protection mechanism (CRC every so often or whatever), should be mandatory on creation. It's not hard to generate (or check) these days and the maths behind it is widely understood. If our descendants forget how to check them, they can skip them. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Aug 11 18:30:51 2004 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Business Computer System References: <20040811053220.78094.qmail@web81007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013701c47ffb$3e9ef460$0c01a8c0@Mike> Just found a reference to the Tandy 10 in the March 1979 issue of BYTE, page 108. The Tandy 10 was built for Tandy by Digital Data Systems to be sold in its early computer centers. In addition to the Model I, the short piece mentions a Tandy 150, which appears to be a Tandy-assembled minicomputer that used the Computer Automation processor. I've seen photos of the Tandy 10, and know that a few were built, but I can't confirm that the Tandy 150 was ever built. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:32 AM Subject: Re: Tandy 10 Business Computer System > I have a flyer I picked up for it back in the days when Tandy was selling these. The picture shows a desk with what looks like a terminal of some sort built into the top. To one side is a large box which appears to have 2 8" floppy drives where you'd find the drawers of the desk. The specs are listed as 8080 cpu, 48k memory, 24x80 video display, 2 dual sided diskette drives, extended version of Dartmouth BASIC, ADOS Disk Operating System all for $9,995.00. Fortran compiler for $300.00 and several printer options are also listed. Some other details listed but that's the main part. I picked this up at a Radio Shack Computer Center IIRC. I believe they dropped it about the time they came out with the Model II. > > David > > Fred Cisin wrote: > It was NOT a predecessor to the TRS-80, nor a model 2/12/16. > > While Radio Shack was peddling the TRS-80, > Tandy was trying to peddle some "business" "mini-computer"s. > IIRC, it was built into a desk. I don't know where you had > to go to actually SEE one (I don't think that even the Radio > Shack "computer center"s had them), but Tandy did have a > catalog for them. I have no idea what the specs were. > > LATER, Radio Shack came out with the model 2 (Z80, with 8" drives, > and CP/M capable through third parties, such as Pickles and Trout > or Lifeboat). > Then the models 12 and 16 (Z80 AND 68000!) > > > > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > > > I wonder if they meant a model 16? > > > > Joe > > > > > > At 05:58 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote: > > >While reading through an old (1979) book, I came across a reference to a > > Tandy 10 system (complete with picture), as an example of "turnkey > > systems". Judging from the date of publication, I presume this is some > > precursor to the TRS-80, but I have not been able to dig up any more info > > on it. Has anyone else ever heard of such a computer before, and could you > > share your info, please? > > > > > >--T > > > > > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 18:31:28 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811160525.B22401@shell.lmi.net> References: <12383813.1092262618491.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <20040811160525.B22401@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040811162309.B22401@shell.lmi.net> By analogy, consider what would be needed to archive paper documents. If you were trying to design a spec that could replicate dollar bills, I think that you would probably need to store a lot of pixels, and complex data about paper and ink composition. But if you were storing text (such as this discussion?), you would need the ASCII data stream, plus [optionally] a tiny amount of formatting/font data. Using the storage format that contains all of the pixels and complex data about paper and ink composition would be inappropriate. An extensible format, that could expand to include paper and ink data, and image pixels is great, but the extensible format should also be able to shrink down and slough off unneeded, irrelevant stuff when appropriate. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 11 18:53:44 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040811161603.051c8f18@pc> Message-ID: <004101c47ffe$6f87d490$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > And if you want to get really crazy, there's Jerome Fine's > methods of reconstructing faded magtapes by digitizing and > DSP-ing the raw data, or the obscure emulator tools that > can read the data from digitized cassette images of programs > and data. Similar to the idea of recording C64 cassettes via a soudcard and storing as WAV (or whatever) for later playback to a C64 (which thinks the noise if coming in from a cassette player). Sounds perfectly reasonable to me :-) > I wish there was a mechanism like this for recovering > video from 8mm video tape; I have some munged tapes I'd like to > recover someday. Certainly others in the future and present world > could benefit from videotape recovery schemes. And then there's > the NSA's methods of reading erased data from hard disks. Lots of places can do data recovery from dead and erased disks. But doing it for a disk that has had a proper security erase done (i.e. every data-storing physical overwritten with the appropriate multiple patterns) is very hard. I know that it was possible a decade or two ago to go over the platter with an STM and effectively image the off-track remnants of the data. But even then it was time-consuming and not terribly reliable. These days the disks have a hard enough time guessing at what is on the platter :-) > I vote for ASCII and not binary or compressed binary in > the files. Compression is for afterwards and outside. Hear, hear. > With the right code, an emulator could keep the > offsets to the "blocks" and rewrite the hex as needed > in-place. :-) This format should just be a way to preserve data. There will be, of necessity, much more flexibility than any emulator would ever need. The way to avoid complexity for an emulator would be to produce a utility that converts from the archive format (which may contain a bistream or whatever) to an image format which the emulator is happy with. Information is lost in the process, but it's not information the emulator wants or needs. (But don't throw the archive away afterwards :-)). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 19:11:28 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408120011.RAA02524@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >what is wrong with making things easier? ---snip--- Hi I'm not saying to make it impossible to do, just that it shouldn't be considered as a primary purpose. Using an extendable language like I've suggested, one can add such features. Part of the problem is that when someone creates the archive, they may not even know the file structure of the disk. I would expect the specification to be broad enough to allow such. Still, the primary thing is to be able to recreate the original material. To me this means that any input to some emulator may mean that it requires some post processing. How would one know what some some format a particular emulator wanted? How would a person always know how to read the directory structure and be able to extract files? If one wanted to work in all cases, I'd expect that the person writing the emulator would provide the needed post processing to extract such information. Otherwise, they'd only be able to read archives of disk that were specifically created for their system. Those archives that the person didn't know the file structure would be useless unless. Such things are secondary functions. They shouldn't be restricted from being used, it is just that the primary function should be to capture the entire information in as close to the original format as possible. Creating post processors could easily be done as a separate outside function for special purposes. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 19:13:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408120013.RAA02528@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >truly demented idea: >build a hardware device that can read the image file, connects >via 34 or 50 pin cable to an FDC, and that produces pulses >that look like disk data to the FDC. > > > Hi It has already been done. I can look up the web page if you like. Dwight From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Aug 11 19:43:16 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: RT-11 / PDP-11 Software Users References: <200408111939.i7BJdPcL020668@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <411ABD24.2CA5DCE3@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > having a pdp-11/40 on my desk is pretty cool... and I've gotten rid of > > most of my pc software, so until I can find a unibus cdrom controller I'm > > a bit out of luck. > I've not verified that it will work, but a Viking UDT with new enough ROM's > should be able to drive a CD-ROM. I've had both an DEC RRD-42, and Plextor > 6x, and 8x drives attached to my Viking QDT. While my /44 has a Viking UDT > controller in it, it is currently buried in my folks garage for the > forseeable future. Jerome Fine replies: Prior to the V4.x releases of E11, I was able to use a CD using a SCSI CDROM via the command: MOUNT DU0: SCSI0: Of course, that also required the "Full" version of E11. Now (as far as I know), even the hobby version of E11 is able to: MOUNT DU0: CDROMJ: (assumes that the drive letter is "J") BOOT DU0: BUT, I am able to do so ONLY when I use a DVD combo (DVD reader and CD reader/writer). Using the original CDROM (ONLY) drive, the above command under E11 still does not provide access to the first 64 blocks (16 CD sectors) of the CD. So while that lack of access prevents using the first RT-11 partition (PART=0), all of the other RT-11 partitions are still available along with the portion of the first RT-11 partition starting with block 64. This means that E11 can BOOT RT-11 from a correctly configured CD when run with a hardware compatible drive to read the CD and an operating system that is also friendly in the manner that is required. For myself, that means (UGGGH!!!) Windows 98 SE. You can download a Zipped CD image with 13 RT-11 distributions (from V01-15 up to V05.03 of RT-11) from: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ and legally run RT-11 under E11 if you have the correct licenses. Otherwise, use SIMH and the UnZipped image file of the CD using the commands (rather than burning the CD): ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: or under E11, the commands are: MOUNT DU0: RT11DV10.ISO/RONLY BOOT DU0: Or, if you burn the CD, under SIMH just: ATTACH RL0: J:RTV5RL.03 BOOT RL0: or under E11, just: MOUNT DL0: J:RTV5RL.03 BOOT DL0: As for real DEC Qbus hardware, I have a CQD 220/TM host adapter. I have not been able to find a compatible CDROM drive that can read a CD. Does anyone know if an RRD42 and a CQD 220/TM will solve the problem. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 19:41:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811214341.02572109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > > > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > > > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > > > other technology like XML. > > > > XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > > Nope. XML files can be represented in multiple character sets, possibly > including (but certainly not limited to): > > > Best decide this now. Ok, I choose US-ASCII. This will be up for debate I'm sure, but surely US-ASCII is the most widely deployed character set in the world currently? > You might also want to investigate the work on Atom > (a blogging archive/API format in XML) where they are having to deal with an > explostion of character encoding schemes (for a sample of what they're > doing, read http://intertwingly.net/stories/2004/04/14/i18n.html). You might be missing the point of what we're doing here. We're not encapsulating textfiles. We're encapsulating binary data inside textfiles. > My recomendation if you use XML? Mandate the following: > > > > and be done with the mess that is character encoding. I never considered anything else, really. > Also, the more > explicit you are in labling the data, the better. So, for instance: > > ... > > where "bit-encoding" is the format used to encode the data on the physical > disk, and "encoding" is the format used *in the archive* of the data. Just > an example, but the more metadata you include, the better. Well, those are confusing tags. Which is used for the disk encoding and which is used for the imagefile encoding? Sure, if you have the spec you can refresh yourself if you forget, but it's not absolutely obvious to someone who doesn't have the spec. Anyway, point taken. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 11 19:45:26 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:07 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408120045.RAA02547@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Antonio Carlini" > >> The necessity of CRC's depend on what you plan on doing with the data. >> If it is just going to be sitting in a nice, safe box, then >> it doesn't >> matter. > >True. Unless you've gone to the trouble of archiving the >stuff because you would like it to be reliably retrievable >at some point in the future. > >If reliable retrieval in the future is of no concern, >then I propose a format conisting of an empty file. >At least you'll be certain of what you get :-) > >Seriously, after all the discussion of bit-rot on >various media, how can you consider some sort of >checksum to be anything other than essential? > >Some sort of error-correcting code might be an >even better idea. > >Antonio > > Hi Part of the problem here is that if the file containing the archive had any bit rot, most systems designed to read that media would simply fail to read the information. In many cases, it might not even be possible to read the CRC after the error occured. For error correction, one must also realize that one can only correct a single burst of errors that is smaller than a size specified by the correction method. Most of these can at least detect any single bit error. I have been known to recover data from cassette tapes by simply recording all of the data that comes out and modifying the data after the error. In my case, it was machester encoded and, by flipping and shifting the data, I was able to determine the size of the missing data. In some cases, the check sum was used to replace the missing bits. Still, in this case, I was able to bypass the normal code that read the media. I'm not against putting CRC's in, I'm just stating that there are limitations to its usefulness if something is lost other than to detect the loss. To keep from losing things still takes full redundency. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 20:07:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <11703665.1092260872754.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation of > media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do that and > have its only function be to maintain a physical data format. My added > idea is that the data and the formatting be separated so that a simple > utility on a non-target platform could extract data from the image file. This can be done anyway. Parsing the tags should not be too difficult. And unless someone can come up with an elegant way of doing it, what you're proposing will require two sets of data in the imagefile: one in the structured format and one in an unstructured format. I suppose tags could be added to specify this is the case so that "lazy" programs don't have to go through all the trouble of parsing the structured data. > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data > then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to > retrieve any internal file representation. My idea would make the file > re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed for the > actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes the emulator > easier. You're describing an imagefile that contains a filesystem image, rather than, say, a disk image. This can be accomodated in the spec, but it's a different type of image than what we've been discussing. Remember, I envision the spec being able to handle: 1) A filesystem image (as you describe) 2) An image in "logical" format (i.e. blocks structured in tracks and sectors for a floppy, or cards for a punch card deck) 3) An image in "raw" format (a bit stream, or the actual punched holes from a punch card deck) And there's actually a: 2.5) Magnetic media at a level below the "logical" format (decoded tracks and sectors) but above a bit-stream, which would be the raw sectors on a disk or tape including address headers, data headers, prologue/epilogue bytes, sync bytes, etc. > To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end of this > message, the emulator must know the actual disk format that is used on > the target system (the one the image file was made for). I have seen Right. If you choose to store an image in the raw disk format. > cp/m systems where the actual physical sectors were sequential on disk > and the OS file sector was actually virtual to increase speed. Not my > idea of the way to do it. It is much easier to make the physical sectors > slewed so that a physical sector is a file sector. These are the types > of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator must totally > understand each and every file system for a cp/m version for example. It's up to emulator writers to read the spec and adapt to it. We'll make the spec as flexible as possible, but first and foremost, the spec is intended to archive images of data media, and not to serve as a universal emulator image format (though it should be able to be used as such). > Sellam, let me know if you would like to discuss this via telephone so I > can convery the idea that I am proposing. I think I understand what you're saying. Let me know if I still don't get it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dancohoe at oxford.net Wed Aug 11 20:09:04 2004 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: HP 7906 In-Reply-To: <01ad01c47fcd$803fbae0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <002c01c48008$f67e1bd0$6501a8c0@DCOHOE> > Subject: Re: HP 7906 > > > Thanks for checking Joe. I'm trying to get my last 7906 > refurb done for > another collector, and so far I think a spindle motor is the > only fly in the > ointment. The 7905/06 spindle motors are interchangeable. > > Jay > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > So..I guess I'd better get working on my end-of-the-line 7905 to get a spindle motor out eh? Dan From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 20:32:54 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <30086167.1092274375474.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I did not say it was the primary purpose. The data blocks work hand in hand with the formatting information. It is fine to make a standard extensible, but what good does it do if the (I hate the use the word) file can't be gotten without jumping through major hoops because how the data was stored in the image file wasn't extended out to make blocks. If you have to iterate through formatting information to get data then you have to be intimately familiar with the disk format in use. It means any GENERAL utility to read an image file for data access will have to KNOW about all machione supported rather than just getting some type of data identifier and reading the data out. I think part of the problem here is that the word file is being taken literally to mean filename, size, data, etc. I am using in the context of a block of data. It has NOTHING to do with how the data is on the disk, where it is stored, the recording format, etc. It is just a piece of data... Sellam in a later email thought that I was proposing that the data be duplicated twice - one for file access and one for format data - NO, that is not what I was talking about. The formatting information contains no data other that what may be necessary for things outside of what is considered a sector on a drive such as address mark, etc(note: this does not preclude sequential data - I am only using this as a specific example in this email). I am talking about two separate sections inside the same image file. One of the sections contains data blocks. The other has specific formatting information and POINTS to the data in the data blocks. A utility program could then SIMPLY get any type of data out of the image file without the utility being out of date as soon as someone added a new physical format. I have tried to make this email as clear as possible, so there is no misunderstanding of what I have proposed. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Aug 11, 2004 8:11 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >what is wrong with making things easier? ---snip--- Hi I'm not saying to make it impossible to do, just that it shouldn't be considered as a primary purpose. Using an extendable language like I've suggested, one can add such features. Part of the problem is that when someone creates the archive, they may not even know the file structure of the disk. I would expect the specification to be broad enough to allow such. Still, the primary thing is to be able to recreate the original material. To me this means that any input to some emulator may mean that it requires some post processing. How would one know what some some format a particular emulator wanted? How would a person always know how to read the directory structure and be able to extract files? If one wanted to work in all cases, I'd expect that the person writing the emulator would provide the needed post processing to extract such information. Otherwise, they'd only be able to read archives of disk that were specifically created for their system. Those archives that the person didn't know the file structure would be useless unless. Such things are secondary functions. They shouldn't be restricted from being used, it is just that the primary function should be to capture the entire information in as close to the original format as possible. Creating post processors could easily be done as a separate outside function for special purposes. Dwight From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 20:41:58 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <26273842.1092274919270.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Sellam, I sent off another email with a comment with regards to what I was proposing. There is a misunderstanding with regards to what I was proposing. I was not looking at having two copies of the data. Only one is required and that is what the formatting information references when it needs sector data. I think it would be better at this point for us all to try and understand all the facits of what is being done. My proposal for the data blocks are not a file specification per se. I would gather that a data block would consist of a descriptor that would indicate how many blocks comprise the data, a data type such as "file", internal data (boot sector), block ID for use with the formatting info. The formatting info would tell whether it is sequential, track/sector oriented, etc. There is no need to create a bunch of different types. Even your description created two distinct formats for data. I was being more generic in that a engineering design for a image file could be created that was not difficult and could satisfy both EASY emulator access for non-physical media access and image file description for another tool to actually create the media required. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 11, 2004 9:07 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation of > media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do that and > have its only function be to maintain a physical data format. My added > idea is that the data and the formatting be separated so that a simple > utility on a non-target platform could extract data from the image file. This can be done anyway. Parsing the tags should not be too difficult. And unless someone can come up with an elegant way of doing it, what you're proposing will require two sets of data in the imagefile: one in the structured format and one in an unstructured format. I suppose tags could be added to specify this is the case so that "lazy" programs don't have to go through all the trouble of parsing the structured data. > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data > then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to > retrieve any internal file representation. My idea would make the file > re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed for the > actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes the emulator > easier. You're describing an imagefile that contains a filesystem image, rather than, say, a disk image. This can be accomodated in the spec, but it's a different type of image than what we've been discussing. Remember, I envision the spec being able to handle: 1) A filesystem image (as you describe) 2) An image in "logical" format (i.e. blocks structured in tracks and sectors for a floppy, or cards for a punch card deck) 3) An image in "raw" format (a bit stream, or the actual punched holes from a punch card deck) And there's actually a: 2.5) Magnetic media at a level below the "logical" format (decoded tracks and sectors) but above a bit-stream, which would be the raw sectors on a disk or tape including address headers, data headers, prologue/epilogue bytes, sync bytes, etc. > To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end of this > message, the emulator must know the actual disk format that is used on > the target system (the one the image file was made for). I have seen Right. If you choose to store an image in the raw disk format. > cp/m systems where the actual physical sectors were sequential on disk > and the OS file sector was actually virtual to increase speed. Not my > idea of the way to do it. It is much easier to make the physical sectors > slewed so that a physical sector is a file sector. These are the types > of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator must totally > understand each and every file system for a cp/m version for example. It's up to emulator writers to read the spec and adapt to it. We'll make the spec as flexible as possible, but first and foremost, the spec is intended to archive images of data media, and not to serve as a universal emulator image format (though it should be able to be used as such). > Sellam, let me know if you would like to discuss this via telephone so I > can convery the idea that I am proposing. I think I understand what you're saying. Let me know if I still don't get it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 11 20:42:37 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: <11703665.1092260872754.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811212711.04cf1b18@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data > > then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to > > retrieve any internal file representation. I don't wanna sound like a doofus, but: So? > My idea would make the file > > re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed for the > > actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes the emulator > > easier. > >You're describing an imagefile that contains a filesystem image, rather >than, say, a disk image. This can be accomodated in the spec, but it's a >different type of image than what we've been discussing. It could be accommodated, but why should it when it would be easier for someone to build a converter into an emulator image file? This spec (as far as I understand it) is going to be read-only anyway - this is for archiving after all. What happens when the emulator tries to rewrite the disk image (say, from saving a modified file)? What will happen to the original archive? >It's up to emulator writers to read the spec and adapt to it. Bam. That hit the thumbnail right on the head. ;-) > We'll make >the spec as flexible as possible, but first and foremost, the spec is >intended to archive images of data media, and not to serve as a universal >emulator image format (though it should be able to be used as such). I'd like to add that IMHO it should be "read-only" so the emulator doesn't destroy the archive when it rewrites certain sectors and/or files. At least that's my take on the deal... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Aug 11 21:45:20 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: RT-11 / PDP-11 Software Users Message-ID: <411AD9C0.83DF4662@compsys.to> The reason the subject is for "Software Users" is that ""Hardware Users" will probably want to use ONLY standard DEC distributions of RT-11 which sufficiently exercise the real PDP-11 hardware. The goal of this post is to reach and elicit comments from all of those hobby RT-11 Users who want the bugs fixed and / or want some enhancements. I suppose that it might even be possible that there are some commercial RT-11 users who might be interested, but at this point I am not aware of any and doubt very much that any commercial RT-11 users would be sufficiently interested. BUT, if you are still there, it might still be possible to accommodate the commercial side. The ISO file for a CD with 13 RT-11 distributions is available for download at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ The file is: RT11DV10.ISO.zip The CD contains 13 RT-11 distributions from V01-15 up to V05.03 under both the ISO9660 file structure along with 4 RT-11 directories for the 4 RT-11 partitions on the CD. A rather unique aspect of the CD is that none of the files in the ISO9660 file structure are duplicated. The RT-11 directory entries point to the same location on the CD for the same file in each case. In addition, if SIMH is able to ATTACH the CD as as single file, then it will be possible to actually BOOT the CD under RT-11. Otherwise, just BOOT the container file RT11DV10.ISO, after it is copied to the hard drive (UnZipped actually), under RT-11 as in: ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: It is STRONGLY recommended that NO changes of any kind be made to the ISO file under RT-11, even by experienced RT-11 users. The reasons are explained in the 2 README files. NOTE that all of the images for the RK05 and RL02 media have been truncated - all of the contiguous blocks with zeros at the end of the file image have been removed. The primary reason was so that more of these file images would fit on each RT-11 partition. Specifically, since all RL02 file images are 20,450 blocks, ONLY 3 would fit on each RT-11 partition. In addition, even if the full image of 20,450 blocks were present, it would still not be possible to use each file as a correct file image in all situations under SIMH since the system area needed for the INITIALIZE command under RT-11 would NOT be present. IF the RT-11 user wishes to copy the truncated file image to a "fully functional" RL02 container file to be used under SIMH, then copy the file ZEROSDL.DSK at the end of the CD as in: C:\>COPY D:ZEROSDL.DSK C:RT11V5.03 C:\>PDP11 simh>ATTACH RL0: D:RTV5RL.03 simh>SET RL0: LOCK simh>ATTACH RL1: C:RT11V5.03 simh>BOOT RL0: COPY/DEVICE DL0: DL1: NOTE that the file ZEROSDL.DSK was created by using PUTR to: (C:\)>FORMAT ZEROSDL.DSK/RL02 A big thank you to John Wilson at: http://ww.dbit.com/pub/putr/ For those RT-11 users who have a legal license to run RT-11 under E11, there are two alternatives. If the user has a DVD drive or CDROM drive which allows the first 64 blocks (16 CD sectors) to be read under E11, the it is possible to MOUNT the complete CD as an image as in: E11>MOUNT DU0: CDROMD:/RONLY Of course, it is also possible use the actual ISO image file of the CD as in: E11>MOUNT DU0: C:RT11DV10.ISO/RONLY OR, if the files are on a CD and the user prefers: E11>MOUNT DL0: D:RTV5RL.03/RONLY Depending on the option that the user prefers, the complete text would be: C:\>COPY D:ZEROSDL.DSK C:RT11V5.03 C:\>E11 E11>MOUNT DU0: CDROMD:/RONLY E11>MOUNT DL1: C:RT11V5.03 E11>BOOT DU0: COPY/DEVICE/FILES DU0:RTV5RL.03 DL1: If anyone requires any help in using V1-0 of the CD, please ask!!!!!!!! MY BACKGROUND -------------- I am an RT-11 software addict. I don't know why, but maybe a partial answer is because I have OCB (Obsessive Compulsive Behaviour). In any case, I have used RT-11 off and on for almost 30 years (mostly ON) since I started with V02 of RT-11. I can't remember a single year, since, when I did not use RT-11 some of the time and some years I probably spent more than 4000 hours designing, writing and debugging RT-11 software. I am presently in the midst of fixing bugs and making some of the enhancements mentioned below. PURPOSE OF THIS POST ----------------------- This point is to ask if there are any RT-11 users, either active or inactive, who want to see any of the RT-11 bugs fixed along with enhancements added. While I believe that these news groups are the best means of making contact, perhaps others exist as well. PLEASE mention any other method of contacting RT-11 users. INDEED, PLEASE forward this message to them if you know of any other RT-11 users who may still be interested. LIST OF ITEMS TO BE CONSIDERED ----------------------------------- (a) Bugs! There are a (large??) number of bugs, some of which are able to crash RT-11. Identifying them (probably the biggest part of the problem) as well as fixing them will be a large part of the effort. (b) Enhancements are also very important. Just a few are: - A Path Handler - Enhancements to the MSCP device driver - Enhancements to the SL: (Single Line Editor) - Y2K for older versions followed by Y9K - Enhancements to the BINCOM program - Enhancements to the VBGEXE program - Allow use of SET commands with ANY file - Increase the precision of the TIME command to 1 tick followed by 1 msec - Being able to BOOT an LD: file While I am aware of a VERY small number of RT-11 users, the more that are still interested, the more ideas that can be generated. Please reply, either by private e-mail (first fix my munged e-mail address since the original e-mail address is no longer active) or else send a post and I will reply privately if so requested. I am also sending this post to classiccmp.org, so if you are a member of that list, you can reply either to that list or directly to me in a private manner if you so choose. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 11 21:47:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <12383813.1092262618491.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > would you rather have one format that allows for easy data access and > re-creation of media or only be able to re-create media and have a > difficult interface in EVERY emulator that needs to access the data? Personally, I would rather have exactly ONE specification that can be used in multiple ways depending on how the person making the archive wants it to work. Whether this is convenient or not for an emulator is not the primary concern. Again, the primary concern is archiving images. Allow the archive to be used in an emulator is a lesser concern. > From a usage standpoint, I think putting the burden on the emulators is > not a reasonable approach. Why? They have the full advantage of being able to be written any way the emulator writer needs to. The archival specification is of a single purpose: to archive data media. > There are a variety of emulators available do > not have to deal with track sector access of information. One uses an > import command to bring ms-dos files in for example. To have to write an > outside utility that has to know what the image file type is, know the > physical layout of the disk, know how the OS accesses files on the disk > just to retrieve file data is not a good idea. Why? The spec is documented and available everywhere. If an emulator writer doesn't know how to read a spec then they can use their own image format. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 11 22:40:57 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Drive format spreadsheet questions Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811233045.03ac3e90@mail.30below.com> http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/classics/driveformats.html It's new, it's rough, it's mainly to figure out what kinds of data we need here -- right now, I can see that we need 2 spreadsheets; one for physical drive formats, and one for OS layouts. (and yes, it's evil HTML -> StarOffice 6.0 "saved as .html". I ain't goin' fer pretty yet... ;-) ) Believe me, I realize that it's not anywhere perfect... so I'm asking for more input for whatever (many things) I've forgotten to include. If you have info for different disk formats, please feel free to include them, but please be aware that they may not be integrated until the format is more solid. Jay, I dunno if the addresses are munged in the archives... so I'm going to err on the side of caution here. I have 1 mailing address that as yet gets no spam (so has no spam-filter), and its: {my Ham radio callsign} @30below.com. (If you wanna go the hard way to find it, go here: http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchLicense.jsp and search for "Merchberger" and look for my active one.) If not, I'll use the phonetic alphabet, hopefully spammers haven't figured that one out yet for the spiders: Alpha Bravo Ait Kilo Kilo That address gets very little email (unlike my main address which gets around 500 emails/day) so I'll see things quickly there... and also, the main email is personal/work/mailer-daemon/root/catchall/whatever and also has a spamfilter, so I might miss one email there. Rare, but it can (and unforch, does) happen. This way, guaranteed not to be missed in any way. ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 11 22:42:35 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811185301.04807b68@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811185301.04807b68@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200408120358.XAA27113@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM >>> and call it done? >> No! Please! Not for archival purposes! > Just checking, but are we on the same page? If you're talking > *music* then I'd agree with you, but if we're talking computer > "cassette audio data storage" formats, then I would think 44.1KHz > would be more than ample, Oh, I agree with you there. I assumed this was for recording things where the original intent was audio, not data that simply happened to be encoded as audio. >> For audio, you probably could get away with capping it at a few GHz >> sample rate - I'm not sure air can carry frequences that high - > Well, maybe I'm wrong, but "audio" would assume "audible"... as in > you need to be able to hear it. For some purposes. For uses that involve humans listening to it, yes; but if maybe someone wants to analyze normally inaudible overtones from a speech, they'd better be there to analyze! (Actually, the cap could probably be in the MHz....) > Standards say that would be 20Hz->20KHz, but I'd say DC->25KHz would > be better... It would. Certainly go down to the DC. I understand that a small but decent percentage of the population (mostly children) can hear as high as 25KHz, and I'd definitely want a good deal of headroom above that. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Aug 12 01:38:38 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: RESCUED: pristine systems (DEC) Message-ID: All, Just to let you know I followed up to Lyle's message, and went to see those guys (with Lyle) to see what is there. I am going in there tomorrow morning, and will save the systems from the oven. Basically, we have: - MicroVAX 3600 with RA82 (my new baby ;-) - extra rack filled with 6 pcs RA92 - Cipher magtape unit, frontloader (not in rack) - two VAX 4000(-500A) systems - a stack of BA42 storage expanders with various drives - a stack of MicroVAX 3100 -M38 and -M76 systems - two what seem to be DECsystem 5500 systems - one more VAX 3600 .. and some little things. If you have an interest in any of this (cept the 3600- tis mine!) please contact me off-list so we can work something out. Warning: RA92 dont ship well. This means that it will probably be pickup only, sorry. --f From cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de Thu Aug 12 02:42:07 2004 From: cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Wolfgang=20Eichberger?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: RESCUED: pristine systems (DEC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040812074207.92345.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, are the Vax4000 still available? I'd love to have one, but I assume shipping cost would be very much. Do there any drives or controllers with them? I don't know much about the DecSystems - do you have any details? I hope we can arrange something. Best Regards, Wolfgang Eichberger --- "Fred N. van Kempen" schrieb: > All, > > Just to let you know I followed up to Lyle's message, and > went to see those guys (with Lyle) to see what is there. > I am going in there tomorrow morning, and will save the > systems from the oven. Basically, we have: > > - MicroVAX 3600 with RA82 (my new baby ;-) > - extra rack filled with 6 pcs RA92 > - Cipher magtape unit, frontloader (not in rack) > - two VAX 4000(-500A) systems > - a stack of BA42 storage expanders with various drives > - a stack of MicroVAX 3100 -M38 and -M76 systems > - two what seem to be DECsystem 5500 systems > - one more VAX 3600 > > .. and some little things. If you have an interest in any > of this (cept the 3600- tis mine!) please contact me off-list > so we can work something out. > > Warning: RA92 dont ship well. This means that it will probably > be pickup only, sorry. > > --f > > ===== ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang@eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 100MB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 12 03:12:59 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:38:18 MDT." <411A9FDA.6050003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ben franchuk said: > BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? > Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 12 05:32:44 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092306764.10829.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 00:41, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > > > > > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > > > > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > > > > other technology like XML. > > > > > > XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > > > > Nope. XML files can be represented in multiple character sets, possibly > > including (but certainly not limited to): > > > > > > > Best decide this now. > > Ok, I choose US-ASCII. This will be up for debate I'm sure, but surely > US-ASCII is the most widely deployed character set in the world currently? *if* we've decided that it's sensible to use XML for this over some mechanism, then does it matter? I thought that to be compliant with the XML spec, the XML document should say what version of the spec and what character encoding it uses? In other words, who cares what charset is used - people can use whatever charset makes sense for them. It just needs to be spelled out that it's mandatory to say which charset is in use for the archive to be valid. Someone in Japan, say, may well want to fill in data fields in the archive (such as description) using their native language. We shouldn't stop them from doing this and force them to use a single-byte character set such as ASCII. I'd rather future generations stumble across an archive in Japanese and have to translate it if necessary at the time, rather than say someone in Japan who wasn't too good at English be forced to fill in data in English and end up with ambiguous information. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 12 05:34:41 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408120013.RAA02528@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408120013.RAA02528@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1092306880.10829.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 00:13, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Fred Cisin" > > > >truly demented idea: > >build a hardware device that can read the image file, connects > >via 34 or 50 pin cable to an FDC, and that produces pulses > >that look like disk data to the FDC. > > > Hi > It has already been done. I can look up the web page if you like. > Dwight yes, please :-) I remember asking about this a while back, specifically wondering if a PC parallel port was fast enough to drive it (not without buffering at some sort of level, it seemed) I wouldn't mind seeing what someone else has come up with. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 12 05:43:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <11985891.1092264873719.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <11985891.1092264873719.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1092307391.10829.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 22:54, Steve Thatcher wrote: > what is wrong with making things easier? If a small amount of effort > could be put out to make the image file have a more useful purpose > then to ONLY be able to create media, why not? Your view seems to be to > make all the emulators tyhat are currently available not work anymore > because now they have to be modified to access an image file. My > idea is to not change all that, make the image file simple enough to > extract data. I'd strongly recommend doing exactly that. Keep the data seperate from the metadata describing it. Mixing the two really detracts from the human readability aspect for starters - browsing a file with nicely formatted structured data peppered with streams of encoded media data (whether hex pairs, base64 or whatever) would give me a headache :-) Aside from that, as Steve says, if someone wants to access the media data itself without worrying about the extra cruft in the archive, they can. We've all seen good specs die before simply because they wasn't enough of an incentive to use them outside of their specialised area - as a viable project this is much more likely to work if it's easy to adopt by anyone who currently has tools to do a similar thing (or a subset thereof) cheers J. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 05:48:11 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <411B670B.17755.E8B640C@localhost> Second try ------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht / Forwarded message ------- Von: Hans Franke An: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Betreff: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Datum: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:16:36 +0200 Am 11 Aug 2004 12:08 meinte Jules Richardson: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 10:50, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > Hi all, after reading all this morning's posts, I thought I would throw out some thoughts. > > XML as a readable format is a great idea. > I haven't done any serious playing with XML in the last couple of years, > but back when I did, my experience was that XML is not a good format for > mixing human-readable and binary data within the XML structure itself. Only if you intend to keep it 100% human readable. > To make matters worse, the XML spec (at least at the time) did not > define whether it was possible to pass several XML documents down the > same data stream (or, as we'd likely need for this, XML documents mixed > with raw binary). Typically, parsers of the day expected to take control > of the data stream and expected it to contain one XML document only - > often closing the stream themselves afterwards. Now, that's a feature of the reading application. XML does not stat what happens next since this is outside the scope. It is perfectly op to look for the next Document, or the next start tag of the same document type, or for whatever. > I did end up writing my own parser in a couple of KB of code which was a > little more flexible in data stream handling (so XML's certainly not a > heavyweight format, and could likely be handled on pretty much any > machine), but it would be nice to make use of off-the-shelf parsers for > platforms that have them where possible. Right, but especialy when we're coming down to classic platforms, such building blocks are not always usable, and in general way oversized. On a 48k Apple (or a 64 K 4 MHz CP/M machine) we don't have the space to just port a C-app that has 'only' 100k of code size. So reader/writer applications for the original environment have to be small and special to type. > As you've also said, my initial thought for a data format was to keep > human-readable config seperate from binary data. The human-readable > config would contain a table of lengths/offsets for the binary data > giving the actual definition. This does have the advantage that if the > binary data happens to be a linear sequence of blocks (sectors in the > case of a disk image) then the raw image can easily be extracted if > needs be (say, to allow conversion to a different format) Well, that is only true if you define binary data as 8 Bit and all means of transport as 100% transparent. Just, this hasn't worked that way in the past, and I doubt that we will be safe from changes in the future. As for the character size: we had in the past everything from 6 to 12 Bit (ok, I can't remember 11 Bit characters/words) as 'binary' characters. Of course 6,7 and 8 Bit Bytes can be easy stored in a 8 Bit Byte, but what about 9 Bit (Bull) or 12 (DEC)? At that point you already have to incooperate speciual trans- formation rules which are not necersary transparent. Also for the requirement of a transparent transport: When transfering files between different architectures we usualy have code or even format conversions. Most notable code conversion would be, for example, ISO 8859-1 <-> EBCDIC which totally destroys the 'binary' part. Or take format conversions as done on the way between Unix style files and (Win-)DOS, LF vs CR/LF. Whenever you leave the A-Z and 0-9 range we are likely to encounter such problems. Shure, one could code an app capable to read ASCII/Binary on a EBCDIC Machine and vice versa, but to my experience (doing programming since 25 years in mixed environments) it's not only a boring job, but also one of the most sensitive to errors. Any kind of standard format must be true machine independent. Thus (at least when using the recommended representation) be able to be transferred across all platforms thinkable of. > > I looked at the CAPS format and in part that would be okay. I would like > > to throw in an idea of whatever we create as a standard actually have > > three sections to it. > So, first section is all the 'fuzzy' data (author, date, version info, > description etc.), second section describes the layout of the binary > data (offsets, surfaces, etc.), and the third section is the raw binary > data itself? If so, I'm certainly happy with that :-) I would rather go for an anoted format, where more detailed information can be added at any point, and not necersary in certain sections. Especialy since the 'fuzzy' data is usualy not needed for the job itself. > One aside - what's the natural way of defining data on a GCR floppy? Do > heads/sectors/tracks still make sense as an addressing mode, but it's > just that the number of sectors per track varies according to the track > number? Or isn't it that simple? Well, that's already outside of what a standard definition can define without doubt. To my understanding interpretation of Data is always part of a real application. As soon as it touches machine or format specific implementation details a standard may only give guidelines how to store them properly, but not how to interprete. That's part of an actual reader implementation. And each rader will of course only understand parts he's made for - e.g. a Apple DOS 3.3 reader will have no idea what a tape label for a IBM tape is not to mention be able to differentiate between the various header types. Reader/Writer apps will always be as specific as they are right now, when handling a proprietary format. The big advantage is that intermediate tools, like archiving, indexing, etc.pp can be shared. Well, in fact it's the only advantage, except the fact that one doesn't have to figure out a new format each time, and the simple format does allow the ad hoc inclusion of new machines/systems. Gruss H. --- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht / End of forwarded message --- -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 06:11:18 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple Message-ID: <20568369.1092309078565.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. try: a place to put whatever relevant information is needed about the format or achive or your favorite poem or joke Tandy Model 100 Ian Blindly 5.25" floppy MFM? RLL? something ... 35 1 18 8 ... 456789ABCDEF... 1234567890A... 890ABCDEF01245... 456789ABCDEF... 456789ABCDEF... 1234567890A... 890ABCDEF01245... 456789ABCDEF... 456789ABCDEF... 1234567890A... 890ABCDEF01245... 456789ABCDEF... please don't get hung up on names, etc, The basic structure is what I have been talking about. A utility can go into the archive file, find a , know what it is and extract it without having to know anything about the OS. Another utility can read the media, datamap, and datablocks to re-create tracks in memory to then write out to disk. There was earlier talk about years from now being able to still re-create disks. I think that is a fine ambition, but that still requires all the hardware and intimate OS knowledge to still be around. My idea was to at least be able to extract the data without having to have ANY knowledge of the OS. best regards, Steve Thatcher From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 06:32:36 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AD8@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <411B7174.8315.EB40D4A@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 15:41 meinte Cini, Richard: > >>XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > Yes, true, but I think of XML more as a Web technology requiring a complex > parsing engine. Naa, XML parsing is as simple as parsing any other tagged format. You just start at the beginning of the data stream and wait for a tag start ('<'), identify the tab, and process the following information (until the closing tag) as needed. That's all. For my own little XML data storage I did an XML reader and writer in Applesoft Basic in a few dozend lines. That's all what's needed. Shure, if you want to do super-dooper-crunch-every-thing readers, then it get's a bit more complex, but these are not realy needed for real world applications (aka the ones realy getting the data from a media or putting it back). > Another comment was made about the difference between what's actually on the > media versus what the CPU actually sees. We would thus need to capture the > raw data stream from the "heads" side of the controller in order to > regenerate a usable original media from the metafile. Not necersarry. it depends on the level you want to do. To me, 95% of all media are written according to the standards described for that media. Of course, if you look at the Amiga stuff, their main concern are games with various kinds of protection schemes and non standard encodings. In fact, for most stuff even a logic definition based on the concept of directories and files is sufficient. The average disk can be duplicated on file level, an has not necersarry be duplicated on block level, since the applications don't care. So why storeing such stuff as disk image that preserves blocks? > For emulator use, we can grind this metafile through a translation program > to get the bytestream. OR, the metafile could contain both types of data > (using the container file and metadirectory idea from earlier). > What we really need is PDF for magnetic media :-) XML is the (base for a) PDF for digital media. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 06:32:35 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811123111.G16212@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <411B7173.30380.EB40CDC@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 12:31 meinte Fred Cisin: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > You might want to consider Motorola rather than Intel. > OK, the header is also going to have to have an Endian flag! For what? -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 06:35:41 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: <1092257039.9446.242.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <411B722D.29979.EB6E37C@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 14:24 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I still don't like it. As Roger M. pointed out, what will the binary data > > > look like after it's been paraded through several different platforms? > > Well going back to the image example, it's like trying to ftp a TIFF > > image to a remote server in ASCII mode. It's going to mess up, but > > anyone with any smarts either knows not to transfer in that way because > > it's going to mess up, or they inspect the data and realise that it > > can't be transferred as ASCII. If people didn't learn by being told > > something, common sense, or from their mistakes, then we probably all > > wouldn't still be here :-) > Hmmm. Ok, stupid me. Several years back, I transferred all my stored > e-mails (both received and sent) from the ISP I used to use to my own > server. I gzipped the files so they would be smaller and then used FTP to > transfer them over. I then deleted the original files and went on my > merry business. > Sometime later, when I wanted to access those files, they would not > unzip. It was then that I realized I ftp'd them in ASCII mode. DOH! > DOH! DOH! > So I'm not terribly smart, but I'm no George Bush either. I forgot that I > had to put FTP into binary mode before transferring those files. > This sort of error can propagate quite easily. I'd rather not rely on > people to remember to switch to binary mode when they transfer large > archives of imaged media. And I'd hate for an archive that was > transferred this way to become a defacto archive of a specific set of > important imaged data, only to find out years or decades down the road > that they are completely useless because the binary data is missing its > eight bit. I vey much like that reasoining. Ok, your argument might be considered weak by a lot of people, since Zips, Exes and such are quite common offered over the web nowadays, but still, it shows exactly my concern with binary data on the way between machines ... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 12 06:50:47 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: <20568369.1092309078565.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <20568369.1092309078565.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1092311446.10829.52.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:11, Steve Thatcher wrote: > here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. > [snip] That looks good. How's about moving things like author into the definitions section? I'm not sure that it belongs at the top level, but more in the section containing archive info (description, creation date etc.) I'd suggest making certain fields mandatory in what you've called the definitions section. People tend to be lazy, which means the temptation is there to create an archive and not bother to include much of the information, thinking that they'll know what it is a few years down the line. We've all be caught out by that one! (author, date, description are good candidates for mandatory fields; there'll be others too) I'm not so sure about having the actual data within the archive element; I'd rather have it afterwards. Data in your datamap section still points to chunks of data, using whatever scheme is understood by the storage/compression system used by the archive. But then the possibility is there for using an encoding method that doesn't mix with XML data if needs be. It also makes it easy to scan the archive section by eye as it's not mixed up with huge chunks of encoded media data. Actually, you could probably build collections of media archives (say for some common platform) all within the same file that way, without breaking the format - the data in the datamap section of the first archive section just points to other archives within the same file. That's kinda neat. eg. (simplifying a little for example purposes): ... as before ... ... as before ... ... .... .... .. that way anything following the archive section doesn't have to be XML data even, providing the definition within the datamap section for the encoding/compression scheme used by the archive can reach it. It might be zipped data, other archive definitions, whatever. cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 12 06:58:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411B7174.8315.EB40D4A@localhost> References: <411B7174.8315.EB40D4A@localhost> Message-ID: <1092311929.10829.60.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:32, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 11 Aug 2004 15:41 meinte Cini, Richard: > > > >>XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > > > Yes, true, but I think of XML more as a Web technology requiring a complex > > parsing engine. > > Naa, XML parsing is as simple as parsing any other tagged format. > You just start at the beginning of the data stream and wait for > a tag start ('<'), identify the tab, and process the following > information (until the closing tag) as needed. That's all. For > my own little XML data storage I did an XML reader and writer in > Applesoft Basic in a few dozend lines. That's all what's needed. > > Shure, if you want to do super-dooper-crunch-every-thing readers, > then it get's a bit more complex, but these are not realy needed > for real world applications (aka the ones realy getting the data > from a media or putting it back). Absolutely. There's a few gotchas, like if the opening tag ends with /> rather than > then you don't go scanning for a closing tag, and I seem to recall having to do some strange things with character data fields when parsing (plus there were probably caveats about escaping quotes in attribute fields etc. - it's been a while) Certainly nothing too complex though; error handling of the XML format's probably the bit that takes most of the effort (coping with malformed data without crashing the parser or eating up memory etc.) cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 12 07:14:47 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: Suggestion to the list.... This topic looks like it is gaining some serious momentum! However it is also getting very hard to follow [at least to me] due to the nature of the list and is "over-taking" the list. It might be a good idea if an alternative (enhanced) venue could be arranged. It seems a dedicated forum [not list] might be a good idea. This way the ideas could be divided into distinct areas and threads. Files attached, etc. Of course most forums are [...aack..] Windows based, so this might annoy some members. I can actually host a dedicated forum for this purpose if it seems like a good idea. The forum can be moderated or open [users will of course have to register]. If this seems like a good idea, please let me know VIA DIRECT E-MAIL. David V. Corbin President Dynamic Concepts Development Corp Sayville, New York david@dynamicconcepts.us From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 07:16:55 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple Message-ID: <17365377.1092313015393.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> the keyword arrangement was just a waking thought this morning and is not cast in codecrete. Required fields is definitely a good thing as long as the info is really necessary. The only data that was in the media section was data that was specific to to media such as fill bytes, address marks, etc. Also, I kept a sub block arrangement because a single datablock was supposed to represent a complete data entity such as a file, boot routine, OS itself for example. In order to retrieve any block of data, one only had to find a "datablock" and then concatanate the dataitems. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson Sent: Aug 12, 2004 7:50 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: archive file format exmaple On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:11, Steve Thatcher wrote: > here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. > [snip] That looks good. How's about moving things like author into the definitions section? I'm not sure that it belongs at the top level, but more in the section containing archive info (description, creation date etc.) I'd suggest making certain fields mandatory in what you've called the definitions section. People tend to be lazy, which means the temptation is there to create an archive and not bother to include much of the information, thinking that they'll know what it is a few years down the line. We've all be caught out by that one! (author, date, description are good candidates for mandatory fields; there'll be others too) I'm not so sure about having the actual data within the archive element; I'd rather have it afterwards. Data in your datamap section still points to chunks of data, using whatever scheme is understood by the storage/compression system used by the archive. But then the possibility is there for using an encoding method that doesn't mix with XML data if needs be. It also makes it easy to scan the archive section by eye as it's not mixed up with huge chunks of encoded media data. Actually, you could probably build collections of media archives (say for some common platform) all within the same file that way, without breaking the format - the data in the datamap section of the first archive section just points to other archives within the same file. That's kinda neat. eg. (simplifying a little for example purposes): ... as before ... ... as before ... ... .... .... .. that way anything following the archive section doesn't have to be XML data even, providing the definition within the datamap section for the encoding/compression scheme used by the archive can reach it. It might be zipped data, other archive definitions, whatever. cheers, Jules From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 07:46:46 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092311929.10829.60.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <411B7174.8315.EB40D4A@localhost> Message-ID: <411B82D6.25689.EF7F6BA@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 11:58 meinte Jules Richardson: > On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:32, Hans Franke wrote: > > Am 11 Aug 2004 15:41 meinte Cini, Richard: > > > >>XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > > > Yes, true, but I think of XML more as a Web technology requiring a complex > > > parsing engine. > > Naa, XML parsing is as simple as parsing any other tagged format. > > You just start at the beginning of the data stream and wait for > > a tag start ('<'), identify the tab, and process the following > > information (until the closing tag) as needed. That's all. For > > my own little XML data storage I did an XML reader and writer in > > Applesoft Basic in a few dozend lines. That's all what's needed. > > Shure, if you want to do super-dooper-crunch-every-thing readers, > > then it get's a bit more complex, but these are not realy needed > > for real world applications (aka the ones realy getting the data > > from a media or putting it back). > Absolutely. There's a few gotchas, like if the opening tag ends with /> > rather than > then you don't go scanning for a closing tag, and I seem > to recall having to do some strange things with character data fields > when parsing (plus there were probably caveats about escaping quotes in > attribute fields etc. - it's been a while) Now, /> is already a closeing tab, so if you find a / right at the end of an opening tag, you just go for the closeing function with an empty string as parameter - I found that way more convinient than the behaviour of some parsers that tell you that you've found an empty tag. Also adding CDATA secions is only necersary if you want to include as is data, which is not to be parsed at all. In general that is only needed if you include tags and/or entities within which are not supposed to be parsed. Necersary when doing binary or XML ad data. not realy necersary here, but again, it is easy to be found and can be handled with a few lines of code. > Certainly nothing too complex though; error handling of the XML format's > probably the bit that takes most of the effort (coping with malformed > data without crashing the parser or eating up memory etc.) Again, not realy an issue. As for a reader, it only needs to understand the structure as it is used. In such a real world context, error handling is easy - as easy as for any other format. If some identifyer comes along that does not fit at the current position: print an error message and stop execution. That's all needed. We don't have the need here to work like an HTML browser, which tries to display a somewhat readable page, no matter how destroyed the tags are, hopeing thet the user may find some sense within. We store and retrieve data. if the data is corrupted, we allert the user, and let him the situation (or some 'checkfile' utility - but that's already optional). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 12 08:27:48 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: RESCUED: pristine systems (DEC) In-Reply-To: <20040812074207.92345.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040812074207.92345.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200408120827.48209.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 12 August 2004 02:42, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > --- "Fred N. van Kempen" schrieb: > > - two what seem to be DECsystem 5500 systems > > Hi, Hi! I'm not Fred, but I'll answer anyways. > I don't know much about the DecSystems - do you have any > details? I hope we can arrange something. I'm guessing that they're MIPS based systems like the DECsystem 5000 and 3100. From the "Installation Guide" that comes up as 3rd or 4th in a google search (and which I have a mirrored copy on my web site: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/331aain1.pdf ), they look to be the size of a VAX 4000/200(-/700) and use s-box QBUS interface cards. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 08:30:07 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: <1092311446.10829.52.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20568369.1092309078565.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <411B8CFF.25713.F1FA7AD@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 11:50 meinte Jules Richardson: > On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:11, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. > > [snip] > > That looks good. Well, in fact it reassembles quite much something I postet some 3 years or so ago on classiccomp (I repost the original definition in a paralell message - that was the first draft, the actual is a bit more advanced by now, but I don't have it here at work). I have been working on that afterwards, but as usual, there where way moe other things to do, so it faded away a bit. Maybe I should get finaly my ass moving and post all the stuff on the Website that I prepared for it some years ago :) > How's about moving things like author into the definitions section? I think such stuff (i.e. basicly everything that is not necersarry for a narrow minded application which works only on one system like a reader/writer for Apple DOS 3.3 on an Apple II) should be optional. > I'm not so sure about having the actual data within the archive element; > I'd rather have it afterwards. I would prefer an aproach where both ways are possible, includeing a third wich allows to put the data even into another file. In the CCDD definition almost every element (except META) may be empty and have a HREF attribute pointing to it's content: A take header record could have it's data included: HDR2U020480204841 00 or just point to the data HDR2U020480204841 00 which of course may even be in another file: This linking structure was a side effekt from the main goal to define a XML format, which is not only able to represent the information of one storage media, but also a storage configuration. And for more complex configurations it might be useful to have configuration and media independently defined. Some may say that configuration is not needed, but then again, for some applications you have to have several media online in a certain way, otherwise it won't work (e.g. a programm disk in drive 1 and a data disk in drive 2). Furthermore it simplifies the design (and handling) of emulators, when one can mount a whole set of media in a specific configuration ar once. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 08:30:08 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: CCDD Definition Message-ID: <411B8D00.10442.F1FA839@localhost> The following is a XML definition I did some 3+ years ago during a discusion, here on classiccomp (back when there was one list *G*), as an example what a XML storage good for everything from punch card to CD could be. This example shows two CCDD structures, one showing an IBMish tape, the other a disk for a popular 8 Bit micro. (Back then nobody came up with the systems name :). Someone asked recently how to handle multiple XML within one file ... well, that's exactly the way it works :) Gruss H. CCDD stands for Classic Computer Device Data ------------------------- ]> Example for a tape mounted on Drive D0 on Channel 1. Standard type 1 channel T9G (6250bpi) First Tape in Device VOL1TAPE001 BS2000 TSOS 4 UVL1PRIVATE LABEL HDR1FILE1 00010001000100000102000102 000000BS2000 HDR2U020480204841 00 HDR3TSOS COMPLETE.FILE.NAME.OF.FILE1 0 NO REAL DATA INSIDE THIS BLOCK EOF1FILE1 00010001000100000102000102 000001BS2000 EOF2U020480204841 00 EOF33TSOS COMPLETE.FILE.NAME.OF.FILE1 0 This is another CCDD File for a FD of XXXXX running under yyyy. Floppy disk for xxxxxx 000000000000000000000000100E 04110F030000FE000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000007A0000000000000000 23010000231001000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000380010000 0000000000000000000000100F02C8C5 CCCCCFA0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0 A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A00001 -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 08:39:52 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards Message-ID: <20040812133952.90574.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> pics here: http://www.metabarn.com/forsale/pics/#KAY Top one has "81-914 REV E" on back. Bottom one has "81-1590 REV E" and "KV-01" on back. Thanks. rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tomhudson at execpc.com Thu Aug 12 08:55:06 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Photo In-Reply-To: <411B8D00.10442.F1FA839@localhost> References: <411B8D00.10442.F1FA839@localhost> Message-ID: <411B76BA.90608@execpc.com> For anyone interested, Terry Yager sent me a photo of the Tandy 10, taken out of a book, and I have posted it on my website at: http://klanky.com/relics/tandy10.jpg I wonder how many of these they sold... -Tom From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 08:57:55 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple Message-ID: <1102402.1092319076530.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I agree in all what Hans had to say except for how data would be stored. This is supposed to be an archive format which would in my view preclude getting data from the outside world. My only other concern as I have stated before was that data should not be an integral part of the media. If a device happens to be a tape drive, the data on the tape still separates into "file" type data and overhead data required for the tape physical format. Enbedding the "file" tyupe data inside of the physical format makes the data inaccessible without special knowledge. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke Sent: Aug 12, 2004 9:30 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: archive file format exmaple > I'm not so sure about having the actual data within the archive element; > I'd rather have it afterwards. I would prefer an aproach where both ways are possible, includeing a third wich allows to put the data even into another file. In the CCDD definition almost every element (except META) may be empty and have a HREF attribute pointing to it's content: A take header record could have it's data included: HDR2U020480204841 00 or just point to the data HDR2U020480204841 00 which of course may even be in another file: From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 09:04:16 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple References: <20568369.1092309078565.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: How about breaking up the sections a bit, like HTML sections? Putting card-catalog information up top in it's own section would speed indexing and searches. Like this: a place to put whatever relevant information is needed about the format or achive or your favorite poem or joke Pete Smith ROM Dumper V4.12 02004-02-02 Omega Race Midway Commodore VIC-20 ROM Game Cartridge .... ....etc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Thatcher" To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:11 AM Subject: archive file format exmaple > here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. > > try: > > > > a place to put whatever relevant information is needed about the format or achive > or your favorite poem or joke > > Tandy Model 100 > Ian Blindly > > 5.25" floppy > > MFM? RLL? something ... > 35 > 1 > 18 > 8 > > > > > dataitemid="SB1" /> > dataitemid="SB1"/> > /> > /> > ... > > > > /> > dataitemid="SB1"/> > > /> > > > > > > 456789ABCDEF... > 1234567890A... > 890ABCDEF01245... > 456789ABCDEF... > > > > 456789ABCDEF... > 1234567890A... > 890ABCDEF01245... > 456789ABCDEF... > > > > 456789ABCDEF... > 1234567890A... > 890ABCDEF01245... > 456789ABCDEF... > > > > > please don't get hung up on names, etc, The basic structure is what I have been > talking about. A utility can go into the archive file, find a , > know what it is and extract it without having to know anything about the OS. Another > utility can read the media, datamap, and datablocks to re-create tracks in memory > to then write out to disk. There was earlier talk about years from now being able > to still re-create disks. I think that is a fine ambition, but that still requires > all the hardware and intimate OS knowledge to still be around. My idea was to at > least be able to extract the data without having to have ANY knowledge of the OS. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher > > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 09:06:02 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Charset/CCDD (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard) In-Reply-To: References: <20040811214341.02572109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <411B956A.18107.F40887C@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 17:41 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > > XML is more a more "current" technology but I was trying to keep with the > > > > platform neutrality by sticking to text-only and not assuming the use of any > > > > other technology like XML. > > > XML is platform neutral because it's basically ASCII, right? > > Nope. XML files can be represented in multiple character sets, possibly > > including (but certainly not limited to): > > > Best decide this now. > Ok, I choose US-ASCII. This will be up for debate I'm sure, but surely > US-ASCII is the most widely deployed character set in the world currently? Well, yes and no. Shure, a lot of the most common codes are to some extend US-ASCII compatible, but different, thus even the use of a stric 7 Bit ASCII doesn't save us from complications. But beside that, it's not the point. Especialy when allowing the inclusion of binary data, and/or when switching between systems, ASCII can become incompatible. Further more, such a definition (US-ASCII only) would make it quite hard to use the format in a mainframe environment, wher EBCDIC is still the language of choice. Already on a PET we have differences in the 7 Bit encodeing. Not to mention the even bigger problems to handle these files on real old systems. Rather then restricting the encodeing of the XML file to a specific charset, we need to restrict the USAGE within the standard to certain characters, regardless of the encodeing. I suggest to restrict the caracters used in tags, attribute names and attributes to 'A-Z' (uppercase), '0-9' and '-'. these are to be found in all character sets I've seen up to date, and thus able to tunnel whatever needed. For various data encodeing schemes additional characters may be needed. By restricting our definition to this, we become independant from the charset (as long as it includes our characters) and so transparent to all code conversions that may happen on the way between machines. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 09:06:02 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <11703665.1092260872754.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <411B956A.21190.F4088DA@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 14:47 meinte Steve Thatcher: > I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation > of media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do > that and have its only function be to maintain a physical data > format. My added idea is that the data and the formatting be > separated so that a simple utility on a non-target platform could > extract data from the image file. Well, physical format and data is not always seperable. In some circumstances the physical format is part of the onformation an application needs, and differs form media to media (e.g. copy protection schemes) > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract > the data then any emulator must understand the OS file > structure in order to retrieve any internal file representation. > My idea would make the file re-creation simple in that the xml > image file would be parsed for the actual file data that an > emulator would need. This makes the emulator easier. But what if the emulator needs the physical format information? > To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end > of this message, the emulator must know the actual disk format > that is used on the target system (the one the image file was > made for). I have seen cp/m systems where the actual physical > sectors were sequential on disk and the OS file sector was > actually virtual to increase speed. Not my idea of the way to > do it. It is much easier to make the physical sectors slewed > so that a physical sector is a file sector. These are the types > of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator must totally > understand each and every file system for a cp/m version for > example. At least within a CP/M system it usualy doesn't matter at all how the files are stored on a disk. Except for some odd apps who tried to implement system specific copy protection schemes, all and every CP/M app accesses files just via BDOS which already hides the real disk strukture. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 09:10:33 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple Message-ID: <5096349.1092319833477.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> that would be fine. Your is what was all about though i.e. rom definition etc. The archive really doesn't have a type, it does however contain media information and then the data to be accessed or put onto the defined media. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Jason McBrien Sent: Aug 12, 2004 10:04 AM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: archive file format exmaple How about breaking up the sections a bit, like HTML sections? Putting card-catalog information up top in it's own section would speed indexing and searches. Like this: a place to put whatever relevant information is needed about the format or achive or your favorite poem or joke Pete Smith ROM Dumper V4.12 02004-02-02 Omega Race Midway Commodore VIC-20 ROM Game Cartridge .... ....etc From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 09:16:34 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <24046020.1092320194890.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> comments embedded below... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke Sent: Aug 12, 2004 10:06 AM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Am 11 Aug 2004 14:47 meinte Steve Thatcher: > I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation > of media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do > that and have its only function be to maintain a physical data > format. My added idea is that the data and the formatting be > separated so that a simple utility on a non-target platform could > extract data from the image file. Well, physical format and data is not always seperable. In some circumstances the physical format is part of the onformation an application needs, and differs form media to media (e.g. copy protection schemes) *** the separated data that I am talking about is what would be accessed through normal OS channels. Copy protection schemes, special destroyed sectors, etc are not accessible through the OS. > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract > the data then any emulator must understand the OS file > structure in order to retrieve any internal file representation. > My idea would make the file re-creation simple in that the xml > image file would be parsed for the actual file data that an > emulator would need. This makes the emulator easier. But what if the emulator needs the physical format information? *** I have not proposed that the physical format information be excluded... > To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end > of this message, the emulator must know the actual disk format > that is used on the target system (the one the image file was > made for). I have seen cp/m systems where the actual physical > sectors were sequential on disk and the OS file sector was > actually virtual to increase speed. Not my idea of the way to > do it. It is much easier to make the physical sectors slewed > so that a physical sector is a file sector. These are the types > of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator must totally > understand each and every file system for a cp/m version for > example. At least within a CP/M system it usualy doesn't matter at all how the files are stored on a disk. Except for some odd apps who tried to implement system specific copy protection schemes, all and every CP/M app accesses files just via BDOS which already hides the real disk strukture. *** talk to other people here and one of their arguements for keeping things all together was being able to access track and sector directly. As for BDOS, that is fine, but keep in mind that BDOS was customized for nearly every cp/m platform From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 09:33:24 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411A9FDA.6050003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <411B9BD4.23164.F5994C7@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 16:38 meinte ben franchuk: > McFadden, Mike wrote: > > I'll be friar Mike hunched over a lectern transcribing data with an ion > > writer. > Give me holographic media! > BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? Just seen a feature about that on public TV. It seams like they are comeing along with it. There's a team at the University of Stuttgart which recently developed a way forfine controll of the laser light to address the storage without huge high precicion mirror systems. I couldn't find a web reference, but according to the report tey are now able to dynamicly controll the beam and thus can read the desired page even if the cube has moved or is in a less than perfect fitting. Also you no longer need an optical bank and the beam length of more than a meter, the new system can be already fitted in a case the size of a classic 5.25 drive (full height) with an exchangeable holographic media of 1cm^3 size and about a Terra Byte of storage capacity. Main drawback is still the cost for the holographic media. Targetet date for real world applications is arround 2008. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 09:33:24 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: <1102402.1092319076530.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <411B9BD4.7766.F599459@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 0:00 meinte Steve Thatcher: > I agree in all what Hans had to say except for how > data would be stored. This is supposed to be an archive > format which would in my view preclude getting data from > the outside world. Well, a clear yes her ... and a no :) Of course an achive of a media or a set of media has to be cosistent and one pice - still it might be usefull to split it up into several files (as someone already suggestes: having format in one file and data in another, which can even be a data file in Inel-Hex or whatever) which then again are supposed to be handled together - e.g. in a zip archive. After all, we're not reinventing the archiver itself. > My only other concern as I have stated before was that > data should not be an integral part of the media. If a > device happens to be a tape drive, the data on the tape > still separates into "file" type data and overhead data > required for the tape physical format. > Enbedding the "file" tyupe data inside of the physical > format makes the data inaccessible without special knowledge. Thanks for using the tape as example. Well, take a look at the other mail... where would you put the header blocks ? they are both, structure and data, since they where accessable by the applications - If I open a tape file, I can go and read only the data, but I may also access the headers. Even more (at least on real computers *G*), a programm can write it's own headers - there are even special user headers defined. That was also one of the functions wicht made the PET special. with a little additional programming, you could write application specific header blocks, that where properly handled by the 'OS' (read ignored :). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Aug 12 09:33:02 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:08 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AE2@mail10.congressfinancial.com> How would one actually go about re-generating an original media from the metafile? Do we contemplate connecting some future computer's I/O port to a 34-pin ribbon cable connected to a 1980's vintage floppy drive? At some point in this process we're going to have to make some detailed assumptions on how the metadata will be used 50 or 100 years from now. Also, the metafile not only has to include information about the "user" data areas of the disk but also the system areas (the stuff written to the media by the controller -- address marks, gaps, sync bits, etc.). This would require us to not only compile the general media format data but also data on the controller used to generate the media (chip specs, data gleaned from examining the "format" programs used, etc.). The reason why I ask is that somehow we're going to have to test the archival/restoration process to see that it works. It's like making tape backups but never testing them with a restore. This might be obvious, but I've been accused of stating that before :-) Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Steve Thatcher Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard comments embedded below... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke Sent: Aug 12, 2004 10:06 AM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Am 11 Aug 2004 14:47 meinte Steve Thatcher: > I realize that the idea is to create a format to make re-creation > of media possible for a variety of platforms. We can certainly do > that and have its only function be to maintain a physical data > format. My added idea is that the data and the formatting be > separated so that a simple utility on a non-target platform could > extract data from the image file. Well, physical format and data is not always seperable. In some circumstances the physical format is part of the onformation an application needs, and differs form media to media (e.g. copy protection schemes) *** the separated data that I am talking about is what would be accessed through normal OS channels. Copy protection schemes, special destroyed sectors, etc are not accessible through the OS. > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract > the data then any emulator must understand the OS file > structure in order to retrieve any internal file representation. > My idea would make the file re-creation simple in that the xml > image file would be parsed for the actual file data that an > emulator would need. This makes the emulator easier. But what if the emulator needs the physical format information? *** I have not proposed that the physical format information be excluded... > To retrieve a file from the physical layout that it at the end > of this message, the emulator must know the actual disk format > that is used on the target system (the one the image file was > made for). I have seen cp/m systems where the actual physical > sectors were sequential on disk and the OS file sector was > actually virtual to increase speed. Not my idea of the way to > do it. It is much easier to make the physical sectors slewed > so that a physical sector is a file sector. These are the types > of issues you will have to overcome if an emulator must totally > understand each and every file system for a cp/m version for > example. At least within a CP/M system it usualy doesn't matter at all how the files are stored on a disk. Except for some odd apps who tried to implement system specific copy protection schemes, all and every CP/M app accesses files just via BDOS which already hides the real disk strukture. *** talk to other people here and one of their arguements for keeping things all together was being able to access track and sector directly. As for BDOS, that is fine, but keep in mind that BDOS was customized for nearly every cp/m platform From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Aug 12 10:07:10 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Welcome back Hans F! Message-ID: Good to see you back on the List - from your cyber-exile.. Cheers John From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 10:22:52 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AE2@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <411BA76C.17883.F86E127@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 10:33 meinte Cini, Richard: > How would one actually go about re-generating an original media from > the metafile? Do we contemplate connecting some future computer's I/O port > to a 34-pin ribbon cable connected to a 1980's vintage floppy drive? At some > point in this process we're going to have to make some detailed assumptions > on how the metadata will be used 50 or 100 years from now. > Also, the metafile not only has to include information about the > "user" data areas of the disk but also the system areas (the stuff written > to the media by the controller -- address marks, gaps, sync bits, etc.). > This would require us to not only compile the general media format > data but also data on the controller used to generate the media (chip specs, > data gleaned from examining the "format" programs used, etc.). > The reason why I ask is that somehow we're going to have to test the > archival/restoration process to see that it works. It's like making tape > backups but never testing them with a restore. > This might be obvious, but I've been accused of stating that before > :-) *G* Well, Rich, that'S part of the tool-chain to be used. As I see it, the data format is nothing else, than the lingua franca to connect various tools . After all, a format won't do any work, programms do. In my little definiton there are 3 kind of programms: - Readers A programm that reads the data from the original media and generate a XML representation according to the spec (to be stored somewhere, transferred, whatever, eventualy in a modern environment) - (Meta-)Handlers A programm that archives, cataloges, manages or does whatever with the XML representation. - Writers A programm that gets the XML representation as input and writes it out to the original media. Typicaly readers and writers would be small programms running in the original environment. Also specific for reader and writers is that these programms must have an understanding of the media format they are operate on. A programm that writes the data gathered from the XML representation into a file format understood by an emulator would also fit the writer category. Programm that manipulates the XML repraesentation and or the data within (handers) are a wide variety and include tools like - converting various data formats (e.g. IntelHex <-> Motorola format) - extract data from the representation for useage with other tools - e.g. extract a ROM image to plain IntelHex so it can be downloaded to a PROMer. Or maybe a tool that pulls a media out of a configuration - restructure the XML repraesentation- e.g. if the media is split up into several files or made up as linked sections and a certain (simple) writer is only able to handle a single file with a linear repraesentation, such a tool would include all the external references into one file, and all data directly into the blocks where they occure. As for the records, I have not problem if each of these programms will be a separate class and we end up with a hundret class names :). in fact, emulators who directly read the XML representation are already a hard case to fit in - personaly I see them as Handlers, since the don't _write_ the XML representation, but rather interprete and handle the XML repraesentation. The important part about XML is this tool chain idea. Let's take just the (P)ROM example. Except for the reader, which is specific to a certain computer modell, all other tools can be used to produce a new PROM for any machine, no matter what PROM is to be made. Usualy, if I do a lecture about such things someone comes up with the quite clever idea that this van be done with any format as long as it'S the one used by all tools, and he's right. There is principly no difference between some clever made up XML tags wich may have meaning to a geek, and let's say if we do a TIFF like structure where we go #and calculate all Friday 13th relative to Jan 1st 1900 and use that number as ID. Well, except for the little fuzzy advantage that we don't have to fiddle around with all the meta structure, since it's already done in the XML def, it's open for extensions, and most important, if using a proprietary standard, chances that we can use some third party tool, not sepcialy made to cover our format are ZERO, while when using XML they ate greater than zero. THat's the difference... And if it's only a little commandline tool for XPATH expressions, which already works as query tool for our archive. A simple line as in xpt file:*/*@FORMAT[T6250] lists all files in the current directory that have somewhere a FORMAT tag of T6250 (a tape format) Realy, I love XML (After I got rid of some of the unnecersarry free floating bells and whistles :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 10:25:13 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Welcome back Hans F! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <411BA7F9.5690.F890724@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 11:07 meinte John Lawson: > Good to see you back on the List - from your cyber-exile.. Well, I just resubscribed some days, and the first that comes up is one of my all time favourite subjects - of course beside hand guns, cars and ... wait, what was the other thing? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 12 10:37:10 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Welcome back Hans F! References: <411BA7F9.5690.F890724@localhost> Message-ID: <411B8EA6.26A4C9F9@rain.org> Good grief, is this the person that did a disappearing act a while ago :)? Welcome back Hans!!! Hans Franke wrote: > > Am 12 Aug 2004 11:07 meinte John Lawson: > > Good to see you back on the List - from your cyber-exile.. > > Well, I just resubscribed some days, and the first that comes > up is one of my all time favourite subjects - of course beside > hand guns, cars and ... wait, what was the other thing? > > Gruss > H. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 12 10:54:30 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Welcome back Hans F! In-Reply-To: <411B8EA6.26A4C9F9@rain.org> Message-ID: <411BAED6.26850.FA3D523@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 8:37 meinte Marvin Johnston: > Good grief, is this the person that did a disappearing act a while ago > :)? Welcome back Hans!!! Hi Marvin!!! Well, it was more of a forced leave. Somehow the classiccomp server didn't like me. I don't know, I'm sitting here in an usualy quite good working infrastructure (together with about a 100k other siemens employees), I get my daily mail, I have several lists which work great, just Classiccmp belives thet I'm unreachable. Anyway, I managed to live half a year without the list, and belive me, after the initial few days where I was excited about the low volume in my inbox, I got wthdrawl symptoms ... I was already reading SPAM mails as a substitute! Now it was time to get over it and admit that I'm addicted. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Aug 12 11:27:51 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards In-Reply-To: <20040812133952.90574.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040812133952.90574.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In message <20040812133952.90574.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> Rich Bramante wrote: > pics here: > > http://www.metabarn.com/forsale/pics/#KAY > > Top one has "81-914 REV E" on back. > Bottom one has "81-1590 REV E" and "KV-01" on back. Judging by the components on the boards, I guess the top board with the edge connector slots is a passive backplane of some make or description. The board on the bottom with the Intel D80286 CPU looks like a PC-on-a-card. Have you tried looking up the FCC IDs at ? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Street Fighter II. Four disk game of ultimate boredom. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 12 11:39:02 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Welcome back Hans F! In-Reply-To: <411BAED6.26850.FA3D523@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 12, 2004 05:54:30 PM Message-ID: <200408121639.i7CGd2Fg013740@onyx.spiritone.com> > Anyway, I managed to live half a year without the list, and > belive me, after the initial few days where I was excited about > the low volume in my inbox, I got wthdrawl symptoms ... I know the excitement feeling... From last Saturday at about noon, till Wednesday about noon I didn't get any CLASSICCMP messages for some reason (then they all turned up at once). I was shocked by what it did to the amount of email that I get, even with two other fairly high volume mail lists that I'm on. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 11:39:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <10946538.1092262943894.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I am not assuming anything about the data. The usual use is to have > files... in the case of a paper tape emulator system used for CNC, the > disk structure may not resemble a normal file structure. It still > contains one or more blocks of data. you can apply whatever name to that > you want to. The boot sector on a cp/m 8" disk doesn't have a name, but > it is a block of data that is separate from everything else. Personally, > I would want to be able to "read" the boot sector and potentially even > write it back to an image file. It really doesn't make a difference > whether you access track 0 and sector 1 or a data block inside the image > file that contains the boot code. I see what you're saying now. I suppose another potential format that can be incorporated into the spec is a file-based format, where blocks or "files" are represented inside the archive. I can see this being useful for two purposes: 1) Imaging the filesystem from a medium (as opposed to the medium itself) 2) Incorporating code along the lines of what Dwight has been suggesting that knows how to do special processing of the image it is contained in. The code can be extracted and poked into memory using a very simple algorithm that possibly can be described in comments in the image file. I did suggest that the spec be able to image filesystems in a previous message. I think this comes close enough to what you are describing. It can be modified to also be able to indicate "blocks of data". These blocks could be given an identifier--a name, number, whatever; it doesn't matter, as long as it's an ASCII-representable string--and then extracted from the image file as needed. Does this satisfy you, Steve? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 12 12:05:54 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! Message-ID: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same as LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... Adaptec 2940? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 12 12:07:11 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! Message-ID: <002701c4808e$ced69fe0$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same as LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... Adaptec 2940? Jay From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 12 12:18:40 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> Message-ID: <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) > > I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same as LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... Adaptec 2940? Nope. I forget how Adaptec's HVD line is numbered, but LVD, wide, or UW will NOT work with HVD devices, and will likely cause Magic Smoke to escape. And, of course, HVD adapters for PC have gotten Very Damned Expensive. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 12 12:23:11 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <002701c4808e$ced69fe0$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> from "Jay West" at Aug 12, 2004 12:07:11 PM Message-ID: <200408121723.i7CHNCwe015688@onyx.spiritone.com> > Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... > just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) > > I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC > technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same as > LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled > "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... > Adaptec 2940? Sweet! No, HVD is not the same a LVD, and you'll needi either a SE-to-LVD converter box (I know Paralan made them, as that is what we used to use), or a HVD SCSI card. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 12:25:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <11985891.1092264873719.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > what is wrong with making things easier? If a small amount of effort > could be put out to make the image file have a more useful purpose then > to ONLY be able to create media, why not? Your view seems to be to make > all the emulators tyhat are currently available not work anymore because > now they have to be modified to access an image file. My idea is to not Steve, All emulators for 8-bit machines today that I'm aware of use disk images. Emulators like SIMH can read in individual files by, for instance, turning the file into a virtual paper tape reader. Your point, again, is taken, but so is Dwight's. I think it depends on what emulators you spend most of your time playing with which defines your outlook on this. One problem I did think of after I sent my last message concerning this is that if you do start including filesystems, people (probably emulator writers in particular) will start to wonder why you didn't store the data in binary. "Why," they ask, "do I have to convert the data from ASCII when the file is fully capable of holding binary data?" Then you might get some joker making unauthorized extensions to the spec with binary data fields. Perhaps I'm getting carried away here, but I do see this as potentially problematic. > If you thought of an emulator is to BE the machine in absolutely all > respects then yes who ever is writing it needs to understand the file > structure intimately and we need to add even more to the specification > to allow writing to an image file... Isn't the specification itself a "how to" for writing an image file? Also, the image file we are discussing is *NOT*, again, intended to serve the emulators. Emulator usage is a SECONDARY concern. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Aug 12 12:28:35 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040812132816.03413da8@192.168.0.1> At 01:18 PM 8/12/2004, you wrote: > And, of course, HVD adapters for PC have gotten Very Damned Expensive. Always wondered what VDE meant. :-) Ed From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Aug 12 12:28:40 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... > just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) Wow - I paid $400 for mine, and was happy to get it! > > I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC > technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same > as LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled > "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... > Adaptec 2940? Mine runs with the Adaptec 14- mumblemumble on this laptop with a copy of Novastore - reads and writes tapes just fine, but I have it mainly connected to the SCSI port on my VaxStation 3100 - and it mounts, reads, and writes just fine under VMS 7.1. Mine has a sticky hub-lock solenoid - at the beginning of a session I have to lift up the deck and give it a tweak - then it's good for the rest of the time. I've lubed it and taken it apart (and the damn hub, too!) and put it all back - same thing - so I just do the workaround and all is well. Let me know if I can help out with this - IIRC, I have the service and operator's manual on .pdf somewhere... Cheers John From thompson at new.rr.com Thu Aug 12 12:37:19 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > And, of course, HVD adapters for PC have gotten Very Damned Expensive. > > BusLogic BT-958D is an older HVD PCI card, relatively cheap and works well with linux. I would not recommend any Qlogic based cards with linux as the drivers SUCK. Adaptecs seem good. There don't seem to be any 958D's on Ebay at the moment... From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 12:56:29 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408121756.KAA02248@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jules Here is what I've found. It is a disk drive emulator. Unless a PC is DMA driven, bit banging a floppy is not practical. There are just too many other things that the PC is doing on the side. Having a separate dedicated uP is the best way. That device can then either communicate with the host through serial or parallel. Dwight Web pointer: http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/ >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 00:13, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >From: "Fred Cisin" >> > >> >truly demented idea: >> >build a hardware device that can read the image file, connects >> >via 34 or 50 pin cable to an FDC, and that produces pulses >> >that look like disk data to the FDC. >> > >> Hi >> It has already been done. I can look up the web page if you like. >> Dwight > >yes, please :-) > >I remember asking about this a while back, specifically wondering if a >PC parallel port was fast enough to drive it (not without buffering at >some sort of level, it seemed) > >I wouldn't mind seeing what someone else has come up with. > >cheers > >Jules > > From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 13:10:01 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040812181001.26590.qmail@web21521.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Pemberton wrote: > Have you tried looking up the FCC IDs at > http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/? Yup, unfortunately the most I could extract was this was a "Part 15 Class B Computing Device Peripheral". Right! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 12 13:15:33 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Jay West wrote: > > Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 > (800/1600/3200/6250)... just pulled from working > service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) > > > > I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept > up with PC technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older > Differential the same as LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 > pin connector labeled "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI > card I can use with this... Adaptec 2940? > > Nope. I forget how Adaptec's HVD line is numbered, but LVD, wide, or > UW will NOT work with HVD devices, and will likely cause Magic Smoke to > escape. > > And, of course, HVD adapters for PC have gotten Very Damned Expensive. I happen to have, available for trade, a known good Rancho Technology wide SE<->HVD converter (and a couple of 5Gig wide HVD hard drives). If the device is not wide (and it looks like it is not), you can use a wide to narrow converter on each side and just ignore the high bits. Let me know if you want it, Bill From thompson at new.rr.com Thu Aug 12 13:22:59 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: RESCUED: pristine systems (DEC) In-Reply-To: <200408120827.48209.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20040812074207.92345.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> <200408120827.48209.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 12 August 2004 02:42, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > > --- "Fred N. van Kempen" schrieb: > > > - two what seem to be DECsystem 5500 systems > > > I'm guessing that they're MIPS based systems like the DECsystem 5000 and > 3100. From the "Installation Guide" that comes up as 3rd or 4th in a > google search (and which I have a mirrored copy on my web site: > http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/331aain1.pdf ), they > look to be the size of a VAX 4000/200(-/700) and use s-box QBUS > interface cards. > The 5400 and 5500 were both QBUS based MIPS systems which ran Ultrix. They had a VAX coprocessor for console and field service diagnostics. The 5400 has DSSI or SDI storage by default. The 5500 was faster and has (I believe, by default) SCSI storage. They use standard QBUS components and memory boards for similar VAX machines. Nice if you don't mind Ultrix. I don't believe there is a functioning NetBSD for either. Paul From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 13:24:34 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy@earthlink.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <318980-220048412182434540@M2W084.mail2web.com> you have to think beyond emulators and think of just getting the data. You started this whole thing out by asking for ideas and concepts to make sure that disks could be made in years to come. I challenge you to expand the horizon and suggest that what you need is a way to get the data out easily and make disks. Personally, I have zero use for a image file format that can only be used to make disks and makes getting data out of it a pain in the backside. Maybe in years, I will need to make a floppy disk, but I believe that getting the data out (files or whatever you choose to call them) is more important and will be that way in the future also. Where small things can get lost, having a "standard" image file format that let's me do both makes more sense to me. As for emulators, Microfast by Simeon Cran uses an import from ms-dos and the emulator runs great. The original BabyBlue card wrapped the cp/m program in a ms-dos wrapper and then you didn't even have to think twice about running a compiler, linker, etc. Would it do direct disk access? No, but that is what the original platforms are for. Most programs went through the OS for disk access because they were file oriented. I can't recall how Fred arranged his emulator, but I have a copy of that to. Your arguement about emulator programmers wondering "why" about binary is a non-issue. The spec defines ascii and that is the way data is represented. They will probably more appreciate the the standard then complaining about such things. If they do, then they certainly don't need to write anything. A user could easily write the utility or someone who is part of the standards group will make software templates and simple utilities available. Writing the utilities would be something that I wouldn't mind helping with for example. The image file that you are discussing is only good as a "how to" to write arbitrary data to arbitrary media. It is only good for creating a final media image because the format being contemplated (mixing data into the physical spec) will preclude the file from standing on its own. I was proposing identifying data blocks as files if that is what they were. The data blocks would have been sequential and trivial to retrieve. That is hardly what I would call defining a file system as part of the image file. best regards, Steve Thatcher Original Message: ----------------- From: Vintage Computer Festival vcf@siconic.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:25:20 -0700 (PDT) To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > what is wrong with making things easier? If a small amount of effort > could be put out to make the image file have a more useful purpose then > to ONLY be able to create media, why not? Your view seems to be to make > all the emulators tyhat are currently available not work anymore because > now they have to be modified to access an image file. My idea is to not Steve, All emulators for 8-bit machines today that I'm aware of use disk images. Emulators like SIMH can read in individual files by, for instance, turning the file into a virtual paper tape reader. Your point, again, is taken, but so is Dwight's. I think it depends on what emulators you spend most of your time playing with which defines your outlook on this. One problem I did think of after I sent my last message concerning this is that if you do start including filesystems, people (probably emulator writers in particular) will start to wonder why you didn't store the data in binary. "Why," they ask, "do I have to convert the data from ASCII when the file is fully capable of holding binary data?" Then you might get some joker making unauthorized extensions to the spec with binary data fields. Perhaps I'm getting carried away here, but I do see this as potentially problematic. > If you thought of an emulator is to BE the machine in absolutely all > respects then yes who ever is writing it needs to understand the file > structure intimately and we need to add even more to the specification > to allow writing to an image file... Isn't the specification itself a "how to" for writing an image file? Also, the image file we are discussing is *NOT*, again, intended to serve the emulators. Emulator usage is a SECONDARY concern. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 13:35:40 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy@earthlink.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <16790-220048412183540347@M2W069.mail2web.com> the emails I received seem to be out of order... I believe what you are saying does satisfy the requirement that I have been proposing. There are different levels of physical to data mapping. I can see target platform code running that creates an image file and might actually send the XML directly out a serial port in zmodem for example. It could send it out as files or strictly embedded data. My point has been to make the file blocks available if the target has them just so the data can be extracted easily. best regards, Steve Original Message: ----------------- From: Vintage Computer Festival vcf@siconic.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT) To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I am not assuming anything about the data. The usual use is to have > files... in the case of a paper tape emulator system used for CNC, the > disk structure may not resemble a normal file structure. It still > contains one or more blocks of data. you can apply whatever name to that > you want to. The boot sector on a cp/m 8" disk doesn't have a name, but > it is a block of data that is separate from everything else. Personally, > I would want to be able to "read" the boot sector and potentially even > write it back to an image file. It really doesn't make a difference > whether you access track 0 and sector 1 or a data block inside the image > file that contains the boot code. I see what you're saying now. I suppose another potential format that can be incorporated into the spec is a file-based format, where blocks or "files" are represented inside the archive. I can see this being useful for two purposes: 1) Imaging the filesystem from a medium (as opposed to the medium itself) 2) Incorporating code along the lines of what Dwight has been suggesting that knows how to do special processing of the image it is contained in. The code can be extracted and poked into memory using a very simple algorithm that possibly can be described in comments in the image file. I did suggest that the spec be able to image filesystems in a previous message. I think this comes close enough to what you are describing. It can be modified to also be able to indicate "blocks of data". These blocks could be given an identifier--a name, number, whatever; it doesn't matter, as long as it's an ASCII-representable string--and then extracted from the image file as needed. Does this satisfy you, Steve? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 13:40:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408121840.LAA02282@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Roger Merchberger" > >Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >>On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: >> >> > If we create a physical description only and do not abstract the data >> > then any emulator must understand the OS file structure in order to >> > retrieve any internal file representation. > >I don't wanna sound like a doofus, but: > >So? > >> My idea would make the file >> > re-creation simple in that the xml image file would be parsed for the >> > actual file data that an emulator would need. This makes the emulator >> > easier. >> >>You're describing an imagefile that contains a filesystem image, rather >>than, say, a disk image. This can be accomodated in the spec, but it's a >>different type of image than what we've been discussing. > >It could be accommodated, but why should it when it would be easier for >someone to build a converter into an emulator image file? > >This spec (as far as I understand it) is going to be read-only anyway - >this is for archiving after all. What happens when the emulator tries to >rewrite the disk image (say, from saving a modified file)? What will happen >to the original archive? Hi I don't see this as being an issue. Once one knew how to decode the information for such applications that wanted to extract the data, one could import information into the image. It would of course require some knowledge of the data structures used by that system. It would have to know how to resolve things like logical interleaving and allocating space by the allocation methods. > >>It's up to emulator writers to read the spec and adapt to it. > >Bam. That hit the thumbnail right on the head. ;-) > >> We'll make >>the spec as flexible as possible, but first and foremost, the spec is >>intended to archive images of data media, and not to serve as a universal >>emulator image format (though it should be able to be used as such). > >I'd like to add that IMHO it should be "read-only" so the emulator doesn't >destroy the archive when it rewrites certain sectors and/or files. I don't see this as an issue. Once one has the archive file in hand, using it as a method to import external data is surely a valid application. The concept of read-only is just an OS flag that can be overwritten. Surely, someone doing this would rename the file or otherwise indicate that it has change. There is nothing anyone can do to restrict such actions. Why specify something that can not be enforced? We can recommend action. We can recommend that there be a field that indicated any change in the data of an archive and if that change is an overwrite of data or an enhancement of the data. Dwight > >At least that's my take on the deal... >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 13:44:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411AA1BB.2090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM and call > > it done? What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video, > > which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these > > corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive > > storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?) > > > The Voyager disc was a record. - analog. > I say stick to 8 bit bytes for media - transfer programs can handle that. > Why not just record the real bit data and timing data, media is cheap. If you folks are discussing analog audio storage then it's not part of this spec. Sorry. If you're discussing analog data storage then it is. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 14:09:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408121909.MAA02294@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "melamy@earthlink.net" > ---snip--- > >The image file that you are discussing is only good as a "how to" to write >arbitrary data to arbitrary media. It is only good for creating a final >media image because the format being contemplated (mixing data into the >physical spec) will preclude the file from standing on its own. No, that is not true. The description of the physical data in the archive should be sufficient to recover the system side data. I can state this because the system side data is just a subset of the physical data. I recommend that the archive should include enough information to translate from the physical to the system but for archiving purposes, that is not absolutely necessary. It is not that hard to describe as part of the header what FM looks like. Still, if we restrict all archived information to include this, some unknown formats may not be archived because the person with the data doesn't know that format. It is better to capture the data first. It may also be that the only way that person has to capture the data is the output of a controller chip. The archiving should allow this as well ( more in the format the Steve would like it all to be in ). This file could later be combined with the more physical information when that was available, just as a archive file that originally had only physical information could be appended with the data as seen by the system. What this means is that some of the archived files may not be directly useable by Steve and his tools without some more in depth knowledge about the encoding use. It doesn't make it impossible to use, just difficult. Dwight >I was >proposing identifying data blocks as files if that is what they were. The >data blocks would have been sequential and trivial to retrieve. That is >hardly what I would call defining a file system as part of the image file. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 14:18:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811153445.F22401@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > And for regeneration, there is such a thing as TOO MUCH > data. If you try to replicate a disk, where every single > bit/flux transition is specified, it is not feasable. > There is a reason for "GAP" fields! If you try to > replicate the disk, you will not be able to recreate > some of the mangled bytes in the write splice fields. > Unless you are trying to replicate sopy-protection, > you would be WAY better off storing JUST the data, > and the specs of the format, and recreating the format > instead of trying to replicate it! I totally agree with this. However, there are cases where the only practical method for imaging a disk will be at a level below what I refer to as "logical" format, meaning what the sector data translates to (i.e. if a sector stores 256 bytes, the "logical" data is the actual 256 bytes). Case 1: A disk with copy protection so tortuous that the only way to image it is at the bit level. Case 2: One of the copy protections that was employed on the Apple ][ was an 18 sector format that Roland Gustafson invented. He managed to optimize the storing of bytes on a track and managed to squeeze 18 sectors worth of 256-byte sectors on a single track (where normally 16 would reside). So the question is, how do you image this? I would image it at what I'm now referring to as the "raw" level. Since the Apple ][ uses GCR, and since with GCR you can't have more than two zero bits in a row, the actual bytes written to disk are encoded into what's called 6&2 encoding: 6 bits of an 8-bit byte are used to look up an 8-bit byte in a table containing bytes that have no more than 2 consecutive zero bits; the other 2 bits are combined with 2-bit sets from two other bytes and used to look up a valid 8-bit value. There's also another encoding called 4&4 (one byte is stored as two valid bytes, with all the odd bits being a 1 to ensure against two consecutive zeroes) and the Commodore 64 used 5&4. So all valid bytes on a GCR track will always have their two highest bits set. This is what I called "raw". So for an 18-sector disk, which is not a defined Apple ][ disk format, I'd image it in raw format. Raw format would have to entail the capability of being able to specify sync bytes, which are 10 bit bytes: eight 1's and two 0's. With something like 4 sync bytes in a row, you're always guaranteed that the read head will be in sync with the proper byte boundaries. So there is a need for bit, "raw", and "logical" image types. Going further up the logical chain, we have "filesystem" image types (an entire filesystem is imaged, i.e. we are above tracks and sectors) and then file images. > Instead, a 360K disk should have 360K of data, whether > as 360K of binary bytes, or as 720K+ of ASCII hex dump, > PLUS just the information that it is 9 512 byte sectors > per track. Any exceptions to "standard" formatting > could be documented in the header, OR within the data > as necessary. This can certainly be included in the spec and is a good idea. There's no point in filling up an image file with useless tags if a disk has a standard geometry that can be easily described like this. > But OTHER people, such as the CAPS project feel a need to > replicate every flux transition. With certain disks (i.e. copy protection) I share the feeling of this need, and they explain that. If they are doing it for every disk, regardless of whether it is copy protected, then that's overkill. However, the spec will allow one to create an image of whatever type they deem necessary. We can make recommendations with white papers, but people will do what they want. > Therefore, since this is an extensible spec, > I propose that it have a multi-layer structure: > (I realize that this will grievously offend those > who are insisting on a single invariable structure!) Not I. I've been advocating a multiple layer structure for a few messages now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 14:19:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811160525.B22401@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > truly demented idea: > build a hardware device that can read the image file, connects > via 34 or 50 pin cable to an FDC, and that produces pulses > that look like disk data to the FDC. Great idea! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 14:23:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <003c01c47ff9$abf91ab0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > If reliable retrieval in the future is of no concern, > then I propose a format conisting of an empty file. > At least you'll be certain of what you get :-) > > Seriously, after all the discussion of bit-rot on > various media, how can you consider some sort of > checksum to be anything other than essential? > > Some sort of error-correcting code might be an > even better idea. I've considered that the spec should include the ability to encode in several different DEFINED formats, using different DEFINED checksum schemes. An error-correcting CRC scheme would definitely be one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 12 14:39:35 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Lost Vector Computers to Another Start up Message-ID: <014901c480a4$1aa9bd20$37406b43@66067007> A guy contacted me back on the 10th offering me a complete line of Vector Graphic Computers. Hardware, manuals (tech & user), and sales literature for all of it, free for pickup. Asked him the same day when and were could I pick it all up and today I get my answer back saying it's all gone to a startup computer museum at the UT-Arlington campus. Talk about bad luck and everyone here in Texas wanting to start a computer museum. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 14:40:23 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20040812122452.S38647@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: > > BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? > Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed > a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. > Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device > though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"? Many years ago, I attended a presentation about a holographic system the "could store" MANY gigabytes per cc. The phrase "can store" was used a lot. When asked about current progress, they were VERY evasive. After about a dozen questions, they admitted that they had not yet achieved the multi-gigabyte capacity. After many more questions, they finally admitted that the current capacity was 27 bits. It is a good proof of concept, but the differentiation between projection and accomplishment is significant. 'course by now, they very well might have reached the capacity goals. Similarly there is a proponent of alternate fuel vehicles who is constantly quoting specs that include impressive results. He is very evasive about timeframe of availability. But it turns out that his vehicle is NOT in production. There isn't even a prototype! His "data" is all results of "simulations", and many of his "can do" numbers require a complete restructure of society. Even when explicity challenged, he adamently refuses to acknowledge a difference between possibilities and existence. From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 12 14:44:17 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092311929.10829.60.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 12, 2004 11:58:50 AM Message-ID: <20040812194417.09C0D109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > Certainly nothing too complex though; error handling of the XML format's > probably the bit that takes most of the effort (coping with malformed > data without crashing the parser or eating up memory etc.) Actually, that's the easy part---it is mandated by the XML spec that any malformed XML will cause the XML parser to report the error to the user, and *stop immediately* and do no further processing. It's then up to the user to correct the XML file and start again. -spc (See? Easy error handling 8-P From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 14:44:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <30086167.1092274375474.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I did not say it was the primary purpose. The data blocks work hand in > hand with the formatting information. It is fine to make a standard > extensible, but what good does it do if the (I hate the use the word) > file can't be gotten without jumping through major hoops because how the > data was stored in the image file wasn't extended out to make blocks. If > you have to iterate through formatting information to get data then you > have to be intimately familiar with the disk format in use. It means any > GENERAL utility to read an image file for data access will have to KNOW > about all machione supported rather than just getting some type of data > identifier and reading the data out. > > I think part of the problem here is that the word file is being taken > literally to mean filename, size, data, etc. I am using in the context > of a block of data. It has NOTHING to do with how the data is on the > disk, where it is stored, the recording format, etc. It is just a piece > of data... One way to resolve this is to put comments in the image file pointing out where a block of data ("file") starts and how long it is. This can also be built into the spec as a tag, rather than relying on human readable comments to effect this. > I am talking about two separate sections inside the same image file. One > of the sections contains data blocks. The other has specific formatting > information and POINTS to the data in the data blocks. A utility program > could then SIMPLY get any type of data out of the image file without the > utility being out of date as soon as someone added a new physical > format. The spec COULD be made to allow for this, and I don't see a reason why not. It's just an organizational attribute. I'll add it to the notes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 12 14:52:33 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: URL for UT Museum Message-ID: <015301c480a5$ea043540$37406b43@66067007> You can check out their museum at http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum@CSE/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 12 14:51:25 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <411BCA3D.5040908@jetnet.ab.ca> Stan Barr wrote: > Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed > a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. > Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device > though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 12 14:58:52 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: music References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811185301.04807b68@mail.30below.com> <200408120358.XAA27113@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <411BCBFC.1060702@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > It would. Certainly go down to the DC. I understand that a small but > decent percentage of the population (mostly children) can hear as high > as 25KHz, and I'd definitely want a good deal of headroom above that. No it is sampling rate here that is the problem for 10,000 Hz. This signal gets chopped into a sine or square or triangle wave. Ok for telephone but not music. Ben. From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 12 15:10:53 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Charset/CCDD (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive In-Reply-To: <411B956A.18107.F40887C@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 12, 2004 04:06:02 PM Message-ID: <20040812201053.AC42F109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > Rather then restricting the encodeing of the XML file to a > specific charset, we need to restrict the USAGE within the > standard to certain characters, regardless of the encodeing. Unless otherwise noted, XML files are assumed to be encoded in UTF-8, *but* an XML parser is required to abort at the first error in the XML file. If a parser is reading an XML file without an explicit character set encoding scheme (which means it's assuming UTF-8) and it reads a character that is illegal (say the file was encoded in ISO-8859-3) it gives up (usually with an "illegal character at such-n-such position" error). Right now, this is a real problem with XML deployment (it gets even wierder when XML files are transported via HTTP but I'm getting ahead of myself) so when I suggested that (if we are using XML) that each *must* start with: It was a way of self-defense. Perhaps it can be relaxed some and require: and if the encoding scheme isn't defined, it's an error and further processing of the archive should stop. > I suggest to restrict the caracters used in tags, attribute > names and attributes to 'A-Z' (uppercase), '0-9' and '-'. Unfortunately, XML is defined with lowercase (or it may be case sensitive---I do know that all XML I've seen is with lowercase tags, and it's pretty much a standard). -spc (hmmm ... ) From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 15:11:14 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <11762017.1092341475487.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> comments below... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Aug 12, 2004 3:09 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >From: "melamy@earthlink.net" > ---snip--- > >The image file that you are discussing is only good as a "how to" to write >arbitrary data to arbitrary media. It is only good for creating a final >media image because the format being contemplated (mixing data into the >physical spec) will preclude the file from standing on its own. No, that is not true. The description of the physical data in the archive should be sufficient to recover the system side data. I can state this because the system side data is just a subset of the physical data. *** if all you are describing is tracks, sectors and heads then you have not included ANY information as to how to get at a specific piece of data in the image file. You can certainly get a sector piece but you will have no clue how to connect individual pieces together to make a block of data. Only platform specific information will get you to that point and that means text has to be included to tell someone how to write software that accesses a particular file structure on a particular OS. If you have that file information when the image file is created, it would be easy to save the info and then be able to get at any file inside of the image file without ANY knowledge of the physical file structure or OS. I recommend that the archive should include enough information to translate from the physical to the system but for archiving purposes, that is not absolutely necessary. *** this information is not trivial, but if we make the data separate then it is if we save the file information too. It is not that hard to describe as part of the header what FM looks like. Still, if we restrict all archived information to include this, some unknown formats may not be archived because the person with the data doesn't know that format. It is better to capture the data first. It may also be that the only way that person has to capture the data is the output of a controller chip. The archiving should allow this as well ( more in the format the Steve would like it all to be in ). *** not sure why this relates to the format I was proposing. What I was desdcribing was a way to do both low level bytes as well as blocks of data This file could later be combined with the more physical information when that was available, just as a archive file that originally had only physical information could be appended with the data as seen by the system. What this means is that some of the archived files may not be directly useable by Steve and his tools without some more in depth knowledge about the encoding use. It doesn't make it impossible to use, just difficult. *** is is not a encoding issue with regards to the hardware level. There are three standards just for 8" disks - FM, MFM, and M2M. ISIS DD uses M2M and I for one want to be able to use my ISIS software independent of the media it is on. I also don't want to have to write a major utility (in other words a small OS) just to read the image file. Dwight >I was >proposing identifying data blocks as files if that is what they were. The >data blocks would have been sequential and trivial to retrieve. That is >hardly what I would call defining a file system as part of the image file. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 15:17:28 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <18752727.1092341848900.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> comments below... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 12, 2004 3:44 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I did not say it was the primary purpose. The data blocks work hand in > hand with the formatting information. It is fine to make a standard > extensible, but what good does it do if the (I hate the use the word) > file can't be gotten without jumping through major hoops because how the > data was stored in the image file wasn't extended out to make blocks. If > you have to iterate through formatting information to get data then you > have to be intimately familiar with the disk format in use. It means any > GENERAL utility to read an image file for data access will have to KNOW > about all machione supported rather than just getting some type of data > identifier and reading the data out. > > I think part of the problem here is that the word file is being taken > literally to mean filename, size, data, etc. I am using in the context > of a block of data. It has NOTHING to do with how the data is on the > disk, where it is stored, the recording format, etc. It is just a piece > of data... One way to resolve this is to put comments in the image file pointing out where a block of data ("file") starts and how long it is. This can also be built into the spec as a tag, rather than relying on human readable comments to effect this. *** I agree comments could help explain how to get info out of the image file, but if you don't create data blocks in a fashion that implies knowledge of the file system, then you can not just simply point at the data block and say how long it is. If you are talking about my propsed concept then you can just point at a data block and go get it. > I am talking about two separate sections inside the same image file. One > of the sections contains data blocks. The other has specific formatting > information and POINTS to the data in the data blocks. A utility program > could then SIMPLY get any type of data out of the image file without the > utility being out of date as soon as someone added a new physical > format. The spec COULD be made to allow for this, and I don't see a reason why not. It's just an organizational attribute. I'll add it to the notes. *** great, I would hope that people who are archiving disks will use the data blocks rather than embedding the data in the physical format. It just makes life easier for everyone. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 12 15:14:12 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Charset/CCDD (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive References: <20040812201053.AC42F109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <411BCF94.7060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > >>Rather then restricting the encodeing of the XML file to a >>specific charset, we need to restrict the USAGE within the >>standard to certain characters, regardless of the encodeing. > > > Unless otherwise noted, XML files are assumed to be encoded in UTF-8, > *but* an XML parser is required to abort at the first error in the XML file. > If a parser is reading an XML file without an explicit character set > encoding scheme (which means it's assuming UTF-8) and it reads a character > that is illegal (say the file was encoded in ISO-8859-3) it gives up > (usually with an "illegal character at such-n-such position" error). What about a boot-strapable subset and revised error handeling? Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 15:34:00 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <18752727.1092341848900.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <18752727.1092341848900.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040812132640.H38647@shell.lmi.net> I think that capability of including comments is essential! For example: CRC error on disk. Not yet determined whether it is a read error, or a deliberate component of copy protection or Note that HEAD NUMBER field in sector header is wrong. Machine uses WD controller, and doesn't care about that field, therefore, the incorrect value does not need to be replicated for normal use. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 12 15:45:47 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408120045.RAA02547@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <005201c480ad$5bcd3850$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Part of the problem here is that if the file containing > the archive had any bit rot, most systems designed to > read that media would simply fail to read the information. > In many cases, it might not even be possible to read the > CRC after the error occured. My reason for mandating a CRC would be that otherwise you have no way of knowing that an error has occurred. An unreliable archive format is a terrible thing to foist on future generations: they should be able to know whether the data has been correctly preserved or not. Without a CRC (or similar mechanism) you have no guarantee of that. One of the advantages of storing zip (or rar or whatever) archives on CD is that if you can copy it off and unzip it, you can reasonably expect the end result to be an accurate reproduction of the original. > For error correction, one must also realize that one > can only correct a single burst of errors that is > smaller than a size specified by the correction method. Error correction is just an added bonus and may or may not be worth the additional effort. Perhaps optional additional redundancy (OpenVMS BACKUP will write a parity block of data for every N blocks of real data, PAR implements "RAID for newsgroups"). None of these schemes prevent you fiddling with the data to use your additional expert knowledge to "fix up" a broken data stream (as long as you are willing to go the extra mile and have the knowledge to do so, as in the case you relate). However, if you read the archive and you get a bunch of bits out and no error, how do you even know to look (unless, again as in your case, the initial data encoding is such that certain "impossible" conditions might occur and give you a clue). That's why an error detection mechanism of some sort is essential. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.ath.cx Mon Aug 9 09:29:52 2004 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.ath.cx (gordonjcp@gjcp.ath.cx) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Altos 386-1000 Install media, manuals, or anything else Message-ID: <12931.195.212.29.83.1092061792.squirrel@server.inet> Hi there, I've just acquired an Altos 386-1000. It's got an expansion board with what seems to be two AUIs and four extra serial ports, what appears to be 14M of RAM, and a 300-odd Mb hard disk that I suspect may be failing. Does anyone have a copy of any manuals, or any install media for this? It is running some kind of Sys V Unix, and does actually boot most of the time, but I'd like to fit another (quieter, if nothing else) drive to it. Also, it has a lot of old customer information from the previous owner, and I'd like to do a clean install if at all possible. Many thanks, Gordon JC Pearce. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 11 08:17:46 2004 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092226101.9446.56.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <27227583.1092221433755.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <411A389A.16284.9EDFB31@localhost> Am 11 Aug 2004 12:08 meinte Jules Richardson: > On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 10:50, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > Hi all, after reading all this morning's posts, I thought I would throw out some thoughts. > > XML as a readable format is a great idea. > I haven't done any serious playing with XML in the last couple of years, > but back when I did, my experience was that XML is not a good format for > mixing human-readable and binary data within the XML structure itself. Only if you intend to keep it 100% human readable. > To make matters worse, the XML spec (at least at the time) did not > define whether it was possible to pass several XML documents down the > same data stream (or, as we'd likely need for this, XML documents mixed > with raw binary). Typically, parsers of the day expected to take control > of the data stream and expected it to contain one XML document only - > often closing the stream themselves afterwards. Now, that's a feature of the reading application. XML does not stat what happens next since this is outside the scope. It is perfectly op to look for the next Document, or the next start tag of the same document type, or for whatever. > I did end up writing my own parser in a couple of KB of code which was a > little more flexible in data stream handling (so XML's certainly not a > heavyweight format, and could likely be handled on pretty much any > machine), but it would be nice to make use of off-the-shelf parsers for > platforms that have them where possible. Right, but especialy when we're coming down to classic platforms, such building blocks are not always usable, and in general way oversized. On a 48k Apple (or a 64 K 4 MHz CP/M machine) we don't have the space to just port a C-app that has 'only' 100k of code size. So reader/writer applications for the original environment have to be small and special to type. > As you've also said, my initial thought for a data format was to keep > human-readable config seperate from binary data. The human-readable > config would contain a table of lengths/offsets for the binary data > giving the actual definition. This does have the advantage that if the > binary data happens to be a linear sequence of blocks (sectors in the > case of a disk image) then the raw image can easily be extracted if > needs be (say, to allow conversion to a different format) Well, that is only true if you define binary data as 8 Bit and all means of transport as 100% transparent. Just, this hasn't worked that way in the past, and I doubt that we will be safe from changes in the future. As for the character size: we had in the past everything from 6 to 12 Bit (ok, I can't remember 11 Bit characters/words) as 'binary' characters. Of course 6,7 and 8 Bit Bytes can be easy stored in a 8 Bit Byte, but what about 9 Bit (Bull) or 12 (DEC)? At that point you already have to incooperate speciual trans- formation rules which are not necersary transparent. Also for the requirement of a transparent transport: When transfering files between different architectures we usualy have code or even format conversions. Most notable code conversion would be, for example, ISO 8859-1 <-> EBCDIC which totally destroys the 'binary' part. Or take format conversions as done on the way between Unix style files and (Win-)DOS, LF vs CR/LF. Whenever you leave the A-Z and 0-9 range we are likely to encounter such problems. Shure, one could code an app capable to read ASCII/Binary on a EBCDIC Machine and vice versa, but to my experience (doing programming since 25 years in mixed environments) it's not only a boring job, but also one of the most sensitive to errors. Any kind of standard format must be true machine independent. Thus (at least when using the recommended representation) be able to be transferred across all platforms thinkable of. > > I looked at the CAPS format and in part that would be okay. I would like > > to throw in an idea of whatever we create as a standard actually have > > three sections to it. > So, first section is all the 'fuzzy' data (author, date, version info, > description etc.), second section describes the layout of the binary > data (offsets, surfaces, etc.), and the third section is the raw binary > data itself? If so, I'm certainly happy with that :-) I would rather go for an anoted format, where more detailed information can be added at any point, and not necersary in certain sections. Especialy since the 'fuzzy' data is usualy not needed for the job itself. > One aside - what's the natural way of defining data on a GCR floppy? Do > heads/sectors/tracks still make sense as an addressing mode, but it's > just that the number of sectors per track varies according to the track > number? Or isn't it that simple? Well, that's already outside of what a standard definition can define without doubt. To my understanding interpretation of Data is always part of a real application. As soon as it touches machine or format specific implementation details a standard may only give guidelines how to store them properly, but not how to interprete. That's part of an actual reader implementation. And each rader will of course only understand parts he's made for - e.g. a Apple DOS 3.3 reader will have no idea what a tape label for a IBM tape is not to mention be able to differentiate between the various header types. Reader/Writer apps will always be as specific as they are right now, when handling a proprietary format. The big advantage is that intermediate tools, like archiving, indexing, etc.pp can be shared. Well, in fact it's the only advantage, except the fact that one doesn't have to figure out a new format each time, and the simple format does allow the ad hoc inclusion of new machines/systems. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Aug 8 20:54:59 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:09 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: <581D24FA-E848-11D8-85E8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 7, 4 01:04:02 am Message-ID: <200408090155.i791t2xS017602@mail.bcpl.net> On 7 Aug 2004 at 22:53, Tony Duell wrote: > One day I must assemble the [HP 9830] terminal emulator ROM code from > the patent.... You had mentioned in an earlier post the (U.S.) patent numbers for the 9810, 9820, and 9830. Would you have a list of others related to those units, e.g., for the ROM mentioned above? (Or is it contained in 4,012,725; I confess that I haven't read the entire patent...being 590 pages, it's a bit slow going! :-) -- Dave From emxlists at tstf.net Sun Aug 8 21:35:57 2004 From: emxlists at tstf.net (emx) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408070642.AA14715@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1139052492.20040809093557@tstf.net> Here is a post that was made on one of the web sites dedicated to John Titor. Regards E. Just a quick note on the 5100. I'm not sure if anyone else has posted anything about the 5100, but this machine was very interesting. In the early 80's, I worked on a slightly upgraded version of the 5100 called the 5110. The 5100/5110 machine executed code intended for IBM mainframes of the time (System 360/370) via a simple processor that emulated the old 360/370 CPU. Languages, such as APL or VS BASIC were programs written in machine language, that were, in turn, interpreted by the CPU in a lower level language called 'Microcode' Microcode allowed IBM to modify or enhance basic machine language instructions at will after the mainframe was delivered to the customer. The concept was 'ship an initial version of the 'machine', but allow upgrades as they were developed without the wholesale replacement of hardware'. To change a basic instruction in microprocessors today usually requires a physical change in the chip, since all instructions are 'hard-wired' into the design of chip. The core design of the 5100 series machine was an emulator of the old IBM 360/370. The CPU of these machines was designed to execute the exact same microcode of the giant mainframes which preceded them. In fact, the 5100 shipped with a ROS (Read Only Storage, rather than ROM, Read Only Memory) card that contained the microcode for the 370 mainframe computer CPU. Any program designed for the 370 could, theoretically, run on the 5100 or 5110. IBM shipped either VS BASIC or VS APL, written in IBM machine language for the 370, on a ROS card in each 5100. No need to recompile, no need to change much, since the little 5100 ran the exact same code as the mainframe. It was not a fast machine, but it worked, and the performance of the old 5100 was good enough to run many of the same applications we had developed on our $10 million twin IBM 370 mainframe installation. APL and VS BASIC apps ran with little or no modification, except for storage device definitions, which were limited to 300KB 8" floppies or 150KB streaming tape cartridges. If 'John Titor' had access to the endless library of old IBM applications written for the 370 (and later 30X0 and 970 series) machines in his time, a 5100 would be a handy, lightweight, SMALL device that could be transported back to his time to run this code. Certainly, no old 370 or subsequent compatible machines from IBM would be available in 2036 to run this code, but a 5100 could do it, and could be moved via his 'time machine'. The basic 5100 machine weighed about 70 pounds and looked like a suitcase. How much software would be available? IBM salesmen used to carry around a little 1.5" thick book of applications written for all possible businesses, from paint manufacturers to hog farming operations that could be installed on any generic IBM 370 compatible mainframe. One can STILL see companies all over the Earth running code that was written many years ago, installed on newer hardware, but running the exact same instructions used in the late 60's, mid-70's. If 'John Titor' and his tales of time travel are a hoax, the inclusion of the 5100 is a remarkable bit of technology that is quite plausible for a society that needs basic data processing, but lacks working hardware and working applications. It's -astonishingly- plausible. I mean no disrespect to those who believe the 'John Titor' story, but only wish to point out the masterful inclusion of something that really could be true. Imagine a 2030's recon group accessing an old IBM branch office, with old archives of business applications stored on old tapes, just waiting for the correct hardware to run on. It would be a virtual gold-mine, with the right hardware... --- Saturday, August 7, 2004, 1:42:33 PM, you wrote: > Hello ClassicCmp friends, > Right now as I type this an interview is in progress on the > Coast to Coast AM late night radio talk show about a supposed > time traveler who went back from 2036 to 1975 to obtain a > classic computer, specifically IBM 5100. Needless to say, > this story got me highly intrigued. > Since I don't really know anything about the machine in question, > I thought I would ask the collective list wisdom. There must have > been something really special about IBM 5100 for them to go back > for it from 2036. Does anyone know anything about that machine? > MS From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 9 11:39:11 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: 8" Floppy Project In-Reply-To: <200408091531.i79FVGbc066197@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200408091639.i79Gd2JX028073@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Personally, I'm becoming convinced that we need a USB to floppy "device, configurable for 8", 5.25" and 3.5" drives, single/double/quad density, single/double sided, with suitable software (of course). Perhaps separate slightly separate devices are needed for different drive types (e.g. 8" vs. 5.25"). And preferably capable of supporting two drives. I took apart a USB 3.5" drive hoping that it was a standard 3.5" drive (34-conductor interface) with a USB "controller". Alas, however, it was a "fully integrated" device. Anyone interested in tackling the USB adapter project? It's beyond my capabilities at this point. From pzachary at sasquatch.com Mon Aug 9 11:21:33 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: DOS looking like a mainframe project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54272.216.218.236.136.1092068493.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> not quite the right vintage but somewhere I have a shareware IBM/360 emulator, or perhaps SIMH has a as400 mode? P_ > > Ok, Here's another pet project of mine.. I Have a simple DOS6.22 > installed in one of my laptops, and > I want to make it look like as much like an IBM (it's an IBM laptop too > btw) mainframe as possible. I am working > on a vauge memory from a job over 10 years ago when I had an account on > the R&D little mainframe. > > I think the machine was an early AS400, It filled 3 Equipment Racks. > > This was about the time of the Loma-Preata Earthquake (for non > california readers, I forget the year but > both San Francisco and Oakland, and San Jose were all effected by it, > and that was the one where the > freeway collapsed and many of the buildings in SF's Marina District > suffered from liquifacation) > > > > I think it ran somthing like VM/OS, anyway it had Xedit for a system > editor and I have "the heisling > editor" which is very much like xedit. > > Can any one capture screens from a Mainframe like this? I'd love to see > them.. > > Esp. the login screen, A directory/datset screen (where in you put an > X near a file and hit > enter to edit the file.) and any other sorts of menu screens. > > Thanks. From sieler at allegro.com Mon Aug 9 17:49:01 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: rarest computers In-Reply-To: <00ee01c4790b$d8fd5a20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <41179CED.14592.7BB1ADE8@localhost> Re: > The rarest? Possibly the Intel PC with an LSI > Unisys Micro-A embedded in it. A ClearPath? I'm looking for one ... but with software :) -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Aug 10 10:40:17 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: References: <200408061703.i76H31xX025870@mail.bcpl.net> from "J. David Bryan" at Aug 6, 4 01:02:59 pm Message-ID: <200408101540.i7AFeJki025797@mail.bcpl.net> On 8 Aug 2004 at 21:42, Tony Duell wrote: > So the LED is dark if the machine is off, on steadily if the machine > is on and no error (555 is held reset, so the output is low all the > time), and blinks (controlled by the 555) if there's an error. The chief electrical engineer at our company in the 1980s was a fellow who excelled at making components in his designs do two or three jobs each. It's an artistry that HP displayed, as you indicate. > I can't easily reproduce the schematic in ascii-art, and I don't have > a scanner, but if anyone is seriously interested I will see what can > be done. The schematic for the HP 64000 circuit appears on page 8-41 of: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/64000/64100-90910_64100svc_Dec83.pdf ...and it's described on page 8-13. -- Dave From Trevor.Wright at metronetbcv.com Wed Aug 11 07:24:41 2004 From: Trevor.Wright at metronetbcv.com (Wright Trevor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Matrox graphic card Message-ID: ********************************************************************************* Before acting on this e-mail or opening any attachment you are advised to read Metronet Rail BCV Limited's disclaimer at the end of this e-mail. ********************************************************************************* Hi lee I found this discussion thread recently and would be interested in the Matrox Graphic cards - have you still got? Best Regards Trevor Wright Recently rescued .. HP 9000/300 - 68010 CPU, 1MB RAM + video (so it says) HP 9153A - 2 of, floppy + HD (probably 10MB) HP 35731A - 12" 512x400 monochrome monitor (some burn) HP 46021A - keyboard HP 46083A - HP-HIL rotary control HP 46084A - HP-HIL ID module One of the 9153A drives is alleged to contain the software to dribe a gas chromatograph (written in PASCAL) the other is alleged to contain the PASCAL compiller environment. Not tested as yet. Also .. MEM/340 - 4MB multibus II(?) memory card And bought recently .. Heurikon M220 - 5 of, VME, 68020/68881, 4MB DRAM, SCSI, 2 x SERIAL Matrox MMG640 - 2 of, VME, graphics, ?? I need info for the Matrox and Heurikon boards, and possibly ROM images, and I could use a VME backplane or two (or other VME cards such as ethernet) so the HP stuff and the multibus card are available for swap/sale. I can probably deliver/collect within the UK. Cheers Lee. ********************************************************************************* Any opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual and not necessarily the company. This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient. It may contain material protected by attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender or Metronet Rail BCV Limited's service desk on 0870 458 3862 and then delete this message. Unencrypted e-mail is intrinsically insecure and Metronet Rail BCV Limited does not accept responsibility for any changes made to this e-mail or attachments during its transmission. If you are unsure of the authenticity of this e-mail then please contact the sender. Virus Disclaimer: Every effort has been made to ensure that this e-mail is virus free. However Metronet Rail BCV Limited does not accept any liability in respect to an undetected virus and recommends that the recipient(s) use an up to date virus scanner. Metronet Rail BCV Limited Registered Office: Templar House, 81-87 High Holborn, London WC1V 6NU. Company Number: 3923496 ********************************************************************************** From rfama at deltacomputergroup.com Wed Aug 11 11:21:13 2004 From: rfama at deltacomputergroup.com (Rick Fama) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: 5362 SSP Diskettes Message-ID: <004201c47fbf$38e0e380$a001a8c0@rfama> Hello, My name is Rick Fama from Delta Computer Group. We are in need of the SSP diskettes for a IBM 5362. Any idea of where I can obtain these? Thanks From HB at kpll.dk Thu Aug 12 06:48:56 2004 From: HB at kpll.dk (Bigum, Henrik) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <4BFD01171074D14E808A8D5AC5CB4B820B14E9@EXCHANGE> Hi, I assume you have left the B26 platform for a long time ago. But what you had in your hand was a excellent machine, with no comparison at that time, think about running multitasking on an 80186 platform, no one else, as far I know, has done that. You can not boot on any DOS/Windows disks, you have to have an B26 operating system, the prompt V 9.2 B,D,L,M,P,T:_ is at debug level, you can choose here to boot on varios sources, but again you need an old BTOS/CTOS os I did work for Burroughs-Unisys- and a Unisys consultant company at that time working primary with BTOS/CTOS. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Henrik Bigum IT-Consultant KPLL Pilestr?de 65 1112 K?benhavn K e-mail hb@kpll.dk Phone +4533744100 Fax +4533744001 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:15:22 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Metal Case Northstar Horizon -- (WOW*RARE*L@@K BOXED!!!11) In-Reply-To: <4116D389.A8518038@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <000301c480a0$caa43ba0$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim > Sent: 09 August 2004 02:30 > To: Dwight K. Elvey; General@dmzms01.aramiska.net; On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Metal Case Northstar Horizon -- (WOW*RARE*L@@K > BOXED!!!11) > Ah, well reminded! I took lots of pictures of the metal cased machines at Bletchley last weekend, including one that's WOW*BOXED*L@@K!!! We also found 3 wooden cased ones but they weren't easily photographed. I'm pretty sure I'm OK publishing the pix on the web without getting anyone into trouble; I took a lot of some of the storage inhabitants as well as the museum room itself so once I get my finger out I'll sort out the web page. Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:15:22 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 08 August 2004 21:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > Eventually. I was speaking with some folks at Bletchly Park > a few years ago but that never went anywhere. > > Perhaps we can try again? Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities and aside from the volunteers I suspect they don't have the interest either. I don't know what your budget is but the Fairfield Halls in Croydon, London was where we had the CGE-UK the other week and that was a good venue for VCF type events. Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:15:22 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c480a0$caf39420$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 08 August 2004 19:48 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto > Restoration + Emulation > > > [Apple ///] > > > At least 3 - you've got 1, I've got 2 and I bet Tony's got one > > somewhere... > > Actually, I don't have one... Would you like to put that to rights? You'd need to fix the physically broken keyboard but aside from that I believe it's a working machine. Got a monitor too! > > What might be uncommon these days is a *working* /// :) > > But if I did, I'd get it working :-) Natch! Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:23:00 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: <10408091223.ZM12115@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000801c480a1$da78b410$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 09 August 2004 12:24 > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TKQ50 proms > > > I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a > TQK50 controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. > Can anyone help? Yep, I'm sure we've got a TQK50 on the shelves in stores; I can pull it and dump the ROMs for you. If stores come up with nothing I know I've got at least 1 at home :) Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 12 16:03:13 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: music In-Reply-To: <411BCBFC.1060702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811185301.04807b68@mail.30below.com> <200408120358.XAA27113@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <411BCBFC.1060702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200408122105.RAA13147@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > No it is sampling rate here that is the problem for 10,000 Hz. This > signal gets chopped into a sine or square or triangle wave. Ok for > telephone but not music. That's a matter for reconstruction filters. Ideally, you take your D->A output and run it through a filter that's flat from DC to the limit frequency (half the sampling rate) and drops instantly to zero gain for anything above that. Of course, no such ideal filter exists, but it's possible to get close enough for a lot of purposes. CD player makers put a lot of effort into approximating such filters. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 16:12:43 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408121756.KAA02248@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408121756.KAA02248@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040812141057.E38647@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Jules > Here is what I've found. It is a disk drive emulator. > Unless a PC is DMA driven, bit banging a floppy is not practical. Disk I/O without DMA is not practical. But it IS possible. Consider the PCJr and Tandy 1000, both of which do disk I/O without DMA on 4.77MHz? machines. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 16:22:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <1092307391.10829.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'd strongly recommend doing exactly that. Keep the data seperate from > the metadata describing it. Mixing the two really detracts from the > human readability aspect for starters - browsing a file with nicely > formatted structured data peppered with streams of encoded media data > (whether hex pairs, base64 or whatever) would give me a headache :-) Are you really going to be spending much time rummaging through image files, as a hobby or something? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 16:33:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: <1092311446.10829.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:11, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. > > [snip] > > That looks good. How's about moving things like author into the > definitions section? I'm not sure that it belongs at the top level, but > more in the section containing archive info (description, creation date > etc.) I think it's rather premature to be discussing implementation :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 12 16:34:52 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092346492.5274.13.camel@dhcp-249235> On Mon, 2004-08-09 at 14:46, Tony Duell wrote: > So what happens in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from > one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs > left running (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore > difficult to maintain -- have you ever seen official schematics to a PC > later than a 286?). Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the > format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on > whatever machine I have access to. I'd go further than Tony and say I'd want the meanings of the symbols used in the data stream to be defined. For example, everything converted to an ASCII character stream. You'll stop laughing when you need to recreate antique data JUST ONCE from some wacko futuristic-scheme-of-the-past and find the data stored in a stupid, inane, and trivial-to-decode format. File size is not a valid objection. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 16:37:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > It might be a good idea if an alternative (enhanced) venue could be > arranged. It seems a dedicated forum [not list] might be a good idea. This > way the ideas could be divided into distinct areas and threads. Files > attached, etc. I agree. I've asked Jay if he can set up a new mailing list for it. If he doesn't get back to me within a day or so then let's just move it over to what you have. It is getting a bit overwhelming here. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 16:52:57 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple Message-ID: <33325176.1092347578720.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> my crude example was a form of picture because words just didn't seem to be conveying what I had in mind... :) -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 12, 2004 5:33 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: archive file format exmaple On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 11:11, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > here is a "crude" example of what I was talking about. > > [snip] > > That looks good. How's about moving things like author into the > definitions section? I'm not sure that it belongs at the top level, but > more in the section containing archive info (description, creation date > etc.) I think it's rather premature to be discussing implementation :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 12 16:56:03 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: rarest computers References: <41179CED.14592.7BB1ADE8@localhost> Message-ID: <003801c480b7$2a6d6780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> From: Stan Sieler >> The rarest? Possibly the Intel PC with an LSI >> Unisys Micro-A embedded in it. >A ClearPath? I'm looking for one ... but with software :) It's booting MCP, if that's what it's called... I havent had it up for about a year. If you know of some interesting diagnostic command requests, I can send you the output. I had the whole thing dismantled at the dumpster it was in, but as I looked over the parts I sort of said 'oh heck, I can't break this up', so carefully put the 8 or so pieces back together and brought it home. It worked, after I figured out the OS/2 start-up for it. The secondary memory and the big custom LSI chip made the decision for me. John A. From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 16:56:18 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <24730962.1092347779623.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I seem to recall that my slow old N* Horizon was doing dd at 4mhz with no dma - in fact it was polled I/O because their wait for I/O available kept locking up so I modified it. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin Sent: Aug 12, 2004 5:12 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Jules > Here is what I've found. It is a disk drive emulator. > Unless a PC is DMA driven, bit banging a floppy is not practical. Disk I/O without DMA is not practical. But it IS possible. Consider the PCJr and Tandy 1000, both of which do disk I/O without DMA on 4.77MHz? machines. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 16:55:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: <411B8CFF.25713.F1FA7AD@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > I would prefer an aproach where both ways are possible, includeing > a third wich allows to put the data even into another file. In the > CCDD definition almost every element (except META) may be empty and > have a HREF attribute pointing to it's content: Nononononono (neineineineineineinein). This would be BAD practice. While I would make the spec allow this, I would *strongly* discourage it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 16:59:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: <1102402.1092319076530.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I agree in all what Hans had to say except for how data would be stored. > This is supposed to be an archive format which would in my view preclude > getting data from the outside world. My only other concern as I have > stated before was that data should not be an integral part of the media. > If a device happens to be a tape drive, the data on the tape still > separates into "file" type data and overhead data required for the tape > physical format. Enbedding the "file" tyupe data inside of the physical > format makes the data inaccessible without special knowledge. Steve, What if you don't know what a tape you are archiving contains in the first place? What if you just want to preserve it in case someone else in the future can figure it out? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 17:00:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > How about breaking up the sections a bit, like HTML sections? > Putting card-catalog information up top in it's own section would speed > indexing and searches. Like this: It's too early to discuss implementation. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 12 03:43:23 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) In-Reply-To: <20040811120427.QWPC13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040811120427.QWPC13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040812084323.GB6301@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 08:04:28AM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Thanks for the very useful information! You are welcome. > I checked the funet archive and found some details, however the PET "IO" document > describes only the 6520's and 6522 - there is no mention of the video controller. The video controller is only present on later models. The earlier video is TTL and non-programmable. Specifically, you should check documents related to the 4016 (16K 40 cols), 4032 (32K 40 cols), and 8032 (32K 80 cols). These all use the same board, but with different ROMs and different jumper settings. > The only other references I found to I/O addresses were obviously a disassembley, > with such meaningful labels as: > > AE810 DS 1 > AE811 DS 1 > AE812 DS 1 > > Can you tell me where (address) the 6545 is located? I do not happen to know that. > I'm going to begin disassembling the Kernel ROM and see if I can figure out enough > to turn on the screen - don't need keyboard (yet) - just want to be able to display > some info. I have run across kernel disassemblies on funet. You shouldn't have to do it all from scratch. > >Once you extract the table and load the 6545, you should be able to sling > >bytes at the screen starting at $8000. Remember that "POKE codes" are not > >ASCII nor PETSCII, they are character codes from the chargen ROM... > I didn't see an obvious reference - can you give me a pointer - all I really > need right now is 0-9,A-F and SPACE - I can determine these by fooling with > the working machine if I have to. I just fired up 'xpet' (part of VICE) and got the following: 0x20 space 0x30-0x39 0-9 0x41-0x46 A-F So I guess it's reasonable ASCII-like. I just made the caution because the strangeness of the PET character set(s) throws people if all they've ever worked with is genuine ASCII. > Btw, do anyone have (or know of) a working stand-alone monitor program which > can be stuffed into the Kernel ROM position? Standalone? No. AFAIK, there's never been a case where someone ripped out the C= kernel and replaced it with 100% home-grown code. There _is_ a monitor program included with all PET ROMs except the first version (from old 4K/8K SRAM PETs). The BRK vector points to it. If you execute a BRK instruction (0x00), that's where you end up. If you do code your own ROM for the $F000-$FFFF block, remember that there's a hardware interrupt at 60Hz on the IRQ line. You'll need an ISR to catch that. In the real ROMs, that's what scans the keyboard matrix, updates the real-time clock, and blinks the cursor (it's not hardware, like on an Apple II). To use it, there has to be enough of the machine working that the keyboard is scanned, and the kernel and editor ROMs ($Fxxx and $Exxx) are present and functional. I had a BASIC ROM die on my 2001-N and it dropped into the monitor at power on. That reminds me, there is a 'diagnostic pin' on the user port (it's documented in most of the user-level docs of the day)... if you reset the processor with the diagnostic pin shorted to ground, it aborts much of the POST logic and jumps to the TIM monitor program. If BASIC is FUBAR, but you have RAM and upper ROM, that should work for you. Something else to check, while I'm thinking about it, is the reset circuit itself - you could wire a manual reset button onto the CPU and give it a kick after powering on. I have lost the message with your exact symptoms, but if it acts totally dead, the processor might not be getting its reset line pulled down briefly at power on. It's probably just a simple RC network hanging off of a 555 timer, acting as a one-shot. PETs, BTW, unlike VIC-20s and C-64s have no provision for user-installed firmware from taking over the machine on power-up (like a game cartridge). You can install 8K-12K of your own stuff, but you have to manually jump to it when the machine finishes POST and gives you the "READY." prompt. That would be a reason to install patched kernel ROMs, but I don't recall it being common in the old days... instructions for that sort of stuff were to turn on the machine and type "SYS X" to jump to the dedicated application. I can't do a lot from here, but recently I got a pod for my Fluke 9010 for the 6502... that would be really handy for checking things out, testing RAM, checksumming ROMs, etc. It's a shame the RAM isn't socketed. That would be an easy thing to test, then (and easy enough to replace with a 62256 SRAM wired into the sockets since ISTR your expansion bus has something on it already). Fortunately, screen RAM is completely separate from the 32K of DRAM. On the old 40 col boards, I think it's a pair of 2114s. Not sure about the 40/80 col selectable boards. I never had to debug video RAM. The machine would still work, but the visible output would be funny depending on how many bits were bad. One other thing to do might be to build a NO-OP tester - that's a 6502 with all 8 data pins bent up so they don't sit in the socket, then certain bits are pulled up and certain bits are pulled down to force an 0xEA on the chip for all read accesses (a NOP instruction). The processor free-runs starting at address $EAEA, then cycles through all addresses so you can watch various select lines on I/O chips and see what pulses and what does not. It won't help diagnose dead RAM chips, but it will help test all address select logic. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Aug-2004 08:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.4 F (-54.7 C) Windchill -101.9 F (-74.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11 kts Grid 088 Barometer 685.2 mb (10432. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 12 03:11:52 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: PICT files In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040811064639.04cc3df8@pc> References: <003001c47f41$a8902fc0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20040810230851.0493db40@pc> <20040811050845.GB22773@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20040811064639.04cc3df8@pc> Message-ID: <20040812081152.GA6301@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 06:53:35AM -0500, John Foust wrote: > Yes, uhm, I wrote what were among the first color PICT image translators > on non-Mac platforms, licensed to ASDG and NewTek for their > paint programs, and another B/W version to SPC for an early version > of Harvard Draw. :-) Then you'd be a good resource to ask... I have this Quicktake 150 camera... when dumped on a Mac, it produces (I'm told) Quicktime Compressed PICT files. In the past, when dumping this camera, any app (Photoshop, ImageConverter, etc.) can handle these files _if_ you have loaded the QT150 software on there first. I found no way to process these files with Open Source tools. There were tools that could handle PICTs, but they puked on the payload portion of the file. They _knew_ there was a chunk there, but didn't know what to do with it. Do you happen to know of any way to digest these files except with the right libraries loaded on a real Mac? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Aug-2004 08:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.7 F (-54.3 C) Windchill -98.3 F (-72.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.19 kts Grid 077 Barometer 685.2 mb (10432. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 17:01:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Charset/CCDD (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard) In-Reply-To: <411B956A.18107.F40887C@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > I suggest to restrict the caracters used in tags, attribute > names and attributes to 'A-Z' (uppercase), '0-9' and '-'. > these are to be found in all character sets I've seen up to > date, and thus able to tunnel whatever needed. For various > data encodeing schemes additional characters may be needed. Agreed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 17:12:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408122212.PAA02379@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" From: "Dwight K. Elvey" ---snip--- > It may also be that the only way that person has to capture the >data is the output of a controller chip. The archiving should allow >this as well ( more in the format the Steve would like it all to >be in ). > >*** not sure why this relates to the format I was proposing. What I was desdcribing was a way to do both low level bytes as well as blocks of data > Hi Steve Again, you've missed the point here. The information may not have anything other than the bit stream and the track. The person extracting the data may have no knowledge of the format ( FM, MFM, M2FM, RLL or whatever ). They are just archiving the data of the disk. I agree that if there is sufficient information available to include such things as sector boundaries, that should be encoded in some method. This may not be in the actual data but as part of the format description ( requires some work to extract from the data ). At the lowest level, the archive may only contain a bit stream that correlates to the signal coming from the drive. Without information as to the encoding method, this may be useless to you. As Sellam has stated, your application is secondary to actually capturing a reproduceable medium. Obviously, most people will not be able to create such information ( I believe I will ). Most will be creating such things as the output data from some standard disk reading chip. These will surely have some form of partioning, either in the header or embedded in the data. This could still be a valid archive input for standard formats. Note the word 'could' and not must. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 17:14:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408122214.PAA02383@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >I think that capability of including comments is essential! > >For example: > >CRC error on disk. Not yet determined whether it is >a read error, or a deliberate component of copy protection > > >or >Note that HEAD NUMBER field in sector header is wrong. >Machine uses WD controller, and doesn't care about that field, >therefore, the incorrect value does not need to be replicated >for normal use. > > Hi A must. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 17:16:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4AE2@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > How would one actually go about re-generating an original media from > the metafile? Do we contemplate connecting some future computer's I/O port > to a 34-pin ribbon cable connected to a 1980's vintage floppy drive? At some > point in this process we're going to have to make some detailed assumptions > on how the metadata will be used 50 or 100 years from now. We can't really guess what people are going to do with the archives 50 or 100 years from now. We can only preserve the data to the best of our ability and as completely as possible, since if we don't, the data will simply disappear. It's better for them to have SOMETHING rather than nothing at all. > This would require us to not only compile the general media format > data but also data on the controller used to generate the media (chip specs, > data gleaned from examining the "format" programs used, etc.). That is something to definitely consider for the implementation phase. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 17:33:14 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408122233.PAA02390@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi Jules >> Here is what I've found. It is a disk drive emulator. >> Unless a PC is DMA driven, bit banging a floppy is not practical. > >Disk I/O without DMA is not practical. But it IS possible. >Consider the PCJr and Tandy 1000, both of which do disk I/O >without DMA on 4.77MHz? machines. > > True, but it does require the hardware to be setup for it. I have a Forth processor ( NC4000 ) that I talk directly to the controller chip without DMA. Newer processors are faster but may have latency issues. Using a dedicated uP or some FPLA is the right way to handle it. Of course the problem is multiplies when you have no controller chip and you are talking about raw bit streamed data. It was mentioned earlier that for logging bit stream data, the gaps my have trash in them that causes loss of sync. This should also be handled in the specification. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 17:34:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <318980-220048412182434540@M2W084.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, melamy@earthlink.net wrote: > you have to think beyond emulators and think of just getting the data. You > started this whole thing out by asking for ideas and concepts to make sure > that disks could be made in years to come. I challenge you to expand the > horizon and suggest that what you need is a way to get the data out easily > and make disks. Exactly. But I agree that separating the data out and explicitly defining it in blocks inside the imagefile is the best overall solution for all situations. No one solution will be, considering what we're trying to do here, which is incorporate all manner of storage media. I have not been referring to emulators to make my point unless it's applicable. As I've been saying all along, emulators are a SECONDARY concern. > Personally, I have zero use for a image file format that can only be used > to make disks and makes getting data out of it a pain in the backside. You seem to be focusing on 5% of the messages posted and ignoring the other 95% where it has been made clear that the intent of this specification is not just to make disk images. > Maybe in years, I will need to make a floppy disk, but I believe that > getting the data out (files or whatever you choose to call them) is more > important and will be that way in the future also. Where small things can > get lost, having a "standard" image file format that let's me do both makes > more sense to me. Maybe I just got knocked in the head, but I seem to recall proposing this on more than one occassion. > The image file that you are discussing is only good as a "how to" to write > arbitrary data to arbitrary media. If that's what you think then I can say with confidence that you have either been deleting messages without reading them or reading messages without comprehending them. Steve, your points are well taken and you've been heard. At this point, I see no value in arguing over specifics since we haven't even really begun defining an actual spec yet. We're just discussing it. Arguing out the fine points comes later. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 12 17:36:54 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? In-Reply-To: <20040812122452.S38647@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> <20040812122452.S38647@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <411BF106.4000200@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: > >>>BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? >> >>Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed >>a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. >>Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device >>though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! > > > Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"? > Many years ago, I attended a presentation about a holographic > system the "could store" MANY gigabytes per cc. The phrase > "can store" was used a lot. When asked about current progress, > they were VERY evasive. After about a dozen questions, they > admitted that they had not yet achieved the multi-gigabyte > capacity. After many more questions, they finally admitted > that the current capacity was 27 bits. It is a good proof of > concept, but the differentiation between projection and > accomplishment is significant. > 'course by now, they very well might have reached the > capacity goals. > > > Similarly there is a proponent of alternate fuel vehicles who > is constantly quoting specs that include impressive results. > He is very evasive about timeframe of availability. > But it turns out that his vehicle is NOT in production. > There isn't even a prototype! His "data" is all results > of "simulations", and many of his "can do" numbers require > a complete restructure of society. Even when explicity > challenged, he adamently refuses to acknowledge a difference > between possibilities and existence. A lot of theorists can't tell that there *is* a difference. I worked with a guy like that at UT. I always wanted to invite him to dinner, and present him with a 20-minute discourse on how I could prepare his meal. Doc From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 12 17:36:51 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: DOS looking like a mainframe project In-Reply-To: <54272.216.218.236.136.1092068493.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> References: <54272.216.218.236.136.1092068493.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> Message-ID: <1A96E0B8-ECB0-11D8-9FF3-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 9, 2004, at 9:21 AM, wrote: > not quite the right vintage but somewhere I have a shareware IBM/360 > emulator, or perhaps SIMH has a as400 mode? > I think you are thinking of Hercules - I have a copy of that for my Mac iBook, but I don't have an OS for it...too busy with other stuff... I was wondering if anyone had an IBM classic computer running, and could make screen shots of their 3270 sessions... I think the machine I was running on was running OS/MVS ??? does that make sense? It had a software system named vtam? Where you would vary x on or drain y or vary y off. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 12 17:41:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <200408122241.PAA02399@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was more referring to a modern PC than specific older hardware. The issue with doing direct I/O is the it needs to be predictable and on time. Most modern machines can no longer to that reliably without using DMA. They have too may other things that they are expected to do simultaneously. Also because of multiple levels of caching, real-time predictability is not practical. In the N*, they dedicate a predictable processor to do just the disk I/O and nothing else. Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >I seem to recall that my slow old N* Horizon was doing dd at 4mhz with no dma - in fact it was polled I/O because their wait for I/O available kept locking up so I modified it. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin >Sent: Aug 12, 2004 5:12 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > >On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi Jules >> Here is what I've found. It is a disk drive emulator. >> Unless a PC is DMA driven, bit banging a floppy is not practical. > >Disk I/O without DMA is not practical. But it IS possible. >Consider the PCJr and Tandy 1000, both of which do disk I/O >without DMA on 4.77MHz? machines. > > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 17:46:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Lost Vector Computers to Another Start up In-Reply-To: <014901c480a4$1aa9bd20$37406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Keys wrote: > A guy contacted me back on the 10th offering me a complete line of Vector > Graphic Computers. Hardware, manuals (tech & user), and sales literature for > all of it, free for pickup. Asked him the same day when and were could I > pick it all up and today I get my answer back saying it's all gone to a > startup computer museum at the UT-Arlington campus. Talk about bad luck and > everyone here in Texas wanting to start a computer museum. Why is that bad luck? I see it as positive that more oragnizations are popping up to preserve this stuff. One organization should not have everything anyway. What if that organization has financial problems or, worse, goes under? We've seen this in the past, and it is not pretty. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 17:49:08 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Message-ID: <25365067.1092350949108.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> no mention of age and unfortunately I am old enough to have worked on and designed predicatbale systems... -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Aug 12, 2004 6:41 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard Hi I was more referring to a modern PC than specific older hardware. The issue with doing direct I/O is the it needs to be predictable and on time. Most modern machines can no longer to that reliably without using DMA. They have too may other things that they are expected to do simultaneously. Also because of multiple levels of caching, real-time predictability is not practical. In the N*, they dedicate a predictable processor to do just the disk I/O and nothing else. Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >I seem to recall that my slow old N* Horizon was doing dd at 4mhz with no dma - in fact it was polled I/O because their wait for I/O available kept locking up so I modified it. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin >Sent: Aug 12, 2004 5:12 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > >On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi Jules >> Here is what I've found. It is a disk drive emulator. >> Unless a PC is DMA driven, bit banging a floppy is not practical. > >Disk I/O without DMA is not practical. But it IS possible. >Consider the PCJr and Tandy 1000, both of which do disk I/O >without DMA on 4.77MHz? machines. > > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 18:01:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <11762017.1092341475487.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > No, that is not true. The description of the physical data in the archive > should be sufficient to recover the system side data. I can state > this because the system side data is just a subset of the physical > data. > > *** if all you are describing is tracks, sectors and heads then you have > not included ANY information as to how to get at a specific piece of > data in the image file. You can certainly get a sector piece but you > will have no clue how to connect individual pieces together to make a > block of data. Only platform specific information will get you to that > point and that means text has to be included to tell someone how to > write software that accesses a particular file structure on a particular > OS. If you have that file information when the image file is created, it > would be easy to save the info and then be able to get at any file > inside of the image file without ANY knowledge of the physical file > structure or OS. As long as the original platform and OS are included in the meta data, which should be a requirement, then the person using the archive can read up on how files were stored on that OS and parse the data correctly. It's extra work, but again, it is not always the case that everything will be stored as "files" or "data objects" on the original medium. In some cases, you can't know, or it might be too much work to find out, just what the data objects are. What if the only way to use an imagefile is in it's native image format or structure? I think you are discounting too many non obvious possibilities and focusing only on your idea of the data being represented as objects. It just isn't a universally applicable concept. > I recommend that the archive should include enough information to > translate from the physical to the system but for archiving purposes, > that is not absolutely necessary. > > *** this information is not trivial, but if we make the data separate > then it is if we save the file information too. Again, the file information *is* saved. It's in the image! It just requires a little bit more work to get at it. Or not. It depends on if the tools are there to do the job. My guess is after a few years, there will be plenty of robust tools out there to extract files from all sorts of images. But the main point, again, is that people should not be forced to archive everything as a data object. Remember, the whole premise of this spec was to image data media. Everything we have discussed since then are useful enhancements, but the basic spec, as I see it, remains the same. > *** is is not a encoding issue with regards to the hardware level. There > are three standards just for 8" disks - FM, MFM, and M2M. ISIS DD uses > M2M and I for one want to be able to use my ISIS software independent of > the media it is on. I also don't want to have to write a major utility > (in other words a small OS) just to read the image file. Then you can choose to create archive images using the spec that suit your purposes. But don't always count on everyone else to choose your method. You seem to want everyone to agree that your way of thinking is the only way or the best way. It's not. That's why the spec will allow for multiple ways of imaging media, but only out of necessity dictated by the reality of the various forms of data storage that are out there, and not to make everyone feel good about themselves. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 18:01:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <18752727.1092341848900.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > The spec COULD be made to allow for this, and I don't see a reason why > not. It's just an organizational attribute. I'll add it to the notes. > > *** great, I would hope that people who are archiving disks will use the > data blocks rather than embedding the data in the physical format. It > just makes life easier for everyone. Don't count on it :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 18:03:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040812132640.H38647@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that capability of including comments is essential! > > For example: > > CRC error on disk. Not yet determined whether it is > a read error, or a deliberate component of copy protection > > > or > Note that HEAD NUMBER field in sector header is wrong. > Machine uses WD controller, and doesn't care about that field, > therefore, the incorrect value does not need to be replicated > for normal use. Indeed. That's a given as far as I'm concerned :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 18:05:04 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple Message-ID: <30772560.1092351904655.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> that is real simple. You have a physical section that says it is a sequential block of data. You point to the data block that has a length. End of image file in the case. If you know nothing about the format, all you can do is save a sequential data block. I would still separate the two out for strictly consistency sake, so you can get the data easiliy to analyze. Once anlyzed, the a new image file could be generated with more info. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Aug 12, 2004 5:59 PM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: archive file format exmaple On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I agree in all what Hans had to say except for how data would be stored. > This is supposed to be an archive format which would in my view preclude > getting data from the outside world. My only other concern as I have > stated before was that data should not be an integral part of the media. > If a device happens to be a tape drive, the data on the tape still > separates into "file" type data and overhead data required for the tape > physical format. Enbedding the "file" tyupe data inside of the physical > format makes the data inaccessible without special knowledge. Steve, What if you don't know what a tape you are archiving contains in the first place? What if you just want to preserve it in case someone else in the future can figure it out? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 12 18:10:11 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Lost Vector Computers to Another Start up References: Message-ID: <020701c480c1$85a93980$37406b43@66067007> It's bad luck for me in that for the last 8 months every time something really nice comes up I get beat out at the last minute (not counting the 029). I can't collect everything out there but I'm looking to get a few key items other than the everyday PCs that come my way to have in the museum collection. Yes, it's nice that other new museums and collectors start collecting computer items but also there is a limited number of rare items out there and the price sometimes goes way too high for the small guy to get anything. I did contact the museum and wished them well and told them that maybe we could work together sometimes on large or small projects in the future. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Lost Vector Computers to Another Start up > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Keys wrote: > > > A guy contacted me back on the 10th offering me a complete line of Vector > > Graphic Computers. Hardware, manuals (tech & user), and sales literature for > > all of it, free for pickup. Asked him the same day when and were could I > > pick it all up and today I get my answer back saying it's all gone to a > > startup computer museum at the UT-Arlington campus. Talk about bad luck and > > everyone here in Texas wanting to start a computer museum. > > Why is that bad luck? I see it as positive that more oragnizations are > popping up to preserve this stuff. One organization should not have > everything anyway. What if that organization has financial problems or, > worse, goes under? > > We've seen this in the past, and it is not pretty. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Aug 12 18:12:42 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <011e01c480c1$e60c3660$e636f604@VAIO> I've been following this discussion - and figured that "someone" else in the world surely must had been working on this issue. I contacted the Computer History Museum - and they pointed me to the "Dublin Core Metadata Initiative" (DCMI). This is an international organization that has been working for years in the specific area of preserving bits. BTW, they have an open source license (DCMI Open Source) on all their material. See: http://dublincore.org/about/ Also: http://dublincore.org/tools/ My suggestion would be to review carefully what's already been accomplished - and if you think that they are messing up, work with them to accomplish their objectives. Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 650-428-0621 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 17:31:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:10 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <200408090155.i791t2xS017602@mail.bcpl.net> from "J. David Bryan" at Aug 8, 4 09:54:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Aug 2004 at 22:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > > One day I must assemble the [HP 9830] terminal emulator ROM code from > > the patent.... > > You had mentioned in an earlier post the (U.S.) patent numbers for the > 9810, 9820, and 9830. Would you have a list of others related to those > units, e.g., for the ROM mentioned above? (Or is it contained in > 4,012,725; I confess that I haven't read the entire patent...being 590 > pages, it's a bit slow going! :-) The useful patents I know of for these machines are : HP9810 : US3859635 HP9820 : US3839630 HP9830 : US4012725 (or GB1444141) The ROM source I mentioned is in that 9830 patent -- as you said it's a thick document ;-). In general you get most of the system firmware and the option ROMs as source listings Do be warned that there may well be differences between the machines in the patent and the production machines. There are certainly hardware differnces, and the firmware may have changed too (so that system routines may be at other addresses, etc). But there's a heck of a lot of good stuff in those patents that will point you in the right direction if, for example, you are insane enough to want to disassemble one of the ROMs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 17:33:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <200408101540.i7AFeJki025797@mail.bcpl.net> from "J. David Bryan" at Aug 10, 4 11:40:17 am Message-ID: > The chief electrical engineer at our company in the 1980s was a fellow who > excelled at making components in his designs do two or three jobs each. > It's an artistry that HP displayed, as you indicate. A prime example of this is in GPO (UK) telephones. In things like the 706, many of the components (like capacitors) do 2 or 3 jobs! -tony From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 18:19:37 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II Message-ID: <20040812231937.37863.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> I just rescued one of these. No docs/sw. It has 2 RX50 drives, but no hard disk. It powers up to a DECMate II screen with a flashing cursor in the ULH corner. Anything interesting I can do with this to play around without a hard drive? Any floppy images I can snag (will it boot from floppy?) Thanks. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 12 18:26:34 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <20040812231937.37863.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040812231937.37863.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040812232634.GA28493@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 04:19:37PM -0700, Rich Bramante wrote: > I just rescued one of these. Nice. > No docs/sw. Not so nice. > It has 2 RX50 drives, but no hard disk. Hmm... a legitimate configuration, but not one I've ever seen. > It powers up to a > DECMate II screen with a flashing cursor in the ULH > corner. Anything interesting I can do with this to > play around without a hard drive? Not much you can do with it without some kind of boot medium. There _may_ be a terminal emulator in ROM, but I'm not positive of that; I haven't run a diskless DECmate in a long time. > Any floppy images I can snag Almost certainly there are, but I can't recall off the top of my head where you need to go. > (will it boot from floppy?) Absolutely. You might need an older machine to write out RX50 images to a diskette, though. ISTR there are problems with trying to use 5.25" drives on newer PeeCee motherboards, but that might be more of a problem with recent Microsoft operating systems, than problems with recent motherboards/chipsets. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Aug-2004 23:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.2 F (-55.7 C) Windchill -106 F (-76.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.4 kts Grid 105 Barometer 680.1 mb (10623. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 12 18:33:02 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Motorola In Circuit Emulator and similar stuff available Message-ID: <00c401c480c4$b5fe8c40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I saw this stuff at the surplus dealer today. I don't know anything about this, but it sounded/looked list stuff some here may be interested in. 1) Motorola EVB/EVM/EVS Software disk with an M68HC05EVM board 2) P&E Microsystems ICS05JPW In Circuit Simulator for Windows diskette, plus M68ICS05JP board 3) MMDS08 or MMD508 software and lots of manuals, plus M68EM08 board 4) M68EVB912B32 circuit board They had a price tag of $25 on each of the 4 items above. Each one seemed pretty complete, with lots of papers, diskettes, PLCC adapter with ribbon cable, power supplies, serial cable to hook up to host PC, etc. Anyways, thought folks might have interest. Jay From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 12 18:55:47 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II References: <20040812231937.37863.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> <20040812232634.GA28493@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <037701c480c7$e3fd6be0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 04:19:37PM -0700, Rich Bramante wrote: > > Any floppy images I can snag > > Almost certainly there are, but I can't recall off the top of my head > where you need to go. I made a nice little collection of software by copying the ones at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimages/rx50/teledisk/ onto actual floppies. Loved the games disk images there, too :-). You can also Google around for "dm1011.zip" and you'll turn up several other places where these disk images live. They are Teledisk images, so you'll need a box with 5.25" diskettes and DOS. > > (will it boot from floppy?) > > Absolutely. You might need an older machine to write out RX50 images > to a diskette, though. ISTR there are problems with trying to use > 5.25" drives on newer PeeCee motherboards, but that might be more of > a problem with recent Microsoft operating systems, than problems with > recent motherboards/chipsets. Mine has no hard disk, but I don't miss it much. The floppies hold about the same as a DECtape would have (but are much faster :-)). If you want to run FOCAL on your DECmate, I can tell you which word to patch :-). Vince From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 12 18:58:37 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Motorola In Circuit Emulator and similar stuff available In-Reply-To: <00c401c480c4$b5fe8c40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040812195541.04c8a4b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >I saw this stuff at the surplus dealer today. I don't know anything about >this, but it sounded/looked list stuff some here may be interested in. > >1) Motorola EVB/EVM/EVS Software disk with an M68HC05EVM board > >2) P&E Microsystems ICS05JPW In Circuit Simulator for Windows diskette, plus >M68ICS05JP board > >3) MMDS08 or MMD508 software and lots of manuals, plus M68EM08 board > >4) M68EVB912B32 circuit board > >They had a price tag of $25 on each of the 4 items above. Each one seemed >pretty complete, with lots of papers, diskettes, PLCC adapter with ribbon >cable, power supplies, serial cable to hook up to host PC, etc. > >Anyways, thought folks might have interest. I'm not calling "Dibs" per-se, but if no-one else is interested in them, I would be. I've just started tinkering with imbedded CPUs (atmels at the moment), so if no-one else is interested, lemme know and we can work out details for a rescue... Of course, dunno if that's actually a good price or not... maybe dickering a touch would be in order? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Aug 12 19:10:35 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: Message-ID: <010501c480ca$19527540$0200a8c0@geoff> Reminds me of the old Radio Constructor designs where the designer made one transistor do both rf and af amplification. Can't remember his name - or what he called his designs. I'm sure he was knighted or something like that .... anybody ? - Sir Alec Douglas Hall ? was it ? Sounds too much like Alec Douglas Hume ! Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) > > The chief electrical engineer at our company in the 1980s was a fellow who > > excelled at making components in his designs do two or three jobs each. > > It's an artistry that HP displayed, as you indicate. > > A prime example of this is in GPO (UK) telephones. In things like the > 706, many of the components (like capacitors) do 2 or 3 jobs! > > -tony From technobug at comcast.net Thu Aug 12 19:23:48 2004 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: PICT files In-Reply-To: <200408122234.i7CMYbbZ006315@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408122234.i7CMYbbZ006315@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0B87D6CA-ECBF-11D8-9EFE-003065B0DA30@comcast.net> On Aug 12, 2004, at 3:34 PM, cctalk-request@classiccmp.org wrote: [...rip...] > There were tools that could handle PICTs, but they puked on > the payload portion of the file. They _knew_ there was a chunk there, > but > didn't know what to do with it. > > Do you happen to know of any way to digest these files except with the > right > libraries loaded on a real Mac? > > -ethan [...too cold to even consider...] For the Mac environment get ye a copy of *Graphic Converter* shareware. Takes in about anything format-wise and will put out anything else. CRC From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Aug 12 19:29:10 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: PICT files In-Reply-To: <0B87D6CA-ECBF-11D8-9EFE-003065B0DA30@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, CRC wrote: > For the Mac environment get ye a copy of *Graphic Converter* > shareware. Takes in about > anything format-wise and will put out anything else. For UNIX-ish systems (and Win32 these days) I still use the ImageMagick toolkit for converting files.. --f From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Aug 12 20:25:33 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II Message-ID: <040812212533.17f65@splab.cas.neu.edu> I looked through my floppy library and came across three floppies that might help. They are labelled Decmate Software, copyright 1985, DM/WPS utility diskette 2.0 and DM/WPS system diskette v2.0. Don't know which version of decmate they are for, but they are 5.25 inch, not 8 inch. I don't think I'll ever need them, but maybe somebody can put them out on the web? Also, I haven't tried to read them, they may be bad, but I don't know. Joe Heck From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 12 20:48:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <005201c480ad$5bcd3850$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > My reason for mandating a CRC would be that otherwise > you have no way of knowing that an error has occurred. > An unreliable archive format is a terrible thing to > foist on future generations: they should be able to > know whether the data has been correctly preserved > or not. Without a CRC (or similar mechanism) you have > no guarantee of that. One of the advantages of storing > zip (or rar or whatever) archives on CD is that if > you can copy it off and unzip it, you can reasonably > expect the end result to be an accurate reproduction of > the original. The problem with ZIP for example is that if the archive is considerably corrupted you don't get anything. I'd rather have an archive with some corrupt data than a ZIP file that won't unzip :( But anyway, again, point taken (again). > Error correction is just an added bonus and may or may > not be worth the additional effort. Perhaps optional > additional redundancy (OpenVMS BACKUP will write a > parity block of data for every N blocks of real > data, PAR implements "RAID for newsgroups"). It should be possible to add error correcting data to the archive. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 20:50:23 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <037701c480c7$e3fd6be0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040813015023.40115.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> --- vrs wrote: > I made a nice little collection of software by > copying the ones at > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimages/rx50/teledisk/ Woo hoo. Thanks for the pointer. It's so much more interesting with software :-) Machine seems to be in pretty good shape except for some dead keys. Anyone want to field an OS278 question? For a DIR how do I specify the 2nd drive (0 vs 1)? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 12 21:23:55 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <040812212533.17f65@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <040812212533.17f65@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <20040813022355.GB10118@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 09:25:33PM -0400, trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > I looked through my floppy library and came across three floppies that > might help. > > They are labelled Decmate Software, copyright 1985, DM/WPS utility > diskette 2.0 and DM/WPS system diskette v2.0. Don't know which version of > decmate they are for, but they are 5.25 inch, not 8 inch. The PDP-8/a-based WPS systems, the VT78, and the DECmate I all used 8" disks. The DECmate II was primarily RX50 (5.25") based, but could take an option card to use 8" disks (presumably to help those customers with documents from older systems). The DECmate III and III+ only used RX50 floppies. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Aug-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.7 F (-55.4 C) Windchill -107.1 F (-77.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.8 kts Grid 115 Barometer 677.6 mb (10715. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Aug 12 21:29:37 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II Message-ID: <1a0.282c3283.2e4d8191@aol.com> > Decmate Software, copyright 1985, DM/WPS utility > diskette 2.0 and DM/WPS system diskette v2.0. Don't know which version of > decmate they are for, but they are 5.25 inch, not 8 inch. These are the basic wordprocessing which is called WPS and should work on the Decmate II and III. Since the RX50s held 400K on each floppy they were fine for wordprocessing and two RX50s was a common configuration. You could keep DM/WPS in drive A, the Utility disk or another in Drive B and Data disks in C and D. CPM was an option with a piggyback processing card as was a hard drive. Neither are commonly found in Decmate IIs Paxton Astoria, OR From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 12 21:36:38 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <20040813015023.40115.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> References: <037701c480c7$e3fd6be0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <20040813015023.40115.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040813023638.GC10118@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 06:50:23PM -0700, Rich Bramante wrote: > > I made a nice little collection of software by > > copying the ones at > > > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimages/rx50/teledisk/ > > Woo hoo. Thanks for the pointer. It's so much more > interesting with software :-) Yep. > Machine seems to be in pretty good shape except for > some dead keys. That's just a standard LK201... borrow one from a Rainbow, a Pro 3xx, a VT220, VT240... They aren't as easy to find as they used to be, but a replacement shouldn't be expensive. > Anyone want to field an OS278 question? For a DIR how > do I specify the 2nd drive (0 vs 1)? In general, OS/8 (OS/278) devices are 4 chars... 2 chars for driver name, one for controller letter, and one for device number... With the exception of the RL01 driver (RL8A, and perhaps the one for the DECmate I)*, it's of the form 'DDcu:', so depending on the name of the driver for the RX50, it might be RXA1: I just can't remember off the top of my head what the driver is named. RESORC will help you out. Since my DECmate II has an RD31 in it, I've never given one a spin with dual RX50, so I'm not sure if your second unit will show up as, say RXA2: and RXA3:, or RXB0: and RXB1: Perhaps there's someone here who knows. Hour for hour, nearly all of my OS/8 experience is with OMNIBUS machines (but I'm rapidly building lots of time with my SBC-6120). -ethan * For perfectly logical reasons, even though it breaks with convention, the RL01 units are RL0A:, RL0B:, RL0C: for the three partitions of the pack in drive unit 0. -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Aug-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.7 F (-55.4 C) Windchill -107.1 F (-77.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.8 kts Grid 115 Barometer 677.6 mb (10715. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 12 21:29:26 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: archive file format exmaple In-Reply-To: References: <1102402.1092319076530.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040812212802.04dbe5c0@pc> At 04:59 PM 8/12/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >What if you don't know what a tape you are archiving contains in the first >place? What if you just want to preserve it in case someone else in the >future can figure it out? A great point. I am reminded of the layers of TCP/IP. It also reminds me of recording entire filesystems. Will someday someone want to be able to drop into an emulation of what a typical PC environment was like back in '94, '96, '98, '04? We not only want to preserve floppies but hard drives and all the files on them... - John From tyger69 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 12 21:44:30 2004 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: rarest computers Message-ID: <001b01c480df$77221080$0300a8c0@cablemodem> Are we counting one-off homebrews, or just production models. Surely a one-of-a-kind would have to be the rarest kind of all. --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! --Timothy Leary From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 12 21:54:12 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard References: Message-ID: <000a01c480e0$d082f710$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: RE: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > My reason for mandating a CRC would be that otherwise > > you have no way of knowing that an error has occurred. > > An unreliable archive format is a terrible thing to > > foist on future generations: they should be able to > > know whether the data has been correctly preserved > > or not. Without a CRC (or similar mechanism) you have > > no guarantee of that. One of the advantages of storing > > zip (or rar or whatever) archives on CD is that if > > you can copy it off and unzip it, you can reasonably > > expect the end result to be an accurate reproduction of > > the original. > > The problem with ZIP for example is that if the archive is considerably > corrupted you don't get anything. I'd rather have an archive with some > corrupt data than a ZIP file that won't unzip :( > > But anyway, again, point taken (again). > > > Error correction is just an added bonus and may or may > > not be worth the additional effort. Perhaps optional > > additional redundancy (OpenVMS BACKUP will write a > > parity block of data for every N blocks of real > > data, PAR implements "RAID for newsgroups"). > > It should be possible to add error correcting data to the archive. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival SmartPAR works very well for completing missing files (very popular in newsgroups). You are much better off using a system that is already used by others then making one up as you go since the odds are a common recovery method would survive longer. From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 22:06:17 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <20040813023638.GC10118@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040813030617.87527.qmail@web21523.mail.yahoo.com> > Anyone want to field an OS278 question? For a DIR > how do I specify the 2nd drive (0 vs 1)? Turns out RX51: did the trick (thanks Vince). rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 12 23:21:20 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: New list for media archive info... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040813000938.04e94110@mail.30below.com> Just to let you know, I've created a mailing list so we can offload the discussion of the media archive format/specification jazz... The mailto: address is: ccarchive@list.30below.com For anyone who's familiar with the qmail/ezmlm-idx combo, you'll know what to do... ;-) For those who are not, here's how to sub/unsub to/from the list: To subscribe, send an empty email to: ccarchive-subscribe@list.30below.com you will receive a confirmation message, just click reply and send. To unsubscribe, send an empty email to: ccarchive-unsubscribe@list.30below.com you will receive a confirmation message, just click reply and send. To read the list FAQ (which has not yet been modified from the default -- I'm working on it), send an empty email to: ccarchive-faq@list.30below.com you will receive a reply message with the FAQ. For general list function help, send an empty email to: ccarchive-help@list.30below.com you will receive a much more detailed email listing more of the list-server's features (including retrieving emails from the archive & other things) If you have any questions, you can email Sellam or myself -- I have also aliased the email address: ccarchive-owner@list.30below.com to go to my main email address, so you can use that as well. The list is being archived, but on our mailserver which is not currently running a webserver daemon. Until I work out email-address munging (should take a week, maybe less) web-based retrieval/viewing of the messages won't be possible. Mailing list retrieval functions will be, however. Laterz! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 01:01:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <011e01c480c1$e60c3660$e636f604@VAIO> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I've been following this discussion - and figured that "someone" else in the > world surely must had been working on this issue. I contacted the Computer > History Museum - and they pointed me to the "Dublin Core Metadata > Initiative" (DCMI). This is an international organization that has been > working for years in the specific area of preserving bits. BTW, they have > an open source license (DCMI Open Source) on all their material. > > See: http://dublincore.org/about/ > Also: http://dublincore.org/tools/ > > My suggestion would be to review carefully what's already been > accomplished - and if you think that they are messing up, work with them to > accomplish their objectives. Dublin Core is mainly a project to catalogue information (think library indexing). I can see the project we're discussing fitting into their objectives at some level, but we are not duplicating any effort there. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 01:07:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <000a01c480e0$d082f710$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Error correction is just an added bonus and may or may > > > not be worth the additional effort. Perhaps optional > > > additional redundancy (OpenVMS BACKUP will write a > > > parity block of data for every N blocks of real > > > data, PAR implements "RAID for newsgroups"). > > > > It should be possible to add error correcting data to the archive. > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > You are much better off using a system that is already used by others then > making one up as you go since the odds are a common recovery method would > survive longer. I have no intention to have anyone invent new wheels for this project. All algorithms used within the spec should be reliable, proven, aged ones that are in wide use and widely understood, implemented, and documented. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 01:11:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Moving Image Archive Standard discussion to new mailing list Message-ID: I'm officially moving this discussion to the new mailing list Roger just set up for it. The mailto: address is: ccarchive@list.30below.com For anyone who's familiar with the qmail/ezmlm-idx combo, you'll know what to do... ;-) For those who are not, here's how to sub/unsub to/from the list: To subscribe, send an empty email to: ccarchive-subscribe@list.30below.com you will receive a confirmation message, just click reply and send. To unsubscribe, send an empty email to: ccarchive-unsubscribe@list.30below.com you will receive a confirmation message, just click reply and send. I'll be taking a day or so to re-cap all the messages I've saved, taking the highlights and condensing them into a set of notes, and then posting a message to start off more formal discussions of the project. I'll also create a web page from the VCF website that contains a spec-in-progress for people to review and comment on. I hope to see a lot of people joining in! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hansp at citem.org Fri Aug 13 02:12:09 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <411C69C9.7020807@citem.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have no intention to have anyone invent new wheels for this project. > All algorithms used within the spec should be reliable, proven, aged ones > that are in wide use and widely understood, implemented, and documented. And unencumbered by patents or other IP restrictions ;-) -- HansP From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 13 04:34:42 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "He shoots... he scores!" (Aug 12, 12:05) References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> Message-ID: <10408131034.ZM17642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 12 2004, 12:05, Jay West wrote: > Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) > > I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same as LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled "differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... Adaptec 2940? No, older "differential" is not the same as Low-Voltage Differential. It's often referred to as HVD (though that term didn't appear until later, once LVD entered the scene). LVD devices can (almost always) work with single-ended controllers, because it's supposed to recognise the Diffsense signal (grounded for SE) -- hence you often see labels "LVD/SE" -- but the same is *not* true for HVD. Connecting HVD to LVD or SE won't work, and may let out the Magic Smoke forkm either or both devices. 2940 is SE or LVD; the HVD equivalent is 2944 (3944 is also HVD). There are a few on Ebay right now. I just bought one; I have a similar problem. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 13 04:47:35 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "RE: TKQ50 proms" (Aug 12, 20:23) References: <000801c480a1$da78b410$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <10408131047.ZM17683@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 12 2004, 20:23, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > > I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a > > TQK50 controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. > > Can anyone help? > > Yep, I'm sure we've got a TQK50 on the shelves in stores; I can pull it > and dump the ROMs for you. Thanks, but I've now got several copies of both sets of TQK50 ROMs (23-248E5/23-249E5 and 23-330E5/23-331E5). I did mail the list to say I had them now, but perhaps it got lost amongst the archive messages :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Aug 13 05:21:00 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> References: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <411C960C.4010907@gifford.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities and aside from the > volunteers I suspect they don't have the interest either. How about the new computer museum at Swindon? http://www.digitalhistory.org.uk/index.php > I don't know > what your budget is but the Fairfield Halls in Croydon, London was where > we had the CGE-UK the other week and that was a good venue for VCF type > events. I mentioned the VCF to my old PhD supervisor at the University of the West of England (in Bristol) and he was keen on the idea. He even suggested the use of UWE facilities for such an event. But we don't have a great deal of genuine home-grown computer heritage here, apart from INMOS. We do have a Concorde museum opening in the next week or two, though. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 13 06:37:49 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Searching for SunOS 4.1.3 Message-ID: >I am looking for a copy of SunOS 4.1.3, preferably version C. Your wish is my command: http://www.corestore.org/solaris1.1.2.zip Download, unzip, burn the enclosed ISO image. Bootable CD. I (and some of my Xerox Buddies) had exactly the same problem trying to ressurect Xerox GVX - the Xerox Mesa/Viewpoint emulator (in effect) for X. Wanted a very particular version of SunOS (think it also runs on AIX but don't quote me on that). (If anyone wants to play with this stuff, you can also grab http://www.corestore.org/GVXv1_0.zip - or http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip for the M$ windoze version - win 9x *only*) Mike http://www.corestore.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 13 07:05:19 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> References: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <1092398719.12178.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 19:15, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > > Computer Festival > > Sent: 08 August 2004 21:53 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > > Eventually. I was speaking with some folks at Bletchly Park > > a few years ago but that never went anywhere. > > > > Perhaps we can try again? > > Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities Not true there - there are plenty of conference rooms and halls within the mansion, and the resteraunt / bar facilities. The problem lies with the management seemingly indifferent to actually making any money from hiring out the facilities, except to the odd wedding. (I wonder if the cinema with the vintage equipment in is available too? Classic computer movies on classic equipment... :) > and aside from the > volunteers I suspect they don't have the interest either. Exactly. What a waste, huh? > I don't know what your budget is but the Fairfield Halls > in Croydon, London was where we had the CGE-UK the other week > and that was a good venue for VCF type events. Indeed it was. It was quite an expensive venue for the weekend though. The Science Museum presumably have conference halls and the like for hire, but again being in London it's likely to be expensive... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 13 07:13:39 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092399219.12178.52.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 21:22, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'd strongly recommend doing exactly that. Keep the data seperate from > > the metadata describing it. Mixing the two really detracts from the > > human readability aspect for starters - browsing a file with nicely > > formatted structured data peppered with streams of encoded media data > > (whether hex pairs, base64 or whatever) would give me a headache :-) > > Are you really going to be spending much time rummaging through image > files, as a hobby or something? Nope, just thinking of the fact that this is designed to be as human-readable as possible. Future archivists *are* likely to be rummaging through archive files. Embedding encoded data within the metadata information detracts from that quite severely, as well as forcing the encoded data to be in a form such that it *can* be embedded within whatever markup language is used. On readability and flexibility grounds it seems sensible to move the data outside of the metadata area (e.g. in Steve's example, outside of the tags). Note that doing that doesn't mean that the data can't be defined using the same markup langauge used for the metadata information; in fact in most scenarios this would likely still be the case. Apologies for the cc - I expect many of us interested in this will take a few more hourse before they're subscribed to the new list. cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 13 07:17:18 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <411C960C.4010907@gifford.co.uk> References: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> <411C960C.4010907@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <1092399437.12178.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-13 at 10:21, John Honniball wrote: > Witchy wrote: > > Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities and aside from the > > volunteers I suspect they don't have the interest either. > > How about the new computer museum at Swindon? > > http://www.digitalhistory.org.uk/index.php Far as I know, they don't have the room to swing a cat there :-( > But we don't > have a great deal of genuine home-grown computer heritage here, > apart from INMOS. We do have a Concorde museum opening in the > next week or two, though. Hmm, I'll have to check that one out :-) cheers Jules From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Aug 13 07:21:23 2004 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... Message-ID: <0I2D00M5OWZLNA@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Aladdin 4D is now on ebay (with source and full rights): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2992&item=3693574489& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW I contacted the guy asking about the transputer port (the Amiga Warp boards) but he only said it was a contracted item. Also asked who did the port so that I could contact them, but he wouldn't say. Anyone here know???? Thanks, Ram From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 08:31:30 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <4BFD01171074D14E808A8D5AC5CB4B820B14E9@EXCHANGE> Message-ID: <411CDED2.24683.144747C6@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 13:48 meinte Bigum, Henrik: > But what you had in your hand was a excellent machine, with no comparison at > that time, think about running multitasking on an 80186 platform, no one > else, as far I know, has done that. Well, the Siemens PC-X Unix Workstation was a 186 :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 08:45:14 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040812122452.S38647@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408120813.JAA06694@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <411CE20A.9580.1453D95D@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 12:40 meinte Fred Cisin: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: > > > BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? > > Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed > > a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. > > Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device > > though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! > Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"? > Many years ago, I attended a presentation about a holographic > system the "could store" MANY gigabytes per cc. The phrase > "can store" was used a lot. When asked about current progress, > they were VERY evasive. After about a dozen questions, they > admitted that they had not yet achieved the multi-gigabyte > capacity. After many more questions, they finally admitted > that the current capacity was 27 bits. It is a good proof of > concept, but the differentiation between projection and > accomplishment is significant. > 'course by now, they very well might have reached the > capacity goals. Well, as it looks, the Stuttgart people already store (and retrive) a terrabyte (1000 Gig) in a 1 cm^3 cube. So the scale might be right. > Similarly there is a proponent of alternate fuel vehicles who > is constantly quoting specs that include impressive results. > He is very evasive about timeframe of availability. > But it turns out that his vehicle is NOT in production. > There isn't even a prototype! His "data" is all results > of "simulations", and many of his "can do" numbers require > a complete restructure of society. Even when explicity > challenged, he adamently refuses to acknowledge a difference > between possibilities and existence. *G* I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid, but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :( Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 13 09:11:40 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <1092398719.12178.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <000501c480a0$cb400670$6401a8c0@Beovax.Local> <1092398719.12178.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <0525d9dd4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1092398719.12178.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed it was. It was quite an expensive venue for the weekend though. > The Science Museum presumably have conference halls and the like for > hire, but again being in London it's likely to be expensive... There's the venue that the Wakefield RISC OS Computer Club usually use for the yearly Wakefield RISC OS shows - Thornes Park Athletics Stadium in Wakefield, West Yorkshire. WROCC usually rent most of the ground floor (indoor athletics track) and use a room on the top floor for catering - it seems to work for them but I'm not sure about room sizes and such - I just attent the events :) Then there's the Birmingham Motorcycle Museum (ISTR the ARM Club do their computer shows there), though I'm not sure if they've finished rebuilding yet. If there is a VCF or similar event in the North of England (i.e. within an hour's drive of Leeds), I'd be very tempted to attend. I was thinking about going to CGE-UK, but a rail ticket from Leeds to London isn't exactly cheap. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 10:05:44 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Charset/CCDD (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive In-Reply-To: <20040812201053.AC42F109AD00@swift.conman.org> References: <411B956A.18107.F40887C@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 12, 2004 04:06:02 PM Message-ID: <411CF4E8.14385.149D8D29@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 16:10 meinte Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner: > It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > Rather then restricting the encodeing of the XML file to a > > specific charset, we need to restrict the USAGE within the > > standard to certain characters, regardless of the encodeing. > Unless otherwise noted, XML files are assumed to be encoded in UTF-8, Except that this is not realy followed by any parser - all I found assume ISO 8859-1 or some other stuff, but produce UTF-8. > *but* an XML parser is required to abort at the first error in the XML file. > If a parser is reading an XML file without an explicit character set > encoding scheme (which means it's assuming UTF-8) and it reads a character > that is illegal (say the file was encoded in ISO-8859-3) it gives up > (usually with an "illegal character at such-n-such position" error). Not necersarry, if the parser accepts 8 Bit input, it just takes the charactes as is - a X'C3' ist just seen as that, no matter if it's 8859-1 or -3 or whatever. Now if he expects UTF-8, then still X'C3' is a valid first character of a two character sequence. Only if the next doesn't start with B'10' (read X'80'..X'BF'), an error will occure. Quite likely if you look at some langiuage encodeings. I had whole 8 Bit russian files sliping thru UTF-8 parsers without illegal character errors. > Right now, this is a real problem with XML deployment (it gets even > wierder when XML files are transported via HTTP but I'm getting ahead of > myself) so when I suggested that (if we are using XML) that each *must* > start with: > > It was a way of self-defense. Perhaps it can be relaxed some and require: > > and if the encoding scheme isn't defined, it's an error and further > processing of the archive should stop. Basicly I fully support your motion here ... if we would live in a binary world. A world where for one thing any Parser can parse any character set, and where all files are always transported in binary mode. But we don't. If I generate a file on a EBCDIC system, and transfer it to a Unix system, the file transfer will convert the characterset from the EBCDIC variation I use to the ASCII variant on the target system - if I included an 'encodeing="EBCDIC"' in the ?XML line, it suddenly would be 100% wrong. Now what? Includeing the encodeing _within_ the file as part of the data is in my opinion the only real flaw in the basic XML definition (if we ignore all that rubish of namespaces etc.). The carset of a text file is always a meta information which should never (only) be part of the application specific data within the file. The whole XML part works only by assumeing that the encodeing is at least done with something that is compatible to the systems default code, otherwise the parser couldn't even find the > I suggest to restrict the caracters used in tags, attribute > > names and attributes to 'A-Z' (uppercase), '0-9' and '-'. > Unfortunately, XML is defined with lowercase (or it may be case > sensitive---I do know that all XML I've seen is with lowercase tags, and > it's pretty much a standard). No, XML is case sensitive, not lower case or whatever. In fact, you can use all characters you may find to define tags or atributes. One could for example use German Umlauts within tags, or even so all tags in Kanji or arabic. So for our definition we can prety much stay with all upercase tags, attribute names and attributes. I strongly recommend this to allow the usage of our format on systems/charsets that offer only uppercase latin letters. This is not only true for old Russian or Japaneese 8 Bit systems, even the good old Apple ][+ had only uppercase ! Beside that, uppercase is, to me, way more readable as keywords. decideing for lowercase was one of the many bad ideas in XHTML. Oh, and at least that part the XML people did get right, since it is defined, that the leading ?XML may be upper or lower case. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 10:52:37 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Dublin Core (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard) In-Reply-To: <011e01c480c1$e60c3660$e636f604@VAIO> Message-ID: <411CFFE5.13997.14C8771F@localhost> Am 12 Aug 2004 16:12 meinte Lyle Bickley: > I've been following this discussion - and figured that "someone" else in the > world surely must had been working on this issue. I contacted the Computer > History Museum - and they pointed me to the "Dublin Core Metadata > Initiative" (DCMI). This is an international organization that has been > working for years in the specific area of preserving bits. BTW, they have > an open source license (DCMI Open Source) on all their material. > See: http://dublincore.org/about/ > Also: http://dublincore.org/tools/ > My suggestion would be to review carefully what's already been > accomplished - and if you think that they are messing up, work with them to > accomplish their objectives. Jup, the DC part is quite comprehensive and the de facto standard when it comes to meta data about various collections. Still, their concern is meta information, and not the data itself. Also DC is a quite complex definition by now. In my opinion DC is not realy usable for our purpose as a way to store classic media, but beside that, DC is not only intended as a stand allone solution, but also from the beginning designed as an add on to be included in other formats. Up to now I couldn't find any real necersary information to be included beside an identifyer for the computer and operateing system here the media is origninated. I still see no other essential one needed for some general sections. And exactly here fits DC - If we use the DC syntag within a META tag for any kind of additional descriptive information, we can use all the advantages of DC (and the work done there) within our definiton. So le't encode everything from date and version info, names and authors be included via DC. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 13 11:10:33 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411C69C9.7020807@citem.org> References: <411C69C9.7020807@citem.org> Message-ID: <200408131611.MAA26767@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> All algorithms used within the spec should be reliable, proven, aged >> ones that are in wide use and widely understood, implemented, and >> documented. > And unencumbered by patents or other IP restrictions ;-) ...in what jurisdiction(s)? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 13 11:59:36 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... In-Reply-To: <0I2D00M5OWZLNA@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I2D00M5OWZLNA@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040813105935.05e03448@pc> At 07:21 AM 8/13/2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >Aladdin 4D is now on ebay (with source and full rights): >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2992&item=3693574489& >rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Kermit's a nice reliable guy and Alladin 4D a reasonable product in its day, but $35K? A number of Amiga companies with nice products fire-saled for much less than that, many years ago. I think I remember bidding on a fire sale or two. My plan was to sell CDs of the entire product lines with source code. A number of these businesses never found buyers - and then what? All that code starts to rot. Knowledge of the development environment disappears. I had a number of friends whose small-time Amiga software businesses just faded painfully and slowly. The time to port was nine years ago. If there's any hope to squeeze money out of old code like this, I believe it is in releasing the code so others can enhance it, and the original developer hangs around hoping for contract-work to adapt it to other uses. Not necessarily complete surrender via open source, but let other eyeballs savor it. Porting to a new OS and GUI can take a long time. Even if someone bought it for $35K, they'd need to expend at least a similar amount in time and effort (if not salary). Even at $0 buying price, someone would need to spend the equivalent of another $35K in terms of a lot of time and effort to develop a port. In my own case, in 1992 or so I knew that a Windows or Unix port was the only way to salvation outside the Amiga market. I had to wait until 1995 for Win32s to make it possible, although I'd tried other 32-bit extenders. And by 1997, the threat of licensing my entire 350K-line, five-platform source code tree at $70K a pop was one of the reasons that my company was bought-out. The buyer didn't want other companies to get it. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 13 12:12:32 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <010501c480ca$19527540$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <411CF680.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Reminds me of the old Radio Constructor designs where the designer made one > transistor do both rf and af amplification. > Can't remember his name - or what he called his designs. > I'm sure he was knighted or something like that .... anybody ? > - Sir Alec Douglas Hall ? was it ? > Sounds too much like Alec Douglas Hume ! I have no idea who invented it since it was used every where, since the humble vacume tube ( valve) was invented. You can still buy or build them today. http://www.vcomp.co.uk/one_tube_1935/one_tube_1935.htm http://schmarder.com/radios/tube/index.htm Ben. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 13 12:37:33 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics,troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <20040813173731.XCHV26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Ethan, Thanks again for the very useful information. I've had some success - but now have more questions than answers. Reminder: This SuperPET 9000 has been stripped to just the 6502 board. On power-up it init's screen (can see garbage, then clear), plays the "bee-dle-bee-dle-bee-dle" startup noise, then hangs with the blank screen (never displays basic startup message). Some experimentation suggests the it continues to run code at this point (ie: is hung waiting for something), however this is by no means certain. I hunted around funet and found the Basic4 ROM disassembly - as far as I can tell, it exactly matches the ROMs in this PET. Looking at the startup code ($FD16), and the schematic, I was able to identify the diagnostic input signal (Pin 5 of user port), and when held low, it DOES startup in the monitor (Took me a long time to figure out the commands - especially the fact that you need TWO spaces after ':' to write to memory). Now is where things get interesting. The monitor always starts up, and the 'R' always works, however 'M' to display memory causes it to crash about 80% of the time - however if it works, it is reliable, and 'M' will continue to work until the next time I restart the machine. Even 'M xxxx' (no second address which normally never outputs anything anyway) will fail. Depending on the value of 'xxxx', it will either crash (hang), or more often re-enter the monitor with 'B*' indicating it thinks a breakpoint went off (not suprising if the stack is corrupt - read on). At first I thought this might be an indication of bad RAM (still might be), however after playing with it for a while, I noticed that the SP in the register display is always '01', '03' or some low value when it doesn't work - I'm guessing the monitor tries to locate it's stack below here and it wraps) - sometimes SP shows up as FF or FE, and then all works fine. I have no idea how this is (not) getting initialized on power-up entry to the monitor through the diag signal (any idea)? Once it "works", I can read and write RAM and it appears to be holding the values (although by no means an exhaustive test). Another thing I don't understand yet: When powered-up with diag held low, the system goes directly into the monitor ($D472), and DOES NOT play the "bee-dle-bee-dle..." startup noise. This indicates that this noise should be generated by entry into BASIC ($D3B6). Looking at this code, it sets up a few location in zero pages, and then output the startup message (no other subs are called in between) - I see nothing which would generate the "noise" - so one would think it is being generated AFTER the startup message, however ... When I start the machine with DIAG high (normal), I see screenful of garbage (briefly) and then it clears, then the "noise" plays - no message comes out, but I know the screen is working. Referring to the working machine, it is clear that the "noise" finishes BEFORE the text comes out, however I don't see where it could be generated. The only function called before the message is output is $E000 to setup the I/O, however it is called before DIAG is tested (ie: even if entering the monitor), and the noise is not heard in this case... By using a reset switch, I was able (after several attempts) to bring the machine up from power off in "normal" mode, and then pull DIAG low and reset to enter the monitor and examine the RAM - comparing the values in ZPAGE to those written by the BASIC init code, I can confirm that the code just before the message is output is in fact executing... Any further ideas? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 12:45:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <411C960C.4010907@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, John Honniball wrote: > Witchy wrote: > > Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities and aside from the > > volunteers I suspect they don't have the interest either. > > How about the new computer museum at Swindon? > > http://www.digitalhistory.org.uk/index.php "The Museum does not intend to own a collection of exhibits. Its function will be to act as a showcase for outside exhibitors." Sounds like a good venue for the VCF to me! :) > I mentioned the VCF to my old PhD supervisor at the University of the > West of England (in Bristol) and he was keen on the idea. He even > suggested the use of UWE facilities for such an event. But we don't > have a great deal of genuine home-grown computer heritage here, > apart from INMOS. We do have a Concorde museum opening in the > next week or two, though. I'm currently investigating possibilities in the UK, so please do check into it for me. What I'd need to know right off is what, if any, fees would be required to rent the required space, and how much those fees are. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 12:48:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411CE20A.9580.1453D95D@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a > hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel > engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if > not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid, > but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :( You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 12:58:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > > I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a > > hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel > > engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if > > not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid, > > but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :( > > You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers! I mean, you *could*! Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff, rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 13 12:48:29 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:05:19 -0000." <1092398719.12178.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200408131748.SAA31123@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > (I wonder if the cinema with the vintage equipment in is available too? > Classic computer movies on classic equipment... :) It would be interesting to know what audio equipment is intalled there. I remeber repairing a 1930s ex-cinema audio amp that was still being used as a social club pa in the late '60s. IIRC a pair of PX25s in the output for about 25 Watts, enough for bingo calling, but not much else. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 12 15:20:11 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:51:25 MDT." <411BCA3D.5040908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ben franchuk said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > > Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed > > a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. > > Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device > > though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! > > What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :) > > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 12 15:16:36 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:11 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:40:23 PDT." <20040812122452.S38647@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200408122016.VAA20130@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Fred Cisin said: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: > > > BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow? > > Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed > > a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material. > > Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device > > though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! > > Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"? A good question that had me searching through magazines to find the article where I read about it. It was in "New Scientist" 31 July. It says "can store". Re-reading the article it seems it may not be holographic but it uses "..a red laser with a wavelentgh of 79 nm in a way that controls the shape and spacing of individual bits, providing clear spacing between them. It is then read using UV light from a helium-neon laser..". How much data they've *actually* stored in the device is not mentioned. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 13:12:08 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <411D2098.9691.15483303@localhost> Am 13 Aug 2004 10:58 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a > > > hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel > > > engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if > > > not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid, > > > but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :( > > > > You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers! > > I mean, you *could*! > > Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff, > rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :) Well, define good stuff. When we meet Alah at the happy hunting grounds, no Mercedes nor Computer will be with me ... so it's just a temporary burden ... and good or not is in the eye of the beholder :) H. BTW: My Mother always drives a Mercedes, so why do I need one? -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 13 13:14:32 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040813141102.00af7020@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a > > > hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel > > > engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if > > > not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid, > > > but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :( > > > > You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers! > >I mean, you *could*! > >Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff, >rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :) Doubtful -- I would think she would have taught him to save his Pfennigs instead. ;-) What are they called now? "Hundredths of a Euro?" or do you just say "komma null eins euro?" Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when real coins had real names... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 13 13:27:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <200408131827.LAA03126@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > ---snip--- > >Any further ideas? Hi Dave It still sounds like a RAM related issue. The 6502's needed to gate the VMA with Phase2 ( as I recall ) to get clean address selects. You might put a scope on this circuit and make sure it looks like it is working well. You should try to create a more exhaustive RAM test. Although, time consuming, GALPAT is just about the most intensive. Dwight > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:43:55 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: References: <411C960C.4010907@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040813193442.05868260@pop.freeserve.net> At 18:45 13/08/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I'm currently investigating possibilities in the UK, so please do check >into it for me. What I'd need to know right off is what, if any, fees >would be required to rent the required space, and how much those fees are. > >Thanks! Well I can offer a scout hut in Manchester, but I suspect it'd be a tad small ! lol. Never having been to any VCF - hell, I didn't even know anybody collected old kit seriously, until recently, what is the sort of size venue these things need? I've been to the occasional event at George Carnell L/C and it seems a reasonable size. South Manchester, right on the motorway: No idea on costs, but contact info here: http://www.trafford.gov.uk/cme/live/welcome.asp?id=452 There are plenty of local sports halls around too. I could probably dig out a few details on some from the locality from when I had a hand in running a couple of local dog shows. Rob From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 13 13:49:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) Message-ID: <200408131849.LAA03195@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "ben franchuk" > >Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> Reminds me of the old Radio Constructor designs where the designer made one >> transistor do both rf and af amplification. >> Can't remember his name - or what he called his designs. >> I'm sure he was knighted or something like that .... anybody ? >> - Sir Alec Douglas Hall ? was it ? >> Sounds too much like Alec Douglas Hume ! > >I have no idea who invented it since it was used every where, since the >humble >vacume tube ( valve) was invented. You can still buy or build them today. > >http://www.vcomp.co.uk/one_tube_1935/one_tube_1935.htm >http://schmarder.com/radios/tube/index.htm >Ben. > > Hi The circuit is called a reflex circuit. The second web page above shows a tube reflex circuit. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 13 14:00:23 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: ASR-33....its alive (sort of) In-Reply-To: <200408131827.LAA03126@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: To those who have been following my restoral of an ASR-33 [the h-plate horror], it is finally working in reasonable order The main items are: 1) need a new rubber for the sriker before I destroy the head (and sources...a "like new" head would also be great.. 2) Ribbon(s) 3) Some key "sticky". Not too bad, about the condition of the machines I worked on in the 70's 4) Likage for "HereIs" not there (the little white plastic paddle). 5) Getting "On-Line" working...Need either 20mA loopback and/or 20mA/RS-232 converter It is always progress..... Also I am going a rescue of some items tomorrow. Most of the lot is spoken for, but any extra items will be posted on the list for sale...items which do not move there will be transferred to ePAy after a reasonable period (as defined by me) to help recover the cost of the rescue. David. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Aug 13 13:55:40 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > ben franchuk said: >> Stan Barr wrote: >> >>> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed [snippage] >> >> What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :) >> >> > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) No need to imagine - Calculate: Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format, then each character is a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly advanced optical device running at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute. 2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12 so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB /60 = 27,777,777.8 hours /24 = 1,157,407.41 days /365 = 3171 years presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate that long w/out any maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a couple of these on his Shelves. NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a 3/4-inch hub with a punch width of .060 and an inter-character width of .060 makes a diameter of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry. But damn! that would be an impressive wheel of paper!!!! Cheers John From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 13:55:59 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040813141102.00af7020@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> Am 13 Aug 2004 14:14 meinte Roger Merchberger: > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: > >On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a > > > > hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel > > > > engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if > > > > not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid, > > > > but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :( > > > You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers! > >I mean, you *could*! > >Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff, > >rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :) > Doubtful -- I would think she would have taught him to save his Pfennigs > instead. *G* Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist den Thaler nicht wert. (He who doesn't honor the Pfennig isn't woth a Thaler - Thaler is an old german currency, some 300 years ago ... in fact the Dollar is taken from that:) > What are they called now? "Hundredths of a Euro?" or do you just say "komma > null eins euro?" No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no sound to it. > Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when real coins had real names... Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin names, both are well known in all European languages (Franken, Franc, Franks / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) and even more, since these names are well known from the past, the people would easy accept it. But no, Weigel, to my shame a Bavarian (I think the beeing a politician removes all common sense), had to come up with the stupis name Euro. But then again, who cares, as long as I get nice computers for this funny paper, I'm fine. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 13:55:59 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040813193442.05868260@pop.freeserve.net> References: Message-ID: <411D2ADF.19985.15705AFB@localhost> Am 13 Aug 2004 19:43 meinte Rob O'Donnell: > At 18:45 13/08/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I'm currently investigating possibilities in the UK, so please do check > >into it for me. What I'd need to know right off is what, if any, fees > >would be required to rent the required space, and how much those fees are. > Well I can offer a scout hut in Manchester, but I suspect it'd be a tad > small ! lol. *G* we could do a VCF restricted only to portable machines, not bigger than let'S say a KIM *G* > There are plenty of local sports halls around too. I could probably dig > out a few details on some from the locality from when I had a hand in > running a couple of local dog shows. Manchester? Huh, have't been ther for since the tramway reopened. Not London, but maybe not a bad idea. It all depends on the space vs. cost ratio, and Manchester might be more likely in the reasonable area than London. What realy would be could would be Blackpool, but I guess the hotels there charge real money. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Aug 13 13:59:58 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: ASR-33....its alive (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > To those who have been following my restoral of an ASR-33 [the h-plate > horror], it is finally working in reasonable order > > The main items are: > > 1) need a new rubber for the sriker before I destroy the head (and > sources...a "like new" head would also be great.. While the actual Teletype-issue striker might be problematic to find, many of us (and others on the Greenkeys list) have had good luck using one of those small rubber feet with the adhesive on the back (one commercial brand is 'BumpOn').... just clean the hammer pad and stick on one of the 3/8" round or square feet - problem solved. I've done this myself and the rig is, to the best of my knowledge, still in service five years later. Cheers John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 13 14:11:59 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> References: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> Message-ID: <200408131924.PAA27970@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> What are they called now? "Hundredths of a Euro?" or do you just say >> "komma null eins euro?" > No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no sound to it. I agree. Totally centsless. No, that's not quite right.... >> Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when real coins had real names... > Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin names, > both are well known in all European languages (Franken, Franc, Franks > / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) "All European languages"? Danish? Finnish? Polish? Slovenian? English, for that matter? There isn't much of anything left as far as I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least not in the North American dialect. > (I think the beeing a politician removes all common sense), I think it's more the other way around: one does not become a politician unless one is already rather lacking. > had to come up with the stupis name Euro. Like the currency itself, I suspect it's largely a political compromise. > But then again, who cares, as long as I get nice computers for this > funny paper, I'm fine. There _is_ that. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 14:27:06 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard ) In-Reply-To: References: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <411D322A.30270.158CD60F@localhost> Am 13 Aug 2004 14:55 meinte John Lawson: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: > > Hi, > > ben franchuk said: > >> Stan Barr wrote: > >>> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed > [snippage] > >> What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :) > > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read > > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) > No need to imagine - Calculate: > Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format, then each character is > a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly advanced optical device running > at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute. > 2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12 > so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB > /60 = 27,777,777.8 hours > /24 = 1,157,407.41 days > /365 = 3171 years > presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate that long w/out any > maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a couple of these on his > Shelves. > NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a 3/4-inch hub with a > punch width of .060 and an inter-character width of .060 makes a diameter > of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry. > But damn! that would be an impressive wheel of paper!!!! Nowwaitaminute.... Impressive Paper roll? that reminds me of news paper printing, and AFAIR they use speeds of above 40 km/h (25 mph) at at the press in one newspaper here in Munich (Sueddeutsche Zeitung)... With way less quality paper than paper tape used to be. Now .. let's for now assume a bit hole is about 1 mm in diameter, and the gap between is of equal size, thus one byte every 2mm. now, assumeing a speed of 40 km/h this gives 40,000,000/2 Bytes/h or 20 MByte/h transfer rate (or with around 333 KByte/min or 5 k/s almost 300 times the speed you assumed). The problem is still the paper transport, not optical sensing, since even an 8 Bit controler is be able to shovel awy the data. 2*10^12/2*10^7 ... gee that's easy to cancel down ... 1*10^5 hours or just about 14 Month Hey, that's fast! Average access time of just 7 Month - large enough paper roll assumed. (2*10^12*2^-3m = 4 mil km, or 11 times the distance eath/moon - hey, waitaminute, this means our reader can eat it's way to the moon in just a month :) Gruss H. It's your fault, John, you got me going :) -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 13 14:35:03 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040813141102.00af7020@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040813152152.05620428@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words: >Am 13 Aug 2004 14:14 meinte Roger Merchberger: >[snip] >Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist den Thaler nicht wert. >(He who doesn't honor the Pfennig isn't woth a Thaler - Thaler >is an old german currency, some 300 years ago ... in fact the >Dollar is taken from that:) Neat saying -- I'll have to add that to my ".sig randomizer" file. [[and my 2nd love is computers -- my first was coin collecting. Unfortunately, old coins don't pay bills, so I don't spend nearly so much time on it as I'd like.]] I know what a Thaler is (but I don't have one... drat!) -- but my choice would probably been Guilder. I don't know why, I've always liked the name Guilder. I do have a few of those. >No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no sound to it. Yea... uh... gee, thanks! That's what we call *our* decimal coinage... (although, even if it says "one cent" on our penny, most people call them pennies to this day.) ;-) >(I think the beeing a politician removes all common sense)... I would think that one would need to lose all common sense *before* becoming a politician! Otherwise, they could have found a much better occupation... So gehts... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 13 14:56:11 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <20040813195609.BHB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Hi Dave > It still sounds like a RAM related issue. The 6502's >needed to gate the VMA with Phase2 ( as I recall ) to >get clean address selects. You might put a scope on >this circuit and make sure it looks like it is working >well. > You should try to create a more exhaustive RAM test. >Although, time consuming, GALPAT is just about the >most intensive. >Dwight Hi Dwight, I've checked all the RAM signals - everything looks OK (about the same as the other unit). I tried putting my diagnostic jumper on both the other (working) SP9000 and the PET 4032 that I have here, and both of them exhibit the same problems with getting the monitor up and running - so I think those issues are just a red herring and are not realated to the actual fault. (For some reason, entering 'M 6666' seems to cause a "break" which comes back with SP=FF and from then on it works OK - on all three machines). I haven't seen a RAM error yet in my poking around (and I've done a fair bit), however there could be address bus errors etc. which I would not see. I really wish I had a better way to load code into the machine then through the keyboard - I may still do up a RAM test replacement for the kernel ROM. (Which is a big job, since I don't have a plug-in replacement for the 2332 so I need to make up an adapter etc.) Has anyone created a "virtual" tape deck? - The monitor has commands to load and save memory from/to tape... I'm still trying to fathom what exactly is happening at power-up - I can't explain the timing of the "beep" - I thought it might bave been generated by the interrupt, however with pin4 physically pulled out and tied high (no IRQ) the beep still happens... I think the key to understanding what is going on is to figure out exactly where it's hanging during the initialization of BASIC. Btw, if I hit 'X' at the monitor prompt, I do get the BASIC 'READY' prompt, although you can't do anything due to the fact that in this case, BASIC never got initialized ... Same thing happens on the other machines. Argh... this is turning into a bigger job than I had expected (It's a lot easier when things don't work at all) ... I want to get these d*mn things off my bench - I acquired a 5100 earlier this week which is has been calling to me ever since I brought it home. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 14:45:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Aug 12, 4 09:20:11 pm Message-ID: > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) I'll read that as 2*10^11 bytes. A good paper tape reader reads 10^3 bytes/second. So it would take 2*10^8 seconds to read it. Now, there are about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, so it would take about 6 or 7 years to read in that much data. Which is slow, but not impossibly slow! -tony From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 13 15:09:56 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard ) In-Reply-To: <411D322A.30270.158CD60F@localhost> Message-ID: Hans, You missed the important part of using a newspaper press as a papertape reader...It is MUCH wider than a single byte. No revising the calculations to use the actual roll sizee of a commercial press, and using 10 bytes / sq in [arrogant american here] we start to see some interesting numbers for capacity and speed.... Not neaarly as fast as other storage media still...but you get the advantage that it is readable by a human [yes I have punched and read PDP-8 BIN loader tapes by hand!]. Very fault tolerant [wish I could find a pack of the old adhexive paper table patches]. Actually no technology is needed to read it. If we are going to use more advanced technology but still keep the basis premise, then "reasonable" stamped indentations or even holes could be made into a very durable media. We sould want to keep the density at or near "eye readable" levels to eliminate the need for equipment to interpret the information. When every one stops laughing (or groaning) compare this concept to the ancient recordings we have [hieroglyphics, cuniform, etc] and you will see it is not so different and they have lasted (Basically) intact in many cases for thousands of years. Even the ones that are severely damaged, still provide readable content. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke >>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:27 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source >>> media archive standard ) >>> >>> Am 13 Aug 2004 14:55 meinte John Lawson: >>> > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote: >>> > > Hi, >>> > > ben franchuk said: >>> > >> Stan Barr wrote: >>> > >>> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in >>> Japan recently >>> > >>> demoed >>> > [snippage] >>> > >> What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :) >>> > > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would >>> take to read >>> > > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) >>> >>> > No need to imagine - Calculate: >>> >>> > Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format, then each >>> > character is a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly >>> advanced optical >>> > device running at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute. >>> >>> > 2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12 >>> >>> > so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB >>> > /60 = 27,777,777.8 hours >>> > /24 = 1,157,407.41 days >>> > /365 = 3171 years >>> > presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate >>> that long w/out >>> > any maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a >>> couple of these >>> > on his Shelves. >>> >>> > NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a >>> 3/4-inch hub >>> > with a punch width of .060 and an inter-character width >>> of .060 makes >>> > a diameter of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry. >>> >>> > But damn! that would be an impressive wheel of paper!!!! >>> >>> Nowwaitaminute.... Impressive Paper roll? that reminds me >>> of news paper printing, and AFAIR they use speeds of above >>> 40 km/h (25 mph) at at the press in one newspaper here in >>> Munich (Sueddeutsche Zeitung)... With way less quality >>> paper than paper tape used to be. >>> >>> Now .. let's for now assume a bit hole is about 1 mm in >>> diameter, and the gap between is of equal size, thus one >>> byte every 2mm. >>> now, assumeing a speed of 40 km/h this gives 40,000,000/2 >>> Bytes/h or 20 MByte/h transfer rate (or with around 333 >>> KByte/min or 5 k/s almost 300 times the speed you assumed). >>> The problem is still the paper transport, not optical >>> sensing, since even an 8 Bit controler is be able to shovel >>> awy the data. >>> >>> 2*10^12/2*10^7 >>> >>> ... gee that's easy to cancel down ... >>> >>> 1*10^5 hours >>> or just about 14 Month >>> >>> Hey, that's fast! >>> >>> Average access time of just 7 Month - large enough paper >>> roll assumed. >>> (2*10^12*2^-3m = 4 mil km, or 11 times the distance >>> eath/moon - hey, waitaminute, this means our reader can eat >>> it's way to the moon in just a month :) >>> >>> Gruss >>> H. >>> It's your fault, John, you got me going :) >>> -- >>> VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen >>> http://www.vcfe.org/ >>> From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 15:03:40 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040813152152.05620428@mail.30below.com> References: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> Message-ID: <411D3ABC.27080.15AE511A@localhost> Am 13 Aug 2004 15:35 meinte Roger Merchberger: > Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words: > >Am 13 Aug 2004 14:14 meinte Roger Merchberger: > >[snip] > >Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist den Thaler nicht wert. > >(He who doesn't honor the Pfennig isn't woth a Thaler - Thaler > >is an old german currency, some 300 years ago ... in fact the > >Dollar is taken from that:) > I know what a Thaler is (but I don't have one... drat!) -- but my choice > would probably been Guilder. I don't know why, I've always liked the name > Guilder. I do have a few of those. Jo, even Guldern/Guilder would have been better. > >No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no sound to it. > Yea... uh... gee, thanks! That's what we call *our* decimal coinage... > (although, even if it says "one cent" on our penny, most people call them > pennies to this day.) After all, it'S not a name, it just says 1/100th. And there' not much more stupid to me, than takeing a name from which was already just made up. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 14:50:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 13, 4 08:45:10 pm Message-ID: > > > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read > > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) > > I'll read that as 2*10^11 bytes. A good paper tape reader reads 10^3 OOops. I missed a 0. It's 2*10^12 bytes. > bytes/second. So it would take 2*10^8 seconds to read it. Now, there are > about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, so it would take about 6 or 7 years to > read in that much data. Which makes it 60+ years... Hmmm... May I use 10 paper tape readers in parallel :-) > > Which is slow, but not impossibly slow! > > -tony > -tony From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 13 15:08:01 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <200408131924.PAA27970@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> Message-ID: <411D3BC1.7135.15B24BE7@localhost> Am 13 Aug 2004 15:11 meinte der Mouse: > >> Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when real coins had real names... > > Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin names, > > both are well known in all European languages (Franken, Franc, Franks > > / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) > "All European languages"? Danish? Finnish? Polish? Slovenian? > English, for that matter? There isn't much of anything left as far as > I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least not in the North > American dialect. Yeah, what about Penny? My reason to select a real (old) curency name is that such names are still known by most people, and usualy attached with a rather positive sence (aka good old times, when we still could by a horse for 5 Thaler and get a room at an inn for 5 Kreuzer) > > had to come up with the stupis name Euro. > Like the currency itself, I suspect it's largely a political > compromise. The story told is that they where more or less finished, but already talking for two days in a row about the name thing, until Waigel came with the artificial crap and forced it doun the throat. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 13 15:16:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting the differences between Tony's and Han's calculations... taking into account 10^11 vs 10^12 and 10^3 vs 1.2*10^3....nope still a big difference.... Getting out the slide rule..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell >>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:45 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard >>> >>> > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would >>> take to read >>> > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) >>> >>> I'll read that as 2*10^11 bytes. A good paper tape reader >>> reads 10^3 bytes/second. So it would take 2*10^8 seconds to >>> read it. Now, there are about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, so >>> it would take about 6 or 7 years to read in that much data. >>> >>> Which is slow, but not impossibly slow! >>> >>> -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 15:14:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040813131316.U62435@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > You missed the important part of using a newspaper press as a papertape > reader...It is MUCH wider than a single byte. > No revising the calculations to use the actual roll sizee of a commercial > press, and using 10 bytes / sq in [arrogant american here] we start to see > some interesting numbers for capacity and speed.... > > Not neaarly as fast as other storage media still...but you get the advantage > that it is readable by a human [yes I have punched and read PDP-8 BIN loader > tapes by hand!]. Very fault tolerant [wish I could find a pack of the old > adhexive paper table patches]. Actually no technology is needed to read it. Fault tolerant? Hanging chad? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 13 15:30:04 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard ) In-Reply-To: <20040813131316.U62435@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: That is a fault at write time. Once the data have been validated, chad does NOT "appear". Since we are basing the cretion of the archives on the present day, we could simply gather all of the chad at the time of writing the archive and simply messure the mass compared to the number of "1"s that were printed. David >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 4:15 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source >>> media archive standard ) >>> >>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > You missed the important part of using a newspaper press as a >>> > papertape reader...It is MUCH wider than a single byte. >>> > No revising the calculations to use the actual roll sizee of a >>> > commercial press, and using 10 bytes / sq in [arrogant >>> american here] >>> > we start to see some interesting numbers for capacity and >>> speed.... >>> > >>> > Not neaarly as fast as other storage media still...but >>> you get the >>> > advantage that it is readable by a human [yes I have >>> punched and read >>> > PDP-8 BIN loader tapes by hand!]. Very fault tolerant >>> [wish I could >>> > find a pack of the old adhexive paper table patches]. >>> Actually no technology is needed to read it. >>> >>> Fault tolerant? Hanging chad? >>> From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Aug 13 15:26:37 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001601c48173$d5310c00$4d4d2c0a@atx> > I'm currently investigating possibilities in the UK, so please do check > into it for me. What I'd need to know right off is what, if any, fees > would be required to rent the required space, and how much those fees are. > Would collaborating with one of the bigger ham radio rallies be practical? (probably wouldn't be enough spare space at the obvious choice of Donnington, tho' that location might be cost-effective standalone.) In London the best bet is probably Excel ... but even that is likely to be too much. Best accessibility is going to be the midlands - somewhere like Loughboro' is in range of London, York, and Manchester but less than optimum for train travellers. Andy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 13 15:27:11 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard ) References: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> <411D322A.30270.158CD60F@localhost> Message-ID: <411D241F.1000506@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans Franke wrote: > Now .. let's for now assume a bit hole is about 1 mm in diameter, > and the gap between is of equal size, thus one byte every 2mm. > now, assumeing a speed of 40 km/h this gives 40,000,000/2 Bytes/h > or 20 MByte/h transfer rate (or with around 333 KByte/min or 5 k/s > almost 300 times the speed you assumed). The problem is still the > paper transport, not optical sensing, since even an 8 Bit controler > is be able to shovel awy the data. > 1*10^5 hours > or just about 14 Month Well read this ( almost on topic ) "In order to break the Lorenz codes in a reasonable time the cipher text had to be repeatedly scanned at very high speed. This meant at least 5,000 characters per second and in the 1942 this implied hard vacuum photocells to optically read the holes in the paper tape. The smallest photocells available were some developed for proximity fuses in anti aircraft shells. Six of these in a row meant an optical projection system to enlarge the image of the paper tape about 10 times. Dr Arnold Lynch designed the paper tape reader and used slits cut into black card to form a mask in front of the photocells." Quoted from this web page. http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/colossus.htm From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 13 16:03:43 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <411D3BC1.7135.15B24BE7@localhost> References: <411D2ADF.12899.15705A8E@localhost> <411D3BC1.7135.15B24BE7@localhost> Message-ID: <200408132112.RAA28513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin >>> names, both are well known in all European languages (Franken, >>> Franc, Franks / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) >> English, for that matter? There isn't much of anything left as far >> as I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least not in the >> North American dialect. > Yeah, what about Penny? What about it? You said "both", and "Pfennig" is no problem ("penny", as you point out); it's "Franken" I can't see any live relative to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 13 16:39:59 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <20040813213957.DAWY13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> A little more progress... Here is the BASIC startup code, which is jumped to by the kernel (in F000 ROM) if DIAG is not pulled low (Basically, it goes either here or the monitor): ; initcz Initialize BASIC RAM D3B6 iD3B6 LDX #$FB D3B8 TXS D3B9 LDA #$4C D3BB STA $51 D3BD STA $00 ; USR Function Jump Instr (4C) D3BF LDA #$73 D3C1 LDY #$C3 D3C3 STA $01 ; USR Address [4: C373] D3C5 STY $02 D3C7 LDX #$1C D3C9 iD3C9 LDA $D398,X D3CC STA $6F,X D3CE DEX D3CF BNE $D3C9 D3D1 LDA #$03 D3D3 STA $50 D3D5 TXA D3D6 STA $65 ; Floating -accum. #1: Overflow Digit D3D8 STA $10 ; 3: width of source (unused - from TTY) D3DA STA $15 D3DC STA $0D ; 3: Flag to suppress PRINT or PRINT# D3DE PHA D3DF INX D3E0 STX $01FD D3E3 STX $01FC D3E6 LDX #$16 D3E8 STX $13 ; Pointer Temporary String D3EA LDY #$04 D3EC STA $28 ; Pointer: Start of BASIC Text [0401] D3EE STY $29 D3F0 STA $11 ; Temp: Integer Value D3F2 STY $12 D3F4 TAY D3F5 LDA #$80 D3F7 BNE $D400 D3F9 LDA #$00 D3FB LDY #$B0 D3FD JMP $D41B D400 iD400 INC $11 ; Temp: Integer Value D402 BNE $D408 D404 INC $12 D406 BMI $D417 ; initms Output Power-Up Message D408 iD408 LDA #$55 D40A STA ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value D40C CMP ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value D40E BNE $D417 ; initms Output Power-Up Message D410 ASL D411 STA ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value D413 CMP ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value D415 BEQ $D400 ; initms Output Power-Up Message D417 iD417 LDA $11 ; Temp: Integer Value On the working PET, I can use 'G D3B6' and it starts BASIC, just as if it were running normally. On the bad PET, it hangs, and never prints the message which is output by the very next block (D417). [Interesting side note - this NEVER produces the startup "noise", so it is clearly not produced by BASIC either ... a mystery] Now, on the bad pet, if I do 'G D417', which bypasses this block of code, it issues the startup message and comes up in BASIC (somewhat weird because various things were not setup, but it's there). So - thats pretty conclusive proof that this is the block where the problem is manifesting itself. Looking at the block of code, it "shouldn't" hang ... There are only two loops, the first is counted by a register (as long as the CPU is good this should work, and I have swapped the 6502 with the other machine) ... the second goes until RAM fails to verify (this will definately happen by the time it reaches the ROM), or the $11,$12 location wraps to a negative value (32k max RAM). There are no subroutine calls in this block, so it should not depend on a valid stack. Using my "try BASIC then reset to monitor without interrupting power" technique, I see that $11,$12 almost always contains $01,$40, which means that it reached the INC $11 once (first time through). The only way I can see this loop crashing is if the $11 (or $12) location does no increment correctly (RAM fauly) - I've manually tested all kinds of values in them, or if the ROM "goes bad" during code execution. [If the $12 location was faulty, I should see "random" values in $11 depending on the timing of when I hit reset] I'm thinking ROM again (this was my "gut feel" when I started because I have seen so many PET ROM's go bad) - although it reads OK in my EPROM programmer, and also this block dumps correctly from the monitor, both of these accesses are fairly laid back - hitting the code is the first time we execute code from this device... Timing on execute could be tighter (I haven't checked the databook yet), also the frequency of accesses will be much higher ... Perhaps if the ROM is marginal, one of these factors is enough to cause a failure. I think a bad ROM is more likely than a single location in the RAM appearing to work for manual tests, but failing during this particular block of code, especially considering that the rest of RAM is good enough for lots of other stuff to run ... What do you guys think? Anyone have experiences with marginal PET roms? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 13 16:36:38 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard ) In-Reply-To: <411D241F.1000506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> <411D322A.30270.158CD60F@localhost> <411D241F.1000506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1092432997.12178.100.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-13 at 20:27, ben franchuk wrote: > "In order to break the Lorenz codes in a reasonable time the cipher text > had > to be repeatedly scanned at very high speed. This meant at least 5,000 > characters per second and in the 1942 this implied hard vacuum photocells > to optically read the holes in the paper tape. Actually flat-out the Colossus reader can manage around 8000 chars/sec IIRC. I'm sure that Cliff (one of the other guys who looks after the Colossus rebuild) has mentioned to me before that they've had problems with the tape wearing the metal pulleys on the tape frame before with those kinds of speeds. They seem to be letting the public stand in the H Block machine room itself at the moment (rather than previously whereby the public were kept in a windowed viewing room) so it's a good time to go and see the rebuilt Colossus running. cheers Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Aug 13 17:26:54 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Introduction References: <20040810023141.15837.qmail@hegel.synacor.com> Message-ID: <411D402E.DFBA7007@msm.umr.edu> nice page of systems, especially the core one. Was the photo of your system, or taken from the book? user anonymous wrote: > I have been on this list for about a month now. Very interesting how many people still play around with this old stuff. I have a few pictures of some of my old computers and peripherals for those interested. > > http://www.dickey.intell-a-sys.com/collect.html > > Most are my original systems and have some interesting peripherals attached. I have a few other computers that I am still rebuilding. I have not worked on them in a while, but reading all your mail may ignite that spark. Too many hobbies. > > Well, just thought I would introduce myself. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 13 17:37:31 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: <200408132112.RAA28513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: So are you saying on "Franken""Sense", how about "Gold" or "Myrrh"? >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse >>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 5:04 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer >>> vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive >>> standard)) >>> >>> >>> Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin >>> >>> names, both are well known in all European languages (Franken, >>> >>> Franc, Franks / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) >>> >> English, for that matter? There isn't much of anything >>> left as far >>> >> as I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least >>> not in the >>> >> North American dialect. >>> > Yeah, what about Penny? >>> >>> What about it? You said "both", and "Pfennig" is no >>> problem ("penny", as you point out); it's "Franken" I can't >>> see any live relative to. >>> >>> /~\ The ASCII der Mouse >>> \ / Ribbon Campaign >>> X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Aug 13 17:30:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) In-Reply-To: <20040813173731.XCHV26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040813173731.XCHV26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040813223039.GA5403@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 01:37:33PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Ethan, > > Thanks again for the very useful information. You are welcome. > Reminder: This SuperPET 9000 has been stripped to just the 6502 board. On power-up > it init's screen (can see garbage, then clear), plays the "bee-dle-bee-dle-bee-dle" > startup noise, then hangs with the blank screen (never displays basic startup > message). Some experimentation suggests the it continues to run code at this point > (ie: is hung waiting for something), however this is by no means certain. OK... thanks for the reminder about how far it gets. > I hunted around funet and found the Basic4 ROM disassembly - as far as I can tell, > it exactly matches the ROMs in this PET. That makes sense. AFAIK, the base 8032 is unchanged when "converted" to a SuperPET. All the magic is in the board that attaches to the processor socket. > Looking at the startup code ($FD16), and the schematic, I was able to identify the > diagnostic input signal (Pin 5 of user port), and when held low, it DOES startup in > the monitor (Took me a long time to figure out the commands - especially the fact > that you need TWO spaces after ':' to write to memory). Cool... much of it is working, then. > Now is where things get interesting. > > The monitor always starts up, and the 'R' always works, however 'M' to display memory > causes it to crash about 80% of the time - however if it works, it is reliable, and > 'M' will continue to work until the next time I restart the machine. OK... > At first I thought this might be an indication of bad RAM (still might be), however > after playing with it for a while, I noticed that the SP in the register display is > always '01', '03' or some low value when it doesn't work - I'm guessing the monitor > tries to locate it's stack below here and it wraps) Hmm... I just checked vs xpet and SP _is_ 01... that means that the stack is 'full' on entering the monitor. I'm not surprised that some of the functions act wierd. I don't recall how a 6502 acts when the SP wraps around, but it's probably not the best thing in the world to be doing. > Another thing I don't understand yet: > > When powered-up with diag held low, the system goes directly into the monitor > ($D472), and DOES NOT play the "bee-dle-bee-dle..." startup noise. This indicates > that this noise should be generated by entry into BASIC ($D3B6). That makes sense. > Looking at this code, it sets up a few location in zero pages, and then output the > startup message (no other subs are called in between) - I see nothing which would > generate the "noise" - so one would think it is being generated AFTER the startup > message, however ... Is there an ASCII 0x07 (BEL) in the message? > When I start the machine with DIAG high (normal), I see screenful of garbage (briefly) > and then it clears, then the "noise" plays - no message comes out, but I know the > screen is working. Referring to the working machine, it is clear that the "noise" > finishes BEFORE the text comes out, however I don't see where it could be generated. OK... > By using a reset switch, I was able (after several attempts) to bring the machine > up from power off in "normal" mode.... > > Any further ideas? You've got me stumped now. I'm not the worlds greatest experts when it comes to BASIC 4.0 machines. All of my deep, deep exploration was in the days of BASIC 2.0 on a pre-6545 (TTL video) PET. By the time I got an 8032, I didn't have to dig into the depths that far to accomplish what I wanted to do. Maybe you could write a program that checksums the BASIC ROMs (4K at a time)? It wouldn't even have to call $FFD2 for output - you could just write the values into RAM somewhere and you could end with a BRK (0x00). VICE (xpet) would be a good way to validate your experiements. It's quite precise about how it emulates things. You could even enter the same program into xpet and use that to verify your checksums. At this point, you might be having RAM problems, ROM problems, or something unrelated (address select, etc.) If your PET had sockets for the ROMs, I'd recommend replacing them. Since you don't, that won't help. The only thing that comes to mind is that the BASIC print routine probably still synchronizes with the frame refresh signal on 6545-based models. The "killer poke" is entwined with this concept, because the point of it (with the original hardware) was to set a particular bit on a 6520 such that the BASIC PRINT subroutine always thought it was "safe" to scribble on screen memory, speeding up PRINTing significantly (there's a whole genre of BASIC animations that depend on the killer poke for special effects). The char print kernel routine at $FFD2 doesn't check this bit, just the BASIC PRINT subroutine, _before_ it calls $FFD2. Perhaps that circuit is faulty and it's hanging while printing the startup banner because BASIC doesn't think it's "safe" to write to screen memory without potentially causing an access conflict with the screen update process. Just a guess, but I can't figure another reason why the monitor would fire up in diagnostic mode, but the startup banner would "hang". -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Aug-2004 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -75.7 F (-59.9 C) Windchill -119 F (-83.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.1 kts Grid 093 Barometer 669.8 mb (11014 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Aug 13 17:35:35 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) In-Reply-To: <20040813195609.BHB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040813195609.BHB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040813223535.GB5403@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 03:56:11PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Has anyone created a "virtual" tape deck? - The monitor has commands to load > and save memory from/to tape... Yes... the C2N232 - an Atmel microcontroller and a DE9 serial connector. The Atmel understands two formats of bits coming over the PET connector - the standard C= PET tape format (TTL-level signals meant to be converted to audio signals in a C2N tape drive) and some high-bandwidth C2N232-specific signals that can be generated by a modern program that you can load in via the tape port. I do not know if they are currently in production anywhere in the world, but I have two at home. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Aug-2004 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.8 F (-54.9 C) Windchill -106.3 F (-76.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.1 kts Grid 099 Barometer 669.8 mb (11014 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 17:39:03 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040813153828.X66101@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > So are you saying on "Franken""Sense", how about "Gold" or "Myrrh"? "Franken"ly, I don't give a damn. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 13 17:59:38 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive standard)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408132300.TAA29358@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So are you saying on "Franken""Sense", how about "Gold" or "Myrrh"? Yes! That's a myrrhvelous idea! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 13 18:01:02 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <200408132301.QAA03335@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If I understand you right, there is a RAM test. Place this same code in low RAM ( assuming it test going up ) with the initial value such that it doesn't overwrite your code. If it hanges, it is something that it is talking to. If it hanges, the ROM problem is likely. You migh also look at changing the PS voltage slightly. Rasing the voltage by 3% should not cause any failures but if it starts to work, it is an indication. Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >A little more progress... > >Here is the BASIC startup code, which is jumped to by the kernel (in F000 ROM) if DIAG is >not pulled low (Basically, it goes either here or the monitor): > >; initcz Initialize BASIC RAM > D3B6 iD3B6 LDX #$FB > D3B8 TXS > D3B9 LDA #$4C > D3BB STA $51 > D3BD STA $00 ; USR Function Jump Instr (4C) > D3BF LDA #$73 > D3C1 LDY #$C3 > D3C3 STA $01 ; USR Address [4: C373] > D3C5 STY $02 > D3C7 LDX #$1C > D3C9 iD3C9 LDA $D398,X > D3CC STA $6F,X > D3CE DEX > D3CF BNE $D3C9 > D3D1 LDA #$03 > D3D3 STA $50 > D3D5 TXA > D3D6 STA $65 ; Floating -accum. #1: Overflow Digit > D3D8 STA $10 ; 3: width of source (unused - from TTY) > D3DA STA $15 > D3DC STA $0D ; 3: Flag to suppress PRINT or PRINT# > D3DE PHA > D3DF INX > D3E0 STX $01FD > D3E3 STX $01FC > D3E6 LDX #$16 > D3E8 STX $13 ; Pointer Temporary String > D3EA LDY #$04 > D3EC STA $28 ; Pointer: Start of BASIC Text [0401] > D3EE STY $29 > D3F0 STA $11 ; Temp: Integer Value > D3F2 STY $12 > D3F4 TAY > D3F5 LDA #$80 > D3F7 BNE $D400 > D3F9 LDA #$00 > D3FB LDY #$B0 > D3FD JMP $D41B > D400 iD400 INC $11 ; Temp: Integer Value > D402 BNE $D408 > D404 INC $12 > D406 BMI $D417 ; initms Output Power-Up Message > D408 iD408 LDA #$55 > D40A STA ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value > D40C CMP ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value > D40E BNE $D417 ; initms Output Power-Up Message > D410 ASL > D411 STA ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value > D413 CMP ($11),Y ; Temp: Integer Value > D415 BEQ $D400 > >; initms Output Power-Up Message > D417 iD417 LDA $11 ; Temp: Integer Value > > >On the working PET, I can use 'G D3B6' and it starts BASIC, just as if it >were running normally. On the bad PET, it hangs, and never prints the message >which is output by the very next block (D417). > >[Interesting side note - this NEVER produces the startup "noise", so it is >clearly not produced by BASIC either ... a mystery] > >Now, on the bad pet, if I do 'G D417', which bypasses this block of code, >it issues the startup message and comes up in BASIC (somewhat weird because >various things were not setup, but it's there). > >So - thats pretty conclusive proof that this is the block where the problem >is manifesting itself. > >Looking at the block of code, it "shouldn't" hang ... There are only two >loops, the first is counted by a register (as long as the CPU is good this >should work, and I have swapped the 6502 with the other machine) ... the >second goes until RAM fails to verify (this will definately happen by the >time it reaches the ROM), or the $11,$12 location wraps to a negative >value (32k max RAM). There are no subroutine calls in this block, so it >should not depend on a valid stack. > >Using my "try BASIC then reset to monitor without interrupting power" >technique, I see that $11,$12 almost always contains $01,$40, which means >that it reached the INC $11 once (first time through). > >The only way I can see this loop crashing is if the $11 (or $12) location >does no increment correctly (RAM fauly) - I've manually tested all kinds of >values in them, or if the ROM "goes bad" during code execution. > >[If the $12 location was faulty, I should see "random" values in $11 depending >on the timing of when I hit reset] > >I'm thinking ROM again (this was my "gut feel" when I started because I have >seen so many PET ROM's go bad) - although it reads OK in my EPROM programmer, >and also this block dumps correctly from the monitor, both of these accesses >are fairly laid back - hitting the code is the first time we execute code from >this device... Timing on execute could be tighter (I haven't checked the >databook yet), also the frequency of accesses will be much higher ... Perhaps >if the ROM is marginal, one of these factors is enough to cause a failure. > >I think a bad ROM is more likely than a single location in the RAM appearing >to work for manual tests, but failing during this particular block of code, >especially considering that the rest of RAM is good enough for lots of other >stuff to run ... > >What do you guys think? Anyone have experiences with marginal PET roms? > >Regards, >Dave > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 18:21:38 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <1092432997.12178.100.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> <411D322A.30270.158CD60F@localhost> <411D241F.1000506@jetnet.ab.ca> <1092432997.12178.100.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <411D4D02.6090103@frixxon.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Actually flat-out the Colossus reader can manage around 8000 chars/sec > IIRC. I'm sure that Cliff (one of the other guys who looks after the > Colossus rebuild) has mentioned to me before that they've had problems > with the tape wearing the metal pulleys on the tape frame before with > those kinds of speeds. > > They seem to be letting the public stand in the H Block machine room > itself at the moment (rather than previously whereby the public were > kept in a windowed viewing room) so it's a good time to go and see the > rebuilt Colossus running. I went to Bletchley for the first time on Wednesday. Tony Sale was there and he let us into the machine room. It was fascinating to be stood right next to Colossus's "bedstead" as the tape whirred around at 30 miles per hour, and to see the blinkenlights and valves. I bought my cheap return ticket, so I'll make the next trip on a Saturday to see the Retrobeep collection. (Sorry, I've been repeating that name to myself in an effort to get used to it, and it _still_ sucks!) -- Paul From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 20:10:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <411D2098.9691.15483303@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > BTW: My Mother always drives a Mercedes, so why do I need one? Because she's knows the way you drive and has seen what's happened to your car, and won't let you go anywhere near her Mercedes ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 20:14:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040813193442.05868260@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > Never having been to any VCF - hell, I didn't even know anybody collected > old kit seriously, until recently, what is the sort of size venue these > things need? The main hall would need to be about a minimum of 150m^2 (1600ft^2) with an adjoining hall that can hold around 50 people in lecture style seating arrangement. Preferably, it would be near a large population center with good public transit, and cheap ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 13 20:16:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, John Lawson wrote: > Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format, then each character is > a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly advanced optical device running > at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute. > > 2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12 > > so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB > > /60 = 27,777,777.8 hours > > /24 = 1,157,407.41 days > > /365 = 3171 years > > presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate that long w/out any > maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a couple of these on his > Shelves. If someone can punch me a 2TB tape then I'll be happy to set it in motion and we'll check on it in about 3K years. > NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a 3/4-inch hub with a > punch width of .060 and an inter-character width of .060 makes a diameter > of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry. It's all sticky! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 13 21:07:37 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET problem SOLVED! Message-ID: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Ethan, Dwight (and anyone else who helped), Thanks for all the help - I've solved it and it works! Turns out it was NOT the ROM's -- After my last post I got to thinking that the PET ROM's are probably fused type, and wouldn't go marginal like an EPROM, so I focused on the RAM - sure enough, testing again, and I found that bit 1 of location $11 was stuck at zero (I'm positive I tried it before and it seemed to work - bit the funky PET monitor with it's exact # of spaces required was causing me some grief!) Anway, when 01 got incremented, instead of 02, it got 00 - this was hanging the search for end of RAM, which never incremented the high byte and therefore never traped at 32k.. Checking the Schematic, bit 1 of the low memory bank is U17 - pulled it, put in a socket (always!) and stuffed another 4116 - voila!!! it came right up! Also figured out the startup "noise" mystery (such unanswered questions "bug" me), turns out the PORTA bit 7, which is used for the DIAG input is also used to control the speaker (it was right on the schematic once I looked for it - duh) - pulling this line low disabled the speaker. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 13 21:29:22 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation (Mike Ross) Message-ID: >>the McMasterUniv/KevinStumpf PDP-15 several years ago. >How is Kevin.S lately? I got the impression that he was one of the older >collectors looking to get out of the hobby, or at least lower the >collection >by an order of magnitude. I bought from him a sys/370-168 control panel. >The guy was definitely into big stuff. He's pretty much out of the hobby, I believe. I think the stuff I got from him was pretty much the last. He's pursing other interests, AFAIK. Mike http://www.corestore.org From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Aug 13 21:35:46 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: **Re: Tandy References: <000d01c47f4f$7eafa240$0600a8c0@cablemodem> Message-ID: <002701c481a7$67855790$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> love to see a picture! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Yager" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: Tandy Someone said: Tandy was trying to peddle some "business" "mini-computer"s. IIRC, it was built into a desk. I don't know where you had to go to actually SEE one (I don't think that even the Radio Shack "computer center"s had them), but Tandy did have a catalog for them. Yup! That's the animal, all right...built into a desk. I can post the picture on a webpage if anyone is interested in eyeballin' it. --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Aug 13 21:51:13 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:12 2005 Subject: PET problem SOLVED! In-Reply-To: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040814025113.GA477@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:07:37PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Ethan, Dwight (and anyone else who helped), > > Thanks for all the help - I've solved it and it works! Nice! > Turns out it was NOT the ROM's -- After my last post I got to thinking that the PET > ROM's are probably fused type, and wouldn't go marginal like an EPROM... They are mask-programmed, not fused like a bipolar PROM, but I agree... when they fail, they tend to fail completely, not marginally (and I _have_ had C= ROMs fail on me, but not as often as other problems, like a C-64/SX-64 PLA, for example) > so I focused on the RAM - sure enough, testing again, and I found that bit 1 of > location $11 was stuck at zero Wow... that's a really picky error, but given the code snippet, it makes sense. > Checking the Schematic, bit 1 of the low memory bank is U17 - pulled it, put in a > socket (always!) and stuffed another 4116 - voila!!! it came right up! Perfect. > Also figured out the startup "noise" mystery (such unanswered questions "bug" me), > turns out the PORTA bit 7, which is used for the DIAG input is also used to control > the speaker (it was right on the schematic once I looked for it - duh) - pulling > this line low disabled the speaker. Ah... that's one of those things that doesn't appear in the older motherboards, so I'm not surprised to find I had no idea that's how it works. Anyway... good job sleuthing it all out. Since you mentioned this as a SuperPET, it reminds me that one of these days I'll have to haul some of my NIB spares out of the attic and convert one of my 8032s into a SuperPET to see how they play. Fortunately there are more resources out there for it now than there were ten years ago when I got the stack of boards. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 14-Aug-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.5 F (-55.3 C) Windchill -104.9 F (-76.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.2 kts Grid 082 Barometer 669.7 mb (11018 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 13 22:19:34 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: The Trip is On... In-Reply-To: <20040814025113.GA477@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: And off I go...Traveling up to Wayland to pick up a Teletype, LSI-11, VT-52, Assorted Documentation, Commodore 64 Items, and other Misc Stop. Going to hopefully stop in RI and pick up an Apollo, IBM Printer and some other items. Most of the known items are already spoke for by some list members, but I will post and additional items that are not on "our" keep list early next week. Thanks to Jays wonderful advice, I have checked the spare, and even bought a can of "fix-a-flat" (Plus I am AAA)..... If there is anyone in CT, RI, or South East MA that has computer equipment they are looking to dispose of, send me an e-mail...mayby the traveling van can stop buy you this weekend [send me a direct e-mail] Of course if you have a PDP-8, TU-56 or relased items, the van WILL stop buy (even if just to oogle) and will have cash! David From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Aug 13 22:38:58 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels Message-ID: <000701c481b0$3c0abb60$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> When I restored my TV Typewriters I made a metal case. I was looking for a good way to label the back panel. I found an online source for engraved panels. FrontPanelExpress provides free design software (Windows only) and very reasonable prices. www.frontpanelexpress.com I ordered a 4.5 by 13.5 inch panel with punched holes for a DB25 connector, switches and fuseholder. It was anodize aluminum with in-filled lettering. The cost for one was $46 plus shipping. I have a write-up here. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/Restore/BackPanel.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 13 22:58:55 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation (Mike Ross) References: Message-ID: <002c01c481b3$058221c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 10:29 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation (Mike Ross) > >>the McMasterUniv/KevinStumpf PDP-15 several years ago. > > >How is Kevin.S lately? I got the impression that he was one of the older > >collectors looking to get out of the hobby, or at least lower the > >collection > >by an order of magnitude. I bought from him a sys/370-168 control panel. > >The guy was definitely into big stuff. > > He's pretty much out of the hobby, I believe. I think the stuff I got from > him was pretty much the last. He's pursing other interests, AFAIK. > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > So people actually do leave the hobby? I know dealers from different hobbies end up selling out sooner or later but most people never completely lose their interest in the hobbies (they might not have the funds to continue but that's different). From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 14 03:39:15 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: PET problem SOLVED! In-Reply-To: <20040814025113.GA477@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20040814025113.GA477@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: In message <20040814025113.GA477@bos7.spole.gov> Ethan Dicks wrote: > They are mask-programmed, not fused like a bipolar PROM, but I agree... > when they fail, they tend to fail completely, not marginally (and I > _have_ had C= ROMs fail on me, but not as often as other problems, > like a C-64/SX-64 PLA, for example) I've seen plenty of C64 PLAs fail - never managed to find a suitable replacement for them, though. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... ((((((((HYPNOTIC))))))))((((((TAGLINE)))))))) From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 14 04:23:25 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: PET problem SOLVED! In-Reply-To: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <35437.192.168.1.10.1092475405.squirrel@server.inet> Dave Dunfield said: > Checking the Schematic, bit 1 of the low memory bank is U17 - pulled it, > put in a > socket (always!) and stuffed another 4116 - voila!!! it came right up! Ah... 4116es! How much money did I make at school, fixing ZX Spectrums that had weird black-and-white stripey stuff on the screen..? Almost always, you'd find that one of the eight 4116es had failed, and was (coincidentally) pulling the +12V line from the dinky little chopper PSU down, which also fed the chroma modulator... Hence the black and white screen. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 14 06:12:37 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040813105935.05e03448@pc> References: <0I2D00M5OWZLNA@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20040813105935.05e03448@pc> Message-ID: <35953.192.168.1.10.1092481957.squirrel@server.inet> John Foust said: > At 07:21 AM 8/13/2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >>Aladdin 4D is now on ebay (with source and full rights): >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2992&item=3693574489& >>rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Kermit's a nice reliable guy and Alladin 4D a reasonable product > in its day, but $35K? Four days and no bids, I think that says it all... How many bedrooms does it have? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Aug 14 06:16:44 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: PET problem SOLVED! In-Reply-To: Dave Dunfield "PET problem SOLVED!" (Aug 13, 22:07) References: <20040814020736.CVXG26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <10408141216.ZM18846@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 13 2004, 22:07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Ethan, Dwight (and anyone else who helped), > > Thanks for all the help - I've solved it and it works! > > Turns out it was NOT the ROM's -- After my last post I got to thinking that the PET > ROM's are probably fused type, and wouldn't go marginal like an EPROM They're masked ROMs, not fusible-link types. Even fusible-link ROMs can occasionally go bad, though less often and more slowly than EPROMs. Sometimes the fuses "grow back" by diffusion. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 14 06:37:29 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (rcini@optonline.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels Message-ID: <10d024e10d6a00.10d6a0010d024e@optonline.net> Mike: I've prototyped (and Scott has refined) a replacement Altair 8800 front panel with this service. $98 for single units dropping to the low-$80's. I haven't ordered samples yet but if I get the front panel attachment for the Altair32 Emulator done, I will. Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Holley Date: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:38 pm Subject: Custom made front panels > When I restored my TV Typewriters I made a metal case. I was > looking for a > good way to label the back panel. I found an online source for > engravedpanels. FrontPanelExpress provides free design software > (Windows only) and > very reasonable prices. > www.frontpanelexpress.com > > I ordered a 4.5 by 13.5 inch panel with punched holes for a DB25 > connector,switches and fuseholder. It was anodize aluminum with in- > filled lettering. > The cost for one was $46 plus shipping. I have a write-up here. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/Restore/BackPanel.htm > > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Aug 14 06:42:05 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info)" (Aug 13, 11:27) References: <200408131827.LAA03126@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10408141242.ZM18860@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 13 2004, 11:27, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > You should try to create a more exhaustive RAM test. > Although, time consuming, GALPAT is just about the > most intensive. I know Dave doesn't need it now, but a GALPAT is a very slow test for any sizeable amount of RAM. It's also very old, and not 100% effective against certain errors, though much better than some of the common march tests. It was common in the 70s but a fair amount of work on testing has been done since then and there are much better tests now. I had to do a project for a degree course a few years ago, and found a much better test (in Communications of the ACM), which I coded for a Z80. It tests 8KB RAM in less than 6 seconds at 4MHz, but one of its nice features is that it runs in linear time, so 32K would only take 4 times as long (24s) not 16 times as long -- a GALPAT has order O(n^2). During the project, one of my colleagues worked out that the GALPAT he'd coded would take an hour or two for the same memory. It also doesn't need to use any RAM itself on a Z80 (because there are enough registers), though it would on a 6502. If anyone wants a copy I can give you the Z80 code, some notes from the project writeup, and the CACM references. BTW, most modern tests used commercially are less thorough than a GALPAT; they generally depend on the assumption that most faults depend on the bit(s) immediately adjacent to the faulty one, and require knowledge of the cell topography to be properly effective. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 14 07:18:02 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: TV Typewriter (was: Custom made front panels) In-Reply-To: <000701c481b0$3c0abb60$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> References: <000701c481b0$3c0abb60$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: In message <000701c481b0$3c0abb60$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> "Michael Holley" wrote: > When I restored my TV Typewriters I made a metal case. [snip] Very nice. I was going to build a TVT (modified for 40x25 and PAL/CVBS output), but never managed to find a set of schematics. I might print off the CT-1024 schematics and have a quick look - with a bit of luck it might be fairly easy to upgrade the CT-1024 to 24 lines by 64 columns (or maybe more, but I don't want to go as far as 80x25 - on a Microvitec Cub 653 that's downright painful to read). I was (originally) going to buy an amber-screen VT420 or similar terminal, but they seem to be quite rare in the UK, if greed-bay is anything to go by. Anything that recognises the standard ANSI command codes (and with an amber screen if possible) would be fine; the smaller the better (within reason). Ah well :-/ Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... When I grow up I want to be a message. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 14 08:18:58 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... References: <0I2D00M5OWZLNA@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20040813105935.05e03448@pc> <35953.192.168.1.10.1092481957.squirrel@server.inet> Message-ID: <019f01c48201$42440a30$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... > John Foust said: > > At 07:21 AM 8/13/2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >>Aladdin 4D is now on ebay (with source and full rights): > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2992&item=369357448 9& > >>rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > Kermit's a nice reliable guy and Alladin 4D a reasonable product > > in its day, but $35K? > > Four days and no bids, I think that says it all... How many bedrooms does > it have? > Even if the package worked on the PC platform instead of the Amiga you would have problems selling it in a saturated market these days. Your money would be better spent reselling another CAD package and offering training classes. I think this package goes for $45 a pop on ebay these days from the owner, so you would have to sell 1000 copies to break even when all is said and done (meaning 4 copies to each of the 250 hard core 3D designers that still use an Amiga today). From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Aug 14 08:42:15 2004 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... In-Reply-To: <019f01c48201$42440a30$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <0I2F00KHYVDTAT@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I wish vendors would sometimes just quite trying and release either a binary or source form of old software (aka abandonware). Sigh.... Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Anybody have $35K to $89K to spend... > John Foust said: > > At 07:21 AM 8/13/2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >>Aladdin 4D is now on ebay (with source and full rights): > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2992&item=369357448 9& > >>rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > Kermit's a nice reliable guy and Alladin 4D a reasonable product > > in its day, but $35K? > > Four days and no bids, I think that says it all... How many bedrooms does > it have? > Even if the package worked on the PC platform instead of the Amiga you would have problems selling it in a saturated market these days. Your money would be better spent reselling another CAD package and offering training classes. I think this package goes for $45 a pop on ebay these days from the owner, so you would have to sell 1000 copies to break even when all is said and done (meaning 4 copies to each of the 250 hard core 3D designers that still use an Amiga today). From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 14 11:09:35 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels References: <10d024e10d6a00.10d6a0010d024e@optonline.net> Message-ID: <005b01c48219$1802b380$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > > www.frontpanelexpress.com Very interesting. I have a few things I would like to use this service for. Seems a little pricey to me, but not bad. Sure looks like quality work. I was thinking about learning to do some basic metalwork myself. I have no idea what's required. Often I find myself missing small metal brackets, door mounting posts, key latch plates, etc. Basically flat pieces of metal, bent at one or more right angles, and drilled. Thanks for the link! Jay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 14 11:39:11 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200408140939110356.0AF6FF7D@192.168.42.129> Hi, Jay & Doc, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12-Aug-04 at 12:18 Doc Shipley wrote: >Jay West wrote: >> Just obtained an M4 Data tape drive, model 9914 (800/1600/3200/6250)... >just pulled from working service...desktop enclosure... $50 bucks :) >> >> I believe it's Differential, not single ended. I haven't kept up with PC >technology (hooking this to a PC). Is this older Differential the same as >LVD? I believe it had a centronics 50 pin connector labeled >"differential". I'm wondering what SCSI card I can use with this... >Adaptec 2940? > > Nope. I forget how Adaptec's HVD line is numbered, but LVD, wide, or >UW will NOT work with HVD devices, and will likely cause Magic Smoke to >escape. > > And, of course, HVD adapters for PC have gotten Very Damned Expensive. If you're nutty enough to buy them new, yes, that's absolutely correct. HOWEVER -- I picked up a nice Qlogic PCI HVD SCSI card on E-pay for the stunning total of about $40. Right now, in fact, there are three Adaptec AHA-2944UW Diff/Wide/Narrow SCSI cards at 'Buy-it-Now' for $45 each. Here's the links. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39969&item=5114991632&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39969&item=5114991666&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39969&item=5114997387&rd=1 And here's a BiN on an HP adapter for $25. Granted, I have no idea if this will work in a PC, and you'll probably need one of those Compaq wide-to-narrow cables to use it... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39969&item=5115463280&rd=1 Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 14 12:14:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels In-Reply-To: <000701c481b0$3c0abb60$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Michael Holley wrote: > When I restored my TV Typewriters I made a metal case. I was looking for a > good way to label the back panel. I found an online source for engraved > panels. FrontPanelExpress provides free design software (Windows only) and > very reasonable prices. > www.frontpanelexpress.com > > I ordered a 4.5 by 13.5 inch panel with punched holes for a DB25 connector, > switches and fuseholder. It was anodize aluminum with in-filled lettering. > The cost for one was $46 plus shipping. I have a write-up here. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/Restore/BackPanel.htm What a terrific service!!! I'm sure I'll be taking advantage of that soon. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Aug 14 12:56:09 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Michael Holley wrote: > >> www.frontpanelexpress.com >> > > What a terrific service!!! I'm sure I'll be taking advantage of that > soon. Hey DorkFish! I told you about this a couple of months ago... you're too young to be getting CRS already... Seriously, I've used them as well, and nothing beats the price or the quickness of the service... it's quite amazing. I've had hundreds of custom panels made by various firms over the years - these guys have it right! Cheers John From dj.taylor at starpower.net Thu Aug 12 20:38:25 2004 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: RQZX1 setup? In-Reply-To: <4117B1DC.5010604@mdrconsult.com> References: <410CA467.8050907@mdrconsult.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040802212509.01b03350@pop.starpower.net> <4117B1DC.5010604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040812213228.01b70cd8@pop.starpower.net> At 01:18 PM 8/9/2004, you wrote: >Douglas Taylor wrote: >>I have the manual for the RQZX1, there are two ways to get the Resident >>Firmware to boot: >>1. From the ODT level; >>2. The other way is select DU253 or MU253 as the boot device. This will >>start the diagnostics from ROM. >>Once in the diagnostics you have to get the controller to 'Autoconfigure' >>so it can see all your SCSI devices. > > Thanks, Doug! > > I had found a couple of pages of the manual and have been able to get > into the firmware and configure the system **if and only if** a TZ30 > tape drive is attached. This sounds odd. A TZ30 is holding your system 'hostage'? I've connected a TZ30 into the scsi bus and didn't noticed anything odd. >Even if the controller is set to MSCP on both channels and an alternate >second CSR address, I can't access the RFM either by the ODT method or the >BOOT xU253 method, and can't boot from the SCSI disk. If you need more info from the manual I'll scan the table of contents. > This isn't a showstopper, but it is terribly confusing. The person > from whom I got the switch settings and RFM instructions runs a variety > of tape devices on his RQZX1 with no problems. What other kinds of tape devices can you use? > I can, by the way, install a second tape device and have that recognized. > > My board is silkscreened REV. E, and the resident firmware utility > shows a firmware revision of v2.3 and hardware revision "L". I don't know what I have off hand. > Doc From dj.taylor at starpower.net Thu Aug 12 20:42:15 2004 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: MTI MLV11M Controller Diagnostics/Formatter wanted. Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040812213903.01b898e8@pop.starpower.net> I have a MicroTechnology MLV11M, which connects to a MFM ST412 type of disk and emulates a DEC RL02. I used to have the manual and formatting software for this but they got lost.... It's a long story. What I am looking for is a utility called RL02DG.SAV which runs under RT11 and allows you to format a disk connected to the controller. Anyone have this very old software? Circa 1985 perhaps. Doug From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 12 21:39:47 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: ANN: Altair32 release 3.0 posted Message-ID: <000f01c480de$ccba1a20$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello, all: I wanted to drop everyone a note to let you know that the latest version of the Altair32 Emulator was released this evening. It has been more than a year since the last update and a lot of work has gone into bug hunting and enhancing operational performance. Scott made the timeslicer multi-threaded, so now the Altair32 can achieve prototypical performance with a machine as slow as a Pentium-III/500MHz (the slowest machine available for testing) at a greatly reduced host system load (10-20%). There are a few things on the drawing board for the next version. First, we will be adding support for a to-be-named color graphics board. Second, hopefully, we will be adding support for an operational Altair (or IMSAI) front panel with a machined metal dress panel in the case of the Altair, or a screenprinted plexiglass one for the IMSAI. Thanks again for all of your support with this project, and enjoy. As always, if anyone finds any bugs or anomalies in the code, please let me know. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Altair32 Page: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32.htm /************************************************************/ From news at computercollector.com Thu Aug 12 23:30:18 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Where to see vintage computers in (your town here) ??? Message-ID: <20040813043018.15758.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Hello fellow collectors, There's a new resource for finding places to see antique computers, at the (updated) web site of the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter. The URL remains the same as before (http://news.computercollector.com) but now there's a much improved section called "On the road" with a directory of museums and stores. I created this page because I keep seeing the same question appear on classiccmp over and over again, and then I started getting the same question from newsletter readers too. Currently there are 53 listings. Mostly they are museums (some for adults and some for children) and there are some stores too. In the future, I plan to add more listings of electronics and surplus stores, swap meets locations, and bookstores. The "On the road" directory and the newsletter itself, which still publishes every Monday(-ish), are and will always remain free. However, I do ask for your help. If you know of any museums, stores that sell old computers or relevant parts, swap meets, or science/technology bookstores, no matter how small or out-of-the-way they are, then please tell me. For now the directory is sorted by U.S. state, but when it becomes more full, I'll probably make it searchable and also separated by category (museum, store, etc.)... eventually I'll add non-U.S. locations too. Another idea I have is to post reviews from people who've been to the locations in person. I hope this helps! - Evan From kenacms at ngatoro.six.net.au Fri Aug 13 04:41:34 2004 From: kenacms at ngatoro.six.net.au (Ken Kirkby (ACMS)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408032028.40998.finnegpt@purdue.edu> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 3, 4 08:28:40 pm Message-ID: <200408130936.i7D9aDU07859@ngatoro.six.net.au> > > here.> > > I've got a few "rare" machines, but they mostly seem to come out of some > sort of "scientific instrumentation". A vector-based computer that > processed NMR data - an Aspect 3000, some machines made by Nicolet and > others, etc. > > Some of my favorite "rarer" machines are my General Automation SPC-16/40 > and /45 (which are neither complete nor functional right now ): It was > a machine targeted where the Data General Nova was targeted (a general > purpose 16bit machine in the early 70s). Industrial Electronic Resources in Corona CA still supports the GA's which are still used in power stations around the world, and in CNC applications. We support a few customers still with SPC-16/440's. Ken Kirkby www.plc-peripherals.com > > Encore Multimax - a massively SMP UNIX box with NS32332s (or 32232's?) > that went up to 40 processors and 128MB of memory in the late 80s, and > ran a Mach-based Unix. I've not yet gotten that up and running, but > I've got install tapes and documentation for it that the SPC-16s don't. > > Another uncommon machine (in model, not in processor architecture) is my > MicroVAX 3520. I'd love to pick up more processor cards for it at some > point and see how many I can get it to happily run with. > > My favorite machines, though definitely not all that rare are my > VAX-11/750 (first ...and only for now... UNIBUS machine) and my IBM > S/390 Gen3 9672-RC4 (which is only 1.5 years away from being "classic" > by the 10 year rule). As soon as I get more unpacked into my new home, > I'll have some time to set up my 11/750 and the Multimax to try and > play with them. > > This reminds me I need to get back to updating my website sometime. > > Pat > -- > The Computer Refuge -- http://computer-refuge.org > Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs > From Adrian at beovax.co.uk Fri Aug 13 05:20:40 2004 From: Adrian at beovax.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: TKQ50 proms Message-ID: <9DB4E1EECB0B8F46825C6B3F4F83FE940958B3@emma.Beovax.Local> Yeah, I saw that somewhere in amongst the other 530 messages I downloaded yesterday :) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 13 August 2004 10:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TKQ50 proms > > > On Aug 12 2004, 20:23, Witchy wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > > > > I'm looking for ROMs (or ROM images would be better) for a TQK50 > > > controller. The ROMs I want are 23-330E5 and 23-331E5. > Can anyone > > > help? > > > > Yep, I'm sure we've got a TQK50 on the shelves in stores; I can pull > it > > and dump the ROMs for you. > > Thanks, but I've now got several copies of both sets of TQK50 > ROMs (23-248E5/23-249E5 and 23-330E5/23-331E5). > > I did mail the list to say I had them now, but perhaps it got > lost amongst the archive messages :-) > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 13 05:53:37 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <411C960C.4010907@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c48123$df316010$3701010a@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Honniball > Sent: 13 August 2004 11:21 > To: General@encke.easily.co.uk; > Discussion@encke.easily.co.uk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > Witchy wrote: > > Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities and > aside from the > > volunteers I suspect they don't have the interest either. > > How about the new computer museum at Swindon? > > http://www.digitalhistory.org.uk/index.php Problem there is it's not really a museum, more an offshoot of the Uni of Bath's library, so if the library ain't open you can't get in. They do have a fairly large hall there though, which may be suitable. They also have a PR company, which is something Bletchley could do with! >here, apart from INMOS. We do have a Concorde museum opening in the next week or two, >though. I'll definitely have to make time to come down and see you then - I'd like to see that! Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 08:51:06 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <411CDED2.24683.144747C6@localhost> References: <411CDED2.24683.144747C6@localhost> Message-ID: <26c11a6404081306513b2d1c67@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:31:30 +0200, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 12 Aug 2004 13:48 meinte Bigum, Henrik: > > But what you had in your hand was a excellent machine, with no comparison at > > that time, think about running multitasking on an 80186 platform, no one > > else, as far I know, has done that. > > Well, the Siemens PC-X Unix Workstation was a 186 :) > > Gruss > H. > -- > VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > So was the RM Nimbus and that run cdos as a cp/m server for allegedly up to 254 machines. Dan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 13 09:26:19 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <1092398719.12178.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001c48141$96488950$3701010a@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 13 August 2004 13:05 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > Not with Bletchley, they don't have the facilities > > Not true there - there are plenty of conference rooms and > halls within the mansion, and the resteraunt / bar Are there? Maybe it's something worth trying with then? Or are we of the assumption that they'd not be bothered at all? > Indeed it was. It was quite an expensive venue for the > weekend though. The Science Museum presumably have conference > halls and the like for hire, but again being in London it's > likely to be expensive... Apparently Fairfield cost ukp19K! Chris must've lost an awful lot of cash, unless he was padded out by Retro Gamer magazine..... Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 13 09:28:33 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <1092399437.12178.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000101c48141$e4bc2790$3701010a@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 13 August 2004 13:17 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > http://www.digitalhistory.org.uk/index.php > > Far as I know, they don't have the room to swing a cat there :-( Not in the 'museum' itself, but there IS a reasonably sized hall at the other end of the building.... Cheers w From psmith at fox19.com Fri Aug 13 10:39:08 2004 From: psmith at fox19.com (Smith, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: MC670P ICs Message-ID: <9469F556BDFB7145848EB329C8CF0FC87CEE95@wxix-mail01.raycommedia.com> Tim, I just saw your e-gram stating you had some MC679P ICs. Is there any chance you still have them? I have some ancient equipment that uses this "coal fired logic" and I recently blew up some chips. Paul K Smith Chief Engineer WXIX-TV (513) 562-2428 From mkmizote at raytheon.com Fri Aug 13 11:44:06 2004 From: mkmizote at raytheon.com (Michael K Mizote) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Pile of Mac IIFX Message-ID: Hello, Do you still have that pile of Mac IIFX's. We may be interested in them if they still work. Thanks. Mike From Gianmario.Scotti at nokia.com Sat Aug 14 07:26:07 2004 From: Gianmario.Scotti at nokia.com (Gianmario.Scotti@nokia.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drives Message-ID: Hello, I know this is a long shot, but I can try: do you still have any of those 8" floppy drives you mentioned in classiccmp.org newsgroup? thanks in advance mario From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 14 10:02:46 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c4820f$c24e7ae0$0400a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 13 August 2004 18:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > http://www.digitalhistory.org.uk/index.php > > "The Museum does not intend to own a collection of exhibits. > Its function will be to act as a showcase for outside exhibitors." > > Sounds like a good venue for the VCF to me! :) Nope, because the room they have for the museum is not really accessible to the public outside working hours and it's only about 30 feet long, also there's no easy access for big iron owing to the size of the doors to get in. If they're allowed to use the main university hall however it's a different matter. Cheers w From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 14 12:58:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation (Mike Ross) In-Reply-To: <002c01c481b3$058221c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > So people actually do leave the hobby? Only the smart ones :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From paulpenn at knology.net Sat Aug 14 13:03:58 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards References: <20040812133952.90574.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005901c48229$125d7040$6401a8c0@knology.net> Rich; These are from a Kaypro PC 286/12, an IBM AT clone. Rather nice machine for its time, with a huge dark gray case. Byte Magazine columnist Jerry Pournelle famously named his "Big Cat". Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Bramante" To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards > pics here: > > http://www.metabarn.com/forsale/pics/#KAY > > Top one has "81-914 REV E" on back. > Bottom one has "81-1590 REV E" and "KV-01" on back. > > Thanks. > > rich From tomj at wps.com Sat Aug 14 13:03:13 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Terminet 200 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092506590.8592.37.camel@fiche> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 05:43, Mike Ross wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3832302264 (Bidding ended, but has been relisted.) THe GE Terminet printer (only) I had was black wrinkle, metal case. About 80 lbs. Most of the ones posted about here are beige 1980's looking things. Does anyone know what the old metal jobs are/were? The mechanism was 80 print hammers with rotating fence of characters. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 14 13:11:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) In-Reply-To: <10408141242.ZM18860@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > registers), though it would on a 6502. If anyone wants a copy I can > give you the Z80 code, some notes from the project writeup, and the > CACM references. Please! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Sat Aug 14 13:12:55 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: ASR-33....its alive (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092507172.8592.43.camel@fiche> On Fri, 2004-08-13 at 12:00, David V. Corbin wrote: > To those who have been following my restoral of an ASR-33 > 1) need a new rubber for the sriker before I destroy the head (and > sources...a "like new" head would also be great.. John's idea. Even the Greenkeys crowd mostly approves of it :-) > 2) Ribbon(s) www.westnc.com and other sources. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 14 13:21:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, John Lawson wrote: > > What a terrific service!!! I'm sure I'll be taking advantage of that > > soon. > > Hey DorkFish! I told you about this a couple of months ago... you're > too young to be getting CRS already... Hmm, a couple months ago puts me smack dab in the middle of a zombie period for me where I was having 12-14-18-20-24-36 hour days. Short-term memory becomes long-term memory with sleep. No sleep, no memory ;) > Seriously, I've used them as well, and nothing beats the price or the > quickness of the service... it's quite amazing. I've had hundreds of > custom panels made by various firms over the years - these guys have it > right! Well, I'm glad they've been around so long. That bodes well for their continued longevity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 14 13:35:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <000001c48141$96488950$3701010a@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Witchy wrote: > Apparently Fairfield cost ukp19K! Chris must've lost an awful lot of > cash, unless he was padded out by Retro Gamer magazine..... Holy crap! That HAD to be a loss. I don't know how a small gamer's show could make money with a bill like that. Either that figure is severely wrong or someone is mortgaging the house right now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 14 14:28:56 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Terminet 200 on ebay References: <1092506590.8592.37.camel@fiche> Message-ID: <008401c48234$f2121c80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Does anyone know what the old metal jobs are/were? There are ads I've seen and scanned from 1974. The model 300 and 1200's are the same ones I had at my first job. Long metal box with a keyboard jutting out of the front and a tiny LED digit displey on the front, between buttons and switches. Kinda "broad shouldered", beyond the sides of the keyboard. John A. From menadeau at comcast.net Sat Aug 14 14:41:02 2004 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: Where to see vintage computers in (your town here) ??? References: <20040813043018.15758.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c48236$a3c925d0$0c01a8c0@Mike> Evan; I can't read any of the text except for the opening page when using Mozilla (Firefox). It works fine with IE. Mozilla is my browser of choice these days because it is very good at blocking spyware, and I suspect a lot of other people are using it. You might want to adjust your background and text color schemes to make the site Mozilla friendly. --Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter" To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 12:30 AM Subject: Where to see vintage computers in (your town here) ??? > Hello fellow collectors, > > There's a new resource for finding places to see antique computers, at the > (updated) web site of the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter. > > The URL remains the same as before (http://news.computercollector.com) but now > there's a much improved section called "On the road" with a directory of > museums and stores. > > I created this page because I keep seeing the same question appear on > classiccmp over and over again, and then I started getting the same question > from newsletter readers too. > > Currently there are 53 listings. Mostly they are museums (some for adults and > some for children) and there are some stores too. In the future, I plan to add > more listings of electronics and surplus stores, swap meets locations, and > bookstores. > > The "On the road" directory and the newsletter itself, which still publishes > every Monday(-ish), are and will always remain free. > > However, I do ask for your help. If you know of any museums, stores that sell > old computers or relevant parts, swap meets, or science/technology bookstores, > no matter how small or out-of-the-way they are, then please tell me. For now > the directory is sorted by U.S. state, but when it becomes more full, I'll > probably make it searchable and also separated by category (museum, store, > etc.)... eventually I'll add non-U.S. locations too. Another idea I have is to > post reviews from people who've been to the locations in person. > > I hope this helps! > > - Evan > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 14 14:48:05 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: He shoots... he scores! In-Reply-To: <200408140939110356.0AF6FF7D@192.168.42.129> References: <001c01c4808e$a6257300$6a00a8c0@charterstl.com> <411BA670.80206@mdrconsult.com> <200408140939110356.0AF6FF7D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <411E6C75.7050804@mdrconsult.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Hi, Jay & Doc, > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 12-Aug-04 at 12:18 Doc Shipley wrote: > >> And, of course, HVD adapters for PC have gotten Very Damned Expensive. > > > If you're nutty enough to buy them new, yes, that's absolutely correct. > > HOWEVER -- I picked up a nice Qlogic PCI HVD SCSI card on E-pay for the stunning total of about $40. > > Right now, in fact, there are three Adaptec AHA-2944UW Diff/Wide/Narrow SCSI cards at 'Buy-it-Now' for $45 each. Here's the links. No, I wouldn't even consider a new one, but even at $40-45, HVD is still relatively expensive. I can reliably get an Adaptec 2940UW, single-ended ultra-wide, for $10 or $15, or a BusLogic UW for $5-10. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 14 14:55:11 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: RQZX1 setup? In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040812213228.01b70cd8@pop.starpower.net> References: <410CA467.8050907@mdrconsult.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040802212509.01b03350@pop.starpower.net> <4117B1DC.5010604@mdrconsult.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040812213228.01b70cd8@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <411E6E1F.40306@mdrconsult.com> Douglas Taylor wrote: >> I had found a couple of pages of the manual and have been able to >> get into the firmware and configure the system **if and only if** a >> TZ30 tape drive is attached. > > > This sounds odd. A TZ30 is holding your system 'hostage'? I've > connected a TZ30 into the scsi bus and didn't noticed anything odd. It's very weird, for sure. >> Even if the controller is set to MSCP on both channels and an >> alternate second CSR address, I can't access the RFM either by the ODT >> method or the BOOT xU253 method, and can't boot from the SCSI disk. > > > If you need more info from the manual I'll scan the table of contents. One of the resellers I trade with is sending me a manual to scan, but thanks. >> This isn't a showstopper, but it is terribly confusing. The person >> from whom I got the switch settings and RFM instructions runs a >> variety of tape devices on his RQZX1 with no problems. > > > What other kinds of tape devices can you use? My HP C1536 DDS1 works fine, and a TZ06 works, as long as the TZ30 is attached. I have an Exabyte 8505XL and a TSZ07 I could try as well, but I don't think it would make much difference. The only thing I haven't tried is disabling the tape channel entirely, booting nad configuring the RQZX1 like that, then re-enabling TMSCP without the TZ30. I'll probably try that out in a week or so, when I get back from AZ. Doc From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 14 14:05:04 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c48231$9baaffe0$0400a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 14 August 2004 19:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > Apparently Fairfield cost ukp19K! Chris must've lost an > awful lot of > > cash, unless he was padded out by Retro Gamer magazine..... > > Holy crap! That HAD to be a loss. I don't know how a small > gamer's show could make money with a bill like that. Either > that figure is severely wrong or someone is mortgaging the > house right now. That was for a lot of stuff though - hire of a lot of the place from Friday lunchtime till Monday lunchtime (ish), all the security, staff and at least 3 big rooms; the hall we were in was big, there was the entire floor at the top of the stairs that I didn't see and another room that I also didn't see, plus the hospitality suite on the top floor. I've been told we had over 700 people in....maybe I should find out how much the tickets were! I'll also double-check with the other exhibitors to see if they were told how much it all was..... Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From cvendel at att.net Sat Aug 14 15:35:55 2004 From: cvendel at att.net (cvendel@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: UV Eraser assistance in NY... Message-ID: <081420042035.26999.411E77AA000D7E4B000069772160375964040A0B020A900C@att.net> Hi, Sorry to post off topic, but I'm in a bit of a bind... Anyone in the Westchester/Putnam area have a spare UV Eraser that they could either loan or trade with me??? I have a project I need to work on and my UV eraser has completely up and died, looks like the transformer and I really need to update some eprom's to complete code testing for work. I a spare VT320, a vaxstation, Atari PC-1 computer, Odyssey2 Video game console and several other items I'd be willing to do a trade for, I also have some tape drives, cd-roms drives and token ring equipment, SCSI cards, older ISA ethernet adapters and so forth if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list if you can help me out, thanks much! Curt cvendel@att.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:33:19 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092515599.13632.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 18:35, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Witchy wrote: > > > Apparently Fairfield cost ukp19K! Chris must've lost an awful lot of > > cash, unless he was padded out by Retro Gamer magazine..... > > Holy crap! That HAD to be a loss. I don't know how a small gamer's > show could make money with a bill like that. Either that figure is > severely wrong or someone is mortgaging the house right now. It wasn't ever planned to make money - Chris is doing some work (network installation and the like I believe) for Fairfield in return for the hire of the venue. I think they took about 5K on the doors from the public, but don't quote me on that. Chris is definitely keen to do the same again next year as he sees it as a success given it's the first year anyone's tried it in the UK; the numbers attending were enough to show that people are interested. Publicity and the like should be better next time around - plus I believe there may be a charge in future for any exhibitors who weren't there for this initial event (again don't quote me on that though; long way to go until the next one! :-) cheers Jules From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:38:26 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:13 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <000101c48231$9baaffe0$0400a8c0@Beovax.Local> References: <000101c48231$9baaffe0$0400a8c0@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <411E7842.40701@frixxon.co.uk> Witchy wrote: >>>Apparently Fairfield cost ukp19K! Chris must've lost an >>>awful lot of >>>cash, unless he was padded out by Retro Gamer magazine..... > > I've been told we had over 700 people in....maybe I should > find out how much the tickets were! Full price tickets were ?7.50. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:39:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <411D4D02.6090103@frixxon.co.uk> References: <200408122020.VAA20179@citadel.metropolis.local> <411D322A.30270.158CD60F@localhost> <411D241F.1000506@jetnet.ab.ca> <1092432997.12178.100.camel@weka.localdomain> <411D4D02.6090103@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1092515990.13632.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-13 at 23:21, Paul Williams wrote: > I went to Bletchley for the first time on Wednesday. Tony Sale was there > and he let us into the machine room. Tony's a good guy - far as I know, most of the plans for Colossus are in his head only and nowhere else :) (Worrying, yes, but technically it's still all classified info anyway) > It was fascinating to be stood > right next to Colossus's "bedstead" as the tape whirred around at 30 > miles per hour, and to see the blinkenlights and valves. It gets very warm in the room from all those valves during the day if the doors aren't left open :) > I bought my cheap return ticket, so I'll make the next trip on a > Saturday to see the Retrobeep collection. (Sorry, I've been repeating > that name to myself in an effort to get used to it, and it _still_ sucks!) I *know*! It was probably the single thing putting me off from starting to help out there way back when :-) Still makes me cringe... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 14 16:05:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <411E7842.40701@frixxon.co.uk> References: <000101c48231$9baaffe0$0400a8c0@Beovax.Local> <411E7842.40701@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040814140337.U83984@shell.lmi.net> > >>>Apparently Fairfield cost ukp19K! Chris must've lost an > >>>awful lot of > >>>cash, unless he was padded out by Retro Gamer magazine..... > > > > I've been told we had over 700 people in....maybe I should > > find out how much the tickets were! > > Full price tickets were ?7.50. Income: 700*7.50 = 5250 Expenses: 19K What are you going to do with all of the profits? From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 16:24:29 2004 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Custom made front panels In-Reply-To: <200408141700.i7EH04bg025910@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040814212429.35884.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I've had Front Panel Express make some things and I think it's worth the price. Real quality work, and nearly what you see on your screen is what you get from UPS. ===== -Steve Loboyko Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie: "When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day." Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 14 16:39:42 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Tek 4115B out there. References: <081420042035.26999.411E77AA000D7E4B000069772160375964040A0B020A900C@att.net> Message-ID: <022201c48247$3652c720$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Tektronix 4115B on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4133748396 Haven't seen more than one or two of these in years, even on eBay. No keyboard. If someone on the list has the KB, I'll buy the 4115. Yea... likely. John A. ex-User, not the seller. From at258 at osfn.org Sat Aug 14 16:50:20 2004 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: The Trip is On... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well I just saw this now, so i figure you've come and gone. Damn. This was just not one of those days when things looked either good or easy. Well another day for the Apollo, THAT can fit in a Saturn, not so sure about the IBM printer though. That probably needs a trailer. On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > And off I go...Traveling up to Wayland to pick up a Teletype, LSI-11, VT-52, > Assorted Documentation, Commodore 64 Items, and other Misc Stop. Going to > hopefully stop in RI and pick up an Apollo, IBM Printer and some other > items. > > Most of the known items are already spoke for by some list members, but I > will post and additional items that are not on "our" keep list early next > week. > > Thanks to Jays wonderful advice, I have checked the spare, and even bought a > can of "fix-a-flat" (Plus I am AAA)..... > > If there is anyone in CT, RI, or South East MA that has computer equipment > they are looking to dispose of, send me an e-mail...mayby the traveling van > can stop buy you this weekend [send me a direct e-mail] > > Of course if you have a PDP-8, TU-56 or relased items, the van WILL stop buy > (even if just to oogle) and will have cash! > > David > > > -- M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 14 16:58:41 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Tek 4115B out there. In-Reply-To: <022201c48247$3652c720$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <081420042035.26999.411E77AA000D7E4B000069772160375964040A0B020A900C@att.net> <022201c48247$3652c720$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <33037.192.168.1.10.1092520721.squirrel@server.inet> John Allain said: > Tektronix 4115B on eBay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4133748396 > Haven't seen more than one or two of these in years, even on eBay. Good grief. It looks very like a thing I hauled two of, from the local dump. The ones we found had huge graphics boards, and a 286 and 287 cpu. Don't know if they're exactly the same. Gordon. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 14 17:52:16 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 Message-ID: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I got a single ended interface for the 9914... but I'm having fits getting my system to work with it. Anyone really up on these? Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 14 17:58:18 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Where to see vintage computers in (your town here) ??? In-Reply-To: <003501c48236$a3c925d0$0c01a8c0@Mike> References: <20040813043018.15758.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <003501c48236$a3c925d0$0c01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <200408141758.18853.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 14 August 2004 14:41, Michael Nadeau wrote: > Evan; > > I can't read any of the text except for the opening page when using > Mozilla (Firefox). It works fine with IE. Mozilla is my browser of > choice these days because it is very good at blocking spyware, and I > suspect a lot of other people are using it. You might want to adjust > your background and text color schemes to make the site Mozilla > friendly. > > --Mike Works fine for me in konqueror, but not firefox... something (bad html?) is setting the background of the table cell to blue where the text is blue. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From evan947 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 18:02:20 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Fixed! RE: Where to see vintage computers in (your town here) ??? Message-ID: <20040814230220.97604.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> The site now works properly on Mozilla and Navigator. Personally I use Opera, where it also works fine. For those who missed the original email, here's the scoop: I recently update the site http://news.computercollector.com (the informational page for my weekly email magazine), and there's now a new "On the road" section where you can find places to see vintage computers all around America. - Evan From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Aug 14 18:13:17 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 In-Reply-To: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > I got a single ended interface for the 9914... but I'm having fits getting > my system to work with it. Anyone really up on these? "fits" = ...? Might help in diagnosing... Cheerz John From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 14 18:23:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <1092515599.13632.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris is definitely keen to do the same again next year as he sees it as > a success given it's the first year anyone's tried it in the UK; the > numbers attending were enough to show that people are interested. Do you have an idea as to actual attendance figures? > Publicity and the like should be better next time around - plus I > believe there may be a charge in future for any exhibitors who weren't > there for this initial event (again don't quote me on that though; long > way to go until the next one! :-) Publicity is always the hardest part. Unless you have a ton of money to spend on it, guerilla tactics are your only hope. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 18:28:16 2004 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Tek 4115B out there In-Reply-To: <200408142316.i7ENG9bg029992@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040814232816.61984.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> I have one of these, unused(!) from a gov't auction (a spare, I think). I played with it a little, and then it stopped working but it might have been something I screwed up with a DIP switch. I have the entire unit with keyboard, manuals, etc; in storage, one of the caster legs broke. If someone actually wants (parts) of this, I would trade/sell it for a little more than shipping (it's really big and its impossible to ship the monitor or whole thing); otherwise, I was planning of getting rid of all of it in the fall. It has no 8" drives, just the housing. Wow-it's an incredible, overdesigned machine, with a fairly interesting automatic convergence system. For what it does, it's too large for me! John Allain Said: >Tektronix 4115B on eBay >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4133748396 >Haven't seen more than one or two of these in years, even on eBay. >No keyboard. >If someone on the list has the KB, I'll buy the 4115. Yea... likely. >John A. >ex-User, not the seller. ===== -Steve Loboyko Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie: "When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day." Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tomj at wps.com Sat Aug 14 19:29:12 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Terminet 200 on ebay In-Reply-To: <008401c48234$f2121c80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <1092506590.8592.37.camel@fiche> <008401c48234$f2121c80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1092529750.8592.434.camel@fiche> On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 12:28, John Allain wrote: > > Does anyone know what the old metal jobs are/were? > > There are ads I've seen and scanned from 1974. > The model 300 and 1200's are the same ones I had at my > first job. Ahh, sounds about right. Terminet 300 I think it was. > Long metal box with a keyboard jutting out > of the front and a tiny LED digit displey on the front, > between buttons and switches. Sounds like a "KSR" model; mine was "RO", no keyboard, printer only. I liked the thing, I loved its irritating stochastic noise. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 14 20:25:42 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote... > "fits" = ...? > > Might help in diagnosing... Sorry, was a bit flustered. I had switched the card in the tape drive from a differential to a single ended one. One of the problems apparently was my 9914 had been set to ignore settings on the card, and to use NVRAM instead. So I changed diag 67, opt 13, bit 4 and it rescanned the card. After solving a stupid (on my part) termination problem, the host now sees the drive (and everything else on the chain, both int. & ext.) just fine. The host can read and write data (tars, cpios, etc.) at both 800 and 1600 bpi. Any attempts to write at 3200 or 6250 fail. So... I went to diagnostics, the confidence test (01). Here's what I get (note, the confidence test tries 6250, 3200, 1600, 800, in that order).... (displays 6250) F19 Er98 (humm I thought this test was for pertec interface only) (I hit diag and run, to continue on) F26 Er02 (I hit diag and run, to continue on) F29 Er02 (I hit diag and run...) F28 Er02 (I hit diag and run... the display shows 3200 but no tape motion, then goes immediately to 1600, then it moves the tape a lot, displays 800, moves the tape more, then displays Pass98). So it seems the unit has trouble with 6250, doesn't seem to even try 3200, but 800 and 1600 work fine (in the diag, as well as testing from the host). Any ideas? Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 14 20:44:01 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 In-Reply-To: <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <411EBFE1.3050907@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > John wrote... > So it seems the unit has trouble with 6250, doesn't seem to even try 3200, > but 800 and 1600 work fine (in the diag, as well as testing from the host). > > Any ideas? Cheesy/worn media? I'd be for borrowing a differential SCSI adapter and trying the original setup. Then again, I haven't even put power to my shiny new tabletop IBM 9-track, because I can't find docs anywhere. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 14 21:10:42 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <411EBFE1.3050907@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000b01c4826d$11a504d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Cheesy/worn media? Nah, I tried two different tapes, both are brand new out of the box still shrinkwrapped, and I had cleaned the heads twice over the past two days. > I'd be for borrowing a differential SCSI adapter and trying the > original setup. I may give that a whirl, but... since the drive and host are definitely working fine at 800/1600, and because the drives offline diags (not involving the host) fail at 3200 and 6250, I don't think it's the interface in the drive. Maybe I'm missing something? Jay From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 14 21:28:49 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 In-Reply-To: <000b01c4826d$11a504d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <411EBFE1.3050907@mdrconsult.com> <000b01c4826d$11a504d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <411ECA61.4090903@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: >> Cheesy/worn media? > > Nah, I tried two different tapes, both are brand new out of the box still > shrinkwrapped, and I had cleaned the heads twice over the past two days. > > >> I'd be for borrowing a differential SCSI adapter and trying the >>original setup. > > I may give that a whirl, but... since the drive and host are definitely > working fine at 800/1600, and because the drives offline diags (not > involving the host) fail at 3200 and 6250, I don't think it's the interface > in the drive. Maybe I'm missing something? The only thing I can really think of would be a mechanical issue, like jerky or inconsistent tape movement at higher speed. But even that wouldn't explain the fact that it doesn't even try at 3200bpi. The reason I suggested replacing the diff interface card is that I've mixed and matched the internal boards in the old Exabyte EXB-8200 8mm drives and gotten really weird behavior. If the firmware revs in the contributing drives weren't _very_ close, it was a crapshoot. I have no idea if that could be the case with your drive. I do diagnostics from a very low-tech perspective. If Device X was working or supposedly working before I altered it and it doesn't work now, I figure the odds are high that the alteration is a contributing factor. If I don't have the docs or the equipment to do more specific testing, going back to the original configuration is my first step. Doc From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Aug 14 21:32:32 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 In-Reply-To: <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > > (displays 6250) > F19 Er98 (humm I thought this test was for pertec interface only) > (I hit diag and run, to continue on) > F26 Er02 > (I hit diag and run, to continue on) > F29 Er02 > (I hit diag and run...) > F28 Er02 > (I hit diag and run... the display shows 3200 but no tape motion, then goes > immediately to 1600, > then it moves the tape a lot, displays 800, moves the tape more, then > displays Pass98). Well - first off I am having Trouble locating my .pdfof the M4 Manual - which I know I had at one time, but it's been a while - so still searching... Second, I did the same set-up as you did, and my machine displays the exact sequence of error messages that you get. Then, I de-mounted the test-reel(a 10" 6250 certified, very-neraly-new reel) and put on a write-enable ring... and the error sequence narrowed down to F29 and F28 - but the tape moved more, including the 3200 pass, and the lower speed passes were extensive - culminating, like you, in a "Pass98" So I'm not sure if these are errors per-se, or just maybe options not installed - I dunno. The best thing is find, and then RTFM.... if I can't locate mine, I'll see if the person I bought it from still has the file - I guess M4 are no longer in business, however there seems to be no lack of companies selling and/or servicing these rigs, so Da Book shouldn't be all that hard to find... although I don't think it'll be free... sigh. ;} Cheers John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 14 21:42:40 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001f01c48271$88d321f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Well - first off I am having Trouble locating my .pdfof the M4 Manual - > which I know I had at one time, but it's been a while - so still > searching... Which M4 manual... one is at: http://www.m4data.com/Support/Files/9914/123477_23%209914_User_Diagnostic%20Man.pdf I have a few others I've been skimming, but haven't found the answers yet. > Second, I did the same set-up as you did, and my machine displays the > exact sequence of error messages that you get. Then, I de-mounted the > test-reel(a 10" 6250 certified, very-neraly-new reel) and put on a > write-enable ring... and the error sequence narrowed down to F29 and F28 > - but the tape moved more, including the 3200 pass, and the lower speed > passes were extensive - culminating, like you, in a "Pass98" You mean your test-reel didn't have a write wring? What you describe seems odd to me. > So I'm not sure if these are errors per-se, or just maybe options not > installed - I dunno. That's just wierd. You would think if those error stops were common, due to options, that it would be documented. Well, that makes me feel better, but I wonder why the host has failure writing at 3200/6250, but 800/1600 is fine. Wierd! > The best thing is find, and then RTFM.... if I can't locate mine, I'll > see if the person I bought it from still has the file - I guess M4 are no > longer in business, however there seems to be no lack of companies selling > and/or servicing these rigs, so Da Book shouldn't be all that hard to > find... although I don't think it'll be free... sigh. ;} M4 has been taken over by another company, and they sell/support them. Still skimming the docs... Jay From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Aug 14 22:14:41 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: m4 9914 In-Reply-To: <001f01c48271$88d321f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004901c48251$596c7b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000c01c48266$c81fd160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001f01c48271$88d321f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jay West wrote: > http://www.m4data.com/Support/Files/9914/123477_23%209914_User_Diagnostic%20Man.pdf I'll download this... thanks! > > I have a few others I've been skimming, but haven't found the answers yet. > I'd like the URLs to those, too, if possible - I was sure I had the full docs - but it is likely that they were paper and went with the previous M4 to Munich... > You mean your test-reel didn't have a write wring? What you describe seems > odd to me. And why is that? My results were *identical* to yours, then I thought to check for the ring, it was not in place, I put one on, then re-ran the tests, and the results were more 'positive' for want of a better word. I still got the two errors you did - dunno what they are just now... > > That's just wierd. You would think if those error stops were common, due to > options, that it would be documented. Well, that makes me feel better, but I > wonder why the host has failure writing at 3200/6250, but 800/1600 is fine. > Wierd! I've run tapes on my laptop, using Novastor and an Adaptec 1200-series SCSI card - but I"ve never tried anything higher than 1600, which is what the tapes I was reading were written at. On my Vaxstation 3100/38 - again I've never asked it to go fast, so the tapes I've written under VMS have all been at the 1600 BPI range... > M4 has been taken over by another company, and they sell/support them. Still > skimming the docs... I should do that, too... Cheers John From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 15 04:27:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: Tek 4115B out there In-Reply-To: <20040814232816.61984.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Loboyko Steve wrote: > I have one of these, unused(!) from a gov't auction (a spare, I think). > I played with it a little, and then it stopped working but it might have > been something I screwed up with a DIP switch. I have the entire unit > with keyboard, manuals, etc; in storage, one of the caster legs broke. > If someone actually wants (parts) of this, I would trade/sell it for a > little more than shipping (it's really big and its impossible to ship > the monitor or whole thing); otherwise, I was planning of getting rid of > all of it in the fall. It has no 8" drives, just the housing. Wow-it's > an incredible, overdesigned machine, with a fairly interesting automatic > convergence system. For what it does, it's too large for me! Steve, Please don't just pitch it. I'm sure someone will want it, and it *can* be shipped. You just need to be shown the way. Contact me for enlightenment... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 15 05:41:31 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092566490.21120.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 23:23, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Chris is definitely keen to do the same again next year as he sees it as > > a success given it's the first year anyone's tried it in the UK; the > > numbers attending were enough to show that people are interested. > > Do you have an idea as to actual attendance figures? Unfortunately not; when I saw him at the end of the Saturday estimates were looking to be somewhere around the 700 mark, based on the first day figures. Not sure what the final total for the weekend was, though. I suppose it doesn't sound like a lot, but then given it was the first one of its kind in the UK and therefore under-publicised (plus both exhibitors and public alike were taking a bit of a gamble on coming) it did quite well. Various press and TV crews seemed to be there during the weekend, so next year's should be a lot better. >From an exhibitor's point of view the attendance figures were quite nice though - busy enough to be talking for 95% of the day but not so overcrowded as to be uncomfortable. Ratio of exhibitors to public was about spot-on I'd say. Actually, maybe combining the next CGE-UK event with the possible VCF UK makes some sense in terms of costs, publicity etc. Certainly there's some overlap between the two - we (as in Bletchley) had all sorts of 'static' bits and pieces at CGE-UK which weren't directly related to gaming (bits of Colossus, old disk platters, card punches etc.) and they attracted a huge amount of interest from the public. Seems like the gaming public were keen to see the old stuff, and I imagine VCF attendees aren't against playing a few of the old classics :-) cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 14 17:11:11 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <411E7842.40701@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c4824b$9b643410$0400a8c0@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Williams > Sent: 14 August 2004 21:38 > To: General@jupiter.easily.co.uk; > Discussion@jupiter.easily.co.uk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) > > > I've been told we had over 700 people in....maybe I should > > find out how much the tickets were! > > Full price tickets were ?7.50. That tallies with Jules' estimations then; it's a pity you weren't at Bletchley last weekend since both of us were there and we could've given you a guided tour! You'd still be talking about it now though..... That reminds me I haven't posted the page of machine pictures from the storage area I took. Some good stuff in there from an early Acorn Atom, BBC Model A, boxed (WOW!) Northstar Horizon metal case, other Northstar stuff including 3 wooden cased machines, PDP 11/10, PDP 11/40, a few PDP 8s, Custom case (UNIQUE! Etc) Compukit UK101, totally boffin'd out Ohio Scientific and a general view of the museum itself. Hopefully it's on this machine I'm typing on now. Cheers w From m_thompson at ids.net Sat Aug 14 18:37:38 2004 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: The Trip is On... In-Reply-To: References: <20040814025113.GA477@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20040814193738.00a7d8d0@155.212.1.107> I live about 10 miles south of TF Green airport just off of I-95. If you are interested in some free Sun Microsystems SS-10s, IPC, IPX, or LX systems let me know. At 11:19 PM 8/13/2004 -0400, you wrote: >And off I go...Traveling up to Wayland to pick up a Teletype, LSI-11, VT-52, >Assorted Documentation, Commodore 64 Items, and other Misc Stop. Going to >hopefully stop in RI and pick up an Apollo, IBM Printer and some other >items. > >Most of the known items are already spoke for by some list members, but I >will post and additional items that are not on "our" keep list early next >week. > >Thanks to Jays wonderful advice, I have checked the spare, and even bought a >can of "fix-a-flat" (Plus I am AAA)..... > >If there is anyone in CT, RI, or South East MA that has computer equipment >they are looking to dispose of, send me an e-mail...mayby the traveling van >can stop buy you this weekend [send me a direct e-mail] > >Of course if you have a PDP-8, TU-56 or relased items, the van WILL stop buy >(even if just to oogle) and will have cash! > >David > > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson@IDS.net From dougjensen at sprint.ca Sat Aug 14 21:35:38 2004 From: dougjensen at sprint.ca (D Jensen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: More Goodies from the Silicon Valley Refugee Message-ID: <083301c48271$3820b740$53536395@win98> Hi please reply as to yes/no availability. Thanks Doug. C-64 Speech synthesizer cartridge - $5 each "Voice Messenger", by Currah Technologies. I have 2 of these, still shrinkwapped. Uses a hardware synthesizer chip (SSI263??), and has an extension ROM that adds speech functions to the built-in BASIC. The first buyer gets a free light pen that plugs into the joystick port, but has no docs or software unless I get a surprise while sorting through my old files. My recollection is that there's a photodiode in it that generates an interrupt when the CRT beam sweeps past it. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 15 10:46:07 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (rcini@optonline.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: More Goodies from the Silicon Valley Refugee Message-ID: <12208dd121f702.121f70212208dd@optonline.net> I would be interested in one. ----- Original Message ----- From: D Jensen Date: Saturday, August 14, 2004 10:35 pm Subject: More Goodies from the Silicon Valley Refugee > Hi please reply as to yes/no availability. > > Thanks > > Doug. > > > > C-64 Speech synthesizer cartridge - $5 each > "Voice Messenger", by Currah Technologies. I have 2 of these, > still shrinkwapped. Uses a hardware synthesizer chip (SSI263??), > and has an extension ROM that adds speech functions to the > built-in > BASIC. The first buyer gets a free light pen that plugs into the > joystick port, but has no docs or software unless I get a surprise > while sorting through my old files. My recollection is that > there's a photodiode in it that generates an interrupt when the > CRT beam > sweeps past it. > > > From mross666 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 15 10:47:53 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:14 2005 Subject: System/32 update Message-ID: On Mon, 2004-08-09 at 19:22, Mike Ross wrote: >On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > > >>how about a Univac 90 30 ? > >> > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 > > > >Mmmmm. Nice. I hope someone in the UK can grab this. > >Consider it grabbed. I'm in the USA, but I'll go back home to Britland to >grab that! Spoke too soon... two newly-registered zero-feedback bidders have run the price up to nearly $2000. Bugger that for a game of soldiers - I smell a rat! If anyone else wants to risk getting ripped-off, feel free. I'm outa here. Mike http://www.corestore.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 15 10:54:27 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408130936.i7D9aDU07859@ngatoro.six.net.au> References: <200408130936.i7D9aDU07859@ngatoro.six.net.au> Message-ID: <200408151054.27935.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 31 December 1969 19:00, Ken Kirkby wrote: > > > response here.> > > > > I've got a few "rare" machines, but they mostly seem to come out of > > some sort of "scientific instrumentation". A vector-based computer > > that processed NMR data - an Aspect 3000, some machines made by > > Nicolet and others, etc. > > > > Some of my favorite "rarer" machines are my General Automation > > SPC-16/40 and /45 (which are neither complete nor functional right > > now ): It was a machine targeted where the Data General Nova was > > targeted (a general purpose 16bit machine in the early 70s). > > Industrial Electronic Resources in Corona CA still supports the GA's > which are still used in power stations around the world, and in CNC > applications. We support a few customers still with SPC-16/440's. I was wondering why I didn't come across them while trying to find info using google... and now have discovered that they don't seem to have a web site. Do you think there's any possibility of getting a (set of) schematic(s) from them, or at least some sort of service manual (preferably not a board-swappers guide)? That's the one thing I don't have that would be useful to get them up and running. Well, that and a replacement frontpanel for the one that got thrown away, but I'm not sure I want to spend what they'll want for it... assuming they even have one. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:32:06 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: m4 9914 In-Reply-To: <411ECA61.4090903@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Aug 14, 4 09:28:49 pm Message-ID: > > The reason I suggested replacing the diff interface card is that I've > mixed and matched the internal boards in the old Exabyte EXB-8200 8mm > drives and gotten really weird behavior. If the firmware revs in the > contributing drives weren't _very_ close, it was a crapshoot. I have no > idea if that could be the case with your drive. > > I do diagnostics from a very low-tech perspective. If Device X was > working or supposedly working before I altered it and it doesn't work > now, I figure the odds are high that the alteration is a contributing Err, yes... Hence my feeling that swapping boards, unless you have a very good idea that they are compatible, is a very bad idea. I've actually had to sort out machines where some idiot has swapped boards for totally incoompatible ones (i.e. swapping an RQDX1 with an RQDX3) and not bothering to tell me. After I've found the real fault (in the aforementioned machine it was stiction between the hard disk heads and platters), I then have to figure out just what else has been done. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 15 21:36:52 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: UV Eraser assistance in NY... In-Reply-To: <081420042035.26999.411E77AA000D7E4B000069772160375964040A0B020A900C@att.net> Message-ID: > Anyone in the Westchester/Putnam area have a spare UV Eraser that they > could either loan or trade with me??? I have a project I need to work > on and my UV eraser has completely up and died, looks like the > transformer and I really need to update some eprom's to complete code > testing for work. I might be late for the request, but if I can find it, I'll run it over to you. I suppose I will need it back eventually, but no big hurry. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 15 21:47:21 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: UV Eraser assistance in NY... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I might be late for the request, but if I can find it, I'll run it over to > you. I suppose I will need it back eventually, but no big hurry. Oops, sorry, supposed to be private. If anyone cares. Anyway, I found the damn thing. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 00:43:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: VCF UK? (was Re: VCF West hotel) In-Reply-To: <1092566490.21120.21.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Actually, maybe combining the next CGE-UK event with the possible VCF UK > makes some sense in terms of costs, publicity etc. Certainly there's > some overlap between the two - we (as in Bletchley) had all sorts of > 'static' bits and pieces at CGE-UK which weren't directly related to > gaming (bits of Colossus, old disk platters, card punches etc.) and they > attracted a huge amount of interest from the public. Seems like the > gaming public were keen to see the old stuff, and I imagine VCF > attendees aren't against playing a few of the old classics :-) Yes, it can work. We teamed up one year with the California Extreme arcade/pinball show and it worked out fairly well. We should discuss this further offline. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 05:26:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Quotations From Chairman Morrow Message-ID: I located and transcribed a copy of "Quotations from Chairman Morrow", a collection of things that George Morrow of Morrow Designs said over the years he was in the computer business, for Fred. Morrow died earlier this year of cancer. He had been out of computers entirely and was into collecting LPs. He was a good guy. I'm posting this here because there are some gems in there, and some stuff is still relevant. It's also an interesting take on the 1980s microcomputer business. This text is hard to find, so posting it here will make it easier to find for people and hopefully preserve it. I typed it in basically as it was typeset. Numbers preceding each section are actual page numbers in the original booklet. I'm pretty sure I got all the typos, but if you find one please let me know. Enjoy! COMPUTER USERS OF THE WORLD UNITE! QUOTATIONS FROM CHAIRMAN MORROW MORROW DESIGNS PRESS, SAN LEANDRO, CALIFORNIA First Edition: November 1984 Copyright (C) 1984 by Morrow Designs Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this publication can be reproduced without prior written permission of Morrow Designs Inc. Individual quotations can be used at any time with standard attribution. Quotations By GEORGE MORROW Introduction By JOHN C. DVORAK (Portrait of George Morrow) Introduction Morrow: Mayo to Mao It started when George Morrow was a young fry-cook. He had a spoonful of mayonnaise in one hand and a piece of bread in the other. "Hey, I can't do this all my life. Besides the fact that I can't tell good food from bad, this job is boring. I'm going to be an engineer," he thought to himself. So young George pursued the life of an intellectual. For awhile he took engineering, but he figured that to fully understand engineering he needed to know physics. He changed his major to physics. Soon he figured that to fully understand physics he needed to know mathematics. He changed his major to math. Just as he was about to get his PhD in math, he figured that to fully understand mathematics he needed to know philosophy. So he quit and went to work in the semiconductor business. "Otherwise, I would have never gotten out of school," he recalls. Working for William Shockley gave George more insight into philosophy than any college curriculum. It must have. George Morrow has become the top philosopher in microcomputerdom. If you're in the newspaper business, George is the guy to call when you need a quote. Some time back, Adam Osborne was the most quotable, with guys like Seymour Rubinstein and a few others occasionally coming up with a zinger or two. But over the years, Morrow has outdistanced them all. Enough to fill a book--a little red book. I recommend you take this little red book and hunt down George and make him autograph it. It's an obvious collector's item, and it will probably be worth a fortune someday. When you corner George for the autograph ask him about his sugar to gross national product theory. He's convinced there's a direct relationship between sugar consumption and gross national product. George is a little embarrassed by this book, I'm told (by George himself). His public relations firm in cahoots with the staff made him agree to it. You see, George is an interesting guy and these quotes are great, but George thinks it detracts from the great equipment that the company manufactures. You know, takes away from the seriousness of it all. Then again, maybe George feels obliged to be humble. After all, how many little red books are there in history? None as good as this one. John C. Dvorak Berkeley, California October 10, 1984 Contents SOFTWARE 1 PROOGRAMMERS 5 THE INDUSTRY 9 COMPUTER DESIGN 21 BUYING COMPUTERS 27 SELLING COMPUTERS 33 CREATIVITY 41 BUSINESS/FINANCE 49 MISCELLANEOUS 55 1 Software 2 Hardware is just a pernicious little thing required to allow software to solve the application problem. Good software is software that succeeds without having to work hard in the marketplace. 'Self-teaching software' is an oxymoron--like 'military intelligence' and 'postal service.' The only industrial costs software companies have is the printing of serial numbers. What drives the prices so high is thievery. 3 Instruction sets have eternal life; once created, they never disappear. So a programmable instruction set is critical to the health of the industry. The user world would be better served if it could run software without hardware. The floppy disk and its incorporation into microcomputers has been responsible for all the software innovation that's taken place in the last five years. 4 The formula for a successful software product: It has to be technically excellent but user-hostile; that way all the consultants and software cognoscenti can write about it and feel they're making a contribution. Without the proper software, computers make very good bookends. 5 Programmers 6 Programmers are like rock stars. But with rock stars, at least you get to hear the song before you buy the record. A programmer spends six months tuning his instrument and, whether it works or not, you're paying the whole time. There's been no real change in progrmammer productivity since compilers were developed in the 1950s. Software hasn't kept up with hardware in terms of productivity improvement. 7 The key to increasing programmer productivity is universal software that runs in a wide variety of hardware environments. This will keep the programmer from having to re-invent the wheel every time a new piece of hardware comes along. Ninety percent of the software gets written in 10 percent of the time. The next 9.5 percent takes 90 percent of the time. The last one-half percent never gets done. But the software still gets solds. 8 A good programmer can only write about 250 lines of code a day. Programming speed is a universal constant. Something like the speed of light, but a lot slower. Programmers stand on the toes of those who came before them. Anyone who trusts a programmer deserves what happens to him. 9 The Industry 10 Computer companies are like desert flowers--they bloom overnight and they're gone. Manufacturers have a responsibility to ther customers to promote the use of standards. That's the only way to bring volumes up and costs down. It is the user's responsibility to promote standards. Companies that try to set their own standards should not be rewarded by getting the users' dollars. 11 'Immediate delivery' means 'we have working prototypes.' Products should die a graceful death and move on. Hanging on is a disservice to the marketplace. Adam Osborne was initially successful not because he introduced portability, but because he provided utility through bundled software. To be successful, a product must satisfy a need in the market by providing utility where there was none before. 12 Being in the microcomputer business is like going 55 miles an hour three feet from a cliff. If you make the wrong turn you're bankrupt so fast you don't know what hit you. But if you make the right turn you're on a rocket with people throwing money at you. As long as product technology is changing the Japanese can't get into the market. But let the technology settle down into a well-defined market and God help you if you're an American manufacturer getting into it today because you're going to get run over flat. Just look at what happened with 5-1/4 inch floppy drives. 13 If you want to get into the marketplace with IBM it's kind of like going to a movie--a beautifully attractive movie that you can really get into. They put you in this nice chair and say 'please sit down and be comfortable.' You're probably a little bit nervious when you first go in, but the service is so great, the surroundings are so great, the drugs are so great, you think, why not relax and enjoy it. Meanwhile, what's going on up above you is that thuis huge weight is slowly being positioned and there's a guy calling down, 'How heavy do we need to make it? We want to make sure when we drop it he's totally flat and there's no way for him to crawl out from underneath. Are you over him now? He's comfortable? 14 He's not going to jump? He's unconscious? Okay.' Kachunk. And if you don't believe that, all you have to do is look at Memorex. Or Storage Technology. Apple created a problem for the industry by attracting the attention of companies like IBM and Radio Shack. Before Apple became big and successful, the big companies sneered and held their noses whenever the word 'microcomputer' was mentioned. 15 IBM came into the personal computer market when Apple threatened their base--when they saw Apple start selling into business, into the corporate environment, especially to run VisiCalc. If Commodore had done what Chuck Peddle put it in a position to do, there would be no such thing as Apple today. There'd be no such thing as Radio Shack. Commodore would completely own the market. 16 Three major factors made the personal computer happen. One was the microprocessor -- taking the power of a computer and putting it on a piece of silicon. The others were cheap semiconductor memory and cheap mass memory -- floppy disks. Not much has happened since then. Microprocessors and semiconductor memory have just gotten bigger. 17 The microcomputer market started because there was a pent-up demand for computers. The first users were willing to do virtually anything to have a computer around--put together kits, form clubs. Next came a slightly less technical group, which still was willing to do a lot of programming to make their computers breathe. And then, instead of moving to the home, as many of us thought, the market moved into small business. 18 In the early days of the microcomputer industry, you came up with a product concept, took out an ad, got some money from orders, began to develop the product, did some more advertising. If you where really lucky, you could ship the product before people realized it had just been a figment of your imagination when you first talked about it. Today the microcomputer industry is like the fashion industry; products are only good for seven or eight months. If skirts are going up, you can always re-hem. If they're going the other way, you've got the wrong product. 19 The problem with the semiconductor industry is that theit vision is very short. In bad times they'd fire whole departments to cut costs. So engineers developed a loyalty not to individual companies, but to the industry. Once the Japanese start building your product for you, they don't know how to stop. If the market changes, you're stuck with a huge inventory. A consultant is someone who's called in when someone has painted himself into a corner. He's expected to levitate his client out of that corner. 20 Market research is a major area of abuse. It is responsible for the overcrowded Winchester disk drive market. Early market researchers called up all the companies making Winchsesters and asked them their assessment of the market; then they published a report and sent it back to the vendors. The conservative ones saw from the report that they'd underestimated the market. So the next time the researchers called them, they inflated the numbers. It finally dawned on them that they were buying their own garbage. I believe in standards. Everyone should have one. 21 Computer Design 22 The computer's hardware is its body. The software is its soul. In the early days of the personal computer industry, hardware and software were completely separate disciplines, both emotionally and technically. One didn't mix the two. You did something either in hardware or in software. Sixteen-bit machines are important because of their technological sizzle; eight-bit systems are important because you can build them cheap. 23 Sixteen bits for the sake of 16 bits is an engineer's approach to products. There's an unwritten rule in the computer industry that says each new product must have special bells and whistles to spark the customer's interest. This has kept costs high and made the buyer pay for benefits of questionable value. Customers in the low-end segment of the market have been victimized by vendors who concentrate on product differentiation for its own sake instead of on what those customers really need. 24 The engineer who gets carried away with bells and whistles should be required to spend time in the customer service department--then he can see what it's like to support those additional features he's dreamed up. The formula for a successful hardware product: take a technology that can't fail but that is too immature for a big company like IBM to be comfortable with, and run with it. Using liquid crystal displays on portable computers is a current example. Tooling is an opportunity to waste money. 25 One of the great mysteries of life is how the printer and computer get hooked together. Mediocrity or adequacy is all most people need in a computer. Successful products are simple products. If George Lucas designed a lunch pail for Darth Vader, it would look like a Kaypro. 26 27 Buying Computers 28 The most important thing in buying computer hardware is to buy as little as possible. The less you buy at a given time, the more you'll be informed about what to do next. Small computers let you computerize in small clumps. You find out right away what will work and what won't. If it doesn't work you've wasted $2,500; that's better than spending $50,000 and wasting the time of a whole department. 29 Always use the 6-18 month rule in buying a computer. It takes about six months to bring a user up to speed on a new machine, so the system can't be expected to pay for itself before that. On the other hand, if it hasn't paid for itself in 18 months, it shouldn't have been purchased in the first place. Technology is changing so rapidly that a user should consider his needs only as far as 18 months down the road. Then he can upgrade, taking advantage of the knowledge he's gained by experimenting with his first system. Short-sightedness is a virtue when it comes to choosing a computer system. Know what you need now--not two years from now. 30 A user should need at least two applications before he purchases a computer. Every small business in this country needs at least two computers. Choose your hardware only after you've chosen your software; the complexity of the software will determine the appropriate hardware. The more exotic a user's software needs, the more expensive the hardware will be. 31 The user's only interest in a CPU should be whether or not his software will run on it. Memory and peripherals, however, are much more important because they determine how much you can do and how fast you can do it. People who call systems user-friendly don't know what the first-time user thinks about. You never know what to spend on a computer until after you've spent it. 32 About 35 percent of the people who buy computers don't need them. They're potentially unhappy users who'll spread bad news about computers. If you're spending your own money on a computer, shop arouund for the best value. If you're spending your company's money, buy IBM; that's the safe route. 33 Selling Computers 34 Bundling software with hardware lets the customer 'test-drive' the computer so he knows how it'll work before he buys. That means security. Computer distribution channels are not well. Sixty percent of their business has gone away and it's not coming back. Today the government and big corporations are buying direct from the IBMs, Sperrys, the Burroughs, the ITTs. 35 There's a difference between computer dealers and office equipment dealers... At COMDEX (Computer Dealers Exposition) you introduce a product and computer dealers will attack you...they're turned on by technology. At NOMDA (National Office Machines Dealers Assn.) the guy strolling by looks at the booth and says "Ah, computers...we'll have to get into that some day." Office supply dealers should become more venturesome, computer dealers more cautious. 36 Computers should be made affordable to the mass market. Computer makers should first decide what prices will make this possible, then find ways to build computers that can be sold for those prices. In the old days, our customers were as technically competent as we were, or more so. They bought from us because they had an emotional need to have a computer. Today's customers are less technically aware. They buy machines because they think they can do something practical with them. We have to show them it's worth the price. 37 We're not selling toothpaste or bubble gum or soft drinks, in which there's no difference in the basic product from one year to another except packaging. We're selling technology, and there's a difference. Look at Detroit. In the early days, the auto industry was run by engineers and technical types. It was only later, to squeeze every last dollar out of profit, that they brought in the bean-counters. And as soon as they did that, Japan came in, and there wasn't anything left. 38 Not everybody needs a computer. If a dealer sells one of my computers to the wrong person, my reputation and the dealer's are on the line. Only two groups benefit--the phone company and United Parcel Service. All the computers that have been sold so far have been sold to people who knew they wanted computers. That market is saturated. The real test will be our ability to sell to people who have never had a burning desire to own a computer because they didn't know what they could use it for. 39 Adam Osborne was the first hardware manufacturer to recognize what bundling software could do for the user. I watched what he did and figured that if a little software was good, a lot would be even better. With bundled machines you can throw away the hardware and keep the software, and it's still a good buy. 40 41 Creativity 42 The most valuable thing you can make is a mistake--you can't learn anything from being perfect. Children have an easier time learning about computers than adults because they're not afraid to make mistakes. Children are used to making mstakes all day long and getting yelled at for it. So they're more willing to experiment with something that might intimidate them. Adults can't experiment because they won't risk mistakes. The computer is simply a device to amplify mental powers. It provides leverage for your mind. 43 A technologically reckless person is one who knows just enough technology to be dangerous but not enough to be cautious. You're not trying hard enough if you don't fail sometimes. You can only tell if you're breaking ground if you're stubbing your toes. Engineers add parts to machines to solve problems; I take parts out of machines to solve problems. The people who make money in this industry are the ones who engineer a product and get others to build the parts. 44 I listen to the marketplace better than anyone else, and I don't mind borrowing. Never do anything yourself if someone else can do it better. The stabilization of markets encourages big business; upheaval and innovation encourage small business. For my father's generation, work was not supposed to be pleasant. For me, work is the greatest pleasure. I'm not a workaholic, I'm a work enthusiast. The most potent drug of all is being on a "hot" project. 45 The most successful company isn't the first one with a good idea. It's amazing how smart you can be if you're second and do your homework. My first microcomputer was an attempt to understand Osborne's success. When a company gets bigger, it can't afford to be adventurous. If it gets into high volumes, it has to stick with established technology, take what it knows works. 46 Most of us in the early days had entrepreneur's sickness--we wouldn't do anything that would dilute our control of our companies. Steve Jobs of Apple was the only one smart enough to see that he had to give away parts of his company to get the most talented people. You can still have ideas, develop products, without being entrepreneurial. Entrepreneurial just means you gamble a lot. Apple hasn't been entrepreneurial for some time and neither has H-P. 47 Being a successful entrepreneur means being able to do it more than once. If you can't repeat your success, you probably were just lucky the first time. 48 49 Business/Finance 50 Venture capitalists are like lemmings jumping on the software bandwagon. Japanese accounts payable are like heroin; they get you hooked with 120-day payment plans. The best way to keep the competition out is to price low; if there's too much fat in the profit, someone else will come in under you. I'm happy with 10 percent after-tax profits. After 15 percent I rebel; that's rape. 51 The Morrow theory of finance: When you're a little guy operating out of a garage, you have to pay all your own bills. But when you get more successful, you get a line of credit, and the bank starts paying your bills. Then you get a little more successful, and the bank won't pay anymore, so you pay your bills slowly--30, 60, 120 days late--and now your vendors are paying your bills. Now you're even more successful, you get venture capitalists, and they're paying your bills. And it used to be when you reached the highest level of success, you could go public and have the public paying your bills. But nowadays, when you finally reach the pinnacle of financial success--like Chrysler--you're so successful you can't be allowed to fail, and the government starts paying your bills. 52 People in Silicon Valley don't like the first stage--paying their own bills. They've been very successful at leapfrogging this step, by getting venture capital up front. Big corporations used to sneer at small computer companies; but the small companies forced the big ones to get into the small computer business. Money coming in says I've made the right marketing decisions. If you make enough units of a product, front-end costs are insignificant noise. 53 Money is the only lethal drug available on a non-prescription basis. Bankers aret he druggists. It's a definite sign of success when your vendors pay your bills. U.S. venture capitalists will hold on while a firm dies, to get more money for it. They deliberately prolonged Osborne's existence. At the end, with every Osborne I they shipped, they lost at least $200. 54 Venture capitalists don't know how to decide which companies are going to be successful. They don't have the slightest idea what the ingredients of a success are. The only thing they know is what worked the last time. They have a tendency to repeat. They'll work it to death. When Osborne first came out he had a startling product that captured people's imaginations. Then everybody began building portables. If you had an idea for a computer with a handle on it, it was easy to go out and get venture capital. The good thing about venture capital is that it provides a lot of jobs. 55 Miscellaneous 56 The MIS department wants control of the computer revolution; they have power and position and want to protect it. But the insurrection will win; as micros get cheaper, more and more of them will enter the corporation. They may be hidden, but they'll be there. As an organization leaves the startup phase and grows, it needs a different kind of employee--one who doesn't have to see the job from start to finish. There'll be a special place in hell for the tape back-up people. 57 User groups are an excellent device to bring pressure upon manufacturers. If I had a business that relied on kids sticking quarters in a machine, I couldn't sleep at night. People think computers will keep them from making mistakes. They're wrong. With computers you make mistakes faster. The small businessman is smart; he realizes there's no free lunch. On the other hand, he knows where to go to get a good inexpensive sandwich. 58 More money has been wasted in artificial intelligence than in any other area of computer technology. We're still not close to having any real idea or model of how the human brain works. Networking hasn't come of age. For right now, carrying a floppy disk from one computer to another is probably still the most effective way to transfer information. Ths is the ultimate con game--I'm having fun and people pay me to do it. 59 Lawyers. The worst parasites this country has produced. The guy who knows about computers is the last person you want to have creating documentation for people who don't understand computers. Portable computers took off because people seem to want handles on their computers--handles that don't really serve them well. People are attracted to handles. 60 Western Union had the chance to buy the telephone patents in 1883 for $40,000--even then a drop in the bucket. They didn't do it because they thought they were in the telegraph business, when really they were in the communication business. Similarly, the railroads didn't realize they weren't in the train business, but the transportation business; so they sat back and watched as cars and planes took it away from them. I don't know what business I'm in. The computer business? The information business? Somebody at IBM knows what business they're in. If there's one thing I'd like to find out, it's what business IBM thinks they're in. They're sure not telling anyone. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 06:39:05 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards In-Reply-To: <005901c48229$125d7040$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: <20040816113905.12824.qmail@web21525.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Paul. Mystery solved. If anybody needs/wants these they are available for shipping costs. rich --- Paul Pennington wrote: > These are from a Kaypro PC 286/12, an IBM AT > clone. Rather nice machine > for its time, with a huge dark gray case. Byte > Magazine columnist Jerry > Pournelle famously named his "Big Cat". > > Paul Pennington > Augusta, Georgia > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Bramante" > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:39 AM > Subject: help id'ing these 2 Kaypro boards > > > pics here: > > > > http://www.metabarn.com/forsale/pics/#KAY > > > > Top one has "81-914 REV E" on back. > > Bottom one has "81-1590 REV E" and "KV-01" on > back. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From CPUMECH at aol.com Mon Aug 16 07:57:59 2004 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: ASR-33....its alive (sort of) Message-ID: <12a.48c722a1.2e520957@aol.com> Try Dataterm Inc. for Teletype parts. 781-938-1010 or Dataterm.com. From spedraja at ono.com Mon Aug 16 08:24:25 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: HP2116B References: <12a.48c722a1.2e520957@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c48394$59e20680$0f02a8c0@WorkGroup> Hello. This is (again) for all the HP 2000 fanatics. http://cgi.es.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5115588247&ssPage Name=STRK:MEWA:IT Greetings Sergio From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 16 08:21:55 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: HP2116B References: <12a.48c722a1.2e520957@aol.com> <003601c48394$59e20680$0f02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <008601c48394$000f07c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Hello. This is (again) for all the HP 2000 fanatics. > > http://cgi.es.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5115588247&ssPage > Name=STRK:MEWA:IT I'd love one. But way too rich for my blood! J --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 16 11:07:22 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Tek 4115B out there Message-ID: <20040816160722.CB5863EEB@spies.com> I have the entire unit > with keyboard, manuals, etc; in storage -- I've been looking for the service manual for 411x series terminals for a while now. I'd like to scan it if you have a copy. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 16 11:45:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: UV Eraser assistance in NY... Message-ID: <200408161645.JAA01698@clulw009.amd.com> >From: cvendel@att.net > >Hi, > >Sorry to post off topic, but I'm in a bit of a bind... > >Anyone in the Westchester/Putnam area have a spare UV Eraser that they could either loan or trade with me??? I have a project I need to work on and my UV eraser has completely up and died, looks like the transformer and I really need to update some eprom's to complete code testing for work. > >I a spare VT320, a vaxstation, Atari PC-1 computer, Odyssey2 Video game console and several other items I'd be willing to do a trade for, I also have some tape drives, cd-roms drives and token ring equipment, SCSI cards, older ISA ethernet adapters and so forth if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list if you can help me out, thanks much! > >Curt >cvendel@att.net > Hi It is most likely a balast and not a simple transformer. They can usually be replaced by another balast of the same wattage. These can be bought from electrical shops. The bulbs are a little harder to find but they can be ordered from most any electrical shop ( they are expensive, having quartz glass tubes ). Dwight From cc at corti-net.de Mon Aug 16 04:02:37 2004 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <1139052492.20040809093557@tstf.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, emx wrote: > Here is a post that was made on one of the web sites dedicated to John > Titor. I will comment on this post: > I'm not sure if anyone else has posted anything about the 5100, but > this machine was very interesting. In the early 80's, I worked on a > slightly upgraded version of the 5100 called the 5110. The 5100/5110 > machine executed code intended for IBM mainframes of the time (System > 360/370) via a simple processor that emulated the old 360/370 CPU. This is wrong. The PALM processor (as used in the 5100/5110) has its own design and its own microcode and machine code. It does NOT execute any other microcode other than that programmed into a ROS on the CPU card. The "frontend" languages APL or BASIC are indeed written in other machine code. In order to run these interpreters, a program written in PALM machine code is run (part of the Executable ROS) to interprete the interpreter. That's why BASIC/APL is running so slowly on these machines. The PALM CPU itself is a full 16 bit processor with 8 bit ALU and 18 bit data path (incl. parity bits for each byte). > Languages, such as APL or VS BASIC were programs written in machine > language, that were, in turn, interpreted by the CPU in a lower level > language called 'Microcode' If microcode == machine code, then yes. > Microcode allowed IBM to modify or enhance basic machine language > instructions at will after the mainframe was delivered to the > customer. The concept was 'ship an initial version of the 'machine', > but allow upgrades as they were developed without the wholesale > replacement of hardware'. To change a basic instruction in > microprocessors today usually requires a physical change in the chip, > since all instructions are 'hard-wired' into the design of chip. You can't change the microcode of the PALM processor. That would be like changing the microcode of e.g. a MC68000. And today's processors are all microcoded, i.e. you DON'T have to change the wiring of the processor, but only the so called microprogram for exactly this one instruction. Well, the problem is that the microprogram ROM is located on the CPU chip... > The core design of the 5100 series machine was an emulator of the old > IBM 360/370. The CPU of these machines was designed to execute the No, the SCAMP was designed to run a subset of the IBM 1130 processor. The PALM processor really has nothing in common with either the 1130 or any 360/370. > mainframe. It was not a fast machine, but it worked, and the > performance of the old 5100 was good enough to run many of the same > applications we had developed on our $10 million twin IBM 370 In my opinion the PALM processor is quite fast, e.g. around 500k instr./sec. > mainframe installation. APL and VS BASIC apps ran with little or no > modification, except for storage device definitions, which were > limited to 300KB 8" floppies or 150KB streaming tape cartridges. Well, the 300kB are 1,1MB (DS/DD) and the 150kB are more like 220kB (or 500kB with DC600 cartridges). Again: For more information have a look at http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html Christian Corti From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 16 13:18:30 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: univac 90/30 Message-ID: <20040816181830.AA8453CA9@spies.com> appears to have gone to a german collector anyone know who this is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 From hansp at citem.org Mon Aug 16 13:50:20 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: univac 90/30 In-Reply-To: <20040816181830.AA8453CA9@spies.com> References: <20040816181830.AA8453CA9@spies.com> Message-ID: <412101EC.6060204@citem.org> Al Kossow wrote: > appears to have gone to a german collector > anyone know who this is? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=3740834255 According to the member profile they are in Switzerland. Looking at their past few acquisitions shows a bunch of electronic components, mechanical calculators and classic computers. I'd say they were building a collection ;-) -- HansP From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 16 14:42:32 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Quotations From Chairman Morrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092685351.4436.30.camel@dhcp-250019> Thanks a million for doing that. He was a cool and funny and honest guy. tomj > I believe in standards. Everyone should have one. I had no idea he said this! I've been paraphrasing this one for seemingly ever (but now I know the lower bound). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 15:42:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 16, 4 11:02:37 am Message-ID: > You can't change the microcode of the PALM processor. That would be like > changing the microcode of e.g. a MC68000. It is, of course, possible to make a processor where the microcode can be changed by the user. Many early graphics workstations (the PERQ, many of the Xerox machines, etc) had microcode that was loaded from disk when the machine booted. WCS (Writeable Control Store) options were available for a few models of PDP11 to allow the user to write microcode. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 16 16:19:45 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040816141838.S15494@shell.lmi.net> Gee! Does that mean that there are doubts about the validity of some of John Titor's claims?? On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, emx wrote: > > Here is a post that was made on one of the web sites dedicated to John > > Titor. > > I will comment on this post: > > > I'm not sure if anyone else has posted anything about the 5100, but > > this machine was very interesting. In the early 80's, I worked on a > > slightly upgraded version of the 5100 called the 5110. The 5100/5110 > > machine executed code intended for IBM mainframes of the time (System > > 360/370) via a simple processor that emulated the old 360/370 CPU. > > This is wrong. The PALM processor (as used in the 5100/5110) has its own > design and its own microcode and machine code. It does NOT execute any > other microcode other than that programmed into a ROS on the CPU card. The > "frontend" languages APL or BASIC are indeed written in other machine > code. In order to run these interpreters, a program written in PALM > machine code is run (part of the Executable ROS) to interprete the > interpreter. That's why BASIC/APL is running so slowly on these machines. > The PALM CPU itself is a full 16 bit processor with 8 bit ALU and 18 bit > data path (incl. parity bits for each byte). > > > Languages, such as APL or VS BASIC were programs written in machine > > language, that were, in turn, interpreted by the CPU in a lower level > > language called 'Microcode' > > If microcode == machine code, then yes. > > > Microcode allowed IBM to modify or enhance basic machine language > > instructions at will after the mainframe was delivered to the > > customer. The concept was 'ship an initial version of the 'machine', > > but allow upgrades as they were developed without the wholesale > > replacement of hardware'. To change a basic instruction in > > microprocessors today usually requires a physical change in the chip, > > since all instructions are 'hard-wired' into the design of chip. > > You can't change the microcode of the PALM processor. That would be like > changing the microcode of e.g. a MC68000. > And today's processors are all microcoded, i.e. you DON'T have to change > the wiring of the processor, but only the so called microprogram for > exactly this one instruction. Well, the problem is that the microprogram > ROM is located on the CPU chip... > > > The core design of the 5100 series machine was an emulator of the old > > IBM 360/370. The CPU of these machines was designed to execute the > > No, the SCAMP was designed to run a subset of the IBM 1130 processor. The > PALM processor really has nothing in common with either the 1130 or any > 360/370. > > > mainframe. It was not a fast machine, but it worked, and the > > performance of the old 5100 was good enough to run many of the same > > applications we had developed on our $10 million twin IBM 370 > > In my opinion the PALM processor is quite fast, e.g. around 500k > instr./sec. > > > mainframe installation. APL and VS BASIC apps ran with little or no > > modification, except for storage device definitions, which were > > limited to 300KB 8" floppies or 150KB streaming tape cartridges. > > Well, the 300kB are 1,1MB (DS/DD) and the 150kB are more like 220kB (or > 500kB with DC600 cartridges). > > Again: For more information have a look at > http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html > > Christian Corti From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 16 16:22:47 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040816212247.GC5620@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 09:42:55PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > It is, of course, possible to make a processor where the microcode can be > changed by the user. Many early graphics workstations (the PERQ, many of > the Xerox machines, etc) had microcode that was loaded from disk when the > machine booted. WCS (Writeable Control Store) options were available for > a few models of PDP11 to allow the user to write microcode. Somewhere at home I have the instruction card for twiddling KDF11 microcode. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Aug-2004 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.5 F (-64.2 C) Windchill -129.7 F (-89.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.6 kts Grid 035 Barometer 669.6 mb (11022. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Aug 16 16:23:31 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access Message-ID: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> I realize that the 2 questions I have are NOT within the 10 year rule, but I really could use some help! While I have been using computers for over 40 years, I have stayed with very old systems as far as programming and writing programs is concerned. Thus, under Windows 98 SE and Netsacpe 4.78 (which is what I am using to access the internet and this news group), I am ONLY able to use the operating system and the application; I am NOT able to make any modifications which is how I usually proceed when I encounter any problems. Last week, the web site that I usually access in a very standard manner using Windows 98 SE / Netscape 4.78 no longer provides the information I used to obtain. The reason is that the company which controls access to the web site decided to add additional features which require the use of at least Netscape 7.0 by the user. And while I agree that the company has every legal right to do so, at the very least some sort of warning could have been provided which was much more apparent other than placing the information under a link titled "required browsers" that I understand did provide some advance notice. However, at the SAME time, the error page which informed users that cookies were REQUIRED listed (and still lists) Netscape 4.x and Netscape 6.x as the required browsers if cookies were turned OFF. Some more background information: Because I ALWAYS run Netscape with cookies turned OFF, except when I am required to have cookies enabled to access the 2 web pages that I normally use, I often encountered the error page which listed Netscape 4.x as one of the required browsers. Since EVERYTHING works when cookies were enabled, I never bothered to access the "required browsers" link as the error page certainly seemed to provide that information when I forgot to turn cookies ON - which usually happened at least once a week. ALSO, while I am not able to fully use the web site, I am able to "log in" (with a userid and password) to get to the first level of information that I request. It is only subsequent screens that I am unable to FULLY access, i.e. when I request the next level of information, the next screen is reached, but the changing information is no longer displayed under Netscape 4.78, ONLY the top portion with the headers, etc. I have 2 questions: Based on the information on the error page, would a normal user be ALSO expected to look at the "required browsers" link when the specific naming of Netscape 4.x was (and still was when this post was made) displayed as an acceptable browser when I forgot to turn cookies ON? Could the company have continued to allow users access to the web site under Netscape 4.78 by the expedient of NOT providing those users the additional features that users of Netscape 7.0 and later are provided? NAMELY, do the fellows setting up the program have the ability to check as to which version of Netscape is being used and could the program have retained the old code for those users who stayed with Netscape 4.78 and used to new code for those users who shifted to Netscape 7.0 and later? I realize this post is very long, but I hope it should be possible to answer both questions with a simple YES or NO! If you wish to add an explanation, that would also be VERY MUCH appreciated! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Aug 16 17:08:17 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Help with IBM 5100 - ROS error Message-ID: <20040816220816.XZGR13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Now that the SuperPET's are off the bench, I have moved on the 5100. This is an IBM 5100, BASIC only, 16K model - I received it about a week ago. It was reported working the last time it was powered up (I have a picture of it taken then with a BASIC program on the screen), however it has been stored in an attic for quite a few years since then. The machine runs, however the "BRING UP" program is reporting an error in the non-executable ROS content and CRC test. At least thats which I understand from the maintenance manual. It gets as far as the 'I' test, then lights the PROGRESS-CHECK light. The screen displays: -------------------------------------------- ABCDEFGHI 18 07 (Bottom line of display) A B C B ~ N_ 13 EZEP (Z and P are underlined) -------------------------------------------- According to the maintenance manual, line 1 cols 1 and 2 should contain the ID of the module it is looking for (18) and 5 and 7 contain an error code (07). I have not been able to determine what '07' means ... Perhaps its in the manual, but I have not found it yet. (Please bear with me, I haven't seen a real live 5100 in aver 20 years, and I have never worked on one before). I have tried removing and reseating all the cards (which is very unplesant as the rubber/foam which supports then when they are in their normal "upside down" position is about the consistance of tar on the surface, which has glued itself to the faceplates of all the cards - I'll be looking for a good way to replace this eventually). Anyone have any experience with reports of bad ROS - is there any other cause (power supply tolerance etc.). I know this is a long shot, but anyone have a unused 5100 ROS? (perhaps from an APL upgrade or a dead machine) ... (I'd really like to find a full APL ROS :-) Anyone have the code? Anyone ever tried making a substitute? According to the manual, you can get into the level 1 diagnostic mode by pressing either: Cmd * - or possibly - Cmd + / Cmd - / Cmd * Page 3-10 indicates just 'Cmd *' while page 3-15 indicates the longer sequence - neither does anything on my unit - am I doing it wrong, or is this a function in the non-executable ROS, which is not being allowed due to the error? (Does it even recognize this sequence when in the process-check state, as according to the register displays it appears to be halted?) Any help / insight would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Aug 16 17:27:20 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: [OT] Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> Message-ID: Jerome H. Fine wrote, in part: > Last week, the web site that I usually access in a very standard > manner using Windows 98 SE / Netscape 4.78 no longer provides > the information I used to obtain. The reason is that the company > which controls access to the web site decided to add additional > features which require the use of at least Netscape 7.0 by the user. [...] > Based on the information on the error page, would a normal user > be ALSO expected to look at the "required browsers" link when > the specific naming of Netscape 4.x was (and still was when this > post was made) displayed as an acceptable browser when I > forgot to turn cookies ON? Hard to say without seeing the web-site in question, but at the least (from your description) it sound like they haven't got their various "what-browsers-are-acceptable" pages in sync. I'd be annoyed if I were you. :) > Could the company have continued to allow users access to the > web site under Netscape 4.78 by the expedient of NOT > providing those users the additional features that users of > Netscape 7.0 and later are provided? NAMELY, do the > fellows setting up the program have the ability to check as to > which version of Netscape is being used and could the program > have retained the old code for those users who stayed with > Netscape 4.78 and used to new code for those users who > shifted to Netscape 7.0 and later? We're moving our library around, so my relevant books are hiding; but from memory, yes, it's possible. HTTP requests are sent with a handful of environmental variables, including brand and version of the browser making the request. A server can read the $ENV info when the page request is made, and reply appropriately (or, in your case, reply annoyingly). It could, therefore, give you a version of the content laid out for older browsers. The problem, though, is that doing so is labor-intensive: it means more of a workload on the server if it has to select or transform content based on what version of browser is making the request; and more, it's a significantly greater workload on the site maintainers if they have to update, maintain and test differing versions of the same website. O'course, I've long held the opinion that - except in the cases of multimedia-bells-and-whistles websites, which are by their nature heavily dependent on what the receiving browser can handle - designing a site that requires "Browser X" to be readable is both counterproductive and against the site's own interest. Why put together a web presence at all if you're going to bar a bunch of potential readers from seeing it at the outset? Why make an effort to communicate your message to the world if you're simultaneously going to put up a technology barrier to make sure half the people you're trying to reach can't access it? If you're going to write something, don't you want people to _read_ it? ...Whew. I feel better now. Sorry, the fever will pass. :) Anyway, it may be simplest to just bite the damnable lead bullet and get a browser upgrade. Mozilla's Firefox may be the way to go: http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ I've developed a great fondness for Phoenix, one of Firefox's recent ancestors (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/0.5.html). I agree that changing browsers so you can receive content is irritating, but it's probably less irritating than trying to convince some site manager to change their technology-drunk method of thinking. (O'course, it may be most morally satisfying to just send them a hostile e-mail telling them you'll nevber view their stupid site ever again until they change their heinous ways. ) -O.- (...whose site is viewable with everything from Lynx onward, thank you very much) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 16 17:46:20 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: [OT] Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092696379.22306.802.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-16 at 22:27, O. Sharp wrote: > Jerome H. Fine wrote, in part: > Hard to say without seeing the web-site in question, but at the least > (from your description) it sound like they haven't got their various > "what-browsers-are-acceptable" pages in sync. I'd be annoyed if I were > you. :) I'd be annoyed if I were me, too. Wait - I *am* me! :-) > We're moving our library around, so my relevant books are hiding; but > from memory, yes, it's possible. HTTP requests are sent with a handful of > environmental variables, including brand and version of the browser > making the request. USER_AGENT rings a bell for some reason, but I could be making that up. Somewhere on the web exists a site where when you visit the page it just dumps out all the data sent by your browser to the server. Unfortunately I never ever bookmark it because each time I need it I never think I'll need it again - d'oh! Anyone? > > O'course, I've long held the opinion that - except in the cases of > multimedia-bells-and-whistles websites, which are by their nature heavily > dependent on what the receiving browser can handle - designing a site > that requires "Browser X" to be readable is both counterproductive and > against the site's own interest. Why put together a web presence at all > if you're going to bar a bunch of potential readers from seeing it at > the outset? Why make an effort to communicate your message to the world if > you're simultaneously going to put up a technology barrier to make sure > half the people you're trying to reach can't access it? If you're going to > write something, don't you want people to _read_ it? > Yep, you and a huge amount of other people - unfortunately it hasn't filtered through to the moron brigade it seems (who typically code for and test on IE, probably using Frontpage in the process... ugh) > Anyway, it may be simplest to just bite the damnable lead bullet and get > a browser upgrade. Mozilla's Firefox may be the way to go: Didn't Jerome imply that he couldn't upgrade or install anything different on this platform? Otherwise, yes I agree. My personal favourite's Opera as the download is tiny compared to other modern browsers, plus you can tell it to identify itself to a remote server as a few different browsers which can help access broken sites. And it's incredibly fast at page rendering. By the way Jerome, are you sure that you haven't just got some junk left in your browser's cache (cookies or content) that are causing problems? The fact that you said you can authenticate against the site and bring the initial page up but then not see any content beyond that could also be down to a cache problem. Try shift-reload on an offending page and see what it does if you haven't already; from memory with that version of Netscape it should force a reload of the page from the server. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 17:51:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <20040816141838.S15494@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Gee! > Does that mean that there are doubts about the validity of some > of John Titor's claims?? A hoax laid out very well and with great care (and amazing attention to finite details). Fun, interesting, but in the end you have to put your fantasy suspension of belief aside and come back down to reality. http://www.livejournal.com/community/hoaxes/90359.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 16 17:51:06 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: RAM test: was Re: PET startup sequence?? In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info)" (Aug 14, 11:11) References: Message-ID: <10408162351.ZM21043@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 14 2004, 11:11, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > registers), though it would on a 6502. If anyone wants a copy I can > > give you the Z80 code, some notes from the project writeup, and the > > CACM references. > > Please! OK, it's below. First I ought to explain a couple of things about the code and the system it was written for. This was for a very basic Z80 system consisting of some EPROM, RAM, timers, and minimal I/O, which included a 2-line x 16-char LCD display. It was used for second-year project work. The way the LCD display was interfaced precluded the use of normal hanshaking or reading, so the routines that write to it incorporate a delay long enough to ensure that the display has completed the update before another write can occur. Secondly, the whole system was designed to report any error (and refuse to continue if it was serious), and to do this, the startup routines perform a number of tests, each of which uses no part of the hardware that's not already been passed "good". Well, that's the ideal; it's not so simple in practice. It begins with a ROM CRC check (and it's a proper CRC, not a simple checksum, so it will catch all single-bit errors, most 2-bit errors, and many multiple-bit errors). It should really do a CPU test first, but that would need the ROM to hold the test routines. The justification here is that it uses nothing except the processor and the ROM itself, and the assumption is that any serious fault in the processor will cause that to fail. If so, it's easy to take out the ROM, CRC check it on an EPROM programmer, and tell whether the ROM really is at fault -- if not, it must be the CPU. The chances of a CPU failing are quite small; the chances that a failing CPU will still execute instructions are a fraction of that; the chances that a CPU with faulty instructions will still execute the CRC test are a fraction of that; the chances that a faulty CPU that still passes the CRC has faults in common instructions used elsewhere are ... etc. So at the point that the RAM test executes, we "know" the CPU is OK and we know the ROM is OK, but we don't want to use the RAM to hold data during the RAM test. So no variables other than in registers, and *no stack* hence no subroutines. Hence the rather odd way of executing pseudo-subroutines to display things (on the LCD which we assume is working; it's just been "exhaustively tested" by the visual test of seeing a "ROM CRC ERROR" or "ROM CRC PASSED" message, followed by "RAM test" on it :-)). Lastly, this test does everything one bit at a time, not one byte at a time. That's because the system used byte-wide RAM, in which in theory any bit could interact with any other. You could safely parallelise this to do a byte at a time if you used a separate RAM chip for each bit (because you could assume they wouldn't interact except through a faulty data bus or power glitches) and that would speed it up more than 8 times. Here's the code: # Filename: RAMtest.s # # Author: Pete Turnbull # Address: Department of Computer Science, University of York, # Heslington, YORK YO10 5DD. # Email: pnt1@york.ac.uk # # Created: 26-Nov-1995 # Last update: 18-Nov-1996 # Description: An efficient RAM test # Version: 0.4 now uses 20-bit error-counter # 0.3 modified to work as standalone test for CTS 19-Oct-1996 # 0.2 code converted from ZASM to as80 for MCP, March 1996 # 0.1 original module for inclusion in CTS 1995, coded in ZASM # # ************************************************************************** # * # * An implementation of Suk and Reddy's Test B RAM testing procedure. # * Implemented from information in an article "Functional Testing of # * Semiconductor Random Access Memories", M.S.Abadir and H.K.Reghbati, # * Computing Surveys, Vol.15 No.3 September 1983, ACM. # * The original NTA article is "Efficient Algorithms for testing # * Semiconductor Random Access Memories", Nair, Thatte and Abraham, IEEE # * Transactions on Computing, Vol.C-27, No.6, June 1978. # * A similar fault model was used by D.S.Suk and S.M.Reddy, to develop even # * better tests, including their Test B, described in "A march test for # * functional faults in semiconductor random access memories", IEEE # * Transactions on Computing, Vol.C-30, No.12, Dec 1981. # * This is an O(n) procedure, much more efficient for large memories than # * GALPAT. It also finds coupling faults invisible to GALPAT tests. # * # * GALPAT complexity 4n^2 + 2n, finds all stuck-at, and some coupling faults # * GALPAT-II 4n^2 + 4n, finds all stuck-at, and all coupling faults # * T&A 8n.lg(n), finds all stuck-at, and all coupling faults # * NTA 30n, finds all stuck-at, and all coupling faults # * S&R-B 16n, finds all stuck-at, and all coupling faults # * assuming no decoder multiple-access faults, # * and all decoder faults if no coupling faults. # * # * The proviso about coupling/decoder faults really just means that the two # * types of fault are seen as equivalent (indistinguishable) by the test, # * not that they are not detected. # * # * There are even faster tests than S&R-B but they don't necessarily find # * all errors (some errors may mask others). # * With our Z80 running at 3.6864MHz, this test takes about 6 seconds. # * From the formulae above, an "equivalent" GALPAT would take over an hour. # * # * Byte operations would be acceptable for 1-bit wide memories, merely # * being an application of parallel testing. However, our RAM is 8-bit, so # * we use multiple operations to access each bit in a byte. This is not # * quite according to the test specification, as the lower bits in each # * byte are read/written up to 21 more times than they should be. # * However, if the RAM is OK, correct values are written every time, and # * consideration of the fault model shows that this will only affect soft # * errors, which, by definition, are likely to be corrected by other # * operations in the test procedure and would not be detected by most test # * algorithms. # * If we just used byte operations, we might miss some coupling faults. # * # * Errors are reported on the LCD, using in-line code (no subroutine stack), # * in the form "aaaa:xx (yy) -pp" where "aaaa" is the address with the error, # * "xx" is the found data, "yy" is the expected data, and "pp" is the section # * number (1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 3 or 4). DE holds an error count, supplemented by # * H to use 20 bits so that multiples of 8*8192 errors (eg every bit in every # * byte of 8K) can be recorded. # * # * The test always runs to completion, but then displays the error count and # * HALTs if it's non-zero. If it is zero, this version prints the message # * "RAM OK " and halts. # * # ************************************************************************** # # # ***** Memory addresses ***** # rom = 0 # start of 8KB EPROM area romtop = 0x1FFF # last byte in ROM ram = 0x4000 # start of 8KB RAM area ramsize = 8192 # size of RAM ramtop = ram+ramsize-1 # last address in RAM # # # ***** I/O addresses ***** # LCDins = 0x80 # LCD base address, instruction register LCDdat = LCDins+1 # LCD data register # # # ***** assorted constants ***** # LCinit = 0x3C # LCD "Funct.Set": 8 bit data, 2 lines LCDoff = 0x08 # set off: OR this with D/C/B for ON Don = 4 # sets Display ON LCDon = LCDoff + Don # set on: OR this with C/B for cursor Con = 2 # sets Cursor ON Bon = 1 # sets Blink ON (else cursor is solid) LCDclr = 0x01 # clears LCD display/RAM, sets address 0 LCDhom = 0x02 # moves cursor to position 1, line 1 setCG = 0x40 # sets "write to char gen RAM". OR with addr. setDD = 0x80 # sets "write to data display". OR with addr. line2 = 0x40 # address of second line setL2 = setDD + line2 # sets "write" to write to line 2 # dly120 = 32 # loop constant for just under 120 microsecs space = ' ' # ASCII space character # # # ************************************************************************** # * # * Here is the actual code... # * Note there's no point in pushing registers or calling subroutines, # * as we're scribbling all over all the RAM including the stack area. # * Before we start, reset LCD and tell the world what we're going to do. # * # ************************************************************************** # .org rom init: ld a, LCinit # tell it about data format etc out (LCDins), a ld b, dly120 waitI0: djnz waitI0 # let the LCD sort itself out ld a, LCDclr # clear display and RAM, home cursor out (LCDins), a ld bc, 4900/7 # that takes about 4.9ms waitLC: dec bc # loop takes 26 T-cycles, about 7 microsecs ld a, b or c jr nz, waitLC # wait for init to complete ld a, LCDon + Con # turn on the display out (LCDins), a ld b, dly120 waitI1: djnz waitI1 # let the LCD get it done ld hl, SRBmsg jp mssgHL # and return from there to following code SRBmsg: "RAM test " # this message fills the first line .byte 0 # terminator # # # ***** Step 0. Initialise, and set all RAM to 0's (we hope). # 8Kbytes-worth of LDIR takes 21 T-cycles x 8192, about 47 milliseconds # SRB0: ld de, 0 # assume we're going to pass - no errors ld h, d # (error counter is 24-bit) exx # save that thought! ld hl, ram ld (hl), 0 # set first location to zero ld bc, ramsize - 1 # make 1FFF copies... ld de, ram + 1 # ...starting here ldir # block copy, fastest way to set all the rest # # ***** Step 1. 3 pairs of read/write operations for each *bit* (not byte). # This is a marching pattern, but tests that each bit can be 1 or 0. # For sake of speed, loops are done with JP, faster than JR if jump # is made. However, JR is faster if the jump is not taken, so is used for # the jump-on-failure -- which hopefully is rarely taken! # "nxtbit" loop takes 110 T-cycles, about 30 microseconds. # "nxtbyt" loop takes 8 nxtbits + 60 T-cycles = 940 T-cycles, about 255us # 8Kbytes-worth takes 255us x 8192 = 2.09 seconds. # ld bc, ramtop + 1 # where to stop ld d, 1 # mask for current bit in current byte ld hl, ram-ramtop-1 nxtbyt: add hl, bc # start position ld e, 0 # what the whole of the current byte should be nxtbit: ld a, (hl) # ** Read: Ci(=0) and d # select current bit jr nz, fail1a # if not still 0, it's duff OK1a: ld a, e # what it should be, so far or d # ** Write: Ci <-- 1 ld (hl), a # put it away ld a, (hl) # ** Read: Ci(=1) and d jr z, fail1b OK1b: ld a, e # current bit is still zero in E ld (hl), a # ** Write: Ci <-- 0 ld a, (hl) # ** Read: Ci(=0) and d # select current bit again jr nz, fail1c # if not still 0, it's duff OK1c: ld a, e # what it should be, so far or d # ** Write: Ci <-- 1 ld e, a # update the copy ld (hl), a # put it to bed rlc d # next bit - NB 8-bit rotate jp nc, nxtbit inc hl ccf # it was set by the last RLC D sbc hl, bc # see if we've run out of RAM jp nz, nxtbyt # # ***** Step 2. Check each bit Ci(=1), then toggle it twice. # "nxtbi2" loop takes 62 T-cycles, about 17 microseconds. # "nxtby2" loop takes 8 nxtbits + 46 T-cycles = 542 T-cycles, about 147us # 8Kbytes-worth takes 147us x 8192 = 1.2 seconds. # ld hl, ram-ramtop-1 nxtby2: add hl, bc # E is still FF, this section doesn't change it nxtbi2: ld a, (hl) # ** Read: Ci(=1) and d jr z, fail2 OK2: ld a, e # what it should be (0FFH) xor d # make current bit zero ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 0 ld a, e # restore the '1' ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 1 rlc d jp nc, nxtbi2 inc hl ccf # it was set sbc hl, bc # see if we've run out of RAM jp nz, nxtby2 # # ***** Step 3. Check each bit Ci(=1), then toggle it three times. # "nxtbi3" loop takes 77 T-cycles, about 21 microseconds. # "nxtby3" loop takes 8 nxtbits + 46 T-cycles = 662 T-cycles, about 180us # 8Kbytes-worth takes 180us x 8192 = 1.5 seconds. # ld hl, ram-ramtop-1 nxtby3: add hl, bc ld e, 0xFF # it gets changed to 0 as we go round nxtbi3: ld a, (hl) # ** Read: Ci(=1) and d jr z, fail3 OK3: ld a, e # what the byte should be xor d # make current bit zero ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 0 ld a, e # restore the '1' ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 1 xor d # make current bit zero ld e, a # copy it ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 0 rlc d jp nc, nxtbi3 inc hl ccf # it was set sbc hl, bc # see if we've run out of RAM jp nz, nxtby3 # # ***** Step 4. Check each bit Ci(=0), then toggle it twice. # "nxtbi4" loop takes 62 T-cycles, about 17 microseconds. # "nxtby4" loop takes 8 nxtbits + 46 T-cycles = 542 T-cycles, about 147us # 8Kbytes-worth takes 147us x 8192 = 1.2 seconds. # ld hl, ram-ramtop-1 nxtby4: add hl, bc # E is now zero, after finishing Step 3 nxtbi4: ld a, (hl) # ** Read: Ci(=0) and d jr nz, fail4 OK4: ld a, e # what it should be (00H) xor d # make current bit a '1' ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 1 ld a, e # restore the '0' ld (hl), a # ** Write Ci <-- 0 rlc d jp nc, nxtbi4 inc hl ccf # it was set sbc hl, bc # see if we've run out of RAM jp nz, nxtby4 jp SRBend # testing completed # # # ************************************************************************** # * # * The following code uses IX to store the return address. It uses BC, # * but restores BC = ramtop + 1 on exit. It prints a message to give # * the failed address, data as read, expected data, and section where # * the error was detected. # * # ************************************************************************** # fail1a: ld ix, OK1a # here if Read: Ci(=0) failed in Step 1a ld a, 0x1A # section code jr fail fail1b: ld ix, OK1b # here if Read: Ci(=1) failed in Step 1b ld a, 0x1B jr fail fail1c: ld ix, OK1c # here if Read: Ci(=0) failed in Step 1c ld a, 0x1C jr fail fail2: ld ix, OK2 # here if Read: Ci(=0) failed in Step 2 ld a, 2 jr fail fail3: ld ix, OK3 # here if Read: Ci(=1) failed in Step 3 ld a, 3 jr fail fail4: ld ix, OK4 # here if Read: Ci(=0) failed in Step 4 ld a, 4 # # ***** This is the part that actually does the printing # fail: ex af, af # save section code for the moment ld a, setL2 out (LCDins), a # address LCD second line ld b, dly120 fwait1: djnz fwait1 # give it time to do its stuff ld c, h # upper byte of failing address ld iy, f.L jr f.hex # print it f.L: ld c, l # lower byte of failing address ld iy, f.coln jr f.hex f.coln: ld a, ':' # print colon out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 fwait2: djnz fwait2 ld c, (hl) # get the duff data ld iy, f.spc jr f.hex f.spc: ld a, space # print space out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 fwait3: djnz fwait3 ld a, '(' # print left bracket out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 fwait4: djnz fwait4 ld c, e # expected data ld iy, f.brk jr f.hex f.brk: ld a, ')' # print right bracket out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 fwait5: djnz fwait5 ld a, space # print space out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 fwait6: djnz fwait6 ld a, '-' # print a dash out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 fwait7: djnz fwait7 ex af, af # where we saved the section number ld c, a ld iy, f.fin jr f.hex f.fin: exx # remember H,DE' had zero to signify "pass" inc e # so update error count jr nz, f.exx inc d # update middle byte too, if necessary jr nz, f.exx inc h # update top byte if necessary f.exx: exx ld bc, ramtop + 1 # caller expects this to be here jp (ix) # back to "caller" (or wherever!) # # # ************************************************************************** # * # * This pseudo-subroutine is "called" to print a pair of hex digits. # * # * Entry: value in C, return address in IY. # * Exit: A and B mangled. # * # ************************************************************************** # f.hex: ld a, c # get value to print rrca # move upper nibble to lower rrca rrca rrca and 0x0F # remove any garbage cp 0x0A # do we need a letter? jr c, AOK.1 add a, 'A' - 0x3A # yes, adjust it AOK.1: add a, '0' # make it ASCII out (LCDdat), a # print it ld b, dly120 Await1: djnz Await1 # give LCD time to do his stuff f.hex1: ld a, c # get lower nibble this time and 0x0F cp 0x0A jr c, AOK.2 add a, 'A' - 0x3A AOK.2: add a, '0' out (LCDdat), a ld b, dly120 Await2: djnz Await2 jp (iy) # return to wherever caller specified # # ************************************************************************** # * # * This pseudo-subroutine prints a message (if the as-yet-untested LCD is # * working) -- for use by the test routines that have no stack. # * # * Place the required message immediately after the call; this code returns # * to the address immediately beyond the message. # * # * Entry: HL points to the message, zero-terminated # * Exit: A, B mangled, HL updated # * # ************************************************************************** # mssgHL: ld a, (hl) # get the character or a # is it the terminator? inc hl # doesn't affect the flags... jr nz, do.mhl # ...so this depends on the character jp (hl) # to the code following the message do.mhl: out (LCDdat), a # send character to LCD ld b, dly120 waitm: djnz waitm # wait for our slow LCD jr mssgHL # repeat until cooked # # # ************************************************************************** # * # * Arrive here on completion of RAM testing # * # ************************************************************************** # SRBend: ld a, setDD + 4 # to replace "test" on LCD with count out (LCDins), a ld b, dly120 fwait8: djnz fwait8 # give LCD time to do his stuff exx # alternate reg set had DE = error count ld a, h # ...see if it passed or d or e jp nz, SRBerr # skip if errors ld hl, SRB.OK # tell the user all is well jp mssgHL SRB.OK: "OK " .byte 0 # marks end of message halt # we're all done here # # ***** do this if RAM failed test # SRBerr: ld c, h # error count, MSByte ld iy, SRBE.M jr f.hex1 # only show 5 digits, to fit 16-char display SRBE.M: ld c, d # error count, middle byte ld iy, SRBE.L jr f.hex SRBE.L: ld c, e # error count, LSByte ld iy, SRB.em jr f.hex SRB.em: ld hl, errors # message " errors" jp mssgHL errors: " errors" # with 20-bit count, just fits 16-char display .byte 0 # marks end of message SRBhlt: halt # unwise to carry on with duff RAM -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wacarder at usit.net Mon Aug 16 18:26:09 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: [OT] Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <1092696379.22306.802.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 6:46 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: [OT] Help with question about web page access > > > On Mon, 2004-08-16 at 22:27, O. Sharp wrote: > > Jerome H. Fine wrote, in part: > > > Hard to say without seeing the web-site in question, but at the least > > (from your description) it sound like they haven't got their various > > "what-browsers-are-acceptable" pages in sync. I'd be annoyed if I were > > you. :) > > I'd be annoyed if I were me, too. Wait - I *am* me! :-) > > > We're moving our library around, so my relevant books are hiding; but > > from memory, yes, it's possible. HTTP requests are sent with a > handful of > > environmental variables, including brand and version of the browser > > making the request. > > USER_AGENT rings a bell for some reason, but I could be making that up. > Somewhere on the web exists a site where when you visit the page it just > dumps out all the data sent by your browser to the server. Unfortunately > I never ever bookmark it because each time I need it I never think I'll > need it again - d'oh! Anyone? The ServerVariables collection is part of the Request object that is sent from the web browser client to the web server. It contains a number of variables that supply information about the user. Here are a few sites that supply a little intormation on the ServerVariables. I've used these variables frequently on commercial sites that I've built for companies like Ford, Sears, Schwab, etc., where they had much commercial red tape and corporate rules about how to build a web site and what browsers were to be supported, etc. These things come in handy when you need to know the browser type, referring URL, client's IP address, etc. There are also ways to tell the client's screen resolution, color depth, whether they can run java script, use cookies, etc. Take a look at the following sites, which explain in a little more detail..... http://www.newobjects.com/pages/alpdocs/ref-Request-ServerVariables.htm http://www.w3schools.com/asp/coll_servervariables.asp http://www.asp-help.com/objects/intr5vsj.asp http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/en/server/iis/default.asp?url=/windows2 000/en/server/iis/htm/asp/vbob5vsj.htm http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/092298-3.shtml This link will display the current ServerVariables collection, as sent by your browser: http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/demos/servervariables.asp ..... Ashley > > > > O'course, I've long held the opinion that - except in the cases of > > multimedia-bells-and-whistles websites, which are by their > nature heavily > > dependent on what the receiving browser can handle - designing a site > > that requires "Browser X" to be readable is both counterproductive and > > against the site's own interest. Why put together a web presence at all > > if you're going to bar a bunch of potential readers from seeing it at > > the outset? Why make an effort to communicate your message to > the world if > > you're simultaneously going to put up a technology barrier to make sure > > half the people you're trying to reach can't access it? If > you're going to > > write something, don't you want people to _read_ it? > > > > Yep, you and a huge amount of other people - unfortunately it hasn't > filtered through to the moron brigade it seems (who typically code for > and test on IE, probably using Frontpage in the process... ugh) > > > Anyway, it may be simplest to just bite the damnable lead > bullet and get > > a browser upgrade. Mozilla's Firefox may be the way to go: > > Didn't Jerome imply that he couldn't upgrade or install anything > different on this platform? > > Otherwise, yes I agree. My personal favourite's Opera as the download is > tiny compared to other modern browsers, plus you can tell it to identify > itself to a remote server as a few different browsers which can help > access broken sites. And it's incredibly fast at page rendering. > > By the way Jerome, are you sure that you haven't just got some junk left > in your browser's cache (cookies or content) that are causing problems? > The fact that you said you can authenticate against the site and bring > the initial page up but then not see any content beyond that could also > be down to a cache problem. Try shift-reload on an offending page and > see what it does if you haven't already; from memory with that version > of Netscape it should force a reload of the page from the server. > > cheers > > Jules > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 16 18:30:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: PET startup sequence?? (was LF: Commodore PET schematics, troubleshooting info) Message-ID: <200408162330.QAA01955@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Aug 13 2004, 11:27, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> You should try to create a more exhaustive RAM test. >> Although, time consuming, GALPAT is just about the >> most intensive. > >I know Dave doesn't need it now, but a GALPAT is a very slow test for >any sizeable amount of RAM. It's also very old, and not 100% effective >against certain errors, though much better than some of the common >march tests. Hi There are many kinds of test. The simplest effective test for stuck-at and address problems is the March C. It lacks many possible problems that are not simple stuck at. Worst case column test require various types of walks ( GALPAT is one of these ). Still, most simple RAM test Used by POSTs will do about as well as a March C. Now we get into some of the other problems of address line switching, retention and pattern problems. One need not include the entire memory in there GALPAT test. One can work in blocks and then work on a block to block sampling. It is a long test but then it does a lot of things that take a long time. I only suggested it because it seemed that he had an issue that a simple RAM test wasn't showing. I am involved with creating BIST engines for use on arrays in uP's I would never put a GALPAT in a production test but if I can get two address generators, it is easy to implement as a programmable element. It, along with other test, can often be used for diagnostic operations to help understand a fault until a simpler/quicker test can be used to detect that particular fault. Dwight From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 16 18:48:56 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Aug 16, 2004 05:23:31 PM Message-ID: <20040816234856.2B48B109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > I have 2 questions: > > Based on the information on the error page, would a normal user > be ALSO expected to look at the "required browsers" link when > the specific naming of Netscape 4.x was (and still was when this > post was made) displayed as an acceptable browser when I > forgot to turn cookies ON? Sounds like they didn't keep all the pages up in sync, which is all too easy to happen (happened with my site [1] and it's a relatively small site of only a few hundred pages [2]); with larger sites it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are whole sections "forgotten about" sitting there, for the most part dorment except for the stray user or two. You'd think going through the logs files would show them this, but that may be too much data to process for such things [3]. > Could the company have continued to allow users access to the > web site under Netscape 4.78 by the expedient of NOT > providing those users the additional features that users of > Netscape 7.0 and later are provided? NAMELY, do the > fellows setting up the program have the ability to check as to > which version of Netscape is being used and could the program > have retained the old code for those users who stayed with > Netscape 4.78 and used to new code for those users who > shifted to Netscape 7.0 and later? As mentioned elsewhere, this gets expensive. I know that I myself decided not to support Netscape 4x anymore. Granted, I went out of my way to keep Netscape 4x from crashing when visiting my site [5] but a Netscape 4x user is going to have an experience right out of 1993 viewing my site [6]. If Netscape 4 just had better support for CSS (or just plain wouldn't crash in the presense of CSS) ... -spc (Basically, the only thing claiming to be Netscape 4x are mostly web crawlers ... ) [1] http://www.conman.org/ [2] Except for http://boston.conman.org/ and http://literature.conman.org/bible/ which consist of several million pages (theoretical) but they are dynamically generated from templates so it's not that much of an issue. [3] A friend of mine worked at a site (the second largest sports oriented site behind ESPN) where it took over 20 hours to process the web logs for the previous day. Not month; not week; *DAY!* I'm sure cleaning up 404s [4] is not high on their priority list, especially given the number of virii, worms and hack attempts that inflate such figures. [4] Page not found. [5] Netscape 4x is notorious for its hideous support of CSS. [6] http://www.flummux.org/screenshots/old.school.gif for Netscape 4x http://www.flummux.org/screenshots/new.school.gif for Mozilla From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 19:17:05 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? Message-ID: <20040817001705.37586.qmail@web21521.mail.yahoo.com> I've got a monochrome NEC APC (dual 8" floppies) that I was going to eBay, but it hovers right at that magic 70lb rate which seems to hit all kinds of shipping issues with USPS (won't deliver it), UPS (big $$$ surcharge), & FedEx (only deliver to a business address, $$$). Seems by the time you factor in ship costs it wouldn't be worth it unless someone was really desperate. Anyone ever sold-shipped one of these before, and are my concerns founded? On a tangent, anyone in the Boston area interested in one of these that can pickup? If so drop me an email for machine details and maybe we can work something out. rich _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 16 19:40:06 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: <20040817001705.37586.qmail@web21521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rich.... You obviously missed the post of me traveling all over the North Yeast this past weekend with a van. I was right by Boston (Wayland, MA)..... Oh Well... With regards to shipping have you tried DHL? Even though they are merged with UPS, they still (at least here in NY) offer more options on the heavier items. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Bramante >>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 8:17 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? >>> >>> I've got a monochrome NEC APC (dual 8" floppies) that I was >>> going to eBay, but it hovers right at that magic 70lb rate >>> which seems to hit all kinds of shipping issues with USPS >>> (won't deliver it), UPS (big $$$ surcharge), & FedEx (only >>> deliver to a business address, $$$). Seems by the time you >>> factor in ship costs it wouldn't be worth it unless someone >>> was really desperate. >>> >>> Anyone ever sold-shipped one of these before, and are my >>> concerns founded? >>> >>> On a tangent, anyone in the Boston area interested in one >>> of these that can pickup? If so drop me an email for >>> machine details and maybe we can work something out. >>> >>> rich >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________ >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. >>> http://messenger.yahoo.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 16 19:36:24 2004 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? Message-ID: <149.30cf38d0.2e52ad08@aol.com> >I've got a monochrome NEC APC (dual 8" floppies) that >I was going to eBay, but it hovers right at that magic >70lb rate which seems to hit all kinds of shipping >issues with USPS (won't deliver it), UPS (big $$$ >surcharge), & FedEx (only deliver to a business >address, $$$). Seems by the time you factor in ship >costs it wouldn't be worth it unless someone was >really desperate. Fedex ground ships to home addresses you know. Price isnt too bad. You could also try Airborne/DHL or Emery/Menlo worldwide for ideas also. -- I am not willing to give up my liberties for the appearance of 'security' From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 19:50:06 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: <149.30cf38d0.2e52ad08@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040817005006.75357.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> FedEx will only ship packages up to 70lbs to residential addresses. Anything over 70 they will only deliver to a business address. rich --- SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Fedex ground ships to home addresses you know. Price > isnt too bad. You could > also try Airborne/DHL or Emery/Menlo worldwide for > ideas also. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 16 20:20:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: <20040817005006.75357.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Going Fast... PDP-1 (alleged) Original paper tapes... Ebay #5114435762 DEC PDP LINC tapes (DECTape) qty: 5 DIAL-v2 included NOT affiliated with this item...Just way over commited at this point to even bid.... David From wacarder at usit.net Mon Aug 16 20:26:09 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040816234856.2B48B109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sean 'Captain Napalm' > Conner > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 7:49 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access > > > It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > > > I have 2 questions: > > > > Based on the information on the error page, would a normal user > > be ALSO expected to look at the "required browsers" link when > > the specific naming of Netscape 4.x was (and still was when this > > post was made) displayed as an acceptable browser when I > > forgot to turn cookies ON? > > Sounds like they didn't keep all the pages up in sync, which is all too > easy to happen (happened with my site [1] and it's a relatively small site > of only a few hundred pages [2]); with larger sites it wouldn't > surprise me > at all if there are whole sections "forgotten about" sitting > there, for the > most part dorment except for the stray user or two. You'd think going > through the logs files would show them this, but that may be too much data > to process for such things [3]. > > > Could the company have continued to allow users access to the > > web site under Netscape 4.78 by the expedient of NOT > > providing those users the additional features that users of > > Netscape 7.0 and later are provided? NAMELY, do the > > fellows setting up the program have the ability to check as to > > which version of Netscape is being used and could the program > > have retained the old code for those users who stayed with > > Netscape 4.78 and used to new code for those users who > > shifted to Netscape 7.0 and later? > > As mentioned elsewhere, this gets expensive. I know that I > myself decided > not to support Netscape 4x anymore. Granted, I went out of my way to keep About a year and a half ago, one of my higher volume sites (50,000 hits per day, I think) showed that 95% of all users were Internet Explorer and about 2 or 3 percent were Netscape. I still had to support Netscape, though, and our staff spent many hours coding things so that web sites would remain Netscape friendly. > Netscape 4x from crashing when visiting my site [5] but a Netscape 4x user > is going to have an experience right out of 1993 viewing my site [6]. If > Netscape 4 just had better support for CSS (or just plain > wouldn't crash in > the presense of CSS) ... > > -spc (Basically, the only thing claiming to be Netscape 4x are > mostly web > crawlers ... ) > > [1] http://www.conman.org/ > > [2] Except for http://boston.conman.org/ and > http://literature.conman.org/bible/ which consist of several million > pages (theoretical) but they are dynamically generated from > templates so it's not that much of an issue. > > [3] A friend of mine worked at a site (the second largest sports > oriented site behind ESPN) where it took over 20 hours to process > the web logs for the previous day. Not month; not week; *DAY!* I'm > sure cleaning up 404s [4] is not high on their priority list, > especially given the number of virii, worms and hack attempts that > inflate such figures. > > [4] Page not found. > > [5] Netscape 4x is notorious for its hideous support of CSS. > > [6] http://www.flummux.org/screenshots/old.school.gif for Netscape 4x > http://www.flummux.org/screenshots/new.school.gif for Mozilla > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 16 20:18:08 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: [OT] Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <1092696379.22306.802.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1092696379.22306.802.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200408170121.VAA17480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Somewhere on the web exists a site where when you visit the page it > just dumps out all the data sent by your browser to the server. > Unfortunately I never ever bookmark it because each time I need it I > never think I'll need it again - d'oh! http://privacy.net/analyze/ (linked to off their main webpage) is something like that. Their "who registered your domain" test clearly does not understand how .ca domains work; it went looking for qc.ca, which does not exist in its own right any more than ac.uk does. But otherwise, it looks fairly sane. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wacarder at usit.net Mon Aug 16 20:34:58 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, I'm going to try to get them. Does anyone have a PDP-1? I'll try to get an image of the contents of the tape if I win. Question for list members.... what's the oldest functioning PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your knowledge? Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 9:21 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > Importance: High > > > Going Fast... PDP-1 (alleged) Original paper tapes... Ebay #5114435762 > > > > DEC PDP LINC tapes (DECTape) qty: 5 DIAL-v2 included > > NOT affiliated with this item...Just way over commited at this > point to even > bid.... > > David > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 16 20:24:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408170126.VAA17525@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > WCS (Writeable Control Store) options were available for a few models > of PDP11 to allow the user to write microcode. Some of the earlier VAXen, too. BSD on the VAX-11/750 normally loads a file (canonically, /pcs750.bin) into the WCS at boot. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 16 20:34:59 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:15 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) Message-ID: <20040817013459.C19E53BE8@spies.com> > I'll try to get an image of the contents of the tape if I win. The tapes have already been read. From blair at averagebacon.com Mon Aug 16 20:39:02 2004 From: blair at averagebacon.com (Blair Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Compaq Luggable on eBay (ending soon) In-Reply-To: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbe041728@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbe041728@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <412161B6.4020704@averagebacon.com> Just thought folks might be interested in this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5115163292&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT Blair From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 20:40:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: <20040817001705.37586.qmail@web21521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > I've got a monochrome NEC APC (dual 8" floppies) that > I was going to eBay, but it hovers right at that magic > 70lb rate which seems to hit all kinds of shipping > issues with USPS (won't deliver it), UPS (big $$$ > surcharge), & FedEx (only deliver to a business > address, $$$). Seems by the time you factor in ship > costs it wouldn't be worth it unless someone was > really desperate. > > Anyone ever sold-shipped one of these before, and are > my concerns founded? I just had a package shipped to me which, according to Fedex, weighed 75 pounds. I had the sender use one of my pre-paid shipping labels. No problems. Perhaps the pre-paid label helped. It only cost $39 according to the breakdown. This was from Texas to California. > On a tangent, anyone in the Boston area interested in > one of these that can pickup? If so drop me an email > for machine details and maybe we can work something > out. What model is it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 20:42:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > With regards to shipping have you tried DHL? Even though they are merged > with UPS, they still (at least here in NY) offer more options on the heavier > items. When did this happen? As far as I know, DHL merged with Airborne Express earlier this year. DHL is a great service. They are cheaper than UPS or Fedex for very large items (i.e. 75 pounds and up). Their shipping charges for your average size packages are on par with Fedex and UPS. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 20:43:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: <149.30cf38d0.2e52ad08@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Fedex ground ships to home addresses you know. Price isnt too bad. You could > also try Airborne/DHL or Emery/Menlo worldwide for ideas also. Menlo is another excellent shipper. I used them to ship the PDP-1 replica I built to Japan. It got there in 5 days by air for less than $1,700. This was two large crates. They are very competitive, especially on international shipping. They beat Fedex, UPS, and DHL hands down. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 16 21:00:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Question for list members.... what's the oldest functioning >>> PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your knowledge? Of course Sellam is the (apparent) winner fror the creator of the newest oldest computer with hish series of replicas... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 16 20:54:34 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Compaq Luggable on eBay (ending soon) In-Reply-To: <412161B6.4020704@averagebacon.com> References: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbe041728@huey.classiccmp.org> <412161B6.4020704@averagebacon.com> Message-ID: <20040816185046.Y23266@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Blair Miller wrote: > Hey all, > The subject says it all: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113549953 > Sincerely, > Blair Miller On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Blair Miller wrote: > Just thought folks might be interested in this one: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5115163292&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT > Blair It's the same one, but he has lowered the starting bid to $40 From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 20:55:35 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040817015535.47837.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > > > I've got a monochrome NEC APC (dual 8" floppies) that > > I was going to eBay, but it hovers right at that magic > > 70lb rate which seems to hit all kinds of shipping > > issues with USPS (won't deliver it), UPS (big $$$ > > surcharge), & FedEx (only deliver to a business > > address, $$$). Seems by the time you factor in ship > > costs it wouldn't be worth it unless someone was > > really desperate. > > > > Anyone ever sold-shipped one of these before, and are > > my concerns founded? > > I just had a package shipped to me which, according to Fedex, weighed 75 > pounds. I had the sender use one of my pre-paid shipping labels. No > problems. Perhaps the pre-paid label helped. It only cost $39 according > to the breakdown. This was from Texas to California. Yes, 75lbs is about what I am guessing once the box and packing materials is added in. I assume you had it shipped to your business address, so Fedex wouldn't beef about the weight. > > On a tangent, anyone in the Boston area interested in > > one of these that can pickup? If so drop me an email > > for machine details and maybe we can work something > > out. > > What model is it? It is an APC I (APC-H01 Basic Monochrome APC) the big honkin' unibody with the dual 8" floppies. I also have a very clean APC III which I am loathe to part with, but could make it available for a really good offer ;-) I am trying to sell alot of what I currently have and just concentrate on a small subset of systems. The old time/space argument. rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 16 21:02:44 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: from "Ashley Carder" at Aug 16, 2004 09:26:09 PM Message-ID: <20040817020244.1CC3F109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ashley Carder once stated: > > About a year and a half ago, one of my higher volume sites (50,000 hits > per day, I think) showed that 95% of all users were Internet Explorer > and about 2 or 3 percent were Netscape. I still had to support Netscape, > though, and our staff spent many hours coding things so that web sites > would remain Netscape friendly. I would double check the hit patterns. My own experience with Netscape 4 counters yours. One site I just checked (for 12th of August) received 22,000 hits that day (about half your site from 18 months ago). Checking for Mozilla/4 (Netscape 4x) and filtering out MSIE ended up with the following: 28 Mozilla/4.77 [en] (Win98; U) 16 Mozilla/4.76 [en] (PalmOS; U; WebPro3.0; Palm-Arz1) 2 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible;) Granted, the site "works" better in MSIE, so on the assumption it wasn't a valid sample, I then used the logs from one of my own personal sites [1] that received 38,000 hits last month. The results there were: 945 Mozilla/4.0 compatible ZyBorg/1.0 (wn-2.zyborg@looksmart.net; http://www.WISEnutbot.com) 669 Mozilla/4.08 109 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-2.3) 28 Mozilla/4.0 23 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-1.5.3; Crawl your own stuff with http://grub.org) 18 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible) 16 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible;) 12 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-1.0.5; Crawl your own stuff with http://grub.org) 8 Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win98; I) 6 Mozilla/4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) 6 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Win32; WinHttp.WinHttpRequest.5) 5 Mozilla/4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.39 i486; Nav) 4 Mozilla/4.75 [de] (Windows NT 5.0; U) 4 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; BorderManager 3.0) 3 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-1.4.3; Crawl your own stuff with http://grub.org) 2 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MS FrontPage 6.0) 1 Mozilla/4.78 [en] (Win95; U) 1 Mozilla/4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) 1 Mozilla/4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) 1 Mozilla/4.73 [de]C-CCK-MCD DT (Win98; U) 1 Mozilla/4.61 [en] (Win98; I) 1 Mozilla/4.61 [en] (OS/2; U) 1 Mozilla/4.5 (compatible; HTTrack 3.0x; Windows 98) 1 Mozilla/4.5 (compatible; HTTrack 2.0x; Windows 98) 1 Mozilla/4.0 compatible ZyBorg/1.0 Dead Link Checker (wn.dlc@looksmart.net; http://www.WISEnutbot.com) 1 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Netcraft Web Server Survey) 1 Mozilla/4.0 (Windows NT 4.0) 1 Mozilla/4.0 (Exotic Crawler) So, about 31 true Netscape 4 users that I can tell, or about 0.08% of the users to my site. I think it's probably safe to ignore Netscape 4 for the most part. -spc (at least, in my case ... ) [1] http://boston.conman.org From wacarder at usit.net Mon Aug 16 21:15:05 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: <20040817013459.C19E53BE8@spies.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 9:35 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > > > > > I'll try to get an image of the contents of the tape if I win. > > The tapes have already been read. > Oh well, I suppose I'll still have an very interesting old collectible item if I win. That will be the oldest DEC item that I have (if I win). Ashley From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 16 21:06:43 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: <20040817005006.75357.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040817005006.75357.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200408162106.43876.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 16 August 2004 19:50, Rich Bramante wrote: > FedEx will only ship packages up to 70lbs to > residential addresses. Anything over 70 they will > only deliver to a business address. I've shipped several things that weighed from 70 to just under 150 lbs to residential addresses with FEDEX. All you have to do is *not* mark the box that says "residential address" and they accept it, no questions asked. Trust me, I've done this before (and had to repack a box because it was 5-10lbs over their 150lb limit). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wacarder at usit.net Mon Aug 16 21:19:03 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040817020244.1CC3F109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sean 'Captain Napalm' > Conner > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 10:03 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access > > > It was thus said that the Great Ashley Carder once stated: > > > > About a year and a half ago, one of my higher volume sites (50,000 hits > > per day, I think) showed that 95% of all users were Internet Explorer > > and about 2 or 3 percent were Netscape. I still had to support > Netscape, > > though, and our staff spent many hours coding things so that web sites > > would remain Netscape friendly. > > I would double check the hit patterns. It may have been 2 years or more ago. I do recall that Netscape numbers just seemed to go down, down, down as IE got more and more of the user base. > My own experience with > Netscape 4 > counters yours. One site I just checked (for 12th of August) received > 22,000 hits that day (about half your site from 18 months ago). Checking > for Mozilla/4 (Netscape 4x) and filtering out MSIE ended up with the > following: > > 28 Mozilla/4.77 [en] (Win98; U) > 16 Mozilla/4.76 [en] (PalmOS; U; WebPro3.0; Palm-Arz1) > 2 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible;) > > Granted, the site "works" better in MSIE, so on the assumption > it wasn't a > valid sample, I then used the logs from one of my own personal sites [1] > that received 38,000 hits last month. The results there were: > > 945 Mozilla/4.0 compatible ZyBorg/1.0 > (wn-2.zyborg@looksmart.net; http://www.WISEnutbot.com) > 669 Mozilla/4.08 > 109 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-2.3) > 28 Mozilla/4.0 > 23 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-1.5.3; Crawl your > own stuff with http://grub.org) > 18 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible) > 16 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible;) > 12 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-1.0.5; Crawl your > own stuff with http://grub.org) > 8 Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win98; I) > 6 Mozilla/4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) > 6 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Win32; WinHttp.WinHttpRequest.5) > 5 Mozilla/4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.39 i486; Nav) > 4 Mozilla/4.75 [de] (Windows NT 5.0; U) > 4 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; BorderManager 3.0) > 3 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; grub-client-1.4.3; Crawl your > own stuff with http://grub.org) > 2 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MS FrontPage 6.0) > 1 Mozilla/4.78 [en] (Win95; U) > 1 Mozilla/4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) > 1 Mozilla/4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) > 1 Mozilla/4.73 [de]C-CCK-MCD DT (Win98; U) > 1 Mozilla/4.61 [en] (Win98; I) > 1 Mozilla/4.61 [en] (OS/2; U) > 1 Mozilla/4.5 (compatible; HTTrack 3.0x; Windows 98) > 1 Mozilla/4.5 (compatible; HTTrack 2.0x; Windows 98) > 1 Mozilla/4.0 compatible ZyBorg/1.0 Dead Link Checker > (wn.dlc@looksmart.net; http://www.WISEnutbot.com) > 1 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Netcraft Web Server Survey) > 1 Mozilla/4.0 (Windows NT 4.0) > 1 Mozilla/4.0 (Exotic Crawler) > > So, about 31 true Netscape 4 users that I can tell, or about > 0.08% of the > users to my site. I think it's probably safe to ignore Netscape 4 for the > most part. > > -spc (at least, in my case ... ) > > [1] http://boston.conman.org > > From aek at spies.com Mon Aug 16 21:15:47 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) Message-ID: <20040817021547.83D533C7D@spies.com> >>> Question for list members.... what's the oldest functioning >>> PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your knowledge? The Computer History Museum's PDP-1 http://pdp-1.org/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 21:20:03 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040817022003.11220.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> > Question for list members.... what's the oldest > functioning > PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your > knowledge? The Computer History Museum has a PDP-1. It has been underdoing restoration, and I saw the CPU running diagnostics at an event there last Saturday. The museum actually has three PDP-1s, including the prototype and another that is "on tour". As far as I know, these are the only PDP-1s known to exist. A member of the restoration team said that only 50 were manufactured. --Bill From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Aug 16 21:20:44 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David V. Corbin pointed out the following eBay item: > DEC PDP LINC tapes (DECTape) qty: 5 DIAL-v2 included I for one would be just as happy if nobody sniped me on this. :/ (Incidentally, be aware that the shipping costs are, uhm, a bit more than typical domestic U.S. shipping...) -O.- From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Aug 16 21:39:03 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: [OT] Help with question about web page access References: <1092696379.22306.802.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <41216FC7.73E93762@compsys.to> >Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Mon, 2004-08-16 at 22:27, O. Sharp wrote: > > Hard to say without seeing the web-site in question, but at the least > > (from your description) it sound like they haven't got their various > > "what-browsers-are-acceptable" pages in sync. I'd be annoyed if I were > > you. :) > I'd be annoyed if I were me, too. Wait - I *am* me! :-) Jerome Fine replies: Thank you very much everyone for the help! I answered the reply from Jules since it did not get into too much detail. First, a tiny bit more information. The 2 applications that I am accessing are bank records for my son who I am helping with things that he needs done which he does not have time for. One of the banks STILL allows me to use Netscape 4.78 and do EVERYTHING I want to do. It is the other bank which changed things. These are the ONLY 2 web sites that I look at which require cookies - if any others require cookies, I just don't bother with them. The aspect about the "out-of-sync" information is that the bank still (after more than 2 weeks) displays the same error page when cookies are off telling users that cookies MUST be turned ON to use the web site and how to do so for 4 browsers INCLUDING "Netscape 4.x". My "annoyance" is more that since I "frequently" forgot to turn cookies ON (which I accepted was necessary and corrected the cookie setting so that I could access the bank records), that error page was seen all the time with the message that Netscape 4.x was acceptable. So at the VERY least, the bank could have included a warning message to users on that error page that Netscape 4.x would soon be UNACCEPTABLE and Netscape 7.0 would be required. By ignoring the error message page insofar as placing a warning that Netscape 7.0 would soon be REQUIRED, myself and other users (the bank admits that other Netscape 4.x users were also caught unawares) were left out in the cold. Such is typical these days, as far as I understand, but that does not make it reasonable as far as I am concerned! BUT, what is even more "annoying" is that the bank actually quite freely admits that they CHOSE to not even consider if they could accommodate the users not using Netscape 7.0! > By the way Jerome, are you sure that you haven't just got some junk left > in your browser's cache (cookies or content) that are causing problems? > The fact that you said you can authenticate against the site and bring > the initial page up but then not see any content beyond that could also > be down to a cache problem. Try shift-reload on an offending page and > see what it does if you haven't already; from memory with that version > of Netscape it should force a reload of the page from the server. The bank definitely states that Netscape 7.0 is REQUIRED and even though I can successfully provide my userid / password to obtain the account balances, I can't get any further when I go to other pages to obtain recent transactions. As stated by others, Netscape is not used very much. BUT, I just can't see that it would have cost the bank very much at all to at least keep Netscape 4.78 users happy for a while by retaining the old code along with the restrictions and provide the users who did upgrade with the new features. After all, things were working with all Netscape versions up until the end of August! If I can still access my account balances, I can't see that the account details are no longer available, just that under Netscape 4.78 they are not being displayed when I get to the page with the new code that is used to display those details with Netscape 7.0 and higher! So it very likely would only have meant that the old code would have been retained along with a check to see which version of Netscape was being used. After all, if there is code to handle both IE 5.x, IE 6.x, Netscape 4.x and Netscape 6.x to start with, it would take very little more to just add Netscape 7.x, at least that seems to be the answer to my original question. Anyone who understands how things like bank records are accessed and has read this far, PLEASE confirm that it would likely have been possible to just include Netscape 7.x using the new features, but still retain Netscape 4.78 with the old features - PLEASE!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Aug 16 21:51:15 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Figures that the auction would get pointed out by someone right before the end, I suppose... I wrote: > I for one would be just as happy if nobody sniped me on this. :/ Grrrrr. Ah, well. :( > (Incidentally, be aware that the shipping costs are, uhm, a bit more than > typical domestic U.S. shipping...) Well, when the shipping cost is revealed to the new buyer, maybe they'll reconsider and sell it to me instead. :) :) -O.- From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 16 23:24:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? In-Reply-To: <20040817015535.47837.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > It is an APC I (APC-H01 Basic Monochrome APC) the big honkin' unibody > with the dual 8" floppies. I also have a very clean APC III which I am > loathe to part with, but could make it available for a really good offer > ;-) I am trying to sell alot of what I currently have and just > concentrate on a small subset of systems. The old time/space argument. If I didn't just get a large shipment in of stuff I'd send you a pre-paid shipping label for it :( If you still have it in a week or two then let me know. I think I'm interested. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Aug 17 00:20:08 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 References: Message-ID: <000801c48419$dd0b7160$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Tony Duell" > It is, of course, possible to make a processor where the microcode can be > changed by the user. Many early graphics workstations (the PERQ, many of > the Xerox machines, etc) had microcode that was loaded from disk when the > machine booted. WCS (Writeable Control Store) options were available for > a few models of PDP11 to allow the user to write microcode. > My first encounter with 8" floppies was with a S/370, IIRC. There was a vertical floppy drive near the top of the system. What was that used for ? Microcode, diagnostics, .... ? Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06-08-2004 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 17 00:27:23 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408162227.23513.lbickley@bickleywest.com> The Computer History Museum has a working PDP-1 computer (Passes all the PDP-1 instruction and memory diagnostics). Several of us on this list are members of the restoration team. See: http://pdp-1.org/ You might want to take a look at the "News" column that provides a running commentary on our activities. Lyle On Monday 16 August 2004 18:34, Ashley Carder wrote: > Ok, I'm going to try to get them. > Does anyone have a PDP-1? > > I'll try to get an image of the contents of the tape if I win. > > Question for list members.... what's the oldest functioning > PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your knowledge? > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 9:21 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > > Importance: High > > > > > > Going Fast... PDP-1 (alleged) Original paper tapes... Ebay #5114435762 > > > > > > > > DEC PDP LINC tapes (DECTape) qty: 5 DIAL-v2 included > > > > NOT affiliated with this item...Just way over commited at this > > point to even > > bid.... > > > > David -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From hansp at citem.org Tue Aug 17 00:30:15 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: First floppy was Re: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <000801c48419$dd0b7160$2201a8c0@finans> References: <000801c48419$dd0b7160$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <412197E7.5090102@citem.org> Nico de Jong wrote: > My first encounter with 8" floppies was with a S/370, IIRC. > There was a vertical floppy drive near the top of the system. > What was that used for ? Microcode, diagnostics, .... ? The 8" floppy was invented as a method of loading microcode and first used for the IBM 3330 disk controller and soon thereafter for 370 series processors. At that time it was a read only device (at the customer site) http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa110198.htm -- HansP From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 00:35:54 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <000801c48419$dd0b7160$2201a8c0@finans> References: <000801c48419$dd0b7160$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4121993A.4080605@pacbell.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Tony Duell" > >>It is, of course, possible to make a processor where the microcode can be >>changed by the user. Many early graphics workstations (the PERQ, many of >>the Xerox machines, etc) had microcode that was loaded from disk when the >>machine booted. WCS (Writeable Control Store) options were available for >>a few models of PDP11 to allow the user to write microcode. Actually, intel and AMD x86 chips all have a small WCS for patching bugs that are discovered after the chips are out in the field. The BIOS loads these patch words on boot up. To make this more vintage, I will relate it to something I know and qualifies as vintage. The Wang 2200 had boards full of low-density ROMs (at least originally -- over time they replaced the ROM boards with a single board as the density of available ROMs went up). Because doing a field upgrade of 70+ mask ROM chips would have been really expensive (no usable EPROM then), Wang had a very interesting ucode patch mechanism somewhat like that employed by AMD and Intel. After a system was out in the field, if a ucode patch had to be employed, a "patch" board would go out to update the system. The patch board was a small PLA made from diodes and resistors, the output of which would (1) assert a signal to disable the ROM boards and (2) generate an address to a patch ROM that supplied the replacement ucode. Apparently that was cheaper than retrofitting all the ROMs. When the 2200 VP model came around (1975 or so) they changed to a WCS scheme. From dmhills at attglobal.net Tue Aug 17 00:37:44 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <000801c48419$dd0b7160$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: "Nico de Jong" wrote: >My first encounter with 8" floppies was with a S/370, IIRC. >There was a vertical floppy drive near the top of the system. >What was that used for ? Microcode, diagnostics, .... ? If the system was a bench-height, long box with the drive at one end, it was most likely a 4341 or 4361. If so, the answer to your question is "All of the above and more." It normally did the IMPL (Initial Micro-Program Load) and was also used to load diagnostics when required. It could also be used to load data from data-entry system diskettes (e.g 3741/3742). There was also a feature/RPQ that added a second drive "piggy backed" on the first one that was dedicated to data entry. If you needed to do bulk reading of diskettes, there was a channel-attached box (that I forget the number of) that had a hopper on the top to take stacks of diskettes. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 17 04:07:00 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> Message-ID: <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> Jerome H. Fine said: > I realize that the 2 questions I have are NOT within the 10 year > rule, but I really could use some help! > > While I have been using computers for over 40 years, I > have stayed with very old systems as far as programming > and writing programs is concerned. Thus, under Windows 98 > SE and Netsacpe 4.78 (which is what I am using to access > the internet and this news group), I am ONLY able to use > the operating system and the application; I am NOT able to > make any modifications which is how I usually proceed when > I encounter any problems. Windows 98 is now six years old, and is really just a facelifted version of Windows 95 - very nearly 10 years old. Win 98 is no longer supported by Microsoft, so good luck patching for any vulnerabilities. You could try using Windows 2000 - pretty much anything better than a PII-350 will run it, if you've got enough memory (anything less than 256M is a waste of time). As far as the browser is concerned, I thoroughly recommend switching to Mozilla Firefox. Netscape 4.78 is possibly the most broken web browser known to exist. Have you thought about switching to Linux? One of the advantages of that, is that you can specify nearly anything about your system to be just how you want it. You can use the latest-and-greatest kernel, built with support for your machine, nothing more and nothing less, thus saving a fair bit of memory. You can choose an extremely shiny GUI if you've got cycles to spare (antialiased text is pretty, but it fair hoovers up MIPs), a really stripped down GUI (hey, you can make FVWM look really nice if you work at it), or no GUI at all (I hardly ever start X on one of my laptops). Without wishing to seem disrespectful or unpleasant, you are basically complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern motorway traffic. > Because I ALWAYS run Netscape with cookies turned OFF, > except when I am required to have cookies enabled to access the > 2 web pages that I normally use, I often encountered the error > page which listed Netscape 4.x as one of the required browsers. Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? So an advert banner site knows that the same computer visited it twice. Big wow. Do you stop answering the doorbell in case it's a door-to-door salesman? Well, you might, but it would break more things than it would fix. Gordon JC Pearce. From wacarder at usit.net Tue Aug 17 05:02:23 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: <200408162227.23513.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: I took a look at that last night after Al pointed me to that site. That sounds like a *VERY* interesting project! I've added the URL to my favorites and will continue to follow your activities. Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 1:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > > > The Computer History Museum has a working PDP-1 computer (Passes > all the PDP-1 > instruction and memory diagnostics). Several of us on this list > are members > of the restoration team. See: > > http://pdp-1.org/ > > You might want to take a look at the "News" column that provides > a running > commentary on our activities. > > Lyle > > On Monday 16 August 2004 18:34, Ashley Carder wrote: > > Ok, I'm going to try to get them. > > Does anyone have a PDP-1? > > > > I'll try to get an image of the contents of the tape if I win. > > > > Question for list members.... what's the oldest functioning > > PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your knowledge? > > > > Ashley > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > > > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 9:21 PM > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > > > Importance: High > > > > > > > > > Going Fast... PDP-1 (alleged) Original paper tapes... Ebay #5114435762 > > > > > > > > > > > > DEC PDP LINC tapes (DECTape) qty: 5 DIAL-v2 included > > > > > > NOT affiliated with this item...Just way over commited at this > > > point to even > > > bid.... > > > > > > David > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 05:38:54 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? Message-ID: <19830975.1092739135214.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> just a thought, remove the two 8" drives and ship them separately. It will also make the system a little less prone to internal breakup when the shipper keeps dropping it on a corner... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Rich Bramante Sent: Aug 16, 2004 9:55 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Anyone ever shipped an NEC APC? --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > > > I've got a monochrome NEC APC (dual 8" floppies) that > > I was going to eBay, but it hovers right at that magic > > 70lb rate which seems to hit all kinds of shipping > > issues with USPS (won't deliver it), UPS (big $$$ > > surcharge), & FedEx (only deliver to a business > > address, $$$). Seems by the time you factor in ship > > costs it wouldn't be worth it unless someone was > > really desperate. > > > > Anyone ever sold-shipped one of these before, and are > > my concerns founded? > > I just had a package shipped to me which, according to Fedex, weighed 75 > pounds. I had the sender use one of my pre-paid shipping labels. No > problems. Perhaps the pre-paid label helped. It only cost $39 according > to the breakdown. This was from Texas to California. Yes, 75lbs is about what I am guessing once the box and packing materials is added in. I assume you had it shipped to your business address, so Fedex wouldn't beef about the weight. > > On a tangent, anyone in the Boston area interested in > > one of these that can pickup? If so drop me an email > > for machine details and maybe we can work something > > out. > > What model is it? It is an APC I (APC-H01 Basic Monochrome APC) the big honkin' unibody with the dual 8" floppies. I also have a very clean APC III which I am loathe to part with, but could make it available for a really good offer ;-) I am trying to sell alot of what I currently have and just concentrate on a small subset of systems. The old time/space argument. rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 17 07:21:56 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040817020244.1CC3F109AD00@swift.conman.org> References: <20040817020244.1CC3F109AD00@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <1092745315.23527.60.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 02:02, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I would double check the hit patterns. My own experience with Netscape 4 > counters yours. One site I just checked (for 12th of August) received > 22,000 hits that day (about half your site from 18 months ago). Checking > for Mozilla/4 (Netscape 4x) and filtering out MSIE ended up with the > following: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp gives browser stats by month. cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 17 08:05:45 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Aug 17, 4 10:07:00 am" Message-ID: <200408171305.GAA12696@floodgap.com> > Windows 98 is now six years old, and is really just a facelifted version > of Windows 95 - very nearly 10 years old. Win 98 is no longer supported > by Microsoft, so good luck patching for any vulnerabilities. This isn't true, actually -- Microsoft did try to kill Win 98, but they received so many complaints from home and corporate users (Win98 is still in use on a large segment of machines) that they still offer support through windowsupdate for critical-level security patches (the most recent PNG vulnerability, as well as the ADODB exploit, for example, were all patched for 98 and ME as well). While Microsoft will no longer sell you 98, they have extended the period of time for which they will support it. I don't recall the official kill off date, but it's still off in the future. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The best things in life are sold out. -------------------------------------- From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 17 09:22:17 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <1092745315.23527.60.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20040817020244.1CC3F109AD00@swift.conman.org> <1092745315.23527.60.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200408171022.17970.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 08:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 02:02, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > I would double check the hit patterns. My own experience with > > Netscape 4 counters yours. One site I just checked (for 12th of > > August) received 22,000 hits that day (about half your site from 18 > > months ago). Checking for Mozilla/4 (Netscape 4x) and filtering out > > MSIE ended up with the following: > > http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp gives browser stats > by month. One thing to watch for in the numbers is Konqueror allows you to set the Browser identification so that you can deal with web sites that require a certain browser to work. I have it set it IE6 for my bank. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 17 09:38:25 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> Message-ID: <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Windows 98 is now six years old, and is really just a facelifted version > of Windows 95 - very nearly 10 years old. Win 98 is no longer supported > by Microsoft, so good luck patching for any vulnerabilities. You could > try using Windows 2000 - pretty much anything better than a PII-350 will > run it, if you've got enough memory (anything less than 256M is a waste of > time). As far as the browser is concerned, I thoroughly recommend > switching to Mozilla Firefox. Netscape 4.78 is possibly the most broken > web browser known to exist. Jerome Fine replies: First, Microsoft still supports Windows 98 SE, although I must admit that every time I accept patches, it crashes my system. Second, the ONLY reason I stay with Windows 98 SE is because Ersatz-11 runs correctly for me ONLY under Windows 98 SE. I use MACRO-11 99% of the time to write programs and I MUST have 132 character lines when I use the editor under RT-11. None of the other Window OSs that I tested would support 132 character lines, although Ersatz-11 does mostly run under those other OSs, just not quite as complete. Actually, I will probably upgrade to a Pentium 4 by the end of this year, just in time to obtain a motherboard that can handle a separate AGP adapter with ATI firmware that supports 132 character lines with Ersatz-11. The 750 MHz Pentium III is now just 2 1/2 years old, so I would have preferred to use it for at least 4 or 5 more years. As for Netscape, I have saved all my e-mails and news groups posts. Shifting to IE would be almost a disaster. And since one bank still allows Netscape 4.78, I would presume that the other bank would not really have a problem continuing to support Netscape 4.78 if they chose to do so. But since it is highly probable that, as a large organization, the bank is infected with the same mentality as Microsoft, the bank just does not care. It is not as if they are being asked to support a new interface, just to continue to support the old one which until the end of July was the case! > Without wishing to seem disrespectful or unpleasant, you are basically > complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern motorway > traffic. Actually, I would be quite happy to use a Morris Minor if the spare parts were available. I don't drive on highway often enough to matter! I still find Netscape 4.78 more than competitive with IE on the few times I need to use my wife's computer. > > Because I ALWAYS run Netscape with cookies turned OFF, > > except when I am required to have cookies enabled to access the > > 2 web pages that I normally use, I often encountered the error > > page which listed Netscape 4.x as one of the required browsers. > Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? > So an advert banner site knows that the same computer visited it twice. > Big wow. Do you stop answering the doorbell in case it's a door-to-door > salesman? Well, you might, but it would break more things than it would > fix. >From my point of view, except for the 2 bank sites I use because I am helping my son, I refuse to use any other sites where cookies are required. And more to the point, I set Netscape to notify me when the doorbell is being run even then. I just feel it is a good idea to know if the doorbell is being rung and then to answer it myself rather than allowing open door access, even to a web site that is likely more reputable than most. For all other sites, I just NEVER even listen when they ring the doorbell. Actually, can you explain what advantage cookies provide? Is there something about cookies which they do which can't be done without cookies????????????? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 17 09:49:33 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040816234856.2B48B109AD00@swift.conman.org> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Aug 16, 2004 05:23:31 PM Message-ID: <4122371D.14135.29282C21@localhost> Am 16 Aug 2004 19:48 meinte Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner: > > for those users who stayed with > > Netscape 4.78 and used to new code for those users who > > shifted to Netscape 7.0 and later? > As mentioned elsewhere, this gets expensive. I know that I myself decided > not to support Netscape 4x anymore. Granted, I went out of my way to keep > Netscape 4x from crashing when visiting my site [5] but a Netscape 4x user > is going to have an experience right out of 1993 viewing my site [6]. If > Netscape 4 just had better support for CSS (or just plain wouldn't crash in > the presense of CSS) ... Well, or just skip the stupid CSS (and it'S precessor, the dreaded FONT tag). Why can't we just do HTML pages the way they are ment to be? And more of all: WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT IN MY FACE? Gruss H. P.S.: I know that you know that we have different opinions here :) -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From wacarder at usit.net Tue Aug 17 09:55:48 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to><41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <000801c4846a$4911a730$5a120f14@mcothran1> > Actually, can you explain what advantage cookies provide? > Is there something about cookies which they do which can't > be done without cookies????????????? > > Sincerely yours, > Jerome Fine Cookies can be used to maintain information about a user one THEIR computer. This way the user does not have to re-enter the same information each time they visit a web site. For example, I use cookies on some of my personal sites so that a user can tell me his/her name when they first visit, then I drop a cookie on their system that contains their name and they never have to enter it again. On subsequent visits I just read for the cookie rather than asking them for their name again. I use this to identify a particular user on some sites where I like to know who visits, but where the site's not sensitive enough to implement a user id and password login process. This works fine in a "non-public" computer environment. Ashley From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 17 09:55:37 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to><41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1855.195.212.29.83.1092754537.squirrel@server.inet> Jerome H. Fine said: >>Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Windows 98 is now six years old, and is really just a facelifted version >> of Windows 95 - very nearly 10 years old. Win 98 is no longer supported >> by Microsoft, so good luck patching for any vulnerabilities. You could >> try using Windows 2000 - pretty much anything better than a PII-350 will >> run it, if you've got enough memory (anything less than 256M is a waste >> of >> time). As far as the browser is concerned, I thoroughly recommend >> switching to Mozilla Firefox. Netscape 4.78 is possibly the most broken >> web browser known to exist. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > First, Microsoft still supports Windows 98 SE, although I must > admit that every time I accept patches, it crashes my system. OK, fair enough, I thought it was EOL quite some time ago. > Second, the ONLY reason I stay with Windows 98 SE is because > Ersatz-11 runs correctly for me ONLY under Windows 98 SE. > I use MACRO-11 99% of the time to write programs and I > MUST have 132 character lines when I use the editor under RT-11. > None of the other Window OSs that I tested would support > 132 character lines, although Ersatz-11 does mostly run under > those other OSs, just not quite as complete. Actually, I will > probably upgrade to a Pentium 4 by the end of this year, just > in time to obtain a motherboard that can handle a separate > AGP adapter with ATI firmware that supports 132 character > lines with Ersatz-11. The 750 MHz Pentium III is now just > 2 1/2 years old, so I would have preferred to use it for at least > 4 or 5 more years. I'm currently editing stuff in a 150-odd column window, using PuTTY on Windows 2000 into my NetBSD machine at home. Now, I will freely admit I know nothing at all about Windows, and I haven't played with Ersatz-11, but I'm sure there are other emulations of the PDP-11 that will let you do what you want. > As for Netscape, I have saved all my e-mails and news groups > posts. Shifting to IE would be almost a disaster. Did I even *mention* IE? The last version of IE I ever used was IE 3.odd which is far, far worse than Netscape 4.78. > And since one bank still allows Netscape 4.78, I would > presume that the other bank would not really have a problem > continuing to support Netscape 4.78 if they chose to do so. > But since it is highly probable that, as a large organization, the > bank is infected with the same mentality as Microsoft, the bank > just does not care. It is not as if they are being asked to support > a new interface, just to continue to support the old one which until > the end of July was the case! As I said before, Netscape 4.78 is a really, really bad version of Netscape. Why don't you upgrade to even a newer version? What's this aversion to software less than five years old? >> Without wishing to seem disrespectful or unpleasant, you are basically >> complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern >> motorway >> traffic. > > Actually, I would be quite happy to use a Morris Minor > if the spare parts were available. I don't drive on highway > often enough to matter! Heh. I do, so I drive a late-80s Citroen CX which keeps up with motorway traffic but is only a little more complicated than a Moggy Minor. I'll put my hands up to that... > I still find Netscape 4.78 more than competitive with IE on the > few times I need to use my wife's computer. > >> > Because I ALWAYS run Netscape with cookies turned OFF, >> > except when I am required to have cookies enabled to access the >> > 2 web pages that I normally use, I often encountered the error >> > page which listed Netscape 4.x as one of the required browsers. >> Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? >> So an advert banner site knows that the same computer visited it twice. >> Big wow. Do you stop answering the doorbell in case it's a door-to-door >> salesman? Well, you might, but it would break more things than it would >> fix. > >>From my point of view, except for the 2 bank sites I use > because I am helping my son, I refuse to use any other > sites where cookies are required. And more to the point, > I set Netscape to notify me when the doorbell is being > run even then. I just feel it is a good idea to know if the > doorbell is being rung and then to answer it myself rather > than allowing open door access, even to a web site that > is likely more reputable than most. For all other sites, > I just NEVER even listen when they ring the doorbell. > > Actually, can you explain what advantage cookies provide? > Is there something about cookies which they do which can't > be done without cookies????????????? Session tracking. It's really, really hard to provide session tracking without using cookies. Sure, you can get away with using forms with a hidden field, or using a big fugly md5sum in the URL, but for the most part, you just send a cookie. That's what they were invented for. In case you can't see why you'd want session tracking, ask yourself how else you'd accept a user logging into a website, visiting pages tied specifically to them, and logging out? Single-pixel gifs? That's even nastier than cookies! In any case, modern browsers like Mozilla Firefox allow you to specify which sites you want to allow cookies from and which sites to block cookies from. There is quite fine-grained control over this. I suggest you download it and have a look. Gordon. From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 17 09:56:50 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4122371D.14135.29282C21@localhost> References: <20040816234856.2B48B109AD00@swift.conman.org> <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817105626.024bdb78@192.168.0.1> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT >IN MY FACE? It takes less bandwidth and server space. :-) Ed From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 17 10:05:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817105626.024bdb78@192.168.0.1> References: <20040816234856.2B48B109AD00@swift.conman.org> <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <5.2.0.9.2.20040817105626.024bdb78@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <1092755123.23527.85.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 14:56, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT > >IN MY FACE? > > It takes less bandwidth and server space. > > :-) And leaves more screen space for big Flash animations... :-) From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 17 10:14:46 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. Message-ID: <200408171014.46494.pat@computer-refuge.org> (I sent this from the wrong email address last night...oops!) So, I was hoping to find some sort of manual (any kind) for my TU-81+ via google, but have failed. So, my TU-81+ doesn't want to power up. I've found the "hidden" power switch under the cover that I've flipped back and forth a couple of times, I've made sure the 110/220V jumper was set properly (110V), and tried different power cords, all to no avail. (I've bypassed the power controller in the rack and directly hooked the drive to an outlet.) The power supply "sounds" like it's getting some power when I plug it in, as I hear a small arc, presumably charging up some capacitors. However, the fan doesn't start up, and none of the front panel lights. Does anyone have any suggestions of where to go next? (Tony? :) I could just start pulling it apart and going through it, but I prefer to have some direction before I do that. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 10:23:14 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817105626.024bdb78@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: Um...NO...not at all.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:57 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >>> >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT >>> IN MY FACE? >>> >>> It takes less bandwidth and server space. >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Ed >>> From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 10:24:14 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <1092755123.23527.85.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: ....At least the last part is true.... [ Remember when it was illegal if you "Flashed" somebody.... ] >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:05 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 14:56, Ed Kelleher wrote: >>> > At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >>> > >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE >>> FONT IN MY FACE? >>> > >>> > It takes less bandwidth and server space. >>> > >>> > :-) >>> >>> And leaves more screen space for big Flash animations... :-) >>> >>> From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 17 10:20:12 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <41223E4C.10882.29443A62@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 10:38 meinte Jerome H. Fine: > >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Windows 98 is now six years old, and is really just a facelifted version > > of Windows 95 - very nearly 10 years old. Win 98 is no longer supported > > by Microsoft, so good luck patching for any vulnerabilities. You could > > try using Windows 2000 - pretty much anything better than a PII-350 will > > run it, if you've got enough memory (anything less than 256M is a waste of > > time). As far as the browser is concerned, I thoroughly recommend > > switching to Mozilla Firefox. Netscape 4.78 is possibly the most broken > > web browser known to exist. > > Jerome Fine replies: > Second, the ONLY reason I stay with Windows 98 SE is because > Ersatz-11 runs correctly for me ONLY under Windows 98 SE. Now that's an interesting reasoning .. even more, it makes the Win98 a perfect on topic item *G* like that. > As for Netscape, I have saved all my e-mails and news groups > posts. Shifting to IE would be almost a disaster. Serious, considere Mozilla. As for myself, I have been a die hard Netscape 4.78 user until about half a year ago. at that point I had to access some web sites which where just pure crap (design wise) but needed for my work. So I gave Mozilla a try (I didn't want to switch for IE). And beside some minor details (The German translation is made by some Austrian jokesters who put DE-AT - whatever that is - as default language) I'm quite pleased by now. Especialy the tabbed browsing got me. But most important it is close enough to Netscape that the transition was painless. > > Without wishing to seem disrespectful or unpleasant, you are basically > > complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern motorway > > traffic. > Actually, I would be quite happy to use a Morris Minor > if the spare parts were available. I don't drive on highway > often enough to matter! Nobody is required to always drive high speed. Not even on the autobahn. And a Morris Minor or a VW Beetle or a 2CV is still a great car for every day. > > > Because I ALWAYS run Netscape with cookies turned OFF, > > > except when I am required to have cookies enabled to access the > > > 2 web pages that I normally use, I often encountered the error > > > page which listed Netscape 4.x as one of the required browsers. > > Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? > > So an advert banner site knows that the same computer visited it twice. > > Big wow. Do you stop answering the doorbell in case it's a door-to-door > > salesman? Well, you might, but it would break more things than it would > > fix. > From my point of view, except for the 2 bank sites I use > because I am helping my son, I refuse to use any other > sites where cookies are required. And more to the point, > I set Netscape to notify me when the doorbell is being > run even then. I just feel it is a good idea to know if the > doorbell is being rung and then to answer it myself rather > than allowing open door access, even to a web site that > is likely more reputable than most. For all other sites, > I just NEVER even listen when they ring the doorbell. Now, here Mozilla is even better, it adds a finger print sensor to your doorbell by giving you ways to manage them and decide which site may set cookies on a site, and even page specific setting. > Actually, can you explain what advantage cookies provide? > Is there something about cookies which they do which can't > be done without cookies????????????? It realy simplifies some site designs. Also keep in mind, it needed Netscape to invent them :) Back when they started to explore the ways of 'Webshops'. I think by now, a switch from NS to Mozilla should be possible. with your 750 PII and 98SE, you're perfectly within the specs. http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/sysreq.html Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 17 10:19:47 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171305.GAA12696@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This isn't true, actually -- Microsoft did try to kill Win 98, but they > received so many complaints from home and corporate users (Win98 is still > in use on a large segment of machines) that they still offer support > through windowsupdate for critical-level security patches (the most recent > PNG vulnerability, as well as the ADODB exploit, for example, were all > patched for 98 and ME as well). > > While Microsoft will no longer sell you 98, they have extended the period > of time for which they will support it. I don't recall the official kill > off date, but it's still off in the future. There is a big difference between "supporting" an OS, and issuing patches for critical flaws. Microsoft no longer supports W98 as a product, meaning, the entire development process was stopped, a long time ago. They d, however, provide patches for critical problems, if and when they see fit, meaning, if the extra time needed to do it for W98 isn't too much. Officially, it is no longer supported, other than this "best effort" offer. --f From lists at microvax.org Tue Aug 17 10:27:25 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access References: Message-ID: <004001c4846e$b4fff9c0$0a00a8c0@coffee> >> WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT >> IN MY FACE? >> >> It takes less bandwidth and server space. >> >> :-) > > Um...NO...not at all.... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humour alex/melt p.s. The quote feature on your mailer's broken. From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Tue Aug 17 10:26:40 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access Message-ID: <200408171626.41222.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> It's worth pointing out that Jerome is talking about 132 character access in text-mode, not within the GUI. I used to have a Tseng Labs card that supported all sorts of great text mode resolutions. Just for your information Jerome, if you were to go down the Linux route text mode console is fully supported in 132 character mode with a variety of line options. You could also plug in a VT terminal such as a VT520 and have a 'real' terminal to program from. Regards, Mark. (who has shunned using a laptop in the louge at home for a VT520 - it focusses the mind on what is really important and stops endless 'browsing'. I'm not addicted to the internet, honest!) -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 17 10:27:46 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41223E4C.10882.29443A62@localhost> References: <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817112502.032839e8@192.168.0.1> At 11:20 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >I gave Mozilla a try (I didn't want to switch for IE). >And beside some minor details (The German translation is >made by some Austrian jokesters who put DE-AT - whatever >that is - as default language) I'm quite pleased by now. >Especialy the tabbed browsing got me. But most important >it is close enough to Netscape that the transition was >painless. Big plus of Mozilla for me over IE is that it prints webpages intelligently. Ed From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Aug 17 10:28:39 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: <200408171014.46494.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200408171014.46494.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > (I sent this from the wrong email address last night...oops!) > > > So, my TU-81+ doesn't want to power up. I've found the "hidden" power > switch under the cover that I've flipped back and forth a couple of > times, I've made sure the 110/220V jumper was set properly (110V), and > tried different power cords, all to no avail. (I've bypassed the power > controller in the rack and directly hooked the drive to an outlet.) This is all logical and good! > > The power supply "sounds" like it's getting some power when I plug it > in, as I hear a small arc, presumably charging up some capacitors. > However, the fan doesn't start up, and none of the front panel lights. This is Very Bad! One should not hear 'a small arc' !! charging capacitors does not make a noise... ;{ I would think the next step would be to aquire the engineering printsets and some expert assistance and remove, trouble-shoot, repair, and replace the Power Supply - I thinks it's woofed it's cookies on ya... Cheers John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 10:39:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:16 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <004001c4846e$b4fff9c0$0a00a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: Lets just leave my bodily fluids out of this discussion What is wrong with my quotes? I have always liked "If it's not one thing, it's another......" >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of meltie >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:27 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> >> WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE >>> FONT IN MY FACE? >>> >> >>> >> It takes less bandwidth and server space. >>> >> >>> >> :-) >>> > >>> > Um...NO...not at all.... >>> >>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humour >>> >>> >>> alex/melt >>> >>> p.s. The quote feature on your mailer's broken. >>> From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 17 10:35:10 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817105626.024bdb78@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817113055.03277090@192.168.0.1> At 11:23 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access > >>> > >>> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > >>> >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT > >>> IN MY FACE? > >>> > >>> It takes less bandwidth and server space. > >>> >Um...NO...not at all.... Well certainly then because of reduced X radiation from the CRT. The smaller fonts disturb less phosphor. You'd probably get increased life from your CRT also in that case. Ed From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 17 10:15:10 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4122371D.14135.29282C21@localhost> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <4122371D.14135.29282C21@localhost> Message-ID: <20040817171510.3569bfa3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:49:33 +0200 "Hans Franke" wrote: > WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT > IN MY FACE? Because Winblows likes to use a 50 dpi screen? (Easy font scaling is one feature that I don't wane miss in Mozilla / Firebird beside tabed browsing and real coockie management.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 17 10:32:20 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20040817173220.7539ce04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:25 -0400 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > Second, the ONLY reason I stay with Windows 98 SE is because > Ersatz-11 runs correctly for me ONLY under Windows 98 SE. [...] Sounds odd. Well. This is M$. ;-) > As for Netscape, I have saved all my e-mails and news groups > posts. Shifting to IE would be almost a disaster. You should be able to export the mails to a Unix style mbox file and import it with an other Mail User Agent. IIRC Netscape uses mbox as its "internal" file format to store all mails. > From my point of view, except for the 2 bank sites I use > because I am helping my son, I refuse to use any other > sites where cookies are required. Browseres like Mozilla and Firebird have a cookie management system. You can enable cookies, but you will be asked to accept a cookie when a web site wants to set one. Then you can allow or disallow cookis for that site permanently. A feature that I _really_ missed in Netscape 4.x. \begin{daemons advocate} Is there a *ix version of Ersatz-11 available? ;-) \end{daemons advocate} -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 17 10:50:18 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> <20040817173220.7539ce04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <16674.10554.458000.811973@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz writes: Jochen> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:25 -0400 "Jerome H. Fine" Jochen> wrote: >> Second, the ONLY reason I stay with Windows 98 SE is because >> Ersatz-11 runs correctly for me ONLY under Windows 98 SE. Jochen> [...] Sounds odd. Well. This is M$. ;-) So run it under Linux, that's a far better choice. >> As for Netscape, I have saved all my e-mails and news groups >> posts. Shifting to IE would be almost a disaster. Jochen> You should be able to export the mails to a Unix style mbox Jochen> file and import it with an other Mail User Agent. IIRC Jochen> Netscape uses mbox as its "internal" file format to store all Jochen> mails. I use vm under XEmacs, both on Windows and Linux. Works nicely. Jochen> \begin{daemons advocate} Is there a *ix version of Ersatz-11 Jochen> available? ;-) \end{daemons advocate} -- Yes, it's been around for years, and it works very well indeed. paul From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 12:06:39 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817113055.03277090@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: Well...It could be, but is the person uses a dark font on a light background [IMHO as it should be], then the increased area of backgound actually increases radiation! >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:35 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> At 11:23 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >>> > >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access >>> > >>> >>> > >>> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >>> > >>> >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT >>> > >>> IN MY FACE? >>> > >>> >>> > >>> It takes less bandwidth and server space. >>> > >>> >>> >Um...NO...not at all.... >>> >>> Well certainly then because of reduced X radiation from the CRT. >>> The smaller fonts disturb less phosphor. >>> You'd probably get increased life from your CRT also in that case. >>> >>> Ed >>> From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 17 12:10:50 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817113055.03277090@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 13:06 meinte David V. Corbin: > >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher > >>> At 11:23 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > >>> > >>> >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT > >>> > >>> IN MY FACE? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It takes less bandwidth and server space. > >>> > >>> > >>> >Um...NO...not at all.... > >>> Well certainly then because of reduced X radiation from the CRT. > >>> The smaller fonts disturb less phosphor. > >>> You'd probably get increased life from your CRT also in that case. > Well...It could be, but is the person uses a dark font on a light background > [IMHO as it should be], then the increased area of backgound actually > increases radiation! Are you shure? I mean, if a light backgroung emmits more radiation, then we should switch for black paper as sonn as possible. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 12:26:51 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> Message-ID: For PAPER, the importance is reflection, rather than emmision...... But you are assuming that radiation is bad.....How else would I get this good amber tan [with a slightly green tint]???/ >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 1:11 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: RE: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> Am 17 Aug 2004 13:06 meinte David V. Corbin: >>> > >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> Ed Kelleher At >>> > >>> 11:23 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> > >>> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY >>> UNREADABLE FONT >>> > >>> > >>> IN MY FACE? >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> > >>> It takes less bandwidth and server space. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >Um...NO...not at all.... >>> >>> > >>> Well certainly then because of reduced X radiation >>> from the CRT. >>> > >>> The smaller fonts disturb less phosphor. >>> > >>> You'd probably get increased life from your CRT also >>> in that case. >>> >>> > Well...It could be, but is the person uses a dark font on a light >>> > background [IMHO as it should be], then the increased area of >>> > backgound actually increases radiation! >>> >>> Are you shure? I mean, if a light backgroung emmits more >>> radiation, then we should switch for black paper as sonn as >>> possible. >>> >>> Gruss >>> H. >>> -- >>> VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen >>> http://www.vcfe.org/ >>> From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 17 12:13:34 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817113055.03277090@192.168.0.1> <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> Message-ID: <200408171720.NAA00375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Well...It could be, but is the person uses a dark font on a light >> background [IMHO as it should be], then the increased area of >> backgound actually increases radiation! > Are you shure? I mean, if a light backgroung emmits more radiation, > then we should switch for black paper as sonn as possible. This is the difference between a self-luminant display, such as a CRT, and a reflective display, such as paper. (It's also why I loathe black-on-white for computer displays - I find it fine for reflective technologies, such as ink on paper, but horrid for self-luminant technologies, such as all computer displays I've seen.) And, technically, yes, black-on-white throws more radiation at you than white-on-black does, even when it's paper. It's just that the radiation the discussion was about is X-rays, and with paper, the radiation in question is reflected ambient light - if you're in a situation where the ambient X-ray level is high enough to be an issue, you've got worse worries than whether printing on paper is W-on-B or B-on-W. :-) (Also, X-rays don't reflect from paper very well, regardless of the colour of the paper.) (If displays throwing X-ray radiation is really a concern for you, the simple fix is to use an LCD display instead.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 12:38:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171720.NAA00375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: >>> (It's also why I loathe black-on-white for computer >>> displays - I find it fine for reflective technologies, such >>> as ink on paper, but horrid for self-luminant technologies, >>> such as all computer displays I've seen.) With respect to CRT (and all other self luminant displays) I find that the contrast issue really depends on the pixel size. When I am running 2048x1536 here. A black backround with white text is horrid [assuming a 1-3 pixel stroke width for text] Black on white is great. If I am running VERY low densities [such as the character generator on a 80x24 text screen] then the reverse is true [could never stand working on a VT-100 in blacc-on-white]. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 17 12:37:02 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171720.NAA00375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> Message-ID: <41225E5E.28281.29C18092@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 13:13 meinte der Mouse: > >> Well...It could be, but is the person uses a dark font on a light > >> background [IMHO as it should be], then the increased area of > >> backgound actually increases radiation! > > Are you shure? I mean, if a light backgroung emmits more radiation, > > then we should switch for black paper as sonn as possible. > This is the difference between a self-luminant display, such as a CRT, > and a reflective display, such as paper. (It's also why I loathe > black-on-white for computer displays - I find it fine for reflective > technologies, such as ink on paper, but horrid for self-luminant > technologies, such as all computer displays I've seen.) > And, technically, yes, black-on-white throws more radiation at you than > white-on-black does, even when it's paper. It's just that the > radiation the discussion was about is X-rays, and with paper, the > radiation in question is reflected ambient light - if you're in a > situation where the ambient X-ray level is high enough to be an issue, > you've got worse worries than whether printing on paper is W-on-B or > B-on-W. :-) (Also, X-rays don't reflect from paper very well, > regardless of the colour of the paper.) > (If displays throwing X-ray radiation is really a concern for you, the > simple fix is to use an LCD display instead.) And the price goes to ...... MOUSE! *ROTFL* -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 17 12:33:24 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817133252.032a1230@192.168.0.1> At 01:26 PM 8/17/2004, you wrote: >But you are assuming that radiation is bad.....How else would I get this >good amber tan [with a slightly green tint]???/ Bypass your microwave door safety switches? From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 17 12:55:26 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: References: <200408171014.46494.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200408171255.26877.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 10:28, John Lawson wrote: > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > (I sent this from the wrong email address last night...oops!) > > > > > > So, my TU-81+ doesn't want to power up. I've found the "hidden" > > power switch under the cover that I've flipped back and forth a > > couple of times, I've made sure the 110/220V jumper was set > > properly (110V), and tried different power cords, all to no avail. > > (I've bypassed the power controller in the rack and directly hooked > > the drive to an outlet.) > > This is all logical and good! > > > The power supply "sounds" like it's getting some power when I plug > > it in, as I hear a small arc, presumably charging up some > > capacitors. However, the fan doesn't start up, and none of the > > front panel lights. > > This is Very Bad! One should not hear 'a small arc' !! charging > capacitors does not make a noise... ;{ I should restate that... there is a "small arc" sound coming from the plug when it mates with the outlet, which is typical of switching power supplies being plugged in. small==tiny. > I would think the next step would be to aquire the engineering > printsets and some expert assistance and remove, trouble-shoot, > repair, and replace the Power Supply - I thinks it's woofed it's > cookies on ya... Yeah, well, if I could find the print sets, I wouldn't have posted the question so quickly. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 17 13:00:52 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: <200408171014.46494.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <001101c48484$22b19770$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > So, I was hoping to find some sort of manual (any kind) for my TU-81+ > via google, but have failed. I have the following: EK-TUA81-TM-002 TU81/TA81 Technical Manual EK-TUA81-UG-004 TU81/TA81 and TU81 PLUS Subsystem User's Guide which both show up on http://vt100.net/manx, but without any links. If you think they'll be useful, I'll put them on an FTP site for you (and Paul I guess :-)). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Aug 17 13:04:57 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. Message-ID: <0408171804.AA02080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Antonio Carlini wrote: > I have the following: > EK-TUA81-TM-002 TU81/TA81 Technical Manual > EK-TUA81-UG-004 TU81/TA81 and TU81 PLUS Subsystem User's Guide > which both show up on http://vt100.net/manx, but > without any links. > > If you think they'll be useful, I'll put them on > an FTP site for you (and Paul I guess :-)). When I finally get to play with my TU81E, I'm sure I will find them useful! My drive is known good, but still having manuals is very valuable just in case. Please put them up for all of us! MS From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 17 13:20:51 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: <0408171804.AA02080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408171804.AA02080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200408171320.51839.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 13:04, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I have the following: > > EK-TUA81-TM-002 TU81/TA81 Technical Manual > > EK-TUA81-UG-004 TU81/TA81 and TU81 PLUS Subsystem User's Guide > > which both show up on http://vt100.net/manx, but > > without any links. > > > > If you think they'll be useful, I'll put them on > > an FTP site for you (and Paul I guess :-)). > > When I finally get to play with my TU81E, I'm sure I will find them > useful! My drive is known good, but still having manuals is very > valuable just in case. Please put them up for all of us! I offered to host them for him, if he doesn't want to deal with the bandwidth, etc. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 17 13:43:57 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: <200408171320.51839.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <001301c4848a$279cfe90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I offered to host them for him, if he doesn't want to deal with the > bandwidth, etc. :) They'll be headed off to Patrick soon (and then he'll put them up I guess). These (and the rest of the manuals on the CDs they came from) will be headed off to Manx as soon as I find out exactly how many of these manuals Paul is missing. So it will all be available soon for everyone. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 17 14:01:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > For PAPER, the importance is reflection, rather than emmision...... > > But you are assuming that radiation is bad.....How else would I get this > good amber tan [with a slightly green tint]???/ I think, just think, not sure, but I think, just possibly, perhaps, maybe, no guarantees, Hans was being facetious. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 17 13:43:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (It's also why I loathe black-on-white for computer displays - I >> find it fine for reflective technologies, such as ink on paper, but >> horrid for self-luminant technologies, such as all computer displays >> I've seen.) > With respect to CRT (and all other self luminant displays) I find > that the contrast issue really depends on the pixel size. When I am > running 2048x1536 here. A black backround with white text is horrid > [assuming a 1-3 pixel stroke width for text] Black on white is great. I've never seen a CRT running 2048x1536. But I've seen 1600x1280, and based on that, I suspect that your problem is that you're pushing the monitor beyond what it can actually do - and under those circumstances, thin vertical strokes tend to get lost, which does damage W-on-B worse than it does B-on-W. I had a monochrome monitor (= no shadow mask, and therefore dot pitch limited only by intensity control electronics bandwidth) that was great at 1600x1280, but unfortunately it dimmed into unusability. I've yet to see a colour screen that was any good at that sort of resolution - I'm told they exist but are expensive. (I'd be willing to believe that a good 2048x1536 screen could exist, but I'd expect it to be _very_ expen$ive....) A single-pixel vertical line and a single-pixel horizontal line should appear about equal brightness, white-on-black. If one appears visibly dimmer than the other, then something is being pushed beyond what it can really do, and you will have legibility problems - but the real problem is pushing the hardware; using white-on-black just makes it somewhat more visible. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 17 14:27:21 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access References: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16674.23577.415046.366293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: der> I've never seen a CRT running 2048x1536. But I've seen der> 1600x1280, and based on that, I suspect that your problem is der> that you're pushing the monitor beyond what it can actually do - der> and under those circumstances, thin vertical strokes tend to get der> lost, which does damage W-on-B worse than it does B-on-W. I find a good rule of thumb is to set a CRT to one step less than the max rated non-interlaced resolution. (Interlaced resolution ratings are completely uninteresting.) And I set the refresh rate to the lowest supported value >= 70 Hz. If you use VGA extension cord, this becomes a whole lot more important, but even without those, it seems like a good idea. On the other hand, for high resolution displays, LCD panels are a really good answer. 2000 by 1500 is available today (from Apple, at least), and you don't get any blurring if you use a digital interface. Hm... I saw a 2k by 2k monochrome display about 20 years ago -- a plasma panel (PLATO style orange dots) 4x the usual size. paul From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 14:33:59 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: 2048x1536 (with is 4 1024x768 areas on the same glass) is what I use on some of my 21"/22" monitors. Even the lower cost ones do 1920x1440 without a problem... Check these links for the specs.... My "standard development monitor: http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/crtmonitors/graphicseries/ g220fb/ [about $500] Good Dual Monitor Controller Card... http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/aiw9800pro/specs.html [About $300] Or For 3-D work [single monitor only] http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx800/specs.html [About $500] 1600x1200 [not 1280 which you may be confusing with 1280x1204] is what I run on my 17" screens. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 2:44 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: RE: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> >> (It's also why I loathe black-on-white for computer >>> displays - I find >>> >> it fine for reflective technologies, such as ink on >>> paper, but horrid >>> >> for self-luminant technologies, such as all computer >>> displays I've >>> >> seen.) >>> > With respect to CRT (and all other self luminant >>> displays) I find that >>> > the contrast issue really depends on the pixel size. When I am >>> > running 2048x1536 here. A black backround with white >>> text is horrid >>> > [assuming a 1-3 pixel stroke width for text] Black on >>> white is great. >>> >>> I've never seen a CRT running 2048x1536. But I've seen >>> 1600x1280, and based on that, I suspect that your problem >>> is that you're pushing the monitor beyond what it can >>> actually do - and under those circumstances, thin vertical >>> strokes tend to get lost, which does damage W-on-B worse >>> than it does B-on-W. >>> >>> I had a monochrome monitor (= no shadow mask, and therefore >>> dot pitch limited only by intensity control electronics >>> bandwidth) that was great at 1600x1280, but unfortunately >>> it dimmed into unusability. I've yet to see a colour >>> screen that was any good at that sort of resolution - I'm >>> told they exist but are expensive. (I'd be willing to >>> believe that a good 2048x1536 screen could exist, but I'd >>> expect it to be _very_ >>> expen$ive....) >>> >>> A single-pixel vertical line and a single-pixel horizontal >>> line should appear about equal brightness, white-on-black. >>> If one appears visibly dimmer than the other, then >>> something is being pushed beyond what it can really do, and >>> you will have legibility problems - but the real problem is >>> pushing the hardware; using white-on-black just makes it >>> somewhat more visible. >>> >>> /~\ The ASCII der Mouse >>> \ / Ribbon Campaign >>> X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Aug 17 14:39:24 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <200408131849.LAA03195@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <005d01c48491$f5a0d8a0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) > >From: "ben franchuk" > > > >Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > >> Reminds me of the old Radio Constructor designs where the designer made one > >> transistor do both rf and af amplification. > >> Can't remember his name - or what he called his designs. > >> I'm sure he was knighted or something like that .... anybody ? > >> - Sir Alec Douglas Hall ? was it ? > >> Sounds too much like Alec Douglas Hume ! > > > >I have no idea who invented it since it was used every where, since the > >humble > >vacume tube ( valve) was invented. You can still buy or build them today. > > > >http://www.vcomp.co.uk/one_tube_1935/one_tube_1935.htm > >http://schmarder.com/radios/tube/index.htm > >Ben. > > > > > > Hi > The circuit is called a reflex circuit. The second web page > above shows a tube reflex circuit. > Dwight Yes, thanks - but the author had a special name for it - that's what I can't remember. Geoff. > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 17 14:40:21 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408171440.21836.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 14:33, David V. Corbin wrote: > 2048x1536 (with is 4 1024x768 areas on the same glass) is what I use > on some of my 21"/22" monitors. Ick. I don't do anything higher than about 1280x1024 on a 20" monitor, and I usually am sitting no more than 16" back from it. At 1600x1200, even on "good" monitors, I can't see things anymore. My rule of thumb is you should be able to see the individual dots in a grid of 1x1 pixel dots (but they shouldn't be too big). > 1600x1200 [not 1280 which you may be confusing with 1280x1204] is > what I run on my 17" screens. You must have 20-10 vision or something, because no human should be able to see 1x1 pixel dots on something with that high of DPI. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 15:01:16 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171440.21836.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: If I use "blah" Notepad to open a text file at the default font size of 10pt I see 106 lines of text. This is slightly less than one might calculate because you need to subtract the taskbard,frames and other things... This is being displayed in a physical vertical area of just over 10.5 inches, to the text is being displayed nearly ACTUAL SIZE. Holding up a piece of printed paper I get about 4 lines of drift over the vertical distance. Considering that most printed material [eg. Paperback books and newspapers] will use a smaller font...I don't see why ther is any surprise about working at this resolution..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:40 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: RE: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 14:33, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > 2048x1536 (with is 4 1024x768 areas on the same glass) is >>> what I use >>> > on some of my 21"/22" monitors. >>> >>> Ick. I don't do anything higher than about 1280x1024 on a >>> 20" monitor, and I usually am sitting no more than 16" back >>> from it. At 1600x1200, even on "good" monitors, I can't >>> see things anymore. My rule of thumb is you should be able >>> to see the individual dots in a grid of 1x1 pixel dots (but >>> they shouldn't be too big). >>> >>> > 1600x1200 [not 1280 which you may be confusing with >>> 1280x1204] is what >>> > I run on my 17" screens. >>> >>> You must have 20-10 vision or something, because no human >>> should be able to see 1x1 pixel dots on something with that >>> high of DPI. >>> >>> Pat >>> -- >>> Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- >>> http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >>> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 15:03:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: FW: RE: Help with question about web page access Message-ID: Aslo.... I just measured my average distance to the screen 26-28 inches. Readability begins to suffer at about 7pt text. David -----Original Message----- From: David V. Corbin [mailto:dvcorbin@optonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: RE: Help with question about web page access If I use "blah" Notepad to open a text file at the default font size of 10pt I see 106 lines of text. This is slightly less than one might calculate because you need to subtract the taskbard,frames and other things... This is being displayed in a physical vertical area of just over 10.5 inches, to the text is being displayed nearly ACTUAL SIZE. Holding up a piece of printed paper I get about 4 lines of drift over the vertical distance. Considering that most printed material [eg. Paperback books and newspapers] will use a smaller font...I don't see why ther is any surprise about working at this resolution..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:40 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: RE: Help with question about web page access >>> >>> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 14:33, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > 2048x1536 (with is 4 1024x768 areas on the same glass) is >>> what I use >>> > on some of my 21"/22" monitors. >>> >>> Ick. I don't do anything higher than about 1280x1024 on a 20" >>> monitor, and I usually am sitting no more than 16" back from it. At >>> 1600x1200, even on "good" monitors, I can't see things anymore. My >>> rule of thumb is you should be able to see the individual dots in a >>> grid of 1x1 pixel dots (but they shouldn't be too big). >>> >>> > 1600x1200 [not 1280 which you may be confusing with >>> 1280x1204] is what >>> > I run on my 17" screens. >>> >>> You must have 20-10 vision or something, because no human should be >>> able to see 1x1 pixel dots on something with that high of DPI. >>> >>> Pat >>> -- >>> Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- >>> http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >>> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Aug 17 14:47:23 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) References: <200408131849.LAA03195@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <014601c48496$6baa4be0$0200a8c0@geoff> Just remembered - it was the "spontaflex" ,- it was Sir Douglas Hall and there is a web page devoted to his circuits. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) > >From: "ben franchuk" > > > >Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > >> Reminds me of the old Radio Constructor designs where the designer made one > >> transistor do both rf and af amplification. > >> Can't remember his name - or what he called his designs. > >> I'm sure he was knighted or something like that .... anybody ? > >> - Sir Alec Douglas Hall ? was it ? > >> Sounds too much like Alec Douglas Hume ! > > > >I have no idea who invented it since it was used every where, since the > >humble > >vacume tube ( valve) was invented. You can still buy or build them today. > > > >http://www.vcomp.co.uk/one_tube_1935/one_tube_1935.htm > >http://schmarder.com/radios/tube/index.htm > >Ben. > > > > > > Hi > The circuit is called a reflex circuit. The second web page > above shows a tube reflex circuit. > Dwight > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 17 15:15:36 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040817221536.48046d18.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:43:37 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > (I'd be willing to believe that a good 2048x1536 screen could exist, > but I'd expect it to be _very_ expen$ive....) http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Display, 2560 x 1600 pixels (100 dpi) $3299. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 17 15:22:11 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access References: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040817221536.48046d18.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <00d001c48497$e0ba7260$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:15 PM Subject: Re: RE: Help with question about web page access > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:43:37 -0400 (EDT) > der Mouse wrote: > > > (I'd be willing to believe that a good 2048x1536 screen could exist, > > but I'd expect it to be _very_ expen$ive....) > http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html > 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Display, 2560 x 1600 pixels (100 dpi) > $3299. > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > Special video card to run that resolution not included! From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 15:39:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <00d001c48497$e0ba7260$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: Even when using classic character based environments, these high screen resolutions can come in handy.... 12 or more glass teletypes [80x24] on a single screen. Have fun with your entire DECNET [or other....] environment.... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 17 15:27:14 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access References: <200408171440.21836.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <41226A22.2030405@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > You must have 20-10 vision or something, because no human should be able > to see 1x1 pixel dots on something with that high of DPI. Now you know why Vulcan's are good with computers. They are blind as a bat but can hear 1x1 pixels. :) > Pat From dan at ekoan.com Tue Aug 17 15:30:00 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Fwd: Commodore Computers Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040817162410.0506cce0@enigma> Contact me off-list for this gentleman's e-mail address if you have an interest in these Commodore computers and software. He's located in St. Joseph, Michigan (United States), which is in the southwest part of the state. >We have Commodore Computer 64 & 128 systems and software. These were used >in my wife's Special Education class room. We would like to find a new >home(s) for this equipment and their educational software. Cheers, Dan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 17 15:29:14 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... References: Message-ID: <41226A9A.4070005@jetnet.ab.ca> David V. Corbin wrote: > Even when using classic character based environments, these high screen > resolutions can come in handy.... 12 or more glass teletypes [80x24] on a > single screen. Have fun with your entire DECNET [or other....] > environment.... It don't work that way. More screen you have, more dancing icons,borders and menues pop up. Ben. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 17 15:47:56 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <41226A9A.4070005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: That was an empirical measurement...I opened multiple windows, set them to borderless and then arranged them on my primary display as three across by four down... And I didn't even use the secondary monitor... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben franchuk >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:29 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Monitor Resolutions... >>> >>> David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > Even when using classic character based environments, these high >>> > screen resolutions can come in handy.... 12 or more glass >>> teletypes >>> > [80x24] on a single screen. Have fun with your entire DECNET [or >>> > other....] environment.... >>> >>> It don't work that way. More screen you have, more dancing >>> icons,borders and menues pop up. >>> Ben. >>> >>> From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 17 15:47:28 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <00d001c48497$e0ba7260$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <41228B00.21649.2A6FDACA@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 16:22 meinte Teo Zenios: > > der Mouse wrote: > > > (I'd be willing to believe that a good 2048x1536 screen could exist, > > > but I'd expect it to be _very_ expen$ive....) > > http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html > > 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Display, 2560 x 1600 pixels (100 dpi) > > $3299. > Special video card to run that resolution not included! Which would be just an of the shelf GeForce (at 60 Hz - 2048x1536 would be possible even at 85 or 90 Hz) ... just, not with a DVI interface, since there the pixel clock is limitated to something like 1600x 1200 or so. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:57:41 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <41227145.1010908@gifford.co.uk> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Actually, I would be quite happy to use a Morris Minor > if the spare parts were available. I don't drive on highway > often enough to matter! Might be a long trip to collect those parts, but: http://www.morrisminor.org.uk/ I went on a trip to the Morris Minor Owners' Club rally in a vehicle restored by this company. It was a recent one, though, built in 1969. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:05:34 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <005d01c48491$f5a0d8a0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <200408131849.LAA03195@clulw009.amd.com> <005d01c48491$f5a0d8a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <4122731E.4090305@gifford.co.uk> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Yes, thanks - but the author had a special name for it - that's what I can't > remember. Was it "regenerative"? Or is that a different type of circuit altogether? See, for example: http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/receivers/regen-radio-receiver.htm -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 17 16:06:57 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) Message-ID: <200408172106.OAA02917@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Geoffrey Thomas" > >Just remembered - it was the "spontaflex" ,- it was Sir Douglas Hall and >there is a web page devoted to his circuits. >Geoff. > Hi A quick search shows that these are at: http://freespace.virgin.net/spontaflex.reflex/ From looking at some of the text, these are a combination of a reflex with some regenerative feedback to increase the Q of the tuning circuits. I suppose one could write programs to sing through such a receiver on their clasic computer. Later Dwight From aek at spies.com Tue Aug 17 16:26:21 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. Message-ID: <20040817212621.805F73C74@spies.com> The TU81 diag pathfinder and tech manuals are up now on www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magtape/tu78 The drive itself is an OEMed CDC Keystone, there are some docs for it under cdc/magtape. From aek at spies.com Tue Aug 17 16:27:10 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: corrected TU81 url Message-ID: <20040817212710.4E7353C74@spies.com> www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magtape/tu81 From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 17 16:30:52 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171305.GAA12696@floodgap.com> References: <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <200408171305.GAA12696@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20040817213052.GA18499@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 06:05:45AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This isn't true, actually -- Microsoft did try to kill Win 98, but they > received so many complaints from home and corporate users (Win98 is still > in use on a large segment of machines) I think more important than the home market was the developing nation market. You might be able to convince a home user to get a new machine after so many years, but in non-industrialized nations, the hardware they have is the hardware they have. By killing support for Win98 (and by consequence machines that can't run W2K or XP), they were going to be pushing a lot of people in other countries towards some other OS like Linux. Any classic machine that will run W98 should have little problem running a current or semi-current version of Linux. Trying to run a GUI and a browser in 64MB is doable (but 256MB is more comfortable ;-), and there are plenty of 486s, let alone early Pentia, that can take 64MB. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Aug-2004 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.5 F (-67.5 C) Windchill -135.8 F (-93.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.3 kts Grid 079 Barometer 662.9 mb (11278. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 17 16:43:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) Message-ID: <200408172143.OAA02939@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Reading the article by Sir Douglas Hall, he mentions making an adjustment to keep the positive feedback below the point of oscillation. This sure sounds like regenerative to me. Regenerative feedback was used quite often to increase the effective Q of circuits to increase selectivity. The article of May 1976 seems to indicate that this is how this circuit works. This makes sense. There are many, many ways to introduce regenerative feedback. One of the early ones was to place a variable coil in the plate circuit that was not coupled to the tuned input. The circuit worked by the parasitic capacitance of the triodes grid to plate. This can be done with a transistor as well. I remember when I was a kid, I had one of those 2 transistor reflex receivers made by GE ( wish I still had it ). I modified it to be regenerative and was able to greatly extend both range and selectivity. At night, I pulled in stations across the US. Dwight >From: "John Honniball" > >Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> Yes, thanks - but the author had a special name for it - that's what I can't >> remember. > >Was it "regenerative"? Or is that a different type of circuit >altogether? See, for example: > > http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/receivers/regen-radio-receiver.htm > >-- >John Honniball >coredump@gifford.co.uk > From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 17 16:43:11 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040817173220.7539ce04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > \begin{daemons advocate} > Is there a *ix version of Ersatz-11 available? ;-) > \end{daemons advocate} Yes, there's one for Linsux, but, quite like the OS, it sux. --f From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:34:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <4121993A.4080605@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Aug 17, 4 00:35:54 am Message-ID: > > Nico de Jong wrote: > > > From: "Tony Duell" > > > >>It is, of course, possible to make a processor where the microcode can be > >>changed by the user. Many early graphics workstations (the PERQ, many of > >>the Xerox machines, etc) had microcode that was loaded from disk when the > >>machine booted. WCS (Writeable Control Store) options were available for > >>a few models of PDP11 to allow the user to write microcode. > > Actually, intel and AMD x86 chips all have a small WCS for patching bugs I thought that came in with the Pentium (or maybe the 486) -- I would be suprised if the 8086 had any WCS. > that are discovered after the chips are out in the field. The BIOS > loads these patch words on boot up. And the rotten sods won't tell you how to ahck the microcode yourself, which ruins the fun ;-). At least with the PERQ you were _expected_ to write your own miocrocode... To change the machine, I understand that my VAX11/730 loads the CPU microcode from the TU58 tape at power-on (certainly there's what looks to be the WCS RAMs on one of the CPU boards, and I can't find any microcode PROMs). Does anyone know how 'general purpose' the 11/730 is -- can it be changed into some totally different processor by loading the right microcode? What I means is this. On the PERQ, all the instruction decoding is done in the mcirocode, so that you can, in principle, emulate just about any processor by loading the right microcode (There is rumoured to have been a PDP11-compatible microcode for the PERQ, but I've never seen it). Conversely, on the PDP11/45 (another machine I've been inside), some of the instruction decoding is done in hardware -- for example the 2 3-bit fields in a PDP11 machine instrucion which select source and destination registers are connected to the address lines of the RAM chips that hold said registers with only a mimimal amount of logic between (and similarly for the ALU control bits). What this means is that just about any register-to-register ALU operation goes through the same micro-instructions with the hardware selecting which registers are used, and which operation is performed. So if I pulled the PROMs from my 11/45 and replaced them with RAM (OK< and did some other mods), I couldn't really turn it into a different processor. Now, which class does the 11/730 fall into? Is it possible to, say, write microcde for the 11/730 to turn it into a PDP8, or a Nova, or something? -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:48:54 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <16674.23577.415046.366293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200408171907.PAA00793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <16674.23577.415046.366293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1092779333.23527.302.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 19:27, Paul Koning wrote: > On the other hand, for high resolution displays, LCD panels are a > really good answer. 2000 by 1500 is available today (from Apple, at > least), and you don't get any blurring if you use a digital > interface. Are they prone to dead pixels? (by 'they' I mean current generation of LCD panels, not Apple ones specifically) That'd really annoy me, much more so that using a CRT monitor that was getting a little tired would. Plus, of course, good spec 21" CRT monitors can be had for next to nothing these days (or nothing, in the case of mine that only works when pointing roughly north :) whilst LCD panels are still expensive. cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 17 17:10:44 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access References: <20040817173220.7539ce04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <16674.33380.821432.141376@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen writes: Fred> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> \begin{daemons advocate} Is there a *ix version of Ersatz-11 >> available? ;-) \end{daemons advocate} Fred> Yes, there's one for Linsux, but, quite like the OS, it sux. Nonsense. paul From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 17 16:39:14 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: <004001c4846e$b4fff9c0$0a00a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: <20040817233914.66ee8744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:39:55 -0400 "David V. Corbin" wrote: > What is wrong with my quotes? Typical Outlook style: Full quote with headers, your text on top. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:48:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:17 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: <200408171014.46494.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 17, 4 10:14:46 am Message-ID: > > (I sent this from the wrong email address last night...oops!) > > So, I was hoping to find some sort of manual (any kind) for my TU-81+ > via google, but have failed. > > So, my TU-81+ doesn't want to power up. I've found the "hidden" power > switch under the cover that I've flipped back and forth a couple of > times, I've made sure the 110/220V jumper was set properly (110V), and > tried different power cords, all to no avail. (I've bypassed the power > controller in the rack and directly hooked the drive to an outlet.) > > The power supply "sounds" like it's getting some power when I plug it > in, as I hear a small arc, presumably charging up some capacitors. > However, the fan doesn't start up, and none of the front panel lights. > > Does anyone have any suggestions of where to go next? (Tony? :) I > could just start pulling it apart and going through it, but I prefer to > have some direction before I do that. Since you've taken my name in vaio, I'd better reply :-). However, I've never been inside a TU81+ (or a TU81 for that matter), so this is going to be somewhat general. I am going to assume ti's a switch-mode PSU and that it's somewhat separate from the rest of the machine. In which case I'd start by indentifying the output connections (it should be fairly easy to find at least the ground and +5V lines, maybe +/-12V as well). I'd then check those with a voltemter with the thing powered up -- with SMPSUs if one output is there and correct, generally the others are OK too, so you don't need to check all of them, at least not at this stage. Assuming the PSU is dead, I'd then disconnect the outputs and put dummy loads (car bulbs, for example) on the main outputs. If it works then, you've got some short or other overlaod in the rest of the machine. I think this is unlikely, since that normally causes the PSU to 'tweet' as it starts up and shuts down repeatedly. OK, now we know there's a real PSU problem. Pull the plug, and check the voltage across the mains smoothinc capacitors (these will be large-ish electrolytics, around 200V rating). If the chopper isn't running but there are no other problems, it's not unheard-of for these to remain charged, and they _will_ throw you across the room, even with the thing unplugged. However, if they are charged, then it means that the mains input circuit is working. Most likely the input circuit, in 110V mode, is a voltage doubler using the 2 caps in series and 2 diodes from a bridge rectifier (either 4 discrete diodes or a bridge rectifier module). You should be able to indentify the +ve and -ve ouputs of this circuit. Clip a voltmeter across these points (don't hand-hold the probes, you are working with rectified live mains which _will_ kill you) and power up. You're looking for about 350V DC here. If that's working, unplug again, and let things discharge. Now identify the chopper transistor (a power transistor or mosfet on the mains side of the PSU) and test it. Maybe it's open (unlikely). Then look for a resistor of a few hundred k ohms (or a couple in series) from the +ve side of the output of the doubler to some point in the choppper control circuit. Check it. THis is the startup resistor and often causes the problem you're having. If it's open, replace it with a resistor that will stand a few hundred volts (many small resistors won't, take care). Then come back here and let us (me?) know what you've found. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:51:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817113055.03277090@192.168.0.1> from "Ed Kelleher" at Aug 17, 4 11:35:10 am Message-ID: > Well certainly then because of reduced X radiation from the CRT. > The smaller fonts disturb less phosphor. But if the EHT regulation of your monitor is poor, then the EHT will actually rise on a mostly dark screen, so the energy of the X-rays will rise too. (for the humor-impaired, this is a joke. If your EHT regulation was that bad, you'd have terrible convergence and purity problems. Actually, having seen some PC monitors, though....) -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 17 17:18:14 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: univac 90/30 In-Reply-To: <412101EC.6060204@citem.org> References: <20040816181830.AA8453CA9@spies.com> <412101EC.6060204@citem.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040817171729.055c4c50@pc> At 01:50 PM 8/16/2004, Hans B PUFAL wrote: >According to the member profile they are in Switzerland. Looking at their past few acquisitions shows a bunch of electronic components, mechanical calculators and classic computers. I'd say they were building a collection ;-) John Walker of http://www.fourmilab.com/ ? - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:53:16 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171720.NAA00375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 17, 4 01:13:34 pm Message-ID: > (If displays throwing X-ray radiation is really a concern for you, the > simple fix is to use an LCD display instead.) Alternatively, learn som physics to realise just what the danger from 25kV X-rays really is (answer, not a lot!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:55:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 17, 4 01:26:51 pm Message-ID: > But you are assuming that radiation is bad.....How else would I get this > good amber tan [with a slightly green tint]???/ It always amuses me to see monitor 'filters' that claim to remove 99.9% (or something similar) of elecromagnetic radiation. I normally want to see what's on the screen (and unlike most people out there, I know that light is electromagnetic radiation ;-)) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 17:57:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> Message-ID: <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> While perfectly LEGAL, websites that won't work with last week's browser are offensive. Yes, I am exaggerating a bit. But, I do NOT need some asshole to tell me "I use a browser that is almost 8 months old, and that site runs just fine." Why do some jerks make websites that have nothing but text on them, that CARE about which release of the browser? Why do some jerks take plain text and put it in a .PDF? > Without wishing to seem disrespectful or unpleasant, you are basically > complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern motorway > traffic. While it may not be very practical for high speed freeway, where does one get off suggesting that it be banned from city streets? BTW, have you ever replaced the brake master cylinder on one? > Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? Because it is RUDE to store your crap on somebody else's machine, without identifying what is in it. And some companies make browsers that are so demented that the default settings permit "cookies" that are executable code! > So an advert banner site knows that the same computer visited it twice. > Big wow. Do you stop answering the doorbell in case it's a door-to-door > salesman? Well, you might, but it would break more things than it would > fix. Some have had experiences that call for checking through a peephole before opening the door. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 17 18:28:45 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> References: <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817191003.03b86908@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >While perfectly LEGAL, websites that won't work with last >week's browser are offensive. >Yes, I am exaggerating a bit. Yes, if a website doesn't support Nutscrape 2.0, I don't find that a big problem... but websites that support Nutscrape 7.1, but don't support Mozilla 1.9.3 (read: same damn core) I find *seriously offensive.* Yes, I find Yahoo offensive! That's like saying "Yes, we support the use of a 2002 Cadillac Escalade, but not a 2002 Chevy Avalanche! Other than the Escalade costs $10K more and you *have* to get the leather interior, they're the same damn truck! >Why do some jerks make websites that have nothing but text >on them, that CARE about which release of the browser? >Why do some jerks take plain text and put it in a .PDF? Id10T Portability. Folks who can save a PDF by right-clicking and hitting "Save Link" aren't smart enough to click "File" then "Save As." > > Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? >Because it is RUDE to store your crap on somebody else's machine, >without identifying what is in it. Turn 'em off. Problem solved. [[ BTW, cookies were originally designed to store "the user's crap on their own machine" -> preferences, settings, whatnot. Are cookies bad because of doubleclick's perverted tracking scheme? ]] >And some companies make browsers that are so demented that the >default settings permit "cookies" that are executable code! That's like saying "it's the '98 Jag's fault why you're '57 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern traffic." You can't blame the cookies due to some brain-dead program! Is email bad because of Micro$haft's perverted viruses-spreading crapware? ObClassiccmp: I used gotos all the time in my basic code. Am I now Evil Incarnate? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From ken at seefried.com Tue Aug 17 21:05:14 2004 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbf041728@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbf041728@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040818020514.26066.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: Christian Corti > >You can't change the microcode of the PALM processor. That would be like >changing the microcode of e.g. a MC68000. > Actually....you can do that. The IBM {PC,XT,AT}/370 card(s) (ISA-bus card that put a "baby" IBM S/370 on your desktop) had a CPU that was a re-microcoded 68000 (emulating some subset of the IBM S/370 mainframe instruction set). IBM licensed the architecture from Motorola. Probably got familiar with it building the IBM 9000 Instruments System. That, of course, doesn't mean you could do it on a PALM. Ken From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 21:17:20 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: nice hp on ebay Message-ID: <011701c484c9$7dc2fc40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Item 5116593901 Very impressive. Look like a F series in dual bay rack, lots and lots of memory (HSFCA at that!), and a 7925 disc drive that looks to be mint. My trailer would have no problem driving to the UK *GRIN* J From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 21:17:49 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's also a community on Orkut : http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=21812 PDP-1 : description: DEC's first computer, the PDP-1, was introduced in 1960. The first video game, SPACEWAR!, was developed on the PDP-1. A team of volunteers is restoring a PDP-1 at the Computer History Museum. On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:02:23 -0400, Ashley Carder wrote: > I took a look at that last night after Al pointed me to that > site. That sounds like a *VERY* interesting project! I've > added the URL to my favorites and will continue to follow > your activities. > > Ashley > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 1:27 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > > > > > > The Computer History Museum has a working PDP-1 computer (Passes > > all the PDP-1 > > instruction and memory diagnostics). Several of us on this list > > are members > > of the restoration team. See: > > > > http://pdp-1.org/ > > > > You might want to take a look at the "News" column that provides > > a running > > commentary on our activities. > > > > Lyle > > > > On Monday 16 August 2004 18:34, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > Ok, I'm going to try to get them. > > > Does anyone have a PDP-1? > > > > > > I'll try to get an image of the contents of the tape if I win. > > > > > > Question for list members.... what's the oldest functioning > > > PDP computer that anyone out there has, to your knowledge? > > > > > > Ashley > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > > > > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 9:21 PM > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: PDP-1 Paper Tapes (DECUS) > > > > Importance: High > > > > > > > > > > > > Going Fast... PDP-1 (alleged) Original paper tapes... Ebay #5114435762 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DEC PDP LINC tapes (DECTape) qty: 5 DIAL-v2 included > > > > > > > > NOT affiliated with this item...Just way over commited at this > > > > point to even > > > > bid.... > > > > > > > > David > > > > -- > > Lyle Bickley > > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > > > > > From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 17 21:18:06 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to><41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <41221861.F87F784E@compsys.to> <000801c4846a$4911a730$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <4122BC5E.A71C4248@compsys.to> >Ashley Carder wrote: > Cookies can be used to maintain information about a user one THEIR > computer. This way the user does not have to re-enter the same > information each time they visit a web site. For example, I use cookies > on some of my personal sites so that a user can tell me his/her name when > they first visit, then I drop a cookie on their system that contains their > name and they never have to enter it again. On subsequent visits I just > read for the cookie rather than asking them for their name again. I use > this to identify a particular user on some sites where I like to know who > visits, but where the site's not sensitive enough to implement a user id > and password login process. This works fine in a "non-public" computer > environment. Jerome Fine replies: Since I MUST always login with the userid / password (which is the only data that stays the same), that can't be the use made of cookies in this case. PLUS, I also did login from another system (ONLY once) and accessed the account records after ONLY the userid / password was supplied. Could cookies have anything to do with what Netscape calls a secure environment? The "LOCK" icon is "CLOSED" in the lock position after start the login sequence. In any case, cookies are REQUIRED and are used, though I have no idea for what purpose! Can anyone who has used cookies suggest a good reason for their use? As for the environment, I would have to describe it as PUBLIC since I suspect that I could login from anywhere in the world. Since the ONLY things that can be done are to make sure that the expected account entries are present PLUS I can transfer funds between 2 accounts, there doesn't (at least in my mind) seem to be a possible way for anyone who might break the userid / password to steal any funds - any actual withdrawal of funds MUST be done in person at the bank. I even disabled (cut off the bottom half with the magnetic stripe) the bank card, so I authorize withdrawals the old fashioned way - I give the bank my signature on a piece of paper! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 21:44:37 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100) In-Reply-To: <20040818020514.26066.qmail@mail.seefried.com> References: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbf041728@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040818020514.26066.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <4122C295.9050907@pacbell.net> Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Christian Corti > >> >> You can't change the microcode of the PALM processor. That would be like >> changing the microcode of e.g. a MC68000. > > > Actually....you can do that. > The IBM {PC,XT,AT}/370 card(s) (ISA-bus card that put a "baby" IBM S/370 > on your desktop) had a CPU that was a re-microcoded 68000 (emulating > some subset of the IBM S/370 mainframe instruction set). IBM licensed > the architecture from Motorola. Probably got familiar with it building > the IBM 9000 Instruments System. > That, of course, doesn't mean you could do it on a PALM. > Ken I've heard that repeatedly, but I actually think it isn't true. I think I know the real story. One of the designers of the 68000 was a guy named Nick Tredennick. Ten years or so ago I read a book that Tredennick wrote on his experience as the architect of the micro-370. He kept extensive notes on the project and details how the architecture evolved, the politics that came into play, the near death experiences of the project, etc. His design was influenced by his experience with the 68000 and took a lot of ideas from it, but it simply was not a remicrocoded 68000. Ah, the book is available on amazon (used). The title is "Microprocessor Logic Design". Nick Tredennick is a colorful guy. He always does a kind of roast at the hotchips presentations every year at Stanford, and is always good for quotes. He has always been a CISC booster and thought RISC was the idea of lazy architects. In the back of his Microprocessor Logic Design book he has a glossary, with more than a few funny definitions. For example, under "Testability", the definition is something like "Circuits that the test engineers make you put in that serve no useful purpose." Or under "Methodology: stuck up way of saying Method. Methodology is technically the study of methods." etc From wacarder at usit.net Tue Aug 17 22:38:09 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4122BC5E.A71C4248@compsys.to> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access > > > >Ashley Carder wrote: > > > Cookies can be used to maintain information about a user one THEIR > > computer. This way the user does not have to re-enter the same > > information each time they visit a web site. For example, I use cookies > > on some of my personal sites so that a user can tell me his/her > name when > > they first visit, then I drop a cookie on their system that > contains their > > name and they never have to enter it again. On subsequent visits I just > > read for the cookie rather than asking them for their name again. I use > > this to identify a particular user on some sites where I like > to know who > > visits, but where the site's not sensitive enough to implement a user id > > and password login process. This works fine in a "non-public" computer > > environment. The above was just one example of a way to use cookies. There are *MANY* other ways that they are used. > Jerome Fine replies: > > Since I MUST always login with the userid / password (which is > the only data that stays the same), that can't be the use made of > cookies in this case. PLUS, I also did login from another system > (ONLY once) and accessed the account records after ONLY > the userid / password was supplied. Cookies are used for lots of other things, such as storing other session data rather than passing it from page to page via query strings in the URL. > Could cookies have anything to do with what Netscape calls a > secure environment? The "LOCK" icon is "CLOSED" in the > lock position after start the login sequence. Nah, that's for https:, which uses port 443 and encrypts and decrypts data as it travels back and forth between the server and the client. > In any case, cookies are REQUIRED and are used, though > I have no idea for what purpose! Can anyone who has used > cookies suggest a good reason for their use? They're basically used to place a small piece of data on the user's computer so that it can be retrieved later, possibly during the same session or perhaps on subsequent visits to the site. They can last only for the duration of the current web session, or can be set to have an expiration date some time in the future. You can delete them yourself if you the folders to look in. Lots of people seem to be scared of cookies, but IMO they're harmless. They just contain a little piece of data that can be written and retrieved by the web site during the current session or in the future. They have a multitude of uses. > As for the environment, I would have to describe it as PUBLIC > since I suspect that I could login from anywhere in the world. Since > the ONLY things that can be done are to make sure that the expected > account entries are present PLUS I can transfer funds between > 2 accounts, there doesn't (at least in my mind) seem to be a possible > way for anyone who might break the userid / password to steal any > funds - any actual withdrawal of funds MUST be done in person at > the bank. I even disabled (cut off the bottom half with the magnetic > stripe) the bank card, so I authorize withdrawals the old fashioned way - > I give the bank my signature on a piece of paper! > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 17 22:54:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <16674.33380.821432.141376@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen writes: > > Fred> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> \begin{daemons advocate} Is there a *ix version of Ersatz-11 > >> available? ;-) \end{daemons advocate} > Fred> Yes, there's one for Linsux, but, quite like the OS, it sux. > > Nonsense. Complete and utter. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 17 23:02:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100) In-Reply-To: <4122C295.9050907@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > Nick Tredennick is a colorful guy. He's also fairly accessible: http://www.tredennick.com/ (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) I talked to him through e-mail a few years back and found him to be a really nice guy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 17 23:23:43 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <20040818020514.26066.qmail@mail.seefried.com> References: <200408170134.i7H1Xmbf041728@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040818020514.26066.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <20040818042343.GA13887@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 10:05:14PM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > Actually....you can do that. > > The IBM {PC,XT,AT}/370 card(s) (ISA-bus card that put a "baby" IBM S/370 on > your desktop) had a CPU that was a re-microcoded 68000 (emulating some > subset of the IBM S/370 mainframe instruction set). IBM licensed the > architecture from Motorola. Probably got familiar with it building the IBM > 9000 Instruments System. Interesting. I knew about the 370 card sets; didn't know they were descended from the 68000. I did work with an IBM 9000 at GE once... really slow, and the language of choice was Pascal. :-P (fortunately for me, 99% of my work was on the 11/73 next to it (I was writing a Computer-Aided Instruction course in MACRO-11 under RT-11/TSX-11)). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Aug-2004 04:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-64.9 C) Windchill -125.6 F (-87.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 064 Barometer 659.7 mb (11400. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 17 23:17:46 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408180432.AAA00667@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Good Dual Monitor Controller Card... > http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/aiw9800pro/specs.html [About $300] Three problems: it demands an Intel-architecture CPU (why on earth would it care what the CPU is?!), it demands Windows, and it demands an obscene amount of RAM (why would it care how much RAM there is?!). > Or For 3-D work [single monitor only] > http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx800/specs.html [About $500] Useless as far as I can tell; I couldn't find any obvious documentation, at least. (It can have all the whizzy hardware it wants, but if I don't know how to access it, it's useless. Like the transform engine I understand the cg6 has, or the acceleration I understand the cg14 has....) At least it doesn't say it's Intel-architecture-only or Windows-only, but as it doesn't say it's not this could just be an accidental omission on their part. > 1600x1200 [not 1280 which you may be confusing with 1280x1204] is > what I run on my 17" screens. When I spoke of seeing 1600x1280 running, it's possible what I saw was actually 1600x1200. When I spoke of having a monochrome 1600x1280 monitor and using it until it went dim on me, that was 1600x1280. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 17 23:32:36 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <200408171440.21836.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200408171440.21836.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200408180441.AAA00712@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> 2048x1536 (with is 4 1024x768 areas on the same glass) is what I use >> on some of my 21"/22" monitors. > Ick. I don't do anything higher than about 1280x1024 on a 20" > monitor, and I usually am sitting no more than 16" back from it. At > 1600x1200, even on "good" monitors, I can't see things anymore. My > rule of thumb is you should be able to see the individual dots in a > grid of 1x1 pixel dots (but they shouldn't be too big). !! I can't imagine why, unless you insist on using the same size-in-pixels for things like font glyphs even on decent-resolution displays where individual pixels are too small to see. >> 1600x1200 [...] is what I run on my 17" screens. > You must have 20-10 vision or something, because no human should be > able to see 1x1 pixel dots on something with that high of DPI. You seem to have jumped from "this is what I run" to "I can see individual pixels on this". I see no basis whatever for such an inference. If I had a 1000dpi display available, I certainly wouldn't avoid it just because I couldn't make out individual pixels! And aside from that...1600x1200 is 2000 pixel-widths diagonally; over 17 inches, that's about 118 dpi. What's your reference for believing 118dpi is something "no [normal] human should be able to see"? I have no problem seeing detail that fine.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 17 23:41:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <41226A9A.4070005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <41226A9A.4070005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200408180557.BAA01274@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Even when using classic character based environments, these high >> screen resolutions can come in handy.... 12 or more glass teletypes >> [80x24] on a single screen. > It don't work that way. More screen you have, more dancing > icons,borders and menues pop up. Not on _my_ screen they don't! Icons belong in shrines. Menus belong in restaurants. Look at ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/screenshot.ppm (or .gif if you don't mind a GIF, or .ppm.gz or .ppm.bz2 if you want the PPM compressed) if you're curious what my screen looks like. (The smallest is the .ppm.bz2.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 18 03:05:00 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:06:57 PDT." <200408172106.OAA02917@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200408180805.JAA22787@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Dwight K. Elvey" said: > > >From: "Geoffrey Thomas" > > > >Just remembered - it was the "spontaflex" ,- it was Sir Douglas Hall and > >there is a web page devoted to his circuits. > >Geoff. > > > > Hi > A quick search shows that these are at: > > http://freespace.virgin.net/spontaflex.reflex/ > > From looking at some of the text, these are a combination > of a reflex with some regenerative feedback to increase the > Q of the tuning circuits. > I suppose one could write programs to sing through such > a receiver on their clasic computer. I built a 1-transistor regenerative reflex receiver back in the late '60s. I used a OC170 transistor salvaged from a scrap Ferranti computer board, which keeps it on-topic I suppose :-) I wish I'd kept the board now...probably an Atlas one :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Aug 18 04:54:32 2004 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with IBM 5100 - ROS error In-Reply-To: <200408170133.i7H1Xmbc041728@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000a01c2469a$fbac82d0$6501a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:08:17 -0400 > From: Dave Dunfield > Subject: Help with IBM 5100 - ROS error > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > <20040816220816.XZGR13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > According to the maintenance manual, line 1 cols 1 and 2 should contain the ID of the module it is looking for (18) and > 5 and 7 contain an error code (07). > > I have not been able to determine what '07' means ... Perhaps its in the manual, but I have not found it yet. (Please > > bear with me, I haven't seen a real live 5100 in aver 20 years, and I have never worked on one before). My 5100 maintenance manual is buried, but my 5110 manual says that error "07" is a CRC error in the ROS. I have notes diagnosing a similar problem indicating that one possible solution is to remove any tape in the tape drive before powering on. Seems unlikely that this would work, but you never know. -W From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 04:48:22 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100) In-Reply-To: References: <4122C295.9050907@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <41234206.2842.2D3AC911@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 21:02 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > > Nick Tredennick is a colorful guy. > He's also fairly accessible: > http://www.tredennick.com/ > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) it gets better when you go to his card. But I like the crane truck ... that and the other make a fine classic computer rescue vehicle squad :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 05:26:22 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: References: <200408171720.NAA00375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 17, 4 01:13:34 pm Message-ID: <41234AEE.25912.2D5D92A5@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 22:53 meinte Tony Duell: > > (If displays throwing X-ray radiation is really a concern for you, the > > simple fix is to use an LCD display instead.) > Alternatively, learn som physics to realise just what the danger from > 25kV X-rays really is (answer, not a lot!) No Tony, you must be completely wrong. As lower as the energy gets, as more dangerous it is. You know, when they tell us that it's X-Ray, but harmless, that means they don't want to tell us the truce! *G* Well, I had my most memorable moment when I bough my condo and had it redone. I hired a friend of mine to supervise it. She's an architect and did quite a lot of similar jobs. So while we where discussing what to do, she asked me if I want an 'all off switch' in the bed room. I think I must have looked quite stupid, so she explained that this would be a switch to cut off power from the outlets and the light, and that a lot of people doing projects in a similar setting request that. When I argued, that outlets where nothing is plugged in are already off, and the same goes for the light (when if I switch it off). She told me that there are 'experts' telling people that these lines still engulf you in low frequency radio waves, and only a complete cut off will help. It took me some time to understand that ... no, that's a lie, I still haven't understood this mindset. I mean, what is it good for to 'switch off' the wires in the sealing which is usualy some 2m away from the place you rest your head,and keep the ones in the room below, that is less than a meter away, on 'full radiation power'? Or have a power outlet 'switched off' when in the same wall, just a few cm away, on the other side, is a regular one? I learned even more weiredness about that. For example you may 'shield' your bed room by having copper wire wall paper. No, not massive copper fabric, but a rather wide (>1cm) copper grid to be put on the wall before the real wallpaper, or even 'higehr quality', wallpaper that has already some wires in. I mean, beside leaving the sealing free (in most cases), even the most paranoid don't put 'em on the floor. Not to mention, that I haven't found any information aout the frequency range and so on, but as I see it, it just works because it's there, and everybody knows, that a metalic cage shields of electricity. Doesn't it? Boy I'm glad nobody told this to my mobile phone - otherwise it would stop working inside cars. Well, so much for electricity, but tha's prety 'normal' the real weirdos even got for total shielded houses and are realy concerned about 'earth waves' and 'fields'. Yeah, right, she told me, she once had a client who requestes to have a copper layer in the concrete basement (over here usualy every single house hase a basement, and usualy made of concrete). Jup, the copper should protect the family. Stupid me would be, if at all, more concerned about the radiation from the concrete itself - not realy stopable by a few embedded wires. Well, I could go on for hours. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 06:21:35 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817191003.03b86908@mail.30below.com> References: <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> Am 17 Aug 2004 19:28 meinte Roger Merchberger: > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > >And some companies make browsers that are so demented that the > >default settings permit "cookies" that are executable code! > That's like saying "it's the '98 Jag's fault why you're '57 Morris Minor > can't keep up with modern traffic." You can't blame the cookies due to some > brain-dead program! > Is email bad because of Micro$haft's perverted viruses-spreading crapware? Yes! (I had to jump this) And realy yes, MS gave eMail a bad name, especialy with their stupid way of quoteing. I mean, can this be called quoteing at all? Adding the whole mail and just puting the cursor at the beginning? I get often mails at work that are the result of 10 or more such actions ... Maybe the guy who invented the shit was a huge fan of HP calculators ... reading previous mails in reverse order. Of course always includeing all headers and footers. And of course no way to act context orientated (aka embedding responses together. Serious, I hate it. > ObClassiccmp: I used gotos all the time in my basic code. Am I now Evil > Incarnate? ;-) YES! You could have tone the same with gosub and stack modification. In Applesoft Basic, this would even be supportet by the language. The POP command just removes one entry from the GOSUB stack :) -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 18 06:28:02 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: nice hp on ebay In-Reply-To: <011701c484c9$7dc2fc40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > Item 5116593901 > > Very impressive. Look like a F series in dual bay rack, lots and lots of > memory (HSFCA at that!), and a 7925 disc drive that looks to be mint. > > My trailer would have no problem driving to the UK *GRIN* Especially with those nice new tires! From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 18 06:51:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> Message-ID: Hans, I beg to differ on opinions on e-mail quoting. I really dislike having to scroll past all of the stuff I have already read, or even scan through a mix of old and new. To be honest I dislike the whole use of e-mails for "conversations". I would much rather have the ability to organize the information into something USEFUL. If the ability existed to simply post a link to the previous mail that would be helpful. If we were allowed things other than just text [although I completely understand the reasons for keeping this pure text] I would encapsulate the previous messages[s]. They should be there for reference, in most cases they have alrady been read. I offered to provide a site where the information could be better organized and crosslinked, but there was opposition for a number of people here. Perhaps I look at information a bit differently than some others. I would like the ability to track a given topic without seeing repeat information [regardless of how it is quoted], handle the information in topical, originator and time based fashions. Just my thoughts.... David. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 18 06:47:58 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to><41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <14558.195.212.29.83.1092829678.squirrel@server.inet> Fred Cisin said: >> Without wishing to seem disrespectful or unpleasant, you are basically >> complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern >> motorway >> traffic. > > While it may not be very practical for high speed freeway, > where does one get off suggesting that it be banned from > city streets? Didn't say it should be banned from city streets, did I? > BTW, have you ever replaced the brake master cylinder on one? Yes. Very recently, in fact. The scratches in my forearm are still stinging, and I suspect a blood test would reveal a fair proportion of DOT-3 in my bloodstream. I just *love* how you need to be both inside the car and underneath it at the same time... >> Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? > Because it is RUDE to store your crap on somebody else's machine, > without identifying what is in it. Actually they're storing *your* crap on your machine. > And some companies make browsers that are so demented that the > default settings permit "cookies" that are executable code! Don't use them then. Use a proper browser like Firefox or Opera. >> So an advert banner site knows that the same computer visited it twice. >> Big wow. Do you stop answering the doorbell in case it's a door-to-door >> salesman? Well, you might, but it would break more things than it would >> fix. > Some have had experiences that call for checking through a peephole > before opening the door. As I have said previously, Firefox has got really good cookie management - you can specify whether you want to block, allow or warn when a cookie arrives, for each site that you visit. Great stuff. I know we all like big, clunky, old computers, but does that mean that every single piece of software we use has to meet the 10-year-rule too? Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 18 07:02:12 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408180702.12628.pat@computer-refuge.org> I don't agree with your statement at all. (And, this is the type of email I sometimes end up seeing from people who use outlook. Good luck trying to figure out what part I was disagreeing with.) Anyhow, on discussion groups like this one, "conversations" over email (exchanging email about a topic) is what the mailing list is all about... It sucks when you end up seeing something 1/2 way through the thread and can't determine what the people were talking about anymore, from people either top-posting or deleting useful quoted info. Just my $0.02 ($0.03 CAN) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org On Wednesday 18 August 2004 06:51, David V. Corbin wrote: > Hans, > > I beg to differ on opinions on e-mail quoting. I really dislike > having to scroll past all of the stuff I have already read, or even > scan through a mix of old and new. To be honest I dislike the whole > use of e-mails for "conversations". I would much rather have the > ability to organize the information into something USEFUL. > > If the ability existed to simply post a link to the previous mail > that would be helpful. If we were allowed things other than just text > [although I completely understand the reasons for keeping this pure > text] I would encapsulate the previous messages[s]. They should be > there for reference, in most cases they have alrady been read. > > I offered to provide a site where the information could be better > organized and crosslinked, but there was opposition for a number of > people here. Perhaps I look at information a bit differently than > some others. I would like the ability to track a given topic without > seeing repeat information [regardless of how it is quoted], handle > the information in topical, originator and time based fashions. > > Just my thoughts.... > > David. From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Aug 18 07:52:22 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > > In any case, cookies are REQUIRED and are used, though > > I have no idea for what purpose! Can anyone who has used > > cookies suggest a good reason for their use? > > They're basically used to place a small piece of data on the user's > computer so that it can be retrieved later, possibly during the > same session or perhaps on subsequent visits to the site. They > can last only for the duration of the current web session, or can > be set to have an expiration date some time in the future. You > can delete them yourself if you the folders to look in. > > Lots of people seem to be scared of cookies, but IMO they're harmless. > They just contain a little piece of data that can be written and > retrieved by the web site during the current session or in the > future. They have a multitude of uses. The only (IMHO) valid reason to be concerned about cookies has to do w/ advertising. Many (all?) of the banner ad sites aren't just a image banner ad, they are a bit of HTML code that reads a cookie, possibly stores a cookie, and displays the image. The reason people get concerned about cookies, is now your participating in a advertising study, without one's knowledge nor consent. Many of those cookies are unique identifiers too, so now the advertising can collect your browsing habits, and sell them to other marketing droids. Frankly, I'm not too keen on someone else (effectivly) standing over my shoulder while I surf the web, and watching the sites I go to. Granted those advertising/marketing droids can only watch your browsing on "participating" sites, but w/ the prevalence of adserver.com, advertising.com, 2o7.net, its still more than I'd like. IMHO/YMMV/Std. Disclaimers may apply/Etc. David From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 18 08:26:53 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with IBM 5100 - ROS error Message-ID: <20040818132652.IWWW26191.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> According to the maintenance manual, line 1 cols 1 and 2 should >contain the ID of the module it is looking for (18) and > 5 and 7 >contain an error code (07). >> >> I have not been able to determine what '07' means ... Perhaps its in >the manual, but I have not found it yet. (Please > > bear with me, I >haven't seen a real live 5100 in aver 20 years, and I have never worked >on one before). > >My 5100 maintenance manual is buried, but my 5110 manual says that error >"07" is a CRC error in the ROS. I have notes diagnosing a similar >problem indicating that one possible solution is to remove any tape in >the tape drive before powering on. Seems unlikely that this would work, >but you never know. Hi Wayne, Where exactly in the maintenance manual are the codes listed - I did not find them when I looked. Although the machine was stored with a tape in the drive (keep mice out), I had already removed it before my tests.-- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 18 08:29:55 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27542.195.212.29.83.1092835795.squirrel@server.inet> David Holland said: > > Frankly, I'm not too keen on someone else (effectivly) standing > over my shoulder while I surf the web, and watching the sites > I go to. So use a browser that allows you to block advertising sites. Or, use something like Junkbuster Proxy. Either will do what you want. Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 18 08:39:47 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Help! TU81 Plus tape drive problems. In-Reply-To: <001301c4848a$279cfe90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001301c4848a$279cfe90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200408180839.47761.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 13:43, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I offered to host them for him, if he doesn't want to deal with the > > bandwidth, etc. :) > > They'll be headed off to Patrick soon (and then he'll > put them up I guess). These (and the rest of the manuals > on the CDs they came from) will be headed off to Manx > as soon as I find out exactly how many of these manuals > Paul is missing. So it will all be available soon for > everyone. I've got them up at: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/tu81/ Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 08:47:07 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <200408180557.BAA01274@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <41226A9A.4070005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <412379FB.12316.2E155D6D@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 0:41 meinte der Mouse: > >> Even when using classic character based environments, these high > >> screen resolutions can come in handy.... 12 or more glass teletypes > >> [80x24] on a single screen. > > It don't work that way. More screen you have, more dancing > > icons,borders and menues pop up. > Not on _my_ screen they don't! > Icons belong in shrines. Menus belong in restaurants. Thanky, just added to my sigs :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 08:47:07 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: References: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> Message-ID: <412379FB.11422.2E155D00@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 7:51 meinte David V. Corbin: > I beg to differ on opinions on e-mail quoting. I really dislike having to > scroll past all of the stuff I have already read, or even scan through a mix > of old and new. To be honest I dislike the whole use of e-mails for > "conversations". I would much rather have the ability to organize the > information into something USEFUL. This requires even more discipline ... and worse: the same understanding of structure (and usefulness) is needed for all parties involved. > If the ability existed to simply post a link to the previous mail that would > be helpful. If we were allowed things other than just text [although I > completely understand the reasons for keeping this pure text] I would > encapsulate the previous messages[s]. They should be there for reference, in > most cases they have alrady been read. Read, and remembering an exact argument to which a third person is refering are two different issues. After all, a Mailing List is not realy a dialogue between two people, but rather a group doing a conference - with time delay. Now, while in a real meeting you would directly answer, it already gets hard to answer one person if you're the third in row to reply ... at least I have always a hard time to remember my arguments and listen to the speakers inbetween. Especialy when they come up with new and good arguments. Now adding the time delay is like having multiple meetings at the same time, since the streams split up (and join again, maybe) into threads of subdiscusions. Instead of encapsulateing whole messages, which are then a mere archive (that could be external), you need to be specific, what you are addressing. Now, in a real meeting you would do something like 'Fine, but coming back to what David said about usefulness and ... I would like to add that ...'. Isn't it? Here comes the great part of email communication and embedded quoteing. Instead of giving a mere hint what topic you're answering, you quote all parts that are _relevant_ to your statement. Thus setting an easy to follow stage for furter understanding. In my last Mail I did show my strong disregard for the MS-Style of includeing a complete previous mail with all the technical glibebrisch arround at the end of a mail. Part of that also goes to people who use classic usenet style the microsoft way, by just quoteing everything and then putting a mere line below. If I answer a posting I try to quote only the parts that are necersarry to understand the flow of arguments. In most cases I remove old empty lines, and even shorten quotes (by adding [...]) and of course, I get rid of headers and footers. To me that's part of the communication. I try to state as specific as possible what it is about (A notable exception here are of course postings with a rather funny background, where the sequence (and way it is written) are part of the fun) > I offered to provide a site where the information could be better organized > and crosslinked, but there was opposition for a number of people here. > Perhaps I look at information a bit differently than some others. I would > like the ability to track a given topic without seeing repeat information > [regardless of how it is quoted], handle the information in topical, > originator and time based fashions. Well, nice, and a great idea - except that good information retrival is 99% about how the information is prepared beforehand and only 1% about how it is accessed ... and so we're back to the discipline part. And usenet style of quoteing, if handled properly, is to me a way to provide reuseable pices of information. If several people reply to each other in a way of quoteing the necersary parts to create a final summary, then this is the document to be accessed later. The documents on the way there are merly drafts, and only usefull if you want to explore the sidelines. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 08:53:36 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... Message-ID: <15670677.1092837217141.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I disagree (tongue-in-cheek) best regards, Steve Thatcher From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 18 09:09:47 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <200408180557.BAA01274@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Aug 18, 4 00:41:37 am" Message-ID: <200408181409.HAA09908@floodgap.com> > Look at ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/screenshot.ppm (or .gif > if you don't mind a GIF, or .ppm.gz or .ppm.bz2 if you want the PPM > compressed) if you're curious what my screen looks like. (The smallest > is the .ppm.bz2.) % ftp ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca: Operation timed out ftp> :( -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 18 09:16:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <412379FB.11422.2E155D00@localhost> Message-ID: Hans, I Completely agree with wht you are saying.... >>> Well, nice, and a great idea - except that good information retrival is 99% about how the information is prepared beforehand and only 1% about how it is accessed ... and so we're back to the discipline part. Therefore the work need to be done AS THE INFORMATION IS ADDED. Look back at the Web and its original intention (Getting away from Linear information flow). The "problem" is that the information was posted with no regard to organization, structure, duplication, or in fact anything! Now what we have is a vast repository of information that in many cases is entirely useless. Forumulate almost any simple question... "What Year did....", "Who Said....", "What is the maximum resolution of [fill-in] video card?". In each of these cases I am sure the information is on some page of some site somewhere. Any search engine will return tons of junk, due to their very nature. Going back to non-realtime communication...I am not sure if you use any of the MOTERATED forums that exist on the web. Postings are organized into topic, the moderators will move items that are misplaced, and edit content that is not appropriate. I do the same for "non-structured" content that I wish to track that originates from e-mails by having my e-mail integrated with a CRM system. The only annoying part right now is deailng with the "duality" of the from addresses. Since I (usually) read my e-mail in the order it is received, it is quite common to (want to ) respond to an issue that has already been addressed. The alternaive of reading my most recently first has other issues and is not really a solution. When I am in an environment that shows a TREE with responses organized by who was responjding to which element of the topic, I can easily see if that issue has a response, scane that (without reading all of the responses in the entire discussion) and then decide if I want to respond (to the person who originally raised the issue, or to the last person who chimed in on the matter). David From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 09:28:05 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <15670677.1092837217141.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41238395.17330.2E3AE1BC@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 0:00 meinte Steve Thatcher: > I disagree > (tongue-in-cheek) *G* I like that ... now, if your mailer would at least support the in-reply-to header, David would have a point here :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Aug 18 10:16:28 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: FTGH - Wyse Adapter Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040818160452.03672548@albert> I've come across this adapter in my junk box... http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/adapter.jpg (37Kb) It's a 5 pin DIN socket, to an RJ11 + lead with a single large pin with a slot in it. I /think/ it was for a Wyse AT computer to allow the use of a standard PC AT Keyboard, but don't quote me on that. There is a part number on the moulding of the DIN - 940398-02 REV. A - but googling shows nothing. If anybody wants it, it's theirs for free; just cover the postage. Talking of Wyse ... I have two Wyse 120 terminals, a Wyse 30+, and another serial terminal I can't remember the brand of - (not a major one, and has reseller's name on the front) - all free to anybody who wants to come collect from Salford, UK. Rob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 18 10:14:10 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <15670677.1092837217141.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <15670677.1092837217141.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1092842050.24781.61.camel@weka.localdomain> surely (tongue-in-cheek) not? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 18 10:39:03 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <1092842050.24781.61.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Must remember not to close Jaw when tongue in cheek..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>> surely >>> >>> (tongue-in-cheek) >>> >>> not? >>> >>> ================================= ============= OR ================ ================================= >>> >>> surely >>> >>> (tongue-in-cheek) >>> >>> not? >>> >>> Must remember not to close Jaw when tongue in cheek..... ================================= ============= OR ================ ================================= >>> Must >>> surely Remember >>> not to close >>> (tongue-in-cheek) Jaw >>> when >>> not? tongue >>> in >>> cheek..... From cb at mythtech.net Wed Aug 18 10:33:08 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: FTGH - Wyse Adapter Message-ID: >It's a 5 pin DIN socket, to an RJ11 + lead with a single large pin with a >slot in it. > >I /think/ it was for a Wyse AT computer to allow the use of a standard PC >AT Keyboard, but don't quote me on that. You are correct, that is what the adaptor is for. Or at least it looks just like the one I had for that purpose. I'm not sure if I still have mine or not (I no longer have the Wyse PC it went with) I have a crappy diagram and pinout to make one of these: -chris From kth at srv.net Wed Aug 18 10:53:46 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: FTGH - Wyse Adapter In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040818160452.03672548@albert> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040818160452.03672548@albert> Message-ID: <41237B8A.4030703@srv.net> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > I've come across this adapter in my junk box... > > http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/adapter.jpg (37Kb) Wow, I've got one of those too. If someone offers you a wheelbarrow full of cash for it, let me know. > > It's a 5 pin DIN socket, to an RJ11 + lead with a single large pin > with a slot in it. > > I /think/ it was for a Wyse AT computer to allow the use of a standard > PC AT Keyboard, but don't quote me on that. I believe that's correct, but not 100% sure. It would have been used pre 80386. > > There is a part number on the moulding of the DIN - 940398-02 REV. A - > but googling shows nothing. Sure it's not 940393-01 REV A? Maybe mine's rarer than yours? > > If anybody wants it, it's theirs for free; just cover the postage. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 18 11:14:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... Message-ID: <200408181614.JAA03550@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" Hi Steve You make several good points but I find your last statement without foundation. I tend to agree. Dwight From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Wed Aug 18 11:21:26 2004 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <41237B8A.4030703@srv.net> Message-ID: <200408181212515.SM03168@bobdev> I'm curious as to the origin of database software that allows display/edit of the data in a row/column format. All early PC based database software that I had exposure to layed out each record one at a time on the screen, as a "form". You could only view/edit one record at a time. Such programs for the Apple were pfs:FILE, CCA-DMS, and VisiFile. In the summer of 1981 I wrote a replacement for the "maintenance" module of VisiFile that looked like a spreadsheet, and displayed all the data records as rows, and fields in columns. I had never seen any other software do this with a database, although to me it seemed like a natural thing to do, given the popularity of spreadsheets. Now, just about all database software displays data in the row/column metaphor. But was my program the first? I have to admit that my exposure to other database systems was pretty limited in that period - for example, I have never used any mainframe database systems at all. Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of DATABASE software that uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981? It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is now commonplace in databases, although I have to admit that it's a pretty easy mental jump from a spreadsheet to a row/column display of database idea, so it's more likely that others came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software! - Bob From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 18 11:41:08 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:18 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <200408181614.JAA03550@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: I believe that Steves Last Comment (that being the last comment that I received before any comments that he may have sent that I don't believe you to have read at the time you sent the message that I am responding to and you will soon (hopefully) be reading). It would be a personal insult to Steve to NOT believe that he was sincere an honest in that comment. Although the one prior to it (in the same message), which has previously generated feedback from me (oh should I include that too) may be taken in a number of ways, as I have previously done. Additionally the interveneing comments by other members have an impact also (although I am not sure what it is), but if you mook solely at the messages that were sent in the interval between Patricks first post on this subject and Hans first response you will see that Dave Dunfield has been tring to focus on his own issue (which Wayne has of course been helping on). I do suspect that Wayne may hve just been lurking since himing in in on the other issue, which I wonder if the original poster ever got an answer that he can use for hist original purpose..It would be interesting if the 94 responses (subjed to the one by Wayne mentioned above) did not provide such an answer. Or is it really not suprising since that is difficult to determine using this technology.... David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:15 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: E-Mail Quoting... >>> >>> >From: "Steve Thatcher" >>> >>> Hi Steve >>> You make several good points but I find your last >>> statement without foundation. >>> I tend to agree. >>> Dwight >>> >>> From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 11:55:43 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... Message-ID: <28839862.1092848145141.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> thanks and kudoos to Dwight and Dave for lightening a stressful day at work. To have taken my rather terse comment and created such wonderful content is what life is all about. LOL best regards, Steve now my only problem is whether I should leave the rest of the email or snip it off... sigh -----Original Message----- From: "David V. Corbin" Sent: Aug 18, 2004 12:41 PM To: "'Dwight K. Elvey'" , "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: E-Mail Quoting... I believe that Steves Last Comment (that being the last comment that I received before any comments that he may have sent that I don't believe you to have read at the time you sent the message that I am responding to and you will soon (hopefully) be reading). It would be a personal insult to Steve to NOT believe that he was sincere an honest in that comment. Although the one prior to it (in the same message), which has previously generated feedback from me (oh should I include that too) may be taken in a number of ways, as I have previously done. Additionally the interveneing comments by other members have an impact also (although I am not sure what it is), but if you mook solely at the messages that were sent in the interval between Patricks first post on this subject and Hans first response you will see that Dave Dunfield has been tring to focus on his own issue (which Wayne has of course been helping on). I do suspect that Wayne may hve just been lurking since himing in in on the other issue, which I wonder if the original poster ever got an answer that he can use for hist original purpose..It would be interesting if the 94 responses (subjed to the one by Wayne mentioned above) did not provide such an answer. Or is it really not suprising since that is difficult to determine using this technology.... David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:15 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: E-Mail Quoting... >>> >>> >From: "Steve Thatcher" >>> >>> Hi Steve >>> You make several good points but I find your last >>> statement without foundation. >>> I tend to agree. >>> Dwight >>> >>> From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Aug 18 12:00:58 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <200408181212515.SM03168@bobdev> Message-ID: <002f01c48544$ef2caf90$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Bob, I used Ingres and Britton-Lee in the late 70's. They were certainly not the first. COBOL supports row/column data natively (records and fields), so the concept is at least as old as its presence in the language (1960's?). Accountants have used tabular forms for their data for centuries (millenia?), so I'd imagine that as it relates to computers and databases, this is probably one of the earliest forms of data storage. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Lafleur > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 9:21 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Origin of row/column based database software > > > I'm curious as to the origin of database software that allows > display/edit of the data in a row/column format. > > All early PC based database software that I had exposure to > layed out each record one at a time on the screen, as a > "form". You could only view/edit one record at a time. Such > programs for the Apple were pfs:FILE, CCA-DMS, and VisiFile. > > In the summer of 1981 I wrote a replacement for the > "maintenance" module of VisiFile that looked like a > spreadsheet, and displayed all the data records as rows, and > fields in columns. I had never seen any other software do > this with a database, although to me it seemed like a natural > thing to do, given the popularity of spreadsheets. > > Now, just about all database software displays data in the > row/column metaphor. But was my program the first? I have to > admit that my exposure to other database systems was pretty > limited in that period - for example, I have never used any > mainframe database systems at all. > > Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of DATABASE > software that uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981? > > It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is now > commonplace in databases, although I have to admit that it's > a pretty easy mental jump from a spreadsheet to a row/column > display of database idea, so it's more likely that others > came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software! > > - Bob > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 18 12:27:03 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <200408181212515.SM03168@bobdev> References: <41237B8A.4030703@srv.net> Message-ID: <4123AD87.16672.2EDEBA9F@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 12:21 meinte Bob Lafleur: > Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of DATABASE software that > uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981? > It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is now commonplace in > databases, although I have to admit that it's a pretty easy mental jump from > a spreadsheet to a row/column display of database idea, so it's more likely > that others came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software! Well, I don't want to destroy your impression, but organizeing data(bases) as rows and columns is as old as the punch card. Working since some years on mainframes (which are still way influenced by the 80 column layout of punch cards) I almost can't imagine to look at any data that way. I remember a set of programms we did (or better let a generator/compiler do) four our system to view/handle records (It was the time when we finaly got several terminals *G*). The top of screen was reserved for navigation, while each line was dedicated to a record - or in some cases, multiple lines (which reduced the number of records (rows) displayed. You could move arround and change as many fields of as many records as you wanted. By hitting the transmit key, all changes where send back to the host and then incooperated into the database. IIRC, one of the system editors even had a feature where it could handle a ISAM based file as records with defined fields and display them (with according protected/non protected screen sections) for editing - in contrast to our own programms, one screen line was always one record, and you had to 'scroll' right/left to access fields outside the displayed area. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 18 12:58:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <200408180702.12628.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Anyhow, on discussion groups like this one, "conversations" over email > (exchanging email about a topic) is what the mailing list is all > about... It sucks when you end up seeing something 1/2 way through the > thread and can't determine what the people were talking about anymore, > from people either top-posting or deleting useful quoted info. I wouldn't mind as much if they would learn to TRIM THEIR REPLIES!!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 18 12:58:20 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: Stan Barr "Re: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. )" (Aug 18, 9:05) References: <200408180805.JAA22787@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <10408181858.ZM23062@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 18 2004, 9:05, Stan Barr wrote: > I built a 1-transistor regenerative reflex receiver back in the > late '60s. I used a OC170 transistor salvaged from a scrap Ferranti > computer board, which keeps it on-topic I suppose :-) > > I wish I'd kept the board now...probably an Atlas one :-( I wish I'd kept the Ferranti ones I had -- lovely PCBs with alloy surrounds, carefully wirewrapped. They were TSR2 avionics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Aug 18 13:19:56 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: References: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> Message-ID: <39183.127.0.0.1.1092853196.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> > I beg to differ on opinions on e-mail quoting. I really dislike having to > scroll past all of the stuff I have already read, or even scan through a > mix of old and new. That's one of the reasons I like threaded message boards better then email lists. Sure, the information isn't "delivered to your door" but you can follow a thread from A to B easily, ignore threads you don't care about completely and figure out what the latest additions are very quickly. Of course, there's the possibility of the same types of issues you see here with excessive quoting and such, but it seems a lot less prevalent on boards I frequent. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 18 13:32:58 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... Message-ID: <200408181832.LAA03652@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> Anyhow, on discussion groups like this one, "conversations" over email >> (exchanging email about a topic) is what the mailing list is all >> about... It sucks when you end up seeing something 1/2 way through the >> thread and can't determine what the people were talking about anymore, >> from people either top-posting or deleting useful quoted info. > >I wouldn't mind as much if they would learn to TRIM THEIR REPLIES!!! > Trim replies and change subject when appropriate. I'm guilty of failing to do both at times but I'll try to do better. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 13:59:50 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Change subject (was: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <200408181832.LAA03652@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408181832.LAA03652@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040818115743.K57065@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> about... It sucks when you end up seeing something 1/2 way through the > >> thread and can't determine what the people were talking about anymore, > >> from people either top-posting or deleting useful quoted info. > >I wouldn't mind as much if they would learn to TRIM THEIR REPLIES!!! > Trim replies and change subject when appropriate. good idea From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 14:54:07 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <14558.195.212.29.83.1092829678.squirrel@server.inet> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to><41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> <14558.195.212.29.83.1092829678.squirrel@server.inet> Message-ID: <20040818122729.V57065@shell.lmi.net> > >> complaining that your 1957 Morris Minor can't keep up with modern > >> motorway traffic. > > While it may not be very practical for high speed freeway, > > where does one get off suggesting that it be banned from > > city streets? On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Didn't say it should be banned from city streets, did I? You certainly didn't. Nor anything else objectionable. But banning the Minor from city streets is an apt analogy for websites that are for dissemination of text information that will not permit last week's versions of the browsers. [YES, that is exaggerated. But why should a textual information website be inaccessible to TEN YEAR OLD browsers, either?] Some websites, for no apparent reason, are inaccessible with "obsolete" versions of Netscrape and Internet Exploiter on Win2K machines. That isn't old enough to have had a chance to become "obsolete"! > > BTW, have you ever replaced the brake master cylinder on one? > Yes. Very recently, in fact. The scratches in my forearm are still Wasn't the finest example of service accessibility! It's been 30 years since I did one. > >> Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? > > Because it is RUDE to store your crap on somebody else's machine, > > without identifying what is in it. > Actually they're storing *your* crap on your machine. These days, it seems that way too many sites want to store crap, when there is NO rational reason to do so. Do certain "web page creation for incompetents" programs have "store a cookie" as the DEFAULT? > > And some companies make browsers that are so demented that the > > default settings permit "cookies" that are executable code! > Don't use them then. Use a proper browser like Firefox or Opera. A significant portion of my time online is in computer labs at the colleges where I teach, where I literally could be fired if caught installing or using software other than what incompetent administrators have approved. Sorry, but that means I'm unable to comply with some excellent advice. > I know we all like big, clunky, old computers, but does that mean that > every single piece of software we use has to meet the 10-year-rule too? The objection is to websites that set an arbitrary and unreasonable bar of recency. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 15:21:39 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <200408181212515.SM03168@bobdev> References: <200408181212515.SM03168@bobdev> Message-ID: <20040818130030.H57065@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Bob Lafleur wrote: > I'm curious as to the origin of database software that allows display/edit > of the data in a row/column format. a name for it from forty years ago was "flat-file database". It was quite common for simple data in the EAM ("electronic accounting machine" (punchcard)) days. But it didn't have the "interactive" screen nature that you want. I remember in 1967, Wilson Price telling Ben Micallef that someday all end user would have machines on their desks to do it on TV screens. Micallef said, "May we live so long" (idiomatic for "no way") He did NOT live to see it. When VisiCalc came out, although it was "intended" for arithmetic use, LOTS of people used it for keeping track of simple record/field data. And, of course, all of the VisiClones, such as Lotus and Excel ended up being used for it. I have Excel business database files that used to be Lotus files that used to be Visicalc files. And somewhere,... I should still have some that used to be punchcards (manually reentered into Visicalc). > All early PC based database software that I had exposure to layed out each > record one at a time on the screen, as a "form". You could only view/edit > one record at a time. Such programs for the Apple were pfs:FILE, CCA-DMS, > and VisiFile. It was traditional in Data Processing to have "data entry" completely separate from interactive use of the data. And data entry is STILL usually done by showing a single record at a time on the screen. > In the summer of 1981 I wrote a replacement for the "maintenance" module of > VisiFile that looked like a spreadsheet, and displayed all the data records > as rows, and fields in columns. I had never seen any other software do this > with a database, although to me it seemed like a natural thing to do, given > the popularity of spreadsheets. Yes, it WAS an obvious thing to do. > Now, just about all database software displays data in the row/column > metaphor. But was my program the first? I have to admit that my exposure to > other database systems was pretty limited in that period - for example, I > have never used any mainframe database systems at all. No, your prograam was NOT the first. In the 1960s, with punchcards for data storage, and using a 407 to print it out as rows and columns, I maintained a few minor databases, such as name and address files. I don't consider the 407 to be a computer. I consider it a board programmable free-standing peripheral. (EAM machine!) If we call the 407 a computer, then we'd also have to call the duplicator and the interpreter computers. > Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of DATABASE software that > uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981? Hollerith 1890 ? > It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is now commonplace in > databases, although I have to admit that it's a pretty easy mental jump from > a spreadsheet to a row/column display of database idea, so it's more likely > that others came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software! Get a patent, and hold the entire world hostage! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 18 15:24:23 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003301c48561$59d21a80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > To change the machine, I understand that my VAX11/730 loads the CPU > microcode from the TU58 tape at power-on (certainly there's > what looks to > be the WCS RAMs on one of the CPU boards, and I can't find > any microcode > PROMs). Does anyone know how 'general purpose' the 11/730 is > -- can it be > changed into some totally different processor by loading the > right microcode? [snip] > Now, which class does the 11/730 fall into? Is it possible > to, say, write > microcde for the 11/730 to turn it into a PDP8, or a Nova, or > something? I've never written any VAX-11/730 microcode so this is speculation, but there is an article in one of the DEC Technical Journals that describes the MicroVAX II development. Since they were subsetting the architecture, they wanted to try out various options. Since the 730 is completely soft-loaded, they recoded the microcode to look like the proposed DC78032 (uVAX-II chip) and tried out a few variations. So no guarantees, but from the description, I would expect the VAX-11/730 to be able to run as a PDP-11 given sufficient microcode investment. Subject to the usual constraints wrt actual microcode space available. It certainly seems to be capable of replacing existing instructions with stuff that does something entirely different. The VAX-11/780 has WCS (as I'm sure you know) but that only allows you to extend the instruction set. The VAX-11/750 has PCS, which basically allows you to patch the existing microcode to some extent, but this is pretty limited and only intended to fix bugs, not create a new machine. During the initial Alpha development, they recoded the microcode of one of the Polarstar machines (VAX 88x0 class) to behave (in some respects) as an EV4 Alpha box - took days to boot VMS IIRC. I know the NVAX chip has some microcode patch ability but it is completely undocumented (other than its existence) even in the chip spec and my understanding is that it is pretty limited in what it can do. I've never heard of any microcode capability in any of the VAX 6000/VAX 7000 range - but who knows what's hidden in there! I guess everyone knows that Richie Lary was alleged to have cobbled together some PDP-8 microcode for the PDP-11/60, thus producing the world's fastest PDP-8! Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 15:25:55 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: 80 columns (was: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <4123AD87.16672.2EDEBA9F@localhost> References: <41237B8A.4030703@srv.net> <4123AD87.16672.2EDEBA9F@localhost> Message-ID: <20040818132249.N57065@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > Working since some years on mainframes (which are still way > influenced by the 80 column layout of punch cards) I almost "The design of MS-DOS clearly shows that Microsoft considers screens to be a passing fad, and assumes that everybody will soon return to punchcards and paper tape." - Bob Wallace From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 18 15:35:11 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Complete HP1000 F-series system on UK ebay Message-ID: <200408182035.VAA00291@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, I don't normally post such things to mailing lists, but this looks like a nice bit of kit. It's very near me but there's no way I could get it in the house :-( http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5116593901&rd=1 -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 15:40:10 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> References: <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> Message-ID: <20040818133811.Y57065@shell.lmi.net> > > ObClassiccmp: I used gotos all the time in my basic code. Am I now Evil > > Incarnate? ;-) On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > YES! You could have tone the same with gosub and stack modification. > In Applesoft Basic, this would even be supportet by the language. > The POP command just removes one entry from the GOSUB stack :) It is POSSIBLE to write structured code in BASIC. But a REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language. From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Aug 18 16:27:00 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040818122729.V57065@shell.lmi.net> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to> <41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet> <20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net> <14558.195.212.29.83.1092829678.squirrel@server.inet> <20040818122729.V57065@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1092864420.11504.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Wed, 2004-08-18 at 15:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> Why? I've never understood this obsession with cookies. I mean, *why*? > > > Because it is RUDE to store your crap on somebody else's machine, > > > without identifying what is in it. > > Actually they're storing *your* crap on your machine. > > These days, it seems that way too many sites want to store crap, > when there is NO rational reason to do so. Do certain > "web page creation for incompetents" programs have "store a cookie" > as the DEFAULT? Does anyone have a MS FrontPage manual (and is willing to admit it) want to check it out? :-D (No, I couldn't resist.) David From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 18 14:27:33 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <39183.127.0.0.1.1092853196.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> <39183.127.0.0.1.1092853196.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <20040818212733.5052443f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > Sure, the information isn't "delivered to your door" but you can > follow a thread from A to B easily, ignore threads you don't care > about completely and figure out what the latest additions are very > quickly. Ahhh, your MUA doesn't support a threaded view of messages and functions like "Set all messages of thread X to read and skip them."? Time to get a better MUA. I sugest mutt (CLI) and / or sylpheed (X11). > User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 Ohh, well. Some webmail stuff. I wouldn't call that a MUA at all. But this is a question of personal taste. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 17:11:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Gaps in the collection (was Re: rarest computers. ) In-Reply-To: <10408181858.ZM23062@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 18, 4 06:58:20 pm Message-ID: > I wish I'd kept the Ferranti ones I had -- lovely PCBs with alloy > surrounds, carefully wirewrapped. They were TSR2 avionics. Somewhere I have a Ferranti computer module (it's not a PCB). It's an SRBP panel with solder tags riveted to it. At the 'handle end' (the 'handle' is a cutout in the SRBP), there's an aluminum bracket with 3 B9A (9 pin miniature) valvholders on it, which seem to contain double triodes. There are some R's and C's soldered between the tags. It's some simple logic function (maybe a couple of gates, maybe a flip-flop, I am not sure). I was told it was from an Argus, but again I am not sure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 17:00:28 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: <41234AEE.25912.2D5D92A5@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 18, 4 12:26:22 pm Message-ID: > No Tony, you must be completely wrong. As lower as the > energy gets, as more dangerous it is. You know, when Many a true word is spoken in jest :-). In some cases the more 'penetrating' radiation is less dangerous because it passes straight through you. I am told, for example, that it can be much more dangerous to swallow an alpha particle source than a gamma ray source because the alphas are absorbed by bits of your body and do naaty things, although sitting on the bench, the alpha source is the safer, since the radiation is trivial to screen out. Needless to say I have no intention of swallowing either > Well, I had my most memorable moment when I bough my > condo and had it redone. I hired a friend of mine to > supervise it. She's an architect and did quite a lot > of similar jobs. So while we where discussing what to > do, she asked me if I want an 'all off switch' in the > bed room. I think I must have looked quite stupid, so Actaully, if I was planning a workshop from scratch (something I've never had the luxury of doing), I would include an 'all off' switch near the door and make sure everyone in the house knew about it. Not because I am worried about radiation, but in case I connected myself to the mains or something. > she explained that this would be a switch to cut off > power from the outlets and the light, and that a lot > of people doing projects in a similar setting request > that. > > When I argued, that outlets where nothing is plugged > in are already off, and the same goes for the light > (when if I switch it off). She told me that there are > 'experts' telling people that these lines still engulf > you in low frequency radio waves, and only a complete > cut off will help. The normally-sane magazine 'Elektor' had a project that connected between a wall-ward and the mains, and between the wall-wart and its load. The idea was to power up the wall-wart evey 10 seconds or so to see if the load was drawing current. If it was, then leave the supply on, it's needed. If not, turn it off. Yes, it was claimed to reduce radiation from the wall-wart. > Well, I could go on for hours. Somebody really needs to give the public a decent scientific education.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 17:04:06 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 18, 4 01:21:35 pm Message-ID: [...] > > And realy yes, MS gave eMail a bad name, especialy with > their stupid way of quoteing. I mean, can this be called > quoteing at all? Adding the whole mail and just puting > the cursor at the beginning? I get often mails at work > that are the result of 10 or more such actions ... > > Maybe the guy who invented the shit was a huge fan of > HP calculators ... reading previous mails in reverse order. Hey, I resemble that remark! HP calculators are the only ones I use (I must have a few 10's of them now) _becasue_ they're the only ones that do things in a logical order (namely a function is executed when you press the key, there are no hidden pending operations). Infix notation is like M$. It only survives because people are used to it. Once you've learnt something better (prefix or postfix notation), you never go back. -tony From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Aug 18 17:30:04 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <003301c48561$59d21a80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <003301c48561$59d21a80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: At 9:24 PM +0100 8/18/04, Antonio Carlini wrote: >I guess everyone knows that Richie Lary was alleged to >have cobbled together some PDP-8 microcode for the >PDP-11/60, thus producing the world's fastest PDP-8! Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that (part of?) the VAX instruction set was prototyped using the 11/60 as well. John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 17:44:45 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040818154306.F57065@shell.lmi.net> > > do, she asked me if I want an 'all off switch' in the > > bed room. I think I must have looked quite stupid, so > Actaully, if I was planning a workshop from scratch (something I've never > had the luxury of doing), I would include an 'all off' switch near the > door and make sure everyone in the house knew about it. Not because I am > worried about radiation, but in case I connected myself to the mains or > something. A convenience, NOT A SAFETY! , "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with X10. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 18:02:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: <20040818154306.F57065@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 18, 4 03:44:45 pm Message-ID: > A convenience, NOT A SAFETY! , "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with X10. X10 is not at all common in the UK (remember we have 240V, 50Hz mains, so just shipping X10 modules from the states doesn't help), and it's expensive. And if you think I trust electronics in place of contactors, you can't know me very well :-) (quite apart from the fact that contactors are easier to repair!). -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Aug 18 18:19:49 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: <003301c48561$59d21a80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <20040818231949.GA4024@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 03:30:04PM -0700, John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 9:24 PM +0100 8/18/04, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >I guess everyone knows that Richie Lary was alleged to > >have cobbled together some PDP-8 microcode for the > >PDP-11/60, thus producing the world's fastest PDP-8! I heard about that years and years ago, but that's still something I'd like to see personally. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Aug-2004 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66 F (-54.5 C) Windchill -107.1 F (-77.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.8 kts Grid 027 Barometer 664.6 mb (11212. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dan at ekoan.com Wed Aug 18 18:23:42 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Fwd: (1) HP 286/12 & (2) 486's Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040818192156.0518be20@enigma> I received a note from a gentleman in Horseheads, New York, with the following equipment he'd like to dispose of: >(1) HP 286/12 ... working >(1) 486 Leading Edge ... working >(1) 486 ? ... working >(1) Dot Matrix printer ... working Send me an e-mail off-list if you're interested and I'll forward his contact information. Cheers, Dan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 19:39:49 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040818173623.A67860@shell.lmi.net> > > A convenience, NOT A SAFETY! , "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with X10. On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > X10 is not at all common in the UK (remember we have 240V, 50Hz mains, so > just shipping X10 modules from the states doesn't help), and it's expensive. > And if you think I trust electronics in place of contactors, you can't > know me very well :-) (quite apart from the fact that contactors are > easier to repair!). X10 is not suitable for any safety related use. It can not be used reliably for anything where incorrect on/off status would be hazardous. (You use it to turn off all of the lights and selected appliances, NOT to disconnect yourself from the mains!) From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Aug 18 19:26:37 2004 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: TRS 80 Model III mini drive problem... Message-ID: Looking for diagnosis or URL with troubleshooting guide: TRS 80 Model III with two mini drives. Powers up, drives spin and do not stop. Does not attempt read, no red drive light. Cass? and Memory Size? Ok Basic prompt OK. Type in and Run basic progam OK Did not test loading program from tape. Never opened (until yesterday). Seeking help. I have sme experince with basic board work/IC replacem. Could it be U40 or U41? "upper" RAM? Thanks! Bill vintagecomputer.net (coming soon) I have -- E N D -- From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 18 20:27:18 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software References: <200408181212515.SM03168@bobdev> Message-ID: <002501c4858b$abb17a60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > displays data in the row/column metaphor For your database of database metaphors. The 'tab' key on typewriters probably goes back to the turn of the 20th century. It stands for "Tabular" or "make Table" and arranges data in columns. One of the earliest milestones. John A. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 18 20:28:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Vintage computer sighting in This is Spinal Tap Message-ID: I'm not sure this one's been reported before, but I'm watching This is Spinal Tap, and in a short scene where the band is on a tour bus the keyboardist is playing a Missle Command like game on an original TRS-80 Color Computer :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 18 20:53:31 2004 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Vintage computer sighting in This is Spinal Tap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1giq9re.1br14981j40aq4M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm not sure this one's been reported before, but I'm watching This is > Spinal Tap, and in a short scene where the band is on a tour bus the > keyboardist is playing a Missle Command like game on an original TRS-80 > Color Computer :) Polaris! http://nitros9.stg.net/polaris.html -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com From thompson at new.rr.com Wed Aug 18 21:28:30 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Vintage computer sighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm not sure this one's been reported before, but I'm watching This is > Spinal Tap, and in a short scene where the band is on a tour bus the > keyboardist is playing a Missle Command like game on an original TRS-80 > Color Computer :) Has the Siemens System 4004 in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory been mentioned? From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 18 23:36:31 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Morrow Micro Decision Message-ID: <20040818.213631.772.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> In case anyone's interested, I've just listed a Morrow Micro Decision at the VCM: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=1121 Thank you for your attention . . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 18 22:07:35 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about webpage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> And if you think I trust electronics in place of >>> contactors, you can't know me very well :-) (quite apart >>> from the fact that contactors are easier to repair!). >>> >>> -tony Actually I don't trust contractors [change intentional] at all. Too many "electricians" have swapped hot/neutral and messed up the grounds. Always verify EVERYthing. I will admit that I have never tried to repair a contractor, it might be possible, although I think some of them should just be screpped. From joe at barrera.org Wed Aug 18 22:02:45 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about webpage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41241855.6030909@barrera.org> David V. Corbin wrote: > Actually I don't trust contractors [change intentional] at all. Too > many "electricians" have swapped hot/neutral and messed up the > grounds. Always verify EVERYthing. Jeez. That's worthy of a lawsuit, I would think. - Joe From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 18 22:06:33 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: <20040818173623.A67860@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040818173623.A67860@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200408190312.XAA01891@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > X10 is not suitable for any safety related use. Having lived with it for quite a while, I'm not sure it's really suitable for any use. Even counting the trouble of doing so, I'd much rather run class 2 control wiring and use solid-state relays (or even electromechanical relays). Okay, that's a bit of an overstatement, but not by all that much. The only real advantage I see to X10 is that it's something that an electrical-ignorant end-user can use as an aftermarket add-on without too much trouble or risk. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 18 22:12:53 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408190318.XAA01973@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Infix notation is like M$. It only survives because people are used > to it. Once you've learnt something better (prefix or postfix > notation), you never go back. I disagree. Despite having used both prefix and postfix languages and having become thoroughly acquainted with both paradigms, I still often enough use infix notation by choice, such as when doing mathematics on paper, and still use (and even write) calculator programs that use infix notation - despite the additional code hair parsing it entails. I'm not sure why; it's an interesting subject for thought. But I certainly don't "never go back". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 18 22:19:16 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I am told, for example, that it can be much more dangerous to swallow > an alpha particle source than a gamma ray source because the alphas > are absorbed by bits of your body and do naaty things, although > sitting on the bench, the alpha source is the safer, since the > radiation is trivial to screen out. Trivial, as in a few feet of air is often enough. :-) I suspect it also has something to do with the effects. If a gamma ray _is_ absorbed, the nature of the damage it does is different from ditto for an alpha particle (I don't know enough about the details of either to say much more, but I do know they're quite fundamentally different). > The normally-sane magazine 'Elektor' had a project [...] Yes, it was > claimed to reduce radiation from the wall-wart. Which it will. Whether eliminating that radiation (which, I daresay, falls into two main classes - 50 or 60 Hz electromagnetic, and black-body thermal, which latter I think we can ignore) is worth doing is another question entirely. Given how much mains-frequency radiation is flying around, I have trouble taking seriously the idea that eliminating the tiny fraction a wall-wart throws is going to make any difference - and that's even if any of it has any effect, which I don't consider anything like proven, much less that it has any _undesirable_ effect. > Somebody really needs to give the public a decent scientific > education.... Ah, but the problem there is, that requires a public able and willing to accept a decent scientific education. It's extraordinarily difficult to teach people who aren't the least bit interested in learning what you're trying to teach. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 18 22:28:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <200408181409.HAA09908@floodgap.com> References: <200408181409.HAA09908@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200408190332.XAA02089@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Look at ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/screenshot.ppm (or >> .gif [...], or .ppm.gz or .ppm.bz2 [...]) [...]. > % ftp ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca: Operation timed out > ftp> Yeah, I know. :-( Sparkle (the machine currently behind the ftp CNAME) had its disk die some weeks back. I sent it off for warranty repair (which presumably =replacement); the result arrived yesterday. Today sparkle has been dead almsot all day while I copy multiple gigs of data around between backup areas and live drives. (I was running temporarily off another drive of about half the size.) It should be back, and, barring further trouble, will stay that way. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 18 22:42:35 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <20040818212733.5052443f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >>> Ahhh, your MUA doesn't support a threaded view of messages >>> and functions like "Set all messages of thread X to read >>> and skip them."? >>> >>> Time to get a better MUA. I sugest mutt (CLI) and / or >>> sylpheed (X11). >>> Can you recommend a MUA that will properly handle the sequences of replies? By way of explaination. Assume all of the following occurs while you are not connected.... In time order... 1) John sends Original Message 2) Steve Reply To #1 (Original) 3) John Reply to #2 {First Reply) 4) Mike Reply To #2 5) Steve Reply to #4 6) Steve Reply to #3 (With a reference to what he said in #5!) 7) John Reply to #4 Visually See This Arrangement.... John[1] --> Steve[2] -->John[3] --> Steve[6] -->Mike[4] --> Steve[5] --> John[7] From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 18 22:50:15 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <200408190332.XAA02089@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Aug 18, 4 11:28:37 pm" Message-ID: <200408190350.UAA18722@floodgap.com> > > > Look at ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/screenshot.ppm (or > > > .gif [...], or .ppm.gz or .ppm.bz2 [...]) [...]. > > % ftp ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca > > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca: Operation timed out > > ftp> > > Yeah, I know. :-( Sparkle (the machine currently behind the ftp CNAME) > had its disk die some weeks back. I sent it off for warranty repair > (which presumably =replacement); the result arrived yesterday. [...] > It should be back, and, barring further trouble, will stay that way. I just got the image off. Intriguing window manager you have. ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 18 22:57:38 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Power transformer for a Wells Gardner 19V2000 monitor? References: <200408181409.HAA09908@floodgap.com> <200408190332.XAA02089@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <41242532.7040200@tiac.net> Would anyone know where I can find a power transformer for a Wells Gardner 19V2000 X/Y display monotor? This needs 60 VAC center-tapped, and 6.3 V for the CRT heater. According to the spec sheets on line the monitor draws 122 watts, so a 3 amp 60 volt center tapped transformer sounds about right. I don't know what the CRT heater draws however. Did the old Asteroids machines use a single transformer to drive the X/Y display and the logic? Was a single transformer used to drive the deflection amps and CRT heater? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 22:43:54 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: TRS 80 Model III mini drive problem... In-Reply-To: from "Degnan Co." at Aug 18, 4 08:26:37 pm Message-ID: > > Looking for diagnosis or URL with troubleshooting guide: > TRS 80 Model III with two mini drives. > Powers up, drives spin and do not stop. > Does not attempt read, no red drive light. > Cass? and Memory Size? Ok Do you mean you get thje CASS? prompt when you turn the machine on without holding BREAK down? If so, then the machine is not detecting the disk controller (that's why it's not trying to read the disk). I'd check the tapewire that links the CPU board to the disk controller board (I've had a lot of problems with this cable!), then check the signals round the WD1793 chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 23:06:57 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 18, 4 11:19:16 pm Message-ID: > > > I am told, for example, that it can be much more dangerous to swallow > > an alpha particle source than a gamma ray source because the alphas > > are absorbed by bits of your body and do naaty things, although > > sitting on the bench, the alpha source is the safer, since the > > radiation is trivial to screen out. > > Trivial, as in a few feet of air is often enough. :-) Exactly, which also implies that if the alpha source is inside _you_, then few inches of you will screen out the radiation, i.e. the alpha particle will interact with you. > > The normally-sane magazine 'Elektor' had a project [...] Yes, it was > > claimed to reduce radiation from the wall-wart. > > Which it will. True.... > > Whether eliminating that radiation (which, I daresay, falls into two > main classes - 50 or 60 Hz electromagnetic, and black-body thermal, > which latter I think we can ignore) is worth doing is another question > entirely. Given how much mains-frequency radiation is flying around, I Actually, reducing the thermal radiation was mentioned as another benefit, in that it claims said circuit 'saved energy' as well. > have trouble taking seriously the idea that eliminating the tiny > fraction a wall-wart throws is going to make any difference - and > that's even if any of it has any effect, which I don't consider > anything like proven, much less that it has any _undesirable_ effect. Agreed.... I would like to know if there's any statistically significant correlation between health problems and being a radio amateur. The point being that health problems from people who work with electrical/electronic devices could be due to stress or various other causes, but presumably amateurs, who do it for fun, wouldn't suffer from stress when they're messing about with electronics. > > > Somebody really needs to give the public a decent scientific > > education.... > > Ah, but the problem there is, that requires a public able and willing > to accept a decent scientific education. It's extraordinarily > difficult to teach people who aren't the least bit interested in > learning what you're trying to teach. Indeed. This is one reason I have no intention of becoming a schoolteacher. I cna think of nothing worse than trying to teach stuff I know to be incorrect (and a lot of stuff in the UK school syllabus is certainly incorrect!) to people who don't want to learn it. A total waste of time for everyone involved!. However, I am also worried that the general public don't want to learn about scientific subjects. Now admittedly in the current society, scientists are not exactly valued, but this is a different rant... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 23:10:15 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 18, 4 11:07:35 pm Message-ID: > Actually I don't trust contractors [change intentional] at all. Too many > "electricians" have swapped hot/neutral and messed up the grounds. Always > verify EVERYthing. Tell me about it!. I've seen single-pole switches in the neutral wire, live/neutral swaps, neutral/earth swaps (get a couple of extension leads with those 2 faults joined together and you can get the lethal live/earth swap!), under-rated cables, etc, etc, etc. The only person I trust with the mains is myself (and even then I am not sure I trust them!) > > I will admit that I have never tried to repair a contractor, it might be > possible, although I think some of them should just be screpped. Contactors, on the other hand, are easy to repair. Often repair kits (new contacts, new coil, etc) are available. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 18 23:31:11 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200408182331.11712.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 18 August 2004 22:19, der Mouse wrote: > I suspect it also has something to do with the effects. If a gamma > ray _is_ absorbed, the nature of the damage it does is different from > ditto for an alpha particle (I don't know enough about the details of > either to say much more, but I do know they're quite fundamentally > different). The effects are quite the same... they're both ionizing radiation, so the effect is that the radiation particle knocks free some electrons, and turns something into an ion. That's what the damaging effects are from...ionizing atoms that are in proteins, for example, tends to break them apart. The main difference is that gamma radiation, being electromagnetic waves can travel farther through/into objects before striking something and dumping their energy (and ionizing the atom). Alpha radiation tends to travel a shorter distance before striking something because of its MUCH larger mass (essentially ionized helium), and its inherent positive charge. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 19 00:01:33 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Tell me about it!. I've seen single-pole switches in the >>> neutral wire, live/neutral swaps, neutral/earth swaps (get >>> a couple of extension leads with those 2 faults joined >>> together and you can get the lethal live/earth swap!), >>> under-rated cables, etc, etc, etc. The only person I trust >>> with the mains is myself (and even then I am not sure I trust them!) Just one of the reasons it is a violation of most "safety codes" to plug an extension cord into an extension cord! OSHA will fine a company if this is reported. [The last time I did that was about 7 hours ago.....] From ohh at drizzle.com Wed Aug 18 23:59:17 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Power transformer for a Wells Gardner 19V2000 monitor? In-Reply-To: <41242532.7040200@tiac.net> Message-ID: Bob Shannon wrote, in part: > Would anyone know where I can find a power transformer for a Wells > Gardner 19V2000 X/Y display monotor? The last time I needed one, I had it custom-wound. But that was quite a while ago, and indeed for an X/Y prototype. :) Is your monitor from a video arcade game? If so, the simplest method would probably be to find a coin-op distributor-and-repair place and buy one from them. If you look at the list at http://www.pinball.com/dist.html you should be able to find something near you... these are listed as Williams and Bally distributors, but they're likely to have access to Atari parts as well. [...] > Did the old Asteroids machines use a single transformer to drive the X/Y > display and the logic? Was a single transformer used to drive the > deflection amps and CRT heater? Not 100% positive about Atari machines, but I'm very confident the answer will be yes. Most of the coin-op manufacturers used a single transformer for each unit, and it drove everything - monitor, monitor heater, +5/+12/+27/-5 power supplies, lamps and lockout mechanisms on the coin door, and the fluourescent lamp and ballast on the sign atop the unit - as well as jumpers at the input end for 110/220 VAC input voltages and further jumpers for compensating for high-end or low-end line voltages. Them transformers were big heavy bastards. :) It was a pretty standard practice, so I'd be surprised if Atari didn't do it as well. If you can find an appropriate transformer for your monitor, you should be able to run lots of other goodies off of it at the same time. :) Hope this helps! -O.- (who's wondering now if I still have all those old coin-op video-game schematics lying around here somewhere...) From tomhudson at execpc.com Thu Aug 19 00:09:36 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:19 2005 Subject: Power transformer for a Wells Gardner 19V2000 monitor? In-Reply-To: <41242532.7040200@tiac.net> References: <200408181409.HAA09908@floodgap.com> <200408190332.XAA02089@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <41242532.7040200@tiac.net> Message-ID: <41243610.3060308@execpc.com> You might check with the guys at quarterarcade.com, they do restoration on arcade units including X/Y monitor units (I bought a "Tempest" unit from them). Good luck! -Tom Bob Shannon wrote: > Would anyone know where I can find a power transformer for a Wells > Gardner 19V2000 X/Y > display monotor? > > This needs 60 VAC center-tapped, and 6.3 V for the CRT heater. > According to the spec sheets on > line the monitor draws 122 watts, so a 3 amp 60 volt center tapped > transformer sounds about right. > > I don't know what the CRT heater draws however. > > Did the old Asteroids machines use a single transformer to drive the > X/Y display and the logic? > Was a single transformer used to drive the deflection amps and CRT > heater? > > > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 19 01:25:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Vintage computer sighting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > I'm not sure this one's been reported before, but I'm watching This is > > Spinal Tap, and in a short scene where the band is on a tour bus the > > keyboardist is playing a Missle Command like game on an original TRS-80 > > Color Computer :) > > Has the Siemens System 4004 in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory been > mentioned? Yep...we talked about it a couple months ago when I happened to catch that part while flipping channels. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 19 01:37:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > I would like to know if there's any statistically significant correlation > between health problems and being a radio amateur. The point being that > health problems from people who work with electrical/electronic devices > could be due to stress or various other causes, but presumably amateurs, > who do it for fun, wouldn't suffer from stress when they're messing about > with electronics. One of the oldest engineers I know has worked around systems that measure radiation in humans nearly all his adult life (that doesn't necessarily put him at any extra risk of exposure) and he's in his 80s going very strong. One of the older (though not oldest) who's worked around all sort of electronics and electromagnetic radiating gear is on this list and seems alive and kicking every time he visits (though he huffs and puffs when schlepping stuff around, but I think this is an act to make me feel sorry for him ;) I think some people just have good genes, or are lucky, or are lucky to have good genes. Others, not so lucky. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 19 02:28:53 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: References: <20040818212733.5052443f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20040819092853.6496ba2b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:42:35 -0400 "David V. Corbin" wrote: > Visually See This Arrangement.... > > John[1] --> Steve[2] -->John[3] --> Steve[6] > -->Mike[4] --> Steve[5] > --> John[7] That is what sylpheed and every other well writen MUA does. Have a look at http://sylpheed.good-day.net/#screenshot -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at spies.com Thu Aug 19 02:54:25 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Power transformer for a Wells Gardner 19V2000 monitor? Message-ID: <20040819075425.6DF7E3CFE@spies.com> your best bet is to find the entire Atari power supply chassis assembly with the transformer, and the power supply pcb that goes along with it. they show up on eBay, or you can try Scott Evans (thomas43@aol.com) who should have a set. d From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 19 04:01:01 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: References: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040819094732.052df1d8@pop.freeserve.net> At 05:06 19/08/2004, Tony Duell wrote: >I would like to know if there's any statistically significant correlation >between health problems and being a radio amateur. The point being that >health problems from people who work with electrical/electronic devices >could be due to stress or various other causes, but presumably amateurs, >who do it for fun, wouldn't suffer from stress when they're messing about >with electronics. Well, from my time in the early 80's, when my sister was a big CB user and I was sat there on my BBC Micro... there were times when I could hear her voice coming out of my floppy drive if it was spinning at the same time she was transmitting. That was certainly a cause of stress (plus being slightly on topic!) Luckily I never seemed to get a read error :-) > > > > Ah, but the problem there is, that requires a public able and willing > > to accept a decent scientific education. It's extraordinarily > > difficult to teach people who aren't the least bit interested in > > learning what you're trying to teach. > >Indeed. This is one reason I have no intention of becoming a >schoolteacher. I cna think of nothing worse than trying to teach stuff I >know to be incorrect (and a lot of stuff in the UK school syllabus is >certainly incorrect!) to people who don't want to learn it. A total waste >of time for everyone involved!. There is an interesting discussion of this phenomena (teaching incorrect information) in the book "the science of discworld" where it is rather bluntly entitled "Lies to children". thefreedictionary.com sums this up quite nicely: "A lie-to-children is an expression that describes a form of simplification of material. The universe, so far as we can observe, is extremely complicated. The first time one explains something to a person (especially a child), one might give an explanation that is simple, concise, or simply "wrong" ? but in a way that attempts to make the truth more understandable. (Sometimes, an explanation can accompany it, such as "This isn't technically true, but it's easier to understand.") Later on, one can admit that the first explanation was a lie, and replace it with the truth, or a more sophisticated lie-to-children, which is nearer to the truth. You can continue this process all through a persons' education." Examples given also include the answer to the question "what makes a rainbow?" - schools go to great lengths to distract kids with prisms and so forth to show all the colours in light as it shines through something, when none of it has anything to do with why a rainbow is bent into an arc, why the sun is behind you when you see the colours in front of you, why you sometimes see two rainbows, etc... An excellent read; I'd definitely recommend it. >However, I am also worried that the general public don't want to learn >about scientific subjects. Most people don't want to learn about anything, unless it has boobs or kicks footballs... :-S From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 05:40:03 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: OFF and education In-Reply-To: References: <41234AEE.25912.2D5D92A5@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 18, 4 12:26:22 pm Message-ID: <41249FA3.3365.3290757E@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 23:00 meinte Tony Duell: > > No Tony, you must be completely wrong. As lower as the > > energy gets, as more dangerous it is. You know, when > Many a true word is spoken in jest :-). In some cases the more > 'penetrating' radiation is less dangerous because it passes straight > through you. I am told, for example, that it can be much more dangerous to > swallow an alpha particle source than a gamma ray source because the > alphas are absorbed by bits of your body and do naaty things, although > sitting on the bench, the alpha source is the safer, since the radiation > is trivial to screen out. Needless to say I have no intention of swallowing > either I like that example. > > she asked me if I want an 'all off switch' in the > > bed room. I think I must have looked quite stupid, > Actaully, if I was planning a workshop from scratch (something I've never > had the luxury of doing), I would include an 'all off' switch near the > door and make sure everyone in the house knew about it. Not because I am > worried about radiation, but in case I connected myself to the mains or > something. Jup, that's exactly why I incooperated one of these nice big red mushrooms into my computerroom. Ok, it is only disconecting all outlets on the workbench wall, but that are the ones I'm concerned about. > > Well, I could go on for hours. > Somebody really needs to give the public a decent > scientific education.... Speaking of that, there was a somewhat nice what-if documentation lately on one of the channels. The idea was that there's an alien signal found and then along the decodeing it is revealed that roswell was not about a UFO landing, but rhater that they already got a first signal back then. Now, according to this fictional story the US government started an educational offensive to teach science to the people to prepare them for the truth ... just to 'learn' that more knowledge makes the public even more frightened... What an aristocratic view. Made without any hint of irony. It must have been a perfect reasoning for the writer of that show. I mean, we all know that the US is still stuck in a mindset like in 18th century aristocratic Europe (aka the hard time to distinguish between the buerocracy, the state and the rulers in every day language, and of course the all over attitute of 'He'st he President, so he's right, and we have to support him) - hey,we all like that to some extend, but such a reasoning, does underline that mindset in an unbeatable way ... the paupers shall know need to know, otherwise it would destroy their puny minds... Anyway H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 05:46:26 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: <20040818154306.F57065@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <4124A122.2979.32964E52@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 15:44 meinte Fred Cisin: > > > do, she asked me if I want an 'all off switch' in the > > > bed room. I think I must have looked quite stupid, so > > Actaully, if I was planning a workshop from scratch (something I've never > > had the luxury of doing), I would include an 'all off' switch near the > > door and make sure everyone in the house knew about it. Not because I am > > worried about radiation, but in case I connected myself to the mains or > > something. > A convenience, NOT A SAFETY! , "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with X10. Fred, I beg to differ. For a workplace, an ALL-OFF switch is a safty measure, and for professional setings a must, at least by German work laws. And while electronic devices are a great help to measure unsafe conditions, the OFF function itself has to be provided by a classic real pair of contacts. Even more, such a switch must have it's prefered position in OFF (the position it may switch into with the least effort) and must have some protection against unwilling turning on, which must be at least some resistive force. For example, the red mushroom I have has to be turned about 90 degree and then pulled to be tunred on, while it needs just a little push to turn it of and lock it. Not a convineance, a security measure. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 05:49:15 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about webpage In-Reply-To: <41241855.6030909@barrera.org> References: Message-ID: <4124A1CB.6611.3298E42F@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 20:02 meinte Joseph S. Barrera III: > David V. Corbin wrote: > > Actually I don't trust contractors [change intentional] at all. Too > > many "electricians" have swapped hot/neutral and messed up the > > grounds. Always verify EVERYthing. > Jeez. That's worthy of a lawsuit, I would think. Did already winn one :) Thanks to the fact that I'm a certified Energieanlagenelektroniker (literaly power electronics equipment engeneer), I even could testify for myself, and avoidde that some crappy expert plays down the impact :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 19 06:10:58 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: floptical drives Message-ID: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> Hmm, my first ever floptical drive just landed on the doorstep amongst a pile of hardware. Never seen one before now, and it seems there's very little info on the web about the technology. I assume that although it'll (probably) read/write normal 3.5" floppy disks, it needs special media to reach the 21MB that I keep on seeing quoted in various places? (i.e. it can't reach that figure combining the optical tracking technology that it uses with standard magnetic media) (the drive's an Insite I 325VM, likely culled from an SGI I think) cheers Jules From bert at brothom.nl Thu Aug 19 07:15:56 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Complete HP1000 F-series system on UK ebay References: <200408182035.VAA00291@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <412499FC.9A3D9ED@brothom.nl> Stan Barr wrote: > > Hi, > > I don't normally post such things to mailing lists, but this looks > like a nice bit of kit. It's very near me but there's no way I > could get it in the house :-( Thanks! I have the space for it, I can arrange a van and its probably doable in one day from Holland to pick it up. I only have a bit of a lack of time currently. Bert From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 06:25:37 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: The universe In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040819094732.052df1d8@pop.freeserve.net> References: Message-ID: <4124AA51.32320.32BA2CF0@localhost> Am 19 Aug 2004 10:01 meinte Rob O'Donnell: > There is an interesting discussion of this phenomena (teaching incorrect > information) in the book "the science of discworld" where it is rather > bluntly entitled "Lies to children". thefreedictionary.com sums this up > quite nicely: > "A lie-to-children is an expression that describes a form of simplification > of material. The universe, so far as we can observe, is extremely > complicated. The first time one explains something to a person (especially > a child), one might give an explanation that is simple, concise, or simply > "wrong" but in a way that attempts to make the truth more understandable. > (Sometimes, an explanation can accompany it, such as "This isn't > technically true, but it's easier to understand.") I might differ here. The universe is first of all empty and simple. An it likes to stay that way (called entropy) there are only a few local fluctuations where this principle is violated, and still there it's simple ... just a lot of simple things commong together, forming some complex structure. It's like LEGO. Let's be serious, 99% of all Lego briks exist in unstructured piles. Only if put together the form complex structures unimaginable if you just look at a single brick. And Legoland is to these unstructured briks at every childs home the same than the human brain compared to the universe :) And no, I'm not talking (easy) creationism here, since even simple structures can form (according to again simple laws) local fluctuations that are hard to imagine if you don't see them yourself. So, the universe is empty and simple. > Examples given also include the answer to the question "what makes a > rainbow?" - schools go to great lengths to distract kids with prisms and so > forth to show all the colours in light as it shines through something, when > none of it has anything to do with why a rainbow is bent into an arc, why > the sun is behind you when you see the colours in front of you, why you > sometimes see two rainbows, etc... Must have been at the wrong school. They started wit the reflection and the drops and then added the prisma for the colours ... I guess everybody in class did understand fast. That is to me the difference between, what I call everyday (or case based) science, and 'classic' science. While the classic aproach is to tell all the basics first in all depth, case based sciens uses a certain every day aspect and then shows that it's based on simple things, which after that gets explained in detail. > Most people don't want to learn about anything, unless it has boobs This is why I always founf feemale science teachers so interesting :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 06:25:36 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: <200408182331.11712.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4124AA50.26688.32BA2C24@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 23:31 meinte Patrick Finnegan: > On Wednesday 18 August 2004 22:19, der Mouse wrote: > > I suspect it also has something to do with the effects. If a gamma > > ray _is_ absorbed, the nature of the damage it does is different from > > ditto for an alpha particle (I don't know enough about the details of > > either to say much more, but I do know they're quite fundamentally > > different). > The main difference is that gamma radiation, being electromagnetic waves > can travel farther through/into objects before striking something and > dumping their energy (and ionizing the atom). Alpha radiation tends to > travel a shorter distance before striking something because of its MUCH > larger mass (essentially ionized helium), and its inherent positive > charge. Thinking of that, tTony might have been wron in his general assumption that weak _may_ be more dangerous... I remember some lessons about how Alpha particles are already cought to most extend by the uppermost two skin layers so and therfore, if not taken in exteme doses, can be ignored because of the continous sheding we do. Now, if you swallow it, the nature works different. Of course, again the particles get stoped withing a short distance. The atoms/molecules that stop it may get later on absorbed and cause a few problems. Still, we also have protection on the inside. It get's realy tricky if the alpa emiter is some element or part of a molecule that oir digestive system allows to pass thru ... then it get's full 'access'. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 06:25:37 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Education (Was radiation) In-Reply-To: <200408190328.XAA02045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: Message-ID: <4124AA51.12722.32BA2D7C@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 23:19 meinte der Mouse: > > Somebody really needs to give the public a decent scientific > > education.... > Ah, but the problem there is, that requires a public able and willing > to accept a decent scientific education. It's extraordinarily > difficult to teach people who aren't the least bit interested in > learning what you're trying to teach. Now, to my findings, Science is as interesting as literature or history, or whatever. Every pupil will have some topics they don't like. At least for what I have seen, most are interested in every day (and beyond) sciencetific and technical education. It's rather the schools who spread and support the myth. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 06:51:31 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Education (Was radiation) Message-ID: <28016009.1092916292279.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> my experience has been... 1% of the people really like science 1% don't mind listening to science and can actually learn something 1% will listen but retain nothing now for the gender split... 50% of the males in the remaining 97% are thinking about what the are going to eat for dinner and the remaining 50% are wondering who they are going to sleep with next 50% of the females in the remaining 97% are thinking about their makeup and the remaining 50% are trying to reduce, change, enlarge their physical appearance. best regards, Steve Thatcher From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 19 07:17:28 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040818122729.V57065@shell.lmi.net> References: <412125D3.65468DEF@compsys.to><41379.192.168.1.10.1092733620.squirrel@server.inet><20040817154728.W41611@shell.lmi.net><14558.195.212.29.83.1092829678.squirrel@server.inet> <20040818122729.V57065@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <28319.195.212.29.83.1092917848.squirrel@server.inet> Fred Cisin said: >> > BTW, have you ever replaced the brake master cylinder on one? >> Yes. Very recently, in fact. The scratches in my forearm are still > Wasn't the finest example of service accessibility! > It's been 30 years since I did one. The guy who designed that particular system went on to work for Citroen. In particular, he designed the fuel system for the Citroen XM 2 litre fuel-injected models, with the filter mounted on top of the rear subframe, completely inaccessible without either removing the exhaust, or the whole rear subframe. If you take off the spare wheel carrier, and jack the rear of the car at least 3' off the ground *and* you've got long arms, you can reach over the top of the back silencer box and remove it. The filter *cannot* be depressurised, so it will spray petrol right into the scratches in your arms when you remove the pipes. He also designed the placement of the suspension centre spheres, the ones that switch in and out under control of the ECU. They need replaced every two years. If this is not done, the steel sphere welds itself to the aluminium valve block. Removal involves taking the exhaust off for the rear one (again! do the fuel filter while you're in there) and partially removing the engine (undo the mountings, jack the car up 2' in the air, then lift the engine up and forwards a little) to get the front one off... Gordon. From lists at microvax.org Thu Aug 19 07:33:00 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00b701c485e8$abdc39a0$0a00a8c0@coffee> Hi all Does anybody in the UK have an Infoserver that they could lend to me so that I can get VMS onto a few machines around here? Failing that, has anybody taken an image of the ROMs in an IS100/150 - i'd quite like to try making a uVAX3100 think it's an Infoserver... Cheers alex/melt From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 19 08:07:29 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Complete HP1000 F-series system on UK ebay References: <200408182035.VAA00291@citadel.metropolis.local> <412499FC.9A3D9ED@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <010301c485ed$7b360e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I had posted this one to the list a while ago. Very nice system! The HSFCA memory isn't that common, great stuff. And the 7925... well... that one is just plain gorgeous :) Congrats! Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Complete HP1000 F-series system on UK ebay > > > Stan Barr wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I don't normally post such things to mailing lists, but this looks > > like a nice bit of kit. It's very near me but there's no way I > > could get it in the house :-( > > Thanks! I have the space for it, I can arrange a van and its probably > doable in one day from Holland to pick it up. I only have a bit of a > lack of time currently. > > Bert > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 09:41:57 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: <412357DF.29572.2D901F80@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 18, 4 01:21:35 pm Message-ID: <4124D855.14278.336DEE55@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 23:04 meinte Tony Duell: > [...] > > And realy yes, MS gave eMail a bad name, especialy with > > their stupid way of quoteing. I mean, can this be called > > quoteing at all? Adding the whole mail and just puting > > the cursor at the beginning? I get often mails at work > > that are the result of 10 or more such actions ... > > Maybe the guy who invented the shit was a huge fan of > > HP calculators ... reading previous mails in reverse order. > Hey, I resemble that remark! No you don't. You can, at least differentiate between various uses (at least you seam to me like someone able to do so). > HP calculators are the only ones I use (I must have a few 10's of them > now) _becasue_ they're the only ones that do things in a logical order > (namely a function is executed when you press the key, there are no hidden > pending operations). Jup, they are great. And no, I didn't want to compare UPN with MS, I just tried to find a single reason why MS is doing the default quotation the way it does. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 09:43:17 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Vintage computer sighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4124D8A5.16463.336F25FA@localhost> Am 18 Aug 2004 21:28 meinte Paul Thompson: > > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > I'm not sure this one's been reported before, but I'm watching This is > > Spinal Tap, and in a short scene where the band is on a tour bus the > > keyboardist is playing a Missle Command like game on an original TRS-80 > > Color Computer :) > > Has the Siemens System 4004 in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory been > mentioned? are you shure it's a 4004? mot a 303? -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 19 10:09:33 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4124D855.14278.336DEE55@localhost> Message-ID: >>> Jup, they are great. And no, I didn't want to compare UPN >>> with MS, I just tried to find a single reason why MS is >>> doing the default quotation the way it does. Consider paper inter-office mail. If a person is goinf to reply/forward a printed message, they will often [at least in the old days], type up a page with their information [anyone have a Royal Typewriter handy], and attach the original [or a copy] BEHIND it...... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 19 10:31:27 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: E-Mail Quoting... In-Reply-To: <20040819092853.6496ba2b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >>> > Visually See This Arrangement.... >>> > >>> > John[1] --> Steve[2] -->John[3] --> Steve[6] >>> > -->Mike[4] --> Steve[5] >>> > --> John[7] >>> That is what sylpheed and every other well writen MUA does. >>> Have a look at http://sylpheed.good-day.net/#screenshot >>> -- >>> Thanks I will look into it.... From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 19 12:11:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: The universe In-Reply-To: <4124AA51.32320.32BA2CF0@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > Most people don't want to learn about anything, unless it has boobs > > This is why I always founf feemale science teachers so interesting :) Mmmmm. 8th grade. Mrs. Doll. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 19 12:17:50 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: <4124A122.2979.32964E52@localhost> References: <4124A122.2979.32964E52@localhost> Message-ID: <20040819101402.V78985@shell.lmi.net> > > A convenience, NOT A SAFETY! , "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with X10. On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > Fred, I beg to differ. > For a workplace, an ALL-OFF switch is a safty measure, and THAT is why I explicitly recommended X10 for CONVENIENCE, BUT NOT FOR SAFETY. Howzbout: A CONVENIENCE "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with x10; it is NOT SUITABLE for SAFETY. Sorry that what I wrote was misinterpreted. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Aug 19 12:19:28 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers Message-ID: <0408191719.AA05510@ivan.Harhan.ORG> meltie wrote: > Failing that, has anybody taken an image of the ROMs in an IS100/150 - i'd > quite like to try making a uVAX3100 think it's an Infoserver... To my knowledge there are no special ROMs in an InfoServer other than the standard MV3100 console ROM, and it's what lives on its boot disk that makes it an InfoServer. MS From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 19 12:20:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Jup, they are great. And no, I didn't want to compare UPN > >>> with MS, I just tried to find a single reason why MS is > >>> doing the default quotation the way it does. > > Consider paper inter-office mail. If a person is goinf to reply/forward a > printed message, they will often [at least in the old days], type up a page > with their information [anyone have a Royal Typewriter handy], and attach > the original [or a copy] BEHIND it...... That's because they didn't have computers back then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 19 12:23:18 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: floptical drives In-Reply-To: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040819101904.J78985@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, my first ever floptical drive just landed on the doorstep amongst a > pile of hardware. Never seen one before now, and it seems there's very > little info on the web about the technology. It didn't exactly take over the market. > I assume that although it'll (probably) read/write normal 3.5" floppy that's right Almost all floptical drives could also handle "720k" and 1.4M" None could also handle "2.8M" > disks, it needs special media to reach the 21MB that I keep on seeing also right > quoted in various places? (i.e. it can't reach that figure combining the > optical tracking technology that it uses with standard magnetic media) > (the drive's an Insite I 325VM, likely culled from an SGI I think) They are SCSI drives; software/drivers should be readily available From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 19 12:28:47 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: floptical drives In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "floptical drives" (Aug 19, 11:10) References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10408191828.ZM24475@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 19 2004, 11:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hmm, my first ever floptical drive just landed on the doorstep amongst a > pile of hardware. Never seen one before now, and it seems there's very > little info on the web about the technology. > > I assume that although it'll (probably) read/write normal 3.5" floppy > disks, it needs special media to reach the 21MB that I keep on seeing > quoted in various places? (i.e. it can't reach that figure combining the > optical tracking technology that it uses with standard magnetic media) > > (the drive's an Insite I 325VM, likely culled from an SGI I think) Yes, it will read normal 3.5" floppies (at least HD and possibly DD), and yes it needs special floptical media to do 20MB. Good luck finding the media. I have some but I'm keeping it for my flopticals. Do keep the drive clean. My experience is that they're vey prone to dying (and trashing disks) if they get too dusty. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 19 12:50:20 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c48614$fef47cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that > (part of?) the VAX instruction set was prototyped using the 11/60 as > well. I believe that there were hardware test rigs in use before the first VAX protos arrived. I believe that I've read that they were based on a modified PDP-11 but I don't recall where I read that. Time to go peruse the early DTJs again I suppose. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 19 12:57:20 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers In-Reply-To: <00b701c485e8$abdc39a0$0a00a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: <001501c48615$f90fbd50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Does anybody in the UK have an Infoserver that they could > lend to me so that I can get VMS onto a few machines around here? I think Fred has advertised some code that allows a Unix box to perform the functions of an InfoServer. I doubt you'll get a better offer unless you pin down the location a little better :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 19 12:58:40 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers In-Reply-To: <0408191719.AA05510@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Aug 19, 2004 05:19:28 PM Message-ID: <200408191758.i7JHwfRw018151@onyx.spiritone.com> > To my knowledge there are no special ROMs in an InfoServer other than > the standard MV3100 console ROM, and it's what lives on its boot disk > that makes it an InfoServer. > > MS I'm possitive that they have different ROM's, and that there is one other slight HW difference. IIRC, I've heard of people putting MicroVAX/VAXstation ROM's in a InfoServer. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 19 13:00:21 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers In-Reply-To: <0408191719.AA05510@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <001601c48616$66adb880$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > To my knowledge there are no special ROMs in an InfoServer other than > the standard MV3100 console ROM, and it's what lives on its boot disk > that makes it an InfoServer. I know that InfoServer code can be booted on either a uV3100 or a VS3100 (or maybe both, I forget the exact details) but there's some setting of bits that needs to be done at the console (I've forgotten these details too ...). Without the bit setting, the code will not run on a non-InfoServer box. So I suspect that the ROMs are different (at least to the extent of having a different SIDEX burned in there) since that would be the easiest way of detecting the box type. Later InfoServers moved away from the KA41/KA42 platform, so things may be different on later software versions. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 19 13:09:46 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page access) In-Reply-To: <20040819101402.V78985@shell.lmi.net> References: <4124A122.2979.32964E52@localhost> Message-ID: <4125090A.3844.342C318C@localhost> Am 19 Aug 2004 10:17 meinte Fred Cisin: > > > A convenience, NOT A SAFETY! , "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with X10. > On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > Fred, I beg to differ. > > For a workplace, an ALL-OFF switch is a safty measure, and > THAT is why I explicitly recommended X10 for CONVENIENCE, > BUT NOT FOR SAFETY. > Howzbout: > A CONVENIENCE "All-OFF" is trivial to implement with x10; > it is NOT SUITABLE for SAFETY. > Sorry that what I wrote was misinterpreted. Ey, always blame it on my bad english that I missunderstood you. :) And more important, on me answering a mail, before reading all others in a thread! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From lists at microvax.org Thu Aug 19 13:26:35 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers References: <001601c48616$66adb880$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <00ea01c4861a$11af2860$0a00a8c0@coffee> > > To my knowledge there are no special ROMs in an InfoServer other than > > the standard MV3100 console ROM, and it's what lives on its boot disk > > that makes it an InfoServer. > > I know that InfoServer code can be booted on either a uV3100 or > a VS3100 (or maybe both, I forget the exact details) but there's > some setting of bits that needs to be done at the console (I've > forgotten these details too ...). Without the bit setting, the > code will not run on a non-InfoServer box. You've told me this before and I had a good dig around trying to jog people's memories about it, but came up with no joy :( > I think Fred has advertised some code that allows > a Unix box to perform the functions of an > InfoServer. OpenLAST? I know he has - I did contact him about beta-testing it for him but I got no reply so assumed that he'd already got enough volunteers to test for him. alex/melt From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 19 13:36:38 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 References: <001401c48614$fef47cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <16676.62262.428280.75900@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: >> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that >> (part of?) the VAX instruction set was prototyped using the 11/60 >> as well. That seems improbable -- the VAX instruction set is clearly inspired by the PDP11, but at the bit level they are completely different. I rather doubt that more than a few percent of the VAX instruction set would fit into an 11/60 WCS. Antonio> I believe that there were hardware test rigs in use before Antonio> the first VAX protos arrived. I believe that I've read that Antonio> they were based on a modified PDP-11 but I don't recall Antonio> where I read that. Time to go peruse the early DTJs again I Antonio> suppose. Software emulation? That's how initialy PDP11 development was done (MIMIC on the PDP10). paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 19 14:43:20 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: floptical drives In-Reply-To: <10408191828.ZM24475@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> <10408191828.ZM24475@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1092944600.25931.126.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 17:28, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Good luck finding the media. I have some but I'm keeping > it for my flopticals. It's a funny old world and all that. This afternoon I went to pick up a few stray bits of hardware from someone, and without my mentioning it first, they happened to say that they thought they had a floptical drive and some media going spare. Always amazes me how often things like that happen. I'll let the list know if it does pan out, as the main reason I'd hang onto the drive I've got is in case I ever find any floptical media that I need to read; I'm not going to actually use the drive otherwise. So there may be media spare sometime soon for anyone who needs it... > Do keep the drive clean. My experience is that they're vey > prone to dying (and trashing disks) if they get too dusty. Ta for the tip. This one's really grubby; I think it's just sat in a loft for most of its life. cheers Jules From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 16:07:02 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Wanted: IBM Convetible (5140) "Application Selector" software Message-ID: <20040819210702.7794.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have the "Application Selector" software for the IBM 5140 Convertible computer? It used to be on the IBM website for download, but no longer. Thanks- Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Aug 19 17:56:16 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Monitor Resolutions... In-Reply-To: <200408190350.UAA18722@floodgap.com> References: <200408190350.UAA18722@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7e3020e14c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200408190350.UAA18722@floodgap.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I just got the image off. Intriguing window manager you have. ^^ Just what I was thinking. Here's a screenshot from my RISC PC: ... 1152x864 in 16 million colours at 75Hz on a RISC PC600. Specs are: Acorn RiscPC600 Mk.III mainboard 202MHz StrongARM SA-110 64MB RAM 6GB Seagate hard drive Lite-ON 52x CD-ROM drive Original Acorn (actually made by Citizen) 1.6MB 3.5" floppy drive Windfall Engineering Viewfinder graphics card i-Cubed/Design IT EtherLAN600 10BaseT Ethernet card APDL ARCINv6c high speed IDE/ATA interface Morley Electronics 16-bit Uncached SCSI interface (with no devices for it *sniff*) HCCS Vision24 video framegrabber with colour decoding Second case slice upgrade 100W power supply upgrade 4-slot backplane Manufactured in 1996, though IIRC the first RiscPC rolled off the production line in 1994, so it's sort-of on topic. Me, I just think it's a nice machine :) Note the machine's LAN name (and hard drive volume label) - Kitsune - it's Japanese; it translates to "fox", hence the Pinboard backdrop image (for those of you who don't know the RISC OS terminology - think "background wallpaper"). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... When I get a better mouse trap built, mice will be an endangered species. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 19 18:37:03 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: floptical drives References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> <10408191828.ZM24475@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001801c48645$6eb7ef30$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:28 PM Subject: Re: floptical drives > Do keep the drive clean. My experience is that they're vey prone to > dying (and trashing disks) if they get too dusty. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Can you use a standard PC floppy cleaning disk (with alcohol) to clean a floptical drive? I have a few LS-120's that get dusty from case fans that suck air through them. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 18:02:43 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 19, 4 01:01:33 am Message-ID: > Just one of the reasons it is a violation of most "safety codes" to plug an > extension cord into an extension cord! Typical!. Prevent something that can actually be quite useful because it's possible for it to be dangerous if the devices (i.e. the extension cables) are mis-constructed. Don't actually deal with the real problem, namely getting extension cables made properly in the first place. Incidentally, I never buy read-made extension cables, I always make my own. It's the only way to be sure they're made properly. (Oh, and don't get me started on moulded mains plugs. Suffice it to say I cut those off and replace them with proper plugs as soon as I get the device!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 18:15:52 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040819094732.052df1d8@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Aug 19, 4 10:01:01 am Message-ID: > There is an interesting discussion of this phenomena (teaching incorrect=20 > information) in the book "the science of discworld" where it is rather=20 > bluntly entitled "Lies to children". thefreedictionary.com sums this up=20 > quite nicely: > > "A lie-to-children is an expression that describes a form of simplificati= > on=20 > of material. The universe, so far as we can observe, is extremely=20 > complicated. The first time one explains something to a person (especiall= > y=20 > a child), one might give an explanation that is simple, concise, or simpl= > y=20 > "wrong" =97 but in a way that attempts to make the truth more understanda= > ble.=20 > (Sometimes, an explanation can accompany it, such as "This isn't=20 > technically true, but it's easier to understand.") > > Later on, one can admit that the first explanation was a lie, and replace= > =20 > it with the truth, or a more sophisticated lie-to-children, which is near= > er=20 > to the truth. You can continue this process all through a persons' educat= > ion." This has never helped me... In fact on several occasions the 'simplified version' has caused me more confusion. One classic example is the operation of telephone exchanges. I am interested in such devices (not for Phreaking, of course, but just becasue they're complicated electromechanical systems). I read several of the 'how it works' type books and got nowhere. In fact I was coming to the conclusion that the telephone exchange was too complicated for me to underatand. Then I got a wonderful two-volume set called 'Telephony'. It contains complete schematics of real (albeit small) exchanges, and explains what each relay does, when it pulls in, when it releases, etc. It all made perfect sense then, and I understood it. Sure the 1000 pages or so are heavt going, but it was worth it. Reading the simpler books did me no good at all, and I fail to see how anyone would beenfit from them. To get back to schools, I am not moaning about, say, teaching Newtonian mechanics. I know it's incomplete, and doesn't describe how the universe hehaves (actually, I suspect that relativistic quantum mechanics is not a complete description either). But Newtonian mechanics is understandable, it is self-consistent (it just doesn't 'agree' with the real world), and it's a perfectly adequate model for normal-sized objects moving at normal speeds. If I was going to analyse the behaviour of, say, an RK05 head positioner (to keep this on-topic), then I would use Newtonian mechanics, and would expect the results to agree to the accuracy I could measure things. No, I am complaing about things like : 'A compariston is not a measurement' (said to me when I wanted to use a bridge circuit to measure capacitance). Actually, I'd like to see a definition of measurement that doesn't involve comparison to a standard. 'A potentiometer-wire voltmeter is better than a DMM because the former draws no curret at balance'. This is more subtle. While it's true that a potentiometer-wire voltmeter dwraws no curret at balance, you can never know it's exactly at balance. You are limited by the sensitivity of the detector you're using. And when that detector is a moving coil/pointer (not a mirror) type of meter with a sensitivity of, perhaps, 1uA if you're lucky, then a 10M ohm DMM actually takes less current from, say, a Weston standard cell. > >However, I am also worried that the general public don't want to learn > >about scientific subjects. > > Most people don't want to learn about anything, unless it has boobs or=20 > kicks footballs... :-S My experience suggests that people are naturally curious about things, but that schools are designed to remove that curiosity. Fortunately it didn't work in my case :-). I learnt almost nothing at school -- everything I now use I taught myself (thankfully, from books that were a lot more advanced than th eaverage school textbook). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 18:26:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <28319.195.212.29.83.1092917848.squirrel@server.inet> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Aug 19, 4 01:17:28 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin said: > > >> > BTW, have you ever replaced the brake master cylinder on one? > >> Yes. Very recently, in fact. The scratches in my forearm are still > > Wasn't the finest example of service accessibility! > > It's been 30 years since I did one. > > The guy who designed that particular system went on to work for Citroen. > In particular, he designed the fuel system for the Citroen XM 2 litre > fuel-injected models, with the filter mounted on top of the rear subframe, Or maybe the Citroen BX cooling system pipework? The idiot didn't put drain plug on the radiator, the only way to drain the system is to take off the bottom hose. And the only way to do that is with your head right under it. I have had several face-fulls of antifreeze (it tastes horrible!). The BX clutch cable is painful too, on UK models. On the European ones, it's easy, but on the UK ones (RH drive), it goes through the bulkhead at the timing-case end of the engine. Which means there's almost no space to get to the self-tapping screws that hold the plate/rubber gaiter in place. When I did a clutch change on my father's BX, that was the part that caused me the most problems -- removing the transmission, although a fairly long job involving pulling the driveshafts, uncoupling some of the hydraulics, etc) was straightforward. > He also designed the placement of the suspension centre spheres, the ones > that switch in and out under control of the ECU. They need replaced every The BX spehres (no electronics, so just the normal 5 spheres, one on each suspension cylinder, one on the pressure regulator) are easy. The Front ones come off from the top, the accumulator (at least on Diesel models) comes out from under the front bumper (lift the car on the suspension as hight as you can, put axle stands under the side members, then depressurise the hydraulics), the rear ones come out from under the car -- it's easiest if you take the wheels off first. The best tool I've found for remocing them is a _good_ oil filter strap wrench -- the Facom one with the screw tensioner, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 18:28:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 19, 4 10:20:29 am Message-ID: > > Consider paper inter-office mail. If a person is goinf to reply/forward a > > printed message, they will often [at least in the old days], type up a page > > with their information [anyone have a Royal Typewriter handy], and attach > > the original [or a copy] BEHIND it...... > > That's because they didn't have computers back then. Yes they did. They were the people who operated the calculating machines :-) -tony From rhahm at nycap.rr.com Thu Aug 19 19:11:26 2004 From: rhahm at nycap.rr.com (RHahm) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: HP 9133XV disc drive question Message-ID: I recently aquired an HP 9133XV combination 3.5" floppy and 15M HD with an HPIB interface and Amigo protocol. I tried to use the drive with an HP 86B and an HP 85B computer. The floppy works fine but the computer will not recognize the hard drive. The HD seems to spin up normally. I tried an "INITIALIZE" command without success. Can the series 80 computers use this large drive? Does anyone know how to use the test function on the drive? Thanks From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Aug 19 19:21:34 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Radiation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4125440E.9000808@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > 'A potentiometer-wire voltmeter is better than a DMM because the former > draws no curret at balance'. This is more subtle. While it's true that a > potentiometer-wire voltmeter dwraws no curret at balance, you can never > know it's exactly at balance. You are limited by the sensitivity of the > detector you're using. And when that detector is a moving coil/pointer > (not a mirror) type of meter with a sensitivity of, perhaps, 1uA if > you're lucky, then a 10M ohm DMM actually takes less current from, say, a > Weston standard cell. I heard that argument for the superiority of the potentiometer at school, too. It would've been in about 1979. Wish I'd thought of the counter-argument about the sensitivity of the meter, but I didn't think of it until many years later. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Aug 19 20:17:02 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040820011702.GA30773@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 12:28:47AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > That's because they didn't have computers back then. > > Yes they did. They were the people who operated the calculating machines :-) One of my co-workers here, her mother was a "computer" back in the day... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Aug-2004 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79 F (-61.7 C) Windchill -118.1 F (-83.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.2 kts Grid 061 Barometer 669.7 mb (11018 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Aug 19 23:02:27 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Semiconductor Books Message-ID: <20040819.210228.1800.5.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I'm cleaning out my basement, and I have a few semiconductor books I would like to dispose of: Analog Devices, Data Converter Reference Manual, Vol I & II, 1992 Motorola Silicon Rectifier Manual, 1980 Hitachi ECL logic and Memory Data Book, Year Unknown Precision Monolithics Linear and Conversion Products, 1984 Intersil Semiconductor databook, mid-1980's (has a section for the IM6100) Analog Devices, Special Linear Reference Manual, 1992 Harris, Analog and Telecomm Product Data book, 1984 Motorola Power Mosfet Transistor Data, 1984 Motorola Semiconductor, Master Selection Guide and Catalog. 1984 I will favor offers for the entire lot; plus book rate postage. Thank you for your attention . . . .. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 19 23:01:09 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: <9190C94A-F25D-11D8-9362-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system 6, I only have a bout 2mb of memory and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an imagewriter to go with it!! :^) Will system 7 run ok on this machine? Where's the best place to download software stuff for system 6 and system 7? Anyone have a copy of "macintosh basic" they can spare? From dmhills at attglobal.net Thu Aug 19 23:16:57 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:20 2005 Subject: Wanted: IBM Convetible (5140) "Application Selector" software In-Reply-To: <20040819210702.7794.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5sXJBtgaXezE092yn@attglobal.net> steven wrote: > >Does anyone have the "Application Selector" software >for the IBM 5140 Convertible computer? > >It used to be on the IBM website for download, but no >longer. IBM (It's Been Moved): ftp://service.boulder.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/refdisks/5140star.exe -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Aug 19 23:30:47 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: HP Pen Plotters (7470 and 7475) References: <200408191700.i7JH09bb065584@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000401c4866e$7a6f8530$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> I found two HP Pen Plotters in a closet at work. One is a 2 pen 7470, the other is a 6 pen 7475. There is also a bunch of pens (50) that still work.. I powered up the 7470 and it works from the front panel. The self test prints an *. I haven't tried the RS232 interface yet. I don't have the manuals for these plotters. I do have a summary of the switch setting and RS-232 pinout. Does anyone want them? Does anyone have access to the manuals? Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 19 23:45:37 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: HP Pen Plotters (7470 and 7475) In-Reply-To: <000401c4866e$7a6f8530$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: Contacting Michael about 7475....... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley >>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 12:31 AM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: HP Pen Plotters (7470 and 7475) >>> >>> I found two HP Pen Plotters in a closet at work. One is a 2 >>> pen 7470, the other is a 6 pen 7475. >>> There is also a bunch of pens (50) that still work.. >>> >>> I powered up the 7470 and it works from the front panel. >>> The self test prints an *. >>> I haven't tried the RS232 interface yet. >>> >>> I don't have the manuals for these plotters. I do have a >>> summary of the switch setting and RS-232 pinout. >>> >>> Does anyone want them? Does anyone have access to the manuals? >>> >>> Michael Holley >>> www.swtpc.com/mholley >>> >>> From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Aug 19 23:47:36 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: HP Pen Plotters (7470 and 7475) In-Reply-To: <000401c4866e$7a6f8530$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: Michael, Sent you a direct e-mail, but it appears to have bounced. I am definitely interested in the 7475! David >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley >>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 12:31 AM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: HP Pen Plotters (7470 and 7475) >>> >>> I found two HP Pen Plotters in a closet at work. One is a 2 >>> pen 7470, the other is a 6 pen 7475. >>> There is also a bunch of pens (50) that still work.. >>> >>> I powered up the 7470 and it works from the front panel. >>> The self test prints an *. >>> I haven't tried the RS232 interface yet. >>> >>> I don't have the manuals for these plotters. I do have a >>> summary of the switch setting and RS-232 pinout. >>> >>> Does anyone want them? Does anyone have access to the manuals? >>> >>> Michael Holley >>> www.swtpc.com/mholley >>> >>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 00:50:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Radiation In-Reply-To: <4125440E.9000808@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Aug 20, 4 01:21:34 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > 'A potentiometer-wire voltmeter is better than a DMM because the former > > draws no curret at balance'. This is more subtle. While it's true that a > > potentiometer-wire voltmeter dwraws no curret at balance, you can never > > know it's exactly at balance. You are limited by the sensitivity of the > > detector you're using. And when that detector is a moving coil/pointer > > (not a mirror) type of meter with a sensitivity of, perhaps, 1uA if > > you're lucky, then a 10M ohm DMM actually takes less current from, say, a > > Weston standard cell. > > I heard that argument for the superiority of the potentiometer at > school, too. It would've been in about 1979. Wish I'd thought of Before the availability of cheap electronic meters it was sort-of true. Using a moving-coil meter as a meter (as opposed to a null detector) you'd want to have a deflection near FSD for accuracy. Which would mean a current of 50uA if you were lucky. Yes, electrometers (using special valves [1] in the input stage) existed back then, but were expensive and touchy to use. The coming of the FET helped a lot :-) [1] It is one of the worse-kept secrets that the ME1400 electrometer pentode is nothing other than a selected EF39 run with 4V on the heater The real probklem is that schools are stuck in the past (the potentiometer wire used to be the common way of measuring voltage that draws a minimal current so it must always be), they perpertuate myths (like the ones about the 0 current at balance) and teachers seem to be incapable of thinking (I almost failed a physics exam for the above arguments!) -tony From hansp at citem.org Fri Aug 20 01:03:06 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4125941A.2080909@citem.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>That's because they didn't have computers back then. > Yes they did. They were the people who operated the calculating machines :-) The current issue of the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing has an an interesting article on the origins of the word computer. It is available for free at http://www.computer.org/annals/an2004/promo1.pdf -- HansP From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 20 03:12:34 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:01:09 PDT." <9190C94A-F25D-11D8-9362-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200408200812.JAA15054@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson said: > I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system 6, I > only have a bout 2mb of memory > and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an imagewriter to go with it!! :^) Great. They're good fun, I use one as a terminal to 2 Linux boxes. > > Will system 7 run ok on this machine? > IIRC, yes but it needs more memory than 6 and runs slower. I run 6.08 on mine. > Where's the best place to download software stuff for system 6 and > system 7? See: http://ccadams.org/se/ and http://www.jagshouse.com/jagshouseopen.html for software and info. Apple still has system 6 and 7 on their website if you need it but getting system software from the net onto 400k floppies is not easy if you don't have an old Mac already. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 05:44:58 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <9190C94A-F25D-11D8-9362-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4125F24A.4971.37BB54A5@localhost> Am 19 Aug 2004 21:01 meinte Ron Hudson: > I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system 6, I > only have a bout 2mb of memory and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an > imagewriter to go with it!! :^) > Will system 7 run ok on this machine? 7.5.5 is the highest officialy running. if it's an SE/30, there are rumors that even 8.1, the last release for the 68K Macs may work http://lowendmac.com/tech/bornagain.html In fact, Low End Mac is _the_ resource to start http://lowendmac.com/ (note that they are among the few who got the name thing right ... no 'www.') While they have started like 8 years agoas a site dedicated to show that back then outdated 68000/020 Macs are still a great computer to run on, they have by now evolved to even cover power Macs and iMacs :) Beside that, the 'resources for older Macs' are one of the most comprehensive link collections for 68K Macs and a definite must http://w3.trib.com/~dwood/oldmac.shtml > Where's the best place to download software stuff for system 6 and > system 7? Just follo above links. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 08:53:59 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: > I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system 6, I >only have a bout 2mb of memory >and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an imagewriter to go with it!! :^) If you want to raise that to 4 MB (the max it can handle), give me a mailing address (off list), I'll send you 2 more 1 MB SIMMs for it. >Will system 7 run ok on this machine? Run? Yes, Ok? Eh. Not at all if you don't go to 4 MB, but yes it can run 7.5.5, it just runs it a bit slower then 6.0.8 (both are downloadable from Apple's Web site) -chris From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 09:00:20 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >Apple still has system 6 and 7 on their website if >you need it but getting system software from the net onto 400k floppies is >not easy if you don't have an old Mac already. Apple has 6.0.8 and 7.5.3 and the 7.5.5 updater available as free downloads. They do not have previous versions of System 6 or 7, nor later versions of any OS revision. That's actually OK, as performance wise, there is little difference on an SE between System 7.5.5 and System 7.0 or 7.1. And .5.5 is more stable and has better networking support, so there is really no reason to run a previous version of System 7. Same can be said for System 6.0.8 and previous versions. There is really no reason NOT to run .8 so there should be no worries about lacking earlier versions. And although your comment about getting them onto floppies still holds true, it is worth correcting that the SE uses 800K drives at the minimum. Some of the SEs uses 1.44 drives. The best way to know is to look at the front of the case. If it says either SuperDrive or FDHD, it is using 1.44 drives. If it just says SE, it is probably an 800k drive (also the back label will likely tell you). Hopefully this persons is a 1.44 drive, so they at least have a half a shot at creating the disks on another computer. If they are in fact 800k drives, that could prove a challenge almost as much as 400k. Later Macs can't read/write 800k disks as well as the 400k, and PCs I don't think can do 400 or 800 at all. (I think there are ways to get PCs to write the 1.44 disks however, and at least those are readily doable by any newer Mac with a floppy drive). -chris From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 09:02:22 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4126208E.8595.38700AF9@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 9:53 meinte chris: > > I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system 6, I > >only have a bout 2mb of memory > >and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an imagewriter to go with it!! :^) > >Will system 7 run ok on this machine? > Run? Yes, Ok? Eh. Not at all if you don't go to 4 MB, but yes it can run > 7.5.5, it just runs it a bit slower then 6.0.8 Yea, I forgot, 4 MB is a must. And if you happen to find any memory expansion above 4 MB (have been available in the 'good 'ol times', go for it. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 09:36:58 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 6:53 AM, chris wrote: >> I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system 6, I >> only have a bout 2mb of memory >> and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an imagewriter to go with it!! :^) > > If you want to raise that to 4 MB (the max it can handle), give me a > mailing address (off list), I'll send you 2 more 1 MB SIMMs for it. > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean evil nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something inside and that would be bad. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 09:38:34 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408200812.JAA15054@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200408200812.JAA15054@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <9D68BB8C-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 1:12 AM, Stan Barr wrote: > See: http://ccadams.org/se/ and > http://www.jagshouse.com/jagshouseopen.html > for software and info. Apple still has system 6 and 7 on their > website if > you need it but getting system software from the net onto 400k > floppies is > not easy if you don't have an old Mac already. > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > Thanks, I'll check out ccadams, I've been to Jagshouse. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 20 09:52:01 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > cracker That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of dead Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. tnx. g. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 09:46:48 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2004, at 7:00 AM, chris wrote: > If they are in fact 800k > drives, that could prove a challenge almost as much as 400k. Later Macs > can't read/write 800k disks as well as the 400k, and PCs I don't think > can do 400 or 800 at all. (I think there are ways to get PCs to write > the > 1.44 disks however, and at least those are readily doable by any newer > Mac with a floppy drive). > > -chris > > I do have the 1.44 built in diskette drive. Did the APPLE II 3.5 work with this machine too? I have heard that if you plug in the 5.25 you will burn out your floppy controller. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 09:56:02 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41262D22.29635.38A12E42@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 7:46 meinte Ron Hudson: > On Aug 20, 2004, at 7:00 AM, chris wrote: > > If they are in fact 800k > > drives, that could prove a challenge almost as much as 400k. Later Macs > > can't read/write 800k disks as well as the 400k, and PCs I don't think > > can do 400 or 800 at all. (I think there are ways to get PCs to write > > the > > 1.44 disks however, and at least those are readily doable by any newer > > Mac with a floppy drive). > I do have the 1.44 built in diskette drive. > Did the APPLE II 3.5 work with this machine too? YOu can't use the Apple II drive, but you can read/write Prodos disks. > I have heard that > if you plug in the 5.25 you will burn out your floppy controller. No idea. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 09:58:31 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 7:52 meinte Gene Buckle: > > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > > cracker > That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of dead > Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) pocket :) http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T/funktionen.htm (tons of Java and whatever included :( ) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 20 10:04:28 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> Message-ID: <200408201004.28029.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 20 August 2004 09:58, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 20 Aug 2004 7:52 meinte Gene Buckle: > > > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and > > > case cracker > > > > That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of > > dead Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. You can get a long torx driver from somewhere like Sears - that's where I got mine. 8" or so IIRC is the longest they have and works properly. Or, a torx bit and some extenders for a bit-using screwdriver should work. Menards and Home Depot carry a ratcheting driver with a T15 (and other torx) bit (branded differently) for a reasonable price (a few $$) with a "lifetime guarantee." > Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. > beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) > pocket :) > > http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T >/funktionen.htm I really like that feature of the knife (the screwdriver bits, etc), but wouldn't be able to live without the pair of pliers on my Gerber "leatherman" widget. I use them way too much to break cable ties and cut/strip wires to give them up. : ) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 20 10:06:15 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16678.4967.69549.434654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gene" == Gene Buckle writes: >> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and >> case cracker Gene> That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a Gene> pair of dead Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. I know Jensen Tools has a "MAC case screwdriver", and I expect other companies in that business -- Contact East for example -- would do likewise. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 20 10:23:19 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> Message-ID: > Am 20 Aug 2004 7:52 meinte Gene Buckle: > > > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > > > cracker > > > That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of dead > > Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. > > Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. > beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) > pocket :) > > http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T/funktionen.htm > Thanks for the tip, but I'd rather have a purpose designed tool. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 20 10:25:00 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <16678.4967.69549.434654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > >>>>> "Gene" == Gene Buckle writes: > > >> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and > >> case cracker > > Gene> That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a > Gene> pair of dead Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. > > I know Jensen Tools has a "MAC case screwdriver", and I expect other > companies in that business -- Contact East for example -- would do > likewise. > I've got the Torx tool, I need the gadget that's used to split the case without destroying it in the process. g. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 20 10:18:00 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <9190C94A-F25D-11D8-9362-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <9190C94A-F25D-11D8-9362-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >Will system 7 run ok on this machine? I wouldn't recommend going above System 7.1, when I bought my first Mac, a Powerbook 520c (680LC40/25Mhz) 9 years ago, it came with a base of 4MB RAM. It was set to run System 7.1 with the disk images to upgrade to 7.5.3 on the HD should you upgrade your RAM. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 10:20:41 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408201004.28029.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> Message-ID: <412632E9.32462.38B7BFD8@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 10:04 meinte Patrick Finnegan: > On Friday 20 August 2004 09:58, Hans Franke wrote: > > Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. > > beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) > > pocket :) > > http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T > >/funktionen.htm > I really like that feature of the knife (the screwdriver bits, etc), but > wouldn't be able to live without the pair of pliers on my Gerber > "leatherman" widget. I use them way too much to break cable ties and > cut/strip wires to give them up. : ) Well, it has a pair of pliers ... and for cable ties, or even _thin_ wire (aka resistors etc) are the scissors strong enuf. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Aug 20 10:27:06 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100) References: <4122C295.9050907@pacbell.net> <41234206.2842.2D3AC911@localhost> Message-ID: <4126184A.162A59FC@msm.umr.edu> > > > He's also fairly accessible: > > > http://www.tredennick.com/ > > > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) > > it gets better when you go to his card. > > But I like the crane truck ... that and the other make a > fine classic computer rescue vehicle squad :) Also his "home" and "back" buttons are quite fine. From bips at newmex.com Fri Aug 20 10:38:18 2004 From: bips at newmex.com (bips) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: <6540000.1091607604@libcat1.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: I have an Exidy with S-100 and floppy drives. I have missed placed my floppy disks. They had CP/M, an editor, assembler compiler, and utilities. I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of same. My floppies were 5.25, single sided, 97K. John -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:20 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay ........... Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 10:52:18 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100) In-Reply-To: <4126184A.162A59FC@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <41263A52.15004.38D4B26E@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 8:27 meinte jim stephens: > > > > > He's also fairly accessible: > > > http://www.tredennick.com/ > > > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) > > it gets better when you go to his card. > > But I like the crane truck ... that and the other make a > > fine classic computer rescue vehicle squad :) > > Also his "home" and "back" buttons are quite fine. Whatever works for him :)) Best of all, browse around, there are different nice backgrounds :) -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 10:42:05 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) References: <4122C295.9050907@pacbell.net> <41234206.2842.2D3AC911@localhost> <4126184A.162A59FC@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <057d01c486cc$3fb51960$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > > http://www.tredennick.com/ > > > > > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) > Also his "home" and "back" buttons are quite fine. I hate pictograms. They are a pet peeve of mine. I clicked on "back" looking for more pictures of his wife :-)! Those supposedly "international" symbols in the car are confusing, too. Vince From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 11:11:45 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <057d01c486cc$3fb51960$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <41263EE1.14503.38E68192@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 8:42 meinte vrs: > > > > http://www.tredennick.com/ > > > > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) > > > Also his "home" and "back" buttons are quite fine. > I hate pictograms. They are a pet peeve of mine. I clicked on "back" > looking for more pictures of his wife :-)! *G* > Those supposedly "international" symbols in the car are confusing, too. Well, now you got me going .. so stupid signs saying some text in some language are better than symbols? I'm talking about the weired way that 99% of all signs in the US are written text. Beside that reading them takes way more time, isn't it especialy stupid in a country baesed on emigrants, of whoom most can't even read their native language? I mean, except for some realy ninor quirks, I can go almost everywhere on the world and perfectly recognize the speed linkit, no stop znoes, and whatever without speaking a danm word of that language... except of course the US... Gruss H. (and for tose 'international' stuff inside cars, I always suspect they are only understood by americans ... of European origin they can't be) -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 11:40:29 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) References: <41263EE1.14503.38E68192@localhost> Message-ID: <05b201c486d4$67962b60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > Those supposedly "international" symbols in the car are confusing, too. > > Well, now you got me going .. so stupid signs saying some > text in some language are better than symbols? I'm talking > about the weired way that 99% of all signs in the US are > written text. Beside that reading them takes way more time, > isn't it especialy stupid in a country baesed on emigrants, > of whoom most can't even read their native language? > > I mean, except for some realy ninor quirks, I can go almost > everywhere on the world and perfectly recognize the speed > linkit, no stop znoes, and whatever without speaking a danm > word of that language... except of course the US... Well, there *is* still only one official language here...except I think in California. But really, I think the problem is that no-one explains the damn pictograms. There is a driver's manual to explain the road signs, but nothing explains those goofy symbols on the dash. I have had cars literally for years before I understood what the airflow control symbols in them were trying to tell me. (Yes, I could have looked under the dash and figured it out, but it is a non-critical system, so why bother?) It is not even that it is important to understand the symbols. It is more that they are supposed to be *easier* to understand, but aren't. Little squiggles with some particular orientation might mean "heat" to you, but when I look at them, I can't tell if it means something will blow air on me, or what. I suspect that it really comes down to what you are used to. When I was young the words "heat" and "air" were on the knob, and never quite made the transition, I guess :-). Of course, I'd also avoid driving in a foreign country (if at all possible) until I was darn sure I knew the local rules and lingo anyway. Especially anywhere they drive on the left. (It would make me nervous as hell to drive a deadly weapon around, with a fair chance of making a mistake with it, and then to not even be able to explain myself to the locals.) Vince From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 20 11:40:32 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread References: <41263EE1.14503.38E68192@localhost> Message-ID: <006001c486d4$699cf7e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > except for some realy ninor quirks, I can go almost everywhere > on the world and perfectly recognize the speed linkit, no stop znoes American unilinguality probably has more a place in the past than in the future. I would attribute it more to just nature and geography than any militant intent. One border is the Pacific ocean and another is the Atlantic, perhaps the #1 and #2 largest oceans on earth, a luckier situation probably couldn't be planned. A standard question one got when working at IBM was, "Oh, I see from your name that you're French. Have you ever been to France?" probably a pretty enlightened place, relatively speaking. John A. Hans, I think you're getting over your typo limit. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 11:50:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <4125F24A.4971.37BB54A5@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > http://lowendmac.com/ > (note that they are among the few who got the name thing right ... no 'www.') Hans, I made it easy for you. The VCF website has always been accessible this way: http://vintage.org Do I get a cookie? Or better yet, pumperknickel please! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 11:55:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean evil > nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something inside > and that would be bad. What kind of crap attitude is that? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 12:25:03 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Hans Wrote..... >>> >>> > http://lowendmac.com/ >>> > (note that they are among the few who got the name thing >>> right ... no >>> > 'www.') >>> First I will agree that nearly every site gets it wrong. But that does not imply that this site got it right! The protocol [http://] and site [...somewhere.tld] are really independent. For many entities ftp.myplace.com and www.myplace.com can be located worlds apart. To further complicate matters an entity may want independent features using the same protocol [internal.mysite.com www.mysite.com]. For MOST sites http://mydomain.tld should map to http://www.mydomain.tld for convience, but I will argue that is is not a requirement to have "done it right". David. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 12:25:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <05b201c486d4$67962b60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: >>> Well, there *is* still only one official language >>> here...except I think in California. And Florida, and New York and ....... From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 20 11:20:58 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20040821032058.0133aa98@pop-server> At 07:52 AM 8/20/04 -0700, you wrote: >> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case >> cracker > >That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of dead >Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. > >tnx. The long torx screwdriver should be available from any good tool shop, though for the longest time I used one made from the tip of a too short torx screwdriver welded to shaft of another screwdriver. I've never seen a case cracker, but I'm not sure why you'd need one. Every compact mac I've opened has came apart easily once the screws were removed. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 12:26:17 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B173A72-F2CE-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 8:25 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I've got the Torx tool, I need the gadget that's used to split the case > without destroying it in the process. > > g. > I have seen some made from door hinges. Long handles are connected to the faces of the hinges so that when the handles are squeezed the tips of hinges open. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 12:31:24 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case >> cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean >> evil >> nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something >> inside >> and that would be bad. > > What kind of crap attitude is that? What kind of crack is that Sellam. Just because I don't want to take a chance of RUINING the ONE Mac SE I have. EASY for you to say. You've got random machines stacked to the roof. I've seen them. There are dangerous voltages on the analog board of that machine. Perhaps even FATAL voltages. On top of that you know nothing of my electronics repair skills, I know what my limits may be. I would not want to break one of the SIM holders. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 12:44:34 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 13:25 meinte David V. Corbin: > >>> Hans Wrote..... > >>> > http://lowendmac.com/ > >>> > (note that they are among the few who got the name thing > >>> right ... no > >>> > 'www.') > First I will agree that nearly every site gets it wrong. But that does not > imply that this site got it right! > The protocol [http://] and site [...somewhere.tld] are really independent. > For many entities ftp.myplace.com and www.myplace.com can be located worlds > apart. To further complicate matters an entity may want independent features > using the same protocol [internal.mysite.com www.mysite.com]. > For MOST sites http://mydomain.tld should map to http://www.mydomain.tld for > convience, but I will argue that is is not a requirement to have "done it > right". Yep, you're right here. If there are multiple _computers_ with multiple _ip-addresses_ involved. Just, to my unserstandig at least 98% of all domain names registered are done so for websites, often running with several hundrets other on the same machine. So, why do they tell their servers only to react onto the subdomain www. ? Anyway, it's one of the things we will never get rid of again. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 12:44:34 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <006001c486d4$699cf7e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <412654A2.27310.393B7B4C@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 12:40 meinte John Allain: > > except for some realy ninor quirks, I can go almost everywhere > > on the world and perfectly recognize the speed linkit, no stop znoes > John A. > Hans, I think you're getting over your typo limit. I guess you're right... I should write such rants after returning from dinner, not when the food is already waiting. After all, I'm just a typical male - and as someone already stated on this list, a short time ago: Most men are just thinking of food ... and so did I :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 20 12:51:25 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) References: <05b201c486d4$67962b60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <16678.14877.572576.297570@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: >>>> Well, there *is* still only one official language here...except >>>> I think in California. David> And Florida, and New York and ....... Actually, there isn't any official language in the USA. There's one generally used by long tradition (English) and a large quantity of others used to a lesser extent. Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Basque, Navajo, ... paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 20 13:18:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093025892.1881.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 17:25, David V. Corbin wrote: > For MOST sites http://mydomain.tld should map to http://www.mydomain.tld for > convience, but I will argue that is is not a requirement to have "done it > right". It's one of those features that I don't particuarly like, though. I remember once when using a sluggish browser randomly hitting a few keys in the address bar and hitting return to see if it was alive, expecting an error page back. As it happens, I happened to happened to hit 'kkk' and ended up on the Ku Klux Klan website - nice. A quick test just now (using Opera; the previous time would have been IE - version 4 probably - in a work environment) shows that this is still the case. I'm not sure if it's Opera being clever and guessing at stuff to stick on the front and end of whatever's in the address bar, or a function of some transparent web proxy somewhere within my ISP. I think I'd much rather things to work such that the address I type in either resolves to something or comes back with nothing. Oh, and for advertisers to actually give the full address - I've seen cases before where they leave off such as the 'www' expecting your browser to add it for you. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 20 13:25:08 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> References: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> Message-ID: <41264204.9040001@mdrconsult.com> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 20 Aug 2004 13:25 meinte David V. Corbin: > >>>>>Hans Wrote..... >>>>> >>>>>>http://lowendmac.com/ >>>>>>(note that they are among the few who got the name thing >>>>> >>>>>right ... no >>>>> >>>>>>'www.') > > >>First I will agree that nearly every site gets it wrong. But that does not >>imply that this site got it right! > > >>The protocol [http://] and site [...somewhere.tld] are really independent. >>For many entities ftp.myplace.com and www.myplace.com can be located worlds >>apart. To further complicate matters an entity may want independent features >>using the same protocol [internal.mysite.com www.mysite.com]. > > >>For MOST sites http://mydomain.tld should map to http://www.mydomain.tld for >>convience, but I will argue that is is not a requirement to have "done it >>right". > > > Yep, you're right here. If there are multiple _computers_ with multiple > _ip-addresses_ involved. Just, to my unserstandig at least 98% of all > domain names registered are done so for websites, often running with > several hundrets other on the same machine. So, why do they tell their > servers only to react onto the subdomain www. ? Ahem. First, as referenced by "http://www.mydomain.tld", "www.mydomain.tld" is NOT a subdomain, it's the FQDN (Fully Qualified Domain Name) of an individual host. Even if the hostname www.mydomain.tld is served by a farm or cluster, as far as client access goes and as far as DNS is concerned, it's a single entity, and it's a hostname, not a subdomain. Second, resolving a domain name as a host breaks RFC definitions and recommendations. A lot of sites do it (including my company, against my wishes), but it is improper. Doc From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 20 12:48:09 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:00:20 EDT." Message-ID: <200408201748.SAA23209@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, chris said: > > And although your comment about getting them onto floppies still holds > true, it is worth correcting that the SE uses 800K drives at the minimum. That's what I *really* meant of course, a case of brain-fade... :-( I'd got up late after a bad night and hadn't quite finished my first espresso, I'm useless until my first caffeine infusion! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From india_50 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 13:37:42 2004 From: india_50 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Subramanian=20Iyer?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: <200408201701.i7KH0Wbd073999@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040820183742.54175.qmail@web14227.mail.yahoo.com> hi, i hv an old 8088 comp, of i guess a hitachi make. the monochrome monitor that came with it isn't workin. but the power supply is in good condition. how do i check if the system is in working order. anyways where can i find info on manual bootstrapping. urs, subs __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 13:41:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Nick Tredennick at VCF 7.0 (was Re: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <4126184A.162A59FC@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, jim stephens wrote: > > > > > He's also fairly accessible: > > > > > http://www.tredennick.com/ > > > > > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) > > > > it gets better when you go to his card. > > > > But I like the crane truck ... that and the other make a > > fine classic computer rescue vehicle squad :) > > > Also his "home" and "back" buttons are quite fine. Meet Nick Tredennick at VCF 7.0! http://vintage.org/2004/main/speaker.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 13:45:31 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) References: Message-ID: <063601c486e5$df6b4b00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > >>> Well, there *is* still only one official language > >>> here...except I think in California. > > And Florida, and New York and ....... OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official language, but what is the other major language in New York? Vince From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 13:45:55 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case >cracker >tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean evil nasty >high voltages live >in there. Besides I might bust something inside and that would be bad. Screw driver, as others have mentioned can be bought at Sears. Case cracker you can also get at Sears. Buy a smallish spring wood clamp, then remove the rubber protective tips. The blade tips will then fit into the case crack, squeeze the clamp, and it pops the case open. Or you can do the Shake and Bounce method of loosening the case... but I don't recommend that. If you have to do a forceful method, do the light tapping around the edges method (or just pick up the dang clamp when buying your screwdriver!) As for the voltages, there isn't anything readily accidentally touched inside. The Analog Board (the one with the lethal power), is mounted in such a way that you can't accidentally touch the inside of it. You have to try to reach in and do it. And the back side of the board (that you can accidentally touch) is covered with an insulating sheet, so you can touch away and nothing will happen. HOWEVER, removal of the logic board, so you can upgrade the RAM, can lead you to needing to reach into the lethal zone. The board was designed to slide about 1/2 inch and then release from one side of the cage, letting you tip the board out and then disconnect the power, floppy, hard drive (if there is one) and sound. However, I've yet to run into an SE that the cables are really long enough to let you do that with any ease. It has always been MUCH easier to reach under the CRT, and disconnect all but the sound while the logic board is still in place in the cage. THEN remove it from the cage and disconnect the sound. So there is a little bit of "danger", but it isn't anything to really worry too much about. I'd be happy to supply you with a PDF of the take apart manual along with the SIMMs if you wanted. -chris From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 13:48:03 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:21 2005 Subject: Nick Tredennick at VCF 7.0 (was Re: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: References: <4126184A.162A59FC@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <41266383.31382.397599A7@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 11:41 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, jim stephens wrote: > > > > > > > He's also fairly accessible: > > > > http://www.tredennick.com/ > > > > (I like the background motif he uses on his web pages :) > > > it gets better when you go to his card. > > > But I like the crane truck ... that and the other make a > > > fine classic computer rescue vehicle squad :) > > > > Also his "home" and "back" buttons are quite fine. > Meet Nick Tredennick at VCF 7.0! > http://vintage.org/2004/main/speaker.php Well done! -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 13:48:04 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. >beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) >pocket :) > >http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T/funk >tionen.htm > >(tons of Java and whatever included :( ) Wow COOL! I might have to finally upgrade my current Victorinox (the one I have is very similar to the one pictured, it just doesn't have the extra socketed tips) -chris From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 13:49:18 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >I've got the Torx tool, I need the gadget that's used to split the case >without destroying it in the process. A spring wood clamp without the protective rubber tips works very well. (the kind that looks like a giant metal clothes pin). -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 13:51:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> Message-ID: <20040820114503.R1994@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. > beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) > pocket :) > http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T/funktionen.htm It's nice, but I want a 1/4" bit driver, not their little one. The U.S. import models do not include the extras shown at the bottom of that picture - is that "extender" a size adapter? Accordingly, I have the swiss army knife "cybertool" in a double sheath along with the vise-grip 5Wr multitool (that DOES have a 1/4" bit holder) http://www.47d.net/~seven/vg/v-multitool.html From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 13:52:29 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >I do have the 1.44 built in diskette drive. > >Did the APPLE II 3.5 work with this machine too? I have heard that >if you plug in the 5.25 you will burn out your floppy controller. The 1.44 drive will read and write Apple ProDos 3.5" floppies. As for plugging in an Apple II drive into the floppy port on the Mac, don't do it unless you are sure the drive is one compatible with the mac. Most of the A2 drives were not, even though they had the same connector. They could damage the Mac. There were however some that were compatible with the Mac. I know there was a 3.5" drive that worked with the Mac or the A2, and I think there may have also been a 5.25" drive that worked with both (not counting the one for the A2e card that plugged into the card's adaptor cable). -chris From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Aug 20 13:55:27 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <063601c486e5$df6b4b00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <063601c486e5$df6b4b00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, vrs wrote: > > OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official language, but what > is the other major language in New York? "Brusque" Cheers John From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Aug 20 13:50:27 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: (Ron Hudson's message of "Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:31:24 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200408201850.i7KIoRov059670@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > Just because I don't want to take a chance of RUINING the ONE Mac SE > I have. EASY for you to say. You've got random machines stacked to > the roof. I've seen them. > There are dangerous voltages on the analog board of that machine. > Perhaps even FATAL voltages. You'd be doing this with the power cord removed. Mind the CRT of course, it could be holding a charge. > On top of that you know nothing of my electronics repair skills, I know > what my limits may be. I would not want to break one of the SIM holders. You'd be breaking other things on the way to the SIMM holders. Realistically, you should be more worried about marring the case. I might sit the SE on its face and try to "crack" the case on the bottom where the faceplate meets the rear cover. Starting from that position, you might even be able to lift or wiggle the rear cover off once you've removed the screws. The rear cover is a cover, the frame is attached to the faceplate, and everything else is attached to the frame which makes the frame-and-faceplate the heavier bit. Once upon a time I saw a tool that was a sort of L-shaped rod with a Torx bit at the end of the long portion, and a sort of disk, maybe 2 inches in diameter, mounted at the end of the short portion with a bit of printed-circuit-board material sticking out along a line drawn through the center of its face. You would use the Torx to remove the case screws, then insert the printed-circuit-board material into the seam between faceplate and rear cover so the face of the disk was up against the seam, and twist to crack the case at the seam. -Frank McConnell From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 13:56:09 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread References: <41263EE1.14503.38E68192@localhost> <006001c486d4$699cf7e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <063b01c486e7$5c75ae00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > except for some realy ninor quirks, I can go almost everywhere > > on the world and perfectly recognize the speed linkit, no stop znoes > > American unilinguality probably has more a place in the past than in > the future. I would attribute it more to just nature and geography than > any militant intent. One border is the Pacific ocean and another is the > Atlantic, perhaps the #1 and #2 largest oceans on earth, a luckier > situation probably couldn't be planned. I think this gets close to what is going on in the American psyche. We live in a huge country, and really a very homogenous one. Most of the time, we don't even realize "foreigners" exist. People from other contries (understandably) resent that. Similarly, people here resent having to change their established behavior for quasi-mythical "others". Lately people here seem to treat their neighbors as quasi-mythical. > A standard question one got when working at IBM was, "Oh, I see from > your name that you're French. Have you ever been to France?" probably > a pretty enlightened place, relatively speaking. He'd heard of France, but never met anyone from there. I feel the same way about North Dakota :-). Vince From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 14:00:01 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040820115609.W1994@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, chris wrote: > HOWEVER, removal of the logic board, so you can upgrade the RAM, can lead > you to needing to reach into the lethal zone. The board was designed to > slide about 1/2 inch and then release from one side of the cage, letting > you tip the board out and then disconnect the power, floppy, hard drive > (if there is one) and sound. However, I've yet to run into an SE that the > cables are really long enough to let you do that with any ease. It has > always been MUCH easier to reach under the CRT, and disconnect all but > the sound while the logic board is still in place in the cage. THEN > remove it from the cage and disconnect the sound. The Morris Minor brake master cylinder thread is not completely off-topic. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 14:06:51 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: References: <063601c486e5$df6b4b00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040820120427.B1994@shell.lmi.net> > OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official language, but what > is the other major language in New York? Brooklynese From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 14:20:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0CEC792F-F2DE-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Thanks Chris, Perhaps the danger is not as bas as I make it out to be, but, and I know you probably did not know this, I am jobless right now.. If I do break anything I can't afford to replace it. That and the fact that the machine seems to run really well on OS 6 and I have found many fun things on the net that also run on OS6. I'll try installing the OS7 I'll be getting soon - but perhaps it won't work, so back to OS 6. no problem. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 20 14:01:55 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> References: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> Message-ID: <20040820210155.68515279.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:44:34 +0200 "Hans Franke" wrote: > So, why do they tell their servers only to react onto the subdomain > www. ? Hans, learn the difference between a (Full Qualified) Host Name and a Domain Name. mydomain.tld is a subdomain. It _may_ have an A record with an IP address also, but usually it is only a domain with no IP address associated. Where www.mydomain.tld is a FQDN leading to an A record with an IP address or an CNAME alias. IP numbers refer to hosts (FQDN) and vice versa. Hosts are the leaves in the hierarchical DNS name space tree, where domains are branches in the name space. Services run on hosts so myserver.mydomain.tld is the correct way. p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 14:33:49 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <063601c486e5$df6b4b00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: >>> > And Florida, and New York and ....... >>> >>> OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official >>> language, but what is the other major language in New York? >>> >>> Vince >>> I was referring specifically to NYC [although I live outside of it] the primary languages differ based on the neighborhood with large predominanly Spanish, Chinese areas. In some of the neighborhoods you can actually walk around an NOT see (almost) any signs in english, and the residents speak english to level of fluenct that suits them From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 14:24:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > >> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > >> cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean > >> evil > >> nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something > >> inside > >> and that would be bad. > > > > What kind of crap attitude is that? > > What kind of crack is that Sellam. It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared to open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a computer. > Just because I don't want to take a chance of RUINING the ONE Mac SE I > have. EASY for you to say. You've got random machines stacked to the > roof. I've seen them. You want another? > There are dangerous voltages on the analog board of that machine. > Perhaps even FATAL voltages. You're more likely to get hit by a car than get zapped by your Macintosh if you take simple precautions, like unplugging it from the wall for example. > On top of that you know nothing of my electronics repair skills, I know > what my limits may be. I would not want to break one of the SIM holders. Take a chance. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 14:35:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <063b01c486e7$5c75ae00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: >>> He'd heard of France, but never met anyone from there. I >>> feel the same way about North Dakota :-). >>> Ahhh, but how do you KNOW if you meet someone from North Dakota [or for fans of Dan Brown, know if they ARE North Dakota...] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 14:36:38 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <20040820120427.B1994@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> >>> > OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official >>> language, >>> > but what is the other major language in New York? >>> >>> Brooklynese >>> Hey, Are YOU talking to me? Are you TALKING to me? Are you talking to ME? From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 14:28:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <1093025892.1881.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > A quick test just now (using Opera; the previous time would have been IE > - version 4 probably - in a work environment) shows that this is still > the case. I'm not sure if it's Opera being clever and guessing at stuff > to stick on the front and end of whatever's in the address bar, or a > function of some transparent web proxy somewhere within my ISP. I thought IE assumes you mean "www.kkk.com" if you just type in "kkk", but I just tested that theory and it didn't work in IE6. I was pretty sure it used to work this way. > I think I'd much rather things to work such that the address I type in > either resolves to something or comes back with nothing. Oh, and for > advertisers to actually give the full address - I've seen cases before > where they leave off such as the 'www' expecting your browser to add it > for you. Or they forgot to point the basic domain name to their webserver in DNS. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 14:29:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: <063601c486e5$df6b4b00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, vrs wrote: > > >>> Well, there *is* still only one official language > > >>> here...except I think in California. > > > > And Florida, and New York and ....... > > OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official language, but what > is the other major language in New York? Hebrew. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 14:38:09 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040820210155.68515279.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> Message-ID: <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 21:01 meinte Jochen Kunz: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:44:34 +0200 > "Hans Franke" wrote: > > > So, why do they tell their servers only to react onto the subdomain > > www. ? > Hans, learn the difference between a (Full Qualified) Host Name and a > Domain Name. mydomain.tld is a subdomain. It _may_ have an A record with > an IP address also, but usually it is only a domain with no IP address > associated. Where www.mydomain.tld is a FQDN leading to an A record with > an IP address or an CNAME alias. IP numbers refer to hosts (FQDN) and > vice versa. Hosts are the leaves in the hierarchical DNS name space > tree, where domains are branches in the name space. Services run on > hosts so myserver.mydomain.tld is the correct way. Ok, I know why I love this group so much. Not only nerds, but also nitpicking nerds ... I guess I fit here quite well. Fine, a whole load of ashes on my head. Nonetheless, the point stays, that, if a second level domain has only one host, there is no need to create computer names within. Nor any standard asking that, if you run a specific service, you have to add names. > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 14:41:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> >> On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case >>>> cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean >>>> evil >>>> nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something >>>> inside >>>> and that would be bad. >>> >>> What kind of crap attitude is that? >> >> What kind of crack is that Sellam. > > It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not > accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared > to > open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a > computer. 1 - I am not working - I can't afford to replace whatever I may break 2 - It's working well with it's 2mb of memory under OS 6, I don't really *Need* OS 7. Perhaps if it were not for these, I would chance it. I know All in One macs are pretty cheap (except I live in Tulare CA, A long ways from anywhere) > >> Just because I don't want to take a chance of RUINING the ONE Mac SE I >> have. EASY for you to say. You've got random machines stacked to the >> roof. I've seen them. > > You want another? Yes please - or perhaps a powerbook - tradya > >> There are dangerous voltages on the analog board of that machine. >> Perhaps even FATAL voltages. > > You're more likely to get hit by a car than get zapped by your > Macintosh > if you take simple precautions, like unplugging it from the wall for > example. Yes I already know to unplug it and let it sit unplugged overnight or for a few hours at least. The CRT is a big capacitor and if it is not properly drianed it can throw you across the room. (well at least TV crts can.) > >> On top of that you know nothing of my electronics repair skills, I >> know >> what my limits may be. I would not want to break one of the SIM >> holders. > > Take a chance. > like I said - easy for you to say > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 20 14:50:29 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41265605.8000603@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > >>On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >> >>>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case >>>>cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean >>>>evil >>>>nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something >>>>inside >>>>and that would be bad. >>> >>>What kind of crap attitude is that? >> >>What kind of crack is that Sellam. > > > It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not > accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared to > open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a > computer. That's bullshit. I have an IBM 9-track tabletop that isn't getting powered up till I get docs. Period. I don't feel like taking a chance with it, because it's a damn nice drive. Is that defeatist or lazy? Hardly. I've got several other working 9-tracks, I can't replace the IBM if I hose it, I can't repair it without the docs, and I can afford to leave that one sitting till I get the info I want. Looks to me like Ron's in the same shape. The SE *works*, as-is. If he wants to leave it in a working state till he can learn more about it, who are you to call him derogatory names? Doc From cb at mythtech.net Fri Aug 20 14:53:36 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >Perhaps the danger is not as bas as I make it out to be, but, and I >know you probably >did not know this, I am jobless right now.. If I do break anything I >can't afford to >replace it. That and the fact that the machine seems to run really >well on OS 6 >and I have found many fun things on the net that also run on OS6. I fully understand your reluctance. I can say that if you decide to try it, and you break something, it should be fairly trivial to track down another SE for free (I for one have a half dozen I don't need, and I'm sure Sellam has a half dozen pallets of them!) But I still understand. >I'll try installing the OS7 I'll be getting soon - but perhaps it won't >work, so >back to OS 6. no problem. OS 7 will probably not even boot with only 2 MB of ram. I think the MINIMUM you will get it to boot with is 2.5 (which you may actually have, it was very common to go to 2.5 instead of 2, because you just left two of the 256k simms in place when adding two 1 MB ones). However, even at 2.5 MB, System 7 will be almost unusable. 4 MB really is the minimum you can get away with. But honestly, if you can find fun things to do with System 6 (and there are tons), then stick with it. It will run MUCH faster, and be MUCH more stable on an SE then System 7 will be no matter how much RAM you can cram in there. -chris From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 15:07:42 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: References: <063b01c486e7$5c75ae00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <4126762E.16.39BE8706@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 15:35 meinte David V. Corbin: > >>> He'd heard of France, but never met anyone from there. I > >>> feel the same way about North Dakota :-). > Ahhh, but how do you KNOW if you meet someone from North Dakota [or for fans > of Dan Brown, know if they ARE North Dakota...] Well, for starters, IS there a North Dakota? I mean, couln't it be one of the things where THEY want us to belive something wich just isn't real? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 20 15:21:08 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093033268.1881.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 19:28, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > A quick test just now (using Opera; the previous time would have been IE > > - version 4 probably - in a work environment) shows that this is still > > the case. I'm not sure if it's Opera being clever and guessing at stuff > > to stick on the front and end of whatever's in the address bar, or a > > function of some transparent web proxy somewhere within my ISP. > > I thought IE assumes you mean "www.kkk.com" if you just type in "kkk", but > I just tested that theory and it didn't work in IE6. I was pretty sure it > used to work this way. Well, with a bit of luck they've made it an option in IE6 (it wasn't user-controllable in whatever version of IE I stumbled across this in way back when) and just defaulted it to disabled. I've since found that it's user-controllable in Opera (umm, 7 I think I'm using), but defaults to on. cheers Jules From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Aug 20 15:33:27 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <4126762E.16.39BE8706@localhost> References: <063b01c486e7$5c75ae00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <4126762E.16.39BE8706@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > > Well, for starters, IS there a North Dakota? It's right on top of South Dakota, Hans... Cheers Geography John From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 15:41:02 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread References: <063b01c486e7$5c75ae00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <4126762E.16.39BE8706@localhost> Message-ID: <06ac01c486f6$02594c60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > >>> He'd heard of France, but never met anyone from there. I > > >>> feel the same way about North Dakota :-). > > > Ahhh, but how do you KNOW if you meet someone from North Dakota [or for fans > > of Dan Brown, know if they ARE North Dakota...] > > Well, for starters, IS there a North Dakota? > I mean, couln't it be one of the things where > THEY want us to belive something wich just isn't > real? I used to doubt the existence of North and South Dakota, but now I have been to South Dakota, so I have to concede that North Dakota may exist as well. South Dakota was this weird place with a lot of bikers, and someone defaced an entire bluff with huge busts of dead people. Nearby was this other place where they were trying to do it again with American Indians or something. :-) Vince From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 15:44:34 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread References: Message-ID: <06b101c486f6$80afd3e0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > >>> He'd heard of France, but never met anyone from there. I > >>> feel the same way about North Dakota :-). > >>> > Ahhh, but how do you KNOW if you meet someone from North Dakota [or for fans > of Dan Brown, know if they ARE North Dakota...] I can't tell them from Minnesotans; hence the possibility that there is no North Dakota, or that it is a suburb of Minnesota, or something. :-). Vince From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 20 15:26:41 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41264204.9040001@mdrconsult.com> <20040820210155.68515279.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> <41264204.9040001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200408202050.QAA01726@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [about http://exmaple.com/ vs http://www.example.com/] [Doc Shipley ] > First, as referenced by "http://www.mydomain.tld", "www.mydomain.tld" > is NOT a subdomain, it's the FQDN (Fully Qualified Domain Name) of an > individual host. What's the difference? That's a serious question. What is your definition of a subdomain, as distinct from an "FQDN of an individual host"? > Second, resolving a domain name as a host breaks RFC definitions and > recommendations. Which ones? [Jochen Kunz ] > [L]earn the difference between a (Full Qualified) Host Name and a > Domain Name. What _is_ the difference? As far as I can tell, a host name is just a domain name that happens to correspond to a host in some sense (usually by way of an address). > IP numbers refer to hosts (FQDN) and vice versa. ...huh? Some IP addresses refer to nothing at all. Some IP addresses refer to individual hosts. Some IP addresses refer to multiple hosts (think a large load-balanced server farm). And that's not even considering IP addresses that have different meaning to different places (any RFC-1918 address, or anything in 127/8). Some hosts have no addresses (though we can probably ignore them for our purposes). Some hosts have exactly one. Some have more than one. Also, equating hosts to FQDNs, as your parenthetical comment does, is incorrect, unless you are trying to redefine one or both of the terms. Some FQDNs do not refer to anything; some refer to exactly one machine; some refer to multiple machines - and some machines have no FQDN, some have exactly one, and some have more than one. Similar remarks are true of the mapping between FQDNs and IP addresses. > Hosts are the leaves in the hierarchical DNS name space tree, where > domains are branches in the name space. Services run on hosts so > myserver.mydomain.tld is the correct way. Whatever gives you the idea that hosts have to be leaves of the DNS tree, that only leaves may have addresses, or be used as machine names? I can't recall ever seeing any such requirement, nor even recommendation, nor can I see any basis for one. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 20 15:55:06 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040819094732.052df1d8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040820214808.0563b610@pop.freeserve.net> At 00:15 20/08/2004, Tony Duell wrote: >My experience suggests that people are naturally curious about things, >but that schools are designed to remove that curiosity. Fortunately it >didn't work in my case :-). I learnt almost nothing at school -- >everything I now use I taught myself (thankfully, from books that were a >lot more advanced than th eaverage school textbook). I must agree totally. The only things school contributed to my career path was the TRS-80 Model 1's we were allowed to book time on at lunchtime and after school. [I never did find out if there was actually a class that used them.] I'd previously been doing electronics as a hobby, this shifted me into computing (with an electronics bent - I was quite happy to build up a ZX81 kit, etc) My skills ever since have been totally self-taught, and I think they are better for it. (Just makes it harder to find a new job when I can't show them pretty pieces of paper..) Rob From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Aug 20 14:52:24 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040820122344.00a8fec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> AFAIK spreadsheets are a fairly old engineering practice, originally done manually on paper and slowly ported to automation and computers. What about the old accounting machines, they are sort of spreadsheets. From MGemeny at pgcps.org Fri Aug 20 15:54:18 2004 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: HP2100a VS HP2100s Message-ID: Here?s a question for you guys. One of my HP2000 friends asked me what the difference was between a 2100a and a 2100s. Now, I have done a fair amount of maintenance on both and I can?t recall that I ever paid any attention to any difference between the two. Does anyone know of any differences between the two other than the name on the front plate? Thanks, Mike Gemeny From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 16:08:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: OT: re:Dakota. In-Reply-To: <4126762E.16.39BE8706@localhost> Message-ID: Hans wrote: >>> >>> > Ahhh, but how do you KNOW if you meet someone from North >>> Dakota [or >>> > for fans of Dan Brown, know if they ARE North Dakota...] >>> >>> Well, for starters, IS there a North Dakota? >>> I mean, couln't it be one of the things where THEY want us >>> to belive something which just isn't real? >>> I can personally attest that both Dakotas are quite real. I have been there. Since VCF East you should be convinced that I am real. Of course I could be a member of the conspiracy to promote the Dakotas.... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 20 16:10:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <06b101c486f6$80afd3e0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> I can't tell them from Minnesotans; hence the possibility >>> that there is no North Dakota, or that it is a suburb of >>> Minnesota, or something. >>> According to Garrison Keller [host of The Praire Home Companion, EVERYTHING is a suburb of Minnesota! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 20 16:04:10 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: HP2100a VS HP2100s References: Message-ID: <01a801c486f9$3d53d760$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Mike wrote... > what the difference was between a 2100a and a 2100s. Now, I have There really isn't any difference, sort of. The 2100S came with a set of options that the 2100A didn't come with by default but which could be ordered with the 2100A. I forget which options, perhaps hardware FP. In addition, the 2100S had sockets on A1 & A2 for addon microcode, which many 2100A's didn't have. If you wanted to add microcode to the A you got a new rev of A1 or A2 card that had sockets (effectively turning it into an S - sort of). Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Aug 20 13:57:39 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma Message-ID: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> Is this the real thing ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3284&item=226295693 8&rd=1 Anyone with deep pockets ? Geoff. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Aug 20 16:22:20 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: HP2100a VS HP2100s In-Reply-To: <01a801c486f9$3d53d760$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <01a801c486f9$3d53d760$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <41266B8C.3010107@gifford.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Mike wrote... >>what the difference was between a 2100a and a 2100s. Now, I have > There really isn't any difference, sort of. > > The 2100S came with a set of options that the 2100A didn't come with by > default but which could be ordered with the 2100A. I forget which options, > perhaps hardware FP. Surely the 2100S has user-writeable microcode? The front panel says "Microprogrammable Systems Computer": http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/hp2100s.htm -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 20 16:21:26 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <1093025892.1881.15.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1093025892.1881.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040820221917.0563b758@pop.freeserve.net> At 19:18 20/08/2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >A quick test just now (using Opera; the previous time would have been IE >- version 4 probably - in a work environment) shows that this is still >the case. I'm not sure if it's Opera being clever and guessing at stuff >to stick on the front and end of whatever's in the address bar, or a >function of some transparent web proxy somewhere within my ISP. In opera. Tools > Preferences > Network > [Server Name Completion] Allows you to specify what (if anything) Opera will add to the front and end if it can't find the host you asked for. IE does support this too, but I think it's buried in registry entries somewhere. Rob From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 20 16:21:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma Message-ID: <200408202121.OAA05802@clulw009.amd.com> Hi This is not a WW2 machine. This was made many years after that. It is an Enigma design with more wheels than the ones the Germans used. It is a ridiculous price for a later machine, regardless of condition. It is most likely military surplus but not WW2. Dwight >From: "Geoffrey Thomas" > >Is this the real thing ? > >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3284&item=226295693 >8&rd=1 > >Anyone with deep pockets ? > >Geoff. > > From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Aug 20 16:23:03 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) References: <05b201c486d4$67962b60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <16678.14877.572576.297570@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <008401c486fb$f13f7e80$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 6:51 PM Subject: RE: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) > >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: > > >>>> Well, there *is* still only one official language here...except > >>>> I think in California. > > David> And Florida, and New York and ....... > > Actually, there isn't any official language in the USA. There's one > generally used by long tradition (English) and a large quantity of > others used to a lesser extent. Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Basque, > Navajo, ... > > paul > And these :- http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWCRAWFORD/question.htm http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,306711,00.html Geoff. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 20 16:31:59 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma In-Reply-To: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <1093037519.1881.34.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 18:57, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Is this the real thing ? Not a German Enigma, no. (e.g.: http://web.syr.edu/~nrsmit01/webquest/enigma.jpg), but real in the sense that it is an Enigma :) I can't see an equivalent to the plugboard that the German machines have, so it's presumably a much simpler device. German 3-rotor Enigma machines are actually pretty common, or so I'm told - I suppose they just normally appear in traditional auction houses rather than on ebay. That ebay one seems like quite a high price. I'm not sure if that's because it's a) Swiss rather than German, b) in extremely good condition or c) because it's on ebay. I suspect the latter... cheers Jules From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 20 16:33:07 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c486fd$48d06000$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Typical!. Prevent something that can actually be quite useful because I'm trying to stop myself typing "Part P Building Regs." just to see what happens. Obviously I've failed :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 20 16:35:07 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma In-Reply-To: <200408202121.OAA05802@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > after that. It is an Enigma design with more wheels > than the ones the Germans used. It is a ridiculous > price for a later machine, regardless of condition. No, 4500 pounds is roughly market price. Enigmas can easily fetch 15000 pounds. There is no telling what a US machine (SIGABA) would fetch. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 20 16:39:05 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma Message-ID: <200408202139.OAA05810@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If you look closely, you'll notice that it has many more wheels ( rotors ) than three or four. It is a later machine. Dwight >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 18:57, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> Is this the real thing ? > >Not a German Enigma, no. (e.g.: >http://web.syr.edu/~nrsmit01/webquest/enigma.jpg), but real in the sense >that it is an Enigma :) > >I can't see an equivalent to the plugboard that the German machines >have, so it's presumably a much simpler device. > >German 3-rotor Enigma machines are actually pretty common, or so I'm >told - I suppose they just normally appear in traditional auction houses >rather than on ebay. > >That ebay one seems like quite a high price. I'm not sure if that's >because it's a) Swiss rather than German, b) in extremely good condition >or c) because it's on ebay. I suspect the latter... > >cheers > >Jules > > From tomj at wps.com Fri Aug 20 16:41:32 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <4123AD87.16672.2EDEBA9F@localhost> References: <41237B8A.4030703@srv.net> <4123AD87.16672.2EDEBA9F@localhost> Message-ID: <1093038091.4799.8.camel@dhcp-248027> On Wed, 2004-08-18 at 10:27, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, I don't want to destroy your impression, but organizeing > data(bases) as rows and columns is as old as the punch card. I can't even believe this is a real thread; punched paper cards is the paradigm, and 18th century jacquard loom (what, 1730?), hey, fabric is 'row' and 'column' aka warp & weft is the precise mapping of jacquard cards to reality. Los Alamos research into ahem "metal driven explosive systems", was done with electromechanical card storage and calculation, and explicitly, in the modern sense, compiled runs and explosion simulation data (millisecond by millisecond) as physical trays of data. Clearly and intentionally a database in the modern sense, and they rushed like hell into the tape/disk era ASAP. ANd that's 1940's. VisiCalc is of course famous, but all those IBM RJE type terminals have a direct mapping between screen columns/rows and punched card format. As a general rule: nearly nothing was first done on beige boxes. Nearly every computer paradigm is pushing 40, 50 years old minimum. Look at the old BELFLIX graphics, CPC II "transciever" phone-line-data transmission, lookahead-carry, blah blah it was done in wood, bone, brass, and vacuum. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 20 16:46:13 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: <000b01c486fd$48d06000$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: Message-ID: <41268D45.14312.3A18B8DE@localhost> Am 20 Aug 2004 22:33 meinte Antonio Carlini: > > Typical!. Prevent something that can actually be quite useful because > I'm trying to stop myself typing "Part P Building Regs." just > to see what happens. Obviously I've failed :-) Ok, I b(i/y)te ... what is that thing? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 20 16:46:45 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma References: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <16678.28997.708000.844418@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Geoffrey" == Geoffrey Thomas writes: Geoffrey> Is this the real thing ? Geoffrey> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3284&item=2262956938&rd=1 Bizarre. Ebay does not allow me to see that item. It says "due to restrictions in your home country" which is utter nonsense. It's possible that the UK has export restrictions, but that's not what it said... >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: Dwight> Hi This is not a WW2 machine. This was made many years after Dwight> that. It is an Enigma design with more wheels than the ones Dwight> the Germans used. It is a ridiculous price for a later Dwight> machine, regardless of condition. It is most likely military Dwight> surplus but not WW2. What does it actually show? Standard Enigmas have 3 wheels, but a few had four, so if it's a four wheel unit it's a possibility that it could be a WW2 unit. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 20 16:52:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: Enigma Message-ID: <200408202152.OAA05820@clulw009.amd.com> Hi From the picture I'm looking at, it has 10 wheels or rotors. This is not a WW2 unit. What country are you in? Dwight >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Geoffrey" == Geoffrey Thomas writes: > > Geoffrey> Is this the real thing ? > Geoffrey> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3284&item=2262956938&rd =1 > >Bizarre. Ebay does not allow me to see that item. It says "due to >restrictions in your home country" which is utter nonsense. It's >possible that the UK has export restrictions, but that's not what it >said... > >>>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: > > Dwight> Hi This is not a WW2 machine. This was made many years after > Dwight> that. It is an Enigma design with more wheels than the ones > Dwight> the Germans used. It is a ridiculous price for a later > Dwight> machine, regardless of condition. It is most likely military > Dwight> surplus but not WW2. > >What does it actually show? Standard Enigmas have 3 wheels, but a few >had four, so if it's a four wheel unit it's a possibility that it >could be a WW2 unit. > > paul > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 20 17:04:55 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:22 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <0CEC792F-F2DE-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0CEC792F-F2DE-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200408201704.55075.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 20 August 2004 14:20, Ron Hudson wrote: > Thanks Chris, > > Perhaps the danger is not as bas as I make it out to be, but, and I > know you probably > did not know this, I am jobless right now.. If I do break anything I > can't afford to > replace it. That and the fact that the machine seems to run really > well on OS 6 > and I have found many fun things on the net that also run on OS6. > > I'll try installing the OS7 I'll be getting soon - but perhaps it > won't work, so > back to OS 6. no problem. If you want another Mac SE I'm sure I could find you one for the cost of shipping... : ) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 20 17:21:58 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Enigma In-Reply-To: <16678.28997.708000.844418@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000d01c48704$1bdf6260$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Bizarre. Ebay does not allow me to see that item. It says "due to >restrictions in your home country" which is utter nonsense. It's >possible that the UK has export restrictions, but that's not what it >said... Don't you think it's more likely that the Dept. Of Homeland Security is responsible ... after all, they can't be sure that you're not a terrorist :-) As for UK export restrictions, who knows? The seller seems to be willing to ship world-wide! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 20 17:28:31 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: <41268D45.14312.3A18B8DE@localhost> Message-ID: <000e01c48705$05dbbe90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Am 20 Aug 2004 22:33 meinte Antonio Carlini: > > > > Typical!. Prevent something that can actually be quite > useful because > > I'm trying to stop myself typing "Part P Building Regs." just > > to see what happens. Obviously I've failed :-) > > > Ok, I b(i/y)te ... what is that thing? New building regs allegedly coming into force at the end of the year in the UK. They will restrict the amount of rewiring (of fixed wiring) that a normal householder (i.e. not a member of the NECEIC or similar trade body) will be able to do. Nothing can be done in the kitchen or bathroom, and only minor works (e.g. a new spur) elsewhere. Given that the number of people killed or seriously injured annually in the UK (because of a faulty installation) is approximately equal to the number of people in the US who die by drowning while jaywalking, it's pretty obvious who lobbied for this one :-) Tony's comment just reminded me of something else that you can't do for no good reason. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 20 17:33:28 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Enigma Message-ID: <200408202233.PAA05840@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Antonio Carlini" > >>Bizarre. Ebay does not allow me to see that item. It says "due to >>restrictions in your home country" which is utter nonsense. It's >>possible that the UK has export restrictions, but that's not what it >>said... > >Don't you think it's more likely that the Dept. Of Homeland >Security is responsible ... after all, they can't be sure >that you're not a terrorist :-) > >As for UK export restrictions, who knows? The seller >seems to be willing to ship world-wide! > >Antonio > > Hi I'm in the US and have no problem looking at it?? Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 17:59:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > Nonetheless, the point stays, that, if a second level domain > has only one host, there is no need to create computer names > within. Nor any standard asking that, if you run a specific > service, you have to add names. Sure there is. What if you want to logically segregate different features that your one host offers, for the convenience of your visitors? I have an example in mind that may well be unleashed > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? Hey, what's all this foreign speak!? Are you guys plotting something unsavory? Damn Mexicans. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 18:01:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41265605.8000603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > > > >>On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> > >> > >>>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > >>>>cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean > >>>>evil > >>>>nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something > >>>>inside > >>>>and that would be bad. > >>> > >>>What kind of crap attitude is that? > >> > >>What kind of crack is that Sellam. > > > > > > It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not > > accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared to > > open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a > > computer. > > Looks to me like Ron's in the same shape. The SE *works*, as-is. If > he wants to leave it in a working state till he can learn more about it, > who are you to call him derogatory names? Doc, this is a serious question: how come you always interpret what I say to be an attack on a particular person rather than what it is? Please point out in the message above where I am calling Ron "derogatory names". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 18:03:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Perhaps if it were not for these, I would chance it. I know All in One > macs are pretty cheap (except I live in Tulare CA, A long ways from > anywhere) I knew you were back in the "area" but Tulare is a ways off :( > > You want another? > > Yes please - or perhaps a powerbook - tradya Actually, I have plenty of each. I was going to offer that you come over with your MacSE and not only would we crack it up (and I could show you the folly of your trepidation) but I'd fill it with whatever RAM it could take. If you plan to come to the VCF then let me know and we'll setup a special upgrade clinic on-site ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 20 18:13:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <06ac01c486f6$02594c60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, vrs wrote: > I used to doubt the existence of North and South Dakota, but now I have been > to South Dakota, so I have to concede that North Dakota may exist as well. It might be a ploy to make you THINK there's a North Dakota. I mean, look at Virginia. You'd think there'd be an East Virginia because there's a West Virginia, but no, they defied protocol and confused the hell out of everyone when Virginia split and the westerners went with West Virginia. However, the original Virginians were going to have none of that and snubbed the West Virginians (some say it was a backstabbing double-cross!) when they stayed with just Virginia! I suppose you're also going to tell me there's a South Carolina! HA! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 20:27:03 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Misc. |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| OpenVMS Docs for Sale Message-ID: <20040820.182703.1800.8.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Once again, I would favour takers for the whole lot, but would consider splitting them up if no one wants all of them . . . I can ship book rate to US addresses. These titles are all published by |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| Guide to DECthreads, Nov. 1996 VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual, May 1993 OpenVMS EDT Reference Manual, May 1993 Guide to Managing Pathworks Licenses, Feb. 1995 Pathworks Ver. 5.1 Migration Guide, Aug 1994 DECwindows Motif Ver. 1.2-4 for OpenVMS Installation Guide, Apr. 1996 Pathworks for OpenVMS (NetWare) Server Admin Guide, Feb. 1995 DEC C Language Reference Manual, Nov 1995 DEC C Run-Time Library Reference Manual for OpenVMS, Nov. 1995 DEC C User's Guide for OpenVMS Systems, Nov. 1996 Asking $10 (plus postage) for the lot. If no takers, they get turned into litterbox filler . . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 18:30:00 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Enigma In-Reply-To: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Is this the real thing ? > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&category=3284&item=226295693 > 8&rd=1 > > Anyone with deep pockets ? > > Geoff. > > Ebay.uk says I can't look at this because I am from the wrong > country....? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 20 18:16:57 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay In-Reply-To: "bips" "RE: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay" (Aug 20, 9:38) References: Message-ID: <10408210016.ZM25550@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 20 2004, 9:38, bips wrote: > I have an Exidy with S-100 and floppy drives. I have missed placed my > floppy > disks. They had CP/M, an editor, assembler compiler, and utilities. I would > be very interested in obtaining a copy of same. My floppies were 5.25, > single sided, 97K. John It's good to hear from another Sorcerer owner, but unfortunately, I don't have disks for mine, so I can't help. Sorry... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 20 18:31:50 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Enigma In-Reply-To: <200408202233.PAA05840@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001001c4870d$de7fd260$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I'm in the US and have no problem looking at it?? > Dwight They have limited resources so obviously they cannot implement everything over night. Stage one blocks and monitors people with funny foreign names ... you're probably stage two (that's people who miss smileys and so can't be that suspicious :-)). FWIW If I log on to one of the work machines that lives in the US I can see the auction from there too - so maybe Paul really is being watched :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 18:33:46 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41265605.8000603@mdrconsult.com> References: <41265605.8000603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6156B63F-F301-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and >>>>> case >>>>> cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean >>>>> evil >>>>> nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something >>>>> inside >>>>> and that would be bad. >>>> >>>> What kind of crap attitude is that? >>> >>> What kind of crack is that Sellam. >> It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just >> not >> accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too >> scared to >> open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of >> a >> computer. > > That's bullshit. > > I have an IBM 9-track tabletop that isn't getting powered up till I > get docs. Period. I don't feel like taking a chance with it, because > it's a damn nice drive. > > Is that defeatist or lazy? Hardly. I've got several other working > 9-tracks, I can't replace the IBM if I hose it, I can't repair it > without the docs, and I can afford to leave that one sitting till I > get the info I want. > > Looks to me like Ron's in the same shape. The SE *works*, as-is. > If he wants to leave it in a working state till he can learn more > about it, who are you to call him derogatory names? > > > Doc > > Thanks Doc. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 20:38:41 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Borland Turbo Pascal Manual Set (7.0) Message-ID: <20040820.183847.1800.9.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I think this is a complete Turbo Pascal Manual Set for ver 7.0: Programmers Reference Language Guide User's Guide TurboVision Programming Guide If you need the floppies also, ask. This one is free plus postage, will be tossed if no takers. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 18:41:17 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408201704.55075.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0CEC792F-F2DE-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <200408201704.55075.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6E324598-F302-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 20 August 2004 14:20, Ron Hudson wrote: >> Thanks Chris, >> >> Perhaps the danger is not as bas as I make it out to be, but, and I >> know you probably >> did not know this, I am jobless right now.. If I do break anything I >> can't afford to >> replace it. That and the fact that the machine seems to run really >> well on OS 6 >> and I have found many fun things on the net that also run on OS6. >> >> I'll try installing the OS7 I'll be getting soon - but perhaps it >> won't work, so >> back to OS 6. no problem. > > If you want another Mac SE I'm sure I could find you one for the cost > of > shipping... : ) Thanks Patrick If anyone near me - (San Jose,CA) If you have an SE with the full 4mb and want to trade, I'll trade you. (I have a wife to keep happy and too many machines around will make her *un*happy) I can also go to LA, but I will need specific instructions I always get really lost in LA. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 20 18:42:51 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: OFF (was: Radiation (was: : Help with question about In-Reply-To: <000e01c48705$05dbbe90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <41268D45.14312.3A18B8DE@localhost> <000e01c48705$05dbbe90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040821004051.033df600@pop.freeserve.net> At 23:28 20/08/2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > Am 20 Aug 2004 22:33 meinte Antonio Carlini: > > > > > > Typical!. Prevent something that can actually be quite > > useful because > > > I'm trying to stop myself typing "Part P Building Regs." just > > > to see what happens. Obviously I've failed :-) > > > > > > Ok, I b(i/y)te ... what is that thing? > >New building regs allegedly coming into force at the >end of the year in the UK. They will restrict the >amount of rewiring (of fixed wiring) that a normal >householder (i.e. not a member of the NECEIC or similar >trade body) will be able to do. Nothing can be done >in the kitchen or bathroom, and only minor works >(e.g. a new spur) elsewhere. How would they know? Especially if they were actually done to a suitable standard. (and god knows I've encountered enough bad electrical workmanship from "professionals") From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 18:46:19 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2266FF2C-F303-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 4:01 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and >>>>>> case >>>>>> cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, >>>>>> mean >>>>>> evil >>>>>> nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something >>>>>> inside >>>>>> and that would be bad. >>>>> >>>>> What kind of crap attitude is that? >>>> >>>> What kind of crack is that Sellam. >>> >>> >>> It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just >>> not >>> accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too >>> scared to >>> open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection >>> of a >>> computer. >> >> Looks to me like Ron's in the same shape. The SE *works*, as-is. >> If >> he wants to leave it in a working state till he can learn more about >> it, >> who are you to call him derogatory names? > > Doc, this is a serious question: how come you always interpret what I > say > to be an attack on a particular person rather than what it is? Please > point out in the message above where I am calling Ron "derogatory > names". Sorry Doc, it's a very fine line, but he only called my post derogatory names, "lazy and defeatist". Even so, I think He was a little out of line - there are dangerous voltages, and messing around inside there I could well render my Mac non-operable. All that aside, just because I frequent the group does not mean that I am a whiz with a soldering iron. Where I am living now I don't even have a workbench. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 16:51:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 20, 4 07:52:01 am Message-ID: > > > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > > cracker > > That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of dead > Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. The Xcellite System 99 TX15 bit + X5 extension + 99-1 handle will open the Mac+ (at least), and I guess other classic-Macs. I've never needed a case cracker -- pressing on the connectors (and battery in the Mac+) has always got the cover off for me. -tony k From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 18:14:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <0CEC792F-F2DE-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 20, 4 12:20:52 pm Message-ID: > > > Thanks Chris, > > Perhaps the danger is not as bas as I make it out to be, but, and I > know you probably > did not know this, I am jobless right now.. If I do break anything I FWIW, I've been jobless for the last 7 years. > can't afford to > replace it. That and the fact that the machine seems to run really And a couple of weeks back I borrowed a _very rare_ machine (there are something like 13 left in the world) with the sole purpose of pulling it apart to invenstigage the design. It was working perfectly before I took it apart -- there was no real need to do it other than my curiousity (and just in case you're wondering, it worked fine after I put it back togeter). Had I done something stupid, I am not sure how I would have replaced it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 18:20:06 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 20, 4 12:41:01 pm Message-ID: > >> There are dangerous voltages on the analog board of that machine. > >> Perhaps even FATAL voltages. > > > > You're more likely to get hit by a car than get zapped by your > > Macintosh > > if you take simple precautions, like unplugging it from the wall for > > example. > > Yes I already know to unplug it and let it sit unplugged overnight or > for > a few hours at least. The CRT is a big capacitor and if it is not It's actually a fairly small capacitor electrically, the problem is it charges up to about 12kV (it is used as the smoothing capacitor for the EHT supply, of course). > properly > drianed it can throw you across the room. (well at least TV crts can.) However the charge is unlikely to be fatal. I have been zapped a couple of times, the worst was from the EHT supply in a Barco monitor when the unit was switched on, and when a transistor on the EHT regulator PCB had failed so the EHT was sitting at about 32kV. It deceid to flash over to my fingers. And yes, I lept across the room. However, it is _darn hard_ to connect yourself to the EHT in a Mac (or in any other monitor) unless you are working on that area. The EHT connector has a nice insulated rubber cover on it. The EHT rectifier is inside the flyback transformer -- there are just no bare connectiosn to touch. The only problem comes if you disconnect the EHT connector from the CRT to remove the CRT or the analogue board (or replace the flyback transformer). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 18:24:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040820214808.0563b610@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Aug 20, 4 09:55:06 pm Message-ID: > I must agree totally. The only things school contributed to my career path > was the TRS-80 Model 1's we were allowed to book time on at lunchtime and Didn't even do that. I had a Model 1 long before the school had a computer. I think I'd even hand-wired my own Z80 system before I used a school computer. Somehow typing in BASIC programs was less interesting than doing a bit of interfacing or writing machine code (both of which were forbidden on the school machines!). > after school. [I never did find out if there was actually a class that > used them.] I'd previously been doing electronics as a hobby, this shifted > me into computing (with an electronics bent - I was quite happy to build up > a ZX81 kit, etc) My skills ever since have been totally self-taught, and I > think they are better for it. (Just makes it harder to find a new job when > I can't show them pretty pieces of paper..) Yeah, I have that problem too... Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 18:28:15 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41265605.8000603@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Aug 20, 4 12:50:29 pm Message-ID: > > It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not > > accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared to > > open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a > > computer. > > That's bullshit. > > I have an IBM 9-track tabletop that isn't getting powered up till I > get docs. Period. I don't feel like taking a chance with it, because > it's a damn nice drive. It's one thing to be senibly cautious -- to read the manuals before taking something apart (although to be honest, I've never had a problem just pulling the case). To check PSUs on dummy load before powering the machine up (this one is a lot more important IMHO -- a defective PSU (and I've had them) could wipe out every chip in the machine. To use scratch media before mounting the only copy of the distribution disk. And so on. It's quite another to be afraid to _ever_ pull the case, power the machine up, mount the distribution disk, etc. You'll never do anything unless you have a go. I was once told 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He never designed anything'. It's a view I totally agree with. You _will_ make mistages. The thing is to be careful with irreplacable (to you) stuff, not to never do anything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 18:07:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 20, 4 10:31:24 am Message-ID: > > Just because I don't want to take > a chance of RUINING the ONE Mac SE I have. EASY for you to say. You've I doubt very much you'd ruin it. I've dismantled hundreds of machines (many a lot rarer than any production Mac) and never done permanent damage. > got > random machines stacked to the roof. I've seen them. > > There are dangerous voltages on the analog board of that machine. > Perhaps > even FATAL voltages. I will admit I've never worked on a Mac SE. But I can assure you that there are no fatal voltages on the analogue board of a Mac+ (this is the deflection/PSU board) that will remain for more than a couple of minutes after disconnecting it from the mains. The EHT to the CRT is impossible to touch by accident, the few hundred volts on the electron gun electrodes and in the primary side of the SMPSU (the latter could well be fatal with the machine plugged in, BTW) will discharge fairly quickly. > > On top of that you know nothing of my electronics repair skills, I know > what my limits may be. I would not want to break one of the SIM holders. In which case you just desolder it and solder in a new one. And no, I don't know what your limits are now. But I can, and will, get rather annoyed with people who don't want to learn and who don't want to have a go. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 18:50:46 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Tredennick (was: u-370 is not a recoded 68000 (was: IBM 5100)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040820164943.V15973@shell.lmi.net> > >>> > OK, Paul has pointed out there isn't actually an official > >>> language, > >>> > but what is the other major language in New York? > >>> Brooklynese > Hey, Are YOU talking to me? Are you TALKING to me? Are you talking to ME? Hey youse! Whachoo lookin at? From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 20 18:51:15 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread References: Message-ID: <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > I used to doubt the existence of North and South Dakota, but now I have been > > to South Dakota, so I have to concede that North Dakota may exist as well. > > It might be a ploy to make you THINK there's a North Dakota. I mean, look > at Virginia. You'd think there'd be an East Virginia because there's a > West Virginia, but no, they defied protocol and confused the hell out of > everyone when Virginia split and the westerners went with West Virginia. > However, the original Virginians were going to have none of that and > snubbed the West Virginians (some say it was a backstabbing double-cross!) > when they stayed with just Virginia! That could be. Still if the world is rich enough to have South Dakota in it, it might just have North Dakota, too. Probably with fewer bikers, and more Minnesotans, though :-). > I suppose you're also going to tell me there's a South Carolina! HA! Nope, I can't vouch for the existence of either of the Carolinas... Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 20 18:51:20 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Enigma Message-ID: <200408202351.QAA05886@clulw009.amd.com> Hi It is more likely that his service includes other countries that restrict encription machines. I don't think the US restricts looking at encription machines. Dwight >From: "Antonio Carlini" > >> I'm in the US and have no problem looking at it?? >> Dwight > >They have limited resources so obviously they cannot >implement everything over night. Stage one blocks >and monitors people with funny foreign names ... >you're probably stage two (that's people who >miss smileys and so can't be that suspicious :-)). > >FWIW If I log on to one of the work machines that >lives in the US I can see the auction from there >too - so maybe Paul really is being watched :-) > >Antonio > >-- > >--------------- > >Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org > > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 18:52:48 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A6D7AAB-F304-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 4:03 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Perhaps if it were not for these, I would chance it. I know All in One >> macs are pretty cheap (except I live in Tulare CA, A long ways from >> anywhere) > > I knew you were back in the "area" but Tulare is a ways off :( > >>> You want another? >> >> Yes please - or perhaps a powerbook - tradya > > Actually, I have plenty of each. I was going to offer that you come > over > with your MacSE and not only would we crack it up (and I could show you > the folly of your trepidation) but I'd fill it with whatever RAM it > could > take. > > If you plan to come to the VCF then let me know and we'll setup a > special > upgrade clinic on-site ;) Yeah, I want to come to VCF, but I can't promise anything. Bring along a spare with the full 4mb.. :^) Actually, - for you Sellam - I'll trade this **clean 2mb/20mb MAC SE FDHD** for a Classic with at least 4mb of memory :^) (I want that boot from OS ? in ROM thing) (What OS is in a Classic ROM anyway?) Anyway I am living in a very small 2br apartment so I am not collecting anymore (I had to give up Much of what I had collected to move back to CA from MO) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 18:54:09 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: References: <063b01c486e7$5c75ae00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <4126762E.16.39BE8706@localhost> Message-ID: <20040820165338.N15973@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, for starters, IS there a North Dakota? > It's right on top of South Dakota, Hans... I've been to both. They are real. Way too real. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Aug 20 18:54:32 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Radiation (was: : Help with question about web page In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040820214808.0563b610@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <20040820235432.GA2899@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Aug 21, 2004 at 12:24:10AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Somehow typing in BASIC programs was less interesting > than doing a bit of interfacing or writing machine code (both of which > were forbidden on the school machines!). I got in a little trouble at the library when I started bringing in bits of hardware to hang on the back the public PETs (via the User Port). The powers that be were also unfriendly to machine code because they were told that it could harm the computers (this is long before killer POKEs). That was at age 11. By 13, we had a PET at home. Problem solved. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Aug-2004 23:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -91.3 F (-68.5 C) Windchill -133.7 F (-92.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 053 Barometer 666.5 mb (11139. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 19:18:54 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2004, at 4:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Chris, >> >> Perhaps the danger is not as bas as I make it out to be, but, and I >> know you probably >> did not know this, I am jobless right now.. If I do break anything I > > FWIW, I've been jobless for the last 7 years. > >> can't afford to >> replace it. That and the fact that the machine seems to run really > > And a couple of weeks back I borrowed a _very rare_ machine (there are > something like 13 left in the world) with the sole purpose of pulling > it > apart to invenstigage the design. It was working perfectly before I > took > it apart -- there was no real need to do it other than my curiousity > (and > just in case you're wondering, it worked fine after I put it back > togeter). I'm glad it continued to work. I already know pretty much what the inside of my SE looks like. What kind of machine was it anyway? > > Had I done something stupid, I am not sure how I would have replaced > it. > > -tony > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 20 18:15:09 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:28:15 +0100 (BST) . Message-ID: <20040821002553.QAVZ1721.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message , Tony Duell writes: >I was once told 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He >never designed anything'. It's a view I totally agree with. You _will_ >make mistages. The thing is to be careful with irreplacable (to you) >stuff, not to never do anything. I certainly agree with that, though I wouldn't insist that everyone blow a chip as spectacularly as I did in college. I was working on a music synthesizer for one of my senior projects and had an op-amp that was to feed my final amplifier stage. For the time being, I was using an old tube radio that had been hacked as my final amplifier. There was some noticable 60Hz buzz, so I did the old trick of rotating the power plug. Well, I learned the hard way that it's power supply wasn't isolated when I heard a pop just moments before smelling the tell-tale smell of charred silicon. Of course, the plug was out of the socked before I turned to see a 14 pin DIP with a crater in the middle of it. The top of the package was about 6 inches away. I still have it as a trophy now [mumble] years later. Of course the day in my first job out of school when I hooked up the lightning simulator backwards killed more chips. Just none as spectacularly.... Brian L. Stuart P.S. If you've all heard that story before, I apologize. I'm starting to forget which ones I've already told. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Aug 20 19:34:29 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: HP 9133XV disc drive question Message-ID: <200408210034.i7L0YTWs028134@queen.cs.drexel.edu> "RHahm" wrote: > I recently aquired an HP 9133XV combination 3.5" floppy and 15M HD with an > HPIB interface and Amigo protocol. > > I tried to use the drive with an HP 86B and an HP 85B computer. The floppy > works fine but the computer will not recognize the hard drive. The HD seems > to spin up normally. Do you have the option 010 for your 9133XV. The HP product catalog implies that only opt 010 works with the Series 80. In general Series 80 computers cannot really deal with a hard drive. They only know about floppies, and since they have only one-level directories, there is little to be gained from large capacity hard drives. So HP cheated. Since (at that time) hard drives were small (5 to 10 Mb), they provided special firmware on the hard drive to create 4 hard partitions, each the size of the largest floppy drive recognized by the Series 80. So the HP 9133A 4.6 Mb hard drive is split into 4 1.2Mb volumes. However for late Series 80 models, HP did something else as well. An intriguing note in the HP catalog says: > The HP 9133B and the HP9134B are single volume 9.6M byte Winchesters > which can operate with the HP-85B or the HP-86B; they can also operate > with an HP-86A or HP-87 when used with an 00087-15012 Electronic Disc > ROM and ROM drawer. 9.6M byte Winchesters are supported under native > mode. What the ^%@#$@ does this mean? Does the Electronic Disc ROM contain code to soft partition a 9.6Mb volume? I do have an Electronic Disc ROM for my 87XM, but I have neither the documentation nor a suitable Winchester. Any clues are welcome. **vp From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 21:53:33 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Misc. |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| OpenVMS Docs for Sale Message-ID: <20040820.200345.1800.10.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> The DEC books have been claimed. Thank you for your attention . . . . Jeff On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:27:03 -0700 jeff.kaneko@juno.com writes: > > Once again, I would favour takers for the whole lot, but would > consider splitting them up if no one wants all of them . . . > I can ship book rate to US addresses. > > These titles are all published by |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| > > Guide to DECthreads, Nov. 1996 > VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual, May 1993 > OpenVMS EDT Reference Manual, May 1993 > Guide to Managing Pathworks Licenses, Feb. 1995 > Pathworks Ver. 5.1 Migration Guide, Aug 1994 > DECwindows Motif Ver. 1.2-4 for OpenVMS Installation Guide, Apr. > 1996 > Pathworks for OpenVMS (NetWare) Server Admin Guide, Feb. 1995 > DEC C Language Reference Manual, Nov 1995 > DEC C Run-Time Library Reference Manual for OpenVMS, Nov. 1995 > DEC C User's Guide for OpenVMS Systems, Nov. 1996 > > Asking $10 (plus postage) for the lot. If no takers, they get > turned into litterbox filler . . . . > > Jeff > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 20 20:27:03 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408210131.VAA03010@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It's one thing to be senibly cautious -- to read the manuals before > taking something apart [...]. To [...]. And so on. > It's quite another to be afraid to _ever_ pull the case, power the > machine up, mount the distribution disk, etc. You'll never do > anything unless you have a go. Yes, but one should get one's experience on less precious machines first. Now, it may be that this person doesn't _have_ any "less precious machines" to gain experience with. That sucks, yeah, but it's no reason for tearing a strip up one side and down the other for not risking damage to a precious machine anyway. If I had only one computer, no experience, and no way to afford to replace/repair it if I damaged it, I wouldn't be opening its case either. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 20:54:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "Ron Hudson" at Aug 20, 4 05:18:54 pm Message-ID: > I already know pretty much what the inside of my SE looks like. Yes, but I'll bet you've not traced out the full schematics :-) > > What kind of machine was it anyway? And HP95C calculator (look at www.hpmuseum.org for more details), and yes, I did trace out the schematics. Rather disapointing actually, it was what I would have expected. And that's by no means the rarest machine I've worked on. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 20 21:13:49 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: HP2100a VS HP2100s References: <01a801c486f9$3d53d760$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <41266B8C.3010107@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <005701c48724$7f7e69e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Surely the 2100S has user-writeable microcode? The front panel > says "Microprogrammable Systems Computer": See the rest of my 2nd paragraph previous :) The 2100S, from the factory, had sockets where you could plug in user burned microcode chips. The 2100A did not. However, if you ordered addon firmware for the 2100A, you could get the socketed version of the cards. If you mean user writeable microcode as in not having to burn your own chips, either the 2100A or 2100S could have that option board installed. Separately ordered and purchased option board, not to be confused with the open rom sockets on A1/A2. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 20 21:20:48 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: HP 12966 BACI Message-ID: <007c01c48725$79189390$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I seem to have misplaced my docs for this card, and my cable came apart so it needs to be rebuilt. Can't find it on bitsavers... does anyone have the docs in pdf for this card? Thanks! Jay West From passerm at umkc.edu Fri Aug 20 21:20:52 2004 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: OT: eBay "blocking" in re Enigma In-Reply-To: References: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: This has happened to me before with another item--it seems to be browser-centric, perhaps even ad-blocking centric. I can't see the item with Safari 1.2.3 or Opera 7.5.1, but the page loads fine with MSIE 5.2 (all Mac browsers on OS X). --Michael From wacarder at usit.net Fri Aug 20 21:53:48 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: RL02/RL01 drive rails needed Message-ID: Does anyone out there have any mounting rails for a DEC RL02 or RL01 drive? I have two good RL02 drives that I want to rack, but they are missing both the rails that go in the rack and on the drives. If anyone has rails they want to get rid of, please contact me off-list. Thanks, Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Fri Aug 20 22:02:57 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Looking for 11/34 parts Message-ID: I'm also looking for a spare set of 11/34 boards. Anyone got an 11/34 they wanna part out or find a good home for? My console board (M7859) is misbehaving and I need to find a good one. Contact me off list if you have anything of interest. Ashley From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 20 21:55:11 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE References: <2266FF2C-F303-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00a301c4872a$474818e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Sounds like you're taken care of, given the offers of replacement Mac's. I was going to offer you one too. Anyway, reread your subject line. It's "What fun from a Macintosh SE" not "Fear and Loathing with the Macintosh SE(tm)" John A. or "M. Night Shyamalan's Pandora's Box" From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 22:07:30 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040820200427.O15973@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, vrs wrote: > > I suppose you're also going to tell me there's a South Carolina! HA! > Nope, I can't vouch for the existence of either of the Carolinas... They exist. I'm not sure WHY South Carolina exists, but it does. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Aug 20 22:44:02 2004 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: Borland Turbo Pascal Manual Set (7.0) In-Reply-To: <20040820.183847.1800.9.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20040820.183847.1800.9.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20040821034402.GA4984@RawFedDogs.net> Jeff, On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 06:38:41PM -0700, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > I think this is a complete Turbo Pascal Manual Set for ver 7.0: > > Programmers Reference > Language Guide > User's Guide > TurboVision Programming Guide > > If you need the floppies also, ask. > > This one is free plus postage, will be tossed if no takers. > > > > Jeff I'll give the set a home, floppies and all. I haven't done anything with Turbo Pascal in years but was quite fond of it at one time, back when I was learning Pascal on a VAX 11/750. The programming class allowed students to write their programs in the computer lab on the VAX or at home with Turbo Pascal. I did some on the VAX and some at home. Ah, the memories. I'd hate to see it get tossed. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 23:49:36 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <00a301c4872a$474818e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <2266FF2C-F303-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <00a301c4872a$474818e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <80776786-F32D-11D8-9929-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 20, 2004, at 7:55 PM, John Allain wrote: > Sounds like you're taken care of, given the offers of replacement > Mac's. I was going to offer you one too. > > Anyway, reread your subject line. It's "What fun from a Macintosh > SE" not "Fear and Loathing with the Macintosh SE(tm)" Well actually the post was originally about what good web sites are there for downloading appropriate software for Mac SE running OS 6. > > John A. > or "M. Night Shyamalan's Pandora's Box" > From aek at spies.com Fri Aug 20 23:58:30 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: bacci man Message-ID: <20040821045830.B48473C81@spies.com> www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12966-60001_BACCI_Apr84.pdf From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 21 03:18:29 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 20, 2004 09:38:09 PM Message-ID: <20040821081829.36F3E109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > Nonetheless, the point stays, that, if a second level domain > has only one host, there is no need to create computer names > within. Nor any standard asking that, if you run a specific > service, you have to add names. I beg to differ. Technically, my domain, conman.org, only has one host, swift.conman.org. I also defined the following "names:" ns1 www literature bible boston lists as CNAMEs pointing to swift.conman.org. NS1 for domain registration purposes (it just makes it easier to deal) and LISTS *was* intended to separate the mailing lists I run (like I'm ever going to get another server just for the mailing lists). The others, WWW, LITERATURE, BIBLE and BOSTON are all websites (with WWW.conman.org being the same site as just CONMAN.ORG). I'm actually surprised at how few sites actually take advantage of multiple hostnames for portions of their website. Heck, I went completely overboard with the zonefile for conman.org; I'm sure I'm one of the very few people with acurrate HINFO, RP, WKS and LOC records (along with SRV records---why not?). -spc (oh, and TXT records ... can't forget those ... ) From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 21 03:38:14 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408202050.QAA01726@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 20, 2004 04:26:41 PM Message-ID: <20040821083814.94285109AD00@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > [about http://exmaple.com/ vs http://www.example.com/] > > [Doc Shipley ] > > First, as referenced by "http://www.mydomain.tld", "www.mydomain.tld" > > is NOT a subdomain, it's the FQDN (Fully Qualified Domain Name) of an > > individual host. > > What's the difference? > > That's a serious question. What is your definition of a subdomain, as > distinct from an "FQDN of an individual host"? Well, in my case, slab.conman.org and nolab.conman.org refer to actual networks (slab.conman.org being my home network, and nolab.conman.org being the home network of a friend) so technically they would be subdomains (for instance, I have area51.slab.conman.org as a host (firewall/NAT system), and my friend has kwalitee.nolab.conman.org as a host (his firewall/NAT system)). The two subdomains also have their own zone files (in the case of slab.conman.org, the master is on swift.conman.org, which is the primary DNS server for my domain as a whole, while nolab.conman.org is on my friend's computer which swift.conman.org slaves from). While I didn't *have* to do this, for a larger organization it does make sense to break up subdomains into their own zones. A FQDN is simply the host name with its domain (and subdomains, if any). So, "kwalitee" [1] is just a hostname, while it's fully qualified domain name is "kwalitee.nolab.conman.org" (or "kwalitee.nolab.conman.org."); I'm not sure what you would call "kwalitee.nolab" as it's not a hostname, and it's not a FQDN. Perhaps a Partially Qualified Domain Name (PQDN)? > > Second, resolving a domain name as a host breaks RFC definitions and > > recommendations. > > Which ones? Yes, I too would like to know. -spc (I personally prefer "www.example.com" but have also set up the bare domain name to point to an IP address for serving up the website) [1] I'd use my own network as an example, but on a lark (several years ago) I set up my own private TLD for use here on the home network (".area51") and experiemented around with zone delagations (I had three second level domains defined, all delegated---one was my half of the network, the second was my roommate's half of the network, and the third was the wireless network). I figured that would confuse the issue even more. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 21 02:26:59 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:23 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> References: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> Message-ID: <20040821092659.0f4c0702.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:38:09 +0200 "Hans Franke" wrote: > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? Weil wir beide Erbsenz?hler sind? ;-)) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 21 02:18:24 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> Message-ID: <20040821091824.79462afe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? > Hey, what's all this foreign speak!? Are you guys plotting something > unsavory? Damn Mexicans. Fremde Sprache? Kommt auf den Standpunkt an. ;-))) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 21 02:25:01 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408202050.QAA01726@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <412654A2.19645.393B7BB9@localhost> <41264204.9040001@mdrconsult.com> <200408202050.QAA01726@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040821092501.7568c265.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:26:41 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > [Jochen Kunz ] > > [L]earn the difference between a (Full Qualified) Host Name and a > > Domain Name. > What _is_ the difference? I have to admit: My description was a very simplified view of the DNS. I am not going to explain DNS details here. Especially as I am no big DNS expert, although I happen to be responsible for some DNS servers. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 21 06:21:27 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040821091824.79462afe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <41266F41.19145.39A3798C@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040821071531.033822a8@192.168.0.1> At 03:18 AM 8/21/2004, you wrote: > > > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > > > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? > > Hey, what's all this foreign speak!? Are you guys plotting something > > unsavory? Damn Mexicans. >Fremde Sprache? Kommt auf den Standpunkt an. ;-))) Mexican! So, that's what that was. Damn NAFTA! Have to reup my John Birch Society membership. Thought it was my email HTML parser going funky on me. I've got my Eudora spam filters set just right (all 300 of them) and dreaded having to change them. Ed From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 21 06:27:40 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <20040820200427.O15973@shell.lmi.net> References: <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040821072212.0348fb40@192.168.0.1> At 11:07 PM 8/20/2004, you wrote: >On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, vrs wrote: > > > I suppose you're also going to tell me there's a South Carolina! HA! > > Nope, I can't vouch for the existence of either of the Carolinas... > >They exist. >I'm not sure WHY South Carolina exists, but it does. So you have such great shag classics as "Carolina Girls" of course! [Note for those not from around here: "shag" is state dance of South Carolina, not to be confused with the Austin Powers thing. One "International Man of ..." on this list is quite enough thank you.] Ed West Columbia (not to be confused with Columbia) South Carolina From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 21 06:05:18 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41265605.8000603@mdrconsult.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040821070139.0249ea40@192.168.0.1> At 03:50 PM 8/20/2004, you wrote: >>It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not >>accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared to >>open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a >>computer. > > That's bullshit. Excellent example of proper use of the word bullshit. >>Please point out in the message above where I am calling Ron "derogatory >>names" Ok, >> this group ... people ... too lazy ... too scared ... too insecure Were the terms that caught my eye, at least. Ed From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Aug 21 07:04:54 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Hard drive for PERQ on EBAY? Message-ID: <41273A66.3080904@pacbell.net> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5115883008&rd=1 This looks like the drive in my old PERQ 1 at CMU. Anyone need one for their PERQ? --Bill From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 21 07:49:49 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <20040820200427.O15973@shell.lmi.net> References: <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <003d01c48710$953dd360$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040821082302.0348fb40@192.168.0.1> At 11:07 PM 8/20/2004, you wrote: >On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, vrs wrote: > > > I suppose you're also going to tell me there's a South Carolina! HA! > > Nope, I can't vouch for the existence of either of the Carolinas... > >They exist. >I'm not sure WHY South Carolina exists, but it does. 1) Had a nice couple from Surrey, UK over recently on a shooting holiday. 2) Gives Canadians a place to go. 3) Most of the nuclear fuel used in North American is made here. [on-topic] They still use 4 PDP11's to do all the ultrasonic weld inspections on the nuclear fuel rod end plugs. Did the software in Macro11/RT11SJ over 20 years ago and Version 15 is still humming along, though now it's using Mentec's RT11SB. Ed South Carolina From sastevens at earthlink.net Sat Aug 21 09:20:03 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040810074600.008c45e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040821092003.0f92354a.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:41:57 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore > > >difficult to maintain > > > > Bah! The PC is probably THE best documented computer out there. > > Name > > another company that produced as thorough a Tech Ref as IBM. Name > > another > > OK, trivial... > > If you want both hardware and software documentation (i.e. schematics > _and ROM source code_) then the obvious ones are : > > Apple : Apple ][ and Apple //e (and maybe other machines in that > family). I am told the IBM PC Techref was modelled on the Apple > manuals. > > HP : HP71B. I am sure you've read the complete IDS (I certainly have, > it's excellent). Incidentally, do you have the HP71 Forth IMS > (Internal Maintenance Specification)? It's very interesting. > > Research Machines : RML380Z. It's a separate hardware 'Information > File' giving schematics, etc and a COS (Cassette Operating System) > Source listing. Admittedly I've never seen the latter (it was an > optional purchase), but it existed. > > DEC : PDP11. The PDP11/45 CPU technical manual and printset > (schematics) are much better than the IBM Techref. You could get a > source license for the OS if you could afford it, too. > > DEC : PDP8. I am not sure about the OS sources, but the hardware > manuals, at least for the 8/e are again excellent. > > HEath/Zentih : H89/Z90. The manuals I got with my Z90 had schematics > and ROM source listings in them. > > If you just want hardware docs (i.e. full schematics) and the > programming interface (i.e. not full ROM sources) then also : > > HP : Portable+ , HP150, etc (and I assume the HP110). There are > excellent technical manuals for these machines > > Acorn : BBC Micro, Archimedes, etc. Again, schematics are easy to > obtain either in 'Advanced User Guides' or service manuals > > Raido Shack : All TRS-80s had service manuals available to anyone who > wanted to order them. And many had technical reference manuals > available as well. > > Need I go on? > > > comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many service and parts > > manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND > > PERIPHERALS. > (*trimmed*) > IBM service manuals (at least the Hardware Maintenance and Service > manual i have for my PC/AT) are boardswapper guides. They're pretty > useless now, they are totally useless when there are no more boards to > swap. > The IBM PC/XT and PC/AT Technical Reference manuals include complete schematics, and they include complete, commented source code listings for the BIOS. Similar documents exist for some of the 'clone' machines, i.e. the Compaq Deskpro and the AT&T 6300. This is sadly not the case for most of the modern (modern meaning anything newer than the XT/AT generations) 'PeeCee' hardware, but it is the case with the earlier systems. It's definitely the case with the machines from the era of most of the other hardware you listed, i.e. the Apple II, HP71B. Times have changed, but times have changed all over. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 21 10:07:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040821091824.79462afe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:59:08 -0700 (PDT) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > > > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? > > Hey, what's all this foreign speak!? Are you guys plotting something > > unsavory? Damn Mexicans. > Fremde Sprache? Kommt auf den Standpunkt an. ;-))) In Amerika, alle volk nicht von hier ist Fremde ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sastevens at earthlink.net Sat Aug 21 10:12:51 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040821032058.0133aa98@pop-server> References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <3.0.3.32.20040821032058.0133aa98@pop-server> Message-ID: <20040821101251.252a39a0.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:20:58 +1100 "Dr. Ido" wrote: > At 07:52 AM 8/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > >> Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and > >case> cracker > > > >That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of > >dead Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. > > > >tnx. > > The long torx screwdriver should be available from any good tool shop, > though for the longest time I used one made from the tip of a too > short torx screwdriver welded to shaft of another screwdriver. I've > never seen a case cracker, but I'm not sure why you'd need one. Every > compact mac I've opened has came apart easily once the screws were > removed. > I carried one of my SE/30's directly into the (independent, locally owned) hardware store last summer in pursuit of a long Torx screwdriver to back out those deep screws in the handle hole. I ended up settling for the longest handle small flat-blade screwdriver, which had a blade width perfect for wedging into the 'torx' screwhead hole. I carefully maintained forward pressure while turning the screwdriver and was able to back the screws out with no problem. I always bag and save those screws on an SE/30 and put in phillips screws of the same size. The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There was no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, so it went back on the shelf. It's nice living less than a mile away from that hardware store, with it's friendly clerks. The SE/30 has it's full rightful complement of 32 megs of RAM now. The SE is a cool machine, but the SE/30 is downright wonderful. I have the current NetBSD running on one, so it's even supported by a current OS. > From sastevens at earthlink.net Sat Aug 21 10:23:23 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040821102323.65117940.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:36:58 -0700 Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Aug 20, 2004, at 6:53 AM, chris wrote: > > >> I just landed hands on a Mac SE. It is currently running system > >6, I> only have a bout 2mb of memory > >> and a 20mb hard drive. I even have an imagewriter to go with it!! > >:^) > > > > If you want to raise that to 4 MB (the max it can handle), give me a > > mailing address (off list), I'll send you 2 more 1 MB SIMMs for it. > > > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > cracker > tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean evil nasty > > high voltages live > in there. Besides I might bust something inside and that would be bad. > > Another thing to watch out about with the classic Mac systems is that the CRT's nipple-seal on some models is a glass tube that runs out through the middle of the connector end on the neck of the tube. Apple kindly put a flat circuit board with the connector in the middle that mounts on the neck. If you push on one side of said board enough (even nudging it wrong while working with cables inside the system will do), the leverage will snap off the glass nipple, which evacuates the vaccum from the CRT tube, ruining it. It makes a medium-loud sucking sound as the tube expires. I know this from personal experience, having done so on a Mac Plus, back when a Mac Plus was a machine of some considerable worth (don't raise your hackles, it's still a nice machine in some regards, just not one with mainstream market value any longer). I ended up having to seek out a dead machine to swap the CRT with. My current personal gripe: I go to the IUPUI auctions in Indianapolis these days, and the dolts who run the auction have developed a habit of shrinkwrapping all the older Macs onto a pallet and not allowing them to be bid on as individual machines! Last time, there were two nice SE/30 machines, which I would have gotten for the miniumum $5 bid, but they were embedded in a skid of uninteresting (late model) dumb terminals. The auction management almost guarantees that those Macs will only go to a scrapper. They're doing the same crap with the Sun machines now. (did get one SparcStation 20 which was off on the side for $5 though) It pisses off anybody not enamored with late-model PC clones (which bid individually, of course.) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 21 10:55:17 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040821101251.252a39a0.sastevens@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Aug 21, 4 10:12:51 am" Message-ID: <200408211555.IAA14544@floodgap.com> > The SE/30 has it's full rightful complement of 32 megs of RAM now. The > SE is a cool machine, but the SE/30 is downright wonderful. I have the > current NetBSD running on one, so it's even supported by a current OS. You can stick 128MB in an SE/30, you know ^^ The SE/30 and the Mac Plus are my favourite compact Macs: the SE/30 because it's a "lot" of power in a small space, and the Plus for nostalgia, since it was the first Macintosh I ever encountered. I hear of a lot of people running NetBSD on the SE/30, although I have my local install running on a Q605 and a IIci (and a Power Mac 7300). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- If your happiness depends on anyone else, you've got a problem. -- R. Bach - From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Aug 21 10:43:35 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040821101251.252a39a0.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > I carried one of my SE/30's directly into the (independent, locally > owned) hardware store last summer in pursuit of a long Torx screwdriver > to back out those deep screws in the handle hole. > > I ended up settling for the longest handle small flat-blade screwdriver, > which had a blade width perfect for wedging into the 'torx' screwhead > hole. I carefully maintained forward pressure while turning the > screwdriver and was able to back the screws out with no problem. I > always bag and save those screws on an SE/30 and put in phillips screws > of the same size. > > The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There was > no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, so it > went back on the shelf. > > It's nice living less than a mile away from that hardware store, with > it's friendly clerks. And you don't have any problems with this failure of ethics? Of all of the hardware stores out there, the "locally, independently owned" ones are the ones you should be supporting, not abusing. Most of these guys are in trouble from the chains, and could really use that ten bucks. Shame on you. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 21 12:53:51 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: univac 90/30 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040817171729.055c4c50@pc> References: <20040816181830.AA8453CA9@spies.com> <412101EC.6060204@citem.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20040817171729.055c4c50@pc> Message-ID: <1093110831.3140.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 22:18, John Foust wrote: > At 01:50 PM 8/16/2004, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > >According to the member profile they are in Switzerland. > Looking at their past few acquisitions shows a bunch of > electronic components, mechanical calculators and classic > computers. I'd say they were building a collection ;-) > > John Walker of http://www.fourmilab.com/ ? Turns out the machine was in Croatia or somesuch from what I hear today (despite the Ebay ad saying the location was Bristol, UK - that was just the seller, not the equipment). D'oh! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 21 12:55:01 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Hard drive for PERQ on EBAY? In-Reply-To: <41273A66.3080904@pacbell.net> References: <41273A66.3080904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1093110901.3140.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-08-21 at 12:04, William Maddox wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5115883008&rd=1 > > This looks like the drive in my old PERQ 1 at CMU. Anyone need one for > their PERQ? When I get around to fixing the screen on the museum's PERQ 1 I'll be able to tell you if the hard drive's hosed or not :-) cheers Jules From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Aug 21 13:35:08 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Enigma References: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <00de01c487ad$cc0e55c0$0200a8c0@geoff> The strange thing is that I can't access the following page in the uk. http://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/find_etm.cfm Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Geoffrey Thomas" Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Enigma > > On Aug 20, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > > Is this the real thing ? > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > > ViewItem&category=3284&item=226295693 > > 8&rd=1 > > > > Anyone with deep pockets ? > > > > Geoff. > > > > > Ebay.uk says I can't look at this because I am from the wrong > > country....? > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Aug 21 14:26:50 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: <20040820200427.O15973@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> They exist. >>> I'm not sure WHY South Carolina exists, but it does. Pedro (from South of The Border) is about the only reason I can think of....... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Aug 21 14:50:37 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Enigma In-Reply-To: <00de01c487ad$cc0e55c0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: >>> The strange thing is that I can't access the following page >>> in the uk. >>> >>> http://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/find_etm.cfm >>> I get to it fine (when I switch to https:// with 128 bit encryption.... > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 21 17:15:17 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 PSU wiring / differences Message-ID: <1093126517.3140.109.camel@weka.localdomain> We were trying to find out why the left half of our PDP 11/84's backplane is dead earlier. Seems like it's not getting any power at all supplied to it. The system's got two power supplies in it - an H7202-KA which runs the right (working) side of the backplane, and an H7202-KB which runs the left side (and seems to be dead) Now, the left hand power supply is fed AC from a cable that plugs into a large mains filter on the left side of the cabinet, halfway up and midway between front and back of the chassis. AC is getting as far as the PSU, but there's nothing on the +5V output. There seem to be no fuses in the PSU itself, and no obvious sign of problem. Initial questions: 1) It seems that AC input is always available to the PSU with the power switches on though, so the PSU must be started via a signal over the ribbon cable that plugs into the PSU? 2) As well as AC input to the left hand PSU, there's also a pair of wires (yellow and green) which terminate in a plug up by the mains filter. There's nothing which obviously plugs into this - any ideas what it does? 3) What's the difference between the two supply types? The rightmost one is identical to the left, but with the addition of a second vertical board inside, and also runs the blower fan at the front of the machine. Is it just that it provides voltages other than +5V to the system? It's possible that we can source another supply in the near future, but I'm not yet convinced that the supply is actually dead - has anyone got a list of what the various lines connected to the supply actually do? cheers, Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 17:01:22 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: <20040821092003.0f92354a.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 21, 4 09:20:03 am Message-ID: > > > comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many service and parts > > > manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND > > > PERIPHERALS. > > > (*trimmed*) > > IBM service manuals (at least the Hardware Maintenance and Service > > manual i have for my PC/AT) are boardswapper guides. They're pretty > > useless now, they are totally useless when there are no more boards to > > swap. > > > > The IBM PC/XT and PC/AT Technical Reference manuals include complete > schematics, and they include complete, commented source code listings I can't argue with that. I have them for the PC, PC/XT, PC/AT and PCjr, along with _some_ of the options/adapters manuals. Full schematics (but not of the PSU or the EGA monitor for some reason), BIOS source, etc. The 'Hardware Interface Technical Reference' for the PS/2 machines is nowhere near as good. It's got pinouts and some details of the custom chips, but no schematics. > for the BIOS. Similar documents exist for some of the 'clone' machines, > i.e. the Compaq Deskpro and the AT&T 6300. > > This is sadly not the case for most of the modern (modern meaning > anything newer than the XT/AT generations) 'PeeCee' hardware, but it is Hence my origianl comment that modern PCs are difficult to maintain. > the case with the earlier systems. It's definitely the case with the > machines from the era of most of the other hardware you listed, i.e. the > Apple II, HP71B. The suprise is the HP75C. There is a service manual for it, and AFAIK it was available to anyone who wanted to order it. The supported repair method is board-swapping (keyboard/top case, CPU board, memory board, display IIRC). However, the manual includes full schsmatics and PCB layouts and an _excellent_ theory-of-operation section. The 75C ROM listing exists too, but it wasn't an official HP product. It was sent to PPC (User group) under the NOMAS scheme (NOt MAnufacturer Suported -- you could read/copy the listing, but you couldn't bother HP's technical support about it). It is suprisingly hard to find now. > > Times have changed, but times have changed all over. Not round here they haven't :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 17:05:59 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040821101251.252a39a0.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 21, 4 10:12:51 am Message-ID: > The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There was > no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, so it > went back on the shelf. I find this mroally very wrong. I can't believe yor tool shops offer a free lending service for tools, I know ours don't. It's one thing to take the unit to the shop to find what tool will remove the screws (I've done that many times when I've wanted something obscure), but once you've found the right tool you should darn well buy it. Ditto for books, actually. I have no problem with looking at books in the bookshop to find which one contains the information I need, but when I've found said book I buy it. I don't make notes in a pocket notebook so as not to have to buy the book (I do, of course, do that in public libraries, but that's what libraries are for). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 17:13:27 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Hard drive for PERQ on EBAY? In-Reply-To: <1093110901.3140.19.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 21, 4 05:55:01 pm Message-ID: > When I get around to fixing the screen on the museum's PERQ 1 I'll be > able to tell you if the hard drive's hosed or not :-) The PERQ 1's hard disk is a Shugart SA4000, normally a 24 Mbyte one, although I am told some machines only had 12 Mbytes. I have the schematics for this drive, and it's possible to repair electronic faults -- all PCBs can be removed without a cleanroom [1], and you can then use normal methods to repair them. Mechanical problems are, alas, more common. Top of the list is problems with te spindle drive belt which can be replaced if you can find a suitable replamcement. I guees head/disk problems can occur, but you do then need a cleanroom. Oh, and _please_ fit the locking clip to the positioner and the screw to the spindle before moving the machine. If you don't you can do serious damage to the drive! [1] This is not always the case!. The PERQ 2T1 uses a Micropolis 1200 8" drive. You can remove the control logic board and the motor board (analogue board, basically), and of course the ICL-designed DIB (Disk Interface Board) with no problems, but don't remove the pre-amp board under the screening cover (you can remove the cover). It forms part of the HDA casing -- the head cables are connected to the back of it, it's mounted over a hole in the casting. The 3 ICs -- all custom -- on this board are socketed so you can replace those if they fail, and AFAIK there's nothing else on the board. Incidentally, there's a Schrader (?spell) valve on the HDA casing of Micropolis 1200 drive. It looks like a car tyre valve, and has a dust cap on the end. Does anyone know what it's there for? The HDA is not hermetically sealeed (there'e a breather filter) so it can't be to presurise the HDA or anything like that. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 21 18:04:50 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4127D512.4070807@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: > It's one thing to be senibly cautious -- to read the manuals before > taking something apart (although to be honest, I've never had a problem > just pulling the case). To check PSUs on dummy load before powering the > machine up (this one is a lot more important IMHO -- a defective PSU (and > I've had them) could wipe out every chip in the machine. To use scratch > media before mounting the only copy of the distribution disk. And so on. > > It's quite another to be afraid to _ever_ pull the case, power the > machine up, mount the distribution disk, etc. You'll never do anything > unless you have a go. Oh, I agree totally. At the same time, in this case, I know the documentation exists, I have a couple more avenues to pursue before I decide I can't get them, and I don't have a pressing need for that machine, so it makes sense to me to wait on it. > I was once told 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He > never designed anything'. It's a view I totally agree with. You _will_ > make mistages. The thing is to be careful with irreplacable (to you) > stuff, not to never do anything. Heh. I must be a very *good* designer then. ;) Seriously, sometimes the choice is to either take a chance without any outside information, or to leave it as a non-functioning display piece. That's something for which I have no use. I have blown or burnt stuff up that I really wanted. It's the occasional price of making things work. Doc From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 21 17:44:58 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 PSU wiring / differences In-Reply-To: <1093126517.3140.109.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040821184318.02492120@192.168.0.1> At 06:15 PM 8/21/2004, you wrote: >The rightmost one >is identical to the left, but with the addition of a second vertical >board inside, and also runs the blower fan at the front of the machine. >Is it just that it provides voltages other than +5V to the system? The spare board might be a temperature controller for the fan. I've seen these in later model BA23 boxes. Ed From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 18:00:27 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <4127D512.4070807@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Aug 21, 4 04:04:50 pm Message-ID: > Seriously, sometimes the choice is to either take a chance without > any outside information, or to leave it as a non-functioning display > piece. That's something for which I have no use. I have blown or burnt > stuff up that I really wanted. It's the occasional price of making > things work. Yes, but it's very rare for an electronic failure to do cosmetic damage to the machine. So even if you do wipe out some irreplacable part during testing, you _still_ have the machine as a 'non-functioning display piece'. This is not a reason for being careless, but you really have very little to lose by carefully trying to get things going. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 21 19:18:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408220020.UAA16156@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There >> was no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, >> so it went back on the shelf. > I find this mroally very wrong. I can't believe yor tool shops offer > a free lending service for tools, I know ours don't. Generally, I would agree with you. But I also could easily see establishing a friendly relationship with a tool shop over the years, to the point where they might well be willing to lend me a tool briefly under such circumstances. Absent more information, I don't feel ready to hold an opinion on whether anything morally wrong happened. der Mouse From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 21 19:23:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040821102323.65117940.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Scott Stevens wrote: > My current personal gripe: I go to the IUPUI auctions in Indianapolis > these days, and the dolts who run the auction have developed a habit of > shrinkwrapping all the older Macs onto a pallet and not allowing them to > be bid on as individual machines! Last time, there were two nice SE/30 > machines, which I would have gotten for the miniumum $5 bid, but they > were embedded in a skid of uninteresting (late model) dumb terminals. > The auction management almost guarantees that those Macs will only go to > a scrapper. Just bid what it takes to get the pallet (probably more than the scrappers will pay, but not so much that it's not worth it to you) then take what you want and offer to give the rest FOR FREE to the ever-present scrappers. Win-Win! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Aug 21 19:40:37 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Heathkit ID-5001 weatherstation Message-ID: <20040822004037.GA28543@bos7.spole.gov> Does anyone on the list have any docs on the Heathkit ID-5001 weatherstation? I'm especially interested in schematics for the PSU board (I have no backlight, and one of the transistors gets _really_ hot), and the RS-232 command set. I've been googling for a while, and I've found a couple of interesting sites (like the one that sells aftermarket temp sensors to substitute for the LM3911 that the station comes with), but no abundant source of info. Thanks for any tips, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Aug-2004 00:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -88.2 F (-66.8 C) Windchill -129.5 F (-89.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.1 kts Grid 052 Barometer 675.8 mb (10784. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 21 20:10:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: DEC MS02 8MB DIMM Message-ID: I found a DEC MS02 8MB DIMM today that I grabbed for the hell of it. I'm not sure what system it's for (probably some manner of VAX) but I probably don't need it. If anyone can use it, PayPal me $10 (includes shipping) and it's yours. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 21 20:22:22 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: DEC MS02 8MB DIMM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I found a DEC MS02 8MB DIMM today that I grabbed for the hell of it. > >I'm not sure what system it's for (probably some manner of VAX) but I >probably don't need it. It's for some DECstation 5000's. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Aug 21 18:38:05 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Borland Turbo Pascal Manual Set (7.0) Message-ID: <20040821.204511.1800.17.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> They've been claimed, thanks for responding! Jeff On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:44:02 -0500 Kevin Monceaux writes: > Jeff, > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 06:38:41PM -0700, jeff.kaneko@juno.com > wrote: > > > > I think this is a complete Turbo Pascal Manual Set for ver 7.0: > > > > Programmers Reference > > Language Guide > > User's Guide > > TurboVision Programming Guide > > > > If you need the floppies also, ask. > > > > This one is free plus postage, will be tossed if no takers. > > > > > > > > Jeff > > I'll give the set a home, floppies and all. I haven't done anything > with > Turbo Pascal in years but was quite fond of it at one time, back > when I was > learning Pascal on a VAX 11/750. The programming class allowed > students to > write their programs in the computer lab on the VAX or at home with > Turbo > Pascal. I did some on the VAX and some at home. Ah, the memories. > I'd > hate to see it get tossed. > > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Aug 21 18:38:50 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Borland Turbo Pascal Manual Set (7.0) Message-ID: <20040821.204511.1800.18.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> The manual set has been claimed. Thanks to all who responded . . . Jeff On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:38:41 -0700 jeff.kaneko@juno.com writes: > > I think this is a complete Turbo Pascal Manual Set for ver 7.0: > > Programmers Reference > Language Guide > User's Guide > TurboVision Programming Guide > > If you need the floppies also, ask. > > This one is free plus postage, will be tossed if no takers. > > > > Jeff > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From vax3900 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 20:56:37 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <1085586123.12717.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Aug 21 21:03:19 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1085586123.12717.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040822020319.GA28611@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Aug 21, 2004 at 06:56:37PM -0700, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860, > > That's *huge*. Definitely not standard AT-sized. Unfortunately for me, I only have i960s in PGA, not any i860s. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Aug-2004 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.5 F (-64.8 C) Windchill -128.9 F (-89.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.8 kts Grid 047 Barometer 676.6 mb (10756 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomhudson at execpc.com Sat Aug 21 21:19:32 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <412802B4.2090406@execpc.com> You know, I was at Intel's press conference where they rolled out the I860, and I couldn't wait to rewrite come of my graphics code for it. I remember thinking how it was going to revolutionize the computer graphics industry. Then it kind of dropped off the map. Shows what I know. -Tom SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: >Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860, > > > > > -- Thomas Hudson http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Aug 21 21:36:03 2004 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0I2T00DAETW2R7@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Reminds me of the Hauppauge 4860 board. Yes, the same company that makes the WinTV boards. Actually, not too far from where I am (I live in Hauppage, NY). It also contained a 486 + i860 processors. Briefly had one in my hands several years ago. Very cool board, but wasn't a monster like this one. Cheers, Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SHAUN RIPLEY Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 9:57 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sastevens at earthlink.net Sat Aug 21 22:06:38 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040821101251.252a39a0.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040821220638.5fddaaa7.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:43:35 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > I carried one of my SE/30's directly into the (independent, locally > > owned) hardware store last summer in pursuit of a long Torx > > screwdriver to back out those deep screws in the handle hole. > > > > I ended up settling for the longest handle small flat-blade > > screwdriver, which had a blade width perfect for wedging into the > > 'torx' screwhead hole. I carefully maintained forward pressure > > while turning the screwdriver and was able to back the screws out > > with no problem. I always bag and save those screws on an SE/30 and > > put in phillips screws of the same size. > > > > The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There > > was no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, > > so it went back on the shelf. > > > > It's nice living less than a mile away from that hardware store, > > with it's friendly clerks. > > And you don't have any problems with this failure of ethics? Of all of > the hardware stores out there, the "locally, independently owned" ones > are the ones you should be supporting, not abusing. Most of these guys > are in trouble from the chains, and could really use that ten bucks. > > Shame on you. > Hey, if they had implied in any fashion that I should buy the screwdriver, I would have. It would have been a failure of ethics if they'd expected me to buy it and I'd refused. I buy things in there often enough. They're the only place I know of to buy bulk seed (measured out by the ounce) for instance. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 21 22:15:26 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408212215.26450.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Saturday 21 August 2004 05:05 pm: > > The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There > > was no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, > > so it went back on the shelf. > > I find this mroally very wrong. I can't believe yor tool shops offer a > free lending service for tools, I know ours don't. It's one thing to > take the unit to the shop to find what tool will remove the screws > (I've done that many times when I've wanted something obscure), but > once you've found the right tool you should darn well buy it. AutoZone, an automobile parts place around the US, offer free tool rental (and they also sell tools if you want to buy them). You give them a deposit when you pick up the tool, and they give you back 100% of it when you bring back the tool. Of course, I'm sure they wouldn't give you the whole/any of the deposit back if you broke the tool before bringing it back. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 21 22:14:13 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41280F85.4090706@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: >>Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>>>On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>>>>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case >>>>>>cracker tool, and I am a little scared to crack open the case, mean >>>>>>evil >>>>>>nasty high voltages live in there. Besides I might bust something >>>>>>inside >>>>>>and that would be bad. >>>>> >>>>>What kind of crap attitude is that? >>>> >>>>What kind of crack is that Sellam. >>> >>> >>>It's a pretty defeastist and lazy message for this group. I'm just not >>>accustomed to people being too lazy to find the right tool, too scared to >>>open up a case, and too insecure to attempt any sort of inspection of a >>>computer. >> >> Looks to me like Ron's in the same shape. The SE *works*, as-is. If >>he wants to leave it in a working state till he can learn more about it, >>who are you to call him derogatory names? > > > Doc, this is a serious question: how come you always interpret what I say > to be an attack on a particular person rather than what it is? Please > point out in the message above where I am calling Ron "derogatory names". First you called his questions a "crap attitude", then you called him lazy, scared, and insecure. I'd say all those terms are derogatory. The fact that those terms referred to his _questions_ rather than directly to his _person_ doesn't make it less derogatory or more acceptable. The guy was trying to preserve something important to him, and you tried to humiliate him for it. In my book, THAT is a "crap attitude". Just to be clear, I didn't interprete your response to Ron's questions as a personal attack. I interpreted it as just your usual style; rude, condescending, inconsiderate, megalomanic, and antagonistic. I may be the only one on CC that gets irritated enough to speak up about your behavior, but I can't believe I'm the only member of this list that sees you as an insufferable, self-important prick. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 21 22:32:22 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408212215.26450.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200408212215.26450.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <412813C6.4090502@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > AutoZone, an automobile parts place around the US, offer free tool rental > (and they also sell tools if you want to buy them). You give them a > deposit when you pick up the tool, and they give you back 100% of it > when you bring back the tool. Of course, I'm sure they wouldn't give > you the whole/any of the deposit back if you broke the tool before > bringing it back. They're actually pretty cool about it. I picked up a gear puller a couple of years ago when I was replacing on a '74 Maverick front-end, and the cheaply-built gear puller lost the battle. The threads stripped out of the crossbar. I pointed out the damage and offered to pay for the tool when I took it back. The guy just laughed and said "It's part of our overhead. Did you finish the job?" 'Course, I'd spent a good bit of money there over the past few months, too. Doc From hansp at citem.org Sat Aug 21 22:45:04 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Auction tips was Re: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412816C0.4050707@citem.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Just bid what it takes to get the pallet (probably more than the scrappers > will pay, but not so much that it's not worth it to you) then take what > you want and offer to give the rest FOR FREE to the ever-present > scrappers. > Win-Win! Additionally this develops a relationship with the scrapper who might be inclined to let you have the one or two interesting items on his pallets -- HansP From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 03:01:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Heathkit ID-5001 weatherstation In-Reply-To: <20040822004037.GA28543@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Does anyone on the list have any docs on the Heathkit ID-5001 > weatherstation? I'm especially interested in schematics for the PSU I might. I have the weatherstation, but I'm not sure about the docs. It's at my parents' house so I'll check the next time I'm out there (a couple weeks). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Aug 22 05:54:55 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Looking for 11/34 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41287B7F.60901@gifford.co.uk> Ashley Carder wrote: > My console board (M7859) is misbehaving and I need to > find a good one. Isn't that the one with the 8008 CPU on it? I've seen one of those with a bad PROM, which made it crash the 8008 on startup. Once the PROM got warmed up, it was OK again, and the 8008 recovered. So, if you want to discuss ways to fix your M7859, do let me know. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Aug 22 06:21:41 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41280F85.4090706@mdrconsult.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040822071339.033408a8@192.168.0.1> At 11:14 PM 8/21/2004, Doc wrote: >>>>>What kind of crack is that Sellam. >>>> > Just to be clear, I didn't interprete your response to Ron's questions > as a personal attack. I interpreted it as just your usual style; rude, > condescending, inconsiderate, megalomanic, and antagonistic. > > I may be the only one on CC that gets irritated enough to speak up > about your behavior, but I can't believe I'm the only member of this list > that sees you as an insufferable, self-important prick. Doc, you're not alone in either category above. However, I temper my judgement and suffer the self-important prick because, from what I understand, he does good with the VCF. I figure he just wants to be the bad-boy on the list, using vulgar language and smoking in the lavatory and all. I'll take a jab every once in awhile, as you do, in hopes he'll come around, and to let others know he's not representative of the whole list. Ed Kelleher From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sun Aug 22 10:55:30 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: Enigma References: <000901c486f9$520d5280$0200a8c0@geoff> <00de01c487ad$cc0e55c0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <002801c48860$754c0210$7dc3033e@gamemachine> https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/find_etm.cfm it's moved over to SSL, I got it np here in the uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Enigma > The strange thing is that I can't access the following page in the uk. > > http://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/find_etm.cfm > > > Geoff. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Hudson" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ; "Geoffrey Thomas" > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:30 AM > Subject: Re: Enigma > > > > > > On Aug 20, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > > > > Is this the real thing ? > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > > > ViewItem&category=3284&item=226295693 > > > 8&rd=1 > > > > > > Anyone with deep pockets ? > > > > > > Geoff. > > > > > > > > Ebay.uk says I can't look at this because I am from the wrong > > > country....? > > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 16/08/2004 From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 11:29:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41280F85.4090706@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > First you called his questions a "crap attitude", then you called him > lazy, scared, and insecure. No, I didn't call him "lazy, scared, or insecure". I have every right to express disdain at the *sentiment* of his message, which I did. *YOU* interpreted it as a personal attack. > The guy was trying to preserve something important to him, and you > tried to humiliate him for it. In my book, THAT is a "crap attitude". I didn't try to humiliate anyone. I consider it a kick in the ass. I suppose, again, it's a matter of interpretation, and you have a habit of defaulting to interpret the worst intentions when I say anything, because it seems (from most of the interactions I've had with you) to be in your nature to be suspicious and negative. Sad. > Just to be clear, I didn't interprete your response to Ron's > questions as a personal attack. You just contradicted yourself. > I interpreted it as just your usual style; rude, condescending, > inconsiderate, megalomanic, and antagonistic. You're too kind. > I may be the only one on CC that gets irritated enough to speak up > about your behavior, but I can't believe I'm the only member of this > list that sees you as an insufferable, self-important prick. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me, and your opinion is worth somewhat less than that. You're not the list etiquette cop, so I can only interpret this as a personal gripe. If you have a problem here then I'll expect you to have the courage to take it up privately. You're a big boy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 22 11:53:27 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:24 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2004, at 9:29 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> First you called his questions a "crap attitude", then you called >> him >> lazy, scared, and insecure. > > No, I didn't call him "lazy, scared, or insecure". I have every right > to > express disdain at the *sentiment* of his message, which I did. *YOU* > interpreted it as a personal attack. While *I* did not take the attack as personal, Doc, I did think it was somewhat out of line, Sellam > >> The guy was trying to preserve something important to him, and you >> tried to humiliate him for it. In my book, THAT is a "crap attitude". > > I didn't try to humiliate anyone. I consider it a kick in the ass. I > suppose, again, it's a matter of interpretation, and you have a habit > of > defaulting to interpret the worst intentions when I say anything, > because > it seems (from most of the interactions I've had with you) to be in > your > nature to be suspicious and negative. Sad. > Sellam, Who are you to kick anyone in the ass? It is a matter of interpretation but the one who gets to interpret is the receiver of the comment. Anyway, Sellam has extended an olive branch to me off list. So between Sellam and I, things are cool... for now :^) From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 11:52:44 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040822071339.033408a8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > However, I temper my judgement and suffer the self-important prick because, > from what I understand, he does good with the VCF. Thanks for tempering your judgement, Ed. Because, you know, it carries a lot of weight with all the other Complaining Old Farts, an important demographic. > I figure he just wants to be the bad-boy on the list, using vulgar language > and smoking in the lavatory and all. It's nice to be young, Ed. I hope your memories are fond. > I'll take a jab every once in awhile, as you do, in hopes he'll come around, > and to let others know he's not representative of the whole list. Life is for the living. Go back to your crypt. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 22 12:26:28 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Parliamentary procedure (was: What fun ... References: Message-ID: <029101c4886d$296f7680$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Anybody on the list follow the British Parliament? I assume that when the audience says "Hear, hear!" thay are reacting to what may be said to be a "called for comment". Are there things they can say in regards to an "Un-called for comment" or do they have to wait for the opposition to speak up and then give the "Hear, hear's" for him? John A. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Aug 22 12:40:07 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Parliamentary procedure (was: What fun ... In-Reply-To: <029101c4886d$296f7680$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040822133739.0318d2d0@192.168.0.1> At 01:26 PM 8/22/2004, you wrote: >Anybody on the list follow the British Parliament? > >I assume that when the audience says "Hear, hear!" >thay are reacting to what may be said to be a "called for >comment". Are there things they can say in regards to an >"Un-called for comment" or do they have to wait for the >opposition to speak up and then give the "Hear, hear's" >for him? > >John A. Not sure what they do in Parliament, but in the US Navy Submarine Service the negative response to someone's comment typically was a hymn. Specifically: "Hymn, Hymn, Fuck Hymn!" With appropriate resonance and reverence. Ed From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 22 13:17:44 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Kirk Davis? Message-ID: Does anyone happen to have a current email address for Kirk Davis? The one he had a few months ago no longer works. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 13:37:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > While *I* did not take the attack as personal, Doc, I did think it was > somewhat out of line, Sellam It was not meant to be an attack on you, Ron. I apologize for not wording it properly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 22 13:45:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408212215.26450.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200408212215.26450.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20040822113656.O40421@shell.lmi.net> > > > The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There > > > was no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, > > > so it went back on the shelf. > > I find this mroally very wrong. I can't believe yor tool shops offer a > > free lending service for tools, I know ours don't. It's one thing to > > take the unit to the shop to find what tool will remove the screws > > (I've done that many times when I've wanted something obscure), but > > once you've found the right tool you should darn well buy it. > AutoZone, an automobile parts place around the US, offer free tool rental > (and they also sell tools if you want to buy them). You give them a > deposit when you pick up the tool, and they give you back 100% of it > when you bring back the tool. Of course, I'm sure they wouldn't give > you the whole/any of the deposit back if you broke the tool before > bringing it back. And how about a store that sells tools as NEW, after they've been used, and abused, such as use of the wrong size screwdriver, or even using a flatblade screwdriver on a torx screw? I don't like having to do a detailed inspection of "new" tools looking for damage that they hadn't noticed, in addition to the normal inspection for manufacturing defects. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 13:49:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Parliamentary procedure (was: What fun ... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040822133739.0318d2d0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Not sure what they do in Parliament, but in the > US Navy Submarine Service the negative response > to someone's comment typically was a hymn. > > Specifically: > > "Hymn, Hymn, Fuck Hymn!" Were you bending over when the crew was singing that, Ed? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 13:50:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Kirk Davis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to have a current email address for Kirk Davis? > The one he had a few months ago no longer works. >From what I've been told, Kirk sold off his collection a couple months back and is now travelling the country. Lucky him :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 22 14:07:12 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7945CB65-F46E-11D8-B289-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 22, 2004, at 11:37 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> While *I* did not take the attack as personal, Doc, I did think it was >> somewhat out of line, Sellam > > It was not meant to be an attack on you, Ron. I apologize for not > wording > it properly. s'ok. but look above, not an attack.. just out of line. Anyway we have already worked this out between us. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 22 14:23:51 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040822113656.O40421@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408212215.26450.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20040822113656.O40421@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There >>>> was no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, >>>> so it went back on the shelf. >>> I find this mroally very wrong. I can't believe yor tool shops offer >>> a >>> free lending service for tools, I know ours don't. It's one thing to >>> take the unit to the shop to find what tool will remove the screws >>> (I've done that many times when I've wanted something obscure), but >>> once you've found the right tool you should darn well buy it. >> AutoZone, an automobile parts place around the US, offer free tool >> rental >> (and they also sell tools if you want to buy them). You give them a >> deposit when you pick up the tool, and they give you back 100% of it >> when you bring back the tool. Of course, I'm sure they wouldn't give >> you the whole/any of the deposit back if you broke the tool before >> bringing it back. > > And how about a store that sells tools as NEW, after they've > been used, and abused, such as use of the wrong size screwdriver, > or even using a flatblade screwdriver on a torx screw? I don't > like having to do a detailed inspection of "new" tools looking > for damage that they hadn't noticed, in addition to the normal > inspection for manufacturing defects. > > Of course the store could be chalking it up to "Advertising". Did they put the tool back out for sale? Did they inspect it first. I don't think what the tool borrower did was wrong as long as it was done under the eye of the store staff, and not done sneaky in the back of the aisle when no one knew. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Aug 22 14:56:45 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... Message-ID: Ok, I am at it again... Powering up the "really nice" ASR-33 that I pickjed up last weekend. After checking thing out [voltages mechanical inspection, etc] I have powered it up. [F4 the fuse for the motor WAS blown, a replacement of the ssame rating is holding]. Motor spins up nicely (real quiet and sweet!), with the mode set to local, the break and here-is keys do the "right things", however NONE of the other keys do. My first thought was an issue with the keyboard unit, but a swap from my other (dirty, smashed case, etc) unit yields the same results. My next thought was the distributor [since checking the schematic shows that the break key does NOT require the distributor connectivty].... Powered down, disassembled to look at the brushes, they look brand new [cant wait till I get to post some pictures of this baby!!!!]. Every thing also seems to buzz out as I would expect. This indicates that the failure mode might well (once again) be me...... Hopefully someone here will think of something I am missing..... A reply e-mail would be appreciated, a call bfrom anyone with an idea and a few minutes would be great! [If it is long distance, I can call anyone willing to help]. My weekend will be some mich better if I get this working and buttoned up tonight [It's so cleen that it is even scheduled to go in the living space rather than my lab when buttoned up and working! Thanks in advance. David Corbin Sayville, NY 631-244-8487 dvcorbin@optonline.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Aug 22 14:58:10 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Need help in finding old aritcle Message-ID: <002301c48882$5ae24200$46406b43@66067007> For a grant I'm trying to get for the museum I need help in locating Knight-Ridder newspapers in the US and around the world that carried an article back in March 2000 about my collecting computers. The article was titled "collecting the classics" and was in the St. Paul (MN) Pioneer Press back on Monday March 13, 2000. Some of you remarked that your local paper carried the story also. If anyone remembers seeing it please email me the name of your local paper so that I can contact them. I need 3 US papers and 1 international paper. Thanks From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 22 15:07:57 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Goodies available, #1 Message-ID: <200408221307570958.0B122EF6@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, Cleaning up today, thanks to lousy weather, and I've come across a couple of items I don't need. First is a DEC VT220 Programmer Pocket Guide. This one'll be a freebie to whoever wants it IF you're in the United States (I can send it for less than a dollar via postal). If you're outside the US, I'd ask for the cost of postage to be covered. Next up is a terminal emulation package made by Microplot. More specifically, it's called PC-PLOT-IV PLUS, and it is designed to, on a DOS PC, emulate the Tektronix 4010, 4014, and 4105 graphics terminals. It will also emulate a VT100. The 5.25" floppy disk says it's version 4.20J. For that one, I'll let you tell me what it's worth by E-mailing an offer if you're interested. Thanks much, there may be more to come as I uncover other hidey-holes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Aug 22 15:34:01 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Goodies available, #1 References: <200408221307570958.0B122EF6@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <007d01c48887$5d0a86f0$46406b43@66067007> I have tried to send you an email off list and get No Service available error. I wanted the DEC VT220 guide if no one else has asked for it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Lane" To: Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:07 PM Subject: Goodies available, #1 > Hi, gang, > > Cleaning up today, thanks to lousy weather, and I've come across a couple of items I don't need. First is a DEC VT220 Programmer Pocket Guide. This one'll be a freebie to whoever wants it IF you're in the United States (I can send it for less than a dollar via postal). If you're outside the US, I'd ask for the cost of postage to be covered. > > Next up is a terminal emulation package made by Microplot. More specifically, it's called PC-PLOT-IV PLUS, and it is designed to, on a DOS PC, emulate the Tektronix 4010, 4014, and 4105 graphics terminals. It will also emulate a VT100. The 5.25" floppy disk says it's version 4.20J. > > For that one, I'll let you tell me what it's worth by E-mailing an offer if you're interested. > > Thanks much, there may be more to come as I uncover other hidey-holes. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Aug 22 15:37:28 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Fw: [Test-Equipment] FS: Semi Data Books Message-ID: <00c101c48887$d7cd3950$6800a8c0@athlon1200> Likely some interest in these here - hence the cross-post (mea culpa!) DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [Test-Equipment] FS: Semi Data Books > > On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:28:35 +1200 "Dave Brown" > > writes: >> Marv- >> Could be some interest from the classiccmp (classic computers) >> list-want me to cross post? >> 73 >> Dave, ZL3FJ > > Hi Dave, > Sure... spread the knowledge! > > 73 & Thanks! > Marv WC6W 310 649 3111 > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: ; ; >> >> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:54 PM >> Subject: [Test-Equipment] FS: Semi Data Books >> >> >> > *** Semiconductor Data Books -- Mostly like new. >> > Probably can't order much from these but, >> > they may be useful to service a 2nd Millennium relic >> > $8 per pound including media rate shipping *** >> > >> > Altera Data Book 1995 >> > >> > AMD >> > AM29PL141 Fuse Programmable Controller 1987 >> > Analog & Communication Products 1983 >> > Array Processing & Digital Signal Processing 1986 >> > Bipolar Microprocessor Logic & Interface 1985 >> > Bus Interface Products 1988 >> > E2Prom Am2864AE/BE 1988 >> > LCA Applications Handbook 1988 >> > Memory Products 1989/90 >> > Microcontrollers 1988 >> > MOS Microprocessors & Perhiperals 1987-1988 >> > Pal Device Handbook 1988 >> > PGA 3000 Series 1988 >> > Programmable Logic 1987 >> > >> > Anadigics >> > Communications IC Data Book 1998 >> > >> > Analog Devices >> > ADSP-2100 User's Manual 1989 >> > ADSP-2101/2102 User's Manual 1990 >> > ADSP-2101/2102 Emulator Manual 1990 >> > ADSP-21020 Users Manual 1991 >> > ASSP-21065L User's Manual 1998 >> > DSP Products Data Book 1989 >> > New Products Update Summer 1999 >> > Short Form Designer's Guide Winter 1999 >> > >> > Anaren >> > RF & Microwave Components Catalog 2001 >> > >> > Atmel >> > Nonvolatile Memory 1996 >> > >> > AT&T >> > Analog Integrated Circuits 1989 >> > Communications Devices 1988 >> > DSP16 & DSP16A Digital Signal Processor 1989 >> > DSP16-DS Digital Signal Processor Development System 1987 >> > DSP32C Digital Signal Processor June 1988 >> > DSP32C Digital Signal Processor Dec. 1988 >> > DSP32C Application Software Library 1989 >> > Microelectronic Products Selection Guide 1993 >> > >> > Avantek >> > Microwave & Millimeter Wave Amplifiers 1989 >> > >> > Burr-Brown >> > Handbook of Personal Computer Instrumentation 4th Edition >> > >> > California Micro Devices Corp. >> > Microcircuits Data Book 1989 >> > >> > Catalyst Semiconductor Data Book 1996/97 >> > >> > Dallas >> > DS5000 Soft Microcontroller 1990 >> > >> > Datel >> > DC/DC Converters 1999 >> > >> > Dynex Semiconductor >> > Power Semiconductors Product Guide 2000 >> > >> > Ferranti >> > VMOS Data Book 1981 >> > >> > Fujitsu >> > Bipolar Memory Products 1989 >> > Memories 1986-87 >> > Progammable Memory Products 1990 >> > Wireless Communication Products 1996 >> > >> > Gennum Data Book 1992 >> > >> > Harris >> > BiCMOS FCT Interface Logic 1990 >> > CMOS Digital Data Book 1986 >> > Intelligent Power ICs 1992 >> > Linear ICs for Commercial Applications 1990 >> > Power MOSFET's, IGBT's, Rectifiers, etc. 1991 >> > >> > Hitachi >> > 8 Bit Single-Chip Microcomputer Data Book 1985 >> > DRAM Data Book 1991 >> > Power Diodes 1999 >> > Wireless Communications Data Book 1995 >> > >> > Holtek >> > Remote Control Data Book 1995 >> > >> > Honeywell >> > Signal Processing Technologies 1988 >> > >> > Inmos Data Book 1987 >> > >> > Integrated Circuit Systems Short Form Catalog 1999 >> > >> > Integrated Device Technology >> > HIgh Performance Logic 1992 >> > Specialized Memories 1990/91 >> > SRAM 1991 >> > >> > Intel >> > 386 SL Microprocessor Superset Data Book 1991 >> > 386 SL 3 different booklets 1991 >> > 486 SX Microprocessor Data Book 1992 >> > CHMOS Components Handbook 1985 >> > Flash Memory (2 Book set) 1997 >> > iAPX 88 Book 1981 >> > Introduction to the iAPX 286 booklet 1982 >> > i960 CA Microprocessor Users Manual 1991 >> > i960 CA SA/SB Reference Manual 1991 >> > i960 KA/KA Programmer's Reference Manual 1991 >> > Memory Components Handbook 1986 >> > MCS-80/85 Family User's Manual 1986 >> > Microcommunications Handbook 1988 >> > PLDshell Plus/PLDasm User's Guide v3.1 1993 >> > Programmable Logic Handbook 1988 >> > Programmable Logic 1993 >> > >> > Intersil >> > Product Selection Guide 2000 >> > >> > M/A COM >> > E-Series RF Signal Processing Devices 1995 >> > RF, Microwave & mm Wave, MMIC, Hybrid & Passive Comp. 1994 >> > RF, Microwave & mm Wave, Coax Connectors, Adapters, Tools & Accy. >> >> > 1996 >> > RF, Microwave & mm Wave, Single & Multi-Function Components & >> > Subassemblies 1996 >> > >> > Microchip >> > Embedded Control Handbook V.1 1997 >> > Third Party Guide 1996/1997 >> > >> > Micron >> > DRAM 1997 >> > Flash Memory 1998 >> > Specialty DRAM 1993 >> > SRAM 1997 >> > >> > Mitsubishi >> > Audio 1982 >> > GaAs FET's 1986 >> > General Purpose IC's 1987 >> > Memories 1989 >> > Video 1982 >> > >> > Monolithic Memories >> > LSI Databook 1985 >> > >> > Mosel CMOS (Memories) Data Book 1990 >> > >> > Motorola >> > 16/32-Bit Microcomputer System Components >> > BiCMOS Logic 1990 >> > Direct Memory Access Controller (DMAC) MC68450 1986 >> > Dual Asychronous Receiver/Transmitter (DUART) MC68681 1985 >> > I960 Data Booklets (5 different) 1992-1993 >> > IBM PC/XT/AT Floppy Disk Controller Family 1992 >> > Industrial Control Unit MC14500B 1977 >> > M68HC11 Programmer's Reference Manual 1985 >> > MC68020 32-Bit Microprocessor User's Manual, 2nd edition 1985 >> > Neuron Chip Distributed Communications & Control Processors 1992 >> > Raster Memory Controller (RMC) MC68487 1986 >> > SCSI Protocol Controller (SPC) 1992 >> > X.25 Protocol Controller (XPC) MC68605 1986 >> > >> > National >> > 48 Series Microprocessors Handbook 1980 >> > Analog & Interface Products Databook w/CD ROM 1999 >> > Application Specific Analog Products 1995 >> > COP8 Development Tools 1995 >> > EEPROM Databook 1985 >> > Embedded System Processor Databook 1989 >> > FACT Advanced CMOS logic Databook 1993 >> > IDM2900 Family Microprocessor Databook 1980 >> > Linear 1975 >> > Low Voltage Databook 1992 >> > Crossvolt Low Voltage Logic Databook 1994 >> > Interface Databook 1988 >> > Interface Data Transmission 1994 >> > Mass Storage 1986 >> > Microcontroller Databook 1987 >> > Microcontrollers Databook 1988 >> > Military/Aerospace Selection Guide 1992 >> > NSC800 Microprocessor Family Databook 1985 >> > NS16000 Databook 1993 >> > Series 32000 Databook 1984 >> > Voltage Regulator Handbook 1975 >> > >> > NEC Electronics >> > 16 Bit V Series Microprocessors 1991 >> > Application Specific Standard Products 1994 >> > Display Driver IC's Data Sheet Pack 1990 >> > DSP & Speech Processor Products 1992 >> > Memory DRAM, DRAM modules, Video RAM's 1993 >> > Memory SRAM, ASM, EEPROM 1993 >> > Microcomputer Products Shortform Catalog 1991 >> > Optical Semiconductor Devices Data Sheet Pack 1991 >> > Single Chip Microcontroller Data Book 1990 >> > VLSI MOS Memory RAM/ROM & Memrory Cards 1997 >> > >> > NCR Data Book 1985 >> > >> > Oki >> > Codec/Echo Canceller Family 1997 >> > Memory 1990 >> > Microcontroller 1990 >> > Microprocessor 1989 >> > Voice Synthesis LSI 1990 >> > >> > Phillips >> > Ferrocube Soft Ferrites & Accessories 2000 >> > PSD3XX Programmable Microprocessor Peripherals 1993 >> > RF Power Transistors 1989 >> > >> > Pioneer Semiconductor >> > High Performance CMOS/BiCMOS Data Book 1993 >> > >> > Quality Semiconductor >> > FCT Logic & Clock Management 1995 >> > Quick Switch Products 1995 >> > Specialty Memory Products 1995 >> > 3 Short form guides plus Dual Port Ram book 1995/6 >> > >> > RCA >> > Advanced CMOS Logic IC's 54/74 AC & 54/74ACT Series 1987 >> > High Speed CMOS Logic IC's 54/74 HC & 54/74HCT Series 1986 >> > Power MOSFET's 1984 >> > >> > RF Micro-Devices >> > Silicon Innovations 1998 >> > 2000 Designer's Handbook w/CD ROM >> > >> > Rockwell >> > C19 Microcomputer Technical Reference Manual (Preliminary) 1990 >> > C29/C39 Microcomputer Technical Reference Manual (Preliminary) >> 1993 >> > >> > Samsung >> > Linear IC Data Book 1988 >> > >> > Sharp >> > Memory Data Book 1993 >> > >> > Siemens >> > 8-Bit Single-Chip Microcontroller Handbook 1989/90 >> > Bipolar LSI Data Manual 1984 >> > Memory Components 1994 >> > Microcontrollers, Microprocessors, Peripherals & Memory 1988/89 >> > >> > Signetics >> > FAST Data Manual 1987 >> > Microcontroller Users' Guide 1989 >> > Programmable Logic Data Manual 1987 >> > >> > Silicon Systems >> > Storage Products Data Book 1994 >> > >> > Simtek Data Book 1994 >> > >> > Sipex >> > Data Conversion Products 1995 >> > Hybrid Systems DataLinear 1988 >> > Inteface Products 1994 >> > >> > Sony >> > A/D, D/A Converters 1990 >> > Discrete Semiconductor 1992 >> > Memory 1993 >> > >> > Stanford Microdevices >> > Wireless Products Catalog 1998 >> > >> > Standard Microsystems Catalog 1986 >> > >> > Startech (An Exar Company) >> > Catalog 1996 >> > Shortform Catalog 1995 >> > >> > Telcom Semiconductor Data Book 1997 >> > >> > Telefunken >> > Diodes 1988 >> > Integrated Circuits Radio & Audio 1986 >> > Integrated Circuits for Telecommunication 1987 >> > Microwave/UHF/VHF IC's & Tuner Modules 1988 >> > Optocouplers 1987 >> > Power Transistors 1989 >> > Transistors for AF & Switching Applications 1985 >> > Transistors for RF Applications 1985 >> > >> > Texas Instruments >> > ALS/AS Logic Data Book 1986 >> > Advanced Logic & Bus Interface Logic 1991 >> > Data Transmission Circuits - Line Ciruits 1995/1996 >> > Gallium Arsenide Products / Monolithic Microwave Integrated >> Circuits >> > 1994. >> > Linear Circuits 3V Family 1994 >> > MSP58C80 Mixed Signal Processor User's Guide 1995 >> > Master Selection Guide 1986 >> > TMS370 Family Data Manual 1990 >> > TMS1000 Series Preprogammed & Standard Devices 1982 >> > TMS7000 Family Data Manual 1986 >> > TMS320C1x User's Guide 1989 >> > TMS320C2x User's Guide 1987 >> > TMS320C3x User's Guide 1990 >> > TMS320C5x User's Guide 1993 >> > TMS320C64x & TMS320C55x Technical Lit. Kit 2000 >> > TMS320C14/TMS320E14 User's Guide 1988 >> > TMS320 Family Development Support 1989 >> > TPIC6595 Power+ Logic 1992 >> > TSP50C)x/1x Speech Synthesizer Family 1994 >> > Progammable Logic Data Book 1988 >> > Progammable Logic Qualification Data 1988 >> > Gallium Arsenide Products Designer's Information 1992 >> > Operational Amplifier Selection Guide 1993 >> > Linear Products Surface Mount Availablity Guide 1994 >> > >> > Thompson (Mostek) >> > Communications Products 1987 >> > Memory Data Book 1987 >> > Microprocessors & Peripherals 1987 >> > >> > Toshiba >> > 1M DRAM, 1M VRAM 1991 >> > Bipolar IC 1989 >> > CMOS Logic TC74AC/ACT Series, TC74HC/HCT Series 1990 >> > Diode Databook 1984 >> > Microcomputer Peripheral Controller LSI's 1990 >> > Mos Memory 1986 >> > Speech Devices 1988 >> > Static Ram 1992 >> > TMP68HC05, TMP68HC11 1990 >> > >> > TriQuint >> > Wireless Communication 1997 >> > >> > TRW >> > GaAs Telecom Products 1998 >> > >> > Vitelic >> > Memory Data Catalog 1990/91 >> > >> > VTC >> > High Performance Integrated Circuits 1985 >> > >> > Western Digital >> > Components Handbook 1983 >> > Network Products Handbook 1983 >> > Storage Management Products Handbook 1986 >> > >> > Xecom Catalog 1990 >> > >> > Zilog >> > Discrete Z8 Microcontrollers 1994 >> > Infrared Remote Controllers 1993 >> > Keyboard & Mouse/Pointing Devices 1993 >> > Mass Storage Solutions 1993 >> > Serial Communication Controllers 1993 >> > High-Speed Serial Communication Controllers 1993 >> > >> > Zytrex >> > ZX54/74ACHT & ZX54/74HCTLS Logic Familes 1985 >> > >> > >> > All of the above, $8 per pound including media rate shipping >> > >> > Contact: Marv WC6W 310 649 3111 (reasonable hours Pacific >> Time >> > please) >> > or via: Marv_E_Ads@Juno.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > * >> > >> > ________________________________________________________________ >> > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! >> > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! >> > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Test-Equipment mailing list >> > Test-Equipment@mailman.qth.net >> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/test-equipment >> > >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 15:35:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 22, 4 03:56:45 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, I am at it again... > > Powering up the "really nice" ASR-33 that I pickjed up last weekend. After > checking thing out [voltages mechanical inspection, etc] I have powered it > up. > [F4 the fuse for the motor WAS blown, a replacement of the ssame rating is > holding]. > > Motor spins up nicely (real quiet and sweet!), with the mode set to local, > the break and here-is keys do the "right things", however NONE of the other > keys do. My first thought was an issue with the keyboard unit, but a swap You say the other keys don't do the right thing. Do they do _anything_? In particular, when you press a key, the distributor brush should spin round once. Does it? If not, it indicates a mechanical problem in the linkage or the clutch. What happens if you switch to 'Line' (nothing on the loop)? Does the machine 'space out' -- in other words does the receive mechanism run continuously. If not, then either the selector magnet (the solenoid at the rear left corner of the typing unit) is energised continuously (shorted transsitor in the driver?) or the mechanism is malfunctioning. But you said that 'Break' did the right things (I assume this does cause the machine to space out), so this implies the seleector side is doing something. Unplug the reader for the moment (just pull out its molex plug). A short in that nuit will mess up the keyboard (the reader contacts and keyboard contacts are wired in parallel). > A reply e-mail would be appreciated, a call bfrom anyone with an idea and a > few minutes would be great! [If it is long distance, I can call anyone > willing to help]. I don;t think it's worth calling me across the Pond :-) -tony From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 22 15:59:29 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: VT220 guide claimed Message-ID: <200408221359290648.0B415C1C@192.168.42.129> The VT220 pocket guide has been claimed. Thanks to those who responded. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Aug 22 17:04:57 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony, Thanks for the response... >>>You say the other keys don't do the right thing. Do they do _anything_? >>> In particular, when you press a key, the distributor brush should spin >>> round once. Does it? If not, it indicates a mechanical problem in the >>> linkage or the clutch. The keys do Nothing (although I can see the armatures freely moving up and down. The rotor does NOT move at all. The break key DOES cause it to "space out", as expected. Putting the device in line, does NOT cause it to space out. In my mind this indicates that the selector magnet is functional...IS THIS CORRECT? Disconnecting the reader is a good idea (should have thought of that one...). If that does not yeild a clue, I can always pull the keyboard, and see if the reader will feed a type [I have not even tried the reader, although the power looks good. I will test right after dinner. >>> I don;t think it's worth calling me across the Pond :-) You would not believe how much this means to me...The cost would be worth it [my business line is FULL of international calls]. Too late tonight (for you though), and there are still some good ideas to try. David. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Aug 22 17:30:54 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: FW: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... Message-ID: On my ASR-33 Looks like it may be a bad transistor in the receive circuit.... Basis for conclusion: 1) switching keyboard units has no effect. 2) disconnecting reader unit has no effect 3) R7 on receive control bord is HOT (to the touch) 4) Selector magnet appears always engaged. 5) Unit does NOT space-out when put in line mode. Now to just find a source for the proper replacement transistors....... David From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 22 17:02:00 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408222222.SAA05718@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The guy was trying to preserve something important to him, and you >> tried to humiliate him for it. > I didn't try to humiliate anyone. That's certainly how it came across to me, and I'm not even one of the principals involved. You may want to have a look at your communication style, since it appears you're generating impressions you don't intend - unless of course you just didn't care whether you came across as trying to be humiliating. (Or, I suppose, unless the humiliating attitude comes so naturally to you you don't even have to try - but that's not how you've usually come across to me, so it seems unlikely.) > You're not the list etiquette cop, so I can only interpret this as a > personal gripe. Actually, from my time here, I'd say that everyone is list etiquette cop - get excessive and various people will cluestick you for it, roughly in proportion to the severity of the offense. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 22 17:55:21 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Places in LA? Message-ID: <584573BA-F48E-11D8-B289-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Ok, I have more time on my hands than money - Are there places in LA where Classic Computers are found? I like to go look, even if I can't buy :^) From evan947 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 18:18:36 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Places in LA? Message-ID: <20040822231836.77616.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> I don't know of a place in LA, but for anyone who's interested, I keep an "On the road: Where to see old computers" directory at the web site for the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter. The site is http://news.computercollector.com. - Evan From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Aug 22 19:20:42 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: ***needed: Auerbach books, reports and journals especially. the early ones. Also any early data processing journals and information. reply off list to me directly please. Message-ID: <02d701c488a7$06921750$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> ***needed: Auerbach books, reports and journals especially. the early ones. Also any early data processing journals and information. reply off list to me directly please. Thanks Ed Sharpe, Archivist for SMECC - - See the Museum's Web Site at www.smecc.org Coury House / SMECC 5802 W. Palmaire Ave. Phone 623-435-1522 Glendale Az 85301 USA From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 22 19:59:37 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408222222.SAA05718@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, der Mouse wrote: > That's certainly how it came across to me, and I'm not even one of the > principals involved. You may want to have a look at your communication > style, since it appears you're generating impressions you don't intend You're the absolute LAST person to be suggesting that someone else consider their style of communication. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Aug 22 20:13:44 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following is a classic case of "over-snip"..... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 9:00 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: What fun from a Macintosh SE >>> >>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, der Mouse wrote: >>> >>> > That's certainly how it came across to me, and I'm not >>> even one of the >>> > principals involved. You may want to have a look at your >>> > communication style, since it appears you're generating >>> impressions >>> > you don't intend >>> >>> You're the absolute LAST person to be suggesting that >>> someone else consider their style of communication. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Aug 22 20:23:31 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE References: Message-ID: <033601c488af$d01b2230$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Let's all just try to be kind ok? sometimes an effort must be made to temper a really direct answer. Yea... I know it is hard... there are times I have 3 volunteers shoving things in my face wondering what to do with them, 5 telemarketing calls came in a row.... spilled my coffee on my new shirt.... you notice a seller on eBay seems to be using a shill.... all the crap you have piled on top of the HP scanner fax printer thing falls off when you have it piled too high and are trying to raise it up to put a print cartridge in it ( why should it fall it was only stacked 2 feet high)..... the server goes down..... it is hard sometimes not to be abrupt when we are trying to do so many things at once, and some of us ( myself included) tend towards short abrupt answers.....but.... even though you may have been through this in a mornings time... it is good to think , pause, collect your thoughts, then answer the next question.... remember also, we are all here because we are looking to learn, wanting to associate with others with similar interests, or are just curious... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 6:13 PM Subject: RE: What fun from a Macintosh SE > The following is a classic case of "over-snip"..... > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > >>> Computer Festival > >>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 9:00 PM > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Subject: Re: What fun from a Macintosh SE > >>> > >>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, der Mouse wrote: > >>> > >>> > That's certainly how it came across to me, and I'm not > >>> even one of the > >>> > principals involved. You may want to have a look at your > >>> > communication style, since it appears you're generating > >>> impressions > >>> > you don't intend > >>> > >>> You're the absolute LAST person to be suggesting that > >>> someone else consider their style of communication. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Sellam Ismail > >>> Vintage Computer Festival > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------------ > >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger > >>> http://www.vintage.org > >>> > >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade > >>> Vintage Computers ] > >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >>> > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 22 20:27:35 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE References: <033601c488af$d01b2230$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <004801c488b0$5ee4a180$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> * cough * "Uncle" From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 20:31:36 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Funny. The first bid is mine. Stephane. On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:56:37 -0700 (PDT), SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860, > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From gtoal at gtoal.com Sun Aug 22 23:04:55 2004 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: would anyone read a couple of DECtapes for me? (USA) Message-ID: <41296CE7.mailAXA1Q0MSY@gtoal.com> Some time back our project (the Edinburgh Computer History project) organised a trip to Grenoble to meet Hans Pufal and read a box of DECtapes on his PDP9. Since then we've had a few more tapes turn up and I have a couple of them over here in the states. Is there anyone over here who would be willing to read them for us please? We have code to decode the contents; we just need a raw dump of the blocks. I have one which I can mail any time as a test (some old Fortran code, not very historically significant) and if all goes well I will be getting a second one soon from one of our group members which does have some significant code on it that we'd very much like to recover. Drop me a line - gtoal@gtoal.com - if you can help. (If you reply here, I'm not being rude by not replying immediately - I read this group in digest format so I get it a day late) Thanks Graham From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 23:51:38 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 22, 4 06:04:57 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, > > Thanks for the response... > > >>>You say the other keys don't do the right thing. Do they do _anything_? > > >>> In particular, when you press a key, the distributor brush should spin > >>> round once. Does it? If not, it indicates a mechanical problem in the > >>> linkage or the clutch. > > The keys do Nothing (although I can see the armatures freely moving up and > down. The rotor does NOT move at all. The break key DOES cause it to "space If pressing a key doesn't cause the distributor to spin, then there's a mechanical problem. You want to investigate the linkage that starts at the ekyboard (the metal strip that the H-plate slots into should turn counterclockwise seen from the left side when you press a key, and is returned to the clcokwise position by the H-plate). Then trace the linkage via the H-plate to the clutch at the back. This should engage when the key is pressed. > out", as expected. Putting the device in line, does NOT cause it to space > out. In my mind this indicates that the selector magnet is functional...IS YEs, it sounds like the selector is OK. > THIS CORRECT? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 23:54:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: FW: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 22, 4 06:30:54 pm Message-ID: > > On my ASR-33 Looks like it may be a bad transistor in the receive > circuit.... > > Basis for conclusion: > > 1) switching keyboard units has no effect. > 2) disconnecting reader unit has no effect That is to be expected if pressing a key doesn't cause the distributor to rotate. What happens if you press the armature on the magnet at the rear right of the typing unit (the one with the black and white wires, on top of the transmit clutch area? > 3) R7 on receive control bord is HOT (to the touch) > 4) Selector magnet appears always engaged. It should be. > 5) Unit does NOT space-out when put in line mode. As it spaces out when you press break, I think the driver is working. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 23 01:36:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE Message-ID: Is there a competent X-Windows programmer in the house? The folks at XGameStation need to port their graphical IDE to a Linux environment. I don't have many more details but if you are interested in learning more then please e-mail me and I'll forward you to the appropriate party. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 23 06:34:45 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Reading Books in the Store (was: What fun from a Macintosh SE) In-Reply-To: References: <20040821101251.252a39a0.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 21, 4 10:12:51 am Message-ID: <4129F275.21793.475BFBC2@localhost> Am 21 Aug 2004 23:05 meinte Tony Duell: > > The real kick was, I didn't even have to buy the screwdriver. There was > > no visible damage to the screwdriver tip from my careful work, so it > > went back on the shelf. > I find this mroally very wrong. I can't believe yor tool shops offer a > free lending service for tools, I know ours don't. > Ditto for books, actually. I have no problem with looking at books in the > bookshop to find which one contains the information I need, but when I've > found said book I buy it. I don't make notes in a pocket notebook so as > not to have to buy the book (I do, of course, do that in public > libraries, but that's what libraries are for). Well, by now, the bookstores (at least the larger ones) hanve even reading areas, where people take a book, sit down and read it, without paying. Usualy cramped with people reading. Any, at least according to their studies, it makes them selling _more_ books. and even people who go in, just to read, without buying often end up buying it. After all, books are a kind of addictive drug, and that's the way they give out a free fix ;) It's like car sales over here uswualy give you a car for a full weekend for a testdrive (ok, when it comes to cars, you should at least give them an impression that your'e the one to buy it :) And yes, we have public libraries (still more than 30 within the city borders), and some 60+ neighborhood locations are served by one of the five 'Bucherbus' - rolling libraries with some 20,000+ books, serving each location once a week. And if you don't find what you're looking for, thell them, and next week you'll pick it up. Still, I think the laisse faire attitude of the book stores helps in promoteing reading no matter if science, or parascience :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 23 07:00:59 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> If pressing a key doesn't cause the distributor to spin, >>> then there's a mechanical problem. You want to investigate >>> the linkage that starts at the ekyboard (the metal strip >>> that the H-plate slots into should turn counterclockwise >>> seen from the left side when you press a key, and is >>> returned to the clcokwise position by the H-plate). Then >>> trace the linkage via the H-plate to the clutch at the >>> back. This should engage when the key is pressed. >>> I always get turned around with spacial relationships in the written word..... Comparing the linkage position to the one on my working unit. It is indeed in the "deactivated" position and does NOT move when a key is pressed [as a clarication, the "far" ent of the linkage extends through a slot on the front of the keyboard assembly. On the working unit, qhen no key is pressed, the end is down, it travels up when the key is pressed and returns down when the typing unit finishes its cycle. On the new unit this end is always in the down position]. Attempting to move the linkage (but not overly forcing it] is futile. Visual inspection of the path [at least what I can see without moving the typing unit out of the chassis bay], does not reveal anything. Are there any typical binding points? Should I be thinking about a seized clutch? David. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 23 08:06:33 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <412A07F9.14384.47B00658@localhost> Am 22 Aug 2004 23:36 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > > Is there a competent X-Windows programmer in the house? The folks at > XGameStation need to port their graphical IDE to a Linux environment. I > don't have many more details but if you are interested in learning more > then please e-mail me and I'll forward you to the appropriate party. Uh-oh if it'S native windows right now, it will be a pure nightmare. Especialy whany they expect to have future releases on both platforms. The best aproach would be switching for a complete environment, that is available on both platforms ... for example Qt. First port the App to a QT base and then just move it over to Linux. Qt is 100% compatible availabe forWindows, X11 and Mac (and an embedded aproaches for embedded Linux), so moveing over would also open the IDE to Mac Fans. Also, maybe most important, if the actual implementation is MFC based (I suppose so), there is an almost automated way to move an MFC App to Qt. Ok, it's still work, nonetheless, they put in a lot of work to make it easey. They even cover some areas of DirectX. Most of the changes are needed to hide the more advanced messageing functions of Qt from the Win core. Qt is somewhere between free and non free. As long as you provide the source of your application to the public, you may also use Qt for free - all Libs and Docs are available. If you want to keep the source sode for yourself, aou got to buy a licence per developer. So if the XGS IDE is open source, its a win win. If not, the prices are quite competive. Take a look at their website: http://www.trolltech.com/ A good start for these people could be the QT days in November http://www.trolltech.com/forms/qtday.html?land=us Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 23 08:10:18 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: HP2100a VS HP2100s References: <01a801c486f9$3d53d760$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <41266B8C.3010107@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <00bd01c48912$89cc49e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> John wrote... > Surely the 2100S has user-writeable microcode? The front panel > says "Microprogrammable Systems Computer": As a followup - I just found over the weekend something I wasn't aware of. Apparently the 2100A/S isn't "entirely" microprogrammable. In order to maintain full compatability with the earlier systems (2114/2115/2116), about 2/3 of the instruction set is microprogrammed (the base set of microcode in module 0). The other 1/3 of the base instruction set is actually done in hardware - mostly. This is because the few instructions that are built into the hardware would take too long to execute in microcode. However, for those hardware based instructions to execute, that circuitry needs to be enabled via microcode instructions. Fascinating, I had no idea. Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 23 08:48:18 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: <412A07F9.14384.47B00658@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Aug 23, 4 03:06:33 pm" Message-ID: <200408231348.GAA13550@floodgap.com> > > Is there a competent X-Windows programmer in the house? The folks at > > XGameStation need to port their graphical IDE to a Linux environment. I > > don't have many more details but if you are interested in learning more > > then please e-mail me and I'll forward you to the appropriate party. > > Uh-oh if it'S native windows right now, it will be a pure nightmare. > Especialy whany they expect to have future releases on both platforms. > The best aproach would be switching for a complete environment, that > is available on both platforms ... for example Qt. First port the App > to a QT base and then just move it over to Linux. > Qt is 100% compatible availabe forWindows, X11 and Mac (and an > embedded aproaches for embedded Linux), so moveing over would > also open the IDE to Mac Fans. I couldn't agree more with Hans as far as implementation, and the fact that the IDE is Windows-only is its greatest barrier to me (I thought Andre was going to have open-source tools from the getgo?). If Andre wants a Mac beta-tester for checking that the system works and properly compiles/generates object code, I have Jaguar and Panther available here. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Always proofreed you writing. ---------------------------------------------- From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 23 08:39:35 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Enigma References: <200408202233.PAA05840@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16681.62359.652000.392870@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >>> Bizarre. Ebay does not allow me to see that item. It says "due >>> to restrictions in your home country" which is utter nonsense. >>> It's possible that the UK has export restrictions, but that's not >>> what it said... Dwight> Hi I'm in the US and have no problem looking at it?? Dwight Strange. I guess Ebay UK is defective. Dwight was kind enough to forward a pointer to the picture. It looks like a "Baudot" code machine (three rows, "figures" and "letters" keys). The keyboard layout is German (or for another German-speaking country where the QWERTZ layout is used). The labels are French and German, which suggests it might be Swiss manufacture, but I can't make out the manufacturer's name. No way is this WW2 vintage, nor is it an Enigma. It's been too lnog since I read Kahn, so I can't remember what other rotor machines existed a couple of decades ago. Might it be an M209 clone? paul From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Aug 23 09:23:10 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: <412A07F9.14384.47B00658@localhost> References: <412A07F9.14384.47B00658@localhost> Message-ID: <4129FDCE.5000606@pacbell.net> Hans Franke wrote: ... > Uh-oh if it'S native windows right now, it will be a pure nightmare. > Especialy whany they expect to have future releases on both platforms. > > The best aproach would be switching for a complete environment, that > is available on both platforms ... for example Qt. First port the App > to a QT base and then just move it over to Linux. > > Qt is 100% compatible availabe forWindows, X11 and Mac (and an > embedded aproaches for embedded Linux), so moveing over would > also open the IDE to Mac Fans. ... > Qt is somewhere between free and non free. As long as you provide > the source of your application to the public, you may also use Qt > for free - all Libs and Docs are available. If you want to keep > the source sode for yourself, aou got to buy a licence per developer. I'll put in a plug for wxWidgets (formerly wxWindows). It is cross platform and has the bonus that it is open source. The developers are very accessible and are quite responsive. I used it for my wang 2200 emulator and wish I had known about it when I wrote my Sol emulator. In the past I understand that the Mac portion was seriously lagging in its polish, but they have put a lot of work into bringing it up to par. http://wxwidgets.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 23 10:37:42 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: HP 2100 book sought ($BOUNTY$) Message-ID: <016b01c48927$21294860$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I'm looking for an original copy (not pdf or other electronic format) of the "HP Pocket Reference Guide to the 2100 Computer". Unlike the title suggests, it's hardly pocket-sized. It's about 450 pages, with roughly 5x8 pages. I'm willing to pay non-trivial sums of cash, or provide lopsided trades, for said book. Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 23 11:10:08 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1085586123.12717.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <412A3300.25127.48581A8B@localhost> Am 21 Aug 2004 18:56 meinte SHAUN RIPLEY: > Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860, > looks like a prety of the shelf 486 EISA Server board. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 23 12:02:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: <200408231348.GAA13550@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I couldn't agree more with Hans as far as implementation, and the fact > that the IDE is Windows-only is its greatest barrier to me (I thought > Andre was going to have open-source tools from the getgo?). If Andre > wants a Mac beta-tester for checking that the system works and properly > compiles/generates object code, I have Jaguar and Panther available > here. He intended all along to have a Linux IDE. I can't remember why he put that aside early on (lack of time I'm sure) but now he's revisiting it because my guess is he's getting a lot of inquiries for a Linux IDE. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Aug 23 12:12:07 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread Message-ID: Sellam wrote >I suppose you're also going to tell me there's a South Carolina! HA! Having geographic knowledge is a dying interest. When there were still phone operators calling my relatives in New Mexico occasionally was a problem because the phone operators think it's an international call. However my patents live in Waverly which is near Dover, Lexington, Napoleon, and Wellington. Most of these towns are less than several hundred. I'm sure in the 1800's we borrowed the names from some foreign country. Mike From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 23 12:26:53 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:25 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: References: <200408231348.GAA13550@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <412A44FD.29500.489E5F12@localhost> Am 23 Aug 2004 10:02 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I couldn't agree more with Hans as far as implementation, and the fact > > that the IDE is Windows-only is its greatest barrier to me (I thought > > Andre was going to have open-source tools from the getgo?). If Andre > > wants a Mac beta-tester for checking that the system works and properly > > compiles/generates object code, I have Jaguar and Panther available > > here. > He intended all along to have a Linux IDE. I can't remember why he put > that aside early on (lack of time I'm sure) but now he's revisiting it > because my guess is he's getting a lot of inquiries for a Linux IDE. But right now it's Windows, isn't it? So he should definitly got for Qt and a real multi platform aproach. oterwise he'll loose the Windows people. And yeah, not to mention the huge numer of Mac user ... no, this is not an Ironic statement. After all, the Mac area is (as always) some kind of orphaned wasteland, which menas that such projects get a lot of attention if they support Mac (as it is for linux). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From lists at microvax.org Mon Aug 23 12:35:43 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Emulex MV11 on eBay Message-ID: <007101c48937$9f3a2110$0a00a8c0@coffee> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5715172371&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT It's guarenteed for 15 days after shipping, $9 postage. I'm currently bidding on it up to $40 but I can't afford it now anyway so i'm letting the list know about it! >___< alex/melt From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 23 12:38:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... Message-ID: <200408231738.KAA08447@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David V. Corbin" > >>>> >>>> If pressing a key doesn't cause the distributor to spin, >>>> then there's a mechanical problem. You want to investigate >>>> the linkage that starts at the ekyboard (the metal strip >>>> that the H-plate slots into should turn counterclockwise >>>> seen from the left side when you press a key, and is >>>> returned to the clcokwise position by the H-plate). Then >>>> trace the linkage via the H-plate to the clutch at the >>>> back. This should engage when the key is pressed. >>>> > >I always get turned around with spacial relationships in the written >word..... > >Comparing the linkage position to the one on my working unit. It is indeed >in the "deactivated" position and does NOT move when a key is pressed [as a >clarication, the "far" ent of the linkage extends through a slot on the >front of the keyboard assembly. On the working unit, qhen no key is pressed, >the end is down, it travels up when the key is pressed and returns down >when the typing unit finishes its cycle. On the new unit this end is always >in the down position]. > >Attempting to move the linkage (but not overly forcing it] is futile. > >Visual inspection of the path [at least what I can see without moving the >typing unit out of the chassis bay], does not reveal anything. Are there any >typical binding points? Should I be thinking about a seized clutch? > >David. > > Hi David This could have been the cause of the fuse blowing. A jammed keyboard reset linkage might have frozen up the clutch causing the motor to stall. You should remove the print assembly and find the cause of the linkage to jam. The clutch may already be toast. If it is not in the locked up state when you turn the motor on, it would have to be slipping ( not good ). Find the linkage problem. You may have to remove the print assembly because the linkage goes under this part. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 23 12:50:20 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Emulex MV11 on eBay In-Reply-To: <007101c48937$9f3a2110$0a00a8c0@coffee> from "meltie" at Aug 23, 2004 06:35:43 PM Message-ID: <200408231750.i7NHoKd2009426@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5715172371&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT > > It's guarenteed for 15 days after shipping, $9 postage. I'm currently > bidding on it up to $40 but I can't afford it now anyway so i'm letting the > list know about it! >___< > > alex/melt Are SMD controllers actually that sought after? I for one would much rather use a ESDI or SCSI controller. BTW, I'm not sure why it's listed as an MV11, it appears to be a Emulex QD33 based on what little description there is. Zane From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Aug 23 12:54:42 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Emulex MV11 on eBay In-Reply-To: <007101c48937$9f3a2110$0a00a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040823134319.03426b98@192.168.0.1> At 01:35 PM 8/23/2004, you wrote: >It's guarenteed for 15 days after shipping, $9 postage. I'm currently >bidding on it up to $40 but I can't afford it now anyway so i'm letting the >list know about it! >___< > >alex/melt QD33 is SMD controller. Anyone know the difference between it and the QD32? (QD33 is SMD/E? maybe) Having a QD32 with manual and software, I got a NEC 2257 SMD drive to go with it. Forgot the cables were so gronky and SMD drives typically need beaucoup 24volts plus +12v, -12v, +5v, -5v sheesh! Should have got a drive with PS built in like CDC 97xx. Now just have to get power supplies, chassis to hold them all and drive, cables, and a few spare days and I'll have a ... 160MB room heater, noise maker. I think I teledisked the software to someone off list if anyone needs it. Ed From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 23 13:12:32 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040821091824.79462afe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <412A4FB0.26893.48C82856@localhost> Am 21 Aug 2004 8:07 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:59:08 -0700 (PDT) > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > > > > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? > > > Hey, what's all this foreign speak!? Are you guys plotting something > > > unsavory? Damn Mexicans. > > Fremde Sprache? Kommt auf den Standpunkt an. ;-))) > In Amerika, alle volk nicht von hier ist Fremde ;) You mean everyone beside gophers, praerie dogs and road runners? *G* H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 23 14:39:47 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040823151555.052b34f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > Consider paper inter-office mail. If a person is goinf to reply/forward a > > > printed message, they will often [at least in the old days], type up > a page > > > with their information [anyone have a Royal Typewriter handy], and attach > > > the original [or a copy] BEHIND it...... > > > > That's because they didn't have computers back then. > >Yes they did. They were the people who operated the calculating machines :-) Altho I'm certainly no exspurt on the Queen's English, at least as far as "correct" American English goes, the spelling for the word defined as "People who are operating the computing machines" would be: Computors. ^ This even holds true for people who stick 2 pieces of metal together with a hot stick - Welders are the devices used, Weldors are the people running the devices. Granted, most people don't use the "correct" terminology anymore, and when people change the popular use of the word, it changes the word... (else we'd still be spelling jail as Gaol... ;-) ) Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 worth of useless trivia... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From gtoal at gtoal.com Mon Aug 23 14:57:25 2004 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: would anyone read a couple of DECtapes for me? (USA) Message-ID: <412A4C25.mailCBG11YQ91@gtoal.com> Thank you folks, I have accepted Al Kossow's offer of reading our two DECtapes which are here in America (and I'm keeping Hans Pufal in my back pocket in case any more tapes turn up in Scotland. Fortunately I have big pockets.) Graham From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 23 15:19:30 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: <412A44FD.29500.489E5F12@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Aug 23, 4 07:26:53 pm" Message-ID: <200408232019.NAA16758@floodgap.com> > But right now it's Windows, isn't it? So he should definitly got > for Qt and a real multi platform aproach. oterwise he'll loose > the Windows people. And yeah, not to mention the huge numer of > Mac user ... no, this is not an Ironic statement. After all, the > Mac area is (as always) some kind of orphaned wasteland, which > menas that such projects get a lot of attention if they support > Mac (as it is for linux). Plus, too, with OS X it's ridiculously easy to port many Unix apps to the Mac. Even if you don't support Aqua, there's been X11 support since Jaguar (and it now comes standard with Panther), and I think Qt does have support for Aqua/Cocoa controls anyway. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. -- Salvor Hardin ----------- From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 23 15:16:45 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: <200408232019.NAA16758@floodgap.com> References: <412A44FD.29500.489E5F12@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Aug 23, 4 07:26:53 pm" Message-ID: <412A6CCD.28523.4939E2D6@localhost> Am 23 Aug 2004 13:19 meinte Cameron Kaiser: > > But right now it's Windows, isn't it? So he should definitly got > > for Qt and a real multi platform aproach. oterwise he'll loose > > the Windows people. And yeah, not to mention the huge numer of > > Mac user ... no, this is not an Ironic statement. After all, the > > Mac area is (as always) some kind of orphaned wasteland, which > > menas that such projects get a lot of attention if they support > > Mac (as it is for linux). > Plus, too, with OS X it's ridiculously easy to port many Unix apps to the > Mac. Even if you don't support Aqua, there's been X11 support since Jaguar > (and it now comes standard with Panther), and I think Qt does have support > for Aqua/Cocoa controls anyway. Now, that again is an argument against porting to Mac - was this your intend? I mean, a Unix X11 port is not a Mac port... and if I want to run a Unix, then I get myself a nixe x86 based Laptop and put Linux on ther ... no need for high priced Mac hardware. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 23 15:24:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 Message-ID: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> http:/wps.com/temp/Terminet-300.jpg Not for the squeamish. Four photos, arranged like so: 1 2 3 4 Keep in mind this was 1984, the damn thing weighed about 80 lbs, and was maximally flaking out with a few pickets broken off the print fence. Excuses, excuses... Tim Pozar was the photographer. From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 23 15:48:44 2004 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> Message-ID: <001d01c48952$96539480$6c881442@computer> From: Tom Jennings > http:/wps.com/temp/Terminet-300.jpg > > Not for the squeamish. Four photos, arranged like so: > > heh. after moving mine a few times... empathy. here's mine: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/ge30001.jpg I also still have it's service manual somewhere for after gravity's angel kiss here though. ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 16:20:31 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Free Tandy 1000TL w/ keyboard, monitor Message-ID: <20040823212031.87038.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> eBayed 2x with no takers. Machine does have issues. See link for gory details. Let me know if you want it. Pickup in Massachusetts. If you want it bad enough to pay shipping, let me know and we can try to work something out. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5116894380&ssPageName=STRK:MEUS:IT _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 23 16:29:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <412A4FB0.26893.48C82856@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 21 Aug 2004 8:07 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > > On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:59:08 -0700 (PDT) > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > > p.s. Zum Gl?ck kennst du ja meine spezielle Art der Freundlichkeit. ;-) > > > > > Klar, warum glaubst Du kommen wir miteinander zurecht? > > > > Hey, what's all this foreign speak!? Are you guys plotting something > > > > unsavory? Damn Mexicans. > > > Fremde Sprache? Kommt auf den Standpunkt an. ;-))) > > In Amerika, alle volk nicht von hier ist Fremde ;) > > You mean everyone beside gophers, praerie dogs and road runners? Nope, especially the critters. You have to blow them away whenever you see them poke their head out of the ground. You can't trust 'em! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 23 16:32:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 In-Reply-To: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > http:/wps.com/temp/Terminet-300.jpg > > Not for the squeamish. Four photos, arranged like so: > > > > 1 2 > > > 3 4 > > > Keep in mind this was 1984, the damn thing weighed about 80 lbs, and was > maximally flaking out with a few pickets broken off the print fence. > Excuses, excuses... > > Tim Pozar was the photographer. It looks it actually came out OK, all things considered. The piss on the wall is a nice touch though :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 23 15:46:45 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <412802B4.2090406@execpc.com> References: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> <412802B4.2090406@execpc.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040823153646.107cf588@pc> At 09:19 PM 8/21/2004, Tom Hudson wrote: >You know, I was at Intel's press conference where they rolled out the I860, and I couldn't wait to rewrite come of my graphics code for it. I remember thinking how it was going to revolutionize the computer graphics industry. Then it kind of dropped off the map. Shows what I know. Oh, you *are* *that* Tom Hudson! I'd read your posts here for the last few months wondering if. Remember me? I wrote a 3D translator for Win/Amiga/SGI, supported .3D and .3D2, wrote the first .3DS converter, wrote among the first 3DS plug-ins, etc. And I probably still have a few Design Disks in shrink-wrap in the basement if you want them. When did you move to Port Washington? - John From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 23 18:14:22 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: OT: X programmer needed for XGameStation IDE In-Reply-To: <412A6CCD.28523.4939E2D6@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Aug 23, 4 10:16:45 pm" Message-ID: <200408232314.QAA15374@floodgap.com> > > Plus, too, with OS X it's ridiculously easy to port many Unix apps to the > > Mac. Even if you don't support Aqua, there's been X11 support since Jaguar > > (and it now comes standard with Panther), and I think Qt does have support > > for Aqua/Cocoa controls anyway. > > Now, that again is an argument against porting to Mac - was this > your intend? I mean, a Unix X11 port is not a Mac port... and if > I want to run a Unix, then I get myself a nixe x86 based Laptop > and put Linux on ther ... no need for high priced Mac hardware. Why is it an argument against it? I just wanted to point out that OS X makes it easy to walk over most X11 apps to our world, and Apples *are* the most common desktop Unix out there (to those who claim otherwise due to the misinformed 2003 IDG study, go here for some commentary on its flaws: http://jeffcroft.com/blog/archives/000288.php ). My point is that if you make a Linux version, the ease of porting and even making a "good looking" Mac application is so sizable that there's no excuse *not* to make an OS X version (and you would be ignoring a similar magnitude of users if you don't). Besides, if I want to run Unix, I *do* go buy high priced Mac hardware. It's done me well so far. All of the Unix servers I own are Macs (either overglorified, in the case of my ANS 500, or retrofitted, in the case of everything else). *poke* *poke* *poke* ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. ----------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 17:46:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040823151555.052b34f0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 23, 4 03:39:47 pm Message-ID: > > > That's because they didn't have computers back then. > > > >Yes they did. They were the people who operated the calculating machines :-) > > Altho I'm certainly no exspurt on the Queen's English, at least as far as > "correct" American English goes, the spelling for the word defined as > "People who are operating the computing machines" would be: > > Computors. > ^ > > This even holds true for people who stick 2 pieces of metal together with a > hot stick - Welders are the devices used, Weldors are the people running > the devices. I've just checked the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (this is a 2-volume English dictionary, mine is somewhat old). It doesn't contain Computor or Weldor at all. A 'Welder' is one who welds, a Computer is a person who calculates. US usage may well be different (in fact the usage may have changed in England since my dictionary was published, but I don't think it has). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 17:38:18 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 23, 4 08:00:59 am Message-ID: > > >>> > >>> If pressing a key doesn't cause the distributor to spin, > >>> then there's a mechanical problem. You want to investigate > >>> the linkage that starts at the ekyboard (the metal strip > >>> that the H-plate slots into should turn counterclockwise > >>> seen from the left side when you press a key, and is > >>> returned to the clcokwise position by the H-plate). Then > >>> trace the linkage via the H-plate to the clutch at the > >>> back. This should engage when the key is pressed. > >>> > > I always get turned around with spacial relationships in the written > word..... > > Comparing the linkage position to the one on my working unit. It is indeed > in the "deactivated" position and does NOT move when a key is pressed [as a Am I correct that when you press the 'Here Is' key, the distributor does turn? If so, then the clutch can be released (and presumably latches up correctly). > clarication, the "far" ent of the linkage extends through a slot on the > front of the keyboard assembly. On the working unit, qhen no key is pressed, > the end is down, it travels up when the key is pressed and returns down > when the typing unit finishes its cycle. On the new unit this end is always > in the down position]. > > Attempting to move the linkage (but not overly forcing it] is futile. Don't force anything. You will just cause more damage. What I would do next is remove the transmitter shaft. To do this, remove the typing unit from the chassis pan, then take off the distributor brush holder (central screw, but don't let the brushes fly out) and the distributor PCB (3 screws). Then take off the motor (2 screws at each end) and free the drive belt from the sprocket). Take off the bracket over the top (180850 in my partsbook), then the bracket over the bearing (180998). Lift out the shaft complete with the belt (don't forget to slip this on when putting it back!) and the bearings. Youi can now see the trip ling. I'd be inclined to disconnect the 186261 link at one end to see if it's the front end (186264) that connects to the H plate or the rear end (186254 and related parts) that's jammed. Then you can dismantle the appropriate part. > > Visual inspection of the path [at least what I can see without moving the > typing unit out of the chassis bay], does not reveal anything. Are there any > typical binding points? Should I be thinking about a seized clutch? If the link won't move at all, it's not the clutch. The transmitter shaft will clearly turn, or the receive side couldn't do anything (the motor drives a sprocket on the transmit clutch drum which also carries a gear which meshes with one on the receiver shaft). -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 23 18:11:36 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? Message-ID: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> So here I am... doing backups of an 80GB Maxtor drive when it craps out in the _middle_ of the backup. :-( >From my digging around this morning, there appears to be a problem reading the reserved area that results in it being detected by the BIOS as a "Maxtor ROMULUS" (the class of drive). >From further digging, it appears that I won't be able to shake this thing loose without professional help. I got 25GB of data off of it before it died, but since I don't have a directory, I can't even evaluate if it's worth $$$ to get the rest. So... before I proceed, I was curious who on the list has used professional data recovery services, and who does a good job at a good price. I've already written to a company in N.Z. that has a base rate of under $300 NZ + recovery media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) I've seen companies ask 400 Eur. and up to $700 US. Obviously, I'm not in a hurry now... it's still about 2 months to the first plane. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Aug-2004 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.7 F (-65.4 C) Windchill -127.3 F (-88.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.6 kts Grid 036 Barometer 676.1 mb (10772. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 23 18:33:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Am I correct that when you press the 'Here Is' key, the >>> distributor does turn? If so, then the clutch can be >>> released (and presumably latches up correctly). >>> Spins like a charm..... >>> > Attempting to move the linkage (but not overly forcing >>> it] is futile. >>> >>> Don't force anything. You will just cause more damage. >>> I always thought a sledge hammer was a good tool...Seriously I am actually applying very little force. >>> What I would do next is remove the transmitter shaft. To do >>> this, remove the typing unit from the chassis pan.... That of course will involve replacing the h-plate later...Oh well... It only took me about two weeks to get the other one [on the other unit] in.... >>> then take off the distributor brush holder (central screw, but >>> don't let the brushes fly out) Ive done this before! >>> and the distributor PCB (3 screws). >>> >>> Then take off the motor (2 screws at each end) and free the >>> drive belt from the sprocket). Take off the bracket over >>> the top (180850 in my partsbook), then the bracket over the >>> bearing (180998). Lift out the shaft complete with the belt >>> (don't forget to slip this on when putting it back!) and >>> the bearings. >>> >>> Youi can now see the trip ling. I'd be inclined to >>> disconnect the 186261 link at one end to see if it's the >>> front end (186264) that connects to the H plate or the rear >>> end (186254 and related parts) that's jammed. >>> Then you can dismantle the appropriate part. >>> I will do that in the morning.... >>> >>> If the link won't move at all, it's not the clutch. The >>> transmitter shaft will clearly turn, or the receive side >>> couldn't do anything (the motor drives a sprocket on the >>> transmit clutch drum which also carries a gear which meshes >>> with one on the receiver shaft). Thanks again for the suggestions....Looks like it is going to turn out to NOT be a major/fatal problem, just tedious and subtle.... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 23 18:36:25 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: >>> >>> So... before I proceed, I was curious who on the list has >>> used professional data recovery services, and who does a >>> good job at a good price. I've already written to a >>> company in N.Z. that has a base rate of under $300 NZ + >>> recovery media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) I've seen >>> companies ask 400 Eur. and up to $700 US. As pert of my "real" work. I have to recover clients drives regularly. I have used DriveSavers soo many times that I finally became an authorized service provider. Not the cheapest [although free if they cant get the data], but I have had only one drive that they could not read [the platter was complete toast!]. Contact me off list if you want me to get a price quote. David david@dynamicconcepts.us From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 18:26:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 23, 4 07:33:41 pm Message-ID: > > >>> Am I correct that when you press the 'Here Is' key, the > >>> distributor does turn? If so, then the clutch can be > >>> released (and presumably latches up correctly). > >>> > > Spins like a charm..... OK, the clutch is fine. so is some of the linkage. > >>> What I would do next is remove the transmitter shaft. To do > >>> this, remove the typing unit from the chassis pan.... > > That of course will involve replacing the h-plate later...Oh well... Yes, but you should have removed that anyway (it's not that hard with a bit of practice). With the H-plate out, you can test the keyboard (does the link that the H-plate slots into turn when you press a key -- you have to reset it manually), and also verify that it's the typing unit that's jammed. You have checked that the typing unit is correctly seated on the rubber vibration isolaters, I hope. If it's misplaced it can jam the H-plate! > It only took me about two weeks to get the other one [on the other unit] > in.... You do realies the slot in the middle is to insert a flat-blade screwdriver. You can then use that to postiion it once it's slotted into the typing unit. With a bit of practice it goes in in a few seconds. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 23 18:42:24 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... Message-ID: <200408232342.QAA08821@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David V. Corbin" ---snip--- > >That of course will involve replacing the h-plate later...Oh well... >It only took me about two weeks to get the other one [on the other unit] >in.... > Hi David Once you've fine the right size of flat bladed screwdriver to jam into the slot of the H-plate, you'll see that it is actually quite easy. One should be able to do is in just a few seconds. You do need to manually reset both sides to be in the same state so the angles are the same. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 23 18:57:40 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: <200408232342.QAA08821@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> Hi David >>> Once you've fine the right size of flat bladed screwdriver >>> to jam into the slot of the H-plate, you'll see that it is >>> actually quite easy. One SHOULD be able to do is in just a >>> few seconds. You do need to manually reset both sides to be >>> in the same state so the angles are the same. >>> Dwight >>> I know, I know........ Physical Dexterity is not my strong suit....... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 23 18:59:18 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: ASR-33's and Brain Dead "Repair" man... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> You do realize the slot in the middle is to insert a >>> flat-blade screwdriver. You can then use that to postiion >>> it once it's slotted into the typing unit. With a bit of >>> practice it goes in in a few seconds. >>> Yes I realize thate, what has driven me crazy is getting the angular alignment of the two ends set so they are co-planar with respect to the h-plate.... From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 23 19:26:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So... before I proceed, I was curious who on the list has used > professional data recovery services, and who does a good job at a good > price. I've already written to a company in N.Z. that has a base rate of > under $300 NZ + recovery media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) I've seen > companies ask 400 Eur. and up to $700 US. If you can get 80GB of data recovered for NZ$300 + media then you are stoked. I'd send hard drives from here in the US for that price. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 23 20:01:44 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: References: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040824010144.GA4897@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 05:26:21PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > So... before I proceed, I was curious who on the list has used > > professional data recovery services, and who does a good job at a good > > price. I've already written to a company in N.Z. that has a base rate of > > under $300 NZ + recovery media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) > > If you can get 80GB of data recovered for NZ$300 + media then you are > stoked. I'd send hard drives from here in the US for that price. Oops... misquoted price... $360 NZ + media... still... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 01:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86 F (-65.5 C) Windchill -131.7 F (-90.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 042 Barometer 675.5 mb (10796. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 23 20:16:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <20040824010144.GA4897@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If you can get 80GB of data recovered for NZ$300 + media then you are > > stoked. I'd send hard drives from here in the US for that price. > > Oops... misquoted price... $360 NZ + media... still... Yep, still. Also, I meant I'd send drives from here in the US to NZ for that price. That's an absolute bargain. BUT: what's their track record? Have they got references? I've used a place local to me called Data Recovery Group (they also have a locations in Canada, Illinois, Michigan and North Carolina. I've had a good success rate with them but they are not cheap (they average $1000 per HD). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 23 20:30:00 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: References: <20040824010144.GA4897@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040824013000.GA5399@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 06:16:46PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > If you can get 80GB of data recovered for NZ$300 + media then you are > > > stoked. I'd send hard drives from here in the US for that price. > > > > Oops... misquoted price... $360 NZ + media... still... > > Yep, still. Also, I meant I'd send drives from here in the US to NZ for > that price. That's an absolute bargain. > > BUT: what's their track record? Have they got references? Dunno... I've sent them an e-mail. We'll see if they respond. I think part of the low price is that this is an ordinary problem with Maxtors that does not involve platter scraping to recover from. It's a corruption at some level (scrambled data and/or dodgy sectors) of the reserved area that includes block translation, etc. For a drive with an arbitrary problem, I can easily see the costs mounting. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 01:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86 F (-65.5 C) Windchill -127.7 F (-88.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.7 kts Grid 042 Barometer 675.6 mb (10792. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 23 20:41:39 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: cool terminal manuals Message-ID: <003601c4897b$8039c970$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Don't think I posted this stuff to the list before, if I have, my apologies. But when you have CRS syndrome.... For some of the ones listed below, I have like 30 copies (all originals) of the manuals. For others I only have one original copy. Some of these are off-the-beaten-path manuals and quite cool. Micro-Term Mime I & II Micro-Term 420 Micro-Term 5A Micro-Term Ergo 2000 Micro-Term ACT IV Micro-Term Mime 340 Micro-Term 2A (which does Soroc IQ120 emulation - cool, and I have the terminal :) Mini Bee IV Some of the manuals above are operating guides, some are programming guides, some are service/technical manuals. I actually have a Micro-Term ACT 5, very cute terminal.... and a 2A. I would VERY much like to find a Mime I, and maybe a Mime II. Anyways - thought I'd list the manuals in case someone is desperately looking for any of them. Regards, Jay West From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Aug 23 20:47:29 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> Message-ID: <003201c4897c$519a8e50$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> oh nooo!!!! it is one of the black ones!!! did it say Honeywell on it? aghghghg yaayeyyyyaaaaeeee ( a renting of clothing in the biblical style) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 1:24 PM Subject: My GE Terminet 300 > http:/wps.com/temp/Terminet-300.jpg > > Not for the squeamish. Four photos, arranged like so: > > > > 1 2 > > > 3 4 > > > Keep in mind this was 1984, the damn thing weighed about 80 lbs, and was > maximally flaking out with a few pickets broken off the print fence. > Excuses, excuses... > > Tim Pozar was the photographer. > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Aug 23 20:49:01 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> <001d01c48952$96539480$6c881442@computer> Message-ID: <003a01c4897c$8a5e1c70$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> this is one of the earlier terminet 300 too! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 1:48 PM Subject: Re: My GE Terminet 300 > > > From: Tom Jennings > > > http:/wps.com/temp/Terminet-300.jpg > > > > Not for the squeamish. Four photos, arranged like so: > > > > > > heh. after moving mine a few times... empathy. > > here's mine: > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/ge30001.jpg > > I also still have it's service manual somewhere for after gravity's angel > kiss here though. > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Aug 23 20:58:46 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: HP 2100 book sought ($BOUNTY$) References: <016b01c48927$21294860$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <009601c4897d$e48efd30$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> if you do not turn one up let me know.... somewhere in one of the warehouses probably have an extra of that and also the one on the 2116 it is large too... think it is for the 2116 2115 and 2114 Jay also wondering do you have any extra 2100's when you convert the access over to 21 mx processors? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 8:37 AM Subject: HP 2100 book sought ($BOUNTY$) > I'm looking for an original copy (not pdf or other electronic format) of the > "HP Pocket Reference Guide to the 2100 Computer". Unlike the title suggests, > it's hardly pocket-sized. It's about 450 pages, with roughly 5x8 pages. > > I'm willing to pay non-trivial sums of cash, or provide lopsided trades, for > said book. > > Regards, > > Jay West > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 23 21:56:50 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: paper tape reader/punch (N4000) info Message-ID: <002201c48986$00da3560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just got a Facit N4000 unit. Looking for DOS based PC software to read & store images, etc. Can anyone point me to any freeware/shareware that they find works well with such units? Regards, Jay West From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 24 01:39:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040820122344.00a8fec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040820122344.00a8fec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <1093329582.3842.4.camel@fiche> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 12:52, Mike Ford wrote: > AFAIK spreadsheets are a fairly old engineering practice, originally done > manually on paper and slowly ported to automation and computers. What about > the old accounting machines, they are sort of spreadsheets. Tabular data on paper is probably almost as old as paper. Certainly 17th century. Mathematical/navigational/astrological (aka astronomical) tables, for example. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 04:57:27 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093341446.12891.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 22:46, Tony Duell wrote: > I've just checked the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (this is a 2-volume > English dictionary, mine is somewhat old). It doesn't contain Computor or > Weldor at all. A 'Welder' is one who welds, a Computer is a person who > calculates. I always thought it came about with the arrival of the comptometer - a computer being the person who operates the device. I've never come across computor before, but as Tony says maybe it was different on the other side of the pond... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 05:04:03 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1093341843.12891.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 23:11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So here I am... doing backups of an 80GB Maxtor drive when it craps out in > the _middle_ of the backup. :-( > > >From my digging around this morning, there appears to be a problem reading > the reserved area that results in it being detected by the BIOS as a "Maxtor > ROMULUS" (the class of drive). For giggles you could try the old tricks of either warming the drive up first then trying to access it, or it that doesn't work, then keeping it cold (a pan of icy water sat on top of the drive works well, assuming you don't spill any). I've brought drives back before now with electronic faults using both approaches so that they'll run long enough to get the data off. Not going to help if it's corruption of the physical data on the platters, of course, but maybe worth a try. Unless the drive's suffered a head crash I can't imagine you'd make anything worse by trying. > data recovery services, and who does a good job at a good price. I've already > written to a company in N.Z. that has a base rate of under $300 NZ + recovery > media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) That does sound good; typically prices are about twice that over here - not sure about the US. cheers Jules From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Aug 24 07:13:53 2004 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B.Degnan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: TRS 80 Model III mini drive problemTRS 80 Model III mini drive problem Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040824081210.02aafe98@mail.degnanco.net> This problem has been fixed, thanks for suggestion from Tony of the UK. -Bill >Do you mean you get thje CASS? prompt when you turn the machine on >without holding BREAK down? >If so, then the machine is not detecting the disk controller (that's why >it's not trying to read the disk). I'd check the tapewire that links the >CPU board to the disk controller board (I've had a lot of problems with >this cable!), then check the signals round the WD1793 chip. >-tony > > Looking for diagnosis or URL with troubleshooting guide: > TRS 80 Model III with two mini drives. > Powers up, drives spin and do not stop. > Does not attempt read, no red drive light. > Cass? and Memory Size? Ok From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Aug 24 08:03:16 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Puget Sound area collectors, heads-up! Message-ID: <200408240603160525.13DA2164@192.168.42.129> Spotted yesterday at RE-PC Tukwila: A nice DEC MicroPDP-11/23 in a four-foot rack, along with two tape drives of a type I've never seen before (definitely DEC'ish, they look like they take a smallish cartridge). Also had what looked like a third-party 16-port serial MUX installed, probably an Emulex or similar board. No price on the thing, but probably available for cheap. RE-PC is at 510 Andover Park West, at the opposite end of the complex from the UPS customer counter. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 24 08:17:09 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 In-Reply-To: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> Message-ID: <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> Tom Jennings wrote: > http:/wps.com/temp/Terminet-300.jpg > > Not for the squeamish. Four photos, arranged like so: Eek! I bet that made quite a bang. I've just picked up a Liberty Electronics BT1430A0 CRT terminal. RS232 interface (two ports), 12" CRT with amber phosphor, three keyboards (one working, two for spares) and very minor screen burn. From what I can see in the ROM dumps, there's a self-test screen and there appears to be a full-screen Setup option, in addition to the setup option that only uses row 25 (%DEITY knows how to access it though). Took a while to find the Magic Incantation (tm) to make it store the current setup - you press F3 to enter setup, navigate with the cursor keys, SPACE changes the value of the currently selected option, then Ctrl-F3 saves the settings and F3 closes the Setup tool. FWICT, the actual "model name" for the '1430 was "Freedom ONE Plus" (found that in the ROM dump). Does anyone want to stick the ROMs on their site for the sake of archiving them? Now if only I could find a way to reduce the amount of 50Hz EMI the terminal spews out. My Mitsubishi CRT monitor's picture gains a rolling black bar whenever the terminal is switched on - even though it's a good 6" away. Set the refresh rate to 75Hz (from 60Hz) and the picture starts shimmering. Anyone got some spare mumetal? :) Now if only I could find out why this pesky Win2k box won't display the logon window, my life would be complete. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Aug 24 09:05:14 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <20040824010144.GA4897@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 05:26:21PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > So... before I proceed, I was curious who on the list has used > > > professional data recovery services, and who does a good job at a good > > > price. I've already written to a company in N.Z. that has a base rate of > > > under $300 NZ + recovery media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) > > If you can get 80GB of data recovered for NZ$300 + media then you are > > stoked. I'd send hard drives from here in the US for that price. > Oops... misquoted price... $360 NZ + media... still... > -ethan Which chaps are you using in the Motherland? There was a guy (A single person outfit) in Palmerston North who fixed my bosses harddisk back in 2000. My boss always had it hanging out the side of his case, and one morning he trips coming into the office (If you imagine Ozzy Osbourne without the blue glasses and somehow with an impression that he understands the IT sector, that'd be my manager) and in righting himself on the desk, pushes the harddisk up against the case. Logic board kisses the PC case, whizz bang sparks, blue smoke and all the odours that make your stomach churn when you smell them. We ended up sending one of our Helpdesk dudes up there with it (A Boy Racer, specifically picked, who did 130kmh the entire way). The chap up there (Sorry, don't remember the name, but perhaps location will help) had a spare harddisk of the same type, and just swapped the controller boards to get the data off. I think we paid something under $300NZ, actually. But that was four years ago now (Man, that makes me feel old). You might try him too; JP From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 24 09:11:18 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: RSX11M Boot disk Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040824093807.0335e410@192.168.0.1> Need some help making a disk bootable under RSX11M V4.6 (not Plus). Need to copy a bootable system volume to another. Usually I use standalone BRU with no problem. Problem (I think) is that I have 2 MSCP controllers, one drive on one controller, other drive on the other controller and their low level formats aren't compatible so can't swap drives around. Unfortunately I have no working tape drive at the moment either. (I do have 5 TK50's with tapes hanging out their mouths though). Dragged out a Cipher 550 cartridge tape drive, plugged in MSV05 controller (MS:), bought some new DC600A tapes after the ones I had in the attic for 10 years didn't work, but it didn't work either. Disk and controller configuration is: An Emulex QD01 controller CSR=172150 Vec=154 (Standard MSCP address) with an RD54 as DU1: This is the system disk and it hardware boots fine into M. And a RQDX3 CSR=172154 Vec=150 (Secondary) with an RD32 that shows up as DU4: under M. I can BAD it, INI it, MOU it etc. -- drive works fine. Using standalone BRU to copy DU1: to DU4: it gives error -65 (device offline - it can't see it) for DU4: Ok, I use CNF to change DU4: to alternate CSR, it give me error -65 on DU1: Apparantly CNF changes DU CSR for both drives. (I did find I could make standalone BRU bootable RX33's though which I did as they boot much faster than TK50.) So, standalone BRU not working as I wanted, I made the RD32 DU4: drive a Files11 volume (BAD, INI etc.) Created all the UFD's from DU1: (system disk) on DU4: (target). (Still haven't found anything better than TECO for making command files from directory listings, have a PC version of TECO I use today) I then copied all the files to the target disk: BRU/NOI/MOU DU1: DU4: Worked fine. I can mount DU4: and look at all the files fine. But, how do I make DU4: bootable as DU0: on an RQDX3 at standard address of 172150?? VMR and SAV only seem to work on the current SYSTEM disk, not a target. For example, tried to VMR DU4:[1,54]RSX11M.SYS --- no joy. When I try to boot the DU4: on another system, it give me what INI wrote in the boot block: "THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM" Any suggestions on how to make DU4: bootable? Best I could find Googling was: http://www.miim.com/faq/hardware/diskfaq.html#mscrscpy But I don't see how that effects a drive other than SY: Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ed Kelleher From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 24 09:39:34 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone happen to know of a trick to remove (or lessen the effect of) the yellowing that tends to happen to lighter-coloured plastics? I've got a few monitors here that are pretty bad - the yellowing I can put up with, but the difference between the non-yellowed areas and the yellowed areas shows up like a sore thumb. Is this just one of those things that happens to plastics that's best ignored? Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Remington, shaves as close as a blade or we send the boys round. From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 24 09:53:36 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040824105041.03369ba0@192.168.0.1> At 10:39 AM 8/24/2004, you wrote: > Does anyone happen to know of a trick to remove (or lessen the effect of) >the yellowing that tends to happen to lighter-coloured plastics? I've got a >few monitors here that are pretty bad - the yellowing I can put up with, but >the difference between the non-yellowed areas and the yellowed areas shows up >like a sore thumb. A Scotch Brite (green fiber abrasive type) pad and glass cleaner (Windex) works for me. > Is this just one of those things that happens to plastics that's best >ignored? Yes, if it's some heirloom collectable type thing. Ed From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 10:22:33 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093360952.13088.49.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 14:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone happen to know of a trick to remove (or lessen the effect of) > the yellowing that tends to happen to lighter-coloured plastics? Copious amounts of Jif (or whatever the hell it's called this week) has worked well for me in the past. Some sort of scouring sponge (rather than a simple cloth) is probably best as case plastics tend to be somewhat uneven. The other approach is of course to find an identical bit of hardware with a better shell; I've done that before with some more common Acorn items that I have, before passing the surplus machine that results on to a good home. cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 24 10:36:06 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <1093341446.12891.3.camel@weka.localdomain> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824112424.03c33d80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 22:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've just checked the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (this is a 2-volume > > English dictionary, mine is somewhat old). It doesn't contain Computor or > > Weldor at all. A 'Welder' is one who welds, a Computer is a person who > > calculates. > >I always thought it came about with the arrival of the comptometer - a >computer being the person who operates the device. I've never come >across computor before, but as Tony says maybe it was different on the >other side of the pond... Well, at www.miriamwebster.com, I typed in weldor and got: One entry found for welder. Main Entry: weld?er Pronunciation: 'wel-d&r Function: noun : one that welds : as a or wel?dor : one whose work is welding b : a machine used in welding =-=-=-=-=-=-= When I searched for "computor" it didn't actually register anything, but gave me a list of possible alternates, which included: cor?rupt?er also cor?rup?tor /-'r&p-t&r/ noun [[ altho in the list, it was corruptor, not corrupter, that was listed ]] =-=-=-=-=-=-= But, alas, no Computor, from what I saw at that one website. I do know that I've seen it in the distant past (i.e. high school, 20 years ago), but if computers came in about the same time that the -or version of spelling was on it's way out, I can see why it didn't gain "universal acceptance." ;-) They want $30USD annually to use MiriamWebsterUnabridged.com, so I didn't check there... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 11:29:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:26 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 In-Reply-To: <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've just picked up a Liberty Electronics BT1430A0 CRT terminal. RS232 > interface (two ports), 12" CRT with amber phosphor, three keyboards (one > working, two for spares) and very minor screen burn. From what I can see in > the ROM dumps, there's a self-test screen and there appears to be a > full-screen Setup option, in addition to the setup option that only uses row > 25 (%DEITY knows how to access it though). Took a while to find the Magic > Incantation (tm) to make it store the current setup - you press F3 to enter > setup, navigate with the cursor keys, SPACE changes the value of the > currently selected option, then Ctrl-F3 saves the settings and F3 closes the > Setup tool. FWICT, the actual "model name" for the '1430 was "Freedom ONE > Plus" (found that in the ROM dump). Does anyone want to stick the ROMs on > their site for the sake of archiving them? Philip, I believe I *might* have one of these terminals new in the box. I'll check later today and if so I'll extract the manual and get it to Al for scanning. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 11:34:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824112424.03c33d80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > But, alas, no Computor, from what I saw at that one website. I do know that > I've seen it in the distant past (i.e. high school, 20 years ago), but if > computers came in about the same time that the -or version of spelling was > on it's way out, I can see why it didn't gain "universal acceptance." ;-) I've seen it spelt that way also, though it was years ago (probably the same time we were both in high school/junior high :) I even used to spell it that way myself occasionally, being confused as to which was the more proper spelling. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 11:32:40 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <1093360952.13088.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 14:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone happen to know of a trick to remove (or lessen the effect of) > > the yellowing that tends to happen to lighter-coloured plastics? > > Copious amounts of Jif (or whatever the hell it's called this week) has > worked well for me in the past. Some sort of scouring sponge (rather > than a simple cloth) is probably best as case plastics tend to be > somewhat uneven. Be careful, because what you'll actually be doing is removing the texture of the plastic, which may well make it look as ugly or uglier than before. Most plastic computer enclosures have some sort of texture. I guess it's an asthetic thing, since most prototypes I've got have smooth plastic enclosures. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bob at jfcl.com Tue Aug 24 11:23:55 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Anybody have an extra power supply for a PDP-11/04?? Message-ID: <04082409235499@jfcl.com> I was given a PDP-11/04 recently, in the short 5 1/4" chassis, but it is missing its power supply. Looks like it was removed to use as a replacement for another 11/04. Does anybody have one they don't need? Anybody even know what kind of power supply goes in a 11/04 in the short chassis?? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 11:27:36 2004 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040824162736.2213.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Pemberton wrote: Is this just one of those things that happens to > plastics that's best > ignored? > Yes, and remember, ugly finishes turn magically into "patina" at some point in time, at least according to the Antique Road Show folks. Then rich people, for some reason, are unable to restrain themselves from paying huge prices for it.(these are the same rich people who return brand new furniture because a quarter square inch of the finish is slightly blemished, go figure) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 11:16:35 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824112424.03c33d80@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824112424.03c33d80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1093364194.13088.89.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 15:36, Roger Merchberger wrote: > But, alas, no Computor, from what I saw at that one website. I do know that > I've seen it in the distant past (i.e. high school, 20 years ago), but if > computers came in about the same time that the -or version of spelling was > on it's way out, I can see why it didn't gain "universal acceptance." ;-) :-) I just checked in the dictionary I have here from 1959, which is too early to have computer in the modern sense in it - but it does contain computer in the sense of "one employed to make calculations in an observatory etc." First recorded use of 'compute' is in 1631, incidentally. No mention of 'computor', though. cheers J. From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Tue Aug 24 12:12:37 2004 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Interesting 486 motherboard that accepts an I860 In-Reply-To: <412802B4.2090406@execpc.com> References: <20040822015637.72683.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> <412802B4.2090406@execpc.com> Message-ID: <20040824171237.GC15333@jdboyd.zill.net> On Sat, Aug 21, 2004 at 09:19:32PM -0500, Tom Hudson wrote: > You know, I was at Intel's press conference where they rolled out the > I860, and I couldn't wait to rewrite come of my graphics code for it. I > remember thinking how it was going to revolutionize the computer > graphics industry. Then it kind of dropped off the map. Shows what I know. I don't know what a revolution requires, but the use of those chips in the SGI RE and RE2 boardsets certainly has left a large impact on many of us. I loved the Onyx RE2 I spent many hours on. The newer less than 10y.o. SGI stuff I currently use is also nice (and probably faster for many things), but it just isn't the same. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 24 12:42:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have had little luck in "really" cleaning up a yellowed plastic item. Most of the good suggestions and warnings have been posted. If I really want the item to look nice but am not concerned with authenticity, I have found that the new "molecular bonding" paints do a nice job (once you have practiced with applying them to textured material). [Off the record...And I WILL deny this...My Mother-In-Law is really into the "arts and crafts", her painting skills far exceed mine, so I "let" her do this, and the results are almost always quite good!] From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Aug 24 12:40:31 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I've seen it spelt that way also, though it was years ago (probably the > same time we were both in high school/junior high :) I even used to spell > it that way myself occasionally, being confused as to which was the more > proper spelling. If you had the proper spell-check carthridge in your 'puter, you'd know these things... ^^^^^^^^^^ Cheerz Miss Bundt From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 24 13:01:31 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412B827B.9040906@srv.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: >Hi, > Does anyone happen to know of a trick to remove (or lessen the effect of) >the yellowing that tends to happen to lighter-coloured plastics? I've got a >few monitors here that are pretty bad - the yellowing I can put up with, but >the difference between the non-yellowed areas and the yellowed areas shows up >like a sore thumb. > > I normally just use 409 and paper towels. Takes several applications: spray, let it soak for a while, wipe off, repeat. Remove the case if possible, to keep from spraying the inner mechanism, and to make it easier to get into the joins. Doesn't completely eliminate it, but greatly reduces it. > Is this just one of those things that happens to plastics that's best >ignored? > > Normal aging, but it is MUCH worse in a smoking envoirnment. >Thanks. > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 24 12:52:55 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <20040824162736.2213.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005d01c48a03$2fc437e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 12:27 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > --- Philip Pemberton wrote: > Is this just one of those things that happens to > > plastics that's best > > ignored? > > > > Yes, and remember, ugly finishes turn magically into > "patina" at some point in time, at least according to > the Antique Road Show folks. Then rich people, for > some reason, are unable to restrain themselves from > paying huge prices for it.(these are the same rich > people who return brand new furniture because a > quarter square inch of the finish is slightly > blemished, go figure) > The problem is new furniture has to look 100% new, while something 200+ years old has to look vintage (some signs of normal ageing). While some rich person would love to have a piece of furniture that Napoleon might have scuffed with his boot (a good story helps) they don't want a new table they spent tons of money on to get dinged by the movers (no interesting story there). When car restoration started getting popular some company came out with paint that cracks when it dries so that old rusted heaps could be refurbished and still have the cracked paint the rest of the machines of that vintage had. If I pay $300,000 for a new Ferrari (yea I wish I had that kind of cash) it better not have a chip anywhere or its going back. "Patina" I think is a term also used for older coins, the oxide that forms on a silver or copper coin actually preserves it from further damage, cleaning it would destroy detail and it will oxidize again anyway. From depfoto at earthlink.net Mon Aug 16 17:03:59 2004 From: depfoto at earthlink.net (D. E. Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Heathkit EPROM programmer 8401 Message-ID: <41212F4F.1070907@earthlink.net> To whom it may concern, I was searching google.com for information relating to my old Heathkit 8401 and stumbled upon your message from almost a year ago. Do you still need to contact someone that owns this device? If so, feel free to drop me a return e-mail. From T.Baillie at mcauley.acu.edu.au Mon Aug 16 18:59:07 2004 From: T.Baillie at mcauley.acu.edu.au (Tim Baillie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Brother Wordprocessor Floppy Disks Message-ID: Hi I saw in a forum your discusion about reading Brother wordprocessor floppy disks and am in the same situation, could you forward the tool spoen about on the forum please? does the software only convert the file, or does it allow you to read the disk on a pc? thanks Tim Don Maslin donm at cts.com Wed Mar 3 16:05:07 CST 2004 Previous message: Brother Wordprocessor Floppy Disks Next message: Brother Wordprocessor Floppy Disks Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, tim lindner wrote: > Yesterday my boss came to me and handed me a stack of 3 1/2 inch floppy > disks and asked me to get the data off them. > > Ahh, the perils of being the geekiest person in your orginazation! :) > > Anyway, all he could tell me is that they were from a Brother word > processor. It didn't have a model number and no serial port. > > One of the disks is a system disk ("Spreadsheet, punctualtion alert and > data storage disk for Brother Word Processor version <1.0>") and is > dated 1991. > > I tried the disk in my DOS 6.22 PC, no deal. > > Then I tried cw2dmk (thanks Tim!) and my Catweasel, but I guess the > format isn't close enough to IBM 370 (FM) or IBM 34 (MFM) formats to be > useful. > > Does anyone know of a tool I can use to read these disks? Tim, the attached ZIP contains software that was sent to me a while back which is supposed to convert Brother Word Processor stuff to other - perhaps, more common - WP formats. I have not had occasion to try it, so will be interested in your experience. It will not make it to the list, of course, thanks to the attachment 'scraper'. - don > Barring that: does anybody know what format the disk is using? I'm not > past modifying cw2dmk to read it, but I would hope not to have to > reverse engineer the "on disk" format. > > Thanks! > > -- > tim lindner > tlindner at ix.netcom.com > Timothy Baillie ACUweb Online Education, ACU National T +61 7 3623 7425 F +61 7 3623 7193 PO Box 456 Virginia Qld 4014, Australia http://www.acuweb.com.au/ From DGoldgrabe at spraycool.com Tue Aug 17 09:15:23 2004 From: DGoldgrabe at spraycool.com (Daniel L. Goldgrabe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Hawley Mouse? Message-ID: <9F347458EDACB64B8FF57DB67E6E0FAA995D16@cerebrum.spraycool.com> Sir, earlier this year you posted a question as to whether anyone had a non-dec Hawley mouse for sale. I have an X063X, is that what you are looking for or are you after something else? Daniel Goldgrabe Component Engineer Isothermal Systems Research 2218 N. Molter Rd Liberty Lake, WA 99019 PH: (509) 232-3442 Fax: (509) 444-1082 email: dgoldgrabe@spraycool.com From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 17 12:37:29 2004 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: RE: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040817113055.03277090@192.168.0.1> <4122583A.27853.29A982F8@localhost> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040817183442.01c92ec0@slave> At 18:10 17/08/2004, you wrote: >Am 17 Aug 2004 13:06 meinte David V. Corbin: > > >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher > > >>> At 11:23 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: Help with question about web page access > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> At 10:49 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote: > > >>> > >>> >WHY DOES SOMEBODY HAS TO SLAP A TINY TINY UNREADABLE FONT > > >>> > >>> IN MY FACE? > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> It takes less bandwidth and server space. > > >>> > >>> > > >>> >Um...NO...not at all.... > > > >>> Well certainly then because of reduced X radiation from the CRT. > > >>> The smaller fonts disturb less phosphor. > > >>> You'd probably get increased life from your CRT also in that case. > > > Well...It could be, but is the person uses a dark font on a light > background > > [IMHO as it should be], then the increased area of backgound actually > > increases radiation! > >Are you shure? I mean, if a light backgroung emmits >more radiation, then we should switch for black paper >as sonn as possible. Absolutely! As we know, black holes abosrb everything[0] -including light-, so clearly they are less dangerous than the Sun, which emits lots of light. On a similar line, it is obvious that black paper will absorb more radiation. Ideally, we should also switch all of our ink to black ink too, in order to further reduce the danger of accidental irradiation through the irresponsible use of bright colours. It'd make writing these documents that I'm doing a damn sight easier too... ;) [0] Excluding X-rays & other dangerous radiation, naturally. Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.com From spm1960 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 15:52:28 2004 From: spm1960 at yahoo.com (steven mcclenathan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Monroe-Matic CSA-10 Message-ID: <20040817205228.59515.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Chuck what would one of these things be worth. If it was in great operating condition? Where would a guy find out. MonroeMatic help __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rdy4immediate at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 17 21:24:16 2004 From: rdy4immediate at sympatico.ca (Mark Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: atc-510 simulator Message-ID: <000d01c484ca$75ab0920$455dfea9@HomeSweetHome> I have picked up one of these ATC 510 also ... I have full set of docs for it, all maintenance books and tapes ... I don't recall seeing any charts for it .. but I have not got into all the boxes ... I would love to talk sims or real aviation some time . More than glad to share what I have ,I got this sim given to me from a school that wanted rid of it ... they say it does not work ... if fly's wrong .. but I am pretty sure that I can get it going ... I love to fart around with stuff like that, jeeps me out of trouble. Anyway drop me line if you like Mark Jones MSN messenger - clubwood@hotmail.com From nbreeden2 at comcast.net Tue Aug 17 23:48:13 2004 From: nbreeden2 at comcast.net (Neil Breeden) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III and Holmes VID-80 Schematics / Technical Reference Message-ID: <200408180505.i7I55AbY053468@huey.classiccmp.org> Hi, I'm looking for a Technical Reference manual / schematics for a TRS-80 Model III and the Holmes VID-80 add-on board. I've found a fair amount on the model I and 4 via Google however there seems to be nothing on the Model III. -Neil From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 18 14:48:30 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (+ACI-McFadden, Mike+ACI-) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software Message-ID: Bob asks about row/column based database software. +ADw-snip+AD4- Lots of mainframe database software existed but it was expensive and took lots of CPU power and disk space. From my experience it all depended if you purchased software or wrote your own. At the University of Missouri in 1976 we made a database of food poisoning victims. I used one punch card for each patient which was one row. Each column on the card was for each symptom or food consumed. Columns 1-16 was usually last name Column 17 might be Saturday morning vomiting Column 18 might be Saturday afternoon vomiting Column 19 might be Saturday evening vomiting Column 20 might be Saturday morning diarrhea Column 21 might be Saturday afternoon diarrhea Column 22 might be Saturday evening diarrhea Column 23 might be Saturday morning beer Column 24 might be Saturday afternoon beer Column 25 might be Saturday evening beer We would usually look at a 3 day interval. It usually takes 18 hours for food poisoning symptoms to start. Some people are +ACI-immune/tough+ACI- and don't get sick. Some people have symptoms from other sources+ADs- beer, other foods If you listed a data deck of cards then row columns were how the data was listed. We looked to trends and correlations. On one outbreak the highest correlation was the potato chips but the chicken salad was the actual cause. We used to get a lot of false positives for vomiting due to the amount of beer consumed by students. We also used SPSS on IBM 370/168 to analyze data also printed 2 X 2 tables of cross-correlations. The data was punched on an IBM 026 card punch, later we got a 029. We moved the analysis into FORTRAN programs on PDP-11/20 using DOS. Later in 1979 I used BMDP and Datatrieve on a PDP-11/35 to computer percentages of bacteria that consumed certain sugars. The table looked like S L M C U A A A C C N S R T I I O O T N S S O E E E L e.coli 75 5 5 10 s.aureus 5 1 1 95 P.aeruginose 10 50 50 1 The PDP-11/35 was later upgraded to a PDP-11/70. BMDP required overlays and lots of common areas to fit in the limited memory we had. We had 320K words of memory for 6 users, the RSX-11M OS and all external device pages. All of our data was on RK05's. The system was on one RK05, the programs on another, one for scratch and another for data. We changed the data packs a lot to load more data. Our first RP04 was setup by us to look like lots of RK05's since we stored data and analyzed in those increments. For the clinical machines the data was stored in a PROM board on a PDP-11/04 that analyzed bacterial growth and identified the bacteria. If I remember correctly the table was about 30 rows by 26 columns. Minicomputers were an attempt to move out of the computer center. We weren't really classed as computer programmers but R+ACY-D engineers. We stored lots of data in RAD50 and bit flags to save space. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 19 12:29:24 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers In-Reply-To: <00b701c485e8$abdc39a0$0a00a8c0@coffee> References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> <00b701c485e8$abdc39a0$0a00a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: <12730.82.152.112.73.1092936564.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Does anybody in the UK have an Infoserver that they could lend to me so > that > I can get VMS onto a few machines around here? Are they all SCSI? If so why not just install it on one of 'em then make multiple copies of the resulting disk...... > Failing that, has anybody taken an image of the ROMs in an IS100/150 - i'd > quite like to try making a uVAX3100 think it's an Infoserver... I bet Fred has.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 19 12:31:54 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers In-Reply-To: <0408191719.AA05510@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0408191719.AA05510@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <12735.82.152.112.73.1092936714.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > To my knowledge there are no special ROMs in an InfoServer other than > the standard MV3100 console ROM, and it's what lives on its boot disk > that makes it an InfoServer. Nope, I verified this earlier in the year and there's definitely a different ROM in there...... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From squidster at techie.com Thu Aug 19 14:36:54 2004 From: squidster at techie.com (wai-sun chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 vs. PDP 11/03-L Message-ID: <20040819193654.A0F0A790032@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Hello list, Anybody can give an authoritative answer as to the difference between a 11/03 and a 11/03-L? What I can gather is that the 11/03 used a BA11-M/H9270 (4-slots) while the 11/03-L used a BA11-N/H9273 (9-slots). Another important thing is that the DEC logo is different! :-) On the 11/03 the font used is the regular lower-case font, while on the 11/03-L the font used looks like uppercase Avant Garde.. /wai-sun -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 08:42:20 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Hard drive for PERQ on EBAY? In-Reply-To: <41273A66.3080904@pacbell.net> References: <41273A66.3080904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640408210642393b1721@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:04:54 -0700, William Maddox wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5115883008&rd=1 > > This looks like the drive in my old PERQ 1 at CMU. Anyone need one for > their PERQ? > > --Bill > Would be nice, but I guess shipping to the uk would not be cheap, even if it worked when it got here. Dan From meltie at microvax.org Sun Aug 22 11:10:59 2004 From: meltie at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: DEC country codes Message-ID: <000b01c48862$9ef70d60$0a00a8c0@coffee> Does anybody have a link to a document listing DEC's country code suffixes? -AA, -AB, -YA etc cheers! alex/melt From ejchapel at comcast.net Sun Aug 22 13:06:11 2004 From: ejchapel at comcast.net (Ed Chapel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408221701.i7MH05bg094289@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040822110318.0616e0d0@mail.comcast.net> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at Sears for about $10. They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the Mac version works better. From timothy.finegan at cmich.edu Sun Aug 22 19:57:56 2004 From: timothy.finegan at cmich.edu (Timothy Finegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Grid 1755 486SLC (looking to purchase) Message-ID: I am look to purchase a Grid 486SLC model 1755. Would you happen to have one for sale? T. Finegan From kenacms at ngatoro.six.net.au Sun Aug 22 23:43:44 2004 From: kenacms at ngatoro.six.net.au (Ken Kirkby (ACMS)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation In-Reply-To: <200408151054.27935.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 15, 4 10:54:27 am Message-ID: <200408230441.i7N4foT24800@ngatoro.six.net.au> Hi Pat,> > On Wednesday 31 December 1969 19:00, Ken Kirkby wrote: > > > > > response here.> > > > > > > I've got a few "rare" machines, but they mostly seem to come out of > > > some sort of "scientific instrumentation". A vector-based computer > > > that processed NMR data - an Aspect 3000, some machines made by > > > Nicolet and others, etc. > > > > > > Some of my favorite "rarer" machines are my General Automation > > > SPC-16/40 and /45 (which are neither complete nor functional right > > > now ): It was a machine targeted where the Data General Nova was > > > targeted (a general purpose 16bit machine in the early 70s). > > > > Industrial Electronic Resources in Corona CA still supports the GA's > > which are still used in power stations around the world, and in CNC > > applications. We support a few customers still with SPC-16/440's. > > I was wondering why I didn't come across them while trying to find info > using google... and now have discovered that they don't seem to have a > web site. Do you think there's any possibility of getting a (set of) > schematic(s) from them, or at least some sort of service manual > (preferably not a board-swappers guide)? That's the one thing I don't > have that would be useful to get them up and running. Well, that and a > replacement frontpanel for the one that got thrown away, but I'm not > sure I want to spend what they'll want for it... assuming they even > have one. Jon Apel of IER says they operate on the trailing edge of technology. It took them years to get an email address, which I dont have with me but will post tomorrow.. They have most things and replacements having taken over the manufacturing rights from GA for the 16/xxx range in 1986 or so. Ken Kirkby www.plc-peripherals.com - K. J. Kirkby and Associates P/L. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From davidewardjr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 11:03:53 2004 From: davidewardjr at yahoo.com (David Ward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Mac SE 800k boot disks Message-ID: <20040823160353.60000.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> Hello List, Help. I rescued a Mac SE, mouse, and keyboard. My problem is it has the 800k low-density diskette drive and a wiped hard drive. I don’t have a Mac compatible drive needed to create the boot disks. Would anyone have a set of boot disks? Sincerely and thank you in advance, David --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From meltie at microvax.org Mon Aug 23 12:03:29 2004 From: meltie at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Emulex MV11 on eBay Message-ID: <005701c48933$1ec438d0$0a00a8c0@coffee> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5715172371&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT It's guarenteed for 15 days after shipping, $9 postage. I'm currently bidding on it up to $40 but I can't afford it now anyway so i'm letting the list know about it! >___< alex/melt From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 23 16:19:44 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040823151555.052b34f0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Hi folks, Had a mail from someone who has 2 of these 'boxed in new condition'. They're pretty early BASIC calculators so they must be of interest to someone; he'd like to know how much they're worth to collectors - it's the first time someone's mailed me who doesn't want to stick things on ebay! Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Mon Aug 23 20:09:51 2004 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Need Altos Diagnostic disk Message-ID: Help! I've been trying to recreate an 8" floppy from the Altos Diagnostic disk .tdo file recently added to the Commercial CP/M Software Archive site (http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/) so I can try to diagnose a hard drive problem on my ACS8000-10A, and have so far been unsuccessful. I've been using a Shugart 800 8" drive connected to a PC/AT floppy controller with a 34-to-50 pin adapter, and have been wearing myself out with Teledisk, Anadisk and 22Disk for the last few days with no luck. I think I've got the adapter pinned correctly since I'm able to use certain functions OK, but not make that disk. When I try to use Teledisk, it tells me the .tdo source was a 3.5" high-density FM formatted disk (?), and when it tries to write out to the new disk, it comes up unable to find any of the sectors. Has anyone out there been able to do this, or know of another source for the Altos Diagnostic disk that has the hard drive utility? Thanks, Richard Lynch From KParker at workcover.com Tue Aug 24 01:17:35 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Drive alignment Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7A43@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I have a TRS80 Model 12 that's been upgraded to a 16B (with two 8" slim-line floppies). I am trying to copy some discs but not having much joy. One theroy is the media is cactus. The other theory is that following some reading about these machines, because of the size of the drives they tended to get out of alignment regularly. How do I check alignment on the old classics. TIA!!! +++++++++++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 e: webmaster@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com +++++++++++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From asholz at topinform.de Tue Aug 24 05:30:13 2004 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: HP 9133XV disc drive question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412B18B5.2040705@topinform.com> RHahm wrote: I've a configuration based on a HP87 and a HP9133??. The disc has 3 partition of 5Mb each. As I'm remembering, the number of partitions can be changed using dip-switches on the back-panel. This configuration is working properly. Based on that, I'm not able to answer your question completely. Andreas >I recently aquired an HP 9133XV combination 3.5" floppy and 15M HD with an >HPIB interface and Amigo protocol. > >I tried to use the drive with an HP 86B and an HP 85B computer. The floppy >works fine but the computer will not recognize the hard drive. The HD seems >to spin up normally. > >I tried an "INITIALIZE" command without success. > >Can the series 80 computers use this large drive? Does anyone know how to >use the test function on the drive? > >Thanks > > > > From JCalvert at trinityvideo.net Tue Aug 24 08:51:47 2004 From: JCalvert at trinityvideo.net (John Calvert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Steve Loboyko Message-ID: <695DE675089E944881D266D47AD2524E03AD1F@trinity1.corp.trinityvideo.net> This message is for Steve Loboyko, Steve, Please give me a call at your earliest convenience. THANKS! John Calvert 502-240-6100 ext.107 502-718-1224 cell From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 24 09:09:36 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: TRS 80 Model III mini drive problem... In-Reply-To: <200408240626.i7O6Pmbc007741@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200408241409.i7OE9ZJX013343@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "Subject: TRS 80 Model III mini drive problem... To: cctech@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso8859-1 Looking for diagnosis or URL with troubleshooting guide: TRS 80 Model III with two mini drives." ************************************************************* Note the last two sites below, this is a list of online sites with major documentation on classic computers: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/ (the Harte site, EVERYTHING) http://www.bitsavers.org/ (more oriented to mini's and test equipment) http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html (Processor Technology) http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/altair/altair6.htm (Altair) http://www.swtpc.com/ (SWTPC -- 6800-based computers) http://www.cpm.z80.de/ (Gabby's site - CP/M, not hardware) http://nic.funet.fi/pub/cbm/index.html (Commodore) http://www2.asub.arknet.edu/wade/hardware.htm (Radio Shack TRS-80) http://www.trs-80.com/ (more TRS-80) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 24 10:38:56 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <1093360952.13088.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001c489f0$8d539d00$2801010a@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 24 August 2004 16:23 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > Copious amounts of Jif (or whatever the hell it's called this > week) has worked well for me in the past. Some sort of > scouring sponge (rather than a simple cloth) is probably best > as case plastics tend to be somewhat uneven. The other lads in the workshop here agree with that - jif/cif is the way forward! Cheers a From edward at groenenberg.net Tue Aug 24 11:54:59 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: CDC drives available (model NSOMPI) Message-ID: <412B72E3.D5E41D40@groenenberg.net> I have available for those who want them, 3 CDC disk drives (model NSOMPI) with 8 80Mb disk packs. Each drive is approx 8 inch by 10 inch by 27 inch in size and they have an SMD interface. 6 of the packs are brown, 2 are blue. Ed P.S. the drives are in The Netherlands, shipping is possible, but it would not be cheap!. -- edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '97 TL1000S From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Aug 24 11:49:23 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: HP2100a VS HP2100s In-Reply-To: <00bd01c48912$89cc49e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <200408241649.i7OGnO0T016317@mail.bcpl.net> On 23 Aug 2004 at 8:10, Jay West wrote: > As a followup - I just found over the weekend something I wasn't aware > of. Apparently the 2100A/S isn't "entirely" microprogrammable. [...] > The other 1/3 of the base instruction set is actually done in hardware > - mostly. The 21MX M/E/F computers retain some of this as well. The alter-skip and shift-rotate instruction groups are implemented pretty much in hardware. The microcode for these instructions basically just executes ASG and SRG1/2 micro-order "specials," which set up the hardware to implement the instructions directly. I don't know if this carried over into the A-Series or not. The A700 ERD suggests not, but HP didn't provide microcode listings in this publication to confirm. -- Dave From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 24 12:45:56 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 12, Issue 33, Re: Drive Alignment In-Reply-To: <200408241736.i7OHZGfS000488@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200408241746.i7OHjtVe015237@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> RE: Drive Alignment 8" drives are usually pretty stable once aligned, but perhaps not over a period of decades. There are two ways to check/set alignment. The "classical" (mid-70's) way is to use an analog alignment diskette and a dual-channel oscilloscope. You connect the scope to two channels of the read head amplifier and seek to the alignment track of the disk (my recollection is track 38 decimal, the center of the 77-track diskette). You should see a kind of "filled in dual sine wave". If it's symmetrical or close, the alignment is correct. If one lobe (every other one) is of significantly greater amplitude than the lobes in between, you are out of alignment and you adjust the position of the head to get it right (this part varies from drive to drive). Then you have to check some other things, like the track 0 sensor and track 0 phase (on some drives). You need the analogy alignment disk, a scope and an "exerciser", or a computer with software that could let you manually seek and load the head as desired. The "modern" (about 1981) way was with a digital alignment diskette. This was a normal data disk, almost, but various tracks on the diskette were either correctly aligned, or intentionally mis-aligned by varying known amounts. By seeing which tracks could be read, and which could not, you could determine the alignment status of the drive. This was useful for checking alignment, but not nearly as good for setting it. SOME of these disks ALSO had the analog patter on track 38. You needed the digital alignment disk and software that knew what to do with it. The problem today is that the alignment disks (of either type) are not readily available, and most PC hobbyists don't have a scope. Documentation, knowledge and experience are also issues. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 24 13:01:44 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <412B827B.9040906@srv.net> Message-ID: <01af01c48a04$6a7e9780$033310ac@kwcorp.com> It was written.. > I normally just use 409 and paper towels. Takes several applications: > spray, let it soak for a while, wipe off, repeat. As I understand it, the yellowing is a reaction to light. It is the plastic itself turning color, so there is no way to "clean" it off. But as has been said, the yellowing is much worse in smoking environments, and some of the smoke can be taken off. I also have used 409 with fair results. 409 is what I usually use on cabinets and enclosures. It wont get rid of the yellow as that's now part of the plastic, but it does help a small amount. However, a while back my wife came home with these "Magic cleaning blocks". Basically a harder than usual sponge with some cleaning chemicals ingrained in it. I looked at her with more than a little disbelief when she suggested I use it on my "old computer stuff". Then someone on the list posted about good results with them, and I tried them. They are quite good for cleaning up old computers. They do a good job of cleaning the textured plastic without removing it or "sanding" it. I think Sam's has them for a decent price in bulk. I'd recommend them for sure. I have yet to try one on a yellowed plastic panel, but soon I will :) Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From lists at microvax.org Tue Aug 24 13:17:26 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: DEC Infoservers References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain><00b701c485e8$abdc39a0$0a00a8c0@coffee> <12730.82.152.112.73.1092936564.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <008c01c48a06$9d8ee100$0a00a8c0@coffee> > Are they all SCSI? If so why not just install it on one of 'em then make > multiple copies of the resulting disk...... No, otherwise i'd've just used my Toshiba CDROM to get it on there. > > Failing that, has anybody taken an image of the ROMs in an IS100/150 - i'd > > quite like to try making a uVAX3100 think it's an Infoserver... > > I bet Fred has.... Yeah, we had a very quick discussion about it where he told me he's already done it. One very very quick google later for "infoserver 150 waltje" gives us: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-October/021003.html So it's doable. alex/melt From lists at microvax.org Tue Aug 24 13:18:23 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 vs. PDP 11/03-L References: <20040819193654.A0F0A790032@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <009d01c48a06$bf794850$0a00a8c0@coffee> From: "wai-sun chia" > Another important thing is that the DEC logo is different! :-) > On the 11/03 the font used is the regular lower-case font, while on the 11/03-L the font used looks like uppercase Avant Garde.. Interesting - anyone got a pic of this? alex/melt From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 24 13:27:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040822110318.0616e0d0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: >>> >>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at >>> Sears for about $10. >>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the >>> Mac version works better. Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 13:20:09 2004 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <200408201701.i7KH0Wbf073999@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040824182009.76354.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> I've got a spare MacPlus Case Cracker i'd part with... Send me a private e-mail if you're interested. > From: Gene Buckle > I've got the Torx tool, I need the gadget that's > used to split the case without destroying it in > the process. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 24 13:31:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 vs. PDP 11/03-L References: <20040819193654.A0F0A790032@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <16683.35224.780116.131269@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "wai-sun" == wai-sun chia writes: wai-sun> Another important thing is that the DEC logo is different! wai-sun> :-) On the 11/03 the font used is the regular lower-case wai-sun> font, while on the 11/03-L the font used looks like wai-sun> uppercase Avant Garde.. That's odd. The digital logo has changed over time, but I don't believe the officially approved logo ever was upper case. It's actually a drawn logo, not a standard font, even though it looks a bit like Helvetica. paul From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Aug 24 13:38:07 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <000001c489f0$8d539d00$2801010a@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <00a401c48a09$7ff5cb10$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> > The other lads in the workshop here agree with that - jif/cif is the way > forward! Could someone translate this into American? Over here Jif is a brand of peanut butter. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From cb at mythtech.net Tue Aug 24 13:39:51 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ I have a few Compaq computers that used Torx screws. -chris From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Aug 24 13:51:18 2004 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Resurrecting an early 80s SGI Message-ID: <446467945.20040824205118@g-lenerz.de> Hello, I've recently added an IRIS 3130 machine to my collection. It is a MultiBus based SGI with a Motorola 68020 CPU, additional Floating Point unit and the typical 5 or 6 board graphics subsystem. It's complete with original UNIX documentation and owners guide as well as the original extras (monitor, keyboard, mouse). I'd like to get it up and running again but I can't get any of the backups back on a "fresh" ESDI drive (the original died). According to the Old IRIS FAQ the drive is supported. As far as I can see it is also detected but the process that should restore the installation back to harddisk dies quite early in the copy stage. Thus the current status is: The machine passes POST without problems, it can be talked into booting the installer and partitioning tool from tape but it crashes during the copy operation. As I said I'd like to get this beast up and running (i.e. have an OS Installed). A "nice to have bonus" would be having a working TCP/IP stack on it so that it can run in my network (an Ethernet board is present). Any hints / help is *very* much appreciated. I can -of course- provide additional information if it is needed. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail@g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 24 14:04:55 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040823151555.052b34f0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <412BAD77.13647.4E1E7C4E@localhost> Am 23 Aug 2004 22:19 meinte Adrian Graham: > Hi folks, > > Had a mail from someone who has 2 of these 'boxed in new condition'. They're > pretty early BASIC calculators so they must be of interest to someone; he'd > like to know how much they're worth to collectors - it's the first time > someone's mailed me who doesn't want to stick things on ebay! The black version, or silver. New, originaly sealed, or just with everything? Usualy they range from 5 to 30 Bucks ... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 24 14:07:36 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040822110318.0616e0d0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <412BAE18.4475.4E20F0F7@localhost> Am 24 Aug 2004 14:27 meinte David V. Corbin: > >>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at > >>> Sears for about $10. > >>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the > >>> Mac version works better. > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ jUST BUY ANY sIEMENS: gRUSS h: -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 14:19:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:27 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, John Lawson wrote: > If you had the proper spell-check carthridge in your 'puter, you'd know > these things... ^^^^^^^^^^ Have you considered that perhaps the rest of the world spells carthridge incorrectly? Duh! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 24 14:25:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040822110318.0616e0d0@mail.comcast.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040822110318.0616e0d0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4AF23C6E-F603-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I got a copy of OS 7.1 - installed it with my 2mb memory, It seems to work fine - I have done everything so far with no problems.. :^) If I can make it to VCF, Sellam says he'll host an "Upgrade your memory" Seminar on my behalf. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 14:26:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > Had a mail from someone who has 2 of these 'boxed in new condition'. They're > pretty early BASIC calculators so they must be of interest to someone; he'd > like to know how much they're worth to collectors - it's the first time > someone's mailed me who doesn't want to stick things on ebay! I'm a collector, and I'd pay US$1 each ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 14:28:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Need data sheet for Nintendo chip Message-ID: A friend is seeking information on a DRAM chip found in Nintendo game carthridges. The ID is: LH2833-15 SHARP Japan 8652 1D Does anyone have the data sheet? Looks like 1986ish. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at spies.com Tue Aug 24 14:32:11 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Resurrecting an early 80s SGI Message-ID: <20040824193211.E655F3CD6@spies.com> > I'd like to get it up and running again but I can't get any of the backups back on a "fresh" ESDI drive (the original died). -- Have you formatted the drive with the stand-alone formatter? From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 24 14:39:24 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Origin of row/column based database software In-Reply-To: <1093038091.4799.8.camel@dhcp-248027> References: <41237B8A.4030703@srv.net> <4123AD87.16672.2EDEBA9F@localhost> <1093038091.4799.8.camel@dhcp-248027> Message-ID: <1093376363.3798.8.camel@dhcp-250222> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 14:41, Tom Jennings wrote: > Los Alamos research into ahem "metal driven explosive systems", Oops sorry, it's 'explosive-driven metal systems'. My bad. From rhahm at nycap.rr.com Tue Aug 24 14:41:13 2004 From: rhahm at nycap.rr.com (RHahm) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning Yellow Grubby stuff Message-ID: Here's what I do: 1.. For stuff in fairly good shape I use Simple Green and a Black and Decker "Scum Buster" rotary brush that uses the B&D rechargeabe batteries. I use the soft brush attachment. I usually remove the case and take it out in the driveway with a hose. If it is really yellowed I use Purple Power this will remove some , but not all of the yellowing, but it can stain metal so be careful. Simple Green is safe and works great for dirt and grime. 2.. For magic marker and stickers I use Goo be Gone and elbow grease. 3.. To finish things off I use automobile protectant Looks alot better after that. From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 24 14:50:48 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: 8" floppy project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093377047.3798.20.camel@dhcp-250222> > > The IBM PC/XT and PC/AT Technical Reference manuals include complete > > schematics, and they include complete, commented source code listings In fact they're so good, I've kept my very early IBM PC Technical Reference Manual even though I have zero (0) interest in the Beige Era. Man I spent a lot of time working with that ROM BIOS code. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 14:54:38 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Resurrecting an early 80s SGI In-Reply-To: <446467945.20040824205118@g-lenerz.de> References: <446467945.20040824205118@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <1093377278.13088.107.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 18:51, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ Nice web pages. Under 'common problems' for the Personal Iris (and Indigo) series you could add that people always throw the bloody custom keyboards away ;-) I think we've been offered four 4Dxx machines in the last six months and two Indigos - and only one keyboard between all six (Grrr!) cheers, Jules From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 24 14:30:16 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06D1BFD4-F604-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> carthridge Isn't that a town in indiana? :^) From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 24 15:00:50 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 In-Reply-To: <001d01c48952$96539480$6c881442@computer> References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> <001d01c48952$96539480$6c881442@computer> Message-ID: <1093377649.3798.23.camel@dhcp-250222> On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 13:48, Mike wrote: > here's mine: > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/ge30001.jpg Well aren't we fancy! Keyboard! :-) > I also still have it's service manual somewhere for after gravity's angel > kiss here though. (If I'd had any docs I might have fixed it... I actually liked the damned thing, mainly for the noise. I printed out some of the early Fido/FidoNet manuals on the thing. Bold print and everything!) From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Aug 24 15:05:40 2004 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Resurrecting an early 80s SGI In-Reply-To: <20040824193211.E655F3CD6@spies.com> References: <20040824193211.E655F3CD6@spies.com> Message-ID: <14210088635.20040824220540@g-lenerz.de> Tuesday, August 24, 2004, 9:32:11 PM, you wrote: >> I'd like to get it up and running again but I can't get any of the >> backups back on a "fresh" ESDI drive (the original died). > Have you formatted the drive with the stand-alone formatter? I've used 'sifex' to format the HDD and from there I tried to restore the system. I don't have any original installation media - just backups made on the machine itself. I begin to suspect that either there is still something wrong with disk that I fail to see (it's the third one that I and the previous owner tried) or the backups are in some way specific to a system or partition layout which of course is now completely lost. Gerhard From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 24 15:03:25 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 In-Reply-To: <003201c4897c$519a8e50$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> <003201c4897c$519a8e50$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <1093377805.3798.25.camel@dhcp-250222> On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 18:47, ed sharpe wrote: > oh nooo!!!! it is one of the black ones!!! did it say Honeywell on it? > > aghghghg yaayeyyyyaaaaeeee ( a renting of clothing in the biblical style) Umm, (looks around) well maybe, yes, it did, black wrinkle... I think I bought it at American Used Computer. Way Back. From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 24 15:05:45 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: My GE Terminet 300 In-Reply-To: <003a01c4897c$8a5e1c70$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> <001d01c48952$96539480$6c881442@computer> <003a01c4897c$8a5e1c70$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <1093377945.3798.29.camel@dhcp-250222> On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 18:49, ed sharpe wrote: > this is one of the earlier terminet 300 too! I take it they are not common. I wish I had one now... Keep in mind, it disintegrated in 1984, I bought it who-knows-when, 1970's. I've done worse things, like throwing out a 100% complete set of Varian 622/i manuals and software on paper tape, including floating point libraries, assembler, editor, (pain in chest). About that time too. Whew. Plus the machine itself. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Aug 24 15:09:27 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE References: Message-ID: <041401c48a16$426c3d80$6800a8c0@athlon1200> Lots of early Compacs did- they even supplied Compac branded (maybe really Xcelite?) multi-bit Torx drivers for a while. Still have one round here somewhere. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:27 AM Subject: RE: What fun from a Macintosh SE >>>> >>>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at >>>> Sears for about $10. >>>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the >>>> Mac version works better. > > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a > Torx................ > > From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Aug 24 15:14:36 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <06D1BFD4-F604-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <06D1BFD4-F604-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > > carthridge > > Isn't that a town in indiana? People from a Biblical place. Carthraginians ouch! From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Aug 24 15:19:10 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <20040824162736.2213.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <005d01c48a03$2fc437e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <009701c48a17$b5915ce0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > "Patina" I think is a term also used for older coins, the oxide that forms > on a silver or copper coin actually preserves it from further damage, > cleaning it would destroy detail and it will oxidize again anyway. Also used for describing the weathered finish on statues - some were scrubbed clean by the victorians in British museums with results that are far from making modern art historians happy, for the same reason as for coins. Geoff. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 15:28:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Many old laptops needed ($$$) Message-ID: I'm working on a research project for a client and am looking for a large lot of mid-90s laptops. They do not need to be in functional condition, nor do they even need to look pretty, but the screen should be intact (i.e. not missing, no breakage). Otherwise, missing parts (keys, drives, batteries, etc.) is fine. I'm willing to pay a reasonable fee plus shipping for each. If you have any of these, please e-mail me directly. Toshiba T1000LE Acer AcerNote 750C Acer AcerNote 760CX Acer AcerNote 780CX Ambra N450T AMS TravelPro 5325 Apple PowerBook 270c AST Ascentia 900N AST PowerExec 173W AST PowerExec 203W AST PowerExec 4/33SL AT&T Globalyst 200 AT&T/NCR Safari 3180 Business Audio Compaq Contura 400C Compaq LTE Elite 4/40CX Compaq LTE Elite 4/50CX Compaq LTE Lite 4/33C CTX LMT-5020 Dell Latitude XP Dell Latitude XP 4100CX Everex StepNote IBM 701C IBM ThinkPad 360C IBM ThinkPad 360CE IBM ThinkPad 750C IBM ThinkPad 755CD IBM ThinkPad 755CE Midwest Micro Elite 486SX/DX Midwest Micro SoundBook MPC 799 MPC 875 MPC 899 MPC CD-Book 800 NCR 3150 NEC LCD1280 NEC UltraLite Versa 33c NEC Versa M NEC Versa P NEC Versa S NEC Versa V NEC Versa V/50C Notemaster S394ST SENSLite 200 Panasonic V21 Panasonic V41 Samsung SENS 700 Sharp LC-10C1U Sharp PC-8900 Tadpole P1000 TI TravelMate 4000E TI TravelMate 5000 TI TravelMate TM4000M Toshiba Portege T3400CT Toshiba Portege T3600CT Toshiba Satellite T1950CT Toshiba T2100CT Toshiba T2150CDT Toshiba T2400CT Toshiba T2450CT Toshiba T3400CT Toshiba T4600C Toshiba T4800CT Toshiba T4850CT TwinHead SlimNote 486E TwinHead SlimNote 5100T WinBook XP Zenith Z-Note 433Lnc Plus Zenith Z-NoteFlex ZNF75CT8/5 Zeos Meridian 400A -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 15:48:02 2004 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning Yellowed Plastic... In-Reply-To: <200408241844.i7OIiTfV002812@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040824204802.4047.qmail@web13421.mail.yahoo.com> I used to work for a company that repaired and refurbished monitors. What we used to do was use SoftScrub with bleach on the yellowed plastics, and once cleaned as best we could... Hit the pieces with Armor-All. That combination did a good job of making the plastic whiter, and restored a shine to it. I also think Armor all has chemicals in it that help protect the plastic from the Sun. Give that a try... (I also use spray cleaner with bleach to get into the crevices.) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 24 15:51:34 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <1093341843.12891.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> <1093341843.12891.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040824205134.GA4811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 10:04:03AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > ...or it that doesn't work, then keeping it cold... Hmm... I wonder where I could get a lot of really cold air?!? :-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83 F (-63.9 C) Windchill -121.2 F (-85.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10 kts Grid 062 Barometer 675.5 mb (10796. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 15:56:10 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040824134952.E87479@shell.lmi.net> > >>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at > >>> Sears for about $10. > >>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the > >>> Mac version works better. On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ The original Compaqs used Torx for damn near everything. The PC (not "ANY PC", but 5150) uses Torx screws on the power supply. "Security" Torx even! (with a tiny post up the middle) Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy. Yes, I can remove those screws without the correct bit. But I do not damage fasteners in non-emergency situations. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 24 15:58:31 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <041401c48a16$426c3d80$6800a8c0@athlon1200> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824162752.0503fea8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave Brown may have mentioned these words: >Lots of early Compacs did- they even supplied Compac branded (maybe really >Xcelite?) multi-bit Torx drivers for a while. Still have one round here >somewhere. IBM external 360K 5.25" floppy drives -- don't remember the model number, but I had one hacked into my CoCo for quite a while (and could again, if I had the room). T10 or T15 Security Torx. I got the screws out with my leatherman (as I had no security torx drivers oh so long ago) -- bent the pin over enough so I could get traction with the small regular screwdriver in 2 of the star points of the torx. Some early Tandy machines had non-security torx screws as well, but they might have been like the later Compaq ones, which could use a regular (blade) screwdriver as well. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 16:06:23 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <06D1BFD4-F604-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <06D1BFD4-F604-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040824135854.Q87479@shell.lmi.net> > carthridge > Isn't that a town in indiana? > :^) Carthridge must be destroyed! "Ceterum censeo Carthridge esse delendam." -- Cato the Elder From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Aug 24 16:06:37 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040824134952.E87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at > > >>> Sears for about $10. > > >>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the > > >>> Mac version works better. > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a > Torx................ > > The original Compaqs used Torx for damn near everything. > > The PC (not "ANY PC", but 5150) uses Torx screws on the power supply. > "Security" Torx even! (with a tiny post up the middle) > > Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy. A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 16:07:40 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: <20040824205134.GA4811@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040823231136.GA28519@bos7.spole.gov> <1093341843.12891.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040824205134.GA4811@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1093381659.13088.158.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 20:51, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 10:04:03AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > ...or it that doesn't work, then keeping it cold... > > Hmm... I wonder where I could get a lot of really cold air?!? > > :-) Ha ha! Sure, just throw the drive in a plastic bag and pitch it outside :-) cheers Jules From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 24 16:13:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: <1093360952.13088.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040824211320.GB4811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 09:32:40AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Most plastic computer enclosures have some sort of texture. I guess it's > an asthetic thing, since most prototypes I've got have smooth plastic > enclosures. Textured finishes don't show off fingerprints. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 21:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-65.0 C) Windchill -123.6 F (-86.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10 kts Grid 058 Barometer 675.5 mb (10796. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Aug 24 16:14:40 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <20040824135854.Q87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:06 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access > > > > carthridge > > Isn't that a town in indiana? > > :^) > > Carthridge must be destroyed! > "Ceterum censeo Carthridge esse delendam." No, no. That's "Rock Ridge" must be destroyed... it's in the way of the railroad. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 24 16:26:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> The original Compaqs used Torx for damn near everything. Mea Culpy, I forgot how many of the vintage PeeCees [Can I say that without being shot?] DID use Torx... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 16:25:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040824141505.G87479@shell.lmi.net> > > Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy. On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the > impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain > security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full > set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier. 20+ years ago (the 5150 came out in 1981), security torx bits were a bit hard to find around here. About 10 years ago, they became quite common. Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real security, since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases, just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 24 16:28:37 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040824134952.E87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040824212837.GC4811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 05:06:37PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the > impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain > security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full > set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier. I think I paid $9 for my set at Dayton... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.4 F (-63.6 C) Windchill -115.4 F (-81.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 069 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 24 16:31:35 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040824134952.E87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824172935.03b9d490@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bill Sudbrink may have mentioned these words: >A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the >impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain >security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full >set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier. Any chance he could get his hands on one of those funky 5-pointed security torx? Those bastages are a royal bitch to get... I only want one so I can tighten up my Leatherman Wave. :-\ Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 24 16:31:36 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040824141505.G87479@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040824141505.G87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040824213136.GD4811@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 02:25:42PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real security, > since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases, > just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip. Specifically with the 5150 PSU, I found that the post was brittle enough to snap out with the right sized flat-blade screwdriver. A regular Torx worked after that (I also rarely damage fasteners in non-emergency situations, but this is no where near as bad as grabbing it with a pair of vise grips). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.4 F (-63.6 C) Windchill -115.4 F (-81.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 069 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 16:33:57 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: <1093341446.12891.3.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1093341446.12891.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040824143249.G87479@shell.lmi.net> > I've never come > across computor before, but as Tony says maybe it was different on the > other side of the pond... What is the computor's favourite colour? We are many peoples divided by a common language. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 24 16:37:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040824141505.G87479@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040824141505.G87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1093383443.13088.167.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 21:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real security, > since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases, > just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip. Or worst-case I usually end up sawing a slot across them with a hacksaw and then just using a normal flat-blade screwdriver on them. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 16:46:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040824134952.E87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy. > Yes, I can remove those screws without the correct bit. > But I do not damage fasteners in non-emergency situations. Cutting a slot into an otherwise peroperly fitting flat-head screwdriver will probably do the trick :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 16:49:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <1093383443.13088.167.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 21:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real security, > > since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases, > > just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip. > > Or worst-case I usually end up sawing a slot across them with a hacksaw > and then just using a normal flat-blade screwdriver on them. Dynamite works well. Er, too well :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Aug 24 16:55:23 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040822110318.0616e0d0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040824165523.52f476de.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:27:00 -0400 "David V. Corbin" wrote: > >>> > >>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at > >>> Sears for about $10. > >>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the > >>> Mac version works better. > > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a > Torx................ > All the old Compaq machines used Torx screws. I know, because one of the first 'upgrades' I used to do on Compaq boxes I intended to use for anything was to upgrade (downgrade?) all the screws to phillips. From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Aug 24 17:00:35 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Mac SE 800k boot disks In-Reply-To: <20040823160353.60000.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823160353.60000.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040824170035.7b8819e8.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) David Ward wrote: > > Hello List, > > Help. I rescued a Mac SE, mouse, and keyboard. My problem is it has > the 800k low-density diskette drive and a wiped hard drive. I don_t > have a Mac compatible drive needed to create the boot disks. > > Would anyone have a set of boot disks? > > Sincerely and thank you in advance, > David I don't know if it would work at all in your vintage of Mac SE, but I have piles and piles of the Macintosh high density 'super drive' floppy disk drives from a lot of different ages of Macs. Can someone chime in on wether your SE could be upgraded to use one just by swapping the drive? If so, you can have one or several for the cost of postage. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 24 17:17:05 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Mac SE 800k boot disks In-Reply-To: <20040824170035.7b8819e8.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: <20040823160353.60000.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> <20040824170035.7b8819e8.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040824221705.GA13072@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 05:00:35PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > I don't know if it would work at all in your vintage of Mac SE, but I > have piles and piles of the Macintosh high density 'super drive' floppy > disk drives from a lot of different ages of Macs. Can someone chime in > on wether your SE could be upgraded to use one just by swapping the > drive? If so, you can have one or several for the cost of postage. AFAIK, to use a "super drive" in an SE, you need suitable ROMs as well as a suitable drive. The case for such is marked "FDHD" (fud-hud), for "Floppy Drive, High Density". I have one in Ohio. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.4 F (-64.0 C) Windchill -117.6 F (-83.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.8 kts Grid 073 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 17:19:56 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <005d01c48a03$2fc437e0$0500fea9@game> References: <20040824162736.2213.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <005d01c48a03$2fc437e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040824151911.E87479@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > The problem is new furniture has to look 100% new, while something 200+ > years old has to look vintage (some signs of normal ageing). While some rich > person would love to have a piece of furniture that Napoleon might have > scuffed with his boot (a good story helps) they don't want a new table they > spent tons of money on to get dinged by the movers (no interesting story > there). So,... the damage that you do reduces the value, UNTIL you become famous. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 17:46:27 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Digital Logo [was: Re: PDP 11/03 vs. PDP 11/03-L] In-Reply-To: <16683.35224.780116.131269@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040819193654.A0F0A790032@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> <16683.35224.780116.131269@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <412BC543.6050405@frixxon.co.uk> Paul Koning wrote: > > The digital logo has changed over time, but I don't > believe the officially approved logo ever was upper case. It's > actually a drawn logo, not a standard font, even though it looks a bit > like Helvetica. It was even designed in the same year. When Ned Batchelder prepared a PostScript version of the Digital logo in 1987, he also investigated its history: --quote-- The logo was designed in 1957 by Elliot Hendrickson, who was then working as an independent designer. He was contracted by DEC to do a brochure, and DEC wanted a logo to accompany it. The logo up to then had been the letters DEC in blocks the shape of the plug-in cards that DEC had been producing. Elliot re-worked the logo, incorporating letters which were hand-drawn for the purpose by Arthur Hover(?). The logo has been maintained since then in conventional technology, ie, film masters. There was at least one reworking of the logo at some point. The masters I received had a number of interesting features. The boxes were not all the same width, and there seemed to be no logic to which boxes were wider. The 'g' was the narrowest, and the 'i' and 'l' were second widest. Also, the two 'i's were not exactly the same shape. On ten-inch masters, (one box to an 8=x11 sheet), the boxes were not rectangles, but were very slightly tapered in wierd ways. I assume that the tapering is the result of too many reproductions, but the difference in widths may have been deliberate at some time. Elliot reports that when he drew it, all boxes were the same width. I have retained the different widths in my version, since the experts I had at hand did not seem to think I should make them uniform. --unquote-- -- Paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 17:47:31 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040824153757.K87479@shell.lmi.net> > > Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy. > > Yes, I can remove those screws without the correct bit. > > But I do not damage fasteners in non-emergency situations. On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Cutting a slot into an otherwise peroperly fitting flat-head screwdriver > will probably do the trick :) For emergency use, it'll do, and probably without a NOTICEABLE amount of damage. But for a Torx screw, there is no such thing as a "peroperly fitting flat-head screwdriver". 'course with a little bit of careful grinding on the corners of the screwdriver, you could make in into a properly fitting "two-point" Torx driver. Or decide how much minor damage/wear you are willing to inflict on fasteners by utilizing a tool that is not quite right. (Someday I'll complete my set of Whitworth tools) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 24 17:47:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 12, Issue 33, Re: Drive Alignment Message-ID: <200408242247.PAA09707@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" ---snip--- > >The "modern" (about 1981) way was with a digital alignment diskette. This >was a normal data disk, almost, but various tracks on the diskette were >either correctly aligned, or intentionally mis-aligned by varying known >amounts. By seeing which tracks could be read, and which could not, you >could determine the alignment status of the drive. This was useful for >checking alignment, but not nearly as good for setting it. SOME of these >disks ALSO had the analog patter on track 38. You needed the digital >alignment disk and software that knew what to do with it. > ---snip--- Hi This track is created by having two signals recorded a half track apart. One signal has one extra cycle in it per revolution of the disk. This makes the cats eye pattern when the two signals add together in the head. Another method used was to microstep 5 times across the track with a tone. The tone centers on the track would be the highest. If you take my ascii art and lay it on its side, that would be what u see on a scope: | # # ### ### ##### ##### ### ### # # | # # ### ### ##### ##### ### ### # # | A misaligned track might look like: | # # ### ### ##### ##### ##### ##### # # | # # ### ### ##### ##### ##### ##### # # | This tended to look more blocky than smooth like the cats eye pattern but didn't require a tone to be exactly one cycle different per revolution of the disk. One could make there own disk like this with a micro stepping controller for the stepper and a micrometer to set the track position relative to the center of the disk. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 24 14:21:03 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <00a401c48a09$7ff5cb10$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul A. Pennington > Sent: 24 August 2004 19:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > Could someone translate this into American? Over here > Jif is a brand of peanut butter. Heh, is it? That'll confuse any holidaying Brits over there :D Cif (as it's now called) is a cream cleanser for kitchens/bathrooms etc and bits of me think it's ever-so slightly abrasive but I could be remembering wrongly. I thought it had been renamed from Jif for the global market - do you not have Cif over there? Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 24 16:00:41 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: <412BAD77.13647.4E1E7C4E@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: 24 August 2004 20:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sharp PC1248 > > The black version, or silver. > New, originaly sealed, or just with everything? It's the black one, boxed with all the accessories. > Usualy they range from 5 to 30 Bucks ... I didn't think they'd be up to much; ta for that! Cheers w From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 24 17:11:59 2004 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040823151555.052b34f0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040824230717.01cb2da0@slave> At 22:19 23/08/2004, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >Had a mail from someone who has 2 of these 'boxed in new condition'. They're >pretty early BASIC calculators so they must be of interest to someone; he'd >like to know how much they're worth to collectors - it's the first time >someone's mailed me who doesn't want to stick things on ebay! Bugger all is the answer. You can still buy them new - google for "Merlin 2 navigation computer". Yours for AU$235, and that includes some useful software. I have a bunch of them, although they're not NIB. I also have some PC1360s, which are cooler IMHO. Also, somewhere, I have a super-rarity - a piece of software called "Transfile PC" which - with the included cable - allows one to write basic programs with your PC (c/w proper keyboard, obviously), then transfer them to the Sharp PCxxxx (it supported a number of models, including the PC1248) to be run. Dead handy, it was - I must root it out again & make sure it still works... Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.com From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 17:19:31 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: DEC country codes In-Reply-To: <000b01c48862$9ef70d60$0a00a8c0@coffee> References: <000b01c48862$9ef70d60$0a00a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: <26c11a6404082415192b4a3137@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:10:59 +0100, meltie wrote: > Does anybody have a link to a document listing DEC's country code > suffixes? -AA, -AB, -YA etc > > cheers! > alex/melt > > http://www.decus.de:8080/www/eng/vms/qaa/sernum.htmlx Dan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 17:57:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040824151911.E87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > The problem is new furniture has to look 100% new, while something 200+ > > years old has to look vintage (some signs of normal ageing). While some rich > > person would love to have a piece of furniture that Napoleon might have > > scuffed with his boot (a good story helps) they don't want a new table they > > spent tons of money on to get dinged by the movers (no interesting story > > there). > > So,... > the damage that you do reduces the value, UNTIL you become famous. I'll go around kicking dents in stuff you own for $5 per dent, but there's no guarantees I'll ever be famous :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lists at microvax.org Tue Aug 24 18:06:57 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: DEC country codes References: <000b01c48862$9ef70d60$0a00a8c0@coffee> <26c11a6404082415192b4a3137@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <016a01c48a2f$0fc10320$0a00a8c0@coffee> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Williams" > http://www.decus.de:8080/www/eng/vms/qaa/sernum.htmlx > > Dan That's really useful, but what I really meant was for model codes - for instance, for an Infoserver 1000 I can buy different models with different country kits (PSU and language plate options, basically): SEADB-AS SEADB-AA SEADB-AX SEADB-BA etc... that's what i'm looking for. alex/melt From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 18:14:34 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> > > Jif is a brand of peanut butter. www.jif.com On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > Heh, is it? That'll confuse any holidaying Brits over there :D Not half as badly as vacationing Americans who want a sandwich over there! > Cif (as it's now called) is a cream cleanser for kitchens/bathrooms etc and > bits of me think it's ever-so slightly abrasive but I could be remembering > wrongly. I thought it had been renamed from Jif for the global market - do > you not have Cif over there? Peanut butter is commonly suggested for cleaning chewing gum out of kids' hair and dog fur. I wonder how well it would work for cleaning plastic cases? From shirker at mooli.org.uk Tue Aug 24 18:19:31 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:28 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Philip, I believe I *might* have one of these terminals new in the box. > I'll check later today and if so I'll extract the manual and get it to Al > for scanning. Hi Sellam, 'twas me that sold it to Phil, and I have lots more if anyone else in the UK wants one and is prepared to either a) pick it up or b) pay for postage. All have amber CRTs. I also have around a cubic metre or so of the "spares" keyboards Phil mentions for these. What I don't have, however, is the manuals - these are with Fred van Kempen in the Netherlands. *prods Fred* I also have your LA120 ribbons, Fred. *prods Fred again* So, if you can get them scanned that'd be great. Regards, Ed. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 24 18:31:33 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? Message-ID: <200408242331.QAA09749@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >> > Jif is a brand of peanut butter. >www.jif.com > >On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Heh, is it? That'll confuse any holidaying Brits over there :D > >Not half as badly as vacationing Americans who want a sandwich over there! > >> Cif (as it's now called) is a cream cleanser for kitchens/bathrooms etc and >> bits of me think it's ever-so slightly abrasive but I could be remembering >> wrongly. I thought it had been renamed from Jif for the global market - do >> you not have Cif over there? > >Peanut butter is commonly suggested for cleaning chewing gum >out of kids' hair and dog fur. >I wonder how well it would work for cleaning plastic cases? > > > Hi Another thing to try that I've used is melted butter. It seems to work well on removing grim on textured surfaces. I don't know if margarine will work because I've never tried it. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 24 18:50:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam Wrote: >>> >>> I'll go around kicking dents in stuff you own for $5 per >>> dent, but there's no guarantees I'll ever be famous :) >>> Guess you will have to settle for being infamous.... From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 24 18:52:27 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <412BD4BB.4040900@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Jif is a brand of peanut butter. > > www.jif.com OK, this is what we mean by Jif (or Cif as it's now known): http://www.unilever.co.uk/ourbrands/brand_cif.html http://www.unilever.com/brands/hpc/cif.asp And yes, it is abrasive. Fine for textured plastic, but don't use it on glossy plastics like old telephones. It'll scratch 'em! So, what's this "409" stuff that was mentioned earlier? -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 19:02:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <412BD4BB.4040900@gifford.co.uk> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <412BD4BB.4040900@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040824165919.S87479@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John Honniball wrote: > So, what's this "409" stuff that was mentioned earlier? A "general purpose" liquid degreasing cleanser, usually provided in a spritzer bottle. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 24 19:09:47 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive Message-ID: <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Years ago, I owned a data cassette drive made by a company called National Multiplex, presumably long defunct. It was obviously a modified audio cassette recorder, but in which the internal electronics had been completely replaced. Unlike the prevailing standard for cassette-based data storage on micros in that day, this drive used saturation recording (NRZI, I believe) instead of a modulated audio carrier. It was a very functional replacement for a paper tape reader/punch, and ran up to 9600 bps using hi-fi grade audio tapes. I would be interested in locating one of these beasts to replicate the setup I had on my IMSAI before I sold the drive years ago. The drive came with schematics, and as far as I remember, the circuitry was rather simple -- a couple of op amps and a few gates. Alternately, if I can locate a copy of the drawings, I may attempt to reproduce the design using a contemporary audio cassette mechanism. Has anyone ever seen one of these? --Bill From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 24 19:10:29 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message Shirker wrote: > What I don't have, however, is the manuals - these are with Fred van > Kempen in the Netherlands. *prods Fred* OK, I'll join you. *prods Fred* > So, if you can get them scanned that'd be great. Speaking of scanning, if anyone in the UK wants any manuals less than 100 A4 pages scanning, I've got an Epson Perfection 2400 here that can do pretty decent text scanning. If anyone wants to see some - ahem - "hardware pr0n", I took a few photos of the innards of the low-voltage section in the base of the terminal. I've just finished getting hosting for my domain name set up, so all being well I should be able to upload them tomorrow. Right now, it's far too late to be faffing around with SFTP :-) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... What if there were no hypothetical questions? From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 24 19:11:50 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <412BD4BB.4040900@gifford.co.uk> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Honniball may have mentioned these words: >Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>Jif is a brand of peanut butter. >>www.jif.com > >OK, this is what we mean by Jif (or Cif as it's now known): > > http://www.unilever.co.uk/ourbrands/brand_cif.html > http://www.unilever.com/brands/hpc/cif.asp > >And yes, it is abrasive. Fine for textured plastic, but don't use >it on glossy plastics like old telephones. It'll scratch 'em! It would probably scratch bakelite as well, eh? From your second link, this snippit may shed a bit'o'light on the name change: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Global presence Increasingly the name Cif is replacing regional names like Jif, providing a platform from which Cif can become a truly global brand. Cif is now sold in 45 countries, with Asia the fastest-growing region and India its biggest market. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= If they're truly going global and looking to market here in the USA, "Jif" the cleaner would certainly clash with "Jif" the peanut butter. As I understand it, "peanut butter" is solely a North-American delicacy... the closest thing I'd heart of in the UK would be Vegemite (or maybe marmite), but IIRC that's made from brewers yeast, is it not? Nutella would be similar as well, if you mixed peanut butter with chocolate before canning... Hmmm... Time to see where I can order some; haven't had any in *ages*... >So, what's this "409" stuff that was mentioned earlier? It's a non-abrasive spray cleaner primarily designed for kitchens and bathrooms as it's supposed to cut grease rather well. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 24 19:13:38 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412BD9B2.4080804@mdrconsult.com> David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at >>>>Sears for about $10. >>>>They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the >>>>Mac version works better. > > > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ Compaq Presario, circa P-166. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 19:20:17 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040824171805.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > If they're truly going global and looking to market here in the USA, "Jif" > the cleaner would certainly clash with "Jif" the peanut butter. In terms of trademark? Or simply a bad mix of flavors? From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Aug 24 19:22:52 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: Message-ID: <003f01c48a39$a91c9c50$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> > Cif (as it's now called) is a cream cleanser for kitchens/bathrooms etc > and > bits of me think it's ever-so slightly abrasive but I could be remembering > wrongly. I thought it had been renamed from Jif for the global market - do > you not have Cif over there? No, I've never heard of Cif. We call it Soft Scrub. I have used that to good effect on plastic cases with flat finishes. I always used the plain version, but it's also available with bleach -- perhaps that would work better. I have used peanut butter to remove sticky label residue, but that was before I discovered De-Solv-It, the orange oil based product. Now, which is the boot and which is the bonnet? Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 18:38:06 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Drive alignment In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7A43@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> from "Parker, Kevin" at Aug 24, 4 03:47:35 pm Message-ID: > > I have a TRS80 Model 12 that's been upgraded to a 16B (with two 8" > slim-line floppies). I am trying to copy some discs but not having much > joy. > > One theroy is the media is cactus. > > The other theory is that following some reading about these machines, > because of the size of the drives they tended to get out of alignment > regularly. How do I check alignment on the old classics. Take a known-good blank 8" disk and format it on one of your drives. If you can then read/write to it in that drive without problems, then the only thing that could be wrong with the drive is the alignment. If it fails, then you have other problems with the drive. To check the alignment properly, you need a CE (Catseye) disk and a 'scope. Basically the disk has a special patern recorded on it (this cannot be copied using a normal drive, BTW) and you look at the outputs of the read amplifier with a the 'scope. You see a pattern of 2 lobes on the 'scope screen -- if they're the same height the head is alighed, if one is larger than the other it's offset from the correct position. It's not hard to do, but the Catseye disk is expensive (I am still looking for the 8" and 3" ones, BTW...). My experience suggests that head radial alignment is not normally a problem unless you've replaced parts of the drive. More likely is a dirty head (you have cleaned it, right? With a cotton bud dipped in propan-2-ol, not one of those useless cleaning disks), a worn-out head, other mechnaicl problems, or an electronic failure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 18:48:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 24, 4 02:27:00 pm Message-ID: > > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ THe PSUs in my true-blue IBMs are assembled with tamperproof Torx screws (the ones with the pin in the middle). Of course this didn't stop me taking them apart ;-).... THe PSU and monitor in my PortabelPC (5155) have some Bristol Spline screws in them. Now thoese are non-trivial to find tools for in the UK... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 18:58:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Aug 24, 4 05:06:37 pm Message-ID: > > A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the > impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain > security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full > set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier. Over here just about every tool shop sells tamperproof Torx bits (and tamperproof Allen, tri-wing, Torq, etc). The one that's hard to get is the System Zero. This looks like an inverse torx (The screw head is male, with slots round the outside, the driver is female), but it's designed so that nothing but the right tool will get it out (the sides of the screwhead taper slightly so that you can't grab it with pliers or a Mole Wrench (self-locking wrench), for example). Yes, I have a set of those tools -- one of my EPROM programmer [1] is assembled with them, for what reason %deity only knows. [1] A thing called a Ferret. It's a combined EPROM programmer, breakout box, RS232 / current loop / centronics converter, Z80 computer, strip printer, etc in a portable case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 19:04:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040824230717.01cb2da0@slave> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 24, 4 11:11:59 pm Message-ID: > I have a bunch of them, although they're not NIB. I also have some PC1360s, I still have my PC1500 complete with printer/plotter, RS232 interface _and Technical Manual_ :-), although personally I prefer the HP71 (and yes, I do haev the complete IDS with schematics and ROM source code, along with most of the HPIL prripherals, ROM modules, etc). One day I must get a Sharp PC1350 to go with the manuals I have for it (3 manuals, User/programming, Technical Reference, and Service. The last I suspect is not common). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 19:08:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040824153757.K87479@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 24, 4 03:47:31 pm Message-ID: > (Someday I'll complete my set of Whitworth tools) Complete them? You mean _all_ sizes? I am not sure what the smallest BSW size it, but there's certainly a 1/8". There is also 5/32", well known to every UK boy at one time -- it was the screw used in the Meccano sets. At the top end, I've seen 1+1/2" BSW (used for the hub bearing nut on some British rear axles), and I am pretty sure it goes well beyond that! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 19:11:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040824165523.52f476de.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 24, 4 04:55:23 pm Message-ID: > All the old Compaq machines used Torx screws. I know, because one of > the first 'upgrades' I used to do on Compaq boxes I intended to use for > anything was to upgrade (downgrade?) all the screws to phillips. I'vr never had a Torx screw that I can't undo with the right tool, but I've had far too many Phillips/Pozidriv that I can't shift other than drilling them out (the most recent one held the Logic 1 PCB in an HP87, and I didn't want to damage either the case or the PCB...). Therefroe I fail to see how replacing Torx with Phillips could ever be an upgrade... -tony From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 20:12:49 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Following getting scrapped tomorrow Message-ID: <20040825011249.19869.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> Unless anyone is willing to save them (Massachusetts). Corona Data Systems MT14KS monitor Taxan 630U 12" monitor Leading Edge DR-1240 monitor Okidata microline 292 printer Okidata microline u84 printer Data Impact Products D-92 Dot Matrix printer I can't speak as to the working status of any of these. They are in the storage shed I am cleaning out and looked to be a little more interesting than the mounds of generic PC schlock I'm plowing through. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Aug 24 20:15:48 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Data Recovery? In-Reply-To: References: <20040824010144.GA4897@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040825011548.GB27907@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 09:05:14AM -0500, JP Hindin wrote: > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 05:26:21PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > So... before I proceed, I was curious who on the list has used > > > > professional data recovery services, and who does a good job at a good > > > > price. I've already written to a company in N.Z. that has a base rate of > > > > under $300 NZ + recovery media (DVD-R, CD-R, blank drive...) > > > If you can get 80GB of data recovered for NZ$300 + media then you are > > > stoked. I'd send hard drives from here in the US for that price. > > Oops... misquoted price... $360 NZ + media... still... > > -ethan > > Which chaps are you using in the Motherland? > There was a guy (A single person outfit) in Palmerston North who fixed my > bosses harddisk back in 2000. Alan Peacock at Peacock Technologies? Peacock Technologies Ltd. P O Box 1759, Palmerston North, New Zealand Phone +64-6-354-1025, Fax. +64-6-354-1027 Data recovery from disks, Media conversions Computer forensic investigation and reporting WWW Site home page: http://www.ptech.co.nz -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Aug-2004 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.4 F (-66.4 C) Windchill -127.1 F (-88.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.2 kts Grid 084 Barometer 675.4 mb (10800. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 20:39:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Shirker wrote: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Philip, I believe I *might* have one of these terminals new in the box. > > I'll check later today and if so I'll extract the manual and get it to Al > > for scanning. > > Hi Sellam, > > 'twas me that sold it to Phil, and I have lots more if anyone else in the > UK wants one and is prepared to either a) pick it up or b) pay for > postage. All have amber CRTs. I also have around a cubic metre or so of > the "spares" keyboards Phil mentions for these. What I have is actually the Liberty Freedom 100. And according to the manuals I found inside, it may well be a re-badged AT&T Dataspeed 4425. Can anyone confirm this? At any rate, I have the Dataspeed 4425 User's Guide and Pocket Reference Guide. They may well be helpful for the Freedom One Plus. If you can confirm this then I'll try to get the manuals to Al. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 20:40:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Sellam Wrote: > >>> > >>> I'll go around kicking dents in stuff you own for $5 per > >>> dent, but there's no guarantees I'll ever be famous :) > >>> > > Guess you will have to settle for being infamous.... I'm partial to being controversial by nature. Normal people bore me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 24 21:03:09 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Many old laptops needed ($$$) References: Message-ID: <011601c48a47$abde4c00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > They do not need to be in functional condition, nor do they even > need to look pretty, but the screen should be intact (i.e. not missing, > no breakage). Otherwise, missing parts (keys, drives, batteries, > etc.) is fine. Perfect. Try these guys. http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=advancedr ecoverynorth They're trying to unload about two dozen laptops right now. Send them a note, an "informal RFQ". I've deal with them, only as a buyer. I even bought two of their elCheapo laptops. They happened to work. John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 24 22:05:08 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Toshiba 3200 questions (wireless?) Message-ID: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Finally really digging into my toshiba 3200 and have a few questions maybe others know: 1) Even after adjusting the contrast & brightness knobs on the side, I can't get a black background. The background is decidedly orange-ish still. It's been over 20 years since I used a plasma screen. Is this normal, or is my screen possibly challenged? 2) I want this thing to work on my home wireless network. I'm assuming there are no ISA wireless cards, especially with DOS drivers. So I was thinking Xircom pocket ethernet adapter and a wireless bridge. Anyone have any better ideas? Thanks for any advice! Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 24 23:09:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Toshiba Dynabook or Sharp Moebius laptops? ($$$) Message-ID: Has anyone got any models of the Toshiba Dynabook or Sharp Moebius? These were models that were not generally sold within the US. This is for the same project I referenced before, so I'm interested in acquiring certain models. Please contact me directly if you have any. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Aug 24 23:24:23 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive References: <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01c48a5b$66b6a780$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" > Years ago, I owned a data cassette drive made by a > company called National Multiplex, presumably long > defunct. It was obviously a modified audio cassette > recorder, but in which the internal electronics had > been completely replaced. Unlike the prevailing > standard for cassette-based data storage on micros > in that day, this drive used saturation recording > (NRZI, I believe) instead of a modulated audio > carrier. I wonder if it is functionally comparable to some Philips cassette drives I have. I've been looking for info on the drives, but as yet to no avail. The onlythings I can remember, is that they used serial I/O, with 6V logic. There are two versions; one where the cassette is pushed in, much like a 3.5" floppy, and one where the cassette is mounted just like the old Exabytes 8200's. I have two or three drives, but all rubber bands have dissolved. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19-08-2004 From whdawson at localisps.net Tue Aug 24 23:23:30 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive In-Reply-To: <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Years ago, I owned a data cassette drive made by a > company called National Multiplex, presumably long > defunct. It was obviously a modified audio cassette > recorder, but in which the internal electronics had > been completely replaced. Unlike the prevailing > standard for cassette-based data storage on micros > in that day, this drive used saturation recording > (NRZI, I believe) instead of a modulated audio carrier. > It was a very functional replacement for a paper tape > reader/punch, and ran up to 9600 bps using hi-fi grade > audio tapes. > > I would be interested in locating one of these beasts > to replicate the setup I had on my IMSAI before I sold > the drive years ago. The drive came with schematics, > and as far as I remember, the circuitry was rather > simple -- a couple of op amps and a few gates. > Alternately, if I can locate a copy of the drawings, > I may attempt to reproduce the design using a > contemporary audio cassette mechanism. > > Has anyone ever seen one of these? > > --Bill > Yes, I still have the one I used with my SWTPC 6800, along with the supplied documentation. The unit is just a modified portable cassette player. National Multiplex gutted the usual cassette player-recorder circuitry and installed their circuit board. They also increased the tape drive speed (by changing the diameter of the drive motor pulley, IIRC). There were several models, but they were all called Computer Aid. The square black plastic model CCA-7 was the most popular and are the ones I have. This model has the level meter on it. I found and purchased another on eBay several years ago, so they're still out there. Another model is the rectangular silver Computer Aid model DC-3. If I come across my documentation for it (I have a good idea where it is, I just don't have the time to look for it), I'll scan it and send you the url. It'll be on swtpc.com somewhere. Bill From grooveomatic at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 00:11:09 2004 From: grooveomatic at gmail.com (Andrew Berg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Toshiba 3200 questions (wireless?) In-Reply-To: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Kindly Jay, For what it is worth, in the beginning, there were a pretty good number of wireless ISA cards - much of the time, IIRC, they were essentially PCMCIA<-->ISA bridge type things. It does appear that some of the ISA Aironet (ISA4800 and maybe the 4500?) cards have DOS driver support. (http://www.aironet.lv/support.htm and http://www.aironet.lv/products.htm) The only listed requrement is a 16-bit ISA slot. I'm just not quite sure whether the packet driver wants a 386 to install / run. There also are some Orinoco PCMCIA cards with DOS support. They could be used with an ISA<-->PCMCIA bridge. Alas, though, I don't know if that would be any closer to working with a 286. Anywho, hope this helps a small bit. Have a good one! :) Andy On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:05:08 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Finally really digging into my toshiba 3200 and have a few questions maybe > others know: > > 1) Even after adjusting the contrast & brightness knobs on the side, I can't > get a black background. The background is decidedly orange-ish still. It's > been over 20 years since I used a plasma screen. Is this normal, or is my > screen possibly challenged? > > 2) I want this thing to work on my home wireless network. I'm assuming there > are no ISA wireless cards, especially with DOS drivers. So I was thinking > Xircom pocket ethernet adapter and a wireless bridge. Anyone have any better > ideas? > > Thanks for any advice! > > Jay West > > From adamg at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 18:09:10 2004 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: trade my Amiga 1080 for your Amiga 1080 Message-ID: <20040824230909.GA97274@silme.pair.com> I have a Commodore 1080 monitor (Amiga branded, non-stereo version) and the original cardboard box. The box and monitor have matching serial number stickers. I've saved the box for a while for completeness's sake, but now I want to get rid of it. Maybe someone has a loose 1080 they want to trade for a "1080 with original packaging"? The monitor was working the last time I tried it, and I will test it again if anyone is interested. The front panel hinge is intact. The box is a little scuffed/torn but not ripped to shreds. There is a noticeable tear along one side. I do not have any documentation, cables, styrofoam, bags, etc. In trade I will accept a working Commodore/Amiga 1080/1084/1902/S/whatever. I am in the Los Angeles area and am willing to deliver/pick up within a reasonable radius. I'm willing to ship, but I'll be slow and you'll have to pay shipping. OK, so it's a long shot, but is anyone interested? -- Adam From genemc41 at cox.net Tue Aug 24 23:01:17 2004 From: genemc41 at cox.net (Gene McMullin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: AppleTalk card for PC Message-ID: <000601c48a58$2c777d40$2201a8c0@pv.oc.cox.net> I have been looking for a card like this for 3 years. I would like to buy it, if it is still available. My Name is Gene Mc Mullin I live in the USA My EMail is genemc41@cox.net Please reply. Thank you......Gene From jimmydevice at verizon.net Wed Aug 25 01:20:58 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Toshiba 3200 questions (wireless?) In-Reply-To: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <412C2FCA.9000605@verizon.net> Jay West wrote: >Finally really digging into my toshiba 3200 and have a few questions maybe >others know: > >1) Even after adjusting the contrast & brightness knobs on the side, I can't >get a black background. The background is decidedly orange-ish still. It's >been over 20 years since I used a plasma screen. Is this normal, or is my >screen possibly challenged? > >2) I want this thing to work on my home wireless network. I'm assuming there >are no ISA wireless cards, especially with DOS drivers. So I was thinking >Xircom pocket ethernet adapter and a wireless bridge. Anyone have any better >ideas? > >Thanks for any advice! > >Jay West > > > > Jay, I have a number of compaq portible 3's, all have a rather bright neon orange glow. I used a new one back in the early 90's, and it was the same. Sorry, No black unless it's turned off. I don't know about your toshiiba, but I suspect the same effect. Jim Davis. From dave at naffnet.org.uk Wed Aug 25 01:28:31 2004 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <412C318F.5010407@naffnet.org.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: [ ... deleted... ] > > As I understand it, "peanut butter" is solely a North-American > delicacy... the closest thing I'd heart of in the UK would be Vegemite > (or maybe marmite), but IIRC that's made from brewers yeast, is it not? We have peanut butter here in Blighty, but Vegemite is Oz. so it's throw away the maybe, it's Marmite all the way! > > Nutella would be similar as well, if you mixed peanut butter with > chocolate before canning... Hmmm... Time to see where I can order > some; haven't had any in *ages*... The nuts in Nutella are hazelnuts, IIRC. Still, mustn't go of Topic (possibly for older British readers only). [ ...deleted... ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 25 01:23:58 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) References: Message-ID: <412C307E.4090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Shirker wrote: > I also have your LA120 ribbons, Fred. *prods Fred again* > > So, if you can get them scanned that'd be great. CONFUSED here. How the heck do you scan a printer ribbon? :-) From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Aug 25 02:36:05 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <003d01c48a76$3751d3a0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 1:11 AM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > As I understand it, "peanut butter" is solely a North-American delicacy... > the closest thing I'd heart of in the UK would be Vegemite (or maybe > marmite), but IIRC that's made from brewers yeast, is it not? > My wife buys "whole earth" brand original crunchy peanut butter - with no added sugar , over here. It must have some aspect of "healthy eating" therefore. Being "crunchy" , it probably has some abrasive properties. Firm is based in London. Geoff. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 25 02:45:33 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <003d01c48a76$3751d3a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > My wife buys "whole earth" brand original crunchy peanut butter - with no > added sugar , over here. > It must have some aspect of "healthy eating" therefore. > Being "crunchy" , it probably has some abrasive properties. > Firm is based in London. Do they even shell the peanuts, or just toss the whole thing in the grinder? > Geoff. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 25 03:07:48 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > ["Jif" the cleaner vs "Jif" the peanut butter] > As I understand it, "peanut butter" is solely a North-American > delicacy... the closest thing I'd heart of in the UK would be > Vegemite (or maybe marmite), but IIRC that's made from brewers yeast, > is it not? I spent the second half of 2002 in Norway (Troms?, in case anyone cares). I found myself missing peanut butter. I found there was a substance sold there as peanut butter, and it did bear a detectible resemblance to peanut butter - in fact, it was more or less identical to the homogenized peanut puree, doped to within an inch of its life with emulsifiers and preservatives and such until it requires a discerning tongue to detect the peanuts in its ancestry, that is sold in the cheaper and lower-class stores in North America. I did not, alas, find anything like real peanut butter (which to me means "ground-up peanuts", preferably ground up at the time and place of sale - while a bit of salt is an acceptable adulteration, I draw the line at anything further). I was told that the Norwegian appetite for peanut butter is almost entirely driven by the curiosity which TV depictions of peanut butter induce in Norwegians who inflict North American TV on themselves, and that after a few brief experiments, practically everyone abandons it. And, to be honest, given the substance that is presented to them under the name of peanut butter, I really can't blame them. To what extent this sorry state of affairs is representative of Europe at large, I am not competent to say. (Indeed, from personal experience I cannot speak to more than Troms?, though what I was told does seem to indicate it's representative of Norway.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Wed Aug 25 03:33:35 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 Need I say more? Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Wed Aug 25 03:33:35 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 Need I say more? Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Aug 25 03:41:03 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Toshiba 3200 questions (wireless?) Message-ID: <200408250841.i7P8f3XS015252@queen.cs.drexel.edu> "Jay West" wrote: > I'm assuming there are no ISA wireless cards, especially with DOS drivers. Actually I have in front of me an ISA card that accepts a PCMCIA Lucent wireless card. I have no clue as to whether you can get DOS (packet) drivers for that card, but the card *is* supported under Linux/*BSD Best Regards **vp From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Aug 25 05:07:13 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <412BD4BB.4040900@gifford.co.uk> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040825060649.03389c70@192.168.0.1> At 07:52 PM 8/24/2004, you wrote: >OK, this is what we mean by Jif (or Cif as it's now known): > > http://www.unilever.co.uk/ourbrands/brand_cif.html > http://www.unilever.com/brands/hpc/cif.asp Says it's good for mouuses too, bathroom mouuses anyway. Didn't know you all you used computers in the can over there. No mention of carthridges though. Ed South Carolina From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 25 05:25:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093429549.14396.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 23:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the > > impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain > > security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full > > set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier. > > Over here just about every tool shop sells tamperproof Torx bits (and > tamperproof Allen, tri-wing, Torq, etc). The one that's hard to get is > the System Zero. Hmm, I have a feeling my Tektronix used those. It was just possible to grab them with pliers because of the washer behind them all. Needless to say they got replaced with something more useful, as I generally do with all oddball security screws - no sense in making it hard for myself or someone else to take a apart at a later date! :) cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 25 05:29:58 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1093429797.14396.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 00:11, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Global presence > > Increasingly the name Cif is replacing regional names like Jif, providing a > platform from which Cif can become a truly global brand. Cif is now sold in > 45 countries, with Asia the fastest-growing region and India its biggest > market. Grr! I hate crap like that. I don't give a toss if it's a global brand or not; if people are used to a local name then leave well alone! What they presumably mean is "we're now able to make our product in some 3rd World sweatshop and ship it *anywhere*" Same happened with Marathon and Opal Fruits :-( > As I understand it, "peanut butter" is solely a North-American delicacy... Well we get it over here, but it's bloody disgusting (or at least I don't like the stuff :-) cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 25 05:31:42 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040824171805.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <20040824171805.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1093429902.14396.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 00:20, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > If they're truly going global and looking to market here in the USA, "Jif" > > the cleaner would certainly clash with "Jif" the peanut butter. > > In terms of trademark? > Or simply a bad mix of flavors? I suppose it'd clean your insides out whilst having nutritional value... From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 25 05:58:28 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: Message-ID: <003401c48a92$741db9e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > The problem is new furniture has to look 100% new, while something 200+ > > > years old has to look vintage (some signs of normal ageing). While some rich > > > person would love to have a piece of furniture that Napoleon might have > > > scuffed with his boot (a good story helps) they don't want a new table they > > > spent tons of money on to get dinged by the movers (no interesting story > > > there). > > > > So,... > > the damage that you do reduces the value, UNTIL you become famous. > > I'll go around kicking dents in stuff you own for $5 per dent, but there's > no guarantees I'll ever be famous :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I can see people lining up with landmines and a crisp $5 in their hands... just kidding. Anything a person used to become famous is usually what becomes collectable. An example would be the weapon Oswald supposedly killed JFK with in Texas, or the guitar a musician used to record his greatest song. If you ever became world famous for your computing collection then any part of that collection would be worth a little more IF it can be traced to you by serial number etc. In the coin world quite a bit of coins are known for the collectors that used to own the rarities. So Sellam if you end up famous I don't think the coffee table you kick over when you are pissed would be worth anymore then $5 at a garage sale. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Aug 25 04:51:12 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com><200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <009901c48a92$afd13c00$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wickens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > > Need I say more? > > Mark. > > -- > Mark Wickens > Rhodium Consulting Ltd WD40 is also very good for putting a nice black sheen on your slate mantelpiece/grate - if you've got one . Geoff. From KParker at workcover.com Wed Aug 25 01:16:49 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Drive alignment Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7A59@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Thanks Tony - I have swabbed it with Isopropyl alcohol - I assume that's the same thing. They're a real bugger as you have to pull the drives out to get to the heads because the things are so big. I figured an alignment disk was needed but was fishing a bit too as I suspect an 8" one is hard to find. Another theory I had was that I figured that Drive 0 has probably had a lot more use so I might try swapping them around if I can sort out the jumpers (if they have any) and see if I can get it to boot. +++++++++++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 e: webmaster@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com +++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Wednesday, 25 August 2004 9:08 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Drive alignment > > I have a TRS80 Model 12 that's been upgraded to a 16B (with two 8" > slim-line floppies). I am trying to copy some discs but not having much > joy. > > One theroy is the media is cactus. > > The other theory is that following some reading about these machines, > because of the size of the drives they tended to get out of alignment > regularly. How do I check alignment on the old classics. Take a known-good blank 8" disk and format it on one of your drives. If you can then read/write to it in that drive without problems, then the only thing that could be wrong with the drive is the alignment. If it fails, then you have other problems with the drive. To check the alignment properly, you need a CE (Catseye) disk and a 'scope. Basically the disk has a special patern recorded on it (this cannot be copied using a normal drive, BTW) and you look at the outputs of the read amplifier with a the 'scope. You see a pattern of 2 lobes on the 'scope screen -- if they're the same height the head is alighed, if one is larger than the other it's offset from the correct position. It's not hard to do, but the Catseye disk is expensive (I am still looking for the 8" and 3" ones, BTW...). My experience suggests that head radial alignment is not normally a problem unless you've replaced parts of the drive. More likely is a dirty head (you have cleaned it, right? With a cotton bud dipped in propan-2-ol, not one of those useless cleaning disks), a worn-out head, other mechnaicl problems, or an electronic failure. -tony ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 25 03:59:14 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1248 In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040824230717.01cb2da0@slave> from "Adrian Vickers"at Aug 24, 4 11:11:59 pm Message-ID: <51412.217.196.231.101.1093424354.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I still have my PC1500 complete with printer/plotter, RS232 interface > _and Technical Manual_ :-), although personally I prefer the HP71 (and > yes, I do haev the complete IDS with schematics and ROM source code, > along with most of the HPIL prripherals, ROM modules, etc). > > One day I must get a Sharp PC1350 to go with the manuals I have for it (3 > manuals, User/programming, Technical Reference, and Service. The last I > suspect is not common). Why does that not surprise me at all :o) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cb at mythtech.net Wed Aug 25 08:42:21 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Mac SE 800k boot disks Message-ID: >I don't know if it would work at all in your vintage of Mac SE, but I >have piles and piles of the Macintosh high density 'super drive' floppy >disk drives from a lot of different ages of Macs. Can someone chime in >on wether your SE could be upgraded to use one just by swapping the >drive? If so, you can have one or several for the cost of postage. No, you can't just swap the drive. The FDHD or SuperDrive requires newer ROMs. You would have to swap the logic board as well. -chris From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 25 08:56:00 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? Message-ID: <012601c48aab$409d2e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I've been searching the net for DOS based electronics software, and I'm coming up pretty dry. Was hoping someone had suggestions with all the electronics folks here. 1) Looking for a dos based databook application, primarily for 74xx series and such. Something that will give me quick access to pinouts, data sheet info, etc. I did find a promising dos app called ICID, but alas, when it goes to display pinout info it just blanks the screen on my Toshiba 3200 (only on the pinout page, the rest of the app displays fine). 2) Also need a DOS based semiconductor cross reference guide. I've found a few out there that are free, but they are all windows based. 3) Lastly, looking for a program that will collect data from and control my 1631 logic analyser via HPIB. I can't find anything on this. 4) Any other handy dos programs for the bench. Please help, I can't stand the thought of a Windows machine being on the bench next to me vintage gear :> Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Wed Aug 25 08:04:48 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: Toshiba 3200 questions (wireless?) In-Reply-To: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20040826000448.01112438@pop-server> At 10:05 PM 8/24/04 -0500, you wrote: >Finally really digging into my toshiba 3200 and have a few questions maybe >others know: > >1) Even after adjusting the contrast & brightness knobs on the side, I can't >get a black background. The background is decidedly orange-ish still. It's >been over 20 years since I used a plasma screen. Is this normal, or is my >screen possibly challenged? It's normal, I've never seen a plasma display that has a truly black background (at least not among the panels used in old computers, I've haven't paid much attention to plasma TVs, much rather have a decent CRT). I've got several Compaq portable 3s and 386s and a couple of Toshibas. >From memory the Compaq Portable 3, 386 and the Toshibas 3200 use the exact same Panasonic panel. If you install windows 3.x on it use the Olivetti display driver to get a 640x400 display. From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Aug 25 09:11:55 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:29 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: <012601c48aab$409d2e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <012601c48aab$409d2e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Jay, I have a couple of old pacakges on early CDROM that I need to dig up - also, the Simtel mirrors have a ton of this type of software, still being sold today (sold as in 'pay for the media') and still very much meant for DOS. Hell, even the PIC programming and compilers that came with my programmer was mainly for DOS, though someone had, rather inexpertly, ported it to the Windows world.... Contact me off-list and we'll arrange Logistics. Cheers John From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 25 09:24:16 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040824230717.01cb2da0@slave> References: Message-ID: <412CBD30.18776.5243E698@localhost> Am 24 Aug 2004 23:11 meinte Adrian Vickers: > At 22:19 23/08/2004, you wrote: > >Had a mail from someone who has 2 of these 'boxed in new condition'. They're > >pretty early BASIC calculators so they must be of interest to someone; he'd > >like to know how much they're worth to collectors - it's the first time > >someone's mailed me who doesn't want to stick things on ebay! > I have a bunch of them, although they're not NIB. I also have some PC1360s, > which are cooler IMHO. Personaly I prefer the 125x Series, the ancessor of all of the 8Bit 12xx and 13xx Machines. The 13xx are just to big, without any real advantage, but the big drawback that you could no longer use the CE-125 docking station (cassette, printer, additional baterie and serial). Also, IIRC, the display was again smaler (16 instead of 24 characters) Still, the 126x with the two 2x24 character Display is the most usefull. Of course, the 1500 is a great machine, but quite to bulky. Insead I prefered the Panasonic HHC - about the same size as the 1500, but a straight, plain 6502 computer! > Also, somewhere, I have a super-rarity - a piece of > software called "Transfile PC" which Not so rare. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 25 09:40:07 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Spelling (was): Help with question about web page access In-Reply-To: References: <06D1BFD4-F604-11D8-8B80-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <412CC0E7.28579.525268B4@localhost> Am 24 Aug 2004 16:14 meinte John Lawson: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > carthridge > > Isn't that a town in indiana? > People from a Biblical place. > Carthraginians > ouch! No, not realy, beeing European gives the advantage to learn in school abut modern history (aka less than 2500 years ago). Carthridge comes from Carthago, an ancient greek colony (like Rome) who happened to form a quite formidable empire in Northern Africa, the Middle East and Spain - well, the small mediterean wasn't big enough for two, so they had some little 'paece missions' with Rome and vice versa. After Rome succeded in raiding Cathago it became Carthride (short form for Carthago has been raided). Also, most notable, it's also the orgin for the modern time word of Chargo ... 'cause that's what they called all the valuables the romans took from Carthrige. *G* See, knowing your history is a plus, even in todays World. Gruss H. Ceterum censeo Microsoftem esse delendam From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 25 03:27:26 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Resurrecting an early 80s SGI In-Reply-To: <446467945.20040824205118@g-lenerz.de> References: <446467945.20040824205118@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20040825102726.02981f93.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:51:18 +0200 Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > I'd like to get it up and running again but I can't get any of the > backups back on a "fresh" ESDI drive (the original died). According > to the Old IRIS FAQ the drive is supported. As far as I can see it > is also detected but the process that should restore the > installation back to harddisk dies quite early in the copy stage. Did you low-level format the drive? Bad blocks? AFAIK each ESDI controller does its own bad block management. So you need to re-low-level format an ESDI drive if you move it to an other controler to get a valid bad block list. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 09:56:44 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: References: <012601c48aab$409d2e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <012601c48aab$409d2e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825104856.00af8608@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: > Jay, I have a couple of old pacakges on early CDROM that I need to dig > up - also, the Simtel mirrors have a ton of this type of software, still > being sold today (sold as in 'pay for the media') and still very much > meant for DOS. > > Hell, even the PIC programming and compilers that came with my > programmer was mainly for DOS, though someone had, rather inexpertly, > ported it to the Windows world.... Otay, I'll ask this again now that Jay's gotten everyone's attention: Is there any good older software (Dos works, Linux works, but Winders is ok too, if that's all there is) for making the JEDEC files for older PALs/GALs/PEELs? The free software from Atmel & Lattice are geared around the newer FPGAs that you could build a 6809 out of, and are correspondingly difficult to comprehend for simpler matters. All I want to do is design a couple of PEELs for address decoding for a couple projects on my CoCos and Model 200... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Aug 25 10:10:41 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825104856.00af8608@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > > Otay, I'll ask this again now that Jay's gotten everyone's attention: > > Is there any good older software (Dos works, Linux works, but Winders is ok > too, if that's all there is) for making the JEDEC files for older > PALs/GALs/PEELs? > > The free software from Atmel & Lattice are geared around the newer FPGAs > that you could build a 6809 out of, and are correspondingly difficult to > comprehend for simpler matters. All I want to do is design a couple of > PEELs for address decoding for a couple projects on my CoCos and Model 200... OPAL (from Nat Semi) is a decent GAL compiler for DOS. Its probably a PALASM decendent. > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" > sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" > zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" > | JC == Jeremy Christian > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 25 10:18:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? References: <012601c48aab$409d2e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <16684.44480.431064.70220@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> I've been searching the net for DOS based electronics software, Jay> and I'm coming up pretty dry. Was hoping someone had suggestions Jay> with all the electronics folks here. There are the older versions of Eagle CAD, a pretty nice schematic capture and PCB layout program. I have used 2.6 for years; it's DOS based. Newer versions run on Windows and Linux, including free ones that are fairly limited but still useful.; paul From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 25 10:25:08 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:10:41 PDT." Message-ID: <200408251525.i7PFP8Pv000450@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > >OPAL (from Nat Semi) is a decent GAL compiler for DOS. Its probably a PALASM >decendent. I'll probably regret asking this, but wasn't PALASM source available in FORTRAN long ago? (or did I make that up?) ok, wait - google is my friend - it figures Eric would have a page on this :-) http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/mmi/palasm/ (believe it or not some of my customers still use 16L8's, despite my constant complaining) and, there's even a program there to convert jedec back to equations - woo hoo! thanks Eric! -brad From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 10:47:03 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825104856.00af8608@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825114400.03b97338@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Peter C. Wallace may have mentioned these words: >[snippety] > >OPAL (from Nat Semi) is a decent GAL compiler for DOS. Its probably a PALASM >decendent. Hrm. It seems natsemi is no longer in the PAL/GAL bidniz and is prodding everyone over to Xilinx. As such, their OPAL or any other flavor of palasm is not available on their website any longer. Hrmph. :-( Would you just happen to have a local copy of the software? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 25 11:07:18 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825114400.03b97338@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >>> Hrm. It seems natsemi is no longer in the PAL/GAL bidniz >>> and is prodding everyone over to Xilinx. As such, their >>> OPAL or any other flavor of palasm is not available on >>> their website any longer. I previously got a version from... http://www.engr.uky.edu/~melham01/ee481/software.htm The link is valid, but I have not gone further....good luck. >>> From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Aug 25 11:14:49 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Hrm. It seems natsemi is no longer in the PAL/GAL bidniz > >>> and is prodding everyone over to Xilinx. As such, their > >>> OPAL or any other flavor of palasm is not available on > >>> their website any longer. > > I previously got a version from... > http://www.engr.uky.edu/~melham01/ee481/software.htm > > The link is valid, but I have not gone further....good luck. > >>> > And yes, I have it if that link does not work... Peter Wallace From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 25 11:24:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <1093429797.14396.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Well we get it over here, but it's bloody disgusting (or at least I > don't like the stuff :-) Hint: it goes most terrifically with jam. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 11:37:20 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825123624.0497f0f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Peter C. Wallace may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > >>> Hrm. It seems natsemi is no longer in the PAL/GAL bidniz > > >>> and is prodding everyone over to Xilinx. As such, their > > >>> OPAL or any other flavor of palasm is not available on > > >>> their website any longer. > > > > I previously got a version from... > > http://www.engr.uky.edu/~melham01/ee481/software.htm > > > > The link is valid, but I have not gone further....good luck. On a lark, I googled for palasm just in case "it was out there" and found that link myself... ... now for a "GALs for Dummies" link... hehehe ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From Thilo.Schmidt at gmx.de Wed Aug 25 11:17:48 2004 From: Thilo.Schmidt at gmx.de (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825104856.00af8608@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <30108.1093450668@www46.gmx.net> [...] > Otay, I'll ask this again now that Jay's gotten everyone's attention: > > Is there any good older software (Dos works, Linux works, but Winders is > ok > too, if that's all there is) for making the JEDEC files for older > PALs/GALs/PEELs? > > The free software from Atmel & Lattice are geared around the newer FPGAs > that you could build a 6809 out of, and are correspondingly difficult to > comprehend for simpler matters. All I want to do is design a couple of > PEELs for address decoding for a couple projects on my CoCos and Model > 200... easyABEL There was a free (or maybe shareware) version of it, so it should be easy to find... ...found it: :-) http://boss.iele.polsl.gliwice.pl/public/programowanie/EasyAbel/ bye Thilo -- NEU: Bis zu 10 GB Speicher für e-mails & Dateien! 1 GB bereits bei GMX FreeMail http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Aug 25 12:14:19 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (swtpc6800@comcast.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? (PLDs) Message-ID: <082520041714.29412.412CC8EB00055510000072E422007507840603970A04040108@comcast.net> I was on the original team that developed ABEL, the Data I/O PLD language. I co-authored a book "Digital Design using ABEL" in 1994 that came with a special copy of ABEL version 5.0. I have this book in electronic form. I also have versions of ABEL from 1.0 to 5.0 that run without a dongal. These are DOS versions. I have a mag tape of ABEL 1.0 for VMS (I think.) Xilinx owns the current ABEL software and Prentice Hall owns the copyright on the book. However I will post a copy of my book and a full version of ABEL 5.0 on the web somewhere. I will make the link available on request. ------------------------------- Michael Holley swtpc6800@comcast.net www.swtpc.com ------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 25 12:06:46 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <41262DB7.30320.38A3738E@localhost> References: <63FDE723-F2B6-11D8-9A7C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040825100533.02ba6c30@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 04:58 PM 8/20/04 +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >Am 20 Aug 2004 7:52 meinte Gene Buckle: > > > Thanks, but I don't have the required long torx screwdriver and case > > > cracker > > > That reminds me - where can I find such a tool? I've got a pair of dead > > Macs I'd like to open up and try to repair. > >Personaly I suggests the swiss army knife with the extended toolste. >beats every leatherman, has exchangeable bits and fits still in (my) >pocket :) > >http://www.victorinox.de/newsite/de/produkte/produktdetails//1-7725-T/funktionen.htm Its not long enough, but here it is for $40. Someplace else had a real steal on them, but seems like the sale is over. http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFRAME&PROD_ID=683154 From tyger69 at chartermi.net Wed Aug 25 12:28:35 2004 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Drive alignment Message-ID: <002501c48ac8$f43c47a0$0300a8c0@cablemodem> What I've seen (numerous times) with those double-sided 8" drives is when the drives are shipped/moved without the proper head protecting cardboard inserts, the heads themselves tend to slam against each other every time the truck hits a bump. This causes the heads, which are made of glass, to chip, crack and break. In the most extreme cases, the broken head will actually cut a groove in the media. Look for holes or grooves in your floppies. --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 25 12:51:04 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Drive alignment Message-ID: <200408251751.KAA10396@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Terry Yager" > >What I've seen (numerous times) with those double-sided 8" drives is when the drives are shipped/moved without the proper head protecting cardboard inserts, the heads themselves tend to slam against each other every time the truck hits a bump. This causes the heads, which are made of glass, to chip, crack and break. In the most extreme cases, the broken head will actually cut a groove in the media. Look for holes or grooves in your floppies. > >--T > >Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary > Hi The other thing is, if this is a single sided disk, the pressure pad may have accumulation on it such that it causes the media to not set flat against the head. A little cleaning with a nail file work well on these pads. It removes deposits and flattens the surface. Just don't file it down to nothing. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 25 13:26:54 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive In-Reply-To: <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1093458413.3758.10.camel@dhcp-250222> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 17:09, William Maddox wrote: > Years ago, I owned a data cassette drive made by a > company called National Multiplex, presumably long > defunct. ... Ugh! I had one on my SWTPC, around 1975? It was the first time I got ripped off buying computer gear. For the SWTPC, it came with an EPROM with "extended commands". You ran it via "G 1234" where 1234 was some address in the EPROM. Many Nat'l Mpx commands jumped back to the MIKBUG ROM. Kludge! That was merely annoying -- the cassette drive and format was the rip off. It was just a gutted audio five-pushbutton type piece of junk. They took all the guts out, and put in basically a gate to drive the write head, and an opamp or something to read. THe worst part -- the motor had a trimpot in series with it, and that was the sole motor speed control -- and! -- tapes written at one speed adjustment could not be read at another speed! Of course I turned the pot, my fault. But just tapping it was enough. It was total crap. The 'encoding method' (sic) was just a bunch of "C" characters or something written as a header, followed by some dumb ad hoc block info, data, and a checksum. There might have been some attempt at bit sync but I long forgot. I went all through their ROM code and it was total crap (obvious to me, a two-year-experience programmer, duh). PLUS, I paid some exorbitant price for it (from a BYTE ad or something). The only good thing I'll say about this worthless piece of total crap is that it spurred me to write my own software. I got an old Pertec 7-track drive (minus formatter), and with a SWTPC parallel port card, wrote a nybble-banger controller (four data bits, a clock track, a strobe bit, plus a few tracks left over!), with all the usual filemark/tapemark stuff, high speed search, an index, loaded programs by name, and wasn't dependent on tape speed! (The first program I wrote that used interrupts too.) (I had to load the tape driver/exec via paper tape with MIKBUG!) I am very glad they went out of business, good riddance to bad rubbish. (Though today it's a different story, it's worth keeping for historical purposes, I agree.) From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Aug 25 14:05:29 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: <30108.1093450668@www46.gmx.net> Message-ID: >>> > The free software from Atmel & Lattice are geared around >>> the newer FPGAs that you could build a 6809 out of.... Has anyone actually done this? The reason I ask is I developed a bunh of code around the 6809 architecture. Some of it would be worth resurrecting IF I code get a "micro-codable" implementation with some other features...Just an idea...or maybe the dementia is surfacing.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 13:57:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <20040825115149.M8547@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Mark Wickens wrote: > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > Need I say more? REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, know that there that there are many different viscousities of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate "thickness". It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 25 13:57:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive Message-ID: <200408251857.LAA10427@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >THe worst part -- the motor had a trimpot in series with it, and that >was the sole motor speed control -- and! -- tapes written at one speed >adjustment could not be read at another speed! > >Of course I turned the pot, my fault. But just tapping it was enough. It >was total crap. > Hi Most of these motors used an internal centrifugal speed governor. These were designed to work within some span of input voltage. I would guess that the pot was to drop the voltage to be within this range. If one was to adjust the pot, there should be a range of adjustment that the speed ( with load ) was relatively constant. One would adjust the pot to be safely within this span. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 25 14:15:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? Message-ID: <200408251915.MAA10471@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Mark Wickens wrote: >> WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 >> WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 >> WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 >> Need I say more? > >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, >know that there that there are many different viscousities >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate >"thickness". > >It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting >WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. > Hi Fred My grip is finding a screw that was obviously intended for a #2 Philps but someone has buggerred it up with a #1. Not only that, the #1 driver they used is also buggered up because they have been incorrectly using it as well. Most Philps screws are actually #2 and not #1. Make sure you have a #2 in your tool box. If you have a good screw driver and you place it in a screw, and the driver feels loose, it means you are using the wrong size driver! Don't judge this by the amount of blade that isn't in the screw. The screw driver will be snug in the screw when right. Much of the blade may not be in the screw. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 14:17:34 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: References: <30108.1093450668@www46.gmx.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151229.04b7eed0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David V. Corbin may have mentioned these words: > >>> > The free software from Atmel & Lattice are geared around > >>> the newer FPGAs that you could build a 6809 out of.... > >Has anyone actually done this? The reason I ask is I developed a bunh of >code around the 6809 architecture. Some of it would be worth resurrecting IF >I code get a "micro-codable" implementation with some other features...Just >an idea...or maybe the dementia is surfacing.... Yes... Off the top of my head: http://www.inicore.com/ They made an FPGA-based 40Mhz 6809... (they say it'll do 10Mips!) Otay, memory served, but here's a page directly to the info: http://www.inicore.com/core_lib/inicpu.htm [[ I have *no* idea on cost -- just stumbled across it during a google search a couple of years ago. ]] Also, if you're looking for something "more updated" there's always the Hitachi 63C09 - it's 4 Mhz, and has more registers, a 16-bit integer multiply (with a 32-bit result) and clock for clock is faster than the 6809. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 14:20:15 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825115149.M8547@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151828.04c51bf8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, >know that there that there are many different viscousities >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate >"thickness". > >It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting >WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. Viscosity is also a large factor on environment. WD40 works great on my door hinges in my house, but I use heavy grease on automotive door hinges... Just IMHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 14:22:12 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <003d01c48a76$3751d3a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040825121725.T8547@shell.lmi.net> > > My wife buys "whole earth" brand original crunchy peanut butter - with no > > . . . Being "crunchy" , it probably has some abrasive properties. On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Do they even shell the peanuts, or just toss the whole thing in the grinder? No shells. Peanut butter is sold in two forms: "smooth/creamy/..." and "crunchy" The crunchy is usually smooth peanut butter with some chunks of peanut added back in. It's not very abrasive. Peanut shells (or better yet walnut shells) are a very useful abrasive, and are ground up for use in sand-blasting like equipment. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 14:23:51 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: <412C307E.4090409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <412C307E.4090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040825122301.B8547@shell.lmi.net> > > I also have your LA120 ribbons, Fred. *prods Fred again* > > > > So, if you can get them scanned that'd be great. > > CONFUSED here. How the heck do you scan a printer ribbon? > :-) High security installations have special procedures for disposing of used ribbons to prevent them being scanned. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 25 13:02:28 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:24:16 +0200." <412CBD30.18776.5243E698@localhost> Message-ID: <200408251802.TAA20595@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Hans Franke" said: > Personaly I prefer the 125x Series, the ancessor of all of the 8Bit > 12xx and 13xx Machines. The 13xx are just to big, without any real > advantage, but the big drawback that you could no longer use the > CE-125 docking station (cassette, printer, additional baterie and > serial). I have one of those, a 1251, docking station etc and even some paper left for the printer! I remember finding the Basic keywords for the serial port, but I don't recall coming across any info on the hardware. It was a very useful machine which saw a lot of use in work. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Aug 25 15:30:57 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive In-Reply-To: <1093458413.3758.10.camel@dhcp-250222> References: <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <20040825000947.88404.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040825161447.0315de90@192.168.0.1> At 02:26 PM 8/25/2004, you wrote: >On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 17:09, William Maddox wrote: > > Years ago, I owned a data cassette drive made by a > > company called National Multiplex, presumably long > > defunct. ... > >Ugh! I had one on my SWTPC, around 1975? It was the first time I got >ripped off buying computer gear. About that same time I found a purpose built data cassette (Philips type) drive from Braemar Computer Devices in Minnesota. The CD-400. I had to build something to read ECMA format cassette tapes from NCR data entry devices and convert them to 7 track 1/2" mag tape for a Burroughs B300 data processing shop. The tape drive was great. TTL control of motion and decoded NRZ data plus clock I/O at 800BPI. But they cost about $600 in 1976. Used the Motorola M6800 Microcomputer Systems Design Evaluation Kit to make a prototype system to read the cassettes and output to a Mohawk key to 7 track tape unit. The tape drive only had 1 reel. The tape dumped into a hopper as the operator key punched. Then it rewound. Strange machine, made a great clacking sound when it wrote the tape. Eventually wrote a cross-assembler for the 6800 in Dibol for PDP11's and made 5-6 of the machines for the companies branch offices. Ed From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Aug 25 15:40:00 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825115149.M8547@shell.lmi.net> References: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040825163914.0aad6830@192.168.0.1> At 02:57 PM 8/25/2004, you wrote: > > WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 WD40 > > Need I say more? > >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, >know that there that there are many different viscousities >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate >"thickness". > >It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting >WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. Gun people learn M1's, M14's and SLR's need grease and M16's need oil. Ed From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Aug 25 15:41:31 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825121725.T8547@shell.lmi.net> References: <412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <003d01c48a76$3751d3a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040825164051.033daea8@192.168.0.1> At 03:22 PM 8/25/2004, you wrote: >Peanut shells (or better yet walnut shells) are a very useful abrasive, >and are ground up for use in sand-blasting like equipment. Walnut shells are used in tumblers to clean brass cartridge cases before reloading also. Ed From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 25 16:19:36 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151828.04c51bf8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <003101c48ae9$396c2be0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > > >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the > >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, > >know that there that there are many different viscousities > >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate > >"thickness". > > > >It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting > >WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. > > Viscosity is also a large factor on environment. WD40 works great on my > door hinges in my house, but I use heavy grease on automotive door hinges... > > Just IMHO, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > Real mechanics read the manual that came with the machine they need to lube, and they also make sure the lube is rated for the temperature their gear will run in. Last time I checked viscosity is temperature dependent, so you might need something "thicker" in hotter climates and something "thinner" in colder ones. If you are not sure, then go ask somebody who might have a clue (well works for me anyway). For quite a few purposes around the house where something is old and stuck and just needs to get moving again (not worth the time and effort for a rebuild) WD40 works just fine. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Aug 25 16:20:26 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Semiconductor data books for sale in USA References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com><003d01c48a76$3751d3a0$0200a8c0@geoff><412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040825121725.T8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <017f01c48ae9$57bd18c0$6800a8c0@athlon1200> Tried to post this a couple of days back-didn't see it- so here we go again. Contact Marv- NOT me! DaveB, NZ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> Subject: [Test-Equipment] FS: Semi Data Books >> >> >> > *** Semiconductor Data Books -- Mostly like new. >> > Probably can't order much from these but, >> > they may be useful to service a 2nd Millennium relic >> > $8 per pound including media rate shipping *** >> > >> > Altera Data Book 1995 >> > >> > AMD >> > AM29PL141 Fuse Programmable Controller 1987 >> > Analog & Communication Products 1983 >> > Array Processing & Digital Signal Processing 1986 >> > Bipolar Microprocessor Logic & Interface 1985 >> > Bus Interface Products 1988 >> > E2Prom Am2864AE/BE 1988 >> > LCA Applications Handbook 1988 >> > Memory Products 1989/90 >> > Microcontrollers 1988 >> > MOS Microprocessors & Perhiperals 1987-1988 >> > Pal Device Handbook 1988 >> > PGA 3000 Series 1988 >> > Programmable Logic 1987 >> > >> > Anadigics >> > Communications IC Data Book 1998 >> > >> > Analog Devices >> > ADSP-2100 User's Manual 1989 >> > ADSP-2101/2102 User's Manual 1990 >> > ADSP-2101/2102 Emulator Manual 1990 >> > ADSP-21020 Users Manual 1991 >> > ASSP-21065L User's Manual 1998 >> > DSP Products Data Book 1989 >> > New Products Update Summer 1999 >> > Short Form Designer's Guide Winter 1999 >> > >> > Anaren >> > RF & Microwave Components Catalog 2001 >> > >> > Atmel >> > Nonvolatile Memory 1996 >> > >> > AT&T >> > Analog Integrated Circuits 1989 >> > Communications Devices 1988 >> > DSP16 & DSP16A Digital Signal Processor 1989 >> > DSP16-DS Digital Signal Processor Development System 1987 >> > DSP32C Digital Signal Processor June 1988 >> > DSP32C Digital Signal Processor Dec. 1988 >> > DSP32C Application Software Library 1989 >> > Microelectronic Products Selection Guide 1993 >> > >> > Avantek >> > Microwave & Millimeter Wave Amplifiers 1989 >> > >> > Burr-Brown >> > Handbook of Personal Computer Instrumentation 4th Edition >> > >> > California Micro Devices Corp. >> > Microcircuits Data Book 1989 >> > >> > Catalyst Semiconductor Data Book 1996/97 >> > >> > Dallas >> > DS5000 Soft Microcontroller 1990 >> > >> > Datel >> > DC/DC Converters 1999 >> > >> > Dynex Semiconductor >> > Power Semiconductors Product Guide 2000 >> > >> > Ferranti >> > VMOS Data Book 1981 >> > >> > Fujitsu >> > Bipolar Memory Products 1989 >> > Memories 1986-87 >> > Progammable Memory Products 1990 >> > Wireless Communication Products 1996 >> > >> > Gennum Data Book 1992 >> > >> > Harris >> > BiCMOS FCT Interface Logic 1990 >> > CMOS Digital Data Book 1986 >> > Intelligent Power ICs 1992 >> > Linear ICs for Commercial Applications 1990 >> > Power MOSFET's, IGBT's, Rectifiers, etc. 1991 >> > >> > Hitachi >> > 8 Bit Single-Chip Microcomputer Data Book 1985 >> > DRAM Data Book 1991 >> > Power Diodes 1999 >> > Wireless Communications Data Book 1995 >> > >> > Holtek >> > Remote Control Data Book 1995 >> > >> > Honeywell >> > Signal Processing Technologies 1988 >> > >> > Inmos Data Book 1987 >> > >> > Integrated Circuit Systems Short Form Catalog 1999 >> > >> > Integrated Device Technology >> > HIgh Performance Logic 1992 >> > Specialized Memories 1990/91 >> > SRAM 1991 >> > >> > Intel >> > 386 SL Microprocessor Superset Data Book 1991 >> > 386 SL 3 different booklets 1991 >> > 486 SX Microprocessor Data Book 1992 >> > CHMOS Components Handbook 1985 >> > Flash Memory (2 Book set) 1997 >> > iAPX 88 Book 1981 >> > Introduction to the iAPX 286 booklet 1982 >> > i960 CA Microprocessor Users Manual 1991 >> > i960 CA SA/SB Reference Manual 1991 >> > i960 KA/KA Programmer's Reference Manual 1991 >> > Memory Components Handbook 1986 >> > MCS-80/85 Family User's Manual 1986 >> > Microcommunications Handbook 1988 >> > PLDshell Plus/PLDasm User's Guide v3.1 1993 >> > Programmable Logic Handbook 1988 >> > Programmable Logic 1993 >> > >> > Intersil >> > Product Selection Guide 2000 >> > >> > M/A COM >> > E-Series RF Signal Processing Devices 1995 >> > RF, Microwave & mm Wave, MMIC, Hybrid & Passive Comp. 1994 >> > RF, Microwave & mm Wave, Coax Connectors, Adapters, Tools & Accy. >> >> > 1996 >> > RF, Microwave & mm Wave, Single & Multi-Function Components & >> > Subassemblies 1996 >> > >> > Microchip >> > Embedded Control Handbook V.1 1997 >> > Third Party Guide 1996/1997 >> > >> > Micron >> > DRAM 1997 >> > Flash Memory 1998 >> > Specialty DRAM 1993 >> > SRAM 1997 >> > >> > Mitsubishi >> > Audio 1982 >> > GaAs FET's 1986 >> > General Purpose IC's 1987 >> > Memories 1989 >> > Video 1982 >> > >> > Monolithic Memories >> > LSI Databook 1985 >> > >> > Mosel CMOS (Memories) Data Book 1990 >> > >> > Motorola >> > 16/32-Bit Microcomputer System Components >> > BiCMOS Logic 1990 >> > Direct Memory Access Controller (DMAC) MC68450 1986 >> > Dual Asychronous Receiver/Transmitter (DUART) MC68681 1985 >> > I960 Data Booklets (5 different) 1992-1993 >> > IBM PC/XT/AT Floppy Disk Controller Family 1992 >> > Industrial Control Unit MC14500B 1977 >> > M68HC11 Programmer's Reference Manual 1985 >> > MC68020 32-Bit Microprocessor User's Manual, 2nd edition 1985 >> > Neuron Chip Distributed Communications & Control Processors 1992 >> > Raster Memory Controller (RMC) MC68487 1986 >> > SCSI Protocol Controller (SPC) 1992 >> > X.25 Protocol Controller (XPC) MC68605 1986 >> > >> > National >> > 48 Series Microprocessors Handbook 1980 >> > Analog & Interface Products Databook w/CD ROM 1999 >> > Application Specific Analog Products 1995 >> > COP8 Development Tools 1995 >> > EEPROM Databook 1985 >> > Embedded System Processor Databook 1989 >> > FACT Advanced CMOS logic Databook 1993 >> > IDM2900 Family Microprocessor Databook 1980 >> > Linear 1975 >> > Low Voltage Databook 1992 >> > Crossvolt Low Voltage Logic Databook 1994 >> > Interface Databook 1988 >> > Interface Data Transmission 1994 >> > Mass Storage 1986 >> > Microcontroller Databook 1987 >> > Microcontrollers Databook 1988 >> > Military/Aerospace Selection Guide 1992 >> > NSC800 Microprocessor Family Databook 1985 >> > NS16000 Databook 1993 >> > Series 32000 Databook 1984 >> > Voltage Regulator Handbook 1975 >> > >> > NEC Electronics >> > 16 Bit V Series Microprocessors 1991 >> > Application Specific Standard Products 1994 >> > Display Driver IC's Data Sheet Pack 1990 >> > DSP & Speech Processor Products 1992 >> > Memory DRAM, DRAM modules, Video RAM's 1993 >> > Memory SRAM, ASM, EEPROM 1993 >> > Microcomputer Products Shortform Catalog 1991 >> > Optical Semiconductor Devices Data Sheet Pack 1991 >> > Single Chip Microcontroller Data Book 1990 >> > VLSI MOS Memory RAM/ROM & Memrory Cards 1997 >> > >> > NCR Data Book 1985 >> > >> > Oki >> > Codec/Echo Canceller Family 1997 >> > Memory 1990 >> > Microcontroller 1990 >> > Microprocessor 1989 >> > Voice Synthesis LSI 1990 >> > >> > Phillips >> > Ferrocube Soft Ferrites & Accessories 2000 >> > PSD3XX Programmable Microprocessor Peripherals 1993 >> > RF Power Transistors 1989 >> > >> > Pioneer Semiconductor >> > High Performance CMOS/BiCMOS Data Book 1993 >> > >> > Quality Semiconductor >> > FCT Logic & Clock Management 1995 >> > Quick Switch Products 1995 >> > Specialty Memory Products 1995 >> > 3 Short form guides plus Dual Port Ram book 1995/6 >> > >> > RCA >> > Advanced CMOS Logic IC's 54/74 AC & 54/74ACT Series 1987 >> > High Speed CMOS Logic IC's 54/74 HC & 54/74HCT Series 1986 >> > Power MOSFET's 1984 >> > >> > RF Micro-Devices >> > Silicon Innovations 1998 >> > 2000 Designer's Handbook w/CD ROM >> > >> > Rockwell >> > C19 Microcomputer Technical Reference Manual (Preliminary) 1990 >> > C29/C39 Microcomputer Technical Reference Manual (Preliminary) >> 1993 >> > >> > Samsung >> > Linear IC Data Book 1988 >> > >> > Sharp >> > Memory Data Book 1993 >> > >> > Siemens >> > 8-Bit Single-Chip Microcontroller Handbook 1989/90 >> > Bipolar LSI Data Manual 1984 >> > Memory Components 1994 >> > Microcontrollers, Microprocessors, Peripherals & Memory 1988/89 >> > >> > Signetics >> > FAST Data Manual 1987 >> > Microcontroller Users' Guide 1989 >> > Programmable Logic Data Manual 1987 >> > >> > Silicon Systems >> > Storage Products Data Book 1994 >> > >> > Simtek Data Book 1994 >> > >> > Sipex >> > Data Conversion Products 1995 >> > Hybrid Systems DataLinear 1988 >> > Inteface Products 1994 >> > >> > Sony >> > A/D, D/A Converters 1990 >> > Discrete Semiconductor 1992 >> > Memory 1993 >> > >> > Stanford Microdevices >> > Wireless Products Catalog 1998 >> > >> > Standard Microsystems Catalog 1986 >> > >> > Startech (An Exar Company) >> > Catalog 1996 >> > Shortform Catalog 1995 >> > >> > Telcom Semiconductor Data Book 1997 >> > >> > Telefunken >> > Diodes 1988 >> > Integrated Circuits Radio & Audio 1986 >> > Integrated Circuits for Telecommunication 1987 >> > Microwave/UHF/VHF IC's & Tuner Modules 1988 >> > Optocouplers 1987 >> > Power Transistors 1989 >> > Transistors for AF & Switching Applications 1985 >> > Transistors for RF Applications 1985 >> > >> > Texas Instruments >> > ALS/AS Logic Data Book 1986 >> > Advanced Logic & Bus Interface Logic 1991 >> > Data Transmission Circuits - Line Ciruits 1995/1996 >> > Gallium Arsenide Products / Monolithic Microwave Integrated >> Circuits >> > 1994. >> > Linear Circuits 3V Family 1994 >> > MSP58C80 Mixed Signal Processor User's Guide 1995 >> > Master Selection Guide 1986 >> > TMS370 Family Data Manual 1990 >> > TMS1000 Series Preprogammed & Standard Devices 1982 >> > TMS7000 Family Data Manual 1986 >> > TMS320C1x User's Guide 1989 >> > TMS320C2x User's Guide 1987 >> > TMS320C3x User's Guide 1990 >> > TMS320C5x User's Guide 1993 >> > TMS320C64x & TMS320C55x Technical Lit. Kit 2000 >> > TMS320C14/TMS320E14 User's Guide 1988 >> > TMS320 Family Development Support 1989 >> > TPIC6595 Power+ Logic 1992 >> > TSP50C)x/1x Speech Synthesizer Family 1994 >> > Progammable Logic Data Book 1988 >> > Progammable Logic Qualification Data 1988 >> > Gallium Arsenide Products Designer's Information 1992 >> > Operational Amplifier Selection Guide 1993 >> > Linear Products Surface Mount Availablity Guide 1994 >> > >> > Thompson (Mostek) >> > Communications Products 1987 >> > Memory Data Book 1987 >> > Microprocessors & Peripherals 1987 >> > >> > Toshiba >> > 1M DRAM, 1M VRAM 1991 >> > Bipolar IC 1989 >> > CMOS Logic TC74AC/ACT Series, TC74HC/HCT Series 1990 >> > Diode Databook 1984 >> > Microcomputer Peripheral Controller LSI's 1990 >> > Mos Memory 1986 >> > Speech Devices 1988 >> > Static Ram 1992 >> > TMP68HC05, TMP68HC11 1990 >> > >> > TriQuint >> > Wireless Communication 1997 >> > >> > TRW >> > GaAs Telecom Products 1998 >> > >> > Vitelic >> > Memory Data Catalog 1990/91 >> > >> > VTC >> > High Performance Integrated Circuits 1985 >> > >> > Western Digital >> > Components Handbook 1983 >> > Network Products Handbook 1983 >> > Storage Management Products Handbook 1986 >> > >> > Xecom Catalog 1990 >> > >> > Zilog >> > Discrete Z8 Microcontrollers 1994 >> > Infrared Remote Controllers 1993 >> > Keyboard & Mouse/Pointing Devices 1993 >> > Mass Storage Solutions 1993 >> > Serial Communication Controllers 1993 >> > High-Speed Serial Communication Controllers 1993 >> > >> > Zytrex >> > ZX54/74ACHT & ZX54/74HCTLS Logic Familes 1985 >> > >> > >> > All of the above, $8 per pound including media rate shipping >> > >> > Contact: Marv WC6W 310 649 3111 (reasonable hours Pacific >> Time >> > please) >> > or via: Marv_E_Ads@Juno.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 15:52:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Drive alignment In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7A59@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> from "Parker, Kevin" at Aug 25, 4 03:46:49 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks Tony - I have swabbed it with Isopropyl alcohol - I assume > that's the same thing. Yes. Isopropyl alcohol = isopropanol = propan-2-ol = CH_3 CHOH CH_3 [...] > Another theory I had was that I figured that Drive 0 has probably had > a lot more use so I might try swapping them around if I can sort out the > jumpers (if they have any) and see if I can get it to boot. I've never worked on the 2/12/16 series, but on the smaller TRS80s (1/3/4), the drives are selected by missing contacts on the cable (only the corerect drive select line is connected to a given drive), so all drives are jumpered identically, and whether it's drive 0 or drive 1 depends on where tyou plug it into the cable. You might also get a pinout of the 8" drive connector and trace the drive select lines from the edge connector on the drive to the jumpers. This is normally pretty simple. Oh, and don't forget that the termination resistors are fitted/enabled on the physically last drive on the cable (furthest from the controller). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 15:55:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: <412C307E.4090409@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben franchuk" at Aug 25, 4 00:23:58 am Message-ID: > > CONFUSED here. How the heck do you scan a printer ribbon? > :-) I can think of 2 reasons why you might want to 1) Put the cartridge on a scanner to send an image of it to someone so they can find the right one in their junk box (I've put parts on a photocopier before now to keep a record of their size/shape). 2) On a single-shot carbon film ribbon you could probably recover what's been printed by scanning it. It's trivial on a daisywheel, but on a multi-pass dot-matirx machine like a Sanders, the pattern on the ribbon doesn't look like the characters, but probably could be decoded with the right software. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 16:06:18 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825115149.M8547@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 25, 4 11:57:22 am Message-ID: > It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting > WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. We call it Wanton Destruction 40 round here for a very good reason. It's a mix of all sorts of viscosities of lubricant, including some waxy stuff. The problem is that the thinner oils evapourate first leaving the wax to gum things solid. You then have to do a complete strip-down and clean... I've seen the result of spaying it on the shutter mechanism of a camera -- one day I'll take it all apart and get it going again. That's what it needs.... I must keep a couple of dozen lubricants from watch oil up to about half a dozen greases (and grease and oil for plastics) here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 16:15:38 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <003101c48ae9$396c2be0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Aug 25, 4 05:19:36 pm Message-ID: > Real mechanics read the manual that came with the machine they need to lube, Correct. > and they also make sure the lube is rated for the temperature their gear > will run in. Last time I checked viscosity is temperature dependent, so you > might need something "thicker" in hotter climates and something "thinner" in > colder ones. Normally the manuals will recomend lubricants (maybe with different recomendations for warm or cool climates). If so, and they're available, you need a seriously good reason not to use them, IMHO. My Myford lathe came with a lubrication chart (some 30-odd oil points IIRC) and recomended lubricants. Myford sell the oils in sensible-sized cans (i.e. enough to last a couple of years), and they're not that expensive, so of course I use them. I also use them on similar-sized machinery and tools... > For quite a few purposes around the house where something is old and stuck > and just needs to get moving again (not worth the time and effort for a > rebuild) WD40 works just fine. WD40 is ideal for keeping rust of your garden spade, but I wouldn't use it on precision machinery! -tony From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Aug 25 16:35:49 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: Message-ID: <011d01c48aeb$85a8db00$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting > > WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. > > We call it Wanton Destruction 40 round here for a very good reason. It's > a mix of all sorts of viscosities of lubricant, including some waxy > stuff. The problem is that the thinner oils evapourate first leaving the > wax to gum things solid. You then have to do a complete strip-down and > clean... I've seen the result of spaying it on the shutter mechanism of a > camera -- one day I'll take it all apart and get it going again. That's > what it needs.... > > I must keep a couple of dozen lubricants from watch oil up to about half > a dozen greases (and grease and oil for plastics) here... > > -tony It's still very good on slate :>) Geoff. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 25 17:04:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093471452.14396.74.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 21:06, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting > > WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. > > We call it Wanton Destruction 40 round here for a very good reason. It's > a mix of all sorts of viscosities of lubricant, including some waxy > stuff. The problem is that the thinner oils evapourate first leaving the > wax to gum things solid. Doesn't the 'WD' bit stand for 'water displacement'? i.e. it's not designed to be a lubricant at all (and hardly surprising there's some waxy junk in there) I have a feeling the '40' bit is meaningless and was just chosen because it rolled off the tongue nicely... cheers, Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 25 17:02:22 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <000001c489f0$8d539d00$2801010a@Beovax.Local> References: <000001c489f0$8d539d00$2801010a@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <514532e44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <000001c489f0$8d539d00$2801010a@Beovax.Local> "Witchy" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > > Sent: 24 August 2004 16:23 > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > > > Copious amounts of Jif (or whatever the hell it's called this > > week) has worked well for me in the past. Some sort of > > scouring sponge (rather than a simple cloth) is probably best > > as case plastics tend to be somewhat uneven. > > The other lads in the workshop here agree with that - jif/cif is the way > forward! Dare I ask if anyone knows if Jif/Cif will remove tobacco smoke (nicotine) residue from plastics as well? IPA-170 seems to do some good, but doesn't remove all of it (there's plenty left to make the plastic stink when it gets warm). This is on a TV, BTW, so "getting warm" is pretty much all it does besides displaying a picture and emitting sound... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'm not nearly as think as you confused I am. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 26 13:10:38 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 24, 4 02:27:00 pm Message-ID: <20040825220939.IMKK7925.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > > > > Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ > > THe PSUs in my true-blue IBMs are assembled with tamperproof Torx screws > (the ones with the pin in the middle). Of course this didn't stop me > taking them apart ;-).... > > THe PSU and monitor in my PortabelPC (5155) have some Bristol Spline > screws in them. Now thoese are non-trivial to find tools for in the UK... > > -tony Haha, reminds me to tell about a headless screw... has no slot, just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and turn. They does unscrew. (!!) That was on PC RT PSU housing. Cheers, Wizard From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 17:11:18 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <1093471452.14396.74.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1093471452.14396.74.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040825150830.K14267@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Doesn't the 'WD' bit stand for 'water displacement'? yes > i.e. it's not > designed to be a lubricant at all (and hardly surprising there's some > waxy junk in there) > I have a feeling the '40' bit is meaningless and was just chosen because > it rolled off the tongue nicely... as a rule of thumb: 40 would mean that there have been 39 prior failures. They number starting at 1, not at zero. (cardinal v ordinal?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 17:35:17 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <514532e44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <000001c489f0$8d539d00$2801010a@Beovax.Local> <514532e44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20040825153447.V14267@shell.lmi.net> Have you tried JIF with naval jelly? From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 25 17:36:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Perkin-Elmer tape drive Message-ID: A nice unit if someone has the resources to rescue it from Idaho: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5716477954 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 25 17:48:33 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? Message-ID: <200408252248.PAA10586@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >Have you tried JIF with naval jelly? > Hi Is that in place of strawberry jam? Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 25 17:49:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:30 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825121725.T8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Peanut shells (or better yet walnut shells) are a very useful abrasive, > and are ground up for use in sand-blasting like equipment. Also used in tumblers for rocks or empty ammunition carthridges. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 25 17:52:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <003101c48ae9$396c2be0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Merchberger" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > > > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > > > > >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the > > >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, > > >know that there that there are many different viscousities > > >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate > > >"thickness". > > > > > >It's a drag to repair damage done by amateurs, putting > > >WD40 on things that actually needed a heavy grease. > > > > Viscosity is also a large factor on environment. WD40 works great on my > > door hinges in my house, but I use heavy grease on automotive door > hinges... > > > > Just IMHO, > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > > > Real mechanics read the manual that came with the machine they need to lube, > and they also make sure the lube is rated for the temperature their gear > will run in. Last time I checked viscosity is temperature dependent, so you > might need something "thicker" in hotter climates and something "thinner" in > colder ones. > > If you are not sure, then go ask somebody who might have a clue (well works > for me anyway). > > For quite a few purposes around the house where something is old and stuck > and just needs to get moving again (not worth the time and effort for a > rebuild) WD40 works just fine. I'm pretty sure the suggestion was to use WD40 as a yellowing-case cleaner. How did this suddenly turn into a discussion on lubrication? Fred?? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 17:39:58 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <1093471452.14396.74.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 25, 4 10:04:12 pm Message-ID: > Doesn't the 'WD' bit stand for 'water displacement'? i.e. it's not Either that or 'Water Displacer'. > designed to be a lubricant at all (and hardly surprising there's some > waxy junk in there) It's _supposed_ to leave a waxy flim behind, so as to keep the water off... It's great if used for that (to keep the HT side of your car's ignition system dry, to keep rust off the garden tools, off the steel rods you keep in stock, and so on). But people seem to think that because it's oil-based and because it's thin when it comes out the can, it must be a suitable lubricant for fine machinery. That is what I object to it being used for (mainly because said machine ends up on my bench a few weeks later and needs a complete strip-down and rebuild). > > I have a feeling the '40' bit is meaningless and was just chosen because > it rolled off the tongue nicely... The norammly-quoted legend is that it was the 40th formula tried... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 17:44:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040825220939.IMKK7925.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Aug 26, 4 06:10:38 pm Message-ID: > Haha, reminds me to tell about a headless screw... has no slot, > just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip > to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and turn. > They does unscrew. (!!) I wonder if they were shear-head scews. They had a head once (probably a male hexagon to be gripped with a normal spanner), but it was designed to shear off when the screw was fully tightened. They're used for things like car ignition switches (so a car thief can't easily remove the lock from the steering column). > > That was on PC RT PSU housing. Now why you'd want to make a PSU so difficult to repair is beyond me... -tony From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 25 18:14:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client Message-ID: Does anyone know of a free or cheap DOS (i.e. not requiring Win32) command-line e-mail client? I'd like something that I can use to send off short messages with just the command line from DOS with TCP/IP drivers already installed (via MSNC). I Googled but only found programs for Win32. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 18:27:14 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040825162056.K14267@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm pretty sure the suggestion was to use WD40 as a yellowing-case > cleaner. How did this suddenly turn into a discussion on lubrication? > Fred?? Guilty. I saw WD40 repeated dozens of times, followed by "Need I say more?" and didn't realize that it was being recommended as a cleanser. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 25 18:27:36 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Perkin-Elmer tape drive References: Message-ID: <007601c48afb$1b4dbb80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> that's exactly the the tape drive I always saw on microdata reality systems. Jay From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 26 14:45:02 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040825220939.IMKK7925.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Aug 26, 4 06:10:38 pm Message-ID: <20040825234403.CKKV14082.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:44:07 +0100 (BST) > Subject: Re: What fun from a Macintosh SE > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Haha, reminds me to tell about a headless screw... has no slot, > > just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip > > to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and turn. > > They does unscrew. (!!) > I wonder if they were shear-head scews. They had a head once (probably a > male hexagon to be gripped with a normal spanner), but it was designed to > shear off when the screw was fully tightened. They're used for things > like car ignition switches (so a car thief can't easily remove the lock > from the steering column). Completely smooth and roundish like a philips screw without the "+" like manufacturing missed a hit to put "+" impression into blank heads. Yes, I saw how nails and bolts, screws were made on canadian shows called "How it is made". Yes, I have a screw of that break away type with carb rebuild kit for (my first car) caravan plymouth 1987 2.2L 4 cyl with carb. Fixing caravan up in "major" ways, again a first for me but I have done bit of auto work on other friends'. Yes, that is last year for carb! Later half of 1987 saw moving up to 2.5L with single injection in throttle body (TBI) and multi-injected V6 3.0L. Not using that break away screw, don't want more problems trying to get it off again later. Reason: the carb has broken choke heater and needs a rebuild and bit of repair that former owner screwed up. Question: how much side play in throttle shafts is considered acceptable and when should be rebushed? Back to screw topic: Once I found a philips screw without rolled thread in a bag of computer screws that comes with computer case, it is generic but there is decent quality brands out there like Antec etc for empty computer cases with power supply. Cheers, Wizard From paulpenn at knology.net Wed Aug 25 18:49:31 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client References: Message-ID: <004e01c48afe$2ac7a5f0$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Sellam; Googling for "internet browser text dos" produced the following page with an even dozen such programs as the first hit: http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/ Paul A. Pennington Augusta, Georgia From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 18:56:56 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825195011.04dd87c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >Does anyone know of a free or cheap DOS (i.e. not requiring Win32) >command-line e-mail client? I'd like something that I can use to send off >short messages with just the command line from DOS with TCP/IP drivers >already installed (via MSNC). There's a pine for DOS-only, here's a reference to it that uses WAT-TCP for Dos, here: http://www.smashco.com/wattcp.asp towards the bottom... includes other server & client software for DOS. Here is a reference for Elm for PC (MSDOS) Version 2.3 about 1/2 way down the page: http://www.bookcase.com/library/software/msdos.network.tcpip.mail.html Pegasus has a version for DOS: http://www.pmail.com/overviews/ovw_pmail.htm Here's a clip of their sys. requirements: Pegasus Mail for DOS - system requirements * Any version of MS-DOS or PC-DOS v5.0 or later, Windows 3.x, 95, 98, NT or 2000 * 2MB disk space, plus whatever is required for mail storage * 520KB available DOS RAM at the time the program is run =-=-=-=-= Here's a page about setting up a DOS client for email with Dialup PPP: http://www.komaromi.com/dos_email/ Dunno how good it is, I just found it and cut&pasted... Hopefully, that'll get you started... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. Here's a link to the Google search I used: http://www.google.com/search?q=msdos+tcpip+mail+client&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 The keywords were -> msdos tcpip mail client <- ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 25 18:57:51 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <003101c48ae9$396c2be0$0500fea9@game> References: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151828.04c51bf8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825190949.04d2c3e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: > > Viscosity is also a large factor on environment. WD40 works great on my > > door hinges in my house, but I use heavy grease on automotive door >hinges... > > > > Just IMHO, > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > > >Real mechanics read the manual that came with the machine they need to lube, >and they also make sure the lube is rated for the temperature their gear >will run in. Last time I checked viscosity is temperature dependent, so you >might need something "thicker" in hotter climates and something "thinner" in >colder ones. Well, I wasn't advocating using WD-40 in the crankcase... :-O I have yet to see a lubrication guide for indoor-use door hinges... >If you are not sure, then go ask somebody who might have a clue (well works >for me anyway). ...and my car dealership uses WD-40 on automotive hinges (which especially up in the cold, salty north doesn't last very long at all). They should be the ones with the clue, should they not? ;-P >For quite a few purposes around the house where something is old and stuck >and just needs to get moving again (not worth the time and effort for a >rebuild) WD40 works just fine. Which is pretty much what I was getting at... (Oh, and I'm not a real mechanic, either. I don't even play one on TV! I'm a geek.) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Aug 25 19:28:58 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Does anyone know of a free or cheap DOS (i.e. not requiring Win32) > command-line e-mail client? I'd like something that I can use to send off > short messages with just the command line from DOS with TCP/IP drivers > already installed (via MSNC). Not sure about the protocol stack shims required anymore but at one time we ran the DOS version of PINE with MS Lan mangler. Think it requires a packet driver over NDIS shim or vice versa. > > I Googled but only found programs for Win32. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From sastevens at earthlink.net Wed Aug 25 19:52:01 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825190949.04d2c3e0@mail.30below.com> References: <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200408250933.36345.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151828.04c51bf8@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040825190949.04d2c3e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040825195201.1563fb98.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:57:51 -0400 Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: > > > > Viscosity is also a large factor on environment. WD40 works great > > > on my door hinges in my house, but I use heavy grease on > > > automotive door > >hinges... > > > > > > Just IMHO, > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > > > > > >Real mechanics read the manual that came with the machine they need > >to lube, and they also make sure the lube is rated for the > >temperature their gear will run in. Last time I checked viscosity is > >temperature dependent, so you might need something "thicker" in > >hotter climates and something "thinner" in colder ones. > > Well, I wasn't advocating using WD-40 in the crankcase... :-O > > I have yet to see a lubrication guide for indoor-use door hinges... > > >If you are not sure, then go ask somebody who might have a clue (well > >works for me anyway). > > ...and my car dealership uses WD-40 on automotive hinges (which > especially up in the cold, salty north doesn't last very long at all). > They should be the ones with the clue, should they not? ;-P > It's my understanding, and I'm not a lubricant expert, that WD40 is a solvent, not a lubricant. And that it essentially activates dried or hardened lubricant. If it's over-applied it washes out the lubricant and has negative impact, rather than a benefit. But that's me, contributing to the topic drift. My understanding does reinforce the idea that WD40 is a solvent, though, since the thread was originally about using it to clean. > >For quite a few purposes around the house where something is old and > >stuck and just needs to get moving again (not worth the time and > >effort for a rebuild) WD40 works just fine. > > Which is pretty much what I was getting at... > > (Oh, and I'm not a real mechanic, either. I don't even play one on TV! > I'm a geek.) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." > sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein > zmerch@30below.com | > From sastevens at earthlink.net Wed Aug 25 19:56:07 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040824165523.52f476de.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040825195607.5827ee52.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:11:21 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > All the old Compaq machines used Torx screws. I know, because one > > of the first 'upgrades' I used to do on Compaq boxes I intended to > > use for anything was to upgrade (downgrade?) all the screws to > > phillips. > > I'vr never had a Torx screw that I can't undo with the right tool, but > > I've had far too many Phillips/Pozidriv that I can't shift other than > drilling them out (the most recent one held the Logic 1 PCB in an > HP87, and I didn't want to damage either the case or the PCB...). > > Therefroe I fail to see how replacing Torx with Phillips could ever be > an upgrade... > Back when I was an obsessive PC Clone fiddler, all my 'normal' machines had phillips screws, and the torx driver was a special tool that normally wasn't on hand. I had phillips drivers all over the place. It was a significant convenience to get rid of the torx screws. It's (obviously) open for discussion wether this is good or bad. Those were 'use' machines, definitely not collectable/preserved machines. I consider any machine with historical/collectable interest to be of lesser value if it doesn't have all the original hardware. This goes back to my days when in tech school when I was always scrounging at thrift stores for used TV sets to pick up, troubleshoot, and give to friends. It's a bad sign if any single original screw is missing from the case. It means someone has been meddling in it before me. > -tony From sastevens at earthlink.net Wed Aug 25 19:57:53 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040825220939.IMKK7925.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Message-ID: <20040825195753.480ed56f.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:44:07 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Haha, reminds me to tell about a headless screw... has no slot, > > just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip > > > > to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and > > turn. They does unscrew. (!!) > > I wonder if they were shear-head scews. They had a head once (probably > a male hexagon to be gripped with a normal spanner), but it was > designed to shear off when the screw was fully tightened. They're used > for things like car ignition switches (so a car thief can't easily > remove the lock from the steering column). > > > > > That was on PC RT PSU housing. > > Now why you'd want to make a PSU so difficult to repair is beyond > me... > > -tony In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 25 19:25:36 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:55:49 +0100 (BST) . Message-ID: <20040826013627.RWJN1789.imf25aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> > CONFUSED here. How the heck do you scan a printer ribbon? > :-) It's to read the indentations and find out what high security material was printed with it. I kid you not. (Ok, maybe a little, but this next part is true.) Back in college we had a hybrid machine donated to us. Behind a not particularly obvious hinged panel was a notebook that contained the machine's security log. Naturally, I read through it and was quite stunned when I read the entry where they removed the line printer ribbon, stamped it classified and locked it in a safe. Brian L. Stuart From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 25 19:28:03 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:20:15 -0400 . <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151828.04c51bf8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040826013854.RXHU1789.imf25aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151828.04c51bf8@mail.30below.com>, Roger Merchbe rger writes: >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, >know that there that there are many different viscousities >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate >"thickness". Is there a good rule of thumb (for those cases where one doesn't have an appropriate manual) for what to use? For example, could one say that for meshing gears one wants a heavier grease, but for metal parts that rub (e.g. bushing) one wants a thinner oil? Brian L. Stuart From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 18:19:09 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <20040811153445.F22401@shell.lmi.net> References: <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811191429.00bbaa88@mail.earthlink.net> Hi Fred, this is exactly what I have been talking about... best regards, Steve Thatcher At 04:02 PM 08/11/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > to re-iterate, the separate sections I am proposing let the emulator do > > this very easily. Embed the format and the data together as pyhsical > > information and then the matter of extracting a file for emulation > > becomes difficult and not universal. > >That's an important point. > >Each person has different uses for it. Steve and I want >something that is practical for file extraction (I could >replace the sector read code in XenoCopy with some file >parsing,...) > >And for regeneration, there is such a thing as TOO MUCH >data. If you try to replicate a disk, where every single >bit/flux transition is specified, it is not feasable. >There is a reason for "GAP" fields! If you try to >replicate the disk, you will not be able to recreate >some of the mangled bytes in the write splice fields. >Unless you are trying to replicate sopy-protection, >you would be WAY better off storing JUST the data, >and the specs of the format, and recreating the format >instead of trying to replicate it! >Instead, a 360K disk should have 360K of data, whether >as 360K of binary bytes, or as 720K+ of ASCII hex dump, >PLUS just the information that it is 9 512 byte sectors >per track. Any exceptions to "standard" formatting >could be documented in the header, OR within the data >as necessary. >For example, a DS Kaypro disk should have the head number >field of the sectors on the second side wrongly set to 0. > >But OTHER people, such as the CAPS project feel a need to >replicate every flux transition. > > >Therefore, since this is an extensible spec, >I propose that it have a multi-layer structure: >(I realize that this will grievously offend those >who are insisting on a single invariable structure!) > >Mundane mode: >Header with physical format data, including a flag >of whether the data is in binary or ASCII hex dump, >followed by a stream of all the user data. > >In mundane mode, with trivial processing, a machine >with an FDC could format the disk and write the >data to it, for disks with no abnormalities. >File size in binary mode would be only a few blocks >(header) larger than the original disk. >File size in ASCII hex dump mode would be 3 times >the size of the original disk. >Either file size could be reduced a bit through RLE. > >In mundane mode, one CP/M format could be trivially >converted to another in cases where the number of >reserved tracks and records per block match, just >by stepping on the bytes per sector and sectors per >track data! > >In mundane mode, reading alien disks consists of >parsing the directory data on the disk enough to >determine where each file starts and ends. > > >Minimal quirks mode: >Similar to mundane mode, but header could specify >(IF KNOWN) any logical interleave, and simple >variants from normal formatting (such as the >Kaypro DS) > >Medium quirks mode: >Specify the formatting for each and every sector > >Maximum quirks mode: >Specify every miswritten byte, the contents of every >gap and sector header field, etc. With minor processing >and sent to a CatWeasel/Option board, etc. would produce >a decent duplicate of the disk. > >A binary form of maximum quirks mode could look like the raw >bit stream from a Catweasel/Option board. >But for practical study, ASCII hex dump mode would be preferable. >(look at the TE.COM program of the Option board) From shirker at mooli.org.uk Wed Aug 25 20:48:23 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: <412C307E.4090409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <412C307E.4090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > > I also have your LA120 ribbons, Fred. *prods Fred again* > > So, if you can get them scanned that'd be great. > CONFUSED here. How the heck do you scan a printer ribbon? > :-) With a scanner, of course. ;D From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Aug 25 20:49:03 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040811191429.00bbaa88@mail.earthlink.net> References: <20040811153445.F22401@shell.lmi.net> <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <7575796.1092261182458.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825214800.00bbac08@mail.earthlink.net> sorry, previous old message that just go purged off my laptop and out to the list... sigh best regards, Steve From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Aug 25 21:41:00 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151229.04b7eed0@mail.30below.com> References: <30108.1093450668@www46.gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151229.04b7eed0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040826024100.GC21247@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 03:17:34PM -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Also, if you're looking for something "more updated" there's always the > Hitachi 63C09 - it's 4 Mhz, and has more registers, a 16-bit integer > multiply (with a 32-bit result) and clock for clock is faster than the 6809. Is it pin-compatible with the 6809? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Aug-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -92 F (-68.9 C) Windchill -125.8 F (-87.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 099 Barometer 673.2 mb (10884. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 25 22:10:47 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? In-Reply-To: <20040826024100.GC21247@bos7.spole.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Aug 26, 4 02:41:00 am" Message-ID: <200408260310.UAA16418@floodgap.com> > > Also, if you're looking for something "more updated" there's always the > > Hitachi 63C09 - it's 4 Mhz, and has more registers, a 16-bit integer > > multiply (with a 32-bit result) and clock for clock is faster than the 6809. > > Is it pin-compatible with the 6809? If the 63C09 == the 6309, the answer should be yes. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The world is coming to an end. Log off now. -------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 21:58:12 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040825195202.G20993@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > Now why you'd want to make a PSU so difficult to repair is beyond me... IBM had a simple reason. If somebody wanted to check for voltage with their tongue, or similar behavior, IBM didn't want to take the blame. So,... they made it hard enough to get into to eliminate MOST of the people who would hurt themselves. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 25 22:09:20 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825121725.T8547@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net><20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <003d01c48a76$3751d3a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <412C439D.4010601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040825121725.T8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200408260314.XAA28107@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Peanut butter is sold in two forms: "smooth/creamy/..." and "crunchy" > The crunchy is usually smooth peanut butter with some chunks of > peanut added back in. That's only if you go for plastic peanut butter. The real stuff is significantly coarser than "smooth" but does not have anything approximating real crunch. I suppose you could add peanut pieces to it, but I don't see the point, unless you like sharp corners doing violence to your gums. ("How I envy the ro-o-o-ose you held in your teeth, love / With the thorns underneath, love / Sticking into your gums!") > It's not very abrasive. True. Peanuts are rather low on hardness scales. :) For things needing a bit of abrasion, slightly dampened baking soda can often do good things. It's also comparatively nontoxic; even inhaled, it just dissolves upon meeting mucous membranes. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 25 22:23:30 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408260325.XAA28209@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anyone know of a free or cheap DOS (i.e. not requiring Win32) > command-line e-mail client? I'd like something that I can use to > send off short messages with just the command line from DOS with > TCP/IP drivers already installed (via MSNC). Well, there's always telnet to the relevant MX's smtp port. Rudimentary, but good enough for the occasional small one-off, and it doesn't require anything more elaborate than telnet - which any OS with a TCP stack surely has. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 25 22:21:15 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? References: <30108.1093450668@www46.gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040825151229.04b7eed0@mail.30below.com> <20040826024100.GC21247@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <412D572B.4010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 03:17:34PM -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Also, if you're looking for something "more updated" there's always the >>Hitachi 63C09 - it's 4 Mhz, and has more registers, a 16-bit integer >>multiply (with a 32-bit result) and clock for clock is faster than the 6809. > > > Is it pin-compatible with the 6809? > > -ethan > Off hand I think it is pin compatable since it was a 6809 replacement part. The gota is the hardware designers upgraded the core instruction set to switch instruction sets from the 'Motorola 6809' to the 'Enhanced 6809' mode with a mode changing instuction.Since they had a license to sell only 6809 parts this information was never documented other than hardware hackers on the internet. More information can be found here. http://www.concentric.net/~Alxevans/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Aug 25 22:31:15 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk Message-ID: I recently obtained a number of modules from a SAGE AN/FSQ-7 (or-8) computer, and seeing that I will never even come close to thinking about having the whole thing, I could probably part with one or two. These are the real deal - complete with the original IBM numbered tubes. I don't know what the modules do. I'll trade one (or more) for something interesting (I think most people know what I like), or maybe sell one or two for a good pile of cash. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Aug 25 23:24:06 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk References: Message-ID: <007001c48b24$874b9ea0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> William, please send photos. we are interested in purchasing them! thanks ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk > I recently obtained a number of modules from a SAGE AN/FSQ-7 > (or-8) computer, and seeing that I will never even come close to thinking > about having the whole thing, I could probably part with one or two. > > These are the real deal - complete with the original IBM numbered tubes. I > don't know what the modules do. > > I'll trade one (or more) for something interesting (I think most people > know what I like), or maybe sell one or two for a good pile of cash. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Aug 25 23:45:13 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Burroughs Part Numbers Message-ID: Can anyone out there tell me what Burroughs part numbers look like - specifically the house numbers they used for TTL and such? I have a bunch of chips with 1471-**** numbers that I strongly suspect are Burroughs ECD types, but I would like to confirm before I decide if they go to the refinery. Pickier question: Did the Burroughs mainframe people use the same house numbering scheme as the ECD people? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From us21090 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 00:42:51 2004 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Kim-1 on ebay! Message-ID: <20040826054251.94331.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> All, What do you know, there's a KIM-1 on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5118314680 Not a whole lotta description, though. Right now the price is $102.50. The auction ends on 8/30. I don't know the seller in any way, I was just looking around. ===== Free Mini or 20GB Ipod! Wired.com, CNN and others say its legit! Visit http://tinyurl.com/3tsvt __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Aug 26 00:55:00 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113295@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hmm, I tried to post this yesterday ... probably something went wrong.. I am looking for a 63C09E or 63B09E. Anybody knows where I can buy it?? I found a source in Australia, but that is the 63B09. The suffix "E" is important, it is the *external* clock version, as used in the Core Board of the Blinkenlight project (40 pin DIL case). I have a PDP-8/e simulation running on th Core board, but could use a performance increase. Upgrading to the Motorola "B" parts will allow to double the clock frequency, but the Hitachi 63B09 is even faster, as it does many 6809 instructions in less cycles. Interested in the sim? Check my 'Homebrew PDP-11' page, the link there is "spin off" ... - Henk, www.pdp-11.nl > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of ben franchuk > Sent: donderdag 26 augustus 2004 5:21 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: dos electronics software? > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 03:17:34PM -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > >>Also, if you're looking for something "more updated" > there's always the > >>Hitachi 63C09 - it's 4 Mhz, and has more registers, a > 16-bit integer > >>multiply (with a 32-bit result) and clock for clock is > faster than the 6809. > > > > > > Is it pin-compatible with the 6809? > > > > -ethan > > > > Off hand I think it is pin compatable since it was a 6809 > replacement part. > The gota is the hardware designers upgraded the core > instruction set to > switch instruction sets from the 'Motorola 6809' to the > 'Enhanced 6809' mode > with a mode changing instuction.Since they had a license to sell only > 6809 parts > this information was never documented other than hardware > hackers on the > internet. > More information can be found here. > http://www.concentric.net/~Alxevans/index.html > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 26 01:01:11 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113295@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <412D7CA7.2030801@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen H wrote: > Hmm, I tried to post this yesterday ... probably something went wrong.. > I am looking for a 63C09E or 63B09E. Anybody knows where I can buy it?? > I found a source in Australia, but that is the 63B09. The suffix "E" > is important, it is the *external* clock version, as used in the Core > Board of the Blinkenlight project (40 pin DIL case). > I have a PDP-8/e simulation running on th Core board, but could use > a performance increase. Upgrading to the Motorola "B" parts will allow > to double the clock frequency, but the Hitachi 63B09 is even faster, > as it does many 6809 instructions in less cycles. > Interested in the sim? Check my 'Homebrew PDP-11' page, the link there > is "spin off" ... You really don't want to know the price! you better Sit down. Sit ... sit ... sit ... Now beg for the doggy snack. Oh Sorry. :-) Here is the link. http://www.cloud9tech.com/index.html The price is about $32 US each. > - Henk, PS. If you ever get a good single board 63C09 computer design thats runs OS/9 level two let me know. I have always wanted a real computer and the COCO never quite made it. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 26 01:06:33 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113295@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <412D7DE9.6050609@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen H wrote: > Hmm, I tried to post this yesterday ... probably something went wrong.. > I am looking for a 63C09E or 63B09E. Anybody knows where I can buy it?? > I found a source in Australia, but that is the 63B09. The suffix "E" > is important, it is the *external* clock version, as used in the Core > Board of the Blinkenlight project (40 pin DIL case). > I have a PDP-8/e simulation running on th Core board, but could use > a performance increase. Upgrading to the Motorola "B" parts will allow > to double the clock frequency, but the Hitachi 63B09 is even faster, > as it does many 6809 instructions in less cycles. You may be able to get 68B09's here. http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/6800.html From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Aug 26 01:17:05 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: dos electronics software? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113296@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Great! Thanks, Ben. Had not found this one. "coco" is a good term to include in the search :-) Will continue looking, but if no cheaper source turns up, I think I will spend the $31 out of curiousity to see the actual performance it claims. The page says that the 63C09 runs cooler than the 6809. I can confirm that the 68B09 at 1 MHz is warm, but I heard from Vince that the 6809 at 1 MHz gets quite warm! tnx, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of ben franchuk > Sent: donderdag 26 augustus 2004 8:01 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: dos electronics software? > > > Gooijen H wrote: > > Hmm, I tried to post this yesterday ... probably something > went wrong.. > > I am looking for a 63C09E or 63B09E. Anybody knows where I > can buy it?? > > I found a source in Australia, but that is the 63B09. The > suffix "E" > > is important, it is the *external* clock version, as used > in the Core > > Board of the Blinkenlight project (40 pin DIL case). > > I have a PDP-8/e simulation running on th Core board, but could use > > a performance increase. Upgrading to the Motorola "B" parts > will allow > > to double the clock frequency, but the Hitachi 63B09 is even faster, > > as it does many 6809 instructions in less cycles. > > Interested in the sim? Check my 'Homebrew PDP-11' page, > the link there > > is "spin off" ... > > You really don't want to know the price! > you better Sit down. > > > Sit > ... > > > sit > > > ... > > sit > > > ... > Now beg for the doggy snack. > Oh Sorry. :-) Here is the link. > http://www.cloud9tech.com/index.html > The price is about $32 US each. > > > - Henk, > > PS. If you ever get a good single board 63C09 computer design > thats runs OS/9 level two let me know. I have always wanted a > real computer and the COCO never quite made it. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 01:07:59 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040825190949.04d2c3e0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 25, 4 07:57:51 pm Message-ID: > ...and my car dealership uses WD-40 on automotive hinges (which especially > up in the cold, salty north doesn't last very long at all). They should be > the ones with the clue, should they not? ;-P Having observed some of the mechanics in car repair garages in the UK, I would consider them to be totally lacking in clue! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 01:11:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040826013854.RXHU1789.imf25aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> from "blstuart@bellsouth.net" at Aug 25, 4 07:28:03 pm Message-ID: > rger writes: > >REAL mechanics may or may not know anything about any of the > >other characteristics of lubricants, but they do, at least, > >know that there that there are many different viscousities > >of lubricants, and that you need to use one of appropriate > >"thickness". > > Is there a good rule of thumb (for those cases where one > doesn't have an appropriate manual) for what to use? For > example, could one say that for meshing gears one wants > a heavier grease, but for metal parts that rub (e.g. bushing) > one wants a thinner oil? Very rough rule : The fast the sliding between 2 parts, the thinner the lubricant you use (and note that gears therefore tend to require a thicker lubricant than you'd expect). One exception is that most mechanical clocks and watches should have _no_ lubricant on the pinions and wheels (gears) at all. The pivots (bearings) need oil, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 01:14:16 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040825195753.480ed56f.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 25, 4 07:57:53 pm Message-ID: > > In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the > outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw > sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside. Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes). -tony From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Aug 26 02:16:46 2004 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Security Bits (was: Re: What fun from a Macintosh SE) Message-ID: <1075.1093504606@www17.gmx.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > ...The one that's hard to get is > the System Zero. This looks like an inverse torx (The screw head is > male, with slots round the outside, the driver is female), but it's > designed so that nothing but the right tool will get it out (the sides > of the screwhead taper slightly so that you can't grab it with pliers or > a Mole Wrench (self-locking wrench), for example). > > Yes, I have a set of those tools -- one of my EPROM programmer [1] is > assembled with them, for what reason %deity only knows. > > [1] A thing called a Ferret. It's a combined EPROM programmer, breakout > box, RS232 / current loop / centronics converter, Z80 computer, strip > printer, etc in a portable case. Nintendo also uses them on their Super NES / Famicom Deck housing and game cartridges (not sure about the original NES/Famicom). They managed to pretty much defeat their purpose by placing them in "wells" in the plastic so you can wedge a pair of correctly sized tweezers between the well wall and the screw head and apply enough traction to get them out. Been there, done that (to investigate how to replace coin cell for save-game feature). -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de NEU: Bis zu 10 GB Speicher für e-mails & Dateien! 1 GB bereits bei GMX FreeMail http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Thu Aug 26 02:52:52 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825162056.K14267@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040825162056.K14267@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200408260852.52620.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> It also works fantastically on squeeky Sidi Vertebrae motorcycle boots. I'd just like to point out that I don't oil my motorbike chain with it ;) Maybe someone could point out the disadvantages of using it as a cleaner, because I clean/protect everything with it, however I don't *lubricate* anything with it (except said motorcycle boots ;) Mark. On Thursday 26 August 2004 12:27 am, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'm pretty sure the suggestion was to use WD40 as a yellowing-case > > cleaner. How did this suddenly turn into a discussion on lubrication? > > Fred?? > > Guilty. > I saw WD40 repeated dozens of times, followed by "Need I say more?" > and didn't realize that it was being recommended as a cleanser. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Thu Aug 26 03:05:22 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number of function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). My list is something like: 1. IBM Model M (original buckle-spring technology, still standing the test of time) 2. Unicomp PC 5250 (two rows of function keys at the top upto F24 and a set of 10 on the left, can be bought new and 'broken in') 3. DEC LK421 (not-often-seen cut-size Unix programmers DEC keyboard) 4. Wyse WY-40 (very nice positive feel with sturdy base) 5. Early Chiconi PC keyboards (hopelessly rattly and cheap but engaging 'click' and quick to type on none-the-less) 6. My college used to have a computer room full of terminals, possibly Adds, which had a very nice short travel and positive click keyboard). 7. ZX81 (simply because it was my first computer). 8. Cherry high end keyboards. 9. DEC keyboards with a 'Do' and 'Help' key. 10. SUN keyboards with 'Cut', 'Copy' and 'Paste' keys. I'm a great fan of dedicated keys, and function keys on the left. Whoever decided to put the out of reach at the top of the keyboard needs their head examining! There must have been some stonking keyboards attached to more vintage hardware. I'd love to know about them (if that doesn't sound a bit weird!). Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 26 03:40:57 2004 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040826093236.01e687e8@slave> At 09:05 26/08/2004, you wrote: >OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > >List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, >number of >function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or >pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). 1: Like you, the IBM Model M - I'm also including modern imitations such as the Unicomp I'm using now, which sounds & feels just like the original. 2: is a Wyse kb, I forget the model number, just it was (as best I recall) quite pleasant to type on. 3: would have to be the TRS-80 Model 102, very nice keyboard considering the 1/2 A4 (Letter to you Americans) sized layout 4: BBC Model B - similar to the Tandy in feel. The layout's a bit screwy, but once you get used to it its very comfortable 5: Sinclair QL - Not a nice keyboard, but the one I grew up with. >I'm a great fan of dedicated keys, and function keys on the left. Whoever >decided to put the out of reach at the top of the keyboard needs their head >examining! Hmm - I'm ambivalent about that sort of thing. I don't really mind where they are, so long as they're somewhere... Besides, modern PC keyboard are quite wide enough without adding a couple more columns of keys down the left-hand side... >There must have been some stonking keyboards attached to more vintage >hardware. I'd love to know about them (if that doesn't sound a bit weird!). The Sharp MZ-80K had a similar keyboard to the PET-2001, but uniquely worse. Whilst the PET needed very careful keypressing, at least the keys didn't stick up or down if you didn't hit them exactly square on the top... The later CBM PET keyboards were quite good, but suffer badly if not used regularly. The 8000 series has to have one of the few keyboard which can be made to recover by repeatedly hammering a duff key. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 26 05:17:06 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408252248.PAA10586@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408252248.PAA10586@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1093515426.16127.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 22:48, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Fred Cisin" > > > >Have you tried JIF with naval jelly? > > > > Hi > Is that in place of strawberry jam? > Dwight At least he didn't say navel jelly... J. From unibus at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 06:05:35 2004 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Burroughs Part Numbers Message-ID: Where I worked in the early 80s had a reference printout that gave the conversion between Burroughs part numbers and the industry standard parts. Thought some of that series were Farchild microCTL chips used in systems like the B6700. Sorry, don't have access to the printout as it would have been dumped years ago. Regards, Garry From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Aug 26 06:16:09 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> At 04:05 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >List the best keyboards you have ever used. Y Best keyboard: cheap 101key (using a $5 Mitsumi at the moment) so when I spill coffee on it I don't make it worse by crying over it. Worst keyboard: DEC LK201 on VT220 terminals - no key, misplaced angle bracket <> keys (both on same key), reduced size shift key so you always missed it and hit something else. A TECO nightmare. Plus you couldn't get a cup of coffee within 6 inches of it before it would crap out. Ed TECO forever From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 26 07:04:22 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <007101c48b64$d37558d0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kelleher" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:16 AM Subject: Re: Best keyboards you've used ever! > At 04:05 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: > >List the best keyboards you have ever used. Y > > Best keyboard: cheap 101key (using a $5 Mitsumi at the moment) so when I > spill coffee on it I don't make it worse by crying over it. > > Worst keyboard: DEC LK201 on VT220 terminals - no key, misplaced > angle bracket <> keys (both on same key), reduced size shift key so you > always missed it and hit something else. A TECO nightmare. Plus you > couldn't get a cup of coffee within 6 inches of it before it would crap out. > > Ed > > TECO forever > > I always like the Northgate OmniKey keyboard because of the feel and they last forever (the one I am typing with now was purchased new in 1991) I can't remember what terminal I was using in college to program Fortran on the mainframe, but it had a good feel to it also (along with a million extra function keys). From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Aug 26 07:06:31 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> Ed Kelleher wrote: > Worst keyboard: DEC LK201 on VT220 terminals - no key, misplaced > angle bracket <> keys (both on same key), Same thing with the keyboard that comes with the Liberty Freedom ONE Plus terminals. Who decided to omit the key and put the angle brackets on the same key? The "standard IBMPC" layout with /. on the same keys seems to be a fairly good compromise. > reduced size shift key so you > always missed it and hit something else. On the F-One the Capslock key is between the Ctrl and "A" keys. You try and hit Ctrl-C, you get > couldn't get a cup of coffee within 6 inches of it before it would crap out. I had trouble getting the Enter key to trigger reliably - a squirt of IPA sorted that out. On my Linux boxen, I'm using a Dell 093GDJ keyboard - white, heavy, with a lovely "click" sound as the key goes down. Key travel seems to be around 5mm to 10mm. %DEITY knows what machines Dell shipped them with (if any) - the keyboards on the newer (black-cased) machines are crap - like typing on a lump of putty. As far as appearance goes, aside from the Dell logo, it looks almost exactly like an IBM Model M... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... The ultimate mail reader is here!!!! From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 26 07:29:54 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:31 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:40:57 BST." <6.1.2.0.2.20040826093236.01e687e8@slave> Message-ID: <200408261229.i7QCTsTf012645@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ade Vickers wrote: >> >>List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, I think the sun type-4 was my favorite. It had the caps key in the right place. Nice feel. small. After, the Symbolics keyboard with the "square, circle and triagle" keys ;-) -brad From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 08:00:31 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: Ditto on the IBM "M" I've got a collection of them, including one with a built-in mousestick, like the Thinkpads, and one with no numeric keypad, so it fits nice on your lap. I also have the special one used for the 3270 emulation card, with all sorts of wierd key caps. I've always been fond of the original Apple 101-key ADB keyboard. Not clicky, but not silent either, about halfway between a mushy Dell keyboard and a type M. The keyboards for my Quadex Q500 are *really* nice, if not the most ergonomic things in the world. They are HUGE, all metal encased beasts with at least 150 keys, most of them for odd typesetting commands like adjusting kerning and tracking, and switching between common fontsizes. It has a regular numeric keypad, and a keypad with numbers that go from 0 to 20, 'cause you don't want to actually TYPE 2 then 0 :) Now if I can retrofit them to work on a PC... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wickens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:05 AM Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! > OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number of > function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or > pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). > > My list is something like: > > 1. IBM Model M (original buckle-spring technology, still standing the test of > time) > 2. Unicomp PC 5250 (two rows of function keys at the top upto F24 and a set of > 10 on the left, can be bought new and 'broken in') > 3. DEC LK421 (not-often-seen cut-size Unix programmers DEC keyboard) > 4. Wyse WY-40 (very nice positive feel with sturdy base) > 5. Early Chiconi PC keyboards (hopelessly rattly and cheap but engaging > 'click' and quick to type on none-the-less) > 6. My college used to have a computer room full of terminals, possibly Adds, > which had a very nice short travel and positive click keyboard). > 7. ZX81 (simply because it was my first computer). > 8. Cherry high end keyboards. > 9. DEC keyboards with a 'Do' and 'Help' key. > 10. SUN keyboards with 'Cut', 'Copy' and 'Paste' keys. > > I'm a great fan of dedicated keys, and function keys on the left. Whoever > decided to put the out of reach at the top of the keyboard needs their head > examining! > > There must have been some stonking keyboards attached to more vintage > hardware. I'd love to know about them (if that doesn't sound a bit weird!). > > Mark. > > -- > Mark Wickens > Rhodium Consulting Ltd > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 08:06:51 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: Symbolics CADR grey/blue keyboard. Sun type 4. Stephane From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 08:04:31 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk References: Message-ID: I'd love one of those radar consoles with the light-gun entry devices and integrated ash tray :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:31 PM Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk > I recently obtained a number of modules from a SAGE AN/FSQ-7 > (or-8) computer, and seeing that I will never even come close to thinking > about having the whole thing, I could probably part with one or two. > > These are the real deal - complete with the original IBM numbered tubes. I > don't know what the modules do. > > I'll trade one (or more) for something interesting (I think most people > know what I like), or maybe sell one or two for a good pile of cash. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 26 08:08:44 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412DE0DC.30408@sbcglobal.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Does anyone know of a free or cheap DOS (i.e. not requiring Win32) > command-line e-mail client? I'd like something that I can use to send off > short messages with just the command line from DOS with TCP/IP drivers > already installed (via MSNC). > > I Googled but only found programs for Win32. > > Thanks! > Does PINE work from the DOS command line? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Aug 26 08:19:10 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408261229.i7QCTsTf012645@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826091845.03427af0@192.168.0.1> At 08:29 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >After, the Symbolics keyboard with the "square, circle and triagle" keys ;-) "triagle" key? Is that for eBay? From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 08:24:38 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826091845.03427af0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826091845.03427af0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: I think the Symbolics keyboard included the APL character set... Stephane On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:19:10 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 08:29 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: > >After, the Symbolics keyboard with the "square, circle and triagle" keys ;-) > > > "triagle" key? Is that for eBay? > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 08:26:42 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client References: <412DE0DC.30408@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: It's an oldie but goody: ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/old/PC-PINE-3.96/README Software is here: ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/old/PC-PINE-3.96/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "Bay Area Computer Collector List" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: Re: Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a free or cheap DOS (i.e. not requiring Win32) > > command-line e-mail client? I'd like something that I can use to send off > > short messages with just the command line from DOS with TCP/IP drivers > > already installed (via MSNC). > > > > I Googled but only found programs for Win32. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Does PINE work from the DOS command line? > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 26 08:31:14 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <16685.58914.245000.903350@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mark" == Mark Wickens writes: Mark> OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: List the best Mark> keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number Mark> of function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more Mark> esoteric designs) or pure keyboard<->computer love (you might Mark> really get off on Vaxen). Judging just by feel and not by key repertoire or the like: 1. PLATO IV terminal keyboard, first generation (serial numbers under 100 or so) 2. PLATO IV next generation, or PLATO V keyboard. 3. DEC VT52/LA36 keyboard. PLATO 3 keyboards would rate highly (around #2) if only the keycaps stayed on straight, but the switch shafts they mount on are round so the caps turn and rub against their neighbors... :-( On the "this one sucks" list: LA30 keyboards (also found on some GT40s, I think) -- recognizable by having somewhat oversized and very square-ish top surfaces of the keys. Most other keyboards (VT100, LK200 and later, typical PC keyboards) are ok, unremarkable but unoffensive. paul From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Aug 26 08:28:56 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826092558.03433408@192.168.0.1> At 04:05 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >I'm a great fan of dedicated keys, and function keys on the left. Whoever >decided to put the out of reach at the top of the keyboard needs their head >examining! Function keys on the left? Made me look. Just found some IBM Personal Computer AT keyboards squirreled away in a closet like that. Don't want to drop one of those suckers on your toe. Found an aftermarket "Value Priced" XT keyboard in it's box too. with the price sticker - $159! Guess that was back when an XT cost $2000. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 26 08:35:50 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Philip" == Philip Pemberton writes: Philip> In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> Ed Philip> Kelleher wrote: >> Worst keyboard: DEC LK201 on VT220 terminals - no key, >> misplaced angle bracket <> keys (both on same key), Philip> Same thing with the keyboard that comes with the Liberty Philip> Freedom ONE Plus terminals. Who decided to omit the key Philip> and put the angle brackets on the same key? I believe the <> thing had something to do with international versions of the keyboard layout, but I don't remember the details and I'm not sure it made any sense in retrospect. Note that this isn't the first time that punctuation moved around -- compare the shifted digits on an ASR33 keyboard with a PC keyboard. As for the ESC, I think it was a combination of "no one needs that key anymore" (decision made by people who didn't care about TECO because the company law was that there is only one editor and its name is EDT) and the fact that a standalone ESC code is a pain in the neck to process when you have function keys that generate escape sequences. paul From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 26 08:56:10 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: <200408251802.TAA20595@citadel.metropolis.local> References: Your message of "Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:24:16 +0200." <412CBD30.18776.5243E698@localhost> Message-ID: <412E081A.5090.57508618@localhost> Am 25 Aug 2004 19:02 meinte Stan Barr: > "Hans Franke" said: > > Personaly I prefer the 125x Series, the ancessor of all of the 8Bit > > 12xx and 13xx Machines. The 13xx are just to big, without any real > > advantage, but the big drawback that you could no longer use the > > CE-125 docking station (cassette, printer, additional baterie and > > serial). > I have one of those, a 1251, docking station etc and even some paper > left for the printer! I remember finding the Basic keywords for the > serial port, but I don't recall coming across any info on the hardware. > It was a very useful machine which saw a lot of use in work. Well, the serial Port on the CE125 was never an official thing. You had to do assembly to use it. This is also connected to my best memories about the 1251... At one point - I was on a boreing ride home from Berlin - I started to play explore the Basic. By accident I came across that it has a PEEK command, which was not described in the manual... So I used the abrevaion feature to learn more. You could speed up typing by only enter as many letters until a keyword gots unique, and a fullstop ... P. -> PRINT, GOT. -> GOTO, GOS. -> GOSUB and so on - it it wasn't unique, it picked the first (GO.->GOSUB). I tried all 1,2 and some 3 letter combinations *G* But all I found where the usual suspects: PEEK, POKE and CALL and one or two realy strange ones. >From there on I tried to get more knowledge about the structure. Well, after several ways to haeng the machine, I figured the Programm RAM, and wrote a programm, writeing a programm line with all 255 possible op-codes ... so seeing what was in there :) Also I found that the display line was a memory mapped bitmap !!! Yeah, soon I had my first high res demo ... two tanks comeing in (with SOUND!) and blowing up each other, and a train passing by:) Still I couldn'T figure out any way to figure out the machine language. About half a year later Sharp finaly released a machine language manual. Maybe there have been more people than just me writeing to Sharp (in Japan) to ask for information :)) So finaly I figured out that the CPU distinguish between an internal Memory on the CPU, and external, as the basic sees it. Still, it's been a lot of fun. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Aug 26 09:36:26 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Burroughs Part Numbers References: Message-ID: <001001c48b7a$12bca380$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> somewhere in the Burroughs stash we have a copy of a cross ref list.... we also have the ge cross ref list too..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 9:45 PM Subject: Burroughs Part Numbers > Can anyone out there tell me what Burroughs part numbers look like - > specifically the house numbers they used for TTL and such? I have a bunch > of chips with 1471-**** numbers that I strongly suspect are Burroughs ECD > types, but I would like to confirm before I decide if they go to the > refinery. > > Pickier question: Did the Burroughs mainframe people use the same house > numbering scheme as the ECD people? > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Aug 26 09:37:17 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk References: Message-ID: <001801c48b7a$39441290$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> we have the gun... still looking for the console.. Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 6:04 AM Subject: Re: FS/FT: SAGE junk > I'd love one of those radar consoles with the light-gun entry devices and > integrated ash tray :) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Donzelli" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:31 PM > Subject: FS/FT: SAGE junk > > > > I recently obtained a number of modules from a SAGE AN/FSQ-7 > > (or-8) computer, and seeing that I will never even come close to thinking > > about having the whole thing, I could probably part with one or two. > > > > These are the real deal - complete with the original IBM numbered tubes. I > > don't know what the modules do. > > > > I'll trade one (or more) for something interesting (I think most people > > know what I like), or maybe sell one or two for a good pile of cash. > > > > William Donzelli > > aw288@osfn.org > > > > > > From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Aug 26 09:44:19 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: I was always partial to the Kaypro II/IV/10 keyboards - light, short travel, positive 'bottom' - since I type four-fingeredly, I found them easy to actually write on - as in large blocks of text at a time. Cheers John From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 26 10:21:59 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> Am 26 Aug 2004 9:05 meinte Mark Wickens: > OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > List the best keyboards you have ever used. Oh, that's simple, it's the SIEMNS low profile terminal keyboard, introducted with the series 975x termainls. While I kept the old terminal (*1,*2), I had no problem, to say good bye to the old, almost 2 inch high keyboard. The layout was basicly the same, just as flat as todays keyboard. Second comes of course the original PC-D keyboard, which was in fact a striped down version of the 9750 design with way less keys ... only some 125 or so. After that? No real lovable keyboard came along. > I'm a great fan of dedicated keys, and function keys on the left. Whoever > decided to put the out of reach at the top of the keyboard needs their head > examining! Well, the 8160/9750 keayboard had over 140 or so keys (I have to count them). It was _rightsized_ roughly you had 5 areas: 20 localy programmable keys (each for 16 char) on the left, next the alpha section (as allways) followed by what could be called the cursor block ... But unlike today, it was made up of _24_ keys with separate functions. Next was a numeric block, mostly like todays PC-Keyboards (except, again it was 19 different keys). Above all a row of special functions, message handling keys, short message keys and function keys (again some 20 keys) was located. It is just a dream. I men, let's take just the simple left tab key, mising on todays PC - how easy table handling is, if such a _dedicated_ key is available. Not to mention all the oter cursor controls. The term full screen editor becomes a complete new meaning. Arround 1986 I added a little controller to attatch the Keyboard to a PC, but there where to many programms working with low level scan codes and such to make it worth. Maybe today, it could be possible to reach again the level of comfort we had 25 years ago. Yeah, did I mention that I'm talking late 70s *G* Gruss H. *1 - Hey, after all it was a real vector display, so an 'A' was made up from 5 straight lines, and not a cloud of glibberisch pixels. *2 - Well, and in fact, just because the new terminal was based on a micro processor instead of a TTL graveyard didn't make anything better. The 8160 slicer did in fact interpret the screen codes as a programm code and produced the desired effects, which resulted in some nice features, never seen again in other machines. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 26 10:38:43 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826163408.03238100@pop.freeserve.net> At 14:35 26/08/2004, Paul Koning wrote: >Note that this isn't the first time that punctuation moved around -- >compare the shifted digits on an ASR33 keyboard with a PC keyboard. And compare different PC keyboards ... discounting the different international variants, I've come across several apparently UK keyboards with different layouts from each other. And when you get onto laptop keyboards, I think every manufacturer goes a different way ... >As for the ESC, I think it was a combination of "no one needs that key >anymore" (decision made by people who didn't care about TECO because >the company law was that there is only one editor and its name is EDT) >and the fact that a standalone ESC code is a pain in the neck to >process when you have function keys that generate escape sequences. Esc is indeed a pain .. (from my days writing software on, for use on, Wyse serial terminals.... Now, the PC-layout Wyse keyboard (on a wy-120) I liked a lot for feel... I can still drive a BBC Micro keyboard by touch, too.. :-) Rob From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 26 10:56:20 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> Message-ID: <00a801c48b85$3b75bea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> the Workhorse IBM model M with ps/2 connectivity the Beauty Apple MacIntosh ADB #1, where the keyboard is hardly bigger than the keycaps. Geekmode Calma GDS CAD keyboard. Big, boxy, with toggle switches and lights. still looking for one of these. honorable mention DEC lk201. It needs the custom edit/edt/tpu editor and custom DEC terminal stand, etc. But great in that environment. John A. From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Aug 26 11:09:12 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826163408.03238100@pop.freeserve.net> References: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826114909.03427cc0@192.168.0.1> At 11:38 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >>As for the ESC, I think it was a combination of "no one needs that key >>anymore" (decision made by people who didn't care about TECO because >>the company law was that there is only one editor and its name is EDT) >>and the fact that a standalone ESC code is a pain in the neck to >>process when you have function keys that generate escape sequences. > >Esc is indeed a pain .. (from my days writing software on, for use on, >Wyse serial terminals.... Now, the PC-layout Wyse keyboard (on a wy-120) >I liked a lot for feel... Actually with PC keyboards the key isn't where I like either. Finger got tired reaching way up to the function key line. I have a TSR that loads under DOS that converts the grave ` (backwards single quote, under the tilde ~) to . Used it this morning in DOS box under W2K with TECO. I found a current list of all books written by David Drake on the web. www.scifan.com Good, except it was in date order, with the year in front of each title. Cut and paste and saved to a text file. Baada bim, baada boom with TECO and a minute later, voila! A csv file sorted by Title with the date at the end of each line. I'm sure there are much better editors, but I have TECO on every OS I regularly work with: WinXXX, Dos, RT11, RSX11M, and some I don't, RSTS, Linux, and VMS. Ed TECO forever From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 11:32:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826092558.03433408@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? 1) Sinclair ZX series 2) Coco 1 3) Coco 2 4) Aquarius (my first) 5) Original PET -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 11:37:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > > 1) Sinclair ZX series > 2) Coco 1 > 3) Coco 2 > 4) Aquarius (my first) > 5) Original PET I forgot to include Coco 3. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 26 11:52:22 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > > > > 1) Sinclair ZX series > > 2) Coco 1 > > 3) Coco 2 > > 4) Aquarius (my first) > > 5) Original PET > > I forgot to include Coco 3. Most (all?) Teletypes are pretty awful, but maybe we ought to be a little forgiving, being mechanical. Teleray and Univac terminals are also pretty bad. And those Mohawk Data Systems tape terminals, too... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Thu Aug 26 12:01:59 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> References: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> Message-ID: <1093539719.5841.203124345@webmail.messagingengine.com> >OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: Understatement of the year! >List the best keyboards you have ever used. Here are my picks in no particular order: 1. The IBM "M". 2. The Original Macintosh keyboard. 3. The Tandy 100/102/200 keyboards. 4. The Macintosh Portable keyboard. 5. The Microsoft Natural keyboard (No laughing, & no comments either!) Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating system to save their, uhhh, assets can make such a comfortable keyboard! Go figure! From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 12:16:22 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) References: Message-ID: Dell laptop keyboards (If you type hard you can actually deform the keyboard) Commodore 64 (Keys too tall, weird layout, poor feedback, oddly shaped caps) ANY membrane keyboard, including Sinclair/Timex ANY industrial rubber keyboard, including those new rollup keyboards (They use them at Bose stores) And, although they are incredibly cool looking, the metal keyboards they use at some fancy trade show kiosks. BMW uses them at car shows, they are really cool looking, have the neat German "QWERTZ" layout, and have all kinds of cool, useful internet buttons like "www." ".com" and ":)" However typing on them is like tapping your fingers on cement. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 12:32 PM Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) > > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > > 1) Sinclair ZX series > 2) Coco 1 > 3) Coco 2 > 4) Aquarius (my first) > 5) Original PET > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 26 12:32:51 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) References: Message-ID: <16686.7875.589162.827821@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? >> > >> > 1) Sinclair ZX series > 2) Coco 1 > 3) Coco 2 > 4) Aquarius (my >> first) > 5) Original PET >> >> I forgot to include Coco 3. William> Most (all?) Teletypes are pretty awful, but maybe we ought William> to be a little forgiving, being mechanical. Most? The ASR33 is bad, definitely. But were the others that bad, too? Being mechanical is no excuse. Consider the Selectric, or for that matter the Friden Flexowriter. That one has a very nice keyboard if you don't mind its hair-trigger. LA30s are bad. Another bad one is the CDC 6600 "radar tube" console keyboard. Part of the reason is that it has no rollover at all; pressing two keys simply combined the keycodes. So the software would watch for a full key up between any two keypresses, which means you had to do a very deliberate one key at a time cadence. paul From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 12:31:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <1093539719.5841.203124345@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, David Vohs wrote: > Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating system to save > their, uhhh, assets can make such a comfortable keyboard! Go figure! It's the least they could do to help you get through the horrible experience of using their software. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 12:32:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > And, although they are incredibly cool looking, the metal keyboards they use > at some fancy trade show kiosks. They have to be durable to withstand the meatheads that like to pound on them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 26 12:28:44 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <200408261739.NAA11985@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > List the best keyboards you have ever used. First on that list is a Symbolics Lisp Machine keyboard. I don't know their nomenclature, but it was the one in a rounded sort of case, physically reminiscent of... #2: Sun type-3. In good shape, of course. The Sun type-3 is notable in that when in good shape it's one of the best I've ever had the pleasure to use, but when in bad shape it's one of the worst. Old HP pocket calculators. (That style of keyboard would be horrible for typing on, but HP was smart enough to use other kinds of key when making keyboards for typing on. The calculator keyboards were great for what they were used for.) The TeleVideo 950 or 925 (the keyboards are almost identical). There was a time when I considered the Hazeltine 1500 keyboard to be top-of-the-line. Today, I cannot understand how I ever felt that way. My Korg C-3500. Soft touch, decent velocity sensing, full size. I rate this one better than the one I learned on, which was a real mechanical, because it's more uniform and reliable. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 26 12:42:17 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: <200408261742.KAA11097@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, David Vohs wrote: > >> Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating system to save >> their, uhhh, assets can make such a comfortable keyboard! Go figure! > >It's the least they could do to help you get through the horrible >experience of using their software. Hi Just remember, a picture is worth a thousand words. So what if they are all the wrong words? Learn to work with it. Dwight From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Aug 26 12:43:32 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826114909.03427cc0@192.168.0.1> References: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.2.0.9.2.20040826114909.03427cc0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040826114909.03427cc0@192.168.0.1> Ed Kelleher wrote: > I'm sure there are much better editors, but > I have TECO on every OS I regularly work with: > WinXXX, Dos, RT11, RSX11M, > and some I don't, RSTS, Linux, and VMS. I think I'll stick to VIM on Linux, ConTEXT (www.context.cx) and PFE on Windows and Zap (zap.tartarus.org) on RISC OS, thanks. VIM and Pico are great for making quick changes to files, while ConTEXT, PFE and Zap are much nicer for all-out editing and rewrites. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'm not dead; I'm metabolically challenged. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 26 12:52:49 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412E3F91.9644.5829320C@localhost> Am 26 Aug 2004 10:32 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > > And, although they are incredibly cool looking, the metal keyboards they use > > at some fancy trade show kiosks. > They have to be durable to withstand the meatheads that like to pound on > them. I have one in my collection - a prototype made for Deutsche Bahn (German Railways). If there's anything to survive a direct nuclear hit, it might be a bunch of cocroaches inside that terminal/kiosk thing. the keybord is sensor only, so no moveable parts at all, made from massive steel mounted on a sturdy steel support. Even the Screen is behind a smash proof glass plate. The only way to get into is by using a grinder and plenty of disks. Anyway, it's only a prototype, since Deutsche Bahn settled for a touch screen aproach (always missalignd) running Windows NT. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 12:55:26 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard References: Message-ID: OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have on your dream keyboard? Mine: Bluetooth wireless or corded USB/PS2 operation with rechargable batteries Works on Mac/PC/Sun/almost anything (Ideally it would come with a breakout kit to build your own adapter. Wishful thinking...) Tactile feedback of an IBM model "M", but with adjustable spring tension (I've seen a keyboard like this somewhere.) Make it heavy like the IBM model M as well. 104 "Windows" keyboard layout, but with control key in the right space, and no Windows logo (Meta key instead of Windows key) How about replaceable control/alt/meta keys depending on what OS you're using? Like the Mac cloverleaf, the Windows key, the Sun meta-key, etc... Secondary set of programmable F-keys on the left hand side, with customizable keycaps. Defeatable mousestick between the G and H keys. I'm hooked on them. Volume control knob. I have one on the logitech keyboard on my windows game PC at home and I use it all the time. Removable top-plate for easier cleaning. Minimal driver. I understand some of the special keys need one, just make it small and unobtrusive. I don't need a task tray icon letting me know if my keyboard is working or not. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Aug 26 13:13:28 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: <0408261813.AA19189@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mark Wickens wrote: > List the best keyboards you have ever used. Right now the keyboard I insist on using is LK201, but that's only because I'm a nut about DEC VTxxx terminals and don't want to use a keyboard whose set of function keys does not directly correspond to the set of VTxxx transmitted escape sequences. I like LK201 better than LK401 because I have no use for the latter's "Alt function" keys, because I don't like how they shrunk from 4 to 2 LEDs, and because LK201 is more sturdy while LK401 is more flimsy. The really interesting keyboard I've used (for Western readers) is the Soviet KOI keyboard. Unfortunately I never got to use the "real deal" (Soviet serial terminals), but I've used the KOI kbd on the BK0010, the Soviet home computer based on the 1801VM1 microprocessor, a Soviet PDP-11 clone, a single chip microprocessor roughly equivalent to an LSI-11. It was a home computer for which you were expected to write all software yourself from the ground up, by entering octal codes at octal addresses (assuming you wanted something other than BASIC or FOCAL that they had in ROM). I really miss that mentality (I still believe every hacker needs to write his own operating system as a rite of passage). Soviet KOI keyboards are really interesting. They are based on KOI, which is the Soviet reinterpretation of ASCII. In Latin mode KOI is identical to ASCII, but thought of differently, in that all characters from 100 octal up are considered Latin letters, so in the mind of a Soviet hacker, '@' is the 0th letter of the Latin alphabet, '[' is the next Latin letter after Z, and the last Latin letter is '_'. In Russian mode characters from 100 octal up are given alternative graphic renditions (Russian letters, not surprisingly). Note that it's the *graphic rendition* of the character that changes, not the character itself; the coded form is the primal form: a compiler will recognise a keyword equally well regardless of whether the tty displays it with the Latin rendition or the Russian rendition. The KOI keyboard was designed around this mentality, i.e., the upper/lower case switch acted on all keys that we considered letters. '{' is the lowercase '['. The layout was different. When we got the first PeeCees I at first couldn't stand their kbd because of the top row layout: how ridiculous it is that '^' (a letter) is on top of '6' (a digit). That drove me nuts. The KOI keyboards were much more rational in that the key layout directly corresponded to the ASCII/KOI chart. The top row keys were in their ASCII/KOI order. The encoding logic was a breeze since with this layout all modifier keys (Ctrl, Shift, upper/lower case switch and the RUS/LAT switch) only had to twiddle bits. MS From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 26 13:14:56 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:19:10 EDT." <5.2.0.9.2.20040826091845.03427af0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200408261814.i7QIEuYV018439@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ed Kelleher wrote: >At 08:29 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >>After, the Symbolics keyboard with the "square, circle and triagle" keys ;-) > > >"triagle" key? Is that for eBay? blah. jet lag. I ment "triangle". This is (imho) the coolest keyboard around. Shift, meta, super, hyper, escape, rub out, symbol, complete, help, abort, plus a key with a *triangle*, a circle and one with a square. you know, "then hit the triangle key" :-) -brad From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 13:21:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have on your > dream keyboard? Mine would have a Jack key and a Coke key. If you pressed them together you got a Jack & Coke. If you wanted to go for the kill you'd just hit the Jack key several times. The next morning you'd press the Coke key. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 26 13:25:55 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Most (all?) Teletypes are pretty awful, but maybe we ought to be a little > forgiving, being mechanical. When we were in high school, Frank McConnell could type at a pretty impressive rate on an ASR33 using (if I recall correctly) just his thumbs and index fingers. He seemed to be able to duplicate the data rate of the incoming characters. The host system would send down a prompt and he would key a command and there was no noticeable pause or break in rhythm between the two. Impressed me anyways... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 26 13:26:19 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040826111934.M32761@shell.lmi.net> > > ...and my car dealership uses WD-40 on automotive hinges (which especially > > up in the cold, salty north doesn't last very long at all). They should be > > the ones with the clue, should they not? ;-P On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > Having observed some of the mechanics in car repair garages in the UK, I > would consider them to be totally lacking in clue! When I erroneously diverted this thread to lubrication, please note that I said "REAL mechanics". I did NOT say "PROFESSIONAL mechanics". Holding a job, such as at a dealership, does not, in and of itself quarantee competence. I was once a professional mechanic (and wrote the book on Honda cars (ISBN:0912528257)) I aspired towards becoming a REAL mechanic. "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Aug 26 13:32:50 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: <0408261832.AA19249@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ed Kelleher wrote: > Worst keyboard: DEC LK201 on VT220 terminals - no key, misplaced > angle bracket <> keys (both on same key), Yeah, that's the only big disadvantage it has. Everything else is great, but here they just screwed up. On VT320, though, there is a setup option to turn the '`~' key into ESC (putting ESC where it belongs to the left of 1), move '`~' down to where the screwy '<>' key is, and put '<>' where they belong on top of ',.'. Needless to say, that's the mode I use. Of course what I would really love would be a Classic keyboard with the original Classic ASCII layout, i.e., ESC immediately to the left of '1', Ctrl immediately to the left of 'A', separate CR and LF keys, separate BS and DEL keys, and all of the previous 4 plus BREAK being in the area where you find Enter and Backspace today. Having the top row keys in ASCII order would be nice too, as would having the kbd send ready ASCII down its wire instead of funky scan codes. MS From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 26 12:53:42 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:05:22 BST." <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <200408261753.SAA00784@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Mark Wickens said: > OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number of> > My list is something like: > > 1. IBM Model M (original buckle-spring technology, still standing the test of > time) I use an IBM keyboard from a 1986 AT - not sure of the k/b model but it's quite nice... > 8. Cherry high end keyboards. Got a couple of them - excellent! Real spring separate keyswitches. Good but expensive. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 26 13:07:15 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:56:10 +0200." <412E081A.5090.57508618@localhost> Message-ID: <200408261807.TAA00948@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Hans Franke" said: > Well, the serial Port on the CE125 was never an official thing. > You had to do assembly to use it. > Your message had me digging out my 1251 and the notes I made all those yeasr ago! The Basic had the following keywords (in mine at least): Code (dec.) 137 COM$ 155 SETCOM 190 OUTSTAT 191 INSTAT which are presumably to do with the serial port. Naturally I switched it on, the internal computer batteries still work but the cassette/printer battery was flat so I've plugged it in to charge up...we'll see what happens. While I was searching I also cam across my original (1978) Tandy/Radio Shack cassette recorder from my TRS-80, seems I *never* throw anything out :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 13:18:54 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: California Garage Sale References: Message-ID: Anyone going to be in Sacremento this weekend? http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_bi_ge/california_garage_sale_1 More info at their web site. http://www.dgs.ca.gov/ I went to the Detroit garage sale last year, there was TONS and TONS of old computer stuff. Transportation was a problem so I only made off with a Unisys PC and a couple of odds and ends. They had a 5150 I had no way of transporting... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: OT: Dream keyboard > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have on your > dream keyboard? > > > Mine: > Bluetooth wireless or corded USB/PS2 operation with rechargable batteries > Works on Mac/PC/Sun/almost anything (Ideally it would come with a breakout > kit to build your own adapter. Wishful thinking...) > Tactile feedback of an IBM model "M", but with adjustable spring tension > (I've seen a keyboard like this somewhere.) > Make it heavy like the IBM model M as well. > 104 "Windows" keyboard layout, but with control key in the right space, and > no Windows logo (Meta key instead of Windows key) > How about replaceable control/alt/meta keys depending on what OS you're > using? Like the Mac cloverleaf, the Windows key, the Sun meta-key, etc... > Secondary set of programmable F-keys on the left hand side, with > customizable keycaps. > Defeatable mousestick between the G and H keys. I'm hooked on them. > Volume control knob. I have one on the logitech keyboard on my windows game > PC at home and I use it all the time. > Removable top-plate for easier cleaning. > Minimal driver. I understand some of the special keys need one, just make it > small and unobtrusive. I don't need a task tray icon letting me know if my > keyboard is working or not. > From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Aug 26 13:43:12 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005e01c48b9c$8a8bbff0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Sellam write: > Mine would have a Jack key and a Coke key. If you pressed > them together you got a Jack & Coke. If you wanted to go for > the kill you'd just hit the Jack key several times. The next > morning you'd press the Coke key. Hmmmm, daydreaming... The Microsoft version, the "Natural Beverage Keyboard USB/IBA". You have to buy a client license for each glass you use. The keyboard oozes turpentine when you press the "Jack" key while in Outlook, until you install hotfix K987666. ;-) From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Aug 26 13:50:55 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: California Garage Sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005f01c48b9d$9e37a630$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Jason wrote: > Anyone going to be in Sacremento this weekend? > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_bi_ > ge/california_garage_sale_1 > > More info at their web site. > > http://www.dgs.ca.gov/ They have eBay auctions for some stuff, too. Check out this, "30 pounds of scissors": http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28171&item=8125664098 I'm still looking for the "sack of hammers" auction... --Patrick :-) From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 26 14:02:11 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412E4FD3.30148.5868B311@localhost> Am 26 Aug 2004 11:21 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have on your > > dream keyboard? > Mine would have a Jack key and a Coke key. If you pressed them together > you got a Jack & Coke. If you wanted to go for the kill you'd just hit > the Jack key several times. The next morning you'd press the Coke key. Jack alone will also do the trick. See, The whole problem on the next day is dehydration (you'll need like some water molecules to split one alcohol). Now, as everyone knows, Jack is again mostly water ... so just drink enough Jack (again) - that's what Woz made the Repeat Key for :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 14:03:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: California Garage Sale In-Reply-To: <005f01c48b9d$9e37a630$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Patrick/VCM SysOp wrote: > Jason wrote: > > Anyone going to be in Sacremento this weekend? > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_bi_ > > ge/california_garage_sale_1 > > > > More info at their web site. > > > > http://www.dgs.ca.gov/ > > They have eBay auctions for some stuff, too. Check out this, "30 pounds of > scissors": > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28171&item=8125664098 > > I'm still looking for the "sack of hammers" auction... --Patrick :-) Now you know where all the scissors they confiscate at airports go. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Aug 26 14:00:07 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> from "Mark Wickens" at Aug 26, 04 09:05:22 am Message-ID: <200408261900.PAA16613@wordstock.com> And thusly Mark Wickens spake: > > OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number of > function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or > pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). > My fav keyboards are the IBM Model "M" and the Commodore 64 keyboard. :) I am not sure what this says but when I first started using VICE quite a long time ago, after not touch a C64 for quite a few years, I was able type on a PC keyboard like it was a C64 one... My fingers just knew where certain keys were, like the double quotation mark (") being shift-2... It is very annoying that VICE now defaults to a PC kayboard map. :( Cheers, Bryan Pope From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 26 14:10:48 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: California Garage Sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_bi_ > > > ge/california_garage_sale_1 > > > > > > More info at their web site. > > > > > > http://www.dgs.ca.gov/ > > > > They have eBay auctions for some stuff, too. Check out this, > "30 pounds of > > scissors": > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28171&item= > 8125664098 > > > > I'm still looking for the "sack of hammers" auction... --Patrick :-) > > Now you know where all the scissors they confiscate at airports go. > I was just looking at some of the auctions too... I'm just imagining the choruses of "Oh God! I forgot my Leatherman!" heard as those were confiscated. From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Aug 26 14:10:47 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:32 2005 Subject: California Garage Sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Now you know where all the scissors they confiscate at airports go. "... what were they thinking, trying to get on board with this?" If anyone bids on a sack of power-test screwdrivers, I want mine back! --f From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 26 14:30:44 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: California Garage Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040826122849.X32761@shell.lmi.net> > > Now you know where all the scissors they confiscate at airports go. On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I was just looking at some of the auctions too... I'm just imagining > the choruses of "Oh God! I forgot my Leatherman!" heard as those were > confiscated. There is a camping store near here that has bins full of swiss army knives that they bought at airport auction. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 26 14:06:25 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:56:10 +0200." <412E081A.5090.57508618@localhost> Message-ID: <200408261906.UAA02202@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, I said: > "Hans Franke" said: >> Well, the serial Port on the CE125 was never an official thing. >> You had to do assembly to use it. >> > Your message had me digging out my 1251 and the notes I made all those > yeasr ago! > Naturally I switched it on, the internal computer batteries still work > but the cassette/printer battery was flat so I've plugged it in to > charge up...we'll see what happens. A followup: when I looked, the last program I loaded (a collection of utilities) was still in the memory. I last used the machine about ten years ago, must be some kind of record :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 26 15:05:12 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> from "Mark Wickens" at Aug 26, 2004 09:05:22 AM Message-ID: <200408262005.i7QK5CH0012588@onyx.spiritone.com> > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number of > function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or > pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). Apple Extended II ADB keyboard (I've been using the same one on my 8500/180, G4/450 AGP, and G5 2x2, though the last two are via a ADB-to-USB converter) Older SGI PS/2 keyboard (I got this with an SGI o2, and it has the best feel of any PS/2 keyboard I've ever seen) Cheap no-name AT keyboard from '91 (I used to hate this as it the space bar would stick in the summer when the AC was turned up to high. It's nice and solid, and my standard keyboard for everything but my Mac, for about the last 7 years has been used via an AT-to-PS/2 converter) LK401 (keys are a bit mushy for my taste, but I like the shape, and it has all the keys I need, I also use LK201's and LK451's. Basically I like a good solid keyboard that won't flex, is a bit on the heavy side, and has good keys, none of those modern mushy ones for me. Zane From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Aug 26 16:00:15 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <200408252248.PAA10586@clulw009.amd.com> <1093515426.16127.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00d301c48baf$c43ebc80$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 22:48, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >From: "Fred Cisin" > > > > > >Have you tried JIF with naval jelly? > > > > > > > Hi > > Is that in place of strawberry jam? > > Dwight > > At least he didn't say navel jelly... > > J. As used by the admiral's daughter..... Geoff. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 27 13:32:32 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040826093236.01e687e8@slave> References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <20040826223133.HPLC15743.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Somebody who liked Northgate Omni keyboards, there's another source. Keep a eye for Zenith keyboards, they use same switch assembly snapped through steel plate and pins soldered to the circuit board. they have same feel (fainter clickness compared to CLATTERING model Ms) and keyboard is heavy. They are usuually found for XT and AT zenith machines that are models 1xx (8088), 2xx (286 or 386sx) and 3xx (386dx) era. There was one or two toshiba models used hall-effect keyboard, means liquid spill won't faze them. Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 27 13:32:32 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <20040826223136.HPLG15743.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Model M is what I always reach for. And few spares for parts. Keytronics with horizontal enter key layout. If I have third choice, decent keyboard that has similar feel to keytronics, example silent IBM keyboards, Dell etc. Cheers, Wizard From aek at spies.com Thu Aug 26 17:48:59 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Burroughs Part Numbers Message-ID: <20040826224859.1FD3B3C24@spies.com> > Can anyone out there tell me what Burroughs part numbers look like www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/icData From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Aug 26 17:56:02 2004 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <20040826225602.GA26420@RawFedDogs.net> 1. The keyboards that came with IBM 3179 terminals. 24 PF keys, Clear key, Erase to EOF key, backtab key, newline key and enter key, plus numerous others. I love the feel of the keys. Okay, it had no esc key, the left shift key was way too small, the < and > were on the same key and that key was where part of the left shift key should have been. The feel of the key and having all the keys that should be there(the ESC key wasn't needed with an IBM mainframe) made up for those deficiencies. I wish I could strap one of those keyboards to my pc for use with a 3270 emulator. 2. As far as PC keyboards I think the one I have been using for years may be an IBM Model M that folks have been talking about. It has a feel very similar to the 3179 keyboards, but no where near as many keys. I got it back in the 486 days by accident. My previous PC keyboard died. I stoped by a little computer shop to get a replacement. They were out of stock but had a used IBM keyboard that they let me borrow until they got more in. They called when they got more keybaords in. I told them that I really liked the feel of the loner they gave me and they told me to keep it. I've been using it ever since until recently. 3. Recently I've reluctantly given my favorite IBM keyboard a break and have been trying out a Boundless 108 key keyboard. It has a "Do" key and a "Help" key along with a few extra function keys which make it nice for telnetting to my VAX from my Linux box. I like all the extra keys but the feel just isn't the same as the IBM. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 26 18:16:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <00a801c48b85$3b75bea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> <00a801c48b85$3b75bea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2004, at 8:56 AM, John Allain wrote: > Geekmode > Calma GDS CAD keyboard. Big, boxy, with toggle switches > and lights. still looking for one of these. > John A. > > I worked for Calma and made those keyboards... Do you remember the loud clank it would make each time the computer accepted a keystroke.. There was a solenoid inside there From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:23:57 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> from "Ed Kelleher" at Aug 26, 4 07:16:09 am Message-ID: > Worst keyboard: DEC LK201 on VT220 terminals - no key, misplaced > angle bracket <> keys (both on same key), reduced size shift key so you > always missed it and hit something else. A TECO nightmare. Plus you > couldn't get a cup of coffee within 6 inches of it before it would crap out. The feel is pretty bad too. Mind you it's a cheap membrane design inside, so what do you expect. The VT100 keyboard was much nicer (the same contact design was used on the oriignal TRS-80 Model 1, HP85/86/87 and at least one HP terminal) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:29:19 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 26, 4 09:35:50 am Message-ID: > I believe the <> thing had something to do with international versions > of the keyboard layout, but I don't remember the details and I'm not > sure it made any sense in retrospect. Oh that reminds me of the most annoying layout I ever had to use. The HP HP-HIL keyboard, UK version (I used it on an HP9000/340, but I guess it turns up elsewhere). Keys were just plain in the wrong place. I can't remember the real problems, but it was things like ESC being a shifted function and positioned in the bottom left corner (to the left of the shift key??) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:38:32 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: <200408261807.TAA00948@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Aug 26, 4 07:07:15 pm Message-ID: > > Well, the serial Port on the CE125 was never an official thing. > > You had to do assembly to use it. > > > > Your message had me digging out my 1251 and the notes I made all those > yeasr ago! The Basic had the following keywords (in mine at least): > > Code (dec.) 137 COM$ > 155 SETCOM > 190 OUTSTAT > 191 INSTAT > which are presumably to do with the serial port. I have the official serial port add-on for the PC1500 with the user manual -- somewhere (I know where the unit is, of course). I seem to remember those keywords were used with it -- COM$ returend the current RS232 parameters (baud/bits/parity/etc), SETCOM set them, INSTAT and OUTSTAT were either something to do with the handshake lines or used to determine if the port was ready (I forget which) Character input and output was done with PRINT# and INPUT# (I think it was channel 8 and channel 9 was the centronics port, but it's been many years). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:15:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408260852.52620.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> from "Mark Wickens" at Aug 26, 4 08:52:52 am Message-ID: > Maybe someone could point out the disadvantages of using it as a cleaner, > because I clean/protect everything with it, however I don't *lubricate* Well, it's hydrocarbon-based, so it may attack some plastics and more likely rubber [1]. Also, it will probably leave some deposit (thw waxy part of the WD40) on the surface. It depends what you want to clean with it. It's probably OK on most computer cases, etc, but I wouldn't use it on my camera lens or the heads of my RK05 :-) [1] I once had to soak a beraring (the carriage bearing from a Sanders 700 printer (yes, it's on-topic)) in oil. This is a tubular part with a broze bush at each end. Anyway, I tried putting a plastic bag over one end, securing it with a rubber band. Then I filled the bearing with oil. Enough oil got on the outside that about 30 seconds later the rubber benad disintegrated, the bag came off, and the oil went all over the bench. I tried a couple more times with the same result... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:40:44 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <0408261813.AA19189@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Aug 26, 4 06:13:28 pm Message-ID: > something other than BASIC or FOCAL that they had in ROM). I really > miss that mentality (I still believe every hacker needs to write his > own operating system as a rite of passage). Oh well, I'm not a hacker, then... I've never written an OS, or a language interpretter/compiler, or anything even reasonably complicated... I have wire-wrapped my own processor, though (I don't mean making a board using a comercial microprocessor, although I've doen that too, I mean wiring up gates and flip-flops to make a very special-purpose processor). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:21:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> from "Mark Wickens" at Aug 26, 4 09:05:22 am Message-ID: > > OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, number of > function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or > pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). In no real order : Best : Original IBM PC (the clicky, capacitive, matrix one) Tandy M100 (Amzingly good for such a small machine) Old HP calculators - -35, 67, etc (OK, not suitable for typing on, but they're a lot better than any other calculator keyboard I've used) ICL Termiprinter (The encoding scheme is ingenious, and it has a good feel) Worst : Science of Cambridge MK14 (If you thought the ZX81 was bad you should try this!) Sinclair ZX81 Sinclair Spectrum (The one that feels like dead flesh!) Sinclair QL (Can you tell I don't think Sinclair ever sold a useable keyboard?) Apple ][ (Feel is OK, but there's no up and down arrows, it can't produce lower case, etc). HP9831 (It's a Chicklet keyboard. A similar one was used on some HP9825s, but my 9825 has the later, full-travel keyboard) IBM PCjr (That IR link was ridiculous!) Original PET Most ingenious mechanism : HP9810 (differential transformers etched in the PCB traces, one of which is damped when you press a key). -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 19:37:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > Apple ][ (Feel is OK, but there's no up and down arrows, it can't produce > lower case, etc). The same reason I would choose the Coco 2 and 3 keyboards :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sastevens at earthlink.net Thu Aug 26 19:53:28 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <20040825195753.480ed56f.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040826195328.15e9b037.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:14:16 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the > > outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw > > sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside. > > Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost > certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper > transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes). > The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally. My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 20:11:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? Message-ID: Say, I don't believe we've heard from Joe since the hurricane in Florida. I hope he's OK. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 27 16:19:14 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040826195328.15e9b037.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <20040827011813.JMPB4758.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse > connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a > slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally. To be honest, pigtailed fuses is major pain in butt to locate new parts and replace. We stock 95% of typical fuses at our TV shop. > My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM > supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit > the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely > removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case. UGH! At least have metal cage around that power supply!? By the way, many of them were made by Zenith for IBM power supplies. Zenith switching power supplies are awful and bizerre design. Cheers, Wizard From cb at mythtech.net Thu Aug 26 21:19:54 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE Message-ID: >My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM >supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit >the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely >removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case. I converted a bunch of IBM ATs into AMD K6-2 machines. And all still run happily today, whereas others built at the same time made with newer AT power supplies, all have died, and almost without exception, it has been either the power supply itself, or something damaged from the power supply. -chris From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 26 21:12:37 2004 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? References: Message-ID: <000d01c48bdb$58b56c80$3262d6d1@computer> > > Say, I don't believe we've heard from Joe since the hurricane in Florida. > I hope he's OK. > I blipped him last weekend. His home and town were hit with about 115 mph winds of storm Charlie. They sustained some falling/flying tree damage, had no power for awhile and a working through a big mess to clean up. They're all ok and he said he hoped to be caught up enough this week to broadcast live again but I guess not yet. He also said that Glenn had some damage down there.. Best wishes to anyone caught up in that hell. BTW He did say he was impressed with the DEC's and big blue INTEL's resistance to high speed winds. :) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 26 21:55:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408270312.XAA15052@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have > on your dream keyboard? Soft keycaps - make every keycap a small (64x64?) display. Rearrangeable layout - some kind of mechanical setup such that keys can be moved around. (I can imagine something like a 1mm sawtooth on the edge of each key, so that with a surround the key positions are frozen, but if the surround is removed they can be rearranged.) Getting the rearrangeable layout and still arranging the necessary signals to each key would be interesting, but I believe it could be solved. Perhaps there could be power carried along the sides of every key, with some kind of optical free-space communication (Ethernet over light through air, anyone?) between the keys and the keyboard controller. Soft-keycaps has a number of benefits. Push the shift key and most of the keys on the keyboard switch to their shifted versions. Load a Dvorak keybaord layout and the letters all move around. Help yourself learn to touchtype by making all the keycaps go blank. Run a typing tutor and it could make the key you want to type next flash. Gospodin Sokolov could switch between Cyrillic keycaps and ASCII keycaps. (They'd need software help, of course, but that's a SMOP. Given the hardware, the software can be created.) It would be a bit expensive, but flexibility is. > Mine: > Bluetooth wireless or corded USB/PS2 operation with rechargable > batteries *shiver* As long as you can disable bluetooth in hardware. I do _not_ want any radio capability! It's a security disaster waiting to happen. > Works on Mac/PC/Sun/almost anything (Ideally it would come with a > breakout kit to build your own adapter. Wishful thinking...) Indeed, especially since many of those are incompatible in fairly fundamental electrical senses. (Suns use RS232 timing with TTL signal levels. Macs use ADB. Peecees use...well, I don't really know _what_ peecees use (for the PS/2 style), as I've (thankfully!) never had occasion to care, but I'm pretty sure it's electrically incompatible with Suns, ADB, and USB.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 26 22:26:40 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Burroughs Part Numbers In-Reply-To: <20040826224859.1FD3B3C24@spies.com> Message-ID: > > Can anyone out there tell me what Burroughs part numbers look like > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/icData That's the poop. Thanks! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 26 22:45:09 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: $2 Sale, or $1 if it needs to be. Message-ID: OK, time to clear out more junk. Each of the following is $2.00/each, plus shipping from 10512: 1) Colecovision steering wheel Expansion Module, with extra joystick. 2) Some sort of 68000 based Western Electric AT&T modem board for a PeeCee - it actually looks like pretty much a standalone 68K based thing, with some WE chips and three connections to the outside world. 56K CSU? 3) PeeCee card with four serial ports and three bidirectional parallel ports, with cables. Unknown maker. For the I/O junkie. 4) AT&T KDB301 keyboard, I think for that Unix PC thing. It has a DE9 connector. 5) Miniscribe model 8425 hard disk on a PeeCee card (Hardcard lookalike). 6) AT&T American Bell (a Baby Bell I never heard of) model EASI-1B synchronous to asynchronous RS-232 convertor. A true black box of magic. 7) Pre-Borland copy of Brief v1.33 editor, with original disk. 8) Intel PLDshell PLD design software, still sealed. I think this only does Intel chips, so don't get too excited. 9) Book, using the Horizon Spreadsheet with the Unix Operating System, by D. H. Beil. A fairly disgusting early 80s spreadsheet. Stuff is untested (including the book), but generally in decent shape. I take cash, checks, MOs, Paypal (but NOT to this email account! Please ask!), coins, favors, and begging. I might add a little on to shipping for my time ("handling"). First come, first served, but I can change the rules if I either like or dislike you. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 23:14:39 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 26, 4 05:37:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Apple ][ (Feel is OK, but there's no up and down arrows, it can't produce > > lower case, etc). > > The same reason I would choose the Coco 2 and 3 keyboards :( Eh? The CoCo 3 has all 4 arrows on it (I'm looking at one). It's also scanned in software (unlike the Apple ][) so can produce lower case if required. The CoCo 2 can't _display_ lower case as standard, but the 3 certainly can, and anyway that's not a keyboard issue. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 23:17:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040826195328.15e9b037.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 26, 4 07:53:28 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:14:16 +0100 (BST) > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the > > > outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw > > > sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside. > > > > Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost > > certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper > > transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes). > > > > The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse > connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a > slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally. > > My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM > supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit > the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely > removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 23:18:58 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040826195328.15e9b037.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 26, 4 07:53:28 pm Message-ID: > > Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost > > certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper > > transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes). > > > > The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse > connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a No idea. > slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally. Nor have I, actually. Annother curious one is the fuse in the PSU of a Canon SX Laser printer (HP Laserjet 2, etc). It's in fuse clips at one end of the PSU board, and is accessible without removing the metal case from the PSU. Canon don't supply any parts for the internals of the PSU (IIRC even the case is not available separtely), there's no PSU schemmatic in the official service manual. But the fuse is a listed spare part. Again, I've never seen it blow. I don't thionk I've ever seen the fuse in the mains side of an SMPSU blow unless there were other faults in the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 23:23:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: What fun from a Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <20040827011813.JMPB4758.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Aug 27, 4 09:19:14 pm Message-ID: > > > The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse > > connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a > > slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally. > > To be honest, pigtailed fuses is major pain in butt to locate new > parts and replace. We stock 95% of typical fuses at our TV shop. Yes, but considering you weren't supposed to replace this fuse (it was inside a case seccured with tamperproof screws, did IBM really think this mattered? > > > My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM > > supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit > > the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely > > removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case. > > UGH! At least have metal cage around that power supply!? I have a commercial AT clone (made by a company called AES) which has an open-PCB SMPSU at one side. No cover over it at all. No, I don't like this design at all. > By the way, many of them were made by Zenith for IBM power supplies. > Zenith switching power supplies are awful and bizerre design. What's wrong with them. I seem to remember tracing out schematics of the PSUs in my PCs, and I didn't think they were that odd. They're better than those infernal Boschert 2-stage ones.... -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 26 23:42:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Apple ][ (Feel is OK, but there's no up and down arrows, it can't produce > > > lower case, etc). > > > > The same reason I would choose the Coco 2 and 3 keyboards :( > > Eh? The CoCo 3 has all 4 arrows on it (I'm looking at one). It's also > scanned in software (unlike the Apple ][) so can produce lower case if > required. The CoCo 2 can't _display_ lower case as standard, but the 3 > certainly can, and anyway that's not a keyboard issue. Sorry. My bad. But didn't it still lack something crucial, like a CTRL key or something equally obvious? I remember bitching about this a while ago and you coming to its defence :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 27 00:12:06 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Hex bits of sufficient length? In-Reply-To: <200408251915.MAA10471@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408251915.MAA10471@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827001001.049bf300@pc> Although there are plenty of hex-end security bit sets out there for $10, are there any that are about three inches long instead of 3/4 inch? The set I bought quickly un-tapers to the thickness of the hex end, making it useless for any deep well containing the screw. - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 27 02:18:22 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, > number of function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more > esoteric designs) or pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really > get off on Vaxen). Original IBM peecee - nice and clacky Apple Lisa, same reason and therefore ditto early Macs Later model RM 380Z (black one) ACT Sirius 1/Victor 9000 Acorn ACW VT1xx (wish I could peecee-ify it!) DEC LK201 (lack of ESC worrieth me not, I'm an EDT-head :) Atari Mega ST keyboards CPT 8520 (currently dead) Mac Design II keyboards (early fat ones) Apple ][GS NeXTstation (another one I want to peecee-ify) My current peecee keyboard (compaq heavy edition from a few years ago) Apple ][ and ][e There's probably more but you get the idea :) Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 27 02:18:53 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: FW: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: 26 August 2004 17:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used > ever!) > > > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > > 1) Sinclair ZX series > 2) Coco 1 > 3) Coco 2 > 4) Aquarius (my first) > 5) Original PET Sharp MZ80K Memotech MTX (this pains me but they weren't the best) Any lightweight/cheap membrane job (see current peecee manufacturers) Kinnell, I can't think of any more right now, and that can't be right :) Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 27 02:19:20 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Vohs > Sent: 26 August 2004 18:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Best keyboards you've used ever! > > 2. The Original Macintosh keyboard. > 3. The Tandy 100/102/200 keyboards. Yes, I'd forgotten about those. The 100 one is excellent, and therefore by association so is the NEC equivalent. > Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating system to save > their, uhhh, assets can make such a comfortable keyboard! Go figure! I suspect they had as much input in the design of that as I did :) Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Aug 27 02:20:08 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick/VCM SysOp > Sent: 26 August 2004 19:43 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: OT: Dream keyboard > > Hmmmm, daydreaming... The Microsoft version, the "Natural Beverage > Keyboard USB/IBA". You have to buy a client license for each glass > you use. The keyboard oozes turpentine when you press the "Jack" key > while in Outlook, until you install hotfix K987666. ;-) Heh, I'd like a keyboard with all of these: An ANY key Separate F1 for when the keyboard is missing. An 'I know what I'm doing' key A 'just fucking do it!' key And a cluster of ctrl-alt-del keys to make 3-fingered salutes easier to do :) Cheers w From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 02:35:12 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I have wire-wrapped my own processor, though (I don't mean making a board > using a comercial microprocessor, although I've doen that too, I mean > wiring up gates and flip-flops to make a very special-purpose processor). I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Dumb luck beats sound planning every time. Trust me. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 02:52:05 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: FW: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8118ece44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message "Adrian Graham" wrote: > Kinnell, I can't think of any more right now, and that can't be right :) OK, I'll add to the list - any keyboard (well, anything electronic) made by BTC Taiwan (www.btc.com.tw). "Quality control? Wossat then?". They've managed to produce keyboards that look like normal PC keyboards, but feel like the old dead-flesh Sinclair keyboards when you type on them... Just for extra points, they've also built DVD and CD-RW drives that had weak lasers, causing rewrite operations to fail rather spectacularly. From what I've heard, one dealer had a 3ft stack of drives, all with the same fault, namely "no rewrite functionality"... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... One way to better your lot is to do a lot better... From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 27 02:50:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408270758.DAA26346@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I have wire-wrapped my own processor, though [...] > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it > though... I once took a hardware design course where we ended up building basically a tiny computer with a 4-bit word size. Not much RAM, since RAM addresses were also only 4 bits, but we _were_ building this out of discrete logic DIPs on breadboards. (The 4-bit-by-16-entry RAM chip and the ALU were probably the most complex chips involved.) It was a lot of fun. It also rather spoiled me for breadboards, as the breadboards we used were _really_ _nice_. Instead of being the wish-board style, plastic grid with metal connectors below it that you push stripped wire ends into, each DIP socket was brought out to individual posts, one per pin, with (gold-plated!) female connectors. The jumper wires ended in little (also gold-plated) metal stackable connectors, not unlike banana plugs shrunk down (and done solid - without the springy sides so characteristic of banana plugs), cylinders with a smaller concentric cylinder offset, so as to form a male connector on one side and a female on the other (hence the stackability). Each wire had one of these little stackable connectors on each end. There were also base stations with power supplies and clock generators built in (brought out to similar connector pins).... I shudder to think what those things must have cost the university, but I'd say they were well worth it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 03:01:07 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:21:49 BST." Message-ID: <200408270801.JAA05238@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > Worst : > Science of Cambridge MK14 (If you thought the ZX81 was bad you should try > this!) I replaced mine about a week after I built the kit - *easily* the worst I've ever used! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 02:59:10 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:38:32 BST." Message-ID: <200408270759.IAA05191@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > Well, the serial Port on the CE125 was never an official thing. > > > You had to do assembly to use it. > > > > > > > Your message had me digging out my 1251 and the notes I made all those > > yeasr ago! The Basic had the following keywords (in mine at least): > > > > Code (dec.) 137 COM$ > > 155 SETCOM > > 190 OUTSTAT > > 191 INSTAT > > which are presumably to do with the serial port. > > I have the official serial port add-on for the PC1500 with the user > manual -- somewhere (I know where the unit is, of course). I seem to > remember those keywords were used with it -- COM$ returend the current > RS232 parameters (baud/bits/parity/etc), SETCOM set them, INSTAT and > OUTSTAT were either something to do with the handshake lines or used to > determine if the port was ready (I forget which) > > Character input and output was done with PRINT# and INPUT# (I think it > was channel 8 and channel 9 was the centronics port, but it's been many > years). Thanks for that, I've saved the info and will have a play when I get time. When that'll be I don't know, I've just received some old FigForth listings* to scan in or, probably, re-type. (PDP11 and Z80 if anyone wants to know) * Courtesy of the FigUK library who have a lot of old stuff. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Aug 27 05:48:53 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: <0408261813.AA19189@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040827064711.035a8668@192.168.0.1> At 07:40 PM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >I have wire-wrapped my own processor, though (I don't mean making a board >using a comercial microprocessor, although I've doen that too, I mean >wiring up gates and flip-flops to make a very special-purpose processor). That'll do till the real thing comes along. Still use a Gardner Denver wire wrapper I got in 1972. :-) Ed From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Aug 27 05:52:58 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040827065130.00a41d48@192.168.0.1> At 09:11 PM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >Say, I don't believe we've heard from Joe since the hurricane in Florida. >I hope he's OK. I emailed him offlist the day after and haven't heard back from him. Not sure where Joe is exactly but I emailed another @cfl.rr.com person and they said Charlie missed them by 50 miles. Ed From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 27 06:14:50 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: <16685.59190.979000.289286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 26, 4 09:35:50 am Message-ID: <412F33CA.3689.5BE32D98@localhost> Am 27 Aug 2004 0:29 meinte Tony Duell: > > I believe the <> thing had something to do with international versions > > of the keyboard layout, but I don't remember the details and I'm not > > sure it made any sense in retrospect. It's the standard layout for German keyboards. I find it quite conveniant ... and way more logical: shift-',' is ';' and shift-'.' is ':' Same as on classic (German) typewriters. '<' and '>' have not been available. So the lower left of the alpha secion was used ... and when it comes to HTML/XML, I like it quite much that I need shift only half the time, also, it's always the same key ... logical to me. I would love it the other brackets where also made the same way. Oh, of yourse, on a PC Keyboard, they can only be accessed via ALT-GR, since almost everywhere in Europe, some keys have been needed for additional character(s) - 3 1/2 here in German :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 27 06:25:59 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: <200408270312.XAA15052@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: Message-ID: <412F3667.21801.5BED65CE@localhost> Am 26 Aug 2004 22:55 meinte der Mouse: > > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have > > on your dream keyboard? > Soft keycaps - make every keycap a small (64x64?) display. Has already been made ... early 80s, a keyboard for the PC, Ok, the display was 8x8 pixel, still, you had you configurable keyboard - The labels even changed according when pressing Shift, Alt, Ctrl - I think they even had two more 'shift' keys. > Rearrangeable layout - some kind of mechanical setup such that keys can > be moved around. (I can imagine something like a 1mm sawtooth on the > edge of each key, so that with a surround the key positions are frozen, > but if the surround is removed they can be rearranged.) Go to your next PC store, and get yourself a ZBoard http://www.zboard.com/us/index.html > It would be a bit expensive, but flexibility is. Oh yes, it was. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 27 06:29:18 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <412F372E.20568.5BF06C95@localhost> Am 27 Aug 2004 8:20 meinte Adrian Graham: > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick/VCM SysOp > > Hmmmm, daydreaming... The Microsoft version, the "Natural Beverage > > Keyboard USB/IBA". You have to buy a client license for each glass > > you use. The keyboard oozes turpentine when you press the "Jack" key > > while in Outlook, until you install hotfix K987666. ;-) > Heh, I'd like a keyboard with all of these: > An ANY key > Separate F1 for when the keyboard is missing. > An 'I know what I'm doing' key A 'just fucking do it!' key And > a cluster of ctrl-alt-del keys to make 3-fingered salutes easier to do :) Well, back in the old time, when there was a Computer Museum in Boston, they had ANY-Keys and PANIC-Buttons in their gift shop. I thought it's cool. And in fact, the keycaps did perfectly fit on a IBM-PC keboard. So F1 became 'Panic' and ESC 'Any Key' on my keyboard. *G* Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 27 00:22:03 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Toshiba 3200 questions (wireless?) In-Reply-To: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007001c48a50$54276060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827002014.04a155b0@pc> At 10:05 PM 8/24/2004, Jay West wrote: >2) I want this thing to work on my home wireless network. I'm assuming there >are no ISA wireless cards, especially with DOS drivers. So I was thinking >Xircom pocket ethernet adapter and a wireless bridge. Anyone have any better >ideas? Check eBay. The older ones may not be WiFi but they may work nice, especially old Aironet equipment. If the seller is honest, they'll be careful not to claim it's WiFi. Dan Lanciani may also be able to hook you up with some, including software and tools. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 27 00:26:24 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> At 03:07 AM 8/25/2004, der Mouse wrote: >I did not, alas, find anything like real peanut butter (which to me >means "ground-up peanuts", preferably ground up at the time and place >of sale - while a bit of salt is an acceptable adulteration, I draw the >line at anything further). They suck out the peanut oil to sell it at a higher price than the hydrogenated soybean, cottonseed or canola oil they substitute in order to keep it solid at room temperature. Real peanut butter separates on its own, requiring you to stir it before consumption when you return from the store. So it's also about laziness. - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 27 06:43:56 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> Heh, I'd like a keyboard with all of these: >>> >>> An ANY key Actually the Gateway "Any" key keyboard was quite nice with the full progammability...reminded me of the Tek Terminals I used to commit some mischief with! From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 27 07:12:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> Message-ID: >>> At 03:07 AM 8/25/2004, der Mouse wrote: >>> >I did not, alas, find anything like real peanut butter >>> (which to me >>> >means "ground-up peanuts", preferably ground up at the >>> time and place >>> >of sale - while a bit of salt is an acceptable >>> adulteration, I draw the >>> >line at anything further). >>> >>> They suck out the peanut oil to sell it at a higher price >>> than the hydrogenated soybean, cottonseed or canola oil >>> they substitute in order to keep it solid at room temperature. >>> >>> Real peanut butter separates on its own, requiring you to >>> stir it before consumption when you return from the store. >>> So it's also about laziness. >>> Go to a decent Harvest Festival [there are many on the East coast US]! While peanut butter is much more common at the southern ones, it can be found further north. A completely different taste, but as pointed out, it seperates almost immediately and does not "look good". From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 27 07:33:14 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:33 2005 Subject: CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412F462A.15141.5C2AF63D@localhost> Am 27 Aug 2004 8:35 meinte Philip Pemberton: > In message > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I have wire-wrapped my own processor, though (I don't mean making a board > > using a comercial microprocessor, although I've doen that too, I mean > > wiring up gates and flip-flops to make a very special-purpose processor). > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... Got the docs somewhere? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 27 08:58:39 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard References: <412F3667.21801.5BED65CE@localhost> Message-ID: <005b01c48c3d$f5412f00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Dream keyboard? Simple. One that could connect to anything, IBM, DEC, ADB, Sun, Palm, RS232 for starters. John A. From ikvsabre at comcast.net Fri Aug 27 09:19:16 2004 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: floptical drives In-Reply-To: <20040819101904.J78985@shell.lmi.net> References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040819101904.J78985@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200408271019160093.2DF14DCC@smtp.comcast.net> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 8/19/2004 at 10:23 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Hmm, my first ever floptical drive just landed on the doorstep amongst a >> pile of hardware. Never seen one before now, and it seems there's very >> little info on the web about the technology. > >It didn't exactly take over the market. Which is a shame. The high price tag probably killed them. I remember the drives going for around $200. A couple years later, ZIP drives came out at around the same price for 5 time the capacity. Joe From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Aug 27 10:13:06 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: Teleray T1061 keyboard (may have also been used on the 10T; I don't remember). Keys had good travel (for my fingers). Keyboard was light and detached from the monitor. The "important" keys were in the "right" positions and sizes. Even better, we had the source code to the terminal (6502 based) and made local modifications to suit our needs. Anyone have a working one? John From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 27 10:54:39 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: DECpc 320P Message-ID: <412F593F.80503@sbcglobal.net> Anybody have any interest in one of these little buggers? It's in New Haven, CT, 06520. Make me an offer. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Aug 27 10:27:50 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408261700.i7QH03fO027043@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408261700.i7QH03fO027043@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:23 -0500 8/27/04, Mark Tapley wrote: >From: "John Allain" >Subject: Re: Best keyboards you've used ever! > >the Workhorse > IBM model M with ps/2 connectivity > >the Beauty > Apple MacIntosh ADB #1, where the keyboard > is hardly bigger than the keycaps. > >..... > >honorable mention > DEC lk201. It needs the custom edit/edt/tpu editor and custom DEC > terminal stand, etc. But great in that environment. > >John A. What he said. Exactly. Favorite keyboard I've never had the privilege to use: I have a picture on my wall. PS-2 connector, goes to a small keyboard unit. Unit says "Microsoft" on upper left corner and "intel inside" on upper right. The only three keys on it bear the legends: :-) Worst keyboard is anything with the little eraserhead pointing device in the middle. Distracts from typing, useless for pointing. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From emu at ecubics.com Fri Aug 27 11:58:25 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: <200408261700.i7QH03fO027043@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <412F6831.5080802@ecubics.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > Favorite keyboard I've never had the privilege to use: > > I have a picture on my wall. PS-2 connector, goes to a small keyboard > unit. Unit says "Microsoft" on upper left corner and "intel inside" on > upper right. The only three keys on it bear the legends: > > > Where did you get this one ? Pictures/scans ? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 27 12:08:21 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> Message-ID: <200408271708.NAA27698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Real peanut butter separates on its own, requiring you to stir it > before consumption when you return from the store. Only if you insist on keeping it at room temperature. I keep mine in the fridge, and never need to stir it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 27 09:40:37 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040827093818.04afe638@pc> At 07:12 AM 8/27/2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >Go to a decent Harvest Festival [there are many on the East coast US]! >While peanut butter is much more common at the southern ones, it can be >found further north. A completely different taste, but as pointed out, it >seperates almost immediately and does not "look good". Here in Wisconsin, I've never had trouble finding "real" only-salt-added peanut butter in jars on the shelf. I can't imagine any part of the US that wouldn't have it in an ordinary grocery store, and certainly health-food stores carry varieties as well as many that have their own grinders. - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 27 12:41:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Said.... >>> Worst keyboard is anything with the little eraserhead >>> pointing device in the middle. Distracts from typing, >>> useless for pointing. Although I hate them too...I have found they are the only worksable solution with everything is moving [e.g. while standing on the metro...] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 27 13:43:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Worst keyboard is anything with the little eraserhead > >>> pointing device in the middle. Distracts from typing, > >>> useless for pointing. > > Although I hate them too...I have found they are the only worksable solution > with everything is moving [e.g. while standing on the metro...] As if the invention of the mouse wasn't bad enough, the little red pointer is the worst atrocity to be foisted upon computer users ever since. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 27 13:46:41 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <200408271708.NAA27698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> <200408271708.NAA27698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6F811FD3-F859-11D8-93B9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 27, 2004, at 10:08 AM, der Mouse wrote: >> Real peanut butter separates on its own, requiring you to stir it >> before consumption when you return from the store. > > Only if you insist on keeping it at room temperature. I keep mine in > the fridge, and never need to stir it. Doesn't it get too thick to spread that way? > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 27 13:59:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <6F811FD3-F859-11D8-93B9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <20040824160840.Y87479@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040824200250.04ee7c20@mail.30below.com> <200408250823.EAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.1.2.0.2.20040827000541.04b4b088@pc> <200408271708.NAA27698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6F811FD3-F859-11D8-93B9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200408271905.PAA28307@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Only if you insist on keeping [peanut butter] at room temperature. >> I keep mine in the fridge, and never need to stir it. > Doesn't it get too thick to spread that way? Only if you (a) want a thin layer and (b) are trying to spread it on a substrate with little to no mechanical strength. Oh, and (c) don't let it warm up a little first, of course. :-) Neither (a) nor (b) are generally true of me. When I eat peanut butter, it is usually in the form of a mix of about equal proportions butter, peanut butter, and jam, which is then eaten with bread (real bread, bread with substance and taste to it, not "bread" you can wad a whole slice of up into about half a cubic centimetre) in about 1:1 proportions. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Aug 27 14:27:37 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27A6A208-F85F-11D8-A158-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Philip Pemberton heeft op vrijdag, 27 aug 2004 om 09:35 (Europe/Zurich) het volgende geschreven: > > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... Do try to build it. It can give great satisfaction. On the other hand, if it does not work..... Jos Dreesen From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Aug 27 14:26:29 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Parts needed Message-ID: <009c01c48c6b$c1c15a00$12406b43@66067007> Looking for the following to repair a H-8. IC-2008 calculator keypad or ET-3400 non "A" version keypad From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Fri Aug 27 14:31:21 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1093635081.15392.203208984@webmail.messagingengine.com> > > 2. The Original Macintosh keyboard. > > 3. The Tandy 100/102/200 keyboards. > > Yes, I'd forgotten about those. The 100 one is excellent, and therefore > by > association so is the NEC equivalent. Well, I forgot one on my list: Just about any keyboard that has an "Any" key on it (for "kitch" value). > > Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating system to save > > their, uhhh, assets can make such a comfortable keyboard! Go figure! > > I suspect they had as much input in the design of that as I did :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 27 14:32:24 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Worst pointing device (was: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040827122903.L59574@shell.lmi.net> > > >>> Worst keyboard is anything with the little eraserhead > > >>> pointing device in the middle. Distracts from typing, > > >>> useless for pointing. > > Although I hate them too...I have found they are the only worksable solution > > with everything is moving [e.g. while standing on the metro...] On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > As if the invention of the mouse wasn't bad enough, the little red pointer > is the worst atrocity to be foisted upon computer users ever since. I had a chance to try Lee Felsenstein's version of an "isometric joystick", and it worked reasonably well. I was then very disappointed with the action of the IBM version. BTW, during development, before release to the public, IBM's was sometimes internally called "the clitoris". From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 27 14:48:21 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040827124322.K59574@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have on your > > dream keyboard? > Mine would have a Jack key and a Coke key. If you pressed them together > you got a Jack & Coke. If you wanted to go for the kill you'd just hit > the Jack key several times. The next morning you'd press the Coke key. I assume that you mean cola,... Be sure that you stick with Coca-Cola, NOT PEPSI! Pepsi has some past history with computers and keyboards: I have always reassured my beginning students that nothing that they accidentally enter through the keyboard of their computers would actually DAMAGE the computer. One wiseguy said, "I entered a Pepsi." After Three Mile Island, Saturday Night Live postulated that it was caused by "The Pepsi Syndrome", the result of spilling a Pepsi into a computer keyboard. Shortly after that, the U.S.A. and USSR (CCCP) normalized diplomatic relations enough to import vodka and export Pepsi to Russia. That was followed almost immediately by Chernobyl. Surely that could not be coincidence! Until their recent bailout, Apple computers ride into failure was with a former Pepsi exedcutive at the helm. Coincidence? From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 27 14:47:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Worst pointing device (was: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <20040827122903.L59574@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >>> Worst keyboard is anything with the little eraserhead > > > >>> pointing device in the middle. Distracts from typing, > > > >>> useless for pointing. > > > Although I hate them too...I have found they are the only worksable solution > > > with everything is moving [e.g. while standing on the metro...] > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > As if the invention of the mouse wasn't bad enough, the little red pointer > > is the worst atrocity to be foisted upon computer users ever since. > > I had a chance to try Lee Felsenstein's version of an "isometric > joystick", and it worked reasonably well. > I was then very disappointed with the action of the IBM version. > > BTW, during development, before release to the public, IBM's > was sometimes internally called "the clitoris". "Sometimes" meaning only when the male engineers on the team referred to it ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 27 14:48:11 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: <412F3667.21801.5BED65CE@localhost> References: <412F3667.21801.5BED65CE@localhost> Message-ID: <200408271951.PAA28838@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you >>> have on your dream keyboard? >> Rearrangeable layout - [...] > Go to your next PC store, and get yourself a ZBoard > http://www.zboard.com/us/index.html Heh. After looking at their webpages, I'd add something else: fully open interface. Depending on vendor-provided "drivers" (especially when they're available for only OSes I don't run) will kill it for me no matter how good it may be in other respects. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Aug 27 15:03:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Identity of specific model???? In-Reply-To: <20040827122903.L59574@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Can any one identify if this IS a DEC processor.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5117586795&ssPageNam e=STRK:MEWA:I I don't have any references [I am traveling today, will be home tomorrow....], but this looks more like a quad rs-232, Possilbly DLV-11J....... Alas the memory is not what it used to be.... Thanks..... From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 27 15:18:23 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Identity of specific model???? In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Aug 27, 2004 04:03:12 PM Message-ID: <200408272018.i7RKINsO010463@onyx.spiritone.com> > Can any one identify if this IS a DEC processor.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5117586795&ssPageNam > e=STRK:MEWA:I > > I don't have any references [I am traveling today, will be home > tomorrow....], but this looks more like a quad rs-232, > Possilbly DLV-11J....... > > Alas the memory is not what it used to be.... > > Thanks..... That's no CPU, and I agree it looks like a DLV-11J, more specifically like a third party one that uses jumpers rather than wirewraps to configure. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 27 15:18:58 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: floptical drives In-Reply-To: <200408271019160093.2DF14DCC@smtp.comcast.net> References: <1092913858.25931.96.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040819101904.J78985@shell.lmi.net> <200408271019160093.2DF14DCC@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040827131650.Y59574@shell.lmi.net> > >> Hmm, my first ever floptical drive just landed on the doorstep amongst a > >> pile of hardware. Never seen one before now, and it seems there's very > >> little info on the web about the technology. > >It didn't exactly take over the market. On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Joe Stevenson wrote: > Which is a shame. The high price tag probably killed them. I remember > the drives going for around $200. A couple years later, ZIP drives came > out at around the same price for 5 time the capacity. But the floptical drive could ALSO do 1.4M floppies. So did the LS-120, but my floptical drive was significantly more reliable than ZIP or LS-120 drives. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 27 15:21:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040827131939.V59574@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > An ANY key > Separate F1 for when the keyboard is missing. > An 'I know what I'm doing' key A 'just fucking do it!' key And > a cluster of ctrl-alt-del keys to make 3-fingered salutes easier to do :) For PC use, make a single ctrl-alt-del key. Make it taller than the other keys, and put it between the E,R,D, and F keys. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 27 15:26:33 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Identity of specific model???? References: <20040827122903.L59574@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16687.39161.783092.643028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> Can any one identify if this IS a DEC processor.... David> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5117586795&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:I David> I don't have any references [I am traveling today, will be David> home tomorrow....], but this looks more like a quad rs-232, David> Possilbly DLV-11J....... Something like that. But it's not a DEC board. The title is confusing. The manufacturer's name is "Computer Products" (whoever that may be), see the 5th large photo. paul From spedraja at ono.com Fri Aug 27 15:31:38 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Eclipse References: <20040827124322.K59574@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002c01c48c74$db0a0b20$1502a8c0@ACER> http://cgi.es.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11175&item=5717559 338&rd=1 Sadly, I can't front the shipment of this machine to my country. I hope someone could give it the proper use. Greetings Sergio From aek at spies.com Fri Aug 27 16:18:26 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Eclipse Message-ID: <20040827211826.4BD373C40@spies.com> Sadly, I can't front the shipment of this machine to my country. I hope someone could give it the proper use. -- MV9000 being sold by oregon state suplus property disposal http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5717559338 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 27 16:32:56 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: that OT: Tredennick, u-370, 68000, 5100... thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a901c48c7d$6ae37a30$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > However my patents live in Waverly which is near Dover, Lexington, > Napoleon, and Wellington. Most of these towns are less than several > hundred. I'm sure in the 1800's we borrowed the names from > some foreign > country. In this case Scotland - although that one is Waverley with an additional "e". It's also the code name of a few of the MicroVAX 3100s (apologies for wandering close to becoming on-topic again ...) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From paulpenn at knology.net Fri Aug 27 17:15:50 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Parts needed References: <009c01c48c6b$c1c15a00$12406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <018e01c48c83$693482f0$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> > Looking for the following to repair a H-8. > IC-2008 calculator keypad or ET-3400 non "A" version keypad The keys on the original ET-3400 are individual switches mounted on the circuit board, not a keypad. Evidently they used several different sources, as the construction manual warns the switches supplied may look different than the picture. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Aug 27 17:24:36 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Parts needed In-Reply-To: <018e01c48c83$693482f0$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Paul A. Pennington wrote: > > Looking for the following to repair a H-8. > > IC-2008 calculator keypad or ET-3400 non "A" version keypad I could use one of those 7-seg displays... if anyone has a spare they'd part with, contact me off-list ! Thanks, Fred (back to clearVISN config issues) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:09:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 26, 4 09:42:11 pm Message-ID: > > Eh? The CoCo 3 has all 4 arrows on it (I'm looking at one). It's also > > scanned in software (unlike the Apple ][) so can produce lower case if > > required. The CoCo 2 can't _display_ lower case as standard, but the 3 > > certainly can, and anyway that's not a keyboard issue. > > Sorry. My bad. But didn't it still lack something crucial, like a CTRL > key or something equally obvious? I remember bitching about this a while The CoCo 1 and 2 lack a CTRL key (it was common to use the down-arrow for this, though). The CoCo 3 has a CTRL and an ALT key (and, indeed, f1 and f2 keys, but no more). There's no Caps Lock on any of the CoCos, but that could be taken as an advantage :-) > ago and you coming to its defence :) I will admit to having a soft spot for the CoCo. It was the machine I used my first real OS on (OS-9, of course), and I learnt a lot from writing device drivers, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:16:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408270758.DAA26346@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 27, 4 03:50:26 am Message-ID: > > It was a lot of fun. It also rather spoiled me for breadboards, as the > breadboards we used were _really_ _nice_. Instead of being the > wish-board style, plastic grid with metal connectors below it that you That sort are totally unsuitable for any high-speed work (too much stray capacitance and indcutance). And remember the 'speed' mentioned here is not your clock rate, it's the rise/fall times of the signals, so if you're using modern chips you _have_ to use proper high-speed construction techniques, even if you're only clocking at a few Hz. I've had so many problems from such breadboards that I rarely use them any more [1]. I find it quicker to solder the thing up and/or wire-wrap it (WW will go to quite a high frequency if used on a groundplane). [1] THe main use I put it to now is as a die to crimp IDC DIL plugs and 2-row transition plugs in a vice. Yes, I know I should buy the right tool... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:26:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: <200408270759.IAA05191@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Aug 27, 4 08:59:10 am Message-ID: > Thanks for that, I've saved the info and will have a play when I get time. I will see if I can find the Sharp CE158 user manual (RS232/Centronics box for the PC1500). If I can, I'll provide more details. > When that'll be I don't know, I've just received some old FigForth listings* > to scan in or, probably, re-type. (PDP11 and Z80 if anyone wants to know) Somewhere I have a printed version of the Z80 Fig lisitng -- it's clearly a hack from the 8080 version. A friend of mine once ported it to the Tatung Einstein -- I should still have that somewhere too... Hunting around on this machine I've found what seems to be the Macro-11 source for PDP11 Fig-forth (RT11/RSX-11/standalone) and the 143K file of blocks contianing things like the Forth assembler, etc. I believe them to be public-domain and if anyone wants them (and can make them available for download, etc) they're welcome to them. > > * Courtesy of the FigUK library who have a lot of old stuff. You would get the 2 versions that I already have :-). I'd like to see the 6809 fig forth (I assume it existed, and used the 2 hardware stack pointers, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:28:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408270801.JAA05238@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Aug 27, 4 09:01:07 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > Worst : > > Science of Cambridge MK14 (If you thought the ZX81 was bad you should try > > this!) > > I replaced mine about a week after I built the kit - *easily* the worst > I've ever used! There were 2 versions. The original one was a sheet of conductive rubber, and was totally unusable. Sinclair then sold (\pounds 2.00 IIRC) a kit of metal doems, buttones and plastic sheets to make a calculator style keyboard, which was little better. However, the PCB was drilled for a keyboard switch that Maplin sold, and that's what I fitted to my machine.... There was also a set of edge fingers in front of the reset button that were for conencting an external keyboard. I believe some people used that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:33:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <27A6A208-F85F-11D8-A158-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 27, 4 09:27:37 pm Message-ID: > > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... > > Do try to build it. It can give great satisfaction. On the other hand, > if it does not work..... ... You will learn a lot about debugging hardware :-) -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 18:23:05 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: CPU In-Reply-To: <412F462A.15141.5C2AF63D@localhost> References: <412F462A.15141.5C2AF63D@localhost> Message-ID: <0d5541e54c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <412F462A.15141.5C2AF63D@localhost> "Hans Franke" wrote: > > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... > > Got the docs somewhere? I'm not 100% sure - I think I might have some old docs, but most of them got killed in a drive failure (I was going to say "disk crash", but it was more "passing the wrong parameter to dd and then watching as the drive got wiped clean"). I might still have a simulation file for it, but IIRC the instruction set and the state-machine PROM were nuked :( Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Can't learn to do it well? Learn to enjoy doing it badly! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 18:25:56 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <1093635081.15392.203208984@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1093635081.15392.203208984@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: In message <1093635081.15392.203208984@webmail.messagingengine.com> "David Vohs" wrote: > Well, I forgot one on my list: Just about any keyboard that has an "Any" > key on it (for "kitch" value). "Hay, Phil! The computer says 'Calculation complete, hit any key', what should I do?" "You see that key at the top right corner of the keyboard, the one marked 'Any'?" "Yeah...." "Press it." :) I want a keyboard that's completely outfitted with NKK SmartSwitch LCD switches and clear plastic covers. They're about $20 each in 10-off though IIRC... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... How's this for diplomacy? Shoot them all! --Kirk From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 18:29:18 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Custom CPUs (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: <27A6A208-F85F-11D8-A158-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <27A6A208-F85F-11D8-A158-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In message <27A6A208-F85F-11D8-A158-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... > > Do try to build it. It can give great satisfaction. On the other hand, > if it does not work..... ... I get to pull out the scope and play "Find the bug". Speaking of which, I need to debug my EPROM emulator at some point, and I also need a few new pod-to-probe cables for my HP 1650B (cables are HP P/N 5959-9333). If anyone's got a spare pack of them sitting in a drawer somewhere, please let me know! Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Reality is for people who can't handle computers. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Aug 27 18:35:41 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c7c42e54c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I've designed a custom CPU. Never got around to building it though... > > > > Do try to build it. It can give great satisfaction. On the other hand, > > if it does not work..... > > ... You will learn a lot about debugging hardware :-) I don't feel like doing any more debugging tonight - I've just had my Panasonic KX-P4400 in bits trying to find out why the paper was getting splattered with toner as it hit the fuser. Stripped the fuser to bits, cleaned the rollers, realigned the paper guide, put the fuser back together, then found out the OPC drum had a scuff on it. Gaaah! Just to add some more fun, I built a cable to hook my text terminal up to the Linux box. And put the wrong gender of connector on BOTH ends of the cable, i.e. DB9M instead of 9F, DB25F instead of DB25M. Some days it's not worth chewing through the leather straps in the morning... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI Optimism looks up, counts the stars; pessimism looks down and counts cracks. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 27 21:23:11 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: 6809 Forth (was: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x) Message-ID: <20040828022309.OECU13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >You would get the 2 versions that I already have :-). I'd like to see the >6809 fig forth (I assume it existed, and used the 2 hardware stack >pointers, etc). It's not fig, but if you are interested, you can take a look a my tiny little FORTH implementation for the 6809 - Docs are a bit sparse, sorry - it was done on a weekend in response to a collegue who had been boasting that he had created a version of FORTH for the 09 that was faster than any other - I truly enjoyed the look on his face the next monday morning when his test program ran significantly faster on mine... Of course I cheated - my FORTH compiled to directly executable code, which eliminated the interpreter and chaining through threaded links - this has a bit of overhead (3 byte JSR instruction instead of 2-byte link address), however it is offset by the fact that I reduced the header to just the word name (no difference between word types - everything is "native"), which saved me 16 bytes (IIRC) over the wordsize in his dictionary. Yes, it uses both hardware stacks. If you are interested in playing with it, it's available on my museum web site, in the section on my D6809 homebuilt. The source code is included, and if you want to try it out, you can run the D6809 emulator, mount the included disk IMAGE, boot up my CUBIX OS and type FORTH - this will launch a ready to run version of my itty bitty FORTH (about a 2.5k executable as I recall). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 27 22:05:28 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: 6809 Forth (was: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x) In-Reply-To: <20040828022309.OECU13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040827220514.022725e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Very cool! --tom At 10:23 PM 8/27/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >You would get the 2 versions that I already have :-). I'd like to see the > >6809 fig forth (I assume it existed, and used the 2 hardware stack > >pointers, etc). > >It's not fig, but if you are interested, you can take a look a my tiny little >FORTH implementation for the 6809 - Docs are a bit sparse, sorry - it was done >on a weekend in response to a collegue who had been boasting that he had >created >a version of FORTH for the 09 that was faster than any other - I truly enjoyed >the look on his face the next monday morning when his test program ran >significantly faster on mine... > >Of course I cheated - my FORTH compiled to directly executable code, which >eliminated the interpreter and chaining through threaded links - this has >a bit >of overhead (3 byte JSR instruction instead of 2-byte link address), >however it >is offset by the fact that I reduced the header to just the word name (no >difference between word types - everything is "native"), which saved me 16 >bytes >(IIRC) over the wordsize in his dictionary. Yes, it uses both hardware stacks. > >If you are interested in playing with it, it's available on my museum web >site, >in the section on my D6809 homebuilt. The source code is included, and if >you want >to try it out, you can run the D6809 emulator, mount the included disk IMAGE, >boot up my CUBIX OS and type FORTH - this will launch a ready to run >version of >my itty bitty FORTH (about a 2.5k executable as I recall). > >Regards, >Dave > > > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 22:24:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <1c7c42e54c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 28, 4 00:35:41 am Message-ID: > I don't feel like doing any more debugging tonight - I've just had my > Panasonic KX-P4400 in bits trying to find out why the paper was getting > splattered with toner as it hit the fuser. Stripped the fuser to bits, > cleaned the rollers, realigned the paper guide, put the fuser back together, > then found out the OPC drum had a scuff on it. Gaaah! Don't feel too bad about it. I once spent a few hours trying to figure out why a PSU wasn't giving any outputs, only to discover the cartdige fuse in the (normal, 13A, BS1363) mains plug was missing. A new fuse held and the machine worked fine after that... > > Just to add some more fun, I built a cable to hook my text terminal up to the > Linux box. And put the wrong gender of connector on BOTH ends of the cable, > i.e. DB9M instead of 9F, DB25F instead of DB25M. A worse version of that (and yes, I've done it) is to solder all the wires onto one of those invernal circular mil-spec connectors and then realise you've forgotten to put the back shell over the cable.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 22:31:04 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: 6809 Forth (was: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x) In-Reply-To: <20040828022309.OECU13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Aug 27, 4 10:23:11 pm Message-ID: > > > >You would get the 2 versions that I already have :-). I'd like to see the > >6809 fig forth (I assume it existed, and used the 2 hardware stack > >pointers, etc). > > It's not fig, but if you are interested, you can take a look a my tiny little > FORTH implementation for the 6809 - Docs are a bit sparse, sorry - it was done THanks, I'll take a look. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 27 23:07:49 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: way ot - circuit board notebooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm trying to find an online vendor that sells notebooks of college ruled paper that use recycled printed circuit boards as the cover. Google returns a few hits, but the stores are in the UK. Thanks for the help! g. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 27 23:38:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > A worse version of that (and yes, I've done it) is to solder all the > wires onto one of those invernal circular mil-spec connectors and then > realise you've forgotten to put the back shell over the cable.... How many times have I done something like that? Too many times to count. Truly annoying. Someone LART me, please! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 27 23:44:16 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Worst pointing device (was: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2004, at 12:47 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > "Sometimes" meaning only when the male engineers on the team referred > to > it ;) And the female engineers were not present... From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Aug 28 03:06:09 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:26:13 BST." Message-ID: <200408280806.JAA18835@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > Hunting around on this machine I've found what seems to be the Macro-11 > source for PDP11 Fig-forth (RT11/RSX-11/standalone) and the 143K file of > blocks contianing things like the Forth assembler, etc. I believe them to > be public-domain and if anyone wants them (and can make them available > for download, etc) they're welcome to them. > Yes, I've got that as well. Running it under RT-11 on simh atm as I *still* haven't got round to persuading my Micro 11/73 to read disks written with putr...or discovered which of the dozen or so connectors on the back RT-11 thinks is DD: so I can connect a TU58 emulator. So much to do...so little time :-) > You would get the 2 versions that I already have :-). I'd like to see the > 6809 fig forth (I assume it existed, and used the 2 hardware stack > pointers, etc). I've always though the 6809 would make a fine Forth machine, but I never got round to finding out. Yes there is a 6809 lising in the FigUK library as well as things like 1802 9900 and VAX. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Aug 28 05:10:17 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: Message-ID: <002901c48ce7$8d629a40$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 4:24 AM Subject: Re: Best keyboards you've used ever! > > I don't feel like doing any more debugging tonight - I've just had my > > Panasonic KX-P4400 in bits trying to find out why the paper was getting > > splattered with toner as it hit the fuser. Stripped the fuser to bits, > > cleaned the rollers, realigned the paper guide, put the fuser back together, > > then found out the OPC drum had a scuff on it. Gaaah! > > Don't feel too bad about it. I once spent a few hours trying to figure > out why a PSU wasn't giving any outputs, only to discover the cartdige > fuse in the (normal, 13A, BS1363) mains plug was missing. A new fuse held > and the machine worked fine after that... > > > > > > Just to add some more fun, I built a cable to hook my text terminal up to the > > Linux box. And put the wrong gender of connector on BOTH ends of the cable, > > i.e. DB9M instead of 9F, DB25F instead of DB25M. > > A worse version of that (and yes, I've done it) is to solder all the > wires onto one of those invernal circular mil-spec connectors and then > realise you've forgotten to put the back shell over the cable.... > > -tony > A technically up-market version of all rubber mains plugs having the plug top cable collet cut through. Geoff. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Aug 28 06:06:18 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: <1c7c42e54c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040828070411.0321b5b8@192.168.0.1> At 11:24 PM 8/27/2004, you wrote: >Don't feel too bad about it. I once spent a few hours trying to figure >out why a PSU wasn't giving any outputs, only to discover the cartdige >fuse in the (normal, 13A, BS1363) mains plug was missing. A new fuse held >and the machine worked fine after that... I imagine most of us have trouble shot something and very logically traced it back to the BRS. Ed From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 28 06:30:54 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5af783e54c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Don't feel too bad about it. I once spent a few hours trying to figure > out why a PSU wasn't giving any outputs, only to discover the cartdige > fuse in the (normal, 13A, BS1363) mains plug was missing. A new fuse held > and the machine worked fine after that... I should really have checked the "DRUM PG CNT" entry in the service menu before I ripped the machine apart - it was reading 9,306 - the drum is rated for 6,000 pages, which kinda explains the scuffing and weak output... > A worse version of that (and yes, I've done it) is to solder all the > wires onto one of those invernal circular mil-spec connectors and then > realise you've forgotten to put the back shell over the cable.... I've done that with Maplin metal shielded RCA connectors. Only thing is, I did it on a 6m audio cable... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'm not nearly as think as you confused I am. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Aug 28 09:13:30 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:34 2005 Subject: Test - Please ignore! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040828101239.01c8baf8@mail.30below.com> Boy, you don't pay attention to subject lines, do you??? ;-) I seem to have stopped receiving cctalk postings... so this is just a test. Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 13:28:17 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Test - Please ignore! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040828101239.01c8baf8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002c01c48d2c$ca0466a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Roger wrote... > I seem to have stopped receiving cctalk postings... so this is just a test. > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Roger, I got your private email a half hour ago, as well as this post you made to the list (via the list). Jay West From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 26 12:29:06 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826092558.03433408@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826131827.03b9a900@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > >1) Sinclair ZX series Yea, had one of those... >2) Coco 1 Yea, chicklet sucks... >3) Coco 2 Erm... no. The CoCo2 keyboard wasn't that bad, really. If this were my list, I'd replace that with the Atari 400. What were they thinking: "Let's take this keypad off of a microwave, stick it on a computer, and market it!" ;-O >4) Aquarius (my first) >5) Original PET Dunno about those two, so I can't say, but due to their size, the Tandy Pocket computer series were all pretty bad (understandably...) but I /think/ it was the PC-5 that was pretty much a portrait calculator w/a non-qwerty microwave keypad on the right for a keyboard -- that would be my vote... [[ I didn't care for any of the Tandy pocket computers after the PC-2... and I owned most of 'em at one point in time, except the one mentioned above. ]] Just my $0.0000000000000002 worth... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 26 12:37:31 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826132931.03b9d290@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > > > > 1) Sinclair ZX series > > 2) Coco 1 > > 3) Coco 2 > > 4) Aquarius (my first) > > 5) Original PET > >I forgot to include Coco 3. If you forgot that, then you're forgetting a *lot* of other keyboards. The CoCo3's keyboard was one of the better keyboards found on 8-bitters... including my Atari 800. Admittedly, comparing it to an IBM Model M (Which I use religiously) isn't fair, but barring the Tandy 100/102/200 and some older IBM & Compaq "laptops" the CoCo3 keyboard is better than what you can get "built-in" nowadays. I could hit damn near 100wpm on it -- *not bad* for a keyboard. (I can't do much over 60 on my Fujitsu laptop, or the dells floating around here -- Even with an IBM butterfly keyboard, I topped out at 80-85... In contrast, I've hit 110 wpm on my IBM Model Ms and my Tandy 200.) How fast can *you* type on an Atari 400? ;-P Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 26 12:44:34 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <1093539719.5841.203124345@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826133755.03ba82b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Vohs may have mentioned these words: [snip] >2. The Original Macintosh keyboard. No cursor keys. I dunno if I can agree with that one.... >5. The Microsoft Natural keyboard (No laughing, & no comments either!) Sorry, I have to comment -> Depends on the model. They have one model where the Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys are smaller & turned 90 degrees. That one sucks. Their earlier ones are very nice, tho. I only don't like 'em because I type so much on so many different keyboards. If I only had one keyboard I had to deal with, it'd be hard to decide between a Model M and a good M$ natural... >Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating system to save >their, uhhh, assets can make such a comfortable keyboard! Go figure! No, that should read: "Funny that ... could make one of the best damn joysticks on the planet -- the M$ Force Feedback unit -- and then after all the good press quit making it!" But that's just me... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 28 15:27:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826131827.03b9a900@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >3) Coco 2 > > Erm... no. The CoCo2 keyboard wasn't that bad, really. If this were my No CONTROL key!?!?!? > list, I'd replace that with the Atari 400. What were they thinking: "Let's > take this keypad off of a microwave, stick it on a computer, and market > it!" ;-O It goes in the same category as the lame ZX8x keyboards. > Dunno about those two, so I can't say, but due to their size, the Tandy > Pocket computer series were all pretty bad (understandably...) but I > /think/ it was the PC-5 that was pretty much a portrait calculator w/a > non-qwerty microwave keypad on the right for a keyboard -- that would be my > vote... Probably the best palmtop keyboard was on the Psion Series 5. You could almost type on it as you would a PC keyboard. Too bad the action was so stiff. Still, the Psion Series 5 gets my vote for best all-time palmtop computer (32-bit GUI OS, touch screen, backlit, serial port, real keyboard, 2 PC-Card slots, 8MB main memory, TCP/IP stack allows for web browser and any other TCP/IP-based application, integrated high-level scripting language, 16-bit stereo sound chip, more). Second place goes to the Psion Series 3. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 28 15:29:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826132931.03b9d290@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >I forgot to include Coco 3. > > If you forgot that, then you're forgetting a *lot* of other keyboards. The > CoCo3's keyboard was one of the better keyboards found on 8-bitters... > including my Atari 800. Sorry, I was under the impression that the Coco3 also didn't have a CTRL key, but was corrected by Tony. > How fast can *you* type on an Atari 400? ;-P I believe I once reached the blinding, avert-your-eyes-lest-the-glow-from-the-friction-burn-your-retinas speed of 5 CPS :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 28 16:30:57 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826133755.03ba82b0@mail.30below.com> References: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20040826133755.03ba82b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200408282139.RAA13354@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I only don't like 'em [M$ "Natural" keyboards] because I type so much > on so many different keyboards. If I only had one keyboard I had to > deal with, it'd be hard to decide between a Model M and a good M$ > natural... Well, the biggest problem with them for me is that they're peecee-only. The second-biggest problem is that I don't formally touch-type; in particular, when typing all-caps, or control characters, my right hand takes over about ? to 1 key column worth from my left - except the M$ keyboards compel you to use the hand _they_ think you should use for each key. Not to mention the various contexts in which I type one-handed (and not always with the same hand). > "Funny that ... could make one of the best damn joysticks on the > planet -- the M$ Force Feedback unit -- and then after all the good > press quit making it!" I felt that way about NeXT: they made really neat hardware, with cool stuff in it, and software that drove me to do a port of X11R4 so I could overlay their UI with something I could actually stand to use. So what did they do? They stopped making the _hardware_! Rrrrrgh! And of course, they then orphaned the hardware and couldn't be bothered to actually _document_ it. Double rrrrrgh. And there's some cool stuff in there, too - a DSP, a blitter, a printer interface - that I don't have a clue how to access. Look at how long it took for NetBSD to support even the SCSI interface.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 17:07:57 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: HP memory available (HP9000) Message-ID: <000d01c48d4b$79c84c50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Maybe not quite vintage... but I have these, and no need for them, and would rather trade or give them away than toss them. I have four memory modules labled as follows: Series 800/900 Memory 32mb A2511-69001 The extractor handle on each module (and the label) says 32mb. But being somewhat familiar (although rusty) with HP part numbers and modules of this type, it is possible that even though it says 32mb on each module that each one is really 16mb, as modules were always sold in pairs for these particular systems. Knowing the origin of this memory, it mostly likey came from a G machine, or possibly a K machine. I cant be sure, but I suspect they are working fine. If anyone wants them let me know quickly... Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 18:02:11 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826131827.03b9a900@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 26, 4 01:29:06 pm Message-ID: > >3) Coco 2 > > Erm... no. The CoCo2 keyboard wasn't that bad, really. If this were my It was a membrane with proper keys on top. Not brilliant, but as you said, it was by no means the worst. > list, I'd replace that with the Atari 400. What were they thinking: "Let's > take this keypad off of a microwave, stick it on a computer, and market > it!" ;-O Although I did once find a use for an Atari 400 keyboard. It had no keycaps to get lost of get stolen. I put it on my college room door when I was nan undergraduate and linked it to a box of electronics consisting of a keyboard encoder and a text-to-speech board (CTS256 and SPO256 based, of course). This was linked to a 'spare' serial port on my CoCo 2 so that people could log in an leave me messages. I set up an account called 'message' with no password where the 'shell' was the message program which asked for your name and the message, then recorded them, along with the time and date, to disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 18:06:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040826131827.03b9a900@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 26, 4 01:29:06 pm Message-ID: > Dunno about those two, so I can't say, but due to their size, the Tandy > Pocket computer series were all pretty bad (understandably...) but I > /think/ it was the PC-5 that was pretty much a portrait calculator w/a I think that was the PC7. It had a membrane-type ABC-layout keyboard in the flap of the case with a conventional-ish calculator keyboard on the machine itself (you weren't suppoed to be able to take the machine out of the case, of course, in practice you could if you flipped off a plastic cover strip and undid some screws which clamped the keyboard tail against the PCB in the calcluator). The PC6 was landscape format clamshell with rubber buttons in the lower half for digits and claculator functions and a membrane strip with a QWERTY layout in the top part, along with the display. I _hated_ that machine (and not just because of the keyboard). Both were made by Casio I think. IMHO the only decent _pocket_ computer keyboard (feel, layout, etc) was the HP71. The HP75 is a close second. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 18:11:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: <200408280806.JAA18835@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Aug 28, 4 09:06:09 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > > Hunting around on this machine I've found what seems to be the Macro-11 > > source for PDP11 Fig-forth (RT11/RSX-11/standalone) and the 143K file of > > blocks contianing things like the Forth assembler, etc. I believe them to > > be public-domain and if anyone wants them (and can make them available > > for download, etc) they're welcome to them. > > > > Yes, I've got that as well. Running it under RT-11 on simh atm as How different is it from the FIG listing you've just obtained? [...] > I've always though the 6809 would make a fine Forth machine, but I never > got round to finding out. Yes there is a 6809 lising in the FigUK > library as well as things like 1802 9900 and VAX. Personally I'd have gone for the more obscure processors first ... But that probably explains why I have some quite obscure machines in my collection (PERQs, PDP11/45, Tiger, etc) but am missing some quite common ones (Apple //c, Dragon 64, Acorn Electron, etc). I tend to ignore the common stuff, assuming somebody else will have it. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 18:47:30 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: dec LA/VT stuff available Message-ID: <001f01c48d59$6229f860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have a Decwriter III (LA120) available. Never plugged it in, somewhat yellowed case, missing the break key. Very dusty but otherwise in good condition. It's taking up way too much space so I want it gone quick - otherwise it gets pitched or stripped for spare parts. Also have available 2 or 3 VT100 keyboards. Fairly yellowed, one is missing one keycap, the other is missing about 5 keycaps. Good for parts - they get pitched if no one claims them. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 28 18:53:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > Although I did once find a use for an Atari 400 keyboard. It had no > keycaps to get lost of get stolen. I put it on my college room door when > I was nan undergraduate and linked it to a box of electronics consisting > of a keyboard encoder and a text-to-speech board (CTS256 and SPO256 > based, of course). This was linked to a 'spare' serial port on my CoCo 2 > so that people could log in an leave me messages. I set up an account > called 'message' with no password where the 'shell' was the message > program which asked for your name and the message, then recorded them, > along with the time and date, to disk. Fun! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Aug 28 20:04:57 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040828182745.00b121d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > Eh? The CoCo 3 has all 4 arrows on it (I'm looking at one). It's also > > > scanned in software (unlike the Apple ][) so can produce lower case if > > > required. The CoCo 2 can't _display_ lower case as standard... Some could -- later versions had a "B" version to the chipset with updated character ROMs that had true lower-case - it could be brought out with a couple of peeks/pokes in RS-Basic, but OS-9 could automagically tell if it was a capable machine & display accordingly. > > Sorry. My bad. But didn't it still lack something crucial, like a CTRL > > key or something equally obvious? I remember bitching about this a while > >The CoCo 1 and 2 lack a CTRL key (it was common to use the down-arrow for >this, though). The CoCo 3 has a CTRL and an ALT key (and, indeed, f1 and >f2 keys, but no more). There's no Caps Lock on any of the CoCos, but that >could be taken as an advantage :-) As there is no standard character for the zero key (parens were 8 & 9), most (all?) software used for "cap-lock" -- It wasn't denoted on the keyboard, but it was rather prominent in the documentation. Granted, if you got your CoCo 2nd hand and somehow got it into "lower-case mode" without knowing how & no manuals to reference, it could be a bugger to find out how to accept commands again, as the basic couldn't handle the lower-case characters... > > ago and you coming to its defence :) > >I will admit to having a soft spot for the CoCo. It was the machine I >used my first real OS on (OS-9, of course), and I learnt a lot from >writing device drivers, etc. I had no idea assembly language could be hard until I started looking at books about x86 assembly... It just seems so "natural" on the 6809... (altho I'd really like to try my hand at 6309... But first, I'd *need* a 6309... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 20:19:42 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: more VT stuff available Message-ID: <002a01c48d66$43b6a380$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Power supply for VT100, working, switch handle broken off. Model H7831. Cost = Shipping Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 20:22:39 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever References: Message-ID: <002e01c48d66$aed0da00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You'll find this shocking coming from a big HP fan... but... I can't stand the keyboard layout on the ubiquitous 700/96 terminal. That's probably why I don't use my D220 server much. Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 28 20:37:31 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040828183528.H86335@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > 1) Sinclair ZX series so,... it really IS a keyboard, not just a picture pasted on. But I'm a sloppy enough typist that I liked the keyboard of the 026 keypunch. From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 28 21:05:13 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040828182745.00b121d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <005201c48d6c$9f480c60$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> From: "Roger Merchberger" > I had no idea assembly language could be hard until I started looking at > books about x86 assembly... It just seems so "natural" on the 6809... > (altho I'd really like to try my hand at 6309... But first, I'd *need* a > 6309... ;-) Having done most of my assembly on the x86, I'd have to say the feeling is mutual. I recently tried my hand at the 6809, and was getting it slapped pretty regularly for a while. The things that seemed natural to me were almost all no-nos on the 6809. Please let me know if you can find the 6309e chip (especially in a DIP package at a reasonable price) :-). Vince From bmachacek at pcisys.net Sun Aug 29 00:50:14 2004 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: CPU Chips Message-ID: <000a01c48d8c$118da590$0200000a@xeon> I have been salvaging old computers now for over 6 years and have kept all the CPU chips that I have found in them. Most of the chips being from 386, 486, and Pentium I computers. Is there a list anywhere that identifies which of these chips might be rare or hard to find? Before I scrap them for the gold content, I'd like to find out if any of them might be worth keeping or selling to someone interested in a particular chip. Thanks for any information you can give me. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Aug 29 01:15:10 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: CPU Chips References: <000a01c48d8c$118da590$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <000601c48d8f$8a8e7c50$2201a8c0@finans> > From: "Bill Machacek" >I have been salvaging old computers now for over 6 years and have kept all the CPU chips that I have found in them. You wouldnt have save the RAM chips, would you ? Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19-08-2004 From class at fliptronics.com Sun Aug 29 04:12:34 2004 From: class at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: HP 2100 book sought ($BOUNTY$) In-Reply-To: <016b01c48927$21294860$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <016b01c48927$21294860$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:37:42 -0500, you wrote: >I'm looking for an original copy (not pdf or other electronic format) of the >"HP Pocket Reference Guide to the 2100 Computer". Unlike the title suggests, >it's hardly pocket-sized. It's about 450 pages, with roughly 5x8 pages. > >I'm willing to pay non-trivial sums of cash, or provide lopsided trades, for >said book. I am interested in what you consider "non-trivial sums of cash". ( A lopsided trade would be for a 2100, but then I would need the book) My copy has contact plastic on its cover, so it is not in original condition, on the other hand, it still has a cover because of the protective coating. Size as described, about 1.25" thick. Stamped on the edges of the pages (all 3 sides) is "EDP Department" and in writing "Copy 22". Also on inside of front cover. Vintage is 25th July 1974. Otherwise, in pristine condition. (I probably owe a library fine on this, but since the EDP Department does not exist any more, I am not too worried) Will you be scanning it and putting a PDF copy up on bitsavers? Amazingly, I have also found the following documents of similar vintage: HP92045 Microprogramming Package Reference manual. Loose leaf, 3 hole punched, about 1" thick. This is how to write microcode for the 2100 using the Writeable Control Store (WCS) option A pocket Guide to Interfacing the HP2100 Computer. March 1973 5 x 7.25 x 5/8" Condition: Like new except for a bit of the blue "ink" on the cover (at the intersection of the cover and the spine) has been rubbed off. A pocket guide to Interfacing HP Computers. September 1969. Slightly smaller and same condition as the book above. Seems the computer line at the time was 2114A/B, 2115A, and 2116B. Some what more recent: The way ahead of its time, and very short lived HP300 Architecture guide. Vintage November 1979. 7.5 x 8.5 x .5". Almost new condition HP Precision Architecture Handbook. July 1987. Almost new condition 8.5 x 11 x .5" >Regards, >Jay West All the best, Philip Freidin ================= Philip Freidin philip@fliptronics.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Aug 29 03:27:26 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:11:26 BST." Message-ID: <200408290827.JAA32515@citadel.metropolis.local> hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: I said: > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > Hunting around on this machine I've found what seems to be the Macro-11 > > > source for PDP11 Fig-forth (RT11/RSX-11/standalone) and the 143K file of > > > blocks contianing things like the Forth assembler, etc. I believe them to > > > be public-domain and if anyone wants them (and can make them available > > > for download, etc) they're welcome to them. > > > > > > > Yes, I've got that as well. Running it under RT-11 on simh atm as > > How different is it from the FIG listing you've just obtained? It appears to be the same with some minor layout differences. I got the listing in case it was different, and also to have a look at how much work was involved in getting this stuff digitally archived. There is quite a bit of info in the FigUK library and it would be nice to get it scanned and archived digitally as the original listings are apparently getting a bit yellowed and fragile. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Aug 29 05:58:38 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <002e01c48d66$aed0da00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> At 09:22 PM 8/28/2004, you wrote: >You'll find this shocking coming from a big HP fan... but... > >I can't stand the keyboard layout on the ubiquitous 700/96 terminal. That's >probably why I don't use my D220 server much. Don't know anything about HP computers. But I marvelled years ago at guys programming on an HP1000. Their terminals had a rotary switch for baud rate at the upper left. To freeze a listing that was scrolling by on their terminal, they'd !quick! roll the switch to 0 baud or something, then !quick! roll it back. What a kludge compared to Xon/Xoff ^S ^Q that decent terminals like the VT52/VT100 used. :-) They had a stack of keyboards, guess they wore the switches out. Ed From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 29 09:29:56 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <200408290729560980.2DE9693A@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 26-Aug-04 at 09:05 Mark Wickens wrote: >OK, this one is bound to get a few responses: > >List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like the feel, >number of function keys, layout (let's not forget Dvorak or more esoteric designs) Youbetcha! In sequence... --Original IBM 101-key PS/2 "clicker." Still use one, would never give it up, still think it's the best darn unit EVER, in terms of feel, response, and reliability. Then again, I learned to type on an old Underwood manual typewriter, which probably explains both my heavy touch (something that pulverizes lesser keyboards over time), and my liking for solid tactile feedback. --The Wyse keyboards, such as those that came with the old WysePC 286. The base was just about as solid as the IBM's, even if they didn't go 'click.' Those are really the only two I've been able to really 'like.' I tolerate others, simply because I'm given little choice in the matter (usually work computers, etc.) Keep the peace(es). >or >pure keyboard<->computer love (you might really get off on Vaxen). > >My list is something like: > >1. IBM Model M (original buckle-spring technology, still standing the test >of >time) >2. Unicomp PC 5250 (two rows of function keys at the top upto F24 and a >set of >10 on the left, can be bought new and 'broken in') >3. DEC LK421 (not-often-seen cut-size Unix programmers DEC keyboard) >4. Wyse WY-40 (very nice positive feel with sturdy base) >5. Early Chiconi PC keyboards (hopelessly rattly and cheap but engaging >'click' and quick to type on none-the-less) >6. My college used to have a computer room full of terminals, possibly >Adds, >which had a very nice short travel and positive click keyboard). >7. ZX81 (simply because it was my first computer). >8. Cherry high end keyboards. >9. DEC keyboards with a 'Do' and 'Help' key. >10. SUN keyboards with 'Cut', 'Copy' and 'Paste' keys. > >I'm a great fan of dedicated keys, and function keys on the left. Whoever >decided to put the out of reach at the top of the keyboard needs their >head >examining! > >There must have been some stonking keyboards attached to more vintage >hardware. I'd love to know about them (if that doesn't sound a bit weird!). > >Mark. > >-- >Mark Wickens >Rhodium Consulting Ltd -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From anheier at owt.com Sun Aug 29 10:14:44 2004 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: GPIB Card Availabe Message-ID: <28BB1284-F9CE-11D8-81E0-0050E4E0C16B@owt.com> I have a no-name GPIB card available, untested. Free for shipping cost. thanks Norm From anheier at owt.com Sun Aug 29 10:13:28 2004 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 manuals, software available Message-ID: I have the following to offer: 1. Digital Research CP/M-86 operating system manual, release 1.1, 1982, has the user guide, system guide, programmer's guide, hard shell box, all in very good condition, includes well used command summary pamphet. Software 5 1/4" disks: GSX-86 version 1.1, CP/M-86 version 1.1, CBASIC/86 Version 1.4-- untested 2. Digital Research CP/M-86 operating system manual, release 1.1, 1982, has the user guide, system guide, programmer's guide, hard shell box, all in very good condition, includes mint command summary pamphet. Software 8" disks: CP/M-86 version 1.1, Sealed-unopened, untested If you are interested, shoot me some offers. Thanks Norm From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 29 10:32:53 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: HP 2100 book sought ($BOUNTY$) References: <016b01c48927$21294860$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <005901c48ddd$73d82350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > I am interested in what you consider "non-trivial sums of cash". > ( A lopsided trade would be for a 2100, but then I would need the book) Two listmembers stepped forward, I took the first one :) So... I already have said book. I think I have two or three "spare" 2100's (and a 2155 I/O extender). However, out of them I need to get one good working 2100 as a spare unit for my other two 2100's in my dual cpu Access system. With what is left, I will eventually see if there's enough to put together another 2100 that I won't need. There's a fairly long list of people who want that one IF it becomes available :) > Will you be scanning it and putting a PDF copy up on bitsavers? I think Al already has a copy destined for future scanning... we'll see. > Amazingly, I have also found the following documents of similar vintage: I have recently located all of those other books too. Great documents! > Some what more recent: > The way ahead of its time, and very short lived HP300 Architecture guide. > Vintage November 1979. 7.5 x 8.5 x .5". Almost new condition > > HP Precision Architecture Handbook. July 1987. Almost new condition > 8.5 x 11 x .5" No need, I have no 300. I have a D220 though, but I have a pretty good stash of docs on that one since I bought it new :) Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 29 10:34:53 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <006101c48ddd$bb268850$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Their terminals had a rotary switch for baud rate at the upper left. > To freeze a listing that was scrolling by on their terminal, > they'd !quick! roll the switch to 0 baud or something, then !quick! roll it > back. Those would be 264X terminals - something I am REALLY looking for. Jay West From awt at io.com Sun Aug 29 10:52:12 2004 From: awt at io.com (Wayne Talbot) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: <200408291704.i7TH3vfS053063@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408291704.i7TH3vfS053063@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1093794732.1403.1.camel@gandalf.cox-internet.com> Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client Have you tried pegasus mail? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Aug 29 12:38:59 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: WTD: help debugging an eprom emulator Message-ID: <218029e64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi, Sorry for clogging up classiccmp with this message, but it is sort-of classiccmp related (I wanted to build an EPROM emulator to make ROM development on my BBC Micro a little faster). I've been trying to get my EPROM emulator design to work - I can't see any errors in the wiring and AFAICT all the ICs are fine. I've uploaded the schematic to . If anyone spots a design error, please let me know - I've gone over the schematic a few dozen times and I'm almost at the point of giving up :-/ It looks like data is getting loaded, but isn't getting output to the target device properly... %DEITY knows why, though... Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Psychoceramics: The study of crackpots. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 29 13:10:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: GPIB Card Availabe In-Reply-To: <28BB1284-F9CE-11D8-81E0-0050E4E0C16B@owt.com> References: <28BB1284-F9CE-11D8-81E0-0050E4E0C16B@owt.com> Message-ID: <200408291811.OAA01225@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a no-name GPIB card available, untested. Free for shipping > cost. thanks Norm For what bus? If it's SBus, I'm interested. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From acme at gbronline.com Sun Aug 29 13:27:37 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? References: Message-ID: <069101c48df5$de0e4e80$524f0945@thegoodw> I've spoken to Joe several times since Charley hit. I live in Orlando and Joe's in Oviedo (a small city east of Orlando). Charley came right up through Orlando, and there was a lot of property damage here, but fortunately a very small number of people were actually hurt. One of Joe's cars was smashed by a falling tree and a couple of his sheds lost their roofs. My wife and I had no electricity in our house for seven days. Temperatures were in the mid-nineties (Fahrenheit), and with no light, stove, air conditioning or hot water it was a pretty crappy experience. Joe mentioned to me that he's been too busy to post anything to the list lately, but I'm sure we'll hear from him again here soon. Later -- Glen Goodwin 0/0 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:11 PM Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? > > Say, I don't believe we've heard from Joe since the hurricane in Florida. > I hope he's OK. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From acme at gbronline.com Sun Aug 29 13:41:44 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: CBTREE source code needed Message-ID: <076c01c48df7$d590ed60$524f0945@thegoodw> This was a B+ tree package produced by Peacock Systems (Walter Peacock) for MS-DOS (and written in C) in the late 80s Some applications I wrote 15 years ago have come back to haunt me and I no longer have the library source. Any help out there? TIA -- Glen Goodwin 0/0 From acme at gbronline.com Sun Aug 29 13:46:47 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: VT-220 has a headache Message-ID: <078301c48df8$8a58d5a0$524f0945@thegoodw> Symptom: a one-inch high band of horizontally scrolling garbage in the center of the screen. Any ideas before I go in there and poke around? Later -- Glen 0/0 From mike-cc at msdsite.com Sun Aug 29 13:52:42 2004 From: mike-cc at msdsite.com (Mike Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <200407180026.i6I0Qn3m003326@caip.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <4131C38A.3795.FC436C@localhost> I have been looking everywhere on the net for development information for this old Panasonic Handheld (HHC RL H-1400). I have basic information but I'm specifically looking for information that will allow me to write a program in assembly language and run in a ROM installed in the back. Does anyone have any specific detailed info on this? Memory Maps, and such? What is required to have the system jump and run from ROM software? I know about the BASIC ROM optional part but haven't ever seen one of those either. Any info? Source? Thanks, From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 29 13:55:53 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: VT-220 has a headache References: <078301c48df8$8a58d5a0$524f0945@thegoodw> Message-ID: <413226B9.5080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Glen Goodwin wrote: > Symptom: a one-inch high band of horizontally scrolling > garbage in the center of the screen. > > Any ideas before I go in there and poke around? Take out the trash and try again? It sounds like a hardware-software falure to me rather than say a flakey ram, but I have no idea. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 29 16:12:10 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <4131C38A.3795.FC436C@localhost> from Mike Davis at "Aug 29, 4 11:52:42 am" Message-ID: <200408292112.OAA17106@floodgap.com> > I have been looking everywhere on the net for development information > for this old Panasonic Handheld (HHC RL H-1400). I have basic > information but I'm specifically looking for information that will allow me > to write a program in assembly language and run in a ROM installed in > the back. If you find that out, I think a lot of us would like to know as well ^^ If yours is one of the New York Life preprogrammed ones (mine is and has their ROM), you may be able to dump it. I haven't tried doing this yet since my EPROMmer/reader is sitting in a box in my storage shed and I haven't yet got around to digging it out. There is a little red flag waving in my head that the pinout is not standard and that the address lines were intentionally farked up, but I'm not sure if I'm confusing this with something else. No one has ever been able to find one of the BASIC ROMs, let alone one of the FORTH ROMs, yet either. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein -------------------------- From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 29 16:38:36 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Near-classic: Win95 beta CDs Message-ID: <000401c48e10$8b3a2100$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hi: I'm trying to track down a particular program from the Windows 95 beta program. I must have purged a bunch a while back by mistake. Here's what I'm looking for...I can't remember if it's on the Win95 or DirectX beta disks, but it's some sort of space station demo that enables you to access the various demo programs on the disk. Specifically, I'm looking for the WAV and/or MIDI files from it. If any remembers this and can put their hands on it, please let me know off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun Aug 29 16:39:18 2004 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component Message-ID: <41324D06.908@nktelco.net> I have two identical 72pin memory SIMMS out of an HP workstation. One is damaged by having a single 3pin SMD component physically destroyed, with only the leads remaining. The second is complete and functional. The damaged component's reference designation is CR5, so I am thinking it is a rectifier and not a transistor. The black plastic SOT-23 package is marked with 5A followed by a K rotated 90deg counter-clockwise. Any suggestions on how to identify the part? Is there a pointer somewhere to how SMD components are marked? -chuck From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Aug 29 16:51:45 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <41324D06.908@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829175006.03147c68@192.168.0.1> At 05:39 PM 8/29/2004, you wrote: >I have two identical 72pin memory SIMMS out of an HP workstation. One is >damaged by having a single 3pin SMD component physically destroyed, with >only the leads remaining. The second is complete and functional. The >damaged component's reference designation is CR5, so I am thinking it is a >rectifier and not a transistor. The black plastic SOT-23 package is marked >with 5A followed by a K rotated 90deg counter-clockwise. > >Any suggestions on how to identify the part? Is there a pointer somewhere >to how SMD components are marked? K is the typical symbol for the cathode. It might work very well without it if it was reverse bias protection. But it might have been used as a constant voltage drop of Vf. Ed From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Aug 29 17:13:05 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <41324D06.908@nktelco.net> References: <41324D06.908@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <709842e64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <41324D06.908@nktelco.net> "Charles H. Dickman" wrote: > Any suggestions on how to identify the part? Is there a pointer > somewhere to how SMD components are marked? Yee-upp - it's called the SMD Codebook: Add it to your bookmarks list - you never know when you might need it :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Television is so dull that children are doing their homework. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 29 17:12:16 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829175006.03147c68@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829175006.03147c68@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200408292215.SAA01995@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I have two identical 72pin memory SIMMS out of an HP workstation. >> One is damaged by having a single 3pin SMD component physically >> destroyed, with only the leads remaining. The second is complete >> and functional. The damaged component's reference designation is >> CR5, so I am thinking it is a rectifier and not a transistor. That would be my inclination too. >> The black plastic SOT-23 package is marked with 5A followed by a K >> rotated 90deg counter-clockwise. This says to me "five-amp rectifier pair", especially if the K is next to the middle lead. This strikes me as somewhat unlikely on a 72-pin memory module; I see no reason it would want a rectifier capable of carrying five amps. Do you have a scanner, or some other means of getting pictures of the two modules? I'd be happier if I could see the markings myself (not that I could necessarily say anything even if I did, of course). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 17:28:19 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <200408292112.OAA17106@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20040829222819.7883.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> I have a Quasar HHC - similar to the Panasonic RL-1400, with the BASIC ROM. http://oldcomputers.net/pics/hhc-basic-rom.jpg Steve. --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have been looking everywhere on the net for > development information > > for this old Panasonic Handheld (HHC RL H-1400). > I have basic > > information but I'm specifically looking for > information that will allow me > > to write a program in assembly language and run in > a ROM installed in > > the back. > > If you find that out, I think a lot of us would like > to know as well ^^ > > If yours is one of the New York Life preprogrammed > ones (mine is and has their > ROM), you may be able to dump it. I haven't tried > doing this yet since my > EPROMmer/reader is sitting in a box in my storage > shed and I haven't yet > got around to digging it out. There is a little red > flag waving in my head > that the pinout is not standard and that the address > lines were intentionally > farked up, but I'm not sure if I'm confusing this > with something else. > > No one has ever been able to find one of the BASIC > ROMs, let alone one of > the FORTH ROMs, yet either. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., > USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein > -------------------------- > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 29 17:47:13 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <20040829222819.7883.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> from steven at "Aug 29, 4 03:28:19 pm" Message-ID: <200408292247.PAA02102@floodgap.com> > I have a Quasar HHC - similar to the Panasonic > RL-1400, with the BASIC ROM. > > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/hhc-basic-rom.jpg That should work in the RL-1400. Any chance of getting a ROM dump? (Boy, that *would* make me try to dig out my EPROMmer!) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Queen, you shall be it if you wish/Look for your king -- Pink Floyd -------- From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 18:18:07 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <200408292247.PAA02102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20040829231807.30303.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> About the best I could do is to snail-mail the ROM to you. -or- I'll be in San Diego tomorrow - Monday. Steve. --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have a Quasar HHC - similar to the Panasonic > > RL-1400, with the BASIC ROM. > > > > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/hhc-basic-rom.jpg > > That should work in the RL-1400. Any chance of > getting a ROM dump? (Boy, that > *would* make me try to dig out my EPROMmer!) > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., > USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- Queen, you shall be it if you wish/Look for your > king -- Pink Floyd -------- > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 29 18:16:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <200408292215.SAA01995@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 29, 4 06:12:16 pm Message-ID: > >> The black plastic SOT-23 package is marked with 5A followed by a K > >> rotated 90deg counter-clockwise. > > This says to me "five-amp rectifier pair", especially if the K is next Are you suggesting a 5A diode (or diode pair) in an SOT23 package? I would be _very_ suprised. More like the '5A' is a code for the diode type. IIRC, every manufacturer did his own thing with this codes (at least for transistors) which makes life 'interesting. It could also be a zener of some unknown voltage. Can you figure out what it's connected to (do any of the connections go to supply lines or ground, for example). That may give soem clue. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 29 18:43:07 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:35 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408292351.TAA02231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> The black plastic SOT-23 package is marked with 5A followed by a K >>>> rotated 90deg counter-clockwise. >> This says to me "five-amp rectifier pair", especially if [...] > Are you suggesting a 5A diode (or diode pair) in an SOT23 package? I > would be _very_ suprised. I don't know the SOT23 package. I do know I have seen surface-mount devices I would have no trouble believing capable of carrying five amps. This is another reason I asked for pictures, if possible; if (as I infer from your note) the SOT23 package is too small for it to plausibly hold a five-amp device, that theory slips down the list. As I noted, though, I'd be surprised to see such a thing on a 72-pin memory module. :-) > More like the '5A' is a code for the diode type. That's one plausible other theory I have, too. A third is that the device is something more like a voltage regulator and the CR designation on the board does not indicate a rectifier, but instead, perhaps, a parts-list code, or maybe refers to some other device, or whatnot. Another reason to want pictures: to estimate how plausible some of those theories are. > Can you figure out what it's connected to (do any of the connections > go to supply lines or ground, for example). Yet another reason I'd like to see pictures. Many memory modules include solder pads for some large-size module; for a module of (say) half that size, only some of the RAM chips are installed. Such modules not infrequently include solder pads for what I might loosely call jumpers, to indicate the module size. It would not surprise me if that's what this device were - and if, for example, there are similar pads nearby with nothing attached on either stick, that would reinforce the theory. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From joe at barrera.org Sun Aug 29 16:52:24 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <41325018.9040305@barrera.org> Ed Kelleher wrote: > Their terminals had a rotary switch for baud rate at the upper left. > To freeze a listing that was scrolling by on their terminal, they'd > !quick! roll the switch to 0 baud or something, then !quick! roll it > back. > > What a kludge compared to Xon/Xoff ^S ^Q that decent terminals like > the VT52/VT100 used. :-) I used to use a VT50 with a rotary baud switch on the front. Never tried that trick, however (I think ^S/^Q worked fine with NorthStar BASIC on the IMSAI I had it connected to). - Joe From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Aug 29 19:51:31 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <200408292351.TAA02231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408292351.TAA02231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040829195131.198fc7aa.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:43:07 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > >>>> The black plastic SOT-23 package is marked with 5A followed by a > >K>>> rotated 90deg counter-clockwise. > >> This says to me "five-amp rectifier pair", especially if [...] > > Are you suggesting a 5A diode (or diode pair) in an SOT23 package? > > I would be _very_ suprised. > > I don't know the SOT23 package. I do know I have seen surface-mount > devices I would have no trouble believing capable of carrying five > amps. This is another reason I asked for pictures, if possible; if > (as I infer from your note) the SOT23 package is too small for it to > plausibly hold a five-amp device, that theory slips down the list. > > As I noted, though, I'd be surprised to see such a thing on a 72-pin > memory module. :-) > > > More like the '5A' is a code for the diode type. > > That's one plausible other theory I have, too. A third is that the > device is something more like a voltage regulator and the CR > designation on the board does not indicate a rectifier, but instead, > perhaps, a parts-list code, or maybe refers to some other device, or > whatnot. Another reason to want pictures: to estimate how plausible > some of those theories are. > > > Can you figure out what it's connected to (do any of the connections > > go to supply lines or ground, for example). > > Yet another reason I'd like to see pictures. Many memory modules > include solder pads for some large-size module; for a module of (say) > half that size, only some of the RAM chips are installed. Such > modules not infrequently include solder pads for what I might loosely > call jumpers, to indicate the module size. It would not surprise me > if that's what this device were - and if, for example, there are > similar pads nearby with nothing attached on either stick, that would > reinforce the theory. Perhaps he should use a DMM to carefully ohm out the part on the non-damaged module. If it's a diode it will conduct only one way. If it's a zero ohm shunt it will read as a short. Or it might be a capacitor. From dmhills at attglobal.net Sun Aug 29 19:57:15 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Sharp PC124x/5x/6x In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >I have the official serial port add-on for the PC1500 with the user >manual -- somewhere (I know where the unit is, of course). The manuals are online as PDFs for the PC-1500 / TRS-80 PC-2. http://www.pc1500.com -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Aug 29 18:44:18 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040829163721.02706e20@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Original IBM PC keyboard, Mac extended, Mark Ten terminal, and the one I am using right now labeled Micron made by NMB Technology model RT5158TW. Several of the Mac early keyboards are really nice, full smooth travel, but I think the best is the original extended. I am appalled by most current keyboards, short mushy travel, poor feel, and short life. I've started looking through all the keyboard piles I find for another good one like this Micron. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun Aug 29 20:02:25 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: VT-220 has a headache Message-ID: <040829210225.fd6@splab.cas.neu.edu> The way I understood the post, the only thing on the screen is about one inch high, with black every place else, which means vertical deflection is pretty much gone. It's been too long since I looked at crt stuff, but probably vertical deflection transistor. JOe Heck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 29 20:41:33 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Facit N4000 manual/docs/software? Message-ID: <001b01c48e32$7c617fd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Subject says it all... looking for them. Anyone have them? Jay West From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 21:42:07 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Billings Computer Corp. Message-ID: <20040830024207.2107.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> I caught a glimpse of one of these today in major disrepair while picking up something else. Unibody, dual 5.25" floppies. Billings Computer Corp. Anybody else have any more info on these? _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 29 22:09:51 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <41322B22.15758.290FF01@localhost> from Mike Davis at "Aug 29, 4 07:14:42 pm" Message-ID: <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> > About the best I could do is to snail-mail the ROM to > you. -or- I'll be in San Diego tomorrow - Monday. That's a very generous offer, but there are two problems ... first I'm presently in San Bernardino :( and won't be back in San Diego until Sunday, and only Sunday at that. The bigger problem, though, is actually getting the capsule out to read it. I opened up my HHC-4 and dug out the NYL capsules, which I hadn't examined too closely before. They *seem* to be regular 24-pin EPROMs (with an NYL sticker conveniently covering the UV window; they're 4K TMS 2532s, for those interested). The problem is not the chip, which seems to be a regular old ROM. The problem is that the DIP legs are wrapped *around* the capsule carrier, and digging the DIP out is probably going to damage the chip. I could try wiring it into my Jason-Ranheim Promenade, but I don't see much I could attach the wires to on the capsule side, and soldering leads directly on to the DIP legs is right out because I'm very worried I would ruin this first example of this capsule I've ever seen! Is the BASIC ROM similarly "wrapped" on yours? If it is, perhaps there's another way of doing this -- some way of reading out the contents of the ROM using the HHC itself. If you've got the printer, maybe if we could scrabble some way of printing out a hex dump, assuming this BASIC is halfway sane and has PEEK and POKE or a moral equivalent. We'd just have to figure out where in memory, but this is easier than it looks because it would have to start on a 4K page boundary, meaning we'd only have to glance at 16 possible areas. If one of them has BASIC keywords, we've found it. All this to say I would be *very* antsy about damaging a *very* rare ROM with my relatively novice EE skills, despite the fact I want it *very* much! -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Five is a sufficiently close approximation to infinity. -- Robert Firth ---- From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 22:07:50 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in WANG boxes? Message-ID: <20040830030750.22216.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> I snagged a Wang PC-280 from destruction today. Email me if interested. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mike-cc at msdsite.com Sun Aug 29 22:09:55 2004 From: mike-cc at msdsite.com (Mike Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> References: <41322B22.15758.290FF01@localhost> from Mike Davis at "Aug 29, 4 07:14:42 pm" Message-ID: <41323813.7968.2C38EBD@localhost> I think I can get the contents, if I can get a look at the ROM. Contact me directly if it's possible to get the ROM for dumping the contents. Mike On 29 Aug 2004 at 20:09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > About the best I could do is to snail-mail the ROM to > > you. -or- I'll be in San Diego tomorrow - Monday. > > That's a very generous offer, but there are two problems ... first I'm > presently in San Bernardino :( and won't be back in San Diego until Sunday, > and only Sunday at that. > > The bigger problem, though, is actually getting the capsule out to read it. > I opened up my HHC-4 and dug out the NYL capsules, which I hadn't examined > too closely before. They *seem* to be regular 24-pin EPROMs (with an NYL > sticker conveniently covering the UV window; they're 4K TMS 2532s, for those > interested). The problem is not the chip, which seems to be a regular old > ROM. The problem is that the DIP legs are wrapped *around* the capsule > carrier, and digging the DIP out is probably going to damage the chip. I > could try wiring it into my Jason-Ranheim Promenade, but I don't see much I > could attach the wires to on the capsule side, and soldering leads directly > on to the DIP legs is right out because I'm very worried I would ruin this > first example of this capsule I've ever seen! > > Is the BASIC ROM similarly "wrapped" on yours? If it is, perhaps there's > another way of doing this -- some way of reading out the contents of the ROM > using the HHC itself. If you've got the printer, maybe if we could scrabble > some way of printing out a hex dump, assuming this BASIC is halfway sane and > has PEEK and POKE or a moral equivalent. We'd just have to figure out where > in memory, but this is easier than it looks because it would have to start > on a 4K page boundary, meaning we'd only have to glance at 16 possible areas. > If one of them has BASIC keywords, we've found it. > > All this to say I would be *very* antsy about damaging a *very* rare ROM > with my relatively novice EE skills, despite the fact I want it *very* much! > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- Five is a sufficiently close approximation to infinity. -- Robert Firth ---- > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 29 23:53:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: <1093794732.1403.1.camel@gandalf.cox-internet.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Wayne Talbot wrote: > Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client > > Have you tried pegasus mail? Is it command line? So far I've searched far and wide and pursued half a dozen well-meaning but erroneous suggestions for various packages and I just don't think such an application exists. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 29 23:58:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Near-classic: Win95 beta CDs In-Reply-To: <000401c48e10$8b3a2100$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I'm trying to track down a particular program from the Windows 95 > beta program. I must have purged a bunch a while back by mistake. > > Here's what I'm looking for...I can't remember if it's on the Win95 > or DirectX beta disks, but it's some sort of space station demo that enables > you to access the various demo programs on the disk. Specifically, I'm > looking for the WAV and/or MIDI files from it. > > If any remembers this and can put their hands on it, please let me > know off-list. Thanks. I still happen to have the beta install set sitting here on my desk all dusty and whatnot. I can't believe they are still around. Anyway, if you give me an idea of what disk I should look on or what the filenames might be then I'll try to investigate it and see if I can't find the files you need. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 30 00:05:27 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4132B597.2060303@pacbell.net> Bill Dawson wrote: >>Years ago, I owned a data cassette drive made by a >>company called National Multiplex, presumably long >>defunct. It was obviously a modified audio cassette >>recorder, but in which the internal electronics had >>been completely replaced. Unlike the prevailing >>standard for cassette-based data storage on micros >>in that day, this drive used saturation recording >>(NRZI, I believe) instead of a modulated audio carrier. >>It was a very functional replacement for a paper tape >>reader/punch, and ran up to 9600 bps using hi-fi grade >>audio tapes. >> >>I would be interested in locating one of these beasts >>to replicate the setup I had on my IMSAI before I sold >>the drive years ago. The drive came with schematics, >>and as far as I remember, the circuitry was rather >>simple -- a couple of op amps and a few gates. >>Alternately, if I can locate a copy of the drawings, >>I may attempt to reproduce the design using a >>contemporary audio cassette mechanism. >> >>Has anyone ever seen one of these? >> >>--Bill >> > > > Yes, I still have the one I used with my SWTPC 6800, > along with the supplied documentation. The unit is > just a modified portable cassette player. National > Multiplex gutted the usual cassette player-recorder > circuitry and installed their circuit board. They also > increased the tape drive speed (by changing the diameter > of the drive motor pulley, IIRC). There were several > models, but they were all called Computer Aid. The square > black plastic model CCA-7 was the most popular and are > the ones I have. This model has the level meter on it. > I found and purchased another on eBay several years > ago, so they're still out there. Another model is the > rectangular silver Computer Aid model DC-3. If I come > across my documentation for it (I have a good idea where > it is, I just don't have the time to look for it), I'll > scan it and send you the url. It'll be on swtpc.com > somewhere. > > Bill > > From fernande at internet1.net Mon Aug 30 00:17:16 2004 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4132B85C.2050907@internet1.net> Try http://www.nettamer.net/ Nettamer, isn't quite command line, but it may work for you. It works very well for email and usenet, and is dirt simple. I used to use it on an 8088. I believe the author also has a few command line programs as well, but I've never used them. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Wayne Talbot wrote: > > >>Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client >> >>Have you tried pegasus mail? > > > Is it command line? > > So far I've searched far and wide and pursued half a dozen well-meaning > but erroneous suggestions for various packages and I just don't think such > an application exists. > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Aug 29 19:12:40 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <200408292351.TAA02231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408292351.TAA02231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <248b4de64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200408292351.TAA02231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> der Mouse wrote: > I don't know the SOT23 package. I do know I have seen surface-mount > devices I would have no trouble believing capable of carrying five > amps. This is another reason I asked for pictures, if possible; if (as > I infer from your note) the SOT23 package is too small for it to > plausibly hold a five-amp device, that theory slips down the list. A SOT23 is about the size of the body of a 1N914 or 1N4148 diode :) > > More like the '5A' is a code for the diode type. > > That's one plausible other theory I have, too. A third is that the > device is something more like a voltage regulator and the CR > designation on the board does not indicate a rectifier, but instead, > perhaps, a parts-list code, or maybe refers to some other device, or > whatnot. Another reason to want pictures: to estimate how plausible > some of those theories are. So no-one saw the link I posted then? It's listed as both a transistor (with a "CR" part designation, unlikely) and a rectifier diode - can't remember the specifics, but it was listed. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... "Bother", said Pooh, as he fell into the nitric acid bath From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Aug 30 02:35:15 2004 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: TV Show Alert for Aug 30th, 2004 in US Message-ID: Today at 11:00am Eastern on the Discovery Science Channel (just Science Channel now) is a show called BrainChild (listed in my cable listing as Computer Revolution). It is a 2003 documentary about the invention of the computer and covers the evolution to the integrated circuit. It also covers some info about fiber optic cable creation. It was also on at 3:00am today. Kinda neat seeing the Eniac and hearing the programmers and designers talking about it. Sorry about the short response time but I found it channel surfing. Greg Manuel >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From timothy.finegan at cmich.edu Wed Aug 25 18:32:18 2004 From: timothy.finegan at cmich.edu (Timothy Finegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Grid 1755 486slc Message-ID: Hi, I am looking for a Grid model 1755 486slc that might be for sale. I can be reached at tmfinegan@charter.net Thanks From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 25 18:55:15 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <20040825150830.K14267@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 25 August 2004 23:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? > > as a rule of thumb: > 40 would mean that there have been 39 prior failures. They > number starting at 1, not at zero. (cardinal v ordinal?) *nods* I understood it as they got water successfully displaced on the 40th try so that's what they called the product. Cheers w From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 26 12:04:17 2004 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826092558.03433408@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040826180200.01fa2ec8@slave> At 17:32 26/08/2004, you wrote: >How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? Presumably in terms of usability? OK... 1) Sharp MZ-80K 2) Sharp PC-xxxx series 3) Sinclair ZX81 & Spectrum 4) PET2001 5) Sinclair QL 6) Modern "mushy" keyboards (e.g. dell, compaq, new IBM) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:20:48 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408260905.22115.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: > List the best keyboards you have ever used. You might like > the feel, number of function keys, layout (let's not forget > Dvorak or more esoteric designs) or pure keyboard<->computer > love (you might really get off on Vaxen). Original IBM peecee - nice and clacky Apple Lisa, same reason and therefore ditto early Macs Later model RM 380Z (black one) ACT Sirius 1/Victor 9000 Acorn ACW VT1xx (wish I could peecee-ify it!) DEC LK201 (lack of ESC worrieth me not, I'm an EDT-head :) Atari Mega ST keyboards CPT 8520 (currently dead) Mac Design II keyboards (early fat ones) Apple ][GS NeXTstation (another one I want to peecee-ify) My current peecee keyboard (compaq heavy edition from a few years ago) Apple ][ and ][e There's probably more but you get the idea :) Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:24:55 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've used ever!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 26 August 2004 17:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: WORST keyboards ever (was Re: Best keyboards you've > used ever!) > > > How about the absolutely WORST keyboards? > > 1) Sinclair ZX series > 2) Coco 1 > 3) Coco 2 > 4) Aquarius (my first) > 5) Original PET Sharp MZ80K Memotech MTX (this pains me but they weren't the best) Any lightweight/cheap membrane job (see current peecee manufacturers) Kinnell, I can't think of any more right now, and that can't be right :) Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:26:51 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <1093539719.5841.203124345@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Vohs > Sent: 26 August 2004 18:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Best keyboards you've used ever! > > 2. The Original Macintosh keyboard. > 3. The Tandy 100/102/200 keyboards. Yes, I'd forgotten about those. The 100 one is excellent, and therefore by association so is the NEC equivalent. > Funny that a company that can't make a decent operating > system to save their, uhhh, assets can make such a > comfortable keyboard! Go figure! I suspect they had as much input in the design of that as I did :) Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 26 16:51:26 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: <005e01c48b9c$8a8bbff0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick/VCM SysOp > Sent: 26 August 2004 19:43 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: OT: Dream keyboard > > Hmmmm, daydreaming... The Microsoft version, the "Natural > Beverage Keyboard USB/IBA". You have to buy a client license > for each glass you use. The keyboard oozes turpentine when > you press the "Jack" key while in Outlook, until you install > hotfix K987666. ;-) Heh, I'd like a keyboard with all of these: An ANY key Separate F1 for when the keyboard is missing An 'I know what I'm doing' key A 'just fucking do it!' key And a cluster of ctrl-alt-del keys to make 3-fingered salutes easier to do :) Cheers w From davidewardjr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 21:00:42 2004 From: davidewardjr at yahoo.com (David Ward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Re; Mac SE boot disks Message-ID: <20040827020042.53082.qmail@web10803.mail.yahoo.com> Hello List, Thank you to all who have replied privately and/or on the list. A fellow listmember is sending a set to help me revive this Mac SE. Sincerely, David Ward --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From BerndtKrummrich at t-online.de Fri Aug 27 06:50:32 2004 From: BerndtKrummrich at t-online.de (Berndt Krummrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Realistic MPA 35A Message-ID: <000701c48c2c$0eb4dc00$cd29fea9@pckrummrich> Hello, My english is not so good. I hope, you can help me. I have from Ebay in Germany a Realistic MPA 35A. I think he is good for Microphone and for Music. I find of the Backside two Contact for Aux and for Phone Two Input for Microphone. This Realistic is for 1 Speaker, its Mono. Where is a contact for the Speaker? I find many Contacts on the Backside. I have two Speakers 120 Watts 8 Ohm >From the Speaker I have a red line and a black line. Where is the Contact for the Speaker. Thank you, for your Time Berndt From RupertKirkham at compuserve.com Fri Aug 27 17:51:02 2004 From: RupertKirkham at compuserve.com (Rupert Kirkham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors Message-ID: <200408271851_MC3-1-890C-1062@compuserve.com> Dear Jim, I followed this thread and tried the "FTP" addresses that were given regarding downloading the Inverse Assembler Development Package. Sadly without success as the directory structure has been changed. Therefore is there any chance of obtaining the software from another source. Funnily enough I have the reference manual as this is downloads from a couple of web sites. I am currently building a 68008 based system and I would like to have an inverse assembler for the HP1650A that I will be hooking up to it. Regards, Rupert. From root at parse.com Sat Aug 28 05:39:35 2004 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads Message-ID: <200408281039.GAA01636@parse.com> I've noticed a few spots of rust on some TU55 tape heads that I have. I'm wondering what I should do about it in the short term -- I've had an idea of putting something on the heads and then cleaning it off later, like oil or vaseline or... ? Any suggestions? Is there anything I can do with the heads later to clean the rust off? Are they totally hosed, or will they still work? This is on my "todo list" as far as restoration goes, just haven't gotten to it yet, but wanted to prevent any further damage if possible... Thanks in advance, -RK [If replying to me personally by email, you'll need to click on the URL that's mailed back to you to whitelist yourself.] -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From kevan at heydon.org Sat Aug 28 09:39:30 2004 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Newbridge VIVID ATM Network Kit Available Message-ID: <20040828151834.E12221-100000@goliath.heydon.org> I have some ATM kit that needs to find a new home. It ideally needs to be picked up from Cambridge UK but I can be flexible. Not sure if this kit has reached the ten year limit yet, but the fact that it's ATM fibre and is full of blinking lights surely makes it interesting to this audience. A couple of quick pictures first: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/pictures/newbridge-small.jpg Same but bigger: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/pictures/newbridge.jpg What you are getting is a complete setup consisting of the central Route Server (really a Sun SS20), a 12 port ATM Workgroup Switch and two 12 port 10/100Mbit ethernet Orange Ridges. All these are connected together with fibre. I have the rack mounting brackets too. It's all working fine and sat purring away, next to me at the moment. Building work starts at home in a few weeks time and it has to be gone by then. -- Kevan From jerry.schneider at verizon.net Sat Aug 28 15:55:10 2004 From: jerry.schneider at verizon.net (Jerry Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Poly 8813 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040828165309.02f89d88@incoming.verizon.net> I found an email from you on the net regarding the Polymorphic 8813. Do you have any docs for this system? If so, would it be possible to purchase copies? Or, dupe originals if available? Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you soon. - jerry From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 17:47:42 2004 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: HP memory modules Message-ID: <200408282247.i7SMlgqJ047547@huey.classiccmp.org> They have been spoken for! Jay From phirkel at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 28 17:58:43 2004 From: phirkel at sympatico.ca (Philippe Vachon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-300 - Null Modem Cable Message-ID: Howdy! I recently acquired a DEC MicroVAX 4000-300 and I want to connect it up to an old PC that I can use as a dumb terminal. Unfortunately, I lack a proper null modem cable, but I have a nice length of phone cable (it's the same connector pretty much, if you sand down the clip, right?) and a nice length of serial cable with connectors on each end. My question is, is it possible to jury rig these two pieces of cable, so that I can have my VAX up and running for at least a single user (Ethernet will come later! ;) ). If so, what lines should I cross (pin numbers would be nice :). Thanks. Phil. From sharon at rfci.net Sat Aug 28 18:56:32 2004 From: sharon at rfci.net (Sharon Hamrick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 Message-ID: <000801c48d5a$a6090ac0$772b52a6@default> Hello, Found your site searching on Yahoo for IBM 5110 or 5120. We have some equipment for sale maybe you might be interested in: 1 5120, IBM model 5110/3, 8" floppy drive, BASIC 1 5120 IBM model 5110/?, 8" floppy, BASIC/APL 1 5110 IBM model 5110A, internal tape drive, BASIC/APL 1 5114 IBM disk drive, 2 8" floppy drives 2 5103 printers We are an accounting firm who used these computers a very long time ago. We are moving this month, these have been in our office in storage and I would like to sell these if possible. If you are interested and would like any more detail, please contact us and I will try to provide any information needed. Some of this equipment worked when we quit using this but I do not know the condition since it has not been in use in many years. Thank you, Sharon Hamrick From jkalin196511 at mchsi.com Sat Aug 28 22:58:51 2004 From: jkalin196511 at mchsi.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Xerox Memorywriter System Disks Message-ID: <200408290416.i7T4GofO049385@huey.classiccmp.org> Do you have this item? If you still do I'm very interested in it. I know this is might be a long shot since the original message is from 2002. Sincerely, Jim Kalin ____________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ Original Message: AVAIL: Xerox 630 Memorywriter system disks Robert F. Schaefer cctech@classiccmp.org Sun Dec 29 19:59:35 2002 * Previous message: Section 9? (HP 1000 power supply) * Next message: M200 interfacing * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Found a disk case at the thrift store that claims to contain the system software for a Xerox Memorywriter 630. Contains four 5.25" floppys marked as follows: white XEROX 630 Memorywriter label, blank, non-write-protected green XEROX 630 Memorywriter label, `Base System', `REORDER NO. 9R23303 VERSION 6.0 3Q85-B', write-protected blue XEROX 630 Memorywriter label, `Options', `REORDER NO. 9R23302 VERSION 4.0 1Q85-B', write-protected pink XEROX 630 Memorywriter label, `Forms', `REORDER NO. 9R23301 VERSION 3.0 1Q85-B', write-protected also 2 each spare pink & blue labels w/o the version, etc. info. No apparent physical damage, and the oxide showing in the window isn't funny-looking, but YMMV. Available for shipping, but I'm currently in need of a set of four 2MB SIMMs (w/ IBM's SPD) to fit in a P70... hint hint... :) Bob _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> * Previous message: Section 9? (HP 1000 power supply) * Next message: M200 interfacing * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sun Aug 29 01:25:45 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks Message-ID: <200408290625.CAA06564@ss10.danlan.com> I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a 1797-style controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all of my old disks with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector (not bad for media that is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to have run through *drives* at an alarming rate, though I hope that the cleaning disks I have on order will restore some of them. Is anyone interested in: -Technical details (the method should work for many non-standard FM formats)? -Having me read any H8 disks? -Any distribution images that I might have? Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From trestivo at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 29 10:37:50 2004 From: trestivo at cfl.rr.com (thom restivo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: ADM3A and Teletype Model 43 available Message-ID: <00bc01c48dde$24eb6800$6701a8c0@vaiolaptop> To all.just 3 days left on an ADM3A terminal and a Teletype Model 43, both in good condition. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=5118849457&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=5118846659&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1 thanks. From classiccomp-tech at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 29 12:01:33 2004 From: classiccomp-tech at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: MicroVAX3100 boot disk limited to 1GB - which ones? Message-ID: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Which models of the MicroVAX3100 were limited to <1GB boot disks? I've a stack of MicroVAX3100 model 30s that I'm tarting up & I'm trying to acquire HDDs for and couldn't find if they were affected by the limitation? ta greg (ps : anyone UK want a 3100? Just ask. shed is full of the things rescued from Witchy / Jules Richardson :) From rorypoole_1999 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 02:22:40 2004 From: rorypoole_1999 at yahoo.com (Rory Poole) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: ibm xt memory Message-ID: <20040830072240.86715.qmail@web41408.mail.yahoo.com> Do you still have the (1/2 a check box full of XT type memory) and the (IBM XT motherboard, supposed to be last bios revison, and was purchased by me as such. $10) _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Aug 30 05:04:20 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011132A3@gd-mail03.oce.nl> I would first check if the rust is actually from the metal of the head or just "rust" that has come off from an old tape ... that can probably be removed with a soft cloth. I am not so sure about using *any* fluid on the head! I do not have experience in this field, but don't those heads have a small slit / gap? (like all other magnetic heads) What will the fluid do when it get in that gap ...? - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Robert Krten > Sent: zaterdag 28 augustus 2004 12:40 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: Rust on tape heads > > I've noticed a few spots of rust on some TU55 tape heads that > I have. I'm wondering what I should do about it in the short > term -- I've had an idea of putting something on the heads > and then cleaning it off later, like oil or vaseline or... ? > > Any suggestions? > > Is there anything I can do with the heads later to clean the > rust off? Are they totally hosed, or will they still work? > This is on my "todo list" as far as restoration goes, just > haven't gotten to it yet, but wanted to prevent any further > damage if possible... > > Thanks in advance, > -RK > > [If replying to me personally by email, you'll need to click on > the URL that's mailed back to you to whitelist yourself.] > -- > Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. > Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training > at www.parse.com > Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 > minicomputers! > From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Aug 30 04:48:49 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <41325018.9040305@barrera.org> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040830053402.032a89b0@192.168.0.1> At 05:52 PM 8/29/2004, you wrote: >> Their terminals had a rotary switch for baud rate at the upper left. >> To freeze a listing that was scrolling by on their terminal, they'd >> !quick! roll the switch to 0 baud or something, then !quick! roll it >> back. >> >> What a kludge compared to Xon/Xoff ^S ^Q that decent terminals like >> the VT52/VT100 used. :-) > >I used to use a VT50 with a rotary baud switch on the front. >Never tried that trick, however (I think ^S/^Q worked fine >with NorthStar BASIC on the IMSAI I had it connected to). I don't think it would have worked, at least with unmodified DEC hardware I was familiar with, but YMMV. You might dial up the baud rate on the terminal side, but the computer side baud rate was usually fixed with solder jumpers. Later, DEC engineers -- pushing the envelope (the same ones whose answer to IBM's Personal Computer was a 400 lbs cabinet based 11/03 with 8" floppies), moved to wire wrap jumpers, but not on .1" centers so you could use standard shorting clips. Then the DH11 and DZ11 multi-line SLU's had programmable baud rates. But baud rate was either a SYSGEN option, or a keyboard monitor type command like SET TT1 BAUD=119200 ( right!), something dumb terminals like the VT5x,VT1x, VT2x ... VTnx couldn't do by themselves. QBus CPU boards with built in SLU (KDF11-B, KDJ11-B, KA630 MVII etc.) could dial up the SLU baud rate from a switch on the back panel of the box. But this didn't change the terminal baud rate. Like I say, I marvelled at how elegantly kludgy the HP terminals were. Ed From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 30 05:06:32 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Very sweet Altair 8800b setup on Ebay Message-ID: <4132FC28.5030607@pacbell.net> Except for the screen rot on the terminal... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119822174&rd=1 --Bill From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 30 05:10:58 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Poly 8813 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040828165309.02f89d88@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <41331952.16395.6B1BC916@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2004 16:55 meinte Jerry Schneider: > I found an email from you on the net regarding the Polymorphic 8813. > Do you have any docs for this system? If so, would it be possible to > purchase copies? Or, dupe originals if available? > Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Well, the best Pperson on the planet to ask would be Marvin Johnston marvin@rain.org Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 30 05:22:46 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-300 - Null Modem Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040830102246.GB15927@hoss.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, Aug 28, 2004 at 06:58:43PM -0400, Philippe Vachon wrote: > I recently acquired a DEC MicroVAX 4000-300 and I want to connect it up > to an old PC that I can use as a dumb terminal. [...] > If so, what lines should I cross (pin numbers would be nice :). http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&q=vax+4000+mmj+pinout&btnG=Suche&meta= -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 30 05:25:38 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: MicroVAX3100 boot disk limited to 1GB - which ones? In-Reply-To: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040830102538.GC15927@hoss.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, Aug 29, 2004 at 06:01:33PM +0100, classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk wrote: > Which models of the MicroVAX3100 were limited to <1GB boot disks? AFAIK the limitation is that the boot partition must be entirely in the first GB, but you can use bigger disks. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 30 06:19:11 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <200408292247.PAA02102@floodgap.com> References: <20040829222819.7883.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> from steven at "Aug 29, 4 03:28:19 pm" Message-ID: <4133294F.11547.6B5A3DFA@localhost> Am 29 Aug 2004 15:47 meinte Cameron Kaiser: > > I have a Quasar HHC - similar to the Panasonic > > RL-1400, with the BASIC ROM. > > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/hhc-basic-rom.jpg > That should work in the RL-1400. Any chance of getting a ROM dump? (Boy, that > *would* make me try to dig out my EPROMmer!) We should talk more - I had them with me, last time we met at VCF :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 30 07:23:32 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Newbridge VIVID ATM Network Kit Available In-Reply-To: <20040828151834.E12221-100000@goliath.heydon.org> References: <20040828151834.E12221-100000@goliath.heydon.org> Message-ID: <1269.192.168.0.2.1093868612.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Just the fella! I've been meaning to mail for as long as I've been living in cambridgeshire :) I've also had a big buttoned CBM vfd calculator for you in the passenger footwell of the car for as long as I've been living there so there's nowt like being prompt eh, particularly since I'm now only about 20 minutes from you. You want? If so I'll get the model number - it's not yer common or garden little C= job, it's a bigger desk calculator. cya -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 30 07:23:52 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: S.F. Bay Area -- PDP-11 HW available -- Disks and Tape for 11/44 Message-ID: <41331C58.4000301@pacbell.net> I was up at Mike Quinn's on Saturday, and inquired about classic computers. After mentioning the PDP-11 by name, the guy there (Maurice) pointed me to an 11/44 he had in the back. The racks were already spoken for, and the contents had been pulled out and were sitting face-down on the floor. There was an 11/44 CPU, two RA-81 disk drives, and a 9-track tape drive, a TU-80 or TU-81, I believe. He was willing to let it go pretty cheap, $100 for the CPU and RA-81s, or $50 for the CPU. He thought the motors in the tape drive would sell for $25 each, so he wanted at least $50 for that. Seeing the lack of respect this poor old machine was getting (dumped on the floor to salvage the rack), and having some space in my trunk, I snapped up the CPU without much further thought. I figure a collector should have a shot at those drives before Quinn's sells them to a scrapper or someone who wants to strip them for parts. I don't have the space for them, nor enough interest in the later 11's to justify renting any more on their account. I could possibly be talked out of the CPU. I'd certainly take a smaller Q-bus '11 in trade. Heck, a convincing promise of a good home with some happy peripherals to talk to and reimbursement of the $50 I spent would probably do. :) --Bill From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 30 07:40:00 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <4133294F.11547.6B5A3DFA@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Aug 30, 4 01:19:11 pm" Message-ID: <200408301240.FAA14916@floodgap.com> > We should talk more - I had them with me, last time we met at VCF :) HMMM! Are you going to be at VCF *this* year? :) If so, I'll bring up my HHC and printer. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- If you think ignorance is expensive, try education. ------------------------ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 30 07:20:07 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040830053402.032a89b0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <007d01c48e8b$afd22640$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Ed wrote... > I don't think it would have worked, > at least with unmodified DEC hardware I was familiar with, but YMMV. > > You might dial up the baud rate on the terminal side, > but the computer side baud rate was usually fixed with solder jumpers. Actually, it probably would have worked, as a common (although not required) setup for HP terminals was that the serial interface in the host was set for external baud rate, and the terminal provided the clocking. So while I can't go from experience because I don't have a 264X terminal yet, I suspect it would work. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From rcini at optonline.net Mon Aug 30 07:45:25 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:36 2005 Subject: Near-classic: Win95 beta CDs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c48e8f$3959caf0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Sellam: Thanks. Actually after talking to John Faust last night I found the disk...it was a "Microsoft Games Sampler" disk that came out after the W95 beta. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 12:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Near-classic: Win95 beta CDs On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I'm trying to track down a particular program from the Windows 95 > beta program. I must have purged a bunch a while back by mistake. > > Here's what I'm looking for...I can't remember if it's on the Win95 > or DirectX beta disks, but it's some sort of space station demo that enables > you to access the various demo programs on the disk. Specifically, I'm > looking for the WAV and/or MIDI files from it. > > If any remembers this and can put their hands on it, please let me > know off-list. Thanks. I still happen to have the beta install set sitting here on my desk all dusty and whatnot. I can't believe they are still around. Anyway, if you give me an idea of what disk I should look on or what the filenames might be then I'll try to investigate it and see if I can't find the files you need. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 30 07:37:21 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks References: <200408290625.CAA06564@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <011101c48e8e$18715fc0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> It was written... > I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a 1797-style > controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all of my old disks > with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector (not bad for media that > is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to have run through *drives* at > an alarming rate, though I hope that the cleaning disks I have on order will > restore some of them. Is anyone interested in: I have a huge cache of H8/H89/Z100 software, half a room full at the least (the other half of the room being documentation for same). Where are you located? I'd rather not ship it all, but would welcome someone to come over and archive the bits. I believe I have a wall full of Magnolia drives, Heath 8"FD/HD combo boxes, etc. I would bet I have more than a few spare hard sector drives as well, many new in the box. Someday I'll get the time to go through my Heath holdings... a project for my retirement no doubt :> Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 30 07:55:38 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: DEC VT stuff & HP stuff Message-ID: <011f01c48e90$a5e50120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> The VT100 power supply has been spoken for (as have the keyboards). The LA120 has tentatively been spoken for. The next round of offerings will probably be a rather large amount of HP 21XX interface cards. They will be posted here soon as I go through and run diags on each one (so they will all be known good boards). This will take some time as there's about 150 boards I have to go through :\ I'm looking for 12880 cards, 12920/21 mux sets, FAB boards, FEM boards, and 12531 HS terminal cards. Also DG eclipse cards. Still looking for a DG 6031 floppy drive, and HP 264X terminals. Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 30 07:59:53 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: S.F. Bay Area -- PDP-11 HW available -- Disks and Tape for 11/44 References: <41331C58.4000301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <012801c48e91$3dffe880$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Bill wrote... > I could > possibly be talked out of the CPU. I'd certainly take a smaller Q-bus > '11 in trade. If someone with no /44's wants it, let them have it over my request. But barring that, I'd probably trade away a Qbus 11/23 or 11/73 system for the 44. Depends on what cards are in it, and if the power supply is ok :) Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Aug 30 08:03:17 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <007d01c48e8b$afd22640$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040829065335.024a2b90@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040830053402.032a89b0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040830085127.032bee60@192.168.0.1> At 08:20 AM 8/30/2004, you wrote: > > I don't think it would have worked, > > at least with unmodified DEC hardware I was familiar with, but YMMV. > > > > You might dial up the baud rate on the terminal side, > > but the computer side baud rate was usually fixed with solder jumpers. > >Actually, it probably would have worked, as a common (although not required) >setup for HP terminals was that the serial interface in the host was set for >external baud rate, and the terminal provided the clocking. So while I can't >go from experience because I don't have a 264X terminal yet, I suspect it >would work. I was thinking of the DEC terminals like the VT52. But something was nagging at me and I went and looked at the prints. The DEC DLV11-J, a 4 port unbuffered SLU had a clock I/O pin on it's Berg connector. It could output the 16x internal baud clock on that pin to drive a terminal, or accept a 16x external clock from a terminal, for each UART. I don't know that any DEC terminals had an external baud generator however. But if they did, they could have driven the DLV11-J as you say the HP systems worked. I've wired a zillion DEC terminals and berg connectors only using 3 wires (tx, rx, ground). Sent the entire Matanuska Electric Co-op (Alaska) database from a Datapoint system to an 11/70 over 1 wire. (yup, no handshaking - blow and go) http://www.macro-inc.com/MatanuskaConnection300.jpg Ed From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 08:39:20 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: OT: Submissions for an IT careers book? Message-ID: <20040830133920.67206.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all... I'm putting together a guidebook about IT careers for Vault.com (a jobs and careers site here in New York). I'm writing the majority of the book from personal experience, but my editors asked me to solicit a few "day in the life" sidebars from people in the field. The idea is that someone such as a student can read the sidebars to get an idea of what you actually DO all day in the role of (fill in your title). I could use some submissions for jobs such as network engineers, SAN/backup administrator, QA engineer, tech writer, product manager, etc. (already have one from the programmer specialty). Basically you'd just write a fictional but realistic hour-by-hour scenario of what your typical day is like. It's up to you whether your name/company name are included. Of course, the benefit to having your name/company name included is the free press and the glory of pointing out your name in print, the next time you're in Barnes & Noble with friends. :) The catch? I need some of these sidebars as soon as humanly possible, in the next couple of days. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help! - Evan (PS -- please reply directly to me, let's NOT make this a discussion thread.) From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 30 08:48:41 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011132A3@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <16691.12345.235374.750868@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> I would first check if the rust is actually from the metal Gooijen> of the head or just "rust" that has come off from an old Gooijen> tape ... that can probably be removed with a soft cloth. I Gooijen> am not so sure about using *any* fluid on the head! I do Gooijen> not have experience in this field, but don't those heads Gooijen> have a small slit / gap? (like all other magnetic heads) Gooijen> What will the fluid do when it get in that gap ...? Your guess about oxide from a tape sounds reasonable. Tape head gaps are filled with a nonmagnetic filler; they aren't open. Tape heads are designed to be cleaned with fluids. Head cleaner made for audio tape units should be fine. I have used good quality isopropyl alcohol, as well as politically incorrect fluorocarbon liquids. DECtapes (TU55/TU56) are the most abuse-resistant tape drives in recorded history, but they do like occasional cleaning. paul From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Aug 30 10:17:15 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Interesting Mil/DOS computer site Message-ID: Found this whilst ruffling about: http://itweb.salisbury.edu/~rafantini/military.htm Interesting to see a car tire parked on top of a laptop.... and the Grids in Olive Drab. Cheers John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 30 10:07:44 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? In-Reply-To: <069101c48df5$de0e4e80$524f0945@thegoodw> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040830110744.009ce100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Glen and everyone else, I'm still alive and kicking. Charlie came DIRECTLY through the town that I live in. Windspeed was offically 105 to 115 MPH but I watched out the window as several small tornadoes went through and the wind speed in them was much higher. I watched as the wind would sudden reverse direction and everything took off in the opposite direction or sometimes just went round and round. Some of the trees around here split lenthwise and are now twisted up like a piece of rope! The trees around here took a REAL BEATING! I'd say that OVER 99% of the trees are badly damaged. And this part of Florida has LOTS of trees. A lot of the trees were completed up rooted. Probably 3/4 of the large still standing trees had the tops broken out of them about 15 feet above the ground. The remainder of the big trees are beat all to hell with many major branches broken out. The smaller trees (<10') didn't have the tops and limbs broken out of them but many were uprooted and the ones that weren't have been bent over and are all pointing north! It really looks bizarre! You just have to see the damage to believe it! I'll try to post some pictures later. I have a large pine tree that fell in my yard and landed on the back of my daughter's Daewoo Naubira. The top of it also landed on the roof of my house. The Daewoo took most of the blow so there wasn't much damage to the roof of the house but the car has significant damage. I'm sure that one of the tornadoes got that tree. The main wind was blowing north but the tree fell to the west! I have several sheds behind the house and I lost the roof off of one and all the roof shingles from another (the plywood sheathing held). The door on another one blew open and the doorway was facing directly into the wind. The back and side walls of that one are all bowed out and the corners are split open. It looks like someone inflated a ballon inside of a cardboard box! I'm sure that everything in all three sheds got a good soaking but I haven't had a chance to look and see. An dto tell the truth I'm not sure that I want to know! I had about half of someones roof and aluminium siding all over my yard. BTW there were so many tree limbs down in my yard that you literally couldn't walk through it. I spent 2 1/2 days just pulling out the big ones. Everyone in this area has similar problem and the sides of the road sides all look like hedges now from all the tree limbs and logs that are piled up and waiting to be hauled away. Most of the houses (including mine) here have wooden finces and they're all gone. I'm now seeing neighbors that I haven't seen in years! We didn't have power for several days. My father lives several counties away and has a 10KW generator. I finally got out and went over and borrowed it and brought it back. It wasn't running but I thought I'd try to fix it. That trip took 1 1/2 days and about 2 hours after I got home, the power came back on! You'll never truely appreciate electric power till you've been without it for several days in a Florida summer!!!! I was out of power for about 3 days, Glen's power was out for over a week! and there are still some people that don't have power yet (over two weeks). The first two days after the storm weren't too bad (low 90s) but since them the temperature has risen to the mid 90s and the humidity is well over 90%. Today is the first time that I've spent any time on the net. I've been busier than a one-armed paper hanger but MOST of the outside work is complete. Now I just have to clean inside the house and catch up on all the E-mail, E-bay, phone calls, etc, etc, etc. Joe At 02:27 PM 8/29/04 -0400, you wrote: >I've spoken to Joe several times since Charley hit. I live in Orlando >and Joe's in Oviedo (a small city east of Orlando). Charley came >right up through Orlando, and there was a lot of property damage >here, but fortunately a very small number of people were actually >hurt. > >One of Joe's cars was smashed by a falling tree >and a couple of his sheds lost their roofs. > >My wife and I had no electricity in our house for seven days. >Temperatures were in the mid-nineties (Fahrenheit), and with >no light, stove, air conditioning or hot water it was a pretty >crappy experience. > >Joe mentioned to me that he's been too busy to post anything >to the list lately, but I'm sure we'll hear from him again here soon. > >Later -- > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" >Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:11 PM >Subject: Anyone heard from Joe Rigdon? > > >> >> Say, I don't believe we've heard from Joe since the hurricane in Florida. >> I hope he's OK. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >mputers ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >> >> > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 30 11:00:58 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: New toys: 1944 IBM !!! Warning OT Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The past couple of weeks weren't a complete lose. On my trip out of town to find a generator I finally manage to pick up something that I've had my eye on for quite a while. A 1944 made IBM (wait for it!) Carbine! Yeap, a gun! A US model M1 .30 caliber carbine. This was made at IBM's #4 plant in Poughkeepsie, New York. According to the SN it was made between January and March of 1944 and this one appears to be 99% original. The only thing that appears to be non-original is the butt plate. All the other parts are the right style and markings for the period/manufacturer. This one even has orignal IBM manufacturered barrel and reciever (many were made under sub-contract by Auto Ordanance and are of inferior quality). The stock and handguard are interesting, they're marked BR-B (made for IBM by Milton Bradley!!!). Also picked up a mint LOW sn (~7000) Inland M1 ( made 1942!!) and a mint Rockola M1. (Rockola manufactured juke boxs prior and subsequent to WW II). I working on picking up a couple more including one made by National Postal Meter and one made by UN-Quality and, with some luck, an ULTRA RARE Irwin-Pederson. Wish me luck! Joe From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 30 11:47:08 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Rescue DEC gear? Message-ID: <200408300947.08845.lbickley@bickleywest.com> A San Francisco Bay Area scrapper has the following DEC gear about to be scrapped. I've looked at it - and most of it is very clean. I'll reply with his name and email address if you let me know you are interested. I have no business interest in this transaction. Dec 5500 system --------------------- Ra90 drive missing H7142 power supply TK70 drive H7868-A REV E03 POWER SUPPLY M9404-PA KDA 50/M7165-00 KDA 50/M7164-00 TQK70/M7559-00 CXY08-M/M3119-YA DELQA-SA/M7516-PA KS220-AA/M7639-AP M7639-AF M7637 KN220/M7638 H7868-A DO1 DEC 9644 ------------- Ra90 drive missing H7142 POWER SUPPLY H7868-A M9060-YA KDA 50/M7165-00 KDA 50/M7164-00 CXY08-M/M3119-YA M9405-PA H7868-A Vax 3600 -------------- RA82 H7660C TK70 H7868-A Rev c KDA50/M7164-00 KDA50/M7165-00 EMULEX UC08 ASSY NO. UC0810201-04 REVR CXY08-M/M3119-YA REV D03 TQK70/M77559-00 DELQA-SA/M7516-PA MS650-AA/M7621-A MS650-AA/M7621-A MS650-AA/M7621-A MS650-AA/M7620-AA H7868-A REV C 4-RA92 2-RA90 DEC 5500 220-QH-D9 BA400, KN220 ------------------------------------------------- NO DRIVES KDA50/M7165-00 KDA50/M7164-00 MS220-BA/M7639 REV A2 KN220/M7637 F4 KN220/M7638 F4 H7874-00 VAX 4000/500 ------------------ KA670-AA REV C3 MS670 REV A ACTUAL BOARDS UNDER ABOVE MARKED PANELS: L4002 BA L4004 CT L4004 CP H7874-00 B03 Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 A-LA , BA42A, RZ55/RX23 Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12N-B-XA, BA42A, RZ56 Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 Dec Storage Exp. Model RZ5X-MT, BA42A, NO DRIVES Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 B-HA, RZ56/TZ30 Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12N-XA,BA42A, ? Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 TK50Z-GA RZ55-FA VAXSTATION 3100 M76 MODEL VS43A-BD VAXSTATION 3100 M76 MODEL VS43A-CZ VAXSTATION 3100 M76 MODELVS43A-BD VAXSTATION 3100 M38 MODEL WS42A-DA VAXSTATION 3100 M38 MODEL WS42A-DA VAXSTATION 4000 60 MODEL VS46K-AB CPU KA46,ZZF HF00005B VAXSTATION 4000 60 MODEL VS46K-AD CPU KA46, ZZF 00005B, CD-ROM INSTALLED VAX 4000-200 RACKMOUNT 660QK-A9, BA400 CPU MOD KA660 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DRV1W-SA/M7651-PA KWV11-SA/M4002-PA P/N 30-18690-01(ML01338 BARCODE) KW11-SA/M4002-PA B1 WITH COAX CONNECTOR CXY08-M/M3119-YA REV D09 DELQA-SA/M7516-PA C03 (NO FUSE INTALLED MISSING FUSE CAP) CLEARPOINT CPCB-0053 REV D DCME-M30 CLEARPOINT CPCB-0053 REV D DCME-M30 PANEL SAYS MS650-BA/M7622-A A01 PANEL SAYS KA650/M7626-AA C03 UNDERNEATH ABOVE PANELS: M7626-AA C05 715AA H7874-00 B03 POWER SUPPLY TK70 RF22 70-25972-01 A01 RF73-EA A01, 70-28814-01 B03,(54-19119-01 A09) OTHER ITEMS RRD40 EXTERNAL CDROM MODEL SC008-AB A 70-18771 REV A MODEL SC008-AB B VSXXX AB DIGIPAD WITH PUCK DEC 3000 -500HY7883-YA REV C06 NO DRIVES MODEL PE50A-A9 CPU KN15 DRIVE R226E DEC 3000 -? NO LABLE LOOKS NJUST LIKE OTHER DEC 3000 1-DAT DRIVE CD-ROM RZ26-E TWO OTHER UNKNOWN 3 ? ? DRIVES Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Aug 30 11:57:05 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Rescue DEC gear? In-Reply-To: <200408300947.08845.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Lyle wrote: > A San Francisco Bay Area scrapper has the following DEC gear > about to be scrapped. I've looked at it - and most of it is > very clean. > > I'll reply with his name and email address if you let me know you are > interested. > > I have no business interest in this transaction. It would be great if they (yes, I know who they are) also listed their asking price. Last time I checked with them, they wanted a lot more for it than just scrap price. --f From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 30 12:16:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Poly 8813 Message-ID: <200408301716.KAA15062@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jerry Schneider" > >I found an email from you on the net regarding the Polymorphic 8813. > >Do you have any docs for this system? If so, would it be possible to >purchase copies? Or, dupe originals if available? > >Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you soon. > > - jerry Hi Jerry I have a User's Guide and a copy of the Systems Programmers Guide. I have some software as well. I've written a program that handshakes with the Poly 8813's ftp program ( not to be confused with todays ftp ). It can be used to transfer programs/files to and from the Poly 8813. I don't currently have a way to copy entire disk images but if you have a bootable disk with the ftp, you can transfer files ( using my program that requires a PC with DOS ). I have schematics for the CPU and video boards but nothing for the RAM or disk controller cards. Do you have an 5-1/4 drive machine or do you have 8 inch drives? Email me directly and we can talk more. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 30 12:25:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks Message-ID: <200408301725.KAA15069@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Dan We have a separate mail group specifically for H8/H89 and also a program archive. We are interested in disk images as well. I have written a bootstrap method of bringing a H8/H89 machine up from scratch with a serial cable and some blank disk. This can also be used as a general disk image transfer program. We would like to get any information on your methods into the archive and also images you may have. Send a message to with body: subscribe sebhc To get to the mail group. It is a quite group right now but the archives have a lot of good stuff. Dwight >From: "Dan Lanciani" > >I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a 1797-style >controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all of my old disks >with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector (not bad for media that >is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to have run through *drives* at >an alarming rate, though I hope that the cleaning disks I have on order will >restore some of them. Is anyone interested in: > >-Technical details (the method should work for many non-standard FM formats)? > >-Having me read any H8 disks? > >-Any distribution images that I might have? > > Dan Lanciani > ddl@danlan.*com > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 30 12:31:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads Message-ID: <200408301731.KAA15073@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If the heads themselves have some rust, you need to polish the heads a little before dragging tapes across it. The rust pits will have sharp edges on them that will damage the tapes. You should use a fine polishing compound, like jewelers rouge or cerium oxide to burnish the edges so they don't do more damage. Dwight >From: "Gooijen H" > >I would first check if the rust is actually from the metal of the >head or just "rust" that has come off from an old tape ... that >can probably be removed with a soft cloth. >I am not so sure about using *any* fluid on the head! >I do not have experience in this field, but don't those heads have >a small slit / gap? (like all other magnetic heads) >What will the fluid do when it get in that gap ...? > >- Henk. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Robert Krten >> Sent: zaterdag 28 augustus 2004 12:40 >> To: cctech@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Rust on tape heads >> >> I've noticed a few spots of rust on some TU55 tape heads that >> I have. I'm wondering what I should do about it in the short >> term -- I've had an idea of putting something on the heads >> and then cleaning it off later, like oil or vaseline or... ? >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> Is there anything I can do with the heads later to clean the >> rust off? Are they totally hosed, or will they still work? >> This is on my "todo list" as far as restoration goes, just >> haven't gotten to it yet, but wanted to prevent any further >> damage if possible... >> >> Thanks in advance, >> -RK >> >> [If replying to me personally by email, you'll need to click on >> the URL that's mailed back to you to whitelist yourself.] >> -- >> Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. >> Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training >> at www.parse.com >> Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 >> minicomputers! >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 30 12:36:23 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard References: Message-ID: <41336597.5000104@jetnet.ab.ca> Adrian Graham wrote: > Heh, I'd like a keyboard with all of these: > An ANY key I want the 'ANY OTHER' key. I don't like most keyboards. The best keyboard I used was a surplus ASCII style terminal keyboard around 1983 that I was adapting to a z80 computer at the time. While the keyboard was flakey I liked the feel and layout of the keyboard. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 30 12:45:45 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: OT: Dream keyboard In-Reply-To: <20040827124322.K59574@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <413383E9.1148.6CBC2652@localhost> Am 27 Aug 2004 12:48 meinte Fred Cisin: > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > OK, all this talk about best and worst, what features would you have on your > > > dream keyboard? > > Mine would have a Jack key and a Coke key. If you pressed them together > > you got a Jack & Coke. If you wanted to go for the kill you'd just hit > > the Jack key several times. The next morning you'd press the Coke key. > I assume that you mean cola,... *G* > Be sure that you stick with Coca-Cola, NOT PEPSI! > Pepsi has some past history with computers and keyboards: > I have always reassured my beginning students that nothing > that they accidentally enter through the keyboard of their > computers would actually DAMAGE the computer. One wiseguy > said, "I entered a Pepsi." > After Three Mile Island, Saturday Night Live postulated that > it was caused by "The Pepsi Syndrome", the result of spilling > a Pepsi into a computer keyboard. > Shortly after that, the U.S.A. and USSR (CCCP) normalized You mean SSSR - you're still using Latin letters :) > diplomatic relations enough to import vodka and export Pepsi > to Russia. That was followed almost immediately by Chernobyl. > Surely that could not be coincidence > Until their recent bailout, Apple computers ride into failure > was with a former Pepsi exedcutive at the helm. > Coincidence? I beg to differ here, as much as I dislike Pepsi, the Pepsi guy brought the Newton to life, and that's still the damn best PDA ever. And wasn't it re recent 'saviour' of Apple who put it on the wrong track in the first place? Well, anyway, I agree, Pepsi is evil! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 30 12:33:29 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: NH/VT area goodies... Message-ID: <010701c48eb7$77115340$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I'm posting on behalf of Marion.... > -------------------------------------------- > > CALLING NH/VT COLLECTORS: > > There's a nonprofit organization called WinCycle in Windsor, Vermont > that receives all of a local university's unwanted computer equipment, > which they then fix up and sell or donate to people and schools who > can't afford new machines. I've been volunteering there weekly for a > few months and it's really quite an operation. > > This has been a rough year -- burglaries, management upheavals, rising > costs -- and to top it off, they just found out that they have to > vacate their corner of the warehouse by the end of September, because > the warehouse owner found a tenant who wants the entire building, and > the rental agreement is only month-to-month. We've got to start moving > stuff out of there and into another building just down the street, > pronto, and the new building is less than half the space we have now. > > To get an idea of what we're dealing with, take a look at this: > http://www.wincycle.org/images/wc-panorama.jpg > > Anything that isn't considered saleable (i.e., new enough to surf the > web and run MS Office) will be scrapped if someone doesn't take it at > scrap cost (25 cents a pound?) and some will simply be given away with > the request that you make a donation of whatever you can. There are > tons and TONS of perfectly-intact but old machines that need a home! > I've taken home nearly fifty old Macs but I can't store any more. > There's PC hardware too, and printers, monitors, keyboards, mice, hard > drives, networking gear, software, manuals, peripherals, other internal > and external parts, enough SCSI cables to circle the Earth, etc. > > Please forward this to anyone within driving distance that you can > think might be interested. Parents, please ask your schools if they > need bulk quantities of stuff; we can most likely deliver locally, if > needed. Any other institutions or organizations (churches, charities, > etc.) you can think of that might be interested in loading up in bulk, > please tell them to contact us -- they can email Tim Cary > or me. > > More general info about WinCycle here: http://www.wincycle.org but the > price list is basically null and void at this point because of our > desperate situation. If you need further info than what's on the > website, please email mbates@whoopis.com -- do NOT reply to the list, I > won't get your message. > > Thanks! > > -- MB --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 30 12:57:17 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Information Needee In-Reply-To: <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> References: <41322B22.15758.290FF01@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040830133604.03b76460@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: > > About the best I could do is to snail-mail the ROM to > > you. -or- I'll be in San Diego tomorrow - Monday. > >That's a very generous offer, but there are two problems ... first I'm >presently in San Bernardino :( and won't be back in San Diego until Sunday, >and only Sunday at that. > >The bigger problem, though, is actually getting the capsule out to read it. >I opened up my HHC-4 and dug out the NYL capsules, which I hadn't examined >too closely before. They *seem* to be regular 24-pin EPROMs (with an NYL >sticker conveniently covering the UV window; they're 4K TMS 2532s, for those >interested). Hrm... that's a different chip than what I have for them - Motorola MCM 68764C and MCM 68766C -- are they pin-compatible to TMS2532s? They're 8Kx8, IIRC. What I *Do* have is the gizmothingy converter that plugs into a standard eprom programmer to program these things. I reprogrammed a couple for use on my old Tandy CoCo1 for extended basic... (just to see if it would work ;-) ) I have 2 programmers that can read/write these - one on my CoCo (read: *way* down deep in the pile... would take lots of digging to get at) and my Xeltek Superpro/L, which needs DOS and a parallel port (both of which I'm currently experimenting with under VirtualPC 2004 on my Shuttle machine at work). I should be ready by next week to do eprom programming, if not sooner. [[ I was having a problem with VirtualPC - 2 different speeds of RAM in my computer. Win2K was ultra-stable as usual, but amazingly, compiling things under Linux under VirtualPC was segfaulting... Odd. ]] I've never programmed one of these with my SuperPro before, but I have... um... 20 *pounds* or so of these EPROMs, so I have more than a few test subjects I can sacrifice to the gods... ;-) I can let the list know when I'm ready -- I've finally dug out the chips (and will be getting ready to mail a few who've asked me before for them, as they work on some flavor of DEC hardware as well) >The problem is not the chip, which seems to be a regular old >ROM. The problem is that the DIP legs are wrapped *around* the capsule >carrier, and digging the DIP out is probably going to damage the chip. If you're careful, it can be done. I've done it to put one in my Tandy CoCo1 for extended basic. >Is the BASIC ROM similarly "wrapped" on yours? If it is, perhaps there's >another way of doing this -- some way of reading out the contents of the ROM >using the HHC itself. Without the Forth or Basic (which hopefully would support PEEK or some other direct memory access) I'm not sure how you could, short of writing a ML program, burning it to a ROM and inserting it... >All this to say I would be *very* antsy about damaging a *very* rare ROM >with my relatively novice EE skills, despite the fact I want it *very* much! Want a few extra chips to fiddle with? ;-P Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Aug 30 08:32:26 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: MicroVAX3100 boot disk limited to 1GB - which ones? Message-ID: <040830093226.1155@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have a 3100-40 which has a 4Gb drive as a boot drive. The model 40 is SUPPOSED to be the same as the 30, but different case, expansion, etc. The model 30 memory certainly works in the 40. I seem to recall it is more an issue of age of firmware. I just asked a computer parts place I do business with about my model 30 and they said a 4Gb drive is the biggest that will work in it. Didn't try it though, just went to the model 40 (needed the space for more drives). Joe Heck From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Aug 30 13:36:52 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Rescue DEC gear? In-Reply-To: <200408300947.08845.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040830133611.024d2b18@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Lyle, Any chance you could rescue the Emulex UC08 for me? --tnx --tom At 09:47 AM 8/30/2004 -0700, you wrote: >A San Francisco Bay Area scrapper has the following DEC gear about to be >scrapped. I've looked at it - and most of it is very clean. > >I'll reply with his name and email address if you let me know you are >interested. > >I have no business interest in this transaction. > >Dec 5500 system >--------------------- >Ra90 drive missing >H7142 power supply >TK70 drive >H7868-A REV E03 POWER SUPPLY >M9404-PA >KDA 50/M7165-00 >KDA 50/M7164-00 >TQK70/M7559-00 >CXY08-M/M3119-YA >DELQA-SA/M7516-PA >KS220-AA/M7639-AP >M7639-AF >M7637 >KN220/M7638 >H7868-A DO1 > >DEC 9644 >------------- >Ra90 drive missing >H7142 POWER SUPPLY >H7868-A >M9060-YA >KDA 50/M7165-00 >KDA 50/M7164-00 >CXY08-M/M3119-YA >M9405-PA >H7868-A > >Vax 3600 >-------------- >RA82 >H7660C >TK70 >H7868-A Rev c >KDA50/M7164-00 >KDA50/M7165-00 >EMULEX UC08 ASSY NO. UC0810201-04 REVR >CXY08-M/M3119-YA REV D03 >TQK70/M77559-00 >DELQA-SA/M7516-PA >MS650-AA/M7621-A >MS650-AA/M7621-A >MS650-AA/M7621-A >MS650-AA/M7620-AA >H7868-A REV C > > >4-RA92 >2-RA90 > >DEC 5500 220-QH-D9 BA400, KN220 >------------------------------------------------- >NO DRIVES >KDA50/M7165-00 >KDA50/M7164-00 >MS220-BA/M7639 REV A2 >KN220/M7637 F4 >KN220/M7638 F4 >H7874-00 > >VAX 4000/500 >------------------ >KA670-AA REV C3 >MS670 REV A >ACTUAL BOARDS UNDER ABOVE MARKED PANELS: >L4002 BA >L4004 CT >L4004 CP >H7874-00 B03 > > >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 A-LA , BA42A, RZ55/RX23 >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12N-B-XA, BA42A, RZ56 >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 >Dec Storage Exp. Model RZ5X-MT, BA42A, NO DRIVES >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 B-HA, RZ56/TZ30 >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12 C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12N-XA,BA42A, ? >Dec Storage Exp. Model SZ12C-CA, BA42A, RZ57/RZ57 >TK50Z-GA >RZ55-FA > >VAXSTATION 3100 M76 MODEL VS43A-BD >VAXSTATION 3100 M76 MODEL VS43A-CZ >VAXSTATION 3100 M76 MODELVS43A-BD >VAXSTATION 3100 M38 MODEL WS42A-DA >VAXSTATION 3100 M38 MODEL WS42A-DA >VAXSTATION 4000 60 MODEL VS46K-AB CPU KA46,ZZF HF00005B >VAXSTATION 4000 60 MODEL VS46K-AD CPU KA46, ZZF 00005B, >CD-ROM INSTALLED > >VAX 4000-200 RACKMOUNT 660QK-A9, BA400 CPU MOD KA660 >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >DRV1W-SA/M7651-PA >KWV11-SA/M4002-PA P/N 30-18690-01(ML01338 BARCODE) >KW11-SA/M4002-PA B1 WITH COAX CONNECTOR >CXY08-M/M3119-YA REV D09 >DELQA-SA/M7516-PA C03 (NO FUSE INTALLED MISSING FUSE CAP) >CLEARPOINT CPCB-0053 REV D DCME-M30 >CLEARPOINT CPCB-0053 REV D DCME-M30 >PANEL SAYS MS650-BA/M7622-A A01 >PANEL SAYS KA650/M7626-AA C03 >UNDERNEATH ABOVE PANELS: >M7626-AA C05 >715AA >H7874-00 B03 POWER SUPPLY >TK70 >RF22 70-25972-01 A01 >RF73-EA A01, 70-28814-01 B03,(54-19119-01 A09) > > >OTHER ITEMS >RRD40 EXTERNAL CDROM >MODEL SC008-AB A 70-18771 REV A >MODEL SC008-AB B >VSXXX AB DIGIPAD WITH PUCK > >DEC 3000 -500HY7883-YA REV C06 NO DRIVES >MODEL PE50A-A9 > CPU KN15 >DRIVE R226E > >DEC 3000 -? NO LABLE LOOKS NJUST LIKE OTHER DEC 3000 >1-DAT DRIVE >CD-ROM >RZ26-E >TWO OTHER UNKNOWN 3 ?? ??? DRIVES > >Lyle >-- >Lyle Bickley >Bickley Consulting West Inc. >http://bickleywest.com >"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 30 13:48:43 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: New toys: 1944 IBM !!! Warning OT In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <375A4FCE-FAB5-11D8-AAFC-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 30, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Joe R. wrote: > A 1944 made IBM (wait for it!) Carbine! > Yeap, a gun! International Bullet Machines ??? From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Aug 30 14:04:28 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: NH/VT area goodies... References: <010701c48eb7$77115340$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Oooh! I'll take one of those, one of those, one of those... Really, is there any way anyone would want to ship this stuff? I'd take a load of stuff if I can get it shipped bulk and priced out at bulk cost. Some Apple II monitors, a few oddball quadras/centrisi, and, of course, anything on my wish list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: NH/VT area goodies... > I'm posting on behalf of Marion.... > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > CALLING NH/VT COLLECTORS: > > > > There's a nonprofit organization called WinCycle in Windsor, Vermont > > that receives all of a local university's unwanted computer equipment, > > which they then fix up and sell or donate to people and schools who > > can't afford new machines. I've been volunteering there weekly for a > > few months and it's really quite an operation. > > > > This has been a rough year -- burglaries, management upheavals, rising > > costs -- and to top it off, they just found out that they have to > > vacate their corner of the warehouse by the end of September, because > > the warehouse owner found a tenant who wants the entire building, and > > the rental agreement is only month-to-month. We've got to start moving > > stuff out of there and into another building just down the street, > > pronto, and the new building is less than half the space we have now. > > > > To get an idea of what we're dealing with, take a look at this: > > http://www.wincycle.org/images/wc-panorama.jpg > > > > Anything that isn't considered saleable (i.e., new enough to surf the > > web and run MS Office) will be scrapped if someone doesn't take it at > > scrap cost (25 cents a pound?) and some will simply be given away with > > the request that you make a donation of whatever you can. There are > > tons and TONS of perfectly-intact but old machines that need a home! > > I've taken home nearly fifty old Macs but I can't store any more. > > There's PC hardware too, and printers, monitors, keyboards, mice, hard > > drives, networking gear, software, manuals, peripherals, other internal > > and external parts, enough SCSI cables to circle the Earth, etc. > > > > Please forward this to anyone within driving distance that you can > > think might be interested. Parents, please ask your schools if they > > need bulk quantities of stuff; we can most likely deliver locally, if > > needed. Any other institutions or organizations (churches, charities, > > etc.) you can think of that might be interested in loading up in bulk, > > please tell them to contact us -- they can email Tim Cary > > or me. > > > > More general info about WinCycle here: http://www.wincycle.org but the > > price list is basically null and void at this point because of our > > desperate situation. If you need further info than what's on the > > website, please email mbates@whoopis.com -- do NOT reply to the list, I > > won't get your message. > > > > Thanks! > > > > -- MB > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 30 14:20:57 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: MicroVAX3100 boot disk limited to 1GB - which ones? In-Reply-To: <040830093226.1155@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <007f01c48ec6$7ae6ee80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I have a 3100-40 which has a 4Gb drive as a boot drive. The > model 40 is > SUPPOSED to be the same as the 30, but different case, expansion, etc. > The model 30 memory certainly works in the 40. I seem to recall it is > more an issue of age of firmware. I just asked a computer parts place > I do business with about my model 30 and they said a 4Gb drive is the > biggest that will work in it. Didn't try it though, just went to the > model 40 (needed the space for more drives). The limitation applies to: - all VAXstation 3100 machines - to the MicroVAX 3100 Models 10 and 20 and - to the MicroVAX 3100 Models 10e and 20e *if* the ROMS are older than April 1992 (I forget the version number ...) So the MicroVAX 3100 Model 30 and Model 40 are not subject to this limitation. Note that the MicroVAX 3100-30/40 are nothing at all to do with the VAXstation 3100-30/40 (different processors, different ROMs, different vintage entirely). I don't know of any firmware restrictions other than the 1(.073)GB limit in the VS3100-30/40,UV3100-10/20[e]. The only reason I can think of for a 4GB limit being quoted is that at the time that the MicroVAX 3100-30/40 were released the RZ29 (4GB drivce) was the largest supplied by DEC. So it's possible that they never qualified anything else (and the largest I know of DEC releasing was the 9GB RZ1D or some such). Another reason might be that older versions of OpenVMS were more fussy about the drives that they would accept. Later versions ("later" here meaning from sometime in the mid 1990s) were more tolearant (of the sh*tty SCSI support that drives of that era gave :-)). The main things to watch out for are cooling - but I would expect that today's drives (5400 and 7200 ones at least) run cool enough for those cases. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 30 14:26:53 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: New toys: 1944 IBM !!! Warning OT In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040830122512.D12908@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Joe R. wrote: > eye on for quite a while. A 1944 made IBM (wait for it!) Carbine! > Yeap, a gun! A US model M1 .30 caliber carbine. This was made at IBM's #4 > plant in Poughkeepsie, New York. According to the SN it was made between > January and March of 1944 and this one appears to be 99% original. The only > thing that appears to be non-original is the butt plate. All the other > parts are the right style and markings for the period/manufacturer. This > one even has orignal IBM manufacturered barrel and reciever (many were made > under sub-contract by Auto Ordanance and are of inferior quality). The > stock and handguard are interesting, they're marked BR-B (made for IBM by > Milton Bradley!!!). Whether computer hardware or guns, if you ever want to shoot yourself in the foot, IBM is there for you. "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 14:47:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 In-Reply-To: <000801c48d5a$a6090ac0$772b52a6@default> Message-ID: Let the frenzy commence! On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Sharon Hamrick wrote: > Hello, > > Found your site searching on Yahoo for IBM 5110 or 5120. > > We have some equipment for sale maybe you might be interested in: > > 1 5120, IBM model 5110/3, 8" floppy drive, BASIC > > 1 5120 IBM model 5110/?, 8" floppy, BASIC/APL > > 1 5110 IBM model 5110A, internal tape drive, BASIC/APL > > 1 5114 IBM disk drive, 2 8" floppy drives > > 2 5103 printers > > We are an accounting firm who used these computers a very long time ago. We are moving this month, these have been in our office in storage and I would like to sell these if possible. > > If you are interested and would like any more detail, please contact us and I will try to provide any information needed. Some of this equipment worked when we quit using this but I do not know the condition since it has not been in use in many years. > > Thank you, > Sharon Hamrick > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 14:49:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks In-Reply-To: <200408290625.CAA06564@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Dan Lanciani wrote: > I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a 1797-style > controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all of my old disks > with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector (not bad for media that > is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to have run through *drives* at > an alarming rate, though I hope that the cleaning disks I have on order will > restore some of them. Is anyone interested in: > > -Technical details (the method should work for many non-standard FM formats)? Hi Dan. By all means, please post some technical details. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 30 15:00:53 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408301300.53976.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I'll second that. Lyle On Monday 30 August 2004 12:49, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Dan Lanciani wrote: > > I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a > > 1797-style controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all > > of my old disks with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector > > (not bad for media that is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to > > have run through *drives* at an alarming rate, though I hope that the > > cleaning disks I have on order will restore some of them. Is anyone > > interested in: > > > > -Technical details (the method should work for many non-standard FM > > formats)? > > Hi Dan. > > By all means, please post some technical details. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Aug 30 15:30:16 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: MicroVAX3100 boot disk limited to 1GB - which ones? In-Reply-To: <007f01c48ec6$7ae6ee80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > The only reason I can think of for a 4GB limit being quoted > is that at the time that the MicroVAX 3100-30/40 were > released the RZ29 (4GB drivce) was the largest supplied > by DEC. So it's possible that they never qualified anything > else (and the largest I know of DEC releasing was the 9GB > RZ1D or some such). Correct, I run them with various 9GB drives, and have no problems with them. Of course, the *operating system* may also impose disk size limits, and/or partition limits. Worst case, one will have to partition a large drive into several smaller ones to make full use of that drive. Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Aug 30 15:38:24 2004 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've just picked up a Liberty Electronics BT1430A0 CRT terminal. RS232 > interface (two ports), 12" CRT with amber phosphor, three keyboards (one > working, two for spares) and very minor screen burn. From what I can see in > the ROM dumps, there's a self-test screen and there appears to be a > full-screen Setup option, in addition to the setup option that only uses row > 25 (%DEITY knows how to access it though). Took a while to find the Magic > Incantation (tm) to make it store the current setup - you press F3 to enter > setup, navigate with the cursor keys, SPACE changes the value of the > currently selected option, then Ctrl-F3 saves the settings and F3 closes the > Setup tool. FWICT, the actual "model name" for the '1430 was "Freedom ONE > Plus" (found that in the ROM dump). Does anyone want to stick the ROMs on > their site for the sake of archiving them? > Now if only I could find a way to reduce the amount of 50Hz EMI the terminal > spews out. My Mitsubishi CRT monitor's picture gains a rolling black bar > whenever the terminal is switched on - even though it's a good 6" away. Set > the refresh rate to 75Hz (from 60Hz) and the picture starts shimmering. > Anyone got some spare mumetal? :) > I have the manual for the Liberty Electronics Freedom One Plus CRT terminal, albeit for a slightly different model # of terminal: BT1431A0). The manual mentions a couple of keyboard options, one uses an explicit "SETUP" key to get into setup and one uses the SCROLL-LOCK key to get into setup, the manual doesn't mention use of F3 to get into setup (?). Getting into full-screen setup should be accomplished with Shift-, where is whichever setup-entry-option you have. The behaviour is somewhat unusual in that it doesn't display the full-screen setup until you *release* the shift key and may be why you haven't discovered it. Once you get into full-screen setup: - Shift-F1 goes into a self-test and displays the firmware version (Version 02.6, Keyboard 04.3, Copyright 1986 on mine) - Shift-F3 presents some other self-test screens - Exiting self-test modes is accomplished with *right*Shift-Break ("soft reset") Ctl- saves setup, as you discovered. Ctl-Shift- restores default config. There are several emulation modes (some Wyse, Televideo and ADDS models and ADM-31). I'm using the terminal as a console for a minicomputer and something I have found useful is that the printer/aux port can be set into 'bi-directional' mode, making it possible to connect another computer to the second port for transparent downloading and uploading between the two computers without having to switch cables or requiring a switch box. If there is some particular info you need from the manual let me know. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Aug 30 15:40:33 2004 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <413390C1.5BB0905E@cs.ubc.ca> Speaking of various keyboards: some time ago I received a bare (no machine, no case, no ID) keyboard utilising magnetically-activated reed relays for the key contacts. Reed relays were commonly used for calculator keyboards in the late-60s/early 70s and it probably dates from this era, but this is the only occasion I have seen reed relays used in an alphabetic keyboard. I've been mildly curious as to what machine/terminal it was used in. The keycaps are glossy white with black characters, 4 cursor keys in a column on the left and a TAB next to the CR (on the right). (The sealed reed relays would have been very effective against coffee-spilling. The keys have a nice smooth travel to them, too bad it's not 'in' something.) From swebb at cix.co.uk Mon Aug 30 16:07:00 2004 From: swebb at cix.co.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Museum of Computing Launch Party Message-ID: The Museum of Computing is holding a launch party for its latest exhibition, 'Computers on the Move' the history of mobile computing. If anybody would like to join us you would be very welcome. Monday 13th September, 18:00-20:30 The Museum of Computing The University of Bath in Swindon Oakfield Campus Marlowe Ave Swindon SN3 3JR Simon Webb Curator, Museum of Computing www.museum-of-computing.org.uk Tel: 07939 582544 From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 30 16:15:33 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <413390C1.5BB0905E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <16691.39157.158654.116525@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brent" == Brent Hilpert writes: Brent> Speaking of various keyboards: some time ago I received a bare Brent> (no machine, no case, no ID) keyboard utilising Brent> magnetically-activated reed relays for the key contacts. Reed Brent> relays were commonly used for calculator keyboards in the Brent> late-60s/early 70s and it probably dates from this era, but Brent> this is the only occasion I have seen reed relays used in an Brent> alphabetic keyboard. PLATO 3 used reed switches, and I believe PLATO IV did likewise. Liquid proofing is clearly a good reason: those systems were intended for use by students (of all ages) and were certainly likely to have beverages spilled on them. Because of how they were built, a good scrub under hot water would fix them right up. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 17:15:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040830085127.032bee60@192.168.0.1> from "Ed Kelleher" at Aug 30, 4 09:03:17 am Message-ID: > But something was nagging at me and I went and looked at the prints. > > The DEC DLV11-J, a 4 port unbuffered SLU had a clock I/O pin on it's Berg > connector. > It could output the 16x internal baud clock on that pin to drive a terminal, > or accept a 16x external clock from a terminal, for each UART. That pin was commonly used with a DEC current loop converter module, the number of which I forget (DLV11-K ???). That box plugged into the DLV11-J at one side and had an 8 pin Mate-n-lock on the other to connect to a standard DEC current loop cable. It also included a 110 baud (1760Hz) generator, since the DLV11 couldn't do 110 baud as standard and the most common reason for wanting a current loop interface was to connect to an ASR33. -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 30 18:01:12 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040830085127.032bee60@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <20040830230112.GA28403@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 11:15:47PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > The DEC DLV11-J, a 4 port unbuffered SLU had a clock I/O pin on it's Berg > > connector. > > That pin was commonly used with a DEC current loop converter module, the > number of which I forget (DLV11-K ???). That box plugged into the DLV11-J > at one side and had an 8 pin Mate-n-lock on the other to connect to a > standard DEC current loop cable. It also included a 110 baud (1760Hz) > generator, since the DLV11 couldn't do 110 baud as standard and the most > common reason for wanting a current loop interface was to connect to an > ASR33. Hmm... I might have one of those that I picked up at Dayton a few years back. Didn't know it had a special feature for the DLV11-J. I thought it was just a dumb level converter (obviously it should work with any device that can do 110 bps by itself). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Aug-2004 22:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77.3 F (-60.7 C) Windchill -119.3 F (-84.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.7 kts Grid 033 Barometer 666.7 mb (11131. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 30 18:08:33 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7e82cbe64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > The manual mentions a couple of keyboard options, one uses an explicit > "SETUP" key to get into setup and one uses the SCROLL-LOCK key to get into > setup, the manual doesn't mention use of F3 to get into setup (?). The slot-in keyboard guide strip on my terminal has "SETUP" listed as F3 (i.e. "SETUP" printed above the F3 key). > Getting into full-screen setup should be accomplished with Shift-, > where is whichever setup-entry-option you have. The behaviour is > somewhat unusual in that it doesn't display the full-screen setup until you > *release* the shift key and may be why you haven't discovered it. Ah-HA! That did it. > Once you get into full-screen setup: > - Shift-F1 goes into a self-test and displays the firmware version > (Version 02.6, Keyboard 04.3, Copyright 1986 on mine) Version 02.1, Keyboard 02.3, Copyright 1986 Liberty Electronics USA, Inc. on mine. I did find the URL for what used to be Liberty's website. Unfortunately one of the "lets buy expired domains" search engine type cybersquatter things bought the domain, put up their search engine... and added a ROBOTS.TXT file to the server that blocked Wayback (web.archive.org). Wayback noticed the file... and promptly nuked all the old pre-cybersquat stuff as well. Another reason why I want the jackasses who do that sort of stuff to be removed from the genepool in the most painful and thorough way possible. > - Shift-F3 presents some other self-test screens > - Exiting self-test modes is accomplished with *right*Shift-Break ("soft > reset") Break being F5 on this terminal. > Ctl- saves setup, as you discovered. > Ctl-Shift- restores default config. Now that I didn't know - thanks. > There are several emulation modes (some Wyse, Televideo and ADDS models and > ADM-31). Mine has: DEC VT100 (ASCII) DEC VT100 (U.K.) DEC VT52 (ASCII) DEC VT52 (U.K.) DASHER 210 [Data General... Hmm...] DASHER 211 (7-bit) DASHER 211 (8-bit) DEC VT200 (7-bit) [the mode I usually use my terminal in] DEC VT200 (8-bit) Interesting that Data General made terminals. ISTR the city council had the libraries system redone in '94 or thereabouts - part of that included installing a few terminals in each library. All bolted down, tilt-stands locked, and all with Data General labels on the front. Most were amber-screen CRT, the rest were white-screen CRT. Nice little terminals. What I do remember was there being a power cut - the power came back on a few seconds later and the terminals rebooted... to a "*" prompt. I would like to know what system they were running the database on - I'm guessing one of the DG systems, but I've never seen the shell prompt on one of those things... > I'm using the terminal as a console for a minicomputer and something I > have found useful is that the printer/aux port can be set into > 'bi-directional' mode, making it possible to connect another computer to > the second port for transparent downloading and uploading between the two > computers without having to switch cables or requiring a switch box. Neat trick. I might build a second terminal cable then. > If there is some particular info you need from the manual let me know. I would like to know what triggers the "WAIT" LED on the keyboard and what "U.K." is supposed to signify in the VT52 and VT100 entries. I suspect the WAIT LED is triggered by DCD going inactive or something like that. Any chance you could scan the manual? Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... (A)bort (F)ail (C)reate a holographic image in plasma memory? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 30 18:45:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 Message-ID: <200408302345.QAA15306@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Sellam Of course, I'd love to have the 5110 but I have no idea how much to offer for such a machine. Dwight >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > >Let the frenzy commence! > >On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Sharon Hamrick wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Found your site searching on Yahoo for IBM 5110 or 5120. >> >> We have some equipment for sale maybe you might be interested in: >> >> 1 5120, IBM model 5110/3, 8" floppy drive, BASIC >> >> 1 5120 IBM model 5110/?, 8" floppy, BASIC/APL >> >> 1 5110 IBM model 5110A, internal tape drive, BASIC/APL >> >> 1 5114 IBM disk drive, 2 8" floppy drives >> >> 2 5103 printers >> >> We are an accounting firm who used these computers a very long time ago. We are moving this month, these have been in our office in storage and I would like to sell these if possible. >> >> If you are interested and would like any more detail, please contact us and I will try to provide any information needed. Some of this equipment worked when we quit using this but I do not know the condition since it has not been in use in many years. >> >> Thank you, >> Sharon Hamrick >> > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 30 19:09:15 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040831000915.15788.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> I'd be interested in one of these, particularly the 5110A. Any idea what they would take for one? --Bill --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Let the frenzy commence! > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Sharon Hamrick wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Found your site searching on Yahoo for IBM 5110 or > 5120. > > > > We have some equipment for sale maybe you might be > interested in: > > > > 1 5120, IBM model 5110/3, 8" floppy drive, BASIC > > > > 1 5120 IBM model 5110/?, 8" floppy, BASIC/APL > > > > 1 5110 IBM model 5110A, internal tape drive, > BASIC/APL > > > > 1 5114 IBM disk drive, 2 8" floppy drives > > > > 2 5103 printers > > > > We are an accounting firm who used these computers > a very long time ago. We are moving this month, > these have been in our office in storage and I would > like to sell these if possible. > > > > If you are interested and would like any more > detail, please contact us and I will try to provide > any information needed. Some of this equipment > worked when we quit using this but I do not know the > condition since it has not been in use in many > years. > > > > Thank you, > > Sharon Hamrick > > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || > Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 19:14:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: <7e82cbe64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I did find the URL for what used to be Liberty's website. Unfortunately one > of the "lets buy expired domains" search engine type cybersquatter things > bought the domain, put up their search engine... and added a ROBOTS.TXT file > to the server that blocked Wayback (web.archive.org). Wayback noticed the > file... and promptly nuked all the old pre-cybersquat stuff as well. > Another reason why I want the jackasses who do that sort of stuff to be > removed from the genepool in the most painful and thorough way possible. I share the sentiment but why the hell did archive.org nuke the previous web pages? That makes *no* sense. You might want to contact them and bring it to their attention. It might've been a glitch. If it's an actual practice then it needs to be adjusted. > I would like to know what triggers the "WAIT" LED on the keyboard and what > "U.K." is supposed to signify in the VT52 and VT100 entries. It probably just replaces the $ character with the UKP sign, among other minor adjustments (i.e. UK ASCII). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 19:15:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 In-Reply-To: <200408302345.QAA15306@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Of course, I'd love to have the 5110 but I have no idea > how much to offer for such a machine. Offer what you think it's worth, or what it's worth to you of course ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Aug 30 19:18:31 2004 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Identify an SMD component In-Reply-To: <709842e64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <41324D06.908@nktelco.net> <709842e64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <4133C3D7.2050406@nktelco.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: >Yee-upp - it's called the SMD Codebook: > > > I had seen this, and although it did include the 5A part, there was no mention of a K lying on it's back. I was hoping somebody would say the reclining K was used by "Diodes-Are-Us" and I could find a data sheet. I probed the chip on the good board and it looks like pin 1 is connect to SIMM pin 72 through a 1k resistor and pin 3 is connected to SIMM pin 42. Pin 2 seems to be connected to nothing. If I probe across the chip from pin 1 to 3 I see a wierd negative resistance one way and a positive resistance the other. There is probably a capacitor somewhere messing with the meter. I don't have any idea what the pinout is. I searched a bit, and pin 72 might be ground and pin 42 was either a data bit or a column address strobe. I might tack a 1N914 between pads 1 and 3 and see what happens. -chuck From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 19:15:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 In-Reply-To: <20040831000915.15788.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, William Maddox wrote: > I'd be interested in one of these, particularly > the 5110A. Any idea what they would take for one? A million dollars is a safe bet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 30 19:53:08 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:37 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk Message-ID: <206A1A54-FAE8-11D8-BF23-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 node "wire" out of just wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Aug 30 19:58:58 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Wayne Talbot wrote: > > > Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client > > > > Have you tried pegasus mail? > > Is it command line? > > So far I've searched far and wide and pursued half a dozen well-meaning > but erroneous suggestions for various packages and I just don't think such > an application exists. Sure it does, PC pine works fine, but you need an old copy, like vintage wine... Even known to work with Lan Manager with the right protocol stack shims... PCpine 3.96 is the latest that supports DOS but if you are running LAN manager (a memory hog) I would suggest 3.91 as it is somewhat smaller. ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/old/PC-PINE-3.91/pcpine_p.zip > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From gtoal at gtoal.com Mon Aug 30 20:43:14 2004 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: CBTREE source code needed Message-ID: <4133D7B2.mail49J11MHHW@gtoal.com> > This was a B+ tree package produced by Peacock Systems > (Walter Peacock) for MS-DOS (and written in C) in the late 80s > Some applications I wrote 15 years ago have > come back to haunt me and I no longer have the library source. > Any help out there? This rung a vague bell for me so I searched my entire disk and found this: pizzabox:/home/gtoal # find / -name '*[Cc][Bb][Tt][Rr][Ee][Ee]*' -print /backup/acorn-www/NFS/A440/Informat/cbtree,ddc /backup/acorn-www/NFS/A440/Informat/cbtree,ddc-spark.txt I used a package of this name back in the 80's and by sheer chance I happened to have a copy of it on a bunch of old Acorn Archimedes floppies which I read back in a year or two ago. I've unpacked the contents of the "Spark" format archive using nspark - so, come and get it :-) (the C files will be in the cbtree/C subdirectory) http://www.gtoal.com/acme/ Graham From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 20:33:53 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Wayne Talbot wrote: > > > > > Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client > > > > > > Have you tried pegasus mail? > > > > Is it command line? > > > > So far I've searched far and wide and pursued half a dozen well-meaning > > but erroneous suggestions for various packages and I just don't think such > > an application exists. > > > Sure it does, > PC pine works fine, No it doesn't: Command Line Arguments Pine ... < file Pine will startup in the composer with file read into the body of the message. Once the message is sent, the Pine session closes. -attach file Go directly into composer with given file attached. -attachlist file-list Go directly into composer with given files attached. This must be the last option on the command line. -attach_and_delete file Go directly into composer with given file attached, delete when finished. ... I don't want to go into the composer. I want it to just send the damn message I specify to the address I tell it to! > Even known to work with Lan Manager with the right protocol stack shims... Are earlier versions smaller than 1MB? That's how big the current version is. PINE has always been bloated, so I wouldn't expect an older version to a) have the functionality I seek and b) be able to fit in memory with the net drivers loaded and while another program is running (i.e. PINE is shelled out to). THIS PROGRAM DOES NOT EXIST! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 30 20:37:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: <4132B85C.2050907@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Try http://www.nettamer.net/ > > Nettamer, isn't quite command line, but it may work for you. It works Then it isn't quite what I'm looking for. I appreciate all the Google links but I already did that. The program I need doesn't exist. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Aug 30 21:21:23 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam, Your latest posts are quite adamant that it needs to be 100% command line. That I can provide....but, it is a Windows Console Application...are you truly runing on a DOS [e.g. DOS 6.2] box???? David >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 9:37 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client >>> >>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Chad Fernandez wrote: >>> >>> > Try http://www.nettamer.net/ >>> > >>> > Nettamer, isn't quite command line, but it may work for >>> you. It works >>> >>> Then it isn't quite what I'm looking for. >>> >>> I appreciate all the Google links but I already did that. >>> >>> The program I need doesn't exist. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Aug 30 21:13:13 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Wayne Talbot wrote: > > > > > > > Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client > > > > > > > > Have you tried pegasus mail? > > > > > > Is it command line? > > > > > > So far I've searched far and wide and pursued half a dozen well-meaning > > > but erroneous suggestions for various packages and I just don't think such > > > an application exists. > > > > > > Sure it does, > > PC pine works fine, > > > Even known to work with Lan Manager with the right protocol stack shims... > > Are earlier versions smaller than 1MB? That's how big the current version > is. PINE has always been bloated, so I wouldn't expect an older version > to a) have the functionality I seek and b) be able to fit in memory with > the net drivers loaded and while another program is running (i.e. PINE is > shelled out to). Sure its smaller than 1M since it will fit in 640K along with whatever parts of the LAN manager stack wont fit in high memory. As I recall its around 500K. I used it for many a year... I guess I didn't read all the intervening messages and it was not clear to me what you wanted Looks like what you are looking for is a DOS equivalent of the unix 'mail' program. If security is not a big issue and the attached DOS file is on a Samba server, you could just use one of the DOS REXEC clients to invoke the unix mail program and send the file... > > THIS PROGRAM DOES NOT EXIST! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 22:15:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <20040830230112.GA28403@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 30, 4 11:01:12 pm Message-ID: > > That pin was commonly used with a DEC current loop converter module, the > > number of which I forget (DLV11-K ???). That box plugged into the DLV11-J > > at one side and had an 8 pin Mate-n-lock on the other to connect to a > > standard DEC current loop cable. It also included a 110 baud (1760Hz) > > generator, since the DLV11 couldn't do 110 baud as standard and the most > > common reason for wanting a current loop interface was to connect to an > > ASR33. > > Hmm... I might have one of those that I picked up at Dayton a few years > back. Didn't know it had a special feature for the DLV11-J. I thought > it was just a dumb level converter (obviously it should work with any > device that can do 110 bps by itself). It _is_ a dumb level converter. It doesn't do any internal baud rate conversion. But it includes the 110 baud rate generator as well (which you can ignore if you're using it with a serial port that can do 110 baud itself. -tony From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Aug 30 23:18:28 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <16691.39157.158654.116525@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul Koning heeft op maandag, 30 aug 2004 om 23:15 (Europe/Zurich) het volgende geschreven: >>>>>> "Brent" == Brent Hilpert writes: > > Brent> Speaking of various keyboards: some time ago I received a bare > Brent> (no machine, no case, no ID) keyboard utilising > Brent> magnetically-activated reed relays for the key contacts. Reed > Brent> relays were commonly used for calculator keyboards in the > Brent> late-60s/early 70s and it probably dates from this era, but > Brent> this is the only occasion I have seen reed relays used in an > Brent> alphabetic keyboard. > Tektronix also used this. The Tek 4014 has such a keyboard. Jos From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Aug 30 23:20:57 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: References: <20040830230112.GA28403@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040831042057.GA22267@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 04:15:17AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > It _is_ a dumb level converter. It doesn't do any internal baud rate > conversion. But it includes the 110 baud rate generator as well (which > you can ignore if you're using it with a serial port that can do 110 > baud itself. Right... I didn't mean to imply that it buffered data or changed baud rate, just that it was more than a simple level shifter... there was something more to it (the baud-rate generator). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Aug-2004 04:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.0 F (-57.3 C) Windchill -111.2 F (-79.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.6 kts Grid 021 Barometer 667.5 mb (11103. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 31 00:23:29 2004 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41340B51.6090209@internet1.net> Sellem, I didn't just find that on Google, I uses to use Nettamer as my main email client. I was using a clone XT with a hard drive, but ended up running it on IBM PC with dual 360K floppies when the XT gave out. Later I was using it on various 286 and 386's, up until about 97. It was great fun, functional, and cheap! I was connecting to the internet with hardware that most people thought was trash. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > >>Try http://www.nettamer.net/ >> >>Nettamer, isn't quite command line, but it may work for you. It works > > > Then it isn't quite what I'm looking for. > > I appreciate all the Google links but I already did that. > > The program I need doesn't exist. > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 31 01:32:28 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: WORST keyboards ever" (Aug 30, 23:15) References: Message-ID: <10408310732.ZM9313@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 30 2004, 23:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > But something was nagging at me and I went and looked at the prints. > > > > The DEC DLV11-J, a 4 port unbuffered SLU had a clock I/O pin on it's Berg > > connector. > > It could output the 16x internal baud clock on that pin to drive a terminal, > > or accept a 16x external clock from a terminal, for each UART. > > That pin was commonly used with a DEC current loop converter module, the > number of which I forget (DLV11-K ???). That box plugged into the DLV11-J > at one side and had an 8 pin Mate-n-lock on the other to connect to a > standard DEC current loop cable. It also included a 110 baud (1760Hz) > generator, since the DLV11 couldn't do 110 baud as standard and the most > common reason for wanting a current loop interface was to connect to an > ASR33. Yes, it's a DLV11-K, and is also why the DLV11-J has 12V supplied on one of the connector pins. I've got one here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 31 01:42:13 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client" (Aug 30, 18:33) References: Message-ID: <10408310742.ZM9319@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 30 2004, 18:33, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > PC pine works fine, > > No it doesn't: > > Command Line Arguments > > Pine > > ... > > < file > Pine will startup in the composer with file read into the body of the > message. Once the message is sent, the Pine session closes. > I don't want to go into the composer. I want it to just send the damn > message I specify to the address I tell it to! Can't you just wrap the invocation of pine and the key sequence to send the message in a 2- or 3-line DOS batch file? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 31 01:46:41 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson "Phone Talk / Apple Talk" (Aug 30, 17:53) References: <206A1A54-FAE8-11D8-BF23-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <10408310746.ZM9326@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 30 2004, 17:53, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 node > "wire" out of just > wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? I've never had a real Farallon PhoneTalk unit so I don't know, but I suspect it has some real electronics inside, or a hybrid transformer like LocalTalk boxes. However, if you're starting from scratch, you might look at the CapNet subsitute. The first link Google finds for "capnet localtalk" will find a copy of the document I originally saw several years ago, at http://www.jagshouse.com/localtalk.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 31 02:44:08 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: <10408310746.ZM9326@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <206A1A54-FAE8-11D8-BF23-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10408310746.ZM9326@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <8AB107C6-FB21-11D8-9E8F-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Thanks... I am currently using an Imagewriter printer cable to hook up one device, and that seems to work ok, and there is no electronics there.. Perhaps the transformers are for some safety - decoupling purpose? On Aug 30, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 30 2004, 17:53, Ron Hudson wrote: >> >> Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 > node >> "wire" out of just >> wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? > > I've never had a real Farallon PhoneTalk unit so I don't know, but I > suspect it has some real electronics inside, or a hybrid transformer > like LocalTalk boxes. However, if you're starting from scratch, you > might look at the CapNet subsitute. The first link Google finds for > "capnet localtalk" will find a copy of the document I originally saw > several years ago, at http://www.jagshouse.com/localtalk.html > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 31 03:05:43 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Internet Archive (Wayback) and robots.txt (was: Re: Liberty Freedom One Plus) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41b0fce64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I share the sentiment but why the hell did archive.org nuke the previous > web pages? That makes *no* sense. You might want to contact them and > bring it to their attention. It might've been a glitch. If it's an > actual practice then it needs to be adjusted. Okay then. Go to and pick the October 1st, 2000 archive entry. You'll get a "This site has moved to www.libertyus.com" page. Now feed the URL "www.libertyus.com" to Wayback (which should dump you at ". Not the message - "Access to this site has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt." Now open the ROBOTS.TXT Wayback has and and compare them... The juicy bit is at ... Looks like they've got Wayback rigged to destroy any historical data if the current site owner decides to put up a robots.txt file that blocks IA/Wayback. I consider this to be severely bugged, but %DEITY knows if they do. In any case, Liberty Electronics seem to be no more and no-one seems to have taken a mirror of their website either. And manuals for the terminals seem to be like hen's teeth :-/ I've contacted the Internet Archive regarding this - %DEITY knows if I'll get a reply. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Can I stop typing in taglines now please? From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 31 05:47:01 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > No it doesn't: > > Command Line Arguments > > Pine Aha. Then try using the correct terminology. You need a DOS-based SMTP mailer, not a "command-line email client". There are zillions of SMTP mailers, I can send you a copy of the one I wrote many moons ago, which I still use for status reporting off some DOS boxes doing process control. Basically, like most other DOS network programs, it uses a network stack (MSNET, Trumpet, CMU, PC/TCP or NCSA) to talk to the network, so you need to have that installed. --f From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Tue Aug 31 06:57:06 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: FA: (ebay) DEC Rainbow 100, docs/sw, LA50, LA75 Message-ID: <20040831115706.7815.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=dcymbal _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From jwest at imail.kwcorp.com Tue Aug 31 07:10:37 2004 From: jwest at imail.kwcorp.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) Message-ID: <008801c48f53$86bce380$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I was contacted by a gentleman in the UK who has two PDP-11/53 systems that control a "printing press management information system". They are currently not working. He is looking for someone to repair, and possibly support them for a couple of years. If anyone is interested, contact me off-list. Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 31 08:15:16 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) References: <008801c48f53$86bce380$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <00e501c48f5c$8ecd5100$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Why doesn't some big company in St. Louis ask me to maintain their HP1000 systems. I'd quit one of my day jobs in a heartbeat! *sigh* Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 08:44:47 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) References: <008801c48f53$86bce380$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <00e501c48f5c$8ecd5100$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <008201c48f60$ae40ef20$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) > Why doesn't some big company in St. Louis ask me to maintain their HP1000 > systems. I'd quit one of my day jobs in a heartbeat! *sigh* > > Jay > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Call them all up and ask them if they need a consultant. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 31 08:28:05 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) References: <008801c48f53$86bce380$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00e501c48f5c$8ecd5100$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <008201c48f60$ae40ef20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <010e01c48f5e$58f0f260$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Call them all up and ask them if they need a consultant. Well, unfortunately most all the HP1000's in St. Louis are in the missle systems division of Boeing, formerly McDonnell Douglas. They won't even admit what computers they have, security & stuff :\ Guess I need to find the "right guy" in the know there. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 31 08:51:58 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) In-Reply-To: <008201c48f60$ae40ef20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Why doesn't some big company in St. Louis ask me to maintain their HP1000 > > systems. I'd quit one of my day jobs in a heartbeat! *sigh* > > > Call them all up and ask them if they need a consultant. Actually, this procedure works pretty well. I have done this with a number of companies I either knew or expected to have certain systems in production use, and out of the 9 I contacted, 7 did sign up for service, and were *relieved* to find some backup. Usually, such companies rely solely on their sys admin to not die or quit... And: there's decent money to be made in these jobs, too. --f From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 31 08:53:02 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) In-Reply-To: <00e501c48f5c$8ecd5100$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <000201c48f61$ed5002e0$1e01010a@Beovax.Local> Heh, That's one of the reasons why I like this job - a current project is reading some on-topic DEC MO disks and getting the data off and onto a CD....this involves VMS and Pathworks work with the possibility of having to go get their VAX 4000-505a (the one that wrote the disks in the first place) if I run into problems :) *one* of your day jobs? Cheers a > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 31 August 2004 14:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) > > > Why doesn't some big company in St. Louis ask me to maintain > their HP1000 systems. I'd quit one of my day jobs in a > heartbeat! *sigh* > > Jay > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 09:07:22 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) References: Message-ID: <009301c48f63$d5c7c570$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > Why doesn't some big company in St. Louis ask me to maintain their HP1000 > > > systems. I'd quit one of my day jobs in a heartbeat! *sigh* > > > > > Call them all up and ask them if they need a consultant. > > Actually, this procedure works pretty well. I have done this with a > number of companies I either knew or expected to have certain systems > in production use, and out of the 9 I contacted, 7 did sign up for > service, and were *relieved* to find some backup. Usually, such > companies rely solely on their sys admin to not die or quit... > > And: there's decent money to be made in these jobs, too. > > --f > > There is always decent money to be made in servicing equipment (or software) that the vast majority of people don't understand because the equipment is obsolete. The problem is that its a short term money maker and not a long term career since that equipment will get junked sooner or later for something new. If you can get experience with different platforms at the end of their lifespan I guess you could keep on making some decent consulting money. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 31 09:56:15 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Classic computer job/work offer (UK) In-Reply-To: <009301c48f63$d5c7c570$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > And: there's decent money to be made in these jobs, too. > > There is always decent money to be made in servicing equipment (or software) > that the vast majority of people don't understand because the equipment is > obsolete. The problem is that its a short term money maker and not a long > term career since that equipment will get junked sooner or later for > something new. If you can get experience with different platforms at the end > of their lifespan I guess you could keep on making some decent consulting > money. This goes for any work in a niche market. The good news is, that once you "get in" on a retro-based support job, and do it well, chances are above average they will also grant you more of the regular support work available, assuming "if he can do the VAX this well, he probably will do a decent job on our other stuff too". And, quite often, this is not a bad assumption. The difference between a consultant with a retro background and one without is, that the retro person usually has actual hands-on experience with many aspects of what lies at the base of modern IT issues. Most newly-grown consultants have their base knowledge from books and/or hear-say from collegues and teachers, but that's it. They have never seen an Ethernet bridge, so would not know how to spot collision-domain problems, for example. The retro-guy *spots* the problems, based on experience and recognition of symptoms, where the new-guy has to perform several rounds of analysis to figure it out. Or not. In my personal experience, I have gotten "in to" companies based on reputation (muhahaha !) and to help out with a retro system issue, and then gradually more and more of their total IT "business". Since I am far from cheap, and customers still attack me with requests, I must therefore assume they are pleased with my work, since they kicked out others (from the new-guy arena) in favor of moi... Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 31 10:12:35 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: <20040830024207.2107.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4134B183.12390.71564978@localhost> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119316334&rd=1 No Comment. H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cb at mythtech.net Tue Aug 31 10:17:26 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk Message-ID: >Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 node >"wire" out of just >wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? There is some small degree of electronics. I know there are plans online for building one from scratch, but you can probably find some phonenet connectors for dirt cheap (or even free... I had a case load and would have happily given you some, but I gave the entire case to Tom Owad on this list last year... you can ask him if there are some left he isn't using). -chris From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 31 09:55:54 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness References: <4134B183.12390.71564978@localhost> Message-ID: <01ab01c48f6a$9dced620$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I saw an RX01 listed for 500... made me think I should list a couple of mine! Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: eBay Madness > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119316334&rd=1 > > No Comment. > H. > -- > VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Aug 31 10:21:17 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, chris wrote: > >Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 node > >"wire" out of just > >wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? > > There is some small degree of electronics. One of my customers has a box full of those lil thingers... small (matchbox-like) boxes, right? If anyone wants em, that could probably be arranged :) --f From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 10:24:22 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness References: <4134B183.12390.71564978@localhost> Message-ID: <00c601c48f6e$977fb4c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:12 AM Subject: eBay Madness > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119316334&rd=1 > > No Comment. > H. > -- > VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > Somebody might bite from overseas, you never know. Never underestimate what you can get from an eBay shopper without a clue. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 31 10:32:24 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: <4134B183.12390.71564978@localhost> Message-ID: Will wonders never cease... Although the seller does have this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119262995 And a few "cute" "toy" robots, at "reasonable" prices.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:13 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: eBay Madness >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193& >>> item=5119316334&rd=1 >>> >>> No Comment. >>> H. >>> -- >>> VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen >>> http://www.vcfe.org/ >>> From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 31 10:09:27 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness References: Message-ID: <01f301c48f6c$8244bf80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Will wonders never cease... Although the seller does have this... Hum... I just came across a box of 5 1/4 diskettes, all for the Victor computer. Includes DOS 1.1, CPM86, and a ton of victor productivity apps. Bet I can't retire just yet though *Grin* Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 31 10:38:54 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: <00c601c48f6e$977fb4c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <4134B7AE.10147.716E62E7@localhost> Am 31 Aug 2004 11:24 meinte Teo Zenios: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119316334&rd=1 > > No Comment. > Somebody might bite from overseas, you never know. Aw, come on, maybe from Kansas :) > Never underestimate what you can get from an eBay shopper without a clue. *G* jup. Every day an idiot gets up on this world, all you have to do is find him and get his money. H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 31 10:35:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: <10408310742.ZM9319@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Can't you just wrap the invocation of pine and the key sequence to send > the message in a 2- or 3-line DOS batch file? The one thing that you may have missed (I probably wasn't explicit enough) is that it must fit in memory with another application already running. The running application will shell out to DOS to send an e-mail. It must be able to fit and operate in less than 64K. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Tue Aug 31 10:42:14 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk Message-ID: >One of my customers has a box full of those lil thingers... small >(matchbox-like) boxes, right? If anyone wants em, that could >probably be arranged :) Yup, they are about the size of a fat matchbox, with a tail on one end and two RJ-12's on the other. The LocalTalk version is a little thinner, and has two mini-din 3 jacks instead of RJ-12 jacks. I see them all the time on the LEM Swap list for darn near free. -chris From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 31 10:46:14 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: $2 sale - concluded Message-ID: Thanks to all that responded. I couldn't cover everyone, so if I missed you, or you were beaten to the punch, sorry. The winners have been notified. Guys, remember if you Paypal, do not use this osfn email address for my account, but the bestweb one. Thanks all! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rcini at optonline.net Tue Aug 31 11:04:02 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: <4134B183.12390.71564978@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c48f74$22f86920$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> This was listed a few weeks ago with no takers (obviously). -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans Franke Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: eBay Madness http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119316334& rd=1 No Comment. H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Aug 31 11:30:13 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay madness Message-ID: <4134A795.E3CBFE4B@ccp.com> Yes, notice the number of bids. Somebody thinks he's got something higly desireable, but doesn't. I've found e-Bay, or ePay, or eGreed to be quite inflationary to sane pricing thanks to too many people with too much time and money on their hands. That coupled with 'sniping', makes eBay to me a last resort, if I can't find something elsewhere. The feeding frenzy at the end, or sniping, is now done by software that submit your bid with seconds to spare, eliminating counter bids. People are using computers to beat the eBay computers. My friend suggested that the incremental bidding be changed to whatever the MAXIMUM bid is placed. If the item is at $10 and you place a bid for $100, the bid would then become $100, not $11.00. That would eliminate a lot of counter bidding, and shills that bid up just to feel out your maximum bid. Personally I think keeping the bidding secret until the auction is over, would keep honest people honest. No one scheme would be fair to everyone though. I'll stick to swap meets, and other face-to-face deals, as I'll have less competition. Everything is worthless until someone wants it and puts some dinero down to prove it. I don't need some rich kid playing games behind me when I'm dealing with someone one-on-one. On the other side of the coin, it is hilariously laughable to see what some people pay for very common items. Caveat Emptor. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 31 12:29:06 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson "Re: Phone Talk / Apple Talk" (Aug 31, 0:44) References: <206A1A54-FAE8-11D8-BF23-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10408310746.ZM9326@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <8AB107C6-FB21-11D8-9E8F-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <10408311829.ZM9757@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 31 2004, 0:44, Ron Hudson wrote: > I am currently using an Imagewriter printer cable to hook up one > device, and that > seems to work ok, and there is no electronics there.. Perhaps the > transformers are > for some safety - decoupling purpose? You have the equivalent of a point-to-point link, with Tx on one device connected to Rx on the other. When you have things set up as a network, all the Txs go onto a bus that connects all the Rxs. The transformers allow the signals to combine, and separate them for each station. But I'd expect you could just find some proper boxes easily and cheaply enough; they're not rare, even here in the UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 12:42:23 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay madness References: <4134A795.E3CBFE4B@ccp.com> Message-ID: <000601c48f81$dfe2c370$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Hildebrand" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: re: eBay madness > Yes, notice the number of bids. Somebody thinks he's got something > higly desireable, but doesn't. > > I've found e-Bay, or ePay, or eGreed to be quite inflationary to sane > pricing thanks to too many people with too much time and money on their > hands. That coupled with 'sniping', makes eBay to me a last resort, if > I can't find something elsewhere. > > The feeding frenzy at the end, or sniping, is now done by software that > submit your bid with seconds to spare, eliminating counter bids. People > are using computers to beat the eBay computers. > > My friend suggested that the incremental bidding be changed to whatever > the MAXIMUM bid is placed. If the item is at $10 and you place a bid > for $100, the bid would then become $100, not $11.00. That would > eliminate a lot of counter bidding, and shills that bid up just to feel > out your maximum bid. Personally I think keeping the bidding secret > until the auction is over, would keep honest people honest. No one > scheme would be fair to everyone though. > > I'll stick to swap meets, and other face-to-face deals, as I'll have > less competition. Everything is worthless until someone wants it and > puts some dinero down to prove it. I don't need some rich kid playing > games behind me when I'm dealing with someone one-on-one. > > On the other side of the coin, it is hilariously laughable to see what > some people pay for very common items. Caveat Emptor. > > Gary Hildebrand > St. Joseph, MO > If you take the sniping out of the auction prices will not go down, they will go up. Even with sniping if you put a proxy bid in for the maximum you are willing to pay you can still win. Auctions are great for hyped up bidding wars between people with allot of cash that don't like to lose. Face to face deals are nice (for the buyer) when the seller is clueless and the buyer knows what he is looking at (lowballing the price). Some people prefer to buy from individuals and then prefer to sell on eBay for profit. When you have something on ebay that is rare and desirable or even common you will get a decent price for it on most days. Something common to you is not common to other people, especially when location is taken into account. I had to wait for quite a while to get an Amiga 1200 at a price I wanted to spend here in the US, in the UK they are given away and are as common as dirt (and this stuff was made here in PA). It takes time to build relationships with people who dispose of equipment, to get on mailinglists/swaplists, and to get the word out you collect old computers. Some people don't want to spend the time and effort to do these things so they pay more for the opportunity to bid on eBay without having to leave the comfort of their house. I have found some great deals on eBay and I have also bid on countless auctions that I have lost out to snipers, its just part of the game. If you can wait a while to add things to your collection at the prices you want to spend eBay is still the best place to look for oddball things that got scrapped long ago. The equipment I buy gets used, software that's shrink-wrapped gets opened. People who pay $10,000 or more for an Apple I board that they put in a glass case on the wall are odd to me. From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 31 13:03:29 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: New toys: 1944 IBM !!! Warning OT In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831140050.0333b5e8@192.168.0.1> At 12:00 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote: > Also picked up a mint LOW sn (~7000) Inland M1 ( made 1942!!) and a mint >Rockola M1. (Rockola manufactured juke boxs prior and subsequent to WW II). > I working on picking up a couple more including one made by National >Postal Meter and one made by UN-Quality and, with some luck, an ULTRA RARE >Irwin-Pederson. Wish me luck! Good Luck! Glad to hear you came through ok, and managed to come up smelling like roses with those super finds. There was a thread while you were gone about lubricants. Mentioned how M1's needed grease and M16's oil, but no one took off with it. :-) Ed From ohh at drizzle.com Tue Aug 31 13:03:10 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: <4134B183.12390.71564978@localhost> Message-ID: Quoth Hans Franke: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119316334&rd=1 > > No Comment. That's pretty impressive, though for sheer chutzpah I had to admire this one as well: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3694369132 $500 start price, and a reserve! Pity it's closed, as I was just _itching_ to bid. (If they had actually included a PDP-12 _with_ it, though... ) -O.- From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 31 13:23:19 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Software Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831141751.0333bb70@192.168.0.1> Got an email offlist from a person in .de wanting a copy of Emulex tape/disk/comm product diagnostics and formatters. My replies keep bouncing, so go ahead and contact me again please. I have 2 teledisk images and txt file zipped up. Is there a place that archives this and would want a copy? Ed The EMULEX RX50 diagnostic kit consists of two RX50 diskettes. Diskette 1 contains all the disk and tape diagnostic required to allow you to format, install, and troubleshoot the following EMULEX disk and tape products. CONTROLLER PROGRAM NAME FUNCTION SC03/BX SXBX0B FORMAT AND VERIFY S1B19X RM DISK EXERCISER S1B29A RP06 DISK EXERCISER SC03/MS SXMX8B FORMAT,VERIFY,NOVRAM QD01 LOADER QD32 SC02/C SXCX0D FORMAT,VERIFY, DISK EXERCISER UC03 U1MX8E FORMAT AND VERIFY UC01 U1LX0D FORMAT AND VERIFY S1LX8A BAD SECTOR UTILITY S1LX9A DISK EXERCISER SC02/L S1LX8A BAD SECTOR UTILITY S1LX9A DISK EXERCISER TC02 T1SX2A DATA RELIABILITY TC03 TC05 TC03 T1SX3A DATA RELIABILITY FOR TAPE DRIVES WITH NO READ REVERSE CAPABILITY IN GCR QT12 T1QX3A DATA RELIABILITY Diskette 2 contains all the diagnostics necessary to install and test the following EMULEX communications products. CS01/H2 C1H21A COMPREHENSIVE TEST C1H22A DATA RELIABILITY CS01/H2/128 WD SILO OPT C1H21B COMPREHENSIVE TEST C1H22A DATA RELIABILITY CS01/H2/256 WD SILO OPT C1H21C COMPREHENSIVE TEST C1H22A DATA RELIABILITY CS02/H2- DH C1HX1A COMPREHENSIVE TEST C1HX2A DATA RELIABILITY - DHV C1HV1A FUNCTION TEST 1 C1HV2A FUNCTION TEST 2 C1HV3A FUNCTION TEST 3 From technobug at comcast.net Tue Aug 31 13:38:48 2004 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: <200408311700.i7VH03fP075226@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200408311700.i7VH03fP075226@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:53:08 -0700 Ron Hudson asked: > > Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 node > "wire" out of just > wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? First some definitions: Appletalk is the protocol that Apple used for connecting to printers and other computers. Localtalk is the hardware specification. Looking around for the latter will give you a lot more information. The problem Apple (and others) solved is how to connect multiple RS232 (RS422) devices together without blowing everything to bits. Their solution was to use a transformer with two independent windings on the primary and one on the secondary (along with a few resistors). The secondary windings are paralleled among the various devices. The primaries are connected to the Tx and Rx of the RS232. This makes for a simple two-wire network. Normally, the ends of the secondary bus are terminated in 110 Ohm resistors. Apple's implementation used proprietary cables. Third party boxes (Farallon, etc.) used RS11 phone cables. I've seen these boxes at various charity outlets in the recent past going for next to nothing. If you have an old phone modem laying around (parts - not collectable...) you can use the output coupling transformer to make an adaptor. They generally have the two-primary/one-secondary format and have the correct ratio. The receiver side of the primary should be terminated with a couple hundred Ohm resistor. As a side note, there are a lot of Localtalk printers and the like showing up for cheap. Connection to Windoze and Linux boxes are generally a problem. There are cards that talk Appletalk, but they are fairly scarce. However, there are a number of bridges coming available that connect ethernet to Localtalk and the Appletalk drivers are available for both OSs. CRC From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 31 13:53:26 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: <10408311829.ZM9757@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <206A1A54-FAE8-11D8-BF23-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10408310746.ZM9326@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <8AB107C6-FB21-11D8-9E8F-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10408311829.ZM9757@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <0AE05470-FB7F-11D8-91E3-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 31, 2004, at 10:29 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 31 2004, 0:44, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I am currently using an Imagewriter printer cable to hook up one >> device, and that >> seems to work ok, and there is no electronics there.. Perhaps the >> transformers are >> for some safety - decoupling purpose? > > You have the equivalent of a point-to-point link, with Tx on one device > connected to Rx on the other. When you have things set up as a > network, all the Txs go onto a bus that connects all the Rxs. The > transformers allow the signals to combine, and separate them for each > station. > > But I'd expect you could just find some proper boxes easily and cheaply > enough; they're not rare, even here in the UK. Here's the schematic from the site You mentioned... ============== A "O" means a connection PIN NUMBERS ARE FOR MAC DB-9. NUMBERS IN () ARE FOR MINI DIN 8 (MAC PLUS) CapNet Connector (last update 8/21/90) J1 J2 9 (5) C1 .1 uF RCV(-) ----------------------------O----------][------O ! 8 (8) ! C2 .1 uF RCV(+) --------------------------------O------][------O ! ! ^ ! ! TO 5 (3) 10 ohm ! ! "PHONE" TX(-) -----------O-----------R3---- ! LINES ! ! 4 (6) ! 10 ohm ! TX(+) -----------------O-----R4-------- ! ! 1K R R 1K 1 2 ! ! 3 (4) ! ! GND -----------O------ PARTS LIST: QTY DES ITEM 2 R1,2 1K 1/8W RESISTORS 2 R3,4 10 OHM 1/8W RESISTORS 2 C1,2 .1 uF THREE LAYER CERAMIC CAPS 1 J1 DB-9 MALE OR MINI DIN 8 CONNECTOR 1 J2 2 PIN BERG OR RJ-11 PHONE CONNECTOR 5 WIRE (NOT SHOWN) 22 GAUGE STRANDED WIRE 6" ============================== I assume I connect all the together and all the together to actually join the machines.. Since all 3 items are sitting in one place, I will probably build a small PCB with 3 parts of 2 printer cables cut in half. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 31 14:45:42 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:55:54 CDT." <01ab01c48f6a$9dced620$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <200408311945.i7VJjgQk032528@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >I saw an RX01 listed for 500... made me think I should list a couple of >mine! I could use a real RX01. How much? :-) (and don't start at $500! :-) -brad From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Aug 31 14:53:27 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:38 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <4134A795.E3CBFE4B@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> At 12:30 PM 8/31/2004, you wrote: >The feeding frenzy at the end, or sniping, is now done by software that >submit your bid with seconds to spare, eliminating counter bids. People >are using computers to beat the eBay computers. Oww! They got me! Outbid in the last 6 seconds on an RD54. I agree with Teo though. You put your max bid out there, and if you get it - great! If not, well I didn't want it at that price. If eBay, and the Internet, were not there all this stuff would be going in the dumpster instead. What's a fair price on an RD54? Sold 5 last week for $300 each. Had bought them years back though and paid probably $1700 apiece for them. It's the free market at work and it's a great thing - for everyone. Got my daughter a Toshiba laptop when she went off to college a few years back. She managed to step on the screen within a month or two. (Remembering how her room was usually knee deep in crap I wasn't too surprised). Anyway, found someone on eBay last week selling the same laptop for parts, with no cpu, drives, or memory. But the screen was good and I got it for $38+shipping and it had a good battery. Without eBay and the Internet we both would have lost out. By far and away a very beneficial thing for everyone. Most complaints I think are just sour grapes. :-) Ed From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Aug 31 15:11:22 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: eBay Madness In-Reply-To: <200408311945.i7VJjgQk032528@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: I *may* be selling an RX-01...recovered during a rescue, believed working [although a note from 1986 indicates possible thermal problems with one of the drives].... Hoping to test it *eventually*, could be persuaded to sell for the right price. Contact me off list if interested. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:46 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: eBay Madness >>> >>> >>> "Jay West" wrote: >>> >I saw an RX01 listed for 500... made me think I should >>> list a couple of >>> >mine! >>> >>> I could use a real RX01. How much? :-) >>> >>> (and don't start at $500! :-) >>> >>> -brad From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 31 15:06:43 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <000601c48f81$dfe2c370$0500fea9@game> References: <4134A795.E3CBFE4B@ccp.com> <000601c48f81$dfe2c370$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <9fb23ee74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <000601c48f81$dfe2c370$0500fea9@game> "Teo Zenios" wrote: > I have found some great deals on eBay and I have also bid on countless > auctions that I have lost out to snipers, its just part of the game. Same here - I tried to get some parts for my logic analyser (pod cables and grabbers) locally - Agilent wanted ?69 (IIRC) for 20 grabbers, most T&M equipment dealers wanted at least twice that. I paid $20 including shipping for a set of 20 grabbers from a seller on Ebay. I'm also bidding on a pod-to-analyser cable and a pod repair kit (the eejit that sold me the pods never bothered mentioning that a few of the cables were damaged to the point of inoperability - I only noticed after I'd left feedback). > The equipment I buy gets used, software that's shrink-wrapped gets opened. > People who pay $10,000 or more for an Apple I board that they put in a glass > case on the wall are odd to me. I agree. I bought my BBC Micro (Master 128 variant) to use, not to shove in a cabinet to be looked at but not touched. They're computers, they're designed as tools, they should be used not looked at from behind a pane of glass. What I would like to do is build a replica of the MOS KIM-1 (or Synertek SYM-1, more likely the latter). I've got a CPU chip, but I'd need to source some 6530 (or 6532? can't remember the part number perfectly) RIOT chips or emulate them with an FPGA. As for the keyboard, well, there's always keyswitches and PCB blanks :) In case you haven't guessed, I like the 6502 - never really managed to get to grips with Z80 assembler, but 6502 ASM was easy (no worse than learning PIC16 assembler). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Are those cookies made with real Girl Scouts? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 31 15:32:56 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: New toys: 1944 IBM !!! Warning OT In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831140050.0333b5e8@192.168.0.1> References: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040831163256.008f3d50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:03 PM 8/31/04 -0400, Ed wrote: >At 12:00 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote: >> Also picked up a mint LOW sn (~7000) Inland M1 ( made 1942!!) and a mint >>Rockola M1. (Rockola manufactured juke boxs prior and subsequent to WW II). >> I working on picking up a couple more including one made by National >>Postal Meter and one made by UN-Quality and, with some luck, an ULTRA RARE >>Irwin-Pederson. Wish me luck! > > >Good Luck! >Glad to hear you came through ok, and managed to come up smelling like roses >with those super finds. > >There was a thread while you were gone about lubricants. >Mentioned how M1's needed grease and M16's oil, but no one took off with >it. :-) I missed that. But IMHO the lubriplate grease supplied in those little plastic cans with the M1 Carbine and M1 Garand and M14s is one of the all around best lubricants that there is. BTW just in case anyone hasn't been watching the news, a new BIGGER hurricane (Frances) is now headed this way. It's headed directly for me and the forecast shows only a slim chance of it changing course so HERE WE GO AGAIN! I spent all morning boarding up and trying to get everything under cover but still have two damaged sheds that I haven't even looked at since the last hurricane and the roadsides are still covered in debris waiting to be picked up. I replaced most of the fencing but I don't know if it will withstand Frances or not. It's due to hit here early Sunday AM so I'm going to be busy getting prepared. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 15:05:19 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 31, 4 06:18:28 am Message-ID: > > Brent> Speaking of various keyboards: some time ago I received a bare > > Brent> (no machine, no case, no ID) keyboard utilising > > Brent> magnetically-activated reed relays for the key contacts. Reed > > Brent> relays were commonly used for calculator keyboards in the > > Brent> late-60s/early 70s and it probably dates from this era, but > > Brent> this is the only occasion I have seen reed relays used in an > > Brent> alphabetic keyboard. > > > > Tektronix also used this. The Tek 4014 has such a keyboard. Maybe we should make a list of the various keyboard technologies : Mecahnical switches Metal contacts pressed together by key 'Snap action' domes or strips (e.g. HP35) Membranes pressed together when key is pressed Metal contacts held apart and allowed to touch when key is pressed (e.g. VT100) Microswitches Reed switches Hall Effect sensors Capacitance change devices Plastic flap over PCB (e.g. IBM PC) 'Keytronics' type Transformer coupling between PCB tracks -- moving core on the key (e.g. ICL Termiprinter) Pair of balanced transformers, one of which is damped by the key (e.g HP9810) Mecahnical encoding, parallel output mechanical contacts (e.g. ASR33) Mechanical encoding, serial output mechanical contact (e.g. Creed 7E) What have I missed (I think I have examples of all of those in use here!) -tony From shirker at mooli.org.uk Tue Aug 31 16:02:43 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1093292683.6189.23.camel@dhcp-248163> <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Getting into full-screen setup should be accomplished with > Shift- Hi Brent, Thanks for this, and all the rest of the info about these terminals. I knew the full-screen setup wasn't a figment of my imagination ;) Regards, Ed. From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Aug 31 16:03:01 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > Maybe we should make a list of the various keyboard technologies : [very comprehensive list snipped] > > Mecahnical switches > > What have I missed (I think I have examples of all of those in use here!) Platinum wires dipping into mercury cups - a la Hollerith... Cheers John From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 06:27:06 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6404083004275e8c05dd@mail.gmail.com> I saw a few people moaning that their lk201 does not have an esc key, I have one connected to a vt320 and is has an esc key on F11. It works for me i've got it connected to a dec server 300 and it works under solairs, bsd and vms. I haven't changed any settings on it since I reset it to factory defaults. Dan From pzachary at sasquatch.com Mon Aug 30 09:21:20 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads In-Reply-To: <200408281039.GAA01636@parse.com> References: <200408281039.GAA01636@parse.com> Message-ID: <59174.216.218.236.136.1093875680.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> remove the rust, rather than waiting for it to get worse, a very fine scotchbrite pad will do. Then coat it with a protectant, heavy,inert grease (cosmoline). I don't think the heads are chemically sensitive. P_ > > I've noticed a few spots of rust on some TU55 tape heads that > I have. I'm wondering what I should do about it in the short > term -- I've had an idea of putting something on the heads > and then cleaning it off later, like oil or vaseline or... ? > > Any suggestions? > > Is there anything I can do with the heads later to clean the > rust off? Are they totally hosed, or will they still work? > This is on my "todo list" as far as restoration goes, just > haven't gotten to it yet, but wanted to prevent any further > damage if possible... > > Thanks in advance, > -RK > > [If replying to me personally by email, you'll need to click on > the URL that's mailed back to you to whitelist yourself.] > -- > Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. > Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at > www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 > minicomputers! From classiccomp-tech at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 10:00:00 2004 From: classiccomp-tech at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on them, will it copy all the blocks from the device, or am I going to get messed around by the PC BIOS INT13 doing stupid CHS translation on the otherwise LBA device and potentially miss some blocks at the end of the device? Does Linux go through the SCSI cards BIOS or does it talk directly to the carsd hardware & so do raw LBA? Of course, it probably all depends on the version of linux I'd use. Any suggestions? ta greg (note, I've not actually got a linux box setup to do this at this point in time, I've an AHA2940 lined up to stick in a PC and then figure out the wonderfull world of SCSI on linux...) From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 11:34:15 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Realistic MPA 35A In-Reply-To: <000701c48c2c$0eb4dc00$cd29fea9@pckrummrich> References: <000701c48c2c$0eb4dc00$cd29fea9@pckrummrich> Message-ID: <26c11a64040830093467384ab9@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:50:32 +0200, Berndt Krummrich wrote: > Hello, > > My english is not so good. I hope, you can help me. I have from Ebay in > Germany a Realistic MPA 35A. I think he is good for Microphone and for > Music. I find of the Backside two Contact for Aux and for Phone Two Input > for Microphone. This Realistic is for 1 Speaker, its Mono. Where is a > contact for the Speaker? > > I find many Contacts on the Backside. I have two Speakers 120 Watts 8 Ohm > >From the Speaker I have a red line and a black line. Where is the Contact > for the Speaker. > > Thank you, for your Time > > Berndt > > I wonder if he meant to send this to classicamp.org ;) Dan From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Mon Aug 30 21:02:04 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks Message-ID: <200408310202.WAA11837@ss10.danlan.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: |I'll second that. | |Lyle | |On Monday 30 August 2004 12:49, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: |> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Dan Lanciani wrote: |> > I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a |> > 1797-style controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all |> > of my old disks with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector |> > (not bad for media that is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to |> > have run through *drives* at an alarming rate, though I hope that the |> > cleaning disks I have on order will restore some of them. Is anyone |> > interested in: |> > |> > -Technical details (the method should work for many non-standard FM |> > formats)? |> |> Hi Dan. |> |> By all means, please post some technical details. My plan was to read a track at a time in MFM mode to get both the clock and data bits which I could decode in software. The first problem was the index holes. I disconnected the index signal from the drive and routed the 1797's index input to a bit on an i/o port. (I was doing this on an H100 so I used the manual precomp line.) With index under software control I could create a fake hole, read as many bytes of data as I wanted, and the create another fake hole to terminate the command. The next problem was clock/data synchronization. Even in MFM mode the 1797 exposes only 8 bits (that is, every other bit) of its 16-bit data shift register to the cpu. Normally a special pattern with missing clock pulses synchronizes the register to the bit stream, but of course there is no such special pattern when reading FM data as MFM. I had initially hoped that there would be enough random variation such that a few attempts at reading any given track would result in at least one instance where the data was in the desired position. Unfortunately, the reading process turned out to be pretty much deterministic and if a particular run of bits was out of phase once it was likely to remain so. To solve the bit synchronization problem I intercepted the raw data input to the 1797 and delayed each pulse by 2 microseconds with half of a 74123, using the other half to produce a pulse of similar length to the original (not that the latter is critical). I then diode-or'ed the delayed bit stream with the original and fed the result to the 1797's raw data input. This guarantees that regardless of the clock/data bit phase relationship to the data shift register, all the bits are available to the CPU. Because the 1797 uses an external clock recovery circuit the timing of my delayed pulses does not interfere with accurate clock tracking. With the raw bits in memory I apply a simple algorithm to separate clock and data. I examine a bit. If it is a 0 it must be data and I shift it to the output buffer. If it is 1 I drop it and shift the next bit to the output buffer whether it is a 0 or a 1. With the data bits in memory I simply mimic the H17's normal operation by searching from sync bytes and accumulating bytes thereafter. Note that the bits in a byte for the H17 are reversed from most other disk formats. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From Mark at Misty.com Mon Aug 30 21:24:34 2004 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-300 - Null Modem Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040831022434.GA29018@lucky.misty.com> Hi, On Sat, Aug 28, 2004 at 06:58:43PM -0400, Philippe Vachon wrote: > Howdy! > > I recently acquired a DEC MicroVAX 4000-300 and I want to connect it up > to an old PC that I can use as a dumb terminal. Unfortunately, I lack a > proper null modem cable, but I have a nice length of phone cable (it's > the same connector pretty much, if you sand down the clip, right?) and Interesting idea. I just went through this, though fortunately found an MMJ cable in my junkbox, with some MMJ hoods for making adapters. > a nice length of serial cable with connectors on each end. My question > is, is it possible to jury rig these two pieces of cable, so that I can > have my VAX up and running for at least a single user (Ethernet will > come later! ;) ). If so, what lines should I cross (pin numbers would > be nice :). This might be the adapter you are looking for, if you care to ebay for it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5703657438 If you decide to make your own, there is detailed information about the pin-out on the www.tru64.org website in the FAQ: http://www.tru64.org/pages.php?page=Tru64-FAQ-Hardware I believe this is also in other DEC hardware FAQs and a VMS FAQ somewhere. Note that depending on your terminal emulator, you may need to loop RTS to CTS, and do not make the mistake I did of disregarding a ground on both of the "RX-" and "TX-" leads. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark@Misty.com) http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From ejchapel at comcast.net Mon Aug 30 21:50:23 2004 From: ejchapel at comcast.net (Ed Chapel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040830194541.0204b860@mail.comcast.net> Currently on eBay is an auction for a Poly 8810. The seller shows pictures of the screen with random text garbage. Anyone know if this is normal for these systems, if perhaps a boot disk is not readable? Or is this a hardware problem? The eBay item number is 5119743938 From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Mon Aug 30 22:33:28 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Imagen print controller Message-ID: <200408310333.XAA14149@ss10.danlan.com> Anybody want an Imagen IP/II print controller (less power supply)? These are the multibus systems with a floppy that drove 300 dpi Cannon engines. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From brendle at ems.psu.edu Tue Aug 31 07:17:55 2004 From: brendle at ems.psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Phone Talk / Apple Talk In-Reply-To: <8AB107C6-FB21-11D8-9E8F-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <206A1A54-FAE8-11D8-BF23-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10408310746.ZM9326@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <8AB107C6-FB21-11D8-9E8F-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I think that PhoneNet required you to insert an RJ-jack that had a terminating resistor on it (that always seemed to get lost), unlike Apple's localtalk boxes which self-terminated. [why do I have shades of Terminator 2 here?] It is a bus type of network, so what's in it? probably just something that detects if a device is present on each port & terminated the "ends" of the bus network at a minimum. Of course, I have none to examine any longer. You might still be able to find them however. -j On Aug 31, 2004, at 3:44 AM, Ron Hudson wrote: > Thanks... > > I am currently using an Imagewriter printer cable to hook up one > device, and that > seems to work ok, and there is no electronics there.. Perhaps the > transformers are > for some safety - decoupling purpose? > > > On Aug 30, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On Aug 30 2004, 17:53, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> >>> Anyone know how these are wired inside? could I make a dedicated 3 >> node >>> "wire" out of just >>> wire and connectors? perhaps an odd resistor or two? >> >> I've never had a real Farallon PhoneTalk unit so I don't know, but I >> suspect it has some real electronics inside, or a hybrid transformer >> like LocalTalk boxes. However, if you're starting from scratch, you >> might look at the CapNet subsitute. The first link Google finds for >> "capnet localtalk" will find a copy of the document I originally saw >> several years ago, at http://www.jagshouse.com/localtalk.html >> >> -- >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Network Manager >> University of York >> > > Jeff Brendle Office: 313 EESB/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 Desktop Support Spv. Home: 146 Haverford Circle Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)238-8811 Mailto:bli@psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle From BLANE at agr.gov.sk.ca Tue Aug 31 12:46:46 2004 From: BLANE at agr.gov.sk.ca (Lane, Barry SAFRR) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Bruker Aspect 3000 computer and drives available Message-ID: <4491EF4A5F6B4E40BDC73E7408F432CD4FCF24@saf.sna.gov.sk.ca> I have a working bruker aspect 3000 and the disc drive, is there any buyers you might know of for these items? Barry Lane - Audio Visual Services Saskatchewan Agriculture, Food and Rural Revitalization Room B5, 3085 Albert St. Regina, Saskatchewan, CANADA S4S 0B1 (306) 787-5158 FAX 787-0216 From drb at msu.edu Tue Aug 31 12:52:27 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:37:16 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <200408311752.i7VHqRfk010545@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Then it isn't quite what I'm looking for. > > I appreciate all the Google links but I already did that. > > The program I need doesn't exist. I think you're looking for is an MTA, not an MUA. It seems like smail used to be buildable on DOS. You might also try to find a copy of Bdale Garbee's "bm" mailer; not sure if it does what you need, but it's at least worth looking. De From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 13:17:00 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 In-Reply-To: <200408311801.i7VI1JfS077635@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200408311817.i7VIGxVe024696@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I'd say that it's not working. The random display does suggest that a lot of the video card is functional. However, it also suggests that the ROM monitor on the CPU card isn't being run, which would clear the screen. This could suggest bad memory or CPU or both, but in any case I'd say that, contrary to what the seller says, the system is not functioning properly. From robo58 at optonline.net Tue Aug 31 13:48:51 2004 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Restoring an Early Mac's plastic case References: <4133D7B2.mail49J11MHHW@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <000501c48f8b$29c46760$6401a8c0@P42800> Hi Folks, I have an early Mac that I recently pulled out of storage. I'd like to clean it up especially the plastic case. The case and keyboard seems to have yellowed over time. Can the color of the plastic case and keyboard be restored? If so please advise on product(s) and/or techniques. Thanks Robo From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Tue Aug 31 14:41:05 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks Message-ID: <200408311941.PAA11916@ss10.danlan.com> "Jay West" wrote: |It was written... |> I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a |1797-style |> controller (with some modifications). I've now archived all of my old |disks |> with only one unrecoverable error in an unused sector (not bad for media |that |> is approaching 30 years in age). I do seem to have run through *drives* |at |> an alarming rate, though I hope that the cleaning disks I have on order |will |> restore some of them. Is anyone interested in: | |I have a huge cache of H8/H89/Z100 software, half a room full at the least |(the other half of the room being documentation for same). Where are you |located? Gloucester, MA |I'd rather not ship it all, but would welcome someone to come over |and archive the bits. I'd rather not move my computer, though. It's already reaching that sensitive-to-shock stage, especially the Ethernet card. (Yes, my H100 has Ethernet, which is very convenient for the archiving process.) |I would bet I have more than a few spare hard sector drives as well, many |new in the box. That might be good, since my cleaning kits arrived and they do not appear to restore the drives in question. :( Of course, they just use isopropyl alcohol which was never as good as the (now evil) chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents. I wonder if there is something stronger I can use? Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 31 16:54:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! Message-ID: <200408312154.OAA16134@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> > Brent> Speaking of various keyboards: some time ago I received a bare >> > Brent> (no machine, no case, no ID) keyboard utilising >> > Brent> magnetically-activated reed relays for the key contacts. Reed >> > Brent> relays were commonly used for calculator keyboards in the >> > Brent> late-60s/early 70s and it probably dates from this era, but >> > Brent> this is the only occasion I have seen reed relays used in an >> > Brent> alphabetic keyboard. >> > >> >> Tektronix also used this. The Tek 4014 has such a keyboard. > >Maybe we should make a list of the various keyboard technologies : > >Mecahnical switches > Metal contacts pressed together by key > 'Snap action' domes or strips (e.g. HP35) > Membranes pressed together when key is pressed > Metal contacts held apart and allowed to touch when key is pressed > (e.g. VT100) > Microswitches > Reed switches > >Hall Effect sensors > >Capacitance change devices > Plastic flap over PCB (e.g. IBM PC) > 'Keytronics' type > >Transformer coupling between PCB tracks -- moving core on the key >(e.g. ICL Termiprinter) > >Pair of balanced transformers, one of which is damped by the key (e.g HP9810) > >Mecahnical encoding, parallel output mechanical contacts (e.g. ASR33) > >Mechanical encoding, serial output mechanical contact (e.g. Creed 7E) > >What have I missed (I think I have examples of all of those in use here!) > >-tony > Hi You missed acoustic delay line. Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 31 16:59:59 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <26c11a6404083004275e8c05dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Williams writes: Dan> I saw a few people moaning that their lk201 does not have an esc Dan> key, I have one connected to a vt320 and is has an esc key on Dan> F11. That's true. It's just in a nonsensical spot. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 31 17:01:32 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads References: <200408281039.GAA01636@parse.com> <59174.216.218.236.136.1093875680.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> Message-ID: <16692.62780.874217.132582@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "pzachary" == pzachary writes: pzachary> remove the rust, rather than waiting for it to get worse, a pzachary> very fine scotchbrite pad will do. Then coat it with a pzachary> protectant, heavy,inert grease (cosmoline). I don't think pzachary> the heads are chemically sensitive. Ye gods. Don't do any of that until you do a regular head cleaning. As others pointed out, chances are it's just loose tape oxide. And in particular, do NOT, repeat, NOT, put oil or grease on the head under any circumstance. While the head itself might not object, it will certainly get into the tape edge guide mechanism, at which point you have a big hassle on your hands getting the crud out. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 31 17:23:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 Message-ID: <200408312223.PAA16150@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" > >I'd say that it's not working. The random display does suggest that a lot >of the video card is functional. However, it also suggests that the ROM >monitor on the CPU card isn't being run, which would clear the screen. This >could suggest bad memory or CPU or both, but in any case I'd say that, >contrary to what the seller says, the system is not functioning properly. > > > > Hi I'd tend to agree with Barry. I have 2 Poly88's and one 8813. This is an indication that the system is not running. The video memory quite commonly has failures but this usually shows up as a chunk of the video not responding correctly. The video uses 2111 chips ( often 9111 populated ). I am seeing some quadrant like behavior so it might just be a lot of bad video RAM. If anyone gets this that is on the list, I can help them bring it back to life. Finding some of the RAM chips that work may be an issue. I went through a pile of these that Achor Electronics had and found only one in three that was any good. The fact that the disk seeks is a good indication though. If it is in fact doing this, the ROM's must be doing something. Dwight From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Aug 31 17:27:18 2004 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040830194541.0204b860@mail.comcast.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040830194541.0204b860@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040831182406.K9906@wilma.widomaker.com> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Ed Chapel wrote: > Currently on eBay is an auction for a Poly 8810. > The seller shows pictures of the screen with random text garbage. > Anyone know if this is normal for these systems, if perhaps a boot disk is > not readable? > Or is this a hardware problem? > > The eBay item number is 5119743938 > I have a Polymorphic display card in my Altair and that's exactly how it looks on power up, working normally. Just random garbage in memory. I can post a photo for doubters. A two byte 8080 program would clear all memory incl. the display (0x33, 0xc7 i think, inc sp then rst 0) --Chuck From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Aug 31 17:33:23 2004 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040830194541.0204b860@mail.comcast.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040830194541.0204b860@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040831182945.C9906@wilma.widomaker.com> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Ed Chapel wrote: > Currently on eBay is an auction for a Poly 8810. > The seller shows pictures of the screen with random text garbage. > Anyone know if this is normal for these systems, if perhaps a boot disk is > Let me amend the last response - I'm ONLY speaking about the video card, I know nothing about the Poly systems, if a ROM is supposed to clear the display memory before hitting the disk or what ;) But what is shown is good power, video memory and signal. --Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 31 17:34:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Building 6502 machine was Re: eBay madness Message-ID: <200408312234.PAA16156@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" ---snip--- >What I would like to do is build a replica of the MOS KIM-1 (or Synertek >SYM-1, more likely the latter). I've got a CPU chip, but I'd need to source >some 6530 (or 6532? can't remember the part number perfectly) RIOT chips or >emulate them with an FPGA. As for the keyboard, well, there's always >keyswitches and PCB blanks :) >In case you haven't guessed, I like the 6502 - never really managed to get to >grips with Z80 assembler, but 6502 ASM was easy (no worse than learning PIC16 >assembler). > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, Hi Phil You could use a 6532 in place of the KIM's 6530. It would require some external decoder logic to get the ROM data to an external ROM. Also, the internal selects my be masked different than the permanent selects of the 6532. This would also require a little translation. There are no original 6530's with the KIM mask available unless one trashes a KIM to get it ( don't even think of doing that ). The SYM-1's don't use a 6530 so that is not an issue for them :) Dwight From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 31 17:35:11 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) In-Reply-To: References: <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <454a4ce74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Shirker wrote: > Thanks for this, and all the rest of the info about these terminals. I > knew the full-screen setup wasn't a figment of my imagination ;) Seconded. What I would have liked is a *nix termcap/terminfo entry for it. I've just spent the day playing with terminfo - I now have a terminfo entry for the F1+ that makes the 3x2 control keypad (above the arrow keys) act like it does on a PC keyboard. I missed the Home, Delete and End keys and couldn't find anything on Google that mentioned their locations on a VT220 keyboard... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... My economy: Hairline recession; waist inflation; deep depression. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 31 17:45:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 Message-ID: <200408312245.PAA16167@clulw009.amd.com> >From: cswiger > >On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Ed Chapel wrote: >> Currently on eBay is an auction for a Poly 8810. >> The seller shows pictures of the screen with random text garbage. >> Anyone know if this is normal for these systems, if perhaps a boot disk is >> >Let me amend the last response - I'm ONLY speaking about the video >card, I know nothing about the Poly systems, if a ROM is supposed to >clear the display memory before hitting the disk or what ;) But >what is shown is good power, video memory and signal. > >--Chuck > > Hi It is possible that someone has grabbed a video card out of a Poly88 and stuck it in the Poly8810. This would require changing the address select from D000H to 1800H of the video. I believe ( as I reacll ) that the video is cleared right at the first before the disk seek happens. Dwight From AppleTO at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 17:50:52 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <1047a6e6040831155066202bf5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:53:27 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Most complaints I think are just sour grapes. :-) Sour I may be, but there were plenty of sources of neat computer "junk" before eBay. And I liked those sources, thank-you very much. They cultivated a sense of patience and appreciation. In my books, collecting old computer stuff has as much to do with the hunt as anything else. If the hunt is turned into a keyword search and instant gratification, it looses its appeal. Why? I think it's because you learn a lot more about computers while hunting them down than you do with them at your finger tips. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 31 17:54:31 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <26c11a6404083004275e8c05dd@mail.gmail.com> <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <8d0f4ee74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Williams writes: > > Dan> I saw a few people moaning that their lk201 does not have an esc > Dan> key, I have one connected to a vt320 and is has an esc key on > Dan> F11. > > That's true. It's just in a nonsensical spot. Doesn't seem to work on my Linux box though - or at least not with Vim. F11 just dumps the text "" to the screen -- the code that the terminal is sending seems to be { [23~ }, not Ctrl-[ or . *sigh*. Looks like I need to tweak the terminfo database again (if I can work out what needs tweaking) :-/ Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Violence is a lousy substitute for drugs and sex From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 31 18:01:31 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Software In-Reply-To: Ed Kelleher "Software" (Aug 31, 14:23) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831141751.0333bb70@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <10409010001.ZM10111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 31 2004, 14:23, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Got an email offlist from a person in .de wanting a copy of Emulex > tape/disk/comm product diagnostics and formatters. > > My replies keep bouncing, so go ahead and contact me again please. > > I have 2 teledisk images and txt file zipped up. > Is there a place that archives this and would want a copy? I can't really put them online, but I'd like a copy if possible, becasue I have an SC03/BX, an SC03/MS, a QD32, a TC02, and a CS02, but only some of the software. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Aug 31 18:17:16 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads In-Reply-To: <16692.62780.874217.132582@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200408281039.GAA01636@parse.com> <59174.216.218.236.136.1093875680.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> <16692.62780.874217.132582@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >>>>>> "pzachary" == pzachary writes: > > pzachary> remove the rust, rather than waiting for it to get worse, a > pzachary> very fine scotchbrite pad will do. Then coat it with a > pzachary> protectant, heavy,inert grease (cosmoline). I don't think > pzachary> the heads are chemically sensitive. No No No Pleeeeeeease nooooooo! unless your purpose is to 'decomission' that particular headstack... ;{} From my years of professional audio experience, including many pieces of gear restored and miles of media transfered - a truly *rusty* head assembly can sometimes be saved by removing it (implies you can replace it and re-align it) and using a strip of linen and some jeweller's rouge in a bit of mineral oil - used very judiciously, and certainly mindful of the VeryVery small space between the pole faces (the head gap). But I've seen very few actually "rusty" heads because most aren't made of materials that rust. I have cleaned my share of decades-old crusted-on accumulations of oxide and binders and whatnot - sometimes with a microscope and dental tools. I had at one time the materials to re-lap heads - a precision plate, holding fixtures, and a dial guage - but I just send 'em out now, let folks that do it for a living restore them.... Leave the ScotchBrite for what ot does well: post-dinner lasagna... Cheers John From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 31 18:45:13 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <41350D89.AD40399F@compsys.to> >classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk wrote: > I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a > complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on them, > will it copy all the blocks from the device, or am I going to get > messed around by the PC BIOS INT13 doing stupid CHS translation on the > otherwise LBA device and potentially miss some blocks at the end of > the device? Does Linux go through the SCSI cards BIOS or does it talk > directly to the carsd hardware & so do raw LBA? > Of course, it probably all depends on the version of linux I'd use. > Any suggestions? > ta > greg > (note, I've not actually got a linux box setup to do this at this > point in time, I've an AHA2940 lined up to stick in a PC and then > figure out the wonderfull world of SCSI on linux...) Jerome Fine replies: I realize that you are probably not running Windows 98 SE, but I have a Pentium III running Windows 98 SE (because I use E11 to run PDP-11 programs and this is the ONLY operating system which works) and use GHOST for backups. I also have an AHA2940 as well and I see that GHOST has an option to make exact copies of ANYTHING! So you don't even need to have a directory that GHOST recognizes. Just thought this might be helpful???? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 31 18:45:22 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Software In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831141751.0333bb70@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831141751.0333bb70@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <3bb752e74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040831141751.0333bb70@192.168.0.1> you wrote: > Got an email offlist from a person in .de wanting a copy of Emulex > tape/disk/comm product diagnostics and formatters. > > My replies keep bouncing, so go ahead and contact me again please. > > I have 2 teledisk images and txt file zipped up. > Is there a place that archives this and would want a copy? Retroarchive.org. I'm one of the maintainers of Retroarchive - if you can ZIP up the images and email them to me, I'll get them uploaded ASAP. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... MONEY TALKS ... but all mine ever says is GOODBYE! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 31 18:57:28 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> from "classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk" at Aug 30, 2004 04:00:00 PM Message-ID: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a > complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on them, > will it copy all the blocks from the device, or am I going to get Well, I can't really speak for the specific hardware you're going to use. However, I've taken 100MB and 200MB IBM drives out of my PDP-11/73, connected them to a Linux box via a SCSI controller, dd'd them off to a disk image. I've then ftp'd the disk image to a Mac, written the disk image to CD-R. Then taken the CD-R, placed it in the PDP-11/73's CD-ROM drive and booted the PDP-11 off of CD-ROM. What I've not attempted to do is dd a disk image back to a SCSI HD. It's on my list of things to try, but who knows what decade I'll finally find the time. Zane From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Aug 31 19:16:17 2004 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Polymorhic 8810 In-Reply-To: <200408312245.PAA16167@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20040831195720.032b5ea8@wilma.widomaker.com> > It is possible that someone has grabbed a video card out >of a Poly88 and stuck it in the Poly8810. This would require >changing the address select from D000H to 1800H of the video. > I believe ( as I reacll ) that the video is cleared right >at the first before the disk seek happens. That makes sense. Poly graphics mode was fun - every character 077 and below (octal) was a graphics character, with each bit mapping to a 3 tall by two block wide unit, turning a, what, 24X32 display into 72X64 (?) block display, with text and 'graphics' on screen at the same time. Anyway, that's what those blocky white areas are that aren't alphanumeric generated from the character ROM. Here's a pic of mine just powered up: http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/dscn1919.jpg --Chuck From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 31 19:24:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <26c11a6404083004275e8c05dd@mail.gmail.com> <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <8d0f4ee74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <16693.5799.421000.85351@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Philip" == Philip Pemberton writes: Philip> In message <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Paul Philip> Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Williams writes: >> Dan> I saw a few people moaning that their lk201 does not have an esc Dan> key, I have one connected to a vt320 and is has an esc key on Dan> F11. >> That's true. It's just in a nonsensical spot. Philip> Doesn't seem to work on my Linux box though - or at least not Philip> with Vim. F11 just dumps the text "" to the screen -- Philip> the code that the terminal is sending seems to be { [23~ Philip> }, not Ctrl-[ or . *sigh*. Looks like I need to tweak Philip> the terminfo database again (if I can work out what needs Philip> tweaking) :-/ You may need to set it in the settings of the terminal. At least I don't think it was limited to VT3xx and later... paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 31 19:18:29 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200409010028.UAA01283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a > complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on > them, will it copy all the blocks from the device, or am I going to > get messed around by the PC BIOS INT13 Well, I don't know Linux, but on NetBSD, once booting is done the BIOS should be completely out of the loop. I've moved disks between peecees and Suns (whose ROM code speaks SCSI native and thus doesn't have the C/H/S silliness peecees still haven't managed to get rid of) with no problems at all. > on the otherwise LBA device Um, LBA is an IDE thing, as I understand it, so it doesn't really apply (though the way SCSI addresses disk blocks is conceptually similar to what little I understand of LBA: it treats the disk as large one-dimensional array of blocks, indexed by consecutive integers). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 31 19:29:20 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <41350D89.AD40399F@compsys.to> Message-ID: <16693.6112.537000.198626@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: Jerome> I realize that you are probably not running Windows 98 SE, Jerome> but I have a Pentium III running Windows 98 SE (because I use Jerome> E11 to run PDP-11 programs and this is the ONLY operating Jerome> system which works) I've said this before.... Linux seems to work just fine for me, including hairy stuff like networking. paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 31 19:29:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <1047a6e6040831155066202bf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <1047a6e6040831155066202bf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200409010033.UAA01309@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Most complaints [about ebay] I think are just sour grapes. :-) > Sour I may be, but there were plenty of sources of neat computer > "junk" before eBay. Yes. And ebay has drained off a lot of good stuff that probably would otherwise have found its way into sane channels. (I don't consider ebay sane, and based on the flamefest that erupted last time I tried to explain why on a mailing list, I'll keep my explanations off list.) Of course, it's probably also saved a lot of good stuff that would otherwise have gone to the scrapper, so it's not unmixed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 19:33:17 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: eBay madness References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <1047a6e6040831155066202bf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004801c48fbb$477f7c10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Wayne" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Re: eBay madness > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:53:27 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > Most complaints I think are just sour grapes. :-) > > Sour I may be, but there were plenty of sources of neat computer > "junk" before eBay. And I liked those sources, thank-you very much. > They cultivated a sense of patience and appreciation. > > In my books, collecting old computer stuff has as much to do with the > hunt as anything else. If the hunt is turned into a keyword search > and instant gratification, it looses its appeal. Why? I think it's > because you learn a lot more about computers while hunting them down > than you do with them at your finger tips. > Yes, there were probably places to find old stuff before eBay came along , but there was no single place that had the quantity and variety of equipment with pictures! I never learned that much from my computer search besides how to search. My learning experience is from visiting forums and websites dedicated to the equipment I like, searching Google for conversations about specific hardware, software, and problems along with books, magazines and mailing lists like this one. Then there is the knowledge learned from hooking the things up and running something on them along with upgrades and other mods. I think you are confusing the thrill of the hunt with the fun of playing with the equipment itself. Some people love to tell a story about how they found a part for their classic car in an old barn, or how they found an expensive painting 300 miles away at a county auction, and then there are always the funny stories about things that happen on the way to pick something up. I don't see eBay being the one stop for everything store, quite a bit of my collection was found on newsgroups, forums, and some from people on this list. eBay is just a convenient source for some items that would take years to show up in your local searches if ever. Believe me I appreciate the deals I found on eBay and have the patience to wait for them to come along 6 months or even years after I started looking for them. I will also keep looking on the sources that have worked for me in the past. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 31 20:05:33 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <16693.5799.421000.85351@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <8d0f4ee74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16693.5799.421000.85351@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200408312005.33895.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 31 August 2004 19:24, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Philip" == Philip Pemberton writes: > > Philip> In message <16692.62687.315812.86666@gargle.gargle.HOWL> > Paul > > Philip> Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Williams writes: > > Dan> I saw a few people moaning that their lk201 does not have an > esc Dan> key, I have one connected to a vt320 and is has an esc key > on Dan> F11. > > >> That's true. It's just in a nonsensical spot. > > Philip> Doesn't seem to work on my Linux box though - or at least > not Philip> with Vim. F11 just dumps the text "" to the screen > -- Philip> the code that the terminal is sending seems to be { > [23~ Philip> }, not Ctrl-[ or . *sigh*. Looks like I need > to tweak Philip> the terminfo database again (if I can work out what > needs Philip> tweaking) :-/ > > You may need to set it in the settings of the terminal. At least I > don't think it was limited to VT3xx and later... On my VT220, F11 definately doesn't produce , and there's nowhere in the menus to change it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Aug 31 20:33:09 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! In-Reply-To: <200408312005.33895.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <8d0f4ee74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16693.5799.421000.85351@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200408312005.33895.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On my VT220, F11 definately doesn't produce , and there's nowhere > in the menus to change it. >From the VT220 Programmer Pocket Guide: Page 23 "Top Row Function Keys" Name on Legend Strip Generic Name VT200 Mode VT100, VT52 Modes . . . F11(ESC) F11 CSI 2 3 ~ ESC Where CSI is the 8-Bit equivalent of: ESC [ Note that only three of the F-Keys have VT100/52 modes: F11, F12(BS) and F13(LF) Also F1 thru F5 are local to the terminal and do not generate transmitted codes. Hope this helps a bit... Al Kossow's site should oughta have the VT220 docs or so I would imagine... Cheers John From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 31 21:25:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <1047a6e6040831155066202bf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:53:27 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > Most complaints I think are just sour grapes. :-) > > Sour I may be, but there were plenty of sources of neat computer > "junk" before eBay. And I liked those sources, thank-you very much. > They cultivated a sense of patience and appreciation. > > In my books, collecting old computer stuff has as much to do with the > hunt as anything else. If the hunt is turned into a keyword search > and instant gratification, it looses its appeal. Why? I think it's > because you learn a lot more about computers while hunting them down > than you do with them at your finger tips. Well put! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 31 21:25:44 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: archiving Heath H8/H89 hard-sectored disks In-Reply-To: <200408290625.CAA06564@ss10.danlan.com> References: <200408290625.CAA06564@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040831212414.106932a8@pc> At 01:25 AM 8/29/2004, Dan Lanciani wrote: >I've come up with a way to read Heath hard-sectored disks with a 1797-style >controller (with some modifications). Nice to see you on this list, Dan! I remember your advice from the BAWUG list. In fact, I seem to remember referring someone from this list to you - someone looking for old ISA wireless gear. Dan's a clear expert on old Aironet wireless gear and apparently old Heath equipment! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 31 21:20:25 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:39 2005 Subject: Near-classic: Win95 beta CDs In-Reply-To: <001701c48e8f$3959caf0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <001701c48e8f$3959caf0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040831211725.106953c8@pc> At 07:45 AM 8/30/2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Thanks. Actually after talking to John Faust last night I found the >disk...it was a "Microsoft Games Sampler" disk that came out after the W95 >beta. As I was telling Rich, I was an MSDN subscriber back in that day and my packrat tendencies mean all those CDs are still sitting in the basement. I was involved in the 3D realm, so I probably have a number of early DirectX and Chromeffects betas. Those CDs are there along with a zillion other 3D-related (CAD, game development, 3D clip art, toy 3D packages, Hollywood-class 3D packages, etc.) I may have unloaded a few on eBay, but not many. - John From pzachary at sasquatch.com Tue Aug 31 20:38:27 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:44 2005 Subject: S.F. Bay Area -- PDP-11 HW available -- Disks and Tape for 11/44 In-Reply-To: <41331C58.4000301@pacbell.net> References: <41331C58.4000301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <57542.216.218.236.136.1094002707.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> thanks for the heads up, snd I'd be glad to trade a micro pdp-11 for the 44, would you prefer a 11/23 in a ba23 deskside enclosure or a ba11 rackmount enclosure? I'll try to get up to rescue the tape drive and perhaps at least the HDAs from the RA81s. Pavl_ > I was up at Mike Quinn's on Saturday, and inquired about classic > computers. After mentioning the PDP-11 by name, the guy there > (Maurice) pointed me to an 11/44 he had in the back. The racks were > already spoken for, and the contents had been pulled out and were > sitting > face-down on the floor. There was an 11/44 CPU, two RA-81 disk > drives, and a 9-track tape drive, a TU-80 or TU-81, I believe. > He was willing to let it go pretty cheap, $100 for the CPU and > RA-81s, or $50 for the CPU. He thought the motors in the tape > drive would sell for $25 each, so he wanted at least $50 for > that. Seeing the lack of respect this poor old machine was getting > (dumped on the floor to salvage the rack), and having some space > in my trunk, I snapped up the CPU without much further thought. > > I figure a collector should have a shot at those drives before > Quinn's sells them to a scrapper or someone who wants to strip them for > parts. I don't have the space for them, nor enough interest in the > later 11's to justify renting any more on their account. I could > possibly be talked out of the CPU. I'd certainly take a smaller Q-bus > '11 in trade. Heck, a convincing promise of a good home with some > happy peripherals to talk to and reimbursement of the $50 I spent would > probably do. :) > > --Bill From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Tue Aug 31 22:16:36 2004 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:44 2005 Subject: Teledisk problem In-Reply-To: <200408290625.CAA06564@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: Maybe someone with experience using Teledisk can help me with a problem. I have an 8" drive connected to an IBM PC/AT floppy controller, with the 34 to 50 pin adapter. I think it's working correctly when making a file from a disk, but I can't be sure because I can't recreate the disk. It gets to 32 sectors and can't find anymore. I have a similar problem trying to use Anadisk to format an 8" floppy. I set it to 48 sectors, but it only writes out to 32 sectors. Anyone ever see this kind of problem and know how to solve it? Thanks, Richard Lynch