From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu May 1 00:26:00 2003 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:23 2005 Subject: Yet another Tower of Babel (was Re: Yet another forum - MSDSite.com) In-Reply-To: <20030430232829.GJ2136@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <3EAE5E8F.11155.150B0E@localhost> <3EB00E17.2060209@dragonsweb.org> <20030430232829.GJ2136@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3EB0AF79.7040503@dragonsweb.org> R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe James B. DiGriz, from writings of Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 01:55:35PM -0400: > >>Great to see more vintage and classic forums being listed. The only >>thing I hate to see is the fragmentation. > > > Yes, I know what you mean. If these new discussion groups each had > some particular specialty, then I could see a reason why various > classic computer collectors would use them. However, since they > don't, I can't see the point in going through the extra work that it > would take to access them. > If they shared articles/posts via RDF or XML feeds, that lessens the work, significantly. Pooling articles reduces exclusivity and to some extent individuality, of course, but at the cost of boosting the overall signal, promoting the development of communities of interest, etc. which benefits everyone in the long run. If the object is making money with the site, based strictly on the editorial content, then it's easy to imagine the interest of the site owner to be short-sighted here, though, or at least that's how the short-sighted will be expected to see it. I'd say that the much better overall content raises the floor for everyone, in most situations, and that site design, other features, relevance and value of associated advertising and merchandising, etc. will have more to do with the final profitability of the site, if that's the goal or justification. Compare IM, ICQ, or IRC vs. a purely local chat system for an equivalent effect on content. >>Usenet, FTN-style and Qwk networks on BBS'es, etc. used to be able to >>bring together scattered groups of people and individuals all over the >>world in a non-centralized, non-single-point-of-failure way. Web-based >>forums have really not tried to go there yet, in part because some are > > > For one thing, web-based forums are a blasted nuisance to use. > Browsers crash, and then an entire message is gone. If I can't use > emacs, or some other text editor that's reasonably useful, such as vi, > or even ed, then there's not much point to using a computer for > writing. The multi-line text-area fields in forms on the 'web are > nowhere near being a reasonable substitute for a good text editor. > Browsers crashing is all many people know, however. All the marketing in the last 8 years or so is strictly for the 'net as Web. I prefer text myself for discussions, period, but hardly anyone is trained on a command line anymore, even at the college level. Actually this has it's advantages sometimes, like if you have to use the library's computer and need to work around CIPA mandated filters, etc. Usually it's just a matter of the proxy settings in Exploiter, access to which will typically be disabled. But as we all know, there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you want or need to raise the LCD, you have to make yourself accessible to it. It doesn't and needn't make older, more fundamental methods obsolete. > >>commercial and sometimes proprietary, with excessive numbers of PHB's > > > What's a PHB? Sounds like a nasty type of chemical to avoid. > Pointy-Haired Boss, as in "Dilbert". > >>and lawyers making policy decisions instead of the moderators and/or > > > A good reason to avoid them. Is it just me, or does it give others > the creeps when they see user agreements telling them that they can't > have their first-ammendment guaranteed right to free speech on the > 'net, whenever corporate droids, politically correct university > bureaucrats and ambulance chasers (lawyers), etc. get involved with > the 'net? > I didn't mean to knock lawyers or suits in general here. They're just the instruments of bad politics and absurd premises being taken to logical conclusions in this case. Don't shoot the messenger, in other words, though there are plenty who have put their hearts into it and have contributed to the absurdities and badness, especially when they end up in legislatures and on the bench. I should note that gating a web forum raises several spam-related issues, which a lot of people tend to get bent out of shape about. Also there is the matter of having to modify the actual body of an article if it includes advertising and/or html, when sending to mailing lists that forbid such, or to Usenet, where it's just not appropriate. And so on. It's not just a matter of jealous proprietorship.or whipped dogs worried about the next shareholders meeting. jbdigriz From fm.arnold at gmx.net Thu May 1 09:33:00 2003 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model 100 technical questions Message-ID: Hi all, I got a TRS80 Model 100 in and need some technical info: -what is the polarity of the DC-input on the socket? -Is a filtered 6 volt DC voltage ok or has it to be stabilised? -I found lots of recources on http://www.club100.org/ even a technical manual, this however does not adress this DC input. Thanks, Frank From anheier at owt.com Thu May 1 09:46:00 2003 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm & Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster Message-ID: I have a fair quantity of the following: P21256-12 MCM6256BP12 Lh21256-12 MTC4c1024-8 KM41C1000BP-8 thanks Norm snip: >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:37:28 -0700 >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >From: Geoff Reed >Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >anyone have any of these floating around? I can't believe I gave 'em all >away and now I need to populate a laserjet IIID memory board :( From mr at jasongullickson.com Thu May 1 10:17:01 2003 From: mr at jasongullickson.com (Jason J. Gullickson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model 100 technical questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <153D0FAADC2C90459D202D16D24A94AE015EF738@webmail.inacom-msn.com> Club100 is the best source I've found, however I run my M100 using a cheapo brick from Radio Shack that lets you select from like four or five different voltages, so I can't imagine that it needs anything fancy (although the battery life is pretty amazing without an adapter). -----Original Message----- From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Frank Arnold Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:32 AM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: TRS80 Model 100 technical questions Hi all, I got a TRS80 Model 100 in and need some technical info: -what is the polarity of the DC-input on the socket? -Is a filtered 6 volt DC voltage ok or has it to be stabilised? -I found lots of recources on http://www.club100.org/ even a technical manual, this however does not adress this DC input. Thanks, Frank From design.fort at ns.sympatico.ca Thu May 1 11:37:00 2003 From: design.fort at ns.sympatico.ca (The Design Fort DTP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be interested to learn more about the Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. So far I only found pictures and specifications on the net. Is there a website that actually explained how this machine worked and/or what it could/can do. Even more are there informations about "programs" that this machine could run? I have to admit that the "analog" times of the computer age was a bit before my time, but I really would love to learn more about it. Herbert From jss at subatomix.com Thu May 1 11:39:24 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: Fwd: Stuff available for pickup in Stockholm, Sweden Message-ID: <20030501164246.GF18204@subatomix.com> Reply to the original author, not me. ----- Forwarded message from Joacim Melin ----- Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:18:23 +0200 From: "Joacim Melin" To: Subject: Stuff available for pickup in Stockholm, Sweden Hi all, time to get rid of some oldies. This is available for collection in Stockholm, Sweden, for free : 1. Apple II Euro+. Works great but there is no accessories with it. It runs on 220v at the moment. 2. Deskstation Raptor3. Works great. Comes with : Full Tower Case Alpha 21164 UniFlex Motherboard 4 PCI / 3 ISA slots Dual SCSI II ports 2 serial / 1 parallel ports 1.44 Floppy Drive Dual SCSI II Interfaces Please let me know if you are interested in any of this, otherwise it will go to some landfill instead. Joacim ---------------------------------------- who > joacim melin how > joacim(a)melin.org where > http://z80.org ---------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Jeffrey Sharp From design.fort at ns.sympatico.ca Thu May 1 11:47:00 2003 From: design.fort at ns.sympatico.ca (The Design Fort DTP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: paperclip computer project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think somebody from this list contacted me regarding my paperclip computer project. Unfortunately I had a problem with my email-server, so this email got deleted. Maybe this person could contact me again? Thanks Herbert Computer Museum of Nova Scotia From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu May 1 12:16:01 2003 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501171428.65942.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> there is tons of stuff on the net, try http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/ for good introductions, all analog computer are basically the same, the biggest difference is how many op amps they have, and that limits what you can do. Each amp can be configured to either add, substract, multiply, integrate etc by hooking up the appropriate feedbacks (all the wires you see hanging off them, the gains are set by variable resistors on the unit, the knobs you see on the EC-1). They are used to simulate dynamic systems, like an aircraft control system for instance (a few hundred amps), or a weight attached to a spring (a few amps) --- The Design Fort DTP wrote: > I would be interested to learn more about the > Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. > So far I only found pictures and specifications on > the net. Is there a > website that actually explained how this machine > worked and/or what it > could/can do. > Even more are there informations about "programs" > that this machine could > run? > > I have to admit that the "analog" times of the > computer age was a bit before > my time, but I really would love to learn more about > it. > > Herbert The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From zmerch at 30below.com Thu May 1 12:24:01 2003 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model 100 technical questions In-Reply-To: <153D0FAADC2C90459D202D16D24A94AE015EF738@webmail.inacom-ms n.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030501131558.02cc57d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jason J. Gullickson may have mentioned these words: >Club100 is the best source I've found, however I run my M100 using a >cheapo brick from Radio Shack that lets you select from like four or >five different voltages, so I can't imagine that it needs anything fancy >(although the battery life is pretty amazing without an adapter). Just had a couple messages from Rick Hanson this morning... I've known him (thru email) for nearly a decade, and it's damn hard to find a) a nicer guy in general, or b) anyone more knowlegable about the inner tickings of Kyocera-OEMed laptops (including the Tandy Models 100/102/200; NEC 8201a; Olivetti M10 & friends...) I also have a mailing list that's available WRT these machines, you can sub by emailing m100-subscribe@list.30below.com -- there's almost 200 people on the mailing list, so there's quite a following there... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 1 12:29:01 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:24 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030501171428.65942.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2003, steve wrote: > there is tons of stuff on the net, try > > http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/ > > for good introductions, all analog computer are > basically the same, the biggest difference is how many > op amps they have, and that limits what you can do. > Each amp can be configured to either add, substract, > multiply, integrate etc by hooking up the appropriate > feedbacks (all the wires you see hanging off them, the > gains are set by variable resistors on the unit, the > knobs you see on the EC-1). They are used to simulate > dynamic systems, like an aircraft control system for > instance (a few hundred amps), or a weight attached to > a spring (a few amps) Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very different.... PCW From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 12:33:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030501171428.65942.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030501173133.87297.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- steve wrote: > there is tons of stuff on the net, try > > http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/ > > ... the biggest difference is how many op amps they have... > to simulate dynamic systems, like an aircraft control system > for instance (a few hundred amps), or a weight attached to > a spring (a few amps) I was skimming this and read "Amperes" for "op amps" in the above. My thought train derailed at the visualization of a multi-hundred Ampere circuit to simulate an aircraft control system. Good thing I wasn't drinking Dr. Pepper... :-) -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 12:35:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501173309.86443.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. > > For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very different.... I have an idea of how an analog (electronic) computer would work (compared to a mechanical analog computer - that's voodoo with cams)... How does a resistive sheet computer work? In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 1 12:47:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: DATA I/O SetSite module Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030501134552.5f972930@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know where I can find a PDF copy of the manual for this? Joe From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 1 13:23:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305011821.LAA19042@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "The Design Fort DTP" > >I would be interested to learn more about the Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. >So far I only found pictures and specifications on the net. Is there a >website that actually explained how this machine worked and/or what it >could/can do. >Even more are there informations about "programs" that this machine could >run? > >I have to admit that the "analog" times of the computer age was a bit before >my time, but I really would love to learn more about it. > >Herbert > Hi The Heath kit has 9 op-amps that are connected such that they are all inverting. It is intended to primarily model things that are linear systems but one can add such things as diodes to make limiting functions. They do this for one of the example programs to put a bouncing ball on an oscilloscope screen. Other nonlinear functions can be added. Although, one can model things with differentiators, these are generally not very stable and tend to require more dynamic range than integrators. Most linear systems can be described as a differential equation. If one integrates the equation a number of times, one can remove all the differentials and be left with a number of integrals and initial constants. These can be quickly scaled and represented by resistors and capacitors. This modeling method can solve quite complex problems. Things like aircraft controls to auto suspension systems can be modeled this way. I had a friend describe how it was used to make rail cars that wouldn't oscillate at the same frequency as the spacing of the track joints, over normal speed ranges. One can imagine what would happen to the load and car if it were increasing the oscillation on each track joint it crossed. I currently have a EC-1 but a while back, I needed to solve a control system problem with an oven. There were several factors that effected the temperature and I needed to make sure that the system could handle these changes without oscillating or over shooting. I found an analog modeling program called TutSim that I used to understand the system. This is just like using a real analog computer except it used discrete processing to simulate the analog world. There are potential problems doing this and one needs to understand the possible issues. If you have a spice program, you can build up the equivalent of a EC-1 in software and see how it works. It wasn't until the late 80's someplace that digital computers became fast enough to replace the simpler op-amps for solving these kinds of problems. In many cases, the analog machines still have better speed/accuracy tradeoffs. My biggest complaint with the EC-1 is that they needed more binding post for the common ( 0 Volts ). Dwight From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 1 14:02:00 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030501173309.86443.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. > > > > For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very different.... > > I have an idea of how an analog (electronic) computer would work > (compared to a mechanical analog computer - that's voodoo with cams)... > > How does a resistive sheet computer work? The one that I saw had a large (maybe 2 foot square) conductive sheet (looked like carbon filled rubber) with a grid printed on it. There were sets of probes for introducing potential "hills" in the sheet and other probes for measuring the potential at any desired point on the sheet. My memory fails me here but ISTR that some applications were determining equipotential lines about odd shapes (using a custom shaped probe) and some kinds of thermal problems. > > In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers > stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? > > -ethan > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > Peter Wallace From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 1 14:06:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: DATA I/O SetSite module Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030501134552.5f8f60c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know where I can find a PDF copy of the manual for this? Joe From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu May 1 14:15:00 2003 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030501134552.5f972930@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030501191336.54229.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, it's true, the pens for the TRS-80 PC-2 plotter are the same as the TRS-80 CGP-115, and the same as the Atari 1020 plotter. I recently bought some from http://myatari.com . Of course, I haven't gotten my plotter working yet - a cracked gear, of course. Steve. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu May 1 14:20:01 2003 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501191901.35824.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. > > For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very > different.... > You typically use resistive sheets with op amps no? I just look at resistive sheets as an accessory of a analog computer like the EC-1, just like caps, discrete resistors and wires are accessories. But can I get a bunch of resistors and a power supply and call it an analog computer, sure I can, I guess I should of said "typical commercially available widely used analog computers" > PCW The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 1 14:35:01 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030501191901.35824.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2003, steve wrote: > --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. > > > > For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very > > different.... > > > > You typically use resistive sheets with op amps no? I > just look at resistive sheets as an accessory of a > analog computer like the EC-1, just like caps, > discrete resistors and wires are accessories. The resistive sheet devices are a whole different class of device and do not need OP amps at all to do "calculations" > > But can I get a bunch of resistors and a power supply > and call it an analog computer, sure I can, I guess I > should of said "typical commercially available widely > used analog computers" Resistive sheet computers were sophisticated commercial devices, not a "bunch of resistors" I have seen a couple of them so I doubt that they are all that obscure... > > > > PCW > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > Peter Wallace From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu May 1 14:48:00 2003 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming References: Message-ID: <3EB17A47.4020103@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Is it time to repost the story of the 'Danger Implosives' sign :-) Yes!! -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 15:05:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. In-Reply-To: <20030501191336.54229.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030501200345.7355.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- steven wrote: > Yes, it's true, the pens for the TRS-80 PC-2 plotter > are the same as the TRS-80 CGP-115, and the same as > the Atari 1020 plotter. > > I recently bought some from http://myatari.com . Right. > Of course, I haven't gotten my plotter working yet - a > cracked gear, of course. I've written to them - they have dozens of plotters with cracked gears. :-( -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 1 15:23:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305012019.NAA19115@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >--- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >> Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. >> >> For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very different.... > >I have an idea of how an analog (electronic) computer would work >(compared to a mechanical analog computer - that's voodoo with cams)... > >How does a resistive sheet computer work? > >In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers >stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? > >-ethan >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com > Hi Another type of analog computers include mechanical ones. During WW2, they used really complicated mechanical fire control computer. One would input range, bearing, projectile and charge. It would also take into account ship roll, speed and coriolis effect for that target. Gear ratios would make coefficient multipliers. They had variable speed transmissions to make multipliers. Differentials made adders and subtracters. Dwight From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Thu May 1 16:02:00 2003 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tlindner@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: VT420 Terminal for sale Message-ID: <5430461.1051822850691.JavaMail.nobody@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Digital VT420 (+ keyboard) for sale For pick-up in San Francisco, California, USA, only. 12 inch amber monitor, tested, no burn-in, a little dusty. Setup screen says: VT420 AV 1.4, Copyright 1989 DEC. If interested please make an offer. -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu May 1 16:11:00 2003 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501210922.11903.qmail@web12404.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > You typically use resistive sheets with op amps > no? I > > just look at resistive sheets as an accessory of a > > analog computer like the EC-1, just like caps, > > discrete resistors and wires are accessories. > > > The resistive sheet devices are a whole different > class of device and > do not need OP amps at all to do "calculations" > Well yes, resistive sheets devices can be used alone, but I would call that implementation a calculator, similar to a slide rule. Resistive sheets were also commonly used to enhance the computing capabilities of op amp based analog computers. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 1 16:12:34 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <200305012019.NAA19115@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2003, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > >--- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > >> Actually all analog computers are _not_ the same. > >> > >> For example: Resistive Sheet computers are very different.... > > > >I have an idea of how an analog (electronic) computer would work > >(compared to a mechanical analog computer - that's voodoo with cams)... > > > >How does a resistive sheet computer work? > > > >In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers > >stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? > > > >-ethan > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > Hi > Another type of analog computers include mechanical ones. > During WW2, they used really complicated mechanical fire > control computer. One would input range, bearing, projectile > and charge. It would also take into account ship roll, speed > and coriolis effect for that target. > Gear ratios would make coefficient multipliers. They had variable > speed transmissions to make multipliers. Differentials made adders > and subtracters. > Dwight > Not to mention inertial guidance systems with ball+disk integrators etc Peter Wallace From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 1 16:26:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. In-Reply-To: <20030501200345.7355.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030501191336.54229.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030501172421.3a27de1a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:03 PM 5/1/03 -0700, you wrote: >--- steven wrote: >> Yes, it's true, the pens for the TRS-80 PC-2 plotter >> are the same as the TRS-80 CGP-115, and the same as >> the Atari 1020 plotter. >> >> I recently bought some from http://myatari.com . > >Right. > >> Of course, I haven't gotten my plotter working yet - a >> cracked gear, of course. > >I've written to them - they have dozens of plotters with cracked >gears. :-( Have any of you tried to take the gear off the shaft, squeeze it shut and somehow glue or "weld" (ultrasonic welding, perhaps) it closed and then re-install it? FWIW I had a CGP-115 years ago. It split the gear also. I tried to buy one from Radio Shack but they wanted me to pay their technician for an hour's labor to "verify" that the gear was bad. RIGHT! That was THE last time that I ever bought ANYTHING from TRS! I later ran into someone that was a regional manger for TRS, I told him about the trouble that I'd had tying to get the gear. He ordered a package of six of them for me at no charge. So the gears are (were!) available. I used one of the gears and never used the others but I have no idea what happened to the rest of them. Joe > >-ethan >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu May 1 17:16:01 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. References: <20030501191336.54229.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.16.20030501172421.3a27de1a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <022f01c3102f$0d1fc8c0$0100000a@milkyway> Joe wrote: > Have any of you tried to take the gear off the shaft, squeeze it > shut and somehow glue or "weld" (ultrasonic welding, perhaps) it > closed and then re-install it? If someone wants to send me one or two plotters with bad drive gears, I'd be willing to have a go at repairing them. My technique involves repairing the damage with Araldite (epoxy adhesive - sets rock hard) and then putting a small (#10) staple in across the damaged section. The staple is heated with either a soldering iron or a small "night light" candle (as used for aromatherapy burners) and is then pushed in across the damaged section of the gear. Two are fitted across each cracked section, one on each side. Like I said, if someone wants to send me a dead plotter, I'll have a go at fixing it. I'd be tempted to take a few 10ths of a mm off the inside of the hole for the shaft that the gear fits onto. If they're cracking, the shaft is probably too big for the hole. Enlarging the hole very slightly should reduce the pressure a bit and hopefully make the gear last a few more years that it would have done if it were not modified. > FWIW I had a CGP-115 years ago. It split the gear also. I tried > to buy one from Radio Shack but they wanted me to pay their > technician for an hour's labor to "verify" that the gear was bad. I know that frustration only too well... > I later ran into someone that was a regional manger for TRS, I told > him about the trouble that I'd had tying to get the gear. He ordered > a package of six of them for me at no charge. So the gears are > (were!) available. I used one of the gears and never used the others > but I have no idea what happened to the rest of them. I'll give you $5 or so for the remaining five if you can find them. To be distributed among anyone on the classiccmp list for my cost only. Alternatively, can someone get the RS part number and annoy the salesdroids at their local store with a "Can you get this in for me" request? Living in the UK makes it quite difficult to get stuff that Radioshack are/were selling. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 1 17:24:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: steve "Re: Heathkit EC-1" (May 1, 10:14) References: <20030501171428.65942.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10305012320.ZM13828@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 1, 10:14, steve wrote: > there is tons of stuff on the net, try > > http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/ > > for good introductions, all analog computer are > basically the same, the biggest difference is how many > op amps they have, and that limits what you can do. While that's true for most modern *electronic* analog(ue) computers, it's not a good generalisation. What about things like Vannevar Bush's differential analysers, gun directors, Norden bombsights, various electro-pneumatic or hydraulic computers, or the G-star analog "computer" used by CalTech at Mt Palomar? I seem to be in pedant mode today (as Ethan's discovered, possibly) and I couldn't resist pointing out some alternatives :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 1 17:38:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. In-Reply-To: "Philip Pemberton" "Re: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found." (May 1, 23:13) References: <20030501191336.54229.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.16.20030501172421.3a27de1a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <022f01c3102f$0d1fc8c0$0100000a@milkyway> Message-ID: <10305012336.ZM13846@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 1, 23:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > If someone wants to send me one or two plotters with bad drive gears, I'd be > willing to have a go at repairing them. My technique involves repairing the > damage with Araldite (epoxy adhesive - sets rock hard) and then putting a > small (#10) staple in across the damaged section. Er, the gear we've been discussing is very small -- about 3mm overall diameter, roughly the size of the winder knob on a small ladies wristwatch! MUCH smaller than a small staple, in fact the bore's hardly bigger than the staple diameter :-) Anyway, Araldite doesn't stick to waxy plastic like these gears :-( > I'd be tempted to take a few 10ths of a mm off the inside of the hole > for the shaft that the gear fits onto. If they're cracking, the shaft is > probably too big for the hole. Enlarging the hole by 0.1mm would make it spin on the shaft :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 1 18:56:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 30, 3 09:50:13 pm Message-ID: > > Is it time to repost the story of the 'Danger Implosives' sign :-) > > A good story is always worthy of repetition! Yes, but this is not a good story :-). However, here goes. I was taking a DEC computer (I can't remember if it was the DECmate2 or the Rainbow, it dowsn't matter) from Bristol to London by train. I'd checked that such things -- in particular, CRTs -- were allowed on trains, and discovered that portable TVs were certainly OK (and the VR201 has much the same CRT as a portable TV). I but the LK201 keyboard on end in the inside pocket of my raincoat. The cables, etc, in the other inside pocket. The CPU box under one arm. And I carried the LK201 by its handle in my other hand. While I was proving I could do this, somebody remarked on the similarity in shape between the VR201 (carried like that) and some kind of mine/bomb. This was too much to resist, so I got a red pen and made up some 'Danger Implosives' signs which I stuch to the sides of the VR201. This was before the current panic over terrorism, of course. Thus labelled, I carried the machine onto the train and to London. I got some very odd looks ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 1 19:02:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model 100 technical questions In-Reply-To: from "Frank Arnold" at May 1, 3 04:31:58 pm Message-ID: > Hi all, > > I got a TRS80 Model 100 in and need some technical info: > > -what is the polarity of the DC-input on the socket? According to the schematic in the printed Technical Manual, the connector is centre -ve. > > -Is a filtered 6 volt DC voltage ok or has it to be stabilised? The mains adapter replaces (electrically) the 4 internal AA cells when it's connected (there's a switch in the input conenctor that disconnects the internal battery +ve terminal when you put the adapter plug in). Therefore, the adapter doesn't need to be well regulated (since the batteries aren't). There's a fairly complex DC-DC converter on the main PCB to produce +5V and -5V from the batteries, and that provides regulation too. I think the official mains adapter (at least the one sold in the UK) was just a transformer, rectifier and smoothing capacitor. However, I'd not want to apply a voltage wildly different from 6V to the machine. It will probably be OK, but I don't fancy rebuilding that DC-DC converter if it's not :-) -tony From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu May 1 19:36:00 2003 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Fw: Germany: Free RS/6000 ! Message-ID: <006801c31042$ec79ff50$7f00a8c0@midorirose.net> Saw this on spamnet news... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Ebinger" Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:44 AM Subject: Germany: Free RS/6000 ! > Hello! > > Is anybody near Karlsruhe interested in RS/6000 > Model 320, 340, 360 and some other Models? > > Look at the Newsgroup ka.markt.computer > The University in Karlsruhe offers RS/6000 ! > > > Best regards > > Frank Ebinger From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu May 1 21:02:01 2003 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 May 2003 13:29:44 -0400 . Message-ID: In message , The Design Fort DTP wri tes: >I would be interested to learn more about the Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. >So far I only found pictures and specifications on the net. Is there a >website that actually explained how this machine worked and/or what it >could/can do. >Even more are there informations about "programs" that this machine could >run? > >I have to admit that the "analog" times of the computer age was a bit before >my time, but I really would love to learn more about it. Others have already posted some good information on this. However, I thought I'd mention a little thing I wrote up as a handout for a class on the history of computing I taught several years ago. You can find the html version at: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/r/drbrians/analog/analog.html and a PDF file at: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/r/drbrians/analog/analog.pdf It's not an in-depth treatment by any means, but it does give a run down on the basic math behind how they work. Brian L. Stuart From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 1 22:25:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Great Finds Todayin Houston Message-ID: <02a801c3105a$3999aee0$7a0add40@oemcomputer> I picked up the following items today while searching the thrifts: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT cpu only no KB or monitor with it. HP Visualize C180 cpu only no KB or monitor. HP apollo Series 700 product # A2286A. TRS-80 micro computer system Catalog # 26-01006-G. No monitor or power supply with it. Apple IIc Plus cpu only. Tandy 1000SL cpu only. NBA JAM cassette/cartridge for the Super Famicom. Panasonic R E A L FZ-10 3DO console. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 1 22:38:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: DOS 1.10 goes for over $100 Message-ID: <02b001c3105b$f6b1c660$7a0add40@oemcomputer> Check it out at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2724791904 From marvin at rain.org Fri May 2 00:45:01 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: DOS 1.10 goes for over $100 References: <02b001c3105b$f6b1c660$7a0add40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EB20578.9C5FC38A@rain.org> Looks to me like there were no bids on the $185 starting bid/$195 BIN. Keys wrote: > > Check it out at > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2724791904 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 00:54:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. In-Reply-To: <022f01c3102f$0d1fc8c0$0100000a@milkyway> Message-ID: <20030502055210.67982.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Pemberton wrote: > If someone wants to send me one or two plotters with bad drive gears, > I'd be willing to have a go at repairing them. My technique involves > repairing the damage with Araldite (epoxy adhesive - sets rock hard) > and then putting a small (#10) staple in across the damaged section. I have a number of NOS plotter engines with nearly all (pre) cracked gears. I will be happy to loan you one, but I think you will find that your technique is not suitable for such a small gear. The diameter of the staple wire is about the same as the thickness of the plastic between the bottom of the groove and the bore. There are two gears per engine - X and Y. Same size. Same problem. One on the left, one on the right. I have used similar techniques (with success) fixing Atari joystick actuators (I used to get the joysticks for free from overenthusiastic friends with 2600s) You would have to get the plastic to mate up rather closely where the crack is - the "problem" is not that the shaft slips in the broken gear; it's that the gap causes the gear not to mesh with the driven gear and the gear train binds, preventing X or Y motion. > I'd be tempted to take a few 10ths of a mm off the inside of the hole > for the shaft that the gear fits onto. If they're cracking, the shaft is > probably too big for the hole. Enlarging the hole very slightly should > reduce the pressure a bit and hopefully make the gear last a few more > years that it would have done if it were not modified. The shaft diameter is 1/20" (1.27mm). If you enlarge the bore by 7%-14% (one or two tenths of a mm) off the inside of the gear, it will freewheel and fly off the shaft then get lost in the carpet. I have some closeup pictures I can e-mail to someone (no ftp access from the machine they are on) :-( The relative sizes of the gears are visible, as are the cracks. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jss at subatomix.com Fri May 2 01:08:00 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030502061357.GA21990@subatomix.com> On Thursday, May 1, 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > I got a red pen and made up some 'Danger Implosives' signs which I stuch > to the sides of the VR201. This was before the current panic over > terrorism, of course. Thus labelled, I carried the machine onto the train > and to London. I got some very odd looks ;-) When I was a bit younger I read PC/Computing. Penn Jillette used to write the back page, which I loved to read. In one issue, he recommended that people put commands in their AUTOEXEC.BAT file such that their computer would count down from 10 upon bootup, as if preparing to detonate. He suggested that this be done to have fun with the security people at airports who ask you to turn on your laptop. I wouldn't try this today! :-) I loved the back page of PC/C. As my special homage to it, at every job I've had, I have introduced the term 'Thurman unit' into the corporate vocabulary. Anybody else here remember what a Thurman unit is? -- Jeffrey Sharp From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 2 01:34:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming References: <20030502061357.GA21990@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <000c01c31073$cfcb5a80$0500fea9@game> No idea, does it have somthing to do with Uma Thurman which he mentions alot about in those articles? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Sharp" To: "ClassicCmp Mailing List" Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:13 AM Subject: Re: More DEC Stuff Coming > On Thursday, May 1, 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > I got a red pen and made up some 'Danger Implosives' signs which I stuch > > to the sides of the VR201. This was before the current panic over > > terrorism, of course. Thus labelled, I carried the machine onto the train > > and to London. I got some very odd looks ;-) > > When I was a bit younger I read PC/Computing. Penn Jillette used to write > the back page, which I loved to read. In one issue, he recommended that > people put commands in their AUTOEXEC.BAT file such that their computer > would count down from 10 upon bootup, as if preparing to detonate. He > suggested that this be done to have fun with the security people at airports > who ask you to turn on your laptop. I wouldn't try this today! :-) > > I loved the back page of PC/C. As my special homage to it, at every job > I've had, I have introduced the term 'Thurman unit' into the corporate > vocabulary. Anybody else here remember what a Thurman unit is? > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp From du651 at freenet.carleton.ca Fri May 2 02:06:00 2003 From: du651 at freenet.carleton.ca (Joseph Ballantyne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: wanted: documentation for IBM 3164 terminal Message-ID: <200305020704.h42746I21389@freenet10.carleton.ca> I want these IBM publications (especially A18-2317): GA18-2317 3164 ASCII Color Display Station Description GA18-2319 3164 ASCII Color Display Station Setup Instructions SY18-2118 3164 ASCII Color Display Station Repair Center Maintenance Info SY18-2120 3164 ASCII Display Station Repair Center Maintenance Information GA18-2563 ALA User's Guide for 3163/3164 GA18-2720 3163 and 3164 Emulating IBM Terminals and DEC VT100/52 Terminals GA18-2736 3163/3164 Enhanced Emulation of TeleVideo 950 I have A18-2318 so don't want more of that, but if you know of other 3164 publications that I don't know about, do please tell. I'm in Ottawa ON Canada. As far as I know, international shipping into Canada is not practical, so I'm interested in antiques that happen to be already in Canada. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 2 04:31:01 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: large disk platters? In-Reply-To: <3E55538A.D73AD064@eagle.ca> References: <20030220180001.20389.92021.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030502014753.00a59d90@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 05:15 PM 2/20/03 -0500, Murray McCullough wrote: >Hi Jules, > To my knowledge the largest hard drive platter was 24". IBM the > inventor may have produced >an experimental platter of ~1 m as a demonstration project to management >and maybe these platters >were 'sold' or distributed to IBM employees? Going though my old but still unread email, so sorry for reply to old thread. I posted it to this list maybe a couple years ago, but a legacy hard drive supplier I used to visit had a 42" platter on his wall from some place he actually worked at himself, and kept when the rest got scrapped (a 42" aluminum platter does have some scrap value). If somebody is still real curious I might be able to find the old post I made. RE seeing the data on the platter I have a spray can of fine iron particals, spray it on and with a microscope or just a loupe quite a bit (har har) can be seen. From david at bhaermandegruyl.org Fri May 2 06:39:00 2003 From: david at bhaermandegruyl.org (David de Gruyl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals Message-ID: <20030502113733.GA7003@ra.bhaermandegruyl.org> I was looking around on the internet (mainly decdocs.org and linked sites, as well as google) and I was unable to locate scanned manuals for the Vaxstation 4000/90. If anyone has a link to such documents, I would appreciate it. My problems revolve around a newly aquired machine which does not appear to be giving me console access over the MMJ port in the rear of the box. As I said, this is a newly aquired machine, and I have not really taken it apart yet, but the manuals would be helpful in any event. David -- David de Gruyl From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Fri May 2 09:25:01 2003 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals References: <20030502113733.GA7003@ra.bhaermandegruyl.org> Message-ID: <3EB27DDF.7D7756A6@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> David de Gruyl wrote: > > I was looking around on the internet (mainly decdocs.org and linked > sites, as well as google) and I was unable to locate scanned manuals for > the Vaxstation 4000/90. If anyone has a link to such documents, I would > appreciate it. Manx shows that the Owner's Guide and Service Information are online: http://vt100.net/manx/search?cp=1;q=vaxstation+4000;num=20;on=0 - Paul From david at bhaermandegruyl.org Fri May 2 10:11:00 2003 From: david at bhaermandegruyl.org (David de Gruyl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals In-Reply-To: <3EB27DDF.7D7756A6@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> References: <20030502113733.GA7003@ra.bhaermandegruyl.org> <3EB27DDF.7D7756A6@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030502150937.GA19264@ra.bhaermandegruyl.org> * on [03-05-02 10:27] Paul Williams wrote: >David de Gruyl wrote: >> >> I was looking around on the internet (mainly decdocs.org and linked >> sites, as well as google) and I was unable to locate scanned manuals for >> the Vaxstation 4000/90. If anyone has a link to such documents, I would >> appreciate it. >Manx shows that the Owner's Guide and Service Information are online: >http://vt100.net/manx/search?cp=1;q=vaxstation+4000;num=20;on=0 I was not aware of manx, thank you. David -- David de Gruyl From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 2 10:37:00 2003 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More items from the 'Garage'... Message-ID: <20030502083416.F56632@agora.rdrop.com> Finding myself (yet again) in the unenviable position of needing to free up both some space and a fair chunk of money in a (very) short amount of time, it is time to release a few more items from the 'Garage' to new homes... As I'm still having problems with getting (large) things shipped out, I'll be making one run out to the 'big city' to seek a shipping place for packing and shipping, so everything will go out at once... Items up for purchase: -------------------------------------- Heath H-11a / H27 system H-11a Chassis M7270 LSI 11/2 CPU WHA-11-16 16x16 RAM (2) H11-5 Serial card (2) WH11-5 Serial card H11-2 Parallel card H27 Floppy Interface H27 Dual Drive unit Untested, no docs or disk based software. Includes Heath paper tape based software. $600 plus shipping -------------------------------------- Heath H-10 paper tape reader/punch includes manual Runs but needs cleaning/alignment $150 plus shipping (or $100 if purchased w/H-11 system) -------------------------------------- Heath H-8 / H17 / H37 system H8 Chassis HA8-6 Z80 CPU WH8-64 RAM Multi Port Serial Card H17 Floppy Interface H37 Floppy Interface H17 Dual Drive unit H37 Dual Drive unit Runs, but has issues with formatting floppys... Includes hardware manual set, some software. $400 plus shipping -------------------------------------- Heath 8 inch drive chassis Not real sure of the ID on this one, but someone has suggested that it is H207-40 Drive chassis with one half-height 8 inch floppy drive installed. Blank panel suggests room for a second drive. Untested... no docs. $40 plus shipping -------------------------------------- Polymorphics Systems 8813/2 System Unopened, in original factory packaging! This unit is a twin of the 'amazing smoking computer' seen in the 'This Old Computer' presentation at VCF IV Dual drive, 64k RAM, original manuals and software. System 88 User's Guide System 88 Software Wordmaster This unit has not been out of it's box since it left the Polymorphics factory probably 20 years ago! Untested... (at least by me) obviously... $300 plus shipping -------------------------------------- All items are first come, first served... If you are in the area (SE Kansas) and can pick up then all the better. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 2 11:49:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: FA: HP computer manuals; Pascal, Fortran, IPC Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030502124835.57e7bc2e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've just finished listing a bunch of HP computer and software manuals on E-bay. A lot of the manuals cover HP-UX and are likly to be applicable to the IPC. Don't just go by the titles, look through the HP-UX manuals to see which one you think are applicable. Also listed HP pascal and Fortran manuals and a DATA I?O Setsite module for the Unisite programmer. see if interested. Joe From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 12:00:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More items from the 'Garage'... Message-ID: <200305021658.JAA19935@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jim I would be interested in the H11 system, H-10 punch and especially the Poly 8813. I was at the VCF when the smoke came out. I loved it. Sellam had put my talk at an overlapped time with your event so I only saw the first part. I have a Poly 88 but have been looking for a 8813 for some time. Dwight >From: "James Willing" > >Finding myself (yet again) in the unenviable position of needing to >free up both some space and a fair chunk of money in a (very) short >amount of time, it is time to release a few more items from the 'Garage' >to new homes... > >As I'm still having problems with getting (large) things shipped out, I'll >be making one run out to the 'big city' to seek a shipping place for >packing and shipping, so everything will go out at once... > >Items up for purchase: > >-------------------------------------- > >Heath H-11a / H27 system > H-11a Chassis > M7270 LSI 11/2 CPU > WHA-11-16 16x16 RAM (2) > H11-5 Serial card (2) > WH11-5 Serial card > H11-2 Parallel card > H27 Floppy Interface > H27 Dual Drive unit > >Untested, no docs or disk based software. >Includes Heath paper tape based software. > >$600 plus shipping > >-------------------------------------- > >Heath H-10 paper tape reader/punch > includes manual > >Runs but needs cleaning/alignment > >$150 plus shipping >(or $100 if purchased w/H-11 system) > >-------------------------------------- > >Heath H-8 / H17 / H37 system > H8 Chassis > HA8-6 Z80 CPU > WH8-64 RAM > Multi Port Serial Card > H17 Floppy Interface > H37 Floppy Interface > H17 Dual Drive unit > H37 Dual Drive unit > >Runs, but has issues with formatting floppys... >Includes hardware manual set, some software. > >$400 plus shipping > >-------------------------------------- > >Heath 8 inch drive chassis > >Not real sure of the ID on this one, but someone has >suggested that it is H207-40 > >Drive chassis with one half-height 8 inch floppy drive >installed. Blank panel suggests room for a second drive. > >Untested... no docs. > >$40 plus shipping > >-------------------------------------- > >Polymorphics Systems 8813/2 System > >Unopened, in original factory packaging! > >This unit is a twin of the 'amazing smoking computer' >seen in the 'This Old Computer' presentation at VCF IV > >Dual drive, 64k RAM, original manuals and software. > System 88 User's Guide > System 88 Software > Wordmaster > >This unit has not been out of it's box since it left the >Polymorphics factory probably 20 years ago! > >Untested... (at least by me) obviously... > >$300 plus shipping > >-------------------------------------- > >All items are first come, first served... >If you are in the area (SE Kansas) and can pick up then >all the better. > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 12:18:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: More items from the 'Garage'... Message-ID: <200305021716.KAA19963@clulw009.amd.com> Oops! Got to look at where I send things. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi Jim > I would be interested in the H11 system, H-10 punch >and especially the Poly 8813. I was at the VCF when the >smoke came out. I loved it. Sellam had put my talk >at an overlapped time with your event so I only saw >the first part. I have a Poly 88 but have been looking >for a 8813 for some time. >Dwight > ---snip--- From patrick at evocative.com Fri May 2 12:29:00 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: H89 disk formats? In-Reply-To: <200304302316.QAA18231@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: Dwight, I was going through a stack of HUG diskettes last night just taking stock of what I have, and lo and behold, I have a utilities disk with a HUG-modified H-17 driver that supports two-sided 40- and 80-track drives (hard sector still, of course). Judging from the instructions, it seems that basically replacing SY.DVD on a disk with this new driver (and of course, having the right drive in the machine) would get it working. It seems plausible that the disk could have been made on a system with this driver. It comes with assembly source as well, and even versions for machines upgraded to 3- and 4-Mhz operation. No mods to the controller itself appear to be necessary. Let you know if you'd like a copy. Patrick > >From: "Don Maslin" > > > >Dwight, I would assume that they were done on a 96tpi > >floppy drive. > > - don > > > > Hi Don > That is what I figured. I've been working on my serial > bootstrap and transfer program. I'm able to read and > write an image to the H89 but I'm still having issues > getting the formatting to work. I copied some old > code that I have in the Fig-Forth that I did but it > is still missing something. I even went back and ran > the Forth FORMAT and it works fine. I suspect there is > some other initialization that I'm missing. I looked at > one stretch of code and there is an operation that should > always hang. Can't figure why the original works. It > may be something connected to the timer interrupt that > isn't normally there. I wish I'd made good notes when > I did the original but this was one of my first computer > projects, after working on my Poly88, and brain rot > is now catching up with me. > Once I get the format working, I can work on cleaning > up the user interface. Looking at the 96 stuff is a > little later on the list. > Dwight From mranalog at attbi.com Fri May 2 12:53:01 2003 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <3EB2B628.3B2C95B7@attbi.com> The Design Fort DTP wrote: > I would be interested to learn more about the Heathkit EC-1 > analog computer. So far I only found pictures and specifications > on the net. Is there a website that actually explained how > this machine worked and/or what it could/can do. > Even more are there informations about "programs" that this > machine could run? Most computer applications are simulations of one kind or another, word processors, spreadsheets, drawing programs, even a desktop GUI. Analog computers are the masters of the art of simulation, but they are not used for mundane simulations like these. Analog Computers run mathematical simulation of physical systems. Everything from the decay of subatomic particles to the interaction of two colliding galaxies. Do you want to: * See the results of a chemical reaction? * Test the design of an automobile tire? * Study the effects of pollution on a fish population? * Model blood flow through an organ? * Understand the effects of lowering the interest rate? * Fine tune the design of the Space Shuttle main engine? * Control flooding on a major river? * Explore new types of music? All of these are physical systems governed by mathematical equations. Analog computers are PURELY parallel and can run programs slower than real time, real time or faster than real time. Simulations can be halted at any point and all aspects of the simulation can be examined. Changes can then be made and the simulation can then be continued from the point it was halted or restart from the beginning. So, analog computers can not only simulate a fixed systems, but can also test 'what if' cases very easily. Analog computers can be a hardwired special purpose type or flexible general purpose type. The EC-1 with only nine amplifiers can be limiting in the size of simulations it will handle. But analog computers don't have the compatibility and the connectivity problem of digital computers. Ten EC-1s could be connected together to form an EC-1 with 90 amplifiers. The only problem would be if more than 9 integrators were used then a slight modification would have to be made to each EC-1 using an integrator to allow one EC-1 to control the mode. An EC-1 can also be directly connected to another brand of analog computer. No problem other than the mode control of integrators. The lure of the EC-1 is that it a inexpensive and compact example of vacuum tube computing. The world is analog. The human mind is analog. Digital computers make a nice hobby, and work just fine for tasks composed of sequential steps, but they are just an over hyped fad. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= From mranalog at attbi.com Fri May 2 13:35:00 2003 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <3EB2C00E.A3342479@attbi.com> Ethan wrote: > How does a resistive sheet computer work? Just a quick note for now. Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog computing called network analyzers. > In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers > stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? Fluidics (or fluid logic) can have both analog and digital processes. You can perform boolean operations, but you also can have fluid amplifers. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 13:50:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305021848.LAA20083@clulw009.amd.com> >X-Server-Uuid: 262C4BA7-64EE-471D-8B02-117625D613AB >X-Authentication-Warning: huey.classiccmp.org: mailnull set sender to cctalk-admin using -f >From: "Doug Coward" >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 >X-BeenThere: cctalk@classiccmp.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 >List-Unsubscribe: , >List-Id: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , >List-Archive: >X-Original-Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700 >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700 >X-WSS-ID: 12AC63976885576-01-01 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Ethan wrote: >> How does a resistive sheet computer work? > > Just a quick note for now. > Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog >computing called network analyzers. > >> In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers >> stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? > > Fluidics (or fluid logic) can have both analog >and digital processes. You can perform boolean >operations, but you also can have fluid amplifers. Hi An interesting side note. The power steering of your auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. Dwight > --Doug >========================================= >Doug Coward >@ home in Poulsbo, WA > >Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center >http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog >========================================= From emu at ecubics.com Fri May 2 14:03:01 2003 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: Looking for a 11/44 in denver area / colorado Message-ID: <3EB2C1D6.6070909@ecubics.com> Hi, Anybody out in colorado with a "spare" 11/44 ? Or even just a power supply for a 11/44 ? cheers & thanks From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri May 2 15:36:00 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:25 2005 Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030502134120.02f62070@mail.zipcon.net> the ones I'm trying to match are TMS44C256-80 At 07:54 AM 5/1/03 -0700, you wrote: >I have a fair quantity of the following: > >P21256-12 >MCM6256BP12 >Lh21256-12 >MTC4c1024-8 >KM41C1000BP-8 > >thanks Norm >snip: > > >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:37:28 -0700 > >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >From: Geoff Reed > >Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster > >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > >anyone have any of these floating around? I can't believe I gave 'em all > >away and now I need to populate a laserjet IIID memory board :( From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Fri May 2 15:46:01 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format Message-ID: Hi All, Looks as though the CS80 / LIF part of my HPIB disk reader/writer is working OK now - thanks to those who gave me pointers. I've come across another HPIB hard disk that that uses the Amigo command set (- I think) and contains data in HFS format. Does anyone have full documentation for these two standards in .pdf format? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 2 16:26:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030502134120.02f62070@mail.zipcon.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030502171252.0fd75bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:41 PM 5/2/03 -0700, you wrote: >the ones I'm trying to match are TMS44C256-80 These are 4 x 256k RAMs. See my previous post about where to find them. Joe > >At 07:54 AM 5/1/03 -0700, you wrote: >>I have a fair quantity of the following: >> >>P21256-12 >>MCM6256BP12 >>Lh21256-12 >>MTC4c1024-8 >>KM41C1000BP-8 >> >>thanks Norm >>snip: >> >> >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:37:28 -0700 >> >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >From: Geoff Reed >> >Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster >> >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> >> >anyone have any of these floating around? I can't believe I gave 'em all >> >away and now I need to populate a laserjet IIID memory board :( From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 2 16:26:16 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030502172458.0fb71dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Peter, At 08:44 PM 5/2/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi All, > >Looks as though the CS80 / LIF part of my HPIB disk reader/writer is working >OK now - thanks to those who gave me pointers. > >I've come across another HPIB hard disk that that uses the Amigo command set >(- I think) and contains data in HFS format. I'd be surprised if it is Amigo and uses HFS. What kind of drive is it? I can tell you for certain what kind of command set it uses. > >Does anyone have full documentation for these two standards in .pdf format? You asked me about this a few days ago but I've been busy and forgot to reply. I have a document called "HP Flexible Disk Drive Command Set" that I'm pretty sure contains a description of the Amigo command set. It's an appendix to the HP 9114 disk drive service manual. It's 36 pages long. I can send you a copy or I'll send it to Al K. or anyone else that wants to scan it and post it on the web somewhere. Joe > >Cheers > >Peter Brown > >_________________________________________________________________ >On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From mranalog at attbi.com Fri May 2 17:12:00 2003 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <3EB2F2DA.30CF9E1E@attbi.com> Ethan wrote: > How does a resistive sheet computer work? I wrote: > Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog > computing called network analyzers. Oops, I need to correct this. Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog computing called passive element computers in which network analyzers are probably the biggest and most well known examples. But it also includes * conductive sheets * electrolytic tanks - create 3 dimensional simulations * resistor networks * pin and rod systems * resistor and capacitor network Passive element computers normally models a physical system using only passive R-L-C components, and solve equations in which dimensions in space are the independent variables, rather than time. Applications for passive element computers include things like the simulation of * reception patterns of a receiving antenna * temperture, and pressure flow in a nozzle * diffusion of material at a transistor junction Here is an example: You solder together a large two dimensional matrix of resistors (all the same value). At each node where the resistors are soldered together you solder a capacitor connected to ground. You then apply a voltage to one corner of this resistor and capacitor network. As the current flows through the network it begins to charge the capacitors. You now have a computer that simulates the heat flow across a metal plate the size of your matrix, both over distance and over time. Without the capacitors you are simulating only over distance. A resistive sheet is a resistor matrix with a very fine mesh. The finer the mesh, the better the simulation. "Rubber-sheet computers have been used extensively to study the trajectories of electrons and gas ions in vacuum and gas tubes" -Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 17:49:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <200305021848.LAA20083@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20030502224720.74438.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Hi > An interesting side note. The power steering of your > auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. > Dwight I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:12:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 Message-ID: <20030502231032.28079.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> I was collecting all of my hex LED displays into one place so I can test them before embarking on a new 1802 project. I even dug into my old box of spare Elf parts and pulled out a small board with four TIL311 displays attached to a small microcontroller board - some kind of monitor/indicator given to me by the brother of the guy that got me into the 1802 as a kid. He had given it to me to harvest the TIL displays. I finally *looked* at the attached board to see what was on it - an NS 8073! I used to have access to an RB5X robot when I was a volunteer at the local science museum in High School - same chip - the hot-item-for-a-brief-moment microcontroller with embedded Tiny Basic. Now, rather than harvest the parts, I'm very tempted to reverse-engineer the schematic of the little board to see what it does. Looks like there's a small bipolar PROM, a 6116 SRAM, one or two TTL chips, and the TIL311s driven by the output pins of the 8073. The whole thing is only a few square inches. The funny thing is that I'd recently picked up a few 8073s from ePay to play with. I was planning on hooking them up to some 8031-based 8-line LCD displays I got for a few bucks each (originally out of some flavor of AT&T office phone, IIRC). Sort of the Classic Attraction principle in reverse - new toys attracting alike items from the recesses of the junk box rather than the normal way 'round. Has anyone else played with the 8073 (in an RB5X or not)? If they hadn't been so pricey 20 years ago, I might have gotten one to experiment with back then. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 18:12:17 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305022310.QAA21137@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >--- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >> Hi >> An interesting side note. The power steering of your >> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. >> Dwight > >I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > >-ethan Hi Actually, now that you mention it, my '68 Fiat 124 Spider isn't either but it does have a vacuum booster on the master cylender. I guess well have to buy newer examples of analog amplifiers. Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 2 18:16:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030502224720.74438.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030502224720.74438.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > Hi > > An interesting side note. The power steering of your > > auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. > > Dwight > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have power steering, if it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that: The automatic transmission as found in a good portion of the cars, trucks, and busses on the roads today, is a marvelous and complex analogue computer - solving for the match of the mechanical impedances of the vehicle versus the engine - given the obvious constraints of both: the vehicle must be capable of being stopped for variable periods of time, while the engine cannot be stopped in normal operation, and furthermore the range of input shaft to output shaft ratios must be maintained to allow for the torque/horsepower curves of the engine, and, by extension. it's economical and 'safe' operating ranges, and finally the output information must be able to have it's sign changed by operator command. ('reverse') The engine power must be coupled and uncoupled at various times to allow speed range changes, and the transmission must accept range-modification commands from the driver and from the engine systems - like acceleration kick-down. All this must be done in a very harsh environment, handling many foot-pounds of torque and generally multiple hundreds of HP, and be able to be produced in the millions of units - and do all this maintenance-free for years... Then of course the output 'information' from the tranny flows to a nice little mechanical computer that continuously solves the differential equation that arises when two wheels separated by an axle need to negotiate varying radii while maintaining a fixed and 'solid' relationship to the input signal. That's why is *called* a "differential". But Y'all knew that already, I reckon.... Cheers John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 2 18:29:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <200305022310.QAA21137@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030502192646.45af7e4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >>From: "Ethan Dicks" >> >>--- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >>> Hi >>> An interesting side note. The power steering of your >>> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. >>> Dwight >> >>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 18:34:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > An interesting side note. The power steering of your > > > auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have power steering, if > it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that: A 1968 Beetle would either have a manual transmission, or the Awful Shit Stick (manual shifting, but a torque converter instead of a clutch). The type 3's (squareback, etc) were the first to have a real auto transmission, and it is unlikely that ANY beetles with the semi-automatic are still running. Analog computers are the closest thing to "REAL" computers, since floating point, as it is commonly implemented, are NOT "REAL numbers", no matter what any FORTRAN compiler might claim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 2 18:42:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Looking for a 11/44 in denver area / colorado In-Reply-To: <3EB2C1D6.6070909@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 2, 3 01:07:02 pm Message-ID: > Hi, > Anybody out in colorado with a "spare" 11/44 ? > Or even just a power supply for a 11/44 ? Are you missing the PSU, or do you have one that doesn't work? Although it's by no means my favourite PSU to work on, it is possible to repair these supplies and live to tell the tale (!). If you're happy working on SMPSUs (with lethal 400V DC supplies everywhere), I can probably help you find the fualt -tony From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 18:43:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305022340.QAA21438@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Joe > >>>From: "Ethan Dicks" >>> >>>--- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >>>> Hi >>>> An interesting side note. The power steering of your >>>> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. >>>> Dwight >>> >>>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. > > Joe > Hi Hydraulic brakes don't amplify unless they use a booster. It is true that most drum brakes amplify when stopping while moving forward. Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. Dwight From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:43:07 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502234112.1557.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Lawson wrote: > On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > > The power steering of your auto is an example of an analog fluid > > > amplifier. > > > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have power steering, > if it's got an automatic transmission... Nope... 4-speed manual. There was this thing called an "auto-stick", but that was a servo-operated clutch (and an ordinary manual transmission) that engaged when you began to move the stick. You still shifted, but you didn't clutch. Anyway... I didn't mean to spawn a car thread here - I just wanted to speak up because of the comments that suggest that we all drive power-everything cars. My 1976 MicroBus does have an analog-component fuel-injection computer, but I think we've hashed those out here before (and it has manual steering and a 4-speed manual transmission, too, plus a vacuum-assisted non-power hydraulic brake system). I do agree that _a_ power steering rig on _many_ cars is an example of a fluidic amplifier. Presumably, one could argue the same for the master cylinder/slave cylinder on hydraulic brakes. There's even a logic element - a safety mechanism that's been standard in cars sold in the U.S. for decades - a slug in the master cylinder that sits between the front fluid loop and the back fluid loop that *normally* just sits there. In cases where you lose pressure in one loop, it is forced to the low-pressure side and operates the brakes in fail-over mode. I'm not sure whether to call it a comparator or a flip-flop. Maybe it's a comparator that drives a flip-flop when the pressures aren't equal. In any case, in a VW, there's a red light on the dash that lights up when the slug moves. It works. Trust me on that. :-) -ethan P.S. - re-reading the top of this, in case my use of the term "auto" was read as short for "automatic transmission", it wasn't meant as such. I was recycling the term from the previous poster and using it as an abbreviation of "automobile" (unless you are a fan of "Futurama", then it's "automacar" ;-) The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jrasite at eoni.com Fri May 2 18:45:01 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1 References: Message-ID: <3EB302B7.4020504@eoni.com> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >it is unlikely that ANY beetles with the semi-automatic >are still running. > > > You'd be surprised... There are a couple three of them daily driven here in my little town (2k pop). Jim From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:48:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT: computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030502192646.45af7e4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030502234643.5593.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joe wrote: > >>From: "Ethan Dicks" > >>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) Those it does have (see earlier message). > I expect that the vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. Nope. Mechanical advance (centrifugal weights). -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 2 18:50:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030502192646.45af7e4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe" at May 2, 3 07:26:46 pm Message-ID: > Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect > that the vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. The trditional ignition distributor is an analogue computer IMHO. The inputs are engine position (internally differentiated to give engine speed by the centrifugal weights) and inlet manifold vacuum. The output is the timing of the contact breaker, giving the spark. -tony From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:52:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <200305022340.QAA21438@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20030502235053.79529.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. > I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). Depends on the exact model and year. Many do; some do not. > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection) was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to do component-level diagnosis. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 18:53:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analogs (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <200305022340.QAA21438@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > >>>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the > vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. > I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). All VWs in 1968 left the factory with a vacuum advance. But it was not at all uncommon in performance modifications to replace it with a purely mechanical advance distributor (either aftermarket, or from a much earlier model, such as the Botch 019) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 2 18:54:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 2, 3 07:14:11 pm Message-ID: > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > > Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have power steering, if > it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that: Very few Beetles (at least in Europe) had automatic transmission.... > > The automatic transmission as found in a good portion of the cars, > trucks, and busses on the roads today, is a marvelous and complex analogue > computer - solving for the match of the mechanical impedances of the I've never worked on an automatic transmission, but I have read the shop manual for the Borg-Warner model 35 (which was the standard unit fitted on UK automatic cars in the 1970s). The control valve block is a work of art. Slide valves operate on differences in pressure between hydraulic lines (or between a single line and a spring). The pressure in some lines increases as the engine runs faster (thus rotating the pump faster), and so on. I am still amazed it works! And of course the torque converter is a rather neat little impedence matching analogue computer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 2 18:56:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT: computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030502234643.5593.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 2, 3 04:46:43 pm Message-ID: > > I expect that the vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. > > Nope. Mechanical advance (centrifugal weights). Which is IMHO an analogue computer (albeit not a hydraulic one)... -tony From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri May 2 18:57:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C.Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006701c31106$4f685760$020010ac@k4jcw> Heh. I had a 1968 with AST. Only it was stuck in 3rd gear. Very slow acceleration. No reverse. Had a switched wired to the stick so that it would pull in the electrically triggered vaccum powered clutch. Used to make sure to have to part uphill, if I was going to need reverse. Did you know that with a little patience, you can roll-start one in 3rd gear? I originally bought it for parts, was going to use the engine in a restoration of a 1967. And for $300, as a parts car, it was too good to pass up. But like many projects, the parts car became the main mode of transporation for some time. Once, the transmission blew. Transmo fluid everywhere. Decided that since the engine was out, may as well rebuild it. You know how that goes. Well, if the engine is out, might as well replace the jugs. Got the heads off to swap jugs, may as well put new push rods in. And valves, they're cheap. $700 later, I had a new engine, and had fixed the transmission cooler. Still stuck in 3rd. No amount of hammering would break it lose. Drove it (actually, both the wife and I drove this) another few thousand miles, transmo blew again. Fixed it, wife decided it would expedient to get it hit by a truck (not her fault, truck ran a turn lane red light). And she killed my other VW, ran it over a street sign, completely gutted the pan. Got rid of it, too. One time, I took the '68 in for service to a local shop. A few months later, I went some other place to buy parts, was talking about the car. Counter guy says "Wait, is this a blue or black Bug, and there's some kind of switch to pull in the clutch on a white PVC tube on the stick?" Apparently, the story of my creative modification had made the rounds of the parts store. He was so amused when I showed it to him, he gave me 5% off. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 19:33 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1 > > > > > > An interesting side note. The power steering of your > > > > auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. > > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have > power steering, if > > it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that: > > A 1968 Beetle would either have a manual transmission, or the > Awful Shit > Stick (manual shifting, but a torque converter instead of a > clutch). The > type 3's (squareback, etc) were the first to have a real auto > transmission, and it is unlikely that ANY beetles with the > semi-automatic > are still running. > > > Analog computers are the closest thing to "REAL" computers, > since floating > point, as it is commonly implemented, are NOT "REAL numbers", > no matter > what any FORTRAN compiler might claim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 19:03:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog auto systems (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030502234112.1557.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) > > Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have power steering, > > if it's got an automatic transmission... > Nope... 4-speed manual. There was this thing called an "auto-stick", > but that was a servo-operated clutch (and an ordinary manual transmission) > that engaged when you began to move the stick. You still shifted, but > you didn't clutch. I don't think that I would call a torque converter a "servo". From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 19:04:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3EB302B7.4020504@eoni.com> Message-ID: > >it is unlikely that ANY beetles with the semi-automatic > >are still running. On Fri, 2 May 2003, Jim wrote: > You'd be surprised... There are a couple three of them daily driven > here in my little town (2k pop). YIKES! WHY??!? Do they also collect Packard Bell ATs? From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 19:06:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog auto systems (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030503000436.63258.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > I don't think that I would call a torque converter a "servo". I remember the phrase "servo" from literature of the time. I have never owned one, nor have I worked on one. I've only seen them drive by. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 19:11:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030502235053.79529.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. > The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection) > was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late > 1960s, That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) starting in 1968 (U.S. models; slightly different introduction years elsewhere). The "Type IVs" would also qualify, but not until early 1970s. > then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's > clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators > and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to > do component-level diagnosis. They were fun. A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection on 2180 engines (the largest that you could expand the 1600 engine without significant machining) in his early 60s VW buses. He was able to trick the computer into handling the larger displacement properly by messing with some of the inputs (particularly the head temperature sender) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 2 19:13:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <200305022340.QAA21438@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030502201158.45a7972c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:40 PM 5/2/03 -0700, you wrote: >>From: Joe >> >>>>From: "Ethan Dicks" >>>> >>>>--- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >>>>> Hi >>>>> An interesting side note. The power steering of your >>>>> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. >>>>> Dwight >>>> >>>>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) >> >> Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the >vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify. >> >> Joe >> > >Hi > Hydraulic brakes don't amplify unless they use a booster. Not so. They amplify the force (not the energy). >It is true that most drum brakes amplify when stopping while >moving forward. True but that's not a fluid system, it's a mechanical system. > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. Many?? I'm not buying it! Show me a stock car of that vintage that doesn't use a vacuum advance. The only ones that I know of that were even close to that vintage that don't have vacuum advances were the '64-'65 Chryslers with the 426 RACE Hemi engine (the later street Hemis did have VA.) >I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't original. > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. You're right. Even you're only talking about non-fluid computing elements you can include the numerous levers such as the brake pedal, shifters, parking brake handles, brake cams, rocker arms, trottle pedal lever, trottle lever on the carburator, lots of levers and cams in the carburator, etc etc. Joe >Dwight From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 19:18:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030503001607.56434.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. > > ..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s, > That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)... Oops... right you are (never had one myself and slipped a cog). > A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection... LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians squirting into the combustion chamber. :-) -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 19:23:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog auto systems (was: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305030019.RAA21454@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > >> > > I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) >> > Well, now - not so fast! While your Bug may not have power steering, >> > if it's got an automatic transmission... >> Nope... 4-speed manual. There was this thing called an "auto-stick", >> but that was a servo-operated clutch (and an ordinary manual transmission) >> that engaged when you began to move the stick. You still shifted, but >> you didn't clutch. > >I don't think that I would call a torque converter a "servo". > Hi I put a brake servo on my '53 power wagon. That is gone now. The storm this last winter blew over a 147 foot Douglas Fir onto it. It push all 4 tires into the ground, down to the axles, and the axles to the frame. I think this is when the body finally gave. Dwight From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri May 2 19:30:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra Message-ID: <1051921712.25202.16.camel@crusader> Howdy all, I stumbled across a Northgate Omnikey Ultra (not UltraPlus) keyboard in the local thrift store, and picked it up for 5$. (It had a nice feel, kinda PS/2'ish, and no stupid windows, or various other internet/volume controls/etc keys.) I've had it for about a week now, and just can't get used to funky arrangement of the arrow keys in the middle, and the F keys on the left just throws my Unreal Tournament gaming off. (See http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com for some piccy's) Anyways, I gather these things were something of a 'gotta have it' keyboard at one time, and were bloody expensive. Thought I'd offer it up here, for 5$ + shipping before it goes downstairs in the basement to collect dust. One thing to note, is its got one of the AT style connectors in back, so you'll need an adapter if your going to plug it into a PS/2 style connector. (No, you can't have the one I was using) Visually, its pretty clean, there's a little green stuff on the bottom where I attacked (mostly ineffectively) some sticky stuff w/ a scrubbing sponge, but the top is (imho) nice and clean. I think all the keys work, however, there might be a few F keys I didn't hit the week I was using it. I gather it might of came with some extra keycaps when it was new, so you could move around control/shift. I do not have those. Anyways, enough disclaimers, Anyone want it? (I think this is at least on-topic) David From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 19:31:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog auto systems (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030503000436.63258.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > I don't think that I would call a torque converter a "servo". > I remember the phrase "servo" from literature of the time. I have > never owned one, nor have I worked on one. I've only seen them > drive by. There could very well have been a servo in addition to the torque converter. I did a lot of engine work, but NEVER worked on VW transmissions (I had a friend that did, and handed all of those jobs to him) There was one fellow who had a bug with auto-shit-stick AND air conditioning. That was one seriously overworked engine. Switching the oil cooler to a type 3 and using the >1971 fan housing helped a little, but not enough. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 19:39:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030502201158.45a7972c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. > >I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). > I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and > they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the > stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a > faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't > original. There was at least one model each of Porsche and VW that had them as stock original equipment. Maybe some mid 1950s VW Bus? (All of the 60s and newer VW had VA) Six months ago, I got rid of 3 used mechanical advance distributors and a Mallory mechanical distributor for VW (and a couple of boxes of type 3 fool injection stuff). Reduction of storage space sucks. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 19:46:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog auto systems (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <20030503000436.63258.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: [VW with "Auto Stick Shift"/"Awful Shit Stick"] On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I remember the phrase "servo" from literature of the time. I have > never owned one, nor have I worked on one. I've only seen them > drive by. I'm sure that you have passed MANY more than have ever passed or driven by you. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 2 19:47:00 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030502235053.79529.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200305022340.QAA21438@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20030503004514.RXLK4232.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT) > --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. > > I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). > > Depends on the exact model and year. Many do; some do not. > > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. > > The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection) > was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late > 1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's > clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators > and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to > do component-level diagnosis. I did see and knew there were EFI bugs as well from that era. Very good & reliable, what is troublesome is those guys doesn't heed the manuals and keep hoses in good repair. Gee, I rather go with injection (dependable designs is a given) of any types over the carbs (had second hand experience w/ my parents dealing with an toyota 90 tercel w/ dying carb very recently. Seems very rare few knew how to do a carb right especially those crankerous toyota carb or like. Cheers, Wizard > > -ethan > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 2 19:53:00 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030503001607.56434.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <20030503005159.MVT15637.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. > > > ..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s, > > That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)... I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old bug autosticks came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled newsgroups), touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your left foot. It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to maintain. Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on an "automanualic" using clutches instead of converter. I'm watching that with keen interest. It's there in www.allpar.com > > Oops... right you are (never had one myself and slipped a cog). > > > A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection... > > LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians > squirting into the combustion chamber. :-) > > -ethan > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com From jrasite at eoni.com Fri May 2 19:59:00 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1 References: Message-ID: <3EB31415.8030505@eoni.com> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >On Fri, 2 May 2003, Jim wrote: > > >>You'd be surprised... There are a couple three of them daily driven >>here in my little town (2k pop). >> >> > >YIKES! > >WHY??!? >Do they also collect Packard Bell ATs? > >. > > > No. Mac LCs. ;) Jim From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 2 20:13:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <200305030111.SAA21486@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Doug Coward" > > Ethan wrote: >> How does a resistive sheet computer work? > > I wrote: >> Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog >> computing called network analyzers. > > Oops, I need to correct this. > Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog Hi This is the place to describe my method of finding shorts on power planes. This is very much like the resistive sheet methods. You place a power supply across one of the two planes that has shorts between them, such that about one or two amps is flowing in current limit. You place one lead of a volt meter on the opposite plane and then probe with the other lead on the plane with the current flowing across it. You find a line where the meter reads zero. Now, move the power leads to an orthogonal corners. Again fine the line of zero volts. Where the two lines cross, you'll find the short. There are variations of this method for finding shorts between traces and even multiple shorts. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 2 20:25:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030503005159.MVT15637.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: > > --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. > > > > ..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s, > > > That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)... On Fri, 2 May 2003 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old bug autosticks Certainly. But the three lines above, that you are replying to, are referring not to the Awful Shit Stick, but to the Botch Electronic Fool Injection. Which was introduced in the Type 3s (Squareback/Fastback) in 1968, and were NOT available in the 1960s in Type 1 (bug), Type 2 (Bus), or Type 4. The "success" of EFI in the Type 3s led to the use of it in other models in the 1970s. For example, in about 1972, the bus switched from carbs over to using the same engine as the Type 4, with fool injection. By the mid 1970s, smog requirements had made carburetors so complex and temperamental that even the most trivial problem was a real hassle. By the end of the 1960s, the Type 3 was available with a REAL automatic transmission. (In the U.S., the bug was the only model that ever had the Awful Shit Stick.) > I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old bug autosticks > came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor > built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled > newsgroups), Newsgroups are a great source of information. Removing the engine yourself is even better. > touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your > left foot. It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to > maintain. Awful Shit Stick/"Auto Stick Shift" had a torque convertor of some sort, NOT a clutch (pressure plate and friction disc). Once you got to the transmission itself, it was, indeed, manual. But it was only 3? speed, NOT the "normal" 4 speed manual of all of the other VWs. > Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on an > "automanualic" using clutches instead of converter. I'm watching > that with keen interest. It's there in www.allpar.com With significantly more engine power than the bug had, it certainly could have worked. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 2 20:27:00 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20030502201158.45a7972c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030503012526.LWLR18098.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1 > Reply-to: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:37:23 -0700 (PDT) > > > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. > > >I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). > > I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and > > they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the > > stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a > > faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't > > original. Sounds like 009 distributors. It was foolishly used to "perk" up performance and drivablity suffers bec of wrong advance curves w/ vacuum advance carbs. So u get a "hole" in acceleration while accelerating steadily. That 009 was orignally for bus to push heavy weight by pushing rpm up with correct carb for bus. Basic cure was change back to correct carb w/ dual vacuum advance and overhaul that engine. They don't have the "life" compared to liquid cooled engines hence the frequent overhauls. 65,000km is about typical for those. Oh, in other email, troubles with cooling meant wrong cooling hardware or missing vital bits like small bits (goes between cylinder to plug the "air hole" and cooling flaps helps to direct air and proper warm-up process, correct tinware like fan shound (generics didn't have vanes built in to guide air in), etc, good engine/body seal. Even early engine lid (fewer vent grilles) w/ 1600cc engine instead of 1200cc straves engine of cooling air. There were good bugs that had no problems with engine temps running a/c add on. Remember german engineers thought of everything so even little bits do matter like in those air-cooled cars. Even the older jettas that my friends have, I even still find them they still need frequent care and expensive. Cheers, Wizard From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 2 20:49:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: VCF Europa 4.0 Message-ID: This weekend is VCF Europa 4.0 in Muenchen, Deustchland! Complete information is on the VCF Europa website: http://www.vcfe.de I look forward to reports from those that make it since I won't be present this year :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rdd at rddavis.org Fri May 2 20:55:00 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT Vaporized politicians (was OT computerless classic cars) In-Reply-To: <20030503005159.MVT15637.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <20030503005159.MVT15637.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20030503022228.GA78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> > > --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection... > > > > LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians > > squirting into the combustion chamber. :-) > > > > -ethan Someone ought to patent that processes along with a big vacuum, perhaps controlled by a PDP-11/44, to collect them all for such processing. Now that's what I call cleaning up the government! ;-) Along similar lines, who wants to invest in the production of effigies (noose or hot tar included) and voodoo dolls (pins included) that look like politicians? Perhaps a classic computer could be used to control an automated order and production system. Someone fills out a web form, makes a payment, selects a politicrat, and a effigy/doll bearing that politicrat's image is produced. Perfect for 4th of July parades in the US, Guy Fawkes day celebrations in England, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 2 20:57:00 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra In-Reply-To: David Holland's message of "02 May 2003 20:28:24 -0400" References: <1051921712.25202.16.camel@crusader> Message-ID: <200305030133.h431XExs061733@daemonweed.reanimators.org> David Holland wrote: > I've had it for about a week now, and just can't get used to funky > arrangement of the arrow keys in the middle, and the F keys on the left > just throws my Unreal Tournament gaming off. So we know it's one of the sort with the Omni key instead of an inverted-T layout. If it's an Ultra, it should also have the function keys across the top. > Anyways, I gather these things were something of a 'gotta have it' > keyboard at one time, and were bloody expensive. Not that bad. In the mid-1990s you could get them for about $70, which seems expensive for a keyboard, but for those of us who really wanted the control key to be to the left of A and didn't want to have to fuss with driver software to make it happen, it was well worth it. If you want expensive, go check out the Avant Stellar! That is reportedly the modern Northgate OmniKey, and it sells for about $150. > I gather it might of came with some extra keycaps when it was new, so > you could move around control/shift. I do not have those. So, some questions to help folks ID what you've got. Is the control key to the left of A? Where are the switches? Poking out the back, or hidden under the "OmniKey" flip-top lid, or not present at all (flip the lid up, see nothing)? Not present at all means it is a late-model programmable keyboard. They had firmware bugs, and the "fix" was "remove the EEPROM that holds the key remappings". > Anyone want it? (I think this is at least on-topic) Somebody better! -Frank McConnell From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 2 22:39:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT Vaporized politicians (was OT computerless classic cars) In-Reply-To: <20030503022228.GA78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 2003, R. D. Davis wrote: > Along similar lines, who wants to invest in the production of effigies > (noose or hot tar included) and voodoo dolls (pins included) that look > like politicians? Perhaps a classic computer could be used to control > an automated order and production system. Someone fills out a web > form, makes a payment, selects a politicrat, and a effigy/doll bearing > that politicrat's image is produced. Perfect for 4th of July parades > in the US, Guy Fawkes day celebrations in England, etc. The effigy can be in ASCII art no less! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From donm at cts.com Fri May 2 23:05:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030502235053.79529.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance. > > I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ). > > Depends on the exact model and year. Many do; some do not. > > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements. > > The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection) > was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late > 1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's > clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators > and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to > do component-level diagnosis. But Fuel Injection is not a carburetor - same objective, but different critter. - don > -ethan > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Sat May 3 05:42:00 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: MicroVAX4000/505A drive sleds Message-ID: <3EB3AAAE.19161.5923408@localhost> Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed - anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these things ; the chasis has a drive backplane at the top with 4 edge connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in. I need to knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches. Unless anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?... Ohhh, wonder if the MDS pils of docs has any details on this - off to look now :) ta greg From aeg at paradise.net.nz Sat May 3 05:50:00 2003 From: aeg at paradise.net.nz (Alan Greenstreet) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 Message-ID: <456C17E6-7D55-11D7-BB9C-0003937C53CC@paradise.net.nz> Hi All I have just acquired a System 80 MkII (distributed in Australasia by Dick Smith Electronics). On power up I get the LED power light ok but a screen full of random characters, the reset switch does nothing. I've had it apart and there are no loose connections or chips on the two main boards and no sign of any burnt or expired components. Has anyone had similar problems and / or knows what the problem is? Thanks Alan From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sat May 3 06:15:01 2003 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:26 2005 Subject: MicroVAX4000/505A drive sleds References: <3EB3AAAE.19161.5923408@localhost> Message-ID: <002e01c31165$5081d180$73469280@midorirose.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Elkin" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: MicroVAX4000/505A drive sleds > Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed - > anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these > things ; the chasis has a drive backplane at the top with 4 edge > connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in. I need to > knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches. Unless > anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?.. Cant help with the sleds, but it is possible to run DSSI drives without the ID plug, see http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html. Short answer: logon to the console of the drives' embedded processor and tell it it's new address! Can your peasea do that? ^_^ > ta > greg Bob From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 3 10:03:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP's Amigo Protocall & HP IPC Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030503110047.128f90be@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yesterday I was cleaning out and putting some excess HP manuals on E-bay. One of the books that I found, HP-UX Concepts and Tutorials - Device I/O and User Interfacing, looked interesting but was still sealed so I listed it without opening it to see exactly what it covered. (I'm not real big on HP-UX). Today I found another copy of the same manual. It was alreadu opened so I've been reading through it. First, it DOES cover the HP IPC (Intergral Personal Computer) along with the HP 9000 Series 200/300, Series 500 and Series 800 computers. Each function that only applies to certain systems is flagged and there are appendices for the IPC and each of the other series that list and describe any peculiarities of that implementation. BUT what was even more surprising is that it states that many of the HP printers use the Amigo protocall! For the ones of you that aren't familiar with HPs that protocall is used for low end disk drives. This is the first time that I've heard that was also used for printers. Besides that statement it also has a "non-trivel" programming example of an "HP-IB driver that uses the Device I/O Library subroutines to drive various models of the HP Amigo protocall HP-IB printers". This might be a good starting point for anyone that wants to write and Amigo driver to talk to disk drives. Are you listening, Sergio and Peter? This book is definitely a keeper! It describes the HP-IB and GPIO interfaces for the various systems in detail including their status and control registers. It then describes how to use the DIL (Device I/O Library) included with HP-UX to set, read and control the interfaces and how to link calls to the DIL from Fortran, Pascal and Assembly language programs. It looks like a great source of info for anyone that wants to write their own device drivers or wants low level control of HP-IB and GPIO interfaces under HP-UX. I'm keeping this copy but I have another one that's already on E-bay. I know this sounds like a shameless plug but it's not. I'm just really impressed with this book. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 3 10:16:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Live Message-ID: I fixed the VCF Europa Live pages from the vintage.org server. To see live pictures from VCF Europa 4.0, go here: http://www.vintage.org/2003/europa/ ...and click on "VCF Life". Look for the guy in the Blue Shirt and that will be Hans (Hansi Smurf). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 12:55:00 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP's Amigo Protocol, HFS Message-ID: Hi Joe, The drive is a 9134XV - serial number begins with 23 so I guess that it would be from around 1983. If I look at the drive with an HP 9000 332 it sees an HFS partition - with basic 6.0 binaries :). When I ask the drive to identify itself it returns a pair of bytes that I don't recognise (1 and 15 from memory but I could be wrong). This pair of bytes is not the same as the pair that would be returned by a CS80 drive. I managed to check the reader software with a pair of 9133 drives, a 9134 drive (which fails) and a 7907 drive (this identifies itself correctly but appears to have been wiped of data at some time). I have some other software recorded on 7906 removable cartridges - does anyone know if an HPIB version of this drive was made? - I think that the model number may be 7906H but I have no further information. Does anyone have a 7906H tht they don't need? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 3 14:17:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP's Amigo Protocol, HFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030503151630.469ffcee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:53 PM 5/3/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >The drive is a 9134XV - It's definitely an Amigo drive then. serial number begins with 23 so I guess that it >would be from around 1983. Correct. If I look at the drive with an HP 9000 332 it >sees an HFS partition - with basic 6.0 binaries :). My initial thought was the Amigo wouldn't suppport HFS but after some thought I don't see any reason that it wouldn't. > >When I ask the drive to identify itself it returns a pair of bytes that I >don't recognise (1 and 15 from memory but I could be wrong). This pair of >bytes is not the same as the pair that would be returned by a CS80 drive. I don't know much about the internals of the drives so I don't know what those might mean. I looked at the docs that I have on the 9133XV and I don't see anything with those numbers. Check them and let me know if that's the right numbers. If it's not, tell me the correct numbers and I'll see if they match anything in the specs. > >I managed to check the reader software with a pair of 9133 drives, a 9134 >drive (which fails) That's odd. Is the drive bad? Most systems identify a 9134 as a 9133 with no floppy drive. What kind of HP system are you checking these on and what BootROM does it have? Does the HP system show the 9134? What letter model is the 9134? and a 7907 drive (this identifies itself correctly but >appears to have been wiped of data at some time). > >I have some other software recorded on 7906 removable cartridges - does >anyone know if an HPIB version of this drive was made? - I think that the >model number may be 7906H but I have no further information. Does anyone >have a 7906H tht they don't need? I'm not sure of the model numbers but it appears that HP made both HP-IB and MAC versions of the 7906. I believe that they used an adapter (pn 12745C/D) to convert from MAC to HP-IB interface. The two models that I have listed in my HP 9000 Configurator manual are 7906M and 7906MR. The docs also list 7906C/D and I THINK those are M/MR models with Option 102 installed. No idea what option 102 is. Reading further I found, "There is no HP 9000 interface for the 13037 controller without an HP-IB adapter. The 7906H/HR ICD disks sare known not to work. The usability of the 7906S(slave) 7906A/B and 7905A disk is not known." Italics are HPs. I hope that confuses you as much as it did me! BTW the 13037 is some kind of MAC interface. I had one but gave it to Eric. BTW HP says that these drives are not supported under BASIC, HP-UX or Pascal! (at least at that time) It also says that no support is planned for any HP 9000 system. Also they state that these drives are obselete and recommend that people use the newer and more economical 7907A drives. I looked under the 7907 description to see if it would read the 7906 media but it doesn't say. However the 7907 tape media was 20.5 Mb vs 9.8Mb so it is different. The 7908 drive is described as 16.6 Mb fixed disk and a "1/4 inch "88140" shared controller tape drive". Most (all?) of the newer drives that incorporate tape drives are also described as 88180 tape drives so the drive and media used in the earlier 7906 and 7907 are different from the later stuff. Joe From dholland at woh.rr.com Sat May 3 14:50:01 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra In-Reply-To: <200305030133.h431XExs061733@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <1051921712.25202.16.camel@crusader> <200305030133.h431XExs061733@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <1051991288.1553.59.camel@crusader> On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 21:33, Frank McConnell wrote: > David Holland wrote: > > I've had it for about a week now, and just can't get used to funky > > arrangement of the arrow keys in the middle, and the F keys on the left > > just throws my Unreal Tournament gaming off. > > So we know it's one of the sort with the Omni key instead of an > inverted-T layout. > > If it's an Ultra, it should also have the function keys across the > top. It does. Across the top, and on the left. > > > Anyways, I gather these things were something of a 'gotta have it' > > keyboard at one time, and were bloody expensive. > > Not that bad. In the mid-1990s you could get them for about $70, > which seems expensive for a keyboard, but for those of us who really > wanted the control key to be to the left of A and didn't want to have > to fuss with driver software to make it happen, it was well worth it. > > If you want expensive, go check out the Avant Stellar! That is > reportedly the modern Northgate OmniKey, and it sells for about $150. Saw'm for as much as 198$ a couple of places.. (ouch) > > > I gather it might of came with some extra keycaps when it was new, so > > you could move around control/shift. I do not have those. > > So, some questions to help folks ID what you've got. > > Is the control key to the left of A? No, control-key is in the bottom left hand corner. (I guess its not quite identical to the picture on northgate-keyboard-repair.com - My bad.) The bottom corner keys are laid out something like so: Capslock Shift Control [Grey < & > key] Alt > > Where are the switches? Poking out the back, or hidden under the > "OmniKey" flip-top lid, or not present at all (flip the lid up, see > nothing)? Under the lid are a set of dip switches and what looks to be a orange reset switch. It claims to be Rev 7.03 on the back of the keyboard. > > Not present at all means it is a late-model programmable keyboard. > They had firmware bugs, and the "fix" was "remove the EEPROM that > holds the key remappings". > > > Anyone want it? (I think this is at least on-topic) > > Somebody better! I've got a couple of follow up's already. (Hopefully they're paying attention when I say: I'll find out what shipping/postage is to their respective zip code(s) on Monday, once I can figure out what kinda box I can find) David > > -Frank McConnell From marvin at rain.org Sat May 3 15:11:00 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Soroc IQ120 Chip Problem Message-ID: <3EB421E4.C90CAEF2@rain.org> I finally started digging in to find out what was wrong with a couple Soroc IQ120s. The first one was easy; just a memory chip (2102) that went bad. The second one is a bit tougher. I *think* I have the problem narrowed down to a Signetics 82S201 PLA, and therein lies the problem. Is there a replacement chip available, and is the coding of the chip available? If the coding is not availble, can I just go through a counter on the input and record the output states to come up with the chip programming? Needless to say, I am not real familiar with these devices :). There are two of these devices in parallel, and when I pull out the supected bad one (one makes no difference, pulling the other one starts the screen display again), the screen starts to work again. My suspicion is that the two are in parallel to increase the drive to the other chips. There are probably more problems since I don't hear the beep when the unit is turned on. The keyboard unit has already been checked out on the working Soroc. Any thoughts or comments? From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 16:49:00 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 Message-ID: Hi All, I've just acquired an HP 9000 series R332. In the back of it amongst the usual HPIB / GPIB cards there is a card marked Infotek Systems AD200 Converter, \ Assy 900-13992 rev E - I assume that this is some sort of data acquisition card. Does anyone have details of the card specification / the software required to drive it? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 3 19:08:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP9915 Message-ID: I've recently had an HP9915 on the bench. This, as many of you are aware, is related to the HP85, but it's in a metal case with no printer, keyboard (although there is a keyboard connector on the back) or monitor (again, there's a composite video output on the back). Some details of the insides : Almost all the HP ICs are the same as those in the HP85 (CPU, CRT controller, RAM controller, Keyboard controller, ROMs, I/O buffer, even the printer controller is there). Much of the rest of the circuitry is similar to that in the HP85 (PSU, etc). There's an extra 8048 microcontroller that handles the power-on reset, self-test and autostart keys, and the front panel LEDs. It connects to the HP CPU via an I/O Translator IC, which is the same as the one used in the HP85 interface modules. Also linked to this microcontroller is a PCB that can contain up to 8 2716 (or 2732 if you rearrange the links) EPROMs. I have no idea (yet) how to format data to put in said EPROMs. The large board in the bottom of the case contains the PSU, and much of the logic circuitry. There are 6 'option ROM' spaces at the back of this board, identical to those in an HP85 ROM drawer. The PSU provides the same voltages, in much the same way, as the HP85 CPU. The output of the transformer is rectified and fed t oa switching converter (U30, 3524 is the controller IC) to provide +12V, -5V and -12V. This poweres a second switching converter to provide +5V. The +6V is obtained by a linear regulator. There is a crowbar (Q4) which will short out the input to the first PSU if the +12V line rises too high. This will then blow the mains fuse (something to check if the mains fuse blows at switch-on -- maybe Q5, PIC645, the first chopper is shorted). Another PCB plugged into the left edge of the main PCB contains the video RAM, printer chip (used here for the timers, I suspect), buffers/clamp networks for the keyboard and control connectors, a state machine to generate the video sync signals, and the composite video mixer. It has been suggested this is the 'operator interface' mentioned on the options box on the back, but I think not. I think this must be a standard part of the machine, and that the 'operator interface' is the keypad on the front. Talking of the keypad, the top 4 keys are connected as the k1-k4 keys of the HP85 keyboard. The blue key is connected as the shift key. On the back of the machine (actually on the vertically-mounted PCB that I mentioned a couple of paragraphs back) are 2 D connectors. The pinouts seem to be : Keyboard (DB25) 1 : chassis ground 2 : R0X (this is Row 0 output, buffered) 3 : R1X 4 : R2X 5 : R3X 6 : R4X 7 : Logic ground 8 : Logic Ground 9 : R5X 10 : R6X 11 : R7X 12 : R8X 13 : R9X 14 : C0X (Column 0 input, buffered) 15 : C1X 16 : C2X 17 : C3X 18 : C4X 19 : C5X 20 : C6X 21 : C7X 22 : KSX/ (Shift key, connect to logic ground to shift) 23 : KCX/ (Control key, ditto) 24 : KCLX/ (Caps lock key, ditto) 25 : SpkrX (Speaker output, return to logic ground) Control connector, DA15 1 : LED0X (High if top LED on frontpanel is on) 2 : LED1X 3 : LED2X 4 : LED3X 5 : LED4X 6 : LED5X 7 : LED6X 8 : LED7X 9 : RunX/ (RUN LED output) 10 : TestX (selftest LED output) 11 ; PWOX (Power OK output) 12 : Logic ground 13 : KeyStartX/ (ground for autostart key) 14 : KeyStX/ (ground for self test key) 15 : Chassis ground. The keyboard matrix would appear to be the same as that in the HP85 OK< a couple of questions 1) What is the impedance of the speaker in the keyboard (presumably between SpkrX and logic ground? 80 ohms? 2) What is the OD of the tape drive roller? Mine has decayed (what a suprise), and I need to rebuild it. It should be the same as the roller in the HP85, the HP9825, HP9815, etc.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 3 19:12:52 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) In-Reply-To: <20030503005159.MVT15637.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at May 2, 3 08:51:33 pm Message-ID: > I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old bug autosticks > came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor > built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled > newsgroups), touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your > left foot. It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to > maintain. This sounds like the Morris 'Manumatic' that was fitted to some of their cars in the 1960s (I think). It was a part electrical, part mechanical system that automattically controlled the clutch _and engine speed_ when changing gear (shifting). There were synchroniser contacts in the clutch unit, a vacuum servo to operate the clutch release mechansism, and another servo that connected to the throttle linkage to control the engine speed. I have the shop manual (I would, right :-)) and it contains considerable detail as to how it works. Another strange transmission was the Renault Electroshift. This had a speed sensor which was connected to a relay box. That controlled an electromagnetic clutch (from what I can tell, this was not an electrical release for a conventional clutch), and a motor/solenoid assembly connected to the gear shift forks in the gearbox. I have the shop manual for that too, but it's a module-swapper guide with no details as to what goes on inside the units. I would love to obtain an old relay box so I could pull it apart and reverse-engineer it (for interest, of course). Finally, for strange transmissions, there's the 'Roverdrive', fitted to the Rover 105R. It consists of (starting at the engine) : A torque converter. A convetnional clutch. A 2 speed and reverse (I think) gearbox. An overdrive unit, which is controlled automatically by a speed sensor. > Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on an > "automanualic" using clutches instead of converter. I'm watching > that with keen interest. It's there in www.allpar.com As I'v ejust mentioned, automatics without a torque converter were built by Renault in the 1960s. I wonder what they've changed... > > LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians > > squirting into the combustion chamber. :-) That is surely the best use for politicians :-). It gives a whole new meaning to the term 'hot air engine'... -tony From chuck at mail.schillernet.us Sat May 3 20:00:00 2003 From: chuck at mail.schillernet.us (chuck@mail.schillernet.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Another rubber capstan turns to mush Message-ID: <3229.209.96.179.94.1052009929.squirrel@mail.schillernet.us> Hello All - bah, was just playing with my QIC drive, a WangTek 5150ES (Using dos tar!) and halfway thru the first listing tape stops. Turns out the rubber what drives the tape has gotten very soft. Anybody have a box full of cheap replacements? (pic here: http://mail.schillernet.us/wangtek/ ). I'd like to keep it working, but paying for depot service ( like http://www.eds-sales.com/EDS-QICPG.htm ) on a 150Mb drive is, uh, a questionable investment. --Chuck From jrasite at eoni.com Sat May 3 21:45:00 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1) References: Message-ID: <3EB47E5E.4050201@eoni.com> Tony Duell wrote: >Another strange transmission was the Renault Electroshift. This had a >speed sensor which was connected to a relay box. That controlled an >electromagnetic clutch (from what I can tell, this was not an electrical >release for a conventional clutch), and a motor/solenoid assembly >connected to the gear shift forks in the gearbox. I have the shop manual >for that too, but it's a module-swapper guide with no details as to what >goes on inside the units. I would love to obtain an old relay box so I >could pull it apart and reverse-engineer it (for interest, of course) > > > Used to own an R-10 Renault with that transmission. Another interesting variant was the American Motor's E-stick. From Canadian Motoring.com: "In the transmission department, AMC had the industry's widest range of offerings. The Classic could have a regular three-speed manual, with optional overdrive; a three speed automatic; an "E-stick" semi-automatic transmission in which there was no clutch pedal (when the shift lever was touched it automatically disengaged the clutch, and the driver just moved the lever from gear to gear); and "Twin-Stick" overdrive engaged by a separate console-mounted lever." Drove one once... Quite the odd beast. Jim From rdd at rddavis.org Sat May 3 22:24:00 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Another rubber capstan turns to mush In-Reply-To: <3229.209.96.179.94.1052009929.squirrel@mail.schillernet.us> References: <3229.209.96.179.94.1052009929.squirrel@mail.schillernet.us> Message-ID: <20030504035307.GB78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe chuck@mail.schillernet.us, from writings of Sat, May 03, 2003 at 08:58:49PM -0400: > Hello All - bah, was just playing with my QIC drive, a WangTek > 5150ES (Using dos tar!) and halfway thru the first listing > tape stops. Turns out the rubber what drives the tape has gotten > very soft. Anybody have a box full of cheap replacements? Oops... it appears that you didn't use the /LCV (lowest capstan viscosity) flag ;-) to prevent the tar command from attempting to turn the rubber capstan into a tarry substance. :-( -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun May 4 00:27:00 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format In-Reply-To: Joe's message of "Fri, 02 May 2003 17:24:58" References: <3.0.6.16.20030502172458.0fb71dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200305040510.h445ANYX089854@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > You asked me about this a few days ago but I've been busy and > forgot to reply. I have a document called "HP Flexible Disk Drive > Command Set" that I'm pretty sure contains a description of the > Amigo command set. It's an appendix to the HP 9114 disk drive > service manual. It's 36 pages long. I can send you a copy or I'll > send it to Al K. or anyone else that wants to scan it and post it on > the web somewhere. I think Joe sent me a copy of this a while back. Anyway, I fished it out of the pile in the living room and fed it to the scanner, with the result being at (1183KB) for the time being. Joe, are you sure this was in the 9114 service manual? Not the 9121 or 9133? I'm just thinking it wouldn't make much sense being in an HP-IL drive manual. -Frank McConnell From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Sun May 4 01:33:00 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: 77/68 computer (was Seeking good home...) Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C08979@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Andy, I guess the Electronics and Computing Monthly magazine and Stirling Microsystems must have based the design on the ACC one. The ECM design was on 8" square boards too, single sided tracks (you had to run loads of wire straps!). I still have all the documentation for it, paper-based at the moment. There was a choice between a 40x24 monochrome display board implemented entirely in 4000-series CMOS (which I built), or a newer colour board with 64K RAM and a Thomson EF9365 Graphic Display Processor. I didn't build that since the cost of 64k RAM in 1982 was prohibitive! That processor could draw at 1 million pixels per second - impressive for 1982. Some of the documentation is published by Newbear (Newbury Electronics), and some by Stirling. One day I'll get around to scanning all the docs in for general availibility. paul -----Original Message----- From: Andy Holt [mailto:andyh@andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 19 April 2003 20:40 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Seeking good home(s) for old hardware [UK] > Getting on 20 years ago I built a 6809 based computer from a > series running in the UK magazine "Electronics & Computing > Monthly", called the 77/68 system. This was based on the SWTP > stuff but was marketed through a company called Stirling > Microsystems in Baker Street, London. Does anyone else here > remember that system? ... As I remember it, the 77/68 was published in the ACC newsletter (not in E&CM) - the original was a rather neat design by Mike Lord on 8" square PCBs. I built a seriously extended one of these (which eventually "fissioned" into two complete systems - connected by a homebrew network that was a sort of very cheap slow ethernet). Some boards were from the original design - others I designed and implemented myself ... most notably including a 6809 board (the original was a 6800) with the only technical data being a pin-out and some other vague descriptions in a Byte article. It was a couple of years of successful use before I discovered that I was feeding the clock in through the "wrong" pin! Amongst the peripherals that this system acquired was a large Calcomp plotter surplus from the University mainframe. Unfortunately most of the hardware and documents have now been recycled or worse. Andy From sieler at allegro.com Sun May 4 01:36:15 2003 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Message Board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EAFAE2A.6042.1ED9AF5C@localhost> Re: > - the ability to support off topic conversations along with on- > topic ones without burdening those not interested in one or the other > - the ability to easily search archives for topics of interest > - the ability to keep ?threads? of discussion together > - the ability to categorize these threads for easier research That's all easily achievable with the current CC-TALK/CC-TECH. ...just use a small prefix (from a small set of group endorsed ones). E.g.: OT: iraqi playing cards where "OT" means "Off Topic" > result is now available for use at www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum. A > link is also available from my www.vintage-computer.com front page. The inherent problem with the current vcforum web interface is the large amount of extra work that people need to do to use it. With CC-TALK, all the current posts are visible (one per line) on my screen. With vcforum, I have to scroll the index web page to see what sections have new posts. For each section with a new post, I have to click on it (deciding whether or not to click-into-new-window or click-into-same-window), just to see the list of topics in that section. Then I have to potentially scroll (not now, but later, as more topics are posted) to see which topics have new posts ... the end result it that it takes me 10 to 20 times longer to "catch up" as it does with CC-TALK/CC-TECH. Could this be fixed? Yes. There could be an alternate presentation page which lists all new posts, one per line ... sortable by topic or date-posted. I should be able to quickly mark any I wish as "ignore" (aka "delete" in a mail reader). However, most web based forums use the server to accomplish updates, as opposed to doing more work just behind the glass (e.g., java to collect the updates/markings/wishes and then upload the set to the server). That's easier, of course, but clearly makes for more work and/or slower response for the user. One person's comments, anyway :) -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From mrfusion at uranium.vaxpower.org Sun May 4 01:38:59 2003 From: mrfusion at uranium.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: FS: Symbolics 3650 LISP machine Message-ID: so, im thinning the herd some more, and have had to make a tough decision... to keep the lispm or not... and ive decided i need to find it a new home. so, i have for sale, a Symbolics 3650 Lisp Machine. While some of the gear has been given away, the lispm is one i paid a good bit of money for (i actually bought it surplus from Symbolics!) and so this one is for sale. It'll go on ebay soon if there's no interest here. The machine is fully operational , has a 750 MB disk, 4 megawords (36 bit word size) of memory, and has Genera 8.3 (the latest version as of 2001) installed. Some pictures of it can be found at the url listed on the bottom.. just scroll about 2/3 of the way down. I'm asking $800.00. It's in Pittsburgh, PA, btw. happy hacking, Isildur http://www.vaxpower.org/~isildur/computers.html From nickmiller at charter.net Sun May 4 01:42:16 2003 From: nickmiller at charter.net (Nick Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Significance of an Apple II w/ raised power light? Message-ID: <006d01c30f7d$5822a520$7a00a8c0@themillers> Hello, I have an original Apple II with a keyboard power on light that is raised above the case and sits in green piece of plastic. I've seen this style of Apple II in old advertisements but have not been able to find out the significance of this variant if there is one. I'm finally getting around to working on my website again and would like to address this feature, any comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Nick From dwoyciesjes at comast.net Sun May 4 01:45:01 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: FS/FT: VaxStation 3100 m38; C-128; Atari 800 References: Message-ID: <3EB149D7.22D3161A@comast.net> David --- Sounds good. I'll get it boxed up, weighed, and let you know what the cost is. Hopefully within a week. Feel free to e-mail me if I seem to be "lost". :) David Betz wrote: > > Did you ever find a buyer for your Atari 800? How about $10 plus > shipping? > > On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 09:28 AM, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Well, the Vax and C-128 are sold, but the Atari is still available... > > > > David Woyciesjes wrote: > >> > >> Well, in the process of going through my computer room, and > >> sorting > >> stuff out to keep, and get rid of; I've decided to get rid of 3 of my > >> classics. They've sat around for too long, going unused. So... > >> > > --- > >> --- C-128 & Atari 800 > >> - both have 5 1/4 floppy drives, power cables, joystick > >> - Bunch of games and apps > >> > >> Best offer. Pick up in New Haven CT preferred (especially for > >> the Vax). > >> The C-128 and Atari should'nt be that bad to ship, though. > >> Cash, money order, PayPal. For trade, I'm looking for SCSI & > >> IDE HDDs > >> over 4GB, true-parity memory, PC100/133 DIMMs, P-III 800 CPU, 19" > >> monitor... > >> > >> -- > > > > -- > > --- Dave WOyciesjes > > --- ICQ# 905818 -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From lgwalker at mts.net Sun May 4 01:47:51 2003 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Where can one find 2.5 inch floppy disks, and other odd Message-ID: <3EB10DB9.29372.4321F1CE@localhost> A reply to an old thread, but since I'm no longer subscribed to the list, but occasionally monitoring it, understandable. I have an old Roland PR100 sequencer. It and some other audio equipment (Akai 612 ?) as well as a Smith- Corona word processor used a 2.8 Quick Disk (flippy). I found a company that still sells the disks: http://www.esticortland.com Part #061838 but not cheap at $12.25 Lawrence ------- End of forwarded message ------- lgwalker@ mts.net From metallicaman1234 at earthlink.net Sun May 4 01:51:02 2003 From: metallicaman1234 at earthlink.net (scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: 286SLT powerconfig Message-ID: <000e01c310fd$c828e740$9d63fea9@doom> what is the pin input power configuration of the 286SLT laptop and how many volts/amps is it. Also what about the battery pin config and its voltages? From carlin at nauticom.net Sun May 4 01:53:48 2003 From: carlin at nauticom.net (Ken Carlin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: dnd Message-ID: <000801c3103f$4ae4d280$6401a8c0@nauticom.net> Hello: I have been searching for the source code to DND for quite a long time now, and I ran across this post you made at some time in the past. Would you happen to have worked out the details in order to distribute the source code? I used to play this game in college many years ago, and it would mean quite a lot to me to get it up and running again. Thanks for any help that you can offer, Ken Carlin >From what I've read, banned inside of DEC is the best description :^) It >uses creatures and spells straight from D&D. Yep, I know exactly which one you speak of... I have the sources for the pascal version of the game, along with the data files, preserved for almost 20 years. I have ported the game to C using curses (actually, it was mostly a brute-force translation from the pascal) and have it running at least as well as the original pascal version (which was incomplete) at home on my Alpha PWS running Linux. I've been in contact with one of the people who was responsible for writing the pascal version, and am trying to get ahold of all the others so that I can figure out how to write up a 'copyright' page with proper attributions. >Basically all I know is what's written up at the following webpage: >http://www.io.com/~adastra/rancourt/dnd/ >It was written by Daniel Lawrence, started on the PDP-10, was ported to >RSTS/E part way through, and after that ported to VAX/VMS. I played it on RSTS/E when I was working at Parker St (DEC) in Maynard back in 1977. Actually, the pascal version was also built on RSTS using, I believe, the OMSI compiler, and ran on RT-11. Dan has apparently given permission for any and all versions of the game to exist with his blessing, but since the source I have had a copyright which is problematic (since it doesn't mention him), I have to try to do the right thing. >I grabbed the source off of the web page above, and it almost works. In >fact it might work, IF, I could figure out exactly how to build it. BTW, >the "TOPS-20" executable, looks to be a VMS V1.0 executable. If/when I can resolve the issues of attribution, I'd love to make it available... should I even bother with sourceforge? :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 4 01:56:36 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > something home for me (TRS80 MIII) some baggage 'handlers' > forgot that glass > > breaks when its dropped :( > > I beleive the original packing box for the M3/M4 had the following > printed on it : 'Do not drop, or CRT may implode' ... Mind you , I once Oddly enough that's exactly what happened......grrrr..... > had a CRT sent by Royal Mail (who are good at wrecking things!) in a > cardboard box with _no_ packing -- just rattling around in the box, and > it arrived in onve piece. How, I will never know... Strange, the only time I've ever received a CRT (black Microvitec to match the Sinclair QL) it was nicely packed and it STILL arrived broken. Well, not *just* broken, smashed completely in fact. Bless parcelforce's cotton socks. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun May 4 01:59:27 2003 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Inquiry about Classic Computers Collectors List In-Reply-To: <20030430155149.GA12878@subatomix.com> References: <109.22f7a995.2bde2809@aol.com> <109.22f7a995.2bde2809@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030502082237.00a98178@mail.n.ml.org> Ooh, Seagate, very helpful definitely one to keep in the address book =) -John At 11:51 AM 4/30/2003, you wrote: >On Monday, April 28, 2003, ReCarDeaux@aol.com wrote: > > From 1977 to 1991, I worked for General Electric, Honeywell, Magnetic > > Peripherals, Control Data, Imprimis, and Seagate. I am interested in > > staying in touch with people/computers of that era. Is your list for me? > > > > Richard Oklahoma City, OK 73118 Email ReCarDeaux@aol.com > >I'm not exactly of that era (I'm 24), but I love machines that are. I'm >also located in the OKC Metro. I live in Norman and work for a large >company near Classen and Western. I have a medium-sized collection of >mostly DEC PDP-11s, VAXen, and old Suns. I also help administrate this >list. > >I think you would have an enjoyable time as a list member. There are two >ways to subscribe. The first is cctalk, which is unmoderated and delivered >immediately. The second is cctech, which is moderated for topic and >delivered after an average delay of 12 hours. Please be aware that both >share the same on-topic messages, so you should only subscribe to one of the >two. Subscribing to both will get you nothing but duplicate messages. > >See our web site at: http://www.classiccmp.org/ > >It would be great to have someone else from my area on the list. AFAIK the >closest existing subscriber is in Fort Worth. > >-- >Jeffrey Sharp ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org Sun May 4 02:02:11 2003 From: skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org (Barry Skidmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: DEC RL02 -vs- RL02-A Message-ID: <1051889832.1783.246.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> Could someone tell what the differences are between a DEC RL02 -vs- a RL02-A, or point me to the appropriate web site. Thanks very much, Barry -- Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's -- From philip at awale.qc.ca Sun May 4 02:04:56 2003 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: FS/FT Items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30-Apr-2003 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 philip@awale.qc.ca wrote: > >> >> On 29-Apr-2003 Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> > I'm looking for either QBUS parts, or $5 + shipping for each of the >> > following.. Trying to clean out my room before I have to move in a >> > few >> > months. >> > >> > - SparcStation 20, 32MB ram, 1x50MHz proc, floppy, 2GB HDD. >> > I have 2 of these to get rid of. >> >> I'd be interested in one of these. Or have they be claimed already. >> Could you give me an estimate on shipping to Qu?bec (J0B 2C0) ? > > All of the sparcstation 20's have been taken. Ah well. -Philip From dave at kaleidosoft.com Sun May 4 02:08:02 2003 From: dave at kaleidosoft.com (Dave Babcock) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Virus alert that may effect us all References: <20030425192509.GB19615@subatomix.com> <3EA9935E.1000203@eoni.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030425150541.031ebab0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c310e4$861de580$a77ba8c0@merlin> In the same vein, I learned that there's an even more advanced virus -- D-nile -- where you can't even admit that you're infected. Thanks, DaveB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Virus alert that may effect us all > Beware of C-nile VIRUS > Just got this in from a reliable source. It seems that there is a virus out > there called the C-nile Virus that even the most advanced programs from > Norton and McAfee cannot take care of, so be warned, it appears to affect > those users born before 1958! Symptoms of C-nile Virus - Causes you to: > -- send same e-mail twice. > -- send blank e-mail. > -- send to wrong person. > -- send it back to person who sent it to you. > -- forget to attach the attachment. > -- hit "SEND" before you've finished the .......... From cctech at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 02:10:50 2003 From: cctech at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: MicroVAX4000/5050A drive sleds In-Reply-To: References: <20030503022228.GA78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3EB39A46.22606.5521ED1@localhost> Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed - anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these things ; the chasis has a drive drive backplane at the top with 4 edge connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in. I need to knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches. Unless anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?... Ohhh, wonder if the MDS pils of docs has any details on this - off to look now :) ta greg From bob.c at dial.pipex.com Sun May 4 02:13:34 2003 From: bob.c at dial.pipex.com (Bob Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Gnomes Message-ID: <004b01c31181$56d5ee60$0200a8c0@Centaur> Yes I remember Bob Clark (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/014196.html) because I am he, and I remember Peter Turnbull too. This is getting silly, because this week I have relocated Bill Olivier (CommunITel) and Lindsay Reid (Viewfax 258), mostly by accident. Best regards, Bob From bob.c at dial.pipex.com Sun May 4 02:16:20 2003 From: bob.c at dial.pipex.com (Bob Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Fw: Viewfax 258 Message-ID: <008a01c31185$b5abbec0$0200a8c0@Centaur> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Clark To: mel@pullen.com ; danny@spesh.com ; Glyn Philips ; Lindsay Reid Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: Viewfax 258 My god what a week this has been for finding old friends. First Bill Olivier, then Sue wakes me up this morning (or afternoon possibly) - there's a Lindsay Reid on the phone, would I like to talk to him? What, talk to Lindsay for the first time in 15 years, yawn oh ok then if I must. This three days after we had complained that Lindsay had gone completely unfindable on the web, and was obviously dead. What we didn't do of course was try www.viewfax.com. Lindsay was ringing to ask if anyone remembers or better still knows a man from the olden pirate radio days called Richard Fox-Davies, aka Dick. This name rings strong bells with me, but I can't remember why. Anyone? (My extensive researches this afternoon reveal that his books for kids are still popular in Western Australia, assuming this is the same guy: http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au:90/search/aFox-Davies/afox+davies/1,3,25,B/e xact&FF=afox+davies+dick&1,2 ) This may be a justified cause for an NTK (http://www.ntk.net/) appeal Dan, because... ... the good news is that Lindsay still has Viewfax 258 backed up on 5.25" floppy disks. There's quite a few disks, and we'd have to sort through them somewhat to find the Gnomey bits. But Lindsay is happy to loan his disks to Glyn the man with the archaic hardware, all he needs is his address. Then he'd like his disks back. I figure we could probably blow the lot onto the first quarter inch of a CD for him. So our dream may come true and we'll have both the Gnome on Prestel and the Gnome at Home splurged all over our shiny new web site. Meanwhile, please admire my wonderfully wonky first-stab character set one more time... Bob PS Late-breaking news, Peter Turnbull rediscovered too: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/014196.html [demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of viewfax7.jpg] From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Sun May 4 09:00:00 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format Message-ID: Hi Frank, Thanks for scanning and posting this document. I've had a brief read through and it may be what I need - I'll have a deeper look this evening. It looks as though the general form of the commands is very similar to CS80 format but the commands themselves are different - I wonder why HP did this? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=186&DI=1059 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 4 09:24:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030504094305.38a7b50a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Peter, What kind of terminal(s) does it have? It sounds like it might be a A/D or perhaps a D/A card. HP made some A/Ds I think I have some docs on it somewhere. I used to have one the cards I never got around doing anything with it. I never even pulled it out of the machine so I don't know if it was made by HP or if it was made by someone else. IIRC it had a row of screw terminal on the back side of it. I looked through the manual for the HP A/D card at one time and I don't think it took any special software. The system treated it somewhat like a GPIO card but the digital value that was input was converted from the analog input. If you output a digital value to the card it selected the channel number (12 channels as I recall) and range. If you think your card may be a A/D, I'll try to find the docs that I have. I forgot to ask, is this a DIO card? Joe At 09:47 PM 5/3/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I've just acquired an HP 9000 series R332. In the back of it amongst the >usual HPIB / GPIB cards there is a card marked Infotek Systems AD200 >Converter, \ Assy 900-13992 rev E - I assume that this is some sort of data >acquisition card. > >Does anyone have details of the card specification / the software required >to drive it? > >Cheers > >Peter Brown > >_________________________________________________________________ >It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! >http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 4 09:25:41 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format In-Reply-To: <200305040510.h445ANYX089854@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20030502172458.0fb71dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030504101923.3d3f85fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:10 PM 5/3/03 -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: >Joe wrote: >> You asked me about this a few days ago but I've been busy and >> forgot to reply. I have a document called "HP Flexible Disk Drive >> Command Set" that I'm pretty sure contains a description of the >> Amigo command set. It's an appendix to the HP 9114 disk drive >> service manual. It's 36 pages long. I can send you a copy or I'll >> send it to Al K. or anyone else that wants to scan it and post it on >> the web somewhere. > >I think Joe sent me a copy of this a while back. Anyway, I fished it >out of the pile in the living room and fed it to the scanner, with the >result being at (1183KB) >for the time being. > >Joe, are you sure this was in the 9114 service manual? Not the 9121 >or 9133? I'm just thinking it wouldn't make much sense being in an >HP-IL drive manual. After thinking about it, I think you're right. I had forgoteen that I had borrowed most of this book from a local dealer and copied it. It's titled "HP's 3 1/2-inch Flexible Disk Drive Service Documentation". This book seems to be designed to include all of the floppy drive manuals in one book. It has tabs for several items including the 9114, the command set docs and one with a manual titled "Section 1, The 3 1/2-inch Disk Drive". That section covers the bare drive used in most of these drive units. As I recall you had to order each section of the manual seaparately and you got an appropriate tab with each section that you bought. Most sections look like they were written seaparately so that they could be added into any appropriate drive manual. I also have sections that I don't have tabs for. One of them is for the HP 9123, another is for the floppy disk drive section of the OLD WIDE HP 9133 and another is for the HP 9121 drives. FWIW I ordered the 9114 SM from HP and it cost about $50! AND it wasn't very complete. It had no service info on the bare drive. I think the search for that is what lead me to the local HP dealer (probably THE last independent HP dealer.) He didn't have the 9114 docs but wanted them so I made a copy of them for him and copied everything else that he had in his book. BTW while looking at this manuals while replying to this I found a dection in the 9114 manual that says that it respondes to the SS-80 and FILBERT protocalls. I've heard some people on the HP Museum website say that Filbert was the code name of the 9114 during developement but it appears that it's a protocall and not a code name. Thanks for scanning and posting the command set docs. That's something that's been needed for some time. Joe > >-Frank McConnell From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Sun May 4 09:35:01 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: AMIGO command set and HFS disk format Message-ID: Hi Joe, > It's definitely an Amigo drive then. I've found some other docs that confirm this. >My initial thought was the Amigo wouldn't suppport HFS but after >some >thought >I don't see any reason that it wouldn't. When I catalog the drive with a device that only supports CS80 (my HP 3562A Spectrum analyser) I see only one file (called SYSTEM_SA). When I attach the drive to an HP 9000 332 CPU, it finds the SYSTEM_SA file and then displays something like 'Secondary loader v 56.6' - I assume that this is the part that provides support for HFS. Once the secondary loader has done its stuff the 9000 332 will catalog the drive as usual and displays HFS as the filesystem. >bytes is not the same as the pair that would be returned by a CS80 >drive. Ignore my comments on this - my mistake. The numbers come from the 'Identify' CS80 command that is used at power on by the system controller to identify devices attached to the HPIB bus. The values 1 and 15 are consistent with the 9134x >That's odd. Is the drive bad? Most systems identify a 9134 as a 9133 >with >no floppy drive. I should have been more specific - the drive that fails is the 9134x - it fails because it is an amigo drive not a CS80. Thanks for the info Joe. I need to explain this one more fully! The HP 7907 is a 20.5MB (fixed) + 20.5MB (removable) HPIB controlled disk drive. The removable cartridge is a 9 inch by 9 inch by 1 inch box containing a single 8 inch platter. The drive wieghs about 60 lbs - it comes in the same width box as an HP 9000 300. It looks as though the removable portion of the drive is primarily for backup as separate panel controls are provided for Fixed->Removable and Removable-> fixed. I have one of these - I've just been using it for testing the CS80 / LIF reader software that I've been writing. The HP 7906 is a 5 MB (fixed) + (5 MB) (removable) (I think) MAC controlled HDD. I have one attached to my 5451C Fourier Analyser. It uses a 13037 interface card in the HP 1000 computer plus an external controller marked 13037A. I think that the controller can control up to 8 drives at once. The removable cartridge is around 17 inches in diameter. The drive weighs a lot - it takes two people to lift. My problem is that I have software on 7906 removable cartridges that I need to back-up. If I can find an HPIB controlled version of the 7906 then I may be able to support it with the HPIB reader software. Do you have any more information about the 12745C/D MAC to HPIB converter? - this sounds as though it will do the job! I've down-loaded the command set documentation that Frank has scanned etc. It looks as though it may be what I'm looking for re. amigo command set. Interestingly the docs themselves do not seem to use the word amigo anywhere?? As usual Joe, many thanks for taking the time to look this stuff up! - hopefully we should all end up with an application that will let us back-up and share our age-ing software. Do you have any info on how HFS works? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From marvin at rain.org Sun May 4 11:29:00 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: Northstar File Transfer from PC Message-ID: <3EB53F67.E9BE3D7F@rain.org> What is the procedure for transfering files to and from a PC using N* DOS? For text from the N* to the PC, no problem, just print it out to the terminal (a DOS machine) and capture it. But what about going the other way, wanting to get information back to the N*? Any information appreciated! ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From marvin at rain.org Sun May 4 12:11:00 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: AS/400 Operations Navigator Message-ID: <3EB5494D.9D15E9DE@rain.org> I have the CD titled "AS/400 Operations Navigator" using Client Access for Windows 95/NT and the Manual "Client Access for Windows 95/NT - Setup V3R2M0". Since I have absolutely no use for it, $5.00 including US shipping to whoever wants it. ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 12:58:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030504101923.3d3f85fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe" at May 4, 3 10:19:23 am Message-ID: > BTW while looking at this manuals while replying to this I found a > dection in the 9114 manual that says that it respondes to the SS-80 and > FILBERT protocalls. I've heard some people on the HP Museum website say > that Filbert was the code name of the 9114 during developement but it > appears that it's a protocall and not a code name. As I understand it, the codename for the 9114 was Pompeii. So called because it was designed to fit under the Thinkjet printer, codenamed Vesuvius. And that code name came from the way the Thinkjet works, by boiling the ink -- a bit like a miniture volcano... The 82161 tape drive was code-named Filbert. The protocol used by that drive became known as the Filbert protocol, and was a de-facto standard for HPIL mass storage devices. The 9114 uses Modified Filbert Protocol -- modified in that it responds to device-dependant commands to report the drive's size, etc. For example, the HP71 attempts to use that command to determine the size of a mass storage device. If the command it not accepted, it assumes the devices is a 82161 with 512 blocks. The HP41 just asseums that all devices are 512 blocks (!). This is documented, in part, in the HPIL IDS for the HP71, and in the HP75 NOMAS documentation (particularly the bit on MELROM). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 13:01:20 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming In-Reply-To: from "Witchy" at May 2, 3 09:51:22 am Message-ID: > > had a CRT sent by Royal Mail (who are good at wrecking things!) in a > > cardboard box with _no_ packing -- just rattling around in the box, and > > it arrived in onve piece. How, I will never know... > > Strange, the only time I've ever received a CRT (black Microvitec to match > the Sinclair QL) it was nicely packed and it STILL arrived broken. Well, not When I said 'CRT' I meant CRT, not monitor. This was just the glass thing, dropped in a a cardboard box (no packing at all!) and sent by post. I still want to know how it arrived intact!!! > *just* broken, smashed completely in fact. Bless parcelforce's cotton socks. Yes, Parcelfarce are good at mangling things, aren't they :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 13:04:09 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format In-Reply-To: <200305040510.h445ANYX089854@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 3, 3 10:10:23 pm Message-ID: > I think Joe sent me a copy of this a while back. Anyway, I fished it > out of the pile in the living room and fed it to the scanner, with the > result being at (1183KB) > for the time being. > > Joe, are you sure this was in the 9114 service manual? Not the 9121 The only 9114 service manual I saw was a totally useless thing with no schematics, no pinouts, no real info at all.... Needless to say I have my own notes on fixing these drives... I do have an HP manual called something like '3.5" diskette drive service manual'. The first section covers the original Sony drives (mostly at a board-swapper level :-(). Subsequent sections cover the various units this drive was used in (I don't have a section on the 9114, but I guess it may have been optional). They include PSU schematics but not much more. Finally, there's the useful section, giving the drive command set... That's the best bit of the manual. > or 9133? I'm just thinking it wouldn't make much sense being in an > HP-IL drive manual. I thought the 9114 could use either Amigo (or maybe SS/80) or modified filbert protorcol. -tony From tarsi at binhost.com Sun May 4 13:10:01 2003 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP 9000/D210 Drive Sleds In-Reply-To: <3EB5494D.9D15E9DE@rain.org> References: <3EB5494D.9D15E9DE@rain.org> Message-ID: <200305041309.17045@210> Recently acquired an HP 9000 Model D210 server and am looking for some HD drive sleds for it, as it came drive- and sled-less. Reply offlist to avoid cruft. :) Thanks, Tarsi From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun May 4 14:35:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: <20030504193341.34008.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> I brought home an HP64000 development system today. It has the emulation pods for the 68000 and 8080A processors, an HP-IB cable plus some other odds and ends in the backpack. A peak at the back indicated that it is crammed full of cards and 128K memory. Unfortunately what it doesn't have is either software or manuals, so this is a request to the group for help in that respect. I believe that there was a ton of software originally available for this unit to support various options and development tools, and I think what I am looking for is at least the operating system on floppy so that I can boot it up. Any background material on the 64000 would also be appreciated. I was impressed by the fact that it weighs almost as much as a model 33 Teletype yet it still has a handy reinforced carrying handle on the side for those portable sessions... Regards, Dave The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Sun May 4 14:54:00 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 Message-ID: Hi Joe, I had a good look at the card last night - I'm 9(.9% certain that it is an AD card. The rear panel connector is marked MITSUMI CINCH - M57. It has an onbaord analog to digital converted type AD578ZLN - looks as though it is 12 bit 333 kHz sampling rate from the data sheet. There are two three way jumpers and a single 8-way DIP rocker switch assembly. I've no idea how to set it up.... Cheers Peter _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=186&DI=1059 From fmc at reanimators.org Sun May 4 15:27:01 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format In-Reply-To: "Peter Brown"'s message of "Sun, 04 May 2003 13:58:31 +0000" References: Message-ID: <200305042020.h44KK4ep003834@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Peter Brown" wrote: > It looks as though the general form of the commands is very similar to CS80 > format but the commands themselves are different - I wonder why HP did > this? Amigo was the project name for the computer sold as the HP 300 (not 9000 Series 300). I believe it was the first cut at designing a general protocol for communicating with storage (and maybe other) devices over HP-IB, and I think the name got stuck on the protocol as well. CS/80 came later, and I think it was informed somewhat by lessons learned from the HP 300 experience. And I think SS/80 was a sort of subset of CS/80 for lower-end storage devices. There was another protocol, CIPER, that was used for communicating with printers over HP-IB. At least that's what I remember from working on HP3000s in the 1980s. -Frank McConnell From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 4 17:54:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: My new SparcStation Message-ID: I just came from the Trenton Computer Fest... picked myself up a SparcStation 4. I probably over paid at $20 for the CPU with Solaris preloaded, a keyboard and cable, and a mouse and pad.... but since I already owned a monitor, it seemed like a fair price to have another toy to play with (really the fact that I have a 20 inch monitor for one already was the only reason I bought it. I see that monitor just about every day at work and I've been itching to get a computer to use with it, just to see what a SparcStation is like). So now my question is... anyone have any link recommendations of where to go to learn about these things? I'm about to do some googling, but I'm sure some of you already know good sites to visit. Other than that, I didn't buy anything of great interest. Just a few odds and ends of parts, like some extra mac drive sleds (25 cents each). I would have bought more stuff if I had brought a cart or something with me, but I just didn't feel like carrying everything. Next year my brother and I will be better prepared. We plan to bring a folding luggage cart each... THEN we will buy more toys. -chris From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun May 4 18:50:01 2003 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: My new SparcStation References: Message-ID: <3EB5A755.9060007@gifford.co.uk> chris wrote: > So now my question is... anyone have any link recommendations of where to > go to learn about these things? I can recommend SunHelp: http://www.sunhelp.org/ Do follow the link to "Hardware Info". But as for Sun PROM monitor images, my bookmark doesn't seem to work any more: http://lios.apana.org.au/~cdewick/data/bootroms.html But the Google cache may still have it... -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 4 19:06:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: HP site Message-ID: <000f01c31299$dd474e80$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Had anyone run into this site before? I just came across it, and there's lots of VERY kewl HP1000 stuff listed there on a CD they put out. I cant seem to figure out from the site how you get the CD, but they say it's free (at least the components). Some of the entries in the library look very interesting! Looks like they have C compilers, 8080 assemblers, etc. http://www.interex.org/tech/csl/RTE/ for an overview... click on the "CSL" link Jay West From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun May 4 22:05:00 2003 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:27 2005 Subject: PC-2 plotter gears - fixed! In-Reply-To: <000f01c31299$dd474e80$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030505030324.91363.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> I managed to fix the broken gears on my PC-2 plotter and actually print something! 1. Remove the gear from the motor shaft. 2. "Spread" the crack, apply super-thin super-glue. 3. Squeeze the gear so it glues back together. 4. Bore-out the gear hole so it's loose on the shaft. 5. Put the gear back where it's supposed to be. 6. Glue it to the shaft so it doesn't spin! This may not last more than a few hundred characters, but it's working so far... Steve. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 4 23:44:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay Message-ID: <02d501c312c0$b2035710$210bdd40@oemcomputer> This ST Falcon goes for over $300. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewitem&item=2725518828 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 4 23:48:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Brainiac goes for over $300 Message-ID: <02de01c312c1$261ae230$210bdd40@oemcomputer> Check it out at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewitem&item=2725013336 From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 5 01:04:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Amiga video Message-ID: <000801c312ca$e92adce0$0500fea9@game> Anybody have a cheap 390682-01 amiga to vga adapter or know where I can get one? I am trying to use a NEC 3DS monitor on my Amiga A1200 to free up my 1084 monitor for my A500 and C128. I tried using a custom cable from IEC but it doesnt sync all the time (its just a wire thru while the silver amiga part has a buffer chip inside). From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Mon May 5 03:17:00 2003 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030505081543.GA1562@kungfu.thinktank.org> On Sun, May 04, 2003 at 07:52:58PM +0000, Peter Brown wrote: > > There are two three way jumpers and a single 8-way DIP rocker switch > assembly. I've no idea how to set it up.... > The rocker switch is probably for select code and interrupt level. If you need to change those settings you might want to improvise from: http://www.blobulent.com/hp300/peripherals/ Select code needs to be unique, interrupt levels are shared. -- jht From chuck at mail.schillernet.us Mon May 5 08:22:00 2003 From: chuck at mail.schillernet.us (Chuck Swiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Another rubber capstan turns to mush In-Reply-To: <20030504035307.GB78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <3229.209.96.179.94.1052009929.squirrel@mail.schillernet.us> <20030504035307.GB78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <1052140850.1044.4.camel@dell1> On Sat, 2003-05-03 at 23:53, R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe chuck@mail.schillernet.us, from writings of Sat, May 03, 2003 at 08:58:49PM -0400: > > > Hello All - bah, was just playing with my QIC drive, a WangTek > > 5150ES (Using dos tar!) and halfway thru the first listing > > tape stops. Turns out the rubber what drives the tape has gotten > > very soft. Anybody have a box full of cheap replacements? > > Oops... it appears that you didn't use the /LCV (lowest capstan > viscosity) flag ;-) to prevent the tar command from attempting to turn > the rubber capstan into a tarry substance. :-( No, sure didn't. But that dos tar DOES have the oddity of having an -N flag for 'binary', hardly anything saves correctly if you leave it out. Anyway, think I'll try auto fuel hose and see what happens. --Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 5 09:05:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Another rubber capstan turns to mush In-Reply-To: <1052140850.1044.4.camel@dell1> References: <20030504035307.GB78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3229.209.96.179.94.1052009929.squirrel@mail.schillernet.us> <20030504035307.GB78759@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030505100429.3d179be6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:20 AM 5/5/03 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 2003-05-03 at 23:53, R. D. Davis wrote: >> Quothe chuck@mail.schillernet.us, from writings of Sat, May 03, 2003 at 08:58:49PM -0400: >> >> > Hello All - bah, was just playing with my QIC drive, a WangTek >> > 5150ES (Using dos tar!) and halfway thru the first listing >> > tape stops. Turns out the rubber what drives the tape has gotten >> > very soft. Anybody have a box full of cheap replacements? >> >> Oops... it appears that you didn't use the /LCV (lowest capstan >> viscosity) flag ;-) to prevent the tar command from attempting to turn >> the rubber capstan into a tarry substance. :-( > >No, sure didn't. But that dos tar DOES have the oddity of having an >-N flag for 'binary', hardly anything saves correctly if you leave it >out. Anyway, think I'll try auto fuel hose and see what happens. Fual line is too hard and slick. See if you get some surgical rubber tubing. I've been told that it works pretty well. In my experience you have to match the o.d. pretty closely and also have to pay attention that the roller is actually round. Some tubing has a seam in it and it's hard to get the roller to be perfectly round. I try to keep the o.d. within +/- .002" and keep the runout within .002". Let us know your results. Joe Joe > >--Chuck From jss at subatomix.com Mon May 5 09:16:01 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming In-Reply-To: <000c01c31073$cfcb5a80$0500fea9@game> References: <20030502061357.GA21990@subatomix.com> <000c01c31073$cfcb5a80$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20030505142238.GA8648@subatomix.com> On Friday, May 2, 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > I loved the back page of PC/C. As my special homage to it, at every job > > I've had, I have introduced the term 'Thurman unit' into the corporate > > vocabulary. Anybody else here remember what a Thurman unit is? > > No idea, does it have somthing to do with Uma Thurman which he mentions > alot about in those articles? The Thurman unit is the usually imaginary computer part that is faulty when you can't or don't want to diagnose a problem correctly. The term is also a useful tool for pacifying customers if your tech job has any support component to it. Compare to car mechanics telling you you're low on 'blinker fluid'. -- Jeffrey Sharp From jss at subatomix.com Mon May 5 09:21:00 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: DEC RL02 -vs- RL02-A In-Reply-To: <1051889832.1783.246.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> References: <1051889832.1783.246.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> Message-ID: <20030505142815.GB8648@subatomix.com> On Friday, May 2, 2003, Barry Skidmore wrote: > Could someone tell what the differences are between a DEC RL02 -vs- a > RL02-A, or point me to the appropriate web site. Was there even such a drive? I've never heard of one. -- Jeffrey Sharp From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon May 5 09:35:01 2003 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Atari 800 (paging David Woyciesjes ) In-Reply-To: <3EA937F7.6AC29623@comast.net> Message-ID: <7ED78D54-7F07-11D7-8358-0003937B82DA@xlisper.mv.com> I'm sorry for sending this to the list but I've tried several times to use the email address above for private communications and my messages have bounced. Does anyone know how to contact David Woyciesjes? I thought he was located in the US but comast.net seems to be in the UK. In any case, messages sent to the above address bounce (at least for me). Thanks David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 09:50:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Amiga video In-Reply-To: <000801c312ca$e92adce0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20030505144848.17409.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- TeoZ wrote: > Anybody have a cheap 390682-01 amiga to vga adapter or know where I can > get one? You are referring to the 23-pin-to-HD-15 adapter with the C= logo on it? I do not know of a source. > I am trying to use a NEC 3DS monitor on my Amiga A1200 to free up my 1084 > monitor for my A500 and C128. I tried using a custom cable from IEC but > it doesnt sync all the time (its just a wire thru while the silver amiga > part has a buffer chip inside). The buffer chip is an inverter chip. I have built these before (with a home-burned circuit board and everything). You have to invert HSYNC and VSYNC between the Amiga and some monitors (there were some high-end monitors that could handle either positive _or_ negative sync signals). ISTR it's just a 7404 of some flavor in the C= adapter. If you wanted to get really fancy, you can double-invert the signals, run the buffered sync signals _and_ the inverted signals through a double-pole-double- throw switch and make your monitor adapter selectable. The Amiga video-out connector does provide +5 for powering external devices (Genlocks, etc.), so that's one item you don't have to worry about. The pinouts for the 23-pin connector are in every Amiga manual I've ever owned and I'm sure a Google search will turn them up, too. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 09:59:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: More DEC Stuff Coming In-Reply-To: <20030505142238.GA8648@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20030505145738.23234.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > The Thurman unit is the usually imaginary computer part that is faulty > when you can't or don't want to diagnose a problem correctly...Compare > to car mechanics telling you you're low on 'blinker fluid'. Or your "muffler bearings" need to be replaced. OnTopic (ruder) phrases: "The problem is in the STK Interface" "PEBCAK" "ID-10T error" -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 5 10:07:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Atari 800 (paging David Woyciesjes ) Message-ID: >I'm sorry for sending this to the list but I've tried several times to >use the email address above for private communications and my messages >have bounced. Does anyone know how to contact David Woyciesjes? I >thought he was located in the US but comast.net seems to be in the UK. >In any case, messages sent to the above address bounce (at least for >me). comast.net might be in the UK, but comCast.net is in the US (notice the C after the M). -chris From jss at subatomix.com Mon May 5 13:29:00 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: DEC RL02 -vs- RL02-A In-Reply-To: <20030505142815.GB8648@subatomix.com> References: <1051889832.1783.246.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> <20030505142815.GB8648@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20030505183534.GB8752@subatomix.com> On Monday, May 5, 2003, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Friday, May 2, 2003, Barry Skidmore wrote: > > Could someone tell what the differences are between a DEC RL02 -vs- a > > RL02-A, or point me to the appropriate web site. > > Was there even such a drive? I've never heard of one. Note: I'm talking about the 'A' variety above. :-) -- Jeffrey Sharp From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon May 5 13:39:00 2003 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20030430170001.37364.32800.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20030505183759.25362.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> I also went to TCF on Saturday. I saw lots of Sparc Stations too. Didn't buy one. But, maybe next year. No TRS-80's that I saw (except for a Model 100 with a broken spacebar), One Amiga 500 that I couldn't carry home with all the stuff the seller wanted to sell with it. I did get a ROM 01 Apple ][gs with 2mb RAM, 3.5" FDD, 5.25" FDD, KB, Mouse, Joystick, Cables, PrintShop GS for $7.00 I bought an unknown Newer Upgrade card for $15 and got home to find it to be a G3 250/125. So that was a good deal. I also got two others for $10.00 each that turned out to be PowerComputing 604e 225/45 and a 200/50. So the G3 went in my 8500 (Since it didn't work in my PowerCenter 132) and the 225/45 went in the Power Center. Lots of other odds and ends there. But not too much of a selection. I saw one Vic-20, no Commodore 64's. Though there were some carts for them around. Hardly any video game consoles at all. No Apple II's, other than a few gs'es. No Next Stations. The Flea was a little smaller than last year, but there were definitely bargains to be found. I also got a JEIDA Memory card (16mb) for my ThinkPad 510cs for $5.00. That was a nice find. Also a Tandy JP-250 Printer (Canon BJ-10ex or similar relabled) with an extra cart and two dead batteries I tossed for $3.00. Printer works great if I use an IBM Proprinter Driver or a Canon BJ-130e driver. This is a great little printer that fits in my Laptop bag, and is good for taking on trips or meetings along with my ThinkPad 600e. I also saw a few HP Omnibooks, the old ones with the attached mouse that used a PCMCIA Hard Drive. I thought about buying one. But I decided I didn't want one that badly to take a chance on getting one I couldn't fix easily or cheaply. I didn't get a TRS-80 Model I or III or my holy grail... An LNW-80. But, I'll keep looking... But definitely the show is moving away from classic computers and becoming more and more PC/Mac. I think it's just because the price of the booths in the flea is just too high for the person looking to get rid of stuff in their garage. I think it was on the order of $100 with one ticket for admission. I think it used to be $20 - $35 years ago. And they'd have HUNDREDS of sellers in the flea. It looked like less than 100 Vendors this time around. I didn't count. It was worth going to, and I'll go back next year... Regards, Al Hartman The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 5 14:01:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >I also went to TCF on Saturday. [snip] Yowzers! Sounds like there was FAR more to be had on Saturday than Sunday when I went. I don't think I saw ANY Apple 2 stuff at all other than one guy with a box of software and a Cricket speaker box. (of which I meant to buy the stuff, but got side tracked answering a Mac question for my brother and then further side tracked by things to look at... before I knew it, I had walked away, and gone home and forgotten to buy the A2 items). I also didn't really see too many items older than 68k Macs and a few early Pentiums. I guess all that stuff sold off on Saturday. Looks like next year I go on Saturday rather than Sunday. -chris From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon May 5 15:24:01 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Gnomes In-Reply-To: <004b01c31181$56d5ee60$0200a8c0@Centaur> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030505210524.02c8b918@pop.freeserve.net> At 15:19 03/05/2003 +0100, Bob Clark wrote: >Yes I remember Bob Clark >(http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/014196.html) because >I am he, and I remember Peter Turnbull too. This is getting silly, because >this week I have relocated Bill Olivier (CommunITel) and Lindsay Reid (Viewfax >258), mostly by accident. > >Best regards, >Bob Hmm... want to add an ex-Micronet Employee, ClubSpot 810 editor, bulletin board operator (incl. an official TG@H software user) Prestel message board operator ("Free Speech") and suchlike? Namely Me! It's a small world. At 16:07 03/05/2003 +0100, Bob Clark wrote: >... the good news is that Lindsay still has Viewfax 258 backed up on 5.25" >floppy disks. There's quite a few disks, and we'd have to sort through them >somewhat to find the Gnomey bits. But Lindsay is happy to loan his disks to >Glyn the man with the archaic hardware, all he needs is his address. Then he'd >like his disks back. I figure we could probably blow the lot onto the first >quarter inch of a CD for him. >So our dream may come true and we'll have both the Gnome on Prestel and the >Gnome at Home splurged all over our shiny new web site. I fancied at one point digging out some of my old Beebs, setting the fileserver up again, and linking the lot to a terminal-server on the DSL, and hey Presto, my TG@H clone back online again! But .. does anybody do a Java applet that will run a viewdata terminal emulation? I have a complete archive of Freech backed up on various media, too, if anyone were really interested in 15 year old ramblings from a moderated chat board..! Give my regards to Glynn as and when you see him - he gave me a Terry Pratchett book once when I was up there admiring the rats nest, and I'm still reading them - just been given the new one as a present :-) :-) Rob. (aka T.M.S., once.) From jpl15 at panix.com Mon May 5 15:54:01 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Interesting aircraft memory and Bendix computer ad on eBay Message-ID: Some eBay gleanings of possible interest: Computer memory unit CP548/ASA made by Sikorsky... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2413856214&category=26436 Bendix G-20 advertising ephemera: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=21092&item=3606280660&rd=1 Big Old Iron fans should maybe check this one out. Cheerz John From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 15:59:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505205753.82057.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- chris wrote: > Sounds like there was FAR more to be had on Saturday than Sunday when I > went... Looks like next year I go on Saturday rather than Sunday. The same can be said for the Dayton Hamvention - the *really* interesting stuff is to be found by fellow sellers when setting up the night before. The best thing for mere attendees (like myself) is the opening rush at dawn on Friday. All day Saturday is OK, and Sunday is bargain day, especially after noon, and especially if the weather has been crappy (that's how I got a PDP-8/L tagged $250 for $35, 21 years ago... Sunday at 16:00, during clean & packup, after three days of rain). So... best selection: as early as possible. best price (of whatever is left): as late as possible. Bargains can be had anytime, but unless you are looking for stuff that nobody else is looking for, or unless it's the year that some technology hits the wastecan (like MicroChannel boards did a number of years ago) and is in abundance well beyond demand; chances are, someone will beat you to it (like the $20 uVAX-III w/dual DESQA that Mitch Miller beat me to last year on Friday morning!) -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon May 5 16:05:01 2003 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: NASA Auction Message-ID: Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt MD: http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/catalog.cgi?salenumber=80322620030009. Lots of PC's, Macs, monitors,printers, and office equipment. Fair amount of HP, Tektronic test equipment, various tape transports and hard drives. Some Sun, SGI, DEC, Next. Two Concurrent 3280mps. Unfortunately, divided into big lots. From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 5 16:24:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Northstar File Transfer from PC Message-ID: <200305052122.OAA23407@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Marvin Maybe this isn't exactly what you are looking for but I'm currently working on some software to transfer entire disk images through the serial port of a H89 to a PC. I have another friend checking out my first version, now. I hope to do a similar things for the N*'s as soon as I get one of these machines up and running ( on my list of things to do ). I suppose that once the image is on the PC, one can modify the image to include any new files, one wants and then transfer it back to the N*. It isn't a nice direct method but my main intent is to get some way to send disk images over the net and not specifically individual files. I haven't fiddled with the N* at all and don't know a lot about it. The H89 has a simple monitor that I use to hand enter a simple bootstrap program. With this, I bring in the rest of the code to run the disk drive. Does the N* have a ROM based monitor? I also have a similar setup for my Poly88 but that is setup for getting code into the Poly88 and tape from the PC. I used this to create code to do the various tape copying functions. I can read code from a cassette tape, transfer it through the serial to the PC and later feed it back through the serial to the Poly88 to write back onto tape. I use a similar bootstrapping code to get things started, through the Poly's monitor. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > >What is the procedure for transfering files to and from a PC using N* >DOS? For text from the N* to the PC, no problem, just print it out to >the terminal (a DOS machine) and capture it. But what about going the >other way, wanting to get information back to the N*? Any information >appreciated! > >------------------------------------------- >ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup >http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From doug_jackson at citadel.com.au Mon May 5 19:18:00 2003 From: doug_jackson at citadel.com.au (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 Message-ID: Alan, I recieved 2 System-80's, and had this fault in both cases. In the first case, there was a memory expansion that was very poorly wired, removing it, cleaning the sockets, and reinstalling the correct memory helped, and it now works a treat. In the second case, there was a disk controller installed in the bottom of the system. I discovered that if the FDC chip was removed, the system booted. I de-installed this modification, and the system works! (Later, I found out that the random characters was a symptom of the system waiting for a boot floppy [which I didn't have]) There is also a flexible cable between the video and the cpu board that could have faulty contacts. Giving this a clean should help. Hope that this helps. regards Doug Jackson Manager - Managed Services (ACT) Citadel Securix Pty Ltd Level 1, 10 Moore St Canberra ACT 2601 Ph: (612) 6290 9011 Fx: (612) 6262 6152 Mob: 0414 986 878 Web: www.citadel.com.au Melbourne - Sydney - Canberra - Brisbane - Hong Kong - Atlanta Any pricing or time figures contained within this email are indicative only, and have been provided for planning purposes only. Please request a quotation from your sales representative prior to undertaking any work. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Greenstreet [mailto:aeg@paradise.net.nz] Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 8:52 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 Hi All I have just acquired a System 80 MkII (distributed in Australasia by Dick Smith Electronics). On power up I get the LED power light ok but a screen full of random characters, the reset switch does nothing. I've had it apart and there are no loose connections or chips on the two main boards and no sign of any burnt or expired components. Has anyone had similar problems and / or knows what the problem is? Thanks Alan CAUTION - The information in this message may be of a privileged or confidential nature intended only for the use of the addressee or someone authorised to receive the addressee's e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@citadel.com.au. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Citadel Securix. Feel free to visit the Citadel Securix website! Click below. http://www.citadel.com.au From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 5 20:36:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >best price (of whatever >is left): as late as possible. Yeah... when I was at TCF, there was one lady barking "Macs and PCs, two for $5". It was mostly < Pentium 100's or 68k macs, but she had a few early PPCs... if I had a cart I would have grabbed the PPCs at $2.50 each! She did have a PowerMac 5400 that my brother expressed interest in. But then she pointed out to him that it had no logic board or drives... it was just the screen, case, power supply. She dropped the price to $1.00... then told him he could just take it... I think if we waited another minute, she would have offered us money to take it with us (we left it behind... didn't want to carry the heavy MF even if it was free) -chris From marvin at rain.org Mon May 5 20:40:01 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Northstar File Transfer from PC References: <200305052122.OAA23407@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3EB71205.19E38872@rain.org> Hi Dwight, Being able to transfer disk images would be a good thing! The monitor on the N* is on the disk, and I don't *think* there is one built into ROM ... at least on an unmodified machine. And I believe the monitor is also a N* DOS program as opposed to something on the CP/M disk, but I'll have to check that to be certain. The CPU board does have provisions for adding an EPROM but I'm not certain how it is accessed. Somehow I've misplaced a box of N* stuff that had a lot of utilities. *Hopefully*, my HD is still readible although I haven't accessed it in many years. If not, oh well :). "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > Hi Marvin > Maybe this isn't exactly what you are looking for > but I'm currently working on some software to transfer > entire disk images through the serial port of a H89 > to a PC. I have another friend checking out my first > version, now. I hope to do a similar things for the > N*'s as soon as I get one of these machines up and > running ( on my list of things to do ). > I suppose that once the image is on the PC, one can > modify the image to include any new files, one wants > and then transfer it back to the N*. It isn't a nice > direct method but my main intent is to get some way > to send disk images over the net and not specifically > individual files. > I haven't fiddled with the N* at all and don't > know a lot about it. The H89 has a simple monitor that > I use to hand enter a simple bootstrap program. With > this, I bring in the rest of the code to run the disk > drive. Does the N* have a ROM based monitor? > I also have a similar setup for my Poly88 but that is > setup for getting code into the Poly88 and tape from the PC. > I used this to create code to do the various tape > copying functions. I can read code from a cassette > tape, transfer it through the serial to the PC and > later feed it back through the serial to the Poly88 > to write back onto tape. I use a similar bootstrapping > code to get things started, through the Poly's monitor. > Dwight > > >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > > >What is the procedure for transfering files to and from a PC using N* > >DOS? For text from the N* to the PC, no problem, just print it out to > >the terminal (a DOS machine) and capture it. But what about going the > >other way, wanting to get information back to the N*? Any information > >appreciated! > > > >------------------------------------------- > >ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup > >http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html -- ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 5 20:59:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <010501c31371$ed8bcc20$0500fea9@game> How many quadra's can you use anyway. I like my Q950 and 840Av but thats about it for me. Some schools or buisinesses must have cleaned out their closets. Do they have people selling bins full of nubus cards, early PC cards at that festival? Those are always fun to pick through. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > >best price (of whatever > >is left): as late as possible. > > Yeah... when I was at TCF, there was one lady barking "Macs and PCs, two > for $5". It was mostly < Pentium 100's or 68k macs, but she had a few > early PPCs... if I had a cart I would have grabbed the PPCs at $2.50 each! > > She did have a PowerMac 5400 that my brother expressed interest in. But > then she pointed out to him that it had no logic board or drives... it > was just the screen, case, power supply. She dropped the price to > $1.00... then told him he could just take it... I think if we waited > another minute, she would have offered us money to take it with us (we > left it behind... didn't want to carry the heavy MF even if it was free) > > -chris > From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 5 21:01:00 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: A Vectrex Case goes for over $162 In-Reply-To: <017201c30f32$a07e7790$7208dd40@oemcomputer> from "Keys" at Apr 30, 03 11:07:36 am Message-ID: <200305060159.VAA29670@wordstock.com> And thusly Keys spake: > > This just for a empty case???? The machines itself goes for $5 to $25 at the > thrifts here. Do you have any!?!?!?!?! I would love one to play with!! Cheers, Bryan From mranalog at attbi.com Mon May 5 21:14:00 2003 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Northstar File Transfer from PC Message-ID: <3EB71EF3.C4D27433@attbi.com> Marvin wrote: > What is the procedure for transfering files to and from a PC using N* > DOS? For text from the N* to the PC, no problem, just print it out to > the terminal (a DOS machine) and capture it. But what about going the > other way, wanting to get information back to the N*? Any information > appreciated! ===== Transferring from the N* to the PC ====== I developed a process for capturing the entire disk so would have a backup of each my N* disks on the PC. I figured that later I could use the data to create a disk image and then extract the files from that disk image. The procedure is basically reading sections of the disk into a buffer using N* DOS and then listing that buffer to a PC log file using N* monitor. Here is the procedure. The comments below are not part of the procedure and they are not captured in the file. They are just added to clarify the procedure. // Step 1 - While booted into N* DOS, turn logging // on in my terminal program (PROCOMM) // Step 2 - I type in the LI command to list the files // on this disk. This documents which files, and where // they are on the disk +LI DOS 4 12 D 1 2000 BASIC 10 52 D 1 2D00 MAILER 36 30 D 2 LIST 51 500 D 3 CF 301 6 D 1 2D00 SID 304 48 D 1 9000 MONITOR 328 8 D 1 0 CD 332 4 D 1 2D00 // Step 3 - I have determined that I can read 144 blocks // at address 3000H without overwriting DOS or the monitor. // So I read 144 blocks starting from block 0 on the disk. +RD 0 3000 144 // Step 4 - I load and run the N* MONITOR which happens to // be on this disk. If it was not on this disk I would have // temporarly swap disks, load the MONITOR and swapped back. +GO MONITOR // The N* MONITOR starts MONITOR 5.0 // Step 5 - I use the MONITOR command to dump the 144 256 // byte blocks to the terminal. >DA 3000-C000 3000 44 4F 53 20 20 20 20 20 04 00 06 00 81 00 20 20 D O S - 3010 42 41 53 49 43 20 20 20 0A 00 1A 00 81 00 2D 20 B A S I C - - 3020 4D 41 49 4C 45 52 20 20 24 00 0F 00 82 1A 20 20 M A I L E R $ - // ---- BIG SNIP HERE to shorten this email ----- BFE0 20 03 8B 47 45 4E 45 56 41 20 52 4F 43 4B 20 50 - G E N E V A R O C K P BFF0 52 4F 44 2E 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 R O D . C000 A3 -# // Step 5 - I return to N* DOS with the OS command >OS // Next step - I read the next 144 blocks. This is a // double density disk and each sector is 512 bytes // contains 2 blocks, so the next read is from 'disk // address 72. +RD 72 3000 144 // Back to the MONITOR, repeating the 5 steps until // the entire disk is read. The only command that // changes each time is the RD command. +GO MONITOR >DA 3000-C000 // The other read commands are: +RD 144 3000 144 +RD 216 3000 144 +RD 288 3000 124 // There are 35 tracks, 10 sectors, 2 blocks per // sector, making 700 blocks of 256 bytes each // for a double density disk. So the last read // is just 124 blocks. // Of course the last step is to close the log file. ===== Transferring from the PC to the N* ====== I have done this. But I would just suggest that you write a N* BASIC program that first prompts for a filename and creates the file. Then the program would wait for data from the PC which it would store in a buffer before writting the data to disk. I would suggest sending the data as ascii encoded hex. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= From musicman at satcom.whit.org Mon May 5 22:14:00 2003 From: musicman at satcom.whit.org (Musicman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Looking for MSD service manual In-Reply-To: <20030504063149.70605.38117.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I am desperatly looking for a copy (electronic, scanned, hard, any!) of the MSD service manual (for the MSD Dual Drive sometimes called the SD2 or Super Drive 2) for the Commodore line of computers...I'd like to sell my MSD dual drive, and it is in great shape, but I have the owners manual and figure it would be nice to include a service manual as these are 20+ years old! Thanks -----Original Message----- From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of cctech-request@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:32 AM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: cctech digest, Vol 1 #495 - 49 msgs Send cctech mailing list submissions to cctech@classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request@classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctech-admin@classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." Today's Topics: 1. HP's Amigo Protocol, HFS (Peter Brown) 2. RE: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 (Peter Brown) 3. Another rubber capstan turns to mush (chuck@mail.schillernet.us) 4. DATA I/O SetSite module (Joe) 5. dnd (Ken Carlin) 6. Re: More DEC Stuff Coming (Jeffrey Sharp) 7. Fw: Germany: Free RS/6000 ! (Robert F. Schaefer) 8. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (blstuart@bellsouth.net) 9. Great Finds Todayin Houston (Keys) 10. Re: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. (Ethan Dicks) 11. Re: More DEC Stuff Coming (TeoZ) 12. wanted: documentation for IBM 3164 terminal (Joseph Ballantyne) 13. RE: More DEC Stuff Coming (Witchy) 14. VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals (David de Gruyl) 15. Re: Inquiry about Classic Computers Collectors List (John Boffemmyer IV) 16. Re: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals (Paul Williams) 17. Re: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals (David de Gruyl) 18. More items from the 'Garage'... (James Willing) 19. RE: FS/FT Items (philip@awale.qc.ca) 20. FA: HP computer manuals; Pascal, Fortran, IPC (Joe) 21. RE: H89 disk formats? (Patrick Rigney) 22. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (Doug Coward) 23. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (Doug Coward) 24. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (Dwight K. Elvey) 25. Looking for a 11/44 in denver area / colorado (emanuel stiebler) 26. RE:256x4 80NS or faster (Geoff Reed) 27. RE:256x4 80NS or faster (Joe) 28. Re: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format (Joe) 29. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (Doug Coward) 30. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (Ethan Dicks) 31. Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 (Ethan Dicks) 32. Re: Looking for a 11/44 in denver area / colorado (Tony Duell) 33. Northgate OmniKey Ultra (David Holland) 34. Re: Heathkit EC-1 (Dwight K. Elvey) 35. VCF Europa 4.0 (Vintage Computer Festival) 36. Re: Northgate OmniKey Ultra (Frank McConnell) 37. MicroVAX4000/5050A drive sleds (Greg Elkin) 38. TRS-80 / System 80 (Alan Greenstreet) 39. Re: MicroVAX4000/505A drive sleds (Robert F. Schaefer) 40. Gnomes (Bob Clark) 41. HP's Amigo Protocall & HP IPC (Joe) 42. Fw: Viewfax 258 (Bob Clark) 43. VCF Europa Live (Vintage Computer Festival) 44. Re: HP's Amigo Protocol, HFS (Joe) 45. Re: Northgate OmniKey Ultra (David Holland) 46. Soroc IQ120 Chip Problem (Marvin Johnston) 47. HP9915 (Tony Duell) 48. Re: Another rubber capstan turns to mush (R. D. Davis) 49. Re: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format (Frank McConnell) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Peter Brown" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: HP's Amigo Protocol, HFS Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:53:15 +0000 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hi Joe, The drive is a 9134XV - serial number begins with 23 so I guess that it would be from around 1983. If I look at the drive with an HP 9000 332 it sees an HFS partition - with basic 6.0 binaries :). When I ask the drive to identify itself it returns a pair of bytes that I don't recognise (1 and 15 from memory but I could be wrong). This pair of bytes is not the same as the pair that would be returned by a CS80 drive. I managed to check the reader software with a pair of 9133 drives, a 9134 drive (which fails) and a 7907 drive (this identifies itself correctly but appears to have been wiped of data at some time). I have some other software recorded on 7906 removable cartridges - does anyone know if an HPIB version of this drive was made? - I think that the model number may be 7906H but I have no further information. Does anyone have a 7906H tht they don't need? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Peter Brown" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:47:05 +0000 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hi All, I've just acquired an HP 9000 series R332. In the back of it amongst the usual HPIB / GPIB cards there is a card marked Infotek Systems AD200 Converter, \ Assy 900-13992 rev E - I assume that this is some sort of data acquisition card. Does anyone have details of the card specification / the software required to drive it? Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 20:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another rubber capstan turns to mush From: To: Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hello All - bah, was just playing with my QIC drive, a WangTek 5150ES (Using dos tar!) and halfway thru the first listing tape stops. Turns out the rubber what drives the tape has gotten very soft. Anybody have a box full of cheap replacements? (pic here: http://mail.schillernet.us/wangtek/ ). I'd like to keep it working, but paying for depot service ( like http://www.eds-sales.com/EDS-QICPG.htm ) on a 150Mb drive is, uh, a questionable investment. --Chuck --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:45:52 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Joe Subject: DATA I/O SetSite module Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Anybody know where I can find a PDF copy of the manual for this? Joe --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Ken Carlin" To: Subject: dnd Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hello: I have been searching for the source code to DND for quite a long time now, and I ran across this post you made at some time in the past. Would you happen to have worked out the details in order to distribute the source code? I used to play this game in college many years ago, and it would mean quite a lot to me to get it up and running again. Thanks for any help that you can offer, Ken Carlin >From what I've read, banned inside of DEC is the best description :^) It >uses creatures and spells straight from D&D. Yep, I know exactly which one you speak of... I have the sources for the pascal version of the game, along with the data files, preserved for almost 20 years. I have ported the game to C using curses (actually, it was mostly a brute-force translation from the pascal) and have it running at least as well as the original pascal version (which was incomplete) at home on my Alpha PWS running Linux. I've been in contact with one of the people who was responsible for writing the pascal version, and am trying to get ahold of all the others so that I can figure out how to write up a 'copyright' page with proper attributions. >Basically all I know is what's written up at the following webpage: >http://www.io.com/~adastra/rancourt/dnd/ >It was written by Daniel Lawrence, started on the PDP-10, was ported to >RSTS/E part way through, and after that ported to VAX/VMS. I played it on RSTS/E when I was working at Parker St (DEC) in Maynard back in 1977. Actually, the pascal version was also built on RSTS using, I believe, the OMSI compiler, and ran on RT-11. Dan has apparently given permission for any and all versions of the game to exist with his blessing, but since the source I have had a copyright which is problematic (since it doesn't mention him), I have to try to do the right thing. >I grabbed the source off of the web page above, and it almost works. In >fact it might work, IF, I could figure out exactly how to build it. BTW, >the "TOPS-20" executable, looks to be a VMS V1.0 executable. If/when I can resolve the issues of attribution, I'd love to make it available... should I even bother with sourceforge? :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 01:13:57 -0500 From: Jeffrey Sharp To: ClassicCmp Mailing List Subject: Re: More DEC Stuff Coming Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org On Thursday, May 1, 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > I got a red pen and made up some 'Danger Implosives' signs which I stuch > to the sides of the VR201. This was before the current panic over > terrorism, of course. Thus labelled, I carried the machine onto the train > and to London. I got some very odd looks ;-) When I was a bit younger I read PC/Computing. Penn Jillette used to write the back page, which I loved to read. In one issue, he recommended that people put commands in their AUTOEXEC.BAT file such that their computer would count down from 10 upon bootup, as if preparing to detonate. He suggested that this be done to have fun with the security people at airports who ask you to turn on your laptop. I wouldn't try this today! :-) I loved the back page of PC/C. As my special homage to it, at every job I've had, I have introduced the term 'Thurman unit' into the corporate vocabulary. Anybody else here remember what a Thurman unit is? -- Jeffrey Sharp --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Robert F. Schaefer" To: Subject: Fw: Germany: Free RS/6000 ! Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Saw this on spamnet news... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Ebinger" Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:44 AM Subject: Germany: Free RS/6000 ! > Hello! > > Is anybody near Karlsruhe interested in RS/6000 > Model 320, 340, 360 and some other Models? > > Look at the Newsgroup ka.markt.computer > The University in Karlsruhe offers RS/6000 ! > > > Best regards > > Frank Ebinger --__--__-- Message: 8 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: blstuart@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 19:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org In message , The Design Fort DTP wri tes: >I would be interested to learn more about the Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. >So far I only found pictures and specifications on the net. Is there a >website that actually explained how this machine worked and/or what it >could/can do. >Even more are there informations about "programs" that this machine could >run? > >I have to admit that the "analog" times of the computer age was a bit before >my time, but I really would love to learn more about it. Others have already posted some good information on this. However, I thought I'd mention a little thing I wrote up as a handout for a class on the history of computing I taught several years ago. You can find the html version at: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/r/drbrians/analog/analog.html and a PDF file at: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/r/drbrians/analog/analog.pdf It's not an in-depth treatment by any means, but it does give a run down on the basic math behind how they work. Brian L. Stuart --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Keys" To: "cctalk@classiccmp" Subject: Great Finds Todayin Houston Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I picked up the following items today while searching the thrifts: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT cpu only no KB or monitor with it. HP Visualize C180 cpu only no KB or monitor. HP apollo Series 700 product # A2286A. TRS-80 micro computer system Catalog # 26-01006-G. No monitor or power supply with it. Apple IIc Plus cpu only. Tandy 1000SL cpu only. NBA JAM cassette/cartridge for the Super Famicom. Panasonic R E A L FZ-10 3DO console. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:52:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Pens for TRS-80 PC-2 plotter - found. To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org --- Philip Pemberton wrote: > If someone wants to send me one or two plotters with bad drive gears, > I'd be willing to have a go at repairing them. My technique involves > repairing the damage with Araldite (epoxy adhesive - sets rock hard) > and then putting a small (#10) staple in across the damaged section. I have a number of NOS plotter engines with nearly all (pre) cracked gears. I will be happy to loan you one, but I think you will find that your technique is not suitable for such a small gear. The diameter of the staple wire is about the same as the thickness of the plastic between the bottom of the groove and the bore. There are two gears per engine - X and Y. Same size. Same problem. One on the left, one on the right. I have used similar techniques (with success) fixing Atari joystick actuators (I used to get the joysticks for free from overenthusiastic friends with 2600s) You would have to get the plastic to mate up rather closely where the crack is - the "problem" is not that the shaft slips in the broken gear; it's that the gap causes the gear not to mesh with the driven gear and the gear train binds, preventing X or Y motion. > I'd be tempted to take a few 10ths of a mm off the inside of the hole > for the shaft that the gear fits onto. If they're cracking, the shaft is > probably too big for the hole. Enlarging the hole very slightly should > reduce the pressure a bit and hopefully make the gear last a few more > years that it would have done if it were not modified. The shaft diameter is 1/20" (1.27mm). If you enlarge the bore by 7%-14% (one or two tenths of a mm) off the inside of the gear, it will freewheel and fly off the shaft then get lost in the carpet. I have some closeup pictures I can e-mail to someone (no ftp access from the machine they are on) :-( The relative sizes of the gears are visible, as are the cracks. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "TeoZ" To: Subject: Re: More DEC Stuff Coming Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 02:26:41 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org No idea, does it have somthing to do with Uma Thurman which he mentions alot about in those articles? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Sharp" To: "ClassicCmp Mailing List" Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:13 AM Subject: Re: More DEC Stuff Coming > On Thursday, May 1, 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > I got a red pen and made up some 'Danger Implosives' signs which I stuch > > to the sides of the VR201. This was before the current panic over > > terrorism, of course. Thus labelled, I carried the machine onto the train > > and to London. I got some very odd looks ;-) > > When I was a bit younger I read PC/Computing. Penn Jillette used to write > the back page, which I loved to read. In one issue, he recommended that > people put commands in their AUTOEXEC.BAT file such that their computer > would count down from 10 upon bootup, as if preparing to detonate. He > suggested that this be done to have fun with the security people at airports > who ask you to turn on your laptop. I wouldn't try this today! :-) > > I loved the back page of PC/C. As my special homage to it, at every job > I've had, I have introduced the term 'Thurman unit' into the corporate > vocabulary. Anybody else here remember what a Thurman unit is? > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 03:04:06 -0400 (EDT) From: du651@freenet.carleton.ca (Joseph Ballantyne) To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: wanted: documentation for IBM 3164 terminal Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I want these IBM publications (especially A18-2317): GA18-2317 3164 ASCII Color Display Station Description GA18-2319 3164 ASCII Color Display Station Setup Instructions SY18-2118 3164 ASCII Color Display Station Repair Center Maintenance Info SY18-2120 3164 ASCII Display Station Repair Center Maintenance Information GA18-2563 ALA User's Guide for 3163/3164 GA18-2720 3163 and 3164 Emulating IBM Terminals and DEC VT100/52 Terminals GA18-2736 3163/3164 Enhanced Emulation of TeleVideo 950 I have A18-2318 so don't want more of that, but if you know of other 3164 publications that I don't know about, do please tell. I'm in Ottawa ON Canada. As far as I know, international shipping into Canada is not practical, so I'm interested in antiques that happen to be already in Canada. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Witchy" To: , Subject: RE: More DEC Stuff Coming Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:51:22 +0100 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org > > something home for me (TRS80 MIII) some baggage 'handlers' > forgot that glass > > breaks when its dropped :( > > I beleive the original packing box for the M3/M4 had the following > printed on it : 'Do not drop, or CRT may implode' ... Mind you , I once Oddly enough that's exactly what happened......grrrr..... > had a CRT sent by Royal Mail (who are good at wrecking things!) in a > cardboard box with _no_ packing -- just rattling around in the box, and > it arrived in onve piece. How, I will never know... Strange, the only time I've ever received a CRT (black Microvitec to match the Sinclair QL) it was nicely packed and it STILL arrived broken. Well, not *just* broken, smashed completely in fact. Bless parcelforce's cotton socks. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:37:33 -0400 From: "David de Gruyl" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I was looking around on the internet (mainly decdocs.org and linked sites, as well as google) and I was unable to locate scanned manuals for the Vaxstation 4000/90. If anyone has a link to such documents, I would appreciate it. My problems revolve around a newly aquired machine which does not appear to be giving me console access over the MMJ port in the rear of the box. As I said, this is a newly aquired machine, and I have not really taken it apart yet, but the manuals would be helpful in any event. David -- David de Gruyl --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:23:22 -0400 To: cctech@classiccmp.org From: John Boffemmyer IV Subject: Re: Inquiry about Classic Computers Collectors List Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Ooh, Seagate, very helpful definitely one to keep in the address book =) -John At 11:51 AM 4/30/2003, you wrote: >On Monday, April 28, 2003, ReCarDeaux@aol.com wrote: > > From 1977 to 1991, I worked for General Electric, Honeywell, Magnetic > > Peripherals, Control Data, Imprimis, and Seagate. I am interested in > > staying in touch with people/computers of that era. Is your list for me? > > > > Richard Oklahoma City, OK 73118 Email ReCarDeaux@aol.com > >I'm not exactly of that era (I'm 24), but I love machines that are. I'm >also located in the OKC Metro. I live in Norman and work for a large >company near Classen and Western. I have a medium-sized collection of >mostly DEC PDP-11s, VAXen, and old Suns. I also help administrate this >list. > >I think you would have an enjoyable time as a list member. There are two >ways to subscribe. The first is cctalk, which is unmoderated and delivered >immediately. The second is cctech, which is moderated for topic and >delivered after an average delay of 12 hours. Please be aware that both >share the same on-topic messages, so you should only subscribe to one of the >two. Subscribing to both will get you nothing but duplicate messages. > >See our web site at: http://www.classiccmp.org/ > >It would be great to have someone else from my area on the list. AFAIK the >closest existing subscriber is in Fort Worth. > >-- >Jeffrey Sharp ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:17:03 +0100 From: Paul Williams Organization: http://vt100.net/ To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org David de Gruyl wrote: > > I was looking around on the internet (mainly decdocs.org and linked > sites, as well as google) and I was unable to locate scanned manuals for > the Vaxstation 4000/90. If anyone has a link to such documents, I would > appreciate it. Manx shows that the Owner's Guide and Service Information are online: http://vt100.net/manx/search?cp=1;q=vaxstation+4000;num=20;on=0 - Paul --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:09:37 -0400 From: "David de Gruyl" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000/90 Manuals Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org * on [03-05-02 10:27] Paul Williams wrote: >David de Gruyl wrote: >> >> I was looking around on the internet (mainly decdocs.org and linked >> sites, as well as google) and I was unable to locate scanned manuals for >> the Vaxstation 4000/90. If anyone has a link to such documents, I would >> appreciate it. >Manx shows that the Owner's Guide and Service Information are online: >http://vt100.net/manx/search?cp=1;q=vaxstation+4000;num=20;on=0 I was not aware of manx, thank you. David -- David de Gruyl --__--__-- Message: 18 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:35:05 -0700 (PDT) From: James Willing To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: More items from the 'Garage'... Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Finding myself (yet again) in the unenviable position of needing to free up both some space and a fair chunk of money in a (very) short amount of time, it is time to release a few more items from the 'Garage' to new homes... As I'm still having problems with getting (large) things shipped out, I'll be making one run out to the 'big city' to seek a shipping place for packing and shipping, so everything will go out at once... Items up for purchase: -------------------------------------- Heath H-11a / H27 system H-11a Chassis M7270 LSI 11/2 CPU WHA-11-16 16x16 RAM (2) H11-5 Serial card (2) WH11-5 Serial card H11-2 Parallel card H27 Floppy Interface H27 Dual Drive unit Untested, no docs or disk based software. Includes Heath paper tape based software. $600 plus shipping -------------------------------------- Heath H-10 paper tape reader/punch includes manual Runs but needs cleaning/alignment $150 plus shipping (or $100 if purchased w/H-11 system) -------------------------------------- Heath H-8 / H17 / H37 system H8 Chassis HA8-6 Z80 CPU WH8-64 RAM Multi Port Serial Card H17 Floppy Interface H37 Floppy Interface H17 Dual Drive unit H37 Dual Drive unit Runs, but has issues with formatting floppys... Includes hardware manual set, some software. $400 plus shipping -------------------------------------- Heath 8 inch drive chassis Not real sure of the ID on this one, but someone has suggested that it is H207-40 Drive chassis with one half-height 8 inch floppy drive installed. Blank panel suggests room for a second drive. Untested... no docs. $40 plus shipping -------------------------------------- Polymorphics Systems 8813/2 System Unopened, in original factory packaging! This unit is a twin of the 'amazing smoking computer' seen in the 'This Old Computer' presentation at VCF IV Dual drive, 64k RAM, original manuals and software. System 88 User's Guide System 88 Software Wordmaster This unit has not been out of it's box since it left the Polymorphics factory probably 20 years ago! Untested... (at least by me) obviously... $300 plus shipping -------------------------------------- All items are first come, first served... If you are in the area (SE Kansas) and can pick up then all the better. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw --__--__-- Message: 19 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 12:18:46 -0400 (EDT) From: philip@awale.qc.ca To: Patrick Finnegan Subject: RE: FS/FT Items Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org On 30-Apr-2003 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 philip@awale.qc.ca wrote: > >> >> On 29-Apr-2003 Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> > I'm looking for either QBUS parts, or $5 + shipping for each of the >> > following.. Trying to clean out my room before I have to move in a >> > few >> > months. >> > >> > - SparcStation 20, 32MB ram, 1x50MHz proc, floppy, 2GB HDD. >> > I have 2 of these to get rid of. >> >> I'd be interested in one of these. Or have they be claimed already. >> Could you give me an estimate on shipping to Qu?bec (J0B 2C0) ? > > All of the sparcstation 20's have been taken. Ah well. -Philip --__--__-- Message: 20 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 12:48:35 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Joe Subject: FA: HP computer manuals; Pascal, Fortran, IPC Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I've just finished listing a bunch of HP computer and software manuals on E-bay. A lot of the manuals cover HP-UX and are likly to be applicable to the IPC. Don't just go by the titles, look through the HP-UX manuals to see which one you think are applicable. Also listed HP pascal and Fortran manuals and a DATA I?O Setsite module for the Unisite programmer. see if interested. Joe --__--__-- Message: 21 From: "Patrick Rigney" To: Subject: RE: H89 disk formats? Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:27:26 -0700 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Dwight, I was going through a stack of HUG diskettes last night just taking stock of what I have, and lo and behold, I have a utilities disk with a HUG-modified H-17 driver that supports two-sided 40- and 80-track drives (hard sector still, of course). Judging from the instructions, it seems that basically replacing SY.DVD on a disk with this new driver (and of course, having the right drive in the machine) would get it working. It seems plausible that the disk could have been made on a system with this driver. It comes with assembly source as well, and even versions for machines upgraded to 3- and 4-Mhz operation. No mods to the controller itself appear to be necessary. Let you know if you'd like a copy. Patrick > >From: "Don Maslin" > > > >Dwight, I would assume that they were done on a 96tpi > >floppy drive. > > - don > > > > Hi Don > That is what I figured. I've been working on my serial > bootstrap and transfer program. I'm able to read and > write an image to the H89 but I'm still having issues > getting the formatting to work. I copied some old > code that I have in the Fig-Forth that I did but it > is still missing something. I even went back and ran > the Forth FORMAT and it works fine. I suspect there is > some other initialization that I'm missing. I looked at > one stretch of code and there is an operation that should > always hang. Can't figure why the original works. It > may be something connected to the timer interrupt that > isn't normally there. I wish I'd made good notes when > I did the original but this was one of my first computer > projects, after working on my Poly88, and brain rot > is now catching up with me. > Once I get the format working, I can work on cleaning > up the user interface. Looking at the 96 stuff is a > little later on the list. > Dwight --__--__-- Message: 22 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:17:12 -0700 From: Doug Coward To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org The Design Fort DTP wrote: > I would be interested to learn more about the Heathkit EC-1 > analog computer. So far I only found pictures and specifications > on the net. Is there a website that actually explained how > this machine worked and/or what it could/can do. > Even more are there informations about "programs" that this > machine could run? Most computer applications are simulations of one kind or another, word processors, spreadsheets, drawing programs, even a desktop GUI. Analog computers are the masters of the art of simulation, but they are not used for mundane simulations like these. Analog Computers run mathematical simulation of physical systems. Everything from the decay of subatomic particles to the interaction of two colliding galaxies. Do you want to: * See the results of a chemical reaction? * Test the design of an automobile tire? * Study the effects of pollution on a fish population? * Model blood flow through an organ? * Understand the effects of lowering the interest rate? * Fine tune the design of the Space Shuttle main engine? * Control flooding on a major river? * Explore new types of music? All of these are physical systems governed by mathematical equations. Analog computers are PURELY parallel and can run programs slower than real time, real time or faster than real time. Simulations can be halted at any point and all aspects of the simulation can be examined. Changes can then be made and the simulation can then be continued from the point it was halted or restart from the beginning. So, analog computers can not only simulate a fixed systems, but can also test 'what if' cases very easily. Analog computers can be a hardwired special purpose type or flexible general purpose type. The EC-1 with only nine amplifiers can be limiting in the size of simulations it will handle. But analog computers don't have the compatibility and the connectivity problem of digital computers. Ten EC-1s could be connected together to form an EC-1 with 90 amplifiers. The only problem would be if more than 9 integrators were used then a slight modification would have to be made to each EC-1 using an integrator to allow one EC-1 to control the mode. An EC-1 can also be directly connected to another brand of analog computer. No problem other than the mode control of integrators. The lure of the EC-1 is that it a inexpensive and compact example of vacuum tube computing. The world is analog. The human mind is analog. Digital computers make a nice hobby, and work just fine for tasks composed of sequential steps, but they are just an over hyped fad. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= --__--__-- Message: 23 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700 From: Doug Coward To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Ethan wrote: > How does a resistive sheet computer work? Just a quick note for now. Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog computing called network analyzers. > In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers > stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? Fluidics (or fluid logic) can have both analog and digital processes. You can perform boolean operations, but you also can have fluid amplifers. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= --__--__-- Message: 24 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org >X-Server-Uuid: 262C4BA7-64EE-471D-8B02-117625D613AB >X-Authentication-Warning: huey.classiccmp.org: mailnull set sender to cctalk-admin using -f >From: "Doug Coward" >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 >X-BeenThere: cctalk@classiccmp.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 >List-Unsubscribe: , >List-Id: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , >List-Archive: >X-Original-Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700 >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700 >X-WSS-ID: 12AC63976885576-01-01 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Ethan wrote: >> How does a resistive sheet computer work? > > Just a quick note for now. > Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog >computing called network analyzers. > >> In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers >> stack up? Digital? Analog? Mixed? > > Fluidics (or fluid logic) can have both analog >and digital processes. You can perform boolean >operations, but you also can have fluid amplifers. Hi An interesting side note. The power steering of your auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. Dwight > --Doug >========================================= >Doug Coward >@ home in Poulsbo, WA > >Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center >http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog >========================================= --__--__-- Message: 25 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:07:02 -0600 From: emanuel stiebler To: "cctalk@classiccmp.org" Subject: Looking for a 11/44 in denver area / colorado Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hi, Anybody out in colorado with a "spare" 11/44 ? Or even just a power supply for a 11/44 ? cheers & thanks --__--__-- Message: 26 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:41:54 -0700 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Geoff Reed Subject: RE:256x4 80NS or faster Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org the ones I'm trying to match are TMS44C256-80 At 07:54 AM 5/1/03 -0700, you wrote: >I have a fair quantity of the following: > >P21256-12 >MCM6256BP12 >Lh21256-12 >MTC4c1024-8 >KM41C1000BP-8 > >thanks Norm >snip: > > >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:37:28 -0700 > >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >From: Geoff Reed > >Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster > >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > >anyone have any of these floating around? I can't believe I gave 'em all > >away and now I need to populate a laserjet IIID memory board :( --__--__-- Message: 27 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:12:52 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Joe Subject: RE:256x4 80NS or faster Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org At 01:41 PM 5/2/03 -0700, you wrote: >the ones I'm trying to match are TMS44C256-80 These are 4 x 256k RAMs. See my previous post about where to find them. Joe > >At 07:54 AM 5/1/03 -0700, you wrote: >>I have a fair quantity of the following: >> >>P21256-12 >>MCM6256BP12 >>Lh21256-12 >>MTC4c1024-8 >>KM41C1000BP-8 >> >>thanks Norm >>snip: >> >> >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:37:28 -0700 >> >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >From: Geoff Reed >> >Subject: 256x4 80NS or faster >> >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> >> >anyone have any of these floating around? I can't believe I gave 'em all >> >away and now I need to populate a laserjet IIID memory board :( --__--__-- Message: 28 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:24:58 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Joe Subject: Re: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hi Peter, At 08:44 PM 5/2/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi All, > >Looks as though the CS80 / LIF part of my HPIB disk reader/writer is working >OK now - thanks to those who gave me pointers. > >I've come across another HPIB hard disk that that uses the Amigo command set >(- I think) and contains data in HFS format. I'd be surprised if it is Amigo and uses HFS. What kind of drive is it? I can tell you for certain what kind of command set it uses. > >Does anyone have full documentation for these two standards in .pdf format? You asked me about this a few days ago but I've been busy and forgot to reply. I have a document called "HP Flexible Disk Drive Command Set" that I'm pretty sure contains a description of the Amigo command set. It's an appendix to the HP 9114 disk drive service manual. It's 36 pages long. I can send you a copy or I'll send it to Al K. or anyone else that wants to scan it and post it on the web somewhere. Joe > >Cheers > >Peter Brown > >_________________________________________________________________ >On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile --__--__-- Message: 29 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:36:10 -0700 From: Doug Coward To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Ethan wrote: > How does a resistive sheet computer work? I wrote: > Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog > computing called network analyzers. Oops, I need to correct this. Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog computing called passive element computers in which network analyzers are probably the biggest and most well known examples. But it also includes * conductive sheets * electrolytic tanks - create 3 dimensional simulations * resistor networks * pin and rod systems * resistor and capacitor network Passive element computers normally models a physical system using only passive R-L-C components, and solve equations in which dimensions in space are the independent variables, rather than time. Applications for passive element computers include things like the simulation of * reception patterns of a receiving antenna * temperture, and pressure flow in a nozzle * diffusion of material at a transistor junction Here is an example: You solder together a large two dimensional matrix of resistors (all the same value). At each node where the resistors are soldered together you solder a capacitor connected to ground. You then apply a voltage to one corner of this resistor and capacitor network. As the current flows through the network it begins to charge the capacitors. You now have a computer that simulates the heat flow across a metal plate the size of your matrix, both over distance and over time. Without the capacitors you are simulating only over distance. A resistive sheet is a resistor matrix with a very fine mesh. The finer the mesh, the better the simulation. "Rubber-sheet computers have been used extensively to study the trajectories of electrons and gas ions in vacuum and gas tubes" -Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= --__--__-- Message: 30 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:47:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Hi > An interesting side note. The power steering of your > auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier. > Dwight I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-) -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 31 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:10:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I was collecting all of my hex LED displays into one place so I can test them before embarking on a new 1802 project. I even dug into my old box of spare Elf parts and pulled out a small board with four TIL311 displays attached to a small microcontroller board - some kind of monitor/indicator given to me by the brother of the guy that got me into the 1802 as a kid. He had given it to me to harvest the TIL displays. I finally *looked* at the attached board to see what was on it - an NS 8073! I used to have access to an RB5X robot when I was a volunteer at the local science museum in High School - same chip - the hot-item-for-a-brief-moment microcontroller with embedded Tiny Basic. Now, rather than harvest the parts, I'm very tempted to reverse-engineer the schematic of the little board to see what it does. Looks like there's a small bipolar PROM, a 6116 SRAM, one or two TTL chips, and the TIL311s driven by the output pins of the 8073. The whole thing is only a few square inches. The funny thing is that I'd recently picked up a few 8073s from ePay to play with. I was planning on hooking them up to some 8031-based 8-line LCD displays I got for a few bucks each (originally out of some flavor of AT&T office phone, IIRC). Sort of the Classic Attraction principle in reverse - new toys attracting alike items from the recesses of the junk box rather than the normal way 'round. Has anyone else played with the 8073 (in an RB5X or not)? If they hadn't been so pricey 20 years ago, I might have gotten one to experiment with back then. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 32 From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Looking for a 11/44 in denver area / colorado To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:35:53 +0100 (BST) Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Hi, > Anybody out in colorado with a "spare" 11/44 ? > Or even just a power supply for a 11/44 ? Are you missing the PSU, or do you have one that doesn't work? Although it's by no means my favourite PSU to work on, it is possible to repair these supplies and live to tell the tale (!). If you're happy working on SMPSUs (with lethal 400V DC supplies everywhere), I can probably help you find the fualt -tony --__--__-- Message: 33 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra From: David Holland To: Classic Computer Talk Date: 02 May 2003 20:28:24 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Howdy all, I stumbled across a Northgate Omnikey Ultra (not UltraPlus) keyboard in the local thrift store, and picked it up for 5$. (It had a nice feel, kinda PS/2'ish, and no stupid windows, or various other internet/volume controls/etc keys.) I've had it for about a week now, and just can't get used to funky arrangement of the arrow keys in the middle, and the F keys on the left just throws my Unreal Tournament gaming off. (See http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com for some piccy's) Anyways, I gather these things were something of a 'gotta have it' keyboard at one time, and were bloody expensive. Thought I'd offer it up here, for 5$ + shipping before it goes downstairs in the basement to collect dust. One thing to note, is its got one of the AT style connectors in back, so you'll need an adapter if your going to plug it into a PS/2 style connector. (No, you can't have the one I was using) Visually, its pretty clean, there's a little green stuff on the bottom where I attacked (mostly ineffectively) some sticky stuff w/ a scrubbing sponge, but the top is (imho) nice and clean. I think all the keys work, however, there might be a few F keys I didn't hit the week I was using it. I gather it might of came with some extra keycaps when it was new, so you could move around control/shift. I do not have those. Anyways, enough disclaimers, Anyone want it? (I think this is at least on-topic) David --__--__-- Message: 34 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:11:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org >From: "Doug Coward" > > Ethan wrote: >> How does a resistive sheet computer work? > > I wrote: >> Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog >> computing called network analyzers. > > Oops, I need to correct this. > Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog Hi This is the place to describe my method of finding shorts on power planes. This is very much like the resistive sheet methods. You place a power supply across one of the two planes that has shorts between them, such that about one or two amps is flowing in current limit. You place one lead of a volt meter on the opposite plane and then probe with the other lead on the plane with the current flowing across it. You find a line where the meter reads zero. Now, move the power leads to an orthogonal corners. Again fine the line of zero volts. Where the two lines cross, you'll find the short. There are variations of this method for finding shorts between traces and even multiple shorts. Dwight --__--__-- Message: 35 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:45:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival To: Classic Computers Mailing List , Subject: VCF Europa 4.0 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org This weekend is VCF Europa 4.0 in Muenchen, Deustchland! Complete information is on the VCF Europa website: http://www.vcfe.de I look forward to reports from those that make it since I won't be present this year :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * --__--__-- Message: 36 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Northgate OmniKey Ultra From: Frank McConnell Date: 02 May 2003 18:33:14 -0700 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org David Holland wrote: > I've had it for about a week now, and just can't get used to funky > arrangement of the arrow keys in the middle, and the F keys on the left > just throws my Unreal Tournament gaming off. So we know it's one of the sort with the Omni key instead of an inverted-T layout. If it's an Ultra, it should also have the function keys across the top. > Anyways, I gather these things were something of a 'gotta have it' > keyboard at one time, and were bloody expensive. Not that bad. In the mid-1990s you could get them for about $70, which seems expensive for a keyboard, but for those of us who really wanted the control key to be to the left of A and didn't want to have to fuss with driver software to make it happen, it was well worth it. If you want expensive, go check out the Avant Stellar! That is reportedly the modern Northgate OmniKey, and it sells for about $150. > I gather it might of came with some extra keycaps when it was new, so > you could move around control/shift. I do not have those. So, some questions to help folks ID what you've got. Is the control key to the left of A? Where are the switches? Poking out the back, or hidden under the "OmniKey" flip-top lid, or not present at all (flip the lid up, see nothing)? Not present at all means it is a late-model programmable keyboard. They had firmware bugs, and the "fix" was "remove the EEPROM that holds the key remappings". > Anyone want it? (I think this is at least on-topic) Somebody better! -Frank McConnell --__--__-- Message: 37 From: "Greg Elkin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:30:30 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX4000/5050A drive sleds Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed - anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these things ; the chasis has a drive drive backplane at the top with 4 edge connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in. I need to knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches. Unless anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?... Ohhh, wonder if the MDS pils of docs has any details on this - off to look now :) ta greg --__--__-- Message: 38 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:52:02 +1200 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 From: Alan Greenstreet To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Hi All I have just acquired a System 80 MkII (distributed in Australasia by Dick Smith Electronics). On power up I get the LED power light ok but a screen full of random characters, the reset switch does nothing. I've had it apart and there are no loose connections or chips on the two main boards and no sign of any burnt or expired components. Has anyone had similar problems and / or knows what the problem is? Thanks Alan --__--__-- Message: 39 From: "Robert F. Schaefer" To: Subject: Re: MicroVAX4000/505A drive sleds Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 07:15:32 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Elkin" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: MicroVAX4000/505A drive sleds > Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed - > anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these > things ; the chasis has a drive backplane at the top with 4 edge > connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in. I need to > knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches. Unless > anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?.. Cant help with the sleds, but it is possible to run DSSI drives without the ID plug, see http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html. Short answer: logon to the console of the drives' embedded processor and tell it it's new address! Can your peasea do that? ^_^ > ta > greg Bob --__--__-- Message: 40 From: "Bob Clark" To: Subject: Gnomes Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:19:40 +0100 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Yes I remember Bob Clark (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/014196.html) because I am he, and I remember Peter Turnbull too. This is getting silly, because this week I have relocated Bill Olivier (CommunITel) and Lindsay Reid (Viewfax 258), mostly by accident. Best regards, Bob --__--__-- Message: 41 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 11:00:47 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Joe Subject: HP's Amigo Protocall & HP IPC Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Yesterday I was cleaning out and putting some excess HP manuals on E-bay. One of the books that I found, HP-UX Concepts and Tutorials - Device I/O and User Interfacing, looked interesting but was still sealed so I listed it without opening it to see exactly what it covered. (I'm not real big on HP-UX). Today I found another copy of the same manual. It was alreadu opened so I've been reading through it. First, it DOES cover the HP IPC (Intergral Personal Computer) along with the HP 9000 Series 200/300, Series 500 and Series 800 computers. Each function that only applies to certain systems is flagged and there are appendices for the IPC and each of the other series that list and describe any peculiarities of that implementation. BUT what was even more surprising is that it states that many of the HP printers use the Amigo protocall! For the ones of you that aren't familiar with HPs that protocall is used for low end disk drives. This is the first time that I've heard that ! was also used for printers. Besides that statement it also has a "non-trivel" programming example of an "HP-IB driver that uses the Device I/O Library subroutines to drive various models of the HP Amigo protocall HP-IB printers". This might be a good starting point for anyone that wants to write and Amigo driver to talk to disk drives. Are you listening, Sergio and Peter? This book is definitely a keeper! It describes the HP-IB and GPIO interfaces for the various systems in detail including their status and control registers. It then describes how to use the DIL (Device I/O Library) included with HP-UX to set, read and control the interfaces and how to link calls to the DIL from Fortran, Pascal and Assembly language programs. It looks like a great source of info for anyone that wants to write their own device drivers or wants low level control of HP-IB and GPIO interfaces under HP-UX. I'm keeping this copy but I have another one that's already on E-bay. I know this sounds like a shameless plug but it's not. I'm just really impressed with this book. Joe --__--__-- Message: 42 From: "Bob Clark" To: Subject: Fw: Viewfax 258 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:07:24 +0100 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Clark To: mel@pullen.com ; danny@spesh.com ; Glyn Philips ; Lindsay Reid Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: Viewfax 258 My god what a week this has been for finding old friends. First Bill Olivier, then Sue wakes me up this morning (or afternoon possibly) - there's a Lindsay Reid on the phone, would I like to talk to him? What, talk to Lindsay for the first time in 15 years, yawn oh ok then if I must. This three days after we had complained that Lindsay had gone completely unfindable on the web, and was obviously dead. What we didn't do of course was try www.viewfax.com. Lindsay was ringing to ask if anyone remembers or better still knows a man from the olden pirate radio days called Richard Fox-Davies, aka Dick. This name rings strong bells with me, but I can't remember why. Anyone? (My extensive researches this afternoon reveal that his books for kids are still popular in Western Australia, assuming this is the same guy: http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au:90/search/aFox-Davies/afox+davies/1,3,25,B/ e xact&FF=afox+davies+dick&1,2 ) This may be a justified cause for an NTK (http://www.ntk.net/) appeal Dan, because... ... the good news is that Lindsay still has Viewfax 258 backed up on 5.25" floppy disks. There's quite a few disks, and we'd have to sort through them somewhat to find the Gnomey bits. But Lindsay is happy to loan his disks to Glyn the man with the archaic hardware, all he needs is his address. Then he'd like his disks back. I figure we could probably blow the lot onto the first quarter inch of a CD for him. So our dream may come true and we'll have both the Gnome on Prestel and the Gnome at Home splurged all over our shiny new web site. Meanwhile, please admire my wonderfully wonky first-stab character set one more time... Bob PS Late-breaking news, Peter Turnbull rediscovered too: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/014196.html [demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of viewfax7.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 43 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 08:11:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival To: Classic Computers Mailing List , Subject: VCF Europa Live Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I fixed the VCF Europa Live pages from the vintage.org server. To see live pictures from VCF Europa 4.0, go here: http://www.vintage.org/2003/europa/ ...and click on "VCF Life". Look for the guy in the Blue Shirt and that will be Hans (Hansi Smurf). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * --__--__-- Message: 44 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:16:30 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org From: Joe Subject: Re: HP's Amigo Protocol, HFS Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org At 05:53 PM 5/3/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >The drive is a 9134XV - It's definitely an Amigo drive then. serial number begins with 23 so I guess that it >would be from around 1983. Correct. If I look at the drive with an HP 9000 332 it >sees an HFS partition - with basic 6.0 binaries :). My initial thought was the Amigo wouldn't suppport HFS but after some thought I don't see any reason that it wouldn't. > >When I ask the drive to identify itself it returns a pair of bytes that I >don't recognise (1 and 15 from memory but I could be wrong). This pair of >bytes is not the same as the pair that would be returned by a CS80 drive. I don't know much about the internals of the drives so I don't know what those might mean. I looked at the docs that I have on the 9133XV and I don't see anything with those numbers. Check them and let me know if that's the right numbers. If it's not, tell me the correct numbers and I'll see if they match anything in the specs. > >I managed to check the reader software with a pair of 9133 drives, a 9134 >drive (which fails) That's odd. Is the drive bad? Most systems identify a 9134 as a 9133 with no floppy drive. What kind of HP system are you checking these on and what BootROM does it have? Does the HP system show the 9134? What letter model is the 9134? and a 7907 drive (this identifies itself correctly but >appears to have been wiped of data at some time). > >I have some other software recorded on 7906 removable cartridges - does >anyone know if an HPIB version of this drive was made? - I think that the >model number may be 7906H but I have no further information. Does anyone >have a 7906H tht they don't need? I'm not sure of the model numbers but it appears that HP made both HP-IB and MAC versions of the 7906. I believe that they used an adapter (pn 12745C/D) to convert from MAC to HP-IB interface. The two models that I have listed in my HP 9000 Configurator manual are 7906M and 7906MR. The docs also list 7906C/D and I THINK those are M/MR models with Option 102 installed. No idea what option 102 is. Reading further I found, "There is no HP 9000 interface for the 13037 controller without an HP-IB adapter. The 7906H/HR ICD disks sare known not to work. The usability of the 7906S(slave) 7906A/B and 7905A disk is not known." Italics are HPs. I hope that confuses you as much as it did me! BTW the 13037 is some kind of MAC interface. I had one but gave it to Eric. BTW HP says that these drives are not supported under BASIC, HP-UX or Pascal! (at least at that time) It also says that no support is planned for any HP 9000 system. Also they state that these drives are obselete and recommend that people use the newer and more economical 7907A drives. I looked under the 7907 description to see if it would read the 7906 media but it doesn't say. However the 7907 tape media was 20.5 Mb vs 9.8Mb so it is different. The 7908 drive is described as 16.6 Mb fixed disk and a "1/4 inch "88140" shared controller tape drive". Most (all?) of the newer drives that incorporate tape drives are also described as 88180 tape drives so the drive and media used in the earlier 7906 and 7907 are different from the later stuff. Joe --__--__-- Message: 45 Subject: Re: Northgate OmniKey Ultra From: David Holland To: Classic Computer Talk Date: 03 May 2003 15:48:02 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 21:33, Frank McConnell wrote: > David Holland wrote: > > I've had it for about a week now, and just can't get used to funky > > arrangement of the arrow keys in the middle, and the F keys on the left > > just throws my Unreal Tournament gaming off. > > So we know it's one of the sort with the Omni key instead of an > inverted-T layout. > > If it's an Ultra, it should also have the function keys across the > top. It does. Across the top, and on the left. > > > Anyways, I gather these things were something of a 'gotta have it' > > keyboard at one time, and were bloody expensive. > > Not that bad. In the mid-1990s you could get them for about $70, > which seems expensive for a keyboard, but for those of us who really > wanted the control key to be to the left of A and didn't want to have > to fuss with driver software to make it happen, it was well worth it. > > If you want expensive, go check out the Avant Stellar! That is > reportedly the modern Northgate OmniKey, and it sells for about $150. Saw'm for as much as 198$ a couple of places.. (ouch) > > > I gather it might of came with some extra keycaps when it was new, so > > you could move around control/shift. I do not have those. > > So, some questions to help folks ID what you've got. > > Is the control key to the left of A? No, control-key is in the bottom left hand corner. (I guess its not quite identical to the picture on northgate-keyboard-repair.com - My bad.) The bottom corner keys are laid out something like so: Capslock Shift Control [Grey < & > key] Alt > > Where are the switches? Poking out the back, or hidden under the > "OmniKey" flip-top lid, or not present at all (flip the lid up, see > nothing)? Under the lid are a set of dip switches and what looks to be a orange reset switch. It claims to be Rev 7.03 on the back of the keyboard. > > Not present at all means it is a late-model programmable keyboard. > They had firmware bugs, and the "fix" was "remove the EEPROM that > holds the key remappings". > > > Anyone want it? (I think this is at least on-topic) > > Somebody better! I've got a couple of follow up's already. (Hopefully they're paying attention when I say: I'll find out what shipping/postage is to their respective zip code(s) on Monday, once I can figure out what kinda box I can find) David > > -Frank McConnell --__--__-- Message: 46 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 13:09:08 -0700 From: Marvin Johnston To: ClassicCmp Subject: Soroc IQ120 Chip Problem Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I finally started digging in to find out what was wrong with a couple Soroc IQ120s. The first one was easy; just a memory chip (2102) that went bad. The second one is a bit tougher. I *think* I have the problem narrowed down to a Signetics 82S201 PLA, and therein lies the problem. Is there a replacement chip available, and is the coding of the chip available? If the coding is not availble, can I just go through a counter on the input and record the output states to come up with the chip programming? Needless to say, I am not real familiar with these devices :). There are two of these devices in parallel, and when I pull out the supected bad one (one makes no difference, pulling the other one starts the screen display again), the screen starts to work again. My suspicion is that the two are in parallel to increase the drive to the other chips. There are probably more problems since I don't hear the beep when the unit is turned on. The keyboard unit has already been checked out on the working Soroc. Any thoughts or comments? --__--__-- Message: 47 From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: HP9915 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 00:48:32 +0100 (BST) Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org I've recently had an HP9915 on the bench. This, as many of you are aware, is related to the HP85, but it's in a metal case with no printer, keyboard (although there is a keyboard connector on the back) or monitor (again, there's a composite video output on the back). Some details of the insides : Almost all the HP ICs are the same as those in the HP85 (CPU, CRT controller, RAM controller, Keyboard controller, ROMs, I/O buffer, even the printer controller is there). Much of the rest of the circuitry is similar to that in the HP85 (PSU, etc). There's an extra 8048 microcontroller that handles the power-on reset, self-test and autostart keys, and the front panel LEDs. It connects to the HP CPU via an I/O Translator IC, which is the same as the one used in the HP85 interface modules. Also linked to this microcontroller is a PCB that can contain up to 8 2716 (or 2732 if you rearrange the links) EPROMs. I have no idea (yet) how to format data to put in said EPROMs. The large board in the bottom of the case contains the PSU, and much of the logic circuitry. There are 6 'option ROM' spaces at the back of this board, identical to those in an HP85 ROM drawer. The PSU provides the same voltages, in much the same way, as the HP85 CPU. The output of the transformer is rectified and fed t oa switching converter (U30, 3524 is the controller IC) to provide +12V, -5V and -12V. This poweres a second switching converter to provide +5V. The +6V is obtained by a linear regulator. There is a crowbar (Q4) which will short out the input to the first PSU if the +12V line rises too high. This will then blow the mains fuse (something to check if the mains fuse blows at switch-on -- maybe Q5, PIC645, the first chopper is shorted). Another PCB plugged into the left edge of the main PCB contains the video RAM, printer chip (used here for the timers, I suspect), buffers/clamp networks for the keyboard and control connectors, a state machine to generate the video sync signals, and the composite video mixer. It has been suggested this is the 'operator interface' mentioned on the options box on the back, but I think not. I think this must be a standard part of the machine, and that the 'operator interface' is the keypad on the front. Talking of the keypad, the top 4 keys are connected as the k1-k4 keys of the HP85 keyboard. The blue key is connected as the shift key. On the back of the machine (actually on the vertically-mounted PCB that I mentioned a couple of paragraphs back) are 2 D connectors. The pinouts seem to be : Keyboard (DB25) 1 : chassis ground 2 : R0X (this is Row 0 output, buffered) 3 : R1X 4 : R2X 5 : R3X 6 : R4X 7 : Logic ground 8 : Logic Ground 9 : R5X 10 : R6X 11 : R7X 12 : R8X 13 : R9X 14 : C0X (Column 0 input, buffered) 15 : C1X 16 : C2X 17 : C3X 18 : C4X 19 : C5X 20 : C6X 21 : C7X 22 : KSX/ (Shift key, connect to logic ground to shift) 23 : KCX/ (Control key, ditto) 24 : KCLX/ (Caps lock key, ditto) 25 : SpkrX (Speaker output, return to logic ground) Control connector, DA15 1 : LED0X (High if top LED on frontpanel is on) 2 : LED1X 3 : LED2X 4 : LED3X 5 : LED4X 6 : LED5X 7 : LED6X 8 : LED7X 9 : RunX/ (RUN LED output) 10 : TestX (selftest LED output) 11 ; PWOX (Power OK output) 12 : Logic ground 13 : KeyStartX/ (ground for autostart key) 14 : KeyStX/ (ground for self test key) 15 : Chassis ground. The keyboard matrix would appear to be the same as that in the HP85 OK< a couple of questions 1) What is the impedance of the speaker in the keyboard (presumably between SpkrX and logic ground? 80 ohms? 2) What is the OD of the tape drive roller? Mine has decayed (what a suprise), and I need to rebuild it. It should be the same as the roller in the HP85, the HP9825, HP9815, etc.... -tony --__--__-- Message: 48 Date: 3 May 2003 23:53:08 -0400 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:53:07 -0400 From: "R. D. Davis" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Another rubber capstan turns to mush Organization: why? Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Quothe chuck@mail.schillernet.us, from writings of Sat, May 03, 2003 at 08:58:49PM -0400: > Hello All - bah, was just playing with my QIC drive, a WangTek > 5150ES (Using dos tar!) and halfway thru the first listing > tape stops. Turns out the rubber what drives the tape has gotten > very soft. Anybody have a box full of cheap replacements? Oops... it appears that you didn't use the /LCV (lowest capstan viscosity) flag ;-) to prevent the tar command from attempting to turn the rubber capstan into a tarry substance. :-( -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. --__--__-- Message: 49 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP Amigo command set and HFS disk format From: Frank McConnell Date: 03 May 2003 22:10:23 -0700 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org Joe wrote: > You asked me about this a few days ago but I've been busy and > forgot to reply. I have a document called "HP Flexible Disk Drive > Command Set" that I'm pretty sure contains a description of the > Amigo command set. It's an appendix to the HP 9114 disk drive > service manual. It's 36 pages long. I can send you a copy or I'll > send it to Al K. or anyone else that wants to scan it and post it on > the web somewhere. I think Joe sent me a copy of this a while back. Anyway, I fished it out of the pile in the living room and fed it to the scanner, with the result being at (1183KB) for the time being. Joe, are you sure this was in the 9114 service manual? Not the 9121 or 9133? I'm just thinking it wouldn't make much sense being in an HP-IL drive manual. -Frank McConnell End of cctech Digest From stephenj at mail.ru Mon May 5 22:15:24 2003 From: stephenj at mail.ru (stephen johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 In-Reply-To: <456C17E6-7D55-11D7-BB9C-0003937C53CC@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Alan Greenstreet To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:52:02 +1200 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 > > Hi All > > I have just acquired a System 80 MkII (distributed in Australasia by > Dick Smith Electronics). > > On power up I get the LED power light ok but a screen full of random > characters, the reset switch does nothing. I've had it apart and there > are no loose connections or chips on the two main boards and no sign of > any burnt or expired components. > > Has anyone had similar problems and / or knows what the problem is? > > Thanks > > Alan > check the power rails for good +5,-5 and +12 then check the 4116 ram chips. when they fail they get very hot. From comley at comcast.net Mon May 5 22:15:29 2003 From: comley at comcast.net (David and Nancy Keim Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: <0HED002PRNC7YW@mtaout03.icomcast.net> I brought home an HP64000 development system today. It has the emulation pods for the 68000 and 8080A processors, an HP-IB cable plus some other odds and ends in the backpack. A peak at the back indicated that it is crammed full of cards and 128K memory. Unfortunately what it doesn't have is either software or manuals, so this is a request to the group for help in that respect. I believe that there was a ton of software originally available for this unit to support various options and development tools, and I think what I am looking for is at least the operating system on floppy so that I can boot it up. Any background material on the 64000 would also be appreciated. I was impressed by the fact that it weighs almost as much as a model 33 Teletype yet it still has a handy reinforced carrying handle on the side for those portable sessions... Regards, Dave From mike at ambientdesign.com Mon May 5 22:16:12 2003 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 References: <456C17E6-7D55-11D7-BB9C-0003937C53CC@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <002901c312e7$fc530370$3d00a8c0@falco> Hi Alan (and the rest of the list), I have the technical manual for the Dick Smith System 80 Mk I and II. It includes technical data, troubleshooting procedures and circuit diagrams. I'm in Auckland, New Zealand. Think this might be of any help? Interestingly enough, it mentions checking the temperatures of the RAM (ICs Z27 through Z34) as part of the official RAM troubleshooting procedure - hot RAM -> "REPLACE RAM", apparently. Replacements are to be "4116 type Dynamic RAM of 250 nS or faster, Dick Smith part number Z9310". And no, that part number no longer appears in their catalogue... surprise! Other possible causes are listed as - bad power supply, especially the +12V rail. - bad 0.1 uF bypass capacitors - connection between CPU board and interface board damaged or unplugged - faulty ROM or CPU To reset the machine, apparently it's necessary to hold down 'Break' and 'Reset' at the same time. Good luck! If you can't resurrect it and/or get bored of it, let me know, I'd be interested in this machine, it'd be an interesting challenge to repair it. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Greenstreet" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 10:52 PM Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 > Hi All > > I have just acquired a System 80 MkII (distributed in Australasia by > Dick Smith Electronics). > > On power up I get the LED power light ok but a screen full of random > characters, the reset switch does nothing. I've had it apart and there > are no loose connections or chips on the two main boards and no sign of > any burnt or expired components. > > Has anyone had similar problems and / or knows what the problem is? > > Thanks > > Alan From jontitus at attbi.com Mon May 5 22:16:17 2003 From: jontitus at attbi.com (Jon Titus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:28 2005 Subject: Digital Group equipment? Message-ID: Does anyone follow or collect Digital Group equipment? This company, based in Colorado, had some nice equipment that let users plug in various CPU boards, yet the same basic memory, I/O, and peripheral controllers worked for all the CPUs. Data storage used Phi Deck cassette recorders, although in its later stages, someone may have offered a disk-drive controller. The Digital Group computers were quite popular with amateur-radio operators. Jon Jon Titus 36 Sunset Drive Milford, MA 01757-1362 USA Phone: +1-508-478-8040 E-mail: jontitus@attbi.com Member, National Association of Science Writers From ctbatchelder at conveytechnology.com Mon May 5 22:16:22 2003 From: ctbatchelder at conveytechnology.com (Cynthia Batchelder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: MINC-11 Message-ID: <008001c31312$4a332230$0400005a@Josephine> Do you know where I could find technical documentation for the MINC-11 or MINC-23? Cynthia Batchelder ctbatchelder@conveytechology.com From dwoyciesjes at comast.net Mon May 5 22:16:26 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Atari 800 (paging David Woyciesjes ) References: <7ED78D54-7F07-11D7-8358-0003937B82DA@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <3EB68813.7C00AABC@comast.net> David Betz wrote: > > I'm sorry for sending this to the list but I've tried several times to > use the email address above for private communications and my messages > have bounced. Does anyone know how to contact David Woyciesjes? I > thought he was located in the US but comast.net seems to be in the UK. > In any case, messages sent to the above address bounce (at least for > me). > > Thanks > David Betz > dbetz@xlisper.mv.com Aww, bugger. Sorry about that. I'll have to have a look at it. And Comcast is a US ISP. I'm here in CT. Might be something with me trying to use my home e-mail stuff through work's network... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dwoyciesjes at comast.net Mon May 5 22:16:30 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Atari 800 (paging David Woyciesjes ) References: Message-ID: <3EB6887A.C43CAB12@comcast.net> chris wrote: > > >I'm sorry for sending this to the list but I've tried several times to > >use the email address above for private communications and my messages > >have bounced. Does anyone know how to contact David Woyciesjes? I > >thought he was located in the US but comast.net seems to be in the UK. > >In any case, messages sent to the above address bounce (at least for > >me). > > comast.net might be in the UK, but comCast.net is in the US (notice the C > after the M). > > -chris > Huh? Err, did I screw up my settings??? DOH!!! Yep, I did. Now I feel stupid... And I call myself a Computer Support Specialist... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon May 5 22:16:35 2003 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Atari 800 (paging David Woyciesjes ) In-Reply-To: <7ED78D54-7F07-11D7-8358-0003937B82DA@xlisper.mv.com> References: <3EA937F7.6AC29623@comast.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030505214428.00a982c0@mail.n.ml.org> um, dave betz... it's COMCAST.NET 2 C's his address is very much valid. -John At 10:40 AM 5/5/2003, you wrote: >I'm sorry for sending this to the list but I've tried several times to use >the email address above for private communications and my messages have >bounced. Does anyone know how to contact David Woyciesjes? I thought he >was located in the US but comast.net seems to be in the UK. In any case, >messages sent to the above address bounce (at least for me). > >Thanks >David Betz >dbetz@xlisper.mv.com ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon May 5 22:23:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: A Vectrex Case goes for over $162 References: <200305060159.VAA29670@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <014101c3137e$9839aeb0$8d0bdd40@oemcomputer> I can put you on the list for one, as I have others now wanting one also. I have three or four of them myself right now with two working and the other two do not. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:59 PM Subject: Re: A Vectrex Case goes for over $162 > And thusly Keys spake: > > > > This just for a empty case???? The machines itself goes for $5 to $25 at the > > thrifts here. > > Do you have any!?!?!?!?! I would love one to play with!! > > Cheers, > > Bryan From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon May 5 22:34:00 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: DEC RL02 -vs- RL02-A In-Reply-To: <20030505183534.GB8752@subatomix.com> References: <1051889832.1783.246.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> <20030505142815.GB8648@subatomix.com> <20030505183534.GB8752@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <1052191776.2111.2.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2003-05-05 at 11:35, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Monday, May 5, 2003, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > On Friday, May 2, 2003, Barry Skidmore wrote: > > > Could someone tell what the differences are between a DEC RL02 -vs- a > > > RL02-A, or point me to the appropriate web site. > > > > Was there even such a drive? I've never heard of one. > Yes. The RL02A was the later version of the RL02. It had some "improvements" over the RL02. The dust sweep arm was removed on the RL02A (many RL02's had this done as a field change). The solenoid access cover for the top cover release was also removed. There are probably a number of other changes but those are the most obvious. -- TTFN - Guy From bob.c at dial.pipex.com Tue May 6 01:00:00 2003 From: bob.c at dial.pipex.com (Bob Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Gnomes References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030505210524.02c8b918@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <00c501c31394$8463b3c0$0200a8c0@Centaur> Ah, I was wondering who The Mad Sysop was, while looking through the old Gnome At Home pages today - gnow I gnow! Glyn almost certaignly already gnew, of course - the latter-day Gnome was more his domaign than migne. Bob PS I promise to stop all this gn stuff quite soogn... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob O'Donnell" To: Cc: "Bob Clark" Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Gnomes > At 15:19 03/05/2003 +0100, Bob Clark wrote: > > >Yes I remember Bob Clark > >(http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/014196.html) because > >I am he, and I remember Peter Turnbull too. This is getting silly, because > >this week I have relocated Bill Olivier (CommunITel) and Lindsay Reid (Viewfax > >258), mostly by accident. > > > >Best regards, > >Bob > > Hmm... want to add an ex-Micronet Employee, ClubSpot 810 editor, bulletin > board operator (incl. an official TG@H software user) Prestel message board > operator ("Free Speech") and suchlike? Namely Me! > > It's a small world. > > At 16:07 03/05/2003 +0100, Bob Clark wrote: > > > > >... the good news is that Lindsay still has Viewfax 258 backed up on 5.25" > >floppy disks. There's quite a few disks, and we'd have to sort through them > >somewhat to find the Gnomey bits. But Lindsay is happy to loan his disks to > >Glyn the man with the archaic hardware, all he needs is his address. Then he'd > >like his disks back. I figure we could probably blow the lot onto the first > >quarter inch of a CD for him. > > > >So our dream may come true and we'll have both the Gnome on Prestel and the > >Gnome at Home splurged all over our shiny new web site. > > I fancied at one point digging out some of my old Beebs, setting the > fileserver up again, and linking the lot to a terminal-server on the DSL, > and hey Presto, my TG@H clone back online again! But .. does anybody do a > Java applet that will run a viewdata terminal emulation? > > I have a complete archive of Freech backed up on various media, too, if > anyone were really interested in 15 year old ramblings from a moderated > chat board..! > > Give my regards to Glynn as and when you see him - he gave me a Terry > Pratchett book once when I was up there admiring the rats nest, and I'm > still reading them - just been given the new one as a present :-) :-) > > Rob. > (aka T.M.S., once.) From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 6 03:43:00 2003 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: hotrod Kaypro acquisition & problem Message-ID: <3EB7754F.1020901@pacbell.net> This past weekend I went to the monthly swap meet in Livermore, CA. I had a late start, the weather wasn't promising, and I was tired, but I hadn't gone for a while so I went anyway. I'm glad I did. I picked up a Kaypro II for $20, although the seller asked for "Oh, $20, maybe $15" since he seemed like a nice guy. It didn't have any floppies or any manuals, but the rest is pretty nice. First, the case is in great shape. It was well taken care of. On power up, the character generation is pretty clean. More interestingly, it has had a lot of mods done to it. I haven't opened it up yet, but some of the changes are evident anyway. 1) addition of a fan. this is way too noisy and I must replace it. Also, it appears to be powered from the DC side of the power supply; I infer this from the fact that the fan keeps running for 5-10 seconds after power is removed! 2) one of the full height 5.25" floppies is replaced with a hard drive. I haven't confirmed the size, but the seller recalled that it was 10 MB. The hard drive has been partitioned into A, B, C, and D drives. The remaining floppy is E. 3) there is a RAM disk, which is F. I'm not sure of the size yet. 4) On the rear there is a toggle switch: 2.5 MHz/5.0 MHz. Cool. 5) On boot up, I get a notice saying that it has the Advent TurboROM 3.0 (1985) modification. That is all to the good. Now the bad news. The seller tried to "erase the hard drive", but said he didn't remember enough how to do it. Well, he managed to erase the A partition, although B, C, and D are still there. As you might expect, A contained the most interesting stuff. I can't do PIP, nor STAT, nor ED, nor DDT. The built-in DIR and TYPE work, of course, as I imagine the other built-ins would. On cold boot and warm boot, I have to hit carriage return a dozen times or so to get past the "Drive A: BDOS bad sector" (or somesuch) spew, but I do eventually get a prompt. So his attempt to erase the hard disk got rid of the directory apparently, but not the boot tracks. I am hopeful that the information is still there, and all I need to do is somehow boot off of the remaining floppy and use a sector editor to unerase the damage done to drive A. However, the fact that it is saying "bad sector" instead of just saying drive A has "no files" on a DIR would seem to indicate things aren't so simple. I may need to completely rebuild drive A. I've combed through the various CP/M archives and have found out a bit about the Advent TurboROM. I believe that if I have a bootable disk, I can put it into the "E" floppy drive and it will become the "A" drive on a reboot. So that leaves the question: how to get a kaypro II disk image? I have a PC (P-166) lying around that I added a 5.25" drive to for the purpose of reading some trs-80 disks. I'm not sure of the drive density at the moment; that was a while back. What density drive should I use in my PC? What software it recommended for making a bootable disk? Short of bothering the tireless Don Maslin, are there any disk images available online that could help me out? Should I scratch any plans to recover the CP/M 2.2 image on the A drive and instead just attempt to reformat and reinstall CP/M (Or ZCPR?) All suggestions are welcomed. Thanks. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 6 04:00:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Digital Group equipment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2003, Jon Titus wrote: > Does anyone follow or collect Digital Group equipment? This company, based > in Colorado, had some nice equipment that let users plug in various CPU > boards, yet the same basic memory, I/O, and peripheral controllers worked > for all the CPUs. Data storage used Phi Deck cassette recorders, although > in its later stages, someone may have offered a disk-drive controller. The > Digital Group computers were quite popular with amateur-radio operators. Hi John. I have a Digital Group computer. I forget the model, but it has an 8080 CPU card in it. I'm seeking a PhiDeck cassette drive. Those are exceedingly cool (and exceedingly rare). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue May 6 06:44:00 2003 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: HP64000 In-Reply-To: <0HED002PRNC7YW@mtaout03.icomcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 2003, David and Nancy Keim Comley wrote: > I brought home an HP64000 development system today. It has the emulation > pods for the 68000 and 8080A processors, an HP-IB cable plus some other odds > and ends in the backpack. A peak at the back indicated that it is crammed > full of cards and 128K memory. > > Unfortunately what it doesn't have is either software or manuals, so this is > a request to the group for help in that respect. I believe that there was a > ton of software originally available for this unit to support various > options and development tools, and I think what I am looking for is at least > the operating system on floppy so that I can boot it up. Any background > material on the 64000 would also be appreciated. You may have yelled just in time. At one point I had (5) of these things in my garage. Most of the extra hardware is gone (although I may have one or two extra pods), but I did hang on to a large box of documentation and have all the latest-and-greatest software on diskette. I was planning a trip to the landfill, but will hold off on that in case you want any of it. If you are located within driving distance of Burlington, VT, you could also cart away one of the floor-standing 8" hard-disk units (weighs > 100lbs. and stores a whopping 5-MB). I wouldn't even consider shipping that beast. Let me know if you are interested in the docs. The diskettes would have to be duplicated, which means finding time and space to fire up the remaining system unit and remember how to use it . Perhaps someone on the list knows of a utility which permits copying the HP64k diskettes on a PC? Steve From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 6 07:23:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: <20030506122206.15774.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com> Steve, I am certainly interested in the docs and in the drive. I would be able to drive up and pick them up from you - I'm assuming the drive will fit in the back of a Volvo station wagon, does that sound feasible ? If you want to contact me off-list we can arrange something. Many thanks for the response. As far as the software goes, I'm definitely interested if there's a way to copy the diskettes. I'm assuming you don't want to part with the originals. I'll scout round for a utility of some sort. Regards, Dave david_comley@yahoo.com The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 6 08:04:00 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Northstar File Transfer from PC Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5127831@MAIL10> Dwight: I have a working N* Horizon system (dual drive, 56k RAM, monitor in ROM) and would be happy to lend my testing services. From time to time, I've wrestled with the same disk image manipulation issues for the Altair32 emulator, i.e., manipulating the disk image outside of the emulation environment itself. My conclusion was that there's no substitute for using the original OS for maniuplating the images. So, we developed several methods to move program files into and out of the emulator by using some home-grown and CP/M-native utilities and the file transfer functions of the terminal program on the PC. I really want to do an external "image management" program but haven't found a clean/easy way without essentially re-implementing portions of the base OS. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:23 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Northstar File Transfer from PC Hi Marvin Maybe this isn't exactly what you are looking for but I'm currently working on some software to transfer entire disk images through the serial port of a H89 to a PC. I have another friend checking out my first version, now. I hope to do a similar things for the N*'s as soon as I get one of these machines up and running ( on my list of things to do ). I suppose that once the image is on the PC, one can modify the image to include any new files, one wants and then transfer it back to the N*. It isn't a nice direct method but my main intent is to get some way to send disk images over the net and not specifically individual files. I haven't fiddled with the N* at all and don't know a lot about it. The H89 has a simple monitor that I use to hand enter a simple bootstrap program. With this, I bring in the rest of the code to run the disk drive. Does the N* have a ROM based monitor? I also have a similar setup for my Poly88 but that is setup for getting code into the Poly88 and tape from the PC. I used this to create code to do the various tape copying functions. I can read code from a cassette tape, transfer it through the serial to the PC and later feed it back through the serial to the Poly88 to write back onto tape. I use a similar bootstrapping code to get things started, through the Poly's monitor. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > >What is the procedure for transfering files to and from a PC using N* >DOS? For text from the N* to the PC, no problem, just print it out to >the terminal (a DOS machine) and capture it. But what about going the >other way, wanting to get information back to the N*? Any information >appreciated! > >------------------------------------------- >ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup >http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From bpope at wordstock.com Tue May 6 08:21:01 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: A Vectrex Case goes for over $162 In-Reply-To: <014101c3137e$9839aeb0$8d0bdd40@oemcomputer> from "Keys" at May 5, 03 10:20:33 pm Message-ID: <200305061308.JAA00905@wordstock.com> And thusly Keys spake: > > I can put you on the list for one, as I have others now wanting one also. I > have three or four of them myself right now with two working and the other > two do not. **S w e e t** That would be great!!! Thanks!, Bryan Pope From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue May 6 09:13:00 2003 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20030506031400.87091.22468.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20030506141122.86554.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Saturday was definitely the day to go. People offered me some stuff for free, because they were going to dumpster it. But I gave them a couple of dollars (usually the first price). Although last year, a guy sent me a TON of HP Laserjet IIp/IIIp parts for the cost of shipping. Which helped me fix a couple that I have here. I passed on a Power 100 (Power Computing PM8100 Clone) for $10.00. It was a logic board and I/O board in a case and PS with an FDD. No HDD or CD-ROM (though I have plenty of those..). But, I already have one. And didn't want to lug another home, just to have it sit in a corner. But, I was tempted.. LOL! I couldn't pass up the IIgs, and considering I have a unit that exactly duplicates it, perhaps I should have... But, it will make a nice gaming machine to give to someone and I have a few good games for it. And considering I still do the occasional maintenance on an educational program I wrote in the 80's, it's good to have a backup unit. Some people do leave stuff home, and remember to bring it back on Sunday though. So, early on Sunday you can find some things that weren't available on Saturday. And the last hour is the best time for dumpster diving! LOL! The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Tue May 6 09:34:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <002601c313dc$3e137020$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Sounds like there was FAR more to be had on Saturday than > Sunday when I went. I don't think I saw ANY Apple 2 stuff at all I went Saturday-not-Sunday and _was_ impressed, but for mostly the _wrong_ reasons, IE, not too much Classiccmp, but some good ready to use stuff. Going over my list of purchases, here's what I bought Jurclassicwise: 2-inch Sony microfloppies Sun 13w3 cable. D.G. SCSI terminator. period. and not: some guy's personal DVD's (scored: "Pi", "Enigma") USB and HD25 adaptors. 1 complete working UPS in 2 pieces, $10 white light 4LED flashlight, decent cheap Binoculars, chinese tools etc. I saw a DecWriterIII sell before 10am. There was 1 guy with everything old (5-10 years old, UG) but cheap, two HP SCSI storage enclosures & drives $5 each, lotza hubs and switches. Some Sun Ultra, HP Pentium Pro systems, not much. 1 indigo. 1 Alpha (period), memory raped. There were a LOT of parts for refurbushing your own UPS, about 5 sellers. One guy had Pentium pro,II-233,II-300 chips, $2.00 each (where classic is now apparently. *Warning*). It may rebound some after the Tech bust is over. Worth a trip (140 miles round for me), but Not if you Only want to buy classiccmp. There may be a market for Selling, If you've got the nack. John A. From brian.roth at fnfg.com Tue May 6 10:13:01 2003 From: brian.roth at fnfg.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Old Cisco Message-ID: Does anyone have a source for Old Cisco hardware, IOS, documentation info. Preferably pre 1990. Brian Roth Network Administrator A+ N+ CNA CCNA Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com ***************************************************************************** ********************* The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ***************************************************************************** ********************* BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:roth, brian TEL;WORK:2186 ORG:;Network Services TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com N:roth;brian X-GWUSERID:1372 END:VCARD From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 6 10:48:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: WTD: Qualstar 3412s or other Quad 9-track In-Reply-To: <000b01c30dfb$5af42d10$6500a8c0@starship1> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030506114738.465f7f40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just picked up a Qualstar 1260. Can anyone tell me anything about it? What kind of interface/controller does it need? It has an interface cable with a male D-subminiture connector with 62 pins in three rows. Joe At 10:59 PM 4/28/03 -0400, you wrote: >Anyone have one available for a low and decent price, I prefer the front >loaders and I need something with Quad Density as I've got varying tapes >from 800,1600 and 6250 that I need to read. > >I currently have a Qualstar 3404s which only does 1600/3200, if anyone is >interested in it or wants to do a trade plus $$$ > >I'd love an M4 9914 but I doubt anyone is willing to part with one cheap. > > > >Curt From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 6 11:03:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: <20030506160154.98873.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> I went on Saturday but skipped Sunday. Definitely worth the trip (120 miles R/T) although I didn't bring a whole lot home. I ended up with handful of TK50 tape cartridges (marked VMS5.4, but not sure if this is a complete set) and a scsi zip drive to replace the one I butchered 2 years ago. I passed on what appeared to be a 9-track tape drive and a Wang printer. One vendor was selling some VME components but other than that I wasn't tempted this time around. I wish I'd picked up one of the 68k Apples. I'm sure the Hamvention will have scads of them though. Regards, Dave The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 11:08:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20030506160154.98873.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506160627.39557.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Comley wrote: > I wish I'd picked up one of the 68k Apples. I'm sure > the Hamvention will have scads of them though. Bushels, even. :-) You going to be at all of the Hamvention or just part of it? I am going to be there at the opening bell on Friday; not sure about the rest of the weekend... got a lot going on then, unfortunately. I mostly go to find odd things and loose components, anymore. Long gone are the days where I could find PDP-8 and PDP-11 parts in every row. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 6 11:09:26 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Qbus posted Message-ID: <1dc.91c52e8.2be93791@aol.com> Ola; I posted some more Qbus cards on ebay. One is a rare Virtual Microsystems Z-Board with 4 virtual z80 systems. 4 Z80as & RAM on one card. Another is a console card from a 11/34a with the 8008 chip still on it. Also listed is a "Return to Zork" package. 11/03 CPUs also, which are closing shortly. http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0& userid=innfosale&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1&rd=1 Paxton Astoria, OR Innfosale on eBay From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 6 11:19:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >I wish I'd picked up one of the 68k Apples. I'm sure >the Hamvention will have scads of them though. Any particular model you are interested in? I have some extra 68k Macs here, maybe I have an extra of a model you are looking for -chris From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 6 11:23:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: <20030506162120.48019.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com> >>You going to be at all of the Hamvention or just part of it? Probably just stay for Friday. I am going to drive over Thursday from PA. and be there promptly (I hope) for the beginning. I went once before 7 or 8 years ago but didn't really have time to take in all the flea market. Seems a shame to miss out on the Sunday dumpster dive and free 'stuff' but can't be helped. I have already cleared out the back of the station wagon in readiness for a large quantity of purchases. I think I need to get one of those wheeled trolley things you see people with at hamfests. I seem to remember having to park at Wright-Patterson last time and taking a bus in, so there'll be no running back to the car after every purchase. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 6 11:30:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <006701c313eb$882e8be0$0500fea9@game> How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus scsi cards at these shows? I need 1 of each to max out my quadra 840av. Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? I have a nice syquest 44 drive and 10 carts I want to hook up to my IIgs. TeoZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > >I wish I'd picked up one of the 68k Apples. I'm sure > >the Hamvention will have scads of them though. > > Any particular model you are interested in? I have some extra 68k Macs > here, maybe I have an extra of a model you are looking for > > -chris > From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 6 11:39:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >>>You going to be at all of the Hamvention or just >part of it? > >Probably just stay for Friday. I am going to drive >over Thursday from PA. When and where is the Hamvention? I'm assuming from the name it is mostly Ham Radio stuff (something I'm not into), but since you guys seem to feel there will be some classic computer stuff, I might take the drive depending on time/date/location. -chris From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 6 11:49:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: <20030506164712.70282.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> >When and where is the Hamvention? Dayton, OH, and it's the weekend after next (Fri 16th May through Sunday). The focus is ham radio equipment but there was also a lot of computer gear and test equipment last time I was there. As a ham as well as a, er, whatever computer enthusiasts are called, it's worth the drive for me ! Chris, thanks for the offer of help on the 68k apple stuff. I didn't really have a specific model in mind. I was just thinking wistfully about all those macs stacked up at TCF and hoping they didn't get trashed. Dave. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rickb at bensene.com Tue May 6 11:57:01 2003 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: TSX-Plus Password Hacking & Other PDP-11 Issues In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030506114738.465f7f40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000301c313f0$4407da70$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Hello, everyone, I recently became the owner of a nice PDP 11/34A system. It has 248Kb of parity RAM, programmer's panel, RL11 w/1 RL01, RK11 w/3 RK05's, RX211 w/dual RX02 drives, EAE, DZ11, and standard console port w/RTC interrupt generator. I've got it so that it'll boot RT-11 V5.3 from one of the RL01 packs that I got with the machine. It appears that this pack also has the TSX-Plus (can't recall the version,.. 5.1A?) multi-user extension for RT-11 installed. Problem is, I can't login when I start up TSX-Plus because I don't know the PPN's or passwords. There's a file called ACCESS.TSX that appears to be the username/password database, but it appears to be stored in encoded form...I've tried dumping it in RAD50, as well as in HEX, OCTAL, and ASCII, and haven't been able to make heads nor tails of it. Does anyone know the structure of this file, and how it is encoded? I'd like to be able to get a few ports running on the DZ11 and see how it performs in a timeshared RT-11 environment. My long term goal is to get RSTS/E up and running on the machine. According to some of the docs, it's possible to run RSTS/E on an 11 with 1 RL01 and 2 RK05's, which I should be able to do, though I've not hooked up the RK11 (it has the RK11's backplane installed, but I've removed the UNIBUS jumper that connected the main backplane to the RK11's backplane and installed the terminator in its place) and RK05's as yet. Another issue I've got is that the machine gets unstable when I put the RX211 controller in. Sometimes the system behaves with it in place, other times, it doesn't. I have made sure that the NPG jumpers are removed on the backplane slots that the RL11 and RX211 are installed in (the last two slots on the 9 slot backplane). The UNIBUS is properly terminated. When the system behaves with the RX11 in place, I can intermittently read/write floppies, but, it's intermittent, and when it's not working, the whole machine gets pretty confused. The RX211 has its switches set to the standard settings as documented in the RX211 uuser's guide, and the interrupt priority header is the standard one also. I'm a little baffled. The backplane is full with the RX211 installed. The +5V power on the backplane is clean, and running at +4.98V. When I remove the RX211 and insert a NPG/Interrupt Grant jumper, the machine runs beautifully. Is this a sign of a sick RX211, or some kind of bus loading problem? Any help that all you DEC fans can give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 6 12:04:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <001001c313f0$671df080$0500fea9@game> http://www.hamvention.org/ There is a 2002 Remembered section and people have posted pictures there. Looks like quite a bit of computer equipment (looks like newer stuff). I went one year (early 90's) back when a 540mb HD was top of the line and expensive, but have no idea whats there these days. back then they had newer equipment inside and outside had the flee market type stuff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > >>>You going to be at all of the Hamvention or just > >part of it? > > > >Probably just stay for Friday. I am going to drive > >over Thursday from PA. > > When and where is the Hamvention? I'm assuming from the name it is mostly > Ham Radio stuff (something I'm not into), but since you guys seem to feel > there will be some classic computer stuff, I might take the drive > depending on time/date/location. > > -chris > From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 6 12:15:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >>When and where is the Hamvention? > >Dayton, OH, Ugh, no, too far. Dayton is probably about a 12 hour drive for me (I'm in the north east corner of NJ). I like old computers... but I would have to be guarentteed something good and dirt cheap to be willing to drive 24 hours round trip (Humm... I'd do it for a Lisa, but I doubt there will be any there... much less for cheap) -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 12:55:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention (was Re: Trenton Computer Festival) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506175330.73813.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- chris wrote: > >>When and where is the Hamvention? > > > >Dayton, OH, > > Ugh, no, too far. Dayton is probably about a 12 hour drive for me... >(Humm... I'd do it for a Lisa, but I doubt there will be > any there... much less for cheap) Chances are low. I expect to see some VAX stuff, plenty of 68K Macs, lots of low-end laptops and laptop parts, sun4m boxes, and of course, tons and tons of ISA shtuff, VGA monitors, etc. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From oldcomp at cox.net Tue May 6 13:02:00 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Digital Group equipment? References: Message-ID: <3EB7F810.8080201@cox.net> I collect, restore, and actually use them!! The Digital Group was way ahead of the times in a lot of ways, but poor management and customer service killed the company in the early eighties. Also of interest, The Digital Group began by selling information and hardware to improve the Mark 8 Minicomputer. They sold a number of items such as video cards and cassette tape interfaces, and wrote all the software to support the hardware. It is interesting to note that the software they wrote for the Mark 8 is almost identical in function and appearance to the software that was included with all of the systems sold by Digital Group later on. For more info, see my web pages: http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/tdg.htm http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/dg_restore.htm http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/dgsoftware.htm (You may also be interested in clicking on the link to my Mark 8 page!) -Bryan Jon Titus wrote: >Does anyone follow or collect Digital Group equipment? This company, based From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:04:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: TSX-Plus Password Hacking & Other PDP-11 Issues In-Reply-To: <000301c313f0$4407da70$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <20030506180200.62891.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Bensene wrote: > When I remove the RX211 and insert a NPG/Interrupt Grant jumper, the > machine runs beautifully. Always a good sign. > Is this a sign of a sick RX211, or some kind of bus loading problem? If you have multiple backplanes, bus loading is something to sit down and calculate - each peripheral is documented (in the handbooks of the period) with its AC and DC loads. Having personally run 11/34s with a full BA-11 (three backplanes including the CPU) loaded to the gills with peripherals (serial interfaces and disk, mostly), I haven't yet run into a problem that appeared to be bus loading. I would suspect the RX211 if the rest of the box seemed reasonable. One thing to identify is what else shares its BR level. ISTR most DEC cards were either BR4 or BR5. Remember that an interrupting device breaks the grant chain for all peripherals to the rear of the bus. There's a small chance that the offending device is at the same BR level as the RX211 and in *front* of it. If possible, try putting the RX211 at the front, then test. No reason to leave it there permenently - it should be a robust enough device to go anywhere in the Unibus (which is not true of some cards on the Qbus, especially when an RQDX1 is involved, but that's another story). Without knowing details about the states of the Unibus arbitration signals (that you almost certainly don't know), it's tough to guess what might be wrong. There is a "PDP-11 Bus Handbook" out there - slim and pale blue. It contains much wisdom if you can find a copy. Also, don't be afraid to use older docs, even back to the 11/20 - the Unibus did evolve a little over the years (MUD slots vs SPC, etc.), but the underlying handshaking didn't mutate much. That's why you can take a PDP-11/20 card and drop it in an 11/84. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:10:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention (was Re: Trenton Computer Festival) In-Reply-To: <20030506164712.70282.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506180909.64411.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Comley wrote: > >When and where is the Hamvention? > > Dayton, OH, and it's the weekend after next (Fri 16th > May through Sunday). The focus is ham radio equipment > but there was also a lot of computer gear and test > equipment last time I was there. There's always lots of everything there (except what you are looking for ;-) Several test equipment vendors show up with bakery rack after bakery rack full of HP and Tektronix gear - other vendors sell box after box of Tek manuals. There's lots of older computer _and_ radio gear, but there's a definite window of opportunity in terms of age - kinda like the stuff you see at the thrift store change over time. Once, they were loaded with Commodore and Atari gear. Much less now. It's a case of identifying what's just become obsolete in the business world and expecting to see piles of _that_. When I first went (1982), DEC equipment was everywhere, PeeCee equipment was virtually nowhere, and there was plenty of people selling Commodore VIC-20s and CW gear and other things of that vintage. Given what I've been seeing at the Ohio State surplus, I'm expecting a bumper crop of pre-G3 PowerMac gear - stuff that won't run OS X at all and won't go much past MacOS 8.6 without a fight. There should also be plenty of PeeCee parts from machines that shouldn't run NT/2000/XP on a dare. There will also be radio vendors, antenna vendors, battery vendors, etc. Mendelsson's will probably have their large tent with pallets of slightly-crushed UPSes, ammo cans and other surplussy things. I go, but I buy less and less each year - I'm not in it for the mainstream stuff - for that, I go to the ComputerFest (same venue, but all indoors) in March and August. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:22:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Parking (was Re: Trenton Computer Festival) In-Reply-To: <20030506162120.48019.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506182006.91196.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Comley wrote: > I seem to remember having to park at Wright-Patterson last time > and taking a bus in, so there'll be no running back to > the car after every purchase. Woof! As I said, I get there early on Friday, so I park at one of the local businesses that sell $5 spots - they are to the left of the car lot as you leave the arena, and behind the restaurants. Do _not_ park adjacent to the car lot. They do ticket and tow. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:24:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <006701c313eb$882e8be0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20030506182217.37717.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- TeoZ wrote: > How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus > scsi cards at these shows? > I need 1 of each to max out my quadra 840av. 10/100 NuBus? Never seen one. 10? $1-$5 each. I've also never seen SCSI NuBus cards at University Surplus _or_ the Hamfest/Computerfest. The NuBus cards I've seen tend to be 10mbps Ethernet and video cards in a IIc or similar. > Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? Sometimes. Kinda rare, though. Best bet is a IIgs that has one inside that nobody knows what it is. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:39:00 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention (was Trenton Computer Festival) Message-ID: <20030506183714.20928.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> >>Mendelsson's will probably have their large tent with pallets of slightly-crushed UPSes, ammo cans and other surplussy things. Refresh my memory, does Mendelsson's have a warehouse-like store in downtown Dayton, crammed full of retired electronics (and office furniture) ? I worked in Dayton many years ago and I remember spending some interesting lunchtimes in this warehouse-like store looking for goodies. Of course the one thing no-one should miss when in Dayton is - Marions' Pizza. Ask for it by name. Dave. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 6 13:40:49 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >10/100 NuBus? Never seen one I'm pretty sure Farallon made one. I've seen people requesting them on the LEM Swap list, but I don't know what kind of a price they get. I would imagine at least $20 or so, if for no other reason than they aren't all that common (unlike 10Mb Nubus cards which can be had for just a few $ each... I think I paid $10 for a box of 12 assorted on ebay about a year ago) >> Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? > >Sometimes. Kinda rare, though. Best bet is a IIgs that has one >inside that nobody knows what it is. I'm still waiting for one of those as well. eventually I'll find one. -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 6 13:54:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <005101c313ff$b3c61fc0$0500fea9@game> Mass stroage controllers for any of the old classics (Atari ST, Amiga 500, Apple IIgs) are very hard to find and always command a few bucks on ebay. I just cant see spending $50 or more for a scsi card for a complete system that was $30 shipped with monitor disk drives etc. Guess I will keep looking. LEM has some nice deals if you view the list every day (stuff gets sold quick if the price is good). The nubus uwscsi cards go quick to people with old A/V capture systems that need the speed (the reason I want one) ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > >10/100 NuBus? Never seen one > > I'm pretty sure Farallon made one. > > I've seen people requesting them on the LEM Swap list, but I don't know > what kind of a price they get. I would imagine at least $20 or so, if for > no other reason than they aren't all that common (unlike 10Mb Nubus cards > which can be had for just a few $ each... I think I paid $10 for a box of > 12 assorted on ebay about a year ago) > > >> Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? > > > >Sometimes. Kinda rare, though. Best bet is a IIgs that has one > >inside that nobody knows what it is. > > I'm still waiting for one of those as well. eventually I'll find > one. > > -chris > From allanh at kallisti.com Tue May 6 13:56:00 2003 From: allanh at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Qualstar 1260 In-Reply-To: <20030506170001.92243.28312.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20030506170001.92243.28312.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20030506115516.A19782@kallisti.com> Joe wrote: > I just picked up a Qualstar 1260. Can anyone tell me anything about it? > What kind of interface/controller does it need? It has an interface cable > with a male D-subminiture connector with 62 pins in three rows. I have a 1260 also; it is a 1600/6250bpi drive. They're not exactly fast, but are nice and compact. It has a Pertec formatted interface. The cable on it was probably for an Overland Data controller; if you remove the cover plate the cable goes through you'll see that it terminates at two 50 (I think) pin connectors in the drive. Those use the standard Pertec pinout. allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh@kallisti.com From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue May 6 14:02:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention (was Trenton Computer Festival) In-Reply-To: <20030506183714.20928.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, Mendelson's has the warehouse store still. And as for missing Marions Pizza... well, I've heard rumors that it used to be much better. As it currently is you aren't missing much. (imho) Personally, I prefer Ron's "Salt Special" David PS: Salt Special: Bacon & Olives :) (Incase your arteries ever start feeling too soft and flexible) On Tue, 6 May 2003, David Comley wrote: > >>Mendelsson's will probably have their large tent > with pallets of slightly-crushed UPSes, ammo cans and > other surplussy things. > > Refresh my memory, does Mendelsson's have a > warehouse-like store in downtown Dayton, crammed full > of retired electronics (and office furniture) ? I > worked in Dayton many years ago and I remember > spending some interesting lunchtimes in this > warehouse-like store looking for goodies. > > Of course the one thing no-one should miss when in > Dayton is - Marions' Pizza. Ask for it by name. > > Dave. > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:08:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506190645.20796.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- chris wrote: > >10/100 NuBus? Never seen one > > I'm pretty sure Farallon made one. I'm sure someone did; it's just too pricey for the places I find Mac gear (like under wet rocks ;-) > >Sometimes. Kinda rare, though. Best bet is a IIgs that has one > >inside that nobody knows what it is. > > I'm still waiting for one of those as well. eventually I'll find > one. Best I've done so far was a ROM 03 IIgs with a 1MB RAM card (1/4 full, but I have lots of 256Kx1 DRAMs) for about $10. No SCSI. :-( -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue May 6 14:09:30 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <005101c313ff$b3c61fc0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: FWIW, Not exactly 'classic' but the following doo-hicky might be a useful mass storage device for an A2GS/A2E http://dreher.net/CFforAppleII/ I've got one ordered, however, he's not started shipping quite yet. They're not terribly cheap though (100$) It is a CF/IDE interface, I wonder how difficult it would be to adapt it to talk to a IDE Cdrom drive.. David On Tue, 6 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > Mass stroage controllers for any of the old classics (Atari ST, Amiga 500, > Apple IIgs) are very hard to find and always command a few bucks on ebay. I > just cant see spending $50 or more for a scsi card for a complete system > that was $30 shipped with monitor disk drives etc. Guess I will keep > looking. > > LEM has some nice deals if you view the list every day (stuff gets sold > quick if the price is good). > > The nubus uwscsi cards go quick to people with old A/V capture systems that > need the speed (the reason I want one) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "chris" > To: "Classic Computer" > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:37 PM > Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > > > > >10/100 NuBus? Never seen one > > > > I'm pretty sure Farallon made one. > > > > I've seen people requesting them on the LEM Swap list, but I don't know > > what kind of a price they get. I would imagine at least $20 or so, if for > > no other reason than they aren't all that common (unlike 10Mb Nubus cards > > which can be had for just a few $ each... I think I paid $10 for a box of > > 12 assorted on ebay about a year ago) > > > > >> Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? > > > > > >Sometimes. Kinda rare, though. Best bet is a IIgs that has one > > >inside that nobody knows what it is. > > > > I'm still waiting for one of those as well. eventually I'll find > > one. > > > > -chris > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:11:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention (was Trenton Computer Festival) In-Reply-To: <20030506183714.20928.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506190752.20961.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Comley wrote: > Refresh my memory, does Mendelsson's have a > warehouse-like store in downtown Dayton, crammed full > of retired electronics (and office furniture) ? That's them. They bring a large tent to the Hamvention (though they did *not* show up this year to the March ComputerFest with their tables and tables of cheap books and PlayStation games). -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 6 14:40:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:29 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >Best I've done so far was a ROM 03 IIgs with a 1MB RAM card (1/4 full, but >I have lots of 256Kx1 DRAMs) for about $10. No SCSI. :-( Someone just sold a working fully populated 8 MB ram card for the IIgs on the LEM Swap list... he asked $5... SHIPPED! Naturally I dove on the offer... but I was too late... by about 70 people from what he told me :-) I actually directed him to this list, as he said he had a whole mess of older Apple 2 stuff that was pulled from schools, and he didn't really feel like going thru it so he was planning on dumpstering most of it. He didn't tell me where he was, but I told him he should post a note to this list as I'm sure someone would drive to him and take it all off his hands. -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 6 14:41:36 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <008b01c31406$31a0ffe0$0500fea9@game> I seen that before, $100 is alot more then $50. I want the scsi card because I already have a syquest 44 5.25 removable "harddrive" that would be perfect for that system. SCSI is alot more flexible then having a HD or flash card on a card system. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Holland" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:06 PM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > FWIW, > > Not exactly 'classic' but the following doo-hicky might be > a useful mass storage device for an A2GS/A2E > > http://dreher.net/CFforAppleII/ > > I've got one ordered, however, he's not started shipping quite yet. > > They're not terribly cheap though (100$) > > It is a CF/IDE interface, I wonder how difficult it would be to adapt > it to talk to a IDE Cdrom drive.. > > David > > > On Tue, 6 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > Mass stroage controllers for any of the old classics (Atari ST, Amiga 500, > > Apple IIgs) are very hard to find and always command a few bucks on ebay. I > > just cant see spending $50 or more for a scsi card for a complete system > > that was $30 shipped with monitor disk drives etc. Guess I will keep > > looking. > > > > LEM has some nice deals if you view the list every day (stuff gets sold > > quick if the price is good). > > > > The nubus uwscsi cards go quick to people with old A/V capture systems that > > need the speed (the reason I want one) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "chris" > > To: "Classic Computer" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:37 PM > > Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > > > > > > > >10/100 NuBus? Never seen one > > > > > > I'm pretty sure Farallon made one. > > > > > > I've seen people requesting them on the LEM Swap list, but I don't know > > > what kind of a price they get. I would imagine at least $20 or so, if for > > > no other reason than they aren't all that common (unlike 10Mb Nubus cards > > > which can be had for just a few $ each... I think I paid $10 for a box of > > > 12 assorted on ebay about a year ago) > > > > > > >> Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? > > > > > > > >Sometimes. Kinda rare, though. Best bet is a IIgs that has one > > > >inside that nobody knows what it is. > > > > > > I'm still waiting for one of those as well. eventually I'll find > > > one. > > > > > > -chris > > > From allain at panix.com Tue May 6 14:45:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <007a01c31407$b7bc3f80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Ugh, no, too far. Dayton is probably about a 12 hour drive... The MIT flea is in less than 2 weeks, is close enough in Boston, and is very Mac friendly BTW. I go for the DEC (still strong there) and even odder stuff, like airplane gyros and optical devices. Definitely something for everyone and less than 5% non-tech nailclippers kind of sellers. video, Hp, Tek, C64, Sun, parts, test equipment, radio, ?, all good there. http://web.mit.edu/w1mx/www/swapfest.html John A. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue May 6 14:51:00 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <007a01c31407$b7bc3f80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 6, 03 03:43:06 pm Message-ID: <200305061949.PAA13582@wordstock.com> And thusly John Allain spake: > > > Ugh, no, too far. Dayton is probably about a 12 hour drive... > > The MIT flea is in less than 2 weeks, is close enough in Boston, > and is very Mac friendly BTW. I go for the DEC (still strong > there) and even odder stuff, like airplane gyros and optical > devices. Definitely something for everyone and less than 5% > non-tech nailclippers kind of sellers. > video, Hp, Tek, C64, Sun, parts, test equipment, radio, ?, > all good there. > > http://web.mit.edu/w1mx/www/swapfest.html > The Flea at MIT is very cool to check out! Plus when you print out and bring the flyer from their webpage you get $1 off the admission!! ($5) Always something interesting to check out... Cheers, Bryan From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 6 15:09:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: >The MIT flea is in less than 2 weeks, is close enough in Boston, >and is very Mac friendly BTW. I go for the DEC (still strong >there) and even odder stuff, like airplane gyros and optical >devices. Definitely something for everyone and less than 5% >non-tech nailclippers kind of sellers. >video, Hp, Tek, C64, Sun, parts, test equipment, radio, ?, >all good there. This I might go to. At least if I go to Boston, its only 4 hours each way, and I have other excuses to go that direction (finally stop by Dave W's in CT to swap some stuff with him, and I can visit my cousin who lives in Boston, or a suburb of it... humm... actually I'm not really sure WHERE she is these days... somewhere up that direction) -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 6 15:23:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Qualstar 1260 In-Reply-To: <20030506115516.A19782@kallisti.com> References: <20030506170001.92243.28312.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20030506170001.92243.28312.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030506151242.0ef73bfc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Great. Thanks Allan. Joe At 11:55 AM 5/6/03 -0700, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> I just picked up a Qualstar 1260. Can anyone tell me anything about it? >> What kind of interface/controller does it need? It has an interface cable >> with a male D-subminiture connector with 62 pins in three rows. > >I have a 1260 also; it is a 1600/6250bpi drive. They're not exactly >fast, but are nice and compact. > >It has a Pertec formatted interface. The cable on it was probably for >an Overland Data controller; if you remove the cover plate the cable goes >through you'll see that it terminates at two 50 (I think) pin connectors >in the drive. Those use the standard Pertec pinout. > >allan > >-- >Allan N. Hessenflow allanh@kallisti.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 6 15:50:01 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Sun Items available at Auction Message-ID: <000701c31410$f16339b0$1008dd40@oemcomputer> I will be going to an auction on Wednesday that has 24 SPARCstation 2's; 2 SPARCstation 10's; 9 SPARCstation 20's and 6 IBM 7204-114's. Plus several Sun external drives of different types tape's, CD's, and HD's. If anyone wants any let me know before Wednesday (5/7/03) at 8AM? There are also some IBM external drives for sale. From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue May 6 15:51:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <008b01c31406$31a0ffe0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > I seen that before, $100 is alot more then $50. I want the scsi card because > I already have a syquest 44 5.25 removable "harddrive" that would be perfect > for that system. SCSI is alot more flexible then having a HD or flash card > on a card system. > True, it isn't cheap. However, unfortunately, I've yet to find a SCSI card for a A2 of any sort and I wanted some sort of mass storage. CF does have the advantage of no moving parts. And is easier to find than "small" IDE/SCSI drives. CF will also probably still be here in 5 years when I (finally) get to the A2 on the "Nostalgic list of things to do" :-) David PS: Anyone know where one can still pick up 5 1/4" DSDD floppy disks commercially? I've not been able to find any, albeit I've not looked super hard yet either.. Hmmm, mebbe Mendelsons, not tried there yet. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 6 16:03:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <000e01c31411$c0a2cc40$0500fea9@game> I got 500 new unused 5.25 DSDD floppies on ebay a year ago for $20+ shipping I think Only problem was they were green and without sleeves. There are usually 50 pack bundles sold on there. They come in handy on my c64/c128 (I ahve a metal punch to use both sides) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Holland" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 PM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > On Tue, 6 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > I seen that before, $100 is alot more then $50. I want the scsi card because > > I already have a syquest 44 5.25 removable "harddrive" that would be perfect > > for that system. SCSI is alot more flexible then having a HD or flash card > > on a card system. > > > > True, it isn't cheap. > > However, unfortunately, I've yet to find a SCSI card for a A2 of any sort > and I wanted some sort of mass storage. > > CF does have the advantage of no moving parts. And is easier > to find than "small" IDE/SCSI drives. > > CF will also probably still be here in 5 years when I (finally) get > to the A2 on the "Nostalgic list of things to do" :-) > > David > > PS: Anyone know where one can still pick up 5 1/4" DSDD floppy > disks commercially? I've not been able to find any, albeit I've > not looked super hard yet either.. Hmmm, mebbe Mendelsons, not tried > there yet. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 6 17:00:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Sphere 6800 Message-ID: I got my hands on a Sphere 6800 and would like to get it working again. Does anyone have any service manuals or technical documentation on it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue May 6 17:26:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Northstar File Transfer from PC Message-ID: <200305062224.PAA25602@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Cini, Richard" > >Dwight: > > I have a working N* Horizon system (dual drive, 56k RAM, monitor in >ROM) and would be happy to lend my testing services. > > From time to time, I've wrestled with the same disk image >manipulation issues for the Altair32 emulator, i.e., manipulating the disk >image outside of the emulation environment itself. My conclusion was that >there's no substitute for using the original OS for maniuplating the images. >So, we developed several methods to move program files into and out of the >emulator by using some home-grown and CP/M-native utilities and the file >transfer functions of the terminal program on the PC. > > I really want to do an external "image management" program but >haven't found a clean/easy way without essentially re-implementing portions >of the base OS. Hi Rich I've found that it is usually not all that difficult to do. I've written code to handle DOS files on a non-PC machine. I have a friend in Germany that has written code to manipulate files from a Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 machine ) image file on a PC. This is using PCOS ( Olivetti's OS ). I wrote code to build disk images for the CPM8000 that I got up and running on the M20 as well. I've always felt that such activities, although time consuming, pay off later in the ability to handle new problems. Dwight > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] >Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:23 PM >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Northstar File Transfer from PC > > >Hi Marvin > Maybe this isn't exactly what you are looking for >but I'm currently working on some software to transfer >entire disk images through the serial port of a H89 >to a PC. I have another friend checking out my first >version, now. I hope to do a similar things for the >N*'s as soon as I get one of these machines up and >running ( on my list of things to do ). > I suppose that once the image is on the PC, one can >modify the image to include any new files, one wants >and then transfer it back to the N*. It isn't a nice >direct method but my main intent is to get some way >to send disk images over the net and not specifically >individual files. > I haven't fiddled with the N* at all and don't >know a lot about it. The H89 has a simple monitor that >I use to hand enter a simple bootstrap program. With >this, I bring in the rest of the code to run the disk >drive. Does the N* have a ROM based monitor? > I also have a similar setup for my Poly88 but that is >setup for getting code into the Poly88 and tape from the PC. >I used this to create code to do the various tape >copying functions. I can read code from a cassette >tape, transfer it through the serial to the PC and >later feed it back through the serial to the Poly88 >to write back onto tape. I use a similar bootstrapping >code to get things started, through the Poly's monitor. >Dwight > > >>From: "Marvin Johnston" >> >>What is the procedure for transfering files to and from a PC using N* >>DOS? For text from the N* to the PC, no problem, just print it out to >>the terminal (a DOS machine) and capture it. But what about going the >>other way, wanting to get information back to the N*? Any information >>appreciated! >> >>------------------------------------------- >>ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup >>http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From ssj152 at charter.net Tue May 6 17:33:00 2003 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Digital Group equipment? References: <3EB7F810.8080201@cox.net> Message-ID: <171e01c3141f$2c8f0ce0$0200a8c0@cosmo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Blackburn" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Digital Group equipment? > I collect, restore, and actually use them!! The Digital Group was way ahead of the times in a lot of ways, but poor management and customer service killed the company in the early eighties. Also of interest, The Digital Group began by selling information and hardware to improve the Mark 8 Minicomputer. They sold a number of items such as video cards and cassette tape interfaces, and wrote all the software to support the hardware. It is interesting to note that the software they wrote for the Mark 8 is almost identical in function and appearance to the software that was included with all of the systems sold by Digital Group later on. For more info, see my web pages: > > http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/tdg.htm > http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/dg_restore.htm > http://members.cox.net/oldcomp/dgsoftware.htm > > (You may also be interested in clicking on the link to my Mark 8 page!) > > -Bryan > > Jon Titus wrote: > > >Does anyone follow or collect Digital Group equipment? This company, based Bryan, what a great collection and web site! I remember the Digital Group well; I made a trip to Chicago in the 70's to Bally, the manufacturer of video games (I worked for their Aladdin's Castle arcades as a traveling specialist) to train some of their technicians. While I was there I met a fellow that had a COMPLETE 4 Phi-deck Z80 Digital Group system with the dress skins! I was immensely impressed with the system and ALL THE SOFTWARE! I couldn't believe how nice it was. I think that this was around 1978. I was then running an Apple ][ (original model, s/n 16,000 something) with 2 Disk ][ drives (s/n 600 or so) that I carried around in the top half of my Samsonite suitcase, it being more important for that purpose than to merely tote clothes around . My first computer was completely hand built, but that isn't relevant here... Needless to say, the Apple ][ was somewhat underwhelming after seeing the Digital Group OS and hardware. Stuart Johnson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:33:09 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: TRS-80 / System 80 In-Reply-To: <002901c312e7$fc530370$3d00a8c0@falco> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at May 5, 3 09:23:26 pm Message-ID: > Interestingly enough, it mentions checking the temperatures of the RAM (ICs > Z27 through Z34) as part of the official RAM troubleshooting procedure - hot > RAM -> "REPLACE RAM", apparently. Replacements are to be "4116 type Dynamic The Radio Shack technical manual warns you that a RAM with supply line shorts can get up to soldering-type temperatures, and that you should be careful touching the RAMs to detect a bad one... > To reset the machine, apparently it's necessary to hold down 'Break' and > 'Reset' at the same time. On a TRS-80 with a disk controller, this will cause it to ignore the disk system and run the ROM BASIC. It's the way to start up a disk-based machine (or any M1 with an expansion interface, which contains the disk controller) without a system disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:34:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: MINC-11 In-Reply-To: <008001c31312$4a332230$0400005a@Josephine> from "Cynthia Batchelder" at May 5, 3 10:26:16 am Message-ID: > Do you know where I could find technical documentation for the MINC-11 > or MINC-23? What do you need to know? I have the printset (schematics) for the Minc-11, which includes some, but not all, of the MINC modules. The rest of the boards (some of which are in this printset) are standard Q-bus boards -- the 11/03 or 11/23 processor, MSV11 32Kw RAM, DLV11-J quad serial port, LPV11 line printer interface, IBV11 GPIB interface, BDV11 bootstrap/terminator, and either RXV21+RX02 or RLV11 + RL01 controller + drive. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 6 18:00:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: MINC-11 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: MINC-11" (May 6, 22:49) References: Message-ID: <10305062357.ZM17391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 22:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do you know where I could find technical documentation for the MINC-11 > > or MINC-23? > > What do you need to know? I have the printset (schematics) for the > Minc-11, which includes some, but not all, of the MINC modules. If anyone in the UK wants a MINC-11, I know where there is one, almost certainly "free to a good home", and probably with some docs and software. The catch is that it's in Scotland, and *must* be moved within a week or so (owner is moving and can't take it with him). I'd have it myself, but I have no more room :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at spies.com Tue May 6 18:32:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Sphere 6800 Message-ID: <200305062332.h46NW1FN013189@spies.com> > Does anyone have any service manuals or technical documentation on it? Eric and I retreived a rather complete collection of documentation and software from person who ran the Sphere User's group about a month ago. It was promised to the Computer Museum, but it is in the queue to be scanned and the cassettes duplicated. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 6 20:54:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Qualstar 1260 In-Reply-To: <20030506115516.A19782@kallisti.com> References: <20030506170001.92243.28312.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20030506170001.92243.28312.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030506151242.0fefac10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Great. Thanks Allan. Joe At 11:55 AM 5/6/03 -0700, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> I just picked up a Qualstar 1260. Can anyone tell me anything about it? >> What kind of interface/controller does it need? It has an interface cable >> with a male D-subminiture connector with 62 pins in three rows. > >I have a 1260 also; it is a 1600/6250bpi drive. They're not exactly >fast, but are nice and compact. > >It has a Pertec formatted interface. The cable on it was probably for >an Overland Data controller; if you remove the cover plate the cable goes >through you'll see that it terminates at two 50 (I think) pin connectors >in the drive. Those use the standard Pertec pinout. > >allan > >-- >Allan N. Hessenflow allanh@kallisti.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 6 22:18:00 2003 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 Message-ID: <030001c31447$06370b10$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Following a successful trans-Pacific trade, (for a DRQ3B) I have the following that will (theoretically) upgrade my Vax 6000-430 to a 6000-620. 2 T2054-AA 6000-600 CPUs 1 T2019 3.3V regulator, 25A Can Antonio or one of the other DEC experts confirm that there are no other hardware mods required to the Vax 6000-200/300/400 series cabinets (this particular machine was originally a 6000-310 IIRC) to support the 500 & 600 series cpu boards other than the insertion of the T2019 3.3v regulator board? ie no re-cabling etc? AFAIK this is a plug it in and go field upgrade but would like to confirm it before committing irreplaceable hardware to possible destruction. Can't seem to find much on the web about the process itself. Thanks. Geoff in Oz From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue May 6 22:44:00 2003 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 In-Reply-To: <030001c31447$06370b10$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507134040.025b95d0@127.0.0.1> At 12:46 PM 7/05/2003 +0930, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Following a successful trans-Pacific trade, (for a DRQ3B) I have the >following that will (theoretically) upgrade my Vax 6000-430 to >a 6000-620. > >2 T2054-AA 6000-600 CPUs >1 T2019 3.3V regulator, 25A > >Can Antonio or one of the other DEC experts confirm that there are no >other hardware mods required to the Vax 6000-200/300/400 >series cabinets (this particular machine was originally a 6000-310 IIRC) >to support the 500 & 600 series cpu boards other than the >insertion of the T2019 3.3v regulator board? ie no re-cabling etc? >AFAIK this is a plug it in and go field upgrade but would like to confirm >it before committing irreplaceable hardware to possible >destruction. >Can't seem to find much on the web about the process itself. It's been a while since I worked on 6000 series VAXen (it's about 4 years since I left La Trobe Uni). My immediate recollection is that the upgrade requires new CPUs and new memory as well - although it might be that the memory I had was too small/old to work in the 6000-300 that became a 6000-500. I do recall it was just a matter of pulling the old stuff out and adding the new stuff in. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 6 22:52:01 2003 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507134040.025b95d0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <031001c3144b$d72402b0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 > It's been a while since I worked on 6000 series VAXen (it's about 4 years > since I left La Trobe Uni). My immediate recollection is that the upgrade > requires new CPUs and new memory as well I have some ram that is suitable if the installed stuff isn't I think. > although it might be that the memory I had was too small/old to work in the 6000-300 that became a > 6000-500. I do recall it was just a matter of pulling the old stuff out and > adding the new stuff in. Ok, that was the bit I needed to know. I was fairly sure it was just that, but wanted to be certain I wasn't going to blow anything up. If the RAM can't handle the pace I can solve that. I was just concerned about the CPU's and the regulator.. Thanks Huw. Cheers Geoff From donm at cts.com Tue May 6 23:20:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: hotrod Kaypro acquisition & problem In-Reply-To: <3EB7754F.1020901@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, Jim Battle wrote: > This past weekend I went to the monthly swap meet in Livermore, CA. I > had a late start, the weather wasn't promising, and I was tired, but I > hadn't gone for a while so I went anyway. I'm glad I did. > > I picked up a Kaypro II for $20, although the seller asked for "Oh, $20, > maybe $15" since he seemed like a nice guy. > > It didn't have any floppies or any manuals, but the rest is pretty nice. > > First, the case is in great shape. It was well taken care of. On power > up, the character generation is pretty clean. > > More interestingly, it has had a lot of mods done to it. I haven't > opened it up yet, but some of the changes are evident anyway. > > 1) addition of a fan. this is way too noisy and I must replace it. > Also, it appears to be powered from the DC side of the power supply; I > infer this from the fact that the fan keeps running for 5-10 seconds > after power is removed! Unless it is a late edition Kaypro II (check the nameplate to see if it is a Non Linear Systems or Kaypro product) it is likely that the power supply has been replaced as the early II PSUs were a bit marginal in standard usage and would never hack an added hard drive. > 2) one of the full height 5.25" floppies is replaced with a hard drive. > I haven't confirmed the size, but the seller recalled that it was 10 > MB. The hard drive has been partitioned into A, B, C, and D drives. > The remaining floppy is E. > > 3) there is a RAM disk, which is F. I'm not sure of the size yet. When you pull the cover, note whether there is a daughter board that carries an 8088 and DRAM which indicates the presence of an SWP add on with RAM disk not using the 64k standard memory. > 4) On the rear there is a toggle switch: 2.5 MHz/5.0 MHz. Cool. > > 5) On boot up, I get a notice saying that it has the Advent TurboROM 3.0 > (1985) modification. Does it state the size of the operating system? 60K? 58K? ?? > That is all to the good. > > Now the bad news. The seller tried to "erase the hard drive", but said > he didn't remember enough how to do it. Well, he managed to erase the A > partition, although B, C, and D are still there. As you might expect, A > contained the most interesting stuff. I can't do PIP, nor STAT, nor ED, > nor DDT. The built-in DIR and TYPE work, of course, as I imagine the > other built-ins would. None of these are mirrored in B-D I take it. > On cold boot and warm boot, I have to hit carriage return a dozen times > or so to get past the "Drive A: BDOS bad sector" (or somesuch) spew, but > I do eventually get a prompt. So his attempt to erase the hard disk got > rid of the directory apparently, but not the boot tracks. > > I am hopeful that the information is still there, and all I need to do > is somehow boot off of the remaining floppy and use a sector editor to > unerase the damage done to drive A. However, the fact that it is saying > "bad sector" instead of just saying drive A has "no files" on a DIR > would seem to indicate things aren't so simple. I may need to > completely rebuild drive A. > > I've combed through the various CP/M archives and have found out a bit > about the Advent TurboROM. I believe that if I have a bootable disk, I > can put it into the "E" floppy drive and it will become the "A" drive on > a reboot. > > So that leaves the question: how to get a kaypro II disk image? I would suggest that your immediate need is not a disk image, but the missing utility files - plus a few more - and a readable disk that contains them. If you can resurrect the boot track from the hard disk and place it on a floppy, you will have the correct version and size needed. > I have a PC (P-166) lying around that I added a 5.25" drive to for the > purpose of reading some trs-80 disks. I'm not sure of the drive density > at the moment; that was a while back. What density drive should I use > in my PC? What software it recommended for making a bootable disk? > Short of bothering the tireless Don Maslin, are there any disk images > available online that could help me out? Should I scratch any plans to > recover the CP/M 2.2 image on the A drive and instead just attempt to > reformat and reinstall CP/M (Or ZCPR?) Presuming - always a problem - that your floppy is a 48tpi drive (390k in Kaypro speak) it would be desirable to have a 48tpi (360k) drive on the PC, but not absolutely necessary. I am sending under separate cover a TeleDisk image of a Kaypro II SSDD disk which contains a number of utilities that you should find useful in your salvage effort. Most are the standard CP/M utilities - pip, etc. - but the one that is most likely to be helpful on the HD is DU-V78.COM. It comes with a pretty good explanation of usage. Study it well, as it is a powerful tool and can do both good and terrible things for you. It is a pretty good sector editor. The TeleDisk image can be reproduced on either 48 or 96tpi drives. Desirably, the disk would be bulk erased - degaussed - prior to use if possible. - don From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 7 15:30:01 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 In-Reply-To: <031001c3144b$d72402b0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <000301c314d7$33070c90$cb87fe3e@athlon> > > although it might be that the memory I had was too > small/old to work > > in the 6000-300 that became a 6000-500. I do recall it was just a > > matter of pulling the old stuff out and adding the new stuff in. > > Ok, that was the bit I needed to know. I was fairly sure it > was just that, but wanted to be certain I wasn't going to > blow anything up. If the RAM can't handle the pace I can > solve that. I was just concerned about the CPU's and the regulator.. I've missed the beginning of this thread, but if I got the gist of it right, my recollection (albeit fuzzy now) is that the -500 and -600 need the later memory and won't work with the older memory. To be sure, pick up the relevant manuals, which you can probably find by searching here: http://vt100.net/manx/ Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 7 15:46:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 In-Reply-To: <030001c31447$06370b10$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <000601c314d9$7b8d6a70$cb87fe3e@athlon> > Can Antonio or one of the other DEC experts confirm that > there are no other hardware mods required to the Vax > 6000-200/300/400 series cabinets (this particular machine was > originally a 6000-310 IIRC) to support the 500 & 600 series > cpu boards other than the insertion of the T2019 3.3v > regulator board? ie no re-cabling etc? AFAIK this is a plug > it in and go field upgrade but would like to confirm it > before committing irreplaceable hardware to possible > destruction. Can't seem to find much on the web about the > process itself. The specific manual you want is: EK-650EB-UP-002 VAX 6000 XMI Conversion Manual which is online according to http://vt100.net/manx If that turns out to be wrong (i.e. not online) let me know and I'll dig out my copy and send it along. I can provide pointers to the unclear bits, but you'll definitely want the manual - it will speed things up immensely. There are (at least) two ways of converting from pre-6500 to 6500/6600. One involves the full upgrade that swaps PSU blocks and so on. The other (which seems to be what you have) is to add a T2019 to provide an additional voltage on previously unused XMI connections. This latter route does not (AFAICR) involve replacing the backplane. The manual lists which options don't mind the extra voltage and which probably would prefer to live in a different cabinet - you're safer reading the details in the manual than relying on my memory at this point! I think that you just add the T2019, swap in KA66A and MS65A, remove the modules that won't work in the new config (nothing significant IIRC, probably the older style CPUs) and off you go. There may be a restriction on the number of I/O modules you can use if you have a T2019 and obviously you lose an XMI slot! The KA66 supports large amounts of physical memory, possibly up to 3.5GB. If you choose to do this, something else needs to be changed to work properly (just SW, no HW smokes IIRC). It's probably the XMI-BI adapter that needs to be upgraded to the + version. If you don't do this, the OS refuses to use the extra memory. I'm reasonably sure the KA65 could also do this (although for smaller amounts of memory, probably 1GB). I'm reasonably sure that this was never supported in the field. If you happen to have one, the VAX 9000 was also capable of going beyond 512MB, but again it may never have been supported (in fact, the entire system should probably never have been built :-)). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 7 16:22:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:30 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) Message-ID: <20030507231544.I206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together with a Tektronix 8540 in system 68k CPU emulator. The 8560 is based on the DEC M8186 PDP-11/23 CPU module but that card is the one and only DEC part in the machine. Everything else is from Tektronix. There is a 35 MB 8" disk and a 8" floppy in the 8560 and it runs some flavor of UNIX called TNIX. I am trying to break into it currently, as I have no passwords. I can't get it to single user mode and I have no distribution media nor no stand alone tools. Has someone heared from this machine bevore? Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at spies.com Wed May 7 16:57:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) Message-ID: <200305072157.h47LvVh7013224@spies.com> > Has someone heared from this machine bevore? yes, I have several 8" disks that were created by the fbu program on that system that I need to recover and asked around a few months ago with no replies. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 17:48:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: <20030507231544.I206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 7, 3 11:15:44 pm Message-ID: > Hi. > > I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together > with a Tektronix 8540 in system 68k CPU emulator. The 8560 is based on > the DEC M8186 PDP-11/23 CPU module but that card is the one and only DEC > part in the machine. Everything else is from Tektronix. There is a 35 MB > 8" disk and a 8" floppy in the 8560 and it runs some flavor of UNIX > called TNIX. I am trying to break into it currently, as I have no > passwords. I can't get it to single user mode and I have no distribution > media nor no stand alone tools.=20 > > Has someone heared from this machine bevore? Yes, I have one. The hard disk is a Micropolis 1200 series unit, with the Micropolis controller board on top. The interface to the Q-bus board in the main backplane is a fairly simple 8 bit data bus + control lines. The backplane bus is similar to Q-bus, although not the standard pinouts or form factor (other then the 11/23 CPUI card at one side). > Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? I might have the installation floppies, but don't expect me to find them any time soon! -tony From nick at 4realworld.com Wed May 7 18:03:01 2003 From: nick at 4realworld.com (Nick Garnett) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CCTech folks, Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy system to keep on working while I revamp their whole system. Regards, Nick Garnett From rickb at bensene.com Wed May 7 18:32:00 2003 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: TSX-Plus Password Hacking & Other PDP-11 Issues In-Reply-To: <000301c313f0$4407da70$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <001001c314f0$998877b0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> In response to problems that I'd mention regarding getting the RL11 controller to happily co-exist with the RX11 Ethan Dicks said: > One thing to identify is what else shares its BR level. ISTR most DEC cards were either BR4 or > BR5. Remember that an interrupting device breaks the grant chain for all peripherals to the > rear of the bus. There's a small chance that the offending device is at the same BR level as > the RX211 and in *front* of it. If possible, try putting the RX211 at the front, then test. No > reason to leave it there permenently - it should be a robust enough device to go anywhere in the > Unibus (which is not true of some cards on the Qbus, especially when an RQDX1 is involved, but > that's another story). So, I followed this advice, and greatly so, everything worked fine. However, I later found that the position wasn't really the issue. The problem was that the BR selection header on the RX211 controller really squeezez the tolerance in terms of inter-board spacing. What was happening is that with the RX211 behind the RL11 controller, the BR selection header on the RX211 was apparently shorting some connections on the back of the RL11 controller. So, *that's* what that fully looking piece of semi-transparent orangish-material that I found in the base of the cabinet when cleaning things up...apparently it was some kind of insulator placed on top of the header to prevent just such shorts. Fortunately, the shorts didn't cause any damage. When I swapped the boards' positions, the interference didn't exist anymore, and everything works like a champ. The RL01 drive works flawlessly, and both the RX02 drives also work great. Here's another question for you DEC folks: The system has the main backplane (closest to the front panel), then there's the RK11 backplane, which is connected to the main bus by a bus jumper, and from the last slot (A&B) of the RK11 backplane, is another jumper which conncts to a 9-slot expansion backplane. Question is: Is this correct? Should the RK11 backplane (4 slots in which the RK11 4-board RK11 controller plugs into) be situated BETWEEN the main bus and the expansion bus, or should it be located at the end? Next question, back on the TSX-Plus password hacking part of the thread; On one of the floppies I was given, I found a program called TSAUTH.SAV. This program runs from RT-11, and appears to be a tool to manage the ACCESS.TSX and CREDIT.TSX files. The CREDIT file appears to be a structured text file, which contains PPN's, "user names", and privilege information for each account. The ACCESS file appears to be where the passwords are strored in some encrypted form. The TSAUTH program has just gives the normal "*" prompt when run. I tried all kinds of combinations of characters for commands, and found that it responds to "A", "L", "P", "E", and "K". E exits the program. The other commands result in a "PPN:" prompt. By looking through the CREDIT.TSX file, I could find out PPN's, so I tried entering one of the PPN's listed in the CREDIT file after typing the "K" command (which I assumed means "KILL"), figuring that would wipe out the user's entry. It didn't. Using BINCOM, I backup copies of the CREDIT and ACCESS files with the actual files, and there was no change. If I moved the ACCESS.TSX and CHARGE.TSX files to different names and ran the TSAUTH program, it complained that it couldn't find the ACCESS file, so I know the program is somehow supposed to manipulate this stuff. DUMPing the TSAUTH.SAV file results in some text clues that make it clear that the program is an administrative tool. Messages such as one asking the user if they wish to make a new authorization file, and how many entries to reserve for users should be created. I tinkered with the program for quite a while, and couldn't get it to emit those messages no matter what I did. The "E" command is used to exit the program -- the only command that I could really tell that did anything. Does anyone have any TSX-Plus Version 5 manuals that they could look up this command and let me know how it works? Many thanks to all, Rick From donm at cts.com Wed May 7 18:49:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: > CCTech folks, > > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy > system to keep on working while I revamp their whole > system. > > Regards, > Nick Garnett I have some, Nick. Specifically, what are they looking for and in what quantity? SS or DS? Full high or half high? - don From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 19:08:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy > system to keep on working while I revamp their whole > system. Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives? Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually work as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes. From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Wed May 7 19:16:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? References: Message-ID: <002301c314f6$e219fc50$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> My god legacy? Antiquity maybe. that is cool. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: "Nick Garnett" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? > On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: > > > CCTech folks, > > > > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > > drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy > > system to keep on working while I revamp their whole > > system. > > > > Regards, > > Nick Garnett > > I have some, Nick. Specifically, what are they looking for and in > what quantity? SS or DS? Full high or half high? > > - don From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed May 7 19:20:01 2003 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 References: <000601c314d9$7b8d6a70$cb87fe3e@athlon> Message-ID: <00ba01c314f7$571f42d0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 6:14 AM Subject: RE: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 > The specific manual you want is: > > EK-650EB-UP-002 VAX 6000 XMI Conversion Manual > > which is online according to http://vt100.net/manx Thank you sir. I have the manual. I'll look into the details now. As usual, CC to the rescue. Cheers Geoff in Oz From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed May 7 20:03:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? Message-ID: <200305080101.SAA28517@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > >On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: >> Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy >> drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy >> system to keep on working while I revamp their whole >> system. > >Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives? >Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually work >as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes. > Hi I suspect that you'll need to transfer the files and such to the 5.25" disk. I've tried folding a 8 inch disk into a 5.25" drive with little success. Dwight From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed May 7 20:09:00 2003 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 References: <000601c314d9$7b8d6a70$cb87fe3e@athlon> Message-ID: <00be01c314fe$34e6de60$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 6:14 AM Subject: RE: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 > The specific manual you want is: > > EK-650EB-UP-002 VAX 6000 XMI Conversion Manual > > which is online according to http://vt100.net/manx Further: That manual gives the full upgrade procedure to install an XMI-2 card cage, which includes changing regulators and card cages etc etc. It points to a simpler process in manual EK-650EB-UP-002 Vax 6000: Installing Model 500 Processors. This is the upgrade that uses the T2019. It's also online. There are some limitations. Not more than 12 XMI cards and not more than 4 cpus. Some other cards won't work in this configuration and require the full backplane and psu upgrade. Unfortunately, it's also revealed that there is a bus bar cable that connects the 5V rail to the T2019 and supplies the 3.3v generated by it to the bus. I don't have this. However it also mentions that some 300 & 400 series machines have 3.3v capability and only require the removal of a 3.3v inhibit cable. I will investigate and see whether any of my 6000 chassis are configured this way, if so, I may have a work around as this removes the need to install the T2019 regulator board. There are some compatiblility issues with memory and some other cards. MS62 RAM will not work, it requires MS65 or better. I have a mixed bag of memory modules so I can probably sort something out. There is also mention of a firmware upgrade, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Thanks for your help. Cheers Geoff in Oz From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed May 7 20:15:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? Message-ID: <200305080113.SAA28524@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > >On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: >> Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy >> drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy >> system to keep on working while I revamp their whole >> system. > >Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives? >Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually work >as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes. > Hi One other thing that Fred didn't mention is that some of the older systems use the data separator on the 8 inch drives and not the raw data. I don't recall any 1.2M drives with data separators. Dwight From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed May 7 20:16:01 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c314ff$40c7ae70$947ba8c0@p933> I know that Herb Johnson usually has 8" drives for sale: http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s100.html Good luck! Erik The Vintage Computer Forum www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Garnett Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 4:02 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? CCTech folks, Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy system to keep on working while I revamp their whole system. Regards, Nick Garnett From rdd at rddavis.org Wed May 7 20:37:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: TSX-Plus Password Hacking & Other PDP-11 Issues In-Reply-To: <001001c314f0$998877b0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <000301c313f0$4407da70$030aa8c0@bensene.com> <001001c314f0$998877b0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <20030508020628.GA91379@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Rick Bensene, from writings of Wed, May 07, 2003 at 04:30:06PM -0700: > Next question, back on the TSX-Plus password hacking part of the thread; You mean password cracking, not hacking (refer to TNHD). Anyway, enough picking nits and on with the info. that you need... :-) Not sure if Big Brother's screwey laws make it illegal to share such info. now, but it would be wrong to not share this info., so, here goes... Here's a copy of some info. from Usenet that others kindly provided me with a couple of years ago... ermmm, I mean, almost a decade ago... wow, the message headers even contain bang paths! How time flies. |Article 1121 of vmsnet.pdp-11: |Path: news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11 |From: Roger N Wallace |Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 |Subject: Re: RT/11 Booting, backups, floppy duplication, CPU (was: 11/73 Cabling) |Message-ID: |Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 07:12:59 -0400 (EDT) |Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway |X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List |Lines: 53 >On 23 Aug 1994, davis robert wrote: >> >> Out of curiosity, I entered "TSX" at the prompt and TSX appeared to >> start up! I hit a dead-end however when I couldn't get past the >> password prompt... I couldn't guess any of the right passwords or >> usernames. :-( I'll take a look through the TSX-Plus manual before I >> ask any more questions about this. >> > Fortunately (for this situation), it is very easy to circumvent >TSX+ security _provided_ you have physical access to the system and can >boot RT-11. Incidentally, TSX+ _must_ start from the single-job monitor >under RT-11, so that monitor (or the "baseline" monitor, which is >essentially a "featureless" version of -SJ) is what you have. > > As to getting "in" to TSX+, characteristics of each of the terminal >lines are set in initialization "command" files, which are normally given >names like LINE1.*, LINE2.*, ....., where * is usually either "COM" or "TSX". >The "TSX" extension makes editing the file [when running under TSX+] a >privileged operation. LINE1 is usually assigned to the system console. >In some cases (which would make your task a bit more complicated) the >individual LINEn.* files will contain only characteristics of that particular >line, with more general characteristics set with a call to a "LINES.*" file. > > When you get to the point that you can use the RT-11 text editor "KED", >open the LINE1.* file and look for a line like: > > RUN/LOCK LOGON > >which, depending on TSX+ version [check the TSX+ startup banner], could be >abbreviated to something like: > > r logon > >Simply delete this line. The LOGON program will then not be called when the >line starts up, and no password prompt will appear. If the RUN LOGON command >is not in the LINE1.* file, check any command files _called_ by LINE1.* for >occurrence of the command, and delete it where you find it. > > Typically, the system console under TSX+ is set up to start >automatically as TSX+ boots. It _may_, however, be necessary to hit a >carriage return to initiate the LINE1.* procedure. > > You're in reasonably good shape since you apparently have running >versions of RT-11 and TSX+. However, if the hard drive is a _real_ ST-412 >(or DEC RD-51) with only 10 MB, then it is likely that -- in order to save >space -- not all system software components were installed. > > Roger Wallace |Article 1125 of vmsnet.pdp-11: |Path: news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!festival!unixa.nerc-murchison.ac.uk!unixa.nerc-murchison.ac.uk!not-for-mail |From: e_gs18@ub.nmh.ac.uk (Russ Evans) |Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11 |Subject: Re: RT/11 Booting, backups, floppy duplication, CPU (was: 11/73 Cabling) |Date: 24 Aug 1994 18:41:11 +0100 |Organization: British Geological Survey (RG-N) |Lines: 32 |Message-ID: <33g0nn$aga@unixa.nerc-murchison.ac.uk> |References: <32peitINNp95@umbc8.umbc.edu> <336hepINN461@umbc8.umbc.edu> <33ed8iINNpfa@umbc8.umbc.edu> |NNTP-Posting-Host: mhua.nmh.ac.uk |Xref: news.umbc.edu vmsnet.pdp-11:1125 alt.sys.pdp11:185 >mbg@world.std.com (Megan) writes: >>>start up! I hit a dead-end however when I couldn't get past the >>>password prompt... I couldn't guess any of the right passwords or >>>usernames. :-( I'll take a look through the TSX-Plus manual before I >>>ask any more questions about this. > >>Sorry, I'm a sometimes TSX user, not an expert (Bob Schor?) > >If you can get a version of RT-11 running, you can modify the TSX+ >password/access file (ACCESS.TSX, I think) and add a new user with >full privileges (I hope you never thought that TSX+ was at all secure!). >The TSX+ program to do this is called TSAUTH.SAV. You need to find >this and run it under RT-11. The documentation should be included in >the system manager component of your TSX+ manuals. Writing from >memory, the syntax should be something like: > .RUN TSAUTH > * AUTH SYSTEM/PASSWORD=SECRET/PRIVILEGE=ALL > * EXIT > . > >You may find that the access file has been PROTECTed to provide >another stumbling block to the potential hacker. Issue the command > .UNPROTECT SY:ACCESS.TSX >in order to make it accessible (this won't do any harm, in any event). > >Alternatively, and if I recollect correctly, simply deleting the access >file should have the effect of leaving the system entirely open. It >may also be possible to turn password access off using the TSXMOD >kernel modification utility (but I don't recall how, if at all). On the >whole, I would recommend the course of action described above! > >Russ |Article 1131 of vmsnet.pdp-11: |Path: news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11 |From: Roger N Wallace |Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 |Subject: Re: RT/11 Booting, backups, floppy duplication, CPU (was: 11/73 Cabling) |Message-ID: |Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 18:37:34 -0400 (EDT) |Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway |X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List |Lines: 25 > The system password (default "TSX") can be changed with TSXMOD, or >by the system operator with a "SET ..." command under TSX. Whether an >individual line requires the system password can be set during SYSGEN or >by the operator with a "SET TT n [NO]SYSPASSWORD". > > Running TSAUTH from RT11 to define a new user with known password >will work fine, _provided_ TSAUTH is present on the system disk. Running >TSAUTH is a privileged operation under TSX, but can be done by anyone under >RT-11. For this reason, the manuals recommend not keeping TSAUTH on the >system disk. > > Not running LOGON for a particular line will bypass all user login >security, but will leave the requirement for the system password if it has >been enabled. > > TSX is reasonably secure if user privileges have been properly set >and the only access to the system is through its serial ports. But, unless >_physical_ access to the system is controlled, anybody can boot RT11 and >get to any and all files on the hard drive. MicroVAX / VAXStation systems >are also essentially "wide open" unless physical access to the machine is >controlled. > > Roger Wallace |Article 1137 of vmsnet.pdp-11: |Path: news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!umd5.umd.edu!mojo.eng.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!cambridge-news.cygnus.com!noc.near.net!eisner!youdelman |From: billy@mix.com |Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 |Subject: Re: RT/11 Booting, backups, floppy duplication, CPU (was: 11/73 Cabling) |Message-ID: <1994Aug25.060322.5086@eisner> |Date: 25 Aug 94 06:03:22 -0400 |References: |Organization: DECUServe |Lines: 29 >In article Roger N Wallace > writes: > >> TSX is reasonably secure if user privileges have been properly set >> and the only access to the system is through its serial ports. But, unless >> _physical_ access to the system is controlled, anybody can boot RT11 and >> get to any and all files on the hard drive. MicroVAX / VAXStation systems >> are also essentially "wide open" unless physical access to the machine is >> controlled. > >Speaking as one who's run an anonymously accessable bbs under TSX for >many years, which has been beat upon by some pretty talented people, >yes it can be made quite secure. There are only two things that are >unusual enough to even be worth mentioning here. > >Prior to V6.4 tailgating on modem lines can be a problem, but one can >run a small detached job on earlier versions that watches these lines >and does the same thing (I include it (KRTAIL.MAC) with Kermit). > >Under any version a user can escape control of a command file if the >application (such as a bbs message editor) allows the lead-in character >for TSX's program controlled terminal options to be echoed back to the >terminal - one option will cause the remainder of the command file to >be immediately typed out. After that the program may exited without, >for instance, being logged off (if that's what the command file would >have done). > >Billy Y.. Hopefully this is of some help. Good luck! :-) RDD -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 20:41:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: <200305080101.SAA28517@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > >> Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > >Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives? > >Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually work > >as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes. On Wed, 7 May 2003, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I suspect that you'll need to transfer the files and > such to the 5.25" disk. I've tried folding a 8 inch disk > into a 5.25" drive with little success. > Dwight . . . and if you simply take an 8" disk and trim off the outside edges down to 5.25", then you lose some of the low numbered tracks. Also, some people fail to notice that the hub is a different size! If you trim an 8" to fit in a 5.25" drive (such as because 5.25" diskettes are hard to find), sometimes it will slip instead of turning properly. The easiest way to do it is to install both an 8" drive AND a 5.25" drive. Be sure to label them, so the user will know which disk to put in which drive. From patrick at evocative.com Wed May 7 21:07:01 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Be sure to label them, so the user will know which disk to put in which > drive. Wait a minute... doesn't the color of the LED and the direction of the handle tell you which is which?!? ;-) --Patrick From rhudson at cnonline.net Wed May 7 21:13:00 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <59D235DE-80FA-11D7-A5ED-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 03:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together Is this the device that runs automated test systems, has a 9" touch screen? Oh, wait, I think that was a Fluke product... mebbe not.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 22:40:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Be sure to label them, [8" drive and 1.2M 5.25" drive] > > so the user will know which disk to put in which > > drive. On Wed, 7 May 2003, Patrick Rigney wrote: > Wait a minute... doesn't the color of the LED and the direction of the > handle tell you which is which?!? ;-) --Patrick That's right! And the faceplate of an 8" is often black, whereas some 5.25" 1.2M drives have beige faceplates. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 8 03:35:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, May 08, 2003 at 00:43:06 CEST References: <20030507231544.I206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20030508102317.W206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.08 00:43 Tony Duell wrote: [Tektronix 8560] > Yes, I have one. Is there anything strange on the world that you don't own? ;-) > The backplane bus is similar to Q-bus, although not the standard > pinouts or form factor (other then the 11/23 CPUI card at one side). I noticed this already. When I got that thing from a friend he said that it is PDP-11. I was not sure about the PDP-11 until I opened the box and found the M8186. > > Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? > I might have the installation floppies, but don't expect me to find > them any time soon! Meanwhile I got into the machine. Nice. 58 kB UNIX kernel. Maybe I can make the stand alone tools disk from the running system? I had to reset the machine when it was running, so it needs a fsck but a fsck that repairs is only available as stand alone tool... I have to dig throgh the docs I got with it... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 8 03:38:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: <200305072157.h47LvVh7013224@spies.com>; from aek@spies.com on Wed, May 07, 2003 at 23:57:31 CEST References: <200305072157.h47LvVh7013224@spies.com> Message-ID: <20030508101332.U206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.07 23:57 Al Kossow wrote: > > Has someone heared from this machine bevore? > yes, I have several 8" disks that were created by the fbu program > on that system that I need to recover and asked around a few months > ago with no replies. Well. If I can get more used to this thing I may be able to help you, but I am across the big pond... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 8 03:38:05 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: <59D235DE-80FA-11D7-A5ED-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net>; from rhudson@cnonline.net on Thu, May 08, 2003 at 04:11:16 CEST References: <59D235DE-80FA-11D7-A5ED-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20030508101141.S206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.08 04:11 Ron Hudson wrote: > Is this the device that runs automated test systems, has a 9" touch > screen? No. It has 4 (optional 8) serial lines for terminals (got a ADM 3A with it.[1]) and two serial lines for printers. The 8540 hardware CPU emulater is controlled via serial lines too. The only other connector on the main unit is a connector for a hard disk expansion. This thing seams to be used for software development on embeded controllers. I have a 6802 CPU probe and a 9 channel logic probe also. [1] Isn't the ADM 3A a upper case only terminal? My 3A has an extra board in it with EPROMs, so this may be that lower case option module as my terminal is capable of upper and lower case characters. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 8 07:49:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: <20030507231544.I206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030508084112.0fcf0330@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:15 PM 5/7/03 +0200, you wrote: >Hi. > >I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together >with a Tektronix 8540 in system 68k CPU emulator. The 8560 is based on >the DEC M8186 PDP-11/23 CPU module but that card is the one and only DEC >part in the machine. Just for hat it's worth, a couple of weeks ago I found a GenRad Vibration analyzer that had 11/23 CPU and one or two other DEC cards. It had a LOT of cards in it but most were GenRad cards with only a couple of DEC cards. Everything else is from Tektronix. There is a 35 MB >8" disk and a 8" floppy in the 8560 and it runs some flavor of UNIX >called TNIX. I am trying to break into it currently, as I have no >passwords. I can't get it to single user mode and I have no distribution >media nor no stand alone tools. > >Has someone heared from this machine bevore? Yes, I found one a couple of years ago. I posted a couple of messages about it on th eold CC List. I don't remember the details but you might be able to check the archives. I put in it storage at a friend's place, he already had one or two of them.. One has a 68000 CPU pod and the other has a Z8000 (or something like that) pod. >Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? IIRC one of the units here has a hard drive attached to it. The hard drive unit is a separate piece that's about the same size as the 8560 and had a model number 8650 or something like that. I think there may be some docs down here as well. My friend is a real Tektronix nut and he has a huge collection of Tektronix equipment and docs. They looked interesting but too specialized to do anything with. Joe >-- > > >tsch??, > Jochen > >Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 8 07:51:02 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: <59D235DE-80FA-11D7-A5ED-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030508084621.0fafbeee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:11 PM 5/7/03 -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: >On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 03:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Hi. >>> >>> I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together > > > >Is this the device that runs automated test systems, has a 9" touch >screen? > >Oh, wait, I think that was a Fluke product... mebbe not.... That sounds like a Fluke 1722. 9" Touch screen, two 5 1/4" floppy drives, runs BASIC and used as a HP-IB controller. Joe From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 8 10:09:00 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Altair version differences Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E512785B@MAIL10> Hi: Someone asked me what the difference between the 8800 and 8800a models. I know that some significant changes but I couldn't enumerate them. Can someone help here? Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. First Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu May 8 10:35:01 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Altair version differences Message-ID: The only significant differences, aside from the logo, were a somewhat beefier power supply in the 8800a and a standard 18 slot motherboard. The 8800 had 4 slot motherboards that were chained together. The 8800a had the 18 slot board with options for how many connectors and card guides you could buy. Earlier 8800a models had the short round switches shared with the 8800, later versions seem to have had the flat 8800b switches. Typically the 8800a had later rev boards, but some 8800s did too. Erik www.vintage-computer.com > Hi: > > Someone asked me what the difference between the 8800 and 8800a > models. I know that some significant changes but I couldn't enumerate them. > > Can someone help here? Thanks. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > First Vice President > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > -- From patrick at evocative.com Thu May 8 12:25:00 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller Message-ID: Does anyone have a datasheet for the (very discontinued) CRT5027 controller (SMSC) that they would be willing to scan/send to me? Many thanks! Patrick From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 13:10:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030508180910.96686.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: > > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > > drives? > Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives? > Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually > work as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes. Serious question (not meant to merely contradict Fred), what would it take to do that for an RX01 or RX02? The drive mechanism itself in a DEC 8" drive has no electronics - it's a motor, a head loading relay (the drive motors spin whenever the unit is powered on, unlike modern equipment), a couple of sensors and a head cable. All of the "work" is done on the board above the drives. Even getting past electrical issues, one trick would be how to low-level format the disks. Among other reasons for doing it is that I have an RX01 that came from a client with a siezed rotation motor on one drive and a siezed head positioner motor (with attendant incinerated head motor driver transistors) on the other drive. Yes, I can repair the transistors and move one good motor to the other mechanism, but it means that I have 1/2 of a full RX01. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 13:30:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Unibus card interference and RK11 placement (was RE: TSX-Plus Password Hacking & Other PDP-11 Issues) In-Reply-To: <001001c314f0$998877b0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <20030508182844.24069.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Bensene wrote: > In response to problems that I'd mention regarding getting the RL11 > controller to happily co-exist with the RX11 Ethan Dicks said: > > > If possible, try putting the RX211 at the front, then test. > > So, I followed this advice, and greatly so, everything worked fine. > However, I later found that the position wasn't really the issue. > The problem was that the BR selection header on the RX211 controller > really squeezez the tolerance in terms of inter-board spacing. Cards that use the circuit-board-based jumper plugs frequently do. > What was happening is that with the RX211 behind the RL11 controller, > the BR selection header on the RX211 was apparently shorting some > connections on the back of the RL11 controller. So, *that's* what that > fully looking piece of semi-transparent orangish-material that I found > in the base of the cabinet when cleaning things up...apparently > it was some kind of insulator placed on top of the header to prevent > just such shorts. Indeed it is. I must confess that the possibility hadn't occurred to me (novice vs. expert expectations and what not). Yes. There's supposed to be an insulator on the top of the BR selection PCB. The adhesive does frequently dry out and fall off. Very late model Unibus boards have a BR selector that looks like a DIP resistor (yellow body, no exposed conductors). In many cases, though, newer designs just didn't have a selector. The BR level was fixed. > Fortunately, the shorts didn't cause any damage. Frequently the case with DEC stuff... short that cause damage tend to show it right away (with magic smoke heralding the event!) > When I swapped the boards' positions, the interference didn't exist > anymore, and everything works like a champ. Given the boards in question, an admirable solution. It can be a problem when you are trying to load out a DD11-DK and want to use the SPC slot next to the terminator - I have tended to put things like LP11s there. > The RL01 drive works flawlessly, and both the RX02 drives also work > great. Congrats. > > Here's another question for you DEC folks: > > The system has the main backplane... then there's the RK11 backplane... > (then) a 9-slot expansion backplane. > > Question is: Is this correct? Should the RK11 backplane... be situated > BETWEEN the main bus and the expansion bus, or should it be located at > the end? It kinda depends on what else is in there. There are some peripherals that want to be very close to the CPU because they can't buffer operations and would starve if some other device were in front of them. The RL11 should have a "silo" (the RL8A does, I'm pretty sure) that allows it to be somewhat patient about initiating transfers. I would expect the RK11 to be less sophisticated, and more sensitive to timing issues. Ethernet cards and streaming tape controllers are other classes of devices that tend to want to be near the front. Terminal cards and line printer controllers tend to be more tolerant, owing to the relative slowness of the I/O (compared to disk and network). So... if it's there right now, I'd probably leave it, unless you run across a comment in a DEC handbook that suggests that it needs to be somewhere else. Unless you are getting data errors with peripherals behind it, it's probably not hurting anything. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 8 15:35:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: <20030508180910.96686.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com>; from erd_6502@yahoo.com on Thu, May 08, 2003 at 20:09:10 CEST References: <20030508180910.96686.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030508210056.Y206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.08 20:09 Ethan Dicks wrote: > Even getting past electrical issues, one trick would be how to > low-level format the disks. There are RX01/RX02 compatible controllers with standard Shugart SA800 interface from third party vendors. I have one called MXV02. This controller is able to format blank media. I had no 8" drive when I wrote the NetBSD RX02 driver, so I connected a 5.25" drive with a self made adapter cable, issued on the ">>>" prompt of my MicroVAX 4k200: d/p/w 20001E78 9 d/p/w 20001E7A 92 (single density) d/p/w 20001E78 109 d/p/w 20001E7A 92 (RX02 with ouble density) and the controller started to format the disk. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 8 15:36:50 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Altair version differences In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E512785B@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030508163503.3ad72bb8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> One difference was the use of flat vs round toggle switch handles. The round handles cut into your fingers and made them SORE after toggling in long programs. My first Altair was a 8800 but had the flat handles as used on the A model. Steve Gabley (sp?) was tracking Altair serial numbers and differences. He said that my Altair was the highest known SN for an 8800 and one of very few 8800s with the flat handles. You should check with him, I'm sure that he could tell you a lot more about the differences. I think one of the other differences was a beefier PS in the A but I don't remember for sure. Joe At 11:07 AM 5/8/03 -0400, you wrote: >Hi: > > Someone asked me what the difference between the 8800 and 8800a >models. I know that some significant changes but I couldn't enumerate them. > > Can someone help here? Thanks. > >Rich > >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >First Vice President >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 8 15:41:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030508163921.3aef4f8e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'd like a copy too. I just found three of the 5027s and put them away in my parts drawers. Joe At 10:23 AM 5/8/03 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have a datasheet for the (very discontinued) CRT5027 controller >(SMSC) that they would be willing to scan/send to me? > >Many thanks! >Patrick From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 8 16:15:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Working 8" Floppy drives???" (May 8, 11:09) References: <20030508180910.96686.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10305082206.ZM19041@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 8, 11:09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: > > > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > > > drives? > > Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives? > > Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually > > work as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes. > > Serious question (not meant to merely contradict Fred), what would it > take to do that for an RX01 or RX02? The drive mechanism itself in > a DEC 8" drive has no electronics - it's a motor, a head loading relay > (the drive motors spin whenever the unit is powered on, unlike modern > equipment), a couple of sensors and a head cable. All of the "work" is > done on the board above the drives. There might be issues around matching the head's impedances etc to the preamps and drivers on the RX01/2 electronics, and possibly even around the step angle of the positioner, but nothing inssurmountable, I suspect. > Even getting past electrical issues, one trick would be how to low-level > format the disks. Not too hard. An RX01 floppy is a standard format; you could do it on any CP/M machine that exepcted 8" drives but actually had a suitable 5.25" drive, or on a PC with a suitable FDC and suitable version of DOS (or Linux, probably), or indeed on many other systems. Once formatted to single density (RX01) most DEC system can then "reformat" the disk as RX02 (modified double density). > Among other reasons for doing it is that I have an RX01 that came from > a client with a siezed rotation motor on one drive and a siezed head > positioner motor (with attendant incinerated head motor driver > transistors) on the other drive. Yes, I can repair the transistors and > move one good motor to the other mechanism, but it means that I have 1/2 > of a full RX01. I had a drive motor seize on my RX02. It wasn't all that hard to free the spindle, clean the bearings, and re-lubricate them. It's running fine now. It's certainly worth a try. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu May 8 16:57:00 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Altair version differences Message-ID: > One difference was the use of flat vs round toggle switch handles. The > round handles cut into your fingers and made them SORE after toggling in > long programs. My first Altair was a 8800 but had the flat handles as used > on the A model. Steve Gabley (sp?) was tracking Altair serial numbers and > differences. He said that my Altair was the highest known SN for an 8800 > and one of very few 8800s with the flat handles. You should check with him, > I'm sure that he could tell you a lot more about the differences. At least some 8800a systems had the round switches. . . like mine. Erik S. Klein The Vintage Computer Forum www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum From donm at cts.com Thu May 8 17:32:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030508163921.3aef4f8e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: The TMS9927 data sheet which I have sent to Joe and Patrick states that the CRT5027 is an SMC second source of this chip. It came from a google search for TMS9927 and is on www.spies.*mumble* - don From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 8 17:50:01 2003 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Unibus card interference and RK11 placement (was RE: TSX-Plus Password Hacking & Other PDP-11 Issues) In-Reply-To: <20030508182844.24069.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c315b3$fc76cfc0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> I wrote: > > Here's another question for you DEC folks: > > > > The system has the main backplane... then there's the RK11 > > backplane... > > (then) a 9-slot expansion backplane. > > > > Question is: Is this correct? Should the RK11 backplane... be > > situated BETWEEN the main bus and the expansion bus, or > should it be > > located at the end? > To which Ethan D. replied: > It kinda depends on what else is in there. There are some > peripherals that want to be very close to the CPU because > they can't buffer > operations and would starve if some other device were in > front of them. The RL11 should have a "silo" (the RL8A does, > I'm pretty sure) that allows it to be somewhat patient about > initiating transfers. I would expect the RK11 to be less > sophisticated, and more sensitive to timing issues. Ethernet > cards and streaming tape controllers are other classes of > devices that tend to want to be near the front. Terminal > cards and line printer controllers tend to be more tolerant, > owing to the relative slowness of the I/O (compared to disk > and network). > > So... if it's there right now, I'd probably leave it, unless you run > across a comment in a DEC handbook that suggests that it > needs to be somewhere else. Unless you are getting data > errors with peripherals behind it, it's probably not hurting anything. > Well, I went ahead and populated the RK11 slots with the RK11 backplane in the 'middle' position between the main bus and the DD11-DK expansion backplane. I put M9202 Unibus jumpers connecting the main backplane to the RK11 backplane, and another connecting the RK11 backplane to the DD11-DK expansion backplane. I carefully checked to make sure NPG & the four BG signals were getting across the whole bus. I wire-wrapped jumpers on the DD11-DK expansion backplane to provide continuity for the four BG signals across the empty slots in the DD11-DK, and dougble checked everything. I powered up, no smoke or anything, but the machine wouldn't boot off of the RL01. It would halt at 000002, with no sign of activity on the RL01. So, I figured that I'd done something wrong. I swapped the position of the RK11 backplane to the end of the bus, and put the DD11-DK in the middle. I again double-checked my NPG and BG wiring, and all seemed OK. I moved the RL11 to the first slot of the DD11-DK backplane, and put a grant continuity card in the D section of the slot in the main bus that was vacated by the RL11 (and while I was working on the bus, put the NPG jumper on that slot). This time when I powered up, everything worked. I can now talk to the RL01, an RK05, and the RX02 drives. The mystery is why it didn't work before and did with things swapped around? Oh well, sometimes mysteries are better left unsolved. I'm just happy that things are working...and I've got lots of slots free to populate with other things that I may scare up over time. Thanks to Ethan for his great advice. I could probably put the RK11 backplane back in the 'middle', but things are working as they are, and I've done a lot of copying back and forth between the RL01 and the RK05, and there doesn't seem to be any kind of problems with them getting in the way of each other in terms of bus timing. Now to try to get the DZ11 in there and working. Rick Bensene From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 17:51:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: from "Nick Garnett" at May 7, 3 04:01:32 pm Message-ID: > CCTech folks, > > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy > drives? I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy Silly answer : Yes, I can see over a dozen of them without leaving this chair. Of course they're all in working computers systems... > system to keep on working while I revamp their whole > system. Is it too late to point out that 8" drives can nearly always be _repaired_... I don't think I've ever had to replace a head in one (unlike 3.5" drives...). Most of the time a good clean and lubrication job helps a lot. Occasionally there are electronic problems, but the components are normally standard parts... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 17:52:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? In-Reply-To: <20030508180910.96686.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 8, 3 11:09:10 am Message-ID: > Among other reasons for doing it is that I have an RX01 that came from > a client with a siezed rotation motor on one drive and a siezed head > positioner motor (with attendant incinerated head motor driver I am suprised about that. A stepper motor draws much the same current no matter whether it actually rotates or not, so the transistors shouldn't have been damaged... IIRC, it's possible to remove the bearings from the stepper motor in the RX01 (circlips on the end), although you probably have to remove the motor from the drive, which means you need an alignment disk to put it back again. If the windings are still good, you can replace the bearings if necessary. There were several spindle motors used. Some of them come apart easily (and can be cleaned, etc), the latest one, commonly used in RX02s, is almost impossible to take apart. Often, though, removing the plastic covers over the bearings and putting some machine oil (not Wanton Destruction 40, OK!) on the bearings will get it running again. If not, the spindle motor is fairly easy to substitute. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 8 18:41:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: PerSci drive manual wanted Message-ID: <10305090038.ZM19153@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> My newly-acquired Cromemco System 3 came with lots of disks, spare boards, manuals, licences, and a terminal, but only one dual PerSci S299 floppy drive, which needs some attention (it seeks but returns read errors). Anyone got a manual I can download, borrow or trade? I have two sets of manuals (2 of each of the "Product Specification" and "Logic and Schematic Diagram") for the 270/272/277 drives, several spare ADM-5 manuals, and some spare Cromemco FDC manuals. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at spies.com Thu May 8 18:43:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) Message-ID: <200305082342.h48Nga7e001463@spies.com> >Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? IIRC one of the units here has a hard drive attached to it. The hard drive unit is a separate piece that's about the same size as the 8560 and had a model number 8650 or something like that. I think there may be some docs down here as well. My friend is a real Tektronix nut and he has a huge collection of Tektronix equipment and docs. They looked interesting but too specialized to do anything with. Joe ======= Could you ask if he has the maint manual for the 8650 or 4051? I've not been able to turn these up anywhere. From aek at spies.com Thu May 8 18:46:01 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: PerSci drive manual wanted Message-ID: <200305082346.h48NkBMV001916@spies.com> Would it be possible to get one of these sets on loan to add to the archive at www.spies.com/aek/pdf ? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 8 19:55:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: PerSci drive manual wanted In-Reply-To: Al Kossow "Re: PerSci drive manual wanted" (May 8, 16:46) References: <200305082346.h48NkBMV001916@spies.com> Message-ID: <10305090052.ZM19199@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Al. On May 8, 16:46, Al Kossow wrote: > Would it be possible to get one of these sets on > loan to add to the archive at www.spies.com/aek/pdf ? In principle, yes, of course. I'm in the UK, so postage might be an issue, but they're not very heavy so I'll check that out at the weekend. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 8 20:14:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX) In-Reply-To: <200305082342.h48Nga7e001463@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030508201406.3adf7dec@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:42 PM 5/8/03 -0700, you wrote: >>Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? > > IIRC one of the units here has a hard drive attached to it. The hard >drive unit is a separate piece that's about the same size as the 8560 and >had a model number 8650 or something like that. I think there may be some >docs down here as well. My friend is a real Tektronix nut and he has a huge >collection of Tektronix equipment and docs. They looked interesting but too >specialized to do anything with. > > Joe > > >======= > >Could you ask if he has the maint manual for the 8650 or 4051? >I've not been able to turn these up anywhere. Mike H has the service manual for the 4051 along with ALL the other manuals for it including some internal use manuals for some prototype ROMs (HP-IB bus analyzer, some kind of imaging sensor and some other stuff that I don't remember). I gave them to him along with my 4051. Another real INTERESTING item that he has is a programmer's front panel that plugs into the 4051. They talk about it in the service manual. You might want to try and borrow it from him and reverse engineering it. I don't think it was very complicated. I'll look for manuals for the 8650 and related items when I get over to my friend's place but it might be a couple of weeks. Mike also has some manuals for the Tektronix 8002 (I think that was the right number). From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 9 01:08:00 2003 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:31 2005 Subject: hotrod Kaypro acquisition & problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EBB4589.2030007@pacbell.net> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Jim Battle wrote: > > >>This past weekend ... >>I picked up a Kaypro II... >>More interestingly, it has had a lot of mods done to it. I haven't >>opened it up yet, but some of the changes are evident anyway. I've opened it up and found out a few things. Written in pencil on top of the drive bay structure are these words: H/D Rodine RO 252F TYPE2 The maker of the TurboROM is Advent, of course, but the controller for the stack of two daughter cards that plug into the CPU (2.5 MHz/5.0 MHz switchable) and the disk controller daughter card that cables off to the hard disk are from Advent too. The character generator ROM is an EPROM with the gummy label "CB32", whatever that is worth. >>1) addition of a fan. this is way too noisy and I must replace it. >>Also, it appears to be powered from the DC side of the power supply; I >>infer this from the fact that the fan keeps running for 5-10 seconds >>after power is removed! Actually, it is a 120V AC fan. It must just have enough momentum to spin for 5+ seconds after the power is off (making quite a lot of noise the whole time). > Unless it is a late edition Kaypro II (check the nameplate to see > if it is a Non Linear Systems or Kaypro product) it is likely that > the power supply has been replaced as the early II PSUs were a bit > marginal in standard usage and would never hack an added hard > drive. It is a NLS machine, I believe. >>2) one of the full height 5.25" floppies is replaced with a hard drive. >>I haven't confirmed the size, but the seller recalled that it was 10 >>MB. The hard drive has been partitioned into A, B, C, and D drives. >>The remaining floppy is E. I didn't want to disassemble the whole thing right now (the innards are packed tight!), so I couldn't tell what type drive it had. Fortunately, the seller kept the other floppy drive which was removed to make room for the hard disk. It is a Tandon TM100-1A drive. This, I believe, is the orginal Kaypro II drive, which is single sided, double density (180 KB). >>3) there is a RAM disk, which is F. I'm not sure of the size yet. > > > When you pull the cover, note whether there is a daughter board > that carries an 8088 and DRAM which indicates the presence of an > SWP add on with RAM disk not using the 64k standard memory. It isn't some software trick to carve out a tiny RAM disk from the main 64KB. It appears to be a pair of sandwiched cards; one is half populated with DRAMs, the other is the control logic that makes it appear as a disk. To get a look at it I'd have to dismantle a number of items, so I haven't done it yet. It is mounted parallel to the sides of the box, between the CRT and the disk bay, and below the main logic board. >>5) On boot up, I get a notice saying that it has the Advent TurboROM 3.0 >>(1985) modification. > > Does it state the size of the operating system? 60K? 58K? ?? 62KB CP/M. >>That is all to the good. >> >>Now the bad news. The seller tried to "erase the hard drive", but said >>he didn't remember enough how to do it. Well, he managed to erase the A >>partition, although B, C, and D are still there. As you might expect, A >>contained the most interesting stuff. I can't do PIP, nor STAT, nor ED, >>nor DDT. The built-in DIR and TYPE work, of course, as I imagine the >>other built-ins would. > > > None of these are mirrored in B-D I take it. Nope. It looks like only user0 has anything on any drive. A0 has nothing left. B0 has a single application, "PHONE.COM". C0 is empty. D0 has a a few apps, mostly pie charting software, and BRIEF.COM. ... >>So that leaves the question: how to get a kaypro II disk image? > > I would suggest that your immediate need is not a disk image, but > the missing utility files - plus a few more - and a readable disk > that contains them. If you can resurrect the boot track from the > hard disk and place it on a floppy, you will have the correct > version and size needed. You've sent me the teledisk image. Thanks! Now that I know the floppy drive type in the kaypro, I'll set up a PC with the same so I can create the disk. ... > Presuming - always a problem - that your floppy is a 48tpi drive > (390k in Kaypro speak) it would be desirable to have a 48tpi > (360k) drive on the PC, but not absolutely necessary. I am > sending under separate cover a TeleDisk image of a Kaypro II SSDD > disk which contains a number of utilities that you should find useful > in your salvage effort. Most are the standard CP/M utilities - pip, > etc. - but the one that is most likely to be helpful on the HD is > DU-V78.COM. It comes with a pretty good explanation of usage. Study > it well, as it is a powerful tool and can do both good and terrible > things for you. It is a pretty good sector editor. Great! Thanks Don. From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri May 9 02:09:00 2003 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: A Vectrex Case goes for over $162 In-Reply-To: <014101c3137e$9839aeb0$8d0bdd40@oemcomputer> from "Keys" at May 05, 2003 10:20:33 PM Message-ID: <200305090707.h4977Rt9018689@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Just saw this, and thought I'd respond. >From: "Bryan Pope" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:59 PM >Subject: Re: A Vectrex Case goes for over $162 > > >> And thusly Keys spake: >> > >> > This just for a empty case???? The machines itself goes for $5 to $25 at >the >> > thrifts here. Yes, that much for the case (there's also a dust cover as well that goes for quite a pretty penny as well). It's not uncommon for Vectrex peripherals/etc. to go for far more than the console itself. That's because they saw much less distribution then the console (which had a 2 year lifespan in the market). The 3D goggles for instance, go upwards around $400. The carrying case is similar enough to the old Macintosh carrying cases, so if you have or can get one of those it works well also (I can verify with my own that the fit is near perfect). I have a mint pair of 3D goggles, and the interesting thing is they made the vector graphics in to color. There's a spinning disc in the goggle which is actually a spinning color wheel with colors on it specific to the game. The game itself with synch drawing various lines on the screen to the color of the wheel - instant color. The 3D was a stereoscopic effect as well, which was also synched to the wheel. Multiple lines drawn and left to dissapear in synch. These were the first 3D goggles for any game console, and they did it pretty cost effective. There was a color version of the Vectrex itself in the works, and they were doing it pretty uniquely and cost effective as well. Instead of having multiple colored vector beams like some of the arcade vector games did, they used a multilayered phosphor screen of a red and a green layer. The layers were accessed by adjusting the voltage of the electron gun, and a third color could be generated by setting the voltage in the "in between range" of the two layers. You can read a bit more about it here: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmorg/vectrex/VecColor.htm That sounds about right for a loose Vectrex in the thrifts by the way. On ebay you probably get in the $30-$40 range, more if there's games included such as a loose Vectrex with 2 games that recently went for around $50. Of course if the games include the original overlays (for those not familiar, the Vectrex games used overlays for each game that went over the screen and added playfield graphics or game directions - just like many arcade games of the time did), they're worth more as well. >> >> Do you have any!?!?!?!?! I would love one to play with!! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Bryan > When you do get one, don't forget - there are still plenty of new Vectrex games/cartridges being produced. Probably the most prevalent author is Chris Tumber (http://www.capitalssoftware.com/index2.htm). He also sells his new games through ebay as well. Marty ClassicGaming.Com Atari Gaming Headquarters www.atarihq.com Museum of Home Video Gaming www.classicgaming.com/gamingmuseum From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri May 9 02:23:01 2003 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C08988@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> from "Hills, Paul" at May 06, 2003 04:20:28 PM Message-ID: <200305090722.h497MFas014891@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> "Hills, Paul" says: > >That's a lot - it's not really a vintage machine, nor a particularly rare >one. For Europe perhaps, but for the States you'd be wrong. That's actually a low price, the US versions typically go for over $400. Why? Because they were indeed rare over here. Later Atari Corp. computers saw very little distribution over here, and much of the production was limited to overseas. Which is why you can find plenty of Falcon's and TT's in Europe and for auction on European Ebay sites. But those actually happen to be the two *hardest* to find micro's here in the the US (which is what the auction in question was for - a US version). Probably the most common Atari Corp. computers you get over here are the 520ST and 1040ST, with the the STE and Mega's coming after that, and the TT and Falcon the least common. >I still use mine as a MC56000 Digital Signal Processing (DSP) testbed. >At the time, the ?500 I paid for it was a quarter of what I would have had >to pay to get a DSP experimentation card for a PC, and since I didn't have a >PC at the time it was a bargain. > >In addition to that, I wrote a series of articles about DSP for the ST >Format magazine in the UK, for which they paid me ?500, recompensing the >computer's cost! Ha! > >paul > That's cool, congrats. :) The Atari Corp. computers, and the Amiga's had a much larger user base and longer shelf life in Europe than in the US. By the time the Falcon was being released for instance, IBM/Wintel (3.1 at that time) and Mac's were considered "the market", the other companies were considered way way back there somewhere and not for serious use anymore. Which is why companies like Amiga tried to find niche markets for their technology (such as latching on to video effects with Videotoaster stuff, or trying to get in to the console market with the CD32 - which they originally intended with the first Amiga). Atari itself decided to get out of the business within a year of releasing the Falcon and just concentrate on consoles (it's Jaguar). Marty ClassicGaming.Com Atari Gaming Headquarters www.atarihq.com Museum of Home Video Gaming www.classicgaming.com/gamingmuseum From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 9 04:24:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <006701c313eb$882e8be0$0500fea9@game> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030509020734.030af090@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 12:21 PM 5/6/03 -0400, TeoZ wrote: >How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus scsi >cards at these shows? >I need 1 of each to max out my quadra 840av. > >Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? I have a nice >syquest 44 drive and 10 carts I want to hook up to my IIgs. > >TeoZ 10/100 nubus cards, once scarce, seemed to have pretty much disappeared. I've been doing a search on ebay without any luck for a couple weeks. NOBODY really needs one anyway, nubus and 68k macs just don't speed up more than about double a standard 10bt. I figure my best chance of finding one is hunting in a pile of scrap higher end nubus macs like 8100 servers etc. SCSI cards are a LOT easier to find, but most sellers seem attached to about $25 pricing. Same for the IIgs SCSI cards. I have a few with no interest in selling them below top price, or really selling them at all even though I have a Focus card with IDE drive. Only the latter so called Fast SCSI card supports removable media, so don't waste your money on the early cards. From alanp at snowmoose.com Fri May 9 06:29:01 2003 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Who wanted my RA81s? Message-ID: <1052479632.3ebb9090f0323@webmail.snowmoose.com> Last fall someone offered to take some RA81s off of my hands. To avoid the hassle of trying to ship them, he was supposed to pick them up from my house in the spring, when he would be driving through Seattle. Well, it is spring and I haven't heard from you. If you are the person who wanted the RA81s, let me know if you still want them. Thanks. alan From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Fri May 9 08:19:01 2003 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: NASA Auction - GSFC References: Message-ID: <3EBBAA18.42E36F53@verizon.net> I work there! I have been to many an auction and fixed price sale. The former is big lots by the pallet, whereas the latter is sold by the working and tested unit. I used to attend every sale/auction and did lots of reselling after fixing up stuff. But then it became more trouble than it was worth. And gone are the days of finding anything that would be considered classic (S-100 prototypes, Commodore PETs, etc.). My best find was probably getting a keyboard for a PC (you get to pick KBs out of a huge bin for each PC that you buy at auction). The KB I picked turned out to be a working Atari 520ST complete with NASA sticker. ;) Also worthy of note is that the catalog listings can be misleading. You are better off actually inspecting the lots as the catalog listings tends to be somewhat misleading, incomplete or flat out wrong. Wednesdays used to be the inspection day for auctions but with tighter security after 9-11 all is done the same day. Eric "Feldman, Robert" wrote: > > Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt MD: http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/catalog.cgi?salenumber=80322620030009. > > Lots of PC's, Macs, monitors,printers, and office equipment. Fair amount of HP, Tektronic test equipment, various tape transports and hard drives. Some Sun, SGI, DEC, Next. Two Concurrent 3280mps. > > Unfortunately, divided into big lots. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Fri May 9 12:23:00 2003 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 Message-ID: Some sad news... http://www.businessweek.com/technology/cnet/stories/1000732.htm and http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9415 Quote: "Morrow, who was 69, was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club, many of the members of which became instrumental in pushing the concept of the personal computer. He formed a firm called Microstuf and was responsible for the design of the S100 bus." ------------------- Thomas Dzubin Calgary, Saskatoon, or Vancouver CANADA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 9 12:45:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > Some sad news... > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/cnet/stories/1000732.htm > and > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9415 > Quote: > "Morrow, who was 69, was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club, many > of the members of which became instrumental in pushing the concept > of the personal computer. "pushing"?!? How about "creating". > He formed a firm called Microstuf Howzbout "Thinker Toys", which later became "Morrow Designs" (a little better known than "Microstuf" > and was responsible for the design > of the S100 bus." SEVERAL people and companies involved. At the Second West Coast Computer Faire, he and Howard Fullmer, his chief engineer (also dead) presented a paper towards standardizing the bus. Does ANYBODY have a copy of "Quotations from Chairman Morrow"? even a xerox? text file? From nick at 4realworld.com Fri May 9 12:56:00 2003 From: nick at 4realworld.com (Nick Garnett) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (from originator) In-Reply-To: <20030509170001.18345.3782.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you for your replies! From today's digest, they are: ?. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Fred Cisin, from an earlier digest) 2. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Ethan Dicks) 4. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Jochen Kunz) 7. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Peter Turnbull) 11. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) 12. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) Including all of these messages in my reply would be a misuse of bandwidth. Please see the original text of the replies. ? Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Fred Cisin) from yesterday's digest? Fred asks if we have considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives. Hmmmm. I didn't know there were such drives. I know of DSDD 360K 5.25 drives and 1.44M 3.5 drives, even 720K 5.25 drives, but not 1.2M 5.25 drives. On the general subject of using a substitute drive. I have actually been considering if this could be done. I have not suggested doing that because I need to find out the feasibility. I would hope we could at least get into the 1990s with a 1.44M 3.5 in floppy drive. 2. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Ethan Dicks) 4. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Jochen Kunz) 7. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Peter Turnbull) 12. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) These replies will probably be helpful to someone with a hardware background (which I'm not). They point out the complexities of substituting one type of drive for another. This level of complexity is about what I expected. 11. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) Your answer is not silly at all. I didn't know whether such drives would be very rare or plentiful in the "vintage" market. I see now that there are "plenty" of them. The obvious questions, once I know what drives are compatible, are: Are they actually for aale? How much will each cost? What condition are they in? I don't think my client is prepared to pay for "priceless antiques". He considers these to simply be old hardware that he needs to buy. The client has been repairing the drives for years. They are in heavy constant use. I get the impression that they are simply getting too fragile to repair. The client seems to have the impression that 8" floppy drives are very hard to find. While I think that upgrading the system to be based on, say, 1990 technology rather than 1980 technology is a good idea, I am sure they can make the existing system work for quite a while with an adequate supply of replacement drives. Regards, Nick Garnett ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 9 13:17:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > Some sad news... > > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/cnet/stories/1000732.htm > and > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9415 > > Quote: > "Morrow, who was 69, was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club, many > of the members of which became instrumental in pushing the concept > of the personal computer. > > He formed a firm called Microstuf and was responsible for the design > of the S100 bus." This totally sucks and is indeed sad news. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From allanh at kallisti.com Fri May 9 13:18:00 2003 From: allanh at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller In-Reply-To: <20030509170001.18345.3782.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20030509170001.18345.3782.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20030509111635.A4917@kallisti.com> Don Maslin wrote: > The TMS9927 data sheet which I have sent to Joe and Patrick states > that the CRT5027 is an SMC second source of this chip. It came > from a google search for TMS9927 and is on www.spies.*mumble* In case that doesn't turn out to be close enough, I have an SMC databook including the CRT5027 datasheet that I could scan in. allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh@kallisti.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 9 13:25:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) Message-ID: <10305091922.ZM19911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> This is just to remind anyone who saw my post a few days ago, and hasn't yet decided they need to rescue this MINC... > DEC MINC 11 > > This is a self contained mobile unit based on a PDP11. > > It has an ADC, Digital I/O and clock. VT05 VDU on top of it. Dual 8" > floppies. Era 1980. Quite heavy!! > > It's available up until 21st April - maybe a bit beyond if you really > want it. The deadline was extended until next week, but it is now a firm deadline -- the owner (not me) is in Edinburgh, and is moving office next week, to a new site. There's no way the MINC can go with him, and there's probably soe other stuff available as well. Surely someone can rescue this machine! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 9 13:32:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Does ANYBODY have a copy of "Quotations from Chairman Morrow"? Still looking... > even a xerox? text file? I'd settle for that. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From patrick at evocative.com Fri May 9 14:20:00 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller In-Reply-To: <20030509111635.A4917@kallisti.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Dan and Don, and everyone else who replied... I now have what I was looking for. I appreciate everyone's help. --Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Allan Hessenflow > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 11:17 AM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > The TMS9927 data sheet which I have sent to Joe and Patrick states > > that the CRT5027 is an SMC second source of this chip. It came > > from a google search for TMS9927 and is on www.spies.*mumble* > > In case that doesn't turn out to be close enough, I have an SMC > databook including the CRT5027 datasheet that I could scan in. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 9 14:25:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 2003, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > > Some sad news... > > This totally sucks and is indeed sad news. Epistomology I Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones: But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones. II We milk the cow of the world, and as we do, We whisper in her ear : "You are not true!" Richard Wilbur And what it means is - that even now we begin to lose the great people who have been at the foundations of the technology that modern 'civilization' is founded upon, and seemingly no one takes notice. They are silently passing and who knows? Who cares? What network runs a 'Special: The Passing of a Nerd' Yet - if every digital device were to cease working tomorrow - just how close to the Stone Age do ya think we'd sink? George Babbage Alan Turing John von Neumann Grace Hopper Howard Aiken and on and on... I spoke with George Morrow in the early 80s - several times. I worked (for a short but excruciating time) for a rat-box computer store that sold Morrow stuff - there were several very serious issues with the MicroDecision IIs that we sorted out... But: O well.... John From kth at srv.net Fri May 9 14:35:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (from originator) References: Message-ID: <3EBC0B18.6040605@srv.net> Nick Garnett wrote: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Thank you for your replies! From today's digest, they are: > > ?. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Fred Cisin, > from an earlier digest) > 2. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Ethan Dicks) > 4. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Jochen Kunz) > 7. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Peter Turnbull) > 11. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) > 12. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) > >Including all of these messages in my reply would be a >misuse of bandwidth. Please see the original text of the >replies. > >? Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Fred Cisin) > from yesterday's digest? > > Fred asks if we have considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" > drives. Hmmmm. I didn't know there were such drives. > I know of DSDD 360K 5.25 drives and 1.44M 3.5 drives, > even 720K 5.25 drives, but not 1.2M 5.25 drives. > 1.2M drives are/were very common. I have a 286 that has the option to specify a 1.2M 5.25" in the bios, so they go back fairly far. Most PC's > 286 came with 1.2M instead of the 360K, when they were shipped with 5.25" drives. > On the general subject of using a substitute drive. I > have actually been considering if this could be done. I > have not suggested doing that because I need to find out > the feasibility. I would hope we could at least get into > the 1990s with a 1.44M 3.5 in floppy drive. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 9 14:36:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: RARE AND UNUSUAL 1.2M 5.25" drives? (was: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (from originator) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote: > Fred asks if we have considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" > drives. Hmmmm. I didn't know there were such drives. > I know of DSDD 360K 5.25 drives and 1.44M 3.5 drives, > even 720K 5.25 drives, but not 1.2M 5.25 drives. 20 years ago, IBM brought forth onto the microcomputer world a "new" computer, with "advanced technology", called the "IBM AT". I doubt that they sold more than a few million of them with the 1.2M drive. Counting other manufacturers, there were probably less of them sold than MacDonald's hamburgers. The "AT" used a 80286 microprocessor, which could handle up to 16M of RAM, although for half a dozen years there was little if any software available to make use of any of its special features. But the most interesting part of the "AT" was the floppy drive. A number of years prior to the "AT", several drive manufacturers (Mitsubishi was the first one that I'm aware of) created a 5.25" disk drive that was INTENDED to be usable as a replacement for 8" drives. Well before the AT, Amlyn produced a 5.25" 1.2M drive with a 5 disk changer built in; now THAT is an unusual drive! Unlike the previous (360K DSDD) drives which turned at 300 RPM, 1.2M drives turned at 360RPM (like an 8" drive). And when used with 600 Oerstedt diskettes ("High density"), its electrical interface was almost indistinguishable from that of a "standard" 8" drive, such as a Shugart SA8xx, or a Tandon 848. The power supply for it was 5V and 12V, exactly like a "standard" (SA400) 5.25" drive, as opposed to the distinctly NON-standardized 8" drive power requirements. The interface cable for it was 34 pin, like a "standard" (SA400) 5.25", rather than the 50 pin that was the de-facto standard for 8" drives. It had 80 tracks per side, at 96 tracks per inch, instead of the 77 tracks of a "standard" 8" drive. The format that IBM used was 512 bytes per sector, with 15 sectors per track. That gave a capacity of 1228800 bytes, or 1.121875 "honest" megabytes (where a K is 1024 and a M is 1024 K (1048576)), or 1.228 Million bytes, or 1.2 IBM SLEAZY BOGUS "mega"bytes (where a "megabyte" is creatively redefined to be 1000*1024). But the format was largely a software issue, and the machine could do any format that the floppy disk controller was capable of, (see, for example: http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 ) It could mimic almost any 8" MFM format. With different FDCs, it is capable of any format that an 8" drive could do with the same controller. The ORIGINAL intent of the drive, according to a few drive manufacturers, was that by changing the power connector and interface cable, it could be used as a drop-in replacement for "standard" 8" drives. There is even an unsubstantiated rumor that when MICROS~1 was working on the OS mods for the new machines that would use it (without having seen the machine yet), that the programmers at MICROS~1 thought that IBM was planning to release a machine with 8" drives! But IBM used the 1.2M drive as the primary floppy for those machines, and even modified their disk controller design to incorporate a 300K bits per second data transfer rate to permit the "new" drive to be able to read disks from 360K drives. It could also write such disks, although with a few complications. [You prob'ly don't want to hear my rants about THAT] Some other manufacturers built 1.2M drives that had both a 360 RPM AND a 300RPM motor speed capability as an alternate way to incompletely solve the interchange issues. IBM made the 1.2M drive their "standard" 5.25" drive from then on, and even started stamping an asterisk on the front of any further 360K drives that they made in order to label them as being different. NOTE: It was intended as a substitute for "STANDARD" 8" drives. In the words of the late George Morrow: "Standards are a wonderful thing; everybody should have a unique one of their own." As has been pointed out by a few people, there existed numerous NON-STANDARD drives. The 1.2M is NOT very suitable for use in replacement of 8" drives where only one brand and model of 8" drive could be made to work, such as hard sectored with PERIMETER holes, drives with non-standard electrical or mechanical specs, drives where the drive circuitry was implemented elsewhere in the machine, etc. It is quite easy, in 8", 5.25", and even 3", 3.25", and 3.5" drives to find examples where NO other drive can replace the one used. > On the general subject of using a substitute drive. I > have actually been considering if this could be done. I > have not suggested doing that because I need to find out > the feasibility. I would hope we could at least get into > the 1990s with a 1.44M 3.5 in floppy drive. Probably, but anybody who can't replace an 8" drive with a 1.2M 5.25", will NOT be able to replace it with a 1.4M 3.5" (all of the changes needed for a 5.25" 1.2M would also be needed for a 3.5" 1.4M, plus a number of other changes). The BEST way to change over from an 8" drive to a 3.5" 1.4M is to FIRST change over to a 5.25" 1.2M, and get THAT working, THEN make the change to the 3.5" 1.4M. > These replies will probably be helpful to someone with a > hardware background (which I'm not). They point out the > complexities of substituting one type of drive > for another. This level of complexity is about what I > expected. Mostly, with some exceptions, those were documenting the existence of "NON-STANDARD" 8" drives, for which ANY change, even to a different make or model of 8" drive would be a challenge. You need to start by identifying the exact machine, and exactly what drive it currently uses. If it "doesn't matter" what brand and model of 8" drive, then it also won't matter whether it is an 8" drive or a 5.25" 1.2M. There has been some discussion here recently about how to identify whether a 5.25" drive is a 360K v a 1.2M. There have been proposals involving latch design, color, LED, weight, etc. The best way is to identify it by model number, and then confirm experimentally. Some of the many model numbers to look for include: Teac 55G, Shugart/Matsushita 475, and Mitsubishi 4854. Going rate for used ones is about a dime a dozen. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 9 14:56:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: RARE AND UNUSUAL 1.2M 5.25" drives? (was: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (from originator) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The format that IBM used was 512 bytes per sector, with 15 sectors per > track. That gave a capacity of 1228800 bytes, or 1.121875 "honest" > megabytes (where a K is 1024 and a M is 1024 K (1048576)), or 1.228 > Million bytes, or 1.2 IBM SLEAZY BOGUS "mega"bytes (where a "megabyte" is > creatively redefined to be 1000*1024). But the format was largely a CORRECTION: that should have read '1.171875 "honest" megabytes' There are a dozen other errors, but that one needed to be fixed. From jim at jkearney.com Fri May 9 15:01:00 2003 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 References: Message-ID: <047001c31665$8bce0ab0$0f01090a@xpace.net> > At the Second West Coast Computer Faire, he and Howard Fullmer, his chief > engineer (also dead) presented a paper towards standardizing the bus. This is a double blow.. not only George but Howard too. I did some firmware work for them in the early 80's and always thought of George and Howard as the models of the kind of engineers I wanted to be. The conversation I most remember with them was when we spent a hour with a chair and a piece of wood trying out ideas for a foot-operated mouse. This must have been just after Mouse Systems was showing their optical mouse at the WWCF. From graeme at davies4924.fsnet.co.uk Fri May 9 15:22:00 2003 From: graeme at davies4924.fsnet.co.uk (graeme) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) In-Reply-To: <10305091922.ZM19911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000201c31668$67b2d950$8cdd86d9@graemedntzltme> Hi there I am interested and not to far away in Newcastle. Probably I could collect Monday or wedensday. Graeme -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Turnbull Sent: 09 May 2003 19:23 To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) This is just to remind anyone who saw my post a few days ago, and hasn't yet decided they need to rescue this MINC... > DEC MINC 11 > > This is a self contained mobile unit based on a PDP11. > > It has an ADC, Digital I/O and clock. VT05 VDU on top of it. Dual 8" > floppies. Era 1980. Quite heavy!! > > It's available up until 21st April - maybe a bit beyond if you really > want it. The deadline was extended until next week, but it is now a firm deadline -- the owner (not me) is in Edinburgh, and is moving office next week, to a new site. There's no way the MINC can go with him, and there's probably soe other stuff available as well. Surely someone can rescue this machine! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 9 15:39:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030509020734.030af090@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <010501c31669$e05eeb40$0500fea9@game> $25 for a nubus uwscsi or a IIgs card is fair, but on ebay some go for over $50. I find it funny how you see the same person with the same add selling one a day after his last auction sold. Is it the same one that was bid up by a shill or does he have a big pile of the rare cards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 5:17 AM Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival > At 12:21 PM 5/6/03 -0400, TeoZ wrote: > >How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus scsi > >cards at these shows? > >I need 1 of each to max out my quadra 840av. > > > >Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? I have a nice > >syquest 44 drive and 10 carts I want to hook up to my IIgs. > > > >TeoZ > > > 10/100 nubus cards, once scarce, seemed to have pretty much disappeared. > I've been doing a search on ebay without any luck for a couple weeks. > NOBODY really needs one anyway, nubus and 68k macs just don't speed up more > than about double a standard 10bt. I figure my best chance of finding one > is hunting in a pile of scrap higher end nubus macs like 8100 servers etc. > > SCSI cards are a LOT easier to find, but most sellers seem attached to > about $25 pricing. > > Same for the IIgs SCSI cards. I have a few with no interest in selling them > below top price, or really selling them at all even though I have a Focus > card with IDE drive. Only the latter so called Fast SCSI card supports > removable media, so don't waste your money on the early cards. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri May 9 16:06:01 2003 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) In-Reply-To: <10305091922.ZM19911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001d01c3166e$6fba4d80$4d4d2c0a@atx> > The deadline was extended until next week, but it is now a firm > deadline -- the owner (not me) is in Edinburgh, and is moving office > next week, to a new site. There's no way the MINC can go with him, and > there's probably soe other stuff available as well. Surely someone can > rescue this machine! Edinburgh is a bit (a lot!) far for me ... especially as I have my eyes on a 11/34 thats currently on eBay in the UK (and within a couple of hours drive!) Andy From emu at ecubics.com Fri May 9 16:08:00 2003 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: 11/21 plus, falcon, m7676 Message-ID: <3EBC19AB.506@ecubics.com> Hi all, anybody out here has a manual for the falcon, 11/21 PLUS board ? (real names: EK-SBC02-UG & EK-SBC02-CG ) cheers & thanks From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri May 9 16:41:00 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: A very old hard drive for sale Message-ID: A gentleman contacted me about a large old hard drive he has for sale. I couldn?t use it as anything other then a paperweight, but maybe someone on-list has a use for it, even a decorative one? I?ve posted pictures at: http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/hokushin1.jpg http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/hokushin2.jpg http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/hokushin3.jpg Please contact the seller, Daniel, at natalierowe@earthlink.net Erik www.vintage-computer.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri May 9 17:14:00 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: A very old hard drive for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030509151320.026135a0@mail.zipcon.net> that sucks, the electronics are gone From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 9 17:57:01 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Altair version differences References: <3.0.6.16.20030508163503.3ad72bb8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c3167e$1a804490$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> I have an 8800 - what is your SN? I am wondering where mine falls. I have all the receipts, original mailing, training manuals from the Altair Training van, teletype, software, in plastic unused and old hobby mags back to 1966. I also have some spare parts, never un packaged. Plus quite a few advertising flyers. Are you aware of collection of this sort? I'd be happy to scan and send things if people want them. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Altair version differences > One difference was the use of flat vs round toggle switch handles. The > round handles cut into your fingers and made them SORE after toggling in > long programs. My first Altair was a 8800 but had the flat handles as used > on the A model. Steve Gabley (sp?) was tracking Altair serial numbers and > differences. He said that my Altair was the highest known SN for an 8800 > and one of very few 8800s with the flat handles. You should check with him, > I'm sure that he could tell you a lot more about the differences. > > I think one of the other differences was a beefier PS in the A but I > don't remember for sure. > > Joe > > At 11:07 AM 5/8/03 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi: > > > > Someone asked me what the difference between the 8800 and 8800a > >models. I know that some significant changes but I couldn't enumerate them. > > > > Can someone help here? Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > >========================== > >Richard A. Cini, Jr. > >First Vice President > >Congress Financial Corporation > >1133 Avenue of the Americas > >30th Floor > >New York, NY 10036 > >(212) 545-4402 > >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allain at panix.com Fri May 9 18:17:01 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 References: Message-ID: <004901c31680$d785c900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> The best I remember seeing on Morrow were interviews in a series in ?1987 from ?KTEH called "Silicon Valley:Hometown", "...:Company Town" and so-on. > ...seemingly no one takes notice. They are silently passing I wouldn't say it's a total wasteland. Jon Postel IIRC got mentioned on the front page of the New York Times. If you type his name into Yahoo you get 31,000 hits. My apologies for not mentioning Anita Borg's passing earlier on this list. I hadn't met her, but I understand she was of note in the same circles as Grace Hopper. In living memory. It means us, folks. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 18:34:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (from originator) In-Reply-To: from "Nick Garnett" at May 9, 3 10:53:31 am Message-ID: > ? Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Fred Cisin) > from yesterday's digest? > > Fred asks if we have considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" > drives. Hmmmm. I didn't know there were such drives. > I know of DSDD 360K 5.25 drives and 1.44M 3.5 drives, > even 720K 5.25 drives, but not 1.2M 5.25 drives. Oh yes, the 1.2M drive (that's 1.2 'IBM Megabytes' -- 1000*1024 bytes) was a common drive on PC/AT (286) and later PCs. The PC I am typing this on has one fitted. It's a double-sided 80 cylinder unit turning at 360 rpm (like an 8" drive, all other 5.25" and most 3.5" [1] drives turn at 300 rpm). It uses the higher data rate (500kbps) like an 8" drive. I have successfully used such a drive in place of an 8" drive. It's not a drop-in replacement -- the cable/connectors are different, and there are minor differences in some of the signals. Btu it can noramlly be got to work. The problems really start if the drive you're replaceing wasn't a standard 8" drive (the cannoical example of this is the DEC RX01 or RX02), or if it uses some of the features on the 8" drive (data separator, hard sector sector/index hole separation) that were never provided on 5.25" drives [1] Early 3.5" drives, often used by HP, rotated at 600rpm. And for completness, there was a 5.25" drive that rotated at 180 rpm, allowing the use of 1.2M disks on a normal (not high density) controller. > > On the general subject of using a substitute drive. I > have actually been considering if this could be done. I > have not suggested doing that because I need to find out > the feasibility. I would hope we could at least get into > the 1990s with a 1.44M 3.5 in floppy drive. It's possible, but if you want to go that route, get the machine working with a 1.2M 5.25" drive first. Once that works correctly, then get it working with the 3.5" unit. By doiing the conversion in 2 stages, you will have a clearer idea as to where any problems are coming from. [...] > These replies will probably be helpful to someone with a > hardware background (which I'm not). They point out the I sometimes forget that not everybody was born holding a soldering iron and screwdriver :-).. Although I do find it hard to understand how anyone can attempt to maintain and/or modify a computer without understanding some hardware (and for that matter some programming). > 11. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) > > Your answer is not silly at all. I didn't know whether > such drives would be very rare or plentiful in the > "vintage" market. I see now that there are "plenty" of They are not rare. I don't know how easy they are to find for sale -- certainly I am not selling any of mine. But there are plenty of working drives still around (Even if most of them are attached to working vintage computers). > The client has been repairing the drives for years. They > are in heavy constant use. I get the impression that > they are simply getting too fragile to repair. I find that very hard to believe. These drives were _very_ solidly made. I supplse it's possible the heads have worn out with all that use, but just about anything else can be fixed quite easily. Heads can be replaced if you can find them, BTW.... -tony From cbajpai at attbi.com Fri May 9 19:01:00 2003 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c31687$98d07460$6f7ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Crap...died on my birthday too. For some strange reason I always wanted to meet George Morrow...but unfortunately that opportunity won't come...I'll have to try to get one of his systems though. Anyone know what he was doing (technology wise) in the 1990's? I thought I remember him as a commentator on the PBS Computer Chronicles TV Show...he was pretty good. I also understand he never got fantastically wealthy off any of his companies. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Dzubin Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:22 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 Some sad news... http://www.businessweek.com/technology/cnet/stories/1000732.htm and http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9415 Quote: "Morrow, who was 69, was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club, many of the members of which became instrumental in pushing the concept of the personal computer. He formed a firm called Microstuf and was responsible for the design of the S100 bus." ------------------- Thomas Dzubin Calgary, Saskatoon, or Vancouver CANADA From thorh at ismennt.is Fri May 9 21:17:01 2003 From: thorh at ismennt.is (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DE=F3rhallur?= Ragnarsson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (from originator) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030510021107.009ec920@mail.ismennt.is> At 23:17 9.5.2003, you wrote: > > ? Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Fred Cisin) > > from yesterday's digest? > > > > Fred asks if we have considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" > > drives. Hmmmm. I didn't know there were such drives. > > I know of DSDD 360K 5.25 drives and 1.44M 3.5 drives, > > even 720K 5.25 drives, but not 1.2M 5.25 drives. > >Oh yes, the 1.2M drive (that's 1.2 'IBM Megabytes' -- 1000*1024 bytes) >was a common drive on PC/AT (286) and later PCs. The PC I am typing this >on has one fitted. > >It's a double-sided 80 cylinder unit turning at 360 rpm (like an 8" >drive, all other 5.25" and most 3.5" [1] drives turn at 300 rpm). It uses >the higher data rate (500kbps) like an 8" drive. > >I have successfully used such a drive in place of an 8" drive. It's not a >drop-in replacement -- the cable/connectors are different, and there are >minor differences in some of the signals. Btu it can noramlly be got to >work. The problems really start if the drive you're replaceing wasn't a >standard 8" drive (the cannoical example of this is the DEC RX01 or >RX02), or if it uses some of the features on the 8" drive (data >separator, hard sector sector/index hole separation) that were never >provided on 5.25" drives > >[1] Early 3.5" drives, often used by HP, rotated at 600rpm. And for >completness, there was a 5.25" drive that rotated at 180 rpm, allowing >the use of 1.2M disks on a normal (not high density) controller. > > > > > On the general subject of using a substitute drive. I > > have actually been considering if this could be done. I > > have not suggested doing that because I need to find out > > the feasibility. I would hope we could at least get into > > the 1990s with a 1.44M 3.5 in floppy drive. > >It's possible, but if you want to go that route, get the machine working with >a 1.2M 5.25" drive first. Once that works correctly, then get it working >with the 3.5" unit. By doiing the conversion in 2 stages, you will have a >clearer idea as to where any problems are coming from. > >[...] > > > These replies will probably be helpful to someone with a > > hardware background (which I'm not). They point out the > >I sometimes forget that not everybody was born holding a soldering iron >and screwdriver :-).. Although I do find it hard to understand how anyone >can attempt to maintain and/or modify a computer without understanding >some hardware (and for that matter some programming). > > > 11. Re: Working 8" Floppy drives??? (Tony Duell) > > > > Your answer is not silly at all. I didn't know whether > > such drives would be very rare or plentiful in the > > "vintage" market. I see now that there are "plenty" of > >They are not rare. I don't know how easy they are to find for sale -- >certainly I am not selling any of mine. But there are plenty of working >drives still around (Even if most of them are attached to working vintage >computers). > > > The client has been repairing the drives for years. They > > are in heavy constant use. I get the impression that > > they are simply getting too fragile to repair. > >I find that very hard to believe. These drives were _very_ solidly made. >I supplse it's possible the heads have worn out with all that use, but >just about anything else can be fixed quite easily. Heads can be replaced >if you can find them, BTW.... > >-tony From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 9 21:56:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <000101c31687$98d07460$6f7ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > For some strange reason I always wanted to meet George Morrow...but > unfortunately that opportunity won't come...I'll have to try to get one > of his systems though. I'd been trying to track him down for the past few years to ask him to speak at the VCF. He was rather reclusive. > Anyone know what he was doing (technology wise) in the 1990's? I thought > I remember him as a commentator on the PBS Computer Chronicles TV > Show...he was pretty good. That and, as mentioned in one of the obit. articles posted, he became an audiophile and was big into early vinyl records. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 9 23:14:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > He formed a firm called Microstuf and was responsible for the design > > of the S100 bus." > > This totally sucks and is indeed sad news. His death certainly sucks, but the design of the S100 bus doesn't totally suck. It has some flaws, and is NOT adequately standardized, but doe not totally suck. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 9 23:16:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <047001c31665$8bce0ab0$0f01090a@xpace.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Jim Kearney wrote: > > At the Second West Coast Computer Faire, he and Howard Fullmer, his chief > > engineer (also dead) presented a paper towards standardizing the bus. > > This is a double blow.. not only George but Howard too. I did some About 10? years ago, I remember seeing a single paragraph mention of Howard's death in either Microtimes or Computer Currents. But that is ALL that I know about it. I hadn't seen him for a few years before that. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 9 23:24:00 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V Message-ID: <200305100434.VAA09048@floodgap.com> A recent dream come true (no, nothing to do with the opposite sex). I am, or will shortly be, the proud owner of a Tomy Pyuuta, the original Japanese release that evolved into the American Tomy Tutor. It's traveling on the high seas from Hokkaido, Japan as we speak. Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? At least it's NTSC! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- if (you.canRead(this)) you.canGet(new job(!problem)); -- Seen at JavaOne --- From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 9 23:37:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: <200305100434.VAA09048@floodgap.com> References: <200305100434.VAA09048@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era > (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage > is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? Also most likely 50 htz. Two syllables: Variac. Little one, 2 amps is more than enough. It is quite possible that you'll slowly fry the power transformer - it will always run hot on USA mains. If you can score a cheap small variac, you can run it on 90 or 95 volts and it undoubtedly will be happy. If it has an external 'brick', then you can substitute that for something that puts out the voltages the Tomy needs. But I'd be *real* leery of running lagacy Japanese linear power supplies on 117/60 lines. Domo arrigato. John From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 10 00:11:00 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: from John Lawson at "May 10, 3 00:35:06 am" Message-ID: <200305100520.WAA08766@floodgap.com> > > Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era > > (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage > > is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? > > Also most likely 50 htz. I thought that Japanese voltage could be either, something like the west coast being 60Hz and the east coast being 50Hz (IIRC). > Two syllables: Variac. Little one, 2 amps is more than enough. It is > quite possible that you'll slowly fry the power transformer - it will > always run hot on USA mains. If you can score a cheap small variac, you > can run it on 90 or 95 volts and it undoubtedly will be happy. Hmm, okay. I probably should invest in a Variac anyway. Sources? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Now you see why evil will always win, because good is dumb. -- "Spaceballs" From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat May 10 04:51:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: <200305100520.WAA08766@floodgap.com> References: <200305100520.WAA08766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Two syllables: Variac. Little one, 2 amps is more than enough. It is > > quite possible that you'll slowly fry the power transformer - it will > > always run hot on USA mains. If you can score a cheap small variac, > > you can run it on 90 or 95 volts and it undoubtedly will be happy. > > Hmm, okay. I probably should invest in a Variac anyway. Sources? The best places I've found are electronics scrap/surplus dealers. Variacs can be found elsewhere, but the prices are usually higher. -Toth From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat May 10 09:56:01 2003 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Dean Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: <200305100434.VAA09048@floodgap.com> References: <200305100434.VAA09048@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20030510145012.12300.qmail@xpres.ccp.com> Cameron Kaiser writes: > Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era > (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage > is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? A variac (ISTR is three syllables) will work, but why can't you get a 18-20vac transformer and wire it to buck the 120v down to 100v? I'd think that would be simpler, and a whole lot smaller. Cameron, you said you were in the market for a variac. I have a couple for sale, but they are 10A, complete with STEEL rack panel. These would be great for any workbench, and good for some current as well. Drop me a line offlist. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From dgari at msn.com Sat May 10 13:15:01 2003 From: dgari at msn.com (David Gari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Need Data Sheet: CRT5027 CRT controller Message-ID: Chip Directory ( http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/ ) which is usually infallible came up with this: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/c/s.htm#smsc but a cursory search of the SMSC site didn't come up with anything. Try calling a human there. >Does anyone have a datasheet for the (very discontinued) CRT5027 controller >(SMSC) that they would be willing to scan/send to me? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 10 13:34:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: OT: clearout including UPS Message-ID: <10305101930.ZM20695@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> As part of my clearout, I'm trying to get rid of my "big" UPS. I mentioned this several months ago on the list, but here it is again: It's a Powerware Prestige 6000, with two battery boxes, software, manual, and various cables. Input is rated 200/208/220/230/240V AC at 19A (power factor 0.9) single phase, output is 200/208/220/230/240V AC at 19A (max 3000W). The battery boxes are each rated 120V DC 50A and 5AH capacity. Size is about 40cm deep x 25cm wide x 28 cm high for the control box and the battery boxes are half the height, so 40 x 25 x 14 each. They all stack nicely together (in any sensible order). I have used it, but the batteries (10 x 12V gel batteries in each box) do need replaced -- none will hold any significant charge/voltage. The batteries cost about ?7 each. You only need one box, though. If no-one wants this, it's going in the skip (or at least to recycling). No, I will not even consider shipping it; collect only. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 10 13:42:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: ADM 5 terminal Message-ID: <10305101939.ZM20702@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I have an ADM 5 terminal to get rid of. It's Lear Siegler's successor to the ADM 3a, and looks very much like an ADM 3A, but has lower case (with true descenders), cursor keys and function keys. It's very clean, works well, and comes with the manual. Collect only, though. If you're interested, make me an offer (small amount). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgari at msn.com Sat May 10 13:55:00 2003 From: dgari at msn.com (David Gari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 Message-ID: I had the pleasure of working at Morrow Designs in 1980 as a board repair tech (I was 20). I poured over George's schematics and wondered at his elegance of design. When he came to the shop floor he was always hyperactive, funny and informative, a genuine treat to be around. He will be missed. -David Gari From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 10 14:04:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question Message-ID: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I have a StorageWorks unit that's surplus to requirements. It's a floor-standing box, complete with the doors and keys, 2 PSUs, and some "innards". Can anyone tell me if all thse bits belong in the same unit? 2 x SWXBP power supply 1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) 1 x 70-32155-01 8-bit interface (SCSI? or what?) 1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk 1 x TLZ06 DDS tape drive It came wih a MicroVAX some time ago, but I've never used it. Anybody want it, for a suitably low price? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From unr00ster at worldnet.att.net Sat May 10 14:10:00 2003 From: unr00ster at worldnet.att.net (UnRooster) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about Commodore 64? http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/index.html >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal >operational use > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know >if there was something older) From skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org Sat May 10 14:36:00 2003 From: skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org (Barry Skidmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052595265.12310.0.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11. On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 14:14, UnRooster wrote: > What about Commodore 64? > > http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/index.html > > > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > >operational use > > > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet > > > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages > >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, > >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know > >if there was something older) -- Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's -- From allain at panix.com Sat May 10 14:57:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:32 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: Message-ID: <000b01c3172e$05c77cc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Never thought I'd see it (I live in a pretty much non-engineering area) but I just picked up a SparcII complete (nice Monitor, KB) in somebodies >> Yard Sale << for about nothing ($5). Now to check it out... John A. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 10 15:59:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Sat, May 10, 2003 at 12:00:28 %z References: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20030510191541.GO1445@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.10 12:00 Peter Turnbull wrote: > 1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) Sounds like a very nifty device that can turn a (bunch of) SCSI disk(s) into a (bunch of) DSSI disk(s). I.e. you connect a SCSI disk on one side and it presents a DSSI disk on a DSSI bus on the other side to a VAX. As DSSI disks are rare, especially with high capacity, this thing may be of some value. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 10 17:32:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: <200305100434.VAA09048@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 9, 3 09:34:08 pm Message-ID: > A recent dream come true (no, nothing to do with the opposite sex). > > I am, or will shortly be, the proud owner of a Tomy Pyuuta, the original > Japanese release that evolved into the American Tomy Tutor. It's traveling > on the high seas from Hokkaido, Japan as we speak. > > Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era > (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage > is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? It might be OK< but it's quite easy to reduce the US voltage to around 100V. What you need is a step-down transformer giving about 15V from the US mains. The secodnary current rating of this transformer can be quite low -- 1A should be easily enough. Connect it like this : +-----------+ | | o------------+---)||(----+ )||( 15V )||( Secondary Mains 115V )||(---------------o Primary )|| )|| 100V )|| Output )|| o------------+---)|| | +-----------------------o Conncect up the transformer as shown, but don't connect the output to your machine yet. Connect an AC voltmeter to the output. If you get a higher voltage out (around 130V) that the mains, then switch off and reverse the connections to one (but not both) of the transformer windings. When you get around 100V out, you can connect it to the Japanese machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 10 17:32:59 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 10, 3 00:35:06 am Message-ID: > On Fri, 9 May 2003, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era > > (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage > > is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? > > Also most likely 50 htz. > > Two syllables: Variac. Little one, 2 amps is more than enough. It is > quite possible that you'll slowly fry the power transformer - it will Why? A transformer desgined for 50Hz will always be happy on 60Hz mains. It's the reverse (using the transformer on a lower frequency than it was designed for) that causes problems. In general, you need a larger transformer (more iron in the core) for a lower frequency. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sat May 10 17:48:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: 11/21 plus, falcon, m7676 In-Reply-To: <3EBC19AB.506@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <000701c31746$0cba9590$cb87fe3e@athlon> > anybody out here has a manual for the falcon, 11/21 PLUS > board ? (real names: EK-SBC02-UG & EK-SBC02-CG ) There's a manual that looks close here: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp11/ (look for the KXT11-UG). If that's not the one you need, I have a scan of EK-SCB02-UG-001 SBC-11/21 PLUS Single-Board Computer User's Guide. Let me know if you need that and we'll work out some way of getting it to you electronically (it's probably quite big so email won't work). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 10 18:43:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: 11/21 plus, falcon, m7676 In-Reply-To: "Antonio Carlini" "RE: 11/21 plus, falcon, m7676" (May 10, 23:46) References: <000701c31746$0cba9590$cb87fe3e@athlon> Message-ID: <10305110032.ZM20900@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 10, 23:46, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > anybody out here has a manual for the falcon, 11/21 PLUS > > board ? (real names: EK-SBC02-UG & EK-SBC02-CG ) > > There's a manual that looks close here: > http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp11/ > (look for the KXT11-UG). It probably won't help as the Falcon and Falcon PLUS are very different boards. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 10 18:44:10 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: StorageWorks question" (May 10, 12:15) References: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20030510191541.GO1445@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10305110037.ZM20906@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 10, 12:15, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > [ plain text > Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] : On 2003.05.10 12:00 Peter Turnbull wrote: > > > 1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) > Sounds like a very nifty device that can turn a (bunch of) SCSI disk(s) > into a (bunch of) DSSI disk(s). I.e. you connect a SCSI disk on one > side and it presents a DSSI disk on a DSSI bus on the other side to a > VAX. As DSSI disks are rare, especially with high capacity, this thing > may be of some value. Oh. Maybe I should investigate that. Thanks, Jochen. Anyone else know any more about how it works (connections, etc)? Anyone desperately need one? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 10 18:44:16 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: Peter Turnbull "StorageWorks question" (May 10, 20:00) References: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10305110041.ZM20914@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 10, 20:00, Peter Turnbull wrote: > I have a StorageWorks unit that's surplus to requirements. It's a > floor-standing box, complete with the doors and keys, 2 PSUs, and some > "innards". I should have mentioned it's a BA35X-MD box. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cmurray at eagle.ca Sat May 10 20:24:00 2003 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: cctalk digest, Vol 1 #591 - 34 msgs References: <20030510170001.28744.16347.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3EBDA5BD.B8C2B023@eagle.ca> Hi Sellam, I quite agree. A pioneer in the microcomputer world who was a hardware designer establishing standards the industry thrived on into the 80s. Murray-- > > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:12:40 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > To: > Subject: Re: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 > Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > On Fri, 9 May 2003, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > > Some sad news... > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/cnet/stories/1000732.htm > > and > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9415 > > > > Quote: > > "Morrow, who was 69, was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club, many > > of the members of which became instrumental in pushing the concept > > of the personal computer. > > > > He formed a firm called Microstuf and was responsible for the design > > of the S100 bus." > > This totally sucks and is indeed sad news. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rdd at rddavis.org Sat May 10 21:00:00 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030511015901.GD94230@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe UnRooster, from writings of Sat, May 10, 2003 at 01:14:38PM -0600: > What about Commodore 64? Hardly. That's one of those newfangled little computers of relatively recent vintage. It doesn't seem all that long since my C-64 was brand spanking new. Does that mean that I'm getting old? ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 10 21:02:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: IBM Punch Card cabinets Message-ID: Strange question, how deep are the drawers in punch card cabinets, the tops are pretty much flush with the card aren't they? I'm assuming I couldn't be lucky enough for them to be another 0.25-1 inch deeper. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 10 21:07:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: [Cascade-SC] Organizing Stereoptigraph cards In-Reply-To: <20030510.131549.-1790007.35.obiedodi@juno.com> References: <20030510.131549.-1790007.35.obiedodi@juno.com> Message-ID: >I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think that stereo cards are pretty much >the same size as IBM punch cards. If this is correct, I'll bet there are >hundreds (maybe thousands) of IBM punch card cabinets, of varying sizes, >for varying numbers of cards, that could be had, at who knows what price. > > Obie Try not to be to scared.... :^) I actually have a card punch and reader, so grabbing a ruler, they're 7 3/8's x 3 1/4 inches. Unfortunately while I've got a punch, reader, and a few blank cards, I don't have any cabinets. The person I got the reader from wasn't about to give up his cabinets (or blank cards). This might be an excellent idea. Unfortunately as I recall the drawers are flush with the cards. I've just posted a question to a mailing list where there are people that should know the exact dimensions of the drawers. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 10 21:18:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use References: <20030511015901.GD94230@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <006201c31762$6e65b920$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military server somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their equipment out every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other branches only upgrade after every user who knows how to run the system is dead/retired. Probably some computer setup for the social security database, or liscense plate server or other mundane task. Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the C64. What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? Or is this just personal computers? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > Quothe UnRooster, from writings of Sat, May 10, 2003 at 01:14:38PM -0600: > > What about Commodore 64? > > Hardly. That's one of those newfangled little computers of relatively > recent vintage. It doesn't seem all that long since my C-64 was > brand spanking new. Does that mean that I'm getting old? ;-) > > -- > Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 10 21:22:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I have a StorageWorks unit that's surplus to requirements. It's a >floor-standing box, complete with the doors and keys, 2 PSUs, and some >"innards". Can anyone tell me if all thse bits belong in the same >unit? > >2 x SWXBP power supply Unless the HSD10 is pulling a LOT of power, you should be able to get by using just one of these, while having two gives you redundant power, I prefer to have the slot open for another device. >1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) As mentioned, it lets you use SCSI devices on a MicroVAX with DSSI. >1 x 70-32155-01 8-bit interface (SCSI? or what?) Does this plug into the end opposite the powersupplies? It sounds like you've got a BA356 shelf. If so, I'm envious, I've only got BA350's, the BA356 supports both 8-bit and 16-bit interface modules. Oh, yes, if we're talking about the same thing, it's SCSI. It's a High Density 50-pin connector, right? >1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk RZ29B-VW? >1 x TLZ06 DDS tape drive You have an SBB, with a TLZ06 in it? Now I'm even greener with envy! I've only got disks. Plus, I don't have any of the nice enclosed models with doors. >I should have mentioned it's a BA35X-MD box. These are actually the fans on the back of the shelf. The good news is they're the good dual-speed ones that support the 7200RPM drives. >It came wih a MicroVAX some time ago, but I've never used it. Anybody >want it, for a suitably low price? You might just want to keep it... I really like using StorageWorks on my VMS systems. I've got a BA350 attached to the PWS 433au I use as a server via a Narrow SCSI card. If you want, I should be able to dig up all the manuals on this, as I think I've got PDF's of them. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 10 21:32:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <1052595265.12310.0.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> References: <1052595265.12310.0.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> Message-ID: >Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11. Doesn't someone have a PDP-8/e hooked up to the Internet in such a manner that visitors to his site can run stuff on it? > > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > > >operational use Define what you mean by "Oldest Computer or Computer System". That can figure heavily into the correct answer. After all, systems that you might not consider still under production, such as the PDP-10 or PDP-11 are to at least a certain extent (and I don't mean emulation). Also, if emulation counts, that might skew the answer as well. Remember emulation has been used for production systems for a *LONG* time. There are still PDP-8's, PDP-10's and PDP-11's in daily use. I'm sure there are at least a couple older ones out there. Just look for industrial and scientific applications. > > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet Well, various platforms that were connected to Arpanet are still being used. > > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages >> >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, >> >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know >> >if there was something older) I'm aware of systems running TOPS-20 and RT-11 serving web pages. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rdd at rddavis.org Sat May 10 22:42:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030511034042.GF94230@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe John Lawson, from writings of Fri, May 09, 2003 at 03:23:13PM -0400: > And what it means is - that even now we begin to lose the great people > who have been at the foundations of the technology that modern > 'civilization' is founded upon, and seemingly no one takes notice. They > are silently passing and who knows? Who cares? What network runs a > 'Special: The Passing of a Nerd' [...] Well said! One's perceived value to society appears to be inversely proportional to intellect. To be of great value to society, one must think like a lobotomized ape and go around speaking such meaningful phrases as "duhhh, footbawl!" > Yet - if every digital device were to cease working tomorrow - just how > close to the Stone Age do ya think we'd sink? Considering that a large percentage of the world's population, including a large percentage U.S. population, still appears to not even have evolved to the Stone Age yet, it probably wouldn't take long at all. Given that a large percentage of politicians still have a pre-pre-historic mind-set, they won't be of much help. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From cb at mythtech.net Sat May 10 22:47:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: >What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? Or >is this just personal computers? Well, for my question, it doesn't matter if it is personal computer or a mainframe or whatever. Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. However, I WOULD consider any original ground based systems that are still in use listening for data from Voyager to be valid. At least they are still serving a purpose even if they aren't getting any data. -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 10 23:09:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 References: <20030511034042.GF94230@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <000d01c31771$fab33e20$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> No one takes notice because modern technology is built on millions of small advances from little know people just doing their job. Some advances like the light bulb were invented by multiple people at the same time, first guy in the patent door gets all the glory. Without electricity the light bulb is worthless, without an electrical conductor that is insulated electricity is worthless.. and so on. The fact that people in the field that the deceased was in know he has passed (or know of him at all) would mean more to the person then having his name plastered on the TV for .5 seconds in between an advertisement for coke and newest episode of friends. If every digital device stopped working tomorrow it would take a few years to rebuild those devices, and efficencies would drop in quite a bit of manufacturing. But going back to the stone age will not happen. Dont forget everything built in the 50's and 60's was built using analog controls along with relay logic and pneumatics. People went to the moon on simple technology built using sliderules. Sure we wont have a playstation 2, digital TV, calculaters, and computers to name a few.. but that isnt the stone age either. God forbid we might have to get out of our houses and interact with other people instead of playing with our gadgets all day. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:40 PM Subject: Re: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 > Quothe John Lawson, from writings of Fri, May 09, 2003 at 03:23:13PM -0400: > > And what it means is - that even now we begin to lose the great people > > who have been at the foundations of the technology that modern > > 'civilization' is founded upon, and seemingly no one takes notice. They > > are silently passing and who knows? Who cares? What network runs a > > 'Special: The Passing of a Nerd' > [...] > > Well said! One's perceived value to society appears to be inversely > proportional to intellect. To be of great value to society, one must > think like a lobotomized ape and go around speaking such meaningful > phrases as "duhhh, footbawl!" > > > Yet - if every digital device were to cease working tomorrow - just how > > close to the Stone Age do ya think we'd sink? > > Considering that a large percentage of the world's population, > including a large percentage U.S. population, still appears to not > even have evolved to the Stone Age yet, it probably wouldn't take long > at all. Given that a large percentage of politicians still have a > pre-pre-historic mind-set, they won't be of much help. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 10 23:19:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use References: Message-ID: <001401c31773$491fbb00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Wether its sending back data is mute since its too far away for that data to get to us. Its missin was to send back data on everything it found, why would that misson ever end since its still moving through space? I dont understand your logic. The Voyager is ruled out because it might be too far away to have its valid data (stuff it was made to send back on purpose) get back to us, but the recieving equipment that will never get any data back since the signal isnt getting back is still a valid system? Would an old obsolete college computer that runs a 300 baud bbs still be valid if nobody knows about it, or even called it and the college forgot to shut it down in the last 40 years? If somebody fires up an old 50's analog computer in a museum just to see if it still kicks is it really "in use"? ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:46 PM Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > >What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? Or > >is this just personal computers? > > Well, for my question, it doesn't matter if it is personal computer or a > mainframe or whatever. > > Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. > > However, I WOULD consider any original ground based systems that are > still in use listening for data from Voyager to be valid. At least they > are still serving a purpose even if they aren't getting any data. > > -chris > From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat May 10 23:44:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <001401c31773$491fbb00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> References: <001401c31773$491fbb00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <200305110042.18349.jcwren@jcwren.com> This mission would end because the Radio Thermal Isotope Generators (RTGs) died. No power, no radio transmission, no matter how good the receiver is. And if I recall correctly, the reason we can't currently hear it is because the high gain antenna is not dead-nuts on towards earth, because of the plane of the ecleptic, or some such. --John On Sunday 11 May 2003 00:10 am, TeoZ wrote: > Wether its sending back data is mute since its too far away for that data > to get to us. Its missin was to send back data on everything it found, why > would that misson ever end since its still moving through space? > > I dont understand your logic. The Voyager is ruled out because it might be > too far away to have its valid data (stuff it was made to send back on > purpose) get back to us, but the recieving equipment that will never get > any data back since the signal isnt getting back is still a valid system? > > Would an old obsolete college computer that runs a 300 baud bbs still be > valid if nobody knows about it, or even called it and the college forgot to > shut it down in the last 40 years? > > If somebody fires up an old 50's analog computer in a museum just to see if > it still kicks is it really "in use"? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "chris" > To: "Classic Computers" > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:46 PM > Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > > > >What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? > > Or > > > >is this just personal computers? > > > > Well, for my question, it doesn't matter if it is personal computer or a > > mainframe or whatever. > > > > Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > > can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > > data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. > > > > However, I WOULD consider any original ground based systems that are > > still in use listening for data from Voyager to be valid. At least they > > are still serving a purpose even if they aren't getting any data. > > > > -chris > > From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 11 00:01:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: >I dont understand your logic. Logic plays no role... this was nothing more than a question I posed (almost a week ago non the less). Therefore in looking for answers, I can allow or disallow anything I please for any reason I please. That doesn't make it valid or invalid for anyone other than me. If others want to tag onto my 2 questions, then they can use whatever criterea they desire to see if something is a valid answer for them. >The Voyager is ruled out because it might be >too far away to have its valid data (stuff it was made to send back on >purpose) get back to us, but the recieving equipment that will never get any >data back since the signal isnt getting back is still a valid system? The big strike Voyager has against it in my book is that no one can tell if it is still running. Its not valid to me, because it might be mythical (not the craft, but rather the fact that it is still functioning). The ground computers on the other hand are valid, because they can be verified and someone each budgeting cycle has to make the decision if they want to continue to spend money having them operate. So they are still doing their original job... listening for data from Voyager. Of course, its all pretty irrelivant as I'm sure the original ground computers for Voyager have long since been shut off and removed. NASA may still be listening, but if they are, I'm sure the task has been lumped in with other newer monitoring systems. >Would an old obsolete college computer that runs a 300 baud bbs still be >valid if nobody knows about it, or even called it and the college forgot to >shut it down in the last 40 years? If it is running ONLY because no one knows its running AND no one knows it exists... then its a mute point. If a tree falls in the woods... Although, I would still, for my original question, consider it not valid. Because it isn't in normal use. The simple fact that no one knows about it removes it from use (no one dials in to the BBS anymore, and the sysop forgot it is there so isn't leaving it up just in case someone stumbles on it). If on the other hand, a sysop knows about it and IS leaving it running just to see if someone hits it, then I might consider it valid. At least it is still serving a function. But I would have to hunt for a better answer, something that is a bit more in use. (I would also probably hunt for a better answer than Voyager ground monitoring computers for the same reason, they may be valid, but they are a poor example). >If somebody fires up an old 50's analog computer in a museum just to see if >it still kicks is it really "in use"? No, because my ORIGINAL question was, what is the oldest computer still in normal use. So for MY question, that is, the answer I am looking for.... I will only consider a computer that was put into service when it was reasonably new, and is still functioning today. I will also accept an old computer that was put back into service either as a replacement for one the died, or because it was needed to do a job, and it was the best option for the job. So I wouldn't consider a collector or museum that has put an old machine into service just because they can (although that would still be interesting to know, but for my question, I would consider that a different catagory). This of course is 100% acceptable as an answer for my 2nd question that was: Whats the oldest computer connected online and preferably hosting a site that can be visited. Its very acceptable to me that the best answer for this is one that is doing it for no other reason than because someone wanted to see if it could be done with one of their old collected computers. But for my first question, 'm looking for the type of answer along the lines of "Company XXX still uses YYY for their ZZZ process". -chris From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 11 00:10:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: >> Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You >> can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back >> data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. > >Both Voyager spacecraft are still transmitting. Is NASA still getting data? I assume it will continue to transmit until a failure of some kind occurs, regardless of if we can hear it. But I didn't think NASA was still getting data from V_YGER :-) -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 11 00:33:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use References: Message-ID: <004d01c3177d$b7ab17e0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/20/tech/main519236.shtml Looks like they still get back data (of what I dont know since they passed the known planets). Voyager will have power untill 2020 or somewhere around there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: Cc: "Classic Computers" Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:08 AM Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > >> Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > >> can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > >> data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. > > > >Both Voyager spacecraft are still transmitting. > > Is NASA still getting data? I assume it will continue to transmit until a > failure of some kind occurs, regardless of if we can hear it. But I > didn't think NASA was still getting data from V_YGER :-) > > -chris > From zmerch at 30below.com Sun May 11 00:38:00 2003 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030511011310.024eeec8@mail.30below.com> At 01:00 05/11/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >I dont understand your logic. > >Logic plays no role... [snip] >If it is running ONLY because no one knows its running AND no one knows >it exists... then its a mute point. If a tree falls in the woods... ^^^^^^^^^^ & ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Was the pun intended? The term is "moot point" -- to be "mute" is to be unable to speak/make sounds, which does tie into the original quote, which IIRC is "If a tree falls in the woods, and no-one is around to hear it, does it make a _sound_. Sound is merely a disturbance in a medium (in this instance, air) within an audible range. The fact that the tree disturbed the medium is all that matters, so the answer is "yes..." ... Which is why I had a notebook in college which had a much more thought-provoking quote: "If a tree falls in the woods, and no-one is around to hear it, does anybody give a shit?" ;-) >Although, I would still, for my original question, consider it not valid. >Because it isn't in normal use.... Define "Normal" -- If you can't define "normal" to us, and can accept or dismiss anything any way you like, then we cannot give you a logical answer to your original question and the entire discussion up to this point is moot. ("Mute? Unless you're using text-to-speech software, I doubt you're hearing this... ;-) >But for my first question, 'm looking for the type of answer along the >lines of "Company XXX still uses YYY for their ZZZ process". So, does that leave the gubbermint out? A different poster had postulated (and I'm paraphrasing - I don't have the original...) " The gubbermint has so much money that they replace everything every few years. " Bzzt! Anyone who has actually done time in the military (read: gubbermint) knows that there's *still* Civil-war surplus floating around... ... Okay, so I'm exaggerating a little - but the government still uses a *lot* of commo gear designed/built from the late 50's -> the '70s, and they're still using crypto gear that I was trained on in the late 80s... and if I could pass messages over 40Mhz FM with the little [unnamed computer -- If I told you, I'd have to kill you... ;-) ] beastie, I could prolly get it connected to the Internet *somehow*... ;-) Granted, you couldn't *read* the messages; they're encrypted, after all... And when I worked at EDS back in '89, and we had *lots* of big-iron capable of 100+MIPS (insane, back then... My shiny new '386SX was rated for 2.8 or so) - the gubbermint contracted sites were still working with 2-3 MIPS machines for daily business... and prolly still are. My SWAG's would be that your best bets are: a) the gubbermint, and b) older CNC/punch/cutting machines -- I still get a few calls to work on computerized CNCs & Punches which were built back in the late '70s, and I'm in a small town... there's prolly still quite a few of 'em around being useful... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 11 00:41:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: [Cascade-SC] Organizing Stereoptigraph cards In-Reply-To: References: <20030510.131549.-1790007.35.obiedodi@juno.com> Message-ID: OK, I officially hate the latest version of Eudora, I've no idea how on earth CLASSICCMP got CC'd on this. In case anyone is wondering, it's a discussion on organizing 3D Photograph's. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Sun May 11 01:15:00 2003 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 References: <20030511034042.GF94230@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <000d01c31771$fab33e20$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EBDEA6A.2010806@yahoo.com> TeoZ wrote: >...snip...snip...snip... > >Dont forget >everything built in the 50's and 60's was built using analog controls along >with relay logic and pneumatics. > Really... Are you sure? Have any data to back this up? >People went to the moon on simple >technology built using sliderules. > Hmmm. In the case of the "went to the moon" at least all the data I could find in ten minutes on the internet show this false (I knew this, but wanted data -- always best to do a quick google before you say something in _this_ forum...) -- the spacecraft had computers (these are still occasional converstions on this list about the apollo compters) and the ground control system was one of the largest operating computer systems at the time... From a nasa site: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/computers/Ch8-3.html and plenty more from the same location.... It would also seem pretty clear that most of the aerospace manufacturers at the time had large computer systems in use at that time. The slide rule comment is a little deceptive -- of course everyone used slide rules -- that was the only choice for scratch computations at the time. It would be a little like saying today that "every computer built in 2003 was done by people using handheld calculators"; of course, this is true to the extent that when I need to do a calculation, I use a hand-held calculator... But a lot of other computer tools are also used to build a computer in todays technology... And the same thing was true in the 60s, where structural analysis was done on large computer systems (large capablility at the time, and physically large also -- of course, I don't really need to say that in this forum...) And, of course, this is at least on topic, as we are really discussing classic computers :-) Bill McDermith BTW: Is a slide rule considered a "Classic Computer"? Is there still a forum around about these? I saw that there are still a few sites around selling them.... From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 11 01:26:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 2003, chris wrote: > Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. A computer is a computer whether it has an on/off switch, is sitting on your lap, or whizzing through space a billion miles away. > However, I WOULD consider any original ground based systems that are > still in use listening for data from Voyager to be valid. At least they > are still serving a purpose even if they aren't getting any data. I am inclined to believe there may still be some ground systems for the Space Shuttle program that are run on 8080 based machines. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From oldcomp at cox.net Sun May 11 03:12:00 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030511011310.024eeec8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3EBE0531.8070307@cox.net> Roger "Merch" Merchberger wrote: > tree falls in the woods, and no-one is around to hear it, does it > make a _sound_. Sound is merely a disturbance in a medium (in this > instance, air) within an audible range. The fact that the tree > disturbed the medium is all that matters, so the answer is "yes..." Yes, but do you know what the definition of the word "is" is? :o) > > the gubbermint contracted sites were still working with 2-3 MIPS > machines for daily business... and prolly still are. > I worked as a contractor for the U.S. Forest Service up until August of 2000, they were still regularly using tube based radio equipment built in the early to mid 1960's! I don't recall the model or make of computer used, but the last time I heard, our national airline radar system was still using tubes in the mainframe computers! The scandal had something to do with the millions of dollars spent to improve the system, that never actually does. Tubes were being ordered from Russia to meet the demand as the required tubes were no longer made in America. Anyone know more facts about that? I seem to remember the mainframes being IBM? -Bryan From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 11 04:05:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: StorageWorks question" (May 10, 19:20) References: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10305111003.ZM21240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 10, 19:20, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I have a StorageWorks unit that's surplus to requirements. It's a > >floor-standing box, complete with the doors and keys, 2 PSUs, and some > >"innards". Can anyone tell me if all thse bits belong in the same > >unit? > > > >2 x SWXBP power supply > > Unless the HSD10 is pulling a LOT of power, you should be able > to get by using just one of these, while having two gives you > redundant power, I prefer to have the slot open for another device. I'm fairly sure it was set up that way to have redundant power (from two different sources). > >1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) > > As mentioned, it lets you use SCSI devices on a MicroVAX with DSSI. It has three connectors on the front; two 50-pin high-density D-connectors (like SCSI-2 conectors) and an RJ11. I assume those 50-way connectors are DSSI, and the RJ11 is for a terminal? > >1 x 70-32155-01 8-bit interface (SCSI? or what?) > > Does this plug into the end opposite the powersupplies? It > sounds like you've got a BA356 shelf. If so, I'm envious, > I've only got BA350's, the BA356 supports both 8-bit and > 16-bit interface modules. Oh, yes, if we're talking about > the same thing, it's SCSI. It's a High Density 50-pin > connector, right? Yes, it is. Two of them, in fact. The module is in the top, inserted from the front, same as everything else. Ah, I guess you're thinking in terms of a horizontal rack-mounted unit (the other one that the VAXes had was mounted like that); this unit has the extra pieces for floor mounting and (AFAIK) doesn't have the brackets for rack mounting. Does it make sense to have both the 70-32155-01 SCSI interface and the HSD10-AA DSSI/SCSI unit in the same shelf? > >1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk > > RZ29B-VW? RZ29B-VA, it says on the outside. > >1 x TLZ06 DDS tape drive > > You have an SBB, with a TLZ06 in it? Now I'm even greener with > envy! I've only got disks. Plus, I don't have any of the nice > enclosed models with doors. > > >I should have mentioned it's a BA35X-MD box. > > These are actually the fans on the back of the shelf. The > good news is they're the good dual-speed ones that support > the 7200RPM drives. Ok, so I shouldn't just dump it, then ;-) To be honest, though, I don't think I want to keep it. I have two MicroVAXes, a uVAX-II in a BA23, and a uVAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A, on the label on the back). Both have internal drives. I'm not likely to use either for anything serious, and I need the space the StorageWorks unit is occupying. > >It came wih a MicroVAX some time ago, but I've never used it. Anybody > >want it, for a suitably low price? > > You might just want to keep it... I really like using StorageWorks on my VMS systems. I've got a BA350 attached to the PWS 433au I use as a server via a Narrow SCSI card. > > If you want, I should be able to dig up all the manuals on this, as I think I've got PDF's of them. I'll have another look round, where it came from. They may still be there. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 11 04:49:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: IBM Punch Card cabinets In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "IBM Punch Card cabinets" (May 10, 19:00) References: Message-ID: <10305111047.ZM21274@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 10, 19:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Strange question, how deep are the drawers in punch card cabinets, > the tops are pretty much flush with the card aren't they? I'm > assuming I couldn't be lucky enough for them to be another 0.25-1 > inch deeper. Yes, they're not much bigger than they need to be, but maybe deep enough for your purpose. I have drawers from two cabinets, both measure internal: 16 1/4" x 7 5/8" x 3 11/16" external: 17 5/8" x 7 11/16" x 3 3/4" There's a vertical flange sticking up at one or sometimes both ends, to stop the drawer being accidentally slid right out. Iincluding that, the overall external height is 4 1/16", but the aperture in the cabinet will be just over 3 3/4". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 11 08:18:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: 11/21 plus, falcon, m7676 In-Reply-To: <10305110032.ZM20900@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000f01c317bf$8fbd8320$cb87fe3e@athlon> > It probably won't help as the Falcon and Falcon PLUS are very > different boards. OK - I still have the SCB02 user guide, which was asked for (I was just hoping that an online one was available and slipped up while reading Manx's output). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cheri-post at web.de Sun May 11 10:03:00 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Additional question: Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? What about TCP/IP ? Pierre cctech@classiccmp.org schrieb am 10.05.03 21:41:39: > > Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11. > > > On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 14:14, UnRooster wrote: > > What about Commodore 64? > > > > http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/index.html > > > > > > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > > >operational use > > > > > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet > > > > > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages > > >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, > > >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know > > >if there was something older) > -- > Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: > skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 > Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS > Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's > -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Fur 92 EUR mit Lufthansa quer durch Deutschland fliegen. Jetzt online den Fruhbucher-Tarif buchen unter http://img.web.de/lh/lhspecial2.html From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 11 10:51:01 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: 11/21 plus, falcon, m7676 Message-ID: <000f01c317bf$8fbd8320$cb87fe3e@athlon> > It probably won't help as the Falcon and Falcon PLUS are very > different boards. OK - I still have the SCB02 user guide, which was asked for (I was just hoping that an online one was available and slipped up while reading Manx's output). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org [demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From anheier at owt.com Sun May 11 11:06:00 2003 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm & Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: ISA hardcard 40 available Message-ID: The buyer never came through and I still have a Plus Hardcard40 ISA card available. $5 plus shipping. Thanks Norm From skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org Sun May 11 11:11:01 2003 From: skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org (Barry Skidmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <1052669393.12311.5.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> I think the answer is yes to both questions if it is running Unix (BSD), but no if it is running RT-11. On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 10:01, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Additional question: > Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? > What about TCP/IP ? > > Pierre > > > > > > cctech@classiccmp.org schrieb am 10.05.03 21:41:39: > > > > Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11. > > > > > > On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 14:14, UnRooster wrote: > > > What about Commodore 64? > > > > > > http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/index.html > > > > > > > > > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > > > >operational use > > > > > > > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet > > > > > > > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages > > > >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, > > > >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know > > > >if there was something older) > > -- > > Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: > > skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 > > Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS > > Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's > > -- > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > Fur 92 EUR mit Lufthansa quer durch Deutschland fliegen. Jetzt online > den Fruhbucher-Tarif buchen unter http://img.web.de/lh/lhspecial2.html -- Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's -- From a.krennmair at aon.at Sun May 11 11:42:01 2003 From: a.krennmair at aon.at (Andreas Krennmair) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <20030511164113.GA2339@aon.at> * Pierre Gebhardt [03-05-11 16:54]: > Additional question: > Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? > What about TCP/IP ? simh is able to simulate some kind of network adapter for the PDP-11, so hardware exists to connect a PDP-11 to the internet. In fact, I already had 2.11BSD running inside simh, downloading software via FTP. regards, ak -- What makes you think that I'm not a chatbot? From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 11 11:43:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: >Was the pun intended? The term is "moot point" -- to be "mute" is to be >unable to speak/make sounds, Spelling error on my part, but it did make for an interesting pun. >Define "Normal" -- If you can't define "normal" to us, and can accept or >dismiss anything any way you like, then we cannot give you a logical answer >to your original question and the entire discussion up to this point is >moot. I can't define Normal. I'm intested in hearing all opinions of what is the oldest comptuer still in "normal" use. From there I'll make my own personal decision of which I feel provides the best answer. That doesn't mean anyone else has to consider my choice to be valid. >So, does that leave the gubbermint out? I'd accept the government, and actually I rather expected the answer to be some government system. >My SWAG's would be that your best bets are: a) the gubbermint, and b) older >CNC/punch/cutting machines That was the other place I figured the best answer might turn up. Some kind of factory automated system that still uses its orginal systems simply because its working so has no reason to be replaced. -chris From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Sun May 11 12:00:00 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The whole oldest computer on the net thread reminded me of a story a friend told me. THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER He was called in to perform some maintenance on a Novell server. All the workstations in the office had various partitions of it mounted and they'd been using it for years. So Gary, my friend, goes to sit at the console. "Where is it?", he asks the baffled staff. "Uh...we don't know." Unbelieving, he seeks to verify that nobody in the company actually knows where the server is. Apparently, they'd hired a firm that had since gone out of business to install and maintain it. Nobody else ever touched it. So Gary goes into the telephone room where all the ethernet terminates and the server would logically be. This is old 10base2 coax. But when he looks where the coax should terminate, it doesn't. It continues THROUGH the wall, down in a tight little hole in the corner. So, he thinks, it must be in the room on the other side. Ah ha! He goes to the other side...no cable, no server. So, scratching his head, he goes into the adjacent rooms. Same story. He goes back in to the telephone room, sees the cable go under the wall and then it occurs to him. Something about the distances doesn't add up. He paces off the distance between the wall on the telephone room side and the wall on the other side and finds that four feet is missing. Finding no niches in the adjacent rooms he asks why this might be. "We did some construction a couple years ago to change around some of the offices." The upshot is that the builders had walled the server into a little 4 foot room with no doors and nobody had noticed for TWO YEARS. Says something about the reliability of Novell servers, I suppose. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 11 12:05:07 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ISTR that the FAA in Los Angeles still had some Bendix digital stuff from the late 50s/early 60s in daily use - part of the LA radar complex. There were a couple of articles in the Times about how the techs who knew how to keep the old stuff going were ready to retire - and the difficutly of finding some of the tubes. I don't know if that system has been upgraded by niw - this was ten or so years ago I think I read that. It would certainly qualify... Cheers John From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Sun May 11 12:11:01 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Commodore Serial Cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings, I'm looking for a couple surplus commodore serial cables (the ones with the round din connectors on either end) that I can buy for a reasonable price. If anyone has them, please email me with price. I need 2 to 4 of them and will, of course, pay shipping. (Of course, I could build them but my homemade cables never seem to work as well as the factory made ones. =-) Thanks. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 11 12:26:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers References: Message-ID: <007601c317e1$465100a0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> That or the hardware the server was running on. Would hate to see the cobwebs and dust buildup over a few years in a place like that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "VaxCat" To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 12:55 PM Subject: Disappearing Servers > The whole oldest computer on the net thread reminded me of a story > a friend told me. > > THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER > > He was called in to perform some maintenance on a Novell server. > > All the workstations in the office had various partitions of it > mounted and they'd been using it for years. > > So Gary, my friend, goes to sit at the console. "Where is it?", > he asks the baffled staff. > > "Uh...we don't know." > > Unbelieving, he seeks to verify that nobody in the company actually > knows where the server is. Apparently, they'd hired a firm that had > since gone out of business to install and maintain it. Nobody else > ever touched it. > > So Gary goes into the telephone room where all the ethernet terminates > and the server would logically be. This is old 10base2 coax. But when > he looks where the coax should terminate, it doesn't. It continues > THROUGH the wall, down in a tight little hole in the corner. > > So, he thinks, it must be in the room on the other side. Ah ha! He > goes to the other side...no cable, no server. So, scratching his head, > he goes into the adjacent rooms. Same story. > > He goes back in to the telephone room, sees the cable go under the > wall and then it occurs to him. Something about the distances doesn't > add up. He paces off the distance between the wall on the telephone > room side and the wall on the other side and finds that four feet is > missing. Finding no niches in the adjacent rooms he asks why this > might be. > > "We did some construction a couple years ago to change around some of > the offices." > > The upshot is that the builders had walled the server into a little 4 > foot room with no doors and nobody had noticed for TWO YEARS. > > Says something about the reliability of Novell servers, I suppose. > > Anthony Clifton > Des Moines, Iowa From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 11 12:28:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Barry Skidmore "Re: RE: Oldest computer still in current use" (May 11, 11:09) References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> <1052669393.12311.5.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> Message-ID: <10305111824.ZM21499@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 11, 11:09, Barry Skidmore wrote: > I think the answer is yes to both questions if it is running Unix (BSD), > but no if it is running RT-11. Then go and look up "fuzzball" :-) (hint: try http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/ ) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bqt at update.uu.se Sun May 11 12:29:01 2003 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <20030511170006.37719.72792.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11. > > Doesn't someone have a PDP-8/e hooked up to the Internet in such a manner that visitors to his site can run stuff on it? crap-1.update.uu.se is a PDP-8/I. It's unfortunately offline for now... > > > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > > > >operational use > > Define what you mean by "Oldest Computer or Computer System". That can > figure heavily into the correct answer. After all, systems that you > might not consider still under production, such as the PDP-10 or PDP-11 > are to at least a certain extent (and I don't mean emulation). Also, if > emulation counts, that might skew the answer as well. Remember > emulation has been used for production systems for a *LONG* time. PDP-11 is still in production. I know a few companies that make and sell new PDP-11 systems. > There are still PDP-8's, PDP-10's and PDP-11's in daily use. I'm sure > there are at least a couple older ones out there. Just look for > industrial and scientific applications. True. > > > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet > > Well, various platforms that were connected to Arpanet are still being used. > > > > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages > >> >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, > >> >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know > >> >if there was something older) > > I'm aware of systems running TOPS-20 and RT-11 serving web pages. Me too, such as shop-pdp.kent.edu... Oh, and anyone who thinks anything with a microprocessor in it has a chance in this competition can walk out the door now. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 11 12:46:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: <10305111003.ZM21240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10305102000.ZM20715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <10305111003.ZM21240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > >1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) > > >> As mentioned, it lets you use SCSI devices on a MicroVAX with DSSI. > >It has three connectors on the front; two 50-pin high-density >D-connectors (like SCSI-2 conectors) and an RJ11. I assume those >50-way connectors are DSSI, and the RJ11 is for a terminal? I've never actually seen one, so without looking up the manual, I'm not sure. There are a couple poeple on the list here that I think have them, to bad they've not commented. >Yes, it is. Two of them, in fact. The module is in the top, inserted >from the front, same as everything else. Ah, I guess you're thinking >in terms of a horizontal rack-mounted unit (the other one that the >VAXes had was mounted like that); this unit has the extra pieces for >floor mounting and (AFAIK) doesn't have the brackets for rack mounting. > >Does it make sense to have both the 70-32155-01 SCSI interface and the >HSD10-AA DSSI/SCSI unit in the same shelf? I'm wonderind if the HSD10 needs to be cabled to it, or if it is not used. There is a third possibility, the shelf might be split into two segments, one acting as a DSSI device and one acting as Narrow SCSI > > >1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk > > >> RZ29B-VW? > >RZ29B-VA, it says on the outside. OK, you've got a Narrow 4.3GB disk, not wide. The BA356 shelf, which is what I'm sure you've got based on the 8-bit personality module, can use either Narrow or Wide devices. The BA350 doesn't use personality modules. > > These are actually the fans on the back of the shelf. The > > good news is they're the good dual-speed ones that support > > the 7200RPM drives. > >Ok, so I shouldn't just dump it, then ;-) No. If you weren't on the other side of the pond, I'd offer you something for it, but I fear what just shipping on the everything would be, even if the powersupplies and disks were left out! >To be honest, though, I don't think I want to keep it. I have two >MicroVAXes, a uVAX-II in a BA23, and a uVAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A, on the >label on the back). Both have internal drives. I'm not likely to use >either for anything serious, and I need the space the StorageWorks unit >is occupying. If you got the cabling sorted out, it would be an excellent 2nd disk and backup device for the 3100 (minus the DSSI converter). Actually if you pulled the DSSI converter it should work on one of your other systems such as your SGI Workstation. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbg at TheWorld.com Sun May 11 12:47:00 2003 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:33 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <200305111745.NAA3856058@shell.TheWorld.com> >I think the answer is yes to both questions if it is running Unix (BSD), >but no if it is running RT-11. The answer is yes to both even for RT.. there is a TCP/IP stack for RT which was submitted to DECUS. I seem to remember 110939 as the package number. There are also third-party TCP/IP stacks for RT (and the other pdp-11 OSes) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world dot std dot com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje dot com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc | | | 100 Apollo Dr. | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 11 12:57:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de>; from cheri-post@web.de on Sun, May 11, 2003 at 17:01:36 CEST References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <20030511180551.K206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.11 17:01 Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? > What about TCP/IP ? ??? Sure! I have a PDP-11/73 with 2.11BSD UNIX. This machine is capable of all the standard TCP/IP servives like telnet, ftp, smtp, ntp, ... I don't know about other PDP-11 OSes, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is DECnet support. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rdd at rddavis.org Sun May 11 13:15:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030511181345.GB99261@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe chris, from writings of Sun, May 11, 2003 at 12:41:27PM -0400: > I can't define Normal. I'm intested in hearing all opinions of what is > the oldest comptuer still in "normal" use. From there I'll make my own There is no such thing as normal. "Normal" is, quite simply, a bogus concept originated by conformists in their attempts to stiffle individuality. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jrasite at eoni.com Sun May 11 13:40:00 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Lost Server References: <20030511181345.GB99261@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3EBE98D5.8040404@eoni.com> Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 14:20:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <3EBDEA6A.2010806@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, Bill McDermith wrote: > > People went to the moon on simple > > technology built using sliderules. > Hmmm. In the case of the "went to the moon" at least all the data I > could find in ten minutes > on the internet show this false (I knew this, but wanted data -- always > best to do a quick > google before you say something in _this_ forum...) -- the spacecraft > had computers (these > are still occasional converstions on this list about the apollo > compters) and the ground control > system was one of the largest operating computer systems at the time... > From a nasa site: > http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/computers/Ch8-3.html > and plenty more from the same location.... I was working at NASA at the time (GSFC bldg 26, National Space Sciences Data Center). We were NOT part of the moon mission, although we occasionally shared 360-9x access with them. FORTRAN. We used punch cards. a LOT. And we used a LOT of tapes. We used a 360-30 for I/O to a 7094. And we used selectric terminals with a time-sharing service for APL. We used slide rules a bit. But we had a calculator! It had a 5? inch CRT, and was on a typewriter cart, to let a lot of people share it. In another job (environmental systems analysis) in early 1972, before HP and TI were out, I used a 4 function "pocket" (BIG pocket!) calculator. I was listed in contract bids as "head of computer systems", because the calculator was kept in my desk drawer and because I did some miscellaneous FORTRAN programming. > BTW: Is a slide rule considered a "Classic Computer"? Is there still a > forum around about these? What IS the definition being applied? What grounds are being used to exclude an abacus? I would guess that there are many that are still in use for HUNDREDS of years. BTW: punch cards? I have heard (unsubstantiated) that there are some ancient Jacquard punch card looms still in active use. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 14:47:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: If the V_yger computer blue screens, ... (was: Oldest computer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030511011310.024eeec8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > >If it is running ONLY because no one knows its running AND no one knows > >it exists... then its a mute point. If a tree falls in the woods... > ^^^^^^^^^^ & ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Sun, 11 May 2003, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Was the pun intended? The term is "moot point" -- to be "mute" is to be > unable to speak/make sounds, which does tie into the original quote, which > IIRC is "If a tree falls in the woods, and no-one is around to hear it, > does it make a _sound_. Sound is merely a disturbance in a medium (in this > instance, air) within an audible range. The fact that the tree disturbed "audible range"?? WHOSE audible range?? Yours? Mine? My dog? a bat? > the medium is all that matters, so the answer is "yes..." > ... Which is why I had a notebook in college which had a much more > thought-provoking quote: "If a tree falls in the woods, and no-one is > around to hear it, does anybody give a shit?" ;-) My variation of that is: "If a tree falls in the Gallaudet campus, does it make a sound?" (admittedly meaningless for those unfamiliar) I agree with YOUR definition of what "sound" is. BUT,... there are some definitions extant that define sound in terms of perception. Thus, the "great philosophical question" devolves to NOTHING more than a question of which definition of "sound" is used. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary Sound \Sound\, n. [OE. soun, OF. son, sun, F. son, fr. L. sonus akin to Skr. svana sound, svan to sound, and perh. to E. swan. Cf. Assonant, Consonant, Person, Sonata, Sonnet, Sonorous, Swan.] 1. The peceived object occasioned by the impulse or vibration of a material substance affecting the ear; a sensation or perception of the mind received through the ear, and produced by the impulse or vibration of the air or other medium with which the ear is in contact; the effect of an impression made on the organs of hearing by an impulse or vibration of the air caused by a collision of bodies, or by other means; noise; report; as, the sound of a drum; the sound of the human voice; a horrid sound; a charming sound; a sharp, high, or shrill sound. The warlike sound Of trumpets loud and clarions. --Milton. 2. The occasion of sound; the impulse or vibration which would occasion sound to a percipient if present with unimpaired; hence, the theory of vibrations in elastic media such cause sound; as, a treatise on sound. Note: In this sense, sounds are spoken of as audible and inaudible. 3. Noise without signification; empty noise; noise and nothing else. Sense and not sound . . . must be the principle. --Locke. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 15:23:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <20030511034042.GF94230@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: > Yet - if every digital device were to cease working tomorrow - just how > close to the Stone Age do ya think we'd sink? How close?? We're THERE!! To the "average" member of our society, anything more complicated than a flashlight ("torch" for Brits) is incomprehensible MAGIC. Hell, most don't understand a flashlight. Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure (in the wilderness), how many people would be capable of building/making ANYTHING? Other than Tony, could you make a battery? a bulb? Do you really know how to extract the materials needed from the ground? Who said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ? Who added "..., or a rigged demonstration" ? (Hint: doesn't anybody ever change the SUBJECT line?) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 11 15:31:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <200305111745.NAA3856058@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> <200305111745.NAA3856058@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: > >I think the answer is yes to both questions if it is running Unix (BSD), >>but no if it is running RT-11. > >The answer is yes to both even for RT.. there is a TCP/IP stack >for RT which was submitted to DECUS. I seem to remember 110939 >as the package number. There are also third-party TCP/IP >stacks for RT (and the other pdp-11 OSes) I assume you're talking about Alan Baldwin's stack, it works great! I've only used it for Telnet and FTP, but as I recall it even supports email, and web. In fact it can be found at shop-pdp.kent.edu, and that's what shop-pdp.kent.edu is running. For the person asking about connecting a PDP-11 to the net: There is TCPware for RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, MicroRSX, and I believe RT-11, TSX+, IAS, and of course VMS/MicroVMS. Unfortunatly to the best of my knowledge there has never been a TCP stack for RSTS/E. ISTR, that someone else made a commercial stack, but I'm not sure who or what they supported. Also, Johnny Billquist has an unreleased partially done stack for RSX-11M+. Of course there was DECnet support for all of the OS's that I mention above, as well as TOPS-10, TOPS-20, and at least a couple other OS's (apparently there was support somehow for the PDP-8, and I think the PDP-15). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 15:38:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: stone age (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <000d01c31771$fab33e20$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > No one takes notice because modern technology is built on millions of small > advances from little know people just doing their job. Some advances like > . . . > If every digital device stopped working tomorrow it would take a few years > to rebuild those devices, and efficencies would drop in quite a bit of A few years? You might think that you know enough physics to replicate a lot of the millions of small advances of the industrial age, but do you have what it takes to move from the stone age to the bronze age? or the iron age? From cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net Sun May 11 15:44:01 2003 From: cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052685748.11480.8.camel@www.4mcnabb.net> On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 16:22, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure (in the wilderness), how > many people would be capable of building/making ANYTHING? Other than > Tony, could you make a battery? a bulb? Do you really know how to extract > the materials needed from the ground? I can think of two people off the top of my head - Captain Kirk when fighting the Zorn Captain, and McGuyver in just about any episode. Seriously, I agree that most people would not survive for long in the woods. There are a few of us, though, who happen to relish spending a few weeks a year in wilderness surviving on our own. Given a few basic tools (knife) it would be relatively trivial to make something like a crystal radio. You would need to find copper ore (look for rocks that have a bluish-green tint) and some galena. You would then need to light a fire and get it hot enough to smelt the ore to make copper. Beat the copper into a long enough wire with a rock, then wind it into a tuning coil. Use the piece of galena and the point of your knife as the diode. You would also need to find some iron ore to make an electro-magnet and a thin metal diaphram for use as a speaker. Easy as pie. -- Christopher L McNabb Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb@4mcnabb.net Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.1356N 80.4272N GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD From mranalog at attbi.com Sun May 11 15:59:01 2003 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <3EBEBE22.C0828322@attbi.com> > >If somebody fires up an old 50's analog computer in a museum just to see if > >it still kicks is it really "in use"? > > No, because my ORIGINAL question was, what is the oldest computer still > in normal use. So for MY question, that is, the answer I am looking > for.... I will only consider a computer that was put into service when it > was reasonably new, and is still functioning today. I will also accept an > old computer that was put back into service either as a replacement for > one the died, or because it was needed to do a job, and it was the best > option for the job. Well to fit such restrictive criteria it would have to be: Digital computer - abacus - 4000 years without a service pack or patch to the OS. Analog computer - Stonehenge - It has lost most of its functionality but it is still in use. ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Sun May 11 16:06:01 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Lost Server In-Reply-To: <3EBE98D5.8040404@eoni.com> References: <20030511181345.GB99261@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3EBE98D5.8040404@eoni.com> Message-ID: Oddly, however, Gary told me the story in 1999 or 2000. So I wonder if it's a coincidence. Either that or my memory is inaccurate and he pulled a fast one on me. Ah well. =-) Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa > > >Jim From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 11 17:03:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c31808$fb608e80$cb87fe3e@athlon> > flashlight. Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure > (in the wilderness), how many people would be capable of > building/making ANYTHING? Other than Tony, could you make a > battery? a bulb? I'd have to think for a bulb. I'd have plenty of time while growing the spuds for a battery though :-) > Do you really know how to extract the > materials needed from the ground? The best way is to get someone else to do the digging. > Who said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is > indistinguishable from magic." ? That was my thesis, thank you for reading it. Arthur C Clarke also said it, possibly a little earlier (but once I get bulb and battery sorted, I'm moving straight onto the time machine and the subsequent law suit :-)) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From vaxzilla at jarai.org Sun May 11 17:15:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Additional question: > Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? > What about TCP/IP ? Starting in the early 1980s, a lot of the development of TCP/IP was done using PDP-11 based systems running David Mills' Fuzzball software. The Fuzzballs also played a very prominent roll in the NSFnet backbone. There's also the PDP-11 based 2BSD distribution which supports TCP/IP networking on a variety of PDP-11 models. The latest release, 2.11BSD, supports systems as old as the PDP-11/70 model, which was first introduced in early 1975. I don't know if there are TCP/IP stacks available for OSes like RSX-11 or RSTS-11, which might run on some of the older PDP-11s. I do see that there's one for RT-11, but it only supports the Q-bus DEQNA ethernet module which would have to be used with more recent systems (late 70s through 1980s). Were there support for the Unibus DEUNA adapter, you could probably run it on something like an 11/45 from 1972. There are also the original Arpanet IMPs, based on the Honeywell H516 (the systems were introduced the mid to late 1960s), but they only ran the Arpanet precursor to TCP/IP. -brian. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun May 11 17:53:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <000501c31808$fb608e80$cb87fe3e@athlon> Message-ID: <20030511225212.60906.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Antonio Carlini wrote: > > flashlight. Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure > > (in the wilderness), how many people would be capable of > > building/making ANYTHING? Other than Tony, could you make a > > battery? a bulb? > > I'd have to think for a bulb. I'd have plenty of time > while growing the spuds for a battery though :-) Tungsten filaments would be tough, but carbon works fine for a short time. Remember, Edison did not *invent* the lightbulb, he improved it to the point of practical manufacturability. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sun May 11 17:59:00 2003 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, VaxCat wrote: > The whole oldest computer on the net thread reminded me of a story > a friend told me. > THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER I've seen this before; I wonder about its authenticity - but there's no reason to jump to any conclusions... On the prowl for computers at home (Wellington, New Zealand) I had greased my way into a tour around a storage room of a banking centre. I was greatly excited to discover a frightfully large IBM (if memory serves, an S/390) with its face turned to the wall. On enquiry of possibility of my relieving them of this waste of storage space the chap told me that he wasn't sure why I'd want a water heater. Unfortunately, after explaining to the fellow why it was most definately not a water heater, the chances of picking it up become very remote. They never explained to me why they'd put the machine in storage either :/ JP From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 18:12:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <000501c31808$fb608e80$cb87fe3e@athlon> Message-ID: > > flashlight. Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure > > (in the wilderness), how many people would be capable of > > building/making ANYTHING? Other than Tony, could you make a > > battery? a bulb? On Sun, 11 May 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I'd have to think for a bulb. I'd have plenty of time > while growing the spuds for a battery though :-) A bulb is not so hard. There are a lot of filaments that would work. The hard part is creating one that works well enough. OK, you can get the voltage that you need by wiring your spuds in series, and the amperage by multiples in parallel. For anybody who has ever ACTUALLY produced electricity with a potato, how many would you need to light an incandescent flashlight bulb? and how close to the efficiency of a commercial bulb can you get with a homemade one? Will your Maglite have casters? > earlier (but once I get bulb and battery sorted, I'm > moving straight onto the time machine and the subsequent > law suit :-)) That will take a lot of spuds. (The "rigged demonstration" addendum was, of course, by Morrow) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 18:41:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 11, 3 04:10:47 pm Message-ID: > OK, you can get the voltage that you need by wiring your spuds in series, > and the amperage by multiples in parallel. For anybody who has ever > ACTUALLY produced electricity with a potato, how many would you need to > light an incandescent flashlight bulb? and how close to the efficiency of A _lot_... A couple of years back, HPCC (UK HP user club) had a Newton-themed issue in December (Newtonsday == December 25th, of course :-)). As everybody knows the story of Newton and the apple, I decided to try to run a calculator off a simple cell made from said fruit. So I stuck a galvanised nail and a piece of copper into an apple. I think I got about 0.8V and a short-circuit current of 500uA. This was enough to run a small 4-function LCD calculator... But to run a small bulb you'd need 1.5V (so 2 cells in series) and perhaps 500mA (so 1000 branches in parallel). So around 2000 apples... I guess potatoes are similar. > a commercial bulb can you get with a homemade one? My guess is you'd have to run the filament cooler in the home-made bulb (lower melting point filament wire, and a poorer vacuum). That would reduce the efficiency. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 18:42:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 11, 3 01:22:05 pm Message-ID: > Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure (in the wilderness), how > many people would be capable of building/making ANYTHING? Other than What, you mean I have to extract metals from their ores, make simple hand tools, etc? Doesn't sound totally impossible... > Tony, could you make a battery? a bulb? Do you really know how to extract > the materials needed from the ground? Well, I'm glad you have confidence in me :-). I'm not so sure. I think I could make something that would develop a voltage, but I susepct it would polarise rather quickly... I guess it would depend on just what minerals I could obtain.... MInd you, I suspect that many people couldn't make a simple cell even if put in a reasonably well-stocked laboratory. That I _know_ I can do.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 18:42:07 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <1052685748.11480.8.camel@www.4mcnabb.net> from "Christopher McNabb" at May 11, 3 04:42:28 pm Message-ID: > Given a few basic tools (knife) it would be relatively trivial to make > something like a crystal radio. You would need to find copper ore (look Assuming you're back in the Stone Age, a crystal receiver is proably not the best thing to build. You need to consider the transmitter as well, and a crystal set is only really useful if you have a modulated transmitter. I think I would try to make a coherer (basically a glass (or other isulating) tube containing metal filings, not too tightly packed). That would work well for receiving the signals from a spark transmitter (I am assuming that back in this Stone Age there were no government or internation restrictions on the use of such transmitters ;-)).A spark transmitter could be made using an induction coil (lots of copper wire wound round a bundle of iron wire as the core). There is a book entitled 'Harper's Electricity Book for Boys' published in 1907. I think it's been reprinted fairly recently. Although not quite Stone Age (it assumes you have common hand tools, chemicals, copper wire, etc), it does cover making many electical devices, including primary and secondary cells, induction coils, coherers, bells, resistors, etc. > for rocks that have a bluish-green tint) and some galena. You would Many other substances will work as the diode. I believe that in WW2, prisoners of war used coke (the fuel, not the drug) for this purpose. -tony From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun May 11 19:10:01 2003 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 May 2003 12:18:44 -0700 (PDT) . Message-ID: In message , "Fred Ci sin (XenoSoft)" writes: >What IS the definition being applied? What grounds are being used to >exclude an abacus? I would guess that there are many that are still in >use for HUNDREDS of years. One of my abaci (abacuses?) is still regularly applied once a month to balance my checkbook. It keeps me from getting too rusty. Of course, I don't have any that are themselves hundreds of years old, but the design is still in use. Brian L. Stuart From john.e.buckner at lmco.com Sun May 11 20:00:01 2003 From: john.e.buckner at lmco.com (Buckner, John E) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Hey Bill We hope this message finds you well. It's been almost three years now since we last 'spoke'. Randy Hill managed to get through three more tax seasons thanks in part (mostly) to your help. When we last talked, you had some stuff hanging over your head and we wanted to give you the space you seemed to need. With your notes and the assistance of another technician, we were successful in cobbling together a few more disk drives. Apparently Randy finds himself now with a single 8" drive. He had, at one time, mailed you three of his 'original' drives. Randy would appreciate some status on those three drives. We look forward to hearing back from you Thanks John Buckner PS Saw you and your son in a UMD press clipping. Kids can be a real Joy. Bill Sudbrink, 38, and his 9-year old son Ben had front row seats last night. The Sudbrinks also attended the three previous Physics is Phun events this year. "I'm a computer science major from the class of '88," Bill Sudbrink said. "I came here and I just thought I'd bring my son." From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 11 20:00:38 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: MINC-11 In-Reply-To: <10305062357.ZM17391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Peter Turnbull > Sent: 06 May 2003 23:58 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: MINC-11 > > If anyone in the UK wants a MINC-11, I know where there is one, almost > certainly "free to a good home", and probably with some docs and > software. The catch is that it's in Scotland, and *must* be moved > within a week or so (owner is moving and can't take it with him). > > I'd have it myself, but I have no more room :-( I haven't any more room either.....whereabouts in Scotland is it? cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 11 20:00:46 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: MINC-11 In-Reply-To: <008001c31312$4a332230$0400005a@Josephine> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Cynthia Batchelder > Sent: 05 May 2003 15:26 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: MINC-11 > > > Do you know where I could find technical documentation for the > MINC-11 or MINC-23? Hi Cynthia, I'm pretty sure I've got a full doc set for my MINC, so if there's something Tony hasn't got I might have it here. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From jforbes2 at mindspring.com Sun May 11 20:00:53 2003 From: jforbes2 at mindspring.com (J Forbes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: hotrod Kaypro acquisition & problem Message-ID: <3EBBA733.3000408@mindspring.com> > So that leaves the question: how to get a kaypro II disk image? > > I have a PC (P-166) lying around that I added a 5.25" drive to for the > purpose of reading some trs-80 disks. I'm not sure of the drive density > at the moment; that was a while back. What density drive should I use > in my PC? What software it recommended for making a bootable disk? > Short of bothering the tireless Don Maslin, are there any disk images > available online that could help me out? Should I scratch any plans to > recover the CP/M 2.2 image on the A drive and instead just attempt to Sounds like you need to bother the tireless Don Maslin....with whatever ROM info you have. Most likely, you won't end up with a normal Kaypro II disk image! From what I can make of the available info, you can use the Sydek program 22DISK to transfer files from Kaypro disks to MS-DOS files and vice-versa, but it won't work to make a bootable disk. It requires the use of a 360k disk drive for best results--as 1.2M drives have different size heads and record at different levels. I've had good luck using a 386 PC with a 360k drive and wfwg 3.11 to read and write Kaypro floppies and talk over my lan to get files to/from the internet. One of the roughly ten Kaypros I've owned had the fan mod; a couple had OEM fans, but none have had the Advent rom; nor have any had hard drives added (the K10 I have now has a working hard drive, although the original files are long gone...and it takes some creative "laying on of hands" to get the drive spinning after it's been sitting awhile) Sounds like a fun machine! -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 From ljw at formula1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 20:01:00 2003 From: ljw at formula1.demon.co.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report Message-ID: <1052610903.7657.74.camel@formula1.demon.co.uk> I spent last weekend at the European Vintage Computer Fair (www.vcfe.org) in Munich. I didn't take anything along for display myself, but spent the time looking at what the others had brought. I guess my favourites were the CP/M portables, since I haven't played with one for years. Gaby Chaudry (www.gaby.de) had brought along a Kaypro and an Osborne 1. I'm not sure how we ever survived with the tiny screen on the latter. Other highlights: a nice display of disk drive head assemblies, from the huge to the miniature; evolution of the Mac LC (I'm not into these, but it was interesting); an IDE interface for the Z80 (if they ever do an 8080 version I'll take one); lots of old machines doing very impressive things, showing that there is still effort going into to programming and updating. I suppose the thing which came home to me was how there was an explosion of PC design in the late 70s/early 80s before things converged to the IBM/Apple paths. Tours were running to see the Cray-4 & Cyber 960 (www.cray-cyber.org) and I went along for a look. The temperature reminded me of when I had my 360/30 running. These machines are available for remote access, the Cray runs 24 hours a day. I paid a quick visit to Hans Franke's warehouse, I'm sure he has one of everything hiding there somewhere. I haven't seen a SC/MP evaluation board for, well, decades. Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved, and then work out what to do with it. I could store everything I've ever written on an 8-bit computer in a corner of my existing hard drive and not even notice it was there. I've got to dig out all those KCS cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get them transferred. Finally, I visited the Deutsches-Museum in Munich for a final fix of computer stuff (www.deutsches-museum.de/e_index.htm). They have a very good display of calculating and computing machinery, from ancient instruments through Zuse Z3, Univac, IBM360 up to a Cray 1. I have a soft spot for the 360/20, even if it's not quite as good as a /30. Thanks to Hans for all his organisation, and to all the others that made it such a good weekend. I will be back next year, hopefully as an exhibitor. -- Lawrence Wilkinson ljw@formula1.demon.co.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.formula1.demon.co.uk From tuban at cisco.com Sun May 11 20:01:07 2003 From: tuban at cisco.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: SMD drive cables @ hamvention? In-Reply-To: <20030403151915.68168.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1049380551.29415.2.camel@server.smithy.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030506114945.022eb1e0@ubanproductions.com> Hi Ethan, If you are going to the Hamvention, would you please look for a set (or two) of SMD drive cables for me? I won't be able to go this year as work has me out in Boston. I am looking for one or two cable sets, each 10' to 25' in length. They are often made of a twisted pair 60pin ribbon, and a shielded 26pin ribbon, but are sometimes in a round shielded cable as well. I would be willing to pay up to $30 for each pair. You are welcome to make a profit on me if you like, to help offset your trip, etc. I will of course pay for shipping as well. --tnx --tom From rcc.electronic at t-online.de Sun May 11 20:01:14 2003 From: rcc.electronic at t-online.de (RCC Electronics) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: TIL308 Message-ID: <003001c3147e$4a5c65b0$0b01a8c0@Heidrun> RCC Forststr 28 D-90574 Rosstal ++49-9127-951340 fx 951341 rcc.electronic@t-online.de Dear Frank Arnold you have some TIL308 available? Can you sell us up to 20 pcs? Please send an offer Best regards Wolf From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 11 20:01:22 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: TRS80 donation from Seattle In-Reply-To: <200305060159.VAA29670@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Hi folks, I've received this via another mailing list - I'd love the model 12 myself but the shipping will be too much and too risky I think, particularly with what happened to the last Model III I got :) As ever, please reply direct to the original sender. Cheers! >------------------------------------------------------ > I'd like to donate some old Tandy TRS-80 equipment. > I have: > Model III (2 each) > Model 12 > Spare 5-1/4 floppy drive (2 each) > Video Display > Line Printer VI > 3 boxes of manuals binders and programs > John in Seattle *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* : John Wm Sloniker Seattle, WA : : (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 : *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* >------------------------------------------------------ -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org Sun May 11 20:01:59 2003 From: skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org (Barry Skidmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: DEC RL02 -vs- RL02-A In-Reply-To: <20030505183534.GB8752@subatomix.com> References: <1051889832.1783.246.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> <20030505142815.GB8648@subatomix.com> <20030505183534.GB8752@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <1052191047.2679.66.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> On Mon, 2003-05-05 at 13:35, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Monday, May 5, 2003, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > On Friday, May 2, 2003, Barry Skidmore wrote: > > > Could someone tell what the differences are between a DEC RL02 -vs- a > > > RL02-A, or point me to the appropriate web site. > > > > Was there even such a drive? I've never heard of one. > > Note: I'm talking about the 'A' variety above. :-) The following is from varx's web site. I guess I could ask them, but thought someone on this list would have more detailed information. RL02 10 MB, REMOVABLE DISK DRIVE $ 499 RL02-A 10 MB, REMOVABLE DISK DRIVE $ 499 -- Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's -- From barty at mythtech.net Sun May 11 20:02:09 2003 From: barty at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: On another list I am on, we were discussing why DOS is still used today (basic answer, because its working just fine, so why upgrade). The following questions were posed that I don't know the answer to, but someone here might. 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal operational use 2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet 3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know if there was something older) Figured this is the right place to get these questions answered. From sieler at allegro.com Sun May 11 20:02:18 2003 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EBC1561.1353.4F4B076C@localhost> Re: > 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > operational use Someone/group just ran a contest to find out the answer to that last year. I don't recall who/what won, nor if I was "happy" with the result :) A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's the oldest one I know of. If you want mainframes, one of our clients has an HP 3000/70 (dating back to about 1983) still in continual daily use ... not sporadic. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:02:26 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: <20030510191541.GO1445@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 2003, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > 1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) > Sounds like a very nifty device that can turn a (bunch of) SCSI disk(s) > into a (bunch of) DSSI disk(s). I.e. you connect a SCSI disk on one side > and it presents a DSSI disk on a DSSI bus on the other side to a VAX. As > DSSI disks are rare, especially with high capacity, this thing may be of > some value. It also does RAID. Like you can stripe a bunch of SCSI disks into one big DSSI disk or sometihng like that. Peace... Sridhar From josh at becks-online.net Sun May 11 20:02:33 2003 From: josh at becks-online.net (Josh Beck) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: VAXStation 2000 start-up questions Message-ID: I am having the same type of issue. I have a VAXstation 3100 and the Hold Screen, Lock, Compose and Wait lights are all lit. I have tried typing B and B followed by a device at the >>> prompt, but nothing seems to work. Any ideas? I would love to breath new life into this Old VAXstation as a BSD machine. Josh Beck From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:02:41 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <006201c31762$6e65b920$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military > server somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their > equipment out every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other > branches only upgrade after every user who knows how to run the system > is dead/retired. Probably some computer setup for the social security > database, or liscense plate server or other mundane task. > > Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant > controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the > C64. > > What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? > Or is this just personal computers? IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation. I think there's also an S/360/30 doing something. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:02:51 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 2003, chris wrote: > >What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? > >Or is this just personal computers? > > Well, for my question, it doesn't matter if it is personal computer or a > mainframe or whatever. > > Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. Both Voyager spacecraft are still transmitting. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:02:59 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <001401c31773$491fbb00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > Wether its sending back data is mute since its too far away for that > data to get to us. Its missin was to send back data on everything it > found, why would that misson ever end since its still moving through > space? I believe we can still discern Voyager signal. I don't know if we're going anything with it, but I'd imagine it would be useful to have a view from outside the solar system. > I dont understand your logic. The Voyager is ruled out because it might > be too far away to have its valid data (stuff it was made to send back > on purpose) get back to us, but the recieving equipment that will never > get any data back since the signal isnt getting back is still a valid > system? The whole point is if its data isn't being received, it isn't really doing useful work for us. > Would an old obsolete college computer that runs a 300 baud bbs still be > valid if nobody knows about it, or even called it and the college forgot > to shut it down in the last 40 years? No. It isn't doing useful work. > If somebody fires up an old 50's analog computer in a museum just to see > if it still kicks is it really "in use"? Again, it isn't doing useful work. There are '60's era computers still doing real work. I know of at least two which are still performing the same duties for which they were originally installed. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:03:07 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think they're receiving per se, but I don't believe the power systems have come anywhere near their specified maximum lifetimes. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 11 May 2003, chris wrote: > >> Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > >> can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > >> data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. > > > >Both Voyager spacecraft are still transmitting. > > Is NASA still getting data? I assume it will continue to transmit until a > failure of some kind occurs, regardless of if we can hear it. But I > didn't think NASA was still getting data from V_YGER :-) > > -chris > From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:03:18 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <004d01c3177d$b7ab17e0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: There's plenty of stuff that's theoretically out there. It would be neat if the existence of some of it could be proven through the use of a 30+ year old spacecraft. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 11 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/20/tech/main519236.shtml > > Looks like they still get back data (of what I dont know since they passed > the known planets). Voyager will have power untill 2020 or somewhere around > there. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "chris" > To: > Cc: "Classic Computers" > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:08 AM > Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > > > > >> Although I would rule out the Voyager computer for two reasons. 1: You > > >> can't say for sure that it is still running (is it still sending back > > >> data?) and 2: Its only still running because no one shut it off. > > > > > >Both Voyager spacecraft are still transmitting. > > > > Is NASA still getting data? I assume it will continue to transmit until a > > failure of some kind occurs, regardless of if we can hear it. But I > > didn't think NASA was still getting data from V_YGER :-) > > > > -chris > > From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:03:26 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > However, I WOULD consider any original ground based systems that are > > still in use listening for data from Voyager to be valid. At least > > they are still serving a purpose even if they aren't getting any data. > > I am inclined to believe there may still be some ground systems for the > Space Shuttle program that are run on 8080 based machines. IBM still uses 6502-based STDBUS machines for industrial control in fully operational settings. Peace... Sridhar From fdebros at verizon.net Sun May 11 20:03:34 2003 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: <20030511180551.K206647@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <000001c317ed$c295efc0$6401a8c0@fred> I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01 infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an hdd The back panel looks almost like a Vaxstation, except that it has two scsi terminators, 3 mmj plugs called 1, 2 and 3 with the two-way arrows on them (my guess serial i/o) and a db25 instead of the db15. Above the db25 plug is a square containing a broad arrow upward, not the usual printer symbol found on dec eqpt. No mouse and no kbd plug there. But otherwise, the back of the box looks similar: it has the aui and bnc Ethernet connectors, the push-button switch between them and the s3 switch between the check lights and the db25 pin plug. So the s3 switch looking exactly like the one on a Vaxstation 3100 series should do the same: switch from serial display/console to terminal. And the dB25 plug is not a printer out, but functionally similar to the db15 of the vs3100: it carries mouse/kbd and b/w analog signals (single bnc) for a terminal display. No SPX or GPX board in there anyways. Am I right? Long slide for a short question: Is there a DEC cable that fits this db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd plugs - analogous to the vs3100 15-pin plug? Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? All I need is kbd and analog out. That would allow me to fire up this otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax. Or try the new linux vs3100 kernel on a compact system that has the cd built-in..... Fred From robert-e at pacbell.net Sun May 11 20:03:42 2003 From: robert-e at pacbell.net (robert e) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: zenith zfl-184-01 Message-ID: <200305112309.h4BN9hu40346@huey.classiccmp.org> I salvaged this laptop, looks ok, but does'nt have a power supply. Any members of this b-board in the san francisco bay area interested in it?? robert-e@pacbell.net From jss at subatomix.com Sun May 11 20:03:51 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Leaving the Hobby Message-ID: <7924822322.20030512192207@subatomix.com> I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. I will not participate in any discussion of the reason. The decision has been made. What remains is to divest myself of my remaining collection. Part of that process is underway in private dealings with certain individuals. The rest of my collection will be offered in lots on eBay. If you don't like that, tough. I believe that eBay is the best way to get the word out about available items, the best way to deal fairly with prospective takers, and the best way to ensure that the items go to good homes. The first set of auctions will begin in the next few days. I will consider trades for other items; a list of things I am seeking will accompany each auction. I will continue my duties as list moderator for some time. Jay will see to the long-term continuation of list services. -- Jeffrey Sharp From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Sun May 11 20:03:59 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C08988@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> That's a lot - it's not really a vintage machine, nor a particularly rare one. I still use mine as a MC56000 Digital Signal Processing (DSP) testbed. At the time, the £500 I paid for it was a quarter of what I would have had to pay to get a DSP experimentation card for a PC, and since I didn't have a PC at the time it was a bargain. In addition to that, I wrote a series of articles about DSP for the ST Format magazine in the UK, for which they paid me £500, recompensing the computer's cost! Ha! paul -----Original Message----- From: Keys [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: 05 May 2003 05:42 To: cctalk@classiccmp Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay This ST Falcon goes for over $300. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewitem&item=2725518828 From bill at timeguy.com Sun May 11 20:04:08 2003 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Old Cisco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506114009.B25483-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> You could try sending an e-mail to tklink@cxtec.com; they deal with a lot of different equipment. On Tue, 6 May 2003, brian roth wrote: > Does anyone have a source for Old Cisco hardware, IOS, documentation info. > Preferably pre 1990. > > > Brian Roth > Network Administrator > A+ N+ CNA CCNA > Network Services > First Niagara Bank > (716) 625-7500 X2186 > Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com > > > > ***************************************************************************** > ********************* > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. > It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. > If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or > the > sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make > copies. > > ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** > ***************************************************************************** > ********************* > BEGIN:VCARD > VERSION:2.1 > X-GWTYPE:USER > FN:roth, brian > TEL;WORK:2186 > ORG:;Network Services > TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 > EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com > N:roth;brian > X-GWUSERID:1372 > END:VCARD From jrichar9 at bellsouth.net Sun May 11 20:04:19 2003 From: jrichar9 at bellsouth.net (Jim Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: CFX-200 Message-ID: Looking for replacement buttons for Casio CFX-200 Scientific watch. Any idea where I might find them? Thanks! Jim Richardson From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 11 20:04:27 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:34 2005 Subject: Vax 6000-430 upgrade to 6000-620 In-Reply-To: <000301c314d7$33070c90$cb87fe3e@athlon> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > although it might be that the memory I had was too > > small/old to work > > > in the 6000-300 that became a 6000-500. I do recall it was just a > > > matter of pulling the old stuff out and adding the new stuff in. > > > > Ok, that was the bit I needed to know. I was fairly sure it > > was just that, but wanted to be certain I wasn't going to > > blow anything up. If the RAM can't handle the pace I can > > solve that. I was just concerned about the CPU's and the regulator.. > > I've missed the beginning of this thread, but if I got > the gist of it right, my recollection (albeit > fuzzy now) is that the -500 and -600 need the > later memory and won't work with the older memory. > > To be sure, pick up the relevant manuals, which you > can probably find by searching here: > http://vt100.net/manx/ And wasn't there a backplane revision change between the -200 and -400 somewhere? Peace... Sridhar From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 11 20:08:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, chris wrote: > Logic plays no role... this was nothing more than a question I posed > (almost a week ago non the less). Therefore in looking for answers, I can > allow or disallow anything I please for any reason I please. That doesn't > make it valid or invalid for anyone other than me. If others want to tag > onto my 2 questions, then they can use whatever criterea they desire to > see if something is a valid answer for them. Ok, I choose my grandfather's hand then. He can count with it so therefore it's a computer, and he's well over 70. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 11 20:24:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: <1052685748.11480.8.camel@www.4mcnabb.net> Message-ID: On 11 May 2003, Christopher McNabb wrote: > Given a few basic tools (knife) it would be relatively trivial to make > something like a crystal radio. You would need to find copper ore (look > for rocks that have a bluish-green tint) and some galena. You would > then need to light a fire and get it hot enough to smelt the ore to make > copper. Beat the copper into a long enough wire with a rock, then wind > it into a tuning coil. Use the piece of galena and the point of your > knife as the diode. You would also need to find some iron ore to make > an electro-magnet and a thin metal diaphram for use as a speaker. Easy > as pie. Jep, just add electricity and you'll be rockin' out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 11 20:29:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > Assuming you're back in the Stone Age, a crystal receiver is proably not > the best thing to build. You need to consider the transmitter as well, > and a crystal set is only really useful if you have a modulated > transmitter. Ya know, maybe I'm just pessimistic, but if we suddenly got plunged back into the stone age, I think we'd be so occupied trying to find some edible food and fending off the bands of raving marauders and packs of wild animals that we wouldn't have much time for radio entertainment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 11 20:37:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <3EBC1561.1353.4F4B076C@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > > operational use > > Someone/group just ran a contest to find out the answer to that last year. > I don't recall who/what won, nor if I was "happy" with the result :) It was, I believe, Network Magazine, and the winner was an Altair 8800 that some business man used to do his books. Here's another contest I found whilst searching...it's from the U of Iowa: http://www.uiowa.edu/~fyi/issues1999/06111999/computer.html According to this: http://www.cronaca.com/archives/000154.html ...Australia's CSIRAC is still in operation. But this would suggest otherwise: http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/csirac/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 20:38:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2003, chris wrote: > On another list I am on, we were discussing why DOS is still used today > (basic answer, because its working just fine, so why upgrade). > The following questions were posed that I don't know the answer to, but > someone here might. The questions are meaningless without clarification and/or parameters. > 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > operational use You havn't even clarified whether you mean individual machine, or design. Individual machine: stonehenge design: abacus > 2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet Continuously connected? or just the oldest machine that is now connected? For example: if today somebody connects a Univac, would that count? Are you really after which machine is the oldest of those that are connected? or are you REALLY after whgich machine has been connected longest? From skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org Sun May 11 20:39:00 2003 From: skidmore at mail.worldvenue.org (Barry Skidmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> <200305111745.NAA3856058@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <1052703445.12310.9.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 15:29, Zane H. Healy wrote: > For the person asking about connecting a PDP-11 to the net: > There is TCPware for RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, MicroRSX, and I believe RT-11, If you have more information about the availability of TCPware for RT-11, I would be very interested. Thanks, Barry -- Barry Skidmore | Hobbyist Systems: skidmore@worldvenue.org | C64/128 Red Hat Linux 8.0 | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS Postfix 1.1.11 | Mac SE/30's -- From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Sun May 11 21:27:00 2003 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Leaving the Hobby In-Reply-To: <7924822322.20030512192207@subatomix.com> References: <7924822322.20030512192207@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20030512022536.BFAA22F0FF@www.fastmail.fm> Well, that is your decision, & it looks like I can't change your mind. At any rate "Fair winds & following seas" Jeff! On Mon, 12 May 2003 19:22:07 -0500, "Jeffrey Sharp" said: > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. I will not > participate in any discussion of the reason. The decision has been made. > > What remains is to divest myself of my remaining collection. Part of that > process is underway in private dealings with certain individuals. The > rest > of my collection will be offered in lots on eBay. If you don't like that, > tough. I believe that eBay is the best way to get the word out about > available items, the best way to deal fairly with prospective takers, and > the best way to ensure that the items go to good homes. The first set of > auctions will begin in the next few days. I will consider trades for > other > items; a list of things I am seeking will accompany each auction. > > I will continue my duties as list moderator for some time. Jay will see > to > the long-term continuation of list services. > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp > -- David Vohs netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free From mbg at TheWorld.com Sun May 11 21:34:00 2003 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Leaving the Hobby References: <7924822322.20030512192207@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <200305120233.WAA3856421@shell.TheWorld.com> Jeff - if I might ask.. what is your id on ebay so that we (collectively) can watch for your auctions... Sorry to see you go... good luck... Megan From vaxzilla at jarai.org Sun May 11 21:39:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: <000001c317ed$c295efc0$6401a8c0@fred> References: <000001c317ed$c295efc0$6401a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, Fred deBros wrote: > I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01 infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an > hdd > > The back panel looks almost like a Vaxstation, except that it has two > scsi terminators, 3 mmj plugs called 1, 2 and 3 with the two-way > arrows on them (my guess serial i/o) and a db25 instead of the db15. > Above the db25 plug is a square containing a broad arrow upward, not > the usual printer symbol found on dec eqpt. No mouse and no kbd plug > there. But otherwise, the back of the box looks similar: it has the > aui and bnc Ethernet connectors, the push-button switch between them > and the s3 switch between the check lights and the db25 pin plug. That sounds /exactly/ like what's on the back of a MicroVAX 3100 (either a 10, 20, 10e, or 20e). This would be a contemporary system to the VAXstation 3100, but there aren't any graphics options for it. > So the s3 switch looking exactly like the one on a Vaxstation 3100 > series should do the same: switch from serial display/console to > terminal. And the dB25 plug is not a printer out, but functionally > similar to the db15 of the vs3100: it carries mouse/kbd and b/w analog > signals (single bnc) for a terminal display. No SPX or GPX board in > there anyways. Am I right? > > Long slide for a short question: Is there a DEC cable that fits this > db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd plugs - analogous to the vs3100 > 15-pin plug? Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? If this is an early MicroVAX 3100 derived system, which I believe it is, the DB25F connector is a standard serial port. You can connect a null modem between it an a serial terminal (or a straight through cable for other serial devices) > All I need is kbd and analog out. That would allow me to fire up this > otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax. Or try the new linux vs3100 > kernel on a compact system that has the cd built-in..... he ports labelled 1-3 are standard DEC MMJ serial ports. Port #3 is the one you should use for the serial console. If you want a keyboard/display,l you'll either need a terminal or a PC and a null modem running terminal emulation software. Your best bet for getting an OS running on this is to run NetBSD/vax. There's a bootable ISO cdrom image available at: -brian. From rdd at rddavis.org Sun May 11 21:50:00 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030512024930.GC99261@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Vintage Computer Festival, from writings of Sun, May 11, 2003 at 06:04:04PM -0700: > Ok, I choose my grandfather's hand then. He can count with it so > therefore it's a computer, and he's well over 70. Actually, whatever living creatures are the descendents of the oldest known creature, which have a brain, are surely the oldest computers, having come from self-reproducing computers themselves. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Sun May 11 22:57:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030511235429.00a50aa0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> > Ok, I choose my grandfather's hand then. He can count with it so > therefore it's a computer, and he's well over 70. His brain does the computing. His hand is just one of his I/O devices. At 06:04 PM 5/11/03 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 May 2003, chris wrote: > > > Logic plays no role... this was nothing more than a question I posed > > (almost a week ago non the less). Therefore in looking for answers, I can > > allow or disallow anything I please for any reason I please. That doesn't > > make it valid or invalid for anyone other than me. If others want to tag > > onto my 2 questions, then they can use whatever criterea they desire to > > see if something is a valid answer for them. > >Ok, I choose my grandfather's hand then. He can count with it so >therefore it's a computer, and he's well over 70. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at > www.VintageTech.com * From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun May 11 23:21:00 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: If the V_yger computer blue screens, ... (was: Oldest comput In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030511011310.024eeec8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20030512041951.LVHU16157.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > My variation of that is: "If a tree falls in the Gallaudet campus, does it > make a sound?" (admittedly meaningless for those unfamiliar) Yes i know what this Gallaudet college. But I went to RIT/NTID instead long ago. This is very old old oft saying indeed. Instead, use semisometer to detect those small earthquakes to pinpoint that tree impact. :-) Cheers, Wizard From at258 at osfn.org Sun May 11 23:51:00 2003 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's just a matter of thinning the quiche herds and tracking down some wild Brie. On Sun, 11 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Assuming you're back in the Stone Age, a crystal receiver is proably not > > the best thing to build. You need to consider the transmitter as well, > > and a crystal set is only really useful if you have a modulated > > transmitter. > > Ya know, maybe I'm just pessimistic, but if we suddenly got plunged back > into the stone age, I think we'd be so occupied trying to find some edible > food and fending off the bands of raving marauders and packs of wild > animals that we wouldn't have much time for radio entertainment. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 12 00:14:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <1052703445.12310.9.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> References: <200305111501.h4BF1Zi21218@mailgate5.cinetic.de> <200305111745.NAA3856058@shell.TheWorld.com> <1052703445.12310.9.camel@mail.worldvenue.org> Message-ID: >On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 15:29, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> For the person asking about connecting a PDP-11 to the net: >> There is TCPware for RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, MicroRSX, and I believe RT-11, > >If you have more information about the availability of TCPware for >RT-11, I would be very interested. I've no idea, I know the RSX-11M+ version is still available. I assume if you contacted them they'd sell you a license. I also assume you're a hobbyist, and even if you're not, Alan Baldwin's probably offers more features. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 12 03:01:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: MINC-11 In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "RE: MINC-11" (May 9, 9:53) References: Message-ID: <10305120753.ZM22096@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 9, 9:53, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > > Behalf Of Peter Turnbull > > Sent: 06 May 2003 23:58 > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: MINC-11 > > > > If anyone in the UK wants a MINC-11, I know where there is one, > I haven't any more room either.....whereabouts in Scotland is it? Edinburgh. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 12 05:55:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <010501c31669$e05eeb40$0500fea9@game> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030509020734.030af090@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030511221635.033d74e0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 04:30 PM 5/9/03 -0400, TeoZ wrote: >$25 for a nubus uwscsi or a IIgs card is fair, but on ebay some go for over >$50. I find it funny how you see the same person with the same add selling >one a day after his last auction sold. Is it the same one that was bid up by >a shill or does he have a big pile of the rare cards. For at least the last 5 years the MAJOR problem with Apple II related items is that they don't sell for high enough price, often enough, to keep more than a small percentage of systems from going directly into gold recovery bins. I hate to think of how many items that we griped about the silly selling price on ebay that are now gone, and never likely to show up at other than wild prices if at all. 16 MB IIfx ram simms, eventide sound cards for the IIe, Tokamac IIfx 68040 cards. Nobody is making a lot of money in classic computers, its more like sifting a LOT of sand for a few small nuggets. From Michael.Haffely at katun.com Mon May 12 08:12:00 2003 From: Michael.Haffely at katun.com (Michael Haffely) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: Voyager Mission Operations Status Report # 2003-03-14, March 8 Through March 14, 2003 Command Transmission & Verification Operations Voyager 1 command operations consisted of a command loss timer reset on 03/11 [DOY 070/1555z]. The spacecraft received the command. There were no Voyager 2 command operations during the period. Sequence Generation Operations Continue sequence development of CCSL A047 and B119 mini-sequence. Data Return Operations Voyager 1 Data Processing and Operations: There were 79.1 hours of DSN scheduled support for Voyager 1 of which 2.5 hours were large aperture coverage. There was one real-time change made on 03/11 [DOY 070] when 1.3 hours of DSS-25 support was released to Ulysses. The total actual support was 77.8 hours of which 2.5 hours were large aperture coverage. There were no significant outages during the period. Science instrument performance was nominal for all activities during this period. One frame of GS-4 data was recorded this week. The AHELI1 cyclic for recording additional GS-4 data was enabled on November 17, 2001. A frame from this cyclic was recorded on March 8. The EDR backlog is 23 days. Voyager 2 Data Processing and Operations: There were 73.9 hours of DSN scheduled support for Voyager 2 of which 18.0 hours were large aperture coverage. There were no real-time or schedule support changes made or significant outages during the period. Science instrument performance was nominal for all activities during this period. One frame of GS-4 data was recorded on March 12. The PRA receiver recovered from it's 84th POR event on March 11. It has been 393 days since the last POR event. Twenty-six frames of GS-4 data were played back on March 12. Approximately 96.95% of the data were recovered. The EDR backlog is 23 days. Flight System Performance Voyager 1 performance was nominal during this report period. Activity included an ASCAL on 3/12 (DOY 071). Voyager 2 performance was nominal during this report period. Activities included a PMPCAL on 3/11 (DOY 070), X-Band high power and DTR playback on 3/12 (DOY 071), and turning ON Gyros B/C on 3/13 (DOY 072). PROPELLANT/POWER CONSUMABLES STATUS AS OF 3-13-03/3-14-03 Spacecraft Consumption One Week (Gm) Propellant Remaining (Kg) Output (Watts) Margin (Watts) 1 9.12 30.23 305.0 28 2 9.82 32.11 306.4 37 RANGE, VELOCITY AND ROUND TRIP LIGHT TIME AS OF 3/14/03 Voyager 1 Voyager 2 Distance from the Sun (Km) 13,119,000,000 10,424,000,000 Distance from the Sun (Mi) 8,152,000,000 6,477,000,000 Distance from the Earth (Km) 13,096,000,000 10,479,000,000 Distance from the Earth (Mi) 8,137,000,000 6,511,000,000 Total Distance Traveled Since Launch (Km) 14,941,000,000 14,007,000,000 Total Distance Traveled Since Launch (Mi) 9,284,000,000 8,704,000,000 Velocity Relative to Sun (Km/sec) 17.212 15.690 Velocity Relative to Sun (Mi/hr) 38,501 35,096 Velocity Relative to Earth (Km/sec) 18.770 24.570 Velocity Relative to Earth (Mi/hr) 41,986 54,961 Round Trip Light Time (hh:mm:ss) 24:15:58 19:25:04 From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 08:46:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: >> On another list I am on, we were discussing why DOS is still used today >> (basic answer, because its working just fine, so why upgrade). >> The following questions were posed that I don't know the answer to, but >> someone here might. > >The questions are meaningless without clarification and/or parameters. I was trying to leave it vague, specifically because I WANTED to elict discussions like "Does Voyager count?". I wanted to see what the general opinions of list members were regarding what they felt was the oldest computer or computer system still in regular use. If I tried to clarify it too much, then I risked people not answering because they felt it didn't qualify (I'll be the judge of what I feel doesn't qualify for myself, but I wanted all opinons regardless). >> 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal >> operational use > >You havn't even clarified whether you mean individual machine, or design. >Individual machine: stonehenge >design: abacus Although both are valid, I was really after an electronic computer (although I don't care if it is digital or analog). Actually, answers like these are why I left it vague. I hadn't even thought about either answer, and both are fully valid. They are old "computing" systems, still operating today. Had I clarified my question with specific parameters, then you might not have suggested them as possible answers. >> 2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet > >Continuously connected? or just the oldest machine that is now connected? >For example: if today somebody connects a Univac, would that count? >Are you really after which machine is the oldest of those that are >connected? or are you REALLY after whgich machine has been connected >longest? I'm just curious what the oldest someone has gotten connected to the internet is. So someone finding a way to connect a Univac, even if it is just for 10 minutes to see if it can be done would be acceptable to me. This question had a 2nd part to it that asked what was the oldest that was hosting a web site (although in rethinking my own question, I would accept any kind of public accessable internet connected server be it web, ftp, telnet, or whatever). So this part would imply a longer duration connection. BUT, you also bring up an interesting 4th question... what computer has been connected to the internet the longest (and in addition, which one has the longest single continious uptime of internet connection and how long is/was that) -chris From Gary.Messick at itt.com Mon May 12 08:50:01 2003 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD707363270@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:22 AM > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > > > I am inclined to believe there may still be some ground > systems for the > Space Shuttle program that are run on 8080 based machines.2 > I can confirm as a fact that there was at least 1 8086 flying on Columbia before Feb 1. ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 08:55:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 Message-ID: >> Rebuilding? Without the existing infrastructure (in the wilderness), how >> many people would be capable of building/making ANYTHING? Other than >> Tony, could you make a battery? a bulb? Do you really know how to extract >> the materials needed from the ground? > >I can think of two people off the top of my head - Captain Kirk when >fighting the Zorn Captain, and McGuyver in just about any episode. Don't forget the Professor from Giligan's Island. :-) -chris From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon May 12 09:12:01 2003 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Congrats to Megan Message-ID: I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but I see that Megan has gotten a new job. Congratulations! -----Original Message----- From: Megan [mailto:mbg@theworld.com] Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 12:46 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: RE: Oldest computer still in current use Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world dot std dot com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje dot com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc | | | 100 Apollo Dr. | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon May 12 09:14:00 2003 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: FW: PoqetPad Plus User Guide Message-ID: FYI (From the Poqet mailing list) Bob -----Original Message----- From: Sven Utcke [mailto:utcke@informatik.uni-hamburg.de] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 5:33 AM To: Poqet PC mailing list Subject: PoqetPad Plus User Guide Hi everybody, several of you were interested in the User Guide for the PoqetPadPlus. Bill Moy was so good to photocopy his version (several times) and to send it to all interested --- big cheers to Bill for that! John O'Neal than scanned in his copy, and after a lot of problems with ftp this is now available as a 16MB File at ftp://kogs.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/pub/utcke/poqetpc/PoqetPadPlus.pdf Happy downloading Sven -- _ __ The Cognitive Systems Group | |/ /___ __ _ ___ University of Hamburg | ' Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030512091511.01a3c308@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, Does anyone have a data book with a MJ10048 transistor in it? I need either a scan, or at least the specs on this. Thanks in advance! --tom From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 12 09:26:00 2003 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: <001401c31773$491fbb00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: >On Sun, 11 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > >> Wether its sending back data is mute since its too far away for that >> data to get to us. Its missin was to send back data on everything it >> found, why would that misson ever end since its still moving through >> space? > >I believe we can still discern Voyager signal. http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/ http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/jup_missns/jup-p10.html Both Voyagers and one Pioneer are still being tracked, daily for the Voyagers and "occasionally" for Pioneer 10. All are looking for the point where the solar wind finally gets overwhelmed by the local interstellar medium flow (there should be a bow shock in the "upwind" direction). The main instrument being used for the search is a magnetometer, which should register a change in the local magnetic field when the spacecraft crosses the bow shock. Bit rates are very very low (bits per minute type thing, don't know exactly but can find out if you are interested.) The science being addressed is something we have no other way of observing in situ (remote observing missions are being planned) so it's still in practical use if you regard basic scientific research as "practical" (I do, but then, I would). Pioneer 10 was launched 02-Mar-1972, and it's questionable whether you want to claim it contains a "computer" anyway, so it's maybe not relevant to the original question. - Mark From kth at srv.net Mon May 12 09:42:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 References: <000001c317ed$c295efc0$6401a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <3EBFBB3B.1040606@srv.net> Fred deBros wrote: >I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01 infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an >hdd > >The back panel looks almost like a Vaxstation, except that it has two > Should only have one SCSI connector, the other connector you see is probably the ansync io port. The infoservers had special ROM's in them, which may cause problems trying to use the system as a regular VAX. I think replacement ROMS aren't too hard to get. >scsi terminators, 3 mmj plugs called 1, 2 and 3 with the two-way arrows > MMJ was only used for serial ports, signals should be in the RS232 range. >on them (my guess serial i/o) and a db25 instead of the db15. Above the >db25 plug is a square containing a broad arrow upward, not the usual >printer symbol found on dec eqpt. No mouse and no kbd plug there. But >otherwise, the back of the box looks similar: it has the aui and bnc >Ethernet connectors, the push-button switch between them and the s3 >switch between the check lights and the db25 pin plug. > >So the s3 switch looking exactly like the one on a Vaxstation 3100 >series should do the same: switch from serial display/console to >terminal. And the dB25 plug is not a printer out, but functionally >similar to the db15 of the vs3100: it carries mouse/kbd and b/w analog >signals (single bnc) for a terminal display. No SPX or GPX board in >there anyways. Am I right? > I doubt it. It is probably a standard RS232 serial port. DEC used odd connectors for the keyboard/mouse/video connectors, so that people couldn't plug things into the wrong port. The connectors varied with the video cards. They didn't use a 25 pin port for parallel printers on the VAX. That was an IBM PC thing (use cheaper connectors to save $$'s in manufacturing). It sounds like this system based on a 3100-10. No built-in video support, unless they added an optional video card. I doubt they would put a video card in an infoserver. >Long slide for a short question: >Is there a DEC cable that fits this db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd >plugs - analogous to the vs3100 15-pin plug? >Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? > Look at the RS-232 specs. >All I need is kbd and analog out. That would allow me to fire up this >otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax. >Or try the new linux vs3100 kernel on a compact system that has the cd >built-in..... > >Fred > > > Plug a terminal (9600 baud) into MMJ-1, and you should be able to talk to it. From allain at panix.com Mon May 12 09:44:01 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts References: Message-ID: <007e01c31894$a3fd0380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Voyager Mission Operations Status Report # 2003-03-14,... > Flight System Performance... > PROPELLANT/POWER CONSUMABLES STAT... > Spacecraft Consumption > One Week (Gm) Propellant = 9.12 > (Watts) = 305.0 also: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=4963 OK Mike, etc, Since you bring it up, why does this report imply that grams of fuel equals watts of power? Shouldn't that be watt-seconds or are they using shorthand? I note that this is in the flight systems section, so is presumably not about electrics. John A. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 09:51:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: <007e01c31894$a3fd0380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20030512144931.53728.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > > Voyager Mission Operations Status Report # 2003-03-14,... > > Flight System Performance... > > PROPELLANT/POWER CONSUMABLES STAT... > > Spacecraft Consumption > > One Week (Gm) Propellant = 9.12 > > (Watts) = 305.0 > also: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=4963 > > OK Mike, etc, > Since you bring it up, why does this report imply that grams > of fuel equals watts of power? Shouldn't that be watt-seconds > or are they using shorthand? Having once received weekly Voyager status reports from Ron Baalke, I read that report as during the week, the spacecraft used 9gm of propellant, and required 305 W to accomplish its task. In the case of a Voyager-class probe, with RTG-sourced power, they can graph number of watts available over time as the heat source decays. The critical thing is not to set yourself up to draw more power than the RTG can source. I would expect the spacecraft to go into safe mode if it hit a significant power deficit. They used to power automated weather stations in Antarctica with the same RTG technology, but due to the environmental treaty, the last one came out over 5 years ago. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon May 12 10:17:00 2003 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002401c31899$23f49400$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Although both are valid, I was really after an electronic computer > (although I don't care if it is digital or analog). > > Actually, answers like these are why I left it vague. I hadn't even > thought about either answer, and both are fully valid. They are old > "computing" systems, still operating today. Had I clarified my question > with specific parameters, then you might not have suggested them as > possible answers. I suspect - but have no evidence to confirm - that some third-world countries have tanks and artillery with ballistics computers made in the 1950s. Andy From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 10:22:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: >The science being addressed is something we have no other way of observing >in situ (remote observing missions are being planned) so it's still in >practical use if you regard basic scientific research as "practical" (I do, >but then, I would). After seeing the mission status report on Vyger, I'd have to revise my previous notion that I didn't accept it as an answer. Since it is still sending data, and we are still receiving it, and it is still carrying out its original mission (ie: it isn't doing it simply because it can't be turned off, but rather is doing it because we WANT it to do it regardless of our ability to shut it off). I'd have to say that I now DO accept Vyger as an answer. So the question is, when was it launched (1977) and is there something older in regular use (I would think so). But this also brought to my attention something I had previously not know. That Voyager 1 and 2 were both launched at the same time. I had always thought 2 was years after 1 (I thought 2 was late 70's, and 1 was early 70's). I'm not sure why I thought that, maybe it was because it took a different course and was more recently in the news sending back data about the outer planets. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 10:26:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: >In the >case of a Voyager-class probe, with RTG-sourced power, For the few of us on the list that are idiots (ok, fine, just for me then), what is RTG sourced power? -chris From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 11:45:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <200305121643.JAA03189@clulw009.amd.com> >From: TeoZ > >The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military server >somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their equipment out >every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other branches only upgrade Hi You must know something about the military that I don't know. When I was in the military ( middle 70's ) we were still using some pieces of gear that were made during ww2. The military often doesn't replace something until you can't get replacement parts any more. In some cases, even then, ways are found to keep them running. They do get a lot of new gear but that is usually to add function and not to replace. Dwight >after every user who knows how to run the system is dead/retired. Probably >some computer setup for the social security database, or liscense plate >server or other mundane task. > >Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant >controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the C64. > >What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? Or >is this just personal computers? > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "R. D. Davis" >To: >Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:59 PM >Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > > >> Quothe UnRooster, from writings of Sat, May 10, 2003 at 01:14:38PM -0600: >> > What about Commodore 64? >> >> Hardly. That's one of those newfangled little computers of relatively >> recent vintage. It doesn't seem all that long since my C-64 was >> brand spanking new. Does that mean that I'm getting old? ;-) >> >> -- >> Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other >animals: >> All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature >& >> rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify >such >> http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dundas at caltech.edu Mon May 12 12:03:01 2003 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:20 AM -0700 5/12/03, chris wrote: >So the question >is, when was it launched (1977) and is there something older in regular >use (I would think so). My first "real job", that is a non-school job, was as a programmer for the Ground Data Systems group of Voyager at JPL. 360s and such. My memory is hazy, but approximately August, 1977. VGR2 went ahead of VGR1. John --------------------------------------------------------- John A. Dundas III Director, Information Technology Services Infrastructure, Caltech Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA 91125-8100 Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 12:04:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay Message-ID: <200305121702.KAA03199@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hills, Paul" > >That's a lot - it's not really a vintage machine, nor a particularly rare >one. I still use mine as a MC56000 Digital Signal Processing (DSP) testbed. >At the time, the ?500 I paid for it was a quarter of what I would have had >to pay to get a DSP experimentation card for a PC, and since I didn't have a >PC at the time it was a bargain. > >In addition to that, I wrote a series of articles about DSP for the ST >Format magazine in the UK, for which they paid me ?500, recompensing the >computer's cost! Ha! > >paul > Hi For my DSP experiments, I got one of those "SoftModems". It had a A/D-D/A, ADSP2100 Analog Devices DSP and RAM to load the programs into. It only cost me $75 when new. Dwight From kapteynr at cboe.com Mon May 12 12:56:00 2003 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Kapteyn, Rob) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: I think RTG stands for "Radioactive Thermal Generation" or something like that. It is a hunk of plutonium that, on its own, glows at a high temperature. Since the temperature of space is near absolute zero, there is a large temperature difference. A relatively simple, dependable thermocouple generates electrical power from this temperature difference, making a really long-lasting, dependable battery -- but not of the sort you want in your kid's toys :-) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of chris Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:25 AM To: Classic Computer Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts >In the >case of a Voyager-class probe, with RTG-sourced power, For the few of us on the list that are idiots (ok, fine, just for me then), what is RTG sourced power? -chris From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon May 12 13:00:00 2003 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030512175855.GF9602@uiuc.edu> chris said: > > But this also brought to my attention something I had previously not > know. That Voyager 1 and 2 were both launched at the same time. I had > always thought 2 was years after 1 (I thought 2 was late 70's, and 1 was > early 70's). I'm not sure why I thought that, maybe it was because it > took a different course and was more recently in the news sending back > data about the outer planets. That's probably exactly why. They were sent on different courses so they could look at different stuff. Voyager 2 is the more famous of the two, as I recall, because it took all those neat-o pictures of Jupiter. > > -chris > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan [demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From als at thangorodrim.de Mon May 12 13:09:00 2003 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030512174106.GA16490@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, May 12, 2003 at 11:24:53AM -0400, chris wrote: > >In the > >case of a Voyager-class probe, with RTG-sourced power, > > For the few of us on the list that are idiots (ok, fine, just for me > then), what is RTG sourced power? Radionuclear Thermal Generator, a device which contains some suitable radioactive isotope. The isotope produces heat due to nuclear decay and this heat is used to produce electric power. A nice longterm source for considerable amounts of power (depending on size/weight constraints, they can deliver anything from a few watt to a few kilowatt and even more). Disadvantages: guaranteed to not earn you any new friends among the treehuggers and its power output drops logarithmically over time. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 13:10:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V Message-ID: <200305121803.LAA03342@clulw009.amd.com> Hi One should note that most switching supplies are happier with an additional 20% voltage. Linears get hotter with excess voltage. Dwight >From: "Gary Dean Hildebrand" >> >Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >> Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era >> (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage >> is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? > >A variac (ISTR is three syllables) will work, but why can't you get a >18-20vac transformer and wire it to buck the 120v down to 100v? I'd think >that would be simpler, and a whole lot smaller. > >Cameron, you said you were in the market for a variac. I have a couple for >sale, but they are 10A, complete with STEEL rack panel. These would be >great for any workbench, and good for some current as well. Drop me a line >offlist. > >Gary Hildebrand >St. Joseph, MO From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 13:10:09 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V Message-ID: <200305121803.LAA03342@clulw009.amd.com> Hi One should note that most switching supplies are happier with an additional 20% voltage. Linears get hotter with excess voltage. Dwight >From: "Gary Dean Hildebrand" >> >Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >> Anyone out there have experience with how Japanese computers of that era >> (early 1980s) tolerate United States mains voltage, since Japanese voltage >> is lower (100V)? Any recommendations, cautions, or concerns? > >A variac (ISTR is three syllables) will work, but why can't you get a >18-20vac transformer and wire it to buck the 120v down to 100v? I'd think >that would be simpler, and a whole lot smaller. > >Cameron, you said you were in the market for a variac. I have a couple for >sale, but they are 10A, complete with STEEL rack panel. These would be >great for any workbench, and good for some current as well. Drop me a line >offlist. > >Gary Hildebrand >St. Joseph, MO From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon May 12 13:10:16 2003 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030512180914.GG9602@uiuc.edu> chris said: > >In the > >case of a Voyager-class probe, with RTG-sourced power, > > For the few of us on the list that are idiots (ok, fine, just for me > then), what is RTG sourced power? From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 12 13:15:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Need HP-UX System Security manual ($$$) Message-ID: I am in need of the HP-UX System Security manual from 1989. I don't know if that is the exact title but it's what I was given. If someone's got it then please come forward. There is a bounty for this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 13:21:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: >From what I remember, those probes (and most (all?) other deep space probes, I >think), use a radioisotope decay generator for power. This is a >sub-critical-mass nuclear power plant; it uses the heat produced by a >near-critical lump of plutonium to generate electricity, rather then using >fission to produce heat to produce electricity. So is this the power supply all those whiney people were bitching about NASA trying to put into a Mars probe? They were all afraid the probe would explode during launch and be ground zero of a nuclear blast (or some other most likely vagely based on reality doomsday outcome activists are notorious for). -chris From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 13:43:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: <200305121841.LAA03360@clulw009.amd.com> >From: chris > >>From what I remember, those probes (and most (all?) other deep space probes, I >>think), use a radioisotope decay generator for power. This is a >>sub-critical-mass nuclear power plant; it uses the heat produced by a >>near-critical lump of plutonium to generate electricity, rather then using >>fission to produce heat to produce electricity. > >So is this the power supply all those whiney people were bitching about >NASA trying to put into a Mars probe? They were all afraid the probe >would explode during launch and be ground zero of a nuclear blast (or >some other most likely vagely based on reality doomsday outcome activists >are notorious for). > >-chris > > Hi You can't even get a pile of plutonium of greater than critical mass to blow up, by it self. It will just get hotter and hotter until is melts or if contained long enough to vaporize. To make a bomb you need to increase the neutrons quickly. In a bomb, this is done with a thing called a trigger. What most where worried about was just the accidental spread of radioactive material in the atmosphere. I don't know about you but I don't like breathing that stuff if I don't have to. The problem is that NASA doesn't have a good track record for using common sense to avoid accidents. I'm still in favor of them using the radioactive power sources for the probes, I just wish it was someone else determining when and how it was safe to launch them. Dwight From allain at panix.com Mon May 12 13:50:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: <000b01c3172e$05c77cc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <002c01c318b5$ff796980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> The SparcII has a Mfg date of 1992, making it on topic. Sure is a fussy sucker takes 30 seconds before displaying any video at all. takes 5 minutes testing memory before responding to the keyboard. will boot the disk but won't even allow log-in attempts until it finds a netlog server. Any info on password cracking? Should I now switch to netBSD or can I get it to use SunOS or Solaris (it has SunOS v5.5.1 on it). John A. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 13:51:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: <20030512180914.GG9602@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20030512185011.97404.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Wright wrote: > chris said: > > >In the > > >case of a Voyager-class probe, with RTG-sourced power, > > > > For the few of us on the list that are idiots (ok, fine, just for me > > then), what is RTG sourced power? > > From what I remember, those probes (and most (all?) other deep space > probes, I think), use a radioisotope decay generator for power. > This is a sub-critical-mass nuclear power plant; it uses the heat > produced by a near-critical lump of plutonium to generate electricity, > rather then using fission to produce heat to produce electricity. Exactly. Sorry for not being clearer - RTG is "Radioisotope Thermal Generator" - It's a multi-kg sphere of plutonium with a wad of embedded thermocouples. The plutonium just fissions and produces heat (and neutrons) which the thermocouples turn directly (albeit inefficiently) into heat. They are favored for remote devices (deep space, Antarctica, etc.) because they do not depend on sunlight. Further out than Mars (and for ~six months out of the year on the Ice), solar cells aren't a viable option. The big worry is that the launch vehicle will explode or the probe will fall to earth from a failed booster stage and scatter the contents of the RTG over a wide swath. They are designed to take a lot of abuse, but nobody wants to be a test case. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 13:55:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Japanese 100V units on USA 110-120V In-Reply-To: <200305121803.LAA03342@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20030512185419.54376.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Hi > One should note that most switching supplies are happier > with an additional 20% voltage. Linears get hotter with > excess voltage. > Dwight As long as none of the components have been hand-picked for cheapness. Seriously, though, 20% should be OK for stuff attached to mains. 100% is right out! (i.e., plugging U.S. equipment into European power that isn't marked as rated for it). I have plugged my Sharp Japanese word processor into U.S. wall current with no ill effects, but it _might_ be rated at 100-120V on the side. It uses one of those standard consumer modular plugs that slightly resemble a figure-8 - the kind you see on cassette tape recorders and boom boxes. Speaking of Japanese units, has anyone out there played with a Japanese Sega Saturn? I have "Zork I" and "Return to Zork" that I'd like to load up, but the emulators I've found all choke on them. I need a real Saturn (either genuine for-the-Japanese-market, or a U.S. model with the SMT jumpers moved). -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon May 12 14:02:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305121459.49839.jcwren@jcwren.com> Vaguely true. They're concerned about a pad explosion or unexpected reentry that could result in plutonium being scattered around the countryside. Plutonium is an extremely toxic metal. 1 microgram will kill you damn quick. Plus it's readily absorbed by tissue, which means everywhere you have a Pu speck, you're irradiating tissue with ionizing radiation in a few centimeter radius. Not good for a long term outlook. Incidently, the tree huggers worries on this matter are not completely unfounded. Because of launch weight issues, the shielding material is not really designed to survive reentry. --John On Monday 12 May 2003 14:20 pm, chris wrote: > From what I remember, those probes (and most (all?) other deep space > probes, I > > >think), use a radioisotope decay generator for power. This is a > >sub-critical-mass nuclear power plant; it uses the heat produced by a > >near-critical lump of plutonium to generate electricity, rather then using > >fission to produce heat to produce electricity. > > So is this the power supply all those whiney people were bitching about > NASA trying to put into a Mars probe? They were all afraid the probe > would explode during launch and be ground zero of a nuclear blast (or > some other most likely vagely based on reality doomsday outcome activists > are notorious for). > > -chris > From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 14:09:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: > What most where worried about was just the accidental >spread of radioactive material in the atmosphere. I don't know >about you but I don't like breathing that stuff if I don't >have to. Knowing NOTHING about radioactive material (other than its amazing what simple items will set off my fire department's old geiger counter)... would an explosion really pose a health hazard? Are we talking about enough of a quantity to cause an issue (I don't know how deadly it is, so I don't know what kind of an airborn PPM is needed to be a problem). -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 14:14:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. In-Reply-To: <002c01c318b5$ff796980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20030512191234.1553.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > The SparcII has a Mfg date of 1992, making it on topic. I had one of those for a while - sold it to a former employer about 4 years ago. I'm on a SPARCstation-5/110 at the moment ($35 at last year's Dayton Hamvention). I'm contemplating moving up to an Ultra if I can find one for cheap. I'd even take an old Ultra-5 if it were cheap enough. > Sure is a fussy sucker > takes 30 seconds before displaying > any video at all. That's probably video-card dependent. If you have a "dual-wide" CG6 or a CG3, you might want to consider getting something newer. You don't need a TGX+, but I find console operations with the older cards to be a frustrating experience (no hardware acceleration of the pixels in console mode). > takes 5 minutes testing memory before responding > to the keyboard. That can be fixed with an NVRAM setting (test-megs?) > will boot the disk but won't even allow log-in attempts > until it finds a netlog server. Hmm... that should also be settable. > Any info on password cracking? NVRAM password or OS password? The easiest way to crack passwords is to boot a distribution CD; it's easy to get to a root prompt and either edit the shadow file (OS password) or use the eeprom command (NVRAM password). If the boot sequence is locked so you can't boot a CD-ROM, then rejumpering the target disk to some other unit number and installing a friendly OS disk at the expected SCSI target number is probably the easiest way in. It's an easier process in any case if you have another machine of any similar variety handy (in your case, anything from a SPARC1 up through a SPARC2 (1+, ELC, etc.) will be a perfect match; depending on how it was installed, a SPARC5 or SPARC10 disk might or might not boot for you). I had to resort to a remote net boot to clear the NVRAM config on my SPARCclassic - it *wanted* to boot off the network, so I made my SPARC2 a network boot server and brought up the classic far enough to use the eeprom command to reset the NVRAM password and default boot device. Instructions for a variety of these techniques are available in several places - I would point people at www.sunhelp.org to start with. Also look for the Sun Hardware FAQ and Solaris Managers FAQ. There's also a "Suns-at-Home" mailing list (low volume) that I subscribe to. > Should I now switch to netBSD or can I get it to use SunOS > or Solaris (it has SunOS v5.5.1 on it). Personally, since I have adminstrated Solaris for $$$, I prefer to run Solaris at home (I used to make a living off of flavors of 4BSD, but that was a long time ago). If you are used to BSD, then there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but if you want to hone commercially desired skills, I see posting locally for Solaris folks just about every week. Your box happens to be of the "sun4c" architecture, BTW. That limits you to Solaris 7 or lower. You need a "sun4m" or "better" to run Solaris 8 (SPARCclassic, SPARC-LX, SPARC-5, SPARC-10, SPARC-20, etc.) The current version is Solaris 9, and even sun4m machines won't be supported by Solaris 10 (or is it 'X' ;-) More details here -> http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/solaris/versions/ Solaris 2.5.1 (what you have) is fine for a SPARC-2. If you needed to, you might get access to a little more stuff if you were running Solaris 2.6. Unless you had a pressing need (like certain pre-compiled binaries), I wouldn't necessarily recommend Solaris 7, especially if you don't have 64MB (or more, but that requires a daughter card). -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 14:16:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512191426.84799.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- chris wrote: > Knowing NOTHING about radioactive material (other than its amazing what > simple items will set off my fire department's old geiger counter)... Peanut Butter. Seriously. Cigarette Smoke, too (Polonium, IIRC). > would an explosion really pose a health hazard? Are we talking about > enough of a quantity to cause an issue (I don't know how deadly it is, so > I don't know what kind of an airborn PPM is needed to be a problem). ISTR a fatal dose of inhaled plutonium is 50 mcg. Considering there are kgs of PU238 in an RTG, that's a lot of doses. It's just a matter of how close you are to the plume. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 12 14:17:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: >Plutonium is an extremely toxic metal. 1 microgram will kill you damn >quick. >Plus it's readily absorbed by tissue, which means everywhere you have a Pu >speck, you're irradiating tissue with ionizing radiation in a few centimeter >radius. Not good for a long term outlook. Ok, that answered the other question I just posed, that is, how dangerous is it. Sounds like its some pretty nasty stuff so an explosion WOULD be of actual concern. > Incidently, the tree huggers worries on this matter are not completely >unfounded. Because of launch weight issues, the shielding material is not >really designed to survive reentry. And add to it like Dwight said, NASA's track record for screwing things up... and yeah, I guess there was a good cause for concern. I could see it being less of an issue in the past when NASA spent tons and tons of money on a single probe, but these days, when they seem hell bent on getting the cost under that of a VW Bug, I would expect more accidents to occur. -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 12 14:20:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts References: <200305121459.49839.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <012b01c318ba$4c084560$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Well since there is still a spacestation orbiting the globe you can send a shipment of just the fuel in packages (I assume quite a few could be launched for the weight of 1 space probe) that will withstand re-entry to the station and then load these batteries as needed into probes and launch them from there. Most of the weight of a launch vehicle is just to get the payload out of earths gravity, very little is needed once your in deep space to achieve a nice cruising speed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C. Wren" To: Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 2:59 PM Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts > Vaguely true. They're concerned about a pad explosion or unexpected reentry > that could result in plutonium being scattered around the countryside. > Plutonium is an extremely toxic metal. 1 microgram will kill you damn quick. > Plus it's readily absorbed by tissue, which means everywhere you have a Pu > speck, you're irradiating tissue with ionizing radiation in a few centimeter > radius. Not good for a long term outlook. > > Incidently, the tree huggers worries on this matter are not completely > unfounded. Because of launch weight issues, the shielding material is not > really designed to survive reentry. > > --John > > On Monday 12 May 2003 14:20 pm, chris wrote: > > > From what I remember, those probes (and most (all?) other deep space > > probes, I > > > > >think), use a radioisotope decay generator for power. This is a > > >sub-critical-mass nuclear power plant; it uses the heat produced by a > > >near-critical lump of plutonium to generate electricity, rather then using > > >fission to produce heat to produce electricity. > > > > So is this the power supply all those whiney people were bitching about > > NASA trying to put into a Mars probe? They were all afraid the probe > > would explode during launch and be ground zero of a nuclear blast (or > > some other most likely vagely based on reality doomsday outcome activists > > are notorious for). > > > > -chris > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 12 14:38:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts References: Message-ID: <013e01c318bc$dab1a7a0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> NASA used to have all the money they ever wanted, untill people got bored with space and other sections of the government got the extra money. It looks to me like NASA has too many projects it funnels limited amounts of money into, and the management places more concern on meeting deadlines then safety. Ignoring danger warnings from designers on o-ring seals, not spending the money to check the last shuttle in space for damage via spy satelite pictures. To be honest the manned missions to the moon didnt really help us out much (except to force us to make the technology to get there). We would learn more, and probably find a payback from exploring the deep oceans (maybe even mining them) then having somebody land on mars and then hop back on the spaceship to earch with a few rocks (a probe is better suited for this). ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 3:15 PM Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts > >Plutonium is an extremely toxic metal. 1 microgram will kill you damn > >quick. > >Plus it's readily absorbed by tissue, which means everywhere you have a Pu > >speck, you're irradiating tissue with ionizing radiation in a few centimeter > >radius. Not good for a long term outlook. > > Ok, that answered the other question I just posed, that is, how dangerous > is it. > > Sounds like its some pretty nasty stuff so an explosion WOULD be of > actual concern. > > > Incidently, the tree huggers worries on this matter are not completely > >unfounded. Because of launch weight issues, the shielding material is not > >really designed to survive reentry. > > And add to it like Dwight said, NASA's track record for screwing things > up... and yeah, I guess there was a good cause for concern. I could see > it being less of an issue in the past when NASA spent tons and tons of > money on a single probe, but these days, when they seem hell bent on > getting the cost under that of a VW Bug, I would expect more accidents to > occur. > > -chris > From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 12 14:47:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 2003, chris wrote: > So is this the power supply all those whiney people were bitching about > NASA trying to put into a Mars probe? They were all afraid the probe > would explode during launch and be ground zero of a nuclear blast (or > some other most likely vagely based on reality doomsday outcome activists > are notorious for). Well, considering the recent catastrophes in NASA's record, I don't think these concerns are exaggerated. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 12 14:53:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Need HP-UX System Security manual ($$$) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030512154610.1277cea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Sellam, I just had one on E-bay. Go look at and see if that's what you're looking for. Joe At 11:10 AM 5/12/03 -0700, you wrote: >I am in need of the HP-UX System Security manual from 1989. I don't know >if that is the exact title but it's what I was given. > >If someone's got it then please come forward. There is a bounty for this. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 12 14:54:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: <1052610903.7657.74.camel@formula1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030512155301.0fe7c82a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:55 AM 5/11/03 +0100, you wrote: >I spent last weekend at the European Vintage Computer Fair >(www.vcfe.org) in Munich. I didn't take anything along for display >myself, but spent the time looking at what the others had brought. > >I guess my favourites were the CP/M portables, since I haven't played >with one for years. Gaby Chaudry (www.gaby.de) had brought along a >Kaypro and an Osborne 1. I'm not sure how we ever survived with the >tiny screen on the latter. FWIW, the Osborne CRT were surplus IBM 5100 CRTs! They were a major reason that AO could build the Osbornes as cheap as he did. Joe From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 14:56:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts Message-ID: <200305121954.MAA03399@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Kapteyn, Rob" > >I think RTG stands for "Radioactive Thermal Generation" or something like that. > >It is a hunk of plutonium that, on its own, glows at a high temperature. >Since the temperature of space is near absolute zero, there is a large temperature difference. >A relatively simple, dependable thermocouple generates electrical power from this temperature difference, >making a really long-lasting, dependable battery -- but not of the sort you want in your kid's toys :-) Hi At least I know for sure that the Cassini uses a linear Stirling engine and not thermocouples. These are much more efficient at producing electricity with a thermal source. The linear ones can use magnetic bearings and don't have wear factors to worry about. They can also be controlled to give a more constant power output by changing the efficiency as the radioactive source runs down. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 12 15:07:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: id this HP 1000 CCA - HP 5061-3432 Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030512160528.0f2f5bca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Found another HP 1000 today :-) It has three CCAs that I can't identify. They're all PN 5061-3432. Besides the usual TTL logic they have the following socketed ICs; 8 4116 memories, one EPROM and the following Zilog ICs; (2) Z8430A PS, (2) Z8410A PS, Z8400A PS, Z8442A PS. Anybody know what these are? Joe From allain at panix.com Mon May 12 15:14:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: <20030512191234.1553.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003101c318c0$758454a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I did some looking and Sun just wants to sell Solaris 8 and 9 (incompat. w/ Sparc-2), plus I saw some list prices for the sw up to $36,000. No good for me. You suggest that 2.6 is still available (32 meg in this machine), but where. Can I get yet one more clue? THX so far. John A. From aek at spies.com Mon May 12 15:19:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: id this HP 1000 CCA - HP 5061-3432 Message-ID: <200305122019.h4CKJ3BQ021557@spies.com> HP 12792A 8-Channel Asynchrounous Muliplexer. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 15:30:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. In-Reply-To: <003101c318c0$758454a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20030512202903.97533.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > I did some looking and Sun just wants to sell Solaris 8 > and 9 (incompat. w/ Sparc-2), plus I saw some list prices > for the sw up to $36,000. No good for me. You suggest > that 2.6 is still available (32 meg in this machine), but where. > Can I get yet one more clue? > THX so far. I did not suggest old versions were widely available, but you can find distro kits on eBay from time to time. It's true that full-on Solaris licenses are many kilobucks. You can frequently get the latest version for home use (one processor-per-box limit which you satisfy) for free or at most the cost of media. I purchased originals from Sun that way for Solaris 7 and 8. The problem is that they don't sell anything older than the current version and you can't use the current version. Best option is eBay or mailing lists like this one. I do not have any spare copies, sorry. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon May 12 15:31:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: <013e01c318bc$dab1a7a0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> References: <013e01c318bc$dab1a7a0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <200305121629.42503.jcwren@jcwren.com> You *really* don't want to go there about "going to the moon didn't do anything for us". You have *no* idea how many technologies, chemicals, and devices used daily are a direct spin-off of the space programs. I'm willing to apply the same theory I use for anti-animal testing people: "We'll just take away every product you use that's been tested on animals. And see how long you survive, particularly if you take any regularly scheduled medications." I'm for response testing on animals, but not 20,000 rabbits killed to prove that Mabeline Lipstick Color #1235 is safe. --John On Monday 12 May 2003 15:29 pm, TeoZ wrote: > NASA used to have all the money they ever wanted, untill people got bored > with space and other sections of the government got the extra money. > > It looks to me like NASA has too many projects it funnels limited amounts > of money into, and the management places more concern on meeting deadlines > then safety. Ignoring danger warnings from designers on o-ring seals, not > spending the money to check the last shuttle in space for damage via spy > satelite pictures. > > To be honest the manned missions to the moon didnt really help us out much > (except to force us to make the technology to get there). We would learn > more, and probably find a payback from exploring the deep oceans (maybe > even mining them) then having somebody land on mars and then hop back on > the spaceship to earch with a few rocks (a probe is better suited for > this). > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "chris" > To: "Classic Computer" > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 3:15 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts > > > >Plutonium is an extremely toxic metal. 1 microgram will kill you damn > > >quick. > > >Plus it's readily absorbed by tissue, which means everywhere you have a > > Pu > > > >speck, you're irradiating tissue with ionizing radiation in a few > > centimeter > > > >radius. Not good for a long term outlook. > > > > Ok, that answered the other question I just posed, that is, how dangerous > > is it. > > > > Sounds like its some pretty nasty stuff so an explosion WOULD be of > > actual concern. > > > > > Incidently, the tree huggers worries on this matter are not completely > > >unfounded. Because of launch weight issues, the shielding material is > > not > > > >really designed to survive reentry. > > > > And add to it like Dwight said, NASA's track record for screwing things > > up... and yeah, I guess there was a good cause for concern. I could see > > it being less of an issue in the past when NASA spent tons and tons of > > money on a single probe, but these days, when they seem hell bent on > > getting the cost under that of a VW Bug, I would expect more accidents to > > occur. > > > > -chris > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 15:34:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <3EBC1561.1353.4F4B076C@localhost> from "Stan Sieler" at May 9, 3 08:53:53 pm Message-ID: > A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's the > oldest one I know of. It's nowhwere near the oldest computer still in use (since it's based on a microprocessor), but when I need to program 1702s, I have to use my Intellec MCS8i, since that's the only machine I have with a suitable programmer. And that machine is older than an Imsai. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 15:34:08 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: <1052610903.7657.74.camel@formula1.demon.co.uk> from "Lawrence Wilkinson" at May 11, 3 00:55:04 am Message-ID: > Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me > realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved, > and then work out what to do with it. I could store everything I've > ever written on an 8-bit computer in a corner of my existing hard drive > and not even notice it was there. I've got to dig out all those KCS > cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get > them transferred. I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable long after your hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The originals have a much longer life... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 15:34:16 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Stone age? (was: George Morrow died Wed May 7th 2003 In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 11, 3 06:25:19 pm Message-ID: > On Mon, 12 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Assuming you're back in the Stone Age, a crystal receiver is proably not > > the best thing to build. You need to consider the transmitter as well, > > and a crystal set is only really useful if you have a modulated > > transmitter. > > Ya know, maybe I'm just pessimistic, but if we suddenly got plunged back > into the stone age, I think we'd be so occupied trying to find some edible > food and fending off the bands of raving marauders and packs of wild I would agree. However, the original question was about recreating modern technology... > animals that we wouldn't have much time for radio entertainment. Err, a coherer is only suitabel for receiving on/off signals at a low data rate (it needs to be mechanically reset after each pulse), so it's hardly suitable for entertainment-type radio. -tony From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 15:47:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <200305122044.NAA03450@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's the >> oldest one I know of. > >It's nowhwere near the oldest computer still in use (since it's based on >a microprocessor), but when I need to program 1702s, I have to use my >Intellec MCS8i, since that's the only machine I have with a suitable >programmer. And that machine is older than an Imsai. > > >-tony > Hi I use my 4004 system for 1702A's. I suspect that is at least one or two years older than your MCS8i. Dwight From arcarlini at iee.org Mon May 12 15:51:01 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c318c8$150830d0$cb87fe3e@athlon> > I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable > long after your > hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on > transfering reliable > storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with > photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and > DVDs. The > originals have a much longer life... There are two reasons I do that sort of thing (although not with photographs or film). Partly because my older media is unreliable (floppies mostly) and partly because once I have something in digital form (along with some kind of MD5SUM or whatver) I can easily move forward with new, denser storage media. So I can keep more stuff within easy reach (less tecking to the attic, or garage or storage). Of course, I also keep the originals around, so there's no harm done. As for film, I believe that many of the early ones are rotting away and there is a race on to try and transfer them to more stable media. So not *all* film is long-lived. Just as the lowish quality paper used for the typical handbook will become yellowed and brittle over the years. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 15:53:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media (was Re: VCFe Munich report) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512205135.56751.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me > > realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved... > > I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable long after your > hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable > storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with > photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The > originals have a much longer life... True, but I doubt that Hans or any of the rest of us are planning on trashing the originals after they've been copied. I have been (slowly) copying off old TU-58 carts with VMS 3.x and VMS 4.x distros on them because, unlike paper tape, they _do_ degrade with age. With the data backed up, I can feed the bits into a TU-58 emulator or even into a real TU-58 drive to keep dependent machines (11/730, 11/750, etc.) bootable. I think the thing to remember is, just because you've transferred something from original media to "modern" (for the moment) media, you aren't off the hook forever. Those same copies will have to be copied to "modern" media at some point in the future. Depending on the original media in question, it might or might not be more sensible to go back to the originals (if possible). I have boxes of paper tape. I have probably had one or two tear in 20+ years of using them (a floating point tape for the PDP-8 that snagged in an ASR-33 comes to mind immediately). At some point, I plan to back all of it up to "modern" disk, but it's at the bottom of the pile - TU-58s are at the top, followed by RK05 and RL02 packs, then DECtape-I and, finally, the papertape - they are prioritized by long-term stablity. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 12 15:56:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report Message-ID: <200305122054.NAA03457@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me >> realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved, >> and then work out what to do with it. I could store everything I've >> ever written on an 8-bit computer in a corner of my existing hard drive >> and not even notice it was there. I've got to dig out all those KCS >> cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get >> them transferred. > >I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable long after your >hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable >storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with >photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The >originals have a much longer life... > >-tony > Hi Tony I'm more interested in getting the information spread to multiple locations, regardless of the media. Even paper tape burns up in a fire. The only real hope is a lot of copies spread around the world. This is why I've made my efforts for the Poly88 and I'm doing similar for the H89. Multiple media and multiple locations is the only hope. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 12 16:07:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: id this HP 1000 CCA - HP 5061-3432 In-Reply-To: <200305122019.h4CKJ3BQ021557@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030512170151.0f4f6a9e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:19 PM 5/12/03 -0700, Al wrote: >HP 12792A 8-Channel Asynchrounous Muliplexer. > Good guess but I don't think so. I have an 8-ch MUX in another 1000. I pulled it and checked it and it's similar but not exactly the same. I THINK this is one of the Programmable Direct Connect Serial interfaces (12825A). That's what I found on page 71-18 of the CE manual on your site anyway. I THINK this is the card that goes with two of the manuals that were in the list that I sent you. BTW is there a reason that the search feature of Acrobat doesn't work on the docs on your website? It took a lot of looking to finally find this PN. Oh well, I've been meaning to read that CE manual anyway :-) Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 12 16:14:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts References: <013e01c318bc$dab1a7a0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> <200305121629.42503.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <019701c318ca$50f99460$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> What part of my message did I not make clear. Having a man on the moon and bringing some rocks back didnt do much for us. I do agree getting there invented alot of technology , systems, discoveries, materials etc and stated as much. I also think most of the technology was used to just get man in space for any period of time. If we went to the moon 1000 times and just walked around and picked up rocks would we learn anything more (and would the cost be worth it) then just going a few times? ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C. Wren" To: Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts > You *really* don't want to go there about "going to the moon didn't do > anything for us". You have *no* idea how many technologies, chemicals, and > devices used daily are a direct spin-off of the space programs. > > I'm willing to apply the same theory I use for anti-animal testing people: > "We'll just take away every product you use that's been tested on animals. > And see how long you survive, particularly if you take any regularly > scheduled medications." I'm for response testing on animals, but not 20,000 > rabbits killed to prove that Mabeline Lipstick Color #1235 is safe. > > --John > > On Monday 12 May 2003 15:29 pm, TeoZ wrote: > > > NASA used to have all the money they ever wanted, untill people got bored > > with space and other sections of the government got the extra money. > > > > It looks to me like NASA has too many projects it funnels limited amounts > > of money into, and the management places more concern on meeting deadlines > > then safety. Ignoring danger warnings from designers on o-ring seals, not > > spending the money to check the last shuttle in space for damage via spy > > satelite pictures. > > > > To be honest the manned missions to the moon didnt really help us out much > > (except to force us to make the technology to get there). We would learn > > more, and probably find a payback from exploring the deep oceans (maybe > > even mining them) then having somebody land on mars and then hop back on > > the spaceship to earch with a few rocks (a probe is better suited for > > this). > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "chris" > > To: "Classic Computer" > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 3:15 PM > > Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts > > > > > >Plutonium is an extremely toxic metal. 1 microgram will kill you damn > > > >quick. > > > >Plus it's readily absorbed by tissue, which means everywhere you have a > > > > Pu > > > > > >speck, you're irradiating tissue with ionizing radiation in a few > > > > centimeter > > > > > >radius. Not good for a long term outlook. > > > > > > Ok, that answered the other question I just posed, that is, how dangerous > > > is it. > > > > > > Sounds like its some pretty nasty stuff so an explosion WOULD be of > > > actual concern. > > > > > > > Incidently, the tree huggers worries on this matter are not completely > > > >unfounded. Because of launch weight issues, the shielding material is > > > > not > > > > > >really designed to survive reentry. > > > > > > And add to it like Dwight said, NASA's track record for screwing things > > > up... and yeah, I guess there was a good cause for concern. I could see > > > it being less of an issue in the past when NASA spent tons and tons of > > > money on a single probe, but these days, when they seem hell bent on > > > getting the cost under that of a VW Bug, I would expect more accidents to > > > occur. > > > > > > -chris > > > From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Mon May 12 16:15:01 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Leaving the Hobby References: <7924822322.20030512192207@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <006c01c318cb$67c690c0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> I could see it coming ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Sharp" To: Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: Leaving the Hobby > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. I will not > participate in any discussion of the reason. The decision has been made. > > What remains is to divest myself of my remaining collection. Part of that > process is underway in private dealings with certain individuals. The rest > of my collection will be offered in lots on eBay. If you don't like that, > tough. I believe that eBay is the best way to get the word out about > available items, the best way to deal fairly with prospective takers, and > the best way to ensure that the items go to good homes. The first set of > auctions will begin in the next few days. I will consider trades for other > items; a list of things I am seeking will accompany each auction. > > I will continue my duties as list moderator for some time. Jay will see to > the long-term continuation of list services. > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 12 16:57:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Cool new find! Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030512175627.48b74586@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Went to one of my favorite scrounging places today and found that they had a forest of HP cabinents! They had all been dumped off of a truck and were piled up and leaning on each other like a bunch of dominoes. I stood up as many as I could and nearly lost three fingers in the process when a HP tape drive swung open and scissored on my hand! Luckily someone else was there to grab the drive and swing it closed. But it was worth it! I found a lot of HP 7970E tape drives, a bunch of HP 7912 disk drives (and some of them even say that their heads were locked down!), a HP Multiprogrammer, a bunch of HP power supplies AND (drum roll!) ONE LOADED HP 1000! This beast is a 2117F and has the floating point unit, an expansion chassis, a 13037D (MAC?) disk drive interface, a 7906D disk drive and a 7970 Tape drive and even the battery power backup. The computer is LOADED. It has 3x 256k (words) high performance memory boards, 2x 512k HS error correcting memory baords, an ECC memory controller, a I/O Buffer card, two sets of 7970 tape drive controller cards, two Line Printer controller cards, a time base card, a 13037 interface card, an HP-IB interface and three BACI (communications) cards and the manadatory MEM, DC PC and Mem Protect cards. The expansion chassis has three programmable direct connect serial interfaces, a BUS I/O card, and two more BACI cards. I got EVERYTHING that wasn't nailed down including the cables! The CPU has the followoing Loader ROMs installed; 264x Terminal, "12992-50000", 79xx Disk and 7905/20 Disk. Does anyone know what the "12992-50000" is? 12992 is the right pre-fix for the loader rom PNs but I've heard of a -50000 ROM and it's not listed in any of the docs that I can find. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 17:48:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: id this HP 1000 CCA - HP 5061-3432 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030512160528.0f2f5bca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe" at May 12, 3 04:05:28 pm Message-ID: > Found another HP 1000 today :-) It has three CCAs that I can't identify. > They're all PN 5061-3432. Besides the usual TTL logic they have the > following socketed ICs; 8 4116 memories, one EPROM and the following Zilog > ICs; (2) Z8430A PS, (2) Z8410A PS, Z8400A PS, Z8442A PS. Anybody know what > these are? I can tell you what the chips are.. They're standard Z80 family devices. Z8430A = Z80A CTC (Counter Timer) Z8410A = Z80A DMA (Direct Memory Access controller) Z8400A = Z80A CPU Z8442A = Z80A SIO (Serial interface) This sounds like some intellegent comms board... -tony From aek at spies.com Mon May 12 18:05:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: id this HP 1000 CCA - HP 5061-3432 Message-ID: <200305122305.h4CN5tKm014359@spies.com> BTW is there a reason that the search feature of Acrobat doesn't work on the docs on your website? __ Search assumes the document has been OCRed From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 18:23:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media (was Re: VCFe Munich report) In-Reply-To: <20030512205135.56751.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 12, 3 01:51:35 pm Message-ID: > > hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable > > storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with > > photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The > > originals have a much longer life... > > True, but I doubt that Hans or any of the rest of us are planning on > trashing the originals after they've been copied. Maybe not on this list, but I have seen it happen far too often elsewhere. People think the latest/greatest storage media must be more reliable that something that's rather more ancient... > > I have been (slowly) copying off old TU-58 carts with VMS 3.x and VMS 4.x > distros on them because, unlike paper tape, they _do_ degrade with age. Equally, there are old storage devices that do decay with age, sure... > I think the thing to remember is, just because you've transferred > something from original media to "modern" (for the moment) media, you > aren't off the hook forever. Those same copies will have to be > copied to "modern" media at some point in the future. Depending on I would never want to rely on this happening, simply because it won't always happen. People forget, or they assume tbat nobody will ever what 'that old file'. And then it's lost for ever. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 12 19:41:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: 5 pin DIN (180 degree) serial port? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anybody happen to know the pinout of the serial port of the "Storey Systems PROM programmer"? Dallas Texas It has a 180 degree 5 pin DIN connector. What machines used that for serial? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 12 20:04:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: id this HP 1000 CCA - HP 5061-3432 In-Reply-To: <200305122305.h4CN5tKm014359@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030512210303.49078a94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:05 PM 5/12/03 -0700, you wrote: >BTW is there a reason that the search feature of Acrobat doesn't work on >the docs on your website? > >__ > >Search assumes the document has been OCRed > I thought it must be soemthing like that but I'm not familar enough with Adobe and Acrobat to know for sure. I've tried OCR'ing stuff and finally gave up in disgust! Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 12 21:05:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media (was Re: VCFe Munich report) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 13, 2003 12:17:38 AM Message-ID: <200305130204.h4D24EkD021637@shell1.aracnet.com> > > True, but I doubt that Hans or any of the rest of us are planning on > > trashing the originals after they've been copied. > > Maybe not on this list, but I have seen it happen far too often > elsewhere. People think the latest/greatest storage media must be more > reliable that something that's rather more ancient... For some of the stuff I'm copying to more modern media, I have to keep the originals, even if it becomes unreadable, in order to be legal. In some cases I've had to archive the original material, and then reuse the original Media (RL02's come to mind). > > I think the thing to remember is, just because you've transferred > > something from original media to "modern" (for the moment) media, you > > aren't off the hook forever. Those same copies will have to be > > copied to "modern" media at some point in the future. Depending on > > I would never want to rely on this happening, simply because it won't > always happen. People forget, or they assume tbat nobody will ever what > 'that old file'. And then it's lost for ever. I'm trying the following with my archive of DEC stuff. 1. I have the archive on my fileserver (I prefer keeping copies on two different spinning hard drives). 2. I have two backup copies, one I keep, and one my parents keep. 3. I update #2 when additions are made to #1, keeping the previous backups. Zane From jamesl at bestweb.net Mon May 12 21:07:00 2003 From: jamesl at bestweb.net (James E. LaBarre) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC052B2.9070703@bestweb.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me >>realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved, >>and then work out what to do with it. I could store everything I've >>ever written on an 8-bit computer in a corner of my existing hard drive >>and not even notice it was there. I've got to dig out all those KCS >>cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get >>them transferred. > > > I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable long after your > hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable > storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with > photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The > originals have a much longer life... A couple of reasons; one is to have a copy to use, so you don't wear out the original, and a backup in case the original gets damaged anyway. That's part of why I'm transferring my vinyl to ogg files. I'm hardly going to be getting rid of the originals, but electronic copies mean I won't be wearing out unreplacable disks. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Mon May 12 22:04:00 2003 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media (was Re: VCFe Munich report) References: <200305130204.h4D24EkD021637@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3EC0606D.7E9C4C10@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > In some cases I've had to archive the original material, and then reuse the > original Media (RL02's come to mind). Jerome Fine replies: However, if you retain the original Media, then you can always copy the original material back to the original Media if that ever becomes necessary and there will never be a problem - although I presume that the CIA could figure it out if they ever wanted to. > I'm trying the following with my archive of DEC stuff. > 1. I have the archive on my fileserver (I prefer keeping copies on two > different spinning hard drives). > 2. I have two backup copies, one I keep, and one my parents keep. > 3. I update #2 when additions are made to #1, keeping the previous backups. I have also added one additional aspect to saving RL02 images when I want to keep a backup in RT-11. Since the maximum size of an MSCP device is 32 MBytes and an RL02 image is 10 MBytes, ONLY 3 will fit into one MSCP device. HOWEVER, I really can't see any point in keeping a full RL02 image when in many (most) cases, the latter portion of an RL02 image is all zeros - especially when an RL02 was used as a distribution media. In RT-11, that adds a lot of useless blocks. The solution I have used is to retain ONLY the blocks with useful information and discard all the blocks filled with zeros starting with block 20449 and working backward until a non-zero block is encountered. In many cases, this means that I am able to put between 15 an 20 RL02 images into one MSCP RT-11 partition without any loss of information. One other suggestion for those who are saving the RL02 images to a CD. Make the total number of blocks saved an exact multiple of 4 blocks - on a CD, every new file starts on a sector boundary. This suggestion is very useful when the following paragraph is considered. Also for a CD, I am able to set up an RT-11 file directory for at least RT-11 partition zero for all of the files copied to the CD under the ISO9660 file structure. I am attempting to find a simple way to do the same for files that are in non-zero RT-11 partitions on the CD, but thus far have not been very successful. However, as long as the total size of all the files saved to the CD is less than 300 MBytes, there is no problem in duplicating the files and copying then to RT-11 partitions at the end of the CD. Tim Shoppa did this with the RT-11 Freeware CD. It is also possible to produce an RT-11 bootable CD using a DSK file that is totally in RT-11 partition zero which was originally placed in the CD under the ISO9660 file structure - assuming that the DSK file contains a set of RT-11 bootable files that can run using an MSCP controller - since I don't know of any CDROM drives on a real DEC PDP-11 that are not SCSI. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 12 22:16:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:36 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: <200305121629.42503.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 2003, J.C. Wren wrote: > You *really* don't want to go there about "going to the moon didn't do > anything for us". You have *no* idea how many technologies, chemicals, and > devices used daily are a direct spin-off of the space programs. Velcro and Tang (to name just two)! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon May 12 22:56:01 2003 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts References: <200305121841.LAA03360@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <009601c31903$68ef37d0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 4:11 AM Subject: Re: OT: Voyager watts > What most where worried about was just the accidental > spread of radioactive material in the atmosphere. I don't know > about you but I don't like breathing that stuff if I don't > have to. The problem is that NASA doesn't have a good track > record for using common sense to avoid accidents. > I'm still in favor of them using the radioactive power sources > for the probes, I just wish it was someone else determining > when and how it was safe to launch them. When Apollo 13 had 'a problem', they used the LEM as a 'life boat' to conserve CM resources for re-entry. This meant the LEM burned up on re-entry also. There was an RTG on the LEM (In a seismograph IIRC) that was meant to be left on the moon. ISTR there were some concerns voiced by the greenie types at the time. IIRC, it was considered that the radioisotope fuel element would survive re-entry as it was encapsulated in a graphite sheath. I don't recall the reason for the sheath, I *think* it was part of the normal design of such things, but I'm twitching on the half remembered idea that it was to ensure the fuel element survived re-entry intact in the event of an accident and not burn up and disperse and thereby cause contamination to be spread over a significant area. The re-entry path was over deep ocean and it if the fuel element survived intact it's at the bottom of the ocean somewhere deep. Cheers Geoff in OZ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 22:56:16 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513035518.12478.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 2003, J.C. Wren wrote: > > > You *really* don't want to go there about "going to the moon didn't do > > anything for us". You have *no* idea how many technologies, chemicals, > > and devices used daily are a direct spin-off of the space programs. > > Velcro and Tang (to name just two)! Yep, a growing boy needs his 'tang. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From nampcjr at yahoo.com Mon May 12 23:21:00 2003 From: nampcjr at yahoo.com (Brian Heise) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PCjr with Racore HDD expansion - setup help! Message-ID: <20030513042001.5045.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Hello to you all with a PCjr still lying around dormant in the dust! I have recently aquired a Racore HDD expansion chassis (Model 1500/1501) . There was no doubleheight sidecar with it, but I have normal and DMA extras to install. A gentlemen from "Computer Reset" believed the system used the DMA sidecar, but for the life of me, I can not get power to the unit. The expansion chassis does not have the standard power supply found on the floppy units. It has, instead, a powerboard, but where the power input would be on the floppy units, there is instead a serial port.If anyone has the setup instructions for this model or knows off hand how to set it up, Id appreciate the help in getting this neat "extra" setup and working. Thanks Brian The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 13 00:40:00 2003 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. In-Reply-To: <003101c318c0$758454a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001001c31911$cfde59e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > I did some looking and Sun just wants to sell Solaris 8 > and 9 (incompat. w/ Sparc-2), plus I saw some list prices > for the sw up to $36,000. No good for me. You suggest > that 2.6 is still available (32 meg in this machine), but where. > Can I get yet one more clue? Interesting ... old versions of Solaris* are almost always available on eBay in the UK; yet a search of eBay for items available to USA currently only shows one copy - and that is in England (in spite of being listed under USA). At ?5 the price is right - but the postage across the herring pond may be prohibitive. We are also seing lots of SS10s and 20s at low prices ... 5s tend to get a bit more and Ultras are almost always over ?100. 2.3, 2.6, 7, and 8 (and 9) occur fairly frequently - 9 can fetch ?40-50, earlier versions tend to be much less expensive. Andy From jrasite at eoni.com Tue May 13 01:02:01 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts References: Message-ID: <3EC08A2A.1020307@eoni.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Velcro and Tang (to name just two)! > And my personal 'can't-do-without' space technology: battery powered tools. Couldn't live without my cordless drill. Jim From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue May 13 02:21:00 2003 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: OT: Voyager watts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c31920$034187e0$8e43cd18@D73KSM11> > On Mon, 12 May 2003, J.C. Wren wrote: > > > You *really* don't want to go there about "going to the > moon didn't > > do anything for us". You have *no* idea how many technologies, > > chemicals, and devices used daily are a direct spin-off of > the space > > programs. > > Velcro and Tang (to name just two)! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival For your nostalgic listening pleasure, the "Tang song": http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/tangsong.mp3 "Do the moon walk like the astronauts . . . " -W From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue May 13 03:04:00 2003 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PS/1 for sale. Offers invited. Message-ID: <001b01c3185c$f8c7b000$85f5f1c3@computer4> Hi, A charity I do some work for has an IBM PS/1 they would wamt to sell. 80386/16. 40 Mb HD, color monitor, dutch handbook. Location Arnhem, The Netherlands. Wim From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Tue May 13 08:02:01 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Cool new find! References: <3.0.6.16.20030512175627.48b74586@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EC0EC35.1E2B9534@comcast.net> Joe wrote: > > Went to one of my favorite scrounging places today and found that they > had a forest of HP cabinents! > ... The computer is LOADED... I got EVERYTHING that > wasn't nailed down including the cables!... Hot damn... Nice score. So, just how many cabinets were there that you got? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Tue May 13 08:25:01 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: <001001c31911$cfde59e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <3EC0F183.645BFB5E@comcast.net> Andy Holt wrote: > > > I did some looking and Sun just wants to sell Solaris 8 > > and 9 (incompat. w/ Sparc-2), plus I saw some list prices > > for the sw up to $36,000. No good for me. You suggest > > that 2.6 is still available (32 meg in this machine), but where. > > Can I get yet one more clue? > > Interesting ... > > 2.3, 2.6, 7, and 8 (and 9) occur fairly frequently - 9 can fetch ?40-50, > earlier versions tend to be much less expensive. > > Andy Well, browsing around Sun's website, I found that you can download Solaris 8 and 9... http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/binaries/get.html http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/8/index.html Prices: Download Solaris 9/Sparc - free Download Solaris 9/x86 - US$20 Download Solaris 8/Both - US$20 Solaris 9 is through the Free Binary License program, and Sol 8 used to be free; I'm not sure if it still is in the Free Binary program. Well that's how I downloaded 8 for x86 and Sparc, and 9 for my Ultra... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 08:41:01 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030511221635.033d74e0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <010501c31669$e05eeb40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <3EC103D4.801.148B831E@localhost> Acquire a PDP11/34 system recently (11/34 CPU, RX02 dual drive, 2 off RL01 drives) ; before shipping it was running to the point of displaying an @ sign on the terminal happily (it didn't boot from DY as it should have but I thought I'd address that once it was back home). However, on putting it back together in my shed, the beast shows no front panel lights (not even DC OK), no LEDs on any cards & no @. The fans whir when powering on ( Card configuration is : 1 AF M8266 KD11EA-control 2 AF M8265 KD11EA data path 3 AF M7840 KE11-B blackened/hot bits of PCB round resistor DIPs? 4 AB M9132 (soldered wires to FPanel) CF M7859 KY11-LB J1 to (FPanel) 5 AF M7891 128K*18 MOS mem 6 AF "Dr11 PHI733-1" card, unknown 7 AF M7762 RL11 controller 8 CF M7856 SLU/RTC option 9 AB M9032 terminator CF M8256 RX211 interface If I want to take out the RL01 & RX02 controllers & the unknown card in slot 6, do I just leave the cards out (I'm a QBUS guy, don't know much yet about UNIBUS and any daisy chaining DMA/INT signals etc) or will I need some grant controllers of some form (I may have some in the PDP11/44 system I have awaiting restoration)? Any pointers for what to check out & in what order? ta greg From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 08:56:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <3EC103D4.801.148B831E@localhost> Message-ID: <20030513135514.65620.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Greg Elkin wrote: > Acquire a PDP11/34 system recently... before shipping it was running.. > ...on putting it back together in my shed, the beast shows no > front panel lights (not even DC OK)... The fans whir when powering on Hmm... How far did you dismantle it for shipping? Did you haul it or did you leave it in the hands of a common carrier? > If I want to take out the RL01 & RX02 controllers & the unknown card > in slot 6, do I just leave the cards out (I'm a QBUS guy, don't know > much yet about UNIBUS and any daisy chaining DMA/INT signals etc) or > will I need some grant controllers of some form Just like the Qbus, the Unibus has several signals that need granted. More, in fact. If you know that the NPR jumper is in place (i.e., it's an empty slot or had a *non-DMA* peripheral), you can use a G727 single- height grant card. If you pull a DMA peripheral (RL11, for sure, probably the RX211 as well), you must either install a dual-height grant card (G7273 or a Software Results GC747) _or_ put the NPR wire back on the backplane and use a G727. Now... the "good" news is that this only affects interrupts and DMA requests. AFAIK, console ODT (the '@' prompt) has nothing to do wth interrupts. You should be able to stuff the CPU, a DL-11 and little else (probably a bus terminator at the end of the CPU backplane, and maybe some memory) and get the prompt when you power on. First order of business, though, is to check your voltages. The fact that you have no DC OK light is a blatant symptom. It could be because of a short, or perhaps something got rattled loose in a PSU during shipping. Investigate the PSU fully before moving onto the cards. Reduce your system to the system backplane only (if you have any DD11-DKs or the like). Look into the backplane slots themselves with a flashlight (for a washer or other conductor that might have dropped in there). Check the back of the backplane for any bent pins that might be causing a short. Disconnect the backplane from the PSU and check it for shorts electrically. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue May 13 08:59:01 2003 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PS/1 for sale. Offers invited. Message-ID: <11.111b73b3.2bf253ca@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2003 4:04:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hofmanwb@worldonline.nl writes: << A charity I do some work for has an IBM PS/1 they would wamt to sell. 80386/16. 40 Mb HD, color monitor, dutch handbook. Location Arnhem, The Netherlands. >> That sounds like the 2121 model which uses the display to power the CPU. Worth maybe $20USD From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 09:02:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. In-Reply-To: <3EC0F183.645BFB5E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030513140042.55661.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Andy > > Well, browsing around Sun's website, I found that you can download > Solaris 8 and 9... > http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/binaries/get.html > http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/8/index.html > > Prices: > Download Solaris 9/Sparc - free > Download Solaris 9/x86 - US$20 > Download Solaris 8/Both - US$20 > > Solaris 9 is through the Free Binary License program, and Sol 8 > used to be free; I'm not sure if it still is in the Free Binary program. I think "used to" is the operative phrase. Sun tends to want you to upgrade, including adding a little $20 persuasion in this case. Also, they didn't really want to make Solaris 9 for x86, but scuttlebutt is that a large customer leaned on them for it. Somewhere on the site, you can even download a PDF with the correct labels. You have to use the ones that are aligned vertically along the center axis of the paper (as opposed to the ones with the labels in opposite corners), but I dropped a sheet with those puppies in an HP LaserJet 4550 and it cranked out some fine, professional-looking lables for me (which seriously beat a scrawl from a Sharpie). In any case, neither download will help you with a SPARC2. Your best bet is to borrow a 2.6 kit or pick one up on eBay. If you have any friends who do Solaris for a living, they might have a 2.6 kit gathering dust on a shelf. OTOH, I'm sure I'd be surprised at the number of systems that were shipped with 2.6 that are still running it, so maybe that distro isn't gathering dust yet. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From classiccmp at crash.com Tue May 13 09:45:00 2003 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question Message-ID: <200305131444.h4DEhtRS011182@io.crash.com> Peter Turnbull wrote: . > 1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?) Jochen Kunz responded: . > Sounds like a very nifty device that can turn a (bunch of) SCSI > disk(s) into a (bunch of) DSSI disk(s). I received the following bundle last week: BA356-KC StorageWorks box/shelf BA35X-MG 8-bit SCSI interface (dual uDB50's) HSD05-AA DSSI/SCSI adapter Indeed, this is expected to allow me to use some nice SCSI SBBs from the DSSI bus in the VAX 3400 in the basement. First though, I've got to scare up a DSSI cable and terminator... So far as I can tell the HSD05 will not do the RAID tricks that an HSD10 is capable of. No idea then what an HSD30 can do - maybe just faster version of HSD10? --S. From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Tue May 13 11:11:01 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: <20030513140042.55661.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EC1180D.9A4EE440@comcast.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Andy > > > > Well, browsing around Sun's website, I found that you can download > > Solaris 8 and 9... > > http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/binaries/get.html > > http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/8/index.html > > > > Prices: > > Download Solaris 9/Sparc - free > > Download Solaris 9/x86 - US$20 > > Download Solaris 8/Both - US$20 > > > > Solaris 9 is through the Free Binary License program, and Sol 8 > > used to be free; I'm not sure if it still is in the Free Binary program. > > I think "used to" is the operative phrase. Sun tends to want you to > upgrade, including adding a little $20 persuasion in this case. Also, > they didn't really want to make Solaris 9 for x86, but scuttlebutt is > that a large customer leaned on them for it. Seems that way. Good thing I keep all the CDs I burn. :) I wonder if I still have the ISO files I downloaded for 8 & 9 > Somewhere on the site, you can even download a PDF with the correct > labels. You have to use the ones that are aligned vertically along > the center axis of the paper (as opposed to the ones with the labels > in opposite corners), but I dropped a sheet with those puppies in an > HP LaserJet 4550 and it cranked out some fine, professional-looking > lables for me (which seriously beat a scrawl from a Sharpie). > Eh, I just used those PDF labels to make the CD case insert. Sharpie on the disc is good enough for me... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dave at naffnet.org.uk Tue May 13 11:59:00 2003 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: <20030513140042.55661.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> <3EC1180D.9A4EE440@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3EC123FE.3050702@naffnet.org.uk> David Woyciesjes wrote: >Eh, I just used those PDF labels to make the CD case insert. Sharpie on >the disc is good enough for me... > > For 8, it was a condition of the license that one *had* to use the labels on the CDs themselves. IIRC, this condition went away in 9. I wonder just what proportion of the 8 distributions were correctly labelled... Cheers, Dave. From stevenaleach at mac.com Tue May 13 12:17:00 2003 From: stevenaleach at mac.com (Steven Leach) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis Message-ID: <1FE88F8C-8566-11D7-9CBC-000393A2E26E@mac.com> Hello, I know this may be a long shot but I figured I'd try it anyway. I figure there is a good chance that someone on the list may know an old friend of mine, Christopher Willis. I met Chris and his wife Pat (Patricia) on a BBS in southern Ohio. Chris's impressive collection of computers included an Altair 8800B with a Winchester hard disk, two 8 inch drives, and a Televideo 912c terminal. When Chris joined the navy (I believe this was 1996, though it may have been earlier.. hmm.. maybe 94?) He left the Altair system with me which went into storage at my parents house when I left for college, where It still lives (I'm getting ready to recover it and set it up in my new house soon) Other computers in his collection ranged from 8080/z80 boards to various oddball multiuser mini's. At one point (years before I knew him), I know that he had a collection housed in a warehouse (Many of which he ended up losing eventually). Among others, this collection included a UNIVAC. [see why I think someone on the list might know him?] Over the years, I lost contact with Chris and would love to get ahold of him and Pat again. If out there could help me track him down it would be greatly appreciated. From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Tue May 13 12:20:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Sun rises in the east. References: <20030513140042.55661.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> <3EC1180D.9A4EE440@comcast.net> <3EC123FE.3050702@naffnet.org.uk> Message-ID: <3EC12741.1D980BE4@comcast.net> Dave Woodman wrote: > > David Woyciesjes wrote: > > >Eh, I just used those PDF labels to make the CD case insert. Sharpie on > >the disc is good enough for me... > > > > > For 8, it was a condition of the license that one *had* to use the > labels on the CDs themselves. IIRC, this condition went away in 9. > > I wonder just what proportion of the 8 distributions were correctly > labelled... > > Cheers, > > Dave. Really? I didn't know that. Then again, I didn't read the whole license agreement anyway... :) But I did write almost everything that was on the label onto the disc anyway. I didn't feel like going to buy some label sheets and screw around trying to get them lined up right... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 13 13:06:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Cool new find! In-Reply-To: <3EC0EC35.1E2B9534@comcast.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20030512175627.48b74586@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030513135729.3c7f1e54@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:59 AM 5/13/03 -0400, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> Went to one of my favorite scrounging places today and found that they >> had a forest of HP cabinents! >> ... The computer is LOADED... I got EVERYTHING that >> wasn't nailed down including the cables!... > > Hot damn... Nice score. So, just how many cabinets were there that you >got? I got everything from one cabinent and a few bits from the 2nd one. I didn't get the 7970 and 7906 from the second cabinent. There are about 16 - 18 more cabinents that I didn't touch (yet!). Joe > >-- >--- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 13 13:06:36 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: 64 pin PLCC socket Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030513140317.3c77aa54@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A month or so ago someone on the lsit was fussing that they couldn't find any ZIF type PLCC sockets. I picked up a small cirucit board that has a Textool 64 pin PLCC ZIF socket on it. You can have it for the cost of shipping if you need it. The ZIF socket is mounted in a soldered on socket but isn't soldered itself. The socket is bolted to a metal plate that's bolted to the circuit board. You'll have to take ti apart yourself. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 13 13:06:45 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: smartRAID Century and Millenium controller manual Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030513140547.0e5fab34@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Found this while cleaning. Does anyone need it? DPT SmartRAID Century Millenium Intelligent Raid, SCSI & Fibre Channel Controllers User's Manual. Joe From allain at panix.com Tue May 13 14:39:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question References: <200305131444.h4DEhtRS011182@io.crash.com> Message-ID: <004801c31986$f03c46a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Wonder if Storageworks ever offered an SDI/RA* series converter? - - - Concerning DSSI cables, there are two types, one has female IDC/HD type connectors, the other female mini-''centronics'' type. I've not yet heard of an adaptor to go between the two. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 13 16:05:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: from "John Allain" at May 13, 2003 03:36:21 PM Message-ID: <200305132103.h4DL3XoO001564@shell1.aracnet.com> > Wonder if Storageworks ever offered > an SDI/RA* series converter? Now that would be nice! Unfortunatly to the best of my knowledge they didn't. Something like that would be nice for my MicroVAX III. Zane From charlesmorris at direcway.com Tue May 13 17:32:00 2003 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: <5cs2cvg5t3478967ap8g3snlbotfg98us5@4ax.com> > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I get one? > I will not participate in any discussion of the reason. OK, so we will just speculate wildly and discuss it without you ;) > The decision has been made. Sounds like someone decided for you. Best of luck, anyway. When I'm tired of my PDP-8, Sinclair ZX-81, VIC-20, Apple //e, etc. I just put them back in the closet for a while. -Charles From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue May 13 18:20:00 2003 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PCjr software title: MasterType (Bounty) Message-ID: Greetings; I've had a request from a friend who is trying to track down a copy of MasterType for PCjr. He's willing to pay a reasonable bounty for it, but isn't going to pay a Lords ransom. Thanks all; JP Hindin From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 13 18:46:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <5cs2cvg5t3478967ap8g3snlbotfg98us5@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 2003, Charles wrote: > > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > get one? Go out and buy all sorts of old computer crap. Fill every inch of your living space with it. Go broke dragging the stuff around with you every move and trying to find a place to put it. Never go out because you don't have any money (you spent it on old computer crap). When you do go out, it's to the hamfest to buy more old computer crap with the few dollars you have in your account after paying your bills. Enjoy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jpl15 at panix.com Tue May 13 18:51:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 13 May 2003, Charles wrote: > > > > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. > > > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > > get one? > > Go out and buy all sorts of old computer crap. Fill every inch of your > living space with it. Go broke dragging the stuff around with you every Ya forgot one day realizing that you have utterly *no other* friends or associates who are not Komputer Kollector Krazies(tm) just like you. And all your wives/girlfriends/SOs get together at said Festivals, Swapmeets, and Gatherings, and secretly brew up EVIL PLANS.... There's more but I'm runnin' out of Prozac, so I'll shut up now. Cheerz John From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue May 13 19:04:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305132002.22866.jcwren@jcwren.com> You get Prozac with this lifestyle? SIGN ME UP! --John On Tuesday 13 May 2003 19:50 pm, John Lawson wrote: > On Tue, 13 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 13 May 2003, Charles wrote: > > > > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. > > > > > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > > > get one? > > > > Go out and buy all sorts of old computer crap. Fill every inch of your > > living space with it. Go broke dragging the stuff around with you every > > Ya forgot one day realizing that you have utterly *no other* friends or > associates who are not Komputer Kollector Krazies(tm) just like you. > > And all your wives/girlfriends/SOs get together at said Festivals, > Swapmeets, and Gatherings, and secretly brew up EVIL PLANS.... > > > There's more but I'm runnin' out of Prozac, so I'll shut up now. > > > Cheerz > > John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 19:31:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: 5 pin DIN (180 degree) serial port? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 12, 3 05:39:47 pm Message-ID: > Does anybody happen to know the pinout of the serial port of the "Storey > Systems PROM programmer"? Dallas Texas > > It has a 180 degree 5 pin DIN connector. What machines used that for > serial? Several machines have used DIN connectors (of various numbers of pins) as the serial port, but AFAIK there was no standard for them. Well, there was a sort-of standard for 8 pin DIN serial ports, but... Cna you trace inside the programmer to at least determine which lines are inputs and outputs? Finding the ground(s) should be easy too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 19:31:22 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <3EC103D4.801.148B831E@localhost> from "Greg Elkin" at May 13, 3 02:40:20 pm Message-ID: > Acquire a PDP11/34 system recently (11/34 CPU, RX02 dual drive, 2 off > RL01 drives) ; before shipping it was running to the point of > displaying an @ sign on the terminal happily (it didn't boot from DY > as it should have but I thought I'd address that once it was back > home). > > However, on putting it back together in my shed, the beast shows no What did you dismantle for shipping? Is it possibly you forgot to plug something back in inside the 11/34 power supply? > front panel lights (not even DC OK), no LEDs on any cards & no @. The > fans whir when powering on ( OK, so it's getting mains as far as the transformer. HAve you checked the DC power supply rails at the backplane? That would certainly be my first test. > If I want to take out the RL01 & RX02 controllers & the unknown card > in slot 6, do I just leave the cards out (I'm a QBUS guy, don't know > much yet about UNIBUS and any daisy chaining DMA/INT signals etc) or > will I need some grant controllers of some form (I may have some in > the PDP11/44 system I have awaiting restoration)? You do need grant continuity cards in the Unibus. In fact there are 5 grant lines -- 4 BG lines for interrupts and an NPG line for DMA. There are 2 sorts of grant continuity cards. Single-height ones go in slot D only, and connect the 4 BG lines. You have to put a wire-wrap jumper between pins CA1 and CB1 on the back of the backplane for the NPG line. Dual hight ones go into slots C and D and complete all 5 grants. > > Any pointers for what to check out & in what order? (1) check the PSU! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 19:31:32 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <20030513135514.65620.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 13, 3 06:55:14 am Message-ID: > Now... the "good" news is that this only affects interrupts and DMA > requests. AFAIK, console ODT (the '@' prompt) has nothing to do wth > interrupts. You should be able to stuff the CPU, a DL-11 and little > else (probably a bus terminator at the end of the CPU backplane, and > maybe some memory) and get the prompt when you power on. First order There is a problem with this. The standard terminator for the 11/34 contains circuitry to assert SACK if a grant ever gets to the terminator (this should not normally occur, becuase the device asserting the request line (to cause the aribiter to assert the grant line) shouldn't pass the grant on). Anyway, an open grant line looks to the terminator as though a grant is asserted,, so the terminator asserts SACK. Since nothing can be done to remove this 'grant', SACK stays asserted, and the Unibus is locked up. My experience suggests that a small Unibus machine (say 1 or 2 backplanes in the same box) will run without a terminator at the far end of the bus. So to start with it's safe to pull the terminator if you think you have an open grant problem. On these 11/34 machines, an open grant will cause the 'Run' LED to be on, and you won't be able to halt the CPU from the panel. > of business, though, is to check your voltages. The fact that you have Agreed! -tony From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue May 13 19:43:00 2003 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Seeking Surplus Places, Portland area Message-ID: <200305131741470725.0ECEFACD@192.168.42.129> Fellow listmembers, I'm making a run to Portland and vicinity later this week (Thursday, so I can at least see if the rumors about Tektronix's company store are true). I'm going to be looking for electronic surplus places to add to the listings on my web site, and I would appreciate input as to any I may have missed from this list: Da Lode Surplus Electronics, 8221 N. Denver R5-D3 Electronic Surplus, 9770 SE Stanley Ave. Wacky Willy's (both stores, NW Vaughn and Hillsboro). Tektronix Company Surplus (I already have directions). I'll also be doing some shopping of my own, but please bear in mind that my interests have swung hard away from computer hardware and back into the RF and test equipment realm. That's not to say I wouldn't like to find, say, Data I/O programming stuff, it's just not my primary focus when I'm shopping any more. So... Have I missed anyone? I came across a phone book entry for 'Norvac Electronics' that sounded vaguely familiar, but I figure Portland area folk will know best. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From rdd at rddavis.org Tue May 13 19:55:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305132002.22866.jcwren@jcwren.com> References: <200305132002.22866.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20030514005335.GA1319@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe J.C. Wren, from writings of Tue, May 13, 2003 at 08:02:22PM -0400: > You get Prozac with this lifestyle? SIGN ME UP! No. You get something better: Jungian psychoanalysis and a copy of that excellent book, "Eccentrics," by Jamie James and David Weeks. No harmful physical side effects, plus you get the pleasure of knowing that such benefits make the biz'droids in the pharmaceutical companies, and elsewhere, cringe. :-) > On Tuesday 13 May 2003 19:50 pm, John Lawson wrote: > > Ya forgot one day realizing that you have utterly *no other* friends or > > associates who are not Komputer Kollector Krazies(tm) just like you. Ok, so your friends may all be reasonably eccentric. So far so good. > > And all your wives/girlfriends/SOs get together at said Festivals, > > Swapmeets, and Gatherings, and secretly brew up EVIL PLANS.... Hmmm... You've capitalized that. Scribble, scribble. Let's expand upon the meaning of your capitalization of those words. What does your capitalization of that signify to you? Does that mean that, whether you're consciously aware of it or not, you like women who make evil plans for you? > > There's more but I'm runnin' out of Prozac, so I'll shut up now. That's no problem. See what I wrote above. You can be happy without it. All you really need for happiness are your classic computers, eccentricity and, perhaps, in your case, women who "secretly brew up evil plans." ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From nampcjr at yahoo.com Tue May 13 20:00:01 2003 From: nampcjr at yahoo.com (Brian Heise) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PCjr software title: MasterType (Bounty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514005909.41863.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> JP I will give a look through my collection of stuff. It doesnt sound familiar, but I might.... Brian JP Hindin wrote: Greetings; I've had a request from a friend who is trying to track down a copy of MasterType for PCjr. He's willing to pay a reasonable bounty for it, but isn't going to pay a Lords ransom. Thanks all; JP Hindin The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 13 20:16:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Cool Find at Auction Today Message-ID: <017201c319b6$3883a640$a60cdd40@oemcomputer> Picked up a iMMIX videocube today auction and have been trying to find out more about it on the web? Most of the links are bad that have gotten back doing a google search. In the same lot was a PowerPC 8100/100 tower and a 6116CD. From davebarnes at adelphia.net Tue May 13 20:36:00 2003 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Cool Find at Auction Today References: <017201c319b6$3883a640$a60cdd40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EC19F12.B9A41C11@adelphia.net> The IMMIX video cube was an early (1994-5) non linear video editing system. True broadcast quality , etc etc... way ahead of its time in my opinion. It used a power mac as the 'front end' controller/ interface.... Keys wrote: > Picked up a iMMIX videocube today auction and have been trying to find out > more about it on the web? Most of the links are bad that have gotten back > doing a google search. In the same lot was a PowerPC 8100/100 tower and a > 6116CD. -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From rickb at bensene.com Tue May 13 20:45:01 2003 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Seeking Surplus Places, Portland area In-Reply-To: <200305131741470725.0ECEFACD@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <000901c319ba$43327ea0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> NORVAC is strictly an electronics supply house. They sell a lot of stuff, from components, materials, test equipment, computer supplies, software, books...you name it. But, nothing particularly vintage. It's an old place...been around for quite a long time, and it definitely has some charm, but probably not a place that a vintage RF & test equipment enthusiast might want to hang up for long. But...it's a fun place to browse...especially if you've got a thick pocketbook. All my opinion, of course. I've used them for buying bits and pieces for years, and they've always been good to me, albeit a bit expensive compared to the mail order places. Rick Bensene > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Lane > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 5:42 PM > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: Seeking Surplus Places, Portland area > > > Fellow listmembers, > > I'm making a run to Portland and vicinity later this > week (Thursday, so I can at least see if the rumors about > Tektronix's company store are true). I'm going to be looking > for electronic surplus places to add to the listings on my > web site, and I would appreciate input as to any I may have > missed from this list: > > Da Lode Surplus Electronics, 8221 N. Denver > > R5-D3 Electronic Surplus, 9770 SE Stanley Ave. > > Wacky Willy's (both stores, NW Vaughn and Hillsboro). > > Tektronix Company Surplus (I already have directions). > > I'll also be doing some shopping of my own, but please > bear in mind that my interests have swung hard away from > computer hardware and back into the RF and test equipment > realm. That's not to say I wouldn't like to find, say, Data > I/O programming stuff, it's just not my primary focus when > I'm shopping any more. > > So... Have I missed anyone? I came across a phone book > entry for 'Norvac Electronics' that sounded vaguely familiar, > but I figure Portland area folk will know best. > > Thanks much. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- > kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone > demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." > (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 13 22:12:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Seeking Surplus Places, Portland area In-Reply-To: <000901c319ba$43327ea0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at May 13, 2003 06:43:46 PM Message-ID: <200305140311.h4E3BBrI017651@shell1.aracnet.com> > All my opinion, of course. I've used them for buying bits and pieces > for years, and > they've always been good to me, albeit a bit expensive compared to the > mail order places. I use them as well, but find that Norvac tends to be expensive even compared to other places in the area that carry the same stuff. Still for some stuff, they're the best place in town that I'm aware of. > > I'm making a run to Portland and vicinity later this > > week (Thursday, so I can at least see if the rumors about > > Tektronix's company store are true). I'm going to be looking Well, unless it's improved in recent years, it's still a shadow of its former self. I remember going with my Dad when I was growing up, and it was for employee's only. It was amazing. > > Tektronix Company Surplus (I already have directions). Could you please forward the info to me? I've no idea where on earth they are these days, or when they're open. I'm not even sure my Dad knows, I seem to remember some vague answer from him on the subject a while back. > > I'll also be doing some shopping of my own, but please > > bear in mind that my interests have swung hard away from > > computer hardware and back into the RF and test equipment > > realm. That's not to say I wouldn't like to find, say, Data > > I/O programming stuff, it's just not my primary focus when > > I'm shopping any more. Gee, you're sure you don't want to stop by and empty out one of my storage units :^) Unfortunalty I don't know of any places besides what you've listed. I didn't even know about a couple of those. However, I do recommend that anyone visiting Portland visit Powells Books, and/or Powells Technical Books. Zane From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue May 13 23:10:01 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Got Picture? Anyone got a link to a picture of a Televideo 2605? Message-ID: Anyone got a link to a picture of a Televideo 2605? If it's the one I remember... Televideo's PC/AT Color screen and a box on the side holding 1 10mb hard drive and 1 5.25 floppy. Thanks From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue May 13 23:45:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Got Picture? Anyone got a link to a picture of a Televideo 2605? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305140044.04381.jcwren@jcwren.com> There *may* be one at http://www.machine-room.org/computers/888/, but the site appears casters up at the moment. --John On Wednesday 14 May 2003 00:08 am, Ron Hudson wrote: > Anyone got a link to a picture of a Televideo 2605? > > If it's the one I remember... Televideo's PC/AT Color screen > and a box on the side holding 1 10mb hard drive and 1 > 5.25 floppy. > > Thanks From nampcjr at yahoo.com Wed May 14 06:19:00 2003 From: nampcjr at yahoo.com (Brian Heise) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PCjr software title: MasterType (Bounty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514111819.81125.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> JP I couldnt seem to find it in my hoard of stuff.....Was this a cartridge by chance? That would defintely make it a PCjr specific title then! Sorry I couldnt be more help! Brian "PCjr Reborn!" http://www.micro-zone.com JP Hindin wrote: Greetings; I've had a request from a friend who is trying to track down a copy of MasterType for PCjr. He's willing to pay a reasonable bounty for it, but isn't going to pay a Lords ransom. Thanks all; JP Hindin The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed May 14 06:35:00 2003 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PCjr software title: MasterType (Bounty) In-Reply-To: <20030514111819.81125.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030514073312.00b6c7b0@pop-server> At 04:18 AM 5/14/2003 -0700, you wrote: >I've had a request from a friend who is trying to track down a copy of >MasterType for PCjr. I have Master Type for C64 & Atari 400/800 From acme at ao.net Wed May 14 09:14:00 2003 From: acme at ao.net (acme@ao.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Leaving the Hobby Message-ID: <200305141412.h4EECmue007466@eola.ao.net> > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. I will not > participate in any discussion of the reason. The decision has been made. Thank you for your contributions to this list. May you life be long and happy. Best regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From graeme at davies4924.fsnet.co.uk Wed May 14 10:49:00 2003 From: graeme at davies4924.fsnet.co.uk (graeme) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: North Start operating System etc. Message-ID: <000001c31a30$1e653f10$6bc386d9@graemedntzltme> Help, I have a North Star with Quad density floppies. Unfortunately I do not have any software, operating system etc, can any one point me in the right direction please. Regards Graeme From vaxzilla at jarai.org Wed May 14 11:03:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: [article] France's Minitel: 20 years young Message-ID: I noticed this relevant article on the BBC site this morning. Aside from a one or two inaccuracies (i.e. Minitel preceding the Internet), and this being kind of a filler story, it's good to see classic computing getting coverage in the news. -> France's Minitel: 20 years young -> -> The history of the internet is measured in dog years - -> if you've been using it for 12 months, you're an old hand; -> since the 1990s, and you're a veteran. -> -> But as far back as 1983, a band of pioneers started using -> electronic networks to communicate, share information and -> work more efficiently. -> -> No, not Silicon Valley geeks, nor US military scientists - -> but ordinary French people, long derided as the worst of -> technophobic old Europe. -> -> Minitel, France's precursor to the internet, is 20 years -> old, and rumours of its demise have repeatedly proved -> exaggerated. -> -> [...] Full article: -brian. From vcc at mycroftinc.com Wed May 14 12:47:01 2003 From: vcc at mycroftinc.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Looking to buy Ohio Scientific Challenger Message-ID: <029901c31a40$538881b0$0101a8c0@biscuit> Hi all. I'm in the market for any Ohio Scientific Challenger machines. If you've got one you'd consider selling, please contact me at this e-mail address. Thanks! Sellam Ismail 925/294-5900 From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed May 14 16:28:01 2003 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supplies ???? In-Reply-To: <000001c31a30$1e653f10$6bc386d9@graemedntzltme> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030514172604.00bb2b50@pop-server> 1. Can anybody tell me which power supply(s) should be used with the Atari800XL computer 2. Also if you know what machine they are each for that would be great. 3. Is there someplace to find a listing of Atari Power Supplies and what machine they are for? Atari Power Supply C061982 Atari Power Supply C070042-011 Atari Power Supply Model CO 14319 IP 120vac 60hz 18.5w OP 9vac 15.3va Atari Power Supply Part Number C010472 IP 120v 60hz 9w OP 9v dc 500ma Atari Power Supply part number C016804 IP 120v 60hz OP 9vac 31VA Atari Power Supply part number C017945 IP 120v 60hz 50w OP 9vac 31VA Atari Power Supply part number CA14748 IP 120v 60hz 20w OP 15VA Atari Power Supply part number C016353 IP 120v 60hz 11w OP 9v DC 500ma for Atari 2600 Atari Power Supply part number C018187 IP 120vac 60hz 38va OP9.3vdc at 1.95A From jplist at kiwigeek.com Wed May 14 17:28:01 2003 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PCjr software title: MasterType (Bounty) In-Reply-To: <20030514111819.81125.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 May 2003, Brian Heise wrote: > I couldnt seem to find it in my hoard of stuff.....Was this a > cartridge by chance? That would defintely make it a PCjr specific > title then! Sorry I couldnt be more help! C'est la vie. It may also be available on cartridge - but we've only seen it on floppy. From cb at mythtech.net Wed May 14 20:07:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media Message-ID: I just aquired a ClubMac tape drive that I want to test. It is a rebadged Teac MT-2ST/N50 cassette drive. I'm hunting around for info, and it looks like that uses a 600XD cassette. A regular audio tape cassette fits in it. Does anyone know if I can use regular audio tapes? Maybe a particular style of audio tape? I really just want to test the drive to see if it works, so if an audio tape will work long enough to write some data and read it again to make sure the drive functions, that should be enough. I don't really want to plunk down $15 for a data cassette for it to find that the drive is dead. -chris From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 14 20:38:00 2003 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media Message-ID: <112.232625ae.2bf44913@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2003 9:09:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cb@mythtech.net writes: > I just aquired a ClubMac tape drive that I want to test. It is a rebadged > Teac MT-2ST/N50 cassette drive. I'm hunting around for info, and it looks > like that uses a 600XD cassette. > > A regular audio tape cassette fits in it. Does anyone know if I can use > regular audio tapes? Maybe a particular style of audio tape? > > I really just want to test the drive to see if it works, so if an audio > tape will work long enough to write some data and read it again to make > sure the drive functions, that should be enough. I don't really want to > plunk down $15 for a data cassette for it to find that the drive is dead. > > I have a number of data cassette tapes still in original packaging. A maxell CS-600XD says 600feet length, 16,000ftpi and D/CAS-86 compatible. Have no idea what that means. -- Antique Computer Virtual Museum www.nothingtodo.org From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Wed May 14 20:41:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: <5cs2cvg5t3478967ap8g3snlbotfg98us5@4ax.com> Message-ID: <001f01c31a82$ee5c1a70$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> A. Lost Job Selling stuff B. Wife said "Get this crap out of here or I am leaving" and she was the one with a job. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:30 PM Subject: Leaving the hobby > > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > get one? > > > I will not participate in any discussion of the reason. > > OK, so we will just speculate wildly and discuss it without you ;) > > > The decision has been made. > > Sounds like someone decided for you. Best of luck, anyway. When > I'm tired of my PDP-8, Sinclair ZX-81, VIC-20, Apple //e, etc. I > just put them back in the closet for a while. > > -Charles From cb at mythtech.net Wed May 14 21:35:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media Message-ID: >I have a number of data cassette tapes still in original packaging. A maxell >CS-600XD says 600feet length, 16,000ftpi and D/CAS-86 compatible. Have no >idea what that means. Well, at least it gives me the specs to find a compatible tape. In doing some more searching, I'm having a very hard time finding anyone that actually still sells the tape. A few people still list them, but so far no one seems to actually have them. Probably because from what I can find, Maxell no longer makes the tape. Any chance you might want to part with one tape on the cheap? Although, honestly, if I can't find a supplier for tapes, it won't really matter if the drive works or not. Maybe I'll just stick an audio tape in it and see what happens (found a newsgroup posting that says not to even think of doing that... but they don't say why... if the universe implodes tomorrow, you can all blame me for using a cheap audio tape in the drive) -chris From donm at cts.com Wed May 14 22:46:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <001f01c31a82$ee5c1a70$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > A. Lost Job Selling stuff > B. Wife said "Get this crap out of here or I am leaving" and she was the one > with a job. I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just accept what he said and let it go at that. - don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:30 PM > Subject: Leaving the hobby > > > > > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. > > > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > > get one? > > > > > I will not participate in any discussion of the reason. > > > > OK, so we will just speculate wildly and discuss it without you ;) > > > > > The decision has been made. > > > > Sounds like someone decided for you. Best of luck, anyway. When > > I'm tired of my PDP-8, Sinclair ZX-81, VIC-20, Apple //e, etc. I > > just put them back in the closet for a while. > > > > -Charles From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 14 23:34:00 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514214010.02652ec0@mail.zipcon.net> theres no header on the data tapes (IIRC) At 10:33 PM 5/14/03 -0400, you wrote: >Although, honestly, if I can't find a supplier for tapes, it won't really >matter if the drive works or not. Maybe I'll just stick an audio tape in >it and see what happens (found a newsgroup posting that says not to even >think of doing that... but they don't say why... if the universe implodes >tomorrow, you can all blame me for using a cheap audio tape in the drive) From aeg at paradise.net.nz Thu May 15 04:53:01 2003 From: aeg at paradise.net.nz (Alan Greenstreet) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supplies ???? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030514172604.00bb2b50@pop-server> Message-ID: <5136164D-86BB-11D7-886B-0003937C53CC@paradise.net.nz> Hi Gene I've checked my Atari 800XL, but living where I do they are all 240V supplies though. I have CO 61763-34 for the main power supply. The output is stated as 5V --- 7.5VA. The cassette recorder/player has a supply CO 61516-13 which states 8.52VAC at 4.26VA From what you have on your list it appears the US voltage models must be quite different. I hope this is of some help Alan On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 09:26 Pacific/Auckland, Gene Ehrich wrote: > 1. Can anybody tell me which power supply(s) should be used with the > Atari800XL computer > 2. Also if you know what machine they are each for that would be great. > 3. Is there someplace to find a listing of Atari Power Supplies and > what machine they are for? > > Atari Power Supply C061982 > Atari Power Supply C070042-011 > > Atari Power Supply Model CO 14319 > IP 120vac 60hz 18.5w OP 9vac 15.3va > > Atari Power Supply Part Number C010472 > IP 120v 60hz 9w OP 9v dc 500ma > > Atari Power Supply part number C016804 > IP 120v 60hz OP 9vac 31VA > > Atari Power Supply part number C017945 > IP 120v 60hz 50w OP 9vac 31VA > > Atari Power Supply part number CA14748 > IP 120v 60hz 20w OP 15VA > > Atari Power Supply part number C016353 > IP 120v 60hz 11w OP 9v DC 500ma > for Atari 2600 > > Atari Power Supply part number C018187 > IP 120vac 60hz 38va OP9.3vdc at 1.95A From aeg at paradise.net.nz Thu May 15 05:00:01 2003 From: aeg at paradise.net.nz (Alan Greenstreet) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supplies ???? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030514172604.00bb2b50@pop-server> Message-ID: <5ADBE0E4-86BC-11D7-886B-0003937C53CC@paradise.net.nz> I also found this link which I forgot to post in my earlier message... http://www.howell1964.freeserve.co.uk/Atari/800XL/Atari_800XL.htm Alan On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 09:26 Pacific/Auckland, Gene Ehrich wrote: > 1. Can anybody tell me which power supply(s) should be used with the > Atari800XL computer > 2. Also if you know what machine they are each for that would be great. > 3. Is there someplace to find a listing of Atari Power Supplies and > what machine they are for? > > Atari Power Supply C061982 > Atari Power Supply C070042-011 > > Atari Power Supply Model CO 14319 > IP 120vac 60hz 18.5w OP 9vac 15.3va > > Atari Power Supply Part Number C010472 > IP 120v 60hz 9w OP 9v dc 500ma > > Atari Power Supply part number C016804 > IP 120v 60hz OP 9vac 31VA > > Atari Power Supply part number C017945 > IP 120v 60hz 50w OP 9vac 31VA > > Atari Power Supply part number CA14748 > IP 120v 60hz 20w OP 15VA > > Atari Power Supply part number C016353 > IP 120v 60hz 11w OP 9v DC 500ma > for Atari 2600 > > Atari Power Supply part number C018187 > IP 120vac 60hz 38va OP9.3vdc at 1.95A From cli at pholink.com Thu May 15 07:16:01 2003 From: cli at pholink.com (Pholink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: HP 1650B Logic Analyzer Flexible (Floppy) Disk Drive Pinout Message-ID: <001801c31adb$86bb07b0$d00510ac@NOBLE.CC> HI: Does everyone have experience connect 3.5" PC floppy disk drive to HP 16XX logic analyzer? I think the HP used 720K floppy disk. It is different from standard PC floppy disk. He is pintout on HP main board. 1 ? 2 ? 3,5,6,7,9,11,12,14 5V 4, 16 ? 8 ? 13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27 GDN 18 ? 20 ? 22 ? 24 ? 26 ? 28 ? 30 ? 32 ? 34 ? 29, 31,33 12V Would you tell me what "?" is? Thanks LI From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 15 07:33:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: HP 1650B Logic Analyzer Flexible (Floppy) Disk Drive Pinout In-Reply-To: <001801c31adb$86bb07b0$d00510ac@NOBLE.CC> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030515083203.453fe60e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm not sure what drive the 16xx is supposed to use but ALL of HP's HP-IB disk drives use 600 RPM drives and a much higher transfer rate than standard PC type 3.5" drives. a PC drive will not work in them, PERIOD. I believe the built-in drives that HP uses are the same but I'm not positive. Joe At 07:14 AM 5/15/03 -0500, you wrote: >HI: > > Does everyone have experience connect 3.5" PC floppy disk drive to HP 16XX >logic analyzer? I think the HP used 720K floppy disk. It is different from >standard PC floppy disk. He is pintout on HP main board. > >1 ? >2 ? >3,5,6,7,9,11,12,14 5V >4, 16 ? >8 ? >13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27 GDN >18 ? >20 ? >22 ? >24 ? >26 ? >28 ? >30 ? >32 ? >34 ? > >29, 31,33 12V > >Would you tell me what "?" is? > >Thanks > >LI From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 15 08:29:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Fwd: [swap] Asante Nubus 100 Mbps Fast Ethernet Adapter Message-ID: Someone on this list was just asking about 10/100 NuBus ethernet cards for the Mac. I saw this posting today, figured I would forward it along. These go quick, so don't be surprised if it is already sold. As usualy, reply to them, not to me. ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 5/15/03 1:19 AM Received: 5/15/03 9:13 AM From: Lorraine Kerwood, raino@mindspring.com To: LEM Swap List, lem-swap@mail.maclaunch.com Go flying with your connection to your network! Still in shrink wrapped, unopened box. AsanteFAST 10/100 adapter for Nubus. Systems supported; Macintosh computers with NuBus slots, including Power Macintosh family, Quadra family, Mac II family, Centris 650, Performa 600, and duo dock stations. OS 7 and higher. Need cash. Make offer. Need to buy cat 5 cable and jacks for a comp lab. Cashiers check or money order only. Shipping from Eugene, OR 97402 raino ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- -chris From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 15 08:37:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media Message-ID: >theres no header on the data tapes (IIRC) That's a simple fix. Actually, if that is the only reason an audio tape isn't usable, then I can custom order tapes from a supplier I use in the correct length (600 feet) and with no leader. I don't know the price for sure, but I would venture to say no more than $2.00 per tape. (I get normal 120 minute tapes from him for about 60 cents a tape). Somehow I suspect there are other reasons beyond tape length and lack of a leader that makes it different from an audio tape. -chris From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 09:20:00 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: References: <3EC103D4.801.148B831E@localhost> from "Greg Elkin" at May 13, 3 02:40:20 pm Message-ID: <3EC3AFE9.30071.1EFBB2C5@localhost> thanks for the pointers & info re grant continuity on UNIBUS. I picked the 11/34a up myself and carted it back home safely. System was 2 RL01s and the BA23-like (don't know the designator for the unibus box similar to the QBUS BA23, will look later) PDP11/34a, and an RX02 diskette drive. No disassembly of the 11/34 box till it got home and didn't power the DC ON led on the front panel. Removed (documenting as one went, of course :) the cards from the UNIBUS card frame, and left just the backplane, still no DC ON light. So a suspect PSU, which I've got out of the box now and on the bench. will throw the meter at it in a bit to see what volts are or aren't coming out... greg From brian.roth at fnfg.com Thu May 15 09:42:00 2003 From: brian.roth at fnfg.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Solaris 2.6 Message-ID: Can't remember who was looking for this but.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3023855791&category=41081 Brian Roth Network Administrator A+ N+ CNA CCNA Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com ***************************************************************************** ********************* The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ***************************************************************************** ********************* BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:roth, brian TEL;WORK:2186 ORG:;Network Services TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com N:roth;brian X-GWUSERID:1372 END:VCARD From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 15 09:49:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: What is this Apple cable Message-ID: Anyone know what this cable might go to: Its an Apple looking cable (Apple Platinum, same physical connector style as they used, and found in a box of Apple/Mac stuff... it just lacks an actual Apple logo). It goes from 15 pin D-shell (Mac RGB style) to 9 pin D-shell (PC Serial style). Assuming it to be an Apple cable, it looks like it would go from RGB to something. I'm not aware of any Apple monitors that use a 9 pin connector however. I know there were some 3rd party ones for early Macs (some full page monitors and the likes), but I didn't know of any that would interface with the Mac's RGB connector. Of course, this doesn't rule out that it is a 3rd party video cable that maybe went to a custom video card (like most of the 9 pin using 3rd party monitors I have seen do, only those that I have seen that use 9 pin have all been 9 pin to 9 pin, not 15 to 9). So, has anyone seen a cable like this before that can do better job of speculating what it is for. I am going under the assumption that it is an Apple cable, but if anyone has seen a similar cable for the PC or other systems, I'll be happy to entertain those ideas as well. -chris From pdm4606 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 15 10:04:00 2003 From: pdm4606 at sbcglobal.net (Paul Mika) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: What is this Apple cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe the cable used on an Apple version of a pc operating system. Uaes the Mac chassis and a Mac processor then adds a pc processor on a small board in a slot. I never found a connector for the board that I have. It is as you say a 9 pin. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu May 15 12:14:00 2003 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: LA36 in Kansas City Message-ID: <958B228E6A626242A3FEAB621C4C933550A916@exch2000.cmh.internal> If anyone is looking for a LA36 there is one at the surplus exchange at 1107 Hickory Kansas City Missouri. Not-for-profit office equipment/computer equipmnent recycling. mike From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu May 15 12:17:00 2003 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Teletype 33-TU in Kansas City at surplus exchange Message-ID: <958B228E6A626242A3FEAB621C4C933550A917@exch2000.cmh.internal> There is a Teletype unit model 33 TU with a roll of paper in the unit at the surplus exchange at 1107 Hickory. If anybody is interested I can ask about the price. Mike m m c f a d d e n @ c m h . e d u From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 15 13:43:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: chris "Re: Cassette Media" (May 15, 9:36) References: Message-ID: <10305151941.ZM25108@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 15, 9:36, chris wrote: > On May 14, 21:40, Geoff Reed wrote: > >theres no header on the data tapes (IIRC) There is on mine, see below. > That's a simple fix. > > Actually, if that is the only reason an audio tape isn't usable, then I > can custom order tapes from a supplier I use in the correct length (600 > feet) and with no leader. I don't know the price for sure, but I would > venture to say no more than $2.00 per tape. (I get normal 120 minute > tapes from him for about 60 cents a tape). > > Somehow I suspect there are other reasons beyond tape length and lack of > a leader that makes it different from an audio tape. Probably. I have some 30/60MB Verbatim ones, which *do* have a leader. I suspect they'e a different coercivity from normal audio tape. However, I think the warnings about not using audo tape come from the fact that cheaper audio tape used to be reknowned for being a little abrasive, and for shedding oxide, which is not very good for streamer performance. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu May 15 13:56:00 2003 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media References: Message-ID: <3EC3E32A.1000907@gifford.co.uk> chris wrote: > I just aquired a ClubMac tape drive that I want to test. It is a rebadged > Teac MT-2ST/N50 cassette drive. I'm hunting around for info, and it looks > like that uses a 600XD cassette. I have a Teac cassette drive like this, and I've used it on a Linux SCSI system. It worked fine. However, I did get a tape with it, which I can dig out and have a closer look at, if it'd help. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 15 13:59:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: chris "Re: Cassette Media" (May 15, 9:36) References: Message-ID: <10305151957.ZM25132@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 15, 9:36, chris wrote: > Somehow I suspect there are other reasons beyond tape length and lack of > a leader that makes it different from an audio tape. > > -chris I found a little information that may give a cluue. Go to http://www.cybergenetic.ca/ebook/wrh13.htm and scroll down to the section headed "D/CAS". My tapes have the big notch described. I think the coercivity of these tapes is about 600 oersteds (which makes them Class II); normal audio tape is about 280-320 (Class I). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 15 15:27:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media Message-ID: >I found a little information that may give a cluue. Go to > > http://www.cybergenetic.ca/ebook/wrh13.htm > >and scroll down to the section headed "D/CAS". My tapes have the big >notch described. I think the coercivity of these tapes is about 600 >oersteds (which makes them Class II); normal audio tape is about >280-320 (Class I). Interesting about that notch. I tried fitting an audio cassette tape in mine last night, and it inserted and allowed me to close the drive (flip the locking handle to the locked position). The link indicates that I shouldn't be able to close the drive without that notch being present. I didn't examine the mechanism as it locked, so it is possible that it has a fail safe and although the handle showed locked, the transport in fact wasn't. Or of course, the previous owner may have forced it locked on an audio cassette and broken the transport. I guess I need to open the drive again tonight and take a look. It does give me hope that you think the tape might be in the range on an Audio Class II tape. Those are easy and cheap to come by around here. The local Tower Records sells them in lengths from 30 minutes to 120 minutes, with all sorts of odd "match the CD" lengths in between. They are usually in the $1 to $5 each range depending on brand, quality, length, and number in a pack. I should take a look there tonight, I almost wouldn't be surprised if they sell D/CAS tapes (if they were used in audio equipment at any point, chances are Tower has a few of them). -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 15 15:28:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: FA: VAX/VMS manuals, DEC CCAs, HP-85, AT&T 3B2 manuals Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030515162753.5cef9a84@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished putting more sutff on E-bay including some DEC VAX/VMS manuals, AT&T 3B2 manuals, a VME chassis, a HP-85 and even a 1903 book on steam engines. I also have DEC circuit cards that wil lbe closing SHORTLY. see if interested. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 15:38:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: from "chris" at May 14, 3 09:06:18 pm Message-ID: > A regular audio tape cassette fits in it. Does anyone know if I can use > regular audio tapes? Maybe a particular style of audio tape? IIRC, the 'digital' tapes have a much higher coercivity than audio tapes. You might get an audio tape to work for testing, but I certainly wouldn't trust it. The digital tapes have an extra notch in the rear edge of the cassette shell. Some drivea look for this (and maybe even physically require it for the cassette to fit). Others don't care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 15:39:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514214010.02652ec0@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at May 14, 3 09:40:43 pm Message-ID: > theres no header on the data tapes (IIRC) Maybe some of them are leaderless, but others certainly have leaders. In fact some drives use an optical sensor to detect the transparent leader for BOT/EOT detection. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 15 15:46:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: <3E37320D.40306@eoni.com> <3E37320D.40306@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030515163813.2aef9f00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:06 AM 1/29/03 -0600, Toth wrote: > >> For cleaning computer plastics, the absolute best product I've found (in >> the US) is Hoppe's No. 9 Powder Solvent. Found at your local sporting >> goods store. Even removes PERMANENT Sharpie. > >Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured paint? I >have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, and short of >paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink in the paint while >damaging the texture), I've found nothing that seems to work. I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not all of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 15:48:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: HP 1650B Logic Analyzer Flexible (Floppy) Disk Drive Pinout In-Reply-To: <001801c31adb$86bb07b0$d00510ac@NOBLE.CC> from "Pholink" at May 15, 3 07:14:23 am Message-ID: > HI: > > Does everyone have experience connect 3.5" PC floppy disk drive to HP 16XX > logic analyzer? I think the HP used 720K floppy disk. It is different from > standard PC floppy disk. He is pintout on HP main board. This may be a Sony MP-F52W-50 drive. That drive is used in the 9114B and 9153 drive units. The pinout matches sort-of (in that a couple of pins you have tied high are in fact drive select signals, but it would be sensible to tie them high if not used). > > 1 Reset Disk Change/ > 2 Disk Change > 3,5,7,9,11 5V 6 DS3/ 10 DS0/ 12 DS1/ 14 DS2/ > 4 LED On/ 16 Motor On/ > 8 Index/ > 13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27 GDN > 18 Step Direction > 20 Step/ > 22 Write Data/ > 24 Write Gate/ > 26 Track00/ > 28 Write Protect/ > 30 Read Data/ > 32 Side Select/ > 34 Ready/ > > 29, 31,33 12V I am a bit suprrised you didn't mention pin 10. This is DS0/, and could possibly be tied to ground in a single-drive system. The pinout is close to that of a PC drive. But a PC drive will _not_ work without major changes to the controller because the HP (or Sony) drive rotates at 600rpm -- twice as fast. If you have the old Sony drive, it's worth knowing that many of the parts (head, stepper motor, analog ASIC, motor driver chips, etc) are the same as in an Apple Mac 800K drive. Those are relatively common and make a good source of spares. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu May 15 17:14:00 2003 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media References: Message-ID: <3EC41198.4010604@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > The digital tapes have an extra notch in the rear edge of the cassette > shell. And it's not in the middle of the rear edge, either. I have a Philips cassette drive that uses the off-centre notch to detect Side A or Side B of the tape. It has two microswitches in the back of the cassette space, only one of which will fall within the notch. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 15 17:28:00 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514214010.02652ec0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515153413.02690140@mail.zipcon.net> At 09:34 PM 5/15/03 +0100, you wrote: > > theres no header on the data tapes (IIRC) > >Maybe some of them are leaderless, but others certainly have leaders. In >fact some drives use an optical sensor to detect the transparent leader >for BOT/EOT detection. No problem Tony, the only one of these tapes I've ever had my hands on was leaderless. From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Thu May 15 17:30:01 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis References: <1FE88F8C-8566-11D7-9CBC-000393A2E26E@mac.com> Message-ID: <000801c31b31$65b40570$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> What is a BBS? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Leach" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 1:12 PM Subject: In search of Christopher Willis > Hello, I know this may be a long shot but I figured I'd try it anyway. > > I figure there is a good chance that someone on the list may know an > old friend of mine, Christopher Willis. I met Chris and his wife Pat > (Patricia) on a BBS in southern Ohio. Chris's impressive collection of > computers included an Altair 8800B with a Winchester hard disk, two 8 > inch drives, and a Televideo 912c terminal. When Chris joined the navy > (I believe this was 1996, though it may have been earlier.. hmm.. maybe > 94?) He left the Altair system with me which went into storage at my > parents house when I left for college, where It still lives (I'm > getting ready to recover it and set it up in my new house soon) > > Other computers in his collection ranged from 8080/z80 boards to > various oddball multiuser mini's. At one point (years before I knew > him), I know that he had a collection housed in a warehouse (Many of > which he ended up losing eventually). Among others, this collection > included a UNIVAC. [see why I think someone on the list might know him?] > > Over the years, I lost contact with Chris and would love to get ahold > of him and Pat again. If out there could help me track him down it > would be greatly appreciated. From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Thu May 15 17:34:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: Message-ID: <001e01c31b31$ecccfb70$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> If you can't be unkind and unfair in speculating then why speculate at all? Lighten up. You make a cryptic statement and naturally people are going to react to it. Rushing to be mister sensitive is more annoying than cycinysm.. and not nearly as entertaining. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:44 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > On Wed, 14 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > > > A. Lost Job Selling stuff > > B. Wife said "Get this crap out of here or I am leaving" and she was the one > > with a job. > > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > accept what he said and let it go at that. > - don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charles" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:30 PM > > Subject: Leaving the hobby > > > > > > > > I am leaving the hobby/lifestyle of classic computing. > > > > > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > > > get one? > > > > > > > I will not participate in any discussion of the reason. > > > > > > OK, so we will just speculate wildly and discuss it without you ;) > > > > > > > The decision has been made. > > > > > > Sounds like someone decided for you. Best of luck, anyway. When > > > I'm tired of my PDP-8, Sinclair ZX-81, VIC-20, Apple //e, etc. I > > > just put them back in the closet for a while. > > > > > > -Charles From donm at cts.com Thu May 15 17:34:26 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, chris wrote: > >theres no header on the data tapes (IIRC) > > That's a simple fix. > > Actually, if that is the only reason an audio tape isn't usable, then I > can custom order tapes from a supplier I use in the correct length (600 > feet) and with no leader. I don't know the price for sure, but I would > venture to say no more than $2.00 per tape. (I get normal 120 minute > tapes from him for about 60 cents a tape). > > Somehow I suspect there are other reasons beyond tape length and lack of > a leader that makes it different from an audio tape. All of the data cassette tapes that I have run across come equipped with BOT/EOT perforations to prevent run off at either end. I do not recall such being used on audio tapes. If your drive uses them, the lack could be awkward. - don > -chris > From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 15 17:37:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030515163813.2aef9f00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: > >Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured paint? I > >have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, and short of > >paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink in the paint while > >damaging the texture), I've found nothing that seems to work. > > I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not all > of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. Try using a stiff plastic bristle brush with the alcohol. It'll get deeper into the texture and remove more. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 15 17:57:00 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <000801c31b31$65b40570$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: > What is a BBS? You're kidding, right? g. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 18:01:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Cassette Media In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 15, 3 03:33:27 pm Message-ID: > All of the data cassette tapes that I have run across come > equipped with BOT/EOT perforations to prevent run off at either I beleive the tapes were once available either with or without the EOT hole. Some drives needed it, others used the transparent leader. -tony From pat at purdueriots.com Thu May 15 18:08:00 2003 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Items FS Message-ID: I've got things that still haven't been claimed from last time yet. I'm asking $5 plus shipping costs each item. First, the new: - PowerMac 6100/66 with 250MB hard drive, cdrom, and DOS card (with dongle for the DOS card). I think it has 16MB RAM. - Compaq Luggable (original model). Has 2 FH 5.25" floppy drives. - Zenith XT clone with 10MB hard drive, and 360KB floppy drive. Tested, works. - DEC LanBridge, not used, pair of AUI connectors on the back. Now, what's left from last time, and probably going to get thrown out soon: - Macintosh Classic II. 80MB HDD, not sure on amount of ram. - Macintosh Plus 1MB - Macintosh Quadra 700, 16MB ram, 230MB HDD. - Mac-plus style keyboards and mice (4pin RJ11 keyboard, DE9 mouse) - PS/2 Model 70, with 6MB ram and an 80MB hard drive. I have at least two to get rid of, but need to find where I stuffed the ram first... - 2 Full-height 50pin centronics SCSI enclosures - HP 9000 model 715/50, I think it has 32MB ram. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 15 18:32:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: > > > > Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured > > > paint? I have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, > > > and short of paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink > > > in the paint while damaging the texture), I've found nothing that > > > seems to work. > > > > I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not > > all of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. > > Try using a stiff plastic bristle brush with the alcohol. It'll get > deeper into the texture and remove more. The textured paint I have with sharpie on it has a very light texture. The problem seems to be that the paint is "soft", or some kind of scratch resistant paint, and the sharpie was pulled down into tiny pores in the paint. I've been wondering if I'd be better off just repainting the covers, as they aren't very large. I just don't know where I'd get that kind of paint, or how it needs to be cured. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 15 18:34:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030515163813.2aef9f00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3E37320D.40306@eoni.com> <3E37320D.40306@eoni.com> <3.0.6.16.20030515163813.2aef9f00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: > At 05:06 AM 1/29/03 -0600, Toth wrote: > > > Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured paint? > > I have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, and short > > of paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink in the paint > > while damaging the texture), I've found nothing that seems to work. > > I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not all > of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. That pretty much describes my experience with it :/ -Toth From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Thu May 15 18:36:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis References: Message-ID: <000c01c31b3a$8f6945c0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> No I am not kidding.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:02 PM Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > > What is a BBS? > > You're kidding, right? > > g. From bpope at wordstock.com Thu May 15 18:49:00 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <000c01c31b3a$8f6945c0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> from "Thompson Family" at May 15, 03 07:34:41 pm Message-ID: <200305152348.TAA31058@wordstock.com> And thusly Thompson Family spake: > > No I am not kidding.. > ACK! Excuse me for asking, but have you ever used a computer in the 80's?! (or earlier...) BBS = Bulletin Board System. Computer. Modem. Call other computer with modem. Connect. ANSI. X-modem. Bliss. Cheers, Bryan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Buckle" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:02 PM > Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > > > > > What is a BBS? > > > > You're kidding, right? > > > > g. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 15 18:49:15 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: from "Thompson Family" at May 15, 2003 06:29:01 PM Message-ID: <200305152348.h4FNmA6Q023471@shell1.aracnet.com> > What is a BBS? You're joking, right? BBS = Bulleten Board System Before the Internet was publically accessable, most people that were online were either using a commercial service such as Compuserve, or BBS's. Some BBS's were free, others charged for access. There were even "Networks" of BBS's such as Fidonet that shared email and message boards. Everything was done via dialup, often with very slow modems. Zane From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 15 20:44:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis Message-ID: >What is a BBS? Yikes. My first reaction was this must be a joke. Someone on this list doesn't know what a BBS is. But then I realized, this is a list for classic computers, with the definition of classic being older than 10 years. By 1993 the internet was on a solid growth, and BBSs were already hard to find. Kind of scary that some of the people that might just be getting into this "lifestyle" (now that we have determined it is a lifestyle) honestly may not know what a BBS is. Nor might they know anything about much that predates the existance of Windows and the Mac OS. Hopefully, we can welcome the new people, and educate them to what they have missed out on... while keeping the list from degrading into a glorified Windows 95 tech support forum. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 15 21:06:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. Message-ID: > I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not all >of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. I've used Simple Green. Put a good coating of it on (a small pool of it to cover the marker), then let it sit... and sit... and sit some more... then look at it, walk away and let it sit some more. Give it a good 30 minutes. Then firmly start rubbing it off. I've found that takes off most all of it. Repeat as needed (usually after the 2nd or 3rd application, the marker is either gone completely, or faded to the point of not very noticable... however, on some materials it has almost no effect other than to waste your time and stink up your work bench) Try on the case in a non noticable area first, as I've also found letting Simple Green sit for that long can discolor some paint and plastics. -chris From jrasite at eoni.com Thu May 15 21:54:00 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: Message-ID: <3EC4529B.3000201@eoni.com> Get thee to your local gun shoppe and pick up a bottle of Hoppe's No. 9 Powder Solvent. Takes most every thing off. Haven't used it on painted surfaces, but it'll remove the unremovable from plastic. Methyl alcohol is the 'official' solvent for Sharpie ink though. Available from your local pharmacist. Jim >On Thu, 15 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >>On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: >> >> >> >>>>Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured >>>>paint? I have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, >>>>and short of paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink >>>>in the paint while damaging the texture), I've found nothing that >>>>seems to work. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 15 21:56:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030515225512.3cefde20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:43 PM 5/15/03 -0400, you wrote: >>What is a BBS? > >Yikes. My first reaction was this must be a joke. Someone on this list >doesn't know what a BBS is. Next he'll want to know what a Teletype is! :-/ Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 15 21:56:09 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:38 PM 5/15/03 -0500, Toth wrote: >On Thu, 15 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: >> >> > > Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured >> > > paint? I have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, >> > > and short of paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink >> > > in the paint while damaging the texture), I've found nothing that >> > > seems to work. >> > >> > I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not >> > all of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. >> >> Try using a stiff plastic bristle brush with the alcohol. It'll get >> deeper into the texture and remove more. > >The textured paint I have with sharpie on it has a very light texture. The >problem seems to be that the paint is "soft", or some kind of scratch >resistant paint, and the sharpie was pulled down into tiny pores in the >paint. I've been wondering if I'd be better off just repainting the >covers, as they aren't very large. I just don't know where I'd get that >kind of paint, or how it needs to be cured. Check with automotive paint suppliers. They have every color under the rainbow and now that most of the new cars are being made of plastic they carry paint that's designed for use on plastic. Paint made for metal finishes never does work well on plastic. It's not flexible enough and it usually flakes and peels. You'd probably have to buy a minimum of a quart of paint so the cost might be prohibitive. You'd also need a GOOD compressor and spray gun and a place to spray so it's a big investment. The problem is that most computer stuff seems to use a peeble finish and not a smooth finish. You need to sand the surface in order to get the paint to stick but if you do you lose the peeble finish. If you don't sand then the new paint flakes off and in addition the new paint fills a lot of peeble finish anyway. You might be able to bead blast it to roughen the surface without losing the finish but now you need more equipment! I see on TV that they now have lasers that can burn off dark spots like freckles and tatoos without burning the lighter color skin around them. I wonder if something like that could be used to burn off dark marker stains without damaging the lighter surrounding area. Yeah I know that kind of equipment is expensive but I wonder if it would work. If so there are some of us that could build their own lasers or modify existing ones. Just an idea. Joe From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 15 22:09:00 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <000c01c31b3a$8f6945c0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > No I am not kidding.. > BBS is an acronym for Bulletin Board System. A BBS is typically a single user message base/file download system that is accessed by modem. Check out http://www.bbsdocumentary.com g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 15 22:22:01 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:38 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But then I realized, this is a list for classic computers, with the > definition of classic being older than 10 years. By 1993 the internet was > on a solid growth, and BBSs were already hard to find. > Horsepucky. Boards didn't begin to decline until 1995 or so. :) g. From donm at cts.com Thu May 15 23:52:01 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC4529B.3000201@eoni.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Jim wrote: > Get thee to your local gun shoppe and pick up a bottle of Hoppe's No. 9 > Powder Solvent. Takes most every thing off. Haven't used it on painted > surfaces, but it'll remove the unremovable from plastic. Methyl alcohol > is the 'official' solvent for Sharpie ink though. Available from your > local pharmacist. Are you sure? Being the poisonous one (vs ethyl alcohol) it would be a bit surprising for a pharmacist to trade in that item. - don > Jim > > > >On Thu, 15 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > >>On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>>Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured > >>>>paint? I have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, > >>>>and short of paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink > >>>>in the paint while damaging the texture), I've found nothing that > >>>>seems to work. From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Thu May 15 23:53:01 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> OK, I've said this before, but no one listened? I've gotten sharpie marker completely off painted metal computer items with acetone. It takes a little paint off too, so don't rub too hard, for too long in one spot. Don't use acetone near any ignition sources, like a lit cigarette, or a hot water heater pilot light, etc. It's explosively flammable. If it's sharpie marked plastic, best results are first clean with alcohol to get a lot of it. Then, with an alcohol wetted paper towel, sprinkle some comet cleanser on the towel to make an alcohol/comet paste, and scrub till it's off. Use pure white paper towels, because the ink from printed ones tends to come off back onto the surface you're cleaning. Acetone will also take sharpie off plastic too, but it will take some plastic with it, and leave textured surfaces smooth afterwards. At 10:53 PM 5/15/03 +0000, you wrote: >At 06:38 PM 5/15/03 -0500, Toth wrote: > >On Thu, 15 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: > >> > >> > > Has anyone tried removing Sharpie from a chassis with textured > >> > > paint? I have a couple of items that were marked up with a Sharpie, > >> > > and short of paint thinner (which seems to dilute and bury the ink > >> > > in the paint while damaging the texture), I've found nothing that > >> > > seems to work. > >> > > >> > I've used alcohol on that stuff and it seems to remove some but not > >> > all of it. I've never found anything that would remove it completely. > >> > >> Try using a stiff plastic bristle brush with the alcohol. It'll get > >> deeper into the texture and remove more. > > > >The textured paint I have with sharpie on it has a very light texture. The > >problem seems to be that the paint is "soft", or some kind of scratch > >resistant paint, and the sharpie was pulled down into tiny pores in the > >paint. I've been wondering if I'd be better off just repainting the > >covers, as they aren't very large. I just don't know where I'd get that > >kind of paint, or how it needs to be cured. > > Check with automotive paint suppliers. They have every color under the >rainbow and now that most of the new cars are being made of plastic they >carry paint that's designed for use on plastic. Paint made for metal >finishes never does work well on plastic. It's not flexible enough and it >usually flakes and peels. You'd probably have to buy a minimum of a quart >of paint so the cost might be prohibitive. You'd also need a GOOD >compressor and spray gun and a place to spray so it's a big investment. > > The problem is that most computer stuff seems to use a peeble finish and >not a smooth finish. You need to sand the surface in order to get the paint >to stick but if you do you lose the peeble finish. If you don't sand then >the new paint flakes off and in addition the new paint fills a lot of >peeble finish anyway. You might be able to bead blast it to roughen the >surface without losing the finish but now you need more equipment! > > I see on TV that they now have lasers that can burn off dark spots like >freckles and tatoos without burning the lighter color skin around them. I >wonder if something like that could be used to burn off dark marker stains >without damaging the lighter surrounding area. Yeah I know that kind of >equipment is expensive but I wonder if it would work. If so there are some >of us that could build their own lasers or modify existing ones. Just an idea. > > Joe From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Thu May 15 23:55:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c31b3a$8f6945c0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516005223.05b4bec0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> > A BBS is typically a single user. I'd seen many a serious, multi line, multi user BBS system in days gone by. At 08:15 PM 5/15/03 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 15 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > > > No I am not kidding.. > > > >BBS is an acronym for Bulletin Board System. A BBS is typically a single >user message base/file download system that is accessed by modem. > >Check out http://www.bbsdocumentary.com > >g. From donm at cts.com Thu May 15 23:57:01 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > > > No I am not kidding.. > > > > BBS is an acronym for Bulletin Board System. A BBS is typically a single > user message base/file download system that is accessed by modem. Sort of a dialup 'website' equivalent without the graphics. Mostly files and public email. There are still a few around. - don > Check out http://www.bbsdocumentary.com > > g. From jrasite at eoni.com Fri May 16 00:41:00 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: Message-ID: <3EC479C9.40900@eoni.com> That's where I've found it in the past... (About six months ago when grandchild #1 decided he wanted to be the next Picasso. Thoroughly decorated the kitchen floor. Cost about $6/ltr IIRC.) Jim Don Maslin wrote: >Are you sure? Being the poisonous one (vs ethyl alcohol) it would >be a bit surprising for a pharmacist to trade in that item. From jrasite at eoni.com Fri May 16 00:51:01 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <3EC47BE9.7050400@eoni.com> That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. Removes the ink w/o damaging the plastic. (Many gun parts are plastic these days...) Many industrial solvents are also plastic solvents. Acetone, methyl chloride, toluene... Not good for plastic. I was given the Hoppe's solution by an acquaintance whose business is buying last year's PCs from gov't auctions and reselling retail. Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. Lowers the retail value and hence the profit. Jim Mail List wrote: > Acetone will also take sharpie off plastic too, but it will take some > plastic > with it, and leave textured surfaces smooth afterwards. From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 16 01:35:01 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC47BE9.7050400@eoni.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Hello Jim, > Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. > That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow grease. I'd bet the comet is similar to your Hoppe's Powder, but not being a specialty product, probably is lower in cost, and being found in every grocery store, more readily available. Once you've tried it and gotten comfortable with the acetone technique, ie. learned when it might work for you, and how to go about it, etc. It doesn't really damage an item, it just modifies it. Smooth finish plastic is all right too. And clean is better than all marked up. But, the amount of time you wish to put into the scrubbing techniques will be dependant upon how important it is to you to keep it in as close to original condition as possible, and how much time you have to make available to do so. At 10:49 PM 5/15/03 -0700, you wrote: >That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. Removes the ink w/o damaging the >plastic. (Many gun parts are plastic these days...) Many industrial >solvents are also plastic solvents. Acetone, methyl chloride, toluene... >Not good for plastic. I was given the Hoppe's solution by an acquaintance >whose business is buying last year's PCs from gov't auctions and reselling >retail. Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. Lowers the >retail value and hence the profit. > >Jim > >Mail List wrote: > >>Acetone will also take sharpie off plastic too, but it will take some plastic >>with it, and leave textured surfaces smooth afterwards. From fernande at internet1.net Fri May 16 02:04:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <3EC48BC8.8030301@internet1.net> Mail List wrote: > Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler > alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow > grease. Which may scratch painted metal, since comet is an abrasive. > I'd bet the comet is similar to your Hoppe's Powder, but > not being a specialty product, probably is lower in cost, and being > found in every grocery store, more readily available. I doubt that an abrasive is a common gun cleaning recommendation. > Once you've tried it and gotten comfortable with the acetone technique, ie. > learned when it might work for you, and how to go about it, etc. It doesn't > really damage an item, it just modifies it. Smooth finish plastic is all > right > too. Not when it is surrounded by texture. > And clean is better than all marked up. Not when the cleaning is destructive. Besides there are alternatives that will clean and not be destructive. Try 3M's Adhesive remover. It's an auto body shop product. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri May 16 03:36:00 2003 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Cool Find Message-ID: <8B39793544120140B253EFE052E7ED0A0171DC27@lif015.vtmerlin.com> Visiting a charity shop this week I found one of these .. http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/anita_1011_lsi.html .. an Anita 1011 desktop calculator, 10 digit Nixie display and all for the sum of Two pounds forty seven pence. Apart from the rubber feet having melted into a marshmallow like crusty sludge it's mint condition with the manual and dust cover. Looks very pretty all lit up. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 16 07:16:00 2003 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <3EC4D64C.2080307@mdrconsult.com> Mail List wrote: > Hello Jim, > > > Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. > > That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. > > Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler > alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow > grease. I'd bet the comet is similar to your Hoppe's Powder, but Ahh, no. That's "Hoppe's" "Powder Solvent", not "Hoppe's Powder" "Solvent". As in removing gunpowder residues. It is magical stuph. Comet is very destructive on PVCs and softer plastics. Not-an-option. Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 16 08:07:00 2003 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Fwd: Lanier Word Processing System Needs New Home Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030516080236.02b05eb0@pc> >From: "Marianne L. Faber" >To: jfoust@threedee.com >Subject: Lanier Word Processing System Needs New Home >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:10:54 -0500 > >Hello John Foust-- > >I was delighted to find your "Computer Rescue" site, and I hope you can help me find a home for a friend's Lanier Word Processing System. This is a complete system, including most manuals, that dates from the late 80's. The owner is fastidious about care. He retired the system up sometime around 1989, and it was in full working order at the time. Currently, it is resting safely in about 12 labeled boxes on storage shelves in southern Minnesota. > >Do you know of a collector who would be interested in it? The alternative is May 27th's annual "free computer recycling day" at our county recycling center. I would hate to see that happen, but the eternal quest for shelf space is pressing the issue. > >Thanks for your help. > >Marianne L. Faber >mlfaber@earthlink.net From allain at panix.com Fri May 16 08:13:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Dryer outlets and Thyristors References: <8B39793544120140B253EFE052E7ED0A0171DC27@lif015.vtmerlin.com> Message-ID: <017801c31bac$84275180$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I was considering picking up a VAX 6000-610, let me rephrase that, I was considering moving a VAX 6000 to my garage, somehow, and... I remember an extensive discussion a while back about getting Gunther's and perhaps other peoples VAXen to work on house power. Can someone supply a summary of how do do so? A pointer to an "eureka" email would suffice if one exists since I have a pretty good classiccmp archive here. TIA John A. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri May 16 08:24:01 2003 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Philadelphia & Denver - thrift shops In-Reply-To: <3EC4D64C.2080307@mdrconsult.com> References: < <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030516092059.0257be90@pop-server> We are going to be driving from Florida to New Jersey (Phila area) in a few weeks and wondered if anybody has any thrift shop type places that often have good old computer items that they could recommend in the area. Same question for Denver/Colorado Springs area. Thanx in advance From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 16 08:41:01 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516005223.05b4bec0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: > > A BBS is typically a single user. > > I'd seen many a serious, multi line, multi user BBS system in days gone by. Oh so have I. I was just trying to provide a minimal example. :) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 16 08:46:00 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Cool Find In-Reply-To: <8B39793544120140B253EFE052E7ED0A0171DC27@lif015.vtmerlin.com> Message-ID: > Visiting a charity shop this week I found one of these .. > > http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/anita_1011_lsi.html > > .. an Anita 1011 desktop calculator, 10 digit Nixie display > and all for the sum of Two pounds forty seven pence. > > Apart from the rubber feet having melted into a marshmallow > like crusty sludge it's mint condition with the manual and > dust cover. Looks very pretty all lit up. > That's really cool Lee. I wish I had one. :) g. (kc7afe/ag!) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 16 09:26:01 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Request for additional developers and testers (HPEMU) Message-ID: <005301c31bb6$dd12cae0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Greetings folks! As many know, I have been working on an emulator (hpemu) for the HP 2100 type computer systems for some time. An incredible amount of progress has been made, however, I only have so much time I can dedicate to this project. More importantly, I've wanted to find other people to "join the team" and help work on it, but I needed to first get the API's and structure well defined, coded, and tested first. That is certainly now done. In addition, I finally decided the project will be released "open source". Actually, it will be "dual licensed", with individual use being free and under the GPL (just like the mysql license). Complete source code is available (as of the pending alpha release) and free. As a result, I wanted to query the folks here to see if anyone was interested in helping with the development. People wanting to help work on the code should have a working knowledge of programming in C on unix platforms. The emulator makes heavy use of SYSV style message queues, and BSD style pipes and sockets - so familiarity with these is pretty essential. All of the code is non-blocking, so familiarity with that type of programming environment is a big help. Of course, knowledge of the 2100 machine language would make things a lot easier for you. The cpu module is tested and running, as are several devices/interfaces. Most of the work needing to be done now involves adding functionality to the configuration options processing, optimizing existing code, error reporting and logging, and most of all coding additional devices that use the API to tie to the cpu. Of course, ideas/code for new/better features is welcome. Perhaps someone would like to take the 2100 module and enhance it to make a 21MX module? If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. Regards, Jay West From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 16 09:52:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC4D64C.2080307@mdrconsult.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516104413.00a57160@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Doc, > Comet is very destructive on PVCs and softer plastics. Not-an-option. It doesn't hurt a monitor housing one bit. See my other post. At 07:15 AM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: >Mail List wrote: >>Hello Jim, >> > Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. >> > That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. >>Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler >>alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow >>grease. I'd bet the comet is similar to your Hoppe's Powder, but > > Ahh, no. That's "Hoppe's" "Powder Solvent", not "Hoppe's Powder" > "Solvent". As in removing gunpowder residues. It is magical stuph. > > Comet is very destructive on PVCs and softer plastics. Not-an-option. > > Doc From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 16 09:55:01 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing Sharpie Marker from Plastic In-Reply-To: <3EC48BC8.8030301@internet1.net> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516091619.05b3dc50@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Hello Chad, Perhaps you hadn't read the entire thread on this? > Which may scratch painted metal, since comet is an abrasive. Part of the previous messages was about getting Sharpie marker off plastic. That's what I said I've used the alcohol / comet paste on. > I doubt that an abrasive is a common gun cleaning recommendation. You'd have to ask the gun experts. I'd never heard of this Hoppe's Powder Solvent before. It wasn't I that was advocating it's use. But if I ever have some, I'd be willing to give it a try just to see how it did. But at the present time, already having a proven effective method of cleaning the Sharpie off plastic with commonly available materials already at hand, I don't yet have the need to run out and get any of the Hoppe's Powder. >>Smooth finish plastic is all right >>too. > Not when it is surrounded by texture. On something like a huge monitor, the marking were generally on the top of the bezel. I'd cleaned / smoothed the top, stopping at the corners and it looked acceptably ok when it was done. The corners provided a transition point from being smooth on the top to textured on the sides. Sometimes the parts are worth enough to put a lot of time into it, and sometimes they're not. As monitors declined in value, the time available to clean or refurbish them also had to correspondingly be reduced. Part of it also depends on how much spare time you have, and what value you place on that time. The time it took to clean a monitor as I describe below was only something I could do in times past. With monitor values having declined to where they are now, I could only do this cleaning for one I was going to use myself these days. I stopped selling any monitors a long time ago, and now excess ones only go to scrap. But ... If you have an old 13" or 14" VGA monitor you've picked up at uni or gov't surplus, if it's an average small size PC monitor, it's not worth a whole lot these days, so you wouldn't be risking much to experiment on it. My method was to take the back casing off the monitor and clean it up in the bath. Squirt straight dishwashing liquid on a scrub brush, the sprinkle comet on heavily to get a paste, then scrub. It scrubs the sharpie marker off very very well. Then either let it dry overnight, or blow dry with air. On the body of the monitor, since it couldn't go into the bath and get soaked, I used the alcohol on a white paper towel and got off as much as I could. Then I wet another paper towel with alcohol, sprinkled on comet, and scrubbed. The alcohol comet paste scrubs the Sharpie marking off very well. When I cleaned monitors this way, when I was done, they were so clean, even though they started out dirty and marked up, when done, they looked like they just came right out of the box new. The 20" Sony I'm sitting here in front of right at the moment was done this way. The results were perfect. The texture was not disturbed in any noticeable way. You can choose to disbelieve, or you can give it a try. Your choice. At 02:57 AM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >Mail List wrote: >>Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler >>alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow >>grease. > >Which may scratch painted metal, since comet is an abrasive. > >>I'd bet the comet is similar to your Hoppe's Powder, but >>not being a specialty product, probably is lower in cost, and being >>found in every grocery store, more readily available. > > >I doubt that an abrasive is a common gun cleaning recommendation. > >>Once you've tried it and gotten comfortable with the acetone technique, ie. >>learned when it might work for you, and how to go about it, etc. It doesn't >>really damage an item, it just modifies it. Smooth finish plastic is all >>right >>too. > >Not when it is surrounded by texture. > >>And clean is better than all marked up. > >Not when the cleaning is destructive. Besides there are alternatives that >will clean and not be destructive. > >Try 3M's Adhesive remover. It's an auto body shop product. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA From cb at mythtech.net Fri May 16 10:09:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Free Scanners (+ shipping) Message-ID: I have two sheet feed scanners here that anyone can have, just cover shipping. Spectra 1200 Color Scanner SP Color 6000 Here's the catch (there's always a catch). I don't have the interface cards for them. One of the two I have a manual and software, and the software for both is available on the web (PlusTek's web site?). They use, from what I can tell, a custom interface card. I tried to find out if it was a generic SCSI card, but I wasn't able to turn up any info that indicated that. They do pull their power from the interface card, so I tend to think it is not SCSI. I also don't have the cable that goes between the card and the scanner, but both ends are DB 25 so it should be fairly easy to get a cable (assuming there isn't some funky pinout for it). I also don't know for sure that either scanner works. They were given to me a few years ago, at the time the previous owner told me they were parallel scanners, so I didn't think of checking for an interface card until it was too late. As a result, I have no way of testing them, so I can't say if they work or not. If anyone wants either or both, just cover shipping or pick them up (Ridgewood, NJ 07450). They are going in the dumpster no later than Wednesday, so let me know by then. -chris From fernande at internet1.net Fri May 16 10:33:31 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC4D64C.2080307@mdrconsult.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516004308.05b4d990@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> <3EC4D64C.2080307@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3EC50227.5040909@internet1.net> Doc wrote: > Ahh, no. That's "Hoppe's" "Powder Solvent", not "Hoppe's Powder" > "Solvent". As in removing gunpowder residues. It is magical stuph. > Will is make me fly :-) > Comet is very destructive on PVCs and softer plastics. Not-an-option. Comet is something I use on computers all the time. I find that if it does scratch the plastic it is so fine that it really isn't noticeable on a textured plastic surface, especially if you wax the surface afterwords. There was one item that did get scratched significantly, but I can't recall what it was..... seems like it was some Apple // item. I wouldn't use Comet on painted metal, though. Even on plastic you need to make sure you don't use it too dry. Comet will normally make an IBM PS/2 look new again! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 16 10:35:50 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Multiple Manuals needed ($$$) Message-ID: Hello Folks. I'm seeking out the following manuals for a client: - Apollo DN560 (any manuals, in particular hardware reference) - SUN2 hardware reference manuals - Synapse N+1 (database machine from the early 1980s) any manuals - Motorola VERSAmodule 32-bit Monoboard Microcomputer User's Manual M68KVM04/D1 - Any supplemental information on the above regarding the 68010 - DEC MINC-11 or MINC-23 or MiniMinc hardware reference - IBM System/360 Model 195 Field Engineering Manual: Theory of Operation - IBM System/360 Model 195 Field Engineering Manual: Storage Control - Unit and Buffer Storage IBM Form No. SY22-6850 - Field Engineering Maintenace Diagram Manual (FEMDM) System/360 Model 195, Volume 3 Form No. SY22-6853-1 As always, there is a monetary reward for the capture of these manuals. If you've got any of these and are willing to loan them for a period of time, please contact me directly at . Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 10:45:01 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <3EBC1561.1353.4F4B076C@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2003, Stan Sieler wrote: > > 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal > > operational use > > Someone/group just ran a contest to find out the answer to that last > year. I don't recall who/what won, nor if I was "happy" with the result > :) > > A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's > the oldest one I know of. > > If you want mainframes, one of our clients has an HP 3000/70 (dating > back to about 1983) still in continual daily use ... not sporadic. I've personally seen with my own eyes an IBM S/360/30 still operating in an industrial setting. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 10:46:40 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: <000001c317ed$c295efc0$6401a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, Fred deBros wrote: > I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01 infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an > hdd That's actually a pretty nice box. It's a storage server. It doesn't have VAX roms, though, so it can't run VMS. > So the s3 switch looking exactly like the one on a Vaxstation 3100 > series should do the same: switch from serial display/console to > terminal. And the dB25 plug is not a printer out, but functionally > similar to the db15 of the vs3100: it carries mouse/kbd and b/w analog > signals (single bnc) for a terminal display. No SPX or GPX board in > there anyways. Am I right? Nope. You don't hook a keyboard and mouse to this thing. It'll only accept a terminal. > Long slide for a short question: > Is there a DEC cable that fits this db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd > plugs - analogous to the vs3100 15-pin plug? > Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? No. It doesn't need a keyboard, mouse, or monitor. It uses a terminal. > All I need is kbd and analog out. That would allow me to fire up this > otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax. Or try the new linux vs3100 > kernel on a compact system that has the cd built-in..... It won't run NetBSD. It uses a terminal and runs software specific to the infoserver. It can act as a storage server, serving disk to VMS machines, and also as a MOP boot server for VAX, PMAX, and Alpha machines. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 10:48:12 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <000b01c3183f$599be0e0$b76ff4d0@dialup> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 2003, Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote: > > IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation. > > Having programmed IBM Series/1 computers for Citibank for many years in > my youth, I find the concept of "full operation" as applied to the > Series/1 quite foreign and peculiar. They're doing motion control in an automated industrial setting. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 16 10:49:43 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: <000001c317ed$c295efc0$6401a8c0@fred> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Fred deBros > Sent: 11 May 2003 19:47 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 > > > I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01 infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an > hdd > > Long slide for a short question: > Is there a DEC cable that fits this db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd > plugs - analogous to the vs3100 15-pin plug? > Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? > > All I need is kbd and analog out. That would allow me to fire up this > otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax. > Or try the new linux vs3100 kernel on a compact system that has the cd > built-in..... Hi Fred, Here's my reply to the last time you posted this question on the 12th March: -----8<------------------------8<----------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Fred deBros > Sent: 12 March 2003 03:04 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: DEC InfoServer ? > > > Specifically: Does anybody have the pinout to the db25 (not a db 15!) > plug of the infoserver 150 model SEACD - AX - A01 in the back? The > caption above the plug shows a square with an up-arrow in it. Monitor? > Combo kbd/mouse/monitor? Fully standard RS232 for modem connections. > And the S1 switch nearby that switches regular vs3100's between serial > and terminal console mode. > Does that mean it has a built-in framebuffer for at least b/w like all > vs3100's and can serve as a console? Nope. Console is the left-most MMJ port on the back and is for something like a VT420. No framebuffer in these things.... > There are three mmj plugs in the back, named 1,2 and 3 with horiz arrows > to left and right: why three serial consoles? All simultaneous? The 150's using the same hardware as a VAXstation so it gets 4 serial lines too. > And two scsi terminators. Two scsi buses? > So where does the kbd go??? Into the VT420 :) > Otherwise the box looks just like a vs3100 to me, so it should run > netbsd1.6. BTW for those who play with it: Ping works on a vs3100m38, > although it does not return the pkt count to console, so it looks > broken....hate dead dinosaurs! Try telnet instead and bingo! There's definitely ROM differences since I don't recall ever getting a dead sergeant prompt (>>>), it just auto-booted. Mind, we were using it in a production environment so I didn't get much time to play with it....still, it's downstairs now and I've been talking about doing a hardware comparison for weeks now :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans -----8<------------------------8<----------------- Since posting that I've added pictures to my Binary Dinosaurs museum (which I also posted here): http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Digital/infoserver.htm I've got a BC09J-03 SCSI cable still in its bag in front of me right now and the Infoserver is behind me waiting for me to get some time to actually try and boot a VMS 7.3 CD just to see if it will. Watch this space :) -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From geoff at pkworks.com Fri May 16 10:51:15 2003 From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use References: Message-ID: <000b01c3183f$599be0e0$b76ff4d0@dialup> > IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation. Having programmed IBM Series/1 computers for Citibank for many years in my youth, I find the concept of "full operation" as applied to the Series/1 quite foreign and peculiar. From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 10:52:47 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2003, JP Hindin wrote: > On the prowl for computers at home (Wellington, New Zealand) I had > greased my way into a tour around a storage room of a banking centre. I > was greatly excited to discover a frightfully large IBM (if memory > serves, an S/390) with its face turned to the wall. On enquiry of > possibility of my relieving them of this waste of storage space the chap > told me that he wasn't sure why I'd want a water heater. > > Unfortunately, after explaining to the fellow why it was most definately > not a water heater, the chances of picking it up become very remote. > They never explained to me why they'd put the machine in storage either > :/ Rule number one: never tell them what they've got. Peace... Sridhar From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri May 16 10:54:18 2003 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: References: <006201c31762$6e65b920$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030511231605.00ad2580@mail.n.ml.org> Yes, oddly enough, it at one point was sitting in the power parallel dept running calculations for various things while the deep blue was being built. I remember my father's manager complaining about IBM insisting that their subcontractor department had to use it and were not allowed to replace it. The just put in for a replacement of a "failed server" that sat there running fine and IBM plopped in another $150k server next to it without realizing it. Though, the S/360/30 was still used. Nowadays, from what I last heard from a guy at IBM Poughkeepsie, NY, the S/360/30 in question is being used to process and develop information on some of IBM's older but still used machines (such as software/firmware development and revisions, etc.). I've also heard htat a similar unit was being used by KLA Temcor (sp?) in robotics development and control. They seem to like coming to my company's shop and picking up serial and SCSI cabling for the robotic units to interface them with the controlling machines while they are being developed. Cheaper than continuously banging out proto-boards every time you'd like to make a change to the function or design or when you need to make a revision. -John At 12:50 AM 5/11/2003, you wrote: >On Sat, 10 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military > > server somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their > > equipment out every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other > > branches only upgrade after every user who knows how to run the system > > is dead/retired. Probably some computer setup for the social security > > database, or liscense plate server or other mundane task. > > > > Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant > > controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the > > C64. > > > > What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? > > Or is this just personal computers? > >IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation. I >think there's also an S/360/30 doing something. > >Peace... Sridhar ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 16 10:56:02 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) In-Reply-To: <000201c31668$67b2d950$8cdd86d9@graemedntzltme> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of graeme > Sent: 09 May 2003 21:20 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) > > > Hi there > > I am interested and not to far away in Newcastle. Probably I could > collect Monday or wedensday. > > Graeme > Yay - 2 classiccmpers in Newcastle.....what are the chances of that? :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From sieler at allegro.com Fri May 16 10:57:39 2003 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Lost Server In-Reply-To: <"a05111b00bae46a038e9c(a)(091)192.168.1.2(093)*"@MHS> References: <3EBE98D5.8040404@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3EBF8137.18183.9707D3F@localhost> Re: > > The first time I heard that story, it was an HP 3000 :) -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From dsvmicro at island.net Fri May 16 10:59:11 2003 From: dsvmicro at island.net (DSV Microtech) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: 2116b Message-ID: <005f01c31901$b3f69810$0401a8c0@cranky> Hi Bob My brother passed away recently and while going through his belongings, I discovered a 2116b with 2160a power supply. There is a box with it containing more cards and the manual. I couldn't say whether it is working or not, but knowing my brother, it would still work. I'm not sure what to do with it yet, but if you are interested, let me know. Thanks. Bernie Stock DSV Microtech 560A 11t6h Ave. Campbell River, BC V9W 4G4 Tel: 250 286 3173 Fax: 250 286 3178 From hansp at citem.org Fri May 16 11:01:01 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Archives (was Re: VCFe Munich report) In-Reply-To: <200305122054.NAA03457@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200305122054.NAA03457@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3EC0765A.70500@citem.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm more interested in getting the information spread to multiple > locations, regardless of the media. Even paper tape burns up in > a fire. The only real hope is a lot of copies spread around the > world. This is why I've made my efforts for the Poly88 and I'm > doing similar for the H89. > Multiple media and multiple locations is the only hope. Exactly, as was demonstrated by the fire in Edinburgh last December which destroyed the AI library. Even online digital archivesa re not immune, ISTR that a Dutch network center burned sometime last year. I don't recall hearing that anything was iretrievably lost though. -- hbp From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Fri May 16 11:02:33 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A7@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Similarly, there are also sound cards now where the DSP is accessible. The first sound cards that came out with DSPs on weren't downloadable/programmable, but later ones were. $75 is a great price for an experimental platform! The good thing about the Atari Falcon at the time (a long time before DSPs appeared on sound cards and before softmodems existed) was that there was a public domain assembler for the MC56001, plus, thanks to Motorola's commendable policy of selling silicon but giving away supporting software (to a certain extent anyway), there was a huge library of public domain libraries for the 56K DSP series. There was also a commercial assembler/debugger for the MC56001 which was only about £60. That allowed all the standard debugger facilities - single stepping, register & memory view, breakpoints etc. It just goes to show that technically good products never sell themselves. The Atari Falcon was a dual-processor (MC68030 + MC56001) GUI-based machine which had available a pre-emptive multitasking operating system (MiNT), built in SCSI port & MIDI, 50kHz-sampling stereo 16 bit ADC/DACs, at a time when PCs were twice the price with no sound card, no SCSI, and had just got Windows 3.1...The Falcon flopped! paul -----Original Message----- From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] Sent: 12 May 2003 18:03 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay >From: "Hills, Paul" > >That's a lot - it's not really a vintage machine, nor a particularly rare >one. I still use mine as a MC56000 Digital Signal Processing (DSP) testbed. >At the time, the £500 I paid for it was a quarter of what I would have had >to pay to get a DSP experimentation card for a PC, and since I didn't have a >PC at the time it was a bargain. > >In addition to that, I wrote a series of articles about DSP for the ST >Format magazine in the UK, for which they paid me £500, recompensing the >computer's cost! Ha! > >paul > Hi For my DSP experiments, I got one of those "SoftModems". It had a A/D-D/A, ADSP2100 Analog Devices DSP and RAM to load the programs into. It only cost me $75 when new. Dwight From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Fri May 16 11:04:04 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A8@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Although the storage medium transferred to may have a shorter life, the information itself may have a longer life. As the previous poster said, he can store all his old 8-bit stuff in a tiny corner of his hard disk. That can get stored to CD. Now write-able DVD has arrived, it can be copied to an even smaller corner of a DVD. When the next, even more dense, medium arrives, it may be copied to an increasingly smaller corner of that. As long as this copying process occurs more often than the life-length of each medium, there's no problem. Keeping a copy of each intervening storage media gives you your backups too. There is a danger of leaving the information on the original only, as exemplified by the problems with the BBC's (UK) doomsday project (http://www.si.umich.edu/CAMILEON/domesday/press.html), which fortunately were solved. Even though it may be theoretically possible to resurrect the data, it might be very difficult. paul -----Original Message----- From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: 12 May 2003 20:53 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VCFe Munich report > Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me > realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved, > and then work out what to do with it. I could store everything I've > ever written on an 8-bit computer in a corner of my existing hard drive > and not even notice it was there. I've got to dig out all those KCS > cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get > them transferred. I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable long after your hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The originals have a much longer life... -tony From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Fri May 16 11:05:36 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A9@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> I have quite a bit of software on cassette tapes for 1980s home computers. Does anyone know of a simple method (without having to design and build myself a dual-tone decoder circuit + write suitable PC software) of getting this information onto a PC? I guess the home computer emulator pages on the web must have done this. Maybe I could record it as a WAV file then write a program to decode the WAV? Or would MP3 encoding be capable of compressing and reliable expanding the audio data (MP3 is of course designed to compress music which these squeaks and whistles clearly are not, even if they lie within the audio spectrum!). paul From yakowenk at yahoo.com Fri May 16 11:07:06 2003 From: yakowenk at yahoo.com (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Univac 9200 in Minneapolis Message-ID: <20030513083919.42866.qmail@web14512.mail.yahoo.com> (Apologies if this comes through twice; I've been having e-mail troubles for several days, and re-trying...) I've just got word of a Univac 9200 available in Minneapolis. It is in a building that is due to be torn down in about a week, so if you are in a position to do anything about it, do it soon! If its owner doesn't get any offers, it may well go to e-bay. At the present, he seems willing to just give it to anyone who wants to keep the whole thing and can cart it away! If nobody can arrange a rescue of the whole machine, then I've got dibs on parts, because I've got a mostly-complete 9200 that could use them. Still, if you have an actual need for any particular part, let me know, and if it is something that my machine doesn't need I would be willing to share. Note that, like my machine, his is also missing the power-supply-and-memory cabinet. For those who don't already know, the Univac 9200 was a late-60's minicomputer based on small-scale pre-TTL (maybe SUHL?) technology. It came with 8K of thin-film RAM (some variation of magnetic core memory), and a built-in line-printer. Physically, it was about the size of an office desk, but maybe twice as tall. I've got a web page with a little info about mine, here: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/univac/ If interested, contact me (now or sooner!). It'll most likely be first-come, first-served. Cheers, Bill. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From yakowenk at yahoo.com Fri May 16 11:08:39 2003 From: yakowenk at yahoo.com (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Univac 9200 in Minneapolis -- more Message-ID: <20030513085452.38790.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> Er, in case it isn't obvious, reply to me at xyakoxwenk@yahoox.com (after removing those x's) about the Univac... The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 11:10:10 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: PS/1 for sale. Offers invited. In-Reply-To: <001b01c3185c$f8c7b000$85f5f1c3@computer4> Message-ID: Umm. Eew. These are the machines with the DOS burned into ROM. Peace.... Sridhar On Mon, 12 May 2003, W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > Hi, > > A charity I do some work for has an IBM PS/1 they would wamt to sell. > 80386/16. 40 Mb HD, color monitor, dutch handbook. Location Arnhem, The > Netherlands. > > Wim From Eurtly at Southslope.net Fri May 16 11:11:53 2003 From: Eurtly at Southslope.net (Eurtly) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: SN94281 Message-ID: Do you still have the chip or chips below, if so I'd be interested in buying them... Eurtly Parker Eurtly@Southslope.net I have a SN94281 in a Radio Shack package. [demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Notebook.jpg] From ib-o at online.no Fri May 16 11:13:24 2003 From: ib-o at online.no (Ib Olsen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Kilobaud magazine issue # 1 Message-ID: I was living in Tokyo from 1969 to 1985 as a Danish electronic expatriate engineer, and my best past time hobby was to visit the electronic marked "akkihabara" I have a number of interesting magazines, one in particular, Kilobaud issue # 1 in pristine condition. Anybody have an idea of the value of this magazine From philip at awale.qc.ca Fri May 16 11:14:54 2003 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-May-2003 JP Hindin wrote: > On Sun, 11 May 2003, VaxCat wrote: >> The whole oldest computer on the net thread reminded me of a story >> a friend told me. > >> THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER > I've seen this before; I wonder about its authenticity - but there's no > reason to jump to any conclusions... This is an urbane legend that I believe to be true. Google found this : http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/18265.html (this probably isn't a good enough reference to guaranty authenticity, though) -Philip From jberaro at ap.unitech.ac.pg Fri May 16 11:17:01 2003 From: jberaro at ap.unitech.ac.pg (Joshua Beraro) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: RAMS Message-ID: <001901c31a33$9dccba00$4a2201ca@ap.unitech.ac.pg> What Companies in Australia sell 2114 RAMs? Can anyone out there help? Joshua Beraro Principal Technical Officer Applied Physics Department PNG University of Technology Papua New Guinea From ram_suganthi at hotmail.com Fri May 16 11:18:33 2003 From: ram_suganthi at hotmail.com (Ram & Suganthi M.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: Pagemaker 3 for the MAC (and other MAC-related things) Message-ID: Hi, I have several documents (whitepapers on various transputer products from Paramax) that was apparently created using Pagemaker 3 for the MAC. I was able to get a copy of Pagemaker for Windows (latest version), but unfortunately documents are not cross-platform friendly on different versions of Pagemaker. I also do not have a MAC and hence I am currently using Basilisk for NT (which suits my current needs). Does anyone have a copy of Pagemaker 3 for the MAC? Or better yet, help me convert these documents into postscript/pdf so that I can post them on my website. I also have several disk images of various transputer programs and applications for the MAC. I am having problems reading these files (they come up as corrupted). Dont know what I can do as I dont know if it is Basilisk's fault or the files are really corrupt. Can someone with a MAC expand out the files and possibly stuffit for me instead? Any help is much appreciated, Ram _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 11:20:06 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: <004801c31986$f03c46a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > Wonder if Storageworks ever offered an SDI/RA* series converter? Not that I've ever heard of. I would guess that most machines with an SDI interface would have no trouble being equipped with a CI controller for connection to an HSJ. Peace... Sridhar From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 16 11:21:37 2003 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: VAX 6610 available in NJ Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030514130559.00a58b10@mcmanis.com> There is a VAX 6610 and storage array available for pickup in New Jersey. Contact me for details. --Chuck From robbiej600 at hotmail.com Fri May 16 11:23:08 2003 From: robbiej600 at hotmail.com (Robbie J) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: 5362 computer Message-ID: Hello, I hate to bother you but I have a old IBM 5362 computer and I came across a add you had on the internet.I was wondering how I could attach my IBM 5362 to my IBM 3270 workstation,would I use the parallel port or do they make a special cable that hooks to the round port below it.I have search the internet high and low and can't find any information about it.If you can help me or know where I can find some information about it please let me know.I guess thats it for now.Thanks in advance-Robbie _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From robbiej600 at hotmail.com Fri May 16 11:24:40 2003 From: robbiej600 at hotmail.com (Robbie J) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:39 2005 Subject: IBM 5362 Message-ID: Hello, I just got an old IBM 5362 computer and I was searching the internet for information about it and came across a add you had posted a while back,I was was wondering if you know of any good sites were there is information about it.I was wondering how to hook the 5362 to my ibm 3270 workstation,please e-mail me back if you can help.Thanks-Robbie _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 16 11:26:10 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi folks, My recent haul of stuff from the former Enterprise factory (makers of the Enterprise 64 and 128, fabled machine that was released too late to save the company, as usual :) included a pair of prototype hard drive controllers that I've got pretty much no hope of getting any info on, a RAM checker and the beast of a machine mentioned in the subject. Made by STAG in 1984, it's got a model number of PP16A and features a socket for a cartridge containing the master EPROM and a module containing 16 EPROM sockets for new EPROMS, so obviously you feed it a master and it makes up to 16 copies. Under the hood it's actually a 6809 based micro with 2K RAM and the board has holes ready for 2 COMM sockets, so does anyone remember these beasts? It'd be great if I could add on the serial ports and talk to it using a PeeCee for making ROM backups Hastily taken pictures: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/ramchecker.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/romburner1.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/romburner2.jpg My Enterprise page: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Enterprise/enterprise.htm cheers! -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 16 11:27:43 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: <001d01c3166e$6fba4d80$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: Morning all, Another one for you :) Had a quick trawl of the archives 'cos I'm sure someone's mentioned doing this, but the recent stuff isn't archived yet is it? Anyway, What's the best way to get data off Apple ][e disks and onto something that has a CD burner fastened to it? I've got a bunch of old disks here containing documents and BASIC programs that need to be archived. I'm assuming null-modem cable connection between Apple/PC and file transfer software? Xmodem or something like that? Kermit? Thanks in advance, -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From bill at timeguy.com Fri May 16 11:29:17 2003 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515102338.G64769-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Aww - what fun is that? How about this: Bill's Top 10 Reasons to Leave the Classic Computer Hobby 10) Landlord has voiced concerns over sagging floors and melting wiring. 9) People mistaking your place for the local landfill keep dropping off old appliances in your yard. 8) Electric bill has exceeded the GNP of several 3rd-world countries. 7) You haven't seen your kids for several days, but you keep hearing muffled scratching noises coming from that last set of 9-track drives. 6) Not only can you no longer get the car in the garage; now you can't even get it in the driveway. 5) Al Gore hanging around claming to have invented half of your stuff. 4) EPA has declared your house a hazardous waste site due to all the PCBs. 3) You've become the target of drive-by bulk-erasings. 2) Ever since that incident with the card sorter, your dog refuses to come out from under the bed. and the number one reason... 1) A 40-year-old man at the Star Wars premier dressed as Yoda heard about your hobby and told you to "GET A LIFE!" --- Thank you, thank you. You're too kind. You've been a wonderful audience! On Wed, 14 May 2003, Don Maslin wrote: > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > accept what he said and let it go at that. > - don From tim at tcns.co.uk Fri May 16 11:31:01 2003 From: tim at tcns.co.uk (Tim Challenor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Teletype 33-TU in Kansas City at surplus exchange In-Reply-To: <958B228E6A626242A3FEAB621C4C933550A917@exch2000.cmh.internal> References: <958B228E6A626242A3FEAB621C4C933550A917@exch2000.cmh.internal> Message-ID: <1053028475.5688.1.camel@f809k> Hi Mike - we've been looking for one for quite a while and would appreciate your offer to ask about this Thanks Tim/Nick On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 18:15, McFadden, Mike wrote: > There is a Teletype unit model 33 TU with a roll of paper in the unit at the > surplus exchange at 1107 Hickory. If anybody is interested I can ask about > the price. > > Mike > m m c f a d d e n @ c m h . e d u From aw288 at osfn.org Fri May 16 11:33:00 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Univac 9200 in Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <20030513083919.42866.qmail@web14512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I've just got word of a Univac 9200 available in > Minneapolis. It is in a building that is due to > be torn down in about a week, so if you are in a > position to do anything about it, do it soon! Ah well...to far away. I would have like to scope it out and see if there is anything I can use. > If nobody can arrange a rescue of the whole machine, > then I've got dibs on parts, because I've got a > mostly-complete 9200 that could use them. Still, > if you have an actual need for any particular part, > let me know, and if it is something that my machine > doesn't need I would be willing to share. Please save what you can. > For those who don't already know, the Univac 9200 > was a late-60's minicomputer based on small-scale > pre-TTL (maybe SUHL?) technology. It came with 8K > of thin-film RAM (some variation of magnetic core > memory), and a built-in line-printer. Physically, > it was about the size of an office desk, but maybe > twice as tall. This is just the processor and printer basically. As you mentioned before, the memory box is a small but heavy unit that sits next to it. On the bigger 9300, the disk and/or tape controls are in there own huge box. I think the 9300 also has a bigger card punch and reader control box as well. > I've got a web page with a little > info about mine, here: > > http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/univac/ I forgot you had this - I last looked a long time ago. I have a rather large 9300 system with the memory, 2 disks and control, and the larger card handling equipment, plus a lot of software on punch cards - but NO manuals. Contact me at some point, and maybe we can both get our Unis working. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From JEFFPEREZ at LIBERTYPR.NET Fri May 16 11:34:32 2003 From: JEFFPEREZ at LIBERTYPR.NET (Jeff Perez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Intellec 8 Etc. Message-ID: <000601c31b42$b0a68380$ee0a7f0a@JeffreyPerez> do you still have the Royton Sweda Punch station? From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 11:36:09 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516005223.05b4bec0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Mail List wrote: > > A BBS is typically a single user. > > I'd seen many a serious, multi line, multi user BBS system in days gone > by. I ran a four-line TBBS myself at one point. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 11:37:40 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC479C9.40900@eoni.com> Message-ID: I usually see isopropanol rather than methanol at the pharmacist. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 15 May 2003, Jim wrote: > That's where I've found it in the past... (About six months ago when > grandchild #1 decided he wanted to be the next Picasso. Thoroughly > decorated the kitchen floor. Cost about $6/ltr IIRC.) > > Jim > > Don Maslin wrote: > > >Are you sure? Being the poisonous one (vs ethyl alcohol) it would > >be a bit surprising for a pharmacist to trade in that item. From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 11:39:11 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC48BC8.8030301@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler > > alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow grease. > > Which may scratch painted metal, since comet is an abrasive. I use soft scrub. Peace... Sridhar From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri May 16 11:40:43 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E51278A3@MAIL10> Hello, all: This is a bit OT (because of the PC being used) but I believe that the application of the solution is timeless :-) Anyway, I want to run a "book" PC on 12v while I'm outside using the telescope (the PC will run the CCD camera setup). I gave some thought to simply using an AC inverter, but converting 12v to 120v AC and then back to PC power supply voltages seemed horribly inefficient. The power supply is rated 12v/5.5a and 5v/1a. It's an NLX-type motherboard, so the 12v is converted to 5v for various peripherals at the point of need. The 5v from the power supply is to support system standby mode only. I went hunting for DC-input PC-form-factor supplies but they're upwards of $200. I thought about directly connecting the battery to the PC and using a small DC-DC converter for the 5v, but the battery voltage isn't really 12v (it's more like 13.8v) so a regulator would be necessary. Any thoughts as to a simple, low-cost yet efficient solution? Rich From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 16 11:43:07 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Need HP9830A Calculator service manual Message-ID: Has anyone got an HP 9830A Calculator service manual? I'm trying to help someone out. A photocopy or scan would be adequate. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 16 11:45:08 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Dryer outlets and Thyristors In-Reply-To: <017801c31bac$84275180$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > I was considering picking up a VAX 6000-610, let me rephrase > that, I was considering moving a VAX 6000 to my garage, > somehow, and... I remember an extensive discussion a while > back about getting Gunther's and perhaps other peoples VAXen > to work on house power. > > Can someone supply a summary of how do do so? A pointer to > an "eureka" email would suffice if one exists since I have a pretty > good classiccmp archive here. All you do is to hook the two live leads from the dryer plug to the three live terminals on the 3-phase plug on the VAX. What I mean is that you hook phase 1 live and phase 3 live to one live leg of the dryer plug, and phase 2 to the other live leg. Then you hook neutral to neutral, ground to ground, and plug it in. Then you're good to go. Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Fri May 16 11:46:39 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've personally seen with my own eyes an IBM S/360/30 still operating in > an industrial setting. For what it is worth, the Taiwanese Navy still uses circa-1944 Mk 4 TDCs (Torpedo Data Computers) every day on their two ancient boats. Yes, analog, not digital. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 16 11:49:00 2003 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: from "vance@neurotica.com" at May 14, 2003 05:50:14 AM Message-ID: <20030516163501.351A57F83@dittman.net> > > Wonder if Storageworks ever offered an SDI/RA* series converter? > > Not that I've ever heard of. I would guess that most machines with an SDI > interface would have no trouble being equipped with a CI controller for > connection to an HSJ. The HSC controllers had an SDI interface available. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From acme at ao.net Fri May 16 11:55:01 2003 From: acme at ao.net (acme@ao.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> From: Thompson Family Date: 05/15/2003 6:37 PM > If you can't be unkind and unfair in speculating then why speculate at all? > Lighten up. You make a cryptic statement and naturally people are going to > react to it. Rushing to be mister sensitive is more annoying than cycinysm.. > and not nearly as entertaining. Jeffrey Sharp has made a tremendous contribution to this list, and therefore, to the cause of classic computing in general. There was nothing cryptic about his statement -- he simply stated what he is going to do. Additionally, people do not "naturally react" to another person's statement -- you chose to respond in the way that you did, and I certainly agree with Don's assesment of your choice. Glen 0/0 Don Maslin wrote: > > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > > accept what he said and let it go at that. > > - don From acme at ao.net Fri May 16 11:56:42 2003 From: acme at ao.net (acme@ao.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: BBS (was: In search of . . .) Message-ID: <200305161654.h4GGs2rV024689@eola.ao.net> From: Thompson Family Date: 05/15/2003 6:32 PM > What is a BBS? ROFLMAO! You're serious, aren't you? May I ask how old you are? Glen 0/0 From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 16 12:06:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: 5362 computer and similar Message-ID: <200305161704.KAA08097@clulw009.amd.com> Subject: 5362 computer Subject: IBM 5362 Subject: Re: Intellec 8 Etc. Hi These really look like address miner queries. I wonder if the people sending these queries even know what they are asking about? I don't recall cctalk@classiccmp.org as posting adds. Dwight From kth at srv.net Fri May 16 12:15:01 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Request for additional developers and testers (HPEMU) References: <005301c31bb6$dd12cae0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3EC52577.3010805@srv.net> Jay West wrote: >As many know, I have been working on an emulator (hpemu) for the HP 2100 >type computer systems for some time. An incredible amount of progress has >been made, however, I only have so much time I can dedicate to this project. >More importantly, I've wanted to find other people to "join the team" and >help work on it, but I needed to first get the API's and structure well >defined, coded, and tested first. That is certainly now done. In addition, I >finally decided the project will be released "open source". Actually, it >will be "dual licensed", with individual use being free and under the GPL >(just like the mysql license). Complete source code is available (as of the >pending alpha release) and free. > > How does it compare to the emulator available at http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ I don't know how complete the hp2100 is, but other simulators in this set are quite functional. Maybe these two could share information. From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri May 16 12:18:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW IIRC, There's something called ADT that'll move entire entire disk images back and forth.. (via serial) Much of it depends on what format you want the data to be in on the PC side. David On Thu, 15 May 2003, Witchy wrote: > Morning all, > > Another one for you :) > > Had a quick trawl of the archives 'cos I'm sure someone's mentioned doing > this, but the recent stuff isn't archived yet is it? Anyway, What's the best > way to get data off Apple ][e disks and onto something that has a CD burner > fastened to it? I've got a bunch of old disks here containing documents and > BASIC programs that need to be archived. > > I'm assuming null-modem cable connection between Apple/PC and file transfer > software? Xmodem or something like that? Kermit? > > Thanks in advance, > > -- > adrian/witchy > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum > www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From graeme at davies4924.fsnet.co.uk Fri May 16 12:24:00 2003 From: graeme at davies4924.fsnet.co.uk (graeme) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c31bcf$cf602230$b2024e51@graemedntzltme> Hi Picked up in good condition, all appears to work fine but no boot disk. Graeme -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Witchy Sent: 12 May 2003 11:16 To: cctech@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of graeme > Sent: 09 May 2003 21:20 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: (Fwd) MINC-11 available (UK) > > > Hi there > > I am interested and not to far away in Newcastle. Probably I could > collect Monday or wedensday. > > Graeme > Yay - 2 classiccmpers in Newcastle.....what are the chances of that? :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Fri May 16 12:37:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E51278A3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3EC5212C.71849CC@comcast.net> "Cini, Richard" wrote: > > Hello, all: > > This is a bit OT (because of the PC being used) but I believe that > the application of the solution is timeless :-) > > Anyway, I want to run a "book" PC on 12v while I'm outside using the > telescope (the PC will run the CCD camera setup). I gave some thought to > simply using an AC inverter, but converting 12v to 120v AC and then back to > PC power supply voltages seemed horribly inefficient. > > The power supply is rated 12v/5.5a and 5v/1a. It's an NLX-type > motherboard, so the 12v is converted to 5v for various peripherals at the > point of need. The 5v from the power supply is to support system standby > mode only. > > I went hunting for DC-input PC-form-factor supplies but they're > upwards of $200. I thought about directly connecting the battery to the PC > and using a small DC-DC converter for the 5v, but the battery voltage isn't > really 12v (it's more like 13.8v) so a regulator would be necessary. > > Any thoughts as to a simple, low-cost yet efficient solution? > > Rich Have you looked around http://www.mp3car.com? A site for putting PCs in your car, as a music source. Here's some DC-DC converters you could buy... http://www.mp3car.com/hardwarecats.asp?Type=H&Cat=P I vaguely remember seeing somewhere on that site a couple different plans for building your own supply... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 16 12:51:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: vance@neurotica.com "Re: Removing duct tape residue." (May 16, 3:55) References: Message-ID: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 3:55, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > I usually see isopropanol rather than methanol at the pharmacist. It may depend on the pharmacy, and methanol is more likely to be in the back room than the front shelf. IPA is sold as "rubbing alcohol" in the States, "methylated spirit" for a variety of purpose is commonly available in the UK and most of Europe -- it's a mixture of ethanol and methanol (plus dye). The point, however, is that methanol is a better solvent for felt-tip and ballpoint pen inks than isopropanol is, and that's what the original reference was about, IIRC. For glue residue (incl. duct tape), though, what we call "white spirit" or "turpentine substitute" (not to be confused with cellulose paint thinner) in the UK, is better than any of the common alcohols. None of the above will have any effect on most plastics, unlike toluene, MEK, acetone, ..., all of which are solvents for many plastics (in fact, for most non-waxy plastics, which leaves little but polythene and PTFE). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri May 16 12:53:00 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: An Invitation Message-ID: Hello fellow vintage computer fans, A few weeks ago I announced the creation of the Vintage Computer Forum (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum) and since then the response has been excellent! In just a few weeks we?ve had thousands of visits and hundreds of messages posted by dozens of new members with many more people coming by to have a look around. I promise that I won?t be posting my invitation repeatedly (I don?t want to spam the list), but I would once again like to encourage anyone interested in vintage computing topics to swing by the VC Forum to see what it?s all about and, hopefully, to sign up and participate in our discussions. Topical areas have been created for a wide variety of interests including Apple, Atari, Commodore, DEC, CP/M, S-100, Vintage Programming and many more; including some off-topic areas for those so inclined. Additional topics will be added as they are requested by the VC Forum community. Best regards, Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum From cb at mythtech.net Fri May 16 12:54:31 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: >Aww - what fun is that? How about this: > >Bill's Top 10 Reasons to Leave the Classic Computer Hobby OMFG!!! That is the funniest s* I have read in a while. You should think about sticking it on a shirt and selling them at the next VCF! Humm... mind if I make myself a shirt? -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 16 12:56:06 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E51278A3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030516134657.3cb7b33e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Rich, Any chance of using 48VDC? There's plenty of surplus industrial PCs (and PSUs) that run off of that. I've often wondered if you couldn't run a PC directly off of 12VDC (with a regulator to drop one line to 5VDC). Joe At 11:34 AM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > This is a bit OT (because of the PC being used) but I believe that >the application of the solution is timeless :-) > > Anyway, I want to run a "book" PC on 12v while I'm outside using the >telescope (the PC will run the CCD camera setup). I gave some thought to >simply using an AC inverter, but converting 12v to 120v AC and then back to >PC power supply voltages seemed horribly inefficient. > > The power supply is rated 12v/5.5a and 5v/1a. It's an NLX-type >motherboard, so the 12v is converted to 5v for various peripherals at the >point of need. The 5v from the power supply is to support system standby >mode only. > > I went hunting for DC-input PC-form-factor supplies but they're >upwards of $200. I thought about directly connecting the battery to the PC >and using a small DC-DC converter for the 5v, but the battery voltage isn't >really 12v (it's more like 13.8v) so a regulator would be necessary. > > Any thoughts as to a simple, low-cost yet efficient solution? > >Rich From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri May 16 12:58:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v Message-ID: <200305161757.KAA08130@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Another solution would be to buy a 12 to 120V converter and rewind the transformer to have the needed output voltages for the PC. I've rewound one to create voltages for my 20's battery powered radio. It isn't all that hard to do. This way you only have to one stage of conversion. The units for $200 are only that way because of the small demand. Combining a PC power supply with an inverter by rewinding the transformer is relatively simple. Dwight >From: "David Woyciesjes" > >"Cini, Richard" wrote: >> >> Hello, all: >> >> This is a bit OT (because of the PC being used) but I believe that >> the application of the solution is timeless :-) >> >> Anyway, I want to run a "book" PC on 12v while I'm outside using the >> telescope (the PC will run the CCD camera setup). I gave some thought to >> simply using an AC inverter, but converting 12v to 120v AC and then back to >> PC power supply voltages seemed horribly inefficient. >> >> The power supply is rated 12v/5.5a and 5v/1a. It's an NLX-type >> motherboard, so the 12v is converted to 5v for various peripherals at the >> point of need. The 5v from the power supply is to support system standby >> mode only. >> >> I went hunting for DC-input PC-form-factor supplies but they're >> upwards of $200. I thought about directly connecting the battery to the PC >> and using a small DC-DC converter for the 5v, but the battery voltage isn't >> really 12v (it's more like 13.8v) so a regulator would be necessary. >> >> Any thoughts as to a simple, low-cost yet efficient solution? >> >> Rich > > Have you looked around http://www.mp3car.com? A site for putting PCs in >your car, as a music source. Here's some DC-DC converters you could >buy... >http://www.mp3car.com/hardwarecats.asp?Type=H&Cat=P > I vaguely remember seeing somewhere on that site a couple different >plans for building your own supply... > >-- >--- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 16 13:12:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030516104634.00a41df0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> > > > There's a classic computing LIFESTYLE??? No one told me! How do I > > > get one? > > > > Go out and buy all sorts of old computer crap. Fill every inch of your > > living space with it. Go broke dragging the stuff around with you every You're not hardcore until you start replacing furniture with arrangements of old computers, ie the stacked Mac plus sofa, microvax endtables. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri May 16 13:32:01 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: > Go out and buy all sorts of old computer crap. Fill every inch of your > living space with it. Go broke dragging the stuff around with you every > move and trying to find a place to put it. I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to cost me a ton to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it because of the thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) Erik From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 16 13:34:01 2003 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: BBS (was: In search of . . .) In-Reply-To: <200305161654.h4GGs2rV024689@eola.ao.net> References: <200305161654.h4GGs2rV024689@eola.ao.net> Message-ID: <3EC52E75.90306@mdrconsult.com> acme@ao.net wrote: > From: Thompson Family > Date: 05/15/2003 6:32 PM > >>What is a BBS? > > ROFLMAO! You're serious, aren't you? > > May I ask how old you are? Young enough to think that an "unkind and unfair" (which it most certainly was) response to an honest post is definsible? Doc From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri May 16 13:36:00 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030516192645.02cf8e60@pop.freeserve.net> At 09:50 15/05/2003 +0100, Witchy wrote: >Made by STAG in 1984, it's got a model number of PP16A and features a socket >for a cartridge containing the master EPROM and a module containing 16 EPROM >sockets for new EPROMS, so obviously you feed it a master and it makes up to >16 copies. > >Under the hood it's actually a 6809 based micro with 2K RAM and the board >has holes ready for 2 COMM sockets, so does anyone remember these beasts? >It'd be great if I could add on the serial ports and talk to it using a >PeeCee for making ROM backups I remember these being in use at Ferranti, when I was an apprentice there about 20 years ago .. (so age fits!) AFAICR we only ever used them in stand-alone mode as a bulk copier. They were also RENTED, from Livingston Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so there may be a chance you can find some old docs from them. Rob From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 16 13:37:36 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <004201c31bd8$cae1fe00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> How many people keep something as nasty as MEK in their house? Generally if your trying to disolve something then pick a solvent in the same family as the ink is made out of. like disolves like is a general rule. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Turnbull" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Removing duct tape residue. > On May 16, 3:55, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > > I usually see isopropanol rather than methanol at the pharmacist. > > It may depend on the pharmacy, and methanol is more likely to be in the > back room than the front shelf. IPA is sold as "rubbing alcohol" in > the States, "methylated spirit" for a variety of purpose is commonly > available in the UK and most of Europe -- it's a mixture of ethanol and > methanol (plus dye). The point, however, is that methanol is a better > solvent for felt-tip and ballpoint pen inks than isopropanol is, and > that's what the original reference was about, IIRC. > > For glue residue (incl. duct tape), though, what we call "white spirit" > or "turpentine substitute" (not to be confused with cellulose paint > thinner) in the UK, is better than any of the common alcohols. > > None of the above will have any effect on most plastics, unlike > toluene, MEK, acetone, ..., all of which are solvents for many plastics > (in fact, for most non-waxy plastics, which leaves little but polythene > and PTFE). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 16 13:42:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC48BC8.8030301@internet1.net> Message-ID: Sandblast (bead blast for more delicate surfaces repaint > And clean is better than all marked up. Such as that O1 that Adam autographed From pcw at mesanet.com Fri May 16 13:51:00 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Peter Turnbull wrote: > On May 16, 3:55, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > > I usually see isopropanol rather than methanol at the pharmacist. > > It may depend on the pharmacy, and methanol is more likely to be in the > back room than the front shelf. IPA is sold as "rubbing alcohol" in > the States, "methylated spirit" for a variety of purpose is commonly > available in the UK and most of Europe -- it's a mixture of ethanol and > methanol (plus dye). The point, however, is that methanol is a better > solvent for felt-tip and ballpoint pen inks than isopropanol is, and > that's what the original reference was about, IIRC. > > For glue residue (incl. duct tape), though, what we call "white spirit" > or "turpentine substitute" (not to be confused with cellulose paint > thinner) in the UK, is better than any of the common alcohols. Kerosene, Stoddard solvent or Toner dispersant are about the same as "White spirit" I like to use Toner dispersant since its really clean and practically odorless (mostly pure isoparafine). Deodorised kerosene for camp stoves is also good and pretty cheap... > > None of the above will have any effect on most plastics, unlike > toluene, MEK, acetone, ..., all of which are solvents for many plastics > (in fact, for most non-waxy plastics, which leaves little but polythene > and PTFE). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Peter Wallace From cb at mythtech.net Fri May 16 13:53:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: >I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to cost me a ton >to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it because of the >thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. > >Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that sh*t with us when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I have in my barn. I'm still trying to figure out who the "We" was referring to. :-) -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 16 14:07:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: Message-ID: <005701c31bdd$34d80300$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> When does a hobby turn into an obsesion or compulsion? My small collection is relatively new, and pretty much focussed on game machines (c64,c128, IIgs, Amiga 500,1200,atari ST, etc) and a few 68k macs, powermacs, and a bunch of PC's. They dont take up that much space, not like a mainframe anyway, and run off of 120VAC. Oh, and wives have been known to make their husbands throw out their collections of whatever so they can store their own stuff like clothes, shoes, antiques. Some of that is practicle, some of it is just taking control. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > >I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to cost me a ton > >to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it because of the > >thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. > > > >Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) > > My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that sh*t with us > when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I have in my > barn. > > I'm still trying to figure out who the "We" was referring to. :-) > > -chris > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 16 14:51:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <004201c31bd8$cae1fe00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! Joe At 02:27 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >How many people keep something as nasty as MEK in their house? >Generally if your trying to disolve something then pick a solvent in the >same family as the ink is made out of. like disolves like is a general rule. > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Peter Turnbull" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 1:49 PM >Subject: Re: Removing duct tape residue. > > >> On May 16, 3:55, vance@neurotica.com wrote: >> > I usually see isopropanol rather than methanol at the pharmacist. >> >> It may depend on the pharmacy, and methanol is more likely to be in the >> back room than the front shelf. IPA is sold as "rubbing alcohol" in >> the States, "methylated spirit" for a variety of purpose is commonly >> available in the UK and most of Europe -- it's a mixture of ethanol and >> methanol (plus dye). The point, however, is that methanol is a better >> solvent for felt-tip and ballpoint pen inks than isopropanol is, and >> that's what the original reference was about, IIRC. >> >> For glue residue (incl. duct tape), though, what we call "white spirit" >> or "turpentine substitute" (not to be confused with cellulose paint >> thinner) in the UK, is better than any of the common alcohols. >> >> None of the above will have any effect on most plastics, unlike >> toluene, MEK, acetone, ..., all of which are solvents for many plastics >> (in fact, for most non-waxy plastics, which leaves little but polythene >> and PTFE). >> >> -- >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Network Manager >> University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 16 14:52:46 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030516153023.442739b4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Chris, Where do you live? I'll come and help relieve you of your "burdon". :-) Joe At 02:50 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >>I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to cost me a ton >>to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it because of the >>thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. >> >>Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) > >My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that sh*t with us >when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I have in my >barn. > >I'm still trying to figure out who the "We" was referring to. :-) > >-chris > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 16 14:54:17 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030516192645.02cf8e60@pop.freeserve.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030516152703.3cbfdbde@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have a Stag 39M100 with one plug-in for programming EPROMs and another for programming embedded micro-processors. I found the docs for it on a site in France. Stag is utterly worthless when it comes to support. I'll never buy or recommend anything from them. Glen G has a bigger gang programmer and I think he has a real manual for it. Joe At 07:29 PM 5/16/03 +0100, you wrote: >At 09:50 15/05/2003 +0100, Witchy wrote: > >>Made by STAG in 1984, it's got a model number of PP16A and features a socket >>for a cartridge containing the master EPROM and a module containing 16 EPROM >>sockets for new EPROMS, so obviously you feed it a master and it makes up to >>16 copies. >> >>Under the hood it's actually a 6809 based micro with 2K RAM and the board >>has holes ready for 2 COMM sockets, so does anyone remember these beasts? >>It'd be great if I could add on the serial ports and talk to it using a >>PeeCee for making ROM backups > > >I remember these being in use at Ferranti, when I was an apprentice there >about 20 years ago .. (so age fits!) AFAICR we only ever used them in >stand-alone mode as a bulk copier. They were also RENTED, from Livingston >Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so there may be >a chance you can find some old docs from them. > >Rob From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 16 14:55:50 2003 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: BBS (was: In search of . . .) In-Reply-To: <3EC52E75.90306@mdrconsult.com> References: <200305161654.h4GGs2rV024689@eola.ao.net> <200305161654.h4GGs2rV024689@eola.ao.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030516154723.00b1d640@mail.wincom.net> At 02:31 PM 16/05/2003, you wrote: >acme@ao.net wrote: >>From: Thompson Family >>Date: 05/15/2003 6:32 PM >> >>>What is a BBS? >>ROFLMAO! You're serious, aren't you? >>May I ask how old you are? > > Young enough to think that an "unkind and unfair" (which it most > certainly was) response to an honest post is definsible? > > Doc A BBS was a "Bulletin Board System". A computer connected to a dedicated phone line and equipped to take messages or supply files to callers. They soon disappeared when the internet became popular. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From brian.roth at fnfg.com Fri May 16 15:11:00 2003 From: brian.roth at fnfg.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: Brian Roth Network Administrator A+ N+ CNA CCNA Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com >>> rigdonj@cfl.rr.com 05/16/03 03:30PM >>> Chris, I'm moving into a new house in three weeks. My wife keeps taking about the lawn and flowers. The basement is all mine. Where do you live? I'll come and help relieve you of your "burdon". :-) Joe ***************************************************************************** ********************* The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ***************************************************************************** ********************* BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:roth, brian TEL;WORK:2186 ORG:;Network Services TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com N:roth;brian X-GWUSERID:1372 END:VCARD From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 16 15:25:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001201c31be8$19a4cfe0$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Yes, but at one point in time not that long ago people used to clean their hands with the stuff (guess thats why we live longer now). I am afraid to find out what solvents and chemicals my father has in the garage these days. Anyway the problem with computers is that the texture that makes markers and sticky stuff so hard to clean off the plastic is easily damaged with solvents and ruins the look of the part. MEK would actually disolve common plastics (and has been used to do just that). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Removing duct tape residue. > MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an > individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > > Joe > > At 02:27 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: > >How many people keep something as nasty as MEK in their house? > >Generally if your trying to disolve something then pick a solvent in the > >same family as the ink is made out of. like disolves like is a general rule. > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Peter Turnbull" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 1:49 PM > >Subject: Re: Removing duct tape residue. > > > > > >> On May 16, 3:55, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > >> > I usually see isopropanol rather than methanol at the pharmacist. > >> > >> It may depend on the pharmacy, and methanol is more likely to be in the > >> back room than the front shelf. IPA is sold as "rubbing alcohol" in > >> the States, "methylated spirit" for a variety of purpose is commonly > >> available in the UK and most of Europe -- it's a mixture of ethanol and > >> methanol (plus dye). The point, however, is that methanol is a better > >> solvent for felt-tip and ballpoint pen inks than isopropanol is, and > >> that's what the original reference was about, IIRC. > >> > >> For glue residue (incl. duct tape), though, what we call "white spirit" > >> or "turpentine substitute" (not to be confused with cellulose paint > >> thinner) in the UK, is better than any of the common alcohols. > >> > >> None of the above will have any effect on most plastics, unlike > >> toluene, MEK, acetone, ..., all of which are solvents for many plastics > >> (in fact, for most non-waxy plastics, which leaves little but polythene > >> and PTFE). > >> > >> -- > >> Pete Peter Turnbull > >> Network Manager > >> University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 16 15:33:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: Message-ID: <001901c31be9$4657e080$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> I keep alot of my collection in the basement also, any long term problems with computer parts and slightly higher then average humidity? ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian roth" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > Brian Roth > Network Administrator > A+ N+ CNA CCNA > Network Services > First Niagara Bank > (716) 625-7500 X2186 > Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com > > >>> rigdonj@cfl.rr.com 05/16/03 03:30PM >>> > Chris, > I'm moving into a new house in three weeks. > My wife keeps taking about the lawn and flowers. > > The basement is all mine. > > Where do you live? I'll come and help relieve you of your "burdon". :-) > > Joe > > > > > > **************************************************************************** * > ********************* > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. > It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. > If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or > the > sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make > copies. > > ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** > **************************************************************************** * > ********************* > BEGIN:VCARD > VERSION:2.1 > X-GWTYPE:USER > FN:roth, brian > TEL;WORK:2186 > ORG:;Network Services > TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 > EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com > N:roth;brian > X-GWUSERID:1372 > END:VCARD From brian.roth at fnfg.com Fri May 16 15:59:00 2003 From: brian.roth at fnfg.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: Not with a dehumidifier and insulation. Also radiant heat helps. Brian Roth Network Administrator A+ N+ CNA CCNA Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com >>> teoz@neo.rr.com 05/16/03 04:25PM >>> >I keep alot of my collection in the basement also, any long term problems >with computer parts and slightly higher then average humidity? >----- Original Message ----- From: "brian roth" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby ***************************************************************************** ********************* The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ***************************************************************************** ********************* BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:roth, brian TEL;WORK:2186 ORG:;Network Services TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com N:roth;brian X-GWUSERID:1372 END:VCARD From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 16 16:02:01 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Request for additional developers and testers (HPEMU) References: <005301c31bb6$dd12cae0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3EC52577.3010805@srv.net> Message-ID: <012701c31bed$fc9f4000$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Kevin wrote.... > How does it compare to the emulator available at > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ > > I don't know how complete the hp2100 is, but other simulators in this > set are > quite functional. Well, mine is better of course *GRIN* Not that I'm biased or anything :) But seriously... they are pretty different designs from what I have seen. First, let me caveat - I have only looked at SIMH in a very cursory fashion, so what I'm about to say are "first blush" reactions off the top of my head. I may be wrong. Your mileage (opinions) may vary. Nuff said. Please folks, I'm NOT disparaging SIMH or it's authors. SIMH is designed to support many different cpu's. HPEMU is designed and written from the ground up specifically to emulate one particular cpu (and all associated peripherals). I'm sure that anyone on this list has the technical ability to elucidate the obvious conclusions of that with regards to differences, efficiency, etc. Think for a moment about the code a programmer has to generate for the two cases, and then compare. That's it in a nutshell. If you want an emulator that supports many different cpus, go with SIMH! It does that very well. You have one emulator to learn to run all your emulated machines. That's a great advantage for SIMH. If you are an HP 2100 lover, I think you'll find the HPEMU program much easier to use, and more importantly, if you're so inclined, to modify. Anyone familiar with C and the HP2100 systems will be immediately right at home reading and modifying the source code to the emulator. SIMH however, because it has support for different cpu's - brings in an "abstraction layer". Housekeeping stuff. So a 2100 programmer would look at modifying the code and have a harder time "getting acclamated to the SIMH infrastructure (internals) and way of doing things" if you will. Succinctly put, to modify SIMH you have to learn SIMH nuances and paradigms. With HPEMU, you already know what you need to know basically (assuming we're talking 2100 people). Another ramification of this is - adding additional devices that aren't supported initially. From what I can tell, adding additional peripherals is much easier in HPEMU (for people who know 2100 stuff). Of course it is, because only peripherals that adhere to the HP internal I/O structure would EVER be added to this emulator. SIMH code has to account for lots of different peripherals with totally different I/O architectures. Does this make SIMH bad? Not at all! Just different. In fact, it makes it more general purpose and robust. HPEMU on the other hand tries to do one specific thing directly and well. There's another critical difference. HPEMU runs on unix. Period. I doubt that it could ever be ported to Winblows or DOS as HPEMU uses too many facillities that I don't think exist on Windows/DOS, even with Cygwin. There are some benefits to this though. With HPEMU, everything in your emulated system is a separate process. Each cpu, and for that matter each I/O interface card in the cpu, and each peripherial device is a separate unix process. Thus, the experimental code you wrote to emulate a 7925 disc drive for example, is incapable of crashing the running cpu code. If your experimental 7925 disc drive code goes south, you can kill it, and start up another one, and your main cpu keeps right on reading the paper tape from the emulated 2748 reader. These processes are started up when the executive starts, and it only starts processes for the devices you specify are in the virtual computer system (so you don't get a huge executable capable of every device the emulator supports). And yes, it already supports MULTIPLE computer SYSTEMS. Right now today you could start one copy of HPEMU up and instantly get a virtual computer room. Multiple complete computer systems, some with multiple cpu's each. And you can specify connections between the computer systems, not just between the devices in a single computer system. Go right ahead and put a virtual synch modem card in one of your cpus, and designate it's TCP socket (or com port on your pc) and have it run RJE with another system across the net. And because each entity (circuit card) is a separate process, HPEMU actually takes advantage of SMP systems. Create yourself a virtual HP2000/Access (dual cpu) system on a real dual processor computer and each emulated cpu can get a separate real cpu! Future Plans: Some hints.... each peripheral (and the cpu) physically being accessible via any web browser. By physically I mean, from anywhere on the net, pull up a picture of your running paper tape reader. Click on the LOAD button. Drag and drop a different paper tape to it. Click on the READ button. Click on the appropriate S-register bits of the cpu, Preset, Run... watch your tape load....just like the real thing. Hum... would it be too cutesy if it simultaneously played a sound file in the browser of the sound of a real paper tape reader loading? Then telnet to the system and run the program (or OS) you just loaded. With HPEMU, everything in the user interface has been very carefully designed around the experience of using the REAL hardware. For example, it would have been easy to provide a single command to load a tape into the paper tape reader and that's the end of the story. But no... in HPEMU, you actually have to press the capstan engage button too, just like the real thing. This type of extreme attention to physical details isn't really addressed by SIMH to my knowledge. To do so would be inappropriate and cumbersome I would think, given that it supports many different computers. My goal is to not only be able to run TSB on it, but RTE as well. I suspect (not positive) there's a lot of additional work SIMH would have to do to get support for an RTE load. I really didn't write HPEMU to compete with SIMH. Years ago, I wanted to run HP2000 on an emulator and at the time SIMH didn't support most of the stuff needed to do this on a 2100. I looked at the code for SIMH and found I would be learning a lot of overhead stuff to learn how to code something into SIMH (I don't mean this in a bad way). So I started writing my own. HPEMU isn't targeted at people who want to run different computer systems (DEC, DG, etc.). For a 2100 purist who wants something that he'll immediately understand the nitty gritty internals of, I hope they use it and like it. Afterall, if no one ever uses HPEMU, that's fine too. It's become a labor of love really, and I am happy with it. But it also gives people (2100 users anyways) a choice, and I personally think choice is a good thing. > Maybe these two could share information. There has definitely been information exchanged, albeit indirectly, over time. There may have been one or two direct exchanges in the past, I'm honestly not sure. Regards, Jay West From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri May 16 16:29:00 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: > >I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to cost me a ton > >to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it because of the > >thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. > > > >Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) > > My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that sh*t with us > when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I have in my > barn. > > I'm still trying to figure out who the "We" was referring to. :-) Fortunately my wife is as big of a packrat as I am. She's got her "junk" and I've got mine. Hopefully you work out who that "we" is pretty quickly! Erik www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum From vaxzilla at jarai.org Fri May 16 16:33:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:40 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, brian roth wrote: > Not with a dehumidifier and insulation. Also radiant heat helps. The last of which you can get just by running the systems. -brian. From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 16 16:37:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis References: Message-ID: <001e01c31bf3$2c418480$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> OK makes sense.. sort of went the way of the knothole in a tree at the crossroads... to stick notes in.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:15 PM Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > > > No I am not kidding.. > > > > BBS is an acronym for Bulletin Board System. A BBS is typically a single > user message base/file download system that is accessed by modem. > > Check out http://www.bbsdocumentary.com > > g. From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 16 16:41:01 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> Message-ID: <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > From: Thompson Family > Date: 05/15/2003 6:37 PM > > > If you can't be unkind and unfair in speculating then why speculate at all? > > Lighten up. You make a cryptic statement and naturally people are going to > > react to it. Rushing to be mister sensitive is more annoying than cycinysm.. > > and not nearly as entertaining. > > Jeffrey Sharp has made a tremendous contribution to this list, and therefore, > to the cause of classic computing in general. There was nothing cryptic about > his statement -- he simply stated what he is going to do. > > Additionally, people do not "naturally react" to another person's statement -- > you chose to respond in the way that you did, and I certainly agree with Don's > assesment of your choice. > > Glen > 0/0 > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > > > accept what he said and let it go at that. > > > - don From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 16 16:44:01 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis References: <200305152348.TAA31058@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00b101c31bf4$23caa880$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> I'd have to have been alive then. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > And thusly Thompson Family spake: > > > > No I am not kidding.. > > > > ACK! Excuse me for asking, but have you ever used a computer in the 80's?! > (or earlier...) > > BBS = Bulletin Board System. > > Computer. Modem. Call other computer with modem. Connect. ANSI. > X-modem. Bliss. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gene Buckle" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:02 PM > > Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > > > > > > > > What is a BBS? > > > > > > You're kidding, right? > > > > > > g. From shirsch at adelphia.net Fri May 16 16:54:00 2003 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Witchy wrote: > Morning all, > > Another one for you :) > > Had a quick trawl of the archives 'cos I'm sure someone's mentioned doing > this, but the recent stuff isn't archived yet is it? Anyway, What's the best > way to get data off Apple ][e disks and onto something that has a CD burner > fastened to it? I've got a bunch of old disks here containing documents and > BASIC programs that need to be archived. > > I'm assuming null-modem cable connection between Apple/PC and file transfer > software? Xmodem or something like that? Kermit? If you have the hardware and the patience to get it all working together, I suggest AppleTalk networking. I have a IIgs and //e networked off a Linux box (running Netatalk). Works very well for mass file-copying, it's fast and the file dates are preserved properly. You'll need (at a minimum): - Ethernet <---> LocalTalk bridge. I use a Shiva FastPath 4, but there are dozens of models which are reported to work. Gator Box is one I've heard a lot about. - Apple //e + Apple Workstation card and/or - Apple IIgs (Rom 3 preferable) Server can be a Mac, in which case the necessary protocols are (or should be) there already. For Linux, you need appletalk support in the kernel and the very latest version of netatalk. For configuration info, read the docs. Then, read the docs. Finally, read the code . Steve From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 16 17:00:01 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225512.3cefde20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00da01c31bf6$53e865f0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> LOL I have a teletype and all the original receipts, manuals and service bulletins. Times are changing. Of course I got it and a big stash of other stuff from someone who left it at my brother's house during a divorce. He disappears and after 15 years or so I got it. I have been picking up the odd piece here and there just because they are cheap and here seems to be a market for them. I never heard of a BBS. It ranks up there with butter churn parts and knowledge of how to crank start a car. It is good to know but it is not something you'd run across - well except here. It is interesting to think of all the detailed knowledge lost throughout history as it simply had no use and was not preserved. Computing has gone the path of automobiles. The first generation of owners were hobbyists, mechanics and it evolved into an everyday thing. They have become collectible the same as baskets, old weather vanes and Stickley chairs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > At 09:43 PM 5/15/03 -0400, you wrote: > >>What is a BBS? > > > >Yikes. My first reaction was this must be a joke. Someone on this list > >doesn't know what a BBS is. > > Next he'll want to know what a Teletype is! :-/ > > Joe From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 17:12:01 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: TO THE PERSON who posted this nonsense: >Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" You're being a jerk and I just want you to know that. I don't want to discuss it or weigh the options. We don't need to analyze it or form a committee. You're being a jerk and, if you can't handle being told that, then maybe you should reconsider your position and take appropriate corrective action. Aside from that, be a man, put on your big boy pants, let me have the last word on this and we can all go back to talking about computer collecting. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 12:54 PM >Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > > >> From: Thompson Family >> Date: 05/15/2003 6:37 PM >> >> > If you can't be unkind and unfair in speculating then why speculate at >all? >> > Lighten up. You make a cryptic statement and naturally people are going >to >> > react to it. Rushing to be mister sensitive is more annoying than >cycinysm.. >> > and not nearly as entertaining. >> >> Jeffrey Sharp has made a tremendous contribution to this list, and >therefore, >> to the cause of classic computing in general. There was nothing cryptic >about >> his statement -- he simply stated what he is going to do. >> >> Additionally, people do not "naturally react" to another person's >statement -- >> you chose to respond in the way that you did, and I certainly agree with >Don's >> assesment of your choice. >> >> Glen >> 0/0 >> >> Don Maslin wrote: >> >> > > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > > > > accept what he said and let it go at that. > > > > - don From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 17:20:00 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: MY APOLOGIES! I did not mean to post my response to the list! I meant it to go privately. It was an honest mistake. I would never post something like that publicly. Of course, I'll stand by my words. But I apologize for the error. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa >TO THE PERSON who posted this nonsense: > >>Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 17:23:00 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Funky Find In-Reply-To: <958B228E6A626242A3FEAB621C4C933550A916@exch2000.cmh.internal> References: <958B228E6A626242A3FEAB621C4C933550A916@exch2000.cmh.internal> Message-ID: I was at an art store garage sale today and picked up a bunch of Mac stuff for virtually nothing. One item perplexes me. It's relabeled by Agfa but was produced by a company called Matrix Instruments and is called a MacHarmony. It appears to be a IEEE-488 interface that works with Mac SCSI? Does anyone have information on this? Does anyone have manuals or software? Does anyone want to make an offer for it? Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 16 17:42:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> False shock and sentimentality went the way of the mullet. Just ignore me if you don't like me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "VaxCat" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > TO THE PERSON who posted this nonsense: > > >Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" > > You're being a jerk and I just want you to know that. I don't > want to discuss it or weigh the options. We don't need to > analyze it or form a committee. > > You're being a jerk and, if you can't handle being > told that, then maybe you should reconsider your position and > take appropriate corrective action. > > Aside from that, be a man, put on your big boy pants, > let me have the last word on this > and we can all go back to talking about computer collecting. > > Anthony Clifton > Des Moines, Iowa > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 12:54 PM > >Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > > > > > >> From: Thompson Family > >> Date: 05/15/2003 6:37 PM > >> > >> > If you can't be unkind and unfair in speculating then why speculate at > >all? > >> > Lighten up. You make a cryptic statement and naturally people are going > >to > >> > react to it. Rushing to be mister sensitive is more annoying than > >cycinysm.. > >> > and not nearly as entertaining. > >> > >> Jeffrey Sharp has made a tremendous contribution to this list, and > >therefore, > >> to the cause of classic computing in general. There was nothing cryptic > >about > >> his statement -- he simply stated what he is going to do. > >> > >> Additionally, people do not "naturally react" to another person's > >statement -- > >> you chose to respond in the way that you did, and I certainly agree with > >Don's > >> assesment of your choice. > >> > >> Glen > >> 0/0 > >> > >> Don Maslin wrote: > >> > >> > > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > > > > > accept what he said and let it go at that. > > > > > - don From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Fri May 16 17:43:51 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Accepted ----- Original Message ----- From: "VaxCat" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > MY APOLOGIES! > > I did not mean to post my response to the list! I meant it to > go privately. It was an honest mistake. I would never post > something like that publicly. > > Of course, I'll stand by my words. But I apologize for the > error. > > Anthony Clifton > Des Moines, Iowa > > >TO THE PERSON who posted this nonsense: > > > >>Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 16 17:49:01 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Joe wrote: > At 02:27 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: > > > How many people keep something as nasty as MEK in their house? > > Generally if your trying to disolve something then pick a solvent in > > the same family as the ink is made out of. like disolves like is a > > general rule. > > MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for > an individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! Are you sure? I have a small glass bottle of it that I've been using to bond ABS plastic, for which it works very good. The last time (a year ago?) I looked into buying a larger quantity from a chemical company, it was still available... -Toth From donm at cts.com Fri May 16 17:51:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516022308.00a40b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Mail List wrote: > Hello Jim, > > > Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. > > That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Read this as "Hoppe's Gunpowder Residue Solvent" a liquid. - don > Yes, but the previous paragraph was about the kinder and gentler > alcohol / comet cleanser paste. Just requires mucho more elbow > grease. I'd bet the comet is similar to your Hoppe's Powder, but > not being a specialty product, probably is lower in cost, and being > found in every grocery store, more readily available. > > Once you've tried it and gotten comfortable with the acetone technique, ie. > learned when it might work for you, and how to go about it, etc. It doesn't > really damage an item, it just modifies it. Smooth finish plastic is all right > too. And clean is better than all marked up. But, the amount of time you > wish to put into the scrubbing techniques will be dependant upon how > important it is to you to keep it in as close to original condition as > possible, > and how much time you have to make available to do so. > > > > > > At 10:49 PM 5/15/03 -0700, you wrote: > >That's why I use Hoppe's Powder Solvent. Removes the ink w/o damaging the > >plastic. (Many gun parts are plastic these days...) Many industrial > >solvents are also plastic solvents. Acetone, methyl chloride, toluene... > >Not good for plastic. I was given the Hoppe's solution by an acquaintance > >whose business is buying last year's PCs from gov't auctions and reselling > >retail. Damage is an unacceptable consequence of cleaning. Lowers the > >retail value and hence the profit. > > > >Jim > > > >Mail List wrote: > > > >>Acetone will also take sharpie off plastic too, but it will take some plastic > >>with it, and leave textured surfaces smooth afterwards. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 16 17:54:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > From: "VaxCat" > > > MY APOLOGIES! > > > > I did not mean to post my response to the list! I meant it to go > > privately. It was an honest mistake. I would never post something > > like that publicly. > > > > Of course, I'll stand by my words. > > But I apologize for the error. > > Accepted *plonk* -Toth From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 18:00:00 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: Ah, so you choose to be a child. You want it public. So be it. False shock and sentimentality? Apparently, your reading comprehension also went the way of the mullet. I was expressing neither. My message was fairly simple and direct. It requires no embellishment on your part. And you're still a jerk. As for your complaints that people are oversensitive and they should just ignore you, these are common tactics of bullies. You do not impress me and I will not tolerate a bully. Say anything you like to me. Unlike you, I can take it. You use words to hurt others and then tell them they shouldn't be hurt. I use them to tell you that your behavior is unacceptable. Let's see whose words ring more true. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa >False shock and sentimentality went the way of the mullet. Just ignore me if >you don't like me. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "VaxCat" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 6:07 PM >Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > > >> TO THE PERSON who posted this nonsense: >> >> >Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" >> >> You're being a jerk and I just want you to know that. I don't >> want to discuss it or weigh the options. We don't need to >> analyze it or form a committee. >> >> You're being a jerk and, if you can't handle being >> told that, then maybe you should reconsider your position and >> take appropriate corrective action. >> >> Aside from that, be a man, put on your big boy pants, >> let me have the last word on this >> and we can all go back to talking about computer collecting. >> >> Anthony Clifton >> Des Moines, Iowa >> >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: >> >To: >> >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 12:54 PM >> >Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby >> > >> > >> >> From: Thompson Family >> >> Date: 05/15/2003 6:37 PM >> >> >> >> > If you can't be unkind and unfair in speculating then why speculate >at >> >all? >> >> > Lighten up. You make a cryptic statement and naturally people are >going >> >to >> >> > react to it. Rushing to be mister sensitive is more annoying than >> >cycinysm.. >> >> > and not nearly as entertaining. >> >> >> >> Jeffrey Sharp has made a tremendous contribution to this list, and >> >therefore, >> >> to the cause of classic computing in general. There was nothing >cryptic >> >about >> >> his statement -- he simply stated what he is going to do. >> >> >> >> Additionally, people do not "naturally react" to another person's >> >statement -- >> >> you chose to respond in the way that you did, and I certainly agree >with >> >Don's >> >> assesment of your choice. >> >> >> >> Glen >> >> 0/0 >> >> >> >> Don Maslin wrote: >> >> >> >> > > I think it is unfair and unkind to speculate like that. Just > > > > > > accept what he said and let it go at that. > > > > > > - don From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 18:02:00 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: That was clever. >Accepted >----- Original Message ----- >From: "VaxCat" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 6:15 PM >Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > > >> MY APOLOGIES! >> >> I did not mean to post my response to the list! I meant it to >> go privately. It was an honest mistake. I would never post >> something like that publicly. >> >> Of course, I'll stand by my words. But I apologize for the >> error. >> >> Anthony Clifton >> Des Moines, Iowa > > > > >TO THE PERSON who posted this nonsense: > > > > > >>Lets all hold hands and sing "feelings" From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 16 18:04:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: <3EC48BC8.8030301@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516185935.054c1b60@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> >> And clean is better than all marked up. > Such as that O1 that Adam autographed Then the GSA surplus employees wrote "LOT 42" right over top of it. At 11:41 AM 5/16/03 -0700, you wrote: >Sandblast (bead blast for more delicate surfaces >repaint > > > > > And clean is better than all marked up. > >Such as that O1 that Adam autographed From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 16 18:06:00 2003 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <3EC56E42.8040209@mdrconsult.com> Thompson Family wrote: > False shock and sentimentality went the way of the mullet. Just ignore me if > you don't like me. Just a word of reasonable advice, although I don't think you'll get it even if you _are_ paying attention. Most of the folk on this list are old, by your standards. We play by odl-fart rules and principles. Two of those principles are friendship and sympathy, or at least empathy. We don't give a rat's ass if those things are old-fashioned or outmoded. And, like any group of humans, we take offense when those principles, or the way we express them, are ridiculed by some wet-eared, tinhorn punk. I'm sure you realize that you're perfectly free to post most anything you want to this list. I wonder if you realize how close you are to being the only one on the list who even *sees* your posts, much less reads them. In other words, is "killfile" on the very short list of things you understand? Doc From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 16 18:08:01 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <001901c31be9$4657e080$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516190507.054d6010@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> > any long term problems with computer parts and slightly higher then average humidity? Corrosion. Oxidation. At 04:25 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >I keep alot of my collection in the basement also, any long term problems >with computer parts and slightly higher then average humidity? > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "brian roth" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 4:07 PM >Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > > > > Brian Roth > > Network Administrator > > A+ N+ CNA CCNA > > Network Services > > First Niagara Bank > > (716) 625-7500 X2186 > > Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com > > > > >>> rigdonj@cfl.rr.com 05/16/03 03:30PM >>> > > Chris, > > I'm moving into a new house in three weeks. > > My wife keeps taking about the lawn and flowers. > > > > The basement is all mine. > > > > Where do you live? I'll come and help relieve you of your "burdon". :-) > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > >**************************************************************************** >* > > ********************* > > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. > > It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. > > If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager >or > > the > > sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make > > copies. > > > > ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** > > >**************************************************************************** >* > > ********************* > > BEGIN:VCARD > > VERSION:2.1 > > X-GWTYPE:USER > > FN:roth, brian > > TEL;WORK:2186 > > ORG:;Network Services > > TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 > > EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com > > N:roth;brian > > X-GWUSERID:1372 > > END:VCARD From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 16 18:13:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <00da01c31bf6$53e865f0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225512.3cefde20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516190945.054c5400@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> > It is interesting to think of all the detailed knowledge lost throughout history But it almost seems like it was only yesterday. At 05:58 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >LOL I have a teletype and all the original receipts, manuals and service >bulletins. >Times are changing. Of course I got it and a big stash of other stuff from >someone who left it at my brother's house during a divorce. He disappears >and after 15 years or so I got it. I have been picking up the odd piece here >and there just because they are cheap and here seems to be a market for >them. > >I never heard of a BBS. It ranks up there with butter churn parts and >knowledge of how to crank start a car. It is good to know but it is not >something you'd run across - well except here. It is interesting to think >of all the detailed knowledge lost throughout history as it simply had no >use and was not preserved. > >Computing has gone the path of automobiles. The first generation of owners >were hobbyists, mechanics and it evolved into an everyday thing. They have >become collectible the same as baskets, old weather vanes and Stickley >chairs. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe" >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 6:55 PM >Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > > > > At 09:43 PM 5/15/03 -0400, you wrote: > > >>What is a BBS? > > > > > >Yikes. My first reaction was this must be a joke. Someone on this list > > >doesn't know what a BBS is. > > > > Next he'll want to know what a Teletype is! :-/ > > > > Joe From patrick at evocative.com Fri May 16 18:23:00 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Humidty (was RE: Leaving the hobby) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516190507.054d6010@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: > any long term problems with computer parts and slightly higher then > average humidity? Sure, but those are also problems for your house if they are a sustained condition of your basement. Fix for the house, and the parts will be happier too. --Patrick From allain at panix.com Fri May 16 18:25:01 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <3EC56E42.8040209@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c31c02$0a264b60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Boy, the purpose of the fight thread sure missed me, so it would be appreciated if you both go off line, and not waste hundreds of peoples' time. John A. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 16 18:31:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: Easily-accessible Internet service unimpeded by IQ tests or Emotional Maturity Indices reduces classiccmp, once again, to a *new* lowest common denominator. And, to add to the goodness, one or more of you assholes don't even have the apparent synaptic resources to understand how to trim your numbingly juvenile 'responses'. Probably time for me to bow to reason and just subscribe to cctech - it irks me that a few shitheads have the obvious right to hijack this rare resource - were it up to me, there'd be some permanent list subscription deletions already. But it ain't. O well... John From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 18:33:00 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <00ac01c31c02$0a264b60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <3EC56E42.8040209@mdrconsult.com> <00ac01c31c02$0a264b60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: That's cool. You're right. Actually, it's a waste of my time too. A little perspective never hurt anyone. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa. >Boy, the purpose of the fight thread sure missed me, >so it would be appreciated if you both go off line, >and not waste hundreds of peoples' time. > >John A. From allain at panix.com Fri May 16 18:37:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: <005701c31bdd$34d80300$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <00bd01c31c03$bfc2cc40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> TeoZ asks: > When does a hobby turn into an obsesion or compulsion? Taken from Christine Reilly, Institute for Research on Pathological Gambling, Harvard Medical School http://www.hms.harvard.edu/doa (As per NPR, abbreviated) Symptoms of addiction o Crave it. Obsessive thinking about the activity. o Continued involvement despite adverse consequences o Increasing levels to get the same satisfaction Relating an experience I had for 24 hours once with painkillers for a broken leg I would add: o Gradual replacing of satisfaction with irritability. Good source material for the subject: the book "Terminal Man". No joke. John A. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri May 16 18:40:00 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> from "Thompson Family" at May 16, 03 06:40:36 pm Message-ID: <200305162338.TAA13499@wordstock.com> And thusly Thompson Family spake: > > False shock and sentimentality went the way of the mullet. Just ignore me if > you don't like me. > Why does everyone have to pick on the mullet?!!! I loved the 80's and I still do today. Cheers, Bryan P.S. And no I don't have a mullet right now. From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri May 16 18:42:01 2003 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (VaxCat) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <003901c31bfc$2b8c0110$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: You're right. I'm man enough to stop something counter-productive and stop being part of the problem. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa > Easily-accessible Internet service unimpeded by IQ tests or Emotional >Maturity Indices reduces classiccmp, once again, to a *new* lowest common >denominator. > > And, to add to the goodness, one or more of you assholes don't even have >the apparent synaptic resources to understand how to trim your numbingly >juvenile 'responses'. > > Probably time for me to bow to reason and just subscribe to cctech - it >irks me that a few shitheads have the obvious right to hijack this rare >resource - were it up to me, there'd be some permanent list subscription >deletions already. > > But it ain't. > > > > O well... > >John From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 16 18:45:00 2003 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305162338.TAA13499@wordstock.com> References: <200305162338.TAA13499@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3EC5779E.3060601@mdrconsult.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > > P.S. And no I don't have a mullet right now. Darn. I wanted pictures! Doc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 16 18:59:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <200305161654.h4GGs3rV024702@eola.ao.net> <008401c31bf3$c275aa80$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> <004a01c31bfc$448ff720$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030516195818.6337f73e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:00 PM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 16 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: >> From: "VaxCat" >> >> > MY APOLOGIES! >> > >> > I did not mean to post my response to the list! I meant it to go >> > privately. It was an honest mistake. I would never post something >> > like that publicly. >> > >> > Of course, I'll stand by my words. >> > But I apologize for the error. >> >> Accepted > >*plonk* > >-Toth > the fun never ends! we haven't heard from wire-head for months and he reappears with a bang! joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 16 19:00:49 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030516193934.6337055a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> yes you can still get it but you have go to a chemical co. It's not readily available the way that alcohol, mineral spirits, etc are. joe At 05:55 PM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 16 May 2003, Joe wrote: >> At 02:27 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >> >> > How many people keep something as nasty as MEK in their house? >> > Generally if your trying to disolve something then pick a solvent in >> > the same family as the ink is made out of. like disolves like is a >> > general rule. >> >> MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for >> an individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > >Are you sure? I have a small glass bottle of it that I've been using to >bond ABS plastic, for which it works very good. The last time (a year >ago?) I looked into buying a larger quantity from a chemical company, it >was still available... > >-Toth From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 16 19:03:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: Joe "Re: Removing duct tape residue." (May 16, 15:28) References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10305170054.ZM26586@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 15:28, Joe wrote: > MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an > individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! I believe it's still commonly used for certain industrial processes. Yes, it does attack plastic -- that's it's principal use :-) Ditto for actone. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 16 19:04:37 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: "TeoZ" "Re: Removing duct tape residue." (May 16, 14:27) References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <004201c31bd8$cae1fe00$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <10305170050.ZM26583@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 14:27, TeoZ wrote: > How many people keep something as nasty as MEK in their house? > Generally if your trying to disolve something then pick a solvent in the > same family as the ink is made out of. like disolves like is a general rule. MEK isn't particularly nasty. Less nasty than acetone, and you'll find that in many houses (in the guise of nail polish remover). Less nasty than some of the things found in various paint thinners. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 16 19:09:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <20030515102338.G64769-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> from "Bill Richman" at May 15, 2003 10:51:23 AM Message-ID: <200305170008.h4H08MLf014499@shell1.aracnet.com> > Bill's Top 10 Reasons to Leave the Classic Computer Hobby > > 10) Landlord has voiced concerns over sagging floors and melting wiring. > > 9) People mistaking your place for the local landfill keep dropping off > old appliances in your yard. > > 8) Electric bill has exceeded the GNP of several 3rd-world countries. > > 7) You haven't seen your kids for several days, but you keep hearing > muffled scratching noises coming from that last set of 9-track drives. > > 6) Not only can you no longer get the car in the garage; now you can't > even get it in the driveway. > > 5) Al Gore hanging around claming to have invented half of your stuff. > > 4) EPA has declared your house a hazardous waste site due to all the PCBs. > > 3) You've become the target of drive-by bulk-erasings. > > 2) Ever since that incident with the card sorter, your dog refuses to > come out from under the bed. > > and the number one reason... > > 1) A 40-year-old man at the Star Wars premier dressed as Yoda heard > about your hobby and told you to "GET A LIFE!" The list is a riot! Unfortunatly #'s 10, 8, and 4 sound a bit to serious, I've actually worried about all three of them. Though #3 & 2 are down right hysterical! :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 16 19:47:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: from "John Allain" at May 16, 2003 07:34:51 PM Message-ID: <200305170045.h4H0jXbc016407@shell1.aracnet.com> > TeoZ asks: > > When does a hobby turn into an obsesion or compulsion? > > Taken from Christine Reilly, Institute for Research on Pathological > Gambling, Harvard Medical School http://www.hms.harvard.edu/doa > (As per NPR, abbreviated) > > Symptoms of addiction > o Crave it. Obsessive thinking about the activity. > o Continued involvement despite adverse consequences > o Increasing levels to get the same satisfaction > > Relating an experience I had for 24 hours once with > painkillers for a broken leg I would add: > > o Gradual replacing of satisfaction with irritability. > > Good source material for the subject: > the book "Terminal Man". No joke. > > John A. The question is, how many people have taken the time to consider how unhealthy the Classic Computer hobby actually is. Personally I have serious admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it. While I've managed to limit the "Classic Computer habit" to basically DEC gear, I still have a massive pile of 8-bit Micro's and other non-DEC Junk. All told, I've got about 1 1/2 10x10 storage units full of computer junk. Overall, I really need to start figuring out how to unload most of it. At times I wonder if the smartest thing to do wouldn't be to simply call in a Scrapper I know. The problem is, I'd really like to recover some of the money that I've sunk into the Hobby. BTW, if anyone in the vicinity of Portland, Oregon is looking for stuff, let me know. I'm to the point where I'd like to get rid of most all of the non-DEC stuff that I've got. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 16 20:09:01 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: from Erik Klein at "May 16, 3 02:30:00 pm" Message-ID: <200305170119.SAA27846@floodgap.com> > > I'm still trying to figure out who the "We" was referring to. :-) > > Fortunately my wife is as big of a packrat as I am. She's got > her "junk" and I've got mine. And people say marrying someone with baggage is a bad idea. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- There is no Dark Side of the Moon, really. Matter of fact, it's all dark. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 16 20:14:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305170045.h4H0jXbc016407@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: We all wish him the best of luck in whatever he attempts, even it is leaving cold turkey. > When does a hobby turn into an obsesion or compulsion? > . . . And don't forget the component of denial. 'course that doesn't apply to me; I can quit collecting any time that I want. From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 16 20:26:00 2003 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <20030516230800.93817.56056.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> Joe: >> >> Any chance of using 48VDC? There's plenty of surplus industrial PCs (and >>PSUs) that run off of that. I've often wondered if you couldn't run a PC >>directly off of 12VDC (with a regulator to drop one line to 5VDC). I saw a lot of these in my usual surplus catalogs but producing 48v from batteries of a sufficient amperage is a bulky proposition. I envision a small cordura camera bag filled with two surplus 12v 7ah lead acid batteries (in parallel) and some switching gear for the scope and the PC. I also looked at some of the mobile MP3 projects but the most suitable solution was $150 and didn't have the right amperage ratings. I don't know...maybe I'm looking for something that really doesn't exist. I really wanted to avoid building my own supply, though. Rich Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri May 16 20:31:00 2003 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Classics in BC Message-ID: <200305162129.56302.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Any sites for classic in Vancouver Lillooet Kamloops or Victoria or en route? I have a road trip coming up soon. From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri May 16 20:37:01 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A9@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> References: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A9@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Message-ID: <1053135388.22747.14.camel@crusader> The following MIGHT be a good place to start: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Ridge/9965/ ZXTAPE 3.0 Its directed towards the zx81, but it could be applicable to your application. Dunno. I've a feeling every computers tape format is different, though. David On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 03:25, Hills, Paul wrote: > I have quite a bit of software on cassette tapes for 1980s home computers. > Does anyone know of a simple method (without having to design and build > myself a dual-tone decoder circuit + write suitable PC software) of getting > this information onto a PC? I guess the home computer emulator pages on the > web must have done this. > > Maybe I could record it as a WAV file then write a program to decode the > WAV? Or would MP3 encoding be capable of compressing and reliable expanding > the audio data (MP3 is of course designed to compress music which these > squeaks and whistles clearly are not, even if they lie within the audio > spectrum!). > > paul From allain at panix.com Fri May 16 20:39:01 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v References: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> Message-ID: <003b01c31c14$c043d360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Here's a pretty damn dumb question. Can 5v regulators just be stacked up to get more than 100mA? One possibility is that the weakest one would go first, then the rest after it's dead. John A. From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri May 16 20:41:00 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> References: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> Message-ID: <200305162138.04101.jcwren@jcwren.com> This looks interesting. The current version is pretty much limited to a 12V input, but they're saying they'll have a 9-18V with ignition sense input in May/June 2003. Suddenly, vehicle-based PCs are looking a little more doable. And at $50, it's not a bad deal. --John On Friday 16 May 2003 21:25 pm, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Joe: > >> Any chance of using 48VDC? There's plenty of surplus industrial PCs > >> (and PSUs) that run off of that. I've often wondered if you couldn't > >> run a PC directly off of 12VDC (with a regulator to drop one line to > >> 5VDC). > > I saw a lot of these in my usual surplus catalogs but producing 48v from > batteries of a sufficient amperage is a bulky proposition. I envision a > small cordura camera bag filled with two surplus 12v 7ah lead acid > batteries (in parallel) and some switching gear for the scope and the PC. > > I also looked at some of the mobile MP3 projects but the most suitable > solution was $150 and didn't have the right amperage ratings. > > I don't know...maybe I'm looking for something that really doesn't exist. > I really wanted to avoid building my own supply, though. > > Rich > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 16 20:45:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <00da01c31bf6$53e865f0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: > I never heard of a BBS. It ranks up there with butter churn parts and > knowledge of how to crank start a car. It is good to know but it is not > something you'd run across - well except here. It is interesting to think > of all the detailed knowledge lost throughout history as it simply had no > use and was not preserved. Well, since you brought it up,... The newest car that I've had that had a crank was a 1958 VW pickup, although the U.S. models stopped in the early 50s. But the parts were around for quite a while (special crank pulley nut), so I added it to others through the 1980s. The special crank pulley nut had deep asymmetrical notches, kinda like the "tamper-proof" screw-heads in public mens' rooms, so that the crank would be pushed back and not be turned by the engine once it started. The crank itself is just a bent rod with a small cross bar near the tip. Start by chocking the wheels, or at least FIRMLY set a brake. Make a scratch mark for the current distributor position (timing). Retard the ignition timing to no more than a few degrees before top dead center. You REALLY don't want it to kick back! That REALLY hurts! A friend of Charles Kettering was killed that way, and that is what led to the development of an electric motor for starting. Bring it up on compression of one cylinder. Take it as fast as you can through top dead center; if it responds at all, try to keep as much momentum as you can past the next cylinder. The natural variation from one cylinder to another may mean that you might have to try starting with several different cylinders. Once it starts, turn the distributor back to where it was; unchock the wheels; and next time, don't let the battery run down that far! Hand cranking is no harder than push starting a car, except that with push starting it is possible to distribute the work load among more people. NEITHER will work with modern systems, such as the '70 VW Type III fool injection or modern emission control computers unless the battery has enough voltage remaining to power the electronics (typically about 10V). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 16 21:34:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516190945.054c5400@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225512.3cefde20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030516190945.054c5400@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Mail List wrote: > At 05:58 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: > > > I never heard of a BBS. It ranks up there with butter churn parts and > > knowledge of how to crank start a car. It is good to know but it is > > not something you'd run across - well except here. It is interesting > > to think of all the detailed knowledge lost throughout history as it > > simply had no use and was not preserved. > > But it almost seems like it was only yesterday. Seems like? Uhm, it probably *was* only yesterday for some of us...or even just a few hours ago ;) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 16 21:42:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:41 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030516193934.6337055a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516193934.6337055a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Joe wrote: > At 05:55 PM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: > > On Fri, 16 May 2003, Joe wrote: > > > > > MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible > > > for an individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > > > > Are you sure? I have a small glass bottle of it that I've been using > > to bond ABS plastic, for which it works very good. The last time (a > > year ago?) I looked into buying a larger quantity from a chemical > > company, it was still available... > > yes you can still get it but you have go to a chemical co. It's not > readily available the way that alcohol, mineral spirits, etc are. Thats what I thought. Strange as it is, the small glass bottle of the stuff I use for ABS I picked up at a local chain-type hobby store. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 16 21:54:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Joe wrote: > At 06:38 PM 5/15/03 -0500, Toth wrote: > > > The textured paint I have with sharpie on it has a very light texture. > > The problem seems to be that the paint is "soft", or some kind of > > scratch resistant paint, and the sharpie was pulled down into tiny > > pores in the paint. I've been wondering if I'd be better off just > > repainting the covers, as they aren't very large. I just don't know > > where I'd get that kind of paint, or how it needs to be cured. > > Check with automotive paint suppliers. They have every color under the > rainbow and now that most of the new cars are being made of plastic they > carry paint that's designed for use on plastic. Paint made for metal > finishes never does work well on plastic. It's not flexible enough and > it usually flakes and peels. You'd probably have to buy a minimum of a > quart of paint so the cost might be prohibitive. You'd also need a GOOD > compressor and spray gun and a place to spray so it's a big investment. The covers that are marked up with sharpie are metal. The paint is kind of soft and gives a little. I've not seen it used much. The covers are for some SCSI drive chassis. I have both a compressor and spray gun, though the compressor is a little too small for larger projects. > The problem is that most computer stuff seems to use a peeble finish and > not a smooth finish. You need to sand the surface in order to get the > paint to stick but if you do you lose the peeble finish. If you don't > sand then the new paint flakes off and in addition the new paint fills a > lot of peeble finish anyway. You might be able to bead blast it to > roughen the surface without losing the finish but now you need more > equipment! I guess you could say these have a pebble finish. The texture is pretty fine and you don't notice it right away. I have a bead blasting cabinet, but the metal underneath the paint is smooth. I guess the texture is only part of the paint. > I see on TV that they now have lasers that can burn off dark spots like > freckles and tatoos without burning the lighter color skin around them. > I wonder if something like that could be used to burn off dark marker > stains without damaging the lighter surrounding area. Yeah I know that > kind of equipment is expensive but I wonder if it would work. If so > there are some of us that could build their own lasers or modify > existing ones. Just an idea. Thats an idea. That type of equipment turns up at local auctions every year or two too. The last time that kind of gear turned up, one guy picked up all 3 laser units for a total of $5.00 simply because no one else wanted to haul them off. They do tend to be kind of bulky. He later told me they worked fine, though one needs a supply of liquid helium or liquid nitrogen to operate. Oh, and they use *lots* of electricity... -Toth From cb at mythtech.net Fri May 16 22:24:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Cassette Media revisited Message-ID: Well... audio tapes don't work as a substitute for a D/CAS cassette. At least not with my TEAC drive. First attempt, drive takes the tape, but starts blinking the access light as soon as the drive is locked, never tries to do anything with it, software says "No Media". After a quick 2nd look at the transport, I see a small finger sensor looking for that notch. 30 seconds later with my pocket knife, my audio tape has the notch. 2nd attempt, drive sees the tape, software reports "Busy" as the drive spins the tape to the end, clacks to the end and tries to spin some more, then gives up, rewinds a bit and stops. Software reports "Hardware Error". My guess is, it is looking for some kind of end of tape marker. I tried both clear leader and leaderless tape, neither worked. I also tried a higher grade tape (Type II, 630 oersteds or whatever that word is). I don't know if the end of tape is a specific magnetic marker like a format, or what. Winding the tape to the end in a tape deck and putting back in the drive causes it to rewind the whole tape until it clacks at the end again. So it is definitly trying to rewind to the start of the tape and is simply never seeing that it is at the end. It is possible that the drive is broken, but since it is seen by Retrospect on the Mac, and gives status updates as it goes, and the transport does its thing... I tend to think the drive is fine and I just can't use an audio tape. So... does anyone know a supplier of these tapes? I haven't been able to turn up anyone that actually sells them anymore. A few people on this list offered to try to locate a spare tape for me for testing... but I'm not going to ask anyone to go thru that effort if I can't get a regular supply of tapes anyway. The drive is a TEAC MT-2ST/N50. The following appear to be compatible tapes: MaynStream 20; Teac CT500 D/CAS; Verbatim ST500; Teac CT-600H; Verbatim ST600; Maxell CS-600HD; MaynStream 60; Teac CT-600N; Maxell CS-600XD; Verbatim ST600XD; MaynStream 150. All in all, it probably isn't worth much more effort. Its only a 150 MB drive anyway. So for normal use, there isn't much I can do with it (at least not when I deal with the cost ratio of Zip disks or CD-R's). -chris From fernande at internet1.net Fri May 16 23:13:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EC5B66C.4050704@internet1.net> Joe wrote: > MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an > individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > > Joe Last I knew, Lowes carried it. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From loedman1 at juno.com Fri May 16 23:26:00 2003 From: loedman1 at juno.com (loedman1@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: <20030516.212244.-130331.6.loedman1@juno.com> Gee I wish someone had informed me that the mullet was out, next you will be telling me that my cuffed corduroys, platform shoes and double-knit shirts are no longer the pinnacle of fashion. Rich >From: "Thompson Family" >False shock and sentimentality went the way of the mullet. Just ignore me if >you don't like me. From donm at cts.com Sat May 17 00:07:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > I never heard of a BBS. It ranks up there with butter churn parts and > > knowledge of how to crank start a car. It is good to know but it is not > > something you'd run across - well except here. It is interesting to think > > of all the detailed knowledge lost throughout history as it simply had no > > use and was not preserved. > > Well, since you brought it up,... > > The newest car that I've had that had a crank was a 1958 VW pickup, > although the U.S. models stopped in the early 50s. But the parts were > around for quite a while (special crank pulley nut), so I added it to > others through the 1980s. The special crank pulley nut had deep > asymmetrical notches, kinda like the "tamper-proof" screw-heads in public > mens' rooms, so that the crank would be pushed back and not be turned > by the engine once it started. The crank itself is just a bent rod with a > small cross bar near the tip. > > Start by chocking the wheels, or at least FIRMLY set a brake. > Make a scratch mark for the current distributor position (timing). > Retard the ignition timing to no more than a few degrees before top > dead center. You REALLY don't want it to kick back! That REALLY hurts! > A friend of Charles Kettering was killed that way, and that is what led > to the development of an electric motor for starting. > Bring it up on compression of one cylinder. > Take it as fast as you can through top dead center; if it responds at all, > try to keep as much momentum as you can past the next cylinder. > The natural variation from one cylinder to another may mean that you might > have to try starting with several different cylinders. > Once it starts, turn the distributor back to where it was; unchock the > wheels; and next time, don't let the battery run down that far! It was sure a lot easier when you could retard the 'spark' with the lever on the steering column, wasn't it? - don > Hand cranking is no harder than push starting a car, except that with push > starting it is possible to distribute the work load among more people. > NEITHER will work with modern systems, such as the '70 VW Type III fool > injection or modern emission control computers unless the battery has > enough voltage remaining to power the electronics (typically about 10V). > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From donm at cts.com Sat May 17 00:20:01 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Cassette Media revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, chris wrote: > Well... audio tapes don't work as a substitute for a D/CAS cassette. At > least not with my TEAC drive. > The drive is a TEAC MT-2ST/N50. The following appear to be compatible > tapes: MaynStream 20; Teac CT500 D/CAS; Verbatim ST500; Teac CT-600H; > Verbatim ST600; Maxell CS-600HD; MaynStream 60; Teac CT-600N; Maxell > CS-600XD; Verbatim ST600XD; MaynStream 150. Chris, you wrote the magic words! I have a box of ten of the Maxell CS-600HD tapes that are unused. Let me know what they are worth to you (plus shipping) and they are probably yours. - don > All in all, it probably isn't worth much more effort. Its only a 150 MB > drive anyway. So for normal use, there isn't much I can do with it (at > least not when I deal with the cost ratio of Zip disks or CD-R's). > > -chris > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat May 17 02:20:01 2003 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c31c44$79bdc6a0$323bcd18@D73KSM11> > >I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to > cost me a ton > >to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it > because of the > >thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. > > > >Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) > > My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that > sh*t with us > when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I > have in my > barn. > Hey, I'm moving too in 2 weeks! Bigger place with a 26 x 15 bonus room that I'm dedicating to computer stuff. Finally, I'll be able to access my stuff. Yay! From dave at naffnet.org.uk Sat May 17 02:44:00 2003 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product Manual Message-ID: <3EC5E7F8.2070009@naffnet.org.uk> I have a copy of the MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product Manual (including service information, schematics etc.) that is available for P&P only. If there are no takers then it goes into the recycling box... Dave. From cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net Sat May 17 04:53:01 2003 From: cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <000101c31c44$79bdc6a0$323bcd18@D73KSM11> References: <000101c31c44$79bdc6a0$323bcd18@D73KSM11> Message-ID: <1053165045.10307.2.camel@www.4mcnabb.net> On Sat, 2003-05-17 at 03:18, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > >I just signed on with a mover yesterday and it's going to > > cost me a ton > > >to move my butt and my family to a new house, much of it > > because of the > > >thousands of pounds of computers and related items I've got stashed. > > > > > >Hell, the reason we're moving is that we're out of space! :) > > > > My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that > > sh*t with us > > when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I > > have in my > > barn. > > > Hey, I'm moving too in 2 weeks! Bigger place with a 26 x 15 bonus room > that I'm dedicating to computer stuff. Finally, I'll be able to access > my stuff. Yay! This is really wierd, since I'm also moving in two weeks. We are leasing a 160 year old farm house on 5 acres. The place has a gigantic attic and a barn so I wont have to make my computer room double as a storage area. -- Christopher L McNabb Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb@4mcnabb.net Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.1356N 80.4272N GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD From rdd at rddavis.org Sat May 17 06:25:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305170045.h4H0jXbc016407@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200305170045.h4H0jXbc016407@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20030517112514.GA6651@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Zane H. Healy, from writings of Fri, May 16, 2003 at 05:45:33PM -0700: > The question is, how many people have taken the time to consider how > unhealthy the Classic Computer hobby actually is. Personally I have serious > admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it. Brilliant! If some of us can actually convince enough others of that, there will be more classic computers for us to acquire! ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at rddavis.org Sat May 17 06:46:00 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <000101c31c44$79bdc6a0$323bcd18@D73KSM11> References: <000101c31c44$79bdc6a0$323bcd18@D73KSM11> Message-ID: <20030517114527.GB6651@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Someone wrote: > My wife just told me last night that "We are not taking that > sh*t with us when we move". She was refering to the piles of computers I > have in my barn. Incorrect response to such a wife: "Yes dear." [wimpily spoken] Correct response to such a wife: "You're right, we're not taking it with us, I'm taking it with me. Either you're coming with me, or you aren't. Make up your mind." [spoken very matter of factly and calmly, then just let any arguments, shouting, screeching, etc. go in one ear and out the other] -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 17 07:05:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030517075935.46f7a738@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:01 PM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: > > >I guess you could say these have a pebble finish. The texture is pretty >fine and you don't notice it right away. I have a bead blasting cabinet, >but the metal underneath the paint is smooth. I guess the texture is only >part of the paint. Correct. They call it splatter paint or something like that. It has lumps in it and you spray it on that way. I guess the size of the lumps control the size of the bumps in the finish. I used to work in a paint and body shop and we used the stuff to re-pain the insides of trunks of 60s and 70s cars that had that finish. The stuff they used left a greyish finish with large spots and streaks of very dark color. You can sandblast or bead plastic the base material (metal or plastic) and then paint over it and get a rough finish but it will have holes and dips in it instead of bumps (pebbles) so it's not the same. > >> I see on TV that they now have lasers that can burn off dark spots like >> freckles and tatoos without burning the lighter color skin around them. >> I wonder if something like that could be used to burn off dark marker >> stains without damaging the lighter surrounding area. Yeah I know that >> kind of equipment is expensive but I wonder if it would work. If so >> there are some of us that could build their own lasers or modify >> existing ones. Just an idea. > >Thats an idea. That type of equipment turns up at local auctions every >year or two too. The last time that kind of gear turned up, one guy picked >up all 3 laser units for a total of $5.00 simply because no one else >wanted to haul them off. They do tend to be kind of bulky. He later told >me they worked fine, though one needs a supply of liquid helium or liquid >nitrogen to operate. Oh, and they use *lots* of electricity... I've never seen any of that stuff close up. What's the liguid mitrogen for? Joe > >-Toth From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 17 07:06:48 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3EC5B66C.4050704@internet1.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:11 AM 5/17/03 -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: >Joe wrote: >> MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an >> individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! >> >> Joe > >Last I knew, Lowes carried it. > Hum. I'll have to check on that. Is it full strength (100%)? You can still get MEK in things like PVC pipe glue, model airplane cement, etc but it's not 100% pure and it has various amounts of platic and other fillers dissolved in it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 17 07:08:21 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <003b01c31c14$c043d360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030517074928.470f754e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:36 PM 5/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >Here's a pretty damn dumb question. > Can 5v regulators just be stacked up to get > more than 100mA? Huh? a standard 7805 is good for 1 amp and there are other 5V regulators that can handle more current than that. And yes they can be ganged together but it's best to put a resistor in series with each one to try and prevent current hogging. Don Lancaster shows this in his TTL Cookbook but I'm sure there are lots of other sources for info too. Joe > One possibility is that the weakest one would > go first, then the rest after it's dead. > >John A. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 17 07:28:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030516185626.030e5120@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 05:50 PM 5/16/03 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >- Ethernet <---> LocalTalk bridge. I use a Shiva FastPath 4, but there I have about a dozen of these, and they are pretty much the "best" in terms of fully supporting things like MacTCP (TCP inside of appletalk packets), but I have never setup and used one for myself, any suggestions, hints or tips on doing it? I do have a bunch of Shiva files I saved prior to Intel swallowing it up, but its really the more info than less problem. From awt at io.com Sat May 17 07:42:01 2003 From: awt at io.com (Wayne Talbot) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing Sharp ie Marker Message-ID: <1053126934.2539.5.camel@gandalf> I have had some luck in the past with hair spray. Hair spray removes the marker then regular cleansers can remove the hair spray. Test it first on something disposable. -- Wayne Talbot From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat May 17 08:09:00 2003 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030516185626.030e5120@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Mike Ford wrote: > At 05:50 PM 5/16/03 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > >- Ethernet <---> LocalTalk bridge. I use a Shiva FastPath 4, but there > > I have about a dozen of these, and they are pretty much the "best" in terms > of fully supporting things like MacTCP (TCP inside of appletalk packets), > but I have never setup and used one for myself, any suggestions, hints or > tips on doing it? > > I do have a bunch of Shiva files I saved prior to Intel swallowing it up, > but its really the more info than less problem. > I basically blundered my way through the setup, so I can't be of much help with a methodical approach. It would be great if someone out there could scan in the docs (which I've never laid eyes on) and post them as a PDF... Steve From fernande at internet1.net Sat May 17 08:21:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EC6370A.6070207@internet1.net> Joe wrote: > Hum. I'll have to check on that. Is it full strength (100%)? You can > still get MEK in things like PVC pipe glue, model airplane cement, etc but > it's not 100% pure and it has various amounts of platic and other fillers > dissolved in it. > > Joe I don't know if it's full strength or not..... what would it be thinned with? I'll look too. I'm curiuos now. I need to go to Lowes any way to buy a dust pan and broom for the basement. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 09:26:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A8@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 2003, Hills, Paul wrote: > Although the storage medium transferred to may have a shorter life, the > information itself may have a longer life. As the previous poster said, he > can store all his old 8-bit stuff in a tiny corner of his hard disk. That > can get stored to CD. Now write-able DVD has arrived, it can be copied to an > even smaller corner of a DVD. When the next, even more dense, medium > arrives, it may be copied to an increasingly smaller corner of that. As long > as this copying process occurs more often than the life-length of each > medium, there's no problem. Keeping a copy of each intervening storage media > gives you your backups too. Great theory, but humans have a proven track record of being notoriously bad at keeping up with their backups. > There is a danger of leaving the information on the original only, as > exemplified by the problems with the BBC's (UK) doomsday project > (http://www.si.umich.edu/CAMILEON/domesday/press.html), which fortunately > were solved. Even though it may be theoretically possible to resurrect the > data, it might be very difficult. That's a bad example. Those folks never thought to look for a thriving vintage computer community that would be able to provide them with the parts they needed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 09:30:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 2003 philip@awale.qc.ca wrote: > On 11-May-2003 JP Hindin wrote: > > On Sun, 11 May 2003, VaxCat wrote: > >> The whole oldest computer on the net thread reminded me of a story > >> a friend told me. > > > >> THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER > > I've seen this before; I wonder about its authenticity - but there's no > > reason to jump to any conclusions... > > This is an urbane legend that I believe to be true. > > Google found this : > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/18265.html > > (this probably isn't a good enough reference to guaranty authenticity, > though) I'm still skeptical. Think of this: what better hack than to fool some newspaper reporter into doing a story on an old high-tech urban legend? I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to the story, but it sounds too dumb to have actually happened like it's told. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 09:43:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <005701c31bdd$34d80300$4f7ca418@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > When does a hobby turn into an obsesion or compulsion? My small collection > is relatively new, and pretty much focussed on game machines (c64,c128, > IIgs, Amiga 500,1200,atari ST, etc) and a few 68k macs, powermacs, and a > bunch of PC's. They dont take up that much space, not like a mainframe > anyway, and run off of 120VAC. When you're driving in the vicinity of your favorite thrift store and you can't defeat the urge to stop in "just in case". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 09:58:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305170045.h4H0jXbc016407@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The question is, how many people have taken the time to consider how > unhealthy the Classic Computer hobby actually is. Personally I have serious > admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it. Me, for one. Through hard experience I've learned that in times when I don't have any money to buy gas, that's the times when I do not dare step foot in a thrift store or go to a hamfest to look for stuff. So I've managed to put it under some control. Also, there comes a time where you either have to give it up, because you know its going to master you the larger it grows, or you master it by making it work for itself. I chose the latter ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 10:08:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <20030516.212244.-130331.6.loedman1@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003 loedman1@juno.com wrote: > Gee I wish someone had informed me that the mullet was out, next you will > be telling me that my cuffed corduroys, platform shoes and double-knit > shirts are no longer the pinnacle of fashion. I am NOT giving up my parachute pants! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat May 17 10:56:01 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 13 May 2003 philip@awale.qc.ca wrote: > > > This is an urbane legend that I believe to be true. > > > > Google found this : > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/18265.html > > > > (this probably isn't a good enough reference to guaranty authenticity, > > though) > > I'm still skeptical. Think of this: what better hack than to fool some > newspaper reporter into doing a story on an old high-tech urban legend? > > I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to the story, but it sounds too dumb > to have actually happened like it's told. I know one place I worked "lost" a Novell server for years, but it turned up in the corner of someone's office when they finally found it. Yes, it was running and being used. The only reason they started looking for it was that they were decommissioning it... -Toth From jrice54 at charter.net Sat May 17 11:22:00 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC662B6.5090008@charter.net> The same thing happenned to me. We do medical billing systems. As we were decommissioning an old coax network, people lost the drive mapping to some document folders. As were had been told that only the three servers in the old server room were in use, we finally had to trace the location by cable segments off the old coax repeaters. We found the old server under a desk in an unused office. It was a Compaq Deskpro 386 running Netware 2.15. Uptime was over 6 years. Funny, the power supply fan was so encrusted with dust that it no longer turned. The supply was too hot to touch, but it was still limping along. More modern equipment would have melted down. It turned out that the old occupant of that office had retired four years before and he had set up the server as an unauthorized project with a booleg copy of the NW 2.15 after the rest of the shop had upgraded to 3.x. Then he was RIFed by early retirement. No one else had even seen the server before or knew it existed. Tothwolf wrote: >I know one place I worked "lost" a Novell server for years, but it turned >up in the corner of someone's office when they finally found it. Yes, it >was running and being used. The only reason they started looking for it >was that they were decommissioning it... > >-Toth > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 11:36:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Tothwolf wrote: > I know one place I worked "lost" a Novell server for years, but it turned > up in the corner of someone's office when they finally found it. Yes, it > was running and being used. The only reason they started looking for it > was that they were decommissioning it... Sure, this is not as uncommon as one might think. But lost behind a new wall? I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid. I mean, people can exhibit amazing levels of stupidity, but it would be incredibly naive to think that someone would take the time to cut out the holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off the wall. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 17 11:53:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Re: Removing duct tape residue." (May 17, 9:20) References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3EC6370A.6070207@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10305171630.ZM27111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 9:20, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I don't know if it's full strength or not..... what would it be thinned > with? I'll look too. I'm curiuos now. I need to go to Lowes any way > to buy a dust pan and broom for the basement. I wouldn't expect it would be "thinned" with anything. For use as a plastic cement, it's usually thickened by dissolving ABS or PVC in it. Pure MEK is a very light colourless liquid. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 17 11:54:43 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product Manual In-Reply-To: Dave Woodman "MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product Manual" (May 17, 8:42) References: <3EC5E7F8.2070009@naffnet.org.uk> Message-ID: <10305171620.ZM27106@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 8:42, Dave Woodman wrote: > I have a copy of the MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product > Manual (including service information, schematics etc.) that is > available for P&P only. > > If there are no takers then it goes into the recycling box... I'll take it "for the shelf" if no-one else wants it for a drive they've got. You can never have to many service manuals :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave at naffnet.org.uk Sat May 17 11:58:00 2003 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product Manual References: <3EC5E7F8.2070009@naffnet.org.uk> Message-ID: <3EC669BA.7030802@naffnet.org.uk> Hmmm, seems as though a lot of people want this:- it should therefore be considered taken. Dave. Dave Woodman wrote: > I have a copy of the MPI 91/92, 101/102 Flexible Disk Drive Product > Manual (including service information, schematics etc.) that is > available for P&P only. > > If there are no takers then it goes into the recycling box... > > Dave. From jrice54 at charter.net Sat May 17 12:02:00 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC66C27.8080103@charter.net> In a large organization I can see how it could happen. Walls are thrown up by a in-house maintance crew or an outside contractor who employes relatively unskilled labor who are not paid to think.... just get the job done as quickly as possible. When I was an apprentice electrician, if any apprentice raised a question, relevant or not, you were told to shut up and follow orders even if you knew it was a scewup. Half the drywall people I encounter don't even speak english much less have a clue about what cable goes where or what it's function is. James Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 17 May 2003, Tothwolf wrote: > > > >>I know one place I worked "lost" a Novell server for years, but it turned >>up in the corner of someone's office when they finally found it. Yes, it >>was running and being used. The only reason they started looking for it >>was that they were decommissioning it... >> >> > >Sure, this is not as uncommon as one might think. > >But lost behind a new wall? I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid. I >mean, people can exhibit amazing levels of stupidity, but it would be >incredibly naive to think that someone would take the time to cut out the >holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off >the wall. > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 17 12:12:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing Sharp ie Marker In-Reply-To: <1053126934.2539.5.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030517131130.296f3014@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That's interesting! I've never heard of using hair spray to clean anything. I would have thought that it's leave a gooy sticky mess. That's what it does in my spud gun. what kind of hair spray do you use? Joe At 07:41 AM 5/17/03 -0400, you wrote: >I have had some luck in the past with hair spray. Hair spray removes the >marker then regular cleansers can remove the hair spray. Test it first >on something disposable. >-- >Wayne Talbot From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat May 17 12:37:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: A GENIAC selling for $800 Message-ID: <015001c31c9a$b5732770$8109dd40@oemcomputer> I guess I will never get one now at these prices. :-( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729184339&category=1247 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 17 12:51:00 2003 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: RD54 drives & other shtuff up for bid Message-ID: <200305171049410578.D6B3594F@192.168.42.129> I've put a pair of RD54's up for bid on E-pay. Last time I looked, they were hovering around $20.00 for the pair. Auction ends next Friday. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=167&item=2730509191 Also, for those of you who may have a Data I/O 2900 series programmer, I came across some software kits for it. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1504&item=2531783464 Thanks for putting up with my occasional shameless plug. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat May 17 12:53:01 2003 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Software wanted for SGI Irix Message-ID: <3EC67878.F71E004A@adelphia.net> I know this might be a long shot.. but anyways... Does anyone have any idea where I might buy, borrow, beg , etc ... Adobe Premiere ver 4.2 (was there any other version?) for the Silicon Graphics IRIX platform??? For that matter.. anyone even touch this or use it??? I have it for the PC, and the Mac on which I do video production, but recently have been bitten by the SGI bug would like to run same on my Irix system. Thanks for any info/leads... David Barnes -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat May 17 13:35:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: IBM finds at Auction Message-ID: <018e01c31ca2$ee0ee8a0$8109dd40@oemcomputer> The other day I picked up the following items: IBM Powerstation 560 type 7013 IBM Powerserver 590 type 7013 IBM Powerstation 560F type 7013 None of them have been tested yet. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 17 14:16:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report References: Message-ID: <3EC68956.1020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > That's a bad example. Those folks never thought to look for a thriving > vintage computer community that would be able to provide them with the > parts they needed. So where is such a beast? Hopefully in walking distance. :) From donm at cts.com Sat May 17 14:20:01 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Removing Sharp ie Marker In-Reply-To: <1053126934.2539.5.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: On 17 May 2003, Wayne Talbot wrote: > I have had some luck in the past with hair spray. Hair spray removes the > marker then regular cleansers can remove the hair spray. Test it first > on something disposable. > -- > Wayne Talbot > That used to be the standard approach to removing ballpoint pen markings from artificial leather furniture. - don From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 14:50:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: <3EC68956.1020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, ben franchuk wrote: > > That's a bad example. Those folks never thought to look for a thriving > > vintage computer community that would be able to provide them with the > > parts they needed. > > So where is such a beast? Hopefully in walking distance. :) This is it. Just about anything that is vintage computer can be found here on this mailing list. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 17 14:54:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: A GENIAC selling for $800 In-Reply-To: <015001c31c9a$b5732770$8109dd40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030517155400.55c7c718@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Cripes! and the auction isn't even over yet! Why doesn't somebody reproduce these? There's not much to them. Joe At 12:35 PM 5/17/03 -0500, you wrote: >I guess I will never get one now at these prices. :-( >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729184339&category=1247 From allain at panix.com Sat May 17 15:01:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers References: Message-ID: <006a01c31cae$bf14bb40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > But lost behind a new wall? > I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid. While I think James is right, its been occuring to me that there is another _possible_ explanation. What if you wanted to bug a network ? Using out of place technology might stand out. An old lost server makes for a better cover story. Possible in that it's not probable, however. John A. also hooked on "The Agency" New this fall: something else. :-( From kth at srv.net Sat May 17 15:24:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v References: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> <003b01c31c14$c043d360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3EC6A345.8060607@srv.net> John Allain wrote: >Here's a pretty damn dumb question. > Can 5v regulators just be stacked up to get > more than 100mA? > One possibility is that the weakest one would > go first, then the rest after it's dead. > > Much better to use one of the circuits that come with most data sheets that show how to increase power output using additional components (power transistors). From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 15:54:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: A GENIAC selling for $800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030517155400.55c7c718@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Joe wrote: > Cripes! and the auction isn't even over yet! Why doesn't somebody > reproduce these? There's not much to them. Yes, some fiber board, brads, wire, and lamps. But they wouldn't sell for $800 ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 17 16:25:01 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030517142938.0262b1f0@mail.zipcon.net> At 09:31 AM 5/17/03 -0700, you wrote: >But lost behind a new wall? I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid. I >mean, people can exhibit amazing levels of stupidity, but it would be >incredibly naive to think that someone would take the time to cut out the >holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off >the wall. Behind a wall is entirely possible. we had a contractor come in at my former job, and put up a new wall, they were supposed to put a door in another wall (we were partitioning off part of our datacenter.) they put the wall up allright, but didn't put the door into the other wall first, so come monday morning we went to get at the 60 machines in that part of the datacenter.... and we couldn't... From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 17 16:50:01 2003 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: from "vance@neurotica.com" at May 17, 2003 08:25:27 AM Message-ID: <20030517214822.759CB7F83@dittman.net> > > > > Wonder if Storageworks ever offered an SDI/RA* series converter? > > > > > > Not that I've ever heard of. I would guess that most machines with an SDI > > > interface would have no trouble being equipped with a CI controller for > > > connection to an HSJ. > > > > The HSC controllers had an SDI interface available. > > But only to disk-side, not to host-side, right? That would make it quite > incompatible with the SW stuff. I misread the question completely. Nevermind. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From fernande at internet1.net Sat May 17 17:12:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC6B37F.6040805@internet1.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > But lost behind a new wall? I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid. I > mean, people can exhibit amazing levels of stupidity, but it would be > incredibly naive to think that someone would take the time to cut out the > holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off > the wall. > Cut holes? Probably not..... the server was probably nudged over behind a wall under construction.....the wires probably would have been mudded over at a corner. Someone may have even done it to be "funny". Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 17 17:49:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v References: <000d01c31c13$3ad30490$1501a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> <003b01c31c14$c043d360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <3EC6A345.8060607@srv.net> Message-ID: <3EC6BB5A.5060704@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > Much better to use one of the circuits that come with most > data sheets that show how to increase power output using > additional components (power transistors). A switching regulator is better for 12 volts to 5 or less volts. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 17 18:05:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This is it. > Just about anything that is vintage computer can be found here on this > mailing list. But even here, Morrow's book ("Quotations from Chairman Morrow") or a xerox, is impossible to find, even though it was a freebie at Comdex 84. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 17 18:28:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:42 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 16, 3 06:43:48 pm Message-ID: > The newest car that I've had that had a crank was a 1958 VW pickup, > although the U.S. models stopped in the early 50s. But the parts were I am pretty sure that UK Land Rovers had the starting handle at least until the late 1970s... The series 3 workshop manual shows the special dog bolt anyway. The starting handle makes some maintenance jobs (setting the valve clearances and the static ignition timing, for example) a lot easier too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 17 18:30:02 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305170008.h4H08MLf014499@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at May 16, 3 05:08:21 pm Message-ID: > > 4) EPA has declared your house a hazardous waste site due to all the PCBs. Is this a deliberate double-meaning of 'PCB' (PolyChlorinated Biphenyls .vs. Printed Circuit Boards)? THe former are what the EPA moans about (and are not that common in classic computers [1]) the latter are not particulalry hazardous... [1] Although I suspect some mains-frequency EHT transformers and PSU cans > > 1) A 40-year-old man at the Star Wars premier dressed as Yoda heard > > about your hobby and told you to "GET A LIFE!" What's a 'life'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 17 18:32:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <003b01c31c14$c043d360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 16, 3 09:36:33 pm Message-ID: > Here's a pretty damn dumb question. > Can 5v regulators just be stacked up to get > more than 100mA? It's not generally a good idea to run regulators in parallel to increase the current rating, unless they're designed for this. If they are, then the data sheet will indicate this (and will probably give an example circuit). However, (a) 3-terminal 5V 5A regualtors exist and (b) the data sheet of many 3 terminal regulators shows how to increase the current capability using external transistors. That siad, remember that linear regulators are very inefficient (power equal to the load current mulitiplied by the different between the input and output voltages goes out as heat), and that you might be better considering a swtiching regulator for such currents. -tony From allain at panix.com Sat May 17 19:47:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v References: Message-ID: <007701c31cd6$aad87f40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> +AD4- the data sheet of many 3 terminal +AD4- regulators shows how... FWIW all the 7085's (and 7905's, whatever they are) that I get came w/o datasheets. Guess I picked them up too cheap. John A. From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat May 17 19:57:01 2003 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518105248.02889c70@127.0.0.1> OK, a real true story (yeah, right :-). In my last job I was responsible for the up time of both systems and networks. On day, a significant proportion of the University network went down (the network was segmented into Western, Eastern and Central) and it was the Western side that went AWOL. As the sciences were on this segment it was noticed rather quickly. Following the tunnels we eventually came to where the Western hub was supposed to be, to discover the wall (and hub) were missing. Apparently a new lift was being installed in the Library and the wall was in the way - I guess the builders didn't notice the large box with the flashing lights and cables attached to the wall.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jim at jkearney.com Sat May 17 20:09:00 2003 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report References: Message-ID: <03c501c31cd9$f69e8250$0f01090a@xpace.net> > But even here, Morrow's book ("Quotations from Chairman Morrow") or a > xerox, is impossible to find, even though it was a freebie at Comdex 84. I found this in a Michael Swaine column: "And does anyone remember this one, published, I think, as a promotional novelty? Quotations from Chairman Morrow, by George Morrow, (Morrow Design Press, 1984). I still have it here on my shelf, all 60 tiny pages of it. George Morrow was one of the more entertaining computer company presidents of the early days, and this take-off on Chairman Mao's Little Red Book has some genuinely insightful bits." Does anyone know him well enough to get a scan of it? I met him once, but had to make a crack about his "cousin Corbett's" German that appeared to piss him off... From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat May 17 20:31:00 2003 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: New additions Message-ID: <11a.2301d2ab.2bf83c19@aol.com> Found a few things today which is surprising these days. Got a RS6000 model 250. It had the key in the switch which I understand is a good thing. Is this computer worth keeping? Got a CD labeled upgrading and repairing PCs 8th edition. Also has 6 and 4th editions on it as well as a mac upgrade section. Looks to be all .pdf files. found 3 full length ISA cards called EVERGREEN SYSTEMS CAPCARD 9500. Looks like a computer on one board with a Pentium overdrive in a socket 3. Any info on this? From loedman1 at juno.com Sat May 17 21:30:01 2003 From: loedman1 at juno.com (loedman1@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: <20030517.192630.-102197.1.loedman1@juno.com> "R. D. Davis" observed, >Incorrect response to such a wife: "Yes dear." [wimpily spoken] >Correct response to such a wife: "You're right, we're not taking it >with us, I'm taking it with me. Either you're coming with me, or you >aren't. Make up your mind." [spoken very matter of factly and calmly, >then just let any arguments, shouting, screeching, etc. go in one ear >and out the other] My first wife called this bluff and left, leaving me with the son and all the bills. She filed property settlement papers that placed the value of my collection at over $10,000, including my Kaypro 10 at $2,500, a PS2 at $1,500 and a 9 pin Epson at $160. The current wife is an electrician with a case of "Pack rat syndrome" equal to mine. The only classic related disagreements we have are over whose turn it is to use the ancient ones and how nice it would be to get 1/2 of the spare room for her stuff, I tell her that she can have the bottom 1/2. Rich From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 22:26:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Disappearing Servers In-Reply-To: <3EC6B37F.6040805@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > But lost behind a new wall? I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid. I > > mean, people can exhibit amazing levels of stupidity, but it would be > > incredibly naive to think that someone would take the time to cut out the > > holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off > > the wall. > > Cut holes? Probably not..... the server was probably nudged over behind > a wall under construction.....the wires probably would have been mudded > over at a corner. Someone may have even done it to be "funny". I should've guessed that it would be easily possible for new levels of human stupidity to be reached. I retract my incredulity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 22:29:22 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This is it. > > Just about anything that is vintage computer can be found here on this > > mailing list. > > But even here, Morrow's book ("Quotations from Chairman Morrow") or a > xerox, is impossible to find, even though it was a freebie at Comdex 84. Might it have been published in the show guide for that year, or the next? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 22:31:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 4) EPA has declared your house a hazardous waste site due to all the PCBs. > > Is this a deliberate double-meaning of 'PCB' (PolyChlorinated Biphenyls > .vs. Printed Circuit Boards)? THe former are what the EPA moans about > (and are not that common in classic computers [1]) the latter are not > particulalry hazardous... But they are classed as "hazardous waste" in California, and a growing number of other states. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 17 22:32:35 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <20030517.192630.-102197.1.loedman1@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003 loedman1@juno.com wrote: > My first wife called this bluff and left, leaving me with the son and all > the bills. She filed property settlement papers that placed the value of > my collection at over $10,000, including my Kaypro 10 at $2,500, a PS2 at > $1,500 and a 9 pin Epson at $160. The current wife is an electrician Don't you know you're only supposed to brag about what your collection is worth to other geeks? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jrice54 at charter.net Sat May 17 23:12:00 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <20030517.192630.-102197.1.loedman1@juno.com> References: <20030517.192630.-102197.1.loedman1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3EC708F5.9010102@charter.net> My first wife always bitched about my "junk" too. She tried the same thing when we split, but she had no clue about what I really had at the time. She kept two old 486's, my DVI box for the Tandy 1000 and all of my TI99 stuff and thought she had the "crown jewels". My current wife has her own thing going on. She sell's party packs on ebay so we have 12 pallets of kids party supplies in the fourth bedroom. She can't bitch about my collection. at least it's all either in the garage or in one room. loedman1@juno.com wrote: > > > >My first wife called this bluff and left, leaving me with the son and all >the bills. She filed property settlement papers that placed the value of >my collection at over $10,000, including my Kaypro 10 at $2,500, a PS2 at >$1,500 and a 9 pin Epson at $160. The current wife is an electrician >with a case of "Pack rat syndrome" equal to mine. The only classic >related disagreements we have are over whose turn it is to use the >ancient ones and how nice it would be to get 1/2 of the spare room for >her stuff, I tell her that she can have the bottom 1/2. > > >Rich > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 18 02:30:01 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of vance@neurotica.com > Sent: 12 May 2003 07:08 > To: Fred deBros > Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 > > It won't run NetBSD. It uses a terminal and runs software specific to the > infoserver. It can act as a storage server, serving disk to VMS machines, > and also as a MOP boot server for VAX, PMAX, and Alpha machines. This I can confirm having just tried to boot VMS 7.3 and finding it's not very happy with that arrangement at all and just locks up :) VAX ROMs will be required I think. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 18 02:32:39 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030511231605.00ad2580@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: That's not what I'm talking about. This machine is running statistics for badgereaders. I believe PowerParallel operations ended in the northeast when they closed the Kingston plant. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 11 May 2003, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Yes, oddly enough, it at one point was sitting in the power parallel dept > running calculations for various things while the deep blue was being > built. I remember my father's manager complaining about IBM insisting that > their subcontractor department had to use it and were not allowed to > replace it. The just put in for a replacement of a "failed server" that sat > there running fine and IBM plopped in another $150k server next to it > without realizing it. Though, the S/360/30 was still used. Nowadays, from > what I last heard from a guy at IBM Poughkeepsie, NY, the S/360/30 in > question is being used to process and develop information on some of IBM's > older but still used machines (such as software/firmware development and > revisions, etc.). I've also heard htat a similar unit was being used by KLA > Temcor (sp?) in robotics development and control. They seem to like coming > to my company's shop and picking up serial and SCSI cabling for the robotic > units to interface them with the controlling machines while they are being > developed. Cheaper than continuously banging out proto-boards every time > you'd like to make a change to the function or design or when you need to > make a revision. > -John > > At 12:50 AM 5/11/2003, you wrote: > >On Sat, 10 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > > > The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military > > > server somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their > > > equipment out every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other > > > branches only upgrade after every user who knows how to run the system > > > is dead/retired. Probably some computer setup for the social security > > > database, or liscense plate server or other mundane task. > > > > > > Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant > > > controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the > > > C64. > > > > > > What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? > > > Or is this just personal computers? > > > >IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation. I > >think there's also an S/360/30 doing something. > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- From c.morris at townsqr.com Sun May 18 02:34:14 2003 From: c.morris at townsqr.com (Dr. Charles E. Morris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: RTG Message-ID: <003101c31bc6$60c23240$0801a8c0@DrOccMed> I'll take a stab... I believe it stands for: radiothermal generator (i.e. a big load of strontium-90, or sometimes a plutonium isotope for longer life, in an insulated and shielded container with a large number of thermocouples). Reliable electrical power as long as the decay heat continues... -Charles From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun May 18 02:39:43 2003 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: ST Falcon Goes high on eBay In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089A7@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> from "Hills, Paul" at May 13, 2003 08:08:08 AM Message-ID: <200305180713.h4I7DYHK030929@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> "Hills, Paul" says: > > >It just goes to show that technically good products never sell themselves. >The Atari Falcon was a dual-processor (MC68030 + MC56001) GUI-based machine >which had available a pre-emptive multitasking operating system (MiNT), >built in SCSI port & MIDI, 50kHz-sampling stereo 16 bit ADC/DACs, at a time >when PCs were twice the price with no sound card, no SCSI, and had just got >Windows 3.1...The Falcon flopped! > >paul > Not all the Falcons were shipped with MultiTos (which was the OS you mean, it was a derivitive of MiNT). There were three differen't OS's shipped. Likewise, all the OS's (including MultiTos) were extensions to the TOS already in the rom (4.04) which was single tasking, and essentially the same as the previous TOS's. The Falcon has the privilege of being the only Atari computer without it's intended OS in ROM because of the shipping worries. There were other problems such as the 68030 only being 16 Mhz, and the fact they used a 16 bit data bus. The system ram also used proprietary ram cards (expensive). The Atari version of GEM itself had not evolved much since they first licensed the code from DR, and they basicly just improved it with improving the presentation a bit (colored icons and better windowing effects). The built in hard disk controller was an IDE controller. What caused the Falcon to not do well was the fact that the product was to little to late. Besides adversely affecting the marketing, Atari Corp. was not known for it's marketing prowess in the first place. In the Falcon, Atari Corp. was giving people what they had been screaming for since the first 520/1040ST series. That includes the multi-tasking, which people had been complaining about for years that Amiga had and Atari should have as well. Had the Falcon (or something compareable) been released back around '87 when it should have (or some how been available as some kind of upgrade back then), the market for Atari might have looked very different by the early 90's. As it is in that period you had the 520ST, 1040STF, 520STF, 520 and 1040 STFM, 520 and 1040 STE's, Mega ST, Mega ST 2, Mega ST 4, Megas STE, TT, and TT/X (leaving out the STACY laptop and all the pc compatibles) all released prior to the Falcon in that 6-7 year period. Much of that sending a message to consumers of "buy a whole new computer to upgrade". Likewise, Atari had a genuine desire to invest little in actual advertising, assuming that low prices and word of mouth from the press would be enough. By the time the early 90's rolled around, Atari and Amiga (in the US) had been downgraded to "alternative computers" in the market and survived by moving towards niche markets (Atari relying more heavily on the "musician market" it had been a part of because of the built in midi ports, and Amiga moving towards the Video Toaster/video effects production market for major support here). By the time the Falcon came out, about the only places you could come by Atari's here was directly from Atari Corp. or in music stores (and most of what I saw there were STE's or older). The Falcon was canned in a little under a year, and Atari Corp. exited the computer industry and focused on it's upcoming Jaguar console. Again, I understand that the Atari computer market in Europe was different where Atari and Amiga enjoyed much larger and longer shares of the market. (Which can also easily be seen by the ammount of TT's, ST's, and Falcons constantly up for auction on the European Ebay sites). Marty From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 18 02:41:36 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030511231605.00ad2580@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: I was wrong. All SP operations except for final testing and QA ended in the northeast when Kingston closed. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 11 May 2003, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Yes, oddly enough, it at one point was sitting in the power parallel dept > running calculations for various things while the deep blue was being > built. I remember my father's manager complaining about IBM insisting that > their subcontractor department had to use it and were not allowed to > replace it. The just put in for a replacement of a "failed server" that sat > there running fine and IBM plopped in another $150k server next to it > without realizing it. Though, the S/360/30 was still used. Nowadays, from > what I last heard from a guy at IBM Poughkeepsie, NY, the S/360/30 in > question is being used to process and develop information on some of IBM's > older but still used machines (such as software/firmware development and > revisions, etc.). I've also heard htat a similar unit was being used by KLA > Temcor (sp?) in robotics development and control. They seem to like coming > to my company's shop and picking up serial and SCSI cabling for the robotic > units to interface them with the controlling machines while they are being > developed. Cheaper than continuously banging out proto-boards every time > you'd like to make a change to the function or design or when you need to > make a revision. > -John > > At 12:50 AM 5/11/2003, you wrote: > >On Sat, 10 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > > > The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military > > > server somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their > > > equipment out every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other > > > branches only upgrade after every user who knows how to run the system > > > is dead/retired. Probably some computer setup for the social security > > > database, or liscense plate server or other mundane task. > > > > > > Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant > > > controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the > > > C64. > > > > > > What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? > > > Or is this just personal computers? > > > >IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation. I > >think there's also an S/360/30 doing something. > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 18 02:43:18 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Steven N. Hirsch > Sent: 16 May 2003 22:50 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC > > If you have the hardware and the patience to get it all working together, > I suggest AppleTalk networking. I have a IIgs and //e networked off a > Linux box (running Netatalk). Works very well for mass > file-copying, it's > fast and the file dates are preserved properly. > > You'll need (at a minimum): > > - Ethernet <---> LocalTalk bridge. I use a Shiva FastPath 4, but there > are dozens of models which are reported to work. Gator Box is one I've > heard a lot about. > > - Apple //e + Apple Workstation card > > and/or > > - Apple IIgs (Rom 3 preferable) > > Server can be a Mac, in which case the necessary protocols are (or should > be) there already. For Linux, you need appletalk support in the kernel > and the very latest version of netatalk. > > For configuration info, read the docs. Then, read the docs. Finally, > read the code . Meep! I can do all of that apart from the LocalTalk bridge and the Workstation card, though such a beast may exist in my Big Box Of Apple Cards That Are Hitherto Undocumented. Hmm. At least I know where THAT is.....been having much difficulty in finding stuff of late! cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 18 02:44:53 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: MINC-11 In-Reply-To: <10305120753.ZM22096@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Peter Turnbull > Sent: 12 May 2003 07:53 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: MINC-11 > > > > If anyone in the UK wants a MINC-11, I know where there is one, > > > I haven't any more room either.....whereabouts in Scotland is it? > > Edinburgh. Yeah, I got an earlier post about it.....so near and yet so far :( cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 18 02:47:02 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: RAMS In-Reply-To: <001901c31a33$9dccba00$4a2201ca@ap.unitech.ac.pg> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Joshua Beraro > Sent: 14 May 2003 17:09 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RAMS > > > What Companies in Australia sell 2114 RAMs? Can anyone out there help? I don't know about Oz, but BGMicro in the US sell compatible chips that I've used to resurrect a few of my machines - www.bgmicro.com. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From paul at grumpy.co.uk Sun May 18 02:48:36 2003 From: paul at grumpy.co.uk (Paul Booth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Sage-II Message-ID: Hi guys, Anyone got one of these beasties? I picked it up last year or the year before, in one of those daft runaway auctions, obviously ending up paying way more than it was worth. Unfortunately there was no OS with it, so it's currently a small, oblong shaped doorstop. Can anyone help me? Cheers, Paul. From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 18 02:50:09 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: StorageWorks question In-Reply-To: <20030516163501.351A57F83@dittman.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Wonder if Storageworks ever offered an SDI/RA* series converter? > > > > Not that I've ever heard of. I would guess that most machines with an SDI > > interface would have no trouble being equipped with a CI controller for > > connection to an HSJ. > > The HSC controllers had an SDI interface available. But only to disk-side, not to host-side, right? That would make it quite incompatible with the SW stuff. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 18 02:51:48 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: <00b101c31bf4$23caa880$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: They were still very much popular as of about 1990. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 16 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > I'd have to have been alive then. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Pope" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:47 PM > Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > > > > And thusly Thompson Family spake: > > > > > > No I am not kidding.. > > > > > > > ACK! Excuse me for asking, but have you ever used a computer in the > 80's?! > > (or earlier...) > > > > BBS = Bulletin Board System. > > > > Computer. Modem. Call other computer with modem. Connect. ANSI. > > X-modem. Bliss. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gene Buckle" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > > > > > > > > > > > What is a BBS? > > > > > > > > You're kidding, right? > > > > > > > > g. From vance at neurotica.com Sun May 18 02:53:34 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: IBM finds at Auction In-Reply-To: <018e01c31ca2$ee0ee8a0$8109dd40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: The 590 is a really *really* nice machine. Good find! Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 17 May 2003, Keys wrote: > The other day I picked up the following items: > > IBM Powerstation 560 type 7013 > > IBM Powerserver 590 type 7013 > > IBM Powerstation 560F type 7013 > > None of them have been tested yet. From postmaster at orison.dsserv.com Sun May 18 02:55:07 2003 From: postmaster at orison.dsserv.com (Clay M. Denton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Who here has a Planar ELT-320? Message-ID: <3EC6D92C.8050203@orison.dsserv.com> Don't know if you have an interest, but on eBay I have one with a keyboard: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3025232873&category=11218&rd=1 Clay From jmd5 at earthlink.net Sun May 18 02:56:41 2003 From: jmd5 at earthlink.net (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: New additions References: <11a.2301d2ab.2bf83c19@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c31ce0$0c07ddc0$6500a8c0@charterpipeline.net> > found 3 full length ISA cards called EVERGREEN SYSTEMS CAPCARD 9500. Looks > like a computer on one board with a Pentium overdrive in a socket 3. Any info > on this? try www.evertech.com. i believe this is original manufacturer. jeff From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun May 18 07:10:01 2003 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 May 2003 00:00:58 BST." Message-ID: <200305180824.JAA04607@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > The newest car that I've had that had a crank was a 1958 VW pickup, > > although the U.S. models stopped in the early 50s. But the parts were > > I am pretty sure that UK Land Rovers had the starting handle at least > until the late 1970s... The series 3 workshop manual shows the special > dog bolt anyway. As did Hillman Imp vans, the relevant parts were esily fitted to the cars. ISTR 2CVs having them too... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From at258 at osfn.org Sun May 18 08:28:00 2003 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <3EC708F5.9010102@charter.net> Message-ID: I was going over some old cables, and found a strange card in them. It is marked C.A.V.I. interface and has a sticker that reads Cavri Systems. There is a 1980 date etched on the board, and under the sticker it looks like it says BCD Associates. There are seven chips on board, 2 DM7416N's a DM74LS14N, 2 Magnecraft W107DIP-5's, a Magnecraft W118DIP-5, and a rockwell 6520-11. There are 6 outputs: Monitor V, Monitor A, Audio Ch1 and 2, Player V and Computer V, and a nasty HRS rectangular locking plug. I suspect it might be for an Apple II, but everything else was Wang or System36, so it could be anything. Does anyone recognise this? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From brian.roth at fnfg.com Sun May 18 09:02:00 2003 From: brian.roth at fnfg.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: Ditto, I'll be moving into my new house on 30 acres in three weeks. Not only do I get the whole basement, I'm putting up a large building later this fall. I have been married for 23 years and my wife has put up with this stuff for probably half of it. She thinks I'm a little looney collecting this stuff but she finds humor in all of it. She really has no interest in technology but she does find the historical significance interesting at times. She is a total American history buff. Too much of anything will burn you out. That's when you put it away for a while and do something else. I do know one thing for sure. Jeffrey will regret getting rid of this stuff some day. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. >This is really weird, since I'm also moving in two weeks. We are >leasing a 160 year old farm house on 5 acres. The place has a gigantic >attic and a barn so I wont have to make my computer room double as a >storage area. Brian Roth Network Administrator A+ N+ CNA CCNA Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com ***************************************************************************** ********************* The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ***************************************************************************** ********************* BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:roth, brian TEL;WORK:2186 ORG:;Network Services TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com N:roth;brian X-GWUSERID:1372 END:VCARD From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 18 09:17:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC Message-ID: >Meep! I can do all of that apart from the LocalTalk bridge and the >Workstation card, The localtalk bridge isn't needed if you are going to a mac that supports Localtalk directly Basically, anything after the 128 and before the iMac. The 128 doesn't have built in localtalk support IIRC, and the iMac and later don't have serial ports to the bridge is needed to connect to their Ethernet ports for Ethertalk. If you don't have a workstation card for the II, it will probably be cheaper/easier to get a Rom 3 IIgs and use the built in localtalk on that. -chris From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun May 18 09:19:01 2003 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: MEK In-Reply-To: <20030518072202.8971.36911.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20030518072202.8971.36911.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003 02:22:02 -0500, you wrote: >MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an >individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > > Joe I bought a gallon can of it at Home Depot last fall. They also sell acetone, muriatic acid, and plenty of other "nasty" chemicals. -Charles From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 18 09:26:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: Message-ID: <001201c31d48$43a76300$0400fea9@game> Having multiple hobbies helps, as long as they are not all expensive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian roth" To: Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: RE: Leaving the hobby > Ditto, > > I'll be moving into my new house on 30 acres in three weeks. Not only do I > get the whole basement, I'm putting up a large building later this fall. I > have been married for 23 years and my wife has put up with this stuff for > probably half of it. She thinks I'm a little looney collecting this stuff but > she finds humor in all of it. She really has no interest in technology but she > does find the historical significance interesting at times. She is a total > American history buff. Too much of anything will burn you out. That's when you > put it away for a while and do something else. I do know one thing for sure. > Jeffrey will regret getting rid of this stuff some day. Absence makes the > heart grow fonder. > > > >This is really weird, since I'm also moving in two weeks. We are > >leasing a 160 year old farm house on 5 acres. The place has a gigantic > >attic and a barn so I wont have to make my computer room double as a > >storage area. > > > > > Brian Roth > Network Administrator > A+ N+ CNA CCNA > Network Services > First Niagara Bank > (716) 625-7500 X2186 > Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com > > > > **************************************************************************** * > ********************* > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. > It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. > If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or > the > sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make > copies. > > ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** > **************************************************************************** * > ********************* > BEGIN:VCARD > VERSION:2.1 > X-GWTYPE:USER > FN:roth, brian > TEL;WORK:2186 > ORG:;Network Services > TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 > EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com > N:roth;brian > X-GWUSERID:1372 > END:VCARD From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 18 10:01:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <007701c31cd6$aad87f40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030518080300.51df0c12@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:44 PM 5/17/03 -0400, you wrote: >+AD4- the data sheet of many 3 terminal >+AD4- regulators shows how... > >FWIW all the 7085's (and 7905's, whatever they >are) The 7905s are minus 5 V regulators. It uses - voltage input (say -12VDC) on the first pin, return for both the input V and output V on the second pin and outputs a regulated minus 5VDC output on the third pin. IF your power input is floating (no common ground) you can use a 7805 (+5 VDC) rgulator to do the same thing. Connect -Vin to pin 2, +Vin to pin 1, +Vout to pin 3 and -Vin to pin 2. The important thing to remember with this circuit is that the input and out sides do not have a common ground. That's not a problenm in some applications but it is in others. that I get came w/o datasheets. >Guess I picked them up too cheap. You hardly need a data sheet for a 78xx or 79xx. They're extremely easy to use. Once you'd used them once you should need to look a a data sheet again. Joe > >John A. From allain at panix.com Sun May 18 10:12:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Sage-II References: Message-ID: <003501c31d4f$918f10c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Since when is a Sage small? I thought these were in the 6'x3'10' class. > a small, oblong shaped doorstop. amazing. John A. From paulpenn at knology.net Sun May 18 10:15:00 2003 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3EC6370A.6070207@internet1.net> <10305171630.ZM27111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <010801c31d50$3cad85e0$6501a8c0@knology.net> I'm surprised no one here has mentioned De-Solv-It for removing sticky label residue. It's made from orange peels and is totally safe, yet works very well to remove a variety of sticky remnants. It was used extensively during the Alaskan oil spill to remove oil from wildlife. The company president drank some of his product at a demonstration to prove its safety, although they don't recommend this. The history and uses of the product are interesting: see their web site at: www.orange-sol.com It's available at Home Depot and Walmart or from the web site. I use it all the time to remove labels and their residue from old computers and CD jewell cases. It can even be used on paperback books and sofware boxes, as long as they have a slick, shiny finish. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From jrice54 at charter.net Sun May 18 10:19:00 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: MEK In-Reply-To: References: <20030518072202.8971.36911.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3EC7A55E.9080508@charter.net> I buy acetone in gallon cans at Lowes to clean inkjet heads. I've also been able to buy 99.5% pure isopropyl alcohol in liter bottles at Fry's. Some ink residues dissolve better in alcohol. What I miss is 1,1,1 trichloroethane. I worked in food processing plants, specifically margarine and vegetable oil production in the 70's through 1998. We used 1,1,1 tec to clean machinery from 1972 to 1979. Best degreaser ever, but it was nasty stuff. It dissolved almost everything except glass and the special polymer liners on the drums. If you dipped your hand in it, all of the skin oil would be removed and your skin would dry and crack almost immediately. All of this was pre-MSDS of course. The company used to let us take buckets of it home to degrease car parts. James Charles wrote: >I bought a gallon can of it at Home Depot last fall. They also >sell acetone, muriatic acid, and plenty of other "nasty" >chemicals. >-Charles > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From sleepyjackal at earthlink.net Sun May 18 10:40:01 2003 From: sleepyjackal at earthlink.net (Gary and the Samoyeds) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: A GENIAC selling for $800 References: Message-ID: <3EC7A28D.A005E4DB@earthlink.net> Well, not $800 (or whatever it's up to now), but if there were an exact replica, I'd pay a lot more than $9.95. I'm not a collector and CERTAINLY not a speculator, but I like to play with old tech stuff. Even if that risks breaking it. Even if it is not PHYSICALLY old, but an old design. -- "No matter what happens, the U.S. Navy is not going to be caught napping." -- Secretary of Navy, December 4, 1941 Send eMail to ----> grenaud@acm.org. For contact info, see: http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/contact.htm From ernestls at attbi.com Sun May 18 11:19:00 2003 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <200305170045.h4H0jXbc016407@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 5:46 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > The question is, how many people have taken the time to consider how > unhealthy the Classic Computer hobby actually is. Personally I > have serious admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it. I certainly have. I don't think that collecting ordinary things, by nature, is unhealthy but I was becoming TOO obsessed with it, and that's not a good thing. Fortunately for me, (in an awful sort of way)the economy hit my pocket book pretty hard, and I was forced to curtail my collecting habit. I was unemployed for nearly 6 months, and that goes a long way towards helping a person discover the true priorities in his life. Another positive that came out of an otherwise rough time was that I had the time and focus to "clean house" in many ways. I got rid of a lot of stuff, and not just old computer junk. I cleaned out my book, music, and movie collections. I donated a bunch of old clothes and furniture. I even had the carpet steam cleaned. I pretty much touched every item in my home, and asked myself if I really needed (or wanted) to keep it. If I didn't, I got rid of it. It was a very healthy and liberating experience for me. As for my computer collection, I got rid of almost all of it. Again, I picked up each item and asked myself two questions: 1. Do I really need this? 2. Can I easily replace it if I want it again later? Most of the stuff only required about two seconds of consideration, and out it went. Some items required more thought but just about everything is gone now, and the truth is, I really am OK without it. LOL. The only things that I decided to keep were a Morrow MD3 (and all of it's documentation,) a Valiant Turtle Robot, an Amstrad PC1512, and all of my Apple II clones. The best part is that I was able to find new homes for almost all of it, and I was even able to make a little money in the process. I feel great about my computer collecting hobby now. I have fewer annoying projects to get around to. My collection is neat and organized. I have space to live in again, and my hobby is so focused now that I won't need to worry about it getting out of hand again. I only collect Apple II clones. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 18 11:38:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: Paul Booth "Sage-II" (May 17, 0:32) References: Message-ID: <10305181246.ZM27782@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 0:32, Paul Booth wrote: > Anyone got one of these beasties? I picked it up last year or the year > before, in one of those daft runaway auctions, obviously ending up paying > way more than it was worth. > > Unfortunately there was no OS with it, so it's currently a small, oblong > shaped doorstop. Can anyone help me? I have a Sage-II, and I have UCSD p-System disks for it (one configured for an ANSI terminal, one for a VT52). They're DS DD 80-track disks (1280 blocks). I don't think I have any other software for it, though. Mail me off-list and I can arrange to make a copy and post it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 18 11:49:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <010801c31d50$3cad85e0$6501a8c0@knology.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3EC6370A.6070207@internet1.net> <10305171630.ZM27111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030518123756.134f31b4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What you're talking about is the same as Goo-Gone. It's been discussed here several times before but it's not effective for removing hard dried on tape resdue or permanent marker ink ("Sharpie" markers). Otherwise it great for tape and adhesive that hasn't dried up yet. Joe At 11:14 AM 5/18/03 -0400, you wrote: > I'm surprised no one here has mentioned De-Solv-It for removing sticky >label residue. It's made from orange peels and is totally safe, yet works >very well to remove a variety of sticky remnants. It was used extensively >during the Alaskan oil spill to remove oil from wildlife. The company >president drank some of his product at a demonstration to prove its safety, >although they don't recommend this. > > The history and uses of the product are interesting: see their web site >at: > > www.orange-sol.com > > It's available at Home Depot and Walmart or from the web site. > > I use it all the time to remove labels and their residue from old >computers and CD jewell cases. It can even be used on paperback books and >sofware boxes, as long as they have a slick, shiny finish. > > Paul Pennington > Augusta, Georgia From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 18 11:58:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: "Merle K. Peirce" "Re: Leaving the hobby" (May 18, 9:27) References: Message-ID: <10305181756.ZM27939@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 9:27, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I was going over some old cables, and found a strange card in them. > > It is marked C.A.V.I. interface and has a sticker that reads Cavri Systems. > There is a 1980 date etched on the board, and under the sticker it looks > like it says BCD Associates. There are seven chips on board, 2 > DM7416N's a DM74LS14N, 2 Magnecraft W107DIP-5's, a Magnecraft W118DIP-5, > and a rockwell 6520-11. There are 6 outputs: Monitor V, Monitor A, Audio > Ch1 and 2, Player V and Computer V, and a nasty HRS rectangular locking plug. > I suspect it might be for an Apple II, but everything else was Wang or > System36, so it could be anything. Does anyone recognise this? Sounds like some kind of interface to connect a computer, a monitor, and a LaserVision player (or some similar device). Such systems were used for training systems using video clips and stills. I remember Jaguar using such a system in the mid-eighties; they shipped one to each Jaguar dealer in the UK, with training disks for the vehicle technicians -- but those were PC-based, with Pioneer LaserVision players and fancy Sony monitors. CAV probably means Constant Angular Velocity; which is what is used on LaserVision disks designed for random access, especially picking out individual frames. The Magnecraft devices are DIL reed relays, possibly for video switching. If it doesn't have much else on it, I'd guess it doen't do any genlocking. Sorry, no idea what computer it fits. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jrice54 at charter.net Sun May 18 12:38:01 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030518123756.134f31b4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152832.0fef467c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <10305161849.ZM26297@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517080257.46f7ff4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3EC6370A.6070207@internet1.net> <10305171630.ZM27111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.16.20030518123756.134f31b4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EC7C5FC.60404@charter.net> I've had good luck with "Gum Label Remover" by Rawn America. It's labeled as an adhesive solvent and is sold for $4.99 a 3oz bottle at Fry's. It's a blend of naptha and citrus solvents. I've used it to remove velcro adhesive that I personally know was 12 years old from the side of monitors and had hardened to the point that it withstood scratching by my pocket knife. James Joe wrote: > What you're talking about is the same as Goo-Gone. It's been discussed >here several times before but it's not effective for removing hard dried on >tape resdue or permanent marker ink ("Sharpie" markers). Otherwise it >great for tape and adhesive that hasn't dried up yet. > > Joe > > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 18 12:52:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Can anyone tellme why a Name plate goes for over $135 Message-ID: <020701c31d66$0eae9ce0$460cdd40@oemcomputer> This Apple II name plate sold for over $135 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729182422 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 18 13:00:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: Now the auction seems strange $1508 for toy computer Message-ID: <020d01c31d67$1a340680$460cdd40@oemcomputer> The final price was $1580.01 for the Geniac. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729184339 From rickb at bensene.com Sun May 18 13:10:01 2003 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: RSTS & PDP-11/34a In-Reply-To: <001501c315b3$fc76cfc0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <001101c31d68$90b87d80$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Hello, all, I've been working for about the past three weeks on getting the PDP 11/34a up and running under RSTS/E. As a recap, the machine has 2 RX02 floppy drives, 1 RL01 drive, and 2 RK05j drives, 256Kb of parity RAM, programmer's panel, DZ11 8-port serial mux, console serial w/line clock, and EAE. There were lots of fits and starts on getting all of the peripherals working. Most of the problems were due to my ignorance of the characteristics of the UNIBUS. After getting some tutorials from a number of folks on and off the list, I learned the magic of grant continuity and NPG jumpers. In conjunction with lots of time with simh, and the wonderful program vtserver, I now have RSTS/E V7 running successfully on the machine. Right now it's only got a single terminal, as I have to remove an NPG jumper to install the DZ11, but the system is SYSGENed to recognize the DZ11 when it is installed. Learning the ins and out of SYSGEN was quite an experience, but in retrospect, it's an amazingly robust and (once the concepts are understood) relatively straightforward process. As many indicated would occur, it's a little slow, but very usable. The main reason for the slowness is that I have to add extra swap on the RK05's, which aren't the fastest drives in the world. The rack really shakes when running a big program as the RK05's thrash. Unfortunately, I don't have any RSTS documentation other than the HELP system, and a few tidbits that I've found on the web. Someone needs to scan at least the BASIC PLUS manual and put it up on the Web for reference. A few questions for the knowledgable out there: 1) Are RX floppy devices not file-structured devices under RSTS? I've tried using the standalone utility DSKINIT program to format one, and it won't regognize DX0:. The DX0: device shows up in the HARDWARE list. I can write a BASIC-PLUS program that opens DX0: and can write data out to it, but it just acts like one 'file', not a file-structured device. Is there any way to make the floppy drives under RSTS 7 file-structured devices? 2) I see references to BASIC-PLUS-2? What are the differences between BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS-2? I don't have any bits for BASIC-PLUS-2, but am curious about it. 3) Does anyone know if there was a FOCAL run-time system ever built for RSTS/E? 4) Can I take RT-11 (V4 or V5.3) .SAV programs and use them under the RT-11 runtime system under RSTS/E? an MACRO be used to assemble/link programs written for RT-11 to run in the RT11 runtime systme under RSTS/E? I suspect not, but am not sure. 5) Is there a version of KERMIT for RSTS/E V7? Anyone know where I can get it? 6) My 11/34a doesn't have the floating point hardware option. I had to SYSGEN RSTS with software-based 16-bit floating point. This certainly slows things down. However, I've heard that the FP11 significantly slows with the overall operation of the 11/34a. Would it be worthwhile for me to find and install an FP11, or not? 7) I have a 16-port backpanel for the DZ11. It takes two ribbon cables, one cable for each of two DZ11's that can connect up to it. I've got the right ribbon cable for connecting the one DZ11 that I have up to the backpanel to get 8 RS-232 ports. Anyone know the pinout for the DB-25 EIA connectors on the backpanel? I can probably figure it out with a breakout box, but it someone has it, all the easier. I'm hoping to hook the 8 ports up to a Xylogics Annex terminal server, and be able to TELNET to it. That way I can play with the machine (which is out in the shop) from my office in the house. This has been a great adventure, and a lot of fun. Thanks to the CC'ers who've helped me out along the way! Best to all, Rick Bensene http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun May 18 13:39:00 2003 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: RSTS & PDP-11/34a In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 May 2003 11:09:03 PDT." <001101c31d68$90b87d80$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <200305181828.TAA01471@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Rick Bensene" said: > Unfortunately, I don't have any RSTS documentation other than the HELP > system, and a few > tidbits that I've found on the web. Someone needs to scan at least the > BASIC PLUS manual > and put it up on the Web for reference. > http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rstsdoc/rsts-doc-v80/ http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/ I've been running RSTS/E on simh for a while, but I'm no expert so I can't help you a whole lot. I've just started to get to grips with RT-11, and today I managed to compile and run a program, so I'm feeling quite pleased :-) I just need to do it on the Micro-11/73 now... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From xtguy at mindspring.com Sun May 18 14:08:00 2003 From: xtguy at mindspring.com (xtguy@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:43 2005 Subject: WTB: expanded memory cards (and more) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030518130735.00db8788@mindspring.com> I noticed back in March that numerous people had Intel Aboveboard expanded memory cards for PC's which were offered on this list. I'm looking for at least several of the Intel that would work in an 8 bit slot (XT class) and several 16 bit ones that would work in a 286 or higher. I've been on this list for several months now (and I hope this isn't poor form) but I am looking for the following items as well: WordPerfect 2x or 3x for DOS Word for DOS 1x Morrow MDT-20, ADM-20 or MDT-50 video serial terminal IBM 5150 (case only) IBM 5170 (case only, power supply optional) Please contact me off the list. Thank you. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 18 14:13:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Still no Quotations from Chairman Morrow (was: VCFe Munich report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > But even here, Morrow's book ("Quotations from Chairman Morrow") or a > > xerox, is impossible to find, even though it was a freebie at Comdex 84. On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Might it have been published in the show guide for that year, or the next? Nope. It was handed out at the Morrow booth. little red book The show guide has a paragraph listing for each of the >1000 exhibitors, plus paid ads, plus promotion of the talks. I have gone through them in detail for other stuff. I'm now missing my copy of the '84, but I have duplicates of most other years. Our last hopes were to get one directly from George. Or maybe if his estate were contacted by a prestigious vintage computer organization?? From kth at srv.net Sun May 18 14:25:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: RSTS & PDP-11/34a References: <001101c31d68$90b87d80$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <3EC7E6FE.5050306@srv.net> Rick Bensene wrote: >Hello, all, > >I've been working for about the past three weeks on getting the PDP >11/34a >up and running under RSTS/E. > > [snip] > >Unfortunately, I don't have any RSTS documentation other than the HELP >system, and a few >tidbits that I've found on the web. Someone needs to scan at least the >BASIC PLUS manual >and put it up on the Web for reference. > > As others may have told you http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/ but it has documentation for V8 and V9, but not V7. V7 is quite old, and, as I understand it, anything up to V9.6 may be used under hobbyest license. Sorry, don't know which is the best version for a 34, but many improvements were made on the way to 9.6. >A few questions for the knowledgable out there: > >1) Are RX floppy devices not file-structured devices under RSTS? I've >tried using the standalone >utility DSKINIT program to format one, and it won't regognize DX0:. The >DX0: device shows up in the HARDWARE list. I can write a BASIC-PLUS >program that opens DX0: and can write data out to it, >but it just acts like one 'file', not a file-structured device. Is >there any way to make the floppy drives under RSTS 7 file-structured >devices? > Were there 8 inch floppies really available to PDP11's in the V7 timeframe? Apparently they are recognized at some level, but I think you needed to use a program ('fit'?) to do anything with them. I think you may just need a newer version of RSTS to get more support. > >2) I see references to BASIC-PLUS-2? What are the differences between >BASIC-PLUS and >BASIC-PLUS-2? I don't have any bits for BASIC-PLUS-2, but am curious >about it. > Basic-Plus is an interperture[sp], Basic+2 is a compiler. Basic+2 also gives you access to RMS data files, and many other enhancements, like speed and more memory available for your program, and the ability to use modules ompiled in other languages. >3) Does anyone know if there was a FOCAL run-time system ever built for >RSTS/E? > Probably someone did one. Look to the DECUS archives. Hopefully someone has recovered a atpe. >4) Can I take RT-11 (V4 or V5.3) .SAV programs and use them under the >RT-11 runtime system under RSTS/E? an MACRO be used to assemble/link >programs written for RT-11 to run in the RT11 runtime >systme under RSTS/E? I suspect not, but am not sure. > Depends on the program. RSTS/E only implements a subset of the RT11 system, but many programs should work. >5) Is there a version of KERMIT for RSTS/E V7? Anyone know where I can >get it? > > Should be available. Look on http://www.columbia.edu/kermit >6) My 11/34a doesn't have the floating point hardware option. I had to >SYSGEN RSTS with >software-based 16-bit floating point. This certainly slows things down. >However, I've heard >that the FP11 significantly slows with the overall operation of the >11/34a. Would it be worthwhile for me to find and install an FP11, or >not? > > Depends on how much floating point you do. Adding floating point processor should allow you to reduce the size of the monitor/compilers. (by losing the floating point emulation) >7) I have a 16-port backpanel for the DZ11. It takes two ribbon cables, >one cable for each >of two DZ11's that can connect up to it. I've got the right ribbon >cable for connecting the >one DZ11 that I have up to the backpanel to get 8 RS-232 ports. Anyone >know the pinout for >the DB-25 EIA connectors on the backpanel? I can probably figure it out >with a breakout box, >but it someone has it, all the easier. I'm hoping to hook the 8 ports >up to a Xylogics Annex >terminal server, and be able to TELNET to it. That way I can play with >the machine (which is out in the shop) from my office in the house. > > Should be standard RS-232. Shouldn't be anything special about them. Should only need pins 2,3,7 to get things started to work (assuming the server can handle Xon/Xoff). Ad more wires as you need additional features. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun May 18 15:36:01 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Writing single density disks on a PC? In-Reply-To: <020d01c31d67$1a340680$460cdd40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030518133912.02632e30@mail.zipcon.net> Ok, I want ot generate some disks for my Model 4 on my PC, BUT some of the disks I want to regenerate are mixed single and double density ... any suggestions? From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 18 15:43:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Can anyone tellme why a Name plate goes for over $135 Message-ID: >This Apple II name plate sold for over $135 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729182422 Didn't you read the auction... it sold for that high because it is "Super Rare". Now, if it was a name plate with the case still attached, that isn't so rare... but to find just the name place sans case in the wild... wow! I hope my sarcasm isn't too strong. I'd maybe do a better job of making it clear, but I'm a little busy with my pocket knife trying to pry the name plates off some of my Apple II gear! -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 18 15:45:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Now the auction seems strange $1508 for toy computer In-Reply-To: <020d01c31d67$1a340680$460cdd40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030518161252.43272488@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I think I'm going to be sick! At 12:58 PM 5/18/03 -0500, you wrote: >The final price was $1580.01 for the Geniac. >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729184339 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 16:57:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: from "Paul Booth" at May 17, 3 00:32:46 am Message-ID: > Hi guys, > > Anyone got one of these beasties? I picked it up last year or the year > before, in one of those daft runaway auctions, obviously ending up paying > way more than it was worth. > > Unfortunately there was no OS with it, so it's currently a small, oblong > shaped doorstop. Can anyone help me? I have the same problem. I also have a Sage II but no OS. I think it can run the UCSD P-system or CP/M-68K, but I've not found either for it yet. I do have the user manual for it, which includes scheamtics and instrucyions for the ROM monitor, so I am perhaps a little better off. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 17:01:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v In-Reply-To: <007701c31cd6$aad87f40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 17, 3 08:44:40 pm Message-ID: > +AD4- the data sheet of many 3 terminal > +AD4- regulators shows how... > > FWIW all the 7085's (and 7905's, whatever they The 7905 is the -ve version -- the +ve rail is the common ground between input and output (with the 7805 it's the -ve rail that's common). Be warned that the pinout is different between the 7805 and 7905... > are) that I get came w/o datasheets. So do mine -- I use plenty of 7805s, but I only need one data sheet :-). I bought the National Semiconductor power devices databook, which includes this datasheet. I suspect you can also get the datasheet as a .pdf file on the web somewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 17:11:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at May 18, 3 09:27:21 am Message-ID: > I was going over some old cables, and found a strange card in them. > > It is marked C.A.V.I. interface and has a sticker that reads Cavri Systems. Maybe 'Constant Angular Velocity Interactive'? This sounds like a video disk player interface > There is a 1980 date etched on the board, and under the sticker it looks > like it says BCD Associates. There are seven chips on board, 2 > DM7416N's a DM74LS14N, 2 Magnecraft W107DIP-5's, a Magnecraft W118DIP-5, > and a rockwell 6520-11. There are 6 outputs: Monitor V, Monitor A, Audio > Ch1 and 2, Player V and Computer V, and a nasty HRS rectangular locking plug. Monitor video, monitor audio, Audio inputs from the videodisk player (2 channels), player video and computer video. I would guess the rectangular connector is for the remote control signals to the player (to select individual frames, etc). -tony From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun May 18 17:46:00 2003 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > > Behalf Of Steven N. Hirsch > > Sent: 16 May 2003 22:50 > > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > > Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC > > > > If you have the hardware and the patience to get it all working together, > > I suggest AppleTalk networking. I have a IIgs and //e networked off a > > Linux box (running Netatalk). Works very well for mass > > file-copying, it's > > fast and the file dates are preserved properly. > > > > You'll need (at a minimum): > > > > - Ethernet <---> LocalTalk bridge. I use a Shiva FastPath 4, but there > > are dozens of models which are reported to work. Gator Box is one I've > > heard a lot about. > > > > - Apple //e + Apple Workstation card > > > > and/or > > > > - Apple IIgs (Rom 3 preferable) > > > > Server can be a Mac, in which case the necessary protocols are (or should > > be) there already. For Linux, you need appletalk support in the kernel > > and the very latest version of netatalk. > > > > For configuration info, read the docs. Then, read the docs. Finally, > > read the code . > > Meep! I can do all of that apart from the LocalTalk bridge and the > Workstation card, though such a beast may exist in my Big Box Of Apple Cards > That Are Hitherto Undocumented. Hmm. At least I know where THAT is.....been > having much difficulty in finding stuff of late! If you can scrounge up a IIgs, you don't even need the Workstation card. LocalTalk is built in. Steve From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 18 17:50:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Sage-II" (May 18, 22:51) References: Message-ID: <10305182348.ZM28136@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 22:51, Tony Duell wrote: > I have the same problem. I also have a Sage II but no OS. I think it can > run the UCSD P-system or CP/M-68K, but I've not found either for it yet. As I said earlier, I have UCSD p-System disks. I just realised I also have Teledisk images of CP/M-68K for it, which I think Don Maslin sent me the last time this came up on the list. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 18:00:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: <10305182348.ZM28136@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Peter Turnbull" at May 18, 3 11:48:49 pm Message-ID: > On May 18, 22:51, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have the same problem. I also have a Sage II but no OS. I think it > can > > run the UCSD P-system or CP/M-68K, but I've not found either for it > yet. > > As I said earlier, I have UCSD p-System disks. I just realised I also Do you have the complete p-System that was distributed for these machines (with the Pasacal compiler and the 68000 assembler) or just the OS (and filer?) that's needed to run ready-written software? -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 18 18:21:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Infotek Info RE: HP 9000 300 data acquisition card - Infotek AD200 Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030518191904.0f2f6e02@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Peter, Did you ever find out anything about this card, other than the technical description that someone posted? I THOUGHT I might have a manual for it and I went looking for it today but didn't find it. (I'm still looking). However I did find an Infotek manual for a 2Mb memory board for the 9000 200s. It says that Infotek is a division of ALS Corporation and their address was 1400 N Baxter St, Anaheim, California. This manual is dated 1985 so they may or may not still be around but it might help in your search. I think there are several list members in that area, maybe you can get one of them to search locally. I have several Infotech devices including ROMs for the 9825, 9845, a memory card for the HP IPC and a couple of these 2Mb cards for the 9000 200 computers so I'd like to try and track them down too. One thing that prompted me to look for the manual is that I'm working with Bob Shannon on HP 1000s and he has a card for the 1000 that sounds like it's exactly the same thing in a different form factor. Even the specs look the same. We're trying to figure out how to program, trigger and read it and I'm guessing that that will be the same for both HP cards and your Infotek card. Joe > >Peter, > > What kind of terminal(s) does it have? It sounds like it might be a A/D or perhaps a D/A card. HP made some A/Ds I think I have some docs on it somewhere. I used to have one the cards I never got around doing anything with it. I never even pulled it out of the machine so I don't know if it was made by HP or if it was made by someone else. IIRC it had a row of screw terminal on the back side of it. I looked through the manual for the HP A/D card at one time and I don't think it took any special software. The system treated it somewhat like a GPIO card but the digital value that was input was converted from the analog input. If you output a digital value to the card it selected the channel number (12 channels as I recall) and range. If you think your card may be a A/D, I'll try to find the docs that I have. > > I forgot to ask, is this a DIO card? > > Joe > >At 09:47 PM 5/3/03 +0000, you wrote: >>Hi All, >> >>I've just acquired an HP 9000 series R332. In the back of it amongst the >>usual HPIB / GPIB cards there is a card marked Infotek Systems AD200 >>Converter, \ Assy 900-13992 rev E - I assume that this is some sort of data >>acquisition card. >> >>Does anyone have details of the card specification / the software required >>to drive it? >> >>Cheers >> >>Peter Brown >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! >>http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 18 18:24:03 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: anybody here have a HP 8752 or 8753 Network Analyzer? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030518191523.0f2f0f46@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Just what the title says. Joe From at258 at osfn.org Sun May 18 18:27:00 2003 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <10305181756.ZM27939@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Pete, you and Tony have been very helpful. The board seems the only piece of the system that has survived, and completely out of context. On Sun, 18 May 2003, Peter Turnbull wrote: > On May 18, 9:27, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > I was going over some old cables, and found a strange card in them. > > > > It is marked C.A.V.I. interface and has a sticker that reads Cavri > Systems. > > There is a 1980 date etched on the board, and under the sticker it > looks > > like it says BCD Associates. There are seven chips on board, 2 > > DM7416N's a DM74LS14N, 2 Magnecraft W107DIP-5's, a Magnecraft > W118DIP-5, > > and a rockwell 6520-11. There are 6 outputs: Monitor V, Monitor A, > Audio > > Ch1 and 2, Player V and Computer V, and a nasty HRS rectangular > locking plug. > > I suspect it might be for an Apple II, but everything else was Wang > or > > System36, so it could be anything. Does anyone recognise this? > > Sounds like some kind of interface to connect a computer, a monitor, > and a LaserVision player (or some similar device). Such systems were > used for training systems using video clips and stills. I remember > Jaguar using such a system in the mid-eighties; they shipped one to > each Jaguar dealer in the UK, with training disks for the vehicle > technicians -- but those were PC-based, with Pioneer LaserVision > players and fancy Sony monitors. CAV probably means Constant Angular > Velocity; which is what is used on LaserVision disks designed for > random access, especially picking out individual frames. The > Magnecraft devices are DIL reed relays, possibly for video switching. > If it doesn't have much else on it, I'd guess it doen't do any > genlocking. > > Sorry, no idea what computer it fits. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 18 19:02:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. In-Reply-To: <010801c31d50$3cad85e0$6501a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Paul Pennington wrote: > I'm surprised no one here has mentioned De-Solv-It for removing sticky > label residue. It's made from orange peels and is totally safe, yet works > very well to remove a variety of sticky remnants. It was used extensively > during the Alaskan oil spill to remove oil from wildlife. The company > president drank some of his product at a demonstration to prove its safety, > although they don't recommend this. Different citrus-based cleansers are more effective than others. I've never used Do-Solv-It before but Goof Off is basically the same thing and works quite well. I once used a product called "A Touch of Orange" and it worked excellently with crayon on plastic cases (this is the way some thrift stores annoyingly price their items). > I use it all the time to remove labels and their residue from old > computers and CD jewell cases. It can even be used on paperback books and > sofware boxes, as long as they have a slick, shiny finish. Indeed. But make sure you don't allow any to get into any cracks, scratches or rips in the paper or else it will stain the cover. Also, avoid exposing it to the cut edge of the cover on paperbacks because it will absorb into the paper pulp and cause discoloration. It also helps to apply the cleaner to your rag first and then rub the offending gunk with the rag. Spraying any liquid onto a book can sometimes have undesired effects if you're not careful. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From donm at cts.com Sun May 18 19:12:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Paul Booth wrote: > Hi guys, > > Anyone got one of these beasties? I picked it up last year or the year > before, in one of those daft runaway auctions, obviously ending up paying > way more than it was worth. > > Unfortunately there was no OS with it, so it's currently a small, oblong > shaped doorstop. Can anyone help me? > > Cheers, > > Paul. Paul if you have a PC with 5.25" 1.2mb drive and a copy of TeleDisk, I will email you a three disk image set of CP/M-68 for your Sage. - don From loedman1 at juno.com Sun May 18 20:29:00 2003 From: loedman1 at juno.com (loedman1@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: <20030518.182507.-103093.0.loedman1@juno.com> On Sat, 17 May 2003 Rich wrote: >> my collection at over $10,000, including my Kaypro 10 at $2,500, a PS2 at >> $1,500 and a 9 pin Epson at $160. The current wife is an electrician To which Sellam added, >Don't you know you're only supposed to brag about what your collection is >worth to other geeks? And Rich responded, I know, but sometimes it is necessary to grossly inflate the value in order to be allowed to enter the house with the latest "find". Oh and the word she used was most definitely not "geek", but then again I suppose that I should not have called her the C word in open court, but the more chins than a Chinese phone book comment did make the judge laugh. Rich From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 18 21:34:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: >I know, but sometimes it is necessary to grossly inflate the value in >order to be allowed to enter the house with the latest "find". Oh and the >word she used was most definitely not "geek", but then again I suppose >that I should not have called her the C word in open court, but the more >chins than a Chinese phone book comment did make the judge laugh. Lesson to be learned (besides being civil in court), always claim the most worthless item in the collection is the most valuable. That way she runs off with easily replaced junk and leaves all the real good stuff behind. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 18 21:38:06 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: <20030518.182507.-103093.0.loedman1@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003 loedman1@juno.com wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 2003 Rich wrote: > >> my collection at over $10,000, including my Kaypro 10 at $2,500, a PS2 > at > >> $1,500 and a 9 pin Epson at $160. The current wife is an electrician > > To which Sellam added, > > >Don't you know you're only supposed to brag about what your collection > is > >worth to other geeks? > > And Rich responded, > I know, but sometimes it is necessary to grossly inflate the value in > order to be allowed to enter the house with the latest "find". Oh and the > word she used was most definitely not "geek", but then again I suppose > that I should not have called her the C word in open court, but the more > chins than a Chinese phone book comment did make the judge laugh. No, no, no. Wrong tactic. You must insist that you are saving the legacy of computer history that will one day restart mankind after some armegeddon wipes out most of our population and technology and we must start over. Then you afford yourself a messianic stature. Talking up its monetary value will, as you have so painfully learned, only come back to bite you in the ass later. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 18 22:39:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby References: Message-ID: <3EC850D8.1000102@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > No, no, no. Wrong tactic. You must insist that you are saving the legacy > of computer history that will one day restart mankind after some > armegeddon wipes out most of our population and technology and we must > start over. Then you afford yourself a messianic stature. Try learing flint hand axes instead. :) From rdd at rddavis.org Sun May 18 22:49:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: References: <20030518.182507.-103093.0.loedman1@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030519034925.GC12615@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Vintage Computer Festival, from writings of Sun, May 18, 2003 at 07:30:15PM -0700: > No, no, no. Wrong tactic. You must insist that you are saving the legacy > of computer history that will one day restart mankind after some > armegeddon wipes out most of our population and technology and we must > start over. Then you afford yourself a messianic stature. And, let's not forget to insist that the judge address you as "your royal holiness of technology preservation." Refuse to address the court without being bowed to. Insist that the judge, and everyone else, who doesn't collect computers, waits for the royal wave from you before they speak. Lastly, when asked any computer-related questions, insist that you be allowed to consult your followers and members of your extended royal family, the classiccmp group. If they attempt to charge you with contempt of court, plead permanent insanity (remember, insanity is a good thing). When they try to cart you away to the funny farm, claim that you're not mentally unstable, just eccentric, but not crazy like everyone else who doesn't preserve vast quantities of computers. Swear on the Weeks and James book "Eccentrics," and a stack of holy 7th Edition UNIX source code, that it's the truth. ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 19 00:38:01 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. References: <3EC48BC8.8030301@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030518221809.00a44d60@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 07:00 PM 5/16/03 -0400, Mail List wrote: > >> And clean is better than all marked up. > > > Such as that O1 that Adam autographed > >Then the GSA surplus employees wrote "LOT 42" right >over top of it. That is when you start working with Qtips or bits of tissue wrapped on the end of tweezers, and practice until your good at controlling contact edge on something else. From oldcomp at cox.net Mon May 19 01:39:01 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: anybody here have a HP 8752 or 8753 Network Analyzer? References: <3.0.6.16.20030518191523.0f2f0f46@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EC87BB0.9010707@cox.net> I do; HP8753A, with all the toys and all the books. (This is kind of on topic, since it is microprocessor controlled and was released in 1985! :o) What do you need? -Bryan Joe wrote: > Just what the title says. > > Joe From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 19 01:48:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Can anyone tellme why a Name plate goes for over $135 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC87D4A.3040506@internet1.net> chris wrote: > Didn't you read the auction... it sold for that high because it is "Super > Rare". Now, if it was a name plate with the case still attached, that > isn't so rare... but to find just the name place sans case in the wild... > wow! Actually, it probably was rare. If you read the auction it stated the badge was unused. I wouldn't buy it, but then I'm not a big time Apple // collector. I believe that "Bigmike30" is the guy that bought my Apple // stickers from me. They were still in the bag with the staple holding it closed. He also bought the almost new floppy drive that I had. It was "used" only in the respect that I basically tested it, and then left it out of the box for awhile. He's a serious Apple // collector and asked specific questions before bidding on both of my auctions. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 19 02:10:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Sage-II" (May 18, 23:55) References: Message-ID: <10305190803.ZM28372@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 23:55, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you have the complete p-System that was distributed for these machines > (with the Pasacal compiler and the 68000 assembler) or just the OS (and > filer?) that's needed to run ready-written software? I don't remember exactly what's on the disks, but essentialy the two dsks differ only in the VDU setup, and I suspect they're not a complete p-System with all the extras. Probably the editor and compiler, etc but not much more. It's probably possible to copy the non-system-specific parts from another system, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 19 07:41:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: anybody here have a HP 8752 or 8753 Network Analyzer? In-Reply-To: <3EC87BB0.9010707@cox.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20030518191523.0f2f0f46@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030519083754.48bfc556@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I was going through some HP computer manuals and a disk fell out. It's a HP disk for those NAs and it says that it is "Example Programs Using QuickBASIC 4.5". It's new and still in the little thin platic cover. Need it? Joe At 11:37 PM 5/18/03 -0700, you wrote: >I do; HP8753A, with all the toys and all the books. (This is kind of on >topic, since it is microprocessor controlled and was released in 1985! >:o) What do you need? > >-Bryan > >Joe wrote: > >> Just what the title says. >> >> Joe From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon May 19 09:09:00 2003 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis Message-ID: My '73 Toyota Land Cruiser Station Wagon had a starting crank. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:01 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > The newest car that I've had that had a crank was a 1958 VW pickup, > although the U.S. models stopped in the early 50s. But the parts were I am pretty sure that UK Land Rovers had the starting handle at least until the late 1970s... The series 3 workshop manual shows the special dog bolt anyway. The starting handle makes some maintenance jobs (setting the valve clearances and the static ignition timing, for example) a lot easier too... -tony From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 09:30:01 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: <11a.2301d2ab.2bf83c19@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Got a RS6000 model 250. It had the key in the switch which I understand > is a good thing. Is this computer worth keeping? It's kinda slow. PowerPC 601 at 66 or 80 MHz. Uses ECC PPD 72-pin SIMM's. The "lower" model in the 7011-series, the RS/6000 POWERstation 220 actually outruns it in most thing running a POWER at 33MHz. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 09:31:56 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > 4) EPA has declared your house a hazardous waste site due to all > > > > the PCBs. > > > > Is this a deliberate double-meaning of 'PCB' (PolyChlorinated > > Biphenyls .vs. Printed Circuit Boards)? THe former are what the EPA > > moans about (and are not that common in classic computers [1]) the > > latter are not particulalry hazardous... > > But they are classed as "hazardous waste" in California, and a growing > number of other states. But if it's your personal stuff, you can take a "household exemption". Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 09:33:46 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Witchy wrote: > > It won't run NetBSD. It uses a terminal and runs software specific to > > the infoserver. It can act as a storage server, serving disk to VMS > > machines, and also as a MOP boot server for VAX, PMAX, and Alpha > > machines. > > This I can confirm having just tried to boot VMS 7.3 and finding it's > not very happy with that arrangement at all and just locks up :) > > VAX ROMs will be required I think. Don't bother. Just get the InfoServer software and use it as "god intended". 8-) The device is quite useful in and of itself. Peace... Sridhar From paul at grumpy.co.uk Mon May 19 09:35:28 2003 From: paul at grumpy.co.uk (Paul Booth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: <003501c31d4f$918f10c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > Since when is a Sage small? > I thought these were in the 6'x3'10' class. We're obviously talking about different things: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/pictures/sage-ii-large.jpg Paul. From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 09:37:09 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: MEK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't MEK a carcinogen? (Unlike HCl or Acetone...) Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 18 May 2003, Charles wrote: > On Sun, 18 May 2003 02:22:02 -0500, you wrote: > > >MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible for an > >individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > > > > Joe > > I bought a gallon can of it at Home Depot last fall. They also > sell acetone, muriatic acid, and plenty of other "nasty" > chemicals. > -Charles From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 09:38:52 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: MEK Message-ID: I'm wrong. That was MEK-P. Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 09:40:31 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: MEK Message-ID: I checked... I can't seem to find any government controls on MEK in the U.S. anywhere. And the MSDS reads essentially identically to the one for Acetone. Peace... Sridhar From tferkle at comcast.net Mon May 19 09:42:17 2003 From: tferkle at comcast.net (tferkle@comcast.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Mac Classic Message-ID: <000a01c31d5e$de04e560$6501a8c0@trnrsv01.nj.comcast.net> I have two, fully funtional, Mac Classic's that I want to sell. Anyone interested? thomas.m.ferkle@lmco.com From jontitus at attbi.com Mon May 19 09:43:57 2003 From: jontitus at attbi.com (Jon Titus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Duct-tape residue In-Reply-To: <20030516170001.89840.31863.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: To remove the residue from non-water-soluble adhesives left behind by masking tape, labels, duct tape, electrical tape, etc., I've used xylene or xylol with good results. You can find this fluid sold under the brand names "Goof Off," or "Oops!" in the paint sections of hardware stores. (It removed latex-based paint drips or "slop" from trim, baseboards, floors, etc.) Some hardware stores may sell plain xylene, too. Use outdoors, and try it on any material before going all out. It will dissolve some plastics such as polystyrene. As a fallback, you can use denatured ethyl alcohol (ethanol). Rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol, a.k.a. isopropanol) as sold in pharmacies contains a lot of water and it doesn't do a good job. Jon Jon Titus 36 Sunset Drive Milford, MA 01757-1362 USA Phone: +1-508-478-8040 E-mail: jontitus@attbi.com Member, National Association of Science Writers From a.cranston at selwaymoore.com Mon May 19 09:46:00 2003 From: a.cranston at selwaymoore.com (Andy Cranston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: In search of Christopher Willis Message-ID: <45D0365A2FF3D611960E00D0B7BA2A6C1DD8C8@SMLMAIL> And you can reverse your vehicle up steep sand dunes too (see Ice Cold in Alex :-) -----Original Message----- From: Feldman, Robert [mailto:Robert_Feldman@jdedwards.com] Sent: 19 May 2003 15:08 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: In search of Christopher Willis My '73 Toyota Land Cruiser Station Wagon had a starting crank. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:01 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: In search of Christopher Willis > The newest car that I've had that had a crank was a 1958 VW pickup, > although the U.S. models stopped in the early 50s. But the parts were I am pretty sure that UK Land Rovers had the starting handle at least until the late 1970s... The series 3 workshop manual shows the special dog bolt anyway. The starting handle makes some maintenance jobs (setting the valve clearances and the static ignition timing, for example) a lot easier too... -tony _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by the Selway Moore Ltd (www.selwaymoore.com) scanning service, powered by MessageLabs. 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For further information and statistics on current viruses visit http://www.messagelabs.com/stats.asp From pat at purdueriots.com Mon May 19 09:47:42 2003 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003 vance@neurotica.com wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 2003 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > Got a RS6000 model 250. It had the key in the switch which I understand > > is a good thing. Is this computer worth keeping? > > It's kinda slow. PowerPC 601 at 66 or 80 MHz. Uses ECC PPD 72-pin > SIMM's. The "lower" model in the 7011-series, the RS/6000 POWERstation > 220 actually outruns it in most thing running a POWER at 33MHz. IMHO it's not too bad. I've noticed it does seem to boot AIX faster than the 220; if you're not doing 64bit stuff, it's a fair amount faster, since it's just a 32bit proc not a 64bit one. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 19 09:49:22 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Steven N. Hirsch > Sent: 18 May 2003 23:42 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC > > > That Are Hitherto Undocumented. Hmm. At least I know where THAT > is.....been > > having much difficulty in finding stuff of late! > > If you can scrounge up a IIgs, you don't even need the Workstation card. > LocalTalk is built in. I've got 2 IIgs' here, a ROM 00 one signed by the man himself and a ROM 03 one. This means I only need a Shiva bridge....:) *hint to Mike Ford :o))* cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From wa7duy at charter.net Mon May 19 09:51:03 2003 From: wa7duy at charter.net (Jim Pruitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Did you guys ever find a source for any TIL306's? Message-ID: <00dd01c31dbf$774d0080$6401a8c0@cl3238048c> Hello Joe. I ran across your message at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html about the TIL306. Did you or Toth ever find any TIL306's? I am also looking for some (8 of them to be exact) and like you and Toth have been able to find several TIL311's but no TIL306's. Thank you. Jim Pruitt http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html and http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007252.html substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? Joe cctech@classiccmp.org Mon Jan 6 01:37:30 2003 a.. Previous message: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? b.. Next message: Pinout for EECO Tape Reader? c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- At 01:18 AM 1/4/03 -0600, you wrote: > >I have the datasheet for the 311 in pdf format if you'd like me to email >it to you. The 311 has a built-in BCD decoder, but not a counter, like the >306/307. I need the counter function but I'd like a copy of the PDF anyway. > >> > I'll make a note to check a couple of my local surplus dealers over >> > the next few weeks. If I find any TIL306 displays, I'll pick them up. >> > Should I also hunt for any 307s? >> >> 306's or 307s will work equally well. The one difference between them is >> that one has the decimal point to the left of the digit and the other >> has the dp on the right. My unit doesn't use the decimal points so >> either display will work fine. > >Ok, thats what I wanted to be sure of. Often devices didn't use the >decimal points, but I didn't want to assume that was the case. > >> > If all else fails, would it be possible to salvage your displays? I've >> > carefully ground back ceramic and plastic on other dip components to >> > attach replacement leads in the past, but it isn't a fun task... >> >> It's possible but all the leads on them are weak and I'd probably have >> to eventually replace ALL the leads. > >Been there, done that. I have a pile of early 74244s and other 7400 series >logic chips that have nearly nothing left of their leads due to the foam >that were stored in for roughly 15-20 years. Same here. I squirreled away a lot of parts over the years but found that many of them were damaged due to the foam. Fortunately I've get some pretty good scrap sources and I've been finding lots of military grade cards with socketed ICs in the last couple of years so I've been picking them up and pulling the ICs and storing them in parts cabinets. I've amassed a huge stock in just the last year. I was also lucky last year and picked up a good number of parts cabinets that have all the drawers made out of anti-static material. I had been keeping the parts in anti-static foam for AS protestion but now I don't have to. .Thankfully, the TIL311s and >most of the other chips that came in the same batch of parts didn't have >the same problem, though their leads had to be cleaned. I have a fair number of 308 and 311 displays that I've pulled from cards and the local surplus place has plenty of them but the 306/307s seem to be scarce. Joe > >-Toth > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- a.. Previous message: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? b.. Next message: Pinout for EECO Tape Reader? c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 19 09:52:46 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030516192645.02cf8e60@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: Hi Rob, > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Rob O'Donnell > Sent: 16 May 2003 19:29 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer > > > I remember these being in use at Ferranti, when I was an apprentice there > about 20 years ago .. (so age fits!) AFAICR we only ever used them in > stand-alone mode as a bulk copier. They were also RENTED, from > Livingston > Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so > there may be a chance you can find some old docs from them. Is that these people? http://www.livingston.co.uk They mention equipment rental under their 'computer products' section..... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From purpletwilight3000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 19 09:54:29 2003 From: purpletwilight3000 at yahoo.co.uk (PurpleT3K) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: PERQ 1 Message-ID: <008f01c31df2$678eaa80$0e00a8c0@PLATINUM> Hi I recently acquired a Three Rivers Computer PERQ 1, together with PNX - a unix style OS. Unfortunately in the previous move the PERQ HD was not locked - so the HD needs reformatting. Does anyone have the formatter software (on 8" disk) for this machine - I understand it wasnt distributed with the OS. I have a PNX boot disk - but no POS so would need a bootable POS disk with the formatter on to get the system up and running. Any help appreciated. Thanks Ian. From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Mon May 19 09:56:12 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089B6@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> That's sort of what I was thinking of. Of course, as you say, it is ZX81 specific. Were these home computer tape format's standardised in any way, or at least based on an older standard? I seem to remember a format called "Cottis-Blandford" from years ago. Am I right in saying that most home computer's tape data format was 1200Hz and 2400Hz for logic 0 and 1 (maybe the other way round). How many stop/start & parity bits (and possibly more control bits) are sent may be computer-specific I guess. Sampling the audio stream and decoding the 0s and 1s would not be too hard a task if a sound card with easy access to the sampling hardware was available. It would then be relatively simple to write an application would allow the number of start, stop, data (probably 8!) and parity bits to be selected, world decode the string of 0s and 1s into a byte-file. The format of this file, again, would be computer-specific of course. If I get time I may have a go at this. paul -----Original Message----- From: David Holland [mailto:dholland@woh.rr.com] Sent: 17 May 2003 02:36 To: Classic Computer Talk Subject: RE: Preserving ancient media The following MIGHT be a good place to start: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Ridge/9965/ ZXTAPE 3.0 Its directed towards the zx81, but it could be applicable to your application. Dunno. I've a feeling every computers tape format is different, though. David On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 03:25, Hills, Paul wrote: > I have quite a bit of software on cassette tapes for 1980s home computers. > Does anyone know of a simple method (without having to design and build > myself a dual-tone decoder circuit + write suitable PC software) of getting > this information onto a PC? I guess the home computer emulator pages on the > web must have done this. > > Maybe I could record it as a WAV file then write a program to decode the > WAV? Or would MP3 encoding be capable of compressing and reliable expanding > the audio data (MP3 is of course designed to compress music which these > squeaks and whistles clearly are not, even if they lie within the audio > spectrum!). > > paul From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Mon May 19 09:57:52 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089B7@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Answering my own question, (and if anyone else is interested), there is a utility here: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~edsa/#kcs that will make WAV files ine Kansas City Standard, or CUTS standard, from any input file, that can be recorded to a tape. It can also decode audio WAV files into data. Comes with documentation too, and looks pretty good. paul -----Original Message----- From: David Holland [mailto:dholland@woh.rr.com] Sent: 17 May 2003 02:36 To: Classic Computer Talk Subject: RE: Preserving ancient media The following MIGHT be a good place to start: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Ridge/9965/ ZXTAPE 3.0 Its directed towards the zx81, but it could be applicable to your application. Dunno. I've a feeling every computers tape format is different, though. David On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 03:25, Hills, Paul wrote: > I have quite a bit of software on cassette tapes for 1980s home computers. > Does anyone know of a simple method (without having to design and build > myself a dual-tone decoder circuit + write suitable PC software) of getting > this information onto a PC? I guess the home computer emulator pages on the > web must have done this. > > Maybe I could record it as a WAV file then write a program to decode the > WAV? Or would MP3 encoding be capable of compressing and reliable expanding > the audio data (MP3 is of course designed to compress music which these > squeaks and whistles clearly are not, even if they lie within the audio > spectrum!). > > paul From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 19 10:02:01 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Mac Classic In-Reply-To: <000a01c31d5e$de04e560$6501a8c0@trnrsv01.nj.comcast.net> from "tferkle@comcast.net" at "May 18, 3 12:59:38 pm" Message-ID: <200305191502.IAA07464@floodgap.com> > I have two, fully funtional, Mac Classic's that I want to sell. Anyone > interested? Colour Classics or just plain old Classics? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group ------------ From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon May 19 10:13:01 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Did you guys ever find a source for any TIL306's? In-Reply-To: <00dd01c31dbf$774d0080$6401a8c0@cl3238048c> References: <00dd01c31dbf$774d0080$6401a8c0@cl3238048c> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Jim Pruitt wrote: > I ran across your message at > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html > about the TIL306. Did you or Toth ever find any TIL306's? I am also > looking for some (8 of them to be exact) and like you and Toth have been > able to find several TIL311's but no TIL306's. Jim, I'm afraid I haven't been able to locate a supplier for them. I did however end up in contact with Randy Gill , who's company is making new TIL311s. He told me he could have TIL306/307/308s made if there were enough demand, probably at least 1000-2000 units a year. -Toth From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 19 10:16:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:44 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003 vance@neurotica.com wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > > 4) EPA has declared your house a hazardous waste site due to all > > > > > the PCBs. > > > > > > Is this a deliberate double-meaning of 'PCB' (PolyChlorinated > > > Biphenyls .vs. Printed Circuit Boards)? THe former are what the EPA > > > moans about (and are not that common in classic computers [1]) the > > > latter are not particulalry hazardous... > > > > But they are classed as "hazardous waste" in California, and a growing > > number of other states. > > But if it's your personal stuff, you can take a "household exemption". Well, technically they are not considered "hazardous" until they enter the waste stream. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 19 10:17:42 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Duct-tape residue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Jon Titus wrote: > To remove the residue from non-water-soluble adhesives left behind by > masking tape, labels, duct tape, electrical tape, etc., I've used xylene or > xylol with good results. You can find this fluid sold under the brand names > "Goof Off," or "Oops!" in the paint sections of hardware stores. (It > removed latex-based paint drips or "slop" from trim, baseboards, floors, > etc.) I was just in the hardware store yesterday and saw a big can of Xylene and wondered what it was. Thanks for the tip! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 10:28:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Did you guys ever find a source for any TIL306's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519152712.45865.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 18 May 2003, Jim Pruitt wrote: > > > I ran across your message at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html > > about the TIL306. Did you or Toth ever find any TIL306's? I am also > > looking for some (8 of them to be exact) and like you and Toth have > > been able to find several TIL311's but no TIL306's. > > Jim, > > I'm afraid I haven't been able to locate a supplier for them. I did > however end up in contact with Randy Gill , who's > company is making new TIL311s. He told me he could have TIL306/307/308s > made if there were enough demand, probably at least 1000-2000 units a > year. I have a pair of their CMOS TIL311 replacements - very nice. The body is made of darker red-plastic than some of the originals, so they are easier to read in bright ambient light if you don't have a red filter over them. In case anyone can't find real 311s for $2.50 each (the occasional eBay price), the Innocor parts are $8.00 each, new from stock, one tube minimum order. Considering that vendors who stock the TIL311 routinely charge $10-$15 each for them, it's not a bad price, especially if you need more than a couple... eBay is OK for a few here and there, but for commercial use (like this ISA POST card I have with a pair of them), a known supply is frequently more valuable than saving a few bucks a unit. Unfortunately, I doubt there'd be as much demand for TIL306s or any of the other variants. I honestly didn't know there were parts with counters, etc., until this thread started. -ethan P.S. - I did discover that one of my 1975-vintage parts is defective - it's from some kind of industrial display unit with a NS 8073 driving four of them through an 8255 - kinda looks like a panel VOM or timer. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon May 19 10:35:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Painted chassis (was: Re: Removing duct tape residue.) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030517075935.46f7a738@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517075935.46f7a738@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Joe wrote: > At 10:01 PM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: > > > I guess you could say these have a pebble finish. The texture is > > pretty fine and you don't notice it right away. I have a bead blasting > > cabinet, but the metal underneath the paint is smooth. I guess the > > texture is only part of the paint. > > Correct. They call it splatter paint or something like that. It has > lumps in it and you spray it on that way. I guess the size of the lumps > control the size of the bumps in the finish. I used to work in a paint > and body shop and we used the stuff to re-pain the insides of trunks of > 60s and 70s cars that had that finish. The stuff they used left a > greyish finish with large spots and streaks of very dark color. > > You can sandblast or bead plastic the base material (metal or plastic) > and then paint over it and get a rough finish but it will have holes and > dips in it instead of bumps (pebbles) so it's not the same. It sounds like the best thing I can do for now is leave it alone until I can find out what kind of paint to use. I wouldn't mind repainting it, but I don't want to mess it up. I have a number of these units, and would like to preserve a consistent look. Since the thread is already on the subject of paints... How difficult would it be to touch up scratch damage on a painted metal chassis? Specifically, I'd like to repair some transit damage on a SGI IRIS 1400, which has an off-white lightly textured paint. The paint differs from the drive chassis that has sharpie marks, in that the paint on the SGI is very hard (and easier to chip/scratch) and the texture is much more coarse. Also like the drive chassis, the texture appears to be part of the paint and not the metal. I also have a rack-mount device that was originally painted with a rubber like paint that got "sticky" and made a mess. I've been trying to strip it off of all the metal surfaces so I can repaint it with some regular spray-on paint, but some of the metal is textured. What would be the best way to get that nasty rubberized paint off the metal? The paint came right off the non-textured metal with some paint stripper and a plastic scraper. > > > I see on TV that they now have lasers that can burn off dark spots > > > like freckles and tatoos without burning the lighter color skin > > > around them. I wonder if something like that could be used to burn > > > off dark marker stains without damaging the lighter surrounding > > > area. Yeah I know that kind of equipment is expensive but I wonder > > > if it would work. If so there are some of us that could build their > > > own lasers or modify existing ones. Just an idea. > > > > Thats an idea. That type of equipment turns up at local auctions every > > year or two too. The last time that kind of gear turned up, one guy > > picked up all 3 laser units for a total of $5.00 simply because no one > > else wanted to haul them off. They do tend to be kind of bulky. He > > later told me they worked fine, though one needs a supply of liquid > > helium or liquid nitrogen to operate. Oh, and they use *lots* of > > electricity... > > I've never seen any of that stuff close up. What's the liguid mitrogen > for? These units were all cart-like and had wheels. They were of course older units, and were not very small. I think they averaged about 1-1/2 to 2ft square and about 3ft high. The liquid helium or liquid nitrogen was needed by one of the units to cool part of the laser. The laser levels could be adjusted for different things, and the guy who bought them told me he had no trouble cutting 1/2" steel plate with one of them. Other than that, I don't know too much more about them, but I wish I would have had room so I could have bought them myself ;) -Toth From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 19 11:12:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Removing duct tape residue. Message-ID: <200305191610.JAA02272@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Peter Turnbull" > >On May 16, 15:28, Joe wrote: >> MEK has all but been banned in the US and is just about impossible >for an >> individual to obtain. Besides it EATS plastic! > >I believe it's still commonly used for certain industrial processes. > Yes, it does attack plastic -- that's it's principal use :-) Ditto >for actone. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Hi I used to use it to remove conformal(sp?) coating. It didn't dissolve it but softened it enough to be peeled off. It would have to soak for about ten minutes to even do that. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 19 11:26:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Did you guys ever find a source for any TIL306's? In-Reply-To: <00dd01c31dbf$774d0080$6401a8c0@cl3238048c> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030519120932.0f7f94c2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jim, Yes I finally found a small handfull of 311s at a surplus store. They may have some 306s but they're about 70 miles from here so I don't get there very often. I'll try and remember to look for some the next time that I'm there. Drop me a note in a couple of weeks and remind me. I think I may have a couple of 306s here but I'm in the midst of cleaning some of the piles of parts that I've scrounged and pulling parts and re-arranging my parts cabinents so I can't find them at the moment. What are they used in? Joe At 09:31 PM 5/18/03 -0700, you wrote: >Hello Joe. >I ran across your message at >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html >about the TIL306. Did you or Toth ever find any TIL306's? I am also looking >for some (8 of them to be exact) and like you and Toth have been able to find >several TIL311's but no TIL306's. > >Thank you. > >Jim Pruitt > > > >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html >and >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007252.html >substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? >Joe cctech@classiccmp.org >Mon Jan 6 01:37:30 2003 > > a.. Previous message: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? > b.. Next message: Pinout for EECO Tape Reader? > c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >At 01:18 AM 1/4/03 -0600, you wrote: >> >>I have the datasheet for the 311 in pdf format if you'd like me to email >>it to you. The 311 has a built-in BCD decoder, but not a counter, like the >>306/307. > > I need the counter function but I'd like a copy of the PDF anyway. >> >>> > I'll make a note to check a couple of my local surplus dealers over >>> > the next few weeks. If I find any TIL306 displays, I'll pick them up. >>> > Should I also hunt for any 307s? >>> >>> 306's or 307s will work equally well. The one difference between them is >>> that one has the decimal point to the left of the digit and the other >>> has the dp on the right. My unit doesn't use the decimal points so >>> either display will work fine. >> >>Ok, thats what I wanted to be sure of. Often devices didn't use the >>decimal points, but I didn't want to assume that was the case. >> >>> > If all else fails, would it be possible to salvage your displays? I've >>> > carefully ground back ceramic and plastic on other dip components to >>> > attach replacement leads in the past, but it isn't a fun task... >>> >>> It's possible but all the leads on them are weak and I'd probably have >>> to eventually replace ALL the leads. >> >>Been there, done that. I have a pile of early 74244s and other 7400 series >>logic chips that have nearly nothing left of their leads due to the foam >>that were stored in for roughly 15-20 years. > > Same here. I squirreled away a lot of parts over the years but found that >many of them were damaged due to the foam. Fortunately I've get some pretty >good scrap sources and I've been finding lots of military grade cards with >socketed ICs in the last couple of years so I've been picking them up and >pulling the ICs and storing them in parts cabinets. I've amassed a huge stock >in just the last year. I was also lucky last year and picked up a good number >of parts cabinets that have all the drawers made out of anti-static material. >I had been keeping the parts in anti-static foam for AS protestion but now I >don't have to. > > >.Thankfully, the TIL311s and >>most of the other chips that came in the same batch of parts didn't have >>the same problem, though their leads had to be cleaned. > > I have a fair number of 308 and 311 displays that I've pulled from cards >and the local surplus place has plenty of them but the 306/307s seem to be >scarce. > > Joe > > >> >>-Toth >> > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > > > a.. Previous message: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? > b.. Next message: Pinout for EECO Tape Reader? > c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 19 11:27:58 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Did you guys ever find a source for any TIL306's? In-Reply-To: <00dd01c31dbf$774d0080$6401a8c0@cl3238048c> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030519120932.0f7f092c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jim, Yes I finally found a small handfull of 311s at a surplus store. They may have some 306s but they're about 70 miles from here so I don't get there very often. I'll try and remember to look for some the next time that I'm there. Drop me a note in a couple of weeks and remind me. I think I may have a couple of 306s here but I'm in the midst of cleaning some of the piles of parts that I've scrounged and pulling parts and re-arranging my parts cabinents so I can't find them at the moment. What are they used in? Joe At 09:31 PM 5/18/03 -0700, you wrote: >Hello Joe. >I ran across your message at >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html >about the TIL306. Did you or Toth ever find any TIL306's? I am also looking >for some (8 of them to be exact) and like you and Toth have been able to find >several TIL311's but no TIL306's. > >Thank you. > >Jim Pruitt > > > >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007306.html >and >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-January/007252.html >substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? >Joe cctech@classiccmp.org >Mon Jan 6 01:37:30 2003 > > a.. Previous message: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? > b.. Next message: Pinout for EECO Tape Reader? > c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >At 01:18 AM 1/4/03 -0600, you wrote: >> >>I have the datasheet for the 311 in pdf format if you'd like me to email >>it to you. The 311 has a built-in BCD decoder, but not a counter, like the >>306/307. > > I need the counter function but I'd like a copy of the PDF anyway. >> >>> > I'll make a note to check a couple of my local surplus dealers over >>> > the next few weeks. If I find any TIL306 displays, I'll pick them up. >>> > Should I also hunt for any 307s? >>> >>> 306's or 307s will work equally well. The one difference between them is >>> that one has the decimal point to the left of the digit and the other >>> has the dp on the right. My unit doesn't use the decimal points so >>> either display will work fine. >> >>Ok, thats what I wanted to be sure of. Often devices didn't use the >>decimal points, but I didn't want to assume that was the case. >> >>> > If all else fails, would it be possible to salvage your displays? I've >>> > carefully ground back ceramic and plastic on other dip components to >>> > attach replacement leads in the past, but it isn't a fun task... >>> >>> It's possible but all the leads on them are weak and I'd probably have >>> to eventually replace ALL the leads. >> >>Been there, done that. I have a pile of early 74244s and other 7400 series >>logic chips that have nearly nothing left of their leads due to the foam >>that were stored in for roughly 15-20 years. > > Same here. I squirreled away a lot of parts over the years but found that >many of them were damaged due to the foam. Fortunately I've get some pretty >good scrap sources and I've been finding lots of military grade cards with >socketed ICs in the last couple of years so I've been picking them up and >pulling the ICs and storing them in parts cabinets. I've amassed a huge stock >in just the last year. I was also lucky last year and picked up a good number >of parts cabinets that have all the drawers made out of anti-static material. >I had been keeping the parts in anti-static foam for AS protestion but now I >don't have to. > > >.Thankfully, the TIL311s and >>most of the other chips that came in the same batch of parts didn't have >>the same problem, though their leads had to be cleaned. > > I have a fair number of 308 and 311 displays that I've pulled from cards >and the local surplus place has plenty of them but the 306/307s seem to be >scarce. > > Joe > > >> >>-Toth >> > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > > > a.. Previous message: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? > b.. Next message: Pinout for EECO Tape Reader? > c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 19 11:29:41 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Painted chassis (was: Re: Removing duct tape residue.) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20030517075935.46f7a738@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517075935.46f7a738@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030519122400.48c7721e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:42 AM 5/19/03 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 17 May 2003, Joe wrote: >> At 10:01 PM 5/16/03 -0500, you wrote: >> >> > I guess you could say these have a pebble finish. The texture is >> > pretty fine and you don't notice it right away. I have a bead blasting >> > cabinet, but the metal underneath the paint is smooth. I guess the >> > texture is only part of the paint. >> >> Correct. They call it splatter paint or something like that. It has >> lumps in it and you spray it on that way. I guess the size of the lumps >> control the size of the bumps in the finish. I used to work in a paint >> and body shop and we used the stuff to re-pain the insides of trunks of >> 60s and 70s cars that had that finish. The stuff they used left a >> greyish finish with large spots and streaks of very dark color. >> >> You can sandblast or bead plastic the base material (metal or plastic) >> and then paint over it and get a rough finish but it will have holes and >> dips in it instead of bumps (pebbles) so it's not the same. > >It sounds like the best thing I can do for now is leave it alone until I >can find out what kind of paint to use. I wouldn't mind repainting it, but >I don't want to mess it up. I have a number of these units, and would like >to preserve a consistent look. > >Since the thread is already on the subject of paints... > >How difficult would it be to touch up scratch damage on a painted metal >chassis? It shouldn't be difficult at all if you have a decent paint gun and a GOOD compressor. Specifically, I'd like to repair some transit damage on a SGI >IRIS 1400, which has an off-white lightly textured paint. The paint >differs from the drive chassis that has sharpie marks, in that the paint >on the SGI is very hard (and easier to chip/scratch) and the texture is >much more coarse. Also like the drive chassis, the texture appears to be >part of the paint and not the metal. Again, I would suggest taking it to an automotive paint supplier and letting them see if they can match the color an texture. I'm sure they can match the color and I expect that they can match the texture as well. If you're not handy with a paint gun then you could even take it to a paint shop and have them do it. I had one piece repaired that way. They kind of chuckled when I first brought it in but eventually painted it for me for $12. (that was a long time ago!) > >I also have a rack-mount device that was originally painted with a rubber >like paint that got "sticky" and made a mess. I've seen stuff like that. I'm not sure what it was but I expect that it might be an epoxy paint that didn't get mixed properly. Some of that stuff can be a real B*****D to get off! If you can't strip it with paint stripper, MEK or something like that you might try taking it to someone that has a tank where they dip and strip furniture. If that doesn't get it off then you're probably stuck with it. I've been trying to strip it >off of all the metal surfaces so I can repaint it with some regular >spray-on paint, but some of the metal is textured. What would be the best >way to get that nasty rubberized paint off the metal? The paint came right >off the non-textured metal with some paint stripper and a plastic scraper. > >> > > I see on TV that they now have lasers that can burn off dark spots >> > > like freckles and tatoos without burning the lighter color skin >> > > around them. I wonder if something like that could be used to burn >> > > off dark marker stains without damaging the lighter surrounding >> > > area. Yeah I know that kind of equipment is expensive but I wonder >> > > if it would work. If so there are some of us that could build their >> > > own lasers or modify existing ones. Just an idea. >> > >> > Thats an idea. That type of equipment turns up at local auctions every >> > year or two too. The last time that kind of gear turned up, one guy >> > picked up all 3 laser units for a total of $5.00 simply because no one >> > else wanted to haul them off. They do tend to be kind of bulky. He >> > later told me they worked fine, though one needs a supply of liquid >> > helium or liquid nitrogen to operate. Oh, and they use *lots* of >> > electricity... >> >> I've never seen any of that stuff close up. What's the liguid mitrogen >> for? > >These units were all cart-like and had wheels. They were of course older >units, and were not very small. I think they averaged about 1-1/2 to 2ft >square and about 3ft high. The liquid helium or liquid nitrogen was needed >by one of the units to cool part of the laser. The laser levels could be >adjusted for different things, and the guy who bought them told me he had >no trouble cutting 1/2" steel plate with one of them. Other than that, I >don't know too much more about them, but I wish I would have had room so I >could have bought them myself ;) Yeah. Sounds like a NEAT toy! Joe > >-Toth From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Mon May 19 11:44:00 2003 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Can anyone tellme why a Name plate goes for over $135 In-Reply-To: <020701c31d66$0eae9ce0$460cdd40@oemcomputer> from "Keys" at May 18, 2003 12:51:04 PM Message-ID: <200305191643.h4JGh5jP027124@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> "Keys" says: > >This Apple II name plate sold for over $135 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2729182422 > Considering it's an Apple II nameplate and is unused, as a collector I can understand why. To begin with it's for the Apple II, the original model sold from '77-'79. Not any of the much more commonly seen Apple II's (Apple II+, IIE, IIE platinum). The poster who sarcastically mentioned ripping off his faceplate to sell may not have noticed this. Secondly, it's mint and unused, which to someone who's serious about collecting and (in many cases as is needed in this hobby) restoring a computer, something like that is a true gem to find. Marty From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 19 11:51:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC Message-ID: >I've got 2 IIgs' here, a ROM 00 one signed by the man himself and a ROM 03 >one. This means I only need a Shiva bridge....:) *hint to Mike Ford :o))* Do you not have access to a Mac built before the switch to USB? If you do, just use the serial localtalk port on it and skip using a bridge entirely, unless you have some reason that you need to go to Ethernet with the IIgs. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 19 12:19:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Can anyone tellme why a Name plate goes for over $135 In-Reply-To: <200305191643.h4JGh5jP027124@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 2003, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > Considering it's an Apple II nameplate and is unused, as a collector I can > understand why. To begin with it's for the Apple II, the original > model sold from '77-'79. Not any of the much more commonly seen Apple > II's (Apple II+, IIE, IIE platinum). The poster who sarcastically > mentioned ripping off his faceplate to sell may not have noticed this. > Secondly, it's mint and unused, which to someone who's serious about > collecting and (in many cases as is needed in this hobby) restoring a > computer, something like that is a true gem to find. This may be so for other folks, but I'm a big fan of Apple ]['s but I just don't see it. I can't remember ever seeing an Apple ][ lid that was missing it's nameplate, and having a flawless nameplate is not worth $135 to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 19 12:58:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Painted chassis (was: Re: Removing duct tape residue.) References: <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030515225326.3cef332e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20030517075935.46f7a738@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EC91A2F.2070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 2003, Joe wrote: > Since the thread is already on the subject of paints... > > How difficult would it be to touch up scratch damage on a painted metal > chassis? Specifically, I'd like to repair some transit damage on a SGI > IRIS 1400, which has an off-white lightly textured paint. The paint > differs from the drive chassis that has sharpie marks, in that the paint > on the SGI is very hard (and easier to chip/scratch) and the texture is > much more coarse. Also like the drive chassis, the texture appears to be > part of the paint and not the metal. > Have you checked with your local model hobby shop for paints? Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 19 13:01:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Since when is a Sage small? > > I thought these were in the 6'x3'10' class. > We're obviously talking about different things: > http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/pictures/sage-ii-large.jpg There have been more than one machine named Sage. Is yours larger or smaller than a Simon? From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 19 13:19:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Running PCs on 12v Message-ID: <200305191816.LAA02355@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Allain" > >Here's a pretty damn dumb question. > Can 5v regulators just be stacked up to get > more than 100mA? > One possibility is that the weakest one would > go first, then the rest after it's dead. > >John A. > Hi John There are ways to parallel these but most cause either loss of voltage regulation or current hogging. The the TO-220 packages are designed to handle 1 amp but for any of these, you need to consider heat sinking and total power drop. You may find that power drop will over load before current is reached. Most newer regulators are designed to both thermal and current shutdown safely. Like anything that is being stressed, running like this for a long time tends to shorten their life. Also, paralleling can cause oscillations. Especially if not all the regulators are running near their maximum levels. Proper bypassing is more critical when doing this. Dwight From kempfj2 at rpi.edu Mon May 19 13:23:01 2003 From: kempfj2 at rpi.edu (Jesse Kempf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: VAX 6000 H405-E outputs Message-ID: Hey, I'm trying to diagnose and fix my VAX 6000, which seems to have rather nasty power-supply problems. Specifically, I need to know what voltages come out of the H405-E. I know about the 208VAC phase-to-phase from the circular plug on the back. I need to know what the other jacks output, specifically the mate-n-lock ones. I'd appreciate it if anyone could probe around a 6000 with a multimeter and get back to me. Cheers, Jesse Kempf Tender, Ye Olde Foo Bar, and Grill. Tamer of Unices and VAXen. Electrical Engineering Major Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Microsoft programmers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 13:25:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519182433.56602.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- vance@neurotica.com wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 2003, Witchy wrote: > > > > It won't run NetBSD. It uses a terminal and runs software specific > > > to the infoserver... > > Don't bother. Just get the InfoServer software and use it as "god > intended". 8-) > > The device is quite useful in and of itself. Hear, hear. I'd _love_ to have one to share between my DEC 4000 and my VAXen. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 19 13:30:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Writing single density disks on a PC? Message-ID: <200305191828.LAA02364@clulw009.amd.com> >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > >Ok, I want ot generate some disks for my Model 4 on my PC, BUT some of the >disks I want to regenerate are mixed single and double density ... any >suggestions? > Hi Geoff If it is done a track at a time, you can deal with it by using the low level disk access functions of the BIOS. You do have to have a disk controller that supports single density ( not all do ). There are a few articles around that describe setting up the DMA ( needed for floppies ) and the disk controller, as another option. I've found this method to sometimes be machine dependent so if you can get by with the standard BIOS calls, that is a better way. If you can read Forth, I can send you some code I wrote to write tracks for my Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 machine ). I don't have a controller that does track 0 that is single density but you can get the idea of how to handle the controller and DMA. The other tracks are double density ( 360K drives ). You also need a compatible drive. You can't use a 1.2M drive to write single density at all and double density is not properly done so it will most likely fail to read reliably( a track width issue ). It may also be that your machine is supported by things like 22DISK. Have you tried this? Dwight From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 19 13:39:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer Message-ID: <200305191837.LAA02368@clulw009.amd.com> Hi When they change to newer models, they drop all support for the older ones. Even DataI/O supports some of the older ones for a while. But then, you pay for that support( a bit steep for hobiest but in reason for a company ). I have a Stag that I've always meant to play with but I've just been to lazy. I have other programmers that I can use. Dwight >From: Joe > > I have a Stag 39M100 with one plug-in for programming EPROMs and another >for programming embedded micro-processors. I found the docs for it on a >site in France. Stag is utterly worthless when it comes to support. I'll >never buy or recommend anything from them. Glen G has a bigger gang >programmer and I think he has a real manual for it. > > Joe > >At 07:29 PM 5/16/03 +0100, you wrote: >>At 09:50 15/05/2003 +0100, Witchy wrote: >> >>>Made by STAG in 1984, it's got a model number of PP16A and features a socket >>>for a cartridge containing the master EPROM and a module containing 16 EPROM >>>sockets for new EPROMS, so obviously you feed it a master and it makes up to >>>16 copies. >>> >>>Under the hood it's actually a 6809 based micro with 2K RAM and the board >>>has holes ready for 2 COMM sockets, so does anyone remember these beasts? >>>It'd be great if I could add on the serial ports and talk to it using a >>>PeeCee for making ROM backups >> >> >>I remember these being in use at Ferranti, when I was an apprentice there >>about 20 years ago .. (so age fits!) AFAICR we only ever used them in >>stand-alone mode as a bulk copier. They were also RENTED, from Livingston >>Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so there may be >>a chance you can find some old docs from them. >> >>Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 19 14:02:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Writing single density disks on a PC? In-Reply-To: <200305191828.LAA02364@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > >Ok, I want ot generate some disks for my Model 4 on my PC, BUT some of the > >disks I want to regenerate are mixed single and double density ... any > >suggestions? On Mon, 19 May 2003, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > If it is done a track at a time, you can deal with it > by using the low level disk access functions of the BIOS. To do either single density, or the special data address marks, you will have to go below the BIOS level (13, 1E). not especially hard to do, but there can be a few minor portability issues. > You do have to have a disk controller that supports > single density ( not all do ). There are a few articles look for the 37C65 chip; but there are some others, and even the stock 5150 FDC board can be MODIFIED for SD. > around that describe setting up the DMA ( needed for floppies ) > and the disk controller, as another option. I've found > this method to sometimes be machine dependent so if > you can get by with the standard BIOS calls, that is > a better way. > If you can read Forth, I can send you some code I wrote > to write tracks for my Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 machine ). > I don't have a controller that does track 0 that is > single density but you can get the idea of how to handle > the controller and DMA. The other tracks are double > density ( 360K drives ). You also need a compatible > drive. You can't use a 1.2M drive to write single density > at all and double density is not properly done so > it will most likely fail to read reliably( a track width > issue ). > It may also be that your machine is supported by things > like 22DISK. Have you tried this? Try Hypercross/PC-Xzap from Hypersoft. I'd like to hear from anybody who has SUCCESSFULLY used 22DISK for anything other than CP/M, or used ANY commercial product for SD. Yes, Catweasel or Option board THEORETICALLY could do it. Posters about any product that "can do it", but don't differentiate between "CAN DO" and HYPOTHETICAL POSSIBILITY can go F themseves. (During the life of my products, I constantly competed with rumored, but non-existent, capabilities of some products) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 19 14:08:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: MEK In-Reply-To: vance@neurotica.com "Re: MEK" (May 18, 10:58) References: Message-ID: <10305192005.ZM28989@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 10:58, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > Isn't MEK a carcinogen? (Unlike HCl or Acetone...) Not that I know of. See, for example, http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/2-butanone.html Lots of other common (or once-common) solvents are, though. Compare 111-TCE, toluene, carbon tetrachloride, ... http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/TR/1,1,1-trichloroethane.html http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/TO/toluene.html http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CA/carbon_tetrachloride.html On May 18, 15:51, Jon Titus wrote: > To remove the residue from non-water-soluble adhesives left behind by > masking tape, labels, duct tape, electrical tape, etc., I've used xylene or > xylol with good results. Not a good choice. It used to be a constituent of thinners for cellulose paints, but now it's not allowed to be sold in normal hardware stores over here, for a variety of reasons (and most cellulose paints have been replaced by safer alternatives). http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/XY/o-xylene.html Anyway, it's more drastic than you need. Turpentine substitute is slower, but works on much the same things, and won't harm plastics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Mon May 19 14:11:01 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: A little OT:Interesting case for a PowerBook 5300... Message-ID: <3EC92B12.C523A292@comcast.net> Yeah, this is kinda OT, but still interesting... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=171&item=2729209921 -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 19 14:13:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "RE: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer" (May 19, 10:27) References: Message-ID: <10305192011.ZM29000@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 19, 10:27, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > > Behalf Of Rob O'Donnell > > I remember these being in use at Ferranti, when I was an apprentice there > > about 20 years ago .. (so age fits!) AFAICR we only ever used them in > > stand-alone mode as a bulk copier. They were also RENTED, from > > Livingston > > Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so > > there may be a chance you can find some old docs from them. > > Is that these people? Yes, same company. I've occasionally hired specialist test equipment from them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Mon May 19 15:25:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Writing single density disks on a PC? Message-ID: <200305192024.NAA02437@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > >Try Hypercross/PC-Xzap from Hypersoft. >I'd like to hear from anybody who has SUCCESSFULLY used 22DISK for Hi Fred I tried 22DISK for my M20 but it didn't work. The tables were wrong, as well as that my computer didn't deal with single density. Since it had no way of ignoring track 0, easily, I gave up on it. I found that the single density, on track zero, was solved by using the M20 to pre-format the disk and then used my routines to write the double density stuff to the remaining tracks. If Geoff has the same issue, he might be able to deal with the single density the same way. I found that the first track being single density was just a boot compatability issue. The first track would just have enough code to switch to double density and then the main loader was on track 1. This meant that the code was basically the same on all of the track zero's. I'd forgotten that the BIOS wouldn't deal with the single density. I was thinking more in terms of number and size of sectors. Dwight >anything other than CP/M, or used ANY commercial product for SD. >Yes, Catweasel or Option board THEORETICALLY could do it. >Posters about any product that "can do it", but don't differentiate >between "CAN DO" and HYPOTHETICAL POSSIBILITY can go F themseves. >(During the life of my products, I constantly competed with rumored, >but non-existent, capabilities of some products) From vance at neurotica.com Mon May 19 15:28:00 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Got a RS6000 model 250. It had the key in the switch which I > > > understand is a good thing. Is this computer worth keeping? > > > > It's kinda slow. PowerPC 601 at 66 or 80 MHz. Uses ECC PPD 72-pin > > SIMM's. The "lower" model in the 7011-series, the RS/6000 > > POWERstation 220 actually outruns it in most thing running a POWER at > > 33MHz. > > IMHO it's not too bad. I've noticed it does seem to boot AIX faster > than the 220; if you're not doing 64bit stuff, it's a fair amount > faster, since it's just a 32bit proc not a 64bit one. The POWER is 32-bit. But for anything with FP in it, the POWER will stomp all over the 601. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 19 15:29:40 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Cavri Systems (was: RE: Leaving the hobby) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Merle K. Peirce > Sent: 19 May 2003 00:24 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby > > > Pete, you and Tony have been very helpful. The board seems the only > piece of the system that has survived, and completely out of context. > > > On Sun, 18 May 2003, Peter Turnbull wrote: > > > > > Sounds like some kind of interface to connect a computer, a monitor, > > and a LaserVision player (or some similar device). Such systems were > > used for training systems using video clips and stills. I remember > > Jaguar using such a system in the mid-eighties; they shipped one to > > each Jaguar dealer in the UK, with training disks for the vehicle > > technicians -- but those were PC-based, with Pioneer LaserVision > > players and fancy Sony monitors. CAV probably means Constant Angular > > Velocity; which is what is used on LaserVision disks designed for > > random access, especially picking out individual frames. The > > Magnecraft devices are DIL reed relays, possibly for video switching. > > If it doesn't have much else on it, I'd guess it doen't do any > > genlocking. > > > > Sorry, no idea what computer it fits. > > I've only been able to find USENET postings about Cavri Systems, and they all relate to videodisc stuff. One posting is a 'for sale' item which has a Cavri card amongst a bunch of Apple stuff, so it would seem its a laservision interface for an Apple II. I'm sure I've got one somewhere too......the name leapt out at me as soon as I saw it..... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 19 15:31:20 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of chris > Sent: 18 May 2003 15:16 > To: Classic Computers > Subject: RE: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC > > > >Meep! I can do all of that apart from the LocalTalk bridge and the > >Workstation card, > > The localtalk bridge isn't needed if you are going to a mac that supports > Localtalk directly Basically, anything after the 128 and before the iMac. > The 128 doesn't have built in localtalk support IIRC, and the iMac and > later don't have serial ports to the bridge is needed to connect to their > Ethernet ports for Ethertalk. > > If you don't have a workstation card for the II, it will probably be > cheaper/easier to get a Rom 3 IIgs and use the built in localtalk on that. Excellent, that means I have everything here including the network cables. thanks guys'n'gals! -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon May 19 17:35:00 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030516192645.02cf8e60@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030519232055.02dc4520@pop.freeserve.net> At 10:27 19/05/2003 +0100, Witchy wrote: >Hi Rob, > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > I remember these being in use at Ferranti, when I was an apprentice there > > about 20 years ago .. (so age fits!) AFAICR we only ever used them in > > stand-alone mode as a bulk copier. They were also RENTED, from > > Livingston > > Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so > > there may be a chance you can find some old docs from them. > >Is that these people? > >http://www.livingston.co.uk > >They mention equipment rental under their 'computer products' section..... > >cheers It would appear to be: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:S_qVjwwo7t4J:www.livingston.com/forum2/showtopic.php%3Fthreadid%3D9+livingston+hire&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 As to whether they keep hold of old docs, I have no idea... Rob From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 19 18:07:01 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Data transfer from Apple ][ to PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030519155026.00a3eb20@pop-server.socal.rr.com> >I've got 2 IIgs' here, a ROM 00 one signed by the man himself and a ROM 03 >one. This means I only need a Shiva bridge....:) *hint to Mike Ford :o))* > >cheers > >-- >adrian/witchy >www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum >www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans Just remind me and next time I come to the UK I will bring one. ;) It shouldn't be more than a year or so, and would be worth it just for the explaining what it is at the airport. From mark at ecl.us Mon May 19 18:19:00 2003 From: mark at ecl.us (Mark Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Seeking Surplus Places, Portland area In-Reply-To: <200305140311.h4E3BBrI017651@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200305140311.h4E3BBrI017651@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <1053386285.6338.9.camel@Glass> On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 20:11, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Could you please forward the info to me? I've no idea where on earth they > are these days, or when they're open. I'm not even sure my Dad knows, I > seem to remember some vague answer from him on the subject a while back. > The Tektronix RAMS Company Store is located in the basement of building 38 on the main Tekronix campus in Beaverton. Go around to the loading dock. Hours are 2 to 4:30 PM on Mondays for the general public. Line is well formed by 2PM so get there early if you want to join the rush. They have lots of electronics parts at sometimes not so good prices, computers (mostly PC's) components, used and broken test equipment, furniture and misc. Today I managed to pick up four Tektronix XP419C X windows servers for $15 to add to the two that I already have running. If anyone feels the need for one let me know. Couldn't resist picking them up. Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 18:44:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Sage-II In-Reply-To: <10305190803.ZM28372@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Peter Turnbull" at May 19, 3 08:03:00 am Message-ID: > I don't remember exactly what's on the disks, but essentialy the two > dsks differ only in the VDU setup, and I suspect they're not a complete > p-System with all the extras. Probably the editor and compiler, etc > but not much more. It's probably possible to copy the > non-system-specific parts from another system, though. Probably. Thing is, the only other P-system I have is for the Apple ][, which (a) doesn't include a 68000 assembler and (b) has GCR-encoded disks. Not an ideal solution. Unfortunately the user manual I have doesn't say how many disks were supplied with the machine, but as it appears you got both Fortran and Pascal, I doubt it all fitted on one floppy... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 18:47:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: PERQ 1 In-Reply-To: <008f01c31df2$678eaa80$0e00a8c0@PLATINUM> from "PurpleT3K" at May 19, 3 11:34:52 am Message-ID: > Hi > > I recently acquired a Three Rivers Computer PERQ 1, together > with PNX - a unix style OS. Unfortunately in the previous move > the PERQ HD was not locked - so the HD needs reformatting. Let's hope that's all it needs. It's always possible that one of the heads or platters has been damaged so badly that the drive can't be recovered... > > Does anyone have the formatter software (on 8" disk) for this > machine - I understand it wasnt distributed with the OS. AFAIK the low-lrvrl disk tools were never distributed at all. But they have survived... Bob (Davis) : I am rather too busy at the moment to deal with this, and it is fairly urgent (he's told me in private e-mail he needs to get it fixed in a couple of weeks). Can you make a copy of the appropriate disks? > > I have a PNX boot disk - but no POS so would need a bootable > POS disk with the formatter on to get the system up and > running. > Well, you need a POS boot disk, and you need the disk tools. They don't _have_ to be the same disk.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 18:48:45 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089B6@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> from "Hills, Paul" at May 19, 3 01:12:31 pm Message-ID: > That's sort of what I was thinking of. Of course, as you say, it is ZX81 > specific. > > Were these home computer tape format's standardised in any way, or at least Not at _all_ Just about every manufacturer did it his own way... > based on an older standard? I seem to remember a format called > "Cottis-Blandford" from years ago. Am I right in saying that most home I thought the common one was 'Kansas City', but that was not common on UK home computers (the BBC micro was perhaps the closest to it). > computer's tape data format was 1200Hz and 2400Hz for logic 0 and 1 (maybe No! Some did, many didn't. What's worse is that some manufacturers used a constant time for each bit (so that one state was a single cycle of 1200 Hz, the other was 2 cycles of 2400 Hz, say), but many other manufacturers used a single cycle at each frequency for the 2 states. This means the bit rate is not even constant... > the other way round). How many stop/start & parity bits (and possibly more > control bits) are sent may be computer-specific I guess. However, a reasonable quality digital audio recording of these old tapes might well be enough to preserver them (you could play it back to a real tape, or directly into the home computer). It's not an efficient way to store the data, but it's better than losing it totally. -tony From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon May 19 19:17:00 2003 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Dryer outlets and Thyristors References: Message-ID: <000101c31e65$52dbe9e0$7f00a8c0@midorirose.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "John Allain" Cc: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Dryer outlets and Thyristors > On Fri, 16 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > > > I was considering picking up a VAX 6000-610, let me rephrase > > that, I was considering moving a VAX 6000 to my garage, > > somehow, and... I remember an extensive discussion a while > > back about getting Gunther's and perhaps other peoples VAXen > > to work on house power. > > > > Can someone supply a summary of how do do so? A pointer to > > an "eureka" email would suffice if one exists since I have a pretty > > good classiccmp archive here. > > All you do is to hook the two live leads from the dryer plug to the three > live terminals on the 3-phase plug on the VAX. What I mean is that you > hook phase 1 live and phase 3 live to one live leg of the dryer plug, and > phase 2 to the other live leg. Then you hook neutral to neutral, ground > to ground, and plug it in. Then you're good to go. It's been a while since I tamed my VAX 6320, but ISTR that it can be as easy as taping off one of the three hot legs on the power cord and feeding the other two with 220V-- it's a full-wave rectifier on the other end. You might lose power to part of the internal accessory power strip, though. > > Peace... Sridhar Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 19 21:51:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Writing single density disks on a PC? In-Reply-To: <200305192024.NAA02437@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 2003, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Fred > I tried 22DISK for my M20 but it didn't work. The tables > were wrong, as well as that my computer didn't deal > with single density. Since it had no way of ignoring > track 0, easily, I gave up on it. > I found that the single density, > on track zero, was solved by using the M20 to pre-format > the disk and then used my routines to write the double > density stuff to the remaining tracks. If Geoff has the > same issue, he might be able to deal with the single > density the same way. I found that the first track > being single density was just a boot compatability issue. > The first track would just have enough code to switch > to double density and then the main loader was on > track 1. This meant that the code was basically the > same on all of the track zero's. > I'd forgotten that the BIOS wouldn't deal with the > single density. I was thinking more in terms of number > and size of sectors. > Dwight Some chips such as the 37C65 handled single density internally, and if you spoke directly to the FDC, you could create appropriate commands. But the BIOS (13, 1E) were locked in to MFM. There were a few disk controller boards for the PC and XT that could do single density, but often they used mutually incompatible additional ports and commands to switch, naking it unfeasable to handle them in a commercial product. ("your product supports Maynard, how come it won't work with my Vista controller, which is 'just like it'") For a NON-commercial product, it could be done without too much hassle. However, since the goal in THIS case was TRS-80 Model 4, it might be feasable to use Trakcess on the TRS-80 to do the job. From loedman1 at juno.com Mon May 19 22:45:00 2003 From: loedman1 at juno.com (loedman1@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Leaving the hobby Message-ID: <20030519.204239.-85965.1.loedman1@juno.com> R. D. Davis provided this good advice (from experience ?) >And, let's not forget to insist that the judge address you as "your >royal holiness of technology preservation." Refuse to address the >court without being bowed to. Insist that the judge, and everyone >else, who doesn't collect computers, waits for the royal wave from you >before they speak. Lastly, when asked any computer-related questions, >insist that you be allowed to consult your followers and members of >your extended royal family, the classiccmp group. If they attempt to >charge you with contempt of court, plead permanent insanity (remember, >insanity is a good thing). When they try to cart you away to the >funny farm, claim that you're not mentally unstable, just eccentric, >but not crazy like everyone else who doesn't preserve vast quantities >of computers. Swear on the Weeks and James book "Eccentrics," and a >stack of holy 7th Edition UNIX source code, that it's the truth. ;-) To which Rich (who never learned when to remain silent) replied This could work as long as I was careful not to quote any CP/M commands, " Yes your Honor, pip pip findbad movcpm. And furthermore, alias sub and era", one way ticket to 72 hours observation. Rich From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 20 02:45:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Help this guy? Message-ID: Can someone help this guy? See below. Please send any help messages to . ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer Festival To: OBERT L. NORDIN Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 18:24 Subject: Re: SOFTWARE > > Hi Obert. > > I just realized I never responded to this message. I apologize for that. > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, OBERT L. NORDIN wrote: > > > Do you have any information on the software WPS-PC by EXCEPTIONAL > > BUSINESS SOLUTIONS no longer in existence? I emulates Digital Equipment > > Company's WPS-8 Word Processing Software on personal computers. > > I'm sorry I don't. Do you need to convert some word processor files in > that format? > > > Also, do you have any information on CompuAdd Computer Company's 325TX > > Notebook? I'm trying to find the location of the notebook's C-MOS > > Battery. > > Again, I don't. Have you opened it up yet to search inside? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:04:47 -0500 From: OBERT L. NORDIN To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: SOFTWARE Thank you for your response. Answers to your questions in regard to my inquiry are:- #1) Concerning WPS-PC I was trying to locate a source for that software. As I recall it could be better than DEC's (Digital Equipment Company, now Compaq/HP) "WPS-PLUS PC". #2) I have opened the CompuAdd 325TX and can't find anything looking like a C-MOS battery! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cheri-post at web.de Tue May 20 03:47:01 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <200305200845.h4K8jfQ02147@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Nice to know, that the possibility is given to connect my PDP11/23 to the internet via TCPware. It uses RSX-11M. Thanx alot for the information ! Pierre cctech@classiccmp.org schrieb am 16.05.03 17:18:30: > > >On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 15:29, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> For the person asking about connecting a PDP-11 to the net: > >> There is TCPware for RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, MicroRSX, and I believe RT-11, > > > >If you have more information about the availability of TCPware for > >RT-11, I would be very interested. > > I've no idea, I know the RSX-11M+ version is still available. I assume if you contacted them they'd sell you a license. I also assume you're a hobbyist, and even if you're not, Alan Baldwin's probably offers more features. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | ____________________________________________________________________________ Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail anmelden = 1qm Regenwald schuetzen! Helfen Sie mit! Nutzen Sie den Serien-Testsieger. http://user.web.de/Regenwald From cheri-post at web.de Tue May 20 03:52:00 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use Message-ID: <200305200850.h4K8olQ17334@mailgate5.cinetic.de> I read that the NASA is now searching for 8086 chips on ebay, as the supply on the market has almost disappeared. Pierre cctech@classiccmp.org schrieb am 16.05.03 17:19:18: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com] > > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:22 AM > > To: Classic Computers > > Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > > > > > > > I am inclined to believe there may still be some ground > > systems for the > > Space Shuttle program that are run on 8080 based machines.2 > > > > I can confirm as a fact that there was at least 1 8086 flying on Columbia > before Feb 1. > > > > ************************************ > If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the > delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may > contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not > copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and > kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this > message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by > nor attributable to ITT. > ************************************ ____________________________________________________________________________ ImmobilienScout24 - ?ber 170.000 Immobilien - Finden Sie hier Ihre neue Traumwohnung! In Immobilien die Nr.1 im Netz: http://info.is24.de/web.de From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 20 10:18:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) Message-ID: Ok you funny talking folks on the upside-down island, you have a job to do: Chips are down for computer museum http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/19/1053196515142.html The Australian Computer Museum Society is about to lose its space and needs 1,000 square meters to move its collection into. They have to find something within 6 weeks because they say it'll take six months to move their collection, and they must be out bu January 1, 2004. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 10:28:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Intel iPDS, IBM 5110 FA Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520112813.446f5358@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Supposed to be working and complete with SW and manuals but located in Belgium :-( He also has an IBM 5110 Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 20 10:29:37 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) References: Message-ID: <002c01c31ee3$54a7d300$0400fea9@game> They should EBAY the duplicates or gut them for spares, that way they wouldnt need the same footprint. For a museium to have many multiples of the same item is a waste of space (which costs money). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 11:13 AM Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) > Ok you funny talking folks on the upside-down island, you have a job to > do: > > Chips are down for computer museum > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/19/1053196515142.html > > The Australian Computer Museum Society is about to lose its space and > needs 1,000 square meters to move its collection into. They have to find > something within 6 weeks because they say it'll take six months to move > their collection, and they must be out bu January 1, 2004. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 10:45:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: Intel iPDS, IBM 5110 FA AND a PDP-8e In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030520112813.446f5358@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520114159.447ff920@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Missed this the first time He also has a Heathkit H-8 and some other interesting toys. Joe At 11:28 AM 5/20/03 +0000, you wrote: > Supposed to be working and complete with SW and manuals but located in >Belgium :-( > > > > He also has an IBM 5110 > > > Joe From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue May 20 10:51:00 2003 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) Message-ID: You've obvoiusly never been in a museum's storeroom. -----Original Message----- From: TeoZ [mailto:teoz@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:20 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) For a museium to have many multiples of the same item is a waste of space (which costs money). From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 20 11:12:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:45 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <002c01c31ee3$54a7d300$0400fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > They should EBAY the duplicates or gut them for spares, that way they > wouldnt need the same footprint. For a museium to have many multiples of the > same item is a waste of space (which costs money). I agree to an extent but I think the reporter doesn't understand computer technology. The article only says they have "10 mainframes" and "60 minicomputers and 50 microcomputers". I suppose if you have an IBM 709 then you don't really need the Univac? And since the Commodore 64, Apple ][ and Atari 800 all use the 6502, 2 of the 3 can go? I think not ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue May 20 11:39:00 2003 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (marian capel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Intel iPDS, IBM 5110 FA AND a PDP-8e In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030520114159.447ff920@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1F29A183-8AE1-11D7-B4FD-000A9585D8F6@bluewin.ch> This chap is selling most of his collection. Also includes a pdp8e. Local pickup only, near Brussels/Belgium. Jos From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 20 11:52:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) References: Message-ID: <004901c31eee$fcf88120$0400fea9@game> The reporter stated that they take all donations instead of having them scrapped, so I figured they have multiples of the common computers/servers/mainframes in that area of the world. 50 micro's dont take up much space, 10 mainframes do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:07 PM Subject: Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) > On Tue, 20 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > They should EBAY the duplicates or gut them for spares, that way they > > wouldnt need the same footprint. For a museium to have many multiples of the > > same item is a waste of space (which costs money). > > I agree to an extent but I think the reporter doesn't understand computer > technology. The article only says they have "10 mainframes" and "60 > minicomputers and 50 microcomputers". I suppose if you have an IBM 709 > then you don't really need the Univac? And since the Commodore 64, Apple > ][ and Atari 800 all use the 6502, 2 of the 3 can go? > > I think not ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rdd at rddavis.org Tue May 20 11:53:40 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered Message-ID: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> It appears that I may have cornered, at least the local, market for 3-1/2" floppies. A recent thrift-shop find was a computer-paper sized box (That is, the size of a box of real computer paper: wide greenbar. Now, hopefully no one is going to ask a question like "what's greenbar?") packed nearly full of, mostly unboxed, and used, floppies. Nothing useful on them, just a bunch of PeeCee software for Windoze, so I don't have to worry about overwriting anything valuable. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 20 12:08:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <008301c31ef1$41ae4f00$0400fea9@game> Any original games on those 3.5's? I generally buy my disks bulk on ebay when I see a bargain. Most of my old 16 bit computers use those rare 3.5 DD disks, found 500 new for $20 once.. should have purchased alot more. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered > It appears that I may have cornered, at least the local, market for > 3-1/2" floppies. A recent thrift-shop find was a computer-paper sized > box (That is, the size of a box of real computer paper: wide greenbar. > Now, hopefully no one is going to ask a question like "what's > greenbar?") packed nearly full of, mostly unboxed, and used, floppies. > Nothing useful on them, just a bunch of PeeCee software for Windoze, > so I don't have to worry about overwriting anything valuable. :-) > > -- > Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 20 12:22:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <004901c31eee$fcf88120$0400fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > The reporter stated that they take all donations instead of having them > scrapped, so I figured they have multiples of the common > computers/servers/mainframes in that area of the world. Oh, well yeah, that makes sense ;) I'm the same way, and just haven't gotten around to performing The Great Cull yet. Soon, though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 20 12:35:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: >box (That is, the size of a box of real computer paper: wide greenbar. >Now, hopefully no one is going to ask a question like "what's >greenbar?") packed nearly full of, mostly unboxed, and used, floppies. What's Greenbar? ;^) Seriously, it wouldn't surprise me if there are a fair number of people here that don't know what you're talking about. Me, I've worked on Mainframes, so am very familiar with what you're talking about. BTW, did anyone ever make 8 1/2x11" tracker-fed greenbar? I'd love to get ahold of a box or two for the LA75 on my PDP-11. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 20 12:38:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) References: Message-ID: <008c01c31ef5$735b7420$0400fea9@game> I try not to have 2 of the same model/type computer, but I have quite a few spare cards for my computers (mostly pc stuff). If I have more then 20 functioning computers of all types I would be surprised. My problem is once I get a machine I have an itch to max it out with all the cards/memory/options available. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) > On Tue, 20 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > The reporter stated that they take all donations instead of having them > > scrapped, so I figured they have multiples of the common > > computers/servers/mainframes in that area of the world. > > Oh, well yeah, that makes sense ;) I'm the same way, and just haven't > gotten around to performing The Great Cull yet. > > Soon, though. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From fernande at internet1.net Tue May 20 12:43:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3ECA68E2.7010100@internet1.net> R. D. Davis wrote: > Now, hopefully no one is going to ask a question like "what's > greenbar?" That's an ice cream bar thats been sitting out for too long, right? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jim at jkearney.com Tue May 20 12:49:00 2003 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 8008 treasure trove Message-ID: <01c601c31ef8$06d486e0$0f01090a@xpace.net> Thanks to the kindness of Mr. Robert Baer, I've just received a fantastic set of 8008-related documents. As I'm able I'll be scanning them and putting them on my 8008 web page http://www.jkearney.com/8008/. The catch includes: - Hal Singer's _Mark-8 (later Micro-8) Newsletter_, vol 1 #1 - vol 2 #6 (1974-1976). All kinds of modifications, programming and war stories about the Mark-8, and later covering the 8080-based computers such as the MITS Altair. - Hal Chamberlin's _The Computer Hobbyist_, #1 - #10 (1974-1976). An 8008 vector CRT display interface design, cassette interface, and an S-100 floppy controller were big topics in these. - The Microsystems International 8008 data book (they were Intel's Canadian second source, in addition to Siemens in Germany), containing not only the data sheet but a complete design and monitor listing for the MOD8 computer. - A number of MOD8 add-on designs from various individuals, including parallel I/O, audio cassette interface, and interfaces to the Suding scientific calculator board from Mini Micro Mart (remember them? There are a couple of their catalogs here too) - (this is not 8008-related, but too good not to mention) An original copy of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC Experimenter's Kit with the 6800 addendum (printed on typewriter paper on a teletype, no less). Unfortunately the IL code interpreter source is no longer with the package. Dr. Pittman has put this on the web, by the way: http://www.sbuniv.edu/~tpittman/IttyBitty/; the copies I have here appear to be identical. Jim From rdd at rddavis.org Tue May 20 13:09:01 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <3ECA68E2.7010100@internet1.net> References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3ECA68E2.7010100@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20030520180852.GD329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Chad Fernandez, from writings of Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:41:54PM -0400: > R. D. Davis wrote: > >Now, hopefully no one is going to ask a question like "what's > >greenbar?" > > That's an ice cream bar thats been sitting out for too long, right? Yes (this answer provided for the benefit of those who pretend to have some knowledge of computers and don't know what greenbar is ;-). ...and as we all know, a box of greenbar paper is a box of special paper, used by the ice-cream companies, for collecting and recycling greenbar. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 13:49:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 8008 treasure trove In-Reply-To: <01c601c31ef8$06d486e0$0f01090a@xpace.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520140708.497771be@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jim, Nice finds! I'm looking forward to seeing them on your site. Joe At 01:48 PM 5/20/03 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks to the kindness of Mr. Robert Baer, I've just received a fantastic >set of 8008-related documents. As I'm able I'll be scanning them and >putting them on my 8008 web page http://www.jkearney.com/8008/. The catch >includes: > >- Hal Singer's _Mark-8 (later Micro-8) Newsletter_, vol 1 #1 - vol 2 #6 >(1974-1976). All kinds of modifications, programming and war stories about >the Mark-8, and later covering the 8080-based computers such as the MITS >Altair. > >- Hal Chamberlin's _The Computer Hobbyist_, #1 - #10 (1974-1976). An 8008 >vector CRT display interface design, cassette interface, and an S-100 floppy >controller were big topics in these. > >- The Microsystems International 8008 data book (they were Intel's Canadian >second source, in addition to Siemens in Germany), containing not only the >data sheet but a complete design and monitor listing for the MOD8 computer. > >- A number of MOD8 add-on designs from various individuals, including >parallel I/O, audio cassette interface, and interfaces to the Suding >scientific calculator board from Mini Micro Mart (remember them? There are >a couple of their catalogs here too) > >- (this is not 8008-related, but too good not to mention) An original copy >of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC Experimenter's Kit with the 6800 addendum >(printed on typewriter paper on a teletype, no less). Unfortunately the IL >code interpreter source is no longer with the package. Dr. Pittman has put >this on the web, by the way: http://www.sbuniv.edu/~tpittman/IttyBitty/; the >copies I have here appear to be identical. > >Jim From vaxzilla at jarai.org Tue May 20 14:08:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote: > BTW, did anyone ever make 8 1/2x11" tracker-fed greenbar? I'd love to > get ahold of a box or two for the LA75 on my PDP-11. Of course. It was very widely used for printing with 8-bit micros during the 1980s. I remember using lots of it when I was in elementary school. It does still seem to be available for purchase: I can't vouch for the vendor. I found them with a bit of googling. -brian. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 20 14:44:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What's Greenbar? ;^) > BTW, did anyone ever make 8 1/2x11" tracker-fed greenbar? yes From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 20 15:03:00 2003 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3ECA89D7.5020009@pacbell.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: ... > BTW, did anyone ever make 8 1/2x11" tracker-fed greenbar? That should be "tractor-fed", not "tracker-fed". From jpl15 at panix.com Tue May 20 15:09:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <3ECA89D7.5020009@pacbell.net> References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3ECA89D7.5020009@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Jim Battle wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > ... > > BTW, did anyone ever make 8 1/2x11" tracker-fed greenbar? > > That should be "tractor-fed", not "tracker-fed". Oh - so that also explains 'Lucky Pierre, the Fur-Tractor'. :{} John From allain at panix.com Tue May 20 15:43:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: DSSI vs DSSI... connectors References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030519155135.021db490@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <002c01c31f10$0e983620$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Hi, For few years everything i picked up with DSSI interface used mini-idc frmale connectors, leaving me with the impression that that was the connector for all DSSI. Later I found some that used mini"centronics" female connectors, so I was wrong, there are (at least) two types of connectors. Question is, are they compatible, and, where does one find an adaptor between the two (or a part number for one)? TIA John A. From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue May 20 15:51:00 2003 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520154445.03d09e50@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough to at least make a clock. I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: HP 05212-6016 series 648 HP 05212-6003 series 415 They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have an integrated HV supply of some sort. Here are a couple of pics for reference: http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of the module if possible. Thanks! --tom From jim at jkearney.com Tue May 20 15:54:01 2003 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 8008 treasure trove References: <3.0.6.16.20030520140708.497771be@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <02e301c31f11$db67e4b0$0f01090a@xpace.net> > Nice finds! I'm looking forward to seeing them on your site. Thanks... they are going to take some work, though. The low-budget concept seems to have been to reduce them to the limits of xerox technology to save on page count. Jim From aek at spies.com Tue May 20 16:24:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed Message-ID: <200305202124.h4KLOcmK017788@spies.com> I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments may have used these modules. --- HP 5245L Frequency counters From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue May 20 16:39:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed Message-ID: <200305202137.OAA03552@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Uban" > >Hello, > >Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a >stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that >I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough >to at least make a clock. > >I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: > HP 05212-6016 series 648 > HP 05212-6003 series 415 >They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have >an integrated HV supply of some sort. Hi I don't see anything that I'd call a power supply. The transistors look like they might be flops/latches or buffers to drive the nixies. If you don't find some schematics, you could hand draw some. I doubt that it would be too hard to follow. Dwight > >Here are a couple of pics for reference: > >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg > >I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments >may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of >the module if possible. > >Thanks! > >--tom From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 20 16:43:01 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered References: <20030520165132.GC329@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3ECA89D7.5020009@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <3ECAA05C.8030207@jetnet.ab.ca> John Lawson wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2003, Jim Battle wrote: > Oh - so that also explains 'Lucky Pierre, the Fur-Tractor' That is only if the CAT is sleeping on the printer. :) From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue May 20 17:04:01 2003 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <200305202137.OAA03552@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520165940.03d2fb38@mail.ubanproductions.com> Dwight, The circuit board portion is easy, but the bit inside of the black box is a bit more complex. While I originally thought that it might be an integral HV supply of some sort, I now have additional information which says otherwise. Interestingly enough, that info originated from Tony Duel. Here it is: HP made a decade counter/display board where the counter FFs were made from pairs of transistors in the conventional way (8 transistors on the board). These were controlled with diodes to count in 1242 (not 1248) BCD code. The outputs of these counters drove 8 neon bulbs, and by varying the bias applied, the state of the counter could be latched in the bulbs (that's why this is relevant here). These bulbs were mounted inside a plastic block on the PCB, and shone onto a think-flim circuit of CdS photoresistors. These were connected to form a binary to decimal decoder to drive a nixie tube. --tom At 02:37 PM 5/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >From: "Tom Uban" > > > >Hello, > > > >Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a > >stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that > >I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough > >to at least make a clock. > > > >I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: > > HP 05212-6016 series 648 > > HP 05212-6003 series 415 > >They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have > >an integrated HV supply of some sort. > >Hi > I don't see anything that I'd call a power supply. The >transistors look like they might be flops/latches or buffers to >drive the nixies. If you don't find some schematics, you >could hand draw some. I doubt that it would be too hard to >follow. >Dwight > > > > > >Here are a couple of pics for reference: > > > >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg > >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg > > > >I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments > >may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of > >the module if possible. > > > >Thanks! > > > >--tom From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue May 20 17:19:00 2003 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Well, it amused me... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520230830.00b77808@slave> This morning, a BT man was around to fix my fried ADSL router (BT model 5861 - apparently they have a known weakness in the PSU department). The question is, was he impressed by my bank of 5 servers, all humming contentedly away under a table? Nope. How about the impressive dual-processor workstation, laptop docking port, or 8-way KVM which allows me to control it all? Nope. Maybe the monstrous Laserjet 5siMX, or the sleek laser fax machine? Nope. What really took his breath away, and had him talking in hushed tones, is the ICL OPD I now use as my primary telephone! This (almost) 20 year old bit of kit, which has THE best dialling system I've ever happened across (1, 2 or 3-digit alphanumeric short-codes), and a very dodgy speech synthesizer, reduced BT Man to remeniscences of the like I've not heard since I was in the pub last... He suggested that BT do offer an exchange device (as in a telephone exchange, not a swap...) which allows similar short-code type dialling. However, it costs "a hell of a lot of money"... On a completely different amusement level, I happened to watch the film Swordfish tonight (and what an outrageous film it was too...); which made mention of "the only PDP-10 connected to the internet" (paraphrased). Unfortunately, the PDP itself didn't make the silver screen, but a reel-to-reel tape drive did. So, any ClassicCmp'ers seen said film, and is it a genuine Digital reel-to-reel tape drive they use? Answers on the back of an electron... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.com From jtinker at coin.org Tue May 20 17:24:00 2003 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: The very first personal computers - How many are left? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got a Scelbi 8h. I've read that Steve Ciarcia also has one. I'd be interested in hearing about any others that people may know of. Thanks, John Tinker 4/8/2003 12:26:26 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, The Design Fort DTP wrote: > >> One thing I was always interested in - and the visitors in my Computer >> Museum often want to know - is how many of the very first personal computers >> are still in existence. By first PCs I mean the following machines: >> Kenbak 1 >> Scelbi 8h >> Mark-8 >> IBM 5100 >> Apple 1 >> Altair 8800 >> IMSAI 8080 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 17:30:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520154445.03d09e50@mail.ubanproductions.com > Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520182852.448723ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Those are more or less standard display moduels from the 60 vintage HP gear. I don't know if they were all EXACTLY alike but they used these in counters, timers, volt meters and all kinds of stuff from the '60s and early seventies. At 03:50 PM 5/20/03 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, > >Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a >stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that >I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough >to at least make a clock. > >I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: > HP 05212-6016 series 648 > HP 05212-6003 series 415 The part number indicates that these were first designed for something with model # 5212. But I don't know what that is. >They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes All Nixies are made by Burroughs AFIK. Burroughs holds the patent and trademark for "Nixie" tubes. and look like they may have >an integrated HV supply of some sort. If you take them open you'll probably find an opto-coupler made of descrete parts. IN those days they didn't make transistors that would handle the voltage needed for the Nixeis so they used a light and a photo cell to gate the Nixies. I think the light was a NE-2 Neon buld but it's been a while I'm not positive any more. Joe > >Here are a couple of pics for reference: > >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg > >I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments >may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of >the module if possible. > >Thanks! > >--tom From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 17:38:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520165940.03d2fb38@mail.ubanproductions.com > References: <200305202137.OAA03552@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520183605.442f9380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:04 PM 5/20/03 -0500, you wrote: >Dwight, > >The circuit board portion is easy, but the bit inside of the black >box is a bit more complex. While I originally thought that it might be >an integral HV supply of some sort, I now have additional information >which says otherwise. Interestingly enough, that info originated from >Tony Duel. Here it is: > > HP made a decade counter/display board where the counter FFs were > made from pairs of transistors in the conventional way (8 transistors > on the board). These were controlled with diodes to count in 1242 > (not 1248) BCD code. That makes sense. Before HP-IB HP used a BCD interface. It wasn't a 1 2 4 8 code, it was a 1 2 not2 4 or something like that and it was designed so that there were no possible states greater than 9. Data was sent 4 bits parallel, nibble serial fashion. I don't remember exactly how but the was also a way to handle +/- signs and decimal points. Joe > > The outputs of these counters drove 8 neon bulbs, and by varying the > bias applied, the state of the counter could be latched in the bulbs > (that's why this is relevant here). These bulbs were mounted inside a > plastic block on the PCB, and shone onto a think-flim circuit of CdS > photoresistors. These were connected to form a binary to decimal > decoder to drive a nixie tube. > >--tom > >At 02:37 PM 5/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: >> >From: "Tom Uban" >> > >> >Hello, >> > >> >Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a >> >stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that >> >I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough >> >to at least make a clock. >> > >> >I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: >> > HP 05212-6016 series 648 >> > HP 05212-6003 series 415 >> >They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have >> >an integrated HV supply of some sort. >> >>Hi >> I don't see anything that I'd call a power supply. The >>transistors look like they might be flops/latches or buffers to >>drive the nixies. If you don't find some schematics, you >>could hand draw some. I doubt that it would be too hard to >>follow. >>Dwight >> >> >> > >> >Here are a couple of pics for reference: >> > >> >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg >> >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg >> > >> >I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments >> >may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of >> >the module if possible. >> > >> >Thanks! >> > >> >--tom From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 17:39:39 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520165940.03d2fb38@mail.ubanproductions.com > References: <200305202137.OAA03552@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520183605.4427ca32@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:04 PM 5/20/03 -0500, you wrote: >Dwight, > >The circuit board portion is easy, but the bit inside of the black >box is a bit more complex. While I originally thought that it might be >an integral HV supply of some sort, I now have additional information >which says otherwise. Interestingly enough, that info originated from >Tony Duel. Here it is: > > HP made a decade counter/display board where the counter FFs were > made from pairs of transistors in the conventional way (8 transistors > on the board). These were controlled with diodes to count in 1242 > (not 1248) BCD code. That makes sense. Before HP-IB HP used a BCD interface. It wasn't a 1 2 4 8 code, it was a 1 2 not2 4 or something like that and it was designed so that there were no possible states greater than 9. Data was sent 4 bits parallel, nibble serial fashion. I don't remember exactly how but the was also a way to handle +/- signs and decimal points. Joe > > The outputs of these counters drove 8 neon bulbs, and by varying the > bias applied, the state of the counter could be latched in the bulbs > (that's why this is relevant here). These bulbs were mounted inside a > plastic block on the PCB, and shone onto a think-flim circuit of CdS > photoresistors. These were connected to form a binary to decimal > decoder to drive a nixie tube. > >--tom > >At 02:37 PM 5/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: >> >From: "Tom Uban" >> > >> >Hello, >> > >> >Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a >> >stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that >> >I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough >> >to at least make a clock. >> > >> >I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: >> > HP 05212-6016 series 648 >> > HP 05212-6003 series 415 >> >They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have >> >an integrated HV supply of some sort. >> >>Hi >> I don't see anything that I'd call a power supply. The >>transistors look like they might be flops/latches or buffers to >>drive the nixies. If you don't find some schematics, you >>could hand draw some. I doubt that it would be too hard to >>follow. >>Dwight >> >> >> > >> >Here are a couple of pics for reference: >> > >> >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg >> >http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg >> > >> >I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments >> >may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of >> >the module if possible. >> > >> >Thanks! >> > >> >--tom From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue May 20 19:20:00 2003 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520154445.03d09e50@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <012701c31f2e$8793c170$0100a8c0@athlon> Tom The DCAs (Decimal Counter Assembly) in those counters (5243 series, 5245 series) came in low and high speed versions. The -6016 is the normal low speed 600kHz version used in most of the count positions and provides +1224 BCD output to the rear panel connector. The -6003 version is the option 03 variation of it that provided 1248 BCD output with the '1' state negative.(as opposed to the -6002 which was the same but with '1' state positive.) I have schematics if you need 'em- my 5245M still rolls along quite nicely since it knows I have the service info! Cheers Dave Brown Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Uban" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 8:50 AM Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed > Hello, > > Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a > stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that > I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough > to at least make a clock. > > I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: > HP 05212-6016 series 648 > HP 05212-6003 series 415 > They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have > an integrated HV supply of some sort. > > Here are a couple of pics for reference: > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg > http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg > > I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments > may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of > the module if possible. > > Thanks! > > --tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 20 19:27:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <008301c31ef1$41ae4f00$0400fea9@game> from "TeoZ" at May 20, 3 01:00:02 pm Message-ID: > Any original games on those 3.5's? > > I generally buy my disks bulk on ebay when I see a bargain. Most of my old > 16 bit computers use those rare 3.5 DD disks, found 500 new for $20 once.. Odd, most of my 16 bit machines use 8" disks... Are 3.5" DD floppies that hard to obtain? I've seen them on sale in high street shops over here in the last week or so (at twice the rpice of the HD ones, of course...). If they're getting hard to find, I'd better stock up, as my 9114s need them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 20 19:29:58 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520154445.03d09e50@mail.ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at May 20, 3 03:50:44 pm Message-ID: > Hello, > > Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a > stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that > I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough > to at least make a clock. > > I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: > HP 05212-6016 series 648 > HP 05212-6003 series 415 I have a schematic for the 5212L-4A Series 401 counter which might be closely related > They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have > an integrated HV supply of some sort. No. The black plasic block is a latch and decimal decoder (!). It contains 8 neons (look like NE2s, but the parts list doesn't give individual parts for this block) which perform the latching function for the 4 bits and their inverses. The top of the block is a thick film circuit of LDRs which forms a decoder tree to turn on the apporpriate cathode of the nixie tube. I can provide a pinout of the 15 pin card edge, but the signals may not be too obvious without the complete service manual. Pin 1 is towards the front (nixie tube) end 1 : -130V 2 : 3 : 4 : +170V 5 : Transfer Input (latch enable) 6 : BCD Output A 7 : Signal Input 8 : Gate Input (Not used?) 9 : BCD Output B 10 : Signal Output to next decade 11 : +20V 12 : Reset Input 13 : BCD Output C 14 : BCD Output D 15 : -15V > I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments > may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of Well, the 5245 Counter uses closely related modules (I have one of these instruments and the full service manual...) Doubtless other instruments did too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 20 19:32:54 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520165940.03d2fb38@mail.ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at May 20, 3 05:04:07 pm Message-ID: > Dwight, > > The circuit board portion is easy, but the bit inside of the black > box is a bit more complex. While I originally thought that it might be > an integral HV supply of some sort, I now have additional information > which says otherwise. Interestingly enough, that info originated from > Tony Duel. Here it is: Yes, it is me :-) The block is not that complex. Inside there are 8 neons. From the top, they are : C, C/, B/, B, D, D/, A, A/ (according to the manual). The neon wires are soldered to the PCB. On top of the block is the thick-film LDR array, and on tom of that is a resistor network of 10 270k resistors. The top wire of that goes to the +20V rail, the wires on the left go to the nixie cathodes (there's a 270k resistor from each cathode to +20V). The LDRs also connect to the cathodes. The bottom wire from the resistor network is not used, but the pin it's connected to is the common of the LDR array, and goes to -130V. There's a good theory-of-operation section in the 5245 manual, BTW. You want to try to get a copy of this. -tony From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue May 20 19:59:01 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053478715.13643.8.camel@crusader> On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > Any original games on those 3.5's? > > > > I generally buy my disks bulk on ebay when I see a bargain. Most of my old > > 16 bit computers use those rare 3.5 DD disks, found 500 new for $20 once.. > > Odd, most of my 16 bit machines use 8" disks... > > Are 3.5" DD floppies that hard to obtain? I've seen them on sale in high > street shops over here in the last week or so (at twice the rpice of the > HD ones, of course...). If they're getting hard to find, I'd better stock > up, as my 9114s need them... I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. I know 5.25" HD disks don't work as 5.25" DS disks.. but I thought 3.5" disks did.. ? (Of course, I haven't tried it recently enough to remember either.) David > > -tony From oldcomp at cox.net Tue May 20 20:39:00 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: The very first personal computers - How many are left? References: Message-ID: <3ECAD868.9040301@cox.net> Pictures! ...Must have pictures! -Bryan John Tinker wrote: >I've got a Scelbi 8h. I've read that Steve Ciarcia also has one. I'd be interested in >hearing about any others that people may know of. > >Thanks, >John Tinker From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue May 20 20:59:01 2003 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Current Subscribe Procedure? Message-ID: <3ECADCF9.C7289E29@compsys.to> I have not subscribed since before the change to cctalk. Can someone please point me to the current procedure? I want to change to a different e-mail address. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 20 21:48:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <1053478715.13643.8.camel@crusader> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030520224409.444f6314@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:58 PM 5/20/03 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Any original games on those 3.5's? >> > >> > I generally buy my disks bulk on ebay when I see a bargain. Most of my old >> > 16 bit computers use those rare 3.5 DD disks, found 500 new for $20 once.. >> >> Odd, most of my 16 bit machines use 8" disks... >> >> Are 3.5" DD floppies that hard to obtain? I've seen them on sale in high >> street shops over here in the last week or so (at twice the rpice of the >> HD ones, of course...). If they're getting hard to find, I'd better stock >> up, as my 9114s need them... > >I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At >worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. Nope the HP drives are fussy. They won't use the HD disks. I tried them in the 9114, 9133, 9121, 9122, 9153, Integral and others and NONE of the HP drives will format the HD disks. > >I know 5.25" HD disks don't work as 5.25" DS disks.. but I thought 3.5" >disks did.. They usually will for PCs but not for the HPs. Joe > >? (Of course, I haven't tried it recently enough to remember either.) > >David > >> >> -tony From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 20 21:52:00 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 Message-ID: <20030521025114.2058.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com> Many years ago Practical Electronics in the UK published the design of a microprocessor-based system called the CHAMP. If I remember rightly it was built on Veroboard. I remember reading the articles in the school library and wishing I could build one. Did anyone ever build one of these ? Do the plans still exist anywhere ? Also, I'd like to re-acquaint myself with the Microtan 65 which was one of the first systems I ever owned. Are there any systems still in existence ? Dave. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 20 22:13:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered Message-ID: >I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At >worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. At least with the Mac, this isn't a good idea for long term use. It will sometimes format the disk as DD if you tape over the HD sense hole, but even if it does, you can pretty much count on the disk failing in a very short period of time. I've never had a disk last more than a few read/write sessions. After that, errors start occuring and you can't read or write to it any more. In many of the cases, the disk is usually hosed after this and won't take a format back to HD anymore. I can't say that I've really tried it outside of a Mac, so it might just be a Mac thing that keeps it from working. And despite the fact that some company made a hole puncher to make DD disks into HD disks (I have one), that doesn't seem to work any better on the Mac. In fact, in my findings, it works even worse as it rarely ever even took the HD format in the first place, and when it did, it immediatly starting having R/W errors and was unusable anyway. -chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 20 22:17:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Current Subscribe Procedure? In-Reply-To: from "Jerome H. Fine" at May 20, 2003 09:57:13 PM Message-ID: <200305210242.h4L2gvC4030265@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have not subscribed since before the change to cctalk. > Can someone please point me to the current procedure? > I want to change to a different e-mail address. Being a major smart A** I can't resist pointing out the following information in the message headers. Though since you're in a Win98 system I suspect they're probably hidden from you (I read a lot of the messages using 'elm' on Unix so I see most of the headers). I don't think I see these when I read the messages with Eudora on my Mac. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Zane From donm at cts.com Tue May 20 22:56:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030520154445.03d09e50@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Tom Uban wrote: > Hello, > > Probably my best find at the recent Hamvention in Dayton OH was a > stack of nixie tube modules made by HP. In retrospect, I wish that > I had purchased the whole box of them, but I hopefully have enough > to at least make a clock. I have seldom regretted the items that I purchased, but often regretted those that I did not! - don > I have two variations on the modules, the part numbers are: > HP 05212-6016 series 648 > HP 05212-6003 series 415 > They both use Borroughs B422 nixie tubes and look like they may have > an integrated HV supply of some sort. > > Here are a couple of pics for reference: > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg > http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg > > I would appreciate if anyone can tell me what HP (or other) instruments > may have used these modules. I would also like to find a schematic of > the module if possible. > > Thanks! > > --tom From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed May 21 02:26:00 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <20030521025114.2058.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030521081801.0336fec0@pop.freeserve.net> At 19:51 20/05/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Many years ago Practical Electronics in the UK >published the design of a microprocessor-based system >called the CHAMP. If I remember rightly it was built >on Veroboard. I remember reading the articles in the >school library and wishing I could build one. > >Did anyone ever build one of these ? Do the plans >still exist anywhere ? Hmm. I have an unsorted mass of PE mags dating from the mid-60's through mid-80's in boxes in the spare room; have you any idea of the rough date of this? Boxes are at the bottom of a pile (typically, but they are heavy..) but I have to move them in the next few weeks anyway, so can take the opportunity to skim through them. Rob. >Also, I'd like to re-acquaint myself with the Microtan >65 which was one of the first systems I ever owned. >Are there any systems still in existence ? ah, I remember looking at the ads for these ... finally ended up with a zx81 kit (worked first time, too!). Rob. >Dave. >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Wed May 21 02:44:01 2003 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS software. Message-ID: <3ECB2D98.1080607@carnagevisors.net> Hi All, Finally sorted out the licenses, and now have OpenVMS installed on my MicroVAX 3100 80 (it was running netbsd) Cool, learning vms is *fun* well its a challenge. Does anyone know a good source for software for the VAX at all.. Benjamin -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 21 03:45:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Current Subscribe Procedure? In-Reply-To: <200305210242.h4L2gvC4030265@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200305210242.h4L2gvC4030265@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Being a major smart A** I can't resist pointing out the following >information in the message headers. Though since you're in a Win98 system I BTW, this was supposed to have a smiley in there.... >suspect they're probably hidden from you (I read a lot of the messages using >'elm' on Unix so I see most of the headers). I don't think I see these when >I read the messages with Eudora on my Mac. It turns out that I can see the headers under Eudora, though I'm wondering if they show up under MS Outlook/Outlook Express. Do they? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 21 03:49:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS software. In-Reply-To: <3ECB2D98.1080607@carnagevisors.net> References: <3ECB2D98.1080607@carnagevisors.net> Message-ID: >Finally sorted out the licenses, and now have OpenVMS installed on my MicroVAX 3100 80 (it was running netbsd) >Cool, learning vms is *fun* well its a challenge. Glad to hear another VAX is running a proper OS :^) I always hate to think of a VAX running Unix! >Does anyone know a good source for software for the VAX at all.. Are you talking about layered products, or other software? The OpenVMS FAQ should have pointers to the various freeware archives. If you're looking for layered products that aren't on the Hobbyist CD (assuming that's how you installed OpenVMS), your best bet is to get a VAX ConDist from eBay. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Wed May 21 04:14:00 2003 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS software. In-Reply-To: References: <3ECB2D98.1080607@carnagevisors.net> Message-ID: <3ECB42D4.1070803@carnagevisors.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Glad to hear another VAX is running a proper OS :^) I always hate to think of a VAX running Unix! > > >>Does anyone know a good source for software for the VAX at all.. > > > Are you talking about layered products, or other software? The OpenVMS FAQ should have pointers to the various freeware archives. If you're looking for layered products that aren't on the Hobbyist CD (assuming that's how you installed OpenVMS), your best bet is to get a VAX ConDist from eBay. > > Zane > I like running the proper OS on a given piece of hardware. I was talkin about layered products.. So a condist from ebay is the best way to go, I will keep my eyes open for them.. Thanks Benjamin -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 21 04:46:00 2003 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:46 2005 Subject: Current Subscribe Procedure? Message-ID: <1A9EACFF5B9EB9489F00104C00ECF641027B0C5E@hqvenlomail.oce.nl> Well, I quickly checked for Outlook. Outlook Express *could* be different as with many other things between Outlook/Outlook Express. To see all headers do the following in Outlook: - open the mail message (not preview, but "full screen") - click "View" from the menu bar - select "Options..." from the list that appears. The "Message Options" dialog box opens. - In the "Message Options" dialog box at the bottom the scroll box shows the "Internet headers:". - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Sent: woensdag 21 mei 2003 10:44 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Current Subscribe Procedure? > > > >Being a major smart A** I can't resist pointing out the following > >information in the message headers. Though since you're in > a Win98 system I > > BTW, this was supposed to have a smiley in there.... > > >suspect they're probably hidden from you (I read a lot of > the messages using > >'elm' on Unix so I see most of the headers). I don't think > I see these when > >I read the messages with Eudora on my Mac. > > It turns out that I can see the headers under Eudora, though > I'm wondering if they show up under MS Outlook/Outlook > Express. Do they? > > Zane > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jtinker at coin.org Wed May 21 04:50:00 2003 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: The very first personal computers - How many are left? In-Reply-To: <3ECAD868.9040301@cox.net> Message-ID: Pictures of Scelbi #4100-0015: http://schema-root.org/museum/electronic/computer/_jft/scelbi/ John Tinker 5/20/2003 9:37:44 PM, Bryan Blackburn wrote: >Pictures! ...Must have pictures! > >-Bryan From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed May 21 05:23:01 2003 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Current Subscribe Procedure? References: <1A9EACFF5B9EB9489F00104C00ECF641027B0C5E@hqvenlomail.oce.nl> Message-ID: <000801c31f82$e9e98270$0100a8c0@athlon> OE-- File/Properties/Details and optionally, to get it in a 'stretchable' window, 'Message Source'. DaveB CHCH, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gooijen H" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: RE: Current Subscribe Procedure? > Well, I quickly checked for Outlook. Outlook Express *could* be > different as with many other things between Outlook/Outlook Express. > To see all headers do the following in Outlook: > - open the mail message (not preview, but "full screen") > - click "View" from the menu bar > - select "Options..." from the list that appears. > The "Message Options" dialog box opens. > - In the "Message Options" dialog box at the bottom the > scroll box shows the "Internet headers:". > > - Henk. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > > Sent: woensdag 21 mei 2003 10:44 > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Current Subscribe Procedure? > > > > > > >Being a major smart A** I can't resist pointing out the following > > >information in the message headers. Though since you're in > > a Win98 system I > > > > BTW, this was supposed to have a smiley in there.... > > > > >suspect they're probably hidden from you (I read a lot of > > the messages using > > >'elm' on Unix so I see most of the headers). I don't think > > I see these when > > >I read the messages with Eudora on my Mac. > > > > It turns out that I can see the headers under Eudora, though > > I'm wondering if they show up under MS Outlook/Outlook > > Express. Do they? > > > > Zane > > > > -- > > -- > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > > | | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed May 21 07:20:01 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030520224409.444f6314@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Hmmm, I'll have to try it out on the IIgs, which is the only place I'd have need of DS/DD 3.5" disks.... Thought I could get away w/ DS/HD 3.5" disks with it, perhaps I should keep my eyes open for DS/DD 3.5" disks in the thrift stores as well. thanks, (I think.. :-) ) David PS: Gee, didn't I get my DS/DD/HD abbreviations wrong in the previous message.. On Tue, 20 May 2003, Joe wrote: > > > >I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At > >worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. > > Nope the HP drives are fussy. They won't use the HD disks. I tried them > in the 9114, 9133, 9121, 9122, 9153, Integral and others and NONE of the HP > drives will format the HD disks. > > > > > >I know 5.25" HD disks don't work as 5.25" DS disks.. but I thought 3.5" > >disks did.. > > They usually will for PCs but not for the HPs. > > Joe From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed May 21 07:43:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030521081801.0336fec0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <20030521124140.16734.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> > Hmm. I have an unsorted mass of PE mags dating from > the mid-60's through > mid-80's in boxes in the spare room; have you any > idea of the rough date of > this? Boxes are at the bottom of a pile (typically, > but they are heavy..) > but I have to move them in the next few weeks > anyway, so can take the > opportunity to skim through them. > > Rob. I think it would have been published around 1978 or 1979. I had one of the articles - but I think the design spanned several issues. It would be great if you had the full set ! > > > >Also, I'd like to re-acquaint myself with the > Microtan > >65 which was one of the first systems I ever owned. > >Are there any systems still in existence ? > > ah, I remember looking at the ads for these ... > finally ended up with a > zx81 kit (worked first time, too!). I still have my ZX80 which preceded the Microtan. I don't count it as my first system though because once I built it I didn't do anything with it. It just sat there. Dave. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 21 07:47:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030521081821.3cd7b9d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:11 PM 5/20/03 -0400, you wrote: >>I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At >>worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. > >At least with the Mac, this isn't a good idea for long term use. It will >sometimes format the disk as DD if you tape over the HD sense hole, but >even if it does, you can pretty much count on the disk failing in a very >short period of time. I've never had a disk last more than a few >read/write sessions. After that, errors start occuring and you can't read >or write to it any more. > >In many of the cases, the disk is usually hosed after this and won't take >a format back to HD anymore. This has been my experience with PCs as well. I might be wrong it seems like the older disks and PCs worked better but the newer ones seldom work. Joe From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Wed May 21 08:40:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: OT: David Betz[Fwd: failure notice] Message-ID: <3ECB80FA.401559BF@comcast.net> Apologies for this message, but... Does anyone know how to get ahold of David Betz? His e-mail box seems to be a bit full... MAILER-DAEMON@... wrote: > > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mercury.mv.net. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > Recipient's mailbox is full, message returned to sender. (#5.2.2) > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 21 08:58:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question Message-ID: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS media. No manuals, just the media. Several questions: >From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? Thanks for any enlightenment! Jay West From cschaefer at ti.com Wed May 21 09:07:00 2003 From: cschaefer at ti.com (Chuck Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: co-worker? Message-ID: <000001c31e51$da829100$835dda9e@cna0796096> Is this the Steve Loboyko who used to work at Sola? If so, give me a response. Chuck Schaefer Sr. Process Designer Texas Instruments From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 21 09:10:05 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: <10305192011.ZM29000@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Peter Turnbull > Sent: 19 May 2003 20:11 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer > > > > Livingston > > > Hire, if I recall correctly, (certainly we used them a lot) so > > > there may be a chance you can find some old docs from them. > > > > Is that these people? > > Yes, same company. I've occasionally hired specialist test equipment > from them. Thanks Pete, I'll give 'em a shout. Either the programmer is fubar or all of my spare EPROMs are, and given the age of the stuff BOTH could be :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From Ghena2 at aol.com Wed May 21 09:13:04 2003 From: Ghena2 at aol.com (Ghena2@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Mathiputer Message-ID: << I just took delivery of a Cybernetic Systems Mathiputer.It's a stupid odd-shaped math toy that quizes you on arithmetic..... >> Hey, i WANT one of those things! In some thirty plus years of teaching special education kids, i have never found anything before or since that has worked as well for getting number facts semi-permanently into a certain subset of smart, but learning disabled, brains! NONE of the newer fancy number facts software can hold a candle.... If i knew how to program, i'd write something for windows that worked precisely like the good ol' Mathiputer! So.... If happens you know where i can get one that is still functional, at a price i can possibly afford on school teacher's wages, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!! Thanks, Ghena Dalby Ghena2@aol.com From tlatimer at voyager.net Wed May 21 09:16:03 2003 From: tlatimer at voyager.net (Thomas Latimer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Data General 216 terminals Message-ID: <3ECAB8A2.3050009@voyager.net> Hi, Have a client with an OLD point of sale/rental system which is hardwired for DG 216 terminals. One went completely out last week and he wants to try to replace it. Do you have any, or know anyone with some of these left ? Thanks in advance, Tom Latimer, Precision Computer Systems tlatimer@voyager.net Okemos, Michigan (517) 349 5332 From vance at neurotica.com Wed May 21 09:19:00 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Dryer outlets and Thyristors In-Reply-To: <000101c31e65$52dbe9e0$7f00a8c0@midorirose.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 2003, Robert F. Schaefer wrote: > > All you do is to hook the two live leads from the dryer plug to the > > three live terminals on the 3-phase plug on the VAX. What I mean is > > that you hook phase 1 live and phase 3 live to one live leg of the > > dryer plug, and phase 2 to the other live leg. Then you hook neutral > > to neutral, ground to ground, and plug it in. Then you're good to go. > > It's been a while since I tamed my VAX 6320, but ISTR that it can be as > easy as taping off one of the three hot legs on the power cord and > feeding the other two with 220V-- it's a full-wave rectifier on the > other end. You might lose power to part of the internal accessory power > strip, though. Which is exactly what my setup would avoid. Peace... Sridhar From pat at purdueriots.com Wed May 21 09:23:00 2003 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS > media. No manuals, just the media. > > Several questions: > > From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for > openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just Yes. > download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in > short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? There's no official download site, you have to pay for a copy ($30 with shipping) from Montagar. Or you can find yourself a copy of the media and use that with the hobbyist license. The biggest reason I'd get a second-hand copy is to get an earlier version of it. The only version (if they've finished making copies yet) available from Montagar is OpenVMS 7.3 > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's > talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? Nope. VMS only runs on VAXen, Alphas, and (in the future perhaps) Itaniums, While earlier versions of VMS might fit in the memory space of an 11/44, the instructions set is quit a bit more sparse (and quite a bit different... including 16bit words on the PDP vs 32bit words on the VAX) on the PDP than the VAX. I've heard you can get some PDP software to run on the VAX in 'emulation mode' (I think that was in the "Assembly Language for the PDP-11 book I just got off of eBay), you most certainly can't go the other way around... at least without a lot of work and a big pile of crack to help with coming up with ideas :). You can run a lot of different OS's on the PDP still, from RT-11, to RSX-11, to even some versions of BSD. Oh yes, and don't forget you can run standalone things that don't require an OS, too. That's why they put those wonderful toggle switches on the front of the cPU :). Now I just wish I had a machine with some... > Thanks for any enlightenment! > > Jay West Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From vance at neurotica.com Wed May 21 09:26:02 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Oldest computer still in current use In-Reply-To: <200305200850.h4K8olQ17334@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: They're not still making them? They're still making the '186. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 20 May 2003, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > I read that the NASA is now searching for 8086 chips on ebay, as the supply on the market has almost disappeared. > > > Pierre > > > > > cctech@classiccmp.org schrieb am 16.05.03 17:19:18: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com] > > > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:22 AM > > > To: Classic Computers > > > Subject: Re: Oldest computer still in current use > > > > > > > > > > > I am inclined to believe there may still be some ground > > > systems for the > > > Space Shuttle program that are run on 8080 based machines.2 > > > > > > > I can confirm as a fact that there was at least 1 8086 flying on Columbia > > before Feb 1. > > > > > > > > ************************************ > > If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the > > delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may > > contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not > > copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and > > kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this > > message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by > > nor attributable to ITT. > > ************************************ > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ImmobilienScout24 - Über 170.000 Immobilien - Finden Sie hier Ihre neue > Traumwohnung! In Immobilien die Nr.1 im Netz: http://info.is24.de/web.de From kens at cad2cam.com Wed May 21 09:29:00 2003 From: kens at cad2cam.com (Kenneth G. Stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: HP7585B ROM Message-ID: <1053447619.6537.9.camel@atlas.cadtocam.com> Given a plotter made in 1985. ROM checksum error appears at powerup. The ROM has the numbers 0785-18078 Rev A 10-29-84 and the second ROM has the numbers 07585-18076. Anybody have the image of these ROMs so I can reburn them? Ken CAD2CAM.COM From mrfusion at uranium.vaxpower.org Wed May 21 09:31:57 2003 From: mrfusion at uranium.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: FREE TO A GOOD HOME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, my revised list of hardware free to a good home is as follows: 1 IBM RS6000 powerstation 250 1 Macintosh IIcx 1 DECstation 3100 2 DECstation 2100 1 DECstation 5000/125 1 DEC3000/300 1 VAX 11/730 1 VAX 11/750 1 HP 9000/300 All the guts of a VAX 6000/400 1 sparc 2 1 sun 3/60 1 TU80 9track tape drive 1 DECsystem 5400 1 MicroVAX in a BA213 - must go quickly Lots of TK50s, Qbus parts, and tons of manuals. All the gear is in Pittsburgh, PA, free for pickup. Happy hacking, isildur From hansp at citem.org Wed May 21 09:35:52 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <002c01c31ee3$54a7d300$0400fea9@game> References: <002c01c31ee3$54a7d300$0400fea9@game> Message-ID: <3ECB1309.8050504@citem.org> TeoZ wrote: > They should EBAY the duplicates or gut them for spares, that way they > wouldnt need the same footprint. For a museium to have many multiples of the > same item is a waste of space (which costs money). This idea of dumping duplicates comes up in our internal discussions at ACONIT every few months. The discussions get heated every time. Some of us do not see the value of ANY duplicates, others (in the same camp as myself) want to keep EVERYTHING. I do admit that some of what we collect could probably be junked, the problem is knowing what. Without an in depth and knowlegeable examination you just cannot make a reasonable decision. My favorite argument is that if the dump the duplicate argument had won the day we would most probably have dumped one of our two PDP-9's and in that case would probably never have gotten one to operational state. -- hbp From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Wed May 21 09:39:12 2003 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <007401c31fa5$2d23ed60$023ca8c0@blafleur> Jay. There is a free hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but you can't download the actual files from the web. You need to obtain actual media from somewhere. So, you SHOULD grab this from your friend. OpenVMS comes in two flavors: "VAX" and "Alpha". The "VAX" version runs on VAX machines (MicroVAX II, 2000, 3100 series, bigger VAXen, etc), and the "Alpha" version runs on Alpha boxes. No VMS will run on PDP's such as an 11/44. Hope this helps, - Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:57 AM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: openvms... another question Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS media. No manuals, just the media. Several questions: >From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license >for openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? Thanks for any enlightenment! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 21 09:42:22 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: Message-ID: <008601c31fa6$61a45e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Geeze... I KNEW I should have picked up that VAX 11/7xx when I was in IL a few years ago with an empty cargo van *sigh* What was I thinking?? Someday I'll find one :) Jay From vance at neurotica.com Wed May 21 09:45:32 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >box (That is, the size of a box of real computer paper: wide greenbar. > >Now, hopefully no one is going to ask a question like "what's > >greenbar?") packed nearly full of, mostly unboxed, and used, floppies. > > What's Greenbar? ;^) > > Seriously, it wouldn't surprise me if there are a fair number of people > here that don't know what you're talking about. Me, I've worked on > Mainframes, so am very familiar with what you're talking about. > > BTW, did anyone ever make 8 1/2x11" tracker-fed greenbar? I'd love to > get ahold of a box or two for the LA75 on my PDP-11. I have a box of GP 8.5x11" greenbar. Peace... Sridhar From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Wed May 21 09:48:35 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Australian museum may bite the dust Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089BE@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Another sad story... http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/19/1053196515142.html paul From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Wed May 21 09:51:36 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089BF@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Thanks for that. I tried simply zipping up a .WAV file created by the program I mentioned and it compressed from 544kb down to 3.4kb. The original data file was 409 bytes, so although the result is 8 times bigger than the data file, storage is not too much of a problem. At this compression ratio (or rather expansion I suppose), a CD could store 80Mb of original computer data - more than was probably ever written for some of those computers!. paul -----Original Message----- From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: 20 May 2003 00:26 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Preserving ancient media > That's sort of what I was thinking of. Of course, as you say, it is ZX81 > specific. > > Were these home computer tape format's standardised in any way, or at least Not at _all_ Just about every manufacturer did it his own way... > based on an older standard? I seem to remember a format called > "Cottis-Blandford" from years ago. Am I right in saying that most home I thought the common one was 'Kansas City', but that was not common on UK home computers (the BBC micro was perhaps the closest to it). > computer's tape data format was 1200Hz and 2400Hz for logic 0 and 1 (maybe No! Some did, many didn't. What's worse is that some manufacturers used a constant time for each bit (so that one state was a single cycle of 1200 Hz, the other was 2 cycles of 2400 Hz, say), but many other manufacturers used a single cycle at each frequency for the 2 states. This means the bit rate is not even constant... > the other way round). How many stop/start & parity bits (and possibly more > control bits) are sent may be computer-specific I guess. However, a reasonable quality digital audio recording of these old tapes might well be enough to preserver them (you could play it back to a real tape, or directly into the home computer). It's not an efficient way to store the data, but it's better than losing it totally. -tony From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 09:55:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521144706.78060.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Nope. VMS only runs on VAXen, Alphas, and (in the future perhaps) > Itaniums... I have seen information that demonstrates that the future is now. It's not shipping, but it is real. There was a contest (which I lost by several days :-( ) to guess when OpenVMS on Itanium would be up far enough to get a directory. It was months ago. There has been additional progress since then. > While earlier versions of VMS might fit in the memory space of > an 11/44... VMS 3.x will run in a couple of MB of RAM. I've run up to 5.0 in 5MB, but it wasn't pretty, and it only took a second user to thrash the swapfile. We routinely ran VMS 4.x on an 8MB 11/750 with several dozen users with only occasional discomfort. > ...the instruction set is quit a bit more sparse (and quite a bit > different... including 16bit words on the PDP vs 32bit words on the VAX) Not to mention the 4-level protection model on the VAX vs 2 levels on the PDP-11. > I've heard you can get some PDP software to run on the VAX in > 'emulation mode' Emulation mode is only available on certain VAX processors - mostly in the 11/7xx line. It is _not_ available in the MicroVAX line, partially, I heard, because the engineering prototypes ran PDP-11 code faster than they ran VAX code. It was put into the first few models because of all the RSX-11 code they could steal when there wasn't enough native code to get real work done in development. The "MCR" command is the (still working) vestigal invocation. In the old days, on the right processor, you could kick off an RSX-11 task with "MCR ". Now, it's just used to run (native-mode) system utilities in SYS$SYSTEM (as in MCR AUTHORIZE or MCR SYSMAN). > ...you most certainly can't go > the other way around... at least without a lot of work and a big pile of > crack to help with coming up with ideas :). Big pile of crack indeed! You'd need enough to hallucinate that it was working. You want a challenge? Port SIMH to the PDP-11. That'd be about the best way to do it (and I don't think SIMH is going to like being on a 16-bit processor, no matter how much memory you have). > Oh yes, and don't forget you can run standalone things that don't > require an OS, too. That's why they put those wonderful toggle > switches on the front of the cPU :). Now I just > wish I had a machine with some... So does he... the 11/44 has a single switch. It, like so many PDP-11s, uses "console-mode ODT" - you get a "@" prompt on the console terminal and you type commands to enter words into core and execute code. It is useful enough to manually enter bootstraps, but there's nothing to look at. You need a pre-1980 PDP-11 to get blinkenlights (I'm still hunting an affordable frontpanel for my 11/70...) -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From vance at neurotica.com Wed May 21 09:57:57 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: OpenVMS software. In-Reply-To: <3ECB2D98.1080607@carnagevisors.net> Message-ID: What sort of software are you looking for? The OpenVMS Freeware Library is a good place to start. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 21 May 2003, Benjamin Gardiner wrote: > Hi All, > > Finally sorted out the licenses, and now have OpenVMS installed on my > MicroVAX 3100 80 (it was running netbsd) > Cool, learning vms is *fun* well its a challenge. > > Does anyone know a good source for software for the VAX at all.. > > Benjamin > -- > one you lock the target > two you bait the line > three you slowly spread the net > and four you catch the man > > Front 242 Headhunter From lgomez at cdromsa.es Wed May 21 10:02:01 2003 From: lgomez at cdromsa.es (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Luis_G=F3mez?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <002301c31fa4$d120a120$9600a8c0@Luis> I'm repairing an Enterprise 128. Has somebody experience repairing this computer? I have other Enterprise 64 in perfect condition. 12v DC and 5v DC in board are ok Eprom chip is ok (i exchanged it between two computer) I have schematic but only og memory expansion, and i/o circuit, including Dave chip. I need schematics of complete board. Thanks From kth at srv.net Wed May 21 10:20:48 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ECB9531.3090004@srv.net> Jay West wrote: >Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > >A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS >media. No manuals, just the media. > > The VMS manuals are online at dec^H^H^Hcompaq^H^H^H^H^H^HHP's web site. >Several questions: > >>From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for >openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just >download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it >giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in >short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? > The licenses are available for hobbyest use, but not the media. You need to be a decus member to get them. You need both, so grab them. > >Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's >talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? > > > VMS will NOT run on a PDP-11. At least not without massive changes to the CPU (add all the VAX instructions, and remove the PDP-11 ones). From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 10:25:25 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20030521142441.88062.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS > media. No manuals, just the media. Take it. That having been said, what version and what media? CD-ROM? > Several questions: > > From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license > for openvms? Yes. You have to join Encompass (formerly DECUS) to get access to the license key generator which will let you build licenses PAKs (files with magic numbers) with a one-year expiration date. You'll need to renew the PAKs every year. See http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can > just download it. The Hobbyist license does not provide for getting the media - you must buy/borrow it on your own. There are no legitimate download sites for OpenVMS (and no illegitimate sites that I am aware of). > Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... License transfer has nothing to do with the media. I have a real, filed and stamped VMS license from when I bought my VAX-11/725 in 1987. At the time, it was worth something. Now, it's only commerical value (if any) would be as credit on an upgrade (if any). > in short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? It's easier than borrowing. > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what > he's talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? Um... no. With the 11/44, you can run 2BSD, RT-11, RSX, RSTS, probably DOS, and, I'm sure, several other things, but not VMS. You need a VAX or Alpha processor to run that. > Thanks for any enlightenment! You're welcome. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jpl15 at panix.com Wed May 21 10:29:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Revengish URL Message-ID: This is diabolical - evil - reprehensible - unconconsionable - sick/twisted - dangerous - damn funny. http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ For those who eschew browsers - it's a series of pictures of all the usual computer and networking connectors - - - spliced onto AC Mains cords. ;{} zzzzzzzzzap - what's that *smell*???? Cheersz Nick Tesla From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 21 10:32:25 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Nope. VMS only runs on VAXen, Alphas, and (in the future perhaps) >Itaniums, While earlier versions of VMS might fit in the memory space of Actually there is no "in the future" about it, while it's not publically available, OpenVMS is *RUNNING* on the Itanium 2. In fact one of the HP employee's just posted the news that they've succeeded in clustering an Alpha running 7.3 with an Itanium 2 system! The limited public release, for developers, is still a ways away, but they've made good progress in the last few months since it first booted (plus I believe they're publicly demoing it in Europe at the moment). More information, and a timetable should be on the HP OpenVMS site somewhere. >You can run a lot of different OS's on the PDP still, from RT-11, to >RSX-11, to even some versions of BSD. Oh yes, and don't forget you can I've run RT-11 and XXDP (Diag's) on my /44. Ideally I'd like to get it up and running with RSTS/E (an OS I think Jay would like), but I don't need to worry about that at the moment as don't have access to it (Oh, well, my /73 is configured better) >run standalone things that don't require an OS, too. That's why they put >those wonderful toggle switches on the front of the cPU :). Now I just >wish I had a machine with some... Um, I'm afraid a /44 doesn't have toggle switches, it has one of the plainest fronts of all of the Unibus systems (like the /84 and /94). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Wed May 21 10:35:38 2003 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ECB8FFA.3040205@carnagevisors.net> Jay West wrote: > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS > media. No manuals, just the media. > > Several questions: > >>From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for > openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just > download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in > short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? > > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's > talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? > > Thanks for any enlightenment! > > Jay West Hi Jay, I don't know too much about OpenVMS still learning, which is the reason why I have installed it onto my vax. Yes there is a free hobbyist program, and YES get the complete media kit, as the what the hobbyist program offers you is a small sample (they don't mind you copying these btw) Though to be honest I don't think that it will run on the 11/44 unfortunately. Benjamin -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 10:38:36 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <008601c31fa6$61a45e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20030521145122.94009.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > Geeze... I KNEW I should have picked up that VAX 11/7xx when I was in IL > a few years ago with an empty cargo van *sigh* What was I thinking?? > Someday I'll find one :) Did you see the recent posting? Free 11/750 and 11/730 in Pittsburg. I've sent an inquiry as to what's left. I do not need another 11/750, but I wouldn't mind the 11/730. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 21 10:42:00 2003 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: FW: Computers, Free Message-ID: In case someone missed it in all of the noise currently on comp.os.cpm: ------------------original message--------------------- From: David L. Foreman Subject: Computers, Free Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:39:49 -0700 I have six Applied Microtechnology Z80 computers, and two Burr-Brown/Applied Microtechnology Z80 Computers available in Tucson. The BB units use the STD buss and the others have a 22/44 pin card the same size as the STD buss card (4 1/2 by 6). The cards are the same except the bus. There processor, ram memory, eprom memory, DA, AD, eprom programmer cards. I have all the manuals and softwre for them. Also 5 1/4 and 8 inch drives and power supplies for the disk drives. CP/M comes along also. Must be picked up in Tucson before the end of the month. Dave F. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 21 11:00:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Revengish URL References: Message-ID: <007901c31fb1$e401c6e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I haven't laughed so hard.... since Sellam posted that link to the guy who played with the nigerian email scammers! Re: > This is diabolical - evil - reprehensible - unconconsionable - > sick/twisted - dangerous - damn funny. > > http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 21 11:04:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: Message-ID: <008501c31fb2$397deea0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Zane wrote.. > I've run RT-11 and XXDP (Diag's) on my /44. Ideally I'd like to get it up and running with RSTS/E (an OS I think Jay would like), but I don't need to worry about that at the moment as don't have access to it (Oh, well, my /73 is configured better) I find RSTS (at first blush) a little obtuse. Maybe I haven't dug into it enough. But RT-11 with TSX+? That I LOVE! Jay West From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 21 12:07:00 2003 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030521125807.02b87488@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: > This is diabolical - evil - reprehensible - unconconsionable - >sick/twisted - dangerous - damn funny. > >http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ > >For those who eschew browsers - it's a series of pictures of all the usual >computer and networking connectors - - - spliced onto AC Mains cords. ;{} They missed one -- True Story: I had a lady walk into our store and said she needed a special cable for her Mac, but didn't know exactly what it was. I showed her several cables from our stock, and she verified the port this cable was supposed to plug into was the USB port, but she was *positive* the other end was supposed to plug into the wall. I was [evil ascii grafic follows]: ===>||<=== *this close* to saying "I'd be *more* than happy to wire that up for you, ma'am!!!" Imagining her plugging *that* bastage in... that gave all of us here at the shop quite a chuckle for a good long time... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From fernande at internet1.net Wed May 21 12:11:00 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ECBB242.7020306@internet1.net> Jay West wrote: > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS > media. No manuals, just the media. Cool, I wish I had a friend like that! > > Several questions: > >>From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for > openvms? Yes, there is a hobbiest program. I've heard conflicting information on cost, though. I think it may take a paid membership to Encompass/Decus. > If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just > download it. You can't download it. > Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in > short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? > > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's > talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? No it's not for PDP's. It's for Vax's and Alphas, but you need the correct version for the platform in question. There's a Vax version and an Alpha version...... either way, I'd grab it from him, I were you :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 21 12:14:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: Revengish URL References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030521125807.02b87488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3ECBB2D1.8090001@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? Make lemon pie instead! From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 21 12:19:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered References: Message-ID: <001001c31fbb$f96fb960$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> My atari ST, Amiga 500,1200 Use them. DD disk drives were only used for a few years so everybody went to HD production (still in use). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: Re: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered > > Any original games on those 3.5's? > > > > I generally buy my disks bulk on ebay when I see a bargain. Most of my old > > 16 bit computers use those rare 3.5 DD disks, found 500 new for $20 once.. > > Odd, most of my 16 bit machines use 8" disks... > > Are 3.5" DD floppies that hard to obtain? I've seen them on sale in high > street shops over here in the last week or so (at twice the rpice of the > HD ones, of course...). If they're getting hard to find, I'd better stock > up, as my 9114s need them... > > -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 21 12:22:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered References: <1053478715.13643.8.camel@crusader> Message-ID: <001501c31fbc$1df7d600$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> DD and HD use different magnetic media. Formatting a HD disk in a DD only drive will create a disk that loses data if its readable at all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Holland" To: "Classic Computer Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 8:58 PM Subject: Re: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered > On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Any original games on those 3.5's? > > > > > > I generally buy my disks bulk on ebay when I see a bargain. Most of my old > > > 16 bit computers use those rare 3.5 DD disks, found 500 new for $20 once.. > > > > Odd, most of my 16 bit machines use 8" disks... > > > > Are 3.5" DD floppies that hard to obtain? I've seen them on sale in high > > street shops over here in the last week or so (at twice the rpice of the > > HD ones, of course...). If they're getting hard to find, I'd better stock > > up, as my 9114s need them... > > I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At > worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. > > I know 5.25" HD disks don't work as 5.25" DS disks.. but I thought 3.5" > disks did.. > > ? (Of course, I haven't tried it recently enough to remember either.) > > David > > > > > -tony From pat at purdueriots.com Wed May 21 12:26:00 2003 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: FREE TO A GOOD HOME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Lord Isildur wrote: > So, my revised list of hardware free to a good home is as follows: > > 1 VAX 11/730 > 1 VAX 11/750 If they're not both already taken, I might be interested in one of these. I wouldn't be able to collect it for a few weeks, however, if that is a problem. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From pat at purdueriots.com Wed May 21 12:34:01 2003 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: FREE TO A GOOD HOME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, that was supposed to be private. *Hits self on head* Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ On Wed, 21 May 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2003, Lord Isildur wrote: > > > So, my revised list of hardware free to a good home is as follows: > > > > 1 VAX 11/730 > > 1 VAX 11/750 > > If they're not both already taken, I might be interested in one of these. > I wouldn't be able to collect it for a few weeks, however, if that is a > problem. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS > Information Technology at Purdue > Research Computing and Storage > http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 21 12:45:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <000801c31fc0$90426c80$5b01a8c0@athlon> > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete > set of OpenVMS media. No manuals, just the media. For free as in beer? > >From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist > free license > >for > openvms? Yes there is. See http://www.montagar.com/dfwcug/VMS_html/ >If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him > if I can just download it. Or is there a value to getting the > media from him, as to it giving me the ability to purchase a > license transfer or something... in short, is there a special > reason getting "real" media is desirable? You are allowed to get the media any way you like. Someone can give it to you, you can copy someone's distribution or you can order it from the above people (for some reasonable cost). Or you can order it from HP for commercial rates :-) Just about the only thing you cannot do is offer them for public download (and hence you should not be able to find them this way). > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he > knows what he's talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this > run on my 11/44? No. It will run on either your VAXen or your Alphas (or both, if you get both sets of distributions). Note that the CONDIST (consolidated distribution?) contains the OS and a few integrated products (clustering, networking etc.). This is one or two CDs for VAX and the same for Alpha (there is a separate CONDIST for each). The layered products are on the CONOLD (I forget what that stands for). That used to be a set of 11 CDs for VAX issued quarterly. That's probably down to 6 or less by now. There is a corresponding Alpha CONOLD but I have no idea how many CDs that is. Given that he thinks it runs on PDPs, you should make sure that you know exactly which CDs you are getting; especially if any form of consideration is changing hands. They should be fairly clearly marked (VAX or Alpha, "Binary" or "Software Product Library" and they should also indicate a month/year and CD number if the set. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 21 12:53:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "360K" diskettes are 300 Oersted. That is a measurement of magnetic coercivity. If you have no idea what that means, think of it as being like film speed in photography. "1.2M" diskettes are 600 Oersted. That is way too different from 300 Oersted for interchange to work in either direction with "360K" diskettes. "720K" 3.5" diskettes are 600 Oersted. "1.4M" 3.5" diskettes are about 750 Oersted. 600 and 750 are close enough that you can almost get away with it. You can turn a good diskette of one into a crummy diskette of the other. What part of that is hard to understand? I especially liked the old ads for the punches, particularly the ad where the guy could "PROVE" that the diskettes were the same, because he had measured them with a micrometer. > In many of the cases, the disk is usually hosed after this and won't take > a format back to HD anymore. Fortunately, there is no damage that formatting can do that can't be undone by bulk erasing. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 13:08:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: FREE TO A GOOD HOME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521180642.13665.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Sorry, that was supposed to be private. > > *Hits self on head* Ah, well. As it turns out, I wrote to that guy, too. He told me that someone else from Columbus had already spoken for the DEC stuff... he gave me the name - the guy sits across the hall from me! This co-worker has some (several) Alpha 2100s... from talking to me, he's gathering interest in older stuff... soon he'll be ready to join the list. What he _really_ wants is a CI750 to hook up to his Star Coupler. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 13:12:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <001001c31fbb$f96fb960$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030521180815.65352.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- TeoZ wrote: > My atari ST, Amiga 500,1200 Use them. DD disk drives were only used for a > few years so everybody went to HD production (still in use). I also have a Zenith 8-bit laptop that has a pair of pop-up DD drives. Mine has a DOS3.3 boot disk with MS-DOS Kermit on it. I also have a packet driver for a Xircom PE3 - I use it as a portable terminal. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed May 21 13:40:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:47 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That clarifies it.. Gee, more junk my wife will love me for wanting to buy. :-) Thanks, David On Wed, 21 May 2003, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > "360K" diskettes are 300 Oersted. That is a measurement of magnetic > coercivity. If you have no idea what that means, think of it as being > like film speed in photography. > > "1.2M" diskettes are 600 Oersted. That is way too different from 300 > Oersted for interchange to work in either direction with > "360K" diskettes. > > "720K" 3.5" diskettes are 600 Oersted. > > "1.4M" 3.5" diskettes are about 750 Oersted. > > 600 and 750 are close enough that you can almost get away with it. You > can turn a good diskette of one into a crummy diskette of the other. > > What part of that is hard to understand? > I especially liked the old ads for the punches, particularly the ad where > the guy could "PROVE" that the diskettes were the same, because he had > measured them with a micrometer. > > > > In many of the cases, the disk is usually hosed after this and won't take > > a format back to HD anymore. > Fortunately, there is no damage that formatting can do that can't be > undone by bulk erasing. From acme at ao.net Wed May 21 14:01:00 2003 From: acme at ao.net (acme@ao.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: OpenVMS software. Message-ID: <200305211900.h4LJ0SrV004510@eola.ao.net> Hi -- Funny, I just did the same thing with a VaxStation 3100 model 76 which was running netbsd . . . The OpenVMS Hobbyist site (www.montagar.com/hobbyist/) has a number of links to OpenVMS software. Later -- Glen 0/0 > Finally sorted out the licenses, and now have OpenVMS installed on my > MicroVAX 3100 80 (it was running netbsd) > Cool, learning vms is *fun* well its a challenge. > > Does anyone know a good source for software for the VAX at all.. > > Benjamin From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 21 16:00:01 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <008601c31fa6$61a45e20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <000701c31fdb$dd501de0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Geeze... I KNEW I should have picked up that VAX 11/7xx when > I was in IL a few years ago with an empty cargo van *sigh* > What was I thinking?? Someday I'll find one :) There's a VAX-11/780 on ebay right now - somewhat expensive for an AS-IS ... -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 21 16:54:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: from "Jay West" at May 21, 2003 11:01:22 AM Message-ID: <200305212152.h4LLqoWC009320@shell1.aracnet.com> Jay West wrote: > Zane wrote.. > > I've run RT-11 and XXDP (Diag's) on my /44. Ideally I'd like to get it up > > and running with RSTS/E (an OS I think Jay would like), but I don't need to > > worry about that at the moment as don't have access to it (Oh, well, my /73 > > is configured better) > > I find RSTS (at first blush) a little obtuse. Maybe I haven't dug into it > enough. But RT-11 with TSX+? That I LOVE! Strange, I'd have figured that the strong BASIC nature of the OS would appeal to you, given some of the HP stuff you mess with. OTOH, when you throw in the RSX and RT-11 runtimes, it does get a little unusual, but that's part of what makes it appealing to me :^) Zane From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Wed May 21 16:57:20 2003 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ECB97BC.5040704@Vishay.com> Jay, you didn't see a lot of messages from me recently because I am pretty busy with my job, which is OpenVMS support, mostly for European sites of the company I am working for. I don't think you can download everything that is on "official" VMS media. Even if you could, you would need some bandwidth and/or time: the VMS kit V7.2-1 (granted, my copy is for Alpha, not for VAX processors) is one CD for the O/S, another for the firmware (which would not be required for a VAX), one for documentation, and two for layered products. There is a separate kit, called the "Software Products Library" and "Online Documentation Library", which consists of 18 (eighteen!) CDs. If that's what you were offered, you'll certainly prefer pickup over download. As the "documentation" in the kit or CD descriptions implies, you may not need manuals after you have the CDs. And, definitely no, VMS does not run on PDPs. You can currently buy it for VAX or Alpha architectures (the latter now also being on-topic), and a port to Itanium is on its way (first booted in last January). VMS does, however, have a design that is based on and closely related to RSX-11M, an operating system for PDP-11s. Hope that helps! Regards, Andreas Jay West wrote: > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS > media. No manuals, just the media. > > Several questions: > >>From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for > openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just > download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in > short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? > > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's > talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? > > Thanks for any enlightenment! > > Jay West -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From oldcomp at cox.net Wed May 21 17:30:01 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: The very first personal computers - How many are left? References: Message-ID: <3ECBFDC9.8010409@cox.net> Nice...! I've never seen the rear or underside views before, are those tube sockets original equipment? -Bryan John Tinker wrote: >Pictures of Scelbi #4100-0015: >http://schema-root.org/museum/electronic/computer/_jft/scelbi/ > >John Tinker From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 21 17:34:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: co-worker? In-Reply-To: <000001c31e51$da829100$835dda9e@cna0796096> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030521183050.10a7a382@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> No, this is a mail list of about 400 people. One of them MIGHT be that Steve but the other 399 definitely aren't. Joe At 04:59 PM 5/19/03 -0500, you wrote: >Is this the Steve Loboyko who used to work at Sola? > >If so, give me a response. > > >Chuck Schaefer >Sr. Process Designer >Texas Instruments From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Wed May 21 17:44:00 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ECB97BC.5040704@Vishay.com> Message-ID: <000901c31fea$63864ca0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> take me off this fucking list ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Freiherr" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Re: openvms... another question > Jay, > > you didn't see a lot of messages from me recently because I am pretty > busy with my job, which is OpenVMS support, mostly for European sites of > the company I am working for. > > I don't think you can download everything that is on "official" VMS > media. Even if you could, you would need some bandwidth and/or time: the > VMS kit V7.2-1 (granted, my copy is for Alpha, not for VAX processors) > is one CD for the O/S, another for the firmware (which would not be > required for a VAX), one for documentation, and two for layered products. > > There is a separate kit, called the "Software Products Library" and > "Online Documentation Library", which consists of 18 (eighteen!) CDs. If > that's what you were offered, you'll certainly prefer pickup over download. > > As the "documentation" in the kit or CD descriptions implies, you may > not need manuals after you have the CDs. > > And, definitely no, VMS does not run on PDPs. You can currently buy it > for VAX or Alpha architectures (the latter now also being on-topic), and > a port to Itanium is on its way (first booted in last January). VMS > does, however, have a design that is based on and closely related to > RSX-11M, an operating system for PDP-11s. > > Hope that helps! > > Regards, > Andreas > > Jay West wrote: > > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of OpenVMS > > media. No manuals, just the media. > > > > Several questions: > > > >>From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license for > > openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can just > > download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in > > short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? > > > > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what he's > > talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? > > > > Thanks for any enlightenment! > > > > Jay West > > -- > Andreas Freiherr > Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany > http://www.vishay.com From mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com Wed May 21 17:47:15 2003 From: mthomps5 at columbus.rr.com (Thompson Family) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: <007401c31fa5$2d23ed60$023ca8c0@blafleur> Message-ID: <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> take me off this fucking list ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Lafleur" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:27 AM Subject: RE: openvms... another question > Jay. > > There is a free hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but you can't download the > actual files from the web. You need to obtain actual media from > somewhere. So, you SHOULD grab this from your friend. > > OpenVMS comes in two flavors: "VAX" and "Alpha". The "VAX" version runs > on VAX machines (MicroVAX II, 2000, 3100 series, bigger VAXen, etc), and > the "Alpha" version runs on Alpha boxes. No VMS will run on PDP's such > as an 11/44. > > Hope this helps, > > - Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:57 AM > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: openvms... another question > > > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of > OpenVMS media. No manuals, just the media. > > Several questions: > > >From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license > >for > openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can > just download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as > to it giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or > something... in short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is > desirable? > > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what > he's talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? > > Thanks for any enlightenment! > > Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 17:50:31 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <20030521025114.2058.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at May 20, 3 07:51:14 pm Message-ID: > Many years ago Practical Electronics in the UK > published the design of a microprocessor-based system > called the CHAMP. If I remember rightly it was built > on Veroboard. I remember reading the articles in the One large piece of veroboard (stripboard for those across the Pond :-)) on top of the case for all the logic (that way you coupld probe at all the IC pins without extender cards). Another somewhat smaller piece of veroboard on top of a similar case for the CHAMP-PROG (1702 Eprom programmer). This was a 4040-based machine, of course. > school library and wishing I could build one. > > Did anyone ever build one of these ? Do the plans > still exist anywhere ? I should still have all 10 artictles for the CHAMP, CHAMP-PROG and CHAMP-UV (EPROM eraser). But don't even think of building one now -- just about all the LSI parts (CPU, RAM, memory interface, EPROMs, etc) are almost unobtainable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 17:53:35 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 20, 3 08:55:33 pm Message-ID: > I have seldom regretted the items that I purchased, but often > regretted those that I did not! I've heard that said about other collectables too, normally in the form 'You never regret the you buy, only the you don't' (where is computers, cameras, clocks, stamps, etc as appropriate). In general, I've found it to be true, at least provided the money spent on the items is not otherwise required for essentials like food, shelter, electricity, etc... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 17:57:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Preserving ancient media In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089BF@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> from "Hills, Paul" at May 21, 3 09:12:34 am Message-ID: > Thanks for that. > > I tried simply zipping up a .WAV file created by the program I mentioned and > it compressed from 544kb down to 3.4kb. The original data file was 409 > bytes, so although the result is 8 times bigger than the data file, storage > is not too much of a problem. Do just check that you can expand this back to a WAV file (shouldn't be a proble, zip is not a lossy compression method) and that you can replay the WAV file into the computer concerned. No point in archiving data if it can't be used... > > At this compression ratio (or rather expansion I suppose), a CD could store > 80Mb of original computer data - more than was probably ever written for > some of those computers!. Indeed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 18:00:07 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed In-Reply-To: <012701c31f2e$8793c170$0100a8c0@athlon> from "Dave Brown" at May 21, 3 12:18:39 pm Message-ID: > Tom > > The DCAs (Decimal Counter Assembly) in those counters (5243 series, 5245 > series) came in low and high speed versions. The -6016 is the normal low > speed 600kHz version used in most of the count positions and provides +1224 > BCD output to the rear panel connector. The -6003 version is the option 03 > variation of it that provided 1248 BCD output with the '1' state > negative.(as opposed to the -6002 which was the same but with '1' state > positive.) > I have schematics if you need 'em- my 5245M still rolls along quite nicely > since it knows I have the service info! Yes, after I posted my reply last night, I noticed the appendix in the 5245 manual that mentioned the 1248 BCD options... AFAIK the counters are plug-compatible apart from the code used on the BCD output lines (and internally on the counter PCB, of course). So you may not need to worry about which version you actually have. The schematics are also very similar... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 18:03:05 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <1053478715.13643.8.camel@crusader> from "David Holland" at May 20, 3 08:58:34 pm Message-ID: > I thought you could use 3.5" HD/DD disks in a DS/DD drive just fine. At > worst a piece of tape over the "wrong" hole if necessary. Not if you value your data (and I do -- what's the point in writing something to disk if you don't intend to read it back again?). The coercivity of the media _is_ different between the DD and HD 3.5" disks. Not very different, but different enough that you _will_ have reliabilty problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 18:06:07 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 In-Reply-To: <002301c31fa4$d120a120$9600a8c0@Luis> from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Luis_G=F3mez?=" at May 21, 3 04:25:22 pm Message-ID: > I'm repairing an Enterprise 128. Has somebody experience repairing this computer? Not much. You've checked the obvious (PSU lines), now for the second-most-obvious -- is the CPU being clocked, and are the address and data lines changing? What about the Reset/ pin? > > I have other Enterprise 64 in perfect condition. > > 12v DC and 5v DC in board are ok > Eprom chip is ok (i exchanged it between two computer) > > I have schematic but only og memory expansion, and i/o circuit, including Dave chip. > > I need schematics of complete board. I probably hav the Enterprise schematics, but I have no idea where I put them... If you get no other replies I will see if I can find them -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 18:09:05 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030521125807.02b87488@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 21, 3 01:04:15 pm Message-ID: > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? > Stick 2 different metals into them and use them as simple cells to run CMOS circuitry? (Didn't we have a thread on this last week?) -tony From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 21 18:13:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3ECB1309.8050504@citem.org> References: <002c01c31ee3$54a7d300$0400fea9@game> <002c01c31ee3$54a7d300$0400fea9@game> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030521154619.00a40c70@pop-server.socal.rr.com> The point of storage is to store stuff, unless its full what you are wasting is space. When your storage is totally full, and more storage isn't possible, THEN you have to start making choices. OTOH if you are a museum why not buy some space in a salt mine or something out in the boonies? From vaxzilla at jarai.org Wed May 21 18:16:17 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <007401c31fa5$2d23ed60$023ca8c0@blafleur> <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > take me off this fucking list Wow, you must really hate OpenVMS! The unsubscribe info and other list relevant info are included in the headers of all the messages posted to the list: | List-Unsubscribe: , | You can get off the list by either using the URL above, or by sending mail to cctalk-request@classiccmp.org address with "unsubscribe" as the subject line. -brian. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 21 18:19:17 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: <007401c31fa5$2d23ed60$023ca8c0@blafleur> <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <001e01c31fed$420dd9a0$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I removed this person from BOTH lists. However, I just have to comment... I find it rather incredulous that this person was smart enough to figure out how to subscribe to not one, but BOTH views of this list, yet couldn't figure out how to unsubscribe. Even moreso, they must have missed the clear indications on the website of who to contact for such stuff. And I guess they couldn't see the headers on every email they get that says how to unsubscribe... etc. etc.. GRRRR Grumpy List Admin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thompson Family" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: Re: openvms... another question > take me off this f-----g list From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed May 21 18:22:17 2003 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> References: <007401c31fa5$2d23ed60$023ca8c0@blafleur> <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <200305211606580640.00271E02@192.168.42.129> If you would take the time to RTFM, you would know how to unsubscribe yourself! *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 21-May-03 at 18:43 Thompson Family wrote: >take me off this fucking list >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Lafleur" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:27 AM >Subject: RE: openvms... another question > > >> Jay. >> >> There is a free hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but you can't download the >> actual files from the web. You need to obtain actual media from >> somewhere. So, you SHOULD grab this from your friend. >> >> OpenVMS comes in two flavors: "VAX" and "Alpha". The "VAX" version runs >> on VAX machines (MicroVAX II, 2000, 3100 series, bigger VAXen, etc), and >> the "Alpha" version runs on Alpha boxes. No VMS will run on PDP's such >> as an 11/44. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> - Bob >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Jay West >> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:57 AM >> To: cctech@classiccmp.org >> Subject: openvms... another question >> >> >> Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... >> >> A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of >> OpenVMS media. No manuals, just the media. >> >> Several questions: >> >> >From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license >> >for >> openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can >> just download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as >> to it giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or >> something... in short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is >> desirable? >> >> Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what >> he's talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? >> >> Thanks for any enlightenment! >> >> Jay West -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 18:25:42 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <001001c31fbb$f96fb960$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> from "TeoZ" at May 21, 3 01:11:04 pm Message-ID: > My atari ST, Amiga 500,1200 Use them. DD disk drives were only used for a > few years so everybody went to HD production (still in use). 2 points : 1) The HP 9114 drive that I mentioned used _original_ DD drives, rotating at 600rpm. When these drives were designed, the HD disk hadn't been thought of... 2) Even now, HD drives have a switch to detect the hole in the HD disk, and one thing this switch does is to change the head write current to cater for the different coercivity of the DD and HD media. Have you got _proof_ (either from schematics, or by actually measuring the write current in an opertation drive) that the write current is the same for both DD and HD disks in a correctly-functioning name-brand drive? Becasue I am darn sure it isn't! -tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 21 18:29:00 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Needs PC-8300 Manual was Fw: Week's Finds Message-ID: <00ea01c31ff0$9a8addf0$8e0cdd40@oemcomputer> Can anyone help this person? Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gebreselassie, Daniel" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Week's Finds > Hi > > I would like to get the manual of the NEC PC-8300 note book used to monitor > HPLC. Would you please tell me where I find the manual. > > Thank you > > > Daniel Gebreselassie, Ph.D. > CRI, Center I, > Children's National Medical Center > 111, Michigan Avenue NW > Washington DC 20010 > Phone: 202-884-2710 (O) > 240-305-1720 (c) From jtinker at coin.org Wed May 21 18:54:00 2003 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: The very first personal computers - How many are left? In-Reply-To: <3ECBFDC9.8010409@cox.net> Message-ID: Actually, they're not tube sockets, but 11 pin relay sockets, for I/O. -- JT 5/21/2003 6:29:29 PM, Bryan Blackburn wrote: >Nice...! I've never seen the rear or underside views before, are those >tube sockets original equipment? > >-Bryan > >John Tinker wrote: > >>Pictures of Scelbi #4100-0015: >>http://schema-root.org/museum/electronic/computer/_jft/scelbi/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 21 18:59:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > My atari ST, Amiga 500,1200 Use them. DD disk drives were only used for a > > few years so everybody went to HD production (still in use). > 2 points : > 1) The HP 9114 drive that I mentioned used _original_ DD drives, rotating > at 600rpm. When these drives were designed, the HD disk hadn't been > thought of... > 2) Even now, HD drives have a switch to detect the hole in the HD disk, > and one thing this switch does is to change the head write current to > cater for the different coercivity of the DD and HD media. > > Have you got _proof_ (either from schematics, or by actually measuring > the write current in an opertation drive) that the write current is the > same for both DD and HD disks in a correctly-functioning name-brand > drive? Becasue I am darn sure it isn't! No, but "DD" drives initially, for obvious reasons, did not have a switch. Many people who were oblivious to differences in reliability used HD diskettes in DD machines, and thought that they worked correctly. I think that THAT is what he meant by "everybody went to HD" in reference to his Atari, Amiga, etc. experiences. And, I can easily show you "HD" drives that do not have a switch! IBM did not put a switch in their original "1.44" drives in PS/2's. Some users of those claim that DD diskettes work correctly. (and then later complain about the COMPUTER being "unreliable") At no point has the price differential been so extreme as to justify using the wrong diskette on a regular basis. Admittedly, there can be "emergencies", where the correct diskette is unavailable that might result in a need to make do with a wrong one. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 21 19:07:00 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered References: Message-ID: <3ECC1465.7A3A7C8C@rain.org> This brings up an interesting point; how do you tell the difference between DD and HD diskettes? My usual method was to try and format them on a DD drive, and if they formatted, they were DD :). Is there a better method? "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > At no point has the price differential been so extreme as to justify using > the wrong diskette on a regular basis. Admittedly, there can be > "emergencies", where the correct diskette is unavailable that might result > in a need to make do with a wrong one. -- ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 21 19:26:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <001e01c31fed$420dd9a0$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > I removed this person from BOTH lists. However, I just have to comment... I > find it rather incredulous that this person was smart enough to figure out > how to subscribe to not one, but BOTH views of this list, yet couldn't > figure out how to unsubscribe. Even moreso, they must have missed the clear > indications on the website of who to contact for such stuff. And I guess > they couldn't see the headers on every email they get that says how to > unsubscribe... etc. etc.. GRRRR He might've been slightly mental. His behavior was certainly erratic enough. For that matter, I may well be too :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From kempfj2 at rpi.edu Wed May 21 19:33:00 2003 From: kempfj2 at rpi.edu (Jesse Kempf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > He might've been slightly mental. His behavior was certainly erratic > enough. > > For that matter, I may well be too :) Yes, if by "erratic" you mean ignorant and annoying... =) There's eccentric...and then...there's that guy. Cheers, Jesse Kempf ECSE Network Administrator RPIMUG Campus Liason RPI Electronics Club Project Coordinator EE, RPI Class of '06 Goto, n.: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. -- Ray Simard From ssj152 at charter.net Wed May 21 20:00:01 2003 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question References: <007401c31fa5$2d23ed60$023ca8c0@blafleur> <000e01c31fea$664f30a0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: <067f01c31ffd$4e5b0240$0200a8c0@cosmo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thompson Family" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: Re: openvms... another question > take me off this fucking list Jay West What's the matter, headers got you stumped? Don't let the "door" hit you in the ass on the way out! Stuart Johnson From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed May 21 20:04:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <3ECC1465.7A3A7C8C@rain.org> References: <3ECC1465.7A3A7C8C@rain.org> Message-ID: <1053565402.30176.3.camel@crusader> I always thought the difference was the number of hole's at the end of the disk.. One of the hole's is for write protect. The others presence (or absence) indicates HD, or DD. (HD disks had the second hole) But then again, I'm the guy who (mistakenly) thought 3.5" HD disks would work as DD. :-) David On Wed, 2003-05-21 at 20:05, Marvin Johnston wrote: > This brings up an interesting point; how do you tell the difference > between DD and HD diskettes? My usual method was to try and format them > on a DD drive, and if they formatted, they were DD :). Is there a better > method? > > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > At no point has the price differential been so extreme as to justify using > > the wrong diskette on a regular basis. Admittedly, there can be > > "emergencies", where the correct diskette is unavailable that might result > > in a need to make do with a wrong one. > > -- > ------------------------------------------- > ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup > http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 21 20:07:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <3ECC1465.7A3A7C8C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Marvin Johnston wrote: > This brings up an interesting point; how do you tell the difference > between DD and HD diskettes? My usual method was to try and format them > on a DD drive, and if they formatted, they were DD :). Is there a better > method? YES! That method will let some slip through that "almost" work. 3.5": Find one of each that are known, and labeled by the manufacturer. Sometimes the labeling will refer to the UNFORMATTED capacity and say 1M v 2M. Find the write protect hole. Notice that on the HD diskette, there is another similar hole in one of the other corners. Go with whether or not the manufacturer put in that other "media identification" hole. Once HD came out, every RESPONSIBLE manufacturer of HD drives put in a switch to check for that hole. But if you have IBM equipment, then YOU have to check. Also for 3.5": 2.8M (4M unformatted) (Barium ferrite?) has a different media identification hole. Floptical (20M) has a different media identification hole. Although LS120 drives will also take "regular" 3.5" diskettes, they are thoroughly different in appearance. 5.25": There is usually a slight difference in color. Also, when HD came out, they discontinued reinforcing the center hole. Therefore, if there is no reinforcement, then it is EITHER a very early "low" density diskette, or is an HD diskette. If there IS a reinforcement, then it is either a DD diskette, or it is an unreinforced diskette that somebody added a reinforcement to, by using an aftermarket jig, such as from Inmac, or the Berkeley Microcomputer (later Xenosoft) "Flip-Jig". Also watch for hard sectored diskettes (more than one hole in the mylar goes by the index hole in the jacket if you manually turn it.) 8": I don't think that there are any density differences, but single and double sided diskettes are different. The position of the index hole is different. 3": I don't think that there are any density differences, but single and double sided diskettes are different. I don't remember the difference - holes? 3.25": All the same. But watch out that there are a lot of alignment diskettes extant, and it would be a shame to wipe one of those for routine data storage. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 21 20:10:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 21 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > > take me off this fucking list On Wed, 21 May 2003, Brian Chase wrote: > Wow, you must really hate OpenVMS! Does he know that Open VMS can be used for things other than BBS? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 21 20:17:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: <1053565402.30176.3.camel@crusader> Message-ID: On 21 May 2003, David Holland wrote: > I always thought the difference was the number of hole's at the > end of the disk.. One of the hole's is for write protect. The others > presence (or absence) indicates HD, or DD. (HD disks had the second > hole) That's right > But then again, I'm the guy who (mistakenly) thought 3.5" HD disks > would work as DD. :-) They will. just not very reliably. From owad at applefritter.com Wed May 21 20:55:01 2003 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: A car-related computer? Message-ID: <20030522015348.19900@mail.earthlink.net> Anybody know what this is? It has a dial for cylinders, a disal for meas. val. (measurement value, I presume), switches for 4 cylinders and 8 cylinders, a switch with options "car", "ci", and "sim", a bnc connector labeled "osc. out", etc. The display is 4 alphanumeric LEDs. On power up, it displays "Cn00" (where 'n' is all four vertical segments and the topmost horizontal segment). I've posted pictures of the unit and some of the cards here: There isn't any brand name on it and many of the boards look custom. A few though look like like custom prints. I appreciate any help. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 21 21:29:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: A car-related computer? In-Reply-To: <20030522015348.19900@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Tom Owad wrote: > Anybody know what this is? > > It has a dial for cylinders, a disal for meas. val. (measurement value, I > presume), switches for 4 cylinders and 8 cylinders, a switch with options > "car", "ci", and "sim", a bnc connector labeled "osc. out", etc. The > display is 4 alphanumeric LEDs. On power up, it displays "Cn00" (where > 'n' is all four vertical segments and the topmost horizontal segment). > > I've posted pictures of the unit and some of the cards here: > > > > There isn't any brand name on it and many of the boards look custom. A > few though look like like custom prints. Well, judging by the "W. Germany" label, it was probably made during the mid-1980's (a check of the chip date codes can verify this). It looks like it may be a pre-production beta prototype. Or that could be the way they manufactured it. As for its function, it obviously does some sort of car engine analysis. Maybe some of our Deutsche freundin can help identify it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 21 22:17:00 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: A car-related computer? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "May 21, 3 07:24:29 pm" Message-ID: <200305220328.UAA08774@floodgap.com> > Maybe some of our Deutsche freundin can help identify it? You have a German girlfriend???? :-) *scnr* -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 21 22:59:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: A car-related computer? In-Reply-To: <200305220328.UAA08774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Maybe some of our Deutsche freundin can help identify it? > > You have a German girlfriend???? :-) *scnr* Damn it! Time to re-enroll in German school ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 22 00:49:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Sony model OA-D34V-22 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <3ECB97BC.5040704@Vishay.com> References: <002f01c31fa0$dc45dba0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030521224404.03227a50@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Nothing so fun as moving, you get to find your stuff all over again. Part of my current no sane reason to have it, are about 400 boxes of NOS replacement parts, mostly Apple, mostly useless like 13" RGB main boards. A few look interesting, ie I found a couple of new in the bag Sony model OA-D34V-22 floppy drives. Anybody know what these go in, I am thinking just the 128k, but one of the web hits says Lisa 2. Anybody have ideas on what I should do with the old small monitor parts? (I live in Socal). From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 22 01:32:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS Message-ID: OK, a bit of an odd question here, but I'm wondering what people think as I'm used to a PWS 433au. A co-worker of mine just bought a VAXstation 4000/90 and a DEC 3000/400. She wants to use one of them as a Mail Server running OpenVMS. The VAX looks to have 104MB, the Alpha looks to only have 96MB. Any idea on which would work best for her? Part of what has me concerned is the lack of RAM on the Alpha. If she uses the VAX, it will probably end up running V7.3, if the Alpha probably V7.2-1H1. DECwindows won't be loaded, which will help get the Alpha down to a better memory footprint. Oh, she'll probably also want to run a Webserver on the system so that the mail can be accessed via the web. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wmsmith at earthlink.net Thu May 22 01:53:00 2003 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:48 2005 Subject: Sony model OA-D34V-22 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030521224404.03227a50@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <001101c3202e$99bd2480$0640cd18@D73KSM11> > Nothing so fun as moving, you get to find your stuff all over again. > > Part of my current no sane reason to have it, are about 400 > boxes of NOS > replacement parts, mostly Apple, mostly useless like 13" RGB > main boards. A > few look interesting, ie I found a couple of new in the bag > Sony model > OA-D34V-22 floppy drives. Anybody know what these go in, I am > thinking just > the 128k, but one of the web hits says Lisa 2. > It's the FDD for the Lisa 2 and the 128K. The one in one of my Lisas is a pull from a dead 128K and the other is OEM - both are the same as your model. -W From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu May 22 01:59:01 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: STAG Electronics Ganged Programmer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20030516152703.3cbfdbde@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030516152703.3cbfdbde@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <9fb276f64b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.16.20030516152703.3cbfdbde@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Joe wrote: > I have a Stag 39M100 with one plug-in for programming EPROMs and another > for programming embedded micro-processors. I found the docs for it on a > site in France. Stag is utterly worthless when it comes to support. I'll > never buy or recommend anything from them. Glen G has a bigger gang > programmer and I think he has a real manual for it. I've got a Stag PP40 "MOS Gang Programmer" with a 40M100 module. Stag were, as you said, quite useless. Who would pay ?550 for a COM port upgrade for it? Especially seeing as ELNEC are selling the LabProg (IIRC) universal programmer for around ?300 via Crownhill Associates (crownhill.co.uk). Now, as far as I'm concerned, ELNEC's support is second-to-none - I sent them a bug report, two hours later I had an official workaround from them and an email from the software guy - "One of my team misread the datasheet and entered the wrong ID number into our software. I'll fix the bug ready for the next release". IMHO, any company that can manage to reply within a few hours *AND* provide a usable workaround is well worth supporting. As for the PP40, well, I just use it to copy EPROMs. Shame it doesn't support as many devices as the PrEPROM, though. I have noticed that B&K Precision are rebranding Elnec programmers. If anyone's got the Stagcom software for the PP40 and/or a comm-port upgrade module for it, please email me! I want that comms module! On the plus side, Dataman did offer me ?100 if I traded the PP40 in for one of their "S4" or "Dataman 48" programmers. Hmm... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 22 03:39:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >OK, a bit of an odd question here, but I'm wondering what people think as I'm used to a PWS 433au. > >A co-worker of mine just bought a VAXstation 4000/90 and a DEC 3000/400. She wants to use one of them as a Mail Server running OpenVMS. The VAX looks to have 104MB, the Alpha looks to only have 96MB. Any idea on which would work best for her? Part of what has me concerned is the lack of RAM on the Alpha. If she uses the VAX, it will probably end up running V7.3, if the Alpha probably V7.2-1H1. DECwindows won't be loaded, which will help get the Alpha down to a better memory footprint. > >Oh, she'll probably also want to run a Webserver on the system so that the mail can be accessed via the web. Make that a VAXstation 4000/60. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 22 03:43:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 08:30:41 CEST References: Message-ID: <20030522103041.P213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.22 08:30 Zane H. Healy wrote: > A co-worker of mine just bought a VAXstation 4000/90 and a DEC > 3000/400. She wants to use one of them as a Mail Server running > OpenVMS. The VAX looks to have 104MB, the Alpha looks to only have > 96MB. The DEC 3000-[456789]00 need very special 100 pin 40 bit ECC SIMMs. One memory bank consists of 8 SIMMs. This gives a memory bandwith of [viewing ek-d3sys-pm.ps.gz] 427 MB/s (model 400) to 640 MB/s (model 800). That is a lot for a 10 year old design. The low end DEC 3000-300 are in the range of 200 MB/s to 329 MB/s. 96MB is not much for an Alpha... The VS4k90 maxes out at 128 MB RAM. Are you sure it has 104 MB RAM? The VS4k90 has 8 SIMM sockets and one bank consists of 4 SIMMs. It needs special 80 pin ECC SIMMs. It can take 4 MB or 16 MB SIMMs. So the machine can have 16, 32, 64, 80 or 128 MB RAM. Maybe it is a VS4k60? The VS4k60 has 8 MB on board and 6 SIMM sockets. It takes the same RAM as the VS4k90 and one bank consists of 2 SIMMs. So you get 104 MB RAM with the 8 MB on board 6 x 16 MB SIMMs. The VS4k60 has 12 VUPs and the VS4k90 24 VUPs (or 30, don't remember). If it is a VS4k60, it would be best to epay some RAM for the DEC 3000-400 and use it. If it is a VS4k90, well, the DEC 3000-400 eats about twice (!) as much electricity as the VS4k90. So if this is importand... Depending on the load, the VS4k90 may be better as it has more RAM and the VAX is _very_ memory efficient. 128 MB is a _lot_ for a VAX. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 22 06:16:01 2003 From: jkunz at maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030522112016.GB15095@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:38:00AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Make that a VAXstation 4000/60. Use the DEC 300-400, it will run circles arond the VS4k60. But keep an eye open for more RAM. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 22 07:50:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522124939.19870.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> > I should still have all 10 artictles for the CHAMP, > CHAMP-PROG and > CHAMP-UV (EPROM eraser). But don't even think of > building one now -- just > about all the LSI parts (CPU, RAM, memory interface, > EPROMs, etc) are > almost unobtainable. That would certainly add to the challenge of building one, not to mention the timeframe. I did see a 4040 and some 1702's on ebay the other day. Could the other parts be emulated somehow ? Dave The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mvg1 at earthlink.net Thu May 22 08:05:01 2003 From: mvg1 at earthlink.net (Mark Grieshaber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Free (or trash): 53 QIC tapes Message-ID: <20030522130639.GA24444@earthlink.net> Free (you pay shipping), or trash by end of May: Found a box of 53 used quarter-inch cartridge tapes hiding in my home. These are LOW CAPACITY tapes (450 feet/137.2 meters), almost all are 3M brand DC 300XL/P tapes, some few are other brands. All are used (contents unknown, apparently backups). Storage boxes are generally present, in mostly good condition (some cracked), but have been written on with marker. All have been stored inside. You are welcome to as many as you like; tell me your shipping address and I'll tell you shipping costs (USPS Parcel Post (calculated via www.usps.com)). Shipping originates from zip 63132. No cost for packing and shipping, only USPS out-of-pocket costs. I fully expect a thundering silence; I just hate pitching them without at least asking. Mark Grieshaber mvg1@earthlink.net From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 22 08:42:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Sony model OA-D34V-22 floppy drive Message-ID: >ie I found a couple of new in the bag Sony model >OA-D34V-22 floppy drives. Anybody know what these go in, I am thinking just >the 128k, but one of the web hits says Lisa 2. If you are interested in unloading one of those Sony drives, I'd be happy to take one. I have an original external 400K drive for the Mac, and its drive it dead. IIRC, it is the same drive as used in the 128, so if you wanted to unload a spare, I'd love to get my external drive working again. -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 08:54:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool Message-ID: <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering Iron into an SMT hot air tool? The basic gist is that you remove the rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. I have used $800 commercial versions of this at work with great effect. I have done some initial digging and have come up with the following: RS De-soldering Tool - $10 new Weller De-soldering Attachment - in junk box Aquarium Pump - $7 - $70 new So... I can use one of my Wellers as the heat source, or I can drop $10 for a dedicated (non-temp-controlled) unit. What I'm hung up on is that I have no idea what capacity pump to buy. The $70 pump is somewhat large, but is adjustable. The $7 pump is too small to enclose a golf ball. There are numerous models in-between, including several with dual taps. So... has anyone here had any experience building such things? If I didn't read about it here, I'm baffled where else I would have run across the info. Thanks, -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ipscone at msdsite.com Thu May 22 09:25:00 2003 From: ipscone at msdsite.com (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Sony model OA-D34V-22 floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53169.130.76.32.16.1053613472.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> >>ie I found a couple of new in the bag Sony model >>OA-D34V-22 floppy drives. Anybody know what these go in, I am thinking >> just >>the 128k, but one of the web hits says Lisa 2. > I found something similar but I believe a little earlier. http://www.msdsite.com/forums/upload.php?&upload=zoom&pid=188 From mtapley at swri.edu Thu May 22 09:54:00 2003 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > On Wed, 21 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: >> > take me off this fucking list > >On Wed, 21 May 2003, Brian Chase wrote: >> Wow, you must really hate OpenVMS! > >Does he know that Open VMS can be used for things other than BBS? Generally agreed, except for the possibility that someone else was posting using his account (ie he left his email machine accessible to an even younger sibling, or some such. I note the plain-text equivalent, "Thompson *Family* (emphasis added)). That post shows even less consideration than his normal posts, imho. But if that was actually him, I can't say I regret the loss. - Mark From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu May 22 11:10:01 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1239a9f64b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering > Iron into an SMT hot air tool? I have no idea, but there was a thread on the PICList along those lines. The original idea was somewhere on www.usbmicro.com ISTR. > The basic gist is that you remove the > rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and > pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The > pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates > heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. Theoretically it should work... See below for my - ahem - "test results"... > I have done some initial digging and have come up with the following: > > RS De-soldering Tool - $10 new > Weller De-soldering Attachment - in junk box > Aquarium Pump - $7 - $70 new > > So... I can use one of my Wellers as the heat source, or I can drop $10 > for a dedicated (non-temp-controlled) unit. I spent $10 on a dedicated unit, then bought a cheapo 30W soldering iron and bolted the desoldering attachment onto it. > What I'm hung up on is that > I have no idea what capacity pump to buy. The $70 pump is somewhat large, > but is adjustable. The $7 pump is too small to enclose a golf ball. > There are numerous models in-between, including several with dual taps. I tried using a 20-something PSI (allegedly) air compressor. Made by Aerosol Products (Colchester), 87 Eccleston Sq., London, S.W.1. $DEITY knows if they still exist - there's a phone number (?) on there - "Victoria 1676". The model number on it is "SCI" (may be "SC1", "5C1" or "5CI"), serial number 1/6290. Painted red with a metal toggle switch on one side (power) and a 7mm-ish pipe on one side for the output. I guess the air pressure is too high for the steel wool to heat the air up enough... > So... has anyone here had any experience building such things? If I > didn't read about it here, I'm baffled where else I would have run > across the info. PICList? Google Search? BTW, if you do find a pump that works, post the specs of it somewhere! IME, the wire wool tends to go black (oxidise?) pretty quickly, I don't have a clue what metal it's made out of, though. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 22 11:17:01 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c3207d$7dfb06f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > A co-worker of mine just bought a VAXstation 4000/90 and a > DEC 3000/400. She wants to use one of them as a Mail Server > running OpenVMS. The VAX looks to have 104MB, the Alpha > looks to only have 96MB. Any idea on which would work best > for her? Part of what has me concerned is the lack of RAM on I suspect that either would work. I run a VS4000-90A here at home and it hums along quite nicely doing the odd compile and running a web server. If I let the your hordes get to the webserver I suspect the connection would die well before the VAX! The Alpha will be perhaps 2-3 times faster (at least going by the SPEC numbers I can find for related models and guessing a little based on frequencies). 104MB is certainly enough for the VAX to happily function as a workstation - the additional cpu and memory load from a webserver and mail server will be negligible - at least for home use, I'd not plan on running a large enterprise based on this! I forget exactly what kind of memory the DEC 3000 took, but it's probably cheap enough on ebay these days that it can be maxed out if it's a problem. Either OpenVMS or NetBSD would probably be fine for this usage (although be sure to get the NetBSD 1.6 or so that fixed the non-fatal overwriting of part of the console flash ... I think it was the VS4000-9x that was hit). I use the OSU webserver under OpenVMS and Apache under Solaris. As a single user I'm unable to cause either to die under load :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From oldcomp at cox.net Thu May 22 11:21:01 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool References: <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECCF8CE.7000702@cox.net> I have been using commercial hot gas soldering equipment professionally for many years. One of my machines, which I recently sold, cost over $8000 new! Of all my experience with hot gas soldering, my favorite tool by far is a butane powered Weller soldering iron with a hot air tip; a PyroPen mini hot air/soldering iron, WST2. (Google search found: http://www.lashen.com/vendors/CooperTools/Weller_cordless_solder.asp#wst2 looks like the PSI100K might even be better than the one I have, and cheaper too.) Although you may not want to use it to replace a large BGA chip (even though it can be done if you are careful), it is great for the smaller components like resistors, caps, and small chips. It's main advantages are that it is low cost, lightweight, has ample heat, and adjustable output. I have used mine to do nearly everything I bought the expensive Ungar machine for, which is one reason I sold it. Although it MIGHT work, what you have described sounds clumsy and under powered, but then I'm used to my 2 oz. tool! For the small cost of the cordless hot air/irons, to me, it wouldn't even be worth the time to fiddle with a homemade kludge. -Bryan Ethan Dicks wrote: >Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering >Iron into an SMT hot air tool? The basic gist is that you remove the >rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and >pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The >pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates >heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. I have > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 22 12:09:00 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <3ECCF8CE.7000702@cox.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Bryan Blackburn wrote: > I have been using commercial hot gas soldering equipment professionally > for many years. One of my machines, which I recently sold, cost over > $8000 new! Of all my experience with hot gas soldering, my favorite tool > by far is a butane powered Weller soldering iron with a hot air tip; a > PyroPen mini hot air/soldering iron, WST2. (Google search found: > http://www.lashen.com/vendors/CooperTools/Weller_cordless_solder.asp#wst2 > looks like the PSI100K might even be better than the one I have, and > cheaper too.) Although you may not want to use it to replace a large BGA > chip (even though it can be done if you are careful), it is great for > the smaller components like resistors, caps, and small chips. It's main > advantages are that it is low cost, lightweight, has ample heat, and > adjustable output. I have used mine to do nearly everything I bought the > expensive Ungar machine for, which is one reason I sold it. > > Although it MIGHT work, what you have described sounds clumsy and under > powered, but then I'm used to my 2 oz. tool! For the small cost of the > cordless hot air/irons, to me, it wouldn't even be worth the time to > fiddle with a homemade kludge. > > -Bryan > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering > >Iron into an SMT hot air tool? The basic gist is that you remove the > >rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and > >pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The > >pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates > >heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. I have > > > > > > > A regular hot air gun (perhaps a little clumsy and overpowered) works very well for larger SM soldering/desoldering. I think you will have trouble getting a useful amount of heat from the desolderer. If I were to do that I would just wind a nichrome coil to fit inside a small ceramic tube, powered by a low voltage transformer/variac. I have used the aquarium pumps for another SM soldering use: powering a vacuum collet (really nothing more than a bent brass tube with a finger hole for controlling the vacuum) for easy handling of small resistors and capacitors... Another SM related trick I have used is making solder stencils by laserprinting the stencil artwork onto 6 mil mylar, cutting out the printed stencil areas out with an X-Acto knife, and stencil printing the solder paste. Peter Wallace From classiccmp at crash.com Thu May 22 12:47:01 2003 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: DEC DSSI cabling wanted Message-ID: <200305221745.h4MHjRRS018030@io.crash.com> I'm looking for DEC DSSI cabling, terminators, etc. I'm located in the Boston suburbs, but will happily pay shipping. Low/no-cost preferred, but please feel free to respond if you want money for it, or something particular in trade. I don't have a list of what I've got handy, but who knows? I've got a pile of uninventoried Qbus boards now and random other bits. Thanks, --Steve. smj(at)spamfree.crash.com (lose spamfree to get through, m'kay?) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 22 13:20:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU Message-ID: <20030522201417.V213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I got some more parts of that disassembled PDP-11/34A yesterday. I think I have now all PSU parts: - power inlet unit with mains cable, circuit breaker ... and a PCB that looks like a small PSU. - one big transformer - one small transformer - one H785 battery backup regulator module - one H745 -15 PSU module - two H7441 +5V PSU modules - a PCB that is labled "BATTERY CHARGER" - a bag full of screws Some time ago I got the front half of the BA11-K, i.e. a card cage with the system units, all UniBus cards, power distribution panel and front panel. Obviously missing: - back of the BA11-K where the PSU bricks, transformers, ... are mounted - fans - bulkheads for the console serial line, the serial multiplexer, RK07, ... - UniBus extender and terminator. [1] I got the card cage, power distribution panel, system units and all UniBus cards in one piece, but disassembled it to clean it. I know how to remount that, but I have no clue how all the PSU parts fit togeter and if there are some parts missing I didn't list above. It would be nice if someone who knows this machine could give me some hints... I was toled that one of the PSU bricks is broken. I found some manuals on http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/PDP-11-34A/ but I can't read those TIFFs. I tried with xv, gimp, tiff2ps, Netscape 4.7x, Mozilla 1.2. I took the CDR with the TIFFs with me to work and tried to view them on a WinXP machine (puke). The machine nearly crashed when I tried to open the files. My SGI Indogo2 is broken so I can not try some IRIX tools. Where else can I get some schematics of the PSU bricks in a readable form? [1] There is an other, smaler BA11 with a custom UniBus interface from Linotype for some photo typesetting machinery... I have the M9312 bootstrap terminator for the "beginning" of the bus where the CPU resides. -- tsch??, Jochen, who is now heating the soldering iron for the Indogo2... Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 22 13:23:16 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <000a01c3207d$7dfb06f0$5b01a8c0@athlon>; from arcarlini@iee.org on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 18:16:24 CEST References: <000a01c3207d$7dfb06f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20030522184901.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.22 18:16 Antonio Carlini wrote: > The Alpha will be perhaps 2-3 times faster (at least > going by the SPEC numbers I can find for related > models and guessing a little based on frequencies). Really? The Alpha has about twice as much MHz, but the 21064 is known to need a lot of MHz per MIPS. > Either OpenVMS or NetBSD would probably be fine for > this usage (although be sure to get the NetBSD 1.6 > or so that fixed the non-fatal overwriting of > part of the console flash ... I think it was the > VS4000-9x that was hit). Yes. The dz(4) probe routine in NetBSD prior to 1.6 (1.5?) modified some bytes in the FLASH ROM of the VS4k9x. This causes a FLASH checksum error at startup und thus preventing autoboot but everything else works. It is save to use 1.6 and there is a MOPable FLASH ROM update for the VS4k9x available that repairs this. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 22 13:28:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering > Iron into an SMT hot air tool? The basic gist is that you remove the > rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and > pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The > pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates > heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. I have > used $800 commercial versions of this at work with great effect. Sounds cool. I assume at some point you need to change out the steel wool? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jpl15 at panix.com Thu May 22 13:34:01 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term Message-ID: Okay guyz - here's your chance to get a late 70's Minicom IV acoustic-coupled 110Baud data terminal from none other than the the author of the TTL Cookbook, TV-Typewriter Cookbook, etc. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=2730754787 Don't say I never told ya's nuttin'! Cheers John (who built a Lancaster TVT from scratch, on protoboards - it worked) From allain at panix.com Thu May 22 13:43:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: DEC DSSI cabling wanted References: <200305221745.h4MHjRRS018030@io.crash.com> Message-ID: <005501c32091$b0bc8f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I'm looking for DEC DSSI cabling, terminators, etc. mini-IDC based or mini-centronics based? John A. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 22 13:47:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030522201417.V213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <001201c32092$11cf05c0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I was toled that one of the PSU bricks is broken. I found > some manuals on > http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/PDP-11-> 34A/ but I can't > read those TIFFs. I tried with xv, gimp, > tiff2ps, Netscape 4.7x, Mozilla 1.2. I took the CDR with the > TIFFs with me to work and tried to view them on a WinXP > machine (puke). The machine nearly crashed when I tried to > open the files. My SGI Indogo2 is broken so I can not try > some IRIX tools. Where else can I get some schematics of the > PSU bricks in a readable form? Try IrfanView - I think that's what I used. If that fails, I can probably turn them into pdfs (and convert to g4 along the way). As long as you can read the various large scanned pdfs on the web (like, say, the VAX-11/750 schematics), this should work for you. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From jpl15 at panix.com Thu May 22 13:50:01 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > [chaste snippage] > > pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The ^^^^^^^^^^ This is the part that The Right Hon'l Mr.Pamberton is having some problems with in his DIY device. Switching to Stainless will solve the oxidation problems for the most part. Cheers John From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 14:13:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522191158.71592.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2003, Bryan Blackburn wrote: > > > I have been using commercial hot gas soldering equipment professionally > > for many years. One of my machines, which I recently sold, cost over > > $8000 new! No doubt! > Of all my experience with hot gas soldering, my favorite tool > > by far is a butane powered Weller soldering iron with a hot air tip; a > > PyroPen mini hot air/soldering iron, WST2. (Google search found: I had no idea such things existed. I've only seen electric-resistive thermal blowers. The one I used for rework at Lucent was a little heavy, but it was self-contained. They also hung them from retractable overhead cables to reduce operator strain. > http://www.lashen.com/vendors/CooperTools/Weller_cordless_solder.asp#wst2 > > looks like the PSI100K might even be better than the one I have, and > > cheaper too.) For <$100, I'm very interested. > > Although you may not want to use it to replace a large BGA > > chip (even though it can be done if you are careful), it is great for > > the smaller components like resistors, caps, and small chips. My target is SOTs, SOJs and passives. Sounds like several of those will work fine. > > It's main > > advantages are that it is low cost, lightweight, has ample heat, and > > adjustable output. I have used mine to do nearly everything I bought > > the expensive Ungar machine for, which is one reason I sold it. My only cost concern is fuel - if I can buy a tank for refilling butane lighters, it's a win. If I have to buy vendor-filled cartridges, that's less attractive. > > Although it MIGHT work, what you have described sounds clumsy and under > > powered, but then I'm used to my 2 oz. tool! For the small cost of the > > cordless hot air/irons, to me, it wouldn't even be worth the time to > > fiddle with a homemade kludge. I must admit that the cost savings is less attractive with a <$100 hot air tool compared with what I was expecting in an $800 hot air tool. I'll have to give some serious thought to those Weller tools. Thanks for the tip. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ssj152 at charter.net Thu May 22 14:17:01 2003 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS References: <000a01c3207d$7dfb06f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> <20030522184901.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <071e01c32096$1187edd0$0200a8c0@cosmo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:49 AM Subject: Re: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS > Yes. The dz(4) probe routine in NetBSD prior to 1.6 (1.5?) modified some > bytes in the FLASH ROM of the VS4k9x. This causes a FLASH checksum error > at startup und thus preventing autoboot but everything else works. It is > save to use 1.6 and there is a MOPable FLASH ROM update for the VS4k9x > available that repairs this. > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Where would I find this Flash ROM update? I have several 4000-90's and would like to know more about this. Thanks, Stuart Johnson From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu May 22 14:38:01 2003 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Dean Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Free (or trash): 53 QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <20030522130639.GA24444@earthlink.net> References: <20030522130639.GA24444@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030522193510.24101.qmail@xpres.ccp.com> Mark Grieshaber writes: > Free (you pay shipping), or trash by end of May: > > Found a box of 53 used quarter-inch cartridge tapes hiding in my home. n stored inside. > Mark Grieshaber > mvg1@earthlink.net See if you can send them Media Rate, that cuts costs quite a bit. I'll take whatever you have, or have left over, if the shipping isn't more than about 10-15 clams. Zip code here is 64506, to a box address I can give you off-list. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Thu May 22 14:47:01 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <1239a9f64b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030522154420.05f1aab0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> > IME, the wire wool tends to go black (oxidise?) pretty quickly, I don't have > a clue what metal it's made out of, though. Could you stuff part of a stainless steel dish scrubber in there instead? Might not stainless steel hold up better than the steel wool? At 05:05 PM 5/22/03 +0100, you wrote: >In message <20030522135338.86817.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering > > Iron into an SMT hot air tool? >I have no idea, but there was a thread on the PICList along those lines. The >original idea was somewhere on www.usbmicro.com ISTR. > > > The basic gist is that you remove the > > rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and > > pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The > > pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates > > heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. >Theoretically it should work... See below for my - ahem - "test results"... > > > I have done some initial digging and have come up with the following: > > > > RS De-soldering Tool - $10 new > > Weller De-soldering Attachment - in junk box > > Aquarium Pump - $7 - $70 new > > > > So... I can use one of my Wellers as the heat source, or I can drop $10 > > for a dedicated (non-temp-controlled) unit. >I spent $10 on a dedicated unit, then bought a cheapo 30W soldering iron and >bolted the desoldering attachment onto it. > > > What I'm hung up on is that > > I have no idea what capacity pump to buy. The $70 pump is somewhat large, > > but is adjustable. The $7 pump is too small to enclose a golf ball. > > There are numerous models in-between, including several with dual taps. >I tried using a 20-something PSI (allegedly) air compressor. Made by Aerosol >Products (Colchester), 87 Eccleston Sq., London, S.W.1. $DEITY knows if they >still exist - there's a phone number (?) on there - "Victoria 1676". The >model number on it is "SCI" (may be "SC1", "5C1" or "5CI"), serial number >1/6290. Painted red with a metal toggle switch on one side (power) and a >7mm-ish pipe on one side for the output. >I guess the air pressure is too high for the steel wool to heat the air up >enough... > > > So... has anyone here had any experience building such things? If I > > didn't read about it here, I'm baffled where else I would have run > > across the info. >PICList? Google Search? > >BTW, if you do find a pump that works, post the specs of it somewhere! > >IME, the wire wool tends to go black (oxidise?) pretty quickly, I don't have >a clue what metal it's made out of, though. > >Later. >-- >Phil. >philpem@dsl.pipex.com >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 15:13:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 21, 3 04:57:46 pm Message-ID: > > 2) Even now, HD drives have a switch to detect the hole in the HD disk, > > and one thing this switch does is to change the head write current to > > cater for the different coercivity of the DD and HD media. > > > > Have you got _proof_ (either from schematics, or by actually measuring > > the write current in an opertation drive) that the write current is the > > same for both DD and HD disks in a correctly-functioning name-brand > > drive? Becasue I am darn sure it isn't! > > No, but "DD" drives initially, for obvious reasons, did not have a switch. True DD drives probably still don't :-). Incidentally, the Sony drive used in the HP9114 that started this discussion does have a switch that lines up with the HD-hole. It's used to detect that a disk has been inserted, and therefore, these drives don't even recognise an HD disk (they think the drive is empty) > And, I can easily show you "HD" drives that do not have a switch! IBM did > not put a switch in their original "1.44" drives in PS/2's. Some users of How did they work? Did they use the HD write current for all disks? Or did they use the density select line from the controller, like the 5.25" 1.2M drives do? I would hope the latter. > those claim that DD diskettes work correctly. (and then later complain > about the COMPUTER being "unreliable") > > At no point has the price differential been so extreme as to justify using > the wrong diskette on a regular basis. Admittedly, there can be FWIW, the street price in the UK at the moment is at least a factor of 2 (with the DD being double the price of the HD). This still has not convinced me to risk my data :-) > "emergencies", where the correct diskette is unavailable that might result > in a need to make do with a wrong one. > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 15:16:36 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 21, 3 06:00:09 pm Message-ID: > 3.5": > Find one of each that are known, and labeled by the > manufacturer. Sometimes the labeling will refer to the UNFORMATTED > capacity and say 1M v 2M. > Find the write protect hole. Notice that on the HD diskette, there is > another similar hole in one of the other corners. That, surely is a reliable method for name-brand disks. > 3": > I don't think that there are any density differences, but single and > double sided diskettes are different. I don't remember the difference - > holes? This is the confusing one IMHO. All 3" disks are double sided, but some drives are single-head and use the disks as 'flippies'. However, Amstrad, who were the major user (at least in the UK) of 3" disks fitted 40 cylinder single-head or 80 cylinder double head drives to their machines. With the result that 80 cylinder-capable disks were often called 'double sided' and 40-cylinder ones 'single sided'. But 40 cylinder double-head drives exist (I have one on my CoCo), and obviously from the above they are reliable using so-called 'single-sided' disks. AFAIK the pattern of holes and notches is the same in all disks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 15:19:34 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <20030522124939.19870.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at May 22, 3 05:49:39 am Message-ID: > > I should still have all 10 artictles for the CHAMP, > > CHAMP-PROG and > > CHAMP-UV (EPROM eraser). But don't even think of > > building one now -- just > > about all the LSI parts (CPU, RAM, memory interface, > > EPROMs, etc) are > > almost unobtainable. > > That would certainly add to the challenge of building > one, not to mention the timeframe. I did see a 4040 > and some 1702's on ebay the other day. Could the other > parts be emulated somehow ? Oh, quite probably (data sheets for them exist). But why bother? Either make a simple 8 bit single-board machine round a common processor (6502, Z80, 6800, 6809) which will use commonly-available memory and I/O chips, or make a processor from scratch (either using TTL, or if you insist, an FPGA). Either is more fun and less work than trying to get the parts for the CHAMP, and then finding you've blown one by making a wrong connection and that you can't get a replacement for it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 15:24:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030522201417.V213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 22, 3 08:14:17 pm Message-ID: > Hi.=20 > > I got some more parts of that disassembled PDP-11/34A yesterday. I think > I have now all PSU parts > - power inlet unit with mains cable, circuit breaker ... and a PCB that > looks like a small PSU. If that's a PCB that covers the top side of that module, then it is a small PSU (+15V at a few amps, and also the ACLO, DCLO, LTC signals). There should also be a little PCB inside the module which controls the mains relay, I think. > - one big transformer OK > - one small transformer I don't remember there being a second transformer inside the BA11-K. Is this possibly part of the battery backup option (to go with the charger PCB below -- this doesn't fit inside the BA11-K) > - one H785 battery backup regulator module > - one H745 -15 PSU module > - two H7441 +5V PSU modules=20 OK -- that should be enough to run the machine. You don't _need_ the battery backup unit, BTW... > - a PCB that is labled "BATTERY CHARGER" AFAIK the battery backup unit was a separate box that contained the batteries, the charger PCB, and probably the small transformer. > - a bag full of screws > > Some time ago I got the front half of the BA11-K, i.e. a card cage with > the system units, all UniBus cards, power distribution panel and front > panel. > > Obviously missing:=20 > - back of the BA11-K where the PSU bricks, transformers, ... are mounted > - fans > - bulkheads for the console serial line, the serial multiplexer, RK07, > ... > - UniBus extender and terminator. [1]=20 > > I got the card cage, power distribution panel, system units and all > UniBus cards in one piece, but disassembled it to clean it. I know how > to remount that, but I have no clue how all the PSU parts fit togeter YOu really need the printset. The bricks connect to the 8 pin mate-n-lock plugs wired to the distribution PCB (but you must get them in the right places!), then there's a little cable that connectes between the +15V PSU and the distribution PCB. The transformer connects to that cable, to the 8 pin mate-n-lock on the distribution PCB and to the 4 pin connector on the front of the power controller. THe power switch wiring from the front of the cabinet connects to one of the 3 pin connectors on the power controller. The fans connect to the primary side of the transformer, BTW. > and if there are some parts missing I didn't list above. It would be Maybe the odd cable or connector is missing, but you have the main parts. -tony From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 15:28:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030522154420.05f1aab0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <20030522202657.15630.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mail List wrote: > > IME, the wire wool tends to go black (oxidise?) pretty quickly, I > don't have > > a clue what metal it's made out of, though. > > Could you stuff part of a stainless steel dish scrubber in there instead? > Might not stainless steel hold up better than the steel wool? The instructions I dimly remember do suggest stainless steel wool. I'll have to get one at the grocery store and give it a go. OTOH, the Weller butane unit is around $100 and apparently does the job nicely. Now that I've opened my mouth, people are pointing out all sorts of tools well under the $800 I feared. The better the tool and the lower the price, the less likely I am to bother with a kludge. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 22 15:48:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > No, but "DD" drives initially, for obvious reasons, did not have a switch. > True DD drives probably still don't :-). > Incidentally, the Sony drive used in the HP9114 that started this > discussion does have a switch that lines up with the HD-hole. It's used > to detect that a disk has been inserted, and therefore, these drives > don't even recognise an HD disk (they think the drive is empty) Hmmm. So "wrong disk" is equated to "no disk". Did they PLAN it that way to reject the other disks that were being planned for, (I assume that they knew about the future diskette types before we did), or did they just get lucky? > > And, I can easily show you "HD" drives that do not have a switch! IBM did > > not put a switch in their original "1.44" drives in PS/2's. Some users of > How did they work? Did they use the HD write current for all disks? Or > did they use the density select line from the controller, like the 5.25" > 1.2M drives do? I would hope the latter. Yes. The "density" was software controlled. You could still format a "720K" by using /T:80 /N:9, or /F:2, or later /F:720. NOTE: XP has discontinued F:2 and F:720, but /T:80 /N:9 still works. > > At no point has the price differential been so extreme as to justify using > > the wrong diskette on a regular basis. Admittedly, there can be > FWIW, the street price in the UK at the moment is at least a factor of 2 > (with the DD being double the price of the HD). This still has not > convinced me to risk my data :-) Different people place different values on their data. ...and now that AOHell sends out CD's, we will all have to BUY our diskettes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 22 15:52:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > 3": > > I don't think that there are any density differences, but single and > > double sided diskettes are different. I don't remember the difference - > > holes? On Thu, 22 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > This is the confusing one IMHO. All 3" disks are double sided, but some > drives are single-head and use the disks as 'flippies'. Thanks I couldn't remember for sure. But, IIRC, the double sided drives would not let you insert a diskette upside down, and therefore were incapable of reading the second side of a flippy other than backwards, which was not supported by the controllers. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 22 16:03:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <20030522184901.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <000101c320a5$6b29a590$5b01a8c0@athlon> > > The Alpha will be perhaps 2-3 times faster (at least > > going by the SPEC numbers I can find for related > > models and guessing a little based on frequencies). > Really? The Alpha has about twice as much MHz, but the 21064 > is known to need a lot of MHz per MIPS. The data I have for the VS4000-90 is about 32 SPECmarks and similar numbers for SPECint/fp89. I don't have any numbers for the DEC 3000-400 but it runs a 21064 @ 133MHz. I have numbers for other members of the family that run at various speeds from 100MHz to 175MHz, so I guessed. There is also a chart at: http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_by_perf_dec.html If you go by VUPs, the uV3100-95 and VS4000-90 are about equal, which would put the systems on a par. So you pays your money and you takes your choice. I still think either system would have enough grunt to do the job. > autoboot but everything else works. It is save to use 1.6 and > there is a MOPable FLASH ROM update for the VS4k9x available > that repairs this. There is indeed - I remember sending one version to a few people to recover their boxes (very brave of them to try it since I'd never actually needed it myself!). Then someone found a more recent version and made it available via ftp. And then someone went and fixed the problem. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Thu May 22 16:15:01 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <20030522202657.15630.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030522154420.05f1aab0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030522165327.00a44570@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Hello Ethan, > stainless steel dish scrubber Pot scrubber would have been a better description. I think I've seen them in stainless, in addition to bronze. Even if you don't end up making one, someone else might, so the discussion may not be for naught. Seems that most of these sold on eBay toward the lower end of the price range are missing the accessories, very old, or have seen some hard use. Not surprising. Best Regards At 01:26 PM 5/22/03 -0700, you wrote: >--- Mail List wrote: > > > IME, the wire wool tends to go black (oxidise?) pretty quickly, I > > don't have > > > a clue what metal it's made out of, though. > > > > Could you stuff part of a stainless steel dish scrubber in there instead? > > Might not stainless steel hold up better than the steel wool? > >The instructions I dimly remember do suggest stainless steel wool. > >I'll have to get one at the grocery store and give it a go. OTOH, the >Weller butane unit is around $100 and apparently does the job nicely. >Now that I've opened my mouth, people are pointing out all sorts of >tools well under the $800 I feared. The better the tool and the lower >the price, the less likely I am to bother with a kludge. > >-ethan >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 16:35:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: 3-1/2" Floppy Market Cornered In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 22, 3 01:50:21 pm Message-ID: [3" disks] > But, IIRC, the double sided drives would not let you insert a diskette > upside down, and therefore were incapable of reading the second side of a Yes. There's an off-centre notch in the front edge of the disk. On the double-head drive, there's a metal bracket that slots into this notch which prevents the disk going in if upside-down. The better class of single-head drive have an optical sensor to detect this notch. The In-Use LED is green if the disk is in one way up, and red if it's the other way up. Or at least the one in my Einstein behaves like that, > flippy other than backwards, which was not supported by the controllers. True :-( -tony From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 22 16:40:01 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522213821.4149.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> > or make a processor from scratch (either using TTL, > or if you insist, an > FPGA). Either is more fun and less work than trying > to get the parts for > the CHAMP, and then finding you've blown one by > making a wrong connection > and that you can't get a replacement for it... Since you mention it, I had been thinking about designing and building a processor from scratch from TTL devices. I am slowly accumulating TTL chips as I come across them at hamfests and things. Perhaps it's time to put pencil to paper. Of course I could take the NASA Apollo Guidance Computer approach and build everything welded-cordwood style out of NOR gates. Dave The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 22 16:50:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <071e01c32096$1187edd0$0200a8c0@cosmo>; from ssj152@charter.net on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 21:12:20 CEST References: <000a01c3207d$7dfb06f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> <20030522184901.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <071e01c32096$1187edd0$0200a8c0@cosmo> Message-ID: <20030522220528.Z213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.22 21:12 Stuart Johnson wrote: > Where would I find this Flash ROM update? I have several 4000-90's and > would like to know more about this. Grepping the NetBSD/port-vax archive gives: http://hermes.tubas.net/vs4000-90A_firmware.zip The ZIP contains a VS4000.doc and a cougar_v1_3.zip... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 16:55:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <20030522213821.4149.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at May 22, 3 02:38:21 pm Message-ID: > Since you mention it, I had been thinking about > designing and building a processor from scratch from > TTL devices. I am slowly accumulating TTL chips as I It's not that hard. There have been several commercial 12 or 16 bit processors built using appoximately 100 TTL packages (perhaps with some small PROMs as control store too). Designing such a processor is not a difficult job either... -tony From ssj152 at charter.net Thu May 22 17:31:00 2003 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS References: <000a01c3207d$7dfb06f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> <20030522184901.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <071e01c32096$1187edd0$0200a8c0@cosmo> <20030522220528.Z213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <078301c320b1$a5377080$0200a8c0@cosmo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:05 PM Subject: Re: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS > On 2003.05.22 21:12 Stuart Johnson wrote: > > > Where would I find this Flash ROM update? I have several 4000-90's and > > would like to know more about this. > Grepping the NetBSD/port-vax archive gives: > http://hermes.tubas.net/vs4000-90A_firmware.zip > The ZIP contains a VS4000.doc and a cougar_v1_3.zip... > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Many thanks! Stuart Johnson From acme at ao.net Thu May 22 17:36:01 2003 From: acme at ao.net (acme@ao.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Need manual for Tek 922 scope Message-ID: <200305222156.h4MLuwrV004311@eola.ao.net> Anybody got one? I'll pay for copying costs, postage, time, trouble, etc., etc. TIA -- Glen 0/0 From classiccmp at crash.com Thu May 22 17:56:01 2003 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: DEC DSSI cabling wanted Message-ID: <200305222255.h4MMswRS019030@io.crash.com> I wrote: >> I'm looking for DEC DSSI cabling, terminators, etc. I'm located >> in the Boston suburbs, but will happily pay shipping. John Allain responded: > mini-IDC based or mini-centronics based? Er, yes. ;^) I've got to go from uVAX 3400 and VAX 4k500 bulkheads (and KFQSA) to each other and some HSD05/HSD10. The HSD's use micro-DB50 sized connector that looks like a Centronics, while the uVAX 3400 (and I assume the 4k500) have what looks like an inverted micro-DB50 connector (male on host). I never used DSSI machines in production, so I'm very unclear what these cables are or look like... Thanks, --Steve. smj(at)spamfree.crash.com (lose spamfree to get through, m'kay?) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 22 18:58:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:49 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 References: <20030522213821.4149.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECD62E0.3040300@jetnet.ab.ca> David Comley wrote: > Since you mention it, I had been thinking about > designing and building a processor from scratch from > TTL devices. I am slowly accumulating TTL chips as I > come across them at hamfests and things. Perhaps it's > time to put pencil to paper. > > Of course I could take the NASA Apollo Guidance > Computer approach and build everything welded-cordwood > style out of NOR gates. Nope that used lots of REAL ( expensive ) TTL. The neat part of that was the CORE memory used. Any how a real TTL computer is about 4+ large logic cards. Control card, alu card, memory card and serial I/O card. The mother board is bus and front pannel logic. I am doing a 20 bit CPU with about 125 chips total in the computer and front panel. About 50? more chips for memory and serial i/o. http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/ldp/ldp1.html Ben. From allain at panix.com Thu May 22 19:32:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: DEC DSSI cabling wanted References: <200305222255.h4MMswRS019030@io.crash.com> Message-ID: <005c01c320c2$6236ab00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > The HSD's use micro-DB50 sized connector that looks > like a Centronics, while the uVAX 3400 (and I assume > the 4k500) have what looks like an inverted micro-DB50 > connector... That is exactly the cable I'm looking for. If you find two let me know / If I find two I'll let you know. As a hack, I'm considering this if there's no way out. Take the bulkhead connector (to the internal ribbon cable) from a spare machine with a matching connector (either format, just so the two match) and transplant it into the older/newer machine. Now a matching ended cable could be used... it is hoped. > I'm very unclear what these cables are or look like... I just have the matching ended ones, one of each, no spares. BTW make sure you don't lose your terminators. John A. probably overexplained. anyway... From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 22 19:46:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 Message-ID: <200305230045.RAA05667@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "ben franchuk" > >David Comley wrote: > >> Since you mention it, I had been thinking about >> designing and building a processor from scratch from >> TTL devices. I am slowly accumulating TTL chips as I >> come across them at hamfests and things. Perhaps it's >> time to put pencil to paper. >> >> Of course I could take the NASA Apollo Guidance >> Computer approach and build everything welded-cordwood >> style out of NOR gates. > >Nope that used lots of REAL ( expensive ) TTL. >The neat part of that was the CORE memory used. > >Any how a real TTL computer is about 4+ large >logic cards. Control card, alu card, memory card >and serial I/O card. The mother board is bus >and front pannel logic. >I am doing a 20 bit CPU with about 125 chips total >in the computer and front panel. About 50? >more chips for memory and serial i/o. > >http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/ldp/ldp1.html >Ben. > Hi All make the assumption that you must make 8 bit/16bit or, in your case, 20 bit. One can make a 1 bit alu that can have data width controlled by instruction. It may not be fast at math but much processor time is consumed just looking at true/false. If your model doesn't require passing data through the alu for mem/mem and mem/io moves, a single bitter makes sense. ( My Nicolet is a 20 bit machine. ) Dwight From Cess120 at aol.com Thu May 22 19:50:01 2003 From: Cess120 at aol.com (Cess120@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Tek 922 scope Message-ID: <1a3.151fdc7a.2bfec9a8@aol.com> I have the T921/922 SVC manual make offer Larry From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 22 20:11:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 References: <200305230045.RAA05667@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3ECD7406.9040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Hi > All make the assumption that you must make 8 bit/16bit > or, in your case, 20 bit. One can make a 1 bit alu that > can have data width controlled by instruction. It may > not be fast at math but much processor time is consumed > just looking at true/false. If your model doesn't require > passing data through the alu for mem/mem and mem/io moves, > a single bitter makes sense. > ( My Nicolet is a 20 bit machine. ) Darn! All the good computer names are taken. :) Do you have any more information? > Dwight Some day I would like to see a DECIMAL computer in TLL or FPGA like the early decimal machines. Ben. From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 22 20:55:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 Message-ID: <200305230154.SAA05696@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "ben franchuk" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> >> Hi >> All make the assumption that you must make 8 bit/16bit >> or, in your case, 20 bit. One can make a 1 bit alu that >> can have data width controlled by instruction. It may >> not be fast at math but much processor time is consumed >> just looking at true/false. If your model doesn't require >> passing data through the alu for mem/mem and mem/io moves, >> a single bitter makes sense. >> ( My Nicolet is a 20 bit machine. ) > >Darn! All the good computer names are taken. :) >Do you have any more information? > >> Dwight > >Some day I would like to see a DECIMAL computer in >TLL or FPGA like the early decimal machines. >Ben. Hi Ben I didn't build it, I just made it work. A real pain, since I didn't have any schematics and it had several problems. There are a couple of pictures at: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcfiv.shtml Look down 8 rows. The first 2 pictures in that row are my Nicolet machine ( It has 12Kx20 core ). It is all ttl/dtl, thought. Notice the front panel switch position. It is 7600 octal, the boot vector in core. One of the interesting things is the ALU. It has a 5 input port adder. One can select from, ALU, ALU*, MEM, MEM* and "one" to add together. One can do a lot with this combination. Anyway, back on the original subject, there are also some interesting minimal instruction processors described out there. As I recall, there was one that had only 4 operations. SUBtract was one of them ( considered more important than an ADD ). I've been toying with making a single bit relay based computer. My intent is to make the main memory bank using reed relays with a magnet to bias them. The idea is that the external magnet has just enough effect that if the reed relay is closed, it stays that way. If it is opened it stays open. One would arrange these relays in an array with small ceramic magnets, north and south poles alternating so that there is no cumulative bias. Writing to the reeds, coil in opposite directions causes it to open or close. Data is handled by a shift register so that the bus is always 1 bit wide. It'll be slow but what the heck. To make things a little more complicated, I expect to use 3 phase clocking. With this, I can use overlapped clocks, without racing. Dwight From cb at mythtech.net Thu May 22 20:59:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Bulk Erasing Cassette Media Message-ID: Ugh... this tape drive is going to be the death of me! Now that I have a small supply of Maxell tapes for my TEAC MT-2ST/N50 cassette drive (thanks Don!!!), I've run into the next problem. All the tapes are reported as "content unknown", and claim to be 60 MB (the drive claims to do 150 or 160 depending on which info you pay attention to). Neither of those are too big of a surprise as the tapes are used, and logically have data that Retrospect on the Mac can't understand, and may very well have been written to last with an earlier version of the drive (different models support different MB's, and from what I can tell, the tapes are all interchangable for writing at max MB, and upwards readable so you can read a lower MB tape on a higher MB drive) However, all the tapes ALSO report that they are locked. Regardless of how I set the write protect slide, the tape is still seen as locked. Which means I can't erase or write to the tapes. I opened the drive, and the write protect sense switch appears to be physically functional. I have not yet broken down the drive enough to see if it is electronically functional (although about the best I can do is test for switch continuity in the open and closed positions). I'm wondering, is it possible they are seen as locked because of the data on them? Is there a way to software lock the tapes? Or maybe the locked is a side effect of having been last written at a lower MB (some kind of a safety to keep you from screwing up the data with a higher MB drive). If so, is it safe to bulk erase the tapes to wipe the data, or will I destroy some kind of a control track as well and render the tape useless? I know some kinds of media should not be bulk erased for just that reason. I would just give it a go, but since I only have 10 tapes, and these have proven a bit tough to locate, I don't want to destroy a tape without at least consulting the resident group of experts. TIA -chris From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 22 23:03:00 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <200305230045.RAA05667@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "ben franchuk" > > > >David Comley wrote: > > > >> Since you mention it, I had been thinking about > >> designing and building a processor from scratch from > >> TTL devices. I am slowly accumulating TTL chips as I > >> come across them at hamfests and things. Perhaps it's > >> time to put pencil to paper. > >> > >> Of course I could take the NASA Apollo Guidance > >> Computer approach and build everything welded-cordwood > >> style out of NOR gates. > > > >Nope that used lots of REAL ( expensive ) TTL. > >The neat part of that was the CORE memory used. > > > >Any how a real TTL computer is about 4+ large > >logic cards. Control card, alu card, memory card > >and serial I/O card. The mother board is bus > >and front pannel logic. > >I am doing a 20 bit CPU with about 125 chips total > >in the computer and front panel. About 50? > >more chips for memory and serial i/o. > > > >http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/ldp/ldp1.html > >Ben. > > > > Hi > All make the assumption that you must make 8 bit/16bit > or, in your case, 20 bit. One can make a 1 bit alu that > can have data width controlled by instruction. It may > not be fast at math but much processor time is consumed > just looking at true/false. If your model doesn't require > passing data through the alu for mem/mem and mem/io moves, > a single bitter makes sense. > ( My Nicolet is a 20 bit machine. ) > Dwight > I have considered making a 1 bit stack oriented machine with 4 bit instructions, long and short jumps and memory reference are done by pushing the target address a bit at a time onto the pointer stack, then issuing the jump or memory ref inst (that looks at the 1 bit pointer stack depthwise)... Peter Wallace From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 22 23:19:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <000101c320a5$6b29a590$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <000101c320a5$6b29a590$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: >The data I have for the VS4000-90 is about 32 SPECmarks >and similar numbers for SPECint/fp89. > >I don't have any numbers for the DEC 3000-400 but it >runs a 21064 @ 133MHz. I have numbers for other members >of the family that run at various speeds from 100MHz >to 175MHz, so I guessed. It's about 71-75 SPECint, and I think around 110 SPECfp. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 22 23:23:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3ECB1309.8050504@citem.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Hans B Pufal wrote: > My favorite argument is that if the dump the duplicate argument had won > the day we would most probably have dumped one of our two PDP-9's and in > that case would probably never have gotten one to operational state. This is one of the reasons why I keep at least two of everything. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 22 23:41:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) References: Message-ID: <008d01c320e4$512de360$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Are the computers at a museum run at all? How much of an old computer/mainframe is repairable with modern components and how much is custom equipment that needs spares? I would think the museums have static displays and are mostly worried about them being complete, but not worried about functionality. Over the years how many people are still around who can operate, repair, or maintain 50's era computers? Power requirements would also be a pain for the older models. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 12:16 AM Subject: Re: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) > On Wed, 21 May 2003, Hans B Pufal wrote: > > > My favorite argument is that if the dump the duplicate argument had won > > the day we would most probably have dumped one of our two PDP-9's and in > > that case would probably never have gotten one to operational state. > > This is one of the reasons why I keep at least two of everything. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 22 23:52:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Compaq DeskPro 2 available in Oshkosk, Wisconsin Message-ID: Anyone interested in a Compaq DeskPro 2? Reply to original sender. Reply-to: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:10:57 -0500 From: Web Master To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: Compaq DeskPro 2 At 09:51 PM 5/21/2003 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 May 2003, Web Master wrote: > > > Do you have use for a Compaq DeskPro Model 2? Model 1, 2, and 3 were > > versions of the first "DeskPro" personal computer. Mid 1980's. > >Hi there. > >Maybe...where is it located? Oshkosh, Wisconsin -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From spc at conman.org Fri May 23 02:50:00 2003 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Commodore 128 available Message-ID: <20030523074851.2DE2666C4@tower.conman.org> A friend of mine, Marcus (mlivius@charter.net) has a Commodore 128 he is willing to part with for shipping (and maybe a few extra bucks). It is still in the original packaging but doesn't come with documentation (in fact, he says it has rarely, if ever, been used). If anyone is interested, please contact him direct (mlivius@charter.net) to work out the details of shipping from Houston, Texas. -spc From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 23 03:01:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool" (May 22, 11:23) References: Message-ID: <10305230748.ZM2145@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 22, 11:23, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Was it here that I was reading about turning a RadioShack Desoldering > > Iron into an SMT hot air tool? The basic gist is that you remove the > > rubber bulb, plug in an aquarium pump on a long-enough air hose, and > > pack some (stainless) steel wool inside the de-soldering nozzle. The > > pump provides continuous air over the steel wool which facilitates > > heat transfer to get the air temp up to something useful. I have > > used $800 commercial versions of this at work with great effect. > > Sounds cool. I assume at some point you need to change out the steel > wool? Probably not for a long time, if at all. Commercial steel wool is oil-coated to prevent it rusting. Philip described his as going black, which I expect will be the result of the oil carbonising in the hot air stream. The result will be a tough coating of carbon that will prevent oxidation. A similar idea is sometimes used for steel tools -- heat until it develops a blue oxide layer then plunge into oil. The resulting blue colour is fairly pretty, and rust-resistant. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vaxzilla at jarai.org Fri May 23 03:16:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > Since you mention it, I had been thinking about > > designing and building a processor from scratch from > > TTL devices. I am slowly accumulating TTL chips as I > > It's not that hard. There have been several commercial 12 or 16 bit > processors built using appoximately 100 TTL packages (perhaps with some > small PROMs as control store too). Designing such a processor is not a > difficult job either... I'd really like to design and build a PDP-8 clone, since the real ones command such hefty prices on eBay. I've mostly given up on getting my own 8/F or 8/M. It's a simple enough architecture that it could be done without too much trouble. And I'd have the benefit of being able to make use of the exisiting library of PDP-8 software. The difficult parts are a) knowing where to even begin, b) finding the time to figure out how to do it, and c) finding the time to actually do it. -brian. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 23 03:27:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 22:18:31 CEST References: <20030522201417.V213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20030523101205.H213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.22 22:18 Tony Duell wrote: > > - power inlet unit with mains cable, circuit breaker ... and a PCB > > that looks like a small PSU. > If that's a PCB that covers the top side of that module, Yes. > There should also be a little PCB inside the module which controls the > mains relay, I think. Yes. > > - one small transformer > I don't remember there being a second transformer inside the BA11-K. > Is this possibly part of the battery backup option (to go with the > charger PCB below -- this doesn't fit inside the BA11-K) It looks like this. The samll transformer has its own mains cable. > OK -- that should be enough to run the machine. You don't _need_ the > battery backup unit, BTW... Very good. Now I need better weather. I have to sand-blast and repaint the card cage (rust everywhere). I will not do this inside the house... > YOu really need the printset. Meanwhile I got the tiffs in a readable form by using tiffsplit. I will have a look at them and print the important ones. > Maybe the odd cable or connector is missing, but you have the main > parts. Souns good. When I get the H745 and H7441 PSU bricks working I will try to build a minimal setup to see if the CPU and RAM is alive. Then add the peripheral controllers ... Unfortunately SMPSUs are not my friends. And if the machine works there is the next task: Rebuild the rusty RK07. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 23 03:30:09 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <001201c32092$11cf05c0$5b01a8c0@athlon>; from arcarlini@iee.org on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 20:43:42 CEST References: <20030522201417.V213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <001201c32092$11cf05c0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20030523094057.F213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.22 20:43 Antonio Carlini wrote: > Try IrfanView - I think that's what I used. Is that some M$-WinWare? (I own only one PeeCee, a IBM PS/2-80 386/20.) Hmmm. Several people reported the the files are readable. So there must be a way... [playing around with the tiff tools] Ahhh, now it works. I had to split the multi-page tiffs into individual tiff files and now I can view them. xv still crashes when I load multiple files and press the "Next" button but I can get somthing on the screen. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 23 03:33:08 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, May 23, 2003 at 06:17:47 CEST References: <000101c320a5$6b29a590$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20030523092705.D213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.23 06:17 Zane H. Healy wrote: > >The data I have for the VS4000-90 is about 32 SPECmarks > >and similar numbers for SPECint/fp89. [DEC 3000-400 ] > It's about 71-75 SPECint, and I think around 110 SPECfp. Surprising for me. I thought that the gap was smaler. Maybe I should run a benchmark (== building the NetBSD world) on my machines. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From oldcomp at cox.net Fri May 23 04:23:00 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool References: <20030522191158.71592.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECDE863.2020605@cox.net> >looks like the PSI100K might even be better than the one I have, and >cheaper too.) > > On rechecking, it doesn't appear this model has a hot air attachment. Make sure that's part of the package before you buy one. Probably the best model is the WST2, for ease of use. Beware that this model uses some plastic parts, and will not survive a good floor drop! (I'm on my third one in five years!). I have also used the WSTA3, but although more durable, I find it bulky and I prefer the smaller model. Avoid the P1KC. It's crap. >My only cost concern is fuel - if I can buy a tank for refilling >butane lighters, it's a win. If I have to buy vendor-filled >cartridges, that's less attractive. > > Fear not! These are refillable from standard lighter-refill style butane tanks. Although you MUST use a very high quality butane fuel (using cheap consumer grade fuel from the local convenience store will seriously shorten the iron's life span), the fuel is available in nearly every electronic parts store I've ever been, and quite cheap. My 5 oz. can of "Ultratane" has lasted me more than a year. I can't remember how much it cost, but it wasn't more than $10 a can. -Bryan From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 23 04:39:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drive value In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523023449.03117ec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> I stopped by one of my more rare to visit scrappers, and was disappointed to see a number of 8" floppy drives mashed up in a huge bin of other drives with aluminum frames. To prevent this requires I offer him enough more to carefully handle and set aside these drives than he is getting for aluminum scrap. So, whats an 8" floppy drive in unknown working state worth? Are there parts I could remove that are worthwhile? I also have to wonder what potentially NEAT thing these drives came out of too. Sigh. Its a fine line you have to walk with scrappers, pay enough to make it worthwhile to them, but not give them the idea that treasure might be in there junkpile. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Fri May 23 06:34:00 2003 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool References: <20030522191158.71592.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> <3ECDE863.2020605@cox.net> Message-ID: <02fc01c3211f$225870b0$0100a8c0@athlon> What about the WSTA6? Any idea how it compares to the WST2? DaveB Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Blackburn" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: Re: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool snip-- > On rechecking, it doesn't appear this model has a hot air attachment. > Make sure that's part of the package before you buy one. Probably the > best model is the WST2, for ease of use. Beware that this model uses > some plastic parts, and will not survive a good floor drop! (I'm on my > third one in five years!). I have also used the WSTA3, but although more > durable, I find it bulky and I prefer the smaller model. Avoid the P1KC. > It's crap. snip-- From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Fri May 23 07:36:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: (another) Re: Commodore 128 available References: <20030523074851.2DE2666C4@tower.conman.org> Message-ID: <3ECE1536.90D62396@comcast.net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > A friend of mine, Marcus (mlivius@charter.net) has a Commodore 128 he is > willing to part with for shipping (and maybe a few extra bucks). It is > still in the original packaging but doesn't come with documentation (in > fact, he says it has rarely, if ever, been used). If anyone is interested, > please contact him direct (mlivius@charter.net) to work out the details of > shipping from Houston, Texas. > > -spc Also, the one I have is available now too. C-128, disk drive, joystick, and a bunch of software. Mine is in New Haven, CT... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 08:58:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030523135647.63262.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Chase wrote: > I'd really like to design and build a PDP-8 clone, since the real > ones command such hefty prices on eBay. I've mostly given up on > getting my own 8/F or 8/M. If you are after the experience of having a PDP-8 clone, not the experience of designing your own from scratch, there's the SBC-6120 at http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ I don't know if there are any boards left (we had a group buy some time ago, pictures of mine are at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/sbc6120/ ) The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 09:07:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Rolling your own PDP-8 clone (was Re: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030523140636.48501.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Chase wrote: > I'd really like to design and build a PDP-8 clone, since the real > ones command such hefty prices on eBay. I've mostly given up on > getting my own 8/F or 8/M. If you are after the experience of having a PDP-8 clone, not the experience of designing your own from scratch, there's the SBC-6120 at http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ I don't know if there are any boards left (we had a group buy some time ago; pictures of mine are at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/sbc6120/ ), but it's a nice little machine that is easy to get up and running. I'll be demoing mine at a computer history exhibit at a science fiction convention this weekend (alongside a PDP-8/L w/ASR-33 and PC04). The CPU is an Intersil/Harris 6120 - commonly described as a PDP-8/e on a chip. They are still available, new, for about $50. There's also the 6100, available much cheaper (several listmembers purchased them by the *tube* recently), but the 6100 lacks on-board EMA support, among other things (it used a 6102 in the VT-78 for that). If there are no more SBC-6120 blank boards available, it's possible to order your own (expensive for small runs) or use the schematics as a starting point and build your own with wire-wrap or point-to-point. Everything on the SBC-6120 is available from modern stocks, although the 64Kx4 SRAMs (6408?) are somewhat hard to find now - rolling your own design means being able to use just about any SRAM you can find. It does require three GALs, though there are people on the list who can provide them for a nominal cost (2 x 16V8 + 1x 22V10). It's a fully CMOS design - mine draws 175mA, and I have run it off of batteries. The only thing it "lacks" at the moment, compared to a PDP-8/e is non-volatile main memory (but some -8s had MOS anyway, not core), and blinkenlights. Alternately, there are a few projects out there you could borrow from to implement a PDP-8 core in an FPGA. Because of the simplicity and the extensive documentation, it was frequently assigned as a student project. Good luck, -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 23 11:27:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <20030523092705.D213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <000101c320a5$6b29a590$5b01a8c0@athlon> <20030523092705.D213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >On 2003.05.23 06:17 Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >The data I have for the VS4000-90 is about 32 SPECmarks >> >and similar numbers for SPECint/fp89. >[DEC 3000-400 ] >> It's about 71-75 SPECint, and I think around 110 SPECfp. >Surprising for me. I thought that the gap was smaler. >Maybe I should run a benchmark (== building the NetBSD world) on my >machines. I was in a hurry last night, here are the actual SPEC92 numbers from: ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/spectable For VUPS see (unfortunatly the later VAXen have SPECmark89, and the Alphas have SPECint92/SPECfp92): http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html Amazingly my memory was very close. My VMS server was originally a 3000/300LX, unfortunatly I can't remember if it acted as a mailserver, or if it was just serving up disks at that time. I've included numbers from the 'spectable' file for most of the Alpha's that are listed, and are likely to be in hobbyist hands. I've also listed the smaller VAXen in that list. Zane System CPU ClkMHz Cache SPECint SPECfp Info Source Name (NUMx)Type ext/in Ext+I/D 92 92 Date Obtained ================= ========== ======= ========== ======= ======= ===== ========= DEC VAX4000/60 KA46 22.2 ? 11.1 12.6 Mar93 DECinfo DEC 3000/400 A21064 27/133 512+8/8 74.7 112.2 Apr93 c.arch DEC VAX3100/38 ? ? ? 3.5 3.8 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX3100/76 REX520 ? 128 7.1 6.6 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX4000VLC SOC ? 25 5.8 6.3 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX4000/90 NVAX 71 2/8 ? 30.2 Sep92 SPEC news DEC 3000/300 A21064 30/150 256+8/8 66.2 91.5 Apr93 c.sun.mc DEC 3000/300L A21064 20/100 256+8/8 45.9 63.6 Apr93 c.sun.mc DEC 3000/300LX A21064 25/125 256+8/8 63.5 75.5 May94 SPEC news DEC 3000/300X A21064 35/175 256+8/8 84.4 100.5 May94 SPEC news DEC 3000/500 A21064 30/150 512+8/8 84.4 127.7 Apr93 c.arch DEC 3000/500X A21064 40/200 512+8/8 110.9 164.1 Apr93 c.sun.mc DEC 3000/600S A21064 35/175 2M+8/8 114.1 162.1 Oct93 c.arch DEC 3000/700 A21064A 38/225 2M+16/16 162.6 230.6 Jul94 Digital DEC 3000/800S A21064 40/200 2M+8/8 138.4 187.6 May94 c.sun.hw DEC 3000/900 A21064A 39/275 2M+16/16 189.3 264.1 Jul94 Digital DEC 200/4/100 A21064 ??/100 512+8/8 74.6 95.2 Feb95 Digital DEC 250/4/266 A21064A ??/266 2M+16/16 198.6 262.5 Apr95 www.dec DEC 255/233 A21064A ??/233 1M+16/16 180.0 210.0 Mar96 Digital DEC 255/300 A21064A ??/300 1M+16/16 215.0 245.0 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/266 A21164 43/266 2M+96+8/8 329.0 405.0 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/333 A21164 46/333 2M+96+8/8 389.6 480.1 Mar96 Digital DEC [24]00/4/166 A21064 33/166 512+8/8 116.2 134.8 Jul95 Digital DEC [24]00/4/233 A21064A 39/233 512+16/16 157.7 183.9 Apr95 Digital DEC 600/5/266 A21164 38/266 2M+96+8/8 289.0 405.0 Jul95 Digital DEC 600/5/266 A21164 38/266 4M+96+8/8 292.8 433.5 Jul95 Digital DEC 600/5/300 A21164 75/300 4M+96+8/8 337.8 502.1 Jul95 Digital DEC 600/5/333 A21164 83/333 4M+96+8/8 412.4 545.2 Jan96 Digital System CPU ClkMHz Cache SPECint SPECfp Info Source Name (NUMx)Type ext/in Ext+I/D 95 95 Date Obtained ================= ========== ======= ========== ======= ======= ===== ========= DEC 200/4/100 A21064A ??/100 ?+16/16 1.88 2.79 Aug96 Digital DEC 200/4/166 A21064A ??/166 ?+16/16 2.95 3.64 Aug96 Digital DEC 200/4/233 A21064A ??/233 ?+16/16 4.28 4.32 Aug96 Digital DEC 250/4/266 A21064A ??/266 2M+16/16 5.18 6.27 Apr95 www.dec DEC 255/233 A21064A ??/233 1M+16/16 4.27 5.09 Mar96 Digital DEC 255/300 A21064A ??/300 1M+16/16 5.23 5.81 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/266 A21164 43/266 2M+96+8/8 7.93 11.1 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/333 A21164 46/333 2M+96+8/8 9.82 12.5 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/400 A21164 53/400 2M+96+8/8 12.3 14.1 Jun96 Digital DEC 500/500 A21164 48/500 8M+96+8/8 15.0 20.4 Aug96 Digital DEC 600/5/266 A21164 38/266 4M+96+8/8 7.91 11.8 Sep95 Digital DEC 600/5/300 A21164 75/300 4M+96+8/8 9.78 13.4 Sep95 Digital DEC 600/5/333 A21164 83/333 4M+96+8/8 9.23 13.2 Feb96 Digital DEC 600A/5/500 A21164 ??/500 8M+96+8/8 14.8 17.4 May97 www.dec DEC PW433AU A21164 ??/433 2M+96+8/8 13.9 18.1 Jul97 www.specb DEC PW500AU A21164 ??/500 2M+96+8/8 15.7 19.5 Jul97 www.specb DEC PW600AU A21164 ??/600 2M+96+8/8 18.4 21.3 Jun97 www.specb DEC 3000/500 A21064 30/150 512+8/8 2.15 3.65 Sep95 Digital DEC 3000/700 A21064A 38/225 2M+16/16 3.66 5.71 Sep95 Digital DEC 3000/900 A21064A 39/275 2M+16/16 4.24 6.29 Sep95 Digital -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Fri May 23 11:57:00 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drive value Message-ID: <14e.1f52d6a7.2bffaca1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/23/03 2:42:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > So, whats an 8" floppy drive in unknown working state worth? > Last I checked Aluminum Breakage is worth 16 cents per pound. Full Height 8" Floppies weigh about 15 pounds so their scrap value is about $2.40 each. Most Scrap dealers like to get twice scrap value when they do an outside sale so a scrap dealer would likely put these drives aside if you offered him $5 each. Hope this helps. Paxton Astoria, OR From oldcomp at cox.net Fri May 23 12:06:00 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool References: <20030522191158.71592.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> <3ECDE863.2020605@cox.net> <02fc01c3211f$225870b0$0100a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <3ECE54B2.4040606@cox.net> I've never heard of it until just now, but in the catalog, it looks slick -Bryan. Dave Brown wrote: >What about the WSTA6? Any idea how it compares to the WST2? >DaveB >Christchurch, NZ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 23 12:13:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drive value References: <14e.1f52d6a7.2bffaca1@aol.com> Message-ID: <009a01c3214d$75aa4f80$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Yes, but how many are around that havnt been scrapped yet? Especially back when aluminum was worth something (before everybody recycled in the community dropped prices) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 12:56 PM Subject: Re: 8" floppy drive value > In a message dated 5/23/03 2:42:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > > > > So, whats an 8" floppy drive in unknown working state worth? > > > > Last I checked Aluminum Breakage is worth 16 cents per pound. Full Height 8" > Floppies weigh about 15 pounds so their scrap value is about $2.40 each. > > Most Scrap dealers like to get twice scrap value when they do an outside sale > so a scrap dealer would likely put these drives aside if you offered him $5 > each. > > Hope this helps. > > Paxton > Astoria, OR From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 23 12:53:00 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: retrobits.com addresses Message-ID: <200305231804.LAA15334@floodgap.com> Please update any links you have @ retrobits.com to the following URL: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ (e.g., http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/ -> http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/ ). Thank you! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From dan at ekoan.com Fri May 23 13:23:01 2003 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523141443.0454be80@enigma> At 02:32 PM 5/22/03 -0400, you wrote: > Okay guyz - here's your chance to get a late 70's Minicom IV >acoustic-coupled 110Baud data terminal from none other than the the author >of the TTL Cookbook, TV-Typewriter Cookbook, etc. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=2730754787 The device pictured in the auction is not a 110 baud terminal. It's a 45.5/50 baud TTY device, designed for deaf persons (is that the current politically correct term?) to communicate with other TTY-equipped parties via telephone. A quick Google search reveals new units currently for sale, direct from Ultratec and from other vendors. Here's the Ultratec listing: http://www.ultratec.com/ShopDTTY_MCIV.html I've seen these in thrift stores for less than $10. Cheers, Dan From cb at mythtech.net Fri May 23 13:25:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: IBM 8560 Message-ID: Any value to an IBM 8560? Or more correctly, is it something that someone on the list might be interested in. Its a full height tower 286 IBM ps/2 machine. There is at least one hard drive in it, and I think I have a 2nd for it (not sure the sizes, 20 or 40 MB I think). Last I knew it booted and worked fine. I've had it kicking around for some time, and its taking up space. I think it weighs about 40 lbs, so figure on 50 lbs packed for an estimate, shipped from 07450... anyone want it? -chris From cb at mythtech.net Fri May 23 14:04:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term Message-ID: >The device pictured in the auction is not a 110 baud terminal. >It's a 45.5/50 baud TTY device, designed for deaf persons >(is that the current politically correct term?) to communicate >with other TTY-equipped parties via telephone. I thought it looked amazingly like the TTY device my brother has. I just didn't want to speak up and show my ignorance (I'll do it now when I can point the finger at someone else as say "he said it first") -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 23 14:18:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523141443.0454be80@enigma> Message-ID: It is really shocking that Don Lancaster would misrepresent a current production TDD as being a "1978 era" dumb terminal. "easily brought up to museum quality" Can anybody believe that he doesn't know better? He didn't even mention that they are Baudot devices and use a modem protocol that is not compatible with Bell 103 (although some of the newest TDDs also support ASCII, Bell 103, and even 300 or more baud) If you have a documentable hearing impairment, there are phone company subsidized (note the little extra charge on every phone bill) programs that will loan you one long term for free. Before buying a used one, always check for the ownership sticker. On Fri, 23 May 2003, Dan Veeneman wrote: > At 02:32 PM 5/22/03 -0400, you wrote: > > Okay guyz - here's your chance to get a late 70's Minicom IV > >acoustic-coupled 110Baud data terminal from none other than the the author > >of the TTL Cookbook, TV-Typewriter Cookbook, etc. > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=2730754787 > > The device pictured in the auction is not a 110 baud terminal. > It's a 45.5/50 baud TTY device, designed for deaf persons > (is that the current politically correct term?) to communicate > with other TTY-equipped parties via telephone. A quick Google > search reveals new units currently for sale, direct from > Ultratec and from other vendors. Here's the Ultratec listing: > http://www.ultratec.com/ShopDTTY_MCIV.html > > I've seen these in thrift stores for less than $10. > > > Cheers, > > Dan From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Fri May 23 14:39:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030511221635.033d74e0@pop-server.socal.rr.com > References: <010501c31669$e05eeb40$0500fea9@game> <5.1.0.14.0.20030509020734.030af090@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030523153412.05f4e0c0@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Hello Mike, I couldn't help but noticing the message below from you a little while back, and I also remembered you messed with some apple and macintosh stuff. If you have any National Instruments Nubus NB-DIO32F boards, and the price is right, I might be able to buy all that you might have available that are in good condition. Best Regards At 10:27 PM 5/11/03 -0700, you wrote: >At 04:30 PM 5/9/03 -0400, TeoZ wrote: >>$25 for a nubus uwscsi or a IIgs card is fair, but on ebay some go for over >>$50. I find it funny how you see the same person with the same add selling >>one a day after his last auction sold. Is it the same one that was bid up by >>a shill or does he have a big pile of the rare cards. > > >For at least the last 5 years the MAJOR problem with Apple II related >items is that they don't sell for high enough price, often enough, to keep >more than a small percentage of systems from going directly into gold >recovery bins. I hate to think of how many items that we griped about the >silly selling price on ebay that are now gone, and never likely to show up >at other than wild prices if at all. 16 MB IIfx ram simms, eventide sound >cards for the IIe, Tokamac IIfx 68040 cards. > >Nobody is making a lot of money in classic computers, its more like >sifting a LOT of sand for a few small nuggets. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 23 14:46:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523141443.0454be80@enigma> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Dan Veeneman wrote: > The device pictured in the auction is not a 110 baud terminal. > It's a 45.5/50 baud TTY device, designed for deaf persons I just sent him an e-mail (through e-Bay) saying: "Does this differ in any way from a current production TDD? (Telecommunication Device for the Deaf, low speed Baudot TTYs used in place of voice)" Will he acknowledge a mistake? From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri May 23 18:16:01 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: DEC AlphaServer 1200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi All, Long time no see.. almost had to leave the hobby (as well, from what I've read... be safe, Jeff) but I am back. And things are looking up... I got a DEC AlphaServer (model 1200, EV56/533-4) with a load of RAM and disks, on which I want to install Tru64. Does anyone have the ECU diskette(s) for this beast? A pointer to a more recent version of T64 (I have a 5.0 kit) would be appreciated, too.. Cheers, Fred From owad at applefritter.com Fri May 23 19:08:00 2003 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: SparcServer 470 in PA Message-ID: <20030524000728.5989@mail.earthlink.net> I have a SparcServer 470 available in south-central PA. It's full of cards and looks complete. Powers up, but I haven't tested it further. I'd like to trade it for Apple or DEC equipment, maybe money, or the stuff listed here: . Also available: SparcServer 690MP rackmount chassis w/power supply. Free. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 23 19:37:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I just sent him an e-mail (through e-Bay) saying: > "Does this differ in any way from a current production TDD? > (Telecommunication Device for the Deaf, low speed Baudot TTYs used in > place of voice)" > Will he acknowledge a mistake? He replied, and acknowledged the mistake: --- Forwarded Message --- Apparently not. I only recently found out that the current Minicom IV devices exist. They make no sense whatsoever, since the web does a better job at zero cost. And since direct connect units could be built and sold for one tenth the cost or less. Reminds me of the days when Baudot teletypes were foisted off on the deaf as a cruel hoax. You had to be deaf to use a Baudot teletype. -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 23 20:39:00 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Ebay Don Lancaster Minicom term In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523141443.0454be80@enigma> References: Message-ID: <20030524013805.FHBY14958.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > The device pictured in the auction is not a 110 baud terminal. > It's a 45.5/50 baud TTY device, designed for deaf persons > (is that the current politically correct term?) to communicate > with other TTY-equipped parties via telephone. A quick Google > search reveals new units currently for sale, direct from > Ultratec and from other vendors. Here's the Ultratec listing: > http://www.ultratec.com/ShopDTTY_MCIV.html > > I've seen these in thrift stores for less than $10. > > > Cheers, > > Dan 10 bux? Aggguh! I own two of those IVs and one recent 4425, black keys were older versions, the newer ones were white keys plus any extras added as option and are currently in production. I must use them to communicate to others via relay or to another person w/ tty. In same era, Ultratec produced really good design & functicality in TDD compact. It's an 2 line backlighted LCD matrix w/ few features including clock (!!), opens up like a tiny notebook, surprising good keyboard for an cliclet keys. Runs on 4 AA for long time and extra cell for back up/clock. The main failing was the orange ribbon cable that connects both halves splits from opening/closing flexings. Must send it to Ultratec. They won't sell parts. I and other deaf friends moaned that nobody had designed newer TTYs that has good mono crisp LCD (I wish TFT), and do much more and lasts 1 week on battery with features like the PCT (personal communciator telephone) by french manufacturer years ago, now no longer produced. Runs on V40 CPU, 9" mono on a clicklet sh!t of piece keyboard! :-) But damned it does stores so many auto-answer callers' messages and store list of phone numbers for "speed" dialing. Superprint 4425, Pro80 and like does this similarily but uses power hungry VLD displays and very expensive, rechargeable battery (uses six AA rechargeable cells) that doesn't last long than 1 year before giving up ghost. etc, a charge runs about 15min if no main power available. :-P Cheers, Wizard (Deaf guy). PS: Pro80 prints on regular fax paper roll so that's almost an portable tty. 4425 for example uses narrow roll of thermal paper. PSS: Yes I did repair all of those models listed. From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 23 20:41:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Homemade Hot Air Soldering Tool In-Reply-To: <10305230748.ZM2145@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Peter Turnbull wrote: > > Sounds cool. I assume at some point you need to change out the steel > > wool? > > Probably not for a long time, if at all. Commercial steel wool is > oil-coated to prevent it rusting. Philip described his as going black, > which I expect will be the result of the oil carbonising in the hot air > stream. The result will be a tough coating of carbon that will prevent > oxidation. A similar idea is sometimes used for steel tools -- heat > until it develops a blue oxide layer then plunge into oil. The > resulting blue colour is fairly pretty, and rust-resistant. Groovy! But the question I was getting at is where does all the solder go? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 23 20:46:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Brian Chase wrote: > I'd really like to design and build a PDP-8 clone, since the real > ones command such hefty prices on eBay. I've mostly given up on > getting my own 8/F or 8/M. Great idea! > It's a simple enough architecture that it could be done without > too much trouble. And I'd have the benefit of being able to make > use of the exisiting library of PDP-8 software. The difficult > parts are a) knowing where to even begin, b) finding the time to > figure out how to do it, and c) finding the time to actually do it. I'll assume you're talking about the "straight" 8. There are enough FlipChip modules around that you could probably get 90% of the ones you need to make the processor and I/O sections without too much trouble. The difficulty will be in sourcing the rarer of the modules (as I have found). There'll be a lot of wire wrapping. The front panel can be scanned from an existing one (I'll be happy to provide you with a scan once I've got it completed) and then taken to your local printer's and applied to some sort of base (I'm just having it applied to a thin acrylic base). The switch handles will not be that easy to source. The front panel lamps are still available from some suppliers. The plexiglass sides can be manufactured without a lot of trouble. You'll have to find a plastic shop that can do the right bends, and you can find a close enough shade of teal for the top and trim. The steel frame will not be too difficult to manufacture. The power supply should be straight forward for someone with electrical skill. The rest is just aluminum trim, switches, locks, etc. It'll be a lot of work, but very gratifying. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 23 20:48:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drive value In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523023449.03117ec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Mike Ford wrote: > I stopped by one of my more rare to visit scrappers, and was disappointed > to see a number of 8" floppy drives mashed up in a huge bin of other drives > with aluminum frames. To prevent this requires I offer him enough more to > carefully handle and set aside these drives than he is getting for aluminum > scrap. > > So, whats an 8" floppy drive in unknown working state worth? $5-$10? > I also have to wonder what potentially NEAT thing these drives came out of > too. Sigh. Its a fine line you have to walk with scrappers, pay enough to > make it worthwhile to them, but not give them the idea that treasure might > be in there junkpile. Robotics? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 23 20:50:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drive value In-Reply-To: <009a01c3214d$75aa4f80$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > Yes, but how many are around that havnt been scrapped yet? Especially back > when aluminum was worth something (before everybody recycled in the > community dropped prices) There are surprisingly a good number of 8" drives out there. Some are still in use even(!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Fri May 23 20:51:00 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089C1@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> >I still have my ZX80 which preceded the Microtan. I I think they were the other way round. I reckon 1979 for the Tangerine and 1980 for the ZX80. I also drooled over that Microtan and ended up with a ZX81. By the way, there's a superb website devoted to the Microtan 65 here: http://www.geoff.org.uk/microtan_65.htm. It's got scans of manuals, magazines and all sorts. paul >Dave. From bill at timeguy.com Fri May 23 20:51:20 2003 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: HP nixie tube module information needed (fwd) Message-ID: <20030521105449.Q462-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> I asked my partner, and here's what he came up with about them. Hope it helps. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:41:52 -0500 From: Chris Radek To: Bill Richman Subject: Re: HP nixie tube module information needed (fwd) On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 04:24:22PM -0500, Bill Richman wrote: > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie1.jpg > http://www.ubanproductions.com/Images/nixie2.jpg All I know is they were used in counters. These have a binary to 1-of-10 decoder made out of photoresistors and neon bulbs (!) in the black box. It's not a HV supply like he guessed. It should be possible to make a clock but he'll have to modify some of them to reset before the usual cycle of 0-9. Resetting at 23:59:59 is probably harder and would take some kind of external logic. They already have a feedback to make them reset after 9 instead of counting to 15 - it just has to be modified. On the other hand if he wants to make a clock, nixies are cheap and it might be better to just leave the counter modules as-is and use some logic more suited to counting the time (which is not 10-based). I'm sorry I don't have a schematic. It should be easy to trace out - it's just four flip-flops and a feedback line for reset. From dcohoe at qualitymeats.on.ca Fri May 23 20:51:45 2003 From: dcohoe at qualitymeats.on.ca (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: FREE TO A GOOD HOME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004601c31fca$18a83ec0$8f02a8c0@DCOHOE> Hello Isildur, I'm interested in the Vax 11/750 and I need several Unibus modules for my 11/20, specifically M7260 and 7261. What do I have to do to show evidence of a good home? regards, Dan Cohoe > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Lord Isildur > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:42 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: FREE TO A GOOD HOME > > > So, my revised list of hardware free to a good home is as follows: > > 1 IBM RS6000 powerstation 250 > 1 Macintosh IIcx > 1 DECstation 3100 > 2 DECstation 2100 > 1 DECstation 5000/125 > 1 DEC3000/300 > 1 VAX 11/730 > 1 VAX 11/750 > 1 HP 9000/300 > All the guts of a VAX 6000/400 > 1 sparc 2 > 1 sun 3/60 > 1 TU80 9track tape drive > 1 DECsystem 5400 > 1 MicroVAX in a BA213 - must go quickly > Lots of TK50s, Qbus parts, and tons of manuals. > > All the gear is in Pittsburgh, PA, free for pickup. > > Happy hacking, > isildur From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 23 20:52:20 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:50 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <001e01c31fed$420dd9a0$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Don't forget the idiotic messages they've been leaving on here. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 21 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > I removed this person from BOTH lists. However, I just have to comment... I > find it rather incredulous that this person was smart enough to figure out > how to subscribe to not one, but BOTH views of this list, yet couldn't > figure out how to unsubscribe. Even moreso, they must have missed the clear > indications on the website of who to contact for such stuff. And I guess > they couldn't see the headers on every email they get that says how to > unsubscribe... etc. etc.. GRRRR > > Grumpy List Admin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thompson Family" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:43 PM > Subject: Re: openvms... another question > > > > take me off this f-----g list From snickers48180 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 20:52:39 2003 From: snickers48180 at yahoo.com (Martine Allman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Coleco Message-ID: <20030521221713.28073.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I saw a forum on line and your email was there. I was wondering if you could solve my problem. When I turn on system, the screen says turn off game before inserting cartridge. It does have the coleco logo so I know it has power and rf is working. I did what it said and I also hit the reset button but I get the same screen. I also cleaned the contacts on the cartridges. Do you have any idea what is wrong? Thank you for your time, Snickers48180@yahoo.com The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 23 20:52:59 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 In-Reply-To: <002301c31fa4$d120a120$9600a8c0@Luis> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Luis G?mez > Sent: 21 May 2003 15:25 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 > > > I'm repairing an Enterprise 128. Has somebody experience > repairing this computer? > > I have other Enterprise 64 in perfect condition. > > 12v DC and 5v DC in board are ok > Eprom chip is ok (i exchanged it between two computer) > > I have schematic but only og memory expansion, and i/o circuit, > including Dave chip. > > I need schematics of complete board. Dammit, I've got a ton of Enterprise stuff including factory machinery and technical documentation as well as unused or returned machines, but out of all that the one thing I haven't got is a full schematic. The people who were at Enterprise (or Elan, or Flan or whoever :) I've contacted don't seem to want to talk about their creation, which is a bloody shame. Then again times were hard back then, and people were being screwed over on a regular basis so I can understand, sort of. Doesn't help me get my prototype hard drive interfaces working though, does it :o) Luis, if you need anything from the technical docs I can scan or (hopefully) photocopy, but it's purely words and no pictures..... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 23 20:53:19 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: <007901c31fb1$e401c6e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Do you still have the link? I'd like to see that. 8-> Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 21 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > I haven't laughed so hard.... since Sellam posted that link to the guy who > played with the nigerian email scammers! > > Re: > > This is diabolical - evil - reprehensible - unconconsionable - > > sick/twisted - dangerous - damn funny. > > > > http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 23 20:53:40 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: openvms... another question In-Reply-To: <000901c31fea$63864ca0$6401a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7> Message-ID: Take it easy and RTFM. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 21 May 2003, Thompson Family wrote: > take me off this fucking list > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andreas Freiherr" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:14 AM > Subject: Re: openvms... another question > > > > Jay, > > > > you didn't see a lot of messages from me recently because I am pretty > > busy with my job, which is OpenVMS support, mostly for European sites of > > the company I am working for. > > > > I don't think you can download everything that is on "official" VMS > > media. Even if you could, you would need some bandwidth and/or time: the > > VMS kit V7.2-1 (granted, my copy is for Alpha, not for VAX processors) > > is one CD for the O/S, another for the firmware (which would not be > > required for a VAX), one for documentation, and two for layered products. > > > > There is a separate kit, called the "Software Products Library" and > > "Online Documentation Library", which consists of 18 (eighteen!) CDs. If > > that's what you were offered, you'll certainly prefer pickup over > download. > > > > As the "documentation" in the kit or CD descriptions implies, you may > > not need manuals after you have the CDs. > > > > And, definitely no, VMS does not run on PDPs. You can currently buy it > > for VAX or Alpha architectures (the latter now also being on-topic), and > > a port to Itanium is on its way (first booted in last January). VMS > > does, however, have a design that is based on and closely related to > > RSX-11M, an operating system for PDP-11s. > > > > Hope that helps! > > > > Regards, > > Andreas > > > > Jay West wrote: > > > Ok, I know NOTHING about openVMS. However, this just came up... > > > > > > A friend of a friend offered me what he says is a complete set of > OpenVMS > > > media. No manuals, just the media. > > > > > > Several questions: > > > > > >>From what I understand, isn't there some type of hobbyist free license > for > > > openvms? If so, not sure why I should grab the media from him if I can > just > > > download it. Or is there a value to getting the media from him, as to it > > > giving me the ability to purchase a license transfer or something... in > > > short, is there a special reason getting "real" media is desirable? > > > > > > Lastly... he said it runs on vax's and pdp's. Not sure if he knows what > he's > > > talking about, so I'll ask here. Could this run on my 11/44? > > > > > > Thanks for any enlightenment! > > > > > > Jay West > > > > -- > > Andreas Freiherr > > Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany > > http://www.vishay.com From ram_suganthi at hotmail.com Fri May 23 20:54:01 2003 From: ram_suganthi at hotmail.com (Ram & Suganthi M.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Transputer equipment on Ebay Message-ID: I put up some transputer stuff on ebay in order to clean up things and make room for some more new toys. Among the items is a CSA TEK with mint documentation and unopened software box... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=2731552878 Cheers, Ram _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com Fri May 23 20:54:22 2003 From: Paul.HILLS at landisgyr.com (Hills, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Revengish URL Message-ID: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089C7@ohm1003a.uk.landisgyr.com> Those picture are all very interesting, but it's the results - or even better the doing - that is much more interesting to see... http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/esd.html! paul -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] Sent: 21 May 2003 18:04 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Revengish URL Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: > This is diabolical - evil - reprehensible - unconconsionable - >sick/twisted - dangerous - damn funny. > >http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ > >For those who eschew browsers - it's a series of pictures of all the usual >computer and networking connectors - - - spliced onto AC Mains cords. ;{} They missed one -- True Story: I had a lady walk into our store and said she needed a special cable for her Mac, but didn't know exactly what it was. I showed her several cables from our stock, and she verified the port this cable was supposed to plug into was the USB port, but she was *positive* the other end was supposed to plug into the wall. I was [evil ascii grafic follows]: ===>||<=== *this close* to saying "I'd be *more* than happy to wire that up for you, ma'am!!!" Imagining her plugging *that* bastage in... that gave all of us here at the shop quite a chuckle for a good long time... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From Geoff.Stevens at castle-cs.com Fri May 23 20:54:42 2003 From: Geoff.Stevens at castle-cs.com (Geoff Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Adaptec ACB 4070 Message-ID: <28843AA6A8E00A408D01D15F946F3EDB139E96@kirkcaldy.castle-cs.com> Richard, Do you still have the manual for the above. I am prepared to pay swap borrow whatever to get a copy or sight of it. I have an old BBC hard drive ( in door stop mode)which uses it so it would be really handy. rgds Geoff Castle Computer Services Ltd. Stewart House, Pochard Way, Strathclyde Business Park, Bellshill, ML4 3HB. Tel: 0845 230 1314, Fax: 0845 230 1615 Castle Computer Services Ltd. The Rural Centre, Ingliston, Edinburgh, EH28 8LT. Tel: 0845 230 1314, Fax: 0845 230 1615 Castle Computer Services Ltd. 47 Albert Street, Aberdeen, AB25 1XT. Tel: 0845 230 1314, Fax: 0845 230 1615 Website: www.castle-cs.com This e-mail is private and confidential and may be legally privileged. It is for the attention of intended recipients only and access by others is unauthorised. It is not intended to be relied upon without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Castle Computer Services Ltd. disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences of any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on the information in this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 23 20:55:03 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: BBC Masters available for free, UK In-Reply-To: <000501c31bcf$cf602230$b2024e51@graemedntzltme> Message-ID: Hi folks, Here's a mail I've received from another collectors list, a teacher is retiring soon and wants homes for 20 complete BBC Masters. Manchester area. As usual, please contact him directly: > I have around 20 128 Masters , disc drives and monitors and software > available free for anyone to pick up in next two months. Can you > tell me of any sites that might be interested. Manchester area. > yes feel free to pass my e-mail but it is important that i am > contacted soon. The reason is that i am a teacher and am retiring > in July and my successor wants to throw out the Master we have... > g thompson" cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From DABIGDOG143 at cs.com Fri May 23 20:55:30 2003 From: DABIGDOG143 at cs.com (DABIGDOG143@cs.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems Message-ID: In response to the question of which came first, Non-Linear Systems or, Kaypro Corporation. I worked in the purchasing department of both companies during the 1980s. Kaypro Corporation was a division of the parent company Non-Linear Systems which was established in the 1950s by Andrew Kay, who was the innovator of the digital volt meter. In the early 1980s, Non-Linear Systems began building the Kaypro portable computer after Kay's Son-in-law, Jonathan Badder, a local architect in partnership with Kay's Daughter Janice Kay, expressed a desire to have a portable computer to take out to job sites. When the Kaypro portable computer became an overnight success and far eclipsed the volt meter business, Kay established the computer division known as Kaypro Corporation. Both products were manufactured simultaneously at the Solana Beach, California location at 533 Stevens Avenue, near the Lomas Santa Fe exit of Interstate 5. When I joined the Company in early 1983 we went from about 50 employees to over 500 within a year. Andrew Kay was a very interesting and forward thinking employer, hence the name of his original company Non-Linear Systems, since he prided himself on non-linear thinking. He was a very health conscious individual, and had a juice and salad bar installed, which all employees could dine at for only a dollar. He tried to treat everyone as extended family, and believed that a work environment that incorporated nature in it's design would produce better work. Therefore, every office had windows in front and back, with a row of trees and grass between each building. It required some considerable walking to negotiate around the plant, but he believed that walking promoted good health. He also was very interested in personal intellect, and in the early stages of Kaypro, everybody had to take a sort of IQ test that he designed and administered. He also made versions of the Kaypro that were marketed as the "Tutor Computer" that were a learning aide for children. It was a fun place to work in the early days, with a very young average employee age. We were encouraged to work hard, and to play hard. Lots of parties, barbecues, intramural sports teams, and the like. It was fun to go to work everyday. During the push to increase shipments before the Company's initial public stock offering, we received some very generous bonuses, including a Christmas bonus equal to a month's salary, which we received around December 15th. In the latter 1980s the company was plagued by poor quality, serious inventory management problems, a revolving door on upper management that included a long parade of self-impressed no-nothings that couldn't break free of their linear thinking, and a serious lack of continued product innovation. After the big boys like IBM jumped on the bandwagon of the PC and laptop market, Kaypro just couldn't compete. All these factors and a few more, including the employment of Kay family members in key positions that did not have the capabilities of founder Andrew Kay, eventually led to the demise of Kaypro. I think that the business section writer for the San Diego Union Tribune said it best when he penned the phrase "Too many Kays and not enough Pros." Garr Farrell From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 23 20:55:54 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: VAX vs. Alpha for OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <20030522184901.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > The Alpha will be perhaps 2-3 times faster (at least going by the SPEC > > numbers I can find for related models and guessing a little based on > > frequencies). > > Really? The Alpha has about twice as much MHz, but the 21064 is known to > need a lot of MHz per MIPS. Of course any NVAX-based VAX would stomp all over a 21064, but the 4k60 is significantly slower than a 4k90. Peace... Sridhar From stuart at stuartsjohnsonfamily.net Fri May 23 20:56:15 2003 From: stuart at stuartsjohnsonfamily.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: New toy - HP 1611A Opt A65 Message-ID: <079701c320b5$3e765e20$0200a8c0@cosmo> I just received a HP 1611A Logic Analyzer with Option A65 (6502 uP) and I am looking for 1) documentation, and 2) how to make the cable from the pod to the uP socket. My internet search (Google) turned up - zilch. If anyone has the operations manual and/or the service manual or knows where they might exist online, I would appreciate you posting the address or emailing it to me. If someone has the manuals and would loan them for scanning, that would be helpful too. Ditto for the manuals for sale. I'm sure the cable from the pod to the uP socket is quite simple, but as I haven't seen one in 15+ years, could someone describe it for me? If someone has one for sale, that would be good too. I am also interested in acquiring options for this unit: HP #01611-62107 Microprocessor Logic Probe for 8080A, 9080, and Similar Chips HP #10260A Logic Analysis Plug-In Module and HP #01611 62105 Microprocessor Logic Probe for Z-80A and Similar Chips HP #01611-62101 External 8 Bit Probes HP #1540-0325 Accessory Large Carry Case. or other items not listed. Many thanks, Stuart Johnson From hansp at citem.org Fri May 23 20:56:37 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <008d01c320e4$512de360$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <008d01c320e4$512de360$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <3ECDDB91.2080703@citem.org> TeoZ wrote: > Are the computers at a museum run at all? How much of an old > computer/mainframe is repairable with modern components and how much is > custom equipment that needs spares? So far we have over a dozen machines known to be in working order ranging from a PDP-9 an IBM 1130, through to microcomputer systems. We have, so far, never had the need to replace any original component with modern replacements though we have had discussions as to how and why such a replacemnt would be justified. > I would think the museums have static > displays and are mostly worried about them being complete, but not worried > about functionality. I agree, but their worry is unfounded. Since they will never run the machines they may as well completely gut them and show simply the cabinet, its all you see in most cases anyway! I had a discussion with a museum from whom we wanted to borrow a machine, the last known example, in order to restore it to working order. They said that was not int heir charter and that they wanted to preserve the machine in the state they found it. What a waste!!!! This is my main gripe about museums, a static display loses over 90% of the interest of a machine. What use knowing the size and color of the cabinet if you have no insigght into what went on inside! > Over the years how many people are still around who can > operate, repair, or maintain 50's era computers? Power requirements would > also be a pain for the older models. This is clearly an issue we need to pass on these skills to a younger generation. Here at ACONIT our goal is a conservatoire of computing history, hopefully as such it will perpetuate the skills needed. The issue of resoucres is clearly important also. -- hbp From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri May 23 20:56:59 2003 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-7 Message-ID: Hello all! I'm restoring a PDP-7 machine to functional condition, pictures at http://tore.nortia.no. Anyone here ever worked at DEC while this was happening? Anyone know anything about the PDP-7? I saw a post regarding a still-functional PDP-7 running a Van der Graaff posted July 2002, but the poster doesn't reply to my mail. Know where it was? -Tore "Pluribus unum, infinitiv thesaurus. Cardio anima stinki latina!" From Anthony.G.Manzo at mail.sprint.com Fri May 23 20:57:21 2003 From: Anthony.G.Manzo at mail.sprint.com (Manzo, Anthony G) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Vaxen Message-ID: <2A52ADC3BA99934893FF58C1749DC8B8E393B3@PKDWB03C.ad.sprint.com> Hello, Are your VAX still available to a good home? I have a need for an 11/750 and tape units. Thanks in advance for your reply. Sincerely, A.G. Manzo From hansp at citem.org Fri May 23 20:57:41 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Rolling your own PDP-8 clone (was Re: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65) In-Reply-To: <20030523140636.48501.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030523140636.48501.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECE5429.4080303@citem.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Alternately, there are a few projects out there you could borrow from > to implement a PDP-8 core in an FPGA. Because of the simplicity > and the extensive documentation, it was frequently assigned as a > student project. Or tutor's project ;-) I am implementing the PDP-8 in parallel with a student doing a PDP-9 for a university project. I'll be publishing my design once it runs some serious software.... -- hbp From hansp at citem.org Fri May 23 20:58:05 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ECE56B3.1070302@citem.org> Brian Chase wrote: > It's a simple enough architecture that it could be done without > too much trouble. And I'd have the benefit of being able to make > use of the exisiting library of PDP-8 software. The difficult > parts are a) knowing where to even begin, b) finding the time to > figure out how to do it I have a student text book which describes this in quite some detail. It is with my student at this time, I will send you the details next week. Poke me if you do not hear by next thursday.... -- hbp From mrfusion at uranium.vaxpower.org Fri May 23 20:58:27 2003 From: mrfusion at uranium.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Symbolics 3650 lisp machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i have up for sale on ebay a symbolics 3650 lisp machine. 4 MW (18 MB) of memory, 750 MB disk, genera 8.3 installed works, in good condition, screen excellent with no burn in, located in pittsburgh, PA http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2731980507 happy hacking, isildur From vance at neurotica.com Fri May 23 20:58:55 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: IBM 8560 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is little or no value to that machine. It is certainly not worth any shipping. I would take it if it were free. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 23 May 2003, chris wrote: > Any value to an IBM 8560? Or more correctly, is it something that someone > on the list might be interested in. > > Its a full height tower 286 IBM ps/2 machine. There is at least one hard > drive in it, and I think I have a 2nd for it (not sure the sizes, 20 or > 40 MB I think). Last I knew it booted and worked fine. > > I've had it kicking around for some time, and its taking up space. I > think it weighs about 40 lbs, so figure on 50 lbs packed for an estimate, > shipped from 07450... anyone want it? > > -chris > From aek at spies.com Fri May 23 21:01:40 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: 8" floppy drive value Message-ID: <200305240155.h4O1tGeI016564@spies.com> if one should show up, I'd like to find a Memorex 650/651 drive to try reading some discs someone gave me. it is hard sectored, with the sector holes on the outside edge of the disc instead of the inside. From aek at spies.com Fri May 23 21:06:00 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-7 Message-ID: <200305240202.h4O22d7d017701@spies.com> but, is there any SOFTWARE? From aek at spies.com Fri May 23 21:06:22 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Adaptec ACB 4070 Message-ID: <200305240206.h4O26FV5018042@spies.com> I'll put a scan of the manual for the 4000 series up for you at www.spies.com/aek/pdf/adaptec From Innfogra at aol.com Fri May 23 21:06:43 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP7 Message-ID: <171.1eee1aba.2c002d2f@aol.com> Hi; The lab where it is at is closed and the current super is on vacation. I will ask if he wants to help when he returns in mid June. Paxton Astoria, OR From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 23 21:10:01 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Sudden stale message dump Message-ID: I just got 17 messages in a chunk, from the one I've forwarded below onward - I wonder who along the way has been storing traffic in it's cheeks... ? Note the date/time stamping - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:12:41 +0100 From: "Hills, Paul" Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org To: "'cctalk@classiccmp.org'" Subject: RE: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 >I still have my ZX80 which preceded the Microtan. I Cheerz John From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 23 21:53:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) References: <008d01c320e4$512de360$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <3ECDDB91.2080703@citem.org> Message-ID: <003401c3219e$6cb5a9a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Well some museum people function like archeologists, they want to leave the machine in the state they found it in the wild. People like you want to restore the machine to the same state it left the factory most likely. Very few computers that are put out to pasture are probably in the state they were when they were sold and shipped. Along the way addons are released that increase functionality, speed, reliability, etc just like the PC today that you buy will probably get trashed in 5 years with completely different guts, storage, memory etc. Who is to say whats wrong and whats right in what state is correct for that machine? Like I said before museums have static displays for reasons of power requirements, lack of personnel that can run the machines, spare parts that are expensive and hard to find, and the fact that a screwup during operation could actually destroy one of the few remaining examples (or only one). Most devices in a museum are there for either art or function (or combination). The older machines are not much to look at without being powered up and running. I am 34 years old and I have seen a punch card reader, but never seen one hooked up and running. I have never used an 8" floppy, or run the earliest PC's that did computations via dip switch settings on the front panel. the only mainframe I have ever used was in colege doing fortran programming and that machine wasnt even in the same state. I have to admit there is nothing like running a complex fortran program in .001 seconds (would have taken an hour on the PC's we had at the time) to get an answer and then waiting 20 minutes for the local monster printer to spit out the answer and get it posted into my mailbox. Firearms have evolved over 100's of years and the original versions still have alot in common with current units. People of today can relate to how the original versions were used even without using one. Compare this to computers that are only 60+ years old. Does a person who has a PC today have any idea what the monster computer that took up a whole room in 1946 does and how? There was no monitor, no keyboard, and no mouse they are totally different today, how can people relate to this? While there are still a few people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will be nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things are changing too fast. Static displays with a video of what they looked like when running will be all thats left (if people are smart enough to record the thing running before the last operator or machine is to old). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans B Pufal" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 4:28 AM Subject: Re: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) > > I had a discussion with a museum from whom we wanted to borrow a > machine, the last known example, in order to restore it to working > order. They said that was not int heir charter and that they wanted to > preserve the machine in the state they found it. What a waste!!!! > > This is my main gripe about museums, a static display loses over 90% of > the interest of a machine. What use knowing the size and color of the > cabinet if you have no insigght into what went on inside! > > > Over the years how many people are still around who can > > operate, repair, or maintain 50's era computers? Power requirements would > > also be a pain for the older models. > > This is clearly an issue we need to pass on these skills to a younger > generation. Here at ACONIT our goal is a conservatoire of computing > history, hopefully as such it will perpetuate the skills needed. The > issue of resoucres is clearly important also. > > -- hbp From vaxzilla at jarai.org Fri May 23 22:58:01 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 23 May 2003, Brian Chase wrote: > > I'd really like to design and build a PDP-8 clone, since the real > > ones command such hefty prices on eBay. I've mostly given up on > > getting my own 8/F or 8/M. > > Great idea! Heh. The 8/F or 8/M would be my ideal choices. They're newer models but still have proper consoles. The 8/A has that ugly pushbutton thing. The older models seem to be so highly sought after by collectors that they're priced beyond what they'd be worth to me. I've been looking for a fairly simple setup, maybe with a papertape punch/reader for I/O to provide the collection with some blinkenlights and whirring mechanical bits. > > It's a simple enough architecture that it could be done without > > too much trouble. And I'd have the benefit of being able to make > > use of the exisiting library of PDP-8 software. The difficult > > parts are a) knowing where to even begin, b) finding the time to > > figure out how to do it, and c) finding the time to actually do it. > > I'll assume you're talking about the "straight" 8. > > There are enough FlipChip modules around that you could probably get > 90% of the ones you need to make the processor and I/O sections > without too much trouble. The difficulty will be in sourcing the > rarer of the modules (as I have found). [...] If I were to devise my own, I'd not plan on it being a replica of an existing PDP-8. I'd just like a functionally equivalent system. And probably more importantly than having the machine, I'd like to learn how to build a non-trivial processor from the ground up. Along the way I'd have to pick up the craft of building and testing electronic devices, so there are lots of nice side-effects. The SBC-6120 mentioned earlier in this thread is interesting. It does have the drawback being that it lacks support for a proper blinkenlight and toggle switch console. Also, using a microprocessor seems a bit like cheating, too, but I can certainly understand it from the standpoint of being practical for the designer's needs. At the moment, given my various resource constraints, I'm torn between going this route, settling with a PDP-8/A, or continuing on the no-cost route of using a software based emulator (until a proper system wanders my way.) Ah well. -brian. From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 24 00:58:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003 vance@neurotica.com wrote: > Do you still have the link? I'd like to see that. 8-> khttp://www.quatloos.com/brad-christensen.htm -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 24 01:19:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <003401c3219e$6cb5a9a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > Well some museum people function like archeologists, they want to leave the > machine in the state they found it in the wild. People like you want to > restore the machine to the same state it left the factory most likely. Very > few computers that are put out to pasture are probably in the state they > were when they were sold and shipped. Along the way addons are released that > increase functionality, speed, reliability, etc just like the PC today that > you buy will probably get trashed in 5 years with completely different guts, > storage, memory etc. Who is to say whats wrong and whats right in what state > is correct for that machine? With older machines it is important to know what technologies the manufacture implemented to design their machine, because this is then how we determine the state of the art for various eras. Modifications to the machine would have been in the form of engineering updates or additional features or instructions. So the machine as it came from the factory and a machine that came out of production may have considerable differences worth studying, because it would indicate a change over time (years usually) as the technology advanced. Nowadays, that technological progression is measured in months, and less. Plus the technology is homegenous: it's all mostly PC. So the changes are usually not that significant or extraordinary or interesting. I think the right way to display a machine is to get it working while simultaneously preserving its historical fabric. The Computer History Museum revived an IBM 1620 in a very intelligent way: they used whatever modern parts were necessary to get it running again (in this case semiconductor memory to replace the damaged core plane) but they made all the modifications in a non-destructive, easily reversible fashion, i.e. no permanent modifications to the original machine. More information on the project can be found here: http://www.computerhistory.org/volunteers/past_volunteers/IBM1620/ This is a really common sense approach to restoration and preservation. > Like I said before museums have static displays for reasons of power > requirements, lack of personnel that can run the machines, spare parts that > are expensive and hard to find, and the fact that a screwup during operation > could actually destroy one of the few remaining examples (or only one). Most Is it better to try and fail to restore a machine than to just leave it static fretting that it might be destroyed in the process? What is destroyed? Killing a rare (or one-of-a-kind) chip? If you put the best people on the job and something goes wrong then I think that's better than never having tried a restoration to begin with. I mean, the thing isn't going to explode or anything. Worst case a chip fries or a board burns up. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 24 01:22:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Brian Chase wrote: > probably more importantly than having the machine, I'd like to learn how > to build a non-trivial processor from the ground up. Along the way I'd Building a PDP-8 replica would certainly give you that experience. > have to pick up the craft of building and testing electronic devices, so > there are lots of nice side-effects. FlipChip modules are all discrete components. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Sat May 24 01:35:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: <5B835935122FD411845C0800060DDD3901C089C7@ohm1003a.uk.landi sgyr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030524023244.0603b410@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> He/they have a couple of pages related to Nixie Tubes and building clocks from them. Display and counting tubes http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/count.html Build a Nixie Tube Digital Clock http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/nixclock.html At 02:03 PM 5/22/03 +0100, you wrote: >Those picture are all very interesting, but it's the results - or even >better the doing - that is much more interesting to see... > >http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/esd.html! > >paul > >-----Original Message----- >From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] >Sent: 21 May 2003 18:04 >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Revengish URL > > >Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: > > This is diabolical - evil - reprehensible - unconconsionable - > >sick/twisted - dangerous - damn funny. > > > >http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ > > > >For those who eschew browsers - it's a series of pictures of all the usual > >computer and networking connectors - - - spliced onto AC Mains cords. ;{} > >They missed one -- True Story: > >I had a lady walk into our store and said she needed a special cable for >her Mac, but didn't know exactly what it was. I showed her several cables >from our stock, and she verified the port this cable was supposed to plug >into was the USB port, but she was *positive* the other end was supposed to >plug into the wall. > >I was [evil ascii grafic follows]: > >===>||<=== > >*this close* to saying "I'd be *more* than happy to wire that up for you, >ma'am!!!" > >Imagining her plugging *that* bastage in... that gave all of us here at the >shop quite a chuckle for a good long time... > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >zmerch@30below.com > >What do you do when Life gives you lemons, >and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 24 10:29:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Interesting tape reader on eBay Message-ID: This is an odd reader made by Tally(?) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2730202301&category=1247 Worth a look. This is mostly a heads-up for the UK folks since that's where it is. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jforbes2 at mindspring.com Sat May 24 12:21:00 2003 From: jforbes2 at mindspring.com (J Forbes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Tube logic (was: HP nixie tube module) Message-ID: <3ECFAA24.1010301@mindspring.com> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 04:24:22PM -0500, Bill Richman wrote: > All I know is they were used in counters. These have a binary to > 1-of-10 decoder made out of photoresistors and neon bulbs (!) in > the black box. It's not a HV supply like he guessed. > > It should be possible to make a clock but he'll have to modify some > of them to reset before the usual cycle of 0-9. Resetting at > 23:59:59 is probably harder and would take some kind of external > logic. > > They already have a feedback to make them reset after 9 instead of > counting to 15 - it just has to be modified. > > On the other hand if he wants to make a clock, nixies are cheap > and it might be better to just leave the counter modules as-is and > use some logic more suited to counting the time (which is not > 10-based). I have a tube digital clock, which I made out of a Beckman Berkeley counter. The counter uses decade modules, each with four tubes used as flip-flops, and ten neon lamps which display the count on a numbered 0-9 plasic window. The HP modules work pretty much the same way as the Beckman tube modules, although the binary to decimal decoding scheme is different in that it uses light and photoresistors instead of resistor networks. http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2/tubeclock/index.html shows my clock. The counter modules could possibly be used as the basis for a tube computer...maybe. I have a bunch of extra modules. I believe my brother has the schematic for the HP counter that uses the nixie modules, and he has one of the HP counters. -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 From cbajpai at attbi.com Sat May 24 12:23:01 2003 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c32219$6ddc8080$6f7ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Looks like CEO Andrew Kay is still around..selling wintel boxes. http://www.kaycomputers.com/andy.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of DABIGDOG143@cs.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:13 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems In response to the question of which came first, Non-Linear Systems or, Kaypro Corporation. I worked in the purchasing department of both companies during the 1980s. Kaypro Corporation was a division of the parent company Non-Linear Systems which was established in the 1950s by Andrew Kay, who was the innovator of the digital volt meter. In the early 1980s, Non-Linear Systems began building the Kaypro portable computer after Kay's Son-in-law, Jonathan Badder, a local architect in partnership with Kay's Daughter Janice Kay, expressed a desire to have a portable computer to take out to job sites. When the Kaypro portable computer became an overnight success and far eclipsed the volt meter business, Kay established the computer division known as Kaypro Corporation. Both products were manufactured simultaneously at the Solana Beach, California location at 533 Stevens Avenue, near the Lomas Santa Fe exit of Interstate 5. When I joined the Company in early 1983 we went from about 50 employees to over 500 within a year. Andrew Kay was a very interesting and forward thinking employer, hence the name of his original company Non-Linear Systems, since he prided himself on non-linear thinking. He was a very health conscious individual, and had a juice and salad bar installed, which all employees could dine at for only a dollar. He tried to treat everyone as extended family, and believed that a work environment that incorporated nature in it's design would produce better work. Therefore, every office had windows in front and back, with a row of trees and grass between each building. It required some considerable walking to negotiate around the plant, but he believed that walking promoted good health. He also was very interested in personal intellect, and in the early stages of Kaypro, everybody had to take a sort of IQ test that he designed and administered. He also made versions of the Kaypro that were marketed as the "Tutor Computer" that were a learning aide for children. It was a fun place to work in the early days, with a very young average employee age. We were encouraged to work hard, and to play hard. Lots of parties, barbecues, intramural sports teams, and the like. It was fun to go to work everyday. During the push to increase shipments before the Company's initial public stock offering, we received some very generous bonuses, including a Christmas bonus equal to a month's salary, which we received around December 15th. In the latter 1980s the company was plagued by poor quality, serious inventory management problems, a revolving door on upper management that included a long parade of self-impressed no-nothings that couldn't break free of their linear thinking, and a serious lack of continued product innovation. After the big boys like IBM jumped on the bandwagon of the PC and laptop market, Kaypro just couldn't compete. All these factors and a few more, including the employment of Kay family members in key positions that did not have the capabilities of founder Andrew Kay, eventually led to the demise of Kaypro. I think that the business section writer for the San Diego Union Tribune said it best when he penned the phrase "Too many Kays and not enough Pros." Garr Farrell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 24 16:47:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030523101205.H213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 23, 3 10:12:05 am Message-ID: > On 2003.05.22 22:18 Tony Duell wrote: > > > > - power inlet unit with mains cable, circuit breaker ... and a PCB > > > that looks like a small PSU. > > If that's a PCB that covers the top side of that module, > Yes. Do you have a cable with a white (nylon?) edge connector to fit onto the front edge of this PCB? If not, you need to make one. > > Maybe the odd cable or connector is missing, but you have the main > > parts. > Souns good. When I get the H745 and H7441 PSU bricks working I will try > to build a minimal setup to see if the CPU and RAM is alive. Then add > the peripheral controllers ... Unfortunately SMPSUs are not my friends.=20 Actually, these bricks are relatively friendly in that there are no lethal voltages in them (they runn form a 20-30V AC input, which comes from the big transformer and is isolated from the mains). The maximum current that will flow in the event of a short circuit is not that high either (10's of amps), although it is enough to make small signal transistors explode (that's from experience!). > > And if the machine works there is the next task: Rebuild the rusty RK07. I bought an RK07 that was full of water (seriously, it poured out of the hollow baseplate...). After drying it out, cleaning the heads, connectors, etc, it worked fine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 24 16:49:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics CHAMP/Tangerine Microtan 65 In-Reply-To: <200305230045.RAA05667@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 22, 3 05:45:10 pm Message-ID: [...] > >I am doing a 20 bit CPU with about 125 chips total > >in the computer and front panel. About 50? > >more chips for memory and serial i/o. > > > >http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/ldp/ldp1.html > >Ben. > > > > Hi > All make the assumption that you must make 8 bit/16bit > or, in your case, 20 bit. One can make a 1 bit alu that > can have data width controlled by instruction. It may This may not reduce the IC count that much!. I've recently been looking at the HP9810-series calculators, and the processor in there is a bit serial unit. There are 4 cards of around 20 chips each for the processor (control, data path, clock, I/O interface) and another 2 or 3 cards, again 20 chips each, for the mrmory interface. Which is easily comparable to a full-parallel 16 bit processor. -tony From mross666 at hotmail.com Sat May 24 17:31:00 2003 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? Message-ID: IBM made a bunch of printer terminals based around the Selectric typewriter - 1052, 2740, 2970 etc. Look in any old copy of BYTE, and you'll also find several vendors were selling 3rd party terminals based around IBM Selectrics, often converted for ASCII/RS-232c operation, as teletype alternatives. Where have they all gone? (I appreciate, from what I've heard, that many folks who used them in anger would reply 'I don't know, I don't care, good riddance!') Early DECwriters are not uncommon. Teletypes are (almost) ten a penny, ASR33s show up frequently enough on ebay, I have several. But the only Selectric based unit I've *seen* in over ten years of collecting is a 2970 Reservation Termainal (see http://www.corestore.org/2970-1.jpg ) which I was offered a year or so ago. It needs a fair bit of TLC, and it's a print-only device; it can receive data from a host and print it, but not send anything back from the keyboard. I'd love to get a bidirectional equivalent to use as an 'authentic' terminal for a 360 emulator I work with... any clues? Can anyone recommend a Selectric repair shop? No way I want to try to fettle something THIS mechanically-intimidating myself! Mike http://www.corestore.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 24 18:08:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <3ECDDB91.2080703@citem.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 23, 3 10:28:01 am Message-ID: > This is my main gripe about museums, a static display loses over 90% of > the interest of a machine. What use knowing the size and color of the > cabinet if you have no insigght into what went on inside! I agree. The problem seems to be that many of the traditional exhibits in museums (fine art, archeology, etc) _are_ static objects and the appearence is, in general all that matters and all that can be observed. This is _not_ true of computers (or other scientific and engineering-related objects), but the museums don't seem to realise this and apply the same policies to all objects. If all the meusume is interested in is the appearance of the case, then why does it matter if somebody restores the internals? The case is unchanged by doing this. The fact that the machine might well run again and would thus give additional information as to the state of computing years ago would seem to be a bonus. > > > Over the years how many people are still around who can > > operate, repair, or maintain 50's era computers? Power requirements would Can somebody please explain to me why it is so difficult to _learn_ these skills? I will admit I've enver worked on a 1950's computer (the oldest machine I've worked on dates from 1969 [1]), but I don't see why I'd find it impossible given a little bit of time to learn the tricks that were used then. [1] An HP9100B. I had to start out by writing the repair manual... > > also be a pain for the older models. > > This is clearly an issue we need to pass on these skills to a younger > generation. Here at ACONIT our goal is a conservatoire of computing > history, hopefully as such it will perpetuate the skills needed. The It's interesting that a small private computer history group that I belong to states its aims as 'preserving old computers, programs, methods and operating practices as far as possible'. Clearly they think (as do I) there's more that need to be preserved than just circuit boards :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 24 18:08:44 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <003401c3219e$6cb5a9a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> from "TeoZ" at May 23, 3 10:44:34 pm Message-ID: > Well some museum people function like archeologists, they want to leave the > machine in the state they found it in the wild. People like you want to > restore the machine to the same state it left the factory most likely. Very Not necessarily. We want to restore it to a working state. This could well be the state it was in when it was last used, with all the ECOs and user modifications left in place (assuming they're not preventing the machine from working, which might not be the case with some of the modifications I've seen made by previous owners!) A case in point. I know a museum which has a straight-8. They are missing 2 flip-chip cards from it. I happen to have a box full of boards pulled from a straight-8 (no, the chassis was not around when I got to grab the cards, and no I wasn't involved in pulling them). I offered said museum the 2 cards they needed, free of charge. They didn't want them because the date code stamped on the board was 2 years too late. A few points 1) I would have had no objections to these cards being marked as non-origianl replacement parts, or a log being kept of what parts had been fitted or replaced (I would have expected that) 2) Fitting these cards would have in no way damaged the rest of the machine -- they could have been pulled out again to return the machine to its current (non-working) state 3) The machine in question was not an original obtained from DEC and never used. It was a machine that had been used for many years before being donated to the museum. What's the betting that some flip-chip cards were replaced while the machine was in use? > Like I said before museums have static displays for reasons of power > requirements, lack of personnel that can run the machines, spare parts that So don't run them all all the time. Run selected machines on special 'operating days', like what's done with preserved beam engines, etc. > are expensive and hard to find, and the fact that a screwup during operation > could actually destroy one of the few remaining examples (or only one). Most I doubt it would destroy the machine in the sense that it could no longer be used as an exhibit, or indeed that it could no longer be restored again. In that sense, a machine that had been restored and then failed during the museum demonstration is no different to a machine that's never been restored. > devices in a museum are there for either art or function (or combination). > The older machines are not much to look at without being powered up and > running. I am 34 years old and I have seen a punch card reader, but never > seen one hooked up and running. I have never used an 8" floppy, or run the > earliest PC's that did computations via dip switch settings on the front One reason I started restoring computers was so I could do all these things (FWIW, I've run a paper tape punch and reader, a card reader, 8" floppies, etc. I've toggled in may programs on front panel swtiches. I've punched a card on a 12-button hand punch, I've edditied paper tape by hand. The equipment needed to do all those things is not particularly rare... > Firearms have evolved over 100's of years and the original versions still > have alot in common with current units. People of today can relate to how Are you seriously implying that the internals of a fairly modern computer and one made, perhaps, 30 years ago are significantly different? Because I find them to be very similar... > the original versions were used even without using one. Compare this to > computers that are only 60+ years old. Does a person who has a PC today have > any idea what the monster computer that took up a whole room in 1946 does > and how? There was no monitor, no keyboard, and no mouse they are totally TO me those are peripherals, not really the computer. > different today, how can people relate to this? While there are still a few > people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will be > nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things are Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older machines are so different. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 24 18:09:06 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 23, 3 11:14:52 pm Message-ID: > I think the right way to display a machine is to get it working while > simultaneously preserving its historical fabric. The Computer History Exactly. > Museum revived an IBM 1620 in a very intelligent way: they used whatever > modern parts were necessary to get it running again (in this case > semiconductor memory to replace the damaged core plane) but they made all > the modifications in a non-destructive, easily reversible fashion, i.e. no > permanent modifications to the original machine. More information on the I have a rule for my own collection of never making permanent modifications other than possibly mounting screw holes for replacement components. And never changing the design or architecutre (at least not significantly -- sometimes you have to use a differnet chip as a replacement, but make it emulate the part you're replacing). And, of course, document all replacements and changes. Yes, documentation can be lost or become separated from the machine, but it's better to at least start out with the modifications documented. > Is it better to try and fail to restore a machine than to just leave it > static fretting that it might be destroyed in the process? What is > destroyed? Killing a rare (or one-of-a-kind) chip? If you put the best > people on the job and something goes wrong then I think that's better than > never having tried a restoration to begin with. I mean, the thing isn't > going to explode or anything. Worst case a chip fries or a board burns > up. I have _never_ had a failure that's done visible damage to the machine (not even burnt traces on the circuit board). If a chip fails, it looks the same as the chip did before it failed -- it doesn't explode, or fly off the circuit board. So what's to be lost by repairing and running the machine? If some irreplaceable part does fail, you _still_ have the machine as a static exhibit. And by not running it, you don't make buckups of firmware, etc while it's still readable, and you don't record important signals while the machine is still operational, so you _do_ lose something. -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat May 24 18:18:01 2003 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Apple III w/ monitor for trade only In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030524231733.45178.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> Hello fellow computer fans and/or collectors, I have a nice Apple III (not Plus) which I'd like to trade for others goods. I can also throw in a nice Apple III monitor if the 'price' is right. Things I am seeking: KIM-1 Apple II (not plus,e,c,...) Exidy Sorcerer HP-85 Tomy Tutor Commodore 128D Commodore PET w/ chickletts Thanks! Steve. http://oldcomputers.net The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat May 24 18:42:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 May 2003, Mike Ross wrote: > IBM made a bunch of printer terminals based around the Selectric > typewriter - 1052, 2740, 2970 etc. Look in any old copy of BYTE, and > you'll also find several vendors were selling 3rd party terminals based > around IBM Selectrics, often converted for ASCII/RS-232c operation, as > teletype alternatives. > > Where have they all gone? (I appreciate, from what I've heard, that many > folks who used them in anger would reply 'I don't know, I don't care, > good riddance!') Early DECwriters are not uncommon. Teletypes are > (almost) ten a penny, ASR33s show up frequently enough on ebay, I have > several. Well, I have one sitting in storage. I'm not sure of the model though. > But the only Selectric based unit I've *seen* in over ten years of > collecting is a 2970 Reservation Termainal (see > http://www.corestore.org/2970-1.jpg ) which I was offered a year or so > ago. It needs a fair bit of TLC, and it's a print-only device; it can > receive data from a host and print it, but not send anything back from > the keyboard. Mine also needs some work. I believe it is some kind of modified terminal, and was used as a printer on a TRS80 Model 1. I also have the custom interface box that connects the two. > I'd love to get a bidirectional equivalent to use as an 'authentic' > terminal for a 360 emulator I work with... any clues? Can anyone > recommend a Selectric repair shop? No way I want to try to fettle > something THIS mechanically-intimidating myself! The original owner of my Selectric also gave me a service manual for the Selectric line, but I don't think it exactly covers the unit I have. Most likely, it covers most of the mech, but not the exact same configuration. The part number of the manual is S241-5615-3 and lists these models on the cover: IBM "Selectric" Typewriter (7XX) IBM "Selectric" II Typewriter (8XX) IBM Correcting "Selectric" II Typewriter (8XX) IBM 96 "Selectric" Typewriter (9XX) -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 24 18:53:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in References: Message-ID: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in Anything can be learned if you have the documentation of the machine in question, and a good idea of the technology used up to the time the machine was made. The problem I was trying to show is that the interface to the machines has changed quite a bit, and in 50 to 100 years will probably change quite a bit more. Put somebody that only knows a keyboard, mouse, and supervga screen in front of a IMSAI 8080 and they wont know what to do. > Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be > learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern > machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few > people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older > machines are so different. > > -tony From vance at neurotica.com Sat May 24 19:29:15 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Coleco In-Reply-To: <20030521221713.28073.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Try cleaning the cartridge contacts on the Coleco. If you open it up, is anything obviously burnt? Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 21 May 2003, Martine Allman wrote: > Hi, I saw a forum on line and your email was there. I was wondering if > you could solve my problem. > > When I turn on system, the screen says turn off game before inserting > cartridge. It does have the coleco logo so I know it has power and rf > is working. I did what it said and I also hit the reset button but I > get the same screen. I also cleaned the contacts on the cartridges. > Do you have any idea what is wrong? > > Thank you for your time, > > Snickers48180@yahoo.com > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From vance at neurotica.com Sat May 24 19:30:14 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Vaxen In-Reply-To: <2A52ADC3BA99934893FF58C1749DC8B8E393B3@PKDWB03C.ad.sprint.com> Message-ID: It depends on to whom you're talking. This is a largeish mailing list you're emailing. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 23 May 2003, Manzo, Anthony G wrote: > Hello, > > Are your VAX still available to a good home? I have a need for an 11/750 > and tape units. Thanks in advance for your reply. > > Sincerely, > > A.G. Manzo From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat May 24 19:55:50 2003 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have 8 warehouses stuffed with mainframes and minis. Around 120 of them in total. This belongs to the Norwegian Museum of Science and Technology, and with so many machines, there's BOUND to be a -10 there too :). On average, the museum recieves a query for pickup once a week. They also ran a mainframe on public display 15-20 years ago, but this was a Norwegian machine (NORD-1 i think, brilliant machine) and the people who knew about it didn't have the time it took to keep the mainframe going. This machine has been upgraded to run PDP-9 software, and has a switch on the front panel named "USE" with the options 7 and 9. It also had a homemade Automatic Priority Interrupt, nicknamed "Poor man's API". It has an oscilloscope display, two TU55 tape drives hooked up to a 550 tape controller, and the EAE (Extended Arithmetic Element). Picture at http://tore.nortia.no . Yes, we have a full set of schematics, except for one board (and with godly precision, this is the one we need), the Teletype Interface Card, seated inside the teletype. It is numbered 1818(twomoredigits). If I restore this -7, the Museum might let me inside one of their warehouses, and maybe restore a timesharing system, like, for instance, a -10. But, I'm going to keep focused on this task (for now ;) My dream has always been logging on a timesharing system with a VT terminal. IF the warehouse has a 15 in it, i'll ask them very nicely for a TC15. Who knows. We do have tons of -15 documentation (ask me not why) at the University, and even some -15 OS DECtapes. Thanks a bunch!! -Tore On Fri, 23 May 2003, Robert Garner wrote: > Tore, > > Congratulations on your commendable project! > I've sent your msg to some old DEC'ies would might be able to help. > > I have a Type 550 DECtape controller and documentation, > which was used in the PDP-1, 4, and 7. > > Also have many system module boards, in case you need spares. > (I still need to inventory them.) > > Do you have schematics for the 7? > (The Computer History Museum here may have a set.) > > - Robert > > p.s. I have a PDP-15/10E. Looking for a TC15 (DECtape controller). > > p.p.s. I heard there was a PDP-10 (KA-10) somewhere in Norway too. > Do you know anything about this? > > ______________________ |Tore Sinding Bekkedal| |toresbe@ifi.uio.no | |+47 91 85 95 08 \_________________________ |"Sure, so life's a bitch. But she's *my* bitch.| ------------------------------------------------/ From hansp at citem.org Sat May 24 19:56:32 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in australia (fwd) In-Reply-To: <003401c3219e$6cb5a9a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <008d01c320e4$512de360$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <3ECDDB91.2080703@citem.org> <003401c3219e$6cb5a9a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <3ECFA6F0.4050200@citem.org> TeoZ wrote: > Like I said before museums have static displays for reasons of power > requirements, lack of personnel that can run the machines, spare parts that > are expensive and hard to find, and the fact that a screwup during operation > could actually destroy one of the few remaining examples (or only one). But what is destroyed? Only the functionaliity, the physical machine can still be used as a static display > Most > devices in a museum are there for either art or function (or combination). > The older machines are not much to look at without being powered up and > running. I am 34 years old and I have seen a punch card reader, but never > seen one hooked up and running. I have never used an 8" floppy, or run the > earliest PC's that did computations via dip switch settings on the front > panel. the only mainframe I have ever used was in colege doing fortran > programming and that machine wasnt even in the same state. I have to admit > there is nothing like running a complex fortran program in .001 seconds > (would have taken an hour on the PC's we had at the time) to get an answer > and then waiting 20 minutes for the local monster printer to spit out the > answer and get it posted into my mailbox. You obviously need to visit Grenoble ;-) > Firearms have evolved over 100's of years and the original versions still > have alot in common with current units. People of today can relate to how > the original versions were used even without using one. Compare this to > computers that are only 60+ years old. Does a person who has a PC today have > any idea what the monster computer that took up a whole room in 1946 does > and how? There was no monitor, no keyboard, and no mouse they are totally > different today, how can people relate to this? Excellent point, this is what we need to communicate in one way or another. > While there are still a few > people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will be > nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things are > changing too fast. Static displays with a video of what they looked like > when running will be all thats left (if people are smart enough to record > the thing running before the last operator or machine is to old). Unless we make a determined effort and preserve the old trades. It is done in other industries, your exmaple of blacksmith is one. Computing has, as you state, eveolved out of all recognition. The simple static display put on by museums do not, and cannot, present that evolution in any real way. -- hbp From stuart at stuartsjohnsonfamily.net Sat May 24 19:56:55 2003 From: stuart at stuartsjohnsonfamily.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:51 2005 Subject: Openvms Alpha 3.0 kits now available Message-ID: <099701c3222f$e8301b60$0200a8c0@cosmo> For those looking for up-to-date VMS media for you Classic (or other) Alpha's, I just noticed that Montgar has the OpenVMS Alpha 3.0 kits available. Finally! For reference, the URL is: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html Stuart Johnson From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Sat May 24 19:58:01 2003 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? References: <20030524170001.75162.98247.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000b01c32256$efe6fb90$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> I got rid of mine at a garage sale in about 10 years ago. (Before I started restoring my junk.) I had a Trendata1000, which was similar to the IBM 2741. It had a real IBM Selectric Terminal with Trendata's custom electronics. Many members of The Northwest Computer Society (Seattle) bought refurbished Trendata1000s from a local Computer Land store for about $900. Here is a photo of my Selectric Terminal and my SWTPC system in 1978. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MySystem/MySystemPhoto.htm I still have the IBM reference manual for the 2741 Communitations Terminal. It is 20 pages on how to write a driver for the 2741. I also have the documentation on how to connect it to a SWTPC 6800 with no special hardware. I normally used it for a printer but it also worked as a terminal. Here is a description of my computer that I wrote in 1978. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MySystem/MySystem.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From jforbes2 at mindspring.com Sat May 24 20:32:00 2003 From: jforbes2 at mindspring.com (J Forbes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? Message-ID: <3ED01D4D.1060109@mindspring.com> > From: "Mike Ross" > IBM made a bunch of printer terminals based around the Selectric typewriter > - 1052, 2740, 2970 etc. Look in any old copy of BYTE, and you'll also find > several vendors were selling 3rd party terminals based around IBM > Selectrics, often converted for ASCII/RS-232c operation, as teletype > alternatives. > > Where have they all gone? (I appreciate, from what I've heard, that many > folks who used them in anger would reply 'I don't know, I don't care, good > riddance!') Early DECwriters are not uncommon. Teletypes are (almost) ten a > penny, ASR33s show up frequently enough on ebay, I have several. > > But the only Selectric based unit I've *seen* in over ten years of > collecting is a 2970 Reservation Termainal (see > http://www.corestore.org/2970-1.jpg ) which I was offered a year or so ago. > It needs a fair bit of TLC, and it's a print-only device; it can receive > data from a host and print it, but not send anything back from the keyboard. > > I'd love to get a bidirectional equivalent to use as an 'authentic' terminal > for a 360 emulator I work with... any clues? Can anyone recommend a > Selectric repair shop? No way I want to try to fettle something THIS > mechanically-intimidating myself! Look at my sig...you'll see where they've all gone :) I have a dozen or so Selectric, Selectric II, and Selectric III typewriters, mostly in various states of sticky disrepair. Actually, I don't have any Selectric terminals, although I do have a Selectric Memory Typewriter. My brother worked at a Byte Shop in the late 70s, and recalls having either converted a Selectric or making a conversion work. I do have a manual from 1962 titled "IBM Customer Engineering Manual of Instruction, I/O Printer, (Modified IBM Selectric), which shows the glorious workings of this fascinating machine...the manual has lots of text and diagrams explaining the Selectric mechanism, but not much in the way of photos showing the solenoid mechanisms. We were thinking a few years ago of trying to rig up a homebrew conversion of one of my typewriters, but never got round to it. But I did (in 1999?) see a conversion kit sell on ebay...and I was foolish enough to not buy it. -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat May 24 21:03:01 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Default E-Mail Address Change Message-ID: <3ED0243B.3840D759@compsys.to> I am now using this e-mail address for all incoming e-mail. If convenient, please change the e-mail address that you use when you send me private e-mail. Note that all of the recent e-mail address will still be active for about a month, so if you don't do the change immediately, it will not be a problem. PLUS, this is a test that everything is working properly. The volume of spam finally became too large! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 24 22:19:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > Anything can be learned if you have the documentation of the machine in > question, and a good idea of the technology used up to the time the machine > was made. The problem I was trying to show is that the interface to the > machines has changed quite a bit, and in 50 to 100 years will probably > change quite a bit more. Put somebody that only knows a keyboard, mouse, and > supervga screen in front of a IMSAI 8080 and they wont know what to do. But Tony's point is--and I agree--that it can be learned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 24 22:22:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Openvms Alpha 3.0 kits now available In-Reply-To: <099701c3222f$e8301b60$0200a8c0@cosmo> References: <099701c3222f$e8301b60$0200a8c0@cosmo> Message-ID: >For those looking for up-to-date VMS media for you Classic (or other) Alpha's, >I just noticed that Montgar has the OpenVMS Alpha 3.0 kits available. >Finally! > >For reference, the URL is: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html > >Stuart Johnson Thanks for the reminder, I'd seen this last night on comp.os.vms and had forgotten about it. If anyone is running OpenVMS installed from the 2.0 Hobbyist Kit, and using TCPIP, you really want to get the 3.0 kit. Though it won't be till the next release of TCPIP later this year that it finally gets ssh support. Still, V5.1 added 'xdm' support and anti-spam features that make it well worth while. I'm honestly not sure what V5.3 adds, as I'm still running 5.1. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dancohoe at oxford.net Sat May 24 23:48:00 2003 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: <3ED01D4D.1060109@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <008001c32278$7a8a4dd0$6401a8c0@DCOHOE> Are these based on a Selectric? http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=206563&convertTo=USD This is the second time around for them in the sale. regards, Dan Cohoe > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of J Forbes > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 9:33 PM > To: Cassic Computing > Subject: Re: Where have all the Selectrics gone? > > > > From: "Mike Ross" > > > IBM made a bunch of printer terminals based around the > Selectric typewriter > > - 1052, 2740, 2970 etc. Look in any old copy of BYTE, and ............... From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun May 25 00:41:01 2003 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? References: <3ED01D4D.1060109@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <04f501c32280$269ede90$0100a8c0@athlon> And what about the Termiprinters-none of them left now either I guess- think I saw a couple of the answerback pcb's out in the garage recently-the ones with a strappable diode matrix assy to program up the answerback code. Had 20 or so of the basic 300 baud variants pass thru my hands about 15 years back but no idea where any of them are now. There was even a 'fast' version (badged HP) that could print about twice as fast as the standard ones. Might be some documentation still around here but may take some finding. Any of them still out there 'in service'? Dave Brown Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Forbes" To: "Cassic Computing" Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Where have all the Selectrics gone? > > From: "Mike Ross" > > > IBM made a bunch of printer terminals based around the Selectric typewriter > > - 1052, 2740, 2970 etc. Look in any old copy of BYTE, and you'll also find > > several vendors were selling 3rd party terminals based around IBM > > Selectrics, often converted for ASCII/RS-232c operation, as teletype > > alternatives. > > > > Where have they all gone? (I appreciate, from what I've heard, that many > > folks who used them in anger would reply 'I don't know, I don't care, good > > riddance!') Early DECwriters are not uncommon. Teletypes are (almost) ten a > > penny, ASR33s show up frequently enough on ebay, I have several. > > > > But the only Selectric based unit I've *seen* in over ten years of > > collecting is a 2970 Reservation Termainal (see > > http://www.corestore.org/2970-1.jpg ) which I was offered a year or so ago. > > It needs a fair bit of TLC, and it's a print-only device; it can receive > > data from a host and print it, but not send anything back from the keyboard. > > > > I'd love to get a bidirectional equivalent to use as an 'authentic' terminal > > for a 360 emulator I work with... any clues? Can anyone recommend a > > Selectric repair shop? No way I want to try to fettle something THIS > > mechanically-intimidating myself! > > Look at my sig...you'll see where they've all gone :) I have a > dozen or so Selectric, Selectric II, and Selectric III typewriters, > mostly in various states of sticky disrepair. > > Actually, I don't have any Selectric terminals, although I do have a > Selectric Memory Typewriter. My brother worked at a Byte Shop in the > late 70s, and recalls having either converted a Selectric or making a > conversion work. > > I do have a manual from 1962 titled "IBM Customer Engineering Manual of > Instruction, I/O Printer, (Modified IBM Selectric), which shows the > glorious workings of this fascinating machine...the manual has lots of > text and diagrams explaining the Selectric mechanism, but not much in > the way of photos showing the solenoid mechanisms. > > We were thinking a few years ago of trying to rig up a homebrew > conversion of one of my typewriters, but never got round to it. But I > did (in 1999?) see a conversion kit sell on ebay...and I was foolish > enough to not buy it. > -- > Jim > > Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! > http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 25 03:55:01 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532f0df84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Over the years how many people are still around who can > > > operate, repair, or maintain 50's era computers? Power requirements would > > Can somebody please explain to me why it is so difficult to _learn_ these > skills? I will admit I've enver worked on a 1950's computer (the oldest > machine I've worked on dates from 1969 [1]), but I don't see why I'd find > it impossible given a little bit of time to learn the tricks that were > used then. I can't see why either - if they used valves (vacuum tubes), the tubes should still be available NOS or used, same for the valve bases. If the bases had been smashed, a schematic would be damn useful. If it's transistor based, I'd just trace the circuit... > [1] An HP9100B. I had to start out by writing the repair manual... The oldest machine I've worked on... Hmm... That's a tough one... I guess that would be the Jupiter Cantab "Ace" computer I'm restoring^W rebuiling. [mental note: cover the unused connectors on the PSU with electrical tape BEFORE powering up]. The one thing that never ceases to amaze me about the Ace is just how lousy the tin plating on the board really is. I've touched my soldering iron to various tracks on the board and the tin plating has come right off! Either the flux in my roll of Multicore 60-40 solder is doing this or the tin plating wasn't put on right. The board underneath the plating has oxidised quite a bit... Continuity is still OK after a good cleaning, but it's still a pig to find out that a bit of solder has separated from the board simply because the tin plating is fubar'd. > It's interesting that a small private computer history group that I > belong to states its aims as 'preserving old computers, programs, methods > and operating practices as far as possible'. Clearly they think (as do I) > there's more that need to be preserved than just circuit boards :-) Yup. I'm planning to make a backup copy of my Jupiter Ace tape and then use the backup. One digital copy on the PC (44100Hz mono), one analog (tape) copy. Then the fun of decoding the tape image and rebuilding the digital data begins... Now, if only I could get the Ace working... Is anyone here placing an order with BGMicro in the near future? I need some more RAMs to keep as spares for the Ace and my Cosmac Elf (DIY'd too - there's a picture of it on www.cosmacelf.com). That is, unless someone knows of a company in the UK that can supply 2114s and 2101s... A CDP1861 (RCA Pixie graphics controller) would also be quite useful... Then again, I've heard the 1861 has a pretty good reliability record - supposedly much better than a 2114 RAM... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 25 04:25:01 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1cb30ff84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be > learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern > machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few > people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older > machines are so different. That's more or less my opinion exactly. As long as I had at least a manual for the CPU, I could probably sit down in front of a computer and program it. I'd probably curse the designers or the CPU a few times, but I could probably do it. I know basic x86 assembler (yuck), some CDP1802 assembler, 6502 assembler, C, PASCAL and (rusty) BASIC. I could sit down in front of nearly any 1980s home computer and program it. I say "nearly any" because I don't know FORTH, but I do intend to learn it when the Ace is up and running again. So the ICs are datestamped 2002. They're the same chips that were available in 1984, the electrical characteristics have improved slightly, but the chip itself hasn't changed that much. Wirewrap wire was available in 1984, so were turned-pin IC sockets. Sure, mine are dated 2002, but without them it would be a real pig to fix the machine if any of the ICs were to fail again. So my Ace doesn't have the original ICs. It's not as if it matters. If I see some 1984-dated 74LS chips somewhere, I'll probably buy them just for the heck of it. To me, priority number one is getting the machine running and keeping its exterior casing in good condition. Priority two is historical accuracy - IC datecodes and suchlike. I'm surprised the Ace's electrolytic capacitors are still OK! Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 25 04:25:31 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <3be70ff84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> "TeoZ" wrote: > change quite a bit more. Put somebody that only knows a keyboard, mouse, and > supervga screen in front of a IMSAI 8080 and they wont know what to do. Point taken. An average Joe Bloggs probably won't know what to do with the IMSAI, but most programmers could skim through the manual and program the thing in about an hour. It took me twelve minutes to get my Cosmac Elf to accept a program and most of that was fixing a few dry joints and bad toggle switches. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun May 25 04:41:00 2003 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Operating old Mainframes was RE: Collection policy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c32284$3a59d8a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > > different today, how can people relate to this? While there are > still a few > > people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will be > > nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things are > > Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be > learnt? ... -tony Well, understanding these computers in an architecture sense is one thing* - but operating and maintenance skills were usually verbally transmitted and rarely permanently documented. They can probably be redeveloped with experience but this experience is likely to be at the cost of media damage. When I was a systems programmer on an ICT1905 (then a 1905E etc) I learned some of the skills of the operators and even occasionally helped the engineers (usually to diagnose processor problems with "odd" symptoms) Things like: the skills of handling trays of punched cards so that the readers didn't jam - and the practice of clearing the jams that did happen. (a 1600 cpm reader can fling cards all over the place when it feels like it! - the 600 cpm reader was referred-to as "the mangler" by anyone who used it ... and with good reason) loading magnetic tape drives - the upright ones with vacuum columns (yeah, it's trivial ... not!) handling "washing-machine" exchangeable disk packs ensuring fanfold paper stacks correctly from a fast line-printer having the reactions to hit the stop button on that printer when it starts page-throwing at maximum speed. recognising the progress of jobs from the sound of the console loudspeaker knowing which boards to tap (and how hard) when doing "preventative maintenance" listening to that loudspeaker while running the diagnostics programs (and those programs were probably the very first things to get thrown out when the computer was replaced) switching things on (and off) in the correct order (and how to start the MG set) even the bootstrap sequence wasn't as simple as on a PDP-11 > I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern > machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few > people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older > machines are so different. I would put this the other way round - people who had a good understanding of the old machines have some chance of getting a deep understanding of modern ones. In terms of the Instruction Set Architecture and programming there are few difficulties in understanding one given the other (but for 'minor' things like self-modifying code and the concept of overlays). On the other hand, the lower level descriptions of the processor logic typically use terminology that is totally foreign to the modern logic designer - not to mention the implicit "wired-or" that is frequently used and not explicitly mentioned in the documentation or that with only a small number of logic gates per card techniques were used to minimise the number of gates that would never be seen on modern synchronous logic. Andy From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 25 04:58:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Fri, May 23, 2003 at 16:08:32 %z References: Message-ID: <20030525091625.GA1434@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.23 16:08 Tony Duell wrote: > Do you have a cable with a white (nylon?) edge connector to fit onto > the front edge of this PCB? If not, you need to make one. Hmmm. I think there was a smal cable in the bag with the screws. > Actually, these bricks are relatively friendly in that there are no > lethal voltages in them [...] Yes, but I have no clue about SMPSUs and there theory of operation. All I know is that they switch the primary power on and off to pump some energy to the secondary side. I have some local friends who know how this things work, so I am in the hope to get some help. > although it is enough to make small signal > transistors explode (that's from experience!). That reminds me of an LED that lost its "head"... ;-) > I bought an RK07 that was full of water (seriously, it poured > out of the hollow baseplate...). After drying it out, cleaning > the heads, connectors, etc, it worked fine... When I unmounted the fan, I took it over to the waste basket, turned it around and a "waterfall" of rust came out of it. I sand-blasted it meanwhile. The air filter is unusable and full of dirt. But the heads and voice coil look good so I am in good hope. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 25 05:34:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Sony model OA-D34V-22 floppy drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030525031304.034ac1c0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 09:41 AM 5/22/03 -0400, chris wrote: > >ie I found a couple of new in the bag Sony model > >OA-D34V-22 floppy drives. Anybody know what these go in, I am thinking just > >the 128k, but one of the web hits says Lisa 2. > >If you are interested in unloading one of those Sony drives, I'd be happy >to take one. I have an original external 400K drive for the Mac, and its >drive it dead. IIRC, it is the same drive as used in the 128, so if you >wanted to unload a spare, I'd love to get my external drive working again. > >-chris > Having eyeballed both, but now from memory, I don't think so, these are just too large. Since I have a couple 128k myself, most likely I won't have extra units, unless I find more in my boxes. From tim.challenor at tcns.co.uk Sun May 25 06:19:00 2003 From: tim.challenor at tcns.co.uk (Tim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Operating old Mainframes was RE: Collection policy In-Reply-To: <000f01c32284$3a59d8a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <9EFADA72-8EA2-11D7-9CBC-000393DA5226@tcns.co.uk> I'd have to agree with Andy - up to a point. My aunt was senior programmer at Harrow borough council for years. I'm 46 now, but when I was 11, I remember my aunt discussing with my grandfather, the decommissioning of the computer that the had become so familiar with. From memory it was an English Electric Co. "LEO" (Lyons Electronic Office) machine, I think mostly built from vacuum tubes/valves, and dependent on card punches and readers for much of it's input. I remember seeing guys in white coats tending the machine in its less effective moments, and the general air of respect and authority they commanded from the programmers and operators. About 10 years later, I got my first job in the industry as a field engineer for Data General. I remember I spent some time explaining to my aunt how I'd written a simple disk subsystem diagnostic which I'd keyed in through a 'virtual console' in hex. I then had to explain to her what a virtual console was, followed by an explanation of why parts of the machines she knew so well had to be re-wired as part of the programming process. The aim of a business is to make money - and most would agree that homo-sapiens is essentially a lazy creature (at least, I am)! In terms of hardware and software design and production, this means more and more layers of abstraction between the basic computational structures and the functions that users desire. Doesn't it seem like a natural progression then, that not only do fewer and fewer people understand less and less about machine and system architecture, but given sufficient time, the nature of the IO devices and operations has/is becoming so different from the earliest systems, that it is becoming a non-trivial task to understand even their function, let alone their correct modus operandi (e.g. how many hardware engineers today would recognise, let alone understand the detail in the design of a mercury delay line)? It seems to me that there is nothing at all wrong with this, its just that times/fashions change, and so do our reasons for doing things. On the other hand, the reasons given by the perpetrators of software bloat and the apparently unconnected increasing hardware complexity that always seems to accompany it (I'd often prefer the term sophistry) are highly suspect....... Tim On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 07:09 AM, Andy Holt wrote: >>> different today, how can people relate to this? While there are >> still a few >>> people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will >>> be >>> nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things >>> are >> >> Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't >> be >> learnt? ... >> -tony > > Well, understanding these computers in an architecture sense is one > thing* - > but operating and maintenance skills were usually verbally transmitted > and > rarely permanently documented. They can probably be redeveloped with > experience but this experience is likely to be at the cost of media > damage. > When I was a systems programmer on an ICT1905 (then a 1905E etc) I > learned > some of the skills of the operators and even occasionally helped the > engineers (usually to diagnose processor problems with "odd" symptoms) > > Things like: > the skills of handling trays of punched cards so that the readers > didn't > jam - and the practice of clearing the jams that did happen. (a 1600 > cpm > reader can fling cards all over the place when it feels like it! - the > 600 > cpm reader was referred-to as "the mangler" by anyone who used it ... > and > with good reason) > loading magnetic tape drives - the upright ones with vacuum columns > (yeah, > it's trivial ... not!) > handling "washing-machine" exchangeable disk packs > ensuring fanfold paper stacks correctly from a fast line-printer > having the reactions to hit the stop button on that printer when it > starts > page-throwing at maximum speed. > recognising the progress of jobs from the sound of the console > loudspeaker > > knowing which boards to tap (and how hard) when doing "preventative > maintenance" listening to that loudspeaker while running the > diagnostics > programs (and those programs were probably the very first things to get > thrown out when the computer was replaced) > switching things on (and off) in the correct order (and how to start > the MG > set) > even the bootstrap sequence wasn't as simple as on a PDP-11 > > >> I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern >> machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few >> people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older >> machines are so different. > > I would put this the other way round - people who had a good > understanding > of the old machines have some chance of getting a deep understanding of > modern ones. In terms of the Instruction Set Architecture and > programming > there are few difficulties in understanding one given the other (but > for > 'minor' things like self-modifying code and the concept of overlays). > On the > other hand, the lower level descriptions of the processor logic > typically > use terminology that is totally foreign to the modern logic designer - > not > to mention the implicit "wired-or" that is frequently used and not > explicitly mentioned in the documentation or that with only a small > number > of logic gates per card techniques were used to minimise the number of > gates > that would never be seen on modern synchronous logic. > > Andy From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun May 25 07:42:00 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: ICL 2950 Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030525132046.081bde18@mail.mosthosts.com> Hmm... Having seen this on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2731022229&category=1247 the nameplate from an ICL 2950, weighing over 2Kg alone, and had my curiosity nudged, I was wondering if anybody knew of any pictures of the beast itself? A quick google found me a bit of info, but no pics yet. Hmm.. I've got a nameplate stuck to a 5.25" disc box in the cupboard from a Ferranti "EWTS" system (Early Warning [Tracking|Training] System, I forget which, and google doesn't help at all) ... Picked it up while I was an apprentice there - now that was fun, wandering round the factory, about 1982/3 - I seem to recall computer generated ships and stuff on one system. Amazing graphics for the time. It's a shame how little of the old stuff still exists.. I also used to "play" on a Data General Nova, must have been about 1980, at the college my Dad taught at; I sometimes wonder whatever happened to that.. Rob. From allain at panix.com Sun May 25 09:41:01 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? References: <008001c32278$7a8a4dd0$6401a8c0@DCOHOE> Message-ID: <003401c322cb$5f63fe40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=206563&convertTo=USD A million for just 33? That's $33 thousand each. Sounds like Gvt. Fin. mumbo-jumbo to me. Those machines couldn'tve cost $10K retail. - - - As aside. The business machine repair (read: typewriters) shop 10 miles from my house just closed. Wouldn't be surprised if it's the last in the county. The New York times published a report on a similar, prominent closing in NYC a couple of years ago. If there's one near you don't expect it to last long. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 25 10:07:01 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Operating old Mainframes was RE: Collection policy References: <9EFADA72-8EA2-11D7-9CBC-000393DA5226@tcns.co.uk> Message-ID: <3ED0DB24.2010805@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim wrote: > The aim of a business is to make money - and most would agree that > homo-sapiens is essentially a lazy creature (at least, I am)! In terms > of hardware and software design and production, this means more and more > layers of abstraction between the basic computational structures and the > functions that users desire. Doesn't it seem like a natural progression > then, that not only do fewer and fewer people understand less and less > about machine and system architecture, but given sufficient time, the > nature of the IO devices and operations has/is becoming so different > from the earliest systems, that it is becoming a non-trivial task to > understand even their function, let alone their correct modus operandi > (e.g. how many hardware engineers today would recognise, let alone > understand the detail in the design of a mercury delay line)? > Forget that delay line ... I want a comparsion chart of the latest DVD players. A schematic too EVEN! Right now I am looking for a mid-priced player with good audio out , not some 39 cent part for audio. This is true of computers, I want to know just what I buying! Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 25 10:23:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Operating old Mainframes was RE: Collection policy References: <9EFADA72-8EA2-11D7-9CBC-000393DA5226@tcns.co.uk> <3ED0DB24.2010805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000c01c322d0$4c014740$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Thats another point, miniturization and design optimization. Today there are chips that do what a whole box of chips did before. Older machines had a seperate circuit for each function, and were easier to follow what was going on. Newer equipment just has a data in and final product out and nobody knows how it does anything inside because it is proprietary and you dont get schematics. Also techs coming out of school today troublshoot a product to a circuit board and swap that out (usually there is only 1 board in the whole device), unlike in years past where they had the knowledge to find and repair any problem using the schematics that were easy to obtain. Everything in computing today (except maybe some embedded designs) are built using tools that use preprogrammed routines that are many layers away from the actual hardware. I know quite a few programmers today who have no clue how their hardware operates, I know nobody that started programming on the C64 that didnt have a good understanding of the hardware they used. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Operating old Mainframes was RE: Collection policy > Tim wrote: > > > The aim of a business is to make money - and most would agree that > > homo-sapiens is essentially a lazy creature (at least, I am)! In terms > > of hardware and software design and production, this means more and more > > layers of abstraction between the basic computational structures and the > > functions that users desire. Doesn't it seem like a natural progression > > then, that not only do fewer and fewer people understand less and less > > about machine and system architecture, but given sufficient time, the > > nature of the IO devices and operations has/is becoming so different > > from the earliest systems, that it is becoming a non-trivial task to > > understand even their function, let alone their correct modus operandi > > (e.g. how many hardware engineers today would recognise, let alone > > understand the detail in the design of a mercury delay line)? > > > Forget that delay line ... I want a comparsion chart of the latest > DVD players. A schematic too EVEN! Right now I am looking for a > mid-priced player with good audio out , not some 39 cent part for audio. > This is true of computers, I want to know just what I buying! > Ben. From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 25 10:26:00 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies Message-ID: here: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=202239&convertTo=USD Check out the wierd (micro? terminal?) with the monitor in an adjustable gimbal cradle, almost like the old Philco Predicta TVS that the retro freaks all think is the Icon of 50s Tech... Also an HP something sitting on a desk with a paper tape reader in it.. 34 photographs, be sure to check them all out... and I ain't done lookin', yet... Cheers John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 25 11:16:01 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies References: Message-ID: <001301c322d8$d78c43c0$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Stuff I recognize or at least have some reasonable guesses on: #2 HP disc cartridges, could be 7900A type but likely 7905/6 type #3 An HP 7905/06 drive (likely 7906) in a cute lowboy pedestal cabinet #11 Looks like a Lier Siegler ADM 3A type terminal #17 The terminal LOOKS kinda Data General-ish to me, that's just a wild guess #25 An HP26xx type terminal in an unusual console desk with 2748B paper tape reader #29 IBM 3270/3279 type terminal > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=202239&convertTo=USD > > Check out the wierd (micro? terminal?) with the monitor in an adjustable > gimbal cradle, almost like the old Philco Predicta TVS that the retro > freaks all think is the Icon of 50s Tech... From pcw at mesanet.com Sun May 25 11:22:01 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, John Lawson wrote: > here: > > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=202239&convertTo=USD > > Check out the wierd (micro? terminal?) with the monitor in an adjustable > gimbal cradle, almost like the old Philco Predicta TVS that the retro > freaks all think is the Icon of 50s Tech... Data general dasher? This is interesting also: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=187037&convertTo=USD VAX/11/751? > > > Also an HP something sitting on a desk with a paper tape reader in it.. > > 34 photographs, be sure to check them all out... > > > > and I ain't done lookin', yet... > > > Cheers > > John > Peter Wallace From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 11:33:00 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <3EC3AFE9.30071.1EFBB2C5@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3ED0FE25.16040.113B3E61@localhost> The 11/34a I collected recently (BA11-L chasis, H777 PSU) and had difficulty getting to power up is in better shape now that it's had a good clean ; backplane inspected and all the dust & debris removed from its slots (via "fart in a can", ie compressed air :), the cards have had their edge connectors cleaned (india rubber) to be nice and shiny. Switching to DC ON, the fans whirr happily and the front panel now has "DC ON" and "RUN" LEDs on, with 000000 on the 7seg LEDs. If I try to halt (keypad CNTRL + HLT/SS), the RUN LED stays on and BUS ERR LED also comes on. I can enter an address via LAD, and DISADD shows it again, so the keyboard seems functional, but I can't change any memory with DEP or EXAM as the thing is "RUN"ning... No $ display on the console terminal yet either. Do I need to have the RX02 and RL01 drives connected & powered up for the CPU box to do anything? I shall try to get some grant cards to replace the RL11, RX211 and whatever the (non DEC) DR11 card is and see if I can at least get the console emulator to pop up on the terminal. Off to read the 11/34 Users Manual next (many thanks to Al Kossow for his site hosting this and so many other usefull docs) ta, greg Card configuration is : 1 AF M8266 KD11EA-control 2 AF M8265 KD11EA data path 3 AF M7840 KE11-B blackened/hot bits of PCB round resistor DIPs? 4 AB M9132 (soldered wires to FPanel) CF M7859 KY11-LB J1 to (FPanel) 5 AF M7891 128K*18 MOS mem 6 AF "Dr11 PHI733-1" card, unknown 7 AF M7762 RL11 controller 8 CF M7856 SLU/RTC option 9 AB M9032 terminator CF M8256 RX211 interface From vaxzilla at jarai.org Sun May 25 11:38:01 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: <003401c322cb$5f63fe40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <008001c32278$7a8a4dd0$6401a8c0@DCOHOE> <003401c322cb$5f63fe40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=206563&convertTo=USD > > A million for just 33? That's $33 thousand each. Sounds like Gvt. Fin. > mumbo-jumbo to me. Those machines couldn'tve cost $10K retail. > - - - > > As aside. The business machine repair (read: typewriters) shop 10 > miles from my house just closed. Wouldn't be surprised if it's the > last in the county. The New York times published a report on a > similar, prominent closing in NYC a couple of years ago. If there's > one near you don't expect it to last long. Checking in my local phone books, there look to be about a dozen or so places still in business around the west side of Los Angeles. There is url for one place: Given the long history and the number of lawyers out here, I'm guessing there will still be a need for typewriter repair shops for a number of years. -brian. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 25 13:32:00 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c322eb$e14e7460$5b01a8c0@athlon> >VAX/11/751? Rackmount VAX-11/750. Doesn't get mentioned very much. -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 25 14:52:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: "Greg Elkin" "Re: PDP 11/34 rebuild" (May 25, 17:32) References: <3ED0FE25.16040.113B3E61@localhost> Message-ID: <10305252050.ZM4338@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 17:32, Greg Elkin wrote: > The 11/34a I collected recently (BA11-L chasis, H777 PSU) and had > difficulty getting to power up is in better shape now that it's had a > good clean ; backplane inspected and all the dust & debris removed > from its slots (via "fart in a can", ie compressed air :), the cards > have had their edge connectors cleaned (india rubber) to be nice and > shiny. > > Switching to DC ON, the fans whirr happily and the front panel now > has "DC ON" and "RUN" LEDs on, with 000000 on the 7seg LEDs. > > If I try to halt (keypad CNTRL + HLT/SS), the RUN LED stays on and > BUS ERR LED also comes on. FAQ. This is the result of having a 9302 terminator, whichg asserts SACK, and a missing NPR jumper somewhere. Either you have a card missing, or you've put a card that doesn't pass NPR into a slot where previously there was a card that did (or you've put a small grant card where you should have a full-size one). Ethan mentioned this in response to one of your posts recently, and Tony (on more than one occasion) explained in detail why this has the effect it does. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-May/022031.html http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-May/022051.html Don't feel *too* bad about it, I got caught myself with that, once. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From djenner at earthlink.net Sun May 25 14:57:00 2003 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Software for NCD 17c Xterminal Message-ID: <3ED11FC0.6A2E53AF@earthlink.net> I got a nice NCD 17c X terminal a while back, but I don't have the server software to download to it. Does anyone have such software or a pointer to where to get it? Thanks, Dave -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From stevenaleach at mac.com Sun May 25 15:41:00 2003 From: stevenaleach at mac.com (Steve Leach) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! Message-ID: <08662796-8EF1-11D7-B74B-000393AF4F78@mac.com> I just retrieved an Altair 8800B from long term storage. I blew away the dust, checked for loose connections, and finally powered it up. Lights flickered to life, and then smoke poured from the front panel. I pulled it apart, and found a very crispy capacitor number C4 on the front panel card. My first problem is that this capacitor is so crispy that I have no way of determining the proper value. It is (was) connected to a voltage regulator marked "F 79MO8 AUC 7535" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:09:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <3ECFA6F0.4050200@citem.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 24, 3 07:08:00 pm Message-ID: > TeoZ wrote: > > > Like I said before museums have static displays for reasons of power > > requirements, lack of personnel that can run the machines, spare parts that > > are expensive and hard to find, and the fact that a screwup during operation > > could actually destroy one of the few remaining examples (or only one). > > But what is destroyed? Only the functionaliity, the physical machine can > still be used as a static display Agreed. It's almost unheard-of for a machine to catch fire, or for components to physically explode while just in use... However, I would add that the _first_ time a machine is powered up after not being run for some time, you need to take things slowly and carefully. As in checking the PSUs on dummy load (this has saved me many hours of hunting for difficult-to-find chips!), checking for shorts between power rails, and so on. NEVER just apply power to an unknown machine unless you have much better luck than me :-) Also, as has been mentioned here in the past, make (and keep) backups of all ROMs, PALs, etc. It is entirely possible that components will fail when the machine is in use, and it's a good idea to make it as easy to replace them as possible (it's easier to burn an image into an EPROM than to first have to hunt for somebody with the same model of machine :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:09:43 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> from "TeoZ" at May 24, 3 07:44:58 pm Message-ID: > Anything can be learned if you have the documentation of the machine in > question, and a good idea of the technology used up to the time the machine > was made. The problem I was trying to show is that the interface to the THis is surely a good argument for keeping all such documentation. Not just the user and service manuals for the machine in question, but also general books on electronics from that time period, component data books, even component catalogues. I doubt any here will disagree with doing that! (even if some museums don't see the point...) > machines has changed quite a bit, and in 50 to 100 years will probably > change quite a bit more. Put somebody that only knows a keyboard, mouse, and > supervga screen in front of a IMSAI 8080 and they wont know what to do. And a static display will _not_ demonstrate the user interface. It's one thing to just see a panel with a row of switches on it -- you don't learn much from that. It's quite another to see the panel in use, with the lights blinking, and being able to look at memory locations, start programs running, examine registers, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:10:06 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: <04f501c32280$269ede90$0100a8c0@athlon> from "Dave Brown" at May 25, 3 05:40:28 pm Message-ID: > And what about the Termiprinters-none of them left now either I guess- think Are those the ones with the bammer bank and print belt, a bit like a mini line printer? Not a true line printer, though -- a maximum of 4 hammers can fire at a time since the PSU couldn't handle any more. If so, I have a pair of them, along with the field service manual. No complete schematics :-(. Mine started off as a 74 column KSR and a 118 column RO, but I moved the wider hammer bank into the KSR machine and made the appropriate changes to the jumpering on the PCBs.THe only problem was the print position indicator (a numeric display indicating where the virtual printhead is) -- RO models didn't have it, and the one in my KSR was only 2 digits (obviously). I added an extra red LED to indicate the hundreds (no way could I get the original filament displays). A kludge, but it worked... > I saw a couple of the answerback pcb's out in the garage recently-the ones > with a strappable diode matrix assy to program up the answerback code. Had I never had the answerback option. > 20 or so of the basic 300 baud variants pass thru my hands about 15 years > back but no idea where any of them are now. There was even a 'fast' version > (badged HP) that could print about twice as fast as the standard ones. Might Mine are ICL-badged, and at least one has the 600 baud position. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:10:28 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Operating old Mainframes was RE: Collection policy In-Reply-To: <000f01c32284$3a59d8a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at May 25, 3 07:09:40 am Message-ID: > Well, understanding these computers in an architecture sense is one thing* - > but operating and maintenance skills were usually verbally transmitted and > rarely permanently documented. They can probably be redeveloped with True, and even if they were documented, that's often not enough. You need to have a 'feel' for the machine, or more exactly, you need to have done it before. > experience but this experience is likely to be at the cost of media damage. One reason to always start with unimportant media... Yes, I know that blank media for some drives -- particularly demountable hard disks -- is difficult to find and expensive. But unless people do continue learning how to run and maintain such drives, then knowledge and skills will be lost for ever. To me, ensuring there's still one person in the world who has aligned an RK05 from scratch was worth risking a disk pack for... > > I would put this the other way round - people who had a good understanding > of the old machines have some chance of getting a deep understanding of > modern ones. In terms of the Instruction Set Architecture and programming It makes no difference which way round you say it. If you _truely_ understand a modern machine, then you'll find the older ones pretty easy to understand. Conversely, understanding an older machine will help you understand modern ones. > there are few difficulties in understanding one given the other (but for > 'minor' things like self-modifying code and the concept of overlays). On the > other hand, the lower level descriptions of the processor logic typically > use terminology that is totally foreign to the modern logic designer - not > to mention the implicit "wired-or" that is frequently used and not > explicitly mentioned in the documentation or that with only a small number > of logic gates per card techniques were used to minimise the number of gates > that would never be seen on modern synchronous logic. The less said about so-called designers who have problems with any of that, the better! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:10:51 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <532f0df84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 25, 3 09:53:28 am Message-ID: > > Can somebody please explain to me why it is so difficult to _learn_ these > > skills? I will admit I've enver worked on a 1950's computer (the oldest > > machine I've worked on dates from 1969 [1]), but I don't see why I'd find > > it impossible given a little bit of time to learn the tricks that were > > used then. > I can't see why either - if they used valves (vacuum tubes), the tubes > should still be available NOS or used, same for the valve bases. If the > bases had been smashed, a schematic would be damn useful. Even then you'd not be totally lost without a schematic if you knew the type of valve that was supposed to go there (quite likely to be a double triode, actually). The heater connections should be darn obvious, and you can easily distinguish grid from anode from cathode with a little practice. The only problem would be keeping the right anode/grid/cathode together. I suspect if the holder was broken into a fairly small number of pieces you could fit them back together well enough to work out which pin was which. Anway, can somebody please tell me how running a machine (as opposed to having it on statick display) is going to cause valve holders to break in half? > If it's transistor based, I'd just trace the circuit... > > > [1] An HP9100B. I had to start out by writing the repair manual... > The oldest machine I've worked on... Hmm... That's a tough one... I guess > that would be the Jupiter Cantab "Ace" computer I'm restoring^W rebuiling. Oh, a relatively new machine (must be, it's got one of those new-fangled microprocessors [1] in it) :-) [1] As opposed to an old-fashioned microprocessor, meaning a sequencer running microcode. Both DEC and HP used the word in this sense in the 1970s. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:11:14 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <10305252050.ZM4338@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Peter Turnbull" at May 25, 3 08:50:02 pm Message-ID: > FAQ. This is the result of having a 9302 terminator, whichg asserts > SACK, and a missing NPR jumper somewhere. Either you have a card [...] > response to one of your posts recently, and Tony (on more than one > occasion) explained in detail why this has the effect it does. And I've just given a brief explanation _again_ :-) > Don't feel *too* bad about it, I got caught myself with that, once. Me too... And I once had a problem of a machine halting at the power-fail trap vector (I think) which turned out to be due to a failed DIP switch on a DL11 which made that device's interrupt vector the smae as the power fail trap. As soon as RT11 booted and enabled interrupts, the machine halted. It look a long time to find that one. Of course I spent most of that time with the CPU boards on extenders, trying to sort out the power fail logic... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:11:37 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030525091625.GA1434@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 25, 3 02:16:25 am Message-ID: > On 2003.05.23 16:08 Tony Duell wrote: > > > Do you have a cable with a white (nylon?) edge connector to fit onto > > the front edge of this PCB? If not, you need to make one. > Hmmm. I think there was a smal cable in the bag with the screws.=20 IF you're missing this, it's not too hard to make it... > > Actually, these bricks are relatively friendly in that there are no > > lethal voltages in them > [...] > Yes, but I have no clue about SMPSUs and there theory of operation. All=20 Well, you may not need to really understand what you are doing at first. About 95% of problems in these bricks are cured by testing and replacing the power transsitors and the electrolytic capacitors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:12:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <1cb30ff84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 25, 3 10:20:56 am Message-ID: > In message > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be > > learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern > > machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few > > people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older > > machines are so different. > That's more or less my opinion exactly. As long as I had at least a manual > for the CPU, I could probably sit down in front of a computer and program > it. I'd probably curse the designers or the CPU a few times, but I could > probably do it. I know basic x86 assembler (yuck), some CDP1802 assembler, Well, I don't claim to be a programmer, and I've never used an Altair or an Imsai, but I'll make the following claim. Put me in front of either machine with the standard documentation, and I am _sure_ I could figure out how to use it. > 6502 assembler, C, PASCAL and (rusty) BASIC. I could sit down in front of > nearly any 1980s home computer and program it. I say "nearly any" because I > don't know FORTH, but I do intend to learn it when the Ace is up and running > again. : GREETING ." Hello World !" CR ; :-) Forth is one of my favoruite languages for quick hacks, but then I like RPN systems in general. It took me an afternoon to learn enough Forth to be dangerous :-) > heck of it. To me, priority number one is getting the machine running and > keeping its exterior casing in good condition. Priority two is historical > accuracy - IC datecodes and suchlike. Me too. I'll do reversable kludges, like sticking an IC to the PCB and wiring it in with wire-wrap wire, dead-bug style if I can't get the original part and need to make up a replacement. It can always be ripped out and replaced by the right chip if I do find one. > I'm surprised the Ace's electrolytic capacitors are still OK! WHy? I don't find electrolytics to be a major problem in classic computers (unlike in more modern SMPSUs and monitors...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:13:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <3ED0FE25.16040.113B3E61@localhost> from "Greg Elkin" at May 25, 3 05:32:21 pm Message-ID: > The 11/34a I collected recently (BA11-L chasis, H777 PSU) and had > difficulty getting to power up is in better shape now that it's had a > good clean ; backplane inspected and all the dust & debris removed > from its slots (via "fart in a can", ie compressed air :), the cards Oh, you mean a can of pneumatic fluid :-) > have had their edge connectors cleaned (india rubber) to be nice and > shiny. > > Switching to DC ON, the fans whirr happily and the front panel now > has "DC ON" and "RUN" LEDs on, with 000000 on the 7seg LEDs. > > If I try to halt (keypad CNTRL + HLT/SS), the RUN LED stays on and > BUS ERR LED also comes on. OK... This is rapidly becoming a FAQ here. You have an open-circuit grant chain somewhere, and the M9302 terminator (I assume you've got an M9302 -- it's standard on the 11/34) is asserting SACK and locking the bus. Start by pulleing the M9302 (if you only have the one backplane, the machine will run without termination at the end of the bus, at least for testing). If that gets the machine going, you need to check for missing NPG jumpers and cards that are not correctly passing on the grant signals. > > I can enter an address via LAD, and DISADD shows it again, so the > keyboard seems functional, but I can't change any memory with DEP or > EXAM as the thing is "RUN"ning... > > No $ display on the console terminal yet either. > > Do I need to have the RX02 and RL01 drives connected & powered up for > the CPU box to do anything? I shall try to get some grant cards to > replace the RL11, RX211 and whatever the (non DEC) DR11 card is and > see if I can at least get the console emulator to pop up on the > terminal. > > Off to read the 11/34 Users Manual next (many thanks to Al Kossow for > his site hosting this and so many other usefull docs) > > ta, > greg > > Card configuration is : > 1 AF M8266 KD11EA-control > 2 AF M8265 KD11EA data path > 3 AF M7840 KE11-B blackened/hot bits of PCB round resistor DIPs? > 4 AB M9132 (soldered wires to FPanel) > CF M7859 KY11-LB J1 to (FPanel) > 5 AF M7891 128K*18 MOS mem > 6 AF "Dr11 PHI733-1" card, unknown > 7 AF M7762 RL11 controller > 8 CF M7856 SLU/RTC option > 9 AB M9032 terminator > CF M8256 RX211 interface I notice a couple of NPR devices there (the RL11, the RX211, maybe the DR11) -- are those in the original slots? If not, you may have the NPG jumper fitted on the slot where an NPR device is installed (which will cause problems later) and missing on a different slot (which will cause the problems you are seeing). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:14:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <08662796-8EF1-11D7-B74B-000393AF4F78@mac.com> from "Steve Leach" at May 25, 3 04:39:50 pm Message-ID: > I just retrieved an Altair 8800B from long term storage. I blew away > the dust, checked for loose connections, and finally powered it up. > Lights flickered to life, and then smoke poured from the front panel. > > I pulled it apart, and found a very crispy capacitor number C4 on the > front panel card. My first problem is that this capacitor is so crispy > that I have no way of determining the proper value. It is (was) > connected to a voltage regulator marked "F 79MO8 AUC 7535" The 79M08 is a -8V regulator FWIW... If you are lucky, and if that was a tantalum bead capacitor, then it might be the only fault. I've had them go short-circuit for no good reason and then burn up quite spectacularly. Often the machine carries on running. I can't tell you the value (my schematics, in the 'S100 Handbook' don't show the regulstors), but try someting like 2.2uF as a start. -tony From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:43:00 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 rebuild In-Reply-To: <10305252050.ZM4338@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Greg Elkin" "Re: PDP 11/34 rebuild" (May 25, 17:32) Message-ID: <3ED146C0.15261.1256DAB0@localhost> Thanks Tony, Pete et al I need to go over the backplane to find how DMA (NPR) grant thing is wired on this sytem. Need to learn about Unibux, MUD and SPC and all the other bits yet :) With the M9302 terminator + SACK logic board removed, the front panel now shows RUN briefly then BUS ERR when turning DC ON. And I can deposit & examine data into RAM at 1000+. Trying to look at ROM at 777300 gives a BUS ERR again. Whee, progress anyway from a week or so ago when I was worrying that the PSU was not happy. greg From kth at srv.net Sun May 25 16:48:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Software for NCD 17c Xterminal References: <3ED11FC0.6A2E53AF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3ED14374.6080104@srv.net> David C. Jenner wrote: >I got a nice NCD 17c X terminal a while back, but I don't >have the server software to download to it. Does anyone >have such software or a pointer to where to get it? > >Thanks, >Dave > > You are looking for NCDware, of the proper version to have that X terminal on it. Available from NCD, but they want (iirc) about $300 for it. It is also copyright, and NCD doesn't allow for free hobbyest versions as far as I can tell. From mranalog at attbi.com Sun May 25 16:50:00 2003 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy Message-ID: <3ED14085.4D41F2D9@attbi.com> "TeoZ" wrote: > Like I said before museums have static displays for reasons of > power requirements, lack of personnel that can run the machines, > spare parts that are expensive and hard to find, and the fact > that a screwup during operation could actually destroy one of > the few remaining examples (or only one). Most devices in a > museum are there for either art or function (or combination). And then some museums don't. There are many techniques to avoid static displays. * Rotating the equipment on a turntable with the back open. * Recreating really old equipment or high wear parts. * Equipment displays with interactive java simulation of the equipment running nearby. * Faking the output display on unpowered equipment with the 'PC behind the curtain'. * Or just using equipment that is still some what available. And don't forget the importance of the the right lighting and sound effects. :) I am currently trying to help a gentleman restore a EAI TR-48 desktop analog, from the early 60s, on display in the Retro Beep Computer Museum at Bletchley Park. He wants to run a repetitive simulation for visitors to see. I asked him if the recreated Colossus is actually operated for vistors to the museum. He replied: > The Colossus is running for the visitors to see; > however, there is not a guided viewing with everything > explained and messages decoded etc. You can see the > paper tape loop flying round the bedstead and there > is an oscilloscope for the visitors to see the read > in bit sequence. Also, the machine is behind a wall > with windows because all the frames are open +/- 100 > volts DC and thus not safe for the public to directly > approach. Also, there are various items for everyone > to read on display to explain things. > There is a guided tour of the site with explanations > of the code breaking centres; the Colossus bit is > unguided. I also asked about interactive displays. He reply: > You get to play with the enigma machine I think and > there is a bit of code breaking you can do. > Also, in the Retro beep museum, there are several old > digital personal machines to play with; including Sinclair > spectrums, BBC computers etc ? not very exciting for an > engineer but the kids love them. Also there is a rare > Apple Lisa with original disc system. As well as the > Elliott 803 there are a couple of DEC machine, one of > them being an old original (with front doors made from > kitchen worktops ? as specified by DEC?s founder). He also sent me links to some wonderful interactive web pages, including the 'Virtual Turing Bombe', the 'Virtual 3 wheel Naval Enigma', the 'Virtual 3 wheel Army/Air Force Enigma' and the 'Virtual Colossus'. ENIGMA, BOMBE, and COLOSSUS Links Codes and Ciphers in the Second World War http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/ Great link on the Enigma code, the Turing Bombe, and on the Colossus Click on Tony Sale's reconstruction of Enigma decipherment for the film Enigma or go directly to this page http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/enigmafilm/index.htm Making the Enigma ciphers for the film "Enigma" by Tony Sale Or if you don't want to go through the explaination of the Enigma code and how it was broken, you can go directly to these interactive web pages http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/enigmafilm/bombe/bombe1.htm Virtual Turing Bombe by Tony Sale http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/enigmafilm/emachines/enigman.htm Virtual 3 wheel Naval Enigma by Tony Sale http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/enigmafilm/emachines/enigma1.htm Virtual 3 wheel Army/Air Force Enigma by Tony Sale Or try http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/rebuild.htm The Colossus Rebuild Project which links to http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/virtualbp/fish/vcolossus.htm Virtual Colossus by Tony Sale And the Bombe Rebuild Project http://www.jharper.demon.co.uk/bombe1.htm --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 17:25:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: Collection policy In-Reply-To: <3ED14085.4D41F2D9@attbi.com> from "Doug Coward" at May 25, 3 03:15:33 pm Message-ID: > There are many techniques to avoid static displays. > * Rotating the equipment on a turntable with the back open. Or just positioning it so you can walk round the back (nothing wrong with the low-tech method!) > * Recreating really old equipment or high wear parts. > * Equipment displays with interactive java simulation of > the equipment running nearby. > * Faking the output display on unpowered equipment with > the 'PC behind the curtain'. Bletch. This is faking it, pure and simple... How would you feel if you visited an art gallery and all the paintings were actually high-resolution digial copies of the originals? They may look just the same (and you could argue that the look is all that's important in a paintaing), but they are not the same. I know I'd feel cheated... In fact, I have a policy never to help museums who want to do this (e.g. by allowing them to record the output of one of my working machines). If, on the other hand, they actually want to restore one of their machines to running condition, then I'll provide time, knowledge, and often parts. > * Or just using equipment that is still some what available. > And don't forget the importance of the the right lighting > and sound effects. :) You do know how to get me to start flaming, don't you :-). I've had enough of 'modern lighting' in museums. Meaning lighting where you can't properly examine any of the exhibits. I want to be able to see whatever details I need to see to sort out one of my own machines. Please keep 'creative lighting' for the movies :-) Oh, and if the machine is running you don't need sound effects. -tony From stevenaleach at mac.com Sun May 25 21:07:00 2003 From: stevenaleach at mac.com (Steve Leach) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <001a01c3230c$acfe1be0$03a8a8c0@IBMGK5RKFERKGX> Message-ID: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Well, I must say I'm rather amazed at how quickly I got a response. Within an hour of my post, two individuals (Steve Thatcher and Scott LaBombard) both provided the information on the tantalum cap, and I found the parts at DigiKey. Thanks guys! I'm so glad to see some hope at getting the Altair back up and running. When it sizzled popped and smoked, it was like an old friend had died. If you could humor my electronic ignorance, what exactly IS a tantalum cap and how does it differ from a normal capacitor? I was never before aware that there could be more to a capacitor than plates (or foil) and an electrolyte. How can a capacitor have a polarity? Another question, does anyone know where I can find a replacement for the two position front panel switches on the Altair which are marked "AMERICAN U.S.A ST1-1" These are 2 pos 3 contact switches, and I've not been able to find anything exactly the same dimensions. I am hoping that this is some standard switch and I'm just not aware of it :-) Also, I've come across rumers of Altair manuals online in PDF format. Does anyone know where I could find such a thing? I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get the poor machine put back together and start trying to figure out the disk drives and controllers :-) The machine was stored for over seven years in a barn wrapped in plastic bags (not my decision! Don't burn me at the stake!) I wonder how many more surprises I'm in for? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun May 25 21:46:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> References: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Steve Leach wrote: > Another question, does anyone know where I can find a replacement for > the two position front panel switches on the Altair which are marked > "AMERICAN U.S.A ST1-1" These are 2 pos 3 contact switches, and I've not > been able to find anything exactly the same dimensions. I am hoping > that this is some standard switch and I'm just not aware of it :-) What type of switches are they? Toggle? Rotary? Both C&K and Alco both manufacture a huge variety of switches, one of which is bound to be a very close, if not an exact replacement. Are the original switches not repairable? -Toth From stevenaleach at mac.com Sun May 25 22:59:00 2003 From: stevenaleach at mac.com (Steve Leach) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:52 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! Message-ID: <1A11C737-8F2E-11D7-9769-000393AF4F78@mac.com> >What type of switches are they? Toggle? Rotary? Both C&K and Alco both >manufacture a huge variety of switches, one of which is bound to be a very >close, if not an exact replacement. Are the original switches not >repairable? These are toggle switches with two closed positions and three contacts, ie two on positions and a common ground in the middle. My problem is finding the correct dimensions, ie spacing between connectors as well as height above the board and the length and width of the "neck" to protrude through the panel.. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun May 25 23:14:00 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Message-ID: <021a01c3233d$151fd210$947ba8c0@p933> I can't remember exactly where I downloaded the PDF Altair Manuals from, but I am pretty sure they were for the 8800/8800a and not the 8800B. If I find the CD I burned them to I'll check to see if I saved the URL and if there are 8800B manuals there. If so, I'll be happy to point you to the site or mail you a copy of the PDFs if the site is gone. In the meantime, I would suggest checking out either www.altairmanuals.com or http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s100.html. Both sites will sell you a copy of the 8800B manuals for a reasonable price. Good luck! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum (The Vintage Computer Forum) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leach Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 7:06 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! Well, I must say I'm rather amazed at how quickly I got a response. Within an hour of my post, two individuals (Steve Thatcher and Scott LaBombard) both provided the information on the tantalum cap, and I found the parts at DigiKey. Thanks guys! I'm so glad to see some hope at getting the Altair back up and running. When it sizzled popped and smoked, it was like an old friend had died. If you could humor my electronic ignorance, what exactly IS a tantalum cap and how does it differ from a normal capacitor? I was never before aware that there could be more to a capacitor than plates (or foil) and an electrolyte. How can a capacitor have a polarity? Another question, does anyone know where I can find a replacement for the two position front panel switches on the Altair which are marked "AMERICAN U.S.A ST1-1" These are 2 pos 3 contact switches, and I've not been able to find anything exactly the same dimensions. I am hoping that this is some standard switch and I'm just not aware of it :-) Also, I've come across rumers of Altair manuals online in PDF format. Does anyone know where I could find such a thing? I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get the poor machine put back together and start trying to figure out the disk drives and controllers :-) The machine was stored for over seven years in a barn wrapped in plastic bags (not my decision! Don't burn me at the stake!) I wonder how many more surprises I'm in for? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 25 23:44:00 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: [Fwd: [B205] Re: Reel Tape for B9 Builders] Message-ID: <3ED19AA0.50801@jetnet.ab.ca> you guys may need 3 inch tape some day too! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [B205] Re: Reel Tape for B9 Builders Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:24:01 -0000 From: "Stan Brewer" Reply-To: B205@yahoogroups.com To: B205@yahoogroups.com There is one last chance to buy a 3inch reel tape for your B9. I have ten tapes, and once they are gone, thats it. See ebay Item # 3026315320 for a dutch auction. Stan --- In B205@yahoogroups.com, "Stan Brewer" wrote: > Are you building a full sized B9 robot and need a 3 inch > reel to reel tape for the programming bay? > > Have you filled up the tape on your current B9? > > Do you just want some part of a B9? > > If so, check out the ebay auction Item # 3024945469. > > Stan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/SyTolB/TM From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon May 26 02:54:00 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05248bf84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Even then you'd not be totally lost without a schematic if you knew the > type of valve that was supposed to go there (quite likely to be a double > triode, actually). The heater connections should be darn obvious, and you > can easily distinguish grid from anode from cathode with a little > practice. The only problem would be keeping the right anode/grid/cathode > together. I'm not that good with vacuum tube circuitry, but if the computer is based on digital logic or microprocessor technology and the parts are available, I'd at least have a go at fixing it. Now I've developed a trick for getting the parts that are to be replaced out of the PCB without FUBARing it... > Anway, can somebody please tell me how running a machine (as opposed to > having it on statick display) is going to cause valve holders to break in > half? Valve overheats, base was (hypothetically) made of crappy materials, base cracks, then the heat of the valve cracks it in half or whatever. Highly unlikely, but not outside the realms of possibility. Then again, it could have occured during shipping... > > The oldest machine I've worked on... Hmm... That's a tough one... I guess > > that would be the Jupiter Cantab "Ace" computer I'm restoring^W rebuiling. > Oh, a relatively new machine (must be, it's got one of those new-fangled > microprocessors [1] in it) :-) :-) I'm more interested in collecting old home computers. I have been known to break that rule once or twice, though. > [1] As opposed to an old-fashioned microprocessor, meaning a sequencer > running microcode. Both DEC and HP used the word in this sense in the 1970s. Didn't I mention that I was planning to buy some LS logic chips and build my own CPU? Then again, I might just cheat and buy an FPGA... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 26 03:01:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Sun, May 25, 2003 at 22:35:07 CEST References: <20030525091625.GA1434@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20030526095119.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.25 22:35 Tony Duell wrote: > IF you're missing this, it's not too hard to make it... I am back at home so I could look: I have the cable. > > Yes, but I have no clue about SMPSUs and there theory of operation. > Well, you may not need to really understand what you are doing at > first. About 95% of problems in these bricks are cured by testing > and replacing the power transsitors and the electrolytic capacitors. Well. I am an engineer. I want to understand and analyze, not blind poking. OK. It looks like I need some off time from my NetBSD hacking project so I will try to set up the transformer, bricks, etc. on my workbench to have a closer look. My multimeter and my HP scope are my friends. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon May 26 03:04:02 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Well, I don't claim to be a programmer, and I've never used an Altair or > an Imsai, but I'll make the following claim. Put me in front of either > machine with the standard documentation, and I am _sure_ I could figure > out how to use it. Same here. Give me the machine and the documentation and I'll most likely be able to do the same. > : GREETING ." Hello World !" CR ; Aargh! Another FORTH coder :-) > Forth is one of my favoruite languages for quick hacks, but then I like > RPN systems in general. It took me an afternoon to learn enough Forth to > be dangerous :-) In which case, it'll probably take me about a week when the Ace is up and running. Like I said, this time I'm going to buy a power supply and cut off all the unused connectors. That should reduce the probability of another catastrophic failure.. > > I'm surprised the Ace's electrolytic capacitors are still OK! > > WHy? I don't find electrolytics to be a major problem in classic > computers (unlike in more modern SMPSUs and monitors...) Well, that's true. I've seen two year old computers with faulty capacitors, yet my ZX Spectrum +2A (anyone got a spare disc controller?) still works fine. I used to have the lightgun and the "James Bond Games Pack" (IIRC), but that bit the dust when my 14" TV landed on top of the tape box and lightgun. Cause? A former friend who couldn't accept that he couldn't get past level 1 on "Operation Wolf"... Hmm... With friends like that, who needs enemies? Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 26 04:56:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: Steve Leach "Re: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!!" (May 25, 22:05) References: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Message-ID: <10305261052.ZM4777@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 22:05, Steve Leach wrote: > If you could humor my electronic ignorance, what exactly IS a tantalum > cap and how does it differ from a normal capacitor? I was never before > aware that there could be more to a capacitor than plates (or foil) and > an electrolyte. How can a capacitor have a polarity? Almost all electrolytic caps are polarised. In principle, a tantalum capacitor is just like an aluminium electrolytic, only using a more exotic metal (tantalum pentoxide has a dielectric constant about 4-5 times higher than aluminium oxide) and a solid electrolyte. The anode is the foil (or bead, if it's sintered tantalum tantalum), the oxide layer on it is the dialectric, and the electrolyte is the cathode. Passing current from cathode to anode will build up the oxide layer, the other way will break it down. From a chemist's point of view, putting electrons into the cathode and taking them out of the anode makes some of the metallic aluminium (Al) ionise into Al+++, and if there are oxygen ions (O--) adjacent, it forms alumina (Al203) -- standard RedOx reaction, exactly the same as anodising aluminium for protection. You have to maintain the polarity to maintain the oxide layer; if you reverse it the electrons will break down the oxide layer. The aluminium ions would gain electrons, the oxygen ions would lose them, the alumina becomes aluminium and oxygen, and then you have no more highly-insulating aluminium oxide dielctric. Think of the aluminium-alumina junction as a junction diode, with a very high resistance in one direction and a very low resistance the other way. There's a brief description of construction at http://www.chipcenter.com/eexpert/akruger/akruger006.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Mon May 26 07:12:01 2003 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Termiprinters (was Selectrics) gone? References: Message-ID: <061c01c3237f$f8dc6d00$0100a8c0@athlon> Yep- That's them Tony. - Cardcage across the rear. Called a bustle, wasn't it? I know there's still a manual of some sort round here but it's stored away with other older handbooks. Can dig it out if it's likely to be of any use. Had to part out two or three to get the rest all going concerns so there may even be some of those displays still here. If you are interested I will have a look. All the ones I had were RO versions- they were used as local printers for terminals hosted by an ICL (surprise!) mainframe which I also 'removed'. Can't recall what it was though. As a result of that enterprise we had orange 'washing machines' all over the back yard for months. (They were about the right size, so that's what the kids called them.) Actually CDC drives, from memory. The disk packs were all of 60MB/s and they had a magnificent half horsepower single phase motor driving them. Even now, relocating that monster and getting it all running again would be a real challenge-back then (~1978) it was not even considered. Dave Brown Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 8:20 AM Subject: Re: Where have all the Selectrics gone? > > And what about the Termiprinters-none of them left now either I guess- think > > Are those the ones with the bammer bank and print belt, a bit like a mini > line printer? Not a true line printer, though -- a maximum of 4 hammers > can fire at a time since the PSU couldn't handle any more. > > If so, I have a pair of them, along with the field service manual. No > complete schematics :-(. Mine started off as a 74 column KSR and a 118 > column RO, but I moved the wider hammer bank into the KSR machine and > made the appropriate changes to the jumpering on the PCBs.THe only > problem was the print position indicator (a numeric display indicating > where the virtual printhead is) -- RO models didn't have it, and the one > in my KSR was only 2 digits (obviously). I added an extra red LED to > indicate the hundreds (no way could I get the original filament > displays). A kludge, but it worked... > > > I saw a couple of the answerback pcb's out in the garage recently-the ones > > with a strappable diode matrix assy to program up the answerback code. Had > > I never had the answerback option. > > > 20 or so of the basic 300 baud variants pass thru my hands about 15 years > > back but no idea where any of them are now. There was even a 'fast' version > > (badged HP) that could print about twice as fast as the standard ones. Might > > Mine are ICL-badged, and at least one has the 600 baud position. > > -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 26 07:29:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: IIfx memory Message-ID: <004701c32381$43ffd960$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Anybody know where to get memory (4mb simm or better) for a mac IIfx cheap or have some they dont want. I think its 64 pin proprietary memory (also used in a specific mac printer cant recall). Its funny how apple makes proprietary memory for only 1 specific model computer (how is that cost effective?), just like the memory upgrade for my apple 4/600 PS laser (one of a kind). From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 26 07:34:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: <001301c322d8$d78c43c0$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > #11 Looks like a Lier Siegler ADM 3A type terminal It's a Televideo model. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 26 07:35:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > This is interesting also: > > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=187037&convertTo=USD > > VAX/11/751? Whatever it was it's pretty much scrap now :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cli at pholink.com Mon May 26 07:58:00 2003 From: cli at pholink.com (Chuanxiao Li (Pholink)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Tektronix 2430A overshot (overrange) can't pass self-diagnostics Message-ID: <006301c32386$4d66abf0$707ba8c0@vaio> Hi: The Tek 2430A input is "50 Ohm 5V RMS". I put 200V in CH1, then smell something. after that the 2430A can't pass the Extended-Diagnostics! (CH2 is OK). Does anyone know which component was burnt away? thanks Li 0000 Extended -Diagnostics 1000 Sys-Rom Pass 2000 Reg Pass 3000 Sys-Ram Pass 4000 FPP Pass 5000 WP Pass 6000 Cksum-Nvram Pass 7000 CCD Pass 8000 PA Fail 8100 Offset Fail 8110 Norm-SP Fail 8111 CH1 Fail 8112 CH2 Pass 8120 Norm-FISO Fail 8121 CH1 Fail 8122 CH2 Pass 8130 ENV-SP-slow Fail 8131 CH1 Fail 8132 CH2 Pass 8140 ENV-FISO-slow 8141 CH1 Fail 8142 CH2 Pass 8200 Pos-Agin Fail 8210 CH1 Fail 8220 CH2 Pass 8300 Balance Fail 8310 50mV Fail 8311 CH1 Fail 8312 CH2 Pass 8320 20mV Fail 8321 CH1 Fail 8322 CH2 Pass 8330 10mV Fail 8331 CH1 Fail 8332 CH2 Pass 8340 5mV Fail 8341 CH1 Fail 8342 CH2 Pass 8350 2mV Fail 8351 CH1 Fail 8352 CH2 Pass 8400 Gain Fail 8410 50mV Fail 8411 CH1 Fail 8412 CH2 Pass 8420 20mV Fail 8421 CH1 Fail 8422 CH2 Pass 8430 10mV Fail 8431 CH1 Fail 8432 CH2 Pass 8440 5mV Fail 8441 CH1 Fail 8442 CH2 Pass 8450 2mV Fail 8451 CH1 Fail 8452 CH2 Pass 8500 INV-Gain Fail 8510 50mV Fail 8511 CH1 Fail 8512 CH2 Pass 8520 20mV Fail 8521 CH1 Fail 8522 CH2 Pass 8530 10mV Fail 8531 CH1 Fail 8532 CH2 Pass 8540 5mV Fail 8541 CH1 Fail 8542 CH2 Pass 8550 2mV Fail 8551 CH1 Fail 8552 CH2 Pass 8600 Var-Max Fail 8610 CH1 Fail 7620 CH2 Pass 8700 Attenuator * Pass 9000 Trigs Fail 9100 Offset Fail 9110 A-trig Fail 9111 CH1 Fail 9112 CH2 Pass 9113 Slop Fail 9114 Ext1X1* Pass 9115 Ext1X5* Pass 9116 Ext2X1* Pass 9117 Ext2X5* Pass 9120 B-trig Fail 9121 CH1 Fail 9122 CH2 Pass 9123 Slop Fail 9124 Ext1X1* Pass 9125 Ext1X5* Pass 9126 Ext2X1* Pass 9127 Ext2X5* Pass 9200 Gain Fail 9210 A-trig Fail 9211 CH1 Fail 9212 CH2 Pass 9213 Ext1X1* Pass 9214 Ext1X5* Pass 9215 Ext2X1* Pass 9216 Ext2X5* Pass 9220 B-trig Fail 9221 CH1 Fail 9222 CH2 Pass 9223 Ext1X1* Pass 9224 Ext1X5* Pass 9225 Ext2X1* Pass 9226 Ext2X5* Pass 9300 Repet* Pass From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon May 26 08:01:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030526125950.24584.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I'm surprised the Ace's electrolytic capacitors are still OK! > > > > WHy? I don't find electrolytics to be a major problem in classic > > computers (unlike in more modern SMPSUs and monitors...) > Well, that's true. I've seen two year old computers with faulty > capacitors, > yet my ZX Spectrum +2A (anyone got a spare disc controller?) still works > fine. There was a story a few months to a year back about bad Taiwanese electrolytic caps pervading the market - it seems that someone stole *half* of a secret electrolytic formula from Japan. Millions of defective caps made it into the marketplace. They outgas and rupture. Symptoms include distended pressure relief plates (the cross on the top of some packages) or extruding the rubber plug out of the body of the cap. I've seen motherboards with 80% of the caps visibly failed. Two year old equipment falls into the window of when the defective caps were being sold. Yes, really old caps might need to be reformed, but five year old caps are more likely to last five more years (or more) than two year old caps are to last another two years. -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From scannall at mac.com Mon May 26 08:59:00 2003 From: scannall at mac.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: IIfx memory In-Reply-To: <004701c32381$43ffd960$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > Anybody know where to get memory (4mb simm or better) for a mac IIfx cheap or > have some they dont want. I think its 64 pin proprietary memory (also used in > a specific mac printer cant recall). > > Its funny how apple makes proprietary memory for only 1 specific model > computer (how is that cost effective?), just like the memory upgrade for my > apple 4/600 PS laser (one of a kind). I found some at http://www.clcr.com/memory/fdapple2586.htm. Dan Smith From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 26 09:17:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: IIfx memory References: Message-ID: <000801c32390$44b548e0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> The links for pricing are invalid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Smith" To: Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:58 AM Subject: Re: IIfx memory > > Anybody know where to get memory (4mb simm or better) for a mac IIfx cheap or > > have some they dont want. I think its 64 pin proprietary memory (also used in > > a specific mac printer cant recall). > > > > Its funny how apple makes proprietary memory for only 1 specific model > > computer (how is that cost effective?), just like the memory upgrade for my > > apple 4/600 PS laser (one of a kind). > > I found some at http://www.clcr.com/memory/fdapple2586.htm. > > Dan Smith From lgomez at cdromsa.es Mon May 26 09:23:00 2003 From: lgomez at cdromsa.es (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Luis_G=F3mez?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c32392$1e6d41e0$9600a8c0@Luis> Is there a service manual for Enterprise 64/128? Somebody know if is usual problems with Dave and/or Nick? In my Enterprise 128 i know the problem is not with CPU Z80, BIOS, memory expansion, data bus, address bus, power ... I'm now checking the first 64Kb, but if this memory is ok i don't know how can i check if the problem is with custom chips. Another question. Do you know if there is some kind of jumper to set memory to 64Kb or 128Kb? Thanks -----Mensaje original----- De: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]En nombre de Witchy Enviado el: jueves, 22 de mayo de 2003 1:21 Para: cctech@classiccmp.org Asunto: RE: Enterprise 64 and 128 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Luis G?mez > Sent: 21 May 2003 15:25 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 > > > I'm repairing an Enterprise 128. Has somebody experience > repairing this computer? > > I have other Enterprise 64 in perfect condition. > > 12v DC and 5v DC in board are ok > Eprom chip is ok (i exchanged it between two computer) > > I have schematic but only og memory expansion, and i/o circuit, > including Dave chip. > > I need schematics of complete board. Dammit, I've got a ton of Enterprise stuff including factory machinery and technical documentation as well as unused or returned machines, but out of all that the one thing I haven't got is a full schematic. The people who were at Enterprise (or Elan, or Flan or whoever :) I've contacted don't seem to want to talk about their creation, which is a bloody shame. Then again times were hard back then, and people were being screwed over on a regular basis so I can understand, sort of. Doesn't help me get my prototype hard drive interfaces working though, does it :o) Luis, if you need anything from the technical docs I can scan or (hopefully) photocopy, but it's purely words and no pictures..... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From pcw at mesanet.com Mon May 26 09:32:00 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 25 May 2003, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > This is interesting also: > > > > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=187037&convertTo=USD > > > > VAX/11/751? > > Whatever it was it's pretty much scrap now :( Nah, just needs a little body work... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > Peter Wallace From scannall at mac.com Mon May 26 11:08:00 2003 From: scannall at mac.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: IIfx memory In-Reply-To: <000801c32390$44b548e0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: Hi there, Yeah, I just noticed that. Here's one that supposedly has them in stock. It's the same memory as what's installed in the LaserWriter IINtx. http://www.welovemacs.com/apple-memory-mac-ii--mac-se--classic-mac-iifx.html Dan Smith > The links for pricing are invalid > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:58 AM > Subject: Re: IIfx memory > > >>> Anybody know where to get memory (4mb simm or better) for a mac IIfx > cheap or >>> have some they dont want. I think its 64 pin proprietary memory (also > used in >>> a specific mac printer cant recall). >>> >>> Its funny how apple makes proprietary memory for only 1 specific model >>> computer (how is that cost effective?), just like the memory upgrade for > my >>> apple 4/600 PS laser (one of a kind). >> >> I found some at http://www.clcr.com/memory/fdapple2586.htm. >> >> Dan Smith From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon May 26 11:43:01 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Message-ID: <022801c323a5$d87c0bd0$947ba8c0@p933> > Also, I've come across rumers of Altair manuals online in PDF format. > Does anyone know where I could find such a thing? I should have remembered immediately. Rich Cini has the manuals online (including the operators manual for the 8800B) now at: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32links.htm Good luck with your machine! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum (The Vintage Computer Forum) From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon May 26 14:55:00 2003 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Termiprinters (was Selectrics) gone? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 May 2003 00:11:42 +1200." <061c01c3237f$f8dc6d00$0100a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <200305261840.TAA17124@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Dave Brown" said: > All the ones I had were RO versions- they were used as local printers for > terminals hosted by an ICL (surprise!) mainframe which I also 'removed'. > Can't recall what it was though. I had the manual for these behind my desk in work and I took it home when we went from ICL to Univac about 20yrs ago. Unfortunately I threw the manual pages out (there was practically no interest in such things then...) and all I have left is the ICL binder they came in. I remember the orange and grey terminals well... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From n8uhn at yahoo.com Mon May 26 15:16:00 2003 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? Message-ID: <20030526201511.37100.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> What about the serial or parallel line printers that used a type band/belt? i used to see alot in the add's for pc's now thier gone too. i wouldn't mind finding one for the pc just to hear the noise again;) i remember the operating noises they made paper clamp,line feed and the hammers hitting the paper - the order of printing was(from the back of the printer to the front of the paper) hammer's,paper,ribbon then type band. Bill Message: 1 Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:33:01 -0700 From: J Forbes To: Cassic Computing Subject: Re: Where have all the Selectrics gone? Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org > From: "Mike Ross" > IBM made a bunch of printer terminals based around the Selectric typewriter > - 1052, 2740, 2970 etc. Look in any old copy of BYTE, and you'll also find > several vendors were selling 3rd party terminals based around IBM > Selectrics, often converted for ASCII/RS-232c operation, as teletype > alternatives. > > Where have they all gone? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 26 16:34:00 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jules=20Richardson?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Software for NCD 17c Xterminal Message-ID: <20030526213313.66744.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, > I got a nice NCD 17c X terminal a while back, but I don't > have the server software to download to it. Does anyone > have such software or a pointer to where to get it? If you just need the boot image, I think you're looking for a file called "Xncd17c" - I use Xncd19c for my 88k-based xterm (or did, last time I used it for anything!) These used to be freely available on ftp.ncd.com (up until 2 years ago for sure) in their own "older units" directory tree but seem to have vanished. However a quick google returned: http://www.stat.wisc.edu/p/stat/tftpboot/cs/Xncd17c ... which may be exactly what you need. Set up a tftp server somewhere with the image on and you're away :) cheers, Jules __________________________________________________ It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others. Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 26 16:41:00 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: <20030526201511.37100.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > What about the serial or parallel line printers that > used a type band/belt? > Wow. That mention brings back memories. I used to have a GE Terminet 300 printer. It had a belt with little metal fingers of metal sticking up perpendicularly out of the belt. Each had a letter on the end and they ran constantly in front of an 80 column hammer bank. As soon as the right character was lined up with the right hammer in the bank, *whack* a letter was printed. :) It was my only printer for quite some time. Serial too. I had it hooked up to my Royal Alphatronics PC CP/M machine. Those were the days. *laughs* g. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 26 17:30:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <05248bf84b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 26, 3 08:49:14 am Message-ID: > > Even then you'd not be totally lost without a schematic if you knew the > > type of valve that was supposed to go there (quite likely to be a double > > triode, actually). The heater connections should be darn obvious, and you > > can easily distinguish grid from anode from cathode with a little > > practice. The only problem would be keeping the right anode/grid/cathode > > together. > I'm not that good with vacuum tube circuitry, but if the computer is based > on digital logic or microprocessor technology and the parts are available, > I'd at least have a go at fixing it. Now I've developed a trick for getting I'll go further than that -- I'd have a go at fixing just about anything. Being able to get the right spares and having the original schematics and service manuals helps, but it is not essential (as I have proved many times :-)) > the parts that are to be replaced out of the PCB without FUBARing it... The best way I've found for pin-through-hole DIPs is to suck off all the solder I can with a good solder sucker [1], and then to press the leads inwards towards the body of the chip on the component side to break the remaing bit of solder. The chip then comes out without damage. [1] A smear of petroleum jelly (vaseline, etc) on the O-ring of a solder sucker really improves it! > Valve overheats, base was (hypothetically) made of crappy materials, base > cracks, then the heat of the valve cracks it in half or whatever. I have _never_ seen this happen, and I run a lot of valved equipment still.. Anyway, if this happened, I suspect you'd still be able to see how the parts should fit together, and thus would be able to record which wires went to each pin. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 26 17:30:45 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030526095119.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 26, 3 09:51:19 am Message-ID: > > > Yes, but I have no clue about SMPSUs and there theory of operation. > > Well, you may not need to really understand what you are doing at > > first. About 95% of problems in these bricks are cured by testing=20 > > and replacing the power transsitors and the electrolytic capacitors. > Well. I am an engineer. I want to understand and analyze, not blind > poking.=20 OK... That's good. I hate lucky-dip servicing too... There are several good references on SMPSU design (the section in 'The Art of Electronics' 2nd edition is a good staring point), and these DEC PSU bricks are a pretty standard step-down regualtor circuit. The only unconvention feature is that the controller is a 723 chip, not a special SMPSU chip. The 723 is basically a votlag reference and a (separate) op-amp in one package, so it's not hard to understand. o-----\ /----------------+-----UUUUUUUUUUUU-------+-------o \ from "Steve Leach" at May 25, 3 10:05:36 pm Message-ID: > If you could humor my electronic ignorance, what exactly IS a tantalum > cap and how does it differ from a normal capacitor? I was never before > aware that there could be more to a capacitor than plates (or foil) and > an electrolyte. How can a capacitor have a polarity? A capactior is actually 2 plates separated by an insulator, called the dielectric. In the case of something like a mylar capacitor (or one of the other 'plastic' ones), the dielectric is a thin piece of mylar with the metal films (for the plates) deposited on the 2 sides. The whole thing is then rolled up to get it into a small enough package. In an electrolytic capacitor (there are 2 common types, aluminium and tantalum), the 2 plates are a metal plate and the electrolyte. The dielectric is an oxide film on the surface of the plate. This film is very thin, which meance you can get a large capacitance in a small package _but_ it will also redisolve into the electrolyte, especially if the capacitor is wired up backwards. That's why these units are polarised. Connect them backwards and the dielectric disolves, the capacitor becomes a short circuit. If enough current can then flow, the electrolyte might even boil with the consequent explosion of the can! Electrolytic caps fail in 2 main ways. Firstly the dielectric might redisolve in the electrolyte, causing a short. Secondly the electrolyte can evapourate ('dry up'), inceeasing the effective series resistance (ESR) of the capacitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 26 17:31:29 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at May 26, 3 09:01:13 am Message-ID: > > : GREETING ." Hello World !" CR ; > Aargh! Another FORTH coder :-) Of course... Here's a _very_ brief introduction to Forth. Forth consists of 'words' sepeared by whitespace. When the Forth system reads your command line, it looks up each word in its 'dictionary'. If it can find it, it executes it. If not, it attempts to translate the sequence of characters as a number in the current base. If that fails too, it gives an error message. Forth arithmetic is done using reverse polish notation (it virtually has to be using that method of esecution), and is often integer only. So, when you get your Forth system running, type something like 2 3 + (the spaces are, of course important, although you can type more than 1 if you like). This pushs 2 on the stack (the first thing was not found in the dictionary, so was taken as a numbner [1]), then pushes 3, then executes the word '+' when pops 2 numbers off the stack ans pushes the sum. The stack now contains 5. [1] OK, experienced Forth hackers will realise I've simplified things here. It's common to have small numbers (generally -1, 0, 1, 2, 3 and maybe others) defined as words in the dictionary so as to speed up execution. These words just push the obvious value onto the stack when executed. But there's no reason to have these defined -- the system can run without them. But you can't see it. The forth word . (that's a single period, and is pronounced 'dot') pops the top of stack and displays it as a number in the currnet base. Try it. You should get '5' displayed somewhere. The stack is now empty. So far it's just an integer-only calculator. What makes Forth interesting is that you can add your own words to the dictionary (in fact that's how you generally program in Forth, you just keep on defining new words). There are sevveral ways to do this, the simplest is the 'colon definition'. This defines a new word (immediately following a colon) in terms of existing words. The definition is ended by a semicolon. OK, let's try that : SQ DUP * ; This defines a new word called 'SQ' (for 'square') as being the same as DUP *. That means duplicate the number on top of stack, then multiply the 2 numbers on the stack. This, of course, multiplies the top of stack by itself (a reasonable way to square it :-)). OK, yuou can now try out the new definition 4 SQ . (don't forget the 'dot') should display 16 Or 4 SQ 3 SQ + . should display 25 Note you can use 'home made' words just like the ones in the system. You can even use them in new definitions, e.g. ; 4TH-POWER SQ SQ ; Obviously there's a lot more to the language than that (loops, conditionals, etc), but that should be a start. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 26 17:31:53 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <10305261052.ZM4777@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Peter Turnbull" at May 26, 3 10:52:45 am Message-ID: > Think of the aluminium-alumina junction as a junction diode, with a > very high resistance in one direction and a very low resistance the > other way. About 80 years ago, there was a thing called an 'electrolytic rectifier' which IIRC used this sort of principle. They were used for low voltages in battery charagers, etc. I think I have the instructions for making them somewhere, but I've never tried it! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 26 17:32:15 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Termiprinters (was Selectrics) gone? In-Reply-To: <061c01c3237f$f8dc6d00$0100a8c0@athlon> from "Dave Brown" at May 27, 3 00:11:42 am Message-ID: > Yep- That's them Tony. - Cardcage across the rear. Called a bustle, wasn't That's right :-). It's all coming back to me now... > it? I know there's still a manual of some sort round here but it's stored I have the full ICL service manual. It's not too bad on the mechanics [1], but there's not much detail on the electronics ... [1] Mind you, when I first got mine, I stripped down the hammer bank to clean it then looked at the manual to find out how to put it together and adjust it. The manual simply said it was not field repairable!. However, I got it back without major problems... > away with other older handbooks. Can dig it out if it's likely to be of any > use. Had to part out two or three to get the rest all going concerns so > there may even be some of those displays still here. If you are interested I > will have a look. > All the ones I had were RO versions- they were used as local printers for The RO models never had the display AFAIK. -tony From norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com Mon May 26 22:48:01 2003 From: norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com (Norm Aleks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Computer-tourism in Manhattan Message-ID: Hi, folks. I'm starting a vacation this Saturday with a few days in Manhattan. Are there good classic computing or telecommunications museums, or other interesting sites, there? I know IBM used to have a museum in Manhattan, but I never got to see it -- I'd hate to miss something else just before it closed. Any help is appreciated, and I'll gladly take pictures and/or send postcards for those who are interested :-) Norm From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 26 23:13:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies References: Message-ID: <001f01c32406$325bda30$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... >> It's a Televideo model. I have two of these. Identical to the one in the picture. One says Televideo, one says Lier Siegler. I always thought the Televideo was the rebadged one. Jay west From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue May 27 02:14:01 2003 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Termiprinters (was Selectrics) gone? References: Message-ID: <006d01c3241f$977c7cd0$0100a8c0@athlon> Someone else (Gene B) has just posted what I think is the answer to another question I had- whether the termiprinter was an ICL development- sounds like the GE Terminet is the same machine- so who made it first and who copied? The high speed one I had was badged HP. Tony-- The ROs I had were not all 'factory' --several were KSRs and simply had the keyboards removed. I'll have a look for those displays anyway and let you know. DaveB Christchurch, NZ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 27 04:38:01 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: <20030526201511.37100.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030527022804.0324dd20@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Every scrap place I know of puts selectrics aside for "somebody" that comes and gets them when they have enough to make the trip worthwhile. Different somebodies at different scrap places, but I don't think anybody tosses them, and thats good. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue May 27 05:26:00 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... Message-ID: <14f81cf94b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi, I've just finished fixing the Ace's PCB using wire-wrap wire. All the broken tracks I've managed to find have been fixed and all the damaged through-hole plating has been repaired. Except there's one problem. The Ace *still* won't boot to the FORTH interpreter. There is a load of garbage on the display - this seems to change while the machine is running. The power consumption of the board - CPU and all - is around 800mA (according to the crappy meter on my Farnell 1A bench PSU). I've got the output on the PSU set to 9V, no current limit. Does anyone here have a logic analyser or microprocessor debugger that I could borrow for a few days? I've got two scopes (a Tek 466 and a Gould OS1100) and a Fluke 25 multimeter, but that's about it in terms of test equipment. Alternatively, does anyone know if a diagnostic ROM exists for the Ace? Something that would replace ROM A and just load the video/font RAM with the usual Ace character set would be very handy. The 2114Ls I'm using appear to be OK, but they draw a lot of current - in the region of 75 to 100mA each. Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From hansp at citem.org Tue May 27 07:01:00 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED04E3C.3050805@citem.org> Tony Duell wrote: > A case in point. I know a museum which has a straight-8. They are missing > 2 flip-chip cards from it. I happen to have a box full of boards pulled > from a straight-8 (no, the chassis was not around when I got to grab the > cards, and no I wasn't involved in pulling them). I offered said museum > the 2 cards they needed, free of charge. They didn't want them because > the date code stamped on the board was 2 years too late. > > A few points > 3) The machine in question was not an original obtained from DEC and > never used. It was a machine that had been used for many years before > being donated to the museum. What's the betting that some flip-chip cards > were replaced while the machine was in use? Did you suggest that they check the date code on all the other cards ;-) >>are expensive and hard to find, and the fact that a screwup during operation >>could actually destroy one of the few remaining examples (or only one). Most > I doubt it would destroy the machine in the sense that it could no longer > be used as an exhibit, or indeed that it could no longer be restored > again. In that sense, a machine that had been restored and then failed > during the museum demonstration is no different to a machine that's never > been restored. An makes the demonstration closer to real life when machines DID break down. I even imagine demonstrations of engineers fixing and testing the machines, a regular occurrence. Today you simply go aout an buy a new one :-( > Are you seriously implying that the internals of a fairly modern computer > and one made, perhaps, 30 years ago are significantly different? Because > I find them to be very similar... They ARE entiely the same, the difference is that to see that resemblance you need to run the machine. The museum s stance of showing only statc display accentuates only the differences without explaining the similarities. >>different today, how can people relate to this? While there are still a few >>people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will be >>nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things are > Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be > learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern > machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few > people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older > machines are so different. Precisely! and I see the older machines as offering a path towards better understanding. -- hbp From hansp at citem.org Tue May 27 07:01:58 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED04FF7.6090106@citem.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I agree. The problem seems to be that many of the traditional exhibits in > museums (fine art, archeology, etc) _are_ static objects and the > appearence is, in general all that matters and all that can be observed. > This is _not_ true of computers (or other scientific and > engineering-related objects), but the museums don't seem to realise this > and apply the same policies to all objects. And worse to the categorisation and descritpion. We are in the process of inventorying our collection, the PDP-9 is described as "a cabinet xx cm tall, xx cm wide, xx cm deep with orange and black panels and an operator console". That neatly describes a museums view of a PDP-9 !! I am currently in a battle royal to get this point of view chamged. > Can somebody please explain to me why it is so difficult to _learn_ these > skills? I will admit I've enver worked on a 1950's computer (the oldest > machine I've worked on dates from 1969 [1]), but I don't see why I'd find > it impossible given a little bit of time to learn the tricks that were > used then. After all the folks in the 60's learnt their tricks from those that worked in the 50's! >>This is clearly an issue we need to pass on these skills to a younger >>generation. Here at ACONIT our goal is a conservatoire of computing >>history, hopefully as such it will perpetuate the skills needed. The > It's interesting that a small private computer history group that I > belong to states its aims as 'preserving old computers, programs, methods > and operating practices as far as possible'. Clearly they think (as do I) > there's more that need to be preserved than just circuit boards :-) An entirely rightly so!!! I recently recoverd an entire PDP-9 OS thought long lost from three DECtapes found in a batch of over 100. Had "policy" been applied at least 90 of those tapes would have been trashed on the grounds that "we already have ten of those". -- hbp From hansp at citem.org Tue May 27 07:02:21 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <3ED0518E.4030702@citem.org> TeoZ wrote: > Put somebody that only knows a keyboard, mouse, and > supervga screen in front of a IMSAI 8080 and they wont know what to do. No, but they can learn. I do EXACTLY that with a PDP-8/e cpu I drag around to show at school exhibitions. The first question I get, of course, is where is the screen and keyboard. I teach the kids binary, than, with the aid of a small program left in the core we calculate the mean of a sequence of numbers entered in binary. And not a screen or keybaord in sight. This demo ALWAYS gets good reviews.... This reminds me ao another story. I was talking with a young colleague a few years ago, e must have been in his early twenties. We were talking about old machines and his main question was : "How DID you use thos old machine without screens and keyboards?". And this from a software engineer! -- hbp From vance at neurotica.com Tue May 27 07:02:44 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Brian Chase wrote: > Checking in my local phone books, there look to be about a dozen or so > places still in business around the west side of Los Angeles. There is > url for one place: > > > > Given the long history and the number of lawyers out here, I'm guessing > there will still be a need for typewriter repair shops for a number of > years. There's only one left in New York City. There are a bunch more in Jersey and some in Westchester and Long Island, but only one in the city. Peace... Sridhar From vassilip at dsl.cis.upenn.edu Tue May 27 07:03:08 2003 From: vassilip at dsl.cis.upenn.edu (vassilip@dsl.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Revengish URL Message-ID: <200305250549.h4P5njY2015538@codex.cis.upenn.edu> This reminds me of a true story regarding a BBC microcomputer. This was in the early 80s when a company called Torch produced an auxiluary processor for the BBC (I think so that it could run CP/M programs). Anyway the Torch was an external box that contained its own PSU and connected via a ribbon cable with the BBC micro, which served as the keyboard/display peripheral for the Torch. Early BBCs had problems with their own PSU (it overheated), so the Torch people removed the PSU from the BBC and used another cable to supply power *to* the BBC from the Torch box. Unfortunately, they used a cable that looked like a power cable. So when the BBC + Torch arrived, the genious who was responsible for assembling the kit, promptly added a mains plug to the power cable and plugged it in, feeding 240V AC to the +5 and +12V rails. I looked at that mainboard afterwards and a lot of tracks had melted! **vp From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 27 07:03:30 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: DEC AlphaServer 1200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Fred N. van Kempen > Sent: 24 May 2003 00:13 > To: Classic Computer > Subject: DEC AlphaServer 1200 > > > Hi All, > > Long time no see.. almost had to leave the hobby (as > well, from what I've read... be safe, Jeff) but I am > back. > > And things are looking up... I got a DEC AlphaServer > (model 1200, EV56/533-4) with a load of RAM and disks, > on which I want to install Tru64. > > Does anyone have the ECU diskette(s) for this beast? > > A pointer to a more recent version of T64 (I have a > 5.0 kit) would be appreciated, too.. The ECU diskettes are on the website: ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/as1200.html Can't help with a later version of Tru64 though.... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From vance at neurotica.com Tue May 27 07:03:53 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: <003401c322cb$5f63fe40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=206563&convertTo=USD > > A million for just 33? That's $33 thousand each. Sounds like Gvt. Fin. > mumbo-jumbo to me. Those machines couldn'tve cost $10K retail. Selectrics cost up to $12K retail, but with the government, you never know. Peace... Sridhar From hansp at citem.org Tue May 27 07:04:16 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED10021.7010704@citem.org> > I'd really like to design and build a PDP-8 clone, since the real > ones command such hefty prices on eBay. I've mostly given up on > getting my own 8/F or 8/M. See this book for a discussion of the design of a TTL PDP-8 : "The art of Digital Design" (An introduction to Top-Down Design) second edition Franklin P. Prosser David E. Winkel ISBN 0-13-046673-5 -- hbp From vance at neurotica.com Tue May 27 07:04:39 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: <000601c322eb$e14e7460$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: Neato! Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 25 May 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >VAX/11/751? > > Rackmount VAX-11/750. > Doesn't get mentioned very much. > > -- > > --------------- > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From francois at auradon.com Tue May 27 07:05:03 2003 From: francois at auradon.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Just bragging :) Message-ID: <000b01c32319$1ab61140$0264640a@auradon.com> Went to a flea market today and I picked up and HP 29C in excellent condition for $2.00 That's it but I just had to brag so there :) Thank you Francois From wrb at wrbuckley.com Tue May 27 07:05:27 2003 From: wrb at wrbuckley.com (William R. Buckley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <8A4EF73B-8F1E-11D7-BFC1-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Message-ID: <00fd01c32335$9c2eaf90$992cfea9@softnerdhqpo000> Steve Leach said: > If you could humor my electronic ignorance, what exactly > is a tantalum cap and how does it differ from a normal > capacitor? I was never before aware that there could be > more to a capacitor than plates (or foil) and an > electrolyte. How can a capacitor have a polarity? Not an electrolyte, an insulator. It is the inability to conduct electrons which gives the capacitor its ability to collect electrons. Electrolytes, in general, are ionic compounds. Consider the electrolytes of sports drinks. A good number of salts constitute the valuable components of sports drinks. When dissolved in water, these salts become the electrolytes. Now, by being ionic, these electrolytes are well suited to the conduction of electron flow. This is most definately not the kind of behavior which you wish to obtain from a capacitor. William R. Buckley From bglazar at hotmail.com Tue May 27 07:05:50 2003 From: bglazar at hotmail.com (Bo{tjan Gla`ar) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: Toshiba T1200 battery pack Message-ID: >What is the polarity of the 12V DC connector on the back of the machine? The middle pin is positive and is commond to battery connector. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From SRATPHESSA at aol.com Tue May 27 07:06:13 2003 From: SRATPHESSA at aol.com (SRATPHESSA@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:53 2005 Subject: zenith model ZFL-184-01 LAP TOP Message-ID: <112.23a2819e.2c0378d5@aol.com> is it any good From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 27 07:06:38 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:54 2005 Subject: Enterprise 64 and 128 In-Reply-To: <000401c32392$1e6d41e0$9600a8c0@Luis> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Luis G?mez > Sent: 26 May 2003 15:21 > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Enterprise 64 and 128 > > > Is there a service manual for Enterprise 64/128? I don't think enough were sold to give anyone any time to write one :o) Seems like all the docs I've got here are already on the Enterprise Repository along with your (I assume it's you) ROM images. If I ever get a ROM reader (and the ROMs have survived) I can add a few more like BASIC 2.1, LISP, ASMON, EXOS V2 and V2.1 and a couple of intriguing ones - HARDDISK V1.1A and EXDOS-CPM. > Somebody know if is usual problems with Dave and/or Nick? To be honest I've never come across a dead one, and so far I've come across 7 or 8 of them. What's it not doing? > Another question. Do you know if there is some kind of jumper to > set memory to 64Kb or 128Kb? I doubt it - weren't they 2 different boards? cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From tdodds at attglobal.net Tue May 27 07:07:03 2003 From: tdodds at attglobal.net (Thomas Dodds) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:54 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4052 Message-ID: Hello, I know that your request is over six months old, so you may no longer be interested. Did you find the information you need on the 4052? I have a 1981 Tektronix catalog that has a one-page summary of the characteristics of this device. Let me know if it is useful to you and I will send you a scanned copy. Tom Dodds 869 Milwaukee St. Denver, Colorado 80206 Info request : Tek 4052 Hans B Pufal cctech@classiccmp.org Tue Oct 8 10:51:19 2002 Previous message: OSI disk basic disk Next message: scsi drive + misc. other stuff (free pentium machines & 10 year rule/windows) Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- We are exhibiting a Tektronix 4052 computer and I am looking for some info on the beastie: Year of introduction Price at introduction Memory size Processor Clock frequency Tape capacity Tape speed Screen resolution The web seems somewhat reluctant to divulge this info and I'd appreciate your help. Regards, -- Hans B Pufal From allain at panix.com Tue May 27 08:23:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:54 2005 Subject: Computer-tourism in Manhattan References: Message-ID: <001401c32452$dc9b7680$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> My impression is that the devastation that was the World Trade Center took out NYC's second-hand electronics marketplace. That is, when the WTC was put IN, in the 70's, they took down all the buildings that housed the radio parts sellers. As for the IBM museum, I saw its incarnation in a Westchester warehouse in 1991, it's a Great collection, but well out of NYC even then. A joke, son: Maybe your best bet is to find a 3rd rate electronics store passing off a 1981 PC as "new". (Hard to get past that $1,100 pricetag though ) Someone else? John A. From mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com Tue May 27 08:59:00 2003 From: mail.list at analog-and-digital-solutions.com (Mail List) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:54 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <3ED0518E.4030702@citem.org> References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030527094327.00a41070@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com> Hans, That is interesting. What school do you teach at? I used to teach college accredited courses in CAD/CAM and CNC Machine Programming, Set Up, and Operation to the US Navy until the contract ran out. I also had to teach basic trig, and basic computer operation skills, etc. as part of the course, because the students had virtually zero background in the subject arena. All in three weeks for the CAD/CAM and five weeks for the CNC courses too. It was a shame that they didn't do any preliminary training because it was so much to cover in so short a time, especially since training time was often interrupted by shipboard drills, GQ ( General Quarters ), REFTRA ( Refresher Training ), and other naval requirements, ie. gun shoot training, trips to medical, shop or shipboard picnics, etc. Best Regards At 07:15 AM 5/25/03 +0200, you wrote: >TeoZ wrote: > >>Put somebody that only knows a keyboard, mouse, and >>supervga screen in front of a IMSAI 8080 and they wont know what to do. > >No, but they can learn. I do EXACTLY that with a PDP-8/e cpu I drag around >to show at school exhibitions. The first question I get, of course, is >where is the screen and keyboard. I teach the kids binary, than, with the >aid of a small program left in the core we calculate the mean of a >sequence of numbers entered in binary. And not a screen or keybaord in >sight. This demo ALWAYS gets good reviews.... > >This reminds me ao another story. I was talking with a young colleague a >few years ago, e must have been in his early twenties. We were talking >about old machines and his main question was : "How DID you use thos old >machine without screens and keyboards?". And this from a software engineer! > > -- hbp From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Tue May 27 09:21:00 2003 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:54 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU References: Message-ID: <3ED3733F.4070008@Vishay.com> Jochen, >>- one H785 battery backup regulator module >>- one H745 -15 PSU module >>- two H7441 +5V PSU modules the latter are 32A regulators, right? - If so, and particularly if part of the box is from a different source, you may want to make sure you have the later revision of the power distribution gear. The older version might let out some magic smoke: it was designed for the (IIRC) H744 brick (25A max.). When the old distribution is used with the later, stronger H7441, and with a stuffed backplane, it can get overloaded. I may be able to look up the critical part numbers if you cannot find them elsewhere. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 10:35:00 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:54 2005 Subject: QBUS board ID time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost> Got given a couple of "Dyna 5" BA23-size QBUS enclosures a bit ago - a bit tatty (rusted & dirty, must try to get a sandblaster or something to see if they can be rescued) just looking through the cards, can't ID this one yet : dual height QBUS Baydel (http://www.baydel.com) logo on the handles, "Baydel ltd" "CCK 2789" "B01079 iss4 C1984 CTS-11" on the board. 50 pin (2*25) front connector (what's the proper name for these ribbon cable IDC connectors/plugs? Berg? other?) 1 AM2901, 2 off AM2910, 6 off AM27C291. 1 62256 (32k*8 SRAM I think), some TTL, DEC interface & PAL DIPs, 16MHz rock. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 27 11:05:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies In-Reply-To: <001f01c32406$325bda30$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote.... > >> It's a Televideo model. > > I have two of these. Identical to the one in the picture. One says > Televideo, one says Lier Siegler. I always thought the Televideo was the > rebadged one. Weird. I would be inclined to agree with your assessment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 27 11:09:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: zenith model ZFL-184-01 LAP TOP In-Reply-To: <112.23a2819e.2c0378d5@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 2003 SRATPHESSA@aol.com wrote: > is it any good maybe -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From arcarlini at iee.org Tue May 27 12:20:01 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: DEC AlphaServer 1200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c32474$2f981c50$5b01a8c0@athlon> > The ECU diskettes are on the website: > >ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/as1200.html Where precisely? I see firmware updates, but that's not what the ECU is. IIRC the ECU stuff is from a 3rd party and HP cannot give it away (as they don't own it). So to get an ECU diskette you need to purchase an OS distribution (which includes one). So if you have one, hang on to it. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 27 12:46:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: QBUS board ID time In-Reply-To: "Greg Elkin" "QBUS board ID time" (May 27, 16:34) References: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost> Message-ID: <10305271844.ZM5886@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 27, 16:34, Greg Elkin wrote: > Got given a couple of "Dyna 5" BA23-size QBUS enclosures a bit ago - > a bit tatty (rusted & dirty, must try to get a sandblaster or > something to see if they can be rescued) > just looking through the cards, can't ID this one yet : > > > dual height QBUS > Baydel (http://www.baydel.com) logo on the handles, "Baydel ltd" "CCK > 2789" "B01079 iss4 C1984 CTS-11" on the board. > Any ideas? Didn't turn anything usefull up on Google, I've emailed > Baydel support for a laugh... Baydel were (are?) latterly quite well known for RAID systems; prior to that they made (amongst other things) QBus floppy controllers, to connect to SA800/850 drives. I have a couple of single-density ones that emulate an RXV11 or a pair of RXV11s. I'd guess this board is an emulation of an RXV21, to connect to SA800/850 drives. Power it up, and see if it responds to the RXV21 addresses. BTW, I found Baydel quite helpful when I wanted some information about mine (labelled F11-311) -- but that was a decade ago and I don't know if the same technical staff will still be there. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 27 12:46:43 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: Hans B Pufal "Re: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in" (May 25, 7:15) References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <3ED0518E.4030702@citem.org> Message-ID: <10305271839.ZM5883@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 7:15, Hans B Pufal wrote: > No, but they can learn. I do EXACTLY that with a PDP-8/e cpu I drag > around to show at school exhibitions. The first question I get, of > course, is where is the screen and keyboard. I teach the kids binary, > than, with the aid of a small program left in the core we calculate the > mean of a sequence of numbers entered in binary. And not a screen or > keybaord in sight. This demo ALWAYS gets good reviews.... Exactly what I did with my 8-year-old niece at Christmas. She's really into "sums" and arithmetic at the moment, so when I wanted to play with my 8/E, I taught her a little about binary, showed her how to read octal off the switches and lights, and we added some numbers. She loved it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 27 12:47:05 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: "William R. Buckley" "RE: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!!" (May 25, 20:19) References: <00fd01c32335$9c2eaf90$992cfea9@softnerdhqpo000> Message-ID: <10305271834.ZM5880@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 20:19, William R. Buckley wrote: > Steve Leach said: > > > If you could humor my electronic ignorance, what exactly > > is a tantalum cap and how does it differ from a normal > > capacitor? I was never before aware that there could be > > more to a capacitor than plates (or foil) and an > > electrolyte. How can a capacitor have a polarity? > > Not an electrolyte, an insulator. It is the inability to > conduct electrons which gives the capacitor its ability to > collect electrons. > [...] Now, by being ionic, these electrolytes > are well suited to the conduction of electron flow. This > is most definately not the kind of behavior which you wish > to obtain from a capacitor. Not from a capacitor as a whole, but if you look inside the "black box"... The discussion was about electrolytic capacitors. Of course they have an insulator (the oxide on the aluminium foil anode) but they also have an electrolyte (which is the cathode), and indeed wouldn't (don't) work without it. It's the ability of the electrodes to conduct electrons that give the capacitor its ability to store them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 27 13:03:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <3ED3733F.4070008@Vishay.com>; from Andreas.Freiherr@Vishay.com on Tue, May 27, 2003 at 16:16:31 CEST References: <3ED3733F.4070008@Vishay.com> Message-ID: <20030527194301.I245564@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.27 16:16 Andreas Freiherr wrote: > >>- two H7441 +5V PSU modules > the latter are 32A regulators, right? Yes. > If so, and particularly if part > of the box is from a different source, I am sure that all parts come from the same machine. The previous owner disassembled it in the attempt to repair it. He faild and stored the parts in his garage some years ago. He is cleening up this garage during the past months and every time he comes acros a PDP-11 part he pushes it in my direction... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue May 27 13:03:51 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Openvms Alpha 3.0 kits now available In-Reply-To: <099701c3222f$e8301b60$0200a8c0@cosmo> Message-ID: <20030527180223.14221.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stuart Johnson wrote: > For those looking for up-to-date VMS media for you Classic (or other) > Alpha's, > I just noticed that Montgar has the OpenVMS Alpha 3.0 kits available. > Finally! > > For reference, the URL is: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html Thanks for the tip! My DEC4000-710 will be much happier! -ethan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From sipke at wxs.nl Tue May 27 13:19:00 2003 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <017601c3247c$612d28c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hi, What is the official current subscriptionprocedure to subcribe to the cctalk list ? Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 27 13:23:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: QBUS board ID time In-Reply-To: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost>; from ClassicComputers@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk on Tue, May 27, 2003 at 17:34:22 CEST References: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost> Message-ID: <20030527201817.K245564@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.27 17:34 Greg Elkin wrote: > Got given a couple of "Dyna 5" BA23-size QBUS enclosures a bit ago - > a bit tatty (rusted & dirty, must try to get a sandblaster or > something to see if they can be rescued) Sand-blasting is great. I applied this to some parts of a rusted PDP-11/34A, repainted them, looks like new. Reminds me. I still haven't sand-blasted the card cage... > dual height QBUS > Baydel (http://www.baydel.com) logo on the handles, Can you put it into a KA650 / MV III / MV 3500 or better machine and do a show qbus on the ">>>" prompt? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From wonko at 4amlunch.net Tue May 27 13:28:00 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: simh help? Message-ID: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> where do i get simh help? i'm trying to install VMS on a simh instance, and it doesn't seem to want to play nice. where do i get help for simh? the documentation is slim, and there seems to be no mailing list. help? -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 27 13:28:24 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Subscription References: <017601c3247c$612d28c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <006201c3247d$a82ded80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> For Sipke (and the rest as a refresher).... See http://www.classiccmp.org/lists.html and you can do it there online. You can also send an email to cctalk-request@classiccmp.org with a subject of "subscribe" and a body of "subscribe". I never remeber which one it looks for, but if you do both subject and body, it'll always work. Regards, Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: Subscription > Hi, > > What is the official current subscriptionprocedure > to subcribe to the cctalk list ? > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------------- From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Tue May 27 14:33:01 2003 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> Message-ID: I've had pretty good success in the comp.os.vms newsgroup with simh questions in the past. There seems to be a pretty active VMS-on-simh community frequenting there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hechinger" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:11 PM Subject: simh help? > where do i get simh help? i'm trying to install VMS on a simh instance, and > it doesn't seem to want to play nice. where do i get help for simh? the > documentation is slim, and there seems to be no mailing list. > > help? > > -brian > -- > "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that oo." -Bender From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue May 27 15:36:01 2003 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Revengish URL References: <200305250549.h4P5njY2015538@codex.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3ED3CCA1.5090400@gifford.co.uk> vassilip@dsl.cis.upenn.edu wrote: > So when the BBC + Torch arrived, the genious who was responsible for > assembling the kit, promptly added a mains plug to the power cable > and plugged it in, feeding 240V AC to the +5 and +12V rails. Same thing happened at my Uni when one of the Prime operators took home a BBC for the holidays. She had an external disk drive for it, that plugged into the BBC's power underneath the machine (not at all obvious). So, she went ahead and fitted a mains plug to the three-core cable that fed the drive. Usual release of magic smoke... -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From kth at srv.net Tue May 27 15:40:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> Message-ID: <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> Brian Hechinger wrote: >where do i get simh help? i'm trying to install VMS on a simh instance, and >it doesn't seem to want to play nice. where do i get help for simh? the >documentation is slim, and there seems to be no mailing list. > > > Depends on what problem you are having, what version of simh you are using, and what OS you are running it on. I can run VMS in simh under Linux without any problems. Haven't used it under Windows though. From ssj152 at charter.net Tue May 27 15:55:00 2003 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies References: Message-ID: <003801c32491$f095c1b0$0200a8c0@cosmo> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Antonio Carlini" Cc: Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: RE: More Gummint surplus goodies > Neato! > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Sun, 25 May 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > >VAX/11/751? > > > > Rackmount VAX-11/750. > > Doesn't get mentioned very much. > > > > -- > > > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org I worked on an 11/751 one time under a Guv'mint contract. It was mounted in a twin engine turboprop with some other fancy equipment (array processors, etc.) and was flown regularly. This was the first I knew that VAXen could be flown! While I was working on the contract I was also shown the proverbial $800 toilet seat (there was one in the plane's bathroom), if you can remember that far back. Stuart Johnson From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue May 27 15:56:00 2003 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? Message-ID: Subject: RE: Where have all the Selectrics gone? Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:36:49 -0400 Reply-To: cctech@classiccmp.org >Are these based on a Selectric? >http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=206563&convertTo=USD Yes!!!! Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Good catch! You can tell they're the 'I/O Selectric' by the extra-deep chassis, compared with a standard Selectric typewriter... no idea what interface they might be, but what the hell... Guess it's a bid on all 35 of them, or none at all... anyone else in with me for some? Mike http://www.corestore.org From allain at panix.com Tue May 27 16:24:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: More Gummint surplus goodies References: <003801c32491$f095c1b0$0200a8c0@cosmo> Message-ID: <007301c32496$048623a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > This was the first I knew that VAXen could be flown! Not only that but I believe that Raytheon would rebuild Vaxes from the circuit description using advanced SMD and hybrid chips to make them something like 1/4 the size and weight of the non-gov. models. John A. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue May 27 17:02:01 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: QBUS board ID time In-Reply-To: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030527225038.031ecc90@pop.freeserve.net> At 16:34 27/05/2003 +0100, Greg Elkin wrote: >dual height QBUS >Baydel (http://www.baydel.com) logo on the handles, "Baydel ltd" "CCK >2789" "B01079 iss4 C1984 CTS-11" on the board. No idea, I'm afraid, but reminds me - I used to have *two* complete Baydel mfr'd PDP11 clone machines kicking around at the office for a time, until my boss took them to the *tip* whilst I wasn't looking one day a couple of years ago :-( AFAIKR Baydel had their own versions of pretty much all the cards in the box bar CPU.. There is a chance we may still have some docs kicking about at the office - will try and have a hunt next time I'm in there for any length of time. (Stuck on site at the moment trying to sort out a massive mix of Cat 4 and Cat 5 cabling where previous occupier of building simply cut the lot off to remove the patch cabinets [and microvax - older sockets all have a DIGITAL logo emblazoned on them]) From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue May 27 17:11:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in Message-ID: <200305272210.PAA10163@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > >> different today, how can people relate to this? While there are still a few >> people who know how to make a horseshoe at a blacksmiths there will be >> nobody who knows how to run the early mainframes in 50 years, things are > >Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be >learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern >machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few >people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older >machines are so different. > >-tony > Hi I think these older machines are easier to work on. Things are more exposed and excessable. Most of the newer machines one has today are not even as repairable( motherboard fails, swap out motherboard! ). Dwight From classiccmp at crash.com Tue May 27 17:12:00 2003 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Gummint VAXen (was Re: More gummint surplus goodies) Message-ID: <200305272211.h4RMAsRS010681@io.crash.com> John Allain wrote: . > Not only that but I believe that Raytheon would rebuild Vaxes > from the circuit description using advanced SMD and hybrid > chips to make them something like 1/4 the size and weight > of the non-gov. models. Wow - now that would be something to add to the collection! Does anybody on the list want to confess to owning such a beastie? If so, please, don't be cruel - post a link to some pictures. --Steve. smj(at)spamfree.crash.com (lose spamfree to get through, m'kay?) From patrick at evocative.com Tue May 27 17:17:00 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Where have all the Selectrics gone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Are these based on a Selectric? > >http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=206563&convertTo=USD > > Yes!!!! Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Good catch! Has anyone done the math here, just for a laugh? There are quantity 33 at an acquisition value of $1,074,150. That means these have a per-unit acquisition value of $32,550 each. Our tax dollars at work! I'm typing this from floor; I haven't quite recovered enough strength to make it back into my chair. ;-) --Patrick From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 27 17:19:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Mon, May 26, 2003 at 23:47:56 CEST References: <20030526095119.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20030528001329.O245564@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.26 23:47 Tony Duell wrote: > There are several good references on SMPSU design I should feed google... ;-) > (the section in 'The Art of > Electronics' 2nd edition is a good staring point), Unfortunately I don't own this book. When I tried to order it from .de, the cost was prohibitive. > and these DEC PSU > bricks are a pretty standard step-down regualtor circuit. Well, it looks like the H7441 has some funky design tricks. > The only unconvention feature is that the controller is > a 723 chip, not a special SMPSU chip. The H745 has a 723, the H7441 has two OPAs and two NE555. The H745 looks quite simple and I think I understand what the different parts do, but the H7441??? One OPA seams to do some over current protection, one the voltage regulation. So the NE555 are doing the ON / OFF timing??? Have to dig deeper into that... Unfortunately it doesn't seam as simple as the SGI Indigo2 PSU repair I did today. I had a close look at the PCBs of the PSU and saw electrolyte... The machine seams to run stable again, now that I replaced the electrolyte capacitor in question. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:01:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <3ED04E3C.3050805@citem.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 25, 3 07:01:48 am Message-ID: > Did you suggest that they check the date code on all the other cards ;-) NO, I gave up with them, and decided I'd rather give these flip-chips to people who actually _wanted_ them :-). > > I doubt it would destroy the machine in the sense that it could no longer > > be used as an exhibit, or indeed that it could no longer be restored > > again. In that sense, a machine that had been restored and then failed > > during the museum demonstration is no different to a machine that's never > > been restored. > > An makes the demonstration closer to real life when machines DID break > down. I even imagine demonstrations of engineers fixing and testing the Have you tried doing fault-tracing when there are clueless people watching you, and asking why you're doing what you're doing? I tried it a few times. It was OK on obvious faults when you know what to check, etc, but downright painful on anything obscure. > machines, a regular occurrence. Today you simply go aout an buy a new > one :-( Well, you might, but I certainly don't. Component-level repair is alive and well round here... > > Rubbish!. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these skills can't be > > learnt? I would claim that anybody who _truely_ understood a modern > > machine would have no problems on an older one. The fact that very few > > people understand modern computers is the problem, not that the older > > machines are so different. > > Precisely! and I see the older machines as offering a path towards > better understanding. Perhaps that's why modern machines don't worry me too much. Or actually, it's why they _do_ worry me. I want to diagnose and repair them like I repair my PDPs, but alas I can't get the neceessary information and parts to do so. Oh well... Still, becasue I learnt to fix PDP11s (after I learnt to fix the P850..), there's not much digital stuff around the frightens me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:01:34 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Where have all the Termiprinters (was Selectrics) gone? In-Reply-To: <006d01c3241f$977c7cd0$0100a8c0@athlon> from "Dave Brown" at May 27, 3 07:14:18 pm Message-ID: > Tony-- The ROs I had were not all 'factory' --several were KSRs and simply > had the keyboards removed. > I'll have a look for those displays anyway and let you know. I guess what I really need to do it properly is one display digit module and the little 9 pin connecotr (looks like a tiny version of a DE9, made in grey plastic) that it fits into. But I don't _need_ this -- the LED kludge works well enough... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:01:58 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <3ED04FF7.6090106@citem.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 25, 3 07:09:11 am Message-ID: > And worse to the categorisation and descritpion. We are in the process > of inventorying our collection, the PDP-9 is described as "a cabinet xx > cm tall, xx cm wide, xx cm deep with orange and black panels and an > operator console". That neatly describes a museums view of a PDP-9 !! > I am currently in a battle royal to get this point of view chamged. Argh!! I knew I disliked most museums for a good reason :-)... This is simply rediculous. A PDP9 is a PDP9 no matter what cabinet it's installed in, of even if it's jsut loose backplanes and PSUs... Mind you, I once saw a list of valves (vacuum tubes) that one museum was offering to another. The list had a column of 'condition'. No, it didn't give the emission and gm figures. It didn't even say if the heater was continous, and the getter silver (not white, which would indicate air had leaked into the valve). No, it described how clean the glass was... > I recently recoverd an entire PDP-9 OS thought long lost from three > DECtapes found in a batch of over 100. Had "policy" been applied at > least 90 of those tapes would have been trashed on the grounds that "we > already have ten of those". The obvious extension of this is that art galleries should throw out all but 10 of their paintains on the ground that they 'already have 10 pieces of canvas with paint on them' :-)... And that libraries only need to keep 10 books ('we already have 10 sets of bound pieces of paper with ink on them'). Somebody is going to have to educate museum curators about the importance and meaning of technical and computer artefacts... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:03:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: <3ED3CCA1.5090400@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 27, 3 09:37:53 pm Message-ID: > vassilip@dsl.cis.upenn.edu wrote: > > So when the BBC + Torch arrived, the genious who was responsible for > > assembling the kit, promptly added a mains plug to the power cable > > and plugged it in, feeding 240V AC to the +5 and +12V rails. > > Same thing happened at my Uni when one of the Prime operators took > home a BBC for the holidays. She had an external disk drive for it, > that plugged into the BBC's power underneath the machine (not at > all obvious). So, she went ahead and fitted a mains plug to the > three-core cable that fed the drive. Usual release of magic smoke... SOmewhat off-topic, but I once had to repair an IR spectrophotometer that used a Bulgin 5A connector (conventionally a mains connector) for the chart recorder signal output. Of course the obvious happened, somebody plugged a mains lead in there. Fortunately, the amplifier/control unit was almost entirely valved, and the chart recorder signal came from a cathode follower. The only thing to get cooked was the cathode resistor... I am told that some Pye hi-fi amplifiers (mono, of course, and possibly based on the Williamson design) used _identical_ Bulgin connectors for the mains and speaker connections. Cross those over, and you blew fuses and the output transformer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:03:35 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... In-Reply-To: <14f81cf94b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 27, 3 11:22:05 am Message-ID: > Hi, > I've just finished fixing the Ace's PCB using wire-wrap wire. All the > broken tracks I've managed to find have been fixed and all the damaged > through-hole plating has been repaired. Except there's one problem. The Ace > *still* won't boot to the FORTH interpreter. Argh!. There aren't that many chips in the machine... > There is a load of garbage on the display - this seems to change while the Garbage as in random dot patterns, or garbage as in characters? Is it loading the character generator at all? > machine is running. The power consumption of the board - CPU and all - is > around 800mA (according to the crappy meter on my Farnell 1A bench PSU). I've DOesn't sound excessive... > got the output on the PSU set to 9V, no current limit. > Does anyone here have a logic analyser or microprocessor debugger that I > could borrow for a few days? I've got two scopes (a Tek 466 and a Gould Where are you in the country? I am not lending out any of my test gear (I depend on it too much!), but if it's physcially possible for us to get close together, I can have a quick look and wave some probes over it... > OS1100) and a Fluke 25 multimeter, but that's about it in terms of test > equipment. > Alternatively, does anyone know if a diagnostic ROM exists for the Ace? > Something that would replace ROM A and just load the video/font RAM with the > usual Ace character set would be very handy. I believe the normal ROMs do that early on anyway.... I've never heard of a diagnostic ROM for the ACE > The 2114Ls I'm using appear to be OK, but they draw a lot of current - in > the region of 75 to 100mA each. YEs, they do eat current... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:03:58 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! In-Reply-To: <10305271834.ZM5880@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Peter Turnbull" at May 27, 3 06:34:26 pm Message-ID: > box"... The discussion was about electrolytic capacitors. Of course > they have an insulator (the oxide on the aluminium foil anode) but they > also have an electrolyte (which is the cathode), and indeed wouldn't I've met 'engineers' (who darn well should know better) who thought the electrolyte was the dielectric (insulator) ! I think I've even seen this in print somwehre (but I can't remember which useless book or magazine it was in). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:09:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030528001329.O245564@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 28, 3 00:13:29 am Message-ID: > > (the section in 'The Art of=20 > > Electronics' 2nd edition is a good staring point),=20 > Unfortunately I don't own this book. When I tried to order it from .de, > the cost was prohibitive.=20 It's not cheap in the UK (about \pounds 40, I think), but it is _good_. I think it's worth the money. Of course I don't know what price you were quoted... > > > and these DEC PSU=20 > > bricks are a pretty standard step-down regualtor circuit. > Well, it looks like the H7441 has some funky design tricks.=20 Oh, the H7441. For some reason I assumed you had standard H744 5V 25A regulators. Those also use the 723. > > > The only unconvention feature is that the controller is=20 > > a 723 chip, not a special SMPSU chip.=20 > The H745 has a 723, the H7441 has two OPAs and two NE555. The H745 looks > quite simple and I think I understand what the different parts do, but > the H7441??? One OPA seams to do some over current protection, one the > voltage regulation. So the NE555 are doing the ON / OFF timing??? Have > to dig deeper into that...=20 Probably one 555 is an oscillator, the other is the pulse-width modulator or something. I don't have the H7441 printset to hand. But to be honest, problems with the control circuitry are very uncommon in these bricks (and indeed in SMPSUs in general) -- most of the problems are in the power-handling part. > > Unfortunately it doesn't seam as simple as the SGI Indigo2 PSU repair I > did today. I had a close look at the PCBs of the PSU and saw > electrolyte... The machine seams to run stable again, now that I As I said, most SMPSU faults are capacitors or power transistors :-) > replaced the electrolyte capacitor in question. :-)=20 -tony From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue May 27 18:28:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: !HELP!! ALTAIR BLEW SMOKE!!! Message-ID: <200305272326.QAA10202@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Peter Turnbull" ---snip--- > >Not from a capacitor as a whole, but if you look inside the "black >box"... The discussion was about electrolytic capacitors. Of course >they have an insulator (the oxide on the aluminium foil anode) but they >also have an electrolyte (which is the cathode), and indeed wouldn't >(don't) work without it. It's the ability of the electrodes to conduct >electrons that give the capacitor its ability to store them. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull The other trick of the electrolytic is that the aluminum is slightly etched first before forming. This greatly increases the surface area and gives a higher capacitance per square inch of foil. I have a radio that was made in the 50's. I brought the capacitors in it up slowly. I've checked them on my bridge and they are all above 45% of the labeled value. The radio works fine. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Tue May 27 18:32:00 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: DEC Modules F/A at SYI Message-ID: <3ED3F55C.EA2C74FC@rain.org> I've just listed some M series modules and a Quad Extender Board over at Sellyouritem.com. The URL for the classic computer stuff is at: http://www.sellyouritem.com/ListAuctions.html?CategoryID=1497 These are set for a three day auction to give listmembers a chance at them. I plan on listing about a dozen+ items a day, so it might be worthwhile to check over there occassionally. We've had some discussion about First Come/First Serve, and that basically means whoever lives at their computer has the best shot at anything offered to the list. I think this might be a fairer way of doing things without giving the whole world a chance at stuff. SYI has *NO* listing fees, and FVFs are slightly less than on Ebay. My feeling is that a three day auction gives everyone on the list a chance to look at the stuff, and bid if they are interested. ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From univac2 at earthlink.net Tue May 27 19:14:01 2003 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks Message-ID: Well, I found someone with a Tandy 6000 keyboard to sell and it should be on it's way to me tomorrow. Unfortunately, when it gets here, I will have nothing to use it for, as I accidentally wiped XENIX completely off my 6000's internal hard disk while trying to format a secondary *external* hard disk. I will never again assume that a program named 'hdinit' will actually ask me *which* disk to erase, nor that it will ask for *ANY* kind of confirmation before wiping the internal hard disk... So I am now in the market for some Tandy XENIX distribution disks for version 3.whatever. I don't know the exact version number of the OS that was for the 6000 specifically. Also, should anyone have the Multiuser BASIC disks, or Profile for XENIX disks, those were lost as well... I didn't have any of the original disks for anything dealing with the 6000. I'd also like to get my hands on something my system never had, whose absence was very noticeable - the XENIX Development System, which contains things like the C compiler, mail, and many other things I don't consider optional in a UNIX-based system. Any help is greatly appreciated... -- Owen Robertson From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 27 19:18:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: Revengish URL In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: Revengish URL" (May 27, 21:37) References: <200305250549.h4P5njY2015538@codex.cis.upenn.edu> <3ED3CCA1.5090400@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <10305280107.ZM20093@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 27, 21:37, John Honniball wrote: > vassilip@dsl.cis.upenn.edu wrote: > > So when the BBC + Torch arrived, the genious who was responsible for > > assembling the kit, promptly added a mains plug to the power cable > > and plugged it in, feeding 240V AC to the +5 and +12V rails. > > Same thing happened at my Uni when one of the Prime operators took > home a BBC for the holidays. She had an external disk drive for it, > that plugged into the BBC's power underneath the machine (not at > all obvious). So, she went ahead and fitted a mains plug to the > three-core cable that fed the drive. Usual release of magic smoke... Ah, yes, that would be one of those drives suplied by a company who figured that you don't really need two 0V lines, and 3-core mains flex is cheap. I can add another to the "240-into-5 doesn't go" list. I ran the repair and engineering department for a large Acorn dealer/distributor. One Saturday, a customer with his son bought a BBC B, Torch Z80 with disk pack, and a high-res Microvitec monitor; well over UKP1000 in those days. He was back on the Monday, looking very sad. His son had connected everything together before finding that the "mains plug" didn't fit. When he changed it, the fuse blew, so he replaced it and tried again :-( He was very nice about it, quite philosophical, and so we tried quite hard to rescue what we could, and find second-hand parts. We salvaged one of the two drives. We repaired the monitor. We found a spare BBC B board -- the original was deemed unrepairable. The disk pack PSU was a write-off, but we got the original Beeb PSU back from the shop. The Z80 board didn't look healthy, and he let us keep that too. Eventually, we stripped every IC and some other damaged parts off the board, fitted sockets everywhere, repaired several tracks with quite a lot of wire-wrap wire and epoxy, and it became a test bed. The Z80 got similar treatment, except it didn't need track repairs, and we turned it over to a teenager who was with us for work experience. We thought it would be good (de)soldering practice. He was delighted when he ended up with a clean board, and even more so when the fully-socketed version worked at the the end of it, so I suppose some good came of it all -- he'd apparently been something of a problem to the college tutors before he discovered there was something he could actually achieve. Those Torch Z80's were a royal pain. After that incident, we told the shops not to take out or replace the BBC supply under any circumstances, and eventually Torch stopped the practice of replacing the original PSU. The Beeb SMPSU was perfectly capable of running a fully-expanded machine with a Torch processor, so using Torch's rather inferior (but more powerful) unit was not a good idea. The Torch Z80 board is about Eurocard size, fitted with a short 40-way ribbon cable, and was supposed to be mounted in the lid of the BBC B, using four PCB mounts of the type that have self-adhesive pads. They used to fall off after a while. Now you might think that's just irritating (it's certainly awkward to fit correctly) but it's more than that. When it falls, it tends to short things out. Unfortunately, the regulation on Torch PSUs is very poor when they crowbar, and when the 5V rail comes back after it's shut down, it tends to overshoot -- by about 4 volts, according to our scope. TTL doesn't like 9V. I've seen at least two Beebs destroyed that way. One of them looked fine, but didn't work -- something of a puzzle, as the owner had replaced the original Acorn PSU and we didn't know he had been using the Torch one. It just went "tick-tick-tick", as they do when they're shorted, or as in this case, detect over-current. So we put it on a bench supply, thinking either to blow off a faulty capacitor or maybe find a hot chip. No, but it drew 9 amps (a Beeb usually takes about two) and after a little while it was obvious several LS TTL chips were cooking. So we removed them. Back on the PSU, still several amps over normal. A few more hot chips after a short while. And so it went on, until all that was left was the NMOS (all of which still worked). Another expensive repair. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue May 27 20:11:01 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: OT? Supera and Diamond Multimedia support Message-ID: I guess this might be slightly OT, and maybe a little bit of a rant, though lots of Diamond products are easily 10 years old or older... I just found out today that the massive archive of drivers and firmware that was on the the Diamond ftp server [ftp://ftp.diamondmm.com/] is gone. I didn't have the bandwidth to mirror it, but I sure hope someone here got a copy when I recommended months back (Modem/Supra thread) that someone archive it. The support page for Diamond products [http://www.diamondmm.com/support/diamond/] formerly contained links to files on the ftp server. It now has the following posted: S3 or Diamond Brand Support We no longer support customer service or warranty claims on any of our legacy products sold under the former S3 or Diamond brand. As we no longer manufacture these products, and have not for some time, our customer care and warranty claim call volumes related to these products are extremely low. Because of this, we made the decision to discontinue support for these products. If you are experiencing problems with your Diamond or S3 legacy product please contact an independent repair professional. We appreciate your understanding in this matter and hope that this change does not inconvenience you greatly. The above statement seems totally ludicrous, as how is "an independent repair professional" (which I think I more than qualify for) supposed to support these products without the files that were available on the ftp site? I put in a call to their technical support staff at (206) 515-1400, and when I selected option '5' for diamond products, it referred me back to the above support url, claiming that support files were available on the website. The phone system then hung up, and I called back again selecting the Supra support and 'other' products...same thing. I finally got someone on the line by selecting Supra support and the first and only product the phone system mentioned. I think it was option 4 and 1. Talk about a nightmare. Turns out, they've suddenly had a massive influx of calls from other slightly annoyed customers who still support and use all this "obsolete hardware." Personally, I don't see how hardware can be "obsolete" if it works and does exactly what you need it to. They also seemed to have no clue that older versions of firmware and such are very important when maintaining and supporting these things. The ftp server formerly contained nearly every version that had been released. Now its all gone. Some of these products were only a couple of years old too. If other hardware forums haven't had info about this yet, they probably will soon... If anyone else wants to call and ask questions, the phone number above should get you though to someone. I've asked them about returning the ftp site to its former state, as that would seem to be the best solution for everyone right now. -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 27 20:37:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: OT? Supera and Diamond Multimedia support References: Message-ID: <003601c324b8$809f1ec0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> What driver are you looking for? There are drivers for diamond and s3 all over the net. I don't see this as being uncommon in the computer industry. Companies get bought out and the documents/driver are kept around a few years and then they are dumped to save on the website/ftpsite/bandwidth/domain name charges. If you support a particular product you have sold, then you should keep the relevant drivers and information handy on your machine. As far as repairing those products, I cant think of anything that would not be cheaper to trash and replace then to repair. Modems these days are dirt cheap, and you can still find non-winmodems for sale at surplus sites on the net. There is also the possibility that drivers for another devise built with the same chipset would work with your card. My diamond mx300 is an aureal chipset and I use aureals drivers (still available even though aureal is no more), my diamond monster 3d II uses the drivers from 3dfx, etc. I dont own any s3 products besides a bunch of real old video cards and those are avilable from other sites if needed. In general just winimage driver disks (for older hardware that had drivers on floppy) and store them on tape backup or on cd. Its very cheap to do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:19 PM Subject: OT? Supera and Diamond Multimedia support > I guess this might be slightly OT, and maybe a little bit of a rant, > though lots of Diamond products are easily 10 years old or older... > > I just found out today that the massive archive of drivers and firmware > that was on the the Diamond ftp server [ftp://ftp.diamondmm.com/] is gone. > I didn't have the bandwidth to mirror it, but I sure hope someone here got > a copy when I recommended months back (Modem/Supra thread) that someone > archive it. > > The support page for Diamond products > [http://www.diamondmm.com/support/diamond/] formerly contained links to > files on the ftp server. It now has the following posted: > > S3 or Diamond Brand Support > > We no longer support customer service or warranty claims on any of our > legacy products sold under the former S3 or Diamond brand. As we no > longer manufacture these products, and have not for some time, our > customer care and warranty claim call volumes related to these products > are extremely low. Because of this, we made the decision to discontinue > support for these products. If you are experiencing problems with your > Diamond or S3 legacy product please contact an independent repair > professional. We appreciate your understanding in this matter and hope > that this change does not inconvenience you greatly. > > The above statement seems totally ludicrous, as how is "an independent > repair professional" (which I think I more than qualify for) supposed to > support these products without the files that were available on the ftp > site? > > I put in a call to their technical support staff at (206) 515-1400, and > when I selected option '5' for diamond products, it referred me back to > the above support url, claiming that support files were available on the > website. The phone system then hung up, and I called back again selecting > the Supra support and 'other' products...same thing. I finally got someone > on the line by selecting Supra support and the first and only product the > phone system mentioned. I think it was option 4 and 1. Talk about a > nightmare. > > Turns out, they've suddenly had a massive influx of calls from other > slightly annoyed customers who still support and use all this "obsolete > hardware." Personally, I don't see how hardware can be "obsolete" if it > works and does exactly what you need it to. They also seemed to have no > clue that older versions of firmware and such are very important when > maintaining and supporting these things. The ftp server formerly contained > nearly every version that had been released. Now its all gone. Some of > these products were only a couple of years old too. If other hardware > forums haven't had info about this yet, they probably will soon... > > If anyone else wants to call and ask questions, the phone number above > should get you though to someone. I've asked them about returning the ftp > site to its former state, as that would seem to be the best solution for > everyone right now. > > -Toth From CCTalk at catcorner.org Tue May 27 20:40:00 2003 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87D@308server.308dole.com> I have the 3.1 or 3.2 system, scriptsit, dev system, mbasic, and filePro or Profile16. How urgent are your needs? I only have them available on 5.25" disks (follow the directions on Frank Durda's site to connect up a 5.25" drive). I can probably get to copying them in mid to late June. Just remind me in a few weeks. Anyone else collect the 6000's? Kelly -----Original Message----- From: Owen Robertson [mailto:univac2@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:13 PM To: Classic Computer Mailing List Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks Well, I found someone with a Tandy 6000 keyboard to sell and it should be on it's way to me tomorrow. Unfortunately, when it gets here, I will have nothing to use it for, as I accidentally wiped XENIX completely off my 6000's internal hard disk while trying to format a secondary *external* hard disk. I will never again assume that a program named 'hdinit' will actually ask me *which* disk to erase, nor that it will ask for *ANY* kind of confirmation before wiping the internal hard disk... So I am now in the market for some Tandy XENIX distribution disks for version 3.whatever. I don't know the exact version number of the OS that was for the 6000 specifically. Also, should anyone have the Multiuser BASIC disks, or Profile for XENIX disks, those were lost as well... I didn't have any of the original disks for anything dealing with the 6000. I'd also like to get my hands on something my system never had, whose absence was very noticeable - the XENIX Development System, which contains things like the C compiler, mail, and many other things I don't consider optional in a UNIX-based system. Any help is greatly appreciated... -- Owen Robertson From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 27 20:41:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: OT? Supera and Diamond Multimedia support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2003, Tothwolf wrote: > If anyone else wants to call and ask questions, the phone number above > should get you though to someone. I've asked them about returning the ftp > site to its former state, as that would seem to be the best solution for > everyone right now. In the very least you should ask if they would release that entire part of their FTP server into the public domain, or at least let someone else host it. Quite ridiculously lame! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vaxzilla at jarai.org Tue May 27 22:03:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030528001329.O245564@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20030526095119.T213971@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20030528001329.O245564@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On 2003.05.26 23:47 Tony Duell wrote: > > (the section in 'The Art of > > Electronics' 2nd edition is a good staring point), > Unfortunately I don't own this book. When I tried to order it from .de, > the cost was prohibitive. It's 65 EUR through Amazon--worth the price IMHO. -brian. From claudew at videotron.ca Tue May 27 22:36:00 2003 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:55 2005 Subject: FT : Sharp MZ-100 Message-ID: <001001c324cb$9118f9c0$2100a8c0@GamerCaude> Going to kids garage sale or goodwill....or grab it here... Its a dual floppy 8088 10mhz laptop. I am not into x86 boxes Worked last timed I tried it out. You supply power supply... Offers welcome. Trade - not interested in cash (...): 72 pin parity ram, sun sparc 20 cpu module(s)... Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed May 28 00:36:01 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: OT? Supera and Diamond Multimedia support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 2003, Tothwolf wrote: > > > If anyone else wants to call and ask questions, the phone number above > > should get you though to someone. I've asked them about returning the > > ftp site to its former state, as that would seem to be the best > > solution for everyone right now. > > In the very least you should ask if they would release that entire part > of their FTP server into the public domain, or at least let someone else > host it. I'm working on that too. The real problem seems to be the lack of a communication channel to anyone with the power to actually do anything. I'd be happy to even accept a tape copy of the old site if they could provide it. I'm sure I can find *someone* with the space to host the files. I use *tons* of Diamond branded products. The video cards were all pretty much built with standard chipsets and tended to be well supported in a non-microsoft environment. Things like configuration programs (often bundled with ms drivers) and different revisions of firmware are of course *very* important. I have so many different Diamond products, that I never kept all the different drivers on disk, and for the most part just used the ftp site when I needed a file. From what I understand, this is a very common practice anyway. Going back to say 1994, I have and still use cards like the Diamond Viper VLB, which pretty much set the bar for PC video cards. When they were new, they cost upward of $400, and had an amazing 2MB of ram available. I personally own 100s of Diamond products, as I once swore by them, and have even been actively hunting down used/junk cards as I could find them. > Quite ridiculously lame! Yup, it is. I just hope whoever made the bad decision corrects their mistake. One of the main reasons I have continued to use Diamond products since about 1992 or so is that they were very good about archiving software such as drivers, utilities, and firmware that went with their cards. Also, if you think about Supra products, a large number of them have upgradeable firmware. I have many, many Supra modems that could be upgraded to support higher speeds and newer protocols, but since the files are not there, I have no idea if I'll ever be able to. -Toth From martinm at allwest.net Wed May 28 00:52:00 2003 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 - Advice Needed Message-ID: <3ED44E4A.7080702@allwest.net> This afternoon, I hauled home an IBM System/36 - PC (5364), complete with dedicated IBM PC (5150), Monitor, KB, cables and an IBM 4224 printer, but no documentation, all from my local Farmer's Insurance agent. The system is complete, including the "Farmers Master System Diskette". The components are badged "Farmers Insurance Group 5280Z". Googling indicates that these systems were fairly common. The system boots to the Service Control Menu, then continues the IPL to a IPL Sign On menu. Does anyone know the Service password or the Backup Service password for the Service Control Menu? Does anyone know another way into this system? I am an absolute neophyte on this system, so any help, warnings, war stories, etc. would be appreciated. Thank you, Martin Marshall From kenny at datexstorage.com Wed May 28 01:15:01 2003 From: kenny at datexstorage.com (datex) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: Looking to Buy Message-ID: <200305271602.h4RG20L32334@ns2.ezwind.net> We are looking to buy SEAGATE, IBM AND QUANTUM SCSI DISK DRIVES If you have any for sale please let us know what you have. Thanks Datex Storage From hansp at citem.org Wed May 28 01:15:31 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> Message-ID: <3ED3B4AD.9080000@citem.org> Brian Hechinger wrote: > where do i get simh help? i'm trying to install VMS on a simh instance, and > it doesn't seem to want to play nice. where do i get help for simh? the > documentation is slim, and there seems to be no mailing list. Sorry, can't help with the VMS quetions but this link should take you to a SIMH mailing list - see you there. http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- hbp From jmackd1 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 01:15:55 2003 From: jmackd1 at yahoo.com (jeff m) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: JC 80 parts Message-ID: <20030527190006.7252.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Toth, Noticed you posted on the web back in Dec of 2002 you had a pallet full of JC80 parts, we are still using the JC80 here at the University of Texas, do you still have those parts? Thank you, Jeff McComas The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From vance at neurotica.com Wed May 28 01:16:18 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: Subscription In-Reply-To: <017601c3247c$612d28c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: It's available on http://www.classiccmp.org/ Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 27 May 2003, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Hi, > > What is the official current subscriptionprocedure > to subcribe to the cctalk list ? > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------------- From hansp at citem.org Wed May 28 01:16:42 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <10305271839.ZM5883@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <3ED0518E.4030702@citem.org> <10305271839.ZM5883@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3ED3BAE0.4050201@citem.org> Peter Turnbull wrote: > On May 25, 7:15, Hans B Pufal wrote: >>No, but they can learn. I do EXACTLY that with a PDP-8/e cpu I drag >>around to show at school exhibitions. The first question I get, of >>course, is where is the screen and keyboard. I teach the kids binary, >>than, with the aid of a small program left in the core we calculate >> the mean of a sequence of numbers entered in binary. And not a screen >> or keyboard in sight. This demo ALWAYS gets good reviews.... > Exactly what I did with my 8-year-old niece at Christmas. She's really > into "sums" and arithmetic at the moment, so when I wanted to play with > my 8/E, I taught her a little about binary, showed her how to read > octal off the switches and lights, and we added some numbers. She > loved it. And so did you I'm sure. I sometimes wonder who gets the most out of these demos, the domonstrators or the demontratees - definitly a win-win situation. -- hbp From geoffr at zipcon.com Wed May 28 01:17:05 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.com (geoffr@zipcon.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87D@308server.308dole.com> Message-ID: <3ed416223a7e94.68772672@zipcon.com> I'd be interested in those too!!! > I have the 3.1 or 3.2 system, scriptsit, dev system, mbasic, and filePro or > Profile16. How urgent are your needs? I only have them available on 5.25" > disks (follow the directions on Frank Durda's site to connect up a 5.25" > drive). I can probably get to copying them in mid to late June. Just remind > me in a few weeks. > > Anyone else collect the 6000's? > > Kelly From jss at subatomix.com Wed May 28 01:18:01 2003 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) Message-ID: <3ED45371.3020207@subatomix.com> As promised, the bulk of my collection will be up for bidding in less than 24 hours. For an interesting twist, I have decided to sell my collection in one large lot instead of several medium-sized lots. This will hopefully maximize both convenience and entertainment. Remember, I'm also accepting items in lieu of cash. The auction kicks off today (Wednesday) at 6PM PDT (1AM GMT). I wish all contestants a safe, enjoyable bidding experience. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2732905006 -- Jeffrey Sharp From marvin at rain.org Wed May 28 01:27:01 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) References: <3ED45371.3020207@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3ED4556D.B0B83847@rain.org> The auction is showing up as invalid or pending. Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > As promised, the bulk of my collection will be up for bidding in less > than 24 hours. > > For an interesting twist, I have decided to sell my collection in one > large lot instead of several medium-sized lots. This will hopefully > maximize both convenience and entertainment. Remember, I'm also > accepting items in lieu of cash. > > The auction kicks off today (Wednesday) at 6PM PDT (1AM GMT). I wish all > contestants a safe, enjoyable bidding experience. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2732905006 > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp -- ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From fernande at internet1.net Wed May 28 01:36:01 2003 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) In-Reply-To: <3ED45371.3020207@subatomix.com> References: <3ED45371.3020207@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3ED4577F.1000400@internet1.net> Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > The auction kicks off today (Wednesday) at 6PM PDT (1AM GMT). I wish all > contestants a safe, enjoyable bidding experience. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2732905006 I don't get it.... I have to sign in, but then get told it's invalid, blah blah blah. How do you have a url if it isn't listed yet? I've never heard of a delayed listing. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed May 28 02:49:00 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <448992f94b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > *still* won't boot to the FORTH interpreter. > Argh!. There aren't that many chips in the machine... I know... I also know that the repairs to the through-hole plating for the main RAMs, buffers and video RAMs are fine. That leaves the possibility of: A) Dead RAMs B) Dead LS buffers C) Dead ROMs I can pretty much discount C - the ROMs work fine in my Preprom - even at 4.5V (it's a so-called "Production Grade" programmer - the multilevel verify can be disabled, though). > Garbage as in random dot patterns, or garbage as in characters? Is it > loading the character generator at all? Random dot patterns. It doesn't look like the chargen is getting loaded at all. > Where are you in the country? I am not lending out any of my test gear (I > depend on it too much!), but if it's physcially possible for us to get > close together, I can have a quick look and wave some probes over it... I'm in Leeds, West Yorkshire. > I believe the normal ROMs do that early on anyway.... I've never heard of > a diagnostic ROM for the ACE They load the chargen *after* testing the main RAM. If the main RAM test (or another part of the POST) fails, the Ace won't even load the chargen. If I had designed the firmware, I'd have made it load the CG RAM, clear the VRAM and then run a selftest. If the selftest fails, display an error. Simple. Instead, I get the dubious pleasure of re-learning Z80 assembler and hacking together a diagnostic ROM... I'll try monitoring the RAMSEL, etc. pins on the LS138. I think there's a bus conflict somewhere because the CPU, EPROMs and RAMs are getting quite hot... I'll try and track down a thermometer later. I know there's a DS18S20 DirectDigital sensor around here *somewhere*... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From spc at conman.org Wed May 28 03:07:00 2003 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <200305272210.PAA10163@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 27, 2003 03:10:29 PM Message-ID: <20030528080614.66EF366C4@tower.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dwight K. Elvey once stated: > > I think these older machines are easier to work on. Things > are more exposed and excessable. Most of the newer machines > one has today are not even as repairable( motherboard fails, > swap out motherboard! ). As much as I hate to say this, but isn't this inevitable? Take, for instance, a homebrewed 6502 system---a gate in one of the 74xx series chips blows, you can't repair the chip, unlike say, a PDP-1 where the offending transistors/diodes can be repaired in the single blown gate. So you have to toss *the entire chip* and replace it. Replacing a card (or motherboard) is that, only writ large. And I see the beginnings where if some component on the computer fails, you replace the computer (I would imaging this happens at Google with their multi-thousand PC clusters). -spc (Not that I like this, but I see this as a trend ... ) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 28 04:53:00 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: IIfx memory In-Reply-To: <004701c32381$43ffd960$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030528023100.033c1ce0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 08:20 AM 5/26/03 -0400, TeoZ wrote: >Anybody know where to get memory (4mb simm or better) for a mac IIfx cheap or >have some they dont want. I think its 64 pin proprietary memory (also used in >a specific mac printer cant recall). > >Its funny how apple makes proprietary memory for only 1 specific model >computer (how is that cost effective?), just like the memory upgrade for my >apple 4/600 PS laser (one of a kind). I;ve been watching ebay and nothing but 1 mb sticks. The way it was cost effective was that 1 MB cost $100, ie it was all in the chips, the board cost was insignificant. From scannall at mac.com Wed May 28 07:33:00 2003 From: scannall at mac.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: IIfx memory In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030528023100.033c1ce0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: > At 08:20 AM 5/26/03 -0400, TeoZ wrote: >> Anybody know where to get memory (4mb simm or better) for a mac IIfx cheap or >> have some they dont want. I think its 64 pin proprietary memory (also used in >> a specific mac printer cant recall). >> >> Its funny how apple makes proprietary memory for only 1 specific model >> computer (how is that cost effective?), just like the memory upgrade for my >> apple 4/600 PS laser (one of a kind). > > I;ve been watching ebay and nothing but 1 mb sticks. > > The way it was cost effective was that 1 MB cost $100, ie it was all in the > chips, the board cost was insignificant. Another thing is, that we're talking about a computer that's over 10 years old. Introduced in 1990, discontinued in 1992. Dan Smith From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed May 28 08:24:00 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <20030528080614.66EF366C4@tower.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > And I see the beginnings where if some component on the computer fails, > you replace the computer (I would imaging this happens at Google with their > multi-thousand PC clusters). That's the intent of blade computing. You've a rack of computers. If one of them fails, you don't care, plenty of spare capacity. And repair of the failed system is to replace the entire computer. (CPU, Memory, even the drives..) In the non-blade space, FWIW, The smallest field replaceable unit on a Sun 6800 is an entire system board. (that includes multiple CPU's and all of the memory DIMMs, plus anything else that's on the board) My guess says one of those sysboards lists for over 100,000$ (american). (fortunately, work has a support contract.) Agreed that its kinda sad, but considering the connectors involved, probably the only way to do it. David > > -spc (Not that I like this, but I see this as a trend ... ) From marks at techprecision.com.au Wed May 28 08:29:00 2003 From: marks at techprecision.com.au (Mark Setter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: LA 120 Message-ID: Hi there I saw your post as a result of my search criteria in google, i am chasing any and all documentation on DEC LA 120 and any other relevant PDP material. I have just secured a position with a company that supports this type of hardware, and am having difficulty wrapping my mind around the sheer immensity of the equipment. So any help would be very much appreciated, as i search and search for any documentation. :) Best regards Mark Setter From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 28 08:29:34 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: DEC AlphaServer 1200 In-Reply-To: <000901c32474$2f981c50$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Antonio Carlini > Sent: 27 May 2003 18:20 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: DEC AlphaServer 1200 > > > > The ECU diskettes are on the website: > > > >ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/as1200.html > > Where precisely? I see firmware updates, but that's not what > the ECU is. IIRC the ECU stuff is from a 3rd party and > HP cannot give it away (as they don't own it). > > So to get an ECU diskette you need to purchase an OS > distribution (which includes one). > > So if you have one, hang on to it. I've got several - I always thought the ECU and the firmware were one and the same! I'll have to go dig out my VMS 7.3EFT distro and see what version's in with that 'cos there's definitely a floppy in with the kit. I'll report back when I've found it :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans From surjit.bilkhu at btconnect.com Wed May 28 08:30:00 2003 From: surjit.bilkhu at btconnect.com (Surjit Bilkhu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: HP 9845B <- free paper Message-ID: <009101c32505$199909f0$9300a8c0@surjit> Hi there Do you still have any HP 9845B units left that you might want to get rid off. Rdgs Surjit From allain at panix.com Wed May 28 08:36:06 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) References: <3ED45371.3020207@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <003201c3251d$a562c9e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2732905006 Invalid item. From elecdata1 at gbronline.com Wed May 28 08:38:01 2003 From: elecdata1 at gbronline.com (preferred customer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: DEC Modules F/A at SYI References: <3ED3F55C.EA2C74FC@rain.org> Message-ID: <3ED4BA6A.745152C8@gbronline.com> Thanks Marvin! I'll take a look at what your offering and perhaps look at some of the other classic items that are up for sale. Bill Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've just listed some M series modules and a Quad Extender Board over at > Sellyouritem.com. The URL for the classic computer stuff is at: > > http://www.sellyouritem.com/ListAuctions.html?CategoryID=1497 > > These are set for a three day auction to give listmembers a chance at > them. I plan on listing about a dozen+ items a day, so it might be > worthwhile to check over there occassionally. > > We've had some discussion about First Come/First Serve, and that > basically means whoever lives at their computer has the best shot at > anything offered to the list. I think this might be a fairer way of > doing things without giving the whole world a chance at stuff. SYI has > *NO* listing fees, and FVFs are slightly less than on Ebay. My feeling > is that a three day auction gives everyone on the list a chance to look > at the stuff, and bid if they are interested. > > ------------------------------------------- > ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup > http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 28 09:10:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, May 28, 2003 at 01:03:21 %z References: Message-ID: <20030528084634.GI1775@oblina> On 2003.05.28 01:03 Tony Duell wrote: > It's not cheap in the UK (about \pounds 40, I think), but it is > _good_. I think it's worth the money. > Of course I don't know what price you were I have no problem to pay good money for a good book. But 250,-DM (~130,-EUR) was to much. (Book store at the local university. They needed to make a special order...) I tried amazon, but they cold not deliver this book to Germany back then. This may have changed. (Have to check Brians hint...) > As I said, most SMPSU faults are capacitors or power transistors :-) One problem is obvious: The big 24000 uF capacitor is missing from one brick and this brick was repaird bevore. There are some burned traces on the PCB that where replaced with wire and solder long ago. Unfortunately it looks like I will not get time for the PDP-11 this evening too. Some local computer colectors are making a barbecue. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cb at mythtech.net Wed May 28 10:33:01 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) Message-ID: >How do you have a url if it isn't listed yet? I've >never heard of a delayed listing. When selling stuff on ebay, you have the option of setting your start date/time to something other than right now. It costs more to do this, but it is an option. So like Jeffrey's post said, the auction starts at 6pm PDT Wednesday. So I would assume the link will become valid as of that time (it would be nice if ebay gave you a slightly better message than just Invalid Item so you know you are looking at a not yet valid item as opposed to a totally incorrect listing ID) -chris From ipscone at msdsite.com Wed May 28 10:50:00 2003 From: ipscone at msdsite.com (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10515.130.76.32.20.1054136977.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> You also get this message ("invalid listing"), when an auction is cancelled by eBay. Mike >>How do you have a url if it isn't listed yet? I've >>never heard of a delayed listing. > > When selling stuff on ebay, you have the option of setting your start > date/time to something other than right now. It costs more to do this, > but it is an option. > > So like Jeffrey's post said, the auction starts at 6pm PDT Wednesday. So > I would assume the link will become valid as of that time (it would be > nice if ebay gave you a slightly better message than just Invalid Item so > you know you are looking at a not yet valid item as opposed to a totally > incorrect listing ID) > > -chris > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 28 11:34:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) References: <10515.130.76.32.20.1054136977.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: <002001c32535$d97936c0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> He is selling everything in 1 lot? Wont get what they are worth doing that, must be real interested in dumping them fast. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:49 AM Subject: Re: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) > You also get this message ("invalid listing"), when an auction is > cancelled by eBay. > > Mike > > >>How do you have a url if it isn't listed yet? I've > >>never heard of a delayed listing. > > > > When selling stuff on ebay, you have the option of setting your start > > date/time to something other than right now. It costs more to do this, > > but it is an option. > > > > So like Jeffrey's post said, the auction starts at 6pm PDT Wednesday. So > > I would assume the link will become valid as of that time (it would be > > nice if ebay gave you a slightly better message than just Invalid Item so > > you know you are looking at a not yet valid item as opposed to a totally > > incorrect listing ID) > > > > -chris > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 28 12:43:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The Great Auction (Leaving the Hobby) In-Reply-To: <10515.130.76.32.20.1054136977.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Mike wrote: > You also get this message ("invalid listing"), when an auction is > cancelled by eBay. D'ya mean that even eBay doesn't want him to leave? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 28 13:08:00 2003 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:56 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... Message-ID: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> 28 May, 2003 ...and then one day you wake up, and things are just not the same anymore... And so it is with the 'Computer Garage'... As of today, I am with great regret announcing the dissolution of the major part of the Computer Garage collection of classic computers and related materials. First; I will detail the method in which this will be done, and then I will detail the reasons and events that have lead up to this decision. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The dissollution and redistribution: With the exception of between six and ten units that have particular 'history' with me, all items in the collection will be disbursed. These items will be specified shortly. Beginning in a few days, and proceeding over the next few months as needed a 'catalog' page will be created on the 'Computer Garage' site. For each item there will be a description, a thumbnail picture when practical, an estimated shipping weight, and a date. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 28 13:24:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <005b01c32545$2a7cd0e0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Well having a hobby that outgrows your ability to support it kills any fun you have doing it. You have to eat first, collect later. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Willing" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:07 PM Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... > 28 May, 2003 > > ...and then one day you wake up, and things are just not the same > anymore... > > And so it is with the 'Computer Garage'... > > As of today, I am with great regret announcing the dissolution of the > major part of the Computer Garage collection of classic computers and > related materials. > > First; I will detail the method in which this will be done, and then I > will detail the reasons and events that have lead up to this decision. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > The dissollution and redistribution: > > With the exception of between six and ten units that have particular > 'history' with me, all items in the collection will be disbursed. These > items will be specified shortly. > > Beginning in a few days, and proceeding over the next few months as needed > a 'catalog' page will be created on the 'Computer Garage' site. For each > item there will be a description, a thumbnail picture when practical, an > estimated shipping weight, and a date. > > From the date shown, offers will be taken on the item for seven days. At > the end of that time, the highest offer of reasonable value will be awarded > the item. If no offers are received on an item, or the offers are > insufficient, a new date may be established. If an offer is received > that is considered to be unlikely to be matched/exceeded, an item may be > awarded prior to the end of the seven day period. > > Since the intent is not to start 'eBay' like bidding wars, the quantity of > or amounts of offers received will not be disclosed either on the page or > through direct communication. > > Once an item has been awarded, payment for the item and shipping must be > received within seven days or the item will be offered to the next closest > offer. > > Optionally, COD shipment can be requested on a Money Order/Certified Funds > basis, but any COD items will be shipped via 2-3 day method with the > accompaning increase in shipping/handling rate. > > There will be one exception in the method of awarding of items with regard > to determination of 'winning' offer. A year or so back, Sellam spearheaded a > fund raising drive when a major part of the collection was in imminent > threat of being lost to a storage auction. > > Were it within my pervue at the present time to allow it, I would offer > any of the people who donated funds at the time free choice of some number of > items that they wished in return for their past support. However, since my > current situation does not allow this I offer the following: Any person > who had donated funds toward the collection's past storage fees who makes > an offer on any item or items will be awarded the item if their offer is > within 25% of the highest offer received for that item during the > offering period. > > Hardware and peripheral items will be listed first. Over the next few > weeks/months printed materials will be getting scanned for archiving and > then added to the offering. Many of the printed items had not been > listed on the 'Garage' site so there may be some interesting appearances. > > For any given item, if it remains unclaimed for an extended period it will > become subject to disposal by whatever means necessary. > > Unpleasant on many levels, but this is what has become necessary. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > What has lead to this action: > > The collection as it currenty exists is the end result of nearly thirty > years of working in the computer industry and represents both machines > that I had personally worked with or had a significant interest in, and > machines that I was merely trying to save from the scrap heap. > > The sad part about history is that while important, it also tends to be > large and fairly heavy. This is true regardless of if you are speaking about > books, media, or hardware. And while books and media can be preserved in > more 'compact' forms, this is not true for the hardware of which I have a fair > amount. > > As one accumulates more, unless they are particularly fortunate or adept > at things financial, they also accumulate ever increasing costs for the > continuing storage and preservation of the materials. After a while, these costs can > become overwhelming. > > At one point, I was paying over $400.00 a month in storage fees for the > parts of the collection that did not actually reside in the Garage (when still > located in Oregon). And while I have been able to significantly reduce > the storage fees since the move to Kansas, they are still nearly $100.00 > a month. > > While this may seem a somewhat minimal (if not insignificant to some) > amount to deal with, it is actually a larger percentage of my monthly > income with the career change that accompanied the move. So in fact, the > burden has actually increased. > > To put this in perspective, when still in Oregon I had personal debts > (mortgage, recurring storage charges, and such things) of over $200,000 > which I just never seemed to gain any ground on. > > Since the move, I have been able to reduce the remaining debts to right > around $40,000, but have again found myself in the position of just not > being able to gain any ground on them, and more disturbingly as things > slow in the summer season I find myself actually losing ground. > > This adversely impacts both the business and family, as we have twice had > to move when unable to keep up with little things like rent, utilities, > etc... > And I've had it with schlepping boxes! And I want to oversee the > redistribution of the items in the collection before I lose control of it. > > Establishing and building up the new business/career has taken more time, > investment, and effort than originally expected. And while in general > terms we are not as far off 'plan' as it could have been considering the > current state of the local and national economy, I just can not continue > to ask my family to make additional sacrifices in order to continue to > maintain the collection and then have to struggle by week by week. Were > it just me, it might not be an issue but that is not the situation. > > I have maintained the collection as well as financed (when needed) new > acqusitions almost completely out-of-pocket over the years, and long ago > stopped trying to figure how much had been spent in the efforts. It was > just getting too depressing... Even when something is given/donated it > still comes with an attached cost: transport, shipping, storage, > repairs/restoration, etc... There is still 'no free lunch'... > > So... barring the arrival of some unforeseen benefactor or a sudden > 'lucky streak' in PowerBall, (of course, hard to win when you can't > really afford to play, eh) the sad reality is that it is time to let it > go... > > Some may ask, 'if things are that dire, why not a major eBay effort?' > Well; two reasons. I suppose the 'self-serving' one first - I would > prefer that the items went to someone who has some true appreciation for > them rather than just someone who has some money to drop and a big > 'bidding jones' on at the moment. > And then, the 'real world' reason - I can't. In part because I owe eBay > money from past auctions and in part because of complaints filed due to > excessive delays in getting items shipped. (Truth sucks some days, eh?) > > To get back to some level of 'stability', I need to raise just shy of > $10,000 by mid-August at the latest. Should that effort fail, well... > Unpleasentness at the very least... And to salvage the latest house deal > I need to come up with $2500 in the next couple of weeks. > > Life just keeps getting better, eh? (major ironic flag here) > > Over the past few months, I've already sacrificed some (non-computer > related) items that had more meaning to me than a large part of the items > remaining in the collection. What an unpleasent realization THAT was one > recent morning... > > It just has to stop one way or the other... > > All items that have been offered recently will continue to be shipped as > quickly as time and finances permit. Much of the time it is a matter of > getting payments in fast enough to stay ahead of the bills so the bank > does not take the money before I can get to it... > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > My warmest regards and thanks to all who have supported my efforts over > the years. My primary regret is that I did not have the skills necessary to > accomplish the greater goals. > > Further announcements to follow... > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 28 14:16:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Jim; As I read your email a profound sadness overcomes.... I guess this hobby (moreso, to people like us) can very easily become all-consuming both financially and psychologically. I, and I am quite sure others on the list definitely feel and share your pain. Several times since getting into the hobby I have been to the point of just giving up, feeling that required items for a particular system are simply never to be found again. Or seeing a particular piece and not being able to swing the cash at the time. Or putting the family through grief when I stay up till the wee hours for weeks on end trying to get something working. Or wondering how on earth I'm going to get a piece that I have obtained transported. Or storage once it arrives... well, I'm sure everyone here can identify. So far, fortunately, every time I've hit that point I've been able to overcome it - either with unwarranted optimism or by walking away from it for a month or so. It royally sucks to me that many of us (probably not me, but many here anyways) have extremely important ranges of computing history - and that without us, they will NOT survive from what I can see, at least as a representative range of systems. Most museums simply don't care, or want to, represent the whole of computing history. That is something that is so central to our culture, the very fabric of our current daily lives. I'm not talking about a classic "straight 8", or a DG nova - these will likely be represented. But the entire gamut that we have (most of us) lived through - from the DECs to the altair and apples and heathkits up to, yes... I'll say it... modern PC's. Pick any one of them, and unless they were in the top tier of name recognition I don't think they will be around in museums - an exidy sorcerer for example - unless we preserve them. Future generations must know that it wasn't just the Apple and IBM PC. It is this very degeneration of view into "years ago people used apples and PC's" that is so wrong, given that the whole progress was possible because of VARIED systems. Almost everyone used something different; that's what got our technology where it is today. That's why we are a bit stagnated with the current Windows monopoly. To bring in another thread that's been going on on the list... I am also very concerned that many of these systems need to be preserved NOW, rather than later with regards to the ability to repair them. Yes, new (young) people can be trained in basic TTL repair and troubleshooting. But I don't see a lot of that going on, or at least, not enough to make sure that a fair number of these machines stay running. Long story short, I am very concerned with the trend. I wish I had answers. Jim, I sincerely hope that you manage to at least hold onto a system or two, and can stay active on this list. I'm sure we all empathize and wish you the very best, as well as sincerely thank you for your past participation here. Regards, Jay West From hansp at citem.org Wed May 28 14:19:01 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED4BDB7.5090504@citem.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>And worse to the categorisation and descritpion. We are in the process >>of inventorying our collection, the PDP-9 is described as "a cabinet xx >>cm tall, xx cm wide, xx cm deep with orange and black panels and an >>operator console". That neatly describes a museums view of a PDP-9 !! >>I am currently in a battle royal to get this point of view chamged. > Argh!! I knew I disliked most museums for a good reason :-)... This is > simply rediculous. A PDP9 is a PDP9 no matter what cabinet it's installed > in, of even if it's jsut loose backplanes and PSUs... Exactly... > Mind you, I once saw a list of valves (vacuum tubes) that one museum was > offering to another. The list had a column of 'condition'. No, it didn't > give the emission and gm figures. It didn't even say if the heater was > continous, and the getter silver (not white, which would indicate air had > leaked into the valve). No, it described how clean the glass was... Yes, exactly the same mentality. >> Had "policy" been applied at least 90 of those tapes would have >> been trashed on the grounds that "we already have ten of those". > The obvious extension of this is that art galleries should throw out all > but 10 of their paintings on the ground that they 'already have 10 pieces > of canvas with paint on them' :-)... And that libraries only need to keep > 10 books ('we already have 10 sets of bound pieces of paper with ink on > them'). > Somebody is going to have to educate museum curators about the importance > and meaning of technical and computer artefacts... Indeed, and the battle will be long and arduous... But we WILL prevail.... -- hbp From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Wed May 28 14:26:00 2003 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... In-Reply-To: <005b01c32545$2a7cd0e0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030528192451.45799.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> Yea, I was kind of perplexed why he didn't do this long ago, there is no way you can start a small business and maintain such a large collection. Compound this with the money problems, I would of sold everything before moving (even those 6 to 10 units he is not planning on selling). --- TeoZ wrote: > Well having a hobby that outgrows your ability to > support it kills any fun > you have doing it. You have to eat first, collect > later. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Willing" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:07 PM > Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... > > > > 28 May, 2003 > > > > ...and then one day you wake up, and things are > just not the same From wonko at 4amlunch.net Wed May 28 14:46:01 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net>; from kth@srv.net on Tue, May 27, 2003 at 03:19:51PM -0600 References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> Message-ID: <20030528153001.D27509@zill.net> On Tue, May 27, 2003 at 03:19:51PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > Depends on what problem you are having, what version of simh you are using, > and what OS you are running it on. I can run VMS in simh under Linux > without > any problems. Haven't used it under Windows though. i run it on NetBSD without any trouble. v2.1.0-4 on IRIX 6.5.16f. build with MIPSpro 7.4 with -apo it was fast as balls, but was EXTREMELY unstable. without -apo it's much clower (no surprise there) and it is not completely stable, but only mostly stable. i am curious if anyone else has tried to build it with non-gcc on something. -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From kth at srv.net Wed May 28 15:09:01 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> <20030528153001.D27509@zill.net> Message-ID: <3ED520D7.5090709@srv.net> Brian Hechinger wrote: >On Tue, May 27, 2003 at 03:19:51PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > >>Depends on what problem you are having, what version of simh you are using, >>and what OS you are running it on. I can run VMS in simh under Linux >>without >>any problems. Haven't used it under Windows though. >> >> > >i run it on NetBSD without any trouble. > >v2.1.0-4 on IRIX 6.5.16f. > >build with MIPSpro 7.4 > >with -apo it was fast as balls, but was EXTREMELY unstable. > Does simh crash, or does it just do wacky things? More details would be useful. >without -apo it's much clower (no surprise there) and it is not completely >stable, but only mostly stable. > >i am curious if anyone else has tried to build it with non-gcc on something. > >-brian > > It's probably mostly done with some version of GCC, but I believe that it is often compiled using Microsoft Visual C. If you can discover where the problem is, then I'm sure Bob would like to know about it and would probably be happy to receive any fixes. The hard part is determining what is going wrong, and without access to the specific compilers, that is rather hard. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 28 15:21:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <005b01c32545$2a7cd0e0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <002f01c32556$81129640$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Teo wrote... > You have to eat first, collect later. Doh! That explains the weight loss *sigh* From wonko at 4amlunch.net Wed May 28 15:47:00 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <3ED520D7.5090709@srv.net>; from kth@srv.net on Wed, May 28, 2003 at 02:49:27PM -0600 References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> <20030528153001.D27509@zill.net> <3ED520D7.5090709@srv.net> Message-ID: <20030528163037.I27509@zill.net> On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 02:49:27PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > Does simh crash, or does it just do wacky things? More details would > be useful. it stops responding. if i don't clear out my nvram file, it fails on memory check the next time i boot the cpu. i need to delete the nvram file and restart, then it works. for a while anyway, and then eventually stops responding. > It's probably mostly done with some version of GCC, but I believe that > it is often compiled using Microsoft Visual C. it's been added to my LONG list of things to clean up for building with non-gcc. MIPSpro being very anal complains a LOT about the source code. > If you can discover where the problem is, then I'm sure Bob would like > to know about it and would probably be happy to receive any fixes. i'd love to, but i'm not even sure how to. ;( > The hard part is determining what is going wrong, and without access to > the specific compilers, that is rather hard. one i get the Challenge running i would be more than happy to give out accounts to help the non-gcc cause. -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 28 15:58:01 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <005b01c32545$2a7cd0e0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <002f01c32556$81129640$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <001801c3255a$a196ba00$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Lets face it computers can be an addiction just like alcohol, gambling, "insert anything fun here", etc. I have known friends to lose $300 or more in the weekly poker party every week and still go play even after their phone is turned off and their car gets repossessed. Its a personality trait. I have more computers that I really need, but I just collect the ones that I couldnt afford in my youth. I dont have the need to have 1 of every system ever made, just the ones I found to be cool. And like quite a few people, I dont want to think about how much I spent on this hobby. On the PC gaming side I have spent a mint over the last 10 years having the latest and greatest home game machine. Thank god equipment has dropped in price quite a bit. Now I just concentrate on the older retro machines that are not that expensive at all. If I had the cash and the space I would probably expand my collection to include a few alpha chip models, an older SGI or sun box. But I have never spent money on a computer/part/software when I didnt have the cash, or purchased something before paying my bills. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > Teo wrote... > > You have to eat first, collect later. > > Doh! That explains the weight loss *sigh* From kth at srv.net Wed May 28 16:24:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> <20030528153001.D27509@zill.net> <3ED520D7.5090709@srv.net> <20030528163037.I27509@zill.net> Message-ID: <3ED5324B.3040405@srv.net> Brian Hechinger wrote: >On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 02:49:27PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > >>Does simh crash, or does it just do wacky things? More details would >>be useful. >> >> > >it stops responding. if i don't clear out my nvram file, it fails on memory >check the next time i boot the cpu. > Odd. If you can still Control/E to the prompt, try 'N' for several instructions to see if it is stuck in VMS's idle loop (cycles through a very small number of instructions). If it is, it might not be seeing any interrupts. If Control/E doesn't work, then things are really hosed. > >i need to delete the nvram file and restart, then it works. for a while >anyway, and then eventually stops responding. > > I haven't been using a NVR file, and it seems to work ok. Try commenting it out in your configuration file, and see what happens. >>It's probably mostly done with some version of GCC, but I believe that >>it is often compiled using Microsoft Visual C. >> >> > >it's been added to my LONG list of things to clean up for building with >non-gcc. MIPSpro being very anal complains a LOT about the source code. > Sometimes that's a good thing. It may actually be pointing right at the problem, but hiding it under a mass of additional messages. >i'd love to, but i'm not even sure how to. ;( > I've done it using the 'N' command (next instruction), trying to trace out bad instructions, and using gdb. It's very tedius when you are looking for one instruction out of a million executed that are wrong. From sherrill at frontiercomputer.com Wed May 28 16:28:01 2003 From: sherrill at frontiercomputer.com (Sherrill) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: AV11--Need advice. Message-ID: <000001c3254e$6bf41160$c500000a@sherrill> I ran across your 11/4/02 post about leaking capacitors. We have two (so far) PCs afflicted. What scares the crap out of me is that we have a number of them at customers as voicemail servers. You said you replaced with AV22 and AV18, and we'd like to find out if that'll work for us. I also read at overclockers how to replace capacitors. I believe both the PCs are 700 mhz Celeron running Windows XP. I'd appreciate any advice you can give us. Sherrill Lowrey sherrill@frontiercomputer.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed May 28 17:25:00 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... In-Reply-To: <448992f94b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <448992f94b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: I'm beginning to wonder... Does anyone know what clock frequency the Ace runs at? The RAMs I'm using are Toshiba TMM214APL-1 (2114L-2) chips. The EPROMs are Texas Instruments TMS2732s, part number TMS2732-45 -- 450nS rated. Is it likely that the Ace is acting up because the ROMs aren't updating their data outputs fast enough? By my reckoning, 1MHz = 1uS or 1000nS. 2MHz = 0.5uS or 500nS. ISTR the Ace ran at 1.8432MHz, which should still be in spec for the ROMs... I've just checked the address lines going to the RAMs. I now have a list of which CPU pin connects to what RAM line. There are no shorts to Vcc or Gnd on the board, so I think I can rule out a bus conflict, unless the inputs to the LS138 decoder are screwed up... I think more testing is in order. Now where's that Tek gone... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed May 28 22:37:01 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:57 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > Jim; > As I read your email a profound sadness overcomes.... I guess this hobby > (moreso, to people like us) can very easily become all-consuming both > financially and psychologically. I, and I am quite sure others on the list > definitely feel and share your pain. Several times since getting into the > hobby I have been to the point of just giving up, feeling that required > items for a particular system are simply never to be found again. Or seeing > a particular piece and not being able to swing the cash at the time. Or > putting the family through grief when I stay up till the wee hours for weeks > on end trying to get something working. Or wondering how on earth I'm going > to get a piece that I have obtained transported. Or storage once it > arrives... well, I'm sure everyone here can identify. So far, fortunately, > every time I've hit that point I've been able to overcome it - either with > unwarranted optimism or by walking away from it for a month or so. Jerome Fine replies: I am very much in agreement with your response. Since I originally required real PDP-11 hardware to run the RT-11 programs, I was also concerned with finding enough hardware at a reasonable price to support my addiction. For myself however, my real collection is software. Thus there is absolutely no value there at all from hobby users. All I can do is copy the programs to a CD and then beg people to use them. I also understand about taking off some time and coming back to working with the things which are so challenging. Over the two decades that I have working with RT-11 on my own, I have made a few enhancements that I have found extremely useful just for my own requirements. > It royally sucks to me that many of us (probably not me, but many here > anyways) have extremely important ranges of computing history - and that > without us, they will NOT survive from what I can see, at least as a > representative range of systems. Most museums simply don't care, or want to, > represent the whole of computing history. That is something that is so > central to our culture, the very fabric of our current daily lives. I'm not > talking about a classic "straight 8", or a DG nova - these will likely be > represented. But the entire gamut that we have (most of us) lived through - > from the DECs to the altair and apples and heathkits up to, yes... I'll say > it... modern PC's. Pick any one of them, and unless they were in the top > tier of name recognition I don't think they will be around in museums - an > exidy sorcerer for example - unless we preserve them. Future generations > must know that it wasn't just the Apple and IBM PC. It is this very > degeneration of view into "years ago people used apples and PC's" that is so > wrong, given that the whole progress was possible because of VARIED systems. > Almost everyone used something different; that's what got our technology > where it is today. That's why we are a bit stagnated with the current > Windows monopoly. I agree that the competition was probably useful to allow so many different ideas to be tested. However, I suspect that most people on the classiccmp list tend to focus almost totally on the hardware - whereas I am of the opinion that the software is equally important. Note that I do agree that the hardware is essential as well, but I don't agree when the software is only used for showing that the hardware is working. Indeed, in my opinion, while the marriage of the hardware and software to produce the final result is dependent on both parts, the software can often make up for the areas where the hardware is deficient - at least in the short run. And more recently, it would seen that using an emulator to run PDP-11 instructions is no longer self-defeating, at least from my point of view, especially after DEC stopped further enhancement of the PDP-11. Being able to run RT-11 on a 3.6 GHz Pentium 4 under Ersatz-11 at 75 times the speed of a real DEC PDP-11/93 is hardly something to sneeze at. And that is just the start of the advantage of using Ersatz-11 under Windows 98 SE on a Pentium 4 system. Being able to have up to 12 "jobs" running at the same time and switching from one job to another at the touch of one keystroke on the same monitor (which can't be done on a real DEC PDP-11) let alone the speed of the output which is NOT restricted by a serial line running at 19,200 baud (sometimes it is actually TOO fast) is just another advantage. But I digress. The key point is, as you have stated, that almost every museum rarely have dynamic displays, let alone take the trouble to fix bugs in old code. And enhancements are totally out of the question. And as for saving the old versions of the OS, well if the system is not running, who cares. And the final problem is that the OS is never able to handle future dates - VMS on Alpha excepted. That problem I hope to resolve for RT-11 by making V05.03 both Y2K/Y10K compliant - perhaps even by the end of 2003 when the DATE value on older RT-11 distributions actually breaks. Since V05.07 of RT-11 is now able to handle dates until 2099, I intend to provide code which is compatible with V05.07 until 2099 after which I am hoping that changes made to V05.03 will also be incorporated in V05.07 to allow both versions to continue to be used for the foreseeable future. > To bring in another thread that's been going on on the list... I am also > very concerned that many of these systems need to be preserved NOW, rather > than later with regards to the ability to repair them. Yes, new (young) > people can be trained in basic TTL repair and troubleshooting. But I don't > see a lot of that going on, or at least, not enough to make sure that a fair > number of these machines stay running. That preservation aspect probably applies to software as well. I am also concerned that old versions of RT-11 will be lost. My goal is to copy as many of the old distributions of RT-11 up to V05.03 along with layered products to a CD so that they can be used by hobby users under the Supnik emulator. Since the code is in "C", it should be possible to continue to use the Supnik emulator for a very long time. > Long story short, I am very concerned with the trend. I wish I had answers. > Jim, I sincerely hope that you manage to at least hold onto a system or two, > and can stay active on this list. I'm sure we all empathize and wish you the > very best, as well as sincerely thank you for your past participation here. > Regards, > Jay West Likewise. I know that I will also need to dispose of 95% of my PDP-11 hardware - and since no one seems to want it, probably Dan Cohoe will end up with all of it if no one else is interested in sharing it. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 28 23:13:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> Message-ID: <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> I agree about the software being important. I scrounge EBAY and swaplists for complete software packages for my pc's, 68k macs, amiga's etc. this ranges from OS, productivity, to games. Turning on an old mac with no software to play with isn't allot of fun. My collection is from the late 80's to mid 90's mostly. Recently I purchased a complete set of Desqview/x V1 and 2 to mess around with on the pc's I have (too expensive when new to buy). I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older (macos on top of Unix). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome H. Fine" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:35 PM Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > >Jay West wrote: > > > Jim; > > As I read your email a profound sadness overcomes.... I guess this hobby > > (moreso, to people like us) can very easily become all-consuming both > > financially and psychologically. I, and I am quite sure others on the list > > definitely feel and share your pain. Several times since getting into the > > hobby I have been to the point of just giving up, feeling that required > > items for a particular system are simply never to be found again. Or seeing > > a particular piece and not being able to swing the cash at the time. Or > > putting the family through grief when I stay up till the wee hours for weeks > > on end trying to get something working. Or wondering how on earth I'm going > > to get a piece that I have obtained transported. Or storage once it > > arrives... well, I'm sure everyone here can identify. So far, fortunately, > > every time I've hit that point I've been able to overcome it - either with > > unwarranted optimism or by walking away from it for a month or so. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am very much in agreement with your response. Since I originally > required real PDP-11 hardware to run the RT-11 programs, I was > also concerned with finding enough hardware at a reasonable price > to support my addiction. > > For myself however, my real collection is software. Thus there > is absolutely no value there at all from hobby users. All I can do > is copy the programs to a CD and then beg people to use them. > > I also understand about taking off some time and coming back to > working with the things which are so challenging. Over the two > decades that I have working with RT-11 on my own, I have made > a few enhancements that I have found extremely useful just for > my own requirements. > > > It royally sucks to me that many of us (probably not me, but many here > > anyways) have extremely important ranges of computing history - and that > > without us, they will NOT survive from what I can see, at least as a > > representative range of systems. Most museums simply don't care, or want to, > > represent the whole of computing history. That is something that is so > > central to our culture, the very fabric of our current daily lives. I'm not > > talking about a classic "straight 8", or a DG nova - these will likely be > > represented. But the entire gamut that we have (most of us) lived through - > > from the DECs to the altair and apples and heathkits up to, yes... I'll say > > it... modern PC's. Pick any one of them, and unless they were in the top > > tier of name recognition I don't think they will be around in museums - an > > exidy sorcerer for example - unless we preserve them. Future generations > > must know that it wasn't just the Apple and IBM PC. It is this very > > degeneration of view into "years ago people used apples and PC's" that is so > > wrong, given that the whole progress was possible because of VARIED systems. > > Almost everyone used something different; that's what got our technology > > where it is today. That's why we are a bit stagnated with the current > > Windows monopoly. > > I agree that the competition was probably useful to allow > so many different ideas to be tested. However, I suspect > that most people on the classiccmp list tend to focus almost > totally on the hardware - whereas I am of the opinion that > the software is equally important. > > Note that I do agree that the hardware is essential as well, > but I don't agree when the software is only used for showing > that the hardware is working. > > Indeed, in my opinion, while the marriage of the hardware > and software to produce the final result is dependent on > both parts, the software can often make up for the areas > where the hardware is deficient - at least in the short run. > > And more recently, it would seen that using an emulator > to run PDP-11 instructions is no longer self-defeating, > at least from my point of view, especially after DEC > stopped further enhancement of the PDP-11. Being able > to run RT-11 on a 3.6 GHz Pentium 4 under Ersatz-11 > at 75 times the speed of a real DEC PDP-11/93 is > hardly something to sneeze at. And that is just the start > of the advantage of using Ersatz-11 under Windows 98 SE > on a Pentium 4 system. Being able to have up to 12 "jobs" > running at the same time and switching from one job to > another at the touch of one keystroke on the same monitor > (which can't be done on a real DEC PDP-11) let alone > the speed of the output which is NOT restricted by a serial > line running at 19,200 baud (sometimes it is actually TOO > fast) is just another advantage. > > But I digress. The key point is, as you have stated, that almost > every museum rarely have dynamic displays, let alone take > the trouble to fix bugs in old code. And enhancements are > totally out of the question. And as for saving the old versions > of the OS, well if the system is not running, who cares. > > And the final problem is that the OS is never able to handle > future dates - VMS on Alpha excepted. That problem I > hope to resolve for RT-11 by making V05.03 both Y2K/Y10K > compliant - perhaps even by the end of 2003 when the DATE > value on older RT-11 distributions actually breaks. Since > V05.07 of RT-11 is now able to handle dates until 2099, > I intend to provide code which is compatible with V05.07 > until 2099 after which I am hoping that changes made to > V05.03 will also be incorporated in V05.07 to allow both > versions to continue to be used for the foreseeable future. > > > To bring in another thread that's been going on on the list... I am also > > very concerned that many of these systems need to be preserved NOW, rather > > than later with regards to the ability to repair them. Yes, new (young) > > people can be trained in basic TTL repair and troubleshooting. But I don't > > see a lot of that going on, or at least, not enough to make sure that a fair > > number of these machines stay running. > > That preservation aspect probably applies to software as well. > I am also concerned that old versions of RT-11 will be lost. > > My goal is to copy as many of the old distributions of RT-11 > up to V05.03 along with layered products to a CD so that > they can be used by hobby users under the Supnik emulator. > Since the code is in "C", it should be possible to continue to > use the Supnik emulator for a very long time. > > > Long story short, I am very concerned with the trend. I wish I had answers. > > Jim, I sincerely hope that you manage to at least hold onto a system or two, > > and can stay active on this list. I'm sure we all empathize and wish you the > > very best, as well as sincerely thank you for your past participation here. > > Regards, > > Jay West > > Likewise. I know that I will also need to dispose of 95% of my PDP-11 > hardware - and since no one seems to want it, probably Dan Cohoe > will end up with all of it if no one else is interested in sharing it. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 29 01:26:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Old Software (was: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...) In-Reply-To: <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: >I agree about the software being important. I scrounge EBAY and swaplists >for complete software packages for my pc's, 68k macs, amiga's etc. this >ranges from OS, productivity, to games. Turning on an old mac with no >software to play with isn't allot of fun. My collection is from the late One thing I like about Mac's is that if you take a 10 year old Mac, and load it with software of the same age, and it can do basically anything the average user needs, with the exception of surfing (what can I say, I don't like browsing on slow systems). >80's to mid 90's mostly. Recently I purchased a complete set of Desqview/x >V1 and 2 to mess around with on the pc's I have (too expensive when new to >buy). I remember seeing Desqview/X at trade shows. It was totally cool, and I really wanted a copy at the time. Now I've got a copy, I just haven't had time to setup a system to play with it. >mass produced basic tools they are today. I don't think I have seen a real >copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years which is basically what OSX is for the >mac today but a decade older (macos on top of Unix). My first introduction to Unix in January of '92 was A/UX (about a week later I started playing with Linux), trust me, OS X is a far better implementation! We used the C2 version of A/UX, and the system was painful to use (all we really used were Word Perfect 1.0 and MacDraw. Finally someone figured out how to get System 7 installed, and the system suddenly screamed! Speaking of *old* software, I bought my first Mac in '95 (largely due to the previously mentioned system). Several apps that I got at that time I'm still running, though now I have to run them under classic mode. Thankfully the app I bought my first Mac to run, ClarisDraw (formally called MacDraw), still runs under Classic, as sadly a new version hasn't been released since I bought it :^( Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kurtk7 at visi.com Thu May 29 02:58:01 2003 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurtk7) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Need a bit of help Message-ID: <006301c325b8$16891a80$0200000a@p166mmx> I really could use a bit of help. I have been trying to reach Martijn Kruger of Retro Computing Unlimited. I was corresponding with him and then haven't heard from him. Not sure if I said something wrong but he was helping me find some technical manuals. If anyone can reach him or knows how I should contact him, please let me know. Thanks Kurt From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 29 07:35:01 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87D@308server.308dole.com > Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030528170838.1137f6dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:39 PM 5/27/03 -0400, you wrote: >I have the 3.1 or 3.2 system, scriptsit, dev system, mbasic, and filePro or >Profile16. How urgent are your needs? I only have them available on 5.25" >disks (follow the directions on Frank Durda's site to connect up a 5.25" >drive). I can probably get to copying them in mid to late June. Just remind >me in a few weeks. > >Anyone else collect the 6000's? I have two of them. One is mint and the other is a MONSTER. It's had all kinds of mods made on it. They wouldn't all fit in the box so now it's housed in a metal cube about 28" on each side. Mike Hass has at least one (probably more). Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 29 07:37:15 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030528170602.1137f7d8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Owen, I gave Mike Haas a BIG stack of T6000 manuals and disks (8"). You can e-mail him and see if he can help you. Joe At 07:13 PM 5/27/03 -0500, you wrote: >Well, I found someone with a Tandy 6000 keyboard to sell and it should be on >it's way to me tomorrow. Unfortunately, when it gets here, I will have >nothing to use it for, as I accidentally wiped XENIX completely off my >6000's internal hard disk while trying to format a secondary *external* hard >disk. I will never again assume that a program named 'hdinit' will actually >ask me *which* disk to erase, nor that it will ask for *ANY* kind of >confirmation before wiping the internal hard disk... > >So I am now in the market for some Tandy XENIX distribution disks for >version 3.whatever. I don't know the exact version number of the OS that was >for the 6000 specifically. Also, should anyone have the Multiuser BASIC >disks, or Profile for XENIX disks, those were lost as well... I didn't have >any of the original disks for anything dealing with the 6000. > >I'd also like to get my hands on something my system never had, whose >absence was very noticeable - the XENIX Development System, which contains >things like the C compiler, mail, and many other things I don't consider >optional in a UNIX-based system. > >Any help is greatly appreciated... > >-- >Owen Robertson From design.fort at ns.sympatico.ca Thu May 29 08:00:00 2003 From: design.fort at ns.sympatico.ca (The Design Fort DTP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 lights? In-Reply-To: <006301c325b8$16891a80$0200000a@p166mmx> Message-ID: I recently bought a Minivac 601. What a cool computer! Everything seems to work except to of the light bulbs are gone (1st and 2nd of the binary display) Does anybody know if those light assemblies are still around somewhere? Or maybe somebody has spares for sale/trade? Thanks Herbert Computer Museum of Nova Scotia From wonko at 4amlunch.net Thu May 29 08:06:00 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <3ED5324B.3040405@srv.net>; from kth@srv.net on Wed, May 28, 2003 at 04:03:55PM -0600 References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> <20030528153001.D27509@zill.net> <3ED520D7.5090709@srv.net> <20030528163037.I27509@zill.net> <3ED5324B.3040405@srv.net> Message-ID: <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 04:03:55PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > Odd. If you can still Control/E to the prompt, try 'N' for several > instructions > to see if it is stuck in VMS's idle loop (cycles through a very small number > of instructions). If it is, it might not be seeing any interrupts. oops, forgot to mention that part. if i Ctrl/E from within the running simulator, it crashes sim and takes the controlling xterm/rxvt with it. i should try doing this telnetting in from a remote machine i think. > If Control/E doesn't work, then things are really hosed. it works, just not well. ;) > Sometimes that's a good thing. It may actually be pointing right at IMHO that's *always* a good thing. it has really opened my eyes to the fact that your average opensource coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 platform that they have really started to make stupid mistakes and even stupider assumptions about things. the most common assumption is that a void pointer and an int pointer is the same size. which just happens to be true in 32-bit land, but totally hoses those of us who live in 64-bit land. hell, even the code that autoconf generates for tests makes that assumption. > the problem, but hiding it under a mass of additional messages. how do i build just the VAX portion? 'make vax' does nothing, and 'make VAX' says everything is up to date. that's one ugly makefile, so it's kinda hard to interpret for someone who hasn't messed with makefiles in years. > I've done it using the 'N' command (next instruction), trying to trace out > bad instructions, and using gdb. It's very tedius when you are looking for > one instruction out of a million executed that are wrong. first i need to get it to not crash completely. ;) -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From jrice54 at charter.net Thu May 29 08:10:00 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: AV11--Need advice. In-Reply-To: <000001c3254e$6bf41160$c500000a@sherrill> References: <000001c3254e$6bf41160$c500000a@sherrill> Message-ID: <3ED60592.7080909@charter.net> Hi Sherrill, As of this day, we have replaced over 100 AV11 and 12 AV18's with the leaking caps. We have also had one BP-6 from ABit that had the same problem. all but 3 of these have been on customer premises. We have been replacing them with A-Open AX-34U and MX36LE boards. These boards use the same Via chipset as the affected Shuttle boards, so driver and HAL issues have been minimal. Shuttle has been of no assistance and this has been at our expense. Needless to say, Shuttle has been removed from our vendor list. The no-cost out of warranty replacement policy has cost us some money but has slavaged customer good will. We provide a loaner machine while the replacement is being done at our shop. Since the loaners are 2.5ghz P4's we have sold several loaners to people who didn't want to give up the faster machine when repairs are completed. Ours have been running Win98 or Win2k and have processor speeds from 800-933 P3's. We never supported or sold Celerons. Good luck with your replacements. James Sherrill wrote: >I ran across your 11/4/02 post about leaking capacitors. We have two >(so far) PCs afflicted. What scares the crap out of me is that we have >a number of them at customers as voicemail servers. You said you >replaced with AV22 and AV18, and we'd like to find out if that'll work >for us. I also read at overclockers how to replace capacitors. I >believe both the PCs are 700 mhz Celeron running Windows XP. > > > >I'd appreciate any advice you can give us. > > > >Sherrill Lowrey > >sherrill@frontiercomputer.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 08:19:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> Message-ID: <20030529131840.33026.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hechinger wrote: > it has really opened my eyes to the fact that your average opensource > coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 platform that they have > really started to make stupid mistakes and even stupider assumptions > about things. They used to say the same thing about BSD/VAX coders... > the most common assumption is that a void pointer and an int pointer is > the same size. which just happens to be true in 32-bit land... The charge in 1983 was "char * and an int are the same size..." > ... but totally hoses those of us who live in 64-bit land. The hosed parties 20 years ago tended to be 16-bit users/admins. > hell, even the code that autoconf generates for tests makes that > assumption. I realize that Linux on x86 is a hugely popular platform for Open Source work, but there's plenty of UltraSPARC machines out there... surely you don't need an Alpha to shatter these assumptions -ethan (whose Alpha is running VMS, not UNIX; because it can) From pat at purdueriots.com Thu May 29 08:27:00 2003 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Brian Hechinger wrote: > oops, forgot to mention that part. if i Ctrl/E from within the running > simulator, it crashes sim and takes the controlling xterm/rxvt with it. If the xterm/rxvt seems 'hosed' but is still running, try running "reset", which should reset the terminal to 'sane' characteristics. I'm guessing the problem is that the keyboard gets set to 'noecho' or 'raw' mode or something. > i should try doing this telnetting in from a remote machine i think. Or, if possible, try it from a virtual/serial console - without a windowing system in the way. > IMHO that's *always* a good thing. it has really opened my eyes to the fact > that your average opensource coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 > platform that they have really started to make stupid mistakes and even > stupider assumptions about things. the most common assumption is that a > void pointer and an int pointer is the same size. which just happens to be Do you mean void * and int (not a pointer)? All pointers should be the same size... (Sorry, I'm being pedantic.) > true in 32-bit land, but totally hoses those of us who live in 64-bit land. > > hell, even the code that autoconf generates for tests makes that assumption. > > > the problem, but hiding it under a mass of additional messages. > > how do i build just the VAX portion? 'make vax' does nothing, and 'make VAX' > says everything is up to date. that's one ugly makefile, so it's kinda hard > to interpret for someone who hasn't messed with makefiles in years. First, you need a "BIN" subdir, and then "make BIN/vax". I think I remember reading this in a readme somewhere... I usually end up just being lazy and running a "make all". Anyways, who knows when I'll want to play with an IBM 1401 sim :). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From tombohon at earthlink.net Thu May 29 08:47:00 2003 From: tombohon at earthlink.net (Tom Bohon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030528185551.00a94c80@mail.earthlink.net> Has anyone heard of a conversion of a Kaypro 10 to use a 3.5" floppy drive? From toby at russellsharpe.co.uk Thu May 29 08:47:56 2003 From: toby at russellsharpe.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Interdata Model 74 Message-ID: Hi, I recently picked up a PDP11/34 for restoration from a surplus dealer and spotted at the same time an Interdata Model 74 gathering dust. Needless to say, I managed to get this as part of the deal.. I'd like to try to restore this back to working condition, but my various searches for information on early Interdata models seems to have born little fruit. Does anyone have any information, documentation, engineering diagrams for this machine? Thanks, Toby From wonko at 4amlunch.net Thu May 29 08:54:00 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <20030529131840.33026.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com>; from erd_6502@yahoo.com on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 06:18:40AM -0700 References: <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> <20030529131840.33026.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030529093441.A2056@zill.net> On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 06:18:40AM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > They used to say the same thing about BSD/VAX coders... all those unix people are evil!!! *ducking!* > The charge in 1983 was "char * and an int are the same size..." equally as evil. ;) > The hosed parties 20 years ago tended to be 16-bit users/admins. i wasn't lucky enough to get to deal with 16-bit machines on a regular basis. i do now, but not then. ;) > I realize that Linux on x86 is a hugely popular platform for Open Source > work, but there's plenty of UltraSPARC machines out there... surely > you don't need an Alpha to shatter these assumptions i wonder how many people build things 64-bit though? it's very easy to build and run 32-bit software on sparc64 and MIPS64. i do, but i'm one of those weirdos. ;) > (whose Alpha is running VMS, not UNIX; because it can) all my alphas run VMS. my octane only runs IRIX because no-one has ported VMS to it yet. ;) -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From wonko at 4amlunch.net Thu May 29 08:54:28 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: ; from pat@purdueriots.com on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 08:32:10AM -0500 References: <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> Message-ID: <20030529093700.B2056@zill.net> On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 08:32:10AM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > If the xterm/rxvt seems 'hosed' but is still running, try running "reset", > which should reset the terminal to 'sane' characteristics. I'm guessing > the problem is that the keyboard gets set to 'noecho' or 'raw' mode or > something. no, the xterm/rxvt crashes along with simh. i need to start a new xterm. > Or, if possible, try it from a virtual/serial console - without a > windowing system in the way. that's not a bad idea, maybe i'll drag a vt into work next week and do that. > Do you mean void * and int (not a pointer)? All pointers should be the > same size... (Sorry, I'm being pedantic.) no, you are right to be pedantic. i was wrong, you corrected me. i would have done the same to you. ;) > First, you need a "BIN" subdir, and then "make BIN/vax". I think I > remember reading this in a readme somewhere... I usually end up just > being lazy and running a "make all". Anyways, who knows when I'll want to > play with an IBM 1401 sim :). brian@marvin$ gmake BIN/vax gmake: *** No rule to make target `BIN/vax'. Stop. i wouldn't mind making everything all the time, but it takes a while, and i'm impatient. ;) -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu May 29 09:30:00 2003 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Interdata Model 74 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030529092816.01969270@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Toby, Excellent! You may find some info here: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/interdata/ Would you please put up some pics of the Interdata? --tom At 09:52 AM 5/29/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > >I recently picked up a PDP11/34 for restoration from a surplus dealer and >spotted at the same time an Interdata Model 74 gathering dust. Needless to >say, I managed to get this as part of the deal.. > >I'd like to try to restore this back to working condition, but my various >searches for information on early Interdata models seems to have born little >fruit. > >Does anyone have any information, documentation, engineering diagrams for >this machine? > > >Thanks, >Toby From vaxman at earthlink.net Thu May 29 09:35:01 2003 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer Info In-Reply-To: <001f01c32406$325bda30$c800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030529083314.M55395-100000@hades.crwolff.com> I apologize if this has been posted before, but I found a website which has many papers on the Apollo guidance computer, including some of the design documentation. http://hrst.mit.edu/groups/apollo/bibliography/q-and-a.tcl?topic_id=11&topic=Document%20Library Clint From alexandre.dulaunoy at ael.be Thu May 29 09:35:59 2003 From: alexandre.dulaunoy at ael.be (Alexandre Dulaunoy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: DecServer 700 - WWENG2.SYS image Message-ID: Dear All, We have received a lot of old DecServer 700 but we are looking for the WWENG2.SYS image ;-) We have looked around the old digital ftp server, but there is only the pr0801eng.sys (not really useful). Where can we get the WWENG2.SYS image for the DecServer ? What is the software licensing for this image ? Is it linked to hardware or was it a separate product from Digital ? Thanks a lot. adulau -- -- Alexandre Dulaunoy (adulau) -- http://www.foo.be/ -- http://pgp.ael.be:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x44E6CBCD -- "Knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance -- that we can solve them" Isaac Asimov From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu May 29 09:55:01 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: DecServer 700 - WWENG2.SYS image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Alexandre Dulaunoy wrote: > We have received a lot of old DecServer 700 but we are looking for the > WWENG2.SYS image ;-) Hmm... I have a WWENG1.SYS for the 700-16, but can't find a WWENG2.SYS file here. I can send it for you to try, though. > Where can we get the WWENG2.SYS image for the DecServer ? What is the > software licensing for this image ? Is it linked to hardware or was it > a separate product from Digital ? Most of their firmware and load images are copyrighted to DEC, and, often, nowhere to be found :) If anyone has a copy of the WWENG2.SYS file, please drop me a copy for the archives? Cheers, Fred From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 29 09:55:47 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 lights? In-Reply-To: References: <006301c325b8$16891a80$0200000a@p166mmx> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030529105529.513f0c2e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I don't know anything about Minivacs but we have a BIG surplus store here locally that carries handreds of different kinds of bulbs. If you can send me a working bulb so that I can get the shape, size, crurrent, etc from I may be able to match it up. If you can't send a bulb then send a good close up picture long with the voltage and current and I'll see what I can find. Joe At 09:56 AM 5/29/03 -0400, you wrote: >I recently bought a Minivac 601. What a cool computer! Everything seems to >work except to of the light bulbs are gone (1st and 2nd of the binary >display) Does anybody know if those light assemblies are still around >somewhere? Or maybe somebody has spares for sale/trade? > >Thanks >Herbert >Computer Museum of Nova Scotia From vaxzilla at jarai.org Thu May 29 10:03:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... In-Reply-To: <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > [...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time > period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software > development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive > business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I > don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years > which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older > (macos on top of Unix). Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing world for it.) One trivial example... nextstep% file /bin/ls /bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k) os-x% file /bin/ls /bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic number they chose for Mach-O binaries: nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002 os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000 0002 Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP. Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools, netinfo, and Mach, and... The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X. NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both accessible and acceptable to the masses. -brian. From kth at srv.net Thu May 29 10:07:01 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030527141102.F3291@zill.net> <3ED3D677.6040402@srv.net> <20030528153001.D27509@zill.net> <3ED520D7.5090709@srv.net> <20030528163037.I27509@zill.net> <3ED5324B.3040405@srv.net> <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> Message-ID: <3ED62B9C.8050807@srv.net> Brian Hechinger wrote: >On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 04:03:55PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > >>Odd. If you can still Control/E to the prompt, try 'N' for several >>instructions >>to see if it is stuck in VMS's idle loop (cycles through a very small number >>of instructions). If it is, it might not be seeing any interrupts. >> >> > >oops, forgot to mention that part. if i Ctrl/E from within the running >simulator, it crashes sim and takes the controlling xterm/rxvt with it. > > I don't know why it would take the xterm with it. Odd that. [Sounds of grasping at straws] Memory corruption might be occurring somewhere. Wonder if one of the memory monitors, like ElectricFence, would yield useful information. Don't know whats available on your system. >i should try doing this telnetting in from a remote machine i think. > > > >>If Control/E doesn't work, then things are really hosed. >> >> > >it works, just not well. ;) > > > >>Sometimes that's a good thing. It may actually be pointing right at >> >> > >IMHO that's *always* a good thing. it has really opened my eyes to the fact >that your average opensource coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 >platform that they have really started to make stupid mistakes and even >stupider assumptions about things. the most common assumption is that a >void pointer and an int pointer is the same size. which just happens to be >true in 32-bit land, but totally hoses those of us who live in 64-bit land. > >hell, even the code that autoconf generates for tests makes that assumption. > > That assumption started in the first versions of Unix on the PDP11, and still occurrs in new code. It's part of what was once called the "all the worlds a VAX" mentality. Make sure you have all warnings turned on when you compile (look for the CC definition), under gcc the option would be '-Wall'. Maybe it will point at something obvious. >>the problem, but hiding it under a mass of additional messages. >> >> > >how do i build just the VAX portion? 'make vax' does nothing, and 'make VAX' >says everything is up to date. that's one ugly makefile, so it's kinda hard >to interpret for someone who hasn't messed with makefiles in years. > > 'make BIN/vax' should work (case is important here). All the binaries are created in the BIN subdirectory. The makefile should actually be fairly simple (as I wrote the original version). Skip past the top of the makefile (which figures out your OS and if network deviced should be configured) and the major part of it is just lists of files for each emulator. Something like it became necessary when the emulators started sharing code for devices, and manually typing the compile line was getting too complicated. >>I've done it using the 'N' command (next instruction), trying to trace out >>bad instructions, and using gdb. It's very tedius when you are looking for >>one instruction out of a million executed that are wrong. >> >> > >first i need to get it to not crash completely. ;) > > That's always a good start. ;=) From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 29 10:27:00 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> I know mac osx came from nextstep. I was just pointing out apple tried the macos on top of unix thing before. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Chase" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:01 AM Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > [...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time > > period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software > > development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive > > business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I > > don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years > > which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older > > (macos on top of Unix). > > Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is > about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware > business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used > their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly > taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing > world for it.) > > One trivial example... > > nextstep% file /bin/ls > /bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k) > > os-x% file /bin/ls > /bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc > > They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic > number they chose for Mach-O binaries: > > nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 > 0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002 > > os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 > 0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000 0002 > > Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they > revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP. > Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools, > netinfo, and Mach, and... > > The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a > throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had > to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their > customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly > bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X. > > NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their > systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both > accessible and acceptable to the masses. > > -brian. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 10:28:01 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: All The World's A VAX (was Re: simh help?) In-Reply-To: <20030529093441.A2056@zill.net> Message-ID: <20030529152734.35695.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hechinger wrote: > On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 06:18:40AM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > They used to say the same thing about BSD/VAX coders... > > all those unix people are evil!!! *ducking!* > > > The charge in 1983 was "char * and an int are the same size..." > > equally as evil. ;) Some historical commentary on the "all the world's a VAX" syndrome: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/amiga-dev/1994/07/13/0007.html http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~omri/Humor/ten-commandments.html (cf #10) http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?1910 (exhaustive!) I remember pulling down lots of programs from comp.sources.unix and comp.sources.games, both for building in their native environment and for porting to VMS/AmigaDOS/whatever-was-in-front-of-me-at-the- moment. There were some things that I never did get working (but I did get Pinfocom, Larn and Ultra-Larn working on non-UNIXy boxen). -ethan From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 29 10:44:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? Message-ID: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brian Hechinger" ---snip--- > >i wonder how many people build things 64-bit though? it's very easy to build >and run 32-bit software on sparc64 and MIPS64. i do, but i'm one of those >weirdos. ;) > ---snip--- Hi We make a 64 bit/32 bit x86 machine. Dwight From ernestls at attbi.com Thu May 29 10:55:00 2003 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... In-Reply-To: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: I always feel very melancholy whenever I hear of someone leaving the hobby and giving up their prized systems, especially when I consider how much time and effort it took to build those collections. The money factor aside, it's a hobby fueled by pleasure and fun, and it's sad to hear that someone has to give that up. I can't predict what emotions Jim will feel once he finishes finding new homes for his computers but I sincerely hope that in the end, he'll feel that it wasn't had painful as he thought it might be. I know that I personally felt wonderfully unburdened after I got rid of most of my old computer collection, but then again, I didn't have anything extremely rare or difficult to replace if I ever decided that wanted one again. Jim, I hope that by the end of the year, you've successfully found new homes for your collection and that things will start to to be better in your personal life. In the mean time, just hang in there don't forget that you have a family that cares about you. E. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 29 11:04:00 2003 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87D@308server.308dole.com> from Kelly Leavitt at "May 27, 2003 09:39:18 pm" Message-ID: <200305291602.JAA04295@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > I have the 3.1 or 3.2 system, scriptsit, dev system, mbasic, and filePro or > Profile16. How urgent are your needs? I only have them available on 5.25" > disks (follow the directions on Frank Durda's site to connect up a 5.25" > drive). I can probably get to copying them in mid to late June. Just remind > me in a few weeks. > > Anyone else collect the 6000's? I have a (currently non-functional, but probably repairable) 6000. I'd really love to have the dev system. If I get it up and running again, I have an accounting system and COBOL runtime (no compiler (un)fortunately) on the HD. To reduce the time involved in making copies, would you be willing to make disk images, and put them somewhere accessible? That way those of us with an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 29 11:10:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not NEXTSTEP. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "TeoZ" To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:18 AM Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > I know mac osx came from nextstep. I was just pointing out apple tried the > macos on top of unix thing before. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Chase" > To: "Classic Computers" > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:01 AM > Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > > > [...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time > > > period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software > > > development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive > > > business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I > > > don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years > > > which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older > > > (macos on top of Unix). > > > > Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is > > about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware > > business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used > > their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly > > taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing > > world for it.) > > > > One trivial example... > > > > nextstep% file /bin/ls > > /bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k) > > > > os-x% file /bin/ls > > /bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc > > > > They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic > > number they chose for Mach-O binaries: > > > > nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 > > 0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002 > > > > os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 > > 0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000 0002 > > > > Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they > > revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP. > > Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools, > > netinfo, and Mach, and... > > > > The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a > > throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had > > to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their > > customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly > > bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X. > > > > NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their > > systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both > > accessible and acceptable to the masses. > > > > -brian. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 29 11:33:01 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> from Jay West at "May 29, 3 11:05:27 am" Message-ID: <200305291644.JAA15958@floodgap.com> > Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not > NEXTSTEP. It's NEXTStep. The userland, however, is BSD. (From the console of a dual 1.25GHz Power Mac G4 running OS X.2.6.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- You can make it illegal, but you can't make it unpopular. ------------------ From wonko at 4amlunch.net Thu May 29 11:34:00 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com>; from dwightk.elvey@amd.com on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 08:43:28AM -0700 References: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20030529121745.E2056@zill.net> mostly irrelevant. you see, MIPS has been 64-bit going on what, 10 years now? there has been plenty of time to get the proverbial head out of the proverbial a**. it's great that x86 is finally catching up, and maybe this will get more people writing 64-bit friendly code, but that doens't help us now with the code that has already been written. -brian On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 08:43:28AM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Brian Hechinger" > ---snip--- > > > >i wonder how many people build things 64-bit though? it's very easy to build > >and run 32-bit software on sparc64 and MIPS64. i do, but i'm one of those > >weirdos. ;) > > > ---snip--- > > Hi > We make a 64 bit/32 bit x86 machine. > Dwight -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Thu May 29 11:37:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ED63606.27C30DB5@comcast.net> Jay West wrote: > > Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not > NEXTSTEP. > > Jay West Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of Next(Open)Step, Mach kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too. Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references to NetBSD in some of them. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Thu May 29 11:42:00 2003 From: ClassicComputers at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: QBUS board ID time In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030527225038.031ecc90@pop.freeserve.net> References: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost> Message-ID: <3ED64333.3952.AA3CFB7@localhost> Thanks Rob, Jochen, Pete for your help. Baydel tech support emailed me back quite quickly to let me know that the card is a "CTS-11", and was designed to replace a TS11 + controller with a QIC drive (there was a disconnected QIC drive in the Dyna5 chasis, but it was so corroded, dirty & yuk that it's in the heading for the bin pile) The chap at Baydel (Leatherhead, UK) said he'd been there for years (25 or more) and had seen them through making whole PDP11 systems (apart from DEC CPUs) to their current range of NAS & SCSI RAID etc cheers greg From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 29 11:47:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX References: <200305291644.JAA15958@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <00a901c32601$c1166900$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Odd.... Apple hired Jordan Hubbard (lead developer for FreeBSD) to head up OSX development, and I was quite sure I saw an article where Jordan stated the kernel and underlying OS was in fact FreeBSD. I'll check into this... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: OSX > > Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not > > NEXTSTEP. > > It's NEXTStep. The userland, however, is BSD. (From the console of a dual > 1.25GHz Power Mac G4 running OS X.2.6.) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- You can make it illegal, but you can't make it unpopular. ------------------ From Innfogra at aol.com Thu May 29 11:51:01 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC Message-ID: <49.2edcf0a1.2c0793f3@aol.com> > That way those of us with > an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. > How do you do this? I am interested. What floppy controller do you use? I am assuming it is for the ISA bus? Anything for a PCI bus. Anything for EISA, I am keeping one EISA bus system. Paxton Astoria, OR From wonko at 4amlunch.net Thu May 29 11:51:32 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? (new question) In-Reply-To: <20030529121745.E2056@zill.net>; from wonko@4amlunch.net on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 12:17:45PM -0400 References: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> <20030529121745.E2056@zill.net> Message-ID: <20030529123328.H2056@zill.net> new question. can i change the image i'm pointing a CD-ROM drive at on the fly? or do i need to restart the simulator? -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 29 12:00:01 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED63606.27C30DB5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00bb01c32603$9aa3f6a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> David wrote... > Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of Next(Open)Step, Mach > kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too. > Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references > to NetBSD in some of them. That means nothing. There's lots of references to other BSD's and other unix flavors in the man pages for most unices... From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 29 12:09:00 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: >Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not >NEXTSTEP. OS X at the bottom is MACH, the BSD interface has largely been updated using FreeBSD/Darwin. I'm not going to bother with the dates, but here is a rough timeline.... -Apple buys NeXT -Steve Jobs takes over -Prelude to Rhapsody released at WWDC (it's really OPENSTEP 4.2, runs on NeXT, x86, and select HP & Sun) -Rhapsody DR1 (or whatever it was called) release, offers true Mac OS Classic interface on x86 hardware! Very cool! -More Developer releases -Aqua Interface Released (YUCK!) -More Developer releases -Public Beta -10.0 Released -Various . Upgrades -10.1 Released as free download -Various . Upgrades -10.2 Released as Pay Upgrade -Various . Upgrades and now at 10.2.6 I was really excited about Mac OS X *UNTIL* the Aqua mess. Then I got 10.0 and it didn't support classic Appletalk servers (my OpenVMS server serves up data via classic Appletalk), plus all my apps were Classic so I never made the switch. I tried 10.1.something and found it supported classic Appletalk servers, but I still didn't switch. Finally for some reason I bought 10.2 about a month and half ago, and I've been using it since. The classic environment works really well, and I'm slowly switching the apps I use most to be native OS X apps. Also, it now has a usable X-Windows implementation that Apple provides. The main thing I don't like about it, is that it seems to be a HUGE memory hog! As in I've apparently got basically all of my 756MB physical memory full, and 4.5GB of virtual memory used! One thing I do like is that surfing on my G4/450 using Safari is about as fast as using IE under XP on my 1.6Ghz Pentium IV! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu May 29 12:16:01 2003 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX Message-ID: And it's anti-Christian evolutionism too! ;) http://crossspot.net/objective/propaganda.html -----Original Message----- From: Jay West [mailto:jwest@classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:46 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OSX Odd.... Apple hired Jordan Hubbard (lead developer for FreeBSD) to head up OSX development, and I was quite sure I saw an article where Jordan stated the kernel and underlying OS was in fact FreeBSD. I'll check into this... Jay From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 29 12:23:00 2003 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: <200305291602.JAA04295@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "May 29, 2003 09:02:55 am" Message-ID: <200305291722.KAA05277@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > I have the 3.1 or 3.2 system, scriptsit, dev system, mbasic, and filePro or > > Profile16. How urgent are your needs? I only have them available on 5.25" > > disks (follow the directions on Frank Durda's site to connect up a 5.25" > > drive). I can probably get to copying them in mid to late June. Just remind > > me in a few weeks. > > > > Anyone else collect the 6000's? > > I have a (currently non-functional, but probably repairable) 6000. I'd > really love to have the dev system. If I get it up and running again, I > have an accounting system and COBOL runtime (no compiler (un)fortunately) > on the HD. > > To reduce the time involved in making copies, would you be willing to make > disk images, and put them somewhere accessible? That way those of us with > an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. Oh yeah, I think I have Multiplan, too. Eric From brian.roth at fnfg.com Thu May 29 12:25:01 2003 From: brian.roth at fnfg.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC Message-ID: John has been making these for years. Try this link. http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Brian. Brian Roth Network Administrator A+ N+ CNA CCNA Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com >>> Innfogra@aol.com 05/29/03 12:48PM >>> > That way those of us with > an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. > How do you do this? I am interested. What floppy controller do you use? I am assuming it is for the ISA bus? Anything for a PCI bus. Anything for EISA, I am keeping one EISA bus system. Paxton Astoria, OR ***************************************************************************** ********************* The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ***************************************************************************** ********************* BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:roth, brian TEL;WORK:2186 ORG:;Network Services TEL;PREF;FAX:716-625-0012 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:brian.roth@fnfg.com N:roth;brian X-GWUSERID:1372 END:VCARD From kth at srv.net Thu May 29 12:28:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? (new question) References: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> <20030529121745.E2056@zill.net> <20030529123328.H2056@zill.net> Message-ID: <3ED64C82.5040502@srv.net> Brian Hechinger wrote: >new question. can i change the image i'm pointing a CD-ROM drive at on the >fly? or do i need to restart the simulator? > >-brian > > Linux seems to lock the drive door when in use, so that you cannot open it. You should be able to 'Control/E', 'detach', (swap cd's), 'attach', then 'c'ontinue. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu May 29 12:32:01 2003 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC In-Reply-To: <49.2edcf0a1.2c0793f3@aol.com> Message-ID: >> That way those of us with >> an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. >> > >How do you do this? I am interested. > >What floppy controller do you use? I am assuming it is for the ISA bus? >Anything for a PCI bus. > >Anything for EISA, I am keeping one EISA bus system. Look in the comp.os.cpm FAQ. It's Q14. There's not much to it. Just a matter of making a converter cable to go from the 34 pin floppy connector on any "PC" compatible floppy controller to the 50 pin connector on the 8 inch drive. You may have to play around with the drive select and the head load/motor on signals to get it to work just right. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 29 12:36:00 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 29, 3 10:08:37 am" Message-ID: <200305291747.KAA16056@floodgap.com> > Finally for some reason I bought 10.2 about a month and half ago, and I've > been using it since. The classic environment works really well, and I'm > slowly switching the apps I use most to be native OS X apps. Also, it now > has a usable X-Windows implementation that Apple provides. The main thing > I don't like about it, is that it seems to be a HUGE memory hog! > As in I've apparently got basically all of my 756MB physical memory full, > and 4.5GB of virtual memory used! One thing I do like is that surfing on my > G4/450 using Safari is about as fast as using IE under XP on my 1.6Ghz > Pentium IV! I like Jag a lot. I don't mind Aqua, although I think it's overkill for an interface (it really gulps and swallows system resources -- I think the OS X bloat is mostly from that). My only complaint is some of my classic AppleTalk servers won't talk to it (in particular my netatalk-based NetBSD server, ironically a Mac IIci, gets an "unsupported AFP version" error). However, it works in the Chooser if I fire up Classic. The worst part was to do filesharing with my Apple Network Server, I have to use SMB!!! (runs to toilet retching) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Ergo, cogito sum! (Cogito.) ------------------------------------------------ From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Thu May 29 12:46:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED63606.27C30DB5@comcast.net> <00bb01c32603$9aa3f6a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3ED646A2.FB69E3AE@comcast.net> Jay West wrote: > > David wrote... > > Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of Next(Open)Step, Mach > > kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too. > > Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references > > to NetBSD in some of them. > > That means nothing. There's lots of references to other BSD's and other unix > flavors in the man pages for most unices... True, but I have seen many (can't recall where right now) articles/comments about NetBSD stuff being used in OSX... And considering how NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD share & compare code at times... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 29 12:50:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com>; from jwest@classiccmp.org on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 18:05:27 CEST References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <001e01c325f5$94457120$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20030529185349.D248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.29 18:05 Jay West wrote: > Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not > NEXTSTEP. The NeXT Mach kernel brought a BSD Unix personality to the wedding. So Apple took various user land tools vom *BSD to make it a "complete Unix". (AFAIK) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From allain at panix.com Thu May 29 12:58:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items References: Message-ID: <00be01c3260b$93d1c5c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> In the what the hell is it category, I have been given the following items: Motorola 3261 Codex Modem 3 rj11's, 2 minidin8's, DB25 Motorola SW56-II UDS 1 rj45, 2 DB25's and ADtran 2gen TSU 3 rj45's, a 26 pin connector (to T1?) Are these of any use to me? Can I use them to replace my 56K modem? Could I do standalone PPP networking directly from a phoneline to a10BT hub? John A. From wonko at 4amlunch.net Thu May 29 13:13:01 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:58 2005 Subject: simh help? (new question) In-Reply-To: <3ED64C82.5040502@srv.net>; from kth@srv.net on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 12:08:02PM -0600 References: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> <20030529121745.E2056@zill.net> <20030529123328.H2056@zill.net> <3ED64C82.5040502@srv.net> Message-ID: <20030529135610.Q2056@zill.net> On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 12:08:02PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > Linux seems to lock the drive door when in use, so that you cannot open it. this is netbsd, and with ISO images, not actual cds. can images be swapped on the fly? > You should be able to 'Control/E', 'detach', (swap cd's), 'attach', then > 'c'ontinue. ugly, but luckily cd-rom access isn't something i'll need to do a lot of. ;) -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu May 29 13:28:00 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC References: Message-ID: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to> >brian roth wrote: > John has been making these for years. > Try this link. http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html > >>> Innfogra@aol.com 05/29/03 12:48PM >>> > > That way those of us with > > an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. > How do you do this? I am interested. > What floppy controller do you use? I am assuming it is for the ISA bus? > Anything for a PCI bus. > Anything for EISA, I am keeping one EISA bus system. > Paxton > Astoria, OR Jerome Fine replies: What might have been missed during this exchange is that for 8" floppy media, DEC had two densities. The DEC RX01 had the same identical format as the IBM 8" floppy. The RX01 held 494 blocks of 512 bytes each. As far as I know, there were 4 sectors per block of 128 bytes each. That is what John's board at dbit handles - again as far as I know. DEC also used a drive call an RX02. Those media contained 988 blocks of 512 bytes each per 8" floppy. It is possible to switch between the two densities using a DEC RX02 drive which can read BOTH. But the DEC RX01 drive can read only floppy media that have 494 blocks of 512 bytes each. John, if you are reading this, it would be best if you could confirm - also even better if you could explain why they hardware to read the DEC RX02 8" floppy media is not available on a PC. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 29 13:44:00 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030528185551.00a94c80@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Tom Bohon wrote: > Has anyone heard of a conversion of a Kaypro 10 to use a 3.5" floppy drive? A '720K' 3.5" is trivial. And any of the "quad density" BIOS mods (Micro Cornucopia, Advent, etc.) will handle the software issues (80 v 40 track). But using 1.4M requires hardware modifications to support a 500K bits per second data transfer rate instead of the "stock" "normal" 250K. From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu May 29 13:56:00 2003 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87D@308server.308dole.com> Message-ID: on 5/27/03 8:39 PM, Kelly Leavitt at CCTalk@catcorner.org wrote: > Anyone else collect the 6000's? Or does anyone have a Model 16? I was thinking about it the other day, and I've never actually heard of anyone having one. -- Owen Robertson From vaxzilla at jarai.org Thu May 29 14:20:00 2003 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: <00a901c32601$c1166900$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <200305291644.JAA15958@floodgap.com> <00a901c32601$c1166900$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > Odd.... Apple hired Jordan Hubbard (lead developer for FreeBSD) to > head up OSX development, and I was quite sure I saw an article where > Jordan stated the kernel and underlying OS was in fact FreeBSD. I'll > check into this... NEXTSTEP was a effectively a NeXT customized CMU Mach microkernel with lots of 4.3BSD mixed in with it. OS X is a revamped version of Mach with FreeBSD (and other more modern BSDs) mixed into it. I'm sure Jordan Hubbard was very instrumental in helping to update the OS to benefit from FreeBSD's code, but OS X is definitely not FreeBSD at its core. It's Mach. I mean, even the name of /kernel/ file is "mach" or rather "/mach_kernel" under OS X. Also, the OS X hostinfo command still reports the Mach version information as was done on NEXTSTEP systems: On my iMac: % hostinfo Mach kernel version: Darwin Kernel Version 6.6: Thu May 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC Kernel configured for up to 2 processors. 1 processor is physically available. Processor type: ppc7450 (PowerPC 7450) Processor active: 0 Primary memory available: 256.00 megabytes. Default processor set: 70 tasks, 141 threads, 1 processors Load average: 0.52, Mach factor: 0.60 On my NeXT cube: % hostinfo Mach kernel version: NeXT Mach 3.3: Tue Jul 13 10:33:44 PDT 1999; root(rcbuilder):mk-171.14.obj~22/RC_m68k/RELEASE_M68K Kernel configured for a single processor only. 1 processor is physically available. Processor type: MC680x0 (68040) Processor speed: 25 MHz Processor active: 0 System type: 2 Board revision: 0x0 Primary memory available: 64.00 megabytes. Default processor set: 38 tasks, 66 threads, 1 processors Load average: 0.40, Mach factor: 0.83 The information about OS X being FreeBSD with a pretty Apple GUI on top of it tends to come from some misguided slashdotters who lack historical perspective. That's not to slight FreeBSD's contributions, but they're better considered as "renovation work" to what had already been in place for a decade. -brian. From spc at conman.org Thu May 29 14:34:00 2003 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <20030529084945.D9187@zill.net> from "Brian Hechinger" at May 29, 2003 08:49:45 AM Message-ID: <20030529193329.287D966C4@tower.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Brian Hechinger once stated: > > IMHO that's *always* a good thing. it has really opened my eyes to the fact > that your average opensource coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 > platform that they have really started to make stupid mistakes and even > stupider assumptions about things. the most common assumption is that a > void pointer and an int pointer is the same size. which just happens to be > true in 32-bit land, but totally hoses those of us who live in 64-bit land. A void * and an int, or an int *? Generally speaking, one can cast any type of pointer into a void *, and cast a void * back to any other type of pointer (without casts! At least in ANSI C; I think in C++ you need a cast). But if you mean casting a pointer (of any kind) into an int (or unsigned long, or whatever) then yes, I can see where that would definitely lead to problems. -spc (The only time my code failed on a 64-bit system, there was a bug in the Standard C library of that system that I triggered ... ) From spc at conman.org Thu May 29 14:42:01 2003 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 29, 2003 08:32:10 AM Message-ID: <20030529194108.AC1A766C4@tower.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Patrick Finnegan once stated: > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, Brian Hechinger wrote: > > > IMHO that's *always* a good thing. it has really opened my eyes to the fact > > that your average opensource coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 > > platform that they have really started to make stupid mistakes and even > > stupider assumptions about things. the most common assumption is that a > > void pointer and an int pointer is the same size. which just happens to be > > Do you mean void * and int (not a pointer)? All pointers should be the > same size... (Sorry, I'm being pedantic.) No, they don't have to be the same size; I think I recall that char * on certain PDPs were slightly larger than say, an int * (because pointers only pointed to word boundaries, yet you could pack several characters per word so extra storage was needed to store the offset into a word for a char *). And don't forget the whole mess with near and far pointers in the DOS world (technically those were extentions but ... ). Given the following declaration: void *vp1; void *vp2; char *cp1; char *cp2; int *ip; The following should hold true: vp1 = cp1; cp2 = vp1; assert(cp1 == cp2); /* should be fine */ While the following may or may not work: vp1 = cp1; ip = vp1; vp2 = ip; cp2 = vp2; assert(cp1 == cp2) /* may or may not hold */ -spc (Don't have the C Standard handy ... ) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 29 14:42:30 2003 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... In-Reply-To: References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <20030529124102.R27379@agora.rdrop.com> Update: the initial catalog page is now online. Expect frequent updates as I sort thru the shelves... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From spc at conman.org Thu May 29 14:46:00 2003 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <3ED62B9C.8050807@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at May 29, 2003 09:47:40 AM Message-ID: <20030529194454.ED26766C4@tower.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Kevin Handy once stated: > > That assumption started in the first versions of Unix on the PDP11, and > still occurrs in new code. It's part of what was once called the > "all the worlds a VAX" mentality. > > Make sure you have all warnings turned on when you compile (look for > the CC definition), under gcc the option would be '-Wall'. Maybe it will > point at something obvious. Also try: gcc -Wall -ansi -pedantic Be prepared for *lots* of warnings. -spc (I mean, lots) From Innfogra at aol.com Thu May 29 14:53:01 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC Message-ID: <135.20573455.2c07becb@aol.com> Thanks for the tip on the D Bit FDADAP. I will probably get one as I think it meets my criteria. I am not particular interested in reading DEC RX01 & 02s. Those I will pass onto the list as I find them. My main interest is in CPM systems and disks of which I have several. Also I wonder if it will work with intel development system disks. Thanks again for the leads. I will look at the CPM FAQ too. Paxton Astoria, OR From aek at spies.com Thu May 29 14:59:01 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Interdata Model 74 Message-ID: <200305291959.h4TJxq18006528@spies.com> Does anyone have any information, documentation, engineering diagrams for this machine? -- I have the model 74 maint manual. I'll see about getting it uploaded to www.spies.com/aek/pdf/interdata. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 29 15:10:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Owen Robertson wrote: > on 5/27/03 8:39 PM, Kelly Leavitt at CCTalk@catcorner.org wrote: > > > Anyone else collect the 6000's? > > Or does anyone have a Model 16? I was thinking about it the other day, > and I've never actually heard of anyone having one. The closest I have is a Model 2, which was working when I stored it away. I never did much with it when I got it (mid 90s I think) due to a lack of software. I was able to obtain the TRSDOS disk via Tandy (only disk I have for the system), but I have no idea if they can still do that. I am still looking for a keyboard for my Model 2 if someone has one surplus to their needs... -Toth From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu May 29 15:10:30 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC References: <135.20573455.2c07becb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3ED668DC.46A9FA92@compsys.to> >Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the tip on the D Bit FDADAP. I will probably get one as I think it > meets my criteria. I am not particular interested in reading DEC RX01 & 02s. > Those I will pass onto the list as I find them. > My main interest is in CPM systems and disks of which I have several. > Also I wonder if it will work with intel development system disks. > Thanks again for the leads. I will look at the CPM FAQ too. > Paxton > Astoria, OR Jerome Fine replies: I seem to remember that you can read DEC RX01 floppy media using the dbit solution. But, I would obviously check with John to confirm this. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From marvin at rain.org Thu May 29 15:21:00 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: More Stuff for Auction at SYI Message-ID: <3ED66B70.4E2287E7@rain.org> I have listed some more stuff for auction over at http://www.sellyouritem.com. I have found quite a few DEC flip-chip and other boards that are being listed there in addition to other stuff of interest to listserver members. The area of main interest for list members is in the Classic Computer section at: http://www.sellyouritem.com/ListAuctions.html?CategoryID=1497 The things I am listing there are for 3 day auctions, and that should give everyone here a chance at them before they head over to (explatives deleted) Ebay. If you think the pricing is wrong, let me know as this was my best guess at reasonable pricing for list members. Again, the main idea behind putting them on SYI is to allow listmembers an equal chance at anything they might be interested in. I'm trying to list about 10 items/day there. Stuff that I will also be listing include a PDP-3L, Microvax, some DEC Disk Drive cartridges R????, and some other DEC cards that I have not identified yet. I *think* there are also several 11/34 cards that I have not listed yet, hopefully later today. ------------------------------------------- ebaY's Security Breach and Coverup http://www.auctionguild.com/generic110.html From donm at cts.com Thu May 29 15:25:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030528185551.00a94c80@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Tom Bohon wrote: > Has anyone heard of a conversion of a Kaypro 10 to use a 3.5" floppy drive? > I believe that Allison has done it on a non-HD Kaypro. - don From allain at panix.com Thu May 29 15:39:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: The final 'Garage' sale... References: <20030528110004.B69689@agora.rdrop.com> <000d01c3254d$6bbf1420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3ED57FF3.D5BAACD7@compsys.to> <000c01c32597$6f1a7480$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <20030529124102.R27379@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <005301c32622$0ecc00e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Re: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/ You might want to consider actually writing that letter to Bill Gates that you propose on the website. If you actually Did offer him a personal service at a cost to you some time back that he accepted then you have an advantage that 99.999% of Americans do not, and its worth an hour and a 37cent stamp to try a request. just my $.02 John A. I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act. -- Gilbert Keith Chesterton (1874-1936) From donm at cts.com Thu May 29 15:48:00 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> That way those of us with > >> an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. > >> > > > >How do you do this? I am interested. > > > >What floppy controller do you use? I am assuming it is for the ISA bus? > >Anything for a PCI bus. > > > >Anything for EISA, I am keeping one EISA bus system. > > Look in the comp.os.cpm FAQ. It's Q14. There's not much to it. > Just a matter of making a converter cable to go from the 34 pin > floppy connector on any "PC" compatible floppy controller to the Careful there! If the 8" disks involve any single density (FM) recording then just *any* floppy controller will not do. Look for one with a 37C65 chip or the NS 8743 chip, or a CompatiCard I or IV (hard to find). - don > 50 pin connector on the 8 inch drive. You may have to play around > with the drive select and the head load/motor on signals to get > it to work just right. From kth at srv.net Thu May 29 15:54:01 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030529193329.287D966C4@tower.conman.org> Message-ID: <3ED67CD5.6060201@srv.net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Brian Hechinger once stated: > > >>IMHO that's *always* a good thing. it has really opened my eyes to the fact >>that your average opensource coder has been so coddled by the whole gcc/x86 >>platform that they have really started to make stupid mistakes and even >>stupider assumptions about things. the most common assumption is that a >>void pointer and an int pointer is the same size. which just happens to be >>true in 32-bit land, but totally hoses those of us who live in 64-bit land. >> >> > > A void * and an int, or an int *? Generally speaking, one can cast any > Usually a * to an int, because on many systems an int and a pointer are the same size (all the world's a vax). :-P A lot of older code swaps pointers into/outof int's. >type of pointer into a void *, and cast a void * back to any other type of >pointer (without casts! At least in ANSI C; I think in C++ you need a >cast). But if you mean casting a pointer (of any kind) into an int (or >unsigned long, or whatever) then yes, I can see where that would definitely >lead to problems. > > -spc (The only time my code failed on a 64-bit system, there was a bug > in the Standard C library of that system that I triggered ... ) From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu May 29 16:13:00 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <3ED0518E.4030702@citem.org> <10305271839.ZM5883@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3ED677A7.7E922164@compsys.to> >Peter Turnbull wrote: > > On May 25, 7:15, Hans B Pufal wrote: > > No, but they can learn. I do EXACTLY that with a PDP-8/e cpu I drag > > around to show at school exhibitions. The first question I get, of > > course, is where is the screen and keyboard. I teach the kids binary, > > than, with the aid of a small program left in the core we calculate the > > > mean of a sequence of numbers entered in binary. And not a screen or > > keybaord in sight. This demo ALWAYS gets good reviews.... > Exactly what I did with my 8-year-old niece at Christmas. She's really > into "sums" and arithmetic at the moment, so when I wanted to play with > my 8/E, I taught her a little about binary, showed her how to read > octal off the switches and lights, and we added some numbers. She > loved it. Jerome Fine replies: With my grandchildren, I discovered a way to make binary numbers interesting. We started with the concept that each finger represented a ZERO or a power of two. All fingers down was ZERO. Baby Finger UP was ONE. Ruby Ring UP was TWO Both Baby Finger and Ruby Ring was THREE. Tobby Tall UP (by itself) was FOUR Tobby Tall and Baby Finger was FIVE Tobby Tall and Ruby Ring was SIX Tobby Tall and Ruby Ring and Baby Finger was SEVEN Peter Pointer (by itself) was EIGHT Peter Pointer and Baby Finger was ... We rarely got beyond this point since everyone was laughing so much by then, by it made the game a lot of fun. If they were able to grasp the meaning of powers of two and get to EIGHT, then they already knew what having Peter Pointer and Baby Finger were supposed to mean! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From marvin at rain.org Thu May 29 16:15:01 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: More Stuff for Auction at SYI References: <3ED66B70.4E2287E7@rain.org> Message-ID: <3ED6783F.190345E1@rain.org> BTW, the DEC card descriptions are *terse* as I would expect anyone interested in them to know what they are. Just trying to keep stuff within the listserver for now :). Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I have listed some more stuff for auction over at > http://www.sellyouritem.com. I have found quite a few DEC flip-chip and > other boards that are being listed there in addition to other stuff of > interest to listserver members. The area of main interest for list > members is in the Classic Computer section at: > > http://www.sellyouritem.com/ListAuctions.html?CategoryID=1497 From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 29 17:14:00 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC Message-ID: <200305292213.PAA13245@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Innfogra@aol.com > >Thanks for the tip on the D Bit FDADAP. I will probably get one as I think it >meets my criteria. I am not particular interested in reading DEC RX01 & 02s. >Those I will pass onto the list as I find them. > >My main interest is in CPM systems and disks of which I have several. Hi As was mentioned, not all controllers do single density. MFM double density is no problem. There are a number of programs out there that handle differing sector counts and sector sizes. You could also write your own. You'd need to know how to setup the DMA and the floppy registers. It isn't real hard but it is easiest if you have some examples. > >Also I wonder if it will work with intel development system disks. If your disk are single density and you have a controller that handles single density then you are OK. Intel's double density was M2FM and not MFM, for the 8 inch disk. About the only way to read this was with an Intel M2FM controller. As far as I know, these only existed on multibus boards. Dwight > >Thanks again for the leads. I will look at the CPM FAQ too. > >Paxton >Astoria, OR From jpdavis at gorge.net Thu May 29 17:37:00 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: TRS80 mod 4 ver1 video/memory problems Message-ID: <3ED68ABB.5030104@gorge.net> Hi, I recently picked up a model 4 ver 1 with a problem. The system originally worked and booted, after moving the system it started to display random characters on power up and failed to boot.. I removed socketed ICs and cleaned the connectors. The system now displays a blank screen on power up ( although the drives spin, and it could be booting ). If I disconnect the FD controller from the main board, the system jumps into basic ( with video ) and seems to operate. Print fre(0) returns somthing over 48K with the fd disconnected. Any hints? Jim Davis. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu May 29 18:11:00 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP11 References: <20030529214114.83424.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ED69351.840F7975@compsys.to> >Tony Manzo wrote: > Hello, If you have any PDP hardware/software that you wish to sell, > please email me. I have opened a "coffee house" - I hate the term > Cyber Cafe - that cateres to the technical and scientific, mainly > students and computer vets. We put the legacy systems online and > allow/encourage program development on the original equipment. I would > hate for such equipment to go unused, so if you can help, please let > me know. Thanks. Tony Manzo > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). Jerome Fine replies: I am attempting to track down just how Tony obtained my e-mail address plus if anyone else received the above e-mail. Also if anyone has heard of Tony and if he is legitimate? And does anyone know where Tony is located - which city? Tony Manzo As far as I know, the only possible way Tony could have obtained my e-mail address was through cctalk@classiccmp.org since I first started to use it only a week ago. OR someone who is aware of my PDP-11 addiction gave it to him? In either case, I don't have an objection. But if there has been any hacking, then I would like to know about that aspect! In any case, if I am receiving spam via cctalk@classiccmp.org, then others need to be warned! If not, then I want to reply. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu May 29 18:16:00 2003 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Thinline Floppy Problem Message-ID: What does it mean when the light on a thinline floppy in a Tandy 6000 repeatedly blinks to the pattern: ... When I put a disk in, the drive makes healthy noises, but the light just keeps blinking like stated above, and the system seems unable to detect that there's a disk in the drive. -- Owen Robertson From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu May 29 18:26:01 2003 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: TRS80 mod 4 ver1 video/memory problems Message-ID: <200305292325.QAA13343@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jim There is a chance that the first crash also damaged the system info on your boot disk. Have you tried using another disk? You could also try putting the disk controller in but put tape over the select line( not sure what is involved here without a schematic ) and tie this line ( lines? ) so that the drive doesn't access. The idea is to see if something in the controller is loading the bus. If this is the case, BASIC won't boot. You could then isolate a pin at a time until you found the failure. Small pieces of tape work well for isolating edge connectors. That is about as far as I'm willing to make any guesses. Dwight >From: "Jim Davis" > >Hi, >I recently picked up a model 4 ver 1 with a problem. The system originally >worked and booted, after moving the system it started to display random >characters >on power up and failed to boot.. I removed socketed ICs and cleaned >the connectors. >The system now displays a blank screen on power up ( although the drives >spin, and >it could be booting ). If I disconnect the FD controller from the main >board, the >system jumps into basic ( with video ) and seems to operate. Print >fre(0) returns >somthing over 48K with the fd disconnected. Any hints? >Jim Davis. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 29 18:52:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: QBUS board ID time In-Reply-To: "Greg Elkin" "Re: QBUS board ID time" (May 29, 17:28) References: <3ED3938E.13089.25B7A3@localhost> <3ED64333.3952.AA3CFB7@localhost> Message-ID: <10305292114.ZM28722@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 29, 17:28, Greg Elkin wrote: > The chap at Baydel (Leatherhead, UK) said he'd been there for years > (25 or more) and had seen them through making whole PDP11 systems > (apart from DEC CPUs) to their current range of NAS & SCSI RAID etc That was probably David Vallance. He was really helpful. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 29 20:02:01 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in" (May 29, 17:12) References: <001401c3224e$8007e3a0$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> <3ED0518E.4030702@citem.org> <10305271839.ZM5883@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3ED677A7.7E922164@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10305300146.ZM29040@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 29, 17:12, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > With my grandchildren, I discovered a way to make binary > numbers interesting. We started with the concept that each > finger represented a ZERO or a power of two. > > All fingers down was ZERO. > > Baby Finger UP was ONE. > > Ruby Ring UP was TWO > > Both Baby Finger and Ruby Ring was THREE. Very good! I've seen a similar proposal written by Fred Pohl in a book called "Digits and Dastards". The last two items in this collection (of mostly SF short stories) are entitled "How To Count On Your Fingers" and "On Binary digits and Human Habits" (copyright 1856 and 1962 respectively!). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 29 20:23:01 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: <10305300146.ZM29040@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > With my grandchildren, I discovered a way to make binary > > numbers interesting. We started with the concept that each > > finger represented a ZERO or a power of two. > > All fingers down was ZERO. > > Baby Finger UP was ONE. > > Ruby Ring UP was TWO > > Both Baby Finger and Ruby Ring was THREE. ... and for some reason some people get upset when you get to four From CCTech at catcorner.org Thu May 29 20:24:00 2003 From: CCTech at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87F@308server.308dole.com> > To reduce the time involved in making copies, would you be willing to make > disk images, and put them somewhere accessible? That way those of us with > an 8" hooked to a PC could make 8" disks. OK. I've got an ftp server lined up, can even put them on CD's and duplicate a batch on scrap discs (don't ask, I was trying to calibrate a termal CD printer). The big question: What is the best tool to create the disk images? Rawread/rawwrite? dd? cpio? something else? The easiest thing for me is either dd under linux or raw read under MSDOS (like the linux boot discs). I have lots of 5.25" disc drives laying around. All I have to do is hook one up. I'd rather not create the 8" discs myself. The media on them seems to peel off onto the head if you have cheap ones. Then I have to take the drive apart, clean the head... since I've already copied most down to 5.25 (I still have to do mbasic, multiplan, and Profile 16+), I will make images from the 5.25" discs as time permits and put them up on a public ftp server for a while. Kelly From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 30 07:16:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC In-Reply-To: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to>; from jhfinexgs2@compsys.to on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 20:27:26 CEST References: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20030530132426.L248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.29 20:27 Jerome H. Fine wrote: > John, if you are reading this, it would be best if you could > confirm - also even better if you could explain why they > hardware to read the DEC RX02 8" floppy media is > not available on a PC. I am not John, but this may be the explanation: The RX02 uses double density only for the data inside the sector. The sector header is (mostly) the same as a RX01 sector header and it is rcorded in single density. Result: A RX01 holds 128 Bytes per sector, a RX02 holds 256 bytes per sector, thus doubling the capacity. So the floppy controller has to switch the data rate from sector header to sector data... A really, uhhm, "interresting" design. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 30 07:33:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items In-Reply-To: <00be01c3260b$93d1c5c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > In the what the hell is it category, > I have been given the following items: > > Motorola 3261 Codex Modem > 3 rj11's, 2 minidin8's, DB25 > Motorola SW56-II UDS > 1 rj45, 2 DB25's > and > ADtran 2gen TSU > 3 rj45's, a 26 pin connector (to T1?) > > Are these of any use to me? > Can I use them to replace my 56K modem? > Could I do standalone PPP networking directly > from a phoneline to a10BT hub? Probably not. They're leased-line modems. The AdTran unit is probably some sort of CSU for a T-1 as you speculate. Get another one and you can hook-up your own local T-1 ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 30 07:34:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Owen Robertson wrote: > on 5/27/03 8:39 PM, Kelly Leavitt at CCTalk@catcorner.org wrote: > > > Anyone else collect the 6000's? > > Or does anyone have a Model 16? I was thinking about it the other day, and > I've never actually heard of anyone having one. I do believe I have one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dwoyciesjes at comcast.net Fri May 30 08:05:00 2003 From: dwoyciesjes at comcast.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items References: Message-ID: <3ED7568C.90D78092@comcast.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, John Allain wrote: > > > In the what the hell is it category, > > I have been given the following items: > > > > Motorola 3261 Codex Modem > > 3 rj11's, 2 minidin8's, DB25 > > Motorola SW56-II UDS > > 1 rj45, 2 DB25's > > and > > ADtran 2gen TSU > > 3 rj45's, a 26 pin connector (to T1?) > > > > Are these of any use to me? > > Can I use them to replace my 56K modem? > > Could I do standalone PPP networking directly > > from a phoneline to a10BT hub? > > Probably not. They're leased-line modems. The AdTran unit is probably > some sort of CSU for a T-1 as you speculate. Get another one and you can > hook-up your own local T-1 ;) > > -- That reminds me... I have a pair of CSU/DSU's for sale, if anybody wants them. Dowty Information Systems, manuals included... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri May 30 08:09:00 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC References: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to> <20030530132426.L248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3ED757C4.8922D95A@compsys.to> >Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On 2003.05.29 20:27 Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > John, if you are reading this, it would be best if you could > > confirm - also even better if you could explain why they > > hardware to read the DEC RX02 8" floppy media is > > not available on a PC. > I am not John, but this may be the explanation: > The RX02 uses double density only for the data inside the sector. The > sector header is (mostly) the same as a RX01 sector header and it is > rcorded in single density. Result: A RX01 holds 128 Bytes per sector, a > RX02 holds 256 bytes per sector, thus doubling the capacity. So the > floppy controller has to switch the data rate from sector header to > sector data... A really, uhhm, "interresting" design. > tsch??, > Jochen > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Jerome Fine replies: YES!!! So when under the command in RT-11: FORMAT DY0:/SINGLE all that happens is that the density bit in the sector header is set to "Single Density", but a complete LLF (Low Level Format) is not done, in fact can't be done, using a DEC RX02 drive. Likewise, the RT-11 command: FORMAT DY0:/DOUBLE (the default) sets the density bit in the sector header to "Double Density" and again can't be done with a DEC RX02 unless the floppy media is already LLF. On the other hand, in my experience, in some cases the floppy media can be "somewhat" damaged. Under some circumstances, is is possible to use the RT-11 FORMAT command to restore those bad sectors so that they function correctly. Of course, if the LLF is totally wiped out for any given sector, I guess that nothing can be done. Warning - if the FORMAT command is used, all current information on the floppy is destroyed - save anything that is still useful BEFORE the FORMAT command. NOTE that most 3rd party RX01/RX02 controller/drive pairs for DEC PDP-11 hardware were able to do the complete LLF for RX01/RX02 media. In fact, I seem to remember that the controller was not required - the drive contained the ability to do a LLF off-line. This was not the RT-11 FORMAT command, but a complete LLF. The same situation occurred with the DEC RX50 floppy media. The DEC RX50 drive could NOT perform an LLF. However, by the time that DEC allowed the RX33 on the RQDX3, DEC had switched to industry standard HD PC 1.2 MByte floppy drives and media with 2400 blocks. The first time I used RT-11 to perform a FORMAT command on an industry standard UNFORMATTED PC HD 1.2 MByte floppy, AND IT WORKED, I think I almost fainted I was so shocked. The question that is still unanswered is IF the board that dbit has available that supports the RX01 floppy media on a PC with the appropriate 8" floppy drive CAN ALSO support an RX02 media? I seem to remember that the answer is NO! But perhaps John can confirm this answer? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 08:17:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC In-Reply-To: <20030530132426.L248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20030530131647.28347.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jochen Kunz wrote: > On 2003.05.29 20:27 Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > John, if you are reading this, it would be best if you could > > confirm - also even better if you could explain why they > > hardware to read the DEC RX02 8" floppy media is > > not available on a PC. > I am not John, but this may be the explanation: > The RX02 uses double density only for the data inside the sector. The > sector header is (mostly) the same as a RX01 sector header and it is > rcorded in single density. Result: A RX01 holds 128 Bytes per sector, a > RX02 holds 256 bytes per sector, thus doubling the capacity. So the > floppy controller has to switch the data rate from sector header to > sector data... A really, uhhm, "interresting" design. That is, essentially, the case. A DEC drive can take an IBM-formatted floppy (RX01 format) and scribble the right things on it to make it an RX02 floppy, but only third-party drives (Data Systems Designs, et al.) can start with a blank floppy. Unlike "modern" machines, there is no "floppy chip" in an RX01 or RX02 drive - it's all done with TTL, PROMs and discrete components. When floppy controller chips became popular, they didn't spend a lot of time on "oddball" formats. The data-portion of the RX02 is what a PeeCee FDC can't digest. It *might* be possible to program an Amiga to digest RX02 disks (it also lacks a dedicated FDC - it uses a 4096-bit shift register in the sound chip to import the data, and (for MFM formats) miniterms applied by the graphics co-processor to translate back and forth to plain binary data). The Catweasel should be able to handle it, but, as has been hashed out here before, you'd have to roll your own with it; the software support is severely lacking compared to the capability of the hardware. -ethan From kth at srv.net Fri May 30 09:20:00 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: simh help? References: <20030529194454.ED26766C4@tower.conman.org> Message-ID: <3ED771EB.9050303@srv.net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Kevin Handy once stated: > > >>That assumption started in the first versions of Unix on the PDP11, and >>still occurrs in new code. It's part of what was once called the >>"all the worlds a VAX" mentality. >> >>Make sure you have all warnings turned on when you compile (look for >>the CC definition), under gcc the option would be '-Wall'. Maybe it will >>point at something obvious. >> >> > > Also try: > > gcc -Wall -ansi -pedantic > > Be prepared for *lots* of warnings. > > For large values of lots, or small values of infinity! Actually, most of the '-Wall' messages in simh were fixed some time ago, but many more may have crept back in. > -spc (I mean, lots) From wonko at 4amlunch.net Fri May 30 09:38:01 2003 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <3ED771EB.9050303@srv.net>; from kth@srv.net on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 08:59:55AM -0600 References: <20030529194454.ED26766C4@tower.conman.org> <3ED771EB.9050303@srv.net> Message-ID: <20030530102128.G2436@zill.net> On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 08:59:55AM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > Actually, most of the '-Wall' messages in simh were fixed some time > ago, but many more may have crept back in. i don't have gcc installed on the octane, so i can't try gcc wall, but MIPSpro complains a LOT about the source code. i can send you a copy of the output if you are interested. -brian -- "I'd say don't quit your day job, but you're pretty lousy at that too." -Bender From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri May 30 09:56:00 2003 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 - Advice Needed Message-ID: This should tell you most of what you need to know... I did my password hacking on a 5362, but there should be analagous tools on the 5364 PC console. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6m4rat85bf4hi45udaj05u5j6pm48e887g%404ax.com&output=gplain Good luck! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drido at optushome.com.au Fri May 30 12:05:00 2003 From: drido at optushome.com.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20030531030342.01067da4@mail.optushome.com.au> Recently I picked up a Wang Professional Computer. Can't find a model number on it anywhere. It 8086 based, 256KB RAM, 360KB FDD, 10MB HDD. It runs MS-DOS 2.11, but it is not PC compatible. A long time before I got this machine I found some software for it. A box of original disks all marked "Wang Professional Computer". It includes 2 versions of the integrated word processor, MS Chart, DOS3.2 and Windows 1.03. Both versions of the word processor run, ms chart bombs saying I have the wrong graphics card. Neither DOS 3.2 nor Windows 1.03 will install. DOS 3.2 just hangs the machine, Windows 1.03 bombs with an interrupt error. The disks seem to read okay. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or have working copies? I vaugely remember seeing pictures of this machine in the Windows launch issue of Byte. Though it would be cool to have windows running on something other than a PC clone. I think I've even got a copy Balance of Power for Win 1.x around here somewhere. From rhahm at nycap.rr.com Fri May 30 12:34:01 2003 From: rhahm at nycap.rr.com (RHahm) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: HP 80 Series Software Message-ID: Clear DayDoes anyone have any software or "Pacs" for the the HP 85 or 87 they would be willing to share. I could send you either 3.5 or 5.25 floppies if you could copy to discs. Also does anyone have a copy of the HP 85 User's Library? Thanks, Bob [demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Clear Day Bkgrd.JPG] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 30 13:10:00 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: 8" drive hooked up to a PC" (May 30, 9:08) References: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to> <20030530132426.L248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3ED757C4.8922D95A@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10305301909.ZM29520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 30, 9:08, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > On 2003.05.29 20:27 Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > John, if you are reading this, it would be best if you could > > > confirm - also even better if you could explain why they > > > hardware to read the DEC RX02 8" floppy media is > > > not available on a PC. > > > > I am not John, but this may be the explanation: > > The RX02 uses double density only for the data inside the sector. The > > sector header is (mostly) the same as a RX01 sector header and it is > > rcorded in single density. > NOTE that most 3rd party RX01/RX02 controller/drive pairs > for DEC PDP-11 hardware were able to do the complete > LLF for RX01/RX02 media. In fact, I seem to remember that > the controller was not required - the drive contained the ability > to do a LLF off-line. This was not the RT-11 FORMAT > command, but a complete LLF. No, that's backwards. In the case of DEC RX01 or RX02 with a DEC controller, the controller card (in the QBus or Unibus) is fairly dumb, it's just an interface. The "smart" stuff is in the drive enclosure. The controller passes a FORMAT command to the drive, the drive chunters away and executs it, and reports back to the controller when it's done. In the case of third-party controllers with "industry standard" drives, the controller is "smart" and the drive is dumb. The controller does the formatting, and sends control signals and a data/clock bitstream to the drive, so you can't do anything > The same situation occurred with the DEC RX50 floppy media. > The DEC RX50 drive could NOT perform an LLF. It works differently than an RX01/RX02. In fact it works exactly like the third-party RX01/RX02 case above, except that DEC saw fit not to include formatting routines in the RQDX1/RQDX2 controller. The RX50 drive is an oddly-engineered variant of an industry-standard 5.25" dual floppy, with almost exactly the same control/data signals. > However, by the time that DEC allowed the RX33 on the RQDX3, > DEC had switched to industry standard HD PC 1.2 MByte floppy > drives and media with 2400 blocks. Yes, the RQDX3 includes firmware that can do the formatting. However the layout it creates is fixed, and not useful for an RX50 (which has almost exactly the same hardware interface as an RX33). > The question that is still unanswered is IF the board that dbit > has available that supports the RX01 floppy media on a PC > with the appropriate 8" floppy drive CAN ALSO support > an RX02 media? I seem to remember that the answer is NO! Correct. The answer is "no", for exactly the reason Jochen describes, and indeed John's webpage says so. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri May 30 13:12:00 2003 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B87F@308server.308dole.com> from Kelly Leavitt at "May 29, 2003 09:23:31 pm" Message-ID: <200305301809.LAA27828@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > OK. I've got an ftp server lined up, can even put them on CD's and duplicate > a batch on scrap discs (don't ask, I was trying to calibrate a termal CD > printer). The big question: > > What is the best tool to create the disk images? Rawread/rawwrite? dd? cpio? > something else? The easiest thing for me is either dd under linux or raw > read under MSDOS (like the linux boot discs). I have lots of 5.25" disc > drives laying around. All I have to do is hook one up. dd under linux should do the job just fine. You might even be able to mount these disks under linux, but I'm not sure why you'd want to. > I'd rather not create the 8" discs myself. The media on them seems to peel > off onto the head if you have cheap ones. Then I have to take the drive > apart, clean the head... since I've already copied most down to 5.25 (I > still have to do mbasic, multiplan, and Profile 16+), I will make images > from the 5.25" discs as time permits and put them up on a public ftp server > for a while. Great, thanks! Eric From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 30 13:13:04 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? References: <3.0.3.32.20030531030342.01067da4@mail.optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <001101c326d6$e2bb7a20$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> That was a machine that came out before compaq clones the IBM bios. Dont think it is anywhere near pc compatible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Ido" To: Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:03 PM Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? > Recently I picked up a Wang Professional Computer. Can't find a model > number on it anywhere. It 8086 based, 256KB RAM, 360KB FDD, 10MB HDD. > > It runs MS-DOS 2.11, but it is not PC compatible. > > A long time before I got this machine I found some software for it. A box > of original disks all marked "Wang Professional Computer". It includes 2 > versions of the integrated word processor, MS Chart, DOS3.2 and Windows > 1.03. Both versions of the word processor run, ms chart bombs saying I > have the wrong graphics card. Neither DOS 3.2 nor Windows 1.03 will > install. DOS 3.2 just hangs the machine, Windows 1.03 bombs with an > interrupt error. The disks seem to read okay. > > Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or have working copies? > > I vaugely remember seeing pictures of this machine in the Windows launch > issue of Byte. Though it would be cool to have windows running on something > other than a PC clone. I think I've even got a copy Balance of Power for > Win 1.x around here somewhere. From CyndeM at vulcan.com Fri May 30 13:36:00 2003 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: Categorization and description was RE: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in Message-ID: I'm finding many aspects of this discussion very compelling. It got me to wonder some things. How would you categorize and describe classic computer items? Is there an accepted descriptive benchmark in the collectors discipline? Or better still, how would you *like* to see it done? What would be an appropriate descriptive level of a flip chip, a unibus terminator, a cable, a power cable, a backplane, a cabinet part? If you had a museum or archival collection of these DEC things, what would you want to know about them that would make them useful to you? Cynde Moya, MLIS -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 3:04 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in > And worse to the categorisation and descritpion. We are in the process > of inventorying our collection, the PDP-9 is described as "a cabinet xx > cm tall, xx cm wide, xx cm deep with orange and black panels and an > operator console". That neatly describes a museums view of a PDP-9 !! > I am currently in a battle royal to get this point of view chamged. Argh!! I knew I disliked most museums for a good reason :-)... This is simply rediculous. A PDP9 is a PDP9 no matter what cabinet it's installed in, of even if it's jsut loose backplanes and PSUs... Mind you, I once saw a list of valves (vacuum tubes) that one museum was offering to another. The list had a column of 'condition'. No, it didn't give the emission and gm figures. It didn't even say if the heater was continous, and the getter silver (not white, which would indicate air had leaked into the valve). No, it described how clean the glass was... > I recently recoverd an entire PDP-9 OS thought long lost from three > DECtapes found in a batch of over 100. Had "policy" been applied at > least 90 of those tapes would have been trashed on the grounds that "we > already have ten of those". The obvious extension of this is that art galleries should throw out all but 10 of their paintains on the ground that they 'already have 10 pieces of canvas with paint on them' :-)... And that libraries only need to keep 10 books ('we already have 10 sets of bound pieces of paper with ink on them'). Somebody is going to have to educate museum curators about the importance and meaning of technical and computer artefacts... -tony From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri May 30 14:18:00 2003 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC References: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to> <20030530132426.L248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200305301917.PAA1102810@shell.TheWorld.com> >So when under the command in RT-11: >FORMAT DY0:/SINGLE >all that happens is that the density bit in the sector header is set >to "Single Density", but a complete LLF (Low Level Format) >is not done, in fact can't be done, using a DEC RX02 drive. >Likewise, the RT-11 command: >FORMAT DY0:/DOUBLE (the default) >sets the density bit in the sector header to "Double Density" >and again can't be done with a DEC RX02 unless the floppy >media is already LLF. If you have a DSD disk unit with a floppy, that will truly format the floppy. The only disk drive/system from DEC which could format a floppy is the PDT-11/150 (!) This was discussed at some length on a DEC-interal mailing list following the sale of PDTs to employees. It turns out that the PDT writes all the formatting info for any track it writes, so if you write to the entire disk, it will be formatted single density. You can then take the disk to another drive (RX02) and change the density to double. At one point when I had an office on ML5-5 at DEC, I had a floppy which was held to a filing cabinet by a large disk magnet. When people wanted proof, I would take it down and demonstrate it as being unreadable, then would format it in a PDT-11/150 I had, and then proceed to use it... >The same situation occurred with the DEC RX50 floppy media. >The DEC RX50 drive could NOT perform an LLF. There was, however, a ROM which was available (at least I had one at one point) which allowed formatting of RX50 media on a PRO series machine... Megan From drido at optushome.com.au Fri May 30 14:27:01 2003 From: drido at optushome.com.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:37:59 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? In-Reply-To: <001101c326d6$e2bb7a20$cd2b1941@neo.rr.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20030531030342.01067da4@mail.optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20030531052644.010e0a5c@mail.optushome.com.au> At 02:11 PM 5/30/03 -0400, you wrote: >That was a machine that came out before compaq clones the IBM bios. >Dont think it is anywhere near pc compatible. I know it's not PC compatible (well there is a PC compatibilty card for it, but that's not what I am referring to). What I'd like to find are the versions of DOS 3.2 (possible) and Windows 1.03 (unlikely) that are native to this machine. Weren't there other non-PC versions of Windows 1.x? DEC Rainbow? Tandy 2000? I'm sure I've read about those versions, seen screenshots even. Never actually seen any of them running in the flesh though. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dr. Ido" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:03 PM >Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? > > >> Recently I picked up a Wang Professional Computer. Can't find a model >> number on it anywhere. It 8086 based, 256KB RAM, 360KB FDD, 10MB HDD. >> >> It runs MS-DOS 2.11, but it is not PC compatible. >> >> A long time before I got this machine I found some software for it. A box >> of original disks all marked "Wang Professional Computer". It includes 2 >> versions of the integrated word processor, MS Chart, DOS3.2 and Windows >> 1.03. Both versions of the word processor run, ms chart bombs saying I >> have the wrong graphics card. Neither DOS 3.2 nor Windows 1.03 will >> install. DOS 3.2 just hangs the machine, Windows 1.03 bombs with an >> interrupt error. The disks seem to read okay. >> >> Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or have working copies? >> >> I vaugely remember seeing pictures of this machine in the Windows launch >> issue of Byte. Though it would be cool to have windows running on >something >> other than a PC clone. I think I've even got a copy Balance of Power for >> Win 1.x around here somewhere. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 30 14:52:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: HP 80 Series Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030530154937.3cf7cd7a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have some of the pacs but I don't have an 85 and drives set up right now. NO ONE has the HP 85 User's Library. It's been destroyed. I spent a lot of time tracking down the HP-85 User's Library and found that it was given (sold?) to someone in Oregon that continued to sell programs for a while. They later moved to Montana and left the library behind in a rental unit. There's been no trace of it since so we can only assume that it was scrapped by the unit owners. We've covered that here a couple of times already. It's a long story, check the archives. I do have a User's Library Catalog but it's much to big and flimsy to copy. As you've probably already found out, the HP-85 drives are mostly in-operable by now. The tapes also have some serious failures with age. I've managed to fix a few drives and I been able to read SOME of the tapes. But I found that the tapes usually fail COMPLETELY after a few uses. (Again see the archives) For several years I tried to get people to send me whatever tapes they had so that I could copy them to disk and preserve the SW but no one cooperated so I've given up. Joe At 01:34 PM 5/30/03 -0400, you wrote: >Clear DayDoes anyone have any software or "Pacs" for the the HP 85 or 87 >they would be willing to share. I could send you either 3.5 or 5.25 >floppies if you could copy to discs. Also does anyone have a copy of the HP >85 User's Library? > >Thanks, > >Bob > >[demime 1.01a removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Clear Day Bkgrd.JPG] From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 30 15:04:00 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: HP 80 Series Software References: <3.0.6.16.20030530154937.3cf7cd7a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00ad01c326e6$917c93a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Joe wrote... > I have some of the pacs but I don't have an 85 and drives set up right > now. NO ONE has the HP 85 User's Library. It's been destroyed. Hey, has anyone checked with the historical archives division of HP in (I forget, either palo alto or cupertino)?? Perhaps they have a copy in a vault somewhere? Plus, wasn't there an HP-85 sold on ebay a while back that mentioned "Huge user library of software" included? Might be worth an email... Jay West From david_comley at yahoo.com Fri May 30 15:12:00 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20030531052644.010e0a5c@mail.optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <20030530201113.92496.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com> Is the the green screen 'Wang Classic' computer ? If so, I don't believe that a Windows port was ever available for it. There were later Wang machines that supported Windows; these were PC clones. I had one of these around 1986/1987 that ran Windows 1.03 IIRC. There was also a port of the Wang Word Processing software that ran on the later PC compatible models. But for the Wang Classic I think you'd be limited to their flavour of MS-DOS due to the BIOS differences. Regards, Dave --- "Dr. Ido" wrote: > At 02:11 PM 5/30/03 -0400, you wrote: > >That was a machine that came out before compaq > clones the IBM bios. > >Dont think it is anywhere near pc compatible. > > I know it's not PC compatible (well there is a PC > compatibilty card for it, > but that's not what I am referring to). What I'd > like to find are the > versions of DOS 3.2 (possible) and Windows 1.03 > (unlikely) that are native > to this machine. > > Weren't there other non-PC versions of Windows 1.x? > DEC Rainbow? Tandy 2000? > > I'm sure I've read about those versions, seen > screenshots even. Never > actually seen any of them running in the flesh > though. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Dr. Ido" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:03 PM > >Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer > (not a PC clone)? > > > > > >> Recently I picked up a Wang Professional > Computer. Can't find a model > >> number on it anywhere. It 8086 based, 256KB RAM, > 360KB FDD, 10MB HDD. > >> > >> It runs MS-DOS 2.11, but it is not PC compatible. > >> > >> A long time before I got this machine I found > some software for it. A box > >> of original disks all marked "Wang Professional > Computer". It includes 2 > >> versions of the integrated word processor, MS > Chart, DOS3.2 and Windows > >> 1.03. Both versions of the word processor run, > ms chart bombs saying I > >> have the wrong graphics card. Neither DOS 3.2 > nor Windows 1.03 will > >> install. DOS 3.2 just hangs the machine, Windows > 1.03 bombs with an > >> interrupt error. The disks seem to read okay. > >> > >> Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or have working > copies? > >> > >> I vaugely remember seeing pictures of this > machine in the Windows launch > >> issue of Byte. Though it would be cool to have > windows running on > >something > >> other than a PC clone. I think I've even got a > copy Balance of Power for > >> Win 1.x around here somewhere. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri May 30 15:38:01 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: HP 80 Series Software Message-ID: > As you've probably already found out, the HP-85 drives are mostly > in-operable by now. The tapes also have some serious failures with age. > I've managed to fix a few drives and I been able to read SOME of the tapes. > But I found that the tapes usually fail COMPLETELY after a few uses. (Again > see the archives) For several years I tried to get people to send me > whatever tapes they had so that I could copy them to disk and preserve the > SW but no one cooperated so I've given up. I've got an HP 85 with a bad tape drive but with dozens of tapes. I'd be happy to lend those to you for archiving, etc. Right now they are in storage pending me moving into a new home (I hope), but once I recover them I'll get in touch with you if you're willing to set up to copy these. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 30 15:56:00 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: HP 80 Series Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20030530165639.4f77335e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:38 PM 5/30/03 -0700, you wrote: >> As you've probably already found out, the HP-85 drives are mostly >> in-operable by now. The tapes also have some serious failures with >age. >> I've managed to fix a few drives and I been able to read SOME of the >tapes. >> But I found that the tapes usually fail COMPLETELY after a few uses. >(Again >> see the archives) For several years I tried to get people to send me >> whatever tapes they had so that I could copy them to disk and >preserve the >> SW but no one cooperated so I've given up. > >I've got an HP 85 with a bad tape drive but with dozens of tapes. I'd >be happy to lend those to you for archiving, etc. > >Right now they are in storage pending me moving into a new home (I >hope), but once I recover them I'll get in touch with you if you're >willing to set up to copy these. > > Erik Klein Erik, Sure. Send them to me after you're finished with your move. I'll copy them (if they can be copied) and return them to you along with a copy of the SW on disks. Joe From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri May 30 16:16:00 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP11 References: <20030529214114.83424.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ED7C9EA.73C31F76@compsys.to> >Tony Manzo wrote: > Hello, If you have any PDP hardware/software that you wish to sell, > please email me. I have opened a "coffee house" - I hate the term > Cyber Cafe - that cateres to the technical and scientific, mainly > students and computer vets. We put the legacy systems online and > allow/encourage program development on the original equipment. I would > hate for such equipment to go unused, so if you can help, please let > me know. Thanks. Tony Manzo > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). Jerome Fine replies: I received the above PRIVATE e-mail from: Tony Manzo I am attempting to track down just how Tony obtained my e-mail address plus if anyone else received the above e-mail. Also if anyone has heard of Tony and if he is legitimate? And does anyone know where Tony is located - which city? As far as I know, the only possible way Tony could have obtained my e-mail address was through cctalk@classiccmp.org since I first started to use this random e-mail address just a week ago. OR someone who is aware of my PDP-11 addiction gave it to him? In either case, I don't have an objection. But if there has been any hacking, then I would like to know about that aspect! In any case, if I am receiving spam via cctalk@classiccmp.org, then others need to be warned as well! If not, then I want to reply. Has anyone else received such an e-mail? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri May 30 16:17:01 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: 8" drive hooked up to a PC References: <3ED6510E.8F80D853@compsys.to> <20030530132426.L248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <200305301917.PAA1102810@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <3ED7CA1A.93E3260A@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: > >So when under the command in RT-11: > >FORMAT DY0:/SINGLE > >all that happens is that the density bit in the sector header is set > >to "Single Density", but a complete LLF (Low Level Format) > >is not done, in fact can't be done, using a DEC RX02 drive. > >Likewise, the RT-11 command: > >FORMAT DY0:/DOUBLE (the default) > >sets the density bit in the sector header to "Double Density" > >and again can't be done with a DEC RX02 unless the floppy > >media is already LLF. > If you have a DSD disk unit with a floppy, that will truly > format the floppy. The only disk drive/system from DEC > which could format a floppy is the PDT-11/150 (!) Jerome Fine replies: I have an DSD unit with a floppy (DSD 880/30) and have performed an LLF on an RX02 media. But I did not know that the PDT-11/150 was also able to do an LLF as well. Thank you! However, does the PDT-11/150 use an actual DEC RX01 floppy drive or something a bit different? With the answer to this question, it should be possible to determine if the RX01 has some of the smarts to do an LLF, but when connected to a Qbus RX01 controller, the combination is not capable - OR DEC did not make public the command codes to cause the RX01 drive to do an LLF? > This was discussed at some length on a DEC-interal mailing > list following the sale of PDTs to employees. It turns out > that the PDT writes all the formatting info for any track it > writes, so if you write to the entire disk, it will be > formatted single density. Please confirm that the PDT-11/150 uses ONLY RX01 media. ALSO, is the device driver for the PDT-11/150 the PD.SYS file? I seem to remember that the PDT-11/150 did NOT have a hard drive, is that true? If the PDT-11/150 does have a hard drive, which hard drive and what is the name of the file for the device driver? > You can then take the disk to another drive (RX02) and change > the density to double. That was the essence of my reply above with the two different commands under RT-11 using a DEC RX02 floppy drive. What would be helpful is is you would confirm (or deny - since I am always making mistakes) that the FORMAT command under RT-11 for 8" floppy media on a Qbus/Unibus system ONLY sets the density bit in the sector header of the media. BUT, before that can be done, a successful LLF must occur with that media. The DSD 3rd party floppy drives were one method. You have confirmed that a PDT-11/150 is a second method. > At one point when I had an office on ML5-5 at DEC, I had a > floppy which was held to a filing cabinet by a large disk > magnet. When people wanted proof, I would take it down and > demonstrate it as being unreadable, then would format it in > a PDT-11/150 I had, and then proceed to use it... While I have no doubt that the PDT-11/150 can do an LLF on an 8" floppy media and your demonstration was evidence of that fact, I do not agree that it was proof. I have, on many occasions, had an 8" floppy which I could not read on a DEC RX02. It had already had an LLF, but all attempts to read the media were unsuccessful or unreadable. On a Qbus PDP-11/23 with a DEC RX02 drive, I used the RT-11 command: FORMAT DY0: and it was successful and I could again read the 8" media. So while the magnet would likely do a bulk erase, it is not proof that it was done and that an LLF was required - yes 99.9% of the time I would agree it would be necessary, but very rarely it might not. > >The same situation occurred with the DEC RX50 floppy media. > >The DEC RX50 drive could NOT perform an LLF. > There was, however, a ROM which was available (at least I had > one at one point) which allowed formatting of RX50 media on > a PRO series machine... You mentioned that a few years ago. Did the LLF process use the RT-11 command or was XXDP used? Since I can't remember if XXDP ran on a PRO350, I am curious. Also, I just remembered that a Rainbow could also do an LLF on an RX50????????????? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 17:35:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... In-Reply-To: <448992f94b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 28, 3 08:46:13 am Message-ID: > > > *still* won't boot to the FORTH interpreter. > > Argh!. There aren't that many chips in the machine... > I know... > I also know that the repairs to the through-hole plating for the main RAMs, > buffers and video RAMs are fine. > That leaves the possibility of: > A) Dead RAMs > B) Dead LS buffers > C) Dead ROMs Didn't you have a relatively high -ve voltage on a data line? If so, you might well have killed a buffer chip... > > Where are you in the country? I am not lending out any of my test gear (I > > depend on it too much!), but if it's physcially possible for us to get > > close together, I can have a quick look and wave some probes over it... > I'm in Leeds, West Yorkshire. Argh... Too far from me in London, then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 17:35:59 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030528084634.GI1775@oblina> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 28, 3 10:46:34 am Message-ID: > > As I said, most SMPSU faults are capacitors or power transistors :-) > One problem is obvious: The big 24000 uF capacitor is missing from one The value of that capacitor is not _too_ critical. 22000uF would be near enough, for exampkle. > brick and this brick was repaird bevore. There are some burned traces on > the PCB that where replaced with wire and solder long ago. Unfortunately > it looks like I will not get time for the PDP-11 this evening too. Some > local computer colectors are making a barbecue. :-)=20 You are lucky to have other local collectors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 17:37:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at May 28, 3 11:22:45 pm Message-ID: > I'm beginning to wonder... Does anyone know what clock frequency the Ace runs > at? The RAMs I'm using are Toshiba TMM214APL-1 (2114L-2) chips. The EPROMs > are Texas Instruments TMS2732s, part number TMS2732-45 -- 450nS rated. Is it > likely that the Ace is acting up because the ROMs aren't updating their data > outputs fast enough? By my reckoning, 1MHz = 1uS or 1000nS. 2MHz = 0.5uS or > 500nS. ISTR the Ace ran at 1.8432MHz, which should still be in spec for the This rather depends on how many clock cycles there are in a RAM cycle (or more precisely, between the time the last memory control signal is stable, and the time tha the data is read). This is not necessarily just one clock cycle. > ROMs... > I've just checked the address lines going to the RAMs. I now have a list of > which CPU pin connects to what RAM line. There are no shorts to Vcc or Gnd on > the board, so I think I can rule out a bus conflict, unless the inputs to the A short between 2 address or data lines? 2 chips enabled simultaneously (address decoder problem)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 17:37:43 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: TRS80 mod 4 ver1 video/memory problems In-Reply-To: <3ED68ABB.5030104@gorge.net> from "Jim Davis" at May 29, 3 03:33:31 pm Message-ID: > Hi, > I recently picked up a model 4 ver 1 with a problem. The system originally > worked and booted, after moving the system it started to display random > characters > on power up and failed to boot.. I removed socketed ICs and cleaned > the connectors. > The system now displays a blank screen on power up ( although the drives > spin, and > it could be booting ). If I disconnect the FD controller from the main > board, the > system jumps into basic ( with video ) and seems to operate. Print > fre(0) returns > somthing over 48K with the fd disconnected. Any hints? It sounds like the CPU board is basically (!) OK -- the ROM BASIC only uses 48K of the RAM (no matter how much you actually have fitted). When you reseated socketed chips, did you also do the ones on the FDC board? Have you checked -- carefully -- the ribbon cable between the CPU and FDC boards? I've had a lot of problems with those cables in M3s and M4s. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 17:39:01 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20030531052644.010e0a5c@mail.optushome.com.au> from "Dr. Ido" at May 31, 3 05:26:44 am Message-ID: > Weren't there other non-PC versions of Windows 1.x? DEC Rainbow? Tandy 2000? There was certainly a version for the HP150 (maybe HP150-II only). I have it. > > I'm sure I've read about those versions, seen screenshots even. Never > actually seen any of them running in the flesh though. I've tried it, but it's pretty unpleasant... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 17:42:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Categorization and description was RE: Collection policy was In-Reply-To: from "Cynde Moya" at May 30, 3 11:35:41 am Message-ID: > How would you categorize and describe classic computer items? Is there > an accepted descriptive benchmark in the collectors discipline? I think I'd it at the 'option' level. For example : PDP-9 processor with xxx DECtape controller and TU56 DECtape, xxxx serial interface, ... I'd give the version of any options where it really makes a big difference (such as the fact that the PDP11/45 processor had many changes and S/N 2000) -tony From jpdavis at gorge.net Fri May 30 19:16:01 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: TRS80 mod 4 ver1 video/memory problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED7F173.1070307@gorge.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Hi, >>I recently picked up a model 4 ver 1 with a problem. The system originally >>worked and booted, after moving the system it started to display random >>characters >>on power up and failed to boot.. I removed socketed ICs and cleaned >>the connectors. >>The system now displays a blank screen on power up ( although the drives >>spin, and >>it could be booting ). If I disconnect the FD controller from the main >>board, the >>system jumps into basic ( with video ) and seems to operate. Print >>fre(0) returns >>somthing over 48K with the fd disconnected. Any hints? >> >> > >It sounds like the CPU board is basically (!) OK -- the ROM BASIC only >uses 48K of the RAM (no matter how much you actually have fitted). > >When you reseated socketed chips, did you also do the ones on the FDC >board? Have you checked -- carefully -- the ribbon cable between the CPU >and FDC boards? I've had a lot of problems with those cables in M3s and M4s. > >-tony > > > The floppy cable is indeed fragile, Having been forced to use the same type on a project 20 some years ago. When I had it disassembled, I pulled the fdc controller, burnished the leads, cleaned the socket and the fdc I/F connector on the cpu board with 90% isoprop. I'll check cable continuity and fdc lead to controller trace. Thanks, Jim. From stevenaleach at mac.com Fri May 30 19:35:01 2003 From: stevenaleach at mac.com (Steve Leach) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Altair: The saga continues. Message-ID: <81DBD728-92FF-11D7-A61E-000393AF4F78@mac.com> Just replaced the capacitor on my 8800b front panel only to find that my power supply is defunct. 18 volt lines have output, but that's it. Checked voltage regulator pins on CPU card, 12 volts on the lower regulator, nil on the upper :-(. It should be interesting to watch the 8800 on ebay, it's got 4 days left. For almost two days (long enough to get my hopes up...:-(. ) I was the high bidder but now it's up to $1000. I wonder how sick this one will get? Ahh well, someday I will own an 8800! From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 30 22:37:00 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: TRS80 mod 4 ver1 video/memory problems Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > When you reseated socketed chips, did you also do the ones on the FDC > board? Have you checked -- carefully -- the ribbon cable between the CPU > and FDC boards? I've had a lot of problems with those cables in M3s and > M4s. Speaking of which, whats best to replace these with? Both my model 3 and model 4 suffer from bad cables. -Toth From drido at optushome.com.au Fri May 30 23:24:01 2003 From: drido at optushome.com.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? In-Reply-To: <20030530201113.92496.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20030531052644.010e0a5c@mail.optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20030531142421.010ee238@mail.optushome.com.au> At 02:04 PM 5/31/03, you wrote: >Is the the green screen 'Wang Classic' computer ? If >so, I don't believe that a Windows port was ever >available for it. > >There were later Wang machines that supported Windows; >these were PC clones. I had one of these around >1986/1987 that ran Windows 1.03 IIRC. There was also a >port of the Wang Word Processing software that ran on >the later PC compatible models. But for the Wang >Classic I think you'd be limited to their flavour of >MS-DOS due to the BIOS differences. > >Regards, > >Dave I have the mono card with green monitor on my wang, but there is a color card/monitor for them. Was the Wang PC clone that you had also called a Wang Professional? If so then I probably do just have PC versions of DOS 3.2 and Win 1.03. I thought I might have got lucky, as both the box and the disks are marked "Wang Professional Computer Series". From kd7bcy at teleport.com Sat May 31 01:07:00 2003 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Get another one and you can hook-up your own local T-1 ;) ?? OK, I don't know much about higher speed setups. I know ISDN is kinda outdated and slow now, but what is currently available at what speeds/costs and how are they setup? Rather OT I suppose. But more towards the quote above, what really would be needed to setup a T1? And how fast IS a T1(something I probably used to know but forgot a while ago since I don't run across them often)? The older TSU/CSU/DSU/Whatever-SU's(not only is my memory bad, but I can't seem to think straight right now!) seem to show up a lot at surplus stores or in junk piles. Any reasons to grab or avoid them? -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 31 03:30:01 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Sat, May 31, 2003 at 00:06:32 CEST References: <20030528084634.GI1775@oblina> Message-ID: <20030531094752.X248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2003.05.31 00:06 Tony Duell wrote: > The value of that capacitor is not _too_ critical. 22000uF would be > near enough, for exampkle. Sure. The bigest problem would be to find one that fits physically into the brick. I haven't checked this yet. > You are lucky to have other local collectors. Yes. There is the sun3zoo... an other collector who is that bussy shuffling around machines that he never gets time to get them running and there is David who takes _everything_ that looks like a computer. (Got the 11/34A from him.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat May 31 06:08:01 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22b235fb4b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Didn't you have a relatively high -ve voltage on a data line? If so, you > might well have killed a buffer chip... They've all been replaced with new chips, though... Guess I've got the dubious pleasure of looking for dead buffers and shorts... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From jpdavis at gorge.net Sat May 31 06:22:00 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED88F76.2030507@gorge.net> John Rollins wrote: >> Get another one and you can hook-up your own local T-1 ;) > > > ?? > > OK, I don't know much about higher speed setups. I know ISDN is kinda > outdated and slow now, but what is currently available at what > speeds/costs and how are they setup? Rather OT I suppose. > But more towards the quote above, what really would be needed to setup > a T1? And how fast IS a T1(something I probably used to know but > forgot a while ago since I don't run across them often)? The older > TSU/CSU/DSU/Whatever-SU's(not only is my memory bad, but I can't seem > to think straight right now!) seem to show up a lot at surplus stores > or in junk piles. Any reasons to grab or avoid them? > Hi A T1 is a old telecom digital datastream consisting of 24 ds0 s A ds0 is a 8 Kbyte serial data stream, ( one simplex audio stream ) so, a T1 is 24 * 8Kbytes/sec = 196.5Kbytes/sec, about 1.5kbits/sec ADSL or cable are much cheaper and faster, T1 is externally clocked and will not be blocked, if you are sending continuous data, and the application requires a unbroken datastream, T1 is the economy way to go. For any packet traffic it's a waste since your paying for every bit. Jim Davis. From jpdavis at gorge.net Sat May 31 06:34:00 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items In-Reply-To: <3ED88F76.2030507@gorge.net> References: <3ED88F76.2030507@gorge.net> Message-ID: <3ED89253.90008@gorge.net> Jim Davis wrote: > John Rollins wrote: > >>> Get another one and you can hook-up your own local T-1 ;) >> >> >> >> ?? >> >> OK, I don't know much about higher speed setups. I know ISDN is kinda >> outdated and slow now, but what is currently available at what >> speeds/costs and how are they setup? Rather OT I suppose. >> But more towards the quote above, what really would be needed to >> setup a T1? And how fast IS a T1(something I probably used to know >> but forgot a while ago since I don't run across them often)? The >> older TSU/CSU/DSU/Whatever-SU's(not only is my memory bad, but I >> can't seem to think straight right now!) seem to show up a lot at >> surplus stores or in junk piles. Any reasons to grab or avoid them? >> > Hi > A T1 is a old telecom digital datastream consisting of 24 ds0 s > A ds0 is a 8 Kbyte serial data stream, ( one simplex audio stream ) > so, a T1 is 24 * 8Kbytes/sec = 196.5Kbytes/sec, about 1.5kbits/sec > ADSL or cable are much cheaper and faster, T1 is externally clocked > and will not be blocked, if you are sending continuous data, and the > application requires a unbroken datastream, T1 is the economy way > to go. For any packet traffic it's a waste since your paying for every > bit. > Jim Davis. > oops, i ment about 1.5 Megabits/sec From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat May 31 07:12:00 2003 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20030531142421.010ee238@mail.optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <20030531121101.75980.qmail@web13503.mail.yahoo.com> > Was the Wang PC clone that you had also called a > Wang Professional? If so > then I probably do just have PC versions of DOS 3.2 > and Win 1.03. I *think* that the Wang Professional designation appeared on all the desktop machines, both PC and non-PC variants, and it also appeared on most of the 5.25" media that I had for both machines. I also think that the unit I had was a '280'. There was also a '350' which had a smaller footprint and probably a 386 processor. > I thought I might have got lucky, as both the box > and the disks are marked > "Wang Professional Computer Series". I wish I could help you with software but stupidly I ditched all my 5.25" media when I left the UK about 10 years ago. At one time I had Lotus 1-2-3, and dbase, along with the Wang IWP package, and I had various games including Pacman that had been ported over. But you may still get lucky. We used Wang equipment in conjunction with VS80s (and later VS models) for e-mail internally as well as disk and print serving. Did you also get the VS networking card ? Dave From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 31 09:51:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Network HW items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2003, John Rollins wrote: > OK, I don't know much about higher speed setups. I know ISDN is kinda > outdated and slow now, but what is currently available at what > speeds/costs and how are they setup? Rather OT I suppose. > But more towards the quote above, what really would be needed to > setup a T1? And how fast IS a T1(something I probably used to know > but forgot a while ago since I don't run across them often)? The > older TSU/CSU/DSU/Whatever-SU's(not only is my memory bad, but I > can't seem to think straight right now!) seem to show up a lot at > surplus stores or in junk piles. Any reasons to grab or avoid them? The only use for such devices would be to create a point-to-point T1 connection between two structures where the distance between them is too for for a standard 10/100baeT cable run. In that case, you would also need routers on each end that have a T1 interface. It would be fun to play with if you can gather up all the necessary equipment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 31 11:34:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Categorization and description was RE: Collection policy was Re: No space for vinatge computers in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2003, Cynde Moya wrote: > I'm finding many aspects of this discussion very compelling. It got me > to wonder some things. > > How would you categorize and describe classic computer items? Is there > an accepted descriptive benchmark in the collectors discipline? Not yet, but I've been working on one for the forthcoming Vintage Computer Festival Marketplace. I've adopted a heirarchical structure as one would expect. It is a taxonomy of sorts, with the top level genera being: Hardware Software Literature Component Media Ephemera Video Games Calculator Toys Other I'm still thinking about it but I think this is a good start. I separate out calculators from hardware because in my mind it seems appropriate. A Burroughs hand-cranked calculator from the late 19th century just doesn't seem like it should go in the same genus as a 1975 MITS Altair, or an ENIAC plugboard, even though a calculator is, after all, "hardware". > Or better still, how would you *like* to see it done? What would be an > appropriate descriptive level of a flip chip, a unibus terminator, a > cable, a power cable, a backplane, a cabinet part? If you had a museum > or archival collection of these DEC things, what would you want to know > about them that would make them useful to you? To take each example you gave, in my system, they would be categorized as follows: FlipChip -> Hardware:Board:Adapter Card/Logic Module:FlipChip Unibus terminator -> Hardware:Adapter Card/Logic Module:Unibus Cable -> Hardware:Cable/Connector:Cable:Data Power Cable -> Hardware:Cable/Connector:Cable:Power Backplane -> Hardware:Board:Bus Cabinet part -> Hardware:Enclosure Some of these examples got me thinking, which gave me a chance to edit, expand, and re-think some of my current heirarchy, which is good. This is an exercise that needs to be iterated many times with many different artifacts so that a sensible and logical heirarchy can be developed. As an example of something that will require some thought: what would a lone front panel be considered? It's a circuit-board, but it's also an input/output device, but it's also part of the enclosure. For now, I'm saying it's a Hardware:Board:Front Panel. Of course, there will always be the platypus, which will throw the heirarchy for a loop, but that's what the "Other" category is for ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 31 11:39:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Categorization and description was RE: Collection policy was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > How would you categorize and describe classic computer items? Is there > > an accepted descriptive benchmark in the collectors discipline? > > I think I'd it at the 'option' level. For example : > > PDP-9 processor with xxx DECtape controller and TU56 DECtape, xxxx serial > interface, ... > > I'd give the version of any options where it really makes a big > difference (such as the fact that the PDP11/45 processor had many changes > and S/N 2000) I would be more inclined to separately identify each major component of the overall system. So with the above, I'd have: PDP-9 processor -> Hardware:Computer/Processor:Mainframe DECtape controller -> Hardware:Board:Adapter Card/Logic Module:Other* TU56 DECtape -> Hardware:Peripheral:I/O:Drive:Tape Drive:Reel-to-Reel * I don't have a special category for PDP-9 modules Now, if all of these came in as one artifact, they would all be grouped together under a "parent" entry in the database, linking to each sub-record. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 31 13:08:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: That pesky Jupiter Ace *still* won't work...t In-Reply-To: <22b235fb4b.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 31, 3 12:04:34 pm Message-ID: > > Didn't you have a relatively high -ve voltage on a data line? If so, you > > might well have killed a buffer chip... > They've all been replaced with new chips, though... Guess I've got the > dubious pleasure of looking for dead buffers and shorts... So what haven't you replaced yet? That could be a good starting point for what still might be blown... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 31 13:11:00 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: TRS80 mod 4 ver1 video/memory problems In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at May 30, 3 10:45:36 pm Message-ID: > > When you reseated socketed chips, did you also do the ones on the FDC > > board? Have you checked -- carefully -- the ribbon cable between the CPU > > and FDC boards? I've had a lot of problems with those cables in M3s and > > M4s. > > Speaking of which, whats best to replace these with? Both my model 3 and > model 4 suffer from bad cables. I believe I've seen that tapewire in at least one catalogue. It was an almost-standard part at one time. However, what I did on my M3 (my M4's cables were OK) was totally non-original. I desoldered the connectors from the CPU and FDC PCBs and replaced them with SIL 20 pin headers. I then used a 40 way IDC cable (like a PC IDE cable) to link them, just using one row of holes in each connector (and making sure I picked the right row to have connections :-)). Seems to work fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 31 13:11:43 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A / BA11-K PSU In-Reply-To: <20030531094752.X248535@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 31, 3 09:47:52 am Message-ID: > On 2003.05.31 00:06 Tony Duell wrote: > > > The value of that capacitor is not _too_ critical. 22000uF would be > > near enough, for exampkle. > Sure. The bigest problem would be to find one that fits physically into > the brick. I haven't checked this yet. The good news is that capacitors have got smaller over the years, so a modern one is likely to be able to fit in the case. You might have to make up some brackets, etc to hold it there... > > > You are lucky to have other local collectors. > Yes. There is the sun3zoo... an other collector who is that bussy > shuffling around machines that he never gets time to get them running > and there is David who takes _everything_ that looks like a computer. > (Got the 11/34A from him.)=20 You are lucky. I don;t know of any others in the SW London area, or even in all of London. Pity, it would be nice to meet some from time to time... -tony From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Sat May 31 13:26:00 2003 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: HP 80 Series Software Message-ID: Hi all, I'm not that familiar with 80 series machines. Can they be interfaced to HPIB HDD's? Can their tapes be read on HPIB based tape drives? If so then it may be possible to read/back them up using the HPIB / LIF reader software I've been working on. With the work that I've had to do on command formats I think that I may be able to code a PC+HPIB card system that emulates CS80 or AMIGO based disk or tape drives. This would mean that the old HP system could boot from a PC emulating an HPIB drive, removing ageing disk / tape drives from the loop. Are these CS80 / AMIGO command set disks compatible with 80 series machines? Joe: I have been trying to get hold of you - How have you got on with the early version of the HPIB drive reader software that I sent you? - does it catalog your drives OK? I still need to get the postage cost on the 3 HP-UX manuals I won from you on ebay so that I can close out that transaction. Let me know and I will send you a cheque. Cheers Peter Brown _________________________________________________________________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess From drido at optushome.com.au Sat May 31 14:18:00 2003 From: drido at optushome.com.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? In-Reply-To: <20030531121101.75980.qmail@web13503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20030531142421.010ee238@mail.optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20030601051756.011d2f1c@mail.optushome.com.au> >I wish I could help you with software but stupidly I >ditched all my 5.25" media when I left the UK about 10 >years ago. At one time I had Lotus 1-2-3, and dbase, >along with the Wang IWP package, and I had various >games including Pacman that had been ported over. But >you may still get lucky. I've got a versions 2.6 and 3.0 of the IWP among the original floppies I have, I think there's an older version on the HDD. Also got the original floppy for MS Chart, though it won't run as I don't have the right video card. I asks for a "medium resolution card and monitor", I've never heard of any PC video card described like that so I'm pretty sure it's the wang version. It also has Lotus 123 1.x, BASIC and the menu shell on the HDD. I think all the external commands and utilities usually supplied with DOS are intact. If I can find the floppies I made 10 years or so ago when I last had one of these I should also have Solution 6 (some accounting package), Viatel (videotext) terminal software, and maybe another version of DOS. If anyone else needs anyone of this I can email copies. I've never seen any Wang native games, though I do remember getting Infocom text adventures and NetHack running. Did the games you have actually have graphics or did they just use ASCII characters ala NetHack? >We used Wang equipment in conjunction with VS80s (and >later VS models) for e-mail internally as well as disk >and print serving. Did you also get the VS networking >card ? I have those cards in the past (a two card set with BNC/TNC connectors from memory) Wangs, but this one didn't come with them. Judging by the stuff on the HDD I think this one spent its life as a dedicated word processor. I think I do have the ISA version of that card around here somewhere. I last had these systems over 10 years ago. I bought a higher end version of this system for $5 at a market. The 286 version with 8 slots, a 1.2MB FDD and a 70MB MFM HDD. I played around with it for a while, but ended up putting the drives in the 386-16 PC I had scrounged up. I was a kid with no money back then, so 70MB was a big deal to me at the time. I shudder to think of the machines I stripped back then for their drives. That 386 got it's next upgrade when I installed a pair 120MB MFM drives, one pulled from a Data General MV or some sort, the other from an ICL 68K unix box. My Inboard/386 equipped XT got it's 40MB drive from a Xerox 6085... From classic at elektro.cmhnet.org Sat May 31 17:26:01 2003 From: classic at elektro.cmhnet.org (Charlie Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board Message-ID: <200305312225.h4VMPl515069@elektro.cmhnet.org> Does anyone remember if the Central Point Deluxe Option Board can copy 1.4 MB 3.5" floppy disks? I had one of these boards and gave it to a friend last year. If it will handle 1.4 MB diskettes, I can probably get it back and install it on some sort of old 386 motherboard system. You wouldn't believe the old junk burried in my back bedroom! Or, given this list ... maybe you would believe it. When I say old junk, it includes stuff like some IBM 2321 Data Cell strips and other things of that vintage. :-) - Charlie Charlie Smith charlie@elektro.cmhnet.org 614-271-1418 http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/ Columbus Ohio USA SMS: charlie.sms@elektro.com From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 31 17:34:01 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: IMC Portcom II Message-ID: <200305312229.h4VMTJUC007519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Submitted for your amusement, something picked up today while out scrounging (really looking for non-classic bits). It's a luggable. Poking out the front: 5" CRT two half-height 5.25" floppy drives (inserted floppies have extra write protect notches cut for use as flippies) 40/80 switch modular jack (6-conductor) brightness and horizontal hold knobs Poking out the back: GAME (DE9P) RS-232C (DB25S) PRINTER ("Centronics" connector) VIDEO (RCA socket) label, handwritten s/n 1193 and checkmarks for 110V 60Hz The detached keyboard has a modular jack too. It's also bit-paired (shift-2 is '"'), in fact it mostly follows the Apple ][ layout (and has <- and -> keys), and it has what look like BASIC keywords on the fronts of many of the keys, including HTAB, VTAB, GR, HGR, and TEXT. No cable between keyboard and luggable. I'm thinking it's an Apple ][ clone of some sort. It doesn't quite power up: no video display on the internal monitor. Pulling the top cover shows the guts. The top floppy drive is a Teac FD55A. The motherboard has five slots that look like Apple ][ slots; the silkscreen on the motherboard labels them S0 S3 S4 S5 S7. Date codes on the visible ICs are 81xx and 84xx so I'm guessing 1984 at the earliest. Someone's been in here before. The 40/80 switch has a lead to a paper clip that ties it (mechanically at least) to an insulated red lead that goes from the motherboard to the display board; this red lead would appear to be the +ve supply for the display. There's also a loose metal cover over the display section; it looks like it may have been held together or insulated by tape or sticky cardboard at some time but this has been removed somewhat. Powering up with the top off makes a red LED on the motherboard light up solid, but the CRT filament doesn't glow. Anyone ever seen one of these before? -Frank McConnell From hansp at citem.org Sat May 31 18:17:00 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: simh help? In-Reply-To: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200305291543.IAA12979@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3ED62FF1.4080705@citem.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > We make a 64 bit/32 bit x86 machine. Have you had chance to try SIMH PDP-10 emulation compiled 64-bit yet? If so what performance do you get? My next system purchse will be an AMD 64 bit system. Just waiting for the price to drop somewhere into my affordability range. -- hbp From hansp at citem.org Sat May 31 18:17:47 2003 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: RCA WO-33A Manual available Message-ID: <3ED64562.2090303@citem.org> One of my second hand book trawls just threw up this: RCA Cathode-Ray Oscilloscope Manual by Radio Corporation of America, Illustrated Harrison, N.J.: RCA Pictorial Cover. 4to - over 93/4" - 12" tall. Cathode-Ray Oscilloscope Type WO-33A Manual with Specifications - Operation - Application and Maintenance information; Illustrated; 23 pages; light cover and edgewear, good condition. Its in the States, priced at $10, if you are intereseted send me a message OFF-LIST. -- hbp From sgust at ithh.infoserv.de Sat May 31 18:18:15 2003 From: sgust at ithh.infoserv.de (Soeren Gust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Vaxstation 2000 and VXT software, 4 plane color supported? Message-ID: <20030530190258.A16919@ithh.infoserv.de> Some time ago I got my hands on a Vaxstation 2000. I searched for some Information about the machine and read somewhere that it should be possible to run the VXT X terminal software on the VS 2000. The only version of the VXT software I found was in VMS BACKUP format which I could not read. So I put NetBSD on the machine, it runs disk-less from a PC with Linux. Last week I searched again and found version 2.1 of the VXT software in tar format, so I could finally try it. It works, but only in monochrome. If I put my VS40X 4 plane color option board into the machine it seems to crash when it has finished loading. Some pixels get randomly set and the machine does not react on the break switch at the back. Is the color board supported by the VXT software? Or is it a firmware issue? My board has version 1.4, are there newer versions available? Or even older version? Anybody want to swap firmware dumps? The loading process via mop often takes several retries or even fails completely, especially when loading the full VXT.SYS version. It seems to work better if there is some load on the Linux server, perhaps the mop daemon sends the data too fast. Has anybody else seen this effect? Is it possible to use the VXTLDR.SYS to load the rest of the software via TCP/IP? I know nearly nothing about DECNET and don't have any other DEC equipment to run it on. Another minor problem is that I don't have a real DEC mouse. I use a small Atmel AT90S2313 micro-controller as protocol converter. It currently only supports one mouse button and needs an Amiga mouse, but I plan to adapt it to PS/2 mice. The information about the DEC mouse protocol I found leaves some minor questions. How many packets per second does a real DEC mouse send in stream mode? I chose to send 60 per second, as this was easy to implement via the timer0 interrupt on the Atmel. What does a real DEC mouse return as revision and manufacturer code? I return 0 for both but fear that there may be some software which expects real data. Soeren Gust From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sat May 31 18:43:13 2003 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer Info In-Reply-To: <20030529083314.M55395-100000@hades.crwolff.com> Message-ID: <20030529153942.24333.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Clint et al, Also see http://www.computerhistory.org/events/core/3.2/ for an article on the Apollo Guidance Computer which you can see on display at the *new* home of the Computer History Museum. BTW the Alpha Phase opening of the Museum is occurring this week. Lee Courtney --- Clint Wolff wrote: > I apologize if this has been posted before, but I > found a website which > has many papers on the Apollo guidance computer, > including some of the > design documentation. > > http://hrst.mit.edu/groups/apollo/bibliography/q-and-a.tcl?topic_id=11&topic=Document%20Library > > Clint From stuart at stuartsjohnsonfamily.net Sat May 31 18:44:22 2003 From: stuart at stuartsjohnsonfamily.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: FA-PDT-11/150 on eBay Message-ID: <021801c32619$8ae27280$0200a8c0@cosmo> I noticed this on eBay and thought I'd post it here for those PDP-11 collectors among us: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2733136922&category=1247 The starting price ($199 US) seems high, but these are pretty hard to find. One possibly sour note though - the seller wants a flat rate of $150 to ship anywhere in North America. I picked up one of these in terrific condition last December for $25. It cost $65 to pack and ship the heavy thing, but it was worth it. I haven't seen another PDT sell since then. Stuart Johnson From nickmiller at charter.net Sat May 31 18:44:50 2003 From: nickmiller at charter.net (Nick Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: XENIX Distribution Disks References: Message-ID: <00bd01c3262f$a7378d60$7a00a8c0@themillers> I have a Model 16B with the internal 15 MB harddisk and 8" slimline floppy. I also have a Model II that has been upgraded to a Model 16 with a 68000 board. Both are cool machines. I do have a pile reference manuals and development software for the machines, just no time to copy them. Nick Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Robertson" To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:55 PM Subject: Re: XENIX Distribution Disks > on 5/27/03 8:39 PM, Kelly Leavitt at CCTalk@catcorner.org wrote: > > > Anyone else collect the 6000's? > > Or does anyone have a Model 16? I was thinking about it the other day, and > I've never actually heard of anyone having one. > > -- > Owen Robertson From vance at neurotica.com Sat May 31 18:45:20 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: <008201c325fc$1f110020$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Nope. Not really. It's the same architecture as NeXTstep. BSD on top of Mach. FreeBSD and NetBSD supply some of the userland. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not > NEXTSTEP. > > Jay West > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TeoZ" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:18 AM > Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > > > > I know mac osx came from nextstep. I was just pointing out apple tried the > > macos on top of unix thing before. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian Chase" > > To: "Classic Computers" > > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:01 AM > > Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale... > > > > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote: > > > > > > > [...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time > > > > period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software > > > > development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive > > > > business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I > > > > don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years > > > > which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older > > > > (macos on top of Unix). > > > > > > Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is > > > about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware > > > business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used > > > their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly > > > taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing > > > world for it.) > > > > > > One trivial example... > > > > > > nextstep% file /bin/ls > > > /bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k) > > > > > > os-x% file /bin/ls > > > /bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc > > > > > > They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic > > > number they chose for Mach-O binaries: > > > > > > nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 > > > 0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002 > > > > > > os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1 > > > 0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000 > 0002 > > > > > > Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they > > > revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP. > > > Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools, > > > netinfo, and Mach, and... > > > > > > The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a > > > throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had > > > to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their > > > customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly > > > bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X. > > > > > > NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their > > > systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both > > > accessible and acceptable to the masses. > > > > > > -brian. From vance at neurotica.com Sat May 31 18:45:50 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:00 2005 Subject: OSX In-Reply-To: <00bb01c32603$9aa3f6a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Yes, but OSX contains things like lukemftpd. It definitely has other NetBSD bits in there, but nothing I remember off the top of my head. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jay West wrote: > David wrote... > > Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of Next(Open)Step, Mach > > kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too. > > Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references > > to NetBSD in some of them. > > That means nothing. There's lots of references to other BSD's and other unix > flavors in the man pages for most unices... From stationmaster at ozemail.com.au Sat May 31 18:46:20 2003 From: stationmaster at ozemail.com.au (Robin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Wang Laptop Message-ID: <000701c32706$80bf17c0$32a154d2@bnrj41s> Hi Geoff, yes I bought the Laptop in Pirie a few years ago,do you have any details on how to use it ,i.e. a Manual,the computer is still running and I now have an extra 5" external disk drive witch is a big help,were you the original owner,if so what did you use the computer for,cheers from Crystal Brook.SA. Robin at Crystal Brook. My Email: stationmaster@ozemail.com.au Photos: http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b330ceeea457 Dirtcircuit : http://www.trainweb.org/mystation/hotrod.htm History of Steam: http://au.geocities.com/comptroller_pboro/ C.Brook: http://au.geocities.com/comptroller_pboro/CrystalBrook.htm My Main Site: http://www.trainweb.org/mystation SteamTown: http://www.trainweb.org/mystation/steamtown.htm ( 4 Sale) From stationmaster at ozemail.com.au Sat May 31 18:46:49 2003 From: stationmaster at ozemail.com.au (Robin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Wang WLTC Laptop Message-ID: <001001c3270c$12a80d40$32a154d2@bnrj41s> Hi, I am a collector of Historic Computers and the Wang is in my collection and still working daily as a Note Book,however I need further information or possibly a Manual on the computers operation,any help greatly appreciated,my Online museum is up and running at: http://cloud.prohosting.com/stoiksrs/ Robin at Crystal Brook. My Email: stationmaster@ozemail.com.au Photos: http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b330ceeea457 Dirtcircuit : http://www.trainweb.org/mystation/hotrod.htm History of Steam: http://au.geocities.com/comptroller_pboro/ C.Brook: http://au.geocities.com/comptroller_pboro/CrystalBrook.htm My Main Site: http://www.trainweb.org/mystation SteamTown: http://www.trainweb.org/mystation/steamtown.htm ( 4 Sale) From root at parse.com Sat May 31 18:47:19 2003 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Valuing an 11/60 Message-ID: <200305310232.WAA10877@parse.com> I have the opportunity to pick up up to 5 PDP-11/60's, but it's the usual "make me a reasonable offer" stuff. I've already tried the "how about $500 for a cube-van's worth" and been shot down. Anyone know what a "reasonable offer" for this stuff is? Anyone interested in an 11/60 FOB Ottawa/ON/Canada? Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From toby at russellsharpe.co.uk Sat May 31 18:47:49 2003 From: toby at russellsharpe.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Interdata Model 74 In-Reply-To: <200305291959.h4TJxq18006528@spies.com> References: <200305291959.h4TJxq18006528@spies.com> Message-ID: <1054372107.7432.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, Thanks Al, that would be really useful. I currently have practically no information on the machine so restoring it to a working state is fairly daunting! Toby On Thu, 2003-05-29 at 20:59, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have any information, documentation, engineering diagrams for > this machine? > > -- > > I have the model 74 maint manual. I'll see about getting it uploaded to > www.spies.com/aek/pdf/interdata. From kens at cad2cam.com Sat May 31 18:49:09 2003 From: kens at cad2cam.com (Kenneth G. Stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: HP7585B DOA. (Second posting) Message-ID: <1054406917.30709.30.camel@atlas.cadtocam.com> I thought I would try again. Fishing for an image of the EPROM for this pen plotter. HP part # 07585-18078, Rev A, 10-29-84 and the companion EPROM part # 07585-18076. Has anyone had any luck with HP support? Ken Stephens CAD2CAM.COM From allain at panix.com Sat May 31 19:02:01 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Mac Net dummy Q's References: Message-ID: <000e01c327d0$d029ff80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I don't know if Chris is available on weekends, so I'm asking it here: How do you share resourses on AppleTalk? I'm getting positive results, but still no remote drives are visible. The following was done on both connected systems: The serial/minidin ports were daisy-chained with a cord (?SuperUSER?) supplied by Chris. Desktop +- Apple +- Control Panel +- Sharing Setup ('Start' was selected, reboot) Desktop +- File menu +- Sharing... +- Share this Disk (Done to the active drive) Now, where is the remote drive supposed to show up on the local system? Desktop +- Apple +- Control Panel +- File Sharing Monitor (nothing was shown) Desktop +- Apple +- Chooser +- Appletalk +- Servers (none were shown) Can I cross-connect two systems' drives or do things have to go master-slave? John A. From cb at mythtech.net Sat May 31 19:20:00 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Mac Net dummy Q's Message-ID: > Desktop > +- Apple > +- Control Panel > +- Sharing Setup > ('Start' was selected, reboot) No need to reboot after starting File Sharing, and in fact, rebooting can cause the file sharing to be turned back off. So first step, go back into the Sharing Setup control panel, and make sure the Start button says "Stop" (if it says "Start" then click it again, and wait for file sharing to startup, the button will change to Stop when it is up and running) >Now, where is the remote drive >supposed to show up on the local system? In the remote computer's Chooser, under AppleShare. If you don't see the server there, make sure both computers' AppleTalk control panel is set to use the Printer Port, and that AppleTalk is turned on (and make sure the serial TeleNet connectors are plugged into the Printer port and not the Modem port). Also, on the TeleNet connectors, make sure there is a terminator in the unused phone jack on each. I don't remember if the ones I gave you have termination switches on the side, if they do, just make sure it is set to ON (if it is, then you don't need a terminator in the 2nd jack... I know either they have they switches or I gave you terminators... I don't think I would have been brain dead enough to give you them without a way to terminate them) -chris From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat May 31 19:29:00 2003 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Computer in Dark Star Message-ID: <3ED9494F.5010504@gifford.co.uk> Just been watching John Carpenter's film "Dark Star" (again). There's a very brief shot of a computer toggle-switch front panel. It seems to have two rows of 15 lights (neons?) and two rows of toggle switches (with plastic tips). It looks like a genuine machine, not a made-up prop, but what machine is it? Does anybody know? -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From at258 at osfn.org Sat May 31 21:13:00 2003 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: DOS/Windows for Wang Professional Computer (not a PC clone)? In-Reply-To: <20030531121101.75980.qmail@web13503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In addition to the to the old Wang PC in the archiver case, I think there were PC-250's, PC-280's and PC-350's. There was also the Wang Executive which was a 386, I think, and the Alliance series, which may have been 486's. There were also the PCS-II's which were absolutely and completely non MS-DOS copmpatible. They ran Wang Basic. On Sat, 31 May 2003, David Comley wrote: > > Was the Wang PC clone that you had also called a > > Wang Professional? If so > > then I probably do just have PC versions of DOS 3.2 > > and Win 1.03. > > I *think* that the Wang Professional designation > appeared on all the desktop machines, both PC and > non-PC variants, and it also appeared on most of the > 5.25" media that I had for both machines. I also think > that the unit I had was a '280'. There was also a > '350' which had a smaller footprint and probably a 386 > processor. > > > > I thought I might have got lucky, as both the box > > and the disks are marked > > "Wang Professional Computer Series". > > I wish I could help you with software but stupidly I > ditched all my 5.25" media when I left the UK about 10 > years ago. At one time I had Lotus 1-2-3, and dbase, > along with the Wang IWP package, and I had various > games including Pacman that had been ported over. But > you may still get lucky. > > We used Wang equipment in conjunction with VS80s (and > later VS models) for e-mail internally as well as disk > and print serving. Did you also get the VS networking > card ? > > Dave > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 23:07:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board In-Reply-To: <200305312225.h4VMPl515069@elektro.cmhnet.org> Message-ID: <20030601040650.84900.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Charlie Smith wrote: > You wouldn't believe the old junk burried in my back bedroom! > Or, given this list ... maybe you would believe it. When I say > old junk, it includes stuff like some IBM 2321 Data Cell strips > and other things of that vintage. I can attest to this! Charlie gave me a "noodle" a while back. I had it on display last weekend at the computer history exhibit at MarCON, one of the local science fiction conventions (along with a VIP, an Elf, a SYM-1, an SX-64, an Aquarius, an SBC-6120 w/ELT-320, a VAXBI COMBOARD, an Intel-produced 8086 trainer, and a PDP-8/L w/PC04 and ASR-33). -ethan From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 23:16:00 2003 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: FA-PDT-11/150 on eBay In-Reply-To: <021801c32619$8ae27280$0200a8c0@cosmo> Message-ID: <20030601041530.17423.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stuart Johnson wrote: > I noticed this on eBay...The starting price ($199 US) seems high, but > these are pretty hard to find. I used to have one, but I sold it about 10 years ago (for around $40, IIRC). I didn't think I'd ever use it (didn't know about formatting blank 8" floppies in it, or I'd never have sold it). > One possibly sour note though - the seller wants a flat rate of $150 to > ship anywhere in North America. Yow! I can just about get a round-trip ticket to Burbank for that (not quite, but close). > I picked up one of these in terrific condition last December for $25. Nice. Even with the shipping. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 31 23:46:01 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:38:01 2005 Subject: FA-PDT-11/150 on eBay In-Reply-To: <021801c32619$8ae27280$0200a8c0@cosmo> References: <021801c32619$8ae27280$0200a8c0@cosmo> Message-ID: >I noticed this on eBay and thought I'd post it here for those PDP-11 >collectors among us: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2733136922&category=1247 > >The starting price ($199 US) seems high, but these are pretty hard to find. >One possibly sour note though - the seller wants a flat rate of $150 to ship >anywhere in North America. Interesting. It's in identical shape to the one that I've got. I've been wondering how much one would sell for if it was fixed up a little. However, I think the outrageous shipping charge and unknown condition will prevent him from getting what he could for it. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |