From curt at atari-history.com Thu Aug 30 15:57:12 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <00b301c13196$5933ffc0$aab1ff0a@cvendel> Gene, Go from the headphones output on your stereo, cassette decks usually have their own and into the mic input on your PC sound card input. I've done this before with Atari 8bit software on cassettes and made .wav files which can then be burned to a CD-rom and hooked up to the audio lines on the SIO bus of the 8bits and using the same cload or run "C:" command you can load the software off of a cdrom. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 18:04:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:20 2005 Subject: "Early" 3.5" diskettes (was: Wired covers VCF east In-Reply-To: <200107312243.SAA11608@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jul 31, 1 06:43:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010801/2546be4e/attachment.ksh From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 1 00:09:34 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:25 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010731120603.00a60080@mailhost.intellistar.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20010731133816.02791ab0@pc> Message-ID: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil that? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Foust wrote: > There's a real drive-in movie > theater on the edge of town. We're 35 minutes from a Starbucks > or real boiled bagels, though. > > - John From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Wed Aug 1 00:40:57 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:31 2005 Subject: VCF East on Slashdot.org Message-ID: For those of you who don't normally check it out, there's an article on Slashdot.org about VCF East, linking to the Wired article. Check it out at: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/31/1547202&mode=nested It looks like there is a good amount of interest on there, or people who would have gone had they heard about it. It might be worthwhile to publicize the upcoming VCF on there, and maybe remember it for next year. -Rob -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GAT/E d- s:- a--- C++(++++) ULS+ P+ L+ E- W++ N+(++) o K w+++ O- M- V- PS+(+++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP t- 5- X+ R- tv b++ DI++ D++ G++ e h+ r- y ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Aug 1 00:40:39 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:35 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> Message-ID: Chad Fernandez wrote: > Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready > thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil > that? They're boiled as part of the fabrication process -- boiled to form the shiny "crust", then baked... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 1 01:09:14 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:35 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? Message-ID: <20010801010914.H19901@mrbill.net> Anybody ever seen one of these before: http://images.sunhelp.org/rack/rack-hardware/ ITS SO CUTE. I love it.. had an RX01 and some other stuff in it (which is now all out in the garage on the workbench waiting to be cleaned up). Took me about an hour to clean up the cabinet/enclosure itself, tighten up the rails, etc.. but it ended up being a perfectly temporary home for my "home network" gear until I re-fill it with PDP stuff. I'd just never seen such a "contemporary office enviroment"-styled enclosure. The top even matches my desk. 8-) (label on it says d|i|g|i|t|a|l pdp11 system) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 1 01:29:52 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:35 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) References: Message-ID: <3B67A1E0.93429895@internet1.net> Oh, I see. Gee, the things I learn on this list :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready > > thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil > > that? > > They're boiled as part of the fabrication process -- boiled to form the > shiny "crust", then baked... > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 1 01:47:13 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:36 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010801014506.P19710-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > My own personal 11/70 is still being elusive, but it's out there > somewhere. I'll find it someday! On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > My father has an 11/70 (he actually was an active user back in the > day) that has all original parts, even fuses. Is it *available*, or are you just torturing me? :-) P.S. If it is available, e-mail me directly instead of replying to the list . -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 1 02:13:37 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:36 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010731120603.00a60080@mailhost.intellistar.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20010731133816.02791ab0@pc> Message-ID: >Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready >thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil >that? What makes a bagel a bagel instead of bread is that after the dough rises the first time its formed into donut shapes and dropped into boiling water to kill the yeast so it doesn't rise anymore. The reference to a boiled bagel I think suggests making a bagel in some less orthodox fashion (how I don't know). After the boiling a bagel is still baked AFAIK. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 1 02:54:00 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: Universal filename translation system In-Reply-To: <434.612T350T8954191optimus@canit.se> References: <3B66826D.24561.14AC7F45@localhost> Message-ID: <3B67D1B8.13534.19CA3CAB@localhost> > Hans Franke skrev: > >> >BTW: the 9900 looks like a great Unicode machine - eventualy > >> >one should drop all this unnecersary byte operation :) > >> 9900 what? > >Texas Instruments TMS 9900 and it's brothers ans sisters. > >AK TI 990/xx > >The CPU used for example in the TI 99/4, or the Tomy Tutor. > >A nice clean 16 Bit design. > Ah, you're right about that. Shame that I've never seen it in a decent system. Well, I'd considere the TI 99/4 a real nice system. The designers can't be made responsible for the faults of the chip design guys, who couldn't deliver an 8 Bit verion in time. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 1 02:54:00 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: Speech chips again In-Reply-To: <10107312135.ZM6188@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: Speech chips again" (Jul 31, 2:25) Message-ID: <3B67D1B8.18201.19CA3C9B@localhost> > > I'm offline ATM and can't tell whether this would be relevant, but if > > you're > > into TI-99/4A, this is a good site indeed: > > http://www.stanford.edu/~thierry1/ti99/titechpages.htm > Thanks -- some of that is helpful, even though I did find the data sheets > on the web. Now all I need is some time to play with it... Well, the question is still if I should send you the data sheets ? Ciao Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 1 02:59:46 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? In-Reply-To: <20010801010914.H19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010801005900.023e8320@209.185.79.193> At 01:09 AM 8/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody ever seen one of these before: > >http://images.sunhelp.org/rack/rack-hardware/ > >ITS SO CUTE. Yes, it looks so sad without the PDP inside of it. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 03:08:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? In-Reply-To: small rack enclosures, seen this one? (Bill Bradford) References: <20010801010914.H19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <15207.47348.364860.76453@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 1, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody ever seen one of these before: > > http://images.sunhelp.org/rack/rack-hardware/ > > ITS SO CUTE. I love it.. had an RX01 and some > other stuff in it (which is now all out in the garage > on the workbench waiting to be cleaned up). Took me > about an hour to clean up the cabinet/enclosure itself, > tighten up the rails, etc.. but it ended up being a > perfectly temporary home for my "home network" gear > until I re-fill it with PDP stuff. > > I'd just never seen such a "contemporary office > enviroment"-styled enclosure. The top even matches my desk. 8-) > > (label on it says d|i|g|i|t|a|l pdp11 system) Wow...I've only seen one of those once...been looking for one for a while. Take good care of that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Wed Aug 1 03:31:53 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: CD-R utility Message-ID: For those of you who were discussing the merits of CD-R manufacturers and dyes a week or so ago, I ran across a Windows program tonight that might be of interest. Apparently it can tell you the real manufacturer and dye type used on the disc. Find it at: http://www.gum.de/it/download/english.htm -Rob -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GAT/E d- s:- a--- C++(++++) ULS+ P+ L+ E- W++ N+(++) o K w+++ O- M- V- PS+(+++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP t- 5- X+ R- tv b++ DI++ D++ G++ e h+ r- y ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 1 04:07:12 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: <0ba301c11a1a$55dcf360$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: <3B67E2E0.19390.1A0D41C5@localhost> > From: "Michael Nadeau" > I disagree for a few simple reasons: First, there aren't enough systems > worth the kind of money that would interest an investor/speculator. You need > to get into a five-figure value range and then have a history of value > growth over years. The only computer I can think of in that class is the > Apple I. Investors want to buy a few things for a lot of money that will > appreciate over time. Otherwise, it's too much work and overhead. If you think about big crook investors (*1) you're maybe right. But Investment on a 100USD up to a few thousand is still a thing to considere. Think about investment in Stamps or old coins. The situation is (collector/investor wise) quite similar. 90% of the items collected are of low value, and not very interesting investor only people. Of the remaining 10% again 9/10th are only of some worth - none of them as a single unit interesting as a big investment (but maybe as a collection). Only in the remaining 1% you'll find units where a single unit may represent significant value to Joe Average. Now we are talking about sums of the 4 to 5 digit range. And among all these zillions of various coins and stanps only a few, a number almost indistinguishable from Zero got the real big numbers on the price tag. Similar in Computers: For most units the scrap metal value (what a scrap dealer will pay) is higher than the collectors value (what a collector is willing to pay) - as in Coins, where for most coins the value is around the metal value. And the most units, where a price higher than this is possible it's in a low range - and as for Coins/stamps, they are of no value for investment (*2). Now there come in the few systems where a price may be obtained, reasonable higher than average: e.g. Chicklet PET, Altair, SOL, IMSAI, etc. And these are the systems where investment outside of the hobby scene may take place. As a last category we have again the exceptional pices like an Apple 1. In my eyes out of scope for reasonable consideration. (*1) It shouldbe noted that most forms of art investment are _not_ going for the few Rembrands or Van Gochs - these are just the ones who make the news (*2) If I talk here about Investment I always refer to pure money orientated and 'chart' driven investment - not Investment where you'd need some expertise to see a future gain. > Second, buying computers as an investment is not like collecting, say, art. > If not cared for, many of the most valuable systems deteriorate over time, > and with them their value. A speculator would have to invest in maintenance. > And then there are the storage and transportation issues involved with > larger systems. Now here you miss some of the most important factors in art collections. Just hanging the picture along the wall and waiting for a higher price is the best way to lower your value. Art work of most kind requires a constant maintanance and repair. Even more when you think about 'modern' art forms - 'stuff' made by artists like Beuys or other 'contemporary' artists require extensive skills. And their 'work' was sold for more than a few bucks. > Finally, no infrastructure exists to broker the buying and selling of > investor-level systems (even if they did exist in number). eBay is really > just a big yard sale. You don't have the equivalent of a Sotheby's auction > house or even of a high-end antique dealer. It took decades for this type of > infrastructure to develop for the antique auto hobby. Jep, I belive these things will show up during the next 10-15 years. > As the hobby grows (and it will whether we like it or not), it will attract > attention from mainstream media and people who think they can make a quick > buck. (and a buck is about all they will make). The bozos among them will be > a nuisance, but in the long run greater awareness of the hobby will result > in more systems being saved. Agreed. Ciao H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 04:37:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:41 2005 Subject: Wired covers VCF east In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The main VCF is at least four times larger than VCF East was, and there's >no reason that VCF East can't be the same size. I know there are more >collectors on the east coast than bothered to show up. I really wanted to be there but continuing health problems with my wife didn't allow that to happen. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Aug 1 06:18:07 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:42 2005 Subject: Wired covers VCF east (wayne green) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd like to thank Sellam for putting on the show..I had a lot of fun esp. meeting a lot of you guys. I just hope Sellam is not financially in the hole too much...otherwise he won't come back next year :-( The strangest part of the show for me was the Wayne Green talk...when he stayed on the subject he was great. I really didn't come to hear about the moon conspiracy, that cold fusion is real or that we could cure AIDS/Cancer if we all ate raw veggies/meat. He came off like a kook. I still have to respect him though, without Byte I might be a lawyer or doctor somewhere. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Wired covers VCF east On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Ernest wrote: > That sounds kind of sad but sort of cozy at the same time. How was the > crowd? Were they in a fun, happy mood or did they just wander around > and leave? I could see how a small crowd in a deserted hotel might be > fun if they're a friendly and chatty bunch of folks. Was there much of > a flea market? The turnout was actually very decent for the size of the room, but I wanted it packed, and it was only "very populated" on day one and "a bit sparse" on day 2. That was the really the only disappointing thing. The turnout was far less than I expected. A lot of people who I'd expected to see didn't show (including the Rhodes Island Computer Museum). Based on the survey responses and the initial clamor for it, more people should have come. Where were all the people wanting a VCF East last weekend? Otherwise, the exhibition turnout was fantastic. A lot of VERY COOL machines running VERY COOL programs were exhibited. I was even blown away. There could have been more vendors of course, but the vendors that were there sold a very nice assortment of good stuff (and a whole lot of vintage software). The consignment section had a terrific assortment of items. I walked away at the end of the weekend with some very cool finds (after I gave the attendees a chance to get all the good stuff first ;) The main VCF is at least four times larger than VCF East was, and there's no reason that VCF East can't be the same size. I know there are more collectors on the east coast than bothered to show up. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Wed Aug 1 06:37:59 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Digital font References: Message-ID: <3B67EA17.1A209B5C@tinyworld.co.uk> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > > I found the font that I used on my Web site for the "pdp11" logo. > It's "Century Gothic". And that is a good starting point for most of the other letters because Century Gothic is simply Monotype's copy of Avant Garde Gothic, the typeface I mentioned previously. There are clear differences between this and Futura, which someone else claimed to be the font. From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed Aug 1 06:51:06 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam References: Message-ID: <005a01c11a80$4ce078c0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> That proposed Maryland law is just one of a string of many dating back to Ladybird Johnson's "Beautify America" efforts. (Although this one sounds more stupid than most--for one thing, it will place unfair financial pressures on scrappers.) Most of them have failed or been rewritten to accommodate collectors because of the strength of the hobby. More collectors make a stronger hobby. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 12:37 AM Subject: Re: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > [...] > > > a nuisance, but in the long run greater awareness of the hobby will result > > > in more systems being saved. > > > > Mike, you hit the nail right on the head. You are right on with this > > issue. > > Sellam, while I understand this, and agree with you in theory - and > know that you've got the best interests computer preservation in mind, > I'm not convinced that the world works like that. Does anyone know > for certain that more systems will be saved because of a greater > awareness of the hobby? Many people are aware that some collect and > restore old cars, but that hasn't stopped our idiot governor, Paris > Spenddenning, and our state Senatocrats, here in Maryland, from > passing laws coercing junkyards to destroy any car over 10 years old > within a few days or so of its arrival. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From mbg at world.std.com Wed Aug 1 07:03:27 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: DEC VT180 (Robin) References: <092401c119de$79f136d0$6401a8c0@dbnh> <200107312237.SAA03221@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200108011203.IAA13019@world.std.com> >If you do get a chance to look through the VT180 stuff, I could easily >drive down to Nashua to pick up a copy of the disks. I'm just in Bedford. Ah, but the disks are in Framingham... I *work* in nashua... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Aug 1 07:55:47 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879C27@MAIL10> Boy, I'd love one of those. I want to get a 22U Compaq rack for my new server and RAID array, but I haven't been able to locate one nearby. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:08 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: small rack enclosures, seen this one? On August 1, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody ever seen one of these before: > > http://images.sunhelp.org/rack/rack-hardware/ > > ITS SO CUTE. I love it.. had an RX01 and some > other stuff in it (which is now all out in the garage > on the workbench waiting to be cleaned up). Took me > about an hour to clean up the cabinet/enclosure itself, > tighten up the rails, etc.. but it ended up being a > perfectly temporary home for my "home network" gear > until I re-fill it with PDP stuff. > > I'd just never seen such a "contemporary office > enviroment"-styled enclosure. The top even matches my desk. 8-) > > (label on it says d|i|g|i|t|a|l pdp11 system) Wow...I've only seen one of those once...been looking for one for a while. Take good care of that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 1 08:14:21 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Totaly OT In-Reply-To: <200108010208.f71283I65235@bg-tc-ppp1340.monmouth.com> References: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at "Jul 31, 2001 04:34:54 pm" Message-ID: <3B681CCD.23894.1AEF8914@localhost> Is there some Member in the Baltimore MD area with a) some experiance about harbor customs, and b) some experiance about car insurance ? Thanks Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 10:31:17 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3B6820C5.1DAD@xs4all.nl> Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, but what's wrong with the existing supply? Why change? Weight reduction. There's nothing wrong (yet, I haven't tested the PSU). > We have a 'ring circuit', fused at 30A. A cable that starts from the fuse > box, loops round every outlet, and back to the fuse box. There is no > limit to the number of sockets on a ring, but there is a maximum area > that it can cover. Our fuses are 10A or 16A by default, although they can be replaced by 20A fuses when requested from the power company. Cable diameter is 2.5mm^2, massive core. A normal circuit lasts 3.5KW, and when using 20A fuses it's 4.4KW. Our plugs are not fused by themselfs. Since in my hobby room I have 2 sockets on the same fuse, I may just need to either upgrade the fuse in the switchbox, or lay an extra cable with it's own fuse. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 1 08:58:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: DIAB DS-90 Message-ID: <3647.613T800T8984181optimus@canit.se> I went to the junk yard today again. They obviously don't like my intrusion (well, they wouldn't notice mine, since I clean up after going through their stuff, but some others are not as discrete...), because they had welded a mesh of iron bars in the opening in the fence. Not that it would stop us, we still managed to bring a 20", a 17" and a 14" monitor out, along with all sorts of junk. I didn't catch much this time, though. The most interesting items were a 9->15 pin VGA cable, and a pretty folder describing the advanced comfort of the Philips VCR system. =) Well, you can't be lucky each day, can you? Guess again! After coming home, I was hungry and thought I'd take a walk to the 7-Eleven, when I noticed that a skip some blocks from home contained a light table. I proceeded to investigate, when I found below the table a big box with an amazing number of TTY ports. After dragging it out, I was in for a surprise - it was a DIAB DS90-20! According to my investigations, this should be a VME-based 68020 multiuser system, running DNIX, a System III or System V version. Its predecessor DS90- 00 was also known as the Luxor ABC-9000, running ABCnix. =) The forty TTY ports on the back are sealed, so I couldn't find any I/O at all, until I found the the panel with the TTY ports would swing back to reveal blanking plates for a number of cards. I think the system has got four TTY ports, but they're not standard DB25 ports, but D15 ones. Our Tandberg terminal has got a D15 port in addition to its DB25, could these be compatible. I think the Tandberg's D15 was listed as being a V.something port. In addition to the TTY ports, there's a DIN-4 (?) port and an AC inlet. The system is turned on, off and reset with a key, which fortunately was still in the machine's lock. There's also a CEN-50, which leads me to believe that it's either got SCSI or some queer MFM controller. I'll have to pay a visit to the company which threw the machine out in order to see whether they kept any accessories or documentation. The entire system reminds me of a Stride - big bulking tower, streamer and 5? FDD, lots of TTYs, VME, m68k, AT&T licence. More info tomorrow when I'll try to power it on. UPDATE: I opened it up today, and could examine it in daylight. It is a SCSI based system, with a 140 MB full-height Maxtor drive from 1987. Opening it up is a pleasure. The side panels are removed with some firm force, then you loosen two screws and swing out panels, one of which contains the motherboard. The mobo contains a 68450 (some m68k peripheral circuit IIRC), a 68020 CPU, a 68581 MMU and a 68881 FPU. And a whole lot of other things, including some Zilog chips which I presume contain the SCSI controller. SCSI is good, that means that it may be easily backed up before I start toying with the OS. The machine is running right now. The HD is a bit on the noisy side, but I suppose it could be replaced. The mobo is also fitted with several VME slots, one of which extends into a cardcage containing three VME slots and four "DB" slots. The DB slots use a connector similar to the VME, but with only two rows of pins/sockets, and the cards are only half the height of a Europa card. Reminds me somewhat of the ABC-bus. There are also two plates for mounting additional TTYs to the four ones of the motherboard. Don't ask me where they connect. Might I add that this looks like an ideal target architecture for NetBSD? Now, if it only had Ethernet, like later models did... -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 1 09:27:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer In-Reply-To: <533.613T1016T212348rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <570.613T500T9273861optimus@canit.se> Jacob Dahl Pind skrev: >I`m not sure about the age of my Regnecentralen RC702 piccolo, >sadly its not working, I have checked the PSU, and on a reset >the 360kb 5 1/4" starts spining. Does anyone have some infomation >about those machines from Regnecentralen. Here in Denmark people >seems to have forgotten all about the machines. Isn't Regnecentralen still in business? Or am I thinking about another line of Danish computers? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 10:45:50 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 References: <092401c119de$79f136d0$6401a8c0@dbnh> <3B670031.4E56@xs4all.nl> <20010731123258.T29356@mrbill.net> <3B671BC2.1995@xs4all.nl> <3B67101D.B20509@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3B68242E.1900@xs4all.nl> Doug Carman wrote: > I am in the U.S., this is a 110 volt configuration. > > System configuration: > > PDP-11/70 CPU KB11-C w/FP11-C, 0 RH70's, 1 DL11W, 1 RX211 > MK11 1024KW > BA11 w/1 DZ11, 1 RL11, 1 KLESI, 1 DELUA, 1 UDA50 > RX02 > SA72 w/4 RA72 > RL02 > TU81+ > LA120 Intresting config. I'm not going to put too much on it, as I do not want to grow beyond the 5 available Unibus SPC slots. What I had in mind as the setup is : DL11-W RL11 Emulex SCSI (emulates RA80/RA81/RA90 etc., I use a Jazz & Zip drive for storage & backup in my 11/84) PC11 or RX211 TU80 I simply do not have the room to put in a 5th cabinet, alhough that would be ideal. > The entire system is fed with a single 220V 30A circuit which is split > into two 110V 30A circuits through an 861-D power controller. I have to use a single phase 220V/16A line or to upgrade it to a 20A fuse. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 1 08:42:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010801005900.023e8320@209.185.79.193>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:59:46AM -0700 References: <20010801010914.H19901@mrbill.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20010801005900.023e8320@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <20010801084230.Y19901@mrbill.net> On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:59:46AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > Yes, it looks so sad without the PDP inside of it. And if you'll re-read my message, the PDP stuff (which is covered in a THICK layer of dirt and dust) is out in the garage awaiting a thorough dissasembly, cleaning, and reassembly before I put the stuff BACK IN the little rack cabinet. Seeing as its the middle of summer, with 101F days here, and no AC in the garage, the PDP systems may not be cleaned for a couple of weeks, so until then, I put other equipment in the cabinet. Or would you prefer that I just let it sit and gather MORE dust in the garage until I'm able to work on it? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 1 09:05:24 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) g. From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 11:01:57 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer References: <570.613T500T9273861optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B6827F5.39F@xs4all.nl> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Isn't Regnecentralen still in business? Or am I thinking about another line of > Danish computers? > You are probably thinking of DDE (Dansk Data Elektonik). I used to work with these between '84 and '90. At that time the used the 680x0 cpu's before they switched over to MIPS cpu's. They called the systems 'Supermax' and the logo was a big Danish dog. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 09:02:36 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? In-Reply-To: <20010801010914.H19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010801140236.97901.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody ever seen one of these before: > > http://images.sunhelp.org/rack/rack-hardware/ Yes. When I got a small load of PDP-11/03s from Ohio State, they were all in those. I'm still using them for PDP-11s (RX01 + BA11N), but I'm contemplating sticking a couple of RL02s in one so I can roll them around and put them on whatever needs them at the moment. > I'd just never seen such a "contemporary office > enviroment"-styled enclosure. The top even matches my desk. 8-) I've never seen many of them, that's for sure. Mostly, for "office" use, I've seen the 42" cabs. We had a satellite office with a VAX 11/730 and a PDP-11/24 for e-mail/word processing and accounting, respectively in the 42" racks. On a tangent, someone hacked that 11/24 between the time we removed the financial packs and the day we closed that office. I went out there to power it down and uncable it and there was 6" of login failures in console paper behind the LA-36. They started on a Friday and finally guessed a password about 05:30 on Monday. It didn't gain them much - I think the logs were only a few hours old when I brought it down for the last time. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 09:06:54 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Wired covers VCF east In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010801140654.92066.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> >The main VCF is at least four times larger than VCF East was, and there's >no reason that VCF East can't be the same size. I know there are more >collectors on the east coast than bothered to show up. Bad timing for me. Couldn't get away this past weekend. In any case, I'm Central Ohio, which is not exactly on the East Coast (unless you are from California ;-) I drove to N.J. in June - out on Friday, back during Sunday. Given that recent experience, there was no way I was going to drive to VCF East, even if I _could_ have gone. 8 hours is about my limit in a car before it gets to be too much. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 11:17:38 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: DIAB DS-90 References: <3647.613T800T8984181optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B682BA2.79D8@xs4all.nl> Iggy Drougge wrote: > it was a DIAB DS90-20! Another old memory. You should have found this machine about a half year earlier! I did remove all my DIAB documentation (including the network manual) last January. The only thing I have left are 4 cardboard boxes where the manuals were placed in. I may still have a 68450 or so in my box of cpu spares. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From anthonycouzens at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 09:21:45 2001 From: anthonycouzens at hotmail.com (Anthony Couzens) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: So do you still want this Northstar or what?! Message-ID: Dear sir/madam, My name is Anthony Couzens. I am the current owner and son of the original owner of The Computer Junk Shop, Widnes. I have just fallen over your message posted on the internet regarding a Northstar PC you saw in our shop some ten years ago. It may (but most likely may not!) surprise you to find out that we still have this PC, as it was the first PC my father ever bought and one that he had to travel specially to America to buy a very long time ago. He has kept it until now as part of a collection of antiques but if you were especially interested in it perhaps I could put you in touch with him. Let me know what you think! Regards, Anthony Couzens THE COMPUTER JUNK SHOP Tel: 0151 4206671 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 1 09:28:17 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010731120603.00a60080@mailhost.intellistar.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20010731133816.02791ab0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010801092640.02a55730@pc> At 01:09 AM 8/1/01 -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: >Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready >thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil >that? An authentic bagel is boiled before it is baked. It gives it the right crust and chewiness. Some of the lesser varieties in the chain bagel shops are simply baked, and aren't quite the same as the real thing. - John From nbsdbob at weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Wed Aug 1 09:49:24 2001 From: nbsdbob at weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (NetBSD Bob) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Latest acquistions In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Jul 31, 2001 01:42:04 PM Message-ID: <200108011449.KAA02780@weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > Ok so I just picked up two very cool things for the House of VAX. They are > both DSSI to SCSI controllers. For the House de VAXentoyz, it is always marvelous! Yeah, very cool. I would almost give me eye teeth, as the ol man was want to say, for some (or even one) of those dssi-scsi storageworks modules. > One was made by DEC and plugs into a Storage works storage shelf! That one > is so cool. Turn a storage shelf into a DSSI shelf. Its very weird to see > the RZ29's in the shelf with labels DIA240, DIA250, etc. That is the critter. If you ever want to part with it....holler. I sense you will use that for 4000/xxx dssi to scsi VAXenspeak? > I also picked up three storage works shelves, two with redundant supplies > and one with only one supply. Generally they have 4, 5, and 3, RZ29's in > them. The one with 4 has the DSSI converter in the other end. I've got to > get pictures of these up on the web site soon, they are really neat. I run a few of those storage works shelves on my alphas. It is very nice to be able to mount up 7 drives on a small machine, externally, for some nice play space. Watch the jumpers inside behind the fans. There are several ways to set them. If you want to use them generically, and as a single bus, you need to check them. See the ba350ugc.pdf manual. Watch the internal slide in connectors. I have had one go bad on me, for no good reason, so have to settle for 6 drives on that one...(:+{{... Good Luck. Bob From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Aug 1 09:50:56 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Varian Collectors Heads-Up Message-ID: Goto: www.abebooks.com and do a 'search' with Varian 620/L in the Title field to bring up a copy of the Operation and Information manual for the computer. This book is from 1971 and there only appears to be one copy. I thought that there were some folks here who had Varian gear. I found this while looking for microwave tube info. Cheers John From bill at cs.scranton.edu Wed Aug 1 10:12:56 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <1057.612T650T1383911optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 31 Jul 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > I saw a Volvo 740 on the cover of a car mag today which accelerated faster > than a Porsche 911. I remember when the BMW 2002tii was acclaimed the fastest accelerating car in the world. What they didn't tell you was that if you actually drove it that way the engine was only good for about 10K miles. Older ones used to smoke more than ford Escorts!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From stuart at zen.co.uk Wed Aug 1 10:25:43 2001 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stu) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: So do you still want this Northstar or what?! References: Message-ID: <009f01c11a9e$3dc59b40$d10917d4@office.zen.co.uk> Hi all, sorry, I think this reply was aimed at me, but as a point of interest - have any UK members visited the shop recently? Anything interesting, or just lots of grey boxes :) Stu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Couzens" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: So do you still want this Northstar or what?! > Dear sir/madam, My name is Anthony Couzens. I am the current owner and son > of the original owner of The Computer Junk Shop, Widnes. I have just fallen > over your message posted on the internet regarding a Northstar PC you saw in > our shop some ten years ago. It may (but most likely may not!) surprise you > to find out that we still have this PC, as it was the first PC my father > ever bought and one that he had to travel specially to America to buy a very > long time ago. He has kept it until now as part of a collection of antiques > but if you were especially interested in it perhaps I could put you in touch > with him. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 1 10:36:39 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> Message-ID: The proper way to cook a bagel is to slow boil then flash bake it. Doughnuts are deep fried. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready > thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil > that? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 1 10:38:58 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20010801014506.P19710-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: Hi. Nope. Not available. 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > My own personal 11/70 is still being elusive, but it's out there > > somewhere. I'll find it someday! > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > > > My father has an 11/70 (he actually was an active user back in the > > day) that has all original parts, even fuses. > > Is it *available*, or are you just torturing me? :-) > > P.S. If it is available, e-mail me directly instead of replying to the > list . > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 1 11:05:28 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> Message-ID: John Foust wrote: > There's a real drive-in movie > theater on the edge of town. We're 35 minutes from a Starbucks > or real boiled bagels, though. That sounds like a good place to live! Is not an area's quality of life inversely proportional to the existence of bagel shops or Starbucks coffee shops? Both types of businesses appear to be indications of an area on the fringe of decay, such as an area about to turn into a city, an area that's trying to mimic one of the United States' best examples of putrid places: New York City. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1285.monmouth.com Wed Aug 1 11:46:35 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1285.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:47 2005 Subject: Now I don't agree In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Aug 1, 2001 12:05:28 pm" Message-ID: <200108011646.f71Gkbn68751@bg-tc-ppp1285.monmouth.com> R.D.Davis wrote: > John Foust wrote: > > There's a real drive-in movie > > theater on the edge of town. We're 35 minutes from a Starbucks > > or real boiled bagels, though. > > That sounds like a good place to live! Is not an area's quality of > life inversely proportional to the existence of bagel shops or > Starbucks coffee shops? Both types of businesses appear to be > indications of an area on the fringe of decay, such as an area about > to turn into a city, an area that's trying to mimic one of the United > States' best examples of putrid places: New York City. I'll give you the Starbucks -- but good bagel shops are a good thing. That is places that sell mainly bagels -- not lattes and bagels. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 11:57:53 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. > > > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) to cynical bastards. From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 1 12:16:16 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: OT: Bagels & Coffee (was: Chevy Vega...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010801121034.C22380-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > > Is not an area's quality of life inversely proportional to the > existence of bagel shops or Starbucks coffee shops? Reminds me of a joke from one of Conan O'Brien's "In the Year 2000" skits: "In the Year 2000, researchers discover the secret ingredient of Starbucks coffee: a chemical that makes you forget you paid $8 for a cup of coffee." Man I love those skits... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 1 12:15:43 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010801121343.029c5760@pc> At 09:57 AM 8/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >> > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. >> > >> Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) > >to cynical bastards. And now VCF East has been mentioned on Slashdot... so far, many of the comments say "Gee, if I'd known about this event, I would've attended." My sympathies to Sellam... I know how hard it is to promote an event like this. Next time, pre-announce on Slashdot, and encourage friend-to-friend spamming in private e-mail, especially within big computer companies. - John From curt at atari-history.com Wed Aug 1 15:23:51 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Now I don't agree References: <200108011646.f71Gkbn68751@bg-tc-ppp1285.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3B686557.3DBD0081@atari-history.com> Living in Staten Island, the city of bagel shops on every corner, most open 24 hrs a day, they are a Godsend and one of the best, most convenient places when you've only got 2 mins to go in, order what you want, have it prepared and your back out the door. Starbucks are novel, and a nice occassional change, but the cost and the 10 min wait behind 2 people on line is just a waste of time for what you get. Now a tall skim latte is a little tough to get at a bagel shop, but when you weigh the plus' and minus' I'll go to the 24hr Bagel-O-Rama anyday :-) Curt Bill Pechter wrote: > R.D.Davis wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > There's a real drive-in movie > > > theater on the edge of town. We're 35 minutes from a Starbucks > > > or real boiled bagels, though. > > > > That sounds like a good place to live! Is not an area's quality of > > life inversely proportional to the existence of bagel shops or > > Starbucks coffee shops? Both types of businesses appear to be > > indications of an area on the fringe of decay, such as an area about > > to turn into a city, an area that's trying to mimic one of the United > > States' best examples of putrid places: New York City. > > I'll give you the Starbucks -- but good bagel shops are a good thing. > That is places that sell mainly bagels -- not lattes and bagels. > > Bill > > --- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 1 12:50:04 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. > > > > > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) > > to cynical bastards. Hehehe. I have to admit though, 80 Microcomputing was a pretty neat magazine. g. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 1 12:51:00 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> from Chad Fernandez at "Aug 1, 2001 01:09:34 am" Message-ID: <200108011751.KAA24641@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Whats a boiled bagel? What I think of being a bagel is a round bready > thing... like a donut, but made of bread not cake. How would you boil > that? Real bagels are made by first boiling the dough ring, then baking. Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 1 13:12:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Speech chips again In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Speech chips again" (Aug 1, 9:54) References: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: Speech chips again" (Jul 31 2:25) <3B67D1B8.18201.19CA3C9B@localhost> Message-ID: <10108011912.ZM7221@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 1, 9:54, Hans Franke wrote: > > Thanks -- some of that is helpful, even though I did find the data sheets > > on the web. Now all I need is some time to play with it... > > Well, the question is still if I should send you the data sheets ? No need, Hans; I downloaded them. Thanks, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 1 13:14:27 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010801141427.0200c9f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gene Buckle may have mentioned these words: >> > > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. >> > > >> > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) >> >> to cynical bastards. > >Hehehe. I have to admit though, 80 Microcomputing was a pretty neat >magazine. As was HotCoCo; especially in the early years... "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 13:14:11 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: Totaly OT In-Reply-To: <3B681CCD.23894.1AEF8914@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Is there some Member in the Baltimore MD area with a) some > experiance about harbor customs, and b) some experiance about > car insurance ? I haven't been back to MD since the TRS-80 days. But, ... wouldn't MD categorize your vehicle as a MOTORCYCLE? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Aug 1 13:21:55 2001 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:52 2005 Subject: O.T.: Things to do/see in San Francisco? Message-ID: Hi. Totally off-topic, but my friends and I are going to be in San Francisco the first two weeks of October, and I was wondering if anyone can recommend anything cool to do/see. We're all vegetarians, so vegetarian/vegan restaurant tips would be welcome. One of us likes repairing and collecting vintage pocket watches and wristwatches, two of us like older Irish and classical music, one of us likes aerospace museums and aerospace/computer surplus stores. We all like plants, animals, science, art, and computers. We're probably going to be renting an apartment on the bay near Mariposa street. Is there anything we need to know about that area of town? Any suggestions or pointers would be very much appreciated. Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf computer simulator! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 1 13:15:56 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: small rack enclosures, seen this one? In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: small rack enclosures, seen this one?" (Aug 1, 4:08) References: <20010801010914.H19901@mrbill.net> <15207.47348.364860.76453@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10108011915.ZM7228@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 1, 4:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 1, Bill Bradford wrote: > > Anybody ever seen one of these before: > > > > http://images.sunhelp.org/rack/rack-hardware/ > Wow...I've only seen one of those once...been looking for one for a > while. Take good care of that. I've seen one other, but the owner wanted to re-use the rack for something else and all I got was some boards. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 13:29:23 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010801141427.0200c9f0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > >> > > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. > >> > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) > >> to cynical bastards. > > > >Hehehe. I have to admit though, 80 Microcomputing was a pretty neat > >magazine. > As was HotCoCo; especially in the early years... Almost as good as Kilobaud. Perhaps you have to be a "kook" to put out a great magazine. (apologies and kudos also to Jim Warren) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 13:15:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3B6820C5.1DAD@xs4all.nl> from "wanderer" at Aug 1, 1 03:31:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 762 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010801/a8f6b860/attachment.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 1 13:53:24 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: trojan room coffee pot on ebay Message-ID: <20010801135324.P19901@mrbill.net> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260882480 -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed Aug 1 13:57:59 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam References: Message-ID: <0c3201c11abb$e69649a0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> As the former editor-in-chief of both 80 Micro and Hot CoCo, I'm flattered. Thank you. BTW, I don't remember Wayne helping out much with article assignments, editing, writing, etc. Not that I'm complaining... --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam > > >> > > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. > > >> > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) > > >> to cynical bastards. > > > > > >Hehehe. I have to admit though, 80 Microcomputing was a pretty neat > > >magazine. > > As was HotCoCo; especially in the early years... > > Almost as good as Kilobaud. Perhaps you have to be a "kook" to put out a > great magazine. (apologies and kudos also to Jim Warren) > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 1 14:07:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: O.T.: Things to do/see in San Francisco? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722555E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hi. Totally off-topic, but my friends and I are going to be in San > Francisco the first two weeks of October, and I was wondering if > anyone can recommend anything cool to do/see. We're all vegetarians, > so vegetarian/vegan restaurant tips would be welcome. Can you find a vegan restaurant in San Francisco? Can you find a coffee shop in Seattle? Can you find a redneck bar in Louisville? Seriously, I think if you'd need any help in S.F., it would be to find where you could get a good steak; clearly, steak is not on your itinerary. Never even been there, but I'll bet you can't swing a dead cat (oops, another meat joke) without hitting a vegetarian place. Good luck! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 1 14:09:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722555F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > >> > > Don't be such a cynical bastard. You'll end up like Wayne Green. > > >> > Yick. Now THAT's an insult. :) > > >> to cynical bastards. > > > > > >Hehehe. I have to admit though, 80 Microcomputing was a pretty neat > > >magazine. > > As was HotCoCo; especially in the early years... > > Almost as good as Kilobaud. Perhaps you have to be a "kook" to put out a > great magazine. (apologies and kudos also to Jim Warren) Kilobaud was great, as was SCCS Interface Age/Interface Age. -dq From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Aug 1 14:13:12 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: [snip] > Does this mean you can have the rediculous situation of a piece of 3A > mains cable (say for a table lamp) being protected by the 20A fuse in the > fuse box? Ouch! Certainly in the US. Typical branch circuits are 15 or 20A at a nominal 115V (although voltages between 110 and 130 are common, largely as a function of how the single phase was derived). The NEC doesn't consider the fact that a given appliance that's plugged into such a branch circuit may have an attached cord that is rated at less that the rating of the branch to be an issue; it simply requires that in the absence of a overcurrent that the rating of the cord match be appropriate for the current draw of the appliance. The rational is that since the NEC also requires fast-acting circuit protection devices with the ability to interrupt at least 10,000A that a catastrophic failure won't have time to cause significant heating in the cord. Of course this doesn't address the issue of devices which may fail at a current draw that is substantially above the devices nominal draw but less than the rating of the branch -- but then neither do individually fused outlets unless you are careful to change the fuse each time you connect a device -- which I've certainly never observed happening in my visits to the UK. Instead almost all appliances and devices are required to have some level of internal protection -- be it fused, breakered or thermal -- before they can earn a safety rating (in the US we're typically talking about UL) -- without which it's very difficult to actually _sell_ something. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 1 14:31:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: FS: SCSI Scanner Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010801122920.032430d0@209.185.79.193> Does anyone in the S.F. Bay area need or want a UMAX 600DPI/30bit color/flat bed/SCSI interface scanner? Comes with scanner, software (PC Win 3.1/Win 95/Win NT), cables, terminator, and SCSI card (ISA). This was my scanner of choice until I upgraded to a USB based scanner. I can make you a good deal ($10 and its all yours, bwa-hahaha) or come by Saturday to our garage sale and bargain us down :-) --Chuck From MRiley at avt-hq.com Wed Aug 1 14:28:59 2001 From: MRiley at avt-hq.com (Michael Riley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: HP-64000 Development System Manuals Message-ID: <3B68587B.3C2B0C65@avt-hq.com> I realize this is a long shot, but it is worth the try. I found an old letter in the 'classiccmp' archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-06/0103.html It was from "Joe" at "rigdonj@intellistar.net" which is apparently a bad address now. He was trying to sell and/or get rid of a whole stack of HP-64000 Development System manuals. If Joe, or someone else, still has such manuals I would be very interested to know. We would probably be interested in purchasing those manuals. We have inherited an HP-64000 Development System and are in the process of resurrecting an old firmware project. Progress is slow. I think we could use the manuals to help understand how to use the system more effectively. I also think that we will have to support this new firmware for some time to come. Therefore, manuals (operations, service, etc.) would be very nice to have, on-the-shelf. My contact information is provided below. Thank you. Mike. -- *************************** * Notices: * * We will close at 1700 hrs on 8 August, 2001. * We will re-open at 0800 hrs on 17 August, 2001 * --->> Plan Accordingly !! <<--- * * Our electronic addresses changed in the summer of 1999. * Please update your address list and bookmarks. *************************** Michael Riley Advanced Vehicle Technologies, Inc. 1509 Manor View Road Davidsonville, MD 21035 USA +1-410-798-4038 (voice) +1-410-798-4308 (fax) support@avt-hq.com (e-mail) http://www.avt-hq.com (home page) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 1 14:56:13 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Almost as good as Kilobaud. Perhaps you have to be a "kook" to put out a > great magazine. (apologies and kudos also to Jim Warren) > Speaking of Kilobaud... does anyone have a few copies of that and Interface Age they'd like to part with? g. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 14:46:51 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) Message-ID: >Certainly in the US. Typical branch circuits are 15 or 20A at a nominal >115V (although voltages between 110 and 130 are common, largely as a >function of how the single phase was derived). The NEC doesn't >consider >the fact that a given appliance that's plugged into such a >branch circuit >may have an attached cord that is rated at less that >the rating of the >branch to be an issue; it simply requires that in >the absence of a >overcurrent that the rating of the cord match be >appropriate for the >current draw of the appliance. You sure about that? >From what I understand, every conductor must be capable of carrying a current greater than the breaker that protects it. Otherwise, the cord would be the first thing thing to fail in a overcurrent situation. This would present a very significant fire danger. Even the cheapest kitchen appliances have fairly heavy power cords. It's not because they draw a lot of current or the manufacturers are generous, it's because the fuses / breakers in your kitchen have a higher amperage rating than in other places in the home. So, those appliances must have heavier cords to offer protection. SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 1 14:55:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: HP-64000 Development System Manuals In-Reply-To: <3B68587B.3C2B0C65@avt-hq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Michael Riley wrote: > I realize this is a long shot, but it is worth the try. > > I found an old letter in the 'classiccmp' archive: > http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-06/0103.html > > It was from "Joe" at "rigdonj@intellistar.net" which is apparently a bad > address now. It was a good address as of yesterday, however, I have the impression from a couple of returns by the postmaster that he has a mailbox limitation and it is/was full. - don > He was trying to sell and/or get rid of a whole stack of HP-64000 > Development System manuals. > > If Joe, or someone else, still has such manuals I would be very > interested to know. We would probably be interested in purchasing those > manuals. > > We have inherited an HP-64000 Development System and are in the process > of resurrecting an old firmware project. Progress is slow. I think we > could use the manuals to help understand how to use the system more > effectively. I also think that we will have to support this new > firmware for some time to come. Therefore, manuals (operations, > service, etc.) would be very nice to have, on-the-shelf. > > My contact information is provided below. > Thank you. > > Mike. > -- > *************************** > * Notices: > * > * We will close at 1700 hrs on 8 August, 2001. > * We will re-open at 0800 hrs on 17 August, 2001 > * --->> Plan Accordingly !! <<--- > * > * Our electronic addresses changed in the summer of 1999. > * Please update your address list and bookmarks. > *************************** > > Michael Riley > Advanced Vehicle Technologies, Inc. > 1509 Manor View Road > Davidsonville, MD 21035 > USA > > +1-410-798-4038 (voice) > +1-410-798-4308 (fax) > > support@avt-hq.com (e-mail) > http://www.avt-hq.com (home page) > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 1 14:51:14 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Now MG TDs Re: OT justice (flamebait) and cars In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010731154941.00a60480@mail.wincom.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010801153628.00a75230@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:01 PM 7/31/01 -0400, Charles wrote: >> Charlie Fox (MG TD Owner) Cool! I used to have a '52 TD. It was stripped when I got it so I stuffed a maxed out 340 Plymouth engine and a Torqueflight tranny to it then added an IRS suspension from a Jag in the rear and an MGB front suspension (including four wheel disk brakes). I put the Jag and MG wire wheels and it looked like a million dollars and there was NOTHING in Northern California that would keep up with it! I wish I still had it but Uncle Sam transferred me to Vermont and I had to sell it. Sheesh! Joe > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 > foxvideo@wincom.net > Check out: > Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 1 14:59:17 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010801155218.00a7d860@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:43 PM 7/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >You do have an option today. Buy a nice looking car and put an Edelbrock >engine, four-barrel, intakes, etc. in it. Four barrel ???? That would be a step backwards. I'm currently running 3x 2 barrels on an Edelbrock designed intake. (original 1970 Dodge Challanger RT convertible with 440 six-pack) Gas mileage? What's that? Actually it's not too bad. I get about 15-16 MPG on the highway. But you should see what the gas gauge does when I put my foot to it and the second and third of carbs kick in! Joe >Peace... Sridhar > >On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, joe wrote: > > > and Americans aren't known for frequent car maintainance. > > > > There was a time when frequent car maintenance was easier and more > > convenient for Americans who aren't shade-tree mechanics. What I'm > > referring to is the scarcity these days of convenient places to get a > > tune-up, grease job and oil change. Places like Jiffy Lube don't > > count, as they're as likely to damage a car as they are to change the > > oil, etc. properly. Not so long ago, there was a higher percentage of > > corner gas stations, with more than one mechanic working in them, to > > cars. One could often just drive up to a service station, pull into a > > bay, and get a car repaired without having to drop it off or make an > > appointment. > > > > Even finding a mechanic who can perform a tune up is becoming > > difficult; many don't know how to adjust points or carburators, and > > one can forget about having the dwell adjusted or getting a > > distributor curved; one shop that I called about the later had no idea > > as to what I was talking about. If they'd get all these new cars with > > ridiculously overly complex engines off the road and put carburators > > and distributors with points back in cars, people would have fewer > > problems with maintenance and finding parts 20 years later. Of > > course, Big Brother wouldn't like that, as the old cars can't be > > stopped by a high-energy blast that makes electronic components in the > > new engines break down. > > > > -- > > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other > animals: > > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above > Nature & > > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to > justify such > > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 1 15:13:22 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: O.T.: Things to do/see in San Francisco? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722555E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > Never even been there, but I'll bet you can't swing a dead cat > (oops, another meat joke) without hitting a vegetarian place. > Hey, if it wasn't for vegans, us omnivores woudn't have anyone to make fun of. :) g. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 1 15:03:56 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: <1057.612T650T1383911optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: In 1976 the fastest (0-60 mph) production car sold in america had 118 hp, remember what it was? I drove one briefly and it sure was a kick to drive. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 1 13:59:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Vintage computing needs a good press release In-Reply-To: References: <00d101c11935$ce46ebc0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: Maybe what we need to do is to write up a press release, you know the fact and spin document most "real" newspaper stories are cut and pasted from? Maybe even a press kit with not only several segments of text, but supporting pictures etc. Nobody else on the planet relies on the talent of reporters to get either the facts correct, or to put the spin on them that we want. Clearly it isn't enough to "tell" reporters, since they rarely take verbatim notes and those holes get filled in later with crap. Once we have some kind of master document, it should be easy enough to put together shorter topical bits, things we can paste together quickly to support smaller events. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Aug 1 15:19:56 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Robertson wrote: > You sure about that? Yep. I asked my local NEC language lawyer about it before posting. > From what I understand, every conductor must be capable of carrying a > current greater than the breaker that protects it. Otherwise, the cord would > be the first thing thing to fail in a overcurrent situation. This would > present a very significant fire danger. In the context of building wiring, yes. Not in the context of appliance wiring. 22GA zip cord, such as found on US lamps, isn't capable of sustaining 20A@115V without heating -- and you can certainly plug a 15A plug into a 20A receptacle. In a catastrophic overcurrent situation, i.e. a dead short, the breaker will long before the cord even warms. It's the failure mode where the appliance draws more than it's designed to draw but less that the branch protection rating that the problem occurs -- which is why most consumer electronic devices have mains protection sized to their demand and most kitchen appliances have self-resetting thermal overload cut-outs. > Even the cheapest kitchen appliances have fairly heavy power cords. It's not > because they draw a lot of current or the manufacturers are generous, it's > because the fuses / breakers in your kitchen have a higher amperage rating > than in other places in the home. So, those appliances must have heavier > cords to offer protection. Your home, maybe :-). Every branch in mine is rated at 20A. The reason _most_ kitchen appliances have heavy cords is because _most_ of them are double insulated. Then again, I've got an electric kettle that has a regular zip cord on it -- and yes, it heats up during operation. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 15:20:28 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Steve Robertson wrote: > From what I understand, every conductor must be capable of carrying a > current greater than the breaker that protects it. Take a look at a string of Christmas tree lights. > Otherwise, the cord would > be the first thing thing to fail in a overcurrent situation. This would > present a very significant fire danger. It does. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 1 15:20:32 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225560@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Almost as good as Kilobaud. Perhaps you have to be a "kook" to put out a > > great magazine. (apologies and kudos also to Jim Warren) > > > Speaking of Kilobaud... does anyone have a few copies of that and > Interface Age they'd like to part with? Ray Borrill was selling his collection on E-Bay (he has health problems and needs the money), but I think he's all out now. However, last year, I saw several other people selling them, so that might be your best bet for picking up missing issues. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 1 15:21:29 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: SCSI Scanner Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225561@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Does anyone in the S.F. Bay area need or want a UMAX 600DPI/30bit > color/flat bed/SCSI interface scanner? Comes with scanner, software (PC Win > 3.1/Win 95/Win NT), cables, terminator, and SCSI card (ISA). This was my > scanner of choice until I upgraded to a USB based scanner. I can make you a > good deal ($10 and its all yours, bwa-hahaha) or come by Saturday to our > garage sale and bargain us down :-) If no one wants it as-is, might you consider removing the lamps and selling just them (I've got one with unusably dim lamps). Regards, -dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 1 15:32:08 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: HP-64000 Development System Manuals In-Reply-To: <3B68587B.3C2B0C65@avt-hq.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010801162216.00a7b410@mailhost.intellistar.net> Michael, At 03:28 PM 8/1/01 -0400, you wrote: >I realize this is a long shot, but it is worth the try. > >I found an old letter in the 'classiccmp' archive: > http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-06/0103.html > >It was from "Joe" at "rigdonj@intellistar.net" which is apparently a bad >address now. Nope, it's still a good address, I don't know why you couldn't get through to it. But I gave the manuals to another member of this list and I eventually scrapped the systems so I can't help you there. I'll forward your message to him and to a couple of other people that have 64000s and see if they can help. FWIW I have a HP 64110 with a 68000 pod that I don't need. Let me know if you're interested. Reply directly to me since the classicmp address goes to a mailing list. I'm sending a copy of my reply to the list in case anyone there may be able to help. Joe >He was trying to sell and/or get rid of a whole stack of HP-64000 >Development System manuals. > >If Joe, or someone else, still has such manuals I would be very >interested to know. We would probably be interested in purchasing those >manuals. > >We have inherited an HP-64000 Development System and are in the process >of resurrecting an old firmware project. Progress is slow. I think we >could use the manuals to help understand how to use the system more >effectively. I also think that we will have to support this new >firmware for some time to come. Therefore, manuals (operations, >service, etc.) would be very nice to have, on-the-shelf. > >My contact information is provided below. >Thank you. > > Mike. >-- >*************************** >* Notices: >* >* We will close at 1700 hrs on 8 August, 2001. >* We will re-open at 0800 hrs on 17 August, 2001 >* --->> Plan Accordingly !! <<--- >* >* Our electronic addresses changed in the summer of 1999. >* Please update your address list and bookmarks. >*************************** > > Michael Riley > Advanced Vehicle Technologies, Inc. > 1509 Manor View Road > Davidsonville, MD 21035 > USA > > +1-410-798-4038 (voice) > +1-410-798-4308 (fax) > > support@avt-hq.com (e-mail) > http://www.avt-hq.com (home page) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 1 15:21:21 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: <3B678F0E.4DD4F65C@internet1.net> Message-ID: >> or real boiled bagels, though. > >States' best examples of putrid places: New York City. My only REAL complaint about NYC is the cost of living. With plenty of dough, and I don't mean to make bagels with, and BTW I am fairly surprized you people didn't know the purpose of boiling is to kill the yeast, most cosmopolitian cities become quite attractive. If you lack the cash though, the big cities quickly can tell you that you don't belong. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 1 15:41:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Even the cheapest kitchen appliances have fairly heavy power cords. It's not >because they draw a lot of current or the manufacturers are generous, it's >because the fuses / breakers in your kitchen have a higher amperage rating >than in other places in the home. So, those appliances must have heavier >cords to offer protection. Kitchen appliances often DO draw a large current and the guage of wire is based on what the appliance needs, which is why they have power cords of various sizes, 12, 14, 16, 18 guage. Don't judge the wire by its cover, fat wires can have thin conductors. I doubt you will ever see more than 16 awg on a hand mixer though. Nothing but 20 amp circuits in my house except for the AC, Dryer, etc. which have dedicated outlets and most of the time are 220. All the 120 volt outlets in my house are standard 15 amp, 20 amp uses a slightly different blade size, but isn't something typical for a kitchen. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 1 15:39:53 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: < <1057.612T650T1383911optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010801163551.00a83a30@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:03 PM 8/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >In 1976 the fastest (0-60 mph) production car sold in america had 118 hp, >remember what it was? Are you kidding? I bought two of my favorite toys in 1976 . Both were 1970 models, one pumped out 390+ hp and the other well over 425 hp! (Plymouth 440 six pack and Plymouth 426 Hemi). Joe >I drove one briefly and it sure was a kick to drive. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 15:28:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: from "Chris Kennedy" at Aug 1, 1 12:13:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010801/738b0dad/attachment.ksh From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Aug 1 15:46:19 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: CD-R utility Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660A4@exc-reo1> > Rob Lion wrote: > >For those of you who were discussing the merits of CD-R manufacturers and >dyes a week or so ago, I ran across a Windows program tonight that might be >of interest. Apparently it can tell you the real manufacturer and dye type >used on the disc. Find it at: http://www.gum.de/it/download/english.htm Has a useful facility to copy to the clipboard too :-) So from the info below (taken from a 700MB 80min blank 16x) how worried should I be about long-term data retention? And why? And what answers would be better? Antonio ATIP: 97m 15s 17f Disc Manufacturer: Ritek Co. Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine) Media type: CD-Recordable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849) From bills at adrenaline.com Wed Aug 1 15:56:19 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe the basic idea of the NEC is to keep you from having an unseen fire in the walls. What happens to the exposed power cords is your problem. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Aug 1 15:53:09 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660A5@exc-reo1> >Of course this doesn't address the issue of devices which may fail at a >current draw that is substantially above the devices nominal draw but >less than the rating of the branch -- but then neither do individually >fused outlets unless you are careful to change the fuse each time you >connect a device -- which I've certainly never observed happening in my >visits to the UK. Instead almost all appliances and devices are required In the UK, the MCB (circuit-breaker) or fuse in the main box is there to protect the ring main (the wiring in the wall). The fuse in the plug is there to protect the power cord. If the appliance needs protecting, it should have its own fuse :-) No fuse can guarantee that the appliance won't burst into flames - the appliance is supposed to have passed some minimal safety testing to make that unlikely - if it needs fuses to pass the test they'll be fitted internally. The remainder of the system does its best to ensure your iring won't burst into flames. Antonio From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 1 16:03:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225564@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >You do have an option today. Buy a nice looking car and put an Edelbrock > >engine, four-barrel, intakes, etc. in it. > > Four barrel ???? That would be a step backwards. I'm currently > running 3x 2 barrels on an Edelbrock designed intake. (original 1970 Dodge > Challanger RT convertible with 440 six-pack) Anyone here old enough to remember this: Well, I stepped off the pavement into my cut-down-short... Cat in the next lane, says, "Man, you look like a real sport." He said "when that light turns green, I'm gonna dig out ahead of you." Well, I answered him back, like about the, only way I could... <- wrong lyric .......vvvvvVVVVVVRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!! I got three carburetors.... ...twin pipes... I got three carburetors.... ...milled heads... I got three carburetors and no-body's passin' me... So, I pulled up to the stoplight, just my baby and me. Same cat pulled upside, he was GREEN with N-V. He said "man, what you got under that crazy, fat hood" Well, I answered him back, like about the, only way I could... .......vvvvvVVVVVVRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!! ... Well, I wheeled off of the highway, and down under the underpass, when all of a sudden, I was like Ooo, out of gas! dah-dah-dah-dah-dom-dom dom-dom "Well, man, what happened?" dom-dom "I don't know, I can't dig this scene, something's gotta give" dom-dom "Well, fella, I dig on your predicment. You got ...three carburetors.... ...twin pipes... I got three carburetors.... ...milled heads... I got three carburetors and no-body's passin' me... > Gas mileage? What's that? Actually it's not too bad. I get > about 15-16 MPG on the highway. But you should see what the gas gauge does > when I put my foot to it and the second and third of carbs kick in! I still get chills when I hear the blower on the 327 on Mad Max's car in the first movie... didn't that have an Edelbrock manifold? -dq From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Aug 1 16:29:08 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225564@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: DQ wrote: [Memory lane, snipped] Thanks for that ;-) > I still get chills when I hear the blower on the 327 on Mad Max's > car in the first movie... didn't that have an Edelbrock manifold? I remember thinking that it looked like it had a 6-71 on it, and Edelbrock certainly makes (or at least made) manifolds for suck-through applications of the 6-71. However I also remember the blower being clutched, which made little sense -- unless it was a blow-through application with some sort of bypass for when the blower was shut down. Whatever. It had that nice 6-71 whine, which is what _really_ matters :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 1 15:49:40 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam References: Message-ID: <000201c11adb$9d0e3ac0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Speaking of Kilobaud... does anyone have a few copies > of that and Interface Age they'd like to part with? Do you liike 'Microcomputing'? Isn't it Kilobaud but later? David Greelish was selling some for $0.50 at the VCFE I picked up two (7-81,1-83). John A. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 1 18:27:19 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010801163551.00a83a30@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: < <1057.612T650T1383911optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >>In 1976 the fastest (0-60 mph) production car sold in america had 118 hp, >>remember what it was? > > > Are you kidding? I bought two of my favorite toys in 1976 . Both >were 1970 models, one pumped out 390+ hp and the other well over 425 >hp! (Plymouth 440 six pack and Plymouth 426 Hemi). Sure, but by 1976 the fastest production car being sold was a Lotus Europa John Player Special with if my memory isn't too defective had 118 HP from a 1.6L engine. Zero to 60 MPH was a modest mid 6 second time, but I think it was just enough to edge out Z-28, which had lots more power, but twice the weight. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 19:32:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: < <1057.612T650T1383911optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Sure, but by 1976 the fastest production car being sold was a Lotus Europa >John Player Special with if my memory isn't too defective had 118 HP from a >1.6L engine. Zero to 60 MPH was a modest mid 6 second time, but I think it >was just enough to edge out Z-28, which had lots more power, but twice the >weight. Does the 427 Cobra roadster still hold the all-time 0-60? I know that it used to be the fastest production car in that respect and was listed in Guiness for a while, though I've not looked at one in years. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 1 20:16:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:53 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For a production car or for any car? I am pretty sure someone has probably cooked up one that's quicker. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Does the 427 Cobra roadster still hold the all-time 0-60? I > know that it used to be the fastest production car in that respect > and was listed in Guiness for a while, though I've not looked > at one in years. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 1 20:51:22 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3B68B21A.E062D0E5@bellsouth.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > Does this mean you can have the rediculous situation of a piece of 3A > mains cable (say for a table lamp) being protected by the 20A fuse in the > fuse box? Ouch! Everything in the U.S. is wired that way. Central circuit breakers/fuses and anything plugged in to the circuit beyond that. That's why they started making Xmas tree lights with fuses in the plugs. Imagine shorting out a string of lights with a 20A breaker feeding the circuit. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 1 21:12:42 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225564@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: [someone wrote:] > > >You do have an option today. Buy a nice looking car and put an Edelbrock > > >engine, four-barrel, intakes, etc. in it. Do emissions laws allow this for newer car bodies? If one buys a 1990 Lincoln and stuffs a heavily modified 460 engine and C6 transmission, pulled out of a 1972 vehicle, into it, is it considered a 1990 or a 1972 vehicle for emissions standards? > > Four barrel ???? That would be a step backwards. I'm > > currently running 3x 2 barrels on an Edelbrock designed intake. > > (original 1970 Dodge Challanger RT convertible with 440 six-pack) Nice car! > Anyone here old enough to remember this: > > Gas mileage? What's that? Actually it's not too bad. I get You mean the number of gallons used per mile? :-) > > about 15-16 MPG on the highway. But you should see what the gas gauge does > > when I put my foot to it and the second and third of carbs kick in! Let me guess, the needle moves to the left faster than mine does when my 4V carb's secondaries kick in. :-) ...and I'll bet it feels good! -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 1 21:35:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > [someone wrote:] > > > >You do have an option today. Buy a nice looking car and put an Edelbrock > > > >engine, four-barrel, intakes, etc. in it. > > Do emissions laws allow this for newer car bodies? If one buys a 1990 > Lincoln and stuffs a heavily modified 460 engine and C6 transmission, > pulled out of a 1972 vehicle, into it, is it considered a 1990 or a 1972 > vehicle for emissions standards? Well, I was talking about using a brand new Edelbrock engine with a highflow cat. Peace... Sridhar From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 1 18:17:19 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer In-Reply-To: <3B6827F5.39F@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <755.614T950T175051optimus@canit.se> wanderer skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Isn't Regnecentralen still in business? Or am I thinking about another line >> of Danish computers? >> >You are probably thinking of DDE (Dansk Data Elektonik). I used to >work with these between '84 and '90. At that time the used the 680x0 >cpu's before they switched over to MIPS cpu's. That sounds more like it. Wouldn't mind on of those. >They called the systems 'Supermax' and the logo was a big Danish dog. A great dane? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Wenn ich ein Junge w?r / das wu?te ich so gut / was so ein junger Boy / aus lauter Liebe tut /?ich w?rde in die Schwulenscene gehn /?und sexy Boys den Kopf verdrehn / ich h?tt genug Verkehr / wenn ich ein Junge w?r. Wenn ich ein Junge w?r - Nina Hagen From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Aug 1 22:08:29 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) Message-ID: <11f.293a703.289a1e2d@aol.com> In a message dated 8/1/01 10:50:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: << On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > [someone wrote:] > > > >You do have an option today. Buy a nice looking car and put an Edelbrock > > > >engine, four-barrel, intakes, etc. in it. > > Do emissions laws allow this for newer car bodies? If one buys a 1990 > Lincoln and stuffs a heavily modified 460 engine and C6 transmission, > pulled out of a 1972 vehicle, into it, is it considered a 1990 or a 1972 > vehicle for emissions standards? >> as I understand it, the car must have the emission controls that came with that year car body. so, putting a 1986 ford turbo engine in my 1979 pinto shouldnt be a problem. heh. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From ken at seefried.com Wed Aug 1 22:08:27 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: OT: HVD SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <200108020239.VAA38780@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108020239.VAA38780@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010802030827.13232.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Yup...narrow diff is well defined. There's an X-Y matrix of SCSI standards that have X == single ended or differential and Y == [ async narrow (5Mb/s), sync narrow (10Mb/s), sync wide (20Mb/s) ]. Once you get to wide fast, Ultra SCSI (aka SCSI3) and LVD SCSI, et. al., things get a bit odd. My Sun SS20 has a nice wide diff SCSI controller (20Mb/s) with a 4GB Seagate disk. Makes a big difference over the narrow internal drives. Ken Seefried, CISSP From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 1 22:44:28 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > Well, I was talking about using a brand new Edelbrock engine with a > highflow cat. >From what I saw on their web site, it appears that they only build Chevy 350 engines. However, I discovered that they make what appears to be an extremely nice water pump that will work with my engine. Thanks for posting something causing me to check that out! -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 1 23:10:30 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: building a PDP11 from the things you find at home In-Reply-To: <3B649681.F41CB64E@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jul 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > > >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > > > While I probably don't really understand someone who's goal is using the > > > original hardware, on the other hand, I find that any software development > > Hmmmm, this IS the classiccmp list isn't it? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Thanks for your comment - I had a good laugh. Also with a bit of tongue in > cheek, a reply ... Good, I'm glad that it gave you a laugh. :-) > Yep! It includes those nerds who need to hear the screech of a disk drive > bearing gone bad (the RD53 whine is about the best) and the broken back > achieved while lifting an RA81. Sounds like a rather honorable way to break one's back, what? > I will admit that on occasion, I do delight in using VERY OLD > hardware. About 2 years ago, I needed to transfer some data to a [...] Ah-hah! Just as I thought. :-) > Actually, I think both the hardware and software goals that we have are > crazy, but since we all seem to enjoy ourselves and I know of no law > that is being broken that will need to be invoked to slowly lower us feet > first into molten iron, it seems harmless enough. Well said. What we're doing with computers here basically amounts to having fun, which is perhaps the healthiest way to use computers! ...despite the risks we take by lifting and moving these toys about. [...] > distribution media - not that I would EVER consider the TK50 to be > a successful backup drive/media - although a TK70 at 256 MBytes > finally seems acceptable. If only TK50 and TK70 cartridges were as inexpensive and easily obtainable as 9-track magtapes. > Well, when you get to be my age (I just turned 63), you may sing a > different tune. This weekend, I just finished nursing a very sore > back into a reasonable That, I can't dispute; please be careful with lifting. [...] > boards which ended up crashing the system again. Took out the last 4 dual > boards at which point it was OK and started adding them one at a time. > Viola!!! One board to go - the M7941 and it started crashing again. Out and > replace with an M9047 - bus grant card - AND it works!!!!!! FINALLY!!!! While I'm not at all keen on the idea of board swapping, I'll still say congratulations on getting it running again! -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From technos at nerdland.org Wed Aug 1 23:21:47 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...), and increasingly OT Message-ID: <01C11AE9.1E794250.technos@nerdland.org> > > Do emissions laws allow this for newer car bodies? If one buys a > > 1990 > > Lincoln and stuffs a heavily modified 460 engine and C6 > > transmission, > > pulled out of a 1972 vehicle, into it, is it considered a 1990 or a > > 1972 > > vehicle for emissions standards? > >> > as I understand it, the car must have the emission controls that came > with > that year car body. so, putting a 1986 ford turbo engine in my 1979 > pinto > shouldnt be a problem. heh. > > -- > DB Young Team OS/2 > > old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: > www.nothingtodo.org If your state adheres to the EPA standard (voluntary), yes, it must run emissions fitting that years standard. Even then, it has to fail a check before they're even going to look at you funny. If not, well, they have a pretty high bar to prove 'unsafe equipment' and they generally don't press it. What use is bringing in a paid witness for $5K when the fine is a few hundred bucks? (Former owner of a 1989 F-150 with a 196o's 460 and a 1984 AMC wagon with a 1970's 360.. Jim, new to the list From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 2 00:22:29 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Latest addition : PDP 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3B68B21A.E062D0E5@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Doug Carman wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Does this mean you can have the rediculous situation of a piece of 3A > > mains cable (say for a table lamp) being protected by the 20A fuse in the > > fuse box? Ouch! > > Everything in the U.S. is wired that way. Central circuit > breakers/fuses and anything plugged in to the circuit beyond that. > That's why they started making Xmas tree lights with fuses in the > plugs. Imagine shorting out a string of lights with a 20A breaker > feeding the circuit. Actually, you need not short them out to be in trouble. Just hook enough of those suckers end to end and the wiring in the first one gets almighty hot - and perhaps incandesent. A friend did it to himself a number of years back. Rather exciting for a while, what with fire engines and all that. Rather embarassing later trying to explain to his fellow engineers how it happened! - don > -- > Doug Carman > pdp11@bellsouth.net > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 1 23:24:07 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: old computers Message-ID: Here's someone with what sound like first revision IBM PCs. Contact him directly. Reply-to: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 17:17:36 -0700 From: GEO Reply-To: geomelissa@hotmail.com Subject: old computers Hi, A quick question. I am in New York City. I have a couple of early IBM PC's. 64k Motherboard, etc. I can not store these any longer. Is there any one you know who might want them? I also have a bunch of 286 stuff, and some oddball hardware that no one has ever heard of anymore. I have a 5 megabyte syquest removable drive, for example. Thanks in advance, GEO --- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Aug 2 00:52:54 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures Message-ID: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it. Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment? Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E... (I know, first rule: "document where everything goes") Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 2 01:08:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: cleaning qbus enclosures (Bill Bradford) References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <15208.61023.877320.679769@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 2, Bill Bradford wrote: > I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench > out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this > has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it. > > Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment? > Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of > alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E... I had to use alcohol to dissolve the goo that 30-year-old insulative foam turns into when touched. You likely won't need that for Qbus stuff. For the first step I would suggest compressed air. Then use a clean paint brush (I have one that I keep around just for dusting things off). On the metal and plastic surfaces I tend to use glass cleaner. Some people look at me funny when I do that, but it works very well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Thu Aug 2 02:03:32 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Data General Nova memory boards Message-ID: In the daily dumpster rounds today, I ran across a pair of large boards, about 15" square, each labeled "DGC Nova2 16K memory, (c)1973 by Data General Corp". They're designed to plug into a backplane with a pair of cardedge connectors, 100 pins each. (This is, I'm sure, a well-known bus, but not well-known to me. :-) ) The two boards are essentially identical, I think; the layout looks the same but one has a layer of green enamel over the traces and the other leaves them exposed. The center of the board is taken up by a slightly smaller board, about 10"x12", labeled "DGC Nova 16K memory stack". An aluminum panel unscrews to unfold from this board, revealing a large array of (I think) core memory -- correct me if I'm wrong on this. Whatever it is, a huge amount of incredibly tiny red and green wires woven together; quite beautiful in its way. The traces on the PCBs are quite pretty as well, artistically curving along their paths. Nothing at all like the autorouted boards you see today. Anyway, rambling aside, I don't really have any use for these boards. They both have pricetags on them saying $9.95, but I have no idea from when or where. So if anyone wants them for the price of shipping or wants to pick them up from Pasadena, CA, just let me know; I'll keep them around for a few weeks at least. Otherwise, maybe I'll (non-destructively) hang them on the wall. -Rob -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GAT/E d- s:- a--- C++(++++) ULS+ P+ L+ E- W++ N+(++) o K w+++ O- M- V- PS+(+++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP t- 5- X+ R- tv b++ DI++ D++ G++ e h+ r- y ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 2 02:18:43 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Totaly OT In-Reply-To: References: <3B681CCD.23894.1AEF8914@localhost> Message-ID: <3B691AF3.13665.1ED04D46@localhost> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > Is there some Member in the Baltimore MD area with a) some > > experiance about harbor customs, and b) some experiance about > > car insurance ? > I haven't been back to MD since the TRS-80 days. > But, ... > wouldn't MD categorize your vehicle as a MOTORCYCLE? I drive on my German licence plate - and therefore it's a car. I just need an additional US incurance with minimum coverage, the stuff required by law. THis saves a lot of hassles with local shaerifs. Servus Hans (And gone - for the trip I have setup a web mail accout: Raffzahn@yahoo.de ) -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu Aug 2 03:33:36 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Data General Nova memory boards References: Message-ID: <008601c11b2d$d310dae0$0100a8c0@dellhare> G'day Rob - Ooops... I think unscrewing the core mat cover voids the DG warrantee! Sounds like 16KW DG Nova boards, and I would be glad to try to resurrect them for possible use in a Nova 2, Nova 1200 or some other such system. Do they appear to be in good mechanical shape; what about any obvious electric/electronic damage...? Bruce Ray bkr@WildHareComputers.com Novas are Forever... [www.SimuLogics.com, or now www.NovasAreForever.com] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Lion" To: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 1:03 AM Subject: Data General Nova memory boards > In the daily dumpster rounds today, I ran across a pair of large boards, > about 15" square, each labeled "DGC Nova2 16K memory, (c)1973 by Data > General Corp". They're designed to plug into a backplane with a pair of > cardedge connectors, 100 pins each. (This is, I'm sure, a well-known bus, > but not well-known to me. :-) ) > > The two boards are essentially identical, I think; the layout looks the same > but one has a layer of green enamel over the traces and the other leaves > them exposed. The center of the board is taken up by a slightly smaller > board, about 10"x12", labeled "DGC Nova 16K memory stack". An aluminum panel > unscrews to unfold from this board, revealing a large array of (I think) > core memory -- correct me if I'm wrong on this. Whatever it is, a huge > amount of incredibly tiny red and green wires woven together; quite > beautiful in its way. The traces on the PCBs are quite pretty as well, > artistically curving along their paths. Nothing at all like the autorouted > boards you see today. > > Anyway, rambling aside, I don't really have any use for these boards. They > both have pricetags on them saying $9.95, but I have no idea from when or > where. So if anyone wants them for the price of shipping or wants to pick > them up from Pasadena, CA, just let me know; I'll keep them around for a few > weeks at least. Otherwise, maybe I'll (non-destructively) hang them on the > wall. > > -Rob > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.12 > GAT/E d- s:- a--- C++(++++) ULS+ P+ L+ E- W++ > N+(++) o K w+++ O- M- V- PS+(+++) PE--(+) Y+ > PGP t- 5- X+ R- tv b++ DI++ D++ G++ e h+ r- y > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jpdavis at gorge.net Thu Aug 2 04:02:42 2001 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim D) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Data General Nova memory boards References: Message-ID: <3B691732.5DE550CA@gorge.net> I'll take them, could you send me your snail mail address and ph# Jim Davis. Rob Lion wrote: > > In the daily dumpster rounds today, I ran across a pair of large boards, > about 15" square, each labeled "DGC Nova2 16K memory, (c)1973 by Data > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 2 04:08:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> Bill, I don't know your experience with this kind of thing, hopefully it won't sound to basic. I clean almost all my computers as they usually need it. It's amazing how much newer a good cleaning can make a computer look. One of these days, I should write a short faq, or how-to, on this... it's probably the only subject that I am half qualified to do so :-) Unfortunately I've never cleaned a qbus backplane, so I can't really say. Mine, in my BA213, didn't seem to need it. I guess I'd try the vacuum first? On textured plastic use Comet, but don't press too hard, and don't let it get too dry or you'll scratch the surface. Use with a rag or tooth brush. Don't use too hard a brush if from some other source. On boards that don't have to many nooks and crannies stick them in the dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow them off. Anything smooth you can use a rag with dish soap, or laundry soap. If it is coated steel and ended up rough, resist the temptation to wipe it with a rag. You will have a article covered in rag colored lint. You'll have to experiment here. You'll probably want to get your hand oils off, because it can etch into the steel with time. If it is completely disassembled just wash it like you would the dishes, and rinse it off. *Blot* off as much of the water as you can and stick it infront of a fan. Small parts can be cleaned with a tooth brush and Fantastic very easily. Never under estimate how large an item you can clean with a tooth brush :-) Anything loose can be vacuumed of course. Compressed air works great for power supplies and drives. I took my Vax to the car wash :-) Well only the the plastic panels from the BA213, actually. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Bill Bradford wrote: > > I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench > out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this > has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it. > > Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment? > Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of > alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E... > > (I know, first rule: "document where everything goes") > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 2 05:13:25 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Totaly OT In-Reply-To: <3B691AF3.13665.1ED04D46@localhost> References: <3B691AF3.13665.1ED04D46@localhost> Message-ID: <9217.210.138.200.5.996747205.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hans Can your shipping agents counter part in the US not take care of the necessary documents? Some years ago I went for a 4 week motorcycle holiday (with my own bike) on the west coast, and the shipping agent handled all the required docs. The time spend and the customes office was about 5 minutes. We had a short talk with the customs officer about what/why/how long and said 'have a nice time'. Insurance was covered by Statefarm BTW. Ed >> On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Hans Franke wrote: >> > Is there some Member in the Baltimore MD area with a) some >> > experiance about harbor customs, and b) some experiance about >> > car insurance ? > >> I haven't been back to MD since the TRS-80 days. > >> But, ... >> wouldn't MD categorize your vehicle as a MOTORCYCLE? > > I drive on my German licence plate - and therefore it's a car. > I just need an additional US incurance with minimum coverage, > the stuff required by law. THis saves a lot of hassles with > local shaerifs. > > Servus > Hans > > (And gone - for the trip I have setup a web mail accout: > Raffzahn@yahoo.de ) > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ From marko at engia.se Thu Aug 2 06:14:57 2001 From: marko at engia.se (Marko Krejic) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 Message-ID: <010601c11b44$5f51b180$d300a8c0@MARKO> Hi folks! I am quite new to this mailing-list, so it might be that my question has been asked before. Execuse me if so. I got one old (is there any new =) ) Epson HX-20 and i wonder if there is some manual or some other information about how to program it in assembler? Is there any hardware information so that i could know on which addresses the periphal is on and how to access it? Best regards Marko Krejic From rachael_ at gmx.net Thu Aug 2 04:31:07 2001 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer Message-ID: <500.614T396T6312620rachael_@gmx.net> on 01-Aug-01 15:27:10, Iggy Drougge wrote: >Isn't Regnecentralen still in business? Or am I thinking about another line >of Danish computers? I think they went bankrupt and some parts of it got restructured, its now a software only firm. You might be thinking of superMax machines ? They are still in business, atleast they seems to support those unix machines. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: Rachael_@gmx.net url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From bill at cs.scranton.edu Thu Aug 2 07:29:43 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Totaly OT In-Reply-To: <3B691AF3.13665.1ED04D46@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Servus > Hans > > (And gone - for the trip I have setup a web mail accout: > Raffzahn@yahoo.de ) > I saw PA on your itinerary. If your going to be going by Scranton/Wilkes-Barre (up I81) feel free to stop by for a visit (and if you stop by the house, a beer & a Jaegermeister.) Daytime I'm at the University of Scranton Computing Sciences Department. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 2 08:07:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722556E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >: Re: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/606595.asp?0nw=n18#hobby > > Hey. Very Nice, and well deserved I should add. > > The quiz asks "When was Windows first announced" > the missing punch-line is When was it delivered? Wasn't > this one of the most aggregious examples of vaporware, > where the product didn't ship for -Years-? In December 1983, I took a recent issue of some PC magazine into a Radio Shack, and showed them the Radio Shack ad with a picture of Windows 1.0 (or 0.75?) running on a Tandy 2000. I said this is what I want. They said we have the computer but we've never seen or heard of Windows. What's that? I do recall when I finally got a copy to play with, late '86 or early '87, but ISTR that Windows 2.0 shipped in '87. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 2 07:40:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722556B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > DQ wrote: > > [Memory lane, snipped] > > Thanks for that ;-) > > > I still get chills when I hear the blower on the 327 on Mad Max's > > car in the first movie... didn't that have an Edelbrock manifold? > > I remember thinking that it looked like it had a 6-71 on it, and > Edelbrock certainly makes (or at least made) manifolds for suck-through > applications of the 6-71. However I also remember the blower being > clutched, which made little sense -- unless it was a blow-through > application with some sort of bypass for when the blower was shut > down. > > Whatever. It had that nice 6-71 whine, which is what _really_ matters :-) Brrr..! :-) From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 2 00:08:02 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 inventory References: <008201c10177$690f9750$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <001301c11564$b07a9120$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <3B609C83.D9BEE13F@idirect.com> Message-ID: <000501c11b58$b7e9cf30$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Fine" To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 6:41 PM Subject: Re: PDP 11/34 inventory > >Mike Kenzie wrote: > > > Anyone in the Ottawa area interested in helping? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Which OS will you use? > > > I hope to have pictures soon. > > Did any software come with the 11/34? There is one disk labelled TSX,LEX, the rest are unlabeled except for AECL 2200 BPI-12 There are 2 other pack labelled RL01K-DC with TD2, and TD4 There is a few 8" floppies labeled PDP backup and there are drives in 2 of the RK05's labeled system backup The paper tapes are labelled: DZM91-D-PB DZKMA-C1-PB DZKAQ-F-PB DFKTH-A-PB DFKAC-A-PB DFKAB-C-PB DFKAA-B1-PB DCMFA-D-PB DZDLA-F-PB DZDLA-F1-PB I didn't notice a paper tape reader in the pile, but found a mention today that the DECwriter might have that option? Found out about a nice haul of MAC's tonight (color classic, quadras, 7200, lc, CI...) as well as a LISA, a Sun 3/60 and an Apollo. From lance at costanzo.net Thu Aug 2 08:54:02 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010802065402.02285100@costanzo.net> At 01:19 PM 8/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >> From what I understand, every conductor must be capable of carrying a >> current greater than the breaker that protects it. Otherwise, the cord >would >> be the first thing thing to fail in a overcurrent situation. This would >> present a very significant fire danger. > >In the context of building wiring, yes. Not in the context of appliance >wiring. 22GA zip cord, such as found on US lamps, isn't capable of >sustaining 20A@115V without heating -- and you can certainly plug a You have to look at it from the viewpoint of the load. For a receptacle, its wiring back to the box must be capable of handling the maximum load that can be plugged into it. For a lamp, or anything else plugged into a receptacle, the wiring must be capable of handling the device load. In the case of a lamp, 100W, 150W tops. You could get the right/wrong adapters and plug a table saw into the lamp socket, which would probably fry the zip cord if the saw could draw enough juice to start in the first place. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Aug 2 09:01:54 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Altair32 Update Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879C46@MAIL10> Hello, all: I've reached a major milestone in this project. The telnet console emulation code works, courtesy of my telnet guru Theo Pozzi. Right now, I'm using a small 8080 echo program (written by Theo) to read a character from telnet and echo it back out. Terminal output proves that it works. Whoo, hoo! Now, I'm going to work on getting Altair 4k BASIC running. I might have to do some tinkering to get the LOAD and SAVE functions working properly, but that should be a snap. Now the fun begins. I'll post the new code shortly. Rich From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 09:23:11 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) Message-ID: >Sure, but by 1976 the fastest production car being sold was a Lotus Europa >John Player Special with if my memory isn't too defective had 118 HP from a >1.6L engine. Zero to 60 MPH was a modest mid 6 second time, but I think it >was just enough to edge out Z-28, which had lots more power, but twice the weight. The Z-28 went out of production in the very early 70's and was not reintroduced until the 1978 model. So, there was no Z-28 in 1976. I'm not sure but, I'd assume the corvette was the fastest Detroit built car at that time. I had previously owned a 69 Z-28 and when I heard that Chevy was going to bring out a new one (78), I immediately ran to the dealership and ordered one. I paid the whopping sum of $6200 for it. It was a decent car but, the performance pales in comparision to the earlier ones. I don't recall the numbers but the '78 probably had < 200 HP. I just bought a new truck and It's got more HP than the '78 did. IIRC, the '69 was around 325 HP. SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Aug 2 09:36:45 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Length of Cables for ESDI Hard Disk Drives Message-ID: <3B69657D.177EA4A2@idirect.com> I have had a problem with some of my ESDI disk drives for a number of years which may have a very simple solution. When I use the drives in a BA123 box with an 11/73, the system functions correctly while I am using 7 quad boards or less. Whenever I add the extra boards, the READ operations on the Hitachi ESDI DK515-78 disk drives (Sigma RQD11-EC quad ESDI controller) take about twice as long. The WRITE operations are still just as fast. I have been looking at the problem again recently and while it has not yet been resolved, I now begin to suspect that the cables between the RQD11-EC controller and the drives may be too long. Just a guess is that the total length of the 34-pin cable is six feet (with the first portion to the first header being four feet and three more pieces of eight inches making a total of six feet to the last header) and the 20-pin cables (there are four with three currently in use) are about four feet each. In addition, the three ESDI drives currently in use run off their own PC power supply (in fact it is the actual power supply that came with the drives within a large raid set-up to be used with a VAX). I also salvaged the fans inside the box and each drive has its own fan. Normally, I only turn on one ESDI drive when the other ESDI drives are not being used for backup purposes. In addition, I have installed a heavy ground cable between the PC power supply and the BA123 box. In case anyone asks, the last drive on the 34-pin cable is correctly terminated and the other drives are not terminated. Since everything runs VERY well in the BA123 with the DK515-78 drives while I use seven or less quad boards, I have not tried to investigate much until recently since the extra boards are used so rarely it has not been a problem 99% of the time. And the fact that everything works so well has not led me to suspect the length of the 34-pin/20-pin cables. Does anyone have any suggested maximum cable lengths? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Aug 2 10:09:53 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net>; from fernande@internet1.net on Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:08:19AM -0400 References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:08:19AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > On boards that don't have to many nooks and crannies stick them in the > dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to > corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water > off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an > air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow > them off. Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic, at least while power was applied. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From headcase at eclipse.co.uk Thu Aug 2 10:28:41 2001 From: headcase at eclipse.co.uk (Jim Bunting) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Computer Disposal Message-ID: <006301c11b67$d3b94380$6a9968d4@ellieclements> Just to advise that I am at last starting to dispose of my computers on eBay. See:- http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261199368 The rest will follow shortly Jim Bunting From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 2 11:36:00 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225564@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3B698170.D6BB9242@internet1.net> I don't recall it. What is it and when did it come out? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Anyone here old enough to remember this: > > Well, I stepped off the pavement into my cut-down-short... > Cat in the next lane, says, "Man, you look like a real sport." > He said "when that light turns green, I'm gonna dig out ahead of you." > Well, I answered him back, like about the, only way I could... <- > wrong lyric > > .......vvvvvVVVVVVRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!! > > I got three carburetors.... > ...twin pipes... > I got three carburetors.... > ...milled heads... > I got three carburetors and no-body's passin' me... > > > > So, I pulled up to the stoplight, just my baby and me. > Same cat pulled upside, he was GREEN with N-V. > He said "man, what you got under that crazy, fat hood" > Well, I answered him back, like about the, only way I could... > > .......vvvvvVVVVVVRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!! > > ... > > Well, I wheeled off of the highway, and down under the underpass, > when all of a sudden, I was like Ooo, out of gas! > > dah-dah-dah-dah-dom-dom > dom-dom > > "Well, man, what happened?" dom-dom > "I don't know, I can't dig this scene, something's gotta give" > dom-dom > "Well, fella, I dig on your predicment. You got > > ...three carburetors.... > ...twin pipes... > I got three carburetors.... > ...milled heads... > I got three carburetors and no-body's passin' me... > > > Gas mileage? What's that? Actually it's not too bad. I get > > about 15-16 MPG on the highway. But you should see what the gas gauge does > > when I put my foot to it and the second and third of carbs kick in! > > I still get chills when I hear the blower on the 327 on Mad Max's > car in the first movie... didn't that have an Edelbrock manifold? > > -dq > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 2 11:57:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Length of Cables for ESDI Hard Disk Drives References: <3B69657D.177EA4A2@idirect.com> Message-ID: <002501c11b74$3d563260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You shouldn't be having a cable length problem with the ESDI drives. The fast signals on the data cables (1 per drive) are driven with differential drivers capable of considerable length at that bandwidth. In fact, the number 40 feet, sticks in my recollection. The signals on the 34-conductor cable aren't particularly fast, but aren't driven, typically, with drivers capable of what the diff drivers can do. I doubt you use that much cable, that you'd see the impact of cable length. If you really think it's the cable, I'd recommend switching to a twisted pair ribbon from the typical flat ribbon. It won't help much, and what you might try is simply using a different cable. They do fail sometimes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Fine" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11 To: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:36 AM Subject: Length of Cables for ESDI Hard Disk Drives > I have had a problem with some of my ESDI disk drives for a number of years > which may have a very simple solution. > > When I use the drives in a BA123 box with an 11/73, the system functions correctly > while I am using 7 quad boards or less. Whenever I add the extra boards, the READ > operations on the Hitachi ESDI DK515-78 disk drives (Sigma RQD11-EC quad ESDI > controller) take about twice as long. The WRITE operations are still just as fast. > > I have been looking at the problem again recently and while it has not yet been resolved, > I now begin to suspect that the cables between the RQD11-EC controller and the drives > may be too long. Just a guess is that the total length of the 34-pin cable is six feet (with > the first portion to the first header being four feet and three more pieces of eight inches > making a total of six feet to the last header) and the 20-pin cables (there are four with > three currently in use) are about four feet each. In addition, the three ESDI drives currently > in use run off their own PC power supply (in fact it is the actual power supply that came > with the drives within a large raid set-up to be used with a VAX). I also salvaged the fans > inside the box and each drive has its own fan. Normally, I only turn on one ESDI drive > when the other ESDI drives are not being used for backup purposes. In addition, I > have installed a heavy ground cable between the PC power supply and the BA123 box. > In case anyone asks, the last drive on the 34-pin cable is correctly terminated and > the other drives are not terminated. > > Since everything runs VERY well in the BA123 with the DK515-78 drives while I > use seven or less quad boards, I have not tried to investigate much until recently since > the extra boards are used so rarely it has not been a problem 99% of the time. > > And the fact that everything works so well has not led me to suspect the length of the > 34-pin/20-pin cables. Does anyone have any suggested maximum cable lengths? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 2 12:19:23 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: Re: cleaning qbus enclosures (Bill Bradford) References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <15209.35739.895131.807890@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 2, Bill Bradford wrote: > > On boards that don't have to many nooks and crannies stick them in the > > dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to > > corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water > > off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an > > air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow > > them off. > > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? I've never been able to bring myself to do that myself, but I know of several people who swear by that method. One issue with that much water is stickers...most sticker solvents won't last through that sort of beating. > I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic, > at least while power was applied. 8-) On the table on the other side of this room I have a Sun monitor that I got from a surplus house for free. It had been sitting outside fully exposed to the weather for upwards of six months. I've had it for nearly five years; it's still going strong! Contrary to popular belief, water itself is a near-perfect insulator. It's the crap dissolved in, and the particulate matter carried by, said water that causes problems with electronics. If you can find Freon TF, fill a dish pan with an inch or so of it and dunk the boards. It will get the dust out of those hard-to-reach places. And it's also great with vodka. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 2 12:44:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: PCI to NUBUS adaptation In-Reply-To: <3B69657D.177EA4A2@idirect.com> Message-ID: <01Aug2.135134edt.119090@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> I came across an interesting item today...an external expansion box that contains 4 NUBUS slots, with their own PSU, with a heavy ribbon cable coming off of it. According to the manual, it also had a PCI card that plugged into the early PowerMac's, such as the 8500, and allowed them to use NUBUS cards. Unfortunately, the PCI adapter is missing but it does still have one of the National Instruments GPIB cards installed. The box was made by Second Wave. Jeff -- From zaft at azstarnet.com Thu Aug 2 13:06:01 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: BA23 expansion chassis for free, Tucson AZ Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010802110258.00b5ce58@mail.azstarnet.com> I have a DEC BA23 expansion chassis available to anyone who wants it. It has an 8-slot QBus backplane and power supply. I believe it to be working. To use it you'd need whatever cards were used to hook it to another backplane since I don't have those. It's one of the ones that doesn't have its own power switch, it powers up when you power up the main unit I believe. Oh, and it was rack-mounted. If anyone wants it I'll even deliver it anywhere in AZ (if you're patient). If you are really patient I could take it to southern CA next time I go that way. Gordon Zaft From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 2 13:14:19 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Computer Disposal In-Reply-To: <006301c11b67$d3b94380$6a9968d4@ellieclements> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010802191419.009e0978@192.168.1.2> At 04:28 pm 02/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Just to advise that I am at last starting to dispose of my computers on >eBay. > >See:- http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261199368 > >The rest will follow shortly > >Jim Bunting > Jim, You don't happen to have any old Commodore IEEE-488 disk drives do you? Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu Aug 2 13:19:27 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? > > I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic, > at least while power was applied. 8-) My favorite computer cleaning story is one from a fellow who worked at Fermi National Accelerator Lab, as well as on the doomed Texas SSC. He is quite a character... He told me that in the early days of Fermi Lab, one cost-cutting measure was to NOT build floors in the big shed-like buildings for some of the detector equipment. Since everything was held up on big gantries and racks, paying for floors didn't seem so important. Well, then it rained. A Lot. So my friend shows up to work one morning only to find a LOT of rack-mounted computer/test/electronic equipment covered in MUD. His solution? He took each board "out back", hosed each one off with a garden hose, then dipped each one into a tub of pure alcohol (to get off mineral deposits left from the water), then set up a clothesline and clothespinned each board to the line to finish drying. The Boss came out and almost had a heart attack, but they hooked everything back up and it worked out great. In the same group, this fellow had an intern one summer who he told to dismantle an air deionizer and rebuild it, as it was struggling at the time. So the intern went off an took care of it. A few days later all manner of rubber and plastic parts, fittings, etc, started getting brittle and falling apart, like something out of "The Andromeda Strain". They hunted all over to figure out what was going on, and eventually disovered that the intern had reassembled the deionizer as an ionizer, and the thing was pumping out ozone. "doh" - Dan Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 2 13:41:34 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B699EDE.5024B687@internet1.net> Bill, Yes, you read correctly..... circuit boards into the dishwasher :-) I have heard from various people that many times manufactures will clean them this way in production. Use your head of course, if something really looks like it shouldn't get wet, like something really old that has some cardboard bits, or whatever, then dont' do it. If you have a board that all the chips are in sockets, then I might hestitate as well unless you have an air compressor. Basically you don't want the water to stand on it for any length of time. I't ok to get them wet if you are able to dry them quickly. It's a judgement call really. I've cleaned PC motherboards this way, but I might not clean old PDP or vax stuff cpu boards that are rare. I haven't had the need yet. If they aren't that bad, start out with compressed air, or the vaccum. Maybe it would be better to leave them slightly dirty? Oh, I don't hink I have the guts to do the PS in the dishwasher :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Bill Bradford wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:08:19AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > On boards that don't have to many nooks and crannies stick them in the > > dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to > > corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water > > off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an > > air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow > > them off. > > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? > > I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic, > at least while power was applied. 8-) > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 13:43:05 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures Message-ID: > > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? > > I've never been able to bring myself to do that myself, but I know >of several people who swear by that method. > I usually dip the boards in a mild solution of "Simple Green", wash with a soft paint brush, then rinse with warm water. Just stand 'em on edge to drain or blow-dry with a hair dryer. They come out looking like new and seem to work just fine. I found a TRS MODEL 16 that had been in a chicken coop for 5 or 6 years. Let me tell ya, that sucker was nasty. Sprayed it down with the solution, rinsed with a garden hose, plugged it in. Works just fine and it has a clean "Citrus" smell to it. NOTE: I did have to relube the moving parts in the floppies but, that's all. SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Aug 2 13:44:28 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <15209.35739.895131.807890@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:19:23PM -0400 References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> <15209.35739.895131.807890@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010802134428.B19901@mrbill.net> On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:19:23PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > And it's also great with vodka. Water, or Freon? 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From gessler at ucla.edu Thu Aug 2 13:51:31 2001 From: gessler at ucla.edu (Nick Gessler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: ??? Spare mechanical parts for IMSAI 8080 ??? Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010802114952.02b46270@pop.bol.ucla.edu> I just acquired the shell of an IMSAI 8080 and am looking for: Red and Blue switch toggles. Front bezel. Aluminum cover. Can anyone suggest any sources? Thanks, Nick From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 2 13:49:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225576@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I don't recall it. What is it and when did it come out? It's "Three carburetors", and I'm clueless as to who it's done by... however, the flip side of the single (45rpm) was "Smoke! Smoke! Smoke that Cigarette": Well, I'm a cat with a heart of gold, With the ways of a lover, I've been told, So laid back I couldn't even hurt a flee. But if me and certain character met, The that invented the cigarette I'd chew that man out to the third degree It's not like I don't dig that scene myself Like, I keep a carton on the shelf I smoke them Filter Kings, and I ain't dead yet. dah-dah-dah-dah-dha-dah-dah-dah (forgotten lyrics) dah-dah-dah-dah-dha-dah-dah-dah (forgotten lyrics) I just gotta have another cigarette! Chorus: Smoke! Smoke! Smoke That cigarette! Smoke! Smoke! Smoke until you smoke yourself to death! dah-dah-dah-dah-dha-dah-dah-dah (different forgotten lyrics) dah-dah-dah-dah-dha-dah-dah-dah (different forgotten lyrics) I said now Daddy Daddy smoke that cigarette! -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 2 14:22:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? > I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic, > at least while power was applied. 8-) Always power down while the machine is in the dishwasher. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 2 14:26:51 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: Bill Bradford "Re: cleaning qbus enclosures" (Aug 2, 10:09) References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <10108022026.ZM8088@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 2, 10:09, Bill Bradford wrote: > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? That's a common method of cleaning boards. I've done it many times. How do you think they're cleaned commercially, when they're made? The only thing to watch for are paper labels (part numbers or QC stickers) stuck on the chips or PCB. > I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic, > at least while power was applied. 8-) So long as you remove all the water (and anything dissolved in it) before applying power, what's the problem? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erice at CAE.COM Thu Aug 2 14:26:51 2001 From: erice at CAE.COM (Eric Everton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA question Message-ID: <8A6A2A139700D5118EB6009027B0FF3A01D758FF@caemsx02.cae.ca> Does anyone have any timing info for the DRV11-WA / DR11-W cards? I am working on a Microvax II to send and collect data from a serial link used in the CF-18 aircraft (The box is real, but it is sitting in the lab!). I am modifying the XADRIVER provided by DEC to customize to my needs. I am having a few problems however... The ATTN bit does not seem to latch in the CSR when I pulse the ATTN line. Further, if I pulse it withing a few microseconds of a transfer and the transfer was < 3 words long, I miss the interrupt. (The IE bit is always set) Further, if send several QIO calls via my application program, it seems that there is an awfully large gap between the transfers (250 us to 2 ms) , yet my system is basically sitting idle. I can't figure out if it's the OS holding up the IRPs or if there is a problem elsewhere... Help! Eric Everton Avionics Simulation Specialist Dept. 49 Eric.Everton@cae.com (450) 476-4484 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 2 14:29:37 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> References: <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net>; from fernande@internet1.net on Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:08:19AM -0400 <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> Message-ID: >Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or >do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? IT works, many engineer types have told me that dishwashers are pretty common in small circuit board production to remove flux etc. The key is to just use water, and to immediately dry the stuff off and not to apply juice until fully dry. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 2 14:17:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:54 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I don't recall the numbers but the '78 probably had < 200 HP. I just bought >a new truck and It's got more HP than the '78 did. IIRC, the '69 was around >325 HP. Keep in mind HP ratings changed drastically during the 70's. The early testing was to carefully select an engine and make a flywheel test with everything optimized, ie no stock manifolds and no assessories like a alternator or even a belt in the front. Basically anything they wanted could be used as the HP, and nobody on the street would come close. Modern cars get rated on a production line average of the drive wheel performance on a dynometer. This had the odd result of making for example the 1986 mustang with something like 200 HP from the 302 the fastest production Mustang to date in stock trim. Now if you update one of the old cars like the BOSS Mustang with modern tires the situation changes a lot. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 2 14:36:19 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <15209.35739.895131.807890@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200108021936.VAA03884@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2 Aug, Dave McGuire wrote: > On the table on the other side of this room I have a Sun monitor > that I got from a surplus house for free. It had been sitting outside > fully exposed to the weather for upwards of six months. I've had it > for nearly five years; it's still going strong! Once I found a Sun 3/160 CPU card at the scrap yard. It was out in the rain for -I don't know how long- and the iron parts like screws had already collected some rust. I took the board home, washed it in the shower, dried it, supplemented the missing chips (CPU, FPU, ...), pluged it in and it did work as new. The same for a 3c509 ISA NIC that was covered with mud. This card is the secondary NIC in my main server for years now. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Aug 2 14:47:10 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: ??? Spare mechanical parts for IMSAI 8080 ??? Message-ID: <21.f1389c0.289b083e@aol.com> In a message dated 8/2/01 12:02:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gessler@ucla.edu writes: > I just acquired the shell of an IMSAI 8080 and am looking for: > Red and Blue switch toggles. > Jim Willing has the Red and Blue toggles. You can contact him through his web site. Jim's Computer Garage (museum) Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010802/8104912a/attachment.html From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 2 14:46:52 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: ??? Spare mechanical parts for IMSAI 8080 ??? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010802114952.02b46270@pop.bol.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <200108021946.OAA21747@caesar.cs.umn.edu> imsai.net -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > I just acquired the shell of an IMSAI 8080 and am looking for: > Red and Blue switch toggles. > Front bezel. > Aluminum cover. > Can anyone suggest any sources? > Thanks, > Nick > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 2 15:21:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >This had the odd result of making for example the 1986 mustang with >something like 200 HP from the 302 the fastest production Mustang to date >in stock trim. Now if you update one of the old cars like the BOSS Mustang >with modern tires the situation changes a lot. I would think so...I certainly can't see an '86 Mustang being a better performer than say the GT-350 or GT-500 series machines. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Aug 2 15:31:39 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:22:13PM -0700 References: <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010802153139.J19901@mrbill.net> On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:22:13PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Always power down while the machine is in the dishwasher. Of course.. I just always thought water was bad for anything electronic, regardless of whether power was applied or not.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From kentborg at borg.org Thu Aug 2 15:48:33 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Message-ID: <20010802164833.H17258@borg.org> Anyone know where I might find an ASR-33 Teletype (good condition, reasonable price, etc.) in the Boston area? -kb, the Kent who started out on an ASR-33. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Aug 2 15:51:01 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <010601c11b44$5f51b180$d300a8c0@MARKO> Message-ID: I also inherited one last week... More info would be cool! George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Marko Krejic wrote: > Hi folks! > > I am quite new to this mailing-list, so it might be that my question has > been asked before. Execuse me if so. > > I got one old (is there any new =) ) Epson HX-20 and i wonder if there is > some manual or some other information about how to program it in assembler? > Is there any hardware information so that i could know on which addresses > the periphal is on and how to access it? > > Best regards > > Marko Krejic > > From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 2 16:09:49 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802100953.Z19901@mrbill.net> <20010802153139.J19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <009901c11b97$775d4f20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Of course.. I just always thought water was bad for anything electronic, > regardless of whether power was applied or not.. Make sure any big Caps are discharged (actually, I'd avoid PSU's as well), Otherwise, the materials used are all impermeable to water. Metal rust takes a few days in water to really begin and modern plastics are waterproof, etc. I wash in a tub of water to avoid the high temperature steam. As for drying, I do a sort of toweling off, usually with paper towels, then air dry for safety, 1~2 days. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 16:21:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <010601c11b44$5f51b180$d300a8c0@MARKO> from "Marko Krejic" at Aug 2, 1 01:14:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1123 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010802/061ed48c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:24:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Aug 2, 1 00:52:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1384 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010802/161a739c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 16:24:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010802065402.02285100@costanzo.net> from "Lance Costanzo" at Aug 2, 1 06:54:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010802/0d21967c/attachment.ksh From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 16:52:19 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: investments. In-Reply-To: <200108020239.VAA38780@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:07:12 +0200 > From: "Hans Franke" > Subject: Re: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam > > investment (*2). Now there come in the few systems where a price > may be obtained, reasonable higher than average: e.g. Chicklet > PET, Altair, SOL, IMSAI, etc. And these are the systems where > investment outside of the hobby scene may take place. As a In that case I'll consider myself extremely lucky that someone has donated a chiclet PET 2001-8 to the museum with software, schematics and manuals and all it hopefully needs is a few RAM chips swapping. I've also been offered 2 other 2001-8's, one in supposedly mint condition and another in not as good condition as the donated one, and both were round the ukp100 mark. Keep up the collecting, adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum 0:OK, 0:1 From spedraja at ono.com Thu Aug 2 14:55:52 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 Message-ID: <001401c11b8d$22df9020$0301a8c0@marga> Hello. I have one question to somebody that managed one DILOG DQ-614 in sometime. I've read the instructions of the DQ696 and the proceddings to access the ROM menu of this board appears to be applicable to the DQ614; that is, when I type: @7775000G ... in the ODT prompt of one PDP-11/23 PLUS, appears inmediately the '*' prompt. But, when I type 'FT', the prompt simply appears again. No menu. Nothing. If you send a break to the system, it makes appear again the @ prompt of the ODT. My interest about this is in access this phantom menu to be capable of partitioning and formating one RD52 Hard Disk that is connected to the board. Somebody know something about this matter ? Thanks Sergio From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 2 17:07:16 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > I also inherited one last week... More info would be cool! > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX Epson has some information on their ftp site - ftp.epson.com/hxpxqx/ - that may be useful. - don > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Marko Krejic wrote: > > > Hi folks! > > > > I am quite new to this mailing-list, so it might be that my question has > > been asked before. Execuse me if so. > > > > I got one old (is there any new =) ) Epson HX-20 and i wonder if there is > > some manual or some other information about how to program it in assembler? > > Is there any hardware information so that i could know on which addresses > > the periphal is on and how to access it? > > > > Best regards > > > > Marko Krejic > > > > > > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Aug 2 17:10:13 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200108022210.SAA16843@world.std.com> >I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything >electronic, at least while power was applied. 8-) Then don't put them in the dishwasher while they are plugged in... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 2 17:10:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <20010802153139.J19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Nope. As long as any on-board capacitors are discharged, which is fairly easy to do. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:22:13PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Always power down while the machine is in the dishwasher. > > Of course.. I just always thought water was bad for anything electronic, > regardless of whether power was applied or not.. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 2 17:19:08 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, and what happens if there's a fault so the device draws, say, 10A > (OK, not likely with a lamp, but possible with other things. Easily > possible). The fuse will not blow at 10A (it's rated at 15A), but zip > cord is going to get _very_ hot. What happens? The house burns down. > That's _exactly_ the problem. If somebody tried that here (assuming the > fuse in the plug was the correct one -- 3A) ,the only result would be a > blown fuse. And not a cable on fire. That might mean that you have far fewer of that sort of fires. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 2 17:24:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, and what happens if there's a fault so the device draws, say, 10A > (OK, not likely with a lamp, but possible with other things. Easily > possible). The fuse will not blow at 10A (it's rated at 15A), but zip > cord is going to get _very_ hot. You're assuming that the lamp is the only thing plugged into the circuit. > > You could get the right/wrong adapters and plug a table saw into > > You mean an adapter that fits in place of the bulb, yes? I believe that's to what he was alluding. > > the lamp socket, which would probably fry the zip cord if the saw > > could draw enough juice to start in the first place. > > That's _exactly_ the problem. If somebody tried that here (assuming the > fuse in the plug was the correct one -- 3A) ,the only result would be a > blown fuse. And not a cable on fire. This scenario is VERY against regulation. Peace... Sridhar > -tony > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Aug 2 17:29:07 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) Message-ID: <200108022229.f72MT7a78168@aurora.regenstrief.org> Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) cheers, -Gunther From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 2 17:32:04 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <200108022210.SAA16843@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything > >electronic, at least while power was applied. 8-) On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Megan wrote: > Then don't put them in the dishwasher while they are plugged in... :-) I just checked, and with MY dishwasher (Maytag), I can not close the door and run it when there is a power cord hanging out. Therefore, I would be unable to run anything but a [battery powered] laptop inside the dishwasher while it is running. It is also a little cramped in there, so I'd have to wash the monitor separately, and might even need to disassemble larger computers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 2 17:32:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108022229.f72MT7a78168@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: What I would like to see would be an XMI video card, so someone (ahem) could use DECsystem 5800-series, VAX 6000-series, and VAX/DEC 7000-series as workstations. That would be truly a sight to behold. Plus XMI is fast. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) > > cheers, > -Gunther > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Aug 2 17:44:57 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> Sridhar wrote: > What I would like to see would be an XMI video card, so someone (ahem) > could use DECsystem 5800-series, VAX 6000-series, and VAX/DEC 7000-series > as workstations. That would be truly a sight to behold. Plus XMI is > fast. well, it may be fast, but I consider a workstation that measures less than 5x7x2.5 feet, weighs less than 3/4 ton, and consumes less than 7 kW, and whose original list price is less than 500 k$ an impractical thing. After all, microprocessors have no place on the market and who would ever want a computer in their home? :-) cheers, -Gunther PS: has anyone ever manufactured an XMI video interface? > > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) > > > > cheers, > > -Gunther > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 2 17:57:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures Message-ID: <005b01c11ba6$c22a7cd0$79769a8d@ajp166> From: John Allain >Make sure any big Caps are discharged (actually, I'd avoid PSU's as >well), Otherwise, the materials used are all impermeable to water. at least HV SMPS! THose have enough high volts on the high side caps that discharge first is the rule. >Metal rust takes a few days in water to really begin and modern plastics >are waterproof, etc. Water does not cause rust for the most part, oxygen does! However if the water has any impurities or even soaps in it there is a risk of electrolisys (so, wash and dry quickly). >I wash in a tub of water to avoid the high temperature steam. >As for drying, I do a sort of toweling off, usually with paper towels, then >air dry for safety, 1~2 days. I put them in the dishwasher on the power saving setting (no reheater). I've done boards like MVII cpu, Qbus RAM, PDP-8f front pannel and most of the boards (not the core board, loose cores would be ripped off) I deemed too dircty for dusting. Success is assured as commercial cleaners for electronics assembly do that. Over the years (20+) Ive done this and it's a great way to degrunge the nastiest (esp cigarett smoke). It's a most do for any electronics that has had salt exposure (Salt eats metals!) as it tend to remain even after dried does become hydroscopic leading to long term problems. Key things: Not too hot. How hot it too hot? 200f (100c) or cooler is safe. most Semiconductors (transistors, diodes, ICs) will safely stand 150c (at the junction) so that is the way to hot point. once cleaned rinse well if any soaps were used. Isopropanal can be used to dry (dewater) but it must be 95% or better. Rubbing Alchohol is usually either 70% or 91% with the rest being... water! Dry as soon as possible and throughly. A 190F (87) oven works well or blow dry. If there are any moving parts, lubricate as required with the correct oil (or grease). Paper, temperature sensitive plastics and any suspect items like closed but not sealed items (relays, some switches) may need closer attention to insure they dont get wet. Oh yes, a note on dry brushes or vacuums... remember you may be generating static and even TTL can suffer long term damage from low level ESD. Allison From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 2 17:49:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Well, how about a VAX9000? I think a VAXcluster of about 20 VAX 7000-860s would make a pretty nice workstation. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Sridhar wrote: > > > What I would like to see would be an XMI video card, so someone (ahem) > > could use DECsystem 5800-series, VAX 6000-series, and VAX/DEC 7000-series > > as workstations. That would be truly a sight to behold. Plus XMI is > > fast. > > well, it may be fast, but I consider a workstation that > measures less than 5x7x2.5 feet, weighs less than 3/4 ton, > and consumes less than 7 kW, and whose original list > price is less than 500 k$ an impractical thing. After all, > microprocessors have no place on the market and who would > ever want a computer in their home? :-) > > cheers, > -Gunther > > PS: has anyone ever manufactured an XMI video interface? > > > > > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > > > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > > > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > > > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > > > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > > > > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > > > > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > > > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > > > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > > > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > > > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > > > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > > > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) > > > > > > cheers, > > > -Gunther > > > > > > > > > From pechter at bg-tc-ppp47.monmouth.com Thu Aug 2 18:09:46 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp47.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at "Aug 2, 2001 03:32:04 pm" Message-ID: <200108022309.f72N9kZ92489@bg-tc-ppp47.monmouth.com> > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > I just checked, and with MY dishwasher (Maytag), I can not close the door > and run it when there is a power cord hanging out. > > Therefore, I would be unable to run anything but a [battery powered] > laptop inside the dishwasher while it is running. One field service tip... Slam the door harder. If it doesn't seal well catch water with bucket. If it cuts off power coard hardwire to electrical mains. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From steve at discus.lincoln.ac.nz Thu Aug 2 18:19:50 2001 From: steve at discus.lincoln.ac.nz (Stephen Bell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108022229.f72MT7a78168@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Hi guys, Just got some hardware up & running last week have been meaning to post the info.. I'm running it on a PDP-11/44 but can't see any reason it wouldn't work in a vax. The boards have VT30H printed on them and connect to a fairly std looking RGB monitor. Each monitor needs a 2 board set I think these things were reasonably common in industrial control systems. I'm still not sure how to make use of it properly yet, the RSX driver is loaded & i've got an application that draws a picture on the screen. Looks like 16 colours, and reasonable resolution. The machine it came in had 2 card sets for more than one monitor in the card cage. 4 cables for red-green-blue-sync It looks like you can connect a terminal device (software) to the display driver and use it as a terminal in text mode as well but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. (under RSX) I have enough bits & pieces to build up 2 systems so getting the second machine up & running with unix is the next project. Cheers, Steve On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) > > cheers, > -Gunther > > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 2 18:18:24 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: [classic-cmp] Sharp MZ-80K Basic tape Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010803001824.009cabe0@192.168.1.2> Hi, Does anyone have BASIC SP-5025 for the Sharp MZ-80K? If so, would you be willing to make a duplicate for me, or (if you've no longer got the machine) part with the original? I'd also be interested in any other hardware/software/manuals for this computer. Thanks in advance! Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 18:18:17 2001 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer Message-ID: "Oldest", myfriend can be interpreted many different ways. Oldest by acquizition: Commodore 64C Oldest chronoligically: Otrona Attache _____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy Model 200, PDD, CCR-82. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Titan graphics & MS-DOS board, Comrex HDD. "Scout": Otrona Attache. ____________________________________________________________ >From: Lucas J Cashdollar >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Whats you oldest computer >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:36:40 -0400 (EDT) > >Hello All, > > I was just curious to know what was the oldest computer any of you >own. The oldest one I actually own is an apple II+ (1978?) and the oldest >one I am restoring is a HP 2114B circa 1969. > >Luke > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 18:05:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Circuit protection (was: RE: Latest addition : PDP 11/70) In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 2, 1 06:24:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1870 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010803/d6db7782/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 18:24:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108022229.f72MT7a78168@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Aug 2, 1 05:29:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010803/364a0f82/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 18:27:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 2, 1 03:32:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010803/7276fa3c/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 2 18:46:15 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: from "Gunther Schadow" at Aug 02, 2001 05:29:07 PM Message-ID: <200108022346.f72NkFU01914@shell1.aracnet.com> > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) Read up on the VS100. It hooks up the the VAX 11/78x via a fiberoptic cable. IIRC, this was the original development platform for X11. Warning, there seems to be very little info available on the VS100. Zane From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 2 18:48:21 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <3B699EDE.5024B687@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010802184259.R25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Use your head of course, if something really looks like it shouldn't > get wet, like something really old that has some cardboard bits, or > whatever, then dont' do it. If you have a board that all the chips > are in sockets, then I might hestitate as well unless you have an air > compressor. Would a hair dryer work, or would I need some heavy duty source of high-velocity air? Also, would one need to pull all the chips, clean them separately, and then reseat them once the board was dry? What about boards with core on them? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 2 18:56:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: Re: cleaning qbus enclosures (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <3B699EDE.5024B687@internet1.net> <20010802184259.R25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15209.59571.945247.127021@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 2, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Would a hair dryer work, or would I need some heavy duty source of > high-velocity air? Also, would one need to pull all the chips, clean them > separately, and then reseat them once the board was dry? > > What about boards with core on them? I wouldn't get core wet...nor would I hit it with an air compressor. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From timc at lexicon.net Thu Aug 2 18:45:25 2001 From: timc at lexicon.net (Tim Crawley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) References: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <001101c11bad$34dbd980$8b88a0ca@omega> I don't know if I could afford to run an 11/785 as a workstation. The power bill would be HUGE. As it is, to power up my 11/785 I have to run extention cords to 3 seperate power circuits in the house (no, I don't have 3 phase power connected at home). > Sridhar wrote: > > > What I would like to see would be an XMI video card, so someone (ahem) > > could use DECsystem 5800-series, VAX 6000-series, and VAX/DEC 7000-series > > as workstations. That would be truly a sight to behold. Plus XMI is > > fast. > > well, it may be fast, but I consider a workstation that > measures less than 5x7x2.5 feet, weighs less than 3/4 ton, > and consumes less than 7 kW, and whose original list > price is less than 500 k$ an impractical thing. After all, > microprocessors have no place on the market and who would > ever want a computer in their home? :-) > > cheers, > -Gunther > > PS: has anyone ever manufactured an XMI video interface? > > > > > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > > > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > > > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > > > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > > > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > > > > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > > > > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > > > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > > > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > > > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > > > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > > > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > > > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) > > > > > > cheers, > > > -Gunther > > > > > > > > > From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 2 19:09:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108022229.f72MT7a78168@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010802185900.K25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Included was a 3, 4, 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video > interface. Has anybody ever seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter > sets? I have one, Gunther. It came with a load of other stuff I picked up this summer. It was made by Jupiter, and and consists of a ~4U rackmount box, a keyboard, and maybe some UNIBUS boards. I haven't had any time to investigate it, so I don't really know much about it at all. I do know that the keyboard looks cool, with a joystick on either side of the keys. >From what I was told, all it needs is a suitable monitor. Do you want it? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 2 19:10:01 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Data General Nova memory boards In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:03:32 -0700 . Message-ID: In message , "Rob Lion" wr ites: >In the daily dumpster rounds today, I ran across a pair of large boards, >about 15" square, each labeled "DGC Nova2 16K memory, (c)1973 by Data >General Corp". They're designed to plug into a backplane with a pair of >cardedge connectors, 100 pins each. (This is, I'm sure, a well-known bus, >but not well-known to me. :-) ) > >Anyway, rambling aside, I don't really have any use for these boards. They >both have pricetags on them saying $9.95, but I have no idea from when or >where. So if anyone wants them for the price of shipping or wants to pick >them up from Pasadena, CA, just let me know; I'll keep them around for a few >weeks at least. Otherwise, maybe I'll (non-destructively) hang them on the >wall. Rob, If you don't get any other offers, I'd like to take them off your hands. As it turns out I have a Nova 2. I can't say in all honesty however, that they'd be put to good use anytime soon. That machine has been sitting in the garage unpowered for quite a while now. Brian L. Stuart From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 2 19:22:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: CRAY EL-98 In-Reply-To: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Here's a rather unusual auction on eBay...a CRAY EL-98, supposedly functional, with OS backup tapes, and which supposedly came from Apple. If for nothing else, it's interesting for the pictures the seller has posted. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 2 19:59:57 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: CRAY EL-98 In-Reply-To: References: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Ooooops...forgot the URL! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261319145 > Here's a rather unusual auction on eBay...a CRAY EL-98, >supposedly functional, with OS backup tapes, and which supposedly >came from Apple. If for nothing else, it's interesting for the >pictures the seller has posted. > > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 20:10:08 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 In-Reply-To: <001401c11b8d$22df9020$0301a8c0@marga> Message-ID: <20010803011008.68381.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- SP wrote: > Hello. I have one question to somebody that managed > one DILOG DQ-614 in sometime. I've read the instructions > of the DQ696 and the proceddings to access the ROM > menu of this board appears to be applicable to the DQ614; > that is, when I type: > > @7775000G > > ... in the ODT prompt of one PDP-11/23 PLUS, appears > inmediately the '*' prompt. > > But, when I type 'FT', the prompt simply appears again. > No menu. Nothing. If you send a break to the system, > it makes appear again the @ prompt of the ODT. > > My interest about this is in access this phantom menu to > be capable of partitioning and formating one RD52 Hard Disk > that is connected to the board. I would love to hear more about this! I have had a DQ-614 for over 10 years and have never been able to use it. Recently, someone has posted the jumper settings on a web page, but I have not managed to get the formatting software from anywhere. I had no idea there might be a hidden formatting menu. More! More! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 2 19:16:43 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist Message-ID: Here's the web edition of an article on VCF East in The Economist: http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=719262 I don't know if the article is any longer in the print edition. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 2 11:07:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722556E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Aug2.215655edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/2/01 9:07 AM, Douglas Quebbeman at dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com wrote: > In December 1983, I took a recent issue of some PC magazine > into a Radio Shack, and showed them the Radio Shack ad with > a picture of Windows 1.0 (or 0.75?) running on a Tandy 2000. > I said this is what I want. They said we have the computer > but we've never seen or heard of Windows. What's that? Windows 1 required a special driver disk, which had drivers for both the digital mouse and the Model 2000's hires graphics adapter, to run on the Model 2000. It is the only version of Windows that will run on the machine. If anyone happens to have that driver disk though, which carried Tandy part# 7002611, I'd be interested in obtaining a copy. To the best of my knowledge the driver disk was provided seperately. Jeff From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Aug 2 21:33:14 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) References: <20010802185900.K25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B6A0D6A.7D1B425B@aurora.regenstrief.org> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > > Included was a 3, 4, 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video > > interface. Has anybody ever seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter > > sets? > > I have one, Gunther. It came with a load of other stuff I picked up this > summer. It was made by Jupiter, and and consists of a ~4U rackmount box, > a keyboard, and maybe some UNIBUS boards. I haven't had any time to > investigate it, so I don't really know much about it at all. I do know > that the keyboard looks cool, with a joystick on either side of the keys. > >From what I was told, all it needs is a suitable monitor. Do you want it? I want everything :-). But can I take care of it? Well, I'd say, my project is very focused on VAX 6000 and VAX 11/785, so, if it is a UNIBUS card it would give me incentives to really go get that UNIBUS extension box as well. Are you serious? Well, I'd say yes! regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From schvin at schvin.net Thu Aug 2 21:34:16 2001 From: schvin at schvin.net (George Lewis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: SunOS Message-ID: <20010803023416.B11572@schvin.net> Hello all, I've tried checking ebay every once in awhile for SunOS media, and the best I've found is the occasional box of documentation or whatever, but no media. I was not blessed with my very own unix machines until after Solaris had come to be popular, but I'd like very much to put SunOS on some of my sparcs now, just for grins. Does anyone know where one could pick up some SunOS media? I'm kind of hoping that there is a school or corporation that has a bunch sitting in a cabinet, or am I just pushing my luck, and most likely they've been tossed by unknowing or uncaring personnel? Or does one just have to get lucky and find someone with an extra set lying around? Thanks! George -- http://schvin.net/ From rws at enteract.com Thu Aug 2 21:39:02 2001 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <15209.35739.895131.807890@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 2, Bill Bradford wrote: > > Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or > > do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ? > > I've never been able to bring myself to do that myself, but I know > of several people who swear by that method. Guys, check out a board stuffing house or someplace that has a PCB assembly line sometime. Now that the EPA has regulated volatile organic compound-based fluxes and solvents (like alcohol), most places use a water-based flux. A couple of years ago a place I worked at changed over to a lemon juice-based flux. It worked just as well as the propan-2-ol stuff and smelled better. But, it was conductive. So, we went out and bought a Frigidaire dishwasher and put it at the end of the line, just after the wave solder pot. After the boards came out of the pot, they went into the cooling racks, then right into the dishwasher for a hot cycle, no soap. And when we had a company dinner (it was a small company), I'd get stuck cleaning out the wire ends and odd resistors and capacitors that didn't solder out of the bottom before we put the dishes in. Never had a problem. The only things you need to look out for are electromechanical items that are not washable- some switches, speakers, potentiometers, and such. Those things tend to trap or absorb water. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Aug 2 21:39:47 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) References: <200108022244.f72Mivk78355@aurora.regenstrief.org> <001101c11bad$34dbd980$8b88a0ca@omega> Message-ID: <3B6A0EF3.EB52285E@aurora.regenstrief.org> Tim Crawley wrote: > I don't know if I could afford to run an 11/785 as a workstation. The > power bill would be HUGE. As it is, to power up my 11/785 I have to > run extention cords to 3 seperate power circuits in the house (no, I don't > have 3 phase power connected at home). hihi, certainly so. Fortunately I have a 220 V 60 A line run directly into my basement, so that gives me 13.2 kW. That sounds like enough, technically. Financially, though, I won't run this thing 24/7. Well, unless I would put a solar cell grid on my rooftop and a wind-turbine into my yard, and a water turbine into my sewer line :-). Seriously, they say a wind-turbine does about 1 kW on a windy day, so take 6 of them... regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Aug 2 22:08:42 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:55 2005 Subject: FS: SCSI Scanner References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010801122920.032430d0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B6A15BA.832F8482@aurora.regenstrief.org> The UNIBUS cabinet notwithstanding, but if you haven't received a claim on this, I would. Unfortunately I can't come by (how I would enjoy seeing your garage sale :-). So if you'd consider shipping, I'm in, and won't bargain down this one :-) -Gunther Chuck McManis wrote: > > Does anyone in the S.F. Bay area need or want a UMAX 600DPI/30bit > color/flat bed/SCSI interface scanner? Comes with scanner, software (PC Win > 3.1/Win 95/Win NT), cables, terminator, and SCSI card (ISA). This was my > scanner of choice until I upgraded to a USB based scanner. I can make you a > good deal ($10 and its all yours, bwa-hahaha) or come by Saturday to our > garage sale and bargain us down :-) > > --Chuck -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 2 22:28:26 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <996809314.467.2.camel@DESK-2> This may sound unusual, but I find that running any type of enclosure or case through the dishwasher with Cascade detergent works *wonders*. Just make sure that the plate warmer is off, and you use the "mild cycle". Jeff On 02 Aug 2001 00:52:54 -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench > out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this > has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it. > > Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment? > Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of > alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E... > > (I know, first rule: "document where everything goes") > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 2 22:34:40 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010802223302.O25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the computer graphics in movie Tron? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 2 22:37:10 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <15209.59571.945247.127021@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010802223531.Q25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 2, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > What about boards with core on them? > > I wouldn't get core wet...nor would I hit it with an air compressor. How would I go about cleaning it, then? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 2 23:08:31 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <20010802223302.O25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: And was it true vector, or was it some pseudo-vector vector-to-raster stuff? Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > computer graphics in movie Tron? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Aug 2 23:15:42 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108022346.f72NkFU01914@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 2, 2001 04:46:15 pm" Message-ID: <20010803041551Z567531-28192+1472@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > > Last night I was browsing the UNIBUS/PDP-11 field guide on the > > Web before I went to sleep. Then I dreamed of a VAX 11/785 with > > an UNIBUS extension cabinet full of cards. Included was a 3, 4, > > 5, or so card-set that together comprises a video interface. Hook > > up a composite monitor or RGB monitor and there you have it: > > > > A VAX 11/785 as a workstation! > > > > Write a driver for X11R6 for it and off we go. Has anybody ever > > seen those UNIBUS video monitor adapter sets? I suppose they > > were meant for PDP-11s, but I think running them with a VAX > > would be way cooler. Might not be possible, and certainly would > > involve some serious fiddling. But in a machine that has 10 or > > more cards for just the CPU, a 4 board video adapter would be > > the appropriate thing, wouldn't it? :-) > > Read up on the VS100. It hooks up the the VAX 11/78x via a fiberoptic > cable. IIRC, this was the original development platform for X11. Warning, > there seems to be very little info available on the VS100. > Well sort of, it wasn't version 11 of X at that time. I'm not sure which version of X was the first released outside of MIT. We were running X on VS100's in the 1984/85 time frame. There is an article on X in ACM Transaction on Graphics around 1986 which would have a lot of the details on the early versions of X. From rdd at smart.net Thu Aug 2 23:37:33 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <996809314.467.2.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: On 02 Aug 2001 00:52:54 -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench > out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this > has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it. After removing the dust in a way that won't cause any electrostatic discharge to zap anything, and removing all of the boards and other electrical components, take the cabinets, etc. outside on a warm sunny day and give them a good blast from the garden hose. Then, let them dry in the sun, which shouldn't take too long. Simple Green seems to work wonders on dirty plastic cabinets. It seems to me that soaking extremely dirty circuit boards with a garden hose, as long as they have no stickers, or EPROM covers, on them, whcih could come loose, and then letting them dry thoroughly on a warm afternoon, should cause no problems. Any thoughts on this? Note: you might want to be careful with the dust. I don't mean to sound like an alarmist, but in a small percentage of collected systems, dangers may lurk. Some dust and residue may cause no problems other than to irritate allergies; however, carcinogens and other biohazards may lurk in some dust. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 2 23:21:07 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <20010802223302.O25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 02, 2001 10:34:40 PM Message-ID: <200108030421.f734L7812509@shell1.aracnet.com> > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > computer graphics in movie Tron? The "Flooney F1" which was a PDP-10 clone. TRON is apparently a PDP-10 opcode. What I can't remember is what OS they used. Zane From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 3 00:31:05 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802184259.R25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B6A3719.2D644BB9@internet1.net> To get water out of nooks and crannies, compressed air from an air compressor is what I use. I have heard that it can create static, but at that point, I feel if the boards going to go bad it's going to go bad. I don't think a hair dyer would be all that efficient, unless maybe you were only concerned with one particular troublesome area on the board. Generally I don't pull chips. I haven't had any boards that really looked that bad. Occasionally I'll pull a chip that has bent pins. Normally I just push down on them a little bit, just to counter any chip creep that has taken place. Unfortunately, I know absolutely zero on core. Never even seen the stuff in real life :-( My computer experiences have all ben with 80's and 90's hardware. All microcomputers up until recently. Even then I'm only working with a MicroPDP11 and a MicroVax. You guys with PDP8's, old 11's, and other minis I'm sure will have cleaning issues I haven't dealt with yet... such as core. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Would a hair dryer work, or would I need some heavy duty source of > high-velocity air? Also, would one need to pull all the chips, clean them > separately, and then reseat them once the board was dry? > > What about boards with core on them? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 3 00:39:03 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <996809314.467.2.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: <3B6A38F7.B878720@internet1.net> Sometimes that will be my first step in case cleaning. Anything that is too big or is still dirty I take to the tub and use Comet Cleanser. In the dishwasher I use very little soap (Cascade here too) if I am cleaning anything metal. The Cascade will make it corrode as it dries. I found that out the hard way while cleaning a PS/2 Model 9577 with all the steal and aluminum bits. I had to hand wash the stuff over again, rubbing off all the white corrosion that had formed. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeffrey Ingber wrote: > > This may sound unusual, but I find that running any type of enclosure or > case through the dishwasher with Cascade detergent works *wonders*. > Just make sure that the plate warmer is off, and you use the "mild > cycle". > > Jeff From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 3 00:44:30 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <3B691883.B04B46EC@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3B6A3A3E.F4F668F0@internet1.net> Something I thought of that I hadn't mentioned yet. When letting the remaing water, that you couldn't fling off, dry in fron of than fan, stand the boards on end so gravity helps too. Maybe in a 1/2 hour or so turn the boards around/upside down/etc. That way water won't collect in a spot where it can't run off. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Aug 3 00:52:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: OT: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>This had the odd result of making for example the 1986 mustang with >>something like 200 HP from the 302 the fastest production Mustang to date >>in stock trim. Now if you update one of the old cars like the BOSS Mustang >>with modern tires the situation changes a lot. > > I would think so...I certainly can't see an '86 Mustang being >a better performer than say the GT-350 or GT-500 series machines. Are you talking about the Shelby mustangs the GT350 and KR500? Those were hardly production cards. My "guess" is that the fastest production Ford until recent times was the Pantera, and I think it remains about the fastest lets pretend it isn't too far from stock model. Fastest stock early Mustang is likely one of the BOSS models, maybe the 1969. The mud in all this is of course the tires. We are far enough off topic I am willing to let it pass on. From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 01:27:51 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 Message-ID: <521011527eea.527eea521011@ono.com> I've send some requests to more places and providers. You can be sure that I tell you the info when I have it. In fact, I'm interested not only cause of the RD52. I have in mind try to connect TWO hard disks. I think that could be possible to put two partitions (DL0 and DL1, by example) in the first disk, and DL3 and DL4 in the second. Mmmm... this takes me to ask another question: How much DL units (that is, RL0x devices) could be defined in one PDP-11/23 PLUS system (my personal object of study) ? This ask has a practical meaning: My system could has in a near future installed one DILOG DQ614 and one RL02 controller with one RL02 disk unit attached. And I has six RL02 cartridges that I like to use. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain Sergio ----- Mensaje Original ----- Remitente: Ethan Dicks Fecha: Viernes, Agosto 3, 2001 3:10 am Asunto: Re: DILOG DQ-614 > > --- SP wrote: > > Hello. I have one question to somebody that managed > > one DILOG DQ-614 in sometime. I've read the instructions > > of the DQ696 and the proceddings to access the ROM > > menu of this board appears to be applicable to the DQ614; > > that is, when I type: > > > > @7775000G > > > > ... in the ODT prompt of one PDP-11/23 PLUS, appears > > inmediately the '*' prompt. > > > > But, when I type 'FT', the prompt simply appears again. > > No menu. Nothing. If you send a break to the system, > > it makes appear again the @ prompt of the ODT. > > > > My interest about this is in access this phantom menu to > > be capable of partitioning and formating one RD52 Hard Disk > > that is connected to the board. > > I would love to hear more about this! I have had a DQ-614 for > over 10 years and have never been able to use it. Recently, > someone has posted the jumper settings on a web page, but I have > not managed to get the formatting software from anywhere. > > I had no idea there might be a hidden formatting menu. > > More! More! > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 01:30:32 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) Message-ID: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> Hello. Anybody knows of somebody that could sell or obtain the two CIS (commercial instruction set) chips for one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? I have the Floating Point option installed and I'd like to has this option too. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain Sergio From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 01:37:09 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Datasystems Design Board + RX33 floppies Message-ID: <521b9e524978.524978521b9e@ono.com> Hello. Well, I think the title says all about this message. I have one Datasystems Design Board with one 26 (minus 1) pins. It appears to have attached in the past one DSD440 or 880 unit. I have no one of these actually, only one double DEC RX33 diskette unit. The questions are: * Can I use this board with this diskette units ? * What cables (or additional devices) I need ? * How do the system recognize the diskette units (RX01, 02...) ? I'll agree any information about these matters, thanks. Greetings and best Regards from Spain Sergio From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 01:40:23 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: UC04 scsi board on one PDP/11 23 PLUS Message-ID: <530e78530df2.530df2530e78@ono.com> Hello again ! This is my final question about the boards that I have installed actually in the PDP/11 23 PLUS. Is one Emulex UC04, with one SCSI interface of 50 pin. I'd like to put it to work. Anybody knows where could be obtained information about this board ? Do somebody has aby practical experience putting it to work in one system like mine or similar ? Is there some special requeriment about disks to use ? I'll agree any info about this matter, thanks. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain. Sergio From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 3 02:25:38 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 In-Reply-To: <521011527eea.527eea521011@ono.com> References: <521011527eea.527eea521011@ono.com> Message-ID: <10278.192.18.243.4.996823538.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Sergio, You can have up to 4 drives per controller, and up to 2 controllers per system. BTW, RD5x drives are usually seen as DU devices, not as DL ones. Ed > I've send some requests to more places and providers. > You can be sure that I tell you the info when > I have it. > > In fact, I'm interested not only cause of the RD52. > I have in mind try to connect TWO hard disks. I think > that could be possible to put two partitions (DL0 > and DL1, by example) in the first disk, and DL3 and DL4 > in the second. > > Mmmm... this takes me to ask another question: How much DL > units (that is, RL0x devices) could be defined in one > PDP-11/23 PLUS system (my personal object of study) ? > This ask has a practical meaning: My system could has > in a near future installed one DILOG DQ614 > and one RL02 controller with one RL02 disk unit attached. > And I has six RL02 cartridges that I like to use. > > Greetings and Best Regards from Spain > > Sergio > > ----- Mensaje Original ----- > Remitente: Ethan Dicks > Fecha: Viernes, Agosto 3, 2001 3:10 am > Asunto: Re: DILOG DQ-614 > >> >> --- SP wrote: >> > Hello. I have one question to somebody that managed >> > one DILOG DQ-614 in sometime. I've read the instructions >> > of the DQ696 and the proceddings to access the ROM >> > menu of this board appears to be applicable to the DQ614; >> > that is, when I type: >> > >> > @7775000G >> > >> > ... in the ODT prompt of one PDP-11/23 PLUS, appears >> > inmediately the '*' prompt. >> > >> > But, when I type 'FT', the prompt simply appears again. >> > No menu. Nothing. If you send a break to the system, >> > it makes appear again the @ prompt of the ODT. >> > >> > My interest about this is in access this phantom menu to >> > be capable of partitioning and formating one RD52 Hard Disk >> > that is connected to the board. >> >> I would love to hear more about this! I have had a DQ-614 for >> over 10 years and have never been able to use it. Recently, >> someone has posted the jumper settings on a web page, but I have not >> managed to get the formatting software from anywhere. >> >> I had no idea there might be a hidden formatting menu. >> >> More! More! >> >> -ethan >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! >> Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ >> From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 3 02:31:14 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Datasystems Design Board + RX33 floppies In-Reply-To: <521b9e524978.524978521b9e@ono.com> References: <521b9e524978.524978521b9e@ono.com> Message-ID: <14338.192.18.243.4.996823874.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Sergio, I have a similar DSD board and drive, the drives are seen as 2 RX02's. You need the box with the drives as well, as it also contains some logic. I am not aware of any possebility that an original RX02 will work with the DSD interface or will RX33 ones do. Ed > > Hello. Well, I think the title says all about this message. > I have one Datasystems Design Board with one 26 (minus 1) pins. > It appears to have attached in the past one DSD440 or 880 unit. > I have no one of these actually, only one double DEC RX33 > diskette unit. The questions are: > > * Can I use this board with this diskette units ? > * What cables (or additional devices) I need ? > * How do the system recognize the diskette units (RX01, 02...) ? > > I'll agree any information about these matters, thanks. > > Greetings and best Regards from Spain > > Sergio From marko at engia.se Fri Aug 3 03:28:22 2001 From: marko at engia.se (Marko Krejic) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 References: Message-ID: <003001c11bf6$a273b000$d300a8c0@MARKO> But do you think it possible for you to scan the schematics? Br Marko ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Epson HX-20 > > I got one old (is there any new =) ) Epson HX-20 and i wonder if there is > > some manual or some other information about how to program it in assembler? > > Is there any hardware information so that i could know on which addresses > > the periphal is on and how to access it? > > I have the hardware manual for the HX20, which includes schematics, etc. > I should therefore be fairly easy to work out the memory map of the main > processor (assuming it's not already in the manual). > > Problem is, there are 2 processors in there. One runs the user programs > and does some I/O, the other does timing-criitcal I/O. And there's no > information on the second processor in the manual. Well, OK, we know what > it is, and how it's wired up, but this one runs from interal ROM, and > there's no info on the ROM code or the protocol to talk to it . It > communcates with the main processor via a serial link, which can also be > switched so the main processor talks to the Serial (5 pin) socket on the > back -- the one used for the TF20 disk, etc. > > There is supposed to be a software reference manual as well, but I don't > have it ;-( > > -tony > From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 04:04:50 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 Message-ID: <535408539aaa.539aaa535408@ono.com> > Sergio, Hello ! > You can have up to 4 drives per controller, and up to 2 > controllers per > system. Ok. This is good. > BTW, RD5x drives are usually seen as DU devices, not as DL ones. Mmmm... This board treats one Mfm Hard Disk attached to it like up to four DL drives, from DL0 to DL3. The drive must be partitioned with one partition by drive emulated. That is what can be deducted reading the (poor) info that could be located in the Internet. We speak about one RD52. I suppose it could be divided in three DLx emulated drives. Thanks for the answer, Ed. Sergio From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 04:07:56 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Datasystems Design Board + RX33 floppies Message-ID: <539f13535932.535932539f13@ono.com> > Sergio, Hi again ! > I have a similar DSD board and drive, the drives are seen as 2 RX02's. > You need the box with the drives as well, as it also contains some > logic. I > am not > aware of any possebility that an original RX02 will work with the DSD > interface or > will RX33 ones do. :-( Is there anybody out there (mainly in Europe) that could send or purchase me one of this DSD monsters ? Thanks, Ed. Sergio From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Aug 3 03:59:12 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z Message-ID: <3B6A67E0.49EEE786@tinyworld.co.uk> I've just received some issues of PCW magazine, from 1978 and 1979. Pages and pages of adverts and articles about machines that I'd previously only heard about on this list, including the Exidy Sorceror and the SOL. I really considered that I'd struck gold when I came across adverts for the Research Machines 380Z because I had been wanting to know how much this machine cost for ages. There are several pages on the Web which quote prices for this machine, but never with any indication of the source and rarely with details of the configuration. The non-historians who put these pages up might as well have picked a figure out of the air! Does anyone have Vol. 1, No. 2 of this magazine, dated June 1978? They reviewed the 380Z in that issue. I know this because No. 6 includes the following update, partially quoted here for the benefit of the other 380Z owners on this list: --quote-- There have been several changes in the Research Machines 380Z since the PCW review of it in the June (No. 2) issue. The standard operating system has been extended so that the following are standard on all 380Z and 280Z systems. Normal cassette I/O is now at 1200 baud, but the option of 300 baud (standard CUTS) is retained. The screen output, unless selected otherwise, is scrolled one page at a time, the next page being called by typing any key. Continuous scrolling and scrolling one line at a time are also possible and all the different modes can be selected under program control. Printer and Serial Interface driving routines are now also included in the operating system, and direct connection may be made to parallel interface printers such as the PR40 or Centronics 700 range. Research Machines themselves are distributing the Centronics 779 and 701 and the Trend 800. Several specific criticisms or suggestions in the PCW review have been acted on: the fast cassette I/O is assumed as the normal rate, when the page is full in page mode the cursor blinks on and off, and loading can now be interrupted by a single key stroke at all times. The housing is completely new; a strong and attractive instrument case is used. There is the same room for system expansion and the case will fit into a standard 19" rack. Further features have been added to the BASIC Interpreters. A version is available which included the ability to read and write data files on cassette. It utilises the RML cassette file system and can be used with one or two cassette recorders. The RML Interactive Text Editor and the RML Absolute Assembler have been released. The Text Editor is character oriented and may be used in immediate mode; its uses include source program or data preparation. The Z80 assembler uses Zilog mnemonics and produces object code in either the industry standard 'Intel' format or the RML binary format. It contains its own text editor which uses a subset of the commands available in RML's full Text Editor. --end quote-- One of the other issues contains a tiny picture of the 380Z in its original white case. No piccies of the 280Z though. I'll put the rest of the 380Z stuff up on my site soon. I won't be doing much more typing today -- it's up to Olympia to the Great British Beer Festival for me! Regards, Paul From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Aug 3 04:10:49 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" Message-ID: <3B6A6A99.8747B19E@tinyworld.co.uk> The Letters page of these magazines are as interesting as some of the articles. Of course, when we're talking about over 20 years ago in a hobbyist magazine, the letter-writers of one issue were quite likely to write articles in the next. Two extracts for you. >From David C. Broughton of Northwood, Middlesex, in the November 1978 issue: Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes to zero." >From P.F.T. Tilsley of Loughborough, Leics., in the May 1979 issue: The choice of the Z80 for a home system at this time is perhaps a little rash because of the choice of 16 bit processors making their appearance. A better choice would probably be the Z8000 which is due to be available in the next few months. Three years later, I still bought a Z80 system. Ho hum. Regards, Paul From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Aug 3 04:13:40 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: TOPS PC FlashCards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually found some TOPS PC FlashCards, anybody have some software? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Aug 3 04:06:05 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: DEC 3 fat pin cable In-Reply-To: References: <200108022229.f72MT7a78168@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: I can't remember who it was looking for something like this, but I brought home a DEC 3 fat pin video cable that has bare wires on the other end (bnc removed for some reason, but plenty of room to put some back on). Overall the cable is around 10' in length. Interested person email me directly. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Aug 3 04:22:48 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <996809314.467.2.camel@DESK-2> References: <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> <20010802005254.J19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >This may sound unusual, but I find that running any type of enclosure or >case through the dishwasher with Cascade detergent works *wonders*. OUCH! That stuff is VERY harsh, a bit too much and it will etch glass. From hansp at aconit.org Fri Aug 3 06:16:30 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <3B6A67E0.49EEE786@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <3B6A880E.68CA1567@aconit.org> Paul Williams wrote: > Does anyone have Vol. 1, No. 2 of this magazine, dated June 1978? They > reviewed the 380Z in that issue. I know this because No. 6 includes the > following update, partially quoted here for the benefit of the other > 380Z owners on this list: Yes I have the complete run from first issue till sometime in the late 80's when the magazine became boring like all the others. I will dig out the article and scan it for you. Regards, -- HBP From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 3 06:31:19 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) In-Reply-To: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> Message-ID: >Hello. Anybody knows of somebody that could sell or obtain >the two CIS (commercial instruction set) chips >for one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? I have the Floating Point option installed >and I'd like to has this option too. My general reaction, is good luck! Your best bet at this point in time will be to track down /23+ boards with both the CIS and FP installed (which probably won't be easy). However, do you really need CIS? From what I've seen it falls more in the interesting to have, rather than the need to have, unless you've some sort of business need for it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com Fri Aug 3 07:13:28 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: <200108030421.f734L7812509@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 2, 2001 09:21:07 pm" Message-ID: <200108031213.f73CDS695315@bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com> > > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > > computer graphics in movie Tron? > > The "Flooney F1" which was a PDP-10 clone. TRON is apparently a PDP-10 > opcode. What I can't remember is what OS they used. > > Zane Foonly F1... I believe they ran a Tops-10 varient. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 3 07:13:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225579@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > on 8/2/01 9:07 AM, Douglas Quebbeman at dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com > wrote: > > In December 1983, I took a recent issue of some PC magazine > > into a Radio Shack, and showed them the Radio Shack ad with > > a picture of Windows 1.0 (or 0.75?) running on a Tandy 2000. > > I said this is what I want. They said we have the computer > > but we've never seen or heard of Windows. What's that? > > Windows 1 required a special driver disk, which had drivers for both the > digital mouse and the Model 2000's hires graphics adapter, to run on the > Model 2000. It is the only version of Windows that will run on the machine. > If anyone happens to have that driver disk though, which carried Tandy part# > 7002611, I'd be interested in obtaining a copy. To the best of my knowledge > the driver disk was provided seperately. Ok, count me in for one if they become available, I've got a 2000 too! -dq From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 3 07:25:02 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) Message-ID: <5479e7548d6c.548d6c5479e7@ono.com> > My general reaction, is good luck! Your best bet at this point in > timewill be to track down /23+ boards with both the CIS and FP > installed (which > probably won't be easy). However, do you really need CIS? From > what I've > seen it falls more in the interesting to have, rather than the > need to > have, unless you've some sort of business need for it. My interest is about do some probes with COBOL and another compiler(s) that could take advantage of this option, checking the differences in speed and reliability with and without the CIS. Greetings Sergio From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 3 06:58:22 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) References: <200108030421.f734L7812509@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <000201c11c17$2fbc9c40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > computer graphics in movie Tron? One company (there were at least three for Tron), MAGI, actually used an IBM Mainframe programmed with punch cards (I don't know which framebuffer they used). Not too exciting to watch being done. Remember, CG was and still is made in non-real-time, only back then it was a little more extreme. MAGI Synthavision was a real early bird. I remember seeing an article for it in Popular Science in the 70's. John A. From marino13 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 3 07:28:26 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (marino13@btinternet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z Message-ID: <6939607.996841706997.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Would be great if you could make that available to all of us. By the way, does anyone have any other stuff from old mags scanned and uploaded anywhere on teh web? I'm very interested in getting as much as I can, and also if anyone has any spare mags for sale I collect these too! Shaun > Paul Williams wrote: > > > Does anyone have Vol. 1, No. 2 of this magazine, dated June 1978? They > > reviewed the 380Z in that issue. I know this because No. 6 includes the > > following update, partially quoted here for the benefit of the other > > 380Z owners on this list: > > Yes I have the complete run from first issue till sometime in the late > 80's when the magazine became boring like all the others. > > I will dig out the article and scan it for you. > > Regards, > > -- HBP From hansp at aconit.org Fri Aug 3 08:20:13 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <6939607.996841706997.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3B6AA50D.6717C80D@aconit.org> marino13@btinternet.com wrote: > Would be great if you could make that available to all of us. I wll make it so... > By the way, does anyone have any other stuff from old mags scanned and uploaded anywhere on teh web? I'm very interested in getting as much as I can, and also if anyone has any spare mags for sale I collect these too! I tried to get PCW interetsed in getting the collection scanned and on line but had no luck. Perhaps it's time to ask again, just their OK to put up scans more than, say, 10 years old would be helpful. -- HBP From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Aug 3 08:49:20 2001 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: <200108031213.f73CDS695315@bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > > > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > > > computer graphics in movie Tron? > > > > The "Flooney F1" which was a PDP-10 clone. TRON is apparently a PDP-10 > > opcode. What I can't remember is what OS they used. > > > > Zane > > Foonly F1... > > I believe they ran a Tops-10 varient. Actually, the Foonly ran a variant of TENEX, which was the predecessor to TOPS-20. (which reminds me - if anyone has, or knows where to find, a copy of any distribution of TENEX on magtape, please contact me....) --Pat. From Gary.Messick at itt.com Fri Aug 3 09:12:26 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Chevy Vega Re: Cheap cars (was: 1%...) Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B27@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> OT: When I was a kid, we used to have a 30' Wellcraft Scarab Offshore boat. Not only was it one of the first to have big blocks (Chevy 454's), we had 6-71's on them. This was back in the late 70's early 80's, when the professional offshore racers where CID limited, normally aspirated. Once a year they'd come to Lake St. Clair in MI for a race. They'd be all decked out in their flack jacket/life vests, full-face helmuts, and we'd BLOW past them with our stereo blasting, girls sittin' on the back in bikini's. Boy did THAT pi$$ them off! Gary > DQ wrote: > > [Memory lane, snipped] > > Thanks for that ;-) > > > I still get chills when I hear the blower on the 327 on Mad Max's > > car in the first movie... didn't that have an Edelbrock manifold? > > I remember thinking that it looked like it had a 6-71 on it, and > Edelbrock certainly makes (or at least made) manifolds for > suck-through > applications of the 6-71. However I also remember the blower being > clutched, which made little sense -- unless it was a blow-through > application with some sort of bypass for when the blower was shut > down. > > Whatever. It had that nice 6-71 whine, which is what > _really_ matters :-) From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Aug 3 09:25:10 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Foonly Message-ID: "TRON" is also "Trace On" in MS-BASIC. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter [mailto:pechter@bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:13 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Foonly > > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > > computer graphics in movie Tron? > > The "Flooney F1" which was a PDP-10 clone. TRON is apparently a PDP-10 > opcode. What I can't remember is what OS they used. > > Zane Foonly F1... I believe they ran a Tops-10 varient. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 09:32:16 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: <3B6A3719.2D644BB9@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010803143216.91678.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chad Fernandez wrote: > Unfortunately, I know absolutely zero on core. Never even seen the > stuff in real life :-( > > My computer experiences have all ben with 80's and 90's hardware. All > microcomputers up until recently. Even then I'm only working with a > MicroPDP11 and a MicroVax. You guys with PDP8's, old 11's, and other > minis I'm sure will have cleaning issues I haven't dealt with yet... > such as core. My opinion is don't clean it if you don't have to. My first exposure to core was when I was in High School on a PDP-8/L I picked up at Dayton for $35. I cleaned the crud out of the machine and saw lots of fluff and schmutz at the edges of the core where the interconnect wires on the stack acted as a 10000 micron filter :-) I tried to carefully pick the fluff out near the edge as best I could, but I think either a) it was bad when I got it or b) I broke it during cleaning. Either way, the machine did not pass a simple memory test, so I opened it up. Unfortunately, the PCB holes in the stack are only slightly larger than the wires used to hold it all together. Desoldering with a Ratshack iron was not working. All I did was cook the fiberglass. In the end, I cut the stack apart to see what was inside (mind you, this was 15+ years ago and I'm still sorry I did it)... here's what it looks like now... Exterior: http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg Interior: http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg Note the missing core - this is what happens when a 16-year-old with no experience, gains experience the hard way. :-( I wish I'd have known some of you people then. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 09:43:33 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <000201c11c17$2fbc9c40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20010803144333.53449.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been > > answered before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they > > use to do the computer graphics in movie Tron? > > One company (there were at least three for Tron), MAGI, actually used an > IBM Mainframe programmed with punch cards (I don't know which framebuffer > they used). Not too exciting to watch being done. Remember, CG was and > still is made in non-real-time, only back then it was a little more > extreme. MAGI Synthavision was a real early bird. I remember seeing an > article for it in Popular Science in the 70's. A buddy of mine I still see on a regular basis, hand-wrapped the frame- buffer for the 11/780 at Cranston-Csuri, here in Columbus, late 1970s- early 1980s. At one point, they were one of the premiere graphics companies in the country. I know they did intros to Sunday sports shows (if you ever saw a football morph into a basketball and sink on a rim-shot, that was them) and they did some of the opening graphics (of the Huntington Bank building, downtown) for "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank", a cheesy low- budget Canadian film starring Raul Julia before he was famous. C-S died because they were charging outrageous fees per second of animation and when Apollo and other workstations came along, it became cheaper for their customers to buy the equipment _and_ staff it than it was to keep paying C-S for their animations. They were the dinosaurs when the mammals moved in. Neat toys, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 3 08:50:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z In-Reply-To: <6939607.996841706997.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 marino13@btinternet.com wrote: > Would be great if you could make that available to all of us. > > By the way, does anyone have any other stuff from old mags scanned and > uploaded anywhere on teh web? I'm very interested in getting as much > as I can, and also if anyone has any spare mags for sale I collect > these too! Classicmag Collection http://w3.one.net/~jimoaks/classicmag.html Scans of a variety of early computer magazines. Looks like they're making progress, albeit slowly. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From emu at ecubics.com Fri Aug 3 09:45:07 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: TRON, was : Re: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) References: <200108030421.f734L7812509@shell1.aracnet.com> <000201c11c17$2fbc9c40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B6AB8F3.264A4BEC@ecubics.com> > > All this talk makes me wonder (and I know this question has been answered > > before, but I have forgotten): what equipment did they use to do the > > computer graphics in movie Tron? There was a pretty long article in BYTE, November 1982 about this movie. cheers From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 3 10:07:01 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures References: <20010803143216.91678.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B6ABE14.DEBD49B1@internet1.net> Looks like a soffer piller up real close.... just toss it in the washer :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ethan Dicks wrote: > All I did was cook the fiberglass. In the end, I > cut the stack apart to see what was inside (mind you, this was 15+ years > ago and I'm still sorry I did it)... here's what it looks like now... > > Exterior: > > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg > > Interior: > > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg > > Note the missing core - this is what happens when a 16-year-old with > no experience, gains experience the hard way. :-( I wish I'd have > known some of you people then. > > -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 3 10:20:40 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/785 as a workstation :-) In-Reply-To: <200108030421.f734L7812509@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20010802223302.O25375-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010803101910.02574720@pc> At 09:21 PM 8/2/01 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >The "Flooney F1" which was a PDP-10 clone. TRON is apparently a PDP-10 >opcode. What I can't remember is what OS they used. I believe that's "Foonly": http://pdp10.nocrew.org/cpu/f1.html http://www.google.com/search?q=foonly+f1 - John From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Aug 3 10:31:17 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660B5@exc-reo1> > Hans B Pufal wrote: > >I tried to get PCW interetsed in getting the collection scanned and on >line but had no luck. Perhaps it's time to ask again, just their OK to >put up scans more than, say, 10 years old would be helpful. At least they now make their magazine available on CD-ROM (both for subscribers and just straight purchase even if you do no subscribe). I think adverts and so on are omitted (apparently copyright usually rests with the advertiser), but all the articles seem to be present. No use now, but scanning wil be unnecessary 10 years from now :-) Antonio From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 3 10:48:54 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: another DECServer question ... Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803084714.02853cc0@209.185.79.193> Ok, so my DECServer has to boot its image rather than run it from flash. Not a problem, however when the system reboots it loses all of its configuration information as far as I can tell. Is this normal? Is there no NVRAM inside or perhaps I've got a dead battery somewhere? Alternatively, is there some way to "upload" the configured image such that I could boot _that_ and thus be preconfigured? --Chuck From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 3 10:47:28 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Wanted: Old issues of DEC Professional Message-ID: <20010803104728.A19901@mrbill.net> I ran across a Jan. '84 issue of DEC Professional in the last box of docs-and-such I got in; anybody got other back issues of this magazine they'd be willing to part with? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Martin.Kaeser at auge.de Fri Aug 3 10:59:34 2001 From: Martin.Kaeser at auge.de (Martin.Kaeser@auge.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: CTM-70 info References: <200108030312.WAA81593@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B6ACA65.1F6777E2@auge.de> Hello all, i located a CTM-70 desk size computer and need some more information. Here is what i have (correction welcome): CTM is probably short for "Computertechnik M?ller", located in southern Germany in the early 1970s. Mr M?ller produced one or two dozends of his computers, then CTM went out of business. He went on to design the hyperstone processor. The hyperstone company promised to take a look at their archive, but i did not get any response after this first one. The machine is built into a desk, complete with keyboard, monitor, printer and three 8" drives. There is no documentation on the machine, the only software is costum made. I am looking for information on the hardware, the operating system (if any), and pinouts of the keyboard, printer and monitor connectors. Thanks, Martin K?ser From hansp at aconit.org Fri Aug 3 11:28:21 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660B5@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <3B6AD125.C4549355@aconit.org> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > > Hans B Pufal wrote: > > > >I tried to get PCW interetsed in getting the collection scanned and on > >line but had no luck. Perhaps it's time to ask again, just their OK to > >put up scans more than, say, 10 years old would be helpful. > At least they now make their magazine available > on CD-ROM (both for subscribers and just > straight purchase even if you do no subscribe). > I think adverts and so on are omitted (apparently copyright > usually rests with the advertiser), but all the articles seem > to be present. > No use now, but scanning wil be unnecessary 10 years from now :-) But they will be as much interest then as now ;-) Interesting though, I will definitely have to try asking again. -- HBP From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 3 11:32:19 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: Old parallel Conectix Quick Cam info wanted In-Reply-To: <20010803023416.B11572@schvin.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010803113219.00892530@ubanproductions.com> I have a couple of the older parallel Connectix Color Quick Cams that I would like to interface directly with a micro. I know that the information is or was available at one time, but I am having problems locating it on the web now. Does anyone here have it, or can you please give me a pointer to it? --tnx --tom From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Fri Aug 3 11:45:20 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:56 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) Message-ID: I realise that this isn't the answer you were looking for, but FYI the Solaris 8 ISOs for Sparc and x86 are available for free from Sun. (Alternatively you can pay an $80 "media fee" to Sun and they'll ship you the CDs WITH pretty lables and some printed material.) - M.S. George Lewis @classiccmp.org on 08/02/2001 09:34:16 PM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org cc: Subject: SunOS Hello all, I've tried checking ebay every once in awhile for SunOS media, and the best I've found is the occasional box of documentation or whatever, but no media. I was not blessed with my very own unix machines until after Solaris had come to be popular, but I'd like very much to put SunOS on some of my sparcs now, just for grins. Does anyone know where one could pick up some SunOS media? I'm kind of hoping that there is a school or corporation that has a bunch sitting in a cabinet, or am I just pushing my luck, and most likely they've been tossed by unknowing or uncaring personnel? Or does one just have to get lucky and find someone with an extra set lying around? Thanks! George -- http://schvin.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 3 12:02:30 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: another DECServer question ... In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 03, 2001 08:48:54 AM Message-ID: <200108031702.f73H2UV12312@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Ok, so my DECServer has to boot its image rather than run it from flash. > Not a problem, however when the system reboots it loses all of its > configuration information as far as I can tell. Is this normal? Is there no > NVRAM inside or perhaps I've got a dead battery somewhere? Alternatively, > is there some way to "upload" the configured image such that I could boot > _that_ and thus be preconfigured? The configuration information should be saved. Are you using change, define, or set? If you you set, only the volatile configuration is changed. define changes only the permanent configuration, and change changes both. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com Fri Aug 3 12:05:43 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: from "mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com" at "Aug 3, 2001 11:45:20 am" Message-ID: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> > > > I realise that this isn't the answer you were looking for, but FYI the > Solaris 8 ISOs for Sparc and x86 are available for free from Sun. > (Alternatively you can pay an $80 "media fee" to Sun and they'll ship you > the CDs WITH pretty lables and some printed material.) > > - M.S. > If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. Bill From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Aug 3 12:27:28 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: OT: HVD SCSI controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Price was about $20/30 from a surplus house. I've seen them > > anywhere from $20 or so up over $500 for the fancy external one. > > If you could mention the manufacturer... The places > I looked (referenced in the scsi faq) were $500 for > the bare internal version (50 pin) up to $795 for the > external version (68 pin LVD support). That was where > any price was mentioned at all (I figure the other places > were in the "If you to ask..." league). > > I would need a 68 to 68 pin converter, LVD not required. OK, as a final follow up to this, to my amazement, I just got a 68 pin HVD to 68 pin SE converter (guaranteed!) on ebay for $20 plus $5 shipping. Bill Sudbrink (who started this thread) From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Aug 3 12:28:42 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com wrote: > I realise that this isn't the answer you were looking for, but FYI the > Solaris 8 ISOs for Sparc and x86 are available for free from Sun. > (Alternatively you can pay an $80 "media fee" to Sun and they'll ship you > the CDs WITH pretty lables and some printed material.) Not quite -- unless things have changed in the last quarter there were only a handful of ISOs available for download -- essentially the core Solaris stuff for X86 and Sparc -- whereas the most recent you-actually-paid-for-it version I've received contained 19 CDs... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 3 12:39:09 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: DEC Doc's Wanted (was: Re: Wanted: Old issues of DEC Professional) In-Reply-To: <20010803104728.A19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >I ran across a Jan. '84 issue of DEC Professional in the last box >of docs-and-such I got in; anybody got other back issues of this >magazine they'd be willing to part with? None that I'm willing to part with, I'm also looking for these, "RSTS Professional", "Digital Technical Journal", and any other magazines DEC put out. I'm also looking for complete sets of DEC Reference Service manuals, but especially Volume 2, Book A from the August-November 1983 set. Plus, I'm looking for TOPS-20 documenation, or the TOPS-10 notebooks. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 3 13:00:23 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS In-Reply-To: <20010803023416.B11572@schvin.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010803130023.008bfae0@ubanproductions.com> Hi George, I have an old SunOS4.1.1 and Open Windows Version 2 SUNBIN, SunOS 4.1.1 Rev B for Sun-4c & Sun-4, SunOS 4.1.1 for Sun-3x & Sun-3 CD that I might be convinced to copy for you... --tom At 02:34 AM 8/3/01 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I've tried checking ebay every once in awhile for SunOS media, and >the best I've found is the occasional box of documentation or >whatever, but no media. > >I was not blessed with my very own unix machines until after Solaris >had come to be popular, but I'd like very much to put SunOS on some >of my sparcs now, just for grins. > >Does anyone know where one could pick up some SunOS media? I'm kind >of hoping that there is a school or corporation that has a bunch >sitting in a cabinet, or am I just pushing my luck, and most likely >they've been tossed by unknowing or uncaring personnel? Or does >one just have to get lucky and find someone with an extra set lying >around? > >Thanks! > >George > >-- >http://schvin.net/ > > From schvin at schvin.net Fri Aug 3 13:13:26 2001 From: schvin at schvin.net (George Lewis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com>; from pechter@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 01:05:43PM -0400 References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> > If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). > Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't > cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their > license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. I have not tried solaris 8 on a non-ultra machine, but may have to just to try it out. I do know that 2.6 works on my ss2s. A friend of mine does have solaris 8 running on a 10, but that's probably not terribly relevant. George > > > Bill -- http://schvin.net/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 3 13:17:16 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS In-Reply-To: <20010803023416.B11572@schvin.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010803131716.008b7190@ubanproductions.com> You might also consider running NetBSD, which runs quite nicely on the old sparcs... --tom At 02:34 AM 8/3/01 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I've tried checking ebay every once in awhile for SunOS media, and >the best I've found is the occasional box of documentation or >whatever, but no media. > >I was not blessed with my very own unix machines until after Solaris >had come to be popular, but I'd like very much to put SunOS on some >of my sparcs now, just for grins. > >Does anyone know where one could pick up some SunOS media? I'm kind >of hoping that there is a school or corporation that has a bunch >sitting in a cabinet, or am I just pushing my luck, and most likely >they've been tossed by unknowing or uncaring personnel? Or does >one just have to get lucky and find someone with an extra set lying >around? > >Thanks! > >George > >-- >http://schvin.net/ > > From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 3 13:37:50 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: Old issues of DEC Professional References: <20010803104728.A19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <006501c11c4b$8e7769c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I ran across a Jan. '84 issue of DEC Professional in the > last box of docs-and-such I got in; anybody got other back > issues of this magazine they'd be willing to part with? cut $date | sort | uniq -c | grep -v 1 --> One issue. Feb 1985, "Languages", is available. John A. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Aug 3 13:52:00 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net>; from schvin@schvin.net on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 06:13:26PM +0000 References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> Message-ID: <20010803135200.A3777580@uiuc.edu> As far as I know, Solaris 7 was the last OS to support the sun4c architecture (ss2, IPX, IPC, ELC, etc). Solaris 8 will run on sun4m machines (5, 10, 20...most (all?) machines with mbus processors + the sparc5 and a couple others) just fine, but you'd better have a) a lot of ram, or b) no graphics or it will be pretty slow on all but the newest sun4m's. If someone is interested in getting a media copy of Solaris 7 for an old sun4c machine (and is feeling pretty brave, as you'd better have a lot of ram...at LEAST 32MB for it to run even halfway reasonably without graphics, more if you want to run the X server without the machine thrashing to death), let me know... I've actually run an ss2 with 64M ram as a NAT firewall with solaris 7 and it actually worked pretty damn well :) George Lewis said: > > If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). > > Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't > > cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their > > license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. > > I have not tried solaris 8 on a non-ultra machine, but may have to > just to try it out. I do know that 2.6 works on my ss2s. > > A friend of mine does have solaris 8 running on a 10, but that's > probably not terribly relevant. > > George > > > > > > > Bill > > -- > http://schvin.net/ - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 3 14:00:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com>; from pechter@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 01:05:43PM -0400 <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> Message-ID: >> If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). >> Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't >> cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their >> license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. > >I have not tried solaris 8 on a non-ultra machine, but may have to >just to try it out. I do know that 2.6 works on my ss2s. > >A friend of mine does have solaris 8 running on a 10, but that's >probably not terribly relevant. Solaris 8 doesn't support Sparc 2's. I'm not sure that Solaris 8 is really any heavier than 2.6 though. Still I really don't expect 8 to boot on a SS2, besides even 2.6 on a SS2 with 96MB RAM is pretty painful. IIRC, my SS20/712 is now running Solaris 8 after the disk upgrade I did a while back. The only problem is, it's shutdown until we get cooler weather, it just puts out to much heat into the room to have it running since we don't have AC. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 3 12:27:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) In-Reply-To: Sergio Pedraja Cabo "PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS)" (Aug 3, 8:30) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> Message-ID: <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 3, 8:30, Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > > Hello. Anybody knows of somebody that could sell or obtain > the two CIS (commercial instruction set) chips > for one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? I have the Floating Point option installed > and I'd like to has this option too. In my experience, they're relatively rare. I've been actively looking for a set for ages, and the last "spare" set I came across was about six years ago -- and someone beat me to it :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 3 14:11:10 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: George Lewis "Re: SunOS (er... Solaris)" (Aug 3, 18:13) References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> Message-ID: <10108032011.ZM8970@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 3, 18:13, George Lewis wrote: > I have not tried solaris 8 on a non-ultra machine, but may have to > just to try it out. I do know that 2.6 works on my ss2s. > > A friend of mine does have solaris 8 running on a 10, but that's > probably not terribly relevant. Sun dropped support for the Sun4c architecture after Solaris 7. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 3 14:09:15 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: SunOS (er... Solaris)" (Aug 3, 13:05) References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <10108032009.ZM8966@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 3, 13:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). > Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't > cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their > license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hansp at aconit.org Fri Aug 3 14:08:54 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Old parallel Conectix Quick Cam info wanted References: <3.0.5.32.20010803113219.00892530@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3B6AF6C6.202642F0@aconit.org> Tom Uban wrote: > I have a couple of the older parallel Connectix Color Quick Cams > that I would like to interface directly with a micro. I know that > the information is or was available at one time, but I am having > problems locating it on the web now. Does anyone here have it, or > can you please give me a pointer to it? I think the reverse engneering project was aimed at providng Linus and BSD support so try trawling their sources. If found this lnk http://www.crynwr.com/qcpc/ which seems to provide some info and links. Good luck, -- HBP > > --tnx > --tom From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 3 14:09:52 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> Message-ID: <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Anybody see the Cray YMP-EL on ebay today? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261228599 The seller claims that it was used at Apple to design the Mac... The folklore goes that Woz walked into Cray's building and just asked to buy a Cray. Much later Seymour was heard to comment that he thought it was funny Apple used a Cray to design a Mac, since he himself used a Mac to design the next generation Crays... In the end, Apple didn't have a real use for the Cray, other than a nice ornament, though some say it may have been bought and used to simulate and design production tooling for some Apple products... Still, if it is ~that~ - machine - it would be quite a piece of history to own... There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... Heinz From matt at knm.yi.org Fri Aug 3 14:21:18 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: another DECServer question ... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803084714.02853cc0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: Hi, > Ok, so my DECServer has to boot its image rather than run it from flash. > Not a problem, however when the system reboots it loses all of its > configuration information as far as I can tell. Is this normal? Is there no > NVRAM inside or perhaps I've got a dead battery somewhere? Alternatively, > is there some way to "upload" the configured image such that I could boot > _that_ and thus be preconfigured? Hmm - first thing I'd check was that S1 wasn't stuck - if you boot it with S1 depressed, it wipes it's config. -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From schvin at schvin.net Fri Aug 3 14:23:54 2001 From: schvin at schvin.net (George Lewis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010803130023.008bfae0@ubanproductions.com>; from uban@ubanproductions.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 01:00:23PM -0500 References: <20010803023416.B11572@schvin.net> <3.0.5.32.20010803130023.008bfae0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20010803192354.K22597@schvin.net> Yo Tom, Thanks--several people have already offered to send me a CD, so it's covered, but thanks for the offer! George Tom Uban (uban@ubanproductions.com) wrote: > Hi George, > > I have an old SunOS4.1.1 and Open Windows Version 2 SUNBIN, SunOS 4.1.1 Rev B > for Sun-4c & Sun-4, SunOS 4.1.1 for Sun-3x & Sun-3 CD that I might be > convinced > to copy for you... > > --tom > > At 02:34 AM 8/3/01 +0000, you wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >I've tried checking ebay every once in awhile for SunOS media, and > >the best I've found is the occasional box of documentation or > >whatever, but no media. > > > >I was not blessed with my very own unix machines until after Solaris > >had come to be popular, but I'd like very much to put SunOS on some > >of my sparcs now, just for grins. > > > >Does anyone know where one could pick up some SunOS media? I'm kind > >of hoping that there is a school or corporation that has a bunch > >sitting in a cabinet, or am I just pushing my luck, and most likely > >they've been tossed by unknowing or uncaring personnel? Or does > >one just have to get lucky and find someone with an extra set lying > >around? > > > >Thanks! > > > >George > > > >-- > >http://schvin.net/ > > > > -- http://schvin.net/ From schvin at schvin.net Fri Aug 3 14:24:41 2001 From: schvin at schvin.net (George Lewis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010803131716.008b7190@ubanproductions.com>; from uban@ubanproductions.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 01:17:16PM -0500 References: <20010803023416.B11572@schvin.net> <3.0.5.32.20010803131716.008b7190@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20010803192441.L22597@schvin.net> Yup, already running OpenBSD on most of them in fact, just looking for some variety... It runs very nicely indeed, much much faster than Solaris on those older boxes. George Tom Uban (uban@ubanproductions.com) wrote: > You might also consider running NetBSD, which runs quite nicely on > the old sparcs... > > --tom > > At 02:34 AM 8/3/01 +0000, you wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >I've tried checking ebay every once in awhile for SunOS media, and > >the best I've found is the occasional box of documentation or > >whatever, but no media. > > > >I was not blessed with my very own unix machines until after Solaris > >had come to be popular, but I'd like very much to put SunOS on some > >of my sparcs now, just for grins. > > > >Does anyone know where one could pick up some SunOS media? I'm kind > >of hoping that there is a school or corporation that has a bunch > >sitting in a cabinet, or am I just pushing my luck, and most likely > >they've been tossed by unknowing or uncaring personnel? Or does > >one just have to get lucky and find someone with an extra set lying > >around? > > > >Thanks! > > > >George > > > >-- > >http://schvin.net/ > > > > -- http://schvin.net/ From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Aug 3 14:30:03 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <10108032009.ZM8966@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Um, I've got a bunch of old 2.7 media. Let me know what architecture you need and I'll either stuff the ISOs somewhere for you to fetch or simply burn copies and ship them off to you. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:09 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: SunOS (er... Solaris) On Aug 3, 13:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). > Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't > cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their > license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 14:29:00 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: My other computer is a Cray! (Heinz Wolter) References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <15210.64380.135021.623208@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Heinz Wolter wrote: > Anybody see the Cray YMP-EL on ebay today? > The folklore goes that Woz walked into Cray's building and just asked > to buy a Cray. Much later Seymour was heard to comment that he > thought it was funny Apple used a Cray to design a Mac, since he > himself used a Mac to design the next generation Crays... > > In the end, Apple didn't have a real use for the Cray, other than a nice > ornament, though some say it may have been bought and used to simulate > and design production tooling for some Apple products... One of the photos in the Y/MP-EL sales literature is a simulation of plastic distribution in an injection molding system. The molding is clearly a front case component for an early Mac. > Still, if it is ~that~ - machine - it would be quite a piece of history to > own... Indeed. > There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: > "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have > some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... Yes, I've always wanted one of those. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 3 16:42:15 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <20010803135200.A3777580@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <3B6B1AB7.B8E@xs4all.nl> Dan Wright wrote: snip > As far as I know, Solaris 7 was the last OS to support the sun4c architecture > (ss2, IPX, IPC, ELC, etc). Solaris 8 will run on sun4m machines (5, 10, > 20...most (all?) machines with mbus processors + the sparc5 and a snip S8 will run on sun4m (LX, ZX, SS5, SS10, SS20 ) & sun4u (Ultra's, blade's, Ex500 & Ex800 ) architectures. BTW, Redhad does (did?) have Linux for Sparc, performance is not bad at all. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From Gary.Messick at itt.com Fri Aug 3 14:40:29 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 14:45:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Ebay madness (Messick, Gary) References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Messick, Gary wrote: > Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 It sure doesn't hurt to gamble. I personally admire his audacity. Some stupid person with way too much money might buy it, having read about the "classic computer craze" in the Wall Street Journal or something. Capitalizing on the stupid might not boost one's karma, but I personally have very little patience for the stupid...so more power to the guy. I hope he gets his money. It does irritate me just a little, though, because I've wanted an H8 very badly nearly all my life, and will likely NEVER get one if this one sells at that price. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 3 16:56:02 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3B6B1DF2.6DDE@xs4all.nl> Hmm, I have an 11/24 board here with a twice the size of the regular cpu chips mounted in socket 4 & 5. Socket 3 is empty, while the standard setup contains 3 chips in socket 1,2 & 3. Would this be the CIS chip? Ed Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Aug 3, 8:30, Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > > > > Hello. Anybody knows of somebody that could sell or obtain > > the two CIS (commercial instruction set) chips > > for one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? I have the Floating Point option installed > > and I'd like to has this option too. > > In my experience, they're relatively rare. I've been actively looking for > a set for ages, and the last "spare" set I came across was about six years > ago -- and someone beat me to it :-( > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 3 15:14:04 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de. ittind.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803130745.03e4a4e0@209.185.79.193> He won't even get a bid. And if it did get a bid I guarantee you it would a fraudulent one. However, there is apparently an insurance scam that auction houses have to deal with apparently where a person sells something at auction to a shill (fake bidder) for some outrageous amount of money, then ships or somehow "loses" the item and collects the fully insured value. (less deductible of course). Some more interesting Ebay madness is that some nice VAX systems are going quite cheaply. There is a 4000/300 on Ebay for less than $20, the CPU alone is worth that, and if it has memory too... A 4000/200 in the nice BA215 case sold recently for $60. So you see the market works as you would expect, these things come out of the woodwork and the prices on ebay reflect the increased availability. --Chuck At 02:40 PM 8/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 3 17:13:32 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: <3B6B220C.B10@xs4all.nl> Obviously a prank of some sort, and there even no pictures. Besides that, anybody who is ready to lay down such an amount of money should rather spend it at a mental clinic. Messick, Gary wrote: > > Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From spedraja at ono.com Fri Aug 3 15:08:11 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) Message-ID: <016601c11c58$05d799c0$0301a8c0@marga> >On Aug 3, 8:30, Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: >> >> Hello. Anybody knows of somebody that could sell or obtain >> the two CIS (commercial instruction set) chips >> for one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? I have the Floating Point option installed >> and I'd like to has this option too. > >In my experience, they're relatively rare. I've been actively looking for >a set for ages, and the last "spare" set I came across was about six years >ago :-o > -- and someone beat me to it :-( Really :-( Thanks for the drink. I'll continue my search. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain. Sergio From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 3 15:11:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE>; from h.wolter@sympatico.ca on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:09:52PM -0400 References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <20010803151130.I19901@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:09:52PM -0400, Heinz Wolter wrote: > There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: > "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have > some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/abm64/CrayWWWStuff/ I'll have to dig, but the last time I read through this, a certain PowerBook model was used as a front-end.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 3 15:12:37 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:45:51PM -0400 References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010803151237.J19901@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:45:51PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > It does irritate me just a little, though, because I've wanted an H8 > very badly nearly all my life, and will likely NEVER get one if this > one sells at that price. > -Dave Local Goodwill has an H19 terminal, if you want me to pick it up and stick it next to the other stuff of yours in my garage.. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From pjschilling at gcstech.net Fri Aug 3 15:37:29 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC6702043F8F@naomi.gcstech.net> Message-ID: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416C5@naomi.gcstech.net> I have the sparc/intel cd that I purchased, can I legally make iso for you? mrbill could probably answer for us. Phil Schilling GCS Tech -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:09 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: SunOS (er... Solaris) On Aug 3, 13:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > If you can get Solaris8 to run on a Sparc2 let me know 8-). > Unfortunately their non-commercial license for Solaris 7 doesn't > cover use in anything other than Non Commerical stuff and their > license for Solaris 8 (which I own) won't run on any Sparc's I have. Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 3 15:35:56 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <20010803151130.I19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <048c01c11c5b$e6332e00$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Bill Bradford wrote: > On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:09:52PM -0400, Heinz Wolter wrote: > > There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: > > "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have > > some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/abm64/CrayWWWStuff/ > > I'll have to dig, but the last time I read through this, > a certain PowerBook model was used as a front-end.. I stand humbly corrected... s/Woz/Jobs/ >From the Cray Faq listed in the link - see below What a shame to make the YMP VME Force IOP pretend to be a lowly Mac or be relegated to NFS service... Heinz {snip} Originally purchased to help out on a computer on a chip project, the machines eventually earned their keep running MOLDFLOW an injection plastic modelling program ( producing some results in the form of Quicktime movies) and later as a file server. Other applications were CFD codes for disk drive design improvement and one source reports ".. they sometimes ran the first XMP as a single user MacOS emulator ... They had a frame buffer and a mouse hooked up to the IOP." T3d cube of cubes logo animated by changing the size of the surrounding balls. What is less known however is that the small active display panel on the T3d was an Apple powerbook. The powerbook ran a Macromedia presentation showing the T3d cube of cubes logo with an orbiting growing/shrinking sphere. The display at one site was changed to alternate with a presentation plaque display. It was rumoured that one site engineer ordered a collection of spare bits that, over time, comprised a complete new powerbook. The recent (Sept 1999) launch on the www.Apple.com web site of the G4 Macintosh computers displayed a YMP-8D computer on the processor page. Whilst there was no direct reference to that particular machine the was a requote of the Seymour quote about "using an Apple to simulate the Cray-3" in a sidebar. ( prob this should be Cray-2 ED). The G4 is being touted as a "Supercomputer for the desktop" and with the performance figures of a Gigaflop/s (1 CPU) it is certainly up to at least 1992 supercomputer cpu speed. The YMP pictured on the site would have had 0.333 Gflop/s per cpu but was sold as sustaining 1 Gflop/s, for the whole machine, on real life applications. It remains to be seen if the G4 can match the memory size, memory bandwidth and IO capacity of this 8 year old Cray. Supercomputers these days do a Teraflop/s. There is however no doubt that it will be cheaper to buy. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 15:37:11 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness Message-ID: >Some more interesting Ebay madness is that some nice VAX systems are going >quite cheaply. There is a 4000/300 on Ebay for less than $20, the CPU alone >is worth that, and if it has memory too... A 4000/200 in the nice BA215 >case sold recently for $60. So you see the market works as you would >expect, these things come out of the woodwork and the prices on ebay >reflect the increased availability. > >--Chuck > Seems to me that prices on eBay have dropped over the last year or so. This could be because of the depressed economy or the fact that some of us collectors are becoming "saturated". I've certainly slowed down on my purchases. Nowadays, a computer's gotta be really cheap before I'll buy it. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 3 15:57:59 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: >Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 Another thing against it is that the seller has absolutely no feedback. I would never even consider a purchase of any size from someone who was a complete unknown, not that I'd ever think about an H8 at that price even if I had the money. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 3 16:05:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: >Anybody see the Cray YMP-EL on ebay today? >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261228599 Interesting...two complete Cray's on eBay at the same time, both reported to have come from Apple, both claiming to have been used to design the Mac. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 3 16:08:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Newsweek mentions VCFe and Sellam In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225579@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225579@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Windows 1 required a special driver disk, which had drivers >for both the >> digital mouse and the Model 2000's hires graphics adapter, to run on the >> Model 2000. It is the only version of Windows that will run on the machine. >> If anyone happens to have that driver disk though, which carried Tandy part# >> 7002611, I'd be interested in obtaining a copy. To the best of my knowledge >> the driver disk was provided seperately. > >Ok, count me in for one if they become available, I've >got a 2000 too! I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. I've had 2000's since 1988 and have never come across this driver disk. I've got a Digi-mouse on a 2000HD with the color graphics board, so it would be cool to load it up though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 3 16:14:09 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <20010803151130.I19901@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:11:30PM -0500 References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <20010803151130.I19901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010803161409.W19901@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:11:30PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > I'll have to dig, but the last time I read through this, > a certain PowerBook model was used as a front-end.. http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/abm64/CrayWWWStuff/Cfaqp3.html#TOC1 There it is. The active display panel on a T3d was a powerbook. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 3 16:18:21 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416C5@naomi.gcstech.net>; from pjschilling@gcstech.net on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:37:29PM -0500 References: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC6702043F8F@naomi.gcstech.net> <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416C5@naomi.gcstech.net> Message-ID: <20010803161821.X19901@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:37:29PM -0500, Phil Schilling wrote: > I have the sparc/intel cd that I purchased, can I legally make iso for you? > mrbill could probably answer for us. Yeah - the "hobbyist/non-commercial" license covers all versions of Solaris. Basically, as long as its less than 8 CPUs, and not being used for a commercial purpose, you can copy Solaris for your buddies. Bill (http://www.sunhelp.org) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 3 16:23:10 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: from "Heinz Wolter" at Aug 03, 2001 03:09:52 PM Message-ID: <200108032123.f73LNAV19426@shell1.aracnet.com> > There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: > "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have > some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... > > Heinz Why is this so strange? I've seen Mac's used as intelligent terminals on a Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe, and I use one as the front-end to my OpenVMS cluster. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 3 16:28:55 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 03, 2001 07:09:15 PM Message-ID: <200108032128.f73LSth19706@shell1.aracnet.com> > Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, > and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. > > Pete Peter Turnbull I don't believe Solaris 7 was ever available online, there was the $20 hobbyist kit, which is kind of lame. Your best bet would probably be eBay, BUT, I assume that's not really an option in your case. Zane From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Fri Aug 3 16:29:50 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <048c01c11c5b$e6332e00$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > Bill Bradford wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:09:52PM -0400, Heinz Wolter wrote: > > > There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: > > > "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have > > > some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... > > > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/abm64/CrayWWWStuff/ > > > > I'll have to dig, but the last time I read through this, > > a certain PowerBook model was used as a front-end.. > > I stand humbly corrected... s/Woz/Jobs/ > >From the Cray Faq listed in the link - see below > What a shame to make the YMP VME Force IOP pretend > to be a lowly Mac or be relegated to NFS service... > Heinz An ol' friend of mine that worked at Apple told me the machine was used mostly not only for plastic molding (it seems it actually is a pretty interesting/intensive process), but also for motherboard design, as in placement/routing and more important thermal symulations. The machine was an YMP, not at EL thus I am afraid that the machine the guy is selling was never employed at apple. How did it end up in Boston from Cupertino? The machine was bought in the 80s (before Jobs left obviously) thus again it can not be an EL, since that line was introduced in the early nineties I seem to remember. I wonder if Apple still have their cray around, my friend told me that it was visible from the lobby of one of the buildings.... jobs seemed to like it because it looked so cool (his products might be not that good but that he has style.... I don't think Jobs has ever produced an ugly computer..... although he reached his pinnacle with NeXT darn those were cool looking computers!) _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From louiss at gate.net Fri Aug 3 16:30:24 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Where do you buy components? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108032130.RAA12119@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> There are some very nice electronics supply houses. Digi-key has an impressive catalog. But it isn't too good for obsolete parts, and the prices seem high. Jameco has a nice catalog, if they have what you want. I just bought all the chips (and some other components) to populate an Exidy Sorcerer motherboard from Unicorn Electronics (www.unicornelectronics.com). They had every single component I ordered, including some chips long out of production. Prices seemed good to me. And delivery was free and arrival was the same week. And the packing was all very neat in chip tubes. I just wanted to mention this good experience, since I think it is important to support businesses that support our hobby. What other sources are there that you all recommend, or disparage? Louis From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 16:39:21 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Re: Ebay madness (wanderer) References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> <3B6B220C.B10@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <15211.6665.255374.652446@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, wanderer wrote: > Obviously a prank of some sort, and there even no pictures. > Besides that, anybody who is ready to lay down such an amount of > money should rather spend it at a mental clinic. ...or perhaps be directed to some of MY auctions. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Aug 3 16:52:57 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <200108032123.f73LNAV19426@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 3, 1 02:23:10 pm" Message-ID: <200108032152.OAA12956@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > There was a T-shirt that sold on ebay recently that says: > > "My other computer is a Cray"..;) Strangely enough, Apple did have > > some deal with Cray to offer Macs as front ends to Crays... > Why is this so strange? I've seen Mac's used as intelligent terminals on a > Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe, and I use one as the front-end to my OpenVMS > cluster. And Apple offered software to allow a Mac to remotely administer Apple Network Servers, which run AIX, through a Control Panel-like interface. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 16:47:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Heinz Wolter) References: <200108031705.f73H5jF13826@bg-tc-ppp1374.monmouth.com> <20010803181326.G22597@schvin.net> <042401c11c4f$dfd5a800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <20010803151130.I19901@mrbill.net> <048c01c11c5b$e6332e00$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <15211.7162.25380.699563@phaduka.neurotica.com> I realize I'm slicing and dicing an article here, and I feel silly for doing that, but what the hell. I have a couple of comments. :) On August 3, Heinz Wolter wrote: > in a sidebar. ( prob this should be Cray-2 ED). The G4 is being touted as a > "Supercomputer for the desktop" and with the performance figures of a > Gigaflop/s (1 CPU) it is certainly up to at least 1992 supercomputer cpu ...but the vector length is so short that there's no way to sustain that for more than a few cycles. When configured for data types of a width comparable to Crays native 64-bit single precision, the vector depth is a whopping TWO elements. As much as I like the G4, dem's the facts. And if I see ONE MORE IDIOT on eBay advertising some slow-ass Dell Pentium crap as a "supercomputer" I'm going to hop on a plane and open up a can of 100% pure Whup Ass on the moron. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 16:56:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Francis. Javier Mesa) References: <048c01c11c5b$e6332e00$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <15211.7689.45406.755403@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Francis. Javier Mesa wrote: > from Cupertino? The machine was bought in the 80s (before Jobs left > obviously) thus again it can not be an EL, since that line was introduced > in the early nineties I seem to remember. I wonder if Apple still have 1991. > their cray around, my friend told me that it was visible from the lobby of > one of the buildings.... jobs seemed to like it because it looked so cool A neighbor of mine worked for both Cray Research and Apple. He may know someone who can check. I will ask him. > think Jobs has ever produced an ugly computer..... although he reached his > pinnacle with NeXT darn those were cool looking computers!) Hell, I think they're STILL cool looking computers! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:00:59 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <3B6A67E0.49EEE786@tinyworld.co.uk> <3B6A880E.68CA1567@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3B6B1F1B.DF32B2D4@tinyworld.co.uk> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Yes I have the complete run from first issue till sometime in the > late 80's when the magazine became boring like all the others. I'm afraid they were all destined to follow the trend, as the hobby mutated into a commercial enterprise. (Why am I saying that? I'm not old enough to have been an S100 bus or MK14 experimenter!) > I will dig out the article and scan it for you. You're a star, Hans. It's a good job you're not in this room, because I've just got back from the Beer Festival and I'd be wrapping my arms around you and slurring "you're my besht mate, you are". Paul, who can still type! From pjschilling at gcstech.net Fri Aug 3 17:11:24 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC6702043FA2@naomi.gcstech.net> Message-ID: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416C6@naomi.gcstech.net> I was pretty sure of that but didn't want any trouble caused for the group. Thanks Bill Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:18 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: SunOS (er... Solaris) On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:37:29PM -0500, Phil Schilling wrote: > I have the sparc/intel cd that I purchased, can I legally make iso for you? > mrbill could probably answer for us. Yeah - the "hobbyist/non-commercial" license covers all versions of Solaris. Basically, as long as its less than 8 CPUs, and not being used for a commercial purpose, you can copy Solaris for your buddies. Bill (http://www.sunhelp.org) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1237.monmouth.com Fri Aug 3 17:08:55 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1237.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:57 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <200108032128.f73LSth19706@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 3, 2001 02:28:55 pm" Message-ID: <200108032208.f73M8tl01201@bg-tc-ppp1237.monmouth.com> > > Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, > > and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. > > > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > I don't believe Solaris 7 was ever available online, there was the $20 > hobbyist kit, which is kind of lame. Your best bet would probably be eBay, > BUT, I assume that's not really an option in your case. > > Zane I was hoping Sun would open up 2.6 and later to the net like they did with 8... but it appears either licensing issues stop them or they are too interested in moving the new hardware. I posted requests on their sysadmin BigAdmin site and never heard a word back. Perhaps we need a DEC-like hobbyist push with them to get 2.x-7 available on the net for non-commercial use and a push to put the same license on 7 that they have on 8. 8 cost me $100 even though I can't run it on my current hardware. The server version of 7 with stuff like Solstice Disk Suite (in the 8 I have) would cost over $3k... (as an upgrade to the SunOS license these Sparc2's had). The desktop Sparc version is over $300 for the license and $100 for the media. I guess every Sparc sysadmin must've socked away sparc CD's from work to support their home Suns... 8-) (or they're running FreeBSD and Open/NetBSD) at home. Meanwhile I just picked up a 21 inch Trinitron refurb monitor which will handle BNC inputs so I can switch it between Vax and Sparc and PC. Bill Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 17:06:15 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Cameron Kaiser) References: <200108032123.f73LNAV19426@shell1.aracnet.com> <200108032152.OAA12956@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <15211.8279.344737.705336@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And Apple offered software to allow a Mac to remotely administer Apple > Network Servers, which run AIX, through a Control Panel-like interface. You mean A/UX? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Aug 3 17:40:18 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <3B6B2852.4BE57CF9@aurora.regenstrief.org> Well, I haven't watched the szene until april/may this year, but I'm not too confident that prices are dropping. Actually I think we ought to keep a low profile in order to keep this classic computer stuff from becoming a fad. Things like newspaper features will eventually hurt us, because the one main issue with classic computer stuff is that it's rare. As Chuck mentioned the VAX 4000/300s on ebay their prices are up by now. I would be surprized if they sold for less than $150 this time. It isn't over until it's over, as they say. The only reason for prices may be moderate right now is it's vacation time. Have you watched the PDP-8's. It's now the 3rd in the last 3 weeks or so, the first two have not sold under $500 and this one is at $200 last time I looked. The PDP-11s sold for same amount almost. Watch how the UNIBUS and QBUS SCSI cards trade. Over $200 minimum. Who are the buyers? Some have so high feedback numbers that I'm afraid those are traders who try to make money out of this. In conclusion, I really think that newspaper features about vintage computing and conferences with lots of publicity do hurt the vintage computer hobbyist because they invite people who merely have money to spend on a fad. regards -Gunther Steve Robertson wrote: > > >Some more interesting Ebay madness is that some nice VAX systems are going > >quite cheaply. There is a 4000/300 on Ebay for less than $20, the CPU alone > >is worth that, and if it has memory too... A 4000/200 in the nice BA215 > >case sold recently for $60. So you see the market works as you would > >expect, these things come out of the woodwork and the prices on ebay > >reflect the increased availability. > > > >--Chuck > > > > Seems to me that prices on eBay have dropped over the last year or so. This > could be because of the depressed economy or the fact that some of us > collectors are becoming "saturated". > > I've certainly slowed down on my purchases. Nowadays, a computer's gotta be > really cheap before I'll buy it. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 3 17:59:28 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <3B6A6A99.8747B19E@tinyworld.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Aug 03, 2001 10:10:49 AM Message-ID: <200108032259.SAA32161@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Paul Williams once stated: > > The Letters page of these magazines are as interesting as some of the > articles. Of course, when we're talking about over 20 years ago in a > hobbyist magazine, the letter-writers of one issue were quite likely to > write articles in the next. > > Two extracts for you. > > >From David C. Broughton of Northwood, Middlesex, in the November 1978 > issue: > > Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: > > "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory > which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes > to zero." ORG 0 ENTRY0 DI ; disable interrupts LD BC,$0000 ; value to fill mem with LD SP,$0008 ; start here NOP ; filler ENTRY1 PUSH BC ; save data RST 1 ; loop forever I probably mixed both 8080 and Z80 instructions here, but the references I have are rather spotty and mostly for the Z80 (but I think I only used common instructions---it's not a chip I've programmed much for). It only took me two hours to figure this out because you have to go through memory AND wipe it all out (which means you wipe out the program as you go) and I kept getting stuck on the fact that I couldn't quite clear all of memory (once the code to increment or decrement the pointer was wiped out, then you're stuck writing to the same location over and over and the 8080/Z80 don't really have a 16-bit move instruction) but once I started looking at PUSH/POP it suddenly hit me. -spc (It was actually quite fun 8-) From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Aug 3 18:07:57 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: ASR-33 References: <20010802164833.H17258@borg.org> Message-ID: <3B6B2ECD.8D6A0788@tiac.net> What have you got to trade? Kent Borg wrote: > Anyone know where I might find an ASR-33 Teletype (good condition, > reasonable price, etc.) in the Boston area? > > -kb, the Kent who started out on an ASR-33. From at258 at osfn.org Fri Aug 3 18:24:01 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: CRAY EL-98 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We just rescued a Cray J90 from the Washington, DC area. A Vicom came along with it. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Aug 3 18:22:59 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: HP Integral FS Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803192212.00a84110@mailhost.intellistar.net> Found this on E-bay. HP MODEL 207 9807A INTEGRAL PC Item # 1261307861 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 3 18:07:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: "Chris Kennedy" "RE: SunOS (er... Solaris)" (Aug 3, 12:30) References: Message-ID: <10108040007.ZM9168@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 3, 12:30, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Um, I've got a bunch of old 2.7 media. Let me know what > architecture you need and I'll either stuff the ISOs somewhere > for you to fetch or simply burn copies and ship them off to you. > -----Original Message----- > Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, > and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull Thanks very much, Chris. I'll email you privately to work out the best way to do this. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 3 18:24:39 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: SunOS (er... Solaris)" (Aug 3, 14:28) References: <200108032128.f73LSth19706@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10108040024.ZM9188@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 3, 14:28, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Pete wrote: > > Is Solaris 7 still available anywhere? My CDs seem to have gone walkabout, > > and it doesn't seem to be online anymore. > I don't believe Solaris 7 was ever available online, there was the $20 > hobbyist kit, which is kind of lame. Maybe it was 2.6 that was online, then? I don't remember; I did get what I think you're referring to as the hobbyist kit, though it didn't cost me $20 (it was a slightly different deal in the UK). I don't remember the details, but wasn't one version available for a short while to academic users (University staff) in source form? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Aug 3 18:31:26 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Where do you buy components? In-Reply-To: <200108032130.RAA12119@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010803163030.00b6de20@mail.azstarnet.com> At 05:30 PM 8/3/2001 -0400, you wrote: >There are some very nice electronics supply houses. Digi-key has an >impressive catalog. But it isn't too good for obsolete parts, and the >prices seem high. > >Jameco has a nice catalog, if they have what you want. > >I just bought all the chips (and some other components) to populate an >Exidy Sorcerer motherboard from Unicorn Electronics >(www.unicornelectronics.com). They had every single component I >ordered, including some chips long out of production. Prices seemed >good to me. And delivery was free and arrival was the same week. And >the packing was all very neat in chip tubes. > >I just wanted to mention this good experience, since I think it is >important to support businesses that support our hobby. Another vote for Unicorn. $20 minimum order and FREE SHIPPING, online ordering and fast shipment. They are great. Now if they only had those DS1233s I'm looking for... G From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 3 18:36:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) In-Reply-To: wanderer "Re: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS)" (Aug 3, 21:56) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3B6B1DF2.6DDE@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <10108040036.ZM9203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 3, 21:56, wanderer wrote: > Hmm, > > I have an 11/24 board here with a twice the size of the regular cpu > chips mounted in socket 4 & 5. Socket 3 is empty, while the standard > setup contains 3 chips in socket 1,2 & 3. Would this be the CIS chip? Yes, it is. It's six control chips mounted in one "double-width" 40-pin package. Socket 1 is the MMU, 2 is the Data and Control package of the CPU, 3 is the Floating Point. The CIS can go in 4+5 or 5+6, and 7 (or anything unused by CIS) is "spare". I don't know if there was ever any other "microms" for an 11/23 or 11/24. Anyone seen any? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Aug 3 18:38:38 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold t for $25 just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Ebay madness -> -> -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? -> -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 -> From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Aug 3 18:40:31 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Length of Cables for ESDI Hard Disk Drives References: <3B69657D.177EA4A2@idirect.com> <002501c11b74$3d563260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B6B366F.332C4FF7@idirect.com> >Richard Erlacher wrote: > You shouldn't be having a cable length problem with the ESDI drives. The fast > signals on the data cables (1 per drive) are driven with differential drivers > capable of considerable length at that bandwidth. In fact, the number 40 feet, > sticks in my recollection. The signals on the 34-conductor cable aren't > particularly fast, but aren't driven, typically, with drivers capable of what > the diff drivers can do. I doubt you use that much cable, that you'd see the > impact of cable length. If you really think it's the cable, I'd recommend > switching to a twisted pair ribbon from the typical flat ribbon. It won't help > much, and what you might try is simply using a different cable. They do fail > sometimes. > Dick Jerome Fine replies: I am trying again with the same overall configuration, but except for the same DK515-78 hard drives, the hardware is different in a different BA123. I am now up to 9 quad boards and it is still working. I expect to add 3 other quad boards soon. Except for the 20-pin data cables of which I have only four which are 4 feet long, right now I am using only 18 inch cables, but the 34-pin cable is a duplicate which is actually 8 feet long. After I have tested everything with 12 quad boards, I will put everything from the other BA123 into this one and see if it still works. If it fails on a specific board, that should identify the problem. Otherwise, it must be the BA123 box itself. The biggest part of the problem is that it is being done in the dining room where there is room to move. (Let's not get back to that problem!) And I have a deadline of the next time when my kids are coming for supper on Friday!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Aug 3 18:40:41 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 References: <535408539aaa.539aaa535408@ono.com> Message-ID: <3B6B3679.3F659D0F@idirect.com> >Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > > You can have up to 4 drives per controller, and up to 2 > > controllers per > > system. > Ok. This is good. Jerome Fine replies: I understand that the hardware limits the number of drives per controller to 4 drives. But, I can't see why there is a limit to the number of controllers. In RT-11, I am allowed to name a different device driver any name I wish. While I personally allow two controllers on my systems, having many more names would not be a problem so long as the CSR/VECTOR pair are unique and do not conflict with any other hardware values. Of course, these days I would not use an RL02 for anything but a transfer media. But ten years ago when an RQDXn was much more expensive, if I would have been given the RL02 controllers and drives, I might have used up to 16 RL02 drives on a single system. I am not sure where the cabinets would have gone or how much power it would have drawn or if it would have been beneficial, but it could have been done. Actually, just for a test, I presume that it might be a challenge to ask one of the emulator products to allow up to eight controllers and just for the fun configure a system with eight device drivers in RT-11? DL:, FA:, FB:, FC:, FD:, FE:, FF:, FG: and set up 32 container files. > > BTW, RD5x drives are usually seen as DU devices, not as DL ones. > Mmmm... This board treats one Mfm Hard Disk attached to it > like up to four DL drives, from DL0 to DL3. The drive must > be partitioned with one partition by drive emulated. That is > what can be deducted reading the (poor) info that could be > located in the Internet. Any controller can emulate any hardware. While an RQDX3 accepts only RD5x drives and makes them look like an MSCP device, in fact that is also an emulation - just as an VT100 emulates a VT100 terminal. Just because something is emulating itself or what it actually is is no less of an emulation. > We speak about one RD52. I suppose it could be divided in three > DLx emulated drives. When I used an RD52 on a DM01 from Emulex, I was usually able to state the actual number of cylinders, heads and sectors per track to produce 40 MBytes, i.e. a Quantum 540 hard disk drive could provide about 80,000 blocks of 512 bytes even though DEC allowed the RQDXn controllers to see 60,000 blocks. On that basis, if you actually have an RD52 that is being formatted by the controller, see if you are allowed to use four emulated RL02 drives. Also, just because DEC used 5 1/4" full height drives (RD5x) with RQDXn controllers to emulate MSCP hardware does not mean that is the only option. In fact, the Dilog use of an MFM hard drive to emulate RL02 drives (non-removeable of course) was just one of over a dozen different types of using some hardware to look like other hardware. Another example is a Sigma RQD11-EC quad Qbus ESDI controller which used ESDI hard drives to look like large MSCP hard drives. Dilog did this as well. There are also a number of Qbus host adapters which use SCSI hard drives and most (probably all) emulate MSCP "emulation". Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Aug 3 18:40:47 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Datasystems Design Board + RX33 floppies References: <539f13535932.535932539f13@ono.com> Message-ID: <3B6B367F.2ED4AE1B@idirect.com> >Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > Is there anybody out there (mainly in Europe) that could send > or purchase me one of this DSD monsters ? Jerome Fine replies: I don't know about the market in Europe or how available Qbus hardware is, but do you realize how much a DSD 880/30 weighs? My sore back says it is more than 50 lb. although I am sure the scale says it is somewhat less. Of course, that is the unit with ONE 8" hard drive that looks like 3 * RL02 and ONE 8" floppy drive that is compatible with a single RX02 floppy drive from DEC - in addition, the actual drive hardware is able to use double-sided media and if enhancements are made to the standard DEC device drivers, then the operating system can use both sides - which means that each floppy diskette has 1976 blocks instead of only 988 blocks. If the actual unit you mean is only the DSD 440, that is only the dual 8" floppy which is also RX02 compatible. I remember using the DSD 440 more than 20 years ago. The company I worked for back in 1978 had the DSD 440 for which two controllers had been purchased. One controller with that 26-pin cable came from a PDP-11/34. There was also a second cable available which came from a VT103. I guess what amazed me the most was that an identical floppy could boot RT-11 even though there were a very few but extremely significant differences in the instruction set for the PDP-11/34 CPU and an LSI-11/02 CPU. Of course, now that I have seen the actual code in RT-11 which takes care of those differences, I understand how it is done. BUT, back in 1978 I was very surprised. Sergio, why do you want the DSD 880/30? If you have a controller which emulates the RL02, why not use that? Better still, if you have an RD52, why not purchase an RQDX3? Perhaps you can even find one for free. If the only hardware that you had was an RL02 or a DSD 880/30, then I agree it is better than nothing. But given the choice, if you are going to acquire hardware, try and get an RQDX3 with either an RD52 or an RD54. I would recommend against getting an RD53 unless you already have one - if so, be sure that you don't rely on only one RD53 since these days they have a very high failure rate. I hope this answers some of your concerns, Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 3 18:48:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Messick, Gary wrote: > Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 Gets WHAT? Not all of us use a www browser for our e-mail. It would really help a lot to give a line or two identifying what you want us all to go look at. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From hansp at aconit.org Fri Aug 3 18:46:46 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <3B6A67E0.49EEE786@tinyworld.co.uk> <3B6A880E.68CA1567@aconit.org> <3B6B1F1B.DF32B2D4@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <3B6B37E6.CB55EF4C@aconit.org> Paul Williams wrote: > > Hans B Pufal wrote: > > I will dig out the article and scan it for you. > You're a star, Hans. It's a good job you're not in this room, because > I've just got back from the Beer Festival and I'd be wrapping my arms > around you and slurring "you're my besht mate, you are". You are right, it IS a good job I'm not in the room wth you ;-) Regards, -- HBP From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Aug 3 18:49:32 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6B2852.4BE57CF9@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Good points to it and bad points - it sucks if you're buying but great if you're selling. The first part of the year was bad, right around tax time but it's picking up again. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:40 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> Well, I haven't watched the szene until april/may this year, but -> I'm not too confident that prices are dropping. Actually I think -> we ought to keep a low profile in order to keep this classic computer -> stuff from becoming a fad. Things like newspaper features will -> eventually hurt us, because the one main issue with classic computer -> stuff is that it's rare. -> -> As Chuck mentioned the VAX 4000/300s on ebay their prices are up -> by now. I would be surprized if they sold for less than $150 this -> time. It isn't over until it's over, as they say. The only reason -> for prices may be moderate right now is it's vacation time. -> -> Have you watched the PDP-8's. It's now the 3rd in the last 3 weeks -> or so, the first two have not sold under $500 and this one is at -> $200 last time I looked. The PDP-11s sold for same amount almost. -> -> Watch how the UNIBUS and QBUS SCSI cards trade. Over $200 minimum. -> -> Who are the buyers? Some have so high feedback numbers that I'm -> afraid those are traders who try to make money out of this. -> -> In conclusion, I really think that newspaper features about vintage -> computing and conferences with lots of publicity do hurt the vintage -> computer hobbyist because they invite people who merely have money -> to spend on a fad. -> -> regards -> -Gunther -> -> -> Steve Robertson wrote: -> > -> > >Some more interesting Ebay madness is that some nice VAX -> systems are going -> > >quite cheaply. There is a 4000/300 on Ebay for less than $20, -> the CPU alone -> > >is worth that, and if it has memory too... A 4000/200 in the -> nice BA215 -> > >case sold recently for $60. So you see the market works as you would -> > >expect, these things come out of the woodwork and the prices on ebay -> > >reflect the increased availability. -> > > -> > >--Chuck -> > > -> > -> > Seems to me that prices on eBay have dropped over the last -> year or so. This -> > could be because of the depressed economy or the fact that some of us -> > collectors are becoming "saturated". -> > -> > I've certainly slowed down on my purchases. Nowadays, a -> computer's gotta be -> > really cheap before I'll buy it. -> > -> > _________________________________________________________________ -> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at -> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -> -> -- -> Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org -> Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care -> Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine -> tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org -> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 19:04:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: RE: Ebay madness (Russ Blakeman) References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold t for $25 > just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary > -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Ebay madness > -> > -> > -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > -> > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 Neat. The last one I saw went on eBay for well over a thousand dollars. Who's smoking that crack? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 18:39:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <003001c11bf6$a273b000$d300a8c0@MARKO> from "Marko Krejic" at Aug 3, 1 10:28:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 185 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/0b62bb5f/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 19:07:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: CRAY EL-98 In-Reply-To: Re: CRAY EL-98 (Merle K. Peirce) References: Message-ID: <15211.15538.544962.427759@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > We just rescued a Cray J90 from the Washington, DC area. A Vicom came > along with it. I'm quite shocked that I didn't hear about this machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 19:12:41 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! Message-ID: No, Apple Network Servers run AIX... They're from the days when IBM, Motorola, and Apple worked so closely on the PowerPC that the Apple Network Servers really did run AIX... Anyways, the front ends for Cray's, at least in the 80's, were VAXen, DEC had a deal with Cray to sell VAXen specifically as Cray front-ends. I gave all my Systems and Options catalogs away, but some of them did have the VAX front-end systems in them... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dkuhn at acsworld.net Fri Aug 3 19:21:47 2001 From: dkuhn at acsworld.net (David L Kuhn) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <00fd01c11c7b$737cd300$6787040c@compaq> Whoooooo, looks like a bargain for $25K. I'll take two! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold t for $25 > just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary > -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Ebay madness > -> > -> > -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > -> > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > -> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 19:22:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Will Jennings) References: Message-ID: <15211.16444.274451.594013@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Will Jennings wrote: > No, Apple Network Servers run AIX... They're from the days when IBM, > Motorola, and Apple worked so closely on the PowerPC that the Apple Network > Servers really did run AIX... Oh, neat! I never knew that. > Anyways, the front ends for Cray's, at least > in the 80's, were VAXen, DEC had a deal with Cray to sell VAXen specifically > as Cray front-ends. I gave all my Systems and Options catalogs away, but > some of them did have the VAX front-end systems in them... Are we talking about front-ends, or console processors? Earlier, Heinz made mention of the SPARC5 doing NFS...that's the console processor of a J90. Earlier Crays run as attached processors with front-end computers. The job runs on the front-end and it ships data to and from the backend at high speed as needed...users didn't "log into" the Cray directly. Today's Crays (and indeed going back about fifteen years or so) run Unicos (a Unix variant) which is a direct-login system...so there's no "front-end" in the old sense of the word. They do, however, use console processors...in the case of the J90, it's an unmodified Sun SPARC5 computer running Solaris (usually 2.4) which handles console operations. It communicates with another SPARC5...a VME64 board in the IOS card cage that netboots a special chunk of code (i.e. not SunOS or Solaris) that handles diags, initialization, booting, and runtime I/O for the Cray processor(s). Most Crays can have multiples of these systems, called IOSs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From pechter at bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com Fri Aug 3 19:26:03 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416C6@naomi.gcstech.net> from Phil Schilling at "Aug 3, 2001 05:11:24 pm" Message-ID: <200108040026.f740Q3301650@bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com> > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:18 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: SunOS (er... Solaris) > > > On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 03:37:29PM -0500, Phil Schilling wrote: > > I have the sparc/intel cd that I purchased, can I legally make iso for > you? > > mrbill could probably answer for us. > > Yeah - the "hobbyist/non-commercial" license covers all versions of Solaris. > Basically, as long as its less than 8 CPUs, and not being used for a > commercial > purpose, you can copy Solaris for your buddies. > > Bill (http://www.sunhelp.org) > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX > Are you sure. I never heard Sun offer it for versions before 2.6. Cool... Perhaps 2.6 may be a bit quicker on the Sparc2's. -Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 19:24:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Re: Ebay madness (David L Kuhn) References: <00fd01c11c7b$737cd300$6787040c@compaq> Message-ID: <15211.16558.124568.621772@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, David L Kuhn wrote: > Whoooooo, looks like a bargain for $25K. I'll take two! I wish eBay had a "wish bid" system...if the starting bid is Just Too Ridiculous, a non-binding "bid" that could be entered as an "in case you don't get any opening bids for this" situation. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From pechter at bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com Fri Aug 3 19:26:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <15211.8279.344737.705336@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 3, 2001 06:06:15 pm" Message-ID: <200108040026.f740Qqd01663@bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com> > On August 3, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > And Apple offered software to allow a Mac to remotely administer Apple > > Network Servers, which run AIX, through a Control Panel-like interface. > > You mean A/UX? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD Nah. The Apple Network Server Power PC boxes run an Apple version of IBM's AIX. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 3 19:36:12 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6B2852.4BE57CF9@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803172903.025907a0@209.185.79.193> At 05:40 PM 8/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Well, I haven't watched the szene until april/may this year, but >I'm not too confident that prices are dropping. Actually I think >we ought to keep a low profile in order to keep this classic computer >stuff from becoming a fad. Things like newspaper features will >eventually hurt us, because the one main issue with classic computer >stuff is that it's rare. No, its not rare yet, its just hard to find. One of the things ebay has done is bring a lot of stuff out into the open. When I got my first PDP-8 I thought this was perhaps the most unusual event in the world, when I got my fourth I realized that in fact they are out there but one has to look for them. >As Chuck mentioned the VAX 4000/300s on ebay their prices are up >by now. I would be surprized if they sold for less than $150 this >time. It isn't over until it's over, as they say. The only reason >for prices may be moderate right now is it's vacation time. The 4000/200 was actually closed at $60. Where as a few months ago just the CPU card (a KA660) would have fetched $100 - $150. Item 1259494060 (a 4000/300) closed for $51. Prior to this I hadn't seen a 4000/300 go for less than $300. That is prices coming down. >Have you watched the PDP-8's. It's now the 3rd in the last 3 weeks >or so, the first two have not sold under $500 and this one is at >$200 last time I looked. The PDP-11s sold for same amount almost. Except that last year a PDP-8 would fetch $2000 now it can't break $1000. Again, how many people in the world want a "real" PDP-8? Not as many as you would think. >Watch how the UNIBUS and QBUS SCSI cards trade. Over $200 minimum. This becomes a bit different since SCSI cards are highly leveraged, not only do they let you use more modern (and currently dirt cheap) drives on your classic machine they often enhance the number of OS options you have. That puts them in demand. >Who are the buyers? Some have so high feedback numbers that I'm >afraid those are traders who try to make money out of this. Well we know that some of them are dealers. Mitch from Keyways buys things on Ebay for resale as does "uechi." >In conclusion, I really think that newspaper features about vintage >computing and conferences with lots of publicity do hurt the vintage >computer hobbyist because they invite people who merely have money >to spend on a fad. I have to agree with Sellam here, if it gives the perception that lots of people want to own one of these machines then it is "good" because more people will save them. --Chuck From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 3 20:43:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <3B6A6A99.8747B19E@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> Paul Williams skrev: >The Letters page of these magazines are as interesting as some of the >articles. Of course, when we're talking about over 20 years ago in a >hobbyist magazine, the letter-writers of one issue were quite likely to >write articles in the next. It's sad how utterly worthless PCW had become ten years later. >Two extracts for you. >>From David C. Broughton of Northwood, Middlesex, in the November 1978 >issue: > Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: > "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory > which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes > to zero." Seemed like a piece of cake until it dawned upon me that the program has got to be stored somewhere. =/ >>From P.F.T. Tilsley of Loughborough, Leics., in the May 1979 issue: > The choice of the Z80 for a home system at this time is perhaps a > little rash because of the choice of 16 bit processors making > their appearance. A better choice would probably be the Z8000 > which is due to be available in the next few months. >Three years later, I still bought a Z80 system. Ho hum. Well, the definition of a home system had probably changed a lot during those three years. 1981 home systems were probably a lot cheaper and less involved than a 1978 one. And with a different target group, too, I think. Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other Z8000 based systems? It seems odd to me how a company which was a giant in the 8-bit market didn't even make a dent in the 16/32-bit one. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet sua.ath.cx, port 42512. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Aug 3 19:53:12 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I can't see an 8088, even pre-MSDOS/IBM, going for over $150 regardless. I felt good about getting $25 for mine considering the markup from what I paid for it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:04 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> -> -> On August 3, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold -> t for $25 -> > just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary -> > -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: Ebay madness -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? -> > -> -> > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 -> -> Neat. The last one I saw went on eBay for well over a thousand -> dollars. Who's smoking that crack? ;) -> -> -Dave -> -> -- -> Dave McGuire -> Laurel, MD -> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Aug 3 19:53:13 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K ?? eBay doesn't care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice posting fee for that. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:46 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> On August 3, Messick, Gary wrote: -> > Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? -> > -> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 -> -> It sure doesn't hurt to gamble. I personally admire his audacity. -> -> Some stupid person with way too much money might buy it, having read -> about the "classic computer craze" in the Wall Street Journal or -> something. -> -> Capitalizing on the stupid might not boost one's karma, but I -> personally have very little patience for the stupid...so more power to -> the guy. I hope he gets his money. -> -> It does irritate me just a little, though, because I've wanted an H8 -> very badly nearly all my life, and will likely NEVER get one if this -> one sells at that price. -> -> -Dave -> -> -- -> Dave McGuire -> Laurel, MD -> From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com Fri Aug 3 20:16:47 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Z8000 In-Reply-To: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Aug 4, 2001 02:43:18 am" Message-ID: <200108040116.f741GmE01883@bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com> > Paul Williams skrev: > > >The Letters page of these magazines are as interesting as some of the > >articles. Of course, when we're talking about over 20 years ago in a > >hobbyist magazine, the letter-writers of one issue were quite likely to > >write articles in the next. > > It's sad how utterly worthless PCW had become ten years later. > > >Two extracts for you. > > >>From David C. Broughton of Northwood, Middlesex, in the November 1978 > >issue: > > > Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: > > > "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory > > which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes > > to zero." > > Seemed like a piece of cake until it dawned upon me that the program has got > to be stored somewhere. =/ > > >>From P.F.T. Tilsley of Loughborough, Leics., in the May 1979 issue: > > > The choice of the Z80 for a home system at this time is perhaps a > > little rash because of the choice of 16 bit processors making > > their appearance. A better choice would probably be the Z8000 > > which is due to be available in the next few months. > > >Three years later, I still bought a Z80 system. Ho hum. > > Well, the definition of a home system had probably changed a lot during those > three years. 1981 home systems were probably a lot cheaper and less involved > than a 1978 one. And with a different target group, too, I think. > > Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other Z8000 > based systems? It seems odd to me how a company which was a giant in the 8-bit > market didn't even make a dent in the 16/32-bit one. The Z8000 included the Zilog (later Exxon Office Systems) Zeus office automation Unix boxes... They were SystemIII and used by the US Government's Internal Revenue Service through 1993 or so. They later adopted Pyramid multiprocessor RISC boxes. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 3 20:19:21 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 4 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: > > "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory > > which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes > > to zero." > Seemed like a piece of cake until it dawned upon me that the program has got > to be stored somewhere. =/ PUSH is a good way to do it, BUT, ... To clear ALL memory, the PUSH instruction must be at location 0 (at least by the end of the program). Otherwise, the program code will be zero'd out before it is done. Can you do it WITHOUT self-modifying code? > Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other Z8000 > based systems? I think that Olivetti did one. Did anyone ever build a 65000 based system? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 3 20:23:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm. Can the folks who want Tony to scan stuff arrange to ship Chuck's scanner to him? > > But do you think it possible for you to scan the schematics? On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas I have no scanner (nor any way to display the output of one), so I > don't think I can help with this :-( On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Does anyone in the S.F. Bay area need or want a UMAX 600DPI/30bit > color/flat bed/SCSI interface scanner? Comes with scanner, software (PC Win > 3.1/Win 95/Win NT), cables, terminator, and SCSI card (ISA). This was my > scanner of choice until I upgraded to a USB based scanner. I can make you a > good deal ($10 and its all yours, bwa-hahaha) or come by Saturday to our > garage sale and bargain us down :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 20:23:06 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: RE: Ebay madness (Russ Blakeman) References: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15211.20090.678494.654199@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I can't see an 8088, even pre-MSDOS/IBM, going for over $150 regardless. I > felt good about getting $25 for mine considering the markup from what I paid > for it. It's an 8080, not an 8088...and WAY pre-MSDOS. Tell you what...next time you one, I'll give you $300 for it. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 20:28:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Z8000 In-Reply-To: Z8000 (Bill Pechter) References: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> <200108040116.f741GmE01883@bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <15211.20435.236248.890524@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Bill Pechter wrote: > The Z8000 included the Zilog (later Exxon Office Systems) Zeus office > automation Unix boxes... > > They were SystemIII and used by the US Government's Internal Revenue > Service through 1993 or so. > > They later adopted Pyramid multiprocessor RISC boxes. I had one of those for a while, about ten years ago. A Model 41, the big one. I really, REALLY liked that machine. It was quite respectably zippy, but had no networking capability whatsoever. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 3 20:58:50 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: from "Bill Pechter" at Aug 03, 2001 06:08:55 PM Message-ID: <200108040158.f741wok31195@shell1.aracnet.com> > I was hoping Sun would open up 2.6 and later to the net like they did > with 8... but it appears either licensing issues stop them or they > are too interested in moving the new hardware. I don't think they see any reason to. However, I must confess to rather likeing 2.6 as I've got a bunch of S-Bus cards that won't run on higher (both 100Mbit Ethernet and SCSI cards). Still I was able to come up with enough HW to be able to run 8 on my SS20. > 8 cost me $100 even though I can't run it on my current hardware. > The server version of 7 with stuff like Solstice Disk Suite (in the 8 I > have) would cost over $3k... (as an upgrade to the SunOS license these > Sparc2's had). The desktop Sparc version is over $300 for the license > and $100 for the media. Why not just get the stuff on eBay? I bought my 8 kit on eBay for about $30-40 less than Sun wanted. It was still in the shrinkwrap. > I guess every Sparc sysadmin must've socked away sparc CD's from work to > support their home Suns... 8-) (or they're running FreeBSD and > Open/NetBSD) at home. OpenBSD seems to work pretty good. I've got it on some of my Sparcs at the moment. In the case of my SparcBook 3GS, it's the only thing I've got to run on it :^( > Meanwhile I just picked up a 21 inch Trinitron refurb monitor which > will handle BNC inputs so I can switch it between Vax and Sparc and PC. Nice! While a Sparc is almost usable on a 17", you really need a 19-21" :^) I've got to admit though, I've not even bothered to hook a monitor back up to my SS20, it's more convenient to either telnet in, or bring up its desktop on my Mac (same with my main VMS systems). Zane From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 3 20:15:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 3, Messick, Gary wrote: > > Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > It sure doesn't hurt to gamble. I personally admire his audacity. Audacity? Try stupidity. This guy is a complete jackass. Where did he pull this number from? (You know where my guess is :) He's also stuck himself for the listing fees eBay will charge him. If I'm not mistaken, the listing fee is based on the starting bid, no? > Some stupid person with way too much money might buy it, having read > about the "classic computer craze" in the Wall Street Journal or > something. Nobody is that stupid. Even the littlest research will reveal nothing historically significant about this machine (i.e. not linked to founding Microsoft). No sane person would sink large amounts of money into something they knew little about on speculation. > Capitalizing on the stupid might not boost one's karma, but I > personally have very little patience for the stupid...so more power to > the guy. I hope he gets his money. I know he will end up being a jackass with an H8 and a big eBay listing fee. > It does irritate me just a little, though, because I've wanted an H8 > very badly nearly all my life, and will likely NEVER get one if this > one sells at that price. Don't worry, it won't change a thing. Even an Apple-1 wouldn't sell for that much today. Offer the guy $200 once this auction is over (but only if it is in good, working order and has all the manuals). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 3 20:25:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6B2852.4BE57CF9@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Well, I haven't watched the szene until april/may this year, but I'm > not too confident that prices are dropping. Actually I think we ought > to keep a low profile in order to keep this classic computer stuff > from becoming a fad. Things like newspaper features will eventually > hurt us, because the one main issue with classic computer stuff is > that it's rare. It just gets more people involved, which means more people searching for the same amount of stuff. Isn't that what you really mean? :) > In conclusion, I really think that newspaper features about vintage > computing and conferences with lots of publicity do hurt the vintage > computer hobbyist because they invite people who merely have money to > spend on a fad. Ok, I won't advertise the VCF anymore so that the existing hobbyists won't know about it. In fact, I'm going underground with it. Let's turn this into a Secret Society so that we can hoard all the computers for ourselves. I'll start working on a Secret Handshake. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From sieler at allegro.com Fri Aug 3 21:17:59 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: CRAY EL-98 In-Reply-To: <"f05001904b78fa800fa25(a)(091)64.157.59.103(093)*"@MHS> References: <"f05001903b78f9ee4d64b(a)(091)64.157.59.103(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <3B6AF8E7.17922.258D7EBD@localhost> Re: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261319145 > > > Here's a rather unusual auction on eBay...a CRAY EL-98, > >supposedly functional, with OS backup tapes, and which supposedly > >came from Apple. If for nothing else, it's interesting for the > >pictures the seller has posted. I remember Carl Sassenrath telling me that he used a Cray while at Apple (post-Amiga, so that wasn't being done to design the first Mac, anyway). IIRC, they were simulating instruction sets or hardware with it? (I wonder: Power PC?) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 3 20:27:37 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15211.16558.124568.621772@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I wish eBay had a "wish bid" system...if the starting bid is Just > Too Ridiculous, a non-binding "bid" that could be entered as an "in > case you don't get any opening bids for this" situation. ...or you could e-mail him with an offer :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From sieler at allegro.com Fri Aug 3 21:19:16 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200108031213.f73CDS695315@bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3B6AF934.812.258EABA7@localhost> Re: > Actually, the Foonly ran a variant of TENEX, which was the predecessor to > TOPS-20. TOPS-10 was from DEC, and TENEX from BBN (Bolt, Beranek, Newman)... did DEC acquire TENEX from BBN? Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Aug 3 21:27:38 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: what the hell. In-Reply-To: <20010725133340.A2228893@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.20010803222018.00bd5660@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:33 PM 7/25/01 -0500, Dan Wright said something like: >Well, even though I've already posted a couple times, I too am new to the list >and thought I'd chime in. I live and work in champaign-urbana, IL, and mostly >collect old UNIX machines -- I have a couple HP 735's, an HP 425/t, HP 300, >sun sparc 2, 5, and 20, an RS/6000, and some other crap. Oooo yeah, I got a >textronix model 31 electronic calculator recently, but haven't done anything "Oooo yeah" is right! Nice rather rare catch Dan! I have one and I believe a British list member has one too, IIRC. I have a manual in French (French Canada) ;-\ Have only one tape. Can't imagine where to find any other tapes commercially as it's decidedly proprietary. Came out of one of the IBM-Endicott facilities back in the mid-80's when they did a bunch of "downsizing". Still had some sort of test program on the tape which helped me work out much of the programming syntax, etc. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Aug 3 21:31:45 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> Message-ID: <200108040231.WAA25412@world.std.com> I do have one of the 11/23+ boards with both FPP and CIS... and no, I'm not looking to get rid of it. But rest easy, there are examples of it still in existance and still working... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 21:41:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Re: Ebay madness (Sellam Ismail) References: <15211.16558.124568.621772@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15211.24776.494516.182867@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 3, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I wish eBay had a "wish bid" system...if the starting bid is Just > > Too Ridiculous, a non-binding "bid" that could be entered as an "in > > case you don't get any opening bids for this" situation. > > ...or you could e-mail him with an offer :) I think I might. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From sieler at allegro.com Fri Aug 3 21:37:44 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3B6AFD88.10661.259F95EB@localhost> > > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > Neat. The last one I saw went on eBay for well over a thousand > dollars. Who's smoking that crack? ;) eBay item 1201705728 - Heathkit H-8 Computer w/16K $404.00 (reserve met) eBay item 1242494415 - Superb 1977 Heathkit H8+H9 with manuals! GBP 343.00 (approx. $474.15 ) eBay item 1245865102 Vintage Heathkit H8 Computer GBP 118.88 (approx. $166.57) eBay item 1249920339 Heathkit H8 Computer-Complete-11 Manuals $504.00 eBay item 1252795126 HEATHKIT H8, H9 Antique Computer OLD!!!! $383.88 The last four are still viewable on eBay. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 21:45:58 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: RE: Ebay madness (Stan Sieler) References: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3B6AFD88.10661.259F95EB@localhost> Message-ID: <15211.25062.504442.865938@phaduka.neurotica.com> Yup, I'd say $25 was leaving money on the table. -Dave On August 3, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > > > Neat. The last one I saw went on eBay for well over a thousand > > dollars. Who's smoking that crack? ;) > > eBay item 1201705728 - Heathkit H-8 Computer w/16K > $404.00 (reserve met) > > eBay item 1242494415 - Superb 1977 Heathkit H8+H9 with manuals! > GBP 343.00 (approx. $474.15 ) > > eBay item 1245865102 Vintage Heathkit H8 Computer > GBP 118.88 (approx. $166.57) > > eBay item 1249920339 Heathkit H8 Computer-Complete-11 Manuals > $504.00 > > eBay item 1252795126 HEATHKIT H8, H9 Antique Computer OLD!!!! > $383.88 > > The last four are still viewable on eBay. > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mbg at world.std.com Fri Aug 3 21:56:09 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:58 2005 Subject: DEC Doc's Wanted (was: Re: Wanted: Old issues of DEC Professional) Message-ID: <200108040256.WAA00686@world.std.com> >None that I'm willing to part with, I'm also looking for these, "RSTS >Professional", "Digital Technical Journal", and any other magazines DEC >put out. Although DTJ was a DEC publication, RSTS professional, VAX professional and DEC professional were not... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 3 21:57:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <002b01c11c91$402fe1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You have an idea that works, there, Sellam. I've bought a few items on exactly that basis. Unfortunately, they're things I didn't want terribly, so I wasn't even tempted to meet the "first bid" or reserve price. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I wish eBay had a "wish bid" system...if the starting bid is Just > > Too Ridiculous, a non-binding "bid" that could be entered as an "in > > case you don't get any opening bids for this" situation. > > ...or you could e-mail him with an offer :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From fwhite at pobox.com Fri Aug 3 21:59:06 2001 From: fwhite at pobox.com (Fredric White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: VCF East, GT-40, GT-42, GT-62 brochures, Nova software Message-ID: <15211.25850.350000.3093@gargle.gargle.HOWL> First I'd like to publicly thank Sellam for putting on VCF East. I had a blast, met many great people and played with some truly cool machines. I took a few photos which I've posted on a new web-site- in-progress: http://d116.com/vcf/east/1.0/ Now that I've got lots of web space, I installed scans of the GT-40, GT-42, and GT-62 brochures I have: http://d116.com/dec/gt/ Also, I made a directory with the Nova/DCC software I have on disk at the moment, including the buggy spacewar I was running at VCF: http://d116.com/dcc/sw/ I just brought this site up a few hours ago. My first visitor? The code red worm! 66.25.24.156 - - [03/Aug/2001:22:56:29 -0400] "GET /default.ida?NNNNN... Fredric From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 3 22:04:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: OT: HVD SCSI controller References: Message-ID: <003701c11c92$2622c3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Corporate Systems Center www.corpsys.com occasionally runs specials on diffy controllers. I really dislike doing business with them, since I've repeatedly found them to be dishonest, in that they misrepresent what they sell, but they have occasionally advertised what you're after at prices lower than what you mentioned (not the $20, though) If you hit the newsgroup you may run onto one. They'll offer them cheaply, but if you beg, they'll double their prices. The diffy version of the AHA2940 (to test stuff in the PC) is the AHA-2944 but even when there aren't any bids, the price isn't lower than for a single-ended 2940. That's usually somewhat over $30. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:27 AM Subject: RE: OT: HVD SCSI controller > > > Price was about $20/30 from a surplus house. I've seen them > > > anywhere from $20 or so up over $500 for the fancy external one. > > > > If you could mention the manufacturer... The places > > I looked (referenced in the scsi faq) were $500 for > > the bare internal version (50 pin) up to $795 for the > > external version (68 pin LVD support). That was where > > any price was mentioned at all (I figure the other places > > were in the "If you to ask..." league). > > > > I would need a 68 to 68 pin converter, LVD not required. > > OK, as a final follow up to this, to my amazement, I just got > a 68 pin HVD to 68 pin SE converter (guaranteed!) on ebay for > $20 plus $5 shipping. > > Bill Sudbrink (who started this thread) > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 3 22:07:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com><3B6AFD88.10661.259F95EB@localhost> <15211.25062.504442.865938@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <005101c11c92$9771b8e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "Stan Sieler" Cc: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > > Yup, I'd say $25 was leaving money on the table. > > -Dave > > On August 3, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > > > > > Neat. The last one I saw went on eBay for well over a thousand > > > dollars. Who's smoking that crack? ;) > > > > eBay item 1201705728 - Heathkit H-8 Computer w/16K > > $404.00 (reserve met) > > > > eBay item 1242494415 - Superb 1977 Heathkit H8+H9 with manuals! > > GBP 343.00 (approx. $474.15 ) > > > > eBay item 1245865102 Vintage Heathkit H8 Computer > > GBP 118.88 (approx. $166.57) > > > > eBay item 1249920339 Heathkit H8 Computer-Complete-11 Manuals > > $504.00 > > > > eBay item 1252795126 HEATHKIT H8, H9 Antique Computer OLD!!!! > > $383.88 > > > > The last four are still viewable on eBay. > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 3 22:10:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <15211.15353.764400.230478@phaduka.neurotica.com><3B6AFD88.10661.259F95EB@localhost> <15211.25062.504442.865938@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <006101c11c92$fc6895c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A big factor is the relative completeness of the unit. If a collector is supposed to want it, it must be really complete, with manuals, brocheures, diskettes, etc. A cheapie might be incomplete and non-fucntional as well. Collectors don't always demand the units be functional, but they do demand they be complete, at least so there are no obviously missing parts. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "Stan Sieler" Cc: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > > Yup, I'd say $25 was leaving money on the table. > > -Dave > > On August 3, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > > > > > Neat. The last one I saw went on eBay for well over a thousand > > > dollars. Who's smoking that crack? ;) > > > > eBay item 1201705728 - Heathkit H-8 Computer w/16K > > $404.00 (reserve met) > > > > eBay item 1242494415 - Superb 1977 Heathkit H8+H9 with manuals! > > GBP 343.00 (approx. $474.15 ) > > > > eBay item 1245865102 Vintage Heathkit H8 Computer > > GBP 118.88 (approx. $166.57) > > > > eBay item 1249920339 Heathkit H8 Computer-Complete-11 Manuals > > $504.00 > > > > eBay item 1252795126 HEATHKIT H8, H9 Antique Computer OLD!!!! > > $383.88 > > > > The last four are still viewable on eBay. > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > > From donm at cts.com Fri Aug 3 22:20:05 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Messick, Gary wrote: > > Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > Gets WHAT? > Not all of us use a www browser for our e-mail. It would really help a > lot to give a line or two identifying what you want us all to go look at. Thanks Fred, I'm sure others feel that way also. I know I do! - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Aug 3 23:24:32 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: sound "card" for the big VAX :-) Message-ID: <3B6B7900.81C7D310@aurora.regenstrief.org> Just in case you have a TU78, have fun: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:sNZF1nPeHg8:www.mit.edu/afs/sipb/user/jtkohl/hacks/makesong/+TU78+tape&hl=en -Gunther ---------------------------------------------------------------- Index of /afs/sipb/user/jtkohl/hacks/makesong Name Last modified Size Description Parent Directory 11-Jun-91 14:25 - NOTES 07-Sep-89 17:39 1k Songs/ 07-Sep-89 17:39 - makesong 07-Sep-89 17:39 1k "Makesong"* is a shell script which turns your TU78 tape-drive into a musical marvel... It is just a quick hack, so do not expect anything close to perfection. The numbers found in the "NOTES" file are approximate and could be a lot better, but I don't have the time to do it. See the example songs in the Songs/ directory... Format for a song file should be obvious from the examples... Songfiles are run through the C Preprocessor (/lib/cpp), so feel free to include comments, #defines, #includes, etc. Improvements/Bugs - the values for the notes should be tuned - more notes should be added - rests should be implemented a different way - as it stands, higher-pitched notes are shorter in duration than lower notes - the correct value for DURATION (now a constant 1000) should be a function of pitch. - different length notes (whole, half, quarter, etc.) should also be added - something other than /etc/termcap should be used as dd's if=, preferably something with unlimited size -- maybe /usr/ucb/yes "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" or a variant - due to the implementation of the MUSIC variable, there is probably a sh-imposed limit on the number of notes in a Songfile Interesting effects may be achieved by combining 'mt fsf' with 'mt bsf' commands - 'bsf' produces a richer "timber" of sound than does 'fsf'. Please let me know about changes and improvements you make -- also any songs you teach your TU78 to play! :-) [* Note, "makesong" works the tape drive pretty hard, so be nice. . .] Enjoy! Craig Fri Aug 25 11:12:17 CDT 1989 --- Craig D. Rice UNIX Systems Specialist cdr@stolaf.edu Academic Computer Center, St. Olaf College +1 507 663-3631 Northfield, MN 55057 USA -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org Subject: sound "card" for the VAX :-) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:22:48 -0500 Size: 5942 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010803/37fe7387/nsmailK8.mht From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Aug 3 23:29:42 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <00fd01c11c7b$737cd300$6787040c@compaq> <15211.16558.124568.621772@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3B6B7A36.12D0BE49@aurora.regenstrief.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > I wish eBay had a "wish bid" system...if the starting bid is Just > Too Ridiculous, a non-binding "bid" that could be entered as an "in > case you don't get any opening bids for this" situation. You know how that works don't you? You watch the item and the minute it's over you drop seller a mail suggeting you price or just some warm words asking what's he doing next. It may work. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Aug 3 23:40:52 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <3B6B7CD4.3078F2D6@aurora.regenstrief.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Ok, I won't advertise the VCF anymore so that the existing hobbyists won't > know about it. In fact, I'm going underground with it. Let's turn this > into a Secret Society so that we can hoard all the computers for > ourselves. > > I'll start working on a Secret Handshake. Hey, I hope I didn't offend you. If you have a different opinion, that's O.K. Chuck is right, the stuff may be out ther and ebay is a great flea market where it shows up. I was just worried about an exploding demand. I don't know what's right. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ernestls at home.com Sat Aug 4 00:44:06 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <200108010139.VAA20855@world.std.com> Message-ID: I think that I read in one of the articles about VCF east that Sellam thought that there might be 500 serious collectors. I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like that. I was just curious to know if that number (whatever it was) is approximately correct? How do you define "serious collector?" Is it by number of machines a collector has? Would someone who has a handful of very rare computers qualify as serious? What if someone spent years doing an educated hunt for just one particular system that no one else has, and found it. Would they be a serious collector? Or is it based on the kind of computer being collected -like DEC vs. Apple, etc.? I'm interested in peoples opinions on this. Also, this post is NOT about Sellam's exact quote, it's about the idea behind it. Ernest From engdahl at cle.ab.com Sat Aug 4 01:18:25 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: How to get an M7554 (KDJ11-SD) working as a PDP-11 Message-ID: <003e01c11cad$48779140$37809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I've figured out most of what you need to know to get an M7554 board working as a PDP-11/53 CPU, including the console pinout, most of the jumpers, and how to burn ROMs for the M7554-SD. It's all written down here: http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/KDJ11.htm -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl From engdahl at cle.ab.com Sat Aug 4 01:19:38 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: telnet interface for simh Message-ID: <003f01c11cad$71951480$37809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I've written a telnet interface to simh, so you can use your telnet client as a VT100 emulator for whatever you have running under simh. It is described on this page: http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/software.htm -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Aug 4 01:10:36 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <15211.8279.344737.705336@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 06:06:15PM -0400 References: <200108032123.f73LNAV19426@shell1.aracnet.com> <200108032152.OAA12956@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <15211.8279.344737.705336@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010804011036.B7314@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 06:06:15PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Network Servers, which run AIX, through a Control Panel-like interface. > You mean A/UX? Nope, the Apple Network Servers were basically Apple-badged RS/6000s. See www.apple-history.com. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Aug 4 01:12:36 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: HP Integral FS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803192212.00a84110@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:22:59PM -0400 References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803192212.00a84110@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20010804011236.C7314@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:22:59PM -0400, joe wrote: > Found this on E-bay. > HP MODEL 207 9807A INTEGRAL PC Item # 1261307861 Gone. I love "buy it now". 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 4 01:43:33 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: References: <200108010139.VAA20855@world.std.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803233535.024089a0@209.185.79.193> At 10:44 PM 8/3/01 -0700, Ernest wrote: >I think that I read in one of the articles about VCF east that Sellam >thought that there might be 500 serious collectors....I'm interested >in peoples opinions on this. Also, this post is NOT about >Sellam's exact quote, it's about the idea behind it. The number certainly "feels" right. It is a fairly small community. Go to a few VCF type things and you'll see the same bunch of folks. There is certainly the question "What is a 'serious' collector?" and one cannot easily define that term. In my opinion a serious collector is someone who does the actual work behind researching a particular aspect of computers. Then they collect artifacts that are relevant to that research. Just like art collectors will focus on a particular artist or period, serious computer collectors will focus on a particular machine, technology, or some similar aspect. Casual collectors are people who are unwilling to throw out anything, so they have developed a "collection" of a bunch of old computers, but by the same token they've never gone out and bought anything after the manufacturer was out of business and/or not supporting their stuff anymore. If you are the original owner (or someone in your immediate family is the original owner) of all the stuff in your collection then you are a casual collector. Speculative collectors don't know anything about the machines they have collected except what the last one sold for on Ebay or at some other place. The fact that they are trading in computers is more a coincidence with their perception that computers will appreciate faster than the inflation rate than it is because they actually love computers. Of course in the commercial hardware there is a group of people who have to support "old" machines and they don't collect so much as stock spares. They may or may not appreciate the machines they buy and sell, generally they are pretty knowledgable about them. --Chuck From family.entwisle at btinternet.com Sat Aug 4 02:25:04 2001 From: family.entwisle at btinternet.com (Duncan Entwisle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <007901c11cb6$9573bba0$0200a8c0@at.home> Ah, have you considered it might be a mistake? How so I hear you cry? Have you ever mistyped a comma rather than a period when entering a number in Ebay, and then (stupidly) forgotten to check the number before continuing? I have :-) I then had hyperventolated (sp?) while I tried to figure out how to retract my bid! For example: 30,00 = 3000, not 30.00 250,00 = 25000, not 250.00 So 250.00 might be high for some, but no where near as bad as 25000! Cheers, Duncan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:38 AM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold t for $25 > just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary > -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Ebay madness > -> > -> > -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > -> > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > -> > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Aug 4 02:41:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <20010804011036.B7314@mrbill.net> from Bill Bradford at "Aug 4, 1 01:10:36 am" Message-ID: <200108040741.AAA12714@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Network Servers, which run AIX, through a Control Panel-like interface. > > You mean A/UX? > > Nope, the Apple Network Servers were basically Apple-badged RS/6000s. Not really, more like bizarre 9500s. They're Power Macs, but they have a different SCSI-2 chipset and video hardware, and use strange CPU cards. Still great machines. stockholm, this server, is an ANS 500/200. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I can't walk a mile in their shoes. They smell funny. ---------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Aug 4 01:39:51 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6B2852.4BE57CF9@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: Message-ID: >Well, I haven't watched the szene until april/may this year, but >I'm not too confident that prices are dropping. Actually I think >we ought to keep a low profile in order to keep this classic computer >stuff from becoming a fad. Things like newspaper features will >eventually hurt us, because the one main issue with classic computer >stuff is that it's rare. Take a big step back and look at us, we are half way to the loony bin for collecting this stuff. Old computers are NOT an investment opportunity, and nobody normal is going to start thinking they are from a few human interest stories. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Aug 4 03:07:52 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <3B6A6A99.8747B19E@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010804005859.00c24220@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 10:10 AM 8/3/01 +0100, Paul Williams wrote: >... > Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: > > "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory > which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes > to zero." ORG 0010h LXI SP, 0000h LXI H, 0000h PCHL ORG 0000h PUSH H PCHL start running at 0010h. It sets SP and HL to 0000h, then jumps to 0000h. The code at 0000h pushes HL; the first time, it cause 0FFFFh and 0FFFEh to be written to 00h. PCHL is a one byte opcode that jumps back to 0000h. I guess RST 0 would work too. Eventually, 0003 and 0002 are written, so far so good. Then in the last iteration, 0001 and 0000 are written. The final PCHL may or may not execute, depending how the 8080 overlaps fetch and execute for that pair of instructions. Either way, it works. Everything after that is NOPs, and PC just goes around and around... It took about 60 seconds to figure out this puzzle. It took about 10 minutes to write it up and make sure it works. Next! ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From hansp at aconit.org Sat Aug 4 03:32:29 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" References: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B6BB31D.16819D49@aconit.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other Z8000 > based systems? It seems odd to me how a company which was a giant in the 8-bit > market didn't even make a dent in the 16/32-bit one. Olivetti made one IIRC it was the M21 - still looking for one here in France..... -- HBP From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 4 04:01:14 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Aug 03, 2001 06:19:21 PM Message-ID: <200108040901.FAA32665@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" once stated: > > On 4 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > Here is a little puzzle to test your readers' 8080 machine ingenuity: > > > "Imagine you possess an 8080 with 64K bytes of read/write memory > > > which you want to clear. Write a program that sets all 65536 bytes > > > to zero." > > Seemed like a piece of cake until it dawned upon me that the program has got > > to be stored somewhere. =/ > > PUSH is a good way to do it, BUT, ... > To clear ALL memory, the PUSH instruction must be at location 0 (at least > by the end of the program). Otherwise, the program code will be zero'd > out before it is done. It doesn't have to be at 0, but it does have to be the last executable instruction other than NOP (which is $00). > Can you do it WITHOUT self-modifying code? Yes. 8-) -spc (It only took me two hours because I've never programed the 8080/Z80 before ... ) From enrico.badella at softstar.it Sat Aug 4 04:48:45 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" References: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> <3B6BB31D.16819D49@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3B6BC4FD.48FB063C@softstar.it> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other Z8000 > > based systems? It seems odd to me how a company which was a giant in the 8-bit > > market didn't even make a dent in the 16/32-bit one. > > Olivetti made one IIRC it was the M21 - still looking for one here in > France..... Not only the M21 but a whole line of proprietary machines sold to government and small businesses. The os was called MOS and written in a proprietary language Pascal+ with synchronization primitives like monitors, semaphores etc. I never used it personally but heard quite a bit about MOS while workinh in the Unix group of Olivetti. Apparently MOS was only segmented. cheers e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From jtinker at coin.org Sat Aug 4 00:02:28 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: scelbi References: Message-ID: <3B6B81E4.77618DDF@coin.org> I have an 8-H. Unfortunately the user manual disappeared about 20 years ago. If anybody has a copy, I'd be interested. -- John Tinker "L. Sprung" wrote: > > HI: > > Anyone know where I might find some SCELBI computer products and literature? > > Thanks! From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Aug 4 06:27:26 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15211.20090.678494.654199@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I meant to type 8080 but had 8088 on the brain. There are lots of pre-ms-dos machines selling everyday such as Commodore, Osborne, etc. Does an Altair even get this kind of money on ebay? -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:23 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> -> -> On August 3, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > I can't see an 8088, even pre-MSDOS/IBM, going for over $150 -> regardless. I -> > felt good about getting $25 for mine considering the markup -> from what I paid -> > for it. -> -> It's an 8080, not an 8088...and WAY pre-MSDOS. -> -> Tell you what...next time you one, I'll give you $300 for it. :-) -> -> -Dave -> -> -- -> Dave McGuire -> Laurel, MD -> From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 3 21:08:43 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: References: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010804030843.007a1670@mail.solutionengineers.com> At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K ?? eBay doesn't >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice posting fee for that. If he re-lists it (because no-one bid), eBay refund the original listing fee if it sells the second time around. I doubt they'll be happy about it, but I'd expect to see it come around again with a starting price of about $10... -- Cheers, Ade. From menadeau at mediaone.net Sat Aug 4 09:08:26 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: How many collectors? References: <200108010139.VAA20855@world.std.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010803233535.024089a0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <004501c11cee$f252ee80$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> About a year ago, I started to catalog all the web sites devoted to collecting computers, including everything from game consoles to big iron. I stopped when I realized the futility. At that point, I had between 2500 and 3000 sites in a database. Most of those were highly specialized for specific brands or models, but those collectors were serious enough about the hobby to create a web site. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 2:43 AM Subject: Re: How many collectors? > At 10:44 PM 8/3/01 -0700, Ernest wrote: > >I think that I read in one of the articles about VCF east that Sellam > >thought that there might be 500 serious collectors....I'm interested > >in peoples opinions on this. Also, this post is NOT about > >Sellam's exact quote, it's about the idea behind it. > > The number certainly "feels" right. It is a fairly small community. Go to a > few VCF type things and you'll see the same bunch of folks. > > There is certainly the question "What is a 'serious' collector?" and one > cannot easily define that term. In my opinion a serious collector is > someone who does the actual work behind researching a particular aspect of > computers. Then they collect artifacts that are relevant to that research. > Just like art collectors will focus on a particular artist or period, > serious computer collectors will focus on a particular machine, technology, > or some similar aspect. > > Casual collectors are people who are unwilling to throw out anything, so > they have developed a "collection" of a bunch of old computers, but by the > same token they've never gone out and bought anything after the > manufacturer was out of business and/or not supporting their stuff anymore. > If you are the original owner (or someone in your immediate family is the > original owner) of all the stuff in your collection then you are a casual > collector. > > Speculative collectors don't know anything about the machines they have > collected except what the last one sold for on Ebay or at some other place. > The fact that they are trading in computers is more a coincidence with > their perception that computers will appreciate faster than the inflation > rate than it is because they actually love computers. > > Of course in the commercial hardware there is a group of people who have to > support "old" machines and they don't collect so much as stock spares. They > may or may not appreciate the machines they buy and sell, generally they > are pretty knowledgable about them. > > --Chuck > > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Aug 4 09:11:41 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010804030843.007a1670@mail.solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: And if he does relist with still no buyers he gets nailed twice for posting fees. Has anyone noticed that this is a new ebay user, just started aug 1 2001? -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ade Vickers -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:09 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> -> -> At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: -> >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K ?? -> eBay doesn't -> >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice posting -> fee for that. -> -> If he re-lists it (because no-one bid), eBay refund the original listing -> fee if it sells the second time around. I doubt they'll be happy -> about it, -> but I'd expect to see it come around again with a starting price of about -> $10... -> -- -> -> Cheers, -> Ade. -> From dogas at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 4 09:27:11 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: H8 trade References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2A@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <003901c11cf1$8d7f22a0$7cdb3fd0@DOMAIN> Hyya Dave > It does irritate me just a little, though, because I've wanted an H8 > very badly nearly all my life, and will likely NEVER get one if this > one sells at that price. I have a 2nd H8 that I've been holding on to as a spare crate for my main system for a while now (along with cards, software, periphs, and docs) Wanna trade? (I need a pdp-8...) ;) - Mike > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 4 09:30:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Take a big step back and look at us, we are half way to the loony bin for >collecting this stuff. Old computers are NOT an investment opportunity, and >nobody normal is going to start thinking they are from a few human interest >stories. I'd have to agree. Most of it isn't worth enough to make having to deal with how bulky it is worth while from a dealer's standpoint. It's not like coins and stamps where you can toss all the really common stuff into a box. This is what will keep speculators zeroing in on specific machines to buy/sell vice doing as they did with the various other hobbies and buying everything under the sun. In that respect, due to the space requirements, this hobby is more like the classic car collector. In that hobby it's still possible to get some really nice cars for a reasonable amount but certain specfic areas, such as 60's muscle cars or your luxury cars from the 30's, are well outside the price range of most. This isn't to say there isn't some pretty good price gouging going on with regards to some classic computer stuff, because there is. The few truly high dollar machines though aren't indicative of the valuation of the rest. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dogas at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 4 09:29:31 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: doh! References: <200108040158.f741wok31195@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <004b01c11cf1$e0a6d310$7cdb3fd0@DOMAIN> sorry... that was obviously intended privately.. From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 4 09:36:10 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <3B6BC4FD.48FB063C@softstar.it> References: <1753.616T900T1634897optimus@canit.se> <3B6BB31D.16819D49@aconit.org> <3B6BC4FD.48FB063C@softstar.it> Message-ID: >Not only the M21 but a whole line of proprietary machines sold to >government and small businesses. The os was called MOS and written in >a proprietary language Pascal+ with synchronization primitives like >monitors, semaphores etc. I never used it personally but heard quite >a bit about MOS while workinh in the Unix group of Olivetti. Apparently >MOS was only segmented. When I think of MOS, I think of a multi-user MS-DOS clone. We had a server running it on a small (less than a dozen systems) network in the late 80's. I no longer remember the protocal or NIC type used but we had a bunch of Z-248's connected to this machine, which I believe was a '386, using coax cable. It replaced a single CP/M system for keeping our troublecall database. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 09:42:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <007901c11cb6$9573bba0$0200a8c0@at.home> Message-ID: <002101c11cf3$ae3f4fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan Entwisle" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 1:25 AM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > Ah, have you considered it might be a mistake? > > How so I hear you cry? > > Have you ever mistyped a comma rather than a period when entering a number > in Ebay, and then (stupidly) forgotten to check the number before > continuing? I have :-) I then had hyperventolated (sp?) while I tried to > figure out how to retract my bid! > > For example: > 30,00 = 3000, not 30.00 > 250,00 = 25000, not 250.00 > > So 250.00 might be high for some, but no where near as bad as 25000! > > Cheers, > Duncan. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Russ Blakeman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:38 AM > Subject: RE: Ebay madness > > > > I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold t for $25 > > just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. > > > > -> -----Original Message----- > > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary > > -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM > > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > -> Subject: Ebay madness > > -> > > -> > > -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > > -> > > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > -> > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 09:43:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <007901c11cb6$9573bba0$0200a8c0@at.home> Message-ID: <002501c11cf3$cb6af6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This apparently happens just about often enough that the eBay folks include it among the valid reasons for retracting a bid. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan Entwisle" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 1:25 AM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > Ah, have you considered it might be a mistake? > > How so I hear you cry? > > Have you ever mistyped a comma rather than a period when entering a number > in Ebay, and then (stupidly) forgotten to check the number before > continuing? I have :-) I then had hyperventolated (sp?) while I tried to > figure out how to retract my bid! > > For example: > 30,00 = 3000, not 30.00 > 250,00 = 25000, not 250.00 > > So 250.00 might be high for some, but no where near as bad as 25000! > > Cheers, > Duncan. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Russ Blakeman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:38 AM > Subject: RE: Ebay madness > > > > I picked one up 3 months ago at a yard sale for $1.25 and sold t for $25 > > just last month - this guy is smoking some crack, the butt cheek kind. > > > > -> -----Original Message----- > > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary > > -> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:40 PM > > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > -> Subject: Ebay madness > > -> > > -> > > -> Is it just me? What are the odds this guy gets it? > > -> > > -> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1260881309 > > -> > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 4 09:45:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <004501c11cee$f252ee80$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> References: <200108010139.VAA20855@world.std.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010803233535.024089a0@209.185.79.193> <004501c11cee$f252ee80$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: >Most of those were highly specialized for specific brands or models, but >those collectors were serious enough about the hobby to create a web site. I've often wished I had specialized more. From the beginning, I had decided to do 8bit machines prior to 1985 and as everyone knows, that covers a huge amount of ground. Later I decided to add early game consoles to the mix. I have a few machines, such as the TRS-80 Model 2000 and MicroVAX II, that fall outside the initial area, but for the most part I've stuck to it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From hansp at aconit.org Sat Aug 4 09:44:19 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <3B6A67E0.49EEE786@tinyworld.co.uk> <3B6A880E.68CA1567@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3B6C0A43.DA98C917@aconit.org> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Paul Williams wrote: > > > Does anyone have Vol. 1, No. 2 of this magazine, dated June 1978? They > > reviewed the 380Z in that issue. I know this because No. 6 includes the > > following update, partially quoted here for the benefit of the other > > 380Z owners on this list: > > I will dig out the article and scan it for you. OK, its up at http://www.aconit.org/PCW/rm380z.htm I ocr'd and converted to html, if anyone really wants the original scans I can put those up too. Enjoy, -- HBP From nicko at hal-pc.org Sat Aug 4 09:46:06 2001 From: nicko at hal-pc.org (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Houston freebies Message-ID: <3B6C0AAE.63C387C@hal-pc.org> More housecleaning, free for pickup in the Houston area: - DEC chassis BA213 'skunkbox', badged DECsystem5400, unpopulated. VG condition. - MAC LC475, working - MAC IIsi - MAC Centris 610, complete, non-working - box full of '80s pc-related manuals, software - for any broadcast band dxers: box of DX News (NRC Journal)'91-'97 ... nick 0 281-516-1308 From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Aug 4 09:53:49 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3B6B1DF2.6DDE@xs4all.nl> <10108040036.ZM9203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3B6C0C7D.E825633E@idirect.com> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 3, 21:56, wanderer wrote: > > I have an 11/24 board here with a twice the size of the regular cpu > > chips mounted in socket 4 & 5. Socket 3 is empty, while the standard > > setup contains 3 chips in socket 1,2 & 3. Would this be the CIS chip? > Yes, it is. It's six control chips mounted in one "double-width" 40-pin > package. Socket 1 is the MMU, 2 is the Data and Control package of the > CPU, 3 is the Floating Point. The CIS can go in 4+5 or 5+6, and 7 (or > anything unused by CIS) is "spare". I don't know if there was ever any > other "microms" for an 11/23 or 11/24. Anyone seen any? Jerome Fine replies: I have never heard of any other "microms" for the 11/23 or the 11/24, but that does not mean that there are none. However, none of the manuals I have on the 11/23 dual (M8186) or the 11/23 quad (M8189) modules have ever mentioned any. So I would say it is doubtful. If there are any, I suspect they would be a private development and that seems even more doubtful considering the expense. On one point I am requesting some clarification. I have in my hands both an M8186 and an M8189. There are five pair of sockets for five microms. Right now, the CPU, MMU and FP microms are present. In the past, I have found that the order does not seem to be important, but I have not run an 11/23 (either one) lately and can't remember for sure. In any case, that leaves just two empty pair of sockets (20 pins each) which I presume would be filled by ONE CIS microm which is double width and would use one side of pair number 4 and the opposite side of pair number 5. Is this interpretation correct? I did not quite understand what you stated above since 5+6 does not seem to exist on either 11/23. I guess that if either the MMU or the FP were not present, the CIS microm could be moved down, but I presume that when inserting the CIS microm, the port side should always go into a port set and the starboard side should always go into a starboard set, just as with the CPU, MMU and FP microms. Based on the geometry, it seems impossible to insert a rom into the wrong pair because the spacing makes that impossible although it is obviously possible to reverse the direction of the rom and put it in backwards. Of course, this all assumes that a CIS microm is available! I have heard that the 11/44 has CIS and that the block move instruction is often used instead of a loop. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From hansp at aconit.org Sat Aug 4 10:14:34 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist References: Message-ID: <3B6C115A.3A55D4A5@aconit.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Here's the web edition of an article on VCF East in The Economist: > http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=719262 > I don't know if the article is any longer in the print edition. No, its the smae text on page 61. Who is that in the picture and where? -- HBP From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 4 10:38:16 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? References: Message-ID: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> Vintage computer collecting is really no different from many other forms of collecting, its simply less common. Vintage car buffs clearly are more advanced in their restoration and repair capabilities than vintage computer collectors as a group, but I beleive that this is really only a matter of a greater demand for services. Firearms collecting (in the USA) is probably the most similar form of collecting, as there is a lot of emphisis on the details and variations of specific models and the geneology of design, etc. (and that you may get a visit from overzealous officials of the persuit of your hobby!). In all these forms of collecting, as well as stamps, coins, and any antiques, you have 2 classes of people active in the hobby. Perhaps 80% to 90% of those active in the hobby have an 'accumulation' of interesting things, while a minority have a true 'collection'. Whats the differance between an accumulation and a collection? Its simply a matter of depth versus bredth. Some people may wish to accumulate one example of several breeds of minicomputers, but has no desire to use their limited space for many examples of a single model of line of machine. On the other hand, each breed of machine holds a world of details, software, quirks, and history. So others may wish to have a deeper understanding of a smaller segment of vintage computers. Clearly building an accumulation is much easier than building a true collection, simply because nearly any vintage system can drop into some form of context with what you have already. Given how closely related all computers are, its not hard to find some context that relates very distant machines. Building a collection on the other hand requires a much more selective approach, where many interesting finds might be passed by, or traded for specific things needed to fill any gaps in the collection, and a dedication to the study of a limited scope of collectable systems. Generally, the term 'serious collectors' is used to describe the minority of people who go for depth over bredth. Personally, I feel that both forms (accumulations and 'serious' collections) are important to the growth of any form of collecting, as collectors trade and swap amonghts themselves. Also its clear that some people may have a real depth to their collection of some machines, while also having an accululation of others. As a result, I really don't like to make any distinction between accululators and 'true' collectors. The only really meaningful thing, is how many other people are interested in the items your seeking, and can you work with them to everyone's mutual benifit? Some people may stumble onto a very old, or very rare machine, but lack the skills or knowledge to really make the machine perform like it was new. So simple possession does not make one a collector of any standing. That being the case, simple quantity also fails to make the grade of 'serious collector'. A massive accumulation of different systems, each partly imcomplete, undocumented, and poorly understood clearly fails to be a serious collection, even if your spending large sums on storage space. Lining all the systems up in pretty rows does not qualify either. But a single, complete system, documented and understood, can be a very nice collection because of the detailed effort it takes to assemble something like this, especially if the system in question is a restoration, or a newly assembled system made from all original parts. In my opinion, if you have searched for years for a specific item, you are a serious collector, even if you have not found it yet! My reason for this is that you have probably done a lot of research, and have a deep understanding of the item your after. But you may also have a small number of fairly common systems, but also have done the detailed research and documentation to claim the title of a 'serious collector', for whatever that is worth. In my opinion, Ernest wrote: > I think that I read in one of the articles about VCF east that Sellam > thought that there might be 500 serious collectors. I can't remember the > exact quote but it was something like that. > > I was just curious to know if that number (whatever it was) is approximately > correct? How do you define "serious collector?" Is it by number of machines > a collector has? Would someone who has a handful of very rare computers > qualify as serious? What if someone spent years doing an educated hunt for > just one particular system that no one else has, and found it. Would they be > a serious collector? Or is it based on the kind of computer being > collected -like DEC vs. Apple, etc.? > > I'm interested in peoples opinions on this. Also, this post is NOT about > Sellam's exact quote, it's about the idea behind it. > > Ernest From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Aug 4 10:28:46 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 Re: what the hell. In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010803222018.00bd5660@206.231.8.2> References: <20010725133340.A2228893@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010804112655.00a89ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:27 PM 8/3/01 -0400, Chris wrote: >Upon the date 01:33 PM 7/25/01 -0500, Dan Wright said something like: > >Well, even though I've already posted a couple times, I too am new to > the list > >and thought I'd chime in. I live and work in champaign-urbana, IL, and > mostly > >collect old UNIX machines -- I have a couple HP 735's, an HP 425/t, HP 300, > >sun sparc 2, 5, and 20, an RS/6000, and some other crap. Oooo yeah, I got a > >textronix model 31 electronic calculator recently, but haven't done anything > >"Oooo yeah" is right! Nice rather rare catch Dan! I have one and I believe >a British list member has one too, IIRC. I have one also and I think Sellam has one.. I seem to remember that Sellam or someone else from the list got a load of tapes for it a year or two ago. Joe From ernestls at home.com Sat Aug 4 10:36:20 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've often wished I had specialized more. From the > beginning, I had decided to do 8bit machines prior to 1985 and as > everyone knows, that covers a huge amount of ground. Later I decided > to add early game consoles to the mix. I have a few machines, such > as the TRS-80 Model 2000 and MicroVAX II, that fall outside the > initial area, but for the most part I've stuck to it. Yes, I've had to become more focused because of my lack of storage space. I got hooked on the whole vintage computer thing a few years ago when I was asked to save some family history files that were on an AT&T 6300 HD but they only had the case (no keyboard or monitor.) This was before I knew anything about this mailing list, or that there were newsgroups about old computers. I learned a lot in the hunt for the parts that I needed, and by the time found what I needed, I was hooked on the thrill of the hunt. That, and the feeling of joy I would get when I found some long neglected old computer that I would clean up and see run for the first time in years. I quickly began to collect any old computers, even Compaq 286's but it didn't take me long to see the need to calm down, and be more focused. I still have some computers from that first wave of hunting but for the most part, I've tried to stick to Apple II related items. Now, I've moved into collecting Apple II clones as well. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 4 12:40:53 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3B6B1DF2.6DDE@xs4all.nl> <10108040036.ZM9203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3B6C0C7D.E825633E@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3B6C33A5.6D10@xs4all.nl> Hello Jerome, There are indeed 5 sockets on an 11/23+, but an 11/24 card has 7 sockets. On the card I have, socket 1 & 2 are the basic set of microms, the third is then the FP and the CIS microm is placed in one end of socket 4 and the other in socket 5. Since this leaves 2 more sockets empty, it would indeed suggest that there are/could be other options to be added. Judging the wiring on the board, it suggests that the position is not relevant, except the MMU & Data and Control. Regards, Ed Jerome Fine wrote: > > >Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 21:56, wanderer wrote: > > > I have an 11/24 board here with a twice the size of the regular cpu > > > chips mounted in socket 4 & 5. Socket 3 is empty, while the standard > > > setup contains 3 chips in socket 1,2 & 3. Would this be the CIS chip? > > Yes, it is. It's six control chips mounted in one "double-width" 40-pin > > package. Socket 1 is the MMU, 2 is the Data and Control package of the > > CPU, 3 is the Floating Point. The CIS can go in 4+5 or 5+6, and 7 (or > > anything unused by CIS) is "spare". I don't know if there was ever any > > other "microms" for an 11/23 or 11/24. Anyone seen any? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I have never heard of any other "microms" for the 11/23 or the 11/24, but > that does not mean that there are none. However, none of the manuals I > have on the 11/23 dual (M8186) or the 11/23 quad (M8189) modules > have ever mentioned any. So I would say it is doubtful. If there are any, > I suspect they would be a private development and that seems even more > doubtful considering the expense. > > On one point I am requesting some clarification. I have in my hands both > an M8186 and an M8189. There are five pair of sockets for five microms. > Right now, the CPU, MMU and FP microms are present. In the past, I have > found that the order does not seem to be important, but I have not run an > 11/23 (either one) lately and can't remember for sure. In any case, that > leaves just two empty pair of sockets (20 pins each) which I presume > would be filled by ONE CIS microm which is double width and would use > one side of pair number 4 and the opposite side of pair number 5. Is > this interpretation correct? I did not quite understand what you stated > above since 5+6 does not seem to exist on either 11/23. > > I guess that if either the MMU or the FP were not present, the CIS microm > could be moved down, but I presume that when inserting the CIS microm, > the port side should always go into a port set and the starboard side should > always go into a starboard set, just as with the CPU, MMU and FP microms. > > Based on the geometry, it seems impossible to insert a rom into the wrong > pair because the spacing makes that impossible although it is obviously > possible to reverse the direction of the rom and put it in backwards. > > Of course, this all assumes that a CIS microm is available! > > I have heard that the 11/44 has CIS and that the block move instruction > is often used instead of a loop. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From ernestls at home.com Sat Aug 4 10:39:25 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <3B6C115A.3A55D4A5@aconit.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 8:15 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VCF East makes The Economist > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Here's the web edition of an article on VCF East in The Economist: > > > http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=719262 > > > I don't know if the article is any longer in the print edition. > > No, its the smae text on page 61. > > Who is that in the picture and where? I'm curious also. Take a look at the background -I wonder if it's even in the US. That gold tipped column, and the old buildings remind me of Italy. What is that that he's throwing? What is that thing a little below and to the right of the tower (screen maybe?) and then there's the interesting looking piece in the bottom right corner. Anyone know what those are? From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 4 10:47:21 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:06:59 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <3B6C1909.1B62B2F6@tiac.net> I disagree. Collecting firearms has been greatly complicated by recent laws, yet it remains very popular. Getting old iron shipped does not require the paperwork and problems having a rifle or handgun shipped across state lines does. Vintage hardware is valuable, and will appreciate in value. Demand will rise, and supplies will only drop for the really classic stuff. What do you think people might pay for a working Imsai 8080 in 20 years? Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Take a big step back and look at us, we are half way to the loony bin for > >collecting this stuff. Old computers are NOT an investment opportunity, and > >nobody normal is going to start thinking they are from a few human interest > >stories. > > I'd have to agree. Most of it isn't worth enough to make > having to deal with how bulky it is worth while from a dealer's > standpoint. It's not like coins and stamps where you can toss all > the really common stuff into a box. This is what will keep > speculators zeroing in on specific machines to buy/sell vice doing as > they did with the various other hobbies and buying everything under > the sun. In that respect, due to the space requirements, this hobby > is more like the classic car collector. In that hobby it's still > possible to get some really nice cars for a reasonable amount but > certain specfic areas, such as 60's muscle cars or your luxury cars > from the 30's, are well outside the price range of most. > > This isn't to say there isn't some pretty good price gouging > going on with regards to some classic computer stuff, because there > is. The few truly high dollar machines though aren't indicative of > the valuation of the rest. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Aug 4 10:34:21 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: HP Integral FS In-Reply-To: <20010804011236.C7314@mrbill.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803192212.00a84110@mailhost.intellistar.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803192212.00a84110@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010804113341.00a80cc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:12 AM 8/4/01 -0500, Billwrote: >On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:22:59PM -0400, joe wrote: > > Found this on E-bay. > > HP MODEL 207 9807A INTEGRAL PC Item # 1261307861 > >Gone. I love "buy it now". 8-) And I love finder's fees. Hint hint! :-) Joe >Bill > >-- >Bill Bradford >mrbill@mrbill.net >Austin, TX From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 11:00:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3.0.6.32.20010804030843.007a1670@mail.solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <003101c11cfe$a0892d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A couple of years back there was a pretty good example that I observed, albeit only partially. I had several of the old Cromemco TV Dazzlers board pairs for S-100, together with the original software, albeit on paper tape, but, for the collectors... I'd been told of the sale of one of these for $14K, which quickly motivated me to search through the basement to find the ones I had. In the interval between my starting the search and figuring out how to list things on eBay, I saw another of them sell for $400 or so. Quite a come-down from $14K, but ... Within a couple of weeks I had the three Dazzlers in hand and started watching eBay for what I though was the "right" time to list one. So ... up pops a Cromemco dazzler, and it doesn't even sell for $10 ... The fortunes of war, I guess ... I'm still waiting for the "right" time to sell stuff. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ade Vickers" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:08 PM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K ?? eBay doesn't > >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice posting fee for that. > > If he re-lists it (because no-one bid), eBay refund the original listing > fee if it sells the second time around. I doubt they'll be happy about it, > but I'd expect to see it come around again with a starting price of about > $10... > -- > > Cheers, > Ade. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 11:12:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <3B6C1909.1B62B2F6@tiac.net> Message-ID: <004701c11d00$3e4688e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While there's plenty of room for disagreement regarding the merit of classic computer hardware as an "investment," in a nationwide market, as provided by eBay, its value is significant. One example, is the Heathkit Microprocessor Trainer that sat at the Denver Gateway Electronics store for over two years with a pricetag of $40. One sold for $250 or thereabouts on eBay, and, suddenly, the one at Gateway was gone. There are people who value such things. There just aren't very many, as a proportion of the population. Denver is an area somewhat over a million people. The country is approaching 300 million. I don't think it's going to take a rocket scientist to figure out that even if there isn't one interested party in a particular million, there might just be a couple or three in 300 million. While the locals may see something as junk, others, not local, disagree. I think that's great! What's great about eBay and the like is that it opens up that market, i.e. the entire 300 million to those of us who have got stuff that the local million or so might not want, but that we believe has value, though we don't want it ourselves, so that those other 299 million can see that we have it if they do want it. That, also, is what's not so convenient about eBay. Now, I've gotten 256MB DRAMs for $10 and bargains like that from time to time, and I've also missed a few by a few (who knows?) bucks, but having to bid against the entire market is sometimes not to my advantage. It is the way the market works, though. It certainly beats the alternative. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > I disagree. > > Collecting firearms has been greatly complicated by recent laws, yet > it remains very popular. Getting old iron shipped does not require the > paperwork and problems having a rifle or handgun shipped across state > lines does. > > Vintage hardware is valuable, and will appreciate in value. Demand will > rise, and supplies will only drop for the really classic stuff. > > What do you think people might pay for a working Imsai 8080 in 20 years? > > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > >Take a big step back and look at us, we are half way to the loony bin for > > >collecting this stuff. Old computers are NOT an investment opportunity, and > > >nobody normal is going to start thinking they are from a few human interest > > >stories. > > > > I'd have to agree. Most of it isn't worth enough to make > > having to deal with how bulky it is worth while from a dealer's > > standpoint. It's not like coins and stamps where you can toss all > > the really common stuff into a box. This is what will keep > > speculators zeroing in on specific machines to buy/sell vice doing as > > they did with the various other hobbies and buying everything under > > the sun. In that respect, due to the space requirements, this hobby > > is more like the classic car collector. In that hobby it's still > > possible to get some really nice cars for a reasonable amount but > > certain specfic areas, such as 60's muscle cars or your luxury cars > > from the 30's, are well outside the price range of most. > > > > This isn't to say there isn't some pretty good price gouging > > going on with regards to some classic computer stuff, because there > > is. The few truly high dollar machines though aren't indicative of > > the valuation of the rest. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 4 11:12:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6C1909.1B62B2F6@tiac.net> References: <3B6C1909.1B62B2F6@tiac.net> Message-ID: >Collecting firearms has been greatly complicated by recent laws, yet >it remains very popular. Getting old iron shipped does not require the >paperwork and problems having a rifle or handgun shipped across state >lines does. Collecting firearms takes up nowhere near the space that collecting vintage computers does though, and the space problem is the thing that I see will limit the people who get into this hobby. That is also why it's doubtful you will see specialty shops selling vintage computer stuff the way you see shops dealing in stamps, coins, vintage cameras and comic books. The onhand inventory would be very limited due to space which would mean that the seller would stick to those few very high priced systems in order to make a profit. The problem there is that there wouldn't be a large enough supply to make it worth while, even though the demand might be there. Classic car dealers get away with it because the hobby as a whole is built around big ticket items, which again is not the case with collecting computers. >Vintage hardware is valuable, and will appreciate in value. Demand will >rise, and supplies will only drop for the really classic stuff. >What do you think people might pay for a working Imsai 8080 in 20 years? Of course demand will rise and supplies will drop as time goes on. Much to our dismay, regardless of how we put the word out, people will still trash these early systems. Attrition due to parts wearing out and corrosion will also whittle away at the supplly. You give an example of one of the few big dollar systems though. Demand already outpaces the supply. This doesn't mean it will be that way for a larger selection of machines though. There are a lot of truly interesting machines that are practically ignored and that it is nearly impossible to find information concerning. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu Sat Aug 4 11:15:48 2001 From: reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu (Reuben Reyes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 Message-ID: How much is a Tektronix 31 worth? Reuben From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 4 11:30:36 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> References: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> Message-ID: >Generally, the term 'serious collectors' is used to describe the minority of >people who go for depth over bredth. Personally, I would have to disagree. I don't believe the scope of one's collection, whether it be a collection that goes after every single item connected to a single type or machine or whether it tries to cover every specific machine from a given period, has much to do with whether or not someone is a 'serious' collector. It's the effort put forth and the overall quest for knowledge and understanding of the systems collected that marks one as a serious collector vice the person who goes out and buys a system/systems, stashes it aways somewhere and never truly tries to learn about and understand what they've accumalated. I've gone for quite a broad collection, covering the first 10 years or so of the microcomputer era, but I would call myself a serious collector. It is here for my enjoyment and to learn all I can concerning each machine. To me, the statement you've made above is trying to put down those who's interest are broader in scope. I do agree though that both types of collectors are needed. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 4 11:32:03 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) In-Reply-To: <3B6C0C7D.E825633E@idirect.com> References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3B6B1DF2.6DDE@xs4all.nl> <10108040036.ZM9203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I have heard that the 11/44 has CIS and that the block move instruction >is often used instead of a loop. There is a CIS option for the /44, it's the one thing I'd like to add to my /44 (I've already got the FP). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Gary.Messick at itt.com Sat Aug 4 11:48:15 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Some interesting finds today Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2B@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> While out diggin around the local surplus electronics place, I came across what appears to be a set of VAX Field Service Diags on 8" floppy. Does anyone have any use for them? I have mostly PDP-11 stuff myself, but could use the media. They look like they're in fine shape, with coprights from 1978-86. These I picked up. Also other interesting finds: A couple of TRS-80 cassette tape games (titles I can't remember, a TK50 cart, a cipher cart tape drive (don't remember model number), and a hacked up (user wired a fuse into it) Atari power cube for 400/800 machine. These I didn't pick up. If anyone is interested, let me know, and I'll see what he wants for them. My email address is: Gary.Messick@itt.com From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 4 11:49:58 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <15211.16558.124568.621772@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010804114626.W31830-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I wish eBay had a "wish bid" system... ...or just used sealed (well, viewable by seller only) bids entirely. That way, people would have only one opportunity to tell eBay what they would pay for a certain item. That would solve the 'problems' of the psychological drive to outbid people and of sniping. Of course, that's the buyer in me talking. The seller in me seems to have an entirely different opinion... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From menadeau at mediaone.net Sat Aug 4 11:59:25 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist References: Message-ID: <00f801c11d06$d79bb640$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> I'm sure the photo came from one of the image databases that publisher's use. Much cheaper than sending out a photographer. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: RE: VCF East makes The Economist > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal > > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 8:15 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: VCF East makes The Economist > > > > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > Here's the web edition of an article on VCF East in The Economist: > > > > > http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=719262 > > > > > I don't know if the article is any longer in the print edition. > > > > No, its the smae text on page 61. > > > > Who is that in the picture and where? > > I'm curious also. Take a look at the background -I wonder if it's even in > the US. That gold tipped column, and the old buildings remind me of Italy. > What is that that he's throwing? What is that thing a little below and to > the right of the tower (screen maybe?) and then there's the interesting > looking piece in the bottom right corner. Anyone know what those are? > > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 4 11:04:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6B7CD4.3078F2D6@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hey, I hope I didn't offend you. If you have a different opinion, > that's O.K. Chuck is right, the stuff may be out ther and ebay is a > great flea market where it shows up. I was just worried about an > exploding demand. I don't know what's right. I was being silly (it's actually very difficult to offend me :) But my point is that you can't bridle passion, and that's what you have here. Collecting old computers is a passion for many people, and trying to keep it "underground" by refusing to talk to reporters or whatnot will do nothing to stop the spread of interest in old computers. The positive spin is that there will be more and more people to share knowledge with, and the guy who starts collecting today just may end up helping you out in a year or two with that piece of hardware, software, or information that you need to get a machine of yours running :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Aug 4 12:06:02 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It can - my uncle in Chicago has not only handguns and rifles but military weapons to include a 50 cal machine gun or two, a 500 lb British bomb (diffused) from WWII, and a turret cannon from a Sherman tank (minus the tank, and in his garage). He also collects arrowheads/clubs/axes as well as medival items like armor, maces, crossbows, etc. His house is absolutely full of the stuff and in some rooms it's actually creepy as one room looks like a torture chamber from medical days and yet another looks like one of Hitler's armories. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 11:13 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> >Collecting firearms has been greatly complicated by recent laws, yet -> >it remains very popular. Getting old iron shipped does not require the -> >paperwork and problems having a rifle or handgun shipped across state -> >lines does. -> -> Collecting firearms takes up nowhere near the space that -> collecting vintage computers does though, and the space problem is -> the thing that I see will limit the people who get into this hobby. -> That is also why it's doubtful you will see specialty shops selling -> vintage computer stuff the way you see shops dealing in stamps, -> coins, vintage cameras and comic books. The onhand inventory would -> be very limited due to space which would mean that the seller would -> stick to those few very high priced systems in order to make a -> profit. The problem there is that there wouldn't be a large enough -> supply to make it worth while, even though the demand might be there. -> Classic car dealers get away with it because the hobby as a whole is -> built around big ticket items, which again is not the case with -> collecting computers. -> -> >Vintage hardware is valuable, and will appreciate in value. Demand will -> >rise, and supplies will only drop for the really classic stuff. -> >What do you think people might pay for a working Imsai 8080 in 20 years? -> -> Of course demand will rise and supplies will drop as time -> goes on. Much to our dismay, regardless of how we put the word out, -> people will still trash these early systems. Attrition due to parts -> wearing out and corrosion will also whittle away at the supplly. You -> give an example of one of the few big dollar systems though. Demand -> already outpaces the supply. This doesn't mean it will be that way -> for a larger selection of machines though. There are a lot of truly -> interesting machines that are practically ignored and that it is -> nearly impossible to find information concerning. -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> -> From mbg at world.std.com Sat Aug 4 12:07:29 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) References: <535de852fd90.52fd90535de8@ono.com> <10108031827.ZM8897@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3B6B1DF2.6DDE@xs4all.nl> <10108040036.ZM9203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200108041707.NAA18384@world.std.com> >I have never heard of any other "microms" for the 11/23 or the 11/24, but >that does not mean that there are none. However, none of the manuals I >have on the 11/23 dual (M8186) or the 11/23 quad (M8189) modules have >ever mentioned any. So I would say it is doubtful. If there are any, I >suspect they would be a private development and that seems even more >doubtful considering the expense. I don't know if they are called Microms, but there is the CPU, MMU, FPU, CIS and I seem to remember that there was one other... As for their size, all of the chips except for the CIS option are one socket wide. The CIS option actually plugs into the outer sets of pins of adjacent sockets. socket1 socket2 o o o o o o o o o o o o . . . . . . o o o o o o o o o o o o \-----/ \-----/ CPU MMU socket4 socket5 o o o o o o o o o o o o . . . . . . o o o o o o o o o o o o \-------------/ CIS and the CIS carrier actually has 6 chips. As I mentioned in a prior post, I have an 11/23+ with CPU, MMU, FPU and CIS, so I can prove it exists... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 4 11:09:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: > I think that I read in one of the articles about VCF east that Sellam > thought that there might be 500 serious collectors. I can't remember > the exact quote but it was something like that. I think in a partially drunken spewage of "facts" during an interview I said 500-1000. I think it's definitely closer to 1,000 worldwide. It's may be even higher, but I was trying to be conservative. > I was just curious to know if that number (whatever it was) is > approximately correct? How do you define "serious collector?" Is it by > number of machines a collector has? Would someone who has a handful of > very rare computers qualify as serious? What if someone spent years > doing an educated hunt for just one particular system that no one else > has, and found it. Would they be a serious collector? Or is it based > on the kind of computer being collected -like DEC vs. Apple, etc.? If we define "serious" as someone who actively engages in computer collecting activities (goes looking for them once in a while, maybe even has a website), I think that number is definitely between 500-1000 (worldwide). Drop "serious" from the equation and what you have is probably more like 5,000 collectors worldwide. Probably more. (And I want each and every one of them to come to the VCF ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 4 11:11:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803233535.024089a0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Casual collectors are people who are unwilling to throw out anything, > so they have developed a "collection" of a bunch of old computers, but > by the same token they've never gone out and bought anything after the > manufacturer was out of business and/or not supporting their stuff > anymore. If you are the original owner (or someone in your immediate > family is the original owner) of all the stuff in your collection then > you are a casual collector. I call this person an "accumulator" :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Aug 4 12:10:07 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <004701c11d00$3e4688e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Which is why I sell strictly on ebay and check all auctions for things I want/need. I see prices out of line on ebay but find Yahoo, BidBay, etc having somethings (sometimes the same seller as on ebay) that either has no bids or is still reasonable near close. Of course I have a wide area of needs including ham radio, cb radio, test equipment, computers and accessories, etc and many items are not to be found other than on ebay. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 12:16:52 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Reuben Reyes wrote: > How much is a Tektronix 31 worth? Last one that I saw, went for $1 From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 4 11:23:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > Here's the web edition of an article on VCF East in The Economist: > > > > > http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=719262 > > > > > I don't know if the article is any longer in the print edition. > > > > No, its the smae text on page 61. > > > > Who is that in the picture and where? > > I'm curious also. Take a look at the background -I wonder if it's even > in the US. That gold tipped column, and the old buildings remind me of > Italy. What is that that he's throwing? What is that thing a little > below and to the right of the tower (screen maybe?) and then there's > the interesting looking piece in the bottom right corner. Anyone know > what those are? This looks like a file photo to me. I have no idea where it was taken. But that "interesting looking piece" in the bottom right corner is an HP 98xx (someone help me here :) It's sad to see that in what is most likely a recycle heap of old computers. It's a very cool machine. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 4 11:29:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Reuben Reyes wrote: > How much is a Tektronix 31 worth? Whatever you can get someone to pay for it. Oh, you mean historically? It's a very interesting programmable calculator. Here's another terrific article by Rick Bensene on his Old Caclulators Web Museum about the 31 that will answer many of your questions: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510/tek31.html Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Sat Aug 4 14:04:44 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: MO drives... Message-ID: Hi, On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 Roger Merchberger wrote: > I'd love to find one (or a few) of the 3.5" 128Meg (or 256Meg) drives for > my classic computing needs - great archival capabilities, and with > 8-bitters, you don't really worry much about the speed... Both SCSI and IDE models are on eBay all the time. Used 128MB and 230MB drives (compatible with 128MB disks) usually go for $10-$30. New media is also cheap; 128MB & 230MB disks cost about ?2.20 each (+VAT) in the UK. They certainly make way more sense than buying a Zip drive. You probably didn't mean to write 256MB. There are two types of 256MB MO drives, neither of which is very common. Canon made the NeXT MO drive as well as a standalone model (which does not seem to be compatible with NeXT disks). They use 5.25" disks with 256MB per side. MOST (Mass Optical Storage Technologies, now out of business) used to make 3.5" MO drives. The RMD-5100-S used 128MB disks. The RMD-5200-S could also use 256MB disks, which as far as I know were only sold by MOST. The RMD-5300-S could use 128MB, 256MB and 384MB disks. 384MB disks are covered by an ECMA standard, but as with the 256MB ones only MOST made them. I have RMD-5200-S and RMD-5300-S drives, bought mainly out of curiosity. IF ANYONE HAS JUMPER SETTING INFO FOR THESE, PLEASE CONTACT ME! I would also like to get hold of technical manuals for these drives. > The only thing you have to watch for with the 5.25" drives is sector size. > The 600Meg platters are 512-byte sectors, IIRC the 650Meg platters are > 2048-byte sectors [[but don't quote me]]... Nope, 650MB disks have 1024-byte sectors. > 650Meg disks will *not* work in a 600Meg drive, They work fine. The main reason for having two disks with slightly different capacities is that some computers/OSes only work with media that has 512-byte sectors. If you have 650MB disks which won't work in a "600MB" drive, it's probably a software problem. > but thankfully my MaxOptics takes it's "special" 1G disks, but also > reads/writes to the 600Meg disks. (which is good, because the 1G disk seemed > to be bad. It wouldn't format without a *lot* of bad sectors.) Did you try cleaning the surface of the disk? That can help for disks which have been heavily used, and so have become dusty/dirty. -- Mark From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Aug 4 13:25:57 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Z8000 In-Reply-To: <200108040116.f741GmE01883@bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com> from Bill Pechter at "Aug 3, 2001 09:16:47 pm" Message-ID: <200108041825.f74IPv406644@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other Z8000 > > based systems? It seems odd to me how a company which was a giant in the 8-bit > > market didn't even make a dent in the 16/32-bit one. > > The Z8000 included the Zilog (later Exxon Office Systems) Zeus office > automation Unix boxes... One Circuit Cellar project was a co-processor card for the IBM PC containing a Z8000. I toyed around a while with building an S100 bus processor card for Z8000 (long after the both the chip and systems using the bus were no longer in general production.) Never came to anything. I still have to processor technical manual on my shelf. It's an interesting chip, but was a bit slower than it needed to be. Eric From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 4 13:37:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS commercial instruction set (CIS) Message-ID: <007b01c11d14$a9b4bbb0$9b749a8d@ajp166> From: Megan >and the CIS carrier actually has 6 chips. > >As I mentioned in a prior post, I have an 11/23+ with CPU, MMU, >FPU and CIS, so I can prove it exists... I also have one like that plus another with the FFPU, a quad board that is a 2901C implmentation of the FPU and faster too. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 13:54:58 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Casual collectors are people who are unwilling to throw out anything, > > so they have developed a "collection" of a bunch of old computers, but > > by the same token they've never gone out and bought anything after the > > manufacturer was out of business and/or not supporting their stuff > > anymore. If you are the original owner (or someone in your immediate > > family is the original owner) of all the stuff in your collection then > > you are a casual collector. On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I call this person an "accumulator" :) You rang? ( - Maynard G Krebs) Sellam calls me an "accumulator". But he has been extremely helpful to me when I needed to get rid of a few thousand square feet of stuff. I am unwilling to throw out anything, so I have developed a "collection". But I DO OFTEN buy things after the manufacturer has gone out of business. It's cheaper then. Or right before - the trend controllers follow me around with clipboards to discontinue ANYTHING that I like. More than a dozen magazines have folded or changed focus IMMEDIATELY after I subscribed. I buy things because they are useful, neat, or fun. NOT because they are historical. I bought TRS-80s when they were current. I bought Gavilans right after they went under, when they got cheap enough. I bought PCs when they were current. My HC-20s were well before Epson released it in the U.S. as the HX-20. Do I have a collection? Yes. Am I a "serious collector"? No. I need to get rid of another dozen cubic yards. Besides,... How can y'all talk about being serious when MOST of the traffic on this list is about cars, firearms, and dipping in molten iron? OB_ON-topic: I have a small box of NOS Shugart 8" repair parts (some drive belts, chips, a SS head carriage, etc. Anybody want to pay $5 (priority mail +) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From fernande at internet1.net Sat Aug 4 14:27:52 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <3B6C4CB8.D416CADA@internet1.net> I find that over the past couple of years I have bought to much stupid stuff. Stuff for projects that never get done, stuff that ends up not being what I really had in mind, stuff I should have been smarter than to purchase, etc. Thats why I have been giving all the stuff away lately. I would love to get ahold of a nice 4000-x00 Vax, hopefully a 500 or better. I just havenb't gotten the right Vax or seller. I email a seller with questions and they either don't get back with me, or don't give complete info, or won't clarify something, or whatever. A lot of times they are just to far away, demand that it goes my freight, won't ship, or it goes for more than I want to spend, etc. Maybe I'll just have to satified with my 3400 for now. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Steve Robertson wrote: > Seems to me that prices on eBay have dropped over the last year or so. This > could be because of the depressed economy or the fact that some of us > collectors are becoming "saturated". > > I've certainly slowed down on my purchases. Nowadays, a computer's gotta be > really cheap before I'll buy it. From hansp at aconit.org Sat Aug 4 14:37:41 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist References: Message-ID: <3B6C4F05.13788A3C@aconit.org> And slash dot just picked up the story also. -- HBP From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 4 14:42:02 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: FSOT References: Message-ID: <001f01c11d1d$88c42ea0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Free for Postage else TOSS! NetWare reference card, 1988, qty 3 Netware 3270 IBM KB overlays, qty 10 ExaByte EXB-8202,8505 Owners Manual, 1994, qty 2 "Using ExaByte Tape Drives in Non-DOS Syetems", 1995, qty 2 John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 4 14:46:28 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <007901c11cb6$9573bba0$0200a8c0@at.home> <002501c11cf3$cb6af6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <004b01c11d1e$466a98e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > 30,00 = 3000, not 30.00 > 250,00 = 25000, not 250.00 > > So 250.00 might be high for some, but no where near as bad as 25000! P.S. Just never bother typing the .00. It's OK John A. From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 4 14:03:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Sellam calls me an "accumulator". But he has been extremely helpful > to me when I needed to get rid of a few thousand square feet of stuff. And I am extremely greatful for the materials you gave me. Especially the magazines, of which there were more than a few :) Fred is one of the best examples I know of an "accumulator". He had a very nice collection just by virtue of being in the computer biz for so long :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 15:31:48 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Sellam calls me an "accumulator". But he has been extremely helpful > > to me when I needed to get rid of a few thousand square feet of stuff. On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > And I am extremely greatful for the materials you gave me. Especially the > magazines, of which there were more than a few :) Can you imagine how painful it was to have to part with most of my magazines and some of my books?? > Fred is one of the best examples I know of an "accumulator". He had a > very nice collection just by virtue of being in the computer biz for so > long :) What hurts is that I should not accumulate anything until I get rid of a dozen more cubic yards. :-( -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Aug 4 15:37:40 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Fw: O.T. But a good SBC deal for my PS/2 friends Message-ID: "LaVasseur" wrote in message news:<20010804150755.14916.00004361@ng-cg1.aol.com>... > Hi Gang, > > I found a dumpster FULL of brand-new in-box Single board computers (SBCs) Made > by Texas Micro Now (Radisys) I have over 140 Intel pentium 100 Cpu's with 16 > megs of RAM on each, they have on-board SCSI, IDE, Floppy controllers and two > serial ports and paralell port. They come 5 to a case and have drivers and docs > and floppy cables. They come from a company that used to manufacture IP > telephony equipment using rackmount cases and passive backplane motherboards. > > The model name is P575/90/120 but I can't seem to find them on the Radisys > web-site the board says "greyhound 2 > > Sorry, I know this it off topic, but I know a lot of you tinker with other IBM > compatibles and other hardware hacks . These would be great for Linux MP3 > players and such. Check out the link below. > > http://www.maximumpc.com/route66/howto1_3.html > > I'm selling them for $50 per case or $10 each plus shipping . the CPU and > memory alone are well worth that. I'm in the USA, and I don't mind shipping > them overseas. I take paypal "lavasseur@aol.com" > > Once again I apoligize for the off-topic post but you guys have been great > friends over the years and I really wanted to pass this along.( alright, and I > want to make a couple of bucks :-) > > > > > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 4 15:38:46 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <003101c11cfe$a0892d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20010804134351.U31830-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Ok, we we've seen a few examples on this thread of prices going downward. I think that those cases are statistically local phenomena, and that the general trend is going to be upwards. In my opinion (IANAE, so I may be full of hot air), the economics of the situation compels it to be so: (0) The items are generally not being manufactured anymore. That establishes an upward bound on the number of items available in the 'market'. This means that *any* increase in supply is a local phenomenon; one needs only to consider a sufficiently long run to see that supply is either constant or decreasing. (1) Assume that items break beyond all repair every now and then. This means that the upper bounds established in point (0) is itself decreasing, and since the market supply cannot exceed this bounds, it must also be decreasing in the long run. (2) Assume that items break every now and then, but that technology exists such that repair parts can always be made and that people will accept the repaired items as true versions of said items. The supply trend in the long run (constant or decreasing) is then determined by the number of people who are putting the item up for auction, as opposed to keeping it. Though re-auctioners exist, my opinion is that most of the people who buy this stuff on eBay are going to keep it. This means the supply would decrease (in the run, of course). (3) Unless the number of prospective bidders is going down like mad (and I'd say it's increasing, actually), I don't think the demand is going to be decreasing fast enough to have a negative overall effect on prices. So *there*! :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From chomko at greenbelt.com Sat Aug 4 15:45:29 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: How many collectors? References: Message-ID: <3B6C5EE9.C4A4B138@greenbelt.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > Sellam calls me an "accumulator". But he has been extremely helpful > > to me when I needed to get rid of a few thousand square feet of stuff. > > And I am extremely greatful for the materials you gave me. Especially the > magazines, of which there were more than a few :) > > Fred is one of the best examples I know of an "accumulator". He had a > very nice collection just by virtue of being in the computer biz for so > long :) > Give him credit for holding on to the stuff. I mean every older person I know could have one heck of coin collection as I'm sure they touched a nice collection in their day through everyday commerce. Few kept any examples, though. Eric > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 4 15:56:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Z8000 Message-ID: <009e01c11d29$a752ca50$9b749a8d@ajp166> From: Eric J. Korpela >a Z8000. I toyed around a while with building an S100 bus processor card >for Z8000 (long after the both the chip and systems using the bus were no longer >in general production.) Never came to anything. I still have to processor >technical manual on my shelf. It's an interesting chip, but was a bit slower >than it needed to be. I have both Z8001(segmented) and Z8002(nonsegmented) parts both good for 10mhz. Not bad for parts in my bin fromt he mid80s. So much for speed. They are far better than 8088 programming wise. Allison From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Aug 4 16:26:39 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: RML 380Z References: <3B6A67E0.49EEE786@tinyworld.co.uk> <3B6A880E.68CA1567@aconit.org> <3B6C0A43.DA98C917@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3B6C688F.D957E862@tinyworld.co.uk> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Hans B Pufal wrote: > > > > Paul Williams wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have Vol. 1, No. 2 of this magazine, dated June 1978? > > > They reviewed the 380Z in that issue. > > > > I will dig out the article and scan it for you. > > OK, its up at http://www.aconit.org/PCW/rm380z.htm > > I ocr'd and converted to html, if anyone really wants the original > scans I can put those up too. Superb, thank you. Some of the characters seemed to be messed up, which I'm guessing is a character encoding problem. Did you scan it on a Mac? I'll contact you off-list about some typos that I couldn't decipher. I had wondered what the RML 280Z was, and that is also answered in that very comprehensive review. Cheers, Paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 12:59:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010803172903.025907a0@209.185.79.193> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 3, 1 05:36:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/0579514c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 13:03:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Z8000 In-Reply-To: <200108040116.f741GmE01883@bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Aug 3, 1 09:16:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 657 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/59f2cb11/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 13:06:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 3, 1 06:23:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/1ef371a9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 13:07:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 3, 1 06:25:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/d7b2f14a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 13:17:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <006101c11c92$fc6895c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 3, 1 09:10:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1699 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/490cb7dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 13:20:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Aug 3, 1 08:20:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1015 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/de08ecc0/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 4 16:34:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: VCF East makes The Economist (Vintage Computer Festival) References: Message-ID: <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 2, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Here's the web edition of an article on VCF East in The Economist: > > http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=719262 > > I don't know if the article is any longer in the print edition. I had to laugh at the first paragraph: "IT IS hard to love something made of grey plastic. Especially hard when it has a habit of crashing, deleting your work and spreading viruses." It sounds like Microsoft has the whole world convinced that all computers behave like PeeCees running Windows. I find this infuriating. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 4 16:47:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Z8000 In-Reply-To: Re: Z8000 (Tony Duell) References: <200108040116.f741GmE01883@bg-tc-ppp1461.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <15212.28032.504874.256019@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 4, Tony Duell wrote: > > The Z8000 included the Zilog (later Exxon Office Systems) Zeus office > > automation Unix boxes... > > Wasn't 'ZEUS' the operating system (Zilog Enhanced Unix System or > something like that). The machines had names like the 'S8000'. > > I have one. It's about 2' square, and built from 4 slices about 9" high > each. The bottom 2 slices are emtpy (well, one of them has the > distibution panel for the serial ports on the back). The next slice > contains the hard disk (am SMD-interfaced winchester, possibly Fujitsu), > and the tape drive (QIC11 IIRC). The top slice contains the card cage and > the logic PSU. The boards plug in on DIN 41612 connectors. That sounds like a Model 21 or 31. ZEUS is indeed the OS as you said above, Tony. The family is called System-8000, and the model numbers are 11, 21, and 31. The bus is called Zbus (big surprise there), and was designed with multiprocessing in mind...the hardware supported plugging in multiple processor boards, but the OS was never extended to handle multiprocessor operation. The bus was actually designed for the Z8000 and Z80,000 processors, and the spec was released separately, and then the System-8000 line was designed using that bus. The one I had, a Model 31, was mounted in the optional 6' rack. It consisted of the same "slices" that you referred to, but rack-mounted. At the top was a Zilog-labeled CDC Keystone magtape drive. The Model 11 didn't use those modular slices...it's a small deskside tower design. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 17:10:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Z8000 In-Reply-To: <15212.28032.504874.256019@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 4, 1 05:47:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010804/96388c4b/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 4 17:34:40 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010804030843.007a1670@mail.solutionengineers.co m> References: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010804153414.023baeb0@209.185.79.193> At 03:08 AM 8/4/01 +0100, you wrote: >At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K ?? eBay doesn't > >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice posting fee for that. Max listing fee is $3.30 so he could have a starting bid of $1,000,000 and still only pay $3.30 to list it. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 17:39:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've been surprised at the number of "collectors" who don't care a bit about whether an otherwise pristine piece of hardware is working or not. All they seem to care about is how "cool" it looks. Frankly, to me, a computer that doesn't compute is just a bunch of parts taking up more space than they should. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > > > > A big factor is the relative completeness of the unit. If a collector is > > supposed to want it, it must be really complete, with manuals, brocheures, > > diskettes, etc. A cheapie might be incomplete and non-fucntional as well. > > Collectors don't always demand the units be functional, but they do demand they > > be complete, at least so there are no obviously missing parts. > > I think this depends on the collector, or at least how you define > 'collector'. > > In my case, I want to be able to get the machine working. So I do care > about _some_ manuals. I don't need yet-another-learning-BASIC-book. I do > want schematics, ROM sources, memory maps, etc. System disks are, of > course, essential, but only if I don't already have them/can't get them. > > Ditto for missing parts. Obviously if PCBs are missing, etc then the > machine is good for parts only. But if it's missing 'cosmetic' parts like > nameplates, then that's fine. > > I don't care at all about advertising flyers. If they're with the machine > then of course I collect them and keep them carefully. But I wouldn't pay > extra to get them. They are just not that interesting to me. > > I've bought a few HP calculators cheaply from other collectors because > they're a bit beat-up. Damaged/missing labels, worn legends on the > keyboard overlay, etc. I can understand why these machines are worth less > than perfect examples, but they're ideal for what I want -- machines to > use and to take to bits and learn about. Actually, I'd rather have a few > more beat-up machines like this (provided I can get them working) than 1 > perfect example which I would probably be afraid to use, and certainly > wouldn't want to take a soldering iron to. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 17:41:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <15210.65391.45068.438721@phaduka.neurotica.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010804153414.023baeb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <012c01c11d36$9a045820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'd guess that the guy who listed this thing meant $250.00, but wasn't clever enough to figure out how to amend his listing without prejudice. Clearly he could have done that any time, since there were no bids. Lots of folks don't like to read the instructions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > At 03:08 AM 8/4/01 +0100, you wrote: > >At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: > > >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K ?? eBay doesn't > > >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice posting fee for that. > > Max listing fee is $3.30 so he could have a starting bid of $1,000,000 and > still only pay $3.30 to list it. > --Chuck > > > > > From reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu Sat Aug 4 18:04:56 2001 From: reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu (Reuben Reyes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:00 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This one on ebay went for $178.51 and it wont even power up. Go figure. I guess that why they call it e-PAY. Reuben On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Reuben Reyes wrote: > > How much is a Tektronix 31 worth? > > Last one that I saw, went for $1 > > From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 4 18:34:45 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: FSOT 2 References: <001f01c11d1d$88c42ea0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <000b01c11d3e$284b83e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Free for Postage else TOSS! BPI Systems General Accounting (Apple IIe SW w/5.25 media), (seems to function on a IIc), 1983 Computers in Space (f/kids,hardcover), Allen L. Wold, 1984 Paul Mace guide to Data Recovery (soft), 1988 Dvorak's Guide to PC Telecommunications (soft), 1990 John A. THX for the responses on the first wave. From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 4 18:38:51 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I've been surprised at the number of "collectors" who don't care a > bit about whether an otherwise pristine piece of hardware is working > or not. All they seem to care about is how "cool" it looks. The first thing I sold at VCFE was a non-working Apple III. The guy bought it before I could set it on the table. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 18:42:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 4, 1 04:39:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1212 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/fa9ccc73/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 18:45:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 In-Reply-To: from "Reuben Reyes" at Aug 4, 1 06:04:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 684 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/d0ac0953/attachment.ksh From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 4 19:17:04 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: VFC East on Slashdot Message-ID: <996970629.1596.4.camel@DESK-2> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/08/04/188216.shtml From claudew at videotron.ca Sat Aug 4 19:47:00 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Well I have been staying away from this discussion....but here are my 2 cents: 1- I dont mind defective machines because I fix them. Complete and unmodified defective is better than : scratches, dents, cracks and hacks and burnt crt's for me... 2-Ebay is crap for a buyer. The concept of the "auction" is something that advantages the seller...period I actually posted my first object on ebay (YES ME!) recently and I was ashamed a service manual for a Heathkit signal generator (1962) sold for $17.50US. When the winning bidder emailed, I told him I had 3 more Heathkit manuals that I offered to him for whatever he would give me...This is too much of a hassle for the few $ this brings in. Of course I let him have the manuals for whatever he offered...I dont know if Ill post other items, this is quite time consuming for the $s. My work brings in my money. My hobby is computer collecting (I have others...) and I dont let "money issues and dealings" get mixed into hobbies or they dont "feel like hobbies" anymore....no? But then again, thats just me... Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > > I've been surprised at the number of "collectors" who don't care a > > bit about whether an otherwise pristine piece of hardware is working > > or not. All they seem to care about is how "cool" it looks. > > The first thing I sold at VCFE was a non-working Apple III. > The guy bought it before I could set it on the table. > > John A. > > From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Aug 4 19:46:11 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Which Vax is This? Message-ID: <3B6C9752.7DAC7A73@idirect.com> While trying to solve my timing problem with a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 system, I thought it might be time to try one of the other BA123 boxes I have. It turns out it had an M7626 CPU inside complete with 3 M7622 memory boards and the correct 5016743 usual cabinet kit and Ethernet L4 50020061 cabinet kit with the spaghetti cable harness. The cable to the DSSI cabinet kit was there as well along with a 5 part cable for the memory (only four in use of course). One thing I am surprised about is just how few components there are on the M7662 CPU board. I see 3 inch square chips (2 with heat sinks on top) and 3 other somewhat smaller square chips (all 3 with heat sinks on top). There is also what seem to be a 114.285 MHz crystal. Is this correct? Is this the clock for the VAX CPU? There was also a few other boards like an RQDX3, a DHV11 and a DMV11. Each of these had their cabinet kits. Plus what is probably the parallel line printer M8020 module and its cabinet kit. While it is possible that I might eventually want to use it in a uVAX, it just seems too unlikely right now. Anyone interested in a trade? Or want to buy it? Otherwise, is there any way that I might be able to use one of these M7622 memory modules within a PDP-11 as a RAM disk. I remember that Megan Gentry once set up some old memory in that manner. Since there are three of these boards, maybe someone is interested in setting up the hardware for a couple of them and we could share the results by sharing the boards. I suspect that it would be quite interesting to have a RAM disk of 16 MBytes for a PDP-11. Actually, I think I have at least a couple of 4 MByte boards as well for a uVAX II, so even if it is not done with the M7622 boards, maybe with the others. Since the access to the memory is via the 50-pin cable over the top, any hardware designed for one such board should probably work on many other types as well. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Aug 4 19:50:18 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <3B6C4CB8.D416CADA@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3B6C984A.8578AED5@idirect.com> >Chad Fernandez wrote: > I would love to get ahold of a nice 4000-x00 Vax, hopefully a 500 or > better. I just havenb't gotten the right Vax or seller. I email a > seller with questions and they either don't get back with me, or don't > give complete info, or won't clarify something, or whatever. A lot of > times they are just to far away, demand that it goes my freight, won't > ship, or it goes for more than I want to spend, etc. > Maybe I'll just have to satified with my 3400 for now. > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA Jerome Fine replies: I just saw this post of yours. Maybe my find is the answer that I just posted to the list - the M7626 Vax CPU and other boards. All were in a BA123. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 4 19:59:01 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Which Vax is This? In-Reply-To: Which Vax is This? (Jerome Fine) References: <3B6C9752.7DAC7A73@idirect.com> Message-ID: <15212.39509.14704.994638@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 4, Jerome Fine wrote: > While trying to solve my timing problem with a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 system, > I thought it might be time to try one of the other BA123 boxes I have. It turns > out it had an M7626 CPU inside complete with 3 M7622 memory boards > and the correct 5016743 usual cabinet kit and Ethernet L4 50020061 cabinet > kit with the spaghetti cable harness. The cable to the DSSI cabinet kit was there > as well along with a 5 part cable for the memory (only four in use of course). Sounds like a KA660, VAX4000-200. 5VUPS. Nice little board, lots of bang for the buck these days. > One thing I am surprised about is just how few components there are on the > M7662 CPU board. I see 3 inch square chips (2 with heat sinks on top) > and 3 other somewhat smaller square chips (all 3 with heat sinks on top). > There is also what seem to be a 114.285 MHz crystal. Is this correct? > Is this the clock for the VAX CPU? Yup. It's divided by two for a clock of 57.1MHz. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Aug 4 19:21:02 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> References: Message-ID: >Vintage computer collecting is really no different from many other forms of >collecting, its simply less common. > >Vintage car buffs clearly are more advanced in their restoration and repair >Firearms collecting (in the USA) is probably the most similar form of >In all these forms of collecting, as well as stamps, coins, and any antiques, Two basic types of collector, those who assemble sets of items of value, whose value is enhanced by completeness of the set, and those who collect examples of fine craftsmanship and items of special merit compared to there contemporaries. Most of my favorite systems I would be collecting regardless if they are rare or common. Things I hunt down mostly because they are rare, often prove much less satisfying to own than to look for. From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Aug 4 20:51:18 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010805023741.00af0810@mail.solutionengineers.com> At 5 08 2001 01:47 am, Claude wrote: > 2-Ebay is crap for a buyer. The concept of the "auction" is something that > advantages the seller...period Well, yes and no. eBay has become good for the seller, mainly because there are people prepared to spend silly money on junk. It is nigh-on impossible to pick up a "bargain" on eBay these days. Auctions, however, are not solely for the benefit of the seller. To take a non-computing example, property auctions in the UK typically save the buyer a wedge compared to wandering down the local estate agent. In this case, both vendor and purchasor win to an extent: The vendor is more likely to sell his pile, the purchaser is more likely to get a bargain. I confess: I'm an eBay buyer, and I will continue (probably) to get stuff there. In the absence of suitable flea markets (unless: can anyone tell me where there are semi-regular boot sales et al in East London?), eBay represents the best source of old kit. OK, sometimes I end up paying silly money, but then - what *is* money? Maybe I'm lucky enough to have a decent income, but I'd rather have a bit of fun AND end up with some interesting stuff (much of which I intend to hang on to - not to make cash later, but because I'm interested in it), than trawl around in the rain looking for a "bargain". Looking at some of the other threads (what is a collector: depth vs. breadth), I see a bit of both in me. I started out looking for depth, and in the end I've gone for some breadth too. I *want* to re-build, in depth, systems I've personally used (MZ-80K, CBM8032, BBC 'B'/Master & QL in particular), but at the same time, I'm happy to tinker with stuff I've never used before... I've got 2 Epson PX-8's ATM. I've *never* seen one prior to picking them up on eBay... I'm not above a bit of soldering to repair a system either. But then I'm not going to make it my lifelong ambition to buy/acquire dead machines with a view to repairing them. Life's too short, and besides, I'm a klutz with a soldering iron... Anyway, before this turns into a life history / rant, I leave you with this: Some auctions are better than others... Yahoo seems to have plenty of sellers and few buyers, so maybe you can get a cheaper bit of kit over there? Not that there's much PDP-x kit, mind... -- Cheers! Ade. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Aug 4 20:45:18 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <012c01c11d36$9a045820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: You can't ammend the starting price unless you close the auction and then relist it - which could get you a posting fee if it doesn't go the second time around. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 5:41 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> I'd guess that the guy who listed this thing meant $250.00, but -> wasn't clever -> enough to figure out how to amend his listing without prejudice. -> Clearly he -> could have done that any time, since there were no bids. Lots -> of folks don't -> like to read the instructions. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Chuck McManis" -> To: -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:34 PM -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> -> -> > At 03:08 AM 8/4/01 +0100, you wrote: -> > >At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: -> > > >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K -> ?? eBay doesn't -> > > >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice -> posting fee for that. -> > -> > Max listing fee is $3.30 so he could have a starting bid of -> $1,000,000 and -> > still only pay $3.30 to list it. -> > --Chuck -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> -> From rdd at smart.net Sat Aug 4 21:49:46 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > It sounds like Microsoft has the whole world convinced that all > computers behave like PeeCees running Windows. I find this > infuriating. ...and it also shows what incompetent loonies the publishers of biz rags like the Economist apparently are, to actually believe that all computers crash frequently and are unreliable like Windoze PeeCees. Talk about incompetent journalism! ...and just think who this biz rags readers are, and how much influence over things these biz droids have, when their combined intellect is, by current estimates, many magnitues lower than the combined intellect of Larry, Moe and Curly (The Three Stooges), nyuck, nyuck, nyuck... -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 21:32:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <016001c11d56$ef1af9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> How sure are you of this? I do recall reading on their site that there's a way to make corrections, under a heading somewhat like "what if I mistype ...?" I can see why they'd do things the way you suggest, however. They do make their money from the listing fees after all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 7:45 PM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > You can't ammend the starting price unless you close the auction and then > relist it - which could get you a posting fee if it doesn't go the second > time around. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 5:41 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness > -> > -> > -> I'd guess that the guy who listed this thing meant $250.00, but > -> wasn't clever > -> enough to figure out how to amend his listing without prejudice. > -> Clearly he > -> could have done that any time, since there were no bids. Lots > -> of folks don't > -> like to read the instructions. > -> > -> Dick > -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> From: "Chuck McManis" > -> To: > -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:34 PM > -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness > -> > -> > -> > At 03:08 AM 8/4/01 +0100, you wrote: > -> > >At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: > -> > > >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K > -> ?? eBay doesn't > -> > > >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice > -> posting fee for that. > -> > > -> > Max listing fee is $3.30 so he could have a starting bid of > -> $1,000,000 and > -> > still only pay $3.30 to list it. > -> > --Chuck > -> > > -> > > -> > > -> > > -> > > -> > -> > > From rdd at smart.net Sat Aug 4 21:57:05 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > contemporaries. Most of my favorite systems I would be collecting > regardless if they are rare or common. Things I hunt down mostly because > they are rare, often prove much less satisfying to own than to look for. Apparently I'm not a collector. I just acquire systems, some which happen to be classics, from time to time that I think would be fun to hack around with or would be useful. I'm also not adverse to making any modifications necessary to make them useful, or more useful, to me, which would make them less valuable to some collectors. These systems were made to be hacked on, not put on display never to be used again. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 4 21:42:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <4.3.2.7.0.20010805023741.00af0810@mail.solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <016601c11d58$3431efe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have to agree that there's advantage to the seller, but there's advantage to the buyer as well. First of all, how else can you find what you want with a simple search? Secondly, how else could you find the stuff sorted by the criteria that you demand? Thirdly, I've never seen stuff I needed for my system that I use every day in the flea markets, yet I've been able to snag a couple of GB of SDRAM in 128MB and 256MB chunks, for somewhere on the order of half what I'd have had to pay locally. I guarantee that the flea market won't contain stuff like that. Ebay seems to facilitate distress merchandise liquidation. When I bought those 256M SDRAMs, the same things were priced at $60+ at Costco and $49 at MEI, with a rebate that one might or might not get, but 7.8% sales tax besides, which offsets shipping for sure. I just passed up a 9.1 GB HDD in the original packing and sealed bag that was at $12 or so today. Now, I don't know what the HDD will sell for, ultimately, but I have yet to pay >$5, shipped, for the 1GB types I use in trays instead of JAZ media. I bought a PII heatsink with two fans for $7.95 shipped, with two fans suitable for two socket-7 heatsinks that had flakey fans, and all from my chair, with nary a phone call or automobile ride. That may not be everyone's luck, but I've been smiled upon, I guess. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ade Vickers" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > At 5 08 2001 01:47 am, Claude wrote: > > > 2-Ebay is crap for a buyer. The concept of the "auction" is something that > > advantages the seller...period > > Well, yes and no. > > eBay has become good for the seller, mainly because there are people > prepared to spend silly money on junk. It is nigh-on impossible to pick up > a "bargain" on eBay these days. > > Auctions, however, are not solely for the benefit of the seller. To take a > non-computing example, property auctions in the UK typically save the buyer > a wedge compared to wandering down the local estate agent. In this case, > both vendor and purchasor win to an extent: The vendor is more likely to > sell his pile, the purchaser is more likely to get a bargain. > > I confess: I'm an eBay buyer, and I will continue (probably) to get stuff > there. In the absence of suitable flea markets (unless: can anyone tell me > where there are semi-regular boot sales et al in East London?), eBay > represents the best source of old kit. > > OK, sometimes I end up paying silly money, but then - what *is* money? > Maybe I'm lucky enough to have a decent income, but I'd rather have a bit > of fun AND end up with some interesting stuff (much of which I intend to > hang on to - not to make cash later, but because I'm interested in it), > than trawl around in the rain looking for a "bargain". > > Looking at some of the other threads (what is a collector: depth vs. > breadth), I see a bit of both in me. I started out looking for depth, and > in the end I've gone for some breadth too. I *want* to re-build, in depth, > systems I've personally used (MZ-80K, CBM8032, BBC 'B'/Master & QL in > particular), but at the same time, I'm happy to tinker with stuff I've > never used before... I've got 2 Epson PX-8's ATM. I've *never* seen one > prior to picking them up on eBay... > > I'm not above a bit of soldering to repair a system either. But then I'm > not going to make it my lifelong ambition to buy/acquire dead machines with > a view to repairing them. Life's too short, and besides, I'm a klutz with a > soldering iron... > > Anyway, before this turns into a life history / rant, I leave you with > this: Some auctions are better than others... Yahoo seems to have plenty of > sellers and few buyers, so maybe you can get a cheaper bit of kit over > there? Not that there's much PDP-x kit, mind... > -- > Cheers! > Ade. > > From rdd at smart.net Sat Aug 4 22:01:29 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Claude.W wrote: > My work brings in my money. My hobby is computer collecting (I have > others...) and I dont let "money issues and dealings" get mixed into hobbies > or they dont "feel like hobbies" anymore....no? > > But then again, thats just me... Well said! I agree completely. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jrice at texoma.net Sat Aug 4 22:06:26 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness nad a Vax 11/780 References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <4.3.2.7.0.20010805023741.00af0810@mail.solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <3B6CB832.13C44423@texoma.net> I also buy on eBay. I don't have the time to scrounge all over the state, much less all over the country for the last few bits to finish a system. Sometimes I get a real bargain, sometimes I pay too much, but it all evens out in the end. I am privileged to live in Dallas, TX, where we have several very good surplus store, two computer flea markets (bias toward PC stuff), and a lot of companies that seem to surplus off a lot of hardware very regularly. But I still turn to eBay for a lot of pieces. On another note, I talked to the guy with the Vax 11/780-5. It seems complete, it consists on one main cabinet stuffed to the max with boards and several auxiliary cabinets. I know nothing about Vaxen, and he said he doesn't have time to investigate it for anyone. If they want it, they either need to come and get it or arrange for shipping. He would palletize it for a nominal fee. Email me for contact info, and then you're on your own. James > I confess: I'm an eBay buyer, and I will continue (probably) to get stuff > there. In the absence of suitable flea markets (unless: can anyone tell me > where there are semi-regular boot sales et al in East London?), eBay > represents the best source of old kit. From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 4 22:47:17 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! References: Message-ID: <070e01c11d61$93c85ee0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I'm still curious if this machine is the Apple one ... >From the Cray FAQ: { What was the Cray connection with Apple ? Cray and Apple, seemly at opposite ends of the computer spectrum, do have some subtle links. It was known that Seymour Cray used an Apple desktop some of the time when designing the Cray-2. It is also known that Apple had a sequence of Cray machines starting in March 1986 with an XMP/28 followed by another XMP in Feb 1991. A YMP-2E arrived later in 1991 and finally an EL from Dec 1993 to Jun 98. It is said that Apples first XMP was bought by Steve Jobs after he just walked into the Cray facility in Mendota Hights. } So Jobs could have still bought the first machine, the XMP, the other machines arriving later and the EL making the pilgrimage to MIT (the ebay seller has an MIT email address..) Regards, Heinz "Francis. Javier Mesa" wrote: > An ol' friend of mine that worked at Apple told me the machine was used > mostly not only for plastic molding (it seems it actually is a pretty > interesting/intensive process), but also for motherboard design, as in > placement/routing and more important thermal symulations. > > The machine was an YMP, not at EL thus I am afraid that the machine the > guy is selling was never employed at apple. How did it end up in Boston > from Cupertino? The machine was bought in the 80s (before Jobs left > obviously) thus again it can not be an EL, since that line was introduced > in the early nineties I seem to remember. I wonder if Apple still have > their cray around, my friend told me that it was visible from the lobby of > one of the buildings.... From Randbcomputers at aol.com Sat Aug 4 23:38:04 2001 From: Randbcomputers at aol.com (Randbcomputers@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts Message-ID: <3e.f6f12ae.289e27ac@aol.com> I am looking for a monitor cable to fit an apple IIgs computer. The cable that I need is a 15-pin (2 row) double ended cable. The monitor is a 12" RGB monitor, I beileve.. am not sure of the monitor size but it is an RGB monitor. I would be interested in knowing if you still have the system. Would you be interested in getting rid of just the monitor cable? Thank you for your time. Sincerely Toby Bibeau R & B Computers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/21c5992d/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 4 23:52:56 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010805023741.00af0810@mail.solutionengineers.com> References: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >eBay has become good for the seller, mainly because there are people >prepared to spend silly money on junk. It is nigh-on impossible to pick up >a "bargain" on eBay these days. Actually I've done pretty good lately at finding some bargains, it partially depends on what you're looking for. Also, out of the last several auctions I've participated in, I've actually used "Buy it now" in most of them. One item, a copy of VAX/VMS V5.2 Internals and Data Structures, was about $10 cheaper than I've ever seen it! >I confess: I'm an eBay buyer, and I will continue (probably) to get stuff >there. In the absence of suitable flea markets (unless: can anyone tell me >where there are semi-regular boot sales et al in East London?), eBay >represents the best source of old kit. It's not just East London. Unless you're in the NE USA (and I really doubt even then) where else are you going to find any amount of DEC documenation, or many of the other items that you find on eBay? I've a HUGE library of DEC documenation, and a fair amount of it came off of eBay (usually in big chunks, the biggest being my OpenVMS V6.1 Full Doc set which I got for a song, but shipping was murder). Same with all my OpenVMS ConDist's. In fact I've hardly purchased any hardware on eBay, other than a couple of DEC PCI SCSI controllers that will work with OpenVMS. Although I am starting to buy Arcade and Video Game stuff on eBay, again I'm getting it cheaper than I could otherwise, assuming I could even find it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 5 00:10:36 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: <200108050509.WAA20791@mail.telisphere.com> Minus the Hayes 300 that's still in storage, here's a complete Hayes Stack. http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/stack.jpg A friend of mine found the Optima 9600 for me today at a local thrift shop. Unless there is another device that Hayes made in this same aluminum extrusion, this IS the whole set. Now all I need is a DC Hayes 300 S100 modem. :) Thanks to Jeff & Don for helping complete the collection. g. -- http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 5 00:29:39 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: <3B6CD9C3.D3D96BF8@internet1.net> Claude, Claude.W wrote: > 2-Ebay is crap for a buyer. The concept of the "auction" is something that > advantages the seller...period How can this be so? Your description below sounds to me, like the buyer got a preety good deal! It can work both ways. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA > > I actually posted my first object on ebay (YES ME!) recently and I was > ashamed a service manual for a Heathkit signal generator (1962) sold for > $17.50US. > > When the winning bidder emailed, I told him I had 3 more Heathkit manuals > that I offered to him for whatever he would give me...This is too much of a > hassle for the few $ this brings in. Of course I let him have the manuals > for whatever he offered...I dont know if Ill post other items, this is quite > time consuming for the $s. > > My work brings in my money. My hobby is computer collecting (I have > others...) and I dont let "money issues and dealings" get mixed into hobbies > or they dont "feel like hobbies" anymore....no? > > But then again, thats just me... > > Claude From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Sun Aug 5 00:43:04 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <070e01c11d61$93c85ee0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: > So Jobs could have still bought the first machine, the XMP, the other > machines > arriving later and the EL making the pilgrimage to MIT (the ebay seller has > an MIT > email address..) I was wondering that too, I wasn't aware that apple ever had an EL. But I think somebody pointed out that there were two cray's on sale on EBAY both of the sellers claimed that their machine came from apple (I still don't understand why that makes a difference....). Cheers _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From technos at nerdland.org Sun Aug 5 02:15:01 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... Message-ID: <01C11D5C.D0E99410.technos@nerdland.org> Hayes also made an Optima in 14.4 in the same aluminum clamshell. I had one way back when. At least I could *swear* it was a 14.4.. It's been a long time, and I've had dozens of Hayes. I'm now using the 56K version with the clone plastic clamshell, in fact. Jim On Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:11 AM, Gene Buckle [SMTP:geneb@deltasoft.com] wrote: > Minus the Hayes 300 that's still in storage, here's a complete Hayes > Stack. > > http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/stack.jpg > > A friend of mine found the Optima 9600 for me today at a local thrift > > shop. > > Unless there is another device that Hayes made in this same aluminum > extrusion, this IS the whole set. > > Now all I need is a DC Hayes 300 S100 modem. :) > > Thanks to Jeff & Don for helping complete the collection. > > g. > > -- > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jss at subatomix.com Sun Aug 5 02:32:34 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010805023741.00af0810@mail.solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <20010805022828.E32931-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Ade Vickers wrote: > > At 5 08 2001 01:47 am, Claude wrote: > > > > 2-Ebay is crap for a buyer. The concept of the "auction" is something > > that advantages the seller...period > > eBay has become good for the seller, mainly because there are people > prepared to spend silly money on junk. And to those silly people, eBay seems good for a buyer. They'll harp on and on about the wonderful, convenient selection. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Aug 5 01:25:51 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts In-Reply-To: <3e.f6f12ae.289e27ac@aol.com> Message-ID: >I am looking for a monitor cable to fit an apple IIgs computer. The cable >that I need is a 15-pin (2 row) double ended cable. The monitor is a 12" RGB >monitor, I beileve.. am not sure of the monitor size but it is an RGB >monitor. I would be interested in knowing if you still have the system. >Would >you be interested in getting rid of just the monitor cable? Thank you for >your time. >Sincerely >Toby Bibeau >R & B Computers I keep all the Apple and Mac cables in stock, including the IIgs RGB video cable. Are you sure you have a IIgs RGB monitor, I think its model A2M6014? Anyway the IIgs RGB cables are $5 plus $4 shipping. Email me directly and I can ship one out, or if you hunt around old apple and mac stuff they aren't too rare. The easy way to spot them is that most of the pins are missing. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Aug 5 01:30:05 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <200108050509.WAA20791@mail.telisphere.com> References: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: >Minus the Hayes 300 that's still in storage, here's a complete Hayes >Stack. > >http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/stack.jpg Wow thats going to save me a lot of time. I've been digging in every pile of modem looking extruded cases I find for the last year or so, and now I know not to bother with any regular height case. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Aug 5 01:40:41 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <002001c11d48$272d1000$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001701c11d3e$9e390780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >I actually posted my first object on ebay (YES ME!) recently and I was >ashamed a service manual for a Heathkit signal generator (1962) sold for >$17.50US. The important point is that you didn't want the manuals, and someone who did now has them PLUS you get some compesation for the time and expense of shipping. You don't have to charge the person the full winning bid amount, several times I have informed winning bidders that the bid was too high and offered a lower price. If you want a simpler transaction just box up like items and sell them a box at a time. From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Aug 5 03:13:37 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <01C11D5C.D0E99410.technos@nerdland.org>; from technos@nerdland.org on Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 03:15:01AM -0400 References: <01C11D5C.D0E99410.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <20010805031337.E7314@mrbill.net> On Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 03:15:01AM -0400, Jim Tuck wrote: > Hayes also made an Optima in 14.4 in the same > aluminum clamshell. I had one way back when. They went up to 28.8, I think, but the newer ones were MUCH cheaper made, and used tiny LED instead of the big huge ones in the SmartModem 300, etc. I still have my first SM300, in the original box. Was the first modem I ever owned. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From matt at knm.yi.org Sun Aug 5 04:00:57 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:01 2005 Subject: DSSI Terminator Message-ID: Hi, I got a MicroVAX 3300 earlier in the year - a nice little(ish) box, but I was thinking the other day - It should have a terminator for the DSSI, which it doesn't have. The guy I bought it from had (at one point) had an expansion cabinate (he scrapped it!) which presumably had the terminator in :&/ So basically, I was wondering if anyone out there has a spare DSSI terminator, or as these as I suspect - very similar to gold dust -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 5 06:45:53 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option References: <002701a8eb0e$e3f56d60$0301a8c0@marga> Message-ID: <3B6D31F1.12DB@xs4all.nl> Sergio, The board was for sale....But yes, it could only be used with an 11/23+ or the 11/24 (they have the same CPU chipset). There is a flatcable which you put in one of the empty slots of the CPU card, and that's it basically. Ed SP wrote: > > Hello. I have a new question if somebody could answer it. > Actually on eBay is one M8188 board for sale, knowed too > like a FDF11 (Floating Point Processor) option (at least > this is what I deduct from the info that I've found in the Internet). > > The question is easy: Is this board useful to put it in one > system with the m8189 board (KDF11-B or PDP-11/23 PLUS) ? > > It appears like this board could only be connected into one > KDF11-A, or symply in another system different of the PLUS. > > Thanks in advance for the answer. > > Greetings and Best Regards from Spain. > > Sergio -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Aug 5 04:44:36 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: PDP8 tutorials? Message-ID: <20010805044436.A29902@mrbill.net> Anybody have a link to an online reference for someone who's never touched a pdp8 before? I just found the AWESOME PDP8 Simulator for MacOS X on www.emulation.net, so NOW I WANNA PLAY. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From r.stek at snet.net Sun Aug 5 06:48:32 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist Message-ID: <002001c11da4$8da7f000$0301a8c0@bob> BTW, I am gratified that the author of this piece noticed the authenticity of the two empty Coke cans and the twinkies I left on top of my Sol at VCF East. As Sherlock Holmes said, "It is, of course, a trifle, but there is nothing so important as trifles." Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From piedro at yucom.be Sun Aug 5 06:57:30 2001 From: piedro at yucom.be (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pi=EBdro_Vander_Steene?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 mains adapter Message-ID: hello, my name is Piedro Vander Steene from Belgium. I'm having an old amstrad PPC512 that still is working, but i don't have any disks to start the machine up. Neither have i a manual. Is there someone who could help me please ? THANKS ! piedro@yucom.be -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/9e032e51/attachment.html From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Sun Aug 5 04:54:52 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Possible to read Amiga disks on a PC? Yes, actually Message-ID: Hi, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but there is apparently a program that allows Amiga floppy disks to be read on a PC with standard floppy controller and two floppy drives. The same technique can to some extent be applied to read other "exotic" disk formats. Take a look at http://fast.emuunlin.com/disk2fdi/index.html If you download the disk2fdi archive, there is an MS Word-format document (ugh) that describes the technical details. It's quite clever. -- Mark From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 4 20:10:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 Message-ID: <913.617T1350T1305059optimus@canit.se> Went to the junkyard with a mate today and found (well, stepped on) an ugly HP something. It's a HP 9000 (Yay!) 226 (?h?), which is a clumsy box with a small CRT and a 5?" floppy as well as an integrated keyboard. This unit had been retired from the telemonopoly (well, all the stickers date back to that time), which ad apparently modified it into some kind of luggable workstation by putting a biug brass handle which seems to have come off a door on one side of the unit. Apart from the handle, it has been equipped with an RS-232 interface and additional memory cards, adding up to roughly 1,7 MB. The unit powers up fine, the screen looks nice, but the keyboard has been massacred, with five or six keys missing. But now what? The system is looking for a system. What system does it run, and is software obtainable anywhere? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer programmers know how to use their hardware. From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 5 09:40:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 isdead" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447.617T500T9404393optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On 4 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Apart from the extremely short-lived Commodore 900, were there any other >> Z8000 based systems? >I think that Olivetti did one. >Did anyone ever build a 65000 based system? Apple IIGS and the Nintendo SNES for two. Or is the 65000 another processor than the 65xxx I'm thinking of? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/44MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 5 07:04:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <007901c11cb6$9573bba0$0200a8c0@at.home> Message-ID: <614.617T2900T7846437optimus@canit.se> Duncan Entwisle skrev: >Have you ever mistyped a comma rather than a period when entering a number >in Ebay, and then (stupidly) forgotten to check the number before >continuing? I have :-) I then had hyperventolated (sp?) while I tried to >figure out how to retract my bid! That's certainly happened to me while hopping between ebay.de and ebay.co.uk. =( -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. We have support for the PMAGC-B's on pmax right? That is a PixelVision based card right? I see Bt 463, that chip looks bigger than the 21164! Just looking at it makes me want to write an Xserver! Chris Tribo, NetBSD/pmax From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 5 07:40:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <011e01c11d36$49a564a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <1624.617T1200T8204681optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >I've been surprised at the number of "collectors" who don't care a bit about >whether an otherwise pristine piece of hardware is working or not. All they >seem to care about is how "cool" it looks. Frankly, to me, a computer that >doesn't compute is just a bunch of parts taking up more space than they >should. As for me, I'm very interested in the aesthetic part of computing. I love my Goldstar HC-200 MSX, even though it's been absolutely smashed internally. After all, it's got such a colourful keyboard and a light pen holder. If it worked, it would be even more fun, but even as it is, I sometimes take it out and just admire it. I'm an accumulator in the sense that I take just about every computer I come across. OTOH, it's not a matter of keeping my old computer (though I still own each and every one I've bought), instead I keep lookout in Usenet, on the web, talk to people or go to the junkyard in order to make my collection grow. But the state of a system is secondary to the system itself. If it works and is cosmetically perfect, it's great, but even if not, who knows, one day I might run across a complementary system so that I might restore it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. It's amazing how many useful pieces of equipment are disguised as domestic appliances: the machine for cleaning keyboard keycaps and shell cases does an excellent job of washing clothes, while the tumbling machine for drying them off also works for socks and shirts. The device in the kitchen for baking small spray-painted articles can be used for pizza and muffins. And so on... Pete Turnbull From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 5 08:47:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I was wondering that too, I wasn't aware that apple ever had an EL. But I >think somebody pointed out that there were two cray's on sale on EBAY both >of the sellers claimed that their machine came from apple (I still don't >understand why that makes a difference....). It's not that it makes a difference but normally one doesn't find a whole Cray for sale on eBay and now suddenly there are two, one in Boston and one in Germany, and both were claimed to have come from Apple. I thought it wasinteresting. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 5 08:55:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <1624.617T1200T8204681optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <003701c11db6$3f4dc800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm only gradually coming to appreciate that there are who, like you, enjoy just HAVING a given machine. My attitude has always been that a computer isn't a computer unless it computes. Clearly, that's not the only point of view. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >I've been surprised at the number of "collectors" who don't care a bit about > >whether an otherwise pristine piece of hardware is working or not. All they > >seem to care about is how "cool" it looks. Frankly, to me, a computer that > >doesn't compute is just a bunch of parts taking up more space than they > >should. > > As for me, I'm very interested in the aesthetic part of computing. I love my > Goldstar HC-200 MSX, even though it's been absolutely smashed internally. > After all, it's got such a colourful keyboard and a light pen holder. If it > worked, it would be even more fun, but even as it is, I sometimes take it out > and just admire it. > I'm an accumulator in the sense that I take just about every computer I come > across. OTOH, it's not a matter of keeping my old computer (though I still own > each and every one I've bought), instead I keep lookout in Usenet, on the web, > talk to people or go to the junkyard in order to make my collection grow. But > the state of a system is secondary to the system itself. If it works and is > cosmetically perfect, it's great, but even if not, who knows, one day I might > run across a complementary system so that I might restore it. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > It's amazing how many useful pieces of equipment are disguised as domestic > appliances: the machine for cleaning keyboard keycaps and shell cases does an > excellent job of washing clothes, while the tumbling machine for drying them > off also works for socks and shirts. The device in the kitchen for baking > small spray-painted articles can be used for pizza and muffins. And so on... > Pete Turnbull > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 5 11:28:43 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! References: Message-ID: <3B6D743B.2A44@xs4all.nl> Strange, in the text of the German machine is not claimed that it may have come from Apple. Maybe a result of a mixup of the two item numbers? The German one afaik only uses some pictures referring to a similar machine in the USA (not the other one on ebay). Ed Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >I was wondering that too, I wasn't aware that apple ever had an EL. But I > >think somebody pointed out that there were two cray's on sale on EBAY both > >of the sellers claimed that their machine came from apple (I still don't > >understand why that makes a difference....). > > It's not that it makes a difference but normally one doesn't > find a whole Cray for sale on eBay and now suddenly there are two, > one in Boston and one in Germany, and both were claimed to have come > from Apple. I thought it wasinteresting. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 5 09:51:25 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You pay your final value fee based on the closing auction amount, not on what you discount it for. Granted the FVF system has a credit system but you have to know it's there and go thru the motions with it. If they put a crazy amount up in proxy then they should be prepared to pay anything between the bottom and top of that. If you want a cap on price you can also post it as a buy-it-now (same as beginning bid) and that way you tell them from the beginning that you just want that amount, not anymore than that. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:41 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> >I actually posted my first object on ebay (YES ME!) recently and I was -> >ashamed a service manual for a Heathkit signal generator (1962) sold for -> >$17.50US. -> -> The important point is that you didn't want the manuals, and someone who -> did now has them PLUS you get some compesation for the time and -> expense of -> shipping. You don't have to charge the person the full winning -> bid amount, -> several times I have informed winning bidders that the bid was -> too high and -> offered a lower price. -> -> If you want a simpler transaction just box up like items and sell them a -> box at a time. -> -> -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 5 10:01:33 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <3B6D743B.2A44@xs4all.nl> References: <3B6D743B.2A44@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >Strange, in the text of the German machine is not claimed that it may >have come from Apple. Maybe a result of a mixup of the two item numbers? I posted the URL for the Boston machine and then the next day Heinz Wolter posted the URL for the German Cray. In his post, he stated that the seller was claiming it came from Apple. That is where I took that information from, as I can't read German. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 5 10:07:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <003701c11db6$3f4dc800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <1624.617T1200T8204681optimus@canit.se> <003701c11db6$3f4dc800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >I'm only gradually coming to appreciate that there are who, like >you, enjoy just >HAVING a given machine. My attitude has always been that a computer isn't a >computer unless it computes. Clearly, that's not the only point of view. I have a few machines that I'll occasionally just sit and admire, mainly the NeXT and the SOL-20 but on an asthetic level I tend to find specific boards just as pleasing to look at as various machines. There's just something about a well planned, well layed out design, such as the mainboard of the Apple II or II+ or the minimalist approach taken by the ZX-81. Amiga Zorro II/III boards tend to be well layed out as well due to thier size. Asthetic's plays a large role in most collector hobbies so I am not suprised that it's becoming a factor in this one as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 5 10:07:41 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <016001c11d56$ef1af9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Once an auction is started there are a couple things that are locked and non-editable. Buy-it-now and reserve are changeable but starting bid is locked. Location is locked. You can edit title, description, pictures, and much more but not location or starting bid. If you blow it on this then you have to close the auction early and the either redo the listing or use the "relist" found on the closed page. I know this for sure after 3 yrs and over 250 posts just on this ebay account I have. There have been both loosenings on aspects as well as tighenings in various areas. Ebay has made some good changes, some bad but it all seems to balance and if it didn't it wouldn't have the buyer/seller base it does after just a few short years. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 9:33 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> How sure are you of this? I do recall reading on their site -> that there's a way -> to make corrections, under a heading somewhat like "what if I -> mistype ...?" -> -> I can see why they'd do things the way you suggest, however. -> They do make their -> money from the listing fees after all. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Russ Blakeman" -> To: -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 7:45 PM -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> -> -> > You can't ammend the starting price unless you close the -> auction and then -> > relist it - which could get you a posting fee if it doesn't go -> the second -> > time around. -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> Richard Erlacher -> > -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 5:41 PM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> I'd guess that the guy who listed this thing meant $250.00, but -> > -> wasn't clever -> > -> enough to figure out how to amend his listing without prejudice. -> > -> Clearly he -> > -> could have done that any time, since there were no bids. Lots -> > -> of folks don't -> > -> like to read the instructions. -> > -> -> > -> Dick -> > -> -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- -> > -> From: "Chuck McManis" -> > -> To: -> > -> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:34 PM -> > -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> > At 03:08 AM 8/4/01 +0100, you wrote: -> > -> > >At 07:53 pm 03/08/2001 -0500, you wrote: -> > -> > > >I w onder what the posting fee is on a starting bid of $25K -> > -> ?? eBay doesn't -> > -> > > >care if he doesn't get a bid either, they make a nice -> > -> posting fee for that. -> > -> > -> > -> > Max listing fee is $3.30 so he could have a starting bid of -> > -> $1,000,000 and -> > -> > still only pay $3.30 to list it. -> > -> > --Chuck -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> > -> -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Aug 5 11:02:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225594@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I have a few machines that I'll occasionally just sit and > admire, mainly the NeXT and the SOL-20 but on an asthetic level I > tend to find specific boards just as pleasing to look at as various > machines. There's just something about a well planned, well layed > out design, such as the mainboard of the Apple II or II+ or the > minimalist approach taken by the ZX-81. Amiga Zorro II/III boards > tend to be well layed out as well due to thier size. George Morrow's board designs always did this for me; I have an EconoRAM III 16K dynamic board and an early WunderBUSS in an Objective Design extruded aluminum frame. Which reminds me: has anyone written up the electrolytic capacitor reconditioning instruction into a FAQ? -dq From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 5 11:15:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <002c01c11dc9$e35c6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That "buy-it-now" mechanism doesn't really serve as a price cap. I wish it would, but ... What happens is the "buy-it-now" option goes away once a bid, no matter how low or high, has been placed, and I've seen numerous things auction off at prices well above the "buy-it-now" price. Perhaps that would work better if folks had the option available until there was a bid above the "buy-it-now" level, but that's not the way it works. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:51 AM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > You pay your final value fee based on the closing auction amount, not on > what you discount it for. Granted the FVF system has a credit system but you > have to know it's there and go thru the motions with it. If they put a crazy > amount up in proxy then they should be prepared to pay anything between the > bottom and top of that. If you want a cap on price you can also post it as a > buy-it-now (same as beginning bid) and that way you tell them from the > beginning that you just want that amount, not anymore than that. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:41 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness > -> > -> > -> >I actually posted my first object on ebay (YES ME!) recently and I was > -> >ashamed a service manual for a Heathkit signal generator (1962) sold for > -> >$17.50US. > -> > -> The important point is that you didn't want the manuals, and someone who > -> did now has them PLUS you get some compesation for the time and > -> expense of > -> shipping. You don't have to charge the person the full winning > -> bid amount, > -> several times I have informed winning bidders that the bid was > -> too high and > -> offered a lower price. > -> > -> If you want a simpler transaction just box up like items and sell them a > -> box at a time. > -> > -> > -> > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 5 11:21:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225594@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <003601c11dca$bd75d560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Is the EconoRam a George Morrow design? I have four EconoRams that are Bill Godbout/CompuPro products. Mine are 16K SRAMs, in this case, loaded with 2147's. I also have a completely new/unused (not in the box, but never used) WunderBuss somewhere. I'm not even certain it was ever assembled. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 10:02 AM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > > I have a few machines that I'll occasionally just sit and > > admire, mainly the NeXT and the SOL-20 but on an asthetic level I > > tend to find specific boards just as pleasing to look at as various > > machines. There's just something about a well planned, well layed > > out design, such as the mainboard of the Apple II or II+ or the > > minimalist approach taken by the ZX-81. Amiga Zorro II/III boards > > tend to be well layed out as well due to thier size. > > George Morrow's board designs always did this for me; I have an > EconoRAM III 16K dynamic board and an early WunderBUSS in an > Objective Design extruded aluminum frame. > > Which reminds me: has anyone written up the electrolytic capacitor > reconditioning instruction into a FAQ? > > -dq > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 5 11:38:17 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <20010805031337.E7314@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200108051637.JAA14235@mail.telisphere.com> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 03:13:37 -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: >On Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 03:15:01AM -0400, Jim Tuck wrote: >> Hayes also made an Optima in 14.4 in the same >> aluminum clamshell. I had one way back when. > >They went up to 28.8, I think, but the newer ones were >MUCH cheaper made, and used tiny LED instead of the big >huge ones in the SmartModem 300, etc. Oh this just sucks. Now I have to get a 14.4 _and_ a 28.8 to complete the set? *bangs head on table* Any more nasty surprises out there? :) g. -- http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 5 11:50:46 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? References: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3B6D7966.CF4795DF@tiac.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Generally, the term 'serious collectors' is used to describe the minority of > >people who go for depth over bredth. > > Personally, I would have to disagree. I don't believe the > scope of one's collection, whether it be a collection that goes after > every single item connected to a single type or machine or whether it > tries to cover every specific machine from a given period, has much > to do with whether or not someone is a 'serious' collector. I'm only describing the terms used in other forms of collecting. You may argue that their common usage should not apply to classic computer collecting, but thats really a different matter completely. > It's the > effort put forth and the overall quest for knowledge and > understanding of the systems collected that marks one as a serious > collector vice the person who goes out and buys a system/systems, > stashes it aways somewhere and never truly tries to learn about and > understand what they've accumalated. I totally agree. Each system you collect may contain a whole world of unique features, software and hardware design styles, etc. Some people would prefer to have some familiarity with many different designs, and others perfer to fully understand their systems. Its simply a matter of style, and I don't personally advocate one style over another. In fact, each style of collecting complements the other, and that was the point I was trying to express. See, if someone needs a part to repair a system that completes their 'serious' collection in some way, they can usually trade something, perhaps something more 'valuable' or collectable to another collector who has the needed part, but does not value it as deeply as the first collector. The first collector gets his 'needed' part, and the second collector gets a very sweet deal in their own eyes. So whats the problem here? > I've gone for quite a broad > collection, covering the first 10 years or so of the microcomputer > era, but I would call myself a serious collector. It is here for my > enjoyment and to learn all I can concerning each machine. To me, the > statement you've made above is trying to put down those who's > interest are broader in scope. I do agree though that both types of > collectors are needed. > > Jeff Well Sir, it was not my intention to put anything or anyone down, nor to cast a better light on any specific style of computer collecting. Personally, if you enjoy learning all you can about each system, I'd assume you were a 'serious' collector. This would suggest to me that you probably jump at the chance to get all the options and features for the items in your collection, etc. Myself, I'm an accumulator, bigtime. I do have a small 'serious collection' within my larger accumulation (of the original 'family of three' early HP mini's), and a much too large selection of Apollo gear, but then there are systems I just 'had to have', or that earned a special place in my heart, like me ELF-II. Most of these have nothing to do with HP mini's. By far I have many more random systems around here than parts of any cohernet collection of anything specific. But I'd trade those random systems away in a heartbeat to get parts for the systems I personally value most. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 5 11:49:56 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Possible to read Amiga disks on a PC? Yes, actually In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Take a look at http://fast.emuunlin.com/disk2fdi/index.html There doesn't seem to be any such domain (fast.emuunlin.com does not exist) (fast.emunlin.com does not exist) (fast.emuonline.com does not exist) (www.emuunlin.com does not exist) (emuunlin.com does not exist) (emuonline.com does exist, but it is a store selling products made from dead emus) Does anybody have a URL that works? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 5 11:55:41 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts References: Message-ID: <003701c11dcf$765c97e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >I am looking for a monitor cable to fit an apple IIgs computer. The cable >that I need is a 15-pin (2 row) double ended cable. The monitor is a 12" RGB The Apple IIc and Mac's also use 15p cables. Any chance all three are compatible? John A. From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 5 12:01:32 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: DSSI Terminator References: Message-ID: <006101c11dd0$473a7120$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > So basically, I was wondering if anyone out there has a spare > DSSI terminator, or as these as I suspect - very similar to gold dust I'll "Ohm out" mine in case you get desperate. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 5 12:09:34 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <200108051637.JAA14235@mail.telisphere.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > Oh this just sucks. Now I have to get a 14.4 _and_ a 28.8 to > complete the set? *bangs head on table* Any more nasty surprises out > there? :) Maybe this harkens back to whether one is truly a "collector" v "accumulator",etc., but... why would you have more than one modem in the "stack"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 5 12:24:18 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <3B6D7966.CF4795DF@tiac.net> References: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> <3B6D7966.CF4795DF@tiac.net> Message-ID: >Its simply a matter of style, and I don't personally advocate one style over >another. >In fact, each style of collecting complements the other, and that >was the point I >was trying to express. There are as many different reasons for collecting stuf as there are collectors, none of them more correct than another. I'd certainly lack a few things if it weren't for the accumalators! I agree that both are important to the hobby. >Well Sir, it was not my intention to put anything or anyone down, >nor to cast a >better light on any specific style of computer collecting. Sorry...the reply wasn't meant to be so harsh. >Myself, I'm an accumulator, bigtime. I do have a small 'serious collection' >within my larger accumulation (of the original 'family of three' early HP >mini's), and a much too large selection of Apollo gear, but then there are >systems I just 'had to have', or that earned a special place in my >heart, like me >ELF-II. Most of these have nothing to do with HP mini's. I also have sub-collections. My main concentration was initially pre-1985 8-bitters and then that expanded to include some of the early machines in the development of the mass-market GUI and finally to include various early game consoles. Nearly everything I own falls into one of these three catagories, though there are a couple of oddballs plus some more modern machines that I use regularly. As you also mentioned, I tend to pick up whatever books and add-ons I come across for my various systems as well. In many ways, I'm glad that I've reached the limits for storage space, as the collection then self-limits. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Aug 5 12:48:58 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225595@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Is the EconoRam a George Morrow design? I have four EconoRams that are Bill > Godbout/CompuPro products. Mine are 16K SRAMs, in this case, loaded with > 2147's. I believe some of Godbout's designs were done my Morrow, but perhaps not all. Godbout used to run an EPROM programming service. After having typed in the SOL's CONSOL source listings (sans comments), assembling it using the Intel MAC80 cross assembler, and testing the code under the Intel INTERP-80 simulator (each running on both the DEC-10 and the CDC-6600), I ran the Intel HEX output through a conversion so that I could punch a papertape on the CDC-6600's high-speed papertape reader/punch (a holdover from the days when IU had a CDC 3400/3600 system) and sent the paper tape to Godbout. Someone names Spencer who worked there burned my 5204 Eproms with the tiny fragile gold legs and got 'em back to me. I had *one* error in my entry of CONSOL that I never caught- Control-Z, which was the cursor down function, would crash the machine. Later, I got some SOLOS roms, and never looked back... > I also have a completely new/unused (not in the box, but never used) WunderBuss > somewhere. I'm not even certain it was ever assembled. Ah, the Wunderbuss... I found one S-100 line that had a copper gap from producton... but it wasn't a normally used line, at least in the Altair/IMSAI usage... maybe IEEE-S696 used it... -dq From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 5 13:21:19 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <002c01c11dc9$e35c6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: I know that and I've had one dumb-butt see a $6.99 starting bid and a $6.99 buy-it-now and STILL put a $6.99 bid on the regular way (duh). The only thing I can think of that they would do this (other than stupidity) is to delay the end of the auction so they have the money when the auction ends later. Of course I closed the auction early as I wanted to move the particular item(s) and wasn't concerned with further bids. I found that this particular bidder was a deadbeat anyway as they had a rather high neg factor (4 negs out of a feedback of 60) and 2 of those were within that same month, so I was able to post non-paying-bidder early, then relist and get a real bidder and the unti was closed, paid for, and shipped before the first posting's regular auction date came up. It has it's advantages, for both the buyer and seller, unless the seller is looking for a nut that wants something so bad that an inflated buy-it-now will get them to bid & close. That's when most buy-it-now auctions usually get deleted from a regular bid being posted. Of course if there is a reserve and it isn't met, there could be 1000 bids and the buy-it-now will still be open. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:16 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> That "buy-it-now" mechanism doesn't really serve as a price cap. -> I wish it -> would, but ... -> -> What happens is the "buy-it-now" option goes away once a bid, no -> matter how low -> or high, has been placed, and I've seen numerous things auction -> off at prices -> well above the "buy-it-now" price. Perhaps that would work -> better if folks had -> the option available until there was a bid above the -> "buy-it-now" level, but -> that's not the way it works. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Russ Blakeman" -> To: -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:51 AM -> Subject: RE: Ebay madness -> -> -> > You pay your final value fee based on the closing auction -> amount, not on -> > what you discount it for. Granted the FVF system has a credit -> system but you -> > have to know it's there and go thru the motions with it. If -> they put a crazy -> > amount up in proxy then they should be prepared to pay -> anything between the -> > bottom and top of that. If you want a cap on price you can -> also post it as a -> > buy-it-now (same as beginning bid) and that way you tell them from the -> > beginning that you just want that amount, not anymore than that. -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> > -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:41 AM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> >I actually posted my first object on ebay (YES ME!) -> recently and I was -> > -> >ashamed a service manual for a Heathkit signal generator -> (1962) sold for -> > -> >$17.50US. -> > -> -> > -> The important point is that you didn't want the manuals, -> and someone who -> > -> did now has them PLUS you get some compesation for the time and -> > -> expense of -> > -> shipping. You don't have to charge the person the full winning -> > -> bid amount, -> > -> several times I have informed winning bidders that the bid was -> > -> too high and -> > -> offered a lower price. -> > -> -> > -> If you want a simpler transaction just box up like items -> and sell them a -> > -> box at a time. -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> > -> -> From liste at artware.qc.ca Sun Aug 5 13:26:01 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: MIPS RISC/os 4.5 docs available Message-ID: I was given a RISComputer M/120 with 2 boxes of documentation and many QIC tapes (RISC/os 3.0, 3.1, 4.0, 4.51, 5.0, Fortran, Pascal and Ingres). Funny thing is that the computer has 3.0 installed on it :) I'm going to keep the most recent versions (RISC/os 5.0) and pull all the data off the tapes and make "available" at some point. So, this means I have a complete set of RISC/os 4.5 docs that are destined for the recycling bin if no one claims them. Still in shrink wrap: User's Guide User's Refernce Manual Volume I (System V) User's Refernce Manual Volume I (BSD) Loose: Sysytem Administrator's Reference Manual Next 4 are in binders: Programmer's Guide Volume I Programmer's Guide Volume II Programmer's Reference Manual Volume I (System V) Programmer's Reference Manual Volume II (BSD) I also have the OS on QIC-120 tapes, release 4.51 which I'll give to whomever wants it. Note that all of this is very heavy, so shipping will be $$$$. I'd much prefer someone came to pick it up. I'm in Waterville, Eastern Townships, Qu?bec. First claim for both tapes and docs wins over someone wanting only the tapes. Speak now or this stuff becomes newsprint :) -Philip From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 5 13:26:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225595@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000e01c11ddc$1ccea580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> comments inline. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Ebay madness > > Is the EconoRam a George Morrow design? I have four EconoRams that are Bill > > Godbout/CompuPro products. Mine are 16K SRAMs, in this case, loaded with > > 2147's. > > I believe some of Godbout's designs were done my Morrow, but perhaps not all. > I didn't favor one over the other. Morrow's did work with third-party hardware, though. > > Godbout used to run an EPROM programming service. After having typed in > Someone names Spencer who worked there burned my 5204 Eproms with the > tiny fragile gold legs and got 'em back to me. > I had a number of 5203's and 5204's that I converted into Hi-Tech Tie Tacks a decade or two ago. They made nice holiday stocking stuffers for office parties, etc. They were certainly pretty enough with the white ceramic and gold cover and pins. The gold made me think of them as jewelry. I made one out of the 8008 CPU from an old NBI word processor as well, since I pitched the rest of the thing, not having the right model of printer. > > > Ah, the Wunderbuss... > Yes, and I still have a couple of unused VECTOR 22-slot mothers as well. I didn't use them because the backplane length wasn't needed once one had memory cards bigger than 8KB. > > > -dq > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 12:53:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:02 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010805023741.00af0810@mail.solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at Aug 5, 1 02:51:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/7b3ae276/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 12:46:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 4, 1 05:21:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 805 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/cf618707/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 13:04:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 mains adapter In-Reply-To: from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pi=EBdro_Vander_Steene?=" at Aug 5, 1 01:57:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 824 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/d191d1ea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 12:58:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Aug 4, 1 10:57:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/dfecda39/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 13:08:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Aug 5, 1 11:07:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/2783cb47/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 13:22:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/5a3be5be/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 5 14:17:17 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Absolutely in agreement there - even though you may not always have the time to fix these machines right away, many of the older ones require component level repair to keep them going. I can easily locate a board for my 9595 server and chuck the bad one but if my Osborne goes belly-up it's time to dig out the scope, soldering iron, etc and replace the affected part(s). Radio, including CB and amateur, also require this knowledge unless you're loaded (either monetarily or mentally) and can dump a fried transciever and buy a new(er) one. I kind of like the challenge in locating and then haggling out a replacement tube for my older linear amp...builds character and I have been able to reciprocate the favor (in computer parts) for the ones I get the tubes from in mant cases. That's why it's a HOBBY - it's what yu want to do and you do it because you want to learn. Anyone know a person that has a model building hobby that doesn't know how to (or want to) use glue? Not likely I'm sure. Even museums that display mechanical or electrical items will try to restore an item to working condition, and fake it if the item isn't worth it. The Museum of Science & Industry in Chicago had a radio/TV exhibit years ago and they had a 75% total of working equipment and 20% others that had been modified to seem that they were working (ie speaker input and lights from a source under the table that held the radio). The others were in prime condition physically and were there for the visual appeal, and were non-working. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:54 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> -> -> > I'm not above a bit of soldering to repair a system either. -> But then I'm -> > not going to make it my lifelong ambition to buy/acquire dead -> machines with -> > a view to repairing them. Life's too short, and besides, I'm a -> klutz with a -> > soldering iron... -> -> This is an atitude that I can't seem to agree with... To me, part of the -> computer collecting hobby is repairs/restorations. It wouldn't -> be so much -> fun if you didn't have to get inside the machines and fix them. -> -> And how can life be too short for a hobby? A hobby, surely, is what you -> do because you enjoy it ;-) -> -> -tony -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 5 14:28:42 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Indeed. Actually, I wish my favourite machines were a lot more common, so >all of you could own one and enjoy it. I have (as I've said many times) >little interest in the financial value of my collection. Agreed, as I buy stuff because it interets me and possibly fits into my collection somehow, or just because it interests me! The only stuff I've sold off has been a bit of excess, usually newer stuff, so the value of the rest isn't of much concern to me at the moment. I generally end up giving away far more than what I've sold. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rdd at smart.net Sun Aug 5 14:57:37 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. Actually, I wish my favourite machines were a lot more common, so > all of you could own one and enjoy it. I have (as I've said many times) > little interest in the financial value of my collection. Same here. If the machines that most of us collect were more common, or were not being snapped up by storage-only collectors, we'd have less trouble finding difficult to find components for our machines, and more people could enjoy interesting computers. I remember going to a hamfest a couple of years ago, and some collector was walking up to table after table, quickly, and offering cash for the entire lot, including things he didn't want. I'm talking about tables with a half dozen of one kind of machine, etc. Another collector at a hamfest was buying everything DEC to stuff into his warehouse; he mentioned having a few thousand computers. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 15:17:48 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 Message-ID: I think I might have the manual for this board, I will check later and say for certain... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jss at subatomix.com Sun Aug 5 15:30:57 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010805151606.M34328-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > > Same here. If the machines that most of us collect were more common, > or were not being snapped up by storage-only collectors, we'd have > less trouble finding difficult to find components for our machines, > and more people could enjoy interesting computers. Just understand one thing... Some (and I'm not saying most, just some) storage-only collectors are just play-with-em collectors in the making. I'm one of them. As you may remember, I just got into this less than a year ago, with little knowledge of my target computers aside from that gained by perusal of the various web sites. So far, my activities within the hobby have been purely acquisitional. My idea was that hardware, software, and docs are easier to acquire today than they will be one or more years from now, and therefore, I should acquire now and play later. Now that I've pretty much exhausted my storage space and cc budget, I'm slowly moving into playing mode. I'm also doing trades with people to exchange my more randomly-acquired items with items more targeted to my specific interests. I've yet to have my first powering-on ceremony, but it *is* coming soon! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 15:25:14 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Datasystems Design Board + RX33 floppies Message-ID: For what it's worth, I have the manual for the DSD880... I can say for a fact that it is like Jerome described, a big honkin' box with an 8 inch floppy and a Shugart 10MB 8" disk drive, as well as custom microcoded logic... The DSD440 is similar, but the one I had contained 2 8" FDD's and a board covered in Intel 3000 series bitslice logic... So I do indeed doubt that it could control anything else.. I do have another board that I want to get rid of, with manual, that I seem to recall will control 5.25" floppies, e-mail me if you might be interested, Sergio. I don't mind shipping it across the water ;p Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 5 10:33:24 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! References: <3B6D743B.2A44@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <079d01c11dc4$08d8b560$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Sorry about that... looks like I caused the confusion since I was also looking at the Geman machine and sent a cut&pasted link to a friend...and put that wrong link into the mailing list message.. If you look at the pictures in the German ad - the machine has been apparently taken apart - down to the screws by a person not having much technical knowledge. The vector CPUs are laying loose on newspapers etc - no antistatic precautions were taken. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole! The Boston machine looks intact except for a couple of dings on front covers. This is the one I would buy... The Boston EL is of course : http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261319145 Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Strange, in the text of the German machine is not claimed that it may > >have come from Apple. Maybe a result of a mixup of the two item numbers? > > I posted the URL for the Boston machine and then the next day > Heinz Wolter posted the URL for the German Cray. In his post, he > stated that the seller was claiming it came from Apple. That is > where I took that information from, as I can't read German. Regards, Heinz From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 5 15:04:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Mountain Hardware Supertalker. Some kind of voice I/O card. There are > 2 3.5mm jhackl sockets (what you'd call mini phone jacks :-)) on it, > one labelled 'microphone input', the other 'speaker output'. It > contains a couple of 324 quad op-amps, an LM380 audio amplifier, a > small-ish PROM (256 bytes, I think), TTL and 4000 series CMOS logic, > and a MC3418 (is that some kind of Codec?) I believe I have this card but never really found out much about it. > Huristics Model 20A-1. Possibly sound/voice input. One 3.5mm jack > socket (microphone?), 2 324 quad op-amps, 2 339 quad comparators, a > 2708 EPROM, and a little TTL logic. Sounds familiar. I know I do have something from Huristics...a speech synthesizer. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 16:28:18 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <200108050509.WAA20791@mail.telisphere.com> Message-ID: <20010805212818.57344.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gene Buckle wrote: > Minus the Hayes 300 that's still in storage, here's a complete Hayes > Stack. > > http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/stack.jpg What are the words/symbols above the seconds places on the Chronograph? They appear to be related to the alarm, but I can't quite read them. I'm designing an emulator for the Chronograph for an LCD/VFD, but I don't know what those are. The first cut I'm planning will be on a modern computer (Linux or similar) with two serial ports - one to talk to the "host", one to talk to a Matrix Orbital VFD I have. Depending on how successful the emulation is, I might or might not try to make a second pass at it with something that fits in a Chronograph-sized box. I was thinking about either a PIC (but need two serial ports), an 8051 or I have a defunct 68008 design from my former employer that was to be an RS-232 protocol converter to compete with the Cleo "Cable" that was semi-popular for EDI transmisson over 3780 before EDI-over-IP took over. So anyhow... I'd love to see a close-up of just the face of the Chronograph. Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 5 16:26:04 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option In-Reply-To: RE: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option (SP) References: <003c01a8eb35$7cfbf800$0301a8c0@marga> Message-ID: <15213.47596.938252.42666@phaduka.neurotica.com> On January 5, SP wrote: > I saw the board was sold :-( Eeek, sorry, that was me... > But, thinking about purchase one if the occassion is present... > How exactly could be done the connection ? We have the M8189 > and the M8188. Where or how is connected one board with the > other ? The FPF11 has jumpers along the bottom which determine which backplane pins it uses for power and ground. These allow it to be plugged into either a Qbus or a Unibus backplane, for use with a pdp11/23 or a pdp11/24. As far as I recall, it uses no signals from the backplane...only power and ground. It connects to the processor via a 40-pin flat ribbon cable which terminates in a 40-pin DIP header. This header plus into one of the MICROM sockets, where one would normally plug in the floating point microcode ROM chip. It should work with any F11-based system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 16:23:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Aug 5, 1 02:17:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/3abfb17b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 16:31:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <20010805151606.M34328-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 5, 1 03:30:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/7fdedb8f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 16:33:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 5, 1 01:04:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/1aeedb14/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 16:36:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option In-Reply-To: <15213.47596.938252.42666@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 5, 1 05:26:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/85d26ecf/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Aug 5 16:05:34 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts In-Reply-To: <003701c11dcf$765c97e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: >>I am looking for a monitor cable to fit an apple IIgs computer. The cable >>that I need is a 15-pin (2 row) double ended cable. The monitor is a 12" >RGB > >The Apple IIc and Mac's also use 15p cables. Any chance all three >are compatible? No. The IIc is totally weird and actually must have an active adapter connected to it, and the Mac and IIgs are different. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 5 17:04:03 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option In-Reply-To: Re: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option (Tony Duell) References: <15213.47596.938252.42666@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15213.49875.400661.316678@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 5, Tony Duell wrote: > > The FPF11 has jumpers along the bottom which determine which backplane > > pins it uses for power and ground. These allow it to be plugged into > > either a Qbus or a Unibus backplane, for use with a pdp11/23 or a > > Actually, +5V and ground are on the same pins on Unibus and Qbus slots. > The jumpers on the FPF11 determine which pins on the bus will be shorted > together, thus giving either a Unibus style grant continuity or a Qbus one. Ahh, I stand corrected. I need ECC in my brain. I thought those were for power. > I'd like to see you fit one in a Pro350, though :-) (you did say any > F11-based system). But actually, if you could power it somehow, I think it > would work with the Pro. I thought of exactly that when I typed it...and I'm considering trying it! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun Aug 5 17:22:45 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D29@BUSH02> and a MC3418 (is that some kind of Codec?) It's an op-amp. Cheers, Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 17:45:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D29@BUSH02> from "Davison, Lee" at Aug 5, 1 11:22:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010805/ed6c65d9/attachment.ksh From sieler at allegro.com Sun Aug 5 18:04:24 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Possible to read Amiga disks on a PC? Yes, actually In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B6D6E88.6026.5F3544C@localhost> Re: > > Take a look at http://fast.emuunlin.com/disk2fdi/index.html > > There doesn't seem to be any such domain Ditto...darn! If anyone finds the info, I'd be interested in the URL! BTW, I'd have thought disk2fdi is documented a floppy disk imaging system, not a program to *usefully* read Amiga floppies! (http://www.oldskool.org/pc/tand-em/tand-em_docs.html) is the only hit I could find for just "disk2fdi", and that's what I picked up from that page) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 5 18:19:03 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108052318.QAA03131@mail.telisphere.com> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:09:34 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Oh this just sucks. Now I have to get a 14.4 _and_ a 28.8 to >> complete the set? *bangs head on table* Any more nasty surprises >>out >> there? :) > >Maybe this harkens back to whether one is truly a "collector" v >"accumulator",etc., but... >why would you have more than one modem in the "stack"? > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com Well for one, they won't actually be used. Truth be told, I only have a power supply for the Chronograph and the 300. I just want the whole set since having them all is rather unique. g. -- http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 5 18:35:44 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... In-Reply-To: <20010805212818.57344.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200108052334.QAA04043@mail.telisphere.com> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), Ethan Dicks wrote: >--- Gene Buckle wrote: >> Minus the Hayes 300 that's still in storage, here's a complete >>Hayes >> Stack. >> >> http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/stack.jpg > >What are the words/symbols above the seconds places on the >Chronograph? >They appear to be related to the alarm, but I can't quite read them. > Above the 10s position is a little circle within a circle and there is a alarm symbol above the 1s position. g. -- http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 5 18:54:23 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: FS: DZV11's (M7957) w/ cab kits Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010805164518.02a6a050@209.185.79.193> Found some more boards that are of no use to me, for the price of dropping them off USPS priority ($7.50) you too can own a DZV11, the original four port serial card for the Q-bus. They come with a 40 pin ribbon cable and the 4 port DB25 bulkhead. (you can also use these bulkheads on the DHV11s and others. Why would you want one? Perhaps to create a period accurate PDP-11/03 or PDP-11/23. Or perhaps to experiment with Qbus serial cards. Why don't I want them? I've got a dozen DHV11's (8 ports) that are just as useful and twice as dense). They are quad width cards. Work well in the BA11 chassis and they are old enough that even Ultrix 1.2 knows how to talk to them. You do _not_ want to put them in a high speed VAX (like anything faster than a MicroVAX 3500). Max serial speed is 9600 baud. So they aren't particularly fast either. --Chuck From aclark at enviroweb.org Sun Aug 5 19:02:36 2001 From: aclark at enviroweb.org (Arthur E. Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts In-Reply-To: References: <003701c11dcf$765c97e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010805195103.02be96b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:05 PM 8/5/2001 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > >>I am looking for a monitor cable to fit an apple IIgs computer. The cable > >>that I need is a 15-pin (2 row) double ended cable. The monitor is a 12" > >RGB > > > >The Apple IIc and Mac's also use 15p cables. Any chance all three > >are compatible? > >No. The IIc is totally weird and actually must have an active adapter >connected to it, and the Mac and IIgs are different. The RGB video specs for the Mac, IIgs, //c, //e and /// series machines are all different. So RGB cables and RGB monitors designed for one series do not work on any of the others. There is an esoteric exception, which is that a RGB IIgs monitor will display RGB output from a ///. However, the colors are reversed. I don't think I've ever seen a //c hooked to a RGB monitor, so I've never learned what's required. IIRC, the RGB specs for the //e, //c, IIgs, and /// series were all variations on an odd analog RGB system designed by Apple. I believe that starting with the color Macs, they embraced a more traditional, but still proprietary, digital TTL spec. I welcome and encourage any corrections. Arthur Clark From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 5 19:28:15 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I recall a voice recognition board from them. But I thought that it was spelled "Heuristics". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 5 19:39:43 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know the type of person you speak of with respect to radio, tv, electronics and even computers - many of them are my paying customers since they want the ora of being a computer enthusiast but can't (or won't)turn a screwdriver. I've done many side jobs too, from replacing tubes/valves in radio rigs to modifications to factory units (CB mostly). It's all fun and all good. Of course the money makes it better too. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell -> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:23 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Ebay madness -> [...] -> -> > Radio, including CB and amateur, also require this knowledge -> unless you're -> > loaded (either monetarily or mentally) and can dump a fried -> transciever and -> -> Alas I think that nowadays the only knowledge required is how to -> send the -> rig back to the service agents :-(. Radio amateurs, for some reason, are -> afraid of working on SMD stuff (for all it's not at all hard). -> Well, most -> radio amateurs, anyway.... -> -> [...] From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 5 20:42:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Memorex Telex Displaystation Message-ID: <244.618T2800T1626905optimus@canit.se> What is this: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261907064 Is each box a computer system, and if so, of what kind? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 5 19:00:38 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I recall a voice recognition board from them. But I thought that it was > spelled "Heuristics". Me too. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From broekh at interchange.ubc.ca Sun Aug 5 20:15:58 2001 From: broekh at interchange.ubc.ca (Henry Broekhuyse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c11e15$59230ba0$6401a8c0@bc.hsia.telus.net> Re: > Mountain Hardware Supertalker. Some kind of voice I/O card. There are 2 > 3.5mm jhackl sockets (what you'd call mini phone jacks :-)) on it, one > labelled 'microphone input', the other 'speaker output'. It contains a > couple of 324 quad op-amps, an LM380 audio amplifier, a small-ish PROM > (256 bytes, I think), TTL and 4000 series CMOS logic, and a MC3418 (is > that some kind of Codec?) Some more information from the "Apple II FAQ": According to the MCI Supertalker manual, the card plugs into a Slot and lets you digitize human speech and store it on diskettes. Supertalker can replay the stored digitized speech via the speaker supplied with the system. Supertalker software includes the Vocal Preparation System (VPS) for developing phrase diskettes. A phrase diskette can have numerous tables containing words, phrases, and complete sentences. Quality of recorded data is dependent on the selected digitizing rate which can range from 512 bytes/sec (lowest) up to 4096 bytes/sec (best). Playback volume has four software selectable levels. Henry Broekhuyse From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Aug 5 21:07:26 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010805190442.02c91190@mail.zipcon.net> At 07:22 PM 8/5/01 +0100, you wrote: >Mountain Hardware Supertalker. Some kind of voice I/O card. There are 2 >3.5mm jhackl sockets (what you'd call mini phone jacks :-)) on it, one >labelled 'microphone input', the other 'speaker output'. It contains a >couple of 324 quad op-amps, an LM380 audio amplifier, a small-ish PROM >(256 bytes, I think), TTL and 4000 series CMOS logic, and a MC3418 (is >that some kind of Codec?) MC3418 is a "Continuously variable slope Delta Modulator / demodulator" "Providing a simplified approach to digital speech encoding / decoding ..." http://www.spies.com/arcade/schematics/DataSheets/MC3418.pdf there's the PDF of the datasheet for it. and here's a URL for a bunch of datasheets on common IC's used in arcade machines... http://www.spies.com/arcade/schematics/ From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun Aug 5 21:08:19 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: Memorex Telex Displaystation Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D30@BUSH02> Have a look here... http://www.michaelsystems.com/periph/1472v.html > What is this: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1261907064 > > Is each box a computer system, and if so, of what kind? > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun Aug 5 21:28:28 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D31@BUSH02> MC3418 is a "Continuously variable slope Delta Modulator / demodulator" "Providing a simplified approach to digital speech encoding / decoding ..." It is, I must have entered an extra digit in the search. Well it is late 8^)= Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. 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From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 5 21:55:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:03 2005 Subject: WTB: DEC BA11-MA Message-ID: <15214.1848.274674.443070@phaduka.neurotica.com> Anybody have a spare DEC BA11-MA chassis in good shape with the red pdp11/03 label on the front? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From model6226 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 22:01:43 2001 From: model6226 at hotmail.com (ron ron) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC Message-ID: HI , Do anyone know where I can find an IBM 5150 pc for sale. thanks rami. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 5 22:45:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <004001c11e2a$4e83ba40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I believe I see where you're coming from, Tony, but I don't see things that way myself. I like to drive a nicely functional, well appointed and comfortable car. I HATE working on the things, though I hate even more trusting the meathead at the service station/garage to do it. As for me, I actually dislike repairing other people's designs, and, in fact, my own as well, but I put up with that. I've had very little of my own hardware break down, yet, whenever I get into someone else's it amazes me that it worked at all. Moreover, I seldom fail to find things that should have been omitted, often among the stuff that's not working right. I don't collect computers, I don't seek out "old" hardware, in general, except perhaps to prove a point, though I've got a lot of it, but only because I got it when it was new. When I appear to be seeking out "old" hardware, I'm looking for parts. To me, a computer that's not computing, even if only for a moment, is rubbish, or maybe a spare parts supply, and little else. If it can't easily be made to compute, and can't be used to make something else compute, then I don't want it. Now, I know that's not your viewpoint, but I'll bet I'm not the only one around who doesn't see repairing badly-designed, or even well-designed but broken hardware as "fun," though I do enjoy getting something that I'd otherwise have to scrap or cannibalize to work. If it doesn't do something I want done, however, out it goes, albeit not always quickly. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Ebay madness > > I'm not above a bit of soldering to repair a system either. But then I'm > > not going to make it my lifelong ambition to buy/acquire dead machines with > > a view to repairing them. Life's too short, and besides, I'm a klutz with a > > soldering iron... > > This is an atitude that I can't seem to agree with... To me, part of the > computer collecting hobby is repairs/restorations. It wouldn't be so much > fun if you didn't have to get inside the machines and fix them. > > And how can life be too short for a hobby? A hobby, surely, is what you > do because you enjoy it ;-) > > -tony > > From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Aug 5 22:34:43 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Possible to read Amiga disks on a PC? Yes, actually In-Reply-To: Mark's message of "Sun, 05 Aug 2001 09:54:52 +0000" References: Message-ID: <200108060334.f763YiL75639@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Mark wrote: > Take a look at http://fast.emuunlin.com/disk2fdi/index.html Try . ^ note spelling correction -Frank McConnell From technos at nerdland.org Sun Aug 5 22:59:25 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: MCA systems Message-ID: <01C11E0A.A8433E90.technos@nerdland.org> A couple days back, there was talk of using PC systems with MCA busses to identify and test commercial cards (AS/400, etc). I've got a few, IBM PS/2 model 76S. They're cheesy DX2-66, but they're tested and running well under OS/2. Was going to use them as a test cluster, but my source of cheap MCA periph dried up. They come with 500M SCSI drives and either 4x slot load CDROMs or 16x drives I have left over from some AS/400 I scrapped. If you'd like one for testing, free to good home for those that live in MI and cost of shipping to those that ain't. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 5 23:08:15 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? References: Message-ID: <3B6E182F.C1E5C2EF@tiac.net> Does anyone specifically collect examples of really bad designs? (no, really...) Tony Duell wrote: > > Two basic types of collector, those who assemble sets of items of value, > > whose value is enhanced by completeness of the set, and those who collect > > examples of fine craftsmanship and items of special merit compared to there > > I am most certainly of the second type (although it's not just 'fine > craftsmanship' -- I colllect some things because they're just _odd_). > > > contemporaries. Most of my favorite systems I would be collecting > > regardless if they are rare or common. Things I hunt down mostly because > > Indeed. Actually, I wish my favourite machines were a lot more common, so > all of you could own one and enjoy it. I have (as I've said many times) > little interest in the financial value of my collection. > > > they are rare, often prove much less satisfying to own than to look for. > > -tony From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Aug 5 23:55:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Do anyone know where I can find an IBM 5150 pc for sale. >thanks rami. Where are you, how many do you want, and what condition and configuration? From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Aug 5 23:56:21 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <3B6E182F.C1E5C2EF@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > Does anyone specifically collect examples of really bad designs? > > (no, really...) > Other than Altairs, you mean....? Cheerz John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 00:33:16 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Possible to read Amiga disks on a PC? Yes, actually In-Reply-To: <200108060334.f763YiL75639@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 5 Aug 2001, Frank McConnell wrote: > Mark wrote: > Try . > ^ note spelling correction Thank you. I went there. There was ABSOLUTELY NO information on the website other than the claim that it could do Amiga. In order to get ANY idea of what it is, you need to download it, UNZIP it, and look at the files. It's a clever idea: The Amiga is MFM, but without a compatible sector header. Read a valid "Western Digital" style sector header from a valid PC diskette in one drive, and then suddenly, without telling the 765, switch drives, where it will continue to read. Thus, it gets a srctor geader from one drive and then reads the Amiga track from the other drive as it if were the sector that had been started. The CRC will, of course, be wrong, so error detection will need to be done in software. Reading reliability has some issues, and it may be necessary to do repeated tries. The beginning of the Amiga track might not succeed, and it is as likely to line up with the clock pulses (what these guys call "synchronization bits") instead of the data pulses. Breaking out the Amiga sectors from the Amiga raw track is left as a problem for the user. Deciphering the Amiga file and directory system to get files rather than raw tracks/sectors is left as a problem for the user. So, ... It is NOT a file transfer disk format conversion. There are MAJOR complications with any attempt to make a consumer level file transfer program out of it, But it does have potential as a clever hack to get raw reads! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 00:00:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, ron ron wrote: > Do anyone know where I can find an IBM 5150 pc for sale. thanks rami. Looks like the 20th anniversary of the PC that all the major media outlets seem to be covering is starting to have a speculation effect. Time to dust off that pile of 5150's and get them onto eBay :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mranalog at home.com Mon Aug 6 01:32:11 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: nearly complete Stack... Message-ID: <3B6E39EB.433415AF@home.com> Gene said: > Now all I need is a DC Hayes 300 S100 modem. :) I'm sitting here looking at a 80-103A "copyright DCHayes 1977-1978" S/N 00579 You should invite me over to see your simulator, I can bring the board with me. :) --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From terryc at woa.com.au Mon Aug 6 01:37:18 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Fibre Optic Cable 1005-0078 Message-ID: <3B6E3B1E.EF1AC8E5@woa.com.au> I've not had much luck with this on search engines. so I am trying it here as it must be close to being classic if not already. I am trying to identify a HP fibre optic cable assembly; P/N(?) 1005-0078. It is described as a 30 metre fibre optic cable assembly. If was dumpster recovered 5 years ago and comes on a plastic drum about 13" across, which is labelled with the above desctiption. It was fitted with two dissimilar cable anchorage. Does anyone have any ideas what it was/is? The cable actually looks like black figure 8 electrical wire (standard lamp stuff), but thinner. More to the point, the fibres are terminated with a screw on fitting, which I have never seen listed in any catalogue. My thoughts were to try and find a couple of AUI to FO converters and use it as part of my SOHO network between the garage(lab/workshop) and office. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Mon Aug 6 01:48:47 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: RDD40 External CDROM Caddy Message-ID: <588ca4586338.586338588ca4@ono.com> Hello. I was yesterday reviewing some stuff I received recently from USA and I've checked that one DEC RDD40 that I received don't has a caddy to insert the cd-rom. Obvious question: Where could be obtained one ? Thanks in advance. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain. Sergio From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 02:04:05 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. See item 1262107020 at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1262107020 -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:00 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM 5150 PC -> -> -> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, ron ron wrote: -> -> > Do anyone know where I can find an IBM 5150 pc for sale. thanks rami. -> -> Looks like the 20th anniversary of the PC that all the major -> media outlets -> seem to be covering is starting to have a speculation effect. Time to -> dust off that pile of 5150's and get them onto eBay :) -> -> Sellam Ismail Vintage -> Computer Festival -> ----------------------------------------------------------------- -> ------------- -> International Man of Intrigue and Danger -> http://www.vintage.org -> -> From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 08:22:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <01C11E0A.A8433E90.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: I wouldn't call a 9576 "Cheesy". They're really nice machines. PS/2s are some of the best-built (and heaviest) PCs ever built. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Jim Tuck wrote: > A couple days back, there was talk of using PC systems with MCA busses > to > identify and test commercial cards (AS/400, etc). I've got a few, IBM > PS/2 > model 76S. They're cheesy DX2-66, but they're tested and running well > under OS/2. Was going to use them as a test cluster, but my source of > cheap > MCA periph dried up. They come with 500M SCSI drives and either 4x slot > load CDROMs or 16x drives I have left over from some AS/400 I scrapped. > > If you'd like one for testing, free to good home for those that live in > MI and > cost of shipping to those that ain't. > > From TRoach at nationalsteel.com Mon Aug 6 08:32:47 2001 From: TRoach at nationalsteel.com (Roach, Tom) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: SLU pinout for DEC 11/53 KDJ11-D/S processor Message-ID: <87774F40F967D311A1DD00508B318A960147E66C@NSCMWDNT50> Dear cognoscenti, I am putting together an old DEC 11/53 system, and so far am missing the SLU for connecting a console terminal to the processor card. The card has a 34-pin flat cable connector, but my (MicroVAX vintage) SLU has two cables (10-pin and 20-pin). The SLU sets baud rate and makes up the serial connections, that's about all, so with sufficient information I may be able to just cable up directly without an SLU. Can you suggest a source for pinout information for the subject processor/SLU interconnection? Thanks for your help. Tom Roach From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Aug 6 08:39:19 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: what the hell. In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010803222018.00bd5660@206.231.8.2>; from cfandt@netsync.net on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 10:27:38PM -0400 References: <20010725133340.A2228893@uiuc.edu> <4.1.20010803222018.00bd5660@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <20010806083919.E4169972@uiuc.edu> Christian Fandt said: > > "Oooo yeah" is right! Nice rather rare catch Dan! I have one and I believe > a British list member has one too, IIRC. I have a manual in French (French > Canada) ;-\ Have only one tape. Can't imagine where to find any other > tapes commercially as it's decidedly proprietary. Came out of one of the > IBM-Endicott facilities back in the mid-80's when they did a bunch of > "downsizing". Still had some sort of test program on the tape which helped > me work out much of the programming syntax, etc. heh, I got mine out of the basement of one of the chemistry labs at U of I...it was destined for the scrap pile and I thought "hey, that looks too interesting to just throw out" and then later went and found out what it actually was :) now I just hope someone decides to throw out whatever experimental equipment they were controlling with the calculator...an old spectrometer or something would be pretty cool :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 08:41:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <15211.8279.344737.705336@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: There were Apple PowerPC-based servers that ran AIX. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 3, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > And Apple offered software to allow a Mac to remotely administer Apple > > Network Servers, which run AIX, through a Control Panel-like interface. > > You mean A/UX? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Aug 6 08:58:48 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <200108040158.f741wok31195@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 06:58:50PM -0700 References: <200108040158.f741wok31195@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20010806085848.F4169972@uiuc.edu> Zane H. Healy said: > > > Meanwhile I just picked up a 21 inch Trinitron refurb monitor which > > will handle BNC inputs so I can switch it between Vax and Sparc and PC. > > Nice! While a Sparc is almost usable on a 17", you really need a 19-21" :^) for it to look really nice :) in my SS20, I've managed to get a 4MB VSIMM so I can use the onboard 24bpp SX graphics...now I just need more system RAM, it's only got 32MB at the moment, which is fine so long as you don't mind your X server constantly swapping...ick. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From Mzthompson at aol.com Mon Aug 6 09:31:24 2001 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: DEC manuals available Message-ID: <46.18adbb83.28a0043c@aol.com> The DEC haul from last month included some manuals that I already have so I will make them available to the list. The manuals and the quantities: TK50 Tape Drive Subsystem; User's Guide - 2 copies TK70 Streaming Tape Drive; Owner's Manual - 1 copy TZK10 Cartridge Tape Drive; User Guide - 1 copy TZK12 525mb SCSI Tape Drive; Installation Guide - 2 copies VT320; Installing and Using the VT320 Video Terminal - 2 copies The plan: 1) Send an email reserving your manual(s) 2) I will email you to confirm your reservation 3) After confirmation of your reservation, shoot me $2 per manual via Paypal (mzthompson@aol.com) to cover the cost of mailing. Mike From fernande at internet1.net Mon Aug 6 09:43:03 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC References: Message-ID: <3B6EACF7.890E9DCE@internet1.net> Russ, I don't hink he meant that dual floppies were rare. I think his mention of, "Rare", in the title is simply the oligatory, "Rare", that Ebay requires every seller to use when selling somthing for profit, that isn't really worth all that much :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many buyers > you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where they get the > idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I have (except 2) > have dual floppies, the other two I would consider more rare as they have FH > 5mb hard drives and a controller. > > See item 1262107020 at > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1262107020 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 6 09:44:36 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: References: <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> At 10:49 PM 8/4/01 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >...and it also shows what incompetent loonies the publishers of biz >rags like the Economist apparently are, to actually believe that all >computers crash frequently and are unreliable like Windoze PeeCees. >Talk about incompetent journalism! The Economist stands head and shoulders above most US media in terms of the depth of thinking in most of its articles. Perhaps you could browse their web site to see what I'm talking about. Obviously the author was referring to the Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer on the planet, at least among those of us who don't live in their parent's basement. I know this isn't going to help my debate with you, but it's one of the few magazines that Bill Gates takes the time to read. :-) - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 10:24:54 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Re: VCF East makes The Economist (John Foust) References: <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> Message-ID: <15214.46791.16312.650386@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 6, John Foust wrote: > >...and it also shows what incompetent loonies the publishers of biz > >rags like the Economist apparently are, to actually believe that all > >computers crash frequently and are unreliable like Windoze PeeCees. > >Talk about incompetent journalism! > > The Economist stands head and shoulders above most US media > in terms of the depth of thinking in most of its articles. > Perhaps you could browse their web site to see what I'm > talking about. Obviously the author was referring to the > Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer > on the planet, at least among those of us who don't live > in their parent's basement. Now THAT's a pretty shitty thing to say. Personally, I moved into my own place when I was 19, thank you very much, and have been supporting a good portion of my family for several years. I prefer to associate the use of real computers with KNOWLEDGE, rather than financial failure. I don't think I've ever read anything quite so infuriating on this mailing list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Aug 6 10:27:20 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Free: DEC/VMS "Orange Wall" Message-ID: <20010806102720.P29902@mrbill.net> I've got an "Orange Wall" of VMS 4.x-era documentation free for pickup in Austin, Texas. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 10:35:27 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: <3B6B1AB7.B8E@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: NetBSD/sparc and NetBSD/sparc64 are even better. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, wanderer wrote: > Dan Wright wrote: > > snip > > As far as I know, Solaris 7 was the last OS to support the sun4c architecture > > (ss2, IPX, IPC, ELC, etc). Solaris 8 will run on sun4m machines (5, 10, > > 20...most (all?) machines with mbus processors + the sparc5 and a > snip > > S8 will run on sun4m (LX, ZX, SS5, SS10, SS20 ) & sun4u (Ultra's, > blade's, Ex500 & Ex800 ) architectures. > > BTW, Redhad does (did?) have Linux for Sparc, performance is not bad > at all. > > Ed > > -- > The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. > quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers > http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. > Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid > '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! > From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 09:40:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many > buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where > they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I > have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider > more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. No pictures, and it's not being marketed as a "collector's item". I'm willing to be an IBM 5150 that a properly worded auction right now will fetch a decent amount. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 6 10:49:56 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist References: <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com><4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> <15214.46791.16312.650386@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <003901c11e8f$7152e860$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Peace please. The world of the Economist and the world of Classiccmp are by nature best kept seperate. We should pick our battles else all become Masters of the things that Suck. John A. (and Only things that Suck) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 6 10:46:03 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <913.617T1350T1305059optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010806102415.00aa4b90@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:10 AM 8/5/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >Went to the junkyard with a mate today and found (well, stepped on) an ugly HP >something. It's a HP 9000 (Yay!) 226 (?h?), aka 9826. It's a 8 MHz 68000 CPU baed system that runs HPL (HP's version of APL), BASIC or Pascal. Most of the OS were disk based but you could get them on plug in ROM cards. The really interesting thing about the OS is that you canhave multiple OSs (and muiltiple versions of the same one) on the same drive or even multiple drives and you can select the one that you want it to boot. Very nice for tinkering. All in all, it's not a bad machine. They're wided used as HP-IB instrument controllers. >which is a clumsy box with a small >CRT and a 5?" floppy as well as an integrated keyboard. This unit had been >retired from the telemonopoly (well, all the stickers date back to that time), >which ad apparently modified it into some kind of luggable workstation by >putting a biug brass handle which seems to have come off a door on one side of >the unit. I wonder if the handle is original? There was an option for some kind of handle from HP but I've never seen one. >Apart from the handle, it has been equipped with an RS-232 interface >and additional memory cards, adding up to roughly 1,7 MB. >The unit powers up fine, the screen looks nice, but the keyboard has been >massacred, with five or six keys missing. That's not a problem, the keys from most of 9000 200 series machi8nes will fit it. >But now what? The system is looking >for a system. What system does it run, and is software obtainable anywhere? Yes, software is available. I have it but it's almost impossible to duplicate. You have to "build" the system from files on the distribution disks, then you save it as a new system file. The problem is that the system file is too large to fit on a floppy disk so there's no way to distribute it except by shipping a complete hard drive with the system installed on it or by making copies of the original distribution disks. I have copies of a number of different versions of all three OSs that I've picked up on hard drives but I've never been able to find ANY original distribution disks. That leaves shipping complete hard drives as the only way to distribute OSs for the moment. And we're not taling about just shipping a bare hard drive. The drives use the HP-IB interface so you need the entire unit which is about 13 inches square and 5 inches tall and they weigh about 15 pounds. Your best bet would be to check the surplus sources in your area and see if you can find any HP hard drives (7957, 7958, 9133, 9134, 9153 etc etc). I've found that frequently they still the OS on them. I used to have a long detailed article about the HP 9000 at my website but my ISP deleted them. You may be able to find them in the cache at google or one of the other search engines. Search for "HP 9000 200 series computers". Joe >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Computer programmers know how to use their hardware. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 11:07:36 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <200108032123.f73LNAV19426@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: It's not so strange. I have a diskless PS/2 Model 55SX with a 3270 Connect Adapter/A w/ROM onboard which makes this box a pretty nice 3278. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Why is this so strange? I've seen Mac's used as intelligent terminals on a > Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe, and I use one as the front-end to my OpenVMS > cluster. > > Zane From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 6 11:09:02 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? References: <3B6E182F.C1E5C2EF@tiac.net> Message-ID: <00dd01c11e92$1f903ed0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:08 AM Subject: Re: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? > Does anyone specifically collect examples of really bad designs? > > (no, really...) As a biologist the aim of my collection is the show the evolution of the computer, space limits are keeping me focused on desktop/home systems but I have a few minis pointing back to the dinosaurs. I have recently come across a box of old magazines containing ads for the PC jr and Epson QX-10, and luckily enough the QX-10 was an uncles favourite machine and will soon be joining my collection. I look for unique features when considering a new addition, having more RAM, a bigger hard drive or faster CPU doesn't cut it but a new CPU, or storage device. Of course I also adopt any free machines that come my way to save them from becoming scrap. This was my original focus when I first started gathering old machines to revive them as linux terminals. I am now looking into some of the offspring of convergence and hunting down the embedded machines. Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 11:09:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <200108040026.f740Qqd01663@bg-tc-ppp698.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > You mean A/UX? > Nah. The Apple Network Server Power PC boxes run an Apple version of > IBM's AIX. It wasn't really even customized. If memory serves, these machines can run AIX5L as it ships. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 11:09:10 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: SunOS (er... Solaris) In-Reply-To: Re: SunOS (er... Solaris) (Master of all that Sucks) References: <3B6B1AB7.B8E@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <15214.49446.404339.497516@phaduka.neurotica.com> Yes. By leaps and bounds. -Dave McGuire On August 6, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > NetBSD/sparc and NetBSD/sparc64 are even better. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, wanderer wrote: > > > Dan Wright wrote: > > > > snip > > > As far as I know, Solaris 7 was the last OS to support the sun4c architecture > > > (ss2, IPX, IPC, ELC, etc). Solaris 8 will run on sun4m machines (5, 10, > > > 20...most (all?) machines with mbus processors + the sparc5 and a > > snip > > > > S8 will run on sun4m (LX, ZX, SS5, SS10, SS20 ) & sun4u (Ultra's, > > blade's, Ex500 & Ex800 ) architectures. > > > > BTW, Redhad does (did?) have Linux for Sparc, performance is not bad > > at all. > > > > Ed > > > > -- > > The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. > > quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. > > Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid > > '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! > > -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 11:13:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I want to get my hands on a 5155. That would rule. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, ron ron wrote: > > > Do anyone know where I can find an IBM 5150 pc for sale. thanks rami. > > Looks like the 20th anniversary of the PC that all the major media outlets > seem to be covering is starting to have a speculation effect. Time to > dust off that pile of 5150's and get them onto eBay :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 11:18:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's keep in mind also, that the 16-64K motherboard is far more valuable/rare/suckerbait than the 64-256K board. > > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many > > buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where > > they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I > > have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider > > more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. The 5MB hard drive is third party after-market. The first hard drive that IBM marketed for it was 10M. Are third party after-market accessories more or less valuable than OEM? The two floppy drive is certainly the most common. One drive is less common, and no drives is the least common, although no such configuration is truly RARE. Strange, considering that IBM was charging $500 per drive, and using the same drives as the TRS-80 (~$200 after market for the same brand/model (Tandon TM100-1)) But, ... it makes the block-off plates that IBM used whenever there wasn't a drive R@RE & VALUABLE! (they're much nicer than the aftermarket block-offs, and have a metal backing/bracket. > No pictures, and it's not being marketed as a "collector's item". I'm > willing to be an IBM 5150 that a properly worded auction right now will > fetch a decent amount. "willing to BE an IBM 5150"????? Confusing. Well, ... one of my students who watches too many cop shows on TV told me that, at least in California, "5150" is cop radio slang for a person with "mental problems making them a threat to themselves or others". Eventually I realized that it was a typo, and he meant to say that he was willing to "BET". I'd better be careful. Noticing other people's typos could eventually lead to my being held accountable for my own spellling misteaks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 11:20:55 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: what the hell. In-Reply-To: <20010806083919.E4169972@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I have a Gas Chromatograph designed for this thing that I might be persuaded to let go. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > heh, I got mine out of the basement of one of the chemistry labs at U of > I...it was destined for the scrap pile and I thought "hey, that looks too > interesting to just throw out" and then later went and found out what it > actually was :) now I just hope someone decides to throw out whatever > experimental equipment they were controlling with the calculator...an old > spectrometer or something would be pretty cool :) > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Aug 5 15:00:54 2001 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (jos.mar) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Tektronix 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01080522033600.00706@jos> On Sun, 05 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > This one on ebay went for $178.51 and it wont even power up. > > Go figure. I guess that why they call it e-PAY. > I've sold a working one ( with one identified fault ) with tapes and documenatation to a listmember for 250 USD. They are probably worth somewhat more. I have a feeling they are not as rare as they seem..... Jos Dreesen From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 11:27:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <15214.46791.16312.650386@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Now THAT's a pretty shitty thing to say. Personally, I moved into my > own place when I was 19, thank you very much, and have been > supporting a good portion of my family for several years. > > I prefer to associate the use of real computers with KNOWLEDGE, > rather than financial failure. > > I don't think I've ever read anything quite so infuriating on this > mailing list. > > -Dave I agree. I stay with my parents much of the time, but by choice. I have an apartment on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and I am about to close on a house in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 11:25:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> Message-ID: It's also popular among sitting US presidents. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > At 10:49 PM 8/4/01 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > >...and it also shows what incompetent loonies the publishers of biz > >rags like the Economist apparently are, to actually believe that all > >computers crash frequently and are unreliable like Windoze PeeCees. > >Talk about incompetent journalism! > > The Economist stands head and shoulders above most US media > in terms of the depth of thinking in most of its articles. > Perhaps you could browse their web site to see what I'm > talking about. Obviously the author was referring to the > Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer > on the planet, at least among those of us who don't live > in their parent's basement. > > I know this isn't going to help my debate with you, but > it's one of the few magazines that Bill Gates takes the > time to read. :-) > > - John > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 6 11:48:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255A6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I am now looking into some of the offspring of convergence > and hunting down the embedded machines. > Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's > onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them > look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value > quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now. What car? They don't all use the same controllers, you know... -dq From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Aug 6 11:55:34 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > You mean A/UX? > > Nah. The Apple Network Server Power PC boxes run an Apple version of > > IBM's AIX. > > It wasn't really even customized. If memory serves, these machines can > run AIX5L as it ships. Actually I think they had a few oddities that did not make them 100% RS6000 compatible, I seem to remember that some models (if not all of the Apple AIX servers) used ADB keyboards, and had apple talk ports (do not quote me on this). I think that they are only supported from AIX 4.1.x to 4.2.x. I might be wrong..... Cheers! _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 12:03:05 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255A6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's > > onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them > > look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value > > quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now. > > What car? They don't all use the same controllers, you know... Want a fuel injection "brain" from a 1968 VW Squareback? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 6 12:07:02 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Fibre Optic Cable 1005-0078 In-Reply-To: <3B6E3B1E.EF1AC8E5@woa.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010806130553.00a959d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Just as a guess I'd say that it might be a cable for some the disk drives that HP made that used a fiber optic link. I've seen some of the drives but I've never seen the cable that goes with them. Joe At 04:37 PM 8/6/01 +1000, you wrote: >I've not had much luck with this on search engines. so I am trying it >here as it must be close to being classic if not already. > >I am trying to identify a HP fibre optic cable assembly; P/N(?) >1005-0078. > >It is described as a 30 metre fibre optic cable assembly. If was >dumpster recovered 5 years ago and comes on a plastic drum about 13" >across, which is labelled with the above desctiption. It was fitted with >two dissimilar cable anchorage. Does anyone have any ideas what it >was/is? > > > >The cable actually looks like black figure 8 electrical wire (standard >lamp stuff), but thinner. > >More to the point, the fibres are terminated with a screw on fitting, >which I have never seen listed in any catalogue. My thoughts were to try >and find a couple of AUI to FO converters and use it as part of my SOHO >network between the garage(lab/workshop) and office. >-- > Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 > email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au > WOA Computer Services > > "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 12:34:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Francis. Javier Mesa wrote: > > It wasn't really even customized. If memory serves, these machines can > > run AIX5L as it ships. > > Actually I think they had a few oddities that did not make them 100% > RS6000 compatible, I seem to remember that some models (if not all of the > Apple AIX servers) used ADB keyboards, and had apple talk ports (do not > quote me on this). I think that they are only supported from AIX 4.1.x to > 4.2.x. I might be wrong..... But AIX5L (and probably 4.1.1+) ships with ADB and AppleTalk drivers (adapted from MkLinux, I believe). Also, AIX5L has a two-stage bootloader capable of bootstrapping from Mac ROMs. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:21:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 5, 1 05:00:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/46b20df7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:24:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: <000501c11e15$59230ba0$6401a8c0@bc.hsia.telus.net> from "Henry Broekhuyse" at Aug 5, 1 06:15:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1100 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/491985d3/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 6 12:40:53 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group In-Reply-To: <15214.46791.16312.650386@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806122221.00bf0da0@pc> At 11:24 AM 8/6/01 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Obviously the author was referring to the >> Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer >> on the planet, at least among those of us who don't live >> in their parent's basement. > > Now THAT's a pretty shitty thing to say. Personally, I moved into my >own place when I was 19, thank you very much, and have been >supporting a good portion of my family for several years. What's next, you'll take offense if someone mentions generalizations like pocket protectors or lack of social skills? "Check the source, Luke." The Economist dared to speak these awful words: "IT IS hard to love something made of grey plastic. Especially hard when it has a habit of crashing, deleting your work and spreading viruses. But, to some, computers are worthy of reverence, and the older the computer, the more valuable it is." Because of this heresy, R.D. Davis said "...and it also shows what incompetent loonies the publishers of biz rags like the Economist apparently are, to actually believe that all computers crash frequently and are unreliable like Windoze PeeCees." I forgot. The computer industry didn't have crashes, lost documents or viruses until Windows arrived. They also didn't have Word, 60 gigs for $150, or 64 megs of RAM full of 18 apps and a screensaver that shows hamsters dancing to funky music. All people who don't love their computers must be dunked in molten iron. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:27:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010805190442.02c91190@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Aug 5, 1 07:07:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/37eaf8be/attachment.ksh From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon Aug 6 12:47:23 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC References: Message-ID: <3B6ED82B.5688C9C8@greenbelt.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many > > buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where > > they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I > > have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider > > more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. > > No pictures, and it's not being marketed as a "collector's item". I'm > willing to be an IBM 5150 that a properly worded auction right now will > fetch a decent amount. > How does this sound? IBM 5150 PC from NASA auction, with NASA stickers, custon NASA modificiations for enhanced coomunications. Complete with 20 MB hard drive loaded with original NASA files, and works! Sorry, you can't have it. :) Eric P.S. This remninds me to check that serial number... > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Gary.Messick at itt.com Mon Aug 6 13:11:08 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:04 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2F@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> > I am now looking into some of the offspring of convergence > and hunting down the embedded machines. > Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's > onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them > look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value > quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now. > > Depends, Ford used to use Intel derived parts (Actually Intel derived the 8096 family from the custom designed chips Ford paid for [8061 and 8065 if I remember correctly.] They later had prototypes using the 88K, but then MOT pulled the plug on that one, so I think they're using a PPC derivative now. Some of the interesting features of the 8061/8065 were serial address/data bus. They wanted all the pins they could have for external I/O (temp. sensors, injector drivers, etc.) The 8061 used the 8096 instruction set, and the 8065 used the 80196 set. All the chips were proprietary, because of the stupid serial bus. They did however have a chip that would convert the serial bus to a standard Intel address/data bus. But I have never seen one of these outside of Ford. I saw some of the production code that went into these modules: It's a miracle your car starts at all. The hardware/software was "cookie cuttered" into the modules. I.e. this powertrain uses these injectors (hardware/software cut and paste), this crank position sensor (hardware/software cut and paste) this valve timing (software cut and paste). Hey how come this module doesn't work? (As you can probably tell, I worked in module testing!) I believe GM used mostly 68K derived stuff, have no idea about Chrysler. I have a friend that OEMs an after market engine controller to a major aftermarket company. It turns out at least for him, in the beginning, it was easier to figure out the inputs/output to the module, and tweak those values, rather than replicating the functions of the entire controller. He simply placed his module "in-between" the module and the engine, and he could pretty much play at will with certain functions while letting the OEM module handle things he didn't care about. From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Aug 6 13:21:53 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806122221.00bf0da0@pc> References: <15214.46791.16312.650386@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15212.27240.435055.28937@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010806132054.026f2080@127.0.0.1> Nor did the average computer user REQUIRE 64 Megs of RAM and 60 GB drive space to run that word processor, either.... : ) - Matt >I forgot. The computer industry didn't have crashes, lost documents >or viruses until Windows arrived. They also didn't have Word, 60 gigs >for $150, or 64 megs of RAM full of 18 apps and a screensaver that >shows hamsters dancing to funky music. All people who don't love their >computers must be dunked in molten iron. > >- John "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 13:10:15 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <3B6ED82B.5688C9C8@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <01Aug6.143044edt.119064@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/6/01 1:47 PM, Eric Chomko at chomko@greenbelt.com wrote: > How does this sound? > IBM 5150 PC from NASA auction, with NASA stickers, custon NASA > modificiations for enhanced coomunications. Complete with 20 MB hard drive > loaded with original NASA files, and works! > Sorry, you can't have it. :) Now that's cool....at the very least unusual Jeff From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Aug 6 13:51:06 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option References: Message-ID: <3B6EE71A.E43E3AAA@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > The FPF11 has jumpers along the bottom which determine which backplane > > pins it uses for power and ground. These allow it to be plugged into > > either a Qbus or a Unibus backplane, for use with a pdp11/23 or a > Actually, +5V and ground are on the same pins on Unibus and Qbus slots. > The jumpers on the FPF11 determine which pins on the bus will be shorted > together, thus giving either a Unibus style grant continuity or a Qbus one. Jerome Fine replies: While I have not used a Unibus system for a long time (and even less did I pull boards in and out), your explanation does provide the logical answer. Thank you. > I'd like to see you fit one in a Pro350, though :-) (you did say any > F11-based system). But actually, if you could power it somehow, I think it > would work with the Pro. If I used a PRO350 on a regular basis, it certainly would be interesting to try. Aside from the fact that you might need a longer cable to the socket that the FP chip normally uses, if you need only power and ground for the board, that does not seem very difficult. Of course, the overall benefit might not be worth the trouble since how many of the total instructions would be faster. So maybe this could be one of your long term projects. But let us know if you ever try it what happens!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Aug 6 13:50:23 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Ebay madness References: Message-ID: <3B6EE6EF.FB5AF927@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm not above a bit of soldering to repair a system either. But then I'm > > not going to make it my lifelong ambition to buy/acquire dead machines with > > a view to repairing them. Life's too short, and besides, I'm a klutz with a > > soldering iron... > This is an atitude that I can't seem to agree with... To me, part of the > computer collecting hobby is repairs/restorations. It wouldn't be so much > fun if you didn't have to get inside the machines and fix them. Jerome Fine replies: Just though I might jump into this discussion. Tony, I suspect that you find that you find that fixing hardware is so enjoyable that you may not understand that other people have a similar OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) but it is just focused in another direction. For example, I understand that Dick (Richard Erlacher) enjoys being lowered into molten iron (feet first one inch an hour). Sellam Ismail enjoys egging Dick on. I enjoy finding bugs and making enhancements to the RT-11 operating system and its layered products. Others enjoy running video games on the original computer they played with when they were children. (Eventually I hope to enjoy Super Star Trek by making enhancements and fixing bugs.) > And how can life be too short for a hobby? A hobby, surely, is what you > do because you enjoy it ;-) Correct. So If I spend 6 months reducing the number of words used in low memory by the SL: (Single Line Editor) in RT-11, I consider that challenge acceptable. If you spend 6 months getting an PDP-11/44 to run, you consider that acceptable. Together these two OCDs actually produce a much better result, but by themselves, they are really not as useful. For example, I just spent most of the last week of July finding out why a PDP-11/73 would not boot. Finally found that the DRV11 (M7941) was bad and it crashed the system. But I don't have the skills to fix the board, so I purchased a used one that did work. But at the same time, I did check that all the software was OK. And previously, I had upgraded that system from RQDX3/RD53/RX50 to a SCSI based CQD 220/TM/ST11200N and an Iomega Zip drive. So while I am able to swap boards (so I can keep the hardware running), I find that I prefer to spend any extra time on software. I know that you prefer to tinker with hardware. I really don't think your preference is any better or worse (although on some occasions I would really enjoy knowing the details that you do), just different. For example, can you toss off a one instruction program to test that the interrupt vectors work on a DRV11? And use hardware ODT on a PDP-11 to test it? You probably can. But then can you go on to write a complete program that can exercise all of the functions of a DRV11? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Aug 6 13:50:59 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 PLUS and FDF11 option References: <15213.47596.938252.42666@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15213.49875.400661.316678@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3B6EE712.7ED083B2@idirect.com> >Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'd like to see you fit one in a Pro350, though :-) (you did say any > > F11-based system). But actually, if you could power it somehow, I think it > > would work with the Pro. > I thought of exactly that when I typed it...and I'm considering > trying it! :-) Jerome Fine replies: Let us Know!! From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Aug 6 13:50:52 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: FS: DZV11's (M7957) w/ cab kits References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010805164518.02a6a050@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B6EE70C.1B4884DE@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > Found some more boards that are of no use to me, for the price of dropping > them off USPS priority ($7.50) you too can own a DZV11, the original four > port serial card for the Q-bus. They come with a 40 pin ribbon cable and > the 4 port DB25 bulkhead. (you can also use these bulkheads on the DHV11s > and others. > [Snip] Jerome Fine replies: I have some as well, but I hope to switch to the DZQ11 (dual board - I am running out of backplane space) since eventually I want to test the software and see how it works. I also have the DZV11 manual if someone can scan it and put it online - unless that has already been done. Also have the DHV11 manual. Plus, does anyone have a spare DLV11-J four port DB25 bulkhead? Also called a cabinet kit. I have a few spare cables in case that part is missing and a couple of DLV11-J boards (M8043) I can't use very easily. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 6 14:11:04 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's > > > onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them > > > look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value > > > quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now. > > > > What car? They don't all use the same controllers, you know... > > Want a fuel injection "brain" from a 1968 VW Squareback? Had Bosch come up with EFI already by 1968? Every VW (and Audi & MB, etc) of that vintage that I've seen used CIS, which was a purely mechanical system. I have seen a 1969 Audi Super 90 (wagon) that had an aftermarket Capacitative Discharge Ignition (CDI) System... by 1974, Audis had those as stock, while CIS was still 1 year off... My 1986 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro uses a Motorola 6802-based controller... very simple to upgrade, too.... ;-) -dq From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 6 14:33:51 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <15214.46791.16312.650386@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 6, Some incomptent dolt named John Foust the Loon wrote: > > The Economist stands head and shoulders above most US media [...] > > talking about. Obviously the author was referring to the > > Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer > I prefer to associate the use of real computers with KNOWLEDGE, > rather than financial failure. ...or thriftyness. > I don't think I've ever read anything quite so infuriating on this > mailing list. Agreed. When some miniscule-brained nitwit insults all of us who appreciate well-designed computer systems, and who appreciate a variety of different systems, and then defends a biz-'driod propaganda sheet and that glorified example of bug-filled code called Microsoft Windows that was originally designed to run on poorly engineered hardware, then it's time to do take action. Heh, what he doesn't know is when to expect that action (1 day or 5 years from now), or what it will be... and even funnier, he probably thinks this is a bluff. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Mon Aug 6 14:17:37 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: pigware Message-ID: Matthew Sell @classiccmp.org on 08/06/2001 01:21:53 PM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org cc: Subject: Re: Blanket insults for one's peer group Nor did the average computer user REQUIRE 64 Megs of RAM and 60 GB drive space to run that word processor, either.... : ) - Matt "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- True... For grins-n-giggles I loaded up DOS on my AMD T-Bird 900 MHz box with 512M or RAM when a certain bloated pig'ware OS crashed because it was "out of resources" and ran Descent - a game designed to run on a 50MHz processor... It ran like a spotted ape! Wonderful framerates! I like the tagline BTW, and Descent came out in um.... 1993 I think, maybe 1992. So it's almost vintage. - M.S. From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 6 14:55:00 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> Message-ID: [flames-mode on, asbestos-suit on] On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, A snot rag emeritus rumored to be John Foust appears to have scribbled the following from his Fisher-Price keyboard: > At 10:49 PM 8/4/01 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > >...and it also shows what incompetent loonies the publishers of biz > >rags like the Economist apparently are, to actually believe that all > >computers crash frequently and are unreliable like Windoze PeeCees. > >Talk about incompetent journalism! > The Economist stands head and shoulders above most US media > in terms of the depth of thinking in most of its articles. If it did, then it wouldn't have published that drivel. It was an example, pure and simple, of incompetent journalism. If they don't know enough about computers to understand that not all computers and operating systems crash frequently, and are otherwise as unreliable as Microsoft rubbish, then they have no business printing computer related articles. However, since when did a lack of knowledge prevent know-it-all biz-'droids from being self-appointed authorities on any given topic? They're good at screwing up the world, but, hey, no problem for them; they just pay some politicians to put the blame elsewhere, > Perhaps you could browse their web site to see what I'm So they can get attempt to get some marketing info. from cookies on my system, right? Crawl back into your gutter, gutterball. Of course, anyone as thick-skulled as you is most likely impervious to insults; what a shame, because you really need some to sink into that little mind of yours and shrink your ego a bit---since your head may explode as it, apparently, wasn't designed for anything large, like that ego, to be inside of it. > talking about. Obviously the author was referring to the > Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer > on the planet, at least among those of us who don't live > in their parent's basement. Well, I don't live in my parents basement, but if any members of this list do, I'd not be ridiculing them for it, publicly or privately. Of course, unlike you, I don't get my jollies from giving cheap low blows like you appear to enjoy giving. > I know this isn't going to help my debate with you, but > it's one of the few magazines that Bill Gates takes the > time to read. :-) That figures. Need I say more? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 6 14:38:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Wildly OT: RE: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > The Economist stands head and shoulders above most US media > > in terms of the depth of thinking in most of its articles. > > Perhaps you could browse their web site to see what I'm > > talking about. Obviously the author was referring to the > > Windows PC, the mostly commonly used type of personal computer > > on the planet, at least among those of us who don't live > > in their parent's basement. > > Now THAT's a pretty shitty thing to say. Personally, I moved into my > own place when I was 19, thank you very much, and have been > supporting a good portion of my family for several years. Dave- Actually, I probably resemble R.D.'s remark more than anyone else on the list, but regardless of his intent, I can't take it as an insult. I moved into my parents' basement in 1969. By 1975, it had become such a popular place that coming in through the front door (which required screening by the folks) got to be too much of a bother, so people would just knock on the window and we'd pull it out and them in. I stayed there until I moved out to shack up with some fellow hippies***. I stayed there until I realized I was the only hippie with a salary and all mine was going into the group support (though life there did have its compensations). I then moved back home to the parents' basement where I remained until they died. Now it's my basement. I immediately moved upstairs into the master bedroom. And no curtain climbers to distract from the accumulation, er, hobby... However, the basement today is a lonely place... Regards, -doug quebbeman *** The 1967 "Death of Hippie" at the Human Be-In at People's Park in Bezerkly notwithstanding. From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 6 15:00:55 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: [the Economist, read by Bill Gates] > It's also popular among sitting US presidents. That explains a lot. No wonder this world's safest for the mindless. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 13:48:38 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Supertalker software includes the Vocal Preparation System (VPS) for > > developing phrase diskettes. A phrase diskette can have numerous tables > > containing words, phrases, and complete sentences. > > Argh!. Whatever software should have come with this board is long > since lost (I never had it). Ditto the speaker, but that's no problem > at all... Me too :( Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 6 14:52:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@smart.net] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 3:34 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East > makes The Economist > > > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: [..Dave's comments snipped...] > Agreed. When some miniscule-brained nitwit insults all of us who > appreciate well-designed computer systems, and who appreciate a > variety of different systems, and then defends a biz-'driod propaganda > sheet and that glorified example of bug-filled code called Microsoft > Windows that was originally designed to run on poorly engineered > hardware, then it's time to do take action. Heh, what he doesn't know > is when to expect that action (1 day or 5 years from now), or what it > will be... and even funnier, he probably thinks this is a bluff. Dang. Thanks to someone's screwed up message quoting, I quoted Dave and thought he was quoting you, so you'll see a message briefly in which I attribute to you remarks you appear not to have made. Sorry! My message isn't bad, but I don't like things attributed to me that I didn't say, regardless of the remarks or context, so I'd expect you might feel likewise. Again, sorry, but I think you'll be more amused by the post than anything else... Regards, -doug quebbeman From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 14:55:08 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <3B6EACF7.890E9DCE@internet1.net> Message-ID: May have just been the way I read into it as well, but even at that I've come across pallets of 5150's just this year that I could have had for $10 for the whole pallet, minus monitors and keyboards but I have no desire or need and no time to monkey with them since I already have over a dozen of them in different configs, and all (but one) working. That isn't that rare and there are still many in daily use as terminals and GP utility machines in my area. A local volunteer fire dept uses one with an older Wordstar to keep logs and do GP letters and it works great for them, even without a hard drive. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:43 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM 5150 PC -> -> -> Russ, -> -> I don't hink he meant that dual floppies were rare. I think his mention -> of, "Rare", in the title is simply the oligatory, "Rare", that Ebay -> requires every seller to use when selling somthing for profit, that -> isn't really worth all that much :-) -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> -> Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > -> > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - -> how many buyers -> > you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where -> they get the -> > idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I have -> (except 2) -> > have dual floppies, the other two I would consider more rare -> as they have FH -> > 5mb hard drives and a controller. -> > -> > See item 1262107020 at -> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1262107020 -> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 14:55:06 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And with a 5151 or CGA monitor and keyboard it would do real nice on auction, especially with pics and a decent description. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:41 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: IBM 5150 PC -> -> -> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many -> > buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where -> > they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I -> > have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider -> > more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. -> -> No pictures, and it's not being marketed as a "collector's item". I'm -> willing to be an IBM 5150 that a properly worded auction right now will -> fetch a decent amount. -> -> Sellam Ismail Vintage -> Computer Festival -> ----------------------------------------------------------------- -> ------------- -> International Man of Intrigue and Danger -> http://www.vintage.org -> -> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 14:55:04 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They've been on ebay in all sorts of condition all year long but they still tend to go high near the auction's end. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Master of all that -> Sucks -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:13 AM -> To: Sellam Ismail -> Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM 5150 PC -> -> -> -> I want to get my hands on a 5155. That would rule. -> -> Peace... Sridhar -> -> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: -> -> > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, ron ron wrote: -> > -> > > Do anyone know where I can find an IBM 5150 pc for sale. thanks rami. -> > -> > Looks like the 20th anniversary of the PC that all the major -> media outlets -> > seem to be covering is starting to have a speculation effect. Time to -> > dust off that pile of 5150's and get them onto eBay :) -> > -> > Sellam Ismail Vintage -> Computer Festival -> > -> ----------------------------------------------------------------- -> ------------- -> > International Man of Intrigue and Danger -> http://www.vintage.org -> > -> -> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 14:55:02 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: True and half of mine are the older 16-64's and the other half are the newer 64-256k types. I've had people locally tell me that they had an "orignal IBM PC" and when I got to look at it the thing only had one 5 pin DIN (no cassette port) and had 8 slots - of course they were 5160 XT's. I did get one free once that ended up being some sort of metwork controller built in/around a 5150 but it was toasted and I've since gotten rid of it (it had a totally different number like a 34xx or something) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin -> (XenoSoft) -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:19 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: IBM 5150 PC -> -> -> Let's keep in mind also, that the 16-64K motherboard is far more -> valuable/rare/suckerbait than the 64-256K board. -> -> > > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many -> > > buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where -> > > they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I -> > > have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider -> > > more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. -> -> The 5MB hard drive is third party after-market. The first hard -> drive that -> IBM marketed for it was 10M. -> Are third party after-market accessories more or less valuable than OEM? -> -> The two floppy drive is certainly the most common. -> One drive is less common, and no drives is the least common, although no -> such configuration is truly RARE. -> Strange, considering that IBM was charging $500 per drive, and using the -> same drives as the TRS-80 (~$200 after market for the same brand/model -> (Tandon TM100-1)) -> -> -> But, ... it makes the block-off plates that IBM used whenever -> there wasn't -> a drive R@RE & VALUABLE! (they're much nicer than the aftermarket -> block-offs, and have a metal backing/bracket. -> -> -> -> > No pictures, and it's not being marketed as a "collector's item". I'm -> > willing to be an IBM 5150 that a properly worded auction right now will -> > fetch a decent amount. -> -> "willing to BE an IBM 5150"????? -> Confusing. Well, ... one of my students who watches too many cop shows -> on TV told me that, at least in California, "5150" is cop radio slang for -> a person with "mental problems making them a threat to themselves or -> others". -> -> Eventually I realized that it was a typo, and he meant to say that he was -> willing to "BET". -> -> -> I'd better be careful. Noticing other people's typos could eventually -> lead to my being held accountable for my own spellling misteaks. -> -> -- -> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com -> -> From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 6 11:07:02 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: References: <01C11E0A.A8433E90.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <20010806200139.SBHW28468.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:22:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: Master of all that Sucks > To: Jim Tuck > Cc: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" > Subject: Re: MCA systems > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > I wouldn't call a 9576 "Cheesy". They're really nice machines. PS/2s are > some of the best-built (and heaviest) PCs ever built. > > Peace... Sridhar True. Only time I ever come across minimum low-end and heavy was model 35. 25lbs just in chassis and cover, floppy tray (good 1lb itself without floppy drive itself), PSU. I've P75 and Model 70-Axx, three days ago, came across storage expansion box (based on stripped 95xx tower and refitted with 7 drive bays (2 or 3 of them is for 5.25" FH) no drives and still weighs like 30lbs. all of them except 70 and P75 (mostly plastic) are thick gauge steel and PSUs which are very HEAVY. But other items that made the P7x heavy were in display panel, PSU (IBM tried to lighten it unsucessfully by using tin sheets wrapped around plastic chassis to keep PSU in shape, fault is using copper heatsinks and heavy transformers. Completely stipped P7x shell weighs about 3 to 4lbs. With care IBM can make strong machines with less steel and less massive PSUs, besides they have knowledge already. They should talk to apple who designed quality plastic boxens in past. Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:58:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 6, 1 12:13:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/38137e10/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 13:08:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Aug 6, 1 02:04:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/f0ad7061/attachment.ksh From mranalog at home.com Mon Aug 6 15:03:39 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: An analogue tale Message-ID: <3B6EF81B.1329FC77@home.com> This is a short story I promise. About two years ago I pick a couple of op-amps off of eBay. I'm pretty sure I actually bought them from Rich Cini. These op-amps are Philbrick Researches, vacuum-tube type, K2s. Anyway, one of the amplifiers had cracks down both sides of the Bakelite base. Someone had broken it open to see the insides. So, I decided to get a little arty, and took a photo of two K2-Ws, one with and one without it's Bakelite case, laying on top of a data sheet for the K2-W. And I put a copyright notice under the picture on my little museum. http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/k2w.jpg Then last month, I received an email from a graphic arts company in Palm Springs saying that they wanted "this title only" rights to use the picture for a college textbook. > "McGraw-Hill Higher Education in Burr Ridge, > IL is preparing a college engineering text > called Engineering Circuit Analysis 6/e, by > Hayt, Kemmerly and Durbin. They would like > to use one of your images from this Website > in the text:" > "George A Philbrick Researches 1952 -Model K2-W > opamp with and without it's Bakelite shell/ > @ Doug Coward, 2000" . I mailed back the release about a week ago, and there is no guarantee that the picture will not be cut, but maybe I've made it to hard cover. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 15:13:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: pigware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >True... For grins-n-giggles I loaded up DOS on my AMD T-Bird 900 MHz box >with 512M or RAM when a certain bloated pig'ware OS crashed because it was >"out of resources" and ran Descent - a game designed to run on a 50MHz >processor... It ran like a spotted ape! Wonderful framerates! > >I like the tagline BTW, and Descent came out in um.... 1993 I think, maybe >1992. So it's almost vintage. The 3 CD's of the 'Descent I and II - The Definitive Collection' are copyrighted 1997 but I know that Descent I came out long before that. 1992/93 sounds about right though. It was always one of my favorite 3D shooter games. That and Marathon on the Mac. The specs listed for Descent I are a 486DX2-66, DOS 5 and 8MB of RAM. Descent II required Win95 and was accelerated for the S3 Virge 3D chipset. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Aug 6 15:08:55 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Let's keep in mind also, that the 16-64K motherboard is far more >valuable/rare/suckerbait than the 64-256K board. I have looked through maybe a couple dozen 5150, and passed on another half dozen last week (although its curious now my saavy friend grabbed them up and asked for more), but I still only have about 3 or 4 at home and none are 16-64k motherboards. None are in especially "nice" condition either, good shape, but they show there age. Just thinking about it, if I put together a NICE complete 5150 system, monitor, keyboard, mouse, set of IBM sleeved manuals, loaded original software etc., like hell I would put it on ebay. I am pretty sure I have all the bits, except that my manual set is a bit newer. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 6 15:17:43 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806093951.00c27cc0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806145705.00c25cc0@pc> At 03:55 PM 8/6/01 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >If it did, then it wouldn't have published that drivel. It was an >example, pure and simple, of incompetent journalism. If they don't >know enough about computers to understand that not all computers and >operating systems crash frequently, and are otherwise as unreliable as >Microsoft rubbish, then they have no business printing computer >related articles. I know the English language can be subtle and all, especially when written by a Brit and read by a resident of the US, but I do not see where you're coming from. I fail to see where your over-the-top ranting is justified by such an innocuous article. It was clear to me the author was talking about today's most commonly used computers. He wasn't trying to state that these old computers must crash and virus. For his lead paragraph, he used a common perception of today's computers users: that crashes and viruses are not actions that make most people love their computers, but gee, look at these geeks who like old computers. I'm surprised he didn't mention trainspotting. I think the VCF should be glad for the publicity in such a highly regarded magazine. I'd rather be there than Wired any day. >So they can get attempt to get some marketing info. from cookies on my >system, right? Crawl back into your gutter, gutterball. Yes. The VCF article was a trick designed to steal cookies from the highly valuable demographic group of those who collect computers that are more than ten years old. And it will also add fluoride to your water. And it's my fault they use cookies, so flame away. Let's talk about something fun, like how many times Sellam has taken Christine Finn to lunch, or vice-versa. - John From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 15:13:24 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2F@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: > pulled the plug on that one, so I think they're using a PPC derivative now. Would it be one of the 400-series embedded chips I enjoy playing with? Peace... Sridhar From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Mon Aug 6 15:36:17 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: An analogue tale References: <3B6EF81B.1329FC77@home.com> Message-ID: <3B6EFFC1.5A4E7FB0@tinyworld.co.uk> Doug Coward wrote: > > So, I decided to get a little arty, and took a photo of two K2-Ws, > one with and one without it's Bakelite case, laying on top of a data > sheet for the K2-W. And I put a copyright notice under the picture > on my little museum. That's a very nice picture, Doug. I love the lettering showing through the glass. And a computing timeline that goes back to 87 BC! I must read on... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Aug 6 15:25:56 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >> > > Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's >> > > onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them >> > > look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value >> > > quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now. >> > >> > What car? They don't all use the same controllers, you know... >> >> Want a fuel injection "brain" from a 1968 VW Squareback? > >Had Bosch come up with EFI already by 1968? My wifes 68 VW fastback had it. I remember we paid something like $168 for a rebuilt brain. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 6 15:38:31 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255B2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Spaketh Russ Thus: > True and half of mine are the older 16-64's and the other half are the newer > 64-256k types. I've had people locally tell me that they had an "orignal IBM > PC" and when I got to look at it the thing only had one 5 pin DIN (no > cassette port) and had 8 slots - of course they were 5160 XT's. I did get > one free once that ended up being some sort of metwork controller built > in/around a 5150 but it was toasted and I've since gotten rid of it (it had > a totally different number like a 34xx or something) Someone else on the list recently mentioned having a bunch of the m-boards, but I never determined whether they were the 16-54s with the casette interface or not. I've still got an original case waiting for an m-board w/casette and hopefully a BASIC ROM... Regards, -dq From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 6 16:00:34 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Wildly OT: RE: Blanket insults for one's peer group, was Re: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Actually, I probably resemble R.D.'s remark more than anyone > else on the list, but regardless of his intent, I can't take > it as an insult. Doug, kindly note that I'm not the one who made the remark about classic computer collectors living in their parents' basements; it was John Foust who wrote that. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 15:47:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Cray EL-98 located in Boston reached it's reserve today. It's now reserve-free at $4000. With 6 days left on the auction, it should be interesting to see just what it goes for. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 6 16:16:00 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: References: <01C11E0A.A8433E90.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010806141522.032f5690@mail.zipcon.net> In case of Earthquake, snuggle up to the side of your PS/2 Full towers :) they'll practically hold a building up... At 09:22 AM 8/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >I wouldn't call a 9576 "Cheesy". They're really nice machines. PS/2s are >some of the best-built (and heaviest) PCs ever built. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Aug 6 16:09:39 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Vax 6000 (fwd) Message-ID: Contact original poster. -- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:02:27 -0500 (CDT) From: rachel@arthur.avalon.net To: port-vax@netbsd.org Subject: Vax 6000 We have a Vax 6000 series, I don't have it near me so I don't know the exact model right now, I think it was a 480, or something akin. It has some kind of upgrade, since the badge on the back says upgraded to. 65BUA-AF Which is a 400/500 upgrade for the 6000 Vaxen. Right now all I have that wasn't bought is the CPU rackunit, and all of the cards, in the original state that they same in on. I also have a Dec Array 650 that came in with it, though Ibelieve one drive may be missing. They are very heavy, and I am sure more costly to ship than the item is worth. I am in Iowa City, Iowa. I'd like to find this thing a great home. I am also aware that the NetBSD vax port went Multi-CPU, and well, supports many of the 6000 series now. So I will give any help to anyone that wants data on it, or perhaps even eventually send the non-heavy cards to people that may be developing or have a good use for them. From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Aug 6 16:16:09 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Fuel injection (was RE: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors?) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Had Bosch come up with EFI already by 1968? Yeah, D-Jetronic. Basically a solid-state version of the Vacuum-tube EFI demonstrated by some Bendix engineers in the '50s -- in fact the Bosch electromechanical injectors are based on the Bendix patents they purchased, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is also true for the incredibly clever MAP sensor that made it all go (Bendix exec's didn't see why anyone would want such a thing are were happy to be rid of the technology). D-Jetronic first showed up in 1968 on the VW type III. > Every VW (and Audi & MB, etc) of that vintage that I've seen used > CIS, which was a purely mechanical system. K-Jetronic/CIS first showed up in 1973 on the 911. The earlier mechanical systems used by MB, BMW (on the Tii) and Porsche on the 911RS/RST/RSR were Bosch or Kuglefischer mechanical injection, which is _very_ different from CIS -- it's a mechanical injection pump that provides sequential injection of fuel based on throttle position, engine temperature and, in the Bosch case barometric pressure. The engine map that in modern digital systems is encoded in ROM is represented in the pumps by a 3D cam. It's actually quite clever. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 16:17:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Want a fuel injection "brain" from a 1968 VW Squareback? > Had Bosch come up with EFI already by 1968? yes. > Every VW (and Audi & MB, etc) of that vintage that I've seen used > CIS, which was a purely mechanical system. Then you've never seen any VWs of that vintage. In 1968, ALL VW type 1 (beetle) and type 2 (bus) used a single carburetor. The type 3 was Botch electronic fool injection (Lots of wires and senders, and a "brain" in the left rear fender) There was no type 4 yet. through about 1964, the VW type 3 (squareback/ "fastback"/ and the "rare" "notchback") had a single sidedraft Solex carb, with single port heads. Then they switched to to two Solex carbs ????? -2 and -3 '67 VW type 3 had the two carburetors (with dual port heads) In 1968, the type 3 switched over to Botch electronic fool injection. It was a 1600cc engine. It required a little tweaking to make the EFI work with 2180 (the maximum size that that block could be readily expanded to.) > I have seen a 1969 Audi Super 90 (wagon) that had an aftermarket > Capacitative Discharge Ignition (CDI) System... by 1974, Audis > had those as stock, while CIS was still 1 year off... > My 1986 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro uses a Motorola 6802-based > controller... very simple to upgrade, too.... ;-) [every time somebody doubts the existence of stuff, I double the price on it due to its obvious rarity!] -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 16:24:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think the keyboard is the most valuable part of the package. A lot of people like those keyboards. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > And with a 5151 or CGA monitor and keyboard it would do real nice on > auction, especially with pics and a decent description. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail > -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:41 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: RE: IBM 5150 PC > -> > -> > -> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > -> > -> > Someone beat you to it with 10 untested main units on ebay - how many > -> > buyers you think will know to get the right monitor? I wonder where > -> > they get the idea that dual floppy is rare on them? All of the ones I > -> > have (except 2) have dual floppies, the other two I would consider > -> > more rare as they have FH 5mb hard drives and a controller. > -> > -> No pictures, and it's not being marketed as a "collector's item". I'm > -> willing to be an IBM 5150 that a properly worded auction right now will > -> fetch a decent amount. > -> > -> Sellam Ismail Vintage > -> Computer Festival > -> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -> ------------- > -> International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -> http://www.vintage.org > -> > -> > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 16:26:41 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <20010806200139.SBHW28468.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: But you can't run over a G4 with a truck. I once ran over a 9595 with a 1979 Dodge Power Ram with a three-axle conversion and a Cummins engine. Didn't even crash the disks. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Only time I ever come across minimum low-end and heavy was model 35. > 25lbs just in chassis and cover, floppy tray (good 1lb itself > without floppy drive itself), PSU. > > I've P75 and Model 70-Axx, three days ago, came across storage > expansion box (based on stripped 95xx tower and refitted with 7 drive > bays (2 or 3 of them is for 5.25" FH) no drives and still weighs > like 30lbs. all of them except 70 and P75 (mostly plastic) are thick > gauge steel and PSUs which are very HEAVY. > > But other items that made the P7x heavy were in display panel, > PSU (IBM tried to lighten it unsucessfully by using tin sheets > wrapped around plastic chassis to keep PSU in shape, fault is using > copper heatsinks and heavy transformers. Completely stipped > P7x shell weighs about 3 to 4lbs. > > With care IBM can make strong machines with less steel and less > massive PSUs, besides they have knowledge already. They should talk > to apple who designed quality plastic boxens in past. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 16:27:50 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The case and the monitor are my favorite parts. It would be my everyday use "laptop" running UCSD p-System. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I want to get my hands on a 5155. That would rule. > > Well, the one I fall over in my bedroom doorway is not up for grabs > :-)... Are they really that difficult to find? > > You do know it's a standard PC/XT motherboard in there. With a standard > PC floppy controller and CGA adapter. The keyboard is electrically the > same as a PC/XT keyboard as well. > > The only odd bits (apart from the case) are the PSU, the floppy drives > (half-height, 40 cylinder) and the monitor (composite video input, plugs > into one of the Berg headers on the CGA card, I think the monitor is > actually a Zenith chassis). > > > -tony > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 16:30:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a PC/XT in original trim plus an AST Sixpack+, and every IBM sleeved manual (with original working disks) you can think of, even the IBM Timesharing System and UCSD p-System. I even have the IBM Sleeved version of CP/M. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >Let's keep in mind also, that the 16-64K motherboard is far more > >valuable/rare/suckerbait than the 64-256K board. > > I have looked through maybe a couple dozen 5150, and passed on another half > dozen last week (although its curious now my saavy friend grabbed them up > and asked for more), but I still only have about 3 or 4 at home and none > are 16-64k motherboards. None are in especially "nice" condition either, > good shape, but they show there age. > > Just thinking about it, if I put together a NICE complete 5150 system, > monitor, keyboard, mouse, set of IBM sleeved manuals, loaded original > software etc., like hell I would put it on ebay. I am pretty sure I have > all the bits, except that my manual set is a bit newer. > > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 16:34:51 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010806141522.032f5690@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: I once (just to prove it could be done) held my 1990 Toyota Camry Sedan up on six PS/2 model 80s. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > In case of Earthquake, snuggle up to the side of your PS/2 Full towers > :) they'll practically hold a building up... > > > At 09:22 AM 8/6/01 -0400, you wrote: > > >I wouldn't call a 9576 "Cheesy". They're really nice machines. PS/2s are > >some of the best-built (and heaviest) PCs ever built. > From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Mon Aug 6 16:35:28 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: pigware (Descent) Message-ID: Jeff Hellige @classiccmp.org on 08/06/2001 03:13:26 PM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org cc: Subject: Re: pigware >>True... For grins-n-giggles I loaded up DOS on my AMD T-Bird 900 MHz box >>with 512M or RAM when a certain bloated pig'ware OS crashed because it was >>"out of resources" and ran Descent - a game designed to run on a 50MHz >>processor... It ran like a spotted ape! Wonderful framerates! >> >>I like the tagline BTW, and Descent came out in um.... 1993 I think, maybe >>1992. So it's almost vintage. > > The 3 CD's of the 'Descent I and II - The Definitive >Collection' are copyrighted 1997 but I know that Descent I came out >long before that. 1992/93 sounds about right though. It was always >one of my favorite 3D shooter games. That and Marathon on the Mac. >The specs listed for Descent I are a 486DX2-66, DOS 5 and 8MB of RAM. >Descent II required Win95 and was accelerated for the S3 Virge 3D >chipset. > > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8 Meg... true, true. The version of D2 you have may "require" win95, but the Win95 "port" (well, it was more of a wrapper for the game really) of Descent 2 came out ummm... 9 months or so after D2 was released. Interplay released it as a DOS game originally, (I think in 1994) and then Win95 came out a year later and they released the "Win95 enhanced version." with much pomp and circumstance. (On that note, FASA/Hasbrough (?) released Mechwarrior Mercenaries a similar way: write the game as a DOS game with IPX network support, with a Win95 wrapper so win95 would think that it was a wingame. ...now back to your regularly scheduled programming... - M.S. From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 6 12:44:26 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: References: <20010806200139.SBHW28468.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010806213910.TOJU10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:26:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: Master of all that Sucks > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: MCA systems > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > But you can't run over a G4 with a truck. I once ran over a 9595 with a > 1979 Dodge Power Ram with a three-axle conversion and a Cummins > engine. Didn't even crash the disks. Remarkable. Meaning this is where that machines even 95xx is not meant to be out there like this. Outside enviroment will do number on steel and hard drives when wet. Please tell this story because running over that 9595 is a quite a accident or on purpose? Just good design case shouldn't have to be heavy and useful indoors. If needs toughness and weatherproofing, has to be industial chassis. Cheers, Wizard > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 16:25:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <3B6EE6EF.FB5AF927@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Aug 6, 1 02:50:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7176 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/65424914/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 16:47:46 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010806141522.032f5690@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: They do pretty well at supporting a solid core door for a temp table too. Not bad for a plastic material. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Geoff Reed -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:16 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: MCA systems -> -> -> In case of Earthquake, snuggle up to the side of your PS/2 Full towers -> :) they'll practically hold a building up... -> -> -> At 09:22 AM 8/6/01 -0400, you wrote: -> -> >I wouldn't call a 9576 "Cheesy". They're really nice machines. -> PS/2s are -> >some of the best-built (and heaviest) PCs ever built. -> -> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 16:47:44 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255B2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: I'll be going through that stuff soon (mid August) and if I have what you want I wouldn't mind pulling the MB and working something out with you. Hey how's $1000 sound - hey they're RARE :-)) That's way lower than the $25,000 computer. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 3:39 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: IBM 5150 PC -> -> -> Spaketh Russ Thus: -> -> > True and half of mine are the older 16-64's and the other half -> are the newer -> > 64-256k types. I've had people locally tell me that they had -> an "orignal IBM -> > PC" and when I got to look at it the thing only had one 5 pin DIN (no -> > cassette port) and had 8 slots - of course they were 5160 -> XT's. I did get -> > one free once that ended up being some sort of metwork controller built -> > in/around a 5150 but it was toasted and I've since gotten rid -> of it (it had -> > a totally different number like a 34xx or something) -> -> Someone else on the list recently mentioned having a bunch of the -> m-boards, but I never determined whether they were the 16-54s with -> the casette interface or not. I've still got an original case waiting -> for an m-board w/casette and hopefully a BASIC ROM... -> -> Regards, -> -dq -> From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Mon Aug 6 16:53:16 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010804005859.00c24220@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <3B6F11CC.19759C1B@tinyworld.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > > PCHL is a one byte opcode that jumps back to 0000h. I guess RST 0 > would work too. No, RST 0 will push the return address. There are quite a few solutions to this. Here are some given in the June 1979 issue of PCW: For the purists who think that the code should start at 0: 0000 21 06 00 LXI H,0006 0003 54 MOV D,H 0004 5C MOV E,H 0005 F9 SPHL 0006 D5 PUSH D 0007 E9 PCHL The first instruction sets the HL registers to 0006 (00 in H, 06 in L) and the next two set the D and E registers to zero using the data (00) in H. The stack pointer SP is then loaded with 0006 from HL. 'Pushing' the DE registers in the next instruction writes zeros into locations 0004 and 0005 and the stack pointer is reduced by two to 0004. The next instruction, PCHL, means 'jump to the address stored in HL' which, since HL contains 0006 means that the execution continues with the PUSH D instruction. Successive Pushes write pairs of zero bytes _down_ through memory, past location 0000 to FFFF and on until, after 32767 pushes, the only two bytes in memory which are not zero are the PUSH D and PCHL instructions themselves. The 32768th PUSH overwrites these last two and the whole of memory is set to zero. The most popular of the shortest possible solutions was this: FFFA 31 FC FF LXI SP,FFFC FFFD CD FD FF CALL FFFD The first instruction sets the stack pointer to FFFC, the byte before the next instruction. The CALL instruction which follows calls itself at location FFFD pushing the return address, which happens to be 0000, onto the stack. With successive CALLs the stack pointer works downwards through memory writing pairs of zero bytes. After the 32767th CALL only two bytes, FFFD and FFFE, remain unaffected so that the last CALL, which overwrites these last two bytes, jumps to location 00FD. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 16:55:32 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I have a PC/XT in original trim plus an AST Sixpack+, and every IBM >sleeved manual (with original working disks) you can think of, even the >IBM Timesharing System and UCSD p-System. I even have the IBM Sleeved >version of CP/M. That just about describes my 5155, complete with Sixpack+, p-System, C/PM-86 and Concurrent CP/M. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 09:23:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <003701c11db6$3f4dc800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <1086.618T1800T9235177optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >I'm only gradually coming to appreciate that there are who, like you, enjoy >just HAVING a given machine. My attitude has always been that a computer >isn't a computer unless it computes. Clearly, that's not the only point of >view. Well, yoiu can't really say that my Goldstar isn't a computer. It's just a smashed computer. And the computing aspect is important. After all, the entire design of the Goldstar is based on the fact that it's a computer. Otherwise, I might just as well be collecting those plastic mock-up computers they sometimes use in office displays at IKEA or even old vacuum cleaners. It's a bit of a cross between an interest in computers and an interest in industrial design. Had there not been a Z80 in the HC-200, it would just have been another pretty plastic box. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 6 16:57:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255B7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Want a fuel injection "brain" from a 1968 VW Squareback? > > Had Bosch come up with EFI already by 1968? > yes. > > Every VW (and Audi & MB, etc) of that vintage that I've seen used > > CIS, which was a purely mechanical system. > Then you've never seen any VWs of that vintage. What I meant... > In 1968, ALL VW type 1 (beetle) and type 2 (bus) used a > single carburetor. What I meant was that if it didn't use a carb, all I'd seen was CIS. I thought EFI was a 70s invention; I stand corrected! And BTW, I seek-and-destroy Solex carbs; they were designed only for the purpose of being replaced by a Weber! > The type 3 was Botch electronic fool injection (Lots of wires and senders, > and a "brain" in the left rear fender). There was no type 4 yet. Ah, yes, the Audifans also use this "fool" designation... > through about 1964, the VW type 3 (squareback/ "fastback"/ and the > "rare" "notchback") had a single sidedraft Solex carb, with > single port heads. > Then they switched to to two Solex carbs ????? -2 and -3 > '67 VW type 3 had the two carburetors (with dual port heads) Audi created a monster in Europe with the Audi Coupe 100, which came in a version that had dual 32/36DGV Solex's... 130HP, not bad for that engine, if you know it's history (4 cyl OHV, the block got redesigned into an OHC for the Porsche 924 and some VW truck sold only in Europe, not to mention the Jeep). > In 1968, the type 3 switched over to Botch electronic fool injection. > It was a 1600cc engine. It required a little tweaking to make the EFI > work with 2180 (the maximum size that that block could be readily expanded > to.) So, prior to the fuel crisis and emission controls, what was the motivating factor for the use of EFI? And why bother with CIS once you have EFI (spraying fuel into cylinders at off-times never maid sense). > > I have seen a 1969 Audi Super 90 (wagon) that had an aftermarket > > Capacitative Discharge Ignition (CDI) System... by 1974, Audis > > had those as stock, while CIS was still 1 year off... > > My 1986 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro uses a Motorola 6802-based > > controller... very simple to upgrade, too.... ;-) > > [every time somebody doubts the existence of stuff, I double > the price on it due to its obvious rarity!] I'll have to cruise by the E-Bay VW section... didn't know you were prevalent there too! -dq From terryc at woa.com.au Mon Aug 6 17:24:50 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Fibre Optic Cable 1005-0078 References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010806130553.00a959d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3B6F1932.1EC3D64F@woa.com.au> joe wrote: > > Just as a guess I'd say that it might be a cable for some the disk drives > that HP made that used a fiber optic link. I've seen some of the drives but > I've never seen the cable that goes with them. Thanks. Quite possible from me short involvement with the site. It had HP kit and would try hw for performance. A combo of a recently acquired new hard disk array and staff changeover probably explained why no one had any idea what it was for, so it was dumpstered in the relocation. I think I will just see about changing the terminations. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 6 17:43:50 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston Message-ID: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> I spent the last 4 days down in Houston and had a chance to shop for about 2 hours during the trip. I picked up the following: 1. Commodore CBM Model 8032 2. Commodore CBM Model 4040s Dual drive floppy disk unit. 3. Itellivision Computer adapter model 4182 with attached keyboard. 4. IBM 3299-002 5. AMIGA 1010 ext. 3.5 FD 6. Timex Sinclair 2068 in the box 7. Sega-CD model 1690 There were a couple more items but they are not yet 10 so I will list them another time. I wish I had a little more time to look on this trip every store I went into found something. Keep computing. From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Aug 6 17:35:39 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255B7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Douglas Quebbeman wrote: [stuff delete] > So, prior to the fuel crisis and emission controls, what was > the motivating factor for the use of EFI? Cost, weight and reparability. Mechanical injection pumps have to be mechanically timed to the engine (either gear or belt driven off the cam), require their own oil supply and return lines, and have about 973 parts ranging in size from large to itty-bitty. When the 3D cam starts to wear (and it does) it effectively changes the map of the engine, and anytime you modify the engine in terms of displacement or compression (or even futz with the exhaust too much) you have to re-profile that weird 3D cam -- something that requires taking the pump to bits and having a Really Good Time in a fairly specialized machine shop. With D (and L) Jetronic there are knobs that can be turned (although there are fewer on D -- and the D MAP sensor, while clever, is also just plain weird), meaning that engine tweaks -- or completely different engines -- can be accommodated with more or less the same hardware. > And why bother with CIS once you have EFI (spraying fuel into > cylinders at off-times never maid sense). Actually, it makes perfect sense when you realize that you're not spraying fuel into the cylinder, you're spraying it onto the back of the (presumably warm) intake valve, which increases the thermodynamic efficiency of the injection process. It's not as if there's bucketloads of time for fuel to pool given how fast the valve is cycling, even at idle. As for "why CIS", it's basically the same answer as "Why D-Jetronic" -- save for the fact that the system is almost completely mechanical and therefore doesn't have the failure modes on 1960's electronics stuffed into a hostile automotive environment. Essentially the same hardware works on everything from VWs to BMWs to the Porsche 930 -- in general the only real differences are the size of the calibration slot in the fuel distributor (which is a distinct, changeable unit), the profile and diameter of the airflow horn (which is a simple and inexpensive part to make -- and if you're crazy enough can be tweaked with tape-a-weights) and the bias pressure applied by the warm-up regulator (which is also pretty much the same across most products). CIS was great because it was bone-simple but produced results at least as good as D-Jetronic with far better reliability. L-Jetronic fixed many of the problems of D-Jetronic, but wasn't good enough to displace it from existing designs. It took Motronic to do that... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 6 17:36:23 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! References: Message-ID: <00d901c11ec8$47d33100$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I paid quite a bit more for mine... but this one does appear to be the genuine Apple article...looks like it's been in storage a while as the unicos tape shown is v6.x and the latest available for the EL is 8.x or 9.x - add another 8k$ to license it since Cray-->SGI-->Tera don't have "hobbyist use" licensing programmes. Its strange that this machine has a nice VME cage with two IOPs but is running a cylinder short on the vector cpu cards. More typical is the 4 vpu card system rather than this 3 one has. The half gig of memory is on heavily packed boards loaded with ZIP package dram - likely 256k by 4 or 1 chips with lots of nasty flying lead series terminating 33 ohm resistors on all signals - maybe added as an afterthought to improve signal integrity. I expect it will sell for more than the typical J90s people used to ask 10k$ only a few months back but recently have only been fetching <$US5k. ELs tend to be more rare and certainly are nicer to look at than J90s - though they also have their beauty in the wavy rack doors. Even rarer is the EL-92, I know of only one person owning one of these diminutive Crays. The German machine has been pulled from both US and DE ebays- after running for a second time after the high bidder reneged. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=12612 28599 You can see in the pics, the large boards lying on "antistatic" newspaper after the machine was dismantled/defiled.. The large ceramic chips are the custom LSI-LOGIC VPU ASICS and memory (ECC of course, 64 bit word) controllers on the ZIP filled cards. The CPU clock rate is only 33Mhz but still manages 133Mflops per processor card. These CMOS machines were derived from the SuperTek XMS S-2 (Cray bought Supertek when they went under). Most interesting is that Cray signed a sales/service distribution deal with of all companies -DEC- but but later cancelled when they couldn't sell enough units. The YMP-EL gave rise to EL-98, 94 and 92 models and was the basis for the J90, J90se (100Mhz clock) and SV1(300Mhz) systems. Later, Cray would use the DEC Alpha 21044 in the T3D & T3E massively parallel systems - the start of the end for vector supercomputers. Though ELs were always considered "baby Crays" - entry level machines for educational use or for code development (code compat with YMP "production machines") they are the only series, along with J90s that a typical (rich) hobbyist could reasonably acquired and run (@6KW/hr). Cray actually referred to them as "Vector Superminis" rather than true Supers. (One advantage of J90s is that they can be upgraded to SV1s at extreme cost. Moving from 100Mhz to 300Mhz and faster dram yields 1.2Gflops/cpu. and 4.8Gflops from their "multistreaming" CPUs.) Here's the relevant faq for those interested. http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/park/abm64/CrayWWWStuff/Cfaqp1.html Regards, Heinz >Jeff Hellige wrote: > > The Cray EL-98 located in Boston reached it's reserve today. > It's now reserve-free at $4000. With 6 days left on the auction, it > should be interesting to see just what it goes for. From Mzthompson at aol.com Mon Aug 6 17:50:50 2001 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: DEC manuals available Message-ID: Earlier today I scribbled: > The DEC haul from last month included some manuals that I > already have so I will make them available to the list. > The manuals and the quantities: > TK50 Tape Drive Subsystem; User's Guide - 2 copies > TK70 Streaming Tape Drive; Owner's Manual - 1 copy > TZK10 Cartridge Tape Drive; User Guide - 1 copy > TZK12 525mb SCSI Tape Drive; Installation Guide - 2 copies > VT320; Installing and Using the VT320 Video Terminal - 2 copies The TK50, TK70, & VT320 manuals are all spoken for. The TZK10 & TZK12 manuals are still available. Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 17:47:55 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Heinz Wolter) References: <00d901c11ec8$47d33100$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <15215.7835.134368.403681@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 6, Heinz Wolter wrote: > Most interesting is that Cray signed a sales/service distribution deal > with of all companies -DEC- but but later cancelled when they couldn't > sell enough units. The YMP-EL gave rise to EL-98, 94 and 92 models > and was the basis for the J90, J90se (100Mhz clock) and SV1(300Mhz) > systems. Later, Cray would use the DEC Alpha 21044 in the T3D & T3E > massively parallel systems - the start of the end for vector > supercomputers. Gotta correct you here, Heinz...The Cray MPP and PVP families have coexisted for some time, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. Massively parallel scalar systems can't replace vector processors for all applications. They're not considered to be "newer" or "better" in any way, just different. The SV2, for example, is about to ship, with its successor in the design stages right now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Fedsouilles at aol.com Mon Aug 6 17:58:39 2001 From: Fedsouilles at aol.com (Fedsouilles@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: epson Q150A , i need a hard disk :) Message-ID: hi , i am french and i just had a epson portable but it doesn't have any hard disk , only two floppies , could you help me finding one on the net i am really lost , or at least do you know what kind of HD do i need ? THANKS A LOT :)) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010806/115d3913/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 18:10:54 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Heinz Wolter) References: <00d901c11ec8$47d33100$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <15215.9214.75510.352438@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 6, Heinz Wolter wrote: > Most interesting is that Cray signed a sales/service distribution deal > with of all companies -DEC- but but later cancelled when they couldn't > sell enough units. The YMP-EL gave rise to EL-98, 94 and 92 models > and was the basis for the J90, J90se (100Mhz clock) and SV1(300Mhz) One other point...The T90 comes between the J90 and the SV1. Also, the SV1ex was announced four months ago. The T90 and SV1 both come in around 1 gigaflop/proc, and the SV1ex runs 2 gigaflops/proc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Aug 6 18:20:21 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool Message-ID: <20010806182021.J1898@mrbill.net> http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ I just wish someone had a project like this that could be produced in quantity. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Gary.Messick at itt.com Mon Aug 6 16:04:07 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B31@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> > > pulled the plug on that one, so I think they're using a PPC > derivative now. > > Would it be one of the 400-series embedded chips I enjoy playing with? > > Peace... Sridhar > Again, I'm not sure. When I left they were working on a software development console previous to any hardware being designed. The software development console was VME based and used a MOT PPC601 if I remember correctly. Not sure whatever made it into production. Gary From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 6 18:27:44 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <20010806213910.TOJU10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: Heavy is putting it lightly on the 9595's - my 9595-OPT has a 4.3 3.5" boot drive and two seagate FH 5.25" 9 gb drives besides the 1.2mb floppy and the included 2.88 3.5" floppy and all the cards that go in it, including 2 ethernet cards, XGA-2 card, 2 SCSI/2 F/W controllers, etc. It's a hernia in the making. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jpero@sympatico.ca -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:44 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: MCA systems -> -> -> > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:26:41 -0400 (EDT) -> > From: Master of all that Sucks -> > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > Subject: Re: MCA systems -> > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> -> > -> > But you can't run over a G4 with a truck. I once ran over a -> 9595 with a -> > 1979 Dodge Power Ram with a three-axle conversion and a Cummins -> > engine. Didn't even crash the disks. -> -> Remarkable. -> -> Meaning this is where that machines even 95xx is not meant to be out -> there like this. Outside enviroment will do number on steel and -> hard drives when wet. -> -> Please tell this story because running over that 9595 is a quite a -> accident or on purpose? -> -> Just good design case shouldn't have to be heavy and useful indoors. -> -> If needs toughness and weatherproofing, has to be industial chassis. -> -> Cheers, -> -> Wizard -> -> > -> > Peace... Sridhar -> > -> > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: -> > -> -> From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 17:45:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806145705.00c25cc0@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > I think the VCF should be glad for the publicity in such a highly > regarded magazine. I'd rather be there than Wired any day. I am. The publicity is always welcomed. I didn't chime in on this because I dismissed R.D.'s remarks as his typical mad-man rantings. I'm sure he means well :) > Yes. The VCF article was a trick designed to steal cookies from the > highly valuable demographic group of those who collect computers that > are more than ten years old. And it will also add fluoride to your > water. And it's my fault they use cookies, so flame away. I'm almost done with the by-laws for the forthcoming Vintage Computer Festival: Secret Society for Hardware Hackers (or VCF: SSHH!) > Let's talk about something fun, like how many times Sellam has taken > Christine Finn to lunch, or vice-versa. I think we're about evenly split, probably somewhere around 10-12 times each for lunch and dinner dates. We've even shared a room or two before in various spots around the world. I'll leave it up to the dirty minded pervert nerds to imagine what may or may not have happened during such occasions (hint: nothing). Did that quench your National Enquirer-esque thirst for rumor and innuendo? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From owad at applefritter.com Mon Aug 6 18:44:11 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble Message-ID: <20010806234411.10788@mail.earthlink.net> This is likely off-topic - I have no idea how old the DEC 3000 is - but I'm hoping it will fall cool hardware exception. I think its either a model 600 or 700. At any rate, its very large and is a tower design. I have not yet used the system and am trying to get it to boot. I do not have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor for it, so I need to connect via terminal, but am having som trouble. For a terminal, I am using an Apple Powerbook G4 with ZTerm set to 9600, 8, n, 1. I'm using a Keyspan USB-Serial adapter and a null modem adapter. I've connected my "terminal" to the 25 pin printer serial port on the DEC 3000. I power up the DEC, it does its whirling and spinning up, but I never get anything at all on my terminal. I've tried booting with the S3 switch (whicdh I understand is supposed to change from kb/ mouse/monitor to console mode) in both directions, but to no avail. The LED on the front reads "FD". It's possible that the RAM I have installed (which I got from another DEC 3000) is not appropriate for the system. Any suggestions on what I need to do to get this to work are very much appreciated. This is completely out of my area of expertise and I hate to keep power cycling the DEC while I experiment. Thanks! Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 17:48:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > I have a PC/XT in original trim plus an AST Sixpack+, and every IBM > sleeved manual (with original working disks) you can think of, even > the IBM Timesharing System and UCSD p-System. I even have the IBM > Sleeved version of CP/M. Impressive! I have quite a few myself (including the UCSD p-System package) but have never heard of the Timesharing System or the CP/M package. I'm getting closer to cataloguing them so hopefully soon we'll be able to see just what I do have (and the excess goes for sale on the VCF Marketplace so other people can complete their collections :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 17:51:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > 3. Itellivision Computer adapter model 4182 with attached keyboard. Sweet. Is this the rare one with the brown case and multi-colored keys or the silvery-white one with red trim and chiclet keyboard? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 18:22:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010805195103.02be96b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <489.619T1000T225061optimus@canit.se> Arthur E. Clark skrev: >IIRC, the RGB specs for the //e, //c, IIgs, and /// series were all >variations on an odd analog RGB system designed by Apple. I believe that >starting with the color Macs, they embraced a more traditional, but still >proprietary, digital TTL spec. AFAIK no colour Macs have ever used digital video. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 18:35:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <464.619T2350T356311optimus@canit.se> Master of all that Sucks skrev: >I have a PC/XT in original trim plus an AST Sixpack+, and every IBM >sleeved manual (with original working disks) you can think of, even the >IBM Timesharing System and UCSD p-System. I even have the IBM Sleeved >version of CP/M. Yawn... So many PCs... why? OTOH, that IBM timesharing system sounds remotely interesting, what is it? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL! TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER! From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 19:20:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806122221.00bf0da0@pc> Message-ID: <186.619T2450T806323optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >I forgot. The computer industry didn't have crashes, lost documents >or viruses until Windows arrived. Three words: Sinclair RAM pack. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 19:31:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010806102415.00aa4b90@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3847.619T2100T915257optimus@canit.se> joe skrev: >At 02:10 AM 8/5/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>Went to the junkyard with a mate today and found (well, stepped on) an ugly >>HP something. It's a HP 9000 (Yay!) 226 (?h?), > aka 9826. It's a 8 MHz 68000 CPU baed system that runs HPL (HP's >version of APL), BASIC or Pascal. Most of the OS were disk based but you >could get them on plug in ROM cards. The really interesting thing about the >OS is that you canhave multiple OSs (and muiltiple versions of the same >one) on the same drive or even multiple drives and you can select the one >that you want it to boot. Very nice for tinkering. All in all, it's not a >bad machine. They're wided used as HP-IB instrument controllers. We were very impressed by the 68000 processor, both the fact that it used one and the processor itself, since it's a bona-fide Motorola model, and an expensive gold and ceramics one at that. Very pretty to look at, just like the ROMs. >>which is a clumsy box with a small >>CRT and a 5?" floppy as well as an integrated keyboard. This unit had been >>retired from the telemonopoly (well, all the stickers date back to that >>time), which ad apparently modified it into some kind of luggable >>workstation by putting a biug brass handle which seems to have come off a >>door on one side of the unit. > I wonder if the handle is original? There was an option for some kind >of handle from HP but I've never seen one. As absurd as it seems, it may have been intended for certain portable applications by design, what with the space for a battery pack in a compartment in the bottom. OTOH, the handle and the small shock absorbing feet both seem to come from a furniture shop, not a computer one. =) >>Apart from the handle, it has been equipped with an RS-232 interface >>and additional memory cards, adding up to roughly 1,7 MB. >>The unit powers up fine, the screen looks nice, but the keyboard has been >>massacred, with five or six keys missing. > That's not a problem, the keys from most of 9000 200 series machi8nes >will fit it. Oh, well, isn't that nice, I'll just go to the shop and buy some HP 9000/200 keytops then. ;-) >>But now what? The system is looking >>for a system. What system does it run, and is software obtainable anywhere? > Yes, software is available. I have it but it's almost impossible to >duplicate. You have to "build" the system from files on the distribution >disks, then you save it as a new system file. The problem is that the >system file is too large to fit on a floppy disk so there's no way to >distribute it except by shipping a complete hard drive with the system >installed on it or by making copies of the original distribution disks. I >have copies of a number of different versions of all three OSs that I've >picked up on hard drives but I've never been able to find ANY original >distribution disks. That leaves shipping complete hard drives as the only >way to distribute OSs for the moment. And we're not taling about just >shipping a bare hard drive. The drives use the HP-IB interface so you need >the entire unit which is about 13 inches square and 5 inches tall and they >weigh about 15 pounds. Your best bet would be to check the surplus >sources in your area and see if you can find any HP hard drives (7957, >7958, 9133, 9134, 9153 etc etc). I've found that frequently they still the >OS on them. I know of no surplus sources in my area. I'll have the check the university cellar when the semester begins, though, they use some HP and HP-IB equipment. > I used to have a long detailed article about the HP 9000 at my website >but my ISP deleted them. You may be able to find them in the cache at >google or one of the other search engines. Search for "HP 9000 200 series >computers". Riger will do. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer hackers do it all night long. From avickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 6 18:52:24 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010807005224.009f0280@192.168.1.2> At 04:47 pm 06/08/2001 -0400, you wrote: > The Cray EL-98 located in Boston reached it's reserve today. >It's now reserve-free at $4000. With 6 days left on the auction, it >should be interesting to see just what it goes for. > Heck, for $4000, I'd buy it... I'm not entirely sure how I'd get it back to the UK though, although I do have a power rail good enough for 24A and space to put it. Hmmm... Will it run Windows 2000? Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Aug 6 19:11:26 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <20010806182021.J1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B6F322E.EA132636@tiac.net> How much interest would you have in an Imlac PDS-1 reimplementation? I was having a conversation with a chip designer just today..... Bill Bradford wrote: > http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > > I just wish someone had a project like this that could be > produced in quantity. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Aug 6 19:11:22 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: from Master of all that Sucks at "Aug 6, 1 01:34:37 pm" Message-ID: <200108070011.RAA11400@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > It wasn't really even customized. If memory serves, these machines can > > > run AIX5L as it ships. > > > > Actually I think they had a few oddities that did not make them 100% > > RS6000 compatible, I seem to remember that some models (if not all of the > > Apple AIX servers) used ADB keyboards, and had apple talk ports (do not > > quote me on this). I think that they are only supported from AIX 4.1.x to > > 4.2.x. I might be wrong..... > > But AIX5L (and probably 4.1.1+) ships with ADB and AppleTalk drivers > (adapted from MkLinux, I believe). Also, AIX5L has a two-stage bootloader > capable of bootstrapping from Mac ROMs. All of the ANSes have ADB keyboard and mouse, and regular Mac mini-DIN serial ports. The Apple AIX CD is specific to the ANS and will not boot on another platform, nor will a generic AIX work on the ANS. In fact, I have corrupted NVRAM and OpenFirmware simply by trying to apply the Y2K patches for 4.1.4.x. Apple AIX is *not* the same as the standard AIX, though fortunately they are 99.99999% binary compatible (drivers may have some issues). I have never played with AIX5L, but because of the uniqueness of the ANS I'm quite certain it will not boot AIX5 without modifications. I certainly wouldn't risk it on my server, especially since I have the stock OS patched the way I like it. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Why did the chicken cross the Moebius strip? To get to the other ... uh ... From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Aug 6 19:13:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: from "Francis. Javier Mesa" at "Aug 6, 1 09:55:34 am" Message-ID: <200108070013.RAA10396@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > It wasn't really even customized. If memory serves, these machines can > > run AIX5L as it ships. > > Actually I think they had a few oddities that did not make them 100% > RS6000 compatible, I seem to remember that some models (if not all of the > Apple AIX servers) used ADB keyboards, and had apple talk ports (do not > quote me on this). I think that they are only supported from AIX 4.1.x to > 4.2.x. I might be wrong..... To my knowledge, not even that far. My support CDs say 4.1.5 max. I own both 4.1.4.1 and 4.1.5. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When you're in love, the whole world is German! -- "Hogan's Heroes" -------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 19:15:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <20010806213910.TOJU10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <20010806200139.SBHW28468.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20010806213910.TOJU10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: >Just good design case shouldn't have to be heavy and useful indoors. > >If needs toughness and weatherproofing, has to be industial chassis. Even a lot of the non-IBM systems I've seen have had really solid cases but it does certainly hold true for the true blue IBM machines as well. As you know, even the P70 has a pretty solid case. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Aug 6 19:21:06 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: <20010806234411.10788@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Tom Owad wrote: > This is likely off-topic - I have no idea how old the DEC 3000 is - but > I'm hoping it will fall cool hardware exception. > > I think its either a model 600 or 700. At any rate, its very large and > is a tower design. I have not yet used the system and am trying to get > it to boot. I do not have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor for it, so I > need to connect via terminal, but am having som trouble. The 600 is a desktop model, so I am assuming that you are referring to a 700. The DEC 3000's usually expect the keyboard/mouse cable to be present. If it doesn't detect them it will generate an error. In order to use it as a headless system make sure you flip the small switch that is on the back where all the ports are. Then the machine will ignore the keyboard error and use the serial console port. > For a terminal, I am using an Apple Powerbook G4 with ZTerm set to 9600, > 8, n, 1. I'm using a Keyspan USB-Serial adapter and a null modem > adapter. I've connected my "terminal" to the 25 pin printer serial port > on the DEC 3000. That is not a serial port, actually it is parallel. The serial ports in the DEC3000 are MMJ type, which is a modied phone jack and propietary to DEC. Try to find an MMJ to DB9 or 25 converter. That is your serial port... I power up the DEC, it does its whirling and spinning > up, but I never get anything at all on my terminal. I've tried booting > with the S3 switch (whicdh I understand is supposed to change from kb/ > mouse/monitor to console mode) in both directions, but to no avail. > > The LED on the front reads "FD". It's possible that the RAM I have > installed (which I got from another DEC 3000) is not appropriate for the > system. Putting RAM is also tricky, you need to put them in groups of 8 simms per bank, all of the same type in each bank. A bank is defined by all the simms at the same height (the model 600, which I am familiar with has the memory simms plugged into 4 sets of raisers, so bank 1 = all the simms that go near the motherboard from the bottom, and bank 2 = all the simms that go on top of bank 1) /--> simm raiser / i.e. Bank2 ====-| |-==== --> simm | | Bank1 ====-| |-==== | | ------------------- (motherboard) > Any suggestions on what I need to do to get this to work are very much > appreciated. This is completely out of my area of expertise and I hate > to keep power cycling the DEC while I experiment. Good luck, hope this helps... > Thanks! > > Tom _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 19:24:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS for parts In-Reply-To: <489.619T1000T225061optimus@canit.se> References: <489.619T1000T225061optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >AFAIK no colour Macs have ever used digital video. Which is why it's a fairly simple cable change to go between the two as long as the monitor sense line is taken into account. There are certainly enough adapters from various manufacturers out there made to do just that, going both directions. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 19:27:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group In-Reply-To: <186.619T2450T806323optimus@canit.se> References: <186.619T2450T806323optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >I forgot. The computer industry didn't have crashes, lost documents >>or viruses until Windows arrived. > >Three words: Sinclair RAM pack. Gosh yes.....the slightest little jiggle and the ZX-81 would reset. There was absolutely no support on the thing at all so contact would break for just about any reason, or no reason at all. Happened to me plenty of times while learning to program on my TS-1000 when it was new. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 18:40:45 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <3B6F322E.EA132636@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > How much interest would you have in an Imlac PDS-1 reimplementation? That would be really cool! I'd buy one (after I got my own working :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From avickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 6 19:39:26 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Blanket insults for one's peer group In-Reply-To: <186.619T2450T806323optimus@canit.se> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010806122221.00bf0da0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010807013926.009f0280@192.168.1.2> At 01:20 am 07/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >John Foust skrev: > >>I forgot. The computer industry didn't have crashes, lost documents >>or viruses until Windows arrived. > >Three words: Sinclair RAM pack. > They didn't crash: They wobbled... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From curt at atari-history.com Mon Aug 6 19:50:10 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC References: Message-ID: <002001c11eda$e922cb80$c2609040@syzygy2> Isn't this month the 20th anniversary of "Chess" the IBM PC???? Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:48 PM Subject: RE: IBM 5150 PC > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > > I have a PC/XT in original trim plus an AST Sixpack+, and every IBM > > sleeved manual (with original working disks) you can think of, even > > the IBM Timesharing System and UCSD p-System. I even have the IBM > > Sleeved version of CP/M. > > Impressive! I have quite a few myself (including the UCSD p-System > package) but have never heard of the Timesharing System or the CP/M > package. I'm getting closer to cataloguing them so hopefully soon we'll > be able to see just what I do have (and the excess goes for sale on the > VCF Marketplace so other people can complete their collections :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 6 20:00:17 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: References: <20010806234411.10788@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010806210017.00bfcde0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Francis. Javier Mesa may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Tom Owad wrote: [snip] > I power up the DEC, it does its whirling and spinning >> up, but I never get anything at all on my terminal. I've tried booting >> with the S3 switch (whicdh I understand is supposed to change from kb/ >> mouse/monitor to console mode) in both directions, but to no avail. >> >> The LED on the front reads "FD". It's possible that the RAM I have >> installed (which I got from another DEC 3000) is not appropriate for the >> system. > >Putting RAM is also tricky, you need to put them in groups of 8 simms per >bank, all of the same type in each bank. A bank is defined by all the >simms at the same height (the model 600, which I am familiar with has the [snip] I very well could be wrong here, but my DEC 3000/300 (desktop machine, 150Mhz Alpha, 64Meg RAM uses banks of 4 each standard 72-pin true parity SIMMs... Were there any DEC 3000's that *required* 8 SIMMs in a bank? (or, more accurately, are the DEC 3000/300's the only 3000's that need only 4 SIMMs per bank?) Cheers, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 20:28:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <3B6F11CC.19759C1B@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <272.619T2900T1486093optimus@canit.se> Paul Williams skrev: >There are quite a few solutions to this. Here are some given in the June >1979 issue of PCW: [snip] Thank you, Paul. Did you make those explanations yourself? They nearly made me think I understood Intel assembler. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 20:34:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: <00d901c11ec8$47d33100$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <412.619T1950T1545703optimus@canit.se> Heinz Wolter skrev: >The half gig of memory is on heavily packed boards loaded >with ZIP package dram - likely 256k by 4 or 1 chips with lots >of nasty flying lead series terminating 33 ohm resistors on all >signals - maybe added as an afterthought to improve signal integrity. Expect Amiga 3000 users hungry for ZIPs closing in on this machine like a pack of hungry buzzards. ;-) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 6 20:39:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <575.619T1550T1594931optimus@canit.se> Russ Blakeman skrev: >Heavy is putting it lightly on the 9595's - my 9595-OPT has a 4.3 3.5" boot >drive and two seagate FH 5.25" 9 gb drives besides the 1.2mb floppy and the >included 2.88 3.5" floppy and all the cards that go in it, including 2 >ethernet cards, XGA-2 card, 2 SCSI/2 F/W controllers, etc. It's a hernia in >the making. My 8595 has got a yellow warning label in the back stating that it weighs 18 kg+. I wonder if that's before or after adding full-height drives (only one in mine =). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Age is a high price to pay for maturity. From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Aug 6 20:22:06 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010806210017.00bfcde0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I very well could be wrong here, but my DEC 3000/300 (desktop machine, > 150Mhz Alpha, 64Meg RAM uses banks of 4 each standard 72-pin true parity > SIMMs... Were there any DEC 3000's that *required* 8 SIMMs in a bank? (or, > more accurately, are the DEC 3000/300's the only 3000's that need only 4 > SIMMs per bank?) The 300's are different from most of the other machines in the 3000 family. They use std 72pin simms, whereas the 5/6/7/8/900 use propietary DEC simms. The memory BW is also very different, that is the reason why the other models need 8 simms per bank, in its day these machines had pretty good memory BW. (256bit wide I think...) Cheers! _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From ernestls at home.com Mon Aug 6 20:25:10 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > Let's talk about something fun, like how many times Sellam has taken > > Christine Finn to lunch, or vice-versa. > > I think we're about evenly split, probably somewhere around 10-12 times > each for lunch and dinner dates. We've even shared a room or two before > in various spots around the world. I'll leave it up to the dirty minded > pervert nerds to imagine what may or may not have happened during such > occasions (hint: nothing). > > Did that quench your National Enquirer-esque thirst for rumor and > innuendo? So, this Christine person... is she a hottie? Any relation to Sheryln Finn? How long have you two been an item? hehe. E. From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 6 19:51:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: > So, this Christine person... is she a hottie? Any relation to Sheryln > Finn? How long have you two been an item? hehe. Ok, this is getting childish (and I thought *I* was immature :) Christine Finn is an archaeologist and a scholar devoting her time to the study of change over time in computer development, among other things. She is not a "hottie" in the sense you are using it. She's a professional researcher, and we have a professional relationship. We are not, nor have we ever been, an "item". We are colleagues and collaborators. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 6 21:03:27 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: MCA systems Message-ID: In a message dated 8/6/01 9:08:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, optimus@canit.se writes: << Russ Blakeman skrev: >Heavy is putting it lightly on the 9595's - my 9595-OPT has a 4.3 3.5" boot >drive and two seagate FH 5.25" 9 gb drives besides the 1.2mb floppy and the >included 2.88 3.5" floppy and all the cards that go in it, including 2 >ethernet cards, XGA-2 card, 2 SCSI/2 F/W controllers, etc. It's a hernia in >the making. My 8595 has got a yellow warning label in the back stating that it weighs 18 kg+. I wonder if that's before or after adding full-height drives (only one in mine =). >> heh, if you're talking about heavy IBM PC's, I got everyone beat. How about my PCRT or S/36 PC? those are heavy beasts! -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 6 21:29:24 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: Message-ID: <003d01c11ee8$c7c7f1a0$6f711fd1@default> It's the white one with red trim. The keyboard didn't seem to be chiclet, but it's down in Houston and I'm back up north (1100 miles away) and will have look at it again on my next trip down. Also picked up a VAX11/780 hardware user's guide (1979) in great shape with lots of good reading. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Finds in Houston > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > 3. Itellivision Computer adapter model 4182 with attached keyboard. > > Sweet. Is this the rare one with the brown case and multi-colored keys or > the silvery-white one with red trim and chiclet keyboard? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From owad at applefritter.com Mon Aug 6 21:18:36 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010807021836.20213@mail.earthlink.net> >> I think its either a model 600 or 700. At any rate, its very large and >> is a tower design. I have not yet used the system and am trying to get >> it to boot. I do not have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor for it, so I >> need to connect via terminal, but am having som trouble. > >The 600 is a desktop model, so I am assuming that you are referring to a >700. I found the name on the back. It's an 800. >The DEC 3000's usually expect the keyboard/mouse cable to be present. >If it doesn't detect them it will generate an error. In order to use it as >a headless system make sure you flip the small switch that is on the back >where all the ports are. Then the machine will ignore the keyboard error >and use the serial console port. Which way is flipped? Left or right? I've tried it both ways. >> For a terminal, I am using an Apple Powerbook G4 with ZTerm set to 9600, >> 8, n, 1. I'm using a Keyspan USB-Serial adapter and a null modem >> adapter. I've connected my "terminal" to the 25 pin printer serial port >> on the DEC 3000. > >That is not a serial port, actually it is parallel. The serial ports in >the DEC3000 are MMJ type, which is a modied phone jack and propietary to >DEC. Try to find an MMJ to DB9 or 25 converter. That is your serial >port... Searching for MMJ adatpers... Laster has MMJ to DB25 adapters for $0.51. To use this adapter, though, it looks like I'll also need an MMJ cable. 15 minutes later... I found a $7 cable at www.blackbox.com, but they want $14 for the adatpers. I need a straigt cable, right, as opposed to a crossed? I'm going to keep looking, but anybody have a cable and adapter they'd like to sell together? >> I power up the DEC, it does its whirling and spinning >> up, but I never get anything at all on my terminal. I've tried booting >> with the S3 switch (whicdh I understand is supposed to change from kb/ >> mouse/monitor to console mode) in both directions, but to no avail. >> >> The LED on the front reads "FD". It's possible that the RAM I have >> installed (which I got from another DEC 3000) is not appropriate for the >> system. Does "FD" mean anything in particular? >Putting RAM is also tricky, you need to put them in groups of 8 simms per >bank, all of the same type in each bank. A bank is defined by all the >simms at the same height (the model 600, which I am familiar with has the >memory simms plugged into 4 sets of raisers, so bank 1 = all the simms >that go near the motherboard from the bottom, and bank 2 = all the simms >that go on top of bank 1) I have the first card (of four cards) completely filled. >> Any suggestions on what I need to do to get this to work are very much >> appreciated. This is completely out of my area of expertise and I hate >> to keep power cycling the DEC while I experiment. > >Good luck, hope this helps... Yes it does. Thank you! Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 21:40:45 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <002001c11eda$e922cb80$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > Isn't this month the 20th anniversary of "Chess" the IBM PC???? IIRC, the IBM PC was officially announced August 11, 1981 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 21:47:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: A few more Apple ][ cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > You're probably right.... I can go and find the card again if there's any > real doubt. But if you know anything about Heuristics cards for the Apple > ][, then that would be interesting... Sorry, all that I know about them was lusting after them over 20 years ago. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 21:54:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: My other computer is a Cray! In-Reply-To: Re: My other computer is a Cray! (Iggy Drougge) References: <00d901c11ec8$47d33100$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <412.619T1950T1545703optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15215.22625.205945.916649@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 7, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >The half gig of memory is on heavily packed boards loaded > >with ZIP package dram - likely 256k by 4 or 1 chips with lots > >of nasty flying lead series terminating 33 ohm resistors on all > >signals - maybe added as an afterthought to improve signal integrity. > > Expect Amiga 3000 users hungry for ZIPs closing in on this machine like a pack > of hungry buzzards. ;-) Yes...but one of three dozen different kind of zips.... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Aug 6 22:41:47 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> Message-ID: <3B6F1D2B.6134.5D4028@localhost> Damn, I knew I shouldn't have gone on vacation and left the city open for you to come in. :-) I have a Timex 2068 but the Commodore stuff would have been nice to pick up. Have to go make the rounds now and see what you left behind. While I was on vacation I did find 2 copies of the Osbone PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide. When I returned I picked up 3 more RCA VIPs, 2 Atari 400s, 1 Atari 600xl, 1 Atari 800xl and some other misc items but all from Kelly here on the list who was clearing out some of his stuff. The Copy II PC Deluxe Option Board is pretty cool. On 6 Aug 2001, at 17:43, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I spent the last 4 days down in Houston and had a chance to shop for > about 2 hours during the trip. I picked up the following: 1. > Commodore CBM Model 8032 2. Commodore CBM Model 4040s Dual drive > floppy disk unit. 3. Itellivision Computer adapter model 4182 with > attached keyboard. 4. IBM 3299-002 5. AMIGA 1010 ext. 3.5 FD 6. Timex > Sinclair 2068 in the box 7. Sega-CD model 1690 There were a couple > more items but they are not yet 10 so I will list them another time. > I wish I had a little more time to look on this trip every store I > went into found something. Keep computing. > ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From technos at crosswinds.net Mon Aug 6 23:04:41 2001 From: technos at crosswinds.net (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:06 2005 Subject: MCA systems Message-ID: <01C11ED4.A47DEA60.technos@crosswinds.net> Of the original lot of eight systems I bought, one was lost, crushed to less than half the original height in most places by a moron forklift operator. Seems he was trying to stack a frame from an IBM 982 on it. Really comic. The faceplate snapped into fifty bits, the cdrom collapsed, the floppy was flat. Plugged it in, straightened the VGA connector with a screwdriver, kicked it a few times (memory had become unseated) and it booted DOS. Jim On Monday, August 06, 2001 5:27 PM, Master of all that Sucks [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] wrote: > > But you can't run over a G4 with a truck. I once ran over a 9595 with > a > 1979 Dodge Power Ram with a three-axle conversion and a Cummins > engine. Didn't even crash the disks. > > Peace... Sridhar > From diannetroup at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 23:06:35 2001 From: diannetroup at yahoo.com (Dianne K. Troup) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: I'm interested in getting my TI-59 working. It's in great shape but no AC adapter so don't know if the battery pack will charge. Do you have an AC adapter and/or battery pack to sell? Tony _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 6 23:07:14 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? References: <200108070013.RAA10396@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> Has anyone heard of DOS being available for the S-100 platform? A friend of mine is trying to gain access to an optical drive that was used on an S-100 system and says that DOS 3.1 was the system. I have not heard of DOS being used on S-100 systems, hence the question. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 23:19:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <20010806213910.TOJU10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: > > But you can't run over a G4 with a truck. I once ran over a 9595 with a > > 1979 Dodge Power Ram with a three-axle conversion and a Cummins > > engine. Didn't even crash the disks. > > Remarkable. Indeed. > Meaning this is where that machines even 95xx is not meant to be out > there like this. Outside enviroment will do number on steel and > hard drives when wet. This was sitting on my driveway temporarily. No exposure to weather. I have a feeling that even short exposure to weather wouldn't make much of a difference, if the machine were cleaned before it rusted. > Please tell this story because running over that 9595 is a quite a > accident or on purpose? It was quite by accident. I ran it over with the outer wheel. I thought I was running over a rock. > Just good design case shouldn't have to be heavy and useful indoors. It's light enough for me to carry, and I am a small man. > If needs toughness and weatherproofing, has to be industial chassis. The PS/2 series was designed to be operated in hotter and dustier environments than other PCs. Look at the ratings. Remarkable. Peace... Sridhar From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Aug 6 23:26:11 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> References: <200108070013.RAA10396@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010806212537.01f7e240@209.185.79.193> Yes, a couple of people sold MS-DOS for 8086 based S-100 systems, Compupro was one of them. --Chuck At 09:07 PM 8/6/01 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone heard of DOS being available for the S-100 platform? From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 23:21:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is it available? 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I have a PC/XT in original trim plus an AST Sixpack+, and every IBM > >sleeved manual (with original working disks) you can think of, even the > >IBM Timesharing System and UCSD p-System. I even have the IBM Sleeved > >version of CP/M. > > That just about describes my 5155, complete with Sixpack+, > p-System, C/PM-86 and Concurrent CP/M. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Aug 6 23:21:26 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> Message-ID: <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi John, where did you know where to go look? I am flying accross the country every now and then too, but I wouldn't know how to put those two available hours to productive use finding such good stuff you found, not in a foreign city. So, what's the secret in general, and does anyone know of good places to shop in Salt Lake City, Utah, or in Pasadena/Los Angeles, CA? thanks, -Gunther "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > > I spent the last 4 days down in Houston and had a chance to shop for > about 2 hours during the trip. I picked up the following: > 1. Commodore CBM Model 8032 > 2. Commodore CBM Model 4040s Dual drive floppy disk unit. > 3. Itellivision Computer adapter model 4182 with attached keyboard. > 4. IBM 3299-002 > 5. AMIGA 1010 ext. 3.5 FD > 6. Timex Sinclair 2068 in the box > 7. Sega-CD model 1690 > There were a couple more items but they are not yet 10 so I will list > them another time. I wish I had a little more time to look on this trip > every store I went into found something. Keep computing. -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 23:28:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <464.619T2350T356311optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: It's a multiuser terminal gateway through a 3270 connector to an S/370. It does multi-CHANNEL load balancing, which is impressive for the time it came out. Peace... Sridhar On 7 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Yawn... So many PCs... why? > OTOH, that IBM timesharing system sounds remotely interesting, what is it? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > MUSIK GÖR MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL! > TRÄD ANVÄNDER MAN TILL MÖBLER! > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 23:31:45 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll let Sellam answer most of the questions, but I have to say that the name of the actress in "Twin Peaks" is Sherilyn FENN. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: > So, this Christine person... is she a hottie? Any relation to Sheryln Finn? > How long have you two been an item? hehe. > > E. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Aug 6 23:32:16 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <20010806182021.J1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B6F6F50.558657E9@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I think this PDP-8/X reimplementation using FPGA technology is a really good piece of work AND it sets an example for something that could be very useful in the classic computer hobby. Re- implementations of PDPs, VAXen or other computers are one thing, also new IO modules for old computers are another interesting use are conceivable. Let's say one would build an OMNIBUS IDE disk adapter, or a VAXBI refrigerator adapter so one could use one's VAX 6000 for home automation :-). The disk adapters are particularly interesting, since a time will come -- and it is pretty much there yet -- at which it is about impossible to keep old MASSBUS disks running, so having a MASSBUS to IDE card might just come to the rescue. Great work (seriously!) -Gunther Bill Bradford wrote: > > http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > > I just wish someone had a project like this that could be > produced in quantity. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 23:33:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > heh, if you're talking about heavy IBM PC's, I got everyone beat. How about > my PCRT or S/36 PC? those are heavy beasts! No you don't. My Multiprise/3000 is far heavier than an RT. It's also quite large. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 6 23:35:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: <01C11ED4.A47DEA60.technos@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: Amazing. Amazing indeed. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Jim Tuck wrote: > Of the original lot of eight systems I bought, one was lost, crushed to > less than half the > original height in most places by a moron forklift operator. > > Seems he was trying to stack a frame from an IBM 982 on it. > > Really comic. The faceplate snapped into fifty bits, the cdrom > collapsed, the floppy was flat. > > Plugged it in, straightened the VGA connector with a screwdriver, > kicked it a few times > (memory had become unseated) and it booted DOS. > > Jim > > > On Monday, August 06, 2001 5:27 PM, Master of all that Sucks > [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] wrote: > > > > But you can't run over a G4 with a truck. I once ran over a 9595 > with > > a > > 1979 Dodge Power Ram with a three-axle conversion and a Cummins > > engine. Didn't even crash the disks. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > From ernestls at home.com Mon Aug 6 23:49:01 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:51 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: VCF East makes The Economist > > > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > So, this Christine person... is she a hottie? Any relation to Sheryln > > Finn? How long have you two been an item? hehe. > > Ok, this is getting childish (and I thought *I* was immature :) > > Christine Finn is an archaeologist and a scholar devoting her time to the > study of change over time in computer development, among other things. > She is not a "hottie" in the sense you are using it. She's a professional > researcher, and we have a professional relationship. We are not, nor have > we ever been, an "item". We are colleagues and collaborators. I'm just teasing ya, Man. I'm mentioned to you before how sincerely envious of you I am, for getting to spend time with an archaeologist/historian. I can only imagine the conversational possiblities that you're presented with, when you two are having dinner together. Sometimes, I would give just about anything to have someone like that to hang out with. E. From ernestls at home.com Mon Aug 6 23:51:27 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Master of all that > Sucks > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:32 PM > To: Ernest > Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: VCF East makes The Economist > > > > I'll let Sellam answer most of the questions, but I have to say that the > name of the actress in "Twin Peaks" is Sherilyn FENN. Darn. You're right. I should have looked it up. I was just teasing Sellam, anyway. E. From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Tue Aug 7 00:14:52 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Datasystems Design Board + RX33 floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010806221452.007bb320@yellow.ucdavis.edu> I see your email was accidently sent to classiccmp, but you piqued my interest because I have a big black DSD-880. Are you offering the manual for general sale? If not could I pay you to send me a scan/photocopy of the manual? Thanks, Edwin Davis, CA. At 02:25 PM 8/5/2001 -0600, you wrote: >For what it's worth, I have the manual for the DSD880... I can say for a >fact that it is like Jerome described, a big honkin' box with an 8 inch >floppy and a Shugart 10MB 8" disk drive, as well as custom microcoded >logic... The DSD440 is similar, but the one I had contained 2 8" FDD's and a >board covered in Intel 3000 series bitslice logic... So I do indeed doubt >that it could control anything else.. I do have another board that I want to >get rid of, with manual, that I seem to recall will control 5.25" floppies, >e-mail me if you might be interested, Sergio. I don't mind shipping it >across the water ;p > >Will J From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 7 00:25:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? References: <200108070013.RAA10396@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> Message-ID: <001701c11f01$52b1d8e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> In the early '80's it was quite routine to see MS-DOS or PC-DOS running on an S-100 or other 80x86 box. Given enough information about the DOS/PC interaction, it was quite straightforward setting up and running PC-DOS, given that one had a MONO-compatible or CGA-compatible display adapter and monitor and a keyboard handler that fit. There were even PC-emulators sold for the S-100, that had off-board memory, but on-board keyboard and video interface, along with the other PC essentials. They were seldom 100% compatible, however. If you're not fussy about all the "compatibility" problems, it's not difficult, once you have an 8086-family processor running. If you wanted to do that today, I'd recommend building an S-100<=>ISA adapter, and putting a "short" mono card and a PC keyboard adapter on a board, together with an ISA FDC/HDC board. That should be easy enough to manage. Somebody may even have one on the market. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:07 PM Subject: DOS for S-100? > > Has anyone heard of DOS being available for the S-100 platform? A friend of > mine is trying to gain access to an optical drive that was used on an S-100 > system and says that DOS 3.1 was the system. I have not heard of DOS being > used on S-100 systems, hence the question. > > From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Aug 7 00:38:02 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: Marvin's message of "Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:07:14 -0700" References: <200108070013.RAA10396@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> Message-ID: <200108070538.f775c2w20621@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin wrote: > Has anyone heard of DOS being available for the S-100 platform? Yes. Seattle Computer Products sold 86-DOS (with their 8086 processor card?). As Chuck mentioned, Godbout/CompuPro/Viasyn and/or Gifford Computer Systems sold a pre-customized version of DR's Concurrent DOS. This could support multiple users on different terminals, as well as one user on a CompuPro PC VIDEO card that provided a CGA-flavor display and IBM PC keyboard interface. There was an article in Micro Cornucopia describing the author's customization of MS-DOS for his S-100 system. -Frank McConnell From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Tue Aug 7 01:13:15 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" References: <272.619T2900T1486093optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B6F86FB.E00239C0@tinyworld.co.uk> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Thank you, Paul. Did you make those explanations yourself? They > nearly made me think I understood Intel assembler. =) No, they're straight from the magazine, from a time when I imagine many hobbyists would be interested. Now I think assembler only interests those of us who still have to count clock cycles for a living! Regards, Paul From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 7 01:22:00 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <3B6F6F50.558657E9@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010807005524.N37193-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Re-implementations of PDPs, VAXen or other computers are one thing, > also new IO modules for old computers are another interesting use are > conceivable. That's right. For each part, there will come a time when there are no more original, functioning instances. Our ability to continue the tradition will then lie in our ability to put something else in their place. > The disk adapters are particularly interesting, since a time will come > [...] so having a MASSBUS to IDE card might just come to the rescue. Indeed. However, what we should concentrate on **IMHO** is manufacturing new parts according to the old designs (e.g., building an RP05 from scratch) rather than grafting new technology onto the old (e.g., hooking an IDE drive to a Massbus controller). It might not be feasible now for some or most parts, but at some point between now and the advent of Star-Trek-style replicators, it will. "PDP, 11/70, hot!" -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From hansp at aconit.org Tue Aug 7 02:19:42 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <20010806182021.J1898@mrbill.net> <3B6F6F50.558657E9@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B6F968E.15AE054@aconit.org> Gunther Schadow wrote: > I think this PDP-8/X reimplementation using FPGA technology is > a really good piece of work AND it sets an example for something > that could be very useful in the classic computer hobby. There are a number of similar projects ongoing. One in particular I will mention is to put a complete PDP-10 processor on an FPGA. My image is a black box into which can be downloaded any processor architecture allowing that processors software to be run. Of course the processor is only one part of the picture I/O bings in a whole host of new problems. -- HBP From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 7 04:50:16 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: <20010807021836.20213@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200108070950.f779oHw00649@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Aug, Tom Owad wrote: > I found the name on the back. It's an 800. Nice. I am still looking for an Alpha of this class. > Searching for MMJ adatpers... Do you own / know how to handle a soldering iron? If yes, search the net for the wiring of a VAXstation MMJ serial console cable. It is the same. You may find a link to the MMJ cable wiring on this page: http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html It is easy to build a MMJ cable from a regular phone cable. Cut off the tab of the RJ plug and solder a DB25 at the other side of the phone cable. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 7 05:44:10 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: MCA systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've lugged plenty of AS/400 and S/36 systems around for various reasons, but they aren't really "personal" computers per-say. We hauled an IBM 6262 printer from a storage facility to my shop last week for repair - that is a beast. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE@aol.com -> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:03 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: MCA systems -> -> -> In a message dated 8/6/01 9:08:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, -> optimus@canit.se -> writes: -> -> << Russ Blakeman skrev: -> -> >Heavy is putting it lightly on the 9595's - my 9595-OPT has a -> 4.3 3.5" boot -> >drive and two seagate FH 5.25" 9 gb drives besides the 1.2mb -> floppy and the -> >included 2.88 3.5" floppy and all the cards that go in it, including 2 -> >ethernet cards, XGA-2 card, 2 SCSI/2 F/W controllers, etc. -> It's a hernia in -> >the making. -> -> My 8595 has got a yellow warning label in the back stating that -> it weighs 18 -> kg+. I wonder if that's before or after adding full-height -> drives (only one -> in -> mine =). -> >> -> heh, if you're talking about heavy IBM PC's, I got everyone -> beat. How about -> my PCRT or S/36 PC? those are heavy beasts! -> -> -- -> DB Young Team OS/2 -> -> old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: -> www.nothingtodo.org -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 7 06:51:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > > Re-implementations of PDPs, VAXen or other computers are one thing, > > also new IO modules for old computers are another > interesting use are > > conceivable. > > That's right. For each part, there will come a time when there are no > more original, functioning instances. Our ability to continue the > tradition will then lie in our ability to put something else in their > place. Right, Jeff. And this was a conversation I meant to finish with Tony Duell. I made a remark about the speed I was seeing in a particular simulator of old iron as run on a 233MHz Pentium-1 PC. Tony remarked that he didn't have a machine of the host class (the Pentium-1 PC), so the simulator was therefore not available to him, but that it didn't matter much to him because he prefers the *real* original iron anyway. And that's fine... I too, would love to own a Cyber 172, but even if I ever find one (doubtfull), I wouldn't be able to afford to turn it on even one time. So I wouldn't be able to enjoy it as a *computer*, but rather as an *object* (d'art or whatever). I suppose for someone who didn't have a history with a particular machine, that is, an old beast like a CDC 6600 or similar, that being able to recreate the *software* environment by having a simulator just doesn't mean much. But for mean, it means everything. The operating system and the language translators and utilities were my points of familiarity as a programmer; again, had I been an engineer on one of these systems, having something I could bootstrap might be less important. Now, the FPGA route is even better than a simulator, of course, because it's faster. Also, getting real old peripherals to work with a re- implemented CPU is also promising- in many cases, the FPGA board could be set in open space in old iron and the system be made to appear operational even if not! Oops, time for more coffee... -dq From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 7 07:00:54 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <20010806182021.J1898@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Aug 6, 01 06:20:21 pm Message-ID: <200108071200.IAA17821@wordstock.com> Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy Bryan > > http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > > I just wish someone had a project like this that could be > produced in quantity. > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 7 07:11:29 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > [stuff delete] > > > So, prior to the fuel crisis and emission controls, what was > > the motivating factor for the use of EFI? > > Cost, weight and reparability. Mechanical injection pumps have to > be mechanically timed to the engine (either gear or belt driven off > the cam), require their own oil supply and return lines, and have > about 973 parts ranging in size from large to itty-bitty. When the > 3D cam starts to wear (and it does) it effectively changes the map of > the engine, and anytime you modify the engine in terms of > displacement or compression (or even futz with the exhaust too much) > you have to re-profile that weird 3D cam -- something that requires > taking the pump to bits and having a Really Good Time in a fairly > specialized machine shop. But K-Jetronic (CIS) isn't timed at all- every cylinder port is getting fuel at all times. The fuel distributor controls how much by the area of the slots exposed int he control plunger as it moves up and down in response the the motions of the airflow sensor. But then again, as you and others have observed, CIS debuted later than I thought... so I don't know as much as I think I do! -dq From kentborg at borg.org Tue Aug 7 07:39:43 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <3B6B2ECD.8D6A0788@tiac.net>; from bshannon@tiac.net on Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:07:57PM -0400 References: <20010802164833.H17258@borg.org> <3B6B2ECD.8D6A0788@tiac.net> Message-ID: <20010807083943.A8923@borg.org> On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:07:57PM -0400, Bob Shannon responded to my quest for an ASR-33: > What have you got to trade? Um. Only recently has my wife started to weaken over my "need" for an ASR-33, and only more recently have I discovered this list--so I have accumulated extremely little good stuff. (I doubt you will find old Macintosh bits compelling...) I do have a Western Union clock ("Self Winding Clock Co., New York"), but I just got it repaired and haven't even taken it out of the box. I don't think I could part with it. (My wife likes the clock too.) The anticipation of restoring its old "U.S. Naval Observatory Time" claim via my basement server's NTP daemon is too much fun. I doubt my post-Soviet "genuine" Soviet submarine clock that doesn't run right would be of interest either. I think that leaves me with only with the possibility of money to offer. -kb, the Kent who used to run his e-mail through tIAC, but the Kent who finally escaped. From ssouchek at cfa.harvard.edu Tue Aug 7 08:08:45 2001 From: ssouchek at cfa.harvard.edu (Steven Souchek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Sparc2...FAILURE: No Trap Taken, Exp Trap Type - 00000009...Solved...simms in wrong banks...now more questions... Message-ID: <3B6FE85D.2A7A1AC@cfa.harvard.edu> I have a question. I have a Sparc2, 64mb mem, 2x4gb barracuda's. I got a hold of a sbus 10-100/scsi card and tried to install it. When it comes up, no beep, no screen. I'm figuring that it's not compatable but i would like to have someone tell me for sure. Is there anything I can do? I've unhooked everything. No Joy. Please let me know. -- Steven Souchek Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics 60 Garden Street Cambridge MA 02138 (617)384-7568 From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 7 08:25:49 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> I always find a copy of the local yellow pages and look up the thrift's in a new city. I have found that overall if you can locate Goodwill, Savers, Value Village, DAV's, Unique, to name a few that you will find something of interest at them. Goodwill is my first choice but they vary from city to city as some will not take computers at all (EPA issues) and others have them coming out the wood work. The prices vary at Goodwill also from a couple dollars to hundreds, some the Goodwill here in MN have volunteers that come in and test the electronics for them plus price them and these guys mark things way high. I have tried talking with a couple of them about the high prices but for some reason they acted like the items belonged them and not free items given to Goodwill. Savers is a private thrift and the prices are a little on the high side, Value Village if you can locate one are the lowest and always by second choice to shop at. Hope all this helps you. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Finds in Houston > Hi John, > > where did you know where to go look? I am flying accross the country > every now and then too, but I wouldn't know how to put those two > available hours to productive use finding such good stuff you found, > not in a foreign city. So, what's the secret in general, and does > anyone know of good places to shop in Salt Lake City, Utah, or in > Pasadena/Los Angeles, CA? > > thanks, > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 7 08:12:10 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 5.0 - Sept. 15-16 in San Jose, California Message-ID: VCF 5.0 is a little over a month away! Are you getting your exhibits ready? Vintage Computer Festival 5.0 September 15th and 16th, 2001 Parkside Hall - San Jose Convention Center San Jose, California http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/ Mark your calendar! The fifth annual Vintage Computer Festival is scheduled for the weekend of September 15th and 16th at Parkside Hall in San Jose, California. The Vintage Computer Festival is a celebration of computers and their history. The event features speakers, a vintage computer exhibition, and a vintage computer marketplace. We showcase all different types of computers for all differents kinds of platforms in all different shapes and sizes. EXHIBIT YOUR VINTAGE COMPUTER Vintage Computer Collectors: we want you! Exhibit your favorite computer in the Vintage Computer Exhibition. First, Second and Third place prizes will be awarded in 13 categories, including the coveted Best of Show. For complete details on the VCF 5.0 Exhibition, visit: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/exhibit.php BUY/SELL/TRADE AT THE VINTAGE COMPUTER MARKETPLACE Do you have some vintage computer items you'd like to sell? Whether you rent a booth or sell on consignment, the Vintage Computer Festival Marketplace is the premier venue for selling old computers and related items. If you would like to rent a booth or inquire about consignment rates, please send e-mail to for more information or visit: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/vendor.php TELL A FRIEND! TELL A FRIEND! TELL A FRIEND! We really hope to see you at the VCF 5.0! And remember, tell your friends!! A printable flyer in Word format can be downloaded here: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/vcf50.doc Vintage Computer Festival 5.0 September 15th and 16th, 2001 Parkside Hall - San Jose Convention Center San Jose, California http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/ Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 7 08:37:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > where did you know where to go look? I am flying accross the country > every now and then too, but I wouldn't know how to put those two > available hours to productive use finding such good stuff you found, > not in a foreign city. So, what's the secret in general, and does > anyone know of good places to shop in Salt Lake City, Utah, or in > Pasadena/Los Angeles, CA? The best way is to just open up a phone book and look for all the thrift stores in your area. It helps to have a base you can work out of (like an office) where you have an internet connection so you can quickly and easily pull up maps and directions. Plot a route to all the nearest stores and go hunting. You can also try looking up surplus electronics shops and maybe even scrap yards. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 09:46:55 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC References: <01Aug6.143044edt.119064@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B6FFF5F.3FE98A6D@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > on 8/6/01 1:47 PM, Eric Chomko at chomko@greenbelt.com wrote: > > How does this sound? > > IBM 5150 PC from NASA auction, with NASA stickers, custon NASA > > modificiations for enhanced coomunications. Complete with 20 MB hard drive > > loaded with original NASA files, and works! > > Sorry, you can't have it. :) > > Now that's cool....at the very least unusual > I'll drag it out next time your over. At the very least I should back up the hard drive... Eric > > Jeff From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 09:54:24 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: Message-ID: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the 68882?). Anyway the card is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made by a company called DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them (i.e. 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 486, etc.) Eric From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 10:00:35 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <200108071200.IAA17821@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3B700293.47DD3CE2@greenbelt.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... > > http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy > Very nice! Oh yeah, and the computers is cool, too.... ;) Eric > > Bryan > > > > > http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > > > > I just wish someone had a project like this that could be > > produced in quantity. > > From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 7 10:08:17 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Sparc2...FAILURE: No Trap Taken, Exp Trap Type - 00000009...Solved...simms in wrong banks...now more questions... In-Reply-To: <3B6FE85D.2A7A1AC@cfa.harvard.edu>; from ssouchek@cfa.harvard.edu on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 09:08:45AM -0400 References: <3B6FE85D.2A7A1AC@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20010807100817.E4384123@uiuc.edu> Steven Souchek said: > I have a question. I have a Sparc2, 64mb mem, 2x4gb barracuda's. I got > a hold of a sbus 10-100/scsi card and tried to install it. When it > comes up, no beep, no screen. I'm figuring that it's not compatable but > i would like to have someone tell me for sure. Is there anything I can > do? I've unhooked everything. No Joy. Please let me know. The 10/100 ethernet/SCSI sbus card is probably a Sun "Happy Meal" ethernet/SCSI board, which is only compatible with sun4m and newer machines... and your sparc2 is a sun4c. I've actually tried that same thing myself, and it definitly doesn't work :( > -- > Steven Souchek > Harvard-Smithsonian > Center for Astrophysics > 60 Garden Street > Cambridge MA 02138 > > (617)384-7568 - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Aug 7 10:16:16 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default>; from jrkeys@concentric.net on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:25:49AM -0500 References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> Message-ID: <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:25:49AM -0500, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I have tried > talking with a couple of them about the high prices but for some reason > they acted like the items belonged them and not free items given to > Goodwill. Do you not realize that Goodwill operates to make a *profit* ? Just because someone gives something to Goodwill for free doesent mean that they should turn around and give it away again. If someone gave you an IMSAI 8080 (bad example, I know) and you turned around and spent a day or so making sure it worked, would you then want to sell it for $25 a couple days later? (although the members of this list tend to be more open and "free" with their hardware than other groups I've seen; I dont think anyone is going to give away an IMSAI..) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From red at bears.org Tue Aug 7 10:21:33 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it > the 68882?). Anyway the card is a complete single board computer that > plugs into your AT system. It is made by a company called DSI and came > with C and FORTRAN, I believe. I'd really like one of those Microway i860 multi-processor EISA cards I used to see advertised all the time in the PC rags. Probably the two most interesting ISA cards I own are an Iterated Systems fractal compression accelerator, and a 3-board, 2-slot graphics card by Matrox which I haven't identified yet. Interesting to note that even beyond these two cards, that my most interesting ISA or EISA boards are the least useful and the biggest pains-in-the-bottom. For example, I lusted in my heart for years after a SuperMac Spectrum/24 card. I finally got one in EISA flavour in 1996. Imagine my disappointment that it 1) required a VGA card already installed in the system, 2) was supported ONLY in Windows 3.1, and 3) was generally slower than the Compaq QVision 1280/E I already had. > I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them > (i.e. 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 486, etc.) The old WD7000 cards used Z80s. The NE3200 has an 80186 on, and the old Mylex DCE376 caching SCSI card has an 80376sx (386sx for embedded systems), but they're both EISA. DPT SCSI cards also have historically used 680x0 CPUs---my PCI 2144UW has a 40 MHz 68040. I don't know if cards like this fall within your mandate. ok r. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Aug 7 10:24:42 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:54:24 -0400 Eric Chomko wrote: > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. My all-time favourite is the Wyse 700, a two-board sandwich of fast TTL and a 6545. It could do 1280x800 graphics (monochrome) way back in 1986 or so, which was great for the first generation of PC-based Desk-Top Publishing programs like Ventura. I still have one, and the special monochrome CRT for it. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 7 10:47:25 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: what the hell. In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 12:20:55PM -0400 References: <20010806083919.E4169972@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20010807104725.D4367815@uiuc.edu> really? how big is it? I'd definitly be interested, but I don't have a ton of space in my apartment, so if it's too big I wouldn't have anywhere to put it... Master of all that Sucks said: > > I have a Gas Chromatograph designed for this thing that I might be > persuaded to let go. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > > > heh, I got mine out of the basement of one of the chemistry labs at U of > > I...it was destined for the scrap pile and I thought "hey, that looks too > > interesting to just throw out" and then later went and found out what it > > actually was :) now I just hope someone decides to throw out whatever > > experimental equipment they were controlling with the calculator...an old > > spectrometer or something would be pretty cool :) > > > > - Dan Wright > > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Aug 7 10:51:52 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) Message-ID: <106.3af4a1b.28a16898@aol.com> In a message dated 8/7/2001 10:09:42 AM Central Daylight Time, chomko@greenbelt.com writes: > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is > made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them (i.e. > 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 > 486, etc.) > > Eric > I've an IBM blank prototype board still in its box and somewhere else I've a ISA card that allows backups to be made to a VCR tape. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010807/7003219e/attachment.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 11:00:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/7/01 10:54 AM, Eric Chomko at chomko@greenbelt.com wrote: > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. I also have a similar card with a 68020 and 68881 for the ISA bus. I no longer recall who made it but it has what appears to be like 4meg of RAM and possibly a serial port on it. I've not docs or software for it either. Jeff From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 7 09:00:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Personal Computer World magazine: an 8080 puzzle and "Z80 is dead" In-Reply-To: <3B6F86FB.E00239C0@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <454.619T650T9004571optimus@canit.se> Paul Williams skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Thank you, Paul. Did you make those explanations yourself? They >> nearly made me think I understood Intel assembler. =) >No, they're straight from the magazine, from a time when I imagine many >hobbyists would be interested. Now I think assembler only interests >those of us who still have to count clock cycles for a living! By all means, no. You forget demo programmers. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Aug 7 11:12:37 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3B701373.F729B68@olf.com> Eric Chomko wrote: > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > My coolest ISA card has to be the custom built DTC card. DTC stands for DSP + Transputer Card. It contains everything plus the kitchen sink on one ISA card. The specs can be found at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/7677/. It contains a T425 transputer + Motorola DSP56002 + Xilinx FPGA+ two size-2 tram slots and IDE interface, and whole lot of other features as well. Really cool looking board as well... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 11:18:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > So, this Christine person... is she a hottie? Any relation to Sheryln Finn? > > How long have you two been an item? hehe. On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > I'll let Sellam answer most of the questions, but I have to say that the > name of the actress in "Twin Peaks" is Sherilyn FENN. We all know about stage names, and how actresses would try to distance themselves from relatives, particularly archaeologist twin sisters, etc. I think that Sellam's wife may be reading the list, so he will have to DENY EVERYTHING! If you run into him with his wife, please don't mention his "archaeologist colleague". From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 7 11:23:18 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3B7015F6.F975C62E@internet1.net> I had a pair of Trackstar cards that were each essentially an Apple ][ Plus on an ISA card. I couldn't figure out how to make them work, so I sold them on Ebay... I think. I would rather have had the later Trackstar card that was an Apple//e on a card, anyway. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Chomko wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them (i.e. > 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 > 486, etc.) > > Eric From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 7 11:24:27 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <200108071200.IAA17821@wordstock.com> <3B700293.47DD3CE2@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3B70163B.D02CB30F@internet1.net> Yeah that was my thought too :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Chomko wrote: > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy > > > > Very nice! > > Oh yeah, and the computers is cool, too.... ;) > > Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 7 11:31:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255C6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: [..snip..] > Probably the two most interesting ISA cards I own are an Iterated Systems > fractal compression accelerator, and a 3-board, 2-slot graphics card by > Matrox which I haven't identified yet. I had no idea that IFS ever did board-level products. Of course, it ticks me off no end that they don't have *any* end-user products anymore. I had an application that I believe would have benefited greatly from using their compression algorithm (storing scanned census microfilms on CD, which are now available from Broderbund). -dq From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 7 11:35:32 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it > the 68882?). Anyway the card is a complete single board computer that > plugs into your AT system. It is made by a company called DSI and came > with C and FORTRAN, I believe. I'll always hold in high esteem the 300 baud internal modem that let me discover 'the Internet' in ~1991. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From red at bears.org Tue Aug 7 11:39:52 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255C6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I had no idea that IFS ever did board-level products. Apparently, neither do they. (; My one major shot at finding somebody there who had some notion of their non-current products refused to give me any information about the board on the grounds that "any current PC is faster at fractal compression than this board". Fie to that. ok r. From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Aug 7 11:37:21 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> <3B7015F6.F975C62E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3B701940.7A0DCAFC@olf.com> Chad Fernandez wrote: > I had a pair of Trackstar cards that were each essentially an Apple ][ > Plus on an ISA card. I couldn't figure out how to make them work, so I > sold them on Ebay... I think. I would rather have had the later > Trackstar card that was an Apple//e on a card, anyway. > > A simple google search has revealed the following FAQ and location for the software for the Trackstar: http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/2/apple2/Faqs/R022TRKSTAR.htm Now that wasnt hard was it ;-) Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 7 11:46:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:07 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net> Bill Bradford wrote: > Do you not realize that Goodwill operates to make a *profit* ? > Just because someone gives something to Goodwill for free doesent > mean that they should turn around and give it away again. Bill, they make there profit my volume apparently. Most stuff (not limiting "stuff" to computers) is dirt cheap at the local GW. However, sometimes with computer stuff they'll mark it up very high. What happens is that the get a set of something, like a nice Lazer 128 or //Gs or whatever, but mark it up way high. Well no one buys it but everyone digs through it, scattering its pieces throughout the store. now, it's worth even less, then someone starts selling it piecemeal. The problem is that they don't have anybody that knows anything about computers, which doesn't surprise me.... part of there mission is to provide jobs for people that don't have good jobs.... often uneducated people (please don't think I am being judgmental or harsh, that isn't my intent). They don't know a good computer form a piece of junk el-cheapo clone 386. The Local Goodwill in town here, routinely has old dirty clone 386's out of the floor. I gave them a very clean IBM PS/2 Model 77 (486dx2-66), and I think they threw it away! The lady asked me if it worked.... I told her it needed a HD. I think she figured, Oh, I guess it's broken and tossed it, because I never saw it on the sales floor. They do ship stuff in between stores so it's possible it ended up somewhere else, but this Goodwill seems to handle the most computer stuff. > > If someone gave you an IMSAI 8080 (bad example, I know) and you > turned around and spent a day or so making sure it worked, would > you then want to sell it for $25 a couple days later? I don't know about your local region, but herem they don't fix anything. > (although the members of this list tend to be more open and "free" > with their hardware than other groups I've seen; I dont think anyone > is going to give away an IMSAI..) I have whole case, want one :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 7 10:54:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:25:49AM -0500, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > I have tried > > talking with a couple of them about the high prices but for some reason > > they acted like the items belonged them and not free items given to > > Goodwill. > > Do you not realize that Goodwill operates to make a *profit* ? > Just because someone gives something to Goodwill for free doesent > mean that they should turn around and give it away again. > > If someone gave you an IMSAI 8080 (bad example, I know) and you > turned around and spent a day or so making sure it worked, would > you then want to sell it for $25 a couple days later? Just because someone puts 4 hours @ $8.25/hr (or whatever they make) into a Commodore 64 does NOT mean that it is now worth at least $33 (plus markup). In my area (great San Francisco Bay/Silicon Valley area) Goodwill's and Salvation Army's tend to mark computers at silly prices. It's sort of taking advantage of the lower income folks who go into those stores looking for deals on used goods and walking away with a computer that's worth maybe 20% of what they paid for it. > (although the members of this list tend to be more open and "free" > with their hardware than other groups I've seen; I dont think anyone > is going to give away an IMSAI..) I did (VCF 2.0 :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 12:09:38 2001 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> <3B7015F6.F975C62E@internet1.net> <3B701940.7A0DCAFC@olf.com> Message-ID: Creative Labs 3DO-Blaster. 3DO Emulator board with it's own sound & video processors. Picked it up surplus for like $5. Haven't played with it yet, it's in the in-box :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I had a pair of Trackstar cards that were each essentially an Apple ][ > > Plus on an ISA card. I couldn't figure out how to make them work, so I > > sold them on Ebay... I think. I would rather have had the later > > Trackstar card that was an Apple//e on a card, anyway. > > > > > > A simple google search has revealed the following FAQ and location for > the software for the Trackstar: > > http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/2/apple2/Faqs/R022TRKSTAR.htm > > Now that wasnt hard was it ;-) > > Ram > > > -- > > ,,,, > /'^'\ > ( o o ) > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- > | Ram Meenakshisundaram | > | Senior Software Engineer | > | OpenLink Financial Inc | > | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | > | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ > > > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 7 12:10:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: I have an EISA card with four i860s on it. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them (i.e. > 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 > 486, etc.) > > Eric > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 7 12:18:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I'd really like one of those Microway i860 multi-processor EISA cards I > used to see advertised all the time in the PC rags. I have a couple. I don't know if it is the same card you are talking about, but I have a couple of different kinds of cards which are multiprocessor i860 on an EISA. > Probably the two most interesting ISA cards I own are an Iterated Systems > fractal compression accelerator, and a 3-board, 2-slot graphics card by > Matrox which I haven't identified yet. > > Interesting to note that even beyond these two cards, that my most > interesting ISA or EISA boards are the least useful and the biggest > pains-in-the-bottom. I've never had problems with EISA cards, but I've always been able to find the config disks. > > I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them > > (i.e. 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 486, etc.) > > The old WD7000 cards used Z80s. The NE3200 has an 80186 on, and the old > Mylex DCE376 caching SCSI card has an 80376sx (386sx for embedded > systems), but they're both EISA. DPT SCSI cards also have historically > used 680x0 CPUs---my PCI 2144UW has a 40 MHz 68040. I don't know if cards > like this fall within your mandate. Don't forget about the variety of coprocessed PCI cards out there. Like the Mylex DAC960 series, which uses two identical custom Mylex chipsets and an i960CF for two-channel coprocessed RAID, and the IBM ServeRAID. The ServeRAID II has three Adaptec AIC-7880 UW-SCSI chipsets and a PowerPC 403e @ 66? MHz for three-channel coprocessed RAID. Then there are all the SGI VME64 graphics cards, etc, many of which have interesting processors on them. Peace... Sridhar From red at bears.org Tue Aug 7 12:22:20 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > Interesting to note that even beyond these two cards, that my most > > interesting ISA or EISA boards are the least useful and the biggest > > pains-in-the-bottom. > > I've never had problems with EISA cards, but I've always been able to find > the config disks. That isn't really what I meant. I don't have trouble with them in that way; it's just that they never really end up being as useful as I might have liked. They always seem to have some confounding limitation. ok r. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 12:27:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> Message-ID: iOn Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Marvin wrote: > Has anyone heard of DOS being available for the S-100 platform? A friend of > mine is trying to gain access to an optical drive that was used on an S-100 > system and says that DOS 3.1 was the system. I have not heard of DOS being > used on S-100 systems, hence the question. Virtually every 8086 S-100 system ran either CP/M-86 or MS-DOS. Starting with Seattle Computer Products "Q-DOS" which later BECAME MS-DOS, 86-DOS, SB86-DOS? But, ... Because the architecture of the system is likely to NOT be the same as the IBM-PC, It will usually be MS-DOS, NOT PC-DOS, and will usually be early versions, that were less tied to the IBM PC architecture. The ones already mentioned are mostly v 1.00 2.11 is the most recent version that would be practical, unless the machine was explicitly intended to be an IBM clone. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 12:43:19 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Coolest? or weirdest? how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. Eiconscript. Laser printer controller (for CX mechanism) with postscript wannabe and laserjet emulation Cordata. Laser printer controller with proprietary formatting language and fonts. Software refuses to run on 286 and above. Jlaser. Laser printer controller. various models with "add-ons", including Canon IX12? scanner controller, serial, parallel, floppy controllers. Originally made for the sole purpose to be able to peddle large amounts of RAM. Co-processor "speedup" cards 8086 80186 80286 80386 ... Quadlink. Apple 2 on a card, without the reliability of the Trackstar (70% DOA rate, and even the replacement boards were untested) Apple Turnover. fits between floppy controller and drive for reading Apple disks on PC. POS from POS company. Coolest? extender card from Hurricane labs with lots of switches and LEDs to be able to intercept and monitor some of the bus signals. P.O.S.T cards. very useful when programming to be able to out to a port to display what's going on in a program with minimal disruption Are you going to be at VCF? I have to offload several more cubic yards of stuff, including ISA cards. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Aug 7 12:41:05 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: Message-ID: <3B702831.2AF673A2@olf.com> Master of all that Sucks wrote: > I have an EISA card with four i860s on it. > > Peace... Sridhar WOW! That is one board I always dreamed of having. All those PC Mag adds of the i860 Number Smasher had me dreaming for years. Consider yourself lucky. Willing to part with one.. ;-) The other i860 board I wanted was the Hauppauge 486 + i860 motherboard. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 13:03:38 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B702D7A.8759AF00@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > on 8/7/01 10:54 AM, Eric Chomko at chomko@greenbelt.com wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > > 68882?). Anyway the card > > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > > by a company called > > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > I also have a similar card with a 68020 and 68881 for the ISA bus. I no > longer recall who made it but it has what appears to be like 4meg of RAM and > possibly a serial port on it. I've not docs or software for it either. > Bring it over next time. If it IS the DSI card, then I'll be able to help you with it. Eric > > Jeff From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 7 13:11:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> <3B7015F6.F975C62E@internet1.net> <3B701940.7A0DCAFC@olf.com> Message-ID: <3B702F54.6DFF897F@internet1.net> At the time, I only had email and usenet access. I was using a 286 12 so graphical web access wasn't an option for me. I don't know how well Arachne would have worked, either. I don't think it was anywhere near as far along as it is now. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I had a pair of Trackstar cards that were each essentially an Apple ][ > > Plus on an ISA card. I couldn't figure out how to make them work, so I > > sold them on Ebay... I think. I would rather have had the later > > Trackstar card that was an Apple//e on a card, anyway. > > > > > > A simple google search has revealed the following FAQ and location for > the software for the Trackstar: > > http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/2/apple2/Faqs/R022TRKSTAR.htm > > Now that wasnt hard was it ;-) > > Ram > > -- > > ,,,, > /'^'\ > ( o o ) > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- > | Ram Meenakshisundaram | > | Senior Software Engineer | > | OpenLink Financial Inc | > | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | > | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Aug 7 13:20:22 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:11:29AM -0400 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010807112021.A28285@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:11:29AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > But K-Jetronic (CIS) isn't timed at all- every cylinder port is > getting fuel at all times. The fuel distributor controls how much > by the area of the slots exposed int he control plunger as it > moves up and down in response the the motions of the airflow sensor. For a moment I thought that paragraph was about computers (maybe the *other* CIS in another thread?). After all, computer designers have to deal with the same issues (synchronous or asynchronous?) as you describe here. So... have there been cycles in car designs as different tradeoffs become popular with the designers and then become unpopular? At least cars don't have wire-wrapped backplanes. I guess car wiring _is_ pretty hairy stuff, though. -- Derek From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 13:23:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01Aug7.143125edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/7/01 1:43 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) at cisin@xenosoft.com wrote: > P.O.S.T cards. very useful when programming to be able to out to a port > to display what's going on in a program with minimal disruption Yes, I've got a 16bit ISA card from AMI with 8-7 segment displays, 4 LED's, 6 toggle switches and a push button for the step pulse. It's just on topic with a date of 1990. Jeff From technos at nerdland.org Tue Aug 7 13:32:06 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) Message-ID: <01C11F4D.BC27C3B0.technos@nerdland.org> On Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:54 AM, Eric Chomko [SMTP:chomko@greenbelt.com] wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it > the > 68882?). Anyway the card > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It > is made > by a company called > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them > (i.e. > 80186, 68000, 68020, 386 > 486, etc.) > > Eric ISA? Hmm.. That would be my Vermont Microsystems CAD card. It's got a couple megs of memory, a Z80, and a 80186. Plus it was mostly hand built, with wire wrapping and hand soldering . From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Aug 7 13:46:34 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com>; from jss@subatomix.com on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 11:35:32AM -0500 References: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010807134633.B24717@mrbill.net> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 11:35:32AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I'll always hold in high esteem the 300 baud internal modem that let me > discover 'the Internet' in ~1991. Same here. For me it was a HP 110 "laptop" with internal 300 baud modem, dialed up to Tymnet's PC PURSUIT service. Shortly after that, an Atari 520STfm with a Hayes Smartmodem 300. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Aug 7 13:49:47 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net>; from fernande@internet1.net on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:46:19PM -0400 References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010807134947.C24717@mrbill.net> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:46:19PM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I don't know about your local region, but herem they don't fix anything. See http://www.goodwillcomputerworks.net. An entire GOodwill store, dedicated to fixing up and selling computers. Most of the "systems" they sell are PC clone or Macs, but they do have a good variety of "other" "as-is" stuff to rummage through (I saw some HP 9000/7xx workstations last time I was there, as well as NeXT, etc) and plenty of nifty bits (they had a PILE, at least 20, Proxim wireless ethernet access points a couple of months ago, for $20 each.. and I got a DECserver 90M complete less power supply for $5 last week..) Anything they dont put out on the floor is auctioned off twice a week. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Aug 7 13:50:41 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:54:48AM -0700 References: <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010807135040.D24717@mrbill.net> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:54:48AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Just because someone puts 4 hours @ $8.25/hr (or whatever they make) into > a Commodore 64 does NOT mean that it is now worth at least $33 (plus > markup). Okay, I agree, $33 is a bit much. I'd say $19.95 at most, for a complete system with power supplies and cables... > I did (VCF 2.0 :) Good for you. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 13:35:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> from "Eric Chomko" at Aug 7, 1 10:54:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010807/df25d8f9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 13:32:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Aug 7, 1 07:51:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1683 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010807/3994ff0f/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 7 14:03:56 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <3847.619T2100T915257optimus@canit.se> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010806102415.00aa4b90@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807145819.009d1640@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:31 AM 8/7/01 +0100, you wrote: >joe skrev: > > >At 02:10 AM 8/5/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: > >>Went to the junkyard with a mate today and found (well, stepped on) an ugly > >>HP something. It's a HP 9000 (Yay!) 226 (?h?), > > > aka 9826. It's a 8 MHz 68000 CPU baed system that runs HPL (HP's > >version of APL), BASIC or Pascal. Most of the OS were disk based but you > >could get them on plug in ROM cards. The really interesting thing about the > >OS is that you canhave multiple OSs (and muiltiple versions of the same > >one) on the same drive or even multiple drives and you can select the one > >that you want it to boot. Very nice for tinkering. All in all, it's not a > >bad machine. They're wided used as HP-IB instrument controllers. > >We were very impressed by the 68000 processor, both the fact that it used one >and the processor itself, since it's a bona-fide Motorola model, and an >expensive gold and ceramics one at that. Very pretty to look at, just like the >ROMs. And all those gold circuit board traces. HP doesn't do things by halfs! > >>which is a clumsy box with a small > >>CRT and a 5?" floppy as well as an integrated keyboard. This unit had been > >>retired from the telemonopoly (well, all the stickers date back to that > >>time), which ad apparently modified it into some kind of luggable > >>workstation by putting a biug brass handle which seems to have come off a > >>door on one side of the unit. > > > I wonder if the handle is original? There was an option for some kind > >of handle from HP but I've never seen one. > >As absurd as it seems, it may have been intended for certain portable >applications by design, what with the space for a battery pack in a >compartment in the bottom. The battery in the bottom is for a battery operated real time clock and for use in a controlled shut down in the event of a power lose. It won't run the computer for more than a few seconds. It's optional and it's sort of rare, I've only seen it in a couple of machines. FWIW it was only available in the 9826 (aka 9000 226) and 9836 (aka 9000 236) I think both of th em machines that I saw it in were 9836s. >OTOH, the handle and the small shock absorbing feet >both seem to come from a furniture shop, not a computer one. =) > > >>Apart from the handle, it has been equipped with an RS-232 interface > >>and additional memory cards, adding up to roughly 1,7 MB. > >>The unit powers up fine, the screen looks nice, but the keyboard has been > >>massacred, with five or six keys missing. > > > That's not a problem, the keys from most of 9000 200 series machi8nes > >will fit it. > >Oh, well, isn't that nice, I'll just go to the shop and buy some HP 9000/200 >keytops then. ;-) Do I detect a note of sarcasm here? Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 7 14:15:15 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections In-Reply-To: <20010807134633.B24717@mrbill.net> References: <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010807151515.00a6f6b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bill Bradford may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 11:35:32AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: >> I'll always hold in high esteem the 300 baud internal modem that let me >> discover 'the Internet' in ~1991. > >Same here. For me it was a HP 110 "laptop" with internal 300 baud >modem, dialed up to Tymnet's PC PURSUIT service. Shortly after that, >an Atari 520STfm with a Hayes Smartmodem 300. Holey-Moley - Y'all had the big toyz! ;-) I started with my CoCo2 & a 300baud Radio Shack mumble-modem - the gray matter is rusty, but it was their "lowest-end" & still cost around $150USD - I remember hand-dialing then hanging up just right after the CD while pushing the "connect" button on the modem... With practice, I could connect correctly 2 out of every 3 tries... ;-) Nowadays in this "Internet-Infested" world, if the modems are down for 5 minutes, I've got 100 angry customers calling... :-( ...And I was dialing 400 miles away (long distance out-of-state - was cheaper than the nearest dialup in-state which was still 150 miles distant) to Tymnet or Telenet to connect to compuserve in '86 or '87... Lemme tell ya - 32x16 green-screen is *not* fun to attempt telecommunications with... but if that's allz ya gotz... Aaahhh, the good 'ol days! ;-) [[ and I doubt I could do it anymore, but I could *whistle* the characters Q & R into the handset while the modem was connected... Needless to say, back then that "talent" still didn't attract the chicks! ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 7 14:08:13 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> References: <200108070013.RAA10396@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807150646.00aa04a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> If you mean MS-DOS then yes it was available for the Heathkit H-100 / Zenith Z-100. Joe At 09:07 PM 8/6/01 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone heard of DOS being available for the S-100 platform? A friend of >mine is trying to gain access to an optical drive that was used on an S-100 >system and says that DOS 3.1 was the system. I have not heard of DOS being >used on S-100 systems, hence the question. From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Aug 7 14:28:16 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: DEC VAX/PDP peripherals Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010807142607.02e20ce0@127.0.0.1> Hello, Is there a list of DEC peripherals (such as drives, printers, terminals) and their specs available? I keep running into people mentioning disk drives, tape drives, printers and such and have no reference to what these devices are, the interface, and what kind of capacity/speed these devices run at. Thanks! - Matt "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 7 14:22:14 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807151232.00aa9ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I have an ISA card made by HP that is called a "BASIC langauage processor card" or more commonly referred to as a "Viper" card. The card contains RAM, BASIC in ROM (optional), a 68000 CPU and a GPIB port. When you run the driver program on the PC, the card takes over the system and it behaves exactly like a HP 9836! Including the ability to operate HP-IB devices and use HP-IB disk drives, printers, plotters, etc. Most of the viper cards used a disk based language but you could get BASIC and Pascal in ROM form. I've only seen a few of these cards and they all ran BASIC but I'm told that you could get HPL, BASIC and Pascal. I've also been told that there was a "hyper-viper" card that used a 68010 or 68020 but I've never talked to anyone that's seen one. Joe At 10:54 AM 8/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the >68882?). Anyway the card >is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made >by a company called >DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > >I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them (i.e. >80186, 68000, 68020, 386 >486, etc.) > >Eric From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 14:35:19 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B7042F7.5BECEF1F@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > on 8/7/01 10:54 AM, Eric Chomko at chomko@greenbelt.com wrote: > > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > > 68882?). Anyway the card > > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > > by a company called > > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > I also have a similar card with a 68020 and 68881 for the ISA bus. I no > longer recall who made it but it has what appears to be like 4meg of RAM and > possibly a serial port on it. I've not docs or software for it either. > Check out the following link. It's a benchmark on the DSI board. http://www.spiess.ch/emme2/e2news/news02/node2.html And then of course there is this one: http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-04/0693.html http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-04/0292.html Hey, isn't that you, Jeff, asking about this very same board??? > > Jeff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 7 14:30:47 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: References: <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807152824.00ab7b30@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:27 AM 8/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >2.11 is the most recent version that would be practical, unless the >machine was explicitly intended to be an IBM clone. FWIW You could get MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.1(something) and 3.1 for the Zenith Z-100. There's also a guy out there that wrote a program to patch PC-DOS 4.0 to run on the Z-100. Joe >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 7 14:34:28 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: VCF East makes The Economist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010807141836.00c01f00@pc> At 05:51 PM 8/6/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Ok, this is getting childish (and I thought *I* was immature :) >Christine Finn is an archaeologist and a scholar devoting her time to the >study of change over time in computer development, among other things. >She is not a "hottie" in the sense you are using it. She's a professional >researcher, and we have a professional relationship. We are not, nor have >we ever been, an "item". We are colleagues and collaborators. She talks on poetry, like "Sex and 'Coagulated Sunlight': Butter in Literary Context" and "Rankness or Richness: Bog Butter as an Academic Resource" plus writing about Sellam in Archaeology magazine - she sounds like quite a character. And two dozen lunches and dinners? I've had entire relationships that didn't last that long. :-) Maybe you can sell a few autographed copies of the book when it comes out. At 09:18 AM 8/7/01 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >I think that Sellam's wife may be reading the list, so he will have to >DENY EVERYTHING! If you run into him with his wife, please don't mention >his "archaeologist colleague". Sellam has a wife? When I read this, the first thought that flashed through my mind was "What do lawyers use for contraception? Their personalities." But that's only because my wife is a lawyer. :-) - John http://www.ipcc.ie/infobogbutter.html From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Aug 7 14:39:36 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's right. For each part, there will come a time when there are no > > > more original, functioning instances. Our ability to continue the > > > tradition will then lie in our ability to put something else in their > > > place. > > > > Right, Jeff. > > > > And this was a conversation I meant to finish with Tony Duell. I made > > a remark about the speed I was seeing in a particular simulator of old > > iron as run on a 233MHz Pentium-1 PC. Tony remarked that he didn't have > > a machine of the host class (the Pentium-1 PC), so the simulator was > > therefore not available to him, but that it didn't matter much to him > > because he prefers the *real* original iron anyway. > > FWIW, FPGA-based re-implementations of classic computers don't satisfy my > interests either. For 2 main rasons : > > 1) I don't have any machine (read : lusedoze box) that will run the > development tools, so I can't get in there and 'tinker' You dont need too much though, free web accessable tools are available from Xilinx (webfitter) and probably others, > > 2) You can't clip a logic analyser onto the internal signals of an > FPGA... Remember I think of computers in terms of gates and flip-flops... Sure you can, its easy to build the logic probe into the FPGA and access it through some free I/O pins... > > I am not at all convinced that there will be a time when it will be > impossible to keep something like a PDP11 running, either. All the chips > in something like an 11/10 or 11/45 are documented. You could, if you had > to, re-implement a single chip in an FPGA. Sure it would be a waste of > FPGA, but if the time came when you couldn't get (say) a 74S181, and you > needed one, that would be a way of keeping the machine operational. > > [...] > > > Now, the FPGA route is even better than a simulator, of course, because > > As I menitoned above, to me they're much the same in that they don't > provide what I am interested in... > > -tony > > Peter Wallace From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 14:50:09 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections References: <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> <20010807112755.D38229-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3.0.1.32.20010807151515.00a6f6b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3B704671.50CDC055@greenbelt.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Bill Bradford may have mentioned these words: > >On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 11:35:32AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > >> I'll always hold in high esteem the 300 baud internal modem that let me > >> discover 'the Internet' in ~1991. > > > >Same here. For me it was a HP 110 "laptop" with internal 300 baud > >modem, dialed up to Tymnet's PC PURSUIT service. Shortly after that, > >an Atari 520STfm with a Hayes Smartmodem 300. > For me, I had a homebrew modem board that was sold through the computer store I worked at in college. The board was Bell 102 (?) compatible, that I put into case from Radio Shack, added a RJ-11 phone jack (w/transformer), and pulled the power off my SWTPC SS-50 bus. Man, that little modem saved my butt during crunch time in computer class, as I was able to dial-up at home. That was quite the luxury for 1979!!! I used in on the internet back in the mid-80s when I had a 'CompuServe' account. I remember buying an accoustic coupler at about that time from a local surplus store and never used it, as my homebrew modem was better since I could plug the RJ-11 connecter from the phone into my modem. I had, essentially, the "CAT" modem popular with Apples at the time on my SWTPC, via a homebrew application Granted I was only doing 110 baud, but that was due to my using an ASR-33 at the time. I will have to dig out that modem and photograh it for all to see. It truely was a fun and very useful addition to my computer system. Eric > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 7 14:24:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net> References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >Bill, they make there profit my volume apparently. Most stuff (not >limiting "stuff" to computers) is dirt cheap at the local GW. However, Goodwill is both retail and wholesale, with goods going about 50/50 to each operation. Almost all of the smaller thrift shops without a donation stream of their own buy from Goodwill in bulk. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 7 13:45:39 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: I also hit the phone book yellow pages immediately in new towns, but also I try to use Yahoo yellow pages at home before I leave so I can print out some lists of places. Thift stores and pawn shops are so unpredictable, and often pricey, so they are not the first place I look. USED computer dealers, computer recyclers, now that can be some good stuff. Scrap buyers, same thing. Hamfests, ie in Los Angeles on the last Saturday of the month there is a big one at TRW. Visit the local members of this list. NOBODY that has visited me so far has left empty handed, and my garage has a better selection than most stores of any kind. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 7 13:48:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B700120.3D0F72EE@greenbelt.com> References: Message-ID: I have some cards with i960 cpu, various 2900 and 29000. Did anybody ever get any of those IBM 360 emulation cards? (two card set I think) From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 14:56:25 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net> <20010807134947.C24717@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B7047E9.899B42EA@greenbelt.com> Bill Bradford wrote: > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:46:19PM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I don't know about your local region, but herem they don't fix anything. > > See http://www.goodwillcomputerworks.net. > Wow, complete with museum! > > An entire GOodwill store, dedicated to fixing up and selling computers. > Most of the "systems" they sell are PC clone or Macs, but they do have > a good variety of "other" "as-is" stuff to rummage through (I saw some > HP 9000/7xx workstations last time I was there, as well as NeXT, etc) > and plenty of nifty bits (they had a PILE, at least 20, Proxim wireless > ethernet access points a couple of months ago, for $20 each.. and I got > a DECserver 90M complete less power supply for $5 last week..) > > Anything they dont put out on the floor is auctioned off twice a week. > AH-HA! Now, I know where all the computer stuff went that I DIDN"T see in Plano, TX last month!!!!! I went the the Goodwill in Plano in early July and there was virtually no computer stuff. I take that they ship it all to Austin? Eric > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 15:00:10 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807151232.00aa9ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3B7048CA.BACE3AB8@greenbelt.com> joe wrote: > I have an ISA card made by HP that is called a "BASIC langauage > processor card" or more commonly referred to as a "Viper" card. The card > contains RAM, BASIC in ROM (optional), a 68000 CPU and a GPIB port. When > you run the driver program on the PC, the card takes over the system and it > behaves exactly like a HP 9836! Including the ability to operate HP-IB > devices and use HP-IB disk drives, printers, plotters, etc. Most of the > viper cards used a disk based language but you could get BASIC and Pascal > in ROM form. I've only seen a few of these cards and they all ran BASIC but > I'm told that you could get HPL, BASIC and Pascal. I've also been told > that there was a "hyper-viper" card that used a 68010 or 68020 but I've > never talked to anyone that's seen one. > Real cool! I'll keep my eyes open for that one... Eric > > Joe > > At 10:54 AM 8/7/01 -0400, you wrote: > > >I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > >68882?). Anyway the card > >is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It is made > >by a company called > >DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > > >I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them (i.e. > >80186, 68000, 68020, 386 > >486, etc.) > > > >Eric From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 7 15:08:16 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) References: Message-ID: <3B704AB0.90D5C09F@greenbelt.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Coolest? or weirdest? Coolest, weirdest, silly, interesting...take your pick. All work! > > how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half > length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a > pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. > > Eiconscript. Laser printer controller (for CX mechanism) with postscript > wannabe and laserjet emulation > Cordata. Laser printer controller with proprietary formatting language > and fonts. Software refuses to run on 286 and above. > Jlaser. Laser printer controller. various models with "add-ons", > including Canon IX12? scanner controller, serial, parallel, floppy > controllers. Originally made for the sole purpose to be able to peddle > large amounts of RAM. > > Co-processor "speedup" cards > 8086 > 80186 > 80286 > 80386 > ... > > Quadlink. Apple 2 on a card, without the reliability of the Trackstar > (70% DOA rate, and even the replacement boards were untested) > > Apple Turnover. fits between floppy controller and drive for reading > Apple disks on PC. POS from POS company. > > Coolest? > extender card from Hurricane labs with lots of switches and LEDs to be > able to intercept and monitor some of the bus signals. > > P.O.S.T cards. very useful when programming to be able to out to a port > to display what's going on in a program with minimal disruption > Yes, I have a POST card that I still use, or did about 3 months ago. > > Are you going to be at VCF? > I have to offload several more cubic yards of stuff, including ISA cards. > Oh, no ya don't! I have several cubic yards myself. Worked in a computer store awhile back during the ISA to PCI switchover and pick up their decde long leftovers of ISA. I know how it goes. "You can have this group, but you must take it all!" No cherrypicking!" Sound familar? I want to cherrypick.... Eric > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 15:10:36 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807152824.00ab7b30@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, joe wrote: > FWIW You could get MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.1(something) and 3.1 for > the Zenith Z-100. There's also a guy out there that wrote a program to > patch PC-DOS 4.0 to run on the Z-100. Is there a 3.31 available for it? MS-DOS 1.25 is basically the same as PC-DOS 1.10 MS-DOS 2.11 is similar to PC-DOS 2.10, but is the most commonly customized for alternate hardware version. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 7 15:14:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought the first officially supported Mainframe on a card was that P/370 (an S/370 on a card -- it's not an emulator... it's an actual mainframe). I have a couple of P/390s myself. Beautiful system, if you can afford it. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > I have some cards with i960 cpu, various 2900 and 29000. > > Did anybody ever get any of those IBM 360 emulation cards? (two card set I > think) > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 7 15:48:45 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B704AB0.90D5C09F@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: > > how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half > > length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a > > pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. > > That sounds a LOT like the Periscope debugger board. Is it? g. From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 15:43:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B702D7A.8759AF00@greenbelt.com> References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B702D7A.8759AF00@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: >Jeff Hellige wrote: > >> on 8/7/01 10:54 AM, Eric Chomko at chomko@greenbelt.com wrote: >> > I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the >> > 68882?). Anyway the card >> > is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT >>system. It is made >> > by a company called >> > DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. >> >> I also have a similar card with a 68020 and 68881 for the ISA bus. I no >> longer recall who made it but it has what appears to be like 4meg of RAM and >> possibly a serial port on it. I've not docs or software for it either. >> > >Bring it over next time. If it IS the DSI card, then I'll be able to >help you with >it. Eric, I just pulled mine out and it's a DSI-780 and it has a QA sticker on the back dated 3/3/87. Mine has a 16mhz 68020 and a 16mhz 68881, though there's still another socket that looks like it may be for another 68020? The 68882 wasn't the exact same size as the 68020 was it? There are also 16 SIMM's, soldered directly to the board, each with 9 41256-12 chips. That's what leads me to believe that it is a total of 4meg of RAM. I believe I asked about this board a few years ago when this list was first getting started. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 15:52:35 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B7042F7.5BECEF1F@greenbelt.com> References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B7042F7.5BECEF1F@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: >Check out the following link. It's a benchmark on the DSI board. > >http://www.spiess.ch/emme2/e2news/news02/node2.html That's pretty cool. The first real application I've seen for the board since I've gotten it. >And then of course there is this one: > >http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-04/0693.html >http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-04/0292.html > >Hey, isn't that you, Jeff, asking about this very same board??? Yep...that's me in 1997 being answered by Tony concerning the board. I thought I had posted a question concerning it on here once before. When I posted the note earlier today about it, I was at work and didn't have the board with me. As you've likely aready seen from my followup though, it is a similar board to the one you have. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 15:56:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807152824.00ab7b30@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3B6F6972.91316904@rain.org> <5.1.0.14.1.20010807152824.00ab7b30@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > FWIW You could get MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.1(something) and >3.1 for the Zenith Z-100. There's also a guy out there that wrote a >program to patch PC-DOS 4.0 to run on the Z-100. I've run the standard PC-DOS versions of 1.1 and 2.0 on a Z-100 that was modified for better compatibility but I also have 1.25 and 2.0 for the Z-100 series here. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 7 12:28:45 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <570.619T2250T11085611optimus@canit.se> r. 'bear' stricklin skrev: >DPT SCSI cards also have historically used 680x0 CPUs---my PCI 2144UW has a >40 MHz 68040. I don't know if cards like this fall within your mandate. That's not fair! My CPU is only a 25 MHz '040, and you say that there are faster SCSI cards!? I think my coolest ISA card is a hybrid DCA token ring node. On one edge of the card, there's an ISA edge, on the opposite side, there's an MCA one. Then a daughter board with the blanking plate and connectors is moved to either side depending on which bus you like. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 16:52:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <570.619T2250T11085611optimus@canit.se> References: <570.619T2250T11085611optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >DPT SCSI cards also have historically used 680x0 CPUs---my PCI 2144UW has a >>40 MHz 68040. I don't know if cards like this fall within your mandate. > >That's not fair! My CPU is only a 25 MHz '040, and you say that there are >faster SCSI cards!? I used to feel the same way when I was running a TRS-80 Model 2000 and I'd see caching SCSI controllers that used the same 80186 as a coprocessor on the board. There's something humbling about seeing your main CPU relegated to coprocessor status! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Aug 7 16:53:22 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures Message-ID: I believe that >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" said >Always power down while the machine is in the dishwasher. I thought it was difficult to get the dishwasher door to seal with a power cord blocking the locking mechanism. :) Mike From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Tue Aug 7 17:05:48 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember reading about the 3DO Blaster when it first came out, it seemed like a really cool way to expand their platform, and get better gaming on the 486's of the day. IIRC, it only worked with one kind of Creative CDROM drive, though, probably one of the proprietary ones; it probably won't do much without that. -Rob On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Jason McBrien wrote: > Creative Labs 3DO-Blaster. 3DO Emulator board with it's own sound & video > processors. Picked it up surplus for like $5. Haven't played with it yet, > it's in the in-box :) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:37 PM > Subject: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) > > > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > I had a pair of Trackstar cards that were each essentially an Apple ][ > > > Plus on an ISA card. I couldn't figure out how to make them work, so I > > > sold them on Ebay... I think. I would rather have had the later > > > Trackstar card that was an Apple//e on a card, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > A simple google search has revealed the following FAQ and location for > > the software for the Trackstar: > > > > http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/2/apple2/Faqs/R022TRKSTAR.htm > > > > Now that wasnt hard was it ;-) > > > > Ram > > > > > > -- > > > > ,,,, > > /'^'\ > > ( o o ) > > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- > > | Ram Meenakshisundaram | > > | Senior Software Engineer | > > | OpenLink Financial Inc | > > | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | > > | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | > > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > > \_) ) / > > (_/ > > > > > > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 7 17:14:43 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010807145558.01d42180@209.185.79.193> At 07:32 PM 8/7/01 +0100, Tony wrote: >FWIW, FPGA-based re-implementations of classic computers don't satisfy my >interests either. For 2 main rasons : > >1) I don't have any machine (read : lusedoze box) that will run the >development tools, so I can't get in there and 'tinker' You assume too much Tony. The tools run on UNIX systems as well as Windows machines. If you read the page on the PDP-8/X you will note that the author wrote _his own_ tools and those of course you could run under RSX-11M. Further it would be possible to port them to Fortran but that might be too painful. >2) You can't clip a logic analyser onto the internal signals of an >FPGA... Remember I think of computers in terms of gates and flip-flops... Actually this isn't quite true either. Especially with respect to the Xilinx RAM based FPGAs. Those nets on your schematic can be "bound out" to any spare I/O pin. Generally I/O isn't a killer if you're using a BGA package. >I am not at all convinced that there will be a time when it will be >impossible to keep something like a PDP11 running, either. All the chips >in something like an 11/10 or 11/45 are documented. You could, if you had >to, re-implement a single chip in an FPGA. Sure it would be a waste of >FPGA, but if the time came when you couldn't get (say) a 74S181, and you >needed one, that would be a way of keeping the machine operational. There is the concern however that the only FPGAs you could get would run at 3.3V or worse 1.8V. The smallest one would probably be a 36pin SOIC package that you would have to dig out your old microscope to solder on to an adapter board of some type. I've suggested for a while that the Xilinx folks should take their 9500 CPLD series, put it into 14, 16, 18, and 22 pin packages, surround the die with 74S TTL compatible i/os and then have a machine that allowed you to type in the TTL part you wanted and push the button. And "poof" you'd get one of those. They don't think there would be enough of a market to justify the tooling costs. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 7 17:20:42 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: References: <570.619T2250T11085611optimus@canit.se> <570.619T2250T11085611optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010807151949.01d49eb0@209.185.79.193> What's more fun is having the SCSI card serving a disk for you 4Mhz Z80 system. Now you have the "superior" 16 bit CPU of fetching disk blocks for the "inferior" 8 bit CPU :-) At 05:52 PM 8/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >> I used to feel the same way when I was running a TRS-80 Model >> 2000 and I'd see caching SCSI controllers that used the same 80186 as a >> coprocessor on the board. There's something humbling about seeing your >> main CPU relegated to coprocessor status! > > Jeff From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 17:45:19 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:08 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half > > > length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a > > > pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. > That sounds a LOT like the Periscope debugger board. Is it? NO! Periscope (by Brett Salter) had several different versions, ranging from little clips to go into an ISA slot alongside a board, to a full lenghth board with "write-protectable RAM" that the debugger could be loaded into. The IBM version COULD be used with the Persicope software, particularly if you were SO unable to solder as to not be able to put a pair of extra wires ont solder pads (such as on the floppy card). What made the IBM card "SPECIAL" was that it was an entire half length card with a single trace on each side running at an angle to the pushbutton. It was the closest to a BLANK card as was ever issued. REAL BLANK, without even any holes in it, NOT a prototype card. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 17:52:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I used to feel the same way when I was running a TRS-80 Model > 2000 and I'd see caching SCSI controllers that used the same 80186 as > a coprocessor on the board. There's something humbling about seeing > your main CPU relegated to coprocessor status! Remember when the Apple Laserwriter was more powerful than any of the computers that they sold to connect it to? From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 7 18:06:50 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <570.619T2250T11085611optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 7 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > That's not fair! My CPU is only a 25 MHz '040, and you say that there are > faster SCSI cards!? There are MUCH faster SCSI cards then that. I believe that the IBM ServeRAID 4L has two PowerPC 420s @ 133 MHz. Peace... Sridhar From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 7 17:50:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807145819.009d1640@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <2412.619T50T14303611optimus@canit.se> joe skrev: >>We were very impressed by the 68000 processor, both the fact that it used >>one and the processor itself, since it's a bona-fide Motorola model, and an >>expensive gold and ceramics one at that. Very pretty to look at, just like >>the ROMs. > And all those gold circuit board traces. HP doesn't do things by halfs! It's funny, but all other 68000 MPUs I've seen have been either Hitachi or "ST" (?) models. Or plastic PLCC models. >> >>which is a clumsy box with a small >> >>CRT and a 5?" floppy as well as an integrated keyboard. This unit had >> >>been retired from the telemonopoly (well, all the stickers date back to >> >>that time), which ad apparently modified it into some kind of luggable >> >>workstation by putting a biug brass handle which seems to have come off a >> >>door on one side of the unit. >> >> > I wonder if the handle is original? There was an option for some >> > kind >> >of handle from HP but I've never seen one. >> >>As absurd as it seems, it may have been intended for certain portable >>applications by design, what with the space for a battery pack in a >>compartment in the bottom. > The battery in the bottom is for a battery operated real time clock >and for use in a controlled shut down in the event of a power lose. It >won't run the computer for more than a few seconds. It's optional and it's >sort of rare, I've only seen it in a couple of machines. FWIW it was only >available in the 9826 (aka 9000 226) and 9836 (aka 9000 236) I think both >of th em machines that I saw it in were 9836s. The compartment is far too big to operate any non-atomic RTC. And it features a warning level about the high voltages. It measures something like 20?15?4 cm. >> >>Apart from the handle, it has been equipped with an RS-232 interface >> >>and additional memory cards, adding up to roughly 1,7 MB. >> >>The unit powers up fine, the screen looks nice, but the keyboard has been >> >>massacred, with five or six keys missing. >> >> > That's not a problem, the keys from most of 9000 200 series machi8nes >> >will fit it. >> >>Oh, well, isn't that nice, I'll just go to the shop and buy some HP 9000/200 >>keytops then. ;-) > Do I detect a note of sarcasm here? No, the smiley is just there for decoration purposes. ;-) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Alle Verallgemeinerungen sind gef?hrlich, sogar diese. --- Alexandre Dumas der ?ltere From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 7 18:39:30 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > > If someone gave you an IMSAI 8080 (bad example, I know) and you > turned around and spent a day or so making sure it worked, would > you then want to sell it for $25 a couple days later? > > (although the members of this list tend to be more open and "free" > with their hardware than other groups I've seen; I dont think anyone > is going to give away an IMSAI..) Bill's remarks reminded me of the following. IMSAI and Other S-100 Cards I have the following cards available, for sale preferably. Like others, I need to get rid of things, rather than just exchange one for another. Anyway, here is the list: 1 IMSAI MPU-B processor card w/ 8085 processor 1 IMSAI PDS II & DIO - 2 card set (Disk?) 1 additional DIO card 2 SEALS 8K Memory cards - 8 2102L chips missing 1 PTCO 2KRO PROM card - (Tested OK in 3/76) 1 Wizard PSIOB card 1 Wizard PSIO #2 card 2 Unknown 8085 processor cards - Apparently process control based on EPROMs Preference to someone taking all, but will separate. Best offer by 2000 PDT Tuesday 10 August. Shipping at cost. Shall we keep down clutter and respond off-list? - don From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 18:54:46 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Always power down while the machine is in the dishwasher. On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I thought it was difficult to get the dishwasher door to seal with a power > cord blocking the locking mechanism. :) Even slamming the door harder doesn't work. But Bill Pechter and Tony suggested using a watertight bulkhead fitting, and installing an outlet inside the dishwasher. But code requires a GFCI in "damp" locations. Those keep tripping in the dishwasher, so you have to tape down their reset button. BUt, ... If you use an 18 or 20 gauge extension cord, it's thin enough for the door to close, particularly if you use the two wire, not three wire kind (you can put an adapter on the inside end to plug your three wire plugs into the two wire extension cord). Since U.S. extension cords don't have fuses, you won't have to deal with those peskiy fuse blowing interruptions. If the cord is still too thick, take a knife and shave most of the insulation off. Then it'll fit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 19:00:08 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B704AB0.90D5C09F@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > Are you going to be at VCF? > > I have to offload several more cubic yards of stuff, including ISA cards. > Oh, no ya don't! I have several cubic yards myself. Worked in a computer > store awhile back during the ISA to PCI switchover and pick up their > decde long leftovers of ISA. > > I know how it goes. "You can have this group, but you must take it all!" > No cherrypicking!" > Sound familar? > I want to cherrypick.... No problem! For a modest additional fee, we'll even break up a set, for example: $1 for five, or $5 for one. The best packing material for junk^H^H^H^H classic computer hardware is MORE classic computer hardware. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 19:03:16 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd better cloarify that a little. The IBM Professional Debug Facility was similar to Periscope but wasn't Periscope. > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half > > > > length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a > > > > pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. > > That sounds a LOT like the Periscope debugger board. Is it? > > NO! > > Periscope (by Brett Salter) had several different versions, ranging from > little clips to go into an ISA slot alongside a board, to a full lenghth > board with "write-protectable RAM" that the debugger could be loaded into. > > The IBM version COULD be used with the Persicope software, particularly if > you were SO unable to solder as to not be able to put a pair of extra > wires ont solder pads (such as on the floppy card). > > What made the IBM card "SPECIAL" was that it was an entire half length > card with a single trace on each side running at an angle to the > pushbutton. It was the closest to a BLANK card as was ever issued. REAL > BLANK, without even any holes in it, NOT a prototype card. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Tue Aug 7 19:17:11 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking of almost-blank ISA cards, I have a really neat one here (in the Mountaingate RDR I was asking about a few weeks back). The ISA bus connections are limited only to power and ground lines, I think, though I couldn't actually get it to work outside the backplane it came in. It has a 40 pin IDE header on the other edge of the card, which plugs into an IDE controller. Then it takes those signals and the power from the bus and runs it all into a laptop-style 44 pin header, so you can mount a 2.5" drive right there on the card with its provided screwholes. I think it would be even cooler to combine a card like that with a really simple IDE controller, and have the whole setup and drive on one card there. -Rob On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half > > > > length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a > > > > pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. > > That sounds a LOT like the Periscope debugger board. Is it? > > NO! > > Periscope (by Brett Salter) had several different versions, ranging from > little clips to go into an ISA slot alongside a board, to a full lenghth > board with "write-protectable RAM" that the debugger could be loaded into. > > The IBM version COULD be used with the Persicope software, particularly if > you were SO unable to solder as to not be able to put a pair of extra > wires ont solder pads (such as on the floppy card). > > What made the IBM card "SPECIAL" was that it was an entire half length > card with a single trace on each side running at an angle to the > pushbutton. It was the closest to a BLANK card as was ever issued. REAL > BLANK, without even any holes in it, NOT a prototype card. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From ljcst18+ at pitt.edu Tue Aug 7 19:34:31 2001 From: ljcst18+ at pitt.edu (LUCAS J CASHDOLLAR) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) In-Reply-To: <3B7047E9.899B42EA@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: There is a goodwill in my town and the morons always try and sell computer stuff for ungodly prices. For instance I saw a CGA monitor there for $75. Wow these people need to get of the medication. Also (not computer related) I saw them selling clay pigeons for fifty cents a piece. crazed! luke On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Bill Bradford wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:46:19PM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I don't know about your local region, but herem they don't fix anything. > > > > See http://www.goodwillcomputerworks.net. > > > > Wow, complete with museum! > > > > > An entire GOodwill store, dedicated to fixing up and selling computers. > > Most of the "systems" they sell are PC clone or Macs, but they do have > > a good variety of "other" "as-is" stuff to rummage through (I saw some > > HP 9000/7xx workstations last time I was there, as well as NeXT, etc) > > and plenty of nifty bits (they had a PILE, at least 20, Proxim wireless > > ethernet access points a couple of months ago, for $20 each.. and I got > > a DECserver 90M complete less power supply for $5 last week..) > > > > Anything they dont put out on the floor is auctioned off twice a week. > > > > AH-HA! Now, I know where all the computer stuff went that I > DIDN"T see in Plano, TX last month!!!!! > > I went the the Goodwill in Plano in early July and there was virtually no > computer stuff. I take that they ship it all to Austin? > > Eric > > > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > Bill Bradford > > mrbill@mrbill.net > > Austin, TX > > From rdd at smart.net Tue Aug 7 20:08:59 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: cleaning qbus enclosures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > But Bill Pechter and Tony suggested using a watertight bulkhead fitting, [...] > BUt, ... > If you use an 18 or 20 gauge extension cord, it's thin enough for the door [...] > interruptions. If the cord is still too thick, take a knife and shave > most of the insulation off. Then it'll fit. Hmmm... good idea, however, that would then require the extra work of modifying one's fuse panel with a coin to prevent an open circuit if the cord was shaved a little too thin. Why not just avoid such inconveniences and put a small UPS inside the dishwasher? :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Aug 7 20:26:36 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) In-Reply-To: <3B7047E9.899B42EA@greenbelt.com>; from chomko@greenbelt.com on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 03:56:25PM -0400 References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net> <20010807134947.C24717@mrbill.net> <3B7047E9.899B42EA@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <20010807202636.F776@mrbill.net> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 03:56:25PM -0400, Eric Chomko wrote: > Wow, complete with museum! I offered them $1K cash for the incomplete Cray, and they turned me down. idiots. > I went the the Goodwill in Plano in early July and there was virtually no > computer stuff. I take that they ship it all to Austin? Those semi-trailers full of pallets and big boxes of stuff have to come from SOMEWHERE, I gather... but I cant count the number of times I've seen pallets and pallet-sized boxes of stuff SITTING OUT IN THE RAIN. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 7 19:43:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Thift stores and pawn shops are so unpredictable, and often pricey, so > they are not the first place I look. Why do you even bother with pawn shops? In my experience, they seem to sell stuff above retail of when the product was new! > Visit the local members of this list. NOBODY that has visited me so > far has left empty handed, and my garage has a better selection than > most stores of any kind. Great advice! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 7 21:13:21 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: <049a01c11ec9$449bb740$2f731fd1@default> <3B6F6CC6.1F475A4C@aurora.regenstrief.org> <007801c11f44$7aa2a080$13dab0d0@default> <20010807101616.K1898@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <002901c11faf$b805a4c0$45701fd1@default> Sorry my point here is that they will charge you $60 to $125 for a monitor with no guarantee and no return. They used to charge 10 to 20 dollars and you had 7 days to bring it back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradford" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Finds in Houston > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:25:49AM -0500, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > I have tried > > talking with a couple of them about the high prices but for some reason > > they acted like the items belonged them and not free items given to > > Goodwill. > > Do you not realize that Goodwill operates to make a *profit* ? > Just because someone gives something to Goodwill for free doesent > mean that they should turn around and give it away again. > > If someone gave you an IMSAI 8080 (bad example, I know) and you > turned around and spent a day or so making sure it worked, would > you then want to sell it for $25 a couple days later? > > (although the members of this list tend to be more open and "free" > with their hardware than other groups I've seen; I dont think anyone > is going to give away an IMSAI..) > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 7 20:07:09 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: One more Hayes unit to look out for Message-ID: Was it Gene that was all giddy with nearly completing his Hayes stack? Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but I just found this today: http://www.siconic.com/computers/Hayes%20Interbridge%201.JPG http://www.siconic.com/computers/Hayes%20Interbridge%202.JPG A Hayes Interbridge, in the so-called extruded aluminum (or as the wacky Brits pronounce it by adding a syllable, "aluminium" :) case, with the same form factor as the Chronograph and the Transet. It's apparently an Appletalk bridge, allowing you to locally connect two Appletalk networks or remotely over a modem. Start searching! (hee hee) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From claudew at videotron.ca Tue Aug 7 21:21:52 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) References: Message-ID: <00e901c11fb0$e356b460$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> > There is a goodwill in my town and the morons always try and sell computer > stuff for ungodly prices. For instance I saw a CGA monitor there for $75. We have the same here. I find that quite bad because they also sell clothes and other stuff to the poorer people that usually dont know anything about computers and they might think they are getting something usefull when they are not getting anything at all. Saw a 65 year old + with an old 386 the other day, for $30 (just the computer) he looked like he taught he was going on the internet with this... There is also another "non-profit" place where they have old XTs and 286s and bundle them with keyboard etc...and try to sell them for $75...But then again I think that place tries to hold on to stuff to justify the large building they occupy and their goverment backed operating budget... If they find someone to buy this, its not good because they are supposed to be doing GOOD things...even if they dont know how much its worth, its not an excuse for selling XTs at $75... The best finds now come from people telling people about me...I was given a lead on a KIM computer tonight by a friend I could probably get free... Then there is a giant used computer part place with Sun stuff and DEC stuff that could be a potential gold mine and owner is asking idiotic prices...I think he his one of those "I rather destroy it then sell it to you at that price" guys....and I am talking truly obsolete stuff here....nothing that can do any "serious" work...or even any collector value...Stuff piled to the roof...I am baffled... Oh well...My basement is kinda semi-full anyways.... Claude > Wow these people need to get of the medication. Also (not computer > related) I saw them selling clay pigeons for fifty cents a piece. crazed! > luke > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Bill Bradford wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:46:19PM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > I don't know about your local region, but herem they don't fix anything. > > > > > > See http://www.goodwillcomputerworks.net. > > > > > > > Wow, complete with museum! > > > > > > > > An entire GOodwill store, dedicated to fixing up and selling computers. > > > Most of the "systems" they sell are PC clone or Macs, but they do have > > > a good variety of "other" "as-is" stuff to rummage through (I saw some > > > HP 9000/7xx workstations last time I was there, as well as NeXT, etc) > > > and plenty of nifty bits (they had a PILE, at least 20, Proxim wireless > > > ethernet access points a couple of months ago, for $20 each.. and I got > > > a DECserver 90M complete less power supply for $5 last week..) > > > > > > Anything they dont put out on the floor is auctioned off twice a week. > > > > > > > AH-HA! Now, I know where all the computer stuff went that I > > DIDN"T see in Plano, TX last month!!!!! > > > > I went the the Goodwill in Plano in early July and there was virtually no > > computer stuff. I take that they ship it all to Austin? > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > -- > > > Bill Bradford > > > mrbill@mrbill.net > > > Austin, TX > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 7 21:37:16 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) In-Reply-To: Re: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) (Claude.W) References: <00e901c11fb0$e356b460$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: <15216.42460.736235.774061@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 7, Claude.W wrote: > Saw a 65 year old + with an old 386 the other day, for $30 (just the > computer) he looked like he taught he was going on the internet with > this... Hmm...he certainly could, but not in a way that a neophyte might consider to be "easy". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 7 22:17:22 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: DECServer again Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010807200047.01d7bda0@209.185.79.193> Ok, what vintage are these things? I got another one on Ebay (I know, I know) but I can really use the ports. Anyway, this one is the 16 port with only 1MB of RAM. I looked through the manuals on www.dnpg.com and there is no reference to how one might open up one of these and increase the ram to 2MB. Clues anyone? --Chuck From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 7 22:43:05 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? References: Message-ID: <005401c11fbc$3c1052e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Not properly an ISA card but I picked up a processor board from a Kendall Square Research supercomputer in an 'el cheapo' bin (mostly ISA cards) at the MIT Flea. John A. From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 7 22:47:22 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? Message-ID: <005e01c11fbc$d503e700$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Not properly an ISA card but I picked up a processor board from a Kendall Square Research supercomputer in an 'el cheapo' bin (mostly ISA cards) at the MIT Flea. ++++ Revision: The Burroughs/Unisys A-Series silicon emulator. An ISA card set and cool too. Meets all criteria. ++++ John A. From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 7 22:04:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <002901c11faf$b805a4c0$45701fd1@default> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Sorry my point here is that they will charge you $60 to $125 for a > monitor with no guarantee and no return. They used to charge 10 to 20 > dollars and you had 7 days to bring it back. I don't know if this has anything to do with their pricing, but monitors are becoming a huge toxic waste problem. The folks at the Alameda County Computer Resource Center (www.accrc.org) where the VCF collection is stored have started charging $10 for every monitor received as required by a new state law enacted earlier this year in an emergency session. The state of California is trying to work with them to ease the burden. It has to do with storage of toxic waste. Nobody wants monitors anymore...especially old or dead ones. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 7 23:15:21 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: DECServer again In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010807200047.01d7bda0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010807211354.01d8ac50@209.185.79.193> And I've managed to get WWENG1.SYS booted into this thing but it won't give me a prompt on port 0 (I get all the status messages up to "no TCP/IP address and SNMP isn't starting" and then nada, zip. Does the 1MB image have a command interpreter in it? If not do I have to use something else to configure it? Sorry for all the questions but the DNPG site is not useful in this regard. --Chuck From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 7 23:11:43 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) In-Reply-To: <15216.42460.736235.774061@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have zero problem going on a 386 running NetBSD + X (eek, slow). Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On August 7, Claude.W wrote: > > Saw a 65 year old + with an old 386 the other day, for $30 (just the > > computer) he looked like he taught he was going on the internet with > > this... > > Hmm...he certainly could, but not in a way that a neophyte might > consider to be "easy". > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 7 23:12:57 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: DECServer again In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 07, 2001 08:17:22 PM Message-ID: <200108080412.f784Cvu19092@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Ok, what vintage are these things? I got another one on Ebay (I know, I > know) but I can really use the ports. Anyway, this one is the 16 port with > only 1MB of RAM. I looked through the manuals on www.dnpg.com and there is > no reference to how one might open up one of these and increase the ram to > 2MB. Clues anyone? It may not be upgradeable. To open one up, depress the two latches on the bottom of the unit near the front edge and pop open the top. It isn't easy unless you have three or four hands. If there are SIMM slots the memory can be upgraded. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 7 23:14:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: HSZ40B Flash Card Message-ID: <200108080414.f784EZe19108@narnia.int.dittman.net> Does anyone have an HSZ40B controller? If so are you able to read and write the PCMCIA flash cards the controller uses? My HSZ40B flash card appears to be defective and I need to rewrite with a new one. If you can't read and write the flash cards, but have a spare, I can read and write them. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jtinker at coin.org Tue Aug 7 17:19:36 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010807145558.01d42180@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B706978.F50B77B0@coin.org> > At 07:32 PM 8/7/01 +0100, Tony wrote: > >I am not at all convinced that there will be a time when it will be > >impossible to keep something like a PDP11 running, either. All the chips > >in something like an 11/10 or 11/45 are documented. You could, if you had > >to, re-implement a single chip in an FPGA. Sure it would be a waste of > >FPGA, but if the time came when you couldn't get (say) a 74S181, and you > >needed one, that would be a way of keeping the machine operational. Scarcity is relative to how hard one looks for something. I think a guy named Simon wrote a thesis about this once. He was talking about natural resources, and I think sort of overmade his point, due to his ideological bias against environmentalism. But with regard to chips, there are bunches of them all over the place, and a diminishing demand for the ones people on this board would be looking for. They get harder to find, yes, but they are always still there, somewhere. Greek and Roman coins, for example, are relatively common. -- John Tinker From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 7 23:10:01 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Thift stores and pawn shops are so unpredictable, and often pricey, so >> they are not the first place I look. > >Why do you even bother with pawn shops? In my experience, they seem to >sell stuff above retail of when the product was new! Sometimes unpredictable is good. Sometimes the only place you can find is a pawnshop. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 7 23:13:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: One more Hayes unit to look out for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >A Hayes Interbridge, in the so-called extruded aluminum (or as the wacky >Brits pronounce it by adding a syllable, "aluminium" :) case, with the >same form factor as the Chronograph and the Transet. > >It's apparently an Appletalk bridge, allowing you to locally connect two >Appletalk networks or remotely over a modem. > >Start searching! (hee hee) These are THAT rare, I think I may even have one. I know I have seen them and not bothered. From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 7 23:29:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: DECServer again In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 07, 2001 09:15:21 PM Message-ID: <200108080429.f784TjC19171@narnia.int.dittman.net> > And I've managed to get WWENG1.SYS booted into this thing but it won't give > me a prompt on port 0 (I get all the status messages up to "no TCP/IP > address and SNMP isn't starting" and then nada, zip. It sounds like the unit is configured for either a different baud rate or port 0 is not configured for access. Try a different baud rate or port. Also, if you have a system connected to the network with LAT support, see if the unit is announcing itself. If it is, login via LAT. > Does the 1MB image have a command interpreter in it? If not do I have to > use something else to configure it? Sorry for all the questions but the > DNPG site is not useful in this regard. Yes. The biggest difference between WWENG1 and WWENG2 is TCP/IP (WWENG2 supports TCP/IP, WWENG1 doesn't). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 7 23:31:24 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <002901c11faf$b805a4c0$45701fd1@default> Message-ID: >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > >> Sorry my point here is that they will charge you $60 to $125 for a >> monitor with no guarantee and no return. They used to charge 10 to 20 >> dollars and you had 7 days to bring it back. > >I don't know if this has anything to do with their pricing, but monitors >are becoming a huge toxic waste problem. The folks at the Alameda County >Computer Resource Center (www.accrc.org) where the VCF collection is >stored have started charging $10 for every monitor received as required by >a new state law enacted earlier this year in an emergency session. The >state of California is trying to work with them to ease the burden. It >has to do with storage of toxic waste. > >Nobody wants monitors anymore...especially old or dead ones. Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. One of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice big ones either, but old 14" monitors. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 7 23:41:00 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: RAM (was Re: DECServer again In-Reply-To: <200108080412.f784Cvu19092@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010807213624.01d63be0@209.185.79.193> At 11:12 PM 8/7/01 -0500, Eric wrote: >It may not be upgradeable. To open one up, depress the two latches on the >bottom of the unit near the front edge and pop open the top. It isn't easy >unless you have three or four hands. If there are SIMM slots the memory >can be upgraded. Ok, it does have two SIMM slots. They look like standard SIMMs could be interesting. Are there specific requirements? The existing SIMM stick appears to be 256K x 36 (ie a simple 1MB true parity SIMM @ either 80 or 130ns) --Chuck From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 7 23:36:01 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? PC/370 ??? References: <005e01c11fbc$d503e700$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <171701c11fc3$af5a50a0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I don't unfortunately have one... but the IBM ISA card available for the XT allowed that lowly machine to pretend it was a 370 class mainframe....in the early 80's (I worked for a company that got all the latest IBM wonders...) PC/370 it was called if I remember correctly.... made with IBM re-microprogrammed 68K silicon.. Later more powerful (5-7 mips) versions came out for MC ad PCI named PC/390 after the ES series mainframes. Tthe lowly XT, with it's MFM 10 meg drive would IPL the real machine and act as a channel processor, DASD (disk), and 3278 I/O. In other words, what Intel chips were meant to do, and no more! That same company also had a beautiful real 68k based IBM Instruments Scientifc (unix) computer... too bad IBM opted for the Intel platform instead, punishing us forever to a world of 64k segments, crappy architecture, small medium, large and linear model compilers, Messy-DOS, Winblows and all it's breathern... when we might have have 68Ks and unix...It would have been a different world. Thanks IBM! Anyone have either an IBM Instruments Scientific Computer or PC/370 card ? Both are rare, while PC/390 systems come up on ebay sometimes... Heinz From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 7 23:37:10 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:11:08 -0500 . <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2F@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: In message <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B2F@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.co m>, "Messick, Gary" writes: >I believe GM used mostly 68K derived stuff, have no idea about Chrysler. I'm not sure how representative this is, but I do know at least one of Crysler's engine control modules is based on a combination of the 68HC12 and the 68HC16. >I have a friend that OEMs an after market engine controller to a major >aftermarket company. It turns out at least for him, in the beginning, it >was easier to figure out the inputs/output to the module, and tweak those >values, rather than replicating the functions of the entire controller. He >simply placed his module "in-between" the module and the engine, and he >could pretty much play at will with certain functions while letting the OEM >module handle things he didn't care about. That sounds familiar. I used to work for an aftermarket company that does it a couple of ways. One is to play a game with the signals externally and the other is to modify the tables within the factory unit. Brian L. Stuart From technos at nerdland.org Tue Aug 7 23:45:16 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston Message-ID: <01C11FA3.651352A0.technos@nerdland.org> I don't know about that. There are plenty of times I would have been as pleased as pie to have someone offer me a eight year old, half working display. Hell, I've paid three figures for Olivetti monitors with horrid burn-in, just soI could have the 'Fix workstation' item off of my mental checklist. The only thing I've learned from years in selling off-lease crap: "For everything that exists on earth, there is someone, somewhere, that will pay you to have it." Jim > > Nobody wants monitors anymore...especially old or dead ones. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org From jtinker at coin.org Tue Aug 7 17:49:20 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer References: Message-ID: <3B707070.F100C6E8@coin.org> My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the fixed head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After that, a Scelbi 8H, 1974. -- John Tinker From claudew at videotron.ca Wed Aug 8 00:18:24 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: <002901c11faf$b805a4c0$45701fd1@default> Message-ID: <007701c11fc9$8c6680e0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> > >Nobody wants monitors anymore...especially old or dead ones. > > Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. One > of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice > big ones either, but old 14" monitors. 3000 untested Apple monitors? Good lord....What for? Claude From dittman at dittman.net Wed Aug 8 00:19:24 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: RAM (was Re: DECServer again In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 07, 2001 09:41:00 PM Message-ID: <200108080519.f785JOY19469@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >It may not be upgradeable. To open one up, depress the two latches on the > >bottom of the unit near the front edge and pop open the top. It isn't easy > >unless you have three or four hands. If there are SIMM slots the memory > >can be upgraded. > > Ok, it does have two SIMM slots. They look like standard SIMMs could be > interesting. Are there specific requirements? The existing SIMM stick > appears to be 256K x 36 (ie a simple 1MB true parity SIMM @ either 80 or 130ns) I don't know the specified RAM, but I was able to upgrade one with a 1Mx36 SIMM I had sitting around. You'll need at least 4MB to use the WWENG2 image. Also, while the box is open take a look and see if it has the PCMCIA slot. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Wed Aug 8 00:22:17 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: DEC discussion board Message-ID: <200108080522.f785MHR19490@narnia.int.dittman.net> I've set up a discussion board for discussing DEC stuff. I think I've got it working right. The board can be found from a link on http://www.dittman.net/ (linked there so the longer URL doesn't have to be typed the first time). I've set up a basic list of categories and topics, but will add any that sound reasonable. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Wed Aug 8 00:24:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer In-Reply-To: from "John Tinker" at Aug 07, 2001 11:49:20 PM Message-ID: <200108080524.f785Oqi19523@narnia.int.dittman.net> > My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor > has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the fixed > head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After that, > a Scelbi 8H, 1974. I'd be interested in pictures of the Minuteman missile guidance computer, esp. ones of a hard drive that can take that kind of stress. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 00:43:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? PC/370 ??? In-Reply-To: <171701c11fc3$af5a50a0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > I don't unfortunately have one... but the IBM ISA card > available for the XT allowed that lowly machine to > pretend it was a 370 class mainframe....in the early 80's > (I worked for a company that got all the latest IBM wonders...) It didn't make a PC *pretend* it was an S/370, it used the PC's motherboard and I/O system as a backplane and accessory panel to an ACTUAL REAL S/390 processor board. > PC/370 it was called if I remember correctly.... Correction. P/370. > made with IBM re-microprogrammed 68K silicon.. > Later more powerful (5-7 mips) versions came out > for MC ad PCI named PC/390 after the ES series mainframes. The 68K just ran as a general purpose bus-I/O interface to the PC. The P/390 uses a proprietary chip that serves the same purpose. The P/370 ran at 0.8-1.3 (roughly) mainframe MIPS. This has nothing to do with the MIPS to which most people refer, because the mainframe MIPS is measured using VLIW instructions. The MCA and PCI P/390 run at 3.5-4 mainframe MIPS. The brand new P/390E, which incidentally is still being manufactured and lists for $15,000+ and is the basis for the Multiprise/3000, runs at 7-7.5 mainframe MIPS. Incidentally, the P/390 MCA, P/390 PCI, and P/390E can all be run alternately (and quicker) in an RS/6000 with that particular kind of slot. To rehash, the P/370 is an 8-bit XT-bus card that runs at 0.8 MIPS and has 32 MB main storage with no extended storage (mainframes divide main memory between main storage and extended storage, kind of like an Amiga, and call disk either minidisk -> temporary disk, or DASD -> main disk), the P/390 MCA is a 32-bit Microchannel card that runs at 3.5 MIPS with 32 MB main storage with a daughtercard connection for either a 32 MB or 96 MB daughtercard, which added that much additional main storage and no extended storage. The P/390 PCI is a 32-bit busmastering PCI card that runs at 3.5 MIPS, and has 128 MB main storage, can use PC (or RS/6000) memory as extended storage. The P/390E operates at 7 MIPS, has either 256 MB or 1 GB of main storage, and can also use PC or RS/6K memory as extended storage. > Tthe lowly XT, with it's MFM 10 meg drive would IPL the real > machine and act as a channel processor, DASD (disk), and 3278 I/O. > In other words, what Intel chips were meant to do, and no more! Not exactly. On the P/370, and the P/390 MCA, the DASD would be an external mainframe DASD box (containing large-platter HDDs on a 3380/3390 interface). The internal HDDs of the PC or RS/6000 would be used for minidisk (in addition to virtual minidisk on DASD). The P/390 PCI and P/390E can use PC and RS/6K disk as DASD, and can emulate a 3390 9-track tape drive using a SCSI DAT. > That same company also had a beautiful real 68k based > IBM Instruments Scientifc (unix) computer... too bad IBM opted > for the Intel platform instead, punishing us forever to > a world of 64k segments, crappy architecture, small > medium, large and linear model compilers, Messy-DOS, > Winblows and all it's breathern... when we might have > have 68Ks and unix...It would have been a different world. > Thanks IBM! No offense, but bullshit. IBM still makes UNIX workstations based on the POWER architecture even today. Before the POWER machines, it was the RT/PC based on the ROMP. The IBM IISC was largely an experimental CISC workstation exercise. Have you ever seen a POWER2SC or POWER3II or even an old POWER RS/6000 running (PowerPC RS/6Ks don't count, they're el-cheapo)? They're surprisingly fast. Everything is coprocessed. They were designed to do CAD, and they excel at it. CATIA was dreamt up and implemented on RT/PCs and RS/6000s. > Anyone have either an IBM Instruments Scientific Computer or PC/370 > card ? Both are rare, while PC/390 systems come up on ebay sometimes... P/370s are FAR from rare. It's just they are largely still being used in production environments. They are pure mainframe hardware. They never *ever* crash. If you don't need to replace one, you just don't. I have four P/390s running myself, along with an S/390 9672 G5. Peace... Sridhar > Heinz P.S. I am an IBM employee, working on low-level mainframe server technology manufacturing. Here's my sigfile from work. -- Sridhar Ayengar sayenga@us.ibm.com Tool Control Software Development Sridhar Ayengar/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS Interconnect Products (845)892-3496 IBM Corp. East Fishkill Facility, Hopewell Junction, NY From technos at nerdland.org Wed Aug 8 01:11:50 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer Message-ID: <01C11FAF.7CC752A0.technos@nerdland.org> On Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:25 AM, Eric Dittman [SMTP:dittman@dittman.net] wrote: > > My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor > > has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the > > fixed > > head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After > > that, > > a Scelbi 8H, 1974. > > I'd be interested in pictures of the Minuteman missile guidance > computer, esp. ones of a hard drive that can take that kind of > stress. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net So would I.. My great-uncle holds a patent on the gyro system used in them. On second thought, no. He'll launch into his usual tirade about how GD screwed him on his later patent on night vision systems.. Jim From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 8 03:20:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <007701c11fc9$8c6680e0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <002901c11faf$b805a4c0$45701fd1@default> Message-ID: >> Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. One >> of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice >> big ones either, but old 14" monitors. > >3000 untested Apple monitors? Good lord....What for? Apparently they ship them up to Canada to build houses out of. The CRT makes an incredible insulator, and spray on a bit of stucco and nobody knows whats underneath. Actually the two stories I have heard are that they are being reused, or some kind of special metal recovery is done. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 8 03:12:41 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <3B706978.F50B77B0@coin.org> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010807145558.01d42180@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: >harder to find, yes, but they are always still there, somewhere. Greek >and Roman coins, for example, are relatively common. Coins have value even to idiots, where old chips can reach a point where typical people will decide there value is less than storage cost and into the trash it goes. From hansp at aconit.org Wed Aug 8 04:04:55 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010807145558.01d42180@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B7100B7.AF6D9961@aconit.org> Mike Ford wrote: > >harder to find, yes, but they are always still there, somewhere. > >Greek and Roman coins, for example, are relatively common. > Coins have value even to idiots, where old chips can reach a point > where typical people will decide there value is less than storage > cost and into the trash it goes. But that does not destroy them, just more difficult to locate. -- HBP From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Aug 8 05:50:57 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer In-Reply-To: <01C11FAF.7CC752A0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: There was a Minuteman guidance computer for sale on ebay within the last 6 months...some guy from New England. Looked to be in very good shape, but he wanted >$20,000 for it. He used the angle of it's a relic of the cold war. Never got any bids. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 2:12 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: Whats you oldest computer On Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:25 AM, Eric Dittman [SMTP:dittman@dittman.net] wrote: > > My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor > > has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the > > fixed > > head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After > > that, > > a Scelbi 8H, 1974. > > I'd be interested in pictures of the Minuteman missile guidance > computer, esp. ones of a hard drive that can take that kind of > stress. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net So would I.. My great-uncle holds a patent on the gyro system used in them. On second thought, no. He'll launch into his usual tirade about how GD screwed him on his later patent on night vision systems.. Jim From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 8 07:14:21 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <2412.619T50T14303611optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 7 Aug 2001 23:50:1 +0100 Iggy Drougge wrote: > It's funny, but all other 68000 MPUs I've seen have been either Hitachi or > "ST" (?) models. Or plastic PLCC models. ST = SGS-Thomson Microelectronics: http://www.st.com The same French/Italian company that bought INMOS and the transputer. They now build the ST6 range of microcontrollers, and the CPU chip used in the Dreamcast, amongst many others. They also bought Mostek (not MOS Technologies), builder of the NVRAM chips used in Sun workstations as real-time clock chips. And now suffering from dead batteries. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 8 07:53:17 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Viper cards Re: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <3B7048CA.BACE3AB8@greenbelt.com> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807151232.00aa9ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085015.00abaa90@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:00 PM 8/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >joe wrote: > > > I have an ISA card made by HP that is called a "BASIC langauage > > processor card" or more commonly referred to as a "Viper" card. The card > > contains RAM, BASIC in ROM (optional), a 68000 CPU and a GPIB port. When > > you run the driver program on the PC, the card takes over the system and it > > behaves exactly like a HP 9836! Including the ability to operate HP-IB > > devices and use HP-IB disk drives, printers, plotters, etc. Most of the > > viper cards used a disk based language but you could get BASIC and Pascal > > in ROM form. I've only seen a few of these cards and they all ran BASIC but > > I'm told that you could get HPL, BASIC and Pascal. I've also been told > > that there was a "hyper-viper" card that used a 68010 or 68020 but I've > > never talked to anyone that's seen one. > > > >Real cool! I'll keep my eyes open for that one... FWIW I open and check EVERY HP PC-type computer that I find and look for those cards. Also I recently found a complete SW package for the viper card on E-bay. It was brand new and still sealed in plastic. I was the only bidder on it. That's the kind of thing that E-bay is good for! Joe Joe >Eric > > > > > > Joe > > > > At 10:54 AM 8/7/01 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >I have a 16 bit ISA card that is a Motorola 68020 with 68881 (or is it the > > >68882?). Anyway the card > > >is a complete single board computer that plugs into your AT system. It > is made > > >by a company called > > >DSI and came with C and FORTRAN, I believe. > > > > > >I actually collect ISA cards that have interesting processors on them > (i.e. > > >80186, 68000, 68020, 386 > > >486, etc.) > > > > > >Eric From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 8 07:56:31 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807152824.00ab7b30@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085400.00abc1c0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:10 PM 8/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, joe wrote: > > FWIW You could get MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.1(something) and 3.1 for > > the Zenith Z-100. There's also a guy out there that wrote a program to > > patch PC-DOS 4.0 to run on the Z-100. > >Is there a 3.31 available for it? Not that I know of. MS-DOS 3.1 was the highest version that Zenith released for it. The PC-DOs 4 is a private effort by John Beyers . Joe >MS-DOS 1.25 is basically the same as PC-DOS 1.10 >MS-DOS 2.11 is similar to PC-DOS 2.10, but is the most commonly customized >for alternate hardware version. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 8 08:15:11 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". OK. How many of you live within driving distance of central Florida? Steve and I want to have a junk fest and clear out some of our unused junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, hidden treasures. Steve suggested that we have it on Sept 8th. Interested? Joe >See ya, SteveRob X-Originating-IP: [63.68.245.221] From: "Steve Robertson" To: rigdonj@intellistar.net Bcc: Subject: Re: Hey Dude! Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:46:55 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2001 20:46:56.0050 (UTC) FILETIME=[18828120:01C11F82] Joe, > Let me know what you're getting rid of. You may have something that I > can't live without! > Don't pitch the Kaypros. I gave away all the ones that I had but now > I've picked up a Kaypro 2 and I'm sort of attached to it. Do >you have > any docs or anything for them? Actually the KPs are pretty neat little boxes and I really didn't want to toss them. Just want to get some of them outta my way. I do have some of the original DOCs. Nothing technical though. Basic operators manuals, wordstar manuals, CPM manuals, Cbasic manuals, etc... I'll throw 'em in the truck when I come up. I've got some software here... Somewhere... It may take me a while to drag up it up. I'm sure if nothing else, Don Maslin or someone else on the CC list could provide a boot disk. Everything else can be downloaded from the CC archives. >Mike, Bob or Glen might want it, Bob and Glen are here in town. Hmm. I >was just thinking, we should try to get everyone together and >have a mini-swap meet. Besides you and me, Bob and Glen live here in town >and Mike lives in S. Georgia and Phil lives near Naples and I think >there's at least one other guy that lives near Tampa. I think that would be great. Maybe we could do it on Saturday Sept 8th. Everyone can throw their junk in their vehicles and we'll fight over it. Anything that doesn't get claimed, can live with you :-) > Can you tell me more about the 6800 box? > >Well... Put it this way... It's got Dual 8" floppies and total of 4K RAM. >The OS is just a "monitor" program. I also have a complete accounting >package with it but never really tried to make it do anything... It was >interfaced to antique DIABLO keyboard / printer. Let me tell you, this SOB >is primitive! It's probably worth something. I'm just tired of tripping >over it. > >I could also bring a couple of ATT UNIX boxes (wonder where they came >from) with all the docs, an ATT 6300, and some other stuff. > >Why don't you send out an invitation to the "Central Florida Computer Junk >Fest". > >See ya, SteveRob From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed Aug 8 08:37:17 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:09 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010807145558.01d42180@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B71408D.E0FF46DA@greenbelt.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >harder to find, yes, but they are always still there, somewhere. Greek > >and Roman coins, for example, are relatively common. > > Coins have value even to idiots, where old chips can reach a point where > typical people will decide there value is less than storage cost and into > the trash it goes. Yes, if I had a dollar for everytime I heard, "i used to have baseball cards, but my mom through them out when I went off to college", I'd be rich today!! Eric From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 8 08:31:57 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <2412.619T50T14303611optimus@canit.se> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010807145819.009d1640@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808093042.00ac1620@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:50 PM 8/7/01 +0100, you wrote: >joe skrev: > > >>We were very impressed by the 68000 processor, both the fact that it used > >>one and the processor itself, since it's a bona-fide Motorola model, and an > >>expensive gold and ceramics one at that. Very pretty to look at, just like > >>the ROMs. > > > And all those gold circuit board traces. HP doesn't do things by > halfs! > >It's funny, but all other 68000 MPUs I've seen have been either Hitachi or >"ST" (?) models. Or plastic PLCC models. > > >> >>which is a clumsy box with a small > >> >>CRT and a 5?" floppy as well as an integrated keyboard. This unit had > >> >>been retired from the telemonopoly (well, all the stickers date back to > >> >>that time), which ad apparently modified it into some kind of luggable > >> >>workstation by putting a biug brass handle which seems to have come > off a > >> >>door on one side of the unit. > >> > >> > I wonder if the handle is original? There was an option for some > >> > kind > >> >of handle from HP but I've never seen one. > >> > >>As absurd as it seems, it may have been intended for certain portable > >>applications by design, what with the space for a battery pack in a > >>compartment in the bottom. > > > The battery in the bottom is for a battery operated real time clock > >and for use in a controlled shut down in the event of a power lose. It > >won't run the computer for more than a few seconds. It's optional and it's > >sort of rare, I've only seen it in a couple of machines. FWIW it was only > >available in the 9826 (aka 9000 226) and 9836 (aka 9000 236) I think both > >of th em machines that I saw it in were 9836s. > >The compartment is far too big to operate any non-atomic RTC. And it features >a warning level about the high voltages. It measures something like 20?15?4 >cm. It may be oversize but that's what it's for! I have the docs for it somewhere. Joe From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Aug 8 07:26:39 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: building a PDP11 from the things you find at home In-Reply-To: <1355.609T2300T9385729optimus@canit.se> References: <200107280452.VAA29040@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010808082639.01f0015c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:38 PM 7/28/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >Personally, I think there's too much UNIX in OSX. They not only took the >kernel, but the entire environment as well. >Otherwise, (this wioll keep us within the ten-year rule), it reminds me of >MiNT/MultiTOS. Incompetent OS programmers who can't make a functioning, full- >featured system of their own just take a kernel off the rack and add some >glue. Granted, OSX is an entirely new system of its own whereas MiNT retained >TOS capability. But it's a tried and old concept. "He who doesn't comprehend UNIX is destined to redesign it poorly." Does anybody know the origin of this quote? Carlos (I'm way behind in my reading). -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 8 08:06:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. > One of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. > Not nice big ones either, but old 14" monitors. My question would be why? What is he planning to do with them? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ljcst18+ at pitt.edu Wed Aug 8 09:25:40 2001 From: ljcst18+ at pitt.edu (LUCAS J CASHDOLLAR) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer In-Reply-To: <3B707070.F100C6E8@coin.org> Message-ID: Wow, that guidance computer sounds really cool. Do you have any pics on the net? I got one word SAGE. THat would be an interesting computer to go see. LUke On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, John Tinker wrote: > My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor > has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the fixed > head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After that, > a Scelbi 8H, 1974. > > -- John Tinker > From ken at seefried.com Wed Aug 8 09:51:02 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <200108080546.AAA99587@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108080546.AAA99587@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010808145102.6363.qmail@mail.seefried.com> > Probably the two most interesting ISA cards I own are an Iterated > Systems fractal compression accelerator, Wow. Dr. Micheal Barnsley (the guy who came up with the technology that later became Iterated Systems) was my prof at GaTech when I took what I think was the first IFS class ever taught. I worked in his lab for a while. He started Iterated after I left. > The other i860 board I wanted was the Hauppauge > 486 + i860 motherboard. Oh, yeah. I lusted after this one at the time, right up until we started looking at how, um, baroque the i860 really was. Did anyone ever actually use one of these? A company called Opus made a number of ISA cards with interesting coprocessors. I used to have an Opus 32000 ISA card, a National Semi 32016 coprocessor. It unfortunately got tossed out by a careless girlfriend a decade ago (along with my unbuilt PC532 kit...sigh). I'm pretty sure that Opus continued this line up to the ns32332; I don't know if they ever made one out of the ns32532. I recall someone made an ISA board with a Fairchild Clipper on it, but the deatils have faded away. Ken From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 8 09:59:08 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <007201c1201a$aefa91e0$ac62d6d1@DOMAIN> > From Joe: > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if anyone wants some... ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From Mzthompson at aol.com Wed Aug 8 10:33:32 2001 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? Message-ID: I don't about cool, but I was tickled to get these cards. I got a box full of ISA Appletalk cards, complete with cables, driver disks, and manuals. When a former employer decided to dispense with the Apple LaserWriter II, I asked it I could have it and the associated cards, cables, etc. They said 'help yourself'. Took a couple after-work evenings just to pull all the cards from various machines and recover all the cables running through our department. Rummaging through our department's vault found the original boxes, manuals, disks, and even a couple complete kits still shrink wrapped. :)) Mike From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 8 10:36:48 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? Message-ID: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:51:02 GMT "Ken Seefried" writes: > A company called Opus made a number of ISA cards with interesting > coprocessors. I used to have an Opus 32000 ISA card, a National > Semi 32016 coprocessor. It unfortunately got tossed out by a careless > girlfriend a decade ago Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely *die* if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! There was another 32k coprocessor effort featured in the Micro Cornucopia in 1986. I *so* wanted one of these, but the project died on the vine . . . > (along with my unbuilt PC532 kit...sigh). AHHHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From bill at cs.scranton.edu Wed Aug 8 10:50:16 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010807151515.00a6f6b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Holey-Moley - Y'all had the big toyz! ;-) > > I started with my CoCo2 & a 300baud Radio Shack mumble-modem > > ...And I was dialing 400 miles away (long distance out-of-state I had a PortaCom-110 hardcopy terminal (larger than an IBM Selectric) with integrated accoustic coupler 110 baud modem. And I walked to school everyday in 6 feet of snow, uphill both ways!! :-) bill PS. I thought it was a giant leap in technology when I saw my first TI Silent 700. -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 8 11:06:47 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: One more Hayes unit to look out for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Was it Gene that was all giddy with nearly completing his Hayes stack? > > Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but I just found this today: > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Hayes%20Interbridge%201.JPG > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Hayes%20Interbridge%202.JPG > > A Hayes Interbridge, in the so-called extruded aluminum (or as the wacky > Brits pronounce it by adding a syllable, "aluminium" :) case, with the > same form factor as the Chronograph and the Transet. > > It's apparently an Appletalk bridge, allowing you to locally connect two > Appletalk networks or remotely over a modem. > > Start searching! (hee hee) You know, I really could've done without that. Really. *bangs head on desk* Ok, who owns it? Would they be interested in parting with it? :) g. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 10:58:23 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: Load 'em up. I've probably got a whole truckload of stuff looking for an new home and I don't expect to haul ANY of it home. Once I get it sorted out, I'll send a list of what's available. Let us know what kinda stuff your interested in and you might get lucky. I'm primarily interested in HP minicomputers, STD BUS systems, and Z80 development thingys. We haven't decided on a place or time yet. Obviously, we'd like to accomodate as many local collectors as possible. SteveRob >From: "Mike" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: >Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:59:08 -0400 > > > From Joe: > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > > >Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if >anyone wants some... > >;) >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 8 11:14:54 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: One more Hayes unit to look out for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >A Hayes Interbridge, in the so-called extruded aluminum (or as the wacky > >Brits pronounce it by adding a syllable, "aluminium" :) case, with the > >same form factor as the Chronograph and the Transet. > > > >It's apparently an Appletalk bridge, allowing you to locally connect two > >Appletalk networks or remotely over a modem. > > > >Start searching! (hee hee) > > These are THAT rare, I think I may even have one. I know I have seen them > and not bothered. > If you want to part with it, I'll give it a good home. g. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 8 11:17:02 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:36:48 -0500 Jeff L Kaneko wrote: > On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:51:02 GMT "Ken Seefried" > writes: > > A company called Opus made a number of ISA cards with interesting > > coprocessors. I used to have an Opus 32000 ISA card, a National > > Semi 32016 coprocessor. It unfortunately got tossed out by a careless > > girlfriend a decade ago > > Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely *die* > if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! I can assure you I'm not going to scrap my two NS32016s, inside two Whitechapel Workstations. I have a programming handbook for the 32000 series, too, as well as the Nat Semi data book. Which reminds me, anybody ever seen a 32000 second processor box for the BBC Micro? That's one I'd like for the collection (it's the used in all the examples in the above programming handbook). -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 8 11:33:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > One of my friends is a spammer, and what he does is setup a whole new > "persona" for each email blitz. Cost of doing business as far as he is > concerned. On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. One > of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice > big ones either, but old 14" monitors. You have unusual friends. Or one friend who is REALLY strange. Hmmmm. Why would a spammer want thousands of old monitors,. . . From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1612.monmouth.com Wed Aug 8 11:46:18 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1612.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from Jeff L Kaneko at "Aug 8, 2001 10:36:48 am" Message-ID: <200108081646.f78GkIA05464@bg-tc-ppp1612.monmouth.com> > > On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:51:02 GMT "Ken Seefried" > writes: > > A company called Opus made a number of ISA cards with interesting > > coprocessors. I used to have an Opus 32000 ISA card, a National > > Semi 32016 coprocessor. It unfortunately got tossed out by a careless > > girlfriend a decade ago > > Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely *die* > if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! > > There was another 32k coprocessor effort featured in the Micro Cornucopia > > in 1986. I *so* wanted one of these, but the project died on the vine . > . . > > > (along with my unbuilt PC532 kit...sigh). > > AHHHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I've got an Opus Personal Mainframe (Sun Sparcstation2 clone). Wonder if the same folks made it... They don't remember anything about the SS2 clone. -- Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 11:57:10 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: MCA systems Message-ID: 18Kg, thats nice and light... My CDC MMD 14" winchester drives weigh 67Kg apeice and I've physically carried those... I would bet the 6262 weighs about the same (or less) than my 3262 printers, which are 5 or 6 hundred pounds apeice... but the beast is definetly my 3880AE4, which weighs 1,500lbs... heh... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 8 11:50:17 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. >> One of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. >> Not nice big ones either, but old 14" monitors. > >My question would be why? What is he planning to do with them? Its weird what quantity does to value. With used computer stuff the more you have the more valuable some things get because you bypass some layer of middlemen. From jtinker at coin.org Wed Aug 8 11:59:23 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer References: <01C11FAF.7CC752A0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <3B711B8B.7CA1DFBD@coin.org> Jim Tuck wrote: > > On Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:25 AM, Eric Dittman > [SMTP:dittman@dittman.net] wrote: > > > My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor > > > has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the > > > fixed > > > head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After > > > that, > > > a Scelbi 8H, 1974. > > > > I'd be interested in pictures of the Minuteman missile guidance > > computer, esp. ones of a hard drive that can take that kind of > > stress. > > -- > > Eric Dittman > > dittman@dittman.net > > So would I.. My great-uncle holds a patent on the gyro system used in > them. Right now the computer is in Iowa, and I'm in Missouri. But I'll bring it back, next trip. The gyro "stabile platform" used classified technology and had been removed before the computers were surplussed out to universities. I'll have pictures, but it may be a month or so. -- John Tinker From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 8 12:07:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: OT: Need "Copy Exec" ... anybody hear of this? References: Message-ID: <001d01c1202c$982e3720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Years ago I participated in a beta test program of Seagate's, for a product that later became "Direct Tape Access," which is a program that allows you to have a tape drive masquerade as a disk drive under Windows. This worked fairly well, though it had some weaknesses. Later, after the BETA testing had been completed, and after the first release, of which I got a copy from Seagate, they released a version that included another utility, which I also BETA tested as "Gecko" (misspelled, but ... THEY spelled it like that.) but which was incorporated in DTA as "Copy Exec," which enabled Drag-n-Drop from one part of the system tree to another. Does anybody have a copy of that that they'd care to share? It's no longer available from Seagate or from Veritas, which got all the Seagate Backup software when it was spun off. thanks, Dick From louiss at gate.net Wed Aug 8 12:25:03 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: <200108081725.NAA15529@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Hey! I am in Tampa! My wife says: You have way too much computer junk! Get rid of it! So, count me in! You guys are in Orlando? Louis Schulman On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:15:11 -0400, joe wrote: # # Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the #"Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". # # OK. How many of you live within driving distance of central #Florida? Steve and I want to have a junk fest and clear out some of our #unused junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, hidden treasures. Steve suggested that we #have it on Sept 8th. # # Interested? # # Joe # #>See ya, SteveRob #X-Originating-IP: [63.68.245.221] #From: "Steve Robertson" #To: rigdonj@intellistar.net #Bcc: #Subject: Re: Hey Dude! #Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:46:55 -0400 #Mime-Version: 1.0 #Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed #Message-ID: #X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2001 20:46:56.0050 (UTC) #FILETIME=[18828120:01C11F82] # #Joe, # # #> Let me know what you're getting rid of. You may have something that I #> can't live without! # # #> Don't pitch the Kaypros. I gave away all the ones that I had but now #> I've picked up a Kaypro 2 and I'm sort of attached to it. Do >you have #> any docs or anything for them? # #Actually the KPs are pretty neat little boxes and I really didn't want to #toss them. Just want to get some of them outta my way. I do have some of #the original DOCs. Nothing technical though. Basic operators manuals, #wordstar manuals, CPM manuals, Cbasic manuals, etc... I'll throw 'em in #the truck when I come up. # #I've got some software here... Somewhere... It may take me a while to drag #up it up. I'm sure if nothing else, Don Maslin or someone else on the CC #list could provide a boot disk. Everything else can be downloaded from the #CC archives. # #>Mike, Bob or Glen might want it, Bob and Glen are here in town. Hmm. I #>was just thinking, we should try to get everyone together and #>have a mini-swap meet. Besides you and me, Bob and Glen live here in town #>and Mike lives in S. Georgia and Phil lives near Naples and I think #>there's at least one other guy that lives near Tampa. # #I think that would be great. Maybe we could do it on Saturday Sept 8th. #Everyone can throw their junk in their vehicles and we'll fight over it. #Anything that doesn't get claimed, can live with you :-) # #> Can you tell me more about the 6800 box? #> #>Well... Put it this way... It's got Dual 8" floppies and total of 4K RAM. #>The OS is just a "monitor" program. I also have a complete accounting #>package with it but never really tried to make it do anything... It was #>interfaced to antique DIABLO keyboard / printer. Let me tell you, this SOB #>is primitive! It's probably worth something. I'm just tired of tripping #>over it. #> #>I could also bring a couple of ATT UNIX boxes (wonder where they came #>from) with all the docs, an ATT 6300, and some other stuff. #> #>Why don't you send out an invitation to the "Central Florida Computer Junk #>Fest". #> #>See ya, SteveRob # From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 12:45:56 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: Louis, Welcome aboard. Joe's and several other collectors are in Orlando. I live in the Ft. Lauderdale area but will be in Orlando that weekend. Once we get a little feedback, we'll set a time and place. Is Saturday September 8th OK for you? Steverob >From: "Louis Schulman" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: "classiccmp-classiccmp.org" , "joe" > >CC: "Glenatacme-aol.com" , >"musicman38-mindspring.com" >Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! >Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:25:03 -0400 (EDT) > >Hey! I am in Tampa! My wife says: You have way too much computer >junk! Get rid of it! > >So, count me in! You guys are in Orlando? > >Louis Schulman > >On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:15:11 -0400, joe wrote: > ># ># Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the >#"Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 8 12:53:35 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: building a PDP11 from the things you find at home In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010808082639.01f0015c@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <1355.609T2300T9385729optimus@canit.se> <200107280452.VAA29040@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >"He who doesn't comprehend UNIX is destined to redesign it poorly." > >Does anybody know the origin of this quote? > >Carlos (I'm way behind in my reading). Sounds like it's based on a quote that goes something like this, "those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it". What I want to know is why does every OS seem to think it needs to look like UNIX these days? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Aug 8 13:07:53 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Whats you oldest computer In-Reply-To: <200108080524.f785Oqi19523@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > My oldest is a Minuteman missile guidance computer from 1961. Rumor > > has it there is 10k of 12 bit words of storage available on the fixed > > head hard disk. Next oldest is a Imlac PDS-1, circa 1970. After that, > > a Scelbi 8H, 1974. if its a D17B it has 5454 24 bit words on its disk. (24 bit instruction word) > > I'd be interested in pictures of the Minuteman missile guidance > computer, esp. ones of a hard drive that can take that kind of > stress. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Peter Wallace From bill at cs.scranton.edu Wed Aug 8 13:12:57 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Jeff L Kaneko wrote: > > On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:51:02 GMT "Ken Seefried" > writes: > > A company called Opus made a number of ISA cards with interesting > > coprocessors. I used to have an Opus 32000 ISA card, a National > > Semi 32016 coprocessor. It unfortunately got tossed out by a careless > > girlfriend a decade ago > > Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely *die* > if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! > > There was another 32k coprocessor effort featured in the Micro Cornucopia > > in 1986. I *so* wanted one of these, but the project died on the vine . > . . > > > (along with my unbuilt PC532 kit...sigh). > > AHHHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I still have one of these Opus cards. What's it worth?? A nice Qbus SCSI card or two would be fun!! ;-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 8 13:19:05 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: More DEC docs Message-ID: <20010808131905.K776@mrbill.net> Anybody need a copy of my scans of a PDP11V03 System Manual? I have THREE more boxes of documentation on my front porch waiting for me to go through tonight.. Will post a list on decdocs.org later to see that this all goes to good homes. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 8 13:19:45 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:33:54AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010808131945.L776@mrbill.net> On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:33:54AM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > You have unusual friends. Or one friend who is REALLY strange. > Hmmmm. Why would a spammer want thousands of old monitors,. . . They're building one of those "video walls" ? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 07:02:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1189.620T1500T7825289optimus@canit.se> Rob Lion skrev: >Speaking of almost-blank ISA cards, I have a really neat one here (in the >Mountaingate RDR I was asking about a few weeks back). The ISA bus >connections are limited only to power and ground lines, I think, though I >couldn't actually get it to work outside the backplane it came in. It has >a 40 pin IDE header on the other edge of the card, which plugs into an IDE >controller. Then it takes those signals and the power from the bus and >runs it all into a laptop-style 44 pin header, so you can mount a 2.5" >drive right there on the card with its provided screwholes. I think it >would be even cooler to combine a card like that with a really simple IDE >controller, and have the whole setup and drive on one card there. If you're not that picky about the size and interface, old "hardcards" did just that, though those were nearly full-length. A lot of Zorro SCSI controllers have on-board fitting brackets for 3,5" drives as well. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es Wed Aug 8 14:41:58 2001 From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 Format Program References: Message-ID: <008e01c12042$322fac40$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> Hello ! Some days ago I send an inquiry about the way to format one RD52 Hard Disk attached to one DILOG DQ614 board. This board treat one MFM disk like up to FOUR RL02 Hard Disks. It appears to have one ROM accessible in the address 775000 (in one PDP-11/23 PLUS), and I can access it, appearing the '*' prompt of the rom, but nothing more. Well, by courtesy of Mr. Nils Holm I know actually that I need one program that works under RT-11. This program is named DQ6140. I hope this could be an answer to all these members of the list who have one DQ614 and don't know how to put it to work. Oh... If somebody wants a prepared disk with a copy of this program and other utilities, the price that was quoted to me some days ago is of 605.- Euros. Yes, you have read perfectly: 605.- euros. The unique obscure matter is this: the RD52 (in my case) must be jumpered like DS0. I reviewed the disk and it only has the jumpers: 'DS1', 'DS2', 'DS3' (this is actually selected), 'DS4' and 'A'. There is another point that I must clear that appoint about jumper to board to access RL unit 0 on disk 0... but this last matter is easy. Finally, I must appoint that RT-11 and Unix detect that exists at least one DL0 and one DL1 in the system, but they can't access the 'bad sector info'. In the case of the DL1, Unix BSD2.11 ask me for the 'CSR'. What is this, Gurus :-) ? Greetings and Best Regards from Spain. Sergio From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 8 13:54:15 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: What's your coolest ISA card?" (Aug 8, 17:17) References: Message-ID: <10108081954.ZM13430@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 8, 17:17, John Honniball wrote: > Which reminds me, anybody ever seen a 32000 second > processor box for the BBC Micro? That's one I'd like for > the collection (it's the used in all the examples in the > above programming handbook). I don't have one, alas, but I've seen several. There were three versions: the first two were BBC B era and differed only in the amount of RAM fitted (was it 256K and 1MB?). The third was renamed the Master Scientific, but it was just the same device with a new label. About that time, Acorn produced a Universal Coprocessor box, which was a box which looked the same from the outside but had just the PSU and mounting sockets inside. It was intended to house the coprocessors designed for internal use in the Master 128. There may have been a version of the 32K to fit in it, but I can't be sure, and I seem to recall some technical problem with it. Of course, there was also the 32016 fitted inside the Acorn Scientific Workstation. That machine was a large box housing a BBC B or B+ mainboard, underneath a Microvitec colour monitor chassis, with swing-out panels to hold a PSU and a 32016 board, with two half-height 5.25" drive bays underneath, holding a floppy and an ST125, and a separate keyboard and 3-button mouse. The 32016 was the same board used in the ordinary Beeb 32016 Second Processor, with 1MB RAM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 8 12:54:53 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Mike Ford wrote: >> One of my friends is a spammer, and what he does is setup a whole new >> "persona" for each email blitz. Cost of doing business as far as he is >> concerned. > >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: >> Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or >not. One >> of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice >> big ones either, but old 14" monitors. > >You have unusual friends. Or one friend who is REALLY strange. >Hmmmm. Why would a spammer want thousands of old monitors,. . . Not to shock any fellow nerds, but I do have more than one friend. OTOH sometimes I am loose with the term friend, and apply it to people I know and speak with regularly, but that I take no responsibility for. OTOOH some of the weirdest people I have met were associated with old computers. From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 8 13:10:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, John Honniball wrote: > Which reminds me, anybody ever seen a 32000 second processor box for > the BBC Micro? That's one I'd like for the collection (it's the used > in all the examples in the above programming handbook). No, but I've got an 32016 S-100 CPU board :) I believe it's a Godbout design, but I'd have to go look to refresh my memory. Other S-100 CPUs I have: 68000 8085/8088 8086/8087 6502 (really! it's part of an Atari development board set) ...and of course 8080, Z80 :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 8 13:13:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: OT: Need "Copy Exec" ... anybody hear of this? In-Reply-To: <001d01c1202c$982e3720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Years ago I participated in a beta test program of Seagate's, for a > product that later became "Direct Tape Access," which is a program > that allows you to have a tape drive masquerade as a disk drive under > Windows. This worked fairly well, though it had some weaknesses. > Later, after the BETA testing had been completed, and after the first > release, of which I got a copy from Seagate, they released a version > that included another utility, which I also BETA tested as "Gecko" > (misspelled, but ... THEY spelled it like that.) but which was > incorporated in DTA as "Copy Exec," which enabled Drag-n-Drop from one > part of the system tree to another. > > Does anybody have a copy of that that they'd care to share? It's no > longer available from Seagate or from Veritas, which got all the > Seagate Backup software when it was spun off. Yes, I installed this software for my friend's business. I can get a copy of it next time I'm there (sometime in the next couple weeks). Shoot me your address and I'll mail it to you gratis (I promise it won't explode when you open it ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es Wed Aug 8 15:40:51 2001 From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: More DEC docs References: <20010808131905.K776@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <020001c1204a$6c7ec2c0$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> I'd like to have original documentation, or scanned in worst case, for this items: * PDP-11/23 PLUS * RL02 (Unit and Cartridges) * TS05 * BA11 enclosure (with closed front, rackable) * RX33 * RL02 Dec controller board (Q-Bus) * RD52 Hard disk * VT102 terminal * PDP-11/44 * PDP-11/70 * Microvax 3200 * Microvax 3100 * Microvax 2000 * Decstation 5000 * Vaxstation 3100 ... that corresponds to the items I have actually or I must receive in a future. Of course, any related item shall ever have a good home here. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain. Sergio ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Bill Bradford Para: Enviado: mi?rcoles, 08 de agosto de 2001 20:19:p.m. Asunto: More DEC docs > Anybody need a copy of my scans of a PDP11V03 System Manual? > > I have THREE more boxes of documentation on my front porch waiting > for me to go through tonight.. Will post a list on decdocs.org later > to see that this all goes to good homes. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 8 15:22:19 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 assembly language reference Message-ID: Several years ago, I began writing an assembly language reference manual for PDP-11 computers that was modeled after notes from a VAX assembly language class that I took. A few minutes ago, I discovered it amongst other files in my PDP-11 files archive and an idea crossed my mind: it's not doing anyone any good just sitting there on one of my systems' hard drives, so, if anyone's interested in it, or interested in completing it, let me know. I wrote it for processing by IDOCS Mint on a PERQ, which I've heard is similar to Scribe; anyone who's familiar with writing documents in LaTeX should have no trouble re-writing it in LaTeX. There's one condition to my releasing it: anyone who wants to revise it must do so in LaTeX on something other than a system running software from Microsoft. So, needless to say, you can't use Mickeysoft Wurd for this, or a system running MS-Windows. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 14:47:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <840.620T2800T12476217optimus@canit.se> John Honniball skrev: >On 7 Aug 2001 23:50:1 +0100 Iggy Drougge >wrote: >> It's funny, but all other 68000 MPUs I've seen have been either Hitachi or >> "ST" (?) models. Or plastic PLCC models. >ST = SGS-Thomson Microelectronics: http://www.st.com >The same French/Italian company that bought INMOS and the >transputer. They now build the ST6 range of >microcontrollers, and the CPU chip used in the Dreamcast, >amongst many others. I thought the Dreamcast used a Hitachi. I didn't know Thomson owned INMOS and Mostek, either. >They also bought Mostek (not MOS Technologies), builder of >the NVRAM chips used in Sun workstations as real-time clock >chips. And now suffering from dead batteries. Well, yes, we've been through that. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I'm all man underneath my skirt." Boy George From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 15:49:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808093042.00ac1620@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <813.620T500T13093809optimus@canit.se> joe skrev: >> > The battery in the bottom is for a battery operated real time clock >> >and for use in a controlled shut down in the event of a power lose. It >> >won't run the computer for more than a few seconds. It's optional and >> >it's sort of rare, I've only seen it in a couple of machines. FWIW it was >> >only available in the 9826 (aka 9000 226) and 9836 (aka 9000 236) I think >> >both of th em machines that I saw it in were 9836s. >> >>The compartment is far too big to operate any non-atomic RTC. And it >>features a warning level about the high voltages. It measures something like >> 20?15?4 cm. > It may be oversize but that's what it's for! I have the docs for it >somewhere. Admit it, Joe, you're just pulling my leg. A battery that big for an RTC? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 15:50:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: building a PDP11 from the things you find at home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <530.620T1900T13105101optimus@canit.se> Zane H. Healy skrev: >>"He who doesn't comprehend UNIX is destined to redesign it poorly." >> >>Does anybody know the origin of this quote? >Sounds like it's based on a quote that goes something like this, "those who >don't know history are doomed to repeat it". What I want to know is why >does every OS seem to think it needs to look like UNIX these days? Because some ignorant people think it's either that or MS-DOS. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 15:53:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <20010808145102.6363.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <550.620T550T13133831optimus@canit.se> Ken Seefried skrev: >A company called Opus made a number of ISA cards with interesting >coprocessors. I used to have an Opus 32000 ISA card, a National Semi 32016 >coprocessor. It unfortunately got tossed out by a careless girlfriend a >decade ago (along with my unbuilt PC532 kit...sigh). I'm pretty sure that >Opus continued this line up to the ns32332; I don't know if they ever made >one out of the ns32532. All right, let's educate the ignorant; what exactly is a PC532? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer hackers do it all night long. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 8 15:17:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-614 Format Program In-Reply-To: "SP" "DILOG DQ-614 Format Program" (Aug 8, 21:41) References: <008e01c12042$322fac40$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> Message-ID: <10108082117.ZM13544@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 8, 21:41, SP wrote: > Some days ago I send an inquiry about the way to format one > RD52 Hard Disk attached to one DILOG DQ614 board. > The unique obscure matter is this: the RD52 (in my case) must > be jumpered like DS0. I reviewed the disk and it only has the > jumpers: 'DS1', 'DS2', 'DS3' (this is actually selected), 'DS4' > and 'A'. Older floppies and MFM hard disks enjoyed two numbering schemes: some people labelled the four drive select lines as DS0 - DS3, while some people labelled them as DS1 - DS4. If your documentation refers to DS0 but your drive is labelled with DS1 - DS4, you just use DS1 instead. DEC's RXDX1/2/3 controllers normally used DS3 (in the DS1 - DS4 scheme) for all hard drives, and re-routed the signals on a distribution card to select the appropriate drive. This allowed you to move drives around without changing the links, much like IBM arranged all drives to use DS1 and a twist in the cable. > Finally, I must appoint that RT-11 and Unix detect that exists > at least one DL0 and one DL1 in the system, but they can't access > the 'bad sector info'. In the case of the DL1, Unix BSD2.11 ask me > for the 'CSR'. What is this, Gurus :-) ? CSR = Control and Status Register, which is normally mapped into memory at address 774400(octal) for the first RL(V)11 in a system. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 15:16:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <20010808131945.L776@mrbill.net> Message-ID: That would be one *big* videowall. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:33:54AM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > You have unusual friends. Or one friend who is REALLY strange. > > Hmmmm. Why would a spammer want thousands of old monitors,. . . > > They're building one of those "video walls" ? > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX > From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com Wed Aug 8 15:39:37 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 assembly language reference In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Aug 8, 2001 04:22:19 pm" Message-ID: <200108082039.f78Kdb706092@bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com> R.D. Davis wrote: > > Several years ago, I began writing an assembly language reference > manual for PDP-11 computers that was modeled after notes from a VAX > assembly language class that I took. A few minutes ago, I discovered > it amongst other files in my PDP-11 files archive and an idea crossed > my mind: it's not doing anyone any good just sitting there on one of > my systems' hard drives, so, if anyone's interested in it, or > interested in completing it, let me know. > > I wrote it for processing by IDOCS Mint on a PERQ, which I've heard is > similar to Scribe; anyone who's familiar with writing documents in > LaTeX should have no trouble re-writing it in LaTeX. There's one > condition to my releasing it: anyone who wants to revise it must do so > in LaTeX on something other than a system running software from > Microsoft. So, needless to say, you can't use Mickeysoft Wurd for > this, or a system running MS-Windows. :-) Why not troff/groff/nroff (hell -- even wordstar . command or html.) All of these let you get the original ascii out and convert it. I can even get Wordstar stuff into pdf's these days. I'm less than LaTeX literate but not too pad in the other stuff. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 15:41:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <550.620T550T13133831optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: A PC532 is a system based on a motherboard with an AT size motherboard, and AT power requirements. It is based on the National Semiconductor NS32532 processor @ 25 MHz. It was designed by George Scolaro and Dave Rand in the late 80's, and they published the *full* specs and schematics. It was mainly sold in kit form. It's a pretty nice system. NetBSD runs on it. http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/pc532/ Peace... Sridhar On 8 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > All right, let's educate the ignorant; what exactly is a PC532? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Computer hackers do it all night long. > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 15:43:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <840.620T2800T12476217optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: And I thought that Thomson was now 50%+ owned by General Electric. Peace... Sridhar On 8 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > John Honniball skrev: > > >On 7 Aug 2001 23:50:1 +0100 Iggy Drougge > >wrote: > >> It's funny, but all other 68000 MPUs I've seen have been either Hitachi or > >> "ST" (?) models. Or plastic PLCC models. > > >ST = SGS-Thomson Microelectronics: http://www.st.com > > >The same French/Italian company that bought INMOS and the > >transputer. They now build the ST6 range of > >microcontrollers, and the CPU chip used in the Dreamcast, > >amongst many others. > > I thought the Dreamcast used a Hitachi. > I didn't know Thomson owned INMOS and Mostek, either. > > >They also bought Mostek (not MOS Technologies), builder of > >the NVRAM chips used in Sun workstations as real-time clock > >chips. And now suffering from dead batteries. > > Well, yes, we've been through that. =) > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "I'm all man underneath my skirt." > Boy George > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 15:44:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: <813.620T500T13093809optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Well, he said it could also be used for controlled shutdown in case of a power failure. Peace... Sridhar On 8 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > joe skrev: > > >> > The battery in the bottom is for a battery operated real time clock > >> >and for use in a controlled shut down in the event of a power lose. It > >> >won't run the computer for more than a few seconds. It's optional and > >> >it's sort of rare, I've only seen it in a couple of machines. FWIW it was > >> >only available in the 9826 (aka 9000 226) and 9836 (aka 9000 236) I think > >> >both of th em machines that I saw it in were 9836s. > >> > >>The compartment is far too big to operate any non-atomic RTC. And it > >>features a warning level about the high voltages. It measures something like > >> 20×15×4 cm. > > > It may be oversize but that's what it's for! I have the docs for it > >somewhere. > > Admit it, Joe, you're just pulling my leg. A battery that big for an RTC? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 8 15:52:51 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:16:40PM -0400 References: <20010808131945.L776@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010808155251.I776@mrbill.net> On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:16:40PM -0400, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > That would be one *big* videowall. > Peace... Sridhar He's prepping for breakage. 8-) Like when you buy tile.. "get 10% more than you need.." Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 16:52:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <200108071200.IAA17821@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <232.620T1100T13725157optimus@canit.se> Bryan Pope skrev: >Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... >http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy Why? It seems quite pointless, nearly tasteless, what with the VGA monitor. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com Wed Aug 8 16:04:09 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 assembly language reference In-Reply-To: <200108082039.f78Kdb706092@bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com> from Bill Pechter at "Aug 8, 2001 04:39:37 pm" Message-ID: <200108082104.f78L49J06244@bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com> > All of these let you get the original ascii out and convert it. > I can even get Wordstar stuff into pdf's these days. > > I'm less than LaTeX literate but not too pad in the other > stuff. Of course that was bad -- not pad... must be this awful network I'm using... seems like the old x.25 performance. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 8 16:36:16 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 assembly language reference In-Reply-To: <200108082039.f78Kdb706092@bg-tc-ppp1688.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > Why not troff/groff/nroff (hell -- even wordstar . command or html.) Hey, things like troff/groff/nroff, runuff, or html all sound good... just as long as it stays ASCII text and anyone can read or convert it. Whatever of those things works for you. :-) How's that sound? > All of these let you get the original ascii out and convert it. > I can even get Wordstar stuff into pdf's these days. Just the other day I was looking at what I think is a Wordstar file from an MP/M system that now resides on a UNIX box. > I'm less than LaTeX literate but not too pad in the other > stuff. I'm not going to flame anyone for not being LaTeX literate; different text processors work for different people. Thanks for an interest in this! -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Aug 8 16:19:29 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:10 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <007701c11fc9$8c6680e0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: Hi, > > >Nobody wants monitors anymore...especially old or dead ones. > > > > Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or not. One > > of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice > > big ones either, but old 14" monitors. > > 3000 untested Apple monitors? Good lord....What for? A big video wall? A self illuminating garage? :&) I (along with a couple of other friends) bought a pallet of 16 laser printers and 3 serial terminals (a couple of complete wyse-60's and a VT320 -keyboard (if anyone in the UK has a spare keyboard for a vt320, I have a friend who'd be very greatful)) Now it's down to muggins here to clean them all up, and try and fix the large pile of ones that don't work straight off. -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 14:02:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <3B7100B7.AF6D9961@aconit.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at Aug 8, 1 11:04:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/04d4b89e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:48:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 7, 1 05:43:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/a8927d21/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:20:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: from "Rob Lion" at Aug 7, 1 05:17:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 459 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/f1901ae2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:55:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store (was Re: Finds in Houston) In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 8, 1 00:11:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/9367d6ce/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 14:00:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 7, 1 08:04:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/d95503d8/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 17:03:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Isn't that what used to be called a 'hardcard'? I've certainly seen ST506 >controllers on a frame with a 3.5" ST506 drive, the whole thing plugging >into an ISA slot. I would be very suprised if it was never done with IDE >drives... Plus Development manufactured a number of them under the name 'Hardcard'. As Iggy mentioned, any number of SCSI cards for the Amiga also did similar things, as did various hard disks for the Apple IIGS I believe. Mega-haus also provided some DIY kits so that you could add your controller and drive to thier frame at one point as well. I think that was geared towards the XT and Tandy 1000 owners that lacked the additional drive bays. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 17:09:44 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was indeed done with IDE drives. There was a full length Microchannel card (I forget what it was called) that had a single IDE channel and two 2.5 (or was it 3.5 1") HDDs on it. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > drive right there on the card with its provided screwholes. I think it > > would be even cooler to combine a card like that with a really simple IDE > > controller, and have the whole setup and drive on one card there. > > Isn't that what used to be called a 'hardcard'? I've certainly seen ST506 > controllers on a frame with a 3.5" ST506 drive, the whole thing plugging > into an ISA slot. I would be very suprised if it was never done with IDE > drives... > > -tony > From qltypc at nbnet.nb.ca Wed Aug 8 17:15:16 2001 From: qltypc at nbnet.nb.ca (dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Dallas RTC chips (was: Ace Message-ID: <3B71B9F4.3F070D92@nbnet.nb.ca> ok people i got this dallas 12887 thing beat, here it is. pins 2,3,16,20,21,22 are missing right. so 21 would have been clear real time clock. aka clear cmos on a motherboard. take a hacksaw an cut into the side of the dallas 12887 right in the middle of where the missing pins 20,21,22 are stop when you hit metal. take a jumper wire and short to ground. {mine was clear after i reinstalled it cause the hacksaw must have touched another pin} bago wango tango cleared the cmos. dave From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 8 17:21:35 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <007201c1201a$aefa91e0$ac62d6d1@DOMAIN> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> <007201c1201a$aefa91e0$ac62d6d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <997309299.5701.12.camel@DESK-2> On 08 Aug 2001 10:59:08 -0400, Mike wrote: > > From Joe: > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > > > Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if > anyone wants some... Mike - We might just meet each other afterall =) . I think I can make the trip up there. I can also add my $0.02 worth to the grab-bag. Jeff > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 16:41:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeff L Kaneko" at Aug 8, 1 10:36:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/21451e12/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 16:43:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Aug 8, 1 05:17:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 322 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/491a4449/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Aug 8 17:23:29 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: Hans B Pufal's message of "Wed, 08 Aug 2001 11:04:55 +0200" References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010807145558.01d42180@209.185.79.193> <3B7100B7.AF6D9961@aconit.org> Message-ID: <200108082223.f78MNTD91705@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Hans B Pufal wrote: > Mike Ford wrote: > > Coins have value even to idiots, where old chips can reach a point > > where typical people will decide there value is less than storage > > cost and into the trash it goes. > > But that does not destroy them, just more difficult to locate. Have you been to the landfill lately? It's not exactly a jumbled pile of things with dirt on top. You see, the landfill operator has tools. For example, the tractor-like vehicle with spiky metal wheels, the better to break the piled things up and spread them around a bit. That doesn't destroy the things as thoroughly as recycling for metals but it is likely to leave 'em pretty beat up. Think of it as something of a jigsaw puzzle for future archaeologists. Plus, here in Sillycon Valley there is (and has been for a few years) significant pressure to divert things away from landfill, mostly because the municipalities have been told to cut their landfill usage by 50% (relative to some years ago). Not only are residential (and one supposes commercial) users encouraged to sort out and separately bin certain recyclables, but trash also gets sorted to separate out some of the stuff that's not complete crap. Metals especially. -Frank McConnell From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 8 17:26:29 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? Message-ID: Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally wanted to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other is a 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd seems to agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the network never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's the conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've had token ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the problem seems to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/57fe1439/attachment.html From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 8 17:46:51 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010808184651.02852dd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Russ Blakeman may have mentioned these words: >>>> Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally wanted to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other is a 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd seems to agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the network never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's the conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've had token ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the problem seems to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. <<<< As they're both 3Com nic's my guess would be is that they're trying to grab the same IRQ (and/or DMA if they use DMA) and there's IRQ conficts with both of them in the machine. The only thing I can think of is if you have some DOS-based 3Com NIC setup software, boot the box with a dos boot disk with 1 of the NICs in the machine, and configure the card to use a different IRQ (like, say, IRQ 5 if you only have one printer port) then shutdown, insert the 2nd card & see if it boots OK. Dunno if this'll help, but I hope it does! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From fauradon at frontiernet.net Wed Aug 8 19:41:45 2001 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001d01c1206c$12d091a0$0264640a@frontiernet.net> No No Noooo.... I'll be in the Tampa and orlando area from the 20 th until Labor Day I'd hate to miss such an event. Or can I get a preview ;) Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe" To: "classiccmp-classiccmp.org" Cc: "Glenatacme-aol.com" ; "Mike Haas <"Mike"" ; "musicman38-mindspring.com" Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:15 AM Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > OK. How many of you live within driving distance of central > Florida? Steve and I want to have a junk fest and clear out some of our > unused junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, hidden treasures. Steve suggested that we > have it on Sept 8th. > > Interested? > > Joe > > >See ya, SteveRob > X-Originating-IP: [63.68.245.221] > From: "Steve Robertson" > To: rigdonj@intellistar.net > Bcc: > Subject: Re: Hey Dude! > Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:46:55 -0400 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > Message-ID: > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2001 20:46:56.0050 (UTC) > FILETIME=[18828120:01C11F82] > > Joe, > > > > Let me know what you're getting rid of. You may have something that I > > can't live without! > > > > Don't pitch the Kaypros. I gave away all the ones that I had but now > > I've picked up a Kaypro 2 and I'm sort of attached to it. Do >you have > > any docs or anything for them? > > Actually the KPs are pretty neat little boxes and I really didn't want to > toss them. Just want to get some of them outta my way. I do have some of > the original DOCs. Nothing technical though. Basic operators manuals, > wordstar manuals, CPM manuals, Cbasic manuals, etc... I'll throw 'em in > the truck when I come up. > > I've got some software here... Somewhere... It may take me a while to drag > up it up. I'm sure if nothing else, Don Maslin or someone else on the CC > list could provide a boot disk. Everything else can be downloaded from the > CC archives. > > >Mike, Bob or Glen might want it, Bob and Glen are here in town. Hmm. I > >was just thinking, we should try to get everyone together and > >have a mini-swap meet. Besides you and me, Bob and Glen live here in town > >and Mike lives in S. Georgia and Phil lives near Naples and I think > >there's at least one other guy that lives near Tampa. > > I think that would be great. Maybe we could do it on Saturday Sept 8th. > Everyone can throw their junk in their vehicles and we'll fight over it. > Anything that doesn't get claimed, can live with you :-) > > > Can you tell me more about the 6800 box? > > > >Well... Put it this way... It's got Dual 8" floppies and total of 4K RAM. > >The OS is just a "monitor" program. I also have a complete accounting > >package with it but never really tried to make it do anything... It was > >interfaced to antique DIABLO keyboard / printer. Let me tell you, this SOB > >is primitive! It's probably worth something. I'm just tired of tripping > >over it. > > > >I could also bring a couple of ATT UNIX boxes (wonder where they came > >from) with all the docs, an ATT 6300, and some other stuff. > > > >Why don't you send out an invitation to the "Central Florida Computer Junk > >Fest". > > > >See ya, SteveRob > > From louiss at gate.net Wed Aug 8 17:46:59 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108082246.SAA31151@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Hi Steve, The Wife says: Great idea! Go on the 8th! How many tables do you want??? May I suggest, that to promote more buyers to make the trip, we keep the Saturday time and pick a location somewhere near Skycraft Electronics? Maybe even get some flyers over there? For those of you who don't know, Skycraft in Orlando is one of the last old-time amazing electronics surplus stores. A real tourist destination for electronics junkies. Louis On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:45:56 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: #Louis, # #Welcome aboard. # #Joe's and several other collectors are in Orlando. I live in the Ft. #Lauderdale area but will be in Orlando that weekend. Once we get a little #feedback, we'll set a time and place. # #Is Saturday September 8th OK for you? # #Steverob # # #>From: "Louis Schulman" #>Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org #>To: "classiccmp-classiccmp.org" , "joe" #> #>CC: "Glenatacme-aol.com" , #>"musicman38-mindspring.com" #>Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! #>Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:25:03 -0400 (EDT) #> #>Hey! I am in Tampa! My wife says: You have way too much computer #>junk! Get rid of it! #> #>So, count me in! You guys are in Orlando? #> #>Louis Schulman #> #>On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:15:11 -0400, joe wrote: #> #># #># Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the #>#"Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". # # #_________________________________________________________________ #Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp # From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 8 18:02:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > At 01:10 PM 8/7/01 -0700, you wrote: > >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, joe wrote: > > > FWIW You could get MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.1(something) and 3.1 for > > > the Zenith Z-100. There's also a guy out there that wrote a program to > > > patch PC-DOS 4.0 to run on the Z-100. > > > >Is there a 3.31 available for it? > > > Not that I know of. MS-DOS 3.1 was the highest version that Zenith > released for it. The PC-DOs 4 is a private effort by John Beyers > . > There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; I can probably scare it up... -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 18:18:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; >I can probably scare it up... I've got a few sets of DOS 3.3+ for the Z-248 but not for the Z-150/151. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 18:02:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: PDP-11 assembly language reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <736.621T400T24425optimus@canit.se> R. D. Davis skrev: >Several years ago, I began writing an assembly language reference >manual for PDP-11 computers that was modeled after notes from a VAX >assembly language class that I took. A few minutes ago, I discovered >it amongst other files in my PDP-11 files archive and an idea crossed >my mind: it's not doing anyone any good just sitting there on one of >my systems' hard drives, so, if anyone's interested in it, or >interested in completing it, let me know. By all means, release it. I like your "licence", BTW. ^_- -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > well, maybe if it contained ChibiChibi-JarJar pairing.. Okay, so now I'm thinking about a threesome between ChibiChibi, Jar-Jar and Pikachu. You bastard. A. Jones From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 8 18:48:38 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: ASR-33 References: <20010802164833.H17258@borg.org> <3B6B2ECD.8D6A0788@tiac.net> <20010807083943.A8923@borg.org> Message-ID: <3B71CFD5.F1E8C73F@tiac.net> Hello Kent, I'd be happy to trade the ASR-33 for a not quite working, post soviet era submarine clock. The ASR-33 is set up with a cable for old HP minicomputers, but we can easily change that. As I collect the old HP machines, that connector is more valuable to me than the teletype itself. What sort of system are you going to use this with? Oh yes, I also have a full set of service manuals, so you'll be able to keep it running for a long time to come. I'm located in Leominster MA, a bit over an hour west of Boston. Kent Borg wrote: > On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:07:57PM -0400, Bob Shannon responded to my > quest for an ASR-33: > > What have you got to trade? > > Um. Only recently has my wife started to weaken over my "need" for an > ASR-33, and only more recently have I discovered this list--so I have > accumulated extremely little good stuff. (I doubt you will find old > Macintosh bits compelling...) > > I do have a Western Union clock ("Self Winding Clock Co., New York"), > but I just got it repaired and haven't even taken it out of the box. > I don't think I could part with it. (My wife likes the clock too.) > The anticipation of restoring its old "U.S. Naval Observatory Time" > claim via my basement server's NTP daemon is too much fun. > > I doubt my post-Soviet "genuine" Soviet submarine clock that doesn't > run right would be of interest either. > > I think that leaves me with only with the possibility of money to > offer. > > -kb, the Kent who used to run his e-mail through tIAC, but the Kent > who finally escaped. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 18:43:34 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: NeXT question In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Ok, I thought I had the info here somewhere but I can't find it. Could someone point me to the directions on how to reset the password on a NeXT? I got the directions from NeXT on how to do it, but that was years ago and I can't find it now. If all goes well, I'll be taking possesion of a Cube but it's password is not known. Thanks Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 8 19:51:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <454.621T2400T1116321optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Which reminds me, anybody ever seen a 32000 second >> processor box for the BBC Micro? That's one I'd like for >I've seen/used one, but I don't have one. Yes, I am looking for one as >well (and an Acorn Cambridge Workstation (a BBC model B + 32016 2nd >processor built into a colour monitor case, basically). Will those by any chance connect to a Cambridge Ring? And what is a Cambridge ring anyway? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From curt at atari-history.com Wed Aug 8 19:08:55 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? References: Message-ID: <002a01c12067$86f1fa10$c2609040@syzygy2> Russ, This is a common problem with 3COM's, especially with Win NT, they just don't play well together and despite changing settings in the MCA nvram, they usually still wont cooperate well together. Try using a 3COM and another brand like SMC or DLink which will not try to fight it out with the other 3COM. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Classic computers message group Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:26 PM Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally wanted to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other is a 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd seems to agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the network never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's the conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've had token ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the problem seems to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/75375152/attachment.html From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 8 19:13:56 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010808184651.02852dd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: I should be able to check/set the IRQ's and such automatically to prevent conflicts as they are microchannel but I'll recheck. One thing I did think of is that maybe they're both holding the same MAC address or adapter address, which is something I need to check. As far as the machine's bios/setup and NT care they are both working fine without a conflict. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Roger Merchberger -> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:47 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Two NICs in one machine - how? -> As they're both 3Com nic's my guess would be is that they're -> trying to grab -> the same IRQ (and/or DMA if they use DMA) and there's IRQ conficts with -> both of them in the machine. -> -> The only thing I can think of is if you have some DOS-based 3Com -> NIC setup -> software, boot the box with a dos boot disk with 1 of the NICs in the -> machine, and configure the card to use a different IRQ (like, -> say, IRQ 5 if -> you only have one printer port) then shutdown, insert the 2nd -> card & see if -> it boots OK. -> -> Dunno if this'll help, but I hope it does! -> Roger "Merch" Merchberger -> -- -> Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers -> Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. -> -> If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead -> disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. -> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Aug 8 19:16:05 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? Message-ID: <6f.1927d95d.28a33045@aol.com> In a message dated 8/8/01 6:50:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zmerch@30below.com writes: << Rumor has it that Russ Blakeman may have mentioned these words: >>>> Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally wanted to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other is a 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd seems to agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the network never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's the conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've had token ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the problem seems to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. <<<< As they're both 3Com nic's my guess would be is that they're trying to grab the same IRQ (and/or DMA if they use DMA) and there's IRQ conficts with both of them in the machine. The only thing I can think of is if you have some DOS-based 3Com NIC setup software, boot the box with a dos boot disk with 1 of the NICs in the machine, and configure the card to use a different IRQ (like, say, IRQ 5 if you only have one printer port) then shutdown, insert the 2nd card & see if it boots OK. >> we're talking microchannel here, so the machine will have whatever settings it needs to configure the NICs from the.adf files it loads in. To verify, boot into the IML partition and choose the option to view configuration. If there's a splat (*) beside any of the resources listed for the NICs, there is indeed a resource conflict. that can be changed by choosing the option to change configuration and seeing if there are relevant options to choose. you got NT service pack 3 or higher installed? -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Wed Aug 8 19:54:35 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! References: Message-ID: <3B71DF4B.1183851B@bedrocksys.com> I'm dying to get a decent SS-50 setup (especially w/ a 6809 processor)...and I really don't have an S-100 setup...and a Commodor Superpet would be cool...and one of those missle guidance computers...and... :-) John Steve Robertson wrote: > > Load 'em up. > > I've probably got a whole truckload of stuff looking for an new home and I > don't expect to haul ANY of it home. Once I get it sorted out, I'll send a > list of what's available. > > Let us know what kinda stuff your interested in and you might get lucky. > > I'm primarily interested in HP minicomputers, STD BUS systems, and Z80 > development thingys. > > We haven't decided on a place or time yet. Obviously, we'd like to > accomodate as many local collectors as possible. > > SteveRob > > >From: "Mike" > >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! > >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:59:08 -0400 > > > > > From Joe: > > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > > > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > > > > > >Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if > >anyone wants some... > > > >;) > >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- John W. Linville Bedrock Systems From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 8 19:48:46 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: NeXT question References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002901c1206d$0d4f27e0$cd731fd1@default> Marvin sent me the instruction that are in the user's manual but I still had no luck changing the password on the Turbo I got last year. If you want try it I will type it in and email it to you ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:43 PM Subject: NeXT question > Ok, I thought I had the info here somewhere but I can't find > it. Could someone point me to the directions on how to reset the > password on a NeXT? I got the directions from NeXT on how to do it, > but that was years ago and I can't find it now. If all goes well, > I'll be taking possesion of a Cube but it's password is not known. > > Thanks > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 8 19:38:22 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: <002a01c12067$86f1fa10$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: That's a thought, I'll drop my DCA or other in it...or wait until I get my two Olicom 10/100's in early next week. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt Vendel Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 7:09 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Two NICs in one machine - how? Russ, This is a common problem with 3COM's, especially with Win NT, they just don't play well together and despite changing settings in the MCA nvram, they usually still wont cooperate well together. Try using a 3COM and another brand like SMC or DLink which will not try to fight it out with the other 3COM. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Classic computers message group Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:26 PM Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally wanted to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other is a 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd seems to agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the network never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's the conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've had token ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the problem seems to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010808/db7d44bf/attachment.html From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 8 18:40:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 > 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally > wanted to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the > other is a 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds > thema nd seems to agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP > address but the network never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the > 529) it does. Where's the conflict coming from? What's the easiest way > to correct this? I've had token ring and ethernet in at the same time > int he past fine but the problem seems to be due to the same type of > network topology being duplicated. The most likely conflicts are hardware. Check the interrupts and the base address each card is using. Try configuring them manually, rather than allowing them to "plug 'n play" (if you aren't doing so already). NT might also be the culprit, but I'm a Linux guy. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 8 20:13:29 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: PDP-11 assembly language reference Message-ID: <008e01c12071$0f2a7ac0$50799a8d@ajp166> From: Iggy Drougge To: R. D. Davis >R. D. Davis skrev: > >>Several years ago, I began writing an assembly language reference >>manual for PDP-11 computers that was modeled after notes from a VAX >>assembly language class that I took. A few minutes ago, I discovered >>it amongst other files in my PDP-11 files archive and an idea crossed >>my mind: it's not doing anyone any good just sitting there on one of >>my systems' hard drives, so, if anyone's interested in it, or >>interested in completing it, let me know. > >By all means, release it. > >I like your "licence", BTW. ^_- The first really interesting thing to _not_ get deleted in weeks on the list. Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 14:18:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <1189.620T1500T7825289optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01Aug8.212200edt.119111@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/8/01 8:00 AM, Iggy Drougge at optimus@canit.se wrote: > A lot of Zorro SCSI controllers have on-board fitting brackets for 3,5" drives > as well. The DKB Rapidfire is like that and there certainly isn't much to that board at all. Jeff From jrice at texoma.net Wed Aug 8 20:13:46 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: NeXT question References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3B71E3CA.F6B6985D@texoma.net> Try http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/index.html there are links to Faq's there. Jeff Hellige wrote: > > Ok, I thought I had the info here somewhere but I can't find > it. Could someone point me to the directions on how to reset the > password on a NeXT? I got the directions from NeXT on how to do it, > but that was years ago and I can't find it now. If all goes well, > I'll be taking possesion of a Cube but it's password is not known. > > Thanks > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 8 20:28:53 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <232.620T1100T13725157optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Aug 8, 1 10:52:22 pm" Message-ID: <200108090128.SAA11920@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... > >http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy > > Why? It seems quite pointless, nearly tasteless, what with the VGA monitor. Because it allows us to still be using Commodores and hopefully repair any future problems with open-source, current technology. It's not merely a modern C64 anyway; it has a '816 core, SDRAM controller, SVGA output and she's even talking Ethernet in the spec. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 20:43:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: NeXT question In-Reply-To: <3B71E3CA.F6B6985D@texoma.net> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3B71E3CA.F6B6985D@texoma.net> Message-ID: Yep, that did it. It was right there in the Peanuts FAQ, where I should've thought to look in the first place! Thanks! Jeff >Try http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/index.html >there are links to Faq's there. > >Jeff Hellige wrote: >> >> Ok, I thought I had the info here somewhere but I can't find >> it. Could someone point me to the directions on how to reset the >> password on a NeXT? I got the directions from NeXT on how to do it, >> but that was years ago and I can't find it now. If all goes well, >> I'll be taking possesion of a Cube but it's password is not known. >> >> Thanks >> Jeff >> -- >> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File >> http://www.cchaven.com >> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 8 21:13:34 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <200108090128.SAA11920@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... > > >http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy > > > > Why? It seems quite pointless, nearly tasteless, what with the VGA monitor. > > Because it allows us to still be using Commodores and hopefully repair any > future problems with open-source, current technology. It's not merely a > modern C64 anyway; it has a '816 core, SDRAM controller, SVGA output and > she's even talking Ethernet in the spec. Jeri Ellsworth will be speaking about the C=1 at VCF 5.0. She'll have the prototype on hand and may even run a slide show through the data projector from its VGA port! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From technos at nerdland.org Wed Aug 8 22:25:03 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? Message-ID: <01C12061.5A22C830.technos@nerdland.org> I dealt with a similar prob.. Came down to both cards were factory set to hard IO/IRQ assignment. Just grab the 3Com config tools, set them to 0x280 and 0x300 IRQ 10 and 11(or whatever you have free). Mine were both 529 tho.. Jim On Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:26 PM, Russ Blakeman [SMTP:rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: > Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 > 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally > wanted > to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other > is a > 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd seems > to > agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the > network > never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's > the > conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've had > token > ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the problem > seems > to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. > << File: ATT00001.html >> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 8 22:56:27 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: <01C12061.5A22C830.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: Will give it a try, thanks. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck -> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 10:25 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Two NICs in one machine - how? -> -> -> I dealt with a similar prob.. Came down to both cards were factory set -> to -> hard IO/IRQ assignment. Just grab the 3Com config tools, set them to -> 0x280 and 0x300 IRQ 10 and 11(or whatever you have free). -> -> Mine were both 529 tho.. -> -> Jim -> -> On Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:26 PM, Russ Blakeman -> [SMTP:rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: -> > Curious if any ethernet experts are out there - I finally got my PS/2 -> > 9595-OPT server out of storage and built with WinNT4.0 and originally -> > wanted -> > to put two NICs in - one is a 3Com 3C523 with AUI/Coax and the other -> > is a -> > 3C529TP with AUI/RJ45 - both ethernet though. NT finds thema nd -> seems -> > to -> > agree with them and I am able to give each a TCP/IP address but the -> > network -> > never comes up. If I pull the 523 (or even the 529) it does. Where's -> > the -> > conflict coming from? What's the easiest way to correct this? I've -> had -> > token -> > ring and ethernet in at the same time int he past fine but the -> problem -> > seems -> > to be due to the same type of network topology being duplicated. -> > << File: ATT00001.html >> -> -> -> -> -> From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 8 22:57:42 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you can't change the IRQ and I/O in the reference partition, you're up a shit creek. If they're holding the same MAC address (which they shouldn't be), then try them on two separate networks. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I should be able to check/set the IRQ's and such automatically to prevent > conflicts as they are microchannel but I'll recheck. One thing I did think > of is that maybe they're both holding the same MAC address or adapter > address, which is something I need to check. As far as the machine's > bios/setup and NT care they are both working fine without a conflict. From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 9 00:44:54 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Isn't that what used to be called a 'hardcard'? I've certainly seen ST506 > controllers on a frame with a 3.5" ST506 drive, the whole thing plugging > into an ISA slot. I would be very suprised if it was never done with IDE > drives... Tony, Quantum built a Hardcard EZ with an inbuilt IDE card and 127mb IDE drive. It used cable selection to identify the drive. - don From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 9 02:30:56 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 08, 2001 04:40:23 PM Message-ID: <200108090730.DAA05992@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > The most likely conflicts are hardware. Check the interrupts and the base > address each card is using. Try configuring them manually, rather than > allowing them to "plug 'n play" (if you aren't doing so already). > > NT might also be the culprit, but I'm a Linux guy. I've got a 486 with three NICs in it, one 3Com, one NE2000 and an NE2000 clone (or at least it appears as an NE2000 to the system). When I added the third card, I had a problem with the 3Com, but that was because I had it jumpered for MEM access. Once I jumpered it for IO access it started working. All under Linux 2.0 mind you 8-) -spc (Available information upon request ... ) From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 9 03:04:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: Two NICs in one machine - how? In-Reply-To: <200108090730.DAA05992@conman.org> Message-ID: Microchannel cards tend not to have jumpers for most things though. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > > > The most likely conflicts are hardware. Check the interrupts and the base > > address each card is using. Try configuring them manually, rather than > > allowing them to "plug 'n play" (if you aren't doing so already). > > > > NT might also be the culprit, but I'm a Linux guy. > > I've got a 486 with three NICs in it, one 3Com, one NE2000 and an NE2000 > clone (or at least it appears as an NE2000 to the system). When I added the > third card, I had a problem with the 3Com, but that was because I had it > jumpered for MEM access. Once I jumpered it for IO access it started > working. > > All under Linux 2.0 mind you 8-) > > -spc (Available information upon request ... ) > From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Thu Aug 9 03:28:00 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: ST Microelectronics Message-ID: > The same French/Italian company that bought INMOS and the > transputer. They now build the ST6 range of > microcontrollers The ST20 range (now dead?) was basically the transputer core minus the links. I don't know how long they kept that range going though, at the time that I left (mid 96) the T450 had been renamed ST20450 and was being used in a set-top box. I forget who the box was for though :-/ It's probably fair to say that the ST20450 was the last of the "real" transputers, by the time it was released to market the T9000 was still under development (did it *ever* make it out the door as a product?). I'm not sure it if was that widely used - it wasn't exactly promoted with a fanfare :-) I got the impression that ST didn't really want the ST20 though, it didn't sit well with their other microcontrollers and they were more interested in developing graphics chips at ST Bristol by the time I left. Shame. --al From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Thu Aug 9 04:15:58 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: UC04 configuration Message-ID: <4d7d9537a6.537a64d7d9@ono.com> Hello. Somebody knows how to configure one Emulex UC04 (with one SCSI disk of 1GB connected) to work in one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? Thanks in advance. Greetings and Best Regards from Spain Sergio From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1514.monmouth.com Thu Aug 9 06:54:49 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1514.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:11 2005 Subject: NeXT Passwords In-Reply-To: <002901c1206d$0d4f27e0$cd731fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Aug 8, 2001 07:48:46 pm" Message-ID: <200108091154.f79BsnL09361@bg-tc-ppp1514.monmouth.com> > Marvin sent me the instruction that are in the user's manual but I still > had no luck changing the password on the Turbo I got last year. If you > want try it I will type it in and email it to you ? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:43 PM > Subject: NeXT question > > > > Ok, I thought I had the info here somewhere but I can't find > > it. Could someone point me to the directions on how to reset the > > password on a NeXT? I got the directions from NeXT on how to do it, > > but that was years ago and I can't find it now. If all goes well, > > I'll be taking possesion of a Cube but it's password is not known. > > > > Thanks > > Jeff One of the guys I work with is a NeXT fan... Here's the answer he sent me. > Subject: Re: NeXT question (fwd from Bill Pechter) > > have him go into rom monitor before it boots. The > key combo is 'command ~'. Then, do a 'bsd -s' > (foot booting into single user mode). Then have > him mount / as rw and change passwd. If he is > talking about hw passwd, then he needs to remove > the battery for about 15 minutes. > >Kyle From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 07:17:57 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: Louis, Since it's in Joe's backyard, I'll let him pick the location. This time of year a parking lot is probably not the best choice. I'm thinking maybe a public park or at the very least a place with some shade! Not sure but, I gotta feeling the folks at Skycraft would take exception to us posting flyers there. SteveRob >From: "Louis Schulman" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" , "Steve >Robertson" >Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! >Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 18:46:59 -0400 (EDT) > >Hi Steve, > >The Wife says: Great idea! Go on the 8th! How many tables do you >want??? > >May I suggest, that to promote more buyers to make the trip, we keep >the Saturday time and pick a location somewhere near Skycraft >Electronics? Maybe even get some flyers over there? For those of you >who don't know, Skycraft in Orlando is one of the last old-time amazing >electronics surplus stores. A real tourist destination for electronics >junkies. > >Louis > >On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:45:56 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > >#Louis, ># >#Welcome aboard. ># >#Joe's and several other collectors are in Orlando. I live in the Ft. >#Lauderdale area but will be in Orlando that weekend. Once we get a >little >#feedback, we'll set a time and place. ># >#Is Saturday September 8th OK for you? ># >#Steverob ># ># >#>From: "Louis Schulman" >#>Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >#>To: "classiccmp-classiccmp.org" , >"joe" >#> >#>CC: "Glenatacme-aol.com" , >#>"musicman38-mindspring.com" >#>Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! >#>Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:25:03 -0400 (EDT) >#> >#>Hey! I am in Tampa! My wife says: You have way too much computer >#>junk! Get rid of it! >#> >#>So, count me in! You guys are in Orlando? >#> >#>Louis Schulman >#> >#>On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:15:11 -0400, joe wrote: >#> >#># >#># Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to >the >#>#"Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". ># ># >#_________________________________________________________________ >#Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ># > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From kentborg at borg.org Thu Aug 9 08:19:00 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston In-Reply-To: <20010808131945.L776@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:19:45PM -0500 References: <20010808131945.L776@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010809091900.A16845@borg.org> On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:19:45PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > They're building one of those "video walls" ? I once toyed with such an idea. A surplus 6-slot Macintosh filled with 5 video cards and one ethernet card, and 5 original Macintosh monitors (that was a nice monitor) could be had for pretty cheap. Several copies of the whole thing could be had for pretty cheap. Could make a really big data-wall. What fun! Then I computed how much it would all weigh, how much electricity it would draw, how much heat it would dump, and how underpowered a mere Mac IIfx is for so many bits to slop around. As with my recent purchase of new hardware for my basement server, it is hard to come up with a computation that makes very old computers look good against new in price/performance terms. -kb, the Kent who still wants an ASR-33, but for non-price/performance reasons. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Aug 9 08:47:04 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <20010809084704.B4468016@uiuc.edu> not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone would know, it would be this bunch... where did the convention of using "^x" to represent "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention everywhere, but it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol mean "hold control while pressing the following key"? I think this came up because someone pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard until they figured out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 9 08:55:11 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: References: <3B7100B7.AF6D9961@aconit.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010809085126.02a75810@pc> At 08:02 PM 8/8/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Do you honestly think that the average garbage dump is even close to >being an anti-static environment? I'd say most of them are pretty close to ground. :-) Apart from a rush of charges that might be generated when picked up and dumped, isn't the environment rather unchanging? - John From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 09:15:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010809084704.B4468016@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <01Aug9.102329edt.119093@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/9/01 9:47 AM, Dan Wright at dtwright@uiuc.edu wrote: > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone would know, it > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using "^x" to represent > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention everywhere, but > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol mean "hold > control > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up because someone > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard until they figured > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? I believe Wordstar used to display the control sequences for cut and pasting and other block move type commands in that format in it's menus. I'm almost positive that versions of Worstar I was using on XT-clones in the mid-80's were like that. At the time, quite a large number of text editors, including those included with programs such as TurboBasic, used the Wordstar commands and conventions as well. Jeff From Gary.Messick at itt.com Thu Aug 9 09:15:19 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B38@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> I know some of the older software such as MBASIC for CP/M, and maybe even earlier stuff, used to OUTPUT a ^C when the user type a Ctrl-C. Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:47 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: an odd question > > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone > would know, it > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using > "^x" to represent > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention > everywhere, but > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol > mean "hold control > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up > because someone > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard > until they figured > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] > -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with > holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Aug 9 09:20:22 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Desperately looking for an X11 server for Inmos G300-based boards Message-ID: <3B729C26.6097EE4D@olf.com> Hi, I am looking for X11R5 source code for the IMSB020 (aka "Bozo") graphics motherboard (contains a IMSG330) OR any other transputer-based X11 source code. Either that, or at least an implementation of an X11 server for the IMSG3xx chipset. I have the source code to the Helios OS for the transputer, but not the source to their X11R4 implementation. So, I want to port the X11R6.6 code over, but I also want an XServer as well. I believe John Honniball said he had it, but he never responds to me emails :-( Any help would help every transputer user. Thanks for your respond... Ram PS: I think the Amiga Visiona used the IMSG33x chipset, so that might help. But I couldnt find anything on the net.... -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Aug 9 09:27:13 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B38@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: We used that nomenclature in the user manual for the LHS BASIC timesharing system that was clunking around in 1973. I don't know for sure, but I think we may have lifted it from the HP 2000B manuals... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Messick, Gary Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 7:15 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: an odd question I know some of the older software such as MBASIC for CP/M, and maybe even earlier stuff, used to OUTPUT a ^C when the user type a Ctrl-C. Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:47 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: an odd question > > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone > would know, it > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using > "^x" to represent > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention > everywhere, but > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol > mean "hold control > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up > because someone > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard > until they figured > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] > -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with > holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 9 09:25:29 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B38@acdfwx3.acdin.de. ittind.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010809092438.02a34970@pc> At 09:15 AM 8/9/01 -0500, Messick, Gary wrote: >I know some of the older software such as MBASIC for CP/M, and maybe even >earlier stuff, used to OUTPUT a ^C when the user type a Ctrl-C. I remember RSTS timesharing systems doing that even before CP/M. - John From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 9 09:42:25 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B38@acdfwx3.acdin.de. ittind.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010809094225.009ada10@ubanproductions.com> The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. --tom > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:47 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: an odd question > > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone > would know, it > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using > "^x" to represent > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention > everywhere, but > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol > mean "hold control > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up > because someone > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard > until they figured > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] > -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with > holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 9 09:56:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <01Aug9.102329edt.119093@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > on 8/9/01 9:47 AM, Dan Wright at dtwright@uiuc.edu wrote: > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone would know, it > > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using "^x" to represent > > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention everywhere, but > > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol mean "hold > > control > > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up because someone > > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard until they figured > > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? > > I believe Wordstar used to display the control sequences for cut and > pasting and other block move type commands in that format in it's menus. > I'm almost positive that versions of Worstar I was using on XT-clones in the > mid-80's were like that. At the time, quite a large number of text editors, > including those included with programs such as TurboBasic, used the Wordstar > commands and conventions as well. > > Jeff > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 09:58:45 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <200108082246.SAA31151@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809105716.00aa6a00@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:46 PM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Steve, > >The Wife says: Great idea! Go on the 8th! How many tables do you >want??? > >May I suggest, that to promote more buyers to make the trip, we keep >the Saturday time and pick a location somewhere near Skycraft >Electronics? Glen's place isn't too far from SkyCraft. > Maybe even get some flyers over there? For those of you >who don't know, Skycraft in Orlando is one of the last old-time amazing >electronics surplus stores. A real tourist destination for electronics >junkies. FWIW that's where I meet Mike. We were both in there looking at soem HP terminals. Joe >Louis > >On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:45:56 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > >#Louis, ># >#Welcome aboard. ># >#Joe's and several other collectors are in Orlando. I live in the Ft. >#Lauderdale area but will be in Orlando that weekend. Once we get a >little >#feedback, we'll set a time and place. ># >#Is Saturday September 8th OK for you? ># >#Steverob ># ># >#>From: "Louis Schulman" >#>Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >#>To: "classiccmp-classiccmp.org" , >"joe" >#> >#>CC: "Glenatacme-aol.com" , >#>"musicman38-mindspring.com" >#>Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! >#>Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:25:03 -0400 (EDT) >#> >#>Hey! I am in Tampa! My wife says: You have way too much computer >#>junk! Get rid of it! >#> >#>So, count me in! You guys are in Orlando? >#> >#>Louis Schulman >#> >#>On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:15:11 -0400, joe wrote: >#> >#># >#># Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to >the >#>#"Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". ># ># >#_________________________________________________________________ >#Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ># From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 09:43:38 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Location, date and time Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809101302.00acce50@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, I talked to Glen and he said that we can meet at his computer store. It's not very big so most of the meeting will have to be out in the parking lot. Steve suggested September 8th for the meeting and Glen ageed to that, so we picked a time of 9AM. Glen's store in located next at 5511 West Colonial Blvd (west Highway 50) in west Orlando. It's located just east of the intersection of Kirkman road and highway 50 and is next to the Wendy's hamburger restraurant. You have to drive into the Wendy's parking lot then drive around like you are going to the drive thru windoe but when you get to the other side of the restraurant you swing to the right and drive into his parking lot. (It's not as complicated as it sounds). Things that I'm planning on bringing include the Digalog computer (Euro-bus with GesPac cards), some rack mount PCs that use passive backplanes and CPUs on a card, possible some Cromemco S-100s, a Zilog ZDS Z-80 developement system. I'm sure there will be more added to the pile as I come across it. Wants: Glen wants Z-80 stuff, particurlarly Timexs and Sinclairs (have I got a deal for him!!). Steve wants HP minis. Bob wants Compupro and Sun stuff. I need cards and a top case to rebuild one of my Altairs. Mike wants Motorola stuff particularly 6800. Joe At 11:58 AM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >Load 'em up. > >I've probably got a whole truckload of stuff looking for an new home and I >don't expect to haul ANY of it home. Once I get it sorted out, I'll send a >list of what's available. > >Let us know what kinda stuff your interested in and you might get lucky. > >I'm primarily interested in HP minicomputers, STD BUS systems, and Z80 >development thingys. > >We haven't decided on a place or time yet. Obviously, we'd like to >accomodate as many local collectors as possible. > >SteveRob > > > >>From: "Mike" >>Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>To: >>Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! >>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:59:08 -0400 >> >> > From Joe: >> > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the >> > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". >> > >> >>Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if >>anyone wants some... >> >>;) >>- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ken at seefried.com Thu Aug 9 10:01:21 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you find at home) In-Reply-To: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010809150121.9987.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: Carlos Murillo > "He who doesn't comprehend UNIX is destined to redesign it poorly." > Does anybody know the origin of this quote? Henry Spencer. He also said "If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge", which I think is pretty funny, too. Oh, yeah...and his 10 Commandments of C Programmers is gospel. Helluva guy. Ken From ken at seefried.com Thu Aug 9 10:02:46 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010809150246.9993.qmail@mail.seefried.com> It's a bit of a drive, but I'm in Atlanta. That might be fun. Ken From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:04:49 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <200108082246.SAA31151@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809110132.00aa66e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:46 PM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Steve, > >The Wife says: Great idea! Go on the 8th! How many tables do you >want??? > >May I suggest, that to promote more buyers to make the trip, we keep >the Saturday time and pick a location somewhere near Skycraft >Electronics? Maybe even get some flyers over there? That's a good idea. I think Glen is going to put up some notices. We may be a able to post one at ShyJunk. The only problem is that we may be flooded with people bringing in PCs! I don't want to say "no PCs" but I don't want it to turn into a PC flood either. Joe Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:06:30 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <007201c1201a$aefa91e0$ac62d6d1@DOMAIN> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809110543.00ac7710@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:59 AM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: > > From Joe: > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > > >Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if >anyone wants some... I know Glen wants Timex and Sinclair stuff. Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 9 10:17:34 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010809101658.00e637c0@pc> At 09:15 AM 8/9/01 -0500, Messick, Gary wrote: >I know some of the older software such as MBASIC for CP/M, and maybe even >earlier stuff, used to OUTPUT a ^C when the user type a Ctrl-C. I sent a note to Tom Jennings about this. Perhaps he has an answer. For his delightfully detailed history of character sets, visit http://www.wps.com/texts/codes/index.html . - John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:14:11 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <3B71DF4B.1183851B@bedrocksys.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809111111.00ab8ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:54 PM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >I'm dying to get a decent SS-50 setup (especially w/ a 6809 >processor)...and I really don't have an S-100 setup...and a Commodor >Superpet would be cool...and one of those missle guidance >computers...and... :-) Damm and I already sold my SuperPet. I still have a Commie pet though and some Cromemco S-100s. I only guidance computers, one is for an aircraft (I think) and the other is out of a Lantirn pod. Just bring $$$ :-) Joe >John > >Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > Load 'em up. > > > > I've probably got a whole truckload of stuff looking for an new home and I > > don't expect to haul ANY of it home. Once I get it sorted out, I'll send a > > list of what's available. > > > > Let us know what kinda stuff your interested in and you might get lucky. > > > > I'm primarily interested in HP minicomputers, STD BUS systems, and Z80 > > development thingys. > > > > We haven't decided on a place or time yet. Obviously, we'd like to > > accomodate as many local collectors as possible. > > > > SteveRob > > > > >From: "Mike" > > >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! > > >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:59:08 -0400 > > > > > > > From Joe: > > > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > > > > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > > > > > > > > >Hey, this is close enough for me to pack up a carload of 8-bitters too if > > >anyone wants some... > > > > > >;) > > >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > >-- >John W. Linville >Bedrock Systems From ken at seefried.com Thu Aug 9 10:22:21 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: NS32000 & PC532 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010809152221.10080.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Very educational thread. Didn't know that BBC had a 32000 coprocessor. I mildly collect old 32000 gear, so if you want to see them go to a good home, let me know. Especially an MG-1 (:-)), although I'd really like to find a Ceres-2 or Ceres-3 (built at ETH Switzerland, used by Niklaus Wirth for a lot of the development of Oberon). Oh, yeah...and another Heurikon VME532 or parts of same would *really* help out a bunch! From: Jeff L Kaneko >> (along with my unbuilt PC532 kit...sigh). > AHHHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! You aren't kindding. It only took me a decade to replace that box (only a few months ago). I'd like to find another one. From: Bill Gunshannon > I still have one of these Opus cards. What's it worth?? Do you still have the software? From: Sellam Ismail > No, but I've got an 32016 S-100 CPU board :) Ouch! That fired a long dormant brain cell. I remember that board. From: "Iggy Drougge" > All right, let's educate the ignorant; what exactly is a PC532? It's a completely public domain computer design done by two NS engineers, George Scolaro and Dave Rand, in the late '80s. 25MHz 32532 processor (MMU built in), 32381 FPU, 8 serial ports, 2 scsi busses, expansion bus. They published the complete hardware & software specs, and put together a few hundred kits and sold them to folks to build (a la Heathkit). I saved a bunch of pennies to buy mine. It orignally ran a port of Minix, but many of the survivors now run NetBSD. A Google search will turn up what little info survives. Ken From kapteynr at cboe.com Thu Aug 9 10:33:49 2001 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF07F9DE94@msx1.cboe.com> I don't have the detailed history available to me now, but -- didn't WordStar run under CP/M long before MS-DOS was created ? -----Original Message----- From: Master of all that Sucks [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:56 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: an odd question Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > on 8/9/01 9:47 AM, Dan Wright at dtwright@uiuc.edu wrote: > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone would know, it > > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using "^x" to represent > > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention everywhere, but > > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol mean "hold > > control > > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up because someone > > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard until they figured > > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? > > I believe Wordstar used to display the control sequences for cut and > pasting and other block move type commands in that format in it's menus. > I'm almost positive that versions of Worstar I was using on XT-clones in the > mid-80's were like that. At the time, quite a large number of text editors, > including those included with programs such as TurboBasic, used the Wordstar > commands and conventions as well. > > Jeff > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:31:07 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809112853.01d27cf0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:02 PM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: > > At 01:10 PM 8/7/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, joe wrote: > > > > FWIW You could get MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.1(something) and 3.1 >for > > > > the Zenith Z-100. There's also a guy out there that wrote a program to > > > > patch PC-DOS 4.0 to run on the Z-100. > > > > > >Is there a 3.31 available for it? > > > > > > Not that I know of. MS-DOS 3.1 was the highest version that Zenith > > released for it. The PC-DOs 4 is a private effort by John Beyers > > . > > > >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; >I can probably scare it up... Thanks for the offer but the 150 and higher models are completely different machines from the Z-100. They use the ISA buss and are 100% IBM compatible so the OS is basicly PC DOS. Joe >-dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:33:08 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: References: < <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809113121.00ac8390@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:18 PM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >> >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; >>I can probably scare it up... > > I've got a few sets of DOS 3.3+ for the Z-248 but not for the > Z-150/151. It should work on the 150s. The 248 is an AT type machine (286 CPU, built in hard drive,e tc) and the 150s are XT type machines (8088 CPU). joe > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Aug 9 10:44:13 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market on 8/19? In-Reply-To: <20010809150246.9993.qmail@mail.seefried.com> References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010809113854.029d19b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Does anyone know if there'll be an MIT flea market on August 19th? I'll be in the Boston area on business from the 12th to the 23rd and thought I'd do some scroungin' over the weekend. If it's on, I could also use fairly precise directions. I'll be staying in Nashua, NH -- down the street from ZKO from the DEC folks in the group -- I'm pretty familiar with the general area, but don't really know my way around Cambridge. -- Tony From Gary.Messick at itt.com Thu Aug 9 10:45:09 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B39@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> I think Wordstar pre-dates MS-DOS by more than a few years ;) Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: Master of all that Sucks [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:56 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: an odd question > > > > Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > on 8/9/01 9:47 AM, Dan Wright at dtwright@uiuc.edu wrote: > > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if > anyone would know, it > > > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using > "^x" to represent > > > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that > convention everywhere, but > > > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat > symbol mean "hold > > > control > > > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up > because someone > > > pointed out that using pine the first time was really > hard until they figured > > > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that > convention came from? > > > > I believe Wordstar used to display the control > sequences for cut and > > pasting and other block move type commands in that format > in it's menus. > > I'm almost positive that versions of Worstar I was using on > XT-clones in the > > mid-80's were like that. At the time, quite a large number > of text editors, > > including those included with programs such as TurboBasic, > used the Wordstar > > commands and conventions as well. > > > > Jeff > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:42:56 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: HP 9000/226 In-Reply-To: References: <813.620T500T13093809optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809113541.01d208d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:44 PM 8/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >Well, he said it could also be used for controlled shutdown in case of a >power failure. Right. I should have made that clearer. The way it works is that AC power lose is detected and generates an error condition that can be detected using an "On error xx. Goto yyyy" type statement in the user program. Upon meeting that condition, the user can have the program jump to any desired subroutine that does what ever file saves and shut down procedures are necessary. Obviously the battery must keep the machine running for some period of time for this to happen so it is a sort of UPS. The manual doesn't say how long the battery will keep the machine running but clearly they expect you to save your data and shut the system down as quickly as practicle. Joe >Peace... Sridhar > >On 8 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > joe skrev: > > > > >> > The battery in the bottom is for a battery operated real time > clock > > >> >and for use in a controlled shut down in the event of a power lose. It > > >> >won't run the computer for more than a few seconds. It's optional and > > >> >it's sort of rare, I've only seen it in a couple of machines. FWIW > it was > > >> >only available in the 9826 (aka 9000 226) and 9836 (aka 9000 236) I > think > > >> >both of th em machines that I saw it in were 9836s. > > >> > > >>The compartment is far too big to operate any non-atomic RTC. And it > > >>features a warning level about the high voltages. It measures > something like > > >> 20?15?4 cm. > > > > > It may be oversize but that's what it's for! I have the docs for it > > >somewhere. > > > > Admit it, Joe, you're just pulling my leg. A battery that big for an RTC? > > > > -- > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Aug 9 10:49:28 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. > > Peace... Sridhar > Well, I am rather inclined to doubt that. It would be totally anachronous. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:47:05 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: References: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809114536.01d2a720@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:41 PM 8/8/01 +0100, you wrote: > > Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely *die* > > if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! Rumor has it that Steve is going to bring his AT&T 3B2s to the junk fest in Orlando. I think they have 32k CPUs. Joe From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com Thu Aug 9 10:55:45 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF07F9DE94@msx1.cboe.com> from Rob Kapteyn at "Aug 9, 2001 10:33:49 am" Message-ID: <200108091555.f79Ftj510921@bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com> > I don't have the detailed history available to me now, > but -- > didn't WordStar run under CP/M long before MS-DOS was created ? Hell yes... WordStar dates back to the late '70's http://www.petrie.u-net.com/wordstar/history/history.htm. Bill From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 10:57:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809113121.00ac8390@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <01Aug9.120552edt.119067@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/9/01 11:33 AM, joe at rigdonj@intellistar.net wrote: > It should work on the 150s. The 248 is an AT type machine (286 CPU, > built in hard drive,e tc) and the 150s are XT type machines (8088 CPU). I wasn't sure if there would be any BIOS differences that mattered though, like for the hard disk support. Towards the end, we even had 386SX upgrade boards for some of our 248's. Never did any hard disk upgrades on any of them...they were all still running the ST-225's and ST-251's that they shipped with. Jeff From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com Thu Aug 9 10:58:18 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010809094225.009ada10@ubanproductions.com> from Tom Uban at "Aug 9, 2001 09:42:25 am" Message-ID: <200108091558.f79FwIH10979@bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com> > The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which > goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. > > --tom DEC docs older than that used the Ascii Arrow which was replaced on keyboards at a later date by the carrot. Bill From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 10:53:22 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: The Pros and Cons of Dumps! Re: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: References: <3B7100B7.AF6D9961@aconit.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809114806.01d2cc60@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:02 PM 8/8/01 +0100, you wrote: > > > Coins have value even to idiots, where old chips can reach a point > > > where typical people will decide there value is less than storage > > > cost and into the trash it goes. > > > > But that does not destroy them, just more difficult to locate. > >Do you honestly think that the average garbage dump is even close to >being an anti-static environment? Actually yes. All the ones that I've seen are dripping with moisture. Besides the fact that cases, garbage, newspaper and the like holds moisture extremely well, they also spray the area with water to keep down the dust that's stirred up by the heavy trucks and other machinery. Everything so damp that I don't expect that steel and the like would last very long there. I expect static would be the least of the problems with anything gathered from a dump! Joe >-tony From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 11:01:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF07F9DE94@msx1.cboe.com> Message-ID: <01Aug9.120927edt.119058@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Wordstar was originally created for CP/M but I'm not sure just how far back it goes. The earliest Wordstar disks I still have for CP/M are for the Osborne 1. I don't recall if the key commands were consistent through it's history and across platforms either. Jeff on 8/9/01 11:33 AM, Rob Kapteyn at kapteynr@cboe.com wrote: > I don't have the detailed history available to me now, > but -- > didn't WordStar run under CP/M long before MS-DOS was created ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Master of all that Sucks [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:56 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: an odd question > > > Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. > > Peace... Sridhar From hansp at aconit.org Thu Aug 9 11:00:59 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010809101658.00e637c0@pc> Message-ID: <3B72B3BB.1F7D69D5@aconit.org> John Foust wrote: > I sent a note to Tom Jennings about this. Perhaps > he has an answer. For his delightfully detailed history of > character sets, visit http://www.wps.com/texts/codes/index.html . This is what makes this list so fascinating. The members have such a wealth of interesting links which are difficult to find otherwise. Two in one day is execptional, the other was the 10 commandments of C programming (well not alink, but suficient of a reference to locate it). Thank you, it makes the time spent panning well worth it when the nuggets appear. -- HBP From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Aug 9 11:03:36 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010809094225.009ada10@ubanproductions.com> from Tom Uban at "Aug 9, 2001 09:42:25 am" Message-ID: <20010809160342Z576366-9215+1285@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which > goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. > > --tom This is the first time that I recall seeing it as well, but I got the impression that Unix borrowed the ^ notation from somewhere else. Maybe it was Multics or one of the other earlier operating systems. The early Unix documentation seemed to treat using the ^ notation as a standard practice, maybe it was a Bell Lab internal practice. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:47 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: an odd question > > > > > > not sure if this is exactly on-topic, but I figure if anyone > > would know, it > > would be this bunch... where did the convention of using > > "^x" to represent > > "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention > > everywhere, but > > it's totally non-intuitave -- i.e. why does the carat symbol > > mean "hold control > > while pressing the following key"? I think this came up > > because someone > > pointed out that using pine the first time was really hard > > until they figured > > out what "^" meant. so, anyone know where that convention came from? > > > > - Dan Wright > > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > > > -] ------------------------------ [-] > > -------------------------------- [- > > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with > > holy dread, > > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 11:06:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809112853.01d27cf0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <01Aug9.121414edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/9/01 11:31 AM, joe at rigdonj@intellistar.net wrote: > Thanks for the offer but the 150 and higher models are completely > different machines from the Z-100. They use the ISA buss and are 100% IBM > compatible so the OS is basicly PC DOS. I did have a Z-100 that could run standard versions of MS/PC-DOS though because of the Gemini daughtercard installed on the mainboard. Another interesting thing is that the DOS 2.X I have from Zenith lists it as being for the 'Z-100 series', which could be taken to include the Z-150. Jeff From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 9 11:11:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; > >I can probably scare it up... > > > Thanks for the offer but the 150 and higher models are completely > different machines from the Z-100. They use the ISA buss and are 100% IBM > compatible so the OS is basicly PC DOS. They're not *quite* 100% IBM compatible, e.g. power supply, and non- Zenith keyboard use eventually causes the CPU board to no longer recognize a Zenith keyboard. But that would be picking nits... -dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 11:18:28 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: OT: Need "Copy Exec" ... anybody hear of this? In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c1202c$982e3720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809121724.01d32ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:13 AM 8/8/01 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Years ago I participated in a beta test program of Seagate's, for a > > product that later became "Direct Tape Access," which is a program > > that allows you to have a tape drive masquerade as a disk drive under > > Windows. This worked fairly well, though it had some weaknesses. > > Later, after the BETA testing had been completed, and after the first > > release, of which I got a copy from Seagate, they released a version > > that included another utility, which I also BETA tested as "Gecko" > > (misspelled, but ... THEY spelled it like that.) but which was > > incorporated in DTA as "Copy Exec," which enabled Drag-n-Drop from one > > part of the system tree to another. > > > > Does anybody have a copy of that that they'd care to share? It's no > > longer available from Seagate or from Veritas, which got all the > > Seagate Backup software when it was spun off. > >Yes, I installed this software for my friend's business. I can get a copy >of it next time I'm there (sometime in the next couple weeks). Shoot me >your address and I'll mail it to you gratis (I promise it won't explode >when you open it ;) Watch out Dick! The package will probably be filled with molten steel! :-) Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 9 11:28:19 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: ASCII arrow... (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108091558.f79FwIH10979@bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010809094225.009ada10@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010809122819.0190d790@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bill Pechter may have mentioned these words: >DEC docs older than that used the Ascii Arrow which was replaced on >keyboards at a later date by the carrot. Awrighty... It seems that this is "classic computing character week..." ;-) let's spin off another weird thread: What was the *newest* (classic) machine that used the arrow, instead of (or in place of) the caret? The newest one I can think of is the Tandy Color Computer 2. (the 3 might have used it on the 32x16 screen, but the 40/80 character modes changed it to the caret...) Just another spin, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 9 11:26:01 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. "Everybody" was doing it long before EITHER. But, ... how could MS-DOS 1.00 (August 4 or 11, 1981) do it "long before" Wordstar, which was running under CP/M for many years before the existence of MS-DOS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Aug 9 11:08:08 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: joe's message of "Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:47:05 -0400" References: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010809114536.01d2a720@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200108091608.f79G88N22032@daemonweed.reanimators.org> joe wrote (after someone else): > > > Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely *die* > > > if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! > > Rumor has it that Steve is going to bring his AT&T 3B2s to the junk > fest in Orlando. I think they have 32k CPUs. No, they have Western Electric...umm, 32100? processors. Not National Semi. -Frank McConnell From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 11:38:09 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <01Aug9.121414edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809112853.01d27cf0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809123332.01d33980@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:06 PM 8/9/01 -0400, Jeff wrote: > I did have a Z-100 that could run standard versions of MS/PC-DOS though >because of the Gemini daughtercard installed on the mainboard. Do you still have the Gemini card? are you interested in parting with it? I have two working Z-100s here. > Another >interesting thing is that the DOS 2.X I have from Zenith lists it as being >for the 'Z-100 series', which could be taken to include the Z-150. Not if you're familar with how Zenith named the software. "Z-100 series" meant the Z-120, 121, etc which were the actual model numbers of the s-100 based systems. "Z-100 PC series" refererred to the IBM compatible machines (Z-150s, 158, 161, etc). Confusing isn't it? Joe > Jeff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 11:43:12 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <200108091608.f79G88N22032@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <20010808.103711.395.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010809114536.01d2a720@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809124141.00ab5540@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:08 AM 8/9/01 -0700, Frank wrote: > > > > Rumor has it that Steve is going to bring his AT&T 3B2s to the junk > > fest in Orlando. I think they have 32k CPUs. > >No, they have Western Electric...umm, 32100? processors. Not >National Semi. Oh, ok. I remembered that they were 32 something something something but I couldn't remember they exact number. Thanks, Joe >-Frank McConnell From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 11:58:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01Aug9.130710edt.119080@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/9/01 12:26 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) at cisin@xenosoft.com wrote: > On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: >> Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. > > "Everybody" was doing it long before EITHER. Ah, but I tossed Wordstar out there as a known example of it's use at least as far back as some of the early micro's. I had no doubt that some of the mainframe and mini types could come up with even earlier instances of it's use Jeff From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Aug 9 12:33:08 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D3E@BUSH02> would be this bunch... where did the convention of using "^x" to represent "Ctrl-x" come from? I wonder because you see that convention everywhere, but I don't know where it started but when I was in school, a while ago now, we had a teletype and a dial up to the local university to, I think, a PDP11. Anyway backspace was always echoed as ^h and break as ^c. I don't recall ever seeing any other control codes printed and some weren't. Control G would ring the bell, a real one - not a bleep, for instance. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 9 12:31:48 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market on 8/19? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010809113854.029d19b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> References: <20010809150246.9993.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010809123148.009ca7b0@ubanproductions.com> As far as I know, it should be happening. I used to live out that way, but don't anymore, so I have to rely on my friend to shop for me:-) As far as directions, it is in a parking garage and associated lot. As I recall, it was off something like Main Street and Ames (or there abouts), down around Kendall Square. >From Nashua, you probably want to take 93 into Cambridge and get off on McGrath Hwy (28) or possibly take 93 to Boston Memorial Drive and go back over the Longfellow bridge to Cambridge. I sent email to my friend to see if he knows the exact address -- if he replies, I will forward it... --tom At 11:44 AM 8/9/01 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone know if there'll be an MIT flea market on August 19th? I'll be >in the Boston area on business from the 12th to the 23rd and thought I'd do >some scroungin' over the weekend. If it's on, I could also use fairly >precise directions. I'll be staying in Nashua, NH -- down the street from >ZKO from the DEC folks in the group -- I'm pretty familiar with the general >area, but don't really know my way around Cambridge. > >-- Tony > > > From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 9 11:36:17 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B72B3BB.1F7D69D5@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > This is what makes this list so fascinating. The members have such a > wealth of interesting links which are difficult to find otherwise. Two > in one day is execptional, the other was the 10 commandments of C > programming (well not alink, but suficient of a reference to locate > it). Heck, if you want links, just go to the VCF Link Library: http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/links.pl 1,215 links (although there are stale links...I have to do some long overdue maintenance and set up an automated process to cull dead links). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 9 13:17:03 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:12 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market on 8/19? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010809113854.029d19b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> References: <20010809150246.9993.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010809131703.009bfa80@ubanproductions.com> Correction, the MIT flee is at the corner of Main and Albany Streets. --tom From bills at adrenaline.com Thu Aug 9 13:49:28 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Wanted ASR-33 in Washington DC area Message-ID: Since this tactic seems to have worked for Kent Borg in Boston... I'd really like to get an ASR-33 myself, as that was my first encounter with a computer. I've tried a number of hamfests etc. ... no dice. I have a fair collection of "vintage" hardware... I might even consider parting with a few bits of OSI gear. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 9 14:45:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108091555.f79Ftj510921@bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I don't have the detailed history available to me now, > > but -- > > didn't WordStar run under CP/M long before MS-DOS was created ? > > > Hell yes... WordStar dates back to the late '70's > > http://www.petrie.u-net.com/wordstar/history/history.htm. > > Bill And WordMaster carried the same notation prior to WordStar. I have v1.07 and it carries a (C)1978. - don From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 9 15:04:24 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: PDP11 ME11-L board locations ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010809131703.009bfa80@ubanproductions.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010809113854.029d19b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> <20010809150246.9993.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010809150424.009734b0@ubanproductions.com> Hello, I have a ME11-L backplane and two sets of core memory board, but I am unable to locate a document indicating the board locations. The boards are: G110, G231, and H214 (two sets) Can someone please lookup (or point me to an online document) which boards go into which slots? --tnx --tom From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 15:20:15 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809123332.01d33980@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809112853.01d27cf0@mailhost.intellistar.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010809123332.01d33980@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >At 12:06 PM 8/9/01 -0400, Jeff wrote: > >> I did have a Z-100 that could run standard versions of MS/PC-DOS though >>because of the Gemini daughtercard installed on the mainboard. > > Do you still have the Gemini card? are you interested in >parting with it? I have two working Z-100s here. Sorry Joe, the Gemini went with the Z-100 when I gave it to someone else. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 09:34:50 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <200108090128.SAA11920@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <995.621T2500T9346537optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> >Check out the Commodore being built with almost no original silicon... >> >http://www.geocities.com/cm_easy >> >> Why? It seems quite pointless, nearly tasteless, what with the VGA monitor. >Because it allows us to still be using Commodores and hopefully repair any >future problems with open-source, current technology. It's not merely a >modern C64 anyway; it has a '816 core, SDRAM controller, SVGA output and >she's even talking Ethernet in the spec. The day when sourcing a C64 becomes difficult is the day when finding VGA monitors will be equally difficult. Besides, the way most C64 people use their C64s is very dependent on all manners of hardware "features" which would make any simulation quite a difficult task to accomplish. OTOH, if you regard it as a new 65816 computer (which may happen to be C64 compatible in some ways), it doesn't seem to bad. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 9 17:33:26 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010809160342Z576366-9215+1285@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Aug 09, 2001 10:03:36 AM Message-ID: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mark Green once stated: > > > The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which > > goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. > > > > --tom > > This is the first time that I recall seeing it as well, but I got > the impression that Unix borrowed the ^ notation from somewhere else. > Maybe it was Multics or one of the other earlier operating systems. > The early Unix documentation seemed to treat using the ^ notation > as a standard practice, maybe it was a Bell Lab internal practice. The ^ was used on early shells as an alternative to the | character (and this works under Xenix on the Tandy-6000). I don't think it's supported anymore (much like @ to erase a line is no longer used). -spc (Gah! Why do I remember this stuff? 8-) From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Thu Aug 9 17:43:12 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; > > >I can probably scare it up... > > > > > > Thanks for the offer but the 150 and higher models are completely > > different machines from the Z-100. They use the ISA buss and are 100% IBM > > compatible so the OS is basicly PC DOS. > > They're not *quite* 100% IBM compatible, e.g. power supply, and non- > Zenith keyboard use eventually causes the CPU board to no longer > recognize a Zenith keyboard. Eventually? I don't really know anything about these systems, but it seems strange that something like that would happen only after a while of such use. Maybe it draws more power and eventually burns out components? Please elaborate. :-) -Rob > > But that would be picking nits... > -dq > From red at bears.org Thu Aug 9 17:46:01 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: 3270 emulation hardware Message-ID: Hi; I have a few IBM 3270 emulation cards which sport BNC cable attachments. What cabling standard does this describe, and how can I connect it to my existing twinaxial cable plant? ok r. From csclement at mediaone.net Thu Aug 9 17:46:22 2001 From: csclement at mediaone.net (csclement) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: IBM SIMMS question Message-ID: <000601c12125$20c59210$6501a8c0@chris> p/n 68x6356 is a 32mbsimm that is all i know it isnot 4mb according to where i confirmed -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010809/cbfdf0e5/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 15:38:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <454.621T2400T1116321optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 9, 1 01:51:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 675 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010809/4f822eb1/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Thu Aug 9 18:00:26 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Does anyone have an Exidy Sorcerer 2? In-Reply-To: <20010809150246.9993.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <200108092300.TAA06089@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Does anyone have an Exidy Sorcerer 2? The reason I ask, is I need to know about modifications to the PCB that don't show on the schematics. Specifically, there is some rewiring in the Reset circuitry on my computer, which of course deviates from the schematics and which I have no way of verifying. I would like to know if this is factory or post-factory, or standard or non-standard, or at least correctly done. Anyone have one to look at? Thanks, Louis From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 9 18:23:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question Message-ID: <002c01c1212a$487bcae0$7c749a8d@ajp166> The ^mumble predates micros. I remember using ^O, ^S and ^X for PDP-8 in '69 and the notation was existant then. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:52 PM Subject: ^X (was: an odd question >On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: >> Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. > >"Everybody" was doing it long before EITHER. > >But, ... how could MS-DOS 1.00 (August 4 or 11, 1981) do it "long before" >Wordstar, which was running under CP/M for many years before the existence >of MS-DOS? > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 19:02:37 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809200054.00acdc40@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:43 PM 8/9/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; > > > >I can probably scare it up... > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the offer but the 150 and higher models are completely > > > different machines from the Z-100. They use the ISA buss and are 100% IBM > > > compatible so the OS is basicly PC DOS. > > > > They're not *quite* 100% IBM compatible, e.g. power supply, and non- > > Zenith keyboard use eventually causes the CPU board to no longer > > recognize a Zenith keyboard. > >Eventually? I don't really know anything about these systems, but it seems >strange that something like that would happen only after a while of such >use. Maybe it draws more power and eventually burns out components? Please >elaborate. :-) I don't know anything about the "eventually" part but there are some differences in the keys on the Z-100 and PC keyboards and the differences can cause problems with some applications. joe >-Rob > > > > > But that would be picking nits... > > -dq > > From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 18:44:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108091558.f79FwIH10979@bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <428.622T2400T446217optimus@canit.se> Bill Pechter skrev: >> The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which >> goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. >DEC docs older than that used the Ascii Arrow which was replaced on >keyboards at a later date by the carrot. Arrow? Carrot? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 18:47:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: ASCII arrow... (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010809122819.0190d790@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <493.622T2750T476827optimus@canit.se> Roger Merchberger skrev: >What was the *newest* (classic) machine that used the arrow, instead of (or >in place of) the caret? The C64 (and all subsequent compatibles, such as the C128) had two arrows, one pointing upward and one pointing to the right. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Zeit kommt aus der Zukunft, die nicht existiert, in die Gegenwart, die keine Dauer hat, und geht in die Vergangenheit, die aufgeh?rt hat, zu bestehen. --- Augustinus (R?m. Kirchenlehrer, 354-430 n. Chr.) From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 20:07:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Desperately looking for an X11 server for Inmos G300-based boards In-Reply-To: <3B729C26.6097EE4D@olf.com> Message-ID: <696.622T1650T1275515optimus@canit.se> Ram Meenakshisundaram skrev: >PS: I think the Amiga Visiona used the IMSG33x chipset, so that might help. The Inmos G300 GaAS, according to http://www.amiga-hardware.com/. Lovely specs, that pixelclock is absurdly flexible. =) There's also the Rainbow III which uses the "Inmos G360 or G364G-10S or G365 CLT-RAMDAC" (you can see that I'm just cutting and pasting =). If you try to talk to Frank Mariak or some other CyberGFX (http://www.vgr.com/) developer, you just might gain some info. The same people once developed the Visiona software and have recently added support for the Rainbow. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 19:14:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: <200108091608.f79G88N22032@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <764.622T100T744237optimus@canit.se> Frank McConnell skrev: >joe wrote (after someone else): >> > > Stoppit! Stoppit! I can't take this anymore!! I'm gonna absolutely >> > > *die* if I hear about another 32k system *tossed*! >> >> Rumor has it that Steve is going to bring his AT&T 3B2s to the junk >> fest in Orlando. I think they have 32k CPUs. >No, they have Western Electric...umm, 32100? processors. Not >National Semi. What a shame, I can't find the 32100 in the otherwise great "Great microprocessors of the past and present" (http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/jbayko/cpu.html). How about an introduction? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 19:25:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D3E@BUSH02> Message-ID: <546.622T2450T855715optimus@canit.se> Davison, Lee skrev: >Control G would ring the bell, a real one - not a bleep, for instance. Absolutely lovely! With a properly programmed text editor, that would certainly heighten the sense of using an old-fashioned mechanical typewriter. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga IFF (8SVX): This is the dominant [sound] format on the Commodore Amiga platform. It can specify an arbitray sampling rate but ony supports mono 8-bit sounds. It also supports a 2-to-1 lossy compression format which uses a unique Fibonacci-delta compression algorithm. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 19:07:18 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <002c01c1212a$487bcae0$7c749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809200304.00acb820@mailhost.intellistar.net> I may be wrong but didn't the use of Control and a key begin with teletypes and long before the arrival of computers? I know the control something was used to ring the bell on the recieving system. Control something else generated the DC 1 and DC 2 codes that could be used to switch off and on special devices on the recieving system. Joe At 07:23 PM 8/9/01 -0400, you wrote: >The ^mumble predates micros. I remember using ^O, ^S and ^X for >PDP-8 in '69 and the notation was existant then. > >Allison > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:52 PM >Subject: ^X (was: an odd question > > > >On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > >> Well, MS-DOS 1.0 was doing it long before WordStar. > > > >"Everybody" was doing it long before EITHER. > > > >But, ... how could MS-DOS 1.00 (August 4 or 11, 1981) do it "long >before" > >Wordstar, which was running under CP/M for many years before the >existence > >of MS-DOS? > > > >-- > >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 19:29:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <546.622T2450T855715optimus@canit.se> References: <546.622T2450T855715optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Absolutely lovely! With a properly programmed text editor, that would >certainly heighten the sense of using an old-fashioned mechanical typewriter. I've a couple of text editors and word processors over the years that mimicked the sounds of a typewriter. I believe the ROM based word processor on the Coleco Adam does it and I seem to recall a program for the Amiga that did it as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 9 19:26:35 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <001d01c1206c$12d091a0$0264640a@frontiernet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809202229.00acc600@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:41 PM 8/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >No No Noooo.... >I'll be in the Tampa and orlando area from the 20 th until Labor Day I'd >hate to miss such an event. >Or can I get a preview ;) >Francois I don't know about a preview. Most of the guys are from out of town so you can't see their stuff. A couple of us live in Orlando (and Louis lives in Tampa) but my stuff is scattered over three or four different places so viewing it would be difficult. But tell me what you're looking for and I'll see what I have. Do you know what your schedule will be yet? I can show you a couple of GOOD scrounging places. Joe >----- Original Message ----- >From: "joe" >To: "classiccmp-classiccmp.org" >Cc: "Glenatacme-aol.com" ; "Mike Haas <"Mike"" >; "musicman38-mindspring.com" > >Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 6:15 AM >Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! > > > > > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > > > OK. How many of you live within driving distance of central > > Florida? Steve and I want to have a junk fest and clear out some of our > > unused junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, hidden treasures. Steve suggested that we > > have it on Sept 8th. > > > > Interested? > > > > Joe > > > > >See ya, SteveRob > > X-Originating-IP: [63.68.245.221] > > From: "Steve Robertson" > > To: rigdonj@intellistar.net > > Bcc: > > Subject: Re: Hey Dude! > > Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:46:55 -0400 > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > Message-ID: > > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2001 20:46:56.0050 (UTC) > > FILETIME=[18828120:01C11F82] > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > Let me know what you're getting rid of. You may have something that >I > > > can't live without! > > > > > > > Don't pitch the Kaypros. I gave away all the ones that I had but now > > > I've picked up a Kaypro 2 and I'm sort of attached to it. Do >you have > > > any docs or anything for them? > > > > Actually the KPs are pretty neat little boxes and I really didn't want to > > toss them. Just want to get some of them outta my way. I do have some of > > the original DOCs. Nothing technical though. Basic operators manuals, > > wordstar manuals, CPM manuals, Cbasic manuals, etc... I'll throw 'em in > > the truck when I come up. > > > > I've got some software here... Somewhere... It may take me a while to drag > > up it up. I'm sure if nothing else, Don Maslin or someone else on the CC > > list could provide a boot disk. Everything else can be downloaded from the > > CC archives. > > > > >Mike, Bob or Glen might want it, Bob and Glen are here in town. Hmm. I > > >was just thinking, we should try to get everyone together and > > >have a mini-swap meet. Besides you and me, Bob and Glen live here in town > > >and Mike lives in S. Georgia and Phil lives near Naples and I think > > >there's at least one other guy that lives near Tampa. > > > > I think that would be great. Maybe we could do it on Saturday Sept 8th. > > Everyone can throw their junk in their vehicles and we'll fight over it. > > Anything that doesn't get claimed, can live with you :-) > > > > > Can you tell me more about the 6800 box? > > > > > >Well... Put it this way... It's got Dual 8" floppies and total of 4K RAM. > > >The OS is just a "monitor" program. I also have a complete accounting > > >package with it but never really tried to make it do anything... It was > > >interfaced to antique DIABLO keyboard / printer. Let me tell you, this >SOB > > >is primitive! It's probably worth something. I'm just tired of tripping > > >over it. > > > > > >I could also bring a couple of ATT UNIX boxes (wonder where they came > > >from) with all the docs, an ATT 6300, and some other stuff. > > > > > >Why don't you send out an invitation to the "Central Florida Computer >Junk > > >Fest". > > > > > >See ya, SteveRob > > > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Aug 9 19:45:57 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <428.622T2400T446217optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:44:48AM +0100 References: <200108091558.f79FwIH10979@bg-tc-ppp1414.monmouth.com> <428.622T2400T446217optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010809174555.A24651@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:44:48AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Bill Pechter skrev: > >> The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which > >> goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. > > >DEC docs older than that used the Ascii Arrow which was replaced on > >keyboards at a later date by the carrot. > > Arrow? Carrot? Bill (who should have written "caret") means that in the version of ASCII used before the current version, the ^ was an arrow pointing upward. Also the _ was an arrow pointing leftward. There are still older versions of ASCII, but that's another story. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 9 20:05:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question Message-ID: <006701c12138$fd5a6710$7c749a8d@ajp166> From: joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >I may be wrong but didn't the use of Control and a key begin with teletypes >and long before the arrival of computers? I know the control something was >used to ring the bell on the recieving system. Control something else Ding ding ding, you win. ^G rings the bell. However the original question was the notion of "Control and G" keys contracted to CTRL-G (tty nomenclature) to ^G. >generated the DC 1 and DC 2 codes that could be used to switch off and on >special devices on the recieving system. That too. Actually there were some 32 possible control codes, many were used. FYI that PDP-8 was an i version and the console was a tty! Allison From ip500 at home.com Thu Aug 9 20:06:51 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: LISP machine for sale Message-ID: <3B7333AB.28326D97@home.com> Anyone interested in a TI Explorer II machine? It's complete and running .. includes the keyboard [marked as a special LISP model], monitor and two outboard disk drives. Way to heavy to ship at a reasonable price [but it is probably shippable] .. pickup strongly prefered in the Roanoke, VA area. It came as part of a sealed bid lot ..I figure I've got about $100 in it. Craig Smith From pechter at bg-tc-ppp888.monmouth.com Thu Aug 9 20:02:24 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp888.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010809174555.A24651@eskimo.eskimo.com> from Derek Peschel at "Aug 9, 2001 05:45:57 pm" Message-ID: <200108100102.f7A12OJ13018@bg-tc-ppp888.monmouth.com> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:44:48AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Bill Pechter skrev: > > > >> The unix shell has used the ^C nomenclature since I can remember, which > > >> goes back to version 6 on PDP 11s. > > > > >DEC docs older than that used the Ascii Arrow which was replaced on > > >keyboards at a later date by the carrot. > > > > Arrow? Carrot? > > Bill (who should have written "caret") means that in the version of ASCII > used before the current version, the ^ was an arrow pointing upward. > Also the _ was an arrow pointing leftward. > > There are still older versions of ASCII, but that's another story. That's what I get for posting before coffee... Caret... yeah... that's the word. Been a long time since teletypes with the arrow... saw my last one about 15 years ago... loading a PDP8E from paper tape. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 9 20:46:09 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <006701c12138$fd5a6710$7c749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200108100146.UAA12417@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Ding ding ding, you win. ^G rings the bell. However the original > question > was the notion of "Control and G" keys contracted to CTRL-G (tty > nomenclature) > to ^G. > I always assumed it had to do with 6-bit character set implementations. On the CDC Cybers, which used a 6-bit character set, the peripheral processors could be switched to a 7-bit mode, where lowercase characters were translated into those 2-character sequences, and vice-versa. I cant recall the exact scheme, but i seem to recall 2 different prefix characters being used... Anyways, as i say i cant recall the Cyber character set... but it was something like ^A would be translated to a lowercase a, and the ^ sort of switched bit 7 on (or xored it, or however you want to think of it). And if you think of the ASCII character set, ^A would be a control-A if bit 7 was switched from the capital A character. and referring to ^a instead of ^A would normally be a mistake made by people who dont realize that lowercase is inherently inferior ;) Thats my theory. -Lawrence LeMay From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Aug 9 21:04:04 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: LISP machine for sale In-Reply-To: <3B7333AB.28326D97@home.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010809220347.029def18@mail.njd.concentric.com> Craig - Gotten any offers yet? If not, I'd like to snag it! -- Tony At 09:06 PM 8/9/2001 -0400, you wrote: > Anyone interested in a TI Explorer II machine? It's complete and >running .. includes the keyboard [marked as a special LISP model], >monitor and two outboard disk drives. Way to heavy to ship at a >reasonable price >[but it is probably shippable] .. pickup strongly prefered in the >Roanoke, VA area. It came as part of a sealed bid lot ..I figure I've >got about $100 in it. > Craig Smith From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Aug 9 21:13:20 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108100146.UAA12417@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Aug 9, 2001 08:46:09 pm" Message-ID: <20010810021326Z576566-21321+268@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > > > > Ding ding ding, you win. ^G rings the bell. However the original > > question > > was the notion of "Control and G" keys contracted to CTRL-G (tty > > nomenclature) > > to ^G. > > > > I always assumed it had to do with 6-bit character set implementations. > > On the CDC Cybers, which used a 6-bit character set, the peripheral > processors could be switched to a 7-bit mode, where lowercase > characters were translated into those 2-character sequences, and > vice-versa. I cant recall the exact scheme, but i seem to recall > 2 different prefix characters being used... > > Anyways, as i say i cant recall the Cyber character set... but it was > something like ^A would be translated to a lowercase a, and the ^ > sort of switched bit 7 on (or xored it, or however you want to > think of it). And if you think of the ASCII character set, ^A would > be a control-A if bit 7 was switched from the capital A character. > and referring to ^a instead of ^A would normally be a mistake made > by people who dont realize that lowercase is inherently inferior ;) > The CDC Cyber series had many different character sets, which was a major pain in the ass for anyone maintaining software for them. I spent several years working on the Pascal compiler for the CDC machines (the orignal implementation from ETH). The initial character sets had 63 characters with 0 reserved for end of line. Later they moved to 64 characters, with zero being :. The made the end of line (remember this was the days of punched cards and line printers) marker very complicated. It was two or more zero characters that appeared at the end of a word (60 bit words, 10 characters per word). End of line testing was a real pain. Later they switched to a mixed 6 bit / 12 bit character scheme that made life even more complex. Determining the length of a string (in characters) involved interpreting each character in the string, you couldn't simply look at the amount of memory used. I spent many pleasant (and not so pleasant at times) years doing systems programming on those machines. The real scary thing is I still remember details of it, even after 25 years. From arthur.clark3 at verizon.net Thu Aug 9 21:13:32 2001 From: arthur.clark3 at verizon.net (Arthur E. Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <3B7042F7.5BECEF1F@greenbelt.com> References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Well, I checked out my local Goodwill stores. What a waste. When I asked about old Apples, the computer supervisor said "we refuse those." When I asked about Sun and DEC, they looked at me like I was speaking an alien language. A few extremely overpriced 486 & Pentium 75 systems, that's it. Other than the huge box of old cards that I sorted through. Nothing of note except for a whole slew of 3Com and IBM brand Token ring cards (all say "4/16") and one Kingston KTC-9160 eight slot memory expansion board. If anyone wants any of these email me. Arthur Clark From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 21:27:16 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: My local Goodwill (Arthur E. Clark) References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <15219.18052.264503.533822@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 9, Arthur E. Clark wrote: > Well, I checked out my local Goodwill stores. What a waste. When I asked > about old Apples, the computer supervisor said "we refuse those." When I > asked about Sun and DEC, they looked at me like I was speaking an alien > language. A few extremely overpriced 486 & Pentium 75 systems, that's it. Here's an idea. Maybe it would be useful for some of us to leave our contact info with these places, so when they "refuse" decent stuff, they can say "but there's this person here who might be interested..." What do you think? (They refuse (or don't know anything about) the real computers and redistribute the crappy ones. Go figure.) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From fdebros at verizon.net Thu Aug 9 21:38:17 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market on 8/19? References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com><200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010809113854.029d19b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <005501c12145$8366ffb0$6701a8c0@fred> Yes Get out at the Leverett circle direction Storrow drive/MGH. and the SaltAndPepper bridge. Get off Storrow drive towards MGH (exit ramp on left lane! crazy!), before you pass under the T, take a right towards Cambridge , over that bridge straight all the way 1 mi or so, Cambridge Marriott to your left until u hit the Draper Labs bridge over the traffic lane Easily recognized. Just before that , before u cross the rails, at the light, take a left to the next light, then a right: Ur there. Look for chubby guys geekily dressed schlepping what looks like the remainders of a carwreck, and junky cars with crazy antennae on their roofs. Fred From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 9 21:44:34 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: LISP machine for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Aug 2001 21:06:51 -0400 . <3B7333AB.28326D97@home.com> Message-ID: In message <3B7333AB.28326D97@home.com>, Craig Smith writes: > Anyone interested in a TI Explorer II machine? It's complete and >running .. includes the keyboard [marked as a special LISP model], >monitor and two outboard disk drives. Way to heavy to ship at a >reasonable price >[but it is probably shippable] .. pickup strongly prefered in the >Roanoke, VA area. It came as part of a sealed bid lot ..I figure I've >got about $100 in it. Craig, I'm definitely interested. Unfortunately, it would mean shipping it and I certainly understand your desire to have it picked up. However, if you don't get any takers locally, I'll be interested in taking it off your hands. As to the shipping, I work for FedEx and can get send you a pre-filled airbill that'll bill the shipping directly to me. By the way, how heavy is it? Thanks, Brian L. Stuart From ip500 at home.com Thu Aug 9 21:54:23 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: LISP machine for sale References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010809220347.029def18@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <3B734CDF.9CF11E00@home.com> Hi Tony, Actually, you're #2 but the other expressed interest was in Canada!! A bit tough to ship. As it happens, I'm headed up to Rochester at te end of the month and will be again passing thru Harrisburg if that would work for you. At this point it looks like either 9/2 or 9/3 for a transit time. Craig Tony Eros wrote: > > Craig - > > Gotten any offers yet? If not, I'd like to snag it! > > -- Tony > > At 09:06 PM 8/9/2001 -0400, you wrote: > > Anyone interested in a TI Explorer II machine? It's complete and > >running .. includes the keyboard [marked as a special LISP model], > >monitor and two outboard disk drives. Way to heavy to ship at a > >reasonable price > >[but it is probably shippable] .. pickup strongly prefered in the > >Roanoke, VA area. It came as part of a sealed bid lot ..I figure I've > >got about $100 in it. > > Craig Smith From ip500 at home.com Thu Aug 9 21:57:40 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: LISP machine is GONE Message-ID: <3B734DA4.70A31F43@home.com> A semi-local list member snagged it tonight. Going to a good home! Craig From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Aug 9 20:49:31 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you find at home) In-Reply-To: <20010809150121.9987.qmail@mail.seefried.com> References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010809214931.01f2028c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:01 PM 8/9/01 GMT, you wrote: >> "He who doesn't comprehend UNIX is destined to redesign it poorly." >> Does anybody know the origin of this quote? > >Henry Spencer. He also said "If you lie to the compiler, it will get its >revenge", which I think is pretty funny, too. Oh, yeah...and his 10 >Commandments of C Programmers is gospel. Helluva guy. Thanks Ken! Zane: Yes, it is true that many people think that modern OS's should follow Unix' path. I'll agree with you in that Unix is not the only sensible model, and I'll even concede that OpenVMS is another such model. But you'll have to work to persuade me that DCL is cool. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dittman at dittman.net Thu Aug 9 22:31:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: from "Carlos Murillo" at Aug 09, 2001 09:49:31 PM Message-ID: <200108100331.f7A3Vgp08343@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Zane: Yes, it is true that many people think that modern OS's should > follow Unix' path. I'll agree with you in that Unix is not the only > sensible model, and I'll even concede that OpenVMS is another such > model. But you'll have to work to persuade me that DCL is cool. DCL is a very complete command language. There's a lot that can be done directly that require external programs in Unix shells. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From chobbs at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 9 22:29:12 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: LA Times articles about the PC's 20th birthday References: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> Message-ID: <3B735508.7DF0AAD9@socal.rr.com> http://www.latimes.com/technology/columnists/techcol/la-000064606aug09.story Of course they mean the *IBM* "PC"...but don't run away yet! http://www.latimes.com/technology/columnists/techcol/la-000064614aug09.story is about collecting old computers (Sellam Ismail gets a quote in this article!) http://www.latimes.com/technology/columnists/techcol/la-000064610aug09.story History of "PC's" from Apples to Acorns http://www.latimes.com/technology/columnists/techcol/la-000064619aug09.story Where do old computers go when they die? They pollute the environment of course! And there are links to similar stuff from the main article... Have fun! From owad at applefritter.com Thu Aug 9 22:40:51 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20010810034051.15679@mail.earthlink.net> >Well, I checked out my local Goodwill stores. What a waste. When I asked >about old Apples, the computer supervisor said "we refuse those." When I >asked about Sun and DEC, they looked at me like I was speaking an alien >language. A few extremely overpriced 486 & Pentium 75 systems, that's it. Which Goodwill is this? (I'm assuming either York or Harrisburg?) About three years ago I got a really nice TI-99/4a with the expansion box and several boxes of books, software, and accessories at the Goodwill in York for around $30, but that was all I ever got there. The Salvation Army in York used to get Apple and 8 bit micro stuff pretty regularly, but now have absolutely nothing worth looking at. There are two Goodwills in Harrisburg that I've been to (both only once). One was pretty poor, but the other might be worth looking at as they had a good shelf of computer books and manuals. (I wish I could remember which store was which.) Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 9 23:33:27 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: UC04 configuration In-Reply-To: <4d7d9537a6.537a64d7d9@ono.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010809213301.01af0020@209.185.79.193> If it works in a vax it should work in a PDP. --Chuck At 11:15 AM 8/9/01 +0200, you wrote: >Hello. Somebody knows how to configure one Emulex UC04 >(with one SCSI disk of 1GB connected) to work in >one PDP-11/23 PLUS ? > >Thanks in advance. > >Greetings and Best Regards from Spain > >Sergio From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Aug 9 23:32:03 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <15219.18052.264503.533822@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3B7363C2.9E50C935@eoni.com> If your Goodwill is anything like my Salvation Army, it's a waste of a good business card. They've been given my card weekly for about six months now with me offering as a volunteer to set up and test any computer equipment that might come through the door and every time I go in it's like they've never seen me before. I've spoken with everyone involved from the 'commander' (and his wife) down to the mentally challenged individual that actually does the stocking and had absolutely no success. This whole exercise in futility started when I found an ADB NeXT keyboard on the shelf. After questioning everyone there, the 'commander' finally admitted that they plug them in and if they don't get a Windows or Mac desktop, into the dumpster it goes. He vaguely remembered busting the black monitor and pitching the slab... Idiots. (the kindest expletive I can use...) Jim Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Here's an idea. Maybe it would be useful for some of us to leave > our contact info with these places, so when they "refuse" decent > stuff, they can say "but there's this person here who might be From lance at costanzo.net Thu Aug 9 23:37:22 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010809213722.007b5520@costanzo.net> At 09:25 AM 8/9/01 -0500, John F wrote: >At 09:15 AM 8/9/01 -0500, Messick, Gary wrote: >>I know some of the older software such as MBASIC for CP/M, and maybe even >>earlier stuff, used to OUTPUT a ^C when the user type a Ctrl-C. > >I remember RSTS timesharing systems doing that >even before CP/M. I thought I remembered it from RSTS/E, and maybe even before that with CDC ITS, but things blend together from those days... It may be a pseudo-mathematical symbolism from some programming languages; 3^2 = 9, i.e. you're raising the C key. (You're bluffing, I'll ^ you 10). From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 9 23:43:30 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010809084704.B4468016@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010809214238.029a4630@209.185.79.193> Well probably ITS, it was standard nomenclature in the TECO docs as well and that predates all PCs. --Chuck At 08:47 AM 8/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > where did the convention of using "^x" to represent >"Ctrl-x" come from? From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 9 22:41:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I've a couple of text editors and word processors over the years > that mimicked the sounds of a typewriter. I believe the ROM based > word processor on the Coleco Adam does it and I seem to recall a > program for the Amiga that did it as well. Bank Street Writer for the Apple ][ had a similarly obnoxious feature. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 9 22:44:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Arthur E. Clark wrote: > Well, I checked out my local Goodwill stores. What a waste. When I > asked about old Apples, the computer supervisor said "we refuse > those." When I asked about Sun and DEC, they looked at me like I was > speaking an alien language. A few extremely overpriced 486 & Pentium > 75 systems, that's it. I don't think in all my days of going to Goodwill I have ever seen anything Sun or DEC there. I do believe those types of items are diverted to depots where they conduct auctions. > Other than the huge box of old cards that I sorted through. Nothing > of note except for a whole slew of 3Com and IBM brand Token ring cards > (all say "4/16") and one Kingston KTC-9160 eight slot memory expansion > board. If anyone wants any of these email me. Goodwills and Salvation Army's are really only good for old (and cheap) computer books. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Aug 9 22:37:40 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: <200108100331.f7A3Vgp08343@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010809233740.01f27224@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:31 PM 8/9/01 -0500, Eric Dittman wrote: >DCL is a very complete command language. There's a lot that can be >done directly that require external programs in Unix shells. I doubt it not. Still, I am yet to be persuaded that it is "cool". Maybe I'll change my mind as I learn more about DCL. For the time being, I'll keep using tcsh on Unix or sh or 4dos on Windoze (yes I use a port of sh for win32), and longing for tcsh in my 4000/60. By the way, I think that requiring external programs in Unix isn't necessarily a disadvantage, as long as such programs are standard in every U'x. And many are, thanks to POSIX. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 9 22:52:41 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <20010810034051.15679@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Tom Owad wrote: > About three years ago I got a really nice TI-99/4a with the expansion > box and several boxes of books, software, and accessories at the > Goodwill in York for around $30, but that was all I ever got there. > > The Salvation Army in York used to get Apple and 8 bit micro stuff > pretty regularly, but now have absolutely nothing worth looking at. > > There are two Goodwills in Harrisburg that I've been to (both only > once). > One was pretty poor, but the other might be worth looking at as they > had a good shelf of computer books and manuals. (I wish I could > remember which store was which.) In my experience, the only thrift stores worth going to for hardware are the chains, like Thrift Town, Thrift Center, etc. At least that is the case here in California and also in Raleigh, NC, where I spent a lot of time a couple years ago. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 23:52:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: Re: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you (Carlos Murillo) References: <3.0.2.32.20010809233740.01f27224@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <15219.26780.444673.317026@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 9, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >DCL is a very complete command language. There's a lot that can be > >done directly that require external programs in Unix shells. ... > By the way, I think that requiring external programs in Unix isn't > necessarily a disadvantage, as long as such programs are standard in > every U'x. And many are, thanks to POSIX. You're not familiar with the overhead associated with fork()/vfork(), are you Carlos. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 9 00:10:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: Message-ID: <3B721B3B.1BC4782D@internet1.net> I got my PDP11 from a Goodwill, but not through the normal channels, and it was from another city (Region even). Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sellam Ismail wrote: > I don't think in all my days of going to Goodwill I have ever seen > anything Sun or DEC there. I do believe those types of items are diverted > to depots where they conduct auctions. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 9 00:15:10 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:13 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3B721C5E.360C3550@internet1.net> Arthur E. Clark wrote: > > Well, I checked out my local Goodwill stores. What a waste. When I asked > about old Apples, the computer supervisor said "we refuse those." Wow, they refuse Apples. My local Goodwill stores sell them pretty cheap normally. I just saw a Platinum //e today, with color monitor and two floppies, for $20, I think. That could have been just for the monitor, but I doubt it. > When I > asked about Sun and DEC, they looked at me like I was speaking an alien > language. A few extremely overpriced 486 & Pentium 75 systems, that's it. Wow, my local Goodwill stores almost never get 486's much less Pentiums. > > Other than the huge box of old cards that I sorted through. Nothing of > note except for a whole slew of 3Com and IBM brand Token ring cards (all > say "4/16") and one Kingston KTC-9160 eight slot memory expansion > board. If anyone wants any of these email me. I don't normally see cards here. I thik cards might get thrown out, if they even get donated. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 10 00:16:39 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: <15219.26780.444673.317026@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 10, 2001 12:52:44 AM Message-ID: <200108100516.BAA07280@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > > On August 9, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > >DCL is a very complete command language. There's a lot that can be > > >done directly that require external programs in Unix shells. > ... > > By the way, I think that requiring external programs in Unix isn't > > necessarily a disadvantage, as long as such programs are standard in > > every U'x. And many are, thanks to POSIX. > > You're not familiar with the overhead associated with fork()/vfork(), > are you Carlos. Depends upon the Unix system. Under Linux, fork() is actually a front end to clone(), which is used to make both threads or processes (and even stuff in between)---it really depends upon what is copied and what is shared between the parent and child. Thread support under Unix (pick your system) is dreadful (and no, pthreads isn't a solution (icky icky p-tang!)). Then again, if it wasn't in Unix V6, then it's not supported well at all! -spc (And can you explain the insanely different command line parameters to ls (typical Unix command line), find and dd? All three, I think are POSIX to some degree 8-) From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 9 00:20:59 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <15219.18052.264503.533822@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3B7363C2.9E50C935@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3B721DBA.AAD1BF9@internet1.net> Jim Arnott wrote: > This whole exercise in futility started when I found an ADB NeXT > keyboard on the shelf. After questioning everyone there, the > 'commander' finally admitted that they plug them in and if they don't > get a Windows or Mac desktop, into the dumpster it goes. He vaguely > remembered busting the black monitor and pitching the slab... Some people..... they just don't understand. If I give something away, it's because I think someone else might like to have it, and I don't need it....... not because it's worthless. If it were worthless I would have thrown it away!! What those people do, is a slap in the face! I rarely go to the local Salvation Army store. The only hardware I have ever seen didn't interest me, and was in pretty bad shape. Last time I was there, they did have some MAC software, which did impress me, but I don't do old Macs, so I passed. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 10 00:19:18 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <15219.18052.264503.533822@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:27:16PM -0400 References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <15219.18052.264503.533822@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010810001918.C2271@mrbill.net> On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:27:16PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Here's an idea. Maybe it would be useful for some of us to leave > our contact info with these places, so when they "refuse" decent > stuff, they can say "but there's this person here who might be > interested..." What do you think? The local goodwill computerworks does (did?) that; they had a Mac SE setup where you could leave your name/email/phone and what you might be interested in. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 10 00:23:54 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:52:41PM -0700 References: <20010810034051.15679@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20010810002354.E2271@mrbill.net> On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:52:41PM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > In my experience, the only thrift stores worth going to for hardware are > the chains, like Thrift Town, Thrift Center, etc. At least that is the > case here in California and also in Raleigh, NC, where I spent a lot of > time a couple years ago. I actually scored a PDP-11/23+ at a St. Vincent De Paul's (I think thats the name of the place) a few years ago here in town. I was looking for vt-compatible ascii dumb terminals; someone said "I think i saw some down there". Went down, they had some Wyse and some VT100s, but they said "if you take those, you have to take this with it" - which was a computer. Had a QIC tape drive and an OEM label, but it turned out to be a BA123 (the "bigger than a PC tower" 19"-rack-on-its-side) enclosure with an 11/23+ in it, and it even booted to RSTS/E. At the time, I was younger, stupider, and gave it away to a kid from UT when I moved and didnt want to hurt my back putting it in the truck. 8-( I think we paid $25 for the whole lot of stuff. I've never seen anything else there other than a lot of computer magazine collections (Sun Expert, etc)... they "spiffied" up and dont carry obscure nifty stuff anymore. 8-( Goodwill varies - i go 2-3 times a week when I can. latest find was a DECserver 90M for $5. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Aug 10 01:03:59 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <995.621T2500T9346537optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Aug 9, 1 03:34:50 pm" Message-ID: <200108100603.XAA11942@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Because it allows us to still be using Commodores and hopefully repair any > >future problems with open-source, current technology. It's not merely a > >modern C64 anyway; it has a '816 core, SDRAM controller, SVGA output and > >she's even talking Ethernet in the spec. > > The day when sourcing a C64 becomes difficult is the day when finding VGA > monitors will be equally difficult. Besides, the way most C64 people use their > C64s is very dependent on all manners of hardware "features" which would make > any simulation quite a difficult task to accomplish. Which she is still attempting to do, and so far with success, even with tricksy things like VIC-II badlines (for the untutored, this is taking advantage of the VIC-II's DMA cycle every eighth raster line and tricking it into new and different behaviours/timing). Besides, I think the coolness factor fits more into this project than the practicality factor, n'est pas? > OTOH, if you regard it as a new 65816 computer (which may happen to be C64 > compatible in some ways), it doesn't seem to bad. It will of course have its own native mode, and at least on the discussion list there are many ideas for a new OS specifically for this native mode as well. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- They make a desert and call it peace. -- Tacitus --------------------------- From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 10 01:45:55 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: UC04 configuration Message-ID: <7481b7218e.7218e7481b@ono.com> > If it works in a vax it should work in a PDP. > --Chuck Yes :-) In fact it does (I think). My problem is that I haven't documentation for this board. The docs related with the UC07-08 appears to be useful, but there is a point where I can't advance. The practical object of study is the installation of Unix 2.11BSD into my PDP-11/23 PLUS. The lights in the board tells me that the disk is being accessed by the Unix Installation Program. But, when I tells Unix to install over ra(0,0,0) device, it takes a little time while the lights in the board bright during a few seconds, an finally... nothing: no lights, etc. The device appears that could be addressable and works in the PDP machine, right, but I'm stopped. I believe it could be neeeded to access some kind of formatting program in the rom of the board. I saw how to do it with one UC07-08 in one Vax environment, but I'll very happy if anybody knows how to manage the UC04 in this way. Thanks and Best Regards Sergio From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 10 02:38:49 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PDP-12s, anyone? Message-ID: <20010810023849.K2271@mrbill.net> I finally found time to start opening up the 3 boxes of DEC docs that were awaiting me (3 more on the way, the guy tells me), and found a treasure trove (well, thats what I called it) of PDP-12 documentation. Looks like a fairly complete set of marketing brochures, specs and options lists, promotional materials, etc. All in that nice green color. Even the DEC warranty/service card that was supposed to be stuck on the back of the machine. Looks like almost-complete (I havent had time to go through them thoroughly) sets of users and system manuals as well. (this is all formerly from the U. of Arizona Medical Center) Once I get this scanned, I'll definitely want these docs to go somewhere that has a (preferrably operational) PDP-12 and will give these docs a good home alongside a machine.. Also have VR14 manual (Megan, i think this was already marked for you? I've got multiple copies now) and a VT50 manual. Two more boxes on my porch to go through, and three more on the way... Will completely catalog and post a list on decdocs.org this weekend. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 10 02:55:22 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes Message-ID: <20010810025522.L2271@mrbill.net> Couldnt sleep, so I dug into the other two boxes. Looks like a complete doc set for at least one version of RSX-11, more MAINDECs, and lots more paper tapes. I've got at least five full translucent blue trays full of various paper tapes at this point. Anybody out there have a paper tape reader, and would be willing to run these through and produce some kind of binary file that would be usable with various software emulators (or useful to someone who wanted to punch their own copies of these tapes)? I dont want them to languish around in my garage when someone somewhere could be putting them to use. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 10 03:01:37 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: Message-ID: <3B7394E1.558F5424@internet1.net> I didn't know chains existed in thrift stores. GoodWill and the Salvation Army is about it around here. There is one more place, but I'm not sure if it still exists. I don't think Goodwill counts as a chain does it? It is run regionally it seems, and each region is quite different, I think. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Seldom Dismal wrote: <---------thats my spell checker :-) > In my experience, the only thrift stores worth going to for hardware are > the chains, like Thrift Town, Thrift Center, etc. At least that is the > case here in California and also in Raleigh, NC, where I spent a lot of > time a couple years ago. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 10 03:05:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: <20010810034051.15679@mail.earthlink.net> <20010810002354.E2271@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3B7395CC.D50BD999@internet1.net> Haha, now i don't feel so bad about going once or twice a week. I always feel like such a dork going in, not seeing anything, walking back out with no purchase, then doing it again later that week. I figure the employees gota be wondering what this bozo is doing :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Bill Bradford wrote: > Goodwill varies - i go 2-3 times a week when I can. latest find was > a DECserver 90M for $5. > > Bill From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 10 03:34:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" "Re: an odd question" (Aug 9, 18:33) References: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> Message-ID: <10108100934.ZM7164@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 9, 18:33, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > The ^ was used on early shells as an alternative to the | character (and > this works under Xenix on the Tandy-6000). I don't think it's supported > anymore (much like @ to erase a line is no longer used). ^ as a pipe still works in 'sh' (Bourne shell) but not in 'ksh' (Korn shell). I don't know about 'bash'. @ to erase a line is a different issue; that's a function of stty (the norm these days is ctrl-U), like DEL vs ctrl-C. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 10 03:50:58 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes Message-ID: <7641976b9d.76b9d76419@ono.com> I'd like to work over some of this stuff with the objective you mention, but sadly I haven't (yet) one paper tape reader. Regards Sergio > Anybody out there have a paper tape reader, and would be willing to > run these through and produce some kind of binary file that would be > usable with various software emulators (or useful to someone who > wanted to punch their own copies of these tapes)? I dont want them > to languish around in my garage when someone somewhere could be > puttingthem to use. From pjschilling at gcstech.net Fri Aug 10 05:03:08 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes In-Reply-To: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC670204B611@naomi.gcstech.net> Message-ID: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416EE@naomi.gcstech.net> Bill, I have a tape reader and if you don't mind it taking a little while, I would run those through. I am swamped and may take a couple of weeks to a month to get done. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 2:55 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes Couldnt sleep, so I dug into the other two boxes. Looks like a complete doc set for at least one version of RSX-11, more MAINDECs, and lots more paper tapes. I've got at least five full translucent blue trays full of various paper tapes at this point. Anybody out there have a paper tape reader, and would be willing to run these through and produce some kind of binary file that would be usable with various software emulators (or useful to someone who wanted to punch their own copies of these tapes)? I dont want them to languish around in my garage when someone somewhere could be putting them to use. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Aug 10 06:20:16 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Big Iron Message-ID: <801c681f08.81f08801c6@ono.com> Is there somebody out there with space to get this "microcomputer": http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1625704207 Greetings Sergio From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Aug 10 06:23:01 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill Message-ID: <24.17854d07.28a51e15@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/01 12:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > > Goodwills and Salvation Army's are really only good for old (and cheap) > computer books. > Actually the Salvation Army stores that I have found around PA have been quite good! One can usually find Apple, Tandy, Commodore, and the usual misc PC stuff there. A lot of it is over priced (Commodore 1541 $100???) but there are times when you can find a good deal like the Apple //e I picked up with a color monitor and 2 drives for $9.99.. Never had any luck with Goodwill either. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 10 06:25:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes In-Reply-To: <9DF37CF84920D511B9A60040F6CC67020416EE@naomi.gcstech.net> Message-ID: <01Aug10.073330edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> If anyone is ever in need of it, or wishes to make a copy of it, I have a paper tape from Cromemco of their Z80 monitor program, dated 1977. Jeff > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 2:55 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes > > > Couldnt sleep, so I dug into the other two boxes. Looks like a > complete doc set for at least one version of RSX-11, more MAINDECs, > and lots more paper tapes. > > I've got at least five full translucent blue trays full of various > paper tapes at this point. > > Anybody out there have a paper tape reader, and would be willing to > run these through and produce some kind of binary file that would be > usable with various software emulators (or useful to someone who > wanted to punch their own copies of these tapes)? I dont want them > to languish around in my garage when someone somewhere could be putting > them to use. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX > From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Aug 10 06:50:34 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CB5@MAIL10> Hello, all: I know that the PC turns 20 this month, but does anyone know the actual date of introduction? It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking for something to celebrate :-) Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Aug 10 07:29:38 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CB5@MAIL10> Message-ID: <008501c12198$2893b940$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> The original press release is dated August 12, 1981. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:50 AM Subject: PeeCee turns 20 > Hello, all: > > I know that the PC turns 20 this month, but does anyone know the > actual date of introduction? > > It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking > for something to celebrate :-) > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Aug 10 07:43:49 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill Message-ID: <72.e1dfbbf.28a53105@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/01 12:59:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: << On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Tom Owad wrote: > About three years ago I got a really nice TI-99/4a with the expansion > box and several boxes of books, software, and accessories at the > Goodwill in York for around $30, but that was all I ever got there. > > The Salvation Army in York used to get Apple and 8 bit micro stuff > pretty regularly, but now have absolutely nothing worth looking at. > > There are two Goodwills in Harrisburg that I've been to (both only > once). > One was pretty poor, but the other might be worth looking at as they > had a good shelf of computer books and manuals. (I wish I could > remember which store was which.) In my experience, the only thrift stores worth going to for hardware are the chains, like Thrift Town, Thrift Center, etc. At least that is the case here in California and also in Raleigh, NC, where I spent a lot of time a couple years ago. Sellam Ismail >> Unfortunately, here in raleigh, things have pretty much dried up as well. I remember I used to find neat stuff, like my PCRT and platinum apple //e system. I did find an atari 1200xl in the box some time ago that I hid, and was going to get later, but somehow someone beat me to it. My latest addition was my IBM S/36 pc and 5150 controller but that was in the spring. Even my favourite IBM PS/2s are getting hard to find. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From kentborg at borg.org Fri Aug 10 08:02:33 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <10108100934.ZM7164@unknown.zmail.host>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:34:24AM +0000 References: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> <10108100934.ZM7164@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <20010810090233.A20188@borg.org> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:34:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > ^ as a pipe still works in 'sh' (Bourne shell) but not in 'ksh' (Korn > shell). I don't know about 'bash'. Cool! ...but it doesn't work for me on a Red Hat 7.0 machine: [kentborg@borg kentborg]$ ls ^ more ls: ^: No such file or directory ls: more: No such file or directory [kentborg@borg kentborg]$ sh sh-2.04$ ls ^ more ls: ^: No such file or directory ls: more: No such file or directory sh-2.04$ exit -kb From kentborg at borg.org Fri Aug 10 08:18:13 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010810021326Z576566-21321+268@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca>; from mark@cs.ualberta.ca on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:13:20PM -0600 References: <200108100146.UAA12417@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20010810021326Z576566-21321+268@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20010810091813.B20188@borg.org> On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:13:20PM -0600, Mark Green wrote: > The CDC Cyber series had many different character sets, which was a > major pain in the ass for anyone maintaining software for them. I > spent several years working on the Pascal compiler for the CDC > machines (the orignal implementation from ETH). Ah, back at the U of Minn, we used CDC mainframes for our programming classes. I tried using as much lower case as the Pascal books did, and that did not make things happy. -kb, the Kent who also once opened a comment before column 76 and didn't close another comment before column 76 for many lines, causing the intervening lines to be silently dropped. P.S. Circa 1980 we even did one assignment on a punch card machine. The physical reader was a relatively svelt machine (at least compared to the central beasts we students could not touch), and it talked to an impressive looking, floppy-equipped PDP-11/34, bootstrapped via the front panel and everything. (Did they call the whole thing a Remote Job Entry Station?) What *was* that record separator card? A 6-7-8 overpunch? What was the job separator card?? From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Aug 10 07:15:08 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: <15219.26780.444673.317026@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3.0.2.32.20010809233740.01f27224@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010810081508.01f2f118@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:52 AM 8/10/01 -0400, Dave wrote: > You're not familiar with the overhead associated with fork()/vfork(), >are you Carlos. Good point, though some Unixes seem faster than others in this regard... I don't usually write sh jobs that take more than a few minutes. Perhaps if I did I'd change my mind about DCL. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Aug 10 08:32:49 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010810090233.A20188@borg.org>; from kentborg@borg.org on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 09:02:33AM -0400 References: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> <10108100934.ZM7164@unknown.zmail.host> <20010810090233.A20188@borg.org> Message-ID: <20010810083249.A4975258@uiuc.edu> Kent Borg said: > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:34:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > ^ as a pipe still works in 'sh' (Bourne shell) but not in 'ksh' (Korn > > shell). I don't know about 'bash'. > > Cool! ...but it doesn't work for me on a Red Hat 7.0 machine: That's 'cause linux systems (well, most; I know redhat does for sure) use "bash" as "sh". However, it doesn't work on IRIX 6.5.10 either... though it DOES work on solaris 8. huh... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1645.monmouth.com Fri Aug 10 08:34:00 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1645.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: ^ as pipe In-Reply-To: <20010810090233.A20188@borg.org> from Kent Borg at "Aug 10, 2001 09:02:33 am" Message-ID: <200108101334.f7ADY0B15907@bg-tc-ppp1645.monmouth.com> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:34:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > ^ as a pipe still works in 'sh' (Bourne shell) but not in 'ksh' (Korn > > shell). I don't know about 'bash'. > > Cool! ...but it doesn't work for me on a Red Hat 7.0 machine: > > [kentborg@borg kentborg]$ ls ^ more > ls: ^: No such file or directory > ls: more: No such file or directory > [kentborg@borg kentborg]$ sh > sh-2.04$ ls ^ more > ls: ^: No such file or directory > ls: more: No such file or directory > sh-2.04$ exit > > -kb On RedHat to ls -lsia and see /bin/bash is linked to /bin/sh -- so you're getting bash. The sh on FreeBSD (ash based) and pdksh and real AT&T ksh no longer do it either. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Aug 10 07:32:50 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: <200108100516.BAA07280@conman.org> References: <15219.26780.444673.317026@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010810083250.01f2b218@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:16 AM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > -spc (And can you explain the insanely different command line parameters > to ls (typical Unix command line), find and dd? All three, I think > are POSIX to some degree 8-) Mhh, care to highlight a particularly nasty difference in ls? (dd I know). When in doubt, use sed. Except for a certain bug in the HPUX 10.20 release, it behaves quite uniformly across the board. I brought the issue of interoperability on board because I like to be able to use different unixes w/o too many different quirks; however, we started comparing DCL vs. Unix shells. Interoperability is a moot issue for DCL, of course. It is a higher standard that we're requiring of Unix. Perhaps we should stick to one flavor of Unix when making the comparisons? (I know, I'm taking a step back from my former position; you guys are too tough :-) ). carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 10 08:45:12 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Funny old world... Message-ID: <200108101345.OAA21341@ns.mgf.net> As I sit here at work, watching a program I have written consume memory at the rate of 100k/sec, it strikes me that a mere 15 years ago, I was writing programs which fit into just 16k of RAM *including* variable space... How times change... I guess I was lucky (?) to miss the really early days when a few hundred bytes were all that was available... Ah, nostalgia! -- Cheers, Ade. From ken at seefried.com Fri Aug 10 08:50:42 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: <200108100809.DAA65497@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108100809.DAA65497@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010810135042.13635.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: "Iggy Drougge" > What a shame, I can't find the 32100 in the otherwise great "Great > microprocessors of the past and present" > How about an introduction? Orginally, the We32000, but pretty qucikly moved to the We32100. This is actually the CPU; there was a complete set of support chips. 10MHz, with a later upgrade to 18MHz (still not very fast). Used in the AT&T 3B2, 3B5 & 3B20 machines, and also shows up in a number of other odd places (some AT&T PBXs, 5ESS switch, etc.). CISC architecture, designed (supposedly) to efficiently support C language compliation. There was a followon We32200 chip that I recall showed up in the 3B2/1000. I've got the We32100 reference manual at home, if any has specific questions. AT&T carpet-bombed Georgia Tech with 3b2s when I was there (~1985), so I used them quite a bit at the time. Actually really nice when used with the 5620 BLIT graphics terminals. I'd love to have one of those. Ken From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 10 08:58:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255F1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > -kb, the Kent who also once opened a comment before column 76 and > didn't close another comment before column 76 for many lines, causing > the intervening lines to be silently dropped. > > > P.S. Circa 1980 we even did one assignment on a punch card machine. > The physical reader was a relatively svelt machine (at least compared > to the central beasts we students could not touch), and it talked to > an impressive looking, floppy-equipped PDP-11/34, bootstrapped via the > front panel and everything. (Did they call the whole thing a Remote > Job Entry Station?) What *was* that record separator card? A 6-7-8 > overpunch? What was the job separator card?? On the Cybers, 6/7/8 was EOR (end-of-record), and 6/7/8/9 was EOI (end-of-information). I suppose that's what you mean by "job separator"). -dq From chomko at greenbelt.com Fri Aug 10 09:18:40 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CB5@MAIL10> <008501c12198$2893b940$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: <3B73ED40.23AEA94F@greenbelt.com> Michael Nadeau wrote: > The original press release is dated August 12, 1981. > Sounds right. I remember way back when in 1981 when I was fresh out of college, I got a job working for CSC. Anyway, there was this guy that used to put in these ungodly hours. Well he left CSC to work for IBM in the late summer of 1981 and the main perk: they gave him is own PC , that his own for home use. Eric > > --Mike > > Michael Nadeau > Editorial Services > 603-893-2379 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cini, Richard" > To: "'ClassCompList'" > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:50 AM > Subject: PeeCee turns 20 > > > Hello, all: > > > > I know that the PC turns 20 this month, but does anyone know the > > actual date of introduction? > > > > It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking > > for something to celebrate :-) > > > > Rich > > > > ========================== > > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > > Congress Financial Corporation > > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > > 30th Floor > > New York, NY 10036 > > (212) 545-4402 > > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > > From erice at CAE.COM Fri Aug 10 09:58:05 2001 From: erice at CAE.COM (Eric Everton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: VAX - DRV11 Problem Message-ID: <8A6A2A139700D5118EB6009027B0FF3A01D75906@caemsx02.cae.ca> Hi, I am working on a CF-18 simulator which is based on a VAX (No need to mention that the sim is old!). I am developing some hardware to allow some automatic testing of MC (mission Computer) OFP (Operational Flight Program) software. Anyway, I am working with a DRV11 card (DMA interface for the VAX), to communicate to an FPGA (APEX20K) board which I have built. The setup is shown below. |------------------| |-----------------------| |-----------------------| | Keypad | | | | | | & |--------------------------------------| My board |-----------------------| Serial | | display | | | | Controller | |------------------| |-----------------------| |-----------------------| | | | |-----------------------| | | | VAX | | | |-----------------------| Normally the keypad and display would be connected directly, but now I can contol the data via my board. What the board does depends on the VAX commands sent to it. This way, the board can become transparent, pump data in 1 direction or the other, or just plain monitor the data. The vax can then validate that everything that is supposed to happen does, and it will become possible to write scripts to press buttons on the keypad rather than having someone push the actual button! Anyway, my problem is with the DRV11 card. (Actually I am using a DRV1-SF) I have taken the DEC supplied example driver for this card and modified it for my needs. (this works fine... I think!) The problem is that if I send several QIO calls back to back, there is a huge amount of time between the DMA transfers. What makes this even wierder, is that the delay between transfers seems to follow a pattern as follows: -- xfer data -- wait 200 us -- xfer data -- wait 1 ms -- xfer data -- wait 200 us -- xfer data -- wait 1 ms --xfer data -- wait 200 us -- ... Another quirk I seem to have is that if I pulse the ATTN line at some random time, I enter the ISR and everything runs smoothly. However, if I pulse the ATTN line just after a transfer ( within a few micro seconds) I enter the ISR for the completion interrupt, but I seem to miss the interrupt from the ATTN line if the transfer was smaller than 3 words!! I have no idea why it works for larger transfers and not for small transfers... Further if I examine the saved CSR value after an ATTN pulse was sent, I should see th ATTN bit latched, but it is not! can anyone explain this? I tried 2 cards and they both do the same thing. Anyway, any help at all would be appreciated... Eric Everton Avionics Simulation Specialist Dept. 49 Eric.Everton@cae.com (450) 476-4484 From geoff at pkworks.com Fri Aug 10 10:03:01 2001 From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PDP-12s, anyone? Message-ID: <003601c121ad$b1b6f1a0$394ab4cc@xyz.wmsnet.com> >I finally found time to start opening up the 3 boxes of DEC docs >that were awaiting me (3 more on the way, the guy tells me), and >found a treasure trove (well, thats what I called it) of PDP-12 >documentation. Looks like a fairly complete set of marketing >brochures, specs and options lists, promotional materials, etc. >All in that nice green color. Even the DEC warranty/service card that >was supposed to be stuck on the back of the machine. Looks like >almost-complete (I havent had time to go through them thoroughly) >sets of users and system manuals as well. > >(this is all formerly from the U. of Arizona Medical Center) > >Once I get this scanned, I'll definitely want these docs to go >somewhere that has a (preferrably operational) PDP-12 and will >give these docs a good home alongside a machine.. > >Also have VR14 manual (Megan, i think this was already marked for >you? I've got multiple copies now) and a VT50 manual. Two more >boxes on my porch to go through, and three more on the way... > >Will completely catalog and post a list on decdocs.org this weekend. > >Bill > >-- >Bill Bradford >mrbill@mrbill.net >Austin, TX > The Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island ( www.osfn.org/rcs ) has an operational PDP-12 - it was running Spacewar at the Vintage Computer Festival East 1.0 a couple of week ago - and we'd be delighted to make a home for those docs. I've copied this message to Mike Umbricht mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org ) and Carl Friend ( mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org ) of the RCS/RI, as they are the folks there most intimately involved with the PDP-12. For scanning the docs, consider Al Kossow's Bitsavers Project ( aek@spies.com , www.spies.com/~aek ), wherein he is scanning all manner of computer documentation to preserve it. If you are interested, I can coordinate the finding of the new home at the RCS/RI with scanning through Bitsavers, having done so for other things in the past. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 10 10:24:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: DOS for S-100? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > >There was a Zenith MS-DOS 3.31+ that ran on the Z-150/Z-151; > > > >I can probably scare it up... > > > > > > Thanks for the offer but the 150 and higher models are completely > > > different machines from the Z-100. They use the ISA buss and are 100% IBM > > > compatible so the OS is basicly PC DOS. > > > > They're not *quite* 100% IBM compatible, e.g. power supply, and non- > > Zenith keyboard use eventually causes the CPU board to no longer > > recognize a Zenith keyboard. > > Eventually? I don't really know anything about these systems, but it seems > strange that something like that would happen only after a while of such > use. Maybe it draws more power and eventually burns out components? Please > elaborate. :-) Hey, I'm a programmer, that's a hardware question, ask Tony... Seriously, I don't know, I assumed precisely what you suggest. -dq From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 10 11:02:12 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PDP-12s, anyone? In-Reply-To: <003601c121ad$b1b6f1a0$394ab4cc@xyz.wmsnet.com>; from geoff@pkworks.com on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:03:01AM -0400 References: <003601c121ad$b1b6f1a0$394ab4cc@xyz.wmsnet.com> Message-ID: <20010810110212.B13238@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:03:01AM -0400, Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote: > The Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island ( www.osfn.org/rcs ) has an > operational PDP-12 - it was running Spacewar at the Vintage Computer > Festival East 1.0 a couple of week ago - and we'd be delighted to make a > home for those docs. I've copied this message to Mike Umbricht > mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org ) and Carl Friend ( mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org ) of > the RCS/RI, as they are the folks there most intimately involved with > the PDP-12. For scanning the docs, consider Al Kossow's Bitsavers > Project ( aek@spies.com , www.spies.com/~aek ), wherein he is scanning > all manner of computer documentation to preserve it. If you are > interested, I can coordinate the finding of the new home at the RCS/RI > with scanning through Bitsavers, having done so for other things in the > past. I'll be scanning the brochures and similar stuff myself, but I'd be glad to donate everything (and the longer manuals) to the RCS. Carl's web page was one of the things that inspired me to start collecting vintage hardware. 8-) Can someone send me an address that I can mail this stuff to, once I get a chance to ship it out? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From gm0kma at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 10 11:07:26 2001 From: gm0kma at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Glenn=20Rainey?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: OC71 - crystal set Message-ID: <20010810160726.20627.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> Hello folks .. apologies for the 'sporadic' inquiry - I pulled the text below ## off a search ... crystal set / OC71 amp ..... Have searched FAR WIDE and ENDLESSLY for this circuit (and the book containing it which I borrowed from a library, ca. 1968) and dutifully returned. If you have any pointers these would be most gratefully received !! I have located a *similar* circuit at http://home.t-online.de/home/gollum/dt.htm mine had one output transformer, 2 OC71s (well, lots were burned in the process) and was constructed on a terminal block .... ah ! the nostalgia ! I shall attempt to mail this message also into discussion group cheers Glenn, GM0KMA Scotland ########### Subject: radio kits From: Adrian Graham (agraham@ccat.co.uk) Date: 12/13/00-05:35:01 AM Z > Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:39:07 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Fw: Professors worry that engineering students > don't tinker > > involved). You started out making a crystal set, then added a single > audio stage (OC71), then a second stage (another OC71), then added a > loudspeaker (using an LT700 output transformer). And finally > you replaced > the crystal detector with the OC45 regenerative stage. > > I think the book is still around, even if the transistors are hard to > find now. I remember the son of a technician at a place I was > working a > few years back was building one -- I managed to find him some OC71s. > > I thought just about all UK hobbyists built this at one time > or another... Nope - I had (and still have) my Radio Shack crystal radio kit to tinker with, followed by one of the Science Fair electronics kits where you had loads of spring terminals and small jumper wires to build circuits with......I found it the other day and it was dated 1973 :) ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From owad at applefritter.com Fri Aug 10 11:24:59 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <24.17854d07.28a51e15@aol.com> References: <24.17854d07.28a51e15@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010810162459.3312@mail.earthlink.net> >Actually the Salvation Army stores that I have found around PA have been >quite good! One can usually find Apple, Tandy, Commodore, and the usual misc >PC stuff there. A lot of it is over priced (Commodore 1541 $100???) but >there are times when you can find a good deal like the Apple //e I picked up >with a color monitor and 2 drives for $9.99.. Never had any luck with >Goodwill either. _Which_ Salvation Army stores in PA are quite good, Linc? Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Aug 10 11:30:30 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <3B7363C2.9E50C935@eoni.com> References: <01Aug7.120830edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <5.1.0.14.0.20010807182928.031480c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <15219.18052.264503.533822@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010810122728.00ac5730@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:32 PM 8/9/01 -0700, you wrote: >If your Goodwill is anything like my Salvation Army, it's a waste of a >good business card. They've been given my card weekly for about six >months now with me offering as a volunteer to set up and test any >computer equipment that might come through the door and every time I go >in it's like they've never seen me before. I've spoken with everyone >involved from the 'commander' (and his wife) down to the mentally >challenged individual that actually does the stocking and had absolutely >no success. > >This whole exercise in futility started when I found an ADB NeXT >keyboard on the shelf. After questioning everyone there, the >'commander' finally admitted that they plug them in and if they don't >get a Windows or Mac desktop, into the dumpster it goes. He vaguely >remembered busting the black monitor and pitching the slab... > >Idiots. (the kindest expletive I can use...) I love dealing with people like that. I just tell them something like I would have paid $200 for that piece. I once told a a scrap yard operator that he had just shredded about $6000 worth of HPs. He nearly fell off his forklift! Now he calls and tells me when he gets interesting things in. Joe From owad at applefritter.com Fri Aug 10 11:46:06 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: <200108070950.f779oHw00649@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200108070950.f779oHw00649@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20010810164606.1674@mail.earthlink.net> >Do you own / know how to handle a soldering iron? If yes, search the net >for the wiring of a VAXstation MMJ serial console cable. It is the >same. You may find a link to the MMJ cable wiring on this page: >http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html >It is easy to build a MMJ cable from a regular phone cable. Cut off the >tab of the RJ plug and solder a DB25 at the other side of the phone >cable. Ok, I got ahold of a 6-prong telephone cable, clipped the tab, and soldered connected it to a DB25 cable using the following pinout: Wire# Signal Color Destination/25pin plug 1 DTR White 20 2 TXD Black 2 3 GND Red 7 4 Com Green 8 5 RXD Yellow 3 6 DSR Blue 6 Still, I can get absolutely nothing to display on the terminal. My solder job is horrible, but I don't believe so bad as complete stop the connection. I've tried booting the system with the S3 switch in both places and with and without a null modem adapter in place (do I need one?). Any suggestions as to what I should try next? Thanks, Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From glindsey at ssinc.com Fri Aug 10 12:28:45 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: Telex 1186, Laser 128, and a hello Message-ID: <006801c121c1$fac7fe20$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> First, I'd like to say hi, as I've just joined this list after researching my old Telex 1186 and coming across archives that were almost exactly two years old. I've always had an affinity for classic systems, so I decided it made a lot of sense to join up, eh? Too bad I didn't realize how much I liked them earlier... I might've been able to stop my parents from junking an old CBM 4032 I used to play with. Anyways, the 1186 in question was the first computer I ever had, bought used for me when I was in third grade or so. A recent bout of nostalgia hit me, and I've been wondering if anyone else has had any luck finding one, or even some pictures of one on the Net... searches for "Telex 1186" only give me the aforementioned ClassicCmp archives, perusing the VCF's links list has proved fruitless, and looking for "MAD Computer" only gets me a bunch of sci-fi links. I would *love* to get one of those in my possession again; it holds a lot of great memories for me. Unfortunately, my dad sold it when we upgraded to a 286. *grumble* If I had known then that it was an 80186 machine, I might've been more inclined to keep it... but probably not, as I was about ten... Finally, would anyone be able to give me a general idea of the rarity of the Laser 128 Apple II clone? The info I've found has led me to believe it's not a particularly rare system... Thanks a lot for any help you might be able to give! I really appreciate it! GSL ***** Gregory S. Lindsey SSI Embedded Systems Programming From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Aug 10 12:39:47 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010810091813.B20188@borg.org> from Kent Borg at "Aug 10, 2001 09:18:13 am" Message-ID: <20010810173956Z576739-21321+959@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:13:20PM -0600, Mark Green wrote: > > The CDC Cyber series had many different character sets, which was a > > major pain in the ass for anyone maintaining software for them. I > > spent several years working on the Pascal compiler for the CDC > > machines (the orignal implementation from ETH). > > Ah, back at the U of Minn, we used CDC mainframes for our programming > classes. I tried using as much lower case as the Pascal books did, > and that did not make things happy. If I remember correctly the compiler was never modified to handle lower case letters, but I think the run-time support could handle them. I worked on the run-time part of the system, and I recall dealing with the various characters sets. I also put in the ability to call PPU programs from Pacal programs. This could also be done directly in Pascal, but required a fair amount of knowldege and several compiler cheats, so it wasn't recommended (which is why I did it that way most of the time). The CDC machines were the first ones that I used that had real parallelism, learned a hell of a lot the hard way! > > > -kb, the Kent who also once opened a comment before column 76 and > didn't close another comment before column 76 for many lines, causing > the intervening lines to be silently dropped. > > > P.S. Circa 1980 we even did one assignment on a punch card machine. > The physical reader was a relatively svelt machine (at least compared > to the central beasts we students could not touch), and it talked to > an impressive looking, floppy-equipped PDP-11/34, bootstrapped via the > front panel and everything. (Did they call the whole thing a Remote > Job Entry Station?) What *was* that record separator card? A 6-7-8 > overpunch? What was the job separator card?? > The 6-7-8 was an end or record, and 6-7-8-9 was and end of information. I seem to recall that on some devices (tape and cards??) two end of records in a row generated an end of information. A number of mini's were used as batch input systems on the CDC's. It was fairly easy to produce software for this, the protocol was available from CDC. We produced a version that would run on an HP2100, so something as modern as an 11/34 would have no problem with it. One of the interesting things about the CDC machines, is that the PPU programs didn't change from one version of the operation system to another. I can still recall looking at PPU program listings that had the following comment at the start: Translated to assembler from the original binary entered by Seymour Cray. I heard a story that the first operating system for the 6000 series machines was written in several weeks in Seymour Cray's cottage by a small group of programmers. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 10 13:21:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255F5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:13:20PM -0600, Mark Green wrote: > > > The CDC Cyber series had many different character sets, which was a > > > major pain in the ass for anyone maintaining software for them. I > > > spent several years working on the Pascal compiler for the CDC > > > machines (the orignal implementation from ETH). > > > > Ah, back at the U of Minn, we used CDC mainframes for our programming > > classes. I tried using as much lower case as the Pascal books did, > > and that did not make things happy. > > If I remember correctly the compiler was never modified to > handle lower case letters, but I think the run-time support > could handle them. I worked on the run-time part of the > system, and I recall dealing with the various characters sets. > I also put in the ability to call PPU programs from Pacal > programs. This could also be done directly in Pascal, but > required a fair amount of knowldege and several compiler > cheats, so it wasn't recommended (which is why I did it that > way most of the time). The CDC machines were the first ones > that I used that had real parallelism, learned a hell of a > lot the hard way! I was granted access to the source for the CDC BASIC 2.1 compiler, and added ASC() and CHR() to it. I specifically coded it to handle both types of ASCII support that CDC provided- the 76 octal prefix version in which characters that mapped to display code equivalents were 6 bits, and those that didn't map to D.C. got six bits in the form of the 76 prefix and then another six bits specifying the character. The TELEX timesharing subsystem also provided another mode, that was straight ASCII, albeit 8 bits right-justified in a 12-bit byte. You'd prefix a block of data with 4000 octal and then a stream of this type of ASCII; if anything interrupted the stream while being output, TELEX would not realize it was ASCII and would just puke out display code until it saw another 4000 code. All this work was to support a cursor-addressed Star Trek game that needed to run on at least a dozen different terminal types. Regards, -dq From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Aug 10 13:23:40 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: [80sBBS] Another Sub-Site, Another Plea for Assistance (fwd) Message-ID: Thought I'd pass along this request for a worthy cause. How is the UUCP revival project progressing, by the way? This might be a good way to get the word out about it. If that's desired right now. The full url is http://www.textfiles.com, which is a Wiretap type archive, except more specifically BBS oriented. Scott's email is jason@textfiles.com jbdigriz ********************************************************************** I've started work on the other vital site needed for the documentary: A complete and total list of every BBS software package ever made for any computer. I'm already aware this task is impossible; but the least I can do is take a good shot at it so I can look at different sets of packages for a computer and do the Right Things. The Right Things, in this case, are to try and contact the original authors of the software, and reach out to any underlying communities still using the software. I'd like it if people could start taking a look at the list and let me know about gaps, or point me to locations where there's more information about the software. No sense plugging up this mailing list with those; just mail them to me. "0A- Jason Scott TEXTFILES.COM From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 10 12:28:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <3B7394E1.558F5424@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I didn't know chains existed in thrift stores. GoodWill and the > Salvation Army is about it around here. There is one more place, but > I'm not sure if it still exists. The big ones in Californa (at least here in the SF/SiVa area) are Thrift Town and Thrift Center. I believe the chain I frequented in Raleigh was also a Thrift Center, leading me to believe they are a nationwide franchise. >From what I understand, in order to run a charitable thrift store, you only have to guarantee that 1% of your profits are going to a charity. So it may well be that someone saw the potential, ran the numbers, and saw dollar signs. > I don't think Goodwill counts as a chain does it? It is run > regionally it seems, and each region is quite different, I think. Not in the sense I'm thinking. They're a charity. They make money to help people. Thrift Town is in it for the profit. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Aug 10 13:32:32 2001 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? Message-ID: <60a8nt4el113qm2clu8jqi384thl862to9@4ax.com> A local computer scrapper has invited me out to look at some stuff he's got before he strips it and ships it out this weekend. He described it as a "rack full of PDP/84's with tape backups". He thinks there are three systems in the rack, and he mentioned that it was used for some sort of telephone switching system. Does anybody have any interest in saving this stuff? Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf computer simulator! From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 10 12:30:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CB5@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > I know that the PC turns 20 this month, but does anyone know the > actual date of introduction? > > It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking > for something to celebrate :-) August 12, 1981 Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 9 20:49:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <402.622T2200T1695913optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> And what is a Cambridge ring anyway? >A ring-topology network. I have one of the books/reports on it somewhere, >so I could possibly looks stuff up if you need to know anything. No particular need, but I wouldn't mind some info about what it looked like, what negotiation methods were used, and such. Perhaps enough to recognise one upon encounter. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1267.monmouth.com Fri Aug 10 14:02:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1267.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? In-Reply-To: <60a8nt4el113qm2clu8jqi384thl862to9@4ax.com> from Bill Richman at "Aug 10, 2001 01:32:32 pm" Message-ID: <200108101902.f7AJ2qK16668@bg-tc-ppp1267.monmouth.com> > A local computer scrapper has invited me out to look at some stuff > he's got before he strips it and ships it out this weekend. He > described it as a "rack full of PDP/84's with tape backups". He > thinks there are three systems in the rack, and he mentioned that it > was used for some sort of telephone switching system. Does anybody > have any interest in saving this stuff? > > > Bill Richman > bill_r@inetnebr.com > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > > Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological > oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf > computer simulator! > > Hell... yes. Where's the stuff out? Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 10 14:16:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: OT: Stupid User Story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01Aug10.152455edt.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> I just felt the need to share this with everyone. I had to respond today to a user that was having trouble with a HP LaserJet 4000-series printer jamming. I responded to find the following: 1) they were trying to feed custom letterhead through the printer, which included a gold 'foil' seal. when fed through alone, the fuser was melting the seal 2) to keep the seal from melting, they had attempted to cover it with Post-It-Notes. These in turn would peal off and get stuck in the printer. 3) next they had tried covering the foil seal with clear spray laquer! At this stage, the paper jammed before even reaching the fuser. This is where I confiscated the spray can, shut the printer down for good and redirected their printer output to another printer, telling them to use an inkjet for the letterhead. geez... Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:10:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:14 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809200304.00acb820@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "joe" at Aug 9, 1 08:07:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010810/24270d8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:12:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Aug 9, 1 08:29:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010810/2d65aa30/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:48:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: Funny old world... In-Reply-To: <200108101345.OAA21341@ns.mgf.net> from "Ade Vickers" at Aug 10, 1 02:45:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 716 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010810/1a5ba344/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:55:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: OC71 - crystal set In-Reply-To: <20010810160726.20627.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?Glenn=20Rainey?=" at Aug 10, 1 05:07:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010810/bad37be5/attachment.ksh From jss at subatomix.com Fri Aug 10 14:20:06 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? In-Reply-To: <60a8nt4el113qm2clu8jqi384thl862to9@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20010810141716.F45524-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Bill Richman wrote: > > A local computer scrapper has invited me out to look at some stuff > he's got before he strips it and ships it out this weekend. He > described it as a "rack full of PDP/84's with tape backups". He > thinks there are three systems in the rack, and he mentioned that it > was used for some sort of telephone switching system. Does anybody > have any interest in saving this stuff? Where is that? I imagine several people would be interested. Go check it out. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 10 14:22:26 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: VAX 8700 in Madison, WI Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010810141951.02d04100@pc> I saw an "offer to sell" on the wall at UW-Madison Surplus that's selling a VAX 8700. See: http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/vax/archive/vax8700.html http://www.bussvc.wisc.edu/swap/ots023759.html It says "VAX 8700 Computer, Approx 9' 8" X 5' 1" X 2' 6" . Model H9652-EA, H9CAB-BA, 87XBA-XA Single. Manufacturer's Serial Number's, ASQ1064, CX70905010, NI70600771. This computer takes up an entire room, but is disassemblable. NOT ON WHEELS High bid gets it on August 15. See wisc.edu link above; I'm not selling it. - John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 10 14:30:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372255F6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > A local computer scrapper has invited me out to look at some stuff > > he's got before he strips it and ships it out this weekend. He > > described it as a "rack full of PDP/84's with tape backups". He > > thinks there are three systems in the rack, and he mentioned that it > > was used for some sort of telephone switching system. Does anybody > > have any interest in saving this stuff? > > > > Bill Richman > > bill_r@inetnebr.com > > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > > > > Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological > > oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf > > computer simulator! > > > > Hell... yes. Where's the stuff out? If it's local to the poster, Nebraska... -dq From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 10 14:35:12 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010810083250.01f2b218@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Aug 10, 2001 08:32:50 AM Message-ID: <200108101935.PAA07978@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Carlos Murillo once stated: > > At 01:16 AM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > > -spc (And can you explain the insanely different command line parameters > > to ls (typical Unix command line), find and dd? All three, I think > > are POSIX to some degree 8-) > > Mhh, care to highlight a particularly nasty difference in ls? (dd I know). > When in doubt, use sed. Except for a certain bug in the HPUX 10.20 > release, it behaves quite uniformly across the board. What I was trying to say is that `ls' uses single letter options preceeded by a dash (-l -a -F), `find' uses full words with a dash (-print -follow) and `dd' uses words/abreviations without dashes (if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null count=45) and all three are found on every Unix system (at least, all the ones I've used and I've used a fair number of them). > I brought the issue of interoperability on board because I like to be able > to use different unixes w/o too many different quirks; however, we > started comparing DCL vs. Unix shells. Interoperability is a moot issue > for DCL, of course. It is a higher standard that we're requiring > of Unix. Perhaps we should stick to one flavor of Unix when making > the comparisons? (I know, I'm taking a step back from my former position; > you guys are too tough :-) ). I am talking about a single flavor of Unix 8-) -spc (Oh, then there's the GNU utilities which can also take full words preceeded by two dashes ... ) From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Aug 10 14:35:34 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony wrote: > Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output > and ^Q to restart it? Not at all. Does that mean I'm showing my age?? -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 10 14:53:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 10, 2001 07:10:57 PM Message-ID: <200108101953.f7AJrj402959@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Control G is Bell. Some older electronic keyboards, including the one on > the Apple ][ have the word 'Bell' on the 'G' key. Actually, ^G is BEL (just three characters). In order: NUL, SOH, STX, ETX, EOT, ENQ, ACK, BEL, BS, HT, LF, VT, FF, CR, SO, SI, DLE, DC1, DC2, DC3, DC4, NAK, SYN, ETB, CAN, EM, SUB, ESC, FS, GS, RS, US, SP, and DEL. Eight-bit ASCII (at least DEC's implementation) added: IND, NEL, SSA, ESA, HTS, HTJ, VTS, PLD, PLU, RI, SS2, SS3, DCS, PU1, PU2, STS, CCH, MW, SPA, EPA, CSI, ST, OSC, PM, and APC. > ^Q (Xon), ^R (Yon), ^S (Xoff), ^T (Yoff). > > Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output > and ^Q to restart it? I rarely ever use anything other than ^S/^Q, except on a VTxxx terminal, where I will in the odd instance use the "Hold Screen" key. I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 10 15:01:55 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: VAX 8700 in Madison, WI In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010810141951.02d04100@pc> from John Foust at "Aug 10, 2001 02:22:26 pm" Message-ID: <200108102001.NAA03641@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > http://www.bussvc.wisc.edu/swap/ots023759.html > > It says "VAX 8700 Computer, Approx 9' 8" X 5' 1" X 2' 6" . > Model H9652-EA, H9CAB-BA, 87XBA-XA Single. Manufacturer's > Serial Number's, ASQ1064, CX70905010, NI70600771. This computer > takes up an entire room, but is disassemblable. NOT ON WHEELS > > High bid gets it on August 15. See wisc.edu link above; > I'm not selling it. If I guess right this machine used to be named "speedy". (Or was speedy an 8600?) Anyone know how many VAX MIPS this guy cranked? Eric From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 10 15:25:19 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 In-Reply-To: References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CB5@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010810162519.00ce0620@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > >> I know that the PC turns 20 this month, but does anyone know the >> actual date of introduction? >> >> It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking >> for something to celebrate :-) > >August 12, 1981 I thought he wanted something to *celebrate*, not mourn... :-) I wonder when OS-9 was first released... (And no, not the Mac mis-named %^*$&#* ) *that* would be much more fitting (IMNSHO) to celebrate... And, OT-wise -- I wonder why they haven't released a version of OS-9 for the Palm? It looks like they support all the devices (except maybe requiring a new video driver) and I'd give my left testicle to be able to program Basic09 on my IIIc... Ah, well... sux to be me... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 10 15:28:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I've a couple of text editors and word processors over the >> years that mimicked the sounds of a typewriter. I believe the ROM >> based word processor on the Coleco Adam does it and I seem to recall >> a program for the Amiga that did it as well. > >Fortunately, a pair of wire cutters will silence the speaker and remove >this annoying misfeature.... It's kind of novel for the first couple of seconds, but you're correct, it gets annoying really, really fast.... Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Aug 10 15:34:50 2001 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question Message-ID: <01K6Z0DPVFWIDBGPJD@cc.usu.edu> Eric Dittman wrote: > I rarely ever use anything other than ^S/^Q, except on a VTxxx terminal, > where I will in the odd instance use the "Hold Screen" key. I'll also > often use ^[ for ESC. ^[ doesn't work on Televideo terminals. Some bright soul writing the firmware seems to have decided that, since the terminal has a perfectly good ESCape key, no one would _ever_ want to use ^[. When you hit ^[ on a Televideo, you get ^] ([ and ] are on the same key; you should have had to hit SHIFT to get ^]). This was really annoying to me when I was moving between keyboards a lot and picked up the habit of hitting ^[ in vi because I couldn't depend on the location of the ESCape key (or even it's existence; I used a lot of VT220s and other DEC systems which used the LK201 keyboard). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 10 16:01:28 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <01K6Z0DPVFWIDBGPJD@cc.usu.edu> from "Roger Ivie" at Aug 10, 2001 02:34:50 PM Message-ID: <200108102101.f7AL1Sm06696@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I rarely ever use anything other than ^S/^Q, except on a VTxxx terminal, > > where I will in the odd instance use the "Hold Screen" key. I'll also > > often use ^[ for ESC. > > ^[ doesn't work on Televideo terminals. Some bright soul writing the > firmware seems to have decided that, since the terminal has a perfectly > good ESCape key, no one would _ever_ want to use ^[. When you hit > ^[ on a Televideo, you get ^] ([ and ] are on the same key; you should have > had to hit SHIFT to get ^]). This was really annoying to me > when I was moving between keyboards a lot and picked up the habit of > hitting ^[ in vi because I couldn't depend on the location of the ESCape > key (or even it's existence; I used a lot of VT220s and other DEC systems > which used the LK201 keyboard). That sounds really brain-damaged on Televideo's part. I picked up using ^[ for ESC for the same reason as you did, along with the fact that, as a touch-typist, I could hit ^[ without taking my hands away from the home keys while the ESC key almost always was located where I'd have to take my left hand away. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 10 16:23:41 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 trouble In-Reply-To: <20010810164606.1674@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200108102123.f7ALNfx00550@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 10 Aug, Tom Owad wrote: > Ok, I got ahold of a 6-prong telephone cable, clipped the tab, and > soldered connected it to a DB25 cable using the following pinout: Hmm. The MMJ port is differential. So you have to connect pins 3 and 4 of the MMJ to GND, pin 7, on the DB25. Pin 2 is TXD and 5 is RXD on the MMJ. They have to go to the pins 2 and 3 on the DB25. I don't know what wiring form the folowing I used (I think it was H8575-A), but at least one should work: http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/pinouts.html --- schnipp --- 6-pin modified modular jack (MMJ) used for serial ports on the VAXstation. DEC carries four DB-to-MMJ adaptors. They are internally wired as follows Rdy Out TX+ TX- RX- RX+ Rdy In Adaptor Gender 1 2 3 4 5 6 Use with: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- H8575-A F 20 2 7 7 3 6&8 VTxxx terminal H8571-C M 6 3 7 7 2 20 DEC printer H8571-D M 6 3 7 7 2 20 Modem H8571-E M 20 2 7 7 3 6&8 Female terminal or LaserWriter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- RS-232 using DB-25 connectors: DTE DCE Terminal Modem or computer Pin Number Signal Name 2 TD Transmit Data --> 3 RD Receive Data <-- 7 GND Ground --- 6 DSR Data Set Ready <-- 8 DCD Data Carrier Detect <-- 20 DTR Data Terminal Ready --> --- schnapp --- -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From kentborg at borg.org Fri Aug 10 16:59:37 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <20010810083249.A4975258@uiuc.edu>; from dtwright@uiuc.edu on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:32:49AM -0500 References: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> <10108100934.ZM7164@unknown.zmail.host> <20010810090233.A20188@borg.org> <20010810083249.A4975258@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20010810175937.B22004@borg.org> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:32:49AM -0500, Dan Wright wrote: > Kent Borg said: > > That's 'cause linux systems (well, most; I know redhat does for sure) use > "bash" as "sh". OK, so I tried it on a genuine "sh" (that we have running on an in-progress embedded project), and it does work. -kb From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 18:07:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108101953.f7AJrj402959@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Aug 10, 1 02:53:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 308 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010811/5387d931/attachment.ksh From mcgazza7 at bigpond.com Fri Aug 10 18:34:38 2001 From: mcgazza7 at bigpond.com (Cheree McGarry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: osborne display driver Message-ID: <000701c121f5$0a3da200$76448690@default> i have recently aquired an osborne monitor. when win 95 boots up, the win95 logo with the clouds looks like it is in at least 16 bit colour mode, but after that, the screen resets back to 16 colour mode. i can't change the colour mode to more than 16 colours when using the standard display driver that comes with win 95, and i can't find an osborne display driver on the net. Does anyone know where i can find an osborne driver or what other drivers would be compatible with osborne. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010811/a63445d2/attachment.html From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Aug 10 18:42:27 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <01K6Z0DPVFWIDBGPJD@cc.usu.edu>; from IVIE@cc.usu.edu on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:34:50PM -0600 References: <01K6Z0DPVFWIDBGPJD@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <20010810164227.A22119@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:34:50PM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > ^[ doesn't work on Televideo terminals. Some bright soul writing the > firmware seems to have decided that, since the terminal has a perfectly > good ESCape key, no one would _ever_ want to use ^[. When you hit > ^[ on a Televideo, you get ^] ([ and ] are on the same key; you should have > had to hit SHIFT to get ^]). This was really annoying to me So what actually happened if you hit CTRL-SHIFT-[ ? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 10 18:52:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: Dan Wright "Re: an odd question" (Aug 10, 8:32) References: <200108092233.SAA06697@conman.org> <10108100934.ZM7164@unknown.zmail.host> <20010810090233.A20188@borg.org> <20010810083249.A4975258@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <10108110052.ZM7740@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 10, 8:32, Dan Wright wrote: > Kent Borg said: > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:34:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > ^ as a pipe still works in 'sh' (Bourne shell) but not in 'ksh' (Korn > > > shell). I don't know about 'bash'. > > > > Cool! ...but it doesn't work for me on a Red Hat 7.0 machine: > > That's 'cause linux systems (well, most; I know redhat does for sure) use > "bash" as "sh". > > However, it doesn't work on IRIX 6.5.10 either... though it DOES work on > solaris 8. huh... >From IRIX 6.5, 'sh' is actually 'ksh' so it's not Bourne shell either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 10 18:57:32 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: ^X (was: an odd question" (Aug 10, 19:10) References: Message-ID: <10108110057.ZM7744@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 10, 19:10, Tony Duell wrote: > ^Q (Xon), ^R (Yon), ^S (Xoff), ^T (Yoff). > > Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output > and ^Q to restart it? Certainly not: I do it all the time :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 10 19:25:34 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: osborne display driver In-Reply-To: <000701c121f5$0a3da200$76448690@default> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010810172437.01bc9640@209.185.79.193> First you have to stop sending email in HTML, then second you have to select "[Standard Monitors]" and pick the standard VGA monitor that does the resolution the Osborne monitor can handle. --Chuck At 09:34 AM 8/11/01 +1000, you wrote: >i have recently aquired an osborne monitor. when win 95 boots up, the >win95 logo with the clouds looks like it is in at least 16 bit colour >mode, but after that, the screen resets back to 16 colour mode. i can't >change the colour mode to more than 16 colours when using the standard >display driver that comes with win 95, and i can't find an osborne display >driver on the net. Does anyone know where i can find an osborne driver or >what other drivers would be compatible with osborne. From jss at subatomix.com Fri Aug 10 19:40:49 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <10108110057.ZM7744@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <20010810193643.S45929-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen > output and ^Q to restart it? I used to, but now I've gotten used to the FreeBSD syscons driver's scrollback mode, which is toggled by the SCROLL LOCK key. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Aug 10 20:27:05 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: Unix Quote (was: Re: building a PDP11 from the things you In-Reply-To: <200108101935.PAA07978@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "Aug 10, 2001 03:35:12 pm" Message-ID: <20010811012708Z576848-21321+1258@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > It was thus said that the Great Carlos Murillo once stated: > > > > At 01:16 AM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > > > -spc (And can you explain the insanely different command line parameters > > > to ls (typical Unix command line), find and dd? All three, I think > > > are POSIX to some degree 8-) > > > > Mhh, care to highlight a particularly nasty difference in ls? (dd I know). > > When in doubt, use sed. Except for a certain bug in the HPUX 10.20 > > release, it behaves quite uniformly across the board. > > What I was trying to say is that `ls' uses single letter options preceeded > by a dash (-l -a -F), `find' uses full words with a dash (-print -follow) > and `dd' uses words/abreviations without dashes (if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null > count=45) and all three are found on every Unix system (at least, all the > ones I've used and I've used a fair number of them). > If I remember correctly, dd was originally intended to emulate the dd command on OS 360, so it doesn't look like any of the other Unix commands. Originally, dd was used to deal with media produced by other operating systems, which I think was the motivation for modeling it after the dd command on OS 360. I recall reading this in the V6 manuals, so if anyone has easy access to a V6 they could check this. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 10 20:53:36 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:10:57 +0100 (BST) . Message-ID: In message , Tony Duell writes: >Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output >and ^Q to restart it? I still do, sometimes at least. The output has gotten faster (and I've probably gotten slower). So it's a lot harder to control how many lines I let scroll than it was 20 years ago. Brian L. Stuart From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 10 19:23:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill In-Reply-To: <3B7395CC.D50BD999@internet1.net> Message-ID: <592.623T650T834099optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >Haha, now i don't feel so bad about going once or twice a week. I >always feel like such a dork going in, not seeing anything, walking back >out with no purchase, then doing it again later that week. I figure the >employees gota be wondering what this bozo is doing :-) For some reason, people tend to think that I work there whenever I visit the salvation army. It must be the familiar way I handle things there. I'd be able to shop there eyefolded. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A bore is a man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 10 21:43:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: Now *this* is cool In-Reply-To: <200108100603.XAA11942@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <2253.623T1100T2235049optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> >Because it allows us to still be using Commodores and hopefully repair any >> >future problems with open-source, current technology. It's not merely a >> >modern C64 anyway; it has a '816 core, SDRAM controller, SVGA output and >> >she's even talking Ethernet in the spec. >> >> The day when sourcing a C64 becomes difficult is the day when finding VGA >> monitors will be equally difficult. Besides, the way most C64 people use >> their C64s is very dependent on all manners of hardware "features" which >> would make any simulation quite a difficult task to accomplish. >Which she is still attempting to do, and so far with success, even with >tricksy things like VIC-II badlines (for the untutored, this is taking >advantage of the VIC-II's DMA cycle every eighth raster line and tricking >it into new and different behaviours/timing). I still don't see the point. It's just a hardware emulation (and a mess of wires =) when you could just as well use the real thing. >Besides, I think the coolness factor fits more into this project than the >practicality factor, n'est pas? Agreed, but then I'd rather she'd put that effort into something which could be put in or onto a real C64. Adding ethernet capability to my C128D wouldn't be that objectionable. =) >> OTOH, if you regard it as a new 65816 computer (which may happen to be C64 >> compatible in some ways), it doesn't seem to bad. >It will of course have its own native mode, and at least on the discussion >list there are many ideas for a new OS specifically for this native mode as >well. How about CLIPS? That seems to be 65816 native and rather advanced at this stage. The real limiting factor in that case is the C64 resolution. IOW, a 65816 with VGA graphics /and/ resolutions would seem like a nice little thing, though I suppose it needs some kind of selling point, which would be the C64 compatibility. Mind you, you said "'816 core"; does that mean that there isn't a real 65816 in there, just a FPGA simulation? The fact that it is supposed to have a slot for a SuperCPU seems to indicate that. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 10 22:09:26 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CB5@MAIL10> Message-ID: <261.623T1300T2494449optimus@canit.se> Cini, Richard skrev: > It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking >for something to celebrate :-) Celebrate??? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 10 22:15:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: <20010810135042.13635.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se> Ken Seefried skrev: >From: "Iggy Drougge" >> What a shame, I can't find the 32100 in the otherwise great "Great >> microprocessors of the past and present" >> How about an introduction? >Orginally, the We32000, but pretty qucikly moved to the We32100. This is >actually the CPU; there was a complete set of support chips. 10MHz, with a >later upgrade to 18MHz (still not very fast). Used in the AT&T 3B2, 3B5 & >3B20 machines, and also shows up in a number of other odd places (some AT&T >PBXs, 5ESS switch, etc.). CISC architecture, designed (supposedly) to >efficiently support C language compliation. There was a followon We32200 >chip that I recall showed up in the 3B2/1000. What is the 3B1 based on, then? And when was the 32000/32100 introduced? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From pechter at bg-tc-ppp721.monmouth.com Fri Aug 10 22:00:26 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp721.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Aug 11, 2001 04:15:32 am" Message-ID: <200108110300.f7B30QT17869@bg-tc-ppp721.monmouth.com> > Ken Seefried skrev: > > >From: "Iggy Drougge" > >> What a shame, I can't find the 32100 in the otherwise great "Great > >> microprocessors of the past and present" > >> How about an introduction? > > >Orginally, the We32000, but pretty qucikly moved to the We32100. This is > >actually the CPU; there was a complete set of support chips. 10MHz, with a > >later upgrade to 18MHz (still not very fast). Used in the AT&T 3B2, 3B5 & > >3B20 machines, and also shows up in a number of other odd places (some AT&T > >PBXs, 5ESS switch, etc.). CISC architecture, designed (supposedly) to > >efficiently support C language compliation. There was a followon We32200 > >chip that I recall showed up in the 3B2/1000. > > What is the 3B1 based on, then? > And when was the 32000/32100 introduced? > 68010 I believe... a 68020 follow on was never released IIRC. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 10 21:40:59 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: [80sBBS] Another Sub-Site, Another Plea for Assistance (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This guy is also producing a documentary on the BBS. A worthwhile and notable project. On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Thought I'd pass along this request for a worthy cause. > > How is the UUCP revival project progressing, by the way? This might be a > good way to get the word out about it. If that's desired right now. > > The full url is http://www.textfiles.com, which is a Wiretap type archive, > except more specifically BBS oriented. Scott's email is jason@textfiles.com > > jbdigriz > > ********************************************************************** > > > > I've started work on the other vital site needed for the documentary: > A complete and total list of every BBS software package ever made for > any computer. I'm already aware this task is impossible; but the > least I can do is take a good shot at it so I can look at different > sets of packages for a computer and do the Right Things. > > The Right Things, in this case, are to try and contact the original > authors of the software, and reach out to any underlying communities > still using the software. > > I'd like it if people could start taking a look at the list and let > me know about gaps, or point me to locations where there's more > information about the software. No sense plugging up this mailing > list with those; just mail them to me. > "0A- Jason Scott > TEXTFILES.COM > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 10 22:51:02 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: Your message of 11 Aug 2001 4:15:32 +0100 . <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: In message <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se>, "Iggy Drougge" writes: >What is the 3B1 based on, then? 68010 with a custom paged MMU. In a slightly different configuration, the 3b1 was also known as the 7300. Brian L. Stuart From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 11 02:17:45 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:16 2005 Subject: My local Goodwill References: Message-ID: <006c01c12235$bbc7d050$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:28 PM Subject: Re: My local Goodwill > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I didn't know chains existed in thrift stores. GoodWill and the > > Salvation Army is about it around here. There is one more place, but > > I'm not sure if it still exists. > > The big ones in Californa (at least here in the SF/SiVa area) are Thrift > Town and Thrift Center. I believe the chain I frequented in Raleigh was > also a Thrift Center, leading me to believe they are a nationwide > franchise. > > From what I understand, in order to run a charitable thrift store, you > only have to guarantee that 1% of your profits are going to a charity. So > it may well be that someone saw the potential, ran the numbers, and saw > dollar signs. We have Value Village here in Canada, they buy their stuff from the Charities and then sell it. They wanted 9.99 for an epson equity, 1.99 for a logitech wheel mouse and 2.99 for an numeric keypad MS C 5.1 disks for 2.99, norton antivirus 4.0 for 2.99, lots of game cartridges.. Usually there are parts missing but often a good source for manuals. Lately they've been cleaning up and today the book shelves were empty. From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es Sat Aug 11 04:48:24 2001 From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: recent additions References: <000501c12231$c6725c90$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <001c01c1224a$c491d360$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> > I recently filled the car with these: > > Apollo DOMAIN Series 3500 > Domain series 3000 model 3010 > HP/Apollo series 400 > [...] > I also have "quite a pile of HP 712/715/725s in various > condition" for me to pick up when I get some space cleared. > [...] > > IKEA has said that the missing piece to complete the > shelving will be delayed another 3 weeks, and my wife says > no more machines until the shelves are up! This last quote is not strange, my god ! Sergio From wilby98 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 04:55:52 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: recent additions In-Reply-To: <001c01c1224a$c491d360$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> Message-ID: <20010811095552.51707.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com> I must have missed the post in this thread from the user who acquired the Apollo's. In any case, I too have an "Apollo cluster" which includes 7-DN3500's and 1-DN3010. I actually have only the DN3010 running now but hope to have the rest hooked up sometime in the forseeable future. Nice to see other Apollo collectors here. Bill Amsterdam, NL --- SP wrote: > > I recently filled the car with these: > > > > Apollo DOMAIN Series 3500 > > Domain series 3000 model 3010 > > HP/Apollo series 400 > > [...] > > I also have "quite a pile of HP 712/715/725s in > various > > condition" for me to pick up when I get some space > cleared. > > [...] > > > > IKEA has said that the missing piece to complete > the > > shelving will be delayed another 3 weeks, and my > wife says > > no more machines until the shelves are up! > > This last quote is not strange, my god ! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From guerney at bigpond.com Sat Aug 11 02:17:05 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: Finds in Houston References: Message-ID: <000201c12249$c3325fe0$7937fea9@Guerney> From: Tony Duell > There are some fairly old (way pre-PC), specialised, monitors that are > still worth grabbing....like the ones for the HP9845 calculator are > hard to find You can say that again. A good moment to ask that if any one does find a working one, just buy it for me - I need it! Of course, it would be great if that was in Australia, but I suspect its going to have to come from another part of the planet, and I'll pay the shipping. Phil (Brisbane, Australia) From wilby98 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 05:22:06 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: recent additions In-Reply-To: <000501c12231$c6725c90$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20010811102206.59903.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com> I found the original posting however it was sorted way down in my email index due to the "date" in the senders heading. Note below: From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Subject: recent additions Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:21:32 -0500 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You might want to fix this. Bill --- Mike Kenzie wrote: > I recently filled the car with these: > > Apollo DOMAIN Series 3500 > Domain series 3000 model 3010 > HP/Apollo series 400 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sat Aug 11 05:43:36 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: VAX 8700 in Madison, WI Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660DF@exc-reo1> >If I guess right this machine used to be named "speedy". (Or was >speedy an 8600?) Anyone know how many VAX MIPS this guy cranked? A VAX 8700 was rated at 6 VUPS. A VAX 8800 (dual processor variant) came in at 12 VUPs. (I just quote 'em, I don't write 'em!) A VAX 8600 came in at about 4 VUPs. The follow on VAX 8650 came in at 6 VUPs. These are all physically large machines. There is also a VAX 8650 available on ebay at the moment (in Memphis IIRC) Antonio From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Aug 11 07:47:41 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108101953.f7AJrj402959@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010811084741.01f3cc98@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:53 PM 8/10/01 -0500, Eric wrote > I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From matt at knm.yi.org Sat Aug 11 09:43:02 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: recent additions In-Reply-To: <000501c12231$c6725c90$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Mike Kenzie wrote: [cut] > IKEA has said that the missing piece to complete the > shelving will be delayed another 3 weeks, and my wife says > no more machines until the shelves are up! Ahh - sounds familar. I got a great setup from rapid racking here in the UK. There's a (slightly out of date) pic up at http://knm.yi.org/room.html Note the angled monitor shelf :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 11 09:52:57 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010808085902.00ab5300@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3B7546C9.D0FE9F8@bellsouth.net> I'm in Sanford (just north of Orlado), so this sounds cool. It would be nice if somebody other than me showed up with some DEC PDP stuff :) I am sure I have some PC bits and maybe a few Sun bits to get rid of. BTW: glenatacme? Which Acme are you at? joe wrote: > > Steve Robertson said "Why don't you send out an invitation to the > "Central Florida Computer Junk Fest". > > OK. How many of you live within driving distance of central > Florida? Steve and I want to have a junk fest and clear out some of our > unused junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, hidden treasures. Steve suggested that we > have it on Sept 8th. > > Interested? > > Joe > > >See ya, SteveRob > X-Originating-IP: [63.68.245.221] > From: "Steve Robertson" > To: rigdonj@intellistar.net > Bcc: > Subject: Re: Hey Dude! > Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:46:55 -0400 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > Message-ID: > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2001 20:46:56.0050 (UTC) > FILETIME=[18828120:01C11F82] > > Joe, > > > Let me know what you're getting rid of. You may have something that I > > can't live without! > > > Don't pitch the Kaypros. I gave away all the ones that I had but now > > I've picked up a Kaypro 2 and I'm sort of attached to it. Do >you have > > any docs or anything for them? > > Actually the KPs are pretty neat little boxes and I really didn't want to > toss them. Just want to get some of them outta my way. I do have some of > the original DOCs. Nothing technical though. Basic operators manuals, > wordstar manuals, CPM manuals, Cbasic manuals, etc... I'll throw 'em in > the truck when I come up. > > I've got some software here... Somewhere... It may take me a while to drag > up it up. I'm sure if nothing else, Don Maslin or someone else on the CC > list could provide a boot disk. Everything else can be downloaded from the > CC archives. > > >Mike, Bob or Glen might want it, Bob and Glen are here in town. Hmm. I > >was just thinking, we should try to get everyone together and > >have a mini-swap meet. Besides you and me, Bob and Glen live here in town > >and Mike lives in S. Georgia and Phil lives near Naples and I think > >there's at least one other guy that lives near Tampa. > > I think that would be great. Maybe we could do it on Saturday Sept 8th. > Everyone can throw their junk in their vehicles and we'll fight over it. > Anything that doesn't get claimed, can live with you :-) > > > Can you tell me more about the 6800 box? > > > >Well... Put it this way... It's got Dual 8" floppies and total of 4K RAM. > >The OS is just a "monitor" program. I also have a complete accounting > >package with it but never really tried to make it do anything... It was > >interfaced to antique DIABLO keyboard / printer. Let me tell you, this SOB > >is primitive! It's probably worth something. I'm just tired of tripping > >over it. > > > >I could also bring a couple of ATT UNIX boxes (wonder where they came > >from) with all the docs, an ATT 6300, and some other stuff. > > > >Why don't you send out an invitation to the "Central Florida Computer Junk > >Fest". > > > >See ya, SteveRob -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From amichael at nortelnetworks.com Sat Aug 11 11:12:18 2001 From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) Message-ID: Does anyone know where I could find software for the Periscope card? Arlen Michaels > -----Original Message----- Fred Cisin wrote: > Periscope (by Brett Salter) had several different versions, ranging from > little clips to go into an ISA slot alongside a board, to a full lenghth > board with "write-protectable RAM" that the debugger could be loaded into. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010811/22658e98/attachment.html From dittman at dittman.net Sat Aug 11 11:26:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: QBUS SCSI - Alpha Trade? Message-ID: <200108111626.f7BGQZY21491@narnia.int.dittman.net> Is anyone with a good spare QBUS SCSI controller interested in trading for a low-end Alpha? I'd also be interested in a DSSI-SCSI converter. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net DEC Enthusiasts Club: http://www.dittman.net/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 11 14:54:33 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: Emulex board info needed References: <200108111626.f7BGQZY21491@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3B758D79.2544@xs4all.nl> Hello All, Does anybody have some info on the Emulex SC311 interface card? It is a controller for 4 SMD devices, and I'm particulary interested in the switch settings of the 2 switch banks. I used it to access 2 Fujitsu's, but I got an Amcodyne 7110 drive which has 1 fixed and 1 removable cartridge. These are seen as 2 RK06's, lun 0 is the fixed drive, and lun 1 is the removable one. This drive came with a QBus Dilog SMD interface card (DQ215). I hooked the drive up on the Emulex, but I can only access the fixed drive lun 0 as DR0, not the removable lun. DR1 is not lun 1 unfortunately. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From mranalog at home.com Sat Aug 11 12:56:59 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: overwhelmed with paper tapes Message-ID: <3B7571EB.3CF592F6@home.com> Bill said: > Anybody out there have a paper tape reader, and would be willing to > run these through and produce some kind of binary file that would be > usable with various software emulators (or useful to someone who > wanted to punch their own copies of these tapes)? I dont want them > to languish around in my garage when someone somewhere could be putting > them to use. > Bill I can also read paper tapes into my PC. The files would be raw dumps of the tapes, handy for punching copies. One of these days I'm going to sit down and write a converter that detects the file format and extracts the data, but I'm not there yet. My setup is a DATA I/O paper tape reader (fairly new compared to most paper tape readers), a DATA I/O Series 22 PROM Programmer, and the PC. Normally, using the paper tape reader with the prom programmer you have to tell the programmer what format the tape is in before it can read it into memory. I made a special 'Y' cable so that the paper tape reader can get the 24 volts it needs from the prom programmer, but the serial lines from reader goto the PC. If the tape is fan folded (and it sounds like it is) I like to stretch it out down the hallway making sure it flat before it zips through the reader, just in case.... Let me know if I can help. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Aug 11 14:36:28 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: recent additions References: Message-ID: <3B75893C.7713D7BC@tinyworld.co.uk> Matt London wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Mike Kenzie wrote: > > > >my wife says no more machines until the shelves are up! > > Ahh - sounds familar. I got a great setup from rapid racking here > in the UK. There's a (slightly out of date) pic up at > http://knm.yi.org/room.html. > Note the angled monitor shelf :&) Is there a Feng Shui Doctor in the house? Ergonomic emergency in Matt's room! From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Aug 11 15:59:22 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: LISP for VAX/VMS? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010811135850.00b720d8@mail.azstarnet.com> Does anyone know where I can find LISP for VAX/VMS? I want LISP on my 4000/60.... From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 11 16:53:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010811084741.01f3cc98@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <204.623T500T13734445optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 02:53 PM 8/10/01 -0500, Eric wrote >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". Why not use the F10 or F11 key? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 11 17:07:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: recent additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1059.623T2700T13875969optimus@canit.se> Matt London skrev: >On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Mike Kenzie wrote: >[cut] >> IKEA has said that the missing piece to complete the >> shelving will be delayed another 3 weeks, and my wife says >> no more machines until the shelves are up! >Ahh - sounds familar. I got a great setup from rapid racking here in the >UK. There's a (slightly out of date) pic up at http://knm.yi.org/room.html >Note the angled monitor shelf :&) Let's see, that's an Amiga 2000, running release 1.3? And above that, a DECstation 3100? And below the A2000, what's that? I'm actually getting some ideas as to redecorating SUGA's cramped space. =) Nice. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There is also a high quality Fortran from DEC for our engineers, and of course the whole C and LISP programming environments for CS students and other software developers, plus a set of powerful text manipulation utilities like sed, grep, awk, lex, and yacc, whose functions should be obvious from their names. Frank da Cruz & Christine Gianone - "THE DECSYSTEM-20 AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY (1977-1988)" From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Aug 11 16:11:01 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010811170740.00ac5c60@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:51 PM 8/10/01 -0500, you wrote: >In message <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se>, "Iggy Drougge" writes: > >What is the 3B1 based on, then? > >68010 with a custom paged MMU. In a slightly different configuration, >the 3b1 was also known as the 7300. It was also known as the Unix PC". AFIK the only difference between the 7300 and 3B1 was the larger capacity hard drive. The larger drive was a full height model so the top case cover was replaced with one that had a hump in it. Many of the 7300s were modified after they were delivered therefore many are still labeled as 7300s even though they have been modifed to 3B1s. Joe >Brian L. Stuart From dittman at dittman.net Sat Aug 11 16:40:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <204.623T500T13734445optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 11, 2001 10:53:10 PM Message-ID: <200108112140.f7BLej423303@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >At 02:53 PM 8/10/01 -0500, Eric wrote > >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. > > >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". > > Why not use the F10 or F11 key? Because that takes longer than just hitting ^[? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Aug 11 16:56:53 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question References: <204.623T500T13734445optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B75AA25.78A60F9A@tinyworld.co.uk> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Carlos Murillo skrev: > > >At 02:53 PM 8/10/01 -0500, Eric wrote > >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. > > >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". > > Why not use the F10 or F11 key? F11 only generates raw ESC in VT100 mode, which has other drawbacks. From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 11 19:05:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B75AA25.78A60F9A@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <339.624T1400T654861optimus@canit.se> Paul Williams skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. >> >> >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". >> >> Why not use the F10 or F11 key? >F11 only generates raw ESC in VT100 mode, which has other drawbacks. What was DEC's logic behind the exclusion of a proper escape key? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 11 19:03:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108112140.f7BLej423303@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <424.624T2200T636001optimus@canit.se> Eric Dittman skrev: >> >At 02:53 PM 8/10/01 -0500, Eric wrote >> >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. >> >> >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". >> >> Why not use the F10 or F11 key? >Because that takes longer than just hitting ^[? No, it doesn't. Besides, our LK201s don't have any ] key to hit. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Alle Verallgemeinerungen sind gef?hrlich, sogar diese. --- Alexandre Dumas der ?ltere From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1225.monmouth.com Sat Aug 11 19:10:20 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1225.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <339.624T1400T654861optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Aug 12, 2001 01:05:28 am" Message-ID: <200108120010.f7C0ALY27460@bg-tc-ppp1225.monmouth.com> > Paul Williams skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> > >> >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. > >> > >> >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". > >> > >> Why not use the F10 or F11 key? > > >F11 only generates raw ESC in VT100 mode, which has other drawbacks. > > What was DEC's logic behind the exclusion of a proper escape key? The use of ESC [ for ANSI CRT control use was pretty hard for some people to code for relying on time between characters and all... So they tried to discourage the use of ESCAPE for anything other than cursor control. They did include it on the keyboard -- just made it less than useful for touch typists. (and vi Unix users...> Some folks used to use Control-S in their software which also was a bitch to deal with on DEC terminals and printers. (emacs? WS -- i know> Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From dittman at dittman.net Sat Aug 11 19:11:46 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <424.624T2200T636001optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 12, 2001 01:03:44 AM Message-ID: <200108120011.f7C0Bkb23445@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> >At 02:53 PM 8/10/01 -0500, Eric wrote > >> >> I'll also often use ^[ for ESC. > >> > >> >A must when using DEC keyboards with "vi". > >> > >> Why not use the F10 or F11 key? > > >Because that takes longer than just hitting ^[? > > No, it doesn't. > Besides, our LK201s don't have any ] key to hit. =) I take it you're not a touch typist, then. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 11 21:54:26 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108120010.f7C0ALY27460@bg-tc-ppp1225.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20010811214618.I50358-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > Some folks used to use Control-S in their software which also was a > bitch to deal with on DEC terminals and printers. (emacs? WS -- i > know> The first classiccmpy thing I ever did (remember, I'm relatively new :-)) was attach a VT220 to what was then my Linux box so that I could code on it while my girlfriend (now wife) surfed www. I ran into that particular problem in emacs when doing that experiment. What was fun about the whole thing was the set of interesting ways I could, umm, modify her X session from my VT220. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Aug 11 22:24:04 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: In a message dated 8/11/01 11:00:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pdp11@bellsouth.net writes: << I'm in Sanford (just north of Orlado), Sounds like a personal problem to me ;>) << so this sounds cool. Come on down! << It would be nice if somebody other than me showed up with some DEC PDP stuff :) I hope so too. << I am sure I have some PC bits and maybe a few Sun bits to get rid of. Look for my post on ccmp regarding the PC stuff. << BTW: glenatacme? Which Acme are you at? >> We are: ACME Discount Computers 5511 W. Colonial Drive Orlando, FL 32808 (407) 296-2333 Serving you since '92. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 11 23:09:57 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:11:01 -0400 . <5.1.0.14.1.20010811170740.00ac5c60@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: In message <5.1.0.14.1.20010811170740.00ac5c60@mailhost.intellistar.net>, joe w rites: >At 10:51 PM 8/10/01 -0500, you wrote: >>In message <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se>, "Iggy Drougge" writes: >> >What is the 3B1 based on, then? >> >>68010 with a custom paged MMU. In a slightly different configuration, >>the 3b1 was also known as the 7300. > > It was also known as the Unix PC". AFIK the only difference between >the 7300 and 3B1 was the larger capacity hard drive. The larger drive was a >full height model so the top case cover was replaced with one that had a >hump in it. Many of the 7300s were modified after they were delivered >therefore many are still labeled as 7300s even though they have been >modifed to 3B1s. There was some debate over whether the 3b1s also had a little bit heaftier power supply to handle the full height drives. There never seemed to be a really definitive answer, but it seemed to me that it was the same capacity, but had a different connection to the drive. Brian From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 12 00:16:24 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: any Onyx Z8000s out there? Message-ID: <1b4d01c122ed$eeb7c8e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I remember from my highschool days, the local Computerland (remember those?) had a lovely Onyx Z8000 machine that ran some flavor of unix. I seem to recall it had most of the unix commands available on the local university's PDP11/45 running v7, and that the architecture somewhat resembled a PDP11... Anyone have this machine? It was strictly a business box - serial ports, no bitmapped video, no video at all. It must have been in the early 80's when Apple II's were in vogue (and cost $CDN3000) and the Onyx was $CDN30K.. I could only find this blurb on a google search: a.. 1980:Onyx introduces the Onyx C8002 microcomputer. It features a Zilog Z8000 microprocessor, 256KB RAM, tape backup, hard disk, serial ports for eight users, and running Unix, for US$20,000. It is the first microcomputer featuring an implementation of Unix. cheers, Heinz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010812/d30f6171/attachment.html From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Aug 12 01:05:45 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: ; from blstuart@bellsouth.net on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:53:36PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010811230545.A14016@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:53:36PM -0500, blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > In message , Tony Duell writes: > >Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output > >and ^Q to restart it? > > I still do, sometimes at least. The output has gotten faster > (and I've probably gotten slower). So it's a lot harder to > control how many lines I let scroll than it was 20 years ago. And not only faster, but less responsive. It takes a while after you press ^S for the output to stop. I don't know if the cause is network design, the design of UNIX, or both. From jss at subatomix.com Sun Aug 12 02:32:30 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:20 2005 Subject: Badly Warped Boards Message-ID: <20010812022637.H50358-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I've come across a UNIBUS board that is seriously warped -- so badly warped that some of the components directly on the curve have snapped in half. I've seen others like it during various scrapyard excursions. What causes this deformation? Can it be repaired? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Aug 12 07:12:28 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010812080943.00ac9d30@mailhost.intellistar.net> I have computer that's mounted in box that's slightly larger than a shoebox that contains a PDP-11/23 CPU, 8" floppy drive, hard drive along with RAM, I/O etc. It has RSX-11M installed. I'm debating bringing it to the junk fest. However I have no idea what it's worth. Joe At 11:24 PM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 8/11/01 11:00:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >pdp11@bellsouth.net writes: > ><< I'm in Sanford (just north of Orlado), > >Sounds like a personal problem to me ;>) > ><< so this sounds cool. > >Come on down! > ><< It would be nice if somebody other than me showed up with some DEC PDP > stuff :) > >I hope so too. > ><< I am sure I have some PC bits and maybe a few Sun bits to get rid of. > >Look for my post on ccmp regarding the PC stuff. > ><< BTW: glenatacme? Which Acme are you at? >> > >We are: > >ACME Discount Computers >5511 W. Colonial Drive >Orlando, FL 32808 > >(407) 296-2333 > >Serving you since '92. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Aug 12 07:16:30 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010812081308.00acd1b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:09 PM 8/11/01 -0500, Brian wrote: >In message <5.1.0.14.1.20010811170740.00ac5c60@mailhost.intellistar.net>, >joe w >rites: > >At 10:51 PM 8/10/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>In message <898.623T1600T2555249optimus@canit.se>, "Iggy Drougge" writes: > >> >What is the 3B1 based on, then? > >> > >>68010 with a custom paged MMU. In a slightly different configuration, > >>the 3b1 was also known as the 7300. > > > > It was also known as the Unix PC". AFIK the only difference between > >the 7300 and 3B1 was the larger capacity hard drive. The larger drive was a > >full height model so the top case cover was replaced with one that had a > >hump in it. Many of the 7300s were modified after they were delivered > >therefore many are still labeled as 7300s even though they have been > >modifed to 3B1s. > >There was some debate over whether the 3b1s also had a little >bit heaftier power supply to handle the full height drives. >There never seemed to be a really definitive answer, but >it seemed to me that it was the same capacity, but had a >different connection to the drive. I think you're right. However I think a lot of 7300 also got retrofitted with the beefier supply. I *think* there was also an improved fan that was released at about the time. But I don't remembef if it was part of the modified PS or if it was a separate mod. The old fans were notorious for stopping and allowing the system to overheat and burn itself up. Joe From rdd at smart.net Sun Aug 12 11:29:59 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: LISP for VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010811135850.00b720d8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find LISP for VAX/VMS? I want LISP on my > 4000/60.... Emacs. :-) ...also, I think there was a LISP from DEC for VAXen running VMS, but I've read that it was slow. Also, I think someone ported Scheme84 to VAX/VMS. A quick Google search wasn't too helpful in actually finding the software, however. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sun Aug 12 11:31:36 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question References: <339.624T1400T654861optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B76AF68.B27B1E30@tinyworld.co.uk> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Paul Williams skrev: > > > >F11 only generates raw ESC in VT100 mode, which has other drawbacks. > > What was DEC's logic behind the exclusion of a proper escape key? I'm not sure what you mean by "proper" escape key. If you would like a key that sends a code that is interpreted by applications as meaning "cancel" or "exit insert mode", that is fine. However, this key shouldn't send the control code ESC and expect the application to do something with this code alone. That usage should have been considered obsolete by the first issue of ASCII in 1963. ESC alters the meanings of a certain number of following characters. I would think that DEC's exclusion of a key that sends ESC alone was a consequence of placing a number of function keys on the keyboard. If you put a keys "F1" to "F20" or "Select" or "Help" on the keyboard, you quickly run out of 7-bit codes that they could send. Using ESC as an introducer gives you an extensible system, in the spirit of ANSI X3.64. (I know X3.64 doesn't define keyboard codes, but the mechanism is identical). I think Bill Joy developed vi on an ADM-3a, but I don't know anything about the control codes for that terminal, so I don't know whether it might have been considered safe to use a lone ESC in that situation. As for Emacs' use of ^S to mean something other than XOFF, that is plain broken. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 12:50:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Badly Warped Boards In-Reply-To: <20010812022637.H50358-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >I've come across a UNIBUS board that is seriously warped -- so badly >warped that some of the components directly on the curve have snapped in >half. I've seen others like it during various scrapyard excursions. What >causes this deformation? Can it be repaired? > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com I've got an OMNIBUS board from my PDP-8/m that was warped, though not this bad. It's bad enough however that the traces were cracked. To make matters worse it is part of a core stack. What caused it was wiring twisting it into a non-flat configuration. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 12:52:17 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: LISP for VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010811135850.00b720d8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: >On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: >> Does anyone know where I can find LISP for VAX/VMS? I want LISP on my >> 4000/60.... > >Emacs. :-) > >...also, I think there was a LISP from DEC for VAXen running VMS, but >I've read that it was slow. Also, I think someone ported Scheme84 to >VAX/VMS. A quick Google search wasn't too helpful in actually finding >the software, however. A Google (aka Dejanews) search should however dig up a long thread in comp.os.vms on just this topic about 1-2 months ago. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 12 13:54:40 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010812080943.00ac9d30@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010812114816.01aefa80@209.185.79.193> How could you not know what its worth? If its yours then you know how much its worth to "keep it" and thus anything more than that is a what its worth for someone to take it off your hands. Now I can understand if you're struggling with the issue of wanting to keep it but external forces such as spouses, storage requirements etc, are forcing you to part with it. Then the question of how much would it take before I would part with this jewel becomes more difficult to answer. If the question was actually, "However, I don't know what the maximum amount of money a single individual would pay for this system in this condition." Then the _only_ way to answer that question is to put it on Ebay which has a reasonably large sample size of people who might be interested in that system and are prepared to pay for it. Finally, the meta-issue is, if you're actually asking the second question then you shouldn't take it to a group of like minded individuals swapping "junk." You'll never get the "Ebay price" at a hamfest or a boot sale or junkfest, the market segment is large enough and there is generally no mechanism for adjusting the price dynamically. --Chuck At 08:12 AM 8/12/01 -0400, you wrote: > I have computer that's mounted in box that's slightly larger than a > shoebox that contains a PDP-11/23 CPU, 8" floppy drive, hard drive along > with RAM, I/O etc. It has RSX-11M installed. I'm debating bringing it to > the junk fest. However I have no idea what it's worth. > Joe From foxnhare at jps.net Sun Aug 12 14:11:20 2001 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #683 References: <200108090735.CAA35339@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B76D4D6.B7007EDB@jps.net> > Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:33:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > Subject: Re: Finds in Houston > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > Not exactly. Certain people are still buying monitors working or > not. One > > of my friends just brokered a deal on 3,000 old apple monitors. Not nice > > big ones either, but old 14" monitors. > > You have unusual friends. Or one friend who is REALLY strange. > Hmmmm. Why would a spammer want thousands of old monitors,. . . > Maybe for the viseogame market, if they are 14" composite color monitors, the apple ones have really good picture tubes... If they are VGA, they also have good picture tubes and possibly are also for the video games matket or maybe for a cheap all-in one internet appliance. As a Commodore fan it can be hard to get Commodore composite monitors because most other classic computerists/gamers know how good some of them are. -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 16:14:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: HP 1820-1691 microprocessor pinout Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 686 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010812/f9a4cacd/attachment.ksh From Chris at omtsalvage.com Sun Aug 12 19:50:54 2001 From: Chris at omtsalvage.com (Chris Hoaglin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: HP-85A problems..dead CPU? Message-ID: <47143364702.20010812175054@omtsalvage.com> I put my 85A back together today after fixing the power supply..Now it seems to be DOA from a short circuit caused by a misaligned flexprint strip connecting the PSU to the CPU board. The symptoms are: The CRT works, but no characters are displayed. Typing on the keyboard does not produce text either. The chip on the left rear of the CPU board, just in front of the two flexprint cables leading to the ROM drawer, gets rather hot almost immediately. None of the other chips exhibit this heat problem. This chip is marked "IMA8 0101 82055 SINGAPORE", and I believe it is the CPU because of the connection to the ROM drawer. One of the pins on this chip is connected to one of the traces on the flexprint involved in the short. Questions: Does anybody have a schematic for the 85? If this is the CPU, what pins should I be looking at for the clock? If the chip is shot, is there any way to get a replacement, or do I have to cannibalize another 85? mailto:Chris@omtsalvage.com From rhudson at cnonline.net Sun Aug 12 17:27:10 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: [ot?] request for comment Message-ID: <3B7702BE.7010909@cnonline.net> I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all I can find is the Instruction Set, none of how the instructions are implemented. So, I decieded to write my own... Here is the instruction set, I thought it best to consult with you all before beginning to code. What do you think? Opcodes 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Z N o1 o2 o3 ================================================================= Z N 0 0 1 i r r get copy (indirect) register rr to acx Z N 0 1 0 i r r put copy (indirect) acx to register rr Z N 0 1 1 o o o Mathop 0 0 0 nop 0 0 1 add acx + acy ==> acx 0 1 0 sub acx - acy ==> acx 0 1 1 and acx & acy ==> acx 1 0 0 exor acx xor acy ==> acx 1 0 1 or acx | acy ==> acx 1 1 0 cmp acx cmp acy set Z and N 1 1 1 cpz acx cmp 0 set Z and N Z N 1 0 0 p p p inp copy port ppp ==> acx Z N 1 0 1 p p p out copy acx ==> port ppp Z N 1 1 0 i r r swp acx ==> (ind) Rn == > acx Z N 1 1 1 0 o o acx op group 0 0 0 not r1 <== ! r1 0 0 1 shl Shift left 0 1 0 shr Shift right 0 1 1 inc Increment r1 <== r1 + 1 Z N 1 1 1 1 o o Jump Group 1 0 0 jmp ind [pc] pc <== [pc] 1 0 1 jsr ind [pc] R2 <== pc , pc <== [pc] 1 1 0 rtn pc <== R2 1 1 1 Halt,reset [pc] <== 0 Zero and Negative flags On execution of the cmp and cpz instructions the Z and N flags are set, following instructions can test these flags and choose to execute or not. Z N Meaning 0 0 Execute if acx was positive on test (acx > 0 / acx > acy) 0 1 Execute if acx was negative on test (acx < 0 / acx < acy) 1 0 Execute if acx was zeron on test (acx = 0 / acx = acy) 1 1 Always execute Registers 00 r0 acx 1st operand 01 r1 acy 2nd operand 10 r2 ptr Pointer register 11 r3 pc Program Counter here is an example of an assembled program.... Assembly of a simple program org $10 ; program starts at 10 10 get ind pc ; load value1 acy 10 11001111 00010000 adr value1 11 00011001 00010001 swp acy 12 11110110 00010010 get ind pc ; load value2 acx 13 11001111 00010011 adr value2 14 00011010 00010100 add ; sum values 15 11011001 00010101 put ind pc ; store sum 16 11010111 00010110 adr sum 17 00011011 00010111 hlt ; end of program 18 11111111 00011000 value1 byt 19 00011001 value2 byt 1A 00011010 sum byt 1B 00011011 end ; end of code I know, it only has 256 words of 8 bit memory, but isn't this as much as some of the early machines? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 16:53:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: HP-85A problems..dead CPU? In-Reply-To: <47143364702.20010812175054@omtsalvage.com> from "Chris Hoaglin" at Aug 12, 1 05:50:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1552 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010812/b9e82941/attachment.ksh From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Aug 12 17:12:16 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? References: <60a8nt4el113qm2clu8jqi384thl862to9@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3B76FF40.BD3864B5@idirect.com> >Bill Richman wrote: > A local computer scrapper has invited me out to look at some stuff > he's got before he strips it and ships it out this weekend. He > described it as a "rack full of PDP/84's with tape backups". He > thinks there are three systems in the rack, and he mentioned that it > was used for some sort of telephone switching system. Does anybody > have any interest in saving this stuff? Jerome Fine replies: While the power supply and backplane are heavy (if I remember), the actual boards are probably worth saving. The CPU itself is a Qbus board, but the memory is NOT Qbus compatible. And the rest of the boards will be Unibus. I see that there was a deadline. Did anything get saved? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Aug 12 17:12:43 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question References: Message-ID: <3B76FF5B.86AD1555@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output > and ^Q to restart it? Jerome Fine replies: Absolutely NOT!! But I find that I rarely do so except on the VT220 and upward compatible VTxxx terminals. However, while ^S/^Q work equally well on a VT100, the "NO/SCROLL" key at the lower left of the VT100 keyboard seems to be much more convenient. IN ADDITION, I also run RT-11 on my PC using the E11 emulator (which includes most of the emulation for VT100 - and also allows for some portions of the VT220 keyboard to be easily activated). In this environment, ^S/^Q also works correctly, BUT I FIND IT MUCH TOO SLOW!!!!! When that aspect is added to the (initially) awkward location of the "Ctrl" key, "Caps Lock" key and lack of a NO/SCROLL key, I finally decided to change the "Caps Lock" key into the "Ctrl" key AND change the "Ctrl" key into the "NO/SCROLL" key. Then keyscripts under E11 also allows me to then use the "Caps Lock" key in a double duty mode - if any one (or more) of the "Shift/Ctrl/Alt" keys are depressed before the "Caps Lock" key is depressed, then the "Caps Lock" function changes from "Ctrl" back to "Caps Lock". The implementation of the NO/SCROLL key (using the PC keyboard "Ctrl" key) is a bit unusual and takes getting used to, but is the best way I could find to handle the situation. First, I implemented: DEFINE KEYPRESS LCTRL = CHR$(19) DEFINE KEYRELEASE LCTRL = CHR$(17) Even though ^S/^Q are still available, under E11 the screen display is so rapid that I can't seem to be fast enough between ^Q and ^S to allow only a small number of lines to be displayed. >I still do, sometimes at least. The output has gotten faster >(and I've probably gotten slower). So it's a lot harder to >control how many lines I let scroll than it was 20 years ago. >Brian L. Stuart On the other hand, under E11, the above two definitions seem much more responsive. I find it is possible to "KEYRELEASE" followed by "KEYPRESS" on the "LCTRL" key just about twice as fast as I can ever "^Q/^S" when I am running RT-11 under E11. Note that with a standard VTxxx terminal, this is never necessary since the serial nature of the interface limits the speed of the display. When the "console" is the monitor on the PC, the output display seems to be at least 100 times as fast. One addition that I added to the use of the "LCTRL" as the "NO/SCROLL" equivalent was: DEFINE KEYPRESS LCTRL = CHR$(19) : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA DEFINE KEYRELEASE LCTRL = & IF NOT SHIFT THEN CHR$(17) : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA : ENDIF This allows the user to stop the "^Q" during the "KEYRELEASE" by first pressing the "SHIFT" key, either with the right finger or (I find it somewhat more convenient) using "left Peter Pointer" for the "LCTRL" key and "left Toby Tall" at the same time for the "LSHIFT" key while "left Peter Pointer" is being released. If anyone else likes this, please let me know. Perhaps we can get John Wilson to make this a standard feature. I have included "S1.CMD" for those who want the complete file. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine ========================================================= ! DEFINITIONS for "CAPS LOCK" and "LCTRL" ! by Jerome Fine (C) Copyright 2001 - All Rights Reserved ! It is expected that this file will be made available by ! John Wilson at the Dbit site. There is no charge for this file. ! ! This file changes the distribution definitions for Ersatz-11 ! (Copyright by John Wilson) of the CAPS LOCK and LCTRL keys. ! There are two reasons: ! (a) The standard PC keyboard differs from the emulated VT100 ! keyboard in that the (ONLY) CTRL key is on the same row as ! the "ASDFGHJKL" keys. Although the VT100 CAPS LOCK key ! is also on the same row (between the CTRL key and the "A" ! key), the CAPS LOCK key is rarely used while the CTRL key ! is used far more often. Consequently, it is far more ! important to allow the CAPS LOCK key function to be ! replaced by the LCTRL function. ! (b) On the standard VT100 keyboard, the key at the very left- ! most side and bottom (except for the SPACE bar) of the ! keyboard is the NOSCROLL key. It is extremely convenient ! to be able to use a key which has the same function as ! the NOSCROLL key on the VT100 keyboard so as to maintain ! as much compatibility as possible. ! Note, however, that the definitions in this file make a very ! significant change in the action of the NOSCROLL key functionality ! which differs from that of the standard VT100 keyboard. Whereas ! for the VT100, depressing the NOSCROLL key TOGGLES the status, ! the definitions in this file require the user to hold down the ! NOSCROLL key (which is labelled as the LCTRL key) to enable the ! function of NOSCROLL to continue to be active. Releasing the ! NOSCROLL key deactivates the desired functionality and allows ! scrolling to continue. If this aspect is deemed to be too ! different, then a second file is available for which the desired ! functionality is identical. However, the user will probably find ! that the definitions in this file allow for a much faster response ! between activating and deactivating the scrolling and for this reason, ! the definitions in this file may be preferred. ! ! One very practical addition has been made to this version of the ! definitions. In some cases, the user may wish to keep scrolling ! off and still be able to release the LCTRL key. For this case, if ! the user first presses the SHIFT key, then the LCTRL key will not ! send the CTRL/Q = CHR$(17) character to the emulated PDP-11 which ! again activates scrolling. Instead, the user may release the LCTRL ! key until such time as scrolling is again desired. Assuming that ! no keys are already being held (all keys are off - released), then ! pressing LCTRL will send a second CTRL/S (which will have no effect). ! At this point, releasing the LCTRL will have the usual effect of ! sending a CTRL/Q = CHR$(17) and scrolling will again begin. ! DEFINE KEYPRESS CAPSLOCK = & IF ALT OR CTRL OR SHIFT THEN & TOGGLE CAPS : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA & ELSE & SET LCTRL : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA & ENDIF DEFINE KEYRELEASE CAPSLOCK = & IF LCTRL THEN CLEAR LCTRL : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA : ENDIF DEFINE KEYPRESS LCTRL = CHR$(19) : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA DEFINE KEYRELEASE LCTRL = & IF NOT SHIFT THEN CHR$(17) : NONREPEATING : NOREPEATS : NONDATA : ENDIF ================================================================== From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 12 18:10:27 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: [ot?] request for comment In-Reply-To: <3B7702BE.7010909@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010812160822.023a0bc0@209.185.79.193> I have a CARDIAC, perhaps I could scan the booklet for you. Or would you like to build something unique? I have a similar project called SIMPLEX which is a PDP/CARDIAC/uP inspired instructional computer architecture. --Chuck At 03:27 PM 8/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard slide >the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all I can >find is the Instruction Set, none of how the instructions are implemented. > >So, I decieded to write my own... >Here is the instruction set, I thought it best to consult with you all >before beginning to code. What >do you think? >Opcodes > >0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >Z N o1 o2 o3 >================================================================= >Z N 0 0 1 i r r get copy (indirect) register rr to acx > >Z N 0 1 0 i r r put copy (indirect) acx to register rr > >Z N 0 1 1 o o o Mathop > > 0 0 0 nop > 0 0 1 add acx + acy ==> acx > 0 1 0 sub acx - acy ==> acx > 0 1 1 and acx & acy ==> acx > 1 0 0 exor acx xor acy ==> acx > 1 0 1 or acx | acy ==> acx > 1 1 0 cmp acx cmp acy set Z and N > 1 1 1 cpz acx cmp 0 set Z and N > >Z N 1 0 0 p p p inp copy port ppp ==> acx > >Z N 1 0 1 p p p out copy acx ==> port ppp > >Z N 1 1 0 i r r swp acx ==> (ind) Rn == > acx > >Z N 1 1 1 0 o o acx op group > > 0 0 0 not r1 <== ! r1 > 0 0 1 shl Shift left > 0 1 0 shr Shift right > 0 1 1 inc Increment r1 <== r1 + 1 > >Z N 1 1 1 1 o o Jump Group > > 1 0 0 jmp ind [pc] pc <== [pc] > 1 0 1 jsr ind [pc] R2 <== pc , pc <== [pc] > 1 1 0 rtn pc <== R2 > 1 1 1 Halt,reset [pc] <== 0 > >Zero and Negative flags > >On execution of the cmp and cpz instructions the Z and N flags are >set, following instructions can test these flags and choose to execute >or not. > >Z N Meaning >0 0 Execute if acx was positive on test (acx > 0 / acx > acy) >0 1 Execute if acx was negative on test (acx < 0 / acx < acy) >1 0 Execute if acx was zeron on test (acx = 0 / acx = acy) >1 1 Always execute > > >Registers >00 r0 acx 1st operand >01 r1 acy 2nd operand >10 r2 ptr Pointer register >11 r3 pc Program Counter > > >here is an example of an assembled program.... > >Assembly of a simple program > > org $10 ; program starts at 10 10 > > get ind pc ; load value1 acy 10 11001111 00010000 > adr value1 11 00011001 00010001 > swp acy 12 11110110 00010010 > > get ind pc ; load value2 acx 13 11001111 00010011 > adr value2 14 00011010 00010100 > > add ; sum values 15 11011001 00010101 > > put ind pc ; store sum 16 11010111 00010110 > adr sum 17 00011011 00010111 > > hlt ; end of program 18 11111111 00011000 > >value1 byt 19 00011001 >value2 byt 1A 00011010 >sum byt 1B 00011011 > > > end ; end of code > > > >I know, it only has 256 words of 8 bit memory, but isn't this as much as >some of the early machines? > From anheier at owt.com Sun Aug 12 18:25:31 2001 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm & Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: PDP11/84 up for grabs Message-ID: I have a PDP11/84 (H7204) chassis available with the following boards: M8190 - no cpu M8191 N8637 M7556 M7547 M7860 M7860 M3105 M8789 M9202 M8648 M9302 M9049 unlabeled board The chassis has the power supply, no cables. The front PDP panel has some scratches and cracks. Operational condition is unknown, but the boards and chassis look to be in great shape. Please contact me DIRECTLY with your offer. Buyer pays shipping from postal code 99352 at around 100 lbs. Thanks Norm Anheier anheier@owt.com From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 12 19:47:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010812114816.01aefa80@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <950.625T800T1074657optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >Finally, the meta-issue is, if you're actually asking the second question >then you shouldn't take it to a group of like minded individuals swapping >"junk." You'll never get the "Ebay price" at a hamfest or a boot sale or >junkfest, the market segment is large enough and there is generally no >mechanism for adjusting the price dynamically. I think you're missing a point. At a swap meet arranged by enthusiasts, the price/value question turns into a question of what's a nice asking price, not necessarily how much an eBay shopper is prepared to pay, but rather how ,much one may ask without taking advantage of someone who might help you at the next meet. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 12 20:06:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #683 In-Reply-To: <3B76D4D6.B7007EDB@jps.net> Message-ID: <1170.625T1150T1264863optimus@canit.se> Larry Anderson skrev: >> Hmmmm. Why would a spammer want thousands of old monitors,. . . >> >Maybe for the viseogame market, if they are 14" composite color >monitors, the apple ones have really good picture tubes... If they are >VGA, they also have good picture tubes and possibly are also for the >video games matket or maybe for a cheap all-in one internet appliance. Most arcade cabinets I've seen have used something more like 20" screens, not 13" ones, though I suppose that could be fixed by moving the screen so that its reflection would be bigger. But don't arcade games use 15KHz screens usually? >As a Commodore fan it can be hard to get Commodore composite monitors >because most other classic computerists/gamers know how good some of >them are. Then again they're easier to get than other screens. And more versatile, of course. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that. - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 12 20:01:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B76AF68.B27B1E30@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <1714.625T300T1214141optimus@canit.se> Paul Williams skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Paul Williams skrev: >> > >> >F11 only generates raw ESC in VT100 mode, which has other drawbacks. >> >> What was DEC's logic behind the exclusion of a proper escape key? >I'm not sure what you mean by "proper" escape key. If you would like a >key that sends a code that is interpreted by applications as meaning >"cancel" or "exit insert mode", that is fine. However, this key >shouldn't send the control code ESC and expect the application to do >something with this code alone. That usage should have been considered >obsolete by the first issue of ASCII in 1963. ESC alters the meanings of >a certain number of following characters. >I would think that DEC's exclusion of a key that sends ESC alone was a >consequence of placing a number of function keys on the keyboard. If you >put a keys "F1" to "F20" or "Select" or "Help" on the keyboard, you >quickly run out of 7-bit codes that they could send. Using ESC as an >introducer gives you an extensible system, in the spirit of ANSI X3.64. >(I know X3.64 doesn't define keyboard codes, but the mechanism is >identical). IOW, historical reasons. =) Mind you, DEC terminals are the only remotely modern systems which I've used lacking a key marked ESC(ape) which does something useful with vi. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga: (noun) The most technologically advanced computer that hardly anyone cares about. Use in sentence: "I wanted to buy an Amiga for its low price and great color graphics, but everyone else seems to be using IBMs or Macintoshes. So, to remain compatible with the rest of the world, I spent three times as much on a Macintosh and got only half the graphics capability of an Amiga." From Glenatacme at aol.com Sun Aug 12 19:25:08 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: CF Computer Junk Fest Message-ID: <51.fa49932.28a87864@aol.com> Greetings: I've volunteered to have the Junk Fest on the property where my computer shop is. I'm looking forward to it and hope that it's successful enough to happen again on a regular basis (either at my place or somewhere else). Central Florida needs more of this kind of action, IMHO, and I'm glad to be able to help. For those who aren't aware, this event will take place on Saturday, Sept. 8, starting at 9 AM. I'd like to ask everyone who's planning on bringing stuff for sale, trade, etc. to email me ASAP so that I have some idea how many of you there are. DO NOT email to my return address, but to acme_ent@bellsouth.net. Upon receipt of your email I'll drop you a note including exact directions to the shop. I'd also like to ask that everyone keep the PC-related items to a minimum: please don't bring a van full of 386s (and if you do, please don't abandon them -- or anything else --in my parking lot after the event is over). Also, DON'T arrive expecting to sell brand-new PC items, since this is what I sell in my store and I don't need the competition ;>) Hopefully we'll have a nice crowd and a lot of fun. Please send your comments, suggestions, gripes, etc., to my bellsouth.net address. Regards, Glen 0/0 From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 12 18:27:55 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Exhibitors Wanted! Message-ID: Are you exhibiting at VCF 5.0? http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/exhibit.php Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Mon Aug 13 01:03:19 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: New stuff Message-ID: <20010813090319.B2158@mail.er-grp.com> A reasonable weekend: - HP 9000/834 + 7959 disk with HP-UX 8.x. Another one of those "don't know root password, must play evil [cr][h]acker". My first ever PA-RISC :-) - HP 3000 Micro GX. I don't know anything about MPE and I don't know the manager (?) password. Must learn more. My first ever 3k :-) - HP 700-RX. Beats the pants of my old(er) 700-X. This one is usable for xpilot. - DEC VT-1200. A reasonable compliment to the pile of VXT-2000's. - Random junk. And as nearly always, no documents at all. Interestingly the 834 case is the same as the 9000/550 case. Does anyone have any pointers to easy MPE documentation ? -- jht From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Mon Aug 13 02:34:07 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: ^X (was: an odd question Message-ID: > Am I the only person here who instinctively uses ^S to halt screen output > and ^Q to restart it? Nope, I still find ^S/^Q useful for suspending/resuming Java apps when they output an appropriate debug string :-) -al From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Mon Aug 13 02:57:41 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Terminals Message-ID: > AT&T carpet-bombed Georgia Tech with 3b2s when I was there (~1985), so I > used them quite a bit at the time. Actually really nice when used with the > 5620 BLIT graphics terminals. I'd love to have one of those. I remember the shock I got when I was first introduced to the 5620, having just moved to AT&T from Xerox :-) My new boss was surprised to see my lack of enthusiasm, since I was "one of the lucky ones" to have a 5620 instead of the HP terminals (2620?) everyone else was using.. I'd just come from an environment where all development was done on D-machines with 21" monitors, suddenly I'm looking at a strange A4ish sized terminal which was hooked up to an Amdahl mainframe along with the rest of the site... whoa, culture shock! The mouse was the oddest thing I ever saw, a huge red half-globe thing with three huge clicky switches right on the rim, very uncomfortable to use. I was sad to see it go when a year or so later they upgraded a bunch of terminals to 630s with orange screens... orange on black never really worked for me :-) By the time I left AT&T they'd belatedly joined the desktop revolution and had equipped everyone with Sun IPXs, but the old centralised mainframe mentality never quite went away... all our home directories were remote mounted from a central server :-) Happy daze! -al From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es Mon Aug 13 03:14:48 2001 From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: New stuff References: <20010813090319.B2158@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <005b01c123d0$0a79aac0$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> http://www.docs.hp.com/mpeix/ Regards Sergio ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Para: Enviado: lunes, 13 de agosto de 2001 08:03:a.m. Asunto: New stuff > A reasonable weekend: > - HP 9000/834 + 7959 disk with HP-UX 8.x. Another one of those "don't know > root password, must play evil [cr][h]acker". My first ever PA-RISC :-) > - HP 3000 Micro GX. I don't know anything about MPE and I don't know > the manager (?) password. Must learn more. My first ever 3k :-) > - HP 700-RX. Beats the pants of my old(er) 700-X. This one is usable for > xpilot. > - DEC VT-1200. A reasonable compliment to the pile of VXT-2000's. > - Random junk. > > And as nearly always, no documents at all. Interestingly the 834 case is > the same as the 9000/550 case. > > Does anyone have any pointers to easy MPE documentation ? > > -- > jht From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 13 03:35:10 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's still a lot to be said for mainframes for many of the things that people are now complaining about smaller systems not doing so well with. Things like groupware. Ever used groupware on a mainframe? Incredible. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > I remember the shock I got when I was first introduced to the 5620, having > just moved to AT&T from Xerox :-) My new boss was surprised to see my lack > of enthusiasm, since I was "one of the lucky ones" to have a 5620 instead of > the HP terminals (2620?) everyone else was using.. I'd just come from an > environment where all development was done on D-machines with 21" monitors, > suddenly I'm looking at a strange A4ish sized terminal which was hooked up > to an Amdahl mainframe along with the rest of the site... whoa, culture > shock! The mouse was the oddest thing I ever saw, a huge red half-globe > thing with three huge clicky switches right on the rim, very uncomfortable > to use. > > I was sad to see it go when a year or so later they upgraded a bunch of > terminals to 630s with orange screens... orange on black never really worked > for me :-) > > By the time I left AT&T they'd belatedly joined the desktop revolution and > had equipped everyone with Sun IPXs, but the old centralised mainframe > mentality never quite went away... all our home directories were remote > mounted from a central server :-) > > Happy daze! > -al > From nielsph at worldonline.dk Mon Aug 13 05:34:17 2001 From: nielsph at worldonline.dk (Niels Pauli Hansen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: National Semi 32000 ICs available Message-ID: <000301c123e3$81854df0$0301a8c0@dell> Hello Ken Seefried Ive just read the following at http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/2001-04/3528.html > Start I've recently come into a cache of National Semiconductor 32000 series ICs that I would be willing to part with for someone who is repairing something vintage that uses them. Contact me with what you can use and what you will use it for. The part #s are: ns32301 ns32302 ns32303 ns32081 ns16032 ns32008 ns16082 ns32082 ns32332 ns32382 > End Im currently searching for an NS32081N-15 FPU for repairing a Canon LBP4 laser printer. Im very interested to hear if you have the above mentioned device and what it costs. I live in Denmark, but I hope thats not a problem. Looking forward to hear from you. Best regards Niels Pauli Hansen From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Aug 13 07:53:22 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CD0@MAIL10> Iggy: >>Celebrate?? Well, "celebrate" in the broadest sense of the word. The PC may not be perfect, but warts and all, it's about the best thing that could have happened to my stock portfolio :-) Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:00 PM To: Cini, Richard Subject: Re: PeeCee turns 20 Cini, Richard skrev: > It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking >for something to celebrate :-) Celebrate??? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 13 10:48:54 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: WE32100 (was: Re: What's your coolest ISA card?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010811170740.00ac5c60@mailhost.intellistar.net> from joe at "Aug 11, 2001 05:11:01 pm" Message-ID: <200108131548.IAA18649@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > >68010 with a custom paged MMU. In a slightly different configuration, > >the 3b1 was also known as the 7300. > > It was also known as the Unix PC". AFIK the only difference between > the 7300 and 3B1 was the larger capacity hard drive. Fortunately the interface is standard ST506. When I got my 7300, the first thing I did was put in a half-height 40MB drive. The smaller drive is pretty constraining with newer versions of the OS, especially in you've got add-ons. Eric From matt at knm.yi.org Mon Aug 13 12:12:52 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Keyboard for VT320 Message-ID: Hi, A friend of mine was recently given a vt320 - unfortunatly it's keyboardless - don't spose anyone's got one spare (preferably in the UK)? -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From Gary.Messick at itt.com Mon Aug 13 13:08:49 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 Technical Info. Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B40@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Does anyone have any technical documentation for a Hazeltine 1500? I just plugged mine in, and it seems that I have some problems. I'm getting cap. O's in the top half of the display, and overtyping does not always produce the proper character. Everything's fine on the bottom half of the screen. I'm thinking I have a bad RAM chip. Looking at the board, it's an 8080 with IIRC 21L02's for RAM. I don't own a logic analyzer, and haven't correlated the ASCII codes to see what bit's are stuck. Any help would be appreciated. Gary From mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Aug 13 14:25:07 2001 From: mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu (Matt Wilda) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879CD0@MAIL10> Message-ID: <200108131825.OAA11899@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> About a year and a half ago I had got to take a class at NC State taught by David Bradley, one of the PC's origonal designers. His famous quote was "I may have invented Ctrl-Alt-Del, but Microsoft made it popular." > Iggy: > > >>Celebrate?? > > Well, "celebrate" in the broadest sense of the word. The PC may not > be perfect, but warts and all, it's about the best thing that could have > happened to my stock portfolio :-) > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:00 PM > To: Cini, Richard > Subject: Re: PeeCee turns 20 > > > Cini, Richard skrev: > > > It's tough going through August without a holiday, so I'm looking > >for something to celebrate :-) > > Celebrate??? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. > Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 13 13:27:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Keyboard for VT320 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Look around on Ebay for an LK201 or an LK401. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Matt London wrote: > Hi, > A friend of mine was recently given a vt320 - unfortunatly it's > keyboardless - don't spose anyone's got one spare (preferably in the > UK)? > > -- Matt > > --- > E-mail: > matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net > matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk > mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com > Web Page: > http://knm.yi.org/ > http://pkl.net/~matt/ > > PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > From mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Aug 13 14:40:21 2001 From: mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu (Matt Wilda) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108131840.OAA12050@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Yesterday I decided to fire up my IBM PC for a little birthday celebration, but to my surprise it appeared to be completely dead. The fan hummed but the monitor stayed blank, there were no beeps nor any floppy drive activity. I had had it on display in my office for a while (I worked for IBM; it made a wonderful conversation piece) then I brought it home. I figure something must have gotten damaged while I transported it. All the cards and chips appear to be seated properly. Does anyone have any suggestions? From bills at adrenaline.com Mon Aug 13 14:11:59 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <200108131840.OAA12050@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: > All the cards and chips appear to be seated properly. > Does anyone have any suggestions? Challenge that assumption! Gently rock all of the cards in their slots. Apply _LIGHT_ thumb pressure to all socketed chips. Gently pull and reseat all cables. Also, try bringing it up with the keyboard detached. I've seen blown keyboards prevent original IBM-PCs from booting. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 14:27:35 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... In-Reply-To: <200108131840.OAA12050@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <200108131840.OAA12050@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: I've just had an example of truly excellent service and thought I'd pass it on. For those that don't know, the Apple Powerbook 5300 series is under a 7 year extended repair period due to the type of plastic used in it's casing. Basically, up until sometime next year, if there's a problem on a PB5300 series machine that is attributable to the case, Apple will repair it. Last week, the right hinge mounting block on my PB 5300c broke so I called Apple on Monday. On Tuesday, Airborne Express delivered a box for me to ship the machine back to Apple, on Wed. Airborne picked it back up. It was delievered to Apple on Thursday and it was repaired and given back to Airborne on Friday. Airborne dropped it off at my home just about an hour ago. The machine looks like new and now has been put through the full REA to repair the known problems covered, at no cost to me. I'm not even the original owner of the machine. I know there have been stories about bad service with Apple, but this time they got it right. I've had similar results from IBM in the past with the warranties on thier large capactiy hard disks. It's nice to know good customer service hasn't totally died off. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 13 15:54:30 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: References: <200108131840.OAA12050@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010813135331.02a21440@mail.zipcon.net> If it were me I'd go as far as pulling and reseatign the socketed chips... i'd almost bet that something has oxidized and that's what's keeping you from coming up. probably the 808x itself... At 03:11 PM 8/13/01 -0400, you wrote: > > All the cards and chips appear to be seated properly. > > Does anyone have any suggestions? > >Challenge that assumption! Gently rock all of the cards >in their slots. Apply _LIGHT_ thumb pressure to all socketed >chips. Gently pull and reseat all cables. > >Also, try bringing it up with the keyboard detached. >I've seen blown keyboards prevent original IBM-PCs >from booting. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 15:29:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <200108131840.OAA12050@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> from "Matt Wilda" at Aug 13, 1 02:40:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010813/6276b8a4/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 13 15:47:24 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225604@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I've just had an example of truly excellent service and > thought I'd pass it on. For those that don't know, the Apple > Powerbook 5300 series is under a 7 year extended repair period due to > the type of plastic used in it's casing. Basically, up until > sometime next year, if there's a problem on a PB5300 series machine > that is attributable to the case, Apple will repair it. Last week, > the right hinge mounting block on my PB 5300c broke so I called Apple > on Monday. On Tuesday, Airborne Express delivered a box for me to > ship the machine back to Apple, on Wed. Airborne picked it back up. > It was delievered to Apple on Thursday and it was repaired and given > back to Airborne on Friday. Airborne dropped it off at my home just > about an hour ago. The machine looks like new and now has been put > through the full REA to repair the known problems covered, at no cost > to me. I'm not even the original owner of the machine. We had this service done on the boss' 5300ce back in '96... it's been a trouper ever since. it's plugged into the Prime acting as a serial console (even though the Prime is still down...). -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 15:35:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 Technical Info. In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B40@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> from "Messick, Gary" at Aug 13, 1 01:08:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010813/3ddf1c14/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 13 15:53:44 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah. Two hard disk manufacturers I've never had trouble with are IBM and Fujitsu. The reason I mention Fujitsu is that their highest-end drives, and most of their oldest drives all come/came with a lifetime warranty. There has been many a time when I have found an old SCSI Fujitsu drive lying around broken somewhere, I rescue it, and they fix it up for me. I find that very impressive. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I've just had an example of truly excellent service and > thought I'd pass it on. For those that don't know, the Apple > Powerbook 5300 series is under a 7 year extended repair period due to > the type of plastic used in it's casing. Basically, up until > sometime next year, if there's a problem on a PB5300 series machine > that is attributable to the case, Apple will repair it. Last week, > the right hinge mounting block on my PB 5300c broke so I called Apple > on Monday. On Tuesday, Airborne Express delivered a box for me to > ship the machine back to Apple, on Wed. Airborne picked it back up. > It was delievered to Apple on Thursday and it was repaired and given > back to Airborne on Friday. Airborne dropped it off at my home just > about an hour ago. The machine looks like new and now has been put > through the full REA to repair the known problems covered, at no cost > to me. I'm not even the original owner of the machine. > > I know there have been stories about bad service with Apple, > but this time they got it right. I've had similar results from IBM > in the past with the warranties on thier large capactiy hard disks. > It's nice to know good customer service hasn't totally died off. > > Jeff > > > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Aug 13 16:05:38 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Xerox Viewpoint on 5 1/4" disks Availaible, Astoria, OR Message-ID: <8b.ad162a0.28a99b22@aol.com> I have a factory carton with a set of Viewpoint 2.0 Software for the Xerox 6085 Star. It is on 5 1/4 inch diskettes. I would like to offer it to list members first before posting it on eBay. I believe it is complete, new and unused. I can provide more information to those interested. Unfortunately I am not open to trading since I need cash to go to the dentist. Please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010813/8629c8d6/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 13 16:16:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225605@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >> I know that the PC turns 20 this month, > >> but does anyone know the actual date of introduction? > >> > >> It's tough going through August without a holiday, so > >> I'm looking for something to celebrate :-) Sorry I waited so long on this one, but... For me, it should be a date to *mourn*, not to celebrate. Now in fairness, the PC has brought us high-speed commodity computers. However, it has also dumbed-down a signficant portion of the field of computing. Inasmuch as the PC was created as a reaction to the Apple II, I must tell this story. I cow orker and I had been fixing the various cold solder joints on an IMSAI 8080 construction attempt done by the head of the Physics Department (and soon to be D-I-T). We'd run it successfully for a few weeks, and had begun using it in a Psych experiment involving reaction times. Then the 8212 went to heaven. We took it to the recently-opened Computerland, wherein a guy I mistook for an electronics technician (he was an MBA) rolled up his sleeves, heated up the iron, clipped off the fried 8212, soldered in a socket, plugged in a new chip... But I digress. While he was doing this, I was looking around the store, and saw the Doom of Computing in the form of a computer that didn't require a soldering iron to build and use- namely, an Apple II. The beginning of the end. I knew it then, and I was proved right. Again, it's nice to have fast, cheap computers, but I for one would have been just as happy for the next 20 years having fast, cheap TERMINALS to hook to the mainframes. And the continued high cost of entry would have kept from coming into existence an entire generation of self-taught (and poorly so) programmers who have and continue to crank out some of the worst software imaginable. In the halcyon days, most of the bad code was writtwn by the lusers themselves... Easy access to fast, cheap computers drove the genesis of an entire generation of self-taught programmers who didn't give a whit for structured programming or anything else that resembles a methodology, and who single-handedly changed the expectations that managers have about how quickly things get done. Sure RAD helped speed programming along, but not nearly as much just cutting corners... which the PC made easier... damn, I feel a song coming on again: -- obSimpsonSongLyric: Shary: If there's a task that must be done, Don't turn your tail and run, Don't pout, don't sob, Just do a half-assed job! If... you... cut every corner It is really not so bad, Everybody does it, Even mom and dad. If nobody sees it, Then nobody gets mad, Bart: It's the American way! Shary: The policeman on the beat Needs some time to rest his feet. Chief Wiggum: Fighting crime is not my cup of tea! Shary: And the clerk who runs the store Can charge a little more For meat! Apu: For meat! Shary: And milk! Apu: And milk! Both: From 1984! Shary: If... you... cut every corner, You'll have more time for play, Shary & OFF: It's the American waaaaay! -- No, not only will I not celebrate it, but I need to find a black armband to wear the rest of the month. From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 13 15:41:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 In-Reply-To: <200108131825.OAA11899@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Matt Wilda wrote: > About a year and a half ago I had got to take a class at NC State > taught by David Bradley, one of the PC's origonal designers. His > famous quote was "I may have invented Ctrl-Alt-Del, but Microsoft made > it popular." The best moment of the recent birthday celebration that Microsoft and Intel hosted and (invited IBM to attend!) was when Dave Bradley, the only representative from IBM on the panel, gave the same line, but instead of "Microsoft" he said "Bill Gates" (who was right there). Apparently, Bill was none too amused, but the rest of the place was cracking up. Touche, mofo. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:46:13 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:21 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225604@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225604@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >We had this service done on the boss' 5300ce back in '96... it's been >a trouper ever since. it's plugged into the Prime acting as a serial >console (even though the Prime is still down...). Gee Doug, what's the use of it being used as a terminal for a system that isn't functioning at the moment? The CE has a great screen...higher res. than the 5300c. Still the 5300c and it's active matrix screen is nicer than the 5300cs. The 5300 may be a bit slow, but it feels real solid now and with the various expansion bay drives and the internal ethernet/video upgrade, it'll do me for a while. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Mon Aug 13 14:16:57 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? Message-ID: <20010813215409.3410F36E7A@pandora.worldonline.nl> Jerome, I converted an 11/84 to an 11/83 myself. The memory works fine on a Q-bus. It is connected to the CPU board via overhead flatcable. I converted an 11/84 to an 11/83 myself. Wim ---------- > From: Jerome Fine > Jerome Fine replies: > > While the power supply and backplane are heavy (if I remember), the > actual boards are probably worth saving. The CPU itself is a Qbus > board, but the memory is NOT Qbus compatible. And the rest > of the boards will be Unibus. > > I see that there was a deadline. Did anything get saved? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 17:37:59 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Yeah. Two hard disk manufacturers I've never had trouble with are IBM and >Fujitsu. The reason I mention Fujitsu is that their highest-end drives, >and most of their oldest drives all come/came with a lifetime warranty. >There has been many a time when I have found an old SCSI Fujitsu drive >lying around broken somewhere, I rescue it, and they fix it up for me. I >find that very impressive. I did the same thing often enough that I still have the phone numbers for the various warranty services for different hard disk manufacturers taped to my desk. It's a bit outdated though, dated 2/98. I've done it with IBM, Seagate and Fujitsu hard drives. The Seagate drives didn't have anywhere near as long a warranty as the others. I know that with the IBM 0664, it had a 5 year warranty on it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 13 17:38:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225608@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >We had this service done on the boss' 5300ce back in '96... it's been > >a trouper ever since. it's plugged into the Prime acting as a serial > >console (even though the Prime is still down...). > > Gee Doug, what's the use of it being used as a terminal for a > system that isn't functioning at the moment? it's called -Hope-.... oops, it's dashed now... > The CE has a great > screen...higher res. than the 5300c. Still the 5300c and it's active > matrix screen is nicer than the 5300cs. The 5300 may be a bit slow, > but it feels real solid now and with the various expansion bay drives > and the internal ethernet/video upgrade, it'll do me for a while. Agreed... System 7.5.5 runs fairly fast on it, but 8.0 is a bit of a dog... too much emulated code remaining? -dq From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es Mon Aug 13 17:38:47 2001 From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? References: <20010813215409.3410F36E7A@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <0a3301c12448$bb18e260$0101a8c0@spedraja.net> Hello. Could you be more explicit ? It's possible I could obtain one (with CPU and Memory of the 84, of course) but I'd like to knoe the form to convert one 84 in one 83, of course. Regards Sergio > > Jerome, > > I converted an 11/84 to an 11/83 myself. The memory works fine on a Q-bus. > It is connected to the CPU board via overhead flatcable. I converted an > 11/84 to an 11/83 myself. > > Wim From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 13 17:53:41 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 Technical Info. Message-ID: <004801c1244b$d892efe0$f9779a8d@ajp166> Hi used to know that beast like the back of my hand. Try this, pull the keyboard encoder (ay3-3500, 25 year memory test!) and see of the problem goes away. Those encoders somtimes get static blasted. I may even have an encoder (still!) for that one. Also try removing and banging the board to shake out loose junk on it. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Messick, Gary To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: Hazeltine 1500 Technical Info. >Does anyone have any technical documentation for a Hazeltine 1500? I just >plugged mine in, and it seems that I have some problems. I'm getting cap. >O's in the top half of the display, and overtyping does not always produce >the proper character. Everything's fine on the bottom half of the screen. >I'm thinking I have a bad RAM chip. Looking at the board, it's an 8080 with >IIRC 21L02's for RAM. I don't own a logic analyzer, and haven't correlated >the ASCII codes to see what bit's are stuck. > >Any help would be appreciated. > >Gary From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 13 17:49:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: PeeCee turns 20 In-Reply-To: <200108131825.OAA11899@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <316.625T50T14293419optimus@canit.se> Matt Wilda skrev: >About a year and a half ago I had got to take a class at NC State taught by >David Bradley, one of the PC's origonal designers. His famous quote was "I >may have invented Ctrl-Alt-Del, but Microsoft made it popular." LOL! That went straight into my cookie file. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From jss at subatomix.com Mon Aug 13 18:37:08 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225605@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010813180146.H336-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > For me, it should be a date to *mourn*, not to celebrate. I have to disagree, Doug. The historic events you so despise are the very ones that have made my life *possible*. I grew up as a computer nerd in rural Oklahoma -- not exactly the point of deepest or quickest penetration of technology -- starting as a mid-1980s grade-school kid. Without personal computing, I would not have discovered computers and the art of programming until much later in life. I would have grown up as just a nerd, with no real purpose other than to escape. Also, not every programmer produced from personal computing is a bad programmer. I've seen quite a number of such people that should be forbidden from ever invoking a text editor, but we're not all that way. I may not have a lot of field experience (I'm not even out of college yet), but I'm a damn good programmer. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 18:40:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225608@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225608@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Agreed... System 7.5.5 runs fairly fast on it, but 8.0 is a bit >of a dog... too much emulated code remaining? I've got 8.1 on mine and it seems more stable than 7.5.X. There was quite a bit of 68k emulation still going on with those releases though. It certainly would've helped if they had put a cache on the 603. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 19:05:31 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010813180146.H336-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20010813180146.H336-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >Also, not every programmer produced from personal computing is a bad >programmer. I've seen quite a number of such people that should be >forbidden from ever invoking a text editor, but we're not all that way. >I may not have a lot of field experience (I'm not even out of college >yet), but I'm a damn good programmer. As Iggy mentioned a bit ago, Demo programmers still practice assembler. I would imagine that there are quite a few talented programmers in that field. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Aug 13 20:15:14 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . Message-ID: <4.1.20010813200149.02024de0@206.231.8.2> Just a brief report I'm passing on from Hans Franke who is wending his way Westward on his cross-country motorcycle journey to VCF 5.0. He reports he's been having a great time so far after he'd picked up the bike at the Baltimore seaport around a week or so ago. He came up through the York, PA area up to the North-Central PA area, thence Westward towards Jamestown. Stayed in our front yard in his rather interesting camper arrangement over Friday and Saturday night. He's got a small AutoCamp folding tent bolted to the top of the cargo box. The neighborhood up and down our dead end street was certainly curious about such an odd looking rig not to say the other motorcycle riders who had seen him riding through town. They seemed to drive off the side of the road while studying Hans' rig. Bev and I took him to his first live rodeo on Saturday night which is a fairly major Eastern rodeo on the PRCA professional circuit (http://gerryrodeo.org/). Always a good time there for all -especially the barbecue beef dinners the rodeo organizers put on. Personally, I like the pretty cowgirls in their Wrangler jeans ;-) Hans really had fun that day. We got him a Sprint PCS cellphone on my own SS and drivers license numbers (silly outfit couldn't take his German passport number for ID after he arrived in NYC). Seemingly the best coverage across the USA plus a rather reasonable deal for what he's going to use it. So now he's got communication when that Russian-made three-wheel cycle breaks down out at the head of nowhere ;-) We got the rear door hinge welded properly by one of my friends after it broke during the sea trip over. Hans figures the welder in the Ural factory had too much vodka that day. He should be down towards Columbus, OH at this time if he was able to get in contact with Ethan. Watch out Sellam and gang! The mad Bavarian is on his way West if that underpowered Ural engine can pull itself over the Rockys and if all the bolts don't rattle out of it! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Aug 13 20:15:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225605@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >The beginning of the end. I knew it then, and I was >proved right. Again, it's nice to have fast, cheap >computers, but I for one would have been just as >happy for the next 20 years having fast, cheap TERMINALS >to hook to the mainframes. And the continued high cost of >entry would have kept from coming into existence an entire >generation of self-taught (and poorly so) programmers who >have and continue to crank out some of the worst software >imaginable. In the halcyon days, most of the bad code was >writtwn by the lusers themselves... > >Easy access to fast, cheap computers drove the genesis of >an entire generation of self-taught programmers who didn't >give a whit for structured programming or anything else that Simple solution, software people should unionize. BTW I see the era of the Apple II as the last of bug free code in commercial products. From avickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 13 20:34:11 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225605@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010814023411.009e7818@192.168.1.2> At 05:16 pm 13/08/2001 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >For me, it should be a date to *mourn*, not to celebrate. Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with you now... > >But I digress. While he was doing this, I was looking >around the store, and saw the Doom of Computing in the >form of a computer that didn't require a soldering iron >to build and use- namely, an Apple II. I think all of us have our own personal view on "when computing had it's golden age". For me, 1984 and the Sinclair QL was the peak of the microcomputer (as opposed to the IBM PC & clones). For you, it must have been around 197. >The beginning of the end. I knew it then, and I was >proved right. I dispute that: Computers and computing go from strength to strength. There's more than just PCs out there; the mighty mainframe still rules the roost in many places, there's Apple Macs, VAX minis, Crays, and probably many others I can't even think of. And, for the soldering-iron fans, embedded computing is probably stronger than it ever was - *everything's* got a computer or three in it... >Again, it's nice to have fast, cheap >computers, but I for one would have been just as >happy for the next 20 years having fast, cheap TERMINALS >to hook to the mainframes. And the continued high cost of >entry would have kept from coming into existence an entire >generation of self-taught (and poorly so) programmers who >have and continue to crank out some of the worst software >imaginable. In the halcyon days, most of the bad code was >writtwn by the lusers themselves... That's a bit elitist, isn't it? Besides, most of the self-taught programmers of whom you speak are not really programmers; they're merely users with enough knowledge to be dangerous. Besides, if it wasn't for the microprocessor and all that it begat, this list wouldn't even be here... >Easy access to fast, cheap computers drove the genesis of >an entire generation of self-taught programmers who didn't >give a whit for structured programming or anything else that >resembles a methodology, and who single-handedly changed the >expectations that managers have about how quickly things >get done. Sure RAD helped speed programming along, but not >nearly as much just cutting corners... which the PC made >easier... damn, I feel a song coming on again: It wasn't the PC that made cutting corners easy; it was the near-universal use of BASIC - a fundamentally unstructured language - that is responsible for the bulk of the "bad programmers"; and I say that as a professional programmer who uses BASIC....! Maybe if PASCAL had been the language de jour, today's self-taught programmers would be better at it... >No, not only will I not celebrate it, but I need to >find a black armband to wear the rest of the month. IMHO, no. The PC had to happen; it was just a case of who got lucky (or had the best marketing). At the end of the day, the PC offered unrivalled expansion possibilities, a comparatively friendly OS (Gates did well to poach DOS), and good flexibility thanks to the lack of built in anything. Personally, I'd have liked to have seen a MC68000 based machine become today's PC (mainly because I'd already learned assembler on the QL). No doubt Commodore fans would have preferred the C128 or Amiga to "grow up" into the PC. Well, I'm off to dabble with my CBM PET, or maybe the MZ-80K. They're fun, but I wouldn't like to have to use them every day, day in day out... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From vance at ikickass.org Mon Aug 13 21:45:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010814023411.009e7818@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Adrian Vickers wrote: > At 05:16 pm 13/08/2001 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > >For me, it should be a date to *mourn*, not to celebrate. > > Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with you now... I will have to as well. > > > > >But I digress. While he was doing this, I was looking > >around the store, and saw the Doom of Computing in the > >form of a computer that didn't require a soldering iron > >to build and use- namely, an Apple II. > > I think all of us have our own personal view on "when computing had it's > golden age". For me, 1984 and the Sinclair QL was the peak of the > microcomputer (as opposed to the IBM PC & clones). For you, it must have > been around 197. I think it was somewhere in that range too. Having my Sinclair 1000 talk to my Colecovision through the memory slot was kinda neat. > >The beginning of the end. I knew it then, and I was > >proved right. > > I dispute that: Computers and computing go from strength to strength. > There's more than just PCs out there; the mighty mainframe still rules the > roost in many places, there's Apple Macs, VAX minis, Crays, and probably > many others I can't even think of. And, for the soldering-iron fans, > embedded computing is probably stronger than it ever was - *everything's* > got a computer or three in it... In many places? The mainframe rules the roost period. What do you think serves the databases that run the neato little things your PCs do on the internet? IBM DB2/390. > >Again, it's nice to have fast, cheap > >computers, but I for one would have been just as > >happy for the next 20 years having fast, cheap TERMINALS > >to hook to the mainframes. And the continued high cost of > >entry would have kept from coming into existence an entire > >generation of self-taught (and poorly so) programmers who > >have and continue to crank out some of the worst software > >imaginable. In the halcyon days, most of the bad code was > >writtwn by the lusers themselves... > > That's a bit elitist, isn't it? Besides, most of the self-taught > programmers of whom you speak are not really programmers; they're merely > users with enough knowledge to be dangerous. Besides, if it wasn't for the > microprocessor and all that it begat, this list wouldn't even be here... I don't know if I necessarily think this anymore, but whenever I used to see droves of mindless PC zombies getting on the 'net, I used to think, "Hmmm. Fresh meat." > >Easy access to fast, cheap computers drove the genesis of > >an entire generation of self-taught programmers who didn't > >give a whit for structured programming or anything else that > >resembles a methodology, and who single-handedly changed the > >expectations that managers have about how quickly things > >get done. Sure RAD helped speed programming along, but not > >nearly as much just cutting corners... which the PC made > >easier... damn, I feel a song coming on again: > > It wasn't the PC that made cutting corners easy; it was the near-universal > use of BASIC - a fundamentally unstructured language - that is responsible > for the bulk of the "bad programmers"; and I say that as a professional > programmer who uses BASIC....! That and all the stupid ass "crackers" who learned assembler just to get free shareware. > Maybe if PASCAL had been the language de jour, today's self-taught > programmers would be better at it... How about something like LISP or SML? Maybe Prolog (!)... I know I'm pushing it with that one. > >No, not only will I not celebrate it, but I need to > >find a black armband to wear the rest of the month. > > IMHO, no. The PC had to happen; it was just a case of who got lucky (or had > the best marketing). At the end of the day, the PC offered unrivalled > expansion possibilities, a comparatively friendly OS (Gates did well to > poach DOS), and good flexibility thanks to the lack of built in anything. > > Personally, I'd have liked to have seen a MC68000 based machine become > today's PC (mainly because I'd already learned assembler on the QL). No > doubt Commodore fans would have preferred the C128 or Amiga to "grow up" > into the PC. I would've loved to have seen the Atari computers take over. I still have a couple of Hades I use regularly. > Well, I'm off to dabble with my CBM PET, or maybe the MZ-80K. They're fun, > but I wouldn't like to have to use them every day, day in day out... I'll be off tinkering with my big-iron VAX and my S/390 G5 (ot). Peace... Sridhar > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 13 22:53:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010813200149.02024de0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Christian Fandt wrote: > Watch out Sellam and gang! The mad Bavarian is on his way West if that > underpowered Ural engine can pull itself over the Rockys and if all > the bolts don't rattle out of it! I told him I'd call a tow truck when he breaks down with 1,000 pounds of computers on the back trying to get over the Rockies. I don't think his cellphone will be working out there either ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From at258 at osfn.org Tue Aug 14 00:06:34 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010813200149.02024de0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: Hans stopped in for a visit the saturday before he picked up the bike. We had a great time looking over some of our pieces and talking. We stuffed his pack with a few goodies and sent him on his way. On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Christian Fandt wrote: > Just a brief report I'm passing on from Hans Franke who is wending his way > Westward on his cross-country motorcycle journey to VCF 5.0. > > He reports he's been having a great time so far after he'd picked up the > bike at the Baltimore seaport around a week or so ago. He came up through > the York, PA area up to the North-Central PA area, thence Westward towards > Jamestown. Stayed in our front yard in his rather interesting camper > arrangement over Friday and Saturday night. He's got a small AutoCamp > folding tent bolted to the top of the cargo box. The neighborhood up and > down our dead end street was certainly curious about such an odd looking > rig not to say the other motorcycle riders who had seen him riding through > town. They seemed to drive off the side of the road while studying Hans' rig. > > Bev and I took him to his first live rodeo on Saturday night which is a > fairly major Eastern rodeo on the PRCA professional circuit > (http://gerryrodeo.org/). Always a good time there for all -especially the > barbecue beef dinners the rodeo organizers put on. Personally, I like the > pretty cowgirls in their Wrangler jeans ;-) Hans really had fun that day. > > We got him a Sprint PCS cellphone on my own SS and drivers license numbers > (silly outfit couldn't take his German passport number for ID after he > arrived in NYC). Seemingly the best coverage across the USA plus a rather > reasonable deal for what he's going to use it. So now he's got > communication when that Russian-made three-wheel cycle breaks down out at > the head of nowhere ;-) We got the rear door hinge welded properly by one > of my friends after it broke during the sea trip over. Hans figures the > welder in the Ural factory had too much vodka that day. > > He should be down towards Columbus, OH at this time if he was able to get > in contact with Ethan. > > Watch out Sellam and gang! The mad Bavarian is on his way West if that > underpowered Ural engine can pull itself over the Rockys and if all the > bolts don't rattle out of it! > > Regards, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 00:23:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: LOL. You pessimist 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I told him I'd call a tow truck when he breaks down with 1,000 pounds of > computers on the back trying to get over the Rockies. I don't think his > cellphone will be working out there either ;) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 14 00:51:38 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . References: <4.1.20010813200149.02024de0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <3B78BC6A.4BFAC0B7@internet1.net> Wow, I'd love to take a look at his bike. Urals are sold in America now, but ours are slightly different. They start out as parts from Russia and Ural America, or whatever it's called, builds the bikes using the Russian parts along with parts from other sources, in order to make a more reliable bike. They're supposed to be pretty sweet rides, from what I read on the web. Those side car wheels are powered too :-) I'm not even sure if they call them Urals in Russia. I read the history of it all at one time, but I don't recall everything now. They had some three letter name too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Christian Fandt wrote: > So now he's got > communication when that Russian-made three-wheel cycle breaks down out at > the head of nowhere ;-) We got the rear door hinge welded properly by one > of my friends after it broke during the sea trip over. Hans figures the > welder in the Ural factory had too much vodka that day. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 14 01:05:23 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Dead PC References: Message-ID: <3B78BFA3.3CEB3CF8@internet1.net> That's what I did with my first PC. I had an XT and a PC, and I thought the PC was dead because it wasn't booting like the XT. Then I left in on while messing around with the XT, and all of a sudden it booted. I felt much better, knowing that the second half of my new acquisition booted too, even if it did take longer :-) They were my first computers (IBM style). I paid $35 for the pair, back in 96 or 97 :-) I don't have either anymore. The XT had a clone board, and blew eventually, and I sold the PC on Ebay after I was tired of it. I bought another XT, but sold that too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tony Duell wrote: > (a PC will take > quite a time to do a memory test before it looks at the floppy drive, so > you might just not have waited long enough for the latter). From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Aug 14 01:50:21 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: [ot?] request for comment References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010812160822.023a0bc0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B78CA2D.2050602@cnonline.net> Hi Chuck, I would LOVE a scan of the booklet, also a scan of the cpu side would help. Is SIMPLEX on the web? or is it somthing you were working on yourself? ==================== Chuck McManis wrote: > I have a CARDIAC, perhaps I could scan the booklet for you. Or would you > like to build something unique? I have a similar project called SIMPLEX > which is a PDP/CARDIAC/uP inspired instructional computer architecture. > > --Chuck > > At 03:27 PM 8/12/01 -0700, you wrote: > >> I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard >> slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all >> I can find is the Instruction Set, none of how the instructions are >> implemented. >> >> So, I decieded to write my own... >> Here is the instruction set, I thought it best to consult with you >> all before beginning to code. What >> do you think? >> Opcodes >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >> Z N o1 o2 o3 >> ================================================================= >> Z N 0 0 1 i r r get copy (indirect) register rr to acx >> >> Z N 0 1 0 i r r put copy (indirect) acx to register rr >> >> Z N 0 1 1 o o o Mathop >> >> 0 0 0 nop >> 0 0 1 add acx + acy ==> acx >> 0 1 0 sub acx - acy ==> acx >> 0 1 1 and acx & acy ==> acx >> 1 0 0 exor acx xor acy ==> acx >> 1 0 1 or acx | acy ==> acx >> 1 1 0 cmp acx cmp acy set Z and N >> 1 1 1 cpz acx cmp 0 set Z and N >> >> Z N 1 0 0 p p p inp copy port ppp ==> acx >> >> Z N 1 0 1 p p p out copy acx ==> port ppp >> >> Z N 1 1 0 i r r swp acx ==> (ind) Rn == > acx >> >> Z N 1 1 1 0 o o acx op group >> >> 0 0 0 not r1 <== ! r1 >> 0 0 1 shl Shift left >> 0 1 0 shr Shift right >> 0 1 1 inc Increment r1 <== r1 + 1 >> >> Z N 1 1 1 1 o o Jump Group >> >> 1 0 0 jmp ind [pc] pc <== [pc] >> 1 0 1 jsr ind [pc] R2 <== pc , pc <== >> [pc] >> 1 1 0 rtn pc <== R2 >> 1 1 1 Halt,reset [pc] <== 0 >> >> Zero and Negative flags >> >> On execution of the cmp and cpz instructions the Z and N flags are >> set, following instructions can test these flags and choose to execute >> or not. >> >> Z N Meaning >> 0 0 Execute if acx was positive on test (acx > 0 / acx > acy) >> 0 1 Execute if acx was negative on test (acx < 0 / acx < acy) >> 1 0 Execute if acx was zeron on test (acx = 0 / acx = acy) >> 1 1 Always execute >> >> >> Registers >> 00 r0 acx 1st operand >> 01 r1 acy 2nd operand >> 10 r2 ptr Pointer register >> 11 r3 pc Program Counter >> >> >> here is an example of an assembled program.... >> >> Assembly of a simple program >> >> org $10 ; program starts at 10 10 >> >> get ind pc ; load value1 acy 10 11001111 00010000 >> adr value1 11 00011001 00010001 >> swp acy 12 11110110 00010010 >> >> get ind pc ; load value2 acx 13 11001111 00010011 >> adr value2 14 00011010 00010100 >> >> add ; sum values 15 11011001 00010101 >> >> put ind pc ; store sum 16 11010111 00010110 >> adr sum 17 00011011 00010111 >> >> hlt ; end of program 18 11111111 00011000 >> >> value1 byt 19 00011001 >> value2 byt 1A 00011010 >> sum byt 1B 00011011 >> >> >> end ; end of code >> >> >> >> I know, it only has 256 words of 8 bit memory, but isn't this as much >> as some of the early machines? >> From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 14 03:58:26 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: [ot?] request for comment In-Reply-To: <3B78CA2D.2050602@cnonline.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010812160822.023a0bc0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010814015704.02a89eb0@209.185.79.193> I'll see about getting the CARDIAC stuff scanned, in the mean time I've "HTMLized" and updated my SIMPLEX doc and put it here: I've got a bunch of TIL311 displays that I'm using for output (wish I had Nixie tubes :-{) --Chuck At 11:50 PM 8/13/01 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Chuck, > >I would LOVE a scan of the booklet, also a scan of the >cpu side would help. > >Is SIMPLEX on the web? or is it somthing you were working on >yourself? > >==================== > > > >Chuck McManis wrote: > >>I have a CARDIAC, perhaps I could scan the booklet for you. Or would you >>like to build something unique? I have a similar project called SIMPLEX >>which is a PDP/CARDIAC/uP inspired instructional computer architecture. >>--Chuck >>At 03:27 PM 8/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >> >>>I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard >>>slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all I >>>can find is the Instruction Set, none of how the instructions are implemented. >>>So, I decieded to write my own... >>>Here is the instruction set, I thought it best to consult with you all >>>before beginning to code. What >>>do you think? >>>Opcodes >>>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >>>Z N o1 o2 o3 >>>================================================================= >>>Z N 0 0 1 i r r get copy (indirect) register rr to acx >>>Z N 0 1 0 i r r put copy (indirect) acx to register rr >>>Z N 0 1 1 o o o Mathop >>> 0 0 0 nop >>> 0 0 1 add acx + acy ==> acx >>> 0 1 0 sub acx - acy ==> acx >>> 0 1 1 and acx & acy ==> acx >>> 1 0 0 exor acx xor acy ==> acx >>> 1 0 1 or acx | acy ==> acx >>> 1 1 0 cmp acx cmp acy set Z and N >>> 1 1 1 cpz acx cmp 0 set Z and N >>>Z N 1 0 0 p p p inp copy port ppp ==> acx >>>Z N 1 0 1 p p p out copy acx ==> port ppp >>>Z N 1 1 0 i r r swp acx ==> (ind) Rn == > acx >>>Z N 1 1 1 0 o o acx op group >>> 0 0 0 not r1 <== ! r1 >>> 0 0 1 shl Shift left >>> 0 1 0 shr Shift right >>> 0 1 1 inc Increment r1 <== r1 + 1 >>>Z N 1 1 1 1 o o Jump Group >>> 1 0 0 jmp ind [pc] pc <== [pc] >>> 1 0 1 jsr ind [pc] R2 <== pc , pc <== [pc] >>> 1 1 0 rtn pc <== R2 >>> 1 1 1 Halt,reset [pc] <== 0 >>>Zero and Negative flags >>>On execution of the cmp and cpz instructions the Z and N flags are >>>set, following instructions can test these flags and choose to execute >>>or not. >>>Z N Meaning >>>0 0 Execute if acx was positive on test (acx > 0 / acx > acy) >>>0 1 Execute if acx was negative on test (acx < 0 / acx < acy) >>>1 0 Execute if acx was zeron on test (acx = 0 / acx = acy) >>>1 1 Always execute >>> >>>Registers >>>00 r0 acx 1st operand >>>01 r1 acy 2nd operand >>>10 r2 ptr Pointer register >>>11 r3 pc Program Counter >>> >>>here is an example of an assembled program.... >>>Assembly of a simple program >>> org $10 ; program starts at 10 10 >>> get ind pc ; load value1 acy 10 11001111 00010000 >>> adr value1 11 00011001 00010001 >>> swp acy 12 11110110 00010010 >>> get ind pc ; load value2 acx 13 11001111 00010011 >>> adr value2 14 00011010 00010100 >>> add ; sum values 15 11011001 00010101 >>> put ind pc ; store sum 16 11010111 00010110 >>> adr sum 17 00011011 00010111 >>> hlt ; end of program 18 11111111 00011000 >>>value1 byt 19 00011001 >>>value2 byt 1A 00011010 >>>sum byt 1B 00011011 >>> >>> end ; end of code >>> >>>I know, it only has 256 words of 8 bit memory, but isn't this as much as >>>some of the early machines? > From matt at knm.yi.org Tue Aug 14 04:21:16 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable Message-ID: Hi, I've got a PS/2 keyboard (IBM keyboards were the best thing to happen to PC keyboard IMHO, apart from the first one) but unfortunatly the cable is going on this one. I was wondering if anyone would have such a thing as a replacement cable (silly flat connector at one end to PS2 at the other) :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 06:26:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225609@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > For me, it should be a date to *mourn*, not to celebrate. > > I have to disagree, Doug. The historic events you so despise are the very > ones that have made my life *possible*. I grew up as a computer nerd in > rural Oklahoma -- not exactly the point of deepest or quickest penetration "When I was a young man, barely seventeen... went out to Hollywood to change my dream... Dusty Oklahoma was all I'd ever seen... ...and I was getting older..." Yeah, Louisville ain't a techno hotbed, either... Neither of us would have been any worse off if we'd never been involved with computers. I was going to major in choral music direction... took one required course in music theory and Computer Programming 101... and never looked back, that is, until recently... > Also, not every programmer produced from personal computing is a bad > programmer. I've seen quite a number of such people that should be > forbidden from ever invoking a text editor, but we're not all > that way. Agreed; and some would say it's worth filtering every grain of sand in the ocean just to get at the few grains of gold contained therein... > I may not have a lot of field experience (I'm not even out of college > yet), but I'm a damn good programmer. I'd say if you a damned good programmer, it's because you've developed expertise, regardless of how you got it. But I know lots of stories about PFYs getting their start in mainframe environments... Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 06:32:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Also, not every programmer produced from personal computing is a bad > >programmer. I've seen quite a number of such people that should be > >forbidden from ever invoking a text editor, but we're not all that way. > >I may not have a lot of field experience (I'm not even out of college > >yet), but I'm a damn good programmer. > > As Iggy mentioned a bit ago, Demo programmers still practice > assembler. I would imagine that there are quite a few talented > programmers in that field. I do not mind that programmers vote Democratic... Seriously, what's a demo programmer? A programmer who writes only demo software? As in mock-ups? Prototypes? And I hate to pick nits, but no one can "practice assembler" anymore than they can "practice compiler". They _write_ assembly language; if it must be shortened, it should be to "assembly", not "assembler". But if I'm stumbling into a British usage vs. American usage, please forgive me, I pick nits, but prefer not to be an errant pedant. And I would not consider people writing in assembly language to be at the bottom rungs, at least not by virture of the language they're using. In fact, I am locally renknowned as one of if not the best assembly language programmer available (again, locally). Too bad the demand has dried up. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 06:53:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I think all of us have our own personal view on "when computing had it's > golden age". For me, 1984 and the Sinclair QL was the peak of the > microcomputer (as opposed to the IBM PC & clones). For you, it must have > been around 197. Hard to say... Actually, 1979-1983, my Pr1me Days... > >The beginning of the end. I knew it then, and I was > >proved right. > > I dispute that: Computers and computing go from strength to strength. > There's more than just PCs out there; the mighty mainframe still rules the > roost in many places, there's Apple Macs, VAX minis, Crays, and probably > many others I can't even think of. And, for the soldering-iron fans, > embedded computing is probably stronger than it ever was - *everything's* > got a computer or three in it... Computing today is nothing if not diverse. > >Again, it's nice to have fast, cheap > >computers, but I for one would have been just as > >happy for the next 20 years having fast, cheap TERMINALS > >to hook to the mainframes. And the continued high cost of > >entry would have kept from coming into existence an entire > >generation of self-taught (and poorly so) programmers who > >have and continue to crank out some of the worst software > >imaginable. In the halcyon days, most of the bad code was > >writtwn by the lusers themselves... > > That's a bit elitist, isn't it? Besides, most of the self-taught > programmers of whom you speak are not really programmers; they're merely > users with enough knowledge to be dangerous. Besides, if it wasn't for the > microprocessor and all that it begat, this list wouldn't even be here.. No; I have worked with these people. Most of them learned how to program before they had a chance to take a college course with rigor; I know this is anecdotal, but take one young man I worked with. He'd learned to program in high school, a combination of some fragmentary knowledge on the part of the math teacher and self-taught the rest of the way. Then got to college, where they tried to teach him structured programming. He dismissed structured programming completely because "it slows down both the program and the programmer". While this is potentially true, it ignores the truth (at the time, less so now) that more labor is spent on maintaining code than initially writing it. And as to lusers with a little too much knowledge... yeah, they can be a problem, and a LART's not always at hand... But as this list is dedicated to hardware that ranges from a Imlac-1 (I think that was the oldest reported here recently) to something like a Mac IIci (1991), it might have a smaller readership sans micros, but I'd bet there'd be sufficient interest to have the list. And if you meant we'd not have the Internet if the micro hadn't come about, I'd have to dispute that. It would simply be a slower, and less saturated Internet... > >Easy access to fast, cheap computers drove the genesis of > >an entire generation of self-taught programmers who didn't > >give a whit for structured programming or anything else that > >resembles a methodology, and who single-handedly changed the > >expectations that managers have about how quickly things > >get done. Sure RAD helped speed programming along, but not > >nearly as much just cutting corners... which the PC made > >easier... damn, I feel a song coming on again: > > It wasn't the PC that made cutting corners easy; it was the near-universal > use of BASIC - a fundamentally unstructured language - that is responsible > for the bulk of the "bad programmers"; and I say that as a professional > programmer who uses BASIC....! Well, you won't get much disagreement from me here... but I've seen COBOL code that was more spaghetti'd out than the worst BASIC I've seen... > Maybe if PASCAL had been the language de jour, today's self-taught > programmers would be better at it... Overall, yes, but to paraphrase my Data Structures, Pascal sucks when you limit yourself to the FORTRAN subset... > >No, not only will I not celebrate it, but I need to > >find a black armband to wear the rest of the month. > > IMHO, no. The PC had to happen; it was just a case of who got lucky (or had > the best marketing). At the end of the day, the PC offered unrivalled > expansion possibilities, a comparatively friendly OS (Gates did well to > poach DOS), and good flexibility thanks to the lack of built > in anything. Actually, at that moment I saw the Apple II, my thought was: "ten years too soon. we need ten years to figure out what we can really do with these damn things..." Ten years to develop real operating systems, job control languages, interfaces, etc. > Personally, I'd have liked to have seen a MC68000 based machine become > today's PC (mainly because I'd already learned assembler on the QL). No > doubt Commodore fans would have preferred the C128 or Amiga to "grow up" > into the PC. Might have been a marginal improvement... it's a nicely orthogonal processor... > Well, I'm off to dabble with my CBM PET, or maybe the MZ-80K. They're fun, > but I wouldn't like to have to use them every day, day in day out... Cool, don't let my rant effect your fun! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 06:58:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn s 20) [longish] Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I dispute that: Computers and computing go from strength to strength. > > There's more than just PCs out there; the mighty mainframe still rules the > > roost in many places, there's Apple Macs, VAX minis, Crays, and probably > > many others I can't even think of. And, for the soldering-iron fans, > > embedded computing is probably stronger than it ever was - *everything's* > > got a computer or three in it... > > In many places? The mainframe rules the roost period. What do you think > serves the databases that run the neato little things your PCs do on the > internet? IBM DB2/390. Hmmm... probably true for the commercial sites, of which I spend virtually zero of my personal time. Unless Google uses the OBM iron... > > That's a bit elitist, isn't it? Besides, most of the self-taught > > programmers of whom you speak are not really programmers; they're merely > > users with enough knowledge to be dangerous. Besides, if it wasn't for the > > microprocessor and all that it begat, this list wouldn't even be here... > > I don't know if I necessarily think this anymore, but whenever I used to > see droves of mindless PC zombies getting on the 'net, I used to think, > "Hmmm. Fresh meat." If Horace Greely was right about him, then P. T. Barnum would love living in this age... > > It wasn't the PC that made cutting corners easy; it was the near-universal > > use of BASIC - a fundamentally unstructured language - that is responsible > > for the bulk of the "bad programmers"; and I say that as a professional > > programmer who uses BASIC....! > > That and all the stupid ass "crackers" who learned assembler just to get > free shareware. I dunno; I haven't run into too many of these people in the orkplace... > > Maybe if PASCAL had been the language de jour, today's self-taught > > programmers would be better at it... > > How about something like LISP or SML? Maybe Prolog (!)... I know I'm > pushing it with that one. Fine languages. > > >No, not only will I not celebrate it, but I need to > > >find a black armband to wear the rest of the month. [..snip..] > I would've loved to have seen the Atari computers take over. I still have > a couple of Hades I use regularly. > > > Well, I'm off to dabble with my CBM PET, or maybe the MZ-80K. They're fun, > > but I wouldn't like to have to use them every day, day in day out... > > I'll be off tinkering with my big-iron VAX and my S/390 G5 (ot). Cool. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 07:09:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Service does still exist.... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Agreed... System 7.5.5 runs fairly fast on it, but 8.0 is a bit > >of a dog... too much emulated code remaining? > > I've got 8.1 on mine and it seems more stable than 7.5.X. > There was quite a bit of 68k emulation still going on with those > releases though. It certainly would've helped if they had put a > cache on the 603. I have 8.1, so I'll have to give it a whirl on the 5300... -dq From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 14 07:13:31 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Last time I needed a couple, JDT Microdevices carried them but others may too -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Matt London -> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 4:21 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable -> -> -> Hi, -> I've got a PS/2 keyboard (IBM keyboards were the best thing to -> happen to -> PC keyboard IMHO, apart from the first one) but unfortunatly the cable is -> going on this one. I was wondering if anyone would have such a thing as a -> replacement cable (silly flat connector at one end to PS2 at the -> other) :&) -> -> -- Matt -> -> --- -> E-mail: -> matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net -> matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk -> mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com -> Web Page: -> http://knm.yi.org/ -> http://pkl.net/~matt/ -> -> PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F -> PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html -> -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 07:32:24 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > how about SILLIEST?? IBM professional debug facility. An entire half > > > > length card for the sole purpose of bringing two pins of the ISA bus to a > > > > pushbutton. It made the front cover of PC Tech Journal. > > That sounds a LOT like the Periscope debugger board. Is it? > > NO! > > Periscope (by Brett Salter) had several different versions, ranging from > little clips to go into an ISA slot alongside a board, to a full lenghth > board with "write-protectable RAM" that the debugger could be loaded into. Did anyone here ever get to use an ATRON debugger board? This was a full-length card that, as best as I can determine from my poor recollection, contained a discrete-IC implemnetation of the 8088 processor, which gave the debugger software the ability to get to signals that would otherwise have required a "bond-out" version of the 8088 (which I have no idea whether such beats existed or not). The software let you step though a program cycle-by-cycle, so you could *really* watch as a low level. It was essential in my work at the time, developing process control software for warehouses and distribution centers, all done the the Zenith Z-151 that now resides at home in the collection. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 07:33:32 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225610@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I used to feel the same way when I was running a TRS-80 Model > > 2000 and I'd see caching SCSI controllers that used the same 80186 as > > a coprocessor on the board. There's something humbling about seeing > > your main CPU relegated to coprocessor status! > > Remember when the Apple Laserwriter was more powerful than any of the > computers that they sold to connect it to? Yes, I found that highly amusing at the time... -dq From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 08:24:38 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale Message-ID: Hello all, I posted some Commodore stuff to my website, for sale. 99% of the items are $2.00 or $5.00, so no outrageous pricing (you also pay shipping, of course). http://members.tripod.com/glhturbo/commo.html (Apologies for the annoying Tripod banner). All the details are there... One important note is that this is NOT a "first come, first served" sale. In order to have some fairness to the international and digest members of the list, if I get more people interested in an item than I have on hand, I will throw names into a hat and pick randomly. Thanks! Rich B. From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Tue Aug 14 09:21:26 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale Message-ID: Have one of our distinguished assembly programmers write you a program to randomly pick names. - M.S. "Rich Beaudry" @classiccmp.org on 08/14/2001 08:24:38 AM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: cc: Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale Hello all, I posted some Commodore stuff to my website, for sale. 99% of the items are $2.00 or $5.00, so no outrageous pricing (you also pay shipping, of course). http://members.tripod.com/glhturbo/commo.html (Apologies for the annoying Tripod banner). All the details are there... One important note is that this is NOT a "first come, first served" sale. In order to have some fairness to the international and digest members of the list, if I get more people interested in an item than I have on hand, I will throw names into a hat and pick randomly. Thanks! Rich B. From stefan at softhome.net Tue Aug 14 09:27:14 2001 From: stefan at softhome.net (stefan@softhome.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Keyboard for VT320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010814142714.21923.qmail@softhome.net> I've got one probably, but I'm in Slovenia right now so. But he can have it for shipping and maybe for some packaging costs. Stefan. Matt London writes: > Hi, > A friend of mine was recently given a vt320 - unfortunatly it's > keyboardless - don't spose anyone's got one spare (preferably in the > UK)? > > -- Matt > > --- > E-mail: > matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net > matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk > mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com > Web Page: > http://knm.yi.org/ > http://pkl.net/~matt/ > > PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 14 09:41:56 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn s 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 07:58:56AM -0400 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010814094156.D5585017@uiuc.edu> Douglas Quebbeman said: > > > I dispute that: Computers and computing go from strength to strength. > > > There's more than just PCs out there; the mighty mainframe still rules the > > > roost in many places, there's Apple Macs, VAX minis, Crays, and probably > > > many others I can't even think of. And, for the soldering-iron fans, > > > embedded computing is probably stronger than it ever was - *everything's* > > > got a computer or three in it... > > > > In many places? The mainframe rules the roost period. What do you think > > serves the databases that run the neato little things your PCs do on the > > internet? IBM DB2/390. > > Hmmm... probably true for the commercial sites, of which I spend > virtually zero of my personal time. Unless Google uses the OBM iron... Nope, they use commodity PCs with FreeBSD. From http://www.google.com/technology/: "The speed you experience can be attributed in part to the efficiency of our search algorithm and partly to the thousands of low cost PC's we've networked together to create a superfast search engine." - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 13 19:45:21 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card Message-ID: <590.626T1050T1054491optimus@canit.se> Found an interesting card in the trays of a small computer shop. It's an 8-bit card with a 68020 on it. The card is full-length, with a piece sandwiched onto it at one end. It's by a Xerox company with a German name; Kurzweil? Any leads as to what this might be? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its initial impact on the world. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From mlps at together.net Tue Aug 14 10:40:53 2001 From: mlps at together.net (ALFRED W. MARIN) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline) Message-ID: <3B794684.8B0EFB9@together.net> Support and information for the older Data I/O programmers is available from Memory & Logic Programming Services. Data I/O sold the rights to this equipment to so they could direct all there support to there newer products. You can contact them via email at mlps@together.net. Promlink & Device lists are available for free but copies of the manuals are available for sale. Service, calibration and updates are also available. Al Marin. From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 14 09:38:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > LOL. You pessimist 8-) Naw, more of a realist ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Gary.Messick at itt.com Tue Aug 14 10:40:10 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B48@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> I think Xerox bought Kurzweil's speech recognition unit. So it might be some sort of speech recognition board (probably coupled with other software of course!) Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 7:45 PM > To: Classic computing > Subject: 68020 ISA card > > > Found an interesting card in the trays of a small computer > shop. It's an 8-bit > card with a 68020 on it. The card is full-length, with a > piece sandwiched onto > it at one end. It's by a Xerox company with a German name; Kurzweil? > Any leads as to what this might be? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the > Stockholm Exhibition > of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never > contributed much to > the revolutionary developments through which modern > architecture made its > initial impact on the world. > J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 10:56:57 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn s 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <20010814094156.D5585017@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: And I'll bet you they could do it cheaper with a single IBM mainframe than thousands of PCs. The power savings alone would be tremendous. A 9672 G7 xSeries can run hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Linux images in LPARs or under VM, all at speeds comparable to quick PCs. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > Nope, they use commodity PCs with FreeBSD. From http://www.google.com/technology/: > > "The speed you experience can be attributed in part to the efficiency of our > search algorithm and partly to the thousands of low cost PC's we've networked > together to create a superfast search engine." From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 10:53:00 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At http://www.pckeyboard.com/ you can get brand new ones. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Last time I needed a couple, JDT Microdevices carried them but others may > too > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Matt London > -> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 4:21 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable > -> > -> > -> Hi, > -> I've got a PS/2 keyboard (IBM keyboards were the best thing to > -> happen to > -> PC keyboard IMHO, apart from the first one) but unfortunatly the cable is > -> going on this one. I was wondering if anyone would have such a thing as a > -> replacement cable (silly flat connector at one end to PS2 at the > -> other) :&) > -> > -> -- Matt > -> > -> --- > -> E-mail: > -> matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net > -> matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk > -> mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com > -> Web Page: > -> http://knm.yi.org/ > -> http://pkl.net/~matt/ > -> > -> PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > -> PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > -> > -> > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 14 11:10:53 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B48@acdfwx3.acdin.de. ittind.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010814110929.02e503b0@pc> At 10:40 AM 8/14/01 -0500, Messick, Gary wrote: >I think Xerox bought Kurzweil's speech recognition unit. So it might be >some sort of speech recognition board (probably coupled with other software >of course!) See http://www.kurzweiltech.com/aboutray.html . They made a number of other unique products, hardware and software. - John From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 14 11:57:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card References: <590.626T1050T1054491optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <005101c124e2$42d5c800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> IIRC, it's possible it's associated with scanner/OCR processes. One of my colleagues had a set of three or four ISA cards, each of which had four 68030's on it, each with what I then saw as a significant amount of RAM for its task. He was using that together with a pretty fancy set of software for a MAJOR automatic transcription task, and, from what I gathered, it did a good job. I don't know about your board, but the ones I saw were fully packed on both sides. It was, for the time, VERY impressive to see. The results were pretty impressive, too, as he'd converted about 6000 pages of text into a searchable document on a set of CD's. Kurzweil is associated with speech-to-text and similar processing tasks, (see www.kurzweiltech.com/aboutray.html ) and multi-processor boards are known to speed such tasks up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Classic computing" Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: 68020 ISA card > Found an interesting card in the trays of a small computer shop. It's an 8-bit > card with a 68020 on it. The card is full-length, with a piece sandwiched onto > it at one end. It's by a Xerox company with a German name; Kurzweil? > Any leads as to what this might be? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition > of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to > the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its > initial impact on the world. > J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture > > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 14 12:19:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 14, 2001 11:56:57 AM Message-ID: <200108141719.f7EHJZH24335@narnia.int.dittman.net> > And I'll bet you they could do it cheaper with a single IBM mainframe than > thousands of PCs. The power savings alone would be tremendous. A 9672 G7 > xSeries can run hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Linux images in > LPARs or under VM, all at speeds comparable to quick PCs. We've just got a new box in to replace an R66, and it is a Z47 (although not a Freeway). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 12:20:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card In-Reply-To: Re: 68020 ISA card (Richard Erlacher) References: <590.626T1050T1054491optimus@canit.se> <005101c124e2$42d5c800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15225.24029.784261.592865@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 14, Richard Erlacher wrote: > IIRC, it's possible it's associated with scanner/OCR processes. One of my > colleagues had a set of three or four ISA cards, each of which had four 68030's > on it, each with what I then saw as a significant amount of RAM for its task. > He was using that together with a pretty fancy set of software for a MAJOR > automatic transcription task, and, from what I gathered, it did a good job. > > I don't know about your board, but the ones I saw were fully packed on both > sides. It was, for the time, VERY impressive to see. The results were pretty > impressive, too, as he'd converted about 6000 pages of text into a searchable > document on a set of CD's. This sounds like some boards made by Calera that I used back in '90 or so. They were pretty impressive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu Tue Aug 14 13:26:53 2001 From: mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu (Matt Wilda) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <3B78BFA3.3CEB3CF8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200108141726.NAA23014@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> > That's what I did with my first PC. I had an XT and a PC, and I > thought the PC was dead because it wasn't booting like the XT. Then I > left in on while messing around with the XT, and all of a sudden it > booted. I felt much better, knowing that the second half of my new > acquisition booted too, even if it did take longer :-) No, it isn't that. I remember before when I first turned it on there would be a flashing cursor in the upper left corner of the screen. Now there isn't even that. I waited several minutes and there were no beeps or disk activity, either. And I know the monitor works because I tested it on another computer. > I sold the PC on Ebay after I was tired of it. Yeah, I'm the guy that bought it :-) This is your old PC. BTW, a friend of mine was able to get me another monitor for it. I'll try messing with it a little more this afternoon. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 12:27:10 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:22 2005 Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale Message-ID: >>One important note is that this is NOT a "first come, first served" sale. >>In order to have some fairness to the international and digest members of >>the list, if I get more people interested in an item than I have on hand, I >>will throw names into a hat and pick randomly. > >Have one of our distinguished assembly programmers write you a program to >randomly pick names. > Actually, isn't there some Apple II BASIC program running about that was recently used to pick some obscure contest winner?? :-) :-) Perhaps I could use that?? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 12:37:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale In-Reply-To: Re: Commodore Stuff For Sale (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) References: Message-ID: <15225.25072.33486.925497@phaduka.neurotica.com> "I took the shot, there was no danger..." -Dave On August 14, mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com wrote: > > Have one of our distinguished assembly programmers write you a program to > randomly pick names. > > - M.S. > > > > > > > "Rich Beaudry" @classiccmp.org on 08/14/2001 > 08:24:38 AM > > Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > To: > cc: > > Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale > > > Hello all, > > I posted some Commodore stuff to my website, for sale. 99% of the items > are > $2.00 or $5.00, so no outrageous pricing (you also pay shipping, of > course). > > http://members.tripod.com/glhturbo/commo.html (Apologies for the annoying > Tripod banner). > > All the details are there... > > One important note is that this is NOT a "first come, first served" sale. > In order to have some fairness to the international and digest members of > the list, if I get more people interested in an item than I have on hand, I > will throw names into a hat and pick randomly. > > Thanks! > > Rich B. > > > -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Aug 14 12:42:37 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: What is a QBus Z-Board by Virtual Microsystems Message-ID: <33.196908bf.28aabd0d@aol.com> Going through my old Qbus and Unibus cards getting them ready to sell I found a very interesting card with four Z80 based computers on a Qbus card. It appears to me to be four complete 8 bit computers on a quad card, each with CPU and memory but no I/O. It is all socketed chips with the only other large chips being a pair of 2901 bit slicers. It is copyrighted 1983 by Virtual Microsystems and called the Z-Board. Made in the USA. Any idea what it was and what it was used for? Google turned up nothing other than VM was bought and sold several times. Three pictures at http://members.aol.com/innfogra/zboard.jpg A single one at http://members.aol.com/innfogra/zboard2.jpg If interested in purchase please contact me off list, here or at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton Astoria -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/645326c9/attachment.html From pete.rickard at carlingtech.com Tue Aug 14 08:43:01 2001 From: pete.rickard at carlingtech.com (Pete Rickard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: New stuff (HP9000) Message-ID: <200108141746.MAA37417@opal.tseinc.com> Hello, group- This is my first posting (I'm on SurvPC primarily).... I found the list during a google search for *HP-UX*, trying to find other HP9000 series users. Glad to have found this group, if for no other good reason than to be able to point to someone else when *normal* people come to my house and remark, "Gad! What a massive pile of old junk down here!" My own HP model 540 still has *OLD* HP-UX 5.-something on it. It also has compilers for Pascal, ForTran and 'c' (of course). It was the host to an '80s GrafTek GMS CAD system, 12+ users, from which I also saved a Meteor II workstation (including a Summagraphics Bit Pad 2 tablet and a huge Hitachi HM4119, EIA RS-343A compatible monitor). I've not much to offer except that I have quite a bit of mid-80's HP docs on this system... anyway, most hardware that I saved is as follows: HP 9050A - The basic unit, 8Mb RAM, 2x8 multiplexers, IOP (2) CPU's, etc.** HP 9144A - DC cartridge drive, works as emergency boot system (if lucky) HP 7914 - Hard disk drive, 128Mb, original in 1985 HP 7958 - Hard disk drive, 130+Mb "compact" (the root disk) HP 7974A - 9 track tape drive (the 'Man from U.N.C.L.E.' drive, as my big brother refers to it :-) HP 2934 - Dot-matrix printer (HP-IB) on top of its original cabinet HP 2392A - System console, green-on-black screen (saved 2 of these!) **includes 27125A LAN card CIO 802.3 (10mbps) BNC (there were two networked 9000's) and 28641A ThinLAN micro-MAU (RG58C/U), IEEE 802.3 spec...(throwing all the specs in there to anticipate queries...) -I could use an HP-IB floppy drive I suppose, if one happens along... Oh, BTW- here at work I use an iMac connected to our DEC Alpha using VersaTerm PRO terminal emulator. Login message includes this: "OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.1-2" Regards, -Pete wrote in part: > A reasonable weekend: > - - HP 9000/834 + 7959 disk with HP-UX 8.x. > Interestingly the 834 case is the same as the 9000/550 case. "640k ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 - - - - - Pete Rickard Product Engineer Carling Technologies Plainville CT USA From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 13:03:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: LOL Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Rich Beaudry wrote: > >>One important note is that this is NOT a "first come, first served" sale. > >>In order to have some fairness to the international and digest members of > >>the list, if I get more people interested in an item than I have on hand, > I > >>will throw names into a hat and pick randomly. > > > > >Have one of our distinguished assembly programmers write you a program to > >randomly pick names. > > > Actually, isn't there some Apple II BASIC program running about that was > recently used to pick some obscure contest winner?? :-) :-) > > Perhaps I could use that?? > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 13:02:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn In-Reply-To: <200108141719.f7EHJZH24335@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: What do you think so far? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > And I'll bet you they could do it cheaper with a single IBM mainframe than > > thousands of PCs. The power savings alone would be tremendous. A 9672 G7 > > xSeries can run hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Linux images in > > LPARs or under VM, all at speeds comparable to quick PCs. > > We've just got a new box in to replace an R66, and it is a Z47 (although > not a Freeway). > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. > From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 14 13:08:01 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Commodore Stuff For Sale In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Aug 14, 01 01:27:10 pm Message-ID: <200108141808.OAA21256@wordstock.com> > > >>One important note is that this is NOT a "first come, first served" sale. > >>In order to have some fairness to the international and digest members of > >>the list, if I get more people interested in an item than I have on hand, > I > >>will throw names into a hat and pick randomly. > > > > >Have one of our distinguished assembly programmers write you a program to > >randomly pick names. > > > Actually, isn't there some Apple II BASIC program running about that was > recently used to pick some obscure contest winner?? :-) :-) And recently made!! :-D New software for a classic system!! And with a wicked cool random name picker!!! It doesn't get *any* better then this!! > > Perhaps I could use that?? Oh.. And it has been tested in the field... ;) Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 13:24:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010813180146.H336-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 13, 1 06:37:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/254e837d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 13:26:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 13, 1 06:15:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 112 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/8c3c0af6/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 13:45:14 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn s 20) [longish] Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225616@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > And I'll bet you they could do it cheaper with a single IBM mainframe than > thousands of PCs. The power savings alone would be tremendous. A 9672 G7 > xSeries can run hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Linux images in > LPARs or under VM, all at speeds comparable to quick PCs. Sadly, and many years after I left the local public school corp that brought me together with my first Prime, they replaced a power-hungry Prime 9950 with a *much* (read: no more dedicated transformer outside) less hungry model 4450. Which, I understand, they kept for two years before succumbing to the PeeCee disease.... oh sh*t, new lyrics for Dire Straights' Industrial Disease are coming to mind ***ClassicCmp SONG LYRIC FILTER INVOKED*** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 13:36:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: from "Matt London" at Aug 14, 1 10:21:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/e01f0f41/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 13:41:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225610@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Aug 14, 1 08:33:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 718 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/5262f92d/attachment.ksh From matt at knm.yi.org Tue Aug 14 14:15:55 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: New stuff (HP9000) In-Reply-To: <200108141746.MAA37417@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hi, > -I could use an HP-IB floppy drive I suppose, if one happens along... Like the one under my desk I'd like to get rid of? :&) Where are you? -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From hansp at aconit.org Tue Aug 14 14:19:36 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Was: Commodore Stuff For Sale References: <200108141808.OAA21256@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3B7979C8.533C088A@aconit.org> > And recently made!! :-D New software for a classic system!! And with a > wicked cool random name picker!!! It doesn't get *any* better then this!! We recently had a lottery where the particpants punched their name and a number onto punched cards. The winner was selected with the help of old IBM 082 sorter. Modern equipment - who needs it ... ;-) No I'm NOT using the punched card equipment for email! -- HBP From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 14 14:31:28 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 07:36:56PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20010814143128.F5613806@uiuc.edu> Tony Duell said: > > > > Hi, > > I've got a PS/2 keyboard (IBM keyboards were the best thing to happen to > > PC keyboard IMHO, apart from the first one) but unfortunatly the cable is > > going on this one. I was wondering if anyone would have such a thing as a > > replacement cable (silly flat connector at one end to PS2 at the > > other) :&) > > If you get no other help, I can find you the pinout of that IBM flat > keyboard connector. You can get the PS/2 keyboard pinouts off the web, > and wire up a cable. You might have to solder to the PCB traces inside > the keyboard, as you'll never find that flat connector... I've seen these flat connectors (though I don't actually have a cable), and I believe that they're physically the same a the connector HP uses for HP-HIL keyboards & mice, and those aren't so uncommon... So I guess you could try to dig up an HIL cable and solder a PS/2 connector onto the end :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 14 14:33:23 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 07:41:25PM +0100 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225610@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010814143323.G5613806@uiuc.edu> Tony Duell said: > As I think I've mentioned before, in about 1988, I connected a CBM 8050 > disk drive to a Philips P850 minicomputer (A homebrew board of TTL > between the GPIB port on the former and the DIOC ports on the latter). Speaking of GPIB/HPIB disks, does anyone have one they'd be willing to part with? I've got an HP 9000/300 (I don't remember which, but it has a 68030 with MMU so it'll run netbsd), but no disk for it so I haven't really done anything with it yet... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From claudew at videotron.ca Tue Aug 14 14:47:39 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Wanted : 8" boot disk for TRS80 Model II Message-ID: <002301c124f9$fa1ac6c0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> I have fanilly gotten around to checking this model II/expansion box that was saved from garbage truck. Very clean, no crt burn and a missing keyboard problem that was solved by Hans Franke sending one he had all the way from Germany! Id like to show this thing off a bit more then just turning it on and seeing ask for a disk....I dont think Ill be able to boot this from 5.25" 1.2M drives connected to this... The unit came with a single 8" diskette that does not boot (written "accounts receivable"). I dont know if its the floppy drive that is bad or its not a bootable diskette or....internal 8" floppy drive looks "alive" anyways... So I am asking if anyone as a easy way of making an 8" boot disk in this situation or would be nice enough to provide me with one. Id like to get at least one. Better would be one of each OS this thing ran and a few softs. I have a fairly large "for trade/giveaway" list of witch you could pick something to thank you for the troubles... Thanks Claude http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 14 14:43:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 13, 1 06:15:36 pm Message-ID: >> Simple solution, software people should unionize. > >And why should they be ionised in the first place? Iconized is just the GUIway. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 14 14:50:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <3B7979C8.533C088A@aconit.org> References: <200108141808.OAA21256@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Who reads their email the most Classically? I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is it? From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1164.monmouth.com Tue Aug 14 14:57:49 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1164.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: What is a QBus Z-Board by Virtual Microsystems In-Reply-To: <33.196908bf.28aabd0d@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "Aug 14, 2001 01:42:37 pm" Message-ID: <200108141957.f7EJvng08893@bg-tc-ppp1164.monmouth.com> > Going through my old Qbus and Unibus cards getting them ready to sell I found > a very interesting card with four Z80 based computers on a Qbus card. It > appears to me to be four complete 8 bit computers on a quad card, each with > CPU and memory but no I/O. It is all socketed chips with the only other large > chips being a pair of 2901 bit slicers. > > It is copyrighted 1983 by Virtual Microsystems and called the Z-Board. Made > in the USA. > > Any idea what it was and what it was used for? Google turned up nothing other > than VM was bought and sold several times. > > Three pictures at http://members.aol.com/innfogra/zboard.jpg > > A single one at http://members.aol.com/innfogra/zboard2.jpg > > If interested in purchase please contact me off list, here or at > whoagiii@aol.com. > > Paxton > Astoria It ran Z80 based CP/M applications on this board under VAX/VMS. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 14 15:23:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 14, 2001 02:02:25 PM Message-ID: <200108142023.f7EKNNr05878@narnia.int.dittman.net> > What do you think so far? I don't do all that much on the mainframe, but my systems work with the mainframe over SNA. The application software has come up without a hitch so far. What funny is the mainframe CICS support people moved the test CICS regions over from the LPAR on the R66 to the LPAR on the Z47 without anyone noticing (thanks to VTAM). APPLIDs sure do come in handy. This Sunday is the big switch of the production environment. I'll be around just in case. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 15:31:27 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I use 'mail' now and then, but most of the time either PINE or Elm. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > it? > > From sieler at allegro.com Tue Aug 14 15:47:58 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: New stuff (HP9000) In-Reply-To: <200108141746.MAA37417@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B792C0E.13233.C2E32E@localhost> Re: > This is my first posting (I'm on SurvPC primarily).... I found the list > during a google search for *HP-UX*, trying to find other HP9000 > series users. Although oriented more to the recent HP 9000s: comp.sys.hp.hpux and the very low volume mailing list: HP9000-L (info at http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp9000-l.html) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 14 15:49:57 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 14, 2001 12:50:13 PM Message-ID: <200108142049.QAA11832@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > it? I still use elm [1] although I get some flack for it [2]. I've been using elm since 1989 and have no real plans on changing [3]. -spc (Likes that it uses the vi movement keys ... ) [1] Pine stands for ``Pine Is Not Elm.'' I sill don't like the way pine works which is why I don't use it. That, and MIME is eeeeeevil and I refuse to support it 8-) [2] From my pine and mutt using friends. [3] Although since elm is no longer supported, and some spam I've received has caused it to crash (probably hitting some internal header line limit no less) I'm thinking (still thinking) of trying out mutt. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 14 15:58:27 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <200108141726.NAA23014@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: I just pulled one of my excess 5150's out of storage today and had the same problem. Pulled and reseated all cards, PS cables P8 and P9, lifted and reseated the dram chips and 8086/8087 processor chips and she works fine. Although my storage is dry, we are in a humid area and the storage has no A/C or heat. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Matt Wilda -> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:27 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Dead PC -> -> -> > That's what I did with my first PC. I had an XT and a PC, and I -> > thought the PC was dead because it wasn't booting like the XT. Then I -> > left in on while messing around with the XT, and all of a sudden it -> > booted. I felt much better, knowing that the second half of my new -> > acquisition booted too, even if it did take longer :-) -> -> No, it isn't that. I remember before when I first turned it on -> there would be a flashing cursor in the upper left corner of the -> screen. Now there isn't even that. I waited several minutes -> and there were no beeps or disk activity, either. And I know -> the monitor works because I tested it on another computer. -> -> > I sold the PC on Ebay after I was tired of it. -> -> Yeah, I'm the guy that bought it :-) This is your old PC. BTW, -> a friend of mine was able to get me another monitor for it. -> -> I'll try messing with it a little more this afternoon. Thanks -> to everyone for the suggestions. -> -> From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 14 16:00:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 14, 2001 12:50:13 PM Message-ID: <200108142100.f7EL0aS16950@shell1.aracnet.com> > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > it? I use the following, Eudora on a G4/450 PowerMac, Elm on my ISP's Linux shell (sometimes telnet'd in from a PDP-11), and VMS Mail or Mailbox on VMS (I use Mailbox when sending as it's got a good address book, and VMS mail for reading and replying as it's got the better interface). Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 15:58:00 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Who reads their email the most Classically? (Mike Ford) References: <200108141808.OAA21256@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <15225.37080.906856.650858@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 14, Mike Ford wrote: > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > it? Surely this is a matter of opinion, and I'm not a Pine user myself, but I haven't seen many mailers that I'd consider "further evolved" than Pine. Myself, I use VM under XEmacs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 14 16:00:55 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 04:31:27PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010814160055.B5627592@uiuc.edu> I use 'mutt'. It is the master of all mailers. Master of all that Sucks said: > > I use 'mail' now and then, but most of the time either PINE or Elm. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > > it? > > > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From sieler at allegro.com Tue Aug 14 16:09:07 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: References: <"l03102802b79f30c0f12b(a)(091)192.168.1.4(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <3B793103.13802.D6420D@localhost> Re: > > Who reads their email the most Classically? or complicatedly? elm ... running in an hpterm window under CDE on HP-UX, presented via Reflection X on a PC running Win98. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 14 16:23:16 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108142049.QAA11832@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "Aug 14, 2001 04:49:57 pm" Message-ID: <200108142123.OAA24961@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > [3] Although since elm is no longer supported, and some spam I've > received has caused it to crash (probably hitting some internal > header line limit no less) I'm thinking (still thinking) of > trying out mutt. There still are groups supporting elm. I use Elm 2.4ME+ PL67 (Jan, 2000), but will likely switch over to Elm 2.4ME+ PL92 (May, 2001) in the near term future. Elm 2.5 was different enough to be annoying to use. PGP support in 2.4ME+ is better anyway. Eric From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 16:33:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <15225.37080.906856.650858@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Now that I think about it, I might have a lot of people beat. At work, I use PROFS on IBM CMS. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Surely this is a matter of opinion, and I'm not a Pine user myself, > but I haven't seen many mailers that I'd consider "further evolved" > than Pine. > > Myself, I use VM under XEmacs. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 16:39:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turn In-Reply-To: <200108142023.f7EKNNr05878@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > What do you think so far? > > I don't do all that much on the mainframe, but my systems work > with the mainframe over SNA. The application software has come > up without a hitch so far. What funny is the mainframe CICS > support people moved the test CICS regions over from the LPAR > on the R66 to the LPAR on the Z47 without anyone noticing > (thanks to VTAM). APPLIDs sure do come in handy. That's pretty neat. I really like the redirection and hardware partitioning capabilities of mainframes. Mainframes kick a wide variety of batch-processing ass. > This Sunday is the big switch of the production environment. I'll > be around just in case Cool. Let me know how it goes. Peace... Sridhar . > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. > From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 14 16:40:30 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 14, 01 12:50:13 pm Message-ID: <200108142140.RAA27396@wordstock.com> I use elm under QNX 4 Cheers, Bryan Pope > > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > it? > > > From matt at knm.yi.org Tue Aug 14 16:43:41 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > it? MAILERWARS! I use pine myself - nothing special really :&) I use mail occasionally too -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 14 11:31:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <567.626T2850T10516199optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >Seriously, what's a demo programmer? A programmer who writes >only demo software? As in mock-ups? Prototypes? A demo is a demonstration, showing off your programming/gfx/music talent. The demo crews arrange demo parties where they display their demos and win prices. It's all about pushing the limits of what's possible on a computer. Still, I doubt that Doug would like demo programmers. They're usually all quick'n'dirty, not a trace of the kind of academic programming practices which Doug seems to prefer. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From sieler at allegro.com Tue Aug 14 16:59:48 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108142049.QAA11832@conman.org> References: <"l03102802b79f30c0f12b(a)(091)192.168.1.4(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <3B793CE4.8143.104ABA5@localhost> Re: > [3] Although since elm is no longer supported, and some spam I've > received has caused it to crash (probably hitting some internal > header line limit no less) I'm thinking (still thinking) of > trying out mutt. I had the same problem with one spam message. I got around it by running elm with "-d 1" (for "debug"). (I didn't see any debug output, and I didn't do anything else special. I then deleted the offending message.) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 14 17:12:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722561B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Simple solution, software people should unionize. > > And why should they be ionised in the first place? Severe belly cramps are probably keeping anyone from replying to this one, Tony... Some bosses *should* be ionized... that way, sh*t _would_ stick to them... -dq From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Aug 14 17:14:23 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: New stuff (HP9000) In-Reply-To: Pete Rickard's message of "14 Aug 01 13:43:01 +0000" References: <200108141746.MAA37417@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <200108142214.f7EMEOF86192@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Pete Rickard wrote: > This is my first posting (I'm on SurvPC primarily).... I found the list > during a google search for *HP-UX*, trying to find other HP9000 > series users. There's a *very* quiet list for the 9000 series 500s at nvc.cc.ca.us. (Last message was in March.) I think the subscription instructions are to send an e-mail message as follows: To: hp9000-500-request@nvc.cc.ca.us Subject: subscribe hp9000-500 -Frank McConnell From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 14 17:45:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm cat /var/spool/mail/geneb | more (followed by) telnet smtp.somehost.org 25..... g. On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Matt London wrote: > Hi, > > > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out > > there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is > > it? > > MAILERWARS! > > I use pine myself - nothing special really :&) > > I use mail occasionally too > > -- Matt > > --- > E-mail: > matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net > matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk > mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com > Web Page: > http://knm.yi.org/ > http://pkl.net/~matt/ > > PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 17:26:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: <20010814143128.F5613806@uiuc.edu> from "Dan Wright" at Aug 14, 1 02:31:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/c7a5ff0f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 17:28:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <20010814143323.G5613806@uiuc.edu> from "Dan Wright" at Aug 14, 1 02:33:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/3db55b88/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 17:22:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722561B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Aug 14, 1 06:12:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 612 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/41f70e14/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 17:30:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Wanted : 8" boot disk for TRS80 Model II In-Reply-To: <002301c124f9$fa1ac6c0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> from "Claude.W" at Aug 14, 1 03:47:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010814/4574d7b0/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Tue Aug 14 18:36:07 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, I've also seen them on some name-brand clone keyboards (I think > Compaq) and IBM PC/AT keyboards (like the one I am typing on at the > moment). All had the same pinout (not in any way related to HP-HIL, of > course. No, the Compaq cable is different. I know for a fact that a cable from an old Compaq keyboard will NOT work with an IBM keyboard. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 18:37:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Aug 14, 1 07:36:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1217 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/a283e390/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 14 18:17:17 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody > out there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, > who is it? I'm reading mine on a CARDIAC. You should see my IP-to-Paper gateway! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 19:19:05 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But these cables are still made in quantity by Unicomp (the people who own the rights to the original IBM design). Peace... Sridhar From ljcst18+ at pitt.edu Tue Aug 14 19:37:23 2001 From: ljcst18+ at pitt.edu (LUCAS J CASHDOLLAR) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello All, My university used pine until about a year ago when they switched to mulberry a graphical bloat-wear email program. It takes 20 times longer to load, but its got grpahics and it likes to crash a hell of a lot. All hail the bloat-wear nazis and their inefficiency at making our lives easier. Luke From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 19:57:02 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:23 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? (LUCAS J CASHDOLLAR) References: Message-ID: <15225.51422.92933.530826@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 14, LUCAS J CASHDOLLAR wrote: > My university used pine until about a year ago when they switched > to mulberry a graphical bloat-wear email program. It takes 20 times > longer to load, but its got grpahics and it likes to crash a hell of a > lot. All hail the bloat-wear nazis and their inefficiency at making our > lives easier. Is it possible to bring in your own software? If pine is what you prefer, why not use a local copy of it in your home directory? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Aug 14 20:19:52 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Aug 14, 1 04:17:17 pm" Message-ID: <200108150119.SAA09562@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Who reads their email the most Classically? > > > > I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody > > out there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, > > who is it? > > I'm reading mine on a CARDIAC. You should see my IP-to-Paper gateway! I read my mail on an ANS 500 running Elm. Usually it's the G3 over Telnet, but very often it's the C128 over T232, whichever strikes my fancy. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Aug 14 20:55:33 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: <3B78BC6A.4BFAC0B7@internet1.net> References: <4.1.20010813200149.02024de0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.20010814205618.00b3aaa0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:51 AM 8/14/01 -0400, Chad Fernandez said something like: >Wow, I'd love to take a look at his bike. Urals are sold in America >now, but ours are slightly different. They start out as parts from >Russia and Ural America, or whatever it's called, builds the bikes using >the Russian parts along with parts from other sources, in order to make >a more reliable bike. They're supposed to be pretty sweet rides, from >what I read on the web. Those side car wheels are powered too :-) This machine is not a sidecar model. It is one of three prototypes made in 1995 exported to a dealer around Munich to check out whether there was a market. (No, there wasn't!) The machine was intended to be a utility vehicle for use on construction sites to carry small loads. Other uses could be imagined I suppose. I believe Hans mentioned it was presently sold in Russia for the same purpose but in a decidedly updated form. The machine Hans has uses a rear axle and leaf springs from a small, common Russian passenger car called "Moskova" or something like that (IIRC!). The driveshaft out of the Ural gearbox goes through an amidships mounted gearbox which connects to the rear axle through another driveshaft. The middle gearbox evidently matches the gearing of the rearend to the motorcycle gearbox output speed. The cargo box is roughly 4 ft wide x 5 ft long x ~1.5 ft deep. It has a 2.5 ft wide x ~1.5 ft tall door with simple, rather light duty (and poorly welded) hinges on the back of the box. This cargo box affair is mounted upon a boxed frame shackled onto the leaf springs. There is a canvas/vinyl toneau cover which covers the box and a sturdy aluminum frame mounted to the four corners of the box upon 8 inch tall x ~1/2" diameter threaded rod standoffs. The tent is bolted to this frame. Anyway, the box already has several classic computer items within it and is ready to be filled to the top with more (to get this danged thread back towards topic ;-) I didn't see it myself, but there was a Ural with sidecar for sale at our large antique car fleamarket in Dunkirk, NY back in May. The guys who saw Hans' machine Saturday run that flea market and therefore had an approximate idea what they were looking at. > >I'm not even sure if they call them Urals in Russia. I read the history >of it all at one time, but I don't recall everything now. They had some >three letter name too. Here's a URL (for the URaL ;-) that may be of interest for the history mavens out there: http://www.ural.com/history/index.htm The site is framed and the main page is: http://www.ural.com/home_frame.htm It's the US site for Ural. Yes, they do call them Ural in Russia. For those who can read Russian, here's the URL: http://www.ural.ru/ > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Christian Fandt wrote: >> So now he's got >> communication when that Russian-made three-wheel cycle breaks down out at >> the head of nowhere ;-) We got the rear door hinge welded properly by one >> of my friends after it broke during the sea trip over. Hans figures the >> welder in the Ural factory had too much vodka that day. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Aug 14 20:56:30 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20010814215550.00b3bf00@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:38 AM 8/14/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > >> LOL. You pessimist 8-) > >Naw, more of a realist ;) Exactly. You should see the rig. -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 14 21:04:05 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm reading mine on a CARDIAC. You should see my IP-to-Paper gateway! > Message-ID: ^^^^ Does this mean that you've succeeded in porting PINE to run on CARDIAC? THAT would be worthy of an exhibit at VCF! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Aug 14 21:18:33 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108142123.OAA24961@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Aug 14, 1 02:23:16 pm" Message-ID: <200108150218.TAA09130@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Elm 2.5 was different enough to be annoying to use. PGP support in 2.4ME+ > is better anyway. Yes, I strongly prefer ME to 2.5. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------------------ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 21:50:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indeed. I would pay double just to see someone pulling their hair out trying to run that at any speed 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I'm reading mine on a CARDIAC. You should see my IP-to-Paper gateway! > > > Message-ID: > ^^^^ > Does this mean that you've succeeded in porting PINE to run on CARDIAC? > THAT would be worthy of an exhibit at VCF! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 14 22:48:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <579.627T2700T2886097optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >Who reads their email the most Classically? >I am not classic at all, running Eudora on a PowerMac, but somebody out >there must be farther back than pine in the email evolution chain, who is >it? I think Cameron's using a C128D as a terminal. And Tony runs a hideously expanded IBM AT. My computer won't be classic for another year. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Your hamster might, despite some encouraging first steps, never be able to fully grasp the concept of Logical Markup. -- The Not So Short Introduction to LaTex2e, "Disadvantages of LaTex" From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 14 22:48:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: <20010814143128.F5613806@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <507.627T2450T2886583optimus@canit.se> Dan Wright skrev: >I've seen these flat connectors (though I don't actually have a cable), and I >believe that they're physically the same a the connector HP uses for HP-HIL >keyboards & mice, and those aren't so uncommon... So I guess you could try >to dig up an HIL cable and solder a PS/2 connector onto the end :) Then again that would be shame since PS/2 cables are far more common than HIL ones. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From optimus at canit.se Tue Aug 14 22:43:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <789.627T800T2834013optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I've got a PS/2 keyboard (IBM keyboards were the best thing to happen to >> PC keyboard IMHO, apart from the first one) but unfortunatly the cable is >> going on this one. I was wondering if anyone would have such a thing as a >> replacement cable (silly flat connector at one end to PS2 at the >> other) :&) >If you get no other help, I can find you the pinout of that IBM flat >keyboard connector. You can get the PS/2 keyboard pinouts off the web, >and wire up a cable. You might have to solder to the PCB traces inside >the keyboard, as you'll never find that flat connector... I think AMP makes the connector. Is it that hard to find? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From technos at nerdland.org Tue Aug 14 22:00:37 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card Message-ID: <01C12514.EEED5770.technos@nerdland.org> A number of companies still make so-called scan accelerator cards.. Kofax, Xerox, Canon.. Pretty much all they do is take the scanned image over a SCSI connection and compress it into a tiff or jpeg in hardware.. I've seen everything from Phillips MIPS clones to AMD embedded processors for the job. Never seen one based on a M68K tho. Not too much demand for them these days. Well, considering a PII 350 can handle 60ppm at 400dpi in software at a sane level of system load. Jim On Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:20 PM, Dave McGuire [SMTP:mcguire@neurotica.com] wrote: > On August 14, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > IIRC, it's possible it's associated with scanner/OCR processes. One > > of my > > colleagues had a set of three or four ISA cards, each of which had > > four 68030's > > on it, each with what I then saw as a significant amount of RAM for > > its task. > > He was using that together with a pretty fancy set of software for a > > MAJOR > > automatic transcription task, and, from what I gathered, it did a > > good job. > > > > I don't know about your board, but the ones I saw were fully packed > > on both > > sides. It was, for the time, VERY impressive to see. The results > > were pretty > > impressive, too, as he'd converted about 6000 pages of text into a > > searchable > > document on a set of CD's. > > This sounds like some boards made by Calera that I used back in '90 > or so. They were pretty impressive. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Aug 14 22:27:35 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) Message-ID: In a message dated 8/13/01 5:03:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: << Yeah. Two hard disk manufacturers I've never had trouble with are IBM and Fujitsu. The reason I mention Fujitsu is that their highest-end drives, and most of their oldest drives all come/came with a lifetime warranty. There has been many a time when I have found an old SCSI Fujitsu drive lying around broken somewhere, I rescue it, and they fix it up for me. I find that very impressive. >> More information about this, please? If I find a Fujitsu drive how can I tell if the lifetime warranty applies to that drive? Thanks, Glen 0/0 From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 14 22:47:46 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, it usually the large-capacity (4.5+ GB) older workstation drives. One good way to find out is to ask Fujitsu. It's the path I normally take. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > More information about this, please? If I find a Fujitsu drive how can I > tell if the lifetime warranty applies to that drive? > > Thanks, > > Glen > 0/0 > From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 14 23:10:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > And I would not consider people writing in assembly language to be at > the bottom rungs Right! I've always wondered why so many of the other programmers I have met have held assembly language in such low esteem. Depending on the particular make/model of processor you're dealing with, it can be downright elegant. I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. Who's with me? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Aug 14 23:17:58 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: HS-1 Message-ID: <6a.1200ab5d.28ab51f6@aol.com> On page 81 of the March/April 1981 issue of Sync Magazine there is a ad for a board which connects two ZX81, TS1000 or TS1500 computers, using one as the display processor and one for all other computations. The company name is Interface Design, in Rexford NY. Any info out there? Thanks, Glen 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 14 22:20:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010814215550.00b3bf00@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 07:38 AM 8/14/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: > >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > > >> LOL. You pessimist 8-) > > > >Naw, more of a realist ;) > > Exactly. You should see the rig. I adore Hans' childlike sense of adventure, but this time I am seriously concerned :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 14 22:24:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I'm reading mine on a CARDIAC. You should see my IP-to-Paper gateway! > > > Message-ID: > ^^^^ > Does this mean that you've succeeded in porting PINE to run on CARDIAC? > THAT would be worthy of an exhibit at VCF! Yes! The paper that the software is coded on stands 47 feet tall! It takes me a week to reply to a single message, having to enter all the instructions in by hand (and also because it's running a PC emulator). If it wasn't for the time-suspension device I have then I would never be able to keep up with the list :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 14 23:32:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722560B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010814231842.G3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > And as to lusers with a little too much knowledge... yeah, they can be > a problem, and a LART's not always at hand... ...or worth the resulting jail time! :-) > Well, you won't get much disagreement from me here... but I've seen > COBOL code that was more spaghetti'd out than the worst BASIC I've > seen... BASIC is an OK starting point for someone who's destined to be a good programmer. Its problem is that it doesn't do enough to weed out the bad ones, who will then progress furthur into the trade on the false assumption that they have what it takes. I reference my previous post about assembly language... ;-D -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 14 23:41:16 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I've got a PS/2 keyboard (IBM keyboards were the best thing to happen to > > PC keyboard IMHO, apart from the first one) but unfortunatly the cable is > > going on this one. I was wondering if anyone would have such a thing as a > > replacement cable (silly flat connector at one end to PS2 at the > > other) :&) > > If you get no other help, I can find you the pinout of that IBM flat > keyboard connector. You can get the PS/2 keyboard pinouts off the web, > and wire up a cable. You might have to solder to the PCB traces inside > the keyboard, as you'll never find that flat connector... Tony, since he says that his cable is going (south?), I would assume that he would have the flat connector unless it is a molded on kind of thing that would be destroyed in opening it up. Also, he should be able to 'ring out' the end to end pinouts. - don From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 14 23:42:46 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <20010814160055.B5627592@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20010814233950.R3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Pine here. =P! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 14 23:49:29 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <567.626T2850T10516199optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010814234512.A3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 14 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > A demo is a demonstration, showing off your programming/gfx/music > talent. The demo crews arrange demo parties where they display their > demos and win prices. It's all about pushing the limits of what's > possible on a computer. Somehow I doubt that part of making one of these demos is seeing how many bytes you can optimize out of an assembly language loop, or seeing how quick you can make that shiny new script parser parse. No, I think I would get laughed at... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 14 23:56:50 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010814235217.P3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Funny... I haven't seen very many people announcing their use of Micro$oft Virus Transfer Utility Express I guess the magic eight-ball was right when it told me "Outlook not so good" Sorry for the recycled jokes. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 15 00:02:18 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: <200108142049.QAA11832@conman.org> Message-ID: This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70, ex Nashua Telegraph. A large, and very difficult system to move. Among the interesting bits that followed it home: a PDT-11 2 Vt-52`s a VT-62 (What`s a VT-62? PDP-8a LSI-11 system? PDP-8 partially stripped, but with paper tape reader. Rainbow Vaxmate - parts. From dittman at dittman.net Wed Aug 15 00:27:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 14, 2001 11:10:25 PM Message-ID: <200108150527.f7F5Rmv07237@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > And I would not consider people writing in assembly language to be at > > the bottom rungs > > Right! I've always wondered why so many of the other programmers I have > met have held assembly language in such low esteem. Depending on the > particular make/model of processor you're dealing with, it can be > downright elegant. > > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > Who's with me? I learned programming on the TRS-80 in both BASIC and Z-80 Assembly at the same time. I preferred assembly language. One of my favorite languages is MACRO-32 on the VAX. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 15 00:29:35 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Dead PC References: <200108141726.NAA23014@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <3B7A08BF.82551341@internet1.net> Oh Wow, I didn't recognize your name until you said that! Sorry to hear your having trouble with it. Remind me what cards are in it? I get the PC and XT's I owned all mixed up. I think I had an AST Six Pak Plus in it, if it's still installed, make sure all the memory in that card is still seated too. I remember having a hard time bringing the computer up one time. I think all I did was push down on the memory chips to get it reliable again. Since this much time has passed, it might be a good idea to pull the socketed ram chips and clean them. I have heard of some Apple // guys using some sort of cleaner on chips.... I think it was something like TarnX, or something found at the grocery store. Maybe Tony could recommend something, too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Matt Wilda wrote: > > I sold the PC on Ebay after I was tired of it. > > Yeah, I'm the guy that bought it :-) This is your old PC. BTW, a friend of mine was able to get me another monitor for it. > > I'll try messing with it a little more this afternoon. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 15 00:31:00 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > And I would not consider people writing in assembly language to be at > > the bottom rungs > > Right! I've always wondered why so many of the other programmers I have > met have held assembly language in such low esteem. Depending on the > particular make/model of processor you're dealing with, it can be > downright elegant. I have the highest respect for assembler programmers. It's hard to do well. It's just that I don't like the people who call themselves programmers, but only know enough to patch something so they don't have to spend their precious $35 on an activation code. > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > Who's with me? I think S/360-S/370 assembler would work quite well. It starts out exceedingly simple, then moves to variable length opcodes, variable word length, four-level indirection, etc. Doesn't require it to do useful stuff though. But I am a bit biased towards mainframes. Peace... Sridhar > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 15 00:33:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oooh. Nice find. The first DEC system I ever saw. My father had one in the house he used to do FORTRAN on when I was about 3. What I first learned how to hack on. He still has it in original condition. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70, ex Nashua Telegraph. > > A large, and very difficult system to move. Among the interesting bits > that followed it home: > > a PDT-11 > 2 Vt-52`s > a VT-62 (What`s a VT-62? > PDP-8a > LSI-11 system? > PDP-8 partially stripped, but with paper tape reader. > Rainbow > Vaxmate - parts. > > > From technos at nerdland.org Wed Aug 15 01:25:45 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Dead PC Message-ID: <01C12531.972C69A0.technos@nerdland.org> Any fine metal cleaner should work, just apply with a Q-Tip and rinse well with water. IBM uses a dilute phosphoric acid solution, as does HP. I normally use 00 or finer steel wool, and just a little. I've also used commercial jewelery cleaner, and above mentioned Q-Tip.. Jim On Wednesday, August 15, 2001 1:30 AM, Chad Fernandez [SMTP:fernande@internet1.net] wrote: > pull > the socketed ram chips and clean them. I have heard of some Apple // > guys using some sort of cleaner on chips.... I think it was something > like TarnX, or something found at the grocery store. Maybe Tony > could > recommend something, too. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > Matt Wilda wrote: > > > I sold the PC on Ebay after I was tired of it. > > > > Yeah, I'm the guy that bought it :-) This is your old PC. BTW, a > > friend of mine was able to get me another monitor for it. > > > > I'll try messing with it a little more this afternoon. Thanks to > > everyone for the suggestions. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 15 01:44:41 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <20010814235217.P3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B7A1A59.810E583@internet1.net> I'm using Netscape Communicator 4.08 for Win9x. Not very Classic, but it seems to work well enough, and it is running on a 486 class 133mhz computer :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 15 02:21:39 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010815022026.E3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70 Congratulations! Oh wait; one less for me to snatch. Grrr! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Wed Aug 15 02:47:23 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <20010814235217.P3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 21:57 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? > > > Funny... I haven't seen very many people announcing their use of > Micro$oft Virus Transfer Utility Express > > I guess the magic eight-ball was right when it told me > "Outlook not so good" > > Sorry for the recycled jokes. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com Well, I would have spoken up, but I have no delusions of Outlook being "classic" in any way, shape, or form. I do use Pine (sometimes Mail even) all day long at work, then download everything into Outlook in the evenings. -Rob -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GAT/E d- s:- a--- C++(++++) ULS+ P+ L+ E- W++ N+(++) o K w+++ O- M- V- PS+(+++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP t- 5- X+ R- tv b++ DI++ D++ G++ e h+ r- y ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 15 02:51:50 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: References: <200108142049.QAA11832@conman.org> Message-ID: >This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70, ex Nashua Telegraph. > >A large, and very difficult system to move. Among the interesting bits >that followed it home: > >a PDT-11 >2 Vt-52`s >a VT-62 (What`s a VT-62? >PDP-8a >LSI-11 system? >PDP-8 partially stripped, but with paper tape reader. >Rainbow >Vaxmate - parts. > > Was that the 11/70 from USENET that had to be gone by today? Looks like a nice haul. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 15 03:41:09 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <3B7A1A59.810E583@internet1.net> References: <20010814235217.P3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >I'm using Netscape Communicator 4.08 for Win9x. Not very Classic, but Doesn't anybody read their email on a teletype or Tektronix vector display anymore? Nobody has their email printed as a batch job? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 15 03:37:49 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <01C12531.972C69A0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: >IBM uses a dilute phosphoric acid solution, as does HP. Good old Navel Jelly, orthophosphoric acid, seems to be at the heart of a LOT of products. Nasty stuff if you get it on the wrong thing, but in general it works great on corrosion. Personally I still have RED and Blue cans of Cramolin, and a few other contact specific cleaners and restorers. From rnlion at its.caltech.edu Wed Aug 15 04:54:16 2001 From: rnlion at its.caltech.edu (Rob Lion) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010814234512.A3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 21:49 > To: Douglas Quebbeman > Subject: RE: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > > > On 14 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > A demo is a demonstration, showing off your programming/gfx/music > > talent. The demo crews arrange demo parties where they display their > > demos and win prices. It's all about pushing the limits of what's > > possible on a computer. > > Somehow I doubt that part of making one of these demos is seeing how many > bytes you can optimize out of an assembly language loop, or seeing how > quick you can make that shiny new script parser parse. No, I think I > would get laughed at... My understanding is that, at one point at least, it was indeed about optimizing assembly loops, especially on Commodores and machines of that era... I've even read about people using disk controllers as coprocessors and disabling video interrupts and all kinds of crazy things. I think the "scene" has pretty much died down in the US, and most of the current stuff comes out of (Eastern?) Europe. There are some interesting websites out there (which I can't remember at the moment) with downloads of stuff that claims to make full use of Pentium IIIs, even, but most of it seems to use junk like DirectX. -Rob > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 06:47:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Fw: SIMH VAX Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225625@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Can anyone help our good friend Bob Supnik out? "Bob Supnik" wrote in message news:... > SIMH for VAX has been hung up for more than two years now due to lack > of documentation on I/O. (It ran the HCORE diagnostic in the spring > of '99.) I would like to emulate a CVAX based Qbus system (eg, a > MicroVAX 3000) so I need, in particular, > > - VMB code > - specs for the system support chip (CSSC) > - specs for the Qbus adapter chip (CQBIC) > - specs for the disk controller (RQDX3 or generic MSCP controller) > - specs for the Ethernet controller (DEQNA or first chip based > controllers) > > The rest of the peripherals will be standard - LP(V)11 for line > printer, DZ(V)11 for multiple terminals. > > Thanks, > > /Bob Supnik From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 06:57:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225627@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >Seriously, what's a demo programmer? A programmer who writes > >only demo software? As in mock-ups? Prototypes? > > A demo is a demonstration, showing off your programming/gfx/music talent. > The demo crews arrange demo parties where they display their demos and win > prices. It's all about pushing the limits of what's possible on a computer. > Still, I doubt that Doug would like demo programmers. They're usually all > quick'n'dirty, not a trace of the kind of academic programming practices which > Doug seems to prefer. What I don't like is dog-and-pony shows, too much sturm und drang. I *have* developed prototypes, and told the boss to keep the client as far away from seeing it as humanly possible. Let the marketing people suck the money out of the vulture capitalists, no felching for me. Maybe you're talking about programming contests? If so, you're right, I never liked them; and like multiple-choice tests, which basically test your ability to take tests, programming contests basically demonstrate your ability to demonstrate and to participate in contests, neither of which interest me. Regards, -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 07:09:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225628@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > And as to lusers with a little too much knowledge... yeah, they can be > > a problem, and a LART's not always at hand... > > ...or worth the resulting jail time! :-) Where on earth are LARTs illegal?!? And how did this come to pass?!? > > Well, you won't get much disagreement from me here... but I've seen > > COBOL code that was more spaghetti'd out than the worst BASIC I've > > seen... > > BASIC is an OK starting point for someone who's destined to be a good > programmer. Its problem is that it doesn't do enough to weed out the bad > ones, who will then progress furthur into the trade on the false > assumption that they have what it takes. I reference my previous post > about assembly language... ;-D Total agreement... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 07:12:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225629@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > And I would not consider people writing in assembly language to be at > > the bottom rungs > > Right! I've always wondered why so many of the other programmers I have > met have held assembly language in such low esteem. Depending on the > particular make/model of processor you're dealing with, it can be > downright elegant. Was it for assembly language programmers that the phrase "high priests of a low cult" was coined? or was that for mainframe guys in general? > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > Who's with me? Many schools (I.U. included) had courses that used assembly language for a hypothetical machine as the first language taught. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 07:24:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722562A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Funny... I haven't seen very many people announcing their use of > Micro$oft Virus Transfer Utility Express > > I guess the magic eight-ball was right when it told me > "Outlook not so good" > > Sorry for the recycled jokes. Ok, Jeff... that one made me split my sides, and I *hurt*.. -dq From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 15 07:33:21 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This system has, or had, 2 RL02`s, an RX01, 2 RM03`s and TE18? It was a buried in a basement and rather frazzled looking. I`m not sure whether it`s missing some side skins or not. On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > Oooh. Nice find. The first DEC system I ever saw. My father had one in > the house he used to do FORTRAN on when I was about 3. What I first > learned how to hack on. He still has it in original condition. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > > This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70, ex Nashua Telegraph. > > > > A large, and very difficult system to move. Among the interesting bits > > that followed it home: > > > > a PDT-11 > > 2 Vt-52`s > > a VT-62 (What`s a VT-62? > > PDP-8a > > LSI-11 system? > > PDP-8 partially stripped, but with paper tape reader. > > Rainbow > > Vaxmate - parts. > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1638.monmouth.com Wed Aug 15 07:35:33 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1638.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:24 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at "Aug 15, 2001 01:02:18 am" Message-ID: <200108151235.f7FCZXS12380@bg-tc-ppp1638.monmouth.com> > > This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70, ex Nashua Telegraph. Nice. > > A large, and very difficult system to move. Among the interesting bits > that followed it home: > > a PDT-11 Which model 11/110 11/130 11/150 (my favorite) > 2 Vt-52`s Love that buzzer they use for the bell. > a VT-62 (What`s a VT-62? An advanced VT52 compatible terminal with multidrop DDCMP support so you could use them like smart block mode terminals with them being queried for info by address. I believe they also had reverse video support which may have been missing in the VT52. > PDP-8a Cool. > LSI-11 system? Still a great thing to play with. > PDP-8 partially stripped, but with paper tape reader. The tape reader's a great find. What model 8 8/E? > Rainbow One hell of a CP/M box. > Vaxmate - parts. Not the greatest box but a slick package. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 15 07:36:32 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: <20010815022026.E3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: Apparently it was about 3 days from being scrapped. On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > This weekend we rescued at DEC PDP-11/70 > > Congratulations! Oh wait; one less for me to snatch. Grrr! > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 15 07:39:16 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: 874256098 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Was that the 11/70 from USENET that had to be gone by today? Looks like a > nice haul. Yes, I believe it was. It had been listed on e-Bay but got no interest too, I believe M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Wed Aug 15 06:49:40 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84's - any interest? Message-ID: <20010815124054.621F736C71@pandora.worldonline.nl> Sergio Well, I had a BA23 box in which I put the CPU and the memory of the 11/84. And I had an RQDX3 disk interface and a Seagate ST-251 disk. The hard part is the cabinet kit. It should be possible to use parts of the 11/84 cabinet kit and make it fit with some soldering, but happily I could avoid that. The cabinet kit is for setting the serial line speed and to connect the serial line. Someone (Thanks again Wanderer!!) offered me an original 11/83 cabinet kit so that finished it. Wim ---------- > From: SP > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: PDP 11/84's - any interest? > Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 12:38 AM > > Hello. Could you be more explicit ? It's possible > I could obtain one (with CPU and Memory of the 84, > of course) but I'd like to knoe the form to convert > one 84 in one 83, of course. > > Regards > > Sergio > > > > > Jerome, > > > > I converted an 11/84 to an 11/83 myself. The memory works fine on a Q-bus. > > It is connected to the CPU board via overhead flatcable. I converted an > > 11/84 to an 11/83 myself. > > > > Wim > > > From Gary.Messick at itt.com Wed Aug 15 08:27:07 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B4C@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Didn't Fujitsu just (within the last week) exit the hard disk market? Or was it just desktop (IDE) drives? > -----Original Message----- > From: Master of all that Sucks [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:48 PM > To: Glenatacme@aol.com > Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) > > > > Well, it usually the large-capacity (4.5+ GB) older > workstation drives. > One good way to find out is to ask Fujitsu. It's the path I normally > take. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > > More information about this, please? If I find a Fujitsu > drive how can I > > tell if the lifetime warranty applies to that drive? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Glen > > 0/0 > > > From glindsey at ssinc.com Wed Aug 15 08:40:34 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: Message-ID: <006901c1258f$ee99ea60$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> Ugh, no kidding. My university's student paper recently (meaning, before I graduated) complained that the online registration process was too slow and difficult to use, and resulted in registration errors. Their suggested solution? Switch to a web-based registration system. Sure, that will speed up our horribly bogged-down and underpowered Suns -- make them serve HTML and run CGI Perl scripts. Likewise, a flashy Web mail gateway was just set up for use. Luckily, they still kept Pine on the servers for those of us who prefer power over prettiness. GSL, who is still wondering when they'll actually get around to cancelling his student account P.S. I'm afraid my current mailreader is OE under Win98, due to my work environment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "LUCAS J CASHDOLLAR" To: "Gene Buckle" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 7:37 PM Subject: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? > Hello All, > > My university used pine until about a year ago when they switched > to mulberry a graphical bloat-wear email program. It takes 20 times > longer to load, but its got grpahics and it likes to crash a hell of a > lot. All hail the bloat-wear nazis and their inefficiency at making our > lives easier. > > Luke From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 15 08:50:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B4C@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've always wanted a 2-sided-capable laser printer, preferably a Laserjet IIId or 4D, but, yesterday I ran onto a pretty thoroughly equipped LaserJet IID and couldn't resist. I find, however, that HP has no longer got the electronic versions of its user's manual, technical reference, or service manual on its web site. Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? thanx, Dick From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 08:50:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722562B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > > Who's with me? > > I think S/360-S/370 assembler would work quite well. It starts out > exceedingly simple, then moves to variable length opcodes, variable word > length, four-level indirection, etc. Doesn't require it to do useful > stuff though. But I am a bit biased towards mainframes. Yeah, that was my first... in fact, at quitting time, I sometimes think "time to BALR *,HOME" or something like that... -dq From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Aug 15 08:48:00 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) Message-ID: <3B7A7D90.719A4E68@olf.com> Hi, Does anyone have a spare ST506-based HD laying around unused. I am specifically looking for a 20MByte or 55Mbyte in size. Here is the models I am specifically looking for: NEC D3126 Olivetti HD352 But any would do. I am planning on reviving a TMB05 transputer disk controller (M212-based transputer tram motherboard with a ST506 disk drive interface). This is just one of the many missing pieces. The board is basically unsocketed, so it is missing a lot of chips, etc including the M212. I found a source for the M212, but still need a HD. Thanks, Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Aug 15 09:04:24 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: <507.627T2450T2886583optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 04:48:49AM +0100 References: <20010814143128.F5613806@uiuc.edu> <507.627T2450T2886583optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010815090424.C5736404@uiuc.edu> Iggy Drougge said: > Dan Wright skrev: > > >I've seen these flat connectors (though I don't actually have a cable), and I > >believe that they're physically the same a the connector HP uses for HP-HIL > >keyboards & mice, and those aren't so uncommon... So I guess you could try > >to dig up an HIL cable and solder a PS/2 connector onto the end :) > > Then again that would be shame since PS/2 cables are far more common than HIL > ones. Are they? I guess my perceptions are just warped by working at U of I... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Aug 15 09:11:38 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: What's your coolest ISA card?( was Re: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:28:28PM +0100 References: <20010814143323.G5613806@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20010815091138.D5736404@uiuc.edu> Tony Duell said: > > Speaking of GPIB/HPIB disks, does anyone have one they'd be willing to part > > with? I've got an HP 9000/300 (I don't remember which, but it has a 68030 > > Be careful. The HPIB interface standard does _not_ specify the command > set to be used by a disk drive. Both Commodore and HP made HPIB/GPIB > interfaced disks with totally different command sets. I think Tektronix > also made some, with yet another command set. Oy. That's good to know, thanks... > You need an HP disk drive. Something like a 9122 (dual 3.5" floppy) or > 9133 (3.5" floppy + 20M winchester IIRC). They're not that uncommon, but > they might be rather heavy to ship... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Aug 15 09:31:08 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Hi, > I've always wanted a 2-sided-capable laser printer, preferably a Laserjet IIId > or 4D, but, yesterday I ran onto a pretty thoroughly equipped LaserJet IID and > couldn't resist. I find, however, that HP has no longer got the electronic > versions of its user's manual, technical reference, or service manual on its web > site. > > Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? Oh - me too. I have a IID, IIID, and numerous LJ2 compat printers, and technical/service manual for the print engine would be nice :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 15 09:23:13 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? Message-ID: <20010815.093602.183.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:56:50 -0500 (CDT) "Jeffrey S. Sharp" writes: > Funny... I haven't seen very many people announcing their use of > Micro$oft Virus Transfer Utility Express > > I guess the magic eight-ball was right when it told me > "Outlook not so good" Hm, that's funny . . . mine says . . . LookOut!! ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From terryc at woa.com.au Wed Aug 15 09:33:16 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B4C@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B7A882C.C189923@woa.com.au> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? List posting please, if you do. I recently trashed a HP IIID and HP3si from external sources because I couldn't find anything on these. I have my old Gestetner Scout (postscript on cannon sx engine) that I would love to have maintenance doco for. It just needs a roller replacement, but I don't want to dismantle the whole lot to make this happen. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed Aug 15 09:41:15 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B7A8A0B.E838478B@greenbelt.com> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > And I would not consider people writing in assembly language to be at > > the bottom rungs > > Right! I've always wondered why so many of the other programmers I have > met have held assembly language in such low esteem. Depending on the > particular make/model of processor you're dealing with, it can be > downright elegant. > > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > Who's with me? > First language? No, I still think BASIC is best as a first language. And before I get yelled off the board, let me explain. Not all people are meant to program. BASIC is a perfect way to separate those that can program from those that cannot. I can't imagine someone not "getting" BASIC , yet being a natural born assmebly language or other language programmer. Now, for those that get BASIC and find it limited or boring, fine, move on to C, Java, assembly or whatever. Also, assembly language implies that you must first learn the computer architecture to some degree. High-lievel languages have no such prerequisite. Eric P.S. The bottom rung programmers develop in a pure Microsoft environment and usually write 4GL scripts. And they hate Unix. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 15 09:52:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722562B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > > > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > > > Who's with me? > > I think S/360-S/370 assembler would work quite well. It starts out > > exceedingly simple, then moves to variable length opcodes, variable word > > length, four-level indirection, etc. Doesn't require it to do useful > > stuff though. But I am a bit biased towards mainframes. > Yeah, that was my first... in fact, at quitting time, I sometimes > think "time to BALR *,HOME" or something like that... That's good. I like that 8-) Peace... Sridhar From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Wed Aug 15 10:08:47 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) Message-ID: "Messick, Gary" @classiccmp.org on 08/15/2001 08:27:07 AM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" cc: Subject: RE: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) Didn't Fujitsu just (within the last week) exit the hard disk market? Or was it just desktop (IDE) drives? > -----Original Message----- > From: Master of all that Sucks [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:48 PM > To: Glenatacme@aol.com > Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) > > > > Well, it usually the large-capacity (4.5+ GB) older > workstation drives. > One good way to find out is to ask Fujitsu. It's the path I normally > take. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > > More information about this, please? If I find a Fujitsu > drive how can I > > tell if the lifetime warranty applies to that drive? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Glen > > 0/0 > > > =========================================================================== Yup - The Register (A British IT mag) just had an article on it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/20799.html "Fujitsu bows out of desktop hard drive fight By Robert Blincoe Posted: 02/08/2001 at 14:37 GMT Fujitsu is ditching the desktop hard disk market to concentrate on the notebook and server sectors where it believes it can make more money. The company will quit making desktop hard drives later this year. Mike Chenery, VP of Fujitsu Computer Products of America, acknowledged things had been difficult because of low margins, the markets' slow growth, and because Fujitsu hadn't been one of the first players competing in the sector. Fujitsu's competitors are IBM, Maxtor, Seagate, Western Digital, and Samsung in the desktop drive market. Interestingly, back in May, Paul Griffin, IBM's EMEA VP for its Technology Group, predicted it would be Samsung and Western Digital which would bow out of the sector first. He felt Fujitsu had deep enough pockets and technology ownership to last out the margin fight. Fujitsu had lost market share in the first half of 2001, and was in fifth place with to nine per cent. ? " From glindsey at ssinc.com Wed Aug 15 10:26:14 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3B7A8A0B.E838478B@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c1259e$b12c1040$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "Eric Chomko" wrote: > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > (...) > > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > > be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > > Who's with me? > > > > First language? No, I still think BASIC is best as a first language. And > before > I get yelled off the board, let me explain. Not all people are meant to > program. > BASIC is a perfect way to separate those that can program from those that > cannot. I can't imagine someone not "getting" BASIC , yet being a natural > born assmebly language or other language programmer. > > Now, for those that get BASIC and find it limited or boring, fine, move on > to > C, Java, assembly or whatever. > > Also, assembly language implies that you must first learn the computer > architecture to some degree. High-lievel languages have no such > prerequisite. > I'd tend to agree, in general. However, I think something like MIPS assembly (such as that taught in CS courses at UIUC) might work well as a "learners" language, and doesn't require knowing TOO much of the hardware (aside from the registers / memory distinction, which could be taught using a "file cabinet / cubbyholes" analogy). What about LOGO? I know it was touted as the next big beginner's language in the late '80s, but never really took off... But, yeah, I'd say BASIC is still a pretty good language to see if someone can "get" programming -- provided that someone moves to a structured language quickly if he or she wishes, instead of getting into bad programming habits (as I did for a while). GSL, who remembers writing a LOGO simulator for GWBasic so he could use programs in books From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 15 11:16:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > >> LOL. You pessimist 8-) > > >Naw, more of a realist ;) > > Exactly. You should see the rig. > I adore Hans' childlike sense of adventure, but this time I am seriously > concerned :) Not to worry. If he's willing to take it slowly, he shouldn't have any problem. Remember the <1960 VW bus? Those made it over the rockies. Several times, I drove US40 (which became I70 in the east and I80 west of Salt Lake). The VW bus had 36hp (probably less than Hans' vehicle), and much more body weight (unless he has badly overdone the collecting). 'Course the last time that I drove it, it was with a 1960 bus with 1600cc engine (type 3 converted); it burned a valve in Colorado, and blew oil cooler seal in Nevada. To reduce the mountain driving on the way back, he could go back by way of US66 (or whatever it's called now) That'll get him as far as St. Louis with very little mountains; there he can pick up US40 (I70) to take him back to Baltimore. (Actually, I70 diverts down towards Washington, but US40 went straight through Baltimore.) In the old days (60s and 70s), when most of the city was condemned, US40 in Baltimore was lined with demolition fences made of all of the doors of the buildings being torn down, with periodic marble doorsteps sticking out. Historical? trivia: Coming into Baltimore from the south (on the parkway, long after passing GSFC and NSA), just as you reached Baltimore, there was a big clock tower. What did that clock have instead of numbers? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 15 11:15:13 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable References: <20010814143128.F5613806@uiuc.edu> <507.627T2450T2886583optimus@canit.se> <20010815090424.C5736404@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <3B7AA011.4E7336C5@internet1.net> Can't you just go to Goodwill and pick up a whole keyboard, and use the cable from it? I see IBM Model M's quite often at Goodwill. They are always the PS/2 style. I've only found one that had an AT cable so far. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From bill at cs.scranton.edu Wed Aug 15 11:27:58 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Wanted : 8" boot disk for TRS80 Model II In-Reply-To: <002301c124f9$fa1ac6c0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Claude.W wrote: > I have fanilly gotten around to checking this model II/expansion box that > was saved from garbage truck. > > Very clean, no crt burn and a missing keyboard problem that was solved by > Hans Franke sending one he had all the way from Germany! > > Id like to show this thing off a bit more then just turning it on and seeing > ask for a disk....I dont think Ill be able to boot this from 5.25" 1.2M > drives connected to this... > > The unit came with a single 8" diskette that does not boot (written > "accounts receivable"). I dont know if its the floppy drive that is bad or > its not a bootable diskette or....internal 8" floppy drive looks "alive" > anyways... > > So I am asking if anyone as a easy way of making an 8" boot disk in this > situation or would be nice enough to provide me with one. > > Id like to get at least one. Better would be one of each OS this thing ran > and a few softs. > > I have a fairly large "for trade/giveaway" list of witch you could pick > something to thank you for the troubles... > > Thanks > Claude > http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector Well, I'm hurt. :-) You should have come to me first. I have a Model 16 (two actually, but one is jsut for parts.) I have TRSDOS, TRSDOS-II, TRSDOS-16 (which you can't run) and both the Z80 and 68K versions of UCSDPascal. Come to think of it, I also have Pickles & Trout CPM around here somewhere. Oh wait, I also have Xenix for the Model-16. What a collection. So, you want a couple of Model-16's with all the stuff that goes with them?? One of these days the list will get big enough for you to make the trip down here to pick this stuff up. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 15 11:36:06 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <3B7A08BF.82551341@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I remember having a hard time bringing the computer up one time. I > think all I did was push down on the memory chips to get it reliable > again. Since this much time has passed, it might be a good idea to pull > the socketed ram chips and clean them. I have heard of some Apple // > guys using some sort of cleaner on chips.... I think it was something > like TarnX, or something found at the grocery store. Maybe Tony could > recommend something, too. Before even cleaning chips (the sockets in the PC are not quite as bad as the ones that Apple used), start by removing the Six pack, disk controller, and everything else from the bus except the video card. If that doesn't help, then remove the three rows of socketed memory chips, so that the only memory is the soldered in row. If it is working, then you will get a beep pattern complaining ab out memory, since the current quantity doesn't match what the switches are set for. But THAT would be a definite improvement! If necessary, you could even remove the BASIC ROMs, leaving only the BIOS ROM. How are the voltages from the power supply? WHICH kind of video card is in it? CGA? MDA? Is the monitor the right one for the card? Depending on your level of expertise (sorry if I/we have assumed incorrectly), try a P.O.S.T. card (or manually with a probe), to see if it got that far. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 11:36:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225632@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I'd tend to agree, in general. However, I think something like MIPS > assembly (such as that taught in CS courses at UIUC) might work well as a > "learners" language, and doesn't require knowing TOO much of the hardware > (aside from the registers / memory distinction, which could be taught using > a "file cabinet / cubbyholes" analogy). Was the MIPS a true 3-address machine (or do I mean 3-operand?)? Or am I thinking of the NS32000 family? > But, yeah, I'd say BASIC is still a pretty good language to see if someone > can "get" programming -- provided that someone moves to a structured > language quickly if he or she wishes, instead of getting into bad > programming habits (as I did for a while). I grudgingly agree. Niklaus Wirth thought that BASIC hopelessly polluted a mind from every being a good programmer. I, too, think that's harsh, probably because I also started with (a superset of) BASIC, and wrote journal articles for two years for The Cobb Group's Inside Microsoft BASIC and Inside Quickbasic. And every time I think I've finally put it behind me, it creeps back into my life. Most recently, TOPS-10 BASIC running on a simulated DECSYSTEM-2020 (KS-10) (fixing MONPLY.BAS). -dq From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 15 11:50:10 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . Message-ID: <20010815.115010.350.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:16:13 -0700 (PDT) "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" writes: > Historical? trivia: Coming into Baltimore from the south (on the > parkway, > long after passing GSFC and NSA), just as you reached Baltimore, > there was > a big clock tower. What did that clock have instead of numbers? O R M B O S R E E L Z T I love Baltimore. It's my favourite city. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/354dcc23/attachment.html From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Aug 15 11:56:04 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: <3B7AA011.4E7336C5@internet1.net> Message-ID: Hi, > Can't you just go to Goodwill and pick up a whole keyboard, and use the > cable from it? I see IBM Model M's quite often at Goodwill. They are > always the PS/2 style. I've only found one that had an AT cable so far. If I were one of you american types perhaps ;&) /me is a brit through and through :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 15 12:11:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Not to worry. If he's willing to take it slowly, he shouldn't have any > problem. Remember the <1960 VW bus? Those made it over the rockies. > Several times, I drove US40 (which became I70 in the east and I80 west of > Salt Lake). The VW bus had 36hp (probably less than Hans' vehicle), and > much more body weight (unless he has badly overdone the collecting). > 'Course the last time that I drove it, it was with a 1960 bus with 1600cc > engine (type 3 converted); it burned a valve in Colorado, and blew oil > cooler seal in Nevada. There might be some luck involved somewhere in there 8-). > To reduce the mountain driving on the way back, he could go back by way of > US66 (or whatever it's called now) That'll get him as far as St. Louis > with very little mountains; there he can pick up US40 (I70) to take him > back to Baltimore. (Actually, I70 diverts down towards Washington, but > US40 went straight through Baltimore.) In the old days (60s and 70s), > when most of the city was condemned, US40 in Baltimore was lined with > demolition fences made of all of the doors of the buildings being torn > down, with periodic marble doorsteps sticking out. Actually, I-70 does indeed come into Baltimore. I-270 is the one that splits off outside of Frederick, and comes to Washington (actually I think it's Great Falls, VA). US 66 is now I-40. > Historical? trivia: Coming into Baltimore from the south (on the parkway, > long after passing GSFC and NSA), just as you reached Baltimore, there was > a big clock tower. What did that clock have instead of numbers? Oooh. I know the place you are talking about, but I don't think I am old enough to answer the question. Peace... Sridhar > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From glindsey at ssinc.com Wed Aug 15 12:19:54 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225632@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <00e201c125ae$92558560$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "Douglas Quebbeman" wrote: > > I'd tend to agree, in general. However, I think something like MIPS > > assembly (such as that taught in CS courses at UIUC) might work well as a > > "learners" language, and doesn't require knowing TOO much of the hardware > > (aside from the registers / memory distinction, which could be taught using > > a "file cabinet / cubbyholes" analogy). > > Was the MIPS a true 3-address machine (or do I mean 3-operand?)? Or > am I thinking of the NS32000 family? Yes, I'm almost positive it was a three-operand machine -- I still remember long nights writing "add $r5, $r3, $r12" and the like. I don't know if what we did was totally real, or more stylized -- all of our machine problems ran through a simulator. But it was elegant: our implementation had a fixed 32-bit instruction size, thirty-one static 16-bit general purpose registers (as $r0 was hard-coded to zero), some 32-bit floating point registers (don't recall how many), plus stack and instruction pointers. Memory was 16-bit addressable flat space... beyond that I'd have to pull out my old textbooks, unless I sold them (which I think was the case). > > But, yeah, I'd say BASIC is still a pretty good language to see if someone > > can "get" programming -- provided that someone moves to a structured > > language quickly if he or she wishes, instead of getting into bad > > programming habits (as I did for a while). > > I grudgingly agree. > > Niklaus Wirth thought that BASIC hopelessly polluted a mind from > every being a good programmer. I, too, think that's harsh, probably > because I also started with (a superset of) BASIC, and wrote journal > articles for two years for The Cobb Group's Inside Microsoft BASIC > and Inside Quickbasic. And every time I think I've finally put it > behind me, it creeps back into my life. Most recently, TOPS-10 BASIC > running on a simulated DECSYSTEM-2020 (KS-10) (fixing MONPLY.BAS). I adopted Quickbasic pretty easily, so learning structured programming wasn't too bad; however, QB made me lazy in terms of things like syntax checking (since it was on-the-fly) and variable declaration. It took me a while before I could program in C without getting hopelessly frustrated. (Remembering semicolons alone was enough to drive me nuts...) But BASIC holds many fond memories for me, between learning it on Commodore PETs, Apple II's, and GWBasic on my old 1186... and as far as getting people to understand variables, conditional statements, loops and the like, it's still very useful. GSL, who now remembers that that LOGO simulator was written in QBX, not GWBasic... From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 13:08:07 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: You have a Laserjet IID (33447A)printer, right? Is it a duplexer problem, paper pickup, etc problem? I don't have the normal manual but I have the consolidated one for all of the "classic" laserjets, except the IIIsi/4Si (they still print that, consolidated into one). I work HP printers all the time and much of the info is burned into my NVRAM on top of my shoulders, although sometimes the system clock is off a little and it takes a few minutes to extract the info (grin) The IID and IIID printers are big but run cheaply and easily. Here's what HP shows for the still avilable service manual (includes shipping): p/n 33459-90906...$83.00...33447A/33459A LaserJet IID/IIID Combined Service Manual Since I'm an HP ASP I can get a discount and could get it for you for $75 rather than $83, even have it shipped from HP direct to you (or anyone else in the US)-agian that is for the printed/bound manual and shipping. There is no electronic version in existance that I know of and I too would love to have it if there was/were. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:51 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: ancient laserjets -> -> -> I've always wanted a 2-sided-capable laser printer, preferably a -> Laserjet IIId -> or 4D, but, yesterday I ran onto a pretty thoroughly equipped -> LaserJet IID and -> couldn't resist. I find, however, that HP has no longer got the -> electronic -> versions of its user's manual, technical reference, or service -> manual on its web -> site. -> -> Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? -> -> thanx, -> -> Dick -> -> -> From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 13:32:56 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Question Message-ID: OK, How the hell do you tell if the thing is negative or positive bus? I need to know this before I go and buy some peripherals... Thanks, Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 13:34:14 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7A882C.C189923@woa.com.au> Message-ID: Although it may be way more than anyone wants to spend, HP has these manuals still available and I can get the manuals at a knock-off: 33459-90906...$83.00...33447A/33459A LaserJet IID/IIID Combined Service Manual ($75 from me) C2010-90939...$72.00...33491A/C2010A LaserJet IIISi/4Si Combined Service Manual ($65 from me) 33449-90906...$84.03...33440A/33449A LaserJet II/III Combined Service Manual ($75 from me) 33481-90951...$103.00...33471A/33481A LaserJet IIP/IIIP Combined Service Manual ($89 from me) All of these come from the same place, I just get to resell them with my discount for less. They are new printed copies and as far as I know there are no electronic versions available. You pay me, I have HP ship to you (US only as far as I know on these). The shipping is included in the pricing. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Terry Collins -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 9:33 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: ancient laserjets -> -> -> Richard Erlacher wrote: -> -> > Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? -> -> List posting please, if you do. -> -> I recently trashed a HP IIID and HP3si from external sources because I -> couldn't find anything on these. I have my old Gestetner Scout -> (postscript on cannon sx engine) that I would love to have maintenance -> doco for. It just needs a roller replacement, but I don't want to -> dismantle the whole lot to make this happen. -> -> -- -> Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 -> email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au -> WOA Computer Services -> -> "People without trees are like fish without clean water" -> From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:42:02 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B7AC27A.F3113072@tinyworld.co.uk> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > Right! I've always wondered why so many of the other programmers I > have met have held assembly language in such low esteem. Depending > on the particular make/model of processor you're dealing with, it > can be downright elegant. Horses for courses. The "low esteem" would probably be reserved for the few nutters who would like to construct large systems solely in assembly language, and then find that no one else can maintain them. However, as I work in the embedded real-time world, I mostly construct systems that are a hybrid of assembly and a high-level language. > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages > would be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how > to program. Who's with me? Strangely enough, the curriculum setters for "O" level Computer Studies back in the early 1980s. Before we moved onto BASIC, we were taught CESIL (Computer Education in Schools Instructional Language), which had statements like "JIZERO label" instead of "while" or "for"! Unfortunately our particular interpreter missed one of the advantages of assembly language -- it was written in BASIC and crawled along on our RML 380Z. If the monitor program of the 380Z had disassembled instructions, it would have been a much better tool and we all could have learned Z80. (That got relegated to my lunchtimes). From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 13:40:49 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) In-Reply-To: <3B7A7D90.719A4E68@olf.com> Message-ID: Oh now you post this, a week late. I just installed a brand new (well unused) NEC drive in a machine that I shipped. I'll check on Thursday in my storage building, may be able to dig up an Nec, Seagate or Miniscribe for you in good working order from one of the Zenith 286's that I'm either going to sell whole or dismanatle and sell item by item. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ram -> Meenakshisundaram -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:48 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) -> -> -> Hi, -> -> Does anyone have a spare ST506-based HD laying around unused. -> I am specifically looking for a 20MByte or 55Mbyte in size. Here is the -> -> models I am specifically looking for: -> -> NEC D3126 -> Olivetti HD352 -> -> But any would do. I am planning on reviving a TMB05 transputer disk -> controller (M212-based transputer tram motherboard with a ST506 -> disk drive interface). This is just one of the many missing pieces. -> The -> board is basically unsocketed, so it is missing a lot of chips, etc -> including -> the M212. I found a source for the M212, but still need a HD. -> -> Thanks, -> -> Ram -> -> -- -> -> ,,,, -> /'^'\ -> ( o o ) -> -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- -> | Ram Meenakshisundaram | -> | Senior Software Engineer | -> | OpenLink Financial Inc | -> | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | -> | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | -> ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- -> \_) ) / -> (_/ -> -> -> -> From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 15 13:48:15 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >IBM uses a dilute phosphoric acid solution, as does HP. > > Good old Navel Jelly, orthophosphoric acid, seems to be at the heart of a > LOT of products. Nasty stuff if you get it on the wrong thing, but in > general it works great on corrosion. Quite right and that may be part of the reason they did NOT name it Navel Jelly - it ain't for belly buttons! Try Naval... - don > Personally I still have RED and Blue cans of Cramolin, and a few other > contact specific cleaners and restorers. > > > From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed Aug 15 14:19:35 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . References: <20010815.115010.350.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B7ACB47.A58CE873@greenbelt.com> Jeff L Kaneko wrote: > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:16:13 -0700 (PDT) "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > writes: > > Historical? trivia: Coming into Baltimore from the south (on the > > parkway, > > long after passing GSFC and NSA), just as you reached Baltimore, > > there was > > a big clock tower. What did that clock have instead of > numbers? O R > M B O S > R E E L > Z T I love Baltimore. It's my favourite city. > Yes, yes, you can see the Bromo Seltzer tower from Camden Yards as well. But what year was it built? Eric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/f8086429/attachment.html From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Aug 15 14:27:39 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Desperately looking for an X11 server for Inmos G300-based boards References: <3B729C26.6097EE4D@olf.com> Message-ID: <3B7ACD2B.69EF7CB9@olf.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for X11R5 source code for the IMSB020 (aka "Bozo") > graphics motherboard (contains a IMSG330) OR any other transputer-based > X11 source code. Either that, or at least an implementation of an X11 > server > for the IMSG3xx chipset. I have the source code to the Helios OS for > the transputer, > but not the source to their X11R4 implementation. So, I want to port > the X11R6.6 > code over, but I also want an XServer as well. I believe John Honniball > said he had it, > but he never responds to me emails :-( > Good news, It turms out the Personal Decstation uses an IMSG332 chipset for its video. Also, there seems to be a "unsupported" port of the IMSG364 for the Acorn machines as well at NetBSD. I am going to go and study that code and see if I can create a Xserver using that for Helios. Thanks for all the help... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 14:38:10 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now he tells me that you don't use it for belly-buttons...wondered why it tingled! -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Don Maslin -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 1:48 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Dead PC -> -> -> -> -> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: -> -> > >IBM uses a dilute phosphoric acid solution, as does HP. -> > -> > Good old Navel Jelly, orthophosphoric acid, seems to be at the -> heart of a -> > LOT of products. Nasty stuff if you get it on the wrong thing, but in -> > general it works great on corrosion. -> -> Quite right and that may be part of the reason they did NOT name it -> Navel Jelly - it ain't for belly buttons! Try Naval... -> -> - don -> -> > Personally I still have RED and Blue cans of Cramolin, and a few other -> > contact specific cleaners and restorers. -> > -> > -> > -> -> From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 15 14:47:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: Message-ID: <000b01c125c3$375d5b00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's no problem, aside from the need for a bit of cleaning. particularly of the pickup rollers. I just want to gather up the documentation before it all disappears. There are things that this printer will do that my others, being simpler, won't do. One, I hope, is print on both sides of the paper without my intervention. This will save a lot of hassle whenever someone asks me for a printed copy of something. The printer in question has two trays, some sort of assembly on the back that's absent from my other II's and III's and it has a couple of font cartridges, the value of which is a mystery to me, since the printer fonts are downloadable anyway, I hope. I haven't used a II in about a decade, since I've had III's for over a decade and recently got a few more (I couldn't pass 'em up at $4 each, since they had fairly full toner cartridges. One of 'em even had a memory board just like the one I bought for over $100 a decade or so ago.) I'm interested in things like the available options, RAM expansion connector pinout, etc. This printer has 2.5 MB of RAM, but my other II has only the half MB that comes standard with 'em. I have TONS of DRAMs and, since the printer just sends addresses and data (at least in the case of the III) to the memory board, I figure I can either buy one for a few bucks or build one myself. Over the years I've trimmed memory arrays off boards that were going into the trash, so I have arrays of various physical sizes, ranging from 256Kx8 to 256Mx32. It's possible that one or another of those will save me a lot of wiring. I also have a JetLan board in an LJ3 that I might consider moving to the IID if it will work there and use the thing as a standalone server as the III has been. With its duplexing capabilities that would be useful, though I'm not convinced the LJ-IID can use the JETLAN board. If not, I'll just attach it to the Netware server. Thanks for the info. I'll save your email address so I can contact you off-list if I have a problem I can't figure out. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:08 PM Subject: RE: ancient laserjets > You have a Laserjet IID (33447A)printer, right? > > Is it a duplexer problem, paper pickup, etc problem? I don't have the normal > manual but I have the consolidated one for all of the "classic" laserjets, > except the IIIsi/4Si (they still print that, consolidated into one). I work > HP printers all the time and much of the info is burned into my NVRAM on top > of my shoulders, although sometimes the system clock is off a little and it > takes a few minutes to extract the info (grin) > > The IID and IIID printers are big but run cheaply and easily. > Here's what HP shows for the still avilable service manual (includes > shipping): > > p/n 33459-90906...$83.00...33447A/33459A LaserJet IID/IIID Combined Service > Manual > > Since I'm an HP ASP I can get a discount and could get it for you for $75 > rather than $83, even have it shipped from HP direct to you (or anyone else > in the US)-agian that is for the printed/bound manual and shipping. There is > no electronic version in existance that I know of and I too would love to > have it if there was/were. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:51 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: ancient laserjets > -> > -> > -> I've always wanted a 2-sided-capable laser printer, preferably a > -> Laserjet IIId > -> or 4D, but, yesterday I ran onto a pretty thoroughly equipped > -> LaserJet IID and > -> couldn't resist. I find, however, that HP has no longer got the > -> electronic > -> versions of its user's manual, technical reference, or service > -> manual on its web > -> site. > -> > -> Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? > -> > -> thanx, > -> > -> Dick > -> > -> > -> > > From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Aug 15 14:45:13 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) References: Message-ID: <3B7AD149.452C0BFB@olf.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Oh now you post this, a week late. I just installed a brand new (well > unused) NEC drive in a machine that I shipped. I'll check on Thursday in my > storage building, may be able to dig up an Nec, Seagate or Miniscribe for > you in good working order from one of the Zenith 286's that I'm either going > to sell whole or dismanatle and sell item by item. Darn I missed out. Please keep me posted. I can only use 20 or 55Mbyte disks in this interface unfortunately... Thanks. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 15 14:52:43 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225628@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010815145037.Q6130-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Where on earth are LARTs illegal?!? And how did this come to pass?!? At the time of writing, I was thinking of a thermonuclear LART... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Aug 15 15:17:13 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: Message-ID: <3B7AD8C8.2AE3CE29@eoni.com> FWIW, The HP Laserjet II and the Apple Personal Laserwriter NT use the same print engine (Canon). The Apple manuals are available on Gamba's site at: Jim From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 15 15:36:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225638@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Where on earth are LARTs illegal?!? And how did this come to pass?!? > > At the time of writing, I was thinking of a thermonuclear LART... Fussion tends to eradicate the memory of the pain, so I stick with bamboo LARTs... when not in LART mode, it's backscratcher, so no one realizes the potential.... -dq From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 15 15:48:43 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3B7AC27A.F3113072@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Paul Williams wrote: > Horses for courses. The "low esteem" would probably be reserved for the > few nutters who would like to construct large systems solely in assembly > language, and then find that no one else can maintain them. However, as > I work in the embedded real-time world, I mostly construct systems that > are a hybrid of assembly and a high-level language. I work in nonsequential (massively concurrent) robotics, and we write our movement routines in assembler (basically the lowest level... servo commands), and then do all the logic in Smalltalk, and all the interface in VB (!). > > I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages > > would be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how > > to program. Who's with me? > > Strangely enough, the curriculum setters for "O" level Computer Studies > back in the early 1980s. Before we moved onto BASIC, we were taught > CESIL (Computer Education in Schools Instructional Language), which had > statements like "JIZERO label" instead of "while" or "for"! > Unfortunately our particular interpreter missed one of the advantages of > assembly language -- it was written in BASIC and crawled along on our > RML 380Z. If the monitor program of the 380Z had disassembled > instructions, it would have been a much better tool and we all could > have learned Z80. (That got relegated to my lunchtimes). At the school I attended, we started with C, and *quickly* switched to Modula-2. I have absolutely no clue why we didn't start with Modula-2. It's a robust and beautiful language. Peace... Sridhar From bills at adrenaline.com Wed Aug 15 16:01:19 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225638@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > > Where on earth are LARTs illegal?!? And how did this come to pass?!? > > > > At the time of writing, I was thinking of a thermonuclear LART... > > Fussion tends to eradicate the memory of the pain, so I stick > with bamboo LARTs... when not in LART mode, it's backscratcher, > so no one realizes the potential.... I always thought that a LART should have "LOUISVILLE SLUGGER" branded on it (and that the LART should always be oriented with the brand on top during application to avoid damage to the LART). From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Aug 15 16:21:38 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Fujitsu drives (was Re: Service does still exist....) In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD702A23B4C@acdfwx3.acdin.de. ittind.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010815142049.02cf31e0@mail.zipcon.net> They left the desktop market (IDE, some scsi) and are retaining the "Enterprise" market 'At 08:27 AM 8/15/01 -0500, you wrote: >Didn't Fujitsu just (within the last week) exit the hard disk market? Or >was it just desktop (IDE) drives? From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Aug 15 16:24:50 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Wanted : 8" boot disk for TRS80 Model II In-Reply-To: References: <002301c124f9$fa1ac6c0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010815142434.02cf7d10@mail.zipcon.net> My First 'Nix box was a 16..... :) At 12:27 PM 8/15/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Claude.W wrote: > > > I have fanilly gotten around to checking this model II/expansion box that > > was saved from garbage truck. > > > > Very clean, no crt burn and a missing keyboard problem that was solved by > > Hans Franke sending one he had all the way from Germany! > > > > Id like to show this thing off a bit more then just turning it on and > seeing > > ask for a disk....I dont think Ill be able to boot this from 5.25" 1.2M > > drives connected to this... > > > > The unit came with a single 8" diskette that does not boot (written > > "accounts receivable"). I dont know if its the floppy drive that is bad or > > its not a bootable diskette or....internal 8" floppy drive looks "alive" > > anyways... > > > > So I am asking if anyone as a easy way of making an 8" boot disk in this > > situation or would be nice enough to provide me with one. > > > > Id like to get at least one. Better would be one of each OS this thing ran > > and a few softs. > > > > I have a fairly large "for trade/giveaway" list of witch you could pick > > something to thank you for the troubles... > > > > Thanks > > Claude > > http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector > >Well, I'm hurt. :-) > >You should have come to me first. I have a Model 16 (two actually, but >one is jsut for parts.) I have TRSDOS, TRSDOS-II, TRSDOS-16 (which you >can't run) and both the Z80 and 68K versions of UCSDPascal. Come to >think of it, I also have Pickles & Trout CPM around here somewhere. >Oh wait, I also have Xenix for the Model-16. What a collection. > >So, you want a couple of Model-16's with all the stuff that goes with them?? >One of these days the list will get big enough for you to make the trip >down here to pick this stuff up. :-) > >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 08:51:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <464.627T200T8914161optimus@canit.se> Master of all that Sucks skrev: Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. >Indeed. I would pay double just to see someone pulling their hair out >trying to run that at any speed 8-) I'd also like to see the the serial interface. How do you hook a terminal to a cardboard computer? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it! For the full details, check out . From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 08:55:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:25 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <483.627T200T8954237optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would >be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. >Who's with me? Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Your hamster might, despite some encouraging first steps, never be able to fully grasp the concept of Logical Markup. -- The Not So Short Introduction to LaTex2e, "Disadvantages of LaTex" From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 08:59:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010814234512.A3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <1048.627T100T8993325optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >On 14 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> A demo is a demonstration, showing off your programming/gfx/music >> talent. The demo crews arrange demo parties where they display their >> demos and win prices. It's all about pushing the limits of what's >> possible on a computer. >Somehow I doubt that part of making one of these demos is seeing how many >bytes you can optimize out of an assembly language loop, or seeing how >quick you can make that shiny new script parser parse. No, I think I >would get laughed at... Don't be silly, Jeff. If you're ever going to fare wlel in the compos, you'll have to code as efficiently as possible. Considering that there are genres such as 4 k, 40 k and 64 k intros, you can't be anything but an optimiser wizard. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 09:01:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <970.627T1150T9015087optimus@canit.se> Rob Lion skrev: >My understanding is that, at one point at least, it was indeed about >optimizing assembly loops, especially on Commodores and machines of that >era... I've even read about people using disk controllers as coprocessors >and disabling video interrupts and all kinds of crazy things. I think the >"scene" has pretty much died down in the US, and most of the current stuff >comes out of (Eastern?) Europe. There are some interesting websites out >there (which I can't remember at the moment) with downloads of stuff that >claims to make full use of Pentium IIIs, even, but most of it seems to use >junk like DirectX. I saw some PC demos last week, or closer to the truth, I didn't. They wouldn't run on the poor, oh-so-slow 300 MHz machines we tried them on. And they all seemed to make good use of Microsoft Activesomethingorother routines. Even the scene isn't what it used to be. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer hackers do it all night long. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 09:15:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225627@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <1509.627T400T9154445optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> >> >Seriously, what's a demo programmer? A programmer who writes >> >only demo software? As in mock-ups? Prototypes? >> >> A demo is a demonstration, showing off your programming/gfx/music talent. >> The demo crews arrange demo parties where they display their demos and win >> prices. It's all about pushing the limits of what's possible on a computer. >> Still, I doubt that Doug would like demo programmers. They're usually all >> quick'n'dirty, not a trace of the kind of academic programming practices >which >> Doug seems to prefer. >What I don't like is dog-and-pony shows, too much sturm und drang. It's all about sturm und drang. >I *have* developed prototypes, and told the boss to keep the client >as far away from seeing it as humanly possible. Let the marketing >people suck the money out of the vulture capitalists, no felching for me. >Maybe you're talking about programming contests? If so, you're right, >I never liked them; and like multiple-choice tests, which basically >test your ability to take tests, programming contests basically >demonstrate your ability to demonstrate and to participate in contests, >neither of which interest me. Programming contests are another deal. They're just about academic programming. Demos are more like MTV on a computer screen. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Aug 15 16:06:49 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing (Was: RE: PeeCee turns 20) [longish] In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225638@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Hi, > > > Where on earth are LARTs illegal?!? And how did this come to pass?!? > > > > At the time of writing, I was thinking of a thermonuclear LART... > > Fussion tends to eradicate the memory of the pain, so I stick > with bamboo LARTs... when not in LART mode, it's backscratcher, > so no one realizes the potential.... I just have the traditional 2x4 propped up in the corner of the room :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 15 17:49:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <464.627T200T8914161optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: I do that sometimes. Sometimes it's less efficient. Peace... Sridhar On 15 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Master of all that Sucks skrev: > > Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > >Indeed. I would pay double just to see someone pulling their hair out > >trying to run that at any speed 8-) > > I'd also like to see the the serial interface. How do you hook a terminal to a > cardboard computer? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it! > For the full details, check out . > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 17:51:14 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7AD8C8.2AE3CE29@eoni.com> Message-ID: Until you need a parts list, specific error message translations, or external assemblies info. The internals are the same theory but have differences. I've used the Apple manuals (I have nearly all the old and new Apple/Mac manuals in electronic form and soon to have Apple Service Authorization)and it helped but I had to search high and low for numbered error message info. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Arnott -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 3:17 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: ancient laserjets -> -> -> FWIW, The HP Laserjet II and the Apple Personal Laserwriter NT use the -> same print engine (Canon). The Apple manuals are available on Gamba's -> site at: -> -> Jim -> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 17:59:30 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <000b01c125c3$375d5b00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: You can try cleaning the pickup rollers and registry roller with a clean cloth and iso alcohol - don't use platen cleaner or MEK, they will fall apart. As far as the duplex function, it comes in very handy (I have a Lexmark LX+ w/netcard, duplexer, second tray, envelope feeder, etc) and I use it all the time as most of my hard print manuals were PDF form when I got them and I've printed them without problems. You should be able to select duplex on/off in the printer driver and on the control panel. If you select duplex on with the panel it will be on all of the time, where using the duplex in the print driver can be used temp or permanently. Don't vacuum the excess dust and toner with a household vac- you'll fry the vac with the metallics in the toner and subject the printer to static. If anything use a dry clean cloth to get as much up as possible and then canned air for the rest but don't blow it into the fuser area. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 2:47 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: ancient laserjets -> -> -> There's no problem, aside from the need for a bit of cleaning. -> particularly of -> the pickup rollers. I just want to gather up the documentation -> before it all -> disappears. There are things that this printer will do that my -> others, being -> simpler, won't do. One, I hope, is print on both sides of the -> paper without my -> intervention. This will save a lot of hassle whenever someone -> asks me for a -> printed copy of something. -> -> The printer in question has two trays, some sort of assembly on -> the back that's -> absent from my other II's and III's and it has a couple of font -> cartridges, the -> value of which is a mystery to me, since the printer fonts are -> downloadable -> anyway, I hope. -> -> I haven't used a II in about a decade, since I've had III's for -> over a decade -> and recently got a few more (I couldn't pass 'em up at $4 each, -> since they had -> fairly full toner cartridges. One of 'em even had a memory -> board just like the -> one I bought for over $100 a decade or so ago.) -> -> I'm interested in things like the available options, RAM -> expansion connector -> pinout, etc. This printer has 2.5 MB of RAM, but my other II -> has only the half -> MB that comes standard with 'em. I have TONS of DRAMs and, -> since the printer -> just sends addresses and data (at least in the case of the III) -> to the memory -> board, I figure I can either buy one for a few bucks or build -> one myself. Over -> the years I've trimmed memory arrays off boards that were going -> into the trash, -> so I have arrays of various physical sizes, ranging from 256Kx8 -> to 256Mx32. -> It's possible that one or another of those will save me a lot of wiring. -> -> I also have a JetLan board in an LJ3 that I might consider -> moving to the IID if -> it will work there and use the thing as a standalone server as -> the III has been. -> With its duplexing capabilities that would be useful, though I'm -> not convinced -> the LJ-IID can use the JETLAN board. If not, I'll just attach -> it to the Netware -> server. -> -> Thanks for the info. I'll save your email address so I can -> contact you off-list -> if I have a problem I can't figure out. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Russ Blakeman" -> To: -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:08 PM -> Subject: RE: ancient laserjets -> -> -> > You have a Laserjet IID (33447A)printer, right? -> > -> > Is it a duplexer problem, paper pickup, etc problem? I don't -> have the normal -> > manual but I have the consolidated one for all of the -> "classic" laserjets, -> > except the IIIsi/4Si (they still print that, consolidated into -> one). I work -> > HP printers all the time and much of the info is burned into -> my NVRAM on top -> > of my shoulders, although sometimes the system clock is off a -> little and it -> > takes a few minutes to extract the info (grin) -> > -> > The IID and IIID printers are big but run cheaply and easily. -> > Here's what HP shows for the still avilable service manual (includes -> > shipping): -> > -> > p/n 33459-90906...$83.00...33447A/33459A LaserJet IID/IIID -> Combined Service -> > Manual -> > -> > Since I'm an HP ASP I can get a discount and could get it for -> you for $75 -> > rather than $83, even have it shipped from HP direct to you -> (or anyone else -> > in the US)-agian that is for the printed/bound manual and -> shipping. There is -> > no electronic version in existance that I know of and I too -> would love to -> > have it if there was/were. -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> Richard Erlacher -> > -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:51 AM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: ancient laserjets -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> I've always wanted a 2-sided-capable laser printer, preferably a -> > -> Laserjet IIId -> > -> or 4D, but, yesterday I ran onto a pretty thoroughly equipped -> > -> LaserJet IID and -> > -> couldn't resist. I find, however, that HP has no longer got the -> > -> electronic -> > -> versions of its user's manual, technical reference, or service -> > -> manual on its web -> > -> site. -> > -> -> > -> Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? -> > -> -> > -> thanx, -> > -> -> > -> Dick -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> > -> -> From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 15 17:36:08 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3B7A8A0B.E838478B@greenbelt.com> References: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >First language? No, I still think BASIC is best as a first language. And >before >I get yelled off the board, let me explain. Not all people are meant to Foo, why not start people with Eudora mail filters and work up to HTML? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 15 17:29:03 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225627@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >What I don't like is dog-and-pony shows, too much sturm und drang. The investors are getting itchy trigger fingers, so in a mad string of 23 hour days you kludge together a prototype of what in six months could be proof of concept. Things dangle by wires, error messages get turned off with an assembly flag, and nobody notices just how "busy" you and the rest of the engineers are during the demo keeping it alive. Then in a blur the CEO comes by shakes your hand and says, Great job, lets ship it. Dog and pony hell, in a startup its a do I have a job on Monday show. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 15 18:12:41 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets, Memory expansion boards In-Reply-To: References: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Generally either Printerworks or fixmyownprinter (something like that) has all the info you need plus the parts etc. I even have a pretty good stash of parts from some of the service depot auctions I have attended. I do tend to packrat manuals too, so ask me and I will look, but mostly its the user manuals. I have a BUNCH of brand new memory expansion boards for a VARIETY of different old laser printers (nothing very new). Brother, Olivetti, etc. plus HP II, IId, etc. As soon as I get them organized they are going on eBay. If you have an old printer you want a memory expansion board for ask me NOW, as in many cases I have ONE only of certain odd printers. $10 and shipping for a bare board (put your own old DRAM chips in it). From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 15 18:25:36 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <483.627T200T8954237optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 15, 2001 02:55:04 PM Message-ID: <200108152325.TAA13079@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: > > >I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > >be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > >Who's with me? > > Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. Depends upon the environment. Under AmigaOS you have RawDoFmt(), which is part of Exec and available to Assembly language programmers (and it works similar to C's printf()). Under MS-DOS you have INT 21h, funtion 9, which prints a text string (ended by a `$'). But all you really need is a way to print out characters, leaving printing of numeric values as a programming exercise. In fact, writing a printf()-like routine (no formatting, just stuff like `%d' and `%s') is fairly simple (6809 code): ********************************************** * PRINTF - a printf()-esque routine. * Entry: X - ASCIIZ string * U - user data stack * Exit: X - end of string * U - adjusted as data is used * A - 0 *********************************************** PRFT50 LDA ,X+ ; get next character after % CMPA #'% ; %? BEQ PRTF20 ; if so, print it CMPA #'d ; print a decimal number? BNE PRTF51 PULU D ; get value BSR DECOUT ; print it BRA PRINTF ; continue PRTF51 CMPA #'x ; print hex number? BNE PRTF52 PULU D ; get value BSR HEXOUT ; print hex value BRA PRINTF PRTF52 CMPA #'s ; print string? BNE PRTF20 PSHS X ; save current string PULU X ; get new string BSR PRINTF ; print it (oooh! recursion!) PULS X ; get old string BRA PRINTF PRTF10 CMPA #'% ; print data? BEQ PRFT50 ; if so, handle PRTF20 JSR CHROUT ; print character PRINTF LDA ,X+ ; get next character BNE PRTF10 ; if not NUL, continue RTS Now all that's left is writing CHROUT (or assume the system has such a routine), DECOUT and HEXOUT (HEXOUT is trivial, DECOUT may make some work). It's all a part of learning. -spc (Who wishes that Assembly was tought as a first language ... ) From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Aug 15 18:51:04 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: Message-ID: <3B7B0AE5.8A996A91@eoni.com> Another good resource is . Especially for the elusive error codes. (And Russ is right, the Apple manuals will not give you the error code interpretation nor the 'correct' HP part numbers. However, I've been keeping my printers alive for five or six years now by scavanging parts from other 'deaders' so have not needed the 'correct' part number. Just the correct part.) Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:22:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Aug 14, 1 09:41:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/b39743d8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:17:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <579.627T2700T2886097optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 15, 1 04:48:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 791 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/8f8baddd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:20:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010814230019.V3056-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 14, 1 11:10:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/0b146ece/attachment.ksh From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 15 18:53:20 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <483.627T200T8954237optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010815184846.H6407-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 15 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. Sure they do. If there is no assembly language code that prints characters, then how exactly does the BASIC interpreter do it? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 18:10:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 15, 1 07:50:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 758 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010816/46e1b23e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 18:13:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7A882C.C189923@woa.com.au> from "Terry Collins" at Aug 16, 1 00:33:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010816/a74fb669/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 15 19:14:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7AD8C8.2AE3CE29@eoni.com> References: <3B7AD8C8.2AE3CE29@eoni.com> Message-ID: >FWIW, The HP Laserjet II and the Apple Personal Laserwriter NT use the >same print engine (Canon). The Apple manuals are available on Gamba's >site at: Wasn't the NeXT laser printer based on one of the Canon engines as well, to the point of sharing some stuff with one of the early Laserjet's? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From r.stek at snet.net Wed Aug 15 19:15:42 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card Message-ID: <000001c125e8$b9ec3530$0301a8c0@bob> If it's a Calera board, it was designed by our own Jim Battle (come on out and take a bow, Jim!). Semi-OT Small World Dept. - In 1987 I used a Palantir OCR unit (5 68000 CPU's and 2MB ROM code) to convert all 60 Sherlock Holmes stories into machine readable ASCII format (sold several hundred copies of 'An Electronic Holmes Companion.') Soon after, Palantir was bought by Calera, and Jim Battle designed the ASIC for their board. Nearly 10 years later I hook up with Jim Battle when I send him a copy of the Sol User's Manual, and he remembers having heard about this guy who used the Palantir to scan the Holmes stories! Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 15 19:50:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <464.627T200T8914161optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. At 02:51 PM 8/15/01 +0100, you wrote: >Master of all that Sucks skrev: > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > >Indeed. I would pay double just to see someone pulling their hair out > >trying to run that at any speed 8-) > >I'd also like to see the the serial interface. How do you hook a terminal to a >cardboard computer? > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it! >For the full details, check out . From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 20:19:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <665.628T2400T1396141optimus@canit.se> Russ Blakeman skrev: >Oh now you post this, a week late. I just installed a brand new (well >unused) NEC drive in a machine that I shipped. I'll check on Thursday in my >storage building, may be able to dig up an Nec, Seagate or Miniscribe for >you in good working order from one of the Zenith 286's that I'm either going >to sell whole or dismanatle and sell item by item. You're actually getting rid of 286es without even paying the recipient!? Have you ever considered sellign sand to arabs? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN. It's really just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar. Bill Joy From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 20:18:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <006901c1258f$ee99ea60$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> Message-ID: <3875.628T200T1383469optimus@canit.se> Greg Lindsey skrev: >Ugh, no kidding. My university's student paper recently (meaning, before I >graduated) complained that the online registration process was too slow and >difficult to use, and resulted in registration errors. Their suggested >solution? Switch to a web-based registration system. Sure, that will speed >up our horribly bogged-down and underpowered Suns -- make them serve HTML >and run CGI Perl scripts. >Likewise, a flashy Web mail gateway was just set up for use. Luckily, they >still kept Pine on the servers for those of us who prefer power over >prettiness. I really hate this M$-ish webification. In the town where my grandparents live, the library was recently moved into a new, pretty building, and of course, they had to "modernise" the IT system as well. They replaced the old network of text terminals with sophisticated and powerful flat screens with Pentium PCs hidden in their feet. Those must have been cheap. All right, so now they're running a terminal program on these fancy PC screens, right? Not a chance! The consultants, who must have been subjected to a mongoose gonad transplant into the void where brains usually go, decided to run Citrix Winframe, which is a remote hack for Windows, working like a cross between X11 and VNC, at only 256 colours, and then running Netscape or Opera on the NT server (running Netscape or Opera in full colour on the local terminal would make more sense, but then they wouldn't have their consultant "fun"), with its homepage set to a WWW gateway to the old database on the library's intranet. Absolutely brilliant! The old text terminals were there for one purpose, namely that of searching the library book register, and they served their purpose without ever failing. Their interface was also absolutely straight-forward, using only a very limited number of keys. These new Windows PCs are not only more involved, they're also infinitely slower. Compare the efficience of pressing F6 to get the search screen, typing in a keyword, pressing return and then getting the list with F7 to that of using the mouse to activate the input field, typing the keyword, activating the search button with the mouse, getting the list, and then having to use the mouse to select titles. The mouse is not only slower, it's also more vulnerable and difficult for people not used to computers. The entire GUI methodology is totally superfluous in as limited an application as this. Every clickable gadget, every scroll bar on the screen is just an opportunity for the inexperienced user to fail doing what he/she wants, namely that of searching for book titles. And HTTP, combined with HTML pages and fancy graphics, travelling over a network to another host which renders the HTML and then transfers its screen to yet another host is infinitely slower than text over a 9k6 serial line with a direct connection to the database host. And then there's security. These PCs are more or less wide-open. Any Quake- playing fourteen-year-old is able to crack these PCs wide open. I do it every time I visit to show my disgust. The terminals were impermeable. I knew how to lock them up, but all you had to do in order to remedy that was to power-cycle them, which took only a few seconds before they were back up. Your average teenager will not be able to do any harm on them. And they had no loose or moving parts. Bad boys love stealing mouse balls. So far I've not been able to find any good point about the new system. They're expensive, both at purchase and in maintenance, they're wide open for attacks, they're slower and more difficult for the end user to handle. I'm getting so disgusted, thinking of it, I'll have to find those responsible the next time I visit. How I love progress, especially the MCSE tech definition. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 20:21:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: <20010815090424.C5736404@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <947.628T2300T1416145optimus@canit.se> Dan Wright skrev: >Iggy Drougge said: >> Dan Wright skrev: >> >> >I've seen these flat connectors (though I don't actually have a cable), >> >and I believe that they're physically the same a the connector HP uses for >> >HP-HIL keyboards & mice, and those aren't so uncommon... So I guess you >> >could try to dig up an HIL cable and solder a PS/2 connector onto the end >> >:) >> >> Then again that would be shame since PS/2 cables are far more common than >> HIL ones. >Are they? I guess my perceptions are just warped by working at U of I... I'd say the amount of PS/2 machines sold is exponentielly larger than the amount of HIL machines sold. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 20:33:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <00ab01c1259e$b12c1040$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> Message-ID: <2133.628T1450T1534919optimus@canit.se> Greg Lindsey skrev: >"Eric Chomko" wrote: >> Also, assembly language implies that you must first learn the computer >> architecture to some degree. High-lievel languages have no such >> prerequisite. >> >I'd tend to agree, in general. However, I think something like MIPS >assembly (such as that taught in CS courses at UIUC) might work well as a >"learners" language, and doesn't require knowing TOO much of the hardware >(aside from the registers / memory distinction, which could be taught using >a "file cabinet / cubbyholes" analogy). I'll have to look into MIPS asm some day. Could be a good use for the DECstation. Still, computer science students are not and have AFAIK never been the intended target group for BASIC. BASIC was meant for the common man, it's like the Mac amongst programming languages. >What about LOGO? I know it was touted as the next big beginner's language >in the late '80s, but never really took off... I think LOGO was rather touted as a children's language. The turtle is very nice for the first few minutes, but it provides a rather limited outlook on programming. >But, yeah, I'd say BASIC is still a pretty good language to see if someone >can "get" programming -- provided that someone moves to a structured >language quickly if he or she wishes, instead of getting into bad >programming habits (as I did for a while). But then is Pascal that bad? Whenever I think of BASIC, and I don't think this applies only to me, I think of a cosy 40-column TV screen on a micro with 64 k of addressable memory. Other languages just don't seem as cosy. Must be because of the environment. If the eight-bitters had booted into Pascal, perhaps things would have looked differently? The Swedish school computer COMPIS used COMAL, which is some distant relative to BASIC, I think. Haven't heard much about COMAL since the COMPIS was retired, though. =/ I might add that I've only once programmed Pascal, and that was when taking a test. It seemed nicer than C, though. I passed the test, too. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 15 20:09:51 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> from Chuck McManis at "Aug 15, 1 05:50:58 pm" Message-ID: <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Why do we scoff at fortune tellers, yet listen to economists? -------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 15 20:13:48 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108152325.TAA13079@conman.org> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Aug 15, 1 07:25:36 pm" Message-ID: <200108160113.SAA08746@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > >I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would > > >be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. > > >Who's with me? > > Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. > Depends upon the environment. Under AmigaOS you have RawDoFmt(), which is > part of Exec and available to Assembly language programmers (and it works > similar to C's printf()). Under MS-DOS you have INT 21h, funtion 9, which > prints a text string (ended by a `$'). But all you really need is a way to > print out characters, leaving printing of numeric values as a programming > exercise. Besides, why not steal such stuff from BASIC ROM? On the C64, print a string from memory by setting A/Y to the localtion and jsr $ab1e, and use the routine at $bdcd that LIST uses to print line numbers for 16-bit unsigned int. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Ten weeks from Friday you won't remember this fortune at all. ----- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Aug 15 20:29:28 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7B0AE5.8A996A91@eoni.com> Message-ID: Once you have any printer manufacturer's way of doing things down the rest are generally similar, such as the Okidata similarity in the dot matrixes or the Lexmark or HP line in the lasers. Of course there are some that are made by someone else and rebranded, such as some of the Tandys. I come across this all the time in copiers, such as an AB Dick being a Konica with a different screen print on the cover. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Arnott -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 6:51 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: ancient laserjets -> -> -> Another good resource is . Especially for -> the elusive error codes. (And Russ is right, the Apple manuals will not -> give you the error code interpretation nor the 'correct' HP part -> numbers. However, I've been keeping my printers alive for five or six -> years now by scavanging parts from other 'deaders' so have not needed -> the 'correct' part number. Just the correct part.) -> -> Jim -> From terryc at woa.com.au Wed Aug 15 20:47:07 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: Message-ID: <3B7B261B.FD41959B@woa.com.au> Tony Duell wrote: > > If that's a single-sided SX engine, then you might be in luck > > I've taken the single-sided CX and SX engines totally apart (down to the > last screw) and put them together again. And I can remember how I did it. > If you tell me/the list which roller you want to get out, I can tell you > just waht to undo. The paper pickup roller at the front - first contact to feed paper. Thanks. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 15 21:01:20 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Online version of 8080 manual Message-ID: Hello, all: Does anyone have a pointer to an on-line version of the Intel 8080 datasheet? Before I begin to scan mine for posting, I thought that I'd check. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 15 21:04:33 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: He's just checking-in . . . Message-ID: <20010815.210433.353.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Gee, I dunno-- From the archetecture, it looks like it was built in the early 20th century, but that's just a guess. OB Classic: WHen I lived in Baltimore (in 1980), I used to be a field service droid for a local business machine company (now defunct). We were totally floored when we unpacked the first 'Winchester' drive we ever sold to one of our CADO customers. A whopping 10Mb on an 18-inch platter. "Ten MILLION bytes!" by boss exclaimed, in sheer disbelief. Those *were* the days . . . . On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:19:35 -0400 Eric Chomko writes: Yes, yes, you can see the Bromo Seltzer tower from Camden Yards as well. But what year was it built? Eric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010815/b144725d/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 15 21:18:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: 68020 ISA card In-Reply-To: Re: 68020 ISA card (Bob Stek) References: <000001c125e8$b9ec3530$0301a8c0@bob> Message-ID: <15227.11659.195102.858532@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 15, Bob Stek wrote: > If it's a Calera board, it was designed by our own Jim Battle (come on > out and take a bow, Jim!). Kick ass! Great job, Jim! I was really impressed with that board. It did a wonderful job, and seemed very well-designed. > Semi-OT Small World Dept. - In 1987 I used a Palantir OCR unit (5 68000 > CPU's and 2MB ROM code) to convert all 60 Sherlock Holmes stories into > machine readable ASCII format (sold several hundred copies of 'An > Electronic Holmes Companion.') Soon after, Palantir was bought by > Calera, and Jim Battle designed the ASIC for their board. Nearly 10 > years later I hook up with Jim Battle when I send him a copy of the Sol > User's Manual, and he remembers having heard about this guy who used the > Palantir to scan the Holmes stories! Interesting...the Calera board and software that I used created ".pda" files...for "Palantir Document Architecture". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 15 22:00:59 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: That's what's so great about standards; everybody can have a unique one of their own. - George Morrow > > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 15 22:14:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: Message-ID: <003501c12601$84aae6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You may find it convenient that a common household spot-remover, targeted at carpets, called "Spot Shot" seems to do a really fine job on those aged rubber follers, cams, and belts that are involved in paper transport and consequently pick up lots of dust and eventually get too slippery to do their job. Just spray a bit of it on a relatively low-lint cloth or paper-based applicator of some sort, and you'll find it works very well, and after only one application, generally. This particular IID is pretty clean inside, though it looks as though the cover over the fuser assembly got pretty hot at one time or another. It passes self test and also prints cleanly. It has 85k sheets through it, though. My two 10-year old (got 'em new) LJIII's have about 15k sheets through them, combined. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 4:59 PM Subject: RE: ancient laserjets > You can try cleaning the pickup rollers and registry roller with a clean > cloth and iso alcohol - don't use platen cleaner or MEK, they will fall > apart. As far as the duplex function, it comes in very handy (I have a > Lexmark LX+ w/netcard, duplexer, second tray, envelope feeder, etc) and I > use it all the time as most of my hard print manuals were PDF form when I > got them and I've printed them without problems. > > You should be able to select duplex on/off in the printer driver and on the > control panel. If you select duplex on with the panel it will be on all of > the time, where using the duplex in the print driver can be used temp or > permanently. > > Don't vacuum the excess dust and toner with a household vac- you'll fry the > vac with the metallics in the toner and subject the printer to static. If > anything use a dry clean cloth to get as much up as possible and then canned > air for the rest but don't blow it into the fuser area. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 2:47 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: ancient laserjets > -> > -> > -> There's no problem, aside from the need for a bit of cleaning. > -> particularly of > -> the pickup rollers. I just want to gather up the documentation > -> before it all > -> disappears. There are things that this printer will do that my > -> others, being > -> simpler, won't do. One, I hope, is print on both sides of the > -> paper without my > -> intervention. This will save a lot of hassle whenever someone > -> asks me for a > -> printed copy of something. > -> > -> The printer in question has two trays, some sort of assembly on > -> the back that's > -> absent from my other II's and III's and it has a couple of font > -> cartridges, the > -> value of which is a mystery to me, since the printer fonts are > -> downloadable > -> anyway, I hope. > -> > -> I haven't used a II in about a decade, since I've had III's for > -> over a decade > -> and recently got a few more (I couldn't pass 'em up at $4 each, > -> since they had > -> fairly full toner cartridges. One of 'em even had a memory > -> board just like the > -> one I bought for over $100 a decade or so ago.) > -> > -> I'm interested in things like the available options, RAM > -> expansion connector > -> pinout, etc. This printer has 2.5 MB of RAM, but my other II > -> has only the half > -> MB that comes standard with 'em. I have TONS of DRAMs and, > -> since the printer > -> just sends addresses and data (at least in the case of the III) > -> to the memory > -> board, I figure I can either buy one for a few bucks or build > -> one myself. Over > -> the years I've trimmed memory arrays off boards that were going > -> into the trash, > -> so I have arrays of various physical sizes, ranging from 256Kx8 > -> to 256Mx32. > -> It's possible that one or another of those will save me a lot of wiring. > -> > -> I also have a JetLan board in an LJ3 that I might consider > -> moving to the IID if > -> it will work there and use the thing as a standalone server as > -> the III has been. > -> With its duplexing capabilities that would be useful, though I'm > -> not convinced > -> the LJ-IID can use the JETLAN board. If not, I'll just attach > -> it to the Netware > -> server. > -> > -> Thanks for the info. I'll save your email address so I can > -> contact you off-list > -> if I have a problem I can't figure out. > -> > -> Dick > -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> From: "Russ Blakeman" > -> To: > -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:08 PM > -> Subject: RE: ancient laserjets > -> > -> > -> > You have a Laserjet IID (33447A)printer, right? > -> > > -> > Is it a duplexer problem, paper pickup, etc problem? I don't > -> have the normal > -> > manual but I have the consolidated one for all of the > -> "classic" laserjets, > -> > except the IIIsi/4Si (they still print that, consolidated into > -> one). I work > -> > HP printers all the time and much of the info is burned into > -> my NVRAM on top > -> > of my shoulders, although sometimes the system clock is off a > -> little and it > -> > takes a few minutes to extract the info (grin) > -> > > -> > The IID and IIID printers are big but run cheaply and easily. > -> > Here's what HP shows for the still avilable service manual (includes > -> > shipping): > -> > > -> > p/n 33459-90906...$83.00...33447A/33459A LaserJet IID/IIID > -> Combined Service > -> > Manual > -> > > -> > Since I'm an HP ASP I can get a discount and could get it for > -> you for $75 > -> > rather than $83, even have it shipped from HP direct to you > -> (or anyone else > -> > in the US)-agian that is for the printed/bound manual and > -> shipping. There is > -> > no electronic version in existance that I know of and I too > -> would love to > -> > have it if there was/were. > -> > > -> > -> -----Original Message----- > -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > -> Richard Erlacher > -> > -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:51 AM > -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> > -> Subject: ancient laserjets > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> I've always wanted a 2-sided-capable laser printer, preferably a > -> > -> Laserjet IIId > -> > -> or 4D, but, yesterday I ran onto a pretty thoroughly equipped > -> > -> LaserJet IID and > -> > -> couldn't resist. I find, however, that HP has no longer got the > -> > -> electronic > -> > -> versions of its user's manual, technical reference, or service > -> > -> manual on its web > -> > -> site. > -> > -> > -> > -> Doesn anybody have a pointer to these documents on the 'net? > -> > -> > -> > -> thanx, > -> > -> > -> > -> Dick > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > > -> > > -> > -> > > From technos at crosswinds.net Wed Aug 15 22:55:03 2001 From: technos at crosswinds.net (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets Message-ID: <01C125E5.C9E82FA0.technos@crosswinds.net> Heh.. I once personally passed 7,000 sheets per day through a III for four days straight. One jam, one swap of the cartridge, and a quick swipe with a cleaning cloth to kill the dust. Greatest, most bullet-proof printer I've ever used, with a slight exception for an old Pitney Bowes laser.. I still prefer them, to the point of refusing a HP4 in trade for it.. Jim On Wednesday, August 15, 2001 11:14 PM, Richard Erlacher [SMTP:edick@idcomm.com] wrote: > > passes self > test and also prints cleanly. It has 85k sheets through it, though. > My two > 10-year old (got 'em new) LJIII's have about 15k sheets through them, > combined. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 15 23:27:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: <01C125E5.C9E82FA0.technos@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <000d01c1260b$b23b21c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's good to know that some LJ3's hold up that well. If you pass the rated 8 ppm through them you only have time time for 11520 sheets in 24 hours. 7000/11520 is pretty busy, representing over 14.5 hours of constantly full utilization. Somebody must have stood there to refill the tray while 3-4 computers kept the buffer full. I'd say you were geting your money's worth during that timespan. I don't like the later laser printers either, though they don't cost as much as they once did. I have an Okidata OL-1200 which emulates an HP4 pretty well, and prints a genuine 12 ppm at 600 DPI, and somewhat faster in text-only. It has the advantage that you can refill the toner reservoir yourself. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Tuck" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: RE: ancient laserjets > Heh.. I once personally passed 7,000 sheets per day through a > III for four days straight. One jam, one swap of the cartridge, and > a quick swipe with a cleaning cloth to kill the dust. > > Greatest, most bullet-proof printer I've ever used, with a slight > exception for an old Pitney Bowes laser.. I still prefer them, to the > point of refusing a HP4 in trade for it.. > > Jim > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2001 11:14 PM, Richard Erlacher > [SMTP:edick@idcomm.com] wrote: > > > > passes self > > test and also prints cleanly. It has 85k sheets through it, though. > > My two > > 10-year old (got 'em new) LJIII's have about 15k sheets through them, > > combined. > > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Aug 15 23:45:02 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <003501c12601$84aae6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010815214439.00a342c0@mail.zipcon.net> I usually use Rubber Renu on the pickup rollers. works great. At 09:14 PM 8/15/01 -0600, you wrote: >You may find it convenient that a common household spot-remover, targeted at >carpets, called "Spot Shot" seems to do a really fine job on those aged rubber >follers, cams, and belts that are involved in paper transport and consequently >pick up lots of dust and eventually get too slippery to do their job. Just >spray a bit of it on a relatively low-lint cloth or paper-based applicator of >some sort, and you'll find it works very well, and after only one application, >generally. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 15 23:47:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010815214439.00a342c0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <001301c1260e$8e301d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I haven't seen Rubber Renu at the Safeway, yet, but that's one place you can depend on getting Spot-Shot. Moreover, I've yet to have a spot on my beige carpeting that Spot-Shot can't remove. It's not bad having a product that does something useful as well as what it's supposed to do. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 10:45 PM Subject: Re: ancient laserjets > I usually use Rubber Renu on the pickup rollers. works great. > > At 09:14 PM 8/15/01 -0600, you wrote: > >You may find it convenient that a common household spot-remover, targeted at > >carpets, called "Spot Shot" seems to do a really fine job on those aged rubber > >follers, cams, and belts that are involved in paper transport and consequently > >pick up lots of dust and eventually get too slippery to do their job. Just > >spray a bit of it on a relatively low-lint cloth or paper-based applicator of > >some sort, and you'll find it works very well, and after only one application, > >generally. > > From technos at nerdland.org Thu Aug 16 00:41:01 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets Message-ID: <01C125F4.81C2A6B0.technos@nerdland.org> One PC to fill the buffer, print bridge from a pair of AS/400. One secretary watching over it, then the night IS guy. Y2K BS, we were printing every line of in-house code on the machines. Really got off on telling the IS veep we had three million lines of legacy code tho.. Thought he was about to soil his Brooks Brothers.. Jim On Thursday, August 16, 2001 12:27 AM, Richard Erlacher [SMTP:edick@idcomm.com] wrote: > It's good to know that some LJ3's hold up that well. If you pass the > rated 8 > ppm through them you only have time time for 11520 sheets in 24 hours. > > 7000/11520 is pretty busy, representing over 14.5 hours of constantly > full > utilization. Somebody must have stood there to refill the tray while > 3-4 > computers kept the buffer full. I'd say you were geting your money's > worth > during that timespan. > > I don't like the later laser printers either, though they don't cost > as much as > they once did. I have an Okidata OL-1200 which emulates an HP4 pretty > well, and > prints a genuine 12 ppm at 600 DPI, and somewhat faster in text-only. > It has > the advantage that you can refill the toner reservoir yourself. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Tuck" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 9:55 PM > Subject: RE: ancient laserjets > > > > Heh.. I once personally passed 7,000 sheets per day through a > > III for four days straight. One jam, one swap of the cartridge, and > > a quick swipe with a cleaning cloth to kill the dust. > > > > Greatest, most bullet-proof printer I've ever used, with a slight > > exception for an old Pitney Bowes laser.. I still prefer them, to > > the > > point of refusing a HP4 in trade for it.. > > > > Jim From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 16 00:43:44 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable References: Message-ID: <3B7B5D90.E21400C@internet1.net> Oh, I assumed you were American, sorry. Do you have any thrift stores that would have computers at all? Given the number of systems IBM shipped with these keyboards it seems that getting the cable surplus shouldn't be too hard. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Matt London wrote: > If I were one of you american types perhaps ;&) > > /me is a brit through and through :&) > > -- Matt From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 16 00:45:48 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: Dead PC References: Message-ID: <3B7B5E0C.ED412403@internet1.net> Until now, I never noticed the difference in spelling. I always wondered what Naval Jelly had to do with Navels :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Don Maslin wrote: > Quite right and that may be part of the reason they did NOT name it > Navel Jelly - it ain't for belly buttons! Try Naval... > > - don From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 16 05:26:27 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7B261B.FD41959B@woa.com.au> References: Message-ID: >Tony Duell wrote: >> >> If that's a single-sided SX engine, then you might be in luck >> >> I've taken the single-sided CX and SX engines totally apart (down to the >> last screw) and put them together again. And I can remember how I did it. >> If you tell me/the list which roller you want to get out, I can tell you >> just waht to undo. > >The paper pickup roller at the front - first contact to feed paper. >Thanks. Somebody sells a kit of parts with instructions on ebay for about $20. Cleaning works the first few times. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 16 05:35:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <000d01c1260b$b23b21c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <01C125E5.C9E82FA0.technos@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: >I don't like the later laser printers either, though they don't cost as >much as >they once did. I have an Okidata OL-1200 which emulates an HP4 pretty >well, and I am thinking about getting a middle aged HP, a 6MP. which my printer saavy friends say is very solid, but with most modern printer features (600 dpi, ethernet, etc.). Anybody using a IBM 3812? (I have some toner, image belt,etc.) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 16 06:15:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >What I don't like is dog-and-pony shows, too much sturm und drang. > > It's all about sturm und drang. We had a kid in the neighborhood who was a great show-off... he used to ride his bicycle head-on at cars, doing a wheely, then veer off at the last second. I figured if he survived to adulthood, then there'd be a job in marketing for him. > Programming contests are another deal. They're just about academic > programming. Demos are more like MTV on a computer screen. Yeah, and I always considered MTV to be one big marketing outlet. At least I appear to have this in perspective now... I've always believed that consumers should research the products they purchase, and that a good product will sell itself. Marketing merely raises the ultimate costs of a product, so perhaps you'll understand why I don't have a very high opinion of it. Or of a generation or programmers who rose to serve marketing's needs. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 16 06:49:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. > > > Depends upon the environment. Under AmigaOS you have RawDoFmt(), which is > > part of Exec and available to Assembly language programmers (and it works > > similar to C's printf()). Under MS-DOS you have INT 21h, funtion 9, which > > prints a text string (ended by a `$'). But all you really need is a way to > > print out characters, leaving printing of numeric values as a programming > > exercise. > > Besides, why not steal such stuff from BASIC ROM? On the C64, print a string > from memory by setting A/Y to the localtion and jsr $ab1e, and use the routine > at $bdcd that LIST uses to print line numbers for 16-bit unsigned int. This is the kind of thing on the PC that I was ranting about... C64, my dog ain't in that fight... Oh well... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 16 06:58:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:26 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > But then is Pascal that bad? Bad? Bad at what? bad *for* what? > Whenever I think of BASIC, and I don't think this applies only to me, I think > of a cosy 40-column TV screen on a micro with 64 k of addressable memory. > Other languages just don't seem as cosy. Must be because of the environment. > If the eight-bitters had booted into Pascal, perhaps things would have looked > differently? Most likely you're correct, but then I associate BASIC with a full compiler that could generate 132-column headered listings complete with symbol table and assembly language output for each statement. Some 8-bitters *did* boot directly into Pascal... at least I never saw a copy of UCSD Pascal that was anything other than language environment *AND* operating system combined... And as for booting directly into a language environment, any old FORTH programmers here? At one time, I thought FORTH would rule the world. From kentborg at borg.org Thu Aug 16 07:59:30 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu>; from spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu on Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 06:09:51PM -0700 References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20010816085930.A15770@borg.org> On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 06:09:51PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. It depends. If one is blindly copying the entire previous message (or worse, entire message thread), it is better to put all that garbage at the bottom of the new message so the reader can easily ignore such chaff. (Can you tell I have a bias?) I am of the school of thought that figures the only reason for quoting previous content is to provide context so the new message will make sense. Following this reasoning, the context should be established first. HOWEVER, it is very important to trim the quote so that it only provides enough context and doesn't go overboard and turn into spam. Ever seen the TV program "The West Wing"? They start most programs with a short "previously on The West Wing..."-bit. It comes first (so the following program will make sense) and it is shorter than the new program (even though it covers more territory--the idea is that it be the new stuff that is important). It is also important to make clear what is what. I have seen messages where the new material is apparently marked off with quoting characters. I don't know how that happens. Remember, the goal is to communicate--and to be clear even. -kb, the normally liberal Kent who was nevertheless ~rather~ fond of that fascist feature in "rn" that refused to make a usenet posting that had more quoted material than new material. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Aug 16 08:20:01 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <20010816.082006.80.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:15:53 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman writes: > We had a kid in the neighborhood who was a great show-off... > he used to ride his bicycle head-on at cars, doing a wheely, > then veer off at the last second. Hey! That could have been me! We put together a bike from misc parts, but didn't have a proper rear wheel (a 'front' wheel was substituted). The result? The Kamikaze Bike: No Brakes. No Pedals. No Fear. I piloted that sucker down the street in front of our house (it was a fairly steep hill). I crashed and burned into a hedge at the bottom, but oooooh what a rush. > I figured if he survived to adulthood, then there'd be a > job in marketing for him. Well, I survived into adulthood, and became a programmer-- go figure. > Marketing merely raises the ultimate costs of a product, so > perhaps you'll understand why I don't have a very high > opinion of it. Or of a generation or programmers who rose > to serve marketing's needs. Marketing has another *very* undesirable effect-- It allows lousy products to succeed, and good products to fail (for lack of). I would rant and rave about how these 'successful' products then frequently become 'standards', but I won't beat that rotting, stinking horse anymore. OB Classic: Yesterday I scored a VaxStation 4000/90 with 2 x 600mb drives, and 128Mb of RAM (or thereabouts-- it has 8 x 16Mb simms). Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 08:30:27 2001 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <20010816085930.A15770@borg.org> Message-ID: I read my mail by cat'ing the mail spool file to a line printer. Is that classical enough? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Borg" To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? > On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 06:09:51PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > > > > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > > > I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. > > It depends. If one is blindly copying the entire previous message (or > worse, entire message thread), it is better to put all that garbage at > the bottom of the new message so the reader can easily ignore such > chaff. (Can you tell I have a bias?) > > I am of the school of thought that figures the only reason for quoting > previous content is to provide context so the new message will make > sense. Following this reasoning, the context should be established > first. HOWEVER, it is very important to trim the quote so that it > only provides enough context and doesn't go overboard and turn into > spam. Ever seen the TV program "The West Wing"? They start most > programs with a short "previously on The West Wing..."-bit. It comes > first (so the following program will make sense) and it is shorter > than the new program (even though it covers more territory--the idea > is that it be the new stuff that is important). > > It is also important to make clear what is what. I have seen messages > where the new material is apparently marked off with quoting > characters. I don't know how that happens. > > Remember, the goal is to communicate--and to be clear even. > > > -kb, the normally liberal Kent who was nevertheless ~rather~ fond of > that fascist feature in "rn" that refused to make a usenet posting > that had more quoted material than new material. > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Aug 16 08:46:15 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <01C125E5.C9E82FA0.technos@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: Many of the Pitney-Bowes machines were actually C.Itoh with a new brand name on them. Heavy buggers but worked well too. The one laser I would suggest people stay away from for high volume in HP's line is the L series, mainly the 5L, 6L and 3100/3150 printers - unless you're good at changing separation pads every 8 to 12 thousand pages. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 10:55 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: ancient laserjets -> -> -> Heh.. I once personally passed 7,000 sheets per day through a -> III for four days straight. One jam, one swap of the cartridge, and -> a quick swipe with a cleaning cloth to kill the dust. -> -> Greatest, most bullet-proof printer I've ever used, with a slight -> exception for an old Pitney Bowes laser.. I still prefer them, to the -> point of refusing a HP4 in trade for it.. -> -> Jim -> -> On Wednesday, August 15, 2001 11:14 PM, Richard Erlacher -> [SMTP:edick@idcomm.com] wrote: -> > -> > passes self -> > test and also prints cleanly. It has 85k sheets through it, though. -> > My two -> > 10-year old (got 'em new) LJIII's have about 15k sheets through them, -> > combined. -> -> -> -> From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 16 08:52:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <20010816085930.A15770@borg.org> Message-ID: <001e01c1265a$aed08da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I suppose I could route my email to my plotter and have it scrawl the stuff with a pencil point ... but why? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? > I read my mail by cat'ing the mail spool file to a line printer. Is that > classical enough? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kent Borg" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:59 AM > Subject: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? > > > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 06:09:51PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > > > > > > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > > > > > I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. > > > > It depends. If one is blindly copying the entire previous message (or > > worse, entire message thread), it is better to put all that garbage at > > the bottom of the new message so the reader can easily ignore such > > chaff. (Can you tell I have a bias?) > > > > I am of the school of thought that figures the only reason for quoting > > previous content is to provide context so the new message will make > > sense. Following this reasoning, the context should be established > > first. HOWEVER, it is very important to trim the quote so that it > > only provides enough context and doesn't go overboard and turn into > > spam. Ever seen the TV program "The West Wing"? They start most > > programs with a short "previously on The West Wing..."-bit. It comes > > first (so the following program will make sense) and it is shorter > > than the new program (even though it covers more territory--the idea > > is that it be the new stuff that is important). > > > > It is also important to make clear what is what. I have seen messages > > where the new material is apparently marked off with quoting > > characters. I don't know how that happens. > > > > Remember, the goal is to communicate--and to be clear even. > > > > > > -kb, the normally liberal Kent who was nevertheless ~rather~ fond of > > that fascist feature in "rn" that refused to make a usenet posting > > that had more quoted material than new material. > > > > > > From hansp at aconit.org Thu Aug 16 10:14:31 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <20010816085930.A15770@borg.org> Message-ID: <3B7BE357.3050901@aconit.org> Jason McBrien wrote: > I read my mail by cat'ing the mail spool file to a line printer. Is that > classical enough? Only if it's an IBM 1403 printer ;-) -- HBP From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 16 09:22:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108160109.SAA08842@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. > What Iggy was getting his britches in a knot over was when I use inline quotes to respond to specific statements. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 16 09:15:18 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <3875.628T200T1383469optimus@canit.se> References: <006901c1258f$ee99ea60$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010816091417.02dd7470@pc> At 02:18 AM 8/16/01 +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >I really hate this M$-ish webification. >In the town where my grandparents live, the library was recently moved into a >new, pretty building, and of course, they had to "modernise" the IT system as >well. They replaced the old network of text terminals with sophisticated and >powerful flat screens with Pentium PCs hidden in their feet. Those must have >been cheap. Oh yeah? When I walk into a new library, my first reflex is still to look for the card catalog. :-) - John From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 16 09:25:17 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Keyboard Cable In-Reply-To: <3B7B5D90.E21400C@internet1.net> Message-ID: And the fact that these keyboards are still being made. I don't see any reason for messing up another existing keyboard. You can still get new ones. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Oh, I assumed you were American, sorry. Do you have any thrift stores > that would have computers at all? Given the number of systems IBM > shipped with these keyboards it seems that getting the cable surplus > shouldn't be too hard. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Matt London wrote: > > If I were one of you american types perhaps ;&) > > > > /me is a brit through and through :&) > > > > -- Matt > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 16 09:26:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <3B7B5E0C.ED412403@internet1.net> Message-ID: Foster Brooks once told a joke that went something like this: I was in the service. And I think I was in the toughest branch of the service. I was in the Nav*BURP!* Naval Air Force. Hoooo. Ever try forcing air through a Navel? Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Until now, I never noticed the difference in spelling. I always > wondered what Naval Jelly had to do with Navels :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Don Maslin wrote: > > Quite right and that may be part of the reason they did NOT name it > > Navel Jelly - it ain't for belly buttons! Try Naval... > > > > - don > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 16 09:28:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: How about a somewhat new FORTH programmer? Opto22's intelligent I/O systems can be either programmed in BASIC or FORTH. I have done both at one time or another. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > And as for booting directly into a language environment, any old FORTH > programmers here? At one time, I thought FORTH would rule the world. From glindsey at ssinc.com Thu Aug 16 10:18:15 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <006901c1258f$ee99ea60$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20010816091417.02dd7470@pc> Message-ID: <00e301c12666$be1436c0$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> > At 02:18 AM 8/16/01 +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >I really hate this M$-ish webification. > >In the town where my grandparents live, the library was recently moved into a > >new, pretty building, and of course, they had to "modernise" the IT system as > >well. They replaced the old network of text terminals with sophisticated and > >powerful flat screens with Pentium PCs hidden in their feet. Those must have > >been cheap. > > Oh yeah? When I walk into a new library, my first reflex is > still to look for the card catalog. :-) When I'm in the library, and the "5 minutes until closing" speech is sounded, I look for the old terminals to shut off, because I used to be a page there. But our library did the exact same thing Iggy's did -- replaced a bunch of older text terminals with a web-based system running on a bunch of Pentiums. I just don't understand that mentality; it's like using a wood chipper to sharpen a pencil. But without card catalogs, what are the ghosts going to play practical jokes on the librarians with? ^_^ GSL, who doesn't think that scene in _Ghostbusters_ would've been quite as neat with Pentium machines... From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 16 10:12:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Jason McBrien wrote: > I read my mail by cat'ing the mail spool file to a line printer. Is that > classical enough? I would call that fairly sick (only slightly more so than reading the mailspool directly with "more"). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 16 11:22:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225643@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I am of the school of thought that figures the only reason for quoting > previous content is to provide context so the new message will make > sense. Following this reasoning, the context should be established > first. HOWEVER, it is very important to trim the quote so that it > only provides enough context and doesn't go overboard and turn into > spam. Ever seen the TV program "The West Wing"? They start most > programs with a short "previously on The West Wing..."-bit. It comes > first (so the following program will make sense) and it is shorter > than the new program (even though it covers more territory--the idea > is that it be the new stuff that is important). I hate to be such a ditto-head, but... what Kent said. -dq From dittman at dittman.net Thu Aug 16 11:22:54 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 16, 2001 10:22:28 AM Message-ID: <200108161622.f7GGMsm14748@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > >Sridhar, REPLY BELOW THE MESSAGES YOU QUOTE. > > > > > Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > > > I thought it was more or less a de facto standard to top-quote. > > > What Iggy was getting his britches in a knot over was when I use inline > quotes to respond to specific statements. Which is the standard way of replying. Replying with the entire message after the response is the "Micro$oft standard", which almost always means deviating from the norm. Replying inline with editing to remove unnecessary information is the best way, as it is easier to follow exactly to what the person is replying. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 16 11:47:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010816111240.K7919-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Yeah, and I always considered MTV to be one big marketing > outlet. At least I appear to have this in perspective now... You're so right. I've always resented the way MTV, radio stations, etc. tell kids and young adults what music they are to like, and I doubly resent the eagerness with which the subjects flock to obey. Obligatory Rush lyric, from "The Spirit of Radio": "One likes to believe in the freedom of music, But glittering prizes and endless compromises Shatter the illusion of integrity." > Or of a generation or programmers who rose to serve marketing's needs. I don't know if it's a property of the generation itself or just of Evil Corps that have made it so, but there are certainly a good number of such people. There's a very outspoken one that always ends up in at least one of my CS classes every semester. Oh, and did I mention that he is Microsoft's "student representative" for the University? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From curt at atari-history.com Thu Aug 16 12:17:20 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: Message-ID: <002901c12677$4ecb3af0$c2609040@syzygy2> Is anyone running any internet connected lynx servers with dialup capability??? I've wanted to do this myself as many older Atari 8-bit groups would like access for email and newsgroup reading to stay connected with the online Atari communities. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Who reads their email the most Classically? > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > I read my mail by cat'ing the mail spool file to a line printer. Is that > > classical enough? > > I would call that fairly sick (only slightly more so than reading the > mailspool directly with "more"). > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 16 12:34:30 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010816.082006.80.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816102715.01bc51d0@209.185.79.193> At 08:20 AM 8/16/01 -0500, Jeff wrote: >Marketing has another *very* undesirable effect-- It allows >lousy products to succeed, and good products to fail (for >lack of). Perhaps you misunderstand Jeff, Marketing has nothing at all to do with _products_ succeeding, and everything to do with _companies_ succeeding. Good marketing will position the companies products in the marketplace so that consumers will buy them if given an opportunity. It is, of course, merely the commercial version of propaganda. And as we all know, a good minister of Propaganda and encourage the people to love the government, even when it is evil. I have issues when Marketing is actually working against the company (thus facilitating company failure) by doing things like lying to the customer, misrepresenting the customer to engineering/manufacturing, or just being plain incompetent. >Yesterday I scored a VaxStation 4000/90 with 2 x 600mb drives, >and 128Mb of RAM (or thereabouts-- it has 8 x 16Mb simms). Very nice, very fast VAX! --Chuck From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Thu Aug 16 13:21:02 2001 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? In-Reply-To: <200105082305.f48N5Y010826@bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com>; from pechter@bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com on Tue, May 08, 2001 at 07:05:34PM -0400 References: <00a201c0d80d$a4152ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <200105082305.f48N5Y010826@bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20010816132102.F5064@mastif> Hello - I have a 29C, with recharging problems. I'm hoping the battery packs are similar. How did you get the back cover on the battery pack to stay on after you cut it off? On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 07:05:34PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I have an HP-21 and a 25C. For over 20 years, I've used a slightly modified > > battery pack, modified only in that the individual NiCd's are removable and > > easily replaced. This was done in about 15 seconds with an Exacto knife. The > > batteries are easily exchanged if they go south, but I often use alkaline > > batteries if I really need to, with no ill effects yet. > > > > Dick > > I did the same thing with my sister's HP21 (which I used, gave back and > she lost 8-() > > Boy I wish I still had that calculator. > > Bill > > --- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * Fax: (219) 631-9924 * * * * ************************************************************************ From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Aug 16 13:25:19 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: "Curt Vendel"'s message of "Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:17:20 -0400" References: <002901c12677$4ecb3af0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: <200108161825.f7GIPJA62557@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Curt Vendel" wrote: > Is anyone running any internet connected lynx servers with dialup > capability??? I've wanted to do this myself as many older Atari 8-bit > groups would like access for email and newsgroup reading to stay connected > with the online Atari communities. They're called "shell accounts". Yes, they exist as commercial offerings. For example, Panix in NYC (http://www.panix.com/) and a2i communications in the San Francisco Bay Area (http://www.rahul.net/). -Frank McConnell From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Aug 16 14:03:43 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) In-Reply-To: <3B7A7D90.719A4E68@olf.com> Message-ID: Well I checked and it seems only one fits your needs and it has a problem -in that it won't power up. Sorry about that. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ram -> Meenakshisundaram -> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:48 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Need ST506-based HD (20MByte or 55MByte) -> -> -> Hi, -> -> Does anyone have a spare ST506-based HD laying around unused. -> I am specifically looking for a 20MByte or 55Mbyte in size. Here is the -> -> models I am specifically looking for: -> -> NEC D3126 -> Olivetti HD352 -> -> But any would do. I am planning on reviving a TMB05 transputer disk -> controller (M212-based transputer tram motherboard with a ST506 -> disk drive interface). This is just one of the many missing pieces. -> The -> board is basically unsocketed, so it is missing a lot of chips, etc -> including -> the M212. I found a source for the M212, but still need a HD. -> -> Thanks, -> -> Ram -> -> -- -> -> ,,,, -> /'^'\ -> ( o o ) -> -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- -> | Ram Meenakshisundaram | -> | Senior Software Engineer | -> | OpenLink Financial Inc | -> | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | -> | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | -> ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- -> \_) ) / -> (_/ -> -> -> -> From kentborg at borg.org Thu Aug 16 14:31:12 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108161825.f7GIPJA62557@daemonweed.reanimators.org>; from fmc@reanimators.org on Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:25:19AM -0700 References: <002901c12677$4ecb3af0$c2609040@syzygy2> <200108161825.f7GIPJA62557@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20010816153112.B16080@borg.org> On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:25:19AM -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: > They're called "shell accounts". Yes, they exist as commercial > offerings. For example, Panix in NYC (http://www.panix.com/) and a2i > communications in the San Francisco Bay Area (http://www.rahul.net/). Don't forget the well respected world.std.com. -kb, the Kent who is sure there are others. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 16 15:13:32 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Down-under articles on retrocomputing Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010816151256.02d9a9e0@pc> >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:38:13 +1000 >From: Nathan Cochrane >Reply-To: ncochrane@theage.fairfax.com.au >Organization: The Age newspaper >To: "Nathan Cochrane (E-mail)" >Subject: Many thanks for your help on the emulation article > >Once again, my deep appreciation for your help in compiling the >article(s), which you will find online at: > >Bernie's lost in time >Bernie Meyer flips a CD-ROM into his PC and, in an instant, turns it >into a time machine. Within a few seconds an old friend ? a red and >white chequered ball ? bounces around the screen. Welcome to Amiga, >circa 1985. >http://www.it.mycareer.com.au/news/2001/08/14/FFX6PT25BQC.html > >When I grow up I'll be a Mac >Emulators fall into the category of virtual machines, a class that takes >in Sun Microsystems' Java. The emulator software makes a PC, Macintosh, >Linux or any other desktop think it's another computer or console game >system. >http://www.it.mycareer.com.au/news/2001/08/14/FFXAYW25BQC.html > >Going retro >It was a humble Sinclair Spectrum computer that, nearly two decades ago, >nudged the teenage Pierre Scotney on to a path of programming and logic >that he hopes will lead to a gene therapy for heart disease. >http://www.it.mycareer.com.au/news/2001/08/13/FFXGPU25BQC.html > >If you have problems getting a hard copy of today's paper, let me know >and I will organise to have one sent to you. > >This is the first of two packages on emulation and retrocomputing. The >second will appear in the Livewire supplement embedded in the Green >Guide liftout, probably in the next 13-20 days. > >All the best > >Nathan From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 16 15:16:05 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Fwd: Apple IIgs rescue in Florida Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010816151535.02de1250@pc> >From: Compnavi@aol.com >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:13:23 EDT >Subject: Computer Donation >To: jfoust@threedee.com > >Mr. Foust - > >Due to the fact that computers have so drastically revolutionized the world >and the way we live, and due to the fact that proper history of computers and >a collection demonstrating this history will be more valuable than a >collection of historical automobiles or planes, or any item collected >previously, it would be my pleasure to offer you a piece of computer history >for your collection. > >I would like to donate to your museum a perfectly working and complete Apple >IIgs setup. ? This setup includes the computer itself, the standard issue >Apple monitor, a 5.25" floppy drive, a 3.5" floppy drive, a dot-matrix >printer, and a full suite of software. The software diskettes still sit in >their original boxes. ? The equipment is in perfect condition ??? neither a >scratch nor a crack to be seen. All is Apple brand equipment purchased at >the same time. > >The IIgs became a staple in classrooms around the country, and in American >homes. ? Its role as one of the first computers to be mass-produced and >integrated into education deserves special recognition. ? As a member of the >teen generation ??? a generation that has grown up with Apple and the IIgs ??? >this computer is a part of our history, and part of our memory. Just as >exhibits regarding the fifties and sixties make the baby boomers blush and >remember fondly their childhood when regarding tinker toys, Lincoln Logs, and >tin lunch boxes ??? and then remember Armstrong stepping on the moon, Kennedy >being shot, and King???s great words, my generation will look back at our >computers, and other electronic amusements, and wander back to a time we long >to remember ??? and yet we might not have such great men and shining moments to >draw an association to. ? Our technological triumph may be the only great >endeavor of my generation's childhood, but its effect will be long lasting. > >Use the Apple IIgs I offer you in an exhibit now, or store it for display >later, but please don't let it end up where it is currently destined: the >county dump. > >Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or assorted points >of inquiry. > >Sincerely, > >? - Josh Mendelsohn > >_________________________ >Joshua Marc Mendelsohn >3101 North 47th Avenue >Hollywood, FL 33021 >(954) 962-0505 >compnavi@aol.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Aug 16 15:56:36 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: I know that the control key on the DEC terminals stripped off the high order bit on the character that followed. The Control-G series would sound the bell on either the VT100 or LA34. the G character is an octal 107 Control-G sends out an octal 007 which is the bell All sorts of modem, printer, and terminal combinations used the entire ASCII character set. When we replaced our VT52's we found out you could send out series of cursor control codes on VT100's to move the cursor and then output a character. Early star trek games on video terminals used this instead of sending out spaces and characters. You could also plot line graphs and barcharts using control codes. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com Thu Aug 16 16:02:26 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? In-Reply-To: <20010816132102.F5064@mastif> from John Ott at "Aug 16, 2001 01:21:02 pm" Message-ID: <200108162102.f7GL2Qp02574@bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com> > Hello - > > I have a 29C, with recharging problems. I'm hoping the battery packs > are similar. How did you get the back cover on the battery pack to stay > on after you cut it off? > > On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 07:05:34PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I have an HP-21 and a 25C. For over 20 years, I've used a slightly modified > > > battery pack, modified only in that the individual NiCd's are removable and > > > easily replaced. This was done in about 15 seconds with an Exacto knife. The > > > batteries are easily exchanged if they go south, but I often use alkaline > > > batteries if I really need to, with no ill effects yet. > > > > > > Dick > > I just cut the plastic between the batteries enough so I could screwdriver out the AA batteries one at a time and replace them with the standard AA nicads. Bill From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com Thu Aug 16 16:19:33 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Aug 16, 2001 03:56:36 pm" Message-ID: <200108162119.f7GLJXI02623@bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com> > I know that the control key on the DEC terminals stripped off the high order > bit on the character that followed. I think that's just the ascii code at work here. > > The Control-G series would sound the bell on either the VT100 or LA34. > > the G character is an octal 107 > Control-G sends out an octal 007 which is the bell > All sorts of modem, printer, and terminal combinations used the entire ASCII > character set. > > When we replaced our VT52's we found out you could send out series of cursor > control codes on VT100's to move the cursor and then output a character. > Early star trek games on video terminals used this instead of sending out > spaces and characters. You could also plot line graphs and barcharts using > control codes. > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu Control-G is an Octal 0x7 AKA Decimal 7 and Hex 0x7... Control-H (backspace) is Octal 010 AKA Decimal 8 and Hex 0x8.. H is 110 Octal 72 Decimal and 48 hex. Octal 107 is a G... Octal 110 an H... >From the man page on this unix box Oct Dec Hex Char Oct Dec Hex Char 007 7 07 BEL '\a' 107 71 47 G 010 8 08 BS '\b' 110 72 48 H Anyone know what \a is? 012 shows \n (newline)a 08 shows as \t (tab) what's \a alert? Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 16 15:12:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: <3B7B261B.FD41959B@woa.com.au> from "Terry Collins" at Aug 16, 1 11:47:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010816/204ef515/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 16 15:50:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? In-Reply-To: <20010816132102.F5064@mastif> from "John Ott" at Aug 16, 1 01:21:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010816/478c7add/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 16 15:42:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Aug 16, 1 07:58:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010816/f2f658f3/attachment.ksh From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Aug 16 16:22:22 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: ; from mmcfadden@cmh.edu on Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 03:56:36PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010816162222.A5819233@uiuc.edu> McFadden, Mike said: > > When we replaced our VT52's we found out you could send out series of cursor > control codes on VT100's to move the cursor and then output a character. > Early star trek games on video terminals used this instead of sending out > spaces and characters. You could also plot line graphs and barcharts using > control codes. In fact, many things (like xterm) still support that. I use it to move the cursor to the upper-right corner of my screen, print the time, move back to the lower-left and display a prompt as part of my bash setup :) it works right in xterm and on most vt100-emulating terminals I've used... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From djg at drs-esg.com Thu Aug 16 16:31:58 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Question Message-ID: <200108162131.RAA07297@drs-esg.com> >From: "Will Jennings" > >OK, >How the hell do you tell if the thing is negative or positive bus? I need to >know this before I go and buy some peripherals... > If the lower rows have M650/M651 then it is negative bus. I'm sure your's is positive bus so you won't be going after the stuff I want :-). David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. Have any PDP-8 stuff you're willing to part with? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 16 16:43:16 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108162119.f7GLJXI02623@bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <200108162143.QAA00946@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Anyone know what \a is? > 012 shows \n (newline)a 08 shows as \t (tab) what's \a alert? \a alert Attempts to alert the user through audible or visible notification. Its from "man 5 formats"... -Lawrence LeMay From matt at knm.yi.org Thu Aug 16 16:56:21 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108162119.f7GLJXI02623@bg-tc-ppp1491.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Hi, [big cut] > Control-G is an Octal 0x7 AKA Decimal 7 and Hex 0x7... > > >From the man page on this unix box > > Oct Dec Hex Char Oct Dec Hex Char > 007 7 07 BEL '\a' 107 71 47 G > 010 8 08 BS '\b' 110 72 48 H > > Anyone know what \a is? > 012 shows \n (newline)a 08 shows as \t (tab) what's \a alert? I always learnt \a as "Audiable Bell" - I guess it depends on where you look tho :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Aug 16 17:16:15 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Big Iron References: <801c681f08.81f08801c6@ono.com> Message-ID: <3B7C462F.1020507@aurora.regenstrief.org> I would love to, but I'm afraid the 86xx series is too big even for my nice computer basement with the 110 V 60 A two phase line. It needs 3-phase and a nuclear power plant in your backyard. sigh, -Gunther Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > Is there somebody out there with space to get this "microcomputer": > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1625704207 > > Greetings > > Sergio > > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 16 17:39:37 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question References: Message-ID: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> All here with Mike seems correct. I think that the use of control codes was probably not a DEC invention though, unless DEC invented the video era (post teletype) terminal... Which leads to this question. Anybody know who invented the video terminal? John A. Mike McFadden said: > I know that the control key on the DEC terminals > stripped off the high order bit .. From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Aug 16 18:35:12 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B7C58B0.447BABA5@tiac.net> CRT displays have been on computers even before the program was stored in memory! I think the question is too broad for a simple answer. How do you define 'terminal'? John Allain wrote: > All here with Mike seems correct. I think that > the use of control codes was probably not a DEC > invention though, unless DEC invented the video > era (post teletype) terminal... > > Which leads to this question. Anybody know who > invented the video terminal? > > John A. > > Mike McFadden said: > +AD4- I know that the control key on the DEC terminals > +AD4- stripped off the high order bit .. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 16 18:34:28 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200108162334.SAA07145@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > All here with Mike seems correct. I think that > the use of control codes was probably not a DEC > invention though, unless DEC invented the video > era (post teletype) terminal... > > Which leads to this question. Anybody know who > invented the video terminal? > Impossible to answer unless you define the question much more precisely. For example, what is a video terminal? A video tube version of a printing terminal, with no cursor positioning? Or is it the first cursor positioning in a stand alone terminal? etc, etc. -Lawrence LeMay From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 16 19:24:29 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Some of the List Made the Mag. Message-ID: <013801c126b2$fc3bdba0$e8701fd1@default> Just picked up the Sept 4th issue of PC mag and several of the list members are listed in the articles on web sites to visit to study the history of computers. They call it a 'special collector's issue' because of the many articles covering the last 20 years and the next 20. I found a few nice bits of information and liked The Bad, the Ugly, and the Just Plain Dumb article by John C. Dvorah. Check it out. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 16 19:15:54 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <200108162334.SAA07145@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> The question at hand: > > Which leads to this question. Anybody know who > > invented the video terminal? At 06:34 PM 8/16/01 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Impossible to answer unless you define the question much more precisely. >For example, what is a video terminal? A video tube version of a >printing terminal, with no cursor positioning? Or is it the first >cursor positioning in a stand alone terminal? etc, etc. This used to differentiate between "dumb" terminals and "smart" terminals. However, many systems (even the PDP-1) often had a CRT of some sort attached to the main system that was eventually used to display some messages. Further, there was the plethora of "glass TTYs" that came out in the late 60's with the advent of TTL logic. So here are some specific questions that might be interesting to answer: Lets define a TERMINAL to be a cathode ray tube that displays characters and a keyboard input unit that communicates through a serial channel (can be coax, RS-232, current loop, etc.) 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first DEDICATED to operating a terminal? 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own buffer memory in response to a "control" code? 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and text? (either alternately or simultaneously) I'm guessing that the Lear-Seigler machines were near the front... --Chuck From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 16 20:27:54 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> References: <200108162334.SAA07145@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3B7C10AA.17878.C1052DC@localhost> Re: > So here are some specific questions that might be interesting to answer: > 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? > > 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first > DEDICATED to operating a terminal? > > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? > > 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and > text? (either alternately or simultaneously) 5) what was the first terminal to have memory "above" the screen? (I.e., some number of lines could scroll off the top, but could still be scrolled back later) (Probably HP 2640A) 6) what was first terminal with user-installable option cards? (Probably HP 2640A) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 16 20:43:09 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <200108170143.UAA12397@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > The question at hand: > > > > Which leads to this question. Anybody know who > > > invented the video terminal? > > At 06:34 PM 8/16/01 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >Impossible to answer unless you define the question much more precisely. > >For example, what is a video terminal? A video tube version of a > >printing terminal, with no cursor positioning? Or is it the first > >cursor positioning in a stand alone terminal? etc, etc. > > This used to differentiate between "dumb" terminals and "smart" terminals. > However, many systems (even the PDP-1) often had a CRT of some sort > attached to the main system that was eventually used to display some > messages. Further, there was the plethora of "glass TTYs" that came out in > the late 60's with the advent of TTL logic. > > So here are some specific questions that might be interesting to answer: > > Lets define a TERMINAL to be a cathode ray tube that displays characters > and a keyboard input unit that communicates through a serial channel (can > be coax, RS-232, current loop, etc.) > 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? Well, ignoring the peanut gallery's yelling about vector graphic type terminals, or oscilloscopes... or the dedicated console for mainframes, etc, etc... Fairly early examples are: 2/70 TEC inc. model 410/415, 420/425, 430/435 4/70 Applied Digital Data Systems (ADDS) Consul 920 5/70 Univac Uniscope 100 10/70 Hazeltine 2000 > > 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first > DEDICATED to operating a terminal? > > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? > > 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and > text? (either alternately or simultaneously) > > I'm guessing that the Lear-Seigler machines were near the front... Nope. The ADM-1A didnt come out until 8/73. -Lawrence (I only checked 87 terminal vendors, and probably this data doesnt include anything from the 60's) LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 16 21:19:42 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816191843.02482100@209.185.79.193> Is anyone on the list interested in SPARCStation 1's ? --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 16 21:54:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question Message-ID: <006401c126c8$383c86d0$c0769a8d@ajp166> From: Stan Sieler To: Chuck McManis ; classiccmp@classiccmp.org > So here are some specific questions that might be interesting to answer: > 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? In the late 60s I did use the H1000 (hazeltine) wich was glass tty. > 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first > DEDICATED to operating a terminal? That came in the mid 70s, later than some of the terminals that could do #3. > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? at least one example was the VT52, it had gotoxy and a few other controls but was not uP based. > 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and > text? (either alternately or simultaneously) I beleve the TEK401x and even the tube in the PDP1 (vector graphics) could do that. Likely predates standalone tubes. However the first serious graphics tube I encountered as a text/standalone was VT100 with line drawing or VT125 with regis/sixel and VT100 text. 5) what was the first terminal to have memory "above" the screen? (I.e., some number of lines could scroll off the top, but could still be scrolled back later) (Probably HP 2640A) This was implemented on the SWTP CT1024 many others did it. 6) what was first terminal with user-installable option cards? (Probably HP 2640A) H1500, Vt100, CT1024 and others. Allison From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Aug 16 21:50:39 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <200108161825.f7GIPJA62557@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "Aug 16, 1 11:25:19 am" Message-ID: <200108170250.TAA07564@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Is anyone running any internet connected lynx servers with dialup > > capability??? I've wanted to do this myself as many older Atari 8-bit > > groups would like access for email and newsgroup reading to stay connected > > with the online Atari communities. > > They're called "shell accounts". Yes, they exist as commercial > offerings. For example, Panix in NYC (http://www.panix.com/) and a2i > communications in the San Francisco Bay Area (http://www.rahul.net/). I'm trying to maintain a list, searchable by area code, at http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/shell/ Submissions and referrals gratefully accepted. Please note if Perl and Unix are on/supported by your provider, since this is important to me/some of my users. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- It's bad luck to be suspicious. -- Andrew W. Mathis ------------------------ From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 16 21:46:40 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <3B7C58B0.447BABA5@tiac.net> Message-ID: <001501c126c6$d7ee8e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > How do you define 'terminal'? RS232 or Current loop comm. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 16 22:05:29 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question Message-ID: <006d01c126ca$53b9a850$c0769a8d@ajp166> From: Lawrence LeMay >Fairly early examples are: > prior to this there was the H1000. >2/70 TEC inc. model 410/415, 420/425, 430/435 > >4/70 Applied Digital Data Systems (ADDS) Consul 920 > >5/70 Univac Uniscope 100 > >10/70 Hazeltine 2000 > >> >> 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first >> DEDICATED to operating a terminal? >> >> 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own >> buffer memory in response to a "control" code? >> >> 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and >> text? (either alternately or simultaneously) >> >> I'm guessing that the Lear-Seigler machines were near the front... > >Nope. The ADM-1A didnt come out until 8/73. There were many out there befor the ADM1A, When that one hit VT05s were around. See 1973 small computer handbook. The ADM1 was notable for several reasons but being first was not it. the fact that it was lower in cost than many and by 1975 avaiable as a KIT for much less made it popular. For me I'd been using electronic terminals for a few years by 1973 with the H1000, VT05 being notables but there were others around. Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Aug 16 22:34:27 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Upcoming Garage Sale Message-ID: <01081620342701.21568@seleth.bluefeathertech.com> Greetings, port-VAX'ers and CLASSICCMP'ers, I wanted to let you all know I'm going to be doing a one-day-only garage sale on Sep. 15th (Saturday) from 10:00 to 17:00 at 12641 SE 277th Pl., Kent, WA (southeast of Seattle). I'll be clearing out a bunch of VAXen and Qbus stuff, along with disk drives, cables, tape devices, test gear, etc. If you're local to the area, or going to be in the area, swing by. I never know when I'll be putting out something that someone may have been digging for. Thanks much for the small bit of advertising space. -- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77. "Plut? Ahh, Gribble Snort!" From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 21:23:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:27 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010815175019.02584050@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <328.628T50T2033467optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. Chuck, GO TO HELL! Or, to put it in a more civil way, YOUR PREFERENCES ARE IRRELEVANT! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 22:03:45 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108152325.TAA13079@conman.org> Message-ID: <3739.628T2250T2435999optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: >> >> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >> >> >I've always thought that one of the more simple assembly languages would >> >be a great 'first language' for someone wanting to learn how to program. >> >Who's with me? >> >> Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. > Depends upon the environment. Under AmigaOS you have RawDoFmt(), which is >part of Exec and available to Assembly language programmers (and it works >similar to C's printf()). Under MS-DOS you have INT 21h, funtion 9, which >prints a text string (ended by a `$'). But all you really need is a way to >print out characters, leaving printing of numeric values as a programming >exercise. In fact, writing a printf()-like routine (no formatting, just >stuff like `%d' and `%s') is fairly simple (6809 code): Now I'm glad I spent some time in PCDragon's debugger this evening! =) > ********************************************** > * PRINTF - a printf()-esque routine. > * Entry: X - ASCIIZ string > * U - user data stack > * Exit: X - end of string > * U - adjusted as data is used > * A - 0 > *********************************************** > PRFT50 LDA ,X+ ; get next character after % > CMPA #'% ; %? > BEQ PRTF20 ; if so, print it > CMPA #'d ; print a decimal number? > BNE PRTF51 > PULU D ; get value > BSR DECOUT ; print it > BRA PRINTF ; continue > PRTF51 CMPA #'x ; print hex number? > BNE PRTF52 > PULU D ; get value > BSR HEXOUT ; print hex value > BRA PRINTF > PRTF52 CMPA #'s ; print string? > BNE PRTF20 > PSHS X ; save current string > PULU X ; get new string > BSR PRINTF ; print it (oooh! recursion!) > PULS X ; get old string > BRA PRINTF > PRTF10 CMPA #'% ; print data? > BEQ PRFT50 ; if so, handle > PRTF20 JSR CHROUT ; print character > PRINTF LDA ,X+ ; get next character > BNE PRTF10 ; if not NUL, continue > RTS > > Now all that's left is writing CHROUT (or assume the system has such a >routine), DECOUT and HEXOUT (HEXOUT is trivial, DECOUT may make some work). >It's all a part of learning. But you've just served to prove my thesis. A PRINT statement like this will only scare the newbies away. I remember when I was just getting interested in computers, nearly ten years ago, when a computer magazine (the great DMz) had a feature on programming languages (you don't see features like that often nowadays). Along with a short description of each language, there was an example program which prompted the user for some data, formatted it and printed it on the screen. We all know what that would look like in BASIC, most would be able to whip up a C or Pascal program to the same effect, but the (m68k) assembly program occupied the entire right column of the page it was printed on. That certainly instilled a certain kind of respect for assembly into my young, impressionable mind. It was only a month or two ago, when a mate showed me how to make a silly little raster flash effect on a C64 in a few lines of assembly that it finally dawned upon me that it might not be all about black magic. No matter how easy it might be to make a PRINT statement in 6809 assembly, it's still a whole lot of lines compared to PRINT"HELLO WORLD!". -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till pdf2txt@adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 21:38:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <265.628T1750T2184915optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >Well down the list, though, come some well-known microprocessor assembly >languages. For obvious reasons... Please enlighten an assembly novice as to what reason that might be. Any particular cases to look out for? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 22:06:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010815184846.H6407-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <581.628T200T2463605optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >On 15 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Most assemblers haven't got a PRINT statement, so, no, I don't think so. >Sure they do. If there is no assembly language code that prints >characters, then how exactly does the BASIC interpreter do it? I said PRINT statement, Jeff. I know for crertain that there is no PRINT mnemonic in either 6809 or 6502 assembly. I've heard that Intel processors have rather advanced string manipulation features, but I haven't delved farther into that architecture and probably never will. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 15 21:34:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <650.628T250T2143931optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >>First language? No, I still think BASIC is best as a first language. And >>before >>I get yelled off the board, let me explain. Not all people are meant to >Foo, why not start people with Eudora mail filters and work up to HTML? HTML is no programming language, silly. You'd learn more by running a Cardiac, and besides, HTML is so flimsy that it can never be predicted in any whatsoever. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Zeit kommt aus der Zukunft, die nicht existiert, in die Gegenwart, die keine Dauer hat, und geht in die Vergangenheit, die aufgeh?rt hat, zu bestehen. --- Augustinus (R?m. Kirchenlehrer, 354-430 n. Chr.) From chobbs at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 16 23:30:58 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3B7C9E02.6940BBD9@socal.rr.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Yeah, and I always considered MTV to be one big marketing > outlet. At least I appear to have this in perspective now... What are videos anyway? Essentially, "commercials" for records and songs... From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 16 23:48:07 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <328.628T50T2033467optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <049f01c126d7$ced5d970$09c7fec7@bofh> > Or, to put it in a more civil way, YOUR PREFERENCES ARE IRRELEVANT! > Is it just me, or did anyone else just think, "Hey! It's Iggy of Borg!" *laughs* g. From jss at subatomix.com Fri Aug 17 00:04:38 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <328.628T50T2033467optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010816235421.I8561-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 16 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Chuck, GO TO HELL! > Or, to put it in a more civil way, YOUR PREFERENCES ARE IRRELEVANT! I find that statement rather hilarious, considering that you started this shouting match by so vehemently professing your own preferences. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 17 00:06:36 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Some of the List Made the Mag. References: <013801c126b2$fc3bdba0$e8701fd1@default> Message-ID: <3B7CA65C.796B3E72@internet1.net> I bought it a week ago. I was disappointed..... not even a single picture of a real PC, the IBM 5150. In fact, there aren't pictures at all, they are all drawings. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > Just picked up the Sept 4th issue of PC mag and several of the list > members are listed in the articles on web sites to visit to study the > history of computers. They call it a 'special collector's issue' > because of the many articles covering the last 20 years and the next 20. > I found a few nice bits of information and liked The Bad, the Ugly, and > the Just Plain Dumb article by John C. Dvorah. Check it out. From technos at nerdland.org Fri Aug 17 00:18:42 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <01C126BA.8E671F60.technos@nerdland.org> HTML isn't flimsy as a language goes.. The problem is the wack intrepreters. Each does something different, especially in the case of a broken document.. (Not starting a browser flamewar.. No, I'm not. Really. No flames. Shaddup already!.) Jim > > HTML is no programming language, silly. You'd learn more by running a > Cardiac, > and besides, HTML is so flimsy that it can never be predicted in any > whatsoever. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Die Zeit kommt aus der Zukunft, die nicht existiert, in die > Gegenwart, die keine Dauer hat, und geht in die Vergangenheit, > die aufgehort hat, zu bestehen. > --- Augustinus (Rom. Kirchenlehrer, 354-430 n. Chr.) From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 17 00:27:51 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3739.628T2250T2435999optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 16, 2001 04:03:45 AM Message-ID: <200108170527.BAA14614@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: > > > Depends upon the environment. Under AmigaOS you have RawDoFmt(), which is > >part of Exec and available to Assembly language programmers (and it works > >similar to C's printf()). Under MS-DOS you have INT 21h, funtion 9, which > >prints a text string (ended by a `$'). But all you really need is a way to > >print out characters, leaving printing of numeric values as a programming > >exercise. In fact, writing a printf()-like routine (no formatting, just > >stuff like `%d' and `%s') is fairly simple (6809 code): > > Now I'm glad I spent some time in PCDragon's debugger this evening! =) Is the PCDragon a 6809 based computer? And if so, did my routine work? 8-) [ 6809 printf()-esque routine deleted ] > But you've just served to prove my thesis. A PRINT statement like this will > only scare the newbies away. And that's bad how? If you can't hack Assembly, then you probably shouldn't consider a career in programming. I was 15 when I got my first computer (Tandy Color Computer, 16K RAM, tape storage) and 16 when I finally got an assembler for it (EDTASM) and started learning 6809 assembly. > It was only a month or two ago, when a mate showed me how to make a silly > little raster flash effect on a C64 in a few lines of assembly that it finally > dawned upon me that it might not be all about black magic. > No matter how easy it might be to make a PRINT statement in 6809 assembly, > it's still a whole lot of lines compared to PRINT"HELLO WORLD!". If you want simple, then for a Color Computer, this will work: ORG $0500 FCC 'HELLO WORLD!' END And when loaded, you'll see ``HELLO WORLD!'' about halfway down the screen. I don't get no simpler than that! ``Look Ma! No instructions!'' -spc (Printing is trival compared to writing graphics primitives ... ) From jss at subatomix.com Fri Aug 17 00:39:51 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <581.628T200T2463605optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010817003557.A8561-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 16 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > I said PRINT statement, Jeff. I know for crertain that there is no PRINT > mnemonic in either 6809 or 6502 assembly. Ok, I'll give you that. Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Aug 17 01:00:27 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006401c126c8$383c86d0$c0769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3B7CB2FB.B6023C9A@tinyworld.co.uk> ajp166 wrote: > > Chuck wrote: > > > > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? > > at least one example was the VT52, it had gotoxy and a few other > controls but was not uP based. The VT05 also had gotoxy, called CAD. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 01:24:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <002901c12677$4ecb3af0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: <452.629T2850T4446763optimus@canit.se> Curt Vendel skrev: >Is anyone running any internet connected lynx servers with dialup >capability??? I've wanted to do this myself as many older Atari 8-bit >groups would like access for email and newsgroup reading to stay connected >with the online Atari communities. If your ISP doesn't offer that, ditch it! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 01:27:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108160113.SAA08746@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <547.629T1000T4474269optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >Besides, why not steal such stuff from BASIC ROM? On the C64, print a string >from memory by setting A/Y to the localtion and jsr $ab1e, and use the >routine at $bdcd that LIST uses to print line numbers for 16-bit unsigned >int. By all means, but then you're just programming BASIC in an awkward way. BASIC has a print statement, assembly has not. OTOH, neither does C. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Jag ?r 35 ?r och citerar planetens och v?rldshistoriens b?sta anime hur mycket jag vill, bl?jbarn." ?ke Rosenius From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 01:54:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <1237.629T1950T4745931optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> Programming contests are another deal. They're just about academic >> programming. Demos are more like MTV on a computer screen. >Yeah, and I always considered MTV to be one big marketing >outlet. At least I appear to have this in perspective now... I don't care for MTV, and I share your opinion of it. >I've always believed that consumers should research the products they >purchase, and that a good product will sell itself. Marketing merely >raises the ultimate costs of a product, so perhaps you'll understand >why I don't have a very high opinion of it. Or of a generation or >programmers who rose to serve marketing's needs. You still don't get it. Demos have no marketing relevance whatsoever. They're done just for the fun of it, and the prestige. They don't fulfill any needs and don't claim to do it. I don't even see why I'm trying to explain to you, you don't even seem to read what I write. The generations of programmers who really rose to marketing needs were the ones before the microcomputing boom. They really had no choice. The younger generations could do it at home for the fun of it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86. From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 17 02:12:28 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <547.629T1000T4474269optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 17, 2001 07:27:20 AM Message-ID: <200108170712.DAA14697@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Cameron Kaiser skrev: > > >Besides, why not steal such stuff from BASIC ROM? On the C64, print a string > >from memory by setting A/Y to the localtion and jsr $ab1e, and use the > >routine at $bdcd that LIST uses to print line numbers for 16-bit unsigned > >int. > > By all means, but then you're just programming BASIC in an awkward way. BASIC > has a print statement, assembly has not. OTOH, neither does C. =) It really depends upon what you mean by ``print statement.'' Yes, the language specification for BASIC (whatever specification exists) does include a language element called ``PRINT'' (just as Pascal has WRITE and WRITELN) and technically, the C language doesn't have such an element. But ... and this is the crucial part here ... if you are programming under ANSI C (and most C compilers, if not all, in active use today) you have the Standard C Library (if it doesn't come with an implementation of the Standard C Library, it can't be considered an ANSI C compiler), of which you then have the library function printf(). And yes, if you consider ANSI C as a whole, then it *does* have a language element for printing; it just happens to be written in C [1]. Now, whether you actually *use* the Standard C Library is up to you. But for starting out, you can consider C having a language element for printing [2]. Now, getting back to your assertion that Assembly has no print statement---that's a straw man if I ever saw one. It really depends upon the platform you are programming for if there is a system facility for printing. On the Amiga, you have RawDoFmt() (or rather, _LVORawDoFmt(a6) where a6 contains the Exec library base address) for printing purposes, and it's flexible enough to print to files, the screen, memory, serial port, parallel port, or where ever you want the data to go: move.w #32,-(a7) pea name(pc) lea msg(pc),a0 move.l a7,a1 lea stuffChar(pc),a2 lea buffer(pc),a3 move.l _execbase,a6 jsr _LVORawDoFmt(a6) add.w #10,a7 ... stuffChar move.b d0,(a3)+ rts ... name dc.b 'Sean Conner',0 msg dc.b 'Hi, I am %s and I am %d years old',0 buffer dcb.b 4096,0 Under Unix, you actually have access to the Standard C Library for assembly programming (you just link it in). So there, you can do (for an Intel based Unix, using Nasm): push dword #34 push dword #name push dword #msg call _printf add esp,12 name db 'Sean Conner',0 msg db 'Hi, I am %s and I am %d years old',0 Not exactly rocket science here. And you might say that you're just programming AmigaOS or Unix in an awkward way, but no matter what, if you're not used to Assembly, it's going to look awkward. And you don't learn assembly in a vaccum---you learn for a particular chip on a particular system and you will generally have documentation for doing I/O. You might not have formatted I/O, but you can generally do I/O and part and parcel of learning assembly is learning how to do things like divide/multiply by 10 (for decimal output), or give up on that and learn how to read octal or hex *real* quick 8-) From your messages, I get the feeling you don't like Assembly all that much ... -spc (I'll claim the Amiga code as on topic 8-) [1] The Lattice C compiler for the Amiga will scan the format string given to printf() and if it determines that it can be handled by the Exec routine RawDoFmt() (which doesn't support floating point or some of the more esoteric aspects of printf()) then that routine will be called instead of the Lattice C implemenation of printf(). Exec is written in 68k Assembly (or at least it was when I was activetly writing code on the Amiga) so that's why I mention this exception. [2] You can write your own printf() routine and it will mask the Standard C Library implementation, but don't expect your program to work, as that invokes undefined behavior. [3] You have to provide a routine that will be called per character to do the actual I/O, but that can be as simple as stuffing the character into memory somewhere, much like sprintf() in C. From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Fri Aug 17 03:27:02 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #690 Message-ID: Various people wrote: > CESIL (Computer Education in Schools Instructional Language), Ha ha, I'd forgotten about that one... I remember typing in a CESIL interpreter into the Speccy from some magazine or other. It was even slower than ZX BASIC though so I gave up on it after a couple of weeks.. > If the eight-bitters had booted into Pascal, perhaps things would have > looked differently? For me the immediacy of an interpreted language was what made it fun, and therefore encouraged me to find out more about programming. We were taught PASCAL and 6809 assembly in my first year at college, both excellent learning languages (one for high-level structured programming and the other for the low-level 'how a computer computes' stuff) - both were nowhere near as much fun as BASIC because you had to compile/assemble them before you could "do anything". A lot of the time was spent learning the language syntax ("why does it need a semicolon here" or "why does the opcode need to go at least one space in") rather than learning programming concepts, which I found a bit distracting. OK nowadays it's not a big deal to pick up a new language, but when I was just starting out learning non-intuitive rules about semicolons was quite a headache. Compare the possible pitfalls in here (what are INPUT, OUTPUT? why no semicolon after BEGIN and WHILE (TRUE)? why a full stop after the last END? what does 'while true' really mean anyway? etc) PROGRAM SayHello(INPUT, OUTPUT) BEGIN WHILE (TRUE) BEGIN WRITELN('Hello World'); END; END. when compared to this: 10 PRINT "Hello World" 20 GOTO 10 BASIC's appeal was its simplicity and immediacy. I don't agree with Wirth that it pollutes the mind irrevocably either, I mostly use C++ or Java these days and never have to use the much-maligned 'goto'. The only time I use global data is for the occasional acceptable (even trendy!) "singleton" design pattern :-) --al PS I guess my mind has been polluted though, I'd rather hack 68K any day ;-) From marino13 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 17 03:41:36 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (marino13@btinternet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? Message-ID: <3960994.998037696877.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> I would be but I'm presuming you're in the States right? > Is anyone on the list interested in SPARCStation 1's ? > --Chuck > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 17 04:34:39 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <01C126BA.8E671F60.technos@nerdland.org> References: <01C126BA.8E671F60.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: >HTML isn't flimsy as a language goes.. The problem is >the wack intrepreters. Each does something different, >especially in the case of a broken document.. Like they did with BASIC, MS took an already established language, twisted it to their liking and got people using their versions. It sucks having to check all my HTML code in various browsers to make sure it's still viewable on all. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cbajpai at mediaone.net Fri Aug 17 06:03:07 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816191843.02482100@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: I would be...keep us informed on details. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:20 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: SPARCStations anyone? Is anyone on the list interested in SPARCStation 1's ? --Chuck From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Aug 17 06:44:37 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? Message-ID: In a message dated 8/16/01 10:27:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cmcmanis@mcmanis.com writes: > Is anyone on the list interested in SPARCStation 1's ? > --Chuck Sure! -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 17 06:59:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225654@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > You still don't get it. Demos have no marketing relevance whatsoever. They're > done just for the fun of it, and the prestige. They don't fulfill any needs > and don't claim to do it. I don't even see why I'm trying to explain to you, > you don't even seem to read what I write. No, I trying very hard to grok this. Is this in the United States? What part of the country? It doesn't happen around here (Louisville, KY metro area), I'd have heard of it. Given the Internet, I suppose my world shouldn't be limited to a 150-mile radius, but in a way, it is. -dq From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 17 07:01:35 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816191843.02482100@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <001601c12714$9bffdb30$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:19 PM Subject: SPARCStations anyone? > Is anyone on the list interested in SPARCStation 1's ? > --Chuck I've got a shop here in Ottawa selling them for 9.99 CDN they also have ELX and EPC the price includes keyboard and ouse and he lets you load them up. I got one with full RAM HD and a second video card. I tried the ELX and the screen was very dark. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 17 03:23:11 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Compu ting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 16 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: [I don't wane miss RPN ince I baught a HP 48SX in '92. And I was very happy to find a HP 41CV. Complete with mag card reader, thermo printer, video interface, doc and in very good condition.] > there are 6 RPN [2] calculators > on the desk in front of me, and many more elsewhere... > [2] One of which is not an HP, suprisingly. What brand / model is it? Non HP RPN calculators seam to be really rare. I can recall a discussion about the first pure electronic calculator a while back. It was not a HP and it used RPN. That is the only non HP RPN calculator I know. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From vance at ikickass.org Fri Aug 17 08:07:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <328.628T50T2033467optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Actually Iggy, your preferences are more irrelevant to me. Chuck's always been polite to me, and I respect that. Peace... Sridhar On 16 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Chuck McManis skrev: > > >Iggy, SOME PEOPLE PREFER THAT THE NEW STUFF COME AT THE TOP. > > Chuck, GO TO HELL! > Or, to put it in a more civil way, YOUR PREFERENCES ARE IRRELEVANT! From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 02:08:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <1251.629T1800T4885837optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> But then is Pascal that bad? >Bad? Bad at what? bad *for* what? We were discussing beginner's languages and alternative to BASIC. >> Whenever I think of BASIC, and I don't think this applies only to me, I >think >> of a cosy 40-column TV screen on a micro with 64 k of addressable memory. >> Other languages just don't seem as cosy. Must be because of the >> environment. If the eight-bitters had booted into Pascal, perhaps things >> would have >looked >> differently? >Most likely you're correct, but then I associate BASIC with a full compiler >that could generate 132-column headered listings complete with symbol table >and assembly language output for each statement. I think the interpreter makes BASIC unequalled pedagogically. >And as for booting directly into a language environment, any old FORTH >programmers here? At one time, I thought FORTH would rule the world. Well, there must be some Jupiter ACE owners here. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 02:13:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010816091417.02dd7470@pc> Message-ID: <575.629T550T4933931optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >Oh yeah? When I walk into a new library, my first reflex is >still to look for the card catalog. :-) I can always impress (well...) youngsters by pointing out that I actually remember when there were only card registers and microfiche readers at the library. =) But frankly, I'm glad that card catalogues are no more. The terminals were an improvement, the PCs are not. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." -- m3000 From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 02:24:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B7C58B0.447BABA5@tiac.net> Message-ID: <769.629T300T5043433optimus@canit.se> Bob Shannon skrev: >CRT displays have been on computers even before the program was >stored in memory! And on some, it was one and the same. =) >I think the question is too broad for a simple answer. How do you >define >'terminal'? A teletype/teleprinter is the mother of all terminals, right? A video terminal does the same thing on a screen. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From vance at ikickass.org Fri Aug 17 08:08:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <20010816235421.I8561-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: Hear hear! Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On 16 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > Chuck, GO TO HELL! > > Or, to put it in a more civil way, YOUR PREFERENCES ARE IRRELEVANT! > > I find that statement rather hilarious, considering that you started this > shouting match by so vehemently professing your own preferences. From bill at cs.scranton.edu Fri Aug 17 08:14:39 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Classic stuff available. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816191843.02482100@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: I've got some stuff to trade for anyone near enough or willing to travel to pick it up. Lattisnet Hubs -- These are pre-10BaseAnything twisted pair hubs. Might even be a fiber inter-connect module or two. And a small handfull of transcievers. IBM 8570 & 8580 -- For those who don't recognize the numbers, these are PS2 Model 70's and Model 80's Ethernet cards either in them or available. There are even some spare MCA ESDI disk controllers. I think there's even an IRMA card floating around here somewhere. Which takes us to the next item........ IBM Connect stuff -- A Nevada Western coax to twisted pair patch panel and a bunch of baluns for the terminal end of the twisted pair. For running IBM stuff like 3270's or IRMA cards with 3270 emulation software over twisted pair. Ethernet Repeaters -- I also have a couple of AUI<->AUI ethernet repeaters. Actually, while I would love to trade for a couple of SCSI HVD to SE adapters or most any QBUS stuff other than Async Mux Cards, but I would probably just give this stuff away if no one has anything to offer me in trade. Otherwise, it is likely to end out in a dumpster as storage space is premium and getting short. I can arrange to take it to my house for pickup as I'm not usually in the office on weekends when I am sure people would need to come for it. This stuff is in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, PA area. Anybody interested?? -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Aug 17 08:19:24 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Altair32 News Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879D1C@MAIL10> Hello, all: Just to relay some great news. Theo has killed the last of the nagging bugs in the processor core (mostly flag-setting stuff) and has successfully gotten Altair BASIC 3.2 (4k BASIC) to run!!! I have some code to cleanup tonight and I'll post new sources over the weekend. Woo, hoo! http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32.htm Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 17 08:35:39 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: _before_ (kind of) IRC - was classic email... In-Reply-To: <575.629T550T4933931optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 17, 01 08:13:11 am Message-ID: <200108171335.JAA31582@wordstock.com> > > "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any > different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -- m3000 > I remember when you could chat online (in my case, Compuserve) with intelligent people... Umm.. And you only got 20 hours a month. :( Bryan From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 17 08:53:19 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Compu ting) In-Reply-To: <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010817085319.008f25e0@ubanproductions.com> I have an HP 20S Scientific which is a not rpn. At the time that I bought it, I would have prefered the rpn version, but they did not have one... --tom At 10:23 AM 8/17/01 +0200, you wrote: >On 16 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: > >[I don't wane miss RPN ince I baught a HP 48SX in '92. And I was very >happy to find a HP 41CV. Complete with mag card reader, thermo printer, >video interface, doc and in very good condition.] > >> there are 6 RPN [2] calculators >> on the desk in front of me, and many more elsewhere... >> [2] One of which is not an HP, suprisingly. >What brand / model is it? Non HP RPN calculators seam to be really >rare. I can recall a discussion about the first pure electronic >calculator a while back. It was not a HP and it used RPN. That is the >only non HP RPN calculator I know. >-- > > > >tschuess, > Jochen > >Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz > > > From taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil Fri Aug 17 09:31:56 2001 From: taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Romar TOY-11 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817102808.00a3be70@crystal.nrl.navy.mil> I have this qbus board that is a date/time clock. It was made by Romar Peripherals and looks very simple, does anyone have any info on this board? I would like to use it in a RT11 system to set the date/time automatically. It is based on a National Semiconductor 58167 clock chip, I think the board is set to respond to an address176600. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Aug 17 09:28:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: Classic stuff available. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be interested in an 8570-B??, if you have one, and I am close enough to pick stuff up. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > I've got some stuff to trade for anyone near enough or willing to > travel to pick it up. > > Lattisnet Hubs -- These are pre-10BaseAnything twisted pair hubs. Might > even be a fiber inter-connect module or two. And a > small handfull of transcievers. > > IBM 8570 & 8580 -- For those who don't recognize the numbers, these are > PS2 Model 70's and Model 80's Ethernet cards either > in them or available. There are even some spare MCA > ESDI disk controllers. I think there's even an IRMA > card floating around here somewhere. Which takes us > to the next item........ > > IBM Connect stuff -- A Nevada Western coax to twisted pair patch panel > and a bunch of baluns for the terminal end of the > twisted pair. For running IBM stuff like 3270's > or IRMA cards with 3270 emulation software over > twisted pair. > > Ethernet Repeaters -- I also have a couple of AUI<->AUI ethernet repeaters. > > Actually, while I would love to trade for a couple of SCSI HVD to SE adapters > or most any QBUS stuff other than Async Mux Cards, but I would probably just > give this stuff away if no one has anything to offer me in trade. Otherwise, > it is likely to end out in a dumpster as storage space is premium and getting > short. > > I can arrange to take it to my house for pickup as I'm not usually in the > office on weekends when I am sure people would need to come for it. > > This stuff is in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, PA area. > > Anybody interested?? > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > From rdd at smart.net Fri Aug 17 09:55:28 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: _before_ (kind of) IRC - was classic email... In-Reply-To: <200108171335.JAA31582@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > I remember when you could chat online (in my case, Compuserve) with > intelligent people... Umm.. And you only got 20 hours a month. :( It doesn't seem all that long ago that IRC was like that. Of course, can it not be said that IRC and other forms of on-line chat are, to be honest, a waste of time, and that mailing lists allow a group to exchange more information in a more efficient manner? That is, people can take their time composing messages and adding more relevant info. to them, then one has to do is quickly scan over the e-mail containing that info., so, information that may have taken an hour of one's time to obtain via IRC can be obtained in a matter of minutes via a mailing list. Ok, not "real time," but if one waits a while and then reads one's e-mail. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Aug 17 09:38:20 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing) References: <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <004001c1272a$43515d40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> National Semiconductors once produced RPN-calculatorchips that must have been used by cheap-low-end calculator manufactors i.e: MM57103 (Algebraic or RPN pin selectable) MM57104 (likewise) MM57136 (RPN Calculator ROM used with MM5782 CPU/RAM chip) Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 10:23 AM Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing) > On 16 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: > > [I don't wane miss RPN ince I baught a HP 48SX in '92. And I was very > happy to find a HP 41CV. Complete with mag card reader, thermo printer, > video interface, doc and in very good condition.] > > > there are 6 RPN [2] calculators > > on the desk in front of me, and many more elsewhere... > > [2] One of which is not an HP, suprisingly. > What brand / model is it? Non HP RPN calculators seam to be really > rare. I can recall a discussion about the first pure electronic > calculator a while back. It was not a HP and it used RPN. That is the > only non HP RPN calculator I know. > -- > > > > tschuess, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 17 10:04:20 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: _before_ (kind of) IRC - was classic email... In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Aug 17, 01 10:55:28 am Message-ID: <200108171504.LAA16528@wordstock.com> > > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > I remember when you could chat online (in my case, Compuserve) with > > intelligent people... Umm.. And you only got 20 hours a month. :( > > It doesn't seem all that long ago that IRC was like that. Of course, > can it not be said that IRC and other forms of on-line chat are, to be > honest, a waste of time, and that mailing lists allow a group to > exchange more information in a more efficient manner? That is, people > can take their time composing messages and adding more relevant > info. to them, then one has to do is quickly scan over the e-mail > containing that info., so, information that may have taken an hour of > one's time to obtain via IRC can be obtained in a matter of minutes > via a mailing list. Ok, not "real time," but if one waits a while and > then reads one's e-mail. > I can see your point in using mailing lists to get information... For me chatting online was more to meet people online, talk and hang out. Bryan From dogas at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 17 10:03:29 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: _before_ (kind of) IRC - was classic email... References: <200108171335.JAA31582@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001f01c1272e$1b3e4850$0119d7d1@DOMAIN> > I remember when you could chat online (in my case, Compuserve) with > intelligent people... Umm.. And you only got 20 hours a month. I remember TALK and CONFER on UGA's CDC 6600 that kept a loose cadre of hackers and students chatting around the state circa '81. Heh... my adolescent cybersex days. ;) ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 17 10:21:55 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #690 References: Message-ID: <007801c12730$59d17fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Alan Pearson wrote: > PROGRAM SayHello(INPUT, OUTPUT) > BEGIN > WHILE (TRUE) > BEGIN > WRITELN('Hello World'); > END; > END. I think what you wanted to say was this: PROGRAM SayHello(OUTPUT); BEGIN WRITELN('Hello World'); END. John A. From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Aug 17 10:20:44 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: DECserver 90M fault codes Message-ID: <20010817102044.Z6157@mrbill.net> I've got the manual, but it doesent go into detail about the fault/failure codes. I dont have a console terminal or ethernet connection hooked up to this yet - but when power is applied, it goes through the self-test, lighting up 8 7 6 5 4 3, then those LEDs blink, 2 and 1 are dark, and only the POWER LED is lit otherwise. Anybody know what this means, exactly? Is this a paperweight? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ojw at dircon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 10:47:30 2001 From: ojw at dircon.co.uk (ojw@dircon.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: tape drive question Message-ID: <200108171547.QAA63383@mailhost1.dircon.co.uk> Hi. Having recently been the happy recipient of an HP 7978 tape drive I have set about the task of finding new blank tapes for it. Not too difficult until faced with the embarrassing question of whether my tapes need to be Wright Line seal or Easy Load (Auto Load ?). My vintage magnetic media experience doesn't go much beyond 8 inch disks, so I wondered if anyone could please give me some hints on how to answer this. (Of course I haven't got any manuals). Thanks in advance. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 17 10:51:01 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: DECserver 90M fault codes In-Reply-To: <20010817102044.Z6157@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Aug 17, 2001 10:20:44 AM Message-ID: <200108171551.f7HFp1n29982@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I've got the manual, but it doesent go into detail about the > fault/failure codes. > > I dont have a console terminal or ethernet connection hooked up > to this yet - but when power is applied, it goes through the > self-test, lighting up 8 7 6 5 4 3, then those LEDs blink, 2 and 1 > are dark, and only the POWER LED is lit otherwise. > > Anybody know what this means, exactly? Is this a paperweight? I don't remember the exact pattern, but I get a fault code on the LEDs of my 90M when there is not Ethernet connection. The best way to tell, of course, is to connect a console terminal and watch the output. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 17 10:52:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #690 In-Reply-To: from "John Allain" at Aug 17, 2001 11:21:55 AM Message-ID: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > PROGRAM SayHello(INPUT, OUTPUT) > > BEGIN > > WHILE (TRUE) > > BEGIN > > WRITELN('Hello World'); > > END; > > END. > > I think what you wanted to say was this: > PROGRAM SayHello(OUTPUT); > BEGIN > WRITELN('Hello World'); > END. The BASIC program printed "Hello World" over and over, so the WHILE loop is used do the same thing in the Pascal program. Your program just prints "Hello World" once. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 17 11:06:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <001501c126c6$d7ee8e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: > > How do you define 'terminal'? > RS232 or Current loop comm. ASR Selectric Silent 700 (maybe it was a different portable printing terminal with built-in acoustic modem that a friend was using in 1970) all preceded CRT. Mixed text and graphics? We had a special typeball that we used on Selectric (mostly with APL) for drawing graphs. Option cards? How about type balls -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com Fri Aug 17 11:08:41 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: tape drive question In-Reply-To: <200108171547.QAA63383@mailhost1.dircon.co.uk> from "ojw@dircon.co.uk" at "Aug 17, 2001 03:47:30 pm" Message-ID: <200108171608.f7HG8ft06554@bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com> > Hi. Having recently been the happy recipient of an HP 7978 tape drive I have > set about the task of finding new blank tapes for it. Not too difficult > until faced with the embarrassing question of whether my tapes need to be > Wright Line seal or Easy Load (Auto Load ?). My vintage magnetic media > experience doesn't go much beyond 8 inch disks, so I wondered if anyone could > please give me some hints on how to answer this. (Of course I haven't got > any manuals). Thanks in advance. IIRC I think these are the flat frontload drives like the ones Pyramid used. I don't think it matters with those drives since the tape seal must be removed to load them. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com Fri Aug 17 11:12:56 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? In-Reply-To: <001601c12714$9bffdb30$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from Mike Kenzie at "Aug 17, 2001 08:01:35 am" Message-ID: <200108171612.f7HGCu006630@bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck McManis" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:19 PM > Subject: SPARCStations anyone? > > > > Is anyone on the list interested in SPARCStation 1's ? > > --Chuck > > I've got a shop here in Ottawa selling them for 9.99 CDN they also > have ELX and EPC the price includes keyboard and ouse and he lets you > load them up. I got one with full RAM HD and a second video card. > > I tried the ELX and the screen was very dark. I've got a nice one (SLC I think) here... I added 64mb (4 16mb) of 72 pin parity simms and it works great if anyone's interested in a sparc in a mono monitor. I've also got an IPX (64mb of memory) available if anyone's interested. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jss at subatomix.com Fri Aug 17 11:41:01 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #690 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010817112147.I9896-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > > the much-maligned 'goto'. Fooey! Goto is not intrinsically bad. It's like nuclear fission; it can do some really cool things and some really bad things, all depending on the wielder. I frequently find C's goto useful for concentrating error-handling code in a block at the end of a function. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Aug 17 11:46:03 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? Message-ID: <40.fc9d96c.28aea44b@aol.com> In a message dated 8/17/01 12:21:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pechter@bg-tc-ppp389.monmouth.com writes: > > I've got a nice one (SLC I think) here... I added 64mb (4 16mb) of 72 pin > parity simms and it works great if anyone's interested in a sparc in > a mono monitor. > > I've also got an IPX (64mb of memory) available if anyone's interested. > > Bill Heck yeah Bill! -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 17 11:46:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225661@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >> But then is Pascal that bad? > > >Bad? Bad at what? bad *for* what? > > We were discussing beginner's languages and alternative to BASIC. I do think it's less likely for someone to pick up bad programming habits if they start with Pascal, but that's not an absolute, just a probability thing. > I think the interpreter makes BASIC unequalled pedagogically. If you like the immediacy of the interpreter environment, you should try programming in Smalltalk-80. Typing an expression, selecting it, and choosing DO IT (or PRINT IT) from the context menu is almost as fast as ?"This is a test" -dq From rdd at smart.net Fri Aug 17 12:15:48 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #690 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > We were taught PASCAL and 6809 assembly in my first year at college, both [...] > Compare the possible pitfalls in here (what are INPUT, OUTPUT? why no > semicolon after BEGIN and WHILE (TRUE)? why a full stop after the last END? > what does 'while true' really mean anyway? etc) It never made sense to me why they continued using Pascal after Modula-2 came out, as it's much more straightforward, and is great for writing large programs. Ok, there's some additional work for programmers like the FROM statements, but that's no worse than C's include statements. For example, the following: > PROGRAM SayHello(INPUT, OUTPUT) > BEGIN > WHILE (TRUE) > BEGIN > WRITELN('Hello World'); > END; > END. Would become something like: MODULE Foo; FROM InOut IMPORT WriteLine; BEGIN WHILE TRUE DO WriteLine("Hello World"); END; END Foo. On PCs running PC-DOS, the really neat thing about FST Modula-2 was that one could write programs such as the following module. :-) MODULE Sound; FROM SYSTEM IMPORT ASSEMBLER; BEGIN ASM PUSH AX PUSH BX PUSH CX PUSH DX MOV DX, 1200 IN AL, 61H AND AL, 0FEH AGAIN: OR AL, 2 OUT 61H, AL MOV CX, 233 WAIT1: LOOP WAIT1 AND AL, 0FDH OUT 61H, AL MOV CX, 233 WAIT2: LOOP WAIT2 DEC DX JNZ AGAIN POP DX POP CX POP BX POP AX END; END Sound. The best of both worlds, what? :-) > BASIC's appeal was its simplicity and immediacy. I don't agree with Wirth > that it pollutes the mind irrevocably either, I mostly use C++ or Java these > days and never have to use the much-maligned 'goto'. The only time I use As one who had to unscramble and re-write some very lengthy BASIC code with two-digit character names and very, very, few comments, multiple statments on single lines, lots of gotos and gosubs, some of which actually went nowhere in the end when earlier changes had been made in the code, I can understand why the dislike for BASIC exists. BASIC is great for small programs, but not so good for other things if carelessly written. Of course, I can see where it helps some programmers familiar with such spaghetti code to keep their jobs, as replacing some of them may be difficult. Disclaimer: Having writen some obfuscated C code, I have no right to criticize the "spaghetti BASIC" coders. ...of course, as we all know, C is a more legtimate language than BASIC, since it can be obfuscated to a level far beyond the comprehension of BASIC programmers. ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Aug 17 11:49:18 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:28 2005 Subject: tape drive question In-Reply-To: ojw@dircon.co.uk's message of "Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:47:30 -0000" References: <200108171547.QAA63383@mailhost1.dircon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200108171649.f7HGnIu01119@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ojw@dircon.co.uk wrote: > Hi. Having recently been the happy recipient of an HP 7978 tape drive I have > set about the task of finding new blank tapes for it. Not too difficult > until faced with the embarrassing question of whether my tapes need to be > Wright Line seal or Easy Load (Auto Load ?). The 7978 doesn't do anything with the autoload seals so you will have to remove and replace them manually. Wright Line or similar seal is probably easier to handle manually and somewhat less brittle plastic too. The 7976 can handle autoload seals if present, but this doesn't really make up for the rest of the drive. -Frank McConnell From claudew at videotron.ca Fri Aug 17 12:13:10 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Amiga magazines free/trade Message-ID: <003d01c1273f$e3fe47c0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> More Amiga mags to donate or trade. These are all clean: Amiga Transactor: 89: Jan, Oct, April, Sep, July, June, Feb, March, April also Jun 88 Amigo Times : Issue' 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8,.1.9 Always looking for 8/16 bit micros or semi-recent SGI or SUN machines/hardware... Claude http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector From mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu Fri Aug 17 13:09:21 2001 From: mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu (Matt Wilda) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Dead PC In-Reply-To: <3B7A08BF.82551341@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200108171709.NAA29447@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Well, I've been busy for the past few days, but today I finally had time to sit down and mess with it. It turns out the problem was that Six Pak card. I pulled it out and reseated it and now it works just fine. > Oh Wow, I didn't recognize your name until you said that! Sorry to hear > your having trouble with it. Remind me what cards are in it? I get the > PC and XT's I owned all mixed up. > > I think I had an AST Six Pak Plus in it, if it's still installed, make > sure all the memory in that card is still seated too. > > I remember having a hard time bringing the computer up one time. I > think all I did was push down on the memory chips to get it reliable > again. Since this much time has passed, it might be a good idea to pull > the socketed ram chips and clean them. I have heard of some Apple // > guys using some sort of cleaner on chips.... I think it was something > like TarnX, or something found at the grocery store. Maybe Tony could > recommend something, too. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > Matt Wilda wrote: > > > I sold the PC on Ebay after I was tired of it. > > > > Yeah, I'm the guy that bought it :-) This is your old PC. BTW, a friend of mine was able to get me another monitor for it. > > > > I'll try messing with it a little more this afternoon. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Aug 17 12:26:21 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: _before_ (kind of) IRC - was classic email... In-Reply-To: <200108171335.JAA31582@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 17-Aug-2001 Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is >> any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with >> you." >> -- m3000 >> > > I remember when you could chat online (in my case, Compuserve) with > intelligent people... Umm.. And you only got 20 hours a month. :( There are still intelligent people on IRC and other chat systems. It's just very hard to find them. I gave up on IRC for many years, until I discovered #perl on EFnet (which has since moved to Magnet). I learned a lot about perl there, met some very cool folks. We have that ellusive "community" that the 'net was supposed to give us. But I agree that most of IRC is painful. -Philip From rdd at smart.net Fri Aug 17 12:49:23 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3B7C9E02.6940BBD9@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, charles hobbs wrote: > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Yeah, and I always considered MTV to be one big marketing > > outlet. At least I appear to have this in perspective now... > > What are videos anyway? Essentially, "commercials" for records and > songs... Commercials? How does that encourage someone to purchase something? One can just turn om the VCR, tape one's favorite videos and then either make a tape or CD from the audio output. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 17 12:41:10 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: an odd question References: Message-ID: <002601c12743$cde95e80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Fred said: > How about type balls I believe for the Selectric, being IBM, they would be blue. John A. From jimoaks at hotmail.com Fri Aug 17 17:41:59 2001 From: jimoaks at hotmail.com (Jim Oaks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Amiga magazines free/trade Message-ID: claude id love to get these, ive not much to trade but would be willing to pay you for them. Let me know Thanks Jim >From: "Claude.W" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: >Subject: Amiga magazines free/trade >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:13:10 -0400 > >More Amiga mags to donate or trade. These are all clean: > >Amiga Transactor: 89: Jan, Oct, April, Sep, July, June, Feb, March, April >also Jun 88 > >Amigo Times : Issue' 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8,.1.9 > >Always looking for 8/16 bit micros or semi-recent SGI or SUN >machines/hardware... > >Claude >http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 17 12:41:42 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Hello World, I'm trying to restock a large (900W) UPS with batteries. Anybody have a pointer to a good battery site? Can car batteries be good for a UPS? Seems they are for high Amps, short duration, Might they also be good for general purpose? On a parallel track I'm trying to revive some old mid sized 6 &12V batteries, so the pointer would help. John A. No, 30 microvolts! --Dr. Beverly Crusher From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 17 12:58:06 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Dead PC References: <200108171709.NAA29447@uni02wi.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <3B7D5B2E.6FF6C771@internet1.net> Matt Wilda wrote: > > Well, I've been busy for the past few days, but today I finally had time to sit down and mess > with it. It turns out the problem was that Six Pak card. I pulled it out and reseated it and > now it works just fine. Good, I'm glad nothing really let go. Have you taken any time to install any software, or change/setup DOS? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From matt at knm.yi.org Fri Aug 17 13:10:37 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: _before_ (kind of) IRC - was classic email... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > >> "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is > >> any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with > >> you." > >> -- m3000 > >> > > > > I remember when you could chat online (in my case, Compuserve) with > > intelligent people... Umm.. And you only got 20 hours a month. :( > > There are still intelligent people on IRC and other chat systems. It's > just very hard to find them. I gave up on IRC for many years, until I > discovered #perl on EFnet (which has since moved to Magnet). I learned a > lot about perl there, met some very cool folks. We have that ellusive > "community" that the 'net was supposed to give us. > > But I agree that most of IRC is painful. IRC's not so bad :&) I spent far too much time on IRC myself... ...openprojects.net for one - frienly constructive place :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From curt at atari-history.com Fri Aug 17 13:14:44 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00e701c12748$7e1e2d40$c2609040@syzygy2> Many used Yuasa sealed batteries, the same used in alarm systems and motorcycles, you can pick up batteries from a local motorcycle dealer and smaller ones can be picked up at alarm dealers, I've never seen them there, but it could'nt hurt calling Home Depot to see if they stock such things, most likely not though. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Car batteries in the home? > Hello World, > > I'm trying to restock a large (900W) UPS with batteries. > Anybody have a pointer to a good battery site? > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? Seems they are > for high Amps, short duration, Might they also be good > for general purpose? > On a parallel track I'm trying to revive some old mid sized > 6 &12V batteries, so the pointer would help. > > John A. > No, 30 microvolts! --Dr. Beverly Crusher > From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 17 12:20:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225661@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I do think it's less likely for someone to pick up bad programming > habits if they start with Pascal, but that's not an absolute, just a > probability thing. Bad programming habits are either LEARNED or NOT CORRECTED early enough! My high school computer science teacher was a great TEACHER. He recognized early on that I had the makings of a good programmer and steered me into good programming habits. He was also a psychologist in a way: he knew that I, being a typical hacker type, felt I knew it all and would be resistant to programming in a structured approach. So he introduced it gradually. Over time he forced me into a structured programming model in AppleSoft BASIC. I didn't quite understand at the time why we had to document all our variables in REM statements at the top of the program, but in time it all made sense. Eventually he steered me into Pascal to cement the foundations he had taught us in BASIC. TEACHERS make all the difference! So it is imperative that you go out and find STUDENTS to TEACH! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From matt at knm.yi.org Fri Aug 17 13:36:25 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? In-Reply-To: <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: Hi, > I'm trying to restock a large (900W) UPS with batteries. > Anybody have a pointer to a good battery site? > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? Seems they are > for high Amps, short duration, Might they also be good > for general purpose? Surly leisure batteries would be better? Car batteries are designed to give approx 200A-500A (depending on size) for a few seconds - leisure batteries are designed to give lower currents for a more sustained duration (and have a higher capacity) > On a parallel track I'm trying to revive some old mid sized > 6 &12V batteries, so the pointer would help. Lead Acid? Hrm. The problem lies in corrosion of the lead plates in the cells. Not really sure your best plan of action - sorry. -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 17 13:46:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225664@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I do think it's less likely for someone to pick up bad programming > > habits if they start with Pascal, but that's not an absolute, just a > > probability thing. > > Bad programming habits are either LEARNED or NOT CORRECTED early enough! Semantics? Around here, "picked up" would include LEARNing, among other things... > My high school computer science teacher was a great TEACHER. I envy people who had the benefit of teachers whose skills were farther advanced than those of the students. No one could ever answer the questions I asked, so I realized I'd have to teach myself. > TEACHERS make all the difference! So it is imperative that you go out and > find STUDENTS to TEACH! I find myself in a bad situation everytime someone wants me to "show them"; I show them precisely as I learned, and they just give me deer-in-the-headlight look. As I said above, no one taught me, so I'm clueless as to how to teach others. Regards, -dq From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 17 13:48:39 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 17, 01 10:20:19 am Message-ID: <200108171848.OAA01227@wordstock.com> > > Bad programming habits are either LEARNED or NOT CORRECTED early enough! > My high school computer science teacher was a great TEACHER. He > recognized early on that I had the makings of a good programmer and > steered me into good programming habits. He was also a psychologist in a > way: he knew that I, being a typical hacker type, felt I knew it all and > would be resistant to programming in a structured approach. So he > introduced it gradually. Over time he forced me into a structured > programming model in AppleSoft BASIC. I didn't quite understand at the > time why we had to document all our variables in REM statements at the top > of the program, but in time it all made sense. Eventually he steered me > into Pascal to cement the foundations he had taught us in BASIC. > > TEACHERS make all the difference! So it is imperative that you go out and > find STUDENTS to TEACH! > I agree.. I first learned C in high school computer science on the famed ICON computers. But what made the difference was the teacher - she really knew her stuff! Bryan From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 17 14:26:49 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: Message-ID: <006f01c12752$8ff53d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Surly leisure batteries would be better? Thanks. The term 'leisure batteries' kicked off a search that is leading to some www answers, like here: http://www.bcaaust.com.au/battery1.htm Stationary, Starter, Traction, and Leisure Batteries > Lead Acid? These were of the "Stationary" type. I'm trying a quick 1/2 hour 'validation' charge (Test 1). If the battery balks (overheats or delivers next to nothing) it's tossed for the next one. Test 2 is a constant charge while monitoring the V increase every 1/2 hour. If it plateaus it is also tossed. I'm going on intuition though. John A. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 17 14:32:59 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: DECMux 300?!? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817123147.01f910f0@209.185.79.193> What the heck is a DECMUX 300? I thought it was a DECServer 200/MC when I pulled it off the pallet but no, it wasn't. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 17 14:39:24 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? In-Reply-To: <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817123748.01fb92a0@209.185.79.193> Car batteries are not good for a UPS because they are not "deep cycle" batteries (that is they don't expect to be drained all the way to zero, which damages them) I built a UPS for my wife out of a couple of deep cycle marine batteries and a 600W inverter. We've got a solar panel that keeps it topped off. Can run the laptop for days ... --Chuck At 01:41 PM 8/17/01 -0400, you wrote: > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Aug 17 14:19:38 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? In-Reply-To: <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > I'm trying to restock a large (900W) UPS with batteries. > Anybody have a pointer to a good battery site? > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? Seems they are > for high Amps, short duration, Might they also be good > for general purpose? Here in Socal I know a great battery site, but you would need some deep pockets to ship a battery, so why not give your general area? Car batteries are worthless for a UPS, they don't deep cycle well at all. OTOH most people don't use the UPS very often, so maybe that wouldn't matter. I don't pay that much of a premium for the correct battery (gel cell) so I don't worry about it. Having a regular car battery in your house could be VERY dangerous. I have thought about one in the garage a bit though. You don't have to walk too far down that path for a small gas generator to be much more practical. From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Aug 17 15:37:32 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? In-Reply-To: <00e701c12748$7e1e2d40$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: John Allain wrote: > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? I tried using deep cycle lead-acid batteries in a couple of 2KVA units. They were perfectly capable of holding up the UPS (be sure your UPS has adequate cooling -- some don't, on the assumption that the batteries will go flat before the temperature rise in the inverter gets out of hand). However, the charge characteristics of lead-acids vs. gelled electrolyte cells confused the hell out of the charger in the UPS -- it would routinely boil off the batteries. I ended up switching back to gel cells -- although I was able to find ones from Panasonic which were the same physical size but twice the capacity, which was kinda nice :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jss at subatomix.com Fri Aug 17 15:46:04 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010817153556.G10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > > > What are [music] videos anyway? Essentially, "commercials" for > > records and songs... > > Commercials? How does that encourage someone to purchase something? > One can just turn om the VCR, tape one's favorite videos and then > either make a tape or CD from the audio output. (1) Many (most?) people in the target audience either don't have the equipment or the intelligence to make the CDs. (2) The traditional thing to do, and therefore, the thing that all the sheep-people will be driven to do by their peers, is buy the CD. If this ever changes, you can rest assured that the record industry suits will do whatever is necessary to restore proper behavior in their subjects. (3) The audio quality of the custom CDs will be much inferior to the store-bought CDs. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rdd at smart.net Fri Aug 17 16:31:11 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Car batteries are worthless for a UPS, they don't deep cycle well at all. There's a new type of car battery that I saw a couple of months ago in an auto-supply store; I can't think of the name of it at the moment, but I seem to recall it being a sealed battery capable of deep cycling. From what I recall, it had a slightly oval shape to it if looking at the top of it. However, it's ratings are a bit lower than regular batteries: I think the largest one was only about 800 CCA, whereas my car battery is rated at 1,000 CCA. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Aug 17 16:10:59 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: VAX stuff in OH, PA, NY, MA, CT, RI Message-ID: <3B7D8863.90108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I'm going to go on vacation with a car driving from Indy through OH, PA, NY to New Haven, CT, so I'll be close to everything on the east coast. Will visit NY city too. Now the question is anything VAX going on there? Do you know of any places where one could go browse and may be find stuff? Anyone who always wanted to get rid of something but was too afraid to ask? :-) I am especially interested in finding an RA90 or 92 somewhere just so to pick up so I finally can actually run my VAX 6460. I can store and ship larger items too. If I could find a star-coupler or a TU81+ that would be super cool. Of course I wouldn't mind tripping over a nice 11/785 :-) There's got to be something on the east coast, right? thanks for your suggestions, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From red at bears.org Fri Aug 17 16:24:05 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: seeking junked VAXstation 4000-series Message-ID: Hi. I picked up a VAXstation 4000/90 for a song at a recyclers the other day, but it's missing some chassis parts. Does anybody have a junked VAXstation 4000 that still has its internal disk mounting hardware and SCSI cable intact? Those are the parts I need. Or perhaps even the little flap that goes over the diag LEDs in front. Will pay money. ok r. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 17 16:24:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722566A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Fred said: > > How about type balls > > I believe for the Selectric, being IBM, they would be blue. Postings are down, severe belly cramps again? ;-) -dq From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 17 16:33:13 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20010817123748.01fb92a0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <005e01c12764$8a91ac20$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Car batteries in the home? > Car batteries are not good for a UPS because they are not "deep cycle" > batteries (that is they don't expect to be drained all the way to zero, > which damages them) > > I built a UPS for my wife out of a couple of deep cycle marine batteries > and a 600W inverter. We've got a solar panel that keeps it topped off. Can > run the laptop for days ... I have a brother that runs his whole house off of batteries and a small Honda generator. He's putting on a solar panel soon. Check with the phone company, they replace the batteries on their UPS's regularly. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 17 17:50:17 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: DECMux 300?!? In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 17, 2001 12:32:59 PM Message-ID: <200108172250.f7HMoHp01217@narnia.int.dittman.net> > What the heck is a DECMUX 300? I thought it was a DECServer 200/MC when I > pulled it off the pallet but no, it wasn't. I think the DECmux 300 is a 8/16/32 port to single serial port multiplexor, usually used to multiplex several terminals over one high speed link, but my memory could be misfiring. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Aug 17 18:19:10 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market - again... In-Reply-To: <013801c126b2$fc3bdba0$e8701fd1@default> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010817191718.00aba5f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Well, I'm feeling pretty stupid. I left home without the directions to the MIT Flea Market some nice person sent me. Could I prevail upon the group to help me out again and give me directions to the flea market from, say, New Hampshire (coming down I-93)? Thanks again! -- Tony From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Aug 17 18:36:00 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Marketing (was RE: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722563A@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010817163433.00b93248@mail.azstarnet.com> At 07:15 AM 8/16/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I've always believed that consumers should research the products they >purchase, and that a good product will sell itself. Marketing merely >raises the ultimate costs of a product, so perhaps you'll understand >why I don't have a very high opinion of it. Or of a generation or >programmers who rose to serve marketing's needs. While marketing costs money that must be recovered in sales, if a product has a high volume in can be sold at a smaller margin and therefore cost less than it otherwise would. Therefore good (<-) marketing can lower the price of a product even though it adds to the cost. GZ From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 10:06:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225654@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <971.629T2600T9666541optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> You still don't get it. Demos have no marketing relevance whatsoever. >They're >> done just for the fun of it, and the prestige. They don't fulfill any needs >> and don't claim to do it. I don't even see why I'm trying to explain to >> you, you don't even seem to read what I write. >No, I trying very hard to grok this. Is this in the United States? I don't know, but I haven't seen any USA demos. You'll have to ask someone from the NTSC world. >What part of the country? It doesn't happen around here (Louisville, >KY metro area), I'd have heard of it. Given the Internet, I suppose >my world shouldn't be limited to a 150-mile radius, but in a way, it >is. There are parties in all of Scandinavia each year, as well as Poland and France. Don't know about the scene beyond there. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:28:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <403.629T100T9283817optimus@canit.se> Master of all that Sucks skrev: >Actually Iggy, your preferences are more irrelevant to me. Chuck's always >been polite to me, and I respect that. It amazes me how people who work with computers for a living have failed to grasp the most basic concepts of netiquette. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r v?rt enda reciproka pronomen. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 10:04:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? In-Reply-To: <001601c12714$9bffdb30$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <615.629T1700T9645241optimus@canit.se> Mike Kenzie skrev: >I've got a shop here in Ottawa selling them for 9.99 CDN they also >have ELX and EPC the price includes keyboard and ouse and he lets you >load them up. I got one with full RAM HD and a second video card. That's just amazing. Why are there no shops like that around here? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia." - Theo de Raadt From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:41:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108170527.BAA14614@conman.org> Message-ID: <2783.629T2850T9416871optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: >> >> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >> >> > Depends upon the environment. Under AmigaOS you have RawDoFmt(), which >> > is >> >part of Exec and available to Assembly language programmers (and it works >> >similar to C's printf()). Under MS-DOS you have INT 21h, funtion 9, which >> >prints a text string (ended by a `$'). But all you really need is a way >> >to print out characters, leaving printing of numeric values as a >> >programming exercise. In fact, writing a printf()-like routine (no >> >formatting, just stuff like `%d' and `%s') is fairly simple (6809 code): >> >> Now I'm glad I spent some time in PCDragon's debugger this evening! =) > Is the PCDragon a 6809 based computer? And if so, did my routine work? >8-) PCDragon is a PC emulator of the Dragon, which is basically a UK pendant to the Tandy CoCo. It's got a very nice debugger and integrated assembly development environment. I didn't test your code, though, since the PC is situated several blocks away. =) > [ 6809 printf()-esque routine deleted ] >> But you've just served to prove my thesis. A PRINT statement like this will >> only scare the newbies away. > And that's bad how? If you can't hack Assembly, then you probably >shouldn't consider a career in programming. I was 15 when I got my first >computer (Tandy Color Computer, 16K RAM, tape storage) and 16 when I finally >got an assembler for it (EDTASM) and started learning 6809 assembly. It's not a matter of whether you can hack assembly or not, it's a matter of whether you'll ever get into programming in the first place. Even my little sister could grasp PRINT, but most people will eoither fall asleep or run away scared if they see a piece of assembly the first time they're going to learn programming. >> It was only a month or two ago, when a mate showed me how to make a silly >> little raster flash effect on a C64 in a few lines of assembly that it >> finally dawned upon me that it might not be all about black magic. No >> matter how easy it might be to make a PRINT statement in 6809 assembly, >> it's still a whole lot of lines compared to PRINT"HELLO WORLD!". > If you want simple, then for a Color Computer, this will work: > ORG $0500 > FCC 'HELLO WORLD!' > END > And when loaded, you'll see ``HELLO WORLD!'' about halfway down the >screen. I don't get no simpler than that! ``Look Ma! No instructions!'' I assume you're just calling BASIC routines now, and I'm not sure whether that's fair play or not. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:59:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108170712.DAA14697@conman.org> Message-ID: <3807.629T1350T9595371optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: >> >> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> >> >Besides, why not steal such stuff from BASIC ROM? On the C64, print a >> >string from memory by setting A/Y to the localtion and jsr $ab1e, and use >> >the routine at $bdcd that LIST uses to print line numbers for 16-bit >> >unsigned int. >> >> By all means, but then you're just programming BASIC in an awkward way. >> BASIC has a print statement, assembly has not. OTOH, neither does C. =) > It really depends upon what you mean by ``print statement.'' Yes, the >language specification for BASIC (whatever specification exists) does >include a language element called ``PRINT'' (just as Pascal has WRITE and >WRITELN) and technically, the C language doesn't have such an element. But >... and this is the crucial part here ... if you are programming under ANSI >C (and most C compilers, if not all, in active use today) you have the >Standard C Library (if it doesn't come with an implementation of the >Standard C Library, it can't be considered an ANSI C compiler), of which you >then have the library function printf(). Agreed, you'll just have to tell the newbie to start each program with #include and that's it, you have a print statement. A macro assembler with a lot of useful routines included may not be that bad either, but I think it would benefit the newbie to operate the first few times in a protected environment, such as BASIC, just as children go to kindergarten before going to school. > Now, getting back to your assertion that Assembly has no print >statement---that's a straw man if I ever saw one. It really depends upon >the platform you are programming for if there is a system facility for >printing. On the Amiga, you have RawDoFmt() (or rather, _LVORawDoFmt(a6) >where a6 contains the Exec library base address) for printing purposes, and >it's flexible enough to print to files, the screen, memory, serial port, >parallel port, or where ever you want the data to go: I remember reading once that real programmers don't use the code of others. I suppose that might have influenced by attitudes about assembly a lot. [approximately fourteen lines of m68k asm snipped] That's still a lot more than a on-line PRINT. You haven't managed to persuade me. [much shorter Intel UNIX routine snipped] > Not exactly rocket science here. And you might say that you're just >programming AmigaOS or Unix in an awkward way, but no matter what, if you're >not used to Assembly, it's going to look awkward. And you don't learn >assembly in a vaccum---you learn for a particular chip on a particular >system and you will generally have documentation for doing I/O. You might >not have formatted I/O, but you can generally do I/O and part and parcel of >learning assembly is learning how to do things like divide/multiply by 10 >(for decimal output), or give up on that and learn how to read octal or hex >*real* quick 8-) > From your messages, I get the feeling you don't like Assembly all that >much ... I have the utmost respect for assembly programmers, and have had too much respect for assembly itself. It's only after nearly ten years of using computers that I've managed to see that it might not be as strange as I thought at first. I still think that if your computer boots into Microsoft BASIC 2, you're going to have a lot of fun with PRINT and INPUT for a while, but after that, you'll have to investigate assembly. That's a nice learning curve. Assembly for the actual beginner would be like throwing them in at the deep end to see who survives. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it! For the full details, check out . From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:34:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <01C126BA.8E671F60.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <511.629T1700T9345849optimus@canit.se> Jim Tuck wrote at the bloody top: >HTML isn't flimsy as a language goes.. The problem is >the wack intrepreters. Each does something different, >especially in the case of a broken document.. Well, the point of HTML is that there is no set rendering style, but that is also a stumbling point for the beginners. The wacky interpreters are the essence of HTML. [quoted .sig snipped] -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I use OpenBSD 'coz it has a cool blowfish logo. The other BSDs look satanic. - Anonymous Coward From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:26:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <20010816235421.I8561-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >On 16 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Chuck, GO TO HELL! >> Or, to put it in a more civil way, YOUR PREFERENCES ARE IRRELEVANT! >I find that statement rather hilarious, considering that you started this >shouting match by so vehemently professing your own preferences. It's not that it happens to coincide with my preferences, it's the simple fact that people need to use one style of quoting/replying or everything will be plain chaos. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:42:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010817003557.A8561-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <443.629T1550T9425427optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >On 16 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> I said PRINT statement, Jeff. I know for crertain that there is no PRINT >> mnemonic in either 6809 or 6502 assembly. >Ok, I'll give you that. Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT >statement? So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 09:36:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <685.629T2800T9366621optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>HTML isn't flimsy as a language goes.. The problem is >>the wack intrepreters. Each does something different, >>especially in the case of a broken document.. > Like they did with BASIC, MS took an already established >language, twisted it to their liking and got people using their >versions. It sucks having to check all my HTML code in various >browsers to make sure it's still viewable on all. The real crook behind this is none other than Marc Andreesen. He was the first to twist HTML into a sealed architecture for his own purposes. He's really the one who should be hung, and Netscape is really the Microsoft of the net. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:23:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <265.628T1750T2184915optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 16, 1 03:38:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010817/1c4e22d9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:31:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B7C10AA.17878.C1052DC@localhost> from "Stan Sieler" at Aug 16, 1 06:27:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010817/3ffb40cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:32:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: <001501c126c6$d7ee8e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Aug 16, 1 10:46:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010817/6479068b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 18:09:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Compu In-Reply-To: <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Aug 17, 1 10:23:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/bf64f90e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:58:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <1251.629T1800T4885837optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 17, 1 08:08:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1228 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010817/7b266eac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 18:52:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010817085319.008f25e0@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Aug 17, 1 08:53:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/9846b4b4/attachment.ksh From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Aug 17 19:56:53 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: free for postage or or toss Message-ID: VITALINK Translan 350 bridge. LAN interface: ethernet II or 202.3 Data link: V.35, DS-1, RS232, RS499 Data Link speed: 9.6kbs to 2.048Mbps Dimensions: 5.5in x 17.5in x 23.5in Weight: 32lbs, 14.5Kg (Motorola 68000 processor, as I recall) Includes two manuals and a floppies that worked to boot the machine several years ago. Software Version 10.4 Ref. Manual Gettings started guide. >From about 1988-1990 timeframe. -- From marvin at rain.org Fri Aug 17 20:00:32 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > It's not that it happens to coincide with my preferences, it's the simple fact > that people need to use one style of quoting/replying or everything will be > plain chaos. Your statement is also called "Form over Substance". "Chaos" is a frame of mind, and the simple fact is that using one style over another will not result in more OR less chaos. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Aug 17 20:27:48 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: free for postage or or toss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That was supposed to be 802.3, of course -- From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 21:04:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: This week's finds Message-ID: <1361.630T1600T1845053optimus@canit.se> A summary of what I've stumbled over in the past week or so: One ABC80. This one's been equipped with a TKN80 80 column kit. It also came with two datasettes. One interesting tidbit is that the keyboard is actually made by Keytronic. And the Z80 is a really pretty model, all white with very visible traces and the core mounted on top of it all. One Spectravideo MSX datasette, as though I haven't got enough of those already. One Atari 1040STFM with Notator dongle. I had to skip the monitor. One extremely hacked-up Amiga 500. With all the solder, broken pins, added sockets and switches, it's one hideous "Rock lobster". One Commodore VC-1520 plotter/printer. One North Hills MAU. It's surprisingly small. But isn't it supposed to have any AC mains? One BayTech multiport controller 525. What is this? It's a smallish box with five DB25 ports in the back. Each port has still got a DB25/RJ45 adaptor, which makes it worthwhile regardless of what it actually might be. A lot of electronics out of a can recycling machine, TOMRA brand. Seems to be VME, with a lot of useful Motorola chips. An AC adaptor for a Luxor VEC (Also known as a Fairchild, SABA, etc). Various Mac parts, including a video capture card and a MIDI interface. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 17 20:22:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225664@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > My high school computer science teacher was a great TEACHER. > > I envy people who had the benefit of teachers whose skills were > farther advanced than those of the students. No one could ever > answer the questions I asked, so I realized I'd have to teach myself. I agree, I was fortunate. But my first programming teacher in 9th grade was a boob. He basically competed with me on knowledge because I was already at least at his level of programming ability. We found a common ground in trading hacked software...some role model :) > I find myself in a bad situation everytime someone wants me to "show > them"; I show them precisely as I learned, and they just give me > deer-in-the-headlight look. As I said above, no one taught me, so I'm > clueless as to how to teach others. I'm talking mainly about kids, but anyone who is ready to be a programmer can be taught. But not everyone is a programmer. Those that get it are programmers. Those that don't are users, and should remain that. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 22:15:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1484.630T350T2554295optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I think the interpreter makes BASIC unequalled pedagogically. >I am not convinced. While the 'instant gratification' (you type a >statement without a line number and the result comes right back) might be >useful when you're starting out, it also encourages the 'modify at random >until it works' style of programming, rather than thinking about the >problem, thinking about how to solve it, and only then actually writing >the program. They'll have plenty of time to think about problem later. The prime objective is at first to actually get them programming. Making the computer write your name on the screen is an eye-opener. You can worry about good programming practice and all that after you've introduced them to the very first concept of programming, namely that of entering commands for the computer to execute. Everything is secondary to that. >Needless to say, I consider 'modify at random until it works' to be a >very Bad Thing! By all means. And sooner or later it won't work. >I've seen hardware 'designers' do something similar with FPGAs (and other >technologies that are easy to modify). Things like 'maybe it'll work if I >change this AND gate to an OR gate' or 'I'll try inverting that clock >signal'. Or 'Maybe I need one more state in that counter'. No real idea >as to what they should be doing, and why. As long as you analyse it afterwards and find out what made it work/not work, it's all right by me. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 22:17:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:29 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> Message-ID: <729.630T1650T2575647optimus@canit.se> Marvin skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> It's not that it happens to coincide with my preferences, it's the simple >> fact that people need to use one style of quoting/replying or everything >> will be plain chaos. >Your statement is also called "Form over Substance". "Chaos" is a frame of >mind, and the simple fact is that using one style over another will not >result in more OR less chaos. Sometimes being philosophical isn't everything. Quoting is one such thing. People have already established a pattern for us to follow, and I doubt that it was chosen without reason. 1 2 3 The above example is order. 3 1 2 Even a child will tell you that this is disorder, or chaos with another word. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 17 22:21:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1117.630T2150T2615651optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >The assembly languages I like are ones where the instructions and >addressing modes are 'orthogonal'. That is to say that any instruction >can use any addressing mode, and any registers. Like a PDP11 or a P800, >or to a lesser extent the VAX. >The ones I dislike are the ones with all sorts of special cases (the >destination operand must be in this register unless it's this mode, etc). >Or even that particular registers have special purposes. The more special >cases there are, the less I like programming in that assembler. I can just >about tolerate a special register called the accumulator without moaning, >but not much more. All right, I've really never looked into an architecture without an accumulator. >I am not going to name any particular chips, but I think that should >explain why I prevfer the 6809 to the 6502, for example. Because it's got more registers? I think the 6809 (at a glance) seems to have a lot more special cases and strange register uses than the 6502, which really is rather minimalistic. I suppose you like 68000, then, though? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From louiss at gate.net Fri Aug 17 21:27:01 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108180226.WAA11222@granger.mail.mindspring.net> On Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:52:36 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: #As I said, I find any calculator other than an RPN one to be very #difficult to use (and I make a lot of mistakes attempting to do so). #There would have to be something _very_ special in a non-RPN machine to #convince me to use it... # #-tony I totally agree with this. I bought an HP 21 when I was in college (the first calculator I owned, and which I stll have), and even today I have a hard time figuring out when to hit the "=" sign on non-RPN calculators. BTW, does someone know how to open the case on this calculator? Unfortunately, the battery pack leaked, and some repairs are in order. Louis From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 17 20:28:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not convinced. While the 'instant gratification' (you type a > statement without a line number and the result comes right back) might > be useful when you're starting out, it also encourages the 'modify at > random until it works' style of programming, rather than thinking > about the problem, thinking about how to solve it, and only then > actually writing the program. This is only the case if you are taught this way, or do not develop skills beyond this method of programming. The only reason we all (or most of us at least) drive cars in a civilized manner is because we are taught to do so. If it was up to us to drive the way we wanted, imagine the choas (and fun) on the roadway. > Needless to say, I consider 'modify at random until it works' to be a > very Bad Thing! One has to start somewhere! This is the best way to learn. Or did you just pick up a soldering iron one day and simply know what to do? I don't think so. Trial and error is the best learning tool. > I've seen hardware 'designers' do something similar with FPGAs (and > other technologies that are easy to modify). Things like 'maybe it'll > work if I change this AND gate to an OR gate' or 'I'll try inverting > that clock signal'. Or 'Maybe I need one more state in that counter'. > No real idea as to what they should be doing, and why. Granted, if you want to become an engineer, or in the very least a "professional", you have to evolve beyond trial and error. But as I said, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I would never start a student off in a rigorous, structured environment. What a perfect way to turn them off. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 17 21:45:40 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817193931.01fa4af0@209.185.79.193> At 06:28 PM 8/17/01 -0700, Sellam wrote: >This is only the case if you are taught this way (methodical), or do not >develop skills >beyond this method of programming. The only reason we all (or most of us >at least) drive cars in a civilized manner is because we are taught to do >so. If it was up to us to drive the way we wanted, imagine the choas (and >fun) on the roadway. Sounds like Italy (the driving anyway!) I do recall that when I learned to program in Fortran the school had a you send a deck of cards in that they would run and then you would get your results back. It did make you stop and think. Still I have to agree that teachers have a lot more influence than language environment. > > Needless to say, I consider 'modify at random until it works' to be a > > very Bad Thing! > >One has to start somewhere! This is the best way to learn. Or did you >just pick up a soldering iron one day and simply know what to do? I don't >think so. Trial and error is the best learning tool. My feeling is that trial and error develops an internal understanding faster than methodical analysis, however good designs do require methodology. In part because trial and error requires that you hit all possible errors, which as the system gets larger becomes less and less likely. >Tony Wrote: > > I've seen hardware 'designers' do something similar with FPGAs (and > > other technologies that are easy to modify). Things like 'maybe it'll > > work if I change this AND gate to an OR gate' or 'I'll try inverting > > that clock signal'. Or 'Maybe I need one more state in that counter'. > > No real idea as to what they should be doing, and why. You should meet Mike Kahn. He used an HP1600A and bascially started poking around inside a Nintendo to make it do mysterious things. It made for a very interesting VCF exhibit even if maybe only 15% of the people seeing it understood what was going on. I have to admit that I have, on occasion just programmed and FPGA to see if it would work rather than loading the simulator, generating a stimulus file, and methodically simulating the part before programming. >Granted, if you want to become an engineer, or in the very least a >"professional", you have to evolve beyond trial and error. But as I said, >you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I would never start >a student off in a rigorous, structured environment. What a perfect way >to turn them off. This is very true, let someone get a feel for just how wide open the choices are when programming and then introduce them to the most efficient way to get the results they want. --Chuck From terryc at woa.com.au Fri Aug 17 21:48:58 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for References: <200108180226.WAA11222@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3B7DD79A.A555C885@woa.com.au> Louis Schulman wrote: > BTW, does someone know how to open the case on this calculator? > Unfortunately, the battery pack leaked, and some repairs are in order. I believe it is like the 25, in which I just had to cut it apart (a seam is visible), then glue back together. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 17 21:56:12 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Aug 17, 2001 10:27:01 PM Message-ID: <200108180256.f7I2uCP01094@narnia.int.dittman.net> > #As I said, I find any calculator other than an RPN one to be very > #difficult to use (and I make a lot of mistakes attempting to do so). > #There would have to be something _very_ special in a non-RPN machine > to > #convince me to use it... > # > #-tony > > I totally agree with this. I bought an HP 21 when I was in college > (the first calculator I owned, and which I stll have), and even today I > have a hard time figuring out when to hit the "=" sign on non-RPN > calculators. What's so hard about a non-RPN calculator? If you want to do the equivalent of 2+2, you enter 2, +, 2, and =. For a non-RPN calculator you basically enter the calculation the same way you write it. If you've got a non-simple calculation and you've not a calculator with ( and ) you can use them, too (most reasonable calculators have them). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Aug 17 22:23:03 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B7DDF97.CF78932C@tiac.net> I'll bet on the Imlac PDS-1. Chuck McManis wrote: > The question at hand: > > > > Which leads to this question. Anybody know who > > > invented the video terminal? > > At 06:34 PM 8/16/01 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >Impossible to answer unless you define the question much more precisely. > >For example, what is a video terminal? A video tube version of a > >printing terminal, with no cursor positioning? Or is it the first > >cursor positioning in a stand alone terminal? etc, etc. > > This used to differentiate between "dumb" terminals and "smart" terminals. > However, many systems (even the PDP-1) often had a CRT of some sort > attached to the main system that was eventually used to display some > messages. Further, there was the plethora of "glass TTYs" that came out in > the late 60's with the advent of TTL logic. > > So here are some specific questions that might be interesting to answer: > > Lets define a TERMINAL to be a cathode ray tube that displays characters > and a keyboard input unit that communicates through a serial channel (can > be coax, RS-232, current loop, etc.) > 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? > > 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first > DEDICATED to operating a terminal? > > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? > > 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and > text? (either alternately or simultaneously) > > I'm guessing that the Lear-Seigler machines were near the front... > > --Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 17 22:14:54 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <20010817.222107.-127755.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:23:05 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >> The assembly languages I like are ones where the instructions and > addressing modes are 'orthogonal'. That is to say that any > instruction can use any addressing mode, and any registers. Like a PDP11 or a > P800, or to a lesser extent the VAX. That was the cool thing about the NS-32000's-- it was designed to be *very* orthogonal. I find it very sucky that good design is frequently hampered by crappy marketing. > The ones I dislike are the ones with all sorts of special cases (the > destination operand must be in this register unless it's this mode, > etc). Well, after having had to program one for a while, the Z-80 definitely fits into this category. I strongly suspect that parts from that era had these design aspects (e.g. orthogonality) limited by their die size. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From nerdware at laidbak.com Fri Aug 17 23:18:09 2001 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <004001c1272a$43515d40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <200108180420.f7I4Kdc04508@grover.winsite.com> Actually, they built their own RPN calculators. My very first calc was a NS RPN scientific, back in '77 or '78 when I was in high school. Probably explains why I love RPN to this day...plus it had the added advantage that nobody wanted to borrow your calculator. "Where's the equals key?" "There isn't one." "Uh, never mind. Here's your calculator back." > National Semiconductors once produced RPN-calculatorchips > that must have been used by cheap-low-end calculator manufactors > > i.e: > > MM57103 (Algebraic or RPN pin selectable) > MM57104 (likewise) > > MM57136 (RPN Calculator ROM used with MM5782 CPU/RAM chip) > > > Sipke de Wal > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 10:23 AM > Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic > Computing) > > > > On 16 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > [I don't wane miss RPN ince I baught a HP 48SX in '92. And I was > > very happy to find a HP 41CV. Complete with mag card reader, thermo > > printer, video interface, doc and in very good condition.] > > > > > there are 6 RPN [2] calculators > > > on the desk in front of me, and many more elsewhere... > > > [2] One of which is not an HP, suprisingly. > > What brand / model is it? Non HP RPN calculators seam to be really > > rare. I can recall a discussion about the first pure electronic > > calculator a while back. It was not a HP and it used RPN. That is > > the only non HP RPN calculator I know. -- > > > > > > > > tschuess, > > Jochen > > > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz > > > Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 17 23:29:15 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010817085319.008f25e0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010817232915.0085b690@ubanproductions.com> >> I have an HP 20S Scientific which is a not rpn. At the time that I bought >> it, I would have prefered the rpn version, but they did not have one... > >Just out of curiousity, what functions did you require that aren't in the >32S-II? As I recall (it has been about 10 years ago, or so), I just needed a scientific calculator right away (for some reason) and my previous rpn HP had worn out. I went to buy an HP and I bought the cheapest HP scientific that the store had, assuming that it would be rpn. Who would have thought that HP would make a non-rpn calculator. I got it home and found out the bad news. Why I never bothered to return it, I don't recall. >As I said, I find any calculator other than an RPN one to be very >difficult to use (and I make a lot of mistakes attempting to do so). >There would have to be something _very_ special in a non-RPN machine to >convince me to use it... > >-tony > > I like my 16C much better. That must be why the 20S still looks like new and the 16C is well worn... --tom From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 18 00:25:00 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: FS: Silent 700s and Trimm 19" rack mount box with slides Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817221206.022e6eb0@209.185.79.193> Hi everyone, cleaning out more stuff this evening and have unearthed a few things. Everything is in Sunnyvale, California, zip 94087. First an EXTREMELY rare Texas Instruments Silent 700 with Bubble Memory storage (model 765). These are very unusual because there was only a short period of time between when bubble memory was practical and the whole Silent 700 was impractical :-) The Silent 700 series are thermal printing, hard copy terminals. Works fine. $75 + postage. (Strangely a bubble memory unit for this thing brought $76 on Ebay a while back, go figure) Second, is a less rare but very nice Silent-700 model 785. The thing that distinguishes this terminal from the others is that it has real lower case letters (versus the original Silent 700's "short" upper case standing in for lower case). Works fine, $25 + postage. Third a very nice Trimm Technologies 19" rack mount box. This box has a full rack slide mounting kit (both the rails and the slides for the rack) so you can put it into a 19" rack, it is 4U high and has an opening in the front for a 5.25" full height peripheral (disk or tape). It also has the mounting brackets for said peripheral which will hold either one or two devices (you could, for example, mount a CDROM drive and a DAT drive above each other. Inside is a standard switching power supply with at least 8 "standard" power plugs for SCSI devices (4 pin disk/tape power plug). There are also two SCSI-2 connectors on the back, each connected to a long ribbon cable inside (reaches to the front of the box) to allow you to run dual busses. This is extremely useful on VAXen where you have one SCSI controller talking to a tape drive and the other talking to a bunch of disks. The power switch comes to the front and has a 'Highland Digital' logo on it. There are many strategically placed holes on the bottom for mounting additional disk drives or brackets for more stuff. $20 plus postage takes it, if you want just the rack slides I'll understand can send just those. They are the 40 lb ones (1" wide) versus the 100 lb ones (3" wide) If no one wants this stuff I'll probably put it up on Ebay. --Chuck From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 18 02:45:08 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <443.629T1550T9425427optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Jeffrey S. Sharp said: > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? Iggy Drougge said: > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could something different suffice? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 18 02:52:54 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010818025126.L10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > There would have to be something _very_ special in a non-RPN machine > to convince me to use it... What about a TI-92? It's a bit like a tiny laptop with Mathematica installed. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Aug 18 02:55:37 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> <3B7DDF97.CF78932C@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3B7E1F79.FA76E278@tinyworld.co.uk> [jeopardectomy performed] Bob Shannon wrote: > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > Lets define a TERMINAL to be a cathode ray tube that displays > > characters and a keyboard input unit that communicates through > > a serial channel (can be coax, RS-232, current loop, etc.) > > > > 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? > > > > 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first > > DEDICATED to operating a terminal? > > > > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? > > > > 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and > > text? (either alternately or simultaneously) > > I'll bet on the Imlac PDS-1. What year? Which of the four questions does this answer? From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 18 03:01:21 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <403.629T100T9283817optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010818024747.B10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 17 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > It amazes me how people who work with computers for a living have > failed to grasp the most basic concepts of netiquette. We know how you feel... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 18 03:01:36 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: Re: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <443.629T1550T9425427optimus@canit.se> <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15230.8416.804500.7540@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 18, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? > > Iggy Drougge said: > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > > Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could > something different suffice? This is an important point...It needs to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, otherwise it won't work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Aug 18 03:18:27 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com>; from jss@subatomix.com on Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 02:45:08AM -0500 References: <443.629T1550T9425427optimus@canit.se> <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010818011827.A27659@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 02:45:08AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Jeffrey S. Sharp said: > > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? > > Iggy Drougge said: > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > > Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could > something different suffice? I just wanted to mention macros. If the assembler can define macros, and if it can accept a string argument to a macro, then you could combine a routine (like a simple version of the 6809 printf clone already posted) with a macro that calls it. Then you really would be able to write PRINT "HELLO WORLD" or something with similar syntax. Or you might want to use the full printf clone and write PRINTF "HELLO WORLD %D",X instead. Using macros to create a full high-level language environment would be hard. If that's what you want, then a high-level language with embedded assembler (like BBC BASIC) might be better. But you could certainly make a nice medium-level language (between assembler and C). If the macro processor is powerful enough, it could check the number of arguments to the PRINTF, and even C doesn't do that. -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Aug 18 03:24:02 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <443.629T1550T9425427optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:42:31PM +0100 References: <20010817003557.A8561-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <443.629T1550T9425427optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010818012402.B27659@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:42:31PM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: > >Ok, I'll give you that. Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT > >statement? > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. Now, are you going to print that at assembly time or at execution time? Fancy assemblers can do input/output at assembly time. The difference is important. If you're taeching the subject, you might as well teach it seriously. :) _Really_ fancy assemblers can imitate a Turing machine at assembly time. Then your program can contain whatever you want (list of prime numbers, factorial, counterexample to Fermat's last theorem, etc.) and your code need not do any calculation at all. The risk is that your program may take an infinitely long time to assemble! -- Derek From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 18 07:29:13 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> <3B7DDF97.CF78932C@tiac.net> Message-ID: <016b01c127e2$3b1af880$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Bob wrote: > I'll bet on the Imlac PDS-1. Tom U's handout puts it at 1971. Another question: What form of communications did the Imlac use? John A. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 18 08:59:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003001c127ee$04c4f180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's cheaper to use motorcycle batteries than to replace the Gel-Cell batteries common in older UPS'. There's no reason that shouldn't work. I have an 800W UPS that came with gel-cells, that now has motorcycle batteries in it. The gel-cells cost $110 each, while the motorcycle batteries cost $36 each. It's not hard figuring out which I prefer. Now, there may be some hazards ... What kind of batteries are you trying to revive? I've got some old (1980) 6volt and 12volt types I've kept around since they were new. These get recharged about every two years, and seem to hold charge pretty well. Two of them are 6-volt GATES lead-acid cell types, with three pairs of cells in each one, while the others are sealed lead acid types. Both seem to like the nominally 9-volt 2-amp charger I got with the latter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:41 AM Subject: Car batteries in the home? > Hello World, > > I'm trying to restock a large (900W) UPS with batteries. > Anybody have a pointer to a good battery site? > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? Seems they are > for high Amps, short duration, Might they also be good > for general purpose? > On a parallel track I'm trying to revive some old mid sized > 6 &12V batteries, so the pointer would help. > > John A. > No, 30 microvolts! --Dr. Beverly Crusher > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 18 09:54:24 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: This week's finds In-Reply-To: <1361.630T1600T1845053optimus@canit.se> References: <1361.630T1600T1845053optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >One extremely hacked-up Amiga 500. With all the solder, broken pins, added >sockets and switches, it's one hideous "Rock lobster". Iggy, Any ideas on what they were trying to do? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 18 09:58:42 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I agree, I was fortunate. But my first programming teacher in 9th grade >was a boob. He basically competed with me on knowledge because I was >already at least at his level of programming ability. We found a common >ground in trading hacked software...some role model :) My initial programming started in a simple data-entry class. There was a section that introduced BASIC programming but it certainly wasn't a major part of the class. It caught my interest though and I was soon far ahead of what was being taught and was working on programs at home without a computer then bringing them in to type them in the next day. My Algebra teacher took an interest in what I was doing and offered help when he could. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From west at tseinc.com Sat Aug 18 22:11:54 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Paging Eric Smith or Al Kossow Message-ID: <002a01c1285c$b396eec0$0101a8c0@jay> Sorry to use the bandwidth folks.... I've been trying to contact either Al Kossow or Eric Smith for many months now, no responses to email. Anyone know if they are still around or maybe just have a different email address? Thanks! Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/c5753188/attachment.html From vance at ikickass.org Sat Aug 18 10:16:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: I believe my first program was " farted, and the shit stinks." Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Jeffrey S. Sharp said: > > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? > > Iggy Drougge said: > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > > Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could > something different suffice? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 18 10:22:26 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <003001c127ee$04c4f180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <000a01c127f9$b8f098c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > ... motorcycle batteries cost $36 each ... > there may be some hazards ... Yeah, you short out those guys and it's molten lead city. Wait, you'd probably like that. > What kind of batteries are you trying to revive? The ~3pound spade lug emergency lighting cuboids 6V 10Ah; Yuasa (NP10-6) and Panasonic (LCR6V10PA) I tried 12V 1/2hour. Most register 3V,10mA (no misprint) afterwards so they may all be toast. Only one of the Pana's got hot, as if shorted. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 18 10:41:32 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could > something different suffice? In the classes that I teach, I have abandoned tradition! Heresy! I used to get students copying each other's work for the "Hello, world" assignment. So, ... Now I make them write a program to put their name on the screen. I still get some people turning in other people's work!, but not as many. The FIRST assignment (and an important argument for why I would prefer to have students START (at least a week) with BASIC), is NOT to deal with important algorithms and data structures. It is entirely to deal with the concept of "what is a program", and how to get the tools (editor, source file, compiler, etc.) to work. The SECOND assignment can then get into something that is more of a challenge. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 18 10:46:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818012402.B27659@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > > _Really_ fancy assemblers can imitate a Turing machine at assembly time. > Then your program can contain whatever you want (list of prime numbers, > factorial, counterexample to Fermat's last theorem, etc.) and your code need > not do any calculation at all. The risk is that your program may take an > infinitely long time to assemble! That is a really fucked up thing to do to a beginner for their FIRST program. START with something so grossly trivial that they can do it with NO problems, and get a token success in their first attempt. THEN you can make them work in subsequent projects. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From at258 at osfn.org Sat Aug 18 10:54:07 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: Yes, it`s permitted to print "SOMETHING DIFFERENT" On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Jeffrey S. Sharp said: > > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? > > Iggy Drougge said: > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > > Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could > something different suffice? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 18 11:09:58 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Imlac PDS-1, was Re: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> <3B7DDF97.CF78932C@tiac.net> <3B7E1F79.FA76E278@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <3B7E9355.44F0F193@tiac.net> Paul Williams wrote: > [jeopardectomy performed] > > Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > > > Lets define a TERMINAL to be a cathode ray tube that displays > > > characters and a keyboard input unit that communicates through > > > a serial channel (can be coax, RS-232, current loop, etc.) > > > > > > 1) What was the first example of a TERMINAL (See above)? > > > > > > 2) When was a processor (micro, bit-slice, whatever) first > > > DEDICATED to operating a terminal? > > > > > > 3) What is the first terminal that could manipulate its own > > > buffer memory in response to a "control" code? > > > > > > 4) What is the first terminal that could display graphics and > > > text? (either alternately or simultaneously) > > > > I'll bet on the Imlac PDS-1. > > What year? Which of the four questions does this answer? All of them to some degree! Imlac PDS-1's were the first-ever 'smart terminal', and the first networkable graphics terminals, developed during the mid-1960's, and first introduced circa 1968. So the PDS-1 was commercially available around the same time as the first glass teletypes (question #1). For question #2 through #4... The PDS-1 is a dual processor 16 bit minicomputers implemented with core memory that was shared with a display processor. The display processor updated a CRT display using vector (stroke generated) characters. The characters themselves were totally defined by software so even the 'font' was programmable. In Imlac documentation, the minicomputer is sometimes refered to as the display list processor. This 'main' CPU also took care communication with a host system. This processor did not (normally) have general purpose I/O capability, and was 'computationally challanged' as compared to say a Nova or a HP 21xx of that same era so this is clearly a dedicated 'terminal control' processor, although it can run modest application programs as well. Some application programs were written that emulated other types of displays from simple glass TTY's to other graphical displays. This is a clear example of the functionality of question #3. Lastly, the PDS-1 generated all its text characters by short vectors, so mixed graphics and text was what the Imlac design was all about. In fact some of the first (the first) networked graphics protocalls were developed for the PDS-1. Imlacs are very interesting and historically signifigant machines, I'd expect them to be better known and more widely collected than they seem to be. I can only assume that this is due to their being somewhat rare. While I don't have any information on the numbers produced, its clear from looking at the hardware that the PDS-1's were essentially hand-made machines, targeted to a niche application in their day. Also, the PDS-1 is probably THE ONLY 'terminal' that came with an optional switches and lights programmers console. Early short-vector Imlac consoles look very much like a prop from the original Star Trek TV show, with a hint of the Cyber 205 console added for good measure. I have an early model Imlac PDS-1. The minicomputer section is up and running, and I'm working on the display and display processor section. I'm sure it will be fully operational soon. I first saw an Imlac at VCF East, and was impressed enough to 'have to have one'! Now that I'm becomming more familiar with their design and role in shaping what we know as the 'intellegent terminal' today, I've decided that these rare and special machines deserve preservation beyond what little original Imlac hardware exists. I am aware of an Imlac emulator program under development, but no emulation on a modern raster-based display will quite match the beauty of a true vector based stroke-generated display. To address this, I've been discussing a re-implementation of the PDS-1 with an ASIC chip designer where I work. He's convinced me that we can reduce the PDS-1 to a small handfull of Xilinx chips at a very affordable cost. My plan would be to build a replica of the early model PDS-1 programmers front panel that contained all the processors and memory (the original Imlac was a peice of furniture with the electronics hidden in the back under a small desk). This Re-Imlac would use a real X/Y vector based display, just like the original. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 18 11:11:53 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> <3B7DDF97.CF78932C@tiac.net> <016b01c127e2$3b1af880$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B7E93C9.E9154565@tiac.net> Tom displayed a later-model PDS-1, a long vector machine. I was able to persuade Tom to part with his older short-vector machine. The original documentation for the short-vector machine describes the PDS-1 as shipping in 1968. The PDS-1 uses conventional RS-232 communications. John Allain wrote: > Bob wrote: > > I'll bet on the Imlac PDS-1. > > Tom U's handout puts it at 1971. > Another question: What form of communications > did the Imlac use? > > John A. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 18 11:16:51 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <003001c127ee$04c4f180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B7E94F3.5C284212@tiac.net> Sorry, this is bad advice! Motorcycle batteries will work, for a short time. Then they will need to be replaced and end-up costing you far more than if you had gotten the proper battery in the first place. The reason why is that motorcycle batteries are not 'deep cycle' batteries, and loose a lot of their capacity when discharged. A motor cycle battery is designed to deliver a moderate current for a very short time, and then be recharged imediately. Deep cycle batteries used on a UPS (or robot application) have a different plate design, and chemical buffers added to the electrolyte to no irreversable reactions take place to reduce the active area of the plates inside the battery. Also, motor cycle batteries are not that much cheaper than a gel cell, as gel cells are now made in huge numbers. Gel cells are also much safer to have indoors than motor cycle batteries that vent hydrogen gas during charge and discharge operations. Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's cheaper to use motorcycle batteries than to replace the Gel-Cell batteries > common in older UPS'. There's no reason that shouldn't work. I have an 800W > UPS that came with gel-cells, that now has motorcycle batteries in it. The > gel-cells cost $110 each, while the motorcycle batteries cost $36 each. It's > not hard figuring out which I prefer. Now, there may be some hazards ... > > What kind of batteries are you trying to revive? I've got some old (1980) 6volt > and 12volt types I've kept around since they were new. These get recharged > about every two years, and seem to hold charge pretty well. Two of them are > 6-volt GATES lead-acid cell types, with three pairs of cells in each one, while > the others are sealed lead acid types. Both seem to like the nominally 9-volt > 2-amp charger I got with the latter. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Allain" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:41 AM > Subject: Car batteries in the home? > > > Hello World, > > > > I'm trying to restock a large (900W) UPS with batteries. > > Anybody have a pointer to a good battery site? > > Can car batteries be good for a UPS? Seems they are > > for high Amps, short duration, Might they also be good > > for general purpose? > > On a parallel track I'm trying to revive some old mid sized > > 6 &12V batteries, so the pointer would help. > > > > John A. > > No, 30 microvolts! --Dr. Beverly Crusher > > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Aug 18 10:33:20 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <01C126BA.8E671F60.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010818113320.01deb908@obregon.multi.net.co> Jim Tuck wrote: At 01:18 AM 8/17/01 -0400, you wrote: >HTML isn't flimsy as a language goes.. The problem is >the wack intrepreters. Each does something different, >especially in the case of a broken document.. > >(Not starting a browser flamewar.. No, I'm not. >Really. No flames. Shaddup already!.) > >Jim I've always wondered why html was not originally conceived say, as a package extension for TeX; each browser would run TeX, load the html doc with locally defined screen (i.e. paper) size parms and output a dvi file that would be rendered on the screen... That would have made the web look so much better... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Aug 18 10:24:41 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <265.628T1750T2184915optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010818112441.0206020c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:38 AM 8/16/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >Tony Duell skrev: >>Well down the list, though, come some well-known microprocessor assembly >>languages. For obvious reasons... > >Please enlighten an assembly novice as to what reason that might be. Any >particular cases to look out for? Beware of the CDP1802. It's been long enough that I don't remember the exact causes, but in order to CALL/RETURN something you had to execute an inordinate number of instructions. I hated it. I liked the 8085 for real time stuff (good self-contained interrupt structure). The z80 for mixed lang programming. But the 6800 and up were plain elegant and easiest to code. A highly orthogonal instruction set. I am still somewhat of an expert in 68hc11 programming :-) . The 6502 and the X,Y pointer mechanism, though good for graphics, I never liked entirely... I could comment on something other than 8-bitters, such as DSPs or a couple 32bit uproc's, but that would be too long. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 18 11:54:43 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Imlac PDS-1, was Re: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: <006e01c126a4$54b19220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010816170911.02541060@209.185.79.193> <3B7DDF97.CF78932C@tiac.net> <3B7E1F79.FA76E278@tinyworld.co.uk> <3B7E9355.44F0F193@tiac.net> Message-ID: <004a01c12806$7b5b9980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> This is amazing. I was introduced to the Imlac* in 1976 (8 years later) and then they were still more fun to use than most anything else. It sorta explains the ADM marketing campaign, if everything was a smart terminal before 1972 or so. Before Imlac wins the Historical contest though I'd like to introduce some other names for consideration: Adage, E&S, Sanders, and good ole charlie Tektronix. * PDS-4,PDS-X John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 18 11:57:53 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) References: Message-ID: <005001c12806$ec7fd540$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I believe my first program was " I remember seeing an underclassmen's program once where ALL the variables were named after Star Wars characters. I liked the fact that they didn't choose the shortest route (A,B, I,J, etc) John A. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Aug 18 09:38:20 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010818103820.01de1c94@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:43 PM 8/14/01 +0100, you wrote: >MAILERWARS! > >I use pine myself - nothing special really :&) > >I use mail occasionally too Eudora at home, mozilla at work, although sometimes I will use mailx (especially w. pipes) or pine. I prefer Eudora. I use mozilla out of necessity. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Aug 18 12:31:49 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010818103820.01de1c94@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <3.0.2.32.20010818103820.01de1c94@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: >Eudora at home, mozilla at work, although sometimes I will use >mailx (especially w. pipes) or pine. I prefer Eudora. I use >mozilla out of necessity. I know there are older mail readers out there than Eudora, but I've been a big fan of it on both PC and Mac platforms for years. Other than when I was running YAM on Amiga's, Eudora has always been my email program at home. I also like mail.app on both NeXTstep and Mac OSX and tend to run it when I don't need to access the Outlook-specific stuff on our Exchange server at work. I wish I could do away with Outlook altogether! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Aug 18 12:41:29 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 08:46:18AM -0700 References: <20010818012402.B27659@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20010818104129.A14644@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 08:46:18AM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. > > > > _Really_ fancy assemblers can imitate a Turing machine at assembly time. > > Then your program can contain whatever you want (list of prime numbers, > > factorial, counterexample to Fermat's last theorem, etc.) and your code need > > not do any calculation at all. The risk is that your program may take an > > infinitely long time to assemble! > > That is a really fucked up thing to do to a beginner for their FIRST > program. START with something so grossly trivial that they can do it with > NO problems, and get a token success in their first attempt. THEN you can > make them work in subsequent projects. I never said that fancy macros were for beginners! I was just pointing out the extreme case of what you can do with a good macro processor. The beginners WILL probably want to use the PRINT macro, however. Also, I mentioned languages with embedded assemblers, and that might be a useful way to teach assembler -- by ignoring it at first and then using it in small pieces. -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 12:37:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 17, 1 06:28:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3676 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/f0468885/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 12:46:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <200108180226.WAA11222@granger.mail.mindspring.net> from "Louis Schulman" at Aug 17, 1 10:27:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2419 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/8938c6a4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 13:03:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <200108180256.f7I2uCP01094@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Aug 17, 1 09:56:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/a48af8d5/attachment.ksh From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Aug 18 13:25:53 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010818113320.01deb908@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <01C126BA.8E671F60.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010818112523.027d2018@pop.azstarnet.com> At 11:33 AM 8/18/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I've always wondered why html was not originally conceived >say, as a package extension for TeX; each browser would run TeX, >load the html doc with locally defined screen (i.e. paper) size >parms and output a dvi file that would be rendered on the screen... >That would have made the web look so much better... Isn't that basically the idea of display Postscript? Whatever happened to that? GZ Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 13:15:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <1117.630T2150T2615651optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 18, 1 04:21:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/70ae3445/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 13:18:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <20010818025126.L10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 18, 1 02:52:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/e6bebf3a/attachment.ksh From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 18 14:07:48 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <1484.630T350T2554295optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 18, 2001 04:15:07 AM Message-ID: <200108181907.PAA17965@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Tony Duell skrev: > > >I've seen hardware 'designers' do something similar with FPGAs (and other > >technologies that are easy to modify). Things like 'maybe it'll work if I > >change this AND gate to an OR gate' or 'I'll try inverting that clock > >signal'. Or 'Maybe I need one more state in that counter'. No real idea > >as to what they should be doing, and why. > > As long as you analyse it afterwards and find out what made it work/not work, > it's all right by me. But what if they can't? Here's an article about a researcher who applied genetic programming [1] techniques to building a circuit in an FPGA and ended up with a 32 gate result (to distinquich between two tones), with five gates seemingly unconnected yet crutial to the operation. The researcher doesn't fully understand *why* it works: http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/ai/primordial.jsp -spc (Is uneasy with this but yet sees this as becoming more and more common ... ) [1] A method of evolving the best program to solve a particular problem. It takes several *solutions* and breeds the most promising ones to produce better offspring that get a better answer to the problem. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Aug 18 11:45:59 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817123748.01fb92a0@209.185.79.193> References: <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010818124559.020635b0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:39 PM 8/17/01 -0700, Chuck wrote: >Car batteries are not good for a UPS because they are not "deep cycle" >batteries (that is they don't expect to be drained all the way to zero, >which damages them) That, plus the fact that plate surface area is maximized for a very high short-circuit current. In turn, this means that the volumetric energy density is much lower for a car battery than for a UPS battery. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Aug 18 12:45:51 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: OT: driving in Italy (was Mourning for Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817193931.01fa4af0@209.185.79.193> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010818134551.01c5f650@obregon.multi.net.co> At 07:45 PM 8/17/01 -0700, Chuck wrote: >Sounds like Italy (the driving anyway!) Talk about that! Imagine a bunch of cars entering the highway from a side access, spaced about 9 ft apart at 60mph, without knowing if they will have to slow down (perhaps suddenly) because there aren't enough open spots in the highway traffic in order to merge in... -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 18 14:40:07 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:30 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: References: <20010818025126.L10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818123744.0203db80@209.185.79.193> At 07:18 PM 8/18/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > What about a TI-92? It's a bit like a tiny laptop with Mathematica > > installed. > >That was one calculator I seriously considered at one point. But then HP >came out with the 49G, I have a TI-92+ and love it. I pretty much had to get it after I found out what was inside it (basically a Sun-2 running Mathematica :-)) I would like a backlit color TFT version but this will do. I to would like "real" large integers, I've got a library (aka a program) that does some multiprecision stuff (for testing large numbers for primeness) but its not very flexible nor is it built in. --Chuck From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Aug 18 14:36:41 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: FS: Silent 700s and Trimm 19" rack mount box with slides In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817221206.022e6eb0@209.185.79.193>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:25:00PM -0700 References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817221206.022e6eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <20010818143641.U26783@mrbill.net> On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:25:00PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > First an EXTREMELY rare Texas Instruments Silent 700 with Bubble Memory > storage (model 765). These are very unusual because there was only a short > period of time between when bubble memory was practical and the whole > Silent 700 was impractical :-) The Silent 700 series are thermal printing, > hard copy terminals. Works fine. $75 + postage. (Strangely a bubble memory > unit for this thing brought $76 on Ebay a while back, go figure) I've got one of these, free for pickup in Austin, TX. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 14:22:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Imlac PDS-1, was Re: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B7E9355.44F0F193@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 18, 1 12:09:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/f052ea38/attachment.ksh From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 18 15:19:00 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C ompu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108182019.f7IKJ0E00679@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: > I bought the first 28C that I saw. And the first 48SX. And the first 49G. Hmm. I don't like the 49. It is so ???, so ??, so round and ??? My 48SX (with self made RAM expansion cards) is much more then I need. So I have no need for the 49 and therefore I don't want to spend the money for it. I like it more to collect clasic calculators. Up to now there are only the 41CV and a TI SLR50 besides my 48SX. > Yes, I like RPN machines.... ME2! > Elsewhere I have (at least) : [lots of stuff] > And I am not a calculator collector! Are you sure of _not_ being a calculator collector? ;-) >> What brand / model is it? Non HP RPN calculators seam to be really > See above (Commodore RPN4921) ??? Commodore made RPM calculators? Astonishing. I did not know that they made calculators at all. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 18 15:36:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Paging Eric Smith or Al Kossow References: <002a01c1285c$b396eec0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <000d01c12825$75c48940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Eric's just up to his *ss in his work. He's a guy who, when he's in that state, works 30 hours per day, 8 days per week. He doesn't email much. I did have an email from him just a few days ago, however, so he's still alive and well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:11 PM Subject: Paging Eric Smith or Al Kossow Sorry to use the bandwidth folks.... I've been trying to contact either Al Kossow or Eric Smith for many months now, no responses to email. Anyone know if they are still around or maybe just have a different email address? Thanks! Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/06e2c3a4/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 18 15:38:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Car batteries in the home? References: <200108171552.f7HFqog29997@narnia.int.dittman.net> <002701c12743$e1192c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <003001c127ee$04c4f180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000a01c127f9$b8f098c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001501c12825$b9ab5940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Nope ... Not hot enough. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Car batteries in the home? > > ... motorcycle batteries cost $36 each ... > > there may be some hazards ... > > Yeah, you short out those guys and it's molten lead city. > Wait, you'd probably like that. > > > > What kind of batteries are you trying to revive? > > The ~3pound spade lug emergency lighting cuboids > 6V 10Ah; Yuasa (NP10-6) and Panasonic (LCR6V10PA) > > I tried 12V 1/2hour. Most register 3V,10mA (no misprint) > afterwards so they may all be toast. Only one of the Pana's > got hot, as if shorted. > > John A. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 18 15:45:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818104129.A14644@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > I never said that fancy macros were for beginners! I was just pointing out > the extreme case of what you can do with a good macro processor. The > beginners WILL probably want to use the PRINT macro, however. I apologize. I was under the [apparently mistaken] impression that we were talking about beginners. > Also, I mentioned languages with embedded assemblers, and that might be a > useful way to teach assembler -- by ignoring it at first and then using it > in small pieces. That might be very interesting. In the 60s, it was commonplace to teach EAM (punch card devices), then machine language, then assembly language, then high level languages! I had been doing some EAM work and a little Fortran before I had my first course. After a semester of EAM, they let us do 1401 machine language (on a 1620 with an emulator!), then 1401 assembvly language, then Fortran (PDQ!), and Cobol. Now,... I tell my students to learn a high level language before taking [PC] Assembly language (that it is NOT the easiest way to learn what a program is, etc.) I start them off with trivial stuff using the 'A' command in DEBUG. Once they are writing programs that are long enough that it is annoying to have to insert a line, then I introduce them to the assembler (MASM 1.0 - 6.0, CHASM, A86, etc.) Starting in DEBUG is largely because of the excessive amount of overhead in MASM. I have them writing .COM files for most of the semester. In the C class, I let them use whatever compilers they own, but encourage them (non-subtly) to use Turbo-C (on the machines in the lab), in order to let them start writing programs WITHOUT spending the first half of the course on MAKE files, project files, etc. In every programming language, the FIRST assignment that I give is to write a program to put their name on the screen. It is not intended to teach them anything significant about algorithms, data structures, nor machine architecture. It is only to familiarize them with the tools. I knew one teacher whose first assignment involved a FOR loop. Her students were unable to coherently describe whether difficulties that they had were with the compliler or with their programming logic. Virtually none of her students made it to a second course. It is important to differentiate between how a student should be introduced to their first experience in programming v what they should be taught later. A number of years ago, UC Berkeley switched from using Pascal, to using Scheme (a Lisp derivative) for the first programming course for undergraduates. Soon after, they declared that they expected all of their students to already know C before their arrival! I once hired one of their graduates. I fired him a few weeks later. He was unable to write a trivial program to print 3-up mailing labels from a name/address data file, because he couldn't figure out any way to do 3-up labels without knowing how to make the printer return to the top of the page! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jrice at texoma.net Sat Aug 18 17:08:28 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Compu References: <200108182019.f7IKJ0E00679@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3B7EE75C.13CBA8F4@texoma.net> I bought a Commodore MinuteMan 1 calculator in June 1972. It weighed around 3 pounds, had a red led display and only basic functions, +, -, *, / with no user accessable registers. The rechargable batteries had a very short life. Mine spent more time in the service center than in my hands. The cost? $179.99 at my local J.C.Penny store, in the camera department. I replaced it with a $59.95 TI calculator that a friend bought for me at the TI employee store for half price(I lived in Sherman, TX where TI made logic chips, wafers and PAVE smart bomb kits). See: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ssdm/computer_collection/commodore/minuteman1.html James jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > See above (Commodore RPN4921) > ??? Commodore made RPM calculators? Astonishing. I did not know that > they made calculators at all. > -- > > tschuess, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 16:52:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C In-Reply-To: <200108182019.f7IKJ0E00679@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Aug 18, 1 10:19:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010818/b79be58c/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Aug 18 17:30:26 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Misc 4004, PDP II that got away In-Reply-To: <004001c1272a$43515d40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> References: <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: One of my friends mentioned he is about ready to sell off a surplus of new old stock 4004 processor chips he has, preferably as a lot. Any interest? I saw a PDP 11/53 the other day, but someone had already claimed it and started pulling stuff. Same person had a Vax 4000/60 on its way to being scrapped. Curious, but I don't know enough to pursue either, or if I should. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Aug 18 17:34:05 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: an odd question In-Reply-To: References: <001501c126c6$d7ee8e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: >> > How do you define 'terminal'? >> RS232 or Current loop comm. > ASR > Selectric Selectric with an APL typeball and 135 bps connection to UCLA's 360, gone forever, amazing in hindsight. From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Aug 18 19:16:16 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Misc 4004, PDP II that got away In-Reply-To: References: <004001c1272a$43515d40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010818171558.00b820c0@mail.azstarnet.com> At 03:30 PM 8/18/2001 -0700, you wrote: >One of my friends mentioned he is about ready to sell off a surplus of new >old stock 4004 processor chips he has, preferably as a lot. Any interest? There are some on Ebay right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266188307 From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 18 18:58:49 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( Message-ID: It is with great disappointment that I must announce that VCF 5.0 has been tentatively cancelled due to a lack of interest from participants. Exhibitor and vendor sign-ups have been extremely low, and the impression I get is that interest has waned this year. I made one last push this week to encourage exhibitor and vendor sign-ons to no avail. Granted, the planning for VCF 5.0 was much shorter due to VCF East, but I thought that as soon as I sent out announcements (on July 31st) that there would have been a flood of sign-ups. That didn't happen, leading me to believe that perhaps exhibitors and vendors from past years are too busy this year with the economy being the way it is to consider participating. There are numerous advantages to holding the event on the planned dates, but without any exhibitors or vendors, there wouldn't be much of an event to present. The admission price would have to drop to a level that would not justify the cost of holding the event. However, if the interest is there, but has just not been expressed properly, then I would very much like to find out. If you did plan on attending the VCF this year, either has an exhibitor, a vendor, or just an attendee, please let me know about it. Below are three links to visit to either signup as an exhibitor, a vendor, or to indicate that you will be attending. If the response to this is positive, VCF 5.0 will go on. If not, VCF 5.0 will be cancelled. Exhibitors: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/exhibit.php Vendors: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/vendor.php Attendees: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/survey.php For general comments or feedback, please feel free to e-mail me directly at . I do hope that there is an overwhelming response to this announcement and that the VCF will go on as planned. However, it's up to you to do your part and let me know. Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 21:29:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Gateway Z80 ISA cards Message-ID: <775.631T2200T2095357optimus@canit.se> I've come across two full-length eight-bit ISA cards from Gateway Communications. The main chips on it is a family of Zilog chips: Z80 CPU, 2?SCC, Z80 CTC. The blanking plate fatures a micro-D50, the same kind found on SCSI cards. It's not uncommon to find Zilog chips on SCSI controllers, but that connector was AFAIk introduced with SCSI-2, and an 8-bit SCSI-2 card seems like an odd thing to do. The card is labelled WNIM Z80 and is copyrighted 1990. The farther end of the card features two 10-pin headers marked PORT 1,2 and PORt 3,4 respectively. What could this board be for? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Remember: - On the Amiga, you can make a way. - On Linux, there is a way, you just don't know it. - On Windows, there is no way and you know it. Aaron Digulla From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 21:52:15 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1471.631T750T2324643optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> All right, I've really never looked into an architecture without an >> accumulator. >There aren't many microprocessors without an accumulator. But things like >the PDP11 don't have one. I can add R1 to R3, or one memory location to >another, or... No restriction on one of the operands being in a special >registers. I take it you're no big fan of load/store designs? >> >I am not going to name any particular chips, but I think that should >> >explain why I prevfer the 6809 to the 6502, for example. >> >> Because it's got more registers? >> I think the 6809 (at a glance) seems to have a lot more special cases and >Eh? Yes, there are some special-cases on the 6809 (MUL, for example). But >the 6502 has many more. Heck, on the 6502 you have to use the X register >for one kind of indrect and indexed addressing and the Y register for the >other form (on the 6809 you can do any addressing mode with X or Y (or >with U or S for that matter). On the 6809 you can transfer values between >any 2 registers of the same size. On the 6502 you can't even transfer >between X and Y without destroying the accumulator contents (IIRC). I was specifically thinking of all the different registers and the way you combine them. But I've not got enough experience to make any insightful comparisons. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "If Linux were a beer, it would be shipped in open barrels so that anybody could piss in it before delivery." -- Unknown From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 21:44:26 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010818112523.027d2018@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <175.631T1300T2245129optimus@canit.se> Gordon C. Zaft skrev: >display Postscript? Whatever happened to that? It turned into "Toothpaste", or whatever that MacOS X feature is called. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 20:51:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818023954.J10293-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <454.631T2750T1716671optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >Jeffrey S. Sharp said: >> Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? >Iggy Drougge said: >> So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. >Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could >something different suffice? No, you may put anything you want between the quotation marks. Preferably something to spite your teachers and friends. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 21:47:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010818112441.0206020c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <1596.631T1800T2275169optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 03:38 AM 8/16/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>Tony Duell skrev: >>>Well down the list, though, come some well-known microprocessor assembly >>>languages. For obvious reasons... >> >>Please enlighten an assembly novice as to what reason that might be. Any >>particular cases to look out for? >Beware of the CDP1802. It's been long enough that I don't remember the >exact causes, but in order to CALL/RETURN something you had to >execute an inordinate number of instructions. I hated it. If you're referring to the RCA 1802, I'd think Tony would like that one, what with its flexible registers. >I liked the 8085 for real time stuff (good self-contained interrupt >structure). The z80 for mixed lang programming. But the 6800 and >up were plain elegant and easiest to code. A highly orthogonal >instruction set. I am still somewhat of an expert in 68hc11 programming :-) . >The 6502 and the X,Y pointer mechanism, though good for graphics, >I never liked entirely... 6502 and 6809 are my main points of reference, and I still haven't programmed those, only looked into manuals. =) >I could comment on something other than 8-bitters, such as DSPs or >a couple 32bit uproc's, but that would be too long. No, please do. As long as it's =>10 years old. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia." - Theo de Raadt From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 20:50:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Danish Message-ID: <1676.631T2750T1706439optimus@canit.se> My, what an interesting find today. I just hope the boys were able to find a taxi, or it will have ended up on a dirty road in the middle of nowhere. The beast I'm referring to is an RC855, made by Regnecentralen of Denmark. It's a brown and beige (which seems to have been the colours of choice for all Scandinavian computers, whether Luxor, Tandberg or Regnecentralen =) tiltable screen with a sturdy stand into which a microcomputer is fit. It also came with two eight-inch floppy drives, which someone with a sick sense of humour has named "Picollo". I also managed to find two floppies, one of which seems to contain CP/M. Urgh. Couldn't it have been something more interesting? Nevertheless, it's Danish, so I like it. The floppies are daisychained on a D36. There are also two serial ports, a detachable keyboard and some kind of network port, IIRC a three or four-pin DIN connector. Among other finds were a C64C, an Atari 520STFM (yawn) and two small Memorex Telex boxes with VGA out and twinax networking. Some kind of terminals apparently, these seem to have been used in a cinema booking system. There was also a DECwriter IV there, but I had to leave it since some people think VGA monitors are more fun than 300 bps hard copy terminals. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 21:17:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2003.631T1000T1974973optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >I tell my students to learn a high level language before taking [PC] >Assembly language (that it is NOT the easiest way to learn what a program >is, etc.) You mean you teach them Intel assembler? Here, it seems to be all about Motorola or MIPS assembly. Which is nice, since that gives me and my neighbour something to talk about. =) >A number of years ago, UC Berkeley switched from using Pascal, to using >Scheme (a Lisp derivative) for the first programming course for >undergraduates. Soon after, they declared that they expected all of their >students to already know C before their arrival! When I took the programming course at the gymnasium, we were first taught scheme. A lot of people complained that it was a useless language, which in part is true, since it's hardly the kind of language you write a web browser in. But I thought it was a nice beginner's language (contrary to most of my co-students, I had programming experience, so my perspective differed from theirs). The syntax is extremely simple, I think Tony would like it. A lot of people superficially describe it as "a lot of parantheses", and that's true. There's not a lot of semicolons, three kinds of parantheses, hashes and the like. OTOH, I also thought that it (and the teacher) encouraged some very dangerous programming techniques, such as recursivity. But C at arrival? Well, if there are preparation courses, I can see why. There are a lot of people who have been using and programming computers since they were kids, and they have an initial advantage over the newcomers. So as not to bore the already-experienced, I can see why the real courses should start with such a prerequisite as long as there is a preparatory course for those not born with a joystick in their hand. Now it seems to be all about Java, though. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Anv?nd g?rna mitt staket, fast du beh?ver nog fr?scha upp det lite. Lupin III, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 21:40:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: This week's finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1092.631T350T2203751optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>One extremely hacked-up Amiga 500. With all the solder, broken pins, added >>sockets and switches, it's one hideous "Rock lobster". >Iggy, > Any ideas on what they were trying to do? Well, an amateurish acceleration project seems to have once been in progress. The CPU has been replaced with a 16 MHz one. The memory seems to have been patched for maximum chip memory, which is the sound thing to do, since this is one of the earliest revisions, with a C= key instead of the LAmiga key. The keyboard cable's been lengthened with a piece of ribbon cable and there's a new transformer in some kind of small 5?" housing. There are two switches on the outside, I think one is connected to a Kickstart switch whereas the other one goes nowhere. Perhaps was it once part of the accelerator project? There is a socket piggy-backed on one of the RAM chips. Lots of pins on various chips have been broken off and then resoldered. What an ambitious owner. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 18 21:07:47 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. References: Message-ID: <017001c12853$bef13540$09c7fec7@bofh> Thanks to Chuck, I'm getting a nice little SS1. I've done some searching on the net, but I can't find anything that tells me the maximum capacity of hard disk that the SS1 will support. Can anyone point me to a location or let me know if there is a limit? (beyond physical size) Thanks! g. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 18 21:27:07 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. In-Reply-To: <017001c12853$bef13540$09c7fec7@bofh> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818192530.029e52e0@209.185.79.193> The interior sled takes a standard 3.5" form factor drive, single ended SCSI. With only 1 you can drop in a 2GB barracuda (with more than 1 heat becomes a problem). The external SCSI-2 connector will obviously connect up to 7 external SCSI devices. Consider getting a "dual" external SCSI box and put a CD-ROM drive and a disk in it. --Chuck At 07:07 PM 8/18/01 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks to Chuck, I'm getting a nice little SS1. I've done some searching on >the net, but I can't find anything that tells me the maximum capacity of >hard disk that the SS1 will support. Can anyone point me to a location or >let me know if there is a limit? (beyond physical size) > >Thanks! > >g. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Aug 18 22:21:33 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Gateway Z80 ISA cards In-Reply-To: <775.631T2200T2095357optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 19-Aug-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > I've come across two full-length eight-bit ISA cards from Gateway > Communications. The main chips on it is a family of Zilog chips: Z80 > CPU, > 2?SCC, Z80 CTC. The blanking plate fatures a micro-D50, the same kind > found on > SCSI cards. It's not uncommon to find Zilog chips on SCSI controllers, > but > that connector was AFAIk introduced with SCSI-2, and an 8-bit SCSI-2 > card > seems like an odd thing to do. > The card is labelled WNIM Z80 and is copyrighted 1990. The farther end > of the > card features two 10-pin headers marked PORT 1,2 and PORt 3,4 > respectively. > > What could this board be for? Looks like they would be serial boards : http://www.utexas.edu/ftp/microlib/info/microgram/90_Nov/net_dos_serial_sha re -Philip From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Aug 18 22:04:12 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Misc 4004, PDP II that got away In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010818171558.00b820c0@mail.azstarnet.com> References: <004001c1272a$43515d40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <200108170823.f7H8NCP00531@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >>One of my friends mentioned he is about ready to sell off a surplus of new >>old stock 4004 processor chips he has, preferably as a lot. Any interest? > > There are some on Ebay right now: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266188307 I think those are like what my friend has. The "valuable" ones are the white ceramic with gold leads. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 18 23:19:08 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: FS: VAXStation 3100/M76 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818210702.02759eb0@209.185.79.193> I bought a pallet with some VAXStations at auction and I'm going to sell several of them on Ebay to raise funds to cover the cost of storage for the rest of my collection. However, before I do that, and at the risk of ruining my market, there are three types of systems available: VS3100/M76 16MB Mono, w/ RZ23 VS3100/M76 16MB Color (8pln, not the SPX), w/RZ23 VS4000/M60 24MB Color, w/RZ24 If you want one, make me an offer by midnight pacific time thursday (I'm planning to start listing them Friday). Note I will expect you to cover the cost of packing and shipping it which shouldn't be all that much (say 30 lbs from Sunnyvale, CA 94087). Note that I'll balance the offer against the hard luck story that comes with it :-) So if you have a good story that will help your cause. I will include an MMJ cable with a male DB25 adapter (either DTE or DCE your choice). No, none of them came with the funky SCSI cable that you need for a VS3100. I've also got a VS3100 M30? (KA42) with an RX23 that is available for $10 + postage (it has 8MB and no internal hard drives) --Chuck From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 18 23:37:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Gateway Z80 ISA cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > On 19-Aug-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > > I've come across two full-length eight-bit ISA cards from Gateway > > Communications. The main chips on it is a family of Zilog chips: Z80 > > CPU, > > 2?SCC, Z80 CTC. The blanking plate fatures a micro-D50, the same kind > > found on > > SCSI cards. It's not uncommon to find Zilog chips on SCSI controllers, > > but > > that connector was AFAIk introduced with SCSI-2, and an 8-bit SCSI-2 > > card > > seems like an odd thing to do. > > The card is labelled WNIM Z80 and is copyrighted 1990. The farther end > > of the > > card features two 10-pin headers marked PORT 1,2 and PORt 3,4 > > respectively. > > > > What could this board be for? > > Looks like they would be serial boards : > > http://www.utexas.edu/ftp/microlib/info/microgram/90_Nov/net_dos_serial_sha > re Not any more, now they're Z80 donors. But how does one find out their frequency rating? From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Aug 19 00:29:05 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 01:45:07PM -0700 References: <20010818104129.A14644@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20010818222905.A5721@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 01:45:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > > I never said that fancy macros were for beginners! I was just pointing out > > the extreme case of what you can do with a good macro processor. The > > beginners WILL probably want to use the PRINT macro, however. > > I apologize. I was under the [apparently mistaken] impression that we > were talking about beginners. We were, but then I changed the subject. :) > > Also, I mentioned languages with embedded assemblers, and that might be a > > useful way to teach assembler -- by ignoring it at first and then using it > > in small pieces. > > That might be very interesting. Acorn designed a 6502-based computer for the BBC, called (natch) the BBC Microcomputer. Sophie Wilson wrote a fine BASIC for the machine. When Acorn designed the ARM chip and a line of computers based on that, the BASIC got ported, but I don't know who did that work. I mentioned BBC BASIC in another message, but only in passing. It does all the usual "instant gratification" BASIC things but can accommodate structured coding (REPEAT/UNTIL, multi-line functions/procedures that take values and return results, probably other features). The assembler is tied into the BASIC very nicely. You can access BASIC variables from assembler and you can use BASIC programming to determine what to assemble (I guess that would be a kind of macro processing). It's not a perfect solution. It still allows spaghetti code. If you're writing pure assembly (as opposed to mixed BASIC/assembly) a full assembler might be less clumsy. But it's certainly very flexible in that you can start with simple programs and work up to quite complicated ones. Disclaimer: I haven't written any programs in the language myself. > I knew one teacher whose first assignment involved a FOR loop. Her > students were unable to coherently describe whether difficulties that they > had were with the compiler or with their programming logic. Virtually > none of her students made it to a second course. Sad but occasionally true. I met a student in an intro CS course who obviously didn't understand the idea of imperative programming (what happens to variables as the program progresses, the fact _that_ the program progresses, what WHILE loops do, etc.). > I once hired one of their graduates. I fired him a few weeks later. He > was unable to write a trivial program to print 3-up mailing labels from a > name/address data file, because he couldn't figure out any way to do 3-up > labels without knowing how to make the printer return to the top of the > page! I'm sure I could solve the problem pretty quickly. On the other hand, I would put that task (or ones like it, but more elaborate) into the class of "algorithms that look easy, but require more analysis and more weird special cases than you would think at first". More elaborate tasks might include: - Make the names run alphabetically down the first column of a page, then down the second, then down the third, then continue with the next page. - Make the names run alphabetically down the first columns of all pages, then the second, then the third. - (I did this recently in AWK) Change a file of the form jmp a1 call a2 jmp a2 call a3 into one of the form a1 jmp a2 call, jmp a3 call - If you really generalize things you get report generators or page-layout programs. I suspect those require a lot of care to get right. Maybe I'm the only one with this view. Maybe I've gotten lazy after graduating. Maybe the current programming languages make this sort of thing harder than it ought to be. But maybe not. :) -- Derek From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 19 00:37:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818192530.029e52e0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <01b201c12870$fe7652a0$09c7fec7@bofh> > The interior sled takes a standard 3.5" form factor drive, single ended > SCSI. With only 1 you can drop in a 2GB barracuda (with more than 1 heat > becomes a problem). The external SCSI-2 connector will obviously connect up > to 7 external SCSI devices. Consider getting a "dual" external SCSI box and > put a CD-ROM drive and a disk in it. > I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was asking about a maximum capacity limit, not a physical one. I can get 9GB drives fairly cheap, and I just wanted to know if the SS1 would support a drive of that size (or greater). Thanks! g. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 19 01:06:19 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. In-Reply-To: <01b201c12870$fe7652a0$09c7fec7@bofh> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818192530.029e52e0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818230553.01d42540@209.185.79.193> Yup. 9GB is not a problem. --Chuck At 10:37 PM 8/18/01 -0700, you wrote: >I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was asking about a maximum capacity limit, not >a physical one. I can get 9GB drives fairly cheap, and I just wanted to >know if the SS1 would support a drive of that size (or greater). From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Aug 19 01:21:10 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( References: Message-ID: <008301c12877$25779de0$4729b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > It is with great disappointment that I must announce that VCF 5.0 has > been tentatively cancelled due to a lack of interest from participants. > Exhibitor and vendor sign-ups have been extremely low, and the > impression I get is that interest has waned this year. > Wow, that really sucks. Maybe its the mid-September date, which is earlier than prior years. It can be hard to get away during September as so many things seem to start then (school, sports teams, work). Moreover, the date is forcing your planning and organization into August which is a heavy vacation month, which may account for the meager response at this point. I think that, given time, "everyone" will eventually show up. However, if you have a no-refund date on a deposit that you are up against, or an additional deposit due, I wouldn't blame you for not assuming that risk. From jss at subatomix.com Sun Aug 19 01:49:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <454.631T2750T1716671optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010819013526.E15443-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Jeffrey S. Sharp said: > Now, why is it so important to have a PRINT statement? Iggy Drougge said: > So that you may print "HELLO WORLD". It's essential for the newbie. Jeffrey S. Sharp said: > Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could something different > suffice? Iggy Drougge said: > No, you may put anything you want between the quotation marks. Ah-HA! Thus, the higher-level educational purpose of such PRINTing is to provide some sort of feedback to the novice, so that he can see, with one, simple command, the computer performing as he instructed. That purpose does not necessitate a PRINT statement at all. It doesn't even necessitate a text message. MOVE 10100101, DISPLAY_REGISTER -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Aug 19 02:05:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Aug 18, 1 07:15:48 pm" Message-ID: <200108190705.AAA09964@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > with U or S for that matter). On the 6809 you can transfer values between > any 2 registers of the same size. On the 6502 you can't even transfer > between X and Y without destroying the accumulator contents (IIRC). Of course you can! unused_zp = $02 stx unused_zp ldy unused_zp ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only a lot heavier and bigger. ----- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 19 04:21:32 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Update SIMPLEX doc Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010819021630.01b02eb0@209.185.79.193> I've updated the SIMPLEX document and would appreciate critical reviews for accuracy completeness. The URL is here: It also includes my idea for the front panel. I don't know if it will work out that way but that is what I'm shooting for. If I'm lucky the whole thing will fit in one Radio Shack project box, (assuming I make it out of an FPGA) if I build it out of tubes it will probably take up a couple of racks :-) --Chuck (And thanks to Jim Battle who pointed out a clearly better way to do accumulator loads.) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Aug 19 05:22:38 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "Re: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing)" (Aug 18, 22:29) References: <20010818104129.A14644@eskimo.eskimo.com> <20010818222905.A5721@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <10108191122.ZM14320@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 18, 22:29, Derek Peschel wrote: > Acorn designed a 6502-based computer for the BBC, called (natch) the BBC > Microcomputer. Sophie Wilson wrote a fine BASIC for the machine. When > Acorn designed the ARM chip and a line of computers based on that, the BASIC > got ported, but I don't know who did that work. Sophie did. She wrote TWIN (Two WINdow Editor), ChangeFSI (image manipulation program), and some ray-traced demos as well, and several other things. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From sipke at wxs.nl Sun Aug 19 07:04:28 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SC/MP NIBL emultor by Henry Mason Message-ID: <000701c128a7$1a3c6660$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hi Folk, Henry Mason coded an emulator for the SC/MP NIBL system This was a SC/MP based development system that National Semiconductor made. It includes the NIBL ROM so you can program it in very itsypitsy tiny BASIC. I'll be on the lookout for more info on this system. Its aviable for downloading I've included it in my SC/MP page http://xgistor.ath.cx Drill down to: ==> Vintage Computers ==> SC/MP Elektor Emulator Regards, Sipke de Wal From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 19 05:42:14 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818123744.0203db80@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <200108191042.f7JAgE200445@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Aug, Chuck McManis wrote: > I have a TI-92+ and love it. I pretty much had to get it after I found out > what was inside it (basically a Sun-2 running Mathematica :-)) A Sun 2? You mean there is really a system inside that is compatible to the Sun 2 architekture of Sun Microsystems? If that is true, hmmm, there is a Sun2 port in NetBSD... :-) What OS is between the hardware and Mathematica? SunOS? Unix on a calculator? Tststs. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 19 05:35:08 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108191035.f7JAZ9200438@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: [HP49G] > The main complaints I had were [...] > I don't like the rubber keyboard, That was the bigest disapointment for me, when I saw the HP49G the first time. Everyone knows that this rubber keyboards (at least the ones on TV set remote controll units) are not durable. That low quality design on a HP calculator? What comes next? Does HP drop RPN? (Like Comcrap the Alpha, but that is an other story...) > So do I. The old HP's are very well made, reliable, and plain fun to use... My words. > I've started obtaining HPIL peripherals [...] > An HP41 or HP71 controlling a loop of such devices is quite a sight :-) I can imagin. On a computer geek meeting in switzerland I connected the video interface of my HP41CV to a video beamer. It was fun to see the calculator output on the wall... >> Are you sure of _not_ being a calculator collector? ;-) > Yes, I didn't make a serious effort to obtain much of this stuff (I've > never bought on E-bay, etc). Similar for me. I don't go out hunting on EPay. I don't need that stuff. But I keep my eyes open and put my hands on everything that comes around and is afordable. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 19 08:26:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <200108190705.AAA09964@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001101c128b2$884382a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are lots of things one CPU could do more simply than another, but, normally, there were others that went the other way. I remember, back in '80 or so, demonstrating that the 4 MHz 6502 was considerably faster and more code efficient than the 8 MHz 68000. This was, of course, because the 8 MHz 68K had to fetch two words just to get its opcode, though it didn't take long to execute it once the opcode and operands were in place. The key, back in the "old days" was to know each of the available microprocessors well enough to pick the right one in the first place. For almost any task, there was one that would do the most critical tasks more elegantly and efficiently than some other. In most cases, it didn't matter anyway. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > > with U or S for that matter). On the 6809 you can transfer values between > > any 2 registers of the same size. On the 6502 you can't even transfer > > between X and Y without destroying the accumulator contents (IIRC). > > Of course you can! > > unused_zp = $02 > stx unused_zp > ldy unused_zp > > ;-) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only a lot heavier and bigger. ----- > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 10:54:46 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <454.631T2750T1716671optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >Please bear with me. Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could > >something different suffice? On 19 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > No, you may put anything you want between the quotation marks. Preferably > something to spite your teachers and friends. In my classes, they must put their own names between the quotation marks. That way, anybody that turns in somebody else's work unequivicably demonstrates that they are too stupid to remain. It actually does happen! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com Fall 2001 From class at fliptronics.com Sun Aug 19 11:14:59 2001 From: class at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Paging Eric Smith or Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <002a01c1285c$b396eec0$0101a8c0@jay> References: <002a01c1285c$b396eec0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Speaking of people who dont return email :-) On Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:11:54 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry to use the bandwidth folks.... >I've been trying to contact either Al Kossow or Eric Smith for many months now, no responses to email. Anyone know if they are still around or maybe just have a different email address? >Thanks! >Jay West ======= from June 29th Hi Jay, About a year ago, we chatted about a HP signal analyzer that I acquired, that seems to have a 21MX in it (a small one) . I remember that you expressed interest in it, but not strong interest, and that the boards might be useful to you. Well, I have decided it is time to do a clean up, and the system with the 21MX is among the stuff to go. Below is email I sent to the Bay Area classic computer list, as you will see, I am trying to minimize transport distance, and effort in doing this cleanup. You can go to the site below, and find a pic of the system (HP5420) on the second page of pictures. Assuming you want it, the best situation is if you have a friend that could come get it (whole sys). Second best would be to extract the 21MX sub-frame (bottom half of system). More work would be to extract just the cards. Please let me know your interest level. All the best, Philip Freidin =================== copy of email to BACCL mail list It only seems like 4 months ago I decided it was time to immediately clear my garage of stuff I would never bother playing with again. Chuck McM and I took a bunch of photos , and I made a web page . Then I did nothing. As you can see from my web page, I figured the priority should be 1) computer history museum 2) baccl people 3) classic computer list 4) ebay / BDI But looking at what I have, it is hard to imagine what the museum might want. In particular, there are a bunch of items, that if put together create some old AMC development systems, which might be rare. Problem is, I dont have the time or enthusiasm to do this. So here's the new plan: Anounce this stuff on BACCL, and hope someone who has good contacts with the museum can look at this stuff with more interest and time than me, and figure out what should be donated. (and maybe put these systems together from the parts. After thats done, then the priority as above. You can see what's available at http://www.fliptronics.com/garagesale/ Philip Freidin Slothful garage cleaner =============================== ================= Philip Freidin class@fliptronics.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 19 11:27:55 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Update SIMPLEX doc Message-ID: <00e301c128cc$1b577380$2c749a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >I've updated the SIMPLEX document and would appreciate critical reviews for >accuracy completeness. The URL is here: > > >It also includes my idea for the front panel. I don't know if it will work >out that way but that is what I'm shooting for. If I'm lucky the whole >thing will fit in one Radio Shack project box, (assuming I make it out of >an FPGA) if I build it out of tubes it will probably take up a couple of >racks :-) An aside to this.... Why fpga other than as an exercise in FPGA and cpu design? Why not program a PIC or somesuch to emulate the processor??? I doesnt have to be fast as a teaching tool and the ram/rom required to do this would be reasonable. Allison From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1484.monmouth.com Sun Aug 19 11:41:26 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1484.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. In-Reply-To: <01b201c12870$fe7652a0$09c7fec7@bofh> from Gene Buckle at "Aug 18, 2001 10:37:10 pm" Message-ID: <200108191641.f7JGfQi00622@bg-tc-ppp1484.monmouth.com> > > > > The interior sled takes a standard 3.5" form factor drive, single ended > > SCSI. With only 1 you can drop in a 2GB barracuda (with more than 1 heat > > becomes a problem). The external SCSI-2 connector will obviously connect > up > > to 7 external SCSI devices. Consider getting a "dual" external SCSI box > and > > put a CD-ROM drive and a disk in it. > > > > I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was asking about a maximum capacity limit, not > a physical one. I can get 9GB drives fairly cheap, and I just wanted to > know if the SS1 would support a drive of that size (or greater). > > Thanks! > > g. I thought there was a 4.5 gb limit or something like that in SunOS 4.x Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From fdebros at verizon.net Sun Aug 19 11:42:30 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: what is a vxt2000? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818210702.02759eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <004a01c128cd$f095f250$6401a8c0@fred> Just schlepped one home from the MIT flea....I dont even know how much mem it has. I have a copied a xvt2000.sys image file (4.8megs)....now what? just rename it [vxt-MAC].sys and boot from there? what kind of graphics output is supported there? The memory card has three empty simm slots....duh. In front of the mem slot is a digital type scsi plug....any harddisk attachment in there? A note says F2 brings up a setup menu? Can this thingy setup in TCPIP without a mopserver? Doubt THAT! Thanks for the help. Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 11:57:52 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <2003.631T1000T1974973optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 19 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > You mean you teach them Intel assembler? Yes Not because it's "good", but because it's needed. (I teach at a community college, where we are teaching "useful" skills, not the abstractions of the university.) > When I took the programming course at the gymnasium, we were first taught > scheme. A lot of people complained that it was a useless language, which in > part is true, since it's hardly the kind of language you write a web browser > in. But I thought it was a nice beginner's language (contrary to most of my > co-students, I had programming experience, so my perspective differed from > theirs). The syntax is extremely simple, I think Tony would like it. A lot of > people superficially describe it as "a lot of parantheses", and that's true. > There's not a lot of semicolons, three kinds of parantheses, hashes and the > like. I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? > OTOH, I also thought that it (and the teacher) encouraged some very dangerous > programming techniques, such as recursivity. Encouraged? Some of the teachers won't let their students do a program to count to 10 WITHOUT recursion! They can't imagine doing something like Fibonacci sequence WITHOUT using recursion. How can you do a non-trivial program with recursion without stack overflow? > But C at arrival? Well, if there are preparation courses, I can see why. There > are a lot of people who have been using and programming computers since they > were kids, and they have an initial advantage over the newcomers. So as not to > bore the already-experienced, I can see why the real courses should start with > such a prerequisite as long as there is a preparatory course for those not > born with a joystick in their hand. NOPE. NO preparatory course, nor stated prerequisite! It's worse than that. The profs doing the intro course have decided on Scheme, but the ones teaching the next course (Data Structures and Algorithms teach that class using C. When challenged as to the inconsistency, their response was, "well, they should already know how to program in C before they get here." When you have a prof who writes "puzzle code", like Alan Holub, undergrads are expected to follow stuff like while(*T++=*S++); with NO formal preparation. But the program there is over-enrolled. Their approach to that is to progressively keep increasing the volume of homework until there are enough breakdowns to get the enrollment down. I call that sadistic. They call that "social Darwinism". If it were so, then they are breeding for STAMINA, not computer science skill. > Now it seems to be all about Java, though. =/ If it were to live up to its claims of portability, if it were to survive MICROS~1's perversions of it, and if they would give me POINTERS (OK, intrinsically non-portable), then it could be a reasonable approach. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com www.merritt.edu/~fcisin From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 19 12:00:27 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818192530.029e52e0@209.185.79.193> <5.0.0.25.2.20010818230553.01d42540@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <001701c128d0$7222dac0$09c7fec7@bofh> > Yup. 9GB is not a problem. > --Chuck > Great! Now I have to get a Domino's box top & front to fool the wife.... :) g. > At 10:37 PM 8/18/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was asking about a maximum capacity limit, not > >a physical one. I can get 9GB drives fairly cheap, and I just wanted to > >know if the SS1 would support a drive of that size (or greater). > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 19 12:12:06 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: SPARCStation 1 HD size limits.. References: <200108191641.f7JGfQi00622@bg-tc-ppp1484.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <00b801c128d2$12f60200$09c7fec7@bofh> > > I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was asking about a maximum capacity limit, not > > a physical one. I can get 9GB drives fairly cheap, and I just wanted to > > know if the SS1 would support a drive of that size (or greater). > > > > Thanks! > > > > g. > > I thought there was a 4.5 gb limit or something like that in SunOS 4.x > > Bill Bill, I'm going to be using OpenBSD 2.9 on it, so I don't think there will be a problem on the software side. tnx. g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 12:12:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: <20010818222905.A5721@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > Sad but occasionally true. I met a student in an intro CS course who > obviously didn't understand the idea of imperative programming (what happens > to variables as the program progresses, the fact _that_ the program > progresses, what WHILE loops do, etc.). THAT is why beginners should start off with a "trivial" language and "trivial" assignments before they get into the real body of programming. BASIC is excellent for getting those beginning concepts. Then, as soon as those concepts are down, they should switch to a "real" language :-) > > I once hired one of their graduates. I fired him a few weeks later. He > > was unable to write a trivial program to print 3-up mailing labels from a > > name/address data file, because he couldn't figure out any way to do 3-up > > labels without knowing how to make the printer return to the top of the > > page! > I'm sure I could solve the problem pretty quickly. On the other hand, I > would put that task (or ones like it, but more elaborate) into the class > of "algorithms that look easy, but require more analysis and more weird > special cases than you would think at first". It was VERY simple and VERY "real world": "Here's a file of some names and addresses, here's some stuffed envelopes, here's some stamps, here's some sheets of 3-up labels, the post office is 3 blocks east. Try to get them out before lunch, and don't wast supplies, they're expensive." > More elaborate tasks might > include: > > - Make the names run alphabetically down the first column > of a page, then down the second, then down the third, > then continue with the next page. "WITHOUT manipulating the printer feed!" > - Make the names run alphabetically down the first columns > of all pages, then the second, then the third. > > - (I did this recently in AWK) Change a file of the form > > jmp a1 > call a2 > jmp a2 > call a3 > > into one of the form > > a1 jmp > a2 call, jmp > a3 call > > - If you really generalize things you get report generators > or page-layout programs. I suspect those require a lot of > care to get right. > > Maybe I'm the only one with this view. Maybe I've gotten lazy after > graduating. Maybe the current programming languages make this sort of thing > harder than it ought to be. But maybe not. :) Thank you. Those would do nicely as quick assignments in my Data Structures and algorithms course, or near the end of my C class. I already have them do some simple stuff like convert "Firstname Middle Lastname" into "Lastname comma First", and then make them try to expand their programs to deal with exceptions, such as "Martin Van Buren" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 12:20:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:31 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been planning to reserve a vendor space IMMEDIATELY after you post the floorplan to be able to do so! While I don't have anything great, I do need to dispose of a few cubic yards of stuff. It would be a tragic disappointment to not have VCF. But we certainly can't fault you for cancellation, if that's what you have to do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 19 12:39:39 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >THAT is why beginners should start off with a "trivial" language and >"trivial" assignments before they get into the real body of programming. >BASIC is excellent for getting those beginning concepts. Then, as soon as >those concepts are down, they should switch to a "real" language :-) While I agree that BASIC is a good starting point to get into programming, I think that BASIC itself is a lot more powerful than most people give it credit. I've written any number of database applications in compiled PowerBasic over the years, some of them fully able to read/write dBase III format files. One of them was a modular inventory/sales type program that comprised of nearly a dozen seperate programs that were only called when needed. The whole application took up less than 1meg of disk space and was replaced by a similar program written in FoxPro that took up nearly 10 times the disk space and lacked in quite a few areas that the original program was able to handle. I wrote my own functions for sorting and file handling and such based on the demands of each individual application. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 19 12:43:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <2003.631T1000T1974973optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 19 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Now it seems to be all about Java, though. =/ At my school they started with Modula-2. I'm glad. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 19 12:45:39 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Netiquette? In-Reply-To: <1471.631T750T2324643optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Look below at your responses. They're inline. Plus you were *very* rude in your suggestion that I avoid the *exact* same method of quoting that you are using below. Netiquette? Go learn some etiquette first. Peace... Sridhar On 19 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Tony Duell skrev: > > >> All right, I've really never looked into an architecture without an > >> accumulator. > > >There aren't many microprocessors without an accumulator. But things like > >the PDP11 don't have one. I can add R1 to R3, or one memory location to > >another, or... No restriction on one of the operands being in a special > >registers. > > I take it you're no big fan of load/store designs? > > >> >I am not going to name any particular chips, but I think that should > >> >explain why I prevfer the 6809 to the 6502, for example. > >> > >> Because it's got more registers? > >> I think the 6809 (at a glance) seems to have a lot more special cases and > > >Eh? Yes, there are some special-cases on the 6809 (MUL, for example). But > >the 6502 has many more. Heck, on the 6502 you have to use the X register > >for one kind of indrect and indexed addressing and the Y register for the > >other form (on the 6809 you can do any addressing mode with X or Y (or > >with U or S for that matter). On the 6809 you can transfer values between > >any 2 registers of the same size. On the 6502 you can't even transfer > >between X and Y without destroying the accumulator contents (IIRC). > > I was specifically thinking of all the different registers and the way you > combine them. But I've not got enough experience to make any insightful > comparisons. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "If Linux were a beer, it would be shipped in open barrels so that anybody > could piss in it before delivery." > -- Unknown > From jss at subatomix.com Sun Aug 19 12:45:15 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <200108191042.f7JAgE200445@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20010819123751.E16476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > What OS is between the hardware and Mathematica? SunOS? It's not really Mathematica; it just the TI system. It is quite like Mathematica in that it provides symbolic manipulation, the main feature of Mathematica that most college students know or care about. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 19 12:44:23 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: CComp alert: Ed Roberts References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010818210702.02759eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <030501c128d6$95958100$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Oops, I was a little busy today, meant to post this the moment I saw it: Big photo and Article on Ed Roberts on the front page of the 'Money&Business' section of today's Sunday New York Times. "The PC? That Old Thing?" by Steve Lohr also featured: "How the Computer Became Personal" The follow up of the article continues with general history; sketchpad, etc, etc... Lookin good, Ed! John A. see: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/19/technology/19COMP.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 13:02:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010817193931.01fa4af0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Sounds like Italy (the driving anyway!) I do recall that when I learned to > program in Fortran the school had a you send a deck of cards in that they > would run and then you would get your results back. It did make you stop > and think. Still I have to agree that teachers have a lot more influence > than language environment. Reminds me: I had a student in the mid/late 80s, who "obviously didn't have the prerequisites". She didn't know what a source file was, what an object, nor executable file was, hadn't ever heard of a "compiler" nor a "linker". But, it turned out that she had a decent grasp of algorithms. It turned out that she had had multiple programming language courses at Cal State Hayward, where she had learned the words "deck" and "results". I confronted one of the profs there, and asked him why they didn't at least teach their students about compilers. His response: "that's for TECHNICIANS and OPERATORS. Computer scientists don't need to know that petty stuff." > You should meet Mike Kahn. He used an HP1600A and bascially started poking > around inside a Nintendo to make it do mysterious things. It made for a > very interesting VCF exhibit even if maybe only 15% of the people seeing it > understood what was going on. Well, there are also some minor issues of communication. Mike's social skills are as bad as those of the rest of us. > >you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I would never start > >a student off in a rigorous, structured environment. What a perfect way > >to turn them off. > This is very true, let someone get a feel for just how wide open the > choices are when programming and then introduce them to the most efficient > way to get the results they want. Keep in mind that students don't need to continue to use the language that they started with for the rest of their careers! If they start with one language and then very early on, switch to another, then they have the possibility of NOT developing baby duck syndrome, and of haviong a better understanding of how languages work. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 13:13:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >THAT is why beginners should start off with a "trivial" language and > >"trivial" assignments before they get into the real body of programming. > >BASIC is excellent for getting those beginning concepts. Then, as soon as > >those concepts are down, they should switch to a "real" language :-) On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > While I agree that BASIC is a good starting point to get into > programming, I think that BASIC itself is a lot more powerful than > most people give it credit. I've written any number of database I wrote the original Xeno-Copy in BASIC. The commercial versions that Vertex published were compiled with BASCOM. Even the manipulation of Int 1E was in BASIC, and the only "machine language" was to do calls to Int 13. (BTW, the various "levels" for differing prices that Vertex insisted on have a single byte different to enable/disable certain capabilities.) I was very glad when I could get a usable C compiler (DeSmet) for creating XenoCopy-PC, and it was a lot easier to implement some minor assembly language functions. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 19 13:13:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: <008301c12877$25779de0$4729b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > It is with great disappointment that I must announce that > VCF 5.0 has > > been tentatively cancelled due to a lack of interest from > participants. > > Exhibitor and vendor sign-ups have been extremely low, and > the > > impression I get is that interest has waned this year. > > > > Wow, that really sucks. Maybe its the mid-September date, > which is earlier than prior years. It can be hard to get > away during September as so many things seem to start then > (school, sports teams, work). Moreover, the date is forcing > your planning and organization into August which is a heavy > vacation month, which may account for the meager response at > this point. > > I think that, given time, "everyone" will eventually show > up. That is what I would have hoped, but unfortunately I just can't take that gamble this year. Note that I did say "tentatively", so it's not final yet. I'm still trying to think of a creative way to keep it going this year, but it's the finances that are at the heart of the matter. The number of exhibitors is very low this year (only 8 signups so far) and only a few vendors. This is not nearly enough to even begin justifying the expense of the venue. I sent out an announcement to last year's exhibitors and vendors a week ago, hoping that would result in an increased sign-on, but it only garnered one additional exhibitor, and no vendors. Yesterday's message resulted in an increase in sign-ons for exhibitors, but my vendors are still nowhere to be seen. So here's the current plan: make the VCF a lecture only event this year, and if I can figure out a way to cost effectively hold an exhibit, then I'll do that as well. I realize time is of importance here and I will hopefully have a clear idea of what's going to happen in a day or two, so that what exhibitors have signed up will still have time to make their plans. Stay tuned...and if you want to help make VCF 5.0 happen: Exhibitors: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/exhibit.php Vendors: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/vendor.php Or if you're just going to be an attendee, let it be known: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/survey.php Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 19 13:23:43 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: what is a vxt2000? In-Reply-To: <004a01c128cd$f095f250$6401a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <200108191823.f7JINh300786@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Aug, Fred deBros wrote: > Just schlepped one home from the MIT flea....I dont even know how much mem > it has. It will print the amount of memory at startup. > I have a copied a xvt2000.sys image file (4.8megs)....now what? just rename > it [vxt-MAC].sys and boot from there? [vxt-MAC].SYS (or just "vxt"?) If you use some *ix to boot the beast, just run mopd(8) with the "-d" option. > what kind of graphics output is supported there? I don't know what other types of graphics are possible, but mv VXT2000+ SPX uses 1280x1024@72Hz, 8 bit planes with sync on green on the 3W3 connector. > The memory card has three empty simm slots....duh. ....and 2MB on the memory card itself. With the 4MB on the main PCB you will have 6MB. You can use normal 4MB PS/2 SIMMs with parity to expand the memory up to 18MB. > In front of the mem slot is a digital type scsi plug....any harddisk > attachment in there? No. That plug is for an obscure 3D option. > A note says F2 brings up a setup menu? F3 when the software ist loaded. > Can this thingy setup in TCPIP without a mopserver? Doubt THAT! Yes! The VXT2000 is the one and only VAX (yes, there is a VAX inside!) that can be netbooted via bootp/DHCP and tftp. But I recommend mop, as mop loads the bootimage _much_ faster. When the VXT is powered on it tries to mop-boot, if that fails it tries bootp/DHCP and restarts with mop if that fails too. >From my /etc/bootptab: vxt:\ ht=ethernet:\ ha=08002b123456:\ ip=192.168.1.55:\ sm=255.255.255.0:\ bf=/mop/vxt: And the bootimage is: lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 3 Dec 29 2000 /tftpboot/mop/08002b123456.SYS -> vxt -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 5069824 Dec 29 2000 /tftpboot/mop/vxt As the are not much fonts in the boot image, I recommend to run a font server... -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 19 13:27:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? C's punctuation is simple and logical: -Semicolons go at the end of any single line statement -Openings of loop structures do NOT get a semicolon, because a semi-colon denotes an end of an execution block, and a loop is not normally in and of itself a statement (though it can be, and you can end a loop structure with a semi-colon, and it can make sense to do this in certain circumstances!) -Loop code blocks are enclosed by {squiggly parens}, and every statement within the loop block is terminated with a semi-colon as above -Function code blocks are enclosed by squigglies, and then all the above rules apply That's it! I think "for" loops in C are semantically bunk, but they work, and you can do some interesting things with them. If you want to talk stupid puncutation, let's talk Pascal! > program in C before they get here." When you have a prof who writes > "puzzle code", like Alan Holub, undergrads are expected to follow stuff > like > while(*T++=*S++); > with NO formal preparation. Crazy. > But the program there is over-enrolled. Their approach to that is to > progressively keep increasing the volume of homework until there are > enough breakdowns to get the enrollment down. I call that sadistic. > They call that "social Darwinism". If it were so, then they are > breeding for STAMINA, not computer science skill. Good point. > If it were to live up to its claims of portability, if it were to > survive MICROS~1's perversions of it, and if they would give me > POINTERS (OK, intrinsically non-portable), then it could be a > reasonable approach. My feelings on Java (and other web technologies like Flash) is that it turns the web into merely an application delivery vehicle. The instantaneous nature of the web as a content delivery system is lost. But then there are some things that you just can't practically do with traditional HTML technology alone (and I mean with augmentations like PHP and CGI/Perl). Allowing one to scroll realtime through a database is one example; that's something that needs a Java applet to pull off. But I digress........... Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 19 13:32:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Lastname" into "Lastname comma First", and then make them try to expand > their programs to deal with exceptions, such as "Martin Van Buren" Ugh. That's difficult at ANY level :) I wrote some software to do such a thing in FoxPro that had to parse text coming from a flat file into a database table. It had to deal with a whole lot of variations (first initials only, middle initials, Sr. or Jr. suffixes, multi-word last names like DE LA CRUZ, etc.) but it did fairly well, with only the occasional exception. But it was easy for me because I'm a MIGHTY PROGRAMMING GAWD!!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 19 13:33:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I've been planning to reserve a vendor space IMMEDIATELY after you post > the floorplan to be able to do so! And you are first in line! > It would be a tragic disappointment to not have VCF. But we certainly > can't fault you for cancellation, if that's what you have to do. I'm still trying to make something happen :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 19 13:58:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > You should meet Mike Kahn. He used an HP1600A and bascially started poking > > around inside a Nintendo to make it do mysterious things. It made for a > > very interesting VCF exhibit even if maybe only 15% of the people seeing it > > understood what was going on. > > Well, there are also some minor issues of communication. Mike's social > skills are as bad as those of the rest of us. Yes, but that's just part of his charm :) Seriously though, Mike is a good example of why I take the time and patience to understand even the most seemingly incomprehensible nerds. One could take him as being retarded, but in actuality he's a complete fucking genius who is so far above most peoples' intellects that we just can't understand the world he's in. Let's face it, some people in the computer world are socially lacking, but you stand to miss out on a lot if you don't take the time to try to connect with them. So no matter how annoying some people can be, I don't hold that against them, because somewhere behind that wall of inarticulation can be some pretty fascinating thought processes. 99% of the list don't know who Mike Kahn is, so for your edification, he's this little oriental guy with a Fu Manchu beard/mustache thing going on, who roams around the hamfests in the Sillycon Valley striking up endlessly babbling conversations with random victims causing them sometimes excrutiating uncomfortableness as they try to determine the most practical way to ditch him (I had to pass him off to Doug Coward at VCF 3.0 because I just had to get away; Doug later came to me asking me why I did that to him...sorry Doug! :) I met him around the time I was promoting VCF 2.0 when he was working on his Nintendo Mutilator (as he called it). At first I was thinking the guy was just completely insane, but I decided that there was probably something there beneath the surface worth getting at, so I stuck with the conversation. Eventually I would get antsy and figure out some fairly polite way to get rid of him. Anyway, it took me a few times in bumping into him at the ham fests to figure out that he was truly a unique and extremely gifted individual. It turns out he really was doing some interesting stuff with his Mutilator, which was really sort of an analog paradigm for programming on a digital computer. More specifically, it allows you to tweak a digital system using analog controls (potentiometers, sliders, etc). It also was the embodiment of a programming schema that exists and can only really be understood in his own mind, though you can see what he's getting at if you try hard enough. I think if some really high-up computer science guru like, say, Donald Knuth spent a month with him, two things would happen: 1) Donald Knuth would go insane but 2) before that they would probably have come up with a truly revolutionary new paradigm for software development. It also turns out that Mike invented a camera that can take highly contrasted pictures using only analog techniques (no digital processing) and in realtime. He showed me the patent he was awarded for it, as well as a picture he took with it of the burning Man at one of the Burning Man festivals at night where you could vividly see both the flames and all the activity around it. Not even the Minds of Minolta could come up with this, and he did. One smart mofo. So take the time to talk to the weirdos. Sometimes they are smarter than you think, you smug and arrogant bastards :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Sun Aug 19 15:07:33 2001 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: 6502 vs 68000 In-Reply-To: <200108191714.MAA36574@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 07:26:19 -0600 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > > There are lots of things one CPU could do more simply than another, > but, normally, there were others that went the other way. I remember, > back in '80 or so, demonstrating that the 4 MHz 6502 was considerably > faster and more code efficient than the 8 MHz 68000. This was, of > course, because the 8 MHz 68K had to fetch two words just to get its > opcode, though it didn't take long to execute it once the opcode and > operands were in place. In 1980, most 8-bit CPUs were more efficient that the 68000 in terms of code size as long as you limited yourself to 64K. When you got past 64K, the 68000 scaled smoothly while programming the 8-bitters became a Chinese fire drill. Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 19 15:15:14 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <1471.631T750T2324643optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 19, 2001 03:52:15 AM Message-ID: <200108192015.QAA19116@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Tony Duell skrev: > > >There aren't many microprocessors without an accumulator. But things like > >the PDP11 don't have one. I can add R1 to R3, or one memory location to > >another, or... No restriction on one of the operands being in a special > >registers. > > I take it you're no big fan of load/store designs? I can't speak for Tony, but for me it depends upon the chip---both the 6809 and 6502 are load/store, but I vastly prefer the 6809 to the 6502. I'm ambivilent towards the 8080/Z80, not having worked with it enough to form an opinion. > >Eh? Yes, there are some special-cases on the 6809 (MUL, for example). But > >the 6502 has many more. Heck, on the 6502 you have to use the X register > >for one kind of indrect and indexed addressing and the Y register for the > >other form (on the 6809 you can do any addressing mode with X or Y (or > >with U or S for that matter). On the 6809 you can transfer values between > >any 2 registers of the same size. On the 6502 you can't even transfer > >between X and Y without destroying the accumulator contents (IIRC). > > I was specifically thinking of all the different registers and the way you > combine them. But I've not got enough experience to make any insightful > comparisons. It doesn't really have that many registers (say, compared to the 8086). There are two 8 bit accumulators, A and B (which can be used as a single 16-bit register for certain operations), two 16-bit index registers, X and Y, and two 16-bit stack registers, S and U, which can also be used as index registers (and S is used to store return addresses and registers upon an interrupt). Then there is CC (condition codes) and DP (direct page, which can be pretty much ignored) and that's it. The accumulators are used to load, process, and store data, and for the most part, can be used interchangably. The index registers point to data, and the stack registers are there to temporarily save and restore data across subroutine calls (although U can be used as an extra index register) and again, the index registers can for the most part, be used interchangably. The two stack registers can't, but that's because S is used by the CPU and U is meant for the user (but other than that, they work the same). It's a fun instruction set to use. -spc (The 8086 however, is interesting ... 8-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 19 15:29:39 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010819132330.024d8690@209.185.79.193> At 11:58 AM 8/19/01 -0700, Sellam wrote: >Yes, but that's just part of his charm :) Seriously though, Mike is a >good example of why I take the time and patience to understand even the >most seemingly incomprehensible nerds. One could take him as being >retarded, but in actuality he's a complete fucking genius who is so far >above most peoples' intellects that we just can't understand the world >he's in. This has been my experience as well. The 'natual vision' camera that was not affected by extreme backlight situations was (and is) pretty amazing. I'm still surprised that none of the current cam corder folks haven't picked it up. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 19 15:33:13 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Aug 19, 2001 09:57:52 AM Message-ID: <200108192033.QAA19137@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" once stated: > > > The syntax is extremely simple, I think Tony would like it. A lot of > > people superficially describe it as "a lot of parantheses", and that's true. > > There's not a lot of semicolons, three kinds of parantheses, hashes and the > > like. I've never been a fan of LISP because of all the parenthesis, and I've rarely, if ever, have come across LISP code that I could follow. Then again, it could be that I'm not overly familiar with it, or I just have a problem following other people's code 8-) > I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? Perl. > > OTOH, I also thought that it (and the teacher) encouraged some very dangerous > > programming techniques, such as recursivity. > > Encouraged? Some of the teachers won't let their students do a program to > count to 10 WITHOUT recursion! They can't imagine doing something like > Fibonacci sequence WITHOUT using recursion. How can you do a non-trivial > program with recursion without stack overflow? It depends upon the nature of the problem and the system you are running it on. I was never a big fan of recursion, simply because I never saw a need for it---the examples given were too trivial and wasteful of resources. A good example for recursion is parsing expressions: expr ::= term | term + term | term - term term ::= factor | factor * factor | factor / factor factor ::= NUMBER | `(' expr `)' A factor can be a number, or an expression itself in parenthesis. Makes it easier to parse. Another area I've used it in is traversing the filesystem doing some processing (say, looking for files owned by a particular user and calculating the space used (`find' and `du' don't quite cut it for this operation): size addfiles(directory start,user id) { size sum = 0 for each entry in start do if entry is owned by id { if entry is file sum += sizeof(file) else if entry is directory sum += addfiles(entry,id) } done return sum } How do you avoid stack overflows? Either make sure the worse case will fit in the memory space allocated to the stack, or have virtual memory with overcommit 8-P > NOPE. NO preparatory course, nor stated prerequisite! > It's worse than that. The profs doing the intro course have decided on > Scheme, but the ones teaching the next course (Data Structures and > Algorithms teach that class using C. When challenged as to the > inconsistency, their response was, "well, they should already know how to > program in C before they get here." When you have a prof who writes > "puzzle code", like Alan Holub, undergrads are expected to follow stuff > like > while(*T++=*S++); > with NO formal preparation. Well, that *is* a C idiom and if the students are expected to know C upon arrival, then the student should know the C idioms. But my biggest complaint about C teachers is forcing the students to learn the C precidence table. I've been programming in C for over ten years and *I* still don't know it (when it doubt, parenthesize it). > > Now it seems to be all about Java, though. =/ > > If it were to live up to its claims of portability, if it were to survive > MICROS~1's perversions of it, and if they would give me POINTERS (OK, > intrinsically non-portable), > then it could be a reasonable approach. Why are pointers intrinsically non-portable? I've written C code (with pointers) that has compiled cleanly and worked across several different systems (MS-DOS, OS/2, AmigaOS, Unix, Windows). It's not pointers that are intrinsically non-portable; it's assumptions like 16 bit integers and 32 bit longs that lead to intrinsically non-portable code (and if I see stuff like DWORD or LPTRSZ I know it's not going to be portable). -spc (Have compiler, will program) From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 19 15:43:16 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Aug 19, 2001 11:02:17 AM Message-ID: <200108192043.QAA19153@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" once stated: > > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Sounds like Italy (the driving anyway!) I do recall that when I learned to > > program in Fortran the school had a you send a deck of cards in that they > > would run and then you would get your results back. It did make you stop > > and think. Still I have to agree that teachers have a lot more influence > > than language environment. > > Reminds me: > I had a student in the mid/late 80s, who "obviously didn't have the > prerequisites". She didn't know what a source file was, what an object, > nor executable file was, hadn't ever heard of a "compiler" nor a "linker". > But, it turned out that she had a decent grasp of algorithms. It > turned out that she had had multiple programming language courses at Cal > State Hayward, where she had learned the words "deck" and "results". In the early 90s I was in a Unix Systems Programming class, with prerequisites of Data Structures, Compiler Writing (undergrad level) and a working knowledge of C. In other words, it's an upper level course. So the professor was talking about how a program is typically laid out in memory when it's loaded and running---here's the text segment, here's the data segment, stack and heap. A student then raises her hand and the professor calls on her. ``Excuse me professor,'' she said. ``But where do the comments go?'' I've rarely seen the professor's expression on other people, and usually only when hit upside the head with a 2x4 [1]. It took him a full two minutes to finally recover and then he went onto a digression about the compilation process, something that should have sunk in during Compiler Writing. > I confronted one of the profs there, and asked him why they didn't at > least teach their students about compilers. His response: "that's for > TECHNICIANS and OPERATORS. Computer scientists don't need to know that > petty stuff." Heh. There were a few professors I had like that. One that taught Software Engineering, hated programming, and his stuff would only work on a machine that was infinitely fast and had an infinite amount of memory. > Keep in mind that students don't need to continue to use the language > that they started with for the rest of their careers! > If they start with one language and then very early on, switch to another, > then they have the possibility of NOT developing baby duck syndrome, and > of haviong a better understanding of how languages work. I fortunately learned early on (even before college) that there were families of similar languages and there are only a few families: procedural (Fortran, BASIC, C, Pascal, Lisp, Forth), functional (Haskel, ML, /bin/sh (to a degree), Lisp, Forth), object oriented (which came out of procedural mostly, Smalltalk, C++, Jaba, Lisp, Forth), assembly (pick your chip) and Lisp (Lisp, Forth, Postscript). And once you know a few, picking up a new one is no big deal (okay, what's the syntatic surgar for this one?) -spc (And writing portable code is actually easy if you start out trying to write portable code ... ) From rdd at smart.net Sun Aug 19 16:16:58 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > While I agree that BASIC is a good starting point to get into > programming, I think that BASIC itself is a lot more powerful than Why not just start out with Modula-2? Of course, Forth, Perl, C, VAX Macro, etc. could all be learned by beginners if they had good instructors to teach them - or, if they were intelligent enough to read a few books on their own. On can have a bad instructor who can make BASIC or FORTRAN seem difficult. > most people give it credit. I've written any number of database BASIC is also a lot more annoying than a lot of people give it credit for being. Have you ever had to convert lengthy code written in non-structured BASIC, that has all two-digit character names, multiple statements per line, gotos and gosubs all over the place - many of which go no where after earlier code changes, etc.? It's a nuisance to maintain and work with. Repeat after me: "BASIC sucks more than rap music." > applications in compiled PowerBasic over the years, some of them > fully able to read/write dBase III format files. One of them was a Aaaccck. I had to work at a place with something like that - no dount a result of very bad karma. Further proof that it was very bad karma is the fact that they were using UNIBASIC on a PC running SCO OpenServer (bletch!), and didn't understand why SCO's flavors of UNIX are broken, which, of course, also explains why they also liked Microsoft and were considering installing some sort of Foxpro for for SCO. (double bletch!) They created occasional "custom reports" by having someone using a PC running Windoze download the .dbf files and use Foxpro on that to creat the reports. (tripple bletch!) Of course, I engineered a solution using Perl, Solaris, Oracle, Apache, etc. that simplified everything. :-) :-) :-) Database programming in BASIC is a pain, and it leads to all sorts of bad habits, like an insistence on continuing to do database programming in BASIC instead of converting those DBF files into data useable by a real, and useful, databases like PostgreSQL or Oracle. Is not the problem that too many people have uses BASIC for applications that should have been written in COBOL? ;-) > modular inventory/sales type program that comprised of nearly a dozen > seperate programs that were only called when needed. The whole > application took up less than 1meg of disk space and was replaced by > a similar program written in FoxPro that took up nearly 10 times the Aye, FoxPro, the database software of choice for clueless luzers. ;-) > disk space and lacked in quite a few areas that the original program > was able to handle. I wrote my own functions for sorting and file > handling and such based on the demands of each individual application. Still, just think how much more flexibility you'd have gained with a useful database like PostgreSQL or Oracle... even using COBOL would have been a cleaner solution. Just my 2-cents worth. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:53:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108190705.AAA09964@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Aug 19, 1 00:05:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/604fb988/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:57:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C In-Reply-To: <200108191035.f7JAZ9200438@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Aug 19, 1 12:35:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1079 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/02c5e716/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:49:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010819013526.E15443-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 19, 1 01:49:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/d4a2aee4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:33:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <1471.631T750T2324643optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 19, 1 03:52:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/0261359d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:34:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Gateway Z80 ISA cards In-Reply-To: from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 19, 1 06:37:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/504d5c14/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:43:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning for ClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010818222905.A5721@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Aug 18, 1 10:29:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2000 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/6cc9cd67/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 14:46:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 19, 1 09:57:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/d02b4f78/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 15:35:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 19, 1 11:58:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/844a3b98/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 19 16:03:58 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <003901c128f2$778cd700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > So take the time to talk to the weirdos. Yes, I think seeing 'Artifacts' by Woody and Steine Vasulkas on the SIGGRAPH '80 video was an experience like you're describing here. ( http://www.siggraph.org/publications/video-review/1_36.html ) Speaking of 'Articacts', did Mike make it to Christine's book? ( http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp ?sid=09FEA1CD-7F21-45C2-9D83-A8DB713F76EA &ttype=2&tid=8499 ) John A. No genius in correlating the titles; its a coincidence. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Aug 19 16:05:33 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010816191843.02482100@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <13668418547.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Who has them, where, and how much are they asking? ^_^ ------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Aug 19 16:29:30 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Aug 19, 1 07:53:40 pm" Message-ID: <200108192129.OAA10710@stockholm.ptloma.edu> >> unused_zp = $02 >> stx unused_zp >> ldy unused_zp > Let me see if I understand this. I have 2 registers on the same chip. > Presumably a chip with data paths between at least some of the registers. > But to transfer data from one of them to another of them, I have to write > it out to external memeory, and then use a second instruction to load it > back in. And they're 2 byte instructions, right. > So that's at least 6 memory cycles (2 to fetch the opcodes, 2 to fetch : > Heck, I've spent much of my life admiring designs where there are fast > data paths between just about every section, and even designing machines > like that. And where said data paths are in use whenever possible (look > at the PDP11/45 CPU schematics and microcode flows for a good, simple, > example of what I mean). And you expect me to like the above... You clipped the part where I said ;-), Tony :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If your happiness depends on anyone else, you've got a problem. -- R. Bach - From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 19 16:35:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: 6502 vs 68000 References: Message-ID: <001801c128f6$ef693580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You're exactly right, Paul. There are few reasons to argue price/performance issues between two processors so different when a task that either could do is the target. However, if one knows enough about the processor and enough about the task, one isn't saddled with such tasks as could be better done on the other architecture. Once in a while, however, you have to do what's got to be done with what you're already using for the rest of the task, and that's when the inefficiency of using a big guy to do the small job bites you. The majority of tasks done by micros can be handled quite easily with small, underimplemented, 8-bitters. When you do have to use a bigger processor, it's often preferable to use a co-processor of some sort. The MOT folks realized this and provided a part just for that sort of task, in the form of the 68120/121, which is a 6803 CPU with peripherals, with a built-in 6834 two-ported RAM (semaphore registers). more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul R. Santa-Maria" To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:07 PM Subject: 6502 vs 68000 > > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 07:26:19 -0600 > > From: "Richard Erlacher" > > Subject: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > > > > There are lots of things one CPU could do more simply than another, > > but, normally, there were others that went the other way. I remember, > > back in '80 or so, demonstrating that the 4 MHz 6502 was considerably > > faster and more code efficient than the 8 MHz 68000. This was, of > > course, because the 8 MHz 68K had to fetch two words just to get its > > opcode, though it didn't take long to execute it once the opcode and > > operands were in place. > > In 1980, most 8-bit CPUs were more efficient that the 68000 in terms of > code size as long as you limited yourself to 64K. When you got past 64K, > the 68000 scaled smoothly while programming the 8-bitters became a Chinese > fire drill. > Yes, and the 80x86's of the late-'70's-early '80's fell between the two, being a "Chinese fire drill" either way. It was astonishing, however, to find that a $6 8-bitter performed simple tasks 10x as fast as a $150 "32-bitter." > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Monroe, Michigan USA > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 19 16:49:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Still, just think how much more flexibility you'd have gained with a >useful database like PostgreSQL or Oracle... even using COBOL would >have been a cleaner solution. I used what I had available, which was a BASIC compiler under MS-DOS, not to mention it was what I already knew. I neve said it was the best choice! It did work though and it worked better than the solution that replaced it that came from 'professional' programmers. Mine was done on the side and was a definate improvement over what had been used before, which was an archaic proprietary piece of software that was a royal pain to use, being run from a mini and accessed by way of a terminal. If it hadn't been my BASIC programs giving them the little push, who knows when the would have replaced it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ncherry at home.com Sun Aug 19 18:23:23 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Z80, CP/M & TCP/IP? References: Message-ID: <3B804A6B.4B8EA773@home.com> Does anyone know where I can find the source to a TCP/IP stack for the Z80 and or CP/M and ethernet ? -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From zaft at azstarnet.com Sun Aug 19 18:14:43 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Identify this mystery Q-Bus board! Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010819161012.027c2890@pop.azstarnet.com> I have an unidentified Q-Bus board that I'm hoping someone will recognize. it's a quad-height (i.e. full-size) board. On the component side is says "RELIABILITY ASSOCIATES" and (c) 1987 and "TIME SLOT CONTROLLER". It has two 40-pin headers and a 20-pin header and two pushbutton switches. Chipwise, it's got a 68000RC10, a couple of 68450s, three MK68564s, and a 74S409N, all socketed, and a host of PALs and MSI/SSI chips. Anybody know what this is? Also does anyone have data sheets for 74S409? Gordon Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 18:23:20 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > C's punctuation is simple and logical: > -Semicolons . . . > That's it That's a good explanation of C's use of semi-colons. But it gets messier when you explain some of the context sensitive characters, such as & or *. In order to avoid the character set availability problems that plagued APL, they used digraphs, such as "/*", and had some characters having MANY different meanings, depending on context. > I think "for" loops in C are semantically bunk, but they work, and you can > do some interesting things with them. I usually introduce the "for" statement after doing "while" for a while, and explain what "for" does in terms of the equivalent "while" loop. > > But the program there [(UC Berkeley)] is over-enrolled. Their > > approach to that is to > > progressively keep increasing the volume of homework until there are > > enough breakdowns to get the enrollment down. I call that sadistic. > > They call that "social Darwinism". If it were so, then they are > > breeding for STAMINA, not computer science skill. > Good point. They (UCBerkeley) have also done things such as having a calculus prerequisite in courses that do NOT use any calculus. For the sole purpose of reducing by irrelevant criteria how many people can take the course. Because of the IRRELEVANT calculus prerequisite (there are some other courses where it could make sense), they won't accept for transfer courses from other schools that are IDENTICAL other than not having a calculus prerequisite. UCBerkeley has some GREAT graduate projects. But I don't think that they are a credible example for how to introduce people to computers. Their lower division undergrad CS is way too flawed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 19 18:28:00 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Lastname" into "Lastname comma First", and then make them try to expand > > their programs to deal with exceptions, such as "Martin Van Buren" On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Ugh. That's difficult at ANY level :) One of the main goals of that assignment is to get through the concept that no matter what you do, something else can still come along that your program can't handle as well as a human can. > suffixes, multi-word last names like DE LA CRUZ, etc.) but it did fairly > well, with only the occasional exception. > But it was easy for me because I'm a MIGHTY PROGRAMMING GAWD!!! who will be the first into the molten iron? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 19 19:14:40 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Need capacitor value translated Message-ID: Ok you people that use this everyday - I have a ceramic disk capacitor from a power supply that went south - brown and cracked. I can read the etched value on it though but it's been a long time since I've seen this type of marking. It has as follows: (first line unreadable, looks like MDE) 2200M X7B or X78 1KV I see it as 1 kilovolt, that's obvious but I've been using the new system that is in picofarads and not sure if that is supposed to mean 2200 uF or if it is some old way of marking 2200 pF. Also what would be the current marking number system equivelant (ie 222, 224, etc) for replacement. Most of my "junk box" parts are new system markings and I am not in the mood for a fire or replacement of other items if I get it wrong. When put on a cap tester I get 100pf which I feel is wrong and may be due to a shorted state or something. Capacitors have never been my strong point in identification. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010819/429a4999/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 19 19:16:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Z80, CP/M & TCP/IP? References: <3B804A6B.4B8EA773@home.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1290d$5b62cd80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There was a lot of chat on comp.os.cpm about half a year or so ago regarding this topic. I don't know whether/where the newsgroup is archived now that DEJA doesn't do complete news any more. It seems to me that at least one person knew of a public domain IP stack for CP/M. I personally didn't pursue it, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Cherry" To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 5:23 PM Subject: Z80, CP/M & TCP/IP? > Does anyone know where I can find the source to a TCP/IP stack for the > Z80 and or CP/M and ethernet > ? > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 19 19:23:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else References: Message-ID: <002e01c1290e$68758de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see inline comments, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: "XenoSoft" Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 10:57 AM Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else > I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? > I learned it as "Lots of Irritating Single Parentheses" although words like "inane" and "stinking" have crept in there as well. Dick > > > OTOH, I also thought that it (and the teacher) encouraged some very dangerous > > programming techniques, such as recursivity. > > Encouraged? Some of the teachers won't let their students do a program to > count to 10 WITHOUT recursion! They can't imagine doing something like > Fibonacci sequence WITHOUT using recursion. How can you do a non-trivial > program with recursion without stack overflow? > > > > But C at arrival? Well, if there are preparation courses, I can see why. There > > are a lot of people who have been using and programming computers since they > > were kids, and they have an initial advantage over the newcomers. So as not to > > bore the already-experienced, I can see why the real courses should start with > > such a prerequisite as long as there is a preparatory course for those not > > born with a joystick in their hand. > > NOPE. NO preparatory course, nor stated prerequisite! > It's worse than that. The profs doing the intro course have decided on > Scheme, but the ones teaching the next course (Data Structures and > Algorithms teach that class using C. When challenged as to the > inconsistency, their response was, "well, they should already know how to > program in C before they get here." When you have a prof who writes > "puzzle code", like Alan Holub, undergrads are expected to follow stuff > like > while(*T++=*S++); > with NO formal preparation. > > But the program there is over-enrolled. Their approach to that is to > progressively keep increasing the volume of homework until there are > enough breakdowns to get the enrollment down. I call that sadistic. > They call that "social Darwinism". If it were so, then they are breeding > for STAMINA, not computer science skill. > > > > Now it seems to be all about Java, though. =/ > > If it were to live up to its claims of portability, if it were to survive > MICROS~1's perversions of it, and if they would give me POINTERS (OK, > intrinsically non-portable), > then it could be a reasonable approach. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > www.merritt.edu/~fcisin > > From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 19 20:00:00 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 19, 2001 08:46:33 PM Message-ID: <200108200100.VAA19327@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > Had I been _giving_ the course, I might have taught the 80386, etc. But > the final exam would have been about the 68020. Of course I'd have > provided Motorola data sheets for said exam. The idea would be to test > not what the students could remember but what they could work out. The > latter is a much more useful skill. And the students would probably scream bloody murder to the Dean. I used to bitch and moan about the stupidity of classes at college [1], until one day one of the staff reported that the Dean of the CompSci department kept getting students in his office often complaining about the difficulty of so-and-so's course and it's unfair to them that the course is so difficult whine whine whine ... so of course the instructor was told to make the class easier. Or the students complained that they weren't learning [insert current industry fad here] and how they were going to be unemployable whine whine whine ... I don't like it either. -spc (``Is this going to be on the test? They why the #@#$@ are you even mentioning it?'') From west at tseinc.com Mon Aug 20 08:41:29 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else References: <200108200100.VAA19327@conman.org> Message-ID: <008301c1297d$d2733160$0101a8c0@jay> I've been following this thread on assembly, thought I'd throw in my 2 millidollars worth... First, someone said assembler programmers were thought of as "lower rung" or "lesser" programmers by higher level language programmers. I saw just the opposite in my experience. All through high school and college and later in the workforce, assembler programmers were definitely thought of as the "magic gods", and almost had a mythical status as gurus. Why? Because they not only understood the program, they understood the machine. An analogy is - if someone is truely an expert at working on and rebuilding carbuerators, that doesn't mean that they know much about the car as a whole - they need to understand the whole car, engine, exhaust systems, drivetrain, etc. to really make the whole thing "sing". As an extention of that - note that people who work on carbs almost always know the rest of the car intimately. Why should programming be any different? Unfortunately, some higher level programmers that had the capability of doing in-line assembler thought it a trivial language, because they only used it for a few instructions to do one particular piece of their code, rather than designing assembly code from the top down as a standalone program. This gives them a bad view of what assembler really is all about and what it can do. Second, the lack of any assembler understanding by most of todays modern programmers just slays me. I have seen many kids graduate from college today that haven't the foggiest idea of what an interrupt is, how a status register works, or even what an 8250 UART is. This does them a terrible disservice IMHO. I even talked to one guy who wrote a program years ago in VB that talked to modems (his program basically set up a poor mans network over dialup or directly connected serial lines). The truely SAD part was since he did everything in VB, he really didn't have the slightest clue as to whos shoulders his code was standing on so to speak. He thought his code was slick - and it WAS. But packetizing data with checksums in BASIC? That's fine if memory and cpu power are not a factor in the equation. Not using assembler where assembler is a good fit breeds exactly the type of thing that many of us on the list lament - inefficient and bloated code. The idea is these days, "time to market". Most programmers today would rather write a subsection of code in VB because that's what they know, even though it could run 1000% faster and much more efficiently if they had taken the time to do it RIGHT. Thought processes like this are why windoze takes such huge resources for a single user, when for example RT11 with 8 user sessions can be done in 32k or less quite handily. Many modern programmers argue this - because they think their VB code is elegent and efficient. The simple fact is (and I don't mean this as an affront), they are dealing from a position of ignorance. Their code may in fact be quite elegent. But if they'd take the time to look at the resulting code that it gets compiled into - the way the machine sees their code, they would see what a convoluted mess it becomes at Load&Go time. If they took the time to learn assembler, and actually wrote a standalone program from top down, then they would be able to compare it with the compiler generated code and I KNOW the "light would go on in their heads". All that being said, VB certainly has it's place. However, they might consider assembler for two reasons (in places where it makes sense) - 1) for speed, efficiency, and elegence, and 2) for a more well-rounded appreciation and understanding of their art, VB included. I myself have learned and programmed in more languages than I can possibly count, and I for one - would rather program in assembler than anything. Period. And yes, on occasion where the situation dictates, I *DO* write in VB. Regards, Jay West From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 19 20:55:48 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: Altair32 Posted Message-ID: Hello, all: I'm posting working code and pre-built binary, along with a binary image of Altair BASIC 3.2. It works very well. I have no way yet to guage relative speed to a real Altair, but it seems pretty responsive. What I'd like to do is ask an Altair owner on this list to create some sort of benchmark program and run it on his real Altair. Then, I'll run it on the Altair32 and that'll give me a basis for improving the speed of the emulator. Thanks again and enjoy. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 19 20:57:44 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010819185703.029fb910@209.185.79.193> Would I be correct in assuming that a MXV11 and a KDF11 would be the minimum PDP-11/23 that will talk "ODT" ? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 19 21:01:12 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: SPARCStations anyone? References: <13668418547.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <020e01c1291b$fd06c660$09c7fec7@bofh> Hey, I didn't know he had more than one! *laughs* Daniel, if it was the only one Chuck had, it's already on its way to me. g. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:05 PM Subject: Re: SPARCStations anyone? > Who has them, where, and how much are they asking? ^_^ > > ------- > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 21:04:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:32 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question In-Reply-To: PDP-11/23 question (Chuck McManis) References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010819185703.029fb910@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <15232.28727.215849.187176@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 19, Chuck McManis wrote: > Would I be correct in assuming that a MXV11 and a KDF11 would be the > minimum PDP-11/23 that will talk "ODT" ? I would say yes. A quad-width 11/23 board (KDF11-B) comes to mind with its onboard console SLU, but then you'e need a memory board, so...still two boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From foo at siconic.com Sun Aug 19 21:10:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <003901c128f2$778cd700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: > Speaking of 'Articacts', did Mike make it to Christine's book? > ( http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp > ?sid=09FEA1CD-7F21-45C2-9D83-A8DB713F76EA > &ttype=2&tid=8499 ) I don't believe so. Although he would've made for a fascinating subject :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Aug 19 23:13:58 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: FREE: two RX01 dual floppy drive units Message-ID: <20010819231358.O26783@mrbill.net> I've got two RX01s, free for pickup in Austin, TX. Email if interested. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 20 00:22:17 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Saturday Night Dinner References: Message-ID: <3B809E89.6E47F43E@rain.org> How many people will be attending the Saturday night VCF 5.0 dinner? So far, I haven't heard of anyone collecting names of people who will attend and it seems like a good idea to make reservations early. So if you are planning on attending, please let me know and I'll plan on making the reservations around the 1st of September. From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Aug 20 00:46:10 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <008301c1297d$d2733160$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Okay, time for me to bite on this thread. Jay wrote (in part): "...the lack of any assembler understanding by most of todays modern programmers just slays me. I have seen many kids graduate from college today that haven't the foggiest idea of what an interrupt is, how a status register works, or even what an 8250 UART is..." Jay came close, but somewhat missed the mark, because it's completely possible to write nontrivial programs in assembler and still not have any notion of what is _really_ going on with the underlying machine. I've written three operating systems in _nothing_ but assembly language -- a simple disk monitor for the DG Nova, a BASIC timesharing system on the Nova, and a chunk of the OS for the BTI 8000. I've also written them in BCPL, C, and MSL with requisite bits cobbled together in assembler. Regardless of the level of abstraction presented by the language, building a system that worked well required an understanding of the underlying machine at a level _below_ that presented by the instruction set architecture. Certainly, slinging assembly language for a given machine always gave me a better understanding of what a code generator for the architecture in question would probably be doing (although I was frequently annoyed to find that it had done something suboptimal), but by the same token I watched _many_ people write assembly language code that was semantically correct but which took poor advantage of the machine because they didn't understand the implications of the implementation decisions they were making. Understanding what's going on in the underlying machine -- not just the CPU, but the way the CPU transfers data to memory, the way the I/O bus (or busses) behave and what's going on with the TLB (if you've got one) is what's critical to making the machine "sing". To put it in a slightly different perspective, there are machines out there that I'd be nuts to write assembly code for, save for very, very specific cases. Even a modestly competent compiler will do a _far_ better job on generating code for a superscaler machine, especially if the machine can do multiple issue. Scheduling instructions by hand to avoid slips and stalls on anything but very small hunks of code (say on the order of maybe twice the number of pipeline stages) is generally nuts, and it goes directly to insane when you thrown in speculative execution, TBCs and other weirdness -- but that doesn't relieve me of the responsibility to understand the underlying machine when it comes to building my code. Sometime in the early-to-mid 80's things started going to hell. I had to chastise a CPU architect because he'd come up with a scheme that would have required 1.2 seconds to purge the TLB. When I told him that such a latency was insane he countered by informing me that they'd analyzed the source of the current version of the system and found only two occurrences of the purge instruction -- one in the initialization code and one in the (duh) scheduler. His rational was simple: Since the frequency of the instruction in a very large body of code was _two_ it must not be executed very often. Later I turned down the lead for Sun's trusted OS project when I met the existing team of four and found that one of them was a former database engineer and another had worked in diagnostics but "...transferred to operating systems because [she] didn't like working close to the hardware...". "Hi, I don't like talking to hardware, but I want to work on operating systems." It was enough to stagger the mind. The situation hasn't improved. When working on the PlayStation II core I was amazed to find that I had sixty-odd people on staff and only _two_ of them understood the significance or purpose of an address translation unit or why a PTE would need to have a valid bit and why the _software_ would like that valid bit to be stuffed somewhere on one end or the other of the PTE. Most of the ones who had received their (usually advanced) degrees in the prior two years didn't even understand the concept of demand paging -- virtual memory was just some sort of magic mojo that allowed code and data to occupy more space than was available in physical memory. One guy thought that it was done with on-the-fly data compression. I'd love to see everyone take a course in assembly language, but by the same token I'd like to see them do it on bare hardware and have the course of instruction include a discussion of what's going on with the underlying hardware -- and then followed up with a CPU architecture course. Berkeley did this in the 70's -- the assembly course was part of the lower-division weeder series which was followed by an upper-division architecture class whenin one had to design and build a machine that implemented a subset of the PDP-11 ISA (SSI and MSI when I did it, 2901/2910 solutions were accepted about two years later). This was in the era of ten-week quarters and everyone had to work independently. These days it's semesters and people work on teams modest sized teams -- assuming they take the architecture class at all. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Mon Aug 20 02:09:37 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: tape drive question In-Reply-To: <200108171649.f7HGnIu01119@daemonweed.reanimators.org>; from fmc@reanimators.org on Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:49:18AM -0700 References: <200108171547.QAA63383@mailhost1.dircon.co.uk> <200108171649.f7HGnIu01119@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20010820100937.C14848@mail.er-grp.com> On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:49:18AM -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: > > The 7978 doesn't do anything with the autoload seals so you will have > to remove and replace them manually. Wright Line or similar seal is > probably easier to handle manually and somewhat less brittle plastic > too. > > The 7976 can handle autoload seals if present, but this doesn't really > make up for the rest of the drive. > Hmm, first time I read about a 7976, care to tell more :-)? -- jht From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Aug 20 05:06:57 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: NELIAC (was: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else)) In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 09:57:52AM -0700 References: <2003.631T1000T1974973optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010820030657.B23266@eskimo.eskimo.com> > I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? Oh, yes! Look at NELIAC. Each punctuation mark has a couple of totally unrelated uses. Punctuation is crucial. (IF statements take an ELSE clause marked by "IF NOT", but you can avoid typing the IF NOT, since the comma afterward suffices to mark the ELSE clause.) To make things worse, programs are customarily printed in a compact unindented style. The simple reason for this is that NELIAC is ten years older than C, and also that (according to the spec) the compiler must use a given (simpleminded) parsing and code-generation algorithm. NELIAC is similar to C in philosophy as well as appearance. (NELIAC programs can do machine-dependent bit twiddling, and HELIAC can write its own compiler, and did for a wide variety of machines.) I find the language rather appealing, actually, although I sure wouldn't want to use it for big projects! The usual reference is: AUTHOR Halstead, Maurice H. (Maurice Howard), 1918- TITLE Machine-independent computer programming. PUB INFO Washington, Spartan Books [1962] DESCRIPTION 267 p. diagrs. 25 cm. LC SUBJECTS NELIAC (Computer program language) LCCN 62014005 /L/r84. -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Aug 20 05:25:38 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108192043.QAA19153@conman.org>; from spc@conman.org on Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 04:43:16PM -0400 References: <200108192043.QAA19153@conman.org> Message-ID: <20010820032538.C23266@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 04:43:16PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I fortunately learned early on (even before college) that there were > families of similar languages and there are only a few families: procedural > (Fortran, BASIC, C, Pascal, Lisp, Forth), functional (Haskel, ML, /bin/sh > (to a degree), Lisp, Forth), object oriented (which came out of procedural > mostly, Smalltalk, C++, Jaba, Lisp, Forth), assembly (pick your chip) and > Lisp (Lisp, Forth, Postscript). And once you know a few, picking up a new > one is no big deal (okay, what's the syntatic surgar for this one?) Mostly true but there are exceptions. Logic programming (Prolog), and maybe languages with parallelism (occam), come to mind. I know there are others. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Aug 20 05:18:21 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: tape drive question In-Reply-To: jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com's message of "Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:09:37 +0300" References: <200108171547.QAA63383@mailhost1.dircon.co.uk> <200108171649.f7HGnIu01119@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <20010820100937.C14848@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <200108201018.f7KAIL912931@daemonweed.reanimators.org> jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com wrote: > Hmm, first time I read about a 7976, care to tell more :-)? Back about 1981, HP was complacent about half-inch tape drives -- they had their 7970E design and it was a real workhorse. But it was at best a 9-track 1600 bpi drive, and customers' data storage and backup needs were getting a bit large for that -- the site I worked at back then was dealing with a 20-tape full backup, and at 13 minutes to write each tape that meant over four hours of downtime. (And this was in the days when one bad tape would make STORE give up, and we had plenty of Memorex MRX IV tapes.) So HP did a deal with Storage Technology Corporation (STC) to get an HP-IB-attached 6250 BPI tape drive to market quickly, and this device was sold as the HP 7976 starting in about 1983. We bought one back then. Every six weeks it would blow a transistor on its servo board, we would place a service call, and some lucky HP CE would come out, replace the servo board, and stand there for a couple hours with the drive open and a tape loop mounted, twiddling some adjustments in the drive while watching a scope on the floor. The first guy who did this was on the tall side and was out of the office the next day with back trouble. The second time around they sent the new guy who found he was the right height to do this standing upright. We saw him every time thereafter. Being an STC drive, it has vacuum columns. Part of the CE toolkit for the thing was a vacuum gauge which was referred to by one of the CEs as a "suck and blow meter", in a way which made it clear that from his point of view these were *the* two operational modes of the drive. The vacuum columns are lined with little glass beads that are glued to the sides of the columns. Alcohol is a solvent for this glue, so make sure you use Freon TF to clean the drive! There's a small board set in its own cage under the drive. This is the part that provides the HP-IB interface. Some numb-nuts spec'd the cage to be a little bit too small, so another tool in the CE toolkit is a hammer to force the boards into place. It was picky about tapes too (especially compared to the 7970Es). HP recommended their own tapes, which I think were re-badged Graham Epoch 480s. We wanted 3M Black Watch. Our purchasing department was of the opinion that tape was tape, which is how we got Memorex MRX IV tapes, and later they got us a box of BASF Endura tapes that really made us think the Memorex tapes were good. Anyway, we continued to have problems, and there was a finger-pointing exercise in which HP told us many of our tapes (by this point we had got the purchasing folks to get us Black Watch) had been scored. We pointed out that these tapes (being for system backups) were used exclusively on one drive, the 7976. HP countered by saying we must not be cleaning the drive properly. There was some acrimony which ended up with HP replacing our tapes and us buying a 7978 to replace the 7976. Believe it or not, this made everyone happy: things started working for us, and HP didn't need to make near as many service calls out to our site. So my take on the 7976 is that somebody should save one, that others may learn from its mistakes. -Frank McConnell From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 20 07:44:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225670@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Master of all that Sucks skrev: > > >Actually Iggy, your preferences are more irrelevant to me. Chuck's always > >been polite to me, and I respect that. Chuck *is* a righteous dude... > It amazes me how people who work with computers for a living have failed to > grasp the most basic concepts of netiquette. I'm with you, Iggy, as to a preferred quoting mode. But while I used to think of it as an netiquette issue, I now see it as a Ford vs. Chevy, Coke vs. Pepsi, Poached vs. Sunny-Side-Up... type of thing. Me, I drive Audis, drink iced tea, and eschew eggs except when disguised as cakes, Mayonaisse, etc. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 20 07:48:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225671@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I'm talking mainly about kids, but anyone who is ready to be a programmer > can be taught. But not everyone is a programmer. Those that get it are > programmers. Those that don't are users, and should remain that. ^^^^^ More like lusers.... ;-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Aug 20 07:54:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225672@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Granted, if you want to become an engineer, or in the very least a > "professional", you have to evolve beyond trial and error. But as I said, > you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I would never start > a student off in a rigorous, structured environment. What a perfect way > to turn them off. If it had ever been true that there existed a real programming labor shortage, I'd agree, we'd want to mainstream people into the field, not scare them away from it. However, from a strictly economic point of view, I don't beleive I benefit from the expansion of the programming labor pool. And I was of this mind when I was a student consultant in college, and yes indeed, I did everything I could to scare off or alienate anyone from pursuing programming as a career. One such individual was a friend of my nephew, and once I caught him digging my program listings out of the recycle bin, I was convinced the field would be better off without him. Today, he doesn't code, he's a consultant... Reards, -dq From taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil Mon Aug 20 08:47:49 2001 From: taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question In-Reply-To: <15232.28727.215849.187176@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010819185703.029fb910@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010820094447.00a441d0@crystal.nrl.navy.mil> At 10:04 PM 8/19/01 -0400, you wrote: >On August 19, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Would I be correct in assuming that a MXV11 and a KDF11 would be the > > minimum PDP-11/23 that will talk "ODT" ? > > I would say yes. A quad-width 11/23 board (KDF11-B) comes to mind >with its onboard console SLU, but then you'e need a memory board, >so...still two boards. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Laurel, MD The MXV11 has both memory and SLU, so all you need is a KDF11-A dual width CPU and the MXV11 to get a minimum system that lets you interact with ODT. Add a boot rom to the MXV11 and you're good to go. Doug From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 20 09:07:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225672@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002f01c12981$63d1d320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Unlike the '80's, nowadays, there are other things that are as important as actually knowing how, and having the needed discipline, to generate a sensible program. Today's issues are not new, but they're getting less attention than they once got. These include simple questions such as, "Which tasks can reasonably be sujected to full or partial automation"? Too often, I see folks attempting to "computerize" tasks that are insufficiently rigorous to permit them to be automated. Programs become needlessly complex when the computer is required to do the analysis that the system designer should have done, and that leads to "cut-and-try" approaches that most often fail over the long run. The real problem doesn't seem to me to lie in the dearth of programmers or engineers, though there's little overlap between those two, but rather in the dearth of competent analysts. Kids in high school can learn enough to program a well-defined task. However, they're not trained in high school to analyze a problem before attempting to solve it, and the colleges don't really do that either. Consequently, if a person hasn't learned to "be an engineer" before he's asked to do a job, he probably can't do it. Engineering is a discipline that's largely based on a personality type. That type is bent on solving problems with what's available to him/her. Not everybod comes from there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 6:54 AM Subject: RE: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > > Granted, if you want to become an engineer, or in the very least a > > "professional", you have to evolve beyond trial and error. But as I said, > > you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I would never start > > a student off in a rigorous, structured environment. What a perfect way > > to turn them off. > > If it had ever been true that there existed a real programming labor > shortage, I'd agree, we'd want to mainstream people into the field, > not scare them away from it. > > However, from a strictly economic point of view, I don't beleive I > benefit from the expansion of the programming labor pool. And I was > of this mind when I was a student consultant in college, and yes > indeed, I did everything I could to scare off or alienate anyone > from pursuing programming as a career. > > One such individual was a friend of my nephew, and once I caught him > digging my program listings out of the recycle bin, I was convinced > the field would be better off without him. > > Today, he doesn't code, he's a consultant... > > Reards, > -dq > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Aug 20 09:09:42 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: OT: 3 foot steel 19" rack... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B116D8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Please pardon the non-member (for now!) off-topic post, but... I have a 19" equipment rack, it's about 2 1/2 - 3 feet tall, dark grey, all steel. There is one guy who might take it (doubt it), otherwise it's free to first person who can come to New Haven, CT to get it... As always, reply off -list... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 20 10:09:43 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 - What are you looking for List References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B116D8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3B812837.E455A523@rain.org> Instead of waiting until the last minute (as is usual), I am trying to get stuff ready to sell, swap, and otherwise dispose of at VCF 5.0. I have too many duplicate machines including TRS-80 (Model 100s, Model 3s, etc.), Apples (II+, IIc, IIe, III Monitors, unmarked 128K Mac, Mac Plus, etc.), Vector Graphic documentation, etc., etc., etc. ... If you are looking for something and will be attending VCF 5.0, post it here so I and others can see what we can do! From jss at subatomix.com Mon Aug 20 10:24:03 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010819125148.S16476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I hope I'm not too much of an oxygen source here, but... On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. On the other hand, they're not that bad. I like Lisp-like languages. (0) Prefix notation throughout the language is nicely consistent. (1) Little or no need for precedence rules is somewhat nice. (2) Proper indentation and editor can alleviate paren hell. I guess those reasons don't really seem tera-compelling. To each, his own. > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? How about some of the darker corners of sh(1)? > Encouraged? Some of the teachers won't let their students do a > program to count to 10 WITHOUT recursion! They can't imagine doing > something like Fibonacci sequence WITHOUT using recursion. Those teachers are probably of the mathy kind. Either their imagination is limited to recursion, or they think they're being much less deceptive by using recursion instead of the special cases of it rolled into a particular language's looping constructs. Either way, it's just going to be confusing to new students. > How can you do a non-trivial program with recursion without stack > overflow? Very carefully, but it can happen. > while(*T++=*S++); Was this an actual program fragment? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Mon Aug 20 10:24:47 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010819194705.P16955-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > > BASIC is also a lot more annoying than a lot of people give it credit > for being. Hear, hear! A co-worker and I once wrote a program in Visual Basic that ended up being a little over 65K lines, and then we maintained it for two years. I'm now agnostic. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Aug 20 10:33:51 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: 3 foot steel 19" rack... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B116DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I now have a taker for this... (Wow, that was quick!) And I signed up for the mailing list too :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: David Woyciesjes ! Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:10 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: OT: 3 foot steel 19" rack... ! ! ! Please pardon the non-member (for now!) off-topic post, but... ! ! I have a 19" equipment rack, it's about 2 1/2 - 3 feet ! tall, dark grey, all steel. There is one guy who might take ! it (doubt it), otherwise it's free to first person who can ! come to New Haven, CT to get it... ! As always, reply off -list... ! ! --- David A Woyciesjes ! --- C & IS Support Specialist ! --- Yale University Press ! --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! --- (203) 432-0953 ! --- ICQ # - 905818 ! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 20 11:17:57 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <20010819125148.S16476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On the other hand, they're not that bad. I like Lisp-like languages. > (0) Prefix notation throughout the language is nicely consistent. > (1) Little or no need for precedence rules is somewhat nice. > (2) Proper indentation and editor can alleviate paren hell. > I guess those reasons don't really seem tera-compelling. To each, his > own. They're pretty good. I would like my students to understand the concepts of precedence rules, but I would rather see a program use parentheses than to rely on the precedence rules. > > Encouraged? Some of the teachers won't let their students do a > > program to count to 10 WITHOUT recursion! They can't imagine doing > > something like Fibonacci sequence WITHOUT using recursion. > Those teachers are probably of the mathy kind. Either their imagination > is limited to recursion, or they think they're being much less deceptive > by using recursion instead of the special cases of it rolled into a > particular language's looping constructs. Either way, it's just going to > be confusing to new students. "To the man who has a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." I have seen SEVERAL products of that system who sincerely believed that ANYTHING that COULD be done with recursion SHOULD be done with recursion, including simple FOR loops. I consider recursion to be a clever/cute/curiousity, not the fundamental basis for a programming model. > > How can you do a non-trivial program with recursion without stack > > overflow? > Very carefully, but it can happen. The canonical example for explaining recursion is factorial. In anything resembling real world, a FOR loop works better. I've used recursion for "walking the tree" of a subdirectory structure. It was fun and easy, but the stack load was excessive. I eventually switched to a linked list of subdirectories with a pointer of which dirs were done chasing a pointer of new dirs being added. In order for recursion to be stable, one would want more than a 64K segment for stack. > > while(*T++=*S++); > Was this an actual program fragment? Yes. It's how C copies a string. The character at the location pointed to by the S pointer is copied to the location pointed to by the T pointer, both pointers are incremented, and it continues until the character that was copied had a value of zero (C uses null-termination to mark the end of strings). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 20 12:08:02 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > happen, leading me to believe that perhaps exhibitors and vendors from > past years are too busy this year with the economy being the way it is to > consider participating. Darn.... the George dubya Bushbooger strikes again, screwing something else up; this time the economy, and hence the VCF as a result, just so he can take credit for strengthening the economy some time from now. Yet another example of childish politicians playing games with people's incomes and lives, just for the sake of playing their childish game of politics, with the goal of winning at any cost. Hopefully one day we'll get some people with at least the intelligence of mentally retarded monkeys to inhabit the Whitehouse... well, one can hope anyway. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Aug 20 11:48:18 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: ZNR Varistor markings References: <003801c10dcb$aa4bc8a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <007d01c12997$eb68d0c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Why not remove the blown unkown Metal Oxide Varistors in the PSU unit and get an external Surge-protector with (new) varistors as a frontend to the PSU. --- European Mains Voltage Adapts slowly towards 230VAC!!!!!!! Given that the unit seems to need 240 VAC, I guess that the unit operates in Europe. Over a periode of 10+ years the mains voltage in Europe will narrow to 230 VAC. This is not likely problematic for equipment that only has a fairly straightforward powersupply. But for system with surge- protection it will mean that their protection will either become to sluggish 240v-> 230v. Or worse the protection will trigger to fast if the local mains goes from 220v --> 230v. So no matter what the original varistor type was, you may still need to adapt it to the future mains voltage in europe. By buying a good new separate surge-protector you will most likely get the right protection for the future. Remember the mains surge protection only works with a good grounded earth-connect! We once had a WAN-cable-connect into our router equipment where the cable-supplier forgot to connect the earth-connect of the overvoltage- protection-box. Within 1.5 month and two major thunderstorms it killed for more than $10,000.- of equipment. The cable-boys only came to replace the burned equipment but never checked the ground system. It took me less than half an hour to spot the problem. Fortunatly they had to pick up the bill cause I spotted their ommision ! Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Roberts To: Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:48 AM Subject: ZNR Varistor markings > Hi all, > > (And Tony Duell :^) > > Have a friends Decstation 5000 power supply with a violently blown fuse. > (8A/250V) > He is a developer of VMS Freeware (in fact the WASD web server) and has > asked me to help. > Culprit is 2 x ZNR 14K241U devices, which I believe are Metal Film > Varistors Surge Absorbers. > The numbering system seems to be obsolete as current ZNR Surge Absorbers > use a quite different system, or I've guessed wrong and they are > something else entirely, but I don't think so. > These two gadgets are wired in series with each other, then connected > across the output of the mains rectifier. > 240vac in, so they are across around 300+ vdc. > > I could just leave them out and the supply will run, but would much > rather replace them to keep the protection they offer. > Their appear to be no other faults and the history of the incident is > consistent with a switch on surge after an extended holiday (3 weeks) > following daily useage of the machine, so it's possible the reservoir > caps may be just a little leaky or the varistor was just getting tired. > > Anyone make sense of the device id so I can figure out what rating to > replace them with. > > Device looks rather like a round ceramic capacitor, but gloss black in > colour, marked with white lettering > > A Logo consisting of a small square box in top left with a capital M > inside and ZNR in caps next to it > then under it is 14K241U (or the 1's could be ell or i, hard to say). > underneath at bottom left is an reversed italic capital R with a > reversed italic capital L joined to the back main bar of the R. > To the right of this is a small letter s raised above the baseline with > the number 20 after it. > > Any help appreciated. > > Cheers > > Geoff in Oz > > From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 20 12:16:55 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 - What are you looking for List In-Reply-To: <3B812837.E455A523@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Marvin wrote: > Vector Graphic documentation, etc., etc., etc. ... If you are looking for > something and will be attending VCF 5.0, post it here so I and others can > see what we can do! Marvin, I will be unable to attend VCF 5.0, but am potentially interested in the Vector Graphic documentation. Can you let me know what is available, please? - don From fernande at internet1.net Mon Aug 20 12:42:14 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( References: Message-ID: <3B814BF6.972D0715@internet1.net> George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the economy over night. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA R. D. Davis wrote: > Darn.... the George dubya Bushbooger strikes again, screwing something > else up; this time the economy, and hence the VCF as a result, just so > he can take credit for strengthening the economy some time from now. > > Yet another example of childish politicians playing games with people's > incomes and lives, just for the sake of playing their childish game of > politics, with the goal of winning at any cost. Hopefully one day > we'll get some people with at least the intelligence of mentally > retarded monkeys to inhabit the Whitehouse... well, one can hope > anyway. From DanielF at McLean.gov Mon Aug 20 13:40:07 2001 From: DanielF at McLean.gov (Foust, Daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder Message-ID: <21F580B767D8D411A6C90002B315536128303C@MCGMAIL1> My Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder card is faulty and I would like to know if it's fixable. I've tried several different keyboards and 2 motherboards so I'm certain it's the encoder. I've ran a keyboard diagnostic and it is acting as if the control key is always pushed but it is not. It does it with 3 different keyboards so it's not a "stuck key" problem. Any ideas or help much appreciated. Thank you. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 20 14:33:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( References: Message-ID: <001501c129ae$ff39a220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hopefully you've noticed that Dubya's efforts, so far, have all been directed at improving the finances of various interests, all, coincidentally, located in Texas. George-I, while no rocket scientist himself, was quite a bit smarter than George-II, but all his sons seem to have turned out more crooked than he was. This was no secret from George-I, as he started the "Desert Shield" operation on the very day that his son, Neil, came up on charges of defrauding a Colorado S&L out of billions. When Dubya set his policy regarding stem-cell research funding, it was surely not unknown to him that the majority of those "already existing viable" lines of stem-cells belonged to one Texas Bioresearch firm. It was also no secret that most of the defense contractors that would benefit from his inane "missile defense" program are in Texas. Does it surprise anyone that he allowed the mostly Texan energy conglomerates that raped the California energy-consuming public to back away quitely while he "formulated" a policy? It's not necessarily the political affiliation, but the principal state of residence, (not the bogus one, as is Wyoming with respect to the VP, who was a TX resident as little as 91 days before the convention) that has the most effect on a man's presidential conduct, methinks. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( > On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > happen, leading me to believe that perhaps exhibitors and vendors from > > past years are too busy this year with the economy being the way it is to > > consider participating. > > Darn.... the George dubya Bushbooger strikes again, screwing something > else up; this time the economy, and hence the VCF as a result, just so > he can take credit for strengthening the economy some time from now. > > Yet another example of childish politicians playing games with people's > incomes and lives, just for the sake of playing their childish game of > politics, with the goal of winning at any cost. Hopefully one day > we'll get some people with at least the intelligence of mentally > retarded monkeys to inhabit the Whitehouse... well, one can hope > anyway. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 20 14:56:39 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: <3B814BF6.972D0715@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. Yes he does. The economy is purely psychological. If enough people think it's bad, it will be bad, and vice versa. If he and the other politicrats went out and started talking about how the economy miraculously improved overnight, it would. > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > economy over night. It's obvious that g. dubya bushbooger wanted people to think the economy was worsening so that he could take credit for "fixing" the economy through various policies, such as his generous (great sarcasm intended) US$300 tax refund per person without dependents. It's not the economic policies, twiddling with the interest rates, etc. that make a difference in the economy; that's all a lot of political rot - it's psychological factors that truly account for changes in the economy. Disclaimer: I took Econ. I and II in college, and learned one thing: much of it is a lot of make believe foolishness so that economists, etc. can earn an income. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 20 14:44:07 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( References: <3B814BF6.972D0715@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001d01c129b0$7a234800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The Pres. does have quite a bit of influence on the market, and the market is the reason the economy is in the toilet at the moment. This particular president seems to be tailoring his actions to the fact he's going to take after his old-man and serve only a single term. In the meantime, he's routing as much cash to Texas as he can. I'm surprised the media haven't picked up on this. Nobody should have been surprised that the high-tech market tanked once saturation of the hardware market was reached, and once the market geniuses who pumped up the "DOT-COM" stocks finally figured out they'd been fooling themselves. The Clinton administration was able to forestall the correction yet to come, however, and the market, in several sectors, is WAY overvalued. I don't have much in stocks any more, having moved to greener pastures. I'd not be surprised to see a more general correction on the order of 75% downward in many market sectors, and unemployment figures into 20%+ for a decade or so. If you're into trading, I'd say look for issues that you can sell short. You're right in that the Pres can't FIX the economy overnight, but he can surely wreck it in a day or so. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 11:42 AM Subject: Re: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > economy over night. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > R. D. Davis wrote: > > Darn.... the George dubya Bushbooger strikes again, screwing something > > else up; this time the economy, and hence the VCF as a result, just so > > he can take credit for strengthening the economy some time from now. > > > > Yet another example of childish politicians playing games with people's > > incomes and lives, just for the sake of playing their childish game of > > politics, with the goal of winning at any cost. Hopefully one day > > we'll get some people with at least the intelligence of mentally > > retarded monkeys to inhabit the Whitehouse... well, one can hope > > anyway. > > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 20 14:53:46 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #694 In-Reply-To: <200108201721.MAA50222@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: R. D. Davis said: >Why not just start out with Modula-2? Of course, Forth, Perl, C, VAX >Macro, etc. could all be learned by beginners if they had good >instructors to teach them I'm still in the process of rewriting a bunch of horrible Perl code to run on my NeXT (and off-topic machines) to do a weekly batch text processing job. I would postulate that Perl, if allowed to be used without "use strict" and the -w switch, actually *could* forever ruin the mind of a potential programmer. (Much more so than BASIC ever could. Is that the number 9 or the character string "9"? Who knows? Who cares? Eek!) Even with those safeguards, the regular expressions could do some long-lasting damage. I dunno if this counts as a useful suggestion, but Mathematica's programming language can be used to write programs in any of the usual styles (procedural, functional, list-oriented, object-oriented). I don't know that I'd want to spring it on a beginner, though. I agree that a good instructor is key, no matter what "syntactical sugar" is chosen first. - Mark From red at bears.org Mon Aug 20 14:55:31 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: <001d01c129b0$7a234800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: I'm not naming any names, but could we please quit with the sociopolitical rantings? ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 20 15:06:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder References: <21F580B767D8D411A6C90002B315536128303C@MCGMAIL1> Message-ID: <002301c129b3$aaeb0ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's a George-Risk keyboard, made by the company in Nebraska, IIRC, and the encoder is a custom-coded version of a standard GI product. There's a fix inherently possible, but it involves wire and solder ... BEWARE! see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Foust, Daniel" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder > My Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder card is faulty and I would like to know if > it's fixable. I've tried several different keyboards and 2 motherboards so > I'm certain it's the encoder. I've run a keyboard diagnostic and it is > acting as though the control key is always pushed but it is not. It does it > with 3 different keyboards so it's not a "stuck key" problem. Any ideas or > help much appreciated. Thank you. > If you know precisely what the code produced for each key is, which shouldn't be a problem, you need simply program an MCU to produce that code set and then haywire it in place of the existing and apparently defective encoder. IIRC, the encoder was a General Instruments model, albeit custom coded, but one can take the output generated by another version of the same device and translated it via a lookup table in EPROM. This has to be done externally to the Apple][+, of course, but its not difficult to manage. You could also put a "band-aid" on it by programming a PIC or similar MCU to look only at the existing incorrect key codes and implement a firmware repair based on which key combinations are apparently wrong. I had to wrestle with this problem once, admittedly a long time ago, but the fix is still valid. If your MCU has enough ROM to look up a value for each scanned key in combination with the normally isolated keys, e.g. shift, ctl, alt, cap's lock (if there is one), then it's quite straightforward. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 13:47:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <200108200100.VAA19327@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 19, 1 09:00:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010820/33962c4e/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 20 15:08:49 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: <001d01c129b0$7a234800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Things were already starting to get worse when George W. took office. In 1789. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 20 15:27:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( References: Message-ID: <003d01c129b6$84a6dfc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You mean there's socio-political entropy too? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: Re: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( > Things were already starting to get worse when George W. took office. In > 1789. > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 20 15:28:58 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( Message-ID: In a message dated 8/20/2001 3:17:26 PM Central Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > The Pres. does have quite a bit of influence on the market, and the market is > the reason the economy is in the toilet at the moment. This particular > president seems to be tailoring his actions to the fact he's going to take > after > his old-man and serve only a single term. In the meantime, he's routing as > much > cash to Texas as he can. I'm surprised the media haven't picked up on this. > > Nobody should have been surprised that the high-tech market tanked once > saturation of the hardware market was reached, and once the market geniuses > who > pumped up the "DOT-COM" stocks finally figured out they'd been fooling > themselves. The Clinton administration was able to forestall the > correction yet > to come, however, and the market, in several sectors, is WAY overvalued. I > don't have much in stocks any more, having moved to greener pastures. I'd > not > be surprised to see a more general correction on the order of 75% downward > in > many market sectors, and unemployment figures into 20%+ for a decade or so. > If > you're into trading, I'd say look for issues that you can sell short. > > You're right in that the Pres can't FIX the economy overnight, but he can > surely > wreck it in a day or so. > > Dick > > perhaps we should start heating up some molten iron for him? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010820/a619bcf4/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 13:43:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Need capacitor value translated In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Aug 19, 1 07:14:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010820/b72579de/attachment.ksh From root at jade.tseinc.com Mon Aug 20 16:05:32 2001 From: root at jade.tseinc.com (Charlie Root) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108202105.QAA57841@jade.tseinc.com> YEAH!!! The idea of changing to the other processor for the exam is soooo perfect! Kudos! Jay West From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 20 11:24:35 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: <20010819194705.P16955-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <01Aug20.171150edt.119059@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> on 8/20/01 11:24 AM, Jeffrey S. Sharp at jss@subatomix.com wrote: > On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: >> BASIC is also a lot more annoying than a lot of people give it credit >> for being. > Hear, hear! A co-worker and I once wrote a program in Visual Basic that > ended up being a little over 65K lines, and then we maintained it for two > years. I'm now agnostic. Programming in VB is totally different than regular BASIC. It's a totally different approach with attaching snippets of code to individual buttons and such. I bought the first version when it came out and didn't care for it. It might be nice for tossing together an interface but for a program that actually did something useful I'll stick to PowerBasic. The executables are small and they'll run under anything from DOS 2.X on up to Windows NT. Haven't tried running one under Win 2000 or later. Plus, with PB all you have after compiling is the end executable, not all the DLL's and such you have to deal with from MS products. Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 15:44:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: <21F580B767D8D411A6C90002B315536128303C@MCGMAIL1> from "Foust, Daniel" at Aug 20, 1 01:40:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1937 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010820/744f31a8/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 20 16:35:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: seeking junked VAXstation 4000-series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anybody have a junked VAXstation 4000 that still has its internal >disk mounting hardware and SCSI cable intact? Those are the parts I need. You can probably fake this good enough to get it running. >Or perhaps even the little flap that goes over the diag LEDs in front. Good luck, those seem to be the first thing to go. Which brings up a question, how save is it to try and remove one to put on another system? My 4000/60 has one, but I'd prefer for it to be on my 4000/90. I'm afraid if I try and transplant it, I'll break it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 20 16:44:47 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Paging Eric Smith or Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <002a01c1285c$b396eec0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >Sorry to use the bandwidth folks.... > >I've been trying to contact either Al Kossow or Eric Smith for many months >now, no responses to email. Anyone know if they are still around or maybe >just have a different email address? > >Thanks! > >Jay West Al is somewhat active on the alt.sys.pdp10 newsgroup, and it sounds like he's in contact with Eric. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tony.eros at machm.org Sun Aug 19 15:32:52 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market - again... In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010817191718.00aba5f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> References: <013801c126b2$fc3bdba0$e8701fd1@default> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010819163010.02e5cc68@mail.njd.concentric.com> Thanks to everyone who sent me directions -- I found the flea market with practically no trouble. I picked up a Macintosh Portable, a medium-sized road case for hauling my stuff and a cool GPS/Loran handbook for the Bahamas. -- Tony At 07:19 PM 8/17/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Well, I'm feeling pretty stupid. I left home without the directions to >the MIT Flea Market some nice person sent me. Could I prevail upon the >group to help me out again and give me directions to the flea market from, >say, New Hampshire (coming down I-93)? > >Thanks again! > >-- Tony > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 20 17:10:26 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Acorn Atom Econet Message-ID: <10108202310.ZM15686@unknown.zmail.host> I've had some private email from an enthusiastin Germany who has an Econet board for an Acorn Atom, but has no firmware ROM for it. Does anyone have a ROM or an image that could be burned? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 20 13:19:57 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Sellam Ismail in @Biz frontpage on collecting old 'puters (Toron In-Reply-To: References: <008301c1297d$d2733160$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20010820221355.FPUT3327.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, Spotted that on that Monday, Aug 20th rag while having lunch at Country Style. Great work on that thing. Might need correction, aren't you still going to call there to correct the VCF 5.0 is cancelled or not? That rag has published that VCF 5.0 dates for Sept. Amazing you have stuff packed to the rafters... comparsion to mine tiny collection. :-) Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 20 13:19:57 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Sellam Ismail in @Biz frontpage on collecting old 'puters (Toron In-Reply-To: References: <008301c1297d$d2733160$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20010820221435.LIOX27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, Spotted that on that Monday, Aug 20th rag while having lunch at Country Style. Great work on that thing. Might need correction, aren't you still going to call there to correct the VCF 5.0 is cancelled or not? That rag has published that VCF 5.0 dates for Sept. Amazing you have stuff packed to the rafters... comparsion to mine tiny collection. :-) Cheers, Wizard From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Aug 20 17:40:48 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: <01Aug20.171150edt.119059@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from Jeff Hellige at "Aug 20, 1 12:24:35 pm" Message-ID: <200108202240.PAA10696@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Programming in VB is totally different than regular BASIC. It's a > totally different approach with attaching snippets of code to individual > buttons and such. I bought the first version when it came out and didn't > care for it. That's why I don't like it either -- or Delphi. Give me QuickBasic and or Turbo Pascal any day. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I must confess, I was born at a very early age. -- Groucho Marx ------------ From louiss at gate.net Mon Aug 20 18:09:59 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerr - IT WORKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108202309.TAA20064@hall.mail.mindspring.net> I would like to report that after 3 months of probing, poking, desoldering, soldering, studying schematics, reading data sheets, etc., etc., my Exidy Sorcerer WORKS! Now how many of you have a computer with crazy keyboard graphics? In any event, I want to publicly thank Pete Turnbull, without whose help and encouragement this project would not have been possible. He took time out from an extremely busy schedule to deal with my stupid questions, and did so without losing his patience. I also want to that Tony Duell for a timely helpful hint, which was very helpful to the diagnostic process. Now, on to bigger and better things! Louis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:55:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Acorn Atom Econet In-Reply-To: <10108202310.ZM15686@unknown.zmail.host> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 20, 1 10:10:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010820/8eb56fe7/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 20 18:25:08 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:33 2005 Subject: Change the damn subject line Re: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( References: Message-ID: <3B819C54.AA452AB1@rain.org> If you and the rest want to continue this conversation, how about at least changing the damn subject line; good grief. "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > happen, leading me to believe that perhaps exhibitors and vendors from > > past years are too busy this year with the economy being the way it is to > > consider participating. > > Darn.... the George dubya Bushbooger strikes again, screwing something > else up; this time the economy, and hence the VCF as a result, just so > he can take credit for strengthening the economy some time from now. > > Yet another example of childish politicians playing games with people's > incomes and lives, just for the sake of playing their childish game of > politics, with the goal of winning at any cost. Hopefully one day > we'll get some people with at least the intelligence of mentally > retarded monkeys to inhabit the Whitehouse... well, one can hope > anyway. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 20 18:51:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder References: Message-ID: <001701c129d3$15f68400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got two different Apple][+'s and they have different keyboard/encoder arrangements. One uses the GRI keyboard I mentioned earlier, and the other uses something I can't see because it's not out of the box (yet). If the MM5740 (I'll look it up later, in an old NSC MOS LSI databook) is just a ROM lookup table, an exacto knife and a few wires will allow it to be adapted to a 2732 or some other common device. If the control, shift, and caps-lock keys (and ALT if there is one) are simply grounded, they can simply be used as high-order address inputs (with pullups) and the scan code as the low-order bits, the EPROM can be programmed to cough up the correct codes. It doesn't have to be a big deal. The business of scanning a keyboard, given what the existing circuitry produces and given what the desired outputs are, is really quite straightforward. My interest is not sufficient to move me to do the work, but if someone wants to generate a schematic (or, perhaps, refer me to a page in the Apple DOS manual I could easily come up with a hack to the hardware to make a common EPROM do the translation. Likewise, if a keyboard-resident scanner is required, I think I can come up with a recipe using an MC68HC05 of something of that ilk. Of course, if the fellow whose keyboard is on the fritz does the research and subsequent work, he'll gain a lot more than if someone else does it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder > > > > My Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder card is faulty and I would like to know if > > it's fixable. I've tried several different keyboards and 2 motherboards so > > There have been several different encoder boards used in Apple ][s. > > The one shown in the Reference Manual uses 5 chips : > > U1 7400 > U2 7404 > U3 555 > U4 7400 > U5 MM5740 > > If it is that version, then the control key has one side grounded. The > other side is pulled up by R1 (4k7) to +5V. That side of the key also > goes to the inputs of U1d (inputs tied together), which inverts the > signal. The output of that (which will be high when the control key is > pressed, low otherwise) goes to pin 19 on U5, the MM5740 keyboard encoder > chip. > > If you have that version, it would be worth checking that the output of > U1d (and pin 19 of U5) do go high when 'control' is pressed and are low > otherwise. If not, the components are probably trivial to replace. > > Also, you might check that the sections of U2 (low 6 bits of the output > word) and U1c (again, inputs tied together) are working correctly. Losing > the top few bits of the keyboard data will make it appear that control is > pressed. > > Most likrly, though, the MM5740 is dead, and that is non-trivial to > replace. I read somewhere that Apple used a custom version in some of > their machines, because the keyswitches are in a non-standard matrix > pattern (the MM5740 contains a ROM which converts the X,Y coordinates of > a key in the matrix into its ASCII code, and it was possible to get > versions with custom ROM patterns if you wanted 10000 of them). > > Many Apple ][s at least in the UK use a different encoder board. I would > guess the circuitry is similar in concept, and all you need to do is > trace the connections of the control keyswitch (most likely one side is > grounded) to the logic, and make sure the signal changes state, at least > up to the LSI encoder chip. Again, if that chip has failed, you've got > problems. > > -tony > > From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 20 17:52:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: <3B814BF6.972D0715@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > economy over night. Hey, if I can blame Georgie for screwing up the VCF this year then all the better :) Actually, I'll have a good news announcement about VCF 5.0 coming up soon :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Aug 20 18:56:30 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerr - IT WORKS In-Reply-To: <200108202309.TAA20064@hall.mail.mindspring.net> from Louis Schulman at "Aug 20, 1 07:09:59 pm" Message-ID: <200108202356.QAA07448@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Now how many of you have a computer with crazy keyboard graphics? C64s. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 20 17:54:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: This message is NOT about Re: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I'm not naming any names, but could we please quit with the > sociopolitical rantings? Yeah, at least change the farqing subject. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 20 17:57:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Sellam Ismail in @Biz frontpage on collecting old 'puters (Toron In-Reply-To: <20010820221435.LIOX27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Spotted that on that Monday, Aug 20th rag while having lunch at > Country Style. > > Great work on that thing. Might need correction, aren't you still > going to call there to correct the VCF 5.0 is cancelled or not? That > rag has published that VCF 5.0 dates for Sept. I don't even know what article this is for. But the VCF is still on (stay tuned :) > Amazing you have stuff packed to the rafters... comparsion to mine > tiny collection. :-) Hmmm, is there a stack of monitors and printers behind me, and I'm holding a PET? I forgot what publication that article was for, but maybe this is it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 20 19:11:45 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Looking for article in @Biz Message-ID: <012801c129d5$df620380$e1701fd1@default> Does anyone know the web site for @Biz, I tried yahoo and google with no luck ? The Wizard sent out the email earlier talking about the article on collecting old computers. From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 20 15:21:26 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Looking for article in @Biz In-Reply-To: <012801c129d5$df620380$e1701fd1@default> Message-ID: <20010821001546.WHIS10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "John R. Keys Jr." > To: > Subject: Looking for article in @Biz > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:11:45 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Googled that Toronto Star then found this: http://thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?GXHC_gx_session_id_=169697c e3fd97344&pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=99825857 4158&call_page=TS_@Biz&call_pageid=971794782442&call_pagepath=Business /@Biz&col=971886476975 Hmm, better use: thestar.com, business, then click on @Biz. > Does anyone know the web site for @Biz, I tried yahoo and google with no > luck ? The Wizard sent out the email earlier talking about the article > on collecting old computers. > Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 20 15:24:31 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Sellam Ismail in @Biz frontpage on collecting old 'puters (T In-Reply-To: References: <20010820221435.LIOX27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010821001829.NDID24413.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:57:47 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sellam Ismail in @Biz frontpage on collecting old 'puters (Toron > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Spotted that on that Monday, Aug 20th rag while having lunch at > > Country Style. > > > > Great work on that thing. Might need correction, aren't you still > > going to call there to correct the VCF 5.0 is cancelled or not? That > > rag has published that VCF 5.0 dates for Sept. > > I don't even know what article this is for. But the VCF is still on (stay > tuned :) > > > Amazing you have stuff packed to the rafters... comparsion to mine > > tiny collection. :-) > > Hmmm, is there a stack of monitors and printers behind me, and I'm holding > a PET? I forgot what publication that article was for, but maybe this is > it. Yes, that's one.. Much better idea of what you are compared to eastVCF pix actually the pix is much better quality in that rag! Toronto Star (thestar.com) Next time I should make sure I have this link! :-P Cheers, Wizard From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1620.monmouth.com Mon Aug 20 19:46:10 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1620.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Aug 20, 2001 03:56:39 pm" Message-ID: <200108210046.f7L0kAm02889@bg-tc-ppp1620.monmouth.com> > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, R.D.Davis wrote: > it's psychological factors that truly account for changes in the > economy. Disclaimer: I took Econ. I and II in college, and learned > one thing: much of it is a lot of make believe foolishness so that > economists, etc. can earn an income. Boy, my sentiments exactly. I think Political Science (my second major --History was first-- and a questionable "science") is more science than economics -- since two economists can look at the exact same info and come up with opposite remedies based on their own preconceived sociopolitical ideology. Much of the macroeconomics stuff I see has to do with the mob psychology and the herd mentality of wall street investors... Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From rcini at optonline.net Mon Aug 20 20:03:22 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Hayes Chronograph on eBay Message-ID: No bids as of 9pm EST. Item 1266277281. $9.00 I'm not connected to the auction in any way. I was just browsing and throught I'd let everyone know. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 20 20:27:49 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Looking for article in @Biz References: <20010821001546.WHIS10424.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <014501c129e0$7ea46280$e1701fd1@default> Thanks I was able to read it and print a copy but no pictures. :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Looking for article in @Biz > > From: "John R. Keys Jr." > > To: > > Subject: Looking for article in @Biz > > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:11:45 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Googled that Toronto Star then found this: > > http://thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?GXHC_gx_session_id_=169697c > e3fd97344&pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=99825857 > 4158&call_page=TS_@Biz&call_pageid=971794782442&call_pagepath=Business > /@Biz&col=971886476975 > > Hmm, better use: > > thestar.com, business, then click on @Biz. > > > Does anyone know the web site for @Biz, I tried yahoo and google with no > > luck ? The Wizard sent out the email earlier talking about the article > > on collecting old computers. > > > > Cheers, > > Wizard > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 20:50:13 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: Re: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( (Chad Fernandez) References: <3B814BF6.972D0715@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15233.48725.314911.79273@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 20, Chad Fernandez wrote: > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > economy over night. But perhaps the economy can change the presidency. If someone else becomes rich enough, they can buy the presidency from Bush. I suppose he'd probably be happy if he were to sell it for more than he bought it for. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From fdebros at verizon.net Mon Aug 20 21:06:35 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market - again... References: <013801c126b2$fc3bdba0$e8701fd1@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010819163010.02e5cc68@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <007701c129e5$e829aee0$6601a8c0@fred> it was woefully underrepresented. despite the weather. i guess the last one is the "backup the truck" flea fred From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Aug 20 21:04:25 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Date Reminder, Electronics Garage Sale Message-ID: <01082019042506.32642@seleth.bluefeathertech.com> Based on at least one response I've gotten so far, it appears that there may have been some confusion about the date of my upcoming sale. I've scheduled it for SEPTEMBER 15th (Saturday) from 10:00 to 17:00 PDT. Location: 12641 SE 277th Pl. Any Thomas Guide, GPS, or web-based mapper should be able to provide you with directions. I hope this clears up any confusion. Thanks again for putting up with the bulletins. -- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77. "Plut? Ahh, Gribble Snort!" From terryc at woa.com.au Mon Aug 20 21:02:20 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: economics References: <200108210046.f7L0kAm02889@bg-tc-ppp1620.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3B81C12C.EA370293@woa.com.au> Bill Pechter wrote: ..snip... > since two economists can look at the exact same info and > come up with opposite remedies based on their own preconceived > sociopolitical ideology. You know the joke .... Why did they invent economic forecasters? To make weather forecasters look good. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From jss at subatomix.com Mon Aug 20 21:26:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010820190008.I18871-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > > > How can you do a non-trivial program with recursion without stack > > > overflow? > > > > Very carefully, but it can happen. > > In anything resembling real world, a FOR loop works better. I've used > recursion ... but the stack load was excessive. In order for > recursion to be stable, one would want more than a 64K segment for > stack. Yes, a 64K stack segment could be a problem! Don't dismiss recursion in real-world projects entirely, though. If you can prove that there will be enough stack space, if you actually need to use a full address width to record the previous execution location, and if it is more elegant code, then you've got to seriously consider it. How likely is that? Not very. But it is possible. I ran into such a situation when writing a parser (in a real-world project) a few months back. > > > while(*T++=*S++); > > > > Was this an actual program fragment? > > Yes. It's how C copies a string. ... Oh, I know that. I was just astonished they'd be doing stuff like that in an 'introductory' course. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 20 21:11:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2091.633T1700T1915001optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I take it you're no big fan of load/store designs? >Actually, load/store architectures do tend to have a large number of >internal CPU registers, and those registers tend to be general-purpose. >Which means I have no real problem with them. There must be two load/store designs, then; those which rely on fast memory access, and those which don't, yet rely upon it and compensate through a large number of registers. The 6502 would belong to the first case. >> >Eh? Yes, there are some special-cases on the 6809 (MUL, for example). But >> >the 6502 has many more. Heck, on the 6502 you have to use the X register >> >for one kind of indrect and indexed addressing and the Y register for the >> >other form (on the 6809 you can do any addressing mode with X or Y (or >> >with U or S for that matter). On the 6809 you can transfer values between >> >any 2 registers of the same size. On the 6502 you can't even transfer >> >between X and Y without destroying the accumulator contents (IIRC). >> >> I was specifically thinking of all the different registers and the way you >> combine them. But I've not got enough experience to make any insightful >> comparisons. >If we ignore the registers which are likely to be 'special' on any real >processor (PC and flags, for example), then IIRC, the 6809 has the >following registers : >A, B (Accumulators, can be considered to be the 16 bit D register) >X,Y (Index registers) >U,S (Stack pointers) >DP (Direct Page pointer). [snip] >But in general, U and S are equivalent. So are X and Y. And in some >cases, even all of X, Y, U, S can be used in the same way. For a >processor with only a few registers, that's pretty reasonable. But then again, that's a lot of registers compared to the 6502. And they're not as flexible as the 68000 set of registers, AFAIK. Tell me, are there any common eight-bitters with more registers than the 6809? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till pdf2txt@adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress. From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 20 20:43:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4348.633T800T1634937optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On 19 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> You mean you teach them Intel assembler? >Yes >Not because it's "good", but because it's needed. (I teach at a community >college, where we are teaching "useful" skills, not the abstractions of >the university.) I didn't know Intel was needed. If that is the case, it must be the fault of community colleges (whatever that is). I just love it when people just use what they're familiar with, instead of actually investigating the alternatives. That's one reason why computing is so tedious today. >> When I took the programming course at the gymnasium, we were first taught >> scheme. A lot of people complained that it was a useless language, which in >> part is true, since it's hardly the kind of language you write a web >> browser in. But I thought it was a nice beginner's language (contrary to >> most of my co-students, I had programming experience, so my perspective >> differed from theirs). The syntax is extremely simple, I think Tony would >> like it. A lot of people superficially describe it as "a lot of >> parantheses", and that's true. There's not a lot of semicolons, three kinds >> of parantheses, hashes and the like. >I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. >But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? Well, there are those languages my mates love to read about, the ones designed just to annoy, using two-dimensional flow control, roman numerals, trinary notation, comefroms, and so on. =) >> OTOH, I also thought that it (and the teacher) encouraged some very >> dangerous programming techniques, such as recursivity. >Encouraged? Some of the teachers won't let their students do a program to >count to 10 WITHOUT recursion! They can't imagine doing something like >Fibonacci sequence WITHOUT using recursion. How can you do a non-trivial >program with recursion without stack overflow? Which I also demonstrated to the teacher. =) >> But C at arrival? Well, if there are preparation courses, I can see why. >> There are a lot of people who have been using and programming computers >> since they were kids, and they have an initial advantage over the >> newcomers. So as not to bore the already-experienced, I can see why the >> real courses should start with such a prerequisite as long as there is a >> preparatory course for those not born with a joystick in their hand. >NOPE. NO preparatory course, nor stated prerequisite! >It's worse than that. The profs doing the intro course have decided on >Scheme, but the ones teaching the next course (Data Structures and >Algorithms teach that class using C. When challenged as to the >inconsistency, their response was, "well, they should already know how to >program in C before they get here." When you have a prof who writes >"puzzle code", like Alan Holub, undergrads are expected to follow stuff >like > while(*T++=*S++); >with NO formal preparation. >But the program there is over-enrolled. Their approach to that is to >progressively keep increasing the volume of homework until there are >enough breakdowns to get the enrollment down. I call that sadistic. >They call that "social Darwinism". If it were so, then they are breeding >for STAMINA, not computer science skill. I think they're not as choosy here. I've got a neighbour who's taking datalogy with no previous computer experience worth mentioning, and there are courses at the royal institute of technology for retraining us useless humanists into useful scientists and programmers, as well as particular girls' classes. >> Now it seems to be all about Java, though. =/ >If it were to live up to its claims of portability, if it were to survive >MICROS~1's perversions of it, and if they would give me POINTERS (OK, >intrinsically non-portable), then it could be a reasonable approach. I don't think I've ever met anyone who dislikes it, but I've never bothered to learn it (useless language on any of my computers), and I've enever bothered with C++ for the same reasons (Friends tell me it's very slow and bloated). I've never really understood the concept of OOP, either. =) Why are pointers non-portable, though? C uses pointers and is very portable. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 20 20:17:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <20010819013526.E15443-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <872.633T1450T1374995optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >Jeffrey S. Sharp said: >> Does it have to be "HELLO WORLD" exactly, or could something different >> suffice? >Iggy Drougge said: >> No, you may put anything you want between the quotation marks. >Ah-HA! Thus, the higher-level educational purpose of such PRINTing is to >provide some sort of feedback to the novice, so that he can see, with one, >simple command, the computer performing as he instructed. >That purpose does not necessitate a PRINT statement at all. It doesn't >even necessitate a text message. >MOVE 10100101, DISPLAY_REGISTER It has to be something immediately intelligible. The above isn't that. Somehow, most newbies aren't as fascinated by the ability to directly manipulate bit patterns (not to mention their ignorance about binary maths) as the ability to print their name on the screen. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 20 19:47:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs.Everything In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <916.633T1750T1075471optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: > I used what I had available, which was a BASIC compiler under >MS-DOS, not to mention it was what I already knew. I neve said it >was the best choice! It did work though and it worked better than >the solution that replaced it that came from 'professional' >programmers. Mine was done on the side and was a definate >improvement over what had been used before, which was an archaic >proprietary piece of software that was a royal pain to use, being run >from a mini and accessed by way of a terminal. If it hadn't been my >BASIC programs giving them the little push, who knows when the would >have replaced it. Please explain what's wrong with running things on a mini through terminals? And why a DOS PC somehow is better? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Idealismus ist die F?higkeit, die Menschen so zu sehen, wie sie sein k?nnten, wenn sie nicht so w?ren, wie sie sind. --- Curt Goetz From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 20 22:09:17 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: MIT Flea Market - again... References: <013801c126b2$fc3bdba0$e8701fd1@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010819163010.02e5cc68@mail.njd.concentric.com> <007701c129e5$e829aee0$6601a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <010901c129ee$aa60a420$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> fred I don't understand what you're saying here. John A. From: Fred deBros To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:06 PM Subject: Re: MIT Flea Market - again... it was woefully underrepresented. despite the weather. i guess the last one is the "backup the truck" flea From rdd at smart.net Mon Aug 20 22:39:55 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 on the verge of being cancelled :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > perhaps we should start heating up some molten iron for him? Hey, combine that with the tar and feathers he'd probably be wearing on the way to take a dip, and he might make a rather interesting fasion statement when pulled out of the vat. Of course, that looney Washington D.C. crowd, which, shall we say, is more than a little out of touch with reality, just wouldn't get it, and they'd probably begin wearing similar-looking clothing, thinking it to be in fasion. Ah well... -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Aug 20 22:59:24 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010820225924.009fe210@ubanproductions.com> Does anyone know who might carry a replacement CRT for an old mid 60s display? The manufacturer and part number are: Conrac 14386P39 --tnx --tom From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 20 22:59:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: <200108210046.f7L0kAm02889@bg-tc-ppp1620.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, R.D.Davis wrote: > > it's psychological factors that truly account for changes in the > > economy. Disclaimer: I took Econ. I and II in college, and learned > > one thing: much of it is a lot of make believe foolishness so that > > economists, etc. can earn an income. > > Boy, my sentiments exactly. I think Political Science (my second major > --History was first-- and a questionable "science") is more science than > economics -- since two economists can look at the exact same info and > come up with opposite remedies based on their own preconceived sociopolitical > ideology. It is said that the economists have predicted 15 of the last four recessions that we have had. No wonder they call it the `dismal science'! - don > Much of the macroeconomics stuff I see has to do with the mob psychology > and the herd mentality of wall street investors... > > > Bill > -- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Aug 20 23:15:43 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: CF Computer Junk Fest Update Message-ID: <32.199b0fc4.28b33a6f@aol.com> Today I was informed by Joe Rigdon (who is still offline) that the Melbourne Ham Fest is happening the weekend of the 8th, so we've moved the Fest to the following Saturday (15th). Anyone else interested in attending? Don't miss the fun! Drop me a note. Later -- Glen 0/0 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 21 00:16:25 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010820225924.009fe210@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: You want the whole unti or just the tube? -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Uban -> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:59 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? -> -> -> Does anyone know who might carry a replacement CRT for -> an old mid 60s display? The manufacturer and part -> number are: Conrac 14386P39 -> -> --tnx -> --tom -> -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 04:40:59 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs.Everything In-Reply-To: <916.633T1750T1075471optimus@canit.se> References: <916.633T1750T1075471optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Please explain what's wrong with running things on a mini through terminals? >And why a DOS PC somehow is better? There's nothing wrong with running a mini through terminals. It was the program being run that was the problem. The program was only used by me anyway so it gained nothing by running like that and the replacement I wrote to run under DOS on my local machine was much more flexible, especially when it came to printed output It also cut down on the time it took me to input documents, which makes a difference when doing a few hundred at a time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Aug 21 08:06:22 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010820225924.009fe210@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010821080622.009addf0@ubanproductions.com> Just the tube. At 12:16 AM 8/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >You want the whole unti or just the tube? > >-> -----Original Message----- >-> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Uban >-> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:59 PM >-> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >-> Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? >-> >-> >-> Does anyone know who might carry a replacement CRT for >-> an old mid 60s display? The manufacturer and part >-> number are: Conrac 14386P39 >-> >-> --tnx >-> --tom >-> >-> > > From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Tue Aug 21 08:50:48 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: CF Computer Junk Fest Update Message-ID: DOH! My vacation ends on the 9th so, I may not be able to attend. SteveRob >From: Glenatacme@aol.com >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: CF Computer Junk Fest Update >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:15:43 EDT > >Today I was informed by Joe Rigdon (who is still offline) that the >Melbourne >Ham Fest is happening the weekend of the 8th, so we've moved the Fest to >the >following Saturday (15th). > >Anyone else interested in attending? Don't miss the fun! Drop me a note. > >Later -- > >Glen >0/0 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From kentborg at borg.org Tue Aug 21 08:52:46 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? In-Reply-To: <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org>; from marvin@rain.org on Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 06:00:32PM -0700 References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> Message-ID: <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 06:00:32PM -0700, Marvin wrote: > Your statement is also called "Form over Substance". "Chaos" is a frame of > mind, and the simple fact is that using one style over another will not > result in more OR less chaos. Posting a message that is clear, well composed, well written, and easy to understand is what will result in less chaos. Blindly following any particular rules will not assure a good posting. Be clear--and that includes being clear in how you do any quoting. -kb, the Kent who nominates for an almost "blind rule" the following: Trim Quoted Material to the Minimum Necessary to Establish Sufficient Context. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Aug 21 07:42:48 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Expectations, Tasks and assignments (was: Assembly vs. Everything In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010821084248.014f39fc@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:16 PM 8/19/01 -0400, R.D. Davis wrote: >Aye, FoxPro, the database software of choice for clueless luzers. ;-) One way that I supported myself through the master's program was to help my advisor carry out the paper submission/peer review/conference program process for a major conference in the U.S. We were given a database of authors from previous conferences (dbaseIV). We were expected to enter all paper titles, author info (trying to maintain the existing database), send the papers to reviewers (each with an accompanying letter), enter the results when the reviews came back, sort everything by review grade, assign a cut-off based on available rooms/times at the conference center, assemble the program (i.e., group papers by general topic and assign them to rooms/presentation times such that no two rooms had presentations on the same topic in the same time slot), and then send a big mailing; the simple letters were the "paper refused" type; for the papers that were in, the acceptance letters had to include room number and presentation time. We used dbaseIV for the handling of the databases. But being picky about the choice of word processing software for the letters, I wrote a dbase script that would output a LaTeX source file with all of the letters, even including TeX commands to draw the appropriate letterhead. I don't think many people have used LaTeX as a filter for a dbase report :-) . The final program for the conference was produced in a similar way. 1400+ papers submitted, 600+ accepted, very few errors. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Aug 21 08:06:13 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: sorry OT (was socio-political $%#@$#%) In-Reply-To: <001501c129ae$ff39a220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010821090613.014ef180@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:33 PM 8/20/01 -0600, Dick wrote: >Does it surprise anyone that he allowed the >mostly Texan energy conglomerates that raped the California energy-consuming >public to back away quitely while he "formulated" a policy? Oh, c'mon Dick, while Enron has done very well, one of the players that has benefited the most is PG&E Corp, the parent company of PG&E. They've been having record profits for the last five quarters or so. The reason: they operate generators within California. They even had their (now under Chapter 11) sibling transfer money to them late last year. The point is: they all were given a legal way to rape the Californian consumers. They had no hesitation to do so. They are all the same, be it Texan, Californian, whatever. It is just the standard way of doing business. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Aug 21 07:15:38 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <20010819123751.E16476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <200108191042.f7JAgE200445@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010821081538.014f04c4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:45 PM 8/19/01 -0500, Jeffrey wrote: >It's not really Mathematica; it just the TI system. It is quite like >Mathematica in that it provides symbolic manipulation, the main feature of >Mathematica that most college students know or care about. I must say that I haven't had any exposure to the TI system. However, I usually prefer to deal with most math in old fashion: pencil and paper, but usually after thinking about the nature and implications of the problem at hand. Keeps me in shape. I've had students who weren't in good shape after a couple of years of TI-assisted college, even though they were decent at algebra when they first enrolled. Note: I have nothing against using appropriate tools (symbolic math in this case). But I do think that if you overdo it, as in never using your brain again, then you definitely lose some of the training. "The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers". Yes. But there must be some gray matter behind the eyeballs looking at the screen in order to be able to grasp the insight. I was a hard-core Maple user back when I had to manipulate expressions with thousands of terms in my misguided youth :-) . In fact, I started using Macsyma (running on an Apollo DN3000, on topic). At the time (or maybe a little after that era, I don't remember exact dates), there was Mathematica on the Macs, but they would freeze all too often because the computational kernel would eat all of the memory. Anyway, the point that I wanted to make was that years after I found that a different approach to the same problem would have resulted in expressions that were much more manageable. My original research was not wrong, but I had succeeded in making it more difficult than necessary by using symbolic math. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 21 09:14:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF References: Message-ID: <3B826CDB.3BFCAD20@internet1.net> R. D. Davis wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. > > Yes he does. The economy is purely psychological. If enough people > think it's bad, it will be bad, and vice versa. If he and the other > politicrats went out and started talking about how the economy > miraculously improved overnight, it would. The stock market is emotionally run, much of the time, I'll give you that. The economy on a whole is influenced by emotional factors, too. To say that the economy is purely psychological is an over simplification. > > > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > > economy over night. > > It's obvious that g. dubya bushbooger wanted people to think the > economy was worsening so that he could take credit for "fixing" the > economy through various policies..... So some guy running for president said the economy was worsening, and the whole world believed him, ok sure. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Aug 21 08:20:32 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: <3B81C12C.EA370293@woa.com.au> References: <200108210046.f7L0kAm02889@bg-tc-ppp1620.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010821092032.014e65ac@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:02 PM 8/21/01 +1000, Terry wrote: >Bill Pechter wrote: >> since two economists can look at the exact same info and >> come up with opposite remedies based on their own preconceived >> sociopolitical ideology. >You know the joke .... >Why did they invent economic forecasters? >To make weather forecasters look good. Who was the US president that said that he needed a single-handed economist? Because they are always saying ".. on the other hand, if you do that, this other effect might be triggered". carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 09:49:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <2091.633T1700T1915001optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <005301c12a50$7248abc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Tony Duell" Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:11 PM Subject: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > Tony Duell skrev: > > >> I take it you're no big fan of load/store designs? > > >Actually, load/store architectures do tend to have a large number of > >internal CPU registers, and those registers tend to be general-purpose. > >Which means I have no real problem with them. > > There must be two load/store designs, then; those which rely on fast memory > access, and those which don't, yet rely upon it and compensate through a large > number of registers. The 6502 would belong to the first case. > > But then again, that's a lot of registers compared to the 6502. And they're > not as flexible as the 68000 set of registers, AFAIK. > Tell me, are there any common eight-bitters with more registers than the 6809? > The Z-80 has MORE registers, first of all because it has two complete sets ... but then it's of an earlier generation than the 6809 and 68K, which are of more or less the same generation but targeted at different markets. The 6502, BTW, though it's of an earlier generation than the 6809, is capable of significantly higher performance, again based on the technology in which it was originally designed and implemented, because, since it was so small and thrifty, internally, it could be run at much higher speeds than the much later 6809. In order to capitalize on the higher speed of the cpu, however, it did require faster RAM. This made the zero-page registers particularly interesting in the context of an extended register set, since, in a single instruction, albeit with multiple cpu cycles, it could access data stored there about as fast as any other CPU could access internal resources. It wasn't terribly unusual to see a 6502 that used memory at different rates, depending on location in the memory map. Consequently, it was possible to run programs that lived in lower memory at high speed without having a large amount of fast memory. The 6809 was targeted at more computing-intensive applications than was the prevous generation of processors, however, and, therefore, could do things more "elegantly" from a computer-science standpoint. If there had been an integrated MMU it would have been a major challenger to the 8xx86 series with its awkward segment scheme. The latter, however, did have a real 16-bit architecture, however. With its two-of-everything register set, the Z80 definitely had more registers internally than the 6809, though. Dick > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till > pdf2txt@adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress. > > From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 21 10:20:16 2001 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) Message-ID: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Ok folks, I've about had it with the off topic stuff as of late, including but not limited to the current "political" discussion. This also applies to some of the "flame wars" that happened a month or so ago which I received several complaints and "requests for action" about, as well as the long discussion of caurberators for god's sake. This list is for discussion of classic computers and narrowly related issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If you want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary or flaming, take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want less than to be perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the interest of the list subscribers at large I felt the need to bring this up. There are plenty of majordomo configuration or filtering solutions available to me that will address this, but I truely do not want to go that route. Let's keep the signal-to-noise ratio within reasonable limits. Please? Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 21 11:04:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <4348.633T800T1634937optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >> You mean you teach them Intel assembler? > >Yes > >Not because it's "good", but because it's needed. (I teach at a community > >college, where we are teaching "useful" skills, not the abstractions of > >the university.) On 21 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I didn't know Intel was needed. If that is the case, it must be the fault of > community colleges (whatever that is). You are familiar with how many computers there are with Intel 80x86 family processors, and you are familiar with the software that is being run. Are you saying that there ISN'T a need to imporove the quality of that software? > I just love it when people just use what they're familiar with, instead of > actually investigating the alternatives. That's one reason why computing is so > tedious today. If you can get a quorum for a class at this school in some other processor family and meet the state legal requirements, then I will personally break enough administrator arms to get you hired to teach it. We used to have a "Mainframe Assembly Language" course (IBM 360 family), but the guy who taught it retired and took it with him (remember Guy Lombardo and New Years?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 21 11:09:37 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: CF Computer Junk Fest Update In-Reply-To: <32.199b0fc4.28b33a6f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Today I was informed by Joe Rigdon (who is still offline) that the Melbourne > Ham Fest is happening the weekend of the 8th, so we've moved the Fest to the > following Saturday (15th). > Anyone else interested in attending? Don't miss the fun! Drop me a note. > Later -- Sounds like fun, but VCF is tentatively back on for September 15 and 16, so you might not get very many attendees from the SF bay area. What part of the world is yours in? From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 11:13:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> Message-ID: <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> After over 10 years of trying to find a way of getting one, I've finally gotten a NeXT Cube! It's one of the original model N1000 cube's that has been upgraded to dual '040 boards and an internal floppy drive. It still retains the MO drive though, which actually seems to work fine. It has 16MB of RAM on both CPU boards and has NeXTstep 3.2 loaded on an internal Quantum 327MB hard disk. My only complaint is that the monitor is dim to the point of almost being unusable. For those curious, it does show 'NeXT Computer' on the rear panel vice 'NeXT Cube'. -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 11:41:26 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Sunlight damage and electronics Message-ID: I'm curious about what people think about the following. I was supposed to be buying a Neo Geo Arcade cartridge from a dealer I trust. Unfortuantly just before we finalized the deal the cart quite working on him. The only thing he can think of is that he was gone for a week with the blinds open and the California sun shinning down on the cart. A Neo Geo MVS cart is typically two circuit boards in a large black plastic case (larger than a VHS tape). What I'm wondering is did the heat melt the solder, or could it have baked some components. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rdd at smart.net Tue Aug 21 12:14:09 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote: > Ok folks, I've about had it with the off topic stuff as of late, including > but not limited to the current "political" discussion. This also applies to Hmmm... interesting how criticizing the Cheif Politicrat of the U.S. triggered this. Surely a highy unlilely thing to happen, but I'll ask anyway: did g. dubya bushbooger's SS troopers get to someone and demand that we stop criticizing the pugnacious little prat? Fortunately I don't have a soundcard in this system so I can't hear "Hail to the Twit" being played... Dang, I thought algore was the one who wanted censorship; apparently they're both controlled by the same puppetmasters. However, I'm inclined to agree with you that we stick more to the discussion of classic computers for the sake of our overflowing mailboxes. :-) > some of the "flame wars" that happened a month or so ago which I received > several complaints and "requests for action" about, as well as the long > discussion of caurberators for god's sake. However, that discussion did result in a discussion of engines controlled by classic computers. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 12:00:18 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: new find... References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> How funny. I picked up a NeXT '040 cube with Dimension board Sunday. It also was a N1000, upgraded to a 25mhz '040, a working OD, a nonfunctional HD, 64mb on the mb and 64mb on the Dimension. The N4000a monitor is crisp and bright. I'm talking with Rob of Black Hole about a Hitachi 21" for the Dimension side. The only thing I need is a monochtrome monitor cable. The non-functioning hard drive is not a problem. I have a couple of copies of NS3.3 Dev, a junk box full of 2-4gb SCSI drives and I can set up a new boot drive from my Turbo Color slab. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Jeff Hellige wrote: > > After over 10 years of trying to find a way of getting one, > I've finally gotten a NeXT Cube! It's one of the original model > N1000 cube's that has been upgraded to dual '040 boards and an > internal floppy drive. It still retains the MO drive though, which > actually seems to work fine. It has 16MB of RAM on both CPU boards > and has NeXTstep 3.2 loaded on an internal Quantum 327MB hard disk. > My only complaint is that the monitor is dim to the point of almost > being unusable. For those curious, it does show 'NeXT Computer' on > the rear panel vice 'NeXT Cube'. > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Aug 21 12:12:00 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for References: <200108191042.f7JAgE200445@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3.0.2.32.20010821081538.014f04c4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <003c01c12a64$654fa860$030101ac@boll.casema.net> If anyone wants to try the TI-92...... There is an WIN 9X TI-XX emulator that can emulate anything from the TI-82 to TI92 with some exeptions, but you need the ROM images to run the machine you want/have. Fortunately TI has put up ROM-upgrades of the TI-92 and TI-89 on it's site so you can get those (need to fill out some kinda license) and you'll need the VTI.EXE emulator (look via www.ticalc.org or also aviable at my site) You may need to rename the ROM-images you got from TI but they do work. Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: Re: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for > At 12:45 PM 8/19/01 -0500, Jeffrey wrote: > >It's not really Mathematica; it just the TI system. It is quite like > >Mathematica in that it provides symbolic manipulation, the main feature of > >Mathematica that most college students know or care about. > > I must say that I haven't had any exposure to the TI system. However, > I usually prefer to deal with most math in old fashion: pencil and > paper, but usually after thinking about the nature and implications > of the problem at hand. Keeps me in shape. I've had students who > weren't in good shape after a couple of years of TI-assisted college, > even though they were decent at algebra when they first enrolled. > Note: I have nothing against using appropriate tools (symbolic math > in this case). But I do think that if you overdo it, as in never > using your brain again, then you definitely lose some of the training. > > "The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers". Yes. But there > must be some gray matter behind the eyeballs looking at the screen > in order to be able to grasp the insight. > > I was a hard-core Maple user back when I had to manipulate expressions > with thousands of terms in my misguided youth :-) . In fact, I started > using Macsyma (running on an Apollo DN3000, on topic). At the time > (or maybe a little after that era, I don't remember exact dates), > there was Mathematica on the Macs, but they would freeze all too often > because the computational kernel would eat all of the memory. > Anyway, the point that I wanted to make was that years after I found > that a different approach to the same problem would have resulted > in expressions that were much more manageable. My original research > was not wrong, but I had succeeded in making it more difficult than > necessary by using symbolic math. > > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 12:16:48 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: Room for Collections Message-ID: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large room to set mine up. I currently have up and running: NeXT TC slab, 17" Trinitron, laser printer, SCSI box, flatbed scanner Sgi Indy, 20" Trinitron, SCSI box, Lexmark Optra with PS support Sun Sparc 5, 20" Trintron Mac Performa 631CD,DOS board, now just a 15" since the 20" Radius died, StyleWriter 2500, LaserWriter II-NTX, ImageWriter II with LocalTalk board NeXT Cube with Dimension, 17" mono, ext CD rom, laserprinter, soon 21" NeXT Hitachi on the Dimension WinTel machine, 21" Mitsubishi, 19" CTX on Dual Head, Epson AL1000, Epson Stylus 1500, Kurta digitizer, flatbed scanner Commodore 128D, 14" RGB, MPS-803, 2 1571's running CP/M Intel box booting BeOS, 17" monitor Other printers and stuff: Calcomp 1043GT plotter("E" size), Zericon PC3610 plotter ("D" size), HP LJ4si, HP OfficeJet R60, Canon BJC-4550, Canon BJ-230, Tandy DMP-2100, Epson LQ570 (2 of them), Epson AL-1500's (2 of them) This doesn't even count the servers in the closet. I just took down an Amiga 3000 that I'm selling. I also have been selling all of the Apple II's ,Tandys and other machines that I collected. Besides, I don't want to keep a lot of boxes in storage, they need to be used and ran. I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect mainframes. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 11:24:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote: > This list is for discussion of classic computers and narrowly related > issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If > you want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary > or flaming, take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want > less than to be perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the > interest of the list subscribers at large I felt the need to bring > this up. There are plenty of majordomo configuration or filtering > solutions available to me that will address this, but I truely do not > want to go that route. Jay, this has been a problem from way back when. I always advocated some sort of moderation, which was usually received by screams and moaning from the entrenched crowd of off-topic posters along with prophesies of doom for the list, etc. I eventually gave up, and now just do like many other people do, which is delete a lot of messages. But I shouldn't have to be forced to do that. Some sort of moderation IS required for off-topic posts. The off-topic messages in the past year and a half have been so grossly off-topic as to make moderation easy. An occasional rant or short-lived series is just fine, but when a discussion on guns or carbeurators stretches on for WEEKS, that's just too much. Start shit-canning those messages before they hit the list and problem solved. People who purposely go out of their way to start off-topic discussions (they know who they are) should be warned once, maybe twice, and then the next time they try to insist on their right to discuss off-topic nonsense they are restricted from posting to the list for some amount of time (maybe 3 days). They'll eventually learn. Serious offenders will be dipped in molten iron. I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic. I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy. I would suggest that as a norm moderation be OFF. When an off-topic thread starts, we turn moderation ON and kill the offending thread or threads, send out the appropriate warnings, and then when things return to normal we turn it back off again. This should only be required for a short period of time, and then occasionally down the road as people forget their lessons in MANNERS and ETIQUETTE. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 11:34:15 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:34 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > Hmmm... interesting how criticizing the Cheif Politicrat of the U.S. > triggered this. Surely a highy unlilely thing to happen, but I'll ask > anyway: did g. dubya bushbooger's SS troopers get to someone and > demand that we stop criticizing the pugnacious little prat? > Fortunately I don't have a soundcard in this system so I can't hear > "Hail to the Twit" being played... Dang, I thought algore was the one > who wanted censorship; apparently they're both controlled by the same > puppetmasters. Look, R.D. You are the exact type of fellow I was thinking about the other day when I talked about socially retarded people. You, as much as I have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly, indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take EVERY opportunity to foist your pointless and tasteless opinions on everyone else here, with little regard for OUR preferences, showing absolute disrespect to everyone here. You are a SAD, SAD individual. I'm sorry you didn't get that pony you always wanted, but we should NOT be held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS! > However, I'm inclined to agree with you that we stick more to the > discussion of classic computers for the sake of our overflowing > mailboxes. :-) Oh, do you REALLY THINK SO? After you went ahead and insisted on carrying on with your assanine political diatribe, as if this last statement will somehow absolve you of your pitiful indisrection? You are an ASSSS!! I wish I could change the font to a 128 pointsize so I could write "ASS" in letters big enough to express how I feel about you. YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!! > However, that discussion did result in a discussion of engines > controlled by classic computers. :-) YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at netapp.com Tue Aug 21 12:32:52 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010821102958.00a07aa0@www.mcmanis.com> My room keeps enough set up for me to work on (a PDP-8, a dozen VAXen, pc stuff.) However I'm working toward a 'fast access' storage system whereby systems are packed up for storage in such a way that they can be retrieved, activated/used, re-archived fairly quickly and smoothly. That way I can switch active systems easily. The process consists of "blueprinting" the system by documenting its configuration (hardware and software) thoroughly and then packing it together as a unit. --Chuck At 12:16 PM 8/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for >the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and >functioning? Does your SO understand? From rdd at smart.net Tue Aug 21 13:02:59 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect > mainframes. ...or wives. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Aug 21 12:42:35 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13668905886.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Can the list software do this: Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an unmoderated list. Normally people are on the unmoderated list of subscribers. When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they get moved to the moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only then) their posts have to be OKed to make it to the list. This allows the majority here to post without needing someone to continually OK messages. Does that make any sense at all or am I being an idiot again? ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Aug 21 12:44:05 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13668906159.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [He's a donkey?] Can we please not degenerate to insults? Maybe I do need to stop deleting all the messages that don't pertain to me and start reading them... ------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 12:45:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> Message-ID: <01Aug21.135106edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >How funny. I picked up a NeXT '040 cube with Dimension board Sunday. >It also was a N1000, upgraded to a 25mhz '040, a working OD, a >nonfunctional HD, 64mb on the mb and 64mb on the Dimension. The N4000a >monitor is crisp and bright. I'm talking with Rob of Black Hole about a >Hitachi 21" for the Dimension side. The only thing I need is a >monochtrome monitor cable. Cool...I'd love to eventually find a Dimension board...then I could use my 17" Megapixel Color monitor with it vice the dim N4000a. I did notice that Rob had N4000a's at $60. The killer there would be the shipping. Thankfully mine came with the long mono cable. I take it yours doesn't have a floppy drive? >The non-functioning hard drive is not a problem. I have a couple of >copies of NS3.3 Dev, a junk box full of 2-4gb SCSI drives and I can set >up a new boot drive from my Turbo Color slab. That'd be easy enough to do. I'll likely swap a larger drive into this one as well and put NS 3.3 on it. The previous owner had named this one 'Precious' so that's what you see when you're logged on. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Aug 21 12:49:06 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: Message-ID: <005c01c12a69$9abd1460$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the list..... It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of an unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;) Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ? Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote: > > > This list is for discussion of classic computers and narrowly related > > issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If > > you want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary > > or flaming, take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want > > less than to be perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the > > interest of the list subscribers at large I felt the need to bring > > this up. There are plenty of majordomo configuration or filtering > > solutions available to me that will address this, but I truely do not > > want to go that route. > > Jay, this has been a problem from way back when. I always advocated some > sort of moderation, which was usually received by screams and moaning from > the entrenched crowd of off-topic posters along with prophesies of doom > for the list, etc. I eventually gave up, and now just do like many other > people do, which is delete a lot of messages. > > But I shouldn't have to be forced to do that. > > Some sort of moderation IS required for off-topic posts. The off-topic > messages in the past year and a half have been so grossly off-topic as to > make moderation easy. An occasional rant or short-lived series is just > fine, but when a discussion on guns or carbeurators stretches on for > WEEKS, that's just too much. Start shit-canning those messages before > they hit the list and problem solved. People who purposely go out of > their way to start off-topic discussions (they know who they are) should > be warned once, maybe twice, and then the next time they try to insist on > their right to discuss off-topic nonsense they are restricted from posting > to the list for some amount of time (maybe 3 days). They'll eventually > learn. Serious offenders will be dipped in molten iron. > > I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages > are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough > flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic. > > I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy > to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular > job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy. > > I would suggest that as a norm moderation be OFF. When an off-topic > thread starts, we turn moderation ON and kill the offending thread or > threads, send out the appropriate warnings, and then when things return to > normal we turn it back off again. This should only be required for a > short period of time, and then occasionally down the road as people forget > their lessons in MANNERS and ETIQUETTE. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 21 12:49:32 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: References: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> At 01:14 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: As a Brit, I honestly couldn't care less about "Dubya" - or indeed the whole US political system. I don't really care too much for ours either. >However, I'm inclined to agree with you that we stick more to the >discussion of classic computers for the sake of our overflowing >mailboxes. :-) Yes please! In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain transplant for it - for now, at least. > >However, that discussion did result in a discussion of engines controlled >by classic computers. :-) > Hmm. It's still possible to buy new Z80 CPUs (?2.50 in the UK); how many would it take to build a pentium-IV class machine? :) Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 12:59:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect > mainframes. I do! My girlfriend, my parents, my brother, and some of my friends think I'm nuts. Peace... Sridhar From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Aug 21 13:01:17 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: <13668905886.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <006001c12a6b$487551c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> This is an acceptable construct for newsgroups since you can readily distingish between the two groups but it would be a nightmare for any listmember that want's to receive both lists. A double stream of Classic-stuff, partly pepperd with even more OT-dribble. Just a little bit of educational OT-stuff makes life enjoyable. It's the "This is my conviction, and you've got to eat it" rants that I hate. It seems that for too many nerdy nerds the classic-comp list is the only emotional outlet they have. Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:42 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) > > Can the list software do this: > > Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an unmoderated list. > Normally people are on the unmoderated list of subscribers. > When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they get moved to the > moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only then) their posts have to be > OKed to make it to the list. > > This allows the majority here to post without needing someone to continually > OK messages. > > Does that make any sense at all or am I being an idiot again? > ------- From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 21 13:01:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> from "James Rice" at Aug 21, 2001 12:16:48 PM Message-ID: <200108211801.f7LI1oB17616@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large > room to set mine up... My wife understands, although she's not that happy when I use the loft to rebuild a system. Everything else I keep either in my computer room or in the garage. The biggest thing I have right now is a VAX 4000/300 (soon to be a /500). There's a VAXstation 4000/60, Alphastation 200 4/233, BA350, and Infoserver 1000 stacked on top of it. This weekend I'll move my DLT4700 case up to the room (it is currently in the garage, but the actual library unit is in the room). I'm going to stack my BA23 case on top of that and a Pro380 on top of the BA23. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 13:02:34 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <003c01c12a64$654fa860$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > If anyone wants to try the TI-92...... > > There is an WIN 9X TI-XX emulator that can emulate anything from the TI-82 to > TI92 with some exeptions, but you need the ROM images to run the machine you > want/have. > > Fortunately TI has put up ROM-upgrades of the TI-92 and TI-89 on it's site so > you can get those (need to fill out some kinda license) and you'll need the > VTI.EXE emulator (look via www.ticalc.org or also aviable at my site) You may > need to rename the ROM-images you got from TI but they do work. I wonder if it's possible to run MINIX on the TI-92? Hmm... the possibilities. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 21 13:07:22 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: References: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821124251.00c50320@pc> At 09:24 AM 8/21/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Some sort of moderation IS required for off-topic posts. The off-topic >messages in the past year and a half have been so grossly off-topic as to >make moderation easy. An occasional rant or short-lived series is just >fine, but when a discussion on guns or carbeurators stretches on for >WEEKS, that's just too much. The list is full of self-appointed and voluble experts on very obscure topics. You're happy when they're comparing the length and girth and texture of their big manly obsolete computer collection, but you're surprised when they drift off-topic and wax expert on other topics? I think the core of the problem is that, given off-topic topic X, this list tends to have a significant minority who cheerfully chime in about their experience in that non-CCC field. There's always going to be a fraction who are happy to go off-topic. Moderation will eventually piss off the bulk of the list, particularly if they think it's heavy-handed or inept. It's a thankless job. >I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages >are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough >flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic. >I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy >to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular >job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy. How did we shift from "weeks" to four posts that might've taken minutes to arrive? Pre-approving posts will lead to other accusations. Offers for free cool equipment are sometimes fulfilled in minutes here... and now the moderators get first pick. I've seen good moderators in my day. They had a very light hand on the reins. None of them succeeded in reforming the unwashed by repeatedly screaming "ASSSSSSSSS!" even if the heathen deserved it. You have considered that the offenders intended to drag a stick across your cage just to see what happened, right? - John From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 13:08:49 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: new find... References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> <01Aug21.135106edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B82A3B1.ECDAA0@texoma.net> My cube doesn't have a floppy. I've been considering looking for another faceplate (for a floppy cube), removing the OD and just haveing a floppy. I never use the floppy on my slab, I usually use the zip in the external housing. I did notice Rob had the N4000a's. I'm considering getting on as a spare. Rob doesn't like to ship the 21" monitors, but my wife said she would go on a road trip to Boulder to pick one up. It's only about 12-13 hours away from Dallas. Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >How funny. I picked up a NeXT '040 cube with Dimension board Sunday. > >It also was a N1000, upgraded to a 25mhz '040, a working OD, a > >nonfunctional HD, 64mb on the mb and 64mb on the Dimension. The N4000a > >monitor is crisp and bright. I'm talking with Rob of Black Hole about a > >Hitachi 21" for the Dimension side. The only thing I need is a > >monochtrome monitor cable. > > Cool...I'd love to eventually find a Dimension board...then I > could use my 17" Megapixel Color monitor with it vice the dim N4000a. > I did notice that Rob had N4000a's at $60. The killer there would be > the shipping. Thankfully mine came with the long mono cable. I take > it yours doesn't have a floppy drive? > > >The non-functioning hard drive is not a problem. I have a couple of > >copies of NS3.3 Dev, a junk box full of 2-4gb SCSI drives and I can set > >up a new boot drive from my Turbo Color slab. > > That'd be easy enough to do. I'll likely swap a larger drive > into this one as well and put NS 3.3 on it. The previous owner had > named this one 'Precious' so that's what you see when you're logged > on. > > Jeff > > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Aug 21 13:18:23 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <006001c12a6b$487551c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <13668912402.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> No, you misunderstood me - These are two lists of subscribers - It affects SENDING only. There would be only one recieve list. Basically, when the list software gets a message from someone, it does this: If the sender is on the moderated-senders-list, the message goes to a moderator. If not, it goes straight to the list. Does this help? ------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 13:18:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) (Adrian Vickers) References: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <15234.42468.225115.525528@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 21, Adrian Vickers wrote: > It's still possible to buy new Z80 CPUs (?2.50 in the UK); They're all over teh place here as well. They won't be going away anytime soon; they're very popular in the embedded systems market. > how many would it take to build a pentium-IV class machine? :) My guess: Raw integer performance: 500+ Reliability: 0.5 Elegance of Quality of design: 0.1 Programming enjoyability: 0.5 Innovativeness: 0.5 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 13:22:11 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) (Sellam Ismail) References: Message-ID: <15234.42707.954388.195379@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 21, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Look, R.D. You are the exact type of fellow I was thinking about the > other day when I talked about socially retarded people. You, as much as I > have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly, > indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY > RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take > EVERY opportunity to foist your pointless and tasteless opinions on > everyone else here, with little regard for OUR preferences, showing > absolute disrespect to everyone here. You are a SAD, SAD individual. I'm > sorry you didn't get that pony you always wanted, but we should NOT be > held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS! I can feel the love on this list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 13:27:00 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Adrian Vickers wrote: > It's still possible to buy new Z80 CPUs (£2.50 in the UK); how many would > it take to build a pentium-IV class machine? :) > Cheers! > Ade. This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one etches custom boards with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with, say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs? Peace... Sridhar From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 21 13:30:40 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 21, 01 06:49:32 pm Message-ID: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> > In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 > mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? > > I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are > missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath > life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain > transplant for it - for now, at least. eBay actually has two: One from Germany: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471 and one from the US: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681 Both still have very low prices... Bryan From r.stek at snet.net Tue Aug 21 13:31:24 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: VCF East keyboard purchasers Message-ID: <001001c12a6f$7c09d480$0301a8c0@bob> I sold a number of Cherry keyboards and cases at the VCF East, but unfortunately did not bring the bottom portion of the cases. I have already sent out bottoms to two individuals (Curt and Bob), but thought there might be another person or two wondering why he had two case tops but no bottom. So if you are one of those lucky individuals, contact me privately at r.stek@snet.net. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Aug 21 13:37:40 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: thoughts/opinions on computer collecting value Message-ID: <11b.33ba119.28b40474@aol.com> Every once in a while, someone will email me after seeing my computer collection and want to know how much x computer is worth. I usually reply back with the anecdotal reply 'its worth whatever someone pays for it' or give its real value, usually in the $5-50 range depending on what it is. After I told someone that, he said he was going to hang onto this certain computer for a while (nothing rare), like it will appreciate in value worth more than gold. I collect old outboard motors, and people are always surprised to hear that their 50-70 year old johnson outboard is only worth < $100. I've seen both computer and outboard collectors play down the monetary value of collecting these things more than the investment value and wanted to have an essay about it on my website for people to read, but what should it say? I'd like to have something written that would discourage speculative inflated prices for common machines so stupid people dont think an apple //c is worth $100 or similar. what do you say about collecting and value or lack of value thereof? remember, off topic posters will get the molten iron treatment! ACVM www.nothingtodo.org/classiccmp/museum.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/0789a276/attachment.html From glindsey at ssinc.com Tue Aug 21 13:42:22 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <01db01c12a71$15a39e40$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "James Rice" wrote: > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? My fiancee not only understands, she has purchased a Mac Classic herself (and in fact got me going again after a long break in my hobby). Of course, she wants it to do a custom paint job, but that's fine with me... I like doing the same on some of the less-rare equipment. I told her that when we start looking for houses, one of the criteria for the realtor will probably have to be 400 Amp service to handle all our equipment. :-) As for room right *now* for my collection, that's a bit of a problem for me at the moment... I believe I have a computer or peripheral or something of that sort crammed into every little nook I can find! GSL From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Aug 21 13:51:32 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821135022.03a08700@127.0.0.1> My wife feels lucky that she is able to contain my mainframes (now 2 VAX 11/780's) to one room in the house. I also collect full-size arcade games. I never accused her of being intolerant to my hobbies.... : ) - Matt At 02:02 PM 8/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > > I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect > > mainframes. > >...or wives. :-) > >-- >Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: >All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & >rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify >such >http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 12:53:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <13668905886.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an > unmoderated list. Normally people are on the unmoderated list of > subscribers. When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they > get moved to the moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only > then) their posts have to be OKed to make it to the list. What a great idea. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 12:55:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <005c01c12a69$9abd1460$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the list..... > > It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of > an unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;) > > Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ? Unfortunately, yes. And think about it this way: future hobbyists, historians and researches will have to wade through 50 off-topic and out of context messages before they find that ONE message that actually contains the information they were looking for. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 12:57:33 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <006001c12a6b$487551c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > This is an acceptable construct for newsgroups since you can readily > distingish between the two groups but it would be a nightmare for any > listmember that want's to receive both lists. A double stream of > Classic-stuff, partly pepperd with even more OT-dribble. There would still only be one list...all messages posted would go to the same list. It's just the messages that are being posted by twits that would go through a filter first. Of course, the open nature of the list will have to be mitigated. But all it means is that any postings from non-subscribers will simply go through the filter, which is good for catching spam anyway. It's a good solution. > Just a little bit of educational OT-stuff makes life enjoyable. It's > the "This is my conviction, and you've got to eat it" rants that I > hate. It seems that for too many nerdy nerds the classic-comp list is > the only emotional outlet they have. Sadly so. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bills at adrenaline.com Tue Aug 21 14:03:53 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one etches custom boards > with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes > several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting > MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with, > say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs? The University Of Maryland had something called ZMOB or Z-MOB in the early 1980s, which (if memory serves) was 256 4MHz Z80s, several Megs of bank-switched memory, etc. I never got to actually play with it or even see it, only heard about it. Frank McConnell may know more. From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 13:04:24 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821124251.00c50320@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > The list is full of self-appointed and voluble experts on very obscure > topics. You're happy when they're comparing the length and girth and > texture of their big manly obsolete computer collection, but you're > surprised when they drift off-topic and wax expert on other topics? No, but I am irked, as are many other folks, when they go on and on about senseless shit that doesn't belong on this list, or any list for that matter (i.e. R.D.'s political vomit). > I think the core of the problem is that, given off-topic topic X, this > list tends to have a significant minority who cheerfully chime in > about their experience in that non-CCC field. There's always going to > be a fraction who are happy to go off-topic. Moderation will > eventually piss off the bulk of the list, particularly if they think > it's heavy-handed or inept. It's a thankless job. Oh fucking well. > >I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages > >are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough > >flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic. > >I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy > >to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular > >job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy. > > How did we shift from "weeks" to four posts that might've taken > minutes to arrive? I was speaking of threads that go on for weeks, with many messages a day. If an off-topic thread consisting of four messages gets posted over the course of a week, I don't think people will care a whole lot. If four messages of an off-topic thread come in within minutes, that's the start of a thread that should be shit-canned. > Pre-approving posts will lead to other accusations. Offers for free > cool equipment are sometimes fulfilled in minutes here... and now the > moderators get first pick. That's a highly bogus concern. > I've seen good moderators in my day. They had a very light hand on > the reins. None of them succeeded in reforming the unwashed by > repeatedly screaming "ASSSSSSSSS!" even if the heathen deserved it. You know what? You're an ASS too. > You have considered that the offenders intended to drag a stick across > your cage just to see what happened, right? I'm not that cynical. I'm sorry you are. Oops, almost forgot... :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 12:50:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerr - IT WORKS In-Reply-To: <200108202309.TAA20064@hall.mail.mindspring.net> from "Louis Schulman" at Aug 20, 1 07:09:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 585 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/e6527c0e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:10:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: <001701c129d3$15f68400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 20, 1 05:51:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 786 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/2683c25f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:16:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: <872.633T1450T1374995optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 21, 1 02:17:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/76820fae/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:23:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <2091.633T1700T1915001optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 21, 1 03:11:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1411 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/07e867d5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:27:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010820225924.009fe210@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Aug 20, 1 10:59:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 870 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/1fd94761/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:30:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010821081538.014f04c4@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Aug 21, 1 08:15:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/bd435dc2/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 14:05:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010821195410.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one etches custom boards > >with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes > >several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting > >MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with, > >say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs? > > Heh! I like it... The chips would be cheaper in bulk as well, and with a > bit of heatsinking it should be possible to overclock them somewhat. How hot do Z80s get under normal operation? Would you be able to overclock them using heatsinks without fans? That would simplify things a bit. > Mind you, even with discounts you're looking at twenty grand just to sort > out your processor farm; and you still need the i/o logic... Yes, but how fast a computer would you get for $20,000? Would it be faster than other machines at that price? I don't think the I/O would be a big deal. You could use off-the-shelf components to do it. > Still, 8000 Z80s running at 4MHz could theoretically yield the equivalent > of 1 Z80 running at 32GHz. That's assuming that the task you're running can be parallelized to that degree. And plus, if you were to run each of these hypothetical 8-Z80 boards as a single CPU, you would have a 64-bit system. Peace... Sridhar > Would Manic Miner be playable at that speed? ;) > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 14:06:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <005d01c12a74$64bf0de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If the CPU's broken, surely you can get that ... The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and somebody, somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be easier to effect repairs than to find the complete and functional heart/lung/brain, eh? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:30 PM Subject: CBM 8032 SK > > In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 > > mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? > > > > I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are > > missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath > > life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain > > transplant for it - for now, at least. > > > eBay actually has two: > > One from Germany: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471 > > and one from the US: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681 > > Both still have very low prices... > > Bryan > > From zaft at azstarnet.com Tue Aug 21 14:08:56 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <13668912402.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <006001c12a6b$487551c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010821120741.00b81538@mail.azstarnet.com> FWIW, another list I am on is 'semi-moderated' in that new subscribers are always moderated; after they have proved themselves capable of intelligent discussion (:-)) they are unmoderated and their posts always go through. I believe the listowner implemented this himself. I'm not sure exactly how we would wish to implement such a thing here. GZ At 11:18 AM 8/21/2001 -0700, you wrote: >No, you misunderstood me - These are two lists of subscribers - >It affects SENDING only. There would be only one recieve list. > >Basically, when the list software gets a message from someone, it does this: >If the sender is on the moderated-senders-list, the message goes to a >moderator. >If not, it goes straight to the list. > >Does this help? >------- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 14:09:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: Message-ID: <006b01c12a74$cd711e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Naww ... a text search will distinguish the few messages that contain relevant information. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:55 AM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the list..... > > > > It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of > > an unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;) > > > > Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ? > > Unfortunately, yes. And think about it this way: future hobbyists, > historians and researches will have to wade through 50 off-topic and out > of context messages before they find that ONE message that actually > contains the information they were looking for. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 14:15:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B82A3B1.ECDAA0@texoma.net> References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> <01Aug21.135106edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B82A3B1.ECDAA0@texoma.net> Message-ID: <01Aug21.152126edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >My cube doesn't have a floppy. I've been considering looking for >another faceplate (for a floppy cube), removing the OD and just haveing >a floppy. I never use the floppy on my slab, I usually use the zip in >the external housing. I wouldn't be suprised if Rob had a faceplate or two stashed away somewhere. I can see where you might not feel the need to get a floppy for it though since it'd be easy enough for you to do the OS installs using your slab. That's really the only thing I use my floppy for. I'm going to take an Apple CD300 case and paint it and the faceplate of a NEC CDR-1410A black to match the NeXT. It'll then be close in both style and color to the original NeXT CD-ROM but faster. >I did notice Rob had the N4000a's. I'm considering getting on as a >spare. Rob doesn't like to ship the 21" monitors, but my wife said she >would go on a road trip to Boulder to pick one up. It's only about >12-13 hours away from Dallas. My 17" color monitor is really heavy...I'd hate to think what the 21" NeXT monitors must weigh. I'm going to drop him a note and see how dim the ones that he has are. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 14:20:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: <15234.42707.954388.195379@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <007101c12a76$49242e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It all depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it? If it's yours, look out, but it is, after all, the other guy's interests that don't matter. While I admit to participating in an occasional LONG OT thread, it's seldom occurred when I wasn't "drawn out" by one specific individual (who shall remain nameless), not that it's entirely his fault ... While I agree that it's often useful to have available machinery and components announced on the list, I would favor the deletion of promotion of other commercial activity of any sort whatsoever. There are, after all, other venues for shameless promotion of commercial activity. While everybody occasionally responds strongly to a part of a post, not having read the thing in its entirety, and certainly not having considered its meaning completely either, a lot of the traffic could be eliminated if folks would simply think before they type. This is more easily said than done, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) > On August 21, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Look, R.D. You are the exact type of fellow I was thinking about the > > other day when I talked about socially retarded people. You, as much as I > > have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly, > > indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY > > RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take > > EVERY opportunity to foist your pointless and tasteless opinions on > > everyone else here, with little regard for OUR preferences, showing > > absolute disrespect to everyone here. You are a SAD, SAD individual. I'm > > sorry you didn't get that pony you always wanted, but we should NOT be > > held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS! > > I can feel the love on this list. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 14:21:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: Message-ID: <007701c12a76$74f1dd80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes ... but one man's TWIT is another man's GURU. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:57 AM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > This is an acceptable construct for newsgroups since you can readily > > distingish between the two groups but it would be a nightmare for any > > listmember that want's to receive both lists. A double stream of > > Classic-stuff, partly pepperd with even more OT-dribble. > > There would still only be one list...all messages posted would go to the > same list. It's just the messages that are being posted by twits that > would go through a filter first. > > Of course, the open nature of the list will have to be mitigated. But > all it means is that any postings from non-subscribers will simply go > through the filter, which is good for catching spam anyway. > > It's a good solution. > > > Just a little bit of educational OT-stuff makes life enjoyable. It's > > the "This is my conviction, and you've got to eat it" rants that I > > hate. It seems that for too many nerdy nerds the classic-comp list is > > the only emotional outlet they have. > > Sadly so. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 14:27:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder References: Message-ID: <008b01c12a77$4b827440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> My thoughts exactly, Tony. There are even enough app-notes dealing with this problem that one should be able to find one for nearly any single-chipper. The trick is to find the details on the old MM5740 to enable one to emulate it in a single-chipper that can subsequently be patched into the application circuit. Given an i875x or even i8748, that shouldn't be too hard. It's really a preference issue once one gets to that point. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder > > something I can't see because it's not out of the box (yet). If the MM5740 > > (I'll look it up later, in an old NSC MOS LSI databook) is just a ROM lookup > > table, an exacto knife and a few wires will allow it to be adapted to a 2732 or > > It's not. It includes a ROM table, but it's a complete keyboard encoder > chip, with the scan counters, etc in it. You could hack a single-chip > micro in place of it, but not just a 2732 or simialr. > > Programming a 8751 or similar (or whatever your favourite microntroller > with enough I/O (you might want to use external binary to 1-of-n > decoders) is) to replace a keyboard encoder chip is a reasonable first > embedded microcontroller project, actually. It's not a time-critical > application, so your code doesn't have to be efficient. > > -tony > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 14:32:57 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821135022.03a08700@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > My wife feels lucky that she is able to contain my mainframes (now 2 VAX > 11/780's) to one room in the house. A VAX 11/780 isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672 G5's CPU (OT, incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o' power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer. > I also collect full-size arcade games. I wish I could. My VAXen and my mainframes take up too much time money power and space. > I never accused her of being intolerant to my hobbies.... : ) > > > - Matt From rdd at smart.net Tue Aug 21 14:54:42 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Look, R.D. You are the exact type of fellow I was thinking about the > other day when I talked about socially retarded people. You, as much as I Now see here Sellam, attempting to put others into that category which, in my opinion, you appear to fall into, solves nothing. > have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly, > indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY > RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take It behooves you not, in my opinion, to keep describing yourself in a loosing attempt to describe others. > EVERY opportunity to foist your pointless and tasteless opinions on > everyone else here, with little regard for OUR preferences, showing > absolute disrespect to everyone here. You are a SAD, SAD individual. I'm [Wow, the poor chap just can't tolerate some differing opinions.] > sorry you didn't get that pony you always wanted, but we should NOT be Now tell us Sellam, did you make that statement because your childhood was lacking something, such as a pony, that you always wanted? > held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS! It was kind of you to compare me to a donkey rather than comparing me to something such as yourself. :-) Also, you might want to do something about that sticking 's' key on your keyboard. [...] > wish I could change the font to a 128 pointsize so I could write "ASS" in > letters big enough to express how I feel about you. Sellam, I'm concerned about you. You really need to do something to control that anger before if causes you physical harm, such as causing you to have a stroke. Have you checked your blood pressure lately? > YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!! Sellam, I believe you said that once, don't you remember? > > However, that discussion did result in a discussion of engines > > controlled by classic computers. :-) > > YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Incoherent thoughts and memory failure are not a good sign... -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Aug 21 14:35:18 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? Message-ID: I have my classiccmp mail inscribed on stone tablets by a PDP 11/04 driving a dremel tool and then I read it "offline". Am I the oldest? Note: I just lost my sanity I'm 1 week behind on reading the news digests. Mike From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 21 14:39:31 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Room for Collections Message-ID: James Rice said: >Does anyone else keep their collection set up and functioning? Partially :-( I have room for a single rack, a small workbench to fix stuff, a small workbench to build stuff, and a few tables for the computer of the week, which rotates often. I also have some space in the garage to smoke test new stuff, and organize/clean it before it enters the house. >Does your SO understand? Partially :-) See below >I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect mainframes. HEY! That's MY excuse! I always claim she's lucky I don't need 3-phase power and permanent air conditioning to run my stuff. She just shrugs, smiles, and walks away... I just moved into a new house a few months ago, and I now have a finished basement to set some stuff up. I also have been granted permission to the loft above the 2-car garage. Now all I have to do is run power, and make a few windows, and I'm golden :-) Right now it's storage for the collection that doesn't fit in the basement. Once I get it fixed up, it'll be a neat space... Rich B. From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Aug 21 14:43:32 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Room for Collections Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821144324.02f25ad0@127.0.0.1> >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:42:55 -0500 >To: Master of all that Sucks >From: Matthew Sell >Subject: Re: Room for Collections > > >Although technically you are correct - I consider anything that weighs >over 1000 lbs, takes a kilowatt or two to operate, and more than oner >person to move - as a mainframe. > >It's big and made of steel. Big iron? : ) > > >As a discussion - what technically makes the difference between a >mainframe and a mini? Are there physical comparisons to be made or performance? > > > - Matt > > > >At 03:32 PM 8/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >>On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: >> >> > My wife feels lucky that she is able to contain my mainframes (now 2 VAX >> > 11/780's) to one room in the house. >> >>A VAX 11/780 isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672 G5's CPU (OT, >>incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully >>outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o' >>power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by >>itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer. >> >> > I also collect full-size arcade games. >> >>I wish I could. My VAXen and my mainframes take up too much time money >>power and space. >> >> > I never accused her of being intolerant to my hobbies.... : ) >> > >> > >> > - Matt > > >"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad >"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > >Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 21 14:44:12 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:35 2005 Subject: MuMath/MuSimp (was: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 21, 2001 07:30:38 PM Message-ID: <200108211944.f7LJiC718120@narnia.int.dittman.net> The first advanced math package I remember using on a microcomputer was MuMath/MuSimp. Whatever happened to it? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 14:53:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <01Aug21.152126edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >My cube doesn't have a floppy. I've been considering looking for > >another faceplate (for a floppy cube), removing the OD and just haveing > >a floppy. I never use the floppy on my slab, I usually use the zip in > >the external housing. > > I wouldn't be suprised if Rob had a faceplate or two stashed > away somewhere. I can see where you might not feel the need to get a > floppy for it though since it'd be easy enough for you to do the OS > installs using your slab. That's really the only thing I use my > floppy for. I'm going to take an Apple CD300 case and paint it and > the faceplate of a NEC CDR-1410A black to match the NeXT. It'll then > be close in both style and color to the original NeXT CD-ROM but > faster. Can you write NeXT optical disks from another platform? > >I did notice Rob had the N4000a's. I'm considering getting on as a > >spare. Rob doesn't like to ship the 21" monitors, but my wife said she > >would go on a road trip to Boulder to pick one up. It's only about > >12-13 hours away from Dallas. > > My 17" color monitor is really heavy...I'd hate to think what > the 21" NeXT monitors must weigh. I'm going to drop him a note and > see how dim the ones that he has are. Surprisingly, I think the 17" monitors are heavier than the 21". I have a 21" that isn't too bad to pick up (and I'm a pretty small guy), but is lighter than my DEC VR297-DA 17" Trinitron. Peace... Sridhar > Jeff > > > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Aug 21 14:27:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Hayes Chronograph on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >No bids as of 9pm EST. Item 1266277281. $9.00 $39 was the final bid, surprizingly low IMHO. Who got it? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 21 15:07:32 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225685@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large > room to set mine up. I currently have up and running: The Prime 2455 is set up and occupying the largest space, but is still non-op. :( One of the three Apollo's (the DN2500) is on the card table that was substituting as the kitchen table... I haven't turned it on since spring, I suppose I should pack it up... The PDP-11/23 is still in the hands of the buddy who rescued it for me (yes, for me, he has enought of them)... The Tandy 2000 is in storage... the Mac IIci is set up and running. The SOL needs dusting and prayers for the tantalum caps... The Objective Design S-100 frame which sat on the SOL in a previous incarnation needs the big electrolytics reconditioned... The Zenith Z-150/151 (I added a newer CPU card) was operational until 1995, and I haven't turned it on since. I moved it from on top of the clothes dryer to a spot next to it. The monitor is still on top of the dryer, tho... However, no SWMBO to provide advise, consent, or alternatives... ;-) -dq From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 15:12:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, William Donzelli wrote: > [collecting mainframes] > > > I do! > > What do you have, other than the S/390 G5? I have two P/390s, one P/390E, an S/390 G1, and an old non-working ES/9000 that I want to get working soon. > I try to get old IBM mainframe stuff when I can, but so far I have been > pretty unlucky getting any processors. What kind of stuff do you have? Peace... Sridhar > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 21 15:14:05 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: from "Master of all that Sucks" at Aug 21, 2001 03:32:57 PM Message-ID: <200108212014.f7LKE5O18245@narnia.int.dittman.net> > A VAX 11/780 isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672 G5's CPU (OT, > incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully > outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o' > power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by > itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer. I wouldn't mind having a fairly recent 9672 at home, but the cost and space are prohibitive. Incidentally, the R66->Z47 migration went pretty smooth. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 21 15:27:44 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS! > > It was kind of you to compare me to a donkey rather than comparing me > to something such as yourself. :-) Also, you might want to do > something about that sticking 's' key on your keyboard. > Yah, ok. I'll bite. Hey R.D.! You're a Sellaaaaaaaaaaaam! *laughs* Why don't you folks just knock this silliness off. Does it _really_ benefit anyone here? Face it, we're a big collection of ubergeeks that really enjoy old hardware. Who gives a rats ass whether or not we've got any social skills? Can't we just keep the politics and other obviously inflammatory (gun control, etc) topics to the water cooler and not this list? I swear, sometimes you guys run around in circles ranting and screaming like a woman with a bee up her dress. Please, lay off it will ya? g. From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Aug 21 15:16:00 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010820225924.009fe210@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> >What's wrong with the existing CRT? Lost it's vacuum? Open-circuit >heater? Inter-electrode shorts? If none of those, you should be able to >get something on the screen with it? The protective layer is delaminating from the tube. >I would guess the P39 is the screen phosphor (IIRC that's a common green >phosphor). Similar CRTs with a different phosphor should work. Yes it is the phosphor type. Since the tube is from a vector graphics display (my Imlac), I think that it needs the long persistence properties of the P39. I did locate (using google) the company http://www.questinc.com which has a P4 replacement CRT and can also remanufacture the existing tube. If I recall, P4 is a white phosphor isn't it? How does P4 compare to P39 for persistence? I don't have prices yet, but I am interested in the remanufacture possibility, if the risk is not too high. The tube is mostly useable as is, but the corners are getting a little anoying... >I wasn't aware Conrac made their own CRTs (I've only come across monitors, >etc made by them). So it may be a specially selected part (for some >performance characteristic), but otherwise be a standard CRT. You might >find another CRT that will at least work reasonably well in this unit. > >How much do you know about it (dimensions, deflection angle, pinout, >heater voltage, other electrode voltages?) It is a 15" diagonal (10"x13") and about 16" from the face to the end of the neck. Here is a picture of the tube electronics: http://www.ubanproductions.com/imlac_monitor.jpg --tom From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 21 15:28:57 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm in need of a Sun compatible CD-ROM drive with an external enclosure. I need it for a SPARCStation 1. If you've got one you can part with, please contact me off list. Thanks! g. -- http://www.f15sim.com From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 21 15:19:30 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Aug 21, 2001 03:39:31 PM Message-ID: <200108212019.f7LKJUR18269@narnia.int.dittman.net> > HEY! That's MY excuse! I always claim she's lucky I don't need 3-phase > power and permanent air conditioning to run my stuff. She just shrugs, > smiles, and walks away... After a year of "discussing" the issue I was allowed to add a window unit to my computer room. Before I would have to set the upstairs air conditioner to 68 to keep the computer room comfortable, but the rest of the upstairs would get too cold for my wife (separate units for upstairs and downstairs). Since getting the window unit we can set the main upstairs air conditioner to whatever makes her happy. After a couple of months with the window unit she made a remark that she wished she'd let me get the unit when we first moved in to the house. > I just moved into a new house a few months ago, and I now have a finished > basement to set some stuff up. I also have been granted permission to the > loft above the 2-car garage. Now all I have to do is run power, and make a > few windows, and I'm golden :-) Right now it's storage for the collection > that doesn't fit in the basement. Once I get it fixed up, it'll be a neat > space... In the Dallas area most houses don't have basements (too expensive to dig out a basement from the rock). I wish I did. I'm contemplating buying an outdoor building to put in the back yard. I figure if I run power to it and put in fairly good insulation it would make a great addition for some of the bigger stuff. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 21 15:25:44 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225686@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I confronted one of the profs there, and asked him why they didn't at > least teach their students about compilers. His response: "that's for > TECHNICIANS and OPERATORS. Computer scientists don't need to know that > petty stuff." I worked for a while with a Physics major who'd learned machine-language programming for the IBM PC using DEBUG.COM. He also had no conception of source file structure. After we hired him, he was assigned some programming tasks, and sent off to do his thing. A few days later, he asked me how to include his code into the system. I asked him for the file name, and just included his module in our batch files that did the system build. Kept getting errors on his module, so I asked him to assemble it and go through the listing and correct his errors (I hadn't even looked at it). "What's an assembler?" He was keeping multiple, un-related subprograms in a single monolithic source file, with none of the assembler directives that were needed to define the program's memory model and segment use. Also, no TITLE, etc stuff to make it pretty. I took the one subprogram whoes operation I could fathom, rewrote it to comply with the memory model, added some other directives, then shot it back to him and told him to either make each subprogram a separate module or figure out which *should* be together in the same module (based on data defs, etc). He wouldn't do it, and instead kept everything together. Then, he'd go through the extra work of extracting the subprograms, and placing them in separate source modules... but he'd do this extraction *every* time he made a set of changes to his huge monolithic source. I left there in 1990; on a visit back in 1995, I found he was no longer writing code, but was confined to performing installations. Thank God! -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 15:21:13 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Can you write NeXT optical disks from another platform? I don't believe so, but I could be wrong. I believe that since the NeXT MO was a pretty early example of the type that it is pretty much by itself format-wise. >Surprisingly, I think the 17" monitors are heavier than the 21". I have a >21" that isn't too bad to pick up (and I'm a pretty small guy), but is >lighter than my DEC VR297-DA 17" Trinitron. I know that the NeXT 17" color monitor is a good deal heavier than my NEC Multisync 75 17" monitor. The mono 17" NeXT monitor isn't bad though...plus it has the cool stand! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 21 15:38:02 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... In-Reply-To: References: <872.633T1450T1374995optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010821163802.00a082c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: [snip] >I am, of course, rather more excited by the ability to display an >arbitrary pattern on a row of LEDs connected to a (static) output port >than being able to display text on a CRT screen. Because even in the >worst case I can replace said LEDs with the LED side of some >opto-isolators. And use those to control triacs or relays. And the >'Control the World' :-) As am I -- In fact, I've started "hoarding" CoCo's (as yes, the 6809 is also *my* favourite 8-bitter) to use them in "real life control" applications, like turning on/off lights, reading thermoresistors, etc. 3 questions: Does anyone have some good schematics or facts/figures (no matter how basic) as to a good way to interface triacs to a classic computer? (I'm mainly worried about 2 things: circuit isolation & heat dissipation of the triac) ... Does anyone have some good schematics / advice on how to interface a 12 or 16-bit A/D chip to an 8-bit system? And lastly: Does anyone have any references to where I could purchase 40-pin board edge connectors (instead of the usual 44-pin) other than hacking said connectors with a dremel tool? Web references, book references, personal experience, *any* info is welcome! Thanks loads (and trying to keep the S/N ratio higher...) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 15:35:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: Re: new find... (James Rice) References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> <01Aug21.135106edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B82A3B1.ECDAA0@texoma.net> Message-ID: <15234.50719.241730.798186@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 21, James Rice wrote: > My cube doesn't have a floppy. I've been considering looking for > another faceplate (for a floppy cube), removing the OD and just haveing > a floppy. I never use the floppy on my slab, I usually use the zip in > the external housing. > > I did notice Rob had the N4000a's. I'm considering getting on as a > spare. Rob doesn't like to ship the 21" monitors, but my wife said she > would go on a road trip to Boulder to pick one up. It's only about > 12-13 hours away from Dallas. I have a bunch of 17" and 21" NeXT color monitors here in the DC area as well, cheap, if anyone is interested. No, I won't ship them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Aug 21 15:39:50 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: MuMath/MuSimp (was: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <200108211944.f7LJiC718120@narnia.int.dittman.net>; from dittman@dittman.net on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 02:44:12PM -0500 References: <200108211944.f7LJiC718120@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20010821133949.A18717@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Eric Dittman wrote: > The first advanced math package I remember using on a microcomputer was > MuMath/MuSimp. Whatever happened to it? It evolved into Derive (for DOS and Windows). Then TI used Derive to create the math software for the TI-92. They made a lot of changes, however, so you really couldn't say the -92 is running Derive -- more like a relative. Did you ever use MuStar? I have MuMath/MuSimp for the Apple ][. It uses an OS called ADIOS which works suspiciously like CP/M. The whole package was distributed by Microsoft, though I'm sure they didn't write it. Unfortunately MuStar wasn't ported to the Apple. -- Derek From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 21 15:42:00 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225686@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821153708.00c34a20@pc> At 04:25 PM 8/21/01 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >I worked for a while with a Physics major who'd learned machine-language >programming for the IBM PC using DEBUG.COM. He also had no conception of >source file structure. In the early 80s I worked at Sight and Sound Music Software, which had titles for the C-64 like Kawasaki Music Synthesizer and Kawasaki Rhythm Rocker. Ryo was already an established musician, and still is. See http://www.google.com/search?q=ryo+kawasaki . However, he also coded for the C-64 without an assembler. He just used the debugger. There was no source code. We first figured this out when we asked him how he did a certain effect, and he started reciting the hex opcodes. He didn't really know the mnemonics, he just memorized how to create the hex to match the opcodes he wanted. - John From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 16:04:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <200108212014.f7LKE5O18245@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > A VAX 11/780 isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672 G5's CPU (OT, > > incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully > > outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o' > > power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by > > itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer. > > I wouldn't mind having a fairly recent 9672 at home, but the > cost and space are prohibitive. I got mine from someone who must have thought, "It's big. It must be old!" LOL. I paid less than $250 for it. > Incidentally, the R66->Z47 migration went pretty smooth. Glad to hear it! Peace... Sridhar > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. > From kentborg at borg.org Tue Aug 21 16:06:49 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821144324.02f25ad0@127.0.0.1>; from msell@ontimesupport.com on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 02:43:32PM -0500 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821144324.02f25ad0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20010821170649.D7204@borg.org> If I read the quoting correctly (sound familiar?), Matthew Sell asked: >As a discussion - what technically makes the difference between a >mainframe and a mini? Are there physical comparisons to be made or >performance? It is an ecosystem thing. It's an IBM thing. A "mainframe" is a computer that, when new, was classed with the biggest, nastiest, business IBMs available. It doesn't matter if it weighs a lot or is faster than the mainframes of an earlier generation, it depends upon its own generation. Also, the fastest supercomputers of an era are kinda beyond mainframe, and they lose their "super" qualification as new computers exceed them and become "former supercomputers". Mainframes tend to stay mainframes--obsolete maybe, but still mainframes. And frequently are still in use long after they become obsolete. Mainframes tend to put a lot of effort into highspeed IO, are expensive, and can do lots of transactions well. (Because expensive means you want to keep them busy.) -kb From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 21 16:08:40 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF In-Reply-To: <3B826CDB.3BFCAD20@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > R. D. Davis wrote: > > > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. > > > > Yes he does. The economy is purely psychological. If enough people > > think it's bad, it will be bad, and vice versa. If he and the other > > politicrats went out and started talking about how the economy > > miraculously improved overnight, it would. > > The stock market is emotionally run, much of the time, I'll give you > that. The economy on a whole is influenced by emotional factors, too. > To say that the economy is purely psychological is an over > simplification. Agreed, but when you consider that consumer spending makes up about two-thirds of the Gross National Product, there is certainly a substantial element of truth in it also! Certainly consumer spending is modified somewhat by the group psychological mood. - don > > > > > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > > > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > > > economy over night. > > > > It's obvious that g. dubya bushbooger wanted people to think the > > economy was worsening so that he could take credit for "fixing" the > > economy through various policies..... > > So some guy running for president said the economy was worsening, and > the whole world believed him, ok sure. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 21 16:11:41 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010821221141.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 02:30 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, you wrote: >> In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 >> mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? >> >> I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are >> missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath >> life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain >> transplant for it - for now, at least. > > >eBay actually has two: > >One from Germany: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471 That would be the one :) No keyboard? No problem: I have a keyboard, and a dead base unit... > >and one from the US: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681 > >Both still have very low prices... > For reference (to other UK readers), it costs $90 to ship an 8032 to the UK - and that's 4-6wk surface; I dread to think what the airmail price would be... Odd when you think that it's possible to fly a whole person (e.g. 200lbs) to the States & back for the same money... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 21 15:15:05 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 03:54:42PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010821151505.A6679624@uiuc.edu> R. D. Davis said: > > have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly, > > indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY > > RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take > > It behooves you not, in my opinion, to keep describing yourself in a > loosing attempt to describe others. > Wow... we've reached the "I know you are but what am I" level of retort. I think most people outgrew that in the 2nd or 3rd grade. > [Wow, the poor chap just can't tolerate some differing opinions.] I don't see it that way. RD, as a relatively new list member, I can't help but agree with Sellam, though my feelings may not be quite as...er...strong as his. If you can justify how semi-incoherent rantings about the president BELONG on this list and are ON-TOPIC -- and do so in such a way that you convince even 5 people here -- then all the more power to you. If you can't do so, then you're behaving, well, like an ass, and I think it would be appreciated it you took rants to a more appropriate forum. And just for the record...I agree with your opinions about the president, so don't go accusing me of not being able to "tolerate some differing opinions." I just have the maturity to realize that this isn't the place for it, and I frankly don't want to hear about it when I look at this mailbox in order to read about classic computers. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 16:12:26 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> <01db01c12a71$15a39e40$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> Message-ID: <3B82CEBA.B313109@texoma.net> My problem isn't power capacity, it A/C capacity. With Texas heat plus the heat from all of the equipment, it gets pretty warm in the office/computer room. Greg Lindsey wrote: > > "James Rice" wrote: > > > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > > functioning? Does your SO understand? > > My fiancee not only understands, she has purchased a Mac Classic herself > (and in fact got me going again after a long break in my hobby). Of course, > she wants it to do a custom paint job, but that's fine with me... I like > doing the same on some of the less-rare equipment. > > I told her that when we start looking for houses, one of the criteria for > the realtor will probably have to be 400 Amp service to handle all our > equipment. :-) As for room right *now* for my collection, that's a bit of > a problem for me at the moment... I believe I have a computer or peripheral > or something of that sort crammed into every little nook I can find! > > GSL From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 21 16:18:08 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <005d01c12a74$64bf0de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 01:06 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: >If the CPU's broken, surely you can get that ... I expect Farnell carry it (that's where I got the Z80 prices from), but a quick search on "6502" revealed nothing; but I only did it quickly, so may have made a mistake. >The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and somebody, >somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides, Maplin seem to have mislaid my order for a bunch of soldering-related kit (e.g. the desolderer), so no major surgery can take place yet :( >If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be easier to effect repairs than >to find the complete and functional heart/lung/brain, eh? Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either not starting up, or the beeper is dead (and without the screen, the beeper is the only means of checking whether it works or not; well, maybe. I could just plug in a diskdrive and try it... Actually, I like the look of the German -SK; without a keyboard it should have relatively low collectability value, so it's going to be spares hunters like myself who will go for it. Anyway, even if I do end up spending a bit too much, I should be able to farm out my duff one for a few quid :) OTOH, I'll probably put it in storage in case anything else goes pop. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bryan Pope" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:30 PM >Subject: CBM 8032 SK > >> > In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 >> > mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? >> > >> > I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are >> > missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath >> > life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain >> > transplant for it - for now, at least. >> >> eBay actually has two: >> >> One from Germany: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471 >> >> and one from the US: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681 >> >> Both still have very low prices... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 16:20:10 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <15234.50719.241730.798186@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> <01Aug21.135106edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B82A3B1.ECDAA0@texoma.net> <15234.50719.241730.798186@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I have a bunch of 17" and 21" NeXT color monitors here in the DC >area as well, cheap, if anyone is interested. No, I won't ship them. Dave, Have any of the mono monitors by chance? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Tue Aug 21 16:23:20 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: MuMath/MuSimp (was: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <20010821133949.A18717@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Aug 21, 2001 01:39:50 PM Message-ID: <200108212123.f7LLNKC18480@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The first advanced math package I remember using on a microcomputer was > > MuMath/MuSimp. Whatever happened to it? > > It evolved into Derive (for DOS and Windows). Then TI used Derive > to create the math software for the TI-92. They made a lot of changes, > however, so you really couldn't say the -92 is running Derive -- more like > a relative. Ha!, so the Subject: change wasn't really needed. I never used MuStar. > I have MuMath/MuSimp for the Apple ][. It uses an OS called ADIOS > which works suspiciously like CP/M. The whole package was distributed > by Microsoft, though I'm sure they didn't write it. Unfortunately > MuStar wasn't ported to the Apple. I first used MuMath/MuSimp on the TRS-80 Model I, and later for CP/M. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 16:23:27 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: new find... References: <498.629T2800T9266897optimus@canit.se> <3B7DBE30.C1AFBBB0@rain.org> <20010821095246.A7204@borg.org> <01Aug21.121933edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B8293A2.D94AA52E@texoma.net> <01Aug21.135106edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B82A3B1.ECDAA0@texoma.net> <01Aug21.152126edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B82D14F.9D96D2E4@texoma.net> I have recently purchased several 12x Toshiba CD-ROMs that were already painted a satin black. But for the cube, I have an original NeXT CD-ROM. I've even collected a bunch of NeXT logo power cords and SCSI cables. I'm going to check with Rob when I finalize plans to make the trip concerning the floppy faceplate. It's not the weight that is the problem with shipping, it's the fact that they almost never make the trip in one piece. He says that both FexEx ground and UPS seem to take the opportunity to drop test cartons when ever he ships a 21" monitor. Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >My cube doesn't have a floppy. I've been considering looking for > >another faceplate (for a floppy cube), removing the OD and just haveing > >a floppy. I never use the floppy on my slab, I usually use the zip in > >the external housing. > > I wouldn't be suprised if Rob had a faceplate or two stashed > away somewhere. I can see where you might not feel the need to get a > floppy for it though since it'd be easy enough for you to do the OS > installs using your slab. That's really the only thing I use my > floppy for. I'm going to take an Apple CD300 case and paint it and > the faceplate of a NEC CDR-1410A black to match the NeXT. It'll then > be close in both style and color to the original NeXT CD-ROM but > faster. > > >I did notice Rob had the N4000a's. I'm considering getting on as a > >spare. Rob doesn't like to ship the 21" monitors, but my wife said she > >would go on a road trip to Boulder to pick one up. It's only about > >12-13 hours away from Dallas. > > My 17" color monitor is really heavy...I'd hate to think what > the 21" NeXT monitors must weigh. I'm going to drop him a note and > see how dim the ones that he has are. > > Jeff > > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 16:03:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: <008b01c12a77$4b827440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 21, 1 01:27:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/ebfc0e02/attachment.ksh From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 15:30:57 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Amiga 500 and stuff to good home Message-ID: Please respond directly to the original sender. Reply-to: Jim Fraser ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:20:12 -0400 From: Jim Fraser Subject: Amiga 500 and stuff Hi, I have an Amiga 500 with monitor, extra floppy drive, 500K memory card and 4 boxes of software. Also have a Panasonic dot matrix printer - all vintage 1985 - and all works. I have several of the kernel manuals too. See the attached photos. Note the original boxes. I'm about to toss everything into the trash unless there is someone interested in collecting it, or even using for spare parts. I'll pack up and split the shipping cost (from Fairfax, VA) with anyone in the US who wants it. Please let me know if anyone's interested by September 8th. Best regards, Jim Fraser jcfrase@att.net -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Aug 21 16:33:34 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: ; from geneb@deltasoft.com on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 01:28:57PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010821163334.A6694639@uiuc.edu> Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any cdrom drive that supports a 512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system) will boot Suns and let you install SunOS/Solaris. Older NECs (maybe newer ones too, I haven't used any) and Plextor drives of any vintage work great for this. Gene Buckle said: > I'm in need of a Sun compatible CD-ROM drive with an external > enclosure. I need it for a SPARCStation 1. If you've got one you can > part with, please contact me off list. > > Thanks! > > g. > > -- > http://www.f15sim.com > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 16:32:30 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Room for Collections References: Message-ID: <3B82D36E.44912833@texoma.net> Texas houses don't have basements. When we built our house two years ago, I pre cabled the office. There are six 20 AMP circuits in the room and I have 24 10/100 ethernet jacks along the three walls. The fourth wall is the wet bar with refrigerator and the server closet for the servers, hubs, ISDN routers and in November, the DSL router/modem. Makes it convenient. Rich Beaudry wrote: > I just moved into a new house a few months ago, and I now have a finished > basement to set some stuff up. I also have been granted permission to the > loft above the 2-car garage. Now all I have to do is run power, and make a > few windows, and I'm golden :-) Right now it's storage for the collection > that doesn't fit in the basement. Once I get it fixed up, it'll be a neat > space... > > Rich B. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 15:35:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <000d01c12a89$44db6680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's what I was mentioning in my earlier post. The Z80 and 6502, which are of about the same vintage and technology, though entirely different architecture, were designed with an eye to control applications, which were the bread-and-butter of their intended tasks, unlike the 6809, which was designed to be used for those "larger" applications, that would benefit from the more orthogonal instruction set and from the features that make generation of large programs more likely to hit their market window. From the standpoint of their respective "power" in computing applications, the 6809 is, in every way, a more likely preferred choice among computer scientists, though it probably won't outperform either of the other two in a race to get a specific task done, simply because the earlier two, particularly the 6502, could exercise the memory at a much higher rate, assuming that you had the memory bandwidth available. What was the fastest 6809 that you ever got to run back in the early '80's? Synertek was shipping a 6502 guaranteed to operate at 4 MHz bus cycle. That required <200 ns SRAMs. To operate a similarly fast bus, ("E" clock) the 6809 would have had to run from a 16 MHz clock, unless memory fails me. The 6809 was MOT's acknowledgment that microprocessor applications had wandered into a computing-intensive realm that needed an elegant architecture. They just weren't willing to impinge on the domain of their already-under-development 68K series in order to put their "elegant" 8-bitter out there. Their offering the 6809 also suggests that an elegant-from-the-inside processor could surpass the 16-bit offering from Intel because it could be programmed quite easily in assembler, where the irregularities of the earlier architectures made programming in the large favor the use of high-level languages that tend to be relatively inefficient on small machines. Even today's compilers demand several hundred Kbytes for a simple "hello-world" program on one of today's machines, while it took well fewer than 256 bytes of executable code to print a short text string on a Z-80 or 6502. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:23 PM Subject: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > > >If we ignore the registers which are likely to be 'special' on any real > > >processor (PC and flags, for example), then IIRC, the 6809 has the > > >following registers : > > > > >A, B (Accumulators, can be considered to be the 16 bit D register) > > > > >X,Y (Index registers) > > > > >U,S (Stack pointers) > > > > >DP (Direct Page pointer). > > [snip] > > > > >But in general, U and S are equivalent. So are X and Y. And in some > > >cases, even all of X, Y, U, S can be used in the same way. For a > > >processor with only a few registers, that's pretty reasonable. > > > > But then again, that's a lot of registers compared to the 6502. And they'= > > re > > You say that as if it's a bad thing. FWIW my favourite processor has 256 > intenral registers, all general-purpose. I can write code like R4:=R4 AND > R250, for example -- there's no accumulator. > > > not as flexible as the 68000 set of registers, AFAIK. > > True. I was comparing the 6809 (my favourite 8-bitter) with the 6502. > There are 16 bit processors (the 68000 is amongst them) which I also > like. Although I have to say I find the PDP11 to be a lot 'cleaner' than > the 68000. > > > Tell me, are there any common eight-bitters with more registers than the = > > 6809? > > Sure, the Z80 for one (A, F, B, C, D, E, H, L, A', F', B', C', D', E', > H', L' , I, R (all 8 bit), IX, IY, SP, PC (16 bit)). However, IMHO the > instruction set is nowhere near as orthogonal as the 6809. > > -tony > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Aug 21 16:38:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225687@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > At 04:25 PM 8/21/01 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >I worked for a while with a Physics major who'd learned machine-language > >programming for the IBM PC using DEBUG.COM. He also had no conception of > >source file structure. [..snip..] > Ryo was already an established musician, and still is. See > http://www.google.com/search?q=ryo+kawasaki . However, he > also coded for the C-64 without an assembler. He just used > the debugger. There was no source code. We first figured > this out when we asked him how he did a certain effect, > and he started reciting the hex opcodes. He didn't really > know the mnemonics, he just memorized how to create the > hex to match the opcodes he wanted. it's a nice skill to have in *addition* to knowing how to use the assembler, construct an application, etc. for the system in question, we used SoftIce as the debugger. I'd set up bounds-checking breakpoints to catch the errors of programmer #2 (best friend of #1, the physics major), who simply *refused* to range-check any values... -dq From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 16:39:28 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: new find... References: Message-ID: <3B82D510.E5B579C0@texoma.net> Format and interface of the OD were NeXT only. My NeXt 17:" is heavier than recent 17" I've carried. I imagine that the NeXT 21" weigh a ton. I think Rob said the 21" weighed around 80 pounds. I love the ""Frog Design" stand on the N4000 monitors. Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >Can you write NeXT optical disks from another platform? > > I don't believe so, but I could be wrong. I believe that > since the NeXT MO was a pretty early example of the type that it is > pretty much by itself format-wise. > > >Surprisingly, I think the 17" monitors are heavier than the 21". I have a > >21" that isn't too bad to pick up (and I'm a pretty small guy), but is > >lighter than my DEC VR297-DA 17" Trinitron. > > I know that the NeXT 17" color monitor is a good deal heavier > than my NEC Multisync 75 17" monitor. The mono 17" NeXT monitor > isn't bad though...plus it has the cool stand! > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 21 16:38:57 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <15234.42468.225115.525528@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010821223857.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 02:18 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, you wrote: >On August 21, Adrian Vickers wrote: >> It's still possible to buy new Z80 CPUs (?2.50 in the UK); > > They're all over teh place here as well. They won't be going away >anytime soon; they're very popular in the embedded systems market. > >> how many would it take to build a pentium-IV class machine? :) > > My guess: > > Raw integer performance: 500+ > Reliability: 0.5 > Elegance of Quality of design: 0.1 Oh, I don't know. You could be quite arty about it. For instance, make a huuuge PCB in the shape of your room, and hang it from the ceiling... Don't forget to leave a hole (or two) for the lightbulb! Of course, the internal architecture would be a nightmare... > Programming enjoyability: 0.5 > Innovativeness: 0.5 Is that a scale of 0-1 BTW? Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 16:50:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) References: Message-ID: <001c01c12a8b$5245a040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since parts have gotten faster, and since SRAMs are pretty cheap, it would probably be fun to put a bunch of 20MHz Z80C00 (Z84C0020) types, some of which are still out there in distribution, together with a 64K SRAM chip for each, onto a board and let each one communicate with a "master" processor that loads code to and processes semaphores from each one. That might provide an interesting environment in which to fiddle with simple parallel processing. If one could get the alleged 14MHz 65C02, it would be even easier to do with that one, since it doesn't access memory during half its bus cycle, so a communication path always exists between the master and slaves' memory. It's been claimed that these 14 MHz processors, if they exist, (see www.westerndesigncenter.com) happily run at 20 MHz under ordinary (room temperature, etc) conditions. 20 MHz 65C02's would be WAY faster than 20 MHz Z80's. (Now, this doesn't mean other Z80 scions, but only Z84C0020's!) You might be surprised what a bunch of these guys can do when working on the same tasks together. I once used 6 65C02's to process a graphics array in such a way that 8-bit indexing was all they needed for each to paint within his own domain. The fact that they all ran the same code, and hardware mapped each one into its own portion of the display memory array, made for a very fast drawing engine. The display refresh logic and master processor had to work out who was going into memory next, but the 6502's didn't have to concern themselves with that at all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Master of all that Sucks" To: "Adrian Vickers" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:05 PM Subject: Re: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Adrian Vickers wrote: > > > >This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one etches custom boards > > >with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes > > >several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting > > >MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with, > > >say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs? > > > > Heh! I like it... The chips would be cheaper in bulk as well, and with a > > bit of heatsinking it should be possible to overclock them somewhat. > > How hot do Z80s get under normal operation? Would you be able to > overclock them using heatsinks without fans? That would simplify things a > bit. > > > Mind you, even with discounts you're looking at twenty grand just to sort > > out your processor farm; and you still need the i/o logic... > > Yes, but how fast a computer would you get for $20,000? Would it be > faster than other machines at that price? I don't think the I/O would be > a big deal. You could use off-the-shelf components to do it. > > > Still, 8000 Z80s running at 4MHz could theoretically yield the equivalent > > of 1 Z80 running at 32GHz. > > That's assuming that the task you're running can be parallelized to that > degree. And plus, if you were to run each of these hypothetical 8-Z80 > boards as a single CPU, you would have a 64-bit system. > > Peace... Sridhar > > > Would Manic Miner be playable at that speed? ;) > > Cheers! > > Ade. > > -- > > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 16:59:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder References: Message-ID: <004001c12a8c$91d49260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The GRI version of the keyboard uses a customed version of a 40-pin GI keyboard encoder. If one has the old data books lying about (which I may ???) then one could work out the rows and columns, and simply add a translation (lookup) EPROM, couldn't one? It's been done before, though I have misplaced the EPROM I once used, having bought a couple of nice keyboards that turned out not to produce the desired codes. This wasn't, of course, done for an Apple ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:03 PM Subject: Re: Apple II+ Keyboard Encoder > > > > My thoughts exactly, Tony. There are even enough app-notes dealing with this > > problem that one should be able to find one for nearly any single-chipper. The > > Sure... You want a microcontroller with a fair number of I/O lines (7 > data bits + strobe to the host, shift/control/repeat key inputs, key > matrix lines) so an 18 pin PIC would not be a good choice (you'd need so > many extra TTL chips to get the I/O that you might as well build the > whole thing in TTL :-)). But an 8748 or 8751 or 6811-series, or... would > be fine. > > > trick is to find the details on the old MM5740 to enable one to emulate it in a > > If it is that version of the keyboard, the schematic (including the > pinout of the MM5740, at least the pins that are used) is in the Apple ][ > Reference Manual (it's Figure 17, page 101 in my edition). You also know > what codes the keyboard should send to the Apple mainboard, so it's not > going to be hard to work out what to do... > > > single-chipper that can subsequently be patched into the application circuit. > > Given an i875x or even i8748, that shouldn't be too hard. It's really a > > preference issue once one gets to that point. > > Agreed.... Pick the chip you know best -- any of them will be suitable :-) > > -tony > > From owad at applefritter.com Tue Aug 21 16:59:12 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> References: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Message-ID: <20010821215912.27055@mail.earthlink.net> >This list is for discussion of classic computers and narrowly related >issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If you >want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary or flaming, >take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want less than to be >perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the interest of the list >subscribers at large I felt the need to bring this up. There are plenty of >majordomo configuration or filtering solutions available to me that will >address this, but I truely do not want to go that route. > >Let's keep the signal-to-noise ratio within reasonable limits. Please? Thank you! Personally, it wouldn't bother _me_ at all if people perceived _you_ as heavy-handed. ;) Sincerely, Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 21 17:03:02 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF In-Reply-To: <3B826CDB.3BFCAD20@internet1.net> Message-ID: -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 9:15 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF -> -> -> R. D. Davis wrote: -> > It's obvious that g. dubya bushbooger wanted people to think the -> > economy was worsening so that he could take credit for "fixing" the -> > economy through various policies..... -> -> So some guy running for president said the economy was worsening, and -> the whole world believed him, ok sure. -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA I have to agree here...Bush did nothing to change any economical stature...the economy always slows with an election and worse if it's the end of term (no chance for re-election) of the last pres. I got hit by a layoff last October and still managed to start my own business, with the same customers I served for an employer (I gave them what they paid for, unlike my employer). Corporate America tends to flux with things like the interest rate, stock market, etc. All of that helps to adjust the overall spending as well when people are making lots of money they spend lots - when they are laid off or fired they tend to stop spending. The economy wasn't that great to begin with but people seemed to feel good about things with no changes in leadership (if you can use that term with WJC) since the early 90's. All of a sudden we're looking at change again and the whole population has a tendancy to freak due to the change, no matter who is eligible to take the job. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 17:10:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... References: <872.633T1450T1374995optimus@canit.se> <3.0.1.32.20010821163802.00a082c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <005201c12a8e$19cd6ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:38 PM Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > 3 questions: > > Does anyone have some good schematics or facts/figures (no matter how > basic) as to a good way to interface triacs to a classic computer? (I'm > mainly worried about 2 things: circuit isolation & heat dissipation of the > triac) ... > Take a look at the Motorola Optoelectronics Databook. That has optoisolated triac drivers, SCR drivers, etc. in addition to the usual optoisolators. Also, take a look at Burr-Brown's isolation hardware. They've got a couple of pretty good devices I once used to provide isolation between the stage (@2KV reference with respect to earth) and the interface logic (@earth-ground reference) on a scanning electron microscope for auto-registrathion/alignment of wafers in an IC fab. They're capable of over 2 KV of isolation and 80MHz of bandwidth. > > Does anyone have some good schematics / advice on how to interface a 12 or > 16-bit A/D chip to an 8-bit system? > there are converters in both directions that operate serially, not to mention a few that work byte+nybble. Check with www.maxim-ic.com and www.analog.com > > And lastly: Does anyone have any references to where I could purchase > 40-pin board edge connectors (instead of the usual 44-pin) other than > hacking said connectors with a dremel tool? > more info is needed here. What pin pitch are you after? If you want the most common 44-pin connector's pitch (0.157") there may be trouble, but Gateway Electronics in Denver, (they don't even have a web site!) (303) 458-5444 had a few dual 20's on 0.100" pitch when I last looked. > > Web references, book references, personal experience, *any* info is welcome! There are LOTS of sites that handle "controlling the world" interface issues, and may show up on GOOGLE searches using simply the most obvious search terms. Try "stepping motor" or Fourier Series, just for grins ... > > Thanks loads (and trying to keep the S/N ratio higher...) > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 21 17:24:31 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: <20010821163334.A6694639@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: > Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any cdrom drive that supports a > 512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system) > will boot Suns and let you install SunOS/Solaris. Older NECs (maybe newer > ones too, I haven't used any) and Plextor drives of any vintage work great for > this. > Thanks for the info Dan. One of the list members made me a VERY good offer on a sun drive in a 411 box so I'm going after that. :) I still need to pick up a 10BaseT SBUS board as well as a cheap framebuffer and a Sun -> PC display & mouse/keyboard adaptor so I can use my existing KVM. After I've got the SS1 set up the way I need it (firewall), I think I'm going to get a SS10 machine I can load up with RAM & CPU and use that for other misc. amusements. Tnx! g. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 17:10:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <20010821170649.D7204@borg.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Kent Borg wrote: > If I read the quoting correctly (sound familiar?), Matthew Sell > asked: > >As a discussion - what technically makes the difference between a > >mainframe and a mini? Are there physical comparisons to be made or > >performance? > > It is an ecosystem thing. It's an IBM thing. > > A "mainframe" is a computer that, when new, was classed with the > biggest, nastiest, business IBMs available. > > It doesn't matter if it weighs a lot or is faster than the mainframes > of an earlier generation, it depends upon its own generation. Also, > the fastest supercomputers of an era are kinda beyond mainframe, and > they lose their "super" qualification as new computers exceed them and > become "former supercomputers". Mainframes tend to stay > mainframes--obsolete maybe, but still mainframes. And frequently are > still in use long after they become obsolete. I think the distinction between supercomputers and mainframes is even deeper than that. Supercomputers are designed to do things very very fast. Mainframes are designed to do many many things at once. The two goals frequently aren't convergent. > Mainframes tend to put a lot of effort into highspeed IO, are > expensive, and can do lots of transactions well. (Because expensive > means you want to keep them busy.) Mainframes are very good at serving thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of *simultaneous* transactions. Peace... Sridhar > -kb > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 17:15:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF References: Message-ID: <006201c12a8e$cce0ed20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Of course in GOV-speak, that's "consumer confidence" but it means that consumers don't think they'll be able to buy another new computer and that drags down the economy. They had the fellow who WAS the publisher of the "Industry Standard" (E-tech) magazine (now no longer publishing) on the News Hour on PBS last evening, and he made a few remarks suggesting that people knew that the high-tech sector was all bound together. Once they saw it start to crumble, they knew they were dead. People often tighten their belts, but generally too late. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Re: GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF > > > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > R. D. Davis wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > George Bush doesn't have anything to do with the economy being down. > > > > > > Yes he does. The economy is purely psychological. If enough people > > > think it's bad, it will be bad, and vice versa. If he and the other > > > politicrats went out and started talking about how the economy > > > miraculously improved overnight, it would. > > > > The stock market is emotionally run, much of the time, I'll give you > > that. The economy on a whole is influenced by emotional factors, too. > > To say that the economy is purely psychological is an over > > simplification. > > Agreed, but when you consider that consumer spending makes up about > two-thirds of the Gross National Product, there is certainly a > substantial element of truth in it also! Certainly consumer spending is > modified somewhat by the group psychological mood. > > - don > > > > > > > > The Economy started downwards before he was even in office. He didn't > > > > ruin VCF for you, either. The president doesn't magically change the > > > > economy over night. > > > > > > It's obvious that g. dubya bushbooger wanted people to think the > > > economy was worsening so that he could take credit for "fixing" the > > > economy through various policies..... > > > > So some guy running for president said the economy was worsening, and > > the whole world believed him, ok sure. > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Michigan, USA > > > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 21 17:12:48 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010821080622.009addf0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Try this one, not sure if it's current but it's where I used to buy from until the first of this year. They sell tubes for data displays, marine, medical, instrumentation, broadcast, CCTV, etc. USA: Richardson Electronics, LTD 1-800-222-2787 UK: Richardson Electronics (Europe) LTD Inspring House Searby Road Lincoln LN2 4DT England (01522) 542631 -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Uban -> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 8:06 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: where can a replacement CRT be found? -> -> -> Just the tube. -> -> At 12:16 AM 8/21/01 -0500, you wrote: -> >You want the whole unti or just the tube? -> > -> >-> -----Original Message----- -> >-> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> >-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Uban -> >-> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:59 PM -> >-> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> >-> Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? -> >-> -> >-> -> >-> Does anyone know who might carry a replacement CRT for -> >-> an old mid 60s display? The manufacturer and part -> >-> number are: Conrac 14386P39 -> >-> -> >-> --tnx -> >-> --tom -> >-> -> >-> -> > -> > -> From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 17:17:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010821221141.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <006801c12a8f$1a141c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The 200# person is capable of seeing to it he doesn't get hurt, though, while someone else has to be paid to prevent damage to the computer. What you might be able to work with the eBay seller is just to ship the mainboard. How's that sound? Then he can sell the rest again. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:11 PM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 02:30 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, you wrote: > >> In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 > >> mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? > >> > >> I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are > >> missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath > >> life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain > >> transplant for it - for now, at least. > > > > > >eBay actually has two: > > > >One from Germany: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471 > > That would be the one :) No keyboard? No problem: I have a keyboard, and a > dead base unit... > > > > >and one from the US: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681 > > > >Both still have very low prices... > > > > For reference (to other UK readers), it costs $90 to ship an 8032 to the UK > - and that's 4-6wk surface; I dread to think what the airmail price would > be... > > Odd when you think that it's possible to fly a whole person (e.g. 200lbs) > to the States & back for the same money... > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 16:21:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: where can a replacement CRT be found? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Aug 21, 1 03:16:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/dbe4a2be/attachment.ksh From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Aug 21 17:17:36 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:36 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010821180113.00a5cb80@mail.wincom.net> I have just been given a Model One (which I haven't got into yet,) and a Model 4, along with some manuals and drives. One of the external drives is a BASF Model 6106, would this by chance be an early hard drive? It is built like a full height floppy, but there is no place to put one! Any information on it would be much appreciated. The Model 4 is suffering from a bad keyboard, (dead except for reset button,) and is working with one borrowed from another Model 4. Does anyone have information on it? It is not covered in the 4 technical reference manual. I haven't been able to get the 4 to recognize drive "1". I have five full height floppies on hand, and all will work OK as drive "0", but not as drive "1". I have checked the cable and it has the required missing contacts, "12, 14, 32" for "0" and "10, 14, 32" for "1", but still no action. I can't find any jumpers on the Texas Peripherals drives, am I missing something? Thanks Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 16:52:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010821163802.00a082c0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 21, 1 04:38:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/1f374a6f/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 17:20:33 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Master of all that Sucks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B82D510.E5B579C0@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > Format and interface of the OD were NeXT only. My NeXt 17:" is heavier > than recent 17" I've carried. I imagine that the NeXT 21" weigh a ton. > I think Rob said the 21" weighed around 80 pounds. I would guess at a number lighter than that. My NeXT 21" isn't THAT heavy. In any case, it weighs less than my IBM PC Server 704s. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 17:21:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: <20010821151505.A6679624@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <007001c12a8f$a28faf60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This was brought on by the "should-have-been-deleted-before-sending" expletive referring to copulation, normally used only by persons with an IQ of room temperature or less, however. Language like that baits a flame ... Who's to blame, well, I don't know. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Wright" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) > R. D. Davis said: > > > have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly, > > > indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY > > > RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take > > > > It behooves you not, in my opinion, to keep describing yourself in a > > loosing attempt to describe others. > > > > Wow... we've reached the "I know you are but what am I" level of retort. I > think most people outgrew that in the 2nd or 3rd grade. > > > [Wow, the poor chap just can't tolerate some differing opinions.] > > I don't see it that way. RD, as a relatively new list member, I can't help > but agree with Sellam, though my feelings may not be quite as...er...strong as > his. If you can justify how semi-incoherent rantings about the president > BELONG on this list and are ON-TOPIC -- and do so in such a way that you > convince even 5 people here -- then all the more power to you. If you can't > do so, then you're behaving, well, like an ass, and I think it would be > appreciated it you took rants to a more appropriate forum. > > And just for the record...I agree with your opinions about the president, so > don't go accusing me of not being able to "tolerate some differing opinions." > I just have the maturity to realize that this isn't the place for it, and I > frankly don't want to hear about it when I look at this mailbox in order to > read about classic computers. > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > From manney at hmcltd.net Tue Aug 21 20:55:58 2001 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C References: Message-ID: <00bd01c12aad$a9194940$36e3cfd8@pii500> Dunno if it's generally known, but PPC member Emmett Gray wrote a Windows HP-16 (won't run programs, though.) AFAIK, it's an otherwise faithful reproduction, and it's free. email me (manney@hmcltd.net) if you want a copy. ...still running my HP-41. Manney ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 11:57 AM Subject: Re: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C > > > > On 18 Aug, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > [HP49G] > > > The main complaints I had were > > [...] > > > I don't like the rubber keyboard, > > That was the bigest disapointment for me, when I saw the HP49G the > > Yes, it's horrible.... > > When (not if) mine fails, I will probably solder some real keyswitches to > the PCB. It'll look a right mess, but it'll be useable... > > > first time. Everyone knows that this rubber keyboards (at least the ones > > on TV set remote controll units) are not durable. That low quality > > design on a HP calculator? What comes next? Does HP drop RPN? (Like > > Oh, probably. Apparently some people actually prefer the other form of > notation... After all, HP are now selling many models which don't have an > RPN mode... > > I guess that some hacker is going to have to design and build his own RPN > calculators, then... > > > Similar for me. I don't go out hunting on EPay. I don't need that stuff. > > But I keep my eyes open and put my hands on everything that comes around > > and is afordable. > > So do I. If that makes me a calculator collector, well so be it ;-) > > -tony > > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Aug 21 18:07:54 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <006801c12a8f$1a141c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010821221141.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010822000754.00a15fd8@192.168.1.2> At 04:17 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >The 200# person is capable of seeing to it he doesn't get hurt, though, while >someone else has to be paid to prevent damage to the computer. True; but the person doesn't come in a box; is required to be served a meal; needs to be kept warm, aired and pressurised; may get drunk and cause trouble on board; and if he *does* hurt himself will probably sue the airline for large amounts of money. A computer, OTOH, just sits there - sort of rectangularly... > >What you might be able to work with the eBay seller is just to ship the >mainboard. How's that sound? Then he can sell the rest again. > Do you know the seller? Unfortunately, my German is completely non-existant. Even so, I'm not 100% sure whether the monitor will work, and I'm not risking my only working 8032 mainboard on it... There's one en-route to to me from the States which I will risk, but that won't get here before the end of the -SK auction. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 17:16:26 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: DECstation 3100 up for grabs in Los Angeles area (fwd) Message-ID: Please reply to original sender. Reply-to: pavlin ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:03:40 -0700 From: pavlin Cc: pavlin@aludra.usc.edu Subject: Looking to donate DECstation 3100 Hello, I have a working DECstation 3100. It has a color monitor (17" visual area I think), hard disk, keyboard, mouse, some cables and manuals (I can send you more detailed information if you need it). FYI, I live in Downtown Los Angeles, CA. However, I am not willing to ship the computer. Please let me know if you are interested in it, and if you have someone to pick-it-up from my place. Thanks, Pavlin Radoslavov pavlin@usc.edu -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 21 18:15:40 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20010821175809.F21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Recently I successfully negotiated with my wife to get a dedicated room for operating my collection. Given that my current house is small (750 ft^2, but it's free and works well for college), I am glad to get whatever I can. I have room for 4 19" racks with rear crawlspace, a LA120, a VT52, a PC, a guitar amp, and bookshelves. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 17:22:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 21, 1 10:18:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1971 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010821/4db51319/attachment.ksh From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 21 18:26:07 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <13668905886.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20010821181947.Q21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an > unmoderated list. Normally people are on the unmoderated list of > subscribers. When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they > get moved to the moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only > then) their posts have to be OKed to make it to the list. That sounds good to me, as long as there is some way for moderated posters to become unmoderated again if they are good citizens for a sufficient amount of time. Also, it might be good for Jay to post an updated FAQ monthly to educate newcomers about such policies and to remind us all of what exactly is and/or is not off-topic. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 21 18:44:29 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <017101c12a9b$39c517c0$3a731fd1@default> In my 2nd bedroom I have up and running a clone 233 for my main use everyday (I build it), iMac, PowerMac 6100/60,NeXT Turbo Color Slab,Power Computing Mac clone with 16" Apple monitor,Apple Network Server 500/132,Mac TAM,Lisa II,TRS-80 Pocket Computer,Vtech Power Zone 2000,Osborne I,Mac 180 laptop,Compaq 386 laptop,NEC 486 laptop,Newton 130 MessagePad,iPAQ,Deskjet 890C,Color StyleWriter 2400,TI99/4A with dual floppies,and a SPARCstation2. In the main mainroom I have up and going Apple IIc,PowerPC 5400/180,PowerPC 5260/120,IBM APTIVA tower P166,Fujitsu PenCentra 130, and a Laserjet 5L. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rice" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:16 PM Subject: Room for Collections > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large > room to set mine up. I currently have up and running: > > NeXT TC slab, 17" Trinitron, laser printer, SCSI box, flatbed scanner > > Sgi Indy, 20" Trinitron, SCSI box, Lexmark Optra with PS support > > Sun Sparc 5, 20" Trintron > > Mac Performa 631CD,DOS board, now just a 15" since the 20" Radius died, > StyleWriter 2500, LaserWriter II-NTX, ImageWriter II with LocalTalk > board > > NeXT Cube with Dimension, 17" mono, ext CD rom, laserprinter, soon 21" > NeXT Hitachi on the Dimension > > WinTel machine, 21" Mitsubishi, 19" CTX on Dual Head, Epson AL1000, > Epson Stylus 1500, Kurta digitizer, flatbed scanner > > Commodore 128D, 14" RGB, MPS-803, 2 1571's running CP/M > > Intel box booting BeOS, 17" monitor > > Other printers and stuff: Calcomp 1043GT plotter("E" size), Zericon > PC3610 plotter ("D" size), HP LJ4si, HP OfficeJet R60, Canon BJC-4550, > Canon BJ-230, Tandy DMP-2100, Epson LQ570 (2 of them), Epson AL-1500's > (2 of them) > > > This doesn't even count the servers in the closet. I just took down an > Amiga 3000 that I'm selling. I also have been selling all of the Apple > II's ,Tandys and other machines that I collected. Besides, I don't want > to keep a lot of boxes in storage, they need to be used and ran. > > I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect > mainframes. > > James > > http://home.texoma.net/~jrice > From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 18:33:35 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections References: <200108212019.f7LKJUR18269@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3B82EFCF.495C7DEE@texoma.net> I should go the window unit route. I don't thnik Ronda would give m any flak and I've got plenty of power. One windows is right above the breaker panel in the garage, same outside wall. It would be a cinch to fish another circuit up there if it became necessary. Eric Dittman wrote: > > After a year of "discussing" the issue I was allowed to add a window > unit to my computer room. Before I would have to set the upstairs > air conditioner to 68 to keep the computer room comfortable, but the > rest of the upstairs would get too cold for my wife (separate units > for upstairs and downstairs). Since getting the window unit we can > set the main upstairs air conditioner to whatever makes her happy. > After a couple of months with the window unit she made a remark that > she wished she'd let me get the unit when we first moved in to the > house. > From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 21 18:37:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010821182839.W21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > I wonder if it's possible to run MINIX on the TI-92? Hmm... the > possibilities. I was into the hacked TI calculator thing when I was in high school. It was where I learned Z80 assembly. About the time I moved on, someone had created a new 'OS' for the TI-85 that provided a simple shared library system in an attempt to fit more games onto the calc at once. What was cool about it was the fact that TI didn't disapprove of the things people were doing to their calculators. In fact, later models (including the TI-86 and TI-92, IIRC) have direct support for assembly language programs. You might want to check out ticalc.org if it's still up. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 21 18:47:57 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <000d01c12a89$44db6680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 21, 2001 02:35:59 PM Message-ID: <200108212347.TAA22104@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Even today's compilers demand several hundred Kbytes for a simple "hello-world" > program on one of today's machines, while it took well fewer than 256 bytes of > executable code to print a short text string on a Z-80 or 6502. It depends on how well you know the compiler. On my system here (Linux 2.0 with GCC 2.7.2.3: #include #include int main(void) { printf("Hello world\n"); return(EXIT_SUCCESS); } I compiled using ``gcc -O4 -fomit-frame-pointer -o hello hello.c ; strip hello'' and I got an executable of 2,684 bytes in size. Not content with that, I then wrote: #include #include int main(void) { write(STDOUT_FILENO,"Hello world\n",12); _exit(EXIT_SUCCESS); } Which avoids the Standard C Library and calls the Unix kernel directly. I then did: gcc -O4 -fomit-frame-pointer -c -o h2.o h2.c ld -o h2 -Bstatic -e main h2.o /usr/lib/libc.a strip h2 Which got me an executable of 768 bytes. Many years ago I hand crafted a 168 byte ``Hello World'' program on the SGI. And by hand crafted, that means I built the executable (including headers) byte by byte. That was (and perhaps still is) the smallest binary you could have had on an SGI. It was several years later when I came across an incantation that would turn the C version (the second one above) into a ~350 byte executable. I don't recall the incantation but it was impressive. -spc (The smallest I've been able to get is 372, and that's by writing directly in assembler and discarding unused segments ... ) From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 21 19:04:29 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) Message-ID: <017701c12a9e$042c5c60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I hit a sort on Jay West's name and only came up with his single, important post. I take this to mean that all other related messages are more rants or nearly so. There are 90 new messages in less than a day. This will likely make me hit the (A cursory look at Richards posts lately show OnTopicism--thanks) hit the delete key fast and loose. Why a thread like "GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF" didn't halt immediately is a mystery. If noone said it already, here's me: Moderation takes time. If there is no-one to do it this MAY lead to list shutdown --Bad! Self moderation saves time --everyone else's. Thanks to those that do it. John A. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Aug 21 19:14:05 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: MuMath/MuSimp (was: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <200108212123.f7LLNKC18480@narnia.int.dittman.net>; from dittman@dittman.net on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 04:23:20PM -0500 References: <20010821133949.A18717@eskimo.eskimo.com> <200108212123.f7LLNKC18480@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20010821171405.A28332@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 04:23:20PM -0500, Eric Dittman wrote: > Ha!, so the Subject: change wasn't really needed. Funny how that works. > I never used MuStar. All I know about it is that it's like Wordstar (and may be tailored for developing MuMath programs). > I first used MuMath/MuSimp on the TRS-80 Model I, and later for > CP/M. Wow, I didn't realize it was ported to the Model I. I assume it was the _expanded_ Model I. :) My Apple package comes with a Microsoft catalog in the back. It's fun to read about a time when Olympic Decathlon was state-of-the-art and MS software wasn't so flamboyantly flaky. (I'm sure it was still flaky, but in a more subtle, less grandiose way.) I wonder what would happen if I sent in the registration card? -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 18:56:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <20010821182839.W21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 21, 1 06:37:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/f566a404/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 18:40:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010821180113.00a5cb80@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Aug 21, 1 06:17:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/6d349dc0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 18:46:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic C In-Reply-To: <00bd01c12aad$a9194940$36e3cfd8@pii500> from "PG Manney" at Aug 21, 1 06:55:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/e9f13bc2/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 19:20:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B82EFCF.495C7DEE@texoma.net> Message-ID: People keep writing that they have, "plenty of power." Define plenty. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > I should go the window unit route. I don't thnik Ronda would give m any > flak and I've got plenty of power. One windows is right above the > breaker panel in the garage, same outside wall. It would be a cinch to > fish another circuit up there if it became necessary. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 21 18:39:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: Adrian Vickers "Re: CBM 8032 SK" (Aug 21, 22:18) References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <10108220039.ZM16835@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 21, 22:18, Adrian Vickers wrote: > At 01:06 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: > >If the CPU's broken, surely you can get that ... > > I expect Farnell carry it (that's where I got the Z80 prices from), but a > quick search on "6502" revealed nothing; but I only did it quickly, so may > have made a mistake. I'm fairly sure 6502s are still available from one of the UK suppliers. > >The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and > somebody, > >somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... > Hmm, possibly. Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532 EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 21 18:35:58 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)" (Aug 21, 10:53) References: Message-ID: <10108220035.ZM16831@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 21, 10:53, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an > > unmoderated list. Normally people are on the unmoderated list of > > subscribers. When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they > > get moved to the moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only > > then) their posts have to be OKed to make it to the list. > > What a great idea. I also think it's a good idea. I get pretty fed up with long off-topic threads especially those of a political nature, though I don't mind the occasional off-topic post. Deleting a few OT posts is fine, wading thorugh dozens isn't something I enjoy. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 21 19:28:00 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: James Rice "Room for Collections" (Aug 21, 12:16) References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <10108220128.ZM16852@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 21, 12:16, James Rice wrote: > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? Mine isn't all up and running, but in the office I have: SGI Indy R5000 (always on, it does mail, NFS, backups, etc) Acorn Archimedes A440 (always on) Sparcstation 1+ (rarely on!) ancient PC (occasionally on, for proprietary data CDs and Word docs) BBC B with floppies, hard drive, various extras Exidy Sorcerer (for Galaxians etc) SGI Indigo and an ISDN router, managed hub, HP1600CM colour inkjet which are also always on, and a laser printer which is turned on when needed. Next door, my wife has an SGI Indigo Elan which she uses for mail, surfing, etc. There are few oddments on shelves, such as a Microwriter AgendA, a Z88, a Psion Organiser, a 2901 microcode tutor, and some others. There are two more Indys in the workshop, one of which is usually on, and another BBC and another PC (used for Linux and 22Disk). There's also another managed hub and another router (Ethernet and FDDI), a GatorBox, a couple of terminal servers, ... Most of the working part of the collection is in the workshop: PDP-11/23 in office rack with 2 x RL02, running 7th Edition Unix or RT11 microPDP-11/83 running BSD 2.11 microVAX-II running VMS somthing-or-other (at least it was, last time I looked) 6' DEC rack containing an 11/34, two 11/73's, front-loading 1/2" magtape unit, large Fujitsu winchester, RX02, and a couple of other 8" floppies. These run RSX-11 and RT-11. There's a pair of shelf bays which have the following set up and runnable: Apple Mac IIvx Sage II Dragon 32 2 more Indigos, one XZ, one basic LG graphics (Song and Dance Machine, if you know what that is) Atari Mega ST VT/78 microfiche reader and 'fiche boxes Acorn R260 Amiga 500 Commodore PET 2001-8K (except it's only 7K since one chip went) Commodore 8050 dual drive for the PET KIM-1 home-grown Z8-based SBC Amstrad PCW 8512 Sinclair Spectrum Sinclair QL Acorn Atom Nascom (not strictly runnable, it needs some work) Apple ][ Europlus Apple //e Apple Mac Plus and hard drive NeXTstation Vaxstation 3100 Around the workshop, there are a few terminals, an Epson FX100, a laptop, and various oddments, along with my test gear, spares, etc. The rest of the collection languishes in the attic, including more Sinclair stuff, Acorn Electron, C128, Vic-20, Sharp MZ80K, Acorn Archimedes A310, another Acorn R260, ... I'm not sure about "understanding", but Liz is reasonably tolerant, providing the collection remains in designated areas. Which it does, most of the time (there's another 11/23 reputedly with TSX-11 installed, and a VT100, and a large Eurocard cage in the garage at the moment). She'd rather have a modern PC than an Indigo on her desk, but there's no way I'm putting a full-time Windows machine on my network :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 19:26:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <20010821182839.W21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > You might want to check out ticalc.org if it's still up. I have indeed seen this excellent page, and also I've run some of the OSes given on this page. I was just wondering if it were possible to run some form of UNIX-like OS on the 92 (or 92+). I'm a UNIX-head. So sue me. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 19:30:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B82FBAF.7F43029D@texoma.net> Message-ID: Alrighty then. How I define "plenty" in this context is my warehouse space. It has an industrial service, at 416V three-phase. The industrial complex has it's own dedicated tap to a substation transformer. I am not sure how big my service is, but it's *B*I*G*. Of course, I pay an arm and a leg. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > I have two receptacles (duplex) on each of the three walls that have > computers. Each is served by it's own dedicated 20a 120vac circuit. So > I could draw 120 amps at 127v (our transformer is tapped a little high) > in that room. If I needed 240v, I could drop a circuit. My room is > directly over the garage where the breaker panel is located. I was an > electrican for 23 years in my previous life. > > James From west at tseinc.com Wed Aug 22 07:40:50 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for References: Message-ID: <00b101c12b07$ae898ca0$0101a8c0@jay> Tony wrote... ----- Original Message ----- > HP seem to have a bit of a love/hate relationship with such hacking. > Obviously they can't support it officially, but some information was > released to user groups under the NOMAS (NOt MAnufacturer Supported) > scheme. And there are a lot of clues to interesting stuff left in > manuals, on PCBs, etc if you know where to look... Is this particular to their (HP's) calculator side? I'm curious, because on the 2100 & 21MX stuff at least, they give you every last detail you could possibly want. Full schematics, extremely lowlevel detailed chapters on theory of operation (on most things, down to the pin/gate level). They even have cross reference charts that showed thier own custom chip numbers and what they were schematically. Maybe it's the timeframe - because later HP manuals on some 1000F systems are noticeably short on details. For the earlier stuff, HP very very obviously encouraged end user modifications. Just curious... Jay West From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 21 19:51:15 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <20010821175809.F21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Aug 21, 2001 06:15:40 pm" Message-ID: <200108220051.RAA12681@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Of course you should be able to go even smaller on a linux system by going to assembly and using the interrupt version of syscall(). .text .globl _start _start: xor %eax,%eax movb $4,%al xor %ebx,%ebx movb $1,%bl movl $message,%ecx xor %edx,%edx movb $14,%dl int $0x80 xor %eax,%eax movb $1,%al xor %ebx,%ebx movb $0,%bl int $0x80 message: .string "Hello, world!\n" as -o hello.o hello.s ld -Bstatic -o hello hello.o strip hello It's still annoying that 36 bytes of code and data end up in a 404 byte file. I suppose that's the price of a code loader that supports dynamic linking. Even if no files are linked, you need to tell it that no files are linked. It's not like it really matters. The 6502 version on the Apple would still have taken a full disk block. Eric From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 20:04:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <017101c12a9b$39c517c0$3a731fd1@default> References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> <017101c12a9b$39c517c0$3a731fd1@default> Message-ID: >In my 2nd bedroom I have up and running a clone 233 for my main use >everyday (I build it), iMac, PowerMac 6100/60,NeXT Turbo Color >Slab,Power Computing Mac clone with 16" Apple monitor,Apple Network >Server 500/132,Mac TAM,Lisa II,TRS-80 Pocket Computer,Vtech Power Zone >2000,Osborne I,Mac 180 laptop,Compaq 386 laptop,NEC 486 laptop,Newton >130 MessagePad,iPAQ,Deskjet 890C,Color StyleWriter 2400,TI99/4A with >dual floppies,and a SPARCstation2. In the main mainroom I have up and >going Apple IIc,PowerPC 5400/180,PowerPC 5260/120,IBM APTIVA tower >P166,Fujitsu PenCentra 130, and a Laserjet 5L. I live in a small 900 sq/ft apartment with two bedrooms, one of which is lined with shelves for my various systems. Four of them (G3/450, TRS-80 Model 2000, NeXTstation Color, and SOL-20) are set up so that they may be used at any time. My MicroVAX II sits beside the desk and only needs connection of a terminal to be used. It also acts as a pedestal for my G3/450. At any given time, depending on what I'm working on at that moment, there is generally a system set up on my dining room table. Most of my others can be pulled out and set up without too much trouble and nearly all of my systems are housed within the single room. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 20:13:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B82D510.E5B579C0@texoma.net> References: <3B82D510.E5B579C0@texoma.net> Message-ID: >I love the ""Frog Design" stand on the N4000 monitors. It certainly sets it apart from other monitors, and would do so even if it weren't black. Couple that to the black Cube and it makes for quite a striking site. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Aug 21 20:17:18 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mine is going to look great next to the reciently purchased G4 mac cube... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I love the ""Frog Design" stand on the N4000 monitors. > > It certainly sets it apart from other monitors, and would do > so even if it weren't black. Couple that to the black Cube and it > makes for quite a striking site. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 21 20:45:15 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220051.RAA12681@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Aug 21, 2001 05:51:15 pm" Message-ID: <200108220145.SAA14192@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > It's still annoying that 36 bytes of code and data end up in a 404 byte > file. I suppose that's the price of a code loader that supports dynamic > linking. Even if no files are linked, you need to tell it that no files > are linked. SPARC/Solaris does a bit better in file size by fitting 46 bytes of code into a 316 byte file, using the same trick in replacing syscall with its trap representation. .section ".text" .global start start: mov 4,%o0 sethi %hi(message),%o2 mov 1,%o1 or %o2,%lo(message),%o2 mov 14,%o3 ta 8 mov 1,%o0 ta 8 message: .asciz "Hello World!\n" Eric From jrice at texoma.net Tue Aug 21 20:50:11 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... References: Message-ID: <3B830FD3.B20020B5@texoma.net> I want a G4 cube, just can't justify the expense right now....maybe in a few months, probably be hard to find then. "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > > Mine is going to look great next to the reciently purchased G4 mac cube... > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > >I love the ""Frog Design" stand on the N4000 monitors. > > > > It certainly sets it apart from other monitors, and would do > > so even if it weren't black. Couple that to the black Cube and it > > makes for quite a striking site. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 21:27:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B830FD3.B20020B5@texoma.net> from "James Rice" at Aug 21, 2001 08:50:11 PM Message-ID: <200108220227.f7M2RVX16767@shell1.aracnet.com> > "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > > > > Mine is going to look great next to the reciently purchased G4 mac cube... > > > > George Rachor > I want a G4 cube, just can't justify the expense right now....maybe in a > few months, probably be hard to find then. They're a sweet system, but for those of us that need a more expandable system the towers are still the only way to go. OTOH, the rumoured next generation iMac is supposed to have a LCD display. Now that sounds interesting! Hopefully they make it like the 20th (or was it 25th) Anniversary Mac. Zane From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 21 21:30:31 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B830FD3.B20020B5@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > I want a G4 cube, just can't justify the expense right now....maybe in a > few months, probably be hard to find then. > > "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > > > > Mine is going to look great next to the reciently purchased G4 mac cube... > > > > George Rachor Can you run Openstep on a G4 cube? That would be pretty cool. Peace... Sridhar From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 21:34:23 2001 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 Message-ID: <20010822023423.55052.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Hey, I've recently come across a Rockwell AIM 65/40, which is not the original AIM 65. This is a newer version that came out a few years later, it seems. Here are some pictures: http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65-40.html Anyway, I can't find any information what-so-ever on the web, and it comes without a user manual. If anyone has any good information that I can add to my website, please let me know! Thanks! Steve. tosteve@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 20:41:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <3B830FD3.B20020B5@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > I want a G4 cube, just can't justify the expense right now....maybe in > a few months, probably be hard to find then. I'm figuring I'll eventually run into one at a thrift store. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 22:00:00 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Aug 21, 2001 10:30:31 PM Message-ID: <200108220300.f7M300I17641@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote: > > > I want a G4 cube, just can't justify the expense right now....maybe in a > > few months, probably be hard to find then. > > > > "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > > > > > > Mine is going to look great next to the reciently purchased G4 mac cube... > > > > > > George Rachor > > Can you run Openstep on a G4 cube? That would be pretty cool. > > Peace... Sridhar Yes, as a matter of fact you can, though I'm not sure what version it requires, probably "V6.0". Just remember it's now called "MacOS X V1.0" instead of OPENSTEP. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 21 22:01:03 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220051.RAA12681@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: > Of course you should be able to go even smaller on a linux system by going to > assembly and using the interrupt version of syscall(). > . . . > It's still annoying that 36 bytes of code and data end up in a 404 byte > file. I suppose that's the price of a code loader that supports dynamic > linking. Even if no files are linked, you need to tell it that no files > are linked. 23 bytes in MS-DOS as a .COM file. ORG 100h MOV AH, 9 MOV DX, offset msg0 INT 21h INT 20h msg0 DB "Hello, World!$" > It's not like it really matters. The 6502 version on the Apple would still > have taken a full disk block. True. It doesn't accomplish much to squeeze more once you're below the disk space allocation granularity. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From west at tseinc.com Wed Aug 22 10:11:33 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: "hello world program" Message-ID: <000a01c12b1c$bb4c4120$0101a8c0@jay> The "hello world" discussion got me thinking... how short could it be in Assembler... Here's an example in Pick assembler (aka reality/microdata, general automation zebra, adds mentor, Ultimate, etc.).... FRAME 504 SRA R14,MSG LOOP WRITE R14 INC R14 BCU R14,X'FF',LOOP HALT MSG EQU * TEXT C'HELLO WORLD',X'FF' It's been YEARS since I worked with this instruction set, but I believe that the above would turn into 11 words or 22 bytes total. In practice, HALT would be inconsiderate to other users, I seem to recall the gracefull termination back to the TCL-I processor was "ENT MD999" but that's not a primitive and takes more instructions ;) If memory serves, none of the above are macros, they are all actual instructions. Of course, if you're allowed to use system routines, then it can be done in significantly less instructions (in userland at least) with FRAME 504 BSL PRINT MSG EQU * TEXT C'HELLO WORLD',X'FF' HALT Of course, this example isn't indicative of the number of instructions executed because it calls system services to do it's job (like dos's INT 21H I believe it is). Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/0dcf4018/attachment.html From west at tseinc.com Wed Aug 22 10:13:47 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. References: Message-ID: <001801c12b1d$0ba39380$0101a8c0@jay> Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional instructions there). Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > 23 bytes in MS-DOS as a .COM file. > > ORG 100h > MOV AH, 9 > MOV DX, offset msg0 > INT 21h > INT 20h > msg0 DB "Hello, World!$" From at258 at osfn.org Tue Aug 21 22:23:57 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <20010821170649.D7204@borg.org> Message-ID: "The main frame of a computer system is the cabinet that houses the the central processor and main memory." - C. L. Meek, 1976 On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Kent Borg wrote: > If I read the quoting correctly (sound familiar?), Matthew Sell > asked: > >As a discussion - what technically makes the difference between a > >mainframe and a mini? Are there physical comparisons to be made or > >performance? > > It is an ecosystem thing. It's an IBM thing. > > A "mainframe" is a computer that, when new, was classed with the > biggest, nastiest, business IBMs available. > > It doesn't matter if it weighs a lot or is faster than the mainframes > of an earlier generation, it depends upon its own generation. Also, > the fastest supercomputers of an era are kinda beyond mainframe, and > they lose their "super" qualification as new computers exceed them and > become "former supercomputers". Mainframes tend to stay > mainframes--obsolete maybe, but still mainframes. And frequently are > still in use long after they become obsolete. > > Mainframes tend to put a lot of effort into highspeed IO, are > expensive, and can do lots of transactions well. (Because expensive > means you want to keep them busy.) > > > -kb > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 22:43:02 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: Re: new find... (Zane H. Healy) References: <3B830FD3.B20020B5@texoma.net> <200108220227.f7M2RVX16767@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <15235.10822.314419.450448@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 21, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I want a G4 cube, just can't justify the expense right now....maybe in a > > few months, probably be hard to find then. > > They're a sweet system, but for those of us that need a more expandable > system the towers are still the only way to go. OTOH, the rumoured next > generation iMac is supposed to have a LCD display. Now that sounds > interesting! Hopefully they make it like the 20th (or was it 25th) > Anniversary Mac. 20th. And hopefully it'll be more of a NEW design. The 20th anniversary Mac is mostly Powerbook 5300 hardware. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 21 22:47:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <001801c12b1d$0ba39380$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote: > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > instructions there). So far, nobody has set the rules for the game. And if it is NOT to use OS API stuff, should we also outlaw using the OS to start and end the program or even to load it? How about routines in ROM? (PC BIOS INT 10h function 0Eh will display a character) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Aug 21 22:57:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: "hello world program" In-Reply-To: <000a01c12b1c$bb4c4120$0101a8c0@jay> from Jay West at "Aug 22, 1 10:11:33 am" Message-ID: <200108220357.UAA10432@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The "hello world" discussion got me thinking... how short could it be in > Assembler... Here's an example in Pick assembler Kewl! Any description of Pick opcodes anywhere? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams ----- From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 21 22:53:02 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <001801c12b1d$0ba39380$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 22, 2001 10:13:47 AM Message-ID: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > instructions there). Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something printed, which means using built in system support. Now, if you are doing this on an IBM PC the quickest way (assuming a CGA card at minimum 8-) is possibly: org 0100h push cs pop ds mov ax,0b800h mov es,ax mov si,offset message xor di,di mov cx,12 rep movsw ret message db 'H',7,'e',7,'l',7,'l',7,'o',7,' ',7 db 'w',7,'o',7,'r',7,'l',7,'d',7,'!',7 end -spc (42 bytes, more if you want to be pedantic and check for MDA ... ) From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Aug 21 22:59:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: <200108220227.f7M2RVX16767@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 21, 1 07:27:31 pm" Message-ID: <200108220359.UAA12020@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > They're a sweet system, but for those of us that need a more expandable > system the towers are still the only way to go. OTOH, the rumoured next > generation iMac is supposed to have a LCD display. Now that sounds > interesting! Hopefully they make it like the 20th (or was it 25th) > Anniversary Mac. I hope you mean like the 20th Anniversary's case, not the system board (which sucked serious eggs). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Aug 21 23:05:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <10108220128.ZM16852@unknown.zmail.host> from Pete Turnbull at "Aug 22, 1 00:28:00 am" Message-ID: <200108220405.VAA11846@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > > functioning? Does your SO understand? > > Mine isn't all up and running, but in the office I have: Sheesh. Always set up around here: Power Mac 7300 + G3 "jonathan" Macintosh Plus "Mr. T" Commodore 128DCR "bil" 486 laptop "gordon" IIci NetBSD server "thule" IIci MacOS workstation "andrew" Commodore PET 2001-16B "chuck" Solbourne S4100/36 "reykjavik" ... plus the Dreamcast "Sadie" and the Intellivision "Sylvia". Fortunately stockholm, the ANS, is still at Point Loma Nazarene. The Tomy Tutor is usually ready to go, but most of the others are normally boxed-up since I don't have the space yet. :-/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If you don't have a nasty obituary you probably didn't matter. -- F. Dyson - From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 23:14:41 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:37 2005 Subject: new find... In-Reply-To: from "Cameron Kaiser" at Aug 21, 2001 08:59:08 PM Message-ID: <200108220414.f7M4Efw18546@shell1.aracnet.com> > > They're a sweet system, but for those of us that need a more expandable > > system the towers are still the only way to go. OTOH, the rumoured next > > generation iMac is supposed to have a LCD display. Now that sounds > > interesting! Hopefully they make it like the 20th (or was it 25th) > > Anniversary Mac. > > I hope you mean like the 20th Anniversary's case, not the system board > (which sucked serious eggs). Obviously like the case, the system board would be a seriuos step backwards :^) Zane From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 23:18:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <3.0.6.32.20010821184932.00a220f8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010821221141.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822000754.00a15fd8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <001701c12ac1$79e52680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I certainly don't know the seller, but, if you'll send me details, I'll happily email the guy on your behalf and ask him that very question to the extent that my somewhat inadequate technical German will allow. Perhaps Emanuel Stiebler could be persuaded to do that, as he probably knows what to call the main board, which I'd have to ask someone else. When I left Germany for the last time, in '69, PCB's were not high on my list of discussion topics. Things have changed, of course, but my vocabulary in German has not. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:07 PM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 04:17 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >The 200# person is capable of seeing to it he doesn't get hurt, though, while > >someone else has to be paid to prevent damage to the computer. > > True; but the person doesn't come in a box; is required to be served a > meal; needs to be kept warm, aired and pressurised; may get drunk and cause > trouble on board; and if he *does* hurt himself will probably sue the > airline for large amounts of money. A computer, OTOH, just sits there - > sort of rectangularly... > > > > >What you might be able to work with the eBay seller is just to ship the > >mainboard. How's that sound? Then he can sell the rest again. > > > > Do you know the seller? Unfortunately, my German is completely > non-existant. Even so, I'm not 100% sure whether the monitor will work, and > I'm not risking my only working 8032 mainboard on it... There's one > en-route to to me from the States which I will risk, but that won't get > here before the end of the -SK auction. > > > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Aug 21 23:22:24 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Aug 21, 1 11:53:02 pm" Message-ID: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > instructions there). > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > printed, which means using built in system support. Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise left for the reader). :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Silly is a state of mind, stupid is a way of life. -- Dave Butler ---------- From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 21 23:22:24 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... In-Reply-To: <005201c12a8e$19cd6ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > see below, plz. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Merchberger" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:38 PM > Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... > > > > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > > > > > 3 questions: > > > > Does anyone have some good schematics or facts/figures (no matter how > > basic) as to a good way to interface triacs to a classic computer? (I'm > > mainly worried about 2 things: circuit isolation & heat dissipation of the > > triac) ... > > > Take a look at the Motorola Optoelectronics Databook. That has optoisolated > triac drivers, SCR drivers, etc. in addition to the usual optoisolators. Also, > take a look at Burr-Brown's isolation hardware. They've got a couple of pretty > good devices I once used to provide isolation between the stage (@2KV reference > with respect to earth) and the interface logic (@earth-ground reference) on a > scanning electron microscope for auto-registrathion/alignment of wafers in an IC > fab. They're capable of over 2 KV of isolation and 80MHz of bandwidth. > > > > Does anyone have some good schematics / advice on how to interface a 12 or > > 16-bit A/D chip to an 8-bit system? > > > there are converters in both directions that operate serially, not to mention a > few that work byte+nybble. Check with www.maxim-ic.com and www.analog.com > > > > And lastly: Does anyone have any references to where I could purchase > > 40-pin board edge connectors (instead of the usual 44-pin) other than > > hacking said connectors with a dremel tool? > > > more info is needed here. What pin pitch are you after? If you want the most > common 44-pin connector's pitch (0.157") there may be trouble, but Gateway > Electronics in Denver, (they don't even have a web site!) (303) 458-5444 had a > few dual 20's on 0.100" pitch when I last looked. **** www.gatewayelex.com **** > > Web references, book references, personal experience, *any* info is welcome! > There are LOTS of sites that handle "controlling the world" interface issues, > and may show up on GOOGLE searches using simply the most obvious search terms. > Try "stepping motor" or Fourier Series, just for grins ... > > > > Thanks loads (and trying to keep the S/N ratio higher...) > > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 21 23:28:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 References: <20010822023423.55052.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01c12ac2$d4437fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> 'seems to me that those are what I've got lying in the basement, though I've not looked at them in a year or so. The schematic (right here) doesn't say anything about "AIM 65-40" though ... just AIM 65. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 8:34 PM Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 > Hey, > > I've recently come across a Rockwell AIM 65/40, which > is not the original AIM 65. This is a newer version > that came out a few years later, it seems. > > Here are some pictures: > http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65-40.html > > Anyway, I can't find any information what-so-ever on > the web, and it comes without a user manual. > > If anyone has any good information that I can add to > my website, please let me know! > > Thanks! > Steve. > > tosteve@yahoo.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 22:28:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 In-Reply-To: <20010822023423.55052.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, steve wrote: > http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65-40.html What a terrific website! The pictures are extremely well done. > Anyway, I can't find any information what-so-ever on the web, and it > comes without a user manual. I've never seen this model, but I don't think it's any different than prior models. The only physical difference is the enclosure around the display. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 21 22:42:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > instructions there). > > So far, nobody has set the rules for the game. > And if it is NOT to use OS API stuff, should we also outlaw using the OS > to start and end the program or even to load it? > How about routines in ROM? (PC BIOS INT 10h function 0Eh will display a > character) Ok, here's my entry on the Apple ][ using no ROM routines: 0300: LDY #$00 0302: LDA $030C,Y 0305: BEQ $030B 0305: STA $0400,Y 0308: INY 0309: BNE $0302 030B: RTS ; or BRK 030C: C8 C5 CC CC CF A0 D7 CF D2 CC C4 00 ; "HELLO WORLD" Damn, 26 bytes. Can't be any smaller, so Jay's Prime example still beats it. Curse you, 6502!!! :) Well, actually it could be one byte smaller: 0300: LDY #$00 0302: LDA $030B,Y 0305: BPL $0316 0305: STA $0400,Y 0308: INY 0309: BNE $0302 030B: C8 C5 CC CC CF A0 D7 CF D2 CC C4 00 ; "HELLO WORLD" The BPL instruction will branch to location $0316 when it hits a value less than #$80 (128), which happens to contain #$00, which is the null terminator for the string which causes the loop to exit, but which also happens to be the BRK (BReaK) instruction in 6502, which will cause a hard interrupt and terminate the program. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 21 23:43:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010821180113.00a5cb80@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > I have just been given a Model One (which I haven't got into yet,) > and a Model 4, along with some manuals and drives. > One of the external drives is a BASF Model 6106, would this by > chance be an early hard drive? It is built like a full height floppy, but > there is no place to put one! Any information on it would be much appreciated. If it could be a BASF 6186, it would be a 15mb ST-506 MFM drive with 4 Hds, 440 Cyl, and 17 SPT. RWC and WPC are both at 220. Drive is 5.25" Full High. - don > The Model 4 is suffering from a bad keyboard, (dead except for > reset button,) and is working with one borrowed from another Model 4. Does > anyone have information on it? It is not covered in the 4 technical > reference manual. > I haven't been able to get the 4 to recognize drive "1". I have > five full height floppies on hand, and all will work OK as drive "0", but > not as drive "1". I have checked the cable and it has the required missing > contacts, "12, 14, 32" for "0" and "10, 14, 32" for "1", but still no action. > I can't find any jumpers on the Texas Peripherals drives, am I > missing something? > > Thanks > > Charlie Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 > foxvideo@wincom.net > Check out: > Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com > > From zaft at azstarnet.com Tue Aug 21 23:48:51 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220051.RAA12681@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <20010821175809.F21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010821214807.0262af60@pop.azstarnet.com> Somehow I suspect this code won't run on my PPC boards. Linux != x86. At 05:51 PM 8/21/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Of course you should be able to go even smaller on a linux system by going to >assembly and using the interrupt version of syscall(). > >.text >.globl _start >_start: > xor %eax,%eax > movb $4,%al > xor %ebx,%ebx > movb $1,%bl > movl $message,%ecx > xor %edx,%edx > movb $14,%dl > int $0x80 > xor %eax,%eax > movb $1,%al > xor %ebx,%ebx > movb $0,%bl > int $0x80 >message: > .string "Hello, world!\n" [snip] Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 00:03:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. References: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> Message-ID: <005101c12ac7$cc87e0c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> a long call or a jump takes 3 bytes, but we won't count that for now ... .chip 6502 prport .def $FF00 ; send a character to this port and it transmits the 7 ascii bits. Use the MSB as strobe if your port doesn't generate a strobe for you .loc $0210 s: .ascii HELLO WORLD [11] .byte $0D [1] .loc $0200 ldx #11 ; length of this string (decimal) [2 bytes] plp: lda s,x ; get the payload, byte by byte [1] or #128 ; set the strobe [1] sta prport ; and ship it [3 bytes] and #127 ; now clear the strobe [1] sta prport ; and write it again [3] dex ; [1] bne plp ; [2] ret ; or whatever [1] That's got to be about 27 bytes ... AND it uses no services or external storage of any sort. Now, you could save a byte by mapping I/O into zero page ... and 4 if you don't have to generate a strobe, i.e. your port does that for you in hardware, as many do. This is just a first guess ... it might be possible to make it shorter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Hello World! on modern processors. > It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > > > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > instructions there). > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > printed, which means using built in system support. > > Now, if you are doing this on an IBM PC the quickest way (assuming a CGA > card at minimum 8-) is possibly: > > org 0100h > push cs > pop ds > mov ax,0b800h > mov es,ax > mov si,offset message > xor di,di > mov cx,12 > rep movsw > ret > message db 'H',7,'e',7,'l',7,'l',7,'o',7,' ',7 > db 'w',7,'o',7,'r',7,'l',7,'d',7,'!',7 > end > > -spc (42 bytes, more if you want to be pedantic and check for MDA ... ) > > From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Aug 22 00:04:31 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: The subject at hand is Classic Computers Message-ID: <6a.1264e36d.28b4975f@aol.com> Hey Group -- I'm not entirely innocent when it comes to off topic posts, but I was flamed early and often and decided that the best course of action -- if I wanted to remain a list member -- was to keep 95% of my posts on-topic. 95% OFF-topic seems to be the ideal for some members of this list, which is to the detriment of the list in general. We're here to rag-chew old computers. More below: R.D. Davis wrote: > Hmmm... interesting how criticizing the Cheif Politicrat of the U.S. > triggered this. Surely a highy unlilely thing to happen, but I'll ask > anyway: did g. dubya bushbooger's SS troopers get to someone and > demand that we stop criticizing the pugnacious little prat? > Fortunately I don't have a soundcard in this system so I can't hear > "Hail to the Twit" being played... Dang, I thought algore was the one > who wanted censorship; apparently they're both controlled by the same > puppetmasters. Really, R.D., find yourself a newsgroup to sort this out in. You're sucking up (free!) bandwidth and taking up everyone's time with your OT posts. TANG. Sellam Ismail replied: > YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sellam, this may very well be true. I know I am frustrated with the way the list has been shanghied, but even asses have a right to post here AS LONG AS THEY STAY ON TOPIC! BTW I think your ideas -- 4 OT posts and kill the thread, etc. -- are very appropriate considering the gross number of OT posts during the last year. Just my 2 pesos worth -- Glen 0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 00:11:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... References: Message-ID: <006501c12ac8$de318e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... > > **** www.gatewayelex.com **** > Sadly, this web site is for the St.Louis store only, though it mentions the other stores. It reflects very little of what's at the Denver Gateway store, though some of the Denver stuff comes from St.Louis, which was the first store. There's quite a lot of electronics manufacturing in the Denver-Boulder-Longmont area, not to mention Ft.Collins and Colorado Springs, and the Denver store buys everywhere it can. I've tried to encourage the guys to set up a site at their store, but the St.Louis based mgmt is against it. One of the owners/founders passed on recently and that may signal some impending changes in operating style and pace, but I wouldn't bet on it. > > > > Web references, book references, personal experience, *any* info is welcome! > > There are LOTS of sites that handle "controlling the world" interface issues, > > and may show up on GOOGLE searches using simply the most obvious search terms. > > Try "stepping motor" or Fourier Series, just for grins ... > > > > > > Thanks loads (and trying to keep the S/N ratio higher...) > > > > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > > -- > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > > > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > > > > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > > > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Aug 22 00:20:49 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Amiga 500 and stuff to good home Message-ID: <17.1a5f26b1.28b49b31@aol.com> Hi Jim -- > I have an Amiga 500 with monitor, extra floppy drive, 500K memory card > and 4 boxes of software. Also have a Panasonic dot matrix printer - all > vintage 1985 - and all works. I have several of the kernel manuals too. >See the attached photos. Note the original boxes. Where? What photos?!? >I'm about to toss everything into the trash unless there is someone >interested in collecting it, or even using for spare parts. I'll pack >up and split the shipping cost (from Fairfax, VA) with anyone in the US > who wants it. > Please let me know if anyone's interested by September 8th. I'll take it, and put it to good use. Please DO NOT REPLY TO THE ABOVE ADDRESS. Reply to acme_ent@bellsouth.net Thanks -- Glen 0/0 From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Wed Aug 22 00:10:50 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Curricula ... Message-ID: <3B833EDA.BC9E1598@magnaspeed.net> This is quite an interesting discussion on computer science curricula. My 2 cents, for what it's worth. I started with BASIC on a PCjr. The coding style was attrocious, and I couldn't make it perform. Such is the tragedy of a strictly interpreted language with a run-time that owns the entire environment. Performance tips for interpreted BASIC actually had you shorten variable names, use literals instead of constant variables, strip comments, and put multiple statements on a line. These are all things we learned to abhor. Early on I figured out the need for speed and structure. I bought Zbasic. That gave me functions, procedures, and it was a compiler, not a wussy interpreter. It also gave me the ability to do inline machine code. Zbasic opened lots of new paths for me. Best of all, I still had to live within the confines of a 64KB code segment. On my bigger programs (a BBS system) I had to use overlays. By the time the BBS project was done, I knew the 8250 UART and RS232 signals, and the Hayes command sent in and out. I had also learned to program really tight. In high school we did Pascal. Pascal gave me pointers, in return for locking me up in a straight-jacket. Pointers were powerful and alluring though. This led to self-study on C. At State University of New York (Oswego) ten years ago, I learned the classics - assembler, Fortran, COBOL, Modula-2, and C. I didn't become proficient at assembler, Fortran or Cobol - I just needed to be aware that they existed, and to understand the school of thought from which they came. C was the language of choice, because I was interested in networking and operating systems. (Use the right tool for the job.) C++ just started coming out then .. in my last year I dove into that, and picked up a new programming paradigm. (I hate that word.) Professionally I had to learn PL/MP, which was IBM's internal language for programming in the OS on an AS/400. My first job was porting SNA comm code from one dialect of PL/MP to a newer one. Pain is good; it builds character. Then I had to learn to port PL/MP to C, and to do PowerPC assembly - I now owned some interrupt vectors. C and C++ were the languages of choice. We only used assembly when raw performance was necessary, or when we needed to perform voodoo that we could not code using the compiler. (We would often manipulate stack frames and other data structures outside the confines of the compiler.) Good programmers are too expensive and schedules are too tight to do most things in assembler. Only the lowest levels of the OS use assembler, and even then it is a mix of C and assembler. After eight years in the hole, I decided to move up into application space. Java is a much different environment. I've never been so productive when writing code - the runtime and library support are extensive. Java is deceptive though - lots of people can program in Java, but few can do it well. I constantly struggle to guess the performance characteristics of what I am writing; with a C++ program, I could change some listing options and look at the generated assembler. Now I'm kind of blind - I have to the design through very carefully as I write, because I can't see the generated assembly as easily. I don't know how a student with a four year degree can be called a professional programmer. It's only after 17 years of programming (with 10 years of professional experience) that I now consider myself armed and dangerous. I loved taking graduate classes as an older student - it was so easy to crush the competition because of the depth of experience and exposure that I had. ;-) You can get somebody to do Java and VB in four years with a fair level of competence. If you want a professional programmer, those are a different breed. Without the languages background, the OS classes and the compiler classes, it's all a black box. Understanding the black box is key to utilizing it. And I've so much to learn ... I've not forayed into LISP yet. Mike From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 22 00:16:01 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less > instructions in > > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? > (ie, your > > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > > instructions there). > > > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > > printed, which means using built in system support. > >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise >left for the reader). :-) I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: ORG 0000h JMP 0000h ORG 0CC00h DB 'Hello World!' That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles. The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program loader take care of it for you. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 22 00:38:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... In-Reply-To: <006501c12ac8$de318e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > see below, plz. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Maslin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:22 PM > Subject: Re: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... > > > > > > > **** www.gatewayelex.com **** > > > > Sadly, this web site is for the St.Louis store only, though it mentions the > other stores. It reflects very little of what's at the Denver Gateway store, > though some of the Denver stuff comes from St.Louis, which was the first store. > There's quite a lot of electronics manufacturing in the Denver-Boulder-Longmont > area, not to mention Ft.Collins and Colorado Springs, and the Denver store buys > everywhere it can. I've tried to encourage the guys to set up a site at their > store, but the St.Louis based mgmt is against it. Your point is well taken, Dick. I knew that it was a `corporate' website, but there is quite a bit of commonality between stock at the various stores. Still, when a store is able to `get to the well' they should be permitted to advertise their wares. - don > One of the owners/founders passed on recently and that may signal some impending > changes in operating style and pace, but I wouldn't bet on it. > > > > > > > Web references, book references, personal experience, *any* info is > welcome! > > > There are LOTS of sites that handle "controlling the world" interface > issues, > > > and may show up on GOOGLE searches using simply the most obvious search > terms. > > > Try "stepping motor" or Fourier Series, just for grins ... > > > > > > > > Thanks loads (and trying to keep the S/N ratio higher...) > > > > > > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > > > -- > > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > > > > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > > > > > > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > > > > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 22 01:23:55 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Room for Collections References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3B834FFB.B9EF70B2@internet1.net> Unfortunetly, I don't have a SO, so I don't have to deal with that part of it. I don't have people over, however, so that tells you that it is even too messy for me, right now. Only 3 of my machines are ready to go, at the flick of a switch. Thats my IBM Model 80, that is my main computer right now, which is in the living room. My Apple //e in my storage room (second bedroom, so it siutable for electronic equipment). Lastly my old main computer, that is OS-less on the HD becasue I am going to be installing Linux shortly.... used to be W98. My MicroVax 3400, R400X, and 486 desktop are in the dineing area, but they aren't ready for action yet. My PDP11/73 is in the living room sitting, as are a pair of Apple // machines, and a TIPC that needs to be shipped to Germany. My storage room contains un-setup machines and parts. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA James Rice wrote: > > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large > room to set mine up. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 01:45:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed References: Message-ID: <007501c12ad6$9a132b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The BASF 6106 is a FDD. I've got one or two in the pit somewhere, but they're half-high 5-1/4" drives with full-height fronts on them. They have a door that opens if you push on the bottom. It's an SA400 look/work-alike, methinks. Though I've got the doc's somewhere, I haven't looked at 'em since the late '70's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:43 PM Subject: Re: TRS80 help needed > > > > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > > > > > I have just been given a Model One (which I haven't got into yet,) > > and a Model 4, along with some manuals and drives. > > One of the external drives is a BASF Model 6106, would this by > > chance be an early hard drive? It is built like a full height floppy, but > > there is no place to put one! Any information on it would be much appreciated. > > If it could be a BASF 6186, it would be a 15mb ST-506 MFM drive with 4 > Hds, 440 Cyl, and 17 SPT. RWC and WPC are both at 220. Drive is 5.25" > Full High. > - don > > > The Model 4 is suffering from a bad keyboard, (dead except for > > reset button,) and is working with one borrowed from another Model 4. Does > > anyone have information on it? It is not covered in the 4 technical > > reference manual. > > I haven't been able to get the 4 to recognize drive "1". I have > > five full height floppies on hand, and all will work OK as drive "0", but > > not as drive "1". I have checked the cable and it has the required missing > > contacts, "12, 14, 32" for "0" and "10, 14, 32" for "1", but still no action. > > I can't find any jumpers on the Texas Peripherals drives, am I > > missing something? > > > > Thanks > > > > Charlie Fox > > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 > > foxvideo@wincom.net > > Check out: > > Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com > > > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 21 19:55:51 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerr - IT WORKS In-Reply-To: "Louis Schulman" "Exidy Sorcerr - IT WORKS" (Aug 20, 19:09) References: <200108202309.TAA20064@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <10108220155.ZM16865@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 20, 19:09, Louis Schulman wrote: > I would like to report that after 3 months of probing, poking, desoldering, soldering, studying schematics, > reading data sheets, etc., etc., my Exidy Sorcerer WORKS! > In any event, I want to publicly thank Pete Turnbull, without whose help and encouragement this project > would not have been possible. Thanks for the acknowledgement, but I have to say that it was Louis's own perseverance and hard work that got the machine going :-) No mean feat, considering he didn't know much about logic circuits before he started, and this machine actually had several faults! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 02:02:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... References: Message-ID: <008601c12ad8$58c088c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure to what extent they're permitted to advertise the wares not provided and priced by the St.Louis store, but AFAIK, the Denver store has no input at all into what the St.Louis store does with its web site. The St. Louis store sometimes sends inventory to the branch stores, but one can't rely on that. Likewise, the Denver store seldom has the opportunity to send inventory to the St. Louis store. Requesting inventory known to be at the St. Louis store has no effect at all on what is sent. They've run a strange operation for a long time. The fact they're still around suggests they're doing something right, though. The owners, two brothers from St.Louis, one of whom recently passed on, have run this business as long as I can remember. Others have come and gone, and they've opened (and closed, a Houston store, and opened a SanDiego branch. I've never visited the branches, and don't really buy a lot of stuff from them at the Denver store, but I did hear rumblings about reopening the Houston store some years back. I don't know whether that happened. The Denver store manager went to the San Diego store in '84, IIRC, and the fellow who's the Denver store manager has been there since. The same guy who was the "assistant" manager has been there since the first time I walked into the place. What little I know about the operational details of the Denver store, I got from him. Though they aren't allowed an internet connection or a web site, they do have four phone lines, of which one or two are required to be kept open in case the boss wants to call in. Since email is both faster and more accurate, and doesn't rob floor personnel of customer contact time, I'd think they'd use that, particularly since it would save both a dedicated phone line and a big part of what a second phone line costs. DSL costs $20, while a phone line costs $40 for a business. Oh, well ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... > > > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > see below, plz. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Maslin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:22 PM > > Subject: Re: Wiring Classic Machines to Triacs (was: Assembly vs.... > > > > > > > > > > > > **** www.gatewayelex.com **** > > > > > > > Sadly, this web site is for the St.Louis store only, though it mentions the > > other stores. It reflects very little of what's at the Denver Gateway store, > > though some of the Denver stuff comes from St.Louis, which was the first store. > > There's quite a lot of electronics manufacturing in the Denver-Boulder-Longmont > > area, not to mention Ft.Collins and Colorado Springs, and the Denver store buys > > everywhere it can. I've tried to encourage the guys to set up a site at their > > store, but the St.Louis based mgmt is against it. > > Your point is well taken, Dick. I knew that it was a `corporate' > website, but there is quite a bit of commonality between stock at the > various stores. Still, when a store is able to `get to the well' they > should be permitted to advertise their wares. > > - don > > > One of the owners/founders passed on recently and that may signal some impending > > changes in operating style and pace, but I wouldn't bet on it. > > > > > > > > > > Web references, book references, personal experience, *any* info is > > welcome! > > > > There are LOTS of sites that handle "controlling the world" interface > > issues, > > > > and may show up on GOOGLE searches using simply the most obvious search > > terms. > > > > Try "stepping motor" or Fourier Series, just for grins ... > > > > > > > > > > Thanks loads (and trying to keep the S/N ratio higher...) > > > > > > > > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > > > > -- > > > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > > > > > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > > > > > > > > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > > > > > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 02:09:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. References: Message-ID: <000c01c12ad9$6d8cd320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OOPS! I counted the wrong direction OR set the data string location wrong, but you get the idea. Putting the program in RAM requires some sort of a tool, eitehr in the form of a front panel, or in the form of a debug monitor, just as some others' programs require a loader to do the dirty work. Strobing a printer port isn't really necessary if you consider a display to console as a PRINT operation, which I really never did, but since 'C' and BASIC seem to agree that printf() or PRINT "..." mean echo to console ... Dick From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 03:47:20 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010822094720.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 11:22 pm 21/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> >The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and >> somebody, >> >somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... >> >> Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a >> hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides, > >Well, this is good practice, then :-) True :) It does seem a shame to practice on such a rare piece of kit, somehow... >> Maplin seem to have mislaid my order for a bunch of soldering-related kit >> (e.g. the desolderer), so no major surgery can take place yet :( >> >> >If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be easier to effect repairs >> than >> >to find the complete and functional heart/lung/brain, eh? >> >> Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either > >What test equipment do you have? Erm, a multimeter... I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap... >Start by checking all the power rails (at the pins of the chips) with a >voltmeter. Get the PSU working first. Done & tested. Power is OK. >Then use a 'scope, logic probe or logic analyser (yes, OK, I have >somewhat fancy test gear) to check the clock input to the 6502. Actually, I used the voltmeter for that; it reads approx half the normal input voltage, which *suggests* that its OK. >If >missing, fix the clock circuit. Check the reset pin while you're at it, >to ensure the machine is not stuck in the reset state. Without good >power, clock, and reset, the machine is not going to do a lot. Reset is OK too, so theoretically (and assuming the clock really is ticking, and not just stuck at a constant half voltage) the CPU is getting what it'll need. > >Then use the same instrument(s) to check the phi2 (bus clock output) of >the 6502. And look for activity on the address/data buses. > The clock outputs register lower voltages than the clock in (0.93v and 0.75v). However, that tells me pretty much bugger all, I will need some better kit to really examine those. >When you've got this far, it's then time to see just what ROM(s) are >being selected (logic probe, etc on the CS/ pins) and thus what the CPU >is doing. Unless, of course you have a logic analyser that can look at >all 16 address lines at once. This is realms of the unknown for me - I shall have to go look up logic probes/logic analysers... I assume the same sort of checks can be done with most chips, e.g. RAM, ULAs and so forth. >> not starting up, or the beeper is dead (and without the screen, the beeper > >Is there known to be a fault with the monitor, or do you just get nothing >on the screen. If the latter, the monitor might be fine and the fault due >to the mainboard never outputting video data (the CPU has to initialise >the 6845, etc for the monitor to display anything, so you need to debug >the CPU side first). The latter, although according to the chap I got it from, it uesd to bleep at power on, but with nothing on the screen. However, when I put the (now known to be) dead CPU in my working 8032, the monitor failed to whistle like it ususally does; so it's _possible_ the monitor will be OK. Right, I shall go look up logic probes & think... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 03:58:27 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <10108220039.ZM16835@unknown.zmail.host> References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 11:39 pm 21/08/2001 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Aug 21, 22:18, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >> >The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and >> somebody, >> >somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... > >> Hmm, possibly. > >Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532 >EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have >dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago). > I've already got the ROM dumps (they are available on funet), what I don't have is the means to burn EPROMs. Still, that's fixable - Maplin do EPROM burners. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed Aug 22 03:58:41 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D53@BUSH02> Hi Adrian, >> In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032 >> mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with? >> I don't have a mainboard but can probably fix yours for you. Where in the UK are you? I'm in Shropshire but travel a fair bit (if infrequently). >> I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are >> missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath >> life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain >> transplant for it - for now, at least. > If you have a complete set of known good ROMs for this model it shouldn't be a problem to fix. Would it need to be fixed with NOS components or would you be willing to accept modern replacements for some parts? Cheers, Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 22 00:16:01 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less > instructions in > > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? > (ie, your > > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > > instructions there). > > > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > > printed, which means using built in system support. > >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise >left for the reader). :-) I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: ORG 0000h JMP 0000h ORG 0CC00h DB 'Hello World!' That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles. The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program loader take care of it for you. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 22 00:16:01 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less > instructions in > > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? > (ie, your > > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > > instructions there). > > > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > > printed, which means using built in system support. > >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise >left for the reader). :-) I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: ORG 0000h JMP 0000h ORG 0CC00h DB 'Hello World!' That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles. The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program loader take care of it for you. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 22 00:16:01 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less > instructions in > > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? > (ie, your > > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > > instructions there). > > > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > > printed, which means using built in system support. > >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise >left for the reader). :-) I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: ORG 0000h JMP 0000h ORG 0CC00h DB 'Hello World!' That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles. The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program loader take care of it for you. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 22 04:21:41 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010821102958.00a07aa0@www.mcmanis.com> References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: I am looking at KVM switches so that I can put maybe 6 or 8 systems on a metro rack (wire shelf system, sometimes on casters) and run all of them, or any of them I want. Mostly this would be for my livingroom "cluster" of mixed mac and PC, where about 2 of them would be regular direct use machines and the rest servers, firewall, and limited use floppy copy machines. Anybody else using KVM switches? suggestions? I have an old electronic KVM and even some 3 piece cable sets, but I am edging toward maybe a used Belkin omniview or whatever they are called. From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 05:05:59 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D53@BUSH02> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010822110559.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 09:58 am 22/08/2001 +0100, Davison, Lee wrote: >Hi Adrian, > > >> In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore >8032 > >> mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to >part with? > >> >I don't have a mainboard but can probably fix yours for you. Where in the UK >are you? I'm in Shropshire but travel a fair bit (if infrequently). > > >> I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs >are > >> missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough >to breath > >> life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a >heart/lung/brain > >> transplant for it - for now, at least. > > >If you have a complete set of known good ROMs for this model it shouldn't be >a problem to fix. Would it need to be fixed with NOS components or would you >be willing to accept modern replacements for some parts? Hi Lee, I've no problem with using modern replacements; I suspect in most cases they'd be indistinguishable from the real thing anyway. The main problem I've got is not being able to diagnose the fault - I may need more test gear before I can have a proper stab at it. Also, I don't really have a complete spare set of ROMs; I've been borrowing the ones out of my working 8032... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil Wed Aug 22 06:23:05 2001 From: taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: TOY-11 In-Reply-To: <200108181937.PAA05498@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822071417.00a97950@crystal.nrl.navy.mil> At 03:37 PM 8/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >I have one of the Codar boards... it is part of the 11/73 which >used to run the heating/cooling systems at the DEC mill complex. The TOY-11 has a copyright date of 1983 on the board and the ic's have date codes for 1986. Isn't old good! >If you can check the battery and replace it if needed, put it >in a qbus machine and see how many registers there are after 176600 >(open 176600 and then simply hit until it complains). I used the MAP function in my 11/23+ boot rom to find the registers, there are two used by the TOY-11. 176670 and 176672. >Keep track of the contents and see if they correlate to the >current date/time... keep in mind the registers may have the >info in BCD... > >In fact... I just found some datasheets for the chip on the web and >can see that the info is in BCD... and it is in successive registers >on the chip... the question is whether the qbus board implements >a direct one-for-one relation to the chip registers or if there is >a control register used as an index (write the register number to >read) and a buffer register which is read to read that chip register >and written to set that chip register. It appears that the TOY-11 implementation is very simple. Address 176670 is write only and sets up the address code on the clock chip. 176672 is read/write and I assume that means if you read you get the current counter setting and if you write you set the counter. At least that is what I have been able to do by writing codes to '670 and then reading '672. >Oh, another thing... it could be that the registers are in successive >*BYTES*, not words. It looks like the contents of 176672 contain a byte of data, 2 BCD digits. >Keep me informed... sounds interesting... I might be able to help >with a program which reads the info and sets the RT system date/time >on bootup... I'm going to look at the software for the Codar board, maybe that can be adapted to work with the TOY-11. From james at cs.york.ac.uk Wed Aug 22 07:29:04 2001 From: james at cs.york.ac.uk (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <10108220128.ZM16852@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 12:16, James Rice wrote: > On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for > the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and > functioning? Does your SO understand? my collection lives in our (small) spare room. it's more or less all runable, but it takes about five minutes to shuffle stuff so that a particular machine is accessible. i have: sgi indy, indigo2 and indigo, sun 3/60, 3/160 (currently non-op), ipc, classic, and a modified elc, acorn a310 and r260, hp 9000/735 and laserjet 4si, next mono slab, apple lc475 and mp100, the inevitable pc stuff - 3 desktops and a laptop the two main obstacles to the collection are the space, it is a very small room and there is barely room for a chair left, and the stairs, which are steep and narrow. getting some of the heavier stuff up there is, err, interesting, isn't it, pete? my partner is very good about it all. i do try not to anagonise her too much by keeping all the machine in one room.. mostly. i got her to agree in principle to using a module from an sgi o2000 as a coffee table in the living room though - quite impressive, i thought. -- J.F.Carter http://www.jfc.org.uk/ From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 07:22:02 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Plastic or Ceramic? Message-ID: <200108221222.NAA29821@ns.mgf.net> I need a new 6502 for my Commodore 8032 (see posts passim); and it looks like there's a couple of options available, both CMOS and at a variety of speeds from 1-6MHz. However, both DIL variants are available in in plastic or ceramic carriers - what is the advantage/disadvantage of either of those? From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 06:40:36 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Misc. computers for sale Message-ID: The lady below would like to receive offers on the systems listed. Please reply directly to her: Reply-to: Norma Shulman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 08:38:40 -0400 From: Norma Shulman Subject: More information needed I have 4 old systems: (1) Atari 800XL system including a disk drive, printer, games, and software. (2) Mac 512 with a Tecmar 5 MB external hard disk. (3) Mac 128K (upgraded with the 512K board from a machine we upgraded to a Plus) original machine (I have the sales receipt) with numeric keypad, external floppy drive, ImageWriter I, padded carrying case, much commercial software, and a complete public domain software library from the Boston Computer Society on 400K floppies. (4) dual-floppy Mac SE with a 40MB hitchhiker hard disk (connects directly to the SCSI port on the back - no cable), Jasmine 20 MB external drive, padded carrying case, ImageWriter II, Apple personal modem. Thank you, Norma Shulman shulman22@rcn.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Aug 22 08:01:36 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <10108220035.ZM16831@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <13669116878.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I just thought of another addition to my previous scheme - Some people don't like the idea of the moderator seeing things before people do, like in the example of free cool stuff... So perhaps we could make an alias or somesuch so that if a subscriber asks for it, all of the messages sent to the moderator for review could also be sent to them, so they see everything regardless (Exactly like the list is now). I guess now the question is, can the mailing-list software handle this sort of arrangement... ------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 22 08:31:57 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> from Jim Battle at "Aug 21, 1 10:16:01 pm" Message-ID: <200108221331.GAA11418@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise > >left for the reader). :-) > > > I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: > > ORG 0000h > JMP 0000h > > ORG 0CC00h > DB 'Hello World!' Oh yeah? ; Commodore 64 and 128 * = $0400 .asc 'hello world' You don't even have to JMP to it. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Aug 22 08:34:41 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C5D@proxy.mppw.com> Message-ID: <001401c12b0f$326f66f0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Jay: I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea. There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: - off topic volume is way too high - we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is obviously intended to offend - subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when the topic has drifted Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of the problem posts. I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have crowded me out of full participation in the list. On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone comes up with a question. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From oldhomecomputers at bigpond.com Wed Aug 22 08:50:55 2001 From: oldhomecomputers at bigpond.com (OldHomeComputers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 References: Message-ID: <010901c12b11$77c19be0$7937fea9@Guerney> From: Sellam Ismail > I've never seen this model, but I don't think it's any different than > prior models. The only physical difference is the enclosure around the > display Umm ... Sellam was definitely not looking at a AIM-65 when he wrote that. I've got mine next to me and there are many differences: The keyboard has an extra row of function keys and the connector is right of centre instead of far left. The display is much wider (40 characters instead of 20 according to the website) The PCB is completely different The printer is different and placed further back. In fact, it is entirely different!! I've never heard of this model before and I'd be interested if these were ever actually marketed, and if anyone has one. Phil (Brisbane, Australia) From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 09:37:48 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation Message-ID: >There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: > >- off topic volume is way too high >- we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is >obviously intended to offend >- subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when >the topic has drifted Personal attacks, insults, and incorrect subject lines are symtoms of the underlying problem which is OT posts. We're all adults here. Let's take it upon ourselves to correct the problem and move forward. It's pretty simle really: 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. That's all... This does not need to be a democratic process. Anyone that doesn't like the rules or won't comply, can start their own damned list. My $.02 SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 22 09:47:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <20010822092345.A11350@borg.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Kent Borg wrote: > On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 06:10:37PM -0400, Master of all that Sucks wrote: > > I think the distinction between supercomputers and mainframes is even > > deeper than that. Supercomputers are designed to do things very very > > fast. Mainframes are designed to do many many things at once. The two > > goals frequently aren't convergent. > > Very much so. Maybe a supercomputer is to a dragster as a mainframe > is to an 18-wheeler. Both might have roughly the same magnatude > engine with the dragster doing somewhat more power (I am making this > up--don't fault me on the specifics), but the intended uses are very > different. Your analogy is quite good. If we continue this analogy, we can say that your proverbial dragster has a lot more horsepower than the tractor-trailer, and the semi has a lot more torque than the dragster. You could force a supercomputer to act like a mainframe, or vice versa, but it wouldn't work very well. > > Mainframes are very good at serving thousands, if not hundreds of > > thousands of *simultaneous* transactions. > > Yes, though earlier mainframes were doing batch jobs with cards and > later mag tape. But always mainframes are big iron for business and > that makes them very different from the shortlived big thoroughbred > iron of supercomputers. They were still sitting there chugging away doing many simultaneous (not very quickly) with data obtained from mag tape or punched card. There were, of course exceptions to this paradigm, but I still think it's a good way of looking at it. > -kb, the micro-oriented Kent who used to be puzzled over what made > mainframes different, and though he still doesn't know that much about > mainframe architecture, he at least understands their function is > quite different. > Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 22 10:05:02 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108221331.GAA11418@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: > > > > ORG 0000h > > JMP 0000h > > > > ORG 0CC00h > > DB 'Hello World!' > > Oh yeah? > > ; Commodore 64 and 128 > * = $0400 > .asc 'hello world' > > You don't even have to JMP to it. :-) > Cameron, if memory serves, isn't $FFD2 the kernal print routine? g. From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 09:21:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: > > ORG 0000h > JMP 0000h > > ORG 0CC00h > DB 'Hello World!' > > That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles. > > The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program > loader take care of it for you. Aw c'mon, this doesn't count. If that's accepted, then this pathetic entry must be accepted on the enhanced Apple //e, which allows quoted characters to be entered directly into memory as follows: 400: 'H 'E 'L 'L 'O ' 'W 'O 'R 'L 'D '! 12 bytes, and gets stored right to screen memory. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 22 10:21:46 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: ancient LaserJet's Message-ID: Richard Erlacher was inquiring about ancient LaserJet IID's. Here is some info stored in my overloaded brain, maybe slightly garbled. In duplex mode the HP LaserJet IID printed the paper on one side then ejected the paper out the rear and then reinserted the paper to print the other side. It was kind of a triangular contraption that held the paper on the way out and then allowed it to be pulled back in. >From about 1988-1995 we didn't use MSWindows, only DOS. Ours were connected via parallel interfaces and downloading fonts took memory and time, the font cartridges offered the chance to have "standard" fonts already installed. The other problem was that occasionally somebody would send/download non HP fonts to the printer and then garbage would print for 20-50 pages. It was also difficult to track whose fonts were in the printer at any one time. We always reset between jobs. We also didn't install lots of printer memory. We later got a HP 2000 printer but we had nothing but problems, There were barcode fonts, graphic fonts, foreign languages, and line drawing fonts. I personally owned a IID and was given another but I donated them to the local not-for-profit computer surplus. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From matt at pkl.net Wed Aug 22 10:23:23 2001 From: matt at pkl.net (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > >This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one etches custom boards > > >with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes > > >several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting > > >MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with, > > >say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs? > > > > Heh! I like it... The chips would be cheaper in bulk as well, and with a > > bit of heatsinking it should be possible to overclock them somewhat. > > How hot do Z80s get under normal operation? Would you be able to > overclock them using heatsinks without fans? That would simplify things a > bit. Well I remember my Sinclair ZX spectrum (48k model woohoo!) got warm enough to be nice to sit on your lap on a cold day, but I think that was the voltage regulator with the large piece of aluminium used as a heatsync more than the Z80. My TRS-80 is a different story tho - the RAM used to heat that one :&) --Matt From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 10:13:03 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? Message-ID: Hello all, I have a few S-100 motherboards that I'd like to make use of, but I have no decent linear power supply for them. I have little experience designing power supplies, so I hesitate to try to build a linear supply. Also, the cost of the transformer alone would most likely be prohibitive. Then there's the heat issues, big caps that go boom when my design fails, etc. I would like to ask if any of you know of an existing, available, commercial switching power supply that could be used to power an S-100 computer? Here's the wrinkle: S-100 requires around +8V and around +/- 16V. The "around" is because traditionally S-100 computers were supplied by unregulated linear supplies of these voltages, and the S-100 cards themselves carried the voltage regulators necessary to regulate the supply voltages to +5V and +/- 12V. Also, the current must be high on the +8V side (say 20+ amps, especially for a 20-slot motherboard), and about 5+ amps on +/- 16V. I realize I could get a +5V and +/- 12V supply, and just remove the regulation circuitry on the cards, but given the amount of them that I have, that gets very labor-intensive, and I'd rather not have to hack out parts of these cards... Thanks for any pointers... Rich B. From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 09:25:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <13669116878.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > I just thought of another addition to my previous scheme - Some people > don't like the idea of the moderator seeing things before people do, > like in the example of free cool stuff... So perhaps we could make an > alias or somesuch so that if a subscriber asks for it, all of the > messages sent to the moderator for review could also be sent to them, > so they see everything regardless (Exactly like the list is now). An even simpler solution is to make the from or reply addresses "blind" to the moderator, so s/he can't reply to the message until it actually gets posted to the list where the message is then of course unaltered. This would assume the moderator does not have access to the mail system and would probably require some coding. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 22 10:27:21 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at "Aug 21, 2001 08:47:51 pm" Message-ID: <200108221527.IAA29457@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote: > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > instructions there). > > So far, nobody has set the rules for the game. > And if it is NOT to use OS API stuff, should we also outlaw using the OS > to start and end the program or even to load it? > How about routines in ROM? (PC BIOS INT 10h function 0Eh will display a > character) Not being able to use OS services makes it quite a bit harder, especially given that the physical address of display memory isn't a constant on machines of the same architecture. Moving a string to display memory is easy if you know the destination address. In other words, a program that would do the job on the Ultra 10 on my desk is 32 bytes or so. A program that will do the job on the Ultra 10 on my desk and on the Sparcstation 2 on the next desk is a few K. It gets a whole lot easier if you can use the ROM or the OS. Eric From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 09:30:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:38 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Steve Robertson wrote: > It's pretty simle really: > > 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. > > 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. And anyone who breaks the rules, no matter how slight, is IMMERSED IN MOLTEN IRON!!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 10:30:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822094720.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <001b01c12b1f$5fadf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are relatively inexpensive ($20 US) multimeters that can measure frequency up into the tens of megahertz that would be helpful. If you are measuring a clock, it will tell you right away whether it's right. It won't tell you much if it's wrong, though. It does give you more information than just measuring voltage. Test equipment is expensive, but hardly anyone wants the "old" stuff that once was perfectly adequate for precisely this class of equipment. A 'scope with two probes, delayed sweep timebase, and a bandwidth in excess of 20 MHz (e.g. TEK 935) is probably adequate. If you shop around, you should have no trouble finding a TEK 465 (100 MHz) that's quite complete and functional for somewhere on the order of $250. Over time, these will become less available, however. My old '465 is still the workhorse around my place, though I have faster, fancier models. As classic hardware ages, it's likely to break and you'll want to be able to fix it, since the technology of the '70's and '80's renders this stuff inherently repairable. It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life into what was a "dear, departed" computer from yesteryear. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:47 AM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 11:22 pm 21/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: > >> >The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and > >> somebody, > >> >somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... > >> > >> Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a > >> hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides, > > > >Well, this is good practice, then :-) > > True :) It does seem a shame to practice on such a rare piece of kit, > somehow... > > >> Maplin seem to have mislaid my order for a bunch of soldering-related kit > >> (e.g. the desolderer), so no major surgery can take place yet :( > >> > >> >If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be easier to effect repairs > >> than > >> >to find the complete and functional heart/lung/brain, eh? > >> > >> Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either > > > >What test equipment do you have? > > Erm, a multimeter... > > I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap... > > >Start by checking all the power rails (at the pins of the chips) with a > >voltmeter. Get the PSU working first. > > Done & tested. Power is OK. > > >Then use a 'scope, logic probe or logic analyser (yes, OK, I have > >somewhat fancy test gear) to check the clock input to the 6502. > > Actually, I used the voltmeter for that; it reads approx half the normal > input voltage, which *suggests* that its OK. > > >If > >missing, fix the clock circuit. Check the reset pin while you're at it, > >to ensure the machine is not stuck in the reset state. Without good > >power, clock, and reset, the machine is not going to do a lot. > > Reset is OK too, so theoretically (and assuming the clock really is > ticking, and not just stuck at a constant half voltage) the CPU is getting > what it'll need. > > > > >Then use the same instrument(s) to check the phi2 (bus clock output) of > >the 6502. And look for activity on the address/data buses. > > > > The clock outputs register lower voltages than the clock in (0.93v and > 0.75v). However, that tells me pretty much bugger all, I will need some > better kit to really examine those. > > >When you've got this far, it's then time to see just what ROM(s) are > >being selected (logic probe, etc on the CS/ pins) and thus what the CPU > >is doing. Unless, of course you have a logic analyser that can look at > >all 16 address lines at once. > > This is realms of the unknown for me - I shall have to go look up logic > probes/logic analysers... I assume the same sort of checks can be done with > most chips, e.g. RAM, ULAs and so forth. > > >> not starting up, or the beeper is dead (and without the screen, the beeper > > > >Is there known to be a fault with the monitor, or do you just get nothing > >on the screen. If the latter, the monitor might be fine and the fault due > >to the mainboard never outputting video data (the CPU has to initialise > >the 6845, etc for the monitor to display anything, so you need to debug > >the CPU side first). > > The latter, although according to the chap I got it from, it uesd to bleep > at power on, but with nothing on the screen. However, when I put the (now > known to be) dead CPU in my working 8032, the monitor failed to whistle > like it ususally does; so it's _possible_ the monitor will be OK. > > Right, I shall go look up logic probes & think... > > > > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 10:32:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <002101c12b1f$a2450f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, if you can get the EPROMs programmed and just lack a 6502, I imagine I can find you one in the basement if you can't get one locally. Let me know if that's all that stands in your way. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:58 AM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 11:39 pm 21/08/2001 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On Aug 21, 22:18, Adrian Vickers wrote: > > > >> >The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and > >> somebody, > >> >somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... > > > >> Hmm, possibly. > > > >Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532 > >EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have > >dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago). > > > > I've already got the ROM dumps (they are available on funet), what I don't > have is the means to burn EPROMs. Still, that's fixable - Maplin do EPROM > burners. > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 22 10:33:46 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010821214807.0262af60@pop.azstarnet.com> from "Gordon C. Zaft" at "Aug 21, 2001 09:48:51 pm" Message-ID: <200108221533.IAA29595@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Somehow I suspect this code won't run on my PPC boards. > > Linux != x86. Sorry, I should have been more specific. I've never written assembly for PPC. How about showing us how it's done? Eric From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 10:41:45 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CARDIAC (was Re: [ot?] request for comment) In-Reply-To: <3B7702BE.7010909@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20010822154145.58780.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ron Hudson wrote: > I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard > slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all I > can find is the Instruction Set... Do you _have_ a CARDIAC? Do you want one? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 10:42:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: Message-ID: <003d01c12b21$0d662e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This all makes sense. The only problem is it makes lots of work for the list owner. I'd suggest one alternative that would help with that ... use a list of disqualifying terms, beginning with the various "deletable expletives" that occasionally appear in peoples posts/rants once they get fired up. Reject such posts from the list and, instead, redirect them back to the originator together with an exhortation to rephrase. That can be accomplished automatically, hence, without burdening the list owner to do it all. While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic of at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT threads. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:37 AM Subject: RE: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > >There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: > > > >- off topic volume is way too high > >- we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is > >obviously intended to offend > >- subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when > >the topic has drifted > > Personal attacks, insults, and incorrect subject lines are symtoms of the > underlying problem which is OT posts. We're all adults here. Let's take it > upon ourselves to correct the problem and move forward. > > It's pretty simle really: > > 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. > > 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. > > That's all... > > This does not need to be a democratic process. Anyone that doesn't like the > rules or won't comply, can start their own damned list. > > My $.02 > SteveRob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 10:44:39 2001 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010822154439.46855.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, but there are difference, some big ones! Here is the original AIM 65: http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65.html Here again is the AIM 65/40: http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65-40.html Since I have both of them, it's easy to see the differences. The motherboard has a completely different layout with different components. Check out the photos and let me know what you think! Steve. --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, steve wrote: > > > > http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65-40.html > > What a terrific website! The pictures are extremely > well done. > > > Anyway, I can't find any information what-so-ever > on the web, and it > > comes without a user manual. > > I've never seen this model, but I don't think it's > any different than > prior models. The only physical difference is the > enclosure around the > display. > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 22 10:49:03 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> References: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <200108220353.XAA22387@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010822084830.00aacf00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Sorry about the four copies of my last message. For some reason Eudora thought the email was getting rejected and kept sending it. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From matt at pkl.net Wed Aug 22 10:59:14 2001 From: matt at pkl.net (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <001401c12b0f$326f66f0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: Hi, > I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea. This sounds like the most sensible option to me as well. > I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am > subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least > glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for > messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the > rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have > crowded me out of full participation in the list. It's not usually much of a problem for me, so long as I have the time to read the list. But at the moment I'm on holiday, and without my mail filters for two weeks. Today, it's taken me an hour to read my email, with a fair bit being classiccmp. (just a small observation) --Matt From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Aug 22 11:02:32 2001 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: [ot?] request for comment In-Reply-To: <3B7702BE.7010909@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Ron Hudson wrote: > I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard > slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all I > can find is the Instruction Set, none of how the instructions are > implemented. > > So, I decieded to write my own... > Here is the instruction set, I thought it best to consult with you all > before beginning to code. What > do you think? I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but I saw a recent response to it, and remembered some info. There is a CARDIAC simulator at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0253. This is from the DECUS TOPS-10 library, but it's written in BASIC, so it should be fairly portable. --Pat. From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Aug 22 11:06:48 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: References: <005c01c12a69$9abd1460$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3B839248.24612.4223B8D@localhost> Well I must admit to finding some hilarious moments in this current thread and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried extracting usefull info from eg: the Fido Rainbow archives and experienced sorting thru the frustrating rants and OT discussions that went on, would do well to remember those who follow. They won't give a damn about some minor former pres. of these United States. A little self-restraint would go a long way. Oh, and I'm baaack !! - after completing an arduous move of most of my collection to my retirement home in the boonies of north-central Manitoba. Lawrence > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the list..... > > > > It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of an > > unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;) > > > > Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ? > > Unfortunately, yes. And think about it this way: future hobbyists, > historians and researches will have to wade through 50 off-topic and out > of context messages before they find that ONE message that actually > contains the information they were looking for. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 11:12:04 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821135022.03a08700@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: >> I also collect full-size arcade games. > >I wish I could. My VAXen and my mainframes take up too much time money >power and space. You just need a wife that wants you to get the full-sized arcade games. Our first should be here on Friday (a 4-slot Neo Geo) and will be going into the dining room. Currently we've got a Neo Geo 1-slot board hooked up via a "Supergun" to a TV sitting on top of a MicroVAX 3500 in the dining room. What shocked me is when she said the VAX didn't have to go back into the computer room (one bedroom in the apartment is the computer room, and I'm the one that made the rule that all computers stay in there). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 11:12:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <20010821175809.F21150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <3B829780.94AF8B22@texoma.net> Message-ID: >I can. I have room for 4 19" racks with rear crawlspace, a LA120, a VT52, >a PC, a guitar amp, and bookshelves. > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com But do you have enough room for bookshelves? Especially as it looks like those 4 racks probably have DEC gear in them. Here at the apartment I've got 3 bookshelves, and in storage I've got about 8' of bookshelves, almost all of that is taken up by DEC documentation, AND I've still got more that's boxed up. That doesn't even cover the boxes of other doc's up in storage or the 2+ shelves of books in the living room (they were supposed to go to storage instead of the apartment when we moved in here). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 22 11:18:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > One of the external drives is a BASF Model 6106, would this by > > chance be an early hard drive? It is built like a full height floppy, but > > there is no place to put one! Any information on it would be much appreciated. > If it could be a BASF 6186, it would be a 15mb ST-506 MFM drive with 4 > Hds, 440 Cyl, and 17 SPT. RWC and WPC are both at 220. Drive is 5.25" > Full High. BASF also made a 2/3 height floppy (could get 3 into a double bay). It was the first 5.25" drive smaller than "full height" that I saw. It also was the first one that I saw that had a D.O.A. failure rate of more than 50%. The door on it was not very obvious - you push on the door and then let it pop open. I recommend pushing on that door with a very large mallet. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 22 11:26:06 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: an odd question Message-ID: weird characters, cursor control, bells and whistles I believe the "\n", "\t" and other conventions are linked to the printf function in C. For example if you want to a print a non scrolling list of lines processed you could send out lines to printf a 5 character number and then use "\b\b\b\b\b" to reposition the cursor at the start of the number so that the next print command overwrites it. The effect is handy with terminals kind of a pain on a LA34 where the printing is overwritten on the paper Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 22 11:41:01 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: <13669116878.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3B83E09D.F1FB1D11@internet1.net> Maybe the moderator should see free cool stuff first. Moderating a list can be quite time consuming and or tedious. It would make the job, not quite a thankless. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > I just thought of another addition to my previous scheme - > Some people don't like the idea of the moderator seeing things before people > do, like in the example of free cool stuff... So perhaps we could make an > alias or somesuch so that if a subscriber asks for it, all of the messages > sent to the moderator for review could also be sent to them, so they see > everything regardless (Exactly like the list is now). > > I guess now the question is, can the mailing-list software handle this sort > of arrangement... > ------- From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 22 11:41:14 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) References: <017701c12a9e$042c5c60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B83E0AA.A82CC4B5@internet1.net> John, I came up with the, "GW Bush Canceled VCF 5.0 VCF" subject line. I changed it from Sellam's original subject line on VCF possibly being canceled. I figured that was a more accurate subject for RD's comments..... I think it was RD's comments, I deleted most of it now. I responded because I get sick and tired of people saying stupid outlandish things about President Bush. Chad Fernandez Michiagn, USA John Allain wrote: > Why a thread like "GW Bush Cancelled VCF 5.0 VCF" > didn't halt immediately is a mystery. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 11:42:13 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CARDIAC (was Re: [ot?] request for comment) In-Reply-To: <20010822154145.58780.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B7702BE.7010909@cnonline.net> Message-ID: >--- Ron Hudson wrote: >> I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard >> slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but all I >> can find is the Instruction Set... What platform are you wanting to write it for? One exists for TOPS-10, which I've got running on TOPS-10 7.03, which oddly enough wasn't as easy as I expected (had to fix some of the source). I've also got it more or less ported to OpenVMS (I've not figured out some of the very odd TOPS-10 BASIC statements as it's an odd dialect). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 11:43:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed References: Message-ID: <002801c12b29$98821540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> In reality that's what the 6106's are, and I should have been more precise about the way I described them. The ones that I have were shipped with a front face that fit a full-height slot. The BASF 6106 doc's I've had since '82 or so are out on my carport where I put them one time when my basement was suffering from excess water. Some years have elapsed since then, however, since the water comes back more frequently than the urge to put things away. I may actually find them again, if that might help. I'm sure the spec doesn't call for a mallet, however. I think the Europeans developed a furniture door closure similar to what this drive uses, i.e. push to close, push to open. I have it on a number of my Scandinavian furniture pieces. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:18 AM Subject: Re: TRS80 help needed > > > One of the external drives is a BASF Model 6106, would this by > > > chance be an early hard drive? It is built like a full height floppy, but > > > there is no place to put one! Any information on it would be much appreciated. > > If it could be a BASF 6186, it would be a 15mb ST-506 MFM drive with 4 > > Hds, 440 Cyl, and 17 SPT. RWC and WPC are both at 220. Drive is 5.25" > > Full High. > > BASF also made a 2/3 height floppy (could get 3 into a double bay). It > was the first 5.25" drive smaller than "full height" that I saw. It also > was the first one that I saw that had a D.O.A. failure rate of more than > 50%. The door on it was not very obvious - you push on the door and then > let it pop open. I recommend pushing on that door with a very large > mallet. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 22 11:47:00 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: Here we go with the language discussion. First I put on the flameproof suit, insert ear plugs, cover eyes with antiflash goggles, and place flack vest on front and back. Are any of the following a computer language? IBM JCL IBM assembler DCL SPSS SAS BMDP C Datatrieve HPGL At some time in my life I have solved problems with all of them. I peek out to see if there is superheated steam in the area and then check Geiger counter for background radiation levels. My only comment is that you should pick the language you like and that can solve your problem. I'm too old to be intolerant. Mike From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 22 11:48:54 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 22, 01 07:30:16 am Message-ID: <200108221648.MAA21855@wordstock.com> > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > It's pretty simle really: > > > > 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. > > > > 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. > > And anyone who breaks the rules, no matter how slight, is IMMERSED IN > MOLTEN IRON!!! > How about making them listen to the entire Wayne Green speech? Bryan From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 22 11:51:07 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: <001401c12b0f$326f66f0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3B83E2FB.ECB44574@rain.org> Hear, hear!!!! I too have taken to scanning the top line of each message and end up basically deleting them with the decision made in about .2 seconds. I used to read everything but there is just too much garbage to do that anymore with my limited time. I do not favor moderation, but I do favor responsible posting. Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Jay: > > I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea. > There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: > > - off topic volume is way too high > - we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is > obviously intended to offend > - subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when > the topic has drifted > > Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them > on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of > the problem posts. > > I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am > subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least > glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for > messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the > rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have > crowded me out of full participation in the list. > > On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and > has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone > comes up with a question. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl                 Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer      24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology              Euclid, OH 44117, USA > Euclid Labs                      engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 11:55:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: Message-ID: <004801c12b2b$3f4a3320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Agreed! The list owner should make the rules, and has the option of enforcing them. It's his list, after all. Participants in the list should be required to follow the rules absolutely and even the tiniest infraction on these rules shall disqualify the violator from any further participation, i.e. posting to the list, for a specified period, say, seven years. He/she can still receive the list, can still communicate with other participants, but, for that specified period, posts from that violator will not be made part of the list. That way we can avoid (1) inappropriate language, (2) promotion of current commercial activities, (3) personal attacks, and trolliing for them as well. I doubt anyone will disagree that it would be desirable that topics be adhered to and that persons posting to a thread with subject matter that has changed from that thread will be wise to change the subject line to reflect changes in content. Nevertheless, the list owner should be the one to make and enforce the rules. The safest way to do that, however, is to establish a set of rigorously enforcible criteria that can be automatically parsed, and start with those. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: RE: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > It's pretty simle really: > > > > 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. > > > > 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. > > And anyone who breaks the rules, no matter how slight, is IMMERSED IN > MOLTEN IRON!!! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 12:06:04 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <10108220039.ZM16835@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <20010822170604.92205.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532 > EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have > dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago). Yes. The 2532 *not* the 2732, will drop into the ROM sockets on a PET. I have been doing it since 1979. When I got my 32K 2001 (kinda like a 3032, not at all like a 4032 motherboard), one of the first things I did was to add 2 toolkit ROMs - BASIC-AID, ROM-RABBIT (a tape speeder) and a better monitor/assembler. The commercial stuff was purchased, and the freeware stuff was gotten at the local PET club on 2532s. I had the $C000 ROM fail on my original PET. I was able to burn a replacement and it's back on its feet. With the 2332 and 2732 pinouts, it's possible to build a pin-swabber, but the 2532 is a no-brainer (if you can find them). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 22 12:08:12 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <002801c12b29$98821540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > In reality that's what the 6106's are, and I should have been more precise about > the way I described them. The ones that I have were shipped with a front face > that fit a full-height slot. The BASF 6106 doc's I've had since '82 or so are > out on my carport where I put them one time when my basement was suffering from > excess water. Some years have elapsed since then, however, since the water > comes back more frequently than the urge to put things away. If the few dozen that we got in the late 70s, when they first came out were representative, then do not put them in the wet location, as that would be water pollution. > I may actually find them again, if that might help. I'm sure the spec doesn't > call for a mallet, however. I think the Europeans developed a furniture door > closure similar to what this drive uses, i.e. push to close, push to open. I > have it on a number of my Scandinavian furniture pieces. If the few dozen that we got in the late 70s, when they first came out were representative, the door was the least of the problems and worked OK, but performance of the drive would be IMPROVED if the door were operated a few hundred times with a very large sledge. Once the door could no longer be opened, the majority of the problems with the drive would be likely to cease. They were, indeed, a SA400 substitute. But whoever was in charge of their production quality control needs to be dipped in molten iron. EVERY BASF drive that we sold had to be replaced. In contrast, very few of the MPI drives had problems. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 22 12:24:43 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: Postscript I seem to remember that the different things you could do with postscript and display postscript were both very very CPU intensive. You needed to have the full page in memory to manipulate the bitmap. Most laser printers had so many milliseconds for the page commands to be interpreted, rasterized and produced before timeout. We used Xerox 2700 and 3700's and found that the with the timeout we ended up with 2 pages each with 1/2 of the image. All of the connections were either parallel or serial and that was also a limitation. We tried early non-storage Tektronix terminals did graphics list processing. Lots of primitives, simple fonts. Later ones the memory prices were cheap enough to have an entire page. Gordon Zaft wrote: > Isn't that basically the idea of display Postscript? Whatever >happened to that? > >GZ > >Gordon Zaft >zaft@azstarnet.com Mike From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 22 12:42:33 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <200108221648.MAA21855@wordstock.com> Message-ID: > > And anyone who breaks the rules, no matter how slight, is IMMERSED IN > > MOLTEN IRON!!! > > > > How about making them listen to the entire Wayne Green speech? > > Bryan > Geeze Bryan, that's pretty brutal. Can I have the molten iron instead? g. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 22 12:35:10 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Language disco In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Aug 22, 01 11:47:00 am Message-ID: <200108221735.NAA01259@wordstock.com> > > Here we go with the language discussion. > First I put on the flameproof suit, insert ear plugs, cover eyes with > antiflash goggles, and place flack vest on front and back. > Are any of the following a computer language? > I would say that all of these are computer languages. If they can solve problems, then why not? Whether the language is specific for certain types of tasks (say Postscript) or more general (C) it would still be a computer language... > IBM JCL > IBM assembler > DCL > SPSS > SAS > BMDP > C > Datatrieve > HPGL > > At some time in my life I have solved problems with all of them. > I peek out to see if there is superheated steam in the area and then check > Geiger counter for background radiation levels. My only comment is that you > should pick the language you like and that can solve your problem. I'm too > old to be intolerant. > Even FoxPro can loosely be considered a computer language... Bryan From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Aug 22 12:39:04 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else Message-ID: With the new genetic engineering maybe we should genetically engineer and breed programmers in categories. 1. Fast twitch, code before they think 2. Slow twitch, think then code A. Accurate code on first try B. Approximate code on first try y. Mission critical code is goal z. entertainment quality code is goal I think I'll order a 2Az for my next child. Intended to be humor, but I get acknowledgement, patent rights and a Nobel Prize if it actually comes to pass. Mike From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 11:50:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: new acquisition - Rockell AIM 65/40 In-Reply-To: <20010822154439.46855.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, steve wrote: > Ah, but there are difference, some big ones! > > Here is the original AIM 65: > http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65.html > > Here again is the AIM 65/40: > http://members.home.net/obsoletetechnology/AIM-65-40.html > > Since I have both of them, it's easy to see the > differences. > > The motherboard has a completely different layout with > different components. > > Check out the photos and let me know what you think! Yep, you and the previous poster who pointed out the differences are right. I didn't pay close enough attention. I blame it on none other than Jim Beam himself. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 11:52:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <200108221648.MAA21855@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > > It's pretty simle really: > > > > > > 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. > > > > > > 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. > > > > And anyone who breaks the rules, no matter how slight, is IMMERSED IN > > MOLTEN IRON!!! > > How about making them listen to the entire Wayne Green speech? That, and going back and re-reading every one of Dick's messages since he joined CC. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 13:00:09 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010807151515.00a6f6b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20010822180009.14477.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Bill Bradford may have mentioned these words: > >On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 11:35:32AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > >> I'll always hold in high esteem the 300 baud internal modem that let > me > >> discover 'the Internet' in ~1991. > > > >Same here. For me it was a HP 110 "laptop" with internal 300 baud > >modem, dialed up to Tymnet's PC PURSUIT service. Shortly after that, > >an Atari 520STfm with a Hayes Smartmodem 300. > > Holey-Moley - Y'all had the big toyz! ;-) > > I started with my CoCo2 & a 300baud Radio Shack mumble-modem... My first telecom experience was with a DECwriter II in a closet at Ohio State. They didn't give over large, open, well-lit spaces back in those days to terminals. A buddy of mine had a phone number to a RSTS machine somewhere (must have been on-campus, or at least a local call) and a username/password (I didn't ask where he got it ;-) We played BASIC games for hours on it. My first personal experience was when my first employer bought me a VIC modem - the one that fits on the user port of a C-64/VIC-20. It didn't even have a telco interface - you picked up the handset, dialed the number manually, waited for carrier and moved the coiled cord from the handset to the modem. I used to get into CompuServe and a local Apple BBS at 300 throbbing baud! Played hours of ADVENT and Scott Adams adventure games. ISTR off-peak CI$ time was $6/hour @ 300 bps. Eventually, I helped beta-test the pseudo-graphic VidTex interface software for the C-64. Still have the docs and binary. The sad part is now that I *work* for those guys (and have an employee account), there isn't any content left on the classic system worth mentioning, just menus. :-( -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 13:01:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed References: Message-ID: <006a01c12b34$86a2e240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I never had any door trouble with them back then, but I did note that the mechanism was not particularly robust. In the meantime, one of the pins that holds the latch in place has come out and, of course, the latch no longer works. I used one of these drives once. Since they didn't do the job compatibly with technology already available then, I set them aside and never used them. Like many products that didn't "make it," these were far enough off-target that one could see it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: TRS80 help needed > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > In reality that's what the 6106's are, and I should have been more precise about > > the way I described them. The ones that I have were shipped with a front face > > that fit a full-height slot. The BASF 6106 doc's I've had since '82 or so are > > out on my carport where I put them one time when my basement was suffering from > > excess water. Some years have elapsed since then, however, since the water > > comes back more frequently than the urge to put things away. > > If the few dozen that we got in the late 70s, when they first came out > were representative, then do not put them in the wet location, as that > would be water pollution. > > > I may actually find them again, if that might help. I'm sure the spec doesn't > > call for a mallet, however. I think the Europeans developed a furniture door > > closure similar to what this drive uses, i.e. push to close, push to open. I > > have it on a number of my Scandinavian furniture pieces. > > If the few dozen that we got in the late 70s, when they first came out > were representative, the door was the least of the problems and worked OK, > but performance of the drive would be IMPROVED if the door were operated a > few hundred times with a very large sledge. Once the door could no longer > be opened, the majority of the problems with the drive would be likely to > cease. > > They were, indeed, a SA400 substitute. But whoever was in charge of their > production quality control needs to be dipped in molten iron. > > EVERY BASF drive that we sold had to be replaced. In contrast, very few > of the MPI drives had problems. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 13:06:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: Message-ID: <007801c12b35$3a7fce40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You notice how some "foo's" can't keep from trolling? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > > > > It's pretty simle really: > > > > > > > > 1.) The list "owner" should make rule(s) about how the list is run. > > > > > > > > 2.) Anyone that wants to participate in the list must follow the rules. > > > > > > And anyone who breaks the rules, no matter how slight, is IMMERSED IN > > > MOLTEN IRON!!! > > > > How about making them listen to the entire Wayne Green speech? > > That, and going back and re-reading every one of Dick's messages since he > joined CC. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 13:18:24 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 22, 2001 02:21:41 AM Message-ID: <200108221818.OAA23018@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > Anybody else using KVM switches? suggestions? > > I have an old electronic KVM and even some 3 piece cable sets, but I am > edging toward maybe a used Belkin omniview or whatever they are called. I'm using a Belkin that was given to me and it's fairly nice, but sometimes it doesn't register the keystrokes to switch screens (Scroll-lock twice, then it beeps, then another key sequence to select the machine). Also, there seems to be some problems using the mouse and Linux (but you may have to play around with that). -spc (The Belkins can also be chained together, which is nice if you have an insane number of machines 8-) From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 22 13:18:20 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Available: DG Eclipse S/140 Programmer's Reference Message-ID: <20010822131820.O5412@mrbill.net> In my latest box of DEC docs came a "Programmer's Reference Series" manual for an Eclipse S/140, circa 1981 or so. useful to anyone? bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 22 13:23:23 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: [eric@gts-i.com: RE: pdp11] Message-ID: <20010822132323.R5412@mrbill.net> Can someone help this guy? Needs some 5.25" or 8" floppies formatted, and is willing to pay... Mail him directly. Bill ----- Forwarded message from Eric Gilbert ----- From: "Eric Gilbert" To: "Bill Bradford" Subject: RE: pdp11 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:23:10 -0700 Hello Bill, Thanks again for the help. I have a business client that needs formated disks for a DEC machine used in a production environment. He can't/won't use this machine for formating disks, and I don't have a system. So I either need to buy a cheap machine to format disks or pay someone to do it. My preferance is to send some boxes of disks and money to somebody who can do it. Eric Gilbert ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 22 13:24:44 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: [jjc@mac.com: pdp11 stuff] Message-ID: <20010822132444.T5412@mrbill.net> Another request for help - contact him directly if you can assist. Bill ----- Forwarded message from jjc@mac.com ----- From: jjc@mac.com Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:17:16 -0300 To: mrbill@pdp11.org Subject: pdp11 stuff Hi, I have some RK05 and RL02 media that I need data from. I would be glad to donate it to anyone who could retrieve the data. In addition, I believe that I may have some original PDP 11/23 (and 03) manuals, and miscellaneous non working parts. Please put me in contact with someone who I can trust to retrieve my data. John Christie (Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS) ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 13:32:23 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Aug 22, 2001 11:47:00 AM Message-ID: <200108221832.OAA23039@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great McFadden, Mike once stated: > > Here we go with the language discussion. > First I put on the flameproof suit, insert ear plugs, cover eyes with > antiflash goggles, and place flack vest on front and back. > Are any of the following a computer language? > > IBM JCL > IBM assembler > DCL > SPSS > SAS > BMDP > C > Datatrieve > HPGL If they're Turing Complete (basically, can you implement a Turing Machine?) then they're computer languages. TECO and vi are Turing Complete and therefore, technically computer languages (although you'd have to be one sick puppy to actually write a program in TECO or vi 8-) -spc (HTML is NOT Turing Complete ... ) From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 22 13:42:11 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections References: <20010822180009.14477.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c12b3a$281be9a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Is this true? I have a C64 and a vicmodem. I've only had the mod since VCFE, but someone there said that it would only work with the '20. John A. Ethan Dicks said: > My first personal experience was when my first employer bought > me a VIC modem - the one that fits on the user port of a C-64/VIC-20... From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Aug 22 13:48:13 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108221832.OAA23039@conman.org> Message-ID: <13669179977.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Sick puppy to program in TECO?] Umm. EMACS? ------- From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 22 14:05:35 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <13669116878.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20010822135643.J23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Some people don't like the idea of the moderator seeing things before > people do, like in the example of free cool stuff... So perhaps we > could make an alias or somesuch so that if a subscriber asks for it, > all of the messages sent to the moderator for review could also be > sent to them, so they see everything regardless (Exactly like the list > is now). I think it would be better to have a back door alias, for free stuff announcements only, that would bypass moderation. It would be very sacred; if you sent something to it that was not an announcement of free stuff (whether the offending mail be be spam, OT crap, or even a reply to such an announcement), you would be *banned* from all of classiccmp unless you could present a *very* good case to the list owner. Another way of doing it: don't do anything. If an moderated member wants to post a free stuff announcement, he either lets it go through the moderator or finds a trustworthy unmoderated member to post it for him. Just some ideas... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From glindsey at ssinc.com Wed Aug 22 14:16:44 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Language disco References: <200108221735.NAA01259@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <023201c12b3f$0d5e4360$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "Bryan Pope" said: > > > > Here we go with the language discussion. > > First I put on the flameproof suit, insert ear plugs, cover eyes with > > antiflash goggles, and place flack vest on front and back. > > Are any of the following a computer language? > > > > I would say that all of these are computer languages. If they can solve > problems, then why not? Whether the language is specific for certain types > of tasks (say Postscript) or more general (C) it would still be a computer > language... > I remember one of my old CS professors defining a computer language as having some way to store data, to gather input, to control program flow through either of these, and to generate output. Or something along those lines, anyway. I find that to be a pretty good yardstick to measure various "languages" by... I still cringe when people talk of "programming in HTML". :) GSL P.S. "Language disco" gave me the odd mental image of a bunch of linguists dancing to the "Saturday Night Fever" soundtrack... From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 22 14:17:19 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010821221259.00c198b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim, you must have gotten the shakes on the send key. This is four editions so far! - don On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less > > instructions in > > > > the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? > > (ie, your > > > > 23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional > > > > instructions there). > > > > > > Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language > > > element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something > > > printed, which means using built in system support. > > > >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise > >left for the reader). :-) > > > I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol: > > ORG 0000h > JMP 0000h > > ORG 0CC00h > DB 'Hello World!' > > That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles. > > The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program > loader take care of it for you. > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 22 14:21:41 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <003d01c12b21$0d662e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20010822141248.W23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'd suggest one alternative that would help with that ... use a list > of disqualifying terms, beginning with the various "deletable > expletives" that occasionally appear in peoples posts/rants once they > get fired up. That's a hard d4mn list for one sh1thead to make. It would take too fscking long, and some 455h0l3 b4574rd will always come along and think of some other p1550ff variation that breaks it. k-r4d 31337 h4X0r!!!!! I'm sorry if that was offensive, but I believe it sufficiently illustrated the point. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 22 14:18:53 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <003d01c12b21$0d662e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010822141544.02f08880@pc> At 09:42 AM 8/22/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic of >at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT threads. Yeah, but does that filter out the messages where the moderator is doing the swearing or insulting? :-) - John From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 14:17:26 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <002101c12b1f$a2450f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010822201726.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> At 09:32 am 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Well, if you can get the EPROMs programmed and just lack a 6502, I imagine I can >find you one in the basement if you can't get one locally. > >Let me know if that's all that stands in your way. > Hi Dick, Well, there's a few things which are standing in my way.... 1) I'm a complete newbie to microprocessor designs & troubleshooting (although I intend to rectify that, and have bought some books on the subject. Maybe I'll get into embedded systems using Z80s or similar... 2) I lack the tools to diagnose faults, again rectifiable from a nearby electronics store 3) Although I don't have an EPROM burner, I can get one. Learning to use it might be something of a challenge, but I'm sure I'll get there... Other than that, yes - it's just a case of getting a 6502... Interestingly, both of the versions that are currently available have extra instructions... I don't suppose that will affect the operation of existing CBM software, but it'd be a bit of a bummer if i wrote some m/c which worked in one machine and not another...! As for the offer - hold on for now, I may just bid on the German 8032SK, and fix this the easy way. But I definitely seem to have been bitten by the "DIY" bug.... time to subscribe to that home-made computer news group, I think... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 14:24:49 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:39 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <001b01c12b1f$5fadf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822094720.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010822202449.00a15fd8@192.168.1.2> At 09:30 am 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: >There are relatively inexpensive ($20 US) multimeters that can measure frequency >up into the tens of megahertz that would be helpful. If you are measuring a >clock, it will tell you right away whether it's right. It won't tell you much >if it's wrong, though. It does give you more information than just measuring >voltage. I just had a closer look at mine; I bought it from Halfords (translation for Statesiders: an auto spares/tools store) and it's got various motor related functions (an RPM reading and dwell angle measurement thingy), but I notice it has a frequency reading (Hz, may be a bit oversensitive for 1-2MHz), pulse width (mS) and period (mS) readings. All of these may be unsuitable for use on a high-speed computer, but I fancy giving them a go... It can also measure Vac, which is useful for checking transformers... >Test equipment is expensive, but hardly anyone wants the "old" stuff that once >was perfectly adequate for precisely this class of equipment. A 'scope with two >probes, delayed sweep timebase, and a bandwidth in excess of 20 MHz (e.g. TEK >935) is probably adequate. If you shop around, you should have no trouble >finding a TEK 465 (100 MHz) that's quite complete and functional for somewhere >on the order of $250. Over time, these will become less available, however. My >old '465 is still the workhorse around my place, though I have faster, fancier >models. This reminds me, a place I used to work at used HP oscilloscopes, c/w IEEE-488 bus. I don't know if it'd be possible to use a CBM8032 hooked to an oscilloscope to diagnose a faulty 8032; but it has a nice symmetry about it :) > >As classic hardware ages, it's likely to break and you'll want to be able to fix >it, since the technology of the '70's and '80's renders this stuff inherently >repairable. > >It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life into >what was a "dear, departed" computer from yesteryear. > Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's nice and simple. I haven't a clue how the bus works though.... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 22 14:31:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225690@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > [[ and I doubt I could do it anymore, but I could *whistle* the characters > Q & R into the handset while the modem was connected... Needless to say, > back then that "talent" still didn't attract the chicks! ;-) ]] I can still whistle a carrier into an acoustic coupler, and get it to hold until my breath runs out... this is with an Anderson- Jacobsen model... BTW: the breath *does* run out faster now, than it used to... -dq From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 22 14:30:47 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010822142321.W23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > >I can. I have room for 4 19" racks with rear crawlspace, a LA120, a VT52, > >a PC, a guitar amp, and bookshelves. > > But do you have enough room for bookshelves? ... I've got 3 > bookshelves, and in storage I've got about 8' of bookshelves, almost > all of that is taken up by DEC documentation, AND I've still got more > that's boxed up. That doesn't even cover the boxes of other doc's up > in storage or the 2+ shelves of books in the living room (they were > supposed to go to storage instead of the apartment when we moved in > here). I'm not in that boat yet. My DEC docs and programming texts currently take up only one of the two bookshelves. Attempts to enlarge the DEC docs section are underway. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 14:31:38 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: New Find Message-ID: Hey gang, I recently found a small computer in a junkyard and was wondering if anyone can help to identify it. All I got was the backplane and a handful of cards. No disks, no cabinent, no power supply, and no markings on any of the cards. The cards are approximately 4" x 5" and have a 56 pin edge connector with .156" spacing. At first I thought it might be STD bus but, STD uses .125" spacing so, that's not correct. Also the cards are smaller than STD and are mounted "sideways" (long side has the edge connector). The CPU card has a RCA 1802ACE processor, a 2M crystal oscillator, and some glue. There are a couple of I/O cards, identifiable by the existance of optoisolators on the cards. There's a ROM card populated with 8 x 2764's. Not sure but, that seems like a *lot* of ROM for this system. There's also a RAM card with a minimal amount of RAM and another card with a MC14034B keyboard encoder. I don't have any other 1802 stuff and would like to see if I could get it to do anything. If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd appreciate some info. SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Aug 22 14:41:09 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: ; from mmcfadden@cmh.edu on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:39:04PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010822124109.A24494@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:39:04PM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > With the new genetic engineering maybe we should genetically engineer and > breed programmers in categories. > > 1. Fast twitch, code before they think > 2. Slow twitch, think then code > > A. Accurate code on first try > B. Approximate code on first try > > y. Mission critical code is goal > z. entertainment quality code is goal > > I think I'll order a 2Az for my next child. > > Intended to be humor, but I get acknowledgement, patent rights and a Nobel > Prize if it actually comes to pass. You also get to deal with all the 1Bz's out there, as punishment for unleashing this idea on the world. :) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 22 15:01:37 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <200108221818.OAA23018@conman.org> Message-ID: > It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > > > Anybody else using KVM switches? suggestions? > > > > I have an old electronic KVM and even some 3 piece cable sets, but I am > > edging toward maybe a used Belkin omniview or whatever they are called. > > I'm using a Belkin that was given to me and it's fairly nice, but > sometimes it doesn't register the keystrokes to switch screens (Scroll-lock > twice, then it beeps, then another key sequence to select the machine). > Also, there seems to be some problems using the mouse and Linux (but you may > have to play around with that). > > -spc (The Belkins can also be chained together, which is nice if you > have an insane number of machines 8-) I thought that key sequence was only used for the OmniView SE 2 port KVM. The 4 port OmniView I have uses CTRL-SHIFT-ALT + console # + ENTER to change consoles. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 22 15:03:12 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Early internetworking connections In-Reply-To: <001f01c12b3a$281be9a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > Is this true? I have a C64 and a vicmodem. > I've only had the mod since VCFE, but someone > there said that it would only work with the '20. > John, the VIC-1600 (VicModem) will work in both the VIC-20 and the C-64. It should also work in the C-128. g. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 14:56:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822201726.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <008c01c12b44$85af1920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hi, Adrian! If you're going to have "old" hardware, you're sooner or later going to have to deal with DIY, since you can't hire out repairs of the sort you'll both want and trust. OTOH, if you put forth a bit of effort, mostly in the form of study, and invest as much as you can comfortably invest in test equipment and supplies, you'll most generally be able to handle the repairs you need done. This is especially true since you can get lots of help on this forum. Learning to operate an eprom programmer should be the least of your worries, not because it's unimportant, but because it's easy. A big part of getting the appropriate equipment is learning enough to know what's appropriate. Starting out small and simple is probably the best route. Since we've established that you'll have to do no soldering to (1) replace the EPROMs you lack, and (2) insert the CPU, you can probably breathe a sigh of relief, in light of your apparent aversion to attempting such things at this juncture. Perhaps that's just as well for now. If you replace your missing CPU with one that's as old as the original, you'll have little trouble. Back when the PET was built, there was only one type of 6502. That's the type you probably want. The CMOS versions were the ones that came up with extra instructions, and, coincidentally, without the undocumented ones that existed in the original. You might visit www.6502.org to get a bit more info about this. If you want, I'll mail you an old 1 MHz 6502, but, since it involves going to some trouble, please be sure that you've covered the other bases, so to speak, so the effort won't be in vain. In general, it might not be a bad idea to find someone in your area who has a working version of what you've got under study, just to see if you know what it looks like when it's working right. Moreover, a momentary parts swap can be VERY revealing. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 09:32 am 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: > >Well, if you can get the EPROMs programmed and just lack a 6502, I imagine > I can > >find you one in the basement if you can't get one locally. > > > >Let me know if that's all that stands in your way. > > > > Hi Dick, > > Well, there's a few things which are standing in my way.... > > 1) I'm a complete newbie to microprocessor designs & troubleshooting > (although I intend to rectify that, and have bought some books on the > subject. Maybe I'll get into embedded systems using Z80s or similar... > > 2) I lack the tools to diagnose faults, again rectifiable from a nearby > electronics store > > 3) Although I don't have an EPROM burner, I can get one. Learning to use it > might be something of a challenge, but I'm sure I'll get there... > > Other than that, yes - it's just a case of getting a 6502... Interestingly, > both of the versions that are currently available have extra > instructions... I don't suppose that will affect the operation of existing > CBM software, but it'd be a bit of a bummer if i wrote some m/c which > worked in one machine and not another...! > > As for the offer - hold on for now, I may just bid on the German 8032SK, > and fix this the easy way. But I definitely seem to have been bitten by the > "DIY" bug.... time to subscribe to that home-made computer news group, I > think... > > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 14:57:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010822141544.02f08880@pc> Message-ID: <009901c12b44$b5f9c4e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, it's his list, so it's his choice. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > At 09:42 AM 8/22/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic of > >at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT threads. > > Yeah, but does that filter out the messages where the moderator > is doing the swearing or insulting? :-) > > - John > > From jss at subatomix.com Wed Aug 22 14:59:08 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: PC11 & 11/20 Questions Message-ID: <20010822144113.D23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Well, I've now acquired a PC05 high-speed paper tape reader/punch for the PDP-11/20 I'm currently restoring. I still lack the PC11 board, though. Megan's list says the following: M781 PC11 U PC11 control board for KA11 M7810 PC11 U Paper tape reader/punch controller Do I *have* to use the M781 version, or can I also use the M7810 if it's all that I can find? What is the actual difference between the two boards? Next: why were the backplane modules mounted at the top of the BA11, wire wrap up, in the 11/20? It's easy to flip the thing over while it's not in a rack, but when it's in a rack... Some trivia: the two partial 11/20's from which this one is being built have serial numbers 786 and 1102. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Aug 22 15:00:30 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: TRS80 help received In-Reply-To: <002801c12b29$98821540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010822155707.00a65e60@mail.wincom.net> At 10:43 AM 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: >In reality that's what the 6106's are, and I should have been more precise >about >the way I described them. The ones that I have were shipped with a front face >that fit a full-height slot. The BASF 6106 doc's I've had since '82 or so are >out on my carport where I put them one time when my basement was suffering >from >excess water. Some years have elapsed since then, however, since the water >comes back more frequently than the urge to put things away. > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:18 AM >Subject: Re: TRS80 help needed > > > > > BASF also made a 2/3 height floppy (could get 3 into a double bay). It > > was the first 5.25" drive smaller than "full height" that I saw. It also > > was the first one that I saw that had a D.O.A. failure rate of more than > > 50%. The door on it was not very obvious - you push on the door and then > > let it pop open. I recommend pushing on that door with a very large > > mallet. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > > Fred and Richard, you are right. I pushed and it opened. The red LED had me confused. Thanks both, and also Don and Tony. Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 22 15:03:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: <20010822141248.W23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <009f01c12b45$866b47c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Such messages would undoubtedly slip through a simply coded filter, but the source could easily be rerouted to the bit-bucket. If someone is bent on being offensive, it's not hard to filter the source out in a more general way rather than just picking out the offensive posts. I'm trying to figure out how to keep from overburdening the list host, who's already got a full plate. It wouldn't be a bad thing to reject and return messages with more than, say, 3 misspellings, either. Too bad there's not a decent grammar/syntax checker ... anything that would cause people to THINK before hitting SEND would certainly be welcome. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:21 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > I'd suggest one alternative that would help with that ... use a list > > of disqualifying terms, beginning with the various "deletable > > expletives" that occasionally appear in peoples posts/rants once they > > get fired up. > > That's a hard d4mn list for one sh1thead to make. It would take too > fscking long, and some 455h0l3 b4574rd will always come along and think of > some other p1550ff variation that breaks it. k-r4d 31337 h4X0r!!!!! > > I'm sorry if that was offensive, but I believe it sufficiently illustrated > the point. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 15:26:14 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Hans Franke's trek continues In-Reply-To: <3B701B5B.994B08A4@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010822202614.91201.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> For those people who have been (or will be) part of Hans' trek across the U.S. on his Ural, I can say that he has made it as far as Columbus, OH. He did stay a few days here to fix a crack in his gas tank and left for parts West this afternoon. I helped him box up his H-8 and accessories, leaving him more room to collect stuff as he makes his way to California. I did manage to get a couple of pix of his "RV" (cargo trike with attached pop-up tent)... Hans with gas tank: http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000514.JPG Ural closeup (sans tank): http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000515.JPG -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 15:28:44 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 22, 2001 02:18:24 PM Message-ID: <200108222028.f7MKSih26211@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm using a Belkin that was given to me and it's fairly nice, but > sometimes it doesn't register the keystrokes to switch screens (Scroll-lock > twice, then it beeps, then another key sequence to select the machine). > Also, there seems to be some problems using the mouse and Linux (but you may > have to play around with that). > > -spc (The Belkins can also be chained together, which is nice if you > have an insane number of machines 8-) The Belkin I have seems to have had the ability to switch screens from the keyboard 'burned out'. It quite working after I tried mulitiple times to switch to a nonexistant system (oops). Other than that I really like mine. I've used it with PC's and DEC Alpha's, and the only problem I've had is with having the Alpha's keyboard plugged in, the KVM would forget that there is a keyboard on the KVM, not just for the Alpha, but for everything. Still as nice as it is, it's even nicer to have multiple monitors (of course that requires you to have the desktop realestate and the monitors. Just stay away from the mechanical switches if you're going to be running anything modernish. They seem to ghost unless you've a very slow refresh. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 16:01:23 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <20010822142321.W23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 22, 2001 02:30:47 PM Message-ID: <200108222101.f7ML1Oc27741@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm not in that boat yet. My DEC docs and programming texts currently > take up only one of the two bookshelves. Attempts to enlarge the DEC docs > section are underway. Be afriad, be very afriad :^) Such attempts lead to major storage problems, but a wonderful reference library. I've got about one FULL bookcase with nothing but OpenVMS documentation with very little 'version duplication' (same book different version) in the bookcase, and I don't know how many shelves and boxes of OpenVMS doc's in storage. Have I mentioned I like OpenVMS :^) Then there are all the PDP-* doc's.... Zane From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 22 16:25:26 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: <3B839248.24612.4223B8D@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Well I must admit to finding some hilarious moments in this current thread > and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of > censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT > messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried Since I got this latest off-topic mess started by commenting on how Bush helped Clinton ruin the economy, and, in particular, hurt workers in the computer field, for whom jobs are really drying up in some areas, I'll help to fix the OT problem: I'll start a classiccmp-ot mailing list, unless anyone else wants to. Of course, giving this more thought, it's all those people who listened to Bush about the economy being bad, and cut spending and hiring as a result, who deserve as much blame. I guess one could call it the Chicken Little syndrome, only something really did begin to fall eventually. Anyway, this way, anyone who wants to view off-topic postings can simply reply to classiccmp-ot with anything off-topic resulting from replies to the classiccmp list. How's that sound? Then, Jay can just delete, or divert to classiccmp-ot, any OT messages that slip through to that list, and everyone can be spared unwanted OT messages. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Aug 22 16:25:24 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 05:25:26PM -0400 References: <3B839248.24612.4223B8D@localhost> Message-ID: <20010822162524.A6852371@uiuc.edu> Sounds like a very good solution to me. just please don't sign me up for the OT list ;-) R. D. Davis said: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Well I must admit to finding some hilarious moments in this current thread > > and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of > > censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT > > messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried > > Since I got this latest off-topic mess started by commenting on how > Bush helped Clinton ruin the economy, and, in particular, hurt workers > in the computer field, for whom jobs are really drying up in some > areas, I'll help to fix the OT problem: I'll start a classiccmp-ot > mailing list, unless anyone else wants to. > > Of course, giving this more thought, it's all those people who > listened to Bush about the economy being bad, and cut spending and > hiring as a result, who deserve as much blame. I guess one could call > it the Chicken Little syndrome, only something really did begin to > fall eventually. > > Anyway, this way, anyone who wants to view off-topic postings can > simply reply to classiccmp-ot with anything off-topic resulting from > replies to the classiccmp list. How's that sound? Then, Jay can just > delete, or divert to classiccmp-ot, any OT messages that slip through > to that list, and everyone can be spared unwanted OT messages. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 22 16:40:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: OT: Need Source for Sharp LCD Screens Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225694@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Hey Y'all... My Sharp PC-3040 notebook has suffered psychedelic screen death... likely cause being one too many episode of rough handling. Does anyone know of a source for these things? Regards, -doug q From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 16:46:39 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: <20010822162524.A6852371@uiuc.edu> from "Dan Wright" at Aug 22, 2001 04:25:24 PM Message-ID: <200108222146.f7MLkdF30129@shell1.aracnet.com> > Sounds like a very good solution to me. just please don't sign me up for the > OT list ;-) Logically membership would occur automatically as punishment for going OT :^) Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 22 17:07:46 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <20010822162524.A6852371@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Alternately, if I call Sun and give them the serial number of the machine, can they provide me with it's original MAC address? Thanks for your time. g. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 22 16:58:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Who reads their email the most Classically? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225695@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > "Curt Vendel" wrote: > > Is anyone running any internet connected lynx servers with dialup > > capability??? I've wanted to do this myself as many older Atari 8-bit > > groups would like access for email and newsgroup reading to stay connected > > with the online Atari communities. > > They're called "shell accounts". Yes, they exist as commercial > offerings. For example, Panix in NYC (http://www.panix.com/) and a2i > communications in the San Francisco Bay Area (http://www.rahul.net/). And IgLou (Internet Gateway of Louisville) in Louisville, KY metro area, Cincinnati metro area, Lexington Ky, and Memphis, TN. How they missed Nashville I've yet to figure out... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 22 17:03:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225696@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Fairly early examples are: > > 2/70 TEC inc. model 410/415, 420/425, 430/435 > > 4/70 Applied Digital Data Systems (ADDS) Consul 920 My old friend Ray Borrill's first company... > 5/70 Univac Uniscope 100 > > 10/70 Hazeltine 2000 Ah, one of my favorites, used magnetic core for the memory; however, it would usually lose a byte or two on either powering down or back on again... -dq From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Aug 22 17:06:17 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: <003d01c12b21$0d662e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <012a01c12b56$ab6fd7a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> People propably will become extremely creative in dreaming up insults and ranting topics. These will subsequently have to be filtered. Filter updates will then become a weekly event. Maybe McAfee can do that for us. They already do it for virus-signatures ;) I basically believe in people's own responsability. Having a gadget do it for them will actually make them inclined to act less responsable. Periodically stating the rules -clearly- would certainly help. I for one have never seen the classic.comp FAQ and I've been on the list for over a year. Everybody will make minor offenses once a while but I would endorse the removal from the list of those who repeatedly produce foul language, bigotries or extreme (fringe) politics. It's also obvious that thimble- or car- collection rants should go elsewhere. As to the use of weird idiom, local U.S. news topics and sometimes bizar acronyms, bear in mind that a lot of the list members are not U.S. natives and sometimes simply do not understand fragment of rants. Allthough I sometimes think that thats my luck anyway, since I simply don't wanna know ;) Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 5:42 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > This all makes sense. The only problem is it makes lots of work for the list > owner. > > I'd suggest one alternative that would help with that ... use a list of > disqualifying terms, beginning with the various "deletable expletives" that > occasionally appear in peoples posts/rants once they get fired up. Reject such > posts from the list and, instead, redirect them back to the originator together > with an exhortation to rephrase. That can be accomplished automatically, hence, > without burdening the list owner to do it all. > > While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic of > at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT threads. > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Aug 22 17:16:11 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM ....... -- NO HTML please! -- Message-ID: <015001c12b58$0d4dbf40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> One of the rules that would make sense to me would be that people would stick to plain text mail, rather than fancy large letters etc. NO HTML PLEASE (so of us can't even read it !) As an example I've recoded the offending posting ..... Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 6:51 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation Hear, hear!!!! I too have taken to scanning the top line of each message and end up basically deleting them with the decision made in about .2 seconds. I used to read everything but there is just too much garbage to do that anymore with my limited time. I do not favor moderation, but I do favor responsible posting. Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Jay: > > I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea. > There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: > > - off topic volume is way too high > - we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is > obviously intended to offend > - subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when > the topic has drifted > > Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them > on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of > the problem posts. > > I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am > subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least > glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for > messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the > rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have > crowded me out of full participation in the list. > > On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and > has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone > comes up with a question. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117, USA > Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 17:24:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: SS1 ethernet MAC address... (Gene Buckle) References: <20010822162524.A6852371@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <15236.12588.154752.998245@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 22, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's > trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to > FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the > first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me > choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Alternately, if I call Real issues? No. I do it all the time. > Sun and give them the serial number of the machine, can they provide me > with it's original MAC address? Probably not...but I wouldn't bother in any case. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 22 17:29:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225697@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >> You still don't get it. Demos have no marketing relevance whatsoever. They're > >> done just for the fun of it, and the prestige. They don't fulfill any needs > >> and don't claim to do it. I don't even see why I'm trying to explain to > >> you, you don't even seem to read what I write. > > >No, I trying very hard to grok this. Is this in the United States? > > I don't know, but I haven't seen any USA demos. You'll have to ask someone > from the NTSC world. > > >What part of the country? It doesn't happen around here (Louisville, > >KY metro area), I'd have heard of it. Given the Internet, I suppose > >my world shouldn't be limited to a 150-mile radius, but in a way, it > >is. > > There are parties in all of Scandinavia each year, as well as Poland and > France. Don't know about the scene beyond there. Ok... what was throwing me for a loop here, was that you seemed surprised that I was unaware of them, but they turn out to be something we don't have around here, so my absence of familiarity shouldn't be such a surprise... Regards, -dq From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 22 17:48:42 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108222248.AAA12503@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 22 Aug, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's > trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to > FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. It is even trivial to replace the dead battery inside the chip, if you know where and how to open it... > Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the > first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me > choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Just use random bytes. That is what I did. But of course be sure that there is no other machine on your network with that value... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Aug 22 17:51:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225698@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > No, I disagree. Leanring programming is not the same as learning a > programming language (the latter is much easier, even for a beginner). > You should learn to think about the problem long before you ever write a > single line of code. I'll take this even one step further... learning programming isn't learning how to construct applications. They didn't teach how to construct applications when I was in school; and now, with RAD/IDE and class libraries/frameworks, most people never learn. Since constructing applications is (generally) platform-dependent, it might never have been/be appropriate to cover in a college course. Fortunately, my career path put me in the position of maintaining systems constructed (or *not* constructed) by others. I found that I learned how to conceive a large system and implement it by factoring by immersing myself in a previous system that someone else wrote, and while immersing myself, watching out for bad habits to be avoided. Regards, -dq From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 17:56:39 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 22, 2001 01:01:37 PM Message-ID: <200108222256.SAA23382@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Gene Buckle once stated: > > I thought that key sequence was only used for the OmniView SE 2 port > KVM. The 4 port OmniView I have uses CTRL-SHIFT-ALT + console # + ENTER > to change consoles. I have the Belkin Onmiview Pro-8 (I think---there's too much equipment in the way for me to actually read the front of the unit 8-) and it uses Scroll-lock twice, then unit number (0-7) then port number (0-7). The Belkins can be chained together, but since I only have one, it's unit 0 (so for instance, my primary Linux system is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-1, my gateway/firewall is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-2 and for some inexplicable reason, the Windows box is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-5 (I only have three systems hooked up to it now)). At my previous job, I had two systems on my desk and a dual port KVM that used Ctrl-Ctrl to switch between the two. I don't remember who made that unit though. -spc (Liked the Ctrl-Ctrl sequence, but can live with the Scroll-lock sequence ... ) From djenner at earthlink.net Wed Aug 22 18:00:57 2001 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: PC11 & 11/20 Questions References: <20010822144113.D23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B8439A9.E5445E1F@earthlink.net> The PDP-11/20 I had 25-30 years ago was easy to work on IN the rack. You pulled it out on the slides and you could open the "bottom" of the chasis to work on the backplane. Or, you pulled it out on the slides AND FLIPPED IT OVER 180 DEGREES and opened the "top" to access the modules. Needless to say, it had to be in a really stable rack. Dave "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > Well, I've now acquired a PC05 high-speed paper tape reader/punch for > the PDP-11/20 I'm currently restoring. I still lack the PC11 board, > though. Megan's list says the following: > > M781 PC11 U PC11 control board for KA11 > > M7810 PC11 U Paper tape reader/punch controller > > Do I *have* to use the M781 version, or can I also use the M7810 if it's > all that I can find? What is the actual difference between the two > boards? > > Next: why were the backplane modules mounted at the top of the BA11, wire > wrap up, in the 11/20? It's easy to flip the thing over while it's not in > a rack, but when it's in a rack... > > Some trivia: the two partial 11/20's from which this one is being built > have serial numbers 786 and 1102. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net <--- NOTE CHANGE OF EMAIL ADDRESS! From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 18:12:26 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <15236.12588.154752.998245@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 22, 2001 06:24:44 PM Message-ID: <200108222312.TAA23409@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > > On August 22, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's > > trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to > > FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the > > first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me > > choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Alternately, if I call > > Real issues? No. I do it all the time. Just make sure you don't duplicate MAC addresses. That's the only real issue. Oh, and if you get more Suns, make sure you check their MAC addresses for possible conflicts. Alternatively, you CAN assign your own MAC addresses. MAC addresses have the following structure: +------------ Vendor ID | -------------+-------------- [********][********][********][********][********][********] ^^ -------------+-------------- || | || +--- assigned by vendor || |+----------- Group/Individual bit (used for multicast) | +------------ Global/Local bit (0 - vendor ID, 1 - locally assigned) As long as the Global/Local bit is set, you can use any values you want for the MAC address (again, as long as they don't conflict). -spc (This is Ethernet---it's older than 10 years---it's on topic 8-) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 22 18:44:49 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? Message-ID: <007201c12b65$ba474a10$0e749a8d@ajp166> From: Rich Beaudry >I would like to ask if any of you know of an existing, available, commercial >switching power supply that could be used to power an S-100 computer? WHY???? The bus voltages for S100 are UNREGULATED. >I realize I could get a +5V and +/- 12V supply, and just remove the >regulation circuitry on the cards, but given the amount of them that I have, >that gets very labor-intensive, and I'd rather not have to hack out parts of >these cards... Only if its an old LINEAR supply as SMPS designs mostly will not dot it. The S100 power supply is terminally simple. Three transformers {8,16, 16 V AC}, three bridge rectifiers and three caps... thats all folks. FYI there were "improved" S100 supplies that did some preregulation using CVCs or transistors but they are not essential. Allison From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 17:43:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Language disco In-Reply-To: <200108221735.NAA01259@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Even FoxPro can loosely be considered a computer language... > > Bryan > I don't understand all this negative talk about FoxPro. FoxPro is a powerful and functional 4GL. With the SQL engine that was added, it became even more useful. I rather enjoyed developing applications in FoxPro. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 17:44:56 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <007801c12b35$3a7fce40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You notice how some "foo's" can't keep from trolling? Was that a troll, Dick? Hey, you know how a "dick" was like a private eye back in your day? Times have changed. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 22 16:15:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: Adrian Vickers "Re: CBM 8032 SK" (Aug 22, 9:58) References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <10108222215.ZM17658@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 22, 9:58, Adrian Vickers wrote: > At 11:39 pm 21/08/2001 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532 > >EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have > >dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago). I checked the pinouts -- the EPROMs do need to be TMS2532. Ordinary 2732 EPROMs won't do (the chip select and A11 address line are in the wrong places). > I've already got the ROM dumps (they are available on funet), what I don't > have is the means to burn EPROMs. Still, that's fixable - Maplin do EPROM > burners. If you get stuck, I can burn them for you, if you send me blanks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 22 16:22:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: James Carter "Re: Room for Collections" (Aug 22, 13:29) References: Message-ID: <10108222222.ZM17664@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 22, 13:29, James Carter wrote: > the two main obstacles to the collection are the space, it is a very > small room and there is barely room for a chair left, and the stairs, > which are steep and narrow. getting some of the heavier stuff up there > is, err, interesting, isn't it, pete? Yes, though I don't think "interesting" was quite what we said while we were moving the 3/160 :-) > my partner is very good about it all. i do try not to anagonise her too > much by keeping all the machine in one room.. mostly. She liked that NeXT on the dining room table, though :-) > i got her to agree > in principle to using a module from an sgi o2000 as a coffee table in > the living room though - quite impressive, i thought. Now all we need are those modules :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 22 16:27:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" "Re: TRS80 help needed" (Aug 22, 9:18) References: Message-ID: <10108222227.ZM17668@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 22, 9:18, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > BASF also made a 2/3 height floppy (could get 3 into a double bay). It > was the first 5.25" drive smaller than "full height" that I saw. It also > was the first one that I saw that had a D.O.A. failure rate of more than > 50%. The door on it was not very obvious - you push on the door and then > let it pop open. I recommend pushing on that door with a very large > mallet. I remember those -- the RML380Z used them. Canon also made a 2/3 drive -- a 40/80 switchable, and a rather better device than the BASF. I've got one here, with some extra switches so it can emulate the peculiarities of an RX50. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 17:54:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) In-Reply-To: <20010822135643.J23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Just some ideas... Enough ideas...we need to move on to implementation. (Although I must say, the off-topic posts have suddenly gone silent in light of the recent tough talk...) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 17:55:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010822141544.02f08880@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > At 09:42 AM 8/22/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic of > >at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT threads. > > Yeah, but does that filter out the messages where the moderator > is doing the swearing or insulting? :-) Just what is "foul" language? How can any spoken utterance be "foul"? That whole concept strikes me as being truly foul. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 22 19:04:26 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary) Message-ID: <007d01c12b67$d534aeb0$0e749a8d@ajp166> My $.02 or less. OT stuff has been interesting at time and sometimes way too far off topic. Too many mee tooo postings. Foul language, so what. It tends to label the user and may be archived somehwere to bit them later. As to politics; if the topic is how Alan Turning was treated while alive its on topic, maybe. If it what the {pick your non favorite) is doing today it's NOT classic and OFF TOPIC. In the end though,... when my mail from here exceeds seventy or more messages a day all usually deleted on sight it's time for me to consider exiting the list as it's no longer useful and far to much work to read and possibly post to. Right now I'm fairly maxed out and doing mail management for that many messages from one source with an added very high noise to signal suggests it's time to pull the plug. I think far to much has been said and the best, easiest and fastest solution is to simply stop replying to OT threads. If by chance a OT thread has some valid content copy it to a new on topic thread and get on with it. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 16:36:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerr - IT WORKS In-Reply-To: <10108220155.ZM16865@unknown.zmail.host> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 22, 1 00:55:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 674 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/f1b6ee95/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 17:37:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Plastic or Ceramic? In-Reply-To: <200108221222.NAA29821@ns.mgf.net> from "Ade Vickers" at Aug 22, 1 01:22:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/ae4edca9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 17:12:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010822094720.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 22, 1 09:47:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/df4c0ee8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 17:48:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: non HP RPN calculators (was: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for In-Reply-To: <00b101c12b07$ae898ca0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 22, 1 07:40:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3160 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/deca9868/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 17:58:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <009901c12b44$b5f9c4e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Would "Dick" be included in the list of expletives? On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, it's his list, so it's his choice. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Foust" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation > > > > At 09:42 AM 8/22/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic > of > > >at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT > threads. > > > > Yeah, but does that filter out the messages where the moderator > > is doing the swearing or insulting? :-) > > > > - John > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:03:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010822202449.00a15fd8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 22, 1 08:24:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/d0d6d500/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:08:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: PC11 & 11/20 Questions In-Reply-To: <20010822144113.D23278-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 22, 1 02:59:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/f622c9e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:28:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <008c01c12b44$85af1920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 22, 1 01:56:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/92affe2f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:35:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:40 2005 Subject: Curricula ... In-Reply-To: <3B833EDA.BC9E1598@magnaspeed.net> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Aug 22, 1 00:10:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1608 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/ddf3ef03/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 18:00:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hans Franke's trek continues In-Reply-To: <20010822202614.91201.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I did manage to get a couple of pix of his "RV" (cargo trike with > attached pop-up tent)... > > Hans with gas tank: > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000514.JPG > > Ural closeup (sans tank): > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000515.JPG Good thing he's going to have to be pushing that thing over the Rockies when it breaks down. He's put on some pounds! Too many Radlers :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 18:02:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Observe how he manages to surreptitiously slip in more off-topic rantings while disguising it with a solution to his own very off-topic rantings. We have an idiot savant on our hands here. On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Well I must admit to finding some hilarious moments in this current thread > > and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of > > censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT > > messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried > > Since I got this latest off-topic mess started by commenting on how > Bush helped Clinton ruin the economy, and, in particular, hurt workers > in the computer field, for whom jobs are really drying up in some > areas, I'll help to fix the OT problem: I'll start a classiccmp-ot > mailing list, unless anyone else wants to. > > Of course, giving this more thought, it's all those people who > listened to Bush about the economy being bad, and cut spending and > hiring as a result, who deserve as much blame. I guess one could call > it the Chicken Little syndrome, only something really did begin to > fall eventually. > > Anyway, this way, anyone who wants to view off-topic postings can > simply reply to classiccmp-ot with anything off-topic resulting from > replies to the classiccmp list. How's that sound? Then, Jay can just > delete, or divert to classiccmp-ot, any OT messages that slip through > to that list, and everyone can be spared unwanted OT messages. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 18:04:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225696@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Fairly early examples are: > > > > 2/70 TEC inc. model 410/415, 420/425, 430/435 > > > > 4/70 Applied Digital Data Systems (ADDS) Consul 920 > > My old friend Ray Borrill's first company... Hey, he never told me that! Very cool. > > 5/70 Univac Uniscope 100 > > > > 10/70 Hazeltine 2000 > > Ah, one of my favorites, used magnetic core for the memory; > however, it would usually lose a byte or two on either > powering down or back on again... My oldest, if we do count the Imlac as a terminal (I call it a computer), would be that. I know I have quite a few from the very early 70s. When did the Hazeltine 1500 come in? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:46:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 22, 1 03:07:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1059 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/0c7b68a2/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 22 18:08:45 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <012a01c12b56$ab6fd7a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > I basically believe in people's own responsability. Having a gadget do > it for them will actually make them inclined to act less responsable. Well, we leave everyone to their own devices today and that obviously doesn't work (and never has throughout the history of this list...this is a topic we keep having to re-visit) so we need something in place. I think it will actually HELP people stay on topic because once they realize their message has been swatted they'll start to learn. > Periodically stating the rules -clearly- would certainly help. I for > one have never seen the classic.comp FAQ and I've been on the list for > over a year. It's right there, on the ClassicCmp website: http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000515.JPG But what part of CLASSIC COMPUTERS MAILING LIST should encourage people to discuss anything but!?!? > Everybody will make minor offenses once a while but I would endorse > the removal from the list of those who repeatedly produce foul > language, bigotries or extreme (fringe) politics. It's also obvious > that thimble- or car- collection rants should go elsewhere. Oh dear, there's that "foul language" phrase again. With the exception of that, I agree (although I must say I don't think we've ever encountered any bigotry...I would certainly have some choice words for any of that type of noise). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 18:42:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: <20010821163334.A6694639@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <437.635T500T424353optimus@canit.se> Dan Wright skrev: >Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any cdrom drive that supports a >512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system) >will boot Suns and let you install SunOS/Solaris. Older NECs (maybe newer >ones too, I haven't used any) and Plextor drives of any vintage work great >for this. And SCSI Compaqs might, too. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 18:43:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <311.635T2050T435399optimus@canit.se> Gene Buckle skrev: >After I've got the SS1 set up the way I need it (firewall), I think I'm >going to get a SS10 machine I can load up with RAM & CPU and use that for >other misc. amusements. Why would a firewall need a framebuffer, mouse and keyboard? Or a CD for that matter... -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 19:14:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010822202449.00a15fd8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <948.635T2050T745899optimus@canit.se> Adrian Vickers skrev: >>It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life >into >>what was a "dear, departed" computer from yesteryear. >Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM >chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who >already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel >processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's >nice and simple. I can't remember whether I posted the link to the DIY ZX81, Jupiter ACE and UK101 projects a while ago or whether that was on another list. Oh well, here they are again: Or not... Well, there must be links at either http://www.home-micros.freeserve.co.uk/zx80/zx80.html or http://www.breezer.demon.co.uk/spec/tech/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 19:28:45 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <001701c12ac1$79e52680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <974.635T2250T886203optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >I certainly don't know the seller, but, if you'll send me details, I'll >happily email the guy on your behalf and ask him that very question to the >extent that my somewhat inadequate technical German will allow. Perhaps >Emanuel Stiebler could be persuaded to do that, as he probably knows what to >call the main board, which I'd have to ask someone else. "Hauptplatine". >When I left Germany for the last time, in '69, PCB's were not high on my list >of discussion topics. Things have changed, of course, but my vocabulary in >German has not. Pocket German computer dictionary for anglophones: Memory - Speicher Hard disk - Festplatte Disk drive - Laufwerk Board - Karte, Platine Case - Geh?use Datacomms - DF? Screen - Bildschirm Printer - Drucker (Choose between Nadel-, Tintenstrahl- and Laser-) Keyboard - Tastatur OS - Betriebssystem File - Datei Interface - Schnittstelle Any useful words I've forgotten? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 19:37:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1351.635T400T973813optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >> >> You mean you teach them Intel assembler? >> >Yes >> >Not because it's "good", but because it's needed. (I teach at a community >> >college, where we are teaching "useful" skills, not the abstractions of >> >the university.) >On 21 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> I didn't know Intel was needed. If that is the case, it must be the fault >> of community colleges (whatever that is). >You are familiar with how many computers there are with Intel 80x86 family >processors, and you are familiar with the software that is being run. >Are you saying that there ISN'T a need to imporove the quality of that >software? I've been both told and taught that assembly is not used anymore on the Intel platform, at least not Intel-based computers, and that modern compilers do the job much better anyway. >> I just love it when people just use what they're familiar with, instead of >> actually investigating the alternatives. That's one reason why computing is >> so tedious today. >If you can get a quorum for a class at this school in some other processor >family and meet the state legal requirements, then I will personally break >enough administrator arms to get you hired to teach it. Quid pro quorum? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 19:51:26 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108220422.VAA10638@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <202.635T1300T1115237optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise >left for the reader). :-) Stupid character-based screen modes... *mumble* -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 19:57:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010821214807.0262af60@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <297.635T1500T1174793optimus@canit.se> Gordon C. Zaft skrev: > Somehow I suspect this code won't run on my PPC boards. > Linux != x86. Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 22 18:31:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <000d01c12a89$44db6680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <328.635T2950T316367optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >Even today's compilers demand several hundred Kbytes for a simple >"hello-world" program on one of today's machines, while it took well fewer >than 256 bytes of executable code to print a short text string on a Z-80 or >6502. Tell me you're just making that up. Prove it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 22 19:24:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <10108222227.ZM17668@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I remember those -- the RML380Z used them. Canon also made a 2/3 drive -- > a 40/80 switchable, and a rather better device than the BASF. I've got one > here, with some extra switches so it can emulate the peculiarities of an > RX50. Pete, were those the ones that also had a `touch latch' door on them? Some of the Otrona Attache's used such drives, but I had no idea that they were 40/80 switchable! Do you have any jumper information for them? I think that I still have a half dozen buried around here somewhere. - don > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 19:47:39 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010822202449.00a15fd8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010823014739.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> At 12:03 am 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> This reminds me, a place I used to work at used HP oscilloscopes, c/w >> IEEE-488 bus. I don't know if it'd be possible to use a CBM8032 hooked to >> an oscilloscope to diagnose a faulty 8032; but it has a nice symmetry about >> it :) > >Sure, it's been done (well, using IEEE-488 controlled logic analysers >rather than 'scopes, and probably machines other than PETs). It is >certainly possible to have one computer control a logic analyser which >debugs another machine of the same type. Back in a past life, I worked on a program (written by a very clever chap with more PhD's than I've had hot dinners) which ran on a HP computer (I forget the model) hooked to a HP 'scope (presumably by IEEE-488) - and determined the location of flaws in 33KV electricity cables. I was tasked with redesigning the front end to this program, which was written entirely in HP BASIC(!)... It was fun, apart from the fact I spent 4 of the 6 weeks I was doing this sat in a Faraday cage while experiments to do with HV went on around me... Mind you, the other 2 weeks made up for it - on-site on a biscuit factory testing cables :) > >> >It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life > >Actually, FWIW, this is the sort of learning that I consider fun... Me too. There's nothing quite like "hands-on" learning, much more interesting than straight lectures or even student lab work. >> into >> >what was a "dear, departed" computer from yesteryear. >> > >> >> Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM >> chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who >> already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel >> processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's >> nice and simple. >> >> I haven't a clue how the bus works though.... > >Might I recomend the book 'The student manual for the Art of Electronics' >(or some similar title), 2nd edition, by Hayes and Horowitz. You can: Amazon is my friend... It doesn't say which edition it is, but I assume it's the newest one. >The last few >sections get you to build a 68008-based computer from scratch. A QL? :) > I can't >remember what chip the first edition used (8085? Z80?). The related book >'The Art of Electronics' is, of course, well worth reading as well... I shall order that too, I think. There's also an "Art of Electronics: Standard Manual", does anyone have any knowledge of that one? Thanks! Any more book recommendations BTW? Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 22 19:48:20 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) References: Message-ID: <005901c12b6d$4e6a3f20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Observe how he manages to surreptitiously slip in more > off-topic rantings while disguising it with a solution to his > own very off-topic rantings. I will (observe) some time after I see that Sellam has learned to stop swearing. John A. From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Aug 22 20:11:33 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <297.635T1500T1174793optimus@canit.se> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010821214807.0262af60@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822181042.00b91340@mail.azstarnet.com> At 01:57 AM 8/23/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Gordon C. Zaft skrev: > > > Somehow I suspect this code won't run on my PPC boards. > > > Linux != x86. > >Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. Au contraire! In my work we are finding a lot of interest in running Linux on PPC embedded boards such as the IBM 405 (aka "walnut"). There's some interest in ARM too. Gordon From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 20:07:40 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010822094720.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010823020740.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> At 11:12 pm 22/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a >> >> hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides, >> > >> >Well, this is good practice, then :-) >> >> True :) It does seem a shame to practice on such a rare piece of kit, >> somehow... > >Err, are PETs rare? They seem pretty common compared to the stuff I >learnt computer repair on (Philips P850). I've never thought of the >8032SK as being a particularly rare PET either (It was the first CBM I >obtained, which might affect my judgement here). It depends which one... I've not seen many 8032SKs about (I still curse the day I had to hand the working one I was using back to its rightful owner), probably because they're either rotting away forgotten in lofts, or collecters who have them won't give away/sell them. I don't blame them, the 8032SK is an inspirational piece of design, even now. Well, until you look under the cover and see that it's a right hotch-potch... >> >> Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either >> > >> >What test equipment do you have? >> >> Erm, a multimeter... > >Analoge or Digital (I use both, FWIW, as each type has its advantages). Digital. I used to have an analogue, but it went missing many years ago. >Any ideas as to the input resistance (or sensitivity), just in case it's >seriously loading the signals. 'fraid not. I've got the spec sheet for it, but it's up at my Liverpool pad, and thus inaccessible for the next couple of weeks. >> I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap... > >You can get _good_ second-hand 'scopes for less than a poor quality new >one. Stewarts of Reading often have Tektronix 'scopes for a few hundred >pounds (something like a 465 or a low-end 7000). Which would you recommend? I'd pay ?200-?300 for something that's going to do what I need, which is borderline new one (so long as I don't go for the one and only model Maplins still do). I *may* be able to wheedle one out of EATL (the place I briefly worked at so many years ago), I'll have to tickle my contacts... >An older, vavled, Tektronix 500-seires is another possibility (it's what >I use), but be warned that collecting and repairing classic 'scopes can >be as adictive as collecting classic computers, and you'll end up needing >a 'scope to fix the 'scope, and so on ;-) LOL. I'm running out of space - fast - as it is; no way do I need yet more bulky gear! >I notice you're in the UK, just out of curiousity where are you (I'm in >SW London), just in case there's somebody near who could at least do a >few tests for you. Just up the road from Tower Bridge (E1) mostly; when I'm not down here, I'm up near Liverpool. At the moment, most of my collection is here with me in my 18'x12' flat; I shall be moving a good chunk of it up north soon, however, it's getting to the point where I can't move in here! >> >Start by checking all the power rails (at the pins of the chips) with a >> >voltmeter. Get the PSU working first. >> >> Done & tested. Power is OK. > >Excellent. You'd be amazed how many problems are PSU-related, though... I can imagine. 12v will fry a TTL chip, won't it? All the working PETs I've got have some screen wobble, so it's possible that the PSUs are getting borderline with age, unless that's what they always did - except through my rose-tinted retrospecs. > >> >Then use a 'scope, logic probe or logic analyser (yes, OK, I have >> >somewhat fancy test gear) to check the clock input to the 6502. >> >> Actually, I used the voltmeter for that; it reads approx half the normal >> input voltage, which *suggests* that its OK. > >Did you discover that trick yourself? If some, I am fairly impressed. Much as I would like to take credit, I can't. A chap on the cbm-hackers mailing list suggested it. >I've used it many times to check clock signals, etc when all I had was a >multimeter.... This was before I discovered the frequency measurement available on my multimeter. However, it looks like it's got a maximum of 99.9Hz, which will not be suitable :( >> >If >> >missing, fix the clock circuit. Check the reset pin while you're at it, >> >to ensure the machine is not stuck in the reset state. Without good >> >power, clock, and reset, the machine is not going to do a lot. >> >> Reset is OK too, so theoretically (and assuming the clock really is >> ticking, and not just stuck at a constant half voltage) the CPU is getting >> what it'll need. > >OK... Is RDY mostly high at the CPU (or could this darn thing be stuck in >a wait state)? IIRC, I checked that accidentally (got the wrong pin when checking the voltage), and it seemed to be stable at 5.23v; depending on how often it's supposed to drop, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. >> >Then use the same instrument(s) to check the phi2 (bus clock output) of >> >the 6502. And look for activity on the address/data buses. >> >> The clock outputs register lower voltages than the clock in (0.93v and >> 0.75v). However, that tells me pretty much bugger all, I will need some >> better kit to really examine those. > >Those sound low. I'd expect them to be 50% duty cycle square waves with a >5V or so amplitude. But as you say, you need a 'scope to see what is >really going on. I'll give Stewarts a call tomorrow, if I remember. Are they likely to have logic probes as well? >> >When you've got this far, it's then time to see just what ROM(s) are >> >being selected (logic probe, etc on the CS/ pins) and thus what the CPU >> >is doing. Unless, of course you have a logic analyser that can look at >> >all 16 address lines at once. >> >> This is realms of the unknown for me - I shall have to go look up logic >> probes/logic analysers... I assume the same sort of checks can be done with >> most chips, e.g. RAM, ULAs and so forth. > >Be warned a new logic analyser is an expensive instrument, and is likely >to be way out of your price range. But a lot of older logic analysers, >which 'only' go up to 100MHz are available second-hand. While they're not >all that useful for many modern chips (I will not say 'useless', becuase >I've used them to debug such systems), they are idea for 99% of classic >computers. You might find one for \pounds 50.00 or less if you hunt >around (say at radio rallies). Something like a Gould K100D would be >ideal, I think. Maplin do a single-point probe for about ?50; Farnells do a couple more, but their full logic analyser is about ?500 (and looks suspiciously like an oscilloscope with the knobs replaced with a keypad). I'm not out to spend a grand on test kit *just* yet; especially not if there's some good s/h gear around. >You need a 'scope as well -- a logic analyser is only useful if the >signals are known to be logic-level signals. Did anyone ever do a combined logic-analyser/'scope? > >IIRC, the monitor needs drive signals from the 6845 on the mainboard to >get the horizontal output stage running (and this whistling). So if there >is a video section fault, you won't get any display or whistle. I would >ignore the monitor problem for the moment and debug the logic side... > That makes sense. I'd guess that the monitor side is mostly analogue anyway? Thanks - you've definitely got me hooked onto this electronics lark. Mind you, that wasn't precisely difficult, I nearly went that way at school, but side-tracked into software instead. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 22 20:09:23 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Plastic or Ceramic? In-Reply-To: References: <200108221222.NAA29821@ns.mgf.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010823020923.00a99368@192.168.1.2> At 11:37 pm 22/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> However, both DIL variants are available in in plastic or ceramic carriers >> - what is the advantage/disadvantage of either of those? > >Ceramic packages generally work over a larger temperature range, and may >be more reliable under harsh conditions. Plastic pacakges are cheaper. I thought it *may* be something like that. I notice the QL uses a ceramic MC68008, perhaps this meant they didn't need a heatsink on it. >For a PET, it doesn't matter which one you use IMHO. Probably not... I don't suppose a 1MHz chip (especially a big one like the 6502) is being driven hard enough to get seriously hot. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Aug 22 20:13:19 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: References: <20010821163334.A6694639@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822181219.00b95550@mail.azstarnet.com> At 03:24 PM 8/21/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for the info Dan. One of the list members made me a VERY good >offer on a sun drive in a 411 box so I'm going after that. :) I still >need to pick up a 10BaseT SBUS board as well as a cheap framebuffer and a >Sun -> PC display & mouse/keyboard adaptor so I can use my existing KVM. You could set it up pretty nicely without all that; you can install NetBSD (at least) from a boot floppy, use a serial console to get it installed and then just telnet/ssh to it in the future. No keyboard, no mouse, no framebuffer, no CDROM. From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Wed Aug 22 20:33:18 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. References: <297.635T1500T1174793optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B845D5E.1A3B01D6@bedrocksys.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Gordon C. Zaft skrev: > > > Linux != x86. > > Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look? Please excuse the OT response to the OT post containing yet another questionably reasoned opinion from Iggy... John -- John W. Linville Bedrock Systems From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 19:33:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <10108222227.ZM17668@unknown.zmail.host> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 22, 1 09:27:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/9fd857b2/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 22 20:24:28 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... References: <437.635T500T424353optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <006701c12b72$5aa7d860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I'm interested in the answer to this too. So I found this. Open: Sun compatible CD-ROM drives http://www.ebsinc.com/solaris/suncds.htm or Open: FAQ: CD-ROM Drives on Sun Hardware http://www.aball.de/~wpv/sun/faq/cdrom.html Then go to: Q4) What drives have been shown to work? Doth the people knowest iff a Sun CDROM FAQ is a sufficient matching list for DEC (it says it's 512 byte block too)? Me gots ta get one a dem. John A. excuse my language >Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any cdrom drive that supports a >512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system) >will boot Suns... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 20:13:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010823014739.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 23, 1 01:47:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/0ed04831/attachment.ksh From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 20:37:45 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <328.635T2950T316367optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 23, 2001 12:31:59 AM Message-ID: <200108230137.VAA23605@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >Even today's compilers demand several hundred Kbytes for a simple > >"hello-world" program on one of today's machines, while it took well fewer > >than 256 bytes of executable code to print a short text string on a Z-80 or > >6502. > > Tell me you're just making that up. Prove it. I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: -rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it would be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! -spc (Again, it depends upon how well the programmer uses the tools provided ... ) From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 22 20:42:11 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Disk format for Altair88DSK Message-ID: Hello, all: Now that I have the terminal support and Altair BASIC running in the Altair32 emulator, I need to get the diskette emulation working. To make sure that I'm getting this right, I need to get the docs on the 88DSK controller. I may have I posted this previously but now I'm at the point of the project where I could use them. Kind soles contact me off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 20:32:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010823020740.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 23, 1 02:07:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/f515a8c2/attachment.ksh From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 20:51:45 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <1351.635T400T973813optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 23, 2001 01:37:08 AM Message-ID: <200108230151.VAA23626@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > XenoSoft skrev: > > >You are familiar with how many computers there are with Intel 80x86 family > >processors, and you are familiar with the software that is being run. > >Are you saying that there ISN'T a need to imporove the quality of that > >software? > > I've been both told and taught that assembly is not used anymore on the Intel > platform, at least not Intel-based computers, and that modern compilers do > the job much better anyway. Assembly is still used, just very rarely, and usually for the lowest levels of the operating system. I just checked Linux 2.0.39 (which I run on all my servers) and each architecture branch has several assembly langauge files---mostly for configuring the CPU (on boot) and maybe context switching and memory copying routines). For small segments of code, an excellent assembly language programmer, familiar with the problem, can still beat a compiler, but over a longer range of code, or for most programmers, the compiler can still do a better job. -spc (But you get the most gains through algorithmic optimizations ...) From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 22 21:03:15 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Curricula ... In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Aug 23, 1 00:35:38 am" Message-ID: <200108230203.TAA07758@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > There is one (possibly unintentional) idea here that I disagree with. And > it's that learning starts when you go to university and stops when you > leave (the '4 year degree'). > > FWIW, I've never taken a programming course or an electronics course. I'm > self-taught in both. I don't consider myself to be a particularly good > programmer (I can program, my programs do the job, but in general they're > neither bulletproof nor elegant), but I know enough to understand the > reasons for choosing a particular language (and why one-language-fits-all > is a very bad idea!), and to understand bits of OS internals and so on. Me too. My degree is in linguistics, and soon an M.D. -- I got my previous job as a programmer because I was trainable, not because I had the degree. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my eyebrows are too close together." ----- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 22 21:05:44 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108230137.VAA23605@conman.org> References: <328.635T2950T316367optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010822190150.027a5920@209.185.79.193> At 09:37 PM 8/22/01 -0400, Sean wrote: > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with >egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: >-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello > Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it would >be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! So what's your point? How much memory do you have on this machine? What fraction of main memory is 932,131 bytes? Given dynamic linking, what fraction is 11,811 bytes? The PC tools live on big memory machines, there is no motivation to make them small. On my 68HC11 cross compilation system compiling hello.c gives me 210 bytes. If it gave me 11K bytes I'd throw it out because the most I can work with is 64K and 11K is too much to spend on printing a string. Here's another test (which is actually useful.) compare the difference between main() { printf("Hello World.\n"); } and main() { printf("Hello World.\n"); } or even more importantly main() {} What is the incremental cost of computation once you get into the game? --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 22 21:22:45 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010822141544.02f08880@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010822211656.02c29e90@pc> At 03:55 PM 8/22/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > >> At 09:42 AM 8/22/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >While that won't get 'em all, it will remove the foul language characteristic of >> >at least some of the rants, which tend to start the emotion-driven OT threads. >> >> Yeah, but does that filter out the messages where the moderator >> is doing the swearing or insulting? :-) > >Just what is "foul" language? How can any spoken utterance be "foul"? >That whole concept strikes me as being truly foul. I think that's the whole point here. You and I could be First Amendment absolutists, but it still means we could appreciate the benefits of a moderated list. Next thing you know, you'll be asking everyone to be civil and just get along. If someone asks for a certain level of polite behavior from others yet doesn't exhibit it themselves, it invites accusations of hypocrisy. - John From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Aug 22 21:25:24 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: [laroche@aracor.com: Surplus VAX] Message-ID: <20010822212522.F5412@mrbill.net> Free 11/750; contact him directly please. Bill ----- Forwarded message from Denis LaRoche ----- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:26:10 -0700 From: Denis LaRoche To: mrbill@decvax.org Subject: Surplus VAX Hello, Our company has a VAX 11/750 that we want to dispose of. We would like to give it to someone who could use it versus giving it to a scrap dealer. Along with the VAX is a Kennedy model 9401 tape drive with lots of tape, a CSPI minimap Plus 4 array processor and Ramtek video. We consider it a package deal. We are in need of disposing of the system quickly so a quick response will be appreciated. Thanks for the help. Denis LaRoche Purchasing Manager ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 22 21:41:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108221533.IAA29595@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Aug 22, 1 08:33:46 am" Message-ID: <200108230241.TAA11408@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Sorry, I should have been more specific. I've never written assembly > for PPC. How about showing us how it's done? I'd be interested in some PPC assembly samples too. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Aug 22 21:42:21 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Aug 22, 1 08:05:02 am" Message-ID: <200108230242.TAA07836@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Oh yeah? > > > > ; Commodore 64 and 128 > > * = $0400 > > .asc 'hello world' > > > > You don't even have to JMP to it. :-) > Cameron, if memory serves, isn't $FFD2 the kernal print routine? Correct, but you just load this 'routine' in -- look at the start address :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. ----------------- From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Aug 22 21:57:57 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: 'HELLO' on the ENIAC Message-ID: Someone, perhaps having a little more time (and a lot more skill) than I, might take up a little exercise I thought of while deleti^H^H^H^H^H perusing all the "hello world on modern platforms" thread: There exists a freeware ENIAC emulator for Wintel boxen... I have it on my old machine which is lying dormant in a closet here, so I don't have the URL handy, but Google is your friend in this instance. It might be retro-cool to try coding 'Hello World' on the ENIAC... one could recieve output on the TTY, or, if one were excruciatingly clever, cause it to scroll by on the Mercury Tank Register display CRT. Cheers John From ken at seefried.com Wed Aug 22 21:59:43 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: A Modest Proposal (NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: <200108221753.MAA02432@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108221753.MAA02432@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010823025943.5827.qmail@mail.seefried.com> It would be a shame to impose the burden of moderation, especially when you could probably remove 95% of the noise on the list with a few simple steps: 1) Ban discussion of eBay. Much like deciding who was the best athlete of all time, continued arguing is unlikely to change anyones opinion. ;-) 2) Remove our friendly (sic) neighborhood troll from the list. I don't think I need to name names, or initials for that matter. It has to be a troll. He has produced a remarkably consistent stream of unabashed ignorance, xenophobia, condescension, and complete contempt for anyone who has the audacity to hold a dissenting opinion, no matter how well founded, supported or sane the dissention might be. Such people are usually only found on lists devoted to abortion or gun control or similar wastelands. Clearly, this is someone getting their jollies from the negative reactions of others, like a flasher. He's had his fun. It's time to get back to computers. 3) Remind anyone else who decides to drag the list through their own intellectual cesspool, that trolling and personal vendettas are not what the list is for. There are plenty of other platforms if you need to grandstand. 4) Counsel the small handful of folks lacking the maturity to ignore the kind of chum the above (and, vastly less often, others) spills on the list that unless they curb their predilection for knee-jerk responses to any and all real or perceived insult, that they, too, can be removed. 5) Gently remind those who go off in the weeds to wander back to the herd. The vast majority will take the hint. That's just my opinion...I could be wrong... Ken From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 22 22:04:59 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010822190150.027a5920@209.185.79.193> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 22, 2001 07:05:44 PM Message-ID: <200108230305.XAA23718@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > At 09:37 PM 8/22/01 -0400, Sean wrote: > > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with > >egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: > >-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello > > Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it would > >be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! > > So what's your point? How much memory do you have on this machine? What > fraction of main memory is 932,131 bytes? Given dynamic linking, what > fraction is 11,811 bytes? Depending upon the system I run the executable on, 932,131 is anywhere from 1/4 to 1/32 of the memory (my laptop running Linux has 4M of RAM, while my main development machine has 32M RAM). I'll leave the 11,811 bytes as an exercise 8-) > Here's another test (which is actually useful.) compare the difference between > main() { > printf("Hello World.\n"); > } > > and > main() { > printf("Hello World.\n"); > } Is there a difference? > or even more importantly > main() {} > > What is the incremental cost of computation once you get into the game? I did #include int main(void) { return(EXIT_SUCCESS); } /* [1] */ A static link made a binary of 435,031 bytes, and dynamically linking is around 3k (using the default options). So that's the overhead (at least under RedHat 5.2). -spc (Still a bit large to me ... ) [1] The smallest ANSI-C conformant program. I can't stand K&R C 8-) From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 22 23:15:06 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Would "Dick" be included in the list of expletives? When making such a determination, one must take the following into consideration: It's been proven to be a much less offensive expletive now that the newer and more offensive expletive, "Sellam," has appeared on this list. ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at smart.net Wed Aug 22 23:23:44 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > We have an idiot savant on our hands here. Sellam, your attempts, such as the aforementioned quote, to brag and bring more attention to yourself again, by publicizing such attrocious things about yourself, do not speak well for you. Why do you persist in perpetuating the off-topic posting? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 23 00:04:44 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <012a01c12b56$ab6fd7a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20010822235902.P24341-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > I would endorse the removal from the list of those who repeatedly > produce ... bigotries or extreme (fringe) politics. Just the 'extreme' politics? What do we care about each other's political beliefs? We're here to discuss classic computing, not to punish nonconformists. Let's keep *all* of the politics external. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Aug 23 00:14:26 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <200108222312.TAA23409@conman.org>; from spc@conman.org on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 07:12:26PM -0400 References: <15236.12588.154752.998245@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200108222312.TAA23409@conman.org> Message-ID: <20010823001426.Q5412@mrbill.net> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 07:12:26PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (This is Ethernet---it's older than 10 years---it's on topic 8-) So is the SS1. came out in '89 if I remember/know correctly. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 23 00:49:35 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Culture Shock Message-ID: <8f.ecd7bbe.28b5f36f@aol.com> Hey Group -- Recently a post apperaed here wherein someone was wanting to give away a VAX 11/750. Since I like free stuff :>) but have no experience outside of microcomputers, I did a Google search, and this looks like an interesting machine, and a good intro to minis for a micro person. Especially appealing is the number of operating systems which it will run, and the variety of programming languages available for it. I have a spare room at the shop, so space is not a problem. I'd like to save this machine, but I have a couple of questions: It looks ablout 3.5 feet tall, and the specs put it at 180+ kilograms. How can it weigh that much? What's in it, lead? (yes, I know solder has lead in it , , ,) How much does the tape unit weigh? Another 180 kilos?? What is the total power consumption for the 11/750 and the tape unit? Am I crazy for wanting to rescue this critter, since I don't know the first thing about it? I'll probably break my back moving it and spend the next 10 years learning how to use it and collecting disability benefits at the same time. TIA, Glen 0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 23 00:55:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing References: <328.635T2950T316367optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <006d01c12b98$2b6139e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I just loaded up Visual C++ v6.-something as part of the latest development tool set for Windows, and a colleague who has already test-driven it, indicates that the first exercise, a "Hello World" thing, includes two runtime libraries, one that's 143KB in size and one that's !36KB in size. It may be possible to make things smaller, but this exercise apparently doesn't. regards, Richard Erlacher ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: Re: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >Even today's compilers demand several hundred Kbytes for a simple > >"hello-world" program on one of today's machines, while it took well fewer > >than 256 bytes of executable code to print a short text string on a Z-80 or > >6502. > > Tell me you're just making that up. Prove it. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 23 01:20:23 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Culture Shock In-Reply-To: <8f.ecd7bbe.28b5f36f@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010822231359.0254e160@209.185.79.193> At 01:49 AM 8/23/01 -0400, Glen wrote: >Hey Group -- > >Recently a post apperaed here wherein someone was wanting to give away a VAX >11/750. This would be a nice machine to save since it has an array processor (making it both a minicomputer and a wannabe supercomputer :-) It looks ablout 3.5 feet tall, and the specs put it at 180+ kilograms. How >can it weigh that much? What's in it, lead? (yes, I know solder has lead in >it , , ,) Yes, it can and does weigh that much. It has a lot of steel in it, steel weighs 500 lbs per cubic foot. >How much does the tape unit weigh? Another 180 kilos?? Not quite, probably less than 150Kg >What is the total power consumption for the 11/750 and the tape unit? You can run them on one wall outlet. >Am I crazy for wanting to rescue this critter, since I don't know the first >thing about it? I'll probably break my back moving it and spend the next 10 >years learning how to use it and collecting disability benefits at the same >time. Not crazy, lucky since you have the space. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Aug 23 01:43:05 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (geoffr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: <437.635T500T424353optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Many SCSI Toshibas can be set to0 512 byte blocks by cutting 2 traces on the back of the drive. I fyou are looking for a bare drive that is sun compatible, email me, I should have some spare full-high cdrom drives that came out of Ross Hyperstation's.... From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 23 01:42:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: Hans Franke's trek continues References: <20010822202614.91201.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B84A5D8.34CF0C6@internet1.net> Wow, that's quite a bike.... looks like a Junkyard Wars project :-) One think I notice right away, is the earls forks, with he very aggressive looking front tire! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ethan Dicks wrote: > > For those people who have been (or will be) part of Hans' trek across > the U.S. on his Ural, I can say that he has made it as far as > Columbus, OH. He did stay a few days here to fix a crack in his > gas tank and left for parts West this afternoon. I helped him > box up his H-8 and accessories, leaving him more room to collect > stuff as he makes his way to California. > > I did manage to get a couple of pix of his "RV" (cargo trike with > attached pop-up tent)... > > Hans with gas tank: > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000514.JPG > > Ural closeup (sans tank): > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pix/classiccmp/P1000515.JPG > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From hansp at aconit.org Thu Aug 23 03:53:30 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: 'HELLO' on the ENIAC References: Message-ID: <3B84C48A.60105@aconit.org> John Lawson wrote: > There exists a freeware ENIAC emulator for Wintel boxen... I have it on > my old machine which is lying dormant in a closet here, so I don't have > the URL handy, but Google is your friend in this instance. > It might be retro-cool to try coding 'Hello World' on the ENIAC... one > could recieve output on the TTY, or, if one were excruciatingly clever, > cause it to scroll by on the Mercury Tank Register display CRT. Are you sure you mean ENIAC? It had no mercury tanks. Also the ENIAC was not a true programmable computer. Perhaps you are thinking of EDSAC? An emulator for that can be found at http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~edsac/ -- HBP From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 23 02:23:42 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:41 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: TRS80 help needed" (Aug 22, 17:24) References: Message-ID: <10108230823.ZM18280@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 22, 17:24, Don Maslin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > I remember those -- the RML380Z used them. Canon also made a 2/3 drive -- > > a 40/80 switchable > Pete, were those the ones that also had a `touch latch' door on them? > Some of the Otrona Attache's used such drives, but I had no idea that > they were 40/80 switchable! Do you have any jumper information for > them? They actually made two or three models, so yours may not be switchable. I do have the jumper information somewhere, and I'll look for it this evening. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 23 03:46:37 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Culture Shock In-Reply-To: <8f.ecd7bbe.28b5f36f@aol.com> Message-ID: <200108230846.KAA14690@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 23 Aug, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Recently a post apperaed here wherein someone was wanting to give away a VAX > 11/750. That is a really nice VAX. Not that fast (0.65 VUPs / MIPS) but it is one of the more handy real VAXen. (Real means it is no MicroVAX or VAXstation). Only the VAX 11/730 is smaler. > Especially appealing is the number of > operating systems which it will run, You may join the TUHS/PUPS mailinglist, get a free UNIX source license and a copy of the TUHS/PUPS UNIX software archive. Then you are able to run some 4.xBSD VAX UNIX on your 11/750. See http://minnie.tuhs.org/TUHS/index.html Also, consider to join the NetBSD VAX mailinglist, even if you don't intend to run NetBSD on that machine. There are a lot of people on that list that can help you to get that machine to work. For VMS see: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html > It looks ablout 3.5 feet tall, and the specs put it at 180+ kilograms. How > can it weigh that much? It is made out of a lot, now old, iron. Have a look at http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/vax700.html#vax700:vax_11_750 and of course http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/hw/750faq.html > How much does the tape unit weigh? Another 180 kilos?? Depends on the tape unit. A TSV05, AKA chipher F880, is rather small and can be caried by one person. Some TU?? device with that vacuum stuff may be lager and heavier than the VAX. Don't forget the disks. Some RA8x are comon for the VAX11 series of minicomputers. A RA81 is 26.3 x 44.5 x 67.3 cm big (14" platters) and weights around 80kg - without the rack. > What is the total power consumption for the 11/750 and the tape unit? A friend is running a 11/750 with some TU tape and RA8x disks out of one or two 230V (germany) wall outlets. It is not that bad like a VAX 9000. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From marino13 at btinternet.com Thu Aug 23 03:47:18 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! Message-ID: <3B84C316.9A049520@btinternet.com> I just aquired an Apple II but havent got any software. Does anyone have any discs they could lend/copy for me (just thinking of old games, PD stuff, whatever), or know of a good source? Also I need some system discs desperately... again can anyone help me out on this? Finally, does anyone know a good source of 5 1/4" blank discs? Ta! Shaun From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Aug 23 04:02:29 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: 'HELLO' on the ENIAC In-Reply-To: <3B84C48A.60105@aconit.org> Message-ID: EDSAC EDSAC EDSAC EDSAC Thanks Hans... sorry, all... I hae to learn to post earlier in the day (night) Cheers John From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 23 04:29:50 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010823020740.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> At 02:32 am 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> >Err, are PETs rare? They seem pretty common compared to the stuff I=20 >> >learnt computer repair on (Philips P850). I've never thought of the=20 >> >8032SK as being a particularly rare PET either (It was the first CBM I=20 >> >obtained, which might affect my judgement here). >> >> It depends which one... I've not seen many 8032SKs about (I still curse t= >> he >> day I had to hand the working one I was using back to its rightful owner)= >> , >> probably because they're either rotting away forgotten in lofts, or >> collecters who have them won't give away/sell them. I don't blame them, t= >> he >> 8032SK is an inspirational piece of design, even now. Well, until you loo= >> k >> under the cover and see that it's a right hotch-potch... > >Actually, I think it's a stupid design. Erm, I was thinking more of the way it looks on the desk... >The 'separate keyboard' seems >nice until you move it away from the machine, whereupon the keyboard >cable unplugs itself from the DB25 on the main unit. I never found that to be a problem, although I mostly used it with the keyboard in it's looks-like-its-attached position; It would probably have been better with an IDC connector (ala the Osbourne). > The thing is just >too wide to fit on a shelf in a 19" rack. They're supposed to sit on desks, not racks... >And the wires to the monitor >are too short to easily open the case with the monitor still on top of >it. No, I don't like the design at all. > >I assume you realise it's a normal 8032 motherboard in there, rotated by >90 degrees and with cables connecting the user port and GPIB edge >connectors to the Amphenol Blue Ribbon connectors on the back. It is, >AFAIK the only PET not to need a special GPIB cable for the link between >the machine and the first peripheral. Internally it's a mess. The PSU is in a crazy position; the 240V supply line is too short and stretches dangerously if the unit is opened to 90degrees, the balance is all wrong, and yes - it's just an 8032 board rotated (although there are subtle differences between the -SK board and the regular board, although that may just be down to different revisions between the machines. The only reason it doesn't need a "special" PET-->IEEE cable is because it already has one internally... Useful, because I've plundered it to test the diskdrives I've now got with the regular 8032 (and they work nicely!). Shame they didn't bother to put the plastic keys in, so there's the possibility of putting it on upside down - luckily that didn't happen to me. Oh yes, the monitor signal & power cables go through a connector which floats in the middle of the machine - it looks like someone forgot about that until the last second... >> >> I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap... >> > >> >You can get _good_ second-hand 'scopes for less than a poor quality new=20 >> >one. Stewarts of Reading often have Tektronix 'scopes for a few hundred=20 >> >pounds (something like a 465 or a low-end 7000). >> >> Which would you recommend? I'd pay =A3200-=A3300 for something that's goi= > >Don't buy a new low-end 'scope (certainly not one of the Lucky Goldstar >or whatever that Maplin sells (I think the 'Lucky' part of that brand >name describes what you are if it works properly :-))). The Tekky 465 is >a small-ish portable instrument. The 7000 is larger, but it takes plug-in >modules, which means you can get (or could get) various special-purpose >plug-ins. That's not too useful unless you have some special applications >and _can get the right module_. I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at least; I may need fancy stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now. I'll go with the Tex 465 then, if I can get one, or I'll ask them which they recommend on a similar level. > >I would probably go for the 465 in your case. For me, I'd go for a 7000 >(my old, valved, 555 has plug-ins, and some of them (1GHz sampler, >spectrum analyeser, etc) are fun... > Hmm. Valves. There was a whole branch of electronics which finished (um, ceased to be mainstream, I should say) before I got started... >> >I notice you're in the UK, just out of curiousity where are you (I'm in=20 >> >SW London), just in case there's somebody near who could at least do a=20 >> >few tests for you.=20 >> >> Just up the road from Tower Bridge (E1) mostly; when I'm not down here, I= > >That's close enough to me (i.e. it's near a Tube station :-)) that it >won't take much persuading to convinve me to appear with a logic analyser >or similar if necessary. It's probably better if you do some more work on >your own (you'll learn more that way....) Agreed. If I don't get the basics learned first, I'd just end up a spare wheel... >> >Excellent. You'd be amazed how many problems are PSU-related, though... >> >> I can imagine. 12v will fry a TTL chip, won't it? All the working PETs I'= > >Very easily.... > >> ve >> got have some screen wobble, so it's possible that the PSUs are getting >> borderline with age, unless that's what they always did - except through = > >Sounds like the large capacitor(s) are drying up. Or on the models with >them separately mounted on the chassis, the connector linking them to the >mainboard has gone high-resistance (another common fault!). I'll check that. I had to remove the whole gubbins from my working 8032 when the mains filter exploded, but I didn't check any resistances/voltages there. All the connections have been un-made then re-made, so if the HR usually comes from mucky connectors, that's unlikely. If the cap is going, however, moving it around would have no effect. Is there any way to test for a drying cap? >> >OK... Is RDY mostly high at the CPU (or could this darn thing be stuck i= >> n=20 >> >a wait state)? >> >> IIRC, I checked that accidentally (got the wrong pin when checking the >> voltage), and it seemed to be stable at 5.23v; depending on how often it'= >> s >> supposed to drop, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. > >If it's high, the CPU will be running (or should be running). It's not >stuck low, and thus I think it's likely that this is not a problem... (it >would be a total coincidence if it pulsed low very briefly at just the >right time to start a wait state on every cycle...) Unfortunately, the CPU *is* kaput, but (as mentioned elsewhere) I'm not happy putting a spare (i.e. one from another machine) in until I'm totally sure the bad board isn't going to kill it. >> >> I'll give Stewarts a call tomorrow, if I remember. Are they likely to hav= >> e >> logic probes as well? > >They do sell other test gear (mostly second-hand). They often have logic >analysers (at various prices, not necessarily cheap :-(), dunno about >smaller stuff... No harm in asking... I may drive out on Saturday and have a look, if they're open. > >> >Be warned a new logic analyser is an expensive instrument, and is likely= >> =20 >> >to be way out of your price range. But a lot of older logic analysers,=20 >> >which 'only' go up to 100MHz are available second-hand. While they're no= >> t=20 >> >all that useful for many modern chips (I will not say 'useless', becuase= >> =20 >> >I've used them to debug such systems), they are idea for 99% of classic=20 >> >computers. You might find one for \pounds 50.00 or less if you hunt=20 >> >around (say at radio rallies). Something like a Gould K100D would be=20 >> >ideal, I think. >> >> Maplin do a single-point probe for about =A350; Farnells do a couple more= > >That sounds a little high. About \pounds 25.00 is more reasonable, I think. Maplin, innit. Not exactly the cheapest on the block... >> but their full logic analyser is about =A3500 (and looks suspiciously lik= >> e an >> oscilloscope with the knobs replaced with a keypad). I'm not out to spend= > >And rather different internal electronics.... :) > >> a >> grand on test kit *just* yet; especially not if there's some good s/h gea= > >No, I am not suprised.... GBP500 is reasonable, I'd say, so long as the kit is going to last a while and do most of the stuff I need of it. I can always sell it on later, of course, when/if I need to upgrade. >> >You need a 'scope as well -- a logic analyser is only useful if the=20 >> >signals are known to be logic-level signals.=20 >> >> Did anyone ever do a combined logic-analyser/'scope? > >Yes... Tektronix and HP both sold logic analyser plug-ins for some of >their scopes (the Tektronix 7D01 for the 7000-series scopes, and HP did >one for the 180-series scopes that I can't remember the number of, but >which I have the service manual for somewhere). That sounds ideal, but probably overkill for what I want - especially right now... > >Tektronix also did a portable logic analyser system (it had a gas plasma >display on top, and could also drive a VGA monitor IIRC) for which one of >the option boards was a digital sampling scope. It was NOT CHEAP, though... :( What about one of these software oscilloscopes? I think the only one I've seen was a picture on EPE's website, but there must be a few of them surely? Mind you, hardly a portable device if you need a pentium PC within reach... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 23 04:01:53 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <008c01c12b44$85af1920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822201726.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010823100153.00a99368@192.168.1.2> At 01:56 pm 22/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Hi, Adrian! Hi Richard! :) >If you're going to have "old" hardware, you're sooner or later going to have to >deal with DIY, since you can't hire out repairs of the sort you'll both want and >trust. OTOH, if you put forth a bit of effort, mostly in the form of study, and >invest as much as you can comfortably invest in test equipment and supplies, >you'll most generally be able to handle the repairs you need done. This is >especially true since you can get lots of help on this forum. Agreed - I think I've picked up more advice here in the last two days than either of the more focussed newsgroups, and even the cbm-hackers list (which is a bit on the quiet side). >Learning to operate an eprom programmer should be the least of your worries, not >because it's unimportant, but because it's easy. That makes sense. It's just that I've never used one before, so at this moment in time, I've not got any idea at all... >A big part of getting the appropriate equipment is learning enough to know >what's appropriate. Starting out small and simple is probably the best route. >Since we've established that you'll have to do no soldering to (1) replace the >EPROMs you lack, and (2) insert the CPU, you can probably breathe a sigh of >relief, in light of your apparent aversion to attempting such things at this >juncture. Perhaps that's just as well for now. Well... It's not that I *can't* solder, it's just that I don't seem to be very good at it for some reason. It may be that I've got a dodgy iron (I do need to get one with a much smaller tip if I'm going to start desoldering ICs), but a) The tip simply won't tin properly, b) It seems to take ages to warm anything up enough to get the solder flowing. For example, I must have spent 2 hours building a BBC 'B' monitor cable; and by the time the pin on the DIN plug got hot, it went a dodgy colour and the solder wouldn't flow onto it. I did eventually manage to get the cable going, but it was a hell of a struggle. It didn't help that I don't have a vice here, so I needed four hands at the time... >If you replace your missing CPU with one that's as old as the original, you'll >have little trouble. Back when the PET was built, there was only one type of >6502. That's the type you probably want. The CMOS versions were the ones that >came up with extra instructions, and, coincidentally, without the undocumented >ones that existed in the original. According to the datasheet (from Farnell) I was reading, the original didn't have a BRA instruction? That seems somewhat unlikely to me, but is it true? > >You might visit www.6502.org to get a bit more info about this. > >If you want, I'll mail you an old 1 MHz 6502, but, since it involves going to >some trouble, please be sure that you've covered the other bases, so to speak, >so the effort won't be in vain. In general, it might not be a bad idea to find >someone in your area who has a working version of what you've got under study, >just to see if you know what it looks like when it's working right. Moreover, a >momentary parts swap can be VERY revealing. Hmmm - I've tried that one way, which revealed the duff CPU (and fortunately didn't fry the working machine), but I'm very leery of putting good parts in a fried machine (for much the same reasons Tony gives, and unashamedly based on his advice). Thanks anyhow! I'm starting to really look forward to poking around on this board - maybe there's (no?) hope for me yet... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 23 04:11:12 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010823014739.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010823101112.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> At 02:13 am 23/08/2001 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: ^^^^^ Don't you ever sleep? :) >> Back in a past life, I worked on a program (written by a very clever chap >> with more PhD's than I've had hot dinners) which ran on a HP computer (I > >Since it's unusual to have more than 1 Ph.D. I guess it means you like >cold food :-) This place is unusual... It used to be the sole R&D unit for the entire Electricity industry, although since privatisation other places have muscled in to some extent. As a company, they hold thousands of patents, and to be an RO (research officer) you *have* to have a PhD; some people do have more... As someone without even a degree, I was something of an outsider, but then it was the first job I ever had, and I think they paid me the princely sum of ?10/week (travel expenses) for my troubles. It was mainly because I was fresh out of University (failed), and my Dad pushed me into it. It was a wise move though - I got my first proper paying job with a subcontractor company who were working on-site, and I've never looked back. >> >> >It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life >> > >> >Actually, FWIW, this is the sort of learning that I consider fun... >> >> Me too. There's nothing quite like "hands-on" learning, much more >> interesting than straight lectures or even student lab work. > >Yes. As I said a few days ago it's important to have some idea as to what >you are doing (randomly changing things will help nobody), but you do >need some real practical experience. Agreed. One thing is, last time I was seriously interested in electronics, I could barely afford a soldering iron, let alone the components, test gear, etc. >> >> Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM >> >> chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who >> >> already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel >> >> processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's >> >> nice and simple. >> >> >> >> I haven't a clue how the bus works though.... >> > >> >Might I recomend the book 'The student manual for the Art of Electronics' >> >(or some similar title), 2nd edition, by Hayes and Horowitz. >> >> You can: Amazon is my friend... It doesn't say which edition it is, but I >> assume it's the newest one. > >The authors are different for the 2 editions (I think the first is >Horowitz and Robinson, but I am not going to run upstairs to check ;-) >(yes, I have both editions, and both editions of 'The Art of Electronics >:-))). The picture on Amazon shows 2 authors, the listing shows 1 different..... A mystery which will probably not be resolved until next week... >> >> >The last few >> >sections get you to build a 68008-based computer from scratch. >> >> A QL? :) > >No, rather simpler than that. A 68008 + 256 bytes of RAM (IIRC) and a >hardware frontpanel (hex keyboard, which was supplied to students ready >made, but there is a schematic in the book) + TTL chips to load the RAM >independantly of the microprocessor. I couldn't see any 68000-series chips in either Farnell or Maplin (mind you, Maplin's IC section seems to have shrunk to a parody of its former self); can you recommend a chip supplier with a decent catalogue? >> > I can't >> >remember what chip the first edition used (8085? Z80?). The related book >> >'The Art of Electronics' is, of course, well worth reading as well... >> >> I shall order that too, I think. There's also an "Art of Electronics: >> Standard Manual", does anyone have any knowledge of that one? > >NEver heard of it. I wonder if 'standard' is a misprint for 'student' :-( I don't think so, but it's out of print anyway, so obviously not that popular... >> Thanks! Any more book recommendations BTW? > >Sure... Mick&Brick 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design' is a classic if >you're interested in microcoded CPU internals. It's not that easy to >find, though (well, I don't buy things on the internet, so it might be >easy to get there, I've never looked). I find that public libraries can usually find stuff even Amazon can't; maybe I should join one down here. I used to be a member at Chester, but I'm fairly sure that's lapsed by now. >You also should start collecting data books (or data sheets) on all the >chips you might be interested in. You'll need them for the CPU, any >peripheral chips you like, and so on. And of course a TTL databook is >essential (don't rely on things like the Maplin Catalogue, there are >plenty of chips not listed in there). There has to be a Semiconductor Bible out there - any ideas? Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Aug 23 04:58:36 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108230137.VAA23605@conman.org>; from spc@conman.org on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:37:45PM -0400 References: <328.635T2950T316367optimus@canit.se> <200108230137.VAA23605@conman.org> Message-ID: <20010823115836.A27538@frodo> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:37:45PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > > > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > > > >Even today's compilers demand several hundred Kbytes for a simple > > >"hello-world" program on one of today's machines, while it took well fewer > > >than 256 bytes of executable code to print a short text string on a Z-80 or > > >6502. > > > > Tell me you're just making that up. Prove it. > > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with > egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: > > -rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello > > Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it would > be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! IMHO thats comparing apples with oranges. First, it looks like you forgot to strip the binary. Second, statically compiled stuff is the exception, not the norm on modern (and therefore OT) systems. als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > l total 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 als users 81 Aug 23 11:47 hello.c als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > cat hello.c #include int main(void) { printf("Hello world!\n"); return 0; } als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > gcc -static -o hello hello.c als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > l total 1428 -rwxr-xr-x 1 als users 1451669 Aug 23 11:49 hello -rw-r--r-- 1 als users 81 Aug 23 11:47 hello.c als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > strip hello als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > l total 352 -rwxr-xr-x 1 als users 352140 Aug 23 11:49 hello -rw-r--r-- 1 als users 81 Aug 23 11:47 hello.c als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > gcc -o hello hello.c als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > l total 20 -rwxr-xr-x 1 als users 13336 Aug 23 11:51 hello -rw-r--r-- 1 als users 81 Aug 23 11:47 hello.c als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > strip hello als@bruckner:/tmp/als/hello > l total 8 -rwxr-xr-x 1 als users 3016 Aug 23 11:51 hello -rw-r--r-- 1 als users 81 Aug 23 11:47 hello.c The unstripped binary contains tons of symbol table information that is only needed for debugging. And on modern UNIX system the only binaries compiled statically (if any) are the binaries needed for emergency rescue (when you can't rely on having /lib in usable state). Oh, and maybe some commercial stuff linking against funny libraries (long time standard for motif stuff to avoid runtime licenses). Regards, Alex. -- We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable. -- Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs From pechter at bg-tc-ppp921.monmouth.com Thu Aug 23 06:55:48 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp921.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Hello world again In-Reply-To: <200108230305.XAA23718@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "Aug 22, 2001 11:04:59 pm" Message-ID: <200108231155.f7NBtmv15651@bg-tc-ppp921.monmouth.com> > > At 09:37 PM 8/22/01 -0400, Sean wrote: > > > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with > > >egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: > > >-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello > > > Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it would > > >be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! Here's another datapoint on FreeBSD intel x86 gcc 2.95.3. Stripped statically linked is ~44k, dynamic is ~2.8k not too bad. I don't think that's as bad as the 45k non-executable word file saying hello world. At least it's a runnable binary. # file hello hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped #ls -l hello -rwxr-xr-x 1 pechter users 43908 Aug 23 07:48 hello # file hello2 hello2: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped #ls -l hello2 -rwxr-xr-x 1 pechter users 2816 Aug 23 07:51 hello2 Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com Thu Aug 23 07:07:43 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: <006701c12b72$5aa7d860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Aug 22, 2001 09:24:28 pm" Message-ID: <200108231207.f7NC7hm15844@bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com> > I'm interested in the answer to this too. > So I found this. > > Open: > Sun compatible CD-ROM drives > http://www.ebsinc.com/solaris/suncds.htm > or Open: > FAQ: CD-ROM Drives on Sun Hardware > http://www.aball.de/~wpv/sun/faq/cdrom.html > Then go to: > Q4) What drives have been shown to work? > > > Doth the people knowest iff a Sun CDROM FAQ > is a sufficient matching list for DEC (it says it's 512 > byte block too)? Me gots ta get one a dem. > > John A. > excuse my language > > Sure should work... I use the same ones on both my Vax system and Sparcs. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jason.roger at sghambros.com Thu Aug 23 06:42:54 2001 From: jason.roger at sghambros.com (jason.roger@sghambros.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Pet Message-ID: <80256AB1.00409846.00@gwlon001.socgen.co.uk> Does anyone have a commodore pet for sale. ************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachments are confidential. They may contain privileged information and are intended for the named addressee(s) only. They must not be distributed without our consent. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately and do not disclose, distribute, or retain this email or any part of it. Unless expressly stated, opinions in this email are those of the individual sender, and not of SG Hambros Bank & Trust Group. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. You must therefore take full responsibility for virus checking. Societe Generale and its subsidiaries reserve the right to monitor all email communications through their networks. ************************************************************************************************ From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com Thu Aug 23 07:15:03 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <200108222248.AAA12503@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at "Aug 23, 2001 00:48:42 am" Message-ID: <200108231215.f7NCF3O16017@bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com> > On 22 Aug, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's > > trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to > > FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. > It is even trivial to replace the dead battery inside the chip, if you > know where and how to open it... > > > Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the > > first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me > > choosing a random value for the last three bytes? > Just use random bytes. That is what I did. But of course be sure that > there is no other machine on your network with that value... > -- > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > Has anyone ever decoded the Sun barcodes and system serial numbers to figure out what their scheme is on the original id's? Why they won't make that available is beyond me. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Aug 23 07:55:42 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Hello world again In-Reply-To: <200108231155.f7NBtmv15651@bg-tc-ppp921.monmouth.com> from Bill Pechter at "Aug 23, 1 07:55:48 am" Message-ID: <200108231255.FAA07706@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with > > > >egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: > > > >-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello > > > > Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it > > > > would > > > >be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! > > Here's another datapoint on FreeBSD intel x86 gcc 2.95.3. > > Stripped statically linked is ~44k, dynamic is ~2.8k not too bad. Here's AIX 4.1.4, and an old gcc that works fine here: stockholm:/home/spectre/src/% cat hello.c ; ls -l a.out ; file a.out ; gcc --version #include void main(int argc, char **argv) { printf("Hello world!\n"); exit(0); } -rwxr-xr-x 1 spectre staff 7545 Aug 23 05:53 a.out* a.out: executable (RISC System/6000) or object module not stripped 2.7.2.2 -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- From bill at cs.scranton.edu Thu Aug 23 08:20:15 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, geoffr wrote: > Many SCSI Toshibas can be set to0 512 byte blocks by cutting 2 traces on > the back of the drive. I use Toshiba's on my VAXex all the time and have never had to modify one. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 23 08:21:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: Message-ID: <002101c12bd6$8e533ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, it's not as unusual as you may think. Some folks don't know how to do anything useful, so they get more advanced degrees instead. I know of several folks who have multiple PhD's, not that it increases my respect for them, but it does indicate they've completed a major piece of academic work with a minimum of supervision. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > > Back in a past life, I worked on a program (written by a very clever chap > > with more PhD's than I've had hot dinners) which ran on a HP computer (I > > Since it's unusual to have more than 1 Ph.D. I guess it means you like > cold food :-) > > > >> >It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life > > > > > >Actually, FWIW, this is the sort of learning that I consider fun... > > > > Me too. There's nothing quite like "hands-on" learning, much more > > interesting than straight lectures or even student lab work. > > Yes. As I said a few days ago it's important to have some idea as to what > you are doing (randomly changing things will help nobody), but you do > need some real practical experience. > > > >> Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM > > >> chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who > > >> already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel > > >> processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's > > >> nice and simple. > > >> > > >> I haven't a clue how the bus works though.... > > > > > >Might I recomend the book 'The student manual for the Art of Electronics' > > >(or some similar title), 2nd edition, by Hayes and Horowitz. > > > > You can: Amazon is my friend... It doesn't say which edition it is, but I > > assume it's the newest one. > > The authors are different for the 2 editions (I think the first is > Horowitz and Robinson, but I am not going to run upstairs to check ;-) > (yes, I have both editions, and both editions of 'The Art of Electronics > :-))). > > > > > >The last few > > >sections get you to build a 68008-based computer from scratch. > > > > A QL? :) > > No, rather simpler than that. A 68008 + 256 bytes of RAM (IIRC) and a > hardware frontpanel (hex keyboard, which was supplied to students ready > made, but there is a schematic in the book) + TTL chips to load the RAM > independantly of the microprocessor. > > > > I can't > > >remember what chip the first edition used (8085? Z80?). The related book > > >'The Art of Electronics' is, of course, well worth reading as well... > > > > I shall order that too, I think. There's also an "Art of Electronics: > > Standard Manual", does anyone have any knowledge of that one? > > NEver heard of it. I wonder if 'standard' is a misprint for 'student' :-( > > It reminds me of the time I ordered the Options and Adapters Technical > Reference from IBM. I asked them to search for 'Options and Adapters' and > they told be there was no such manual listed. I thought it might well be > out of print and unavailable, but as I had the Form Number to hand, I > asked them to look for that. They told me that such a manual was still > available (at a rather high price) and that it was the Technical > Reference Questions and Answers. I ordered it anyway, and needless to say > it was the Options and Adapters manual. > > What seems to have happened is that : > > Options and Adapters was abreviated to O&A > > O&A was typo'd to Q&A > > Q&A was expanded to Questions and Answers > > (!) > > > Thanks! Any more book recommendations BTW? > > Sure... Mick&Brick 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design' is a classic if > you're interested in microcoded CPU internals. It's not that easy to > find, though (well, I don't buy things on the internet, so it might be > easy to get there, I've never looked). > > You also should start collecting data books (or data sheets) on all the > chips you might be interested in. You'll need them for the CPU, any > peripheral chips you like, and so on. And of course a TTL databook is > essential (don't rely on things like the Maplin Catalogue, there are > plenty of chips not listed in there). > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 23 08:36:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822201726.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010823100153.00a99368@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <005901c12bd8$a3f5a680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:01 AM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 01:56 pm 22/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >Hi, Adrian! > > Hi Richard! :) > > >If you're going to have "old" hardware, you're sooner or later going to > have to > >deal with DIY, since you can't hire out repairs of the sort you'll both > > >Learning to operate an eprom programmer should be the least of your > worries, not > >because it's unimportant, but because it's easy. > > That makes sense. It's just that I've never used one before, so at this > moment in time, I've not got any idea at all... > > >A big part of getting the appropriate equipment is learning enough to know > >what's appropriate. Starting out small and simple is probably the best > route. > >Since we've established that you'll have to do no soldering to (1) replace > the > >EPROMs you lack, and (2) insert the CPU, you can probably breathe a sigh of > >relief, in light of your apparent aversion to attempting such things at this > >juncture. Perhaps that's just as well for now. > > Well... It's not that I *can't* solder, it's just that I don't seem to be > very good at it for some reason. It may be that I've got a dodgy iron (I do > need to get one with a much smaller tip if I'm going to start desoldering > ICs), but a) The tip simply won't tin properly, b) It seems to take ages to > warm anything up enough to get the solder flowing. For example, I must have > spent 2 hours building a BBC 'B' monitor cable; and by the time the pin on > the DIN plug got hot, it went a dodgy colour and the solder wouldn't flow > onto it. I did eventually manage to get the cable going, but it was a hell > of a struggle. It didn't help that I don't have a vice here, so I needed > four hands at the time... > These are problems we all wrestle with and yet manage to get handled. Practice, though it really doesn't make "perfect" does make better, and lack of it will make you rusty, if you avoid it for a while. Wanting to avoid soldering and, in general, dis/re-assembling things is wise. It can't always be avoided, however. > > >If you replace your missing CPU with one that's as old as the original, > you'll > >have little trouble. Back when the PET was built, there was only one type of > >6502. That's the type you probably want. The CMOS versions were the ones > that > >came up with extra instructions, and, coincidentally, without the > undocumented > >ones that existed in the original. > > According to the datasheet (from Farnell) I was reading, the original > didn't have a BRA instruction? That seems somewhat unlikely to me, but is > it true? > I wasn't aware of a BRA instruction on the 6502. The CMOS parts and MOT had it on a number of their later models ... > > > > >You might visit www.6502.org to get a bit more info about this. > > > >If you want, I'll mail you an old 1 MHz 6502, but, since it involves going to > >some trouble, please be sure that you've covered the other bases, so to > speak, > >so the effort won't be in vain. In general, it might not be a bad idea to > find > >someone in your area who has a working version of what you've got under > study, > >just to see if you know what it looks like when it's working right. > Moreover, a > >momentary parts swap can be VERY revealing. > > Hmmm - I've tried that one way, which revealed the duff CPU (and > fortunately didn't fry the working machine), but I'm very leery of putting > good parts in a fried machine (for much the same reasons Tony gives, and > unashamedly based on his advice). > > Thanks anyhow! I'm starting to really look forward to poking around on this > board - maybe there's (no?) hope for me yet... > > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 23 08:20:09 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Hello world again In-Reply-To: <200108231255.FAA07706@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200108231155.f7NBtmv15651@bg-tc-ppp921.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823081818.02bee640@pc> At 05:55 AM 8/23/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >void main(int argc, char **argv) { > printf("Hello world!\n"); > exit(0); >} I'm sure you could save a few more bytes by eliminating the call to main() and examining the source of the assembler stubs that would normally call _main, and of course you don't need a full printf() when any low-level put-string function would do. - John From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 23 08:40:45 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation References: Message-ID: <000d01c12bd9$364e8e20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> BTW, having been to a VCF, I can vouch that the "Good" Sellam is the one in charge there. As for the "Bad" Sellam, the swearing is strictly an anomaly, possibly brought about by an over-reliance on Microsoft products. Regarding the Dr.-Jeckyl-and-Mr.-Tourette's syndrome thing, we can all hope for a swift remedy. John A. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 23 08:49:53 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010823084953.00a524c0@ubanproductions.com> While this is a nice looking system: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1267818946 The seller clearly has no clue. They are describing RK05s as tape drives and RK05 packs as cassettes! Good for a laugh anyway... --tom From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 23 09:01:05 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Culture Shock In-Reply-To: <8f.ecd7bbe.28b5f36f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010823100105.00b3ed10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Glenatacme@aol.com may have mentioned these words: [snip] >It looks ablout 3.5 feet tall, and the specs put it at 180+ kilograms. How >can it weigh that much? What's in it, lead? (yes, I know solder has lead in >it , , ,) > >How much does the tape unit weigh? Another 180 kilos?? It's not the computer storage space you have to worry about -- You need the *forklift* storage space (to move the computer around)! >What is the total power consumption for the 11/750 and the tape unit? > >Am I crazy for wanting to rescue this critter, since I don't know the first >thing about it? I'll probably break my back moving it and spend the next 10 >years learning how to use it and collecting disability benefits at the same >time. Isn't that the *perfect* situation? Get *paid* to monkey with classic machines all day???? ;-) So what if your back's all munged up? So what if you're in constant pain? [in the US] If you're on disability, you've got Medicare, so the Dr. bills are paid!!! :-) Mebbe *I'll* rescue that thing! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Aug 23 09:07:59 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... (and my collection!) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B116FB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's ! trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to ! FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. Providing I use the Sun "standard" of ! 08:00:20 as the ! first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me ! choosing a random value for the last three bytes? You might want to check out this web page... "SUN NVRAM/hostid FAQ" http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html ..it talks about how to change the MAC address, as well as changing the battery in the NVRAM chip. I haven't tried resetting the MAC addresses on my 2 SparcStation 1+ and SparcStation 2 yet, haven't had the chance. BTW, talking about collections, besides the 3 Sparcs, I also have... - Sun SparcStation LX (w/ 20" monitor, and optical mouse) - DEC VaxStation 3100 M38 (32MB RAM) - DEC 3000/400 (with the 20" color monitor) - AlphaStation 200 4/100 (dead power supply, and I think the mainboard might be dead too.) - various 68k Macs (LCII, LCIII, SE30, SE HDFD, Classic, IIci) some for sale/trade - 2 HP ScanJet flatbeds (for sale/trade) The Macs are in the basement at home, and the big stuff is in my office at work :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 23 09:05:54 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <000d01c12bd9$364e8e20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823090307.02c1b340@pc> At 09:40 AM 8/23/01 -0400, John Allain wrote: >BTW, having been to a VCF, I can vouch that the "Good" Sellam >is the one in charge there. As for the "Bad" Sellam, the swearing >is strictly an anomaly, possibly brought about by an over-reliance >on Microsoft products. I've always thought that if I met Sellam in person, we'd enjoy each others company. I'm not sure what I did to irk him. As for the language, I've always thought that if you wouldn't say it in the boardroom or in front of a reporter, you shouldn't say it on a mailing list. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:23:54 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <15236.12588.154752.998245@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to > > FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the > > first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me > > choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Alternately, if I call > > Real issues? No. I do it all the time. > > > Sun and give them the serial number of the machine, can they provide me > > with it's original MAC address? > > Probably not...but I wouldn't bother in any case. > Ok Dave, thanks. OBOffTopic: I went to the local mom & pop computer store to pick up some cables I needed for the SS1. I also needed an ethernet transciever. When I asked the PFY behind the counter for one, I got a blank look and "huh?" for my trouble. I tried again, "I need an AUI to 10BaseT converter." His witty response was of course, "Huh?". *sigh* "Look, it's a little box about 2 inches long, an inch wide and has an RJ45 jack on one end and a male joystick connector on the other." After yet another blank look, I gave up. I'll get one from someplace else. I may bring it back along with a DEC vampire tap and show him what they used in "olden times". Ye gods. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:29:45 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <200108222256.SAA23382@conman.org> Message-ID: > It was thus said that the Great Gene Buckle once stated: > > Hey! When did I get upgraded from "Smart Assed pain in the butt"? :) > > I thought that key sequence was only used for the OmniView SE 2 port > > KVM. The 4 port OmniView I have uses CTRL-SHIFT-ALT + console # + ENTER > > to change consoles. > > I have the Belkin Onmiview Pro-8 (I think---there's too much equipment in > the way for me to actually read the front of the unit 8-) and it uses > Scroll-lock twice, then unit number (0-7) then port number (0-7). The > Belkins can be chained together, but since I only have one, it's unit 0 (so > for instance, my primary Linux system is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-1, my Hmmm. The two port version I use here at work just screws up the mouse when I use the scroll-lock toggle command. Even pushing the button on the face of the KVM kills the mouse over half the time. As a result, I've got two mice on the desktop. I really hope that Belkin isn't going with the scroll-lock command sequence on all their new stuff. The one I have at home is also daisy-chainable, but that just increases the console number you can use - no need to specify a port. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:37:19 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <200108222312.TAA23409@conman.org> Message-ID: > Just make sure you don't duplicate MAC addresses. That's the only real > issue. Oh, and if you get more Suns, make sure you check their MAC > addresses for possible conflicts. > > Alternatively, you CAN assign your own MAC addresses. MAC addresses have > the following structure: > That's pretty cool. I'll have to save this one. I think I'll just use DE:AD:BF as the last three. :) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:44:24 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: [Way OT] Knock it off! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You notice how some "foo's" can't keep from trolling? > > Was that a troll, Dick? Hey, you know how a "dick" was like a private eye > back in your day? Times have changed. > Dammit Sellam, will you just stop this? It's totally absurd and doesn't do anything but make you look like a squalling 5 year old. If you've got a problem with him, take it to private mail! I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person on this list that's getting pretty tired of you and Richard virtually bitch-slapping each other in public. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:50:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If you do have other Suns, then make sure the last 3 bytes are different > on all your machines. > I do plan on getting more. It's why I DO want to keep the first three as the Sun standard. > Of course if you're planning to sell this machine to somebody else, who > might use it on a network with other Suns, or if you're going to link it > to somebody else's ethernet (company, university), then you need to take > rather more care. > The machine is going to be used as a firewall at my house, so that shouldn't be a problem. :) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:52:31 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: <311.635T2050T435399optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >After I've got the SS1 set up the way I need it (firewall), I think I'm > >going to get a SS10 machine I can load up with RAM & CPU and use that for > >other misc. amusements. > > Why would a firewall need a framebuffer, mouse and keyboard? Or a CD for that > matter... Well the CD is kind of important to be able to install from the OpenBSD 2.9 CD I have. The framebuffer can me moved from machine to machine and while I don't need the sun keyboard & mouse, I _do_ need the adaptors to use with my existing PC centric KVM. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:56:59 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Sun cdrom drive ... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822181219.00b95550@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: > >Thanks for the info Dan. One of the list members made me a VERY good > >offer on a sun drive in a 411 box so I'm going after that. :) I still > >need to pick up a 10BaseT SBUS board as well as a cheap framebuffer and a > >Sun -> PC display & mouse/keyboard adaptor so I can use my existing KVM. > > You could set it up pretty nicely without all that; you can > install NetBSD (at least) from a boot floppy, use a serial console to get > it installed and then just telnet/ssh to it in the future. No keyboard, no > mouse, no framebuffer, no CDROM. Well the CDROM isn't going to STAY with the machine. I just need it long enough to install OpenBSD 2.9 on it. The adapter set is more for the SS10 I hope to obtain soon. g. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Aug 23 10:13:00 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: ; from geneb@deltasoft.com on Thu, Aug 23, 2001 at 07:29:45AM -0700 References: <200108222256.SAA23382@conman.org> Message-ID: <20010823101300.F6920915@uiuc.edu> Gene Buckle said: > > Hmmm. The two port version I use here at work just screws up the mouse > when I use the scroll-lock toggle command. Even pushing the button on the > face of the KVM kills the mouse over half the time. As a result, I've got > two mice on the desktop. I really hope that Belkin isn't going with the > scroll-lock command sequence on all their new stuff. The one I have at > home is also daisy-chainable, but that just increases the console number > you can use - no need to specify a port. I've had the same kinds of problems with belkin 2-port KVMs as well...I've had them mangle the KB sometimes, too. ick. At home I have a 4-port Cybex KVM that works quite well, and it uses ctrl-ctrl--enter to switch machines. much less annoying then the scroll-lock thing, and I've also never had it mangle my input devices :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Thu Aug 23 10:22:04 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation Message-ID: I'd have to agree wholeheartedly. After being gone for a couple days, I've read 5 of the several hundred (mostly OT) classiccmp e-mails, the rest are immediately deleted. I like the list, but due to the sheer volume of OT riff-raff, I"ve been trying to switch to digest mode so I can get a little more work done. Hmmm... So if we became a 95% on topic list... I could still recieve all the wonderfully classic (legitimate) mail throughout the day, and not have to weed through religion (cars) and politics. I like it Mr. Mayor, I like it. - M.S. Marvin @classiccmp.org on 08/22/2001 11:51:07 AM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org cc: Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation Hear, hear!!!! I too have taken to scanning the top line of each message and end up basically deleting them with the decision made in about .2 seconds. I used to read everything but there is just too much garbage to do that anymore with my limited time. I do not favor moderation, but I do favor responsible posting. Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Jay: > > I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea. > There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: > > - off topic volume is way too high > - we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is > obviously intended to offend > - subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when > the topic has drifted > > Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them > on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of > the problem posts. > > I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am > subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least > glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for > messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the > rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have > crowded me out of full participation in the list. > > On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and > has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone > comes up with a question. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA > Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From jlwest at tseinc.com Thu Aug 23 10:36:03 2001 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: LIST OT RESOLUTION Message-ID: <0EE39B64575AD31193160090277BCB2EB89C6B@proxy.mppw.com> Okay, I'm sure some won't like it but here's my response: Let me say that I have never considered myself the "owner" of this list, just the host. I'm not hinting that I won't "take the bull by the horns", in fact I will. But that is why I've been slow to handle this issue (read: not feeling 'authorized' to deal with it as I see fit). I like to believe the list isn't "owned", it's everyones - obviously that mentality isn't working as of late. I read all the messages with regards to moderating the list. I also think that is a great idea. However, I'm glad that several posters noted the fact that doing so would put more burden on me time-wise when in fact the (utopian) solution is to approach this from the bottom-up, rather than the top-down (ie. people need to be responsible for their own actions). It is with much distaste that I see even my request for keeping things on topic turned into a thread that is exactly the type of thing I was complaining about. Two people (you know who you are) just don't seem to be able to act like adults and excercise one iota of decorum - being instead more concerned with "one-upmanship". I have received a flood of messages demanding the most extreme of actions to deal with both of them. Probably much to everyone's dismay I'm not going to take that particular action today, but only because it would be unfair to do that now given the solution I am going to put into effect. I will start working on an updated FAQ for the list over the weekend, and post it to the list when I'm done. I will also post it to the list monthly, as well as posting it as a gentle reminder (with the subject of the offending diatribe) when things start getting "out of hand". Yes, this makes me feel like a censor, but at this point - so be it. In the FAQ will be an unambiguous, objective, strictly enforced set of guidelines for someone getting unsubscribed from the list. I will take advice from all the recent postings to the list as to what these criteria should be, and strive to mold them into something that is far from subjective. To those who feel that extreme repeated obscenity, personal attacks, or inflamatory off-topic rhetoric is acceptable - take this as your notice; it will not be tolerated anymore, you will be unsubscribed if it continues. Lastly - I ask that THIS post not turn into a long discussion on the list either. If you want to send me suggestions as to what should go into the FAQ (not only as to the unsubscribing criteria but just helpfull information) please send that to me in private email. I'd love as much input as possible. If you want to send your sentiments of agreement and thanks, that is also welcome - in private email. If you feel my handling of this issue is inane and want to rant or attack me personally - you're entitled to that, but please just send it to me in private email. Regards, Jay West From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 23 10:55:06 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108230305.XAA23718@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "Aug 22, 2001 11:04:59 pm" Message-ID: <200108231555.IAA27941@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I did > > #include > > int main(void) { return(EXIT_SUCCESS); } /* [1] */ > > A static link made a binary of 435,031 bytes, and dynamically linking is > around 3k (using the default options). So that's the overhead (at least > under RedHat 5.2). > > -spc (Still a bit large to me ... ) Given that you are still linking in ctr0.o and libc, it's not surprising that it's huge. I'd suggest the following steps... Rename main() to start(). Compile the C to assembly (-S option to gcc). Edit the assembly file to remove all the unnecessary stuff. Assemble the file using "as". Link the object using "ld". Eric From dittman at dittman.net Thu Aug 23 11:00:19 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 23, 2001 07:23:54 AM Message-ID: <200108231600.f7NG0JS28725@narnia.int.dittman.net> > OBOffTopic: I went to the local mom & pop computer store to pick up some > cables I needed for the SS1. I also needed an ethernet transciever. When > I asked the PFY behind the counter for one, I got a blank look and > "huh?" for my trouble. I tried again, "I need an AUI to 10BaseT > converter." His witty response was of course, "Huh?". *sigh* "Look, > it's a little box about 2 inches long, an inch wide and has an RJ45 jack > on one end and a male joystick connector on the other." After yet another > blank look, I gave up. I'll get one from someplace else. I may bring it > back along with a DEC vampire tap and show him what they used in "olden > times". Ye gods. I wish I'd seen this earlier. I'll send you one with the replacement foot. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 11:04:37 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: LIST OT RESOLUTION Message-ID: Thanks Jay :-) SteveRob >From: "Jay West" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: >Subject: LIST OT RESOLUTION >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:36:03 -0500 > >Okay, I'm sure some won't like it but here's my response: > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 23 11:25:50 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Pet References: <80256AB1.00409846.00@gwlon001.socgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3B852E8E.FC7F182@rain.org> jason.roger@sghambros.com wrote: > > Does anyone have a commodore pet for sale. That question covers a lot of machines. Any particular model you are interested in? From glindsey at ssinc.com Thu Aug 23 11:35:37 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: [Way OT] Knock it off! References: Message-ID: <010d01c12bf1$b5bc1700$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "Gene Buckle" wrote... > > (flamewar snipped) > > Dammit Sellam, will you just stop this? It's totally absurd and doesn't > do anything but make you look like a squalling 5 year old. If you've got > a problem with him, take it to private mail! I'm pretty sure I'm not the > only person on this list that's getting pretty tired of you and Richard > virtually bitch-slapping each other in public. > I've restrained from commenting on this whole thing, because I didn't want to post off-topic... but now there's a big "meta-offtopic" thread of complaints about flames, trolls, and off-topic threads. Ironic, huh? :) Personally, I just suggest quietly killfiling and moving on. Keeps the S/N ratio down. GSL From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 23 11:45:42 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <3B845D5E.1A3B01D6@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, John W. Linville wrote: > > Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. > > That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a > number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging > from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at > least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each > family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the > Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should > pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look? I agree. However, Linux is still *somewhat* x86-centric. Also, I don't necessarily think WindowsNT on Alpha and PowerPC should be disregarded completely. ELKS is excellent. Period. I've never had problems with it. I have with MINIX though. (I build controllers for industrial robots.) But, if you truly want to go multiplatform, NetBSD is the one to beat. I run it on six platforms myself. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 23 11:48:00 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822181042.00b91340@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > >Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. > > Au contraire! In my work we are finding a lot of interest in > running Linux on PPC embedded boards such as the IBM 405 (aka > "walnut"). There's some interest in ARM too. I believe there is a NetBSD walnut port underway, and NetBSD is quite stable on both 26- and 32-bit ARMs (including the StrongARM). Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 23 11:56:16 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010823084953.00a524c0@ubanproductions.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: >While this is a nice looking system: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1267818946 > >The seller clearly has no clue. They are describing RK05s as tape >drives and RK05 packs as cassettes! Good for a laugh anyway... > >--tom Personally it looks to me as if the seller is very clueful, especally if they get the manual pic's up. I don't see anywhere, where they're listing RK05's as tape drives, though I do see a DECcassette drive. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and those pic's sure speak a lot! I wish I had room for and could afford that system! The eBay page above has the following link http://www.fibraplex.com/PDP8/ultimate_pdp.htm that will be of more interest to people, especially as the auction is currently sitting at $1200.00. And before anybody starts screaming about that price, from what I'm seeing in the pic's that's not to bad of a price if it's a working system (and it sounds like it should be). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 12:28:15 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: 2/3 drives (was: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <10108222227.ZM17668@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I remember those -- the RML380Z used them. Canon also made a 2/3 drive -- > a 40/80 switchable, and a rather better device than the BASF. I've got one > here, with some extra switches so it can emulate the peculiarities of an > RX50. What I like was the double drive that Canon made in a 2/3 factor. 2/3 the height of a "regular" drive, but with 2 slots. (Maybe I'll sell it at VCF) They made several variants of it, including models that had two stepper motors, and ones with one stepper (both drives are on the same track). Quick simple puzzle: why would a drive that steps both disks at the same time be significantly SLOWER when DISKCOPY'ing a disk than using separate drives? Hint: MUCH faster when copying if you write software specifically for it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 23 11:29:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: A Modest Proposal (NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST) In-Reply-To: <20010823025943.5827.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Ken Seefried wrote: > It would be a shame to impose the burden of moderation, especially when you > could probably remove 95% of the noise on the list with a few simple steps: Ken, the only way to enforce this IS to invoke moderation. Here's how your self-policing will work out: Troll: I think . Policer1: Hey, take that off-topic crap somewher else! Fish1: I don't think it's off topic since Policer2: Hey, don't use foul language Policer1! I agree with you but can we not use foul language? My virgin ears are offended. Fish2: PissedOffListMember1: Can we stop with this off-topic thread please!? Fish3: Troll: Fish4: Fish5: Seeker: Can I get a schematic for [request lost in the din] PissedOffListMember2: Please take this discussion else where! Policer1: We need moderation! Fish2: PissedOffListMember3: Enough of this off-topic thread! I'm unsubscribing! Troll: Policer3: Troll, you're such a . This is not on-topic! Troll: FU! I think if people are contributing to the discussion then it's obviously on topic! Fish3: I like this discussion! I don't get out very much and it gives me a chance to be social. Fish2: Yeah, I don't see the problem with an occasional off-topic discussion. What's the big deal? is sorta computer related Policer2: I agree, this off-topic thread must end! I had to delete <#> messages today that were noise. But can we stop with the foul language? Policer3's head explodes. Fish1,2,3,4,5,6...: ListMember0: Hey, how about them Altairs? ListMember1: On eBay, an Altair is going for . NewTroll: I hate eBay! eBay <...blather> NewFish: yeah! I agree.... Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 23 11:41:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823090307.02c1b340@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > I've always thought that if I met Sellam in person, we'd enjoy each > others company. I'm not sure what I did to irk him. You just come off as a glib smartass at times, so tit for tat, eh? The list is the list. People act differently here. I just can't stand the displays of stupidity that sometimes make an appearance here, and occasionally feel compelled to point it out, but oh well. I don't hold that against anyone in the "real" world. Well, except for one certain individual who seriously crossed the line several times, and who passed by my table at a recent ham fest giving me pause to consider whether I should get up and kick his pasty white ass. I just called him a "dork" out of earshot instead :) > As for the language, I've always thought that if you wouldn't say it > in the boardroom or in front of a reporter, you shouldn't say it on a > mailing list. In that case I'm covered. P.S. If, as an adult, you still think words are "dirty" then you still have maturing to do. Think about it. My opinion. Accept it as that and move on. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 12:41:56 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <1351.635T400T973813optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >> >> You mean you teach them Intel assembler? > >> >Yes > >> >Not because it's "good", but because it's needed. (I teach at a community > >> >college, where we are teaching "useful" skills, not the abstractions of > >> >the university.) > >> I didn't know Intel was needed. If that is the case, it must be the fault > >> of community colleges (whatever that is). > >You are familiar with how many computers there are with Intel 80x86 family > >processors, and you are familiar with the software that is being run. > >Are you saying that there ISN'T a need to imporove the quality of that > >software? > On 23 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I've been both told and taught that assembly is not used anymore on the Intel > platform, at least not Intel-based computers, and that modern compilers do > the job much better anyway. Sure. And the same people say that classic computers are useless. You listen to them? I won't risk moderation by commenting about those people. No, modern compilers do NOT "do the job much better anyway". It could be argued that you can now GET AWAY with the quality of the output of modern compilers by throwing RAM and CPU at it, but that is NOT the same as doing the job better. > >If you can get a quorum for a class at this school in some other processor > >family and meet the state legal requirements, then I will personally break > >enough administrator arms to get you hired to teach it. > Quid pro quorum? It is difficult to locate and recruit good teachers, particularly since teaching does not pay as well as what we can make in industry. And students vote with their feet. If we offer courses that they want, then they sign up. If we offer stuff that they don't want, then they don't. If I can get students who want to learn assembly language, I'll gladly teach it, even if what they want to learn is Intel. (I can get away with encouraging them to consider alternatives. Particularly when I show them what things like SHR AX, 33 do.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 13:00:19 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: How do you take apart a Z-19 case? Message-ID: Hello all, I recently saved a Zenith Z-19 terminal from the ravages of my local "recycling center" (i.e., dump). However, the power cord was cut off just after it exits from the back of the terminal (as if I do not already have enough to fix). It looks like there is a small panel that can be removed from the bottom, giving me access to the power supply. I could probably replace the cord from there, but before I do, I want to take the case off to make sure there is no major damage inside. I removed the panel along the back that has the RS-232 connection and brightness knob on it. This seemed to free up the back of the top part of the case. It is getting hung up about halfway down each side. There appears to be a bracket attached to the bottom half of the case, and a pin that goes through the bracket from the top half of the case is hung up (are you confused yet?). Anyway, if anyone has done this before, please enlighten me as to taking this thing apart. Other than the power cord, and a little dirt and grime, the unit is in good shape. The CRT (what is visible from the outside) looks good, and the keyboard appears to work (no stuck keys or grinding noises when pressed, etc.). It has a cool circular metal "property of Raytheon" tag on it, and I'd like to get it running if possible. It would make a good terminal for some of my rack-mounted Multibus stuff... Thanks! Rich B. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Aug 23 13:08:12 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:42 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! References: <3B84C316.9A049520@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <3B85468C.6C203E3A@internet1.net> What do you have an Apple //gs, //e, a //c, a //+, or a plain //? Most of my stuff is geared for a //e, but should work on a //c as well. The //gs runs a lot of my games too fast, and I don't even know about the //+, or //, as I have no experience with them. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Shaun Stephenson wrote: > > I just aquired an Apple II but havent got any software. Does anyone have > any discs they could lend/copy for me (just thinking of old games, PD > stuff, whatever), or know of a good source? Also I need some system > discs desperately... again can anyone help me out on this? Finally, does > anyone know a good source of 5 1/4" blank discs? > > Ta! > Shaun From curt at atari-history.com Thu Aug 23 13:10:49 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: SWP ATR8000 with hard drive upgrade.... References: Message-ID: <3B854729.A29332F5@atari-history.com> Hi... Looking for anyone who may have an SWP ATR8000 CP/M Z80 System/Atari peripheral interface. I'm looking anyone who may have a unit that has the BJL or any other type of hard drive interface upgrade on it that allowed the use of MFM and SASI/SCSI hard drives, thanks. BTW, if anyone needs it, I have all of the co-power-88 IBM compatibility software for the ATR8000 with a co-power-88 upgrade installed, if anyone needs copies, let me know. Curt From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 23 13:09:35 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010823084953.00a524c0@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010823130935.00aace00@ubanproductions.com> If you cycle the pictures with the little arrow at the right and then pick the photo of the two RK05s... I'm guessing that the seller is not the person who carefully stored this system over the years. --tom >Personally it looks to me as if the seller is very clueful, especally if >they get the manual pic's up. I don't see anywhere, where they're listing >RK05's as tape drives, though I do see a DECcassette drive. They say a >picture is worth a thousand words, and those pic's sure speak a lot! I >wish I had room for and could afford that system! > >The eBay page above has the following link >http://www.fibraplex.com/PDP8/ultimate_pdp.htm that will be of more >interest to people, especially as the auction is currently sitting at >$1200.00. And before anybody starts screaming about that price, from what >I'm seeing in the pic's that's not to bad of a price if it's a working >system (and it sounds like it should be). > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From root at jade.tseinc.com Thu Aug 23 13:24:40 2001 From: root at jade.tseinc.com (Charlie Root) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: How do you take apart a Z-19 case? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108231824.NAA18618@jade.tseinc.com> I have several (3 or 4) 19's at home. I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty certain that the only thing you need to deal with is that pin and bracket setup that you mentioned. There is a single one of these on each side of the unit. They are in the crack between the top and bottom halves of the case. You put the tip of a flagt-blagdde screwderiver in the middle of the bracket and slide the bracket either to the front or the rear, I forget which. Note that if you slide the bracket all the way, it will catch on the pin and not release it (poor design). Once both brackets are slid, life up t up and the pins will come out through the hole and the entire top half will open along the hinge in the back. Work with it a bit, those catch mechanisms were invariably not smooth to use. But once those catches release, you should be able to get to eveyrything inside just fine. Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 23 13:30:59 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010823130935.00aace00@ubanproductions.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010823084953.00a524c0@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: >If you cycle the pictures with the little arrow at the right and then >pick the photo of the two RK05s... I'm guessing that the seller is not >the person who carefully stored this system over the years. OK, by looking at the page source I see what you're talking about. It looks like the first one is labled by as a PDP-8/i :^) One problem I see is that you're seeing a different web page than I am. Stinking Javescript! I guess I should be thankful that I can see the pics. Still it's a very nice system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 23 13:42:40 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823090307.02c1b340@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823132455.02bfa9c0@pc> At 09:41 AM 8/23/01 -0700, you wrote: >You just come off as a glib smartass at times, so tit for tat, eh? The >list is the list. People act differently here. I just can't stand the >displays of stupidity that sometimes make an appearance here, and >occasionally feel compelled to point it out, but oh well. I don't hold >that against anyone in the "real" world. "Glib smartass" is about right. :-) I can be. But this is the "real world" just as much as anywhere else. >P.S. If, as an adult, you still think words are "dirty" then you still >have maturing to do. Think about it. My opinion. Accept it as that and >move on. I didn't say anything about whether I thought certain words were "dirty" or not. I don't remember calling for prohibitions against foul language. Other list members did. Didn't you just draw the line at ethnic slurs? I do think that off-color language is rarely considered appropriate in professional situations. I doubt anyone here would disagree that we'd all like a list that could be described as "professional yet casual, or civil." Are list moderators professionals? In a sense, I think yes. The best I've known become well-known in their industry or niche both for their career's talents as well as their handling of an online community. Like good managers in any professional situation, they take extra care to handle the unpleasant situations - probably off-line and with the minimal force necessary. I've had the vague impression you were once successful at selling phone systems or some such. I'd guess that you had to behave professionally in those situations, and that you had to resist the urge to scream "ASSSSSS!" now and then. - John From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Aug 23 12:29:54 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108230137.VAA23605@conman.org> References: <328.635T2950T316367optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010823132954.01715f54@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:37 PM 8/22/01 -0400, you wrote: > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with >egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: > >-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello Geez, what did you do, load all symbols/debug info for all libraries? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 23 14:10:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <3B82D36E.44912833@texoma.net> Message-ID: <1350.635T1700T12105109optimus@canit.se> James Rice skrev: >Texas houses don't have basements. When we built our house two years >ago, I pre cabled the office. There are six 20 AMP circuits in the room >and I have 24 10/100 ethernet jacks along the three walls. The fourth >wall is the wet bar with refrigerator and the server closet for the >servers, hubs, ISDN routers and in November, the DSL router/modem. >Makes it convenient. I live in a 17 m? student room with a total of four unearthed power outlets. My collectio neats up so much space, both in and outside of my room, that the only place to stand is the matress I sleep on. Sad, isn't it? I have a stack of desktop boxes taller than I, and three multisync monitors and a terminal to connect them to, which works about as well as a workstation switch. Anything with a composite or RF output gets to sit in my lap while it's connected to my video and Philips CM8833. How I miss my two-roomer... =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. It's amazing how many useful pieces of equipment are disguised as domestic appliances: the machine for cleaning keyboard keycaps and shell cases does an excellent job of washing clothes, while the tumbling machine for drying them off also works for socks and shirts. The device in the kitchen for baking small spray-painted articles can be used for pizza and muffins. And so on... Pete Turnbull From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 23 14:26:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010821144324.02f25ad0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <489.635T1100T12265161optimus@canit.se> Matthew Sell skrev: >>From: Matthew Sell >>As a discussion - what technically makes the difference between a >>mainframe and a mini? Are there physical comparisons to be made or >>performance? In old times it would have been the job-oriented, non-realtime operating method. The distinction nowadays is alien to me, though. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From red at bears.org Thu Aug 23 14:02:47 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > That's pretty cool. I'll have to save this one. I think I'll just > use DE:AD:BF as the last three. :) My former co-worker and maintainer of the SUN NVRAM FAQ, Mark Henderson, is partial to 08:00:20:c0:ff:ee FWIW I haven't been able to determine any significant relationship between the serial number of the machine and its hostid, or even between the latter and the barcode on top of the NVRAM itself. I will close by just pointing out that a Sun's hostid is '80' plus the last three octets of the ethernet MAC address. In the above case, the system's hostid would be '80c0ffee'. Enjoy your SPARCstations. ok r. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 23 14:05:16 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010823130935.00aace00@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010823084953.00a524c0@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010821151600.00a1a850@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010823140516.0088da00@ubanproductions.com> At 11:30 AM 8/23/01 -0700, you wrote: >>If you cycle the pictures with the little arrow at the right and then >>pick the photo of the two RK05s... I'm guessing that the seller is not >>the person who carefully stored this system over the years. > >OK, by looking at the page source I see what you're talking about. It >looks like the first one is labled by as a PDP-8/i :^) One problem I see >is that you're seeing a different web page than I am. Stinking Javescript! >I guess I should be thankful that I can see the pics. Yes, there are a number errors in the picture labels. Why are you seeing a different page? Aren't we both looking at this one? http://www.fibraplex.com/PDP8/ultimate_pdp.htm Or is your browser lacking in capability? >Still it's a very nice system. I never said it wasn't a nice system. I would take it if: a) money was no object, b) I had room to set it up, and c) it wasn't so far away (see (a)) --tom > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 14:12:58 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:47:18 +0100 >From: Shaun Stephenson >Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! >I just acquired an Apple II but haven't got any software. Shaun, and anyone else looking, I recently acquired a decent stash of Apple II stuff, including a IIc+, and lots of software. I have a DOS 3.3 Master Disk, and a ProDOS User's Disk for the IIe (not sure of the exact ProDOS version, but I can check). I also have AppleWriter II, a few games, and other misc. software. Contact me off-list, and we can work out the details. As to a source of 5.25" disks, I hate to mention it, but eBay is actually good for this. Bargains can actually be had... Rich B. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 14:34:29 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:44:49 -0400 >From: "ajp166" >Subject: Re: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? >From: Rich Beaudry >>I would like to ask if any of you know of an existing, available, commercial >>switching power supply that could be used to power an S-100 computer? > >WHY???? The bus voltages for S100 are UNREGULATED. OK ... so how does this change things? If I have an unregulated 8 Volt power supply, and the regulators on the cards regulate that down to 5 V, how is that different from having a regulated SMPS at 8 volts, and still having the regulators drop it down to 5 Volts. Perhaps stupid, but is it technically possible, and will it work without harming the boards? I thought it would be easier to get a modern supply, so I wouldn't have to try to build one... Of course, now that I look at the prices for SMPS.... YIKES! >> realize I could get a +5V and +/- 12V supply >> and just remove the regulation circuitry on the cards >Only if its an old LINEAR supply as SMPS designs mostly will not dot it. I'm not sure what you mean by that.... >The S100 power supply is terminally simple. Three transformers >{8,16, 16 V AC}, three bridge rectifiers and three caps... thats all >folks. Yup, I know ... Try finding a new, "available from a distributor" transformer these days that will handle these voltages and currents, and I will quietly slink off... That's the reason I'm looking for alternatives. I can't find a transformer that will give me the voltages and currents I need. Links to these distributors are welcomed... Rich B. From cmcmanis at netapp.com Thu Aug 23 14:34:04 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010823123359.00a0d010@www.mcmanis.com> >FWIW I haven't been able to determine any significant relationship between >the serial number of the machine and its hostid, or even between the >latter and the barcode on top of the NVRAM itself. The hostid does however indicate processor type and some versions of solaris will try to guess what packages you want based on the architecture. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 23 14:08:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: OT: discussion of "real world" vs. "list world" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823132455.02bfa9c0@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > "Glib smartass" is about right. :-) I can be. But this is the "real > world" just as much as anywhere else. Kind of. People are bolder and feel freer to express themselves when behind the glass of a CRT. I would never stand there amidst a group of people and tell R.D. what an ass he is at the top of my voice (unless, say, we were all familiar with each other). That's not appropriate. Then again, I don't think he would start off on an obnoxious rant either (unless he's got Wayne-Greenitis). I know that I act much differently in e-mail than in public, and I suspect he does too, which is why in real life I would cordially greet him if we ever met. > I do think that off-color language is rarely considered appropriate in > professional situations. I doubt anyone here would disagree that we'd > all like a list that could be described as "professional yet casual, > or civil." You've never been in the boardrooms that I have. And you've obviously never met my attorney. He's worse than me, and that's a whole lotta naughty curse words being bandied about. > Are list moderators professionals? In a sense, I think yes. The best > I've known become well-known in their industry or niche both for their > career's talents as well as their handling of an online community. > Like good managers in any professional situation, they take extra care > to handle the unpleasant situations - probably off-line and with the > minimal force necessary. There really should be no need for moderation on this list, but it is plainly obvious that some of the folks here just don't have manners when it comes to staying on topic. > I've had the vague impression you were once successful at selling > phone systems or some such. I'd guess that you had to behave > professionally in those situations, and that you had to resist the > urge to scream "ASSSSSS!" now and then. In those situations that required it, sure. But once you get chummy with your clients and find out they aren't uptight, the "dirty" words start to flow. In this environment, I feel like we are all fairly well acquainted with each other. Some of us have "known" each other for literally years now. It's not like we are just meeting each other in a public forum for the first time and have to keep our facade of social graces up. If you come to the list, you should feel like you're walking into a bar, and in bars, people feel free to express themselves any way they want without having to worry about being chastised, with the exception of those jumping onto the bar and delivering a screaming rant about politics or whatever. That person would get his ass booted to the curb. Stay civil, and courteous to your bar mates, and keep within the proscribed topic, and everyone will be happy. All that being said, I don't have an aversion to using the English language to its fullest, including certain words that some people may find "dirty", "naughty", "foul", etc. That's a silly concept. Words are words. They are pure. It's the emotions that people assign to them that make them "dirty", etc. If you have a problem with a word, it's yours alone, not mine. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Aug 23 14:12:08 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Rich Beaudry wrote: > As to a source of 5.25" disks, I hate to mention it, but eBay is > actually good for this. Bargains can actually be had... Try thrift stores! You'll find more than you'll ever know what to do with, and cheap! Sometimes you can find some new in the box with shrinkwrap even. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 23 15:41:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: from "Tom Uban" at Aug 23, 2001 02:05:16 PM Message-ID: <200108232041.f7NKfP430116@shell1.aracnet.com> > Yes, there are a number errors in the picture labels. Why are you > seeing a different page? Aren't we both looking at this one? > > http://www.fibraplex.com/PDP8/ultimate_pdp.htm That's the page I'm looking at. > Or is your browser lacking in capability? In Netscape/Mac PPC 4.78 all the thumbnails are in one long row, no picture labels In Netscape/Linux x86 4.76 the thumbnails are in multiple rows so I don't have to scroll right to see them all, however, there are again not picture labels. I'm assuming you're using Internet Explorer, and that this is some incompatibility between the two browsers. Zane From LennyT at aol.com Thu Aug 23 15:43:01 2001 From: LennyT at aol.com (LennyT@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Inquiry into Wang Computers Message-ID: <124.3a65426.28b6c4d5@aol.com> I have a question on Speed language on a Wang computer???? Len Turnbull -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/fcc80f9b/attachment.html From CELang at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 23 16:10:06 2001 From: CELang at worldnet.att.net (CELang) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! Message-ID: <001001c12c17$ffcbc9a0$4e834b0c@oemcomputer> Shaun, If this is a ][ or a ][+, I can help. Assuming, of course, I can locate my blank 5.25 disks. I *think* I have some left. Frankly, I lack the experience with the "c", "e", and "gs" to know if this stuff will work with them. Please let me know what flavor of Apple you've got. Craig -----Original Message----- From: Shaun Stephenson To: Classic Computers List Date: Thursday, August 23, 2001 4:24 AM Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! >I just aquired an Apple II but havent got any software. Does anyone have >any discs they could lend/copy for me (just thinking of old games, PD >stuff, whatever), or know of a good source? Also I need some system >discs desperately... again can anyone help me out on this? Finally, does >anyone know a good source of 5 1/4" blank discs? > >Ta! >Shaun > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 23 16:15:33 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: <200108232041.f7NKfP430116@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010823161533.008929c0@ubanproductions.com> >In Netscape/Mac PPC 4.78 all the thumbnails are in one long row, no picture >labels > >In Netscape/Linux x86 4.76 the thumbnails are in multiple rows so I don't >have to scroll right to see them all, however, there are again not picture >labels. > >I'm assuming you're using Internet Explorer, and that this is some >incompatibility between the two browsers. > > Zane > > When you click on a picture, it makes the big picture below it be the one you clicked on. The big picture has a label. Alternatively, if you sit on one picture with your pointer for a bit, it will show you the title (at least it does with IE). --tom From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 23 16:17:56 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200108231555.IAA27941@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Aug 23, 2001 08:55:06 AM Message-ID: <200108232117.RAA25052@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric J. Korpela once stated: > > > I did > > > > #include > > > > int main(void) { return(EXIT_SUCCESS); } /* [1] */ > > > > A static link made a binary of 435,031 bytes, and dynamically linking is > > around 3k (using the default options). So that's the overhead (at least > > under RedHat 5.2). > > > > -spc (Still a bit large to me ... ) > > Given that you are still linking in ctr0.o and libc, it's not surprising > that it's huge. I'd suggest the following steps... Rename main() to start(). > Compile the C to assembly (-S option to gcc). Edit the assembly file to > remove all the unnecessary stuff. Assemble the file using "as". Link the > object using "ld". That's the overhead for using the Standard C Library. The minimum seems to be around 300 bytes or so, mostly for the executable section headers. Besides, when I generated the assembly code for the above file (using ``gcc -S -O4 -fomit-frame-pointer h4.c'') I got: .file "h4.c" .version "01.01" gcc2_compiled.: .text .align 4 .globl main .type main,@function main: xorl %eax,%eax ret .Lfe1: .size main,.Lfe1-main .ident "GCC: (GNU) 2.7.2.3" There's not much left to take out 8-) -spc (GCC is actually a fairly decent C compiler) From pechter at bg-tc-ppp382.monmouth.com Thu Aug 23 16:30:45 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp382.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: <200108232041.f7NKfP430116@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 23, 2001 01:41:25 pm" Message-ID: <200108232130.f7NLUkU17606@bg-tc-ppp382.monmouth.com> > > Yes, there are a number errors in the picture labels. Why are you > > seeing a different page? Aren't we both looking at this one? > > > > http://www.fibraplex.com/PDP8/ultimate_pdp.htm > > That's the page I'm looking at. > > > Or is your browser lacking in capability? > > In Netscape/Mac PPC 4.78 all the thumbnails are in one long row, no picture > labels > > In Netscape/Linux x86 4.76 the thumbnails are in multiple rows so I don't > have to scroll right to see them all, however, there are again not picture > labels. > > I'm assuming you're using Internet Explorer, and that this is some > incompatibility between the two browsers. > > Zane Click on the thumbnail and it enlarges and you get a picture label. Opera 5.x Linux. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 23 16:32:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Inquiry into Wang Computers In-Reply-To: <124.3a65426.28b6c4d5@aol.com> Message-ID: So what's the question? Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 LennyT@aol.com wrote: > I have a question on Speed language on a Wang computer???? > > > Len Turnbull > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 23 16:34:54 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: 2/3 drives (was: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" "2/3 drives (was: TRS80 help needed" (Aug 23, 10:28) References: Message-ID: <10108232234.ZM18791@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 23, 10:28, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Quick simple puzzle: why would a drive that steps both disks at the same > time be significantly SLOWER when DISKCOPY'ing a disk than using separate > drives? > Hint: MUCH faster when copying if you write software specifically for it. Because it will read some number of tracks, stepping inward as it does so, then have to step back to the correct track to start writing. Example: read tracks 0 to 19 (20 in total, 19 steps), step back 19 tracks, write 20 tracks (19 steps again); repeat. Total number of steps to copy n tracks is just less than 3n. If you want to read the tracks back to verify them, life is even worse, as the total is almost 5n. On the other hand, if you do it one track at a time: read a track, write that track, then step forward one track, the total number of steps to copy n tracks is n-1 steps. And still only n-1 if you verify each track as you go. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 23 17:06:08 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: from "Tom Uban" at Aug 23, 2001 04:15:33 PM Message-ID: <200108232206.f7NM68Y02907@shell1.aracnet.com> > When you click on a picture, it makes the big picture below it be the > one you clicked on. The big picture has a label. Alternatively, if you > sit on one picture with your pointer for a bit, it will show you the > title (at least it does with IE). With Netscape you click on the thumbnail and get the big pic, but no label. Zane From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 23 17:05:48 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010823132954.01715f54@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Aug 23, 2001 01:29:54 PM Message-ID: <200108232205.SAA25095@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Carlos Murillo once stated: > > At 09:37 PM 8/22/01 -0400, you wrote: > > I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with > >egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: > > > >-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello > > Geez, what did you do, load all symbols/debug info for > all libraries? Statically linked. The glibc is fairly big. I don't think it's the symbol/debug version (since I didn't use `-g') but I would have to double check that. -spc (Could have been worse---libc.a is almost 8M on my system 8-P From jss at subatomix.com Thu Aug 23 17:28:32 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp Jobs? Message-ID: <20010823130137.D25712-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> It's time for me to look for a job. I've been unemployed (voluntarily, happily so) for a month, and re-establishment of a dependable cash flow is becoming a top priority. Since I'll be finishing college next May, it's also time to begin looking for my first post-college position. Can a programmer make a career out of classic computing? I'm not thinking of titles like eBay seller, parts reseller, museum lackey, or midnight-shift tape mounter either; I mean an honest programming job, having some non-drudgery thing to do with classic computing. I'm guessing the answer is "no", but I would still like to see it discussed. It is also on-topic! :-) Ample application of imagination is all right. I'm also highly interested in embedded programming. I had a taste of it at my previous job, and it was extremely enjoyable. O respected, veteran sages, how does one in my situation create a career in embedded programming? Please reply to this paragraph off-list. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 23 17:43:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010823161533.008929c0@ubanproductions.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010823161533.008929c0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: >When you click on a picture, it makes the big picture below it be the >one you clicked on. The big picture has a label. Alternatively, if you >sit on one picture with your pointer for a bit, it will show you the >title (at least it does with IE). Oddly, Mac browsers don't support those alt-tags as you describe. I had some of our graphics artists ask me why their alt-tags, which they were required to put there, weren't showing up on the Mac's. I've yet to find a single Mac browser, whether it be IE, Netscape, or Opera, that shows them. On the other hand, the redering differences between Netscape and IE are well known. My main page is a good example of one that looks quite different depending on which one you use to view it. I've always liked AWeb for the Amiga and it's compatability settings. You could choose whether to render using strict HTML standards or do it compatible with the other browsers. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com Thu Aug 23 17:54:56 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: humorous descriptions of ebay item In-Reply-To: <200108232206.f7NM68Y02907@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 23, 2001 03:06:08 pm" Message-ID: <200108232254.f7NMsuY17975@bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com> > > When you click on a picture, it makes the big picture below it be the > > one you clicked on. The big picture has a label. Alternatively, if you > > sit on one picture with your pointer for a bit, it will show you the > > title (at least it does with IE). > > With Netscape you click on the thumbnail and get the big pic, but no label. > > Zane Yup... I was wrong with Opera... the only label was the PDP8 Computer one. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 15:17:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <200108230151.VAA23626@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 22, 1 09:51:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/0b9eaa15/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 15:34:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: <20010822235902.P24341-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Aug 23, 1 00:04:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 973 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/0acf3017/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 15:50:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010823100153.00a99368@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 23, 1 10:01:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2909 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/90d3eea6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 15:58:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010823101112.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 23, 1 10:11:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2822 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/0fadddf4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 17:14:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <005901c12bd8$a3f5a680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 23, 1 07:36:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/bda8c518/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:57:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 23, 1 10:29:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9116 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/2521dbbb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 17:27:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: 2/3 drives (was: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 23, 1 10:28:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/61c9c8c4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 17:34:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: How do you take apart a Z-19 case? In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Aug 23, 1 02:00:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2262 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010823/0b017e6e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 18:01:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: OT: discussion of "real world" vs. "list world" In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 23, 1 12:08:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010824/1ecaedc9/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 23 17:46:52 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! In-Reply-To: Shaun Stephenson "Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!!" (Aug 23, 9:47) References: <3B84C316.9A049520@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <10108232346.ZM18829@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 23, 9:47, Shaun Stephenson wrote: > I just aquired an Apple II but havent got any software. Does anyone have > any discs they could lend/copy for me (just thinking of old games, PD > stuff, whatever), or know of a good source? Also I need some system > discs desperately... again can anyone help me out on this? It depends on what model you have. I assume (from your email address) you're in the UK? If so, I'd guess you have either an Apple ][ Europlus, or perhaps an Apple //e. I can copy you a DOS 3.3 system master (if you have a Europlus, you'd need to have P5A and P6A PROMs in your Disk ][ card, for 16-sector disks). I might have a DOS 3.2 system master (13 sector) if you only have P5/P6 PROMs, but the A versions are more common. I also have quite a lot of games, a few utilities like Kermit, miniassembler, etc, and some digitised pictures. However, some of the games need Integer BASIC, so you'd need a language card to run those ones. I also have a few ProDOS 1.1.1 disks, but they only work on a //e. > Finally, does > anyone know a good source of 5 1/4" blank discs? Old driver disks for PCs, old magazine disks, etc. But make sure they're single or double density (48 tpi or 96tpi), NOT HD (High Density) disks. Either single or double sided is fine for an Apple ][. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 23 18:30:30 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: Adrian Vickers "Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)" (Aug 23, 10:29) References: <3.0.6.32.20010823020740.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <10108240030.ZM18856@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 23, 10:29, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >> >> I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap... > >> > > >> >You can get _good_ second-hand 'scopes for less than a poor quality new=20 > >> >one. Stewarts of Reading often have Tektronix 'scopes for a few hundred=20 > >> >pounds (something like a 465 or a low-end 7000). > >> > >> Which would you recommend? I'd pay =A3200-=A3300 for something that's goi= > > > >Don't buy a new low-end 'scope (certainly not one of the Lucky Goldstar > >or whatever that Maplin sells (I think the 'Lucky' part of that brand > >name describes what you are if it works properly :-))). The Tekky 465 is > >a small-ish portable instrument. The 7000 is larger, but it takes plug-in > >modules, which means you can get (or could get) various special-purpose > >plug-ins. That's not too useful unless you have some special applications > >and _can get the right module_. > > I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at least; I may need fancy > stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now. I'll > go with the Tex 465 then, if I can get one, or I'll ask them which they > recommend on a similar level. Adrian, I have a Telequipment D54 scope (dual-beam, 20MHz) surplus to requirement at the moment. It's in good condition, and it's probably rather better than most modern low-end "20MHz" scopes (which tend not to have very good rise times at the top end of their supposed bandwidth). Was it you who mentioned something about difficulty tinning a soldering iron? I wondered if the bit was iron-plated -- they can be a pain to re-tin if they get corroded. I found the best thing for that is a small tin of tip cleaner/tinner; you can get it from RS (cat no 561-533, about ?4) or CPC (cat no SAM-19, ?3.05). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 23 18:16:43 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: pete@mindy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: TRS80 help needed" (Aug 23, 7:23) References: <10108230823.ZM18280@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <10108240016.ZM18848@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 23, 7:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 22, 17:24, Don Maslin wrote: > > Pete, were those the ones that also had a `touch latch' door on them? > > Some of the Otrona Attache's used such drives, but I had no idea that > > they were 40/80 switchable! Do you have any jumper information for > > them? > > They actually made two or three models, so yours may not be switchable. I > do have the jumper information somewhere, and I'll look for it this > evening. Mine is a Canon MDD220. Yes, it's a "touch-latch" door. It has three DIL switch packs: SW1, 4-way, beside the 34-way connector: SW1-1 on for DS1 SW1-2 on for DS2 SW1-3 on for DS3 SW1-4 on for DS4 (40/80-track switching) SW2, 7-way, near the front of the drive: SW2-1 InUse LED with Head Load SW2-2 InUse LED with Door Lock SW2-3 Door Lock with Drive Select SW2-4 Door Lock with InUse SW2-5 Door Lock with Head Load SW2-6 unused SW2-7 Head Load with DrvSel/DoorClosed SW3, 6-way, beside the 34-way connector: SW3-1 Independant Head Load SW3-2 Head Load with Drive Select SW3-3 Motor On with Drive Select SW3-4 Independant Motor On SW3-5 80/40-track (Drive Select 4) SW3-6 80/40-track switching via Drive Select SW3-5 = ON means that 40/80 mode is determined by the position of SW1-4, not by the select signal received from the host: SW3-5 ON, SW3-6 ON, SW1-4 OFF => 40=track mode, LED will be GREEN SW3-5 ON, SW3-6 ON, SW1-4 ON => 80=track mode, LED will be RED There are also 7 pads near the power connector, laid out like this: ___ | \ 7 1 | } 6 2 | } 5 3 | } 4 | } |___/ Normally, these are made 1-6, 2-5, 3-4. To use the 80/40-track switching, cut link 1-6. The MDD210 drive is similar but without switching (80-track only). The MDD6106 is also similar but without switching (I think 40-track only). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 19:33:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp Jobs? In-Reply-To: classiccmp Jobs? (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <20010823130137.D25712-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15237.41180.657453.85450@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 23, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > It's time for me to look for a job. I've been unemployed (voluntarily, > happily so) for a month, and re-establishment of a dependable cash flow is > becoming a top priority. Since I'll be finishing college next May, it's > also time to begin looking for my first post-college position. > > Can a programmer make a career out of classic computing? I dunno...I pick up VMS consulting work from time to time. Of course, it's been on releases of VMS that are merely a few months old, but to the "outside world" anything that's not Windows is "classic" and "obsolete". So YMMV. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Thu Aug 23 19:40:33 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Curricula ... Message-ID: <3B85A281.5766DEBE@magnaspeed.net> > > I don't know how a student with a four year degree can be called > > a professional programmer. It's only after 17 years of programming > > (with 10 years of professional experience) that I now consider > > myself armed and dangerous. I loved taking graduate classes as an > > older student - it was so easy to crush the competition because of > > the depth of experience and exposure that I had. ;-) > There is one (possibly unintentional) idea here that I disagree with. And > it's that learning starts when you go to university and stops when you > leave (the '4 year degree'). Tony - You are absolutely right, and thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and not jumping all over me on it. The part of my education that was "formal" showed me things that I would have never known to explore on my own. The "informal" part is where the experience was developed. Now that I'm older and wiser, I do a lot more of the exploring on my own. Oh, and BTW, I never properly thanked you for the information you shared on the lightpens - I learned a lot out of that discussion. Still haven't gone out to construct a crude one, but at least I have an idea of where to start. (And my soldering skills are going to have to improv significantly.) Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 20:00:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: 2/3 drives (was: TRS80 help needed In-Reply-To: <10108232234.ZM18791@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: > > Quick simple puzzle: why would a drive that steps both disks at the same > > time be significantly SLOWER when DISKCOPY'ing a disk than using separate > > drives? > > Hint: MUCH faster when copying if you write software specifically for > it. On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Because it will read some number of tracks, stepping inward as it does so, > then have to step back to the correct track to start writing. Example: > read tracks 0 to 19 (20 in total, 19 steps), step back 19 tracks, write 20 > tracks (19 steps again); repeat. Total number of steps to copy n tracks is > just less than 3n. If you want to read the tracks back to verify them, > life is even worse, as the total is almost 5n. > > On the other hand, if you do it one track at a time: read a track, write > that track, then step forward one track, the total number of steps to copy > n tracks is n-1 steps. And still only n-1 if you verify each track as you > go. It is further compounded by the single stepper! When it switches to the "other" drive, it finds out that the drive is NOT on the track that it remembers it being on. So, ... It has to "recalibrate" by going to track 0 and counting in again EVERY time it switches "drive". That can, of course be fixed by doing your own software that is optimized for that kind of drive. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From CELang at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 23 20:32:15 2001 From: CELang at worldnet.att.net (CELang) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! Message-ID: <001201c12c3c$9f05c560$ac874b0c@oemcomputer> I phoned my local Radio Shack store. They have 5 1/4" diskettes, double density, three to a package for $1.97. Or I should say they *did* have them. I just cleaned them out. Just amazing the old media Radio Shack has. Diskettes, reel to reel tape, even Beta tapes. If I felt more smart alec I might've asked the clerk if he had any HP 79xx disk cartridges. :) Craig -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:52 PM Subject: RE: Apple II software, system discs, blank disks? Help!! >On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Rich Beaudry wrote: > >> As to a source of 5.25" disks, I hate to mention it, but eBay is >> actually good for this. Bargains can actually be had... > >Try thrift stores! You'll find more than you'll ever know what to do >with, and cheap! Sometimes you can find some new in the box with >shrinkwrap even. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Thu Aug 23 21:01:10 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp Jobs? In-Reply-To: <15237.41180.657453.85450@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno...I pick up VMS consulting work from time to time. Of > course, it's been on releases of VMS that are merely a few months old, > but to the "outside world" anything that's not Windows is "classic" > and "obsolete". So YMMV. > > -Dave That was one of the single most significant M$ marketing coups. What's funny now is to periodically see Windows products labelled as "legacy" compared to Linux. Not as often as I might like. It must leave a bitter taste to those marketers and their PC hardware industry amen corners who always considered M$ products as immune to becoming obsolete except when compared to newer M$ products. -- From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 23 21:27:17 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:43 2005 Subject: Looking for Altair loader program Message-ID: Hello, all: On my continuing quest for Altair stuff, I was wondering if anyone had the code for the 17-byte (I think) paper tape loader program? I'm adding direct support for the loader in the emulator. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 23 22:12:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? References: Message-ID: <007a01c12c4d$d1f3bc00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you want a switchmode PSU you have to know what the load will be. That includes the MINIMAL load, which must be within specified limits, else the unit won't regulate. The problem with S-100 is that most of them have a PSU that's capable of 100x the power needed. IF you design a switcher for 100x the power needed, it won't regulate with the 1x load. I have half a dozen S-100 systems, none of which need more than seven or eight slots populated, and those only when I'm using the ultra fast SRAM boards. In most cases, the load on the +8 is about 4 amps and the load on the bipolar 16 is less than an amp. If you use a 22 slot backplane with the idea in mind that you're going to use the 16 4K SRAM boards that justify such an arrangement, you might need a BIG power supply. If you're going to use a 65K DRAM board, as most S-100 systems use, you won't need a big supply. It's all in making up you mind. If you want to use a switcher that you can afford, then you use a PC PSU at the low end, and something intended for a UNIX server at the upper. It has the necessary power and voltages, but requires that you modify each S-100 board by bypassing its regulators. Is that what you want to do? Keep in mind that these boards were designed to work with the on-board regulation. Whereas a HUGE transformer from a distributor may cost $200 a switcher at 8 volts with enough current to cover the most heavily loaded S-100 will cost more than that. You might get by with a heavy duty bipolar 15-volt switcher if it has an output voltage adjustment. A transformer capable of doing the job will cost $25 from a surplus vendor, though it may cost $30 to ship. Isn't that an easier solution? Check with www.mpja.com, www.mouser.com, and the like and see if you don't find a suitable transformer. If you really can't find one, let me know and I'll send you an S-100 PSU for $5 + freight. I'm sure I've got one or two to support between 15 and 21 slots, though they've been on the shelf since the '70's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Beaudry" To: Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? > >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:44:49 -0400 > >From: "ajp166" > >Subject: Re: Switching PS for S-100 Computer? > > >From: Rich Beaudry > >>I would like to ask if any of you know of an existing, available, > commercial > >>switching power supply that could be used to power an S-100 computer? > > > >WHY???? The bus voltages for S100 are UNREGULATED. > > OK ... so how does this change things? If I have an unregulated 8 Volt > power supply, and the regulators on the cards regulate that down to 5 V, how > is that different from having a regulated SMPS at 8 volts, and still having > the regulators drop it down to 5 Volts. Perhaps stupid, but is it > technically possible, and will it work without harming the boards? > > I thought it would be easier to get a modern supply, so I wouldn't have to > try to build one... Of course, now that I look at the prices for SMPS.... > YIKES! > > >> realize I could get a +5V and +/- 12V supply > >> and just remove the regulation circuitry on the cards > > >Only if its an old LINEAR supply as SMPS designs mostly will not dot it. > > I'm not sure what you mean by that.... > > >The S100 power supply is terminally simple. Three transformers > >{8,16, 16 V AC}, three bridge rectifiers and three caps... thats all > >folks. > > Yup, I know ... Try finding a new, "available from a distributor" > transformer these days that will handle these voltages and currents, and I > will quietly slink off... That's the reason I'm looking for alternatives. I > can't find a transformer that will give me the voltages and currents I need. > Links to these distributors are welcomed... > > Rich B. > > From technos at nerdland.org Thu Aug 23 22:44:07 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Just out of curiosity.. Message-ID: <01C12C2D.80C3A360.technos@nerdland.org> Just out of curiosity, how often do y'all get 'data retreival' requests, where some schmuck tosses you a tape from 1980 and needs the data? Jim From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 23 22:49:13 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <118.3b2cf31.28b728b9@aol.com> test From ernestls at home.com Thu Aug 23 23:09:07 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Just out of curiosity.. In-Reply-To: <01C12C2D.80C3A360.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:44 PM > To: Classiccmp (E-mail) > Subject: Just out of curiosity.. > > > Just out of curiosity, how often do y'all get 'data retreival' requests, > where some schmuck tosses you a tape from 1980 and needs the > data? I've had a few. I had one lady come to me with an old AT$T 6300 case (no keyboard or monitor,) and asked if I would retrieve her Family Tree Maker database files off of the HD. I told her that I would give it a shot but it might take a while. Three or four months later, I was able to locate a monitor and keyboard for it but when I turned it on, the 10meg MFM drive was unbootable. I created another Dos 3.3 boot disk, and was able to access the drive enough to run a drive repair program that took several hours to repair the disk enough for me to retrieve her database files. As a consultant, I really shouldn't have accepted this job but it sure did make me feel good to be able to give her those files, and I learned a thing or two about why hardware standards are better. There was another guy who brought in an old SCO-Unix box with a big tape drive (I can't remember the style but IBM used the same drive on their AS/400s. That was a lot of fun -NOT! There's nothing more fun than trying to retrieve data from an old tape, on an OS that you have never worked with, in a computer that might not even work. It still makes me laugh when I think about it but I was able to get his data off the tape, which the drive promptly ate when I tried to eject it. I still can't remember how I was able to get the data from the tape, but getting the data from HD onto a disk format that he could use with his Mac was the tough part. I still shake my head on that one -of all the stupid jobs to accept. Never again. Ernest From pjschilling at gcstech.net Thu Aug 23 23:31:11 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Just out of curiosity.. In-Reply-To: <01C12C2D.80C3A360.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <00a401c12c55$9ac86070$6900a8c0@pjs> Around the y2k rollover all the time, have not had one for a couple of months now. Phil Schilling GCS Tech pjschilling@gcstech.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:44 PM To: Classiccmp (E-mail) Subject: Just out of curiosity.. Just out of curiosity, how often do y'all get 'data retreival' requests, where some schmuck tosses you a tape from 1980 and needs the data? Jim From chobbs at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 23 23:46:55 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Foxpro (was: Re: Language disco References: Message-ID: <3B85DC3F.A3AEA81D@socal.rr.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Even FoxPro can loosely be considered a computer language... > > > > Bryan > > > > I don't understand all this negative talk about FoxPro. FoxPro is a > powerful and functional 4GL. With the SQL engine that was added, it > became even more useful. > > I rather enjoyed developing applications in FoxPro. I still use Foxpro (the windows version) for various and sundry programming tasks at work.... Hell, I've been known to use Qbasic as well... From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Aug 24 00:05:14 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question References: Message-ID: <3B85E08A.315898F2@tiac.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > My oldest, if we do count the Imlac as a terminal (I call it a computer), > would be that. I know I have quite a few from the very early 70s. When > did the Hazeltine 1500 come in? The Imlac's primary applications seem to be editors and terminal programs for larger systems. Did the Imlac ever have high-level language support? I think we would have to call this the first programmable, smart terminal. Speaking of old terminals, does anyone have schematics for a SOROC IQ-120? From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Thu Aug 23 23:59:18 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: test References: <118.3b2cf31.28b728b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001301c12c59$88b72520$88f8fea9@98box> Test Complete 32768K Bytes Free READY> :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:19 AM Subject: test > test > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 03:55:18 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010823100153.00a99368@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010824095518.00a99368@192.168.1.2> At 09:50 pm 23/08/2001 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Well... It's not that I *can't* solder, it's just that I don't seem to be >> very good at it for some reason. It may be that I've got a dodgy iron (I do >> need to get one with a much smaller tip if I'm going to start desoldering >> ICs), but a) The tip simply won't tin properly, b) It seems to take ages to >> warm anything up enough to get the solder flowing. For example, I must have > >Many beginners are so worried about overheating components that they use >an iron that is far too small (low power element). With the result that >it takes a long time to get the joint up to the right temperature. And >everything else gets hot as well. The result is a lot more damage that if >the right soldering iron was used. > >I consider 25W to be a _minimum_ for a non-temperature-controlled iron. I think that's somewhere around where mine is. Also, it cannot be accused of having a small tip... >I >personally use a 50W temperature-controlled one, and have never had any >problems solding PCBs with it (no lifted tracks or burnt components). I shall have to look at spending some proper money on a temp-controlled iron. >If you can't tin the tip then something is wrong. Either the tip is not >clean (you do wipe it on a damp sponge, I take it) or the solder you are >using is the wrong stuff. You are using resin-core (flux) electronic >solder, aren't you? And not the stuff sold for water pipes. Yes, and yes. However, it refused to take solder from new; there's no rust or anything like that on it - it's just got a built-in solder resist :( > >So don't worry too much if you have problems soldering normal DIN plugs. >We all do :-) Phew! :) >I've been known to take a bit of scrap wood (OK, you don't have that >either, right), :) I could drill holes in the desk... I *am* short of scrap wood, but there's plenty around for the taking. I've just never needed it before. >drill a few holes in it to take the pins and 'plug' the >plug into the wood. It keeps the pins in roughly the right places and >prevents me chasing the plug around the table.... I used a thick piece of cardboard, which worked, but I had to keep moving the plug, since after a bit of wobbling the holes had enlarged sufficiently to reduce the grip. >Still, a vice is something you'll need. Actually, you'll end up needing a >small vice (about 3" across the jaws) on the electronics bench and a >larger one for mechanical work. I've got several at my Liverpool base - but I'm rarely there these days. >> According to the datasheet (from Farnell) I was reading, the original >> didn't have a BRA instruction? That seems somewhat unlikely to me, but is >> it true? > >Yes, it's true. The original 6502 had only conditional branches and >unconditional jumps... Good grief. Mind you, it's easy enough to spoof an unconditional branch, except that it takes an extra instruction. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 03:48:10 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> At 10:57 pm 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> >Actually, I think it's a stupid design. >> >> Erm, I was thinking more of the way it looks on the desk... > >Something which (as you'll come to discover if you hang around on >classiccmp) I don't care much about. It is certainly well down with >respect to functionality. That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are *truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not even sure if it's true of modern computers either. Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;) >> >The 'separate keyboard' seems >> >nice until you move it away from the machine, whereupon the keyboard >> >cable unplugs itself from the DB25 on the main unit. >> >> I never found that to be a problem, although I mostly used it with the > >Well, just about every other plastic-cased PET owner I know thinks that >'SK' stands for 'Stupid Kludge' :-) Heh. Speaking of kludges, I've got a WordCraft dongle (but no WordCraft) if anyone has lost theirs. > >> keyboard in it's looks-like-its-attached position; It would probably have >> been better with an IDC connector (ala the Osbourne). > >Or with locking screws on the DB25... > >> >> > The thing is just >> >too wide to fit on a shelf in a 19" rack. >> >> They're supposed to sit on desks, not racks... > >So? The thing has a GPIB interface, so it's reasonable to assume it's >going to be possibly used to control test equipment. Making it just to >wide to sit on a shelf in a rack is very annoying. It's just another >aspect of the bad design of this case... Were Commodore really thinking that? I know the HP stuff was suited to controlling 'scopes and the like through the 488 bus, but I don't recall them having external drives, printers, etc. controlled via it. ICBW... > > >> Internally it's a mess. The PSU is in a crazy position; the 240V supply > >Agreed. It's really a normal 8032 re-cased, and it doesn't really fit the >new case... Agreed. >The 8296 (same case, totally revised mainboard) is a lot >better in this respect I believe. I've not seen one of those; I did wonder if the expansion board I've got in my 8032 (which turns it into an 8096) would fit, but I don't think there's enough height in the -SK case. >> line is too short and stretches dangerously if the unit is opened to >> 90degrees, the balance is all wrong, and yes - it's just an 8032 board > >I seem to remember it's best to take the monitor off first (Rotate it to >free the tilt/swivel base, then unplug the 9 pin mate-n-lock connector). >Then the case opens without straining too much of the wiring, and without >the darn machine falling over all the time. Yup, one of the cbm-hackers guys kindly provided a set of instructions on how to remove the mainboard with minimum disruption; useful as it means I can get to the voltage regulators and check them (they're fine). > >> rotated (although there are subtle differences between the -SK board and >> the regular board, although that may just be down to different revisions > >I think it's just different revisions. There's no reason for any >electrical changes to the board. Indeed. The secondary cassette port is in a different place, and the monitor signal connector has moved as well. > >> between the machines. The only reason it doesn't need a "special" >> PET-->IEEE cable is because it already has one internally... Useful, > >Sure.... > >> because I've plundered it to test the diskdrives I've now got with the >> regular 8032 (and they work nicely!). Shame they didn't bother to put the >> plastic keys in, so there's the possibility of putting it on upside down - > >Yes, but the average user is not expected to ever unplug the edge >connectors inside the 8032.... Well, true.... Are GPIB connectors still reasonably available? I ask because the ones which came with the machine (& the cable) have sustained some connector damage at some point; they work, but I have to be *really* careful connecting them up. >> luckily that didn't happen to me. Oh yes, the monitor signal & power cables >> go through a connector which floats in the middle of the machine - it looks >> like someone forgot about that until the last second... > >Indeed. I can't remember if the normal 8032 has that or not. No, there's just a bunch of signal wires which drop down onto the main board, and two AC lines which mosey up on into the monitor cabinet (which, awkwardly, are soldered directly to the PSU). > The 8296 >certainly does.... It's useful in that you can remove the monitor easily, >and the rest of the machine (PSU + logic board) is then a lot easier to >work on... With the old 8032, I find a suitably calibrated pile of books behind the machine can be used to rest the back of the monitor, so you can open the case to the extent of the hinge. I used a similar trick with the 8032SK... > >> I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at least; I may need fancy >> stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now. I'll > >I would not class the 465 (or any Tektronix 'scope) as a 'beginner's >instrument' :-). Yes, they can be simple to use, but they have enough >facilities to keep you going for a long time. You are not going to >outgrow it anytime soon. :) I have used 'scopes in the past, I guess it's just a case of remembering how. And maybe (shock, horror) reading the instructions. >There are things it won't do, but you rarely want to do them anyway (how >often do you need an RF spectrum analyser for computer repair, for example >:-)). For displaying waveforms it'll do all you (or I) am likely to need. Indeed... >Suffice it to say that a valved 'scope can still be a very useful >instrument (I'd much rather have a good valved 'scope than a typical >hobbyist grade modern 'scope). But it is going to need a bit of looking >after. You are going to have to recalibrate it from time to time, and >rebalance the amplifiers, and so on. It's not difficult, but it may not >be the sort of thing you want to get into. Perhaps not *just* yet; I'm sure that the desire will come with time... >> Agreed. If I don't get the basics learned first, I'd just end up a spare >> wheel... > >Yes. While I'm sure I could fix this PET (and I could even explain what >I'd done), you'll learn a lot more by doing it yourself. Exactly. Watching an expert at work is very educational, but nothing like rolling the sleeves up and getting in there oneself. And, with the combined skill of this maillist, if I *do* get stuck, I know where to turn for assistance. > >> I'll check that. I had to remove the whole gubbins from my working 8032 >> when the mains filter exploded, but I didn't check any resistances/voltages >> there. All the connections have been un-made then re-made, so if the HR >> usually comes from mucky connectors, that's unlikely. If the cap is going, > >Normally, if the PSU connector goes high resistance, it overheats and the >plastic turns brown. It's easy to spot... Erm, it *is* brown - but a nice factory brown, and it's not slightly crumbly or showing any signs of discolouration... > >> however, moving it around would have no effect. >> >> Is there any way to test for a drying cap? > >YEs, you need an ESR meter (or a good impedance bridge). The former is ESR? >not too expensive (around 50 quid, especially if you buy it as a kit), >and is probably worth getting if you get seriously into doing repairs >(particularly of switch-mode PSUs). The latter is expensive, and is only >worth getting you do a lot of design (or research :-)), or if somebody >gives you a broken one (as happened to me...) :) I shall live in hope... > >[Stewarts] > >> No harm in asking... I may drive out on Saturday and have a look, if >> they're open. > >I can't remember if they open Saturday mornings. I am pretty sure they >close in the afternoon. I've actually had a couple of offers of 'scopes (thanks, chaps), so I shall see what becomes of those first. > >[Logic analysers] > >> GBP500 is reasonable, (actually, this referred to *all* test kit, not just an LA) >>I'd say, so long as the kit is going to last a while >> and do most of the stuff I need of it. I can always sell it on later, of >> course, when/if I need to upgrade. > >It depends on what you want to do. If you are going to work mostly on >classic stuff then a 100MHz 16 channel analyser should be enough (it'll >be useful on all 8 bit micros, PDPs (8s, 11s, 10s, etc), older VAXen, and >so on. If you are intending to do some designing with the latest chips >then you might need something faster in the end. For now, I don't see myself working with the latest & greatest; I've only got one duff PET at the moment, although if I can get this one running again, I may more actively seek broken kit, if only for practice. However, whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment. >> What about one of these software oscilloscopes? I think the only one I've >> seen was a picture on EPE's website, but there must be a few of them >> surely? Mind you, hardly a portable device if you need a pentium PC within >> reach... > >I'd not bother with them. They are not exactly convenient to use (and you >have to get a PC to put them in (or at least I would...). They are >digital sampling storage scopes (which is nice), but I suspect a good old >analogue scope is more useful to you at the moment. I tend to agree. I could use a parallel-port device relatively easily (I have a couple of laptops), but space is of a sufficent premium here that it would genuinely be easier to have a self-contained device. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 04:09:43 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <002101c12bd6$8e533ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010824100943.00a99368@192.168.1.2> At 07:21 am 23/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: [PhD's] >Actually, it's not as unusual as you may think. Some folks don't know how to do >anything useful, so they get more advanced degrees instead. I know of several >folks who have multiple PhD's, not that it increases my respect for them, but it >does indicate they've completed a major piece of academic work with a minimum of >supervision. There is definitely an element of that, although R&D does make an excellent outlet for the head-in-the-clouds types. Some of these people have designed some exceptionally clever bits of kit; even if some of that kit verges on the brutal. For instance, I know the chap who invented a thing called the "Frit Welder", or "Fritter" as it's known. This repairs mains (and higher) voltage AC lines by connecting live directly to neutral for 1/2 cycle; the resulting surge either repairs corroded joints by melting them (thus reforming the joint), or blowing a hole in the ground so the engineers know where to dig... Apparently, the machine jumps when its used... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 04:06:04 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <005901c12bd8$a3f5a680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200108211830.OAA12612@wordstock.com> <3.0.6.32.20010821221808.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822095827.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010822201726.00a74cb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010823100153.00a99368@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010824100604.0155aab8@192.168.1.2> At 07:36 am 23/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: [soldering] >These are problems we all wrestle with and yet manage to get handled. Practice, > though it really doesn't make "perfect" does make better, and lack of it will >make you rusty, if you avoid it for a while. Wanting to avoid soldering and, in >general, dis/re-assembling things is wise. It can't always be avoided, however. This is true. I'd like to get the knack, however, as I'd like to be able to build my own devices in the future - mainly for fun, but perhaps to earn money as well - especially if I get sick of writing VB for a living (which is definitely starting to happen). I think I'll need to move soon: I'm getting a tad short of space here... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 24 04:35:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <002f01c12c80$1b9266e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> With respect to the Commodore choice to put HPIB on their computers, as opposed to a parallel port, there was a fellow here in Denver who cooked up a circuit that allowed one to attach a then-common EPSON printer to the HPIB, thereby making the computer into a useful tool. He became rich beyond his wildest dreams, and started a company called "Progressive Peripherals" which may in fact still be in operation. Since there were, at the time Commodore put these devices on the market, external HPIB-interfaced HDC's, HDD units, FD units, etc, including printers, it wasn't a TERRIBLE choice, though it wasn't necessarily the path to the cheapest solution. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 2:48 AM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) > At 10:57 pm 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: > >> >Actually, I think it's a stupid design. > >> > >> Erm, I was thinking more of the way it looks on the desk... > > > >Something which (as you'll come to discover if you hang around on > >classiccmp) I don't care much about. It is certainly well down with > >respect to functionality. > > That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are > *truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not > even sure if it's true of modern computers either. > > Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;) > > > >> >The 'separate keyboard' seems > >> >nice until you move it away from the machine, whereupon the keyboard > >> >cable unplugs itself from the DB25 on the main unit. > >> > >> I never found that to be a problem, although I mostly used it with the > > > >Well, just about every other plastic-cased PET owner I know thinks that > >'SK' stands for 'Stupid Kludge' :-) > > Heh. Speaking of kludges, I've got a WordCraft dongle (but no WordCraft) if > anyone has lost theirs. > > > > >> keyboard in it's looks-like-its-attached position; It would probably have > >> been better with an IDC connector (ala the Osbourne). > > > >Or with locking screws on the DB25... > > > >> > >> > The thing is just > >> >too wide to fit on a shelf in a 19" rack. > >> > >> They're supposed to sit on desks, not racks... > > > >So? The thing has a GPIB interface, so it's reasonable to assume it's > >going to be possibly used to control test equipment. Making it just to > >wide to sit on a shelf in a rack is very annoying. It's just another > >aspect of the bad design of this case... > > Were Commodore really thinking that? I know the HP stuff was suited to > controlling 'scopes and the like through the 488 bus, but I don't recall > them having external drives, printers, etc. controlled via it. ICBW... > > > > > > >> Internally it's a mess. The PSU is in a crazy position; the 240V supply > > > >Agreed. It's really a normal 8032 re-cased, and it doesn't really fit the > >new case... > > Agreed. > > >The 8296 (same case, totally revised mainboard) is a lot > >better in this respect I believe. > > I've not seen one of those; I did wonder if the expansion board I've got in > my 8032 (which turns it into an 8096) would fit, but I don't think there's > enough height in the -SK case. > > >> line is too short and stretches dangerously if the unit is opened to > >> 90degrees, the balance is all wrong, and yes - it's just an 8032 board > > > >I seem to remember it's best to take the monitor off first (Rotate it to > >free the tilt/swivel base, then unplug the 9 pin mate-n-lock connector). > >Then the case opens without straining too much of the wiring, and without > >the darn machine falling over all the time. > > Yup, one of the cbm-hackers guys kindly provided a set of instructions on > how to remove the mainboard with minimum disruption; useful as it means I > can get to the voltage regulators and check them (they're fine). > > > > >> rotated (although there are subtle differences between the -SK board and > >> the regular board, although that may just be down to different revisions > > > >I think it's just different revisions. There's no reason for any > >electrical changes to the board. > > Indeed. The secondary cassette port is in a different place, and the > monitor signal connector has moved as well. > > > > >> between the machines. The only reason it doesn't need a "special" > >> PET-->IEEE cable is because it already has one internally... Useful, > > > >Sure.... > > > >> because I've plundered it to test the diskdrives I've now got with the > >> regular 8032 (and they work nicely!). Shame they didn't bother to put the > >> plastic keys in, so there's the possibility of putting it on upside down - > > > >Yes, but the average user is not expected to ever unplug the edge > >connectors inside the 8032.... > > Well, true.... Are GPIB connectors still reasonably available? I ask > because the ones which came with the machine (& the cable) have sustained > some connector damage at some point; they work, but I have to be *really* > careful connecting them up. > > >> luckily that didn't happen to me. Oh yes, the monitor signal & power cables > >> go through a connector which floats in the middle of the machine - it looks > >> like someone forgot about that until the last second... > > > >Indeed. I can't remember if the normal 8032 has that or not. > > No, there's just a bunch of signal wires which drop down onto the main > board, and two AC lines which mosey up on into the monitor cabinet (which, > awkwardly, are soldered directly to the PSU). > > > The 8296 > >certainly does.... It's useful in that you can remove the monitor easily, > >and the rest of the machine (PSU + logic board) is then a lot easier to > >work on... > > With the old 8032, I find a suitably calibrated pile of books behind the > machine can be used to rest the back of the monitor, so you can open the > case to the extent of the hinge. I used a similar trick with the 8032SK... > > > > >> I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at least; I may need fancy > >> stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now. I'll > > > >I would not class the 465 (or any Tektronix 'scope) as a 'beginner's > >instrument' :-). Yes, they can be simple to use, but they have enough > >facilities to keep you going for a long time. You are not going to > >outgrow it anytime soon. > > :) I have used 'scopes in the past, I guess it's just a case of remembering > how. And maybe (shock, horror) reading the instructions. > > >There are things it won't do, but you rarely want to do them anyway (how > >often do you need an RF spectrum analyser for computer repair, for example > >:-)). For displaying waveforms it'll do all you (or I) am likely to need. > > Indeed... > > >Suffice it to say that a valved 'scope can still be a very useful > >instrument (I'd much rather have a good valved 'scope than a typical > >hobbyist grade modern 'scope). But it is going to need a bit of looking > >after. You are going to have to recalibrate it from time to time, and > >rebalance the amplifiers, and so on. It's not difficult, but it may not > >be the sort of thing you want to get into. > > Perhaps not *just* yet; I'm sure that the desire will come with time... > > >> Agreed. If I don't get the basics learned first, I'd just end up a spare > >> wheel... > > > >Yes. While I'm sure I could fix this PET (and I could even explain what > >I'd done), you'll learn a lot more by doing it yourself. > > Exactly. Watching an expert at work is very educational, but nothing like > rolling the sleeves up and getting in there oneself. And, with the combined > skill of this maillist, if I *do* get stuck, I know where to turn for > assistance. > > > > >> I'll check that. I had to remove the whole gubbins from my working 8032 > >> when the mains filter exploded, but I didn't check any resistances/voltages > >> there. All the connections have been un-made then re-made, so if the HR > >> usually comes from mucky connectors, that's unlikely. If the cap is going, > > > >Normally, if the PSU connector goes high resistance, it overheats and the > >plastic turns brown. It's easy to spot... > > Erm, it *is* brown - but a nice factory brown, and it's not slightly > crumbly or showing any signs of discolouration... > > > > >> however, moving it around would have no effect. > >> > >> Is there any way to test for a drying cap? > > > >YEs, you need an ESR meter (or a good impedance bridge). The former is > > ESR? > > >not too expensive (around 50 quid, especially if you buy it as a kit), > >and is probably worth getting if you get seriously into doing repairs > >(particularly of switch-mode PSUs). The latter is expensive, and is only > >worth getting you do a lot of design (or research :-)), or if somebody > >gives you a broken one (as happened to me...) > > :) I shall live in hope... > > > > >[Stewarts] > > > >> No harm in asking... I may drive out on Saturday and have a look, if > >> they're open. > > > >I can't remember if they open Saturday mornings. I am pretty sure they > >close in the afternoon. > > I've actually had a couple of offers of 'scopes (thanks, chaps), so I shall > see what becomes of those first. > > > > >[Logic analysers] > > > >> GBP500 is reasonable, > > (actually, this referred to *all* test kit, not just an LA) > > >>I'd say, so long as the kit is going to last a while > >> and do most of the stuff I need of it. I can always sell it on later, of > >> course, when/if I need to upgrade. > > > >It depends on what you want to do. If you are going to work mostly on > >classic stuff then a 100MHz 16 channel analyser should be enough (it'll > >be useful on all 8 bit micros, PDPs (8s, 11s, 10s, etc), older VAXen, and > >so on. If you are intending to do some designing with the latest chips > >then you might need something faster in the end. > > For now, I don't see myself working with the latest & greatest; I've only > got one duff PET at the moment, although if I can get this one running > again, I may more actively seek broken kit, if only for practice. > > However, whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably > start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything > where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC > chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment. > > >> What about one of these software oscilloscopes? I think the only one I've > >> seen was a picture on EPE's website, but there must be a few of them > >> surely? Mind you, hardly a portable device if you need a pentium PC within > >> reach... > > > >I'd not bother with them. They are not exactly convenient to use (and you > >have to get a PC to put them in (or at least I would...). They are > >digital sampling storage scopes (which is nice), but I suspect a good old > >analogue scope is more useful to you at the moment. > > I tend to agree. I could use a parallel-port device relatively easily (I > have a couple of laptops), but space is of a sufficent premium here that it > would genuinely be easier to have a self-contained device. > > > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 24 04:47:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK References: <3.0.6.32.20010824100943.00a99368@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <003701c12c81$d034a940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Having worked in R&D most of my last 25 years, I've got to disagree about the notion that it's a good place for "head-in-the-clouds" types. Generally, R&D has not only to develop entirely new technologies, but has to take the current set of needs and cook up ways of meeting those needs with currently avaialble technology and get the job done before the market window closes. Head-in-the-clouds types may excel at basic research, but often don't fit in the "get-the-job-done-now" environment that business demands. The PhD is proof of little other than the ability to get a pretty sizeable job, often research, done with a minimum of external hand-holding and guidance. To get that done, a fellow has to be diligent, focused, and bent on getting from one end of the job to the other. He doesn't have to be terribly imaginative, terribly resourceful, or particularly bright. He does have to be a good and determined worker, though. He's got to be able to take a set of requirements do what he believes will satisfy them, then justify what he's done within the framework of those requirements to defend the notion that he's done what was required. If he manages that, they'll call him Doctor. People like that are well suited to basic research, as they have the discipline to adhere to a set of requirements and dig out the required information, then present it appropriately. That seldom helps with product development where the cycle is short and the goal is to apply currently available solutions to an already-defined problem. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:09 AM Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK > At 07:21 am 23/08/2001 -0600, you wrote: > > [PhD's] > >Actually, it's not as unusual as you may think. Some folks don't know how > to do > >anything useful, so they get more advanced degrees instead. I know of > several > >folks who have multiple PhD's, not that it increases my respect for them, > but it > >does indicate they've completed a major piece of academic work with a > minimum of > >supervision. > > There is definitely an element of that, although R&D does make an excellent > outlet for the head-in-the-clouds types. Some of these people have designed > some exceptionally clever bits of kit; even if some of that kit verges on > the brutal. For instance, I know the chap who invented a thing called the > "Frit Welder", or "Fritter" as it's known. This repairs mains (and higher) > voltage AC lines by connecting live directly to neutral for 1/2 cycle; the > resulting surge either repairs corroded joints by melting them (thus > reforming the joint), or blowing a hole in the ground so the engineers know > where to dig... > > Apparently, the machine jumps when its used... > Cheers! > Ade. > -- > B-Racing: B where it's at :-) > http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Aug 24 06:27:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256A6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I've been told that LISP stands for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses. > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? APL? -dq From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 24 07:11:05 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: terminal inventiveness (was Re: an odd question In-Reply-To: <3B85E08A.315898F2@tiac.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010824071105.008a1bd0@ubanproductions.com> Interesting that you should mention Hazeltime. A person that used to work for Imlac said that Hazeltine bought Imlac out at one point. Yes, there was a fortran compiler for the Imlac. --tom At 01:05 AM 8/24/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> My oldest, if we do count the Imlac as a terminal (I call it a computer), >> would be that. I know I have quite a few from the very early 70s. When >> did the Hazeltine 1500 come in? > >The Imlac's primary applications seem to be editors and terminal programs >for larger systems. Did the Imlac ever have high-level language support? > >I think we would have to call this the first programmable, smart terminal. > >Speaking of old terminals, does anyone have schematics for a SOROC IQ-120? > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 24 07:26:34 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Just out of curiosity.. In-Reply-To: <01C12C2D.80C3A360.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010824072116.02137490@pc> At 11:44 PM 8/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >Just out of curiosity, how often do y'all get 'data retreival' requests, >where some schmuck tosses you a tape from 1980 and needs the >data? My Terak page has generated a few. One nice request from a university came with the promise of sending me some old Terak hardware for my trouble. If I'd charged them my usual consulting rates, that hardware cost me a fair chunk of cash, but I didn't look at it that way. This ties back to someone's recent question about making a living with old hardware and software. There are people making a living at that. Unfortunately, I'd guess it was one of those careers you inherit from your earlier work, as opposed to being able to open up a new shop for data conversion. You'd need an extensive collection of working systems and/or working I/O devices for that, and you could spend a lot of time developing specialized hardware and software for decoding marginal media. For example, there's a list member who recovers old tapes by digitizing the tracks and performing software-based recovery techniques. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 24 07:36:50 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <002f01c12c80$1b9266e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010824072841.02130280@pc> At 03:35 AM 8/24/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >With respect to the Commodore choice to put HPIB on their computers, as opposed >to a parallel port, there was a fellow here in Denver who cooked up a circuit >that allowed one to attach a then-common EPSON printer to the HPIB, thereby >making the computer into a useful tool. He became rich beyond his wildest >dreams, and started a company called "Progressive Peripherals" which may in fact >still be in operation. Progressive Peripherals and Software (PP&S) were most active in the Amiga market for some time, although I don't know what happened to them in the end. They made frame grabbers, genlocks, hard disk interfaces and processor upgrades, and publishing a number of software packages. I think they also had products for Mac, Atari ST and even PC. - John P.S. Speaking of reformers, Carrie Nation's hatchet would do a good job chopping off extraneous quoted text at the bottom of messages. Please do. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 24 08:41:13 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Google wants your Usenet CDs Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010824083913.0218d100@pc> >From http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/archive_hunt.html : Help Us Complete the Usenet Archive Google is attempting to compile the most complete archive possible of Usenet posts, and we need help doing it. We are looking for archives pre-dating 1995, in particular the "NetNews CD Series". These CDs were commercially available through Sterling Software and later through CD Publishing Corporation between early 1992 and 1995. The CDs were released separately and each CD covers approximately a two week time span. We've already located NetNews CDs #6 - #31, which cover March 92 through January 93. If you own NetNews CDs or if you know somebody who does, please contact us at groups-support@google.com. We will pay a finder's fee for any NetNews CD we do not own already. Thanks for helping us build the most authoritative Usenet archive online. Thanks, The Google Team From mldrew at drewtech.com Fri Aug 24 09:14:50 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Michael L. Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: test References: <118.3b2cf31.28b728b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B86615A.6D06B46C@drewtech.com> Test Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > test -- =============================================================================== Michael L. Drew Drew Technologies, Inc. 41 Enterprise Drive Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Phone: (734) 623-8080 Fax: (734) 623-8082 =============================================================================== From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 09:40:58 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) (Adrian Vickers) References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <15238.26490.346798.802855@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 24, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >Something which (as you'll come to discover if you hang around on > >classiccmp) I don't care much about. It is certainly well down with > >respect to functionality. > > That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are > *truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not > even sure if it's true of modern computers either. > > Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;) I dunno about that. In the past 24 hours, I've worked on the innards of an SGI Onyx, an AlphaServer 2100A, and a PDP11/34a. I'll take the 25-year-old PDP11 over any of them, physical design wise. Having seen the inside of a recent PeeCee a few weeks ago, there's NOTHING elegant going on there. Now a Cray T90 (a relatively recent Cray vector supercomputer) with its motorized zero-insertion-force connectors...now THAT'S elegant. But it could afford to be. > However, whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably > start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything > where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC > chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment. PIC chips kick butt. They're wonderful. I use the CCS C compiler, which is very nice and comes with LOTS of example code in the form of "drivers" for various popular chips (I2C EEPROMs, Dallas Semiconductor serially-interfaced RTC chips, iButtons, etc) that have proven extremely useful. It also directly controls the PicStart programmer as well as a few others. The downside to the CCS C compiler is that it runs under Windoze...not having any (and not wanting any) Windoze crap here, I fired up a copy of VirtualPC on my G4 Mac; it runs nicely under that. There are a LOT of different PIC chips available, from the older 16C54 to the incredibly popular 16F84 (the only one anyone ever hears about, rather stupidly IMO because there are MUCH better ones), to the 16C745 with an on-chip USB interface. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 10:44:42 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <002f01c12c80$1b9266e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010824164442.0106cb98@192.168.1.2> At 03:35 am 24/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Since there were, at the time Commodore put these devices on the market, >external HPIB-interfaced HDC's, HDD units, FD units, etc, including printers, it >wasn't a TERRIBLE choice, though it wasn't necessarily the path to the cheapest >solution. I don't dispute it - in fact, the idea of intelligent peripherals is an excellent one; why waste the computing power of the host on menial tasks like driving a printer, or disk drive? As you say, it wasn't necessarily the cheapest route available, but I'd argue it would be just as cheap to do something like that now - since processors, RAM, etc. are all dirt cheap. In fact, isn't that what SCSI is all about? Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 10:42:06 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <003701c12c81$d034a940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010824100943.00a99368@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010824164206.0106c4e0@192.168.1.2> At 03:47 am 24/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Having worked in R&D most of my last 25 years, I've got to disagree about the >notion that it's a good place for "head-in-the-clouds" types. Please don't take me the wrong way - it was not meant in a derogatory way at all. There's plenty of call for blue-sky research (as I've heard it called). And off-the-wall ideas are often good ones, e.g. the Fritter. >Generally, R&D >has not only to develop entirely new technologies, but has to take the current >set of needs and cook up ways of meeting those needs with currently avaialble >technology and get the job done before the market window closes. >Head-in-the-clouds types may excel at basic research, but often don't fit in the >"get-the-job-done-now" environment that business demands. Agreed. However, you have to appreciate the history of this place: It started life as part of the nationalised UK electricity industry. As a nationalised industry, "value for money", "return on investment" and other such terms had no meaning. As my Dad said - every three months a big tipper wagon turned up and deposited several million pounds of cash in the car park. No-one ever questioned where or how it was spent, just that it was... Basically, until privatisation in 1989, the word "profit" did not enter into the vocabulary of this place. Gradually, since 1989, this has changed; and funnily enough many of the PhDs have left for pastures new. Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 24 11:02:14 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: where to find old ICs ? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010824110214.00880df0@ubanproductions.com> I am trying to collect a few spares of some old ICs so that I can continue to maintain my older DEC PDP equipment. Last night I diagnosed a bad 74H00 in my PDP 11/45 and when I realized that it was a hard to find component and that it was only going to get more difficult to find, I created a list of parts which I might need and do not have. If anyone has additional information about any of these parts (data sheets for the ROMs, etc.) or information on possible substitutes, it would be appreciated. Also, if you know of a source for these parts, that would be good too. --tnx --tom DM8598-AB ROM DM8598-AC ROM DM8598-AD ROM 3101 256x4 ROM 3101A 256x4 ROM 74187 256x4 ROM 74182-1 look ahead carry generator (fast version ?) 74194 4-bit bidirectional universal shift register 74H01 quad 2-in nand gates w/open collector outputs 74H10 triple 3 input nand gates 74H21 dual 4-in and gates 74H22 dual 4-in nand gates w/open collector outputs 74H30 8-in nand gate 74H40 dual 4-in nand buffers 74H50 dual 2-wide 2-in and-or-invert gates (one gate expandable) 74H74 dual d-type positive edge triggered flip flops w/preset & clear 74S15 triple 3-in and gates w/open collector outputs 74S65 4-2-3-2-in and-or-invert gate w/open collector output 74S74-45 fast version (4.5ns) of 74S74 ? Where these parts made by or for DEC? DEC380 DEC380A DEC8001 DEC8251-1 DEC8815 DEC8815A DEC8875 DEC8881 DEC8885 DEC9318 Also some transistors: DEC4258 transistor DEC30098 transistor From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 11:20:42 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010824164442.0106cb98@192.168.1.2> References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824164442.0106cb98@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <01Aug24.122702edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Ok, today I got my new NeXT Cube configured and recognizing our network, including the ability to access both Netware and Appletalk volumes from the Cube. I used the Netware client included with NS 3.3 and then installed the CAPer Appletalk client. My question for those that use NeXT machines on the list is: what is a good POP3/SMTP email client for NeXTStep? -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Fri Aug 24 13:05:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <15238.26490.346798.802855@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are > > *truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not > > even sure if it's true of modern computers either. > > > > Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;) > > I dunno about that. In the past 24 hours, I've worked on the > innards of an SGI Onyx, an AlphaServer 2100A, and a PDP11/34a. I'll > take the 25-year-old PDP11 over any of them, physical design wise. I think he might have been referring to older micros, Dave. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 15:42:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) (Absurdly Obtuse) References: <15238.26490.346798.802855@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15238.48198.774670.468536@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 24, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > I dunno about that. In the past 24 hours, I've worked on the > > innards of an SGI Onyx, an AlphaServer 2100A, and a PDP11/34a. I'll > > take the 25-year-old PDP11 over any of them, physical design wise. > > I think he might have been referring to older micros, Dave. Ahh, in that case, I agree. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From west at tseinc.com Sat Aug 25 05:27:49 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: IC identification Message-ID: <001101c12d50$983c3240$0101a8c0@jay> I know this is listed in my HP docs somewhere, but I can't find what I did with that binder. So.... Anyone know what this is called these days, or if there are any direct substitutes? It's part of a core sense amplifier circuit: 14 pin DIP IC, "RCA 1858-0001" Thanks! Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010825/7b360b63/attachment.html From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Aug 24 17:31:31 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #698 In-Reply-To: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >From: Jeff Hellige > >...My >question for those that use NeXT machines on the list is: what is a >good POP3/SMTP email client for NeXTStep? PopOver, look on the peanuts or peak archives (mmmm...let's see... http://www.peak.org/next/apps/mail/ and look for PopOver.1.6.... ) It's not really so much of a client as an interface which acts as a client to the POP server, then prensents the mail it picks up to the NeXT Mail program. Pretty easy to set up and use, works pretty well, and gets to the NeXT Mail user interface which is not bad IMHO. Fair warning: I'm still trying to get sendmail to work from my NeXT. I'm doing something wrong, that's for sure. I can only get it to go by forcing the first hop, ie. <@hal.space.swri.edu:destination@destination.com>. I don't think that's got anything to do with PopOver on my system, but it's good evidence that I don't know everything about NeXTs and mail. - Mark From ken at seefried.com Fri Aug 24 17:37:03 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010824223703.551.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Jumping in late, I know, but when I was at Georgia Tech (mid- to late-80s), we were taught x86 assembly. There was a real focus on the concept that "look folks, there's an awful lot going on under the hood that you might want to be aware of when you write that Pascal (or C, or Lisp, or whatever) program and the details matter". For that lesson, x86 asm is a pretty good, if painful, object lesson. Much of GaTech was like that. Oh, yeah...and we learned Modula-2 from Kim Kings book for undergrad OS. Ken From jrice at texoma.net Fri Aug 24 17:41:51 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824164442.0106cb98@192.168.1.2> <01Aug24.122702edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B86D82F.193CBCC9@texoma.net> I probably should be ashamed, but I read my mail on a Wintel box. If I check mail on the NeXT, I just use the Mailman web interface server from my ISP to read it as a web page. I've downloaded PopOver from Peak so I could access my pop server and still use mail.app. Just haven't had the time to set it up yet. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Jeff Hellige wrote: > > Ok, today I got my new NeXT Cube configured and recognizing > our network, including the ability to access both Netware and > Appletalk volumes from the Cube. I used the Netware client included > with NS 3.3 and then installed the CAPer Appletalk client. My > question for those that use NeXT machines on the list is: what is a > good POP3/SMTP email client for NeXTStep? > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mranalog at home.com Fri Aug 24 18:06:47 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Looking for Altair loader program Message-ID: <3B86DE06.D7C6C64F@home.com> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." said: > Hello, all: > On my continuing quest for Altair stuff, I was wondering if anyone had the > code for the 17-byte (I think) paper tape loader program? > I'm adding direct support for the loader in the emulator. I'm on digest. If no one has answered yet, here goes - From the 4K Basic version 3.2 manual "Getting Started With BASIC" Appendix A. (All values in Octal) * Loading from paper tape and NOT using a REV 0 Serial I/O Board OR using a REV 0 SIO Board on which the update changing the flag bit has been been made. ADDRESS DATA 000 041 001 175 002 037 (For 8K, for 4K use 017) 003 061 004 022 005 000 006 333 007 000 010 017 011 330 012 333 013 001 014 275 015 310 016 055 017 167 020 300 021 351 022 003 023 000 * Loading from paper tape and using a REV 0 Serial I/O Board on which the update changing the flag bit has not been been made. ADDRESS DATA 000 041 001 175 002 037 (For 8K, for 4K use 017) 003 061 004 023 005 000 006 333 007 000 010 346 011 040 012 310 013 333 014 001 015 275 016 310 017 055 020 167 021 300 022 351 023 003 024 000 * Loading from audio cassette ADDRESS DATA 000 041 001 175 (Handwritten crossout of 175 and 256 added)????? 002 037 (For 8K, for 4K use 017) 003 061 004 022 005 000 006 333 007 006 010 017 011 330 012 333 013 007 014 275 015 310 016 055 017 167 020 300 021 351 022 003 023 000 Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 18:11:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #698 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > PopOver, look on the peanuts or peak archives (mmmm...let's see... >http://www.peak.org/next/apps/mail/ and look for PopOver.1.6.... ) > It's not really so much of a client as an interface which acts as a >client to the POP server, then prensents the mail it picks up to the NeXT >Mail program. Pretty easy to set up and use, works pretty well, and gets to >the NeXT Mail user interface which is not bad IMHO. Thanks, I'll check it out. I looked at Peak's archive today and noticed a few programs that seemed to fit that type, but wasn't sure about them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Fri Aug 24 18:18:46 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... In-Reply-To: <3B86D82F.193CBCC9@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > I probably should be ashamed, but I read my mail on a Wintel box. If I > check mail on the NeXT, I just use the Mailman web interface server from > my ISP to read it as a web page. I've downloaded PopOver from Peak so I > could access my pop server and still use mail.app. Just haven't had the > time to set it up yet. Is it impossible to run Sendmail and Procmail on a NeXT? Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 16:49:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Curricula ... In-Reply-To: <3B85A281.5766DEBE@magnaspeed.net> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Aug 23, 1 07:40:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1432 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010824/e773520a/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 18:21:22 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256A6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > But could any language have punctuation more demented than C? On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > APL? Definitely. Although that was more an issue of operators than punctuation. There was a cartoon in Datamation? of an Egyptologist explaining to his colleague that the hieroglyphics were a subset of APL. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 17:46:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010824095518.00a99368@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 24, 1 09:55:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1861 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010824/615b51a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 17:29:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 24, 1 09:48:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9179 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010824/886e2e2b/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 18:29:45 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... In-Reply-To: Re: another NeXT question... (Absurdly Obtuse) References: <3B86D82F.193CBCC9@texoma.net> Message-ID: <15238.58217.355099.229029@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 24, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Is it impossible to run Sendmail and Procmail on a NeXT? Not at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 24 18:57:37 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 24, 2001 07:29:45 PM Message-ID: <200108242357.f7ONvbZ08526@shell1.aracnet.com> Since it sounds like there are one or two people new to NeXT getting systems setup right now. Here is a tip. Look for the "Lighthouse" apps. There are free licenses available with them and they'll give you some nice commercial apps to run on your systems. Zane From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 19:24:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... In-Reply-To: <200108242357.f7ONvbZ08526@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200108242357.f7ONvbZ08526@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Since it sounds like there are one or two people new to NeXT getting systems >setup right now. Here is a tip. Look for the "Lighthouse" apps. There are >free licenses available with them and they'll give you some nice commercial >apps to run on your systems. Not exactly new to NeXT's...just putting one on a network for the first time! I do have a shareware/demo CD from about '95, a 'NeXTware' disk. It has Omniweb and a few other apps. on it. Too bad the dem of SoftPC is for the Intel version of NeXTstep only! This Cube is actually my third NeXT over the years and it's actually being put to some good use. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 24 19:31:14 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010825013114.00a903e0@192.168.1.2> At 11:29 pm 24/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are >> *truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not >> even sure if it's true of modern computers either. >> >> Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;) > >If 'internally' covers electronic desgin, then you've clearly never >worked on PDP11/45s, PERQs, HP9100 calculators, or a dozen other older >machines I could name! Nope, afraid not. You could say I missed the "golden age" of computing (although I'd say I didn't); having got into it in the early '80s (about '81 I think). Bear in mind I was at primary school at the time, so I have a good excuse.... :) My first "real" computer was a QL, and at various times I owned/used an MZ-80K and an 8032-SK. I used an HP briefly (I've no idea which one it was now) before getting dragged - inevitably - into the Wintel world, from which I have never emerged. I write this on a dual P3 1GHz box running[1] Win2K... So I missed the world of PDP8, 11, etc., and although I've used various Vaxen (the 8800 being the only one I can remember the designation of), an IBM m/f (again, I forget it's number), and an elderly Tandon, Wintel has been my mainstay. However useful the Wintel box, it's (to use a technical term) dull as f**k. My interest in the late '70s and '80s machine stems entirely from the fact I'm - basically - catching up with my mis-spent yoof... >I often think that many good design tricks were discovered at least >twice. They were commonly used in minicomputers, then forgotten about >(for all almost all of them were documented) and then re-discovered for >microprocessors... That sounds about right. I also wonder how many tricks have been lost & rediscovered several times....not necessarily in the field of computing. [Too wide for the rack] > >So whether it was Commodore's original intention that PETs be used to >control lab instruments, it is clear that they were used for this. So >making a case just to wide to sit inside a rack (this case was first sold >long after the PET) seems to be somewhat silly. Possibly - but I suspect Commodore were aiming at the style-concious businessman, much like (say) Dell and their sleek black PCs are these days. After all, a computer on the desk in the early '80s would be a fashion statement, a "look at me, I'm sophisticated and 'up there with the new technology'". >> controlling 'scopes and the like through the 488 bus, but I don't recall >> them having external drives, printers, etc. controlled via it. ICBW... > >I think this is lack of experience again. Most classic HP machines have GPIB Probably - again, I joined in in the early '80s, so anything that predates that I'm unlikely to have used, or even seen... > >> Well, true.... Are GPIB connectors still reasonably available? I ask > >I've never seen the combinded plug-and-socket ones for sale other than on >cables (these cables are certainly still available, at a price). >Individual plugs and sockets are not hard to get in solder-tail, PCB >mounting or IDC versions (Try RS or Farnell -- Maplin no longer do them >in useful sizes :-(). Predictable. When I was first doing electronics (again, mid '80s), Maplin was the be all and end all of suppliers. Then their catalogues dropped the fancy artwork and became "professional", and somehow the range of products became less useful... >The things that are not easy to find are the >screw-down posts with M3.5 therads used on the chassis mount connector >for the jackscrews on the cable connector to screw into. The quickest way >for me to get those is to make them from scratch. More normal people, I >guess, ask a friendly local model engineer... Should I add a lathe to my list of requirements? :) >> No, there's just a bunch of signal wires which drop down onto the main >> board, and two AC lines which mosey up on into the monitor cabinet (which, >> awkwardly, are soldered directly to the PSU). > >Thats' the sort of time that I do a non-original mod and add a 2-pin >in-line connectort to the monitor power wires (Molex 0.062" or 0.093" >series, AMP mate-n-lock or similar). That makes sense. TBH, any kind of in-line connector would do - except maybe a DIN type (for the soldering reasons given elsewhere)... >> With the old 8032, I find a suitably calibrated pile of books behind the >> machine can be used to rest the back of the monitor, so you can open the >> case to the extent of the hinge. I used a similar trick with the 8032SK... > >FWIW< the HP9100 calculator has a hingged top case (containing the PSU >and CRT + driver boards). It would latch in a reasonably open position, >but could be opened right back if necessary. HP actually sold a chain >with suitable end fittings to fix to the 2 parts of the case so that the >unit could be held further open than the internal latch would manage. The Sharp MZ-80K had a device somewhat like that I've seen on drop-down shelving, a kind of encapsulated "bonnet stay". Nice, but a PITA if you need to do work at the back of the machine. If I needed total access to the inside of a PET, I'd probably unscrew the hinge. >> :) I have used 'scopes in the past, I guess it's just a case of remembering >> how. And maybe (shock, horror) reading the instructions. > >Get the real Tektronix manuals (user and service if they are different) >if you end up getting a 465. There's a lot of good information in such >manuals, and they are worth reading. I've asked the old man to see if he can dig me up a 'scope; meanwhile I've got two other offers - so one way or the other I should end up OK. Not sure if it'll be a Tek though. >> >> Is there any way to test for a drying cap? >> > >> >YEs, you need an ESR meter (or a good impedance bridge). The former is >> >> ESR? > >Effective Series Resistance. > >Remember in an electrolytic capacitor, the electrolyte is not the >dielectric (that's an oxide film on the surface of the +ve plate). The >electrolyte is actaully the -ve plate of the capacitor.Which means that >when the capactitor dries up, it behaves as though it has in internal >series resistance. That is why dried-up capacitors don't work too well. > >An ESR meter displays the effective balue of this ineternal resistance >(the lower, the better, of course). I shall have to read that again in the morning - it went all blurry just now ;) >> However, whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably >> start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything >> where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC >> chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment. > >A PIC Is a type of microcontroller (chip containing microprocessor and >memory, and possibly some I/O). Ah - I'd half-guessed that from reading the EPE website; I don't know why, but somehow it sounds like cheating to me... >The disadvantage, at least with many of them, is that you can't add >external program memory (EPROM, etc) -- what you have on chip is all you >have. And you can't write self-modifying code for much the same reason >(you can't keep on reprogramming an internal 'ROM' location, and you >can't store programs in RAM). Eek - self modifying code? Dangerous.... >Still, they are very useful chips for many small control systems. They >are cheap enough that they are worth using even for trivial problems. Maybe once I've got the hang of using a bus, I'll be more inclined to use them. For now, I've a hankering after learning how it's done properly, so to speak. [1] I say "running W2K", using the broadest sense of the word.... It works, mostly, but I have to re-boot it about 7-10 times a week. Grrr... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 24 18:55:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:44 2005 Subject: Curricula ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I find I learn more my 'playing with the problem' than from formal > training. Which is why I generally refuse to go on such training > courses. I would learn a lot more if I had the object (FPGA chip, or > whatever) on my bench for a couple of weeks with the databooks amd was > just allowed to experiment with it. Certainly. But unfortunately, and in general, the real world doesn't allow such a luxury of time. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rcini at optonline.net Fri Aug 24 20:06:54 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Favorite screen capture program for Windows Message-ID: Hello, all: I'm working on the manual for Altair32 and wanted to know if anyone has a favorite program to capture screenshots. Using the PrtScrn method is clunky. I'm looking for more elegant. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jrice at texoma.net Fri Aug 24 21:20:33 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Favorite screen capture program for Windows References: Message-ID: <3B870B71.3A94B21A@texoma.net> I use "Printscreen" from American Systems. I bought it on a shareware disk at Sav-On office supply. Haven't found a printer or screen I can capture with it. "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > > Hello, all: > > I'm working on the manual for Altair32 and wanted to know if anyone has a > favorite program to capture screenshots. Using the PrtScrn method is clunky. > I'm looking for more elegant. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ From swtpc6800 at home.com Fri Aug 24 21:41:26 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Looking for Altair loader program References: Message-ID: <007201c12d0f$701b9620$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> I don't have a 17 byte one but I have the one that is in the OAE OP-80A paper tape reader. It is the last page of the Owners Manual http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/OAE80_Reader/OAE80_Index.htm Michale Holley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Cini, Jr." To: "ClassCompList" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 7:27 PM Subject: Looking for Altair loader program > Hello, all: > > On my continuing quest for Altair stuff, I was wondering if anyone had the > code for the 17-byte (I think) paper tape loader program? > > I'm adding direct support for the loader in the emulator. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 24 21:56:41 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: another test Message-ID: <20010825030009.MPND10851.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> another test From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 24 23:11:34 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Favorite screen capture program for Windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010824211056.02b9b170@209.185.79.193> I use Corel Capture (comes with Photo Paint and Draw) Works great and has a zillion options. --Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Sat Aug 25 01:24:01 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Cray EL-98 Supercomputer - 2 units on Ebay Message-ID: <3B874481.5AA67A1@internet1.net> Cray EL-98 Supercomputer - 2 units http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1267985838 Thought this might interest a few of you.... as the are supposed to come with media, manuals and one still has Unicos 9 on the drives! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 25 05:36:50 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Important Message About VCF 5.0 Message-ID: This is an important message about the upcoming Vintage Computer Festival 5.0. Due to budget constraints, VCF 5.0 has been restructured. The event will begin as scheduled with lectures beginning at 10:00am on Saturday, September 15 at Parkside Hall in San Jose. All lectures will be given on Saturday, ending at 3:00pm. At 4:00pm, the event moves to The Computer Museum History Center at Moffett Field in Mountain View. There, the Museum staff will host a tour and reception of the Museum's "Visible Storage" warehouse. The tour and reception will last approximately 3 hours. After that time, attendees are welcome to return to Parkside Hall to attend the California Extreme classic arcade show at a discount VCF rate of $20 after 5:00PM or $15 after 7:00PM (with your VCF badge). Please note that attendees wishing to visit The Computer Museum History Center must register in advance in order to be allowed through the security gate at Moffett Field, which is a United States military base. Please continue reading for instructions on registering. On Sunday, September 16, VCF 5.0 will continue at the Alameda County Computer Resource Center (ACCRC) in Oakland, California. The ACCRC is a non-profit organization that accepts donations of computers and computer equipment, refurbishes old systems that are then donated to schools and charities, and recycles the remainder to help protect our environment. All exhibits and vendors will be set up at the ACCRC's facility. The ACCRC will also be selling a large amount of vintage computers that they have accumulated over the years, as well as modern day PC and Mac parts in their inventory. There will be tours of the facility to demonstrate the various community projects that the ACCRC conducts. The ACCRC is currently undergoing a budget crisis, so your attendance on Sunday will help this fine organization that serves a worldwide community keep its operation viable. All admission fees on Sunday will be donated to the ACCRC. All paying attendees will receive a donation receipt for their admission. Admission for the lectures on Saturday is $12 per person at the door. Tickets for a shuttle bus which will take attendees to The Computer Museum History Center will be sold separately for $5 per person. The bus is mostly intended to assist out of town guests without their own transportation but any guest is welcome to ride the bus as well. However, seats are limited and priority will be given to out of town guests. Tickets will be issued on a first come, first served basis. Please continue reading for information on how to reserve a seat in advance. Admission to the exhibit and marketplace on Sunday, September 16, at the ACCRC is $10 per person at the door for adults. Kids 17 and under will be admitted free of charge. Parking is ample and free, but we want to encourage attendees to use public transportation such as BART to get to the event. The BART station nearest the ACCRC is the Colesium/Oakland Airport station. Shuttle transportation between the station and the ACCRC will be running every 15 minutes. Out of town guests who will be staying in the San Jose area can use the bus to get to the nearest BART station. If you wish to receive help in planning the trip, please send e-mail to . Here is a breakdown of the new VCF 5.0 schedule: Saturday, September 15 Time Where What ------- ------------------------------ ----------------------- 10:00AM Parkside Hall in San Jose Lectures until 3:00PM 4:00PM The Computer Museum History A wonderful display of Center in Mountain View historic computers and computing artifacts 7:00PM Parkside Hall in San Jose Lots of fun at the California Extreme classic arcade show Sunday, September 16 Time Where What ------- ------------------------------ ----------------------- 10:00AM Alameda County Computer Classic computer and Resource Center in Oakland ACCRC exhibits, old computer marketplace 5:00PM VCF 5.0 ends To register for the tour at The Computer Museum History Center, please visit this address: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/tcmhc.php For more information about The Computer Museum History Center, please visit: http://www.computerhistory.org/ For more information about the Alameda County Computer Resource Center, including directions to their location in Oakland, please visit: http://www.accrc.org/ For information about the California Extreme 2001 classic arcade show, please visit: http://www.caextreme.org/ For information on local bus routes and schedules, visit the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority website at: http://www.vta.org/ For information on BART schedules and stations, please visit: http://www.bart.gov/ The changes in this year's Vintage Computer Festival are the result of budgetary constraints brought on in part by the sluggish Silicon Valley economy. We hope to be back to normal next year. But for this year, we believe we have put together an event that will still satisfy our loyal VCF fans as well as first-time attendees. If you have any questions, comments or suggestions about this year's event, please do send them to . We hope to see you at this year's Vintage Computer Festival! And remember, tell a friend! A printable flyer in Word format can be downloaded here: http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/vcf50.doc Vintage Computer Festival 5.0 September 15th and 16th, 2001 http://www.vintage.org/2001/main/ From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 25 10:14:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: two-decade old FOCAL interpreter doc/listing References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010824083913.0218d100@pc> Message-ID: <002301c12d78$c8badf20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Some time back, someone asked me about an old 6502-based FOCAL interpreter of which I have both source code and documentation. This work was written by Wayne Wall of the Denver Area 6502 Users' Group back in the late '70's, for use with the Digital Group machine with their 6502 CPU board. The version I have is set up to run under APEX, IIRC, and I've lost and rediscovered this listing and instructions several times. I've re-examined it and decide that it's not of sufficient quality to warrant an attempt on my part to scan it, since I have, purportedly, the source files in machine-readable form on FD, albeit in a format that requires me to resurrect a system for which the FDC no longer exists. If somebody wants this listing, printed on contiuous form 8-1/2x11"sheet white paper, it's yours for the price of USPS Priority Mail shipping ($3.50?) It's a stack about 3/4" thick. Contact me via email to make arrangements, preferably BEFORE it submerges into the mire once again. Dick From west at tseinc.com Sat Aug 25 22:28:55 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Message-ID: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Don't recall this ever coming up before. I don't need to do it with anything now, but might in the future so thought I'd solicit any ideas from the listmembers. For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that get broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the realm of the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? For example - a switch on a DEC PC04 where you have 3 switches but are missing one. Can it easily be done to make a casting of the part in some kind of clay, then work with dyes to get the color right and pour in a plastic or resin and thus create another identical switch? I'm sure there's a lot of side issues that come up. Some parts need to be hard, some ever so slightly flexible. Others need to be a solid material, and still others would need to be somewhat opaque to let light shine through. I'm thinking of like front panel switches or light covers. Anyone ever try this route or is it silly to even attempt non-professionally? Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010825/cc0e216c/attachment.html From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 25 11:07:46 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting References: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <000c01c12d80$151bece0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> As a kid I tried something relevant to this, I pressed aluminum foil over parts from two directions filled each press with epoxy, then assembled, sanded, & painted the result. Kinda fun, if time consuming. For this day & age I typed "stereolithography" into Yahoo.com and found a bunch of sites for that. The technology has been around for some time so the price must be coming down. The service started in the $1K/up range maybe 10 years ago. John A. From mbg at world.std.com Sat Aug 25 10:17:34 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... Message-ID: <200108251517.LAA10395@world.std.com> does anyone know how to tell if an I-Opener is of the kind which can be hacked? Can one tell from the serial number of does the machine physically have to be opened? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 25 12:16:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Bush uncancels VCF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations on keeping it going! Are you planning to have a HUMONGOUS vendor presence? Does this mean that vendors who are unsuccessful in selling stuff can donate it to you right then and there? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 25 12:39:49 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010825103419.023fec90@209.185.79.193> I've done this a couple of times but it isn't as useful yet as I would like. For duplicating parts, the simplest solution is to use something called "RTV" or, if you can convince your dentist to sell you some, dental casting foam. This stuff is mixed, and the part is placed in it to form a mold. When making a mold be sure and figure out how you want to fill it and take it apart. When you're done you'll have a rubbery thing with a mold shape in it. Next use a casting material. The two I've used are acrylic resin (two part resin available in craft stores) and Alumilite. (www.alumilite.com) Alumilite is harder than acrylic but less tough. Both can be dyed. Designing your own parts is a bit trickier but certainly doable if you know a machinist. Generally you get a machined "blank" and use that to create the molds from which all parts are made. Stereo lithography is a good way to make the blank. --Chuck At 10:28 PM 8/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Don't recall this ever coming up before. I don't need to do it with >anything now, but might in the future so thought I'd solicit any ideas >from the listmembers. > >For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that >get broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the >realm of the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? For example - a >switch on a DEC PC04 where you have 3 switches but are missing one. Can it >easily be done to make a casting of the part in some kind of clay, then >work with dyes to get the color right and pour in a plastic or resin and >thus create another identical switch? > >I'm sure there's a lot of side issues that come up. Some parts need to be >hard, some ever so slightly flexible. Others need to be a solid material, >and still others would need to be somewhat opaque to let light shine >through. I'm thinking of like front panel switches or light covers. > >Anyone ever try this route or is it silly to even attempt non-professionally? > >Jay West > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 25 12:42:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Bush uncancels VCF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Congratulations on keeping it going! > Are you planning to have a HUMONGOUS vendor presence? > Does this mean that vendors who are unsuccessful in selling stuff can > donate it to you right then and there? > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com Oops. I'm an ASSSS. I just realized that I was confusing Vintage Technology Cooperative Resource Center with The Alameda County Computer Resource Center. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From foo at siconic.com Sat Aug 25 12:11:14 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Bush uncancels VCF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Congratulations on keeping it going! Thanks! > Are you planning to have a HUMONGOUS vendor presence? Not humongous, but there should be more than enough vintage computer "stuff" there to sate the appetites of collectors. The ACCRC has a lot of good stuff to offer themselves. There is enough space for about 8 vendors. If we get a good response, we'll try to find more space to accomodate the demand. > Does this mean that vendors who are unsuccessful in selling stuff can > donate it to you right then and there? Yes! It will either go to the VCF or the ACCRC. You are also welcome to bring along more modern day stuff to donate directly to the ACCRC (their motto: nothing is too old, and nothing is too new). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 25 14:30:05 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... In-Reply-To: <200108251517.LAA10395@world.std.com> Message-ID: >does anyone know how to tell if an I-Opener is of the kind >which can be hacked? Can one tell from the serial number of >does the machine physically have to be opened? Most of my links are on another computer, but here is a site to get you started. http://www.linux-hacker.net/ Plus, if you were to look through the list archives there are probably some other links and info about a year and a half ago. I was supposed to be getting one, but the company and Circuit Shi** pulled a fast one on me, so I didn't. The only list member I know of that actually managed to get one was John Wilson, and I think he turned it into a PDP-11 (which was what I wanted to do). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Aug 25 14:49:34 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010825144557.02ab8b40@pc> At 10:28 PM 8/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that get broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the realm of the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? I've wished for a similar replicator. It's somewhere between stereolithography, an inkjet printer and a hot glue gun. I add cheap web cams, flying spot scanners and turntables to the daydream as needed. - John From dittman at dittman.net Sat Aug 25 15:09:12 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 25, 2001 12:30:05 PM Message-ID: <200108252009.f7PK9Ce00421@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >does anyone know how to tell if an I-Opener is of the kind > >which can be hacked? Can one tell from the serial number of > >does the machine physically have to be opened? > > Most of my links are on another computer, but here is a site to get you > started. http://www.linux-hacker.net/ Plus, if you were to look through > the list archives there are probably some other links and info about a year > and a half ago. I was supposed to be getting one, but the company and > Circuit Shi** pulled a fast one on me, so I didn't. The only list member I > know of that actually managed to get one was John Wilson, and I think he > turned it into a PDP-11 (which was what I wanted to do). I bought one from Circuit City and one from CompUSA. The one from Circuit City was sent to my in-laws, and they use is as it was intended. The one from CompUSA was the demo unit so it was very easy to hack. I turned it into a small Linux box. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 25 16:11:28 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Free S-100 stuff, Washington DC area Message-ID: <010825171128.20600a7b@trailing-edge.com> Free S-100 mainframes, generally with power supplies and some random cards and in some cases drives. Located just inside the Washington DC beltway, you-pick-up-only, first-come-first-served: Cromemco System III. If you take this, you also get to take all my Persci 8" drives that fit inside the mainframe. Nice rack-mount box. Cromemco Z2D. 5.25" floppy drive, Z80 CPU, some memory, etc. Very sleek black rack mount box. Cromemco HDD disk memory system, sleek black case to match Z2D. Dynacomp desktop S-100 box with a bunch of cards. Email me (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) if interested. Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 25 15:57:23 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Free DEC Pro/Rainbow stuff, Washington DC area Message-ID: <010825165723.20600a7b@trailing-edge.com> Free stuff, just inside the Washington DC beltway. You-haul-away only; no shipping, first-come-first-served. I'm only rarely available during the week; this will probably all have to go by the end of this weekend: DEC Pro 380 w/monochrome monitor DEC LA75 (serial dot-matrix) printer with stand Many DEC Rainbow software kits of various sorts (some rebadged Microsoft stuff) A couple of DEC Pro software kits A cubic foot of DEC Professional technical-type docs As always, when you show up here, I'll try to make you take away some other extra stuff too :-). Please email me (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) if interested. Tim. From ve2qcg at globetrotter.net Wed Aug 22 03:14:50 2001 From: ve2qcg at globetrotter.net (Allen Peluso) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: info for miniscribes 3085 Message-ID: <000a01c12ae2$879a5ae0$27bda98e@globetrotter.qc.ca> Hello ! I am looking for informations about MINISCRIBES MODEL : 3085 Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? Thank you ve2qcg@globetrotter.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010822/aee3deae/attachment.html From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 23 19:06:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <3B845D5E.1A3B01D6@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <1224.636T450T664379optimus@canit.se> John W. Linville skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Gordon C. Zaft skrev: >> >> > Linux != x86. >> >> Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not >> be. >That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a >number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging >from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at >least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each >family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the >Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should >pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look? Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an m68k/MIPS/PPC meainstream distro in the bookshop, or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms? Usually not. Yes, you can run "ls" and "more", as wellas "ifconfig", but beyond that? What about Netscape? Embedded systems are a moot point, since they're in an entirely different field and reduces Linux to a kernel as opposed to the desktop/server OS which is what most people know Linux as. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86. From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 23 19:44:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225697@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <532.636T2350T1045559optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> There are parties in all of Scandinavia each year, as well as Poland and >> France. Don't know about the scene beyond there. >Ok... what was throwing me for a loop here, was that you seemed surprised >that I was unaware of them, but they turn out to be something we don't >have around here, so my absence of familiarity shouldn't be such a >surprise... Are you certain? It might just be a PAL/NTSC thing. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts. From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 23 20:21:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010822190150.027a5920@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <1249.636T2850T1416879optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >At 09:37 PM 8/22/01 -0400, Sean wrote: >> I just compiled the C hello world program under Linux 2.2.12 with >>egcs-2.91.66 and got the following: >>-rwxrwxr-x 1 spc spc 932131 Aug 22 21:32 hello >> Okay, granted, I compiled it statically (if I compiled normally, it would >>be 11,811 bytes in size 8-) but still, nearly a megabyte there! >So what's your point? How much memory do you have on this machine? What >fraction of main memory is 932,131 bytes? Given dynamic linking, what >fraction is 11,811 bytes? The PC tools live on big memory machines, there >is no motivation to make them small. On my 68HC11 cross compilation system >compiling hello.c gives me 210 bytes. If it gave me 11K bytes I'd throw it >out because the most I can work with is 64K and 11K is too much to spend on >printing a string. I may be old-fashioned here, but I'm of the opinion that my expensive and valuable memory should be available for my leisure, not wasted by lazy programmers with lousy compilers. How much memory I may have is my business, the programmer's business is to make sure that as little as possible is wasted on applications when it could be used for data or other applications. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 25 00:56:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Plastic or Ceramic? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010823020923.00a99368@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <952.637T1900T4165765optimus@canit.se> Adrian Vickers skrev: >At 11:37 pm 22/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >>> However, both DIL variants are available in in plastic or ceramic carriers >>> - what is the advantage/disadvantage of either of those? >> >>Ceramic packages generally work over a larger temperature range, and may >>be more reliable under harsh conditions. Plastic pacakges are cheaper. >I thought it *may* be something like that. I notice the QL uses a ceramic >MC68008, perhaps this meant they didn't need a heatsink on it. I must say that I've never seen a 68000 (or 68008 for that matter) with a heatsink, be it in Amigas, HPs, Ataris or industrial systems. The 68000 doesn't heat up like a Pentium or a 68040. OTOH, could any one confirm whether the 68000 was only available in ceramics at first? The only non-plastic one I've seen was in a very old system. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From optimus at canit.se Sat Aug 25 01:02:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <305.637T2600T4225925optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >Would "Dick" be included in the list of expletives? Sellam, making fun of people's names is a real punch below the belt. Make fun of their person, their ideas or their ramblings, but not their looks or their names, they didn't choose those themselves. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 25 17:08:08 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: info for miniscribes 3085 In-Reply-To: <000a01c12ae2$879a5ae0$27bda98e@globetrotter.qc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Allen Peluso wrote: > Hello ! > > I am looking for informations about MINISCRIBES MODEL : 3085 > > Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? > > Thank you > > ve2qcg@globetrotter.net > Miniscribe 3085: Cap 68 Intfc ST MFM Spd 22 Hds 7 Cyl 1170 SPT 17 RWC 1170 WPC 512 - don From leec at slip.net Sat Aug 25 17:12:11 2001 From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... In-Reply-To: <200108251517.LAA10395@world.std.com> Message-ID: Megan et al, I know a couple engineers have hacked the i-opener, I'll ask for answer to your question. Lee Courtney Engineering Manager Phone: (408) 328-9238 MontaVista Software, Inc. Fax: (408) 328-9204 1237 E. Arques Web: www.hardhatlinux.com Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Email: lcourtney@mvista.com Check out the embedded Linux experts at http://www.hardhatlinux.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Megan > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 8:18 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... > > > > does anyone know how to tell if an I-Opener is of the kind > which can be hacked? Can one tell from the serial number of > does the machine physically have to be opened? > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 13:40:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010825013114.00a903e0@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 25, 1 01:31:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8931 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010825/334db9a3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 13:16:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Curricula ... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 24, 1 04:55:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010825/580a8b80/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 16:58:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 25, 1 10:28:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2237 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010825/5523888b/attachment.ksh From vaxman at qwest.net Sat Aug 25 18:01:29 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: I'm sure this is quite possible, and even reasonable if you aren't concerned with maintaining original-ness (Let's not EVEN go down that path!). I suspect something like this is done in classic cars, so you might even be able to get the apropriate plastic resins... I don't have any systems with switchen and blinken lights, so I haven't faced that particular problem yet, but even an off color (white?) switch would be better than a broken one... Clint On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote: > Don't recall this ever coming up before. I don't need to do it with anything now, but might in the future so thought I'd solicit any ideas from the listmembers. > > For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that get broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the realm of the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? For example - a switch on a DEC PC04 where you have 3 switches but are missing one. Can it easily be done to make a casting of the part in some kind of clay, then work with dyes to get the color right and pour in a plastic or resin and thus create another identical switch? > > I'm sure there's a lot of side issues that come up. Some parts need to be hard, some ever so slightly flexible. Others need to be a solid material, and still others would need to be somewhat opaque to let light shine through. I'm thinking of like front panel switches or light covers. > > Anyone ever try this route or is it silly to even attempt non-professionally? > > Jay West > > > From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Sat Aug 25 19:07:31 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. References: <1224.636T450T664379optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B883DC3.72D1376B@bedrocksys.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > John W. Linville skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> > >> Gordon C. Zaft skrev: > >> > >> > Linux != x86. > >> > >> Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not > >> be. > > >That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a > Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an m68k/MIPS/PPC meainstream distro in > the bookshop, or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms? Usually not. > Yes, you can run "ls" and "more", as wellas "ifconfig", but beyond that? What > about Netscape? Are there any "mainstream" m68k or MIPS systems still around that would deserve a mainstream distibution? PPC is covered by (at least) Yellow Dog (www.yellowdoglinux.com). Sparc and Alpha (while it survives) are supported by a number of distributions, including Red Hat. According to the Yellow Dog website, Borders is stocking their distribution at some of its stores. I'm not sure about Netscape, but I'm sure Mozilla is available for these distributions. Koffice, OpenOffice, etc are probably available as binaries for these distributions. Besides, now you are talking about which applications vendors support what platforms. Believe it or not, Unix admins used to survive by (horror of horrors) downloading source and compiling for their own systems. Your original complaint was that "Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT", which would seem to apply to the OS rather than the applications vendors. Or are you changing the rules, now that you've been called on your bluster? > Embedded systems are a moot point, since they're in an entirely different > field and reduces Linux to a kernel as opposed to the desktop/server OS which > is what most people know Linux as. Again, this smells like rule changing. Claiming that "Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT" and then refusing to consider Linux running on anything other than an i386 is like declaring allegations to be facts by refusing to hear any contradictary evidence. Now I regret having replied to the first off topic post. As if this list doesn't have enough off topic content, now I'm guilty of adding to it. Iggy, please either reply privately to my address or (preferably) don't reply at all... John -- John W. Linville Bedrock Systems From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 25 19:01:24 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: "test" posts Message-ID: <20010826000455.NOIJ1851.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: ysgdhio > To: acme_ent@bellsouth.net > Subject: Re: another test > Date: Saturday, August 25, 2001 2:02 AM > > Glen Goodwin writes: > > another test > > Is this *really* necessary?! It's pretty damn annoying. Well, my apologies to the group, but I must say that if my you found my grand total of *two* test posts to be "pretty damn annoying" you might want to chill OUT -- RELAX -- get a LIFE. The reason for the tests was simply that for the last week I have only been receiving about 1/3 of the messages posted to the list. I deduced this by the large number of "Re:" posts I received where I did NOT receive the original post. Also, the messages were not in date/time sequential order, and three posts I made during the last week were not received by me. I then posted the original "test" message, and when I didn't receive it, I subscribed using another (this) e-mail account and posted "another test" (which I DID receive). Perhaps everyone's on edge due to the high number of off-topic and inflammatory messages which have been posted lately, but, hey, can't you cut me a little slack while I resolve this problem? After all, it's not as if I called you an ASS or something ;>) Glen 0/0 From jss at subatomix.com Sat Aug 25 21:34:20 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010825203803.G28524-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, I know it's nice to be able to make replacement parts (one day > there will be no more spares), which is why I intend to investigate > injection moulding at home. If only we had Star Trek's replicators! I'd say that personal manufacturing is bound only to get easier and less expensive. Some day, even before the advent of replicators, it will be feasible and cheap to build most any replacement part. I would expect that to have a revolutionary effect on many fields of old stuff collecting. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mranalog at home.com Sat Aug 25 21:33:52 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Message-ID: <3B886010.CF37EDD8@home.com> Tony Duell said: > I've not tried this, but David (? maybe Vincent) Gingery has written a > book on DIY injection moulding. Although the machine descibed will only > do small parts (<10g or so), it would seem it could do switch levers, > etc. I think scaling it up would be difficult, as the mould is not > heated, so the plastic would most likely solidify before the mould was > filled. It's Vince Gingery. I have this book. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/inject/index.html Dave Gingery did the line of foundry books and the 7 book set "Build Your Own Metalworking Shop from Scrap". (Makes me feel like a kid again). All of it is at Lindsay Books http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/index.html every book you need to rebuild the world after the apocalypse. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From ken at seefried.com Sat Aug 25 21:47:19 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <200108252305.SAA41284@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108252305.SAA41284@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010826024719.3041.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > >Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an m68k/MIPS/PPC >meainstream distro in the bookshop, Yes (though more likely for Alpha/SPARC/PPC...m68k & MIPS are a bit more obscure). Not at Barns & Noble, to be sure, but certainly at more technical bookstores (e.g. Engineers Bookstore near Georgia Tech had them last I was there). >or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms? Usually not. Yes. See above. >What about Netscape? Several alternative platforms run Netscape just fine, even if some of them are emulating the version of Unix that originally ran on that chip. Of course, trying to make such sweeping statements about Linux based on what can be purchased commercially in a bookstore is like making judgements about advanced telecommunications based on a visit to Radio Shack. Ken From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 22:53:46 2001 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: "test" posts In-Reply-To: <20010826000455.NOIJ1851.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw>; from Glen Goodwin on Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 08:01:24PM -0400 References: <20010826000455.NOIJ1851.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20010825235346.A5362@spies.com> Glen Goodwin writes: [...] > After all, it's not as if I called you an ASS or something ;>) How fortunate, since that would have shown the same lack of judgement as posting a public reply to a private comment. From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Aug 25 23:12:37 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. References: <297.635T1500T1174793optimus@canit.se> <3B845D5E.1A3B01D6@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <3B887735.58509F5D@idirect.com> >John W. Linville wrote: > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >>Gordon C. Zaft skrev: > >> Linux != x86. > > Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. > That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a > number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging > from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at > least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each > family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the > Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should > pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look? Jerome Fine replies: Does anyone know of Linux has been ported to the PDP-11 as yet? From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Aug 25 23:12:47 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: [jjc@mac.com: pdp11 stuff] References: <200108231639.JAA19499@smtpout.mac.com> Message-ID: <3B88773F.12056F6D@idirect.com> >John Christie wrote: > On Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 09:50 PM, Jerome Fine wrote: > > I don't know if you want to separate the media, but I can probably help > > you with the RL02 disks. If this is a commercial request (I presume it is > > not), then I could probably arrange to acquire an RK05 drive as well. > This is an academic request. I have 5 RL disks. I have been > informed that they are actually RL01K-DC (??). However, my > understanding is that they both can be read in the same drives. > In order to transfer the data (I am only interested in the text > files) we could just email it or I could set up an ftp account and you > could send it as a TAR archive. The total amount of data shouldn't be > bigger than a large attachment. > I really appreciate your offer. However, I am going to hold off on > accepting it in case someone comes along who really needs the media. > I am not on the PDP mailing list, but if you could update the > description to RL01 disks (5) and even mention that that there are about > 20 of the RK05 I would appreciate it. > Thanks > John Christie Jerome Fine replies: I was asked to replay the message Does anyone have both the RK05 drives and the RL01 drives (NOT RL02 after all)? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Aug 25 23:13:15 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else References: Message-ID: <3B88775B.6B286F45@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've been both told and taught that assembly is not used anymore on the Intel > > > platform, at least not Intel-based computers, and that modern compilers do > > > the job much better anyway. > > Assembly is still used, just very rarely, and usually for the lowest > > levels of the operating system. I just checked Linux 2.0.39 (which I run on > Just out of curiousity, how do you write a compiler (from scratch, for a > new procrssor) if you don't understand the assembly language/machine code > for that processor. Or are you assuming that somebody else is going to > write a pefectly good compiler? Jerome Fine replies: These days, when you build new hardware, it is tested with an emulator just as you would write an emulator for old hardware that is no longer cost effective to produce. Then you write a cross-assembler which runs on a different set of hardware instructions to produce the first native assembler that can run either under the emulator or eventually the real hardware - if it is ever produced. Since I have not been directly involved in such a project, I don't know the details, but these days you can't produce a modern new computer without the current computers. Did you know that Intel uses computers to run their production lines? And did you know that they don't generally use Intel boxes but probably Alpha boxes with VMS as the operating system since the former are not reliable enough. At least, that is what I have seen discussed on the news groups by people who have seen the Intel production lines. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From vance at ikickass.org Sat Aug 25 23:41:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <3B887735.58509F5D@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > Does anyone know of Linux has been ported to the PDP-11 as yet? Hmmm... it might be worth it to look into porting ELKS to PDP-11. Doesn't rely on 32-bit constucts. Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 26 00:06:23 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> I just went to a local computer show today. I was happy to find that a few vendors had components available from disassembled computers or whatever. I picked up a 3com 3C905-TX PCI ethernet card, an ATI Mach64 video card, and a very nice Sound Blaster 16, all used of course. The Mach64 had "Monitor" written in marker on the slot cover. Do office people really need to remind themselves where to plug the monitor in? I have also seen a 3.5" floppy drives marked "hard drive a:" and the 5.25" floppy, marked, "floppy drive b:". What's the deal? I also picked up a new AMD K6-II 500 to replace my IBM 6x86 233, and a nice new heatsink/fan for it too. Hopefully I'll have my re-made socket 7 setup, up and running Linux soon :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 00:38:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> References: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: > >video card, and a very nice Sound Blaster 16, all used of course. The >Mach64 had "Monitor" written in marker on the slot cover. Do office >people really need to remind themselves where to plug the monitor in? I >have also seen a 3.5" floppy drives marked "hard drive a:" and the 5.25" >floppy, marked, "floppy drive b:". What's the deal? I've seen brand new systems come from Dell with little stickers in place labeling all of the ports. Not just the little icons, but it all spelled out. Frankly, I'm suprised a lot of people even find the power button. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 25 21:26:06 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010826061951.LVFK8611.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:06:23 -0400 > From: Chad Fernandez > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Mach64 had "Monitor" written in marker on the slot cover. Do office > people really need to remind themselves where to plug the monitor in? I > have also seen a 3.5" floppy drives marked "hard drive a:" and the 5.25" > floppy, marked, "floppy drive b:". What's the deal? Big YES... some is not that fast, and some aren't that good with stuff. At my part-time peecee work, sometimes I see few machines marked with many labels etc. This is why the new computers and connectors now color coded, PnP, etc. :-) Blech. Those klutz should take Mac instead. > > I also picked up a new AMD K6-II 500 to replace my IBM 6x86 233, and a > nice new heatsink/fan for it too. Hopefully I'll have my re-made socket > 7 setup, up and running Linux soon :-) Blech! Cyrix... :-P Should had gotten duron or Intel PIII around 400. K6-2 500 is around bottom rung of current processors even those are all AMD cpus. Oh, make sure that K6-2 gets large heatsink. Cheers. Wizard From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 26 01:24:43 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3B88962B.E8044A5B@internet1.net> Well, sure I've seen little labels that mark off ports, but these are obviously hand written by people, as if they aren't going to know later on or something. Sort of like leaving yourself a post-it note for something you might legitimately forget. They do it for silly things, like the floppy drives! Sometimes on modern computers, I can't find the power button! Morphed looking cases with ATX softpower supplies, and all. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > I've seen brand new systems come from Dell with little > stickers in place labeling all of the ports. Not just the little > icons, but it all spelled out. Frankly, I'm suprised a lot of people > even find the power button. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Aug 26 06:36:09 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:45 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010826123609.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> At 01:06 am 26/08/2001 -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > What's the deal? Well..... it *does* come in usful when identifying which socket is keyboard, and which is mouse (bearing in mind their similarity - i.e. they look identical). The colour coding will be essential when the PC world finally wakes up and uses fibre optics for everything... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Aug 26 07:15:35 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010825013114.00a903e0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010826131535.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> At 07:40 pm 25/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: >> >If 'internally' covers electronic desgin, then you've clearly never >> >worked on PDP11/45s, PERQs, HP9100 calculators, or a dozen other older >> >machines I could name! >> >> Nope, afraid not. You could say I missed the "golden age" of computing > >I didn't work on them when they were current. My first computer was an >MK14, in about 1977-1978 (I still have it, but the regulator shorted and >took out most of the expensive chips so it's currently dead...). My >second computer, about a year later, was a TRS-80 Model 1. Well, they were pretty current then, weren't they? The follow-up to the Mk14 didn't arrive until 1980, and although I'm not sure about the TRS-80 1, I don't suppose it was *that* old at the time. Incidentally, if I ever get good at this stuff, I'll probably take a ROM dump of my TRS-80 Model 102, and figure out how to update it into the 21st century (i.e. replace a 19 with a 20), and give it a 100-year new lease of life :) >> (although I'd say I didn't); having got into it in the early '80s (about >> '81 I think). Bear in mind I was at primary school at the time, so I have a >> good excuse.... :) > >I think what happened to me was that in about 1986 I managed to buy an >old P850 minicomputer for \pounds 25.00 (it was sold as scrap). The front >panel (toggle switches and filament lamps) is beautiful, so I deceided to >have a go at repairing it. I learnt about how processors worked from that >machine (even though it's very unconventional!), and decided to grab any >other machines that I could and learn about those too. More or less what's happening with me now.... Except i don't have a mainframe to play with, or indeed the space to keep a mainframe in.... >> However useful the Wintel box, it's (to use a technical term) dull as f**k. > >Which is why I don't (and won't) have one... I've got a PC, but (a) it >runs linux and (b) the hardware is 'much hacked' :-)) Unfortunately, my day job requires Wintel, so I have several (3) here; although one only runs DOS, one runs Linux, and this one runs W2K. >> That sounds about right. I also wonder how many tricks have been lost & >> rediscovered several times....not necessarily in the field of computing. > >Far too many... Which is why I read almost all the old books on >engineering, radio, electronics, etc that I can. A lot of the really >ancient stuff (radio/radar stuff from 50 years ago, for example) is still >_very_ applicable today... Somehow, I'm not in the least bit surprised... I used to have a Sinclair Cambridge Programmable calculator (I've no idea where the calculator itself is these days, but I *should* still have it somewhere). That came with four books c/w example programs, etc. Some of these cover extremely complex maths & electronics - so I really ought to write an emulator or something. Fourier analysis in 35 program steps? Try *that* in VB :) >Heck, I noticed a very nice mechanical edge-triggered system (basically a >pair of level trigers with mechanical hysteresis) the other day. In a >clock dating from 1360 or so. Same trick works in electronics.... I had to go look "hysteresis" up... Still not 100% sure where/why that would be useful... [GPIB] >I'm pretty sure some HP 9000-series Unix boxes have HPIB disks, BTW... Blimey. I wonder if they'd work on a PET...? [Maplin] > >Odd... I never found Maplin to have the range of either RS or Farnell >(and this was in the mid 1980s). Their quality was lower as well (I had a >few dead TTL parts from Maplin, never had a single dead one from RS or >Farnell). It could be the cost thing - AFAIR RS were always more expensive than Maplin, so (naturally) the school had Maplin catalogues and not RS (or Farnell). My first introduction to these was back in the days when Dad built PCBs of various types; most of the components came from RS or Farnell. >Yes. Maplin now have a very poor range of components. I use them for >things like DB25 connectors, cable, and so on because they're convenient >(there are a couple of shops near enough to me that I can easily go and >pick up the bits I need). But for ICs, etc I go to RS now. Pretty much the same here, although I have to go all the way out to Marble Arch... I could go to Stratford, which is probably nearer, but invloves a drive; not something I like to do when the shops are open (too damn busy). >> >The things that are not easy to find are the >> >screw-down posts with M3.5 therads used on the chassis mount connector >> >for the jackscrews on the cable connector to screw into. The quickest way >> >for me to get those is to make them from scratch. More normal people, I >> >guess, ask a friendly local model engineer... >> >> Should I add a lathe to my list of requirements? :) > >I did :-)... I nearly got one for free when I rented my shed up in Liverpool, but the owner (who was moving into another section of the shed) wanted it back, unfortunately (he had a good excuse - he runs a metalworking shop). We got to keep his pillar drill, but it's hardly useful for electronics, being 8ft tall and taking drill bits up to 1.5" diameter.... Mind you, I've also got a CNC drilling machine, ideal for electronics. Hopefully we'll get that up and running soon, so PCG manufacture will actually be very possible. >Seriously, a small metalwork lathe (small meaning the size of workpiece >it'll handle -- the machine itself is anything but...) Don't I know it - I remember the lathes from school being mosters, and the one that we briefly acquired at Liverpool was pretty damn big. >is a nice thing to >have. But it's not that useful for classic computing unless you need to >make mechanical parts, or spacers, or things like that. I use mine a lot, >because it's there. If I didn't have it, then I'd find another way, I >guess... > >A lathe becomes useful when you have other, related, hobbies like model >engineering. :) I'm deliberately trying to keep my number of hobbies (especially expensive ones) down; motor racing takes up a *lot* of space, time & money; and computing - although smaller - also takes time & money... I'd need to inherit a big bag of cash before I can make enough time for anything else... [Connectors] >> That makes sense. TBH, any kind of in-line connector would do - except >> maybe a DIN type (for the soldering reasons given elsewhere)... > >I try to be somewhat sane in my use of connectors, so I'd not use a 1/4" >jack plug/socket for a monitor power connection (for all it would handle >the current). I'd use something commonly associated with 'power' >connections like the Molex or AMP series I mentioned. It makes life a >little easier when you're trying to work out what a particular connector >is carrying... True... I've used plug-block extensively in the past, largely because it doesn't involve solder. But then this was mostly on car electrics, where it doesn't really matter how big it is, so long as it's robust enough to survive the vibrations. [Oscilloscopes] >> got two other offers - so one way or the other I should end up OK. Not sure >> if it'll be a Tek though. > >Well, Tektronix are (IMHO) about the best, but there are plenty of other >brands that will be OK for the moment... I bow to your superior knowledge: If the old man comes through, it'll probably be one of the HP's I used way back when; I'm not sure of the brand of the other two. >FWIW, Stewarts of Reading are advertising various Tektronix 400-series in >the latest Elektor magazine. And a few cheaper 'scopes that might do >(there's a Gould for under \pounds 100.00 which looks possible!). Hopefully, my local newsagent will be procuring a regular copy of Elektor soon. I seem to remember avoiding Elektor as a young lad getting interested in electronics, mainly because it seemed too complex. But then, I did have learning difficulties[1]... [1] I was too lazy to learn anything :) [PIC] > >If you want to make a processor from TTL chips, or from discrete >transistors, or even from valves, well, that's a reasonable thing to want >to do. It's going to be slower than many microprocessors you can buy now >[1], but that's probably not the point. You can't fail to learn a lot >about procesor design by making one. :) Can you *really* see me soldering hundreds of transistors onto a PCB? I guess a valve processor would be useful in the winter months - it'd keep the place nice and warm :) Then again, as a learning project, I expect it would be extremely useful. ISTR it being possible to build a latch from two transistors, or is it three? >If you want to build a traditional microprocessor system (say a Z80 + >EPROM + RAM + a few I/O chips), well, that's fine too. It's a different >type of project, but it's equally interesting. That was where I was thinking of starting. I'm not sure what I'll build to begin with, whethere it'll be something useful, or just something to play with. >If you want to make an interface to link your PC to your pocket >calculator (as I often do...) and it turns out that you need a little >more than you can easily do with TTL, then you use a microcontroller >(such as a PIC). Again, it's a different type of project, but that >doesn't make it 'cheating' or 'invalid' or 'a waste of time' or anything >like that. Fair enough - it was just that looking through the recent "computerised" projects in EPE, they all seem to use one of the PIC chips. Another problem seems to be that they're evolving so rapidly, that models keep going out of production (which leaves the hobbyist with something of a problem if (s)he can't re-design the system based on another chip). OTOH, Z80s have been in production for at least 21 years, and are still available now... >If you want to learn about the internals of processors, or how to link >things to an address/data bus type of structure then a PIC is probably >not what you should be looking at. Indeed. >> Eek - self modifying code? Dangerous.... > >You mean you _don't_ write self-modifying code? Odd.... It was drilled into me from a very early age that self-modifying code was A Bad Thing. Besides, it's impossible to do in Visual Basic - which is (currently) my mainstay. >You might find a PIC comes in handy on a more conventional microprocessor >system, e.g. for encoding a keyboard or similar. So don't ignore them >completely... Good idea; I'd not got around to thinking about polling keyboards, etc. There's also a lump of stuff to do with driving LCD matrix displays in EPE (I don't actually *have* any copies of EPE - not recent ones, anyway, but their website gives a description about what's been in them). It struck me that using cheap LCD matrix displays would be a lot easier than creating a CRT driver, and also means that project "X" could be put inside of one box (maybe two, with a separate keyboard). Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From gknight at emugaming.com Sun Aug 26 08:29:09 2001 From: gknight at emugaming.com (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000f01c12e33$1f1404e0$bc4afea9@magnus> Jeff Hellige wrote: > I've seen brand new systems come from Dell with little > stickers in place labeling all of the ports. Not just the little > icons, but it all spelled out. Frankly, I'm suprised a lot of people > even find the power button. Yep. I have similar experience of office people. They believe that they only need to know the basics of computing to get the job done. A legitimate statement I suppose, although computer bods would probably disagree. Anyone know a good VideoCD player for a Pentium 90MHz 32MB machine? I'm fixing up a general purpose PC for watching TV, playing MP3s. but I can't find a decent MPEG1 player. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com Home of the Amiga magazine guide, Complete Amiga prototype/official/clone list, and more! From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 26 08:32:01 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Fw: Access to an IBM mainframe was Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) Message-ID: <009201c12e36$0e105e70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> At 07:40 pm 25/08/2001 +0100, you wrote: More or less what's happening with me now.... Except i don't have a mainframe to play with, or indeed the space to keep a mainframe in.... > Forwarding this from a newsletter I get > ---- > DEVELOPERS: WANT TO TAKE AN IBM MAINFRAME FOR A SPIN? > Does developing Linux software for a mainframe computer sound like fun? > For many Linux advocates, the answer is probably "yes." Do you have a > mainframe handy? Unless you're working for a large company, the answer > is probably "no," and that's worrying IBM. Big Blue is so concerned > that the PC maker has decided to do something about the mainframe > shortage. > > Most open source software is created on inexpensive desktop computer > systems, which isn't surprising, considering the fact that most open > source developers are volunteering their time and don't have scads of > cash for hardware purchases. Recognizing this point, and openly > inviting Linux development for its mainframe systems, IBM has created > the Linux Community Development System (LCDS). > > LCDS provides open source developers with free access to a S/390 > mainframe. The system features a 9672 G6 Model ZX7 processor with 32 GB > of main memory, 2.1 terabytes of auxiliary memory, and a hypervisor > operating system that transparently allocates to each Linux user a > virtual environment that appears to the Linux kernel as a separate > processor and 128 MB of main memory. For more information, visit the > LCDS homepage. > http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/os/linux/lcds/ > _______________________________________________ > oclug mailing list > oclug@lists.oclug.on.ca > http://www.oclug.on.ca/mailman/listinfo/oclug From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 26 08:40:12 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: [jjc@mac.com: pdp11 stuff] References: <200108231639.JAA19499@smtpout.mac.com> <3B88773F.12056F6D@idirect.com> Message-ID: <009301c12e36$13899560$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Fine" To: "John Christie" ; Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [jjc@mac.com: pdp11 stuff] > >John Christie wrote: > > > On Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 09:50 PM, Jerome Fine wrote: > > > I don't know if you want to separate the media, but I can probably help > > > you with the RL02 disks. If this is a commercial request (I presume it is > > > not), then I could probably arrange to acquire an RK05 drive as well. > > This is an academic request. I have 5 RL disks. I have been > > informed that they are actually RL01K-DC (??). However, my > > understanding is that they both can be read in the same drives. > > In order to transfer the data (I am only interested in the text > > files) we could just email it or I could set up an ftp account and you > > could send it as a TAR archive. The total amount of data shouldn't be > > bigger than a large attachment. > > I really appreciate your offer. However, I am going to hold off on > > accepting it in case someone comes along who really needs the media. > > I am not on the PDP mailing list, but if you could update the > > description to RL01 disks (5) and even mention that that there are about > > 20 of the RK05 I would appreciate it. > > Thanks > > John Christie > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I was asked to replay the message Does anyone have both the RK05 > drives and the RL01 drives (NOT RL02 after all)? I have both with a PDP 11/34 that I'd like to see running again and then put in a truck and taken somewhere else where there is more space. From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 26 08:50:09 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... References: <200108251517.LAA10395@world.std.com> Message-ID: <009901c12e36$19ee3dc0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Megan" To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... > > does anyone know how to tell if an I-Opener is of the kind > which can be hacked? Can one tell from the serial number of > does the machine physically have to be opened? I have a friend here that grabbed one. He's still working on getting it all put back together. He's rebuilding a HP 712 at the moment to use as a prize at the OCLUG programming wars competition. There are a few machines that die an early death and will be very hard to find if we wait 10 years. The liquidator is clearing the Netwinders for $250 US without RAM or HD. I came across another "thing" yesterday. It looks like it was rack mounted and has 2 what look like tape drives on the front, with a Baud rate switch on the back and a serial port, and power plug. Made by an Ottawa company, no labels on the outside, brown front panel with large vents/gaps at the corners. When I get a digital camera I'll have to put up a mystery item page. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Aug 26 09:21:33 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: [jjc@mac.com: pdp11 stuff] References: <200108231639.JAA19499@smtpout.mac.com> <3B88773F.12056F6D@idirect.com> <009301c12e36$13899560$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3B8905ED.F4F88A57@idirect.com> >Mike Kenzie wrote: > I have both with a PDP 11/34 that I'd like to see running again and > then put in a truck and taken somewhere else where there is more > space. Jerome Fine replies: Do you have any software for the PDP-11/34? Which operating system? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From arthur.clark3 at verizon.net Sun Aug 26 09:43:31 2001 From: arthur.clark3 at verizon.net (Arthur E. Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010826103341.02bd92b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Yes, many of them are _very_ ... slow. Any doubters should consult Usenet alt.sysadmin.recovery. Arthur Clark From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Sun Aug 26 10:55:24 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... References: <200108251517.LAA10395@world.std.com> <009901c12e36$19ee3dc0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3B891BEC.35A4CDE5@bedrocksys.com> Mike Kenzie wrote: > > The liquidator is clearing the Netwinders for $250 US without RAM or > HD. Do you have more information on this? Is there a website where I can buy a Netwinder for $250? Thanks, John -- John W. Linville Bedrock Systems From dtwright at uiuc.edu Sun Aug 26 11:01:44 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... In-Reply-To: <200108252009.f7PK9Ce00421@narnia.int.dittman.net>; from dittman@dittman.net on Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:09:12PM -0500 References: <200108252009.f7PK9Ce00421@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20010826110144.F7360492@uiuc.edu> Eric Dittman said: > > I bought one from Circuit City and one from CompUSA. The one from Circuit > City was sent to my in-laws, and they use is as it was intended. The one > from CompUSA was the demo unit so it was very easy to hack. I turned it > into a small Linux box. I got one from circuit city. I had to replace the ROM to get it to boot a HD, but I did so and put a 4GB laptop and it now dual-boots linux and win98. The only hard part of the whole thing was scraping off the damn epoxy they used to stick the ROM chip into its socket... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dlinder at uiuc.edu Sun Aug 26 12:44:15 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? Message-ID: I found a Tektronix 465 o-scope today for $50 - it's missing probes, and the owner was going to look for the manual, but I'm wondering if this would be a good scope for hobby purposes? The previous owner feels that it probably needs a good cleaning, like some of the knobs. Any insights? - Dan Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 26 12:54:06 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: [jjc@mac.com: pdp11 stuff] References: <200108231639.JAA19499@smtpout.mac.com> <3B88773F.12056F6D@idirect.com> <009301c12e36$13899560$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <3B8905ED.F4F88A57@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3B8937BE.DAAD4CE6@tiac.net> I've got RT-11 for my 11/34. OMSI Pascal was the main compiler... Actually, a decent compiler as I recall. Jerome Fine wrote: > >Mike Kenzie wrote: > > > I have both with a PDP 11/34 that I'd like to see running again and > > then put in a truck and taken somewhere else where there is more > > space. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Do you have any software for the PDP-11/34? Which operating system? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 26 12:53:36 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010826123609.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: > > What's the deal? > > Well..... it *does* come in usful when identifying which socket is > keyboard, and which is mouse (bearing in mind their similarity - i.e. they > look identical). ... and for those without PC experience. We had a newbie in one of the college labs who was trying to install a second printer on some of the OLD (8088, 80286) machines. But the "other" DB25 connector on the back of the machines was MALE, ... So she connected them with gender changers. [for non-PC people: IBM used FEMALE DB25 for parallel printer, and MALE DB25 for serial] Back a long time ago, one of our instructors damaged the input circuitry of of several giant classroom CGA compatible monitors by plugging them into the Microsoft Bus [green-eyed] Mouse ports > The colour coding will be essential when the PC world finally wakes up and > uses fibre optics for everything... Is the color coding standardized? Or will we have incorrect connections made by people who follow the color code instead of other cues? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 12:52:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? (Dan Linder) References: Message-ID: <15241.14188.504135.983447@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 26, Dan Linder wrote: > I found a Tektronix 465 o-scope today for $50 - it's missing probes, and > the owner was going to look for the manual, but I'm wondering if this > would be a good scope for hobby purposes? > > The previous owner feels that it probably needs a good cleaning, like some > of the knobs. > > Any insights? The 465 is an *excellent* hobby scope. It was the top-of-the-line (or nearly so) when it was new, and was very pricey. The fact that they're affordable and accessible to hobbyists now, and most still have MANY years of good service life left in them, is a wonderful thing. And $50 is a good deal. I'd say go for it. I used a 475 for a long time, until a few months ago when I replaced it with a 2465A. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 26 13:19:01 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Not using one's own products (was: Curricula (was: Assembly In-Reply-To: <3B88775B.6B286F45@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > Did you know that Intel uses computers to run their production lines? And > did you know that they don't generally use Intel boxes but probably Alpha > boxes with VMS as the operating system since the former are not reliable > enough. At least, that is what I have seen discussed on the news groups > by people who have seen the Intel production lines. When Apple ran Eworld? (similar to onelist/egroups/Yahoo Groups), they did it on Pentiums. What OS is used for www.microsoft.com ? From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 26 13:41:10 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: <20010826061951.LVFK8611.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3B8942C6.EA6F776D@internet1.net> Remember this is socket 7, I can't use a Duron or P3 in this motherboard. Plus, this confuses me, why do all the vendors stock the AMD K6II? AMD made a K6-3 that was supposed to be better becasue it's cache ran at full speed, unike the K6-2. Is the Duron an AMD cpu, or is it an entry level Intel processor, similar to the Celeron? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > I also picked up a new AMD K6-II 500 to replace my IBM 6x86 233, and a > > nice new heatsink/fan for it too. Hopefully I'll have my re-made socket > > 7 setup, up and running Linux soon :-) > > Blech! Cyrix... :-P Should had gotten duron or Intel PIII around > 400. K6-2 500 is around bottom rung of current processors even those > are all AMD cpus. Oh, make sure that K6-2 gets large heatsink. > > Cheers. > > Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 26 13:52:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? References: Message-ID: <003801c12e60$33949c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, it's an excellent 'scope, and most of the pot's are sealed so all you have to do to get the noise out is work them back and forth a few times. Since you're geting such a good deal on this thing, do take the time, trouble, and expense to get the correct probes to go with it, and get three of them. You'll not regret it. IIRC, the probe that was shipped with mine when it was new was the TEK P6105's. It's a 10x 13pf 100 MHz probe with adjustment for compensation. You'll want one for each channel plus one for the delayed time base or for external triggering. Aside from the nicety of having a spare or not having to change between connections, an additional one doesn't really help life much. Trust me on that, as I have half a dozen of various lengths. Unless you work on rack-mounted equipment much, probes longer than 2 meters are probably unnecessary, but only you can decide that. Shorter probes may prove a handicap. The probes from this set have a number of attachments, and accessories. If you work on hardware that uses wire-wrapped components, there are probe tips that are intended for attachment to wirewrap pins that you'll find very useful. I curse the day I discovered these, because of how helpless I feel whenever I don't have them if I'm working on wirewrapped equipment. I've numbered them with cable markers and find them indispensible, since I can put a dozen or more of them in a circuit and the move the probe tips from labelled point to point. There'll be other things you discover along the way as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Linder" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? > I found a Tektronix 465 o-scope today for $50 - it's missing probes, and > the owner was going to look for the manual, but I'm wondering if this > would be a good scope for hobby purposes? > > The previous owner feels that it probably needs a good cleaning, like some > of the knobs. > > Any insights? > > - Dan > > > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher > > From fernande at internet1.net Sun Aug 26 13:58:53 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: Message-ID: <3B8946ED.C82528DF@internet1.net> Well, yes, I understand having labels from the factory, but thats not what I am talking about. For instance, theis video card I bought has a monitor symbol on it already, but someone wrote "monitor" on it in marker. Why do users label stuff like that? How about the floppy drives I mentioned earlier? The 3.5" floppy was labeled "Hard disk A", and the 5.25" floppy was labeled, "Floppy drive b:". That was obviuosly done by a user, as if they were going to forget which drive was for what kind of disk to insert. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > ... and for those without PC experience. We had a newbie in one of the > college labs who was trying to install a second printer on some of the > OLD (8088, 80286) machines. But the "other" DB25 connector on the back of > the machines was MALE, ... So she connected them with gender changers. > [for non-PC people: IBM used FEMALE DB25 for parallel printer, and MALE > DB25 for serial] > > Back a long time ago, one of our instructors damaged the input circuitry > of of several giant classroom CGA compatible monitors by plugging them > into the Microsoft Bus [green-eyed] Mouse ports > > > The colour coding will be essential when the PC world finally wakes up and > > uses fibre optics for everything... > > Is the color coding standardized? Or will we have incorrect connections > made by people who follow the color code instead of other cues? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 14:08:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: new stuff... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to Tim, I've just picked up a DEC Pro-380. Now I have micro versions of the VAX, PDP-8 and PDP-11 families! The 380 came with the following: - RX50 - RD52-A hard disk - keyboard - VR201 monitor, which will also be useful with my DECmate II - VT220 terminal - loads of documentation - the following boards installed: - DECNA ethernet (000042) - Telephone Management System (00041) - floppy controller (002004) - hard disk controller (000401) - color monitor cable I've not powered it up yet or gone through the documentation but it certainly looks to be interesting. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 26 14:18:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8942C6.EA6F776D@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Remember this is socket 7, I can't use a Duron or P3 in this > motherboard. Of course. > Plus, this confuses me, why do all the vendors stock the AMD K6II? AMD > made a K6-3 that was supposed to be better becasue it's cache ran at > full speed, unike the K6-2. AMD discontinued the K6-///, because it was too close in performance to the first-generation Athlon. > Is the Duron an AMD cpu, or is it an entry level Intel processor, > similar to the Celeron? The Duron is made by AMD. It is the AMD equivalent of the Celeron. Peace... Sridhar > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Aug 26 14:19:18 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) In-Reply-To: "Bill Sudbrink"'s message of "Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:03:53 -0400" References: Message-ID: <200108261919.f7QJJJl76319@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > The University Of Maryland had something called ZMOB or > Z-MOB in the early 1980s, which (if memory serves) was > 256 4MHz Z80s, several Megs of bank-switched memory, etc. > I never got to actually play with it or even see it, > only heard about it. Frank McConnell may know more. IIRC the big deal about ZMOB was that there was a sort of circular ring shifter that was used for message passing between processors. If processsor x wanted to send a message to processor y, processor x would put its message into the currently accessible ring bucket and the bucket's contents would eventually get shifted around to where it was accessible to processor y. I don't think there was any pretense of ZMOB being "super", just "parallel", but that was sufficiently interesting for CS research. But I never worked on it, I think I saw it once (a bunch of boards in rack-mounted cages, in a rack with a door), and I can't remember where I learned about it. Maybe one of the courses I took, maybe a friend who I think did hack on it a bit. -Frank McConnell From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 14:37:45 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: NEC Electra 28 Phone System References: <000a01c12ae2$879a5ae0$27bda98e@globetrotter.qc.ca> Message-ID: <001701c12e66$97636520$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Cleaning up and just ran across a filmstrip in a cannister labeled NEC: Electra-28. From looking at the frames it seems to be a marketing presentation for the phone system. The first frame says "focus and begin tape". It's free if anyone wants it - otherwise it's trash. -W From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 26 14:33:34 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: new stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice haul! Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Thanks to Tim, I've just picked up a DEC Pro-380. Now I have > micro versions of the VAX, PDP-8 and PDP-11 families! The 380 came > with the following: > > - RX50 > - RD52-A hard disk > - keyboard > - VR201 monitor, which will also be useful with my DECmate II > - VT220 terminal > - loads of documentation > - the following boards installed: > - DECNA ethernet (000042) > - Telephone Management System (00041) > - floppy controller (002004) > - hard disk controller (000401) > - color monitor cable > > I've not powered it up yet or gone through the documentation > but it certainly looks to be interesting. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 14:56:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: new stuff... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Nice haul! I just powered it up after putting it back together and it booted right into P/OS version 3. I had to go into the setup though and change the screen attributes back to monochrome since it was set up for the color monitor. I used the keyboard from my DECmate II because the Pro's keyboard doesn't have a cable. I did forget to mention that it also came with the 4-port serial board and it's breakout box, though it wasn't installed. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 26 14:53:20 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: OT: Clueless users, PC labels and color-codes Message-ID: <20010826195650.RLKT19005.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Chad Fernandez wrote: > I just went to a local computer show today. I was happy to find that a > few vendors had components available from disassembled computers or > whatever. I picked up a 3com 3C905-TX PCI ethernet card, an ATI Mach64 > video card, and a very nice Sound Blaster 16, all used of course. Keep an eye on the ATI. I've seen lots of cases where they exhibited weird behavior when used with non-Intel-chipset motherboards. > The > Mach64 had "Monitor" written in marker on the slot cover. Do office > people really need to remind themselves where to plug the monitor in? I > have also seen a 3.5" floppy drives marked "hard drive a:" and the 5.25" > floppy, marked, "floppy drive b:". What's the deal? I put printed labels on every system I sell, whether it's one I built, or a used machine I took in on trade. I used to use labels with icons printed on them but too many people didn't understand them. The printed labels cut support calls by at least 50 percent. I still get calls from people who can't figure out how to connect the AC power cable from the system to the wall outlet. All the recent ATX motherboards and expansion cards I've seen use the "Colorful PC99" standard, wherein the VGA port is blue, the audio output is light green, etc., but labels work best. It's always amusing to hear the system box referred to as the "modem" or "hard drive." On dual FDD systems, the 3.5" drive is the "hard drive," since the disks are "hard," not "floppy." About once a month someone comes in asking about buying a "computer with Microsoft on it." I love my customers ;>) Glen 0/0 From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 15:30:44 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Second Source i4004? References: <000a01c12ae2$879a5ae0$27bda98e@globetrotter.qc.ca> <001701c12e66$97636520$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003001c12e6d$fbc095e0$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> I was looking inside my ProLog M-900 and noticed a gold and ceramic chip labeled "INS4004D" socketed next to two i4002s. Does anyone know if National Semi second sourced the i4004? It also has the number "530" on the bottom which I suppose is a lot no. For those with GUI browsers, here is the best I could do with my camera: http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/ProLog4004.jpg -W From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 15:37:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Second Source i4004? In-Reply-To: Second Source i4004? (Wayne M. Smith) References: <000a01c12ae2$879a5ae0$27bda98e@globetrotter.qc.ca> <001701c12e66$97636520$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <003001c12e6d$fbc095e0$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <15241.24053.295183.774750@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 26, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I was looking inside my ProLog M-900 and noticed a gold and > ceramic chip labeled "INS4004D" socketed next to two i4002s. > Does anyone know if National Semi second sourced the i4004? > It also has the number "530" on the bottom which I suppose > is a lot no. > > For those with GUI browsers, here is the best I could do > with my camera: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/ProLog4004.jpg Hmm, it sure looks like it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 26 16:05:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: OT: Clueless users, PC labels and color-codes In-Reply-To: <20010826195650.RLKT19005.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > "hard drive." On dual FDD systems, the 3.5" drive is the "hard drive," > since the disks are "hard," not "floppy." About once a month someone comes Hey, always remember the adage: Floppy now, hard later. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From louiss at gate.net Sun Aug 26 16:09:36 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Second Source i4004? In-Reply-To: <15241.24053.295183.774750@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200108262109.RAA27575@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:37:09 -0400 (EDT), Dave McGuire wrote: #On August 26, Wayne M. Smith wrote: #> I was looking inside my ProLog M-900 and noticed a gold and #> ceramic chip labeled "INS4004D" socketed next to two i4002s. #> Does anyone know if National Semi second sourced the i4004? #> It also has the number "530" on the bottom which I suppose #> is a lot no. #> #> For those with GUI browsers, here is the best I could do #> with my camera: #> #> http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/ProLog4004.jpg # # Hmm, it sure looks like it! # Doesn't INS mean Intersil, not National Semi? Louis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 15:55:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <20010826061951.LVFK8611.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Aug 26, 1 02:26:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/ec8d2779/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 15:59:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: <3B886010.CF37EDD8@home.com> from "Doug Coward" at Aug 25, 1 07:33:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/52ff3aa9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 16:23:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <3B88775B.6B286F45@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Aug 26, 1 00:13:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/28796e81/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 17:00:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010826131535.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 26, 1 01:15:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 11605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/2560994d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 17:04:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: from "Dan Linder" at Aug 26, 1 12:44:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 703 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/4bca75e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 17:55:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: AC5954N clock chip (I think) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/52d7a687/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 18:27:30 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) (Tony Duell) References: <3.0.6.32.20010826131535.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <15241.34274.104596.393607@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 26, Tony Duell wrote: > Or you can make a 40*25 text display in about 3 chips (all of them > easy to obtain) that will drive the RGB inputs on a normal TV set. What sort of circuit, using which chips, did you have in mind here Tony? I was thinking about the TMS9918, but it requires a bank of 4116s and is hard to find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jss at subatomix.com Sun Aug 26 18:36:44 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Free: HP Software Message-ID: <20010826181520.Q733-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Ok, my interests haven't really spread to anything HP, so I'm not sure if this is usable or trash. First thing is a tape cartridge, about 5.5"x4", and it says it is 600' long, has 16 tracks, and is for use with HP 9144A and compatibles. It has the following label: : HP9000 Series 300 and 400 Cart 1 of 1 : HP-UX UPDATE : DONATED TurboVRX and PersonalVRX DEMONSTRATION : Software Contributed from : a variety of sources : p/n 98735-12000 Rev. 1.1 : COPYRIGHT (C) HEWLETT-PACKARD Co., 1990. Does anyone want this? It's yours for the cost of shipping. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Aug 26 19:10:34 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010826131535.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010827011034.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> At 11:00 pm 26/08/2001 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Incidentally, if I ever get good at this stuff, I'll probably take a ROM >> dump of my TRS-80 Model 102, and figure out how to update it into the 21st >> century (i.e. replace a 19 with a 20), and give it a 100-year new lease of >> life :) > >I must do that for the M100 sometime. It shouldn't be too hard to do. Apparently, there is an all-software patch; although I've not investigated it very far. It is, however, susceptible to corruption from BASIC, the memory it resides in being non-protectable. >Fortunately neither machine does an automatic day-of-week calculation >(you have to set DAY$ by hand), so the issue is just changing the 19 to >20 on the main menu, etc. Not hard to do Yup. In fact, the main issue would be finding the right "19" to change... >> More or less what's happening with me now.... Except i don't have a >> mainframe to play with, or indeed the space to keep a mainframe in.... > >The P850 is a mini, not a mainframe. It's just 1 10.5" high rackmount >chassis. Not that large (I find rackmount machines take up less space >than home micros, if only because you can stack them. The 'silly' cases >many micros are in with absolutely no right angles, and a top that slopes >in all direactions are impossible to stack things on top of... Very true... I think I could squeeze one rackmount in here, although access to it would be very difficult. > >I have a lot of the older HP calculator manals and program libraries, >too. Some of those programs are works of art. And FWIW, I have no >intention of using VB for anything... Well, it's useful for some things. Like earning me a stack of cash for the last 8 years :) >As I said the other day, I don't see the point of a calculator emulator >(if I have a powerful enough computer to run the emulator, why not just >solve the problem using it, without slowing it down by making it emulate >some other machine). But I most certainly do see the point in preserving >old calculators (particularly programmable ones) and using them to run >such programs. There is that. Also, no emulator could emulate those horrible clicky keys Sinclair used... OTOH, it would be an interesting thing to do (if not use), just to try to figure out how it all hung together. [Hysteresis] >> >> I had to go look "hysteresis" up... Still not 100% sure where/why that >> would be useful... > >OK, you want to make a striking clock. At the hour, you have to release >the stricking mechanism, which then operates the bell hammer the >appropriate number of times, and then shuts down. Thanks! >This idea works (and is used) in electronic circuits which need to be >triggered on edges of pulses rather than levels, too. I've used it myself >(an electronic state machine built from a D-type and a couple of gates) >several times. Ah - In fact, reading up on the replacement 6502, it mentions edge-triggered functions. >> [GPIB] >> >> >I'm pretty sure some HP 9000-series Unix boxes have HPIB disks, BTW... >> >> Blimey. I wonder if they'd work on a PET...? > >They'll plug in OK (and the magic smoke won't come out) but the command >sets are totally different. So LOAD and SAVE won't do the right thing. If >you want to write your own drivers it should be possible... :) A project for another day, perhaps... >> It could be the cost thing - AFAIR RS were always more expensive than >> Maplin, so (naturally) the school had Maplin catalogues and not RS (or > >As I keep on saying, my time (and insanity) is worth a lot more than the >minor diffeenve in price between RS and Maplin (in any case, Maplin are >not cheap any more...) Agreed - but it would be of more consequence to a schoolkid having to buy stuff. I'd also prefer well stocked to "cheapest"; it sounds like RS fit that bill. >[Maplin] >> Pretty much the same here, although I have to go all the way out to Marble >> Arch... I could go to Stratford, which is probably nearer, but invloves a > >I've only ever been to the Marble Arch shop once, and it seemed to be >very small and badly stocked. If I am in that area, I normally try >Henry's Radio (as was, now Henry's Audio Electronics), 404 Edgeware Road. Cheers, I'll give them a look in next time I'm over there. > >> drive; not something I like to do when the shops are open (too damn busy). > >How near is it to the Tube station? Isn't the Holborn shop nearer than >Marble Arch? Probably, but it's always shut when I find I need something... >> >A lathe becomes useful when you have other, related, hobbies like model >> >engineering. >> >> :) I'm deliberately trying to keep my number of hobbies (especially >> expensive ones) down; motor racing takes up a *lot* of space, time & money; > >You know, I'd have thought a lathe was essential for hackish motor >racing. To make things like bushes, spacers, special tools, and so on... Not really - my car uses mostly stock components, so no special machining is required. For things like cam grinds, etc., it goes back to the engine man - who does have all that sort of stuff. I just drive it (rather badly, at that). >[Connectors] >> True... I've used plug-block extensively in the past, largely because it > >To me a 'plug block' is one of those infernal solderless breadboards that >you stick ICs and other components into. Ah - I must mean "chocolate block", as described below. I've *never* used that sort of plug-block, veroboard was the closest thing to it I ever used. >Do you perhaps mean 'chocolate block' -- those screw terminal strips. I >don't like those much for in-line connectors that I am going to want to >disconnect and reconnect because you need to use a screwdriver to remove >and reconnect the wires. And the wires are not kept in sequence when removed. I had one block (about 20 wide) which *could* be plugged/unplugged properly, as it consisted of two parts. I've used it all, however, and not bought/found any more since. >> [PIC] >> > >> >If you want to make a processor from TTL chips, or from discrete >> >transistors, or even from valves, well, that's a reasonable thing to want >> >to do. It's going to be slower than many microprocessors you can buy now >> >[1], but that's probably not the point. You can't fail to learn a lot >> >about procesor design by making one. >> >> :) Can you *really* see me soldering hundreds of transistors onto a PCB? I > >Yes! Hmm. Maybe I ought to post up a picture of my workspace.... "Big" is not the first word that would spring to mind.... Mind you, I'm probably going to be moving come next year, hopefully to somewhere significantly bigger, which will leave room for this sort of thing. Incidentally, by lack of room, I mean I have free work surface of about 8"x14"; unless I go to the kitchen... [Bistables/Flipflops] > >A bistable (as in an Eccles-Jordan circuit [1]) can be built from just about >any 2 active devices (triodes, transistors, FETs, even relays). > >But to make a useful flip-flop you need 4 transistors (2 for the >bistable, 2 for input switching). HP used 4-transistor JK flip-flops in >the HP9100, for example (and if there'd been a simpler way they would >have used it) > >[1] Another old idea. The Eccles Jordan paper was published in 1919 IIRC. Hmm. I *have* got some learning to do... My electronics books should be here by Tuesday though :) >> >> Eek - self modifying code? Dangerous.... >> > >> >You mean you _don't_ write self-modifying code? Odd.... >> >> It was drilled into me from a very early age that self-modifying code was A >> Bad Thing. > >As I said, I am not a programmer, so I don't worry about such things. :) It plays havoc with your designs.... Imagine a circuit that could reconfigure itself at will... [DM displays] >Probably. New dot-matrix displays are not cheap, and surplus ones, while >they normally work fine are not the sort of thing you can depend on still >being available in a few months time... Maybe I'll just build a teletype... It should be possible to convert a typewriter ;) >Since you're getting a 'scope, you could try making a vector display (a >couple of DACs driving the 'scope in X-Y mode). Or you can make a 40*25 >text display in about 3 chips (all of them easy to obtain) that will >drive the RGB inputs on a normal TV set. Actually, that sounds much more promising... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 19:37:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1596 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/747905c9/attachment.ksh From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 20:08:05 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: Second Source i4004? References: <200108262109.RAA27575@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <008a01c12e94$ba974d80$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:37:09 -0400 (EDT), Dave McGuire wrote: > > #On August 26, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > #> I was looking inside my ProLog M-900 and noticed a gold and > #> ceramic chip labeled "INS4004D" socketed next to two i4002s. > #> Does anyone know if National Semi second sourced the i4004? > #> It also has the number "530" on the bottom which I suppose > #> is a lot no. > #> > #> For those with GUI browsers, here is the best I could do > #> with my camera: > #> > #> http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/ProLog4004.jpg > # > # Hmm, it sure looks like it! > # > Doesn't INS mean Intersil, not National Semi? > AFAIK, "INS" is the standard prefix for NSI chips. From dancohoe at oxford.net Sun Aug 26 20:56:26 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: pdp 11/94 available Message-ID: <3B89A8CA.511E9B93@oxford.net> I found two of these at a wreckers in Toronto on Friday. I bought one, but likely the other one will be available for a few hours Monday before it goes down. I didn't see any racks to go with them. If anyone is interested, I could see what I can do. I wouldn't be too difficult to get it to any of Detroit, Buffalo, Syracuse, Ottawa-Montral areas. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 20:09:50 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: OT: Clueless users, PC labels and color-codes References: Message-ID: <009001c12e94$f951a700$f027b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > "hard drive." On dual FDD systems, the 3.5" drive is the "hard drive," > > since the disks are "hard," not "floppy." About once a month someone comes > > Hey, always remember the adage: Floppy now, hard later. 8-) > And the punchline: "you can satisfy a computer with a 3 1/2 inch floppy". -W From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 20:05:21 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) (Adrian Vickers) References: <3.0.6.32.20010826131535.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010827011034.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <15241.40145.654818.210954@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 27, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >> >You mean you _don't_ write self-modifying code? Odd.... > >> > >> It was drilled into me from a very early age that self-modifying code was A > >> Bad Thing. > > > >As I said, I am not a programmer, so I don't worry about such things. > > :) It plays havoc with your designs.... Imagine a circuit that could > reconfigure itself at will... That's a whole different issue. Sorry, but I have to butt-in here. Self-modifying code is a time-proven technique frequently used by history's most clever programmers. Now in the face of RISC-y things like out-of-order instruction execution and such, it's generally not possible, but on stuff like PDP10/PDP11 machines it was commonly employed with much success. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 19:54:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010827011034.00a463c0@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Aug 27, 1 01:10:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/692e8015/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 20:57:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) In-Reply-To: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <15241.43273.563013.642345@phaduka.neurotica.com> This is great, Tony, thanks! I will try to find a handful of those SAA5245 chips. I work primarily with PICs, so an I2C interface is very handy for me. You rock. -Dave On August 27, Tony Duell wrote: > I forgot to answer an earlier message asking just what the 3 chips were > that you could use to get video output from a microcontroller system > > 1) An SAA5243 (for the UK/Europe -- I think the 60Hz-vertical version is > the SAA5245) This is actually a teletext display IC for televisions, and > is controlled via an I2C bus (2 wires). The nice feature is that the > display memory can be read/written via the I2C bus, so it can be used as > a general-purpose video display. Actually, this chips is probably > discontinued, but there are more recent chips with the same features, and > anyway the SAA5243 is easy to get either from scrap TVs (the > Thomson/Ferguson ICC5 chassis, for example) or from TV spares places. > > 2) An 8K*8 static RAM, like a 6264 > > 3) Some way of generating a 6MHz clock. A 74LS04 + a crystal, for example. > > You might want to put some kind of buffer chip on the outputs of the > SAA5243 (I used a 74LS541 when I built something like this) which would > increase the chip count to 4 chips. > > The I2C bus needs 2 lines from the microcontroller (clock and data). Each > line should be capable of being driven as an open-collector output, and > read as an input. The port lines on a PIC are fine. You don't need access > to the microcontroller bus. > > You get a 40*25 text display (upper and lower case) with teletext-style > block graphics and serial colour attributes. Not bad for 3 chips and 2 > port lines. > > There was an article on doing this in Datafile (HPCC (UK HP calculator > user club) journal) in 1998/1999 (either the last issue of 1998 or the > first issue of 1999 I think). > > -tony -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 26 21:05:02 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice) Message-ID: <005801c12e9e$71264b10$bc789a8d@ajp166> >"Bill Sudbrink" wrote: >> The University Of Maryland had something called ZMOB or >> Z-MOB in the early 1980s, which (if memory serves) was >> 256 4MHz Z80s, several Megs of bank-switched memory, etc. >> I never got to actually play with it or even see it, >> only heard about it. Frank McConnell may know more. That was an inspired design. I modeled it somewhat with a 4/Z80 S100 crate back in '81. I learned alot about parallelism, process sharing and multi-CPU task building and scheduling. In the end one 16mhz z80 can and will blow the doors off of 4 4/mhz Z80s generally. The complexity of supporting multiple CPUs makes it hard to get significantly improved performance without application tailoring. Allison From Diff at Mac.com Sun Aug 26 21:28:55 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:46 2005 Subject: pdp 11/94 available References: <3B89A8CA.511E9B93@oxford.net> Message-ID: <004501c12ea0$0565b080$0201000a@laboffice> Hey, I am very interested if no one else is. Im down in maryland, I would either be willing to pay you shipping in handeling, or I can probably find a friend up in that area to grab it and ship it to me. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cohoe" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 9:56 PM Subject: pdp 11/94 available > I found two of these at a wreckers in Toronto on Friday. > I bought one, but likely the other one will be available for a few hours > Monday before it goes down. I didn't see any racks to go with them. If > anyone is interested, I could see what I can do. I wouldn't be too > difficult to get it to any of Detroit, Buffalo, Syracuse, Ottawa-Montral > areas. > From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 26 19:42:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <3B883DC3.72D1376B@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <3796.639T2050T1026027optimus@canit.se> John W. Linville skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> John W. Linville skrev: >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> >> Gordon C. Zaft skrev: >> >> >> >> > Linux != x86. >> >> >> >> Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not >> >> be. >> >> >That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a > > >> Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an m68k/MIPS/PPC meainstream distro >> in the bookshop, or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms? >> Usually not. Yes, you can run "ls" and "more", as wellas "ifconfig", but >> beyond that? What about Netscape? >Are there any "mainstream" m68k or MIPS systems still around that would >deserve a mainstream distibution? I don't know - who cares? >PPC is covered by (at least) Yellow Dog (www.yellowdoglinux.com). Sparc >and Alpha (while it survives) are supported by a number of >distributions, including Red Hat. According to the Yellow Dog website, >Borders is stocking their distribution at some of its stores. And then there's the software question. >I'm not sure about Netscape, but I'm sure Mozilla is available for these >distributions. Koffice, OpenOffice, etc are probably available as >binaries for these distributions. Besides, now you are talking about >which applications vendors support what platforms. Believe it or not, >Unix admins used to survive by (horror of horrors) downloading source >and compiling for their own systems. The problem is that not all software is open-source, and this means that while Linux support for card X or program Y may be available, it's only for platform Z. Just like with NT. >Your original complaint was that "Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT", >which would seem to apply to the OS rather than the applications >vendors. Or are you changing the rules, now that you've been called on >your bluster? Why does it always turn out like this when someting is debated with UNIX people? It's always "but that's just your default .rc file" or "but that's no part of the OS" or "but GNU is not UNIX" or "but that's not the same version of emacs". An OS without programs is useless. UNIX systems are generally bundled with a lot of useful programs like ls and ifconfig, but beyond that? Back on track... What bluster? When I said that Linux was as multiplatform as NT, I thought that was a very obvious comparison. Both are i386-centred (you must agree that Linux is i386-centred), i386-originated (obviously) OSes which have since been ported to other platforms. Which means that you may run Winmine or SOL.EXE on MIPS or PPC machines, but not download loads and loads of binaries from TUCOWS. Which is much the same as for non-i386 Linuxes. >> Embedded systems are a moot point, since they're in an entirely different >> field and reduces Linux to a kernel as opposed to the desktop/server OS >> which is what most people know Linux as. >Again, this smells like rule changing. Claiming that "Linux is as >i386-centred as Win NT" and then refusing to consider Linux running on >anything other than an i386 is like declaring allegations to be facts by >refusing to hear any contradictary evidence. Windows NT runs on Alphas too, and who cares? Your embedded argument smells like nitpicking. We can both bring up a zillion instances of Linux and NT on other platforms, but individual cases are beside the point. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 26 19:48:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <20010826024719.3041.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <1101.639T1950T1085387optimus@canit.se> Ken Seefried skrev: >>What about Netscape? >Several alternative platforms run Netscape just fine, even if some of them >are emulating the version of Unix that originally ran on that chip. But then there's an AmigaOS port of Netscape as well, by that line of reasoning. >Of course, trying to make such sweeping statements about Linux based on what >can be purchased commercially in a bookstore is like making judgements about >advanced telecommunications based on a visit to Radio Shack. Which is a valid judgement if it's about the state of advanced telecommunications in the hands of common people. By going to Radio Shack (I suppose, never having been there), I'm sure you could make quite valid judgments about the common availability of DAT recorders, MO drives and SACD players. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I can't understand ANY current MICROS~1 product names! Are they now created with a random word generator? What is the intent behind the name "Visual Studio" for their compiler suite? What is "Interdev"? Why is the Virus Transfer Protocol product named "Outlook"? Grumpy Ol' Fred From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 26 22:01:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <002f01c12c80$1b9266e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <953.639T850T2414719optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >With respect to the Commodore choice to put HPIB on their computers, as >opposed to a parallel port, there was a fellow here in Denver who cooked up a >circuit that allowed one to attach a then-common EPSON printer to the HPIB, >thereby making the computer into a useful tool. He became rich beyond his >wildest dreams, and started a company called "Progressive Peripherals" which >may in fact still be in operation. Could that be the Progressive Peripherals and Software (PP&S) which produced a lot of different boards for the Amiga? BTW, Dick, are you allergic towards snipping? You just quoted about twenty- five times the amount of lines you added. Was that necessary or did you just do that to make my telco richer and me a little bit poorer? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it! For the full details, check out . From optimus at canit.se Sun Aug 26 22:06:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <15238.26490.346798.802855@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <820.639T2900T2466237optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: > Having seen the inside of a recent PeeCee a few weeks ago, there's >NOTHING elegant going on there. How could three high-integration, surface mounted chips, a ZIF socket and a couple of card-edge connectors ever be elegant? Modern PC mainboards have progressed so far that there is no real choice regarding the layout or general design for the mobo designer. You have a dozen functions crammed into three chips and a standard form factor, a standard colour scheme, a standard for everything and standard chips. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Wenn ich ein Junge w?r / das wu?te ich so gut / was so ein junger Boy / aus lauter Liebe tut /?ich w?rde in die Schwulenscene gehn /?und sexy Boys den Kopf verdrehn / ich h?tt genug Verkehr / wenn ich ein Junge w?r. Wenn ich ein Junge w?r - Nina Hagen From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 26 22:08:43 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <953.639T850T2414719optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 27 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > BTW, Dick, are you allergic towards snipping? You just quoted about twenty- > five times the amount of lines you added. Was that necessary or did you just > do that to make my telco richer and me a little bit poorer? BTW, Iggy, you just made my Telco a little richer and me a little poorer by complaining about Dick's snipping problem. I don't care that much though. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sun Aug 26 22:10:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: <1101.639T1950T1085387optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 27 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > judgments about the common availability of DAT recorders, MO drives and SACD > players. I've bought both a DAT deck and a SACD deck (the latter via special order) through Radio Shack. I wouldn't recommend it though. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 26 19:47:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting References: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <001d01c12e91$dc323ca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I mentioned this a while back, but, because it produces such excellent results, I'd recommend you consider the Dow Corning Silastic moldmaking materials. You can take almost any plastic part, glue it together if it's broken, sand off the seam, and then, using whatever polyester (figerglass) or acrylic (e.g. clear-cast) room temperature curing casting plastic, reproduce it in the Silastic mold with GREAT precision. It will even pick up the finish on the surfaces. If you carefully prepare the model prior to making the mold, the resulting product, almost from the "git-go" will be a perfect replica of the original. This helps if the original is the wrong color, material, shape (you can modify the original), or whatever else you want to change. Check the Dow Corning web site for materials guidance. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 9:28 PM Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Don't recall this ever coming up before. I don't need to do it with anything now, but might in the future so thought I'd solicit any ideas from the listmembers. For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that get broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the realm of the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? For example - a switch on a DEC PC04 where you have 3 switches but are missing one. Can it easily be done to make a casting of the part in some kind of clay, then work with dyes to get the color right and pour in a plastic or resin and thus create another identical switch? I'm sure there's a lot of side issues that come up. Some parts need to be hard, some ever so slightly flexible. Others need to be a solid material, and still others would need to be somewhat opaque to let light shine through. I'm thinking of like front panel switches or light covers. Anyone ever try this route or is it silly to even attempt non-professionally? Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010826/be0fb2dd/attachment.html From ernestls at home.com Sun Aug 26 22:54:04 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Hans Franke's trek continues In-Reply-To: <20010822202614.91201.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:26 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Hans Franke's trek continues > > > > For those people who have been (or will be) part of Hans' trek across > the U.S. on his Ural, I can say that he has made it as far as > Columbus, OH. He did stay a few days here to fix a crack in his > gas tank and left for parts West this afternoon. I helped him > box up his H-8 and accessories, leaving him more room to collect > stuff as he makes his way to California. > > I did manage to get a couple of pix of his "RV" (cargo trike with > attached pop-up tent)... There's a Ural repair/distribution shop next door to a place I used to work, in Preston, WA. Preston is a small town just east of Seattle/Bellevue, so if he makes it out here, I'll send him their way. I'm sure that they would love to see his bike, and perhaps do a few repairs on it as well. However, the bikes that they were selling look quite a bit different than his three-wheeler but they still had the "vintage" look to them, with side cars and all. E. From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Aug 26 23:44:48 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: more PDP-11 / PDP-12 scans up Message-ID: <20010826234448.A28485@mrbill.net> Various PDP-12/LINC brochures: http://www.decdocs.org/docs/pdp12 An 11/23 brochure: http://www.decdocs.org/docs/11-23-brochure More stuff on the way (price lists, etc). This is just what I got done the other night. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From fernande at internet1.net Mon Aug 27 01:22:24 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: Message-ID: <3B89E720.957C9FF4@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Argh!!! A 3.5" floppy is in no sense a hard drive... Yeah that was another interesting aspect of the label job. It of course means it was user made.... as if the user was somehow going to forget what to put into the drive, and try and insert a 5.25" floppy by mistake! > Err, are you complaining about labelling connectors. It's odd, but I've > labelled connectors on a lot of my machines so I know what they are. > There are not hat many different types of connectors in use, and > mis-connecting stuff can prove expensive. I can see manufacturer labeling ports, and a user/installer labeling ports that may not be common or standard, or possibly easily confused. I can't see a good reason for a user to label the everyday stuff that should be obvious, like the floppy drives or the video port. > > For those of you who think it's unneccessary, let's see how you do with > the connectors on the PC/XT on my desk : I'll try, but I don't know what a DA or DC is. Are they the proper names for what many people would still call a db connector? > > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 don't know > > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male DC37, (b,c) ending > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower ribbon cables than > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) > > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, M$ bus mouse perhaps? > > Slot 4 : RCA phono socket, female DE9 That's your video card I think. > > Slot 5 : Female DE9, female DB25 serial ports > > Slot 6 : Female DC37 again, I 'm not sure what a DC connector is.... is it a floppy controller? I can't recall the pin count. > Slot 7 : Male DB25 parallel port? > > Slot 8 : Female DC37 a second floppy controller? > > Also on the back : another male DB25, female 5 pin DIN, male and female > IEC mains connectors. The DB25 could be another parallel port, the din 5 your keyboard, and I don't know what IEC is, but since you say mains I assume that's your power cord and monitor power points. > > I'll be impressed if anyone identifies all of the above. I might do a better jon, if I actually had the computer in front of me, even if I didn't pop the top. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 27 01:32:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Hans Franke's trek continues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: > > For those people who have been (or will be) part of Hans' trek across > > the U.S. on his Ural, I can say that he has made it as far as > > Columbus, OH. He did stay a few days here to fix a crack in his > > gas tank and left for parts West this afternoon. I helped him > > box up his H-8 and accessories, leaving him more room to collect > > stuff as he makes his way to California. > > > > I did manage to get a couple of pix of his "RV" (cargo trike with > > attached pop-up tent)... > > There's a Ural repair/distribution shop next door to a place I used to work, > in Preston, WA. Preston is a small town just east of Seattle/Bellevue, so if > he makes it out here, I'll send him their way. I'm sure that they would love > to see his bike, and perhaps do a few repairs on it as well. However, the > bikes that they were selling look quite a bit different than his > three-wheeler but they still had the "vintage" look to them, with side cars > and all. Hans last called me from somewhere in Missouri where he had broken down yet again: something having to do with the gearbox. He says he will probably have to scrap the Washington leg of his journey so that he can get to California in time for the VCF. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Aug 27 07:22:38 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B89E720.957C9FF4@internet1.net> Message-ID: The locals here in Ky call the 3.5" floppies "hard disks" too - I guess because the hard outer casing. It's difficult to explain to them that it's still a floppy disk as the revolving disk inside of that case is flexible - or "floppy" and that a hard drive gets it's name from having hard platters inside of it. Of course I may be biased having grown up in Chicago with schools that teach you that "I ain't got no ideal" or "might could" are improper uses of English and that the earth was found to be round :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 1:22 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? -> -> -> Tony Duell wrote: -> > Argh!!! A 3.5" floppy is in no sense a hard drive... -> -> Yeah that was another interesting aspect of the label job. It of course -> means it was user made.... as if the user was somehow going to forget -> what to put into the drive, and try and insert a 5.25" floppy by -> mistake! -> -> > Err, are you complaining about labelling connectors. It's odd, but I've -> > labelled connectors on a lot of my machines so I know what they are. -> > There are not hat many different types of connectors in use, and -> > mis-connecting stuff can prove expensive. -> -> I can see manufacturer labeling ports, and a user/installer labeling -> ports that may not be common or standard, or possibly easily confused. -> I can't see a good reason for a user to label the everyday stuff that -> should be obvious, like the floppy drives or the video port. -> -> > -> > For those of you who think it's unneccessary, let's see how you do with -> > the connectors on the PC/XT on my desk : -> -> I'll try, but I don't know what a DA or DC is. Are they the proper -> names for what many people would still call a db connector? -> -> > -> > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 -> -> don't know -> > -> > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male DC37, -> (b,c) ending -> > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower ribbon -> cables than -> > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 -> -> No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) -> -> > -> > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 -> -> The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, M$ bus mouse -> perhaps? -> -> > -> > Slot 4 : RCA phono socket, female DE9 -> -> That's your video card I think. -> -> > -> > Slot 5 : Female DE9, female DB25 -> -> serial ports -> -> > -> > Slot 6 : Female DC37 -> -> again, I 'm not sure what a DC connector is.... is it a floppy -> controller? I can't recall the pin count. -> -> > Slot 7 : Male DB25 -> -> parallel port? -> > -> > Slot 8 : Female DC37 -> -> a second floppy controller? -> -> > -> > Also on the back : another male DB25, female 5 pin DIN, male and female -> > IEC mains connectors. -> -> The DB25 could be another parallel port, the din 5 your keyboard, and I -> don't know what IEC is, but since you say mains I assume that's your -> power cord and monitor power points. -> -> > -> > I'll be impressed if anyone identifies all of the above. -> -> I might do a better jon, if I actually had the computer in front of me, -> even if I didn't pop the top. -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> From pechter at bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com Mon Aug 27 07:26:10 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Aug 26, 2001 11:04:44 pm" Message-ID: <200108271226.f7RCQAn05225@bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com> > > > > I found a Tektronix 465 o-scope today for $50 - it's missing probes, and > > the owner was going to look for the manual, but I'm wondering if this > > would be a good scope for hobby purposes? > That's a great field service scope and was the standard at DEC. I'd have killed for one at 3 to 4 times the price. > > It's not a 'good' scope, it's an _Excellent_ 'scope. > > FWIW, these normally sell for a few hundred pounds/dollars (at least in > the UK), so you did well! > > -tony Tony -- it's probably that he got it from a downsizing company rather than a reseller that buys them up and marks them up. I saw the same thing at Concurrent Computer -- but I couldn't get them to let me get one of the 465's and the resellers marked them up from $50 to $400. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Aug 27 08:52:11 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: <200108271226.f7RCQAn05225@bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com> Message-ID: We used them for a while in USAF electronics training and field use too (of course they had an AN/USM number) before they went to Tek 454 and 453 units. I miss the 465's but between my Tek 454A analog and my HP 45201D digital scope I'm pretty well set for most needs. Of course the IEEE-488 on the HP is nice too. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Pechter -> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:26 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? -> -> -> > > -> > > I found a Tektronix 465 o-scope today for $50 - it's missing -> probes, and -> > > the owner was going to look for the manual, but I'm wondering if this -> > > would be a good scope for hobby purposes? -> > -> -> That's a great field service scope and was the standard at DEC. -> I'd have killed for one at 3 to 4 times the price. -> -> > -> > It's not a 'good' scope, it's an _Excellent_ 'scope. -> > -> > FWIW, these normally sell for a few hundred pounds/dollars (at -> least in -> > the UK), so you did well! -> > -> > -tony -> -> Tony -- it's probably that he got it from a downsizing company -> rather than a -> reseller that buys them up and marks them up. -> -> I saw the same thing at Concurrent Computer -- but I couldn't get them -> to let me get one of the 465's and the resellers marked them up from $50 -> to $400. -> -> Bill -> -- -> Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a -> villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller -> bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org -> From pete.rickard at carlingtech.com Mon Aug 27 05:36:01 2001 From: pete.rickard at carlingtech.com (Pete Rickard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections Message-ID: <200108271436.JAA60719@opal.tseinc.com> "Iggy Drougge" wrote: > The device in the kitchen for baking small spray-painted articles > can be used for pizza and muffins. [Pete Turnbull] I read in Electronic Musician, or some similar mag, of a way to get a professional enamel finish on metal 19" rack plates: the author said to place the spray-painted piece into an oven set at 200 deg F, turning off the heat after closing the door. Do you have any experiences on getting a smooth, durable finish, etc. ? TIA, -Pete - - - - - Pete Rickard Carling Technologies Plainville CT [USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/03746410/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 1408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/03746410/attachment.bin From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Aug 27 10:41:12 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B11717@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Here's a little help, I think :-) ... ! > For those of you who think it's unneccessary, let's see how ! > you do with ! > the connectors on the PC/XT on my desk : ! ! I'll try, but I don't know what a DA or DC is. Are they the proper ! names for what many people would still call a db connector? ! ! > ! > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 ! ! don't know 15 - joystick port, 25 is printer port, and I bet these go to the same card as slot 5, the DB 9 and DB25 serial ports... ! > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male ! > DC37, (b,c) ending ! > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower ! > ribbon cables than ! > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 ! ! No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) Hard drive controller? ! > ! > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 ! ! The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, ! M$ bus mouse ! perhaps? ! ! > ! > Slot 4 : RCA phono socket, female DE9 ! ! That's your video card I think. ! ! > ! > Slot 5 : Female DE9, female DB25 ! ! serial ports ! ! > ! > Slot 6 : Female DC37 ! ! again, I 'm not sure what a DC connector is.... is it a floppy ! controller? I can't recall the pin count. ! ! > Slot 7 : Male DB25 ! ! parallel port? ! > ! > Slot 8 : Female DC37 ! ! a second floppy controller? ! ! > ! > Also on the back : another male DB25, female 5 pin DIN, ! male and female ! > IEC mains connectors. ! ! The DB25 could be another parallel port, the din 5 your ! keyboard, and I ! don't know what IEC is, but since you say mains I assume that's your ! power cord and monitor power points. ! ! > I'll be impressed if anyone identifies all of the above. ! ! I might do a better jon, if I actually had the computer in ! front of me, ! even if I didn't pop the top. ! ! Chad Fernandez So, how did we do? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 11:22:45 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B11717@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > ! > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 > 15 - joystick port, 25 is printer port, and I bet these go to the same card > as slot 5, the DB 9 and DB25 serial ports... The most common uses in a PC for a female DA15 is joystick. The most common uses in a PC for a FEMALE DB25 is printer. But the FEMALE DB25 could be SCSI, and the female DB15 could be sound. But keep in mind that Tony's machine might not be very ordinary. > ! > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male > ! > DC37, (b,c) ending > ! > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower > ! > ribbon cables than > ! > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 > ! No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) > Hard drive controller? EPROM programmer, expansion chassis? Although male DB25s are most often serial, and FEMALE DB25s are most often parallel, they also get used for a LOT of random other general purposes. > ! > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 > ! The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, > ! M$ bus mouse > ! perhaps? Based on Tony's feelings about mini-din, I'd have to assume that it is a commersial product that he has yet to get around to customizing. Non-maskable interrupt/hardware debug assist (Atron, ...)? > ! > Slot 4 : RCA phono socket, female DE9 > ! That's your video card I think. The most common card for a PC with RCA socket and female DE9 is CGA. No homemade notch for access to the 4 and 6 pin bergs? > ! > Slot 5 : Female DE9, female DB25 > ! serial ports FEMALE!!!! The most common card for a PC with FEMALE DE9 and FEMALE DB25 is the IBM "Monochrome Display and Printer" No notch for access to the 6 pin berg? > ! > Slot 6 : Female DC37 > ! again, I 'm not sure what a DC connector is.... is it a floppy > ! controller? I can't recall the pin count. The most common card for a PC with female DC37 is the IBM Floppy disk controller. But it could be SCSI, expansion chassis, or miscellaneous homebrew. > ! > Slot 7 : Male DB25 > ! parallel port? MALE!!! The most common use of a MALE DB25 for a PC is serial. > ! > Slot 8 : Female DC37 ! ! a second floppy controller? > Also on the back : another male DB25, female 5 pin DIN, ! male and > female IEC mains connectors. ! ! The DB25 could be another > parallel port, MALE!!! serial > the din 5 your ! keyboard, and I ! don't know what IEC > is, but since you say mains I assume that's your ! power cord and > monitor power points. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1343.monmouth.com Mon Aug 27 11:47:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1343.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at "Aug 27, 2001 09:22:45 am" Message-ID: <200108271647.f7RGlqS06318@bg-tc-ppp1343.monmouth.com> > > ! > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 > > 15 - joystick port, 25 is printer port, and I bet these go to the same card > > as slot 5, the DB 9 and DB25 serial ports... > > The most common uses in a PC for a female DA15 is joystick. > The most common uses in a PC for a FEMALE DB25 is printer. > But the FEMALE DB25 could be SCSI, and the female DB15 could be sound. > But keep in mind that Tony's machine might not be very ordinary. > > > > ! > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male > > ! > DC37, (b,c) ending > > ! > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower > > ! > ribbon cables than > > ! > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 > > ! No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) > > Hard drive controller? > EPROM programmer, expansion chassis? > > Although male DB25s are most often serial, and FEMALE DB25s are most often > parallel, they also get used for a LOT of random other general purposes. > > > > ! > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 > > ! The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, > > ! M$ bus mouse > > ! perhaps? > > Based on Tony's feelings about mini-din, I'd have to assume that it is a > commersial product that he has yet to get around to customizing. > Non-maskable interrupt/hardware debug assist (Atron, ...)? > > ! > Slot 8 : Female DC37 > ! ! a second floppy controller? > > Also on the back : another male DB25, female 5 pin DIN, ! male and > > female IEC mains connectors. ! ! The DB25 could be another > > parallel port, External connections for ESDI/MFM (ST412) on the bus? Maybe even the rare SMD interface (could that work on only 37 pins for the A Cable? I've SEEN tape drives using 37 for QIC36 or QIC02. 5 Pin Din keyboard or Cassette -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 27 11:55:55 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office people... In-Reply-To: References: <3B89E720.957C9FF4@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010827125555.009bc100@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Russ Blakeman may have mentioned these words: >The locals here in Ky call the 3.5" floppies "hard disks" too - I guess >because the hard outer casing. It's difficult to explain to them that it's >still a floppy disk as the revolving disk inside of that case is flexible - >or "floppy" and that a hard drive gets it's name from having hard platters >inside of it. Of course I may be biased having grown up in Chicago with >schools that teach you that "I ain't got no ideal" or "might could" are >improper uses of English and that the earth was found to be round :-) It's not hard at all -- Where I used to work our secretary kept calling 3.5" floppies "hard disks" and wouldn't change her language at my copious requests & sincere attempts at re-education... So one day, I took apart a dead 3.5" floppy disk to extract the floppy media within, & one of the platters from my first hard drive ever (an old 5.25" RLL 66Megger - so this is almost on-topic... ;-) put them easily accessible in my briefcase & went to work. I stopped by her desk, popped open my briefcase, pulled out the floppy media & threw it at her. It (of course) flopped all over the place, and I said "that's out of one of these *floppy* disks - that's why we call them "floppies." I then took out the hard drive disk & threw it in her general direction (but missing her by a few feet) and bounced it off of her desk with a *very* loud bang! She said "Holy Shit! What the hell was that?!?" I said "that came out of an old hard drive -- *that's why we call them hard drives*!!" She *never* made that mistake ever again... :-) Education is *such* a wonderful thing!!! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 27 11:50:33 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: (Semi OT) Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections References: <200108271436.JAA60719@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <002e01c12f18$63ebc180$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> From: Pete > to place the spray-painted piece into an oven set at 200 deg F, > turning off the heat after closing the door. Do you have any > experiences... Yes. I'd say be careful with this idea. When I tried it it warped the plastic of a pocket knife I was working with. I think the radiant heat of the elements may be greater than the Air temp. Make sure it has been off for a while, isn't over 200, and check periodically. John A. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Aug 27 12:27:40 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Message-ID: Plastic/metal replacement computer parts, I'll bet the train hobbyists have some knowledge about recreating metal/plastic parts for computers. I have seen articles about how they have created/machined/cast entire trains from raw materials. Pointer to site for manufacturer of miniature machine tools. http://www.sherline.com/ Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 12:30:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) In-Reply-To: <15241.43273.563013.642345@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 26, 1 09:57:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/c5e1045b/attachment.ksh From dlinder at uiuc.edu Mon Aug 27 12:55:09 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: <200108271226.f7RCQAn05225@bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > That's a great field service scope and was the standard at DEC. > I'd have killed for one at 3 to 4 times the price. Alas - I lost out on it. The Fates decided it should not be so. For the future, what are some good scopes (sort of in the Tek 465 quality/feature range)? This results from me not taking money to a HAMfest - trying to curb my spending, since i never find anything great - until the scope that I lost out on. Ah well... - Dan Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From Diff at Mac.com Mon Aug 27 13:04:56 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Solbourne VME Boards Message-ID: <001801c12f22$c97d2520$0201000a@laboffice> Hello, I was just working on my Solbourne 5/600, and I decided to take a look at its VME boards. Unfortunatly, the Solbourne Shack webpage offers little information on identifying boards, and the few images of VME boards are no longer availible. So here are some of the boards I am curious about. The first board is labled Heurikon on both of its tabs, and has the following lables over its connectors: Serial, FPI, FMS 1 2 3 4 (over a set of LEDs), reset, and SCSI. It seems to be a Motorola M68000 board of some sort as it has two small chips on it which are labled MC68000R10 and MC68450RC10, with further markings below them. Board number two is a 6U VME card with 4 large AMD branded chips on it, and two sub boards which lie flat on the VME card, it has a 10 pin plug on the back (just pins, it is 5x2) which extends from a daughter card which has an AMD chip labled Am29000 - 16GC, a minidin connector, 2 small LEDs, and then 4 large bulb like objects, which are alternatingly black, and red, the connectors for those are labled AT&T. I then have 4 boards which are covered with chips, the majority of which are TI or Philips (?) branded. The ones which are in sockets have MX07?? or MX7?? (with ? representing any number) on them. These boards have no external connectors, nor back plates. Finally, I have a board with the Solbourne logo on one tab, and MUX on the other, and it then has 3 50 pin cables along the rear. It seems highly likely to me that this is a Xylogics 781 16-port MUX. Anyone know what these cards are? Zach Malone From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 12:47:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B89E720.957C9FF4@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Aug 27, 1 02:22:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/f85ca878/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 12:52:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B11717@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Aug 27, 1 11:41:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/2c7bfc11/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 13:03:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 27, 1 09:22:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/61e3b5b8/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 27 13:25:42 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: References: <200108271226.f7RCQAn05225@bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com> Message-ID: >On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > >> That's a great field service scope and was the standard at DEC. >> I'd have killed for one at 3 to 4 times the price. > >Alas - I lost out on it. The Fates decided it should not be so. > >For the future, what are some good scopes (sort of in the Tek 465 >quality/feature range)? I know my Tek TDS-220 is the recommended replacement for a Tek 465B. I bought it new when I needed a scope a couple years ago, and love it. It's much easier to use than a 465B if you don't know what you're doing, and it's nice and SMALL (and light), which for me is a big plus! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 27 13:28:46 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Memory use in new vs old machines. In-Reply-To: <1249.636T2850T1416879optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Aug 24, 2001 02:21:57 am" Message-ID: <200108271828.f7RISkN19538@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> Iggy Drougge wrote: > >So what's your point? How much memory do you have on this machine? What > >fraction of main memory is 932,131 bytes? Given dynamic linking, what > >fraction is 11,811 bytes? The PC tools live on big memory machines, there > >is no motivation to make them small. On my 68HC11 cross compilation system > >compiling hello.c gives me 210 bytes. If it gave me 11K bytes I'd throw it > >out because the most I can work with is 64K and 11K is too much to spend on > >printing a string. > > I may be old-fashioned here, but I'm of the opinion that my expensive and > valuable memory should be available for my leisure, not wasted by lazy > programmers with lousy compilers. How much memory I may have is my business, > the programmer's business is to make sure that as little as possible is wasted > on applications when it could be used for data or other applications. I'd agree, you are old fashioned. Size of an executable does not represent it's memory usage, but it's disk usage. Based upon what I see for Solaris, that 1MB hello_world will use about 24K of memory when run. That's still excessive because it's statically linked. By statically linking the programmer has ensured that there will be two copies of all of the library routines needed to run that bit of code in memory simultaneously. (There are systems that are exceptions to the rule and won't multiply map identical pages.) On an OS that supports virtual memory, all the portions of the library that support start up, printf(), and exit() are already going to be in memory because some other program is already using them. Trying to save bytes by writing your own "low memory" printing routines, you waste space. It's like not using routines in your Apple ]['s ROM because you could write your own smaller ones. It's not like you're going to free up any ROM space. Remember my 40-some byte linux hello world that was in a 300-something byte file? It's memory usage is 8K+system overhead. (One page code space, one page data (stack) space). Would have been 12K if I hadn't stored the string in code space. The system overhead is significantly larger than 8K. I'm not disagreeing that it is the programmers job to make his code as memory efficient as possible. I just think that the job is a bit different than what you might expect. Memory efficiency in a VM OS is an attempt to keep the minimum resident working set. Using existing widely used shared libraries (libc, libm) is part of it. Not doing linear searches through large data structures to find a single data item is part of it. Using memory mapping to access large files is part of it. Keeping your non-resident set small isn't really that useful unless you are also disk storage constrained. On a non VM system, fighting for every byte, and replacing library routines is OK. On a VM system, be nice to the VM subststem and it will be nice to you. Eric From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Aug 27 13:31:13 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: miniscribes 3085 Message-ID: Pointer to miniscribe 3085 http://www.thetechpage.com/cgi-bin/db/db.cgi?displayItem=1832 heads 7 cylinders 1170 sectors 17 Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 13:30:24 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Solbourne VME Boards In-Reply-To: Solbourne VME Boards (Zach Malone) References: <001801c12f22$c97d2520$0201000a@laboffice> Message-ID: <15242.37312.858402.566294@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 27, Zach Malone wrote: > first board is labled Heurikon on both of its tabs, and has the following > lables over its connectors: Serial, FPI, FMS 1 2 3 4 (over a set of LEDs), > reset, and SCSI. It seems to be a Motorola M68000 board of some sort as it > has two small chips on it which are labled MC68000R10 and MC68450RC10, with Not sure what this one is...likely a SCSI host adapter but perhaps more. The 68450 is a DMA controller. > further markings below them. Board number two is a 6U VME card with 4 large > AMD branded chips on it, and two sub boards which lie flat on the VME card, > it has a 10 pin plug on the back (just pins, it is 5x2) which extends from a > daughter card which has an AMD chip labled Am29000 - 16GC, a minidin > connector, 2 small LEDs, and then 4 large bulb like objects, which are > alternatingly black, and red, the connectors for those are labled AT&T. I This is a FDDI interface...Interphase 4211, most likely. The bulblike objects are rubber covers over ST fiber connectors. > then have 4 boards which are covered with chips, the majority of which are > TI or Philips (?) branded. The ones which are in sockets have MX07?? or > MX7?? (with ? representing any number) on them. These boards have no > external connectors, nor back plates. Finally, I have a board with the Not sure what this one is. > Solbourne logo on one tab, and MUX on the other, and it then has 3 50 pin > cables along the rear. It seems highly likely to me that this is a Xylogics > 781 16-port MUX. That sounds correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 13:42:15 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? (Dan Linder) References: <200108271226.f7RCQAn05225@bg-tc-ppp734.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <15242.38023.154700.768226@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 27, Dan Linder wrote: > Alas - I lost out on it. The Fates decided it should not be so. Very bad news... :-( > For the future, what are some good scopes (sort of in the Tek 465 > quality/feature range)? Tek 453, 454, 465, 475...453/454 has a smaller CRT but is very sharp and nice...If you can afford a newer scope, many of the 22xx family are cheaply made (still good, but not the same quality as the older scopes)...the 24xx are VERY nice. I used a 2445 at work about ten years ago; I loved it. I picked up a like-new 2465A on eBay for about $1100 a few months ago, from a reputable dealer with a warranty. It is a truly wonderful scope. If portability isn't a concern, the 7000 series mainframe-based scopes are of very high quality, and the plugins are very easy to find. You can even get things like spectrum analyzer and logic analyer plugins for them. I like the 7704 and 7904...the second digit is the bandwidth (7904 is like 500MHz if memory serves) and the last digit is the number of slots for plugins...the 4-slotters can generally take two horizontal and two vertical plugins. The spectrum and logic analyzer plugins take up two or three slots. The displays are nice and sharp, and the construction is solid...just keep the plugin contacts clean. > This results from me not taking money to a HAMfest - trying to curb my > spending, since i never find anything great - until the scope that I lost > out on. Call me opinionated (hell, who wouldn't!) but mental discipline is the answer here...alwyas bring as much money as you can, and if you don't find a killer deal, let your MIND keep you from spending...not the absence of cash. Of course, developing that level of discipline is difficult. I *always* leave a hamfest with an empty wallet. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Diff at Mac.com Mon Aug 27 13:58:57 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: [rescue] Re: Solbourne VME Boards References: <001801c12f22$c97d2520$0201000a@laboffice> <15242.37312.858402.566294@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <003601c12f2a$5406fac0$0201000a@laboffice> Heurikon sold a lot of 680x0 based SBC VME cards. Upon furhter thought, I would imagine that it is a 680x0 computer and the 4 VME boards which have no external ports are all RAM. Any one worked with these before? Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Cc: ; "Stephen Dowdy" Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 2:30 PM Subject: [rescue] Re: Solbourne VME Boards > On August 27, Zach Malone wrote: > > first board is labled Heurikon on both of its tabs, and has the following > > lables over its connectors: Serial, FPI, FMS 1 2 3 4 (over a set of LEDs), > > reset, and SCSI. It seems to be a Motorola M68000 board of some sort as it > > has two small chips on it which are labled MC68000R10 and MC68450RC10, with > > Not sure what this one is...likely a SCSI host adapter but perhaps > more. The 68450 is a DMA controller. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Aug 27 14:19:34 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FED@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ... Perhaps I should have said that there's a real card in ! every slot. No ! blanking plates only. Ah-ha! Trick questions in this quiz! I should've know that! :-) ! > So, how did we do? ! ! Well, I am impressed people have guessed the hard disk ! controller (it was ! one of the obscure ones). On the other hand, some of the incorrect ! guesses would let out magic smoke... Well, like someone else said, we would have done much better if we had the box in front of us, even without opening it. Also, I would not have hooked anything up without first finding out what ports were what... (Gotta preserve the magic!) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 14:27:36 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Okay, not exactly within timeframe for classic, but... In-Reply-To: <200108251517.LAA10395@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20010827192736.46210.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Megan wrote: > > does anyone know how to tell if an I-Opener is of the kind > which can be hacked? Can one tell from the serial number of > does the machine physically have to be opened? > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer I do not know from the serial number, but if you lift off the trapdoor over the SIMM, the ROM socket is visible near the AC power connector. I did the scraping and all, but later found that it was one that didn't need it - the software was old enough that there was a way to a shell prompt that allowed me to get in and reflash the BIOS. Eventually, I even replaced the BIOS splash screen with one of my own making - it has Tux, "i-Opened it" in the iOpener font, and a "Linux Inside" logo. -ethan (who has one hacked and one-not-yet-hacked iOpener) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Aug 27 14:43:41 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Message-ID: Yes, model railroaders sometimes make molds (usuall using silicon RTV) and castings of small parts. Check your local hobby shop or www.micromark.com (also a good source of small tools for the hobby). -----Original Message----- From: McFadden, Mike [mailto:mmcfadden@cmh.edu] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:28 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE:Just curious about injection molding or casting Plastic/metal replacement computer parts, I'll bet the train hobbyists have some knowledge about recreating metal/plastic parts for computers. I have seen articles about how they have created/machined/cast entire trains from raw materials. Pointer to site for manufacturer of miniature machine tools. http://www.sherline.com/ Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 27 15:06:49 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FED@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > Well, like someone else said, we would have done much better if we > had the box in front of us, even without opening it. Also, I would not have > hooked anything up without first finding out what ports were what... (Gotta > preserve the magic!) > You know, this sounds like a really fun contest to run at the VCF. "Guess The Configuration". :) g. From dlinder at uiuc.edu Mon Aug 27 14:56:54 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: <15242.38023.154700.768226@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Call me opinionated (hell, who wouldn't!) but mental discipline is > the answer here...alwyas bring as much money as you can, and if you > don't find a killer deal, let your MIND keep you from spending...not > the absence of cash. > > Of course, developing that level of discipline is difficult. I > *always* leave a hamfest with an empty wallet. 8-) Yes, the mental discipline I have. Here is the situation: grad student + beginning of the year(books, fees) + mortgage on own place = no scope. :( thanks all for the recommendations... I shall keep my eyes open. The pricetag on this 465 was the real selling point. I shall lement this for many days. So... anyone besides tek? I've always used Tektronix scopes (well, a few heathkits too) and have always been impressed, but I've never used anyone else's. - Dan Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 27 15:08:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? References: Message-ID: <002d01c12f34$0504f3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Too bad! Keep in mind that there's a WORLD of difference between 465's. There's a reall, Really, REALLY big difference in the trigger circuit between the old 465 and 465A, (the latter supposedly exist, but I've never seen one) and the '465B and later. Apparently, the TEK folks decided there was no point in putting the more sensitive, accurate, and costly trigger circuit in 'scopes that competed with HP models that weren't as sensitive and accurate, yet sold about as well, so they switched to a cheaper circuit that was "just about as good as" the HP models that were competitive with the 465B. These were most often used for working on TV/studio equipment, and the increased of their use in that arena motivated some feature changes that apparently warranted the compromise in the triggering seinsitivity and accuracy. The 'B' version still triggers as well as the comparable HP types. Since this was a HamFest, I'd say you may not have lost as much as you may think. (This is my opinion, based on my limited and very disappointing experience with HamFests, which I no longer patronize, so ... consider at your own risk.) The 465 is probably the most popular solid state instrument of its type that TEK ever produced. If you include the wide use of the military version, it's probably also the most widely used throughout the industry. It was not the fastest or most sensitive version in its series, but, at 100 MHz bandwidth, and with 5 mV sensitivity, it was sensitive enough for most analog work and fast enough for even veru fast digital circuitry up through the mid-80's. If someone at a HamFest wanted only $50 for a '465, it's likely there were problems not apparent to the casual onlooker. These would probably be quite fixable, but most folks don't want a "fixer-upper," they want an instrument they can use. I've seen lots of these things sell for over $400 within the last couple or three years. I'm suspicious any time such a bargain appears in an environment where purportedly knowledgable people shop. If there are no cosmetic flaws that justify the reduced price, it would certainly give me pause. That's not to say you can't find a bargain, but I think it's a little much to hope to find a typically >$250 (regardless of condition so long as it's not dead) instrument, probably the most popular of its kind, for under $100, in a marketplace frequented by those who'd covet such a thing. I, BTW, would happily buy (locally) a 455/465/475 external case, so long as the handle and support components are intact. My '465 has had the handle removed since back in the '80's, as my then 15-month-old son, with an inadvertent kick, pushed the instrument out of my car from his car-seat, fracturing one of the plastic parts. I've used it on the bench, and have my '475A on the scope cart. It wasn't crucial at the time, but I now want the thing to work as a portable again ... ... and I'm tired of being pissed at my now 21-year-old son. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Linder" To: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > That's a great field service scope and was the standard at DEC. > > I'd have killed for one at 3 to 4 times the price. > > Alas - I lost out on it. The Fates decided it should not be so. > > For the future, what are some good scopes (sort of in the Tek 465 > quality/feature range)? > > This results from me not taking money to a HAMfest - trying to curb my > spending, since i never find anything great - until the scope that I lost > out on. > > Ah well... > > - Dan > > > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 15:04:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? (Dan Linder) References: <15242.38023.154700.768226@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15242.42967.726023.352901@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 27, Dan Linder wrote: > Yes, the mental discipline I have. Here is the situation: > > grad student + beginning of the year(books, fees) + mortgage on own place > = no scope. :( Ahh, that's why I didn't go to college. I like money far too much. :) > The pricetag on this 465 was the real selling point. I shall lement this > for many days. So... anyone besides tek? I've always used Tektronix > scopes (well, a few heathkits too) and have always been impressed, but > I've never used anyone else's. HP makes good scopes...but Tek is really the one you want, IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Diff at Mac.com Mon Aug 27 15:10:54 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: [rescue] Re: Solbourne VME Boards References: <001801c12f22$c97d2520$0201000a@laboffice><15242.37312.858402.566294@phaduka.neurotica.com><001601c12f29$a40462c0$0201000a@laboffice> <15242.39243.464766.861229@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000f01c12f34$624be370$0201000a@laboffice> I managed to find the silk screened board name on the Keurikon board. Its an HK68/V10. "HK68 68000 128K UNIX ?? 84" Quoted from http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-05/0519.html So it is in fact a SBC. I don't have a clue as to why it is inserted in the Solbourne box, it is of the era of the Solbourne date wise (the Solbourne 5/600 I have has November 1990 stamped over its original label of 1988, the HK/68 was originally built in 1984, and mine is copywrite 1989). You originally found the machine, any clue as to what governmental branch it was originally under? Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "Zach Malone" Cc: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [rescue] Re: Solbourne VME Boards > On August 27, Zach Malone wrote: > > Heurikon sold a lot of 680x0 based SBC VME cards. Upon furhter thought, I > > would imagine that it is a 680x0 computer and the 4 VME boards which have no > > external ports are all RAM. > > Sure, but why would there be a 68K SBC in the VME I/O backplane of a > Solbourne server? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > _______________________________________________ > rescue maillist - rescue@sunhelp.org > http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 15:11:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: [rescue] Re: Solbourne VME Boards In-Reply-To: Re: [rescue] Re: Solbourne VME Boards (Zach Malone) References: <001801c12f22$c97d2520$0201000a@laboffice> <15242.37312.858402.566294@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001601c12f29$a40462c0$0201000a@laboffice> <15242.39243.464766.861229@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000f01c12f34$624be370$0201000a@laboffice> Message-ID: <15242.43365.184826.828779@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 27, Zach Malone wrote: > I managed to find the silk screened board name on the Keurikon board. Its > an HK68/V10. > "HK68 68000 128K UNIX ?? 84" > Quoted from > http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-05/0519.html > So it is in fact a SBC. I don't have a clue as to why it is inserted in the > Solbourne box, it is of the era of the Solbourne date wise (the Solbourne > 5/600 I have has November 1990 stamped over its original label of 1988, the > HK/68 was originally built in 1984, and mine is copywrite 1989). You > originally found the machine, any clue as to what governmental branch it was > originally under? It was in use at DISA. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 14:55:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FED@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Aug 27, 1 03:19:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/86c1487c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 15:03:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:47 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 27, 1 01:06:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/72cfb08d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 15:21:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? In-Reply-To: <002d01c12f34$0504f3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 27, 1 02:08:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3203 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/4c090b13/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 27 15:48:28 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Plessey "PDP-11" Message-ID: <10108272148.ZM21752@unknown.zmail.host> I've acquired a Plessey PDP-11 clone, which has a KDJ11-AC and a bunch of Plessey boards (no other original DEC parts). I was interested in it because it has a full install of RT11 V4.00 and TSX-11, and it has a SCSI (or maybe just SASI) card in it. However, it has no documentation :-( It also has no floppy, just a winchester and an ancient QIC tape drive. Has anyone got any information on the Plessey cards in this machine? Here's the layout: [ DEC KDJ11-AC ] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [ 705919-001 "MIN 1360" 1MB RAM ] [.....empty.....] [ 703755-600E ] [ 703330-100L ] [.....empty.....] [ 703330-100L ] [ 703330-100B ] [.....empty.....] [ 703330-100C ] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [.....empty.....] [ 705200-300E ] [ 703365-100J ] [.....empty.....] 705919-001 is 1MB DRAM. The board is 1/4 populated, with 36 DRAMs. 703755-600 is a tape controller. It's connected by a 50-way ribbon cable to an Archive Corporation Cartridge Tape Drive, Model 9020L-2. QIC02? QIC36? 703330-100 is a DLV11-J lookalike. Links and switch settings unknown! I could probably work out the address and vector switch settings without too much trouble, since I have four of them set for consecutive addresses, but I don't know about the rest. 705200-300 is a SCSI (SASI?) disk controller. It appears to emulate an RLV21 with 4 x RL02, and has a Wren-2 43MB drive on it. It has a couple of PROMs, one labeled "UK5" and the other "335-100A". 703365-100 has a serial line for the console terminal, connections to the front panel switches, terminators, a bootstrap (?) made up of 4 x TBP28L22 PROMs, three 8-pole DIL switches and several wire-wrap posts. Any info/docs welcome, as would be formatting software (or instructions, if it's built in) for the disk controller... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Aug 27 14:37:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections In-Reply-To: Pete Rickard "Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections" (Aug 27, 10:36) References: <200108271436.JAA60719@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <10108272037.ZM21725@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 27, 10:36, Pete Rickard wrote: > > "Iggy Drougge" wrote: > > The device in the kitchen for baking small spray-painted articles > > can be used for pizza and muffins. [Pete Turnbull] > I read in Electronic Musician, or some similar mag, of a way to get a > professional enamel finish on metal 19" rack plates: the author said > to place the spray-painted piece into an oven set at 200 deg F, turning > off the heat after closing the door. Do you have any experiences on > getting a smooth, durable finish, etc. ? As an aside, real "stove enamel" is a ceramic, fired onto the surface of steel. "Enamel paint" gets its name because it was supposed to be nearly as durable (though it isn't, of course). Professional sprayers do "stove" or "oven" the paint to improve the hardness; on cars, they use a temperature of about 70deg C (which is about 160deg F) -- much higher can damage the electronics -- but for small parts I use a bit more, around 80deg C. It does make the finish tougher, but it won't improve poor visual finish significantly. It just hastens the drying process, which otherwise would take several days to be complete. Of course, all this only applies to cellulose paint. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 15:56:05 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010827205605.60340.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Some people change the entire shaft. Personnally, I just replace the > roller... Considering the roller is <$10 and the shaft isn't, I'm with you. > Make sure you note the relative alignment of the rollers and the clutch. > In theory it only fits one way, in practice you can get it 180 degrees > out. I found that out the hard way. Had to re-disassemble my LJIIID, top and bottom to fix it. :-( It's a happy camper now, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 16:16:58 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections In-Reply-To: Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections (Pete Rickard) References: <200108271436.JAA60719@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <15242.47306.435183.709500@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 27, Pete Rickard wrote: > I read in Electronic Musician, or some similar mag, of a way to get a > professional enamel finish on metal 19" rack plates: the author said > to place the spray-painted piece into an oven set at 200 deg F, turning > off the heat after closing the door. Do you have any experiences on > getting a smooth, durable finish, etc. ? I have done this on those nice cast-aluminum Bud chassis. It works well. Be careful not to over-heat them, though, and check them frequently. The 50's style "crinkle finish" can be achieved by evenly preheating the metal in an oven to a slightly higher temperature (250-300 or so) and then applying the paint. Ham operators have been using these techniques for homebrew equipment for many years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 16:24:52 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Paint Curing WAS:Re:Room for Collections In-Reply-To: <10108272037.ZM21725@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The device in the kitchen for baking small spray-painted articles > > > can be used for pizza and muffins. With some risk of contamination > Professional sprayers do "stove" or "oven" the paint to improve the > hardness; on cars, they use a temperature of about 70deg C (which is about > 160deg F) -- much higher can damage the electronics -- but for small parts At risk of being dipped in iron, or even worse being moderated, for bringing up CARBURETORS, . . . 33 year old computer, . . . A friend of mine was "expert witness" in a lawsuit against an automobile paint shop that refused to believe that they could be responsible for a 1968 VW squareback ceasing to work - the paint baking killed the fool injection computer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Aug 27 16:31:27 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FEE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! The answers given for some of those were totally amazing, BTW... Do you remember any of the answers? I'm curious... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From foo at siconic.com Mon Aug 27 15:38:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Well, like someone else said, we would have done much better if we > > had the box in front of us, even without opening it. Also, I would not have > > hooked anything up without first finding out what ports were what... (Gotta > > preserve the magic!) > > You know, this sounds like a really fun contest to run at the VCF. "Guess > The Configuration". :) Sorta like "how many jelly beans are in this jar", eh? :) I think a better contest would be the Junkyard War thing since the exhibit and marketplace is being held at the ACCRC. They have a 40,000 square foot warehouse with piles and piles and piles of old hardware laying about in various states. Too bad there's no time to organize it. Next year... Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From kees.stravers at iae.nl Mon Aug 27 17:04:36 2001 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: vintage computers (Forward From kees.stravers@iae.nl) Message-ID: <20010827220436.3C36B20F1F@mail.iae.nl> Please reply to Termtech@digitalputty.com, not to me. Let's make sure these machines won't go to waste! On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:05:42, Termtech@digitalputty.com said: >Dear Sir > >My company has been repairing and maintaining computer systems since >1977. > >I now find myself with approx. 1000 square feet of very vintage >equipment, repair parts, test equipment and service manuals. > >We saved this equipment with the hope of starting a computer museum at >some time in the future. > >I now find myself in a position where this is no longer possible and I >am looking to find a buyer for this collection who can put it to good >use. > >I am working on a complete list of material and would like to sell the >entire warehouse with fixtures. > >The equipment and manuals cover the spectrum from early DEC pdp 8, 11 >and VAX mini's thru CPM 8bit systems including vector graphics and >Eagle systems and more current IBM and clones. > >Please Let me know if you or anyone you know would be interested. > >Thank You > >Ken Slusser >U.S.A. >termtech@digitalputty.com >805.489.2161 -- kees.stravers@iae.nl http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia http://www.vaxarchive.org From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 27 17:20:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? References: Message-ID: <000d01c12f46$6e21a740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You're right on the money, Tony. If I find something at much lower than market price, I assume it needs help of some sort. The Laser printers I bought over the past month were bought because they had enough toner in the cartridges to warrant the price. The rest is gravy. If I want a fixer-upper, a HamFest is a perfect place. If I want a "hobby 'scope" it's not likely I want to fix it. I want to use it. If I want a second one, I may feel differently, but for the first one, especially for someone who has no other test gear, I'd say a $50 '465 might not be the good deal it would be for someone already set up to repair test gear. First of all, one has to know how the stuff works, and, secondly, one has to be of a mind to fix the thing. I've had my 'scope apart at times, but not because I LIKE fixing problems in my tools. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Tek 465 as a hobby scope? > > Since this was a HamFest, I'd say you may not have lost as much as you may > > think. (This is my opinion, based on my limited and very disappointing > > experience with HamFests, which I no longer patronize, so ... consider at your > > This is the exact opposite of my experience at radio rallies (which is > what we call hamfests over here). I have never been disapointed with > anything I've bought at a radio rally. > > I have a couple of rules I follow at such events : > > Never buy anything if it might be worth a lot less than you paid for > it. For example, I never buy chips at hamfests no matter how attractive > the price looks because if they are defective I know I can't repair them > so I've lost my money. But I would buy an old HP instrument for \pounds > 10.00 (even though it's almost certainly faulty at that price) because I > can see at least \pounds 10.00 worth of knobs, case parts, connectors, > etc. The insides are going to be worth something as well. And most likely > the repair is going to be simple (this is how I ended up with an old, but > good, HP counter with plug-ins covering DC to 3GHz for very little money [1]) > > Even with the above rule, never buy anything unless you can afford to > lose the money. It's unlikely you will, but... > > [1] All it needed was new smoothing capacitors in the PSU... > > [...] > > > If someone at a HamFest wanted only $50 for a '465, it's likely there were > > problems not apparent to the casual onlooker. These would probably be quite > > fixable, but most folks don't want a "fixer-upper," they want an instrument > > I regard all things I buy at rallies as 'fixer-uppers'. I expect it. I've > never much money for a single item at a rally, so I don't expect them to > work (often though I am pleasantly suprised by what I get -- faults are > often quite simple). > > To be honest, I'd rather have a 'fixer-upper' that was once a first-class > instrument (like a Tek 'scope) than a more recent hobbyist-grade unit > bought new and working. I'll spend a few days/weeks/months fixing it up > (time spent on hobbies is free, after all ;-)) and in the end I'll have > something that I could never have afforded any other way. And it'll be > pleasant to use, unlike some more recent stuff. > > In general, the more obscure an item, the more likely it is to be working > if sold cheaply at a rally. > > A good 'scope will not be priced that cheaply in general because just > about everyone at a rally knows what a 'scope is, and wants one. And they > know the good makes (like Tek and HP). So a cheap Tek 'scope is likely to > need work > > But something like an in-circuit emulator, or a programmer for some odd > chip family, or an obscure classic computer could well be very cheap, > even when working. Because almost nobody wants this sort of stuff (unless > they're into old computers, I guess :-)) I've picked up a Z80 ICE unit, a > logic analyser designed to connect to common 8 bit processors (6800, Z80, > 6502 and 6809 IIRC), a PIC 17C4x programmer board (complete with a couple > of chips and all the manuals), and a Xerox D-machine for \pounds 10 or > less each. All apart from the D-machine were in perfect working order, > the last was missing the keyboard, but at that price... > > -tony > > From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Aug 27 17:40:56 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D57@BUSH02> 1) An SAA5243 (for the UK/Europe -- I think the 60Hz-vertical version is the SAA5245) This is actually a teletext display IC for televisions, and is controlled via an I2C bus (2 wires). The nice feature is that the If you can get the SAA5246 you can do either PAL or NTSC video rates (software selectable). 3) Some way of generating a 6MHz clock. A 74LS04 + a crystal, for example. The 5246 has an onboard clock generator so you only need a 27MHz xtal. You get a 40*25 text display (upper and lower case) with teletext-style block graphics and serial colour attributes. Not bad for 3 chips and 2 port lines. You can, with the 5243 or 5246, have either 8 pages of 25x40 or four pages of 27x40. Another advantage is that the 5246 has the video processor (SAA5231) integrated so you can genlock your display. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 17:56:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D57@BUSH02> from "Davison, Lee" at Aug 27, 1 11:40:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1105 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010827/3108aa77/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 27 10:08:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <812.639T500T9683805optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: > I've seen brand new systems come from Dell with little >stickers in place labeling all of the ports. Not just the little >icons, but it all spelled out. Frankly, I'm suprised a lot of people >even find the power button. I can't recall having seen many systems without labels for their ports. And why shouldn't there be any? Proper labeling is a virtue, and I can only ewish that more computer manufacturers would bother pointing out what the hell they've produced. After all, if you've spent the last few months doing a PCB layout, it can't be that much of a chore to actually print its name or purpose somewhere, too? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 27 10:18:37 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2362.639T1850T9785211optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >> > What's the deal? >> >> Well..... it *does* come in usful when identifying which socket is >> keyboard, and which is mouse (bearing in mind their similarity - i.e. they >> look identical). >... and for those without PC experience. We had a newbie in one of the >college labs who was trying to install a second printer on some of the >OLD (8088, 80286) machines. But the "other" DB25 connector on the back of >the machines was MALE, ... So she connected them with gender changers. >[for non-PC people: IBM used FEMALE DB25 for parallel printer, and MALE >DB25 for serial] IBM were one of those bastards who introduced the non-DB25 serial ports. Which is a real bother since there is no real D9 serial standard pinout. IBM use one, Apple used one, HP another and Luxor a fourth. This reminds me of a post a month or two ago on the PS/2 group, where a nebiw was stating that there were no serial ports on the back of his model 95, only a parallel port and an inverted parallel port. Well, at least that would be somewhat true WRT the Amiga 1000, which had switched genders on its parallel and serial ports. >Back a long time ago, one of our instructors damaged the input circuitry >of of several giant classroom CGA compatible monitors by plugging them >into the Microsoft Bus [green-eyed] Mouse ports How would you plug a CGA monitor (D9) into a bus mouse port (mini-DIN)? >> The colour coding will be essential when the PC world finally wakes up and >> uses fibre optics for everything... >Is the color coding standardized? Or will we have incorrect connections >made by people who follow the color code instead of other cues? I can just imagine how people with no clue (or analphabets, more likely) would plug modems into Amiga joystick ports and VGA monitors into the Atari STE advanced joystick ports, thinking "cor, dual-head!". =/ But seriously, most connectors have been used more than once in the history of computing, so proper labeling is no bad idea. Some D-sub connectors you wouldn't want to plug ito the wrong connector would be the Dragon 32 PSU (D9), Luxor monitors with power and signal on the same D15, and similar Ericsson monitors with a DB25. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 27 10:28:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting In-Reply-To: <000a01c12ddf$3db4caa0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <1115.639T900T9884393optimus@canit.se> Jay West skrev: I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to an HTML person... >For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that get >broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the realm of >the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? For example - a switch on a DEC >PC04 where you have 3 switches but are missing one. Can it easily be done to >make a casting of the part in some kind of clay, then work with dyes to get >the color right and pour in a plastic or resin and thus create another >identical switch? I haven't tried this, but there are certain plastic putties which are baked in an oven, quite popular amongst model enthusiasts. With the proper care in molding, perhaps this could be a replacement? It would be someting like Cernit, but I can't recall other brands. Model shops should be a good source in this kind of business. More professional modelers should know it all when it comes to casting and more advanced techniques as well. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Keine Grenze verlockt mehr zum Schmuggeln als die Altersgrenze. --- Robert Musil From jss at subatomix.com Mon Aug 27 18:20:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: vintage computers (Forward From kees.stravers@iae.nl) In-Reply-To: <20010827220436.3C36B20F1F@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <20010827181832.T371-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > I now find myself with approx. 1000 square feet of very vintage > equipment, repair parts, test equipment and service manuals. > > I am working on a complete list of material and would like to sell the > entire warehouse with fixtures. Holy cow! I want to know who buys this! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 18:41:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Fwd: 5 1/4 Diskettes Message-ID: Here's a note posted to another email list that I thought some of you might be interested in: Jeff >Status: U >Sender: fufu-l@telia.com >Reply-To: fufu-l@telia.com >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:17:09 -0400 >From: "Bill Fisher" >To: Multiple recipients of fufu-l >Subject: 5 1/4 Diskettes > >I seemed to recall someone needing a supply of 5 1/4" diskettes. Radio Shack >(corporate) has instructed all of their stores that they can price their >existing supplies of 5 1/4" HD (1.2MB) floppies (10 pack with plastic >storage case) at $1.97. If you need this very rare item, here's a great way >to get some at a decent price. >I bought 6 packs incase the person who wanted them cant get any. I will ship >them to whoever needs them. Please be kind enough to advise. > >Bill Fisher in Pittsburgh wefisher1@home.com >-- >FLEX & UniFLEX Users' mailing List >http://www.flexusergroup.com/ >http://w1.503.telia.com/~u50302970/ > > -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 27 19:16:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Fwd: 5 1/4 Diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Here's a note posted to another email list that I thought > some of you might be interested in: > > Jeff > >I seemed to recall someone needing a supply of 5 1/4" diskettes. Radio Shack > >(corporate) has instructed all of their stores that they can price their > >existing supplies of 5 1/4" HD (1.2MB) floppies (10 pack with plastic > >storage case) at $1.97. If you need this very rare item, here's a great way > >to get some at a decent price. > >I bought 6 packs incase the person who wanted them cant get any. I will ship > >them to whoever needs them. Please be kind enough to advise. > > > >Bill Fisher in Pittsburgh wefisher1@home.com I was not aware that 5.25" HD floppies were that difficult to find, but if anyone needs some I have nearly a thousand generic disks still in cellophane wrappers of fifty, for $5 plus shipping. - don From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 19:21:30 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <2362.639T1850T9785211optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >Back a long time ago, one of our instructors damaged the input circuitry > >of of several giant classroom CGA compatible monitors by plugging them > >into the Microsoft Bus [green-eyed] Mouse ports On 27 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > How would you plug a CGA monitor (D9) into a bus mouse port (mini-DIN)? Because the GREEN-EYED Microsoft Bus Mouse was NOT a mini-DIN! Later on, all sorts of atrocities were committed. But the original GREEN-EYED Microsoft Bus Mouse had a male DE9 that plugged into a female DE9 connector on the original Microsoft Bus Mouse card. The GREEN-EYED Microsoft SERIAL mouse was available with a DB25. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Aug 27 19:28:30 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: 3 chip video output (OT, I guess) Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D59@BUSH02> > If you can get the SAA5246 you can do either PAL or NTSC video > rates (software selectable). SOunds interesting. The SAA5243 is much easier to find in the UK, I think. It is, I've had five 5243s and no 5246s from scrap TV's recently. How compatible are the 5243 and 5246 in software (as in register bit allocations, etc). Wildly different? A couple of extra bits in the registers to set PAL/NTSC and free run (VCO) and a bit for VCR which was a pin on the 5231. Also a new register with status bits for sync type (525/625), data quality and signal quality. Software for the 5243 should run on the 5246 if you set all the unused bits as per the data sheet. It does, it also has the video output drivers on board so needs far fewer external components. Adding the SAA5231 to an SAA5243-based display is overkill unless you need the genlock capability or you also want to decode teletext data. A As all my teletext chips come from scrap TVs I don't bother removing the 5231, only the Safari control processor if it's fitted. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 19:48:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <2362.639T1850T9785211optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 27, 1 04:18:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/fea1f3fa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 19:55:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Plessey "PDP-11" In-Reply-To: <10108272148.ZM21752@unknown.zmail.host> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 27, 1 08:48:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/f15aad95/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 19:56:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FEE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Aug 27, 1 05:31:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/94e291a1/attachment.ksh From curt at atari-history.com Mon Aug 27 20:37:38 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Corvus OmniNet Protocol??? References: Message-ID: <002c01c12f62$057308d0$c2609040@syzygy2> This question may best be answered by Al Kossow since I see he is an avid Corvus collector, but if anyone can help: I'm looking for technical data on how the Corvus OmniNet worked, the protocol, technical data, developers manuals, etc... I have several OmniNet devices and I would like to see about adapting them to other systems that did not have the Corvus Transporter Cards. Also, this is for anyone interested, I'd rather offer this to the group instead of Ebay: I have a spare Corvus "The Bank" Mass Storage Tape System. If anyone is interested in it, please let me know, I'd prefer a trade for Atari or other Corvus equipment. Curt From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 21:21:41 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > IBM were one of those bastards who introduced the non-DB25 serial ports. Which > > is a real bother since there is no real D9 serial standard pinout. IBM use > > one, Apple used one, HP another and Luxor a fourth. > And DEC had yet another one.... > It annoys me when people talk about a 'standard 9 pin serial port' > because there really is no such thing... "The great thing about standards is that everyone can have a unique one of their own." -- George Morrow Does ANYONE here have a copy of "Quotations of Chairman Morrow"? > > >Back a long time ago, one of our instructors damaged the input circuitry > > >of of several giant classroom CGA compatible monitors by plugging them > > >into the Microsoft Bus [green-eyed] Mouse ports > > How would you plug a CGA monitor (D9) into a bus mouse port (mini-DIN)? > IIRC the early bus mice used a DE9 connector (female on the card). But I > am still wondering how the TTL level inputs and a +5V line on a bus mouse > port would damage TTL level inputs on a CGA monitor. They are large color monitors. We still use some of them for VCR display. The [consistent] symptom was that after the damage, when switched over to their composite/NTSC mode, they would have unstable vertical hold. I can get you the model number tomorrow, and on Thursday I can ask the fellow who repaired them whether he remembers the details. He told me that the damage was identical on all of them. The PROBLEM was an instructor who plugged the connector into one port after another as a method for figuring out which port was the right one. At that time, our classroom machines (5150) had CGA and Microsoft Bus Mouse. > The most amusing (after the event) version of that was the idiot who > connected the BNC on the back of a VT220 to a thinwire ethernet network. > No, it didn't do any lasting damage, but needless to say the network went > down... We had somebody connect a monitor that had BNC to a network card in a PC. (For a long time, our administrators considered lab staff to be a warmbody job) > Ageed. I don't know what this objection is to labelling things. He didn't object to labelling, so much as wrong ("3.5" Hard disk A:), or silly labels ("5.25" floppy drive"). I have seen IEC cords that have labels attached saying "power cord", "this end to computer", and "power cord for ..." on a generic IEC cord. I had an office worker briefly who labelled some file folders. I drew the line when she wrote on one: "This folder contains information about printers from Epson" instead of "Epson printers". OTOH, I think that labelling the drive letter is reasonable, and I would appreciate labels differentiating 720K v 1.4M, and 360K v 1.2M. Bounced Reality Check quiz: what was backward about IBM's attempt to label 360K v 1.2M? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From optimus at canit.se Mon Aug 27 20:21:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1180.640T1000T1414753optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> (although I'd say I didn't); having got into it in the early '80s (about >> '81 I think). Bear in mind I was at primary school at the time, so I have a >> good excuse.... :) >I think what happened to me was that in about 1986 I managed to buy an >old P850 minicomputer for \pounds 25.00 (it was sold as scrap). The front >panel (toggle switches and filament lamps) is beautiful, so I deceided to >have a go at repairing it. I learnt about how processors worked from that >machine (even though it's very unconventional!), and decided to grab any >other machines that I could and learn about those too. Unconventional in what way? Is it novel? >> >I think this is lack of experience again. Most classic HP machines have >> >GPIB >> >> Probably - again, I joined in in the early '80s, so anything that predates >> that I'm unlikely to have used, or even seen... >I'm pretty sure some HP 9000-series Unix boxes have HPIB disks, BTW... The 9000/200 series certainly did. In fact, HPIB is the only built-in interface I can recall there being in our 228. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Aug 27 21:29:50 2001 From: mtwilda at unity.ncsu.edu (Matt Wilda) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: Message-ID: <3B8B021D.522ACF5E@unity.ncsu.edu> > > The most amusing (after the event) version of that was the idiot who > connected the BNC on the back of a VT220 to a thinwire ethernet network. > No, it didn't do any lasting damage, but needless to say the network went > down... > Last year the University of North Carolina began giving IBM Thinkpads to all of its students. Over half of them had to be sent back for repairs after students confused the ethernet port with the modem and attempted to connect them to a phone line. From jspp at bol.com.br Mon Aug 27 21:50:22 2001 From: jspp at bol.com.br (Simao) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: HP-85B service manual Message-ID: <000001c12f6c$2e768fe0$d3f1c3c8@k6> Does anyone knows were I find a service manual to Hewellet Packard 85-B microcomputers ? Thank's. From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 27 22:20:54 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Decoding Nazi Secrets References: <1180.640T1000T1414753optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <000d01c12f70$72fb50c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> That's the Nova this week, for people who don't necessarily tune in otherwise. John A. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Aug 27 22:35:13 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? Message-ID: <3B8B1171.4080809@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hello, I know some of you are former VAX field service technicians or have other deep working knowledge of this: what exactly (!) does it take to upgrade a VAX 11/780 to a VAX 11/785 (or 11/780-5 as it was called.) I believe this includes changing the SBI backplane. But what else does it include? Is the console computer any different? Power supply? As you probably all know, I have the 11/785 board set on hand but no cabinet. Now I have the chance of transporting one or two 11/780 accross the country. Those are in real good shape as I gather (were stored inside!) So I figure I rather have a nice 11/780 than a rusty incomplete 11/785 that lacks a console computer. And with some chance I can upgrade one to an 11/780-5. So, what does it take? thanks for your advice, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 22:45:42 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... In-Reply-To: Re: Amusing contest idea... (Tony Duell) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FEE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15243.5094.84529.430539@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 28, Tony Duell wrote: > Not that many. I think about the best was the nickel delay line memory > (which has a coil of nickel wire with transducers on the ends. Some > 'genius' thought it was some kind of clockwork UPS.... I have one of those. It is *really* neat. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Aug 27 22:49:53 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8B021D.522ACF5E@unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: Just like when we had CGA and MDA monitors with DB9 female and token ring was big and also had DB9 female, and many TR cards hadn't gotten the grren dots yet (like it mattered when they did as many people though the green dot stood for the green monitor). -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Matt Wilda -> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:30 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? -> -> -> > -> > The most amusing (after the event) version of that was the idiot who -> > connected the BNC on the back of a VT220 to a thinwire -> ethernet network. -> > No, it didn't do any lasting damage, but needless to say the -> network went -> > down... -> > -> -> Last year the University of North Carolina began giving IBM -> Thinkpads to all of its -> students. Over half of them had to be sent back for repairs -> after students confused -> the ethernet port with the modem and attempted to connect them -> to a phone line. -> -> From technos at nerdland.org Mon Aug 27 23:00:35 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Amusing contest idea... Message-ID: <01C12F54.76F4AF30.technos@nerdland.org> > That sounds like fun.... I would suggest sticking to a PC chassis and > > having a mix of standard (known video adapters, for example) and > obscure > (really obscure) cards. > Ummm.. No.. I have some cards lying around here so unusual I couldn't identify them even with the case open, let alone by physical inspection of the back panel, and a few I couldn't identify even with the card in my hand.. For example, what would you expect a double width card in the ISA portion of the board sporting a pair of DB9 to be a video card, especially after seeing onboard VGA? Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 27 22:58:47 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:48 2005 Subject: Decoding Nazi Secrets In-Reply-To: from "John Allain" at Aug 27, 2001 11:20:54 PM Message-ID: <200108280358.f7S3wlV09372@shell1.aracnet.com> > That's the Nova this week, for people who > don't necessarily tune in otherwise. > > John A. Huh? Zane From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 27 23:17:25 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:52 2005 Subject: Decoding Nazi Secrets Message-ID: <20010828042055.SWCQ4656.imf14bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> The TV show, man. ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Decoding Nazi Secrets > Date: Monday, August 27, 2001 11:58 PM > > > That's the Nova this week, for people who > > don't necessarily tune in otherwise. > > > > John A. > > Huh? > > Zane From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Aug 27 23:37:12 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: Decoding Nazi Secrets References: <200108280358.f7S3wlV09372@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <019b01c12f7b$1bbc6960$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 1:28 PM Subject: Re: Decoding Nazi Secrets > > That's the Nova this week, for people who > > don't necessarily tune in otherwise. > > > > John A. > > Huh? Er, yeah. Interpolating a little (okay a lot) I take it this is a tv show and it will be explaining how the Brits (mostly) cracked the Enigma and/or Geheimschreiber (Fish) codes? If so, should be some nice classic hardware on show, wonder if it will show the recently built replica of the Colossus? I also recall Bletchley were working on a replica of a Bombe, having discovered the long lost blueprints at the factory where they were made. Is it off topic if the hardware is <10 years old, but a reproduction of a 60 year old system? ;^) Cheers Geoff From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 28 00:47:23 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: Pictures from VCF East 1.0 Message-ID: Here is a photo gallery of the VCF East 1.0 exhibit: http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=VCFEAST10&event=VCF%20East%201.0 Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 28 00:47:49 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: Message-ID: <3B8B3085.90D825E7@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Unless it's the floopy drives on this PC/XT. It has _6_. 2 * 5.25" (A:, > B:), 2 * 3.5" (F:, G:) and 2 * 8" (H:, I:, but not directly available > from MS-DOS, only from specially-written programs like PERQdisk). THe > hard drive partitions are C:, D;, E: (just to confuse you more...) I wondered how many drives you had :-) > > > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 > > > > don't know > > That's actually a standard multi-function I/O card. The DA15 is a > joystick port, the DB25 is the second printer port. The card also > contains 2 serial ports (COM3: and COM4: and a floppy controller. The > latter I hacked to be at the secondary address and to work with HD (and > 8") drives. Ok, I was thinking it was the high density 15 pin connector that VGA normally uses. I would have recognized it as a Game/midi connector in person. > > > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male DC37, (b,c) ending > > > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower ribbon cables than > > > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 > > > > No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) > > Not really, but very unusual : > > (a) (male DC37) is the control cable for ST506 hard drives (the card in > slot 2 is an ST506 controller) > > (b,c) (female DB25) are the data cables for those hard drives. I have an > external box containing the hard drives and the 3.5" floppies -- the > machine is _packed_ inside. These aren't normally external drives are they? > > (d,e) (male DB25) are the COM3: and COM4: serial ports from the card in > slot 1 > > (f) (female DC37) is the floppy cable from the card in slot 1. It goes to > an adapter box that they has a 50 way ribbon going to the 2 8" drives > > > > > > > > > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 > > > > The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, M$ bus mouse > > perhaps? > > The button is a reset function for the card in slot 3(not a complete > machine reset). The miniDIN is an I2C port. This one is a little unfair > in that it's home-made from the Elektor design. > > > > > > > > > Slot 4 : RCA phono socket, female DE9 > > > > That's your video card I think. > > One of them !. This is normal IBM CGA card. I was thinking either CGA or EGA. Mine was EGA, on a 286. > > > Slot 5 : Female DE9, female DB25 > > > > serial ports > > I'm glad you're not setting this thing up, or I'd have some TTL to > replace!. The DE9 is an MDA monitor port, the DB25 is the first printer > port. It's a normal IBM mono/parallel card. See, I get confused with that second letter. What makes it a DE9, and not a DB9? > > > Slot 6 : Female DC37 > > > > again, I 'm not sure what a DC connector is.... is it a floppy > > controller? I can't recall the pin count. > > Yes. Normal IBM floppy controller. The external 3.5" drives plug in here. > > > > > > Slot 7 : Male DB25 > > > > parallel port? > > No, a serial port (it's male). COM1: actually. I guess I get the genders mixed up, because so many computer connectors are compound connectors. You've got pins sliding in, surrounded by a shell, that's getting something slid into it, etc. I guess your calling it by the pins, and I'm calling it by the shell. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From pechter at bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com Tue Aug 28 07:19:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? In-Reply-To: <3B8B1171.4080809@aurora.regenstrief.org> from Gunther Schadow at "Aug 27, 2001 10:35:13 pm" Message-ID: <200108281219.f7SCJqP10625@bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com> > Hello, > > I know some of you are former VAX field service technicians or > have other deep working knowledge of this: what exactly (!) > does it take to upgrade a VAX 11/780 to a VAX 11/785 (or > 11/780-5 as it was called.) I believe this includes changing > the SBI backplane. But what else does it include? Is the > console computer any different? Power supply? > thanks for your advice, > -Gunther > The CPU backplane gets swapped along with the board set. I believe the console 11/03 may get more memory as well (my memory is a bit hazy on that). IIRC it goes to 28kw from 16kw. I think power is still the same. The console software load is different The 11/785 has more wcs so you need 11/785 console software with different microcode -- so without the RX01 disks you'll never boot the machine. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Aug 28 07:35:55 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010825013114.00a903e0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:31:14 +0100 Adrian Vickers wrote: > >for the jackscrews on the cable connector to screw into. The quickest way > >for me to get those is to make them from scratch. More normal people, I > >guess, ask a friendly local model engineer... > > Should I add a lathe to my list of requirements? :) I do *have* a lathe in my garage, but I havn't yet used it for a classic computer repair... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Aug 28 07:47:26 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: What's a LISA worth In-Reply-To: <20010827181832.T371-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20010827220436.3C36B20F1F@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010828084534.00afde30@pop3.norton.antivirus> I have the opportunity to acquire a working Lisa computer. Can anyone give me some idea what it's worth? Thanx From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 07:54:15 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: Opening a Z-19: Thanks! Message-ID: Hello all, Thanks to those who answered my inquiry on opening a Z-19. You were spot on, and the case opened quite easily! There were no physical signs of damage, so I replaced the cut-off power cord, and fired it up. Unfortunately, the same problem as my Osborne I -- no CRT glow from the neck, and nothing on the screen. Twiddling the brightness did nothing. Oh well, one more thing to fix. I did pull it from a dumpster, so what can I expect, right? :-) I'm not going to ask for docs or information at this time, as I have two other major projects to dive into (the Northstar and the Osborne). When those are done, I will revisit the Z-19. Thanks again to all who helped me "crack the case" :-) hahahahhaha Rich B. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 08:16:53 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Message-ID: Hello all, Thanks to all those who replied to my message regarding S-100 power supplies, and thanks especially to Dick Erlacher, who offered to sell me some cheap. I got a private email reply from someone offering the same thing, and I took him up on it first. So to Dick, I'll pass but thanks anyway... The main problem in all of this was not ever the design. As Allison pointed out, an unregulated supply is dead simple to design. Even looking at some commercially designed/built S-100 supplies, you can see it's not rocket science. The problem nowadays is finding one part -- the transformer. Most all computers are +5V, +/-12V now, and of course transformer manufacturers gear towards those. Even some of the surplus places I've gone to on the web only have "common" voltages (+5V, +/- 12V, +24V, etc). That's why I wanted to see if there was an SMPS that would do the trick. After looking at SMPS prices, however, I've decided no to go that route. I'm sure they're bullet-proof, and would function admirably, but I'm not going to plunk down $200+ for one :-) (remember, we're talking high current here, not just the little 1A switcher). Anyway, thanks to all ... Rich B. From glindsey at ssinc.com Tue Aug 28 08:35:30 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: What's a LISA worth References: <20010827220436.3C36B20F1F@mail.iae.nl> <4.3.2.7.2.20010828084534.00afde30@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <009801c12fc6$605fb680$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "Gene Ehrich" wrote: > > I have the opportunity to acquire a working Lisa computer. > > Can anyone give me some idea what it's worth? > > Thanx > Well, that depends on the audience. Obviously, to the average person, not much. But I'm assuming you're talking in the collectors' sense -- in that case, the presence and/or condition of original accessories, manuals, and software will have an impact, as well as the condition of the Lisa itself. And though I'm not a big collector (yet), I can tell you that a NON-working Lisa just recently sold on eBay for over $150. I don't know if that's indicative of the typical transaction, but that's what I saw. YMMV. GSL, who realizes that was probably no help whatsoever... From Gary.Messick at itt.com Tue Aug 28 08:47:58 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD704468889@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:48 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? > > > The most amusing (after the event) version of that was the idiot who > connected the BNC on the back of a VT220 to a thinwire > ethernet network. > No, it didn't do any lasting damage, but needless to say the > network went > down... > > [for the uninitiated, the BNC socket on a VT220 is a composite video > output...] > We had a secretary do that once on an early Novel network, didn't bring it down, just made it VERY SLOW. (The only thing we could figure was that it allowed data during the re-trace(?). Gary From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Aug 28 08:53:51 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:58 2005 Subject: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office people... References: <3B89E720.957C9FF4@internet1.net> <3.0.1.32.20010827125555.009bc100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3B8BA26E.12E58603@idirect.com> >Roger Merchberger wrote: > It's not hard at all -- Where I used to work our secretary kept calling > 3.5" floppies "hard disks" and wouldn't change her language at my copious > requests & sincere attempts at re-education... Jerome Fine replies: That is OK! My wife still refers to the terminals laying around (VT100 and VT220) as computers! I really don't think she understands the difference. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 28 09:23:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting References: <1115.639T900T9884393optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002401c12fcd$01885e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Very small parts are difficult because it's hard to work with them under any circumstances. However, I've found that broken front-panel switches can be repaired either by gluing the broken part with "super-glue" or by disassembling a complete switch and replicating the broken part. As for matching the color, I've found that making replacements for ALL the switches makes for a nice matching set, though not original. That, of course, is a matter of aesthetics. Of course, front-panel switches generally aren't what one would call "small" parts. If you use the Silastic Moldmaking kits that are available, one problem that comes up is augmenting the desired part in such a way that the resin can be applied into the mold without injection hardware. A syringe will help some, but the resin is generally quite thick, and requires a big one. I used a syringe I got from my veterinarian to "squirt" horse-wormer into my dogs' mouths when I had to worm the bunch of them, which was needed a couple of times a year. I've had one of those for over 20 years and they allow themselves to be reused. The difficulty with really small parts, or with parts that have thin barbs, latches, etc, is that they're quite fragile and removing them from the mold can be difficult to do without breaking them. Likewise, if you use plaster and pot-metal (lost wax method) or anything of that sort. A two-part mold of any sort brings with it the likelihood of a seam, that has to be removed with a razor blade or XACTO knife, and that's seldom perfect. The seam can interfere with proper operation, and certainly will present a cosmetic effect that you may not like. Building your own spare parts is not easy. For that reason, if you do it, particularly if you turn out a really successful replica, let the rest of us know about it, since that means that you have the tooling worked out and can save us the effort of replicating your hard work. If you've done that, you deserve appropriate compensation, well above the "normal" price of a part, for making the otherwise impossible-to-replace part available once more. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Jay West" Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Just curious about injection molding or casting > Jay West skrev: > > I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to an HTML person... > > >For small plastic parts, say - switches and actuators and the like - that get > >broken or are missing from systems or peripherals. Is it within the realm of > >the home hobbiest to forge duplicate parts? For example - a switch on a DEC > >PC04 where you have 3 switches but are missing one. Can it easily be done to > >make a casting of the part in some kind of clay, then work with dyes to get > >the color right and pour in a plastic or resin and thus create another > >identical switch? > > I haven't tried this, but there are certain plastic putties which are baked in > an oven, quite popular amongst model enthusiasts. With the proper care in > molding, perhaps this could be a replacement? It would be someting like > Cernit, but I can't recall other brands. Model shops should be a good source > in this kind of business. More professional modelers should know it all when > it comes to casting and more advanced techniques as well. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Keine Grenze verlockt mehr zum Schmuggeln als die Altersgrenze. > --- Robert Musil > > From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 09:31:37 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Apple II Stuff for Sale Message-ID: Hello all, I finally went through all of the Apple II stuff from that school (I still have to test the TRS-80 stuff). Rather than go through some long drawn out auction process, everything has a fixed price. I figured this would be easier on you, and especially on me :-) All prices are in US $, and you also pay shipping. I accept PayPal, or Money Order. I live in Westminster, MA, USA. My zip code for shipping estimates is 01473. I ship EXCLUSIVELY by US Postal Service. Please do NOT ask for another carrier. I live in a somewhat rural area, and UPS, FedEx, etc., are 1/2-hour in each direction from me. The post office is 3 minutes :-) I will gladly ship internationally, but of course, shipping may be expensive. Also, you will need to pay by international money order or PayPal, in US $. Also, if there are more takers than I have of a particular item, I will put names in a hat and draw them out. This is the most fair way to do it, especially for those who get the digest. I will accept orders until 08:00 USA eastern time Thursday, August 30th. Soon after that, I will notify people of what they got. PLEASE include a ZIP code in your order. Not your whole address, just a ZIP code, so I can estimate shipping. Here we go: HARDWARE - IIc, dirty keyboard, yellowed, school markings on bottom, $2.00 - IIc, yellowed, sticker residue, name engraved on top, bad keyboard, but replacement keyboard included, $2.00 - IIc, top and side very yellow, rest OK, no markings, good keyboard, $5.00 - IIc, very little yellowing, clean, good keyboard, no markings, $5.00 - Imagewriter II, w/ power cord, and two black ribbons, still sealed. Tested and working, NO Manual, and NO serial cable, HEAVY!, $10.00 - Apple Monitor III -- Green-screen, tested and working, with stand/power cord, $5.00 - Apple IIc Power Supplies, Qty. 3, tested and working, $5.00 EACH - Laser 128 EX w/ external 5.25", external 3.5", power supply, and manual (User's Guide, BASIC Manual), $20.00 BOOK/ETC - DataStar user's guide -- Manual only, for AII w/ Z80 card and CP/M, $2.00 - SAMS Computerfacts CC1 -- Apple II, II+ -- Schematics, troubleshooting, etc., $10.00 - Apple IIc User's Guide -- commercial , 3rd party book, NOT original Apple manual, by Lon Poole, missing cover, otherwise OK, $2.00 - Basic Apple BASIC, by James S. Coan, $2.00 SOFTWARE - Micro Cookbook software, recipe manager, manual and disk, no box., $2.00 - Championship Lode Runner, manual and disk, no box, $2.00 - Personal Newsletter, manuals, disks, box, $2.00 - Archon game, with disk, manual, reg. card, and box, $2.00 - SkyFox game, with disk, manual, and original box, $2.00 From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 09:34:34 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale Message-ID: Hello all, I have the following TI stuff available. Please see my previous note about Apple II stuff for all terms/conditions.... TI RF Modulator -- Qty. 5, untested, $2.00 EACH TI Power supply -- Qty. 3, untested, $5.00 EACH TI single cassette cable, untested, $5.00 Thanks! Rich B. From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Aug 28 09:49:03 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office people... In-Reply-To: <3B8BA26E.12E58603@idirect.com> Message-ID: Nor do most average people - these locals here go to flea markets and buy "computers" and then when nothing works they call me and I have to tell them that they got screwed. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jerome Fine -> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:54 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office -> people... -> -> -> >Roger Merchberger wrote: -> -> > It's not hard at all -- Where I used to work our secretary kept calling -> > 3.5" floppies "hard disks" and wouldn't change her language at -> my copious -> > requests & sincere attempts at re-education... -> -> Jerome Fine replies: -> -> That is OK! My wife still refers to the terminals laying around -> (VT100 and VT220) -> as computers! I really don't think she understands the difference. -> -> From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Aug 28 10:19:46 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FF3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <<<<>>>>> ! Building your own spare parts is not easy. For that reason, ! if you do it, ! particularly if you turn out a really successful replica, let ! the rest of us ! know about it, since that means that you have the tooling ! worked out and can ! save us the effort of replicating your hard work. If you've ! done that, you ! deserve appropriate compensation, well above the "normal" ! price of a part, for ! making the otherwise impossible-to-replace part available once more. In other (shorter) words, if you're really good at it, people will pay you well for (re)making obsolete parts... :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 28 09:22:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Pictures from VCF East 1.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Here is a photo gallery of the VCF East 1.0 exhibit: > > http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=VCFEAST10&event=VCF%20East%201.0 For those who had trouble seeing the pictures the first time, it's been fixed :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 28 09:24:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: What's a LISA worth In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010828084534.00afde30@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > I have the opportunity to acquire a working Lisa computer. > > Can anyone give me some idea what it's worth? What are you willing to pay for it? I don't think a Lisa is worth anything more than $200 if it is complete and working and includes manuals. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 28 11:18:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office people... In-Reply-To: <3B8BA26E.12E58603@idirect.com> Message-ID: You wouldn't happen to know where I might be able to get a VT340 cheap, would you? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > That is OK! My wife still refers to the terminals laying around (VT100 and VT220) > as computers! I really don't think she understands the difference. From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 28 12:10:34 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD704468889@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: <20010828111758.K2040-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > > connected the BNC on the back of a VT220 to a thinwire ethernet > > network. > > We had a secretary do that once on an early Novel network, didn't > bring it down, just made it VERY SLOW. (The only thing we could > figure was that it allowed data during the re-trace(?). When I got my first real job, being an IT monkey at Saxon Publishers, I didn't know a thing about computer networks. I was expected to learn on the job. One morning, I decided to change my cube's ethernet port from 10 Mbps to 100 Mbps. I located the corresponding cable in The Closet, unplugged it from a 10 Mbps hub, plugged it into a 100 Mbps hub, and left for class. The problem was that I had plugged into port 16, which was shared with the hub's uplink port. The hub dutifully provided service to my computer at port 16 and forgot about the uplink, thus separating itself (and all the Very Important Things connected to it) from the rest of the company network. Business stopped, for 2.5 hours, until I returned gave my frantic co-wokers the clue they needed. I was not fired. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 28 12:16:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FF3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <001701c12fe5$2e40cee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What I was getting at is that there are sufficient folks on this list that if you have a broken it's likely someone else on the list has need for one as well. Even though I consider myself quite good at making my own parts, I'd happily pay someone else for having gone to the trouble of building the tooling, and think an exchange of such availability as can be created among readers of this list might promote restoration that could otherwise end up abandoned. Some people do care about cosmetic issues, after all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:19 AM Subject: RE: Just curious about injection molding or casting > <<<<>>>>> > making the otherwise impossible-to-replace part available once more. > > In other (shorter) words, if you're really good at it, people will > pay you well for (re)making obsolete parts... :-) > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 12:38:13 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Plastic or Ceramic? In-Reply-To: <952.637T1900T4165765optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010828173814.73511.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Adrian Vickers skrev: > OTOH, could any one confirm whether the 68000 was only available in > ceramics at first? The only non-plastic one I've seen was in a very old > system. I have several pre-1980 MC68000 processors in ceramic. My former boss has an XC68000 in ceramic (with a serial number engraved on the lid - #424) I do not recall seeing plastic 68000s until after 1985. It's not proof, but it's some points on the graph. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 12:53:30 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... (and my collection!) In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B116FB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20010828175330.81669.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip... > ! ...Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the first three > ! bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me > ! choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Not unless you have some licensed software locked to a particular ID, no. The only possible problem is if you guess a number that matches another Sun on your network and you'll have all sorts of fun. > You might want to check out this web page... > "SUN NVRAM/hostid FAQ" > http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html > > ..it talks about how to change the MAC address, as well as changing the > battery in the NVRAM chip. I haven't tried resetting the MAC addresses on > my 2 SparcStation 1+ and SparcStation 2 yet, haven't had the chance. I've done it for every sun4c machine I've ever had. At one point, I had a regular expression to grep out six letter words from /usr/dict/words with a-f and perhaps i and o. There are a couple more than c0ffee, but that's the canonical one from the NVRAM FAQ. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 12:57:18 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <200108231215.f7NCF3O16017@bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20010828175718.74992.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Pechter wrote: > Has anyone ever decoded the Sun barcodes and system serial numbers to > figure out what their scheme is on the original id's? I don't know that anyone has ever tried. Obviously, you'd need a large enough sample set of ones that _haven't_ died. Probably tricky by now. I suppose if you could match up original MAC addresses with bar bodes via system logs, you could garner a few examples, but by and large, they are so old that I'd be surprised if any still held a charge on their own. > Why they won't make that available is beyond me. Why, when they can sell you a replacement NVRAM pre-programmed for 3x or more the cost of a factory-fresh one? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Aug 28 12:56:50 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Decoding Nazi Secrets References: <20010828042055.SWCQ4656.imf14bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3B8BDB62.3C442FBE@greenbelt.com> You lose, Godwin's law!!! Oops, this is not USENET and no one actually called anyone a Nazi. Sorry, hehehe... :) Eric Glen Goodwin wrote: > The TV show, man. > > ---------- > > From: Zane H. Healy > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Decoding Nazi Secrets > > Date: Monday, August 27, 2001 11:58 PM > > > > > That's the Nova this week, for people who > > > don't necessarily tune in otherwise. > > > > > > John A. > > > > Huh? > > > > Zane From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Tue Aug 28 12:52:48 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Name that connector... Message-ID: Sounds like you've discovered the classiccmp version of the "guess the number of pennies in the jar and win $100" game. A grand prize of 300 5.25" floppies goes to the person who can correctly name all the connectors on the back of the most obscure machine that Fred can come up with. - M.S. "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" @classiccmp.org on 08/27/2001 11:22:45 AM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" cc: Subject: RE: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? > ! > Slot 1 : Female DA15, Female DB25 > 15 - joystick port, 25 is printer port, and I bet these go to the same card > as slot 5, the DB 9 and DB25 serial ports... The most common uses in a PC for a female DA15 is joystick. The most common uses in a PC for a FEMALE DB25 is printer. But the FEMALE DB25 could be SCSI, and the female DB15 could be sound. But keep in mind that Tony's machine might not be very ordinary. > ! > Slot 2 : 6 Ribbon cables come out (a) ending in a male > ! > DC37, (b,c) ending > ! > in female DB25s, (d,e) ending in male DB25s (narrower > ! > ribbon cables than > ! > b,c), (f) ending in a female DC37 > ! No idea, but from you, probably something homemade :-) > Hard drive controller? EPROM programmer, expansion chassis? Although male DB25s are most often serial, and FEMALE DB25s are most often parallel, they also get used for a LOT of random other general purposes. > ! > Slot 3 : Pushbutton switch, Mini-DIN 6 > ! The switch might be a reset, but no idea on the mini-din 6, > ! M$ bus mouse > ! perhaps? Based on Tony's feelings about mini-din, I'd have to assume that it is a commersial product that he has yet to get around to customizing. Non-maskable interrupt/hardware debug assist (Atron, ...)? > ! > Slot 4 : RCA phono socket, female DE9 > ! That's your video card I think. The most common card for a PC with RCA socket and female DE9 is CGA. No homemade notch for access to the 4 and 6 pin bergs? > ! > Slot 5 : Female DE9, female DB25 > ! serial ports FEMALE!!!! The most common card for a PC with FEMALE DE9 and FEMALE DB25 is the IBM "Monochrome Display and Printer" No notch for access to the 6 pin berg? > ! > Slot 6 : Female DC37 > ! again, I 'm not sure what a DC connector is.... is it a floppy > ! controller? I can't recall the pin count. The most common card for a PC with female DC37 is the IBM Floppy disk controller. But it could be SCSI, expansion chassis, or miscellaneous homebrew. > ! > Slot 7 : Male DB25 > ! parallel port? MALE!!! The most common use of a MALE DB25 for a PC is serial. > ! > Slot 8 : Female DC37 ! ! a second floppy controller? > Also on the back : another male DB25, female 5 pin DIN, ! male and > female IEC mains connectors. ! ! The DB25 could be another > parallel port, MALE!!! serial > the din 5 your ! keyboard, and I ! don't know what IEC > is, but since you say mains I assume that's your ! power cord and > monitor power points. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com Tue Aug 28 12:55:26 2001 From: mjsnodgr at rockwellcollins.com (mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: (doh!) Re: Amusing contest idea... Message-ID: Doh! Next time I'll read all my new mail before responding to something. - M.S. Gene Buckle @classiccmp.org on 08/27/2001 03:06:49 PM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" cc: Subject: Amusing contest idea... > Well, like someone else said, we would have done much better if we > had the box in front of us, even without opening it. Also, I would not have > hooked anything up without first finding out what ports were what... (Gotta > preserve the magic!) > You know, this sounds like a really fun contest to run at the VCF. "Guess The Configuration". :) g. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 13:10:32 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/7xx (was Re: Culture Shock) In-Reply-To: <200108230846.KAA14690@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20010828181032.72837.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 23 Aug, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > > Recently a post apperaed here wherein someone was wanting to give away > > a VAX 11/750. > That is a really nice VAX. Not that fast (0.65 VUPs / MIPS) but it is > one of the more handy real VAXen. (Real means it is no MicroVAX or > VAXstation). Only the VAX 11/730 is smaler. I agree it's a nice VAX, one of my favorites (probably because it was my first experience). The 11/725 is the smallest "real" VAX - a KA730 CPU in a box slightly larger than a BA123, typically with an RC-25 dual disk (25 Mb platter fixed, 25 MB removable cartridge, like an oversized Syquest 44Mb), making the 11/750 the "third" smallest real VAX (not counting the OEMed, rack-mounted VAX-11/751 - same CPU, packaged for the geological/oil industry). The 11/750 maxes out at 14Mb with the right memory controller, 8Mb with the more common one (and 2Mb with the original!). It has three MASSBUS slots for DEC disk and tape and plenty of 3rd-party options (like the SI9900 controllers I have). You can even stick a second UNIBUS off of one of the MASSBUS slots if you _really_ need it (L0010?) We ran VMS 3.x on ours back in the day when that was common. It was retired to a storage locker (mine!) running VMS 4.6 and VMS 5.5-2 (depending on whether you booted the Fujitsu SMD drives off the SI9900 or the RA81). At its greatest extent, it had 8Mb RAM, 1Gb disk, and a raft of Emulex CS-21 serial cards (more than six w/16 ports each). As I said... very nice machine. Ran VMS MAIL and MASS-11 word processing mostly, along with VAX-C. As long as there weren't more than about five active users, it felt like you had the machine to yourself. More memory would have helped. Compiling our entire product from scratch did take several hours. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 28 13:12:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Plastic or Ceramic? References: <20010828173814.73511.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c12fec$effb5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The XC designation normally was applied to pre-production and engineering samples. The MC is what's on most of my early 68000's. I do believe that 1984-85 was when the 68HC000's became available, and THEY were certainly plastic parts. That was the timeframe during which they released their 'HC11's as well, and I think that had to do with their HCMOS process. Once that was underway, everything went to HCMOS, since it was a cheaper process. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Plastic or Ceramic? > > --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Adrian Vickers skrev: > > OTOH, could any one confirm whether the 68000 was only available in > > ceramics at first? The only non-plastic one I've seen was in a very old > > system. > > I have several pre-1980 MC68000 processors in ceramic. My former boss > has an XC68000 in ceramic (with a serial number engraved on the lid - #424) > > I do not recall seeing plastic 68000s until after 1985. > > It's not proof, but it's some points on the graph. > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Aug 28 13:12:57 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010828141115.00a99930@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:34 AM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I have the following TI stuff available. Please see my previous note about >Apple II stuff for all terms/conditions.... > >TI RF Modulator -- Qty. 5, untested, $2.00 EACH I would like to have the TI modulators. If not already spoken for how much for postage and where do I send the check? P.O. Box 3365, Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Aug 28 13:45:27 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010828141115.00a99930@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3B8BE6C7.1090805@olf.com> Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 10:34 AM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I have the following TI stuff available. Please see my previous note >> about >> Apple II stuff for all terms/conditions.... >> >> TI RF Modulator -- Qty. 5, untested, $2.00 EACH > Not to burst Rich's bubble, but you can get brand-new TI RF Modulators for $1.00 plus shipping. Check out the following site: http://www.99er.net/rfmod.html Cheers, Ram From ransell at tmcindustries.com Tue Aug 28 12:49:46 2001 From: ransell at tmcindustries.com (Robert J. Ansell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Need Freon TF Substitute for Head Cleaning Message-ID: <004a01c12fe9$d525e340$8801a8c0@tmcindustries.com> Gentleman, If any of you have a waste stream of HFE 7100 I would like to purchase the dirty material from you. I will buy anywhere from 1-100 drums at this point in time. Best regards, Robert Ansell TMC Industries, Inc. 800-255-5789 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/269dd678/attachment.html From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Aug 28 13:50:55 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010828141115.00a99930@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3B8BE80F.C6B2740@olf.com> Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 10:34 AM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >I have the following TI stuff available. Please see my previous note about > >Apple II stuff for all terms/conditions.... > > > >TI RF Modulator -- Qty. 5, untested, $2.00 EACH > > I would like to have the TI modulators. > > If not already spoken for how much for postage and where do I send the check? > > P.O. Box 3365, Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 Not to burst Rich's bubble, but you can get *BRAND-NEW* TI RF Modulators for $1.00 plus shipping at the following site: http://www.99er.net/rfmod.html Usually comes to about $5 in total.... Cheers, Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Aug 28 14:46:50 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: DEC rack header plates Message-ID: <20010828144650.F9901@mrbill.net> Anybody know a source of DEC rack header panels (the maroon/red ones) with or without logo, or for the black "cover panels"? I've got a maroon/red pdp11 header panel, and a "blank" maroon/red one, but not the black panels to cover the rest of the cabinet.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Aug 28 15:03:27 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <20010828111758.K2040-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: Even better than that - how about accidentally moving an RJ45 from an ehter hub/switch to the newer type token ring RJ45 port - oops- no workie GI. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp -> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:11 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? -> -> -> > > connected the BNC on the back of a VT220 to a thinwire ethernet -> > > network. -> > -> > We had a secretary do that once on an early Novel network, didn't -> > bring it down, just made it VERY SLOW. (The only thing we could -> > figure was that it allowed data during the re-trace(?). -> -> When I got my first real job, being an IT monkey at Saxon Publishers, I -> didn't know a thing about computer networks. I was expected to learn on -> the job. One morning, I decided to change my cube's ethernet -> port from 10 -> Mbps to 100 Mbps. I located the corresponding cable in The Closet, -> unplugged it from a 10 Mbps hub, plugged it into a 100 Mbps hub, and left -> for class. -> -> The problem was that I had plugged into port 16, which was -> shared with the -> hub's uplink port. The hub dutifully provided service to my computer at -> port 16 and forgot about the uplink, thus separating itself (and all the -> Very Important Things connected to it) from the rest of the company -> network. Business stopped, for 2.5 hours, until I returned gave my -> frantic co-wokers the clue they needed. -> -> I was not fired. -> -> -- -> Jeffrey S. Sharp -> jss@subatomix.com -> -> From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 28 15:46:29 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com wrote: > Sounds like you've discovered the classiccmp version of the "guess the > number of pennies in the jar and win $100" game. A grand prize of 300 > 5.25" floppies goes to the person who can correctly name all the connectors > on the back of the most obscure machine that Fred can come up with. Sounds GREAT! I assume that _I_ win the 300 5.25" floppies if nobody can correctly name all of the connectors on the back of the most obscure machine that I can come up with! Who will be giving me the floppies? If I can include some of the boards that I gave away in the last two years (clearing my space), I don't think that I have much chance of losing. I could probably win a similar contest based just on floppy stuff. One of my 286 machines had one board DC37 female (NOT drive related) one board DE9 female plus DB25 female, NOT video nor parallel HINT: the two above boards were separate boards from different manufacturers, but the DC37 and DB25 were cabled to two inputs of a switch box. 50 pin dual row header male DB25 female DC37 female DC37 female DE9 female, NOT CGA, nor MDA, nor EGA, nor VGA, nor PGA DE9 female, NOT video 9 floppies (2 360, 1 720K 5.25, 1 1.2M 5.25, 1 8", 1 1.4M/floptical, 1 2.8M, 1 3", 1 3.25") (NOTE: some of the floppies were connected through switches, and could not ALL be used at the same time.) The machine had no lid for the "case", and usually had 2 power supplies. The machine next to it was an IBM XT with 6 floppies (no switches, all drives active): A: 360K B: 360K c: 720K 5.25 D: 720K 3.5 e: hard drive g: 1.4M/floptical H: 2.8M -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Aug 28 16:08:58 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Solbourne VME Boards Message-ID: Several types of Heurikon boards are listed in the VME bus FAQ. About 1988 we used to build Heurikon based Unix systems for medical image processing. We used the Multibus variety not VME. 400MB Fujitsu eagles 800/1600 bpi Kennedy tape drives 40MB QIC tape drives Hyperchannel Network RAMTEK color monitor 512X512 Megascan BW Monitor 2500 X 2000 Later we added 12" LMSI WORM drives Each image was 10MB and I put 4 per tape. There used to be a www.heurikon.com page. Mike mmcfadden@com From aek at spies.com Tue Aug 28 16:26:39 2001 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Corvus OmniNet Protocol??? Message-ID: <200108282126.OAA02068@spies.com> The basic transporter was a Motorola synchronous serial interface chip, a 68xx microcontroller, and a Corvus ASIC. NEC built an integrated device for them later. The service manuals for some of the early peripheral controllers described it in detail, unfortunately the only person that still has that information is Eric Lander, and I have no good contact info for him any more. The Macintosh version of the Constellation software just used the SCC I assume in HDLC mode. From jss at subatomix.com Tue Aug 28 16:43:38 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: DEC rack header plates In-Reply-To: <20010828144650.F9901@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010828163913.X2395-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > > Anybody know a source of DEC rack header panels (the maroon/red ones) > with or without logo, or for the black "cover panels"? I've got a > maroon/red pdp11 header panel, and a "blank" maroon/red one, but not > the black panels to cover the rest of the cabinet.. I would like to know too. I've got sufficient black filler panels (I think), but I need the maroon/red panels (one with logo and one without). -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mranalog at home.com Tue Aug 28 16:47:33 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Altair documentation Message-ID: <3B8C1175.D38AC3BD@home.com> Hi, Does anyone know how to contact Steve Shepard in Albuquerque? Has anyone talked to him lately or know if he still sell copies of Altair manuals? It's been a couple of years since I talked to him and I don't think I ever did have his email address. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 13:50:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: <1180.640T1000T1414753optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Aug 28, 1 02:21:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1801 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/b45c7935/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 14:00:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8B021D.522ACF5E@unity.ncsu.edu> from "Matt Wilda" at Aug 27, 1 10:29:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/f048e26f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 14:11:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8B3085.90D825E7@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Aug 28, 1 01:47:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/a92cb6f4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 15:13:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics) In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Aug 28, 1 01:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/2b4477f9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 15:47:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Opening a Z-19: Thanks! In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Aug 28, 1 08:54:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/2cb70af5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 15:53:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Aug 28, 1 09:16:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/e65963f8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 15:55:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office In-Reply-To: <3B8BA26E.12E58603@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Aug 28, 1 09:53:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/404a0dda/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Tue Aug 28 17:31:36 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > See, I get confused with that second letter. What makes it a DE9, and > > not a DB9? > > The shell size : > normal high denisty > D : 50 pin (Sun-style SCSI) ???? ^^^^ |||| This one has something like 72 pins, and is used with some frequency on multi-port serial configurations. IBM uses them on their 6-port ASCII Workstation Controllers which fit AS/400 machines, and I have a couple of DigiBoard MC/8 cards which use this connector for the host-end of the octopus cable. > Yes, it's conventional to give the gender of the pins. This is confusing > for a number of connector types, including D-series. I liked another subscriber's idea: use "plug" and "socket". Though I guess I could see how this might also be confusing. ok r. From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 18:01:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: another NeXT question... In-Reply-To: <3B86D82F.193CBCC9@texoma.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20010823102950.00a52d58@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824094810.00a1dcb8@192.168.1.2> <3.0.6.32.20010824164442.0106cb98@192.168.1.2> <01Aug24.122702edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B86D82F.193CBCC9@texoma.net> Message-ID: >I probably should be ashamed, but I read my mail on a Wintel box. If I >check mail on the NeXT, I just use the Mailman web interface server from >my ISP to read it as a web page. I've downloaded PopOver from Peak so I >could access my pop server and still use mail.app. Just haven't had the >time to set it up yet. Just set up PopOver today and modified sendmail per the instructions in it's help file so that it could send mail as well as recieve. The Cube is on our LAN interacting with everything except for MS Exchange, though it does send mail out using SMTP on the Exchange server and pulls mail in from POP on Earthlink's mail server. Even got the routing problem worked out. Omniweb in B/W isn't pretty, but it's proving to still be useful on the web. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From timc at lexicon.net Tue Aug 28 18:07:54 2001 From: timc at lexicon.net (Tim Crawley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? References: <3B8B1171.4080809@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <002d01c13016$44aeba80$fd1ea8c0@autobots.local> Hi Gunther, I know I have said this before, but I have and will scan in the 11/785 Installation manual that covers the CPU upgrade. I will try to do some tonight. According to the upgrade manual: Upgrading the KA780 to a KA785 consists of replacing the CPU cardcage and backplane assembly, inserting new CPU modules, replacing the memory board in the LSI-11, and attaching a new logo to the CPU cabinet. So you need the 11/785 card cage/backplane and a new memory board for the console computer. No changes to power supplies. I would think that it would be hard to source the new card cage/ backplane and LSI-11 memory board, but if you can get your hands on a working 11/780 take it! They are really nice old hardware, its only 0.5 of a VUP (although when you compare 1VUP to 1.5VUPs its 33% increase). Regards, Tim. > Hello, > > I know some of you are former VAX field service technicians or > have other deep working knowledge of this: what exactly (!) > does it take to upgrade a VAX 11/780 to a VAX 11/785 (or > 11/780-5 as it was called.) I believe this includes changing > the SBI backplane. But what else does it include? Is the > console computer any different? Power supply? > > As you probably all know, I have the 11/785 board set on > hand but no cabinet. Now I have the chance of transporting > one or two 11/780 accross the country. Those are in real > good shape as I gather (were stored inside!) So I figure I > rather have a nice 11/780 than a rusty incomplete 11/785 > that lacks a console computer. And with some chance I can > upgrade one to an 11/780-5. So, what does it take? > > thanks for your advice, > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Aug 28 18:06:12 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Hard vs. Floppy disk education... (was: RE: Are office References: Message-ID: <3B8C23E3.1FD7B891@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > That is OK! My wife still refers to the terminals laying around (VT100 and VT220) > > as computers! I really don't think she understands the difference. > The hardware side of me (actually 'most of me') points out that the VT100 > contains an 8080, and the VT220 some other processor (8031??). So they > are dedicated computers.... NO COMMENT!! - I don't want this to become a long thread even though the VT100 is actually on topic. From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Aug 28 18:13:50 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Plessey "PDP-11" References: <10108272148.ZM21752@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <3B8C25AD.AC6760A2@idirect.com> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > I've acquired a Plessey PDP-11 clone, which has a KDJ11-AC and a bunch of > Plessey boards (no other original DEC parts). I was interested in it > because it has a full install of RT11 V4.00 and TSX-11, and it has a SCSI > (or maybe just SASI) card in it. However, it has no documentation :-( It > also has no floppy, just a winchester and an ancient QIC tape drive. > > Has anyone got any information on the Plessey cards in this machine? Jerome Fine replies: I may have one of these as well - it sounds similar. I have not used it in about 4 years. It is too slow (I have only an 11/23) and has too little disk drive capacity compared to the system in a BA123 box that I acquired somewhat later. There is a program that goes on the QIC tape to make a backup of the RL02 plus there is an RT-11 V4.00 device driver for the tape drive. At one point I added the DEC RX02 controller and the RX02 drive. I don't know how much longer I will keep it. Anyone willing to pick it up in Toronto. Also, I just received an 11/93 system board with 2 MBytes of memory and a KXJ11-CA (M8981-AA and M7616). I remember reading about software to use the KXJ11-CA as a co-processor. Can anyone provide any information? Also, the cabinet kit for the 11/93 uses one DB25 and 7 DB9 connectors. But one cable is not separate from the cable going to the front panel. Is this a problem in a Qbus system? The 11/94 box is damaged, but there are a number of other boards including: (a) 91-G41402-C REV B QTLM (b) Able Computer 10340 - probably a Qnivertor??? (c) M9061 (d) Imperial Technology A4880 (e) Imperial Technology A358 (quantity 2) (f) M9047 - Qbus Bus Grant cards - many (g) G7273 - Unibus Bus Grant cards ??? - many (h) Advanced Computer Communication UPB-HSIO 93-000484-E Rev A (a two board set) These boards are available (as is the damaged power supply and backplane) subject to some sort of compensation for the person that gave them to me. The boards can be shipped. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 17:15:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 28, 1 01:46:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010828/20e16000/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 18:21:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Aug 28, 1 06:31:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1533 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/1b160117/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Tue Aug 28 19:11:06 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:59 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Thanks. I was going to say 78 pins, but I wasn't sure. I think you're right, with 78. I don't have one in front of me just at this very minute. Four rows of pins. Yeesh! > So, to avoid confusion I tend to use 'male' and 'female'. And then I run > into problems over whether it's the pins or the housing I am describing. I misremembered it. It was "pins and sockets" which seems somehow slightly less ambiguous. But maybe not. ok r. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 28 19:14:16 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <15244.13272.14579.464628@phaduka.neurotica.com> On August 29, Tony Duell wrote: > So, to avoid confusion I tend to use 'male' and 'female'. And then I run > into problems over whether it's the pins or the housing I am describing. Pins vs. housing is easy to remember if you picture...well, umm, sex. Housings are seldom...umm, well, round. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 28 20:01:06 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: <15244.13272.14579.464628@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000f01c13026$157eb340$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Time to make this connector based comment I suppose. I noticed just a short while ago that: the predominant power suppliers are female in connectors, (as well as other things, probably). The reasoning (for the connectors) is intuitive. True of wall warts, IEC connectors, extension cords, wall outlets cigarette lighters PC-PSU's and on and on. Something to mention to your SO's at a crucial moment. John A. From foo at siconic.com Tue Aug 28 19:08:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I assume that _I_ win the 300 5.25" floppies if nobody can correctly name > > all of the connectors on the back of the most obscure machine that I can > > come up with! > > No, that makes it biased in your favour. It is trivial to find cards that > nobody else will guess.... In at least one game of this type (having to > guess something set by another person), the rules are worded so that it > is in the interests of the setter to pick said thing (the machine > configuration in this case) so that 1 or 2 people guess it correctly, but > no so easy that everyone gets it. Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Aug 28 20:30:18 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: HP 1820-1691 microprocessor pinout In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20010828212436.00968a30@206.231.8.2> Hmmm, it could be an F8 Tony. My HP9825 books are buried at the back end of the attic but I recall the F8 microcontroller was a fairly common MCU that HP used in these applications. Try finding an F8 pinout (3851 IIRC, by MOSTEK) and see how it works out. Found anything on it in the meantime? Regards, Chris -- -- Upon the date 10:14 PM 8/12/01 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >Does anyone have the pinout of the HP 1820-1691 microprocessor (HP may >have called it a nanoprocessor in some manuals!) to hand? > >This is a custom chip (AFAIK), 40 pin ceramic DIL package that was used as >a controller in a number of HP devices in the late 1970s. It was certainly >used in the HP 98034 HPIB interface and HP 98035 clock (for the HP9825 >calculator), and may have been used in other peripherals (HP 9885 disk >drive, some plotters/printers?). > >If anyone has a pinout (or a schematic of a device that uses said >processor), could they post (or e-mail me) a text file giving the names >of the signals on as many pins as possible. > >Thanks in a advance for any help > >-tony Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 28 20:44:08 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Message-ID: <000401c1302e$e976a420$1a749a8d@ajp166> Rich, If you need a S100 PS I have one free for picking up. That transformer is far to heavy to ship. FYI this one has the regulators for 8" drives. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Rich Beaudry To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! >Hello all, > >Thanks to all those who replied to my message regarding S-100 power >supplies, and thanks especially to Dick Erlacher, who offered to sell me >some cheap. I got a private email reply from someone offering the same >thing, and I took him up on it first. So to Dick, I'll pass but thanks >anyway... > >The main problem in all of this was not ever the design. As Allison pointed >out, an unregulated supply is dead simple to design. Even looking at some >commercially designed/built S-100 supplies, you can see it's not rocket >science. The problem nowadays is finding one part -- the transformer. Most >all computers are +5V, +/-12V now, and of course transformer manufacturers >gear towards those. Even some of the surplus places I've gone to on the web >only have "common" voltages (+5V, +/- 12V, +24V, etc). That's why I wanted >to see if there was an SMPS that would do the trick. After looking at SMPS >prices, however, I've decided no to go that route. I'm sure they're >bullet-proof, and would function admirably, but I'm not going to plunk down >$200+ for one :-) (remember, we're talking high current here, not just the >little 1A switcher). > >Anyway, thanks to all ... > >Rich B. > From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 28 21:01:11 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: DEC rack header plates References: <20010828163913.X2395-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B8C4CE7.44A9E48@bellsouth.net> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > > Anybody know a source of DEC rack header panels (the maroon/red ones) > > with or without logo, or for the black "cover panels"? I've got a > > maroon/red pdp11 header panel, and a "blank" maroon/red one, but not > > the black panels to cover the rest of the cabinet.. > > I would like to know too. I've got sufficient black filler panels (I > think), but I need the maroon/red panels (one with logo and one without). Since you mentioned it, I am looking for the blank (no logo) header panel for an 11/70 peripheral rack. This is different from the regular maroon over red header panel. It is all maroon with a thin red outline stripe. Thanks. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From ken at seefried.com Tue Aug 28 21:23:29 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Heurikon (was: RE: Solbourne VME Boards) In-Reply-To: <200108290132.UAA02619@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200108290132.UAA02619@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010829022329.16274.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: "McFadden, Mike" > There used to be a www.heurikon.com page. They are at http://www.artesyncp.com/. They've changed "corporate focus", so support for things like my V532 (NS32532) and Nitro260 (MC68060) are not a priority, although their support folks have really done all they can to help me out. Nice people. Ken From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Aug 28 22:26:57 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: <3B8C4CE7.44A9E48@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200108290326.WAA25396@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I was just checking out california digitals web site, and i see they have a couple things of possible interest to others. They have DEC backplanes, 4 slot dual width, for $9.00 They also have Teletype model 40 terminals, supporting RS/232 and Current Loop, and sporting a somewhat interesting 70's terminal style. These are listed at $49.00 each. Of course they still have the usual stuff, 10 and 16 sector floppy disks, copies of CP/M, etc. www.cadigital.com -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 28 22:32:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <004001c1303b$316fd1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Winding a transformer is not a way to save money if you value your time at 50-cents per hour. I offered to ship him a complete S-100 mainframe for $5 + freight, and that didn't interest him, even as a parts supply. I do believe he has specific needs that he's trying to meet, but I really doubt he's likely to roll-his-own transformer, since, though they're expensive, the parts to build them still cost more than a ready-built transformer from a surplus house. Marlin P. Jones & associates, www.mpja.com, Mouser Electronics, www.mouser.com, among others, certainly HAVE the things. Finding one that's "just right" was never easy. Nevertheless, for $50 or so a guy can have a pair of transformers, e.g. 8 VAC @ 10 A and 34 V center-tapped, at, say, 2 amps tops, would certianly be adequate for systems that don't try to use the old 4K or 8K SRAM boards. A transformer capable of that, under load, which, BTW, I got from MITS when they were liquidated, is about the size of a small grapefruit and weighs about 6#. My last one is destined to be used as a replacement for one just like it in a box I built in '82 or so. With today's low-dropout regulators, e.g. LM330, it's perfectly reasonable to use a 6.3 volt transformer, e.g. the filament heater for a 4-1000 (?) transmitter tube (I think that's what my first one was) and there are plenty of those around, still. Now, I know you're a purist, and that you're much more oriented to such things than I am, but winding a transformer in order to build an S-100 supply ... gee ... I don't know ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > The main problem in all of this was not ever the design. As Allison pointed > > out, an unregulated supply is dead simple to design. Even looking at some > > True, and there are plenty of S100 PSU diagrams available to give you ideas. > > > commercially designed/built S-100 supplies, you can see it's not rocket > > science. The problem nowadays is finding one part -- the transformer. Most > > Have you considered winding your own transformer. > > In the UK we can buy 'transformer kits'. Certainly ones up to 100VA are > easy to find, and I suspect larger ones exist as well. The kit contains a > bobbin with the primary windings pre-wound and tested (2 115V primary > windings, connect them in series for UK 230V mains, in parallel for USA > 115V mains as usual), and a pile of laminations, clamps, mounting > brackets, etc. > > You have to provide the wire to wind the secondaries, wind them, and put > the laminations together. > > It works out more expensive than a ready-made transformer, but of course > you can wind it for any voltage you like. > > 100VA is a bit small for an S100 PSU (although maybe it would do for the > +8V only,and use a second transformer for the +/-16V lines), but as I > said you might be able to get larger kits. > > According to my calculator, 6.3V * sqrt(2) = 8.9V or thereabouts. Since > the 8V line is unregulated anyway, I would think you could start with a > 6.3V transformer. Can you really no longer buy valve heater transformers??? > > -tony > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 28 22:38:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Slightly OT, but... Message-ID: ...if anyone will know, it will be one of you. Using one of the accelerator boards as a template, would it be too difficult to design a 68060 accelerator board for a 68040 NeXT? I guess a big part of this question is: how different is the architecture of the 68060 to that of the 68040? Peace... Sridhar From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Aug 28 22:39:22 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? References: <200108281219.f7SCJqP10625@bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> Thanks Bill and Tim, this gives me some idea. I might actually be able to get a SBI backplane assembly from an 11/785 otherwise in not so good shape (Will?) But I'm not sure I can get the LSI-11 console computer of a 11/785. So it sounds like I need just one additional RAM board for the LSI-11? Does that have a product code or number that I could ask or whatch out for? Would it come from a second LSI-11 (e.g., being just another memory board of the same kind?) The software and microcode may end up being more headache. First I hope I will get any RX01 disk drive to begin with. Then where to get the software from? Could it be copied from an existing 11/785 that someone else might have? thanks, -Gunther > The CPU backplane gets swapped along with the board set. > I believe the console 11/03 may get more memory as well (my memory > is a bit hazy on that). IIRC it goes to 28kw from 16kw. > > I think power is still the same. > The console software load is different > > The 11/785 has more wcs so you need 11/785 console software with > different microcode -- so without the RX01 disks you'll never > boot the machine. > > Bill > > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 28 22:44:09 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital References: <200108290326.WAA25396@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c1303c$dd181ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> IIRC, those things ( the TTY model 40's) WEIGH a TON! I had something like that, including the printer, and I think the only part I could lift by myself was the modem, which was a Bell 202. Not to be negative, but ... $49 might be OK, but freight will be quite a bit more. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence LeMay" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: california digital > I was just checking out california digitals web site, and i see they have > a couple things of possible interest to others. > > They have DEC backplanes, 4 slot dual width, for $9.00 > > They also have Teletype model 40 terminals, supporting RS/232 and > Current Loop, and sporting a somewhat interesting 70's terminal > style. These are listed at $49.00 each. > > Of course they still have the usual stuff, 10 and 16 sector floppy > disks, copies of CP/M, etc. > > www.cadigital.com > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 28 23:14:20 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 28, 2001 09:44:09 PM Message-ID: <200108290414.f7T4EL406637@shell1.aracnet.com> > IIRC, those things ( the TTY model 40's) WEIGH a TON! I had something like > that, including the printer, and I think the only part I could lift by myself > was the modem, which was a Bell 202. Not to be negative, but ... $49 might be > OK, but freight will be quite a bit more. In that case since the page says they were made for the US Navy they're probably TEMPEST. In looking at them my concern was, what would support them? Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 28 23:17:21 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Slightly OT, but... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Aug 28, 2001 11:38:04 PM Message-ID: <200108290417.f7T4HLK06795@shell1.aracnet.com> > ...if anyone will know, it will be one of you. > > Using one of the accelerator boards as a template, would it be too > difficult to design a 68060 accelerator board for a 68040 NeXT? I guess a > big part of this question is: how different is the architecture of the > 68060 to that of the 68040? I think the real problem is that the OS wouldn't like the CPU. If you want a faster NeXT system you're probably better off buying a Semi modern PC with a nicely outfited Matrox Millenium II graphics card (IIRC, that's the best card OPENSTEP 4.2 supports). This would also allow you to have 100Mbit ethernet (the lack of which was why I gave away my slab). Zane From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Aug 28 23:44:54 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital Message-ID: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> But the prices on *most* of their stuff is outta sight-- I don't care if most of their merchandise is 'NOS'; I still think the guy who's pricing this stuff is smoking a mind-altering drug . . . On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:26:57 -0500 (CDT) Lawrence LeMay writes: > I was just checking out california digitals web site, and i see they > have > a couple things of possible interest to others. > > They have DEC backplanes, 4 slot dual width, for $9.00 > > They also have Teletype model 40 terminals, supporting RS/232 and > Current Loop, and sporting a somewhat interesting 70's terminal > style. These are listed at $49.00 each. > > Of course they still have the usual stuff, 10 and 16 sector floppy > disks, copies of CP/M, etc. > > www.cadigital.com > > -Lawrence LeMay > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Aug 28 23:59:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Slightly OT, but... In-Reply-To: <200108290417.f7T4HLK06795@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think the real problem is that the OS wouldn't like the CPU. If you want > a faster NeXT system you're probably better off buying a Semi modern PC with > a nicely outfited Matrox Millenium II graphics card (IIRC, that's the best > card OPENSTEP 4.2 supports). This would also allow you to have 100Mbit > ethernet (the lack of which was why I gave away my slab). Well, ok. Is there specific support for the Nitro and Pyro boards in NeXTstep or something? Also, I'm not really interested in having a PC. I think the NeXT black hardware is neat. I just would like it to be a little faster. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 00:11:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital References: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <000d01c13049$191f1da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Some of their 20-year-old FDD's are priced right at where they were when new. Do you suppose it's possible they're old inventory? These guys used to advertise in Kilobaud. That's where I first saw their ad. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff L Kaneko" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:44 PM Subject: Re: california digital > > But the prices on *most* of their stuff is outta sight-- > I don't care if most of their merchandise is 'NOS'; I still think the > guy who's pricing this stuff is smoking a mind-altering > drug . . . > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:26:57 -0500 (CDT) Lawrence LeMay > writes: > > I was just checking out california digitals web site, and i see they > > have > > a couple things of possible interest to others. > > > > They have DEC backplanes, 4 slot dual width, for $9.00 > > > > They also have Teletype model 40 terminals, supporting RS/232 and > > Current Loop, and sporting a somewhat interesting 70's terminal > > style. These are listed at $49.00 each. > > > > Of course they still have the usual stuff, 10 and 16 sector floppy > > disks, copies of CP/M, etc. > > > > www.cadigital.com > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From leec at slip.net Wed Aug 29 01:03:54 2001 From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? In-Reply-To: <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Gunther, I *may* have the boot disks for one of my 785s. I'll check in the next week (I'm at Linux World this week). If you haven't heard from me by the end of next week ping me. Lee Courtney President Monterey Software Group Inc. 1350 Pear Avenue, Suite J Mountain View, California 94043-1302 U.S.A. 650-964-7052 voice 650-964-6735 fax Advanced Authentication, Audit, and Access Control Tools and Consulting for HP3000 Business Servers http://www.editcorp.com/Businesses/MontereySoftware > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? > > > Thanks Bill and Tim, this gives me some idea. > > > I might actually be able to get a SBI backplane assembly > from an 11/785 otherwise in not so good shape (Will?) But > I'm not sure I can get the LSI-11 console computer of a > 11/785. So it sounds like I need just one additional > RAM board for the LSI-11? Does that have a product code > or number that I could ask or whatch out for? Would it > come from a second LSI-11 (e.g., being just another > memory board of the same kind?) > > The software and microcode may end up being more headache. > First I hope I will get any RX01 disk drive to begin with. > Then where to get the software from? Could it be copied > from an existing 11/785 that someone else might have? > > thanks, > -Gunther > > > > The CPU backplane gets swapped along with the board set. > > I believe the console 11/03 may get more memory as well (my memory > > is a bit hazy on that). IIRC it goes to 28kw from 16kw. > > > > I think power is still the same. > > The console software load is different > > > > The 11/785 has more wcs so you need 11/785 console software with > > different microcode -- so without the RX01 disks you'll never > > boot the machine. > > > > Bill > > > > > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Aug 29 01:48:54 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <20010828175718.74992.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200108231215.f7NCF3O16017@bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010828234747.02fc51f0@mail.zipcon.net> their support staff doesn't even have access to that information, to get a replacement you have to pay them the $ and give them the barcode off your old one, I presume someone there has a lookup table to get the hostid..... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 29 01:42:57 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the >hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? What color are they? I do have plenty of black, red, and yellow. but green would be nice. Or blue ... From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 05:39:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Slightly OT, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Using one of the accelerator boards as a template, would it be too >difficult to design a 68060 accelerator board for a 68040 NeXT? I guess a >big part of this question is: how different is the architecture of the >68060 to that of the 68040? Phase5/DCE used the same board for both the '040 and '060 versions of the Cyberstorm. Maybe clues as to doing such a board could be found at this page that details one person's conversion of the '040 board into an '060: http://www.rit.edu/~wwt5491/csmk2.html Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 29 06:49:58 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator References: <200108281219.f7SCJqP10625@bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com> <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Only on topic if it's considered a use for NTSC monitors... Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. John A. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp883.monmouth.com Wed Aug 29 07:02:47 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp883.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 to 785 upgrade, what does it take? In-Reply-To: <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> from Gunther Schadow at "Aug 28, 2001 10:39:22 pm" Message-ID: <200108291202.f7TC2lF15468@bg-tc-ppp883.monmouth.com> > Thanks Bill and Tim, this gives me some idea. > > > I might actually be able to get a SBI backplane assembly > from an 11/785 otherwise in not so good shape (Will?) But > I'm not sure I can get the LSI-11 console computer of a > 11/785. So it sounds like I need just one additional > RAM board for the LSI-11? Does that have a product code > or number that I could ask or whatch out for? Would it > come from a second LSI-11 (e.g., being just another > memory board of the same kind?) > > The software and microcode may end up being more headache. > First I hope I will get any RX01 disk drive to begin with. > Then where to get the software from? Could it be copied > from an existing 11/785 that someone else might have? > > thanks, > -Gunther > Copying it will be a snap for anyone with a PDP with either RX01's or RX02's if someone has a spare copy to begin with. Even the VAX can copy it with it's single RX01. Bill From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Aug 29 07:17:22 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... (and my collection!) In-Reply-To: <20010828175330.81669.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>; from erd_6502@yahoo.com on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 10:53:30AM -0700 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615B116FB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <20010828175330.81669.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010829141722.A16450@frodo> On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 10:53:30AM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I've done it for every sun4c machine I've ever had. At one point, I > had a regular expression to grep out six letter words from /usr/dict/words > with a-f and perhaps i and o. There are a couple more than c0ffee, but > that's the canonical one from the NVRAM FAQ. On Solaris 7 (OT, I know) the little Perl snippet below finds 14 matching words, on a current Linux system I get 23 hits. Perl snippet: #!/usr/bin/perl while ( $line = ) { if ( $line =~ /^[a-fio]{6}$/ ) { print $line; } } Regards, Alex. -- We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable. -- Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Aug 29 07:50:51 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... References: Message-ID: <3B8CE52B.F55E40F@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the > hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? I WANT them! Please reply if you will send them. Are they HD (RX33 compatible) or DSDD (RX50 compatible)? From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 29 07:50:45 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200108281219.f7SCJqP10625@bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com> <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010829074856.022dbb40@pc> At 07:49 AM 8/29/01 -0400, John Allain wrote: >Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? >Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. >I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR >and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. Pick up the next VCR you see on the side of the road on garbage day. The mechanism may be broken, but the tuner probably still works. For a while there, everyone was throwing out their Primestar dish and decoder, and those had an easily separable TV tuner and RF modulator. - John From kentborg at borg.org Wed Aug 29 08:21:21 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>; from jeff.kaneko@juno.com on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:44:54PM -0500 References: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010829092121.A10998@borg.org> On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:44:54PM -0500, Jeff L Kaneko wrote: > But the prices on *most* of [cadigital.com's] stuff is outta sight-- And their web site seems to be Macromedia Flash-only--at least using Netscape on Linux without Flash all I get is a hit counter. Stupid. -kb From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Aug 29 07:01:49 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: hardware problem in HP framebuffer? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010829080149.011b3908@obregon.multi.net.co> Gang: I asked a question regarding what I thought was a software problem in Usenet; now it seems that this might actually be an odd hardware problem in the framebuffer or monitor that I am using with my HP735. I think that I might actually get better advice on this list. I am including the posts below; they appear in reverse chronological order; please start reading at the bottom. carlos. From: cem14@cornell.edu (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Subject: Re: Some fonts fuzzy/blurry in 10.20 CDE apps Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 11:51:53 GMT Organization: Cornell University Electrical Engineering Oh-oh. You are right, I have just looked at the image in another system and it looks fine. Now, this is _very_ hard to understand: why would some fonts (even some with very small/narrow features) be displayed fine by the CRX24Z and others not? Since thist now seems to a hardware problem, I have cross-posted to comp.sys.hp.hardware. One more clue: when an improperly displayed font is against a light background and you proceed to highlight it such that it becomes white font over black background, it looks fine! But if the highlighting is white over some lighter background (such as yellow in Netscape) the problem remains. In article <3B8C5279.DD0D1B79@hp.com>, Chuck Slivkoff wrote: >Carlos, > >I looked at both your screen captures and I don't see anything >that looks bad. The font used in the buttons across the top of the >docs site have been smoothed (anti-aliased), but those are bitmap >images which will look the same on any display. I don't see any >problems at all with the other. Perhaps you can edit the images >and circle some examples of which fonts are causing you the problem. > >Can you take a look at your captures from another system? Do they >look the same? If not, I suspect that you may have a hardware >problem, most likely with the graphics adapter. > >-chuck > >Carlos Murillo wrote: >> >> I am having a problem with some of the fonts displayed by >> X apps; they appear washed out, with some of the normally >> dark pixels appearing in white. Hardware: 735/99, CRX24Z; HPUX 10.20 . >> I have changed most settings accessible via SAM on the X server, >> as well as the font sizes in the CDE settings. Nothing happens. >> Note that not all fonts are rendered improperly; just some of them. >> >> I have posted sample screen captures at >> >> http://jimulco.autonoma.edu.co/~carlos/hpux/capture1.tif (60k) >> >> http://jimulco.autonoma.edu.co/~carlos/hpux/capture2.tif (26k) >> >> I have also searched the HP IT Resource Center, but I did not >> find anything relevant. >> >> Does anybody know how to correct this? My eyes are hurting... >> >> carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 29 08:56:46 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010828234747.02fc51f0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: Do we know anyone who works at Sun and who has access to those tables? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > their support staff doesn't even have access to that information, to get a > replacement you have to pay them the $ and give them the barcode off your > old one, I presume someone there has a lookup table to get the hostid..... > > > From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 09:16:09 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Pinging Joe Rigdon Message-ID: Sorry to bother the list but, has anyone heard from Joe? I'm trying to make final plans for the CFCJF (Central Florida computer Junk fest) and need to speak with him. I know his service was down. Not sure if he has a ETA on getting back online. Thanks, SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 29 09:39:39 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... References: Message-ID: <025301c13098$6f39b660$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Of course you'd have to pay them: they have to take a # from from their database, update their mfg systems, mail you a MAC address label...it's a service ans you should expect to pay! IEEE charges about 3KU$ for a range of MAC addresses and entry. Why not just buy a cheap machine from someone close to you for 5 bucks, use the MAC address from it and get it over with ? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1267453464 Anyone can look up OUI mac address vendors codes online http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/oui.txt Or, if it's on your own network - use 00-00-7D and make up the rest! 00-00-7D (hex) SUN MICROSYSTEMS, INC. 00007D (base 16) SUN MICROSYSTEMS, INC. 9480 CARROLL PARK DRIVE SAN DIEGO CA 92121 cheers, Heinz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Absurdly Obtuse" To: "Geoff Reed" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: Re: SS1 ethernet MAC address... > > Do we know anyone who works at Sun and who has access to those tables? > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > > > their support staff doesn't even have access to that information, to get a > > replacement you have to pay them the $ and give them the barcode off your > > old one, I presume someone there has a lookup table to get the hostid..... From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Aug 29 09:48:49 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FF9@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 11:44:54PM -0500, Jeff L Kaneko wrote: ! > But the prices on *most* of [cadigital.com's] stuff is outta sight-- ! ! And their web site seems to be Macromedia Flash-only--at least using ! Netscape on Linux without Flash all I get is a hit counter. Stupid. This should get you by that crap... http://www.cadigital.com/cadigtl.htm --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 29 10:17:43 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator References: <200108281219.f7SCJqP10625@bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com> <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B8D0797.FFD9A584@rain.org> We have seen small 5" TVs on sale for around $20 that can be powered either by wall wart or 12VDC from a cigarette lighter. Occassionally I see VCRs for sale at thrift stores for about $1.00. I have at least five VCRs here that are headed for the recycler ... how many did you want :). John Allain wrote: > > Only on topic if it's considered a use for NTSC monitors... > > Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? > Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. > I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR > and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 29 10:34:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <025301c13098$6f39b660$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: Well, the whole point is that he wanted to get the *original* MAC for the machine. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > Why not just buy a cheap machine from someone close to you > for 5 bucks, use the MAC address from it and get it over with ? From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 10:37:46 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale Message-ID: Ram, No problem! I'm kinda embarrassed that I didn't check out that site first myself... The RF mods I have are untested, and certainly not new, so I can't beat $1.00... Oh well, I'll hang onto them just in case.... Rich B. --------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:50:55 -0400 From: Ram Meenakshisundaram Subject: Re: TI Stuff for Sale Not to burst Rich's bubble, but you can get *BRAND-NEW* TI RF Modulators for $1.00 plus shipping at the following site: http://www.99er.net/rfmod.html From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Aug 29 10:51:39 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: OT: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 Message-ID: <00d101c130a2$81da09f0$6401a8c0@dbnh> I know this is a bit new to be of much interest to people here but I was recently given one of these and am at a loss as to what to do with it. I only received the actual box and I believe it requires a proprietary terminal as a console so I am unable to even determine whether it works. Does anyone here know anything about these machines? From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 10:44:43 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Opening a Z-19: Thanks! Message-ID: Tony, Why does this not surprise me? :-) I will definitely let you all know when I dive in.... Rich B. ----------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:47:24 +0100 (BST) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Opening a Z-19: Thanks! FWIW, I have a Z90 hardware manual alongside me (including schematics, etc). I believe the Z19 is a cut-down version of this (just a terminal, From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 10:59:20 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:53:29 +0100 (BST) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! >Have you considered winding your own transformer. Uhhh ... hadn't thought of that! :-) > In the UK we can buy 'transformer kits'. Did a quick search of a couple of distributors, but no luck yet ... I'll keep looking, though! >According to my calculator, 6.3V * sqrt(2) = 8.9V or thereabouts. Since >the 8V line is unregulated anyway, I would think you could start with a >6.3V transformer. Can you really no longer buy valve heater transformers??? !@$#!@$!!~!!!! I found a couple of 6.3V transformers, one at 8.8A, one at 12A ... I must be going blind... I don't think they'd power my 21-slot backplane, but I do have a couple of smaller ones that would probably be just fine... Rich B. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 11:08:06 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 Video -- again Message-ID: Hello all, I dove back into the Osborne again ... just to recap, on power up there is no video output. Nothing is obviously damaged internally (no broken parts, loose connections, burn marks, etc.). Also, it does respond to the keyboard, as pressing "Enter" after power up causes the floppy to spin (as if looking for the disk you just inserted). Tony suggested tracing the +12V lines to the CRT. My trusty digital multimeter shows me +11.88 volts all the way to the connector on the neck of the CRT. I don't know if 11.88 is close enough to 12, but that's what I get. The CRT neck does not glow at all.... What's the next step, assuming the 11.88V is a "good" voltage? Rich B. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 29 11:39:47 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yep. However, it's not that big of a deal. I did get the new NVRAM chip yesterday and just set the MAC address to what I wanted. It's too much of a pain to get the real address. :) I do appricate the info that's been given though! g. > > Well, the whole point is that he wanted to get the *original* MAC for the > machine. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > > > Why not just buy a cheap machine from someone close to you > > for 5 bucks, use the MAC address from it and get it over with ? > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 11:27:29 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: <3B8CE52B.F55E40F@idirect.com> Message-ID: > >Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the > > hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? If you look through the multiple cubic yards of stuff that you got from me, you won't find floppies. I still think that I want them. On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > I WANT them! Please reply if you will send them. Are they HD (RX33 > compatible) or DSDD (RX50 compatible)? IIRC, the terms for getting the disks was to guess the contents/configuration of the machine based on the connector information supplied. It was never clarified as to who, if anybody, was supplying the prize. So far, Tony has been the only entrant. As expected, his guesses are excellent, BUT, ... they aren't all right, so there is still plenty of opportunity to win. What percentage does he have to get right to win? (If NOBODY wins, then I hope to claim the prize.) All of the boards are commercial products, and although some of them are moderately unusual, _I_ don't consider any of them to be exceptionally rare. Most of them will be available for sale at VCF. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pjschilling at gcstech.net Wed Aug 29 11:38:58 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I gather it is twinax, do you have any connectors? As I remember you can use any twinax terminal but it must be connected to port 0 address 0, IIRC, at least mine are setup that way. I think that I probably have an extra terminal around. All this will be moot point if they wiped out software though. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:52 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: OT: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 I know this is a bit new to be of much interest to people here but I was recently given one of these and am at a loss as to what to do with it. I only received the actual box and I believe it requires a proprietary terminal as a console so I am unable to even determine whether it works. Does anyone here know anything about these machines? From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Aug 29 11:41:09 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: <00d101c130a2$81da09f0$6401a8c0@dbnh> Message-ID: Most of the AS/400's use a standard twinaxial terminal, not really anthing proprietary. I think you need to hook the terminal up to controller 0, port 0. Haven't seen one (including many S/36's) that use a proprietary user terminal. You shoul dhave at least one twinax controller in the unit if they gave it to you as-is. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz -> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:52 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: OT: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 -> -> -> I know this is a bit new to be of much interest to people here but I was -> recently given one of these and am at a loss as to what to do with it. I -> only received the actual box and I believe it requires a proprietary -> terminal as a console so I am unable to even determine whether it works. -> Does anyone here know anything about these machines? -> -> From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 29 11:46:26 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: <000d01c13049$191f1da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >Some of their 20-year-old FDD's are priced right at where they were when new. >Do you suppose it's possible they're old inventory? These guys used to >advertise in Kilobaud. That's where I first saw their ad. In looking at their page last night I noticed that while some of thier prices are quite reasonable, a lot of them are insane! When I say insane, I mean insane even for dealers whose sole reason for existance is keeping old hardware alive! Having said that, I'm really tempted to order some of the reasonable items from them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 29 11:58:50 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: LA36 Decwriter Boards References: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B8D1F4A.904CC32C@rain.org> I picked up three DEC LA36 Decwriter boards and am offering two of them to the list for $4.00 each plus shipping. These are untested but look to be in reasonable condition. Email me if interested. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 29 11:50:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200108281219.f7SCJqP10625@bg-tc-ppp398.monmouth.com> <3B8C63EA.9070305@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: >Only on topic if it's considered a use for NTSC monitors... > >Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? >Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. >I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR >and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. > >John A. I have a "few" tuners available. ATi only works with ATi video boards that have a fun S video input plug that supplies power etc., but they are great fully modern tuners. Proton Tuner, best consumer unit you could buy, but its an early model that only tunes 40 cable channels. Sony TU 110 (I think) designed to work with a PV something monitor, but a clever chap could wire up power etc. easy enough. $30/$20/$7 plus shipping. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Aug 29 12:35:37 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 References: Message-ID: <014901c130b1$0c07d8b0$6401a8c0@dbnh> The only connectors on the back of the machine are a female DB9 labeled "UPS", another labeled "MI", a female DB25 with no label and two plug in modules with the numbers 2609 and 6146 on them. I think I determined that the 2609 is a two port communications adaptor and the 6146 is a floppy adaptor. Where does the twinax cable connect? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Schilling" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: RE: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 > David, > I gather it is twinax, do you have any connectors? As I remember you can > use any twinax terminal but it must be connected to port 0 address 0, IIRC, > at least mine are setup that way. I think that I probably have an extra > terminal around. All this will be moot point if they wiped out software > though. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:52 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 > > > I know this is a bit new to be of much interest to people here but I was > recently given one of these and am at a loss as to what to do with it. I > only received the actual box and I believe it requires a proprietary > terminal as a console so I am unable to even determine whether it works. > Does anyone here know anything about these machines? > > From red at bears.org Wed Aug 29 12:49:50 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: <014901c130b1$0c07d8b0$6401a8c0@dbnh> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, David Betz wrote: > The only connectors on the back of the machine are a female DB9 labeled > "UPS", another labeled "MI", a female DB25 with no label and two plug in > modules with the numbers 2609 and 6146 on them. I think I determined that > the 2609 is a two port communications adaptor and the 6146 is a floppy > adaptor. Where does the twinax cable connect? To a twinaxial workstation controller. On my 9406, it's an IOC on the MFIOP. It sounds as if you have one of the smaller boxes which has a 'built-in' twinaxial workstation controller---that's the DB25f on the back of the box. It sounds like you're missing the twinax breakout, which is a black box with eight twinax jacks, and a cable terminating in a DB25m. Good luck! ok r. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 29 13:00:32 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeff L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:00 2005 Subject: california digital Message-ID: <20010829.130032.88.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:46:26 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >Some of their 20-year-old FDD's are priced right at where they were >> when new. Do you suppose it's possible they're old inventory? Of that, I'm almost certain. They've been sitting on some of this stuff for over twenty years. I run into establishments like this IRL: Some old geezer, store filled to the gunwales with NOS 'stuff', and positively *refuses* to mark down any of the merchandise that's 'slow moving'. Ten years later, the store looks about the same, with the same 'stuff'. . . > In looking at their page last night I noticed that while some of > thier prices are quite reasonable, a lot of them are insane! When I say > insane, I mean insane even for dealers whose sole reason for existance is > keeping old hardware alive! Yep. Like I said: *DRUGS*. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 29 13:08:24 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, the IBM 3278-compatible Twinax terminals will not work. You need 5250-compatible ones. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Phil Schilling wrote: > David, > I gather it is twinax, do you have any connectors? As I remember you can > use any twinax terminal but it must be connected to port 0 address 0, IIRC, > at least mine are setup that way. I think that I probably have an extra > terminal around. All this will be moot point if they wiped out software > though. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:52 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 > > > I know this is a bit new to be of much interest to people here but I was > recently given one of these and am at a loss as to what to do with it. I > only received the actual box and I believe it requires a proprietary > terminal as a console so I am unable to even determine whether it works. > Does anyone here know anything about these machines? > From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Aug 29 13:36:47 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: <014901c130b1$0c07d8b0$6401a8c0@dbnh> Message-ID: One of the adapter cards (probably the db25) gets a cable that has a DB on one end and a big rubber block with 1" round, 2 center socket, connectors, usually 6 of them (max load for a twinax controller). You probably need to try to get that from them if you can or research which of the cards is a twinaxial controller and then locate a source (Black Box = big bux) for a replacement cable. Last year I had access to dozens of cables like that, now nothing as I work mostly smaller ethernet and token ring servers (RS/6000, Server 370, etc). I haven't worked on many S/34, 36 or AS/400 servers since last fall. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz -> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:36 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 -> -> -> The only connectors on the back of the machine are a female DB9 labeled -> "UPS", another labeled "MI", a female DB25 with no label and two plug in -> modules with the numbers 2609 and 6146 on them. I think I determined that -> the 2609 is a two port communications adaptor and the 6146 is a floppy -> adaptor. Where does the twinax cable connect? -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Phil Schilling" -> To: -> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:38 PM -> Subject: RE: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 -> -> -> > David, -> > I gather it is twinax, do you have any connectors? As I -> remember you can -> > use any twinax terminal but it must be connected to port 0 address 0, -> IIRC, -> > at least mine are setup that way. I think that I probably -> have an extra -> > terminal around. All this will be moot point if they wiped -> out software -> > though. -> > -> > Phil -> > -> > -----Original Message----- -> > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz -> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:52 AM -> > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > Subject: OT: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 -> > -> > -> > I know this is a bit new to be of much interest to people here -> but I was -> > recently given one of these and am at a loss as to what to do -> with it. I -> > only received the actual box and I believe it requires a proprietary -> > terminal as a console so I am unable to even determine whether -> it works. -> > Does anyone here know anything about these machines? -> > -> > -> -> From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 29 13:42:59 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: > Only on topic if it's considered a use for NTSC monitors... > > Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? > Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. > I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR > and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. If that is the only part that you want, John, why not pick one up at a thrift shop. It is certain to be a damned site less than $80! - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 12:43:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 28, 1 05:08:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 987 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/bd92394a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 12:58:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: HP 1820-1691 microprocessor pinout In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010828212436.00968a30@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 28, 1 09:30:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/5c3ebd0b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 13:04:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: <004001c1303b$316fd1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 28, 1 09:32:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/467de506/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 12:52:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <15244.13272.14579.464628@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 28, 1 08:14:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 775 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/d853a4a1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 13:14:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Aug 29, 1 07:49:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1142 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/e514e979/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 13:10:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: <20010828.234454.268.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeff L Kaneko" at Aug 28, 1 11:44:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/684bdb0c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 13:22:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 Video -- again In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Aug 29, 1 12:08:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/7b011faf/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 29 14:02:59 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rich Beaudry wrote: > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:53:29 +0100 (BST) > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > >Have you considered winding your own transformer. > > Uhhh ... hadn't thought of that! :-) > > > In the UK we can buy 'transformer kits'. > > Did a quick search of a couple of distributors, but no luck yet ... I'll > keep looking, though! > > >According to my calculator, 6.3V * sqrt(2) = 8.9V or thereabouts. Since > >the 8V line is unregulated anyway, I would think you could start with a > >6.3V transformer. Can you really no longer buy valve heater transformers??? > > !@$#!@$!!~!!!! > > I found a couple of 6.3V transformers, one at 8.8A, one at 12A ... I must be > going blind... I don't think they'd power my 21-slot backplane, but I do > have a couple of smaller ones that would probably be just fine... > > Rich B. If you get one of those, Rich, get it on a returnable basis. Some S-100 cards are really picky about the voltage that the regulator chip sees and if not high enough will not function. - don From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Aug 29 14:10:29 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <025301c13098$6f39b660$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829120552.02fc0650@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:39 AM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote: >Of course you'd have to pay them: they have to take a # from >from their database, update their mfg systems, mail you a >MAC address label...it's a service ans you should expect to pay! >IEEE charges about 3KU$ for a range of MAC addresses and entry. Hmmm, could it be because they should have coded the HostID into something OTHER than a NVRAM that they knew would lose it's battery eventually??? it's just a method to make a few extra bucks to them. Of course there's also the fact that Sun is using a location in the NVRAM that is not in the manufacturers spec so if you get a current rev 48tXX chip to use in your sun, the OBP(bios) complains about a bad NVRAM chip :(:(:( ST Microelectronics recently redid the timekeeper chips using a smaller die, and in doing so, recoded them to operate exactly to what the published spec has always said.. Sun uses a non-documented location in the nvram for some of it's power-on tests so that now fails with the timekeepers that are 100% specification compliant. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 14:55:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > No, that makes it biased in your favour. It is trivial to find cards that > > > nobody else will guess.... In at least one game of this type (having to > > > guess something set by another person), the rules are worded so that it > > > is in the interests of the setter to pick said thing (the machine > > > configuration in this case) so that 1 or 2 people guess it correctly, but > > > no so easy that everyone gets it. Rather than assemble a machine with my weirdest cards, (which WOULD be an unfair challenge), I described a machine that was in daily use in my office (until I closed the office a year ago). That way, I thought that I DID make it such that a few people could guess them. But so far, you seem to be the only one. Some of that stuff will be available at VCF, if anybody is interested. > > Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Sure, but a contest that nobody can possibly win is not much fun IMHO. There's still the possibility of proportional distribution. Since you're the only one who has even tried, we can split the disks. You've already won a significant portion of them. IF anybody ever actually comes through with them! To improve the odds slightly: a major hint (relating to more than one card): there has never been a parallel (centronics style) printer connected to the machine, although there could have been. Since that gives away that a female DB25 is, indeed, a parallel port, then based on what you already know about the machine, what IS connected there? > > hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? > Err, since 5.25" floppies are not easy to find any more, and since most > of use on thls list have at least one machine that uses them, then I > would guess many people here could use them. > I bought 3 plastic carrier bags full of bulk-erased RX50 disks a few > years back and I am darn glad I did. 80 cylinder 5.25" disks are > particularly hard to find now. I'm surprised at the level of problems that you have had with using 360K (300 Oerstedt) diskettes as 720K (300 Oerstedt) disks, particularly since a number of manufacturers freely acknowledge that they are chemically the same, and differ only in testing requirements (If there were NO flaws, they are the same). Could they really be that close to the edge of testing specs? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Aug 29 14:44:05 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: california digital" (Aug 29, 19:10) References: Message-ID: <10108292044.ZM23306@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 29, 19:10, Tony Duell wrote: > Sounds like a surplus shop called 'Display Electronics' over here. The > last advert I saw from them (a couple of months ago) listed 8" floppy > drives for close to \pounds 500 (no, not \pounds 5.00, which is what they > tend to sell for at rallies) What's more, they've been selling -- or at least advertising -- the *same* floppies for over 10 years. I imagine they've not sold (m)any :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 15:02:28 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: <003d01c13080$bb46a1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: > Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? > Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. > I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR > and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. It might help to know a little more about what you are trying to accomplish with it, to know what other parameters there are, such as what range of channels does it need to tune? What kind of output do you want? What physical, price, power, constraints are there? For example, if your goal is merely to make a TV out of a monitor, then a VCR would add extra funtionality. Some cable boxes have composite output. Some closed caption boxes (VR100) have RF and composite in, and RF and composite out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 29 15:02:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator References: Message-ID: <003101c130c5$7d2a4fa0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > why not pick one up at a thrift shop. Actually there is an answer to that, only not a great one. The later the model, the smaller the circuitry. 1970: 12+- boards 1980: 2~3 boards, 1990: 1~2, Then the boards start shrinking inside the case. What I really want is just the tuner, or a real small thing. John A. From dittman at dittman.net Wed Aug 29 15:06:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Aug 29, 2001 02:08:24 PM Message-ID: <200108292006.f7TK6g400436@narnia.int.dittman.net> > No, the IBM 3278-compatible Twinax terminals will not work. You need > 5250-compatible ones. I have a Priam 5250-compatible terminal controller. It takes a standard PS/2 keyboard and a VGA monitor. I'm not sure if it works other than I connected the controller to a keyboard and monitor and got a display. The box has a passive ISA bus (two or three slots, I think) with one card plugged in. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection. From foo at siconic.com Wed Aug 29 14:08:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Sounds like a surplus shop called 'Display Electronics' over here. The > last advert I saw from them (a couple of months ago) listed 8" floppy > drives for close to \pounds 500 (no, not \pounds 5.00, which is what > they tend to sell for at rallies) Believe it or not, due to their general scarcity from normal market channels, 8" floppy drives can demand a high price from those who really need it to keep some old gear that uses one for storage alive. When you've got an operation that can break down completely due to a single 8" floppy drive going bad, UKP500 is a small price to pay. It's all relative. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 29 15:11:10 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator References: Message-ID: <004d01c130c6$bf81d7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Tony +AD4- I don't like pulling apart possibly working machines Me neither. But for broken ones that are nonunique esp VCR's, +ACE-IBM PC's, I'm pretty tough. I give them some time (1/2 hour) max to 'do something neat' under my care (in dissasembly) If it flunks, I part it out. P.S. Tom Owad, the PC portable works fine, just a few internal cables in the wrong places. Almost flunked the 1/2 hour rule. Then I noticed the video subsystem ran off of a single 12V source. +ACo-Neat+ACo- +ACo-Saved+ACo- John A. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 15:17:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <002e01c130c7$af2be840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > > > Winding a transformer is not a way to save money if you value your time at > > 50-cents per hour. I offered to ship him a complete S-100 mainframe for $5 + > > You've made this sort of comment before, and I still can't understand it... > Well, take it in context. Go back and read the first post from Jeff Hellige. See how far we've drifted from his problem, which is finding an inexpensive (that was why he wanted to use a switcher) PSU for an S-100 system. Consider that he freely admits to knowing relatively little about his requirement. Consider also, that he freely admits knowing little about how to build such a thing. Consider, also, that those who WANT to learn about how to build things have done so by the time they're adults, though the process does go on. My take is that he wants to USE the PSU for an S-100 system, not BUILD one. The fact that he's not ruled it out is simply a product of the fact that he may not have that option. > > For many of us on this list, classic computers are a hobby. We work with > them because we enjoy them. Not because we make money with them (at least > not all the time). > Classic Computers as a hobby includes a vast array of things aside from hand-building components. If one's hobby is fabricating components, which may be closer to my own principal area of interest than Jeff Hellige's, then cost of a transformer kit might not be too much. However, I know some of the list readers are only casually interested in whether or not their computers work, while others wouldn't even want one that doesn't work. I personally have a position somewhere in between, yet still don't endeavor to fabricate components that are (a) not exact replacements for the desired ones, and (b) not in any sense "classic." I'd never use a switcher to power S-100 box, simply because they weren't part of that culture, but that's me. OTOH, I've machined enclosures, heatsinks, etc from solid blocks of metal, just to have them "just so." That doesn't make it unreasonable to wind a transformer, but, I certainly didn't get the impression from Jeff's original post that he was wanting to do anything like that. It's not an issue of cost, though that's probably a factor, but I'd submit that one who isn't interested in building his own switcher because of a shortage of technical know-how as well as interest, (he's interested in the computer, not the components) yet isn't interested in buying a switcher that meets his requirements because of cost, probably isn't interested enough, or probably willing, to design and build a transformer around available wire, cores, etc even if they're presented in kit form. > > And IMHO it is wrong to value time spend on a hobby at anything other > than $0 per hour. You spend that time because you enjoy it. Not to make > money or save money. If you weren't working on classic computers, what > else would you be doing? > It's like fishing ... it won't save money on dinner. > > > freight, and that didn't interest him, even as a parts supply. I do believe he > > has specific needs that he's trying to meet, but I really doubt he's likely to > > roll-his-own transformer, since, though they're expensive, the parts to build > > them still cost more than a ready-built transformer from a surplus house. > > Sure, if you can find a suitable one surplus... > There are lots of other options, yet, Tony, short of scratch-building a transformer, or even building a kit. > > > Marlin P. Jones & associates, www.mpja.com, Mouser Electronics, www.mouser.com, > > among others, certainly HAVE the things. Finding one that's "just right" was > > never easy. Nevertheless, for $50 or so a guy can have a pair of transformers, > > e.g. 8 VAC @ 10 A and 34 V center-tapped, at, say, 2 amps tops, would certianly > > Hnag on... > > Are the S-100 PSU voltages 8V DC and +/-16V DC, or are they what you get > if you rectify 8V AC and 16V AC? I assumed the former, but perhaps I am > wrong. > They are what they say, so your guess was correct. The 8-volt raw supply is regulated on each of the boards to produce the logic supply and, where needed, and it's quite seldom that it's needed, the +/-16 are used for analog or, more commonly, RS-232 supplies, normally bipolar 12. The 8 volt number is there because a 5-volt regulator with a pass transistor needs that much to operate. Using more volts dissipates more watts, however, and benefits nothing. However, if one can get a transformer that has enough 13.6, center-tapped, it could very well work out if one uses the newer low-dropout regulators, e.g. LM330T, even with a pass member, if it's well filtered. There are lots of transformers out there that nearly do the job, some of them would do quite well if the regulators were doctored. There's a 3-terminal replacement for the LM340T-5 that is actually an encapsulated switcher and it would surprise me to learn that it wouldn't save considerably on heat if the input voltage were too high as compared to a linear. That's another option. Something like that would probably work out better for Jeff than having to wind his own transformer, even if the transformer did the job correctly the first time. Jeff hasn't considered all the available options yet, or at least hadn't when the discussion began. From where I sit, however, building a transformer, even from a kit, is a mite farther than Jeff's original post suggests he's willing to go. One thing that would concern me is that he's looking at using a very long backplane, suggesting he's going to populate it with 4K SRAM boards. That will require lots of power. If, OTOH, he uses a 64K DRAM board, instead of the 16 4K boards, he'll save 90% of the power. Of course, it's likely 10-12 of the slots will be empty ... > > > than I am, but winding a transformer in order to build an S-100 supply ... gee > > ... I don't know ... > > I can assure you I wouldn't do it if I could find a suitable transformer > or transformers in the catalogues. But I would do it if it was the only > way to keep a machine running. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 15:18:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <003401c130c7$c89c5bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ... or was it Rich Beaudry that sent the original post ... ??? Dick From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 15:28:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <003a01c130c9$1acbad00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's 6.3 volts * SQRT(2) less two diode losses. If one uses a SCHOTTKY bridge with a really low forward voltage, and uses the low-dropout regulators (LM330T) in place of the LM309's or LM340T-5's, one can use a heater transformer just fine. The empty slots won't need much power and, unless you use 16 of the old 4K SRAM boards, your power requirement will fall within what that 12Amp model can do. One shouldn't try to save on the filter cap's though, and, BTW, and should put a very low value (~0.25-ohm) resistor between the bridge and the filter caps to protect the diodes at turn-on. If there's a real need for lots of power, one can parallel two of these heaters provided the phase is correct. I've got one transformer downstairs that is about he size of half a watermelon, weighs on the order of 35#, and has all the requisite voltages plus a few others I decided I didn't need. I also don't look forward to lifting it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:02 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rich Beaudry wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:53:29 +0100 (BST) > > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > > > >Have you considered winding your own transformer. > > > > Uhhh ... hadn't thought of that! :-) > > > > > In the UK we can buy 'transformer kits'. > > > > Did a quick search of a couple of distributors, but no luck yet ... I'll > > keep looking, though! > > > > >According to my calculator, 6.3V * sqrt(2) = 8.9V or thereabouts. Since > > >the 8V line is unregulated anyway, I would think you could start with a > > >6.3V transformer. Can you really no longer buy valve heater transformers??? > > > > !@$#!@$!!~!!!! > > > > I found a couple of 6.3V transformers, one at 8.8A, one at 12A ... I must be > > going blind... I don't think they'd power my 21-slot backplane, but I do > > have a couple of smaller ones that would probably be just fine... > > > > Rich B. > > If you get one of those, Rich, get it on a returnable basis. Some S-100 > cards are really picky about the voltage that the regulator chip sees > and if not high enough will not function. > > - don > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 15:48:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital References: <20010829.130032.88.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <005c01c130cb$e5918c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well ... it's their stuff ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff L Kaneko" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: california digital > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:46:26 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" > writes: > > >Some of their 20-year-old FDD's are priced right at where they were > >> when new. Do you suppose it's possible they're old inventory? > > Of that, I'm almost certain. They've been sitting on some of this stuff From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 15:53:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital References: <10108292044.ZM23306@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <006e01c130cc$b6c35200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I sold a pair of old Memorex FDD's in very good condition for their age, to a fellow here for $650 each about five years back, and he was happy to get them because they were the only hard-sector (using outer-ring sector holes) drives he could convince himself worked with his client's hardware. I'm sure he octupled his money, too. They went to a nearby government contractor's nuclear materials processing site. They were the drives I salvaged from my old NBI word processor, the 8008 CPU of which now serves as a high-tech Tie Tack, and has for 15 years. If he'd asked me for them, I'd probably have given them to him with my compliments, but he offered me the dough, so I took it ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: Re: california digital > On Aug 29, 19:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sounds like a surplus shop called 'Display Electronics' over here. The > > last advert I saw from them (a couple of months ago) listed 8" floppy > > drives for close to \pounds 500 (no, not \pounds 5.00, which is what they > > tend to sell for at rallies) > > What's more, they've been selling -- or at least advertising -- the *same* > floppies for over 10 years. I imagine they've not sold (m)any :-) > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 15:56:07 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital References: Message-ID: <007401c130cd$06a52640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There is some aging but still very valuable equipment, particularly in the medical arena, e.g. G.E. Cat-Scanners, that use 8" FDD's. Downtime for a day can cost enough to make a hospital keep spare parts on hand and keep a full-time resident repair technician. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Re: california digital > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sounds like a surplus shop called 'Display Electronics' over here. The > > last advert I saw from them (a couple of months ago) listed 8" floppy > > drives for close to \pounds 500 (no, not \pounds 5.00, which is what > > they tend to sell for at rallies) > > Believe it or not, due to their general scarcity from normal market > channels, 8" floppy drives can demand a high price from those who really > need it to keep some old gear that uses one for storage alive. When > you've got an operation that can break down completely due to a single 8" > floppy drive going bad, UKP500 is a small price to pay. > > It's all relative. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 29 16:05:11 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party Message-ID: <00a701c130ce$4c42b180$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Well this is the weekend that I'll try and get the PDP 11/34 running as well as the AS400's in the garage. Anyone who will be in the Ottawa area is welcome to come and help. I'd like to see some signs of life before packing the magnetic media into the basement for the winter. Mike Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 29 16:05:11 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party Message-ID: <000501c130ce$7c2e2640$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Well this is the weekend that I'll try and get the PDP 11/34 running as well as the AS400's in the garage. Anyone who will be in the Ottawa area is welcome to come and help. I'd like to see some signs of life before packing the magnetic media into the basement for the winter. Mike Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 16:17:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: <002e01c130c7$af2be840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <002e01c130c7$af2be840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Well, take it in context. Go back and read the first post from Jeff Hellige. Nope, wasn't me that posted it originally Dick! It was Rich Beaudry. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Aug 29 16:40:54 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 References: <200108292006.f7TK6g400436@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <002901c130d3$4c404e40$6401a8c0@dbnh> > I have a Priam 5250-compatible terminal controller. I'm confused about the terminology here. My understanding is that there is a built-in terminal controller in the AS/400 Advanced 36 Model 236 that is exposed as a female DB25 connector on the back of the unit. Into that a twinax breakout cable needs to be attached that terminates in eight twinax jacks. Into a twinax jack plugs a twinax cable and a terminal plugs into the other end of the twinax cable. Is that correct? I'm assuming that your Priam 5250-compatible device is a terminal with a twinax connector on the back? If so, are you interested in selling it and for how much? Thanks, David From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 29 16:41:02 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator References: Message-ID: <011701c130d3$4d15edc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> These OT things just keep going and going don't they? Fred: > It might help to know a little more about what you are > trying to accomplish... TV Tuner = Demodulator = RF to NTSC. RF in on an "F" jack. In this case I would prefer VHF/UHF on an antenna but Cable would be important sometimes, yes. NTSC composite out on a BNC or RCA jack. Audio on RCA. Digital tuning. DC power preferred, not essential. My video monitor is a modern OT scap flatscreen but it would be neat to be able to use VGA monitors too (A VGA converter is yet another topic) Also I have an Atari/Comodore monitor or two. I would pay $50 for a 10"x10"x2" type deal if it was perfect to the task. A mini one, like 4"x4"x1", readymade, on =<1watt DC power, maybe $150. John A. From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 29 16:41:34 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > > No, that makes it biased in your favour. It is trivial to find cards that > > > > nobody else will guess.... In at least one game of this type (having to > > > > guess something set by another person), the rules are worded so that it > > > > is in the interests of the setter to pick said thing (the machine > > > > configuration in this case) so that 1 or 2 people guess it correctly, but > > > > no so easy that everyone gets it. > > Rather than assemble a machine with my weirdest cards, (which WOULD be an > unfair challenge), I described a machine that was in daily use in my > office (until I closed the office a year ago). That way, I thought that I > DID make it such that a few people could guess them. But so far, you seem > to be the only one. Some of that stuff will be available at VCF, if > anybody is interested. > > > > > Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure, but a contest that nobody can possibly win is not much fun IMHO. > > There's still the possibility of proportional distribution. Since you're > the only one who has even tried, we can split the disks. You've already > won a significant portion of them. IF anybody ever actually comes through > with them! > > To improve the odds slightly: > a major hint (relating to more than one card): > there has never been a parallel (centronics style) printer connected to > the machine, although there could have been. Since that gives away that a > female DB25 is, indeed, a parallel port, then based on what you already > know about the machine, what IS connected there? > > > > > hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? > > Err, since 5.25" floppies are not easy to find any more, and since most > > of use on thls list have at least one machine that uses them, then I > > would guess many people here could use them. > > I bought 3 plastic carrier bags full of bulk-erased RX50 disks a few > > years back and I am darn glad I did. 80 cylinder 5.25" disks are > > particularly hard to find now. > > I'm surprised at the level of problems that you have had with using 360K > (300 Oerstedt) diskettes as 720K (300 Oerstedt) disks, particularly since > a number of manufacturers freely acknowledge that they are chemically the > same, and differ only in testing requirements (If there were NO flaws, > they are the same). Could they really be that close to the edge of > testing specs? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > Not in my experience. I have used generic 5.25" DSDD disks interchangeably for 360/390 and 720 with only the exceptional problem. And that problem was as commonly found making a 360/390 recording as a 720. - don From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 29 17:02:40 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829120552.02fc0650@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: Geoff, if you go to http://www.memoryx.com you can get a replacement chip for $19. That's where I got mine and it works great. g. On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > At 10:39 AM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Of course you'd have to pay them: they have to take a # from > >from their database, update their mfg systems, mail you a > >MAC address label...it's a service ans you should expect to pay! > >IEEE charges about 3KU$ for a range of MAC addresses and entry. > > Hmmm, could it be because they should have coded the HostID into something > OTHER than a NVRAM that they knew would lose it's battery > eventually??? it's just a method to make a few extra bucks to them. > > Of course there's also the fact that Sun is using a location in the NVRAM > that is not in the manufacturers spec so if you get a current rev 48tXX > chip to use in your sun, the OBP(bios) complains about a bad NVRAM chip > :(:(:( ST Microelectronics recently redid the timekeeper chips using a > smaller die, and in doing so, recoded them to operate exactly to what the > published spec has always said.. Sun uses a non-documented location in the > nvram for some of it's power-on tests so that now fails with the > timekeepers that are 100% specification compliant. > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 29 16:05:11 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party Message-ID: <00a701c130ce$4c42b180$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Well this is the weekend that I'll try and get the PDP 11/34 running as well as the AS400's in the garage. Anyone who will be in the Ottawa area is welcome to come and help. I'd like to see some signs of life before packing the magnetic media into the basement for the winter. Mike Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 29 17:14:02 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: DMA Systems Micro Magnum 5/5 ST-5xx References: <004d01c130c6$bf81d7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00b701c130d7$e9b771e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> On Topic, Hooray! I'm looking for the power connection for same. Anyone with one lying around who could describe the PWR-IN? John A. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 17:34:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: <002e01c130c7$af2be840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001901c130da$c47525a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, ... it's hell getting old ... Unfortunately, I figured that out AFTER sending the post with the erroneous reference. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:17 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > >Well, take it in context. Go back and read the first post from Jeff Hellige. > > Nope, wasn't me that posted it originally Dick! It was Rich Beaudry. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 29 17:55:25 2001 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: TMS7040 Message-ID: <1eyws3f.nd5vkt1kzoxw2M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> How can I dump the ROM inside a TMS7040? Does anyone know where I could obtain enough information to emulate a TMS7040? -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:29:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 29, 1 12:08:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/ea16d379/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:37:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 29, 1 12:55:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1997 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/d933425a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:40:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: <004d01c130c6$bf81d7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Aug 29, 1 04:11:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 409 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/3865bacd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:56:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: <003a01c130c9$1acbad00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 29, 1 02:28:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 300 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/2efd10e7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:54:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: <002e01c130c7$af2be840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 29, 1 02:17:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4597 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010829/517e89f3/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 29 18:59:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Message-ID: <004e01c130e8$16f0cbb0$d7799a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Rich Beaudry To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:01 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Hey! I have a complete S100 PS transformer and all plus it has the regulators to run SA801s! It's a complete unit on it own plate from a TEI or similar box. WANT IT???? It's heavy as all get out so shipping is out. Pick up is Framingham or maybe some place where we cross paths. Allison From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Aug 29 18:55:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 In-Reply-To: <002901c130d3$4c404e40$6401a8c0@dbnh> Message-ID: YOure pretty much with it but you need a terminal that can do 5250 emulation at least and put it in that mode. You can get twinaxial connectors and cable (but you need a pin crimper) through Black Box (big bux) or CNA at www.cnaweb.com and other places. One thing to remember on twinax is that the inner conductors are different color of wire. The gold/copper color goes to the insert side with the dot, the silver/aluminum color goes opposite that. On the breakout box you need to use port 0 of the 8 (0-7). I know I mistyped 6 of them but a string on twinax is 8, in series using tees. You can have a string of devices per port in series but each terminal has to have a T from it. Not really hard technology, just have to know the rules in the first place. I've used Decision Data, HP, Shamrock and many other VDT's with no problems on AS/400 twinax. Depending on the revision level that you end up with of OS/400 you might be able to have auto-config come on for other devices other than the master display. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Betz -> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:41 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 -> -> -> > I have a Priam 5250-compatible terminal controller. -> -> I'm confused about the terminology here. -> -> My understanding is that there is a built-in terminal controller in the -> AS/400 Advanced 36 Model 236 that is exposed as a female DB25 -> connector on -> the back of the unit. -> -> Into that a twinax breakout cable needs to be attached that terminates in -> eight twinax jacks. -> -> Into a twinax jack plugs a twinax cable and a terminal plugs -> into the other -> end of the twinax cable. -> -> Is that correct? -> -> I'm assuming that your Priam 5250-compatible device is a terminal with a -> twinax connector on the back? If so, are you interested in selling it and -> for how much? -> -> Thanks, -> David -> -> From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 19:02:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <001901c130e7$0b6a9ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's a reasonable alternative, but provides less power, since it only rectifies half the available cycles, so q/t is lower, though not halved. Ripple is likely to increase, though. In any case, it's as I often say, "Where there's a will, there's mourners..." If he really wants to do this, a little calculation will tell him how much power he needs, a little more calculation will tell him which of the methods I previously mentioned will be needed in order to reach his goal, and a meter on the transformer when it's loaded with an appropriate load resistor, will tell him what the AC voltage he has to work with under full load is. Different manufacturers interpret that differently, though I suspect that valve heaters are pretty similar. If he has a 6.3 volt output at full load, he'll certainly be able to do the job with a schottky bridge and a series resistor, and may not even have to replace the classic regulators with a low-dropout replacement. Moreover, since it's unlikely he'll be operating at the full load current, or anywhere near it, he'll probably have on the order of 5-10% headroom without objectionable ripple if his filters are large enough. I've got one system with 800K microfarads at 10 working volts as its filter, with just such a low-voltage transformer. The low voltage is high enough to feed the regulators, yet low enough that heat isn't a problem. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:56 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > > > It's 6.3 volts * SQRT(2) less two diode losses. If one uses a SCHOTTKY bridge > > Alternatively, if you use a centre-tapped 12.6V winding (or maybe 2 6.3V > windings in series) you can use the 2-diode 'biphase' rectifier circuit > and have than output of 6.3 * sqrt(2) - _one_ diode drop. > a resonable alternative, though that wasn't on his list. > > -tony > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 29 19:17:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have an old Sony U-Matic with Separate Tuner and Separate Monitor I've been meaning to fix. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > So am I. Well, apart from non-VHS VCRs, like the pair of Philips V2000 > machines that I must get onto the bench soon, and that little portable > U-matic sitting next to me. Those are worth spending time/money on. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 19:25:32 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Sounds GREAT! > > I assume that _I_ win the 300 5.25" floppies if nobody can correctly name > > all of the connectors on the back of the most obscure machine that I can > > come up with! On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > No, that makes it biased in your favour. It is trivial to find cards that > nobody else will guess.... In at least one game of this type (having to > guess something set by another person), the rules are worded so that it > is in the interests of the setter to pick said thing (the machine > configuration in this case) so that 1 or 2 people guess it correctly, but > no so easy that everyone gets it. OK Maybe I should just split the disks with Tony, Who's providing them? Are they hard sectored or soft? > > One of my 286 machines had one board DC37 female (NOT drive related) > Hmmm.. I assume 'drive' includes tape drives (I've seen DC37s used for > QIC32, etc). > Maybe a multi-port serial card. > > one board DE9 female plus DB25 female, NOT video nor parallel > > HINT: the two above boards were separate boards from different > > manufacturers, but the DC37 and DB25 were cabled to two inputs of a switch > > box. > I've seen at least one _odd_ serial card (I think it was Z8530-based) > with that pair of connectors. To use that hint, start by listing things that use both DB25s and use DC37s, That machine (not currently in use) did not have any serial ports,and was used for desktop publishing and occasional disk format conversion. > > 50 pin dual row header male > QIC tape? SCSI? Custom TTL level I/O? I've even seen a pertec tape > controller card with a single 50 pin header on it (and a special cable to > the tape drive, of course). SCSI, driving the floptical > > DB25 female > I asusme this is not printer. Maybe SCSI? printer port, but not connected to a printer. driving a MicroSolutions Backpack 2.8M > > > DC37 female > > DC37 female > External floppies? Tape drive? floppies. Hard to say what's internal v external on a machine with no top half of the case, and stuff pile on top, such as second power supply and some floppies. > > DE9 female, NOT CGA, nor MDA, nor EGA, nor VGA, nor PGA > You've not said 'not video' here, so I am going to guess that it's either > that NEC form of VGA that used a DE9, or maybe some strange high-res mono > video (Signma made something like this I think) Yes. Wyse 700/Amdek 1280 1280 x 800 B&W video, > > DE9 female, NOT video > There was a card that gave the PC an Apple Mac-like 9 pin female serial > port (you could use it to connect the PC to an Appletalk network). Maybe > that. > Or a bus mouse card? Bus mouse. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 19:29:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:01 2005 Subject: Answers (was: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > To improve the odds slightly: > > a major hint (relating to more than one card): > > there has never been a parallel (centronics style) printer connected to > > the machine, although there could have been. Since that gives away that a > > female DB25 is, indeed, a parallel port, then based on what you already > > know about the machine, what IS connected there? On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > If it was my machine I would say something like a PROM programmer or > PAL/GAL programmer, or something like that. But you said this was an I had two other machines on the next table over from it that had PROM programmers (One was a "Sunshine", I don't remember what the other one was). > office machine (not a lab machine) so I guess it's not that. NO, I said that it was used IN my office. That wouldn't make my scope or soldering stuff "office equipment" either. It was used for desktop publishing and some disk format conversion. I had some other machines across the room that WERE office (telephone log, shipping, accounting, etc.) To make use of the first hint (DB25 and DC37 cabled to a switch box), you would have to consider what kinds of things used DB25 and DC37 interchangeably. There was no parallel printer. But to do desktop publishing, there would usually be a printer. The first two cards were both controllers for CX laser printer. One was a JLaser Plus, which used a DB25 female cabled to the CX engine (in this case through a switch box), and had a DE9 female for scanner. I don't remember for sure what the other laser printer controller was - maybe an Eiconscript. The other female DB25 (parallel) was used for a MicroSolutions "Backpack" parallel port 2.8M floppy. The 50 pin dual row header was, as you had guessed, SCSI. It was used for a floptical (1.4M/20M floppy) > If the DE9 that's not MDA/CGA/EGA/PGC is some high-res mono video then You were right. It was a Wyse 700/Amdek 1280 (1280 x 800 B&W video) The other DE9 female was, as you had guessed, bus mouse. > maybe you have a scanner connected here. Had a Canon IX12 connected for a while to the Jlaser Plus, but it never worked very well. > Or I gueesed you had at least one tape controller. So maybe you have some > parallel port storage device (tape streamer, Zip drive, etc) No permanently connected tape. Occasionally I would connect an Irwin tape in place of one of the floppies. > I think so. When 80 cylinder disks were in common use, then it made sense > for manufacturers to make only one type of disk, which was > 80-cylinder-capable. When the only sort of DD disks that were commonly > used were the 40 cylinder '360K' ones, then I guess manufacturers could > get away with only making disks specified for that use, and they could > make slightly poorer and cheaper disks as a result. If anybody ever comes up with the prize, then you can have most or all of the 80 cyl spec'ed 300 Oerstedts. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 19:31:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <001f01c130eb$2e5429c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> comments inline: Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > > > Winding a transformer is not a way to save money if you value your time at > > > > 50-cents per hour. I offered to ship him a complete S-100 mainframe for $5 > > + > > > > > > You've made this sort of comment before, and I still can't understand it... > > > > > Well, take it in context. Go back and read the first post from Jeff Hellige. > > Sure. > What I meant here (and it wasn't Jeff, but I said that already), was that the original post contained distinct references to both a moderate aversion to building what he could buy, and to spending too much money. That's what started me down this road. > > It's reasonable for the original poster (whoever it was) to say that he > doesn't want to spend the time winding a transformer and would rather buy > a PSU. > > But that's not the same thing as never wanting to spend the time winding > a transformer because you somehow put a financial value on the time spent > on hobbies. It is that last part that I have problems accepting. > No, it's not, and I didn't mean that doing such a thing is not worth the effort or investment. I simply meant that I didn't think it met the original poster's model. > > [...] > > > > For many of us on this list, classic computers are a hobby. We work with > > > them because we enjoy them. Not because we make money with them (at least > > > not all the time). > > > > > Classic Computers as a hobby includes a vast array of things aside from > > hand-building components. If one's hobby is fabricating components, which may > > Of course... > > FWIW, I don't particularly enjoy winding transformers. I have done it. If > I can buy a suitable transformer off the shelf, you can bet I'd do that. > > But in just about every hobby there are going to be aspects of it that > you don't particularly enjoy, but which you have to do anyway. The > enjoyment you get when the machine finally works, and the enjoyment you > get from using it outweigh the bits you don't enjoy doing. > > [...] > > > sense "classic." I'd never use a switcher to power S-100 box, simply because > > they weren't part of that culture, but that's me. OTOH, I've machined > > Actually, that wouldn't bother me too much. Well, unless I was restoring > a name-brand S100 system (whatever that really means) when I would want > to keep it original. If I was making a new system now that happened to > use some old S100 cards from the junk box, then I would have no problem > using an SMPSU. > > The practical reason for not doing so is that 8V SMPSUs are not at all > easy to find, as we've all heard by now. > > One thing I certainly wouldn't do is bypass the regulators on the cards > and supply 5V (and +/-12V) to the bus. The reason is that if those cards > ever ended up in a normal S100 backplane, you'd get a lot of magic smoke > leaking out. > > > enclosures, heatsinks, etc from solid blocks of metal, just to have them "just > > so." > > As have I on occasions. I've certainly made a lot of > spacers/screwposts/terminal pins, etc from metal rod. Because the exact > part I want is not listed in any catalogue. > > > > > That doesn't make it unreasonable to wind a transformer, but, I certainly didn't > > get the impression from Jeff's original post that he was wanting to do anything > > OK. I was simply suggesting that _a_ way to get a transformer was to wind > it yourself, and that if you use the kits it's not too hard. The primary > windings are pre-wound, so you don't have any HV insulation problems to > worry about. > > > like that. It's not an issue of cost, though that's probably a factor, but I'd > > submit that one who isn't interested in building his own switcher because of a > > I would not recomend that anyone who can't design and build linear PSUs > attempts to build a switcher from scratch. It's a lot harder. > > > > And IMHO it is wrong to value time spend on a hobby at anything other > > > than $0 per hour. You spend that time because you enjoy it. Not to make > > > money or save money. If you weren't working on classic computers, what > > > else would you be doing? > > > > > It's like fishing ... it won't save money on dinner. > > Exactly! > > [...] > > > > Hnag on... > > > > > > Are the S-100 PSU voltages 8V DC and +/-16V DC, or are they what you get > > > if you rectify 8V AC and 16V AC? I assumed the former, but perhaps I am > > > wrong. > > > > > They are what they say, so your guess was correct. The 8-volt raw supply is > > regulated on each of the boards to produce the logic supply and, where needed, > > Yes, that's what all the S100 schematics I've seen show... > > [...] > > > were doctored. There's a 3-terminal replacement for the LM340T-5 that is > > actually an encapsulated switcher and it would surprise me to learn that it > > wouldn't save considerably on heat if the input voltage were too high as > > compared to a linear. That's another option. > > Again, if I was making an S100 system, I'd want to be able to use any > S100 cards without modification. Which would mean having the +8V line > high enough that any 3 terminal linear regualtor would work. I'd not want > to have to replace regulators on every card I wanted to try. > I agree. However, sometimes compromises are necessary. The SCHOTTKY rectifier trip would probably meet the 8V spec if the full load voltage of the transformer is 10% down from the no-load voltage, however, since the 6.3 * SQRT(2) - 0.5 = 8.3 or so at full load and full load is unlikely to occur. A lot depends on what the numbers stamped on the transformer really mean. There are, BTW, some pretty interesting things one could do to a PC PSU to increase the output on the 5 volt supply. It's risky, of course, because the capacitors are designed for a 5-volt supply, but, perhaps with an extra turn on the secondary of the main transformer, and a tweak of the output voltage, one could squeeze 8 volts out of the thing without running up to the limits. The consequence would be a proportional increase on the complementary 12Volt outputs. That's where you might wonder about the capacitor voltages, since it will be as much as 20 volts. I've got some commercial linear S-100 supplies that provide 21 volts on what should be +/-16 volts. That suggests it's survivable at the S-100 end. > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 19:33:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: <004e01c130e8$16f0cbb0$d7799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002501c130eb$539e0fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's the sad thing about S-100 supplies ... they're always HEAVY! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:59 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Beaudry > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! > > > Hey! I have a complete S100 PS transformer and all plus it has > the regulators to run SA801s! It's a complete unit on it own plate > from a TEI or similar box. WANT IT???? It's heavy as all get > out so shipping is out. Pick up is Framingham or maybe some > place where we cross paths. > > Allison > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 29 19:44:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: VERY old FOCAL snippets and programs References: Message-ID: <000501c130ec$f2d5d680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've just run onto (with the aid of a friend) some FOCAL code, if anybody would like to look at it. I'm working on getting that FOCAL interpreter for the 6502, specifically the APPLE][ running APEX, in machine readable form, but ran into these bits of FOCAL source code for FOCAL-65, which was patterned after DEC FOCAL. Email me and I'll send you the ZIP file containing them. Dick From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 29 01:40:36 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: DEC rack header plates In-Reply-To: <20010828163913.X2395-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20010828163913.X2395-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <40486.210.138.200.5.999067236.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have two of these header plates, one blank and one with the text, which contains the 'manufactured in Galway, Ireland' phrase. I have also a PDP-8 blank plate (yellow/brown). I prefer to swap them for at one header plate with the text 'manufacured in Massachusetts'. Ed > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: >> >> Anybody know a source of DEC rack header panels (the maroon/red ones) >> with or without logo, or for the black "cover panels"? I've got a >> maroon/red pdp11 header panel, and a "blank" maroon/red one, but not >> the black panels to cover the rest of the cabinet.. > > I would like to know too. I've got sufficient black filler panels (I > think), but I need the maroon/red panels (one with logo and one > without). > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 29 20:18:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Anyone know where... Message-ID: Anyone know where I might be able to buy brand new 8" floppies? Peace... Sridhar From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Aug 29 20:34:41 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party References: <00a701c130ce$4c42b180$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <008d01c130f4$22a867e0$6401a8c0@dbnh> You have AS400s? Do you happen to have an extra breakout cable? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: PDP 11/34 work party > Well this is the weekend that I'll try and get the PDP 11/34 running > as well as the AS400's in the garage. > > Anyone who will be in the Ottawa area is welcome to come and help. > I'd like to see some signs of life before packing the magnetic media > into the basement for the winter. > > > Mike > > Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 20:36:42 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Anyone know where... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Anyone know where I might be able to buy brand new 8" floppies? I'm pretty sure that I have a few boxes amonst the stuff to peddle at VCF, as well as some 8" alignment disks. How many do you need? Which ones do you need? (SS v DS have different placement of index hole, etc.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 20:42:50 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: <3B8BE6C7.1090805@olf.com> Message-ID: <311.642T2500T1625849optimus@canit.se> Ram Meenakshisundaram skrev: >Not to burst Rich's bubble, but you can get brand-new TI RF Modulators >for $1.00 plus shipping. Is it just me, or did TI put the wrong gender/connector on their RF modulators? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 20:54:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <752.642T1350T1745439optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 mjsnodgr@rockwellcollins.com wrote: >> Sounds like you've discovered the classiccmp version of the "guess the >> number of pennies in the jar and win $100" game. A grand prize of 300 >> 5.25" floppies goes to the person who can correctly name all the connectors >> on the back of the most obscure machine that Fred can come up with. >Sounds GREAT! >I assume that _I_ win the 300 5.25" floppies if nobody can correctly name >all of the connectors on the back of the most obscure machine that I can >come up with! Actually, I think that "nbame that board/cable" should be an obvious event at any VCF. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 20:57:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <849.642T700T1774153optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> DE9 female, NOT CGA, nor MDA, nor EGA, nor VGA, nor PGA >You've not said 'not video' here, so I am going to guess that it's either >that NEC form of VGA that used a DE9, or maybe some strange high-res mono >video (Signma made something like this I think) He said "nor VGA", didn't he? It's true that Sigma have used D9 on their monitors, though. It's been a while since I looked at a Sigma card, though. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 20:40:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Last week's finds Message-ID: <4455.642T850T1604391optimus@canit.se> This last week's been busy. I've finally found my own VAX system, a VAXstation 3100. Hardly state of the art, but at least it's got graphics and ethernet. The 'station has got two RZ23 (100 MB) drives and a floppy drive mounted internally. I also got some external cases, the markings seem to imply that they contain VMS. VMS is one OS which I've never, ever run, which is interesting. But what about breaking into this system? Is there any trick to forced entry into VMS, and what are you to do once you're inside? Any pointers for a VAX newbie? I also salvaged three monitors for the VAX. One 21" DEC, another 16/17", and a 16" Eizo 9070S, which unfortunately is broken, but the error seems to be a documented case, so I'll have a go at fixing it. The Eizo is the top dog, since it's a digital/analogue multisync (or Flexscan in Eizo language), unfortunately, it will only sync down to 20 KHz. Unfortunately, while I was loading the screens inside the bulding, some bastard walked off with the 17" DEC. Bloody idiot, what's he going to do with a 1989 vintage sync-on-green fix-frequency screen? Fortunately, I found an identical screen today. I'll have to try it out once it's dry. I also found a DEC drawing tablet. Plugs into the DEC mini-DIN-6 mouse port. Unfortunately it's got no pen or puck. There is no plug for the drawing instrument, so I suppose it's some kind of magnetic device. Anyone know some kind of replacement? The unit is called the VSXXX-AB. I found some ARCnet equipment, including two Thomas-Conrad 16-port active hubs. Another big haul was a motherlode of retired Luxor equipment. I grabbed four ABC806 units (flattish desktop boxes made out of a lot of metal), along with four keyboards. The keyboards were three different models. Two were more or less the same as the ABC800 keyboard, only in a stand-alone enclosure. One was the smaller, numerical-less unit, and one was a Facit-made one with a lot of keys (such as a very odd tilting arrow key) and LEDs. It also had a D15 at one end. I suspect that this keyboard was designed for the ABC1600, and the mouse would plug into the D15. Besides, the '806es, I found an ABC16, which is a rare PC-compatibility unit for the ABC series, mounted in an ABC806 enclosure. I also grabbed one or two dual 5?" drives (I can't recall the number right now, but it's not the ABC838), an ABC-bus expansion enclosure (the diskdrives were mounted in the same kind of box), and an absolutely hulking enclosure with dual 8" drives and ABC-bus backplane. Besides that, I had to leave about as much stuff behind. Most of it is at a friend's house, so I haven't been able to test it much. I suspect that some part of my monitor is dead, though. It will power up an '806 (I can determine that by the beeping), but there is no image. It could be a cable issue, though. This particular cable is the one with the "Stenmark switch", designed for the monitors which doubled as TV receivers. Unfortunately, they seemed to have eliminated all the software, or perhaps they're still running parts of the system. If you want to have a look at some of the systems I'm talking about, have a look at this site: http://user.tninet.se/~lmx072e/abc800/abc800_pics.htm I've found two pretty little terminals. One is called the "Datascreen" or "Compuscreen", IIRC, and is an integrated unit, seemingly from the late seventines. Looks a bit like a sleeker version of a PET or a Superbrain. The other one is a TECO VA-120, and I absolutely adore it! It's a sleek design with the intelligence fit into the foot and a very spacy look. Unfortunately, the display makes a squealing sound, though the keyboard seems to indicate that the unit works otherwise. The pitch of the squeal may be calibrated through the V.HOLD pot in the back. What do you do with a unit like this? At the fleamarket, I bought a Sanyo Sanword Mini-J, which is a late- eighties/early nineties Japanese word processing machine with built-in printer. The printer doesn't seem to work for me, but the wordpro is good enough in itself, what with the sad state of Japanese wordpros for the Amiga. =) I've also got hold of a Spectrum, rehoused into sa rather amateurish case with a mechanical keyboard. The case could have been done by anyone with a piece of sheet metal and a pincer. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 21:18:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Slightly OT, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <936.642T1800T1985601optimus@canit.se> Absurdly Obtuse skrev: >...if anyone will know, it will be one of you. >Using one of the accelerator boards as a template, would it be too >difficult to design a 68060 accelerator board for a 68040 NeXT? I guess a >big part of this question is: how different is the architecture of the >68060 to that of the 68040? The 68060 has lost some instructions present in the 68040, so theuy aren't all that similar. You'd have to add an emulation library for the lost instructions, and perhaps a compiler back-end if you want to compile programs to run as fast as possible. OTOH, this may be adapted from GNU sources. Then there's the matter of 68060 running at different voltages, but that's no software matter. But if we ignore the fact that designing a 68060 isn't something you usually do in wire-wrap, a lot of software will crash due to unimplemented instructions. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer hackers do it all night long. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 20:57:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <325.642T2200T1775605optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >Look, Fred can HAVE 300 5.25" floppies even if he loses! I mean, who the >hell really WANTS 300 5.25" floppies anyway!? C64 warez traders? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet sua.ath.cx, port 42512. From optimus at canit.se Wed Aug 29 21:04:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: california digital In-Reply-To: <200108290326.WAA25396@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <209.642T250T1844215optimus@canit.se> Lawrence LeMay skrev: >They have DEC backplanes, 4 slot dual width, for $9.00 What's a DEC backplane? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 29 21:24:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Message-ID: <007501c130fa$fd7f9a40$d7799a8d@ajp166> Well, with all the falderall try this. find a 6.3vac core with an output current that is adaquate. By examination, determine the turns/Volt for the secondary. method B: wind 5 turns over the core and see what the votage is. divide by 5 to get turns/volt. Divide that number into 1.7, that the additional voltage you need. Add those turns. That was the exact method used to correct the early version Altair with the undersized transformer. FYI, it needed 11 more turns of #16 to do the trick. No need to disassemble or "rewind". Allison From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 29 21:10:14 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: TMS7040 In-Reply-To: <1eyws3f.nd5vkt1kzoxw2M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010829190940.00c44100@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 03:55 PM 8/29/01 -0700, you wrote: >How can I dump the ROM inside a TMS7040? > >Does anyone know where I could obtain enough information to emulate a >TMS7040? Are you perhaps writing an emulator for a TI-74 computer? I may be able to help. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From vance at ikickass.org Wed Aug 29 21:19:31 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Anyone know where... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am not sure what kind I need. I can take a look. They are going to be for an IBM Series/1, if that helps any. I can use as many as you can offload. I won't be coming to VCF though, as I am an East Coastie. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > Anyone know where I might be able to buy brand new 8" floppies? > > I'm pretty sure that I have a few boxes amonst the stuff to peddle at VCF, > as well as some 8" alignment disks. > > How many do you need? > Which ones do you need? (SS v DS have different placement of index hole, > etc.) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu Wed Aug 29 21:39:10 2001 From: brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Anyone know where... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5240488.999124750@[0.0.0.0]> --On Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:18 PM -0400 Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Anyone know where I might be able to buy brand new 8" floppies? Good old California Digital has them as well as Athana . -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Milton S. Eisenhower Library The Johns Hopkins University brian@sigh.mse.jhu.edu From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Aug 29 21:50:38 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Sorry Message-ID: <3B8D63AE.17516.11BDC0E9@localhost> Sorry about this, list, but I've just moved out to my retirement home and I really need every cent I can gather, so I sold a Borsky S1000 handbook and a PDP8 maintenance manual without offering it to the list. Once I get some of my multitude of boxes unpacked, I will be offering many other duplicates and non-essential things. I'm sure there is much that would not excite much interest on EPay but would be of interest to the list. I'll keep you posted. ciao Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From CELang at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 29 22:26:22 2001 From: CELang at worldnet.att.net (CELang) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Anyone know where... Message-ID: <000801c13103$947f05e0$53824b0c@oemcomputer> http://www.plumresources.com A quick search turned them up here. Craig -----Original Message----- From: Absurdly Obtuse To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: Anyone know where... > >Anyone know where I might be able to buy brand new 8" floppies? > >Peace... Sridhar > > From vaxman at qwest.net Wed Aug 29 22:59:45 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Sorry In-Reply-To: <3B8D63AE.17516.11BDC0E9@localhost> Message-ID: Hi, If you have any VAX 11/7xx documentation, I'm interested in buying it. Let me know what you have and how much you want for it... Thanks, clint PS I only get to read my email once a day, so stuff that is offered on the list is usually snapped up within seconds :( I'm even willing to pay a premium for documentation I don't have :) On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Sorry about this, list, but I've just moved out to my retirement home and > I really need every cent I can gather, so I sold a Borsky S1000 handbook > and a PDP8 maintenance manual without offering it to the list. Once I > get some of my multitude of boxes unpacked, I will be offering many other > duplicates and non-essential things. I'm sure there is much that would not > excite much interest on EPay but would be of interest to the list. I'll keep > you posted. > > ciao Lawrence > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net > > From technos at nerdland.org Wed Aug 29 23:26:11 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: california digital Message-ID: <01C130EA.5F9A9010.technos@nerdland.org> On Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:09 PM, Sellam Ismail [SMTP:foo@siconic.com] wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sounds like a surplus shop called 'Display Electronics' over here. > > The > > last advert I saw from them (a couple of months ago) listed 8" > > floppy > > drives for close to \pounds 500 (no, not \pounds 5.00, which is > > what > > they tend to sell for at rallies) > > Believe it or not, due to their general scarcity from normal market > channels, 8" floppy drives can demand a high price from those who > really > need it to keep some old gear that uses one for storage alive. When > you've got an operation that can break down completely due to a single > 8" > floppy drive going bad, UKP500 is a small price to pay. > There are companies that make them *new*. They're used in some applications where radioactivity is a concern. I remember seeing an invoice for one (went in some medical equipment) that priced them at $170. Jim From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 29 23:25:12 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Tony, try this ;>) Message-ID: <20010830044003.EDFQ28083.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Dick Erlacher wrote: > > Winding a transformer is not a way to save money if you value your time at > > 50-cents per hour. I offered to ship him a complete S-100 mainframe for $5 + Tony Duell replied: > You've made this sort of comment before, and I still can't understand it... > > For many of us on this list, classic computers are a hobby. We work with > them because we enjoy them. Not because we make money with them (at least > not all the time). > > And IMHO it is wrong to value time spend on a hobby at anything other > than $0 per hour. You spend that time because you enjoy it. Not to make > money or save money. If you weren't working on classic computers, what > else would you be doing? Most of us are working stiffs, Tony. Our free time is limited. I figure it this way: an hour of my free time is worth at least twice as much as I earn per hour, since I have fewer of those "free" hours (supply and demand). If I chased down the parts and rolled-my-own transformer, it could easily consume $1000 of my free time. If I want to use or revive an old computer it's "cheaper" for me to buy off-the-shelf components because this doesn't burn up a lot of time I could be spending actually *using* said computer. Same thing applies to swapping out a serial board vs. replacing the UART: boards are cheap and plentiful, swapping the UART is time-consuming. If I just "loved" winding transformers my viewpoint might be different, but I don't ;>) > I can assure you I wouldn't do it if I could find a suitable transformer > or transformers in the catalogues. But I would do it if it was the only > way to keep a machine running. Sure, because a no-longer-available item is, literally, priceless -- it cannot be bought for any price, so a big expenditure of free time is justified if the item in question can be recreated. I hope some of this makes sense to you. Glen 0/0 From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Aug 29 23:46:11 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: PC/AT memory boards Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010829213803.02726408@pop.azstarnet.com> I've got an old genuine IBM AT (8 MHz) that has a couple of 16bit mystery boards in it... 1) Marked 55x3543, google says 0.5 to 3 MB board. It has a 16450 on it, a total of 12 30 pin simms, a male DB9 (okay, I guess it's a DE9) and a female DB25. I assumed it was a serial port and parallel port but it doesn't show up as such in the machine. Also since these appear to be 256K simms I expected the machine to boot with 2MB of RAM or more but it only came up as 1 MB. I'm suspecting it's configured wrong or there's a conflict but of course I don't have any docs... anyone? 2) Another memory board, 18 256Kbit chips, marked EV159 and has a big EVEREX chip on it. Google says 3 MB expansion board, same questions. I assume this motherboard has 512K on it, so... this board might be okay but I'd like to know what the switch settings are in case I decide to add memory to it (anyone know a cheap source of 41256s? Any help (docs especially) would be appreciated.... Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Aug 29 23:54:41 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Sorry Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660F8@exc-reo1> > If you have any VAX 11/7xx documentation, I'm interested in buying it. > Let me know what you have and how much you want for it... Over at http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm you will eventually find about six or so of the VAX-11/780 related technical manuals. (They have them already, you just need to wait until they get around to putting them online). Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Aug 30 00:08:39 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: TMS7040 Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660F9@exc-reo1> > > How can I dump the ROM inside a TMS7040? > > Does anyone know where I could obtain enough information to emulate a > TMS7040? www.freetradezone.com has some information but it seems to start at section 4 of the manual and the instruction set is in section 3. Antonio From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 30 01:14:10 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: DMA Systems Micro Magnum 5/5 ST-5xx References: <004d01c130c6$bf81d7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00b701c130d7$e9b771e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B8DD9B2.3D56C7EC@rain.org> When DMA Systems went under, Ricoh was the company that bought them. The removeable drives that DMA made (I made some of the prototype boards for the original design) used a standard PC power connector. If the board you have is different, you might check with Ricoh. John Allain wrote: > > On Topic, Hooray+ACE- > > I'm looking for the power connection for same. > Anyone with one lying around who could describe > the PWR-IN? > > John A. From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Aug 30 01:29:28 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829120552.02fc0650@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829232718.03cf0c90@mail.zipcon.net> I have a supply of the ones that work "just in case" plus as I get ones that die I am refitting them with a replaceable battery :) so they should last a good long time :) it just kinda frosted me that Sun cut corners and used non-documented addresses/registers in the timekeepers, and now the new ones fail, and sun has absolutely NO plans to fix their bios/OBP, for any of their machines (including those that are still supported) :( At 03:02 PM 8/29/01 -0700, you wrote: >Geoff, if you go to http://www.memoryx.com you can get a replacement chip >for $19. That's where I got mine and it works great. From StormErage at aol.com Thu Aug 30 02:05:35 2001 From: StormErage at aol.com (StormErage@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s) Message-ID: I own a Televideo 803 system (not a portable). I have the complete system with manuals, power cords, software, etc - even one OLD game called "mortar". I bought the system when it was new back in the early 1980's. Still runs like it always did - I have it in an air conditioned storage unit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010830/04144bf2/attachment.html From hans at Huebner.ORG Thu Aug 30 02:45:31 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Last week's finds In-Reply-To: <4455.642T850T1604391optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 30 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > [VAXStation 3100] But what about breaking into this system? Is there any > trick to forced entry into VMS, and what are you to do once you're inside? > Any pointers for a VAX newbie? You need to perform a conversational boot and then change the password of the SYSTEM account. http://www.savilltech.com/vmsfaq.html#A16 describes the easy way, which sometimes does not work. The complete procedures are outlined in the OpenVMS System Manager's Manual: http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ssb71/6017/6017p007.htm -Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 30 06:15:24 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256C7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> I used to use these at a former orkplace... a cow-orker ended up with a few, and is down to the last one, which he's kindly holding for me... -dq -----Original Message----- From: StormErage@aol.com [mailto:StormErage@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 3:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s) I own a Televideo 803 system (not a portable). I have the complete system with manuals, power cords, software, etc - even one OLD game called "mortar". I bought the system when it was new back in the early 1980's. Still runs like it always did - I have it in an air conditioned storage unit. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 30 06:35:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Just curious about injection molding or casting Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256C9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yes, I know it's nice to be able to make replacement parts (one day > > there will be no more spares), which is why I intend to investigate > > injection moulding at home. > > If only we had Star Trek's replicators! > > I'd say that personal manufacturing is bound only to get easier and less > expensive. Some day, even before the advent of replicators, it will be > feasible and cheap to build most any replacement part. I would expect > that to have a revolutionary effect on many fields of old stuff > collecting. Within another ten years, surplus stereolithography machines (and other "Santa Claus" machines) will be available to us. Good ones go for $250k, but a friend of mine and I thought we could engineer one to sell for about $25k, and others are likely having the same idea... For those you you who aren't familiar with these, think of them as "3d plotters". Some carve away at a block of material until the object of desire remains; others deposit tiny beads of metal that are sintered (?) together; my favorite uses a polymer fluid and a UV laser; the laser draws a cross-section on the fluid, which hardens the polymer; a tray under the first cross-section lowers slightly, the laser draws the next cross-section, and so on, until you have The Object. I think another spews plastic beads in a fashion similar to the sintered metal. Anyone have any hands-on experience with them? I could watch, but they wouldn't let me touch... ;-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Aug 30 06:36:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: SemiOT: Mourning for Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256CA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >> There are parties in all of Scandinavia each year, as well as Poland and > >> France. Don't know about the scene beyond there. > > >Ok... what was throwing me for a loop here, was that you seemed surprised > >that I was unaware of them, but they turn out to be something we don't > >have around here, so my absence of familiarity shouldn't be such a > >surprise... > > Are you certain? It might just be a PAL/NTSC thing. No, we know about PAL, we just choose not to use it.... ;-) -dq From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 30 09:04:48 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829232718.03cf0c90@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: > I have a supply of the ones that work "just in case" plus as I get ones > that die I am refitting them with a replaceable battery :) so they should > last a good long time :) it just kinda frosted me that Sun cut corners and > used non-documented addresses/registers in the timekeepers, and now the new > ones fail, and sun has absolutely NO plans to fix their bios/OBP, for any > of their machines (including those that are still supported) :( > Well you figure for EOL hardware, Sun has no reason to fix the problem. It very well may have been a newbie engineer mistake that wasn't caught in time. The end result is that it's not worth it to them to fix the error. I would be surprised if they didn't eventually fix it for new design hardware. I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead to two very important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad tracks far outnumber the good ones. :) g. From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 30 09:03:49 2001 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: TMS7040 In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470660F9@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <1eyxy0d.113jrirxlvus6M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> > > > > How can I dump the ROM inside a TMS7040? > > > > Does anyone know where I could obtain enough information to emulate a > > TMS7040? > > www.freetradezone.com has some information > but it seems to start at section 4 of the > manual and the instruction set is in > section 3. Thanks, got it. Anybody out there interested in selling their TMS7040 manual? -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Thu Aug 30 09:29:35 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Looking of Digital Alpha CPU/Motherboard Message-ID: <00cd01c13160$33e87ba0$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Hi all, I acquired a small lot of Alpha 166 and 233MHz CPUs. Unfortunately, the AXPpci 33 motherboard I have does not work with the Alpha 21164-AA CPU I found in the box of Alpha CPUs sent to me. Does anyone know which DEC motherboards work with the Digital Alpha 233MHz 21164-AA CPU? I tried looking for information on the net, but found very few pointers. Jacek Artymiak -- OnetKomunikator - porozumiesz sie z innymi [ http://ok.onet.pl/instaluj.html ] From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 30 09:41:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: california digital References: <01C130EA.5F9A9010.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <002b01c13165$a3e471c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That 500 UKP is not far off the price that some of these things brought when they were in full production. I remember feeling VERY happy when I got a pair of Mitsubishi 2894's for $480 each, plus shipping. That was a substantial reduction from the normal price in 1981. The prices dipped somewhat after the adoption of 5-1/4" HD diskettes in the PC, (1984) but I've never seen new drives listed at much below the $400 mark for SS and $475 for DS drives. It was the high volume of the PC that drove the FDD's down to where they could be discarded rather than repaired when you suspected they were defective. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Tuck" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:26 PM Subject: RE: california digital > On Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:09 PM, Sellam Ismail > [SMTP:foo@siconic.com] wrote: > > > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Sounds like a surplus shop called 'Display Electronics' over here. > > > The > > > last advert I saw from them (a couple of months ago) listed 8" > > > floppy > > > drives for close to \pounds 500 (no, not \pounds 5.00, which is > > > what > > > they tend to sell for at rallies) > > > > Believe it or not, due to their general scarcity from normal market > > channels, 8" floppy drives can demand a high price from those who > > really > > need it to keep some old gear that uses one for storage alive. When > > you've got an operation that can break down completely due to a > single > > 8" > > floppy drive going bad, UKP500 is a small price to pay. > > > > There are companies that make them *new*. They're used in some > applications where radioactivity is a concern. I remember seeing an > invoice for one (went in some medical equipment) that priced them > at $170. > > Jim > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 30 10:13:15 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829232718.03cf0c90@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010830080722.01de30a0@209.185.79.193> >Well you figure for EOL hardware, Sun has no reason to fix the >problem. It very well may have been a newbie engineer mistake that wasn't >caught in time. The end result is that it's not worth it to them to fix >the error. I would be surprised if they didn't eventually fix it for new >design hardware. Just for the record, when I found out about the NVRAM in an SS1 (which I did when my new kernel left the NVRAM writable and over wrote it leaving my SPARCStation dead) I flamed Andy Bechtolsheim (the guy who designed it, founder of Sun, etc, etc) pretty toastily (I was workign at Sun at the time). And his response was simply that it didn't merit being in EEPROM or even PROM. You see the boot firmware wanted to store some bits in NVRAM and as long as you have it, and the firmware guys don't need all of it, why go to the trouble of adding yet another chip, decoder, etc to put more non-volatile memory on the mainboard? So here we are. --Chuck From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 10:20:27 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! Message-ID: Hello all, Thanks to all for the wonderful hints and tips. I have already gotten offers from several people to send/pick-up full power supplies. I will certainly follow up on some of those (but not all, simply because I could use a couple, not 5 or ten! :-). I will also get the 6.3V transformer, and try to build my own, just to know I can do it. Dick is right: In this particular case (though not all), I'd rather buy/get than build. Partially this is due to my inexperience at building power supplies. I have several S-100 backplanes, and many S-100 cards, but only one power supply. I'd like to get more S-100 stuff going, and I'd rather not release the magic smoke on my cards due to a bad design or bad construction methods. These boards are getting harder to find (at least in my corner of the world), so if I have a known working supply, I'd rather use that. On the other hand, this is the perfect opportunity to learn how to build a power supply. However, as Dick also pointed out, that is a secondary concern. I am more anxious to get the S-100 stuff running than I am to build a power supply. I will build one up, however (and test it thoroughly), and put it into operation. It's just that it will take me more time to get things running if I have to build up a power supply, rather than getting one already made. Thanks again to all, Rich B. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Aug 30 10:29:52 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Looking of Digital Alpha CPU/Motherboard Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501466FFE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, someone on the Alpha-NT email list (which I'm sending this message to) should have a clue for you... (AlphaNT- don't forget to keep Jacek's address in the reply...) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jacek Artymiak [mailto:workstations@poczta.onet.pl] ! Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:30 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Looking of Digital Alpha CPU/Motherboard ! ! ! Hi all, ! ! I acquired a small lot of Alpha 166 and 233MHz CPUs. ! Unfortunately, the ! AXPpci 33 motherboard I have does not work with the Alpha ! 21164-AA CPU I ! found in the box of Alpha CPUs sent to me. ! ! Does anyone know which DEC motherboards work with the Digital ! Alpha 233MHz ! 21164-AA CPU? I tried looking for information on the net, ! but found very ! few pointers. ! ! Jacek Artymiak ! ! ! ! -- ! ! OnetKomunikator - porozumiesz sie ! z innymi [ http://ok.onet.pl/instaluj.html ] ! From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Aug 30 10:38:33 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Apple LISA easter egg... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467000@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Jeff --- While I was perusing your website, I ran across the page talking about the Lisa, http://www.geocities.com/j_hellige/LISA2.HTML I tried the easter egg, at the bottom of the page, on my OS9.1 Mac. They shotened it. Now, it only says "Finder - Created by all of the folks here at Apple. Inspired by the distinguished history of the Macintosh desktop.", still in front of the picture of the Apple campus. So much for the homage to the Lisa and her programmers... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] ! Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:18 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! <<<<>>>> ! Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File ! http://www.cchaven.com ! http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 ! From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 10:28:11 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Any interest in Apple IIgs computers? Message-ID: Hello all, Two local schools in my area are trying to get rid of some Apple IIgs computers. I found out about this in time to save them from the dumpster. The total number of computers is somewhere between 50 and 100. I have NOT seen the computers, so I have no idea what shape they are in. I assume they are dirty, and may have school markings engraved or painted on them. I am going to see them on Tuesday, so I will have a better idea of the details then. I would like to accomplish two things: Get these computers to people that will use them, and make a donation to the schools. Assuming the computers are in working order, complete and functional, and assuming they may need a good cleaning, and may have school marking on them, how many people would be interested in them for $5.00 each + shipping (for those with small fonts, that's FIVE dollars, plus shipping)? I live in Massachusetts, USA, ZIP code 01473. Please respond OFF-LIST... And remember, I have NOT seen them yet, so I cannot give any more details than what you see here. Your responses will NOT be binding in ANY way ... I'm just trying to gauge general interest... Rich B. From RHudson at esprit.com Thu Aug 30 11:14:35 2001 From: RHudson at esprit.com (RHudson@esprit.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Undeliverable Mail] Message-ID: Well several of my replys were rejected by classicomp email system so here they all are together... :^) Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard >> slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but >> all I >> can find is the Instruction Set... > > > Do you _have_ a CARDIAC? Do you want one? > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ I don't have one, but the instruction set was listed on the Internet once or twice, 0,input ... What I don't have is the "Wireing" that graphic on the "cpu" side that controlls operation, and there are part that change with the instructions. Yes I would like a cardiac, any donations? (will trade for C coded emulator :^) [ will code for toys?? ] ) I went on to "design" the 8 bit machine described because cardiac won't handle character data, only 3 digit numbers. I also wanted to make use of the a whole 8 bits, and have each instruction use only 8 bits (well some of them do read the next byte via indirect of the PC) Also I think the flag testing at for each instruction is um clever, what do you think. will repost instruction set if desired. I really wanted some of you to look over the instruction set and theory to see if I was obvously missing somthing. Reply to Zane... Thanks for the pointer to the TOPS-10 emulator I will see what I can do with it... From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 30 11:10:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies Message-ID: For those who asked, I need DSDD 8" Soft-Sectored Disks. Peace... Sridhar From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 30 11:34:40 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <726.642T2000T10545985optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On 27 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> How would you plug a CGA monitor (D9) into a bus mouse port (mini-DIN)? >Because the GREEN-EYED Microsoft Bus Mouse was NOT a mini-DIN! >Later on, all sorts of atrocities were committed. But the original >GREEN-EYED Microsoft Bus Mouse had a male DE9 that plugged into a female >DE9 connector on the original Microsoft Bus Mouse card. Male? Well, at least that means it's easy to identify (I try to pick up bus mice for converting into Atari mice). I suppose that this is why M$ call their mini-DIN port the InPort? >The GREEN-EYED Microsoft SERIAL mouse was available with a DB25. Obviously. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Age is a high price to pay for maturity. From optimus at canit.se Thu Aug 30 11:46:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <737.642T2600T10666629optimus@canit.se> Don Maslin skrev: >On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: >> Only on topic if it's considered a use for NTSC monitors... >> >> Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? >> Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. >> I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR >> and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. >If that is the only part that you want, John, why not pick one up >at a thrift shop. It is certain to be a damned site less than $80! Second hands electronics shops tend to have dedicated TV tuners as well. Otherwise, you could try looking for an old video system, the kind which had the tuner in another box instead of integrated into the VTR itself. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 30 12:16:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <726.642T2000T10545985optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 30 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >DE9 connector on the original Microsoft Bus Mouse card. > Male? Well, at least that means it's easy to identify (I try to pick up bus > mice for converting into Atari mice). I suppose that this is why M$ call their > mini-DIN port the InPort? Don't know. The early Microsoft mice that I have had had soldered on, NOT molded connectors, so it isn't always even easy to tell whether the connector is the original/"correct" one. > >The GREEN-EYED Microsoft SERIAL mouse was available with a DB25. > Obviously. I've seen some LATER Green-eyed serials with female DE9, but I don't know whether they were built that way, or whether somebody changed connector to be able to stop using adapters. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mdorman at InfoAve.Net Thu Aug 30 12:29:26 2001 From: mdorman at InfoAve.Net (Mark or Beth Dorman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010830132926.00796bc0@mail.infoave.net> I have an IBM PS/1 that I messed up the 4.0 ver by trying to upgrade b/4 I realized there was a partitioned D drive. Now, I'm stuck 'cause I can't use FDISK because the command is not there. When the p/c is turned on, the IBM DOS Version 4.00 comes up, so I'm assumming the only way I can fix this is to re-load the program..only I can't find them. I did all this before I was smart enough to go to school and learn something before delete files!! Do you still have the 4.0 disk for sale? Thanks, Beth Dorman From awc at dryden.lakeheadu.ca Thu Aug 30 13:14:06 2001 From: awc at dryden.lakeheadu.ca (awc) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: Zenith Message-ID: <3B8E826E.4D746AF0@dryden.lakeheadu.ca> Hi All, I have a Zenith H-89 based computer control system which needs few ICs. Any body know place to buy these? D765AC C8208 - CPU? C8087-1 WD2123-PL - I guess western digital disk controller. Thanks for any info. anil From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 30 13:43:33 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:02 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 References: <3.0.5.32.20010830132926.00796bc0@mail.infoave.net> Message-ID: <000701c13183$b15ca480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > FDISK v4 for PS/1 ( Beth Dorman ) My guess is that any FDISK on any DOS ( v3 or higher ) will do for this. My current Windows computer has fdisk, for example. Many, many others on the list know more, but I think you can Format ( with 'Copy System Files' ) a floppy, and put fdisk on it with a New computer and be OK. John A. From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 30 13:44:59 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Last week's finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Hans H?bner wrote: > On 30 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > [VAXStation 3100] But what about breaking into this system? Is there any > > trick to forced entry into VMS, and what are you to do once you're inside? > > Any pointers for a VAX newbie? > > You need to perform a conversational boot and then change the password of the > SYSTEM account. > > http://www.savilltech.com/vmsfaq.html#A16 describes the easy way, which > sometimes does not work. The complete procedures are outlined in the OpenVMS > System Manager's Manual: > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ssb71/6017/6017p007.htm > > -Hans There was also a running dialogue on comp.os.vms within the recent weeks about breaking into VMS 5.5.2 that Iggy might find useful. - don > -- > finger hans@huebner.org for details > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 30 13:57:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator References: <737.642T2600T10666629optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <001b01c13185$a6d569a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Thrift stores are about the only place I see the modular tuners that once were popular with "component" video recorder systems. SONY made them as did a number of other makers, but the SONY ones are common because they were made to go with BETA format equipment, though they're still NTSC tuners. I'd bet that if you find one, you can get it for about $5 here in the USA. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Don Maslin" Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: Re: OT: TV Tuner / demodulator > Don Maslin skrev: > > >On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: > > >> Only on topic if it's considered a use for NTSC monitors... > >> > >> Anybody know where to get a TV tuner for a good price? > >> Sony had one for RV's but that was IIRC $300+. > >> I figure I'm going to take the circuit board out of a $80 VCR > >> and toss the rest. Seems kinda wasteful though. > > >If that is the only part that you want, John, why not pick one up > >at a thrift shop. It is certain to be a damned site less than $80! > > Second hands electronics shops tend to have dedicated TV tuners as well. > Otherwise, you could try looking for an old video system, the kind which had > the tuner in another box instead of integrated into the VTR itself. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 30 14:47:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Last week's finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> You need to perform a conversational boot and then change the password >>of the >> SYSTEM account. >> >> http://www.savilltech.com/vmsfaq.html#A16 describes the easy way, which >> sometimes does not work. The complete procedures are outlined in the >>OpenVMS >> System Manager's Manual: >> http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ssb71/6017/6017p007.htm >> >> -Hans > >There was also a running dialogue on comp.os.vms within the recent weeks >about breaking into VMS 5.5.2 that Iggy might find useful. Just refer to the modern OpenVMS FAQ the proceedure in it works just fine (I'm really not sure what that thing above is, if it's an ancient one, or something other than the official FAQ). I always use the proceedure in the OpenVMS FAQ when I forget the system password. http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vance at ikickass.org Thu Aug 30 14:50:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010830132926.00796bc0@mail.infoave.net> Message-ID: I could make copies of mine for you, if you would like. I would have no problem doing it for the cost of shipping. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Mark or Beth Dorman wrote: > I have an IBM PS/1 that I messed up the 4.0 ver by trying to upgrade b/4 I > realized there was a partitioned D drive. Now, I'm stuck 'cause I can't > use FDISK because the command is not there. > > When the p/c is turned on, the IBM DOS Version 4.00 comes up, so I'm > assumming the only way I can fix this is to re-load the program..only I > can't find them. > > I did all this before I was smart enough to go to school and learn > something before delete files!! > > Do you still have the 4.0 disk for sale? > > Thanks, > Beth Dorman > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 30 15:14:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Zenith References: <3B8E826E.4D746AF0@dryden.lakeheadu.ca> Message-ID: <000901c13190$5ad2ca60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> D765AC the most common FDC in the world ... the one use on PC, PCXT, PCAT made by NEC and as i8272 by Intel C8208 Intel DRAM controller C8087-1 Intel math coprocessor for 8086-series WD2123-PL 4-phase clock generator for FDC ----- Original Message ----- From: "awc" To: "Classic" Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:14 PM Subject: Zenith > Hi All, > > I have a Zenith H-89 based computer control system which needs few ICs. > Any body know place to buy these? > > D765AC > C8208 - CPU? > C8087-1 > WD2123-PL - I guess western digital disk controller. > > Thanks for any info. > > anil > > From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 30 15:23:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 In-Reply-To: <000701c13183$b15ca480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, John Allain wrote: > > FDISK v4 for PS/1 ( Beth Dorman ) > > My guess is that any FDISK on any DOS ( v3 or higher ) > will do for this. My current Windows computer has fdisk, > for example. Many, many others on the list know more, > but I think you can Format ( with 'Copy System Files' ) a > floppy, and put fdisk on it with a New computer and be OK. > > John A. Unless it can be handled by SETVER, he will get an error message "Incorrect DOS". - don From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Aug 30 15:28:16 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 Message-ID: <85.f420013.28bffbe0@aol.com> Dos is in ROM on this model.(2011 or 2121?) There are two files that will be needed: CUSTOMIZ.EXE & CONFIGUR.EXE one of those gives the option to tell the computer to boot from the hard drive rather than the ROM DOS. MS has something in their knowledge base about it if you can figure out how to use their crappy search method. david, former PS/1 support In a message dated 8/30/2001 3:03:53 PM Central Daylight Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: > I could make copies of mine for you, if you would like. I would have no > problem doing it for the cost of shipping. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Mark or Beth Dorman wrote: > > > I have an IBM PS/1 that I messed up the 4.0 ver by trying to upgrade b/4 I > > realized there was a partitioned D drive. Now, I'm stuck 'cause I can't > > use FDISK because the command is not there. > > > > When the p/c is turned on, the IBM DOS Version 4.00 comes up, so I'm > > assumming the only way I can fix this is to re-load the program..only I > > can't find them. > > > > I did all this before I was smart enough to go to school and learn > > something before delete files!! > > > > Do you still have the 4.0 disk for sale? > > > > Thanks, > > Beth Dorman > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010830/1ee7239f/attachment.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Aug 30 16:06:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:50:38PM -0400 References: <3.0.5.32.20010830132926.00796bc0@mail.infoave.net> Message-ID: <20010830160630.H8898@mrbill.net> On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:50:38PM -0400, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > I could make copies of mine for you, if you would like. I would have no > problem doing it for the cost of shipping. Also see http://www.bootdisk.com. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:11:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! In-Reply-To: <001901c130e7$0b6a9ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 29, 1 06:02:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1039 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010830/4a741ee9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:18:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Answers (was: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 29, 1 05:29:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010830/78915bce/attachment.ksh From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Aug 30 16:59:53 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829232718.03cf0c90@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010830145728.03c40c20@mail.zipcon.net> At 07:04 AM 8/30/01 -0700, you wrote: >Well you figure for EOL hardware, Sun has no reason to fix the >problem. It very well may have been a newbie engineer mistake that wasn't >caught in time. The end result is that it's not worth it to them to fix >the error. I would be surprised if they didn't eventually fix it for new >design hardware. True, but for currently supported hardware I'd expect them to make an effort to fix the problem *Sigh* but i'm just silly that way i guess :) >I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead to two very >important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad >tracks far outnumber the good ones. :) Congrats :) the SS1 can take any 50-pin 3.5" scsi drive. Do youi want another 200 MB drive? I probably have 1 or 2 laying around here that were good the last time i fired them up, and they should also have sunos 4.1.4 on them (solaris 1.1.2) you could have them for shipping costs. From west at tseinc.com Fri Aug 31 05:24:18 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: HP2000 Access - It LIVES! *GRIN* Message-ID: <003401c13207$188ae440$0101a8c0@jay> I am now the proud owner of a living breathing HP2000Access system. Today I got the IOP configured and running, then the system processor followed suit in short order. I was quite concerned that after spending years on getting the hardware all tested and passing diagnostics that I'd go to load the OS and the OS tape would be bad. Fortunately, that was not the case, the OS tape read and installed just beautifully! I was able to do system console commands like ROS, DIR, SLE, HIB, CRE, etc. Was even able to do ANN-ALL,System going down now! before shutting it down. The biggest wrinkle I ran into at the last minute was loading the cross-link and mag tape boot loader from the IOP to the system processor. The documentation was slightly obtuse about this, and I just couldn't get it to work. Finally I just said "heck with the cross-link" and moved the paper tape reader to the system processor and did it there. That means I can't share the paper tape reader to users on the system, something I really need to do so I can easily duplicate tapes and read them under BASIC. The way I was trying to load that tape was strange anyway, because I don't have the "loader/loader" tape. If anyone has a copy of the "loader/loader" tape, I would GREATLY appreciate a copy so I can install and configure the system the way you're supposed to instead of the kludge that I did. I did not hook up a terminal to the system other than the system console, I need to do many hours of soldering to rebuild the mux panel that I have. But since the MESS and ANN commands work, it's pretty likely the mux boards are in fact fine. I just may take tomorrow off work to build the mux panel and hook up a terminal other than the console. The only thing left to do on the system is rerack everything. The components aren't in my better racks, and some are not quite mounted properly, etc. So, basically cosmetic stuff. One thing I need to ask the list for (besides a copy of the loader/loader mentioned above) - an initial system load of TSB doesn't have any system library. I seem to recall one or more list members telling me they had HIB tapes of system libraries (hopefully including things like startrk, wumpus, hanoi, etc.). Now that the system is up and running, I would love to borrow any and all HIB tapes I can get to build a nice system library. If I get multiple tapes from multiple people, I'd be happy to send a tape back that includes the entire library from everyone. I'll probably key in all the programs from the David Ahl computer games book too. Finally - I suspect others on the list might be trying to build HP2000 TSB systems too - now that mine is running, after the dust settles I will most likely have duplicates of things that I have amassed - software, hardware, etc. I will gladly offer the excess/duplicates of stuff to listmembers. Preference will be given to people who are fairly close to a running system, so that we can get as many of these machines up as possible. Regards, Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010831/03f56238/attachment.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 30 17:52:56 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010830145728.03c40c20@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: > >I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead to two very > >important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad > >tracks far outnumber the good ones. :) > > Congrats :) the SS1 can take any 50-pin 3.5" scsi drive. Do youi want > another 200 MB drive? I probably have 1 or 2 laying around here that were > good the last time i fired them up, and they should also have sunos 4.1.4 > on them (solaris 1.1.2) you could have them for shipping costs. > Thanks for the offer. However, I've got 3 SS10s coming next week and they've got 2 drives in each of them. I'll just pick a drive out of them to use in the SS1. I can't really put the SS1 to use yet since I haven't nailed down an sbus ethernet card for it. g. From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Aug 30 17:53:40 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: HP2000 Access - It LIVES! *GRIN* References: <003401c13207$188ae440$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3B8EC3F4.D79E25D8@idirect.com> >Jay West wrote: > I am now the proud owner of a living breathing HP2000Access system. Congratulations!! It is certainly a thrill when that happens. From ba071 at mvcn.dayton.oh.us Thu Aug 30 17:58:38 2001 From: ba071 at mvcn.dayton.oh.us (Phil Lange) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again Message-ID: <200108302258.f7UMwcn21020@mvcn.dayton.oh.us.> Hi All Tiny Basic enthusiasts, I have more source code of variations of TinyBasic than you can shake a stick at. This would be for Tom Pittman's version c.1977. I am willing to share with anyone but only by snail mail: Phil Lange 29 Santa Clara Ave. Dayton, OH 45405 (937) 278-0506 For you emulator lovers using VICE/XVIC20 I have versions which do very well. Let's all praise the Lord and Tom Pittman for delivering us from idleness, the devil's workshop. His Tiny Basic kept me from the snares of the psychiatrist. Seriously, I have not had as much fun with any program as this one, ever! Phil From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 17:22:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Tony, try this ;>) In-Reply-To: <20010830044003.EDFQ28083.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Aug 30, 1 00:25:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2961 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010830/d92c35f0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 17:28:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Zenith In-Reply-To: <3B8E826E.4D746AF0@dryden.lakeheadu.ca> from "awc" at Aug 30, 1 01:14:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 675 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010830/d9193751/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 30 18:11:00 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: Gene Buckle "Re: SS1 ethernet MAC address..." (Aug 30, 15:52) References: Message-ID: <10108310011.ZM24298@unknown.zmail.host> On Aug 30, 15:52, Gene Buckle wrote: > I can't really put the SS1 to use yet since I haven't > nailed down an sbus ethernet card for it. You don't need one -- there's an AUI connector on the back of the motherboard. All you need is a transceiver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 30 18:40:52 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > FDISK v4 for PS/1 ( Beth Dorman ) > > My guess is that any FDISK on any DOS ( v3 or higher ) > > will do for this. My current Windows computer has fdisk, > > for example. Many, many others on the list know more, > > but I think you can Format ( with 'Copy System Files' ) a > > floppy, and put fdisk on it with a New computer and be OK. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Unless it can be handled by SETVER, he will get an error > message "Incorrect DOS". And SETVER wasn't available until V5.00 If they boot from floppy with the version of DOS that the FDISK came from, then they can get around that. In addition, FDISK with versions of DOS before 3.31 can't do partitions larger than 32M. (Zenith apparently MARKETED their version of 3.31 under the NAME 3.3PLUS) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 30 19:16:22 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Laser printer controllers (was: Answers (was: Bet you can't Name that connector... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > To make use of the first hint (DB25 and DC37 cabled to a switch box), you > > would have to consider what kinds of things used DB25 and DC37 > > interchangeably. There was no parallel printer. But to do desktop > > publishing, there would usually be a printer. The first two cards were > > both controllers for CX laser printer. One was a JLaser Plus, which used > > a DB25 female cabled to the CX engine (in this case through a switch box), > > and had a DE9 female for scanner. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I feel _very_ stupid... I should have got this. Not only do I remember > that interface, I am also one of the few people here who's converted an > old LBP8A1 into a CX-VDO, has hacked the printer engine, and has debugged > the PERQ Canon CX interface card. Oh well... Well, ... I have available: 2? Cordata (aka Corona Data Systems) controllers for connection to CX mechanism (CXVDO) They have their own easy page description language/formatting codes, and their own fonts that are supported by the Poems Font Editor, which will also convert HP soft fonts. Early versions of XenoFont will work with it for doing text screen printouts (as used in many Sybex books), The Cordata controller software that I have with them refuses to run on 286 or above! 1 Eiconscript controller for laser engines. Includes emulation of Postscript and emulation of HP PCL. Will work on 286 and above. Lots of Jlaser. (a few totes full) Have sockets for "lots" of memory. Some (Jlaser PLUS) have provision for driving Canon IX12 scanner, in addition to the laser printer. Some others have disk controllers, parallel ports, etc. in addition. Can be used with CX, or SX (special adapter required?), and can be configured (on SX?) to still permit parallel and serial operatiuon. I've already sold off the CX engines, but the fellow who got them might bwe willing to part with a few. > Seriously, I am prepared to donate any prize that I may have won to > somebody who is going to use the floppies. Rather than just have them > sitting on the shelf for the rest of time... I think that the contest was entirely hypothetical, and I really don't think that anybody ever actually had the diskettes available for the prize. Except maybe Sellam, who might want to do some sort of contest at VCF, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 30 19:53:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM Dos 4.00 Message-ID: <001b01c131b7$f990d800$9c759a8d@ajp166> I dont know that it's such a big deal. 4.0 was oddball but any old copy of 5.0 (more stable as well) would easily fdisk it and format the disk. The real problem is that apparently the disk MBR is weird and a more aggressive tool like FIPS is needed. Allison Subject: Re: IBM Dos 4.00 >> > > FDISK v4 for PS/1 ( Beth Dorman ) >> > My guess is that any FDISK on any DOS ( v3 or higher ) >> > will do for this. My current Windows computer has fdisk, >> > for example. Many, many others on the list know more, >> > but I think you can Format ( with 'Copy System Files' ) a >> > floppy, and put fdisk on it with a New computer and be OK. >On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Don Maslin wrote: >> Unless it can be handled by SETVER, he will get an error >> message "Incorrect DOS". From lhyost at nfdc.net Thu Aug 30 20:33:59 2001 From: lhyost at nfdc.net (Lloyd H. Yost) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer Message-ID: <3B8EE986.EBF0422E@nfdc.net> Just noticed these old NEC APC postings. I bought one in 1981. It sits across the room. I think i t still works. I have all the books and documents that came with it ( 10 or 12 volumes) And cases full of 8 inch flopies. I wonder if they can still be read. At the time I bought it, it was the best computer available -- but soon IBM got into the game and the situation changed. Lloyd Yost The PC 8023 A/C printer that came with it is still being used every day after 20 years !! From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Aug 30 21:03:21 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Apple LISA easter egg... Message-ID: > While I was perusing your website, I ran across the page talking >about the Lisa, >http://www.geocities.com/j_hellige/LISA2.HTML > I tried the easter egg, at the bottom of the page, on my OS9.1 Mac. >They shotened it. Now, it only says "Finder - Created by all of the folks >here at Apple. Inspired by the distinguished history of the Macintosh >desktop.", still in front of the picture of the Apple campus. > So much for the homage to the Lisa and her programmers... The easter egg still shows the names of the programmers in OS 9.0.4 but you're right, in the newest OS updates they've shortened it to the single blurb you list above. Frankly, given how little recognition programmers have recieved over the years from various companies, I'm suprised that the easter egg listing all of their names lasted this long. Thanks for the tip though, as I hadn't realized that they had changed it with 9.1. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 30 22:50:47 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party -- additional questions References: <000501c130ce$7c2e2640$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <008101c131d0$22031330$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: PDP 11/34 work party > Well this is the weekend that I'll try and get the PDP 11/34 running > as well as the AS400's in the garage. Everything is out of the rack except for one card cage. I can get it our about half way and it tilts but I can't get it free so I can open it up for cleaning and checking the power supply. Any ideas? Any documents on reassembling and cabling everything was out of the racks except for this one cage. Thanks From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Thu Aug 30 22:48:05 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 memory device driver? References: <200108290132.UAA02619@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B8F08F5.CDEFA8BC@magnaspeed.net> Hello all, I have an early IBM PC (5150) w/ 64K on the motherboard. This machine has the early BIOS bug that prevents it from recognizing over 544KB of RAM. Is there a device driver that can be used to fix up the memory area where the BIOS stores the amount of RAM? The area needs to be fixed up before DOS loads, or DOS won't see the changes. Also, is there a restriction on using an EGA card in this machine? I have a monochrome display adapter card in it; attempts to use EGA (either standalone or with the MDA) have failed. I think I'm setting the motherboard switches correctly. The EGA card in question is a genuine IBM card; two different samples have not worked. Thanks, Mike mbbrutman@magnaspeed.net From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Thu Aug 30 22:48:37 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Advanced/36 References: <200108300215.VAA30234@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B8F0915.8C3C62F7@magnaspeed.net> I actually have code running in this! (Interrupt and exception handling code.) The Advanced/36 uses an early version of SLIC (System Licensed Internal Code) used on the RISC based AS/400s sold today. Back when the RISC based AS/400s were being developed, somebody wrote an emulator for the System/36. We could easily emulate a System/36 with the new hardware, and give a lot of businesses a few more years with their software investment. Eventually we wanted them to be running on the AS/400 natively though. :-) Mike mbbrutman@magnaspeed.net From optimus at canit.se Fri Aug 31 00:02:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Hello World! on modern processors. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <585.643T1700T3625121optimus@canit.se> Absurdly Obtuse skrev: >On 27 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> judgments about the common availability of DAT recorders, MO drives and >> SACD players. >I've bought both a DAT deck and a SACD deck (the latter via special >order) through Radio Shack. I wouldn't recommend it though. Well, as I said, I haven't ever been to a Radio Shack, so I don't have such a good conception of what they actually sell, apart from TRS-80s. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From swtpc6800 at home.com Thu Aug 30 23:24:41 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Anyone know where... References: Message-ID: <002101c131d4$db2753e0$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> On eBay 10 DYSAN 8 INCH FLOPPY DISKS SSDD SEALED NEW! Item # 1268961613 Ends: Sep-02-01 18:13:55 PDT Current Price $9.99, Buy it now for $11 I have nothing to do with this auction. I have been buying new 360K 5.25 inch floppies and 720K 3.5 floppies on eBay. I have averaged about $20 per hundred but if I had more time I could have closer to $10 per hundred. (I need a hundred of each for distributing SWTPC and TSC software for 6800s and 6809s.) Michael Holley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Absurdly Obtuse" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:18 PM Subject: Anyone know where... > > Anyone know where I might be able to buy brand new 8" floppies? > > Peace... Sridhar > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Aug 30 23:58:18 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010830145728.03c40c20@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010830215757.00a38040@mail.zipcon.net> the SS1 has built in ethernet, you just need a AUI-TP convertor. At 03:52 PM 8/30/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead to two very > > >important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad > > >tracks far outnumber the good ones. :) > > > > Congrats :) the SS1 can take any 50-pin 3.5" scsi drive. Do youi want > > another 200 MB drive? I probably have 1 or 2 laying around here that were > > good the last time i fired them up, and they should also have sunos 4.1.4 > > on them (solaris 1.1.2) you could have them for shipping costs. > > >Thanks for the offer. However, I've got 3 SS10s coming next week and >they've got 2 drives in each of them. I'll just pick a drive out of them >to use in the SS1. I can't really put the SS1 to use yet since I haven't >nailed down an sbus ethernet card for it. > >g. From swtpc6800 at home.com Fri Aug 31 00:09:01 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: S-100 Power Supplies: thanks! References: Message-ID: <009201c131db$0cba0140$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> A transformer that will work for 8 Volt unregulated supplies is the Stancor Universal Rectifier Transformers. These transformers have a tapped primary and 2 identical secondary windings. You can wire them so you can get from 4 to 32 volts DC. The RT-204 is 8 amp and the RT-206 is 12 amp. I have seened these for sale on the web. (I bought one today.) You can find the data sheets at the Stancor web page. (Use Google and search for Stancor and RT-204) I used an RT-206 to upgrade my SWTPC 6800 system 20 years ago. (24k of 2102 static RAM draws 9 amps and keeps a room warm at the same time.) I had to use a second transformer for the +/- 12 volts. Here are some pictures. http://members.aol.com/swtpc6800/SWTPC/m6809/6809_side.JPG http://members.aol.com/swtpc6800/SWTPC/m6809/6809_transformer.JPG Michael Holley From fire at dataflo.net Fri Aug 31 00:09:13 2001 From: fire at dataflo.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Manual Message-ID: <200108310612.BAA11853@wddataflo.dataflo.net> I am looking for someone with AT&T 7300 paper manuals. I have a set but was missing a few pages and borrowed a manual from my friend. Unfortunately, the first day I did not notice that I was missing the lpsched(1M) page. Later I took just that page out of my friend's copy and carefully photocopied it. Here is the amazing part, I lost BOTH copies. So... if anyone has User's Manual Volume I, I would be very grateful if I could get just that one page photocopied and sent to me via snail mail. And my friend won't have to figure out where to hide my body. (Seriously, my negligence bothers both of us greatly) thanks a lot, Bradley Slavik From dschulte at tellumat.com Fri Aug 31 02:11:44 2001 From: dschulte at tellumat.com (Dominic Schulte) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: HP64000 - DOS Message-ID: <0B21FB664A89D4118AC20008C724BD938C5F91@exchcpt.tellumat.co.za> Can anyone help me/tell me how to recompile C code generated on UNIX, the compiler is called product B1493-11000 A.03.51 8086 C Cross Compiler The linker creates Intel hex output file sbc.hex. I need to be able to recompile under DOS , Windows or UNIX ???? ********************************************************************** Notice: The information contained in this e-mail (including any attachments) may contain commercially sensitive or confidential information which may be legally privileged and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not, or believe you may not be, the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, review, disclosure or action taken in reliance of this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete all copies of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender unless expressly stated by the sender to be given on behalf of Tellumat (Pty) Ltd. Tellumat (Pty) Ltd disclaims liability for any unauthorised opinion or representation made by the sender on behalf of Tellumat (Pty) Ltd. No warranty is given by Tellumat (Pty) Ltd that the integrity or security of this e-mail (including any attachments) has been maintained through transmission, nor that the communication is free of virus, interception or interference. ********************************************************************** From james at cs.york.ac.uk Fri Aug 31 04:17:24 2001 From: james at cs.york.ac.uk (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: i don't know whether this has been sent to the list before, but it tickled me. most of the "performers" appear to be classic, so it is on topic. http://www.sat.qc.ca/the_user/dotmatrix/en/intro.html -- J.F.Carter http://www.jfc.org.uk/ From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Aug 31 08:42:01 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies References: Message-ID: <3B8F9429.44D08685@idirect.com> >Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > For those who asked, I need DSDD 8" Soft-Sectored Disks. Jerome Fine replies: I don't know if this will help, but here goes. I was using the DSD 880/30 - an RL02/RX02 compatible. It holds a single 8" floppy drive which can use both SSDD and DSDD diskettes (soft-sectored). I found that since I had a small number of DSDD diskettes and the media seemed to be identical, the ONLY difference that I could observe was that the index hole was in a different location. I wired a DPDT switch into the index hole detection circuit. In the left hand position, it was wired to duplicate the existing circuit. When I wanted to REVERSE the operation, I used the right hand position of the switch. In the second position, the index hole for a SSDD diskette caused the drive to route the signal from the sensor to the portion of the circuit which normally detected the signal from the DSDD index hole. Thus, the drive and the software "THOUGHT" that a DSDD media was present and I was able to use a SSDD diskette as a DSDD diskette without having to punch a second set of index holes. The use of a DSDD diskette as a SSDD diskette is also possible if that is useful - I never found it to be needed. Naturally, this required that I do a LLF (Low Level Format) on both sides of the diskette. This the DSD 888/30 is able to do all by itself and that solved the problem. As for using the DSDD diskette with DEC software, V4.00 of RT-11 had some code which showed how to access the "second" side and use the floppy drive as an RX03. I used that code as a starting point since I also wanted to allow the DYX.SYS device driver in a 22-bit environment with V5.03 of RT-11. Note that the DSD 880/30 and the DEC RX02 with an M8029 can use only the first 1/4 MByte (18 bit addresses) when a transfer is made to/from the DMA silo from/into a buffer in the memory of a PDP-11. Software in the DYX.SYS device driver is able to use all 4 MBytes of the PDP-11 physical address space in a manner totally transparent to the user of the device driver. I realize that Sridhar is not using RT-11, but I just thought I might mention the above for those of you that do. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 31 09:41:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies References: <3B8F9429.44D08685@idirect.com> Message-ID: <001701c1322b$06db4360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, if the written spec's can be believed, you can't SEE the difference between DD and SD media. That doesn't change the fact that they have different spec's. Further, DS media are certified on BOTH sides, while the emulsion on one side may be defective. It's true that DS media have their index hole located differently than SS media. The index timing is different, according to some drive makers, albeit not VERY different. At least one mfg spec's the DS drives with 160 microsecond +/- 50 from the start of /Index to the data burst, while SS media are at 200. I've never given much thought to this and how it affects things, but I am not comfortable with the notion of switching, mechanically, between the two sensors. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Fine" To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:42 AM Subject: Re: 8" Floppies > >Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > For those who asked, I need DSDD 8" Soft-Sectored Disks. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I don't know if this will help, but here goes. > > I was using the DSD 880/30 - an RL02/RX02 compatible. It > holds a single 8" floppy drive which can use both SSDD and DSDD > diskettes (soft-sectored). I found that since I had a small number of > DSDD diskettes and the media seemed to be identical, the ONLY > difference that I could observe was that the index hole was in a > different location. > > I wired a DPDT switch into the index hole detection circuit. In the left > hand position, it was wired to duplicate the existing circuit. When I > wanted to REVERSE the operation, I used the right hand position of > the switch. In the second position, the index hole for a SSDD diskette > caused the drive to route the signal from the sensor to the portion of > the circuit which normally detected the signal from the DSDD index > hole. Thus, the drive and the software "THOUGHT" that a DSDD > media was present and I was able to use a SSDD diskette as a DSDD > diskette without having to punch a second set of index holes. The > use of a DSDD diskette as a SSDD diskette is also possible if that > is useful - I never found it to be needed. > > Naturally, this required that I do a LLF (Low Level Format) on both > sides of the diskette. This the DSD 888/30 is able to do all by itself > and that solved the problem. As for using the DSDD diskette with > DEC software, V4.00 of RT-11 had some code which showed how > to access the "second" side and use the floppy drive as an RX03. > I used that code as a starting point since I also wanted to allow the > DYX.SYS device driver in a 22-bit environment with V5.03 of > RT-11. Note that the DSD 880/30 and the DEC RX02 with an > M8029 can use only the first 1/4 MByte (18 bit addresses) when > a transfer is made to/from the DMA silo from/into a buffer in the > memory of a PDP-11. Software in the DYX.SYS device driver > is able to use all 4 MBytes of the PDP-11 physical address space > in a manner totally transparent to the user of the device driver. > > I realize that Sridhar is not using RT-11, but I just thought I might > mention the above for those of you that do. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Aug 31 09:47:58 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: classic comp CD library?(RE: HP2000 Access - It LIVES! *GRIN*) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467006@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This brings up a thought... Can all this stuff you have be put onto a CD somehow, for preservation purposes? We all have programs and stuff, I'm sure, that exist only on magnetic media. Wouldn't having all this on a CD (or something) library make sense as backups? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 > ---------- > From: Jay West > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:24 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP2000 Access - It LIVES! *GRIN* > > I am now the proud owner of a living breathing HP2000Access system. Today > I got the IOP configured and running, then the system processor followed > suit in short order. I was quite concerned that after spending years on > getting the hardware all tested and passing diagnostics that I'd go to > load the OS and the OS tape would be bad. Fortunately, that was not the > case, the OS tape read and installed just beautifully! I was able to do > system console commands like ROS, DIR, SLE, HIB, CRE, etc. Was even able > to do ANN-ALL,System going down now! before shutting it down. > > The biggest wrinkle I ran into at the last minute was loading the > cross-link and mag tape boot loader from the IOP to the system processor. > The documentation was slightly obtuse about this, and I just couldn't get > it to work. Finally I just said "heck with the cross-link" and moved the > paper tape reader to the system processor and did it there. That means I > can't share the paper tape reader to users on the system, something I > really need to do so I can easily duplicate tapes and read them under > BASIC. The way I was trying to load that tape was strange anyway, because > I don't have the "loader/loader" tape. If anyone has a copy of the > "loader/loader" tape, I would GREATLY appreciate a copy so I can install > and configure the system the way you're supposed to instead of the kludge > that I did. > > I did not hook up a terminal to the system other than the system console, > I need to do many hours of soldering to rebuild the mux panel that I have. > But since the MESS and ANN commands work, it's pretty likely the mux > boards are in fact fine. I just may take tomorrow off work to build the > mux panel and hook up a terminal other than the console. > > The only thing left to do on the system is rerack everything. The > components aren't in my better racks, and some are not quite mounted > properly, etc. So, basically cosmetic stuff. > > One thing I need to ask the list for (besides a copy of the loader/loader > mentioned above) - an initial system load of TSB doesn't have any system > library. I seem to recall one or more list members telling me they had HIB > tapes of system libraries (hopefully including things like startrk, > wumpus, hanoi, etc.). Now that the system is up and running, I would love > to borrow any and all HIB tapes I can get to build a nice system library. > If I get multiple tapes from multiple people, I'd be happy to send a tape > back that includes the entire library from everyone. I'll probably key in > all the programs from the David Ahl computer games book too. > > Finally - I suspect others on the list might be trying to build HP2000 TSB > systems too - now that mine is running, after the dust settles I will most > likely have duplicates of things that I have amassed - software, hardware, > etc. I will gladly offer the excess/duplicates of stuff to listmembers. > Preference will be given to people who are fairly close to a running > system, so that we can get as many of these machines up as possible. > > Regards, > > Jay West > > > From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Fri Aug 31 10:16:36 2001 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Manual In-Reply-To: <200108310612.BAA11853@wddataflo.dataflo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Bradley Slavik wrote: > I am looking for someone with AT&T 7300 paper manuals. Yup. > I have a set but was missing a few pages and borrowed > a manual from my friend. Unfortunately, the first day > I did not notice that I was missing the lpsched(1M) Gottit. Contact me by email, send me yer snailmail addy. Bill From awx at btinternet.com Fri Aug 31 10:23:32 2001 From: awx at btinternet.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: BA123 Power In-Reply-To: <585.643T1700T3625121optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Hello All! I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard uVAX-II in a BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and power requirements... also, for the DIGITAL fanatics i've got an old DECpc sitting here if anyone wants it to complete collections..... no? thought not, just couldn't resist asking! Alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 07/08/2001 From ncherry at home.com Fri Aug 31 10:58:47 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Manual References: <200108310612.BAA11853@wddataflo.dataflo.net> Message-ID: <3B8FB437.429C6B7B@home.com> Bradley Slavik wrote: > > I am looking for someone with AT&T 7300 paper manuals. > > I have a set but was missing a few pages and borrowed > a manual from my friend. Unfortunately, the first day > I did not notice that I was missing the lpsched(1M) > page. Later I took just that page out of my friend's > copy and carefully photocopied it. Here is the amazing > part, I lost BOTH copies. > > So... if anyone has User's Manual Volume I, I would be > very grateful if I could get just that one page > photocopied and sent to me via snail mail. And my > friend won't have to figure out where to hide my > body. (Seriously, my negligence bothers both of us > greatly) I have a number of manuals (and probably the software too and maybe the Video mod board). I'll check to see what I still have, If anyone would like this 'stuff', I'm in Central NJ. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Aug 31 11:17:23 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146700D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> What's in the DECpc? What are it's specs like? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 > ---------- > From: Alex White > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:23 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: BA123 Power > > Hello All! > > I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard uVAX-II in > a > BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and power > requirements... > > also, for the DIGITAL fanatics i've got an old DECpc sitting here if > anyone > wants it to complete collections..... no? thought not, just couldn't > resist > asking! > > Alex > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 07/08/2001 > > From awx at btinternet.com Fri Aug 31 11:48:08 2001 From: awx at btinternet.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: BA123 Power In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146700D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: It's a rather standard i486/25 with 4Mb RAM and integrated VGA. Nothing special at all really, I bought it as a cheap server and because of the DEC link but now as it's been replaced it's free to anyone. One caveat - i'm in the UK... Alex -----Original Message----- From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] Sent: 31 August 2001 17:17 To: 'awx@btinternet.com' Cc: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: BA123 Power What's in the DECpc? What are it's specs like? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 > ---------- > From: Alex White > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:23 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: BA123 Power > > Hello All! > > I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard uVAX-II in > a > BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and power > requirements... > > also, for the DIGITAL fanatics i've got an old DECpc sitting here if > anyone > wants it to complete collections..... no? thought not, just couldn't > resist > asking! > > Alex > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 07/08/2001 > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Aug 31 12:00:37 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146700E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> UK? Oh well, kills the deal for me... I was hoping for maybe something like an Alpha... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Alex White [mailto:awx@btinternet.com] ! Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 12:48 PM ! To: David Woyciesjes ! Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: RE: BA123 Power ! ! ! It's a rather standard i486/25 with 4Mb RAM and integrated ! VGA. Nothing ! special at all really, I bought it as a cheap server and ! because of the DEC ! link but now as it's been replaced it's free to anyone. One ! caveat - i'm in ! the UK... ! ! Alex ! ! -----Original Message----- ! From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] ! Sent: 31 August 2001 17:17 ! To: 'awx@btinternet.com' ! Cc: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' ! Subject: RE: BA123 Power ! ! ! What's in the DECpc? What are it's specs like? ! ! --- David A Woyciesjes ! --- C & IS Support Specialist ! --- Yale University Press ! --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! --- (203) 432-0953 ! --- ICQ # - 905818 ! ! > ---------- ! > From: Alex White ! > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:23 AM ! > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! > Subject: BA123 Power ! > ! > Hello All! ! > ! > I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly ! standard uVAX-II in ! > a ! > BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and power ! > requirements... ! > ! > also, for the DIGITAL fanatics i've got an old DECpc sitting here if ! > anyone ! > wants it to complete collections..... no? thought not, just couldn't ! > resist ! > asking! ! > ! > Alex ! > --- ! > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. ! > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ! > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 07/08/2001 ! > ! > ! From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri Aug 31 12:30:03 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Bell Technologies Workstation Graphics Engine Message-ID: <01dd01c13242$91d1a330$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> "Bell Technologies Workstation Graphics Engine" I got this in a box of other computer junk a long time ago. It's a full size PC-AT card with an Intel 82786 (some sort of graphics controller), some 16 pin DIP DRAM (256K bits), and a bunch of logic chips on it. The date codes on the chips are 1987. I think it might have been a very early X-windows accelerator for the PC-AT. The graphics chip might be kind of interesting, but I don't have time to fool with it. You can probably find some info on it in a mid-80's Intel data book. Does anybody want this? -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 31 13:39:12 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: Two DEC LN03 toner / maintenance kits available Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010831133743.022e35f0@pc> I picked up two each of the toner cart kit and the user maintenance kits, at $2 each. They're available at that cost plus shipping. New in box, unused. - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Aug 31 13:07:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, James Carter wrote: > i don't know whether this has been sent to the list before, but it > tickled me. most of the "performers" appear to be classic, so it is on > topic. > > http://www.sat.qc.ca/the_user/dotmatrix/en/intro.html I tried to get these folks to perform this at the VCF the last couple years but the budget for such a thing is too large unfortunately. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 12:42:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 memory device driver? In-Reply-To: <3B8F08F5.CDEFA8BC@magnaspeed.net> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Aug 30, 1 10:48:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 643 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010831/cee24fd9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 12:38:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: Laser printer controllers (was: Answers (was: Bet you can't Name In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 30, 1 05:16:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1949 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010831/49759e5f/attachment.ksh From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Aug 31 15:05:14 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: [mac-nt] [Off] Token Ring Cards Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467011@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Chris --- I'll forward this to the Classic Computing (classiccmp@classiccmp.org) list for you. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@mac.com] ! ! Ok, I have tried unsuccessfully to sell off these things, so now I am ! just offering them for free. ! ! I have a box load of 16/4 token ring cards. Most are ISA, but ! there are a ! few MCA and EISA cards. All are 16/4 cards, and all have at least an ! RJ-45 connector (but some also have a DB-9). ! ! They are FREE to anyone that wants them (well, free plus ! shipping). They ! will be shipping out of Northern New Jersey (07450 zip). ! Anyone can have ! as many of any style as they want (up to as many as I have obviously). ! ! I don't know if they work as I am not the one that removed them from ! operation. They were all removed from computers during a mass ! Ethernet ! migration, so I have no reason to believe that they won't ! work (but since ! I didn't pull them, I can't say for sure). They are JUST the ! cards, no ! cables, no manuals, no drivers, no warrenties, no nothing... ! just a box ! of cards. ! ! If anyone is interested, email me off list (lets not clutter ! up the list ! with this topic). I can ship pretty much any manner that you ! request, but ! remember YOU cover shipping costs, so take that into account before ! requesting FedEx P1 overnight. ! ! If no one here wants any... are their any recommendations as ! to where I ! might unload them (other than my dumpster which is where they will be ! headed soon). I just feel bad tossing out about 60 perfectly ! fine token ! ring cards, but no one seems to want them. ! ! -chris ! ! ! ! ! [DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] This is a posting from the ! Mac-NT Mailing List. To unsubscribe, forward this message ! (Including these lines) to ! . List Charter and ! FAQ at: ! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/mac-nt-list_charter.htm From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Fri Aug 31 15:37:21 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: HP2000 BASIC References: <002d01c132b4$74d4f4e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <006501c1325c$bcfef4d0$0100a8c0@dellhare> Jay - Congratulations! Now about those hardware upgrades... ;-) Bruce Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: HP2000 BASIC > As a followup... > > Today I got the mux board put together and hooked up a few terminals. I hit > return and was greeted with the infamous "PLEASE LOG IN". Then I created an > A000 account, logged in, and entered/ran some basic programs... WOOHOO! It's > all up 100% now. > > Funny how I just got the system completely usable today, and already I'm > thinking about hardware upgrades *smile* > > It will take me some time - weeks at least & maybe months to get around to > putting a FreeBSD machine on front of the system so people can telnet to the > HP2000 box across the internet. However, if someone just can't wait to play > with it (yes, a few people have already asked me about this) - send me a > private email and I'll slap a modem directly on the system so you can dial > in. All you'd have is long distance fees. > > Regards! (time for me to go have lots of beer to celebrate) > > Jay West From rickb at bensene.com Fri Aug 31 15:48:38 2001 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: HP2000 BASIC In-Reply-To: <002d01c132b4$74d4f4e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: I'd be up for dial in, no question. How about account R401, which was my account for all four years of highschool? Where do you live? Wish I could be there to drink some beers with ya, as well as buy you a bunch! Awesome accomplishment, Jay! Rick > As a followup... > > Today I got the mux board put together and hooked up a few > terminals. I hit > return and was greeted with the infamous "PLEASE LOG IN". Then I > created an > A000 account, logged in, and entered/ran some basic programs... > WOOHOO! It's > all up 100% now. > > Funny how I just got the system completely usable today, and already I'm > thinking about hardware upgrades *smile* > > It will take me some time - weeks at least & maybe months to get around to > putting a FreeBSD machine on front of the system so people can > telnet to the > HP2000 box across the internet. However, if someone just can't > wait to play > with it (yes, a few people have already asked me about this) - send me a > private email and I'll slap a modem directly on the system so you can dial > in. All you'd have is long distance fees. > > Regards! (time for me to go have lots of beer to celebrate) > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Aug 31 15:40:27 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066104@exc-reo1> > Alex White wrote: > >I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard uVAX-II in a >BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and power >requirements... About 700W (8.8A in the US, 4.4A in the UK). Over here (in the UK) it just plugs into an ordinary socket. No special power or air conditioning requirements. Antonio From donm at cts.com Fri Aug 31 15:52:54 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <001701c1322b$06db4360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, if the written spec's can be believed, you can't SEE the difference > between DD and SD media. That doesn't change the fact that they have different > spec's. Further, DS media are certified on BOTH sides, while the emulsion on > one side may be defective. > > It's true that DS media have their index hole located differently than SS media. > The index timing is different, according to some drive makers, albeit not VERY > different. At least one mfg spec's the DS drives with 160 microsecond +/- 50 > from the start of /Index to the data burst, while SS media are at 200. I've > never given much thought to this and how it affects things, but I am not > comfortable with the notion of switching, mechanically, between the two sensors. > > Dick Probably of little consequence, Dick, since his DSDD disks will not be readable by anyone else unless the have performed the same modification to a single-sided drive. - don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerome Fine" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:42 AM > Subject: Re: 8" Floppies > > > > >Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > > > For those who asked, I need DSDD 8" Soft-Sectored Disks. > > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > > > I don't know if this will help, but here goes. > > > > I was using the DSD 880/30 - an RL02/RX02 compatible. It > > holds a single 8" floppy drive which can use both SSDD and DSDD > > diskettes (soft-sectored). I found that since I had a small number of > > DSDD diskettes and the media seemed to be identical, the ONLY > > difference that I could observe was that the index hole was in a > > different location. > > > > I wired a DPDT switch into the index hole detection circuit. In the left > > hand position, it was wired to duplicate the existing circuit. When I > > wanted to REVERSE the operation, I used the right hand position of > > the switch. In the second position, the index hole for a SSDD diskette > > caused the drive to route the signal from the sensor to the portion of > > the circuit which normally detected the signal from the DSDD index > > hole. Thus, the drive and the software "THOUGHT" that a DSDD > > media was present and I was able to use a SSDD diskette as a DSDD > > diskette without having to punch a second set of index holes. The > > use of a DSDD diskette as a SSDD diskette is also possible if that > > is useful - I never found it to be needed. > > > > Naturally, this required that I do a LLF (Low Level Format) on both > > sides of the diskette. This the DSD 888/30 is able to do all by itself > > and that solved the problem. As for using the DSDD diskette with > > DEC software, V4.00 of RT-11 had some code which showed how > > to access the "second" side and use the floppy drive as an RX03. > > I used that code as a starting point since I also wanted to allow the > > DYX.SYS device driver in a 22-bit environment with V5.03 of > > RT-11. Note that the DSD 880/30 and the DEC RX02 with an > > M8029 can use only the first 1/4 MByte (18 bit addresses) when > > a transfer is made to/from the DMA silo from/into a buffer in the > > memory of a PDP-11. Software in the DYX.SYS device driver > > is able to use all 4 MBytes of the PDP-11 physical address space > > in a manner totally transparent to the user of the device driver. > > > > I realize that Sridhar is not using RT-11, but I just thought I might > > mention the above for those of you that do. > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > Jerome Fine > > > > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Aug 31 16:01:05 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: BA123 Power References: Message-ID: <003501c13260$0d611540$030101ac@boll.casema.net> A uVAX II is a LSI-chip version of the famous DEC VAX-system architecture And not a PC or anything like a PC!!!! It is Q-BUS based and resides in a BA23 or BA123 enclosure There are many versions of microVAXEN or VAX-stations/servers The contempory PC has a lot architectural features that where first developed on the VAX-platform. VAX-systems were PDP11 ofspring and go back to the end of the 70's. The uVAX II was introduced in 1985 Have a look here: http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/dr/index.html And here: http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vaxlinks.html Or soak in some of the more esoteric stuff on this list ....... Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex White To: David Woyciesjes Cc: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:48 PM Subject: RE: BA123 Power > It's a rather standard i486/25 with 4Mb RAM and integrated VGA. Nothing > special at all really, I bought it as a cheap server and because of the DEC > link but now as it's been replaced it's free to anyone. One caveat - i'm in > the UK... > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] > Sent: 31 August 2001 17:17 > To: 'awx@btinternet.com' > Cc: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: BA123 Power > > > What's in the DECpc? What are it's specs like? > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > > ---------- > > From: Alex White > > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:23 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: BA123 Power > > > > Hello All! > > > > I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard uVAX-II in > > a > > BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and power > > requirements... > > > > also, for the DIGITAL fanatics i've got an old DECpc sitting here if > > anyone > > wants it to complete collections..... no? thought not, just couldn't > > resist > > asking! > > > > Alex > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 07/08/2001 > > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 31 16:30:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: BA123 Power In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Aug 31, 2001 01:40:27 PM Message-ID: <200108312130.f7VLUWa18786@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Alex White wrote: > > > >I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard > uVAX-II in a > >BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and > power > >requirements... > > About 700W (8.8A in the US, 4.4A in the UK). I could have sworn that it is a 600W powersupply. Of course that doesn't mean that the system will pull that much. In any case, I've never had any problems, and it's amazing I've never popped a breaker with mine, considering how much other stuff I tend to have running. > Over here (in the UK) it just plugs > into an ordinary socket. No special > power or air conditioning requirements. > > Antonio Plugs in to an ordinary socket in the US as well. Zane From donm at cts.com Fri Aug 31 16:32:44 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:07 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Well, if the written spec's can be believed, you can't SEE the difference > > between DD and SD media. That doesn't change the fact that they have different > > spec's. Further, DS media are certified on BOTH sides, while the emulsion on > > one side may be defective. > > > > It's true that DS media have their index hole located differently than SS media. > > The index timing is different, according to some drive makers, albeit not VERY > > different. At least one mfg spec's the DS drives with 160 microsecond +/- 50 > > from the start of /Index to the data burst, while SS media are at 200. I've > > never given much thought to this and how it affects things, but I am not > > comfortable with the notion of switching, mechanically, between the two sensors. > > > > Dick > > Probably of little consequence, Dick, since his DSDD disks will not be > readable by anyone else unless the have performed the same modification > to a single-sided drive. > - don > Oops! Obviously, I meant and should have said "double-sided drive". - don From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 31 16:52:27 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address... In-Reply-To: <10108310011.ZM24298@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: > On Aug 30, 15:52, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I can't really put the SS1 to use yet since I haven't > > nailed down an sbus ethernet card for it. > > You don't need one -- there's an AUI connector on the back of the > motherboard. All you need is a transceiver. > Pete, I've got a transceiver for the onboard ethernet, but I need a second ethernet interface so I can use the system as a firewall. g. From root at diablonet.net Fri Aug 31 17:29:16 2001 From: root at diablonet.net (Netdiablo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: This week's finds Message-ID: <3B900F8C.EDDF9E63@diablonet.net> > I also found a DEC drawing tablet. Plugs into the DEC mini-DIN-6 mouse port. > Unfortunately it's got no pen or puck. There is no plug for the drawing > instrument, so I suppose it's some kind of magnetic device. Anyone know some > kind of replacement? The unit is called the VSXXX-AB. I've got one of these laying around too. As far as I can tell, they're pretty much a DEC-rebadged Summagraphics SummaSketch II tablet with the serial cable customized to allow it to be connected to a DEC mouse port. I guess these tablets were popular in the IBM world for CAD work, and maybe they worked with Macintosh systems as well? The one I've got has a four-button puck; I'm not sure if they were available with a stylus (probably not). Maybe this helps. --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 31 17:47:24 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Message-ID: <004401c13270$607aa1a0$1e789a8d@ajp166> From: Zane H. Healy >> >I am wondering what the power requirements of a fairly standard >> uVAX-II in a >> >BA123 case would be, what kind of hookup it needs, voltage and >> power requirements... >> >> About 700W (8.8A in the US, 4.4A in the UK). > >I could have sworn that it is a 600W powersupply. Of course that doesn't >mean that the system will pull that much. In any case, I've never had any >problems, and it's amazing I've never popped a breaker with mine, >considering how much other stuff I tend to have running. It's power needs are modest and that 4.4A @120VAC (USA) is under worst case conditions at maximum load. It's pretty difficult to configure a UVII to the max unless you have 4 rd54s, TK50 and Flooppy and even then your only "close". In any cas e power wise the box is an easy one to run at home and not too bad on heat output for modest configurations. Allison From vaxman at qwest.net Fri Aug 31 18:33:16 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: Two DEC LN03 toner / maintenance kits available In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010831133743.022e35f0@pc> Message-ID: I have a stack of these available if anyone wants (after John sells his pair, of course :) email if yur instrested... clint On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote: > > I picked up two each of the toner cart kit and the > user maintenance kits, at $2 each. They're available > at that cost plus shipping. New in box, unused. > > - John > > > From curt at atari-history.com Fri Aug 31 18:46:55 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: Atari Technical Archive References: <004401c13270$607aa1a0$1e789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000f01c13277$37903820$c2609040@syzygy2> Hi, A lot of people ask me if I have info on this or that and so forth on various Atari 8bit and 16/32bit computers as well as the home and arcade consoles, so a technical archive (still in its beginnings) is available to those looking for indepth knowledge on various components, chips and programming notes: http://www.atari-history.com/archives/techdocs.html Curt From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 31 19:05:08 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: Two DEC LN03 toner / maintenance kits available In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010831133743.022e35f0@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010831170420.03c36eb0@209.185.79.193> Yeah, what up with these? The local auction house just got two pallets of them in. I don't think they got any bids. Were they declared toxic or something? --Chuck At 05:33 PM 8/31/01 -0600, you wrote: >I have a stack of these available if anyone wants (after John sells >his pair, of course :) From vaxman at qwest.net Fri Aug 31 19:33:12 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: Two DEC LN03 toner / maintenance kits available In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010831170420.03c36eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: They don't fit HP laserjets, so nobody wants them anymore. I bought a pallet of stuff, and these were on it. I also have a LN03+ and a LN03 scriptprinter that I'll probably never power up again :) clint On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Yeah, what up with these? The local auction house just got two pallets of > them in. I don't think they got any bids. Were they declared toxic or > something? > --Chuck > > At 05:33 PM 8/31/01 -0600, you wrote: > > >I have a stack of these available if anyone wants (after John sells > >his pair, of course :) > > > > > > From red at bears.org Fri Aug 31 19:49:26 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: installing VMS Message-ID: Howdy; Thanks to Jeff Kaneko, who supplied the missing chassis parts, my VAXstation 4000/90 is all happy and ready to run. I had originally planned to install VMS 5.5-2 from a CD I'vfe had kicking around for ages (actually, from five years ago when I wanted to buy a VAXstation 3100 from Tim Shoppa), but booting the CD didn't seem successful. What do I need to do to install VMS on this machine? One of the drives in the 4000 has VMS 6.2 Standalone Backup installed, if it helps. The CD is labelled, "VMS V5.5-2 BIN CDROM Disc 1 of 1 October 1992". ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 31 19:52:55 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: Free Q-bus/Unibus boards, you pay shipping Message-ID: <010831205255.20600f02@trailing-edge.com> Free Q-bus/Unibus boards. No warranty, no docs, but I hope someone finds them interesting or useful, because otherwise they're going to be scrapped. You pay for shipping from East Coast USA (typically under $4 per board). DEC W943 dual-wide wire wrap board (16 pin DIP sockets) The two big PC boards from a DEC RX02 drive Excelan EXOS 204 (I think it's a Unibus Ethernet adapter.) National Instruments ASSY178009-01 (I think GPIB Q-bus adapter) M7687 DUP11-DA (two available) Plessey Microsystems P/N 701295-100H, I think a 128Kbyte Unibus memory board Emulex TC01 two board set (controller for Pertec formatted tapes) M4002 KWV11-C programmable real time clock (two available) Unknown maker, labeled "Menu/Tablet Interface", has two RCA CDP1854's and baud rate selectors. Quad-height, I think Unibus (but maybe Q-bus!) Datasystems DLP-1132 (I think this is the same as the Wespercorp Pertec unformatted controller, but no guarantees!) M7800 DL11 A M8081 (RLV12), which a decade ago I labeled "doesn't work". Probably still doesn't work, but I won't guarantee that! If interested, please E-mail me at "shoppa@trailing-edge.com" to reserve what you want and arrange shipping details. Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 31 20:01:17 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: More free Q-bus/Unibus boards, you pay shipping Message-ID: <010831210117.20600f02@trailing-edge.com> OK, more boards, same deal no guarantees, you pay shipping (typically under $4 per board): DEC M7168+M7169 pair (VCB02) DEC M8053 (DMV11). On board 6502, etc. Data Translation Inc P/N 06012, seemingly a DMA I/O board of some kind Digi-Data "82 QCI", I think a Q-bus pertec formatted controller DEC M7090, console module from a 11/44 Again, email me at "shoppa@trailing-edge.com" to reserve and set up shipping details. Tim. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Aug 31 20:27:52 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: HP2000 BASIC In-Reply-To: <002d01c132b4$74d4f4e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010831212752.006aa5cc@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:05 AM 9/1/01 -0500, Jay wrote: >WOOHOO! It's >all up 100% now. > >It will take me some time - weeks at least & maybe months to get around to >putting a FreeBSD machine on front of the system so people can telnet to the >HP2000 box across the internet. Congratulations! When you do set up the internet access, please tell me. I got initiated in computers with BASIC in an HP3000, back in 1979-80. I'd love to see what it was like in a 2000. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Aug 31 21:41:00 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies References: <3B8F9429.44D08685@idirect.com> <001701c1322b$06db4360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B904ABC.4F4F1A55@idirect.com> >Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, if the written spec's can be believed, you can't SEE the difference > between DD and SD media. That doesn't change the fact that they have different > spec's. Further, DS media are certified on BOTH sides, while the emulsion on > one side may be defective. Jerome Fine replies: Then some more information may be helpful. Note that since this is only my own experience, it might have been different for others if they had installed the same switch. However, since I believe that 8" floppies are no longer very popular, it is unlikely that this information will actually be put to the test. Over about 5 year from 1988 to 1993, I formatted about 900 SSDD diskettes from about a dozen manufactures as DSDD. They were my PRIMARY backup and I still have a number which I need to transfer to a hard disk drive. I seem to remember that ALL SSDD floppies that I attempted to format as DSDD floppies in the DSD 880/30 worked except for some from one particular manufacturer that were done in 1993. At the very end, I acquired (rescued from pile on the way to the dumptser - i.e. still inside the building in a normal environment, so storage conditions would NOT have caused a problem) a couple of dozen of DEC diskettes with software for RSX-11. (Sorry, back 8 years ago, I did not realize that they might have been worth something.) About half of the DEC diskettes would not format correctly. After the format operation was finished, I always did a READ check of every block. What was interesting was that when there was a problem, it was on the original side of the floppy and the so-called second side was OK. The other bit of information is that when these SSDD floppies were sometimes used again in a DEC RX02 drive, there was NEVER any problem with the original side - except of course with some of the DEC floppies. > It's true that DS media have their index hole located differently than SS media. > The index timing is different, according to some drive makers, albeit not VERY > different. At least one mfg spec's the DS drives with 160 microsecond +/- 50 > from the start of /Index to the data burst, while SS media are at 200. I've > never given much thought to this and how it affects things, but I am not > comfortable with the notion of switching, mechanically, between the two sensors. > Dick Since I had no specs, I just tried it. It worked. Not one floppy that was formatted as DSDD was unable to be used in a DEC RX02 drive. In addition, one some of the SSDD floppies (before I had installed the switch) I have punched a second set of holes in the DSDD index position. I initially covered up the SSDD index holes, but found that these same floppies worked without a problem in both the DSD 8" "dual" drive and a DEC RX02 drive. I never worked out the timing between the two index holes, but since they are about 1/2" apart, it should be trivial based on the number of revolutions per second. The distance from the centre of the floppy at that location is about 1 1/2" (from memory - it is probably between 1" and 2"). At 300 rpm or PIE * 3" * 6 per second = about 50" per second, I get a timing difference of 10 milliseconds. Since 1/10" is still about 2 milliseconds, I suspect that any timing requirements less than 1/2 milliseconds would be too difficult to meet. Of course, my calculations might be totally wrong. >As far as the comment from: Don Maslin >Probably of little consequence, Dick, since his DSDD disks will not be >readable by anyone else unless the have performed the same modification >to a single-sided drive. >Oops! Obviously, I meant and should have said "double-sided drive". As I mentioned above, the so-called first side could always be accessed via a single-sided DEC RX02 or any other single-sided drive. As for an unmodified double-sided drive, I have one on an SMS-1000 box that is very interesting. It uses 8" floppies and is also both single-sided and double-sided in operation in that it senses both index hole locations. However, it is VERY different in operation. FIRST, although it obviously uses the same interleave scheme as DEC, the emulation is MSCP, i.e. in RT-11 it uses the DEC DUX.SYS device driver. The first time I tried to boot RT-11, I was stumped. Finally it dawned on me. On the DSD 880/30, I did the command: COPY/BOOT:DU DY0:RT11XM.SYS DY0: with a SSDD floppy that had RT11XM.SYS and both the DYX.SYS and DUX.SYS device drivers. Worked just fine. SECOND, although the number of blocks is 988 in single sided-mode and 1976 in double-sided mode, in double-sided mode the second side is accessed right after the same track for the first side. Which means that since the DYX.SYS device driver on the DSD 880/30 accesses first all 988 blocks on one side and then all of the 988 blocks on the other side, the same DSDD floppy can't be used on both systems. If the 8" floppy is used to transfer any files in RT-11, I can use ONLY SSDD media after which I can write the contents of two SSDD floppies to one DSDD floppy from a temporary file since the SMS-1000 has only one 8" drive. All of the above is very much in the past over 10 years ago and I have probably not touched an 8" floppy in many years except to send some with TCP/IP to the UK. So, yes Tony, I do play with hardware to some extent, but only in direct relationship to a software need. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerome Fine" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:42 AM > Subject: Re: 8" Floppies > > > >Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > > > For those who asked, I need DSDD 8" Soft-Sectored Disks. > > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > > > I don't know if this will help, but here goes. > > > > I was using the DSD 880/30 - an RL02/RX02 compatible. It > > holds a single 8" floppy drive which can use both SSDD and DSDD > > diskettes (soft-sectored). I found that since I had a small number of > > DSDD diskettes and the media seemed to be identical, the ONLY > > difference that I could observe was that the index hole was in a > > different location. > > > > I wired a DPDT switch into the index hole detection circuit. In the left > > hand position, it was wired to duplicate the existing circuit. When I > > wanted to REVERSE the operation, I used the right hand position of > > the switch. In the second position, the index hole for a SSDD diskette > > caused the drive to route the signal from the sensor to the portion of > > the circuit which normally detected the signal from the DSDD index > > hole. Thus, the drive and the software "THOUGHT" that a DSDD > > media was present and I was able to use a SSDD diskette as a DSDD > > diskette without having to punch a second set of index holes. The > > use of a DSDD diskette as a SSDD diskette is also possible if that > > is useful - I never found it to be needed. > > > > Naturally, this required that I do a LLF (Low Level Format) on both > > sides of the diskette. This the DSD 888/30 is able to do all by itself > > and that solved the problem. As for using the DSDD diskette with > > DEC software, V4.00 of RT-11 had some code which showed how > > to access the "second" side and use the floppy drive as an RX03. > > I used that code as a starting point since I also wanted to allow the > > DYX.SYS device driver in a 22-bit environment with V5.03 of > > RT-11. Note that the DSD 880/30 and the DEC RX02 with an > > M8029 can use only the first 1/4 MByte (18 bit addresses) when > > a transfer is made to/from the DMA silo from/into a buffer in the > > memory of a PDP-11. Software in the DYX.SYS device driver > > is able to use all 4 MBytes of the PDP-11 physical address space > > in a manner totally transparent to the user of the device driver. > > > > I realize that Sridhar is not using RT-11, but I just thought I might > > mention the above for those of you that do. > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > Jerome Fine > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 31 22:28:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies References: Message-ID: <001d01c13296$343423c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, what I apparently missed is that the intent was to use both sides of a diskette in a single-sided drive, right? That is the only way that the direction would have been reversed. It seems to me that DEC did rotate the data in opposite directions in opposite sides on some models, didn't they? I've never tried to use a floppy on a DEC machine, so I plead ignorance. I'm not at all sure how any of this stuff would work out otherwise. Incidentally, for 8" media at least, (since there's little confusion about rotational rate and data rate) there's no reason why there has to be any difference between SD and DD media, since the flux reversal density is the same in FM as in MFM. The certification of the media for two-sided use, however, is important, since it's conceivable that one side of a SS diskette could have a contaminated emulsion, which would certainly be a defect disqualifiying it for the two-sided use. VERY old drives needed nearly 250 ns of precompensation, however, while newer ones needed between 125 and 180. I typically used a 6 MHz oscillator to time the precomp on 8" diskettes, and that worked out remarkably over a wide range of drives. Back in the '70s diskettes often were priced at nearly $10 each, and we often tried to save a buck or two by punching holes in the appropriate place in a SS diskette's jacket in order to make it work as DS. This worked better than half of the time. Punching the hole so the "other" side of a SS diskette could be used SS produced disappointing results too. Neither approach was useable for work paid for by others. I think that's because emulsions did get messed up from time to time, and weren't applied to both sides at the same time. Maybe that's not right, but there must have been some reason. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 3:32 PM Subject: Re: 8" Floppies > > > On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Well, if the written spec's can be believed, you can't SEE the difference > > > between DD and SD media. That doesn't change the fact that they have different > > > spec's. Further, DS media are certified on BOTH sides, while the emulsion on > > > one side may be defective. > > > > > > It's true that DS media have their index hole located differently than SS media. > > > The index timing is different, according to some drive makers, albeit not VERY > > > different. At least one mfg spec's the DS drives with 160 microsecond +/- 50 > > > from the start of /Index to the data burst, while SS media are at 200. I've > > > never given much thought to this and how it affects things, but I am not > > > comfortable with the notion of switching, mechanically, between the two sensors. > > > > > > Dick > > > > Probably of little consequence, Dick, since his DSDD disks will not be > > readable by anyone else unless the have performed the same modification > > to a single-sided drive. > > - don > > > Oops! Obviously, I meant and should have said "double-sided drive". > > - don > > > From dittman at dittman.net Fri Aug 31 22:33:31 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: installing VMS In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Aug 31, 2001 08:49:26 PM Message-ID: <200109010333.f813XVd03349@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Thanks to Jeff Kaneko, who supplied the missing chassis parts, my > VAXstation 4000/90 is all happy and ready to run. > > I had originally planned to install VMS 5.5-2 from a CD I'vfe had kicking > around for ages (actually, from five years ago when I wanted to buy a > VAXstation 3100 from Tim Shoppa), but booting the CD didn't seem > successful. > > What do I need to do to install VMS on this machine? One of the drives in > the 4000 has VMS 6.2 Standalone Backup installed, if it helps. > > The CD is labelled, "VMS V5.5-2 BIN CDROM Disc 1 of 1 October 1992". The minimum bootable version of VMS for the VAXstation 4000/90 is V5.5-2HW. I can't remember whether -2HW was the designation for the "pre-release" version of V5.5-2 that was distributed with systems or the first hardware support release of -2. I do know that -2H4 was a later hardware support release of -2. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 31 23:01:16 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> This is fantastic -- thanks for sharing. Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of ideas for using computer sounds to make music. I have a recording studio hung off my main non-classic box, so I can add this to my List of Unfinished Projects. Some useable sounds might be: (printers, of course) hard drive spinup & chatter crt charge & discharge floppy drive stepper motors ps fans cpu cooling fans cd drives (opening, closing, and spinning) scanner sounds tape drives ASR 33s PAC readers card readers So what did I miss (classic or non)? Glen 0/0 ---------- > From: James Carter > > i don't know whether this has been sent to the list before, but it > tickled me. most of the "performers" appear to be classic, so it is on > topic. > > http://www.sat.qc.ca/the_user/dotmatrix/en/intro.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 31 23:13:53 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Re: symphony for dot matrix printers (Glen Goodwin) References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <15248.24705.904963.402204@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 1, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of ideas for using computer > sounds to make music. I have a recording studio hung off my main > non-classic box, so I can add this to my List of Unfinished Projects. Some > useable sounds might be: > > (printers, of course) > hard drive spinup & chatter > crt charge & discharge > floppy drive stepper motors > ps fans > cpu cooling fans > cd drives (opening, closing, and spinning) > scanner sounds > tape drives > ASR 33s > PAC readers > card readers > > So what did I miss (classic or non)? There is the well-known software package for DEC's pdp8/e (and perhaps other -8 models) that makes quite reasonable music from a nearby AM radio, if memory serves the "interference" was generated by the core memory drivers...you took the chassis cover off, put an AM radio near the machine, ran the program, gave it a "song" file, and away it played. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From curt at atari-history.com Thu Aug 30 15:57:12 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <00b301c13196$5933ffc0$aab1ff0a@cvendel> Gene, Go from the headphones output on your stereo, cassette decks usually have their own and into the mic input on your PC sound card input. I've done this before with Atari 8bit software on cassettes and made .wav files which can then be burned to a CD-rom and hooked up to the audio lines on the SIO bus of the 8bits and using the same cload or run "C:" command you can load the software off of a cdrom. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. >